Introduction and Bill Reel's Background

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 779

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is August 9, 2017 and I am very excited today to be interviewing Bill Real, the host of Mormon discussion podcast Bill. Really quickly, I think I'm hearing my voice in your background. Is that.

Bill Reel [00:00:58] Let me turn her down to a little bit here.

John Dehlin [00:01:01] Okay, so we're starting really early in the morning at 7:30am Mountain Time. We've never done a podcast this early. We already have 25 people joining us, so I think we're gonna have a pretty good audience, even though people weren't expecting it. I'm really excited to interview Bill. This is probably at least the third time I've had Bill on Mormon Stories podcast. Some of you will remember that I had Bill on years ago when he was an active bishop in the Mormon Church. So it's definitely the first time I've ever interviewed a sitting bishop. Later on, Bill had a big dust up with Fair Mormon with the apologists and we had him back for that. And I think this is my third time to have Bill on Bill. Is that right? Is this your third time?

Bill Reel [00:01:48] This is third time to be on John. Grateful for the chance to sit down with you and with your audience.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] Great to have you. Really quickly while people are joining, I'm going to make just a few very quick announcements. I've received good feedback that the announcements take too long on our episodes, so I'm going to make them really quick. We have a Mixed Faith marriage retreat with Dr. Julia de Azevedo Hanks this Friday and Saturday. I'm really excited about that. Seattle, Washington will be September 14th and 15th a workshop Sydney, Australia October 20th, 22nd San Francisco Bay Area November 9th through 10th we're looking for events to hold locations to hold events in 2018. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if you want us to bring a workshop or retreat to your city anywhere in the world. And of course we have the Mormon Stories Cruise to the Bahamas October 24th through 28th, 2018. Details for all these events are@mormonstories.org events. And I'm just going to say that the reason why we advertise these events is because they help people. There are a lot of people struggling with religious transitions, with marriages, with mental health, with spirituality, with raising children. And we host these events to help save marriages, save lives, improve emotional health, etc. So that's why we announce them. We have some upcoming topics we're going to be talking about opiate addiction on Mormon stories. We're going to do more interviews on the Lamanites, a lot of more cool stories in the weeks and months ahead. So do stay tuned really quickly. The reason why we do these Facebook Live interviews is because we really want them to be interactive. So I want to invite listeners who are listening live to please start posting questions and comments live to the Facebook feed because we like to incorporate those. But in addition, I let a bunch of my listeners know that we were interviewing Bill and we have dozens and dozens of questions that have come in for Bill. So I'm really excited to have incorporated those into an outline. Finally, we're going to be interviewing Grant Palmer tonight. Grant Palmer is weeks or months away from leaving this earth, so to speak. He has cancer of the liver and he's definitely in his last few weeks or months. We did already did a tribute to him, but he has a new book out and the book is called Restoring Leaving Mormon Jesus for Jesus of the Gospels. And it's an interesting book. Two of the main things that Grant says are groundbreaking about this book, there's a chapter in the end about Joseph Smith possibly committing treason. I think that's a chapter worth looking into. I found it interesting. It may not be news for others, but it was interesting for me. And then he's got a chapter on polygamy and specifically concubinage. He says that we've talked a lot about polygamy and adultery and polyandry. What we haven't talked about is Joseph practicing what he calls in here, something like the promise of Jacob or the law of Jacob, which he's saying is concubinage. So in addition, having wives, Joseph had concubines, according to Grant Palmer. So we're going to be interviewing Grant Palmer tonight. We're going to try and broadcast that live. Yes, he calls it the blessing of Jacob concubinage. So tune into that as well. And we're just really grateful to everyone who's joined with us today. So without any further ado, Bill Real thanks again for joining us. How are you?

Bill Reel [00:05:34] Oh, great, great. John, how are you?

John Dehlin [00:05:36] Good. Super good. So we've got a ton of questions, so I'm just going to dive right in. We've only got about two hours. I think it's worth mentioning that you did an interview recently with Infants on Thrones podcast, and I listened to that. And I don't want to retread what they already covered, but I think it's interesting to talk, just retalk briefly about your early years prior to joining the church. And I got the sense from Infants on Thrones podcast that you had kind of a rough early childhood and early adolescence. Can you just talk briefly about that?

Converting and Marrying into the Church

Bill Reel [00:06:14] So I wouldn't say rough. I would say it was a ton of fun. I was a non member of the church. I didn't really go to any church at all other than for funerals and weddings. My mom was a Baptist, but she stopped going to church in her teenage years. My dad came from a household that was pretty agnostic, if not atheist. And through my teenage years, I started drinking when I was 12 years old. I started smoking pot when I was 14, and by the time I'm in high school, I'm even selling pot a little bit. And so the church just made a big difference. But my childhood was great. Played sports, just did all the fun things a kid did. Went outside and the kids don't do anymore. Went outside and built forts and hung out with cool friends and played when the sun went up until the sun went down every day.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] And the missionaries ran into you about when?

Bill Reel [00:07:08] So I met my future wife when I was 17 years old, 16 years old, working at McDonald's. And so she asked me out on a date. She's the one who asked me. I was kind of afraid to ask her out of fear of being rejected. And so she asked me out on a date. And she was lds, active in the church, and it didn't take too long before her dad kind of put her arm around me and invited me to church and really kind of got me up and running with the missionary discussions and taking the discussions with them to learn what Mormonism was all about. And I fell in love with Mormonism from the very first minute.

John Dehlin [00:07:48] Do you feel like you were kind of. Were you looking? Were you seeking? Were you in a world of pain? Was it just love? Like, what was what. What were the main draws for you when you joined?

Bill Reel [00:08:00] It was none of that. My life was. I was happy with where I was, although I can look back now and say another. Another few years of those kinds of choices and I was gonna be in a place that I didn't want to be. But at the time, I was having a blast. And so what attracted me to Mormonism really was the history and the theology and the community. Soon as I joined this church, I'm just this mustached, funky haired kid and everybody wraps their arm around me and they give me responsibilities and they tell me it's, you know, partly my responsibility to help build the kingdom of God. And so that was very intriguing, but the history and the theology were huge. The moment I started investigating the church, I start reading about Mormonism. I start reading about what, what is all in LDS theology and LDS history and just super attracted to the story of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:08:54] And as I heard in the other podcast, you sort of relished being a relatively new member, but maybe knowing more than most members in your ward about the church. Is that true?

Bill Reel [00:09:06] Yeah, I look back, it definitely was, I think, almost an arrogance. Almost a. I don't know how to explain it other than to use that word that I'm reading Fawn Brody. I know there's problems. I'm reading Book of Mormon Answer man off of the New Jerusalem site, which used to exist years and years ago, back with when AOL was in its prime and aware of farms. Whenever I went on a trip with my future in laws, I would pick up these old farm pamphlets which had the tan brown covers of paper stapled together. I just, I knew the, the basic issues that were out there. I knew the apologetic answers and felt like I was the go to guy. Whenever the missionaries had a concern with investigators bringing their minister into the conversation, whenever investigators would raise critical questions, missionaries would call me up and say, bill, you're the one we've got to take with us. And that arrogance, man, it plays into your ego. And it certainly did for me.

John Dehlin [00:10:04] It feels good to know everything, doesn't it?

Bill Reel [00:10:06] It does. Not only do you know the problems that nobody else knows, but you also know the answers that nobody else knows. And so you're right, it definitely plays into it. And, and there's certainly pride involved. And

John Dehlin [00:10:19] it.

Bill Reel [00:10:20] You kind of look at yourself as like, okay, you're in class and somebody asks a question and you know some further data points, some further historical piece of the story to bring in. And so there's almost again, I'm using the words over and over. There's obviously an arrogance there when you go to answer the question and feel like you know it all.

John Dehlin [00:10:41] Yeah, it feels good. Okay, so you advance up the ranks in the church, you become bishop, and at some Point you do an interview with me. Can you recap what was turning you on to the more difficult issues as a bishop? And just tell us if you can reflect what that was like for you to come on a podcast like Mormon Stories as a bishop? If you received any grief from it, just recap that a little bit for those who didn't listen to your original story.

Serving as a Bishop at a Young Age

Bill Reel [00:11:12] So no grief at all. I was called to be a bishop at age 29, which was obviously really young. Not Thomas Monson young, but really young and serving as a bishop again. I've always been reading the history. As I mentioned, I read Fawn Brodie before I even joined the church. And about halfway through being a bishop, I don't know what it was, John. Like, I just kept reading, kept reading my. You know, maybe it's this idea of faith development and cognitive development that my brain's beginning to process information differently, and I just wake up one day and realize that this is messier than I thought it was. Like, the apologetic answers are no longer as satisfying as I thought they were. And so I'm out there looking for answers, typing stuff into searches, looking for things. And what I think is interesting, and I think this is important to note, if you go back 15 years ago, 20 years ago, like, Truman Madsen was the historian of the church, like, he's the guy telling the Joseph Smith story, and everybody looking to him because he's giving all this neat detail. And the reality is that other scholars really are not diving into that stuff, at least not in the general view of the members of the church. And yet you fast forward to today, and a guy like Truman Matzon, no offense to him, but he would be kind of a hack of a historian today. Like, that's just not the story. And yet there was no place to go back then. And so all of a sudden, the Internet just opens up, and I'm typing in, trying to find things about Joseph's treasure digging, trying to find information about the book of Abraham. And suddenly, I think for the very first time in the history of our faith, as well as the history of this world, this information is there. It's available. Anybody can get to it. And so I think the scholars and the average member have had to kind of adapt to the fact that now we all kind of know the general background and story of what's going on in Mormonism. And it's way different than the story we presented, you know, 15, 20 years ago. And so suddenly, I'm kind of right in the mud of this stuff. And one of the things I come across is your interview with Terrell Givens and your interview with Richard Bushman, and those were life changing because at a point where I thought, oh, my goodness, this is really messy. A lot of this stuff isn't adding up. And you thought there was one way in which you had to frame Mormonism. Suddenly these two scholars come on and almost give you permission to see Mormonism a different way and to kind of put it back together in a way that nobody's ever given you the chance to do before. And for me, that was just. It was huge. Like, it opened up my brain to the idea that, oh, I can do Mormonism a little bit my way.

John Dehlin [00:13:59] So you listen to those. Those interviews while you're a bishop?

Bill Reel [00:14:02] Yeah, I listen to those while I was serving as a bishop in the church. It was much later than you had done them, but I, you know, as soon as I caught those two, then I went back through all of your episodes and picked out the ones that I thought were interesting and just listened to them. Brant Gardner, a lot of the scholars. And it was right around the time that you did the Brandt Gardner episode that I reached out to you and just as a listener said, hey, I'm a sitting bishop and I just want you to kind of play that middle road. And again, looking back now, it's kind of strange because we all see the trajectories we're on, but at the time, I'm like, why can't he just play that middle road and just be completely balanced? And that's when you reached out to me and said, hey, I've never had a sitting bishop on let's have a Conversation.

John Dehlin [00:14:44] I love it. Okay, so did you finish your full term as bishop? Did you do a full five years? Did your faith diminish or increase? Talk about how that ended.

Bill Reel [00:14:58] It was quite a roller coaster of back and forth, and I served a little over four and a half years. It eventually got to the point where in the middle of my faith crisis, I had to reach out to my stake president and say, like, we got to do something. And so it was not like, you have to release me today, but it was like, let's start working on this. And so short of five years, I was released, but honorably released. No issues or hang ups. Just essentially my stint had come to an end.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] You kind of said, I need to end. You kind of ended it. Right.

Bill Reel [00:15:32] I'm the one who pushed for something to happen, but gave no timeframe to it.

Starting a Podcast After Being Released

John Dehlin [00:15:37] Okay, so talk about what happened once you were Released. And what was the timeframe between being released and you starting your podcast?

Bill Reel [00:15:48] So I started the podcast actually while I was a sitting bishop. It was right after I got done with the interview with you, I'm guessing this is probably 2012, and got done with the interview with you. And I thought, I wonder how hard this podcasting thing is. I wonder how difficult this is to do. So I ran out to Walmart, grabbed a logitech mic, some cheap little headset with a little stick mic in front of your face, and just started recording some episodes. At first it was more of just me talking me of just sharing my thoughts on grace or the doctrine of Christ. And it wasn't long before I reached out to, like, Brian Whitney, who was a moderator on New Order Mormon and did an interview with him. And then the first well known person that I got an interview with was Brad Wilcox and we had an interview on his ideas on grace. And he's a BYU professor, well known author, just a really cool guy.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] Love it. Okay, so you started your podcast as a bishop, but you received no grief from your stake president or church leadership either for coming on Mormon Stories or for starting your own podcast as a bishop?

Bill Reel [00:16:58] No, very few people said anything. I think very few people knew. There was one member of the High Council who listened to my interview with Fair When I started the podcast, Steve Densley from Fair Mormon reached out to me pretty quick sometime in the first 10 episodes and said, I like what you're doing. Is there any chance you'd like to come on and help us with Fair Mormon's podcast? And so I did that. We hashed that out, of course, the last time, but at least the listeners would kind of get a feel for that. And I think the podcast was really uber faithful while still trying to offer some nuance. But really the nuance wasn't so much on church history as it was on more of like church theology with grace and works and the doctrine of Christ and those kinds of things.

John Dehlin [00:17:44] One technical thing, can you point your camera a little bit down because your head's kind of right at the bottom of the screen and it would let people see it a little bit better. Thanks, Bill. Okay, so what? You know, I've got some people close to me who are involved with FairMormon and not to recap the whole issue, but what happened there, if you had to summarize it, and it got to the point where they really didn't like you, like they almost seemed to despise you a little bit, what happened?

Bill Reel [00:18:16] So if I had to put my finger on one issue. It is that when you are in Fair Mormon, the idea is you can certainly hold different perspectives. And if you can give an answer that is faithful to the church, then you can even tell a different answer from your perspective that doesn't match the church's official position. So for instance, I think if the church were to have its feet held to the fire, it would probably argue for a 6,000 year old earth and for a literal Adam and Eve falling out of a literal garden at least. And again, I know there's nuance in LDS theology. I'm not naive to that. But so fair Mormon would be okay with you saying the earth is older. There's, you know, here's how you put it together, here's how they put it together. They're fine with that. What becomes an issue is if you ever state an unfaithful position. So if somebody writes into Fair and says, I can't make this Book of Abraham work, and you respond back saying like, there's these five answers, but each one of them have problems, then all of a sudden within, you know, a day or two, you get a private message behind the scenes and the top leadership of FairMormon is reaching out to you, saying, we can't say that. We have to always give an answer that is faithful to the church. And I'm saying, like, some of this is really messy and some of this, the faithful answer is either much less reasonable or at times just simply implausible. And I felt like to hold my integrity, I got to be able to state to people like, yeah, this is messy and this doesn't add up really well. And we've got the worst answer, the two on this question. But here it is, and that's just simply not allowed. I mean, so I get it. Like that's, that's who they are and that's the lines they've drawn. And in the church has a lot stronger of a relationship with them because they maintain those boundaries and I was simply outside of them and they let me go.

John Dehlin [00:20:09] What made it so personal? Because I felt like for them it was personal. It wasn't just, okay, it's not working with Bill anymore. It felt like they were kind of angry at you. What happened? Do you have a sense

Bill Reel [00:20:22] I'm kind of a fighter. If somebody comes at me, I kind of roll up my sleeves. And there were certain personalities at fair who just, just butting heads a little bit with me. And I'm trying to think, like, if I go back, I Mean, there's just certain, certain folks in the organization who I didn't like the fact that here they had given me a platform to help them with their podcast. And I'm also doing my own work. And in spite of the fact that with Steve Densley's permission, I'm posting my interviews on both my site as well as their site. And I think there were some members of FAIR that didn't understand that relationship, that I'd had permission to do that. And so they saw it as kind of me, like double dipping in a way. I think sometimes too, when I go online and I'm having a conversation and I'm asking the tough questions, the apologist will jump in and try to thwart what I'm saying. And I don't mean this with any arrogance, but I feel like I sometimes know the right question to ask to lead us down the walk of logic. And all of a sudden now I'm posting a question that they weren't ready for and a lot of times they'll duck out and then I'll get comments from them later on. I don't know, I just, I feel like they're trying to do a certain thing. And I was part of the group for a while, now I'm out and I'm very much outside the lines they've drawn for themselves. And it's just created a tension between me and them. You're on mute, John.

John Dehlin [00:21:58] Sorry, I was on mute. Do you feel like fair Mormon or Maxwell Institute style apologetics overall is good for Mormonism, neutral to Mormonism, or bad for Mormonism?

Views on Mormon Apologetics

Bill Reel [00:22:10] I think for anybody who's read the information, the data, anything that supports the dominant narrative is dying. Like, I just don't think Mormonism 100 years from now can hold anything near the narrative we're telling today. And so I think fair allows room for nuance, but I don't think it's to the extent that allows one to dismiss much of the dominant narrative. And I would simply say that there's not one single facet of Mormonism. Like we could pick any important tangent of Mormonism. And historically and theologically it has got deep problems with that piece of the story. So for me, like, to defend the old view of what a prophet is, to defend the old view of how something in church history came about, I just feel like that's slowly making its way out. And you can see that tension in the recent interpreter article where I forget the guy's name was, but he begins to kind of go after Patrick Mason and Terrell Givens and Grant Hardy. And much of the reason for him going after it is he really needs to hold that dominant narrative. And these scholars in the church who are speaking from a much, I think, much wiser position, are trying to make room for that narrative to slowly go away. As Patrick Mason said, the truth cart is overloaded and much of it is rotting and falling out.

John Dehlin [00:23:38] Have you met people who have told you, as they've told me, that apologetics was their gateway and in some ways accelerated their disaffection from the church?

Bill Reel [00:23:51] I got a number of that a while back, maybe in the early years, and I still see it. I just saw two comments from listeners of my podcast last week who said that Fair Mormon was the gateway into all this messiness because they went in looking for one issue and saw a thousand more. But right now, what I'm experiencing, of every hundred people who are messaging me or contacting me, I would guess about half are pointing to the lds.org essays as the. As the gateway into their faith struggle.

John Dehlin [00:24:24] Yeah, I get that a lot, too. In some ways, the Church is darned if they do and darned if they don't talk about the difficult issues really quickly. What do you think I call it? You know, you mentioned Patrick Mason, Richard Bushman, Terrell Gibbons, Grant Hardy. I've coined that new group of faithful scholars, neo apologists. And what I mean by that is, and there's maybe multiple waves of Mormon apologetics, starting with maybe BH Roberts or Hugh Nibley, and then obviously farms and then Fairmormon and then now the Maxwell Institute. And a lot of the old classic Mormon apologetics relied on ad hominem attacking people, relied on really bad answers to questions like, you know, horses. When they said horses, they meant tapirs. When they, when they said steal, they meant obsidian or whatever. You know, even, even the stuff that Brian Hales is now saying that yes, Joseph Smith practiced polyandry, but he didn't have sex with any of his polyandrous wives. Just really bad, you know, seemingly unethical. But in any case, illogical and awkward and unsatisfying answers, along with a lot of sort of sharp elbowed ad hominem. I call that kind of classic Mormon apologetics. Daniel Peterson, Lewis Midgley, Brian Hales, Laura Hales, etc. And then there's sort of this new branch of apologetics, I call it neo apologetics. It attempts to be pastoral. It doesn't attack people directly. It doesn't attempt to give really awful, illogical answers to gospel questions, but they're trying to still uphold the Brethren's authority. And from a scholarly, almost poetic or humanities perspective, they're trying to recontextualize Mormonism such that it can still be true, even though it's deeply problematic. And I'm just wondering what's your assessment of what I'm calling neo Apologetics of Mason and Givens and Bushman and the like.

Bill Reel [00:26:40] So you mentioned they're trying to maintain the authority while also validating that this is really messy. The critics have better answers on some of the questions. We've overreached on a thousand issues. We have to redefine profit. I mean, you can go on and on, but you hit on it when you said they're trying to maintain authority, which I think is tough to do. And here's what I mean. The old style of apologetics maintains the idea that these men have a direct line to Jesus Christ and to Heavenly Father and we can trust them to lead the Church. The new way of what you're talking about in neo apologetics, if you follow Mason and Givens and Grant Hardy and allow the way they put it together to just walk its logic all the way out, it's certainly much more empathetic, much more kind, much more loving. The problem I think the Church is going to have is it also is going to require all of us to rest more on our inner authority inside of ourselves, our gut, on what's right and wrong, and to look less to outer authority, which I think the Brethren really want to maintain. And so I love Mason, I love Givens, I love Grant, I love the things they're saying. But it should be noted that once we say this is a really big mess, prophets thought they were talking to God and they got it deeply wrong. So wrong that it hurt people and at times even distorted the nature of the Godhead. And that members of that time looked to those prophets and also felt the Holy Ghost, thinking they were teaching right, and only to have all of that turn out to be disavowed later on when it comes to, like, race and priesthood or Adam, God, all of a sudden you're saying, like, how do we know if these guys know if they're feeling the Holy Ghost or if they're speaking to Jesus when they think they are, and they get it terribly wrong. And so the neo apologetics, while empathetic, is going to require us as a church moving forward to relinquish some of the hold that the Brethren in terms of authority have over the membership.

John Dehlin [00:28:50] But what about the idea that they're still basically saying, yeah, it's messy, but still pay, pray and obey. Is there a downside to that? Is that, okay, what are your thoughts on the fact that they're still carrying water for what I know you believe to be abusive and unfounded doctrines and policies and practices?

Bill Reel [00:29:13] I think Mason and Givens and the like, I think they do a fair job acknowledging that the church could be getting it wrong right in the here and now and that people are being hurt, perhaps unnecessarily. I don't feel like they're justifying the things that you and I would agree, like the church is maybe unhealthy in this area. I just think their position. If the church wants to maintain its authority and status quo as it has today, I don't know that the Mason's and Givens position is tenable unless the church decides, like, okay, we're gonna move more towards a church that's good rather than a church that's true. And I think that's where the Mason and Givens position slowly leads us. And I don't know if the church wants to go there. And so they're obviously, you know, they're obviously giving some support to fair Mormon in the old style of apologetics. As unempathetic as that style is, it maintains their control of the dominant narrative.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] Carl Youngblood says, I don't think the new apologetics are as black and white about the prophets as I, John delande, am claiming. That's probably true, Carl. I'm trying to summarize, and I'm sure as many people as are advancing neo apologetics, there are different perspectives of and opinions, so. Fair point, Carl. There's going to be a variety of views. I do still think, at the end of the day, Bushman's claiming that there were golden plates. Terrell Givens, you know, believes there were golden plates delivered by an angel. Patrick Mason is still saying that we have unique priesthood authority that nobody has. And so at the end of the day, they're still saying, pay your tithing. They're still saying, follow the brethren and give your time, money and reputation to the church, even if things are a little bit nuanced.

Bill Reel [00:31:11] Let me ask you, John, if the church had a safe space for people to not believe that there were gold plates, would Givens and Mason and Hardy and Bushman, would they still hold that position?

John Dehlin [00:31:27] Yeah, I think so. What do you think?

Bill Reel [00:31:30] I don't know. I'd be interested to hear it. I think these voices take Mormonism as close to the line as they can while still being safely far within the edge.

John Dehlin [00:31:43] So are you saying they're not. Are you saying they're being a little bit duplicitous, that they're hiding what, their true beliefs? Or do you think they're putting all their cards on the table and being fully sincere?

Bill Reel [00:31:56] No, I think it's the third answer, which is that when we want something to work within our life, we figure out ways in our mind to reconcile those things to a point that we can hold the positions we want to hold. And so for these guys who are deeply influential within Mormonism and who love the church and who want to have that continued influence in it, like, you have to hold certain positions. So I don't think it's dishonest on any level on their part, but Mormonism has made it clear that as of today, right now, there's a certain line where once you cross it, you're no longer a safe voice inside the church. And I think these men in their minds come to intellectual positions as well as emotional positions that they want to hold. And I think we all do it.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] Sure. All right, this has been great so far. Bill, what if you had to list what the most important. This is a question from a listener. A question from a listener. What have been the most important resources? People, podcasts, books, movements, whatever. What have been the most influential components to your transition over the years? If you just had to list them chronologically or whatever.

Faith Development and Influential Resources

Bill Reel [00:33:14] Sure. The single biggest thing that's been influential, John, has been being aware of faith development. Being aware that there's a process here, that it's normal. Being aware that what a religious institution sees as falling away is actually seen within psychology and social sciences as development and progress. And that that understanding has taken a huge burden off my shoulder as well as a huge burden.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] What resources have given you that awareness, I guess, is what I'm asking.

Bill Reel [00:33:44] Sure. Certain documents. There's a document authored by a guy by the name of John Pauline, Stages of Faith. You, Tom Kimball and Dan Witherspoon did a four part episode on Stages of Faith. Loved that. That was kind of one of my entries into faith development. Thomas McConkie is a good friend of mine. Having conversations with him have been beautiful in helping understand that process. There's a book titled Faith Shift by Kathy Escobar, another book titled Faith Beyond Belief by Margaret Placentra Johnson. Just beautiful works of helping me see both within Mormonism and outside of Mormonism, what faith development is. Again, the Bushmans and Gibbons interview were really great along the way. Gina Colvin's interview with Greg Prince, where I just thought he was so vulnerable and just laid his thoughts out on the table was helpful. Anything that I can get my hands on that helps me get deeper into history or again, into faith development, I just eat that stuff up.

John Dehlin [00:34:55] Any podcasts, other podcasts you've listened to in your journey that have been influential?

Bill Reel [00:35:04] Radiolab, which is non Mormon. I don't know if you've ever listened to that one. It's. It's really good in terms of just taking kind of these odd, quirky things in the world and dissecting them and helping us see that. Another one is the you're not so smart podcast, which goes into great. Yeah, goes into great detail about the backfire effect.

John Dehlin [00:35:21] Yeah, that's a great episode.

Bill Reel [00:35:24] Confirmation bias and belief persistence. It almost helps you just deconstruct, step by step, why we believe what we do and why we fight so hard to keep it.

John Dehlin [00:35:34] Any Mormon books that have been influential?

Bill Reel [00:35:37] D. Michael Quinn, Mormonism in the World, Magic View, Greg Prince's David O. McKay book in the Rise of Early Mormonism, Michael Quinn's Origins of Power, although my more favorite is the Extensions of Power book. But anything Quinn writes is just gorgeous.

John Dehlin [00:35:57] Okay, what about Cesletter? Has that been influential to you at all?

Bill Reel [00:36:04] Not in terms of giving me anything new, but in terms of one place where it's just absolutely all thrown up against the wall and gives you kind of a place just to go and say, like, yeah, I mean, it's not just one or two things, it's a hundred things, if not a thousand things. But no, not in terms of new material.

John Dehlin [00:36:24] And then just really briefly, before we dig into your podcast, what do you observe as being the most important movements or resources or people right now that are influencing your listeners in Mormonism?

Bill Reel [00:36:40] What are the most influential pieces to the listeners? I think the average listener to my podcast is the average listener to your podcast and other works within Mormonism. Everybody's just trying to figure this out. And so whether you're out of the church and trying to justify why you left, whether you're in the church and trying to justify why you stay, I think that the general audience is pulling in, whether they're reading the books that I've talked about, whether they're listening to Mormon stories, whether listening to a thoughtful faith or Mormon matters or Infants on thrones, I just think that the conversations that are happening, people are just looking for authentic voices and vulnerability and people to speak to just how messy this thing is.

The Podcast: Audience, Topics, and Revenue

John Dehlin [00:37:24] All right, let's Dig into your podcast. Why did you start it?

Bill Reel [00:37:30] So, to be completely honest, John, the reason I approached you the first time was I thought you were getting a little too critical. And so I felt like, okay, I'll just hold the other side of this line. I'll maintain that space. And that worked out for a long time. But it's. You know, that's. That's the reason I started it off was just to be. Be a faithful voice who was also having the tough conversations.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] And now you're becoming. You know, your listeners are saying you're becoming more critical.

Bill Reel [00:38:02] Yeah, there's. There's no doubt that my voice has become more. More frustrated, because I think the longer you dissect this thing, the more you dive in, the more you realize that there's a perception that the church wants to maintain about itself and the contact its leaders have with the divine. And then there's the reality, which I think, again, Givens and Mason are speaking to. And in the kind of trying to figure out where that line's at. And the more you read and the more you think and the more you discover this stuff, you realize that, like, there's some unhealthiness here. There's some real hurt that we're doing to people, and is there a safe space to speak up and to point that out? And part of me wants to find out, like, can I stand up and raise my hand and say, okay, so I have hope that this is the true and living church, but at the same time, can I say, like, there's really serious issues here that we don't want to talk about, and I want us to talk about them.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] So, you know, obviously, I have to. It's impossible for me not to process kind of my own journey as I listen to you and your journey. I started out the podcast Mormon Stories, trying to keep people in the church, trying to show that you can be faithful and open. I started stale. DS.com tried to carve out a middle way, started a thoughtful faith, helped Dan start Mormon matters. Like, I've been through all that stuff before. I became increasingly critical. So when you decided I was too critical. But now you're critical, does that just mean you weren't along that path? And more importantly, the bigger question that I'm really asking is, does the fact that you've moved from where I was earlier to where I ended up, in many ways, does that suggest that there really is a bit of a path or a trajectory that people follow, that they start out orthodox, then they start questioning, then they're Naive and optimistic. Then they start trying to carve out the middle way. Then they get exposed to all the pain and then they start getting frustrated that they're not getting listening to. And then their voices become more and more shrill. And it wasn't just me. September 6th, you know, Margaret Toscano, Paul Toscano, Michael Quinn, you know, and this is something Matt Long was getting to in his interview with you. It's not like this is what you're going through. It's the first time this has happened to someone in Mormonism. This seems to be a pattern that's been followed time and time and time again. So are you willing to say that you just earlier, when you thought I was being too critical, you just didn't kind of understand the path, or would you look at it differently?

Bill Reel [00:40:42] No, no, I would fully agree. Like, we're all on a trajectory. Whether, whether we're on the same trajectory or not. We're all on a trajectory. We're all on a path. Right. So the idea that I couldn't have any hindsight at that time, right. Like, only now can I look back and say, like, oh, that happened. That led to this and this led to that. I would say too, you're asking if it's a common trajectory. And I would simply throw out maybe a rhetorical question or you can answer if you want to. If you took a thousand people, active orthodox Latter Day Saints and you stuck me in a room with them, who's going to help them understand the messiness so they can be more empathetic to their loved one? Then you stuck an apologist in the room, an old style apologist from Fair Mormon or somebody else in the room and they're going to defend the faithful position and both of us just go in and just like throw all the data out and I throw answers and they throw answers. The question would be like, how many of that thousand would. Would now end up having their faith slowly fall apart? And I think the risk is there that when we talk about the information, when we try to take the perspectives of those who are being hurt in Mormonism, those who are being marginalized, I think it's a normal trajectory for the majority of people to slowly become more and more frustrated with the unhealthiness that's here that the top leadership doesn't seem to want to address. And so I think it's normal.

John Dehlin [00:42:14] Cool. Well, I appreciate that. And it was one of the most common questions and comments by the listeners is just, is this a common trajectory? And are you on it? So thanks for answering. Yeah.

Bill Reel [00:42:29] And I don't know, John, like, where it'll end. Like, I'm hoping to stay in the church. Like, I have a hope in this thing that I want to be here, but I'm not naive enough anymore to not at least know where it could end and know that it could end with me being outside the church.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] Yeah, no, I get it. I was active until my final disciplinary council hearing, and I wanted to stay in, too, so I get it. Okay, so who is your audience today, if you had to describe them? Do you have a sense for the breakdown of, like, orthodox believers versus progressive believers versus, you know, post Mormons or non believers?

Bill Reel [00:43:08] So I would guess the majority of the audience is progressive Mormon, with still a strong segment of post Mormon folks who still want to stay connected to the story and still want to hear interesting things going on about Mormonism. But what I've tried to do, and again, my Facebook posts are much stronger. There's a much more critical voice in my Facebook post, but in the podcast, I'm still trying to maintain a voice that is safe enough for the progressive Mormon to share with their family and friends. And I still get messages every week from listeners who take certain episodes and pass them along to their bishop, pass them along to their father, pass them along to their sibling. And the listeners are saying, that's a huge help. So I think the podcast still holds this inside edge of progressive Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:44:01] Have you had listeners reach out and say, bill, you've become too negative or critical? I'm not listening anymore.

Bill Reel [00:44:06] Yeah, but it's by far and wide a minority. I probably have gotten three or four messages from listeners in the last year from folks saying, like, oh, I just really wish you could just be more positive and not talk about these issues constantly. But most of the messages I get are from people who are just grateful that there's another voice out here that validates them and shows empathy and is not just gonna pretend there's nothing going wrong here.

John Dehlin [00:44:37] Do you have a sense for your statistics? Like, how many downloads per episode, let's just say a week or two after you release overall, what your size of listenership is.

Bill Reel [00:44:50] So we're running everything through Blueberry every. So last month we got 73,000 downloads. I don't. You know, I know that's like half of what, like, Infants on Thrones get. I bet it's probably a tenth of what you're getting. But I'm getting somewhere around 65 to 75, maybe thousand downloads a month now. Every episode is getting After a few weeks is somewhere around the 4,000 download mark.

John Dehlin [00:45:20] Okay. Are you happy with that? Do you think it should be more or less?

Bill Reel [00:45:26] I don't know how these things are measured, and I don't know if some of it gets missed or if that's accurate. I don't know. But, I mean, it's growing. Every month is more than the month before. So I'm thrilled with that.

John Dehlin [00:45:37] Yeah, I just looked at marmous stories. We had 327,000 downloads in July, and then we do YouTube views and Facebook views on top of that. So I'm guessing we're at 4, 400, but I'm in the same boat. Growing. Absolutely growing. The OSF is on track this year to have over 6 million downloads and views for the year.

Bill Reel [00:45:59] I think it's interesting to note John too, which is an idea you're pointing at that while progressive Mormonism or people waking up to the messiness of Mormonism, while that is still a small, small, small segment of an active ward, I think there's no doubt that this number exponentially growing, like you can just watch ex Mormon Reddit, the podcast. Growth of various podcasts, various scholars and people who are speaking to this, getting more attention. I just think it's a growing segment of the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:46:34] I agree. Mark Johnson, my buddy from the uk, writes, bill, do you still attend in order to give your podcast credibility for still attending members? In other words, is remaining active in part a strategy to keep your podcast viable?

Bill Reel [00:46:51] That's not something that I put a lot of thought into. I'm active. I go every week. I'm the finance clerk in my ward. I still love Mormonism like, I still love it as a playground. My boss and I, we talk about this a lot. And I'm speaking of Chris Bloxham, who owns the company. I work for him and I had these conversations about how Mormonism is this really fertile ground for development once you're awake. And so I love Mormonism. I love the history, I love the theology, I love the community. And so, sure. I mean, at some point, maybe these guys decide I can't be part of the tribe anymore. I just don't see how that. I don't see how that makes the podcast decrease. I think it still continues to grow, whether I'm in or whether I'm out. I don't think it has that much of an impact.

John Dehlin [00:47:39] Got it. What are your. What's your annual revenue or your monthly revenue for your podcast?

Bill Reel [00:47:46] So last year we brought in, I think 11,000. This year I think we're on pace to bring in about $18,000. And like you were set up as a 501C3, and the donations continue to go up and up. So I mean, it's still peanuts, right? So Fairmormon likes to say, for instance, some of the members of them like to make the idea or the claim that I'm making money off of this. And as of yet, I still haven't taken a salary. Like it all just goes into expenses or builds up. We've got, I think about 8,600 bucks in the savings account at this point.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] Why haven't you paid yourself?

Bill Reel [00:48:22] Because it's not big enough. There's not enough there. So maybe someday I do, but until then, you know, I'm not. And I'm happy to be open about that. And sure, I hope there's a day where I can make 50, 60 thousand dollars off the thing and maybe do it full time. Right Now I'm working 60 hours a week at my full time job and I probably put another 20 hours a week into doing things with the podcast and with the 501C3.

John Dehlin [00:48:48] What's the other job? And did it come about as a result of your podcast? And is there any tie between your job and your podcast?

Bill Reel [00:48:55] Yeah, it's actually a pretty unique relationship. So I did a fireside in Henderson, Nevada a little over two years ago, maybe two and a half years ago. And it was for Mormons who are doubting. And we had this big group show up and we sat and.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] Was it in a Mormon chapel?

Bill Reel [00:49:11] No, no, no. It was in the backyard of a gentleman who's now my. A good friend of mine, his brother was there that night as well to take it all in. And we went from 7pm till midnight just answering people's questions. And you know this right? People, people just want to ask their questions and they want to be heard, they want to be validated, they want to have somebody address them head on. And so we did that. And when it was all said and done, this other gentleman, you know, comes up to me and says, like, I've got to have you work for me. And so we worked out the details and I now work for Family Pawn, which is a family owned pawn shop in Southern Utah. Really awesome operation. Great owners, Chris and Don Bloxham. And Chris brought me on board. We trained at one store and now I manage their family pawn store in Hurricane, Utah.

John Dehlin [00:50:00] Does he let you work Mormon discussion on the job

Bill Reel [00:50:06] here and there?

John Dehlin [00:50:07] Sure.

Bill Reel [00:50:07] I mean, I'm not gonna Go do an interview or something while on the clock. But as far as kind of just keeping up with what's going on in Mormonism, put a post out on Facebook a time or two. Yeah, that's not a big deal. So one of the things that's really cool is he loves Mormonism as much as I do. And him and his wife are big collectors of LDS memorabilia, artifacts, items. We've got a first edition of the Book of Mormon in our store. We've got a second edition. We've got a first edition of Lucy Mack's history of Joseph Smith and her family. They just, they love Mormonism. They love the conversations that are going on right now in the church. And so it's been a lot of fun. I come out here and we just spend a lot of time sometimes just hashing out different issues within the church.

John Dehlin [00:50:51] Sam Newton writes, bill, I've listened to you for quite some time. It seems like you're moving down the same slippery slope so many of us have, fully believing to middle way Mormon, to progressive Mormon, to ex or transitioning Mormon. It seems like your podcast keep moving in this direction. Do you think you can really stay and not move down this path? That's a. I guess it's a similar question to what we've already talked about. Anything else you want to say to Sam?

Bill Reel [00:51:16] That kind of a question, and no offense to Sam, but I'm glad he asked it. But that kind of a question is somewhat irritating because you can't help. You can't help but be who you are. You can't help but think what you think. You can't help but process this the way you process this. And so where this ends, I don't know. But I can't help where I am. Like, that's where I am. And when you're in Mormonism and every time you're trying to put a piece of the puzzle back together and all you realize is there's 10 more pieces at the bottom of the bag. Like, it gets more and more difficult. And so it's fair for people to say, like, oh, you're too negative, but I think it's unfair to have any kind of implication that you can fix this anytime you want to.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] Right. I like that answer, actually. Thank you for that. All right, so let's. So you do have a calling, your ward financial clerk. You do have an active temple recommend. What are you able to say about your relationship with your leaders, specifically your bishop, your stake president, any. Any other leaders that you've interacted with? I know you don't want to talk about that a lot, but what can you tell us so I can tell

Bill Reel [00:52:26] you a little bit? I've got a wonderful bishop, great bishop. He's orthodox, but he's very loving. And he has a brother who's left over church history. He's got a couple of family members who have come out as lesbians. He's very aware that there is messiness out there and he chooses to kind of just stay out of that fray. And I think a little out of worry, right, of what that would maybe do to him. But in the meantime, he's been extremely loving and kind to me. And while I think he's somewhat uncomfortable or skeptical of what influence I'm going to have, the more I talk or speak up inside a ward building, he's been loving enough to continue to let me participate and not to find any serious issue there. I've also got a stake president who's much of the same mold, great man, loving man, very kind. He's much more aware of the history of the church, but still holds a very orthodox position. And he's allowed at the same time. We've met several times. We've had one on one conversations. We've talked about the podcast, we've talked about my testimony, we've talked about where I stand on various issues. I've been able to be very frank with him. And while he has expressed that there are some higher than him who have concern over what I say and do, at least as of this very present second, he still feels like I'm helping people and that there is not a safe space in the three hour block to have these conversations and that somebody needs to be having them and that I'm providing a venue for that to occur.

John Dehlin [00:54:13] If past is in any way prologue, this all sounds very familiar. I had multiple conversations with bishop and stake president before things kind of went sour. And they were very supportive until they weren't. And usually, you know, in our case, what happened was apologists in Fairmormon and Maxwell Institute decided Mormon stories had crossed the line. At some point they started investigating me. They started, you know, sort of, I think probably in conjunction with the strengthening, the members committee started passing troubling quotes and things to my stake president. And that's when things started getting serious. Still, my former stake president wasn't willing to pull the trigger. And so what ended up happening was, you know, Whitney Clayton actually removed my former stake president, put in a stake president that was willing to pull the trigger and all of that just Sort of came from a decision that the church made at the highest level, that Mormon stories was too damaging and it needed to be ended or I needed to be discredited. Do you have a sense that any of that's happening and that pattern or cycle could reoccur with you?

Bill Reel [00:55:31] So, a couple things, a couple thoughts I've got. One is this John lynch, who's the vice president of FairMormon. At least last time I checked, he was the vice president of FairMormon. Did an interview some time ago. In fact, I think it was in reaction to my having left fair. So right around that same time, which would have been maybe 2014, 2013. And John lynch in the interview says something along the lines of, from time to time, the church will ask us to stay up to date on certain voices within Mormonism and to collect data on them and turn them back into them. So we know for a fact that that's happened. They're on the record as saying that occurs. I know that my stake president has shared with me that higher leaders than him and the wording he used made it sound like pretty, pretty high up, if that makes sense, that they were watching and listening to what I was saying. But I don't believe they're actually listening to podcasts. I don't believe they're getting up in the morning and plugging Mormon stories or Mormon discussion on their ears or. Or throwing a phone in the shower while they. While they take a shower. I don't think that's occurring. But as you point out, the Strengthening Church Members Committee collects the information, cuts out snippets of what I say, cuts out audio bits of what I say, and then passes on probably a transcript or something to those, to those top leaders. And it's unfortunate because I think you really don't understand a person unless you listen to them in context and you listen to how they're framing things throughout their entire conversation. But I'm sure it does occur, John, and as of yet, I, you know, I've said a lot of strong things, but maybe I haven't said whatever it is they're looking for. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:57:15] The thing I would add is influence. If and when your downloads continue to grow, that's going to be the factor, because there's plenty of people who have been strident, who have said negative or critical things, who don't believe. I mean, look at Tyler Glenn. You know, he defamed the temple ceremony and he showed temple signs, you know, and tokens and did a video in his garments. But the truth is, it didn't have a huge influence on enough people's faith for them to go after Tyler. And so he's been left alone. Lindsay Hansen park has been left alone. I think a huge factor is influence. You kind of have to cross this threshold of influence before they. So I'm just saying that's another factor that, you know you'll grow over time because that's how these things work. But that's probably another factor.

Bill Reel [00:58:07] I think it's something else, too. And maybe. I don't know if these overlap at all or if this is maybe just a completely different reason that I'm going to kind of hold onto. I think influence is big. There's no doubt about that. But I also think it's the idea that there are certain lines you just can't cross. And so I think the moment. The moment you express disbelief in, for instance, Jesus Christ, or the moment you express disbelief in these men as prophets, seers and revelators, that seems to be a line you just can't go across. And so you can word things in a way, articulate things in a way that expresses deep doubt. But I think the moment you cross that line. And again, there's other issues, too. I mean, you look at the September 6th, and there's other reasons why. And maybe that was just a different era, and there was less allowance, too. But I think often disbelief being articulated verbally is one of those lines you just simply can't. And publicly you just can't cross.

John Dehlin [00:59:06] Okay, And I think that's a factor. But you can cross those lines. In Tyler Glenn's case, he's crossed all those lines, including making fun of the profit, expressing explicit disbelief, you know, violating the temple ceremony, oaths and covenants, and he's been left completely alone. So it's a lot of factors. But I agree that those expressing public disbelief, criticizing the brethren, can be ones along with violating temple oaths. But I think at the end of the day, the number one factor is impact, because they have to sort of balance. How many people are you hurting from the Barbra Streisand effect of if we excommunicate you, how much publicity will that generate for the negative things? And if they calculate that, on the one hand your influence, you know, isn't or is enough, on the other hand, with, wow, how much trouble are we getting? You know, like, with Tom Phillips or Hans Matzon? They haven't excommunicated those guys. And I think they've calculated that excommunicating Hans Mattson or Tom Phillips or Tyler Glenn would bring much more negative visibility to the church than is the actual influence that they're having. And I think that's part of the calculus. That's all I'm saying.

Bill Reel [01:00:29] Interesting.

John Dehlin [01:00:31] Tyler writes, Bill's podcast was the first I found during my faith transition. Brought stability to a life that was full of pain and confusion. Thanks Bill. So that's a positive comment from one of our live listeners. We have over 237 live listeners joining us right now, which is a very large number, especially for 8:30am in the morning. So shout out to all our listeners. We're really grateful you've joined us. Please continue to share comments and questions. My dear friend Sid Olson writes, I appreciate your thoughts Bill and John, you give great interviews. Thank you both. So positive. Shout out from Sid. We love you Sid. Susan writes, I think podcasts like this help those individuals who are waking up to the complexity of faith navigate the transition in a healthy way. Thanks for all you do. So lots of positive comments from our listeners. Bill Chelsea writes, Tyler Glenn is also famous outside Mormonism. The PR from exing him would be a nightmare. I completely agree. I also shared on my Facebook page today an interview from Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons where he's starting to come out publicly about his non belief and his disagreement with the church about same sex marriage and LGBT individuals. It seems like more and more people are becoming more and more vocal and for some reason celebrities are more prone to, to become dissenters at some point. So that's, that's interesting as well. Caleb writes, John, there is a kind of number of people as far as influence that they may wait until you reach before considering action. Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Mark writes, Rock Waterman is a more complex example. He has belief in Christ but not the brethren and yet he was still excommunicated. Mary writes, is that what you think happened in your case? To me and I don't know exactly what she's talking about, but I know for sure that it was a mandate. From Russell M. Nelson and Elder Ballard to Whitney Clayton. He tried to get my former stake president to excommunicate me. He wouldn't. So then he brought in a new stake president who would and it was absolutely top down the whole way, even though they denied it. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

Core Beliefs and Doctrinal Questions

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 780

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Okay, so, Bill, I would like to talk about your current relationship with the church. We talked about your relationship with leaders. It sounds like you have cool leaders. What are your beliefs about God? How would you describe your beliefs in God?

Bill Reel [00:00:49] So, man, the way I would frame it is Heavenly Father. Like, I don't know that there's a bearded man in the sky near a star named Kolob. I don't know that I hope in that. But I'm willing to be okay with the fact that maybe there's this cosmic consciousness. Maybe there's. Maybe God looks or appears something different. I don't know. I know there's a part of my head that can easily go atheist if I want to. I'm very good at compartmentalizing. And so there's pieces of my mind as I sit and think about this and weigh kind of the theology of Mormonism, the theology of Christianity and religion generally, and then kind of going no belief at all. I feel like I can kind of hold those various perspectives. So is there a God? I hope so. Is he a bearded man in the sky? I don't know. And I don't necessarily care about that. Like, that's not important to me. So I don't feel like there's a need to stake a claim.

John Dehlin [00:01:43] So you don't have affirmative belief in an anthropomorphic God?

Bill Reel [00:01:48] I hope so. But I don't know how that there's an anthropomorphic God. Well, I would say it like this, John. Like, I don't. How does having a physical being in the sky versus whatever else God could be? How does it affect, like, my everyday life and my.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] No, but that's central to the. To Joseph's doctrine and plan of salvation, that God is an exalted man, that Jesus is his literal son, that God has a physical body, and that we will be resurrected with physical bodies and have the potential to become God. I mean, that is central to Joseph theology and Mormon doctrine. So that's why it matters.

Bill Reel [00:02:27] Sure. But the struggle is that Joseph alleges he saw them And I haven't. So how can I make any definitive claim on what color God's eyes are or what he looks like, or whether he's got a shaven face or a beard?

John Dehlin [00:02:39] No, I'm just saying belief, right, and

Bill Reel [00:02:41] beliefs are tricky because. Right. I'm saying, like, I understand the evidence, I understand all the different conversations going on within and without religion. And I recognized, like, it's essentially impossible unless a heavenly being has visited you.

John Dehlin [00:02:57] Right.

Bill Reel [00:02:58] To know what is what. And so part of the issue too, John, like, realize, like to be in the church, like, I can't just say, like, I don't believe God. So I hold out this position, like, I don't know, I haven't seen him. So who am I to say what he looks like or where he, you know, what he is? I know that feels like I'm deflecting around question.

John Dehlin [00:03:19] No, not at all. I appreciate it. What about a historical Jesus? Was there a historical Jesus? And in your mind, did Jesus literally bleed for every sin? Was he literally resurrected, that sort of thing?

Bill Reel [00:03:35] Sure. This one will be a little easier for me because at least I have some emotional experience. So I did a six part episode, I think it was six parts on the historical Jesus. Completely going into the data where the scholars think, you know, the data falls short or from the conclusions that some people within faiths make, I would simply state, like, I don't know if Jesus is historical or not. I know there are issues with historicity, with Christ. What I do know is that I've literally been changed by his grace and mercy.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] Right.

Bill Reel [00:04:08] I've been affected by whatever those gifts are that the Christ of faith brings in. And so again, I know it feels like a somewhat of a dodge, but I know there's issues with historical Jesus. And yet at the same time, I know I've been deeply affected by the Christ I find in the New Testament. And for me that's sufficient.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] Okay, are you, is it important to you that, that you resurrect as a physical being? Is that an important part of your worldview and how you make sense of your life and death?

Bill Reel [00:04:45] As you and I both know, when you're kind of blind early on in your life and you're just completely absorbed into Mormonism and that's the only lens you see through. You put off a lot of important events of your life so that you can contribute to the kingdom of God, hoping that you'll catch up on that stuff later on in the eternities. I would say that I'm awake to the Idea that maybe here and now is all we have. And so I take advantage of every moment now. I'm aware and awake of every moment now. And I try to be anyway. And is it important to me. I sure hope, man. To me, it would be sad that we have so much fun and we learn so many things and we have so many cool friends and experiences in this life, only to have the light go out at some point. And so I certainly hope that whatever that is, our consciousness, our memory, I hope something there goes on. And I, and I truly do hope in that. And I think it's somewhat sad to say, like it doesn't. But I'm also aware that there's a chance that that's exactly what happens. The light just goes out.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] Sounds very Buddhist.

Bill Reel [00:05:58] Okay. You can thank Thomas McConkie for anything I say. That's wise.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] Noah Rashetta for me is the real deal when it comes to secular Buddhism. So that's my shout out.

Bill Reel [00:06:08] We'd have to pit our two guys against each other.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] Okay, in terms of the Bible goes 6000 year old earth or a billion year old Earth?

Bill Reel [00:06:18] I think it's a silly question. I think people have been trying since the beginning of time to tell, to try to explain the world and to explain the things they don't have rational explanations for. And whether we're talking the Old Testament, whether we're talking the Bhagavad Gita out of the Hindu faith, those scriptures are full of what I would call crazy stories. And at the same time, I just, I wouldn't take the Bible literally, especially the Old Testament, I would not take it literally. And I try to hold the ground that regardless of whether it's literal or not, doesn't really matter. Like it's spiritual, it's scripture, and it inspires my life and it helps me to grow. And for me, that again, that's sufficient.

John Dehlin [00:06:59] But age of the earth.

Bill Reel [00:07:01] Oh, age of the earth is what? Billions and billions and billions of years old.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] And I'm going through some rapid fire questions.

Bill Reel [00:07:07] Sure, please.

John Dehlin [00:07:08] Organic evolution, yes or no? Sure.

Bill Reel [00:07:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:11] Global flood, yes or no?

Bill Reel [00:07:12] No.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] Noah's ark, yes or no?

Bill Reel [00:07:15] No.

John Dehlin [00:07:16] Adam and Eve, Literal Adam and Eve.

Bill Reel [00:07:18] Somewhere there was two first Homo sapiens. And maybe their names were Adam and Eve, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] But Adam and Eve, as the, as the parents of all humanity, I think

Bill Reel [00:07:28] the Adam and Eve story falling out of the garden is much more a metaphorical story of us falling out of the premortal life.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] So no, no. Okay. I know that your view on Prophets is going to be that if a prophet receives some inspiration that you can call him a prophet. But was Joseph Smith a prophet in any way that made him superior to anyone else that you would hold as a prophet

Bill Reel [00:07:53] man? So, right. This is the tough thing, right?

John Dehlin [00:07:56] Special. Was Joseph Smith like, special in terms of like privileged or better than or a higher grade than Buddha or Gandhi or whoever? I don't have just another one of many inspired people in history.

Bill Reel [00:08:11] These questions are tough because they're three hour conversations, which is why I'm stammering. I think Joseph had a spiritual experience and I wasn't there. So I don't know what Joseph was called to do. And all I can do is express my hope, which to me is faith.

John Dehlin [00:08:26] Right.

Bill Reel [00:08:27] It's my hope that Joseph was called by God to restore something. But in the midst of that, I allow him to get so much wrong. And on top of that, I allow the church to overreach on 99.8% of it. And that's fine with me.

John Dehlin [00:08:41] But do you hope that God established his one true church with exclusive authority through the prophet Joseph Smith? Do you hope that?

Bill Reel [00:08:49] I hope that God restored the only true and living church with which he was well pleased? In that given moment, yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:58] Okay, so you hope that the LDS church is the one true church.

Bill Reel [00:09:04] You're changing what I'm saying. So the scripture in D and C says the only true and living church with which I'm well pleased. And that's given in a specific moment of time. And so when God says the only true and living church with which I'm well pleased, he's not saying it's the only true and living church. He's not saying it's the only true church. He's not saying it's the only living church. He's saying it's the only true and living church in that given moment which he's pleased with.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] Do you hope that the LDS church today is the only true living church?

Bill Reel [00:09:31] I hope that the LDS Church today has communication with God and as Elder Uchtdorf says, that the restoration is ongoing.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] But do you want it to be the one true church? Do you?

Bill Reel [00:09:42] Sure, I want it to be. But I also want to be able to fly too. I don't know if that's true or not. I don't know like I hope in it. But I also realize, like, my hope could be misfounded. I also realized that my hope may not be true. And I also have a very big place in my head that recognizes that many of these things don't add up.

John Dehlin [00:09:58] This is what I'm saying. I still love the church. I don't hope that it's the one true church, not because I wish the church ill, but because I want a God that doesn't play favorites, that doesn't have a chosen people, that doesn't bring his exclusive truth to less than 1/2 of 1% of the world's population. So in that sense, I don't want it to be the one true church with exclusive authority. Because if there's a God, I want a God that is seeing all of his children and all of the people trying to follow him or her or them as equal and legitimate. And I'm trying to get you to answer that question. Do you want it to be the best, the exclusive, the one true?

Bill Reel [00:10:40] You're asking a question in a way that I can't answer it. So what I would say is that I define true and living very differently than the church defines for itself. And I'm okay with that because I don't care how the church interprets itself. Because the church acknowledges that it's misinterpreted itself for 200 years, it's overreached on dozens and dozens of issues that it now acknowledges that leaders went too far or didn't go far enough. So the way I see the words true and living, which is what God, the voice of God, says in the dnc, like, I'll hold those words. Yeah, I hope the church is true and I hope the church is living. But I define that very differently than Mormonism does for itself.

John Dehlin [00:11:17] But in the way that I'm defining it, are you hoping that this is the best church, God's preferred church? Are you hoping.

Bill Reel [00:11:22] No, I don't think that's the claim that God makes. I don't think that's the claim that leaders in the past have made like Orson F. Whitney.

John Dehlin [00:11:27] So, no, that's the claim that the modern church leaders make.

Bill Reel [00:11:30] Yeah, but at various times in our history, we've made lots of claims that we've gone back later.

John Dehlin [00:11:35] You don't hope that the church is what the modern church leaders claim it is, meaning God's one true church on the earth?

Bill Reel [00:11:43] I hope that the church is a valid path, but I don't necessarily need to have it be the only path.

John Dehlin [00:11:49] Okay, got it. Okay. Book of Mormon were in your mind. Do you think it's. Do you believe that an angel delivered golden plates? Or do you. Or have you sort of weighed the evidence and decided that something else happened?

Bill Reel [00:12:08] I would much rather you Ask if I believe the Book of Mormon is historical. Can we do that one?

John Dehlin [00:12:12] Are you saying you're concerned about the ramifications if you answer that question?

Bill Reel [00:12:17] I'm concerned. Yeah, sure. Like all these qu. And I'm happy with you asking them. Let's. Let's keep doing this. But realize that my avoiding a question is because by giving a two second statement on an answer doesn't give the nuance that's necessary to frame that question in a way that both is faithful as well as being honest and with integrity. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:12:38] Sure. So, but I mean, I think it's fair to ask you, do you believe that an angel Moroni delivered golden plates to Joseph Smith and that in your mind you have assessed the evidence and you've decided whether or not you think that likely happened?

Bill Reel [00:12:53] Let's do this a different way. Intellectually. No, intellectually I can't make that work. But my testimony isn't all intellectual. Right. My testimony is also inside my.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] Sure.

Bill Reel [00:13:06] Sorry about that. My testimony is also inside my mind. Right. Or inside my heart. I mean. And so I hope in it, like I hope that the restoration is real. And for me, Elder Uchtdorf says hope is fine. Hope is a testimony. Hope is a good start. So let's at least start there.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] And I know that you draw inspiration from the Book of Mormon, but I'm just asking a separate question is if you believe that it is a historical

Bill Reel [00:13:27] document, intellectually, I think you can explain. 95% of the book of Mormon is not ancient Americans. And coming from Joseph's culture, I'm left with 5% to try and figure out how I explain it. And I'm okay again hoping that part of the Book of Mormon is an ancient text, but also recognizing that we've overreached a ton on how much of it has to be.

John Dehlin [00:13:52] One listener asked, do you believe that Peter, James and John restored the priesthood to Joseph? That's from Paul.

Bill Reel [00:13:59] Again, I wasn't there hoping it, but I know he's. I know this answer seems like a dodge, but again, it'll take a two hour conversation.

John Dehlin [00:14:06] I get your answers. I'm not critical of your answers, listeners. I'll just tell you what some of the listeners are writing. Rick writes, oh my gosh, in exclamation points. Daniel writes, all he is doing is apologetics. Mark writes, bill sounds like one of the neo apologists. Givens, Miller, et cetera. Not saying that's a bad thing, but it's awkward sometimes. Rick wrote like a worm on a hook. Now I Don't want to sanction listeners being disrespectful, but I. But how do you give a response to them? That sort of explains why you're answering the way you answer.

Bill Reel [00:14:40] So in order to be on the inside of the church today, Right. You have to say things a certain way. And the way you say things is very different than what you had to say 15 years ago and what you had to say 20 years ago. In other words, Maxine Hanks probably could have written her book today and said what she said. So in some ways, I'm holding out hope that I believe in a Mormonism inside my head that I'll be able to express in one sentence answers 25 years from now. But that's not the Mormonism we're in today. And so for any one question you're asking, I would have to do a two hour podcast interview just on that question where we slowly dissect it and say, what do I mean? Because there's people on the inside of the church that are simply looking for a 12 word soundbite so they can come after you. And what I'm saying is if I have to give you a 12 word soundbite, it's gonna cross the line.

John Dehlin [00:15:35] Right?

Bill Reel [00:15:35] Right.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] Yeah.

Bill Reel [00:15:37] But if, but if you let me speak for two hours and express the thought fully, then I stay on the inside edge.

John Dehlin [00:15:44] Got it? No, I appreciate that. I appreciate that, Rick. And there are also listeners coming to your defense. Let's see. Marianne writes, I totally understand where Bill is coming from. Brenda writes, bill is staying true to who he has always been. He leads with faith. So don't think that they're all critical.

Bill Reel [00:16:06] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:16:09] Rick writes, your hands are tied. And I think I appreciate you admitting that. Paul. Paul, My buddy Paul, who interviewed me on episode, I think, 30 through 32. I love Paul. He says, what does it say about Mormonism that you have to give these nuanced, subtle, vague answers to avoid getting punished? What does that say about Mormonism?

Bill Reel [00:16:34] It says that Mormonism is not. It's more mature than it was 15 years ago, but it's not as mature as it's going to be. And someday there's going to be a Mormonism where there's a safe space to just have authentic, vulnerable conversations. But I think it's a long ways away.

John Dehlin [00:16:49] Love it. Thank you. The racism in the Book of Mormon, the narrative that dark skin is a result of wickedness, do you reject those narratives in the Book of Mormon?

Bill Reel [00:16:59] I reject it fully. But I think even the church today leaves room For Brant Gardner's idea that color doesn't mean color. And I think it's a crazy, mental, gymnastic way to go, but I think it shows that the church doesn't want to hold that position anymore either.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] Do you think it's possible that Joseph Smith just made it up and it's a fraud, that the Book of Mormon is not what it claims to be? Joseph was trying to make some money. He was trying to sell a book, maybe start a religion. And the Book of Mormon was just literally an attempt to do those things.

Bill Reel [00:17:32] Defining miraculous in a secular way. I would simply say that regardless of whether it all happened the way Joseph said or it didn't, it's still a miracle and it's still genius. And I'm still intrigued by that. Is it a fraud? I don't know. Like, I can argue that. I could also argue against it, but I. But I'm willing to say, like, intellectually, there's a lot of evidence that points to it being just made up.

John Dehlin [00:17:57] Okay, what about the Book of Abraham?

Bill Reel [00:18:02] I don't think the church knows what's going on there, right? We give five answers, and every one of them is problematic. And I was driving, so as a finance clerk, right, I'm driving one of the counselors in the bishopric to the bank to drop off the money. And I know you're trying to be quick driving to the banks to drop off money. And we're talking about the Book of Abraham. He's a science teacher. And I said, in science, when somebody gives you five answers, he looks right at me and goes, they don't have any. And I think that's the issue. I mean, with the Book of Abraham, we do not have a good answer. I'm left to wonder if Joseph is trying to connect us to something divine through the means of making things up. And if that's true, and let me caveat that with this, in some ways, it wouldn't be any different than any other scriptural text, right? In some ways, making up a narrative to teach a spiritual idea is very much in line with the Old Testament or other scriptures from other faiths.

John Dehlin [00:18:57] But. But is it a translation of the Egyptian papyrus in your mind?

Bill Reel [00:19:00] I don't think so. And I. But I can't buy the catalyst theory

John Dehlin [00:19:03] either, which is what?

Bill Reel [00:19:06] That Joseph thought he was working off the Egyptian text, was adamant that that's what was happening, and that's not at all what was happening. And that doesn't seem to work very well either, because you have him being adamant that that's what he's doing. And so it doesn't make a lot of sense for God to almost be a trickster God in convincing Joseph that he's doing one thing when in reality he's doing something else.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] Is Thomas S Monson a prophet for you? A prophet of God for you? And if so, in what sense?

Bill Reel [00:19:37] For me? Right. Like, I define profit as somebody who I see as an outer authority who's going to give me spiritual direction. And I trust the brethren to give me spiritual insight in the midst of also giving me things that aren't correct. And again, our church acknowledges these guys have made serious mistakes and likely continue to do so. So I'm comfortable saying, like, he reveals things that the Holy Ghost tells him to reveal, and then now the Holy Ghost inside me chooses whether that was truth or not. And for the things that are truth, I welcome them in.

John Dehlin [00:20:12] So Thomas S Monson, specifically, do you think of him as God's prophet on the earth?

Bill Reel [00:20:15] Does he speak face to face with Jesus? I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] Okay. And do you look to him as God's mouthpiece on the earth right now in August 9, 2017?

Bill Reel [00:20:25] Do I think he's spoken face to face with Jesus? No. Is he the president of the church? Does. Have I. Have I, in common consent raised my hand to sustain him as the. As one of, if not the outer authority that I look to, to give me spiritual inspiration? Absolutely. And so again, we have to go back to Patrick Mason and how we define profit. And do I believe prophet as defined as these guys being like Moses, Noah and Abraham and seeing God face to face and Jesus shows up in the room? No. Do these guys receive inspiration and are they called as leaders of a church to give that inspiration to the members of that church and the members of that church, then in the Holy Ghost within themselves, their inner authority, weigh whether that's true or not true and to make use of it? Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:21:16] Does the LDS Church have the keys to salvation in a way that's unique or exclusive relative to other churches?

Bill Reel [00:21:27] So the only thing I can see as unique is if there's a God who values these outward saving ordinances, these outward mechanisms as a way to establish where we stand at a certain place in our life. And if, and again, I hope in this, if the ordinances have value, then certainly the church is called to be the administrators of those ordinances. Right. It's an argument that Terrell Givens makes that the church is the overseers or the guardians of the saving ordinances. And that's what we have keys to. But I'm not. But I also need to frame it that I don't think just members of the church have priesthood. I don't think just members of the church have the ability to heal anybody any greater than someone outside the church. Like miracles of the same magnitude occur across the globe. And I don't. I don't.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] I'm talking about authority. Authority.

Bill Reel [00:22:20] Yeah. Yeah. If the ordinances are crucial, which, again, I hope they are, then this church has the ordinances and nobody else does.

John Dehlin [00:22:30] So in your view, Catholic baptism doesn't count to get you into heaven?

Bill Reel [00:22:38] No. But I also would say that Catholicism or the Pope offers something unique that perhaps Mormonism doesn't have as well.

Temple, Tithing, and Church Practices

John Dehlin [00:22:48] Cool. People are asking how you feel about the temple. Do you like the temple? Do you attend the temple? Does it spiritually uplift you? Does it bother you? Impressions of the temple.

Bill Reel [00:23:00] A couple things. One is I love the initiatories. I haven't been in the temple in, like, two years, mostly because of my work schedule, but also partly because of where I'm at in my. In my path. But I love the initiatories. I have no problem going there for those. The endowment makes me really uncomfortable, and I'm a little hesitant to just jump into doing an endowment session. That said, throughout my life, I can distinctly remember the times I came out of the temple after having done temple work, and I felt a unique increase in wanting to be a better person. And for me, there's some real value in the house of the Lord for that, in spite of the fact that some of those ordinances make me really uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [00:23:44] Okay, this is a personal question, but a listener asked, do you pay a full tithe, meaning 10% of your. least your gross income to the church?

Bill Reel [00:23:55] Do I pay 10% of my gross? No.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] So how do you define. Do you pay a full tithing?

Bill Reel [00:24:03] I pay a full tithing.

John Dehlin [00:24:04] But do you pay a full tithing to the LDS Church?

Bill Reel [00:24:07] Yeah, I pay a full tithing to the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [00:24:09] How do you define that?

Bill Reel [00:24:11] So the easiest way to go there is Bishop Edward Partridge made the comment that if a man made a thousand bucks, he would have $60 in interest and he would pay six bucks in tithing. And the way in which I pay tithing is. I think there's multiple definitions. Gross, net surplus. And I choose something other than gross.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] Do you want to say what you choose?

Bill Reel [00:24:34] I personally. I've said it publicly. I personally pay on surplus.

John Dehlin [00:24:38] So whatever you have at the end of the year, after all your expenses, you pay 10% of that, right?

Bill Reel [00:24:43] So whatever I've got left over in my bank account after my family has all of their needs and stuff taken care of. And President Lorenzo Snow, when he went to St. George to give the revelation on tithing, said, every man, woman and child who has means. And that only makes sense in light of a surplus method. So I think surplus is the most historically valid way of doing it. I think the Church has left open all three options and other ways. Again, the First Presidency said that it's not for us to tell another person how to pay tithing, that each person is to decide between them and the Lord and to pay it accordingly. And I follow that to a T.

John Dehlin [00:25:20] Daniel Miller writes, my stake president told me he pays 10% of his surplus. So, Daniel, if you'll tell us what stake you're in, we'll share that as well, but we'll all move in. It sounds like there are other stake presidents who view things the way you do. Do you believe that same sex marriage is bad?

Bill Reel [00:25:43] No, I personally don't believe that.

John Dehlin [00:25:45] Do you believe that same sex love and committed love and same sex committed sexual relations relations are bad?

Bill Reel [00:25:54] I personally don't believe that. Again, I wouldn't push my opinion outside of myself, but no, I personally don't believe that.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] Do you believe that women should be ordained to the Mormon LDS priesthood?

Bill Reel [00:26:06] I think women need much more visibility, responsibility and a chance to have resources to progress. And so I think there's a void there that needs to be filled.

John Dehlin [00:26:22] What about answering the what about female ordination? Do you think women should receive the priesthood?

Bill Reel [00:26:27] The reason I'm stammering, John, is because there's two ideas, right? There's the idea that some women think they should. That the idea should be out there that women could get priesthood. And the other idea is that they get something complementary. And I don't care which. It is only that women have a chance to enjoy the same responsibilities and blessings that men do in the church, that they have just as much of an opportunity to progress and grow and to help and to serve.

John Dehlin [00:26:53] Sean writes, I hope Bill knew that this was going to be a witch hunt and didn't get blindsided. No, no, we're good.

Bill Reel [00:26:59] You can ask anything. I just, I hope people understand. Like, I can't just say the first 12 words off the top of my head because there's that risk there.

John Dehlin [00:27:07] Yeah, yeah. No, no, no.

Bill Reel [00:27:08] You can ask anything. There's no offense here.

John Dehlin [00:27:10] Okay. In terms of non beliefs, Sam Young wrote, this is a personal issue for Sam and I would say tens of thousands if not more Mormons, if not millions of Mormons. Sam wrote, do you believe masturbation is a sin? Are you comfortable sharing what your view on that is?

Bill Reel [00:27:32] Man, it's strange to believe that there's the sin out there that 99% of all boys are just prone to do and have extreme difficulty, kind of.

John Dehlin [00:27:44] And a majority of women.

Bill Reel [00:27:45] And a majority of women, yeah, like 70 something percent.

John Dehlin [00:27:47] Right.

Bill Reel [00:27:48] So I just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't want to, again, I don't want to sit here and say like I know it's wrong and the church is wrong on this issue. I would simply say it just doesn't make sense to me. Like I can't, I can't make that a sin in my head.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] Do you. What do you think about the church excluding non members and quote, unworthy people from temple weddings?

Bill Reel [00:28:09] So this one's close to my heart because as a new convert I went to the temple in Washington D.C. and got sealed to my wonderful wife. And at the time I told my mom she couldn't be there. And I don't know why we do that. I can't make sense of it. We've got to figure out some way, again, I understand perhaps only Mormons being able to go to the temple, but we've got to figure out some way that loved ones of a convert or, or of a part member family can enjoy in these precipice moments of our life. And so I know I'm not answering necessarily the question you asked, but we've got to figure out some way that it happens the way it used to, which is that marriages can occur and then a day or two later someone can go to the temple and be sealed in a separate ordinance. I just, I hope someday we can get there because that seems like it would be a lot less heartbreaking on people.

John Dehlin [00:29:00] Any, any, any orthodox Mormon beliefs or teachings that you're willing to just say you outright don't believe in or is that too risky?

Bill Reel [00:29:09] I don't believe that white shirts are a mandate. I don't believe that Jesus was born on April 6th.

John Dehlin [00:29:15] I mean doctrine.

Bill Reel [00:29:16] Yeah, I think, I think the April 6th thing is pretty close to being doctrine. Elder Bednar repeated it a few conferences ago.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] Anything else? Any other Mormon doctrine you're willing to say you don't believe?

Bill Reel [00:29:26] Man, you almost have to have firsthand experience with something to say. You just absolutely know. And so there's a lot of things in my mind that I'm like, oh, that doesn't add up. I got to figure out some new way around that. But no, nothing off the top of my head.

Family Life and Staying in the Church

John Dehlin [00:29:39] So you mentioned that at least some of your kids are no longer active or believing in the church. Is that true?

Bill Reel [00:29:45] Yeah. So I've got four children, 18, 16, 14 and 11. My 11 year old is asking stage four questions in follower stages of faith already. So he's beginning to kind of deconstruct things. My other three were deeply hurt by the November 2015 policy. And without me saying anything to them, like they saw, they went to school and they saw their friends talking about it and they, they joined in those conversations and they wrestled with it in their own mind and they, they began to distance themselves from the church over that, that thing happening. And even after that point, my kids sat down with me and I said, hey kids, where do you think your dad stands on all of this? And they said, you know, they, they thought I was still an orthodox believer, even though they had taken this kind of apart. And, and at that point I kind of shared with them where I was, you know, standing on these issues. But what I'm trying to make clear is that people often will just jump to the conclusion that Bill Real does this podcast. He goes home and tells all of his family all the things he's wrestling with, and his family just has slowly deconstructed stuff because of that. The reality is my kids are smart, my kids think, my kids like to wrestle with ideas and they've deconstructed it on their own.

John Dehlin [00:31:05] So right now the active count is how many active and believing are you still there? You're muted. Go ahead, bill. Wait.

Bill Reel [00:31:17] My 11 year old son still likes going to church, still likes participating, still has a level of belief. My two teenage daughters, we get them to go to sacrament, then we let them go home. They're much more distance from any kind of belief in Mormonism. My oldest son doesn't go anymore and my wife and I are pretty much kind of in the same place.

John Dehlin [00:31:39] Okay, so that was the next question. Where's your wife and how does she feel about all this?

Bill Reel [00:31:44] She's much more emotional, she's not as intellectual, she's not going to go read books, she's not going to dissect these issues, she's not going to go look up historical sources. But she's emotional and she realizes like the unhealthiness in this faith. And so she's never been kind of far behind me on my path. Like she's always been right there. With me when I first went to her and said, you know, I don't really. I don't really know how to put this together. Her first response back was, well, then, let's go try another church out. And it was a beautiful response that I don't think everybody gets.

John Dehlin [00:32:18] Yeah, you're a lucky man. And I've had a very similar experience. Has your podcasting been hard on your wife, on your marriage, or on your kids?

Bill Reel [00:32:26] It's twofold. It's given us a great opportunity to do cool things. Our whole family went out with Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons and spend the day with their family, and my kids loved hanging out with him. But there's also time issues. Right. So recording the podcast, you. You often close yourself in a room, like you and I are right now, and it's a little less time that your family gets with you sometimes. But then we also try to do other things that make up for that. Go hiking and go out to dinner and go do stuff, go to Vegas and go to a place sometimes. So we try to make up for it, but you certainly lose some time.

John Dehlin [00:33:04] So, really quickly, what are your motives? Well, no, let me jump to this. So you did this really extensive interview with Matt Long and the infants on Thrones, and I thought it was an interesting interview, but Matt Long, specifically, who's been a friend of mine for a long time, at least I consider him a friend. I hope he still considers me a friend. He was pretty rough on you, and I think he spoke for over half of the interview. That would be my interpretation. And he made a lot of really tough accusations or challenges for you, and I think it was a thoughtful exchange. So I'm not critical of Matt, and I love how passionate and intelligent Matt is, but I want to lay out some of the accusations or claims that Matt made and give you a chance to respond. Would that be okay?

Bill Reel [00:34:04] Sure. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:34:04] Okay, so the first one, first of all, so somebody wrote, Rob wrote. I hope he could be more respectful and maybe even applaud him for his work from within the church. Unlike the if It's On Thrones interview where he was berated for it. Did you feel berated in your interview on if It's On Thrones? How did that interview feel for you?

Bill Reel [00:34:26] Yeah. So first off, let me say, like, I validate how Matt felt. Like, I understand the trauma that comes from the unhealthy aspects of Mormonism. So I just want to honor, like, he was speaking from his truth, and that's real. And I don't want to take that away from him that said, like, yeah, I thought the segments of him kind of going on and on, it was kind of beating a dead horse. And I thought we'd addressed it at least to the best of the ability that I could do, and we should have moved on from it. I did think it kind of went a little, a little long.

John Dehlin [00:34:57] Sam writes, they were rough on him, but in all fairness, the church nearly cost the life of one of their sons. I think the emotion on Infants on Thrones was real and raw and important dialogue for those who choose to remain. And he said, you handled it well. Angie wrote, I'm a little surprised that he is engaging with Infants on Thrones. I enjoy them, but know exactly where they stand. And so did Bill understand this when he agreed to do it? So why would you even agree? Is Angie's question to interview with Infants on Thrones.

Bill Reel [00:35:27] So one of the things I am critical of the church about is the fact that it will never be vulnerable to the tough questions. And I always want to then step out front and do the very thing that I'm criticizing another person for not doing. And so going on Infants on Thrones, sitting down with you and taking these questions like, I may not be able to give the perfect answer in a 10 second blip, but I'm happy to take the questions and I'm happy to try and I'm happy to stand out in front and say, like, I'll try and answer that and you're welcome to ask it. And there's nothing wrong with asking these questions.

John Dehlin [00:36:02] Cool. All right. So some of Matt's accusations that I picked up, tell me how you react. So one is he sort of said he wonders if you're being a little bit naive and or chasing windmills. And I think that goes back to the question I tried to make earlier on, which is, oh, you saw Mormon stories that we were being too critical. And so you did Mormon discussion to try and do a balance. But in reality, you've ended up critical in many ways, similar to the way Mormon stories ended up. So would you admit that you were naive in your process?

Bill Reel [00:36:40] So it's always impossible to say in the very moment, like, no, I've got this right now I'm caught up. And now I'm fully aware, like, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense because we realized 10 years from now I'll look back and know that there were some things I was missing right now. That said, I feel like there's a huge difference in this person today versus the me of five years ago or the me of ten years ago. And where I'm at today, like, I don't think there's another piece of LDS history. And again, I know there's always new things out there, but I feel like I'm aware of 99% of Mormon history, 99% of the problems and conundrums of it. And I think I also have grown to a place where I can take other people's perspectives really well. And so I don't think, like, I'm naive just because I'm in. I think it's unfair for anybody who's in the church and staying to just assume they're being naive because if they were fully aware, they would be out.

John Dehlin [00:37:37] And I don't want to go naive thinking that you can make a difference. He mentioned chasing windmills like Don Quixote.

Bill Reel [00:37:43] Oh, man. I get messages from people saying I saved their marriage. I get messages from people saying, like, I was suicidal last week. And then I found your podcast and you've helped me, help me slow down to process this. I can't minimize that. Like, maybe I'm doing more harm than good. Maybe I'm doing very little good. We can have those debates, but to say nobody's being positively affected, I think is the naive position to make.

John Dehlin [00:38:09] Okay, you said in that podcast that the church likely won't change for another 20 to 100 years. This is probably a bit of a repeat. But if that's the case, if the church won't fundamentally change, then why keep doing it?

Bill Reel [00:38:23] You can look throughout history at people who have made differences, and some of them made immediate differences and some of them died never knowing the good that they caused. And I was taught when I joined this church that I was to help build the kingdom of God and I was to do good in the world. And whether I see an immediate effect or not, I'm willing to fight that fight.

Self-Doubt and the Personal Cost of Podcasting

John Dehlin [00:38:46] Okay, well, I had a question for later that I'm just going to throw in here. Do you ever have self doubt? And when I say self doubt, this is me projecting, and I'm going to own that, that I'm projecting on you some of the self doubt that I've had. But when I listen to you sometimes talk about, like, I'm taking the arrows that other lesser people can't take, or I'm taking the bullets that other people can't take, I'm gonna speak out for the voiceless. You know, I, when I would hear you thought about similar things that I've said and what came to my mind is a lot of the negativity from the critics, which would say, John Dehlin or Bill Rheil has a hero complex. They're trying to be a white knight. Histrionic is a word that comes from the psychology literature that means a far more grandiose view of your place in the world than is really grounded in reality. And then you even invoked Martin Luther King Jr. And Mother Teresa and Abraham Lincoln in your interview with Abraham Lincoln with infants on thrones. And I've said similar things, like when I get my TED Talk, and I talked about a lot of those things, about our place in history, sometimes I feel like it's totally legitimate. Not that we're at that scale, but that we're trying to do something similar in our restricted sphere. But other times, I feel like, man, are we just egomaniacs or histrionic or disproportionately viewing our importance? And are we almost even arrogant in thinking that other people can't advocate for themselves, that other people need us, that we're these white knights coming in to save the day? And even in my darkest moments, are we just egomaniacs seeking attention? Do you ever have moments of self doubt where you question all this laudable, glorious rhetoric that you sometimes use about your place in Mormonism?

Bill Reel [00:40:44] Absolutely. Like, that's. That's a valid question and a valid thing to have a conversation about. I deeply am aware that the critics grab onto statements like that. And by critics, I mean those, you know, the orthodox or the apologist within the church grab onto those statements and see it as you having a big head and kind of bragging about yourself. I would welcome anybody who feels that way to come live with me for a week and hear the conversations I have of, like, how do I slowly back out of doing this podcast? How do I get more of my own time back and not have to have myself drowning in this public conversation? And the moment I start having those thoughts, then I get another message from somebody who says, bill, I can't say what you're saying. I can't give voice to that. If I do, this is what will happen. And thank you for being that voice. And so there has to be voices out there. I don't care who the voices are. If somebody wants to do this podcast and hold this space, then by all means, like, I welcome that. Like, I wish there were more voices out here so the 25 of us who are speaking out could do less. But there aren't all those voices out there. And as long as it's helping people and meeting a need. And people feel like they're getting validation and they're given space to process this, and they're having. They're having an experience that's beneficial to them, that. That is much different than the hurt and trauma they're getting inside the church, Then somebody's got to do it. And I'm okay if it's somebody else, but, like, there has to be these safe voices, right? It feels like that's the case.

John Dehlin [00:42:25] What are the hard aspects of doing a podcast that people wouldn't see? Is it ever deeply painful or difficult?

Bill Reel [00:42:33] You carry a lot more stress and anxiety. You carry a lot more. You carry a lot more emotion because people write you rather than you just having to deal with your own life. You have people writing you who are bearing their soul to you about how hard the church is on them and how nobody in their immediate sphere is listening, nobody's helping, nobody's addressing their questions. And so you're trying to carry that, but you're also carrying your own life with you at the same time. And so I can't overstate the difference in my life when I'm just doing my own thing and only worried about me and my family, and when I'm carrying the emotional burden that comes from trying to help us as Mormonism to move forward.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] So is it hard? Is it painful?

Bill Reel [00:43:26] Oh, it sucks. There's nights of crying. There's days of being angry. There's times of, as I shared my spiritual trauma episode of my hands shaking, my arms going numb, of having a headache all day, of your body reacting in just a negative way because you're carrying all this with you. Like, yeah, there's a burden there. I remember when I served as a bishop, people said, like, you'd have this weight on your shoulders. You'd have this mantle is what they called it. And I remember specifically feeling this heavier weight. It's real then. I think in some ways, this is no different. If not, if not to some greater extent,

John Dehlin [00:44:03] I relate. So you mentioned listening to the episode on you're not so smart about the backfire effect. How do you know that you're not contributing to the backfire effect and in reality, actually making the church entrench more. How do you know you're not actually making. Making things worse for the church and the leaders?

Influence, Reform, and the Future of Mormonism

Bill Reel [00:44:25] Yeah, that's certainly possible. When I look at the church, every positive social change it has made has been in reaction to the voice in the public arena. Right. In some ways, like whether it's women's rights, the way in which we framed membership, those who are African American or of color, the way we framed even the LGBT issue, or women participating by even something small like praying in conference. Every social change this church has made has been reactive to a conversation going on in the public arena about how it's needed. And so I think by all of us just being quiet and not talking about it, I don't think that gets us anywhere. And so is this doing harm? Maybe. Maybe there is some level of entrenching when you have these conversations, but I don't think there's any other choice. I think if something's going to change, somebody has to talk about it.

John Dehlin [00:45:26] What about Matt's argument that you're in some ways doing the church's bidding? And the way that I would restate this is the church is going to harm itself if the top leaders become all progressive. That's my view. We know through looking at Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcopalians, when Christian religions go soft, they lose members. So I think it's actually wise and self preserving for the leaders to remain orthodox. What would you say to the argument that people like you, Gina Colvin, Jana Reese, the neo apologists, by you guys existing in the church, you allow the church to have it both ways, to have their cake and eat it too. To be fundamentalist, orthodox and even harm people, but at the same time to keep as many members as possible in by the church being able to sort of indirectly or directly say, well, yeah, you could be a Bill Rill Mormon or a Gina Colvin Mormon. And as long as you're paying your money to the church and giving the church your reputation and your time, then you guys are helping the church have their cake and eat it too, so to speak.

Bill Reel [00:46:32] That feels like a really black and white perspective. It feels like it's either or, and I don't want to choose either one of those. Like, I want to make this space where the church can certainly hold its orthodoxy in some ways, while it also makes space for us to acknowledge that there's also other aspects that are unhealthy, that there are aspects that need something fixed and for us to be able to get there. And I don't need the church to say like, okay, from now on, guys, the Book of Mormon is not literal. From now on, the Book of Mormon historicity is. We're just throwing that out the window. Instead, what I need is the church to make a safe space for something less than the narrative it's preaching and it doesn't have to Turn it over to that. It doesn't have to say, like, this is the way we're gonna go. It just has to make room for it so that there's more than one plate at the table. And I think that it can do that without losing everything. That makes it. That makes it unique. That makes these truth claims specific to Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:47:38] All right, so what about Matt's argument that you are compounding the trauma by people looking up to you as a role model for staying in the church, and so you're actually compounding the trauma when otherwise people might just say, well, there aren't that many role models, so I'll just leave. You're experiencing trauma, and by being a role model for staying in the church, you're compounding the trauma of others.

Bill Reel [00:48:06] So, first, to validate that there is real trauma here, that there is real unhealthiness happening in Mormonism, and I would simply make the argument that, like, for some people to just, like, have their shelf fall, to just walk away from the church isn't healthy either, and that some people need some time to process this, whether they stay or whether they leave. And that anytime we slow people down. Excuse me.

John Dehlin [00:48:36] Bless you.

Bill Reel [00:48:36] Sorry about that. Anytime we slow people down to give them a chance to process and to kind of learn, like, how they reconcile all of this stuff, I think generally speaking, that's good for them. Think it's healthy with the recognition that for some, this is so deeply harming and so traumatic that the best thing for some people to do is just walk away.

John Dehlin [00:49:00] But what about the fact that you may be contributing to harm by being a role model for people staying?

Bill Reel [00:49:08] I think everything we do, there's a loss and a gain. I think everything we do is hurting or helping in some way. I don't think it's fair to say, like, I do all good and you do all bad. I think everything we do is a hodgepodge of good and bad positivity and negativity. So do I contribute to some of the harm of Mormonism?

John Dehlin [00:49:26] Sure.

Bill Reel [00:49:27] There are probably parents out there who listen to one episode of Mormon discussion and who say, look, Bill's making it work. Darn it. Why can't you make it work? Meanwhile, that person shared that episode, hoping that the parent would see the nuance right and start to make more safe space. So I'm sure that that happens. But on the other side, there's lots of positive feedback as well. And from my perspective, 98% of the feedback I get is positive. And so the worldview I have is that this is having a net positive gain.

John Dehlin [00:49:57] Totally. I love that answer. Thank you. That was helpful to me, actually. What about the argument that you're not doing anything unique? Matt made a really good point that before me and you, there was, you know, New Order Mormon and then there was Mormon stories and then stale DS and then a thoughtful faith, and then Mormon matters. And that what you're doing is sort of just rehashed what's been done before, just in a new cycle. Is there truth to that? And what are you doing that might be different from what others have done before you? And is it wrong if you are just rehash of what's been done before you?

Bill Reel [00:50:41] So I would say that you're right in terms or Matt's right in terms of. At any given moment, there's going to be various voices in Mormonism from various perspectives. And what we need to keep in mind is that today, this very day, today, somebody's shelf is going to fall and they're going to need a much softer voice.

John Dehlin [00:51:01] Right?

Bill Reel [00:51:01] They're going to need fair Mormon maybe they're going to need something soft that just starts to kind of edge them into this stuff. And there are other people who are in a place today where they need Mormon discussion or they need Mormon stories, or they need Mormon matters or thoughtful faith. Like, I don't want to, like, minimize that. And it's not fair for us all to say, like, oh, we've talked about masonry in temples before. We've already hashed it out a million times. Can we please move on? Because the reality is somebody today needs to have that conversation. And so is my voice unique in terms of, like, talking vulnerably about the issues? No, it sounds a lot like Mormon stories early on with Terrell Givens and Richard Bushman, but it is unique today. Right? It's a unique space I'm holding right now. And there's a. There's a segment of Mormonism's membership that needs this space right this second.

John Dehlin [00:51:52] Love that answer you're giving. Great answers, Bill. I just want to give you a thumbs up. Is that okay if I give you a thumbs up?

Bill Reel [00:52:00] Awesome. Awesome.

John Dehlin [00:52:02] What about Matt's argument that your influence is too small, too insignificant, that you're not making enough of a difference?

Bill Reel [00:52:10] Man, I don't care whether it's small or not. Like, I don't care if it's helping people, then it's helping people. And whether it's. Whether it's 4,000 people, 2,000 people, 37 people, or 50,000 people, I don't care. Like, I feel like these conversations help Mormonism to become more aware of itself, its unhealthiness and how much it's overreached on various issues. And I think long term that only means positive shifting for Mormonism. And so whatever little piece of that play I have a part in, then great, love it.

John Dehlin [00:52:45] What about Matt's argument that it's self imposed pain? Yeah, you're having pain, but you're imposing on yourself. You're banging your head against a wall. So if you're in pain, stop what you're doing, but don't whine about the pain. What about that argument that Matt seemed to be making?

Bill Reel [00:53:03] Up until a few months ago, I felt really capable of handling this trauma, this real tangible unhealthiness in Mormonism. In the last few months, I begin to recognize that I'm not handling it so well anymore. And so I think there's truth to what he said. Like, I'm inflicting pain on myself now. And I think all of us can only do that for so long.

John Dehlin [00:53:31] So you're saying there might be a limit to what you're able to do, right?

Bill Reel [00:53:35] There may be, yeah. All of us in our lives have to figure out when we can't cope with something, other ways of coping. And so whether it's a reduced amount of recording or responding to people, maybe that's the answer. I don't know what that answer is. I just know that when my body tells me that I can't do this anymore, then we have to do something else.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] So probably the biggest question is, how does this all end for you? Will you be excommunicated? I'll read what Craig wrote. Craig wrote, bill, I have a friend who works for the church who thinks that as of late, you're going down the same path John de Lind did, that you should face a disciplinary council too. I can see how a TBM would think that. So in your own words, how do you view your path differently from my. No, forget that question. But what do you think about the idea that you could eventually be in front of a disciplinary council? Are you prepared for that? What are your thoughts on the likelihood of that and how you'll handle it?

Bill Reel [00:54:36] Having watched some of these play out, I think you could speak to this as well as anybody. I don't think you can ever be prepared for it.

John Dehlin [00:54:43] Right.

Bill Reel [00:54:43] Like you're never really prepared for the anxiety and stress that comes from this thing that you always knew could possibly be laying just ahead of you. That said, like, I Hope to stay in. I hope to be Mormon till my last breath. That's where I am today. Like, that's where I want to be. Maybe it changes next week. Maybe it changes a month from now. Maybe it changes without me having any say in it changing. But that's where we're at today. And so I'm here and, like, do I want to be excommunicated? No. Do I realize that's going to bring tons of stress and anxiety to my life? Absolutely. All I'm trying to do, John, is have a conversation and encourage us as a people to be more vulnerable to, like, what's going on here and where we can be better. And, yes, I'm pushing that conversation as close to the edge as I can because I think it's important for all of us to get a feel for, like, where can we go and how can we do this? And what is the safe space that's out there? And so that's essentially kind of what I'm trying to do.

John Dehlin [00:55:51] And so you don't want to be excommunicated. What would you put the odds at at this point of a disparity council? Would you even venture to put odds on it?

Bill Reel [00:56:00] I have no idea. I mean, you'd have to ask somebody, somebody a little further up north from where I'm at in southern Utah.

John Dehlin [00:56:05] For me, it came down to the brethren telling me, stop your podcast, go silent, or we're holding a disciplinary council. What would you do if you were given that ultimatum?

Bill Reel [00:56:18] If I was given that ultimatum, and this is going to be the answer you're looking for, but if I was given that ultimatum, I would sit down with those closest to me, spend a few days having just a conversation about what do we do from here? What is the path? How do we maintain having some voice or not having a voice? Do I stay in the church at the expense of just being silent and sitting in a pew every week? I mean, that doesn't make a lot of sense either. And so I don't know, like, I don't know what the conclusion of that conversation would be, but I would grab the wisest voices in my life and sit down and spend a few days having a conversation.

John Dehlin [00:56:55] So you don't know yet there's a chance you would cease and desist, and there's a chance you would keep going. Right.

Bill Reel [00:57:00] And I would hope that the church wouldn't ask such a thing. But the fact that they've asked you says that they do ask such a thing.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] Well, that's what it came down to. It came down. If I. It does. It didn't matter what I had, the disbelief that I had expressed, it didn't matter. My public advocacy, they said, if you go silent, this will go away. And so that's, I think that's why I was excommunicated, is because Mormon stories got too big of an influence in a voice. And anyway, so that's, that's what, that is what it came down to for me.

Bill Reel [00:57:32] It'd be interesting. I hope it never comes to that. And if it does, like, I don't know what I would do. I just, I just know it would be well thought out.

John Dehlin [00:57:42] How much more time do you have, Bill?

Bill Reel [00:57:45] Five, maybe five or ten minutes tops.

John Dehlin [00:57:47] Okay, I'll read some comments from listeners. Let's see. Marianne writes, thank you both so much for this interview. This has been great for me. Joe writes, bill and John, thanks for choosing the truth and integrity over loyalty. TBMs are trapped in loyalty by no fault of their own. Brenda writes, if Bill gets X, there's no safe space, period. Wendy writes, one of the true gifts of a faith crisis is that we become more authentic and vulnerable. I love it that. I love it that John lynch is listening and he writes, this is John lynch, vice president of FairMormon. He writes, it's like John DeLand is going back and interviewing himself from four years ago. What do you think about that comment from John lynch again?

Bill Reel [00:58:37] I think there's thousands and thousands and thousands of members of the church going through this right now and to minimize another human being because they're going through a faith journey and they can't make this thing fit. I think it minimizes every person who's in this transition right now.

John Dehlin [00:58:53] And I'm not sure if he was, if he was writing that tongue in cheek or not, but so I'm assuming he was being good natured about that. Kimberly writes, does that make you mad? Did that comment make you mad, Bill?

Bill Reel [00:59:06] No, it doesn't make me mad. But what I worry about is whether we frame things in such a way that somebody who's in the dark night of the soul right now, like, feels like, oh, the only way I'm of worth is if I put this back together. And I think we need to honor the fact that some people can't put this back together and to have any kind of shame or marginalizing or comparison, like, oh, you fell off the path, just like everybody else fell off the path. I just don't think it does any good for this conversation.

John Dehlin [00:59:36] And in all seriousness, I think apologists would do much better to just simply continually legitimize the decision to leave the church. The pain, the difficulty. So I totally feel where you're coming from.

Bill Reel [00:59:55] We take when someone is a Catholic and the missionaries go into their home and they teach them discussions and that person commits to joining the Church of Jesus Christ live Latter Day Saints, and that person leaves Catholicism and comes into Mormonism. We applaud them, we honor them, we tell them how beautiful they were for making this really great choice and how happy their heavenly Father is with them. And when that same person ten years later leaves Mormonism to go do something else that they felt spiritually inclined and in their own development to do, why can we not honor that person in the same way?

John Dehlin [01:00:31] Love it. Kimberly Anderson, one of my favorite people on the planet, writes, bill's podcasts are the gentle voice I hope that my children will hear when they decide to look a little deeper into the bigger reasons why she decided to leave. Isn't that a nice tribute from Kimberly?

Bill Reel [01:00:46] Thank you, Kim. I love her. We had breakfast together probably about a year ago now, and we spent some time at Sunstone last year as well. And just a cool, cool lady.

John Dehlin [01:00:56] She's amazing. Okay, so I've got a thousand questions from listeners. I'll try and get to them. What is Radio Free Mormon?

Bill Reel [01:01:05] First of all, it's another podcast on my site. We're in the midst of turning the site kind of like what you've got, in a sense, in an umbrella with three or four other podcasts underneath that umbrella with me just being one of those podcasts. Radio Free Mormon is an anonymous guy, but his stuff is just great. I think the best podcast episode of 2017 thus far is his episode titled Wrong Roads, which goes into Elder Holland story with him and his son going down the wrong road and then being kind of figuring out the dead end and wondering why God told them to do that.

John Dehlin [01:01:37] What is if you had to describe what Radio Free Mormon is, what type of podcast is it? What's its angle?

Bill Reel [01:01:43] It is a deep dive into the historical stories of Mormonism, being completely blunt to just how messy it is and doing it with a sense of humor.

John Dehlin [01:01:56] And everyone wants to know who is the podcaster who does Radio Free Mormon?

Bill Reel [01:01:59] He is Anonymous, so time will tell.

John Dehlin [01:02:02] Do you know who it is?

Bill Reel [01:02:03] Sure, yeah, I know who it is.

John Dehlin [01:02:05] You know their identity.

Bill Reel [01:02:06] I know the secret identity. He goes into the phone booth and he changes just before recording.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] Okay, this is my question, and it's the question I was never able to answer. What change can the church make that's positive, that will satisfy you, that won't harm itself in terms of active members or money paid?

Bill Reel [01:02:30] So when you build your church on a narrative that we now know no longer holds up, I don't know that you can have it both ways. So I don't know that there's anything the church can do that opens up complete, safe space to the messiness of Mormonism without hurting itself. But that's what happens when you build your story on a story that doesn't hold up, right? That's what happens when I told people when I was a child, when I made up a story and lied, or I withheld or I described something incorrectly, like, now I have to go back and fix that, and I can't do that without causing myself some embarrassment and some shame.

John Dehlin [01:03:11] Are you happy with the essays the church put out? And does that make you feel better or worse about the state of the church and its future?

Bill Reel [01:03:22] You would have never seen those essays or anything like them 15, 20 years ago. So it's a step forward. At the same time, we know how whitewashed those essays are. And on top of that, like whoever put several months shy of her 15th birthday, I'd love for that person to come forward because we know they are not comfortable with the data point. Like they were so uncomfortable with a 14 year old marrying the prophet that they had to word it some other way.

John Dehlin [01:03:47] That's got to be Brian Hales. It's got to be.

Bill Reel [01:03:48] Whoever it is, whoever it is, they are embarrassed and they feel like they can't make that data point work.

John Dehlin [01:04:01] What would you say to someone who made the claim that you're trying to harm the church, but from within and that you putting on the cloak of an active, semi believing member is just a wolf in sheep's clothing kind of move?

Bill Reel [01:04:14] So there are tons of people right now who, as they read about Mormonism, are figuring out just what Bushman said, that the dominant narrative is not true. As they read that and think about that, they need somebody out there to help them make the connection or build the bridge to, to their orthodox family member who is not giving them any space or validation. And so what I hope to do with the podcast is to do just that, like to help connect the progressive or post Mormon to their believing orthodox member. And for that to happen, we all have to come to grips with the fact that our narrative is so far overreaching that drastic changes are needed. And so we have to make space for that conversation to occur. Any conversation that does that is going to be seen by the Orthodox member as threatening? Any conversation that does that, the apologist is going to see as threatening. But the reality is it has to happen if we're going to move out of this orthodox way. That doesn't fit.

Deal Breakers and What Remains

John Dehlin [01:05:13] Someone asked, what were the big deal breakers for you that broke your Orthodox faith? If you had to list three to five, what were the big ones?

Bill Reel [01:05:20] There wasn't any one issue. It was more of the overarching idea that why was I the only person in my ward who knew these things? Why was I the. Why was there no safe space to have a conversation? Why are our manuals so distorted in telling the data that we don't tell, like, the story the way it happened? Why do we need to paint Thomas Marsh as having leftover milk and strippings and Simon's right over having his name spelled wrong? Like, what is it about Mormonism that distances itself from any kind of safe conversation, distances itself from any kind of vulnerability? And one day I just woke up and realized, like, why doesn't everybody else know these things? And it becomes clear that the Church does not, at least up until recent and still, I think, even today, does not want us to really be talking about the problems with this narrative.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] So what could the Church do to satisfy you?

Bill Reel [01:06:10] At first, it just has to be open. It just has to say, like, yeah, we messed up and we made mistakes, and these are the mistakes, and here's the things we messed up. And maybe we have to backtrack on the. We don't give apologies and saying I'm sorry once in a while for the things we've done wrong. I don't think it's institutionally wrong for a current leader to apologize for what a past leader said or taught.

John Dehlin [01:06:31] But what if they've done focus groups and they know that apologies cause people to leave the Church? How do you expect these leaders to do anything? You've already acknowledged that any positive act they they make to satisfy you and others is going to harm the Church. How can you expect these leaders to take action that's going to harm the Church?

Bill Reel [01:06:54] I don't measure my life by whether me correcting my lies or my errors or my withholdings or my deceptiveness or my whitewashing. I don't gauge my life based on whether I can shield people from seeing that. And they're going to change their perception of me, right? So I don't understand for the Church, like, why its top priority would be that. Like, I don't care if we have 10 members or 20 million members, it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that I belong to a church that values honesty and forthrightness and vulnerability. And so if the church is using whether people leave or people stay as how it decides what it's going to do, then it's always going to have a distorted way of handling what it should do.

John Dehlin [01:07:41] But is it realistic to expect a church to harm itself?

Bill Reel [01:07:44] A church, no. But a true and living church, yes.

John Dehlin [01:07:48] What if it's not really a true and living church?

Bill Reel [01:07:50] Then I guess that depends on how it acts.

John Dehlin [01:07:56] What keeps you in really quickly? What are the parts of your faith that remain? And what keeps you in the church faithfully, like, spiritually, whatever.

Bill Reel [01:08:08] I love the community. I love the people. I love the. You always talk about loving the hymns. I love the hymns. We just sang Be Still My Soul last Sunday. It's a moving hymn. I love it. LDS history is fascinating to me. Like, I eat, sleep, and breathe Mormonism. I want to get up and I want to learn something new about the church today. Like, that's how I live my life. Like, I find Mormon theology and Mormon history to be deep and. And I love the messiness, and I love the conundrums and complexities and contradictions in our religion, and I love the conversations that go on. And I think in some ways, Mormonism is true in living in that. It is waking all of us up. We're all opening our eyes, and everybody who's tuning in right now, all of us could probably look back and the majority of us would say it was Mormonism that finally caused me to just open my eyes one day. And almost zero of those that go through that faith development, that cognitive development, look back and wish they could go back to where it was. Like, we all are grateful that we're where we're at now, that our eyes are open and we're living life, aware of what's going on. And I think Mormonism does that. And so whether it's theology, history, community, hymns, or a catalyst for faith development and cognitive development, find Mormonism valuable for all those reasons.

John Dehlin [01:09:28] People want to know if you've ever interacted with any general authorities or apostles of the church.

Bill Reel [01:09:33] I've had private emails in phone conversations with Elder Holland. I've had private phone and email conversations with Marlon Jensen. I wouldn't go into the specifics since they kept those private, at least on their end, but I would say, like, I don't find anybody having great solutions to the questions. We're all Asking. And it seems like at the end of the day, everybody just says, like, yeah, it's messy, but have faith.

John Dehlin [01:10:01] Is there anything you can share about your conversations with Holland and Jensen?

Bill Reel [01:10:09] Only that as long as it feels. Again, I could be wrong, but it feels like as long as they perceive that they might be able to get you back to orthodoxy or to a firm place far inside, away from the edge, that communication continues. But the moment they sense like it's not going to be helpful, then they don't tend to carry those conversations on anymore.

John Dehlin [01:10:35] That's reasonable, right? They have limited time.

Bill Reel [01:10:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:38] Were they able to resolve any of your concerns? Did you find them to be men of integrity? Slimy. Like what? You know, is there anything you're wanting to say about that?

Bill Reel [01:10:50] When you were asking the. The rapid fire questions and I was struggling to give you a straight answer on any one of those questions, I often feel like that's what it's like when you interact with general authorities is that there really isn't good answers sometimes these questions, and they really don't want to be on the record addressing any of those specifically. And so it feels sometimes like you're being dismissed a little bit at the same time. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know what else they could do. Like, I don't know what else they could. They could throw at you. Like, it helped at the time. It helped me go another three months without being back in that same place again. But it isn't a long term fix.

John Dehlin [01:11:30] Got it. All right, well, I think we're running up against the time you need to go. We have sustained well over 230 live listeners throughout this entire podcast. We've had over 5,000 views just of the live episode, which I'm really happy about. I just want to give a shout out to all our listeners live. You guys made this interview? No, sorry. 6,869 views so far. That extends well beyond once we release it. So. What a great interview, Bill. What are your final comments you want to make about your beliefs, about where you are now, about the future, about your podcast? Give us your closing statements, closing beliefs, your closing testimony, whatever you want to share, and unmute yourself.

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

Bill Reel [01:12:20] Yep. Sorry. I had a phone ring there in the background, so I wanted to wait till it was done.

John Dehlin [01:12:23] No worries.

Bill Reel [01:12:26] I would simply end saying, like, we all know Mormonism is messy. We all know there's not good answers to the problematic questions. We can put up apologetics all we want, but the reality is the 15 to 25 of the most problematic questions just don't have good answers and we've got to come to grips with that. And I know some of us are still trying to figure out ways like, oh, I've got to put this all back in the box the way it was before. And I think it's valuable to learn, like that's not normal. Most of us aren't able to do that even in our lives. Like we progress and we grow, we change and we, we develop. What I would say with Mormonism is that Mormonism for me was worth wrestling with. It still is worth wrestling with. And so I know some people leave and I know some people have to leave because the trauma is just so deep. But I would also suggest that for others, like there is value in staying in this thing. There is value in wrestling with this. And for me it has been just a huge catalyst for personal development. It has been a huge catalyst for my own empathy, for my own understanding of others, for my own ability to take other people's perspectives. Like sitting in your tribe and being different than your tribe has been beneficial to me, while at the same time absolutely validate those. It's also been painful, but for me it's been worth it.

John Dehlin [01:13:44] Are you going to be okay, Bill? Are you going to take care of yourself?

Bill Reel [01:13:48] I know often within Mormonism we talk about self care and I've got a good group of friends who know when the time is right and they, they take me out and we go do some fun things and find ways to just walk away from this for a couple of days at a time.

John Dehlin [01:14:05] Can I ever come?

Bill Reel [01:14:06] Oh, I'd love to have you, John. That'd be a blast. Yeah, we'd love to do it.

John Dehlin [01:14:11] It's a St. George posse.

Bill Reel [01:14:13] It is, it is the St. George posse and also a few friends from Henderson, Nevada. And one Sunday there was the lesson 24 on Ryder and Marsh and I just, I knew after having emails with the teacher, I couldn't go that day and my friends took me away and we went out on a boat on Lake Mead and did some rafting and some skiing and stuff. It was just a blast.

John Dehlin [01:14:37] All right, well, I'd love to join you guys, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold you to that.

Bill Reel [01:14:41] Okay? I have to run, my friend.

John Dehlin [01:14:42] Alright, Bill Rill, what's the podcast? URL. If people want to listen.

Bill Reel [01:14:46] Mormondiscussionpodcast.org and what about the other one? They're all found on that website.

John Dehlin [01:14:52] Okay, love you, brother. Great job. Sure appreciate you joining. All right.

Bill Reel [01:14:56] Bye. Bye.

John Dehlin [01:14:57] And I just want to thank our listeners for joining us today on Mormon Stories podcast. It's been great. Bill was wonderful. If you guys want to help Mormon Stories and you're not able to financially contribute, I just want to give you a couple ways you can help us. One would be to like us our Mormon Stories podcast page on Facebook. Another one would be to give us a five star review on the Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page. That won't cost you anything. It'll help us significantly. We've had some detractors recently try and give us negative reviews who clearly didn't even listen to the podcast. So you guys will help us have a better average review. I would also love to have more itunes reviews. So if you could go to itunes, log in itunes, go to the Mormon Stories podcast and give us a five star rating and a positive review, that would help us a lot. Of course, we want to thank everyone who donates financially to Mormon Stories, the Open Stories Foundation. Your donations keep us going. I also want to ask if you value this programming, please don't be a free rider. Please contribute 10, 20, 50, $100 a month, whatever you can afford. We promise that we'll always be transparent with our finances. We'll always use the money to grow the influence of the podcast. We have Amy Grubbs, who's our director of operations. We have Cody Layton who helps us with production. We have new people that are helping us with the events and we're grateful for them. There's so much expense that goes into accountants and events and it in the background and marketing and other types of expenses that we just really need. We really need your support to make all this possible. So please, please, please support us financially and we'll do good things with your contributions. We also want to shout out to Sharon Price who helps us with the events. She's been doing a great job. And again, please support us so that we can keep the Open Stories foundation going and keep the mission going. Thanks to everyone who joins us live. Please please share our podcast episodes on your Facebook page or on Twitter. On Instagram. Please check out our Instagram feed, like us on Instagram or follow us on Instagram. We are now starting to do things on Instagram and we would love your support there as well. To close. Sure love you guys. Sure love this episode. Way better even than I thought it would be. And I thought it would be great. So thanks everyone for joining us. Check us out tonight, we'll be live streaming. Hopefully our interview with Grant Palmer about his book Restoring leaving Mormon Jesus for the Jesus of the Gospels will be talking specifically about the possibility of Joseph Smith and church leaders committing treason, which is a new chapter in his book, along with the new chapter in his book that focuses heavily on concubinage, on Joseph Smith's use of concubines or the blessings of Jacob, as he called them. In addition to polygamy and polyandry and spiritual wifery. He also talks about abortions, which has been a common allegation. Joseph Smith in the Nauvoo era so thanks again to everyone. Check out Mormon Matters podcast with Dan Witherspoon, a thoughtful faith podcast with Gina Colvin, Mormon Mental Health with Natasha Alfer Parker and after August, Margi will be tuning in again with us to help out with Mormon Stories, and a podcast not yet named or mentioned is in the works. So thanks again to everyone for joining us. Please tune in again soon. We love you guys. Thanks for listening and we'll see you guys again soon on Mormon Stories. Take care everybody. Love you guys. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

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