Introducing Rian Anderson and the Episode

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is July 23rd, 2024. I'm here with my partner, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:09] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:10] And we have a blockbuster interview for you today. Today we're going to be interviewing in our series of returned Mormon missionaries, We're going to be interviewing Ryan Anderson. Hey, Ryan. Hi. We're going to be covering all sorts of top serving a mission during COVID which we haven't really covered so far. That was its own thing. We're also going to be talking about mission presidents and, and trauma and dealing with a, you know, a family back home having a faith crisis and even leaving the church while you're on your mission. We've covered this before, but this is its own story in that regard. We're going to talk about mental health issues on the mission. We're going to be talking about having a faith crisis on the mission. And then we're going to be talking about coming home from a mission while your family's pretty much out of the church, but you're still apparently in the church and trying to navigate those waters. And then, of course, just the traditional rebuilding after your Mormon world falls apart. Those are some of the key themes that we're going to be talking about today. Did I miss any key things themes, Ryan?

Rian Anderson [00:01:27] I think that's spot on.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:29] You've lived, Ryan.

Rian Anderson [00:01:30] That's right.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:31] Already you've lived.

John Dehlin [00:01:33] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:01:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] And do you consider yourself Gen Z, Ryan, or.

Rian Anderson [00:01:37] I mean, yeah, I was born in 2000, so that's Gen Z. Yeah, I think Gen Z.

John Dehlin [00:01:40] So also Gen Z represent a little bit as well.

Rian Anderson [00:01:43] For sure.

John Dehlin [00:01:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] So, yeah, we're super excited to dig in. So before we begin, Ryan, we like to give people a chance to kind of state an intention about why they wanted to do the interview. So do you want to start there?

Growing Up Mormon and Family Dynamics

Rian Anderson [00:01:56] Sure, I'd love to. For me, coming out of my mission experience, informed consent was something that really lacked in my experience and caused a lot of confusion. And I would just say trauma, period.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] And when you say informed consent or the lack thereof in your case, you mean what?

Rian Anderson [00:02:19] Understanding what you're getting yourself into and whether it's something that's right for you

John Dehlin [00:02:25] or as a mission. As a Mormon or as a missionary.

Rian Anderson [00:02:27] As a missionary and a Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:02:29] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:02:29] I say both all around.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] Okay. But you don't feel like you were given the information you needed to be have a Mormon testimony or to go on a mission.

Rian Anderson [00:02:38] You're saying yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:39] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:02:39] Yeah. And I want People to have

Margi Dehlin [00:02:43] the

Rian Anderson [00:02:43] information to decide whether it's right for them or not, because I didn't get the opportunity.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] Okay, so. So in part, you want people considering a mission to have the. The benefit of your story to help them decide if a mission might be right for them or not.

Rian Anderson [00:02:58] For sure.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:02:59] Yep. Yeah. Yep, yep. So that's what it comes down to. That's really why I'm doing this. Okay. Perfect. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:06] All right. Well, thanks so much for coming all the way from Colorado or from Hawaii, depending on how we look at it.

Rian Anderson [00:03:11] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] Where. Where should your Mormon story begin?

Rian Anderson [00:03:16] I say when I'm just growing up, actually. Maybe my parents. So my mom's parents were converts to the church when she was really young. And then my dad was a convert in college after my parents met. So I was kind of growing up in the first generation of the church in my family, which we were very typical Mormon. We did fhe every week. We would attend church. We did all the things. We followed the commandments on Sundays. I remember, like, we weren't allowed to ride bikes or swim in the pool or watch anything besides church things, which ultimately made me form my value and what I held important in life to be the church. It led to just the church being at my core. Everything I was came from the church, and my testimony really solidified in the church. In high school, did either of your

John Dehlin [00:04:18] parents serve a mission?

Rian Anderson [00:04:19] No, I was the first in my extended family out of everyone to serve a mission.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:25] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:04:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:26] So, but your. But your parents, they did get married in the temple?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:30] They did.

Rian Anderson [00:04:31] They got sealed in the temple about, I think, a year and a half after they got, like, a civil ceremony.

John Dehlin [00:04:37] And were any kids born before they were sealed?

Rian Anderson [00:04:40] Nope. I was conceived before they were sealed, but born after.

John Dehlin [00:04:46] So you were born in the covenant?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:48] Yes. Yeah, just barely. He slid in there.

Rian Anderson [00:04:51] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:04:52] So you were the first member of your family to be born in the covenant?

Rian Anderson [00:04:55] Yeah, I guess so. Which is kind of crazy. I didn't think about that, but yeah. And then I'm the oldest of five.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:05:01] So it's me and then two brothers and then a sister, and then I have a younger sibling as well who's non binary.

John Dehlin [00:05:07] Okay. So sometimes, you know, us. Us pioneer stock Mormons would say, oh, converts, you know, they're not as faithful or stalwart, but sometimes. Sometimes converts dial it up to 11 because they want to do it. Right, Totally. Which were your parents?

Rian Anderson [00:05:25] Definitely dialed it up, like, all in. I think there's a lot of fear just in the world in general. But the church provides a remedy to that fear in a lot of ways. So it allowed them to just be all in, which resulted in all of us being all in. Well, I can speak for myself. I was all in.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:48] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:05:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:50] Like your dad served in leader. Both your parents served in pretty high level leadership. Right.

Rian Anderson [00:05:55] So when I left my mission, my dad was in the bishopric and my mom was in the stake young woman's presidency.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:06:03] But yeah, all growing up, my mom was a really steady president. My dad was an elders quorum. I mean, one of the first times I remember being angry with God was when my mom was in the really steady presidency and she was just gone all the time. And it resulted in me kind of taking this parental role over my siblings. And I just was so angry that God would take her away from me and such. It felt like an important time in my life when I just really wanted help. And I would say just attention, because five. I mean, there's five of us. So it's. Let alone the church taking my mom way into this position where she's gone a lot.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:49] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:06:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] So just when we're talking about those early years, let's just say childhood and pre adolescence. Do you remember those? Pretty happily. Both with the family, but with the church as well.

Rian Anderson [00:07:02] Totally. Yeah, I have. I feel very fortunate in the way, like, I felt happy and safe. I would say my parents were so good at just making us feel loved. Like, I never questioned whether or not I was loved, but I did. I was always kind of looked at as or and told that I was special. And I think that also comes with the church and just being told like, you're a chosen generation, like, you're. You're it for us and for God even. But then also just, I'm very just. I'm work driven and I love getting rewarded for succeeding in things.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:50] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:07:51] So I had that idea of just being special growing up.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:54] What. When you reflect back on that, the special.

Rian Anderson [00:07:57] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:58] What do you feel like? How did that change you or affect you, this idea of being special both with church and, you know, in your family or where you're hearing it at school?

Rian Anderson [00:08:10] Totally. I. I used to look back on my childhood and just say, like, I knew unconditional love, but I think with the church and with being called and felt. Feeling special or had this expectation put on me.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:28] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:08:31] I had something to prove. And in that love needed to be earned. Even though I was being told, like, no, whatever you do, you're gonna be. You're loved. And you're safe. But the church teachings coming in and being told I was special created this weird opposition with each other, and I held on to that expectation piece a lot and even still do. That's something I'm trying to work on, but, yeah, definitely impacted me.

John Dehlin [00:09:05] So kind of two. Two sides of the coin. Unconditional love, but also conditional love.

Rian Anderson [00:09:11] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:09:12] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:12] And you better hustle, Hustle for it.

Rian Anderson [00:09:14] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:15] Because you're special. So the expectations are special for you

Rian Anderson [00:09:19] too, and viewing it as unconditional love, but in reality, it was conditional love.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:24] Right.

John Dehlin [00:09:24] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:09:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:26] Wow. Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:09:27] Yeah.

Childhood Faith and Early Church Memories

John Dehlin [00:09:28] So as far as the church's role in your life, preteen, like, there's all those happy memories of primary and going to church, and I loved it. Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:09:38] I loved primary. I loved just the church atmosphere. Like I said, I love succeeding in things, and I was really. I was really good at doing what the church told me to do.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:51] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:09:53] And I. I loved learning about history. I loved the. Learning about the pioneers and, like, the William Martin handcart company. I was. I loved learning about that. Even now, stories. Yes. I just. I felt connection to history and to even my ancestors. I felt really connected to my mom's mom, who passed away when she was 16. I never met her, but I loved stories and connecting with people, and I felt like the church really allowed me to do that.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:26] Yeah. And to be clear, your childhood was in Colorado, right?

Rian Anderson [00:10:29] It was. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:30] You're growing up in Colorado.

Rian Anderson [00:10:32] Yeah. I was actually born in Tacoma, Washington, and then when I was eight years old, we moved to Colorado. So really, my whole memory is in Colorado, for sure. In the Denver area.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:44] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:10:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:45] Great.

John Dehlin [00:10:46] So, Nyerelle, and you mentioned your testimony kind of coming on kind of in high school.

Rian Anderson [00:10:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:51] Do you want to talk about the formation development of your Mormon testimony?

Rian Anderson [00:10:54] Yeah, I'd love to. In middle school. I had a really difficult time in middle school. Like I said, all my decisions were made with the church in mind and what I was being told was right and wrong. So I left friend groups that I really valued and were really meaningful for me because they weren't doing what the church was telling me was right. Like, talking about things, swearing, drinking coffee, like these little things. But they felt big as someone growing up in the church. Um, and that resulted in me experiencing a lot of loneliness, but for God, like, for the church, I felt like I was doing the right thing. And then in high school, that loneliness took on a whole other level. It was, like, overwhelming, where I was, like, sitting alone at lunch, and I was seeing all these other teenagers doing these things that I wanted to be doing, but I was doing what was right in my mind, what the church was telling me to do.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:06] Interesting. Yeah. So are you saying in a way, it emboldened you to kind of filter your experience and have these standards that you're trying to live and then also the result, though, is kind of painful.

Rian Anderson [00:12:20] Totally.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:20] That your experience then is that you're feeling more isolated, you're feeling more lonely.

Rian Anderson [00:12:25] Yeah. And it's that that quote comes to mind of, like, be in the world, not of the world. And I held on to that so deeply.

John Dehlin [00:12:32] What types of things?

Rian Anderson [00:12:34] I mean, I wasn't allowed to watch, like, a PG13 movie until I was, like, in high school.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] So friends are talking about fun.

Rian Anderson [00:12:44] Like, I mean, even just like, Twilight or like, the Hunger Games. And I wasn't allowed to, like, watch those. And it felt uncomfortable because, like, even just anything sexual was, like, so off the table because it was just hounded so bad. So, I mean, obviously no coffee. I never swore. Like, even. I remember in high school, like, having Bishop's interviews and being like, my Bishop. Like, okay, well then, like, what? Like, do you swear at all? And I'm like, no. I don't even like to say, like, shut up or stupid. Like, I was so in.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:23] It's almost like if there was a standard here, you'd live it here.

Rian Anderson [00:13:26] Exactly, Exactly. I have very much perfectionist tendencies. And it's that expectation piece, too, where it's like, I want people to still think I'm special and, like, I want to keep receiving confidence, like compliments that I'm doing amazing.

John Dehlin [00:13:47] Sometimes I call that the Nephi complex. You want to be Nephi?

Rian Anderson [00:13:51] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:13:51] Did you identify with Nephi at all?

Rian Anderson [00:13:53] For sure. For sure. I would like to think I did. I don't think I thought that, but that was my goal. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] To be the noble child.

Rian Anderson [00:14:03] Exactly. And as the oldest daughter, there's also an expectation there. It's just inherently there.

High School, Modesty, and Loneliness in the Church

Margi Dehlin [00:14:10] So I have a question around that, too. You've kind of talked about living, you know, this higher. If there's a standard that you kind of go above and beyond to even, you know, that excellence, that perfection, especially I'm hearing it at least in social. Like, social with friends or with movies or with. Did it translate into duress or scriptures or, like, the personal. The more personal things, too.

Rian Anderson [00:14:39] Yeah. It's interesting. Modesty wasn't a huge thing for me. My meaning. What, like modesty or My mom would always tell me, like, just wear whatever you want. Like, if you're happy with it and you feel good, then go for it. Which was one piece of the doctrine where I was like, okay, I can be light on this. So I would wear tank tops. And I mean, I remember going to girls camp, and they told us, like, no shorts one year, but my mom was like, it's Wyoming, and it's so hot. It's the middle of summer. You're gonna wear shorts.

John Dehlin [00:15:11] And they were like, maybe that's the difference between Mormonism in Utah and outside of Utah. Maybe outside of Utah, it's a little less strict about things like that.

Rian Anderson [00:15:19] Yeah, maybe I could see that for sure. But yeah. And then I got called out. I got. The state government's president was like, you have to go back to your tent and change. And that was, like, such a big moment for me. I was like, oh, my God.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] Oh.

Rian Anderson [00:15:32] Because you wore shorts at camp, and they were like, they covered my knee. You wore long shorts.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:38] The long.

Rian Anderson [00:15:39] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] And it's hot, right?

Rian Anderson [00:15:40] And it's hot.

John Dehlin [00:15:41] Yeah. Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:15:41] And she called me out in front of me, my Holy Gilman's group. So it's just that shaming peace and that fear of getting in trouble, that was a big part for me. But going back to, like, the scriptures and the personal things, I loved reading the scriptures. Like, I loved the Book of Mormon. I read it every day. I think I started that in middle school, and I tried my best to just hold on to it. It felt very comforting to me. And I really love journaling. Like, I think President Eyring gave a talk way back about keeping a journal for, like, your ancestors, like, your future generations. And I held onto that very strongly. And I have, like, I have many journals from the time I was 10 years old to now. I still love journaling, but. But they were written in the way I was writing to, like, my future children. So posterity. Yeah, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:43] And a bit of a filter, because if you're thinking of the audience to which you're writing.

Rian Anderson [00:16:47] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:48] It's. Its function is different.

Rian Anderson [00:16:50] Yes, totally. So I would say those are the two main things. I really struggled with prayer, which is kind of interesting.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] But meaning what? Why did you struggle with prayer?

Rian Anderson [00:17:02] I didn't do it often and mostly was, like, if I was struggling in the moment, I would pray, which I felt guilty about because I knew that was a huge thing.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] Was there any part of you that just didn't pray as much because you didn't feel like you got answers, or was there some other reason?

Rian Anderson [00:17:17] I mean, thinking about probably I found more comfort from reading the scriptures and, like, visibly seeing and hearing what God was telling us.

John Dehlin [00:17:29] Is there a part or two in the Book of Mormon that really were strong for you? A story or a character that really.

Rian Anderson [00:17:35] Oh, I'm trying to think.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] No pressure.

Rian Anderson [00:17:37] I mean, I loved Nephi. It's been a while. I loved Mosiah. I remember really loving, like, King Benjamin's talk about. He was. It feels very, like, progressive and, like, free thinking and comforting and just the way, like, God knows best. Like, just turn it to him and it'll be okay. Like, just keep following and you're loved and.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:01] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:18:02] Yeah. So I'd say probably new. Fine, Mosiah. Probably my favorite books.

John Dehlin [00:18:06] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:07] Okay. So in your high school years as a Mormon kid, again, was there conflict? Was there drama? Was there tension? Was it all goodness?

Rian Anderson [00:18:18] Yeah, I really struggled in high school in Denver. There's not as many members in the church, so in my youth group and especially in my young women's classes, I was often left out. And, I mean, I would hear about, like, parties going on, and, no, I wasn't invited to that. And I wasn't the only one. There were other young women who also weren't invited. But there was definitely, like, a main clique, and if you weren't part of the clique, like, you're not doing cool things.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:53] Got it.

Rian Anderson [00:18:54] And I also had that kind of perfectionist piece where I was just holding onto the church so much that was just hoping things would get better, but they never did, which turned me to gaining a really strong testimony around the atonement of Jesus Christ. And that happened my freshman year of high school in seminary. I had a really amazing seminary teacher. He was a really good family friend growing up. He's just a really great teacher. He makes the scriptures, like, come alive. But we were studying the Doctrine and Covenants, and he was talking about how he gained his testimony of, like, Joseph Smith in his freshman year of high school. And I was like, maybe it's time that I really, like, solidify my testimony and, like, really dedicate myself to the church, even though I already was. But in your mind, it's. It's a constant rededication. But I remember reading in the New Testament about Jesus Christ and his atonement and finding so much comfort in that idea that Jesus Christ took on everything for everyone. He experienced everything. I think that scripture in Alma, like Alma 7, 11, and 12 or something, about how Jesus Christ experienced every burden, every pain, every injury, all the things you could possibly imagine, like, he Understands. So it was like a built in friend for me. That's how he viewed it because I was lacking in friendships. So I held onto that so deeply. And it became a part of me that pushed all questions aside. All questions just went away because Jesus Christ knew how I was feeling.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:50] That's so powerful, you know, because what I'm hearing is loneliness also excluded, which I think is another layer. Right?

Rian Anderson [00:21:00] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:00] And then this. This person, the Savior, who actually, he knows you, he suffered by suffering and knowing in advance. Right. The idea of knowing who you are and suffering for sins for you in advance, you have this sense of someone knows you, someone cares about you.

Rian Anderson [00:21:22] Totally.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:22] Someone sees you.

Rian Anderson [00:21:23] Totally. Yeah, it was. It was a huge moment for me also.

John Dehlin [00:21:28] You know, we often talk about this in terms of shame, how the. How religion will tell you a behavior is bad.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:36] Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:36] And then offer itself up as the cure for the sin. In this case, it seems like the church made you more isolated. This is what I'm hearing. You say that the church made you feel more lonely, made you feel more isolated, and then offer Jesus as the way to make you feel better for your isolation. I'm not trying to put those.

Rian Anderson [00:21:56] No, that resonates really deeply with me. So I wasn't sinning. I never really felt like I was sinning, but I just had these big emotions of loneliness, of fear of like, wanting to have friendships that I was seeing other people have, and that wasn't there. So Jesus, like I said, was that person.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] Yeah, for me, but. And you mentioned not doubting, but then you also mentioned having some doubts. Yeah, for a few reasons. Do you want to talk about the doubts that emerged in high school?

First Doubts and BYU Idaho Purity Culture

Rian Anderson [00:22:30] Totally. I grew up always saying, like, I would never go to BYU school. I was kind of just that person who like, wanted individuality within the church. But also I was just such. So in depth in the church and following all the rules. But I started having questions when I heard about polygamy being a thing. And I had no idea, like, how deep it went. But I was like, that just feels wrong to me and like, demeaning as a girl and a woman, like, that's not something I want. And why would God do that? And why would, like, Brigham Young do that? And I had no idea that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy at all at that point. But just the whispering of that idea was really hurtful. And also just the fact, like, all these promised blessings were being promised to me, but I wasn't experiencing any of them. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:32] What do you mean?

Rian Anderson [00:23:33] I just like having Connection and being more in tune with yourself and God and like I wasn't feeling anything, you know.

John Dehlin [00:23:48] So it's the plan of happiness.

Rian Anderson [00:23:49] Totally.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:51] I'm really not feeling so happy.

John Dehlin [00:23:53] Is that what you mean?

Rian Anderson [00:23:53] Yeah, I'm not really experiencing. Yeah. That happiness that's promised, you know, and obviously I. I'm a very positive person, so I view that time with positivity, but I know I wasn't happy necessarily, so it was just this weird time.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:16] So.

Rian Anderson [00:24:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:18] Were you aware at the time of that disconnect or is this reflection like were you aware as you're living this next level Mormon ness? Right. Yeah, that like, oh wait, and I'm feeling like isolated and kind of sad and hard on myself and all these things. Were you aware of that tension at the time?

Rian Anderson [00:24:41] I was aware, but I wouldn't call it attention. I would just say like I held both things at once.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:49] You noticed it?

Rian Anderson [00:24:50] I noticed it, but didn't realize it was a big deal. And my parents were always so good about letting me bring up questions and being like, oh yeah, that's totally understandable, like let's talk about that more or so. These discussions when questions did come up were open and like always turned back to like God being the answer and he just knows best.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] What were the. What were your parents response to the polygamy problem?

Rian Anderson [00:25:17] I don't think I brought that one up to them until later. I first wrote down faith crisis in my journal after I went to the temple for the first time.

John Dehlin [00:25:29] Okay. And that's when you're getting ready for your mission?

Rian Anderson [00:25:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:31] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:31] So yeah, I have a question just around. So you've described your family kind of culture a little bit. It did all like the family culture, did all the Mormon things. Family, home, evening, you know, going to church and having the Sabbath, having a kind of. And then you're also mentioning those. Some open conversations. Would you take a minute and maybe just describe your family culture a little bit, how it felt for you in those years growing up through high school?

Rian Anderson [00:26:03] Totally. Like I said, my family were so good at making me feel loved like, and supported in anything I was dealing with or what I brought up to them. I just felt loved. But with that was this interesting separation of church comes first and family comes second. But also my parents saying family comes first, church comes second.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:33] Lived reality versus.

Rian Anderson [00:26:36] And the lived reality part was definitely church came first before family. So even though I was being told like family comes first, it wasn't. Didn't feel that way. And I don't think I realized that at the time, but meaning your parents.

John Dehlin [00:26:52] It felt like your parents sometimes were putting the church before family for sure.

Rian Anderson [00:26:55] And I think that came with callings and being in leadership and how much time that consumes. And that left me in the position of babysitting my siblings very young and coming to this, like, parental role that made me grow up really quick while also being very naive because of not being part of normal social, teenager, preteen things.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:21] Yes.

Rian Anderson [00:27:22] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:23] Which then likely supports further isolation because you're doing. You're at home doing.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] Do you want to be a mom, basically?

Margi Dehlin [00:27:31] That's right. Do you want to talk about that role of kind of what it means to be the oldest daughter and some of those things and how it kind of, let's just say, influenced your identity

Rian Anderson [00:27:44] totally during that time? Yeah. I'm three years older than my brother right below me, and then the four younger siblings are all fairly close together in age, like a year and a half to two years. So I definitely have the biggest gap in age, which that alone put me into that kind of mother role. But it felt. I felt very close to my siblings. Like, it created this attachment to them that probably wasn't the healthiest. But you just love them so deeply and you care for them, so it's like you just don't want anything bad to happen to them. I remember just, like, fearing for. First of all, I just looked up to my parents so much, but also, I just loved my siblings so deeply.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:35] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:28:35] And just. Yeah, yeah. That was a big part for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:43] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:28:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:45] Okay. And then speaking of family, you mentioned one of your siblings also contributing to some questions. Right?

Rian Anderson [00:28:51] Yeah. So after high school, I ended up going to BYU Idaho. I really wanted to go to BYU Provo just because it felt more progressive. And at the time, I understood that my family was more progressive in our ideas, not in the way we were living, but in ideas. So I didn't get into BYU Provo, but I ended up then defaulting to BYU Idaho. And while I was at BYU Idaho, one of the. My brother right below me came out as being gay. And that brought up a lot of questioning because I love my brother deeply. And I didn't understand why the church would have teachings against being gay. And I hated the Love the sin, love the sinner, hate the sin. I hated that. And there, especially at BYU Idaho, we would have church lessons on the lgbtq. Yeah. The plus community.

John Dehlin [00:29:55] And what would BYU Idaho have to say about gay people?

Rian Anderson [00:29:59] The love the sin or hate the sin kind of thing. Like, okay, you can be part of the church, but you can never get married. You can never live your true authentic self. And that felt wrong to me. That was different than what I felt God was to me or even I at that time. I started really holding on to the idea of heavenly parents, the fact that there's a heavenly mother and a heavenly father. So I would definitely use the wording of like heavenly parents at that time. And that felt wrong that they would do that. Like, why would unconditionally loving parents say that their child can't live authentically?

Margi Dehlin [00:30:40] Right.

Rian Anderson [00:30:41] And that felt so wrong to me. And it never brought up those good feelings that like Jesus brought out in me.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:48] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:30:49] So, yeah, I just doubts started coming up around that. And then learning more about polygamy at byu Idaho. Yeah. Just like, it's interesting you have conversations with people surrounding these things, but it's very much like, well, God just knows best. Like, you don't really talk deeply about it or like really learn the history. You more just are like, well, God will figure it out. Like, but that's where I learned that, like in heaven that we still believe that like men would practice polygamy.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:24] Interesting.

Rian Anderson [00:31:26] I'd be right.

John Dehlin [00:31:26] A ho.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:27] So there's like acknowledgement of history and then a dismissive.

Rian Anderson [00:31:32] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:33] Dismissive statements. Or always dismissive that are designed to have people feel things. Faithful.

Rian Anderson [00:31:39] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:40] If they exercise that.

John Dehlin [00:31:42] But also it's, it's. It's training you to go against your intuition.

Rian Anderson [00:31:45] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:31:46] Because you're. Because, because your intuition saying polygamy bad. Church saying God knows best. Your intuition saying, my brother should love who he wants to love. Church is saying same sex, love is bad. So you're. Seems like you're being conditioned to ignore your instincts and feelings, your inner self, basically.

Rian Anderson [00:32:06] Totally. Yeah. It's like tearing from yourself. That disconnect is just becoming bigger and bigger and bigger during that time. For sure.

John Dehlin [00:32:14] You mentioned purity culture is also a crack. Can you talk about what that meant? What do you meant by purity culture and why it was a problem?

Rian Anderson [00:32:20] Totally. In Colorado, like I said, there aren't as many members. And we always kind of had the view of like Utah and Idaho being like too Mormon. Like the weird type of Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:32] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:32:32] So entering that community after having never ever been in that type of environment was so eye opening and.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] You mean Rexburg.

Rian Anderson [00:32:44] Oh, yeah. Rexburg. Yeah. Rexburg.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] Is that what you mean?

Rian Anderson [00:32:47] Yes, Rexburg for sure.

John Dehlin [00:32:48] What was eye opening?

Rian Anderson [00:32:51] How men treated women, I would say I got ghosted so many times. Got just from like trying to go on dates, and then, like, they just stop talking to you and, like, then they're going out with so another girl, like, the next week, and you're like, this is so confusing. Or like, you have a date and then they're like, oh, I gotta go meet this other girl. And you're like, what? Like, that's not like, what I thought was right or thought was right and felt right. I also got, like, stood up several times where I'd show up at, like, the place where you were supposed to have a date, and then they just would never show up. So it's like this lack of caring about the individual and more about the experience of finding someone to marry. Does that make sense?

Margi Dehlin [00:33:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] Like, everyone's on the plan and they're just trying to find the person to fit the slot in their plan.

Rian Anderson [00:33:45] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:33:46] So you felt kind of dehumanized.

Rian Anderson [00:33:48] Totally. Yeah. But I also had a part where I loved my teachers. My teachers were amazing. I was studying nursing. I've always loved helping people, and nursing has just been something I've wanted to do since I was in middle school. So my teachers in the medical field were just amazing and so progressive and, like, eye opening. I was like, oh, my gosh, I fit in. It gave this. This element in my mind that this was the right thing for me and right place for me to be because these teachers were just allowing me to express what I wanted to express and were agreeing with me, which was huge. Because my peers were not.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:37] Okay. Peers. Still not.

Rian Anderson [00:34:38] No. But teachers. But teachers were. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:42] Anything else about Rexburg, BYU Idaho purity culture? Because you talked about feeling like a number. What about. What else about purity culture in BYU Idaho? Just. Is it modesty? Is it.

Rian Anderson [00:34:55] I mean, modest?

Margi Dehlin [00:34:56] For sure.

Rian Anderson [00:34:57] I had a bit. I was totally. I was so against the honor code.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:00] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:35:01] That's one reason I didn't want to go there.

John Dehlin [00:35:03] What's wrong with the honor code?

Rian Anderson [00:35:04] It just. What is it wrong with the honor

John Dehlin [00:35:08] code for never Mormons that are.

Rian Anderson [00:35:10] No, totally. So they restrict what you can wear. You can't wear sandals. Like, I couldn't be wearing Birkenstocks. I couldn't wear capris. Any jeans with holes in them?

John Dehlin [00:35:19] What's wrong with capris?

Rian Anderson [00:35:20] Yeah, exactly. That's my question, too. Showing those ankles. Showing those ankles.

John Dehlin [00:35:25] Wait, literally by Wydo forbids capris.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:28] Yeah, capris. You have to wear full length.

Rian Anderson [00:35:30] Full length pants.

John Dehlin [00:35:31] What the.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:32] Interesting.

Rian Anderson [00:35:32] Wow. No holes in your pants.

John Dehlin [00:35:36] Shorts.

Rian Anderson [00:35:37] No shorts. Unless you're, like, working out and they're, like, designated Workout pants, like knee shorts. Knee shorts?

John Dehlin [00:35:44] Yeah, basically guys shorts that go down your knees.

Rian Anderson [00:35:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:35:47] That's the only type of shorts which

Margi Dehlin [00:35:48] can be very hard to find.

Rian Anderson [00:35:50] Yes. By the way. Well, they sell them at the bookstore, so they also, if you're attending the gym at Rexburg, you can only wear their designated BYU Idaho T shirt that they sell.

John Dehlin [00:36:04] Yeah. That's so like 1970s.

Rian Anderson [00:36:06] Totally. When I was. I went. I attended in 2018 to up to my mission. So about 2020. So about two years.

John Dehlin [00:36:13] Okay. Then shoulder bad.

Rian Anderson [00:36:15] Shoulders. Very bad. No multiple piercings. Men can't have beards.

John Dehlin [00:36:21] What about haircuts?

Rian Anderson [00:36:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:23] What about. I. I've heard something about your purse strap can't go around, you know, like,

Rian Anderson [00:36:30] because it makes your split crossover or something.

John Dehlin [00:36:35] Did you not experience that?

Rian Anderson [00:36:37] I didn't experience that. I didn't hear about that one.

John Dehlin [00:36:39] What about yoga pants?

Rian Anderson [00:36:39] Oh, yeah. You can only wear black leggings if you're gonna wear yoga pants. Only black leggings.

John Dehlin [00:36:45] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:36:45] So like, no colors or like any. It had to be solid black.

John Dehlin [00:36:51] So no stripes on the side.

Rian Anderson [00:36:52] No. Or like mesh. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:55] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:36:56] And that's for. If you're attending the gym on the campus, which everyone does, because that's Rexburg's. Very small.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:37:03] Not much to do.

John Dehlin [00:37:03] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:37:04] Oh, so.

John Dehlin [00:37:05] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:37:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:06] And then anything about sex or sexuality, either high school or BYU Idaho.

Rian Anderson [00:37:12] Totally. Sexuality was very cut off for me. Like, I didn't really have the opportunity to even explore that at all. I didn't date anyone until after my mission, so it wasn't a big part of my life. It just felt very shameful. Like I was afraid of that for sure. It was a big fear.

John Dehlin [00:37:34] So people talk. I guess I was asking also just how it's talked about.

Rian Anderson [00:37:37] Oh, totally. I mean, everyone just feels like an object rather than a person.

John Dehlin [00:37:45] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:37:45] When you're talking about them in the way, like, you're just trying to get married. That's just what it felt like. And that's. That's something I didn't want for my life. I was like, I want. I'm work oriented. I want to work. I don't even know if I want to be a mom. Like. And that did not work with what my peers were discussing or wanting in their life.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] There's another discrepancy between you and what the church is teaching.

Rian Anderson [00:38:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:38:12] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:38:12] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:12] But I also don't want to skip over the fact that you just mentioned that your sexual self. You were completely. You feared it and you disconnected from it early.

Rian Anderson [00:38:24] Yeah. It wasn't a part of my life. I'd say more. It was just fear.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:30] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:38:31] Julie's asking about skinny jeans.

Rian Anderson [00:38:34] No ski. Well, actually, I think skinny jeans were allowed. Just no holes.

John Dehlin [00:38:37] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:38:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:38] And you were there around what year?

Rian Anderson [00:38:40] I started in 2018. Fall of 2018. Yep. To 2020.

John Dehlin [00:38:43] So that's six years ago.

Rian Anderson [00:38:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] Okay. Okay. To four years ago.

Rian Anderson [00:38:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:38:50] Yeah. Four years ago. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:52] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:38:52] It's just crazy. It feels like a whole different time.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:54] I bet

John Dehlin [00:38:57] now this would have been the time where it was normal for Mormon young women to serve missions. So at some point, after a year at byu, Idaho, how did the mission come into play for you?

Deciding to Serve a Mission

Rian Anderson [00:39:08] Well, I never wanted to serve a mission because my family had. There was no experience of missionary work in my family. And I wanted to work. I wanted to become a nurse, and that felt like my missionary work work.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:22] Right.

Rian Anderson [00:39:22] But school, I was not liking school, and it was. Nursing is just very difficult and exhausting. So I wanted to take a break. And I knew I wanted to help people, and I knew I wanted to travel. So I started out by looking into, like, volunteer trips online, where you could choose where you want to go. There's no religion involved, and you can spend as much time as you want.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:49] Love it.

Rian Anderson [00:39:49] Right. Because I just. I wanted people to feel loved.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:52] Yes.

Rian Anderson [00:39:54] Like, as who they were. Like, they wanted them to experience unconditional love. And at By Idaho, you hear so much about the mission. It feels like everyone has served a mission, and that's not how it is, but it feels that way.

John Dehlin [00:40:12] Was it the whole culture of, like, getting your call and bringing everyone together to excitement?

Rian Anderson [00:40:18] Yeah, getting everyone. It just felt like the recognition that I wanted for, like, it was an indicator of success as a missionary, as a. As a member of the church.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:31] And did it lure you a little bit too? Because it's a way to go above and beyond again, that expectation or standard.

Rian Anderson [00:40:38] Totally.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:38] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:40:39] And I was like, God knows I want to go out of the country, so he's gonna take me out of the country, and he's gonna make me, like, help me learn a new language and experience this thing I want to experience. Cause he knows me.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:51] Right.

Rian Anderson [00:40:53] And at that time, they came out with sister missionaries can wear pants, and I'm such a pants girl. So I was like, okay, I can do that. That seals the deal for me. That's right. And I think a little bit before then, they release, like, you can talk to your family every week. And if that wasn't a thing, I would not have gone.

John Dehlin [00:41:15] Yeah. Cause before, you could only call home twice a year. When I was on a mission, I called home Mother's Day and Christmas, which is insane.

Rian Anderson [00:41:23] Like, that was out of the question. So when they changed that, it was like, okay, I can do this.

John Dehlin [00:41:27] They literally changed that because we made such a stink about it, saying missions are cult like, and they finally listened. So.

Rian Anderson [00:41:33] That's amazing.

John Dehlin [00:41:34] I'm going to share in a tiny bit of credit for that.

Rian Anderson [00:41:37] You should.

John Dehlin [00:41:37] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:41:38] That's amazing.

John Dehlin [00:41:38] Yeah. We're having. We had. We brought missionaries on Mormon stories that were like, they'd go through hurricanes, you know, in Houston or whatever, and they couldn't call home. You know what I mean? Like, their parents were like, are you okay? And like, nope, can't call home.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:51] Wait till Christmas.

John Dehlin [00:41:52] People die. No, you can't go home. Can't call home. You know, anyway, it's wild. Okay. And were your parents. Did they make you feel like they wanted you to serve a mission at all?

Rian Anderson [00:42:03] They were very much like, do whatever feels right for you.

John Dehlin [00:42:06] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:42:07] That's always how they've been. So it was more my decision of that. Wanting to be looked at as a successful.

John Dehlin [00:42:15] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:16] So, like, social pressure.

Rian Anderson [00:42:18] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:18] And your internal drive either for recognition and also to be excellent, to be perfect, or do all the things.

Rian Anderson [00:42:26] Yeah. And it felt easy because it was, like, on my mission, I explained coming out on a mission. Like, it just happened to me. Like, obviously, I made active decisions, but it felt like such a blur. Like, it was like, okay, I'm meeting with the bishop, filling out the paper, getting my call. Like, you're Just felt like it was happening.

John Dehlin [00:42:47] It's like a factory there.

Rian Anderson [00:42:48] Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [00:42:49] Would your bishop there have wanted to encourage as many of the people in his ward to serve missions as possible? Would the wards have been set up to feed people into that factory?

Rian Anderson [00:42:59] Totally. Well, I. I think most bishops in Rexburg, but I actually went home to Colorado after it was in the summer, and that I filled it out, the paperwork with my home bishop.

John Dehlin [00:43:12] Okay. Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:43:12] So he knew me well, obviously. I'd been in that ward for, like, my whole growing up. Okay, so.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] And what was your testimony like right before you went on your mission? Super strong rehab.

Rian Anderson [00:43:25] And it was a tough time. It was like more and more questions started coming up with my brother being lgbtq.

John Dehlin [00:43:32] Did he want to leave the church or did he wanted to stay?

Rian Anderson [00:43:36] He loved the church.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:43:37] But I loved my siblings so deeply. That was like, this organization is hurting him.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:45] That role of caretaker, too, I think, plays into that Sometimes when you're placed in a role as, you know, an adult figure in the home, taking care of. I do think. Do you feel like it. It allowed you insight into, like, a mom where you're like, I care for him, I know him, I want what's best for him. And even protectiveness.

Rian Anderson [00:44:08] Totally.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:09] Yes.

Rian Anderson [00:44:10] I mean, that feel that just resonates with my experience, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:14] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:44:14] Feels spot on, but.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:17] So even though he was still wanting to stay faithful as a gay teenager, that was causing you right before your mission to question things.

Rian Anderson [00:44:26] Yes. And then also, like, polygamy kept getting brought up, and that just felt so wrong to me. And I didn't like the atmosphere at byu Idaho. So it was like all these things were, like, just building up and the tension became higher and higher, and then it was time to go through the temple. And that was.

John Dehlin [00:44:48] Was that before your call or after?

Rian Anderson [00:44:49] That was after my call, so. Oh, yeah. So my call. I really wanted to go out of the country, but I was nervous that I wouldn't. So I didn't invite any friends. It was just my. I flew home. It was just with my immediate family. I think my grandma was over video call or something. And I opened it up and it said Newport Beach, California. And I was so disappointed. And I was trying not to be disappointed, but I was like, why in the world do I go to California? I mean, my family reunions were in California. Like, I knew California, and I wanted to explain, like, explore somewhere new, because that was. I was going.

John Dehlin [00:45:38] Did you have a country you were hoping for most?

Rian Anderson [00:45:41] I mean, I really wanted to go to, like, Switzerland or like, even just South America. I was like, literally anywhere outside the United States, I'll go.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] At least it wasn't Idaho or Wyoming.

Rian Anderson [00:45:51] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:45:52] No offense, Idaho or Nebraska.

Rian Anderson [00:45:56] True that, though. But I did have a really freshman year seminary teacher. His family had moved to that mission, so he was living there. So that was kind of like a really cool thing. It was like, oh, I'll have someone that I know in that mission, so maybe I'll get to, like, serving his ward and like.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:17] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:46:18] And I loved his girls. I babysat their girls for all of my younger men years.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:23] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:46:23] So it just felt cool.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:25] I'm curious in that moment where you had your call and you had that initial letdown experience of, like, I'm curious, your thought process, did you recondition yourself? Like, do the. You know, because we're taught in Mormonism, this idea of, like, if you have a negative feeling over what's been given to you from God. It's like, okay, well, he knows me. And so clearly I know this or this is a challenge, and I meant to go there or whatever it is. But I'd be curious. Your thought process, from disappointment to if you kind of got yourself back on the program successfully thinking the way you should, or if it remained a sticky point, if it was hard for you actually to get back to the conditioned response.

Rian Anderson [00:47:12] I definitely was pretty quick to get back to the conditioned response. I mean, I had read the talks where the leaders of the church discuss how they choose missions for people and how they assign, like, through such great prayer and, like, study and, like, through God. So I was like, yeah, of course. This is where he needs me to go. The people there need me.

John Dehlin [00:47:36] Yeah. Like, the truth is they're assigning thousands a week or whatever.

Rian Anderson [00:47:40] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:47:41] But they. But they want to make it sound like the apostles there. And like, somehow it's computer assigning thousands, but somehow he's still feeling you're talking to God and making it a personal choice. So we want. We are led to believe that God is literally, you know, putting you in that position. Now, is Newport Beach. Is that Orange County?

Rian Anderson [00:48:03] It is, yep. So it covers, like, just below Long beach to just above San Diego.

John Dehlin [00:48:09] And my understanding is it's pretty heavily Mormon. Like, a lot of wealthy, influential Mormons are. There's a temple there, right?

Rian Anderson [00:48:15] Yes, Newport Beach Temple. I mean, it's stunning. It was so fun to be in, like, all these fancy houses, which I'd, like, never thought of ever witnessing. And it was just fun because there is a huge Mormon culture and they tend to be pretty progressive.

John Dehlin [00:48:32] Oh.

Rian Anderson [00:48:33] Like, it feels like it felt that way.

John Dehlin [00:48:36] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:48:36] Yeah.

Temple Endowment Before the Mission

John Dehlin [00:48:38] So you want to talk about your temple experience?

Rian Anderson [00:48:40] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:48:40] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:48:43] I went into it really excited because these people I looked up to, my grandparents, my parents, my young woman's teachers, bishops, like, all these people that I really looked up to valued the temple so greatly. And from, like, the youngest age, you're taught, like, this is the epitome of your existence here on Earth is going to the temple. So my mom had explained to me, like, some of the things that would happen in the way, like, you can kind of keep it sacred, but, like, explaining. But it was. I had no idea what it would be like. I had attended a temple prep class at byu, Idaho, but even then, very vague, and you don't really understand what you're promising or, like, what is even going to happen.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:35] Right.

Rian Anderson [00:49:38] So I went into it hoping the best, like, really excited and trusting the people who I loved. And I almost had, like, a panic attack in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:49:53] How come?

Rian Anderson [00:49:53] I.

John Dehlin [00:49:55] What parts?

Margi Dehlin [00:49:55] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:49:56] Do you remember? Yeah, I love the initiatories, because am I able to, like, talk about what happens? Okay, so women bless women. And that felt so empowering. I was like, oh, my gosh. Women, like, do have the power of God, meaning they put their hands on

John Dehlin [00:50:15] your head and say blessings.

Rian Anderson [00:50:16] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:17] They bless and do parts of your.

Rian Anderson [00:50:19] Yeah. And put, like, oil on your head and these sorts of things. And that felt really amazing. Putting the garments on the first time was like, oh, this is my life now. This is my forever life. And. Yeah. But it was still okay because people I loved did it, and we're living that way. So then I went into the endowment room, and I felt, first of all, it was so weird that the women were on one side and the men were on the other. Felt very, like, segregated. And also, everyone was wearing these weird clothes. Like, everyone was wearing white. The men wore these, like, weird hats. And I was like, what is this? Like, what have I just walked into?

John Dehlin [00:51:04] They're like baker caps.

Rian Anderson [00:51:06] Yeah. They look like Chef. Like, little mini chef hats.

John Dehlin [00:51:10] And they come straight from the Masonic Lodge. So Google Masonic clothing and you'll see what we mean.

Rian Anderson [00:51:17] Yeah, that's interesting. I didn't know that, but.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] Oh, you didn't know that?

Rian Anderson [00:51:21] I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [00:51:21] Oh, the whole temple ceremony comes from the Mason.

Rian Anderson [00:51:23] I knew it's Masonic, but I didn't realize, like, the outfits, too.

John Dehlin [00:51:27] The little apron, the robes, the hats, all Masonic.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:31] Wow.

Rian Anderson [00:51:31] Well, that makes sense. But I had watched the documentary Wild Wild country on Netflix before. I mean, it's so good. Yeah. But so cult started to be part of my language at that time when I watched that. So I was going through the endowment, and I was. I mean, off the bat, as we started putting aprons on and, like, sashes on, I was like, this feels wrong. Like, my mind and entire body are screaming at me that this is not right. And, like, why is everyone just going along with this? And then I remember sit. Because in the. I went through the Fort Collins temple, so there's multiple rooms that you go through for the endowment. So in the second room before you go through the curtain, the veil, they call it into, like, heaven celestial room. They. Because that was the. It was my first time going through. They made it. Me go last through the veil. So at some point, it was just me and my mom sitting in the chairs, and she. I asked her about this because I just remember, like, for the first time in My life having these red flags go off and like, I'm in a cult. Like, my mind just kept going over and over the cycle. Like, this is a cult. I'm in a cult. What is happening? And my mom just like looked over and put her hand on my hand and was like, are you okay? And I was like, I just shook my head. Like, I didn't even know. I was like, about to like, have a full blown panic attack. And she was just like, we, we can get through this. Like, you got this. So obviously went through the veil, did all the signs and tokens and my whole family was waiting there. Like my grandparents, my leaders, the bishop. Like all these people that I looked up to that had come to support me in this really special experience were there. So I just put a smile on my face and like, tried to like, push everything I was feeling down. And then we went back into the changing room after kind of hanging out in this celestial room, and I. I took off my. The things you put on during the ceremony and then my dress. And I was like sitting in my garments and I was just sobbing like. And my mom came in and was like, what's wrong? And I asked her and she was like, you were just pale white. Like all the color from your face had. Was gone. Like you were just not yourself at all. And I was like, I don't know. But I do know God wasn't part of that experience.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] You said that to her in the temple.

Rian Anderson [00:54:20] I think in the temple, or it was very quickly after or in that moment.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:26] I was gonna say the idea of you're not yourself or you are fully in touch with yourself. Yes.

Rian Anderson [00:54:32] Right, Totally. It's like this weird, like, back and forth of me connecting with inner me.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:39] Yes.

Rian Anderson [00:54:39] But also like this outside source that is taking so much.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:43] Yeah. And that juxtaposition I would imagine of through the veil and you're having such a disconnected experience to the white, the peace, the love of all the faces. But you inside are like screaming. Yeah, that's really an interesting, you know, very violent. Kind of totally consider for you.

Rian Anderson [00:55:09] And it was like I trusted and loved all these people. And I was like, they. This is what they've been doing. Like, yeah. What? It just made no sense to me in my mind. And I was like, it just felt so culty. And culty is like such a general term. I don't really like to use it, but. Because it can apply to so many things. But I do feel like it's important to recognize cultish behaviors within our organization.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] Yeah, weird dress. Weird dress.

Rian Anderson [00:55:34] Weird new name. Which I had no idea.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:38] Yes.

Rian Anderson [00:55:40] Which I was like, why wouldn't God just love me for who I am? And my name, like, I love my name. So it was just all these little pieces and then.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] Do you like your new name?

Rian Anderson [00:55:50] It's all right.

John Dehlin [00:55:51] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:55:52] Can I say it? Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] I'm.

Rian Anderson [00:55:55] It was Phoebe. So I was like, oh, friends, obviously.

John Dehlin [00:55:59] That's fun.

Rian Anderson [00:56:00] I can remember that. That's a good.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:02] Yeah. Seriously.

Rian Anderson [00:56:04] Because it was like, never forget this. And I was like, oh, perfect. I'll always remember that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's amazing.

John Dehlin [00:56:13] This is one of the first times anyone's ever revealed their temple.

Rian Anderson [00:56:15] Oh, well, there you go.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] Okay.

Rian Anderson [00:56:18] So you're Phoebe. Yeah, I'm Phoebe.

John Dehlin [00:56:19] I'll be Ross, apparently.

Rian Anderson [00:56:20] The God Rachel.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I went too far. I took it too far. No, I'm kidding. You don't have to edit this out. Okay, so. Okay. Keep going. So.

Rian Anderson [00:56:31] But yeah, so we went to dinner afterwards, I think grandparents and my aunt and uncle who were there. And it was like their first time going back after a long time. So it was just a really weird. And I just couldn't say anything. Like, I. I just couldn't function. I would just, like, nod and try my best to, like, be part of the conversation. But I had no ability to, like.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:52] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:56:53] Be myself.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:54] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:56:55] And after we went back home and I just sat in my bedroom, like, sobbing. I was like, I am about to go on a mission. Literally, in, like, four weeks, I'm gonna leave to dedicate my life to this. And it feels so wrong now. And my mom came in and she just sat on the bed next to me and I just told her. I was like, I don't think I could go. I don't think I go. My mission. And she was like, that is okay. You do not have to go. Like, she. She. She's just so amazing in the way. Like, just do what feels right to you. But all these expectations of me going. I mean, my grandma had bought a whole new wardrobe for me. I was about to give my going away talk in church. Like, all my peers at byu, Idaho knew I was leaving. All these people I loved, like, expected me to go. And I myself expected me to go. Yep. So the shame of not going was too great. But it was still this moment of, like, I can't teach these people this. Like, I cannot do it.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:09] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [00:58:10] But my mom brought this idea of, like. Well, some people don't, like, feel the spirit in different places in their lives. So maybe the temple is not the place for you. Maybe the mountains are like, maybe that's where you fear closest to God and that's okay. Like this idea of okay, the temple maybe isn't right for me, but also it's supposed to be right for everyone

John Dehlin [00:58:37] and it's supposed to be God's most sacred ordinance for his chosen people.

Rian Anderson [00:58:43] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:58:44] So. But. But your mom was also modeling sort of a buffet Mormonism where you pick and choose the things, which is actually healthy. But.

Rian Anderson [00:58:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:58:53] And also not very good.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:55] Yes.

Rian Anderson [00:58:55] And it felt comforting when she did say that because I was like, oh, okay, then I'm okay. Then like, this is okay. It's weird and challenging, but that was the first time that I wrote down in my journal I was experiencing a faith crisis. That was the first time I ever used that language, was that night when I wrote in my journal and I was like, this is a really bad time to be having a faith crisis. Like, I'm about to leave on a mission to share this with people. Wow. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:24] And I keep noting these, but like, again, the temple, you knew it wasn't right. You knew it was a big red flag and you're, you're. And it's almost impossible. I would like to meet the 18 or 19 year old young man or young woman who, who like goes to the temple before they're going to serve a mission and then like calls it all off and says, sorry, mom, dad, sorry, Bishop, sorry all my BW friends, sorry siblings. This church is too culty for me. I'm out of here. Almost none. Like, if there's someone who ever did that, I've never heard of them or I don't remember ever hearing of them. And it would be less than 1/10 of 1%.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:04] It would be just an exception.

John Dehlin [01:00:06] It's impossible. Social and familial pressure.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:09] It's a current, it's. It is actual current that you are, you are in and riding.

John Dehlin [01:00:15] It's like you're in the Colorado river at level five and you're expecting a kid to somehow just hop out.

Rian Anderson [01:00:21] I mean, that's the perfect explanation. And that's how it felt.

John Dehlin [01:00:23] Plus, it invokes Colorado.

Rian Anderson [01:00:24] Yeah, exactly. Perfect. Would win. But yeah, yeah, it just was overwhelming.

John Dehlin [01:00:32] And then also just your desire to go foreign, like, that's so not Mormon. Have any preference for where you go really? Or to say, I don't want to go domestic, I want to go foreign. But the truth is, you're going to give a year and a Half of your life you're paying in most situations. Why shouldn't you be able to say, it's worth it for me if I can have an international experience and learn a language, versus I don't want to go to Arkadelphia, Arkansas, or like, Mud Lake, Idaho. Like, that's actually a reasonable inkling that you had that you also just had

Margi Dehlin [01:01:04] to stuff down, like, have a say.

Rian Anderson [01:01:05] Totally. Like it was already a loss of self that was happening even before my mission. Yes. Like, these little events were just separating me from myself further and further. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] Yeah, I see.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:19] That's such a good point.

Rian Anderson [01:01:20] Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:01:21] Okay.

Rian Anderson [01:01:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:22] So how I left.

Rian Anderson [01:01:23] Permission.

John Dehlin [01:01:24] You went. Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:01:25] And before I left, obviously, my dad was in the bishopric, my mom was in the stake.

John Dehlin [01:01:33] Young Women's presidency, which adds to the pressure.

Rian Anderson [01:01:35] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:36] Higher profile callings as well.

Rian Anderson [01:01:39] And we had been in the stake for so long that we knew everyone. Like, everyone knew who we were. I knew everyone, like. So, yeah, just a lot of, like, peer pressure.

The Mission Training Center Experience

John Dehlin [01:01:51] How was the mtc? The mission training center?

Rian Anderson [01:01:54] Totally. I struggled immediately.

John Dehlin [01:01:56] Is Provo, right?

Rian Anderson [01:01:56] Provo, Yeah. I went to the Provo. Yep. Yep. Only there for three weeks because I wasn't speaking a different language. I loved my companion. My companion in the MTC was amazing. She was like such a gem. And we shared kind of the same struggles of that loss of everything normal besides the church. I mean, right away you feel the effects of, like, not being able to watch tv, of not be able to scroll on Instagram, not even having access to any social media. No music that you like to listen to besides church music? Yeah. All these things that kind of make you. You in some ways are like, taken away.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:39] That's right.

Rian Anderson [01:02:39] It's like this immediate grief is what I like to. I don't. I wouldn't identify that at the time. That's not what I would have said. But now it's this loss of everything besides the church. So then over time, you turn to the church and it becomes your identity for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:59] That's right. It's almost like the conditioned self. I guess there is one before, but it feels so much more intense with a mission, which is so ironic because you're like, I think I need a break from the nursing program. I'm going to go on a mission. Which is such an intense, amped up experience, but it feels like a new intensity of the conditioned self emerges and kind of hijacks you. Is that kind of what you're saying for sure?

Rian Anderson [01:03:28] And it was like, I was told, like, the Mission is such a good time to, like, find yourself and explore new things and meet new people and have this amazing experience. I mean, I can't even count the amount of times I was told, like, it'll be the best year and a half of your life. Like, most important, most enjoyable time.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:49] Most enjoyable.

Rian Anderson [01:03:50] Yeah. I think maybe only one person, one of my roommates at byu Idaho mentioned, like, it's gonna be the hardest time of your life, but worth it. So I was like, well, yeah, it's gonna be awesome. Sounds great. But then in the mtc, you have this shock and it's like, even you, you. We couldn't even sing, like, songs we liked in the showers.

John Dehlin [01:04:16] Like pop songs.

Rian Anderson [01:04:17] Yeah, like a sister missionary told on us.

John Dehlin [01:04:20] And like, what were you singing?

Rian Anderson [01:04:22] I think just, like, lame. I think it was literally Les Miserables, like from the musical. No, literally. I think it was that song.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:30] And that internal policing, I think is an important aspect of the. To show the. The level of intensity density there and the importance of rule following.

Rian Anderson [01:04:40] Totally.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:40] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:04:41] Yeah. And it really reinforced that, like, immediately.

John Dehlin [01:04:45] So they told in you for singing one day more in the shower.

Rian Anderson [01:04:47] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:04:48] And then did you. How did you find out?

Rian Anderson [01:04:52] Because you have sister training leaders who are like sisters put above, kind of the newer missionaries in the missionary training center. And they told us, like, we can. You can't sing in the shower anymore. They just banned singing in the shower, which was like, well, that's like so enjoyable, actually, because it's like a moment of like, not focusing on the church. But that was taken away as well. And I quickly realized the mission wasn't what I thought it was going to be. And I don't really necessarily know what I thought it was going to be because no one else in my family had ever served a mission. So I didn't have that aspect of kind of knowing what you do on a daily basis or what you teach people. Like, I didn't really know that.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:36] Oh, I see that.

Rian Anderson [01:05:37] So it was like, immediately all these, like, role playing activities of teaching people, like Joseph Smith's first vision. And I was like, I don't really even care if people like, believe this. I just want them to be happy and, like, feel loved. So I was like, okay, I just need to get through the MTC and get out into the field and it'll be better.

John Dehlin [01:05:55] Were there other parts of the plan of salvation as you're. As you're thinking about, okay, I got to teach him tithing. I got to teach him the three levels of heaven. I got to Teach him the atonement. I got to teach them the restoration, the apostasy. Were there other parts of the lessons or even baptism where you're like, I'm not sure I want to teach this to people.

Rian Anderson [01:06:14] Definitely baptism. I mean, that was a big one.

John Dehlin [01:06:16] I was like, I mean, that's the whole point of mission.

Rian Anderson [01:06:18] No, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:06:19] Which I don't.

Rian Anderson [01:06:19] It seems crazy that I didn't even realize that. Like that did not. I missed that part. I missed that lesson. Where was that memo? So I was like, if people are happy with where they're at, I want to reinforce that in their lives. Even though the church was like who I was, I loved the church, was how I made every decision, really, it felt like. But I also hated the feeling of being like a salesperson for the church. I noticed that right off the bat that it was your salesperson. That's how it felt. Very business.

John Dehlin [01:06:58] I don't know if non Mormons or even Mormons have really thought about this, but if you're Baptist and you're baptized, well, a Mormon will say you need a new baptism. If you're Catholic or Lutheran or Presbyterian, none of those baptisms count. So it's not only if they've just never been baptized at all, it's if they've been baptized into a legitimate Christian church. Well, that baptism's not good enough either.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:19] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:07:20] Right.

Rian Anderson [01:07:20] Yes. And I really struggle and people don't understand that.

John Dehlin [01:07:24] No other Christian churches are like, oh, Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, it's all baptism. Not, not with Mormons.

Rian Anderson [01:07:30] No, no. And it's really difficult to tell that to people. And it really, it honestly turns them off most of the time, which makes sense to me. And it made sense when I was a missionary. I was like, obviously that's offensive. Like, that is something that's meaningful to them and like, and I'm telling them it means nothing.

John Dehlin [01:07:49] It didn't count.

Rian Anderson [01:07:50] No, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:07:53] So the other thing is, the reason it doesn't count is because it's not done by the proper authority. But you as a Mormon woman don't have the authority to do it. No.

Rian Anderson [01:08:04] Yeah. I mean, it didn't, but yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:08:07] I mean these 18 year old boys that know nothing, they can baptize you for real where it'll count. But I can't because I'm a woman.

Rian Anderson [01:08:15] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] Okay, now, I'm sorry, I'm.

Rian Anderson [01:08:17] No, no, it's true though. It's just, I think that aspect also felt demeaning too, of like, I felt on a level playing field as the people I was teaching, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:08:34] Not superior to them.

Rian Anderson [01:08:35] No, not. I mean, inherently. I think as a growing up Mormon, the specialness. Yes. Is built in the us versus them is always gonna be there because you have the true church and they don't.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:49] That's right. And that's behind baptism. The whole thing John was saying is this. The specialness is behind it.

Rian Anderson [01:08:56] Yeah, Agreed.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:57] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:08:58] So, okay. So, yeah, the MTC ended up loving it by the end. I loved the missionaries I was serving around. They're so fun. I love being able to, like, eat all together because you all. All the missionaries get together and eat in this one big cafeteria setting and the food is actually. I heard it wasn't good, but I really enjoyed it. Like, you could eat whatever you want, and it was just amazing. And growing up with five, like, five of us, I mean, if you like something, you weren't able to get a lot of it because it was gone by the time you got to it, you know, so it was fun to just have, like this freedom in a sense of like.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:34] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:09:34] Being with people who are all doing the same thing. We're all kind of struggling. I remember maybe my second week in the mtc, me and my companion during a study time, we sat on, like, the fourth floor of the classroom building on the MTC campus, and we were just sobbing, looking at the cars driving by on the street past the fence line of the mtc. And we were just like, I wonder what music they're listening to. And I wonder if they would pick us up if we jump that fence right now. And just this. What are we doing? And it's literally going to be a year and a half. Like, we haven't even started our mission. Really.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:21] Wow.

Rian Anderson [01:10:22] And these people are just living their lives and, like, why aren't we doing that? But of course, you push that aside and you're like, no, I'm doing what God wants me to do.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:33] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:10:33] Like, why am I feeling this way? And then internally shaming yourself for feeling that way.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:38] That's right. That's right. Yeah. That duality. It's interesting, isn't it? The flip back and forth from, you know, having this part of you emerge where you're feeling a lot of loss and even yearning for the life now that you're separated from.

Rian Anderson [01:10:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:54] And the people you're separated from. And then that other part, that's just like. Yep. But this is what God wants you to do. And the people need you.

Rian Anderson [01:11:02] And so we're doing it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:05] Yeah. I'm reminded of the time. Stephen Hassan, kind of the world's cult expert, came to Salt Lake and he kept talking about this idea of a cult personality.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:14] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:11:15] Which is not the. And I don't think it's constructive to call the Mormon Church occult on Mormon stories. So I, I tend not to. But just this idea of a healthy organization or relationship is going to get you to cultivate who you are, what you like, what you care about, and help you build up that so you have the strong sense of self and motivation and direction and values. Occult's going to get you to care about and value what they want you to value, even if it's totally against what your inner soul or spirit or conscience is saying. And the man. The mission is just the way to drive any of that out of you. And you just assume as a salesperson for the church, they're telling you how to dress, how to act, how to behave, what time to wake up, what time to go to bed. You can't be alone with anybody. Like the Mormon mission is the most cult, like.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:10] I mean it probably rivals the temple is the most cult like aspect of Mormonism.

Rian Anderson [01:12:15] Agreed.

John Dehlin [01:12:15] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:12:16] And by the end I was, was so confident in myself because the church was my whole identity. So I was like, I knew what to do. I knew how to teach a lesson and a drop of hat. Like, I knew how to do it. I knew how to do what they were telling me. So I was confident. But like, what, what's the price of that confidence?

Margi Dehlin [01:12:37] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:12:37] Right.

John Dehlin [01:12:38] Yeah. So self denial. Yeah, yeah. And lack of self development, probably.

Rian Anderson [01:12:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:12:44] So anything else about the MCC or.

Rian Anderson [01:12:45] No. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:47] I mean, go to.

Rian Anderson [01:12:48] Yeah. I loved it by the end and I was, I was sad to say goodbye to these missionaries that I had grown close to.

John Dehlin [01:12:54] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:12:55] And that's a common theme throughout my mission is this loss of like friends I was building.

John Dehlin [01:13:00] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:13:02] But I got to the mission and I right off the bat felt a lot of love for my mission president and his wife.

John Dehlin [01:13:14] What was their like, career background? What was his career background?

Rian Anderson [01:13:17] He was, he owned a business. I don't remember what kind of business, but he had sold it to come out on the mission.

John Dehlin [01:13:24] Probably millionaires, for sure.

Rian Anderson [01:13:26] For sure. For sure. Wealthy. Yeah. Very wealthy.

John Dehlin [01:13:29] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:13:31] But they, as a missionary, your mission president and his wife are like the closest thing you can get to God. Like, and they are like, I viewed them as like my parents on the mission and I trusted them to take care of me. My parents trusted them to take care of me. And I just thought they had they wanted the best thing for me, so I immediately trusted them.

John Dehlin [01:13:59] Yeah. It's like, if you were to have been asked that first or second week in the field, who's closer to God, who knows God's will more, your parents or your mission president and his wife, what do you think you would have answered?

Rian Anderson [01:14:12] Mission president, his wife. Easy. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:14] Yeah. So they're somewhere between parents and God. Probably. Probably every. You respect them or value them as much as your parents. Plus. Yeah. Plus God.

Rian Anderson [01:14:24] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:14:25] That's a lot of power.

Rian Anderson [01:14:26] Exactly. Yes. A lot.

John Dehlin [01:14:27] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:28] And I do think it's important to point out that this is a theme in Mormonism, too, this idea of trust without earning it right. And it plays into wards with us moving into a ward and immediately calling people brother so and so or sister so and so. And with mission presidents, with. With bishops, it's like, no, there is no earning of trust. We have no sense for actually how trust should work. And so it can make you vulnerable. You just give it.

Rian Anderson [01:15:03] Totally. Yeah. And that's a common theme, I think, throughout my life. Just because I did look up to these adult figures in my life so much, I valued their respect of me.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:16] Right.

Rian Anderson [01:15:17] So.

Early Mission Life and Onset of Depression

John Dehlin [01:15:17] So how'd things begin?

Rian Anderson [01:15:20] I remember getting. Getting called into my first area. They have all the trainers sit on one side of the room, and all the new missionaries sit on the other. And I think I arrived to the mission with about six or seven new missionaries. So all these, like, older, more like matured missionaries that we immediately look up to because it seems like they know what they're doing are, like, sitting across from you. And then the APs, who are, like the assistants to the president, they're, like, right below the president in power, and, like, they feel very godlike. Start reading off your name and where you're gonna go. There's no map or anything. Like, you have no idea, like, where this place is. But I got called to Dana Hills Ward in Newport Beach, California, and I. I heard that the ocean was part of the area we were in.

John Dehlin [01:16:24] Is that Dana Point?

Rian Anderson [01:16:25] Yeah, Dana Point. Yeah. Dana Point was, like, where I live.

John Dehlin [01:16:27] Gorgeous.

Rian Anderson [01:16:28] Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It's just stunning. I immediately fell in love with the area, and my trainer was awesome. Like, I obviously just immediately looked up to her. She's my role model. I mean, your trainer's, like, teacher is teaching you the ropes. I remember leaving the mission home and going directly into, like, our first lesson. She was like, we got a lesson. We got to go teach it. And I was like, I haven't even like unpacked or like, I don't even know what I'm doing. I don't even know how to teach a lesson. But we ended up doing that and I was just like so blindsided and realizing like, oh, the MTC is what we're doing. Like they are actually training you for what you're going to be doing as a missionary. But my, I was with her for two transfers, so two six weeks chunks of time. And we stayed in Dana Point three months basically. Yeah. And I, I loved the people. Like, that was my favorite part of missionary life was serving people and like helping them like pull weeds and like sort through like papers for these elderly women in the ward. Like, I just lived for that and dreaded with like my whole being. Teaching lesson. Like having to go teach a lesson.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:52] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:17:53] Or like knocking doors was like the most anxiety inducing experience for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:01] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:18:02] First of all, I'm pretty introverted and shy, I'd say, when it comes to like sharing my beliefs especially. So the idea of like just knocking on a random person's door and like trying to make a sales pitch for the church felt so uncomfortable and my brain would like shut off. So then my trainer would be mad, understandably, because that's frustrating for her. She's like taking on this huge workload. But I just felt so insecure and like hurt all the time because I didn't know what I was doing and I didn't like what I was doing. But in some way it was like God needed me to do this thing right.

John Dehlin [01:18:50] So now some would say that's a great opportunity. Of course you're scared. Yeah, you're insecure. But then you gain skills and then you gain confidence because you overcome those fears and that's a great preparation. Preparation for the rest of your life.

Rian Anderson [01:19:05] Totally. And I agree with that. But I also think I could have gotten that in a different way without the church involved. Because then it creates this element of you're solely confident in teaching the church. Does that make sense? Like, yeah. And yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:23] I. What I hear you saying is for whatever reason, the why and the how weren't resonating with you, why you were going to the door and saying the thing. Right. That you were having a disconnect, disconnect with that belief even though you had the conditioned self and then the how, how you were supposed to do it. This idea of like, it's so scripted when you get to a door, which I feel like can feel very inauthentic, very, you know, all the things and what I'm hearing is that there were enough barriers for you that it actually kept you from being able to actually do it. Is that right?

Rian Anderson [01:20:02] For sure. And along with, like, knocking doors, it was also like. Like I said, you have no TV that you, like. You're not allowed to read the books you like. Like, there's. My mission president was very strict on music, so nothing with drums or any beat. So Mormon Tabernacle Choir or, like, acoustic versions of EFY songs. So it's very limited on music choice. And, like, music is such a big part of, like, me feeling my feelings. So, like, that part's taken away, let alone there's no time to, like, really express how you're feeling anyway or, like, let those things surface. So for me, Preparation Day, when I got to call my family on Mondays, was that time where, like, I just would break and everything would, like, be released.

John Dehlin [01:20:56] What do you mean you would break on those calls home, Give all the

Rian Anderson [01:21:01] feelings like, I was suppressing. Like, I. I was obviously never diagnosed with depression or anxiety, but I. I was depressed and anxious 24 7. So on those calls, I would just, like, break down into, like, my mom would just be like, how are you doing? And I'd just break down.

John Dehlin [01:21:20] So your calls, you would cry.

Rian Anderson [01:21:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:22] Each time.

Rian Anderson [01:21:23] Yes. Like, ball. And like, be. Have a hard time, like, making out words and sentences. Like, trying to tell my mom, like, what was happening, but also not understanding.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:34] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:21:35] Why I was feeling this way.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:36] Yes. Because you're doing all the things. You're doing what's asked of you. You're doing the. And again, you're having this experience where the experience is feeling different than what you've been told it should be. So it's happening again.

Rian Anderson [01:21:51] Yes. So it's really hard. And our calls were only an hour long, so it'd be like. And Preparation Day is from, like, the time you wake up at 6:30 to 6pm preparation day. It's not a full day. It ends at 6pm and then you're back to work that evening. So oftentimes I would be calling them at like, the end of the day, like five to six. So then six would come along and I'm like, bawling and I'm like, I have to go. Like, I need to fall. Obviously, I'm a rule follower, so I need to follow the rule. I need to end the call. But I'm crying and I'm leaving my parents with this situation that they don't know how I'm doing or, like, if, like, how I'm Recovering and, like, functioning after those calls.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:38] Oh, so hard.

Rian Anderson [01:22:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:41] I remember being discouraged from telling your parents anything sad or bad happening to you. What was that? Was. Was that still a thing? And even if it wasn't, I imagine there's a part of you that might feel like a failure if you're telling them you're hating it or not loving it 100%. What was that like for you?

Rian Anderson [01:23:02] And that's definitely still a thing where you're like, they don't recommend you tell your parents the challenging stuff. But I was really close to my parents and, like, I would tell my parents everything, like, even in high school and stuff. And they were just very. It was a very open conversation with them. So it was. Would be so unnatural for me not to tell them how I was feeling. And there are people like, I know.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:27] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:23:27] And that's like the first conversation in the entire week where I'm talking to someone, like, I'm familiar with and who knows me. So I'm like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, of course I'm gonna, like, collapse.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:38] And in that way, likely is this reminder of yourself. All of a sudden you're back to a relationship, you know, people who care about you. So it's like it must have felt. Did it like. Oh, a coming back to yourself with like this flood of emotion.

Rian Anderson [01:23:55] Exactly. Almost that reconnection with inner you because you're so disconnect the whole week. And then it's like a little shadow of familiarity has grown. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:06] Now that I'm thinking about it for decades and decades again, you could only call home twice a year. That was probably helpful in walling you off from your inner self and from your former self. And it was probably led to a, quote, happier mission. Because maybe it would be almost re. Traumatizing to constantly be in touch with your home, to be hearing how things are going to be able to be authentic in your feelings versus just wall them off. And stuff them down. And stuff them down. I mean, there's a reason why they did it for so long and they were shamed into stopping it. So I imagine that might have made it harder for you to be shutting off who you are. I don't know.

Rian Anderson [01:24:51] I agree. And I'm sure I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't had more issues since, like mental health issues since that change. Because, yeah, every week it was like, these feelings are being brought back up.

John Dehlin [01:25:07] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:25:07] Instead of just keeping them down and bottled up.

John Dehlin [01:25:10] Because I'm really good at shutting off my feelings. Scary good. And I do Think I do think my mission, because my. I was in Guatemala, like, the food was awful. It was scary. There was coup d' etats with tanks driving through the streets I couldn't call home. I had parasites like six months, you know, but you just suck it up. And so, like, I think the downside of that is I just learned to shut off my feelings. Things totally, which, I don't know, in some ways strengthened me, but in some ways caused maybe some issues later.

Rian Anderson [01:25:44] Maybe.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:46] Maybe there's a. Maybe there's a long term cost to that. Maybe that's not what we're going for.

John Dehlin [01:25:52] I mean, it worked for me. Did it not work for you so well?

Rian Anderson [01:25:55] It worked for you.

John Dehlin [01:25:58] This is an ongoing thing. I'm like, I'm doing great. He's like, you're not doing great. Ask the people around you with a lot of love.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:06] With a lot of love.

John Dehlin [01:26:07] Anyway, not about me, but back to you.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:09] But back to you. Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:26:11] I think the mission does is supposed to train you to disconnect from yourself and your feelings. That's like, I'm convinced that's one of the purposes of it. And I like to think I wouldn't have stayed if I went to another country. So in a lot of ways, I'm grateful I stayed in the country and didn't have to learn a new language because I think that would have destroyed me.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:38] Yeah, it's awful, but interesting.

Rian Anderson [01:26:42] Also it was familiar, so it allowed me to accept staying even though I was so uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [01:26:52] Yeah. So talk about some of the bad things that started happening.

Mental Health Struggles and Seeking Therapy

Rian Anderson [01:26:58] Yeah, some of the touch points. The first thing that I remember happening is my second transfer and I had kind of this revelation moment of like, I'm supposed to be here. Like, we had just found someone really cool to teach and I had, like, finally broken out of my shell and like, taught this really great lesson. I felt really proud of myself. And we got back in the car and I was like, this is why I'm here. This is why I'm serving a mission. And we got back to the house and my trainer, she was like, I didn't want to tell you this, but since you're like, really in on the mission now, one of the missionaries you came with home, like, came here with, has gone home. And, like, she decided to leave. And I just remember, like, my body just like having this physical reaction of like, I'm so jealous. Like, I wish I could go home. And like, I had just talked to her a few weeks back when we were doing, like, interviews with my mission President. And we had talked about, like, how we had some of the same struggles, how we missed home and our family and, like, how we were kind of struggling. And she went home. And in a lot of ways, it was like, that's not an option for me, just because of who I was. And also, like, fear of. Well, one person in my group went home, so, like, I can't go home now, like, which is a weird mental space to be in.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:40] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:28:41] But that's just how my brain took it. But I stayed in Dana Point for two more transfers, and I got a new companion. And I. I really struggled with her. She was very controlling, and anytime I would do anything, she would always have a critique. It felt like I was doing nothing right. Which on top of, like, struggling as a missionary and, like, daily life and what we were doing, her control of every everything just took so much out of me. But during that transfer, I think it was the first transfer, we had someone murdered in the apartment above us. Luckily, we weren't there when it happened, but we were driving home from getting groceries on a P day, and, like, our entire apartment complex was, like, blocked off, and we couldn't get into our apartment. And then we had to, like, call a member because we have no access to news to, like, figure out what happened. So she, like, researched our apartment and was like, yeah, someone, like, got murdered and, like, literally the floor above you. Which made my companion very uncomfortable. I had worked as a CNA in a nursing home, like, in between high school and college. So I was pretty comfortable with, like, death being something that's kind of just natural. And it wasn't. I was dealing with so much that it wasn't shock. Like, it didn't really affect me at all, but it really affected her.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:19] Okay.

Rian Anderson [01:30:20] So she wanted to meet with a therapist, and she asked me if I want to join her. And I was like, why not? I mean, therapist? Why not? Sure. Someone to talk to besides you. So I met with her, and she was like, do you. How are you, like, doing with, like, missionary life? And I was like, I mean, struggling, but surviving. And she was like, do you want to keep meeting with me? I was like, sure. So that's how I started therapy on my mission.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:53] And is this an LDS therapist?

Rian Anderson [01:30:55] Yes. Designated to work for our mission.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:00] Okay.

Rian Anderson [01:31:00] And she. She saved. Saved my life. I mean, obviously she was an active contributor to staying on a mission and staying in a harmful situation, but she helped me make it out alive.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:19] Right. Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:31:21] So I'm grateful for her, but that's how I started Therapy, which is. Okay, kind of crazy. I'm grateful that something major happened and forced me into that.

John Dehlin [01:31:32] You know, I'm reminded of the LGBT research I did, and a lot of the LGBT Mormons that did conversion therapy with actual therapists still reported benefits of therapy. Because even if you're doing conversion therapy that's known to be harmful, the fact that you're meeting with someone regularly, expressing how you feel, somebody's listening and showing empathetic regard, that's positive, even if the actual therapy that they're using is toxic and causes harm. Totally sounds like there was something like that going on for sure.

Rian Anderson [01:32:06] I mean, I can definitely relate to that.

John Dehlin [01:32:07] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:32:09] And in that time with that certain companion, I started forming really deep relationships with these people we were teaching and coming in contact with. And I remember writing. I. I kept really good journals throughout my whole mission. I wrote a page a day. So I have it very well documented, which I'm grateful for. It helps me remember things. But there was a certain member, she was less active, and we started meeting with her, and she shared that she struggled with the temple, and she struggled with how the church treats LGBTQ members and how the polygamy is a thing. And I was like, I'm not the only one that struggles with this. And it was just eye opening. And she loved us so much and just helped us anytime we needed anything. And it was just eye opening just having someone share those same feelings and doubts, but also, like, I didn't want to teach her. Like, I didn't want to force her back in the church or anyone we were teaching. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:26] So how'd you proceed?

Rian Anderson [01:33:29] I got moved after my fourth transfer, and I had baptized two people at that point. Who? One was the less active now ex husband, and then another man we had met who he had gotten really close to as well. So leaving was, like, that another loss. Like, huge loss. Because it was like, I felt I loved these people. Like, and I had this connection with them, and, like, I had spent so much time with them, and they had been part of this, part of my mission, that I'd struggled deeply as well. So that connection just grew with them, and being taken away from that was shock. I got moved from Dana Point, which is more north, in the mission, to Vista, which is, like, way south, like, closer to San Diego, like farmland.

John Dehlin [01:34:26] Can I ask you a quick question?

Rian Anderson [01:34:27] Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [01:34:28] Dana. So you mentioned the murder happening in your apartment complex. Yeah. Was it an unsafe apartment? Sometimes missionaries are put in unsafe living conditions.

Rian Anderson [01:34:40] It's a wealthy area, so we definitely in almost all areas I was in. Were in, I would say, the most unsafe apartment complexes in the area. So for sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:53] So. So it wasn't just a random murder. It was an unsafe living condition.

Rian Anderson [01:34:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:34:59] And that's. That's one complaint I think is legitimate that people have. If the church is worth $250 billion, they can afford decent living conditions for the missionaries. Especially if the missionaries were by and large paying for their own missions.

Rian Anderson [01:35:14] Yes. I was fortunate enough in when my family started struggling with the church. The ward took over my payment for my mission.

John Dehlin [01:35:23] But even then.

Rian Anderson [01:35:24] But even then they're still paying the church.

John Dehlin [01:35:27] Paying with the church.

Rian Anderson [01:35:28] No, exactly. Which it doesn't make it okay at all.

John Dehlin [01:35:32] Plus, have we ever thought about people paying to be salespeople for the church? It's like, I want to go work for IBM, so all my friends and family, will you help pay so that I can go be a free salesman for IBM? Like it's a little bit weird.

Rian Anderson [01:35:46] It's crazy. And I have so many times in my journal where I was just at the end of the night, like, why am I a salesperson? Why am I paying to be a salesperson? And like I'm literally not able to do anything I like and I'm paying for this or people I love are paying for this.

John Dehlin [01:36:04] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:36:05] And how unfair that I'm not enjoying it. And like they're still paying for me to be there.

John Dehlin [01:36:12] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:36:12] It's just. Yeah, there's a lot of guilt.

John Dehlin [01:36:15] Yeah. Okay. So you felt unsafe in that first area?

Rian Anderson [01:36:18] Yes. Yeah, I'd say so.

John Dehlin [01:36:20] How about the second area?

Rian Anderson [01:36:23] It's very rural and low income area. I'd say. So more unsafe than.

John Dehlin [01:36:30] Less safe.

Rian Anderson [01:36:31] Less safe. No one got hurt or anything. But there was lots of contention in the apartments around us and wasn't a safe area. They had had elders there for the members said like years. They never had sisters there. So we. That by that point Covet had started. Oh, okay. We kind of skipped over that. But in March. So that was my second transfer with my trainer is when Covid started.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:02] Oh, so soon. So kind of so quick in your.

Rian Anderson [01:37:05] Oh yeah. So at that point we were stuck in our apartments for through my fourth transfer we were quarantined. So I think that was like March to about July. We were teaching from our apartments over the phone unless it was someone we had previously taught and known. And we're okay with us like coming over to their house or sitting outside.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:33] Okay.

Rian Anderson [01:37:34] So that was also playing into like tensions running high with my second Companion. Because we were inside all day. It was just us.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:42] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:37:43] We were very successful in having zoom calls with people. We had many lessons every week. Like, I was. We were teaching like 47 lessons a week over the phone because people were

Margi Dehlin [01:37:54] home and they had nothing else to do and isolated. Right.

Rian Anderson [01:37:58] And we were a friendly face who, like, would listen to them and, like, share good thoughts with them. So it was very successful in teaching during COVID in my mission.

John Dehlin [01:38:08] Interesting.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:10] There was still people in your area.

Rian Anderson [01:38:12] Yes. Yeah, yeah. And we had started teaching a lot with my trainer. So when I had my second companion, we had a lot of people to teach, and we were cold calling, so we were literally just. I mean, we opened phone books and just started like calling people or an area book. The app that we missionaries have, that list, all the people missionaries have ever come in contact with in that area and their phone number or address or whatever. And we would just be calling for hours.

John Dehlin [01:38:42] Door to door sales. It's like telesales.

Rian Anderson [01:38:44] Exactly. Even more miserable.

John Dehlin [01:38:47] Well, I was going to ask about that. So the. The. The stereotypical Mormon missionary is knocking doors all day long to try and find that golden investigator, and they're out walking around, getting exercise, meeting people, talking to people. In this switch number one, the world is imploding because there's a global pandemic. But then you're. You're basically doing telesales and you're cooped up all day.

Rian Anderson [01:39:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:39:12] What was that like?

Rian Anderson [01:39:15] It hurt mentally and physically. I think my back is, like, permanently messed up. From COVID because we would sit in these. I mean, there's not great furniture in missionary. You're literally like, collecting stuff from, like, the garb, like by the dumpster. You're getting whatever. People are leaving. So I had. We had these wooden chairs and you would just.

John Dehlin [01:39:34] Oh, for furniture. You're collecting stuff out of the dumpsters.

Rian Anderson [01:39:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:37] As a Mormon missionary.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:39:38] Okay.

Rian Anderson [01:39:39] That was a pretty common thing.

John Dehlin [01:39:41] That's where you got your furniture from, Dumpsters?

Rian Anderson [01:39:43] Yep. And we would sit in these hard wooden chairs, like typical dining chairs, and we would just have be on zoom calls for hours. And we. On top of that, we had no idea what Covid really was because we had no access to news. My mission president wasn't communicating what Covid was or, like, what we needed to be concerned of, what we were hearing from people we were teaching or members. And everyone had such extreme views on the situation. Some people were like, it's fake. It doesn't exist. Yeah, it's whatever. It's like Made up. And then these other people who are teaching who would be like, maybe you should consider like going home and being with your family. Like you might be unsafe and like, maybe you need to go home. I remember one guy in particular who like really cared for us. He had no interest in the church, but he was so kind and just caring for us. And he was, he was a great source of information. He would like try to send us news articles, but we couldn't pull them up because of all the restrictions on our phone. So it was just very confusing. We were just like, okay, I guess we just have to stay indoors and everyone's sick. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:02] So is part of the process that your phone is taken over? I'm sorry.

Rian Anderson [01:41:08] No, totally.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:09] So like, is that in the MTC or. And things are placed on your phone so that you can't. Is that the idea?

Rian Anderson [01:41:17] Yeah. I think a lot of people get a new phone for just their mission because they put a whole system on it. When you enter the mtc, so you drive, you're going through the airport, flying. I had to fly from Denver to Provo to Salt Lake City airport. I had no phone, no way to communicate because the phone doesn't work. And then you get to the MTC and they have you set up this system on your phone that controls every. The apps you can download, what you can search on Google. Google only church related things. You can access the BYU website or like, I don't know what the church's website is called now, churchofjesuschrist.org or something.

John Dehlin [01:42:02] So you bring your own phone, but without a SIM card. Fully deleted. Wiped everything clean.

Rian Anderson [01:42:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:42:08] Then you show up, they give you a SIM card that they control and they install a bunch of apps so that they can monitor. They can limit everything you can possibly learn or do. And there's software to monitor everything 100%.

Rian Anderson [01:42:23] There's an app you can pull up that has every app listed that you've accessed and how much time you spent on it, which plays into phone audits, which are weekly. You switch phones with your companion, go through what you've accessed. It's a way to like.

John Dehlin [01:42:40] So you'll go through your. Your companion's phone. Texts.

Rian Anderson [01:42:44] Yes. Emails, photos.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:47] So you release your companion a bit.

Rian Anderson [01:42:50] Yes. I think it's just a way.

John Dehlin [01:42:51] Looking for what?

Rian Anderson [01:42:53] Pornography.

John Dehlin [01:42:54] Okay.

Rian Anderson [01:42:55] Accessing music, movies, like anything that you're not allowed to access.

John Dehlin [01:43:01] You're looking for communicating with old friends.

Rian Anderson [01:43:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:43:05] Love interest.

Rian Anderson [01:43:06] And on my. I don't. I think every mission president's different mind was very strict in like, what we were allowed and what we weren't allowed to do, but we were not allowed to. Sorry, I forgot what I was gonna say.

John Dehlin [01:43:25] No, it's fine. But so, so yeah, you're, you're. When you're. So you're, you're auditing each other, what do you do if you find something they should be doing?

Rian Anderson [01:43:35] You tell the leader. Yeah, you, you tell the sister training leader or your zone leader. I don't even know what you would do. I was always someone who expected and thought the best of people. So I would never turn anyone in for if I found anything like that was something I would not do.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:56] Right.

John Dehlin [01:43:58] But others would.

Rian Anderson [01:43:59] Oh, yeah. I mean, people got sent home for

John Dehlin [01:44:02] doing stuff on the phone.

Rian Anderson [01:44:03] Yeah. Later. I didn't realize that until I was called assisted training leader and like put above other missionaries and told all these problems. But people were often sent home.

John Dehlin [01:44:14] What would a missionary get sent home for? For doing on his or her phone?

Rian Anderson [01:44:17] Accessing pornography was a major one that

John Dehlin [01:44:20] gets you sent home.

Rian Anderson [01:44:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:44:21] Okay.

Rian Anderson [01:44:22] Now how could you.

John Dehlin [01:44:23] How could you access pornography with all the controls they had?

Rian Anderson [01:44:27] I didn't know. I didn't know how until I was a sister training leader and the zone leaders were like, we found pornography on one of the elders found. And I was like, me and my companion were like, what? How, like, how in the world could you even have that? But they showed us there's a way to hack into like settings and then like you access Google Drive, like it's this loophole way that you figure out.

John Dehlin [01:44:52] So missionaries figured out ways to look at porn on their devices.

Rian Anderson [01:44:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:44:55] And if both missionaries were into porn, they're. They're just going to let each other look at porn and not. Not confess, I'm guessing for sure.

Rian Anderson [01:45:02] I mean, I would think so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:04] Like, you don't tell. I won't tell.

Rian Anderson [01:45:06] Totally. And you would get emergency transferred or sent home if they found like movies on your device. Cause I know when I was a missionary there's like Google Drive folders going around with like all these Disney movies and like just normal movies.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:21] They were like, give us something, we'll take Disney. Sure.

The Mission-Wide Phone Audit and Its Fallout

Rian Anderson [01:45:24] So that played in later on my mission when we ended up having like a mission wide phone audit, which was really traumatic.

John Dehlin [01:45:32] And I mean, let's talk about that.

Rian Anderson [01:45:35] You want to talk about right now? Okay, perfect.

John Dehlin [01:45:37] Just because it's in topic.

Rian Anderson [01:45:38] Yeah, yeah. So it was. I was in Newport beach area when. During that time. And I was a sister training leader and like I said me and my companion had talked with our zone leaders and found out, like, pornography was an issue. So one of our first. It's called mlc, Mission Leadership Council, where all the sister training leaders and zone leaders go meet with the mission president and his wife and, like, receive trainings from them. Just the leaders. So it was one of our first, like, in person after Covid. So we were all, like, really excited to, like, be together as a group. We got there, and obviously the opening stuff, and I think there's one training or something about Joseph Smith or Book of Mormon or something. And then two elders get up and they said, everyone is going to put their phones in this bin. And they had this plastic bin and passed it around, and you could see people's faces just, like, turning white. Like, it was just, like, all the color left their faces.

John Dehlin [01:46:53] Like, I could imagine some issues wanting to, like, reset their phone.

Rian Anderson [01:46:56] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:46:57] Right.

Rian Anderson [01:46:57] I mean.

John Dehlin [01:46:57] And you delete everything really quickly on their phone.

Rian Anderson [01:46:59] Yes. And the.

John Dehlin [01:47:01] Do you know if that happened or.

Rian Anderson [01:47:02] I'm sure it did. I'm sure. I mean, I was more afraid of, like, someone finding something on my phone, like, even though I knew there was nothing on there. But it's just like, that shock and fear and lack of privacy that was so alarming.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:19] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:47:21] To everyone.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:22] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:47:22] And so pass the bucket around. Everyone puts their phones in. And then they explained that they would be handing out phones to every. Everyone. Random, random missionary phone. And they were going to walk us through how to do a real phone audit. So we had this other missionary's phone. And they also explained that if you did find something, do not return it to the missionary after and return it to the president who was sitting on in front of us.

John Dehlin [01:47:57] Okay. And this is. This is literally because of the scenario I just mentioned. If two companions are complicit, then the audit's worthless. But if you get all the missionaries together and randomly distribute the phones, then it's harder to have complicit auditors. Is that right?

Rian Anderson [01:48:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:12] Is that what we're talking about here?

Rian Anderson [01:48:13] Oh, totally.

John Dehlin [01:48:14] Okay. And so the buddy system wasn't working?

Rian Anderson [01:48:16] No, it was not working. They were figuring it out, unfortunately. But I was afraid, like, they were going to go through, like, my emails because that was, like, the last sense of privacy that I had as a missionary. Like, I mean, I would be honest with my mom. Like, I was struggling with a companion or, like, whatever, like, these little things, but I was afraid that someone would think that that was against policy as a missionary.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:44] So were you scared?

Rian Anderson [01:48:45] I was so scared, even though I was such a rule follower.

John Dehlin [01:48:48] Wait, so someone could go through your emails to your parents and read them

Rian Anderson [01:48:52] and decide if they handed out a piece of paper that had. It was like the tiniest little font and like split into two columns on like a page horizontally. That explains step by step how to check each of the apps, each of folders, Google Docs, like folders within folders and like it was wild and scary and you're not even thinking about having to do this to other missionaries at that point. But you know, everything's a training. So it's like this also dread that you're gonna have to do this to others. So she has a leader as a

Margi Dehlin [01:49:35] sister training and kind of an implied threat.

Rian Anderson [01:49:38] Totally, yes. So then obviously I get my phone back and I was, I wasn't gonna find anything on. I wasn't gonna turn anyone in. So I obviously returned the phone to the sister missionary whose phone I had. And it was just this uncomfortableness that was like, felt like it was a heavy blanket over all of us. And then the APs get up and explain that we will be doing a mission wide audit the next day and you need to invite all the missionaries you're over to a meeting in person, which was the first in person meeting like since COVID as like a zone. And you, as soon as they walk up, you will have a bin. You will take their phones and

Margi Dehlin [01:50:35] the

Rian Anderson [01:50:35] sister trained leaders will take a turn doing a training and then the zone leaders will take a turn doing a training. And during those trainings the other companionship will be going through the phones like we just showed you. And you need to make sure the other missionaries do not find out about this so that they are surprised and will not delete things. Before this meeting, which it was I had, I was physically ill after that meeting. Like nothing else that was said, I didn't hear any of it. I was like, this is so wrong. And it goes against every fiber of my being.

John Dehlin [01:51:15] Why?

Rian Anderson [01:51:17] Because that's the like, that's all the privacy you have. Like your phone, as much as it's controlled, is like that's the last piece of you it feels like. And also why the hell would we be lying to other missionaries about this? I don't want to be the one put in a position where I have to trick other people and lie to them to get to this meeting where they could be sent home literally. And people, many missionaries did get sent home after the following day.

John Dehlin [01:51:51] That's what never Mormons have to understand is if you get sent home from, from your Mormon mission, what is that like?

Rian Anderson [01:51:58] I mean, so much shame. So much shame. Whether it's obviously from, I'm sure family and peers and members of the church, but also for yourself. Because the mission you want to succeed, they push it so hard that like you want to return with honor is a very popular phrase that they use. So let alone being sent home. But on top of that, being sent home for like pornography or like someone just finding movies on your phone, that is so demeaning and hurtful. And I had no desire to be part of that.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:37] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:52:38] And it was hurtful and it went against my integrity to do that. But I did it because. Because my mission president said so. I wasn't going to go against him, especially at that point.

John Dehlin [01:52:53] So also this gross policing of others behaviors. And also the church teaches about free agency and how free agency is really important and we should be. I mean the whole war in heaven. According to Mormon theology, Jesus and Satan are up there and Satan's saying, I'll force them to do what's right. And Jesus is saying we'll give them free agency. Right. Why are you guys laughing?

Rian Anderson [01:53:16] I just. That was such a huge question of mine, especially as a missionary. It was agency. I was like, why are you telling me we have. Why are we teaching that we have agency? Like freedom to choose whatever we want. And yet I'm telling these people they can't do what they want or like I can't do what I want. So like what even is agency? That was fake. Like, or. That's not a gift really? Because you're not allowing me to partake in that gift as you're explaining it.

John Dehlin [01:53:48] 100.

Rian Anderson [01:53:49] So it's.

John Dehlin [01:53:51] Yeah, but then also like the, the Salem witch trials or the McCarthy hearings. Like when you create a. Or the. Or freaking like Nazism or like Cold War KGB kind of stuff, you create a culture where you're spying on everyone and snitching back and you gain favoritism by getting people in trouble. That's a really toxic culture.

Rian Anderson [01:54:14] It's terrible.

John Dehlin [01:54:15] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:54:15] And along with that, my mission president was. Had this term of Christ, like correction that they pushed a lot, which I hated. I have so many entries in my journal where I'm like, this is so wrong. This is so wrong. But it created that system and feeling of fear because everything you were doing was like, counter. Yes. And it could be critiqued. And we learned as leaders, as a sister training leader, we would do role plays of how to like critique missionaries in the right way. And we would use like a. They explained as a sandwich. Sandwich method where you like, compliment, critique, compliment. And I was like, this is psycho. I remember like sitting in training and being like, I do not want to do this. And I know how hard it is to be a missionary. So like, why? Who am I to tell them that they're not doing something right when it's already so difficult?

Margi Dehlin [01:55:25] And I think that's a key point is just kind of, you know, acknowledging that what missions require are so beyond high expectation. Right. Where you know, every hour is kind of regimented and there's so much already required of you. And then to put this on top of that, I think, yeah, that's just super important. It's a lot to note. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:52] How is the church teaching its future leaders to self regulate? Like, when they get married, when they go to byu, when they're adults, are they going to have someone policing their phones?

Rian Anderson [01:56:05] Like, why they want you to? Because that's at the end of your mission. There's a thing called my plan, which is a kind of a education course that you do about returning home and like how to stay strong in the church and like goals and like marriage and dating and all these things. And I'm pretty sure that's like an idea that they bring up in that is like having weekly inventory. Phone audit. Inventory, yes. That's definitely the word they use. And it made it seem like marriage was like a companionship, like as a missionary, like a missionary companionship.

John Dehlin [01:56:53] Like, that's what they wanted it to be. Like a phone.

Rian Anderson [01:56:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:56] Did you. Hey, sweetie, did you look at porn today?

Margi Dehlin [01:56:58] Be like, we have a meeting. I would like your phone. Here's my phone.

Rian Anderson [01:57:02] Seriously? No, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:04] All in love. Christ. Like, correction.

Rian Anderson [01:57:05] Yeah. I mean, they recommended like having weekly, weekly planning sessions, like all the things that missionaries do. And I remember going into like newly married couples homes and they would have like a whiteboard exactly like ours, like we had in our apartment where their week was planned out. And like, it was just so weird to see these marriages where it was like, this is literally what I'm living right now. Like, why are you still doing this?

Margi Dehlin [01:57:35] Right, right. And already with what we know about, you know, let's just say within Mormonism, how we. How relationships are kind of constructed, right? Really devoid of emotional intimacy principles. But. And this just kind of plays into that where you're like, okay, so this is the focus rather than how to communicate, how to be vulnerable, how to write.

John Dehlin [01:58:02] I'll just also say it's my understanding of healthy relationships is you don't want your spouse to be your. Your parents, your mom, your dad, your police officer, your mission president.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:14] Right.

John Dehlin [01:58:15] Because, like, it's hard for them to be a lover if they're a parent. Right.

Rian Anderson [01:58:19] Yes, it's.

John Dehlin [01:58:20] It's hard.

Rian Anderson [01:58:21] It's like, that's not the relationship I want.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:23] Exactly.

Rian Anderson [01:58:23] That's not the love I want.

John Dehlin [01:58:25] You don't want to make passionate love to your mom.

Rian Anderson [01:58:28] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:29] Or to. Or to, like, a police. Like.

Rian Anderson [01:58:33] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:34] Really Having you be accountable for. Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:58:37] That's not. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:39] And. And so when you would. When this big mission audit happened, what was the result again?

Rian Anderson [01:58:47] Many missionaries got sent home. I think. I don't remember the exact number. I think it was above 10 missionaries. And it was just really sad because I had lacked friendships so long that being on a mission, I valued those missionaries so deeply and those friendships I had with them. So it was like, these people that I loved being sent home and cared about and knowing, like, how hard it would be for them, which is so sad. And I had no, like, judgment on them on, like, what they had on their phones or, like, what they found. I just remember feeling deeply sad for them.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:34] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [01:59:35] And scared for them, honestly.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:37] Right.

Rian Anderson [01:59:38] But I. I told my mom about that on a. On a p. Day call, and I remember that's one of, like, the last things I really told her about, like, what was hard about the mission or was a difficult situation because she hounded me on, like, you just. That's so against you. Like, that is not you. And what are you doing? Like, where is your integrity that I know you have? And it was so hurtful because it was like, I didn't want to do this, and I felt so guilty that I had done it and, like, hurt people and, like, broken trust with these people that I really, really deeply cared for.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:26] Right.

John Dehlin [02:00:26] Wait, did. Did some of the people that get sent home were the ones whose phones you audited?

Rian Anderson [02:00:32] No, not so. I only audited, like, the sister missionaries I was over.

John Dehlin [02:00:35] Okay.

Rian Anderson [02:00:36] And none of them. They were. They were all great.

John Dehlin [02:00:39] Okay. But you were part of a system.

Rian Anderson [02:00:40] I was part of a system, and I hated that.

John Dehlin [02:00:42] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [02:00:43] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:44] I mean, this analogy may not totally work, but it reminds me of. Of what happens when, you know, you're in a place like battle with people or oftentimes in sports, when you're in a really rigorous training program with people, and there's this sense of, like, whatever a system there or hardship or you're really going through, like, what's being asked of you is inhumane. Right. You're kind of going through something terrible or hard. Right?

Rian Anderson [02:01:14] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:15] That when something happens to those people around you, it does hit you. Like, it's you in a way. Right. If you're not completely just sold over to the system. And so, yeah, I'm just feeling it that way. That you're having a sense for, you know, what we're being asked to do feels inhumane. It feels super hard. It feels in some ways like, you know, no one can. No one can do it perfectly. Right. And so when someone is sent home, you're really feeling for them.

Rian Anderson [02:01:51] Yes. Yeah. And I like to think I'm an empathetic person in that way, and I hadn't had relationships or friendships like that before. Right. So that, on top of, like, we're all fighting the same cause and, like, going through the same thing just added another, like, more value to that.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:12] Yeah, that's right.

Rian Anderson [02:02:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:14] So I've heard reports that porn viewing on missions is actually quite high. I mean, that would. That would. Is that.

Rian Anderson [02:02:21] I believe it, and I think it was in our mission as well. And I think that's why my mission president was, like, so afraid and so. So, like, anti social media. Even during COVID like, when a lot of missions were using social media to teach and, like, share the church, we. It was only certain missionaries could access social media in that way and use it to teach.

John Dehlin [02:02:46] So the mission prison have to decide who is a likely porn viewer or not exactly.

Rian Anderson [02:02:50] I would think so. I think that's probably how he did it. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:02:54] I guess he used the spirit of discernment. He decided you were not a risk.

Rian Anderson [02:02:59] I guess so.

John Dehlin [02:03:00] Okay. Congratulations.

Rian Anderson [02:03:02] I made it okay.

John Dehlin [02:03:05] Yeah, I've heard porn use is really high in missions. The other thing is I have missionaries reaching out to me all the time on Facebook, and I'm wondering, why are missionaries. Sorry, did I say mission presidents? I have missionaries reaching out to me all this time on Facebook, and I'm like, why are missionaries on Facebook and why are they watching Mormon stories? And why are they able to message me, John Dehlin, of all people? But they do every month.

Rian Anderson [02:03:27] Yeah. It's because you have access to Facebook. That's like the one social media site you're able to access. And that is what's used since COVID It was implemented during, like, at the start of COVID to be able to teach and reach out to people that way. So I'm sure those missionaries are just finding Mormon stories on their feedback. Just probably Pops up, because that's what happens when you're focused on.

John Dehlin [02:03:52] But then is that not audited? So that.

Rian Anderson [02:03:54] Oh, I'm sure it is.

John Dehlin [02:03:55] The central headquarters that's monitoring your phones can know that they're watching Mormon stories or direct messaging me.

Rian Anderson [02:04:02] I'm sure it is. I'm sure they do, but I honestly don't think they pay that much attention. And it's hard.

John Dehlin [02:04:08] There's like 60. How many exactly? 50, 60, 70,000 missionaries.

Rian Anderson [02:04:13] I don't know. It was a lot.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:15] And it may be a mark of just desperation, you know, that people reach a point on missions that they're like,

John Dehlin [02:04:22] you know, I. I get why the missionaries are reaching out to me. I don't get why they're allowed to reach out to me.

Rian Anderson [02:04:27] Yeah, yeah. Well, maybe they have the cracks thing. It also depends on your companion and how, like, lenient they are. Yeah, you have to like, feel that out.

John Dehlin [02:04:36] Yeah, yeah.

Rian Anderson [02:04:36] So

John Dehlin [02:04:39] it's such a weird culture. Like we didn't have to deal with anything. The stuff on our missions.

Rian Anderson [02:04:43] Yeah, it's different. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. They've added a lot. Like for good or for worse. Yeah, yeah.

COVID Lockdown and Isolation on the Mission

John Dehlin [02:04:51] Okay. So how long were you kind of on COVID lockdown in your mission?

Rian Anderson [02:04:56] We started being able to like, get out and teach more in like members homes and stuff in July. And that's when I got moved from Dana Point to Vista and I got put with a missionary who had been sent home. She had served in Argentina for quite a while for I think for eight months. And then covet hit. She got sent home and she decided to come back out. And they were reassigning missionaries at that point. So like, missions were like flooding in the United States. We had like, our mission numbers like doubled just because people were getting reassigned stateside. Yeah. So I got one of. So she. Yeah, she'd just come. She was home for like a month before coming out to Newport Beach. And she was just one of the best people. Like, she just saved me, especially after companionship. I really struggled in and just felt so broken. She was so kind and like, so accepting and like, I just found a really deep friendship with her. And we were in this new area which had never had elders but. Or had sisters before, had had elders for years. And the ward members just like, loved us. The ward members love sister missionaries. It's kind of. It's fun to be a sister missionary because the members just like flock to you and the members there really, really valued us. I remember working really closely with like, the mission, the war mission. Leader and his wife. And we would watch like general conference in their home and they would have us over after. Like, we taught lessons throughout the day. And she was. They were just so influential in making me feel like I'm safe again. Like I feel okay as a missionary and I can do this. But at the same time, my mom started question, like bringing up doubts in our calls about the church.

John Dehlin [02:07:02] Before we get to that, let me ask you. You mentioned in your outline.

Rian Anderson [02:07:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:06] Getting up the courage to talk to your mission president about your depression. Have you already told us about that?

Rian Anderson [02:07:10] No, I haven't.

John Dehlin [02:07:10] Is that before your mom's?

Rian Anderson [02:07:12] Yes, that was in either my third or fourth. It was with my companion I was struggling with.

John Dehlin [02:07:17] Okay.

Rian Anderson [02:07:17] And I realized, sure. Yeah, I was really. Obviously I was really struggling. Like every morning you're just. I would dread the alarm going off. So I was very fearful of like expressing this to my mission president because I felt a lot of guilt and I felt like I should be like, enjoying my life and I don't know, enjoying service. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:44] What were the biggest symptoms then? Not. Not wanting to wake up.

Rian Anderson [02:07:47] Not wanting to wake up. Food was really hard. That companion was very, like, just weird about food.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:53] Food.

Rian Anderson [02:07:53] Like, it was my first introduction, like diet culture and like what that was. And I'm. I've always had a difficult relationship with foods. Like, it was even more so. And I think it's also because it's something you can control. Like it's one of the few aspects of your life you can control.

John Dehlin [02:08:08] You're going to say restriction.

Rian Anderson [02:08:09] Yes. So I. That was definitely something. My appetite was very low. I was. I was. It was difficult to like, control my emotions. Like, I would just start crying for no reason. Like, I really wouldn't know why. And obviously just the phone calls with my family on P Days were just getting like, worse and worse and like more exhausting mentally and physically. Like they were just taking it out of me. So that brought me to. It must have been my fourth transfer, my second transfer with that companion. And we have mission president interviews that are like 10 minute interviews where he meets with us at the beginning of each transfer. 10 minutes. Which, like, what can you talk about in 10 minutes?

John Dehlin [02:08:55] How often?

Rian Anderson [02:08:56] At the start of every transfer. So every six week. Chunk.

John Dehlin [02:08:59] Okay.

Rian Anderson [02:09:00] You. You meet with them for 10 minutes? Yeah, for 10 minutes. But I walked in there and he was like, how you doing? Like, you look great. Like, you look like you're doing good. Seems like you're doing good. And I was like, I'm actually, like, really Struggling. And I'm kind of feeling like, I'm worried. I want to go home. Like, I didn't say I want to go home, but I was like, I'm worried. I want to go home. And he just sat there and he was like, can I be honest with you? And of course I'm like, yes. Like, please, please just tell me the answer to my problems. And he just looked me in the eyes and was like, you are being prideful. Like, you are prideful and you need to lose yourself. Like, you need to let go of wanting to go home of, like, these worldly things. And you need to, like, be more in with missionary life. Like, you need to stop worrying about family and about how you're feeling. And, like, he just put it back on me. He shamed me, really. So I walked out of that interview angry. That was like, the first time on my mission where I was like, I'm angry. Like, he should not have told me that. But then after, like, a little bit, it was like, yeah, of course I'm prideful. Like, that is why I'm feeling this way. Because every time I talk with my family, this is how I feel. Like, every time those things that are familiar and, like, of the world, this, they are bringing up those feelings. So, yeah, I am prideful. I'm thinking of myself in these moments.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:01] Oh, I see. So in that way, that connection to self is the shameful part.

Rian Anderson [02:11:07] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:07] Your link to yourself and your experience is the shameful part.

Rian Anderson [02:11:13] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:13] Got it.

Rian Anderson [02:11:14] Yeah. And instead of realizing that was really harmful and toxic thing to say to someone who's experiencing depression symptoms, I just buckled down and like, went, that's right. More. And like, experienced more of that loss of self.

John Dehlin [02:11:34] When you were. When you were telling us that, I saw tears well up. What were you feeling as you were telling us, his reaction to you, what were you feeling? I mean, you said anger, but totally. Why?

The Mission President's Control Over Therapy

Rian Anderson [02:11:46] Very hurt.

John Dehlin [02:11:47] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [02:11:48] I mean, every time that's like. It's interesting because I had a lot of other, like, kind of more traumatic things happen on my mission, but for some reason, that experience was like, soul destroying. Like, it was like, I cannot be me. Like, I'm not allowed to want things. God doesn't want me to want things. He wants me to just want him.

John Dehlin [02:12:15] And you're. You're. You just said God.

Rian Anderson [02:12:17] Yeah. Yeah. Because my mission president was talking for God in my eyes, and I. Going on a mission, I loved who I was. Like, I really valued how independent I was and, like, how I loved being creative and, like, Accepting of people. But it was in that moment where it's like, I have to change. Like, I guess God wants me to change, to be this robot that I didn't want to become. But I guess that's what I have to do to have a successful mission and be successful in his eyes.

John Dehlin [02:12:57] And I'm gonna never stop saying this. It. I'm. I'm generally a free speech person, but to say that you speak for God to somebody else, for them should be illegal because it's too much power.

Rian Anderson [02:13:09] I agree 100%.

John Dehlin [02:13:12] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [02:13:12] Yeah, I agree.

John Dehlin [02:13:13] Yeah. And it's just. It leads to coercion and abuse.

Rian Anderson [02:13:18] And I try to hold that he was doing what he was told he was supposed to be doing, like he's a victim of the system, but also holding that it was not okay what he did. And it was extremely hurtful, extremely traumatic. And it hurt not only me, but, like my family too. So

John Dehlin [02:13:44] it hurt your family, that response?

Rian Anderson [02:13:46] Well, I think further down the line, yeah. But my mission as a whole. Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:53] So, so powerful. And I think in that moment too, I can. I don't know, I'm feeling from you this almost last shift shred of hope. Like you're going saying it feels like, help me. Can you help me? And that his response is just not only shaming, but also just like, you're not allowed to have needs. Like, get over it, erase yourself, you're not allowed. Which I can just think about that becoming a part of you and something that would be hard later on to really work through.

Rian Anderson [02:14:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:35] So. Yeah, so sorry.

John Dehlin [02:14:38] And then you talk about your mission president's relationship to your therapist. You want to talk about that?

Rian Anderson [02:14:44] Yeah. I realized pretty quickly and heard from other missionaries as well that like, my mission therapist was having conversations with my mission president and his wife about what I was saying to her and like, what I was going through. I don't think, like, specifics, but definitely, like, what I was expressing to her in, like, my struggles.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:08] So breaking confidentiality. And.

John Dehlin [02:15:10] And I just have to say, like, week one, you know, as a therapist, you're trained to never violate client confidentiality. That's like the first. In the first time you meet with a client, you say everything we say is between us, but with the exception of, like, if you're going to kill yourself or harm somebody else other than that. And you're telling me that your mission president was freely communicating with your therapist and vice versa.

Rian Anderson [02:15:40] I believe so, yeah. Yeah, it seemed that way.

John Dehlin [02:15:43] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [02:15:44] And I think that's why I Wasn't called into a leadership position until later in my mission, I probably would have gotten called sooner.

John Dehlin [02:15:52] And how can it. How can you have an effective engagement with the therapist if you're worried that if you're honest with your therapist, it'll affect your leadership status as a missionary?

Margi Dehlin [02:16:01] It.

Rian Anderson [02:16:02] It's all so intertwined in, like, just this fear. Like this constant fear and anxiety of, like, everyone around me is just, like, watching me and, like, knows my deepest secrets. It kind of feels so. It's like, yeah, I can't even be fully honest with her, even though I tried my best to do that because it was such an outlet for me, someone who felt unbiased in my situation, even though that's not how it was, but that's how it felt in that moment. And I really. I valued her a lot. But I now know, of course, that shouldn't be happening at all.

John Dehlin [02:16:43] No.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:45] Yeah. Yeah. That sense of loss of control over your own situation is just. It's so coming through in your story and that these. That, you know, these touch points of people who could have helped, in the end, their responses to you make you more fearful, more afraid, and they have such power over you in determining something as, like, you know, pivotal as being sent home.

Rian Anderson [02:17:20] Totally.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:20] Right.

Rian Anderson [02:17:21] Yeah, I agree.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:22] So my question for you is just kind of walking out of that meeting that you had with your mission president and then kind of moving forward from there.

John Dehlin [02:17:32] How.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:34] How would you talk about your relationship with that mission president? And did that change you in the way that you related to your mission president?

Rian Anderson [02:17:45] For sure. I think that moment of, like, anger stuck with me, like, deep down. But ultimately taking his advice as God's word for me, like, tighten that relationship and tighten my hold to everything he said, even if it did feel wrong, like Christ, like, correction was a huge deal for me. I really hated that and I hated how it made me feel and how it made others feel. And when he would push that, that anger would come back up. But ultimately my relate. I just trusted him more because he was honest with me.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:24] Right. That's right. So it was like you would have the anger piece, but you would have the obedience response.

Rian Anderson [02:18:32] Yes. To it, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:35] And listening to him, like he had the truth about you.

Rian Anderson [02:18:39] Yes, definitely. Definitely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:43] I'm so sorry. That's just. Yeah. That just adds insult to injury, basically.

Rian Anderson [02:18:49] Yeah. And it kept going. It just because in that transfer with my. Really, really. She's still. I treasure her as a friend. In Vista is my mom. The relationship with my mom started splintering.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:07] Okay.

Rian Anderson [02:19:08] As she explained these doubts.

John Dehlin [02:19:10] Yeah. So what was that? Like? What's it like for a missionary to have their mom call and say, I'm doubting the church?

Rian Anderson [02:19:17] Heavy.

John Dehlin [02:19:18] Do you want to tell us. Tell us about that call. Tell us about that call.

Rian Anderson [02:19:22] Well, it was a. It was a number of calls of just, like, her starting to bring up these concerns. And, like, I can't remember if she asked to be released out of the young woman's presidency or not, but I'm pretty sure she did. And it was, like, so concerning to me because I had left these parents who I, like. I want to say worship, but, like, looked up to in every sense of, like, being good members of the church. And leaving the church was never even an option that came into my mind. Like, it was never a thought. So it was very concerning. And with that came a lot of guilt because I knew I had been expressing the struggles I was having as a missionary. I knew I had told her about, like, my struggles with the temple. Like, all these things I was putting back on myself. Like, I was the reason why she was struggling. So there was a lot of guilt. And also, like, how much should I not tell her? But also, how can I live not telling someone what I'm feeling in, like, an honest way? So it was okay. And then my next transfer, I got moved. We. We got taken out of that area, which was, like, so heartbreaking. It was just such a. It was a terrible time because I loved my companion. She was just so wonderful. Just find, like, someone I connected with, and, like, we taught well together, and we were really successful in that area. And then they took us out and put elders back in. And the first of all, the ward was, like, so upset, but also, we were just, like, destroyed with that loss of a relationship. And my mission president also had the role of. Once you leave an area, you can no longer talk to any of the people you taught. You cannot talk to companions. Like, you're cut off from all those people until you get home from your mission. Oh, I see. So it was like, a complete loss of relationships.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:22] Right.

Rian Anderson [02:21:23] So when these losses were happening, it was like, I held tighter to these calls on Monday because it was like, someone familiar, someone who knew me.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:30] Yeah. And something regular, something consistent that stayed the same. Yes, for sure.

Rian Anderson [02:21:37] Yeah. So then my next transfer, I stayed in the Vista zone, but moved to a different ward with a new companion who I knew because she was in our zone, and she was just awesome, too. I'm so. I feel very fortunate in all my companions that were just Wonderful people who I really, really love and care about, even still. But that is the transform I found. My mom told me that she had. She wasn't going back to church. And I remember we had a little, like, deck or porch outside of our apartment. It was a pretty nice apartment. And I was just talking to her, and she just said, I'm so sorry, but I don't think I'm going to be going back to church. And it was another one of those moments that was just, like, shattering. And I just obviously started sobbing. And she was apologizing, and I was like, it's okay. Like, do what's best for you. And I. I think I ended the call pretty quickly after she said that.

John Dehlin [02:22:49] Did you want to ask her why? Did you have any interest?

Rian Anderson [02:22:52] I did not want to know why, but in some ways, I knew why, because it was me. Like, it felt like me. It was my experience that caused her to leave. So it was, like, so much guilt.

Pressure to Go Home Early and Family Faith Crisis

John Dehlin [02:23:06] Your experience?

Rian Anderson [02:23:07] Because I was ex. Like, explaining all these struggles with being a missionary and the church involved with that. Like, why is my mission president telling us to do all these weird things and, like, all these rules and, like, how much I was. She was seeing how. How much damage was being done to me.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:24] So you were thinking, my mission, my sharing my mission is causing her to. Caused her to leave. Which almost has an overlay. Did it with the mission president being like, you're selfish.

Rian Anderson [02:23:37] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:37] You're selfish.

Rian Anderson [02:23:38] So it was so knit together.

John Dehlin [02:23:41] Oh, so you can't just have a horrible experience on your mission now Your horrible experience is ruining other people's eternal salvation.

Rian Anderson [02:23:48] Exactly. Well, I'm people you love most to be, like, saving people and, like, bringing them to the church.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:53] Oh, that's just so much to hold.

Rian Anderson [02:23:55] Yeah. So I just. I remember after that call, I just, like, sat in the bathroom, turned the shower on, like, sobbed, like, on the floor of our bathroom for, like, hours. Like, at least two or three hours. I was just, like, sobbing. And I was, like, praying to God and, like, so angry. Like, why in the world would you do this to me? To, like, my family that I care so deeply about. And I was just so broken and hurt. And I ended up telling my mission, asking my mission president if I could call him and talk to him on that p. Day. And I explained, like, my mom is leaving the church, and I. I don't know how to function. Like, I. I think I need to go home. And he was like, well, I'm gonna put you in contact with my freshman year seminary teacher. Like, with my. My family friend. And so I was able to talk to him. And it's interesting, his mom also left the church, so he had that experience. Same experience as I did. Oh, interesting. Okay. So it was really helpful to be able to talk to him and, like, be like, it's gonna be okay. Like, you'll still have a relationship. It'll be okay. But. Yeah. And then just trying to find ways to keep being a missionary. It really just took, like, shoving all the feelings down and, like, avoiding it.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:36] Okay.

Rian Anderson [02:25:36] To move forward. But that conversation with him was really helpful, and I'm grateful my mission president did put me in contact with him, because that was really helpful. But also it was reinforced that I needed to stay very strongly, because at that point, I started bringing up to my therapist that I wanted to go home. Like, I. I think I need to be there for my family. Like, this seems like a really tough situation, and I want to be there for my siblings and, like, my dad and my mom. Like, I just want to be home. And they're like, well, what are you gonna do if you go home? And I was like, be with my family. Like, I don't know, love them. And they're like, that's. You're doing that from here, so, like, why would you go home? So. And I was so, like, unable to advocate for myself at that point. That was like, okay, like, I can't fight this. I can't fight you telling me not to go home, so I'm just gonna keep going.

John Dehlin [02:26:32] Did your mission president give you any advice about how to. How to deal with your parents losing their faith?

Rian Anderson [02:26:40] Well, he questions my. He questioned my mom's mental health multiple times.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:45] Oh.

Rian Anderson [02:26:46] She was like, is she, like, okay, does she, like, need, like, mental help? And that was, like, so confusing to me because, first of all, he doesn't know my mom.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:57] Right. And so it's implied.

Rian Anderson [02:27:00] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:01] Having a struggle or leaving was tied

Rian Anderson [02:27:04] with, like, mental health, mental stability. Yeah. So I just thought that was a weird comparison. I don't remember really getting any advice at that point besides, like, don't talk to your mom about church stuff. Okay. And then.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:23] So he's basically creating distance between you and your family and your parents, which is another classic tactic of a high demand religion or cult is to. Is alienation from family.

Rian Anderson [02:27:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:27:37] And that's the beginning of psychological alienation, I'm guessing, from your parents.

Rian Anderson [02:27:43] Totally. Yes. That was definitely the start of, like, a break of trust and a shift in how we interacted with each other.

John Dehlin [02:27:52] Is she crazy? Don't ask her why.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:54] Yeah, it's like, is your mom unwell?

Rian Anderson [02:27:57] Exactly. Exactly. And I trust my mission president.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:01] Right.

John Dehlin [02:28:02] So it's like, because it's God. He must know because he's basically representing.

Rian Anderson [02:28:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:08] It's way too much power.

Rian Anderson [02:28:09] It's too much.

John Dehlin [02:28:10] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [02:28:10] Especially for someone like him who's. Knows how to, like, work a system, pull the levers.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:16] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:19] Okay, so how did that affect your calls to your mom or dad?

Margi Dehlin [02:28:24] We.

Rian Anderson [02:28:25] You could see it was uncom. I would just say it was uncomfortable. I didn't know how to, like, talk to my mom, which was so weird because we'd been so close my whole life. But it was like, now she's like, against the church, which is like the worst of the worst. Like, how is that even possible? But she's my mom and I love her, so I need to trust that she's doing what's best for her. So it was this back and forth. I go back to my journal writings a lot because that's how I remember things during this time, because it was just so traumatic. But I just shifted between, like, trusting her decision and also, like, why is she doing this? And like, I can't talk to her about these things anymore. Like, I'm alone. I'm completely alone. In my experience now there's no one I can, like, be honest and open to.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:18] Right. Because those Monday phone calls or those.

Rian Anderson [02:29:21] Was it Monday prep Monday?

Margi Dehlin [02:29:23] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [02:29:23] Preparation Day.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:24] Phone calls were your tie to consistency and to people who knew you.

Rian Anderson [02:29:30] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:31] And now you're being told you can't. Yes. Or you have to really, really restrict those. And it's also implied that the people you love most are not safe for you right now.

Rian Anderson [02:29:44] Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:46] I just have to say, like, in any other context, specifically not religious. Let's just say you love Teslas and you convince your someone else you love to. To drive a Tesla, and then you find out Tesla's explode and, you know, kill and maim the people inside. I'm making this up, you know? And you say, hey, I convinced you to buy a Tesla, but I just found something out that's lethal. You know, like, the only response for the other person should be, what? Like, tell me everything. Yeah, I don't want to die. But in the case of religion, this is your mom, the person you love and trust most. And when she tells you, this isn't. This isn't right. There's problems here. Me of all people, I. It's not. It's not. I don't think this is good. Your reaction is the opposite. I don't want to hear, like, that's. There's no world where that makes sense or is healthy.

Rian Anderson [02:30:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:47] Right.

Rian Anderson [02:30:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:30:48] It should be your. Your. If you're in a healthy organization, your response should be, tell me everything. I need to know everything.

Rian Anderson [02:30:55] Warn me. Like, let me know what you know. Like, knowledge is power in that situation. But instead, because at that point, the church was everything. Like, you don't have anything else besides the church, so you love it completely and fully, and it's your identity at that point. It was my identity at that point. So if she would say anything negative about the church, it was like, attack on me. Yeah. Now that she left, like, before that point and we were, like, expressing doubts, it was fine. Like, we were just validating each other and it was comforting. But then she left and it's like a whole shift, which she started. She sent me a few emails containing, like, things about the church that she had found out. Like Joseph Smith's multiple vision accounts.

John Dehlin [02:31:42] First Vision.

Rian Anderson [02:31:43] First Vision accounts. Yeah. Where there's multiple accounts rather than just the one we memorize and share almost every day to people.

John Dehlin [02:31:55] The 1838 account.

Rian Anderson [02:31:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:57] Way different than the 1832 account.

Rian Anderson [02:31:59] Exactly. Which I had no idea. But I was like, oh, I knew that already. That's what I told her. And I didn't even read these emails because I would just see, like, it just felt anti Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:09] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [02:32:09] Threat. Yes. So I was like, I'm not reading that. And then also she sent me, like, Stephen Hassan's bite model, and she's like, I just see so many similarities between your mission and this model and being like, why would you send me this? Because it was. It felt like a threat, like an attack on me and my experience. And I was giving everything, like, my whole soul to this effort.

John Dehlin [02:32:36] So when a parent who's losing or lost their faith wants to provide information to the missionary to help them see it too, the reaction for you as a missionary was don't, don't tell me.

Rian Anderson [02:32:53] Or like, I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:56] Just.

Rian Anderson [02:32:57] There's just so much uncomfortableness with.

John Dehlin [02:33:01] Discomfort.

Rian Anderson [02:33:02] Yeah. Discomfort, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:04] So it wasn't helpful to you?

Rian Anderson [02:33:07] Not. It's just so difficult to know because I'm very much a perfectionist and rule follower. So it was like, there's. I. I wouldn't have been able to leave my mission even if they hadn't left the church. And I was miserable, like, and I was already miserable. I wouldn't have left because I wanted to do the right thing. And the right thing felt like staying. So them telling me made it a lot more difficult. But I don't know the other side. So it could have been really difficult coming home and realizing you didn't tell me, like, you left, like, eight months ago. Like, that is really damaging as well. Which happened with my dad, like, finding out my dad had left the church as well. They told me a few months after he had stopped going. And that was really hurtful, because from

John Dehlin [02:33:59] a parent's perspective, if. Let's just say you were to get hurt on your mission because people got shot, you were depressed. Like, how could a parent live with themselves knowing that you got hurt on your mission when they might have been able to give you information that might have led you to not stay and get hurt? Like, it's hard.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:19] Can we just say that's what happened?

Rian Anderson [02:34:21] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:23] That's why Ryan's here. Ryan's here saying, it harmed me. So Ryan's mom is literally trying to do the thing to say life preserver to you.

Rian Anderson [02:34:34] SOS now. We love you.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:37] You don't need to do it, by the way.

John Dehlin [02:34:40] But then sometimes that makes. That can create the backfire effect where the missionary is more committed to staying

Rian Anderson [02:34:45] now, which happened to me. But, I mean, it was so difficult at the time. But looking back, I'm like, it makes so much sense why she would do that.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:54] Absolutely.

Rian Anderson [02:34:55] I mean, anyone who loves someone and wants to save them from something that's harming them, wants to warn them of what's gonna. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:04] It may not work, but there are moments where you have to try to live with. To live with yourself. You have to know, I did all that I could.

Rian Anderson [02:35:15] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:15] Yeah. And then the system is the thing that makes this situation impossible.

Rian Anderson [02:35:22] Totally.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:23] Just. Absolutely. Yeah.

Rian Anderson [02:35:25] Yes. Agreed.

John Dehlin [02:35:27] Oh, my gosh. I'm so sorry for you and for your parents.

Rian Anderson [02:35:30] Yeah, me too.

Discovering Abuse and a Serious Health Emergency

John Dehlin [02:35:32] So then there's the point in your outline where you discover there's abuse going on. Do you want to talk about that?

Rian Anderson [02:35:37] Yeah. So I. I was a Sister training leader at that point, and being called a Sister training leader was, like,

John Dehlin [02:35:46] yes,

Rian Anderson [02:35:47] like, amazing, because I now got to work with so many missionaries and, like, love more missionaries and create more friendships and also realize, like, other people were struggling, too. I wasn't the only one.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:01] Right.

Rian Anderson [02:36:02] And being able to, like, help people through those struggles and, like, even just, like, listening to them and validating their experience was so empowering for me, and it allowed me to, like, feel comfortable as a missionary. And also your workload, like, triples when you become a Sister training leader, you have meetings until like 10pm every night. Like so it's like you have no time to think about anything or like slow down, which is some ways really harmful. But in other ways it was really helpful because I didn't have to face any of the things I was like experiencing at the time. So I, it was my second transfer being a sister training leader and I was also, I was with another companion who I just really value and she was just really spectacular. And we were helping this lady work on her like non profit organization which already was pretty sketchy. She like helped save children like babies that weren't wanted but like find homes for them in this weird way. And it just probably wasn't the safest place for us to be. But as a missionary, any moment where you can just like help people and not have to talk about the church was like godsent like it felt so it was like a moment of relaxing, just letting them talk. And she was a talker, like she non stop talked. So it was like we could just shut off our brains and like smile and nod and just do whatever she was telling us to do. But pretty quickly into like providing service for her. We recognized that there was about five children living in the home with their grandma and then she also lived the woman who we were helping live there. And the children would never talk to us. Like they were just always feel, felt very afraid of just us. Which felt weird because children typically like really loved us and our energy and like we were just always very loving. But one of the times we went in and the, the grandma took the children to like a back room and we just heard like screaming and like crying and like things being thrown and it was like so scary. So we just left and we like got shook up pretty bad. But also we were like. Some people react differently to like I don't know, reprehending children doesn't feel right, but like whatever. And then we roped in some elders one time to help this woman who owned the organization to move things into like a separate office. And while we were helping her move, we ended up going into the garage which was a place she like never let us go. And it was like all the good feelings within me like disappeared and it was like just this terrible heavy feeling. And we went in there and these, there was like these white obviously like handmade built walls and like these padlock doors on either side. And for some reason we had to go into one of the rooms to like grab something and we went, we opened the door. And it was just, like, graffiti covering this whole room. And then this dirty white mattress, like, sitting in the middle of the floor with, like, kind of just comforter strewn, like, pillows all over the place. And, like, these weird walls and these dark drawings, like, all over. And they weren't like, framed. They were like graffiti. Like, someone had, like, spray painted on the walls. And it was dark, like, no windows, nothing. And it was just so scary and alarming, and it felt like something wrong had happened there. Like, or was happening there. Like. And obviously, as a missionary, I think there is, like, a level of paranoia that you have just because you're so on edge all the time. But the elders and my companion and I were like, something's really bad here. So we. We quickly left. We were like, we have to go. We have a lesson. And me and my companion went to the church building, and we were like, we need to call president and, like, tell them, because we feel like the police should go there and, like, check on these kids. Just, like, even if just an anonymous call, like, just, like, go have a welfare check for them. And we called him and he right away was like, do not call the police. We don't want you getting involved with any investigations or anything like that. And I was just like, what about, like, an anonymous call? Can't you just be like, I don't want anything part, but I just feel like these kids need to be checked up on? And he was like, no, do not call the police. Like, the leaders of the church have told us not for missionaries, not to contact the police.

John Dehlin [02:41:17] And even if they know that children's safety is in danger.

Rian Anderson [02:41:21] Yes. Which he didn't say specifically those words, but obviously that's what he was implying. And it just. I had this sinking feeling of just, like, these kids. Like, how can I just. Even if, like, everything's okay in a sense, like, I just feel so deeply that something is wrong. And I would just feel so much better if something. Someone, like, went and checked on them and, like. Cause something's off with that house. And he was like, just let it go. Like, move on. And then a couple weeks later, I was still just feeling, like, so scared for these kids. Like, I was like, I have to play my part in this. Like, I can't just sit back and, like, let something happen to people I am concerned about. So I brought it up in a. In a mission president interview. And then once again, I was met with, like, you're prideful, and you need to just, like, let it go. Like, God will take Care of them is really the excuse that I got told. So. Yeah, yeah. I was also really hurtful and just like denying standing for what I believed in as like an individual.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:39] Yes.

Rian Anderson [02:42:40] Right, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:41] Ethics alone.

Rian Anderson [02:42:42] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:43] Religion based, but just human to human.

Rian Anderson [02:42:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:47] And that's one thing when you're experiencing it. It's another if you understand the system wide, system wide problem the Mormon Church has of protecting abusers and silencing victims and advising family members of victims to never report to the police. It just, it's just another data point that we have that. That's the church's modus operandi.

Rian Anderson [02:43:08] Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [02:43:10] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [02:43:10] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:43:13] So you got a concussion.

Rian Anderson [02:43:15] I did. And that was the weekend before I found out my whole family had left the church. So the concussion I got, we were like, me and us and some elders were part of like a youth activity, a mutual activity where the young men and young men are together, like playing sports. So we were just playing like a game with like a soccer ball and I got hit directly, like head on by one of the elders with a soccer ball and it like knocked me down to the floor. And it wasn't a severe concussion, but it definitely was a concussion. And we called the nurse, the mission nurse, and she was like, don't go to the doctor. Just rest. Which. What is rest as a missionary? Like, there's no rest as a missionary.

John Dehlin [02:44:08] She said, don't go to the doctor.

Rian Anderson [02:44:09] Don't go to the doctor.

John Dehlin [02:44:10] What the heck.

Rian Anderson [02:44:11] Yeah. And.

John Dehlin [02:44:15] And that's been well reported. Is just mission Mormon missions not providing adequate medical care for their missionaries.

Rian Anderson [02:44:23] Yeah. And as a missionary, you're not a. You're not in the place to advocate for yourself in that way.

John Dehlin [02:44:29] You don't even have transportation usually.

Rian Anderson [02:44:32] Exactly. And you're like cars tracked. So they have like this device called a TV that like sits in your dashboard.

John Dehlin [02:44:40] If you have a car, by the

Rian Anderson [02:44:41] way, if you do have a car, which I was fortunate enough in a mission where everyone had a car which like tracks your speed, it tells you if you're speeding. It's like, check your speed is what you hear if you go above the speed limit. So they know where you're at at all times. I don't think they, like, check it, like, frequently. Maybe they do, but they know where you're at at all times, so. And also in a situation like that, you're trusting them to know what's best for you. Like, it's a mission nurse, you're assuming that they care.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:15] Yes, there is care present.

Rian Anderson [02:45:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:45:18] But they're probably motivated to keep costs down. Probably.

Rian Anderson [02:45:22] For sure.

John Dehlin [02:45:22] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [02:45:23] Yeah. I think that's their motivation.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:24] How did the concussion impact you?

Rian Anderson [02:45:29] Massive headaches and just, like, out of it for the next few days. Anytime I could lay down, I would be like, laying down. But at that point, my mission president had banned naps, so, like, we could not take naps. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:44] Did he ban Christmas?

Margi Dehlin [02:45:45] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [02:45:46] No. Seriously? Pretty much the level of detail. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:51] So, like, if you're out tracting all day and then you need to go home and just take a little nap. No naps over lunch.

Rian Anderson [02:45:57] Yeah, no naps.

John Dehlin [02:45:58] Okay.

Rian Anderson [02:45:59] Even during lunchtime or like dinner time or. Because we were. I was doing that at the start of my mission because I was. You're exhausted. I mean, you're constantly.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:08] Because you wake up.

Rian Anderson [02:46:09] You wake up at 6:30.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:11] 6:30. And then how long is your day?

John Dehlin [02:46:15] You.

Rian Anderson [02:46:16] So 6:30 to 10:30 every day at night. Yeah. Wow.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:21] Okay. So 16. No. Yeah. 16 hour days.

Rian Anderson [02:46:25] 16 hours.

John Dehlin [02:46:26] Julia's saying even Jesus took naps.

Rian Anderson [02:46:28] Yeah, exactly. Thanks, Julia.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:31] Julia knows. Julia knows.

Rian Anderson [02:46:34] Yeah. I was pretty pissed when he did that, but. So I was like, resting. But also I'd feel bad about, like, taking a nap.

John Dehlin [02:46:42] This guy sounds like a Nazi. A little bit.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:44] And you have a concussion. Yes.

Rian Anderson [02:46:47] So they were like, stay out of the sun. But it was like a rule to go on P days to like, go do an activity with like, your district, the missionaries in your area. And obviously that's typically means sports activities. So I would just be like, sitting. I was sitting in the sun and I just had, like this raging headache. Like, my head was just like pounding. But I obviously had a concussion. But there was no way to, like, take care of yourself. There's no space for that. Even though my companion I had. I was in a trio at that time, and they were so like, wanted to help me in any way they could, but they're.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:26] They have to conform to the rules.

Rian Anderson [02:47:27] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:28] So limited. And so that was on your P day, but that's your one free day.

Rian Anderson [02:47:35] Yes. So P Days are planned as well. So they're really not a free day.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:40] Oh, okay.

Rian Anderson [02:47:41] Yeah. You. That's the day you clean your apartment. You have to go to an activity with your district.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:47] So you have to go to an activity on your P day.

Rian Anderson [02:47:49] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:49] It's not even optional.

Rian Anderson [02:47:50] Yeah. I hated it because I was like, well, that's like my one day I could just like, sit down. I just want to sit down.

John Dehlin [02:47:58] I didn't have that. I didn't have that.

Rian Anderson [02:48:00] Really?

John Dehlin [02:48:00] No, no, no. No, you could do what you wanted.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:03] Yeah, that's. Yeah.

Rian Anderson [02:48:04] Yeah. So we had to do that. And then grocery store, which you have to go to the grocery store because you're out of groceries and your card only gets recharged every week. And then you have your phone call with your family. So that's pretty much the day because it ends at 6pm Got it.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:22] Wow.

Rian Anderson [02:48:22] So there's really no rest whatsoever. Yep. And then that. So I got. Got the concussion on a Saturday. And then that P. Day, I called my family and I was. I think my mom was telling me, mentioning, like, they were thinking about moving and like. Like some changes had happened and they were just kind of feeling like, maybe it's time to move. And I was like, what? And I had this idea pop into my mind that I needed to ask, like, if my dad had left the church. And so I asked. I was like, well, has, like, dad left the church? And my mom just like, nodded. And it was like, yeah, he left a little bit ago. And I was like, well, what about, like, my siblings? And it was also like, they're not attending church anymore either. And it was just complete. It felt like complete and utter abandonment.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:32] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [02:49:33] Like, I was completely alone at that point. And I just shattered. Like, I couldn't function for about three days after that. I just. It was 6 o'. Clock. Ended the call after my mom just like, profusely apologizing. And like, are you okay? Like, can we do something for you? And as a missionary, you can't tell your parents where you live or like, where your exact location is. So there's no way that you can help your child, really. And I was. Had a concussion. I was sobbing and I ended the call and just like fell onto. We were in the chapel and I just fell onto the chapel floor and couldn't function. And I just sobbed. And my companions were like, what? Are you okay? Like, can we help? Like, what is wrong? What happened? I was just like, my family isn't in the church anymore. And it was like. So I felt so broken and alone, like, completely and utterly alone. And they like, somehow got me into the car and like, drove me back to the apartment and I just laid in bed, like, sobbing. And they called the therapist for, like an emergency call and was like, she needs help.

John Dehlin [02:51:00] And

Rian Anderson [02:51:03] I. I barely. I don't think I, like, barely said a word to her. I think most of my companions spoke to her for me. But then obviously my mission president called because he found out, because my companions knew. And he was like, we're gonna get you in contact with, like, your family, friends, the people, like my seminary teacher. And. It was just so hurtful. And it was hard because I didn't blame my family. Like, I trusted that they were doing, like, what was right for them, but at the same time, I felt like I had led them out of the church and they were denying me the heaven that they had taught me. And, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just, like, denying everything they had. I had given my whole life to and was giving everything to.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:05] Right.

Rian Anderson [02:52:05] That time.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:06] That's right. Yes. That you were in many ways having this, you know, moments, it sounds like, of connection with maybe companions and. But overall, this being, you know. Yeah. Just a. Such a challenging experience for you, so that you were likely looking toward the benefit of, like, well, maybe my family will be saved or maybe this will help in, you know, in the. Not in this life, not in this moment, but maybe in the future. Right. And so in that moment, it's like, nope, not even in the future.

Rian Anderson [02:52:43] And then you're like, why am I doing this? Literally, why am I here?

Margi Dehlin [02:52:49] But also, it's like, everything I've sacrificed

Rian Anderson [02:52:51] for who I am at that point. So it's like, you're denying me as a person, and at the same time realizing, wow, heaven doesn't. I don't want to go to heaven without my family. And also, I don't want to be here. And also, I don't want to be home. So, like, there's no place for me. And that's where I had suicidal ideations start popping up, like, for the first time in my whole life. So it was just very dark. And my mission president, I met. It felt like a gift that he was, like, able to fit me in on his schedule to meet with him. But I met with him, and he just was, like, apologizing, of course, but he was also like, well, you can make your own family when you get back, like, get married, have kids. And I was like, I don't want that. I just sat there like, that's not what I want, and just kind of, like, nodded and agreed and tried my best, like, function.

Suicidal Ideation and the Mission President's Response

John Dehlin [02:53:56] But, I mean, what was the mission president's response to your suicidal ideation?

Rian Anderson [02:54:03] I didn't tell him or I didn't tell anyone on my mission, even my family. Like, I kept that to myself for sure, but it was. I was afraid to tell them, and I think I was afraid to even, like, feel that fully, but it was a constant battle in my mind of, like, I should just end it. Like, what's the point of even of living, which is just so terrible. But it was how I felt in that moment.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:39] There should be a mission protocol. If you ever feel like you want to die, pull the rip cord, go home.

Rian Anderson [02:54:46] Totally.

John Dehlin [02:54:46] Passcode did not collect $200. You go home with honor. There will be no judgment, Will. You'll return with honor. You just do not pass go hands down. Right?

Rian Anderson [02:54:57] Yeah. But I was told our mission president, like, I was prideful for being unhappy and, like, experiencing depression at the beginning of my mission. So it was, like, going back to that, and, like, well, he's just gonna blame me. It's gonna be a me issue. So I don't trust to tell him. I don't trust him to, like, take care of me. And I'm also afraid that, like, I'm gonna get damaged more by what he says.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:22] Yeah. So it's sort of like what I hear you saying, too. It's so powerful, is I don't belong here. Like, it's not safe here. And now I'm feeling like I don't belong at home.

Rian Anderson [02:55:34] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:34] So, like, there is no place for me. There is no place for me to go. So why would you, like, pull the rip cord where you're like, you know, that's not a place I feel safe going either. Because in part, they've created, you know, a place where you can't really trust your family either.

John Dehlin [02:55:53] And my good friend told me that suicidality, I mean, I. I've studied psychology, but my psychiatrist friend told me once, just made it really clear. People start to feel suicidal when they feel like they have no way out.

Rian Anderson [02:56:06] And that's how it felt.

John Dehlin [02:56:08] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [02:56:08] And that's when my mission president started advising me to stop contact with my family. They're like, don't call them on p days. Like, you need to, like, cut them out of your life, really, is what it felt like. Like, you. He even told me, like, don't go home to them. Like, fly to some. Fly home somewhere else when you end your mission. Yes. Like, started making plans for me to, like, not see my family when I got back. He was like, are your grandparents still members of the church? And they were. And they played a part in more separation from my family. And just the way they're like, yeah, you can just stay with us. Like, and also played into, like, your family's missing out on these blessings, and, like, you need to save them. And now it's your job to, like, get everyone back to heaven. And, like, I was just being told from these people I trusted to care for me and care about my experience and what I was feeling, telling me to do these things that shocked me. I was like, how in the world am I not gonna go home to my family? That's what I've been looking forward to since day one. Yes. But now it's like, there's no family. It felt like there was no family to go back to, which is silly, because obviously they love me and, like,

John Dehlin [02:57:33] care about me more than he does.

Rian Anderson [02:57:35] Yes. Hands down,

John Dehlin [02:57:39] more than the church does.

Rian Anderson [02:57:40] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:40] But that's the power I think, of, you know, an isolated environment with a lot of control and a power dynamic and a certain aspect of perceived survival at risk. Right. That you're like, I have to do what I have to do. I have to do anything they say I have to do.

Rian Anderson [02:58:05] Yeah, Yeah. I mean, you're, like, drowning in what they're telling you. Like, there's no other way out. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:16] So what happened?

Rian Anderson [02:58:18] I had some health issues. More health issues. The major one was I had an ovarian cyst burst, which is fascinating because one of my companions almost died from that. And, like, had to be sent home for a month, like, receive surgery a year prior to me being her companion. And I just. It's one of, like, the worst pains. Imagine. It's like you're boiling from, like, the inside out, and it's like a knife is, like, being. Like you're being stabbed. Like, it's just such a terrible pain.

John Dehlin [02:58:58] Does it bleed? Is that how you know it happened?

Rian Anderson [02:58:59] No, it doesn't bleed. So I. I know that it was ovarian cyst, because I had another one rupture a year after my mission. And it was the same experience, same pain.

John Dehlin [02:59:10] Stabbing pain?

Rian Anderson [02:59:11] Yeah, just stabbing, extreme pain. Like, not able to get off the floor. And I started having that pain when I was at a member's home. So I was, like, kind of nudging my companion. Like, we gotta, like, go. Cause I'm in a lot of pain. So just, like, teach. Finish teaching the lesson. Of course, because members come first. And then we, like, quickly left. And I was like, I gotta go home. Like, I'm in extreme pain. Like, it hurts. Every step is, like, agonizing. And then I just. I ended up. We got to our apartment. I just laid on the floor in a ball, and I was like, can you. I had a heating pad that I brought with me, and I was just, like, hugging that. And we called the nurse, the mission nurse, and she said, well, just wait it out. See if it gets any Worse. Just want to make sure it's like, not appendicitis, but don't go to the doctor. Just call me if it gets worse. And at that point, I have no strength to, like, fight what anyone else is telling me to do.

John Dehlin [03:00:21] So the medical person tells you not to go to a doctor?

Rian Anderson [03:00:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:00:26] When you have an ovarian cyst rupture.

Rian Anderson [03:00:28] Yes. And an extreme, like, the worst pain I've ever been in. And it just kept getting worse and worse. But I'm also like, does that meet the threshold? And growing up in a big family, it's like, you kind of obviously don't if something can be fixed at home, like, it's gonna get fixed at home. So it was. I just trusted her to know what was best. She's a nurse, so. But I just laid there. Like, she called back, I think, like, two hours later.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:04] And

Rian Anderson [03:01:06] I was like, yeah, it's worse. And she's like, just. Just keep waiting out. I think it'll pass if it hasn't, like, switched sides. Because I think with appendicitis, the pain moves. But I just laid there and all night I didn't sleep, really. Maybe a few hours, but I would just lay in the shower and, like, scalding hot water just, like, ease the pain because ibuprofen wasn't touching it. Like, it was just agonizing. And. Well, we got an extra hour to sleep in the next morning. That's all we got. So I was able to sleep until 7:30 instead of 6:30. Who made that decision? The nurse.

John Dehlin [03:01:52] She got to decide how long you could sleep in.

Rian Anderson [03:01:55] Yeah. And the pain goes away after a certain amount of time with ovarian cysts. So by the morning, I was sore but, like, no longer in pain, and we just went to work like normal. So it was just another. And I wasn't able to call my family. Like, I wanted my mom's help so bad because it's like, you just again, feel so lonely and, like, it's so painful. And you want someone who, like, knows you and, like, can take care of you. But obviously my companion doesn't know what to do. And, like, we're just listening to what we're being told.

John Dehlin [03:02:38] So you didn't call her because it wasn't P day or because you didn't have permission or because she had left

Rian Anderson [03:02:43] the church because it wasn't P day.

John Dehlin [03:02:45] Okay.

Rian Anderson [03:02:45] Yeah. Is the main thing. I would have called her if it was P day.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:49] Right.

John Dehlin [03:02:50] I don't know. She was a.

Rian Anderson [03:02:51] That's true. Maybe I Was still calling, though. That is something I. I mean, every time I would see my mission president after my family left, he'd be like, well, have you called them? Are you calling them? Like, are you talking to them? Or have you, like, stuck to our goal of not calling? And it was just, like, constant guilt of, like, not following through with the goal I'd set with him, but also realizing, like, I needed to talk to my family, like, I wasn't not gonna talk to them. But I did get to the point where he, like, agonized me. He just asked me enough about not calling my family that I didn't call them for a p. Day or maybe two. And it was the worst. I mean, that damaged my. My relationship with my family just a lot. Like, cut deep.

John Dehlin [03:03:53] Julia's fact checking. She sent me a note that says, from Johns Hopkins medicine, if an infected cyst ruptures, it can trigger sepsis, a life threatening immune response to harmful bacteria. So that's what you were facing.

Rian Anderson [03:04:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:04:09] And the church said, don't go to a doctor.

Rian Anderson [03:04:12] Yeah. And my. I had a companion who almost, like, died and did get sent home and had to have surgery because that happened to her. And the only reason she got taken to the hospital is because she passed out of the pain, which happened to me the second time I had an ovarian cyst rupture. Yeah. Yeah. But. Yeah, that's crazy.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:34] So what I'm. What I'm feeling so much for you is you're having these moments where you truly need help and you're reaching out in the way that you can for help, and you're just getting no care.

Rian Anderson [03:04:50] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:51] It's like radio silence.

Rian Anderson [03:04:53] Like, repeat it, though, over and over again.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:56] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:04:57] And it's a big trigger for me now. It's like anytime I feel abandoned, it's like breakdown, like mental panic and stress and emotion just. It's. That's a very much a trigger for me. Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:14] Yeah. And in these moments, too, I would just point out, you know, as a. As a mother, when you're. You're a child has offered themselves up, you know, this sense of just real disregard for the value of your life.

Rian Anderson [03:05:33] Yes. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:35] It's just horrific.

Rian Anderson [03:05:37] And it was realizing, like, they don't care. They actually don't care about me.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:41] They don't care. It's about the use of you.

Rian Anderson [03:05:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:44] Not about the care of you.

Rian Anderson [03:05:46] Yeah. But also I was being told that the church needed me. Like, I was someone who the church needed because I had this experience. So it's that idea of, like, God gives the worst trials to those he trusts more. And that is such a hurtful and damaging teaching because it allows you to stay in situations that are traumatic and toxic.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:12] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:06:13] And be okay with horrible things happening to you.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:17] Yeah. And it also keeps you. It's about the use in the end.

Rian Anderson [03:06:21] Totally.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:22] Because anyone who's basically having you disregard your own experience, your own harm, your own well being, wants to control you. And why do they want to control you? Usually it's so they can use you.

Rian Anderson [03:06:35] Totally.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:36] In some way.

Rian Anderson [03:06:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

End of the Mission and Coming Home

John Dehlin [03:06:43] So how much longer did the mission last and how did it end?

Rian Anderson [03:06:48] A few more. I think it was about 2. One more transfer after that happened, and I was so terrified to go home. Like, I was so scared because of all the things I'd been told and, like, I was surrounded by the church 247 for the past year and a half. So it was like going home, let alone my family moved to, like, a whole different city during my mission. So it's like I knew no one. I wasn't even able to say goodbye to, like, the home I'd grown up in and the people I loved and they had moved to this whole different area. And also they were no longer supporting what I had been taught my whole life and what I'd experienced before I left on my mission from them. And it was scary.

John Dehlin [03:07:40] And why were your parents moving?

Rian Anderson [03:07:43] They wanted to get away from everyone we knew within the church because it was like we were such a big part of the community. Everyone knew us, everyone knew we were members. And it. My. My parent, my mom especially, had a very traumatic kind of experience leaving the church, especially with the people who loved us and loved our family. So I think leaving for them was like getting away from all that.

Margi Dehlin [03:08:11] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:08:12] Which makes perfect sense to me. But it was really difficult.

Margi Dehlin [03:08:16] The timing.

Rian Anderson [03:08:17] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:08:19] Yeah. That's a sign of a high demand religion or cult if you feel like you have to move homes as a way to stay healthy or safe after you've left church.

Rian Anderson [03:08:30] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [03:08:31] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:08:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:08:32] And that's common. Margi and I experienced that. We tried to stay two years after my excommunication. We just. It wasn't healthy for us to stay.

Rian Anderson [03:08:39] Yeah. It's kind of scary.

John Dehlin [03:08:41] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:08:42] But.

Rian Anderson [03:08:43] And it was just such a different home than what I knew before. It was like whole new people, it felt like. So I.

John Dehlin [03:08:53] Did you return with honor? Did the mission president make you feel good at the end?

Rian Anderson [03:08:56] Oh, yeah. I mean, I was. I loved the missionaries in my mission. Like, I Felt so loved. I had these deep friendships that I had with these people. I'd connect with companions and just missionaries. I'd been over as a sister training leader.

John Dehlin [03:09:12] And was it 18 months total?

Rian Anderson [03:09:15] 18 months, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:09:16] You did the full 18 months?

Rian Anderson [03:09:17] Yep. I started January 2020 and then got home at the beginning of June 2021.

John Dehlin [03:09:22] Did your mission president give you any parting advice?

Rian Anderson [03:09:26] Start dating and move in with your grandparents. It's pretty much the sentiment I got. And also, avoid talking about the church with your family at all costs. Avoid talking about the church with your family.

John Dehlin [03:09:42] And again, that's a red flag. High demand religions or cults want to limit the information you receive, especially from critics or people who are knowledgeable, so they can limit your thoughts or your questions or doubts.

Rian Anderson [03:09:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [03:09:59] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:10:01] He made me feel like I was a successful missionary, though. Like, I felt like I'd done my job and I'd been successful and I'd baptized five people, and I felt successful as a missionary and in the church.

John Dehlin [03:10:15] So the church is your home now.

Rian Anderson [03:10:16] Exactly. But I remember in the Denver airport, which is where my family picked me up, you go up escalators to meet with the people who are there waiting for you. And all I felt when I went up those stairs and saw them was, like, complete and utter love, like, which was so confusing because I was so scared to see them again. And it was an overwhelming sense of, like, relief and just love. Like, we love each other. Like, the love is still there.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:59] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:11:00] And all these things that I was being told about, like, just about my family being harmful and, like, it was just untrue, like, realizing they're the same people that love me.

Margi Dehlin [03:11:18] So did you feel like there was kind of an inner recognition that went on?

Rian Anderson [03:11:24] For sure. Yeah. And I think that was. It was a short moment of time, though, because then I buckled down back

Margi Dehlin [03:11:33] into the church defenses.

Rian Anderson [03:11:35] Yes. So it felt so good to be home. But the first moment in time when I realized, oh, they're really not part of the church anymore was I got released in the stake president's home of the new ward area they were in, and I bore my testimony to them because that's what you do before. Oh, you, like, get released. So, like, my whole. My siblings were there, my parents were there, and I, like, bore my testimony to them, and it was, like, so heartfelt. And, like, my parents were crying, and my siblings were all just, like, staring down at the floor, and I could tell they were really uncomfortable. And I was uncomfortable because I was like, oh, my God, like, they aren't part of the church anymore. And I'm seeing it. I'm witnessing it in person. And we got in the car afterwards, and it was just silent. Like, complete silence. No one talked to me. Like, I didn't talk to them. And I. I think I just went home and, like, went to my room and just cried because it was like realizing all over again that they had changed. They weren't actually the same people that I had left. When I went to California and grieving, that was a long process and still is, And it was just very lonely. But I buckled down in the church hardcore. Went to church every Sunday, went to every institute activity and lesson. I brought one of my brothers one time to institute. And I mean, dates entailed, like, scripture study. Oh, wow. So, like, I was like, the church is everything. The church is me. Because I didn't even know who I was anymore, because I didn't even know what I liked necessarily, because all that had been taken away for so long, and there's just a complete loss of identity.

Margi Dehlin [03:13:47] And how long was that, would you say, where you were so merged with this identity?

Rian Anderson [03:13:54] I was home for, like, June to September. I got the opportunity from one of my aunts to go live at her house in Hawaii for about three months while she was doing work on the mainland. And I. I took the opportunity, and that time was when I really started rethinking the church and, like, what had happened to me and what my family had, like, mentioned to me. Because my. My parents and my siblings would, like, bring up stuff about the church which would immediately, like, shut off.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:32] Sorry.

Rian Anderson [03:14:32] No, no.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:33] During that three months, they would bring up. Okay, yes.

Rian Anderson [03:14:36] Yeah. And it would just shut me off from any conversation at that point. Point. Because it was like an attack on me.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:43] And you were told not to. You were told. Right. You told to avoid those types of conversations from. I mean, the person who spoke with God. Right?

Rian Anderson [03:14:55] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:55] Okay.

Rian Anderson [03:14:56] Yeah. And I actually went to go see my mission president and his wife during those three months, me and I went with my grandma to go visit them.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:05] Wow.

Rian Anderson [03:15:06] And that was a really, really hard time. It was really confusing because it just felt like they were bashing on my family, and I felt a lot of love from them for my family. So it was confusing. Yeah. Almost.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:22] Did it feel a little bit like they were trying to replace the trust you at one point had and respect you had for your parents that they were trying to kind of now make them untrustworthy and be close to you?

Rian Anderson [03:15:40] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:40] Give you approval?

Rian Anderson [03:15:41] It Was kind of like, I'm the. Well, I was like, the last one with the church. So it's like they were elevating me to the standard and expectation of, like, staying strong.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:51] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:15:51] Like, it's your job now to, like, be the one who saves your family goodness. Yeah. And I don't think without moving to Hawaii for that period of time, I would have probably still been in the church.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:07] Right.

Rian Anderson [03:16:08] Because it allowed me that space from expectation, from people to start listening to myself and what my soul and heart was saying.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:16:22] That's so powerful because. Because, like, an onlooker might say, well, just go home, talk to your parents and your siblings, find out everything they found out, and freaking leave the church. But what I've learned is, like, I even have a. I have. I have friends who are twins. Two sisters spent their whole lives together till they each got married, and then one lost their faith in the church and the other twin. It kind of drove a wedge between them. But even when the second twin started doubting, she didn't ever tell her twin that she was losing her faith in the church and. Or leaving it because she wanted it to be her own process.

Rian Anderson [03:17:09] Yeah. And that makes perfect sense. It almost feels like it has to be a solo journey.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:14] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:17:16] You have to experience the loneliness of it in order to, like, come to terms with making a decision for yourself.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:27] And I think, too. I mean, it's making me think of Mary Oliver's poem, the Journey. I don't know if you know that a lot of what you're describing is kind of this in this poem. But the voices had been so loud, the external voices telling you all the things. And that could be family, too, you know, as parents. And then you've got your mission president. And so that idea of the poem is that's where this person starts, and then they walk further and further away till the voice is quiet and they're left with themselves.

Rian Anderson [03:18:05] Yeah. I mean, that resonates.

Margi Dehlin [03:18:07] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:18:09] So much, especially with that time. Yeah. Because they're so. So loud from everything around me that it was like, I get to sit with myself.

Margi Dehlin [03:18:20] And what did you hear? What did you hear?

Rian Anderson [03:18:22] In Hawaii, I attended a ward there. I think it was my second week there. I skipped church once, which was crazy for me, and then I went the next Sunday. Crazy, wild, so rebellious. But I went the following week, and I felt so uncomfortable. It was the first time when I sat in the chapel, and something within me was like, this is wrong, and this isn't serving you anymore. And I left immediately. After sacrament meeting, before anyone could talk to me, and I just sat in my car and, like, cried. And I. I don't think I formulated the thoughts at that moment in time, but I know that it was realizing, like, I didn't want to do this anymore. I.

John Dehlin [03:19:20] You never did.

Rian Anderson [03:19:21] No, exactly. But it's coming back.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:24] It's coming back around to that.

Rian Anderson [03:19:26] Yes. And really.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:27] And it's like a remembrance, hearing and

Rian Anderson [03:19:29] hearing myself, because the voices are like my mission president, my grandparents, my family, they're gone. Like, they're not with me. So it's me telling myself, like, it's not. This isn't working for me anymore. And never did. That realization came further down the line, but. And then I ended up working at a restaurant and picking up shifts on Sunday so I could have an excuse not to attend church, and I didn't attend church for the rest of my time in Hawaii.

John Dehlin [03:20:02] What did you need to make that excuse?

Rian Anderson [03:20:04] To my grandparents.

John Dehlin [03:20:05] Okay. Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:20:06] Yeah. A mission president and companions, like friends and.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:10] Right.

John Dehlin [03:20:11] What do you mean, mission president?

Rian Anderson [03:20:13] I mean, I was still in contact with them, which is crazy. Yeah. But I. They were my parent figures.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:20] That's right. They substituted in.

Rian Anderson [03:20:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:22] I think I've heard. Heard that in the past decade, the Mormon Church has started to tell mission presidents that they have a responsibility to keep their missionaries active until they die.

Rian Anderson [03:20:36] Yes. I mean, that was hugely. That's insane. I believe it because. Oh, my gosh, the endless amount of pamphlets I got about, like, daily routines and, like, checklists on things you need to do daily to, like, stay in the church.

John Dehlin [03:20:51] Where do those materials come from?

Rian Anderson [03:20:54] They looked like they were just, like, printed off online, but I'm sure there's a place for mission presidents to access those.

John Dehlin [03:21:01] So your mission. Your mission president and wife were sending you pamphlets?

Rian Anderson [03:21:06] Well, he sent me home with those, like, a big folder. So, like, resources.

John Dehlin [03:21:12] And they have to be doing that because. So, I mean, we've reported on Mormon stories. The statistic that. That 40% of Mormon missionaries are leaving the church with. Within six months of. Of leaving their missions.

Rian Anderson [03:21:23] Doesn't surprise me.

John Dehlin [03:21:24] Does that sound.

Rian Anderson [03:21:24] Yeah, sounds right to me.

John Dehlin [03:21:26] Really?

Rian Anderson [03:21:26] Yeah. I mean, none of my companions left the church after their mission, but there's definitely missionaries I was close to that have left very quickly after.

John Dehlin [03:21:40] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:21:40] Returning home. So it makes sense to me. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:46] So all those pamphlets, what did they do?

Rian Anderson [03:21:48] Didn't help. They just made me feel guilty more than anything and just, like, kept me in a system that wasn't doing anything good for me.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:02] So that Hawaii time, how would you talk about it?

Rian Anderson [03:22:07] I was living my best life. It felt like, like I was realizing good wasn't solely owned by the church. Like I was experiencing relationships with these people who had never even heard of the church, who were absolutely amazing and like shared my values and were creative and kind and respectful and actually people who liked hanging out with me and I liked hanging out with them. And they cared and valued the earth and the ocean and taking care of other people. And even though the church really claims to do that, it's in a backhanded way, it always felt like there was always a selfish reason behind it and it didn't feel genuine, but these people were so genuine and so cool. And I just, I wrote down, like, good isn't limited. Like, good is everywhere. And with that came. Letting go of the church was a lot easier because of that and realizing the church doesn't own it. Like, I can find good outside of the church.

Margi Dehlin [03:23:19] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:23:20] And I can let go of that piece of me. But at the same time, my grandma came out for a month and with that reinforced all of the church feelings and guilt and like, oh my gosh, I need to stay strong for my family. But wow, I still didn't go to the church. I still go to church. And then those three months ended and towards the end I met my now ex boyfriend. But he was just a really wonderful person and like I had my first drink of alcohol with him when I was in Hawaii for that first three months and like felt fine. I was safe and with someone who cared about me and was like watching out for me. And. I left Hawaii, like really sad to go home because I was going to be going to byu Idaho in January. I got back, I got home from Hawaii in December. So it was about a month, a little bit over a month of time I would be home before heading back to Rexburg and I did not want to go back to Rexburg. Like with my whole being, I did not want to go back to byu, Idaho.

Margi Dehlin [03:24:29] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:24:30] And then I just met someone who I really cared about and who really cared about me and I valued. So it was hard leaving that and not knowing when I would be back to Hawaii, like with this person I cared about. So I got home and I went to church one more time and there was like, it was Christmas time. So it was the sacrament meeting that they do a lot now where people who go up on the stand and like share their favorite hymn and then they'll say why it's their favorite hymn. And then Everyone sings the hymn. And I just. I. It felt like my time in the church was like, complete. Like that was it. That was my goodbye. And I left after sacrament meeting. I didn't attend the classes or anything.

John Dehlin [03:25:29] Did you pick a song? Did you have everyone sing?

Rian Anderson [03:25:31] I didn't. I just. But I love music and the hymns have always been. I felt. I always felt very close to God singing the hymns.

John Dehlin [03:25:42] When you talk about leaving the church and you getting emotional, what are those feelings that you're feeling?

Rian Anderson [03:25:48] It was a moment of choosing myself after a long period of time of listening to everyone else and doing what everyone else was telling me to do. And it was regaining a part of me that had been lost for a long time, which was so powerful. And I never went back. I haven't been back since that day. That was like the funnest New Year's I've ever had. Like, I drank and we had. Me and my family had like a dance party and it was like we were rebuilding our relationships. It felt like. Like we were coming back together as a family is starting bit by bit to feel, like, whole again, right?

Margi Dehlin [03:26:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:26:44] So you left the church to choose yourself?

Rian Anderson [03:26:47] Yes. Hands down. Yeah. And within 48 hours of being back from Hawaii, my mom asked me because I. I was immediately like, this really bad mood coming back to Colorado. And my mom was like, well, what's up? Like, are you still wanting to, like, go to byua, Idaho and like, do nursing? And I just started crying. I'm such an emotional person.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:17] But

Rian Anderson [03:27:20] something within me was like, it's not right. And it was realizing, like, I didn't have to do it, like, it was a choice. It wasn't like a response because it was feeling like a responsibility, like nursing, going back to B. Ray, Idaho.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:35] Right.

Rian Anderson [03:27:35] It was something that other people expected of me, and I realized I didn't have to do that. So within 48 hours of being Colorado, I made plans to move back to Hawaii the next month. I had started scuba diving when I was there in Hawaii for three months. And I was offered a opportunity to train with this company and start working for them. So I called them up and was like, hey, are you guys the offer still up on the table? And they're like, yeah, come out and we'll train you. So. And my ex boyfriend really helped in that process as well. Yeah. And it just. Things started working out and feeling right. Like, good. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:28:27] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:28:28] Wait, you mean when you started proceeding with the Eye of Faith, things fell into place, is that what you're saying?

Rian Anderson [03:28:35] Quite the Opposite, I feel like just like choose just listening to yourself, like listening to myself and my heart.

John Dehlin [03:28:43] Things started to work out and feel

Rian Anderson [03:28:47] peaceful and like, instead of being uncomfortable all the time and like anxious and on edge, it was like, oh, I can like take a breath and do the things that bring me joy.

Margi Dehlin [03:29:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:29:03] They say that wickedness never was happiness. And I think the most wicked thing you could do is leave the church. Well, what's been your experience? I guess you just kind of said it, but totally.

Rian Anderson [03:29:16] Yeah, no, I. Well, quickly after, like choosing to fully leave the church, I read the book under the Banner of Heaven, which is like one of my all time favorite books because it taught me the real history of the church from someone who never was in the church. And he does such a. Jon Krakauer does such a good job in doing that. But at the end, I think it's just. Even the last page of the book, there's an ex FLDS member that is discussing his journey coming out of the religion. And he explains how in the church, decisions are made for you. And it. A lot of times can be easier because they provide answers for every aspect of life and every challenge and you just get to turn things over to God and he'll take care of it. But at the very end, he says some things in life are more important than being happy and that like, thinking for yourself is what he ultimately ends up saying. And for me, that was my experience. Choosing to follow and listen to my inner self was the most freeing thing ever.

Margi Dehlin [03:30:42] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:30:42] And that's what I needed the whole time, right?

Margi Dehlin [03:30:46] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:30:46] So it's choosing me.

Margi Dehlin [03:30:48] Choice and.

Rian Anderson [03:30:50] Yeah. And while life is so much more dynamic now, like, I'm able experience fully what I wanted to life to be. Like, I'm fully able to accept when I'm sad and feel the sadness without guilt, feel the anger without guilt, experience happiness and excitement around things that maybe the church said was wrong but like, are safe and enjoyable for me with people who I enjoy being around and are respectful of me and my experience. And it's been such a beautiful thing to leave something that was so oppressive in my experience

John Dehlin [03:31:36] through therapy. How have you come to look on your relationship with your mission president?

Processing Trauma, Informed Consent, and Life After Mormonism

Rian Anderson [03:31:43] It wasn't so I returned home in June 2021, and it wasn't until the end of last year.

John Dehlin [03:31:53] 2023.

Rian Anderson [03:31:53] Yeah, 2023, when I came to terms with my relationship with him being very toxic and controlling. Up until that time, I stood up for him and his wife and I was like, they cared for me. They weren't the best for me and they were doing like what they thought was best for me. In some ways. I still think that's true. But it was the first time when I realized and felt deeply that what they had done to me was wrong. And it was such an eye opening moment of just like, wow, like these people hurt me. And actually they didn't care about me. Right. And weren't aware or paying attention to what I was telling them and experiencing. And in a lot of ways it hurt so greatly. But it was also empowering to realize that and take that piece of truth from into my body and my mind.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:12] Right.

John Dehlin [03:33:12] Did you ever contemplate telling them that they hurt you or just letting good enough be alone?

Rian Anderson [03:33:18] I actually, like last week I wrote them a letter. I didn't send it because I felt like I just don't think it would make much of a difference to them. I think ultimately they feel they did the right thing. But for me, just being able to get that on paper and identifying the ways they hurt me and I think the only reason I would send it is so that other people don't have to experience what I went through. I just don't want them to do what they did to me to other people. Which I have had other missionaries reach out to me who I served with or didn't serve with, served before me, say they experienced a lot of the same things I did from him. And I just don't want that to happen again. So that would be the only reason I would send it, I think.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:14] Right.

Rian Anderson [03:34:14] Is to hope he would change.

John Dehlin [03:34:18] But you don't have a reason to believe he likely would.

Rian Anderson [03:34:20] Yeah, I just, I just don't think he would. Yeah, yeah, he would listen.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:25] And sometimes I think it, it can be healing, part of the healing to let that responsibility for other people, which is so ingrained in us, in Mormonism, that we're responsible for other people. It's what have, like, it's part of what makes young people go out on missions. Right. Is that it can be part of healing to be like, it's not mine anymore. Like, I can just tend to myself now. I'm good. Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:34:57] Yeah, definitely that's a process for me because I, I still feel guilty around, especially my mission and just like how I reacted, but also needing to understand, like I was doing what I was being told and what I felt was best at the time. So. Yeah. And therapy has helped so much with that.

Margi Dehlin [03:35:25] Just

Rian Anderson [03:35:28] I've been diagnosed with PTSD from that time, so obviously still a big process of figuring out how to live life with the situations I was put in. But I'm able to experience those without guilt or, like, shame. So it's, it's a. There's beauty in the process.

Margi Dehlin [03:35:52] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:35:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:35:56] So I'm so sorry that all happened, but I'm also so grateful that you're courageous, willing, generous enough to share your experiences. So maybe let me ask you this. If, if there is a young man or woman who's thinking about a Mormon mission, of course you don't want to tell them what's right or wrong for them, but is what, what would you say, just in summary, to a young Mormon man or woman considering a mission?

Rian Anderson [03:36:32] It's really easy, like you said, John, to like, just be like, don't go. But I feel that it is important to make decision for yourself. So maybe even just like taking time away from family, away from church members, just taking the time to think about whether it feels right to you or not and connect with yourself. Because the mission takes a lot from you. I don't think you can avoid the mission taking a lot from you if you're going to follow the rules. So just listen to yourself. And also, informed consent has become such an important value and aspect of my life, and I desire that for every person into any situation they are entering. So listen to people's stories about their mission experiences and even though especially those out of the church, as well as, like, family members who have served a mission, because I just hope people understand what they're going to get into. And it is. You don't know what you're going to get necessarily, because every mission president is a little bit different. So I just, I just hope. People choose themselves over an organization and what others are telling them to do.

John Dehlin [03:38:20] What. Have you studied church history at all or the church's truth claims since then? When you speak about informed consent, what should every Mormon missionary know about the church's history and. Or its truth claims so that they can know that before they choose to go on a mission? What would be five or ten of the most important things you've learned that you would say, go learn these things, go read about these things before you choose to serve? What do you even have an idea?

Rian Anderson [03:38:55] I mean, I feel like there's so many but Joseph Smith and him practicing polygamy, I had no idea about that until after I decided to leave the church.

John Dehlin [03:39:07] But anything particularly problematic about Joseph's practice

Rian Anderson [03:39:11] of polygamy, that he married children and teenagers and people know that in the world. So it's important to realize that. Because people are going to bring it up and you're going to think it's not true, but it is.

John Dehlin [03:39:35] I would also say it wasn't just children. Were you going to listen?

Rian Anderson [03:39:39] Oh, no, no. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [03:39:40] I mean, other women married to other men.

Rian Anderson [03:39:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:39:44] And mother, daughter pairs and sister pairs. Right?

Rian Anderson [03:39:49] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:39:51] Yeah. So why is he marrying 12 women who are already married?

Rian Anderson [03:39:55] Who knows?

John Dehlin [03:39:56] Yeah. I don't mean to push myself into your narrative.

Rian Anderson [03:40:01] No, it's.

John Dehlin [03:40:02] People should know that.

Rian Anderson [03:40:03] No, they should. And they should be aware. I mean, that's part of the informed consent. Consent portion of things.

John Dehlin [03:40:08] Yeah. And the church admits all this. This is not. Go read the Gospel topics essay on polygamy. It's all there.

Rian Anderson [03:40:15] Totally.

John Dehlin [03:40:16] Okay. Sorry.

Rian Anderson [03:40:17] No, that's okay.

John Dehlin [03:40:18] What else?

Rian Anderson [03:40:19] I. I just want people to really take time to think about the temple and, like, research what is done and why it's done and the fact that it's Masonic and take time to think about that experience. Even for me, I'm such a feeler. So I didn't really research anything or, like, read into the history of things before leaving the church. It was more of just, like, wanting to listen to myself and choose me. So it was after coming out of the church that I started researching the Book of Mormon, the temple, Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy, Brigham Young's racist teachings, which is also something I think people need to be aware of, like, the racist history of the church and how demeaning that is to people and hurtful it is to, like, try to tell them that this is a better way to live when the church discriminated against them for so long.

John Dehlin [03:41:22] You mentioned the Book of Mormon earlier as being, like, the key to your testimony. What should prospective missionaries know about the Book of Mormon?

Rian Anderson [03:41:32] I would just recommend, like, looking into how it was written because you're. It's so. It's elevated to being like, this perfect masterpiece from God. Like, Joseph Smith was this beautiful instrument in giving us these. These words that are for our day. But in reality, the way it was written was so different than what you're told it, how it was written and

John Dehlin [03:42:06] like, in what way?

Rian Anderson [03:42:09] I mean, with the rock and the hats. The rocks in the hat. I had no idea about that.

John Dehlin [03:42:18] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:42:19] And it's. It's a hard realization to come to because the Book of Mormon is such an important piece of, for me, like, what the church meant in my life and realizing that it was a lot different than what I was told it was, was groundbreaking and, like, Earth shadowing. Shattering in a lot of ways. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:42:54] Have you ever had thoughts or feelings about, like, the priesthood being men only versus women? Or is that.

Rian Anderson [03:43:00] Not for sure? And actually started. I started questioning that during my mission when I found out, like, in the temple, men can get divorced civilly and, like, remarry another woman, but, like, yeah, in the temple. But women have to, like, get it totally, like, cut off by church leaders. And it's a long process.

John Dehlin [03:43:25] A woman has to get church approval to divorce a man in the temple, but a man just marries the next woman in the temple and the next woman in the temple with no church obstacles.

Rian Anderson [03:43:36] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [03:43:37] And that's because of polygamy, right?

Rian Anderson [03:43:39] Yeah, I guess that goes back to polygamy. Yeah. But that's. That's when I started questioning, like, priesthood. And I think it came later for me in my coming out of the church of just, like, the absolute separation of women and men and like,

Margi Dehlin [03:44:02] just

Rian Anderson [03:44:02] how patriarchal it is.

John Dehlin [03:44:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Any. Anything else? Oh, I was going to ask, what advice would you give to parents who are losing their faith or have lost their faith and either they have a kid about to go on a mission or a kid who's on a mission, because clearly it's like, darned if you do and darned if you don't. You know, it.

Rian Anderson [03:44:36] It really is. And I would think, I would say just think about your child and, like, how they might process that information being told to them and if they are struggling on their mission. See, I just. I would rather have someone be honest with me and just tell me that they've left at the moment they've left, you know, because it's. I feel like it adds more pain that, like, have being lied to about it because I kind of had both sides where my mom told me pretty much as soon as she knew she wasn't going back to church. And then my dad waited me not. Yeah, for a couple months and a couple weeks. I think it was a couple months. And that hurt probably more than my mom telling me.

John Dehlin [03:45:27] Looking back now. Are you glad she told you?

Rian Anderson [03:45:30] Yes. I wish I would have listened to what she had to say to me.

John Dehlin [03:45:35] So is that some advice to the missionaries? Listen to your parents?

Rian Anderson [03:45:39] Yeah. For sure. I guess. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great piece of advice. Listen to what they're saying. Maybe. Maybe just take a minute and like, hear their thoughts and why they're making that decision.

John Dehlin [03:45:55] Ask them questions. Ask them. Ask them why they've left.

Rian Anderson [03:45:57] Don't be afraid.

John Dehlin [03:46:00] I mean, because in Their minds. Well, a parent can't love that missionary as much as the church. If they're going to leave the church, that's what their mind's going to tell them. They must not really love me if they leave the church.

Rian Anderson [03:46:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:46:11] What's your experience?

Rian Anderson [03:46:12] They love you. They're. The church makes you feel like they're choosing themselves over you, but in reality they're wanting the best for themselves and their children and that's why they're making that decision. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:46:31] Can you tell a Mormon, prospective Mormon missionary with honesty and confidence and certainty that the church will look after their best interests and take care of them while they're on their missions?

Rian Anderson [03:46:46] I can't do that because I over and over and over again they neglected me when I needed them. So I can pretty much guarantee that they. You have to stand up for your needs and a lot of times you don't have the energy or courage to do that because of how controlling and all in you are in this environment.

Reflections on Harm, Healing, and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [03:47:19] Do you feel like your, your Mormon mission hurt you? Do you feel it did harm to you?

Rian Anderson [03:47:26] I think I'll be recovering from my mission for my whole life. I've. I have a lot of depression and anxiety. Obviously I've been diagnosed with PTSD from that time, so I have a lot of triggers and I also have struggled with like attachment issues. I have a really hard time leaving anyone I love and I, over time it's gotten better. But I used to like have panic attacks every time. I would have to like fly every back from. To Hawaii, from Colorado or vice versa. Just because you're torn from people you love over and over and over again on a mission, moving areas, switching companions and there's just a. I will never recover. I hope I will recover from my mission, but it will always be a part of me. And it hurt greatly. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:48:39] What is, what does taking care of yourself look like now these days?

Rian Anderson [03:48:45] Yeah, I think it's trying new things because I. A lot of things I loved before my mission were very wrapped up in God and showing my talents that God had gifted me. But discovering new things I love has been really fun. Like scuba diving. I was a scuba diving guide out in Hawaii for two and a half years and that was something I really loved. And I got to like teach people how to do that. And I got back into like art, but changed my style of art because I'm a new. I feel like a new person. And so just trying new things has been so. It's brought a lot of joy into my life. Despite there still being that darkness from my mission.

Margi Dehlin [03:49:44] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:49:45] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:49:45] And that's such a beautiful way, I think, to connect to and get to know you.

Rian Anderson [03:49:51] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:49:51] By trying new things.

Rian Anderson [03:49:53] I agree. Yeah. It's returning or even just like, finding and discovering myself as a person, an individual. Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [03:50:05] Exactly.

Rian Anderson [03:50:05] Which is difficult, but very exciting and fun.

Margi Dehlin [03:50:08] Yes, yes. And do you think, too, like, I do think Mormonism, even with the things that we might have loved or the talents we might have had, or even that felt tinged with a responsibility to grow that gift and bless people with that gift. So now do you find. I'm curious if you find it healing to allow the enjoyment of the thing, your enjoyment of it, to be enough.

Rian Anderson [03:50:45] Yes. And it's been a process. I. Something that I've really loved doing is hiking. And God was such a huge part of that. Like, I went to hike to, like, connect with God.

Margi Dehlin [03:50:59] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:50:59] And coming out of religion and identifying more with being, like, atheists and agnostic and losing that kind of belief, it's learning to experience things without so much meaning and just, like, being present and loving it because I love it and enjoy it and there's big emotions. Don't need to be a part of it. Like, I can just love it and be happy.

Margi Dehlin [03:51:34] Yes.

Rian Anderson [03:51:36] So for sure. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:51:38] That's beautiful.

Rian Anderson [03:51:39] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:51:42] Wow. Well, any other final words you want to say?

Rian Anderson [03:51:45] Just thank you. I mean, Mormon stories has been such a incredibly important piece of coming out of the church and, like, reclaiming the value of informed consent and, like, really making a decision for myself, so. And people's stories have just been incredibly validating and important for me, so, yeah, it's just such a gift to be able to come and do this. So thank you. Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [03:52:18] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:52:20] Oh, it's been our pleasure. This. This is going to help so many people. So. So we're super grateful and we really. Did you talk about whether, like, you still believe in God or Jesus or interested in other churches or any of that?

Rian Anderson [03:52:35] Yeah, I am. I lean more atheist. I'm very much a here and now. This is the life and valuing it for what it is. I like being present, and I think even in the church, I had that innate desire to just, like, live life for what it is and, like, love it and do what I loved, but I wasn't really allowed to do that in the church. So now it's like, I really get to just live and love humans for just being human. Like, I really get to show unconditional love. So with that, I'm. I don't necessarily Believe in a God, but it's freeing and it's a beautiful thing for me.

John Dehlin [03:53:24] Yeah. Some say that's the worst is you lose the certainty and you lose the confidence and that best friend, totally there with unconditional love. But you're saying.

Rian Anderson [03:53:33] And it's difficult, I would say, coming out of that belief. But it's more important for me to live now and be present. And it's brought so much joy and value into everyday life for me. More so than I ever had in the church.

John Dehlin [03:53:55] Wow.

Rian Anderson [03:53:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:53:58] I'm curious if I have an idea, but I'm wondering if you feel like it's a. It's a good one or not. But I was curious if you wanted to share your tattoo and the meaning of it with people.

John Dehlin [03:54:11] There's more than one.

Rian Anderson [03:54:12] Yeah, I know. I have a lot of tattoos.

Margi Dehlin [03:54:15] She did one for the interview.

Rian Anderson [03:54:16] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [03:54:17] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:54:18] I wanted to commemorate this experience. And the Truman show just feels very much like a waking up moment for me. And I just love that movie in the way that, like, you're freeing yourself from an organization that has not necessarily been helpful for you and your experience. So I got. I don't know if you. It's still wrapped.

Margi Dehlin [03:54:45] There it is.

Rian Anderson [03:54:46] But, yeah, there it is. Going up to the door. Can you see it?

John Dehlin [03:54:51] And that's Jim Carrey at the top.

Margi Dehlin [03:54:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:54:54] Saying.

Rian Anderson [03:54:55] Saying, was it good morning, good evening, or good afternoon and good night? Yeah, I need to redo that.

Margi Dehlin [03:55:02] But it's beautiful.

Rian Anderson [03:55:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:55:06] And that represents leaving,

Rian Anderson [03:55:10] leaving the church and choosing myself and to live a life free, to think for myself.

Margi Dehlin [03:55:18] Yeah. This interview reminds me a little bit of Brene Brown's book, Braving the Wilderness. In that book, she talks about Maya Angelou had a quote, I belong to myself. And it may not be exact, but the general idea was the idea of fitting in is that you always have to kind of compromise or sacrifice something about yourself. But true belonging, that we will never know true belonging with other people unless we belong to ourselves first. And that is your story. It feels like your story.

Rian Anderson [03:56:03] That's so beautiful. I need to read that. But that does.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:06] So, yeah, it's been beautiful to witness you.

Rian Anderson [03:56:10] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:11] Yeah. And you coming to a place of belonging to yourself.

Rian Anderson [03:56:16] It's been a wonderful journey.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:18] Yeah.

Rian Anderson [03:56:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:56:19] And you're only like 20. Whatever.

Rian Anderson [03:56:21] I'm 24, so. Still got a lot of life to live.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:25] So all the choices and connecting to yourself and exploring.

Rian Anderson [03:56:30] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:30] And feeling exactly the things.

Rian Anderson [03:56:34] Experiencing life in the way I've always wanted to experience life.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:37] Yeah. We wish you. All the best.

Rian Anderson [03:56:39] Oh, thank you.

John Dehlin [03:56:41] All right, well, Ryan Anderson, thanks so much for coming on Mormon Stories Podcast.

Rian Anderson [03:56:45] Of course. My pleasure.

John Dehlin [03:56:47] Stay in touch.

Rian Anderson [03:56:48] Will do.

John Dehlin [03:56:49] All right. Thanks, Margi. It's great to have you.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:51] Yes, glad to be here.

Closing Thoughts and Donor Appreciation

John Dehlin [03:56:53] And thanks, everyone, for joining us today really quickly. Thanks to everyone who makes this possible. Gerardo, Julia Maven, Brooklyn. All our staff, our board. I want to thank all our donors. You know, the primary source of financial support that we get is from our donors, and so we want to thank our donors for. For their support. We lose donors every month for a variety of reasons. So if any of you are in the position to become a monthly donor, that'll keep us going. So just go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor, and. And that'll allow us to keep doing what we're doing. We just renovated our website, so go check out our new website. We'll be making further enhancements, but it should be faster, simpler, more functional, and there's a lot more to come, so check that out. And we have a new application process. If you want to become a guest on Mormon Stories Podcast, there's a form you fill out. You leave us with the video, and it just makes it easier for us to find the right people for the right topics. So please check that out as well. And, yeah, be good to each other and be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care, everybody.

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