Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 767

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. The kindly light amid encircling gloom

Margi Dehlin [00:00:43] Lead

Guest [00:00:43] thou me on the night is dark.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John de Lynn. It is July 11, 2017 and I am so excited to also welcome my brilliant co host.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:04] Thank you, babe. Margi here. Nice to see you all.

John Dehlin [00:01:08] We are very delighted to have you guys joining us today on Facebook Live. We have several distinguished guests with us, but before we introduce them, we'll welcome all our live participants on Facebook Live and and we'll just do a quick few announcements. Really quick. We got some feedback that people want the announcements to be briefer, so we'll dive right in. In the Open Stories foundation, we're committed to supporting people who are affected by religious transition and we've created workshops and events and retreats to support people. They're amazing events. Dan Witherspoon, Natasha Helfer Parker are holding a Mormon Matters retreat July 14th through 16th in Salt Lake City. Go to mormonmatters.org if you want to participate in that event. It's this weekend. We have, with Julie de Azevedo Hanks, a mixed faith marriage retreat. We have, I think we have at least 10 couples, maybe 20 couples, a lot of couples who are joining us. We can use a few more. So August 11th through 12th, if you want to join me and Julie D' Azevedo Hanks to talk about mixed faith marriages. It's going to be an excellent retreat. September 14th, 15th will be in Seattle. October 20th, 22nd, we'll be in Sydney, Australia. And Carolyn Pearson, you'll be delighted to know hopefully that we'll be in the Bay Area November 9th through 10th, and we're excited to bring one of our workshops and retreats to you guys. If any of you want to host a Mormon Stories workshop or retreat in 2018, we're taking nominations now, so please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and tell us. What we're looking for is a city that'll have a critical mass of 20 to 40 or more participants and if you're interested, please email us. We'd love to have you. And of course, we're doing a cruise, our first ever Mormon Stories cruise to the Bahamas in fall of 2018. That's October 24 through 28. Upcoming topics for this portion of Mormon Stories, Margi and I are going to be covering conscious parenting soon. So parenting children after a faith transition. We're going to be talking about women recreating their lives after going through a faith transition. And we're going to be doing a series on Mormon stories about apologetics, sort of Taro Givens, you know, that sort of apologetics, fair farms, etc. So please tune in and reach out if you have ideas or suggestions on all that. It is now time. I hope that was short enough. Was that short enough?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:55] It was shorter.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:03:56] That was shorter.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] Okay. All right. I hope our listeners like the brevity of those announcements. It's time for the weekly share that Margi and I do. So, Margi, why don't you take it away?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:07] Okay, so I have a deeper share this week that I thought I would give since Carolyn is joining us. I've actually told Carolyn this story kind of thing before. So I have a deeper share and then a lighter share. So I'll go ahead. Maybe I'll start with the deeper share of. So, Carolyn Pearson, here's a book, poetry that, oh, I got a few years ago, maybe several years ago even, and read. And amidst my experience with my dad and caretaking with my dad as he progressed with his Lewy Body Disease, he became less vocal at times where it would be difficult to communicate. Communication became more challenging. My dad was a lover of literature, a lover of poetry. And I would sit with this book and I would read him the poetry from the book. And I probably did this over a year. So there was a bit of decline from the beginning of the year when we started, he could actually read. Toward the end of the year, he could no longer read, but he would just weep. He would just cry as I would read the poem. So I just thought I would mention this book. The poetry is phenomenal, really lovely. Along with that experience, the title of

John Dehlin [00:05:35] the book, for those who are listening, is In Love Again and Always Love Poems by Carolyn Pearson. So check it out. It's worth it.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:05:46] I love that story, Margi. And I put that story into my diary. How you.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:55] Oh, thank you. So, a lighter share. I just like to share something that's bringing me joy. And this week it's been something really simple. I think it tends to be but it's been strawberries, fresh strawberries with melted whatever chocolate you have. And I just dip them in the chocolate, I stick them on a little plate, put them in the freezer for a few minutes for them to harden up a little bit. And you have like a great treat. And it's cold. It's been making me happy. So there you go. It's the little things, people.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:06:26] Yay.

John Dehlin [00:06:28] So my weekly share is that Margi was starting to feel and I was starting to feel, the whole family was starting to feel like my work was invading every aspect of our life, if I can be honest and candidate. And so I made a deal with Margi that I would leave my cell phone in my office when I was done working. And that past 6 o' clock I wouldn't be on it. And in the morning I wouldn't get on it until 8:30 when work began. So basically quarantining off the evenings and the mornings from work so that I could be more present with the family. How's it been going?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:10] It's been beautiful. How do you feel like it's been?

John Dehlin [00:07:13] I think I'm more conscious, I'm more connected, I'm more present and I'm less irritated and I enjoy my mornings and evenings more.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:25] Brilliant. Way to go, babe.

John Dehlin [00:07:27] So that's our share.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:29] That's your share. I think you should do the other share too. The little pleasure to share.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] Oh, and Margi, I'll be a little vulnerable. Margi and I went to a life coach to just kind of talk about. It's been a rough year. So we went to a coach who does couples counseling today and it was a really good experience. And it's a little bit weird for a therapist to go to a therapist, so to speak. I mean, I have six years training in psychology and I help people in their marriages. And here we are deciding that we wanted to go to one too.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:05] It's really weird or it's really healthy.

John Dehlin [00:08:08] Probably healthy. Probably healthy. Jana's laughing at me. Jana Spangler is the coach too. But anyway, we went to a coach and it was really great. But you wanted me to talk about. After we went to Del Taco and I had an amazingly yummy meal. I had two fish tacos and beans and rice.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:25] It was beaming.

John Dehlin [00:08:27] Little chips and salsa was just off

Margi Dehlin [00:08:28] the charts for you. It was like the perfect.

John Dehlin [00:08:31] We enjoy Del Taco. So that's my share.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:34] Yeah, we're just making it real, bringing it down.

John Dehlin [00:08:39] All right, so that's our. That's our share. So we're very excited to begin this episode. I haven't really vetted this title with our panelists. Originally it was titled Middle Way Mormonism, but I don't think people really know what that means. So I changed the title to call it Progressive Mormonism, but actually didn't check with Carolyn Pearson, Jana Reese or Jana Spangler to even see if they liked being called progressive Mormons. So we're gonna talk about that. But basically we've been talking about on Mormon Stories for the past several weeks. Staying in the LDS Church as a semi believer progressive, non member believer, non believing, I don't know participant. We had the A thoughtful faith panel on. We've had other we interviewed Derek Clements. We've done some great stuff there. But we thought it would be fabulous to have on a few more panelists to talk about how to stay constructively engaged in Mormonism as a unorthodox or unorthoprax participant. And so for our panel today, we have three people. Carolyn Pearson, Jenna Reese, and Jenna Spangler. The first two have been on Mormon Stories before. And Janice Bengler, I think this is your first time. So, Carolyn, because you're the pioneer amongst us, why don't you just go ahead and introduce yourself to the guests who don't know who you are. Welcome to Mormon Stories. Welcome back.

Introducing the Three Guests

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:10:14] Well, thanks, John, and great to be with you too, Margi. And I really appreciate seeing you as a couple in your own so a brief introduction to me. Yes, I am I expect the older of the group here and I am deeply rooted in Mormon and I expect to stay that way until I die and then who knows what will happen after we're dead. I have become known as writer and one who life has called to address interesting issues. Most people who know of me have heard of, I guess my signature piece, the book that I wrote about my life with my husband called Goodbye, I love you. And so those issues around homosexuality and the women's issues into which I was born have been the focus of what you would call my progressive Mormonism. And I'm fine with the word progressive. I think we should make progress. And of course, just change doesn't mean progress, but I certainly am committed to being progressive.

John Dehlin [00:11:37] Well, it's such a pleasure to have you back. Thank you for joining us, Carolyn.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:11:42] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:11:43] For those of you who haven't checked out her interview on Mormon Stories, it's like five hours long and it's epic. It's definitely worth checking out and we're glad to have you. Jana Reese, we have Your book here as well, or at least one of them props. It's called Flunking Sainthood. We had you on Mormon Stories to talk about the book Flunking Sainthood. A Year of Breaking the Sabbath, Forgetting to pray, and still loving my neighbor, Dr. Jana Reiss. Jana, why don't you tell our listeners a bit about yourself, if you don't mind.

Guest [00:12:16] Well, thanks for having me on the show. It's great to be back. Although, as I have told you privately, I was not thrilled that you've moved to video because I had to get out of my pajamas, which sucks. But so here we all are. I think the best way to say I, you know, I have no problems with the word progressive applied to myself, unless it's about getting rid of the Oxford comma, in which case I would tell you there is no freaking way that I'm progressive. So it's good that we are progressive on some things and maybe we're very traditional about other things. In terms of the church, I am a believing Mormon. I'm an active Mormon. I am constantly negotiating, which I think is what we're here to talk about, how that belief and practice will play out in my daily life. And I'm a convert to the church. I converted when I was about 23 years old. And. And I'm the only Mormon in my family. So we also have sort of the interfaith family dynamic to work out what else. I'm a writer. You've talked about one of my books. And I guess relevant to your audience is that I'm working on a book now called the Next the Rising Generation of Latter Day Saints, which is based on social science research into four generations of Mormons and trying to determine is change happening in the LDS Church among current Mormons. If we also sampled former Mormons to try to find out why they left and some of what characterizes their lives now after Mormonism. So if any of that comes up, I'm always happy to talk about it.

John Dehlin [00:13:55] Love it.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:56] Interesting.

John Dehlin [00:13:57] And you have a graduate degree from Columbia, is that right?

Guest [00:14:01] I do. I have a doctorate in the history of religion in the United States.

John Dehlin [00:14:05] Yeah. Well, welcome back, Janarice. It's a delight to have you, as always. Thanks for joining us.

Guest [00:14:10] Thank you. And it's so great to not be the only Jana. So this is you.

John Dehlin [00:14:15] Yeah. We've got the Janice today. Janice Spangler. Welcome for the first time to Mormon Stories. It's great to have you.

Guest 2 [00:14:22] Thank you. It's great to be here.

John Dehlin [00:14:23] So tell us just a bit about yourself.

Guest 2 [00:14:27] Okay. So I was born and raised in the church, and I would say that my upbringing wasn't terribly strict, but it was. It was very consistent. And I probably started kind of questioning

Margi Dehlin [00:14:46] things,

Guest 2 [00:14:50] you know, probably over the last three and a half years. And three years ago, I had a pretty hard shelf crash. So I've been dealing with things since then, trying to figure out what my path is, and it changes regularly. This is definitely not a path you stay still on. So what I say today and how I feel today could be different a month from now. But I. So I'm a life coach with Symmetry Solutions, and I'm really enjoying my work there and I don't know what else.

John Dehlin [00:15:24] All right, that's perfect. That's great. Yeah, we'll check in. We want to encourage our live listeners. We have 63 live listeners right now. Want to welcome them all. Lisa writes Janice Spangler with three exclamation points. Jeralee says, I love and adore these women. Shout out to Jeralee, who actually helped put this panel together. Jeralee, we love you and we're grateful for your help with this and many other things. Carolyn Pearson, you'll be interested to hear that Sandy writes. Carolyn, I've read your poetry since I was a teenager and some of your books. Goodbye, I love you was amazing. I lost one of my best friends to AIDS years ago, and it touched me deeply. Carolyn, really quick. Plug your newest book. Just really quick.

Recent Work and Current Projects

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:16:09] Oh, really quick. My newest book is called the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy Haunting the Hearts and Heaven of Mormon Women Men. And I think in some ways it is maybe the most important book that I have put out there. I'm very thrilled at how this book has turned out and how it's being received.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] Yeah, check it out. And, Carolyn, I have no idea why I haven't interviewed you about that book. I don't know if it's my fault or yours, but there needs to be some reconciliation there, atonement or something.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:16:46] Okay, we can talk, John.

How Each Guest's Faith Became Progressive

John Dehlin [00:16:47] All right. Okay, so let's jump into this interview. Let's go back around the horn and have each of you briefly discuss what was it that made your faith become maybe more complex? And it's hard to do in a minute or two. But, Carolyn, we'll start with you. You've probably already referenced it a bit, but what would you say the defining moments were in your life where your faith all of a sudden went from orthodox to unorthodox?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:17:19] Well, there was really no really specific time. I do give a good history of this, in the book that we just mentioned, the ghost of Eternal Polygamy. I was born into women's issues. I just was. And that meant that I looked around from the get go and said, wait, what's wrong with this picture? Why is it. Why is it? That is the obvious, that my femaleness is second in value to the maleness of the voice that I'm going to school with. And so all of that was right in the forefront of my awareness. And then, of course, when I learned about polygamy and when my seminary teacher bore his testimony that this is a divine principle and that we young women, though we're selfish now, we will lose that and be thrilled to be. That's the way God lives. Those things all landed in my mind and were very, very troublesome to me. The major point that I can look back on and understand, well, the way I describe it in this new book, is that when heaven has an earthquake, you kneel and feel around for the broken pieces of God. And that is how I felt after I learned that my marriage to my husband was not what both of either one of us had anticipated, that he would be cured by being righteous, cured from being gay, from being all the righteous things that he was doing. When that did not happen and when all of my ongoing questioning about the obvious, the second class citizenship of femaleness in the church from God on down, when those things all came together and it just pretty much exploded and I really did kneel and pick up all of the broken pieces of my whole world, including the church, including God, examined everyone carefully and decided which ones felt godly that I would keep to construct a new concept of the divine and a new concept of the church that I felt I could maintain with more on my own terms than I had before. So that was a very major time for me then.

John Dehlin [00:20:02] All right, that all makes sense. And for those who really want to hear about Carolyn's pioneering work in women's issues, including Mother Woe of the Morning, including My Turn on Earth, including Goodbye, I Love youe and many, many other things again, check out her podcast, my podcast with her Generise. I'm not sure how much this question applies to you, because I get the sense that you sort of came to Mormonism as a convert with some progressiveness or complexity in your faith. Is that true?

Guest [00:20:40] Yeah, I came on board with a subscription to Sunstone and Dialogue already back in 1993, so I had both eyes open. And when I was, I was studying to be a pastor, so I was a student in a theological seminary when I became a Mormon, which is a little weird, admittedly, but I remember sitting in the stacks on the floor at Firestone Library at Princeton University and just pulling down bound groups of dialogue issues and reading them. And that was, for me, one of the most formative introductions to the faith, because I had had a conversion experience to the Book of Mormon. I had had a conversion experience to several key aspects of Mormon theology. But it was very important for me, if I was going to be changing my life in this really molecular way, to know that I was not going to be required to check my brain at the door and that I would be in a company, a fellowship of other thinking and believing people. So I did make the decision to be baptized. Oddly, my baptism actually happened in September of 1993, which was not a great month for feminists and intellectuals in the church, or wannabe intellectuals, pseudo intellectuals. Boyd K. Packer put it. So that was a very inauspicious time to be a progressive Latter Day Saint. And I was aware of what was going on because I was reading about it in the New York Times. And so I knew that as I went into the water and I felt almost a sense of resistance in feeling, you know, I have a testimony. I have a love of this church and a love of this gospel, but I apparently am not the sort of convert they want. I am not the droid they're looking for. And that's hurtful, you know. And so as I was going in the water, I was thinking, they're gonna have to kick me out if they want me to leave this church, because I'm not leaving on my own. And I still feel that way.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] I can relate to those feelings.

Guest [00:22:48] Sorry, I didn't mean to put it so baldly, John. I wasn't actually being very sensitive.

John Dehlin [00:22:54] No, I'm relating. That's good. Thank you, Jenna. We'll have a follow up. Thank you, Jenna Reese. Beautiful, both of you. And Carolyn. Okay, Jana Spangler, how about you? When did your faith get complex? What happened?

Guest 2 [00:23:10] Okay, so for me, over the past six years or so, I've been doing a lot of personal development. And so I got really interested in people like Brene Brown and a host of others. And I started watching Oprah's Super Soul Sunday, which is still one of my favorite shows. And I just got really influenced by so many of the people that she interviews. And so people like Richard Rohr.

John Dehlin [00:23:43] Okay, Jenna. And Thich Nhat Hanh and Jenna, repeat. You froze up for a second.

Guest 2 [00:23:49] Okay. Oh, sorry about that.

John Dehlin [00:23:50] We heard Richard Rohr just go back to the list.

Guest 2 [00:23:54] Okay, so Richard Rohr, Thich Nhat Hanh, Rob Bell, you know, a million others. I can't even name them all, but it was so influential on me. And I felt what I would say, just a deep spiritual connection to these people and a deep truth in what I was hearing. And it was so much more influential to me than what was happening at church. And at some point I started going, why am I not getting that same fulfillment as I listened to General Conference? Why is this not filling me in the same way? If we have the truth, why is it not feeling right to me? And it was really confusing. And in the midst of that, I think I was just having a hard time. I was feeling a little depressed, reaching out to God, trying to feel like because that's where I'm supposed to go to get comfort is God, and yet I'm not feeling him. And started questioning if I'd ever felt him, and started questioning everything. And the first time I opened my mouth to a few people that I knew to discuss that those conversations did not go well. And as very faithful people that I looked up to spoke to me and could not even make an allowance for the experience I was going through, I think in that moment is when my shelf crashed and I thought, something is wrong with this when I can't be honest and have that be honored. And so I think almost overnight I went from thinking I knew everything to feeling like I knew nothing. And it was very disorienting. And I really relate to what Carolyn said about picking up the pieces. I feel like that has been my process. When I read Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, that really resonated with me because I feel like that's what I've done. And I was just determined not to pick up anything that I didn't really authentically connect to. So I've been on that journey ever since.

Labels and Identity as Progressive Mormons

John Dehlin [00:26:03] Carolyn Pearson, do you have a label that you use to describe your type of Mormonism or do you eschew labels?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:26:12] Oh, no, I don't. I really don't. I try not to label myself as this or that or the other. I may be just a weird Mormon to some people. I'm kind of a conundrum, I think to a variety of people who think how she been able to get away with all the things that she's done. But I have an interesting path. And I have been not only allowed my interesting path, but I have been welcomed on my interesting path. And I. And I've never pretended to be anything other than who I am and what I really feel. And, of course, I've been blessed to have. Geographically, I. This may sound strange to a lot of people, but I've always felt that my ward really loves me and that my stake really loves me. In fact, a few years ago, I remember I was standing in the foyer, and my bishop and stake president just happened to be there together. And I walked up to them both and I said, gentlemen, because I can see you right together here, I want to take the occasion to thank the both of you again for the generosity that you have expressed toward me being such a strange but really good part of the ward and the state. I want to thank you for not just tolerating me, but for, I think, appreciating me. And at that moment, my then state president said, carolyn, I wish I could clone you. Now. I wish that all weird Mormons or progressive Mormons or whatever you want to call them would be able to find a congregation with enough regular, ordinary people in it. But maybe, though, they don't believe everything you do, or maybe they're really kind of alarmed at certain things to still feel very much to embrace you, as I have felt embraced even by the people in my own ward that I know have a variety of points of view on issues that are important to me. That's one thing that I wish everyone could have, is leadership that I have experienced as being so really fun and generous to me.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] Elder Holland once told me and my brother, he wished that he could clone us as well. So I was told that once, too. Didn't work that a little bit differently, but easy there? No, but I think we should have thousands of Carolyn Pearson in the church. I think that would be wonderful. So, Carolyn, I'm gonna just follow up, and then, Jennarise, you're next. So when somebody says, are you Mormon or what religion are you? For me, when I was active, I had a hard time just saying, yep, I'm a Mormon, partly because of the church's stance on women, LGBT people, people of color. I didn't feel comfortable not adding some qualifier, because otherwise I would have felt embarrassed and. Or concerned that they would then assume that I was a bigot. And so I'm just wondering how you deal with that type of concern in your own willingness to own your Mormon label, in spite of all the baggage it probably comes with by certain groups of people or most of the world.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:29:59] Yeah, well, I've been able to do that, John, without a lot of angst. And I'm remembering, especially when I was going out performing my play Mother Wool of the Morning, which I did over 300 times. And the publicity may have indicated that I was a Mormon. But always then or since then or prior to then, when people found out or inquired about my religion, I would say, yes, I belong to the Mormon Church and I'm comfortable leaving it at that. Unless somebody wants to say, wow, okay, what about this or that? And then I'm very, very open that I am also an activist within my community on issues that are important to me. So I just take that as it happens to be there and I'm myself

Guest [00:31:02] with

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:31:05] all of my history and my present and the things that I'm working on and somehow it just works out beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:31:15] Jana Rees, how do you handle that question? What religion are you or are you Mormon?

Guest [00:31:24] I'm 47 years old. I just say I'm a Mormon. I mean, there's a really interesting passage in one of Lauren Winner's books after she's converted from orthodox Judaism to Anglican Christianity. And well, at that point she was more evangelical and she was asked, you know, are you a Christian? And she was battling with the same phenomenon. You know, I want them to know that I'm a Christian but I wear fishnet stockings. Or I want them to know that I'm a Christian but I read books and you know, travel the world, whatever it is. I think you, I think you become more comfortable in your core identities and, and Mormonism is one of my core identities. Maybe because I'm constantly expressing my views online as a blogger, I don't feel the need to talk about it when I'm introduced to people. I don't feel the need to qualify Mormon with something else. But perhaps if I weren't a writer, I would feel that need. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:28] It's an interesting point.

John Dehlin [00:32:30] Love it. All right, so two proud self described Mormons. Jana Spangler, let's see if you fill out the trifecta or not.

Guest 2 [00:32:43] Yeah, I think I have not been doing this as long as these two ladies and I hope to be much more comfortable in that someday. So often I don't even know what to say when people ask. You know, at the core of it, yes, of course I'm Mormon, but I do, I guess I do feel like certain assumptions are made of me just given that label. And so I do feel like I want to qualify that in some way and I never know quite how to do that. It really is difficult and it depends on who I'm speaking with. But yeah, I mean, I would, I identify with so many of the different labels that people use, I identify with progressive. I identify with, you know, I don't know. Probably agnostic is a good one for me. I've been hanging out with Thomas McConkey a lot and learning a lot about mindfulness meditation. I understand he's been referred to as the Budeo Mormon, and I kind of like that. I'm kind of trying that one on for size. That's definitely part of me, but, you know, it really just depends on who I'm speaking to and how much they know about it. And, you know, it's actually sparked a lot of really interesting conversations with people. When I do start to kind of qualify it a little bit, then we can go a little deeper and they'll ask questions, and it's led to some really good conversation.

John Dehlin [00:34:15] Beautiful.

The Most Valuable Aspects of Their Faith

Margi Dehlin [00:34:16] I'm curious for each of you what some of the most valuable aspects of your faith are for you. Sort of those deep wells, those deep sort of connections that fulfill you and literally fill you up. I just love to hear what they are for you. So we could start with. How about we start with Janarice?

Guest [00:34:42] When I was meeting with the missionaries long, long ago, I remember praying with them at one point and then feeling the love of God in a way that I hadn't felt it before, which was kind of ridiculous because when I was 14, I became a Presbyterian, and then I kind of became involved with evangelicalism. I had had a lot of experiences of God's character and learning about God. And so I've puzzled over this. Why was I having that particular experience of this. This overwhelming love in a Mormon context when I hadn't had it necessarily in that same way before? I don't have a good answer for that, but I do feel that there is something tangible about the way that Mormons understand the love of God. And part of it has to do with this blissful theology that we have about the material world and the body, that we are embodied spirits, that we have this goodness innately, which is somewhat different from the core of the Western classical Christian tradition. So those are things that I cherish about Mormonism, and I wish that they were things that were emphasized more when we talk about our faith rather than. So many of the things that are emphasized now have to do with a very particular definition of the family or with very particular kinds of behaviors that have come to characterize Mormonism in the late 20th and early 21st centuries that were not necessarily part of Mormonism in its own classical expression. You know, I love our theology, and I Wish we talked about it more.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:28] Nice. How about you, Carolyn?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:36:36] The thing that I maybe value above all is a hands on community that is truly trying to create Zion. And I know there are, there are lots and lots of holes in that and lots and lots of stumbles in the way that is happening. But I happen to truly love the Mormon community and I honestly believe that you're not going to find a group of people anywhere who are trying harder to actually be good people and to make the world better and to help one another out. And I love the unique. Well, maybe there may be other communities that can do this, but the immediate availability of help and kindness and love when you need it is to me quite remarkable. And not only to be, to know that all of that is available to you when you find that you are in very desperate need of that, but to know that you are on call all the time when, if something comes up that somebody needs you. And you know, I'm sort of a visiting teacher at large and I have been called on because of my specialties by Stake President or by a bishop to say, okay, this one has your name on it. I want you to take it. And I think it's, it's wonderful to have that kind of availability in a community where there are so many people in this world who are really fine, excellent people, but don't have a ready made network that can be there to bless them and to make a place for their own blessing who can go out to whoever needs it. So my appreciation for Mormon really does begin right here on the ground and I could list a lot of the concepts and the idea that we have, all of us have a divine destiny. I hold on to that and that is a very strong, beautiful thing for me. I have to throw out of that basket a lot of things that often go along with that that I will not accept. I'm really through with thinking about the three degrees of glory and then the three degrees in the top degree. I think we've got a lot of misunderstanding about and a lot of unnecessary pain. And I have to, I have to do extra work around the idea that I'm here to become like God because God is always offered to us in his maleness. And I have to constantly rewrite the script for myself. I have to constantly be brave enough in my own private prayers and occasionally with prayers of books, people who understand and trust me that I will not approach God in any way that is not both mother and father together. And of course Joseph gave us that hint as have a lot of people throughout history. The idea of a divine feminine is certainly nothing unique to Mormonism. But I guess what I'm saying is that so many of the really clearly beautiful theological offerings of the church I have to rewrite for myself as I experience them, because I'm not going to live in a concept where femaleness is the secondary or maleness is the center of the universe and femaleness tells us around that. I rewrite parts of Mormonism all the time in order to make it feel like the truth that Joseph said we accept truth wherever it comes from. And so I feel free to do that in my own voice.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:30] Yeah, it sounds like Jana Reese, you were talking a bit about renegotiation and Carolyn Pearson, you as well, renegotiating some of those things. Jana Spangler, how about you? Are there what for you would you say are the most valuable aspects for you right now with regard to your faith, if any, that are standing out?

Guest [00:41:55] Yeah,

Guest 2 [00:41:57] it's probably a harder question for me. I mean, I really think I've been so deconstructing everything for so long that I'm more in the deconstruction than really appreciating phase. You know, I feel some of that coming back, but I think it takes time. But one of the things in addition to, I mean, like again, like Carolyn said, just having the opportunity to be around people who really are striving to for something bigger than themselves and something better has been really a blessing to me that honestly I don't think I recognized until I was through a faith transition. I think I took that for granted completely my entire life. But I think the other thing that has been really alive for me lately is just the ability to learn from one another because of our lay ministry. Like, I think that is powerful in a way. Again, I don't think I always appreciate it. That being said, it's also one of the most frustrating things for me. It is a double edged sword because it can be super hard, super hard. But you know, for the last two years I've been able to serve as a Relief Society instructor and I have just really appreciated, as hard as it's been at times, I have really appreciated the opportunity to read through those lessons and figure out what I could actually teach that would be authentic. And it's given me such an amazing opportunity. I don't know that I would have had anywhere else to really dig deep and think about those things. And think what? How can I teach this authentically? But also, how can I also be sensitive to people who are not in the same place that I have. It's given me such a unique opportunity to learn to be sensitive to everybody because I recognize that when I go in there to teach Relief Society, everyone is there to have an edifying experience. They are not there, you know, everything challenged. I think a little bit of that is good. You know, I love the phrase that Christianity is there to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. So I feel good afflicting the comfortable a little bit. But, you know, I've gotten it wrong over the last few years doing that. But I've learned so much. I've learned so much about trying to include everybody in that experience. So I just think that the lay ministry is really, really powerful. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:21] Really good points in there.

John Dehlin [00:44:23] Love it. Okay, so we've talked a bit about some of the things that you guys love most about the church. I guess one trailing question I have. And Jana, we'll ask you first, and then we'll do Carolyn, then Janarise. Jenna Spangler, when things were really tough, in addition to what you've said, what kept you desiring to actually remain engaged with the church when so many people in the 21st century seem to be choosing to leave? And Jana Reese, you can tell us if there's an increasing or just a flat or no trend in that regard. But Jenna Spangler, you go first so far. Other than what you've already shared, what's kept you from just leaving all together?

What Keeps Them Engaged With the Church

Guest 2 [00:45:23] So, a couple of things. I think that, first of all, I have a believing husband and children that are, you know, happy for the most part in their activity, and it's important to their, you know, living in Utah. It's important to their social structure and all kinds of things. So I'm very sensitive to that. I didn't want to make any big moves. Second of all, I do think I'll be honest, there's this lingering thing in the back of my head of your salvation is at stake. So tread carefully. You know, I mean, there is a bit of fear that is driving that as well. I'll be totally honest. And I really have felt like until I feel called out, you know, this is probably as good a place as any for me. And, you know, I've learned so much through the difficulty and the heartache that I feel like it's still valuable to me. It's still valuable to me. But what I've had to learn to do is not look to the church and going in church attendance as being the thing that is going to spiritually fulfill me. I Can't go there looking to, what am I going to get out of this? I've had to shift to what do I have to give? What do I have to give to this community? What. Who can I help by being here? And, you know, what do I have to add? And I have had the privilege of good leadership as well. That has been understanding of where I am. They've been open. You know, I don't know if I would have been able to do this with some of the stories that I hear out there of leadership and how people are treated. I have truly had the privilege of people who don't fully understand me, but really care, and that's everything. So I haven't had some big move to feel like now's the time, get out. Not yet.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:29] Excellent. Carolyn, were you ever tempted to just kind of give up? And if so, what's kept you going?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:47:41] Well, there was one time that I went inactive for nine months, and that was directly after Proposition 8 was passed. And I spoke to my Stake President and I said, you know, I can't find my way to chapel anymore. I can't. When so many people that I am so sincerely and publicly committed to are disinvited from the table. I can't sit down at the table. And he did not try to dissuade me. We had the entire Stake President and I presidency, and I had spent a long time going back and forth about what was going on leading up to Prop 8, and they relied on me a lot. And we had a wonderful and continued to have a wonderful relationship. So at the end of that conversation, I said to him, if you decide that you want to do something important to bless the lives of the gay people and their families in our state, I will come back and I will help you do it. And that's an interesting idea. So anyway, we continued to email those three absolutely fabulously splendid men and me, and I gave them many ideas of what they might do to start some healing in our state. And nine months later, one of them contacted me and said, we are ready to act on some of the good ideas you've been giving us and will you meet with us? Which I did. And they had already decided they were going to go into all of their awards and give a presentation on better understanding and loving our gay brothers and sisters. And so I became. And they asked me to. To be involved in helping them make that happen. Right. And so I did, and I jumped back in. I went back to church the next Sunday. I was welcomed with open arms. My Ward still loved me. I was asked to teach a Relief Society lesson a couple of weeks after that. So that was my one experience in totally dropping out. Now, the larger picture on all of that is that I feel very deeply that I have been planted in Mormondom for some very good reasons. And I believe that one should grow where one is planted if it is a good place to grow. And I know a lot of people who have left because this was not a good place to grow. For me, I see tremendous opportunity that this church, in the teachings and in the community, have given to me. And so I really feel called to stay. And another thing that's very important to me is that I, from that strange time when my book of poems, Beginnings, kind of put me on the map in Mormon, I began to hear from women all over the church. And they said to me, sister Pearson, you have a voice and I don't have a voice, please. And so they would give me their stories and want me to know their stories and do what I could about their stories. And so I realized that I had become very important to a lot of especially Mormon women. And gradually, as I wrote more and as I was continued to be accepted in the church, I developed a platform that was, to me, very valuable, where my voice was listened to, and I honored that. And I tried to respect the respect that had been given me through that. So. And, John, you might remember you. You and I were both on why I Stay the panel about four years ago, and I remember that you were right in the middle of some very evident anguish. And the main thing that I said then that I still believe is that my theology has truly come down to God is love. And wherever you see love there you see God as we sing in the love song, where her love is then gone also. And the truth is that even with all of the challenges and all of the stumblings that I personally have seen and continue to see, I do see an enormous amount of love in the Mormon Church. And consequently, to me, that means there's an enormous amount of God happening there, and wherein I see places that to my observation, and it can only be to my observation, because I can't see through anybody else's eyes. But wherein I see places, and I do see places, and I write about those places where love is not, then I have an opportunity to try to bring some better love there and consequently, perhaps bring more God and godliness to the organization. So that's kind of my rather complicated, but in a way, simple experience of the church. It has given me a lot. And I believe I have a platform where I can give a lot as well.

John Dehlin [00:53:20] Beautiful.

Guest [00:53:21] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:53:22] Hi, Generece. What would you. Was ever a time where you were just, like, wondering whether you could hang on and what. What kept you going?

Guest [00:53:31] I took a break for about a year when I was in my early 30s, and it was a very helpful time. So it was a sabbatical. I think I might have coined the idea of the Mormon sabbatical. I don't know. I wrote about it not long after I had done it and talked about what a renewing time it was. The reason that I did the sabbatical was not so much because of doctrinal issues or questions that I was having about my faith, but really. And I think this is kind of often involved with Mormons feeling burned out. I was in a rural ward in Kentucky where I was in the Relief Society presidency. The needs of the ward seemed overwhelming to me. We were kind of located on the outskirts of Appalachia, and we had a lot of poverty. We had just issues. We also had like the hatfields and the McCoys. In terms of Family Feud, that was really wildly entertaining. And after a while, I think for me, I just felt exhausted. And the feeling of being completely so depleted and tired also, as a relatively new mother at that time, that was definitely a factor. Just being physically tired, it spilled over so that she. Church was no longer a place where I felt safe or happy. Certainly. I just felt, when I left, entirely burned out and sad. And I thought, this is not good. Academics take leaves of absence or sabbatical years, and there is a strong biblical precedent for the need of a sabbatical. And I'm going to just do that and then see where I land at the end of it. And at the end of that year, I came back, and it was the end of August of 2001. So I had been back in the church just for a couple of weeks when September 11 happened. And one of the things that changed in my approach was, you know, I. The next day had been feeling this incredibly deep sadness and grief over what had happened over September 11, and sense of dread about going to church the following Sunday. Like, what in the world? What batshit crazy thing is somebody gonna say, that's going to be so hurtful and awful? And instead of stewing about that and just worrying about that, I called the bishop and I said, you know, I can't come to church if we're going to have a sermon on tithing. I can't come to church if we're Going to just try to pretend that this didn't happen or have business as usual or emphasize something that just seems so trivial right now. And he said, this is kind of what Janice Mengler was talking about, basically. Great. So you talk. There's that, you know, volunteer ministry ethic at work in Mormonism. And so I did. I gave one of the talks that Sunday and felt more empowered by the experience of just simply voicing my concerns and frustrations. And I think that a lot of times that's what's needed. I've been lucky in the same way that Janice Mangler and Carolyn Pearson have talked about feeling kind of lucky in the bishop roulette issue, which is very real. And in some of the interviews that I've done for the next Mormons book and some of the conversations that I've had personally, I've certainly heard stories in which people have not been so fortunate in their choices or in their local leadership, Stake presidents and bishops. I have either had local leaders who really understood me or who at least tried to love me. I've never had a local leader that I felt in any way was out to get me or felt threatened in that kind of way that sometimes men are threatened by women. I have not had that experience. I'm sure that it happens, but it hasn't been my experience. And I don't know how I would respond if I were in that situation, because Mormonism does not allow women a tremendous amount of institutional authority in which to complain when situations are potentially wrong or abusive. But I haven't had that myself.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:55] So interesting as I'm reflecting on what each of you said, there's. There's a commonality, I feel like, in it, and that's one of empowerment kind of in a way where you take something that's given you kind of work with it, and you set it out again as your own. I feel like Janice Bangler, you said that a bit when you were talking about reworking lessons, trying to go deeper, trying to identify something core that you really connected to, and then going back out and realizing, okay, I can offer that. And I also want to offer this space to be safe and giving to people who go there, you know, with no, you know, not wanting to be disrupted or to be, you know. And Carolyn, I hear you saying that, too, with your unique platform serving as, like, this vehicle of women's stories, and that you take it back sort of to your ward. And I love that you would say, actually express a need, like, if you could do this in the ward, if you could somehow provide something that would meet the LGBTQ community in our ward. I would love to be part of that. That would be enough for me to feel like I love that you know yourselves on some level there to have this exchange. I think that's so key. And again with you, Janarice, and how you sort of navigated exhaustion and really feeling fatigue. I know that's real. I mean, my family lived in West Virginia. Some of those branches, you literally have three or four people doing awards worth or branches worth of work. It's very, very tough. And being able to know yourself and say, you know what? I need a break. To love this thing, to have this thing that I love, to have it not be wounded or taken or sort of morphed into something that, you know, I value it enough to take a step away. So I love that about each of your stories. And I wonder how really necessary, on a level it is for people to have that self knowledge and also to have that sort of relationship of I can take these things and I can also empower myself wherever I am to reframe in a way with what I have to offer. So, anyway, beautiful.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:00:23] Yes. I appreciate what you just said, Margaret, and I feel that's true. And wouldn't it be great if more people felt I have the right to speak the things that are really important to me? I know that people have been squashed for doing that, but to speak powerfully and kindly at the same time, I think is exactly what is needed.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:54] Yeah. Brilliant.

John Dehlin [01:01:01] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights. I draw myself apart Searching my soul.

Community, Loneliness, and Speaking Up in a Ward

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 768

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom

Margi Dehlin [00:00:43] Lead

Jana Riess [00:00:43] thou me on the night is dark

Margi Dehlin [00:00:48] and I am I was really curious for each of you about your experience socially in your various wards or communities,

John Dehlin [00:00:59] what your social and Carolyn talked a bit about this.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:01] Yeah, she. Yep. She talked about feeling, I think very supported in her own ward. But I'm kind of curious so you can expand expound if you want to. Carolyn. I know you kind of already addressed that, but it's this idea of do you feel alone? Do you feel different? Do you feel. Or when you go, do you feel this sense of kinship with the people around you when you attend church in your church communities? And we'll start with you, Carolyn.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:01:34] Yes, I do. And it maybe would be in a couple of categories. There are, there are quite a few women in my ward who've approached me. Sister Pearson, can I talk to you about something? I've been reading such and such and I really want to talk to you about this issue that's really, really important to me. So I know that there are maybe a dozen women in my ward who have some significant questions. And so I know I'm never alone when something might come up. And of course I'm highly appropriate in whatever I might say in a church setting. But then also I feel a bond to the women, well, and to the men who are there as more traditional as non questioning people who are just there. And I love to see the young men holding their babies in our ward and many that I really have reason to believe are 100% Orthodox and not questioning because I just love to see the goodness in action and I see it a lot just in the ordinary people in my ward. So I guess on those two levels I feel very comfortable sitting in my ward. Yeah. And in Relief Society I'm the one who always stands up when I want to make a comment and the whole room turns around because I'm the only one that stands up. And I encourage people to speak louder, but I always push the conversation a little bit forward. And I would never say Anything to embarrass the teacher. In fact, my bishop has thank me for not bringing my major issues to church. I say important things, such as in a new cited lesson about the nature of God, I'm the one who stands up and says, I want to remind all of the women here that we are limited by our language and when we speak about our divine source, please know that we come from a source that is as absolutely as much female as male. And I'm the one that they kind of look to, to say things like that. I always try to say them in a way that's not going to embarrass anybody upset. So that's, that's sort of my, my style and my appreciation for, for the various kinds of people that I do feel comfortable with.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:30] Yep, that's great. How about you, Janice Bangler?

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:04:38] Yeah, for me this is something that changes all the time. I think when my shelf first broke, I felt very alone. I mean, you just imagine you are the only one going through this. And you know, I had not found the podcast universe. I did not know that anyone else was out there that that was going through this and still attending. Like I just thought anyone who felt like this was out. So I felt it was very, very lonely. And after the first year I actually did out myself. It was not pre planned, but during a testimony meeting I got up and outed myself. And I was shocked at how many people came to me afterward telling me they were in the same place. Thank you for saying it. Because they no longer felt alone. But the people that I know are also still quite quiet. I'm the only one who seems to talk about it. So in that way it still feels lonely because I feel like so many people just assume I'm the only one. It does feel a little, I don't know, it's difficult for me at times, for sure, and I do feel loneliness. But what I've also noticed is, and it's not just the people who are going through this, but the relationships with people who have been open and are willing to talk about this. I feel like those relationships go way deeper than I ever would have had with them before. And I've really just had some rich friendships and rich relationships come out of saying it. So, you know, I didn't plan it, I did not anticipate what it would do. And it really has kind of felt like many people have maybe taken a step back for me and many others have taken a step forward. And so it's been a mixed bag. And you know, yesterday I Was having a really hard moment and talking to my sister about how alone I felt. So I still have those moments. It's just. It's a really mixed bag.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:41] Yep. Makes sense. Yeah. How about you, Janarice? What's your kind of social experience? How do you feel in your ward, in your community?

Jana Riess [00:06:52] Well, this is the longest that I've ever lived in any ward. I've been here for about 11 years, and I feel really lucky to be here. I live in Cincinnati. We are in a pretty urban ward that also has some suburbs in the middle, so it's kind of a mix. And we have also our share of issues. You know, it's. There's a lot of work to be done where I live, and I think that that helps, actually. I think it helps that I don't live in Utah and that we are in need of every hand on deck where I live. And my contributions have always been valued, or at least I felt that they've been valued. I would say I have a rule as a writer that I don't write about things that happen in my ward unless the people did something amazing, in which case, you know, I could maybe feel free to write about how amazing they are, but if someone has said something that I disagree with, I don't put that out there in public. I don't talk about it on a blog or a podcast. And nobody deserves to have a writer in their ward or in their family. You don't deserve to have a writer for a parent or really, it just is terrible to know a writer at all. And so I'm keenly aware that I need to have boundaries in protecting other people and keeping their experiences so that church is a safe place for them as well as being a safe place for me. As far as speaking up in church, I do that quite a bit. And I don't really hold back. I try to. I like what Carolyn said about speaking with both love and power, kindness and power. I can't remember how she put it, but I hope that I do that Paul talked about. The apostle Paul talked about speaking the truth in love. And I feel like in the church, we have people who are very intense and can speak the truth but have not love. And that I feel like we have people who are just nice up the wazoo, but aren't speaking necessarily how they really feel. And I gravitate toward people like Janice Spangler has kind of been honest and vulnerable about being that person, saying, this is where I'm at right now, and then finding that people might gravitate toward her after church and speak quietly and say thank you for saying that, because I was thinking it but didn't say it. You know what? I'm happy to be the person who says it. I'm happy to be that person because I don't have anything to lose in the church. I'm the only member of the church in my family. There's no social pressure on me from parents or a spouse or my own children to be orthodox in a particular way. So perhaps that's something that I can do for other people, is to voice what they're not able to.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:39] I love the mindfulness that you all show and quite honestly, the respect and care you give to those around you. It's very clear that, you know, the way you're navigating your own journeys and sort of like we were talking about personalizing or empowering that you. You do so with actually those around you very much in your mind, it's very, very admirable. You know, it's bringing up a lot for me in the way of how our culture could be in the face of differences, honestly, because I think we're very. We can be very impatient and judgmental around when we. When we are faced with people who are different. We can be very dismiss. And I love this idea of actually engaging with those who may be different and treating them with love and kindness and having sort of this openness and regard for someone without reading into intention too much. Yeah.

Jana Riess [00:10:45] Well, if I could just briefly follow up and say, I think you're being overly generous to me, and if you asked people in my ward, is Jenna really like that, they might have something else to say because maybe I'm a little too outspoken and.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:59] Well, it sounds like it's that mix, right? It's that mix of authenticity and trying actually to be truthful and show the larger truth, but also with a spirit and with a nature of, you know, not being antagonistic, not having an air or an energy or a Persona about you that makes people sort of feel fear or know you're in the room and it's coming.

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:11:26] Right, Exactly.

Jana Riess [00:11:28] I don't want to be that person.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:32] Love it. Okay, let's play a little game called, called Play. You know, Play the Therapist. So, Jenna. Jenna and Carolyn, I'm gonna read at least two comments made by listeners, and I just want whoever wants to. To unmute themselves and provide some type of support to our listeners. It can be encouragement. It can be suggestions, because I love. We love the interactive nature of Facebook Live and how people are able to post comments or questions real time while we're talking. So Clark writes, I can sympathize with the loneliness and. And feeling isolated at church during lessons. Staying silent and listening to things that have been proven false or incorrect is spiritually rough and feels morally wrong. The hallways seem like the best place to retreat to which one of you wants to unmute and give a response to Clark. And it could be multiple people. Just take turns.

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:12:45] I'll take a shot at it. I can so sympathize with this. It's so hard to feel like you have the choice of just sitting there and taking it or opening your mouth and offending half the room. That is a really hard thing to do. And sometimes it does feel like you need to retreat. I had the opportunity last year to be at a gathering with Richard Bushman. I asked the question, how, as a teacher, how do I teach authentically and, you know, still honor people? It was. That was really on my mind at the time, and I loved his answer. He said, well, first of all, it's kind of like talking to your kids about sex. If you're nervous, they're nervous. And I thought that was great advice, is to just bring an air of confidence to whatever you do. And then the second thing he said is, become a scholar. Don't quote Richard Bushman, quote Emma Smith. You know, go to the source. And so I do think you have to tread lightly. You know, I don't think it's the place to just pick a fight and start telling everyone it's false. It's false. I know better. Because if we're all honest, it's way more complex and sticky than anyone knows about what's true and false. So it's not the place to pick a fight in my experience. But could you bring up something? I always think the safest thing is to say in my experience and talk about your own experience, because who can argue? You know, I'm not getting in a tit for tat over whether something happened historically or not, but it's just, you know, this is my feeling and my experience with something, so I always feel like that is good territory. Speak up on. And with the other stuff, just, you know, hey, I just read this quote from Emma Smith. I mean, you're. You're in pretty good territory. If you've got a documented quote that you may want to share. Just tread lightly. Don't do it in a spirit of trying to pick a fight. Maybe just say, hey, I'm wondering what people feel about this. I read this thing what do you think? I mean, that spirit of just really hearing what other people feel and doing it in. In the best way possible is I've found in my experience, and like I said, I've done it wrong a million times. I feel like it goes best when I do it that way.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:14] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] Carolyn, what would you add in thoughts for Clark? Anything you'd add?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:15:21] I think I would just say that I feel quite comfortable keeping my mouth shut a lot. And as I said before, I would never say anything to embarrass the teacher, even if there was something said that I felt really was wrong. And I just used my intuition to feel here's where I can really contribute something or here's where it wouldn't make much difference anyway. There's no reason to rock the ball to you. People in general know what I'm about to know. When I think about most things and when I feel that it's appropriate, I'm very clearly able to articulate. And plenty of times I just keep my mouth shut.

John Dehlin [00:16:09] Beautiful. Generise, anything you want to add?

Jana Riess [00:16:13] Well, I guess I would say to Clark that sometimes the hallway is where we need to be, and sometimes there are other people in the hallway that might need to talk to you, too. And you can have gossip doctrine class together. That's what we call it. And sometimes those are the best conversations. And I guess I would just add that. We don't have to say everything that comes into our head all the time. And I'm reminding myself of this as I say it out loud. I tend to be outspoken, perhaps to a fault, and say everything. And I'm learning that that's not necessarily always the most helpful and constructive thing for other people. You know, the church is supposed to be the body of Christ. And we have this beautiful passage in First Corinthians about every part of the body being needed, every part being valuable, and no part being able to look at another and say, you are not valuable. And I think in our actions, ideally, we need to treat everybody that we come into contact with in that same spirit. That teacher may have said something that I disagree with, but that teacher also took time to prepare that lesson and is a dedicated person, loves the Gospel just as much as I do, possibly more. And people need to be treated as people first. And their ideas are important, but they're not the most important thing about them.

John Dehlin [00:17:41] Yeah, Love it. Marg, do you want to read Sherry's comment and then ask the therapist what they think?

Margi Dehlin [00:17:50] It's very lonely when you realize you don't believe the dominant narrative anymore and disagree with things like the LGBT treatment. I could only speak kindly and openly and nuanced for four to five years before I couldn't go anymore because I was afraid to offend or hurt others. I miss the community, but this is where I am at. What would you say to Sherry? Let's go with. How about we go with Carolyn first?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:18:17] I so understand that. I really do. And I might possibly be correct in saying that if I did not have a voice, that I might not be able to continue. I'll always participate if I felt that I really was not valued in what I had to say. I think there are a lot of ways to spend your energy. I have so many friends who have essentially said, you know, why would I want to spend my energy here where it seems not to be valued when I can go out and do other kinds of things, where I really feel that my thoughts are being valued? I so totally understand that. And I'm not saying that people have to have as strong a platform as I have by fortune, by fate, by fluke, by whatever, have been able to, by brilliance, all that, too, and all the cuteness. But. But if I didn't have a platform and I have developed it carefully, I paid my dues in going very, very carefully and slowly and authentically. But what am I saying here? I feel more comfortable than I otherwise would because I know that my voice has been heard by many and they continue to be heard by many.

John Dehlin [00:20:01] Thank you, Carolyn.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:02] Yeah. How about any Jana Reese or Janice Bengler? Would you like to respond at all to Sherry? Sure.

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:20:12] I mean, I totally honor where Sherry is. And, you know, as I work with people, because I do specialize in my life coaching business and people in faith transition. And I mean, what I would say to anybody is one of the most. The biggest gifts and one of the most important things as we're going through faith transition is to just honor our inner voice, honor what is happening with us. And, you know, I just. I think that is the most important thing. And when something becomes unhealthy for you to be engaging in, honor that. And whether it's a sabbatical or a permanent thing, do what your gut is telling you to do, to be healthy. Absolutely. So I honor wherever anyone wants to be. I would also say that sometimes we have a fantasy of if I make the right choice about staying or going, then my life will be roses. And I would just like to say that I think that anyone who finds themselves in this place should probably recognize that whatever choice you make There is emotional fallout. There are things that are going to be difficult, whether you decide to stay and engage or step away and, you know, reach out to a therapist or a coach or anyone to help you work through those things. Because I just feel like everyone can use emotional tools to help deal with the fallout of whatever your decision is. And it's a beautiful. It can be as painful as it is. It can be a beautiful opportunity to get to know yourself better, to learn more about authenticity, learn more about yourself and honoring yourself. So, yep, that's my two cents.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:02] Lovely. How about you, Janarice?

Jana Riess [00:22:05] I don't have too much more to add to that, except to say that Sherry's going to know for herself more than anyone will know for her what is the best path for her right now. And that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be the best path forever. Like Janice Bangler said, just a time away. It may be a permanent break. And it's hard to know that. And she probably shouldn't put the pressure on herself right now to try to figure out that level of exactly, you know, defining the relationship, the dtr.

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:22:38] Right.

Jana Riess [00:22:41] It takes a long time. In the research that I've been doing and the survey data we have, John had asked, you know, are more people leaving the church? And yes, it's pretty clear more people are leaving the church, particularly those born after 1971. And that is not at all unusual with what's going on with American religion more generally. So when we think about it being a question of Mormon faith transitions, Mormon faith crises, that's a part of what's going on. But the larger story in American religion right now is one of disaffiliation. And Mormonism is just one little piece of that. The reason that I'm bringing this up for her case is just to say that it is easier in many ways than it ever has been before because there's a community out there. If you do decide to leave the church for a time or forever, there is a support community. And people who leave tend to need that most acutely in the immediate aftermath. But some may need it for a long time. And it's, I think, a good thing that that community exists.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:48] Yeah. Great.

John Dehlin [00:23:51] Love it.

Humility and Navigating Disagreement in Church

Margi Dehlin [00:23:52] Should we go with one more question before we head towards.

John Dehlin [00:23:55] Do you like that question?

Margi Dehlin [00:23:57] So we have a question that came in. What is, Carolyn, what is your daily practice to help you stay humble? Anything you would recommend. There is a strong sense of humility with all three women. How do you all stay so humble? Is it humility that makes it so you can hold your tongue in church.

John Dehlin [00:24:17] Let's do generise first.

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:24:18] Perfect.

Jana Riess [00:24:20] Is it humility that makes it so you can hold your tongue in church? I don't know. Humble is not necessarily the word that I would use to describe myself. First and foremost, I don't think that I'm a terrifically prideful person. But I don't think that humility comes naturally or easily to me in the way with other people for whom that just seems to be a beautiful gift. That's not necessarily my beautiful gift. The core of the question about how humility affects our interactions. I once heard Martin Marty speaking and he just very historian of American religion, I should say kind of the grandfather right now of American religious history. And he said that everyone has a PhD in something. And that struck me so much. Everyone has a PhD in something. It might be how to judge figure skating, it might be plumbing, it might be how to build a suitcase, but everyone has a PhD in something. And when you approach any kind of interaction, whether it's at the church or in your job or in writing a book, with the assumption that you are the expert and that someone else needs to know what you know, the conversation is doomed as a conversation that's not going to be a conversation. If you're truly interested in having conversations with people, you honor that expertise in them and that beauty in them and try to seek it out to try to find out what their particular gift is. Maybe that's humility. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] Yeah, love that.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:03] Great.

John Dehlin [00:26:05] Love that.

Jana Riess [00:26:05] John, do you just say love, love it and love that after everything? It's very affirming.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] Yes, I do. That's all I do.

Jana Riess [00:26:11] I feel like I should say something

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:26:12] completely when he feels it.

Jana Riess [00:26:14] Just to see him say that.

John Dehlin [00:26:18] No, this is genuine. I think we cherry picked our panel today. Thanks to Jerry Redshaw. All right, Carolyn, would you mind talking about bragging about your humility and telling us the sources from whence it comes?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:26:36] Humility. Humility absolutely is a quality that ought to be really revered. And I think we can look around our country today and wish that we could see a little more humility in certain high places. But as far as we're talking about in the church and certainly humility, absolutely always. But I wonder if sometimes our Mormon community perhaps regards humility as something that doesn't necessarily should be blended with power. I didn't say that quite well. But we have this culture of niceness. We have this culture of, oh, I'm only such and such. I'M only so and so. Da da da. I really believe that if more of us kind of kept our humility in one hand and in the other hand developed some power and some belief that we have not only the right, but we have the obligation to. Of participating in a powerful way and speaking out and raising our hands and standing up and writing and objecting or affirming or doing whatever we feel to. To blend our innate humility with some power that maybe is foreign to Mormon in some proportions. Because we're so reverent of the power that we see in front of us at general conference time, reverent of however we view power that is theirs and not ours. And I think a lot of boy, you know, I'm still thinking about it. We had a sacrament meeting that was given by the young women and then a few months later meeting with other young men. And here are all these wonderful people. And the young women themselves were powerful, strong human beings. I really had a good feeling about them. But the young man had a theme that I have been called to speak in the name of God and women will never quite be given that. So I'm just throwing out here various ways in which I think our idea of humility and of power might be better married together in both men and women.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:32] I love that she said it. Love that. Because I do.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:29:40] I think so.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:41] I really do. I do. I don't love the how we think of humility as sort of being docile or being. That's not humility to me. Humility does best with some other layers to it. It's actually a lot deeper than this. Sort of. I'm gonna be quiet. I'm gonna just sort of take it in. It has wisdom to it. It has strength and power. I absolutely love it.

John Dehlin [00:30:08] Jenna Spangler, anything you wanted to add to Carolyn's and generic insight?

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:30:15] Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know that humility would be my go to adjective for myself either. Although of course I would aspire. It's a lovely thing. I would just say that. For me, I think it comes more from just trained to be loving and respectful than humble. I listened to an interview with Richard Rohr right at the beginning of my shelf crashing, and he was just talking about people who start to see ego being wrapped up in religion and how off putting that can be and how if we leave in that, we run a great risk of becoming the mirror image of what we hate and what we're doing, we're reviling against. And I. It really resonated with me and One of the phrases he used is he said, just look at everything through a lens of love. And I just. I can't tell you how important that has been to my journey. When someone does something that feels offensive or they don't get me or I want to, you know, I just have to take a step back and say, you know what? That person was doing it out of love. And so I just try to do that. I fail a lot, but I really try to just put everything through a lens of love and not make assumptions about what people are doing or saying or whatever. So I would say that, and then I also would just say quickly that I think understanding Faith Stages, the work of Fowler, Ken Wilber, you know, Thomas McConkey's book of navigating Mormon faith Crisis, that understanding. Because I'm not always really, really good at just doing the love thing. I try, but I also have to do the understanding thing in my head. I really. It's kind of a go to for me. And so understanding Face Stages has given. Has helped me access compassion. It has helped me access that lens of love when I have a greater understanding of what's happening to me and others.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:11] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:32:12] Love it. The listener who asked that last question writes, that is exactly what I needed to hear today. Referring to all three of you, you have answered my prayers today with your thoughtful responses. So nice job, panelists. Being an answer to someone's prayer, I'm not surprised. Okay, let's do another lightning round. We're gonna change our approach a tiny bit, and I'm just gonna ask you guys to give some brief answers again, sort of in a lightning round, just to kind of explore a little bit

Lightning Round: Orthodox and Unorthodox Beliefs

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:32:45] more

John Dehlin [00:32:47] your orthodoxy and your unorthodoxy. So I'll begin, and we'll start with Jenna Reese. In what ways are you orthodox? So we're referring particularly to beliefs here. Just list five or however many orthodox beliefs that you retain in your Mormon engagement. You talked about this a bit, but go ahead and just throw out some of the most important ways you consider yourself to be orthodox, please.

Jana Riess [00:33:16] I have a very solid testimony, and I have all my life of God. And even when I grew up in a family where I had a father who was an atheist and a mother who was an agnostic, I believed in God. I cannot explain why. I believe in Christ's resurrection. For me, that has been one of the most beautiful, enduring Christian doctrines and is filled with what I find to be an enlightening paradox in Mormonism. As I said, I have loved the Book of Mormon for me, my conversion was very tied to my experiences with the Book of Mormon and my feelings about it. Historicity aside, I find it to be a tremendously wise and helpful book. I guess we'll get to the unorthodoxy questions in a minute, but probably those would be the questions, elements of my testimony, and we can.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:34:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] All right, Beautiful. Carolyn, tell us about your orthodoxy.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:34:15] We're just speaking of beliefs at this moment.

John Dehlin [00:34:18] Yep. We'll do Praxi next, but now it's doxy.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:34:22] Okay. I am totally on board with the insistence that every human on the face of this earth is of divine origin. And I also love it that every sentient being is part of the divine plan, so that we are inundated with divinity wherever we look, and that really, when we look into the eyes of another human being, we are seeing the face of God. You know, I would wish that some of these things might be given a little stronger emphasis, but it's there enough that I know that the LDS teachings are to see the divine everywhere. And I have. While I have read a great deal from the luminance areas of other traditions, I personally am very comfortable in saying Christ is the person that I am choosing to be my file leader. And, you know, there are various things around all of those stories that I'm not quite sure what to do with. But that he is our brother and leader and has done something remarkable that we could not have done for ourselves in opening a door of some kind, I'm comfortable with that. And so that part of it all, I'm very much. And just the concept that everything begins and ends with love. And I do find that as a consistent thread in Mormon. So that is what I would say.

John Dehlin [00:36:26] Beautiful. Janice Bingler.

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:36:30] Yeah, I would definitely say that my Praxi is much more ortho than my doxy. I think that there's not a whole lot that I hang my hat on with orthodoxy these days, other than I do believe in the power of love and, you know, service and all of that, to change people's lives. I do feel like there is something out there, whether it's the spirit, intuition, whatever it is, that can help guide me to good things. And beyond that, I've just kind of given up on really trying to figure it out. I'm not a yes, I'm not a no. I'm getting much more comfortable with. I just don't know. And it's actually becoming less and less important to me, other than just to honor those things that really lift me up.

John Dehlin [00:37:24] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:25] Okay. Let's do the other half of that. Let's go to unorthodox, and we'll start with Janarice. In what ways would you say you're unorthodox?

Jana Riess [00:37:35] I have authority issues with the way that the church is often trying to perpetuate its own authority. You know, to some extent, that is a healthy thing. I believe that we have prophets and apostles for a reason. However, I do not believe in the 14 fundamentals of following the prophet according to Ezra Taft Benson. I do not believe that they are to be followed against your own conscience. In fact, I think that is a very dangerous heresy that we could do much better work at stamping out in the church people who believe that if they follow counsel that they feel to be misguided or have they have not received any kind of personal testimony of that, they'll be blessed anyway by going against their own conscience. You know, there's nothing scriptural about that. We don't have scriptural examples of God honoring our decisions to choose someone else's moral path, or we don't have scriptures that would say that we're not accountable for our own choices. And so that's an element where I am in pretty fundamental disagreement with some of the recent rhetoric from the church over the last 40 or 50 years.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:38:49] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:50] Thanks, Jana. How about you, Carolyn?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:38:55] Well, I have a sense that whatever we call God is much, much larger than the Heavenly Father that I hear referred to in church all the time. And I really believe that, of course, the divine is as much female as male, and that God is working in every corner of this world in trying to make. Trying to invite humanity to become more and more Godly. And consequently, I look around and. And I truly feel that what I said at the beginning is that I appreciate Mormon for trying very hard to create Zion. I think that we are one wonderful corner of God's vast, vast Zion. So maybe that's something that would separate me from many.

John Dehlin [00:40:16] Mm.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:40:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:18] That was a very diplomatic way of saying what I think you just said, and I thought it was beautiful. Janice Bengler.

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:40:29] Yeah, I would love to echo what both of these ladies have said because they have said it much more diplomatically and eloquently than I think I could. And I agree with them both wholeheartedly. I guess the only other thing that I would say that sets me apart is that I just don't find the beauty in certainty that I once did. I recognize the benefits of it to help people feel safe. And, you know, I think there are wonderful, beautiful things in it. But I also feel like it can be limiting, and that uncertainty opens up a whole new world that I think makes us very, very uncomfortable in our Mormon culture, but that I'm pretty unorthodox in not valuing certainty.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:22] Yeah.

Orthoprax Practice and Approaching Sundays

John Dehlin [00:41:23] All right, this is great. Now let's jump to orthopraxy. So, generise, in what ways are you living Mormonism as an orthodox member might.

Jana Riess [00:41:39] Well, I come from a family where we've had some issues with drug addiction and alcohol addiction stretching back generations. And so for me, the word of Wisdom has never been something that I have questioned in any serious way. I mean, I, of course, wonder what the heck is going on about coffee and tea. I think many of us think that that's possibly a little different. And our survey research indicates that many younger Mormons feel that way as well. But at its core, I mean, that's a sacrifice that I'm happy to make for my people, even if I don't understand it. It's certainly not harming anyone. And I have felt some health benefits as promised from the word of Wisdom and following the Word of Wisdom. So, yeah, that's one element in which I might even be a little bit more intense about it. I found out in the survey that the vast majority, actually, of Mormons do drink caffeinated soda. Now, we know. And I don't. And I was very surprised to see that, you know, so that was interesting. Other elements in which I am possibly more orthopractic. The Sabbath would be one of them. And that's because I'm a selfish and lazy person. I love the Sabbath because I am a workaholic. And, you know, John, you were talking about this struggle at the beginning that for many of us, we are constantly on our devices. Sunday for me, has been a chance for where. Most Sundays, especially if I'm not traveling, I don't turn on my computer. I will sometimes check Facebook very briefly on my phone or something like that, but it's a pretty unprogrammed day in a way that I just don't have during the rest of the week. I'd love to say that I use that time wisely and I'm deep into the scriptures or something, but really, for me, it's more about resting and spending time in nature, being with family and friends. I find that very rejuvenating.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:41] I love that. I actually have a question on that later, because I was so curious about that, but I love hearing about that.

John Dehlin [00:43:47] We're running out of time, so we have to. We have to get there. So you bring that question up next. Okay, Carolyn, how are you? Orthoprax?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:43:57] I really behave in just about every way that you would like for a nice Mormon woman to behave. I do try to drink green tea because it's on the list of everything that I read that's good for the body. And while I am an activist for gay rights, I'm really quite comfortable with very conventional sexual behavior. I am not one to be for myself or anybody else to say, oh, the Mormon mores of sexuality should just be thrown away. Let's see, what else. My behavior is pretty boring in terms of, you know, if you want to try to catch me doing something that's clearly non Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:44:55] All right. I know whenever they're swearing on Mormon stories, you've been kind enough to remind me that that's not always appreciated.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:45:02] I got after John one time. I did.

John Dehlin [00:45:07] We appreciated it. Janice Mangler, ORTHOPRAXY

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:45:13] yeah, I'm pretty ortho in my praxi. You know, I will definitely take a Sunday off if I'm feeling depleted and I don't feel guilt over it. So maybe that's not quite so orthoprax. But I, you know, I try to be a good citizen if I'm going to be part of this, and if I feel like I'm going to have any influence whatsoever, I think it's important to be a good citizen. So I'm willing to make whatever sacrifices those are. And that being said, I think if I left tomorrow, there would be a few things that would change, but not much. So it's just partially who I am and partially respect.

John Dehlin [00:45:52] Excellent. Okay. And we'll do this really briefly. It's kind of sensitive for people to admit ways that they're unorthoprax. So, Jana, whatever you're comfortable sharing there, and you don't have to share if you're not comfortable. For some reason, Mormons are really uncomfortable with an orthopraxy.

Jana Riess [00:46:12] Well, I didn't even realize this until Carolyn mentioned swearing, but guess I'll have to put that in there. I have a big swearing problem. Although as a child, I was never taught that this was a problem because I didn't grow up Mormon and that was just part of the air that we breathed. So it comes out when I'm feeling particularly passionate about something, whether it's frustration, certainly, or even excitement. You know, my first inclination is to swear. And so that's just who I am. Other things that I am probably not as jazzed about. I never feel guilty about skipping church if I need to skip church. And I will sometimes go to church when I'm on vacation or I'm traveling for work, which is often. But I'll usually go to another church because for me, that's very helpful and rejuvenating. That's part of what enables me to stay Mormon, is that I am always in dialogue with other religious traditions and kind of doing the Brigham Young thing of anything is truthful. I will claim that for Mormonism, I do that.

John Dehlin [00:47:18] Love it. Carolyn.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:47:23] I might not be as consistent faster as one should be.

John Dehlin [00:47:28] All right.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:47:29] I do try to. I know that it's a good thing for the body and spirit, but I'm not as familiar consistent as most really orthodox Mormons beyond that. And I probably don't keep the Sabbath in the same way as many do in that what I consider my work is of a spiritual nature. And so I sometimes wonder why can't I do this on the Sabbath? Because this is a very spiritual thing for me. But I can't think of anything that would be kind of shocking that I would choose to confess just now.

John Dehlin [00:48:15] Are you comfortable just sharing your approach to temple attendance? Is that something you want to talk about? Rule just really briefly,

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:48:23] I personally have not requested a temple recommendation in for many, many years. That is just not one of the places where I am enthusiastic about finding God there, finding my mother God there. That's all I want to say on that.

John Dehlin [00:48:44] Thank you for that vulnerability and candor. Janice Bangler

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:48:51] so, like Jana Reese, I do like to church hop. I, you know, or go to Oasis or just other gatherings. I do that from time to time. I think for me, I pray in a very unorthodox way. I don't. I just never found the connection that I wanted through the Mormon formula for prayer. And so I would say that my, the minute that I let myself out of those bounds and started praying in my own way and incorporating meditation and incorporating other things, that that spiritual connection really opened up to me. So that's, that's pretty different. And I would also say that, you know, some would find this more shocking than others. I think I'm still within the realm of what's fairly acceptable, but I have changed the way that we've done tithing. And so I pay on a different standard than I used to, and it's lower than it used to be, but it's still 10% in a way that I feel good about. But the difference, I give to charities of my choice outside of the church. And it's something I've been able to negotiate with my husband, who is very orthodox, that we both feel good about that. We can still feel like we're giving a 10% tithe and do it in a way, in a hybrid way that is, I have to say, the first year we did it, it was so meaningful to me to be able to just more in a really tangible way live the teachings of King Benjamin or Christ and really just giving to people who are in need.

John Dehlin [00:50:40] Love it. Okay, we're running short on time. We promised Shannon we'd end right at 6:30, Utah time. So for a few more questions, we're just gonna ask one of you. We won't ask all three of you to answer. So really briefly, Margi, who do you want to direct your question to?

Margi Dehlin [00:50:56] Why you do that?

John Dehlin [00:50:57] I know it's hard.

Jana Riess [00:50:58] We could just do really short.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:00] If this is really. I'm super curious.

John Dehlin [00:51:03] This may be Jim. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:04] Okay, so just real brief then, ladies. But I'm really curious how you approach Sundays and what like a really lovely Sunday for you would feel like. What would it include? What wouldn't it include? And let's start with Jana Reese on that.

Jana Riess [00:51:23] Okay. My ideal Sunday, we would have 90 minute church on my ideal Sunday, that would be pretty great. I think that's plenty of time. And the rest of the day, because I'm an extrovert, would probably involve having people over. And I like to have potlucks. We have a lot of potlucks here at our house. Sometimes we invite people from my husband's church, he's Episcopalian. Sometimes we invite people from our church. Sometimes we mix it up and have everybody come together and have a big more Bapalian meal. And music, you know, there has to be music. In my fantasy Sunday, that's something that I, you know, Janice Spangler was talking about the ways in which we connect with God. And for me that's very vital, very important and unfortunately not something that we do at the word level very well.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:15] Would it be hymns like that, that type of music or some of it would be hymns.

Jana Riess [00:52:21] There are many hymns that I love. We also have some pretty crazy out there hymns that I'm not really a fan of in the hymnal. But you know, in the Episcopal Church they have this wonderful tradition called pub theology where people just show up at a bar and then bring hymnals and other things and bring their guitars and there's a piano, like a beer hall piano, and just belt it out. And by that time like they get so drunk that they don't remember that we sang a Mighty Fortresses our God three times already, so we do it the fourth time, you know, And I'm like, the only person who's not drinking, but I love those. I think that's amazing. It's a wonderful, wonderful tradition. Just that robust, fantastic singing.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:59] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:53:00] Love it. Janet, really quickly, since we're bumping up against the time you said you needed to leave, do you kind of need to run and we should say goodbye to you now, or do you have a few more minutes?

Jana Riess [00:53:11] I have a few more minutes because I'm a very bad parent. I was supposed to be leaving early so that I could do something with my daughter, and she went to get an X ray today of a wrist that I said was fine and that she was complaining about nothing, and it turns out that it was fractured. So right before I sat down to do this interview with you guys, I got the text that it was fractured, and I feel like. Like, pretty much the worst mom ever for not taking it seriously and kind of belittling it so. Well, maybe not belittling it, but I didn't take it seriously. And so really, what you're staving off is my going downstairs and apologizing to my daughter.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:48] So. Yes.

Jana Riess [00:53:49] Let's talk a couple more minutes, okay?

John Dehlin [00:53:51] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:51] We have compassion for that. Jana, can I just say hard calls?

Jana Riess [00:53:56] I thought it was nothing. Yeah, I mean, it's just like a hairline fracture, but still, I thought that if it were broken, it would really be dramatic.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:04] Right, Right. Or be really swollen. We've been there.

John Dehlin [00:54:07] Okay. We'll just do a few more, but thank you. Hope your daughter's okay.

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:54:11] Wait, do we still get to do

Margi Dehlin [00:54:12] the Sunday with Carolyn?

John Dehlin [00:54:13] Yeah. Carolyn. Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:14] So we'll go to Carolyn next.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:54:16] Was this the Sunday as it exists now, how I do it the best that I can, or if I can invent a whole new Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:54:25] What do you want to do? What do you want to do?

Margi Dehlin [00:54:30] I was trying to actually ask it in the way of the existing structure, because then I think it's very useful for people to see what you do to add value or for yourself.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:54:44] And I actually enjoy wearing a skirt to Sunday to church. I have occasionally worn pants in harmony with, you know, that request. But Sunday is the only day that I wear my prettier clothing. So I enjoy. Because I am not a social butterfly, I don't go out, really. And places where you dress up. So I enjoy dressing up and paying more attention to my face than to my hair. And I enjoy going into the Chapel and hugging people. I try to get there early so I can go around and be an unofficial greeter and spot people that I think need a hug. I enjoy doing that. And sometimes, well, probably generally I skip Sunday school to hold Sunday school in the Florida with somebody that I know wants to talk to me. Or I go two doors down and visit with Sister Gold who is a 95 year old, 90 year old, you know, and urge her to write her history. I think that's a good thing to do during Sunday school. And then in Relief Society I enjoy being with the women and boy, we have some, some wonderful women. So in the rest of the day I love to read the Sunday paper just luxuriously and I love to make phone calls to people that I have been ignoring during the week. And sometimes in church I start making a list of people I have not been paying attention to. I do some good phone calls during the. And I read and I catch up in my diary and I love to watch 60 Minutes but if they're only going to have three brutal episodes, I can't watch them. And I have loved watching Madam Secretary. There's something on TV that I think feeds me. I'm not unwilling to. To say this is a good part of my.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:04] Yeah,

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:57:08] I probably do more stuff than I. That I ought to on Sunday rather than just rest and let my mind. I enjoy this.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:19] Yeah, perfect. Thank you for sharing. How about you, Janice Bangler?

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:57:26] So for me it was much easier when I was reimagining my own, but I'll go with this. A good Sunday for me is one where I am able to be in a space that's of my larger self when I show up to church and I'm able to just love people and not. Not be looking for ways that I'm different than them, but ways that I'm the same and common values and things. Also, when I make a habit of asking my kids when they come home what they liked at church, what they didn't like, I like to give them the opportunity to disagree with things and to validate that and that's okay. And have their own feelings about things, most of the time I just get the one word answer, it's fine, whatever. But once in a while it has opened up some really good conversation and I really cherish that. So in my ideal I would have more opportunities to have those real conversations with my kids. My oldest is 13, so she's really the only one that it's terribly realistic to have those good conversations. But they've happened and I Love that.

Jana Riess [00:58:36] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:37] Anything after church that you would want to include or that would really make your Sunday feel good to you?

Jana Johnson Spangler [00:58:43] Yeah, I mean, I just think it's quality time with my family and with my kids and having a real connection with them beyond just we've checked off the box of what we've done and we've gone to church, you know, but I don't know, as they get older, I'm sure this will have more opportunity for this. But just to have a real connection with them or with something bigger than us on a Sunday is an amazing experience.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:11] Excellent. Okay, we'll do a few more lightning round questions. The first is we'll start with you, Generice. If you were to recommend some of your favorite thinkers or voices or mentors for remaining actively engaged in religion or in Mormonism, what are some voices or authors that you would recommend?

Recommended Voices and Resources

Jana Riess [00:59:36] Okay. So within Mormonism, I would suggest Adam Miller, very strong thinker, that's a good person to read. And there are so many outside of Mormonism. I would echo what Janice Bangler said about Richard Rohr. There's a lot of wisdom there. To that, I would add people like Barbara Brown Taylor. I would love it if we had a whole Mormon groundswell of reading Barbara Brown Taylor because she's amazing and incredibly wise. Particularly I would suggest starting with leaving church, which was primarily about her decision to leave the Episcopal priesthood. And an altar in the world is a one. Oh, learning to walk in the dark would be a good one for many of your listeners. You know, dealing with uncertainty, dealing with when the moorings have kind of disappeared is a good one. And other people that I enjoy reading. Brennan Manning, the Ragamuffin Gospel is outstanding. Madeleine l'.

Jana Johnson Spangler [01:00:40] Engle.

Jana Riess [01:00:40] I still go back. She's still my favorite writer. Still go back and read her often. And I'm going to come back to this question again and again and think, oh, why didn't I mention so and so? Rachel Held Evans, There are just so many good writers right now.

John Dehlin [01:00:55] If you want to send us a link to some of these names or just the names themselves, maybe an email or text, we'll include them in the show notes, if that's okay.

Jana Riess [01:01:04] Yeah, I'd be happy to do that.

John Dehlin [01:01:05] Just a few of them. I wasn't able to type fast enough for some of those. Carolyn Pearson, who are the voices in or outside of Mormonism?

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:01:14] You know, I am so behind in being able to give you a good list. The name for somebody who needs a good Mormon voice, besides those that have been mentioned. I would remind them that we still have books by Chain Okasafi, who was addressing a lot of wonderful things years ago, that we need to be reminded that certain things have been held up for us that we have not yet achieved. I read books of other traditions like Eckhart Tolle, and I love listening to Eckhart in my ears when I'm out walking. I love things like Deepak Chopra and so many of the Dalai Lama and various other. Various leaders of other traditions. I like to try to keep close to them. So that's about all I'm doing.

John Dehlin [01:02:29] Excellent. Okay. Janice Bengler.

Jana Johnson Spangler [01:02:35] So in addition to the ones that have already been mentioned, I would just add, you know, it doesn't seem like it might be so applicable to faith journeys, but Brene Brown has been huge for me. I definitely did my Mormonism from a perfectionist standpoint, and her books have really helped me. Gifts of Imperfection and others have just really helped me connect to my authenticity and connect to the gifts that come from imperfection. Loved Sin of Certainty by Peter Enns. That's been huge in my journey. And definitely Richard Rohr has been a gigantic influence on me. So much so that I've enrolled in his living school, which starts in a month. So I'm going to be studying with Richard Rohr for the next two years.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:17] Wow. So exciting.

Jana Johnson Spangler [01:03:19] Yeah, so that's. And I mentioned what an important he was from the beginning of my journey. So. There's so many others. There's so many others, it's hard to come up with them. But just a nod to the podcast universe. It was a lifesaver for me when I. When I found all of you, you know, from all the open stories ones to Bill Real was my first actually podcast I ever stumbled across where I went, whoa, there are other people like me. So I just. It's been invaluable to me to have all the podcasts available.

John Dehlin [01:03:56] Shout out to Dan Witherspoon, Gina Colvin, Natasha, Alfred Parker as well. Stories Podcasters. Great.

Jana Johnson Spangler [01:04:04] And you, John.

John Dehlin [01:04:05] Oh, thank you. And Margi.

Jana Johnson Spangler [01:04:07] And Margi. And Margi.

The Health and Future of the LDS Church

John Dehlin [01:04:10] Okay, another lightning round question. Jana Reese. This is a hard one. This may be the hardest question I ask all day. Some like to observe or predict that the LDS Church is maybe experiencing a lot of turmoil or even decline in terms of its health or vitality. Do you see that or do you not see that? What do you see in terms of the church's health and vitality?

Jana Riess [01:04:39] You know, I see a very mixed picture from the data and also just observation. It is Extremely healthy in many ways compared to what else is going on in religion in America and Europe, and particularly in the ways that we involve young people in serving missions. There's a lot of seminary program. You know, there's a lot of vitality there that can't be downplayed. And I think Mormons tend to take that for granted, actually. Those are. Or singles wards, you know, that those are programs that we don't necessarily think about. But when you are looking at what's happening in religion more generally, those are unusually strong. I would say, yes, there is a decline in vitality. There is certainly a sense of frustration on the part of many with the leadership of the church and the membership of. Of the church being at odds on some issues. And, you know, I don't think it's. I think it's hard to overstate this. You know, in the data, we saw that the third most important reason for millennials to leave the church was LGBT issues. And LGBT issues did not feature even in the top 10among reasons for people in the boomer and silent generations to leave the church. And that's important. Women's issues are also a factor. Doctrinal issues, not so much. At least not in what we discovered. It was much more experiential and about social things that are happening today. We have never had a leadership that has been this divorced from the membership in terms of age. You know, I think Mormons today tend to forget that we used to have intergenerational leadership and that many apostles started when they were quite young, because we haven't seen that in our lifetimes. And. And we're now seeing some of the fruits of that. So it's a complicated answer to what I know you intended to be a very quick question, but we're seeing a mixed situation.

John Dehlin [01:06:44] Thank you, Jana. Carolyn, what are you seeing in your neck of the woods?

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:06:51] I am seeing a fair amount of my friends and people that I know who are just saying, you know, I'm. I'm not participating in the church anymore. I do see that. But I also see a lot of people who are there for plenty of reasons, you know, besides the issues, or even knowing history and all of that. They're there because this is the place where they want to. Where they feel good and want to raise their family there. I do see a lot of that. So, you know, being a Libra, I can really say on the one hand, you know, I see this, and on the other, I do see that. And truly, it seems to me that there is a kind of dance going on, that is, you know, But I would consider steps forward and then steps backward. And I think, in a large sense of ecclesiastical leadership, there is a retrenchment that I feel is being pretty evident. As opposed to down here where people live. There is a lot of kind of new thought happening. And as has been suggested here, most young people are not agonizing over whether or not we should have gay people in the church. It's just something that is given. So I see a lot of tension going on between what I would consider progressive and then more. So that's not a very good answer. I just sort of see a dance going on that I'm just kind of watching and participating. Participating in whatever way I feel.

John Dehlin [01:08:45] Thank you. Janice Bangler. You're the only of the three of our panelists who are in the Wasatch Front. What are you seeing along the Wasatch Front?

Jana Johnson Spangler [01:08:56] So I think it's complicated because of who I hang out with. You know, I hang out with a community of a lot of people who are in this middle way, questioning or out. And, you know, if. If I'm just taking a pulse from that, I'm gonna say that it's rocky. But I also know that the people who are not in that community that I hang out with really don't see much of an issue. Even though almost everyone, if you ask a room full of Mormons along the Wasatch Front if they have experienced a faith crisis or if they're currently experiencing one or if someone that they're very close to is experiencing one, almost every hand goes up. But I think that most people don't really want to acknowledge that. And I think this is a different conversation after the November policy, to be honest. I think that there was a hit with that one that I think we're still seeing the fallout of it, because people that I know who have been very in and still are, were really shaken by that. And it's created a shelf item for a lot of people I know who just want to stay in. And it moved a lot of people who were on the edge out. And I think that was kind of a pivotal moment. But I don't know. I don't know. It's hard to say. Depends on who I'm with, what I think, because, yeah, discourse, communities, you can't underestimate their power.

John Dehlin [01:10:21] Beautiful, right?

Final Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Margi Dehlin [01:10:24] Okay, final question.

John Dehlin [01:10:25] Final question.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:27] Here it is. So what keeps you going in this effort? What gives you hope? So let's start with Carolyn.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:10:39] The thing that nourishes me, the Most about remaining where I am is to know that I have a tremendously good give and take with a lot of people. And I hear from a lot of people for whom my work and my presence in the church has been extremely helpful to them. And so that gives me a lot of energy to know that I do have a place and that my voice is being heard. And maybe that's the number one thing for me. And I do look around and see all of the good stuff happening that I have seen before, but I also see a lot of stuff happening that really breaks my heart. But the fact that I personally have a place and feel that I can move things toward what I consider to be a more loving Zion, that's what gives me energy.

John Dehlin [01:11:39] Love it.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:40] Yep. Thank you. How about you, Janarice?

Jana Riess [01:11:49] And one of the things that keeps me going is the young people in the church. I do understand when, like, Sherry had. Had sent that message about needing to take a break. I do understand that sometimes people cannot stay and it's not a healthy place for them to stay. But I also, as a member of the church, grieve all of those losses because the church is a lesser place for their absence, and my experience of it is lesser for their absence. So I'm hopeful that many of these incredible young people, young adults that I get to talk to will be able to stay and to enrich our experience. And someday they will be in charge, which will be good.

Jana Johnson Spangler [01:12:37] Great.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:37] How about you, Janice Bangler?

Jana Johnson Spangler [01:12:41] Yeah. This is a hard one. Depends on the day, but yeah, I mean, I think that when I feel like I really am being helpful to someone somewhere that is going through this, that I can maybe broaden the tent a little bit, that I can stick up for someone who's on the margins when I can try to include people. You know, when I. When I see that, it. It gives me a boost, like, oh, you know, there is a reason for me doing this, and it may sound kind of bleak, but to be honest, the difficulty of it, I am starting to find growth, opportunity for myself in that. And, you know, I don't want to just run away from what is hard. I don't also want to stay with what is damaging. It is a dance, and it is hard to know which is which. I would never say that someone that left just wasn't willing to fight the good fight. I mean, I just. I don't believe that at all. But I just think it gives me the chance to really get to know myself and to explore where that line is for me. And I have to check in with myself all the time to see if where I am on that line. Is this serving me? Is the difficulty I'm going through a net positive or is it not? So. Yeah, I hear that.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:07] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:14:09] Jana, give us one resource or website or book for people who want to reach out to you or something you want your listeners to know about. Give us one. Give us one resource to let our listeners know. Wait, Jenna Spangler first. Sorry, sorry. Jenna Reese. Jenna Spangler.

Jana Johnson Spangler [01:14:28] Okay, so a way to reach out to me personally would be on symmetrysols sols.com that is the online practice that Natasha Helfer Parker runs. And I am a, I am a life coach with them and I'm also active on the ATF website. If anyone is on there, feel free to reach out to me.

John Dehlin [01:14:49] Thoughtful Faith. Shout out to our friends at a Thoughtful Faith.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:51] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:14:53] Jenner Reese, if you want to let people know about any of your good works. What should people know about good works?

Jana Riess [01:15:00] That's a different question. Initially, you asked about getting in touch.

John Dehlin [01:15:04] No, no, no. I meant, you know, your blog, your, your survey, whatever you want to talk about.

Jana Riess [01:15:09] Okay, I see. I'm sorry. So for getting in touch and for some of the work that I've been

Margi Dehlin [01:15:14] doing,

Jana Riess [01:15:16] I write for Religion News Service. I'm a senior columnist, and the column is called Flunking Sainthood. Because I'm also writing two books right now. I haven't been as regular with writing on the blog as I should be. And another thing, I'm starting a podcast like everyone else in the whole Mormon studies community. And actually the podcast is focusing specifically on spirituality, so specifically on some of the, the things that we've talked about today, hoping to interview even some of the authors that we've talked about today and help to maybe translate some of their work for a Mormon audience who may not know about it, as well as profiling people within the Mormon community who are doing interesting things in the realm of spirituality.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:58] So exciting, Jana.

Jana Riess [01:16:00] Thank you. Well, I mean, it's truly, it's like every day I found out about someone else starting a podcast. So it's not like it's, it's new, but I hope it will be helpful to some people who want to go deeper within their Mormon identity, but by doing that, by exposing themselves to some of the wisdom and beauty of other thinkers.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:18] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:16:19] Is it just your own podcast or is someone sponsoring you?

Jana Riess [01:16:22] It's sponsored by the Faith Matters Foundation. They're also doing a podcast with Terrell Gibbons and I think with Thomas McConkey. Actually, that Janet Spangler was talking about.

John Dehlin [01:16:31] All right. We'll look for it. Good luck. Carolyn Pearson, what can our listeners or viewers know about the good work you're doing or have done?

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:16:46] The last good work that I did was the book that we mentioned, the Ghost of Eternal Polygony. And so I'm just writing the ways of the things that that has brought me, which I've been very good. And I'm spending a lot of time in this long process of preparing for my death, which is not imminent. But I'm trying to clean up all of the, you know, the things that we kind of ignore. I'm really trying to be conscious about how will things look when I am on my deathbed, how will I feel about the things and the people that I am believing and I'm paying attention.

John Dehlin [01:17:31] Love it.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:32] Other books by Carolyn Pearson include no More Goodbyes and Goodbye, Love youe and lots of other ones. So many good books with poetry and essays. How many books now?

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:17:44] CAROLYN PEARSON oh, if you count Plays and My Funny little notebooks, over 40.

John Dehlin [01:17:55] And your website is Carolyn Pearson dot com. All right, go buy everything she's got. It's worth it.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:18:03] Oh, please do.

John Dehlin [01:18:06] Jana did you want to say something? JENNA spengler I did.

Jana Johnson Spangler [01:18:09] This is not something I've created, but I just think this is a great resource for your listeners along the Wasatch brand. I just want to mention two things that have been really, really helpful to me, one of which is Thomas McConkey's organization that he has started, Lower Lights. You can connect with them@l lowerlightsslc.org and it has been a wonderful place for me. Thomas does mindfulness gatherings and has all kinds of other classes and things that are available. And it's a growing community. It's been really, really helpful. And the second one would be Faith Again. And you can connect to them@faithagain.org and that's a group that meets monthly. And in fact, they've got Adam Miller coming tonight. So they have people who come through and have really wonderful discussions and that could be really helpful to people who, you know, I would say the Faith again is kind of it runs the gamut. A lot of people are middle way Mormons there, but there are a lot of people who have left and still find value in that. And Lower Lights is for anybody, anyone who wants to have a community that is striving to connect to more. It's a great place, great resources.

John Dehlin [01:19:26] All right. Well, we want to thank Jana Reese, Carolyn Pearson and Jana Spangler for coming on the podcast. You've been wonderful, all three of you. So thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:38] Thank you for sharing your unique perspectives.

Jana Riess [01:19:42] Thank you for having us.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:43] Loved it.

Jana Johnson Spangler [01:19:44] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [01:19:46] Thanks, guys, gals. In addition, I want to thank our listeners, our Facebook Live participants, everyone who's joined us today, always. We want to thank Cody Layton and Amy Grubbs of the OSF staff for making all this possible. And most importantly, our donors. We could not do this with the Open Storage foundation without your support. We rely on your support to keep going. So if you enjoy this work but you don't contribute, please consider a monthly donation. 10, 20, $30 a month, whatever you can afford. It's what keeps us all alive. So please contribute when you can. I love you, sweetie.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:28] Love you, too.

John Dehlin [01:20:29] Thanks for joining us today.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:31] Yeah, absolutely. Thank you all. Thank you for being with us.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] Thank you, everybody. Check, check you guys out. Next time on Mormon Stories. Please stay tuned. Take care, everybody.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:20:45] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:20:51] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights. When with the wounded heart Any good. I draw myself apart Searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.