Introducing Hayden and Jackson Paul

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is September 4th. Is it 4th? 2nd. September 4th, 2024. And we have a show for you today. We are doing this live stream, so we are welcoming our live audience. And we have with us today Dos Hermanos, two brothers. We have Hayden and Jackson Paul. Hey, fellas.

Hayden Paul [00:00:28] What's up?

Jackson Paul [00:00:28] We doing.

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Thanks for joining us.

Hayden Paul [00:00:30] Well, we're glad to be here and talk to you.

John Dehlin [00:00:33] If y' all don't know who these two chaps are, they run a YouTube channel called the Stick of Joseph. They are both currently active service Marines. Is that right or reserve?

Hayden Paul [00:00:44] We're. We're in the reserves right now. In the infantry Reserves. In the Marine Corps.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] And there's a unit here in Utah.

Jackson Paul [00:00:51] Yeah.

Hayden Paul [00:00:52] Yep. So Camp Williams, where's that? It's over in Bluffdale.

Jackson Paul [00:00:56] Saratoga Springs. Saratoga Springs area. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] Okay.

Hayden Paul [00:00:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Hua. Is that what I'm supposed to say? What am I supposed to say?

Jackson Paul [00:01:04] Any audible noise will do. Yeah.

Hayden Paul [00:01:07] Usually grunts is. Is what we do.

John Dehlin [00:01:09] Awesome. Yeah. So these guys are brothers and they run a YouTube channel celebrating the Book of Mormon and exploring the Book of Mormon and helping people get excited about the Book of Mormon. And I would also say addressing critics of Mormonism. Is that fair?

Hayden Paul [00:01:30] Yeah.

Jackson Paul [00:01:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:31] You want to add or amend any.

Hayden Paul [00:01:33] That's pretty good. That's. That's the main purpose of the channel is to get people pumped. I. I feel like a lot of people, especially Latter Day Saints, don't really understand what we have when it comes to the Book of Mormon. And so the whole purpose of it is to dive into it and. And find its depths and hopefully inspire curiosity and. And hunger to get into the scriptures.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] So beautiful. And I'll just tell my audience I've had a long standing tradition on Mormon stories to bring on people across the belief spectrum and believers specifically. So, you know, if you think back to the times I had Richard Bushman on or Terrell Givens, Dan Witherspoon, we used to go at it quite a bit. And recently I've had Jim Bennett on and others. This kind of follows in that spirit because we value lots of perspectives. And, you know, the question we're going to be asking today is not only how can informed millennials or Gen Zs in the Mormon Church maintain belief in spite of the CES letter, or maybe because of the CES letter and other, you know, podcasts and YouTube channels, but also what would make them want to become apologists for the church and. And that sort of thing. So we're going to do their Mormon story. We're going to explore their worldviews, religiously, spiritually, doctrinally, etc. Maybe politically, a little bit. And then we're going to just have a friendly exchange where we talk about stuff that's meaningful. And we're going to ask Maven to star any questions or comments that maybe we'll integrate. And if this weren't enough, we have our resident awesome co host, Gerardo Simano. Hey, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:20] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:03:21] Thanks for joining us. Yeah, no problem. You ready for this? I'm ready. It's weird because you're to my right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:27] I know I'm usually in front of you.

John Dehlin [00:03:30] So we're. We're kind of like, where do we look? I don't even. Where do we look?

Hayden Paul [00:03:33] What do you do with Margi?

John Dehlin [00:03:35] I guess I do this.

Jackson Paul [00:03:37] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:37] I guess we'll be doing this a lot.

John Dehlin [00:03:39] Okay. Anyway. All right. So usually on Mormon stories, we begin with people's intentions.

Hayden Paul [00:03:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] On why they want to do the show. So who wants to go first?

Hayden Paul [00:03:50] Get Jack.

Jackson Paul [00:03:51] Sure. I would say I'm one of those people that believes, give or take. Two thousand years ago, a man named Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, and taught us the way to return back to heavenly Father's parent, Heavenly Father's presence. And he suffered for our sins, pains, illnesses, everything that we may overcome them, and was crucified on a cross, laid in a tomb. And three days later, he walked out of that tomb. And after watching hundreds of hours of Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] Well, you've watched hundreds of hours?

Jackson Paul [00:04:37] I would say. Hundreds of hours, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:38] Holy moly.

Jackson Paul [00:04:40] I have heard some things, in my opinion, that are very concerning, and I would. I wanted to come here when you made that call out to any believing member of the church to come tell their Mormon story.

Hayden Paul [00:04:56] And.

Jackson Paul [00:04:58] Yeah, I. I just would love to gain more understanding, and I have a lot of questions that I would love to ask.

John Dehlin [00:05:05] So you're here to ask us questions.

Hayden Paul [00:05:07] We'd like to have a conversation that

Jackson Paul [00:05:09] answer questions, usually how a dialogue goes. So that's. I guess that's my intentions.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] Okay. No, that's good.

Hayden Paul [00:05:15] Yeah. I think overall, that way, for those just listening.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] That was Jackson. I have no idea how they're gonna tell Jackson.

Jackson Paul [00:05:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:20] Between your voices.

Jackson Paul [00:05:22] Our voices are very similar. It's true.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] That was Jackson. Are you the oldest, Jackson?

Jackson Paul [00:05:28] I am.

Hayden Paul [00:05:29] He's tallest. He's my big little brother.

Jackson Paul [00:05:31] And the strongest. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] Okay. So how old strongest is Jackson?

Jackson Paul [00:05:35] 20. 5.

John Dehlin [00:05:35] And how tall is Jackson?

Jackson Paul [00:05:37] 6, 4.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] So still short.

Jackson Paul [00:05:40] Still short compared to you. If anyone, if anyone's watching this and haven't met John de Lynn in person, he's like six, eight big dude.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] Six, six, actually.

Jackson Paul [00:05:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:51] Okay, so that's Jackson. The younger but the taller, he's more handsome. I guess that's fair enough.

Hayden Paul [00:05:55] I think probably Jackson, he can win the hands.

Jackson Paul [00:05:58] I appreciate that.

Hayden Paul [00:05:59] Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [00:05:59] All right. Okay. And why. Why are you here, Hayden?

Hayden Paul [00:06:02] Yeah, I think overall it's very similar to Jackson is like, I've made covenants to stand as a witness of Christ, and I take those covenants very seriously. And similar to Jackson, I, I, I. As I've watched the effect that your channel and your work has had, it's caused what I have seen a lot of people to ditch the solid foundation, the rock of Christ, and to build their lives on the sand of secularism, postmodernism, and kind of, you know, lack of, of, of, of faith. And so we want to come here. We want to share that. We feel like we are coming from a position of strength, that believing in Jesus Christ and following him is a position that you can feel comfortable in. And also that the doctrines and understanding and worldview proposed by Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, it is the most solid articulation of Christendom that exists. And. And that's what we found as we've dug in and gone through, you know, our due diligence to work our salvation out with fear and trembling.

John Dehlin [00:07:15] So y' all are kind of here to bear witness a little bit.

Hayden Paul [00:07:18] Yeah, we like to bear with, everywhere

Jackson Paul [00:07:19] we go, a conversation. I mean, you bear witness in every conversation that you have of your own beliefs. And so.

Hayden Paul [00:07:25] Yeah, same thing.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] No, but I mean, it's one thing to want to tell your story.

Hayden Paul [00:07:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:29] It's not a thing to want to help influence others to, in your case, believe.

Hayden Paul [00:07:35] Yeah, yeah, for sure. No, and we feel. We feel very strong that that is, that is the, the path for us. So.

Family Background and Mormon Upbringing

John Dehlin [00:07:43] All right, so where does your Mormon story begin? Were your parents lds? And tell us just about. Like, were they missions, temple, marriage, converts?

Jackson Paul [00:07:52] Yeah. Who do you want? I think it's easier if you.

Hayden Paul [00:07:56] You guys had one of us go for Joe first. The older bro starts earlier, like three years earlier.

John Dehlin [00:08:01] So y' all jump in. I'll just switch the cameras.

Jackson Paul [00:08:04] According to.

John Dehlin [00:08:04] Okay. So, Hayden, tell us about your parents.

Hayden Paul [00:08:07] The first two years, nine months of my life were awesome. And then March 22, this guy came along, and it became Way better. But so, yeah, our parents. My dad grew up in. He was born into a family. They were not Latter Day Saints. He had a difficult childhood, very difficult childhood, especially early on. And I won't share too much because I didn't ask him how much I could share, but had some really hard things happen to him. When he was around 12 years old, missionaries came to his home, taught them. They ended up joining the church, working. Weren't super active or anything. This is. He lived all around. But I think they met the missionaries here in Utah.

Jackson Paul [00:08:51] Yeah. And so his stepdad was an inactive member. And so the missionaries taught his mom and him, and then his two sisters were older and were older and they didn't. They didn't want to join.

Hayden Paul [00:09:03] Yeah.

Jackson Paul [00:09:03] Or we get taught.

Hayden Paul [00:09:05] Yeah. So he. So, yeah, he joined and then my mom grew up in it. In just like latter Day, same family. Like, our grandpa and grandma are amazing. Our grandpa just passed away this last year in September, so it's actually been a year now. Oh, no, it was August. Yeah. Just barely passed. And he has had a huge influence on us. He, you know, was an ordinance worker in the Salt Lake temple for like 25 years or something like that. He wasn't a. He didn't speak a lot. He wasn't a lot of. He wasn't a very eloquent man. But he lived his life as a testament of Jesus Christ. And he's. He's epic. We love him. And our grandmother. So my mom grew up in a great, strong family. And then here in Utah as well.

Jackson Paul [00:09:54] Yeah, just over here in the holiday, actually.

Hayden Paul [00:09:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:56] Oh, sweet.

Hayden Paul [00:09:57] So my grandparents go to Olympus. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:09:59] Your mom went to Olympus?

Hayden Paul [00:10:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:01] Cool.

Hayden Paul [00:10:01] So she. She was born. Oh, no, she probably 68. 68. Is that the same dude?

John Dehlin [00:10:07] So she's a year older than me and she's a tight. Is it Titan?

Hayden Paul [00:10:10] So you guys went to high school together?

John Dehlin [00:10:12] No.

Hayden Paul [00:10:13] Okay, cool. Okay. All right.

John Dehlin [00:10:16] My kids went to Olympus.

Jackson Paul [00:10:17] That'd be crazy.

Hayden Paul [00:10:18] Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So my grandparents were actually the first people to. They were the first graduating class at Olympus. My grandparents were. And then.

John Dehlin [00:10:25] Oh, fun.

Hayden Paul [00:10:26] Yeah. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:27] So this is your hometown?

Jackson Paul [00:10:29] Yeah, a little bit. Yeah.

Hayden Paul [00:10:30] Yeah, It's a good place. So. So, yeah. Then my parents met, and my dad, he didn't want to join. He was kind of not really going to church or anything. And he knew my mom wanted to get married in the temple, so he actually broke up with her because. And I think. I think we get a lot of how we are from our dad. He didn't want to make a decision on whether or not he wanted to believe in the church, get married in the temple. He didn't want to do that just for my mom. He. He knew it had to come from within. So he broke up with my mom. Didn't tell her his intentions on, like, he had to go and figure out. And so she was heartbroken. And then he went and for months, he met with his bishop every single week, just asking questions. He was just trying to learn the gospel and whether or not this is what he wanted to do, he eventually made the decision that, you know, you know, this. He. He does believe in the truth claims of the church. He wanted to be married in the temple. Goes back to my mom. Luckily, she took him back and they got married. And about two years later is when I was born. So our family growing up, we, like, we have a really fun family. We're kind of unconventional in some ways. Like, we're a little irreverent and so, but, like, in a good. In a good way, I think.

Jackson Paul [00:11:49] Yeah. But that's essentially our parents. Yeah.

Hayden Paul [00:11:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] Where'd y' all grow up?

Jackson Paul [00:11:53] Just Cottonwood Heights, Utah.

Hayden Paul [00:11:56] So we went to Bryant High School. I'll be in middle school.

John Dehlin [00:12:00] Nice.

Hayden Paul [00:12:00] That whole area.

John Dehlin [00:12:01] Okay.

Hayden Paul [00:12:02] Yeah. So that's kind of our parents.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] You said Brighton?

Hayden Paul [00:12:05] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] Okay, so any other siblings or just you two?

Jackson Paul [00:12:09] Yeah. So besides Hayden and I, we have two younger sisters. One just returned actually, last week from serving a mission in Dallas, Texas, and then a younger sister who's a sophomore in high school. So us four.

John Dehlin [00:12:25] Nice. Okay. Okay, great. So to what extent was your family just traditional family, home, evening, scripture study, prayer versus something different?

Hayden Paul [00:12:37] Yeah.

Jackson Paul [00:12:38] So good question. HAYDEN LAUGHS Because, I mean, we did our best. We did our best, and they did their best, too. There was an occasional Sunday in which, you know, Tony Stewart was driving around a race car track and, you know, we watched that and we going to church instead of going to church.

Hayden Paul [00:12:55] That wasn't often.

Jackson Paul [00:12:56] That was like, very often.

Hayden Paul [00:12:57] Few and far between.

Jackson Paul [00:12:58] A monk marathon here, here, there took precedent, but overall, what, as I look back in retrospect, I'm like, what did our parents do to, I guess, instill in us. Understanding and importance of following Jesus Christ? And the conclusion that I've kind of come to is they. They just lived it. They were. They were incredible examples of Christlike service. And just the way that they led in our home and the way that our. Our dad presided over our family, it was. It was really positive way to. To grow up.

Hayden Paul [00:13:38] Yeah. And even Though we weren't like necessarily like the ideal, like family home, evening, scripture study, every that. Because like our dad in many ways is like a chain breaker. Like he broke the chain of abuse, which. Who knows how far back that went. And I'm a huge believer that the atonement of Christ, when. When you are, you are doing that, it covers for any. Any shortcomings. And so like, our dad has been nothing but good to us. And I think that because he took that step of faith early on before he got married to my. To my mom. And then he just, he lived his life just trying to be the best dad possible. And our mom is amazing as well and has a strong testimony, I think that we, we just had that instilled in us. Despite, you know, not every. And anyone who has kids understands that it never works out perfectly. You know what I mean? It's. It's messy and we weren't the easiest, especially as teenage boys.

Jackson Paul [00:14:36] Definitely.

Hayden Paul [00:14:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] Was your mom a stay at home mom?

Hayden Paul [00:14:40] Yes.

Jackson Paul [00:14:41] Yes.

Hayden Paul [00:14:41] Not for the whole. For most of the time.

Jackson Paul [00:14:43] Yeah, I. I think for most my life.

Hayden Paul [00:14:46] Yeah. Yeah. She. She got, she tried to get a job. Like she got a job later on because she was like, all the kids are at school, so she was like, I'm gonna go try to be a do something. But she just didn't really. It wasn't for her. So she would stay at home for like our whole lives.

John Dehlin [00:15:01] And are y' all comfortable saying what your dad did for work and you don't have to?

Hayden Paul [00:15:04] Yeah, he did video production.

John Dehlin [00:15:06] Oh, so that's where you guys maybe learned some of it?

Hayden Paul [00:15:08] Yeah, that's where I definitely got the. Got the bug. So we used to do like little movies when we were kids.

Jackson Paul [00:15:15] Yeah. Dude, if anyone finds our old YouTube channel, they are in for a treat. Honestly, we're not telling anybody. How dare you try to paint me like that.

Hayden Paul [00:15:24] Our dad used to make cool movies, like cowboy movies and Spider man movies.

Jackson Paul [00:15:29] Yeah.

Hayden Paul [00:15:29] There's one time we made a Spider man movie. I was Spider Man. Jackson was supposed to be the bad guy and like tie up my mom, but he loved my mom so much he like started crying.

Jackson Paul [00:15:36] He's like, I can't tie her up. That was a terrible.

Hayden Paul [00:15:38] I had to play both the bad guy and Spider Man.

Jackson Paul [00:15:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:41] So favorite Spider man villain?

Hayden Paul [00:15:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:45] There's one answer.

Hayden Paul [00:15:46] Doc Ock. That the answer?

John Dehlin [00:15:49] That's the answer.

Hayden Paul [00:15:49] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:15:50] Yeah, same.

Jackson Paul [00:15:54] Yeah, I really don't care for superhero movies.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] Did you just say you don't? What?

Hayden Paul [00:16:01] John kind of has Doc Vibes a little bit.

Jackson Paul [00:16:06] And the head shake, too.

Hayden Paul [00:16:07] Yeah, you got, like, the doc. No, shape. You have the shape of the head.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] How can you not like superhero movies?

Jackson Paul [00:16:17] I'll be honest. I, I, I don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:16:20] Okay. It's fine, because you are one. So why like superheroes if you are? Because they're fake.

Jackson Paul [00:16:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] All right. Okay. So I'm guessing a normal Mormon upbringing, then? I mean, because no one's got a perfect family, and everybody struggles with family meeting and family prayer, but, yeah. Anything notable about. I guess adolescence is where things often get interesting. Is there anything you want to share about your childhood or adolescence as it relates to Mormonism that is important to your journey in terms of your faith or what's made you who you are?

Jackson Paul [00:16:56] Um, I would say Hayden and I, we shared a room, like, all growing up. And then there came a time where we moved houses, actually, and finally there was enough rooms in the house where we didn't share a room. And subsequently, that was the time that Hayden became, like, the biggest jerk in the entire world. And, yeah, we, and I'll let him tell a little bit more of that, but we, we just kind of. He went into high school, I was still in middle school, and, like, we were in totally different environments. And, like, there were times that I was at my friend's house, and I would call my mom to come pick me up, and then Hayden would volunteer just so he could go pick me up. And then when I got in the car, he would just crank explicit music, and I'd be like, dude, turn this off. He's like, shut up, bro.

Hayden Paul [00:17:48] I was a jerk.

Jackson Paul [00:17:49] And, but no, in high school, I, I guess we is where we kind

Hayden Paul [00:17:53] of rekindled our friendship.

Jackson Paul [00:17:57] Yeah. At the very end of his high school experience.

Hayden Paul [00:17:59] But, yeah, so, yeah, growing up, I mean, I was just like a typical. Both of us, I think, were typical teenagers. I kind of got in with a group of friends that weren't doing things that, you know, were. Were good. And so I kind of dipped my toes into that, you know, like, do you mean alcohol? Alcohol, drinking, drug. Yeah, drugs, yeah. Sex, Rock and roll. You know what I mean? That sort of stuff. And so, yeah, but I, I quickly. Luckily, I got out because I had another group of friends that, you know, was really instrumental. Unfortunately, that group of friends, like, you know, some of them went pretty, Pretty deep down some roads that, you know, it's. Yeah, it's really sad.

John Dehlin [00:18:42] The first, the first group.

Hayden Paul [00:18:43] Yeah, the first group of friends. Yeah, some of them Some of them like, you know, grew up and grew out of it. Some of them like went into heavy drug use like all throughout college and like to where like, it's kind of like messed them up, you know what I mean? So I'm really grateful for the group of friends that I had. And you know, I guess when it comes to like my faith and stuff like that, from a young age I, I've always had like a strong intuition or a strong feeling that there's something greater than me. I grew up as a Latter Day Saint and so I conceptualize it in that way from a young age without like thinking about it. But I've always known that there's something greater, bigger. And I still believe, you know, in the Latter Day Saint conception of, of, of God and of Christ. But it wasn't until later on that I started to like really start to deconstruct it and try to understand it and make sure that there was a reason for my faith and why I believe that. But yeah, from a young age, you know, I've always, I've always had a belief that there's a power greater than me.

Jackson Paul [00:19:53] And I would say just the earliest member memory that I have of like figuring out like who God is and his role in my life was I was like 8 years old and I was obsessed with lizards and I had this bearded dragon that was named Dewey. And then Hayden had a turtle named Chewy and we had a dog named Louie. So we had the three amigos there. And there was one Friday afternoon that I got home from school eight years old, I took, took my lizard out to play and then I went to the bathroom, came back home, he dipped, he was gone. And we turned the house upside down, couldn't find it anywhere. And for the next two days, just agony as an eight year old boy. Lost my freaking lizard. And then Monday morning rolled around, I woke up just sobbing. And my mom, I remember we were sitting on the couch and she's like, well maybe have you, have you tried saying a prayer? And I was like, I was like, no, let's say a prayer. And so then I said probably the most sincere 8 year old boy prayer of Heavenly Father, please help me find the lizard in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen. And right when I said amen, I hear Hayden go, Jack.

Hayden Paul [00:21:06] Well, because when that was happening, I got to tell my son side of the story that was happening. It was the first time that I was like, oh man, I actually do love my brother. Even though like I pester him and stuff. He was so sad about that lizard,

Jackson Paul [00:21:18] and it sounds so dumb.

Hayden Paul [00:21:23] And so I was in my room watching him, like, say a prayer on the couch. And so I got on my knees on my bed and I prayed for him. And I guess we said amen about the exact same time. Cause when I got up and I. I was searching the room for, like, an hour before, like, all of us were, like, scouring everything, trying to find it. And we had a drum set in our old room. And I say amen, and we turn around, and the lizard's just, like, sitting on the. On the stool of a drum set. And I was just, like. I was, like, freaking out. I didn't know. And, like, who. Who knows the exact how it all happened and all that, but that was the first time that I was like, okay, maybe when we act in faith and we pray, something can happen. You know what I mean?

Jackson Paul [00:22:11] Yeah. So unexplained things, obviously, maybe that is a very extremely silly example for other people. But that lit a spark in me to rely on God in prayer in times of difficulty and time and time and time and time again. I've seen his merciful hand reach out to me in dozens of different ways. But that was. That's the earliest significant experience I had with prayer and specifically understanding that God was listening to me.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:44] Wow.

Jackson Paul [00:22:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:46] I'll come back to that. But that's a cool story.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:49] Thanks for sharing. Okay, so. So you kind of. Did you. Did you identify the kind of layman and Lemuel at some point and you as Nephi? Kind of like, actually kind of a bad brother, good brother?

Jackson Paul [00:23:03] I never really. Finally someone says it.

Hayden Paul [00:23:05] I guess I actually did. And I. I remember saying this to Jackson when I left on my mission. I was like, bro, I know I was always supposed to be the example to you, but Jackson really was the example to me growing up. And, you know, that's something I'm grateful for, you know, to this day, one of the things I love about him. So.

John Dehlin [00:23:23] That's nice. That's a nice vibe. I. I had some similar dynamics with my. My older brother. I was. I was kind of Nephi, and he was. But then he turned around and it made us close, so I relate to that.

Hayden Paul [00:23:36] Good.

Doubts and Faith Questions Before Missions

John Dehlin [00:23:37] Okay. So any other. Did either of you kind of question or doubt your faith or your testimony or the church's narrative? What years were. What years were you in High School? Hayden.

Hayden Paul [00:23:49] 20. I graduated 2014. So 2011.

John Dehlin [00:23:53] Smokes.

Jackson Paul [00:23:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:55] So 2010 to 2014.

Hayden Paul [00:23:58] Yeah, around there.

John Dehlin [00:23:59] So Mormon stories was. So I'M just trying to match it

Jackson Paul [00:24:01] to the timeline when it all happened. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:03] So you're like, no, no, no, you're. You're five years into Mormon stories just when you start your freshman year. So. So you were going to high school when the Internet was really on the rise. Pre Gospel topics essays, pre CES letter, but post the beginning of Mormon stories and kind of the Internet, the Mormon Internet wave is. It really started getting big. Okay.

Hayden Paul [00:24:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:25] So did you get exposed to any anti Mormon stuff in high school or before?

Hayden Paul [00:24:31] No, not really. No, I didn't. Yeah, it was just. Yeah, it's just like the bubble. And at the end of the day, it wasn't until after my mission that I like, really started to like, dig. Dig into everything. And that's where I feel like I found the, the jewel of faith that I have today.

John Dehlin [00:24:48] So did you, Hayden, have any big doubts or faith crises prior to your mission?

Hayden Paul [00:24:55] No, I didn't think seriously about anything. Like, that's a, that's. And I think that's the case for a lot of young people you meet every once in a while someone who's like, very mature and very, like, thinking about the existential questions of reality. But for me, it was just like I saw and I had had spiritual experiences where I knew something was here, but there's no way I could articulate it and I wasn't critically thinking enough to, like, want to dig much deeper until, you know. And I think this is the case for a lot of people. You go on your mission and that's the first time that you're like, really trying to, like, figure things out.

Jackson Paul [00:25:29] Well, I'll say this, and this is actually a huge testimony builder for myself is like I said, Hayden kind of, you know, went down a different path while I was growing up. And then ninth grade, we, we went to high school together. It was his senior year, and he got his patriarchal blessing and felt the need to finish seminary, graduate from seminary. And that then entailed 54 hours of makeup.

Hayden Paul [00:25:57] And so because I skipped out on seminary, like my whole junior year, I used it as a. The free period to go watch Netflix. So that's what I did instead.

Jackson Paul [00:26:06] And so once he made that decision, he was going to seminary before school, during school, after school, and had to read.

Hayden Paul [00:26:15] And it was the first. I'll tell, I'll tell this part. You tell your perspective from it. But like, yeah, this was a huge. This is actually. I don't know why I didn't think about this. This is a huge defining moment for me. So I was going to seminary four hours a day, and it was Book of Mormon year, and it was the first time that you couldn't do, like, the seminary makeup, where you could just fill out a sheet and be like, oh, I did an hour of makeup. No, you were in the building reading the scriptures. So I was reading the scriptures every day for four hours for the last, like, two or month and a half, two months of my high school career. And I hated it at first. It was just so boring to me. And I just remember, as time went on, like, I would just find, like, a little nugget. Like, that's actually a really cool idea. And during that same time, my buddy gave me a book called Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis. And so I started reading that. And, like, I was the type of guy, like, in high school, I did holes for every book report because I

Jackson Paul [00:27:11] could watch the movie. You know what I mean? Like, and I just, like, cheated on

Hayden Paul [00:27:14] every book report, going on spark notes and stuff. Like, I did not like reading. And I'm reading Mere Christianity, I'm reading the Book of Mormon, and I'm, like, having these feelings isn't the right word for it. I'm having, like, these experiences of light and intelligence and truth. And I remember one day, it was near the end of me going every single day for months at a time, and I was walking out of, like, my morning study session at the seminary building to the high school, and it was, like, sunny out because it's almost summer. We're at the end of the year. And I remember just looking into the eyes of the kids walking into the seminary building, and I just had this overwhelming outpouring of love for them, and I didn't even know who these kids were. I just felt this charity, like, I would do anything for them. And it was, like, such a testament to me that, like, the words in the Book of Mormon that the idea of Christianity in Christ, like, there's something that is beyond understanding, that can turn an apathetic, rude, crude teenage boy into someone who can look at a strange stranger, a freshman, some freshman kid, and, like, love him. And that was the first time I had ever felt this unconditional love for someone. I felt it many times since, but it was the first time. And that was so influential for me in cementing that. Like, I. I want to go down this route because there's something here. I don't know yet. I can't articulate it, but there's something there. Jackson probably saw a change in me.

Jackson Paul [00:28:54] Yeah. So I mean, very quickly I saw that, that desire for charity and to treat others like Christ would treat them transferred to treating me better. I'm like, this is awesome. And I just saw such an incredible change in him that really showed me that, wow, there's. There's value in the words of Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon. And then Hayden got his mission call, went to Hungary.

John Dehlin [00:29:25] Before you jump to that, can I ask a couple more questions? Yeah, yeah, but. But don't lose wherever you were going.

Jackson Paul [00:29:30] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:29:30] I just want to stick to the timeline a tiny bit.

Jackson Paul [00:29:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:33] And ask a couple more follow up questions.

Jackson Paul [00:29:35] Sounds great.

Worthiness, Repentance, and Bishop Interviews

John Dehlin [00:29:35] So did you have to have repentance moments with your bishop? Did you go in high school?

Hayden Paul [00:29:42] In high school, did you go through that? I obviously had no. Well, And. And this is. This will play something. And it's a conversation that I'm sure we're gonna have later on more in depth, because I think we have different. We definitely have different views on it, but I. With it being me coming in during the age of the Internet and the first smartphones and stuff, I struggle with pornography a ton. In high school, like, it was every single day I was looking at pornography, and it was something that I was ashamed of and I didn't want to tell anyone about. And so I hid it up until my mission. And then it wasn't until I was on my mission that I had my first, like, repentance experience. Where and. And where I feel like confession, and I feel like it's. It's misunderstood a ton. I've heard conceptions on this show too, that I don't agree with and I think are misconceptions, but it was the first time that I recognize we can talk about that when we get to my mission. That confession is not tattletailing on yourself or asking for forgiveness from a human authority, but it has. It has a much deeper meaning. And so. But I. I had things, but because of shame, like, no, no dude. And I've talked to, literally, my wife and I used to have a podcast on this about overcoming pornography. And we would talk about it together as a. As a couple. And so we've talked to literally dozens of people. And the more I've learned, the more a dude never feels, like, comfortable and confident in. After looking at pornography. It's a natural feeling, I feel like. And so I just. I took that and I hid it. And it wasn't until my mission that I decided to disclose it.

John Dehlin [00:31:25] But I don't know about you, so you had to. And we'll talk about your philosophies on things later. Yeah, yeah, let's focus on your story now.

Hayden Paul [00:31:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:33] So you had to hide that from your bishop when you were going on your mission, right?

Hayden Paul [00:31:37] Well, I have to. I chose to hit it. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:40] You felt like you. You. You hid it from your bishop.

Hayden Paul [00:31:42] I. I chose to hide it from my bishop.

Jackson Paul [00:31:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:44] Okay. Okay, That's. And that's. I'm. No judgment.

Hayden Paul [00:31:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:46] Yeah. No, and. Okay. So did you feel like you were a disappointment to your parents when you were kind of in your wayward times, and. And did you feel like you're a disappointment to your brother?

Hayden Paul [00:32:02] They didn't really know. I hit it really good. I was just.

John Dehlin [00:32:04] So your parents didn't know you.

Hayden Paul [00:32:05] Yeah, I just lied. I just lied as a teenage boy a lot.

John Dehlin [00:32:08] Okay.

Jackson Paul [00:32:08] A lot of life.

John Dehlin [00:32:09] And your brother. Your brother didn't know you were.

Jackson Paul [00:32:11] I don't know. I just thought. He's just a big jerk. Okay.

Hayden Paul [00:32:14] Yeah, but, like. Yeah, and I didn't. I didn't go super deep off the end. Like, I smoked weed a few times. I. You know, parties, you know, and so I. Yeah. So, I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't like a huge. But, you know, luckily you were feeling.

John Dehlin [00:32:32] So your motivation to repent wasn't based on disappointing your parents or your siblings. It was just not feeling good about

Hayden Paul [00:32:43] how your life was going. Yeah, I. I just knew. I, like my. My spirit, knew the things that I was doing where it was not conducive to a productive life and to developing myself as a better Christian.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] Beautiful. Okay. Beautiful. Good. All right, so you didn't know. You didn't. Look, you just knew. You felt like Hayden didn't treat you well, but you didn't know he was spiritually kind of in trouble.

Jackson Paul [00:33:11] No, I didn't know any. Anything to the extent. Until we were both back from our missions, I think.

John Dehlin [00:33:17] Okay, so let's pause your story.

Hayden Paul [00:33:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:19] Hayden and Jackson, what do you want to share about your spiritual and religious development as a kid, apart from what you've already shared through high school?

Jackson Paul [00:33:28] Let's just say through high school.

John Dehlin [00:33:30] Through the beginning of his mission.

Jackson Paul [00:33:32] Yeah. I feel like.

John Dehlin [00:33:37] Through.

Jackson Paul [00:33:38] Through high school, especially that last year, Hayden and I, we became really close starting his senior year.

John Dehlin [00:33:48] What made you be Nephi growing up? Let me ask that way. What was it about? Were you always kind of super devout and faithful? Were you sort of viewed in the family as the Righteous One kind of thing?

Jackson Paul [00:34:00] Yeah, I. I don't say. I wouldn't say that Hayden set the bar super low until later in life. But I. I don't know if I could give you a specific pinpoint answer of, like, why I had those natural proclivities of seeking after things that are good or Christ like, and not. Not saying, like, oh, I was always perfect, but I just always had that feeling at the end of the day that, like, I needed to be connected with my. My creator and. And my savior. And so, yeah, growing up, I mean, I would. I would go to seminary. I would kind of go through the motions and stuff, and I. I had a lot of significant experiences, like, I was talking about with prayer, both in, you know, bigger ways and smaller ways. And I struggled a lot while Hayden was gone, because he was kind of that person that I would go to and talk about my struggles with my friends or, you know, I played soccer growing up and just kind of would go to him, and.

John Dehlin [00:35:10] You're kind of tall for soccer, bro.

Jackson Paul [00:35:12] Yeah, he was.

Hayden Paul [00:35:14] I was a center. He had a rocket of a foot.

Jackson Paul [00:35:16] I was a center. Back a wall.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] Okay.

Jackson Paul [00:35:18] A lot of people got past me. I wasn't very good. So. But, yeah, I. I struggled quite a bit with not having my big bro there to. To talk to. And honestly, for a long time, I forewent speaking with God in prayer about my struggles while Hayden was gone on his mission. And a significant experience that I had that kind of brought it back for me was the first night that Hayden got back from his mission.

Hayden Paul [00:35:49] 1.

Jackson Paul [00:35:50] He changed even more from the beginning to the end. And it was the first night our mom was like, you know what? Let's have you guys share a room together again. I was like, all right, I guess I'll share a room with this adult. And the first night, I get out from brushing my teeth, and then he's on his knees praying. And then I'm like, all right, well, I haven't been for a while. I haven't prayed in forever, so I'll just run upstairs and come back when he's done. And then I come back 10 minutes later, and he's still there. I'm like, is this dude asleep or what? And, yeah, then I'm like, I leave for five more minutes. I come back, and he's sitting on his bed, and. And then I just start offloading, like, telling him all the things that were going on in my life, all the things that he missed out on, all the struggles that I was having with friends and. And school and other stuff, and he just sat there and listened for, like, 3540 minutes. Well, I kind of just offload to him. And he just sat there after I was done. I'm like, so what do you think, dude? And he's like, dang, Jack, I miss having these conversations with you, and I'm glad that you trust me enough to, to talk to me about these things, but do you ever talk to these, talk about these things with your Heavenly Father? And in that moment, I realized that I had strayed away from turning to God in prayer and had missed out on that comfort that I used to feel when I would go to Heavenly Father with my issues and my problems. And yeah, just seeing the, the drastic change that went through Hayden showed to me that there was value in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and in going on a mission. And so that that was one of some of the big motivators for me prior to going. Besides that, I innately just felt that it was, it was a good thing to help me to get to be the man and husband and father that I one day would want to become.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] Did you struggle with worthiness issues in high school?

Jackson Paul [00:38:01] In high school, I. It wasn't until later on that sporadically I would struggle with pornography, but it wasn't like a habitual thing, kind of like Hayden was talking about. And, and I mean anything.

John Dehlin [00:38:18] Word of wisdom.

Jackson Paul [00:38:18] Yeah, word of wisdom. No, I. I had a. I learned

Hayden Paul [00:38:22] he did different dumb stuff in high school.

Jackson Paul [00:38:24] I learned quickly from some really bad examples of people that I used to be friends with, used to hang out with, and just seeing the way that their life trajectory was going, I just didn't see it as beneficial to participate in those same things. And so I didn't struggle with word of wisdom stuff.

Hayden Paul [00:38:42] You're still friends with those guys too, you know what I mean?

Jackson Paul [00:38:44] Yeah, some of them, definitely. And yeah, but besides that, nothing, nothing huger or crazy similar to Hayden, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:38:56] Okay, so did you have any doubts, did you come on anti Mormon literature or anything like that in high school?

Jackson Paul [00:39:04] No, just like Hayden and I kind of grew up in a little bubble and.

John Dehlin [00:39:08] Yeah, okay, okay. All right.

Hayden Paul [00:39:11] Grew up in the Garden of Eden. That's. That's a way that we conceptualize it, and that's the way that's the way it. That it should be to some degree. Like, his parents job is to create a garden where children can learn without consequence, and then eventually, you know, they partake of the fruit, gain consciousness, and then it's time to work out their salvation with fear and trembling. So I, I feel super grateful that we grew up in A Garden of Eden scenario like we did. And I think it prepared us for the lone and dreary wilderness.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] Nice. Okay. Okay, cool. So. So I guess we go to your mission. Hayden. Yeah. Where'd you serve?

Mission Experiences in Hungary and Portugal

Hayden Paul [00:39:46] I served in Budapest, Hungary. Oh yeah. So it was an epic mission. I loved it. I was not a good student at all in high school. I, I hated school. And so learning Hungarian was like very difficult for me. Is one of those nine week languages. I think it's like Hungarian, Finnish and Mandarin I think are like the three nine week languages in, in the mtc. So you know, one significant event that happened was obviously like I, for the first time I disclosed my struggle with pornography. And I actually I'll, I'll pull up the scripture at the mtc. Yeah. When I was at the mtc and it wasn't because like it was, it was, wasn't any other reason other than like in my soul. I just, I wanted to like share the struggle that I'd been having. And I was reading one day in Alma 13:27 and it just hit me so hard. Like I, I hadn't even thought about that struggle with pornography. Like I was in the MTC for like 5 weeks. I haven't even thought about it really until like a couple days before. I was just like, man, I, I, the biggest problem I had was I lied to my bishop. Straightforward. It was, it was like the pornography is one thing, right? But the fact that like this guy that I really liked, I love my bishop, he's a really good dude and he's just like, hey, just so you know, like, if you struggle with pornography or masturbation or anything, like, I totally understand. I just want to help you out. So is that something that you struggle with? And I just lied to him over and over again. Even though they, there's no reason I shouldn't because he was a really good dude. So a couple days before I started thinking about how bad I felt for lying to him. Just because I don't think that's a good, that's not a good thing you should do. And Alma 13:27, I was reading it says, and now, my brethren, I wish from the inmost part of my heart, yea, with great anxiety even unto pain, that ye would hearken unto my words and cast off your sins and not procrastinate the day of your repentance, but that ye would humble yourselves before the Lord and call on his holy name and watch and pray continually that ye may not be tempted above that which he can bear. And thus Be led by the Holy Spirit, becoming humble, meek, submissive, patient, full of love and all long suffering. Having faith on the Lord, Having a hope that ye shall receive eternal life, having the love of God always in your hearts, that ye may be lifted up at the last day and enter into his rest. So I've read that, and it just. It nailed me in the heart. And I was just like, I need. I want to apologize to my bishop. I. I want to get this heavy weight off my chest of this thing that I'd struggled with and hid from. And so I went. I, like, grabbed my commands like, hey, bro, I gotta go make a call, go down to the MTC office. I call my branch president. I'm like, hey, man, can I talk to you? He comes up. I talked to him just like, hey, I feel really bad about this. Like, I lied to my bishop. I struggled with pornography. And I just remember just this huge feeling of just peace. I'd never felt anything. It's similar. It was just as significant as that day I walked out of the seminary building and felt charity for people that I didn't even know. It was that similar feeling of just, like, peace. I reached out to my bishop. I wrote him a letter. I just said, hey, I'm sorry for lying to you. I wrote to my sick president, too. It's just like, I'm sorry for lying to you. And they never told me to do that. I was never asked. It was just like, I wanted to. To get that off my. Off my chest. And it was the first time that I just felt like I don't. I don't want to hide anything ever. I don't want to. I want to be. Feel so comfortable with the way that I'm living my life and the way that I deal with other men and women that I can just, like, I can just feel comfortable for everyone to know everything about me. Right? And after my mission, we'll talk about this later, that I still struggle with stuff. But I learned a strong lesson that day, that when you hear God's voice calling for Adam, you don't go hide in the garden. You show up, you say, I'm here. Then he provides you with a coat of skins as a representation of the atonement of Jesus Christ. And that safety that comes from that gift of God strengthens you and gives you power.

John Dehlin [00:44:13] And so it's true that the MTC pressures you to confess any sins you hadn't repented of. So you would have been under that instruction or under that influence, because it's a Pressure cooker to repent.

Hayden Paul [00:44:30] Yeah, I mean, well, but you're just saying that's not why I don't agree with that conceptualization of it. I think the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So if you're going to go out and you're going to teach faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, and during the end, the doctrine of Christ is repentance. And so the MTC is a place where you learn the doctrine of Christ and, you know, repent is, is given, I think, 600 times or something like that in the Book of Mormon. So also, if you're reading the Book of Mormon, you're going to be asked to repent.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:01] But I think what John is saying, it's. I think no one can deny that there are specific sections that are designed on the mtc, whether it's a talk or a place where all the missionaries are put in, where, like, there's really heavy talks about repentance. And what happens if you don't repent and you go out on your mission and be. You're not going to have the Spirit and people are not going to be found. Like, I think we all went through that.

Hayden Paul [00:45:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:26] Would you say.

Hayden Paul [00:45:26] I don't remember any specific experience. I don't remember any specific experiences. It's been 10 years.

John Dehlin [00:45:32] But what I hear you saying is it's just the Gospel of Jesus.

Hayden Paul [00:45:35] It's the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] So he's just saying the MTC maybe was one of the first places you were fully, really swimming and immersed in the, in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that's how you'd feel.

Hayden Paul [00:45:45] Yeah. And the, the hardest principle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is repentance. It's the casting off of, of the natural man and trying to become something new. And so I think, you know, I, I don't have any issues with, with that being a central focus in the MTC to helping missionaries.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:04] I don't think we're saying there's an issue right now. We're just saying.

Hayden Paul [00:46:08] So I didn't feel. I guess what I'm saying is I didn't feel pressured in any way. I don't remember any specific instances, but yeah, I loved. I, I like the mtc. I thought it was awesome. And then, yeah, we don't have to get super deep into my mission. I loved it. I worked really hard. I felt more, I had more experiences of that charity that I talked about that I had after leaving the seminary building. And I just, during my mission, it really solidified to me that, like, I want to keep on this path. I don't, I don't know exactly where it's leading. I don't understand everything exactly, but I want to keep on this path.

John Dehlin [00:46:48] Any faith struggles on your mission?

Hayden Paul [00:46:51] Testimony struggles, not testimony struggles. I had, I had a hard time, you know, with just being a missionary is difficult. One thing that was really hard is I went, I had a change on my mission. Where, you know, as we laid out earlier, my whole. Before my mission, my, My goal was to find where the dividing line was between right and wrong and get as close there as possible and sometimes cross over. On my mission, I just decided, I'm like, I'm not going to look for that dividing line. I'm going to go as far away from the dividing line as possible, and I'm just going to try to emulate Christ, which was a really big shift for me. And part of that was subverting my rebellious nature of just like, doing what I want and instead doing things that were asked of me. And so, you know, one of the difficult things about a mission is you go out and you have the white handbook, you have rules and stuff like that. And I remember first getting in, I was like, this is stupid. And immediately I just kind of had this feeling in my heart. It's like, surrender. And so I just made a decision while I was in the mdc. I was just going to surrender. For the first time in my life, I was just going to surrender, which, you know, it was. It's difficult and, you know, I had companions, as everyone does, where you don't agree on stuff, but overall, I, I walked away from my mission still wanting to surrender my heart and, and my, you know, my being to. To God and to Christ and. And that's what I've tried to do ever since, and imperfectly.

John Dehlin [00:48:22] So you finished your mission, what year?

Hayden Paul [00:48:24] 2016.

John Dehlin [00:48:25] 2016.

Hayden Paul [00:48:26] Yeah, October 2016.

John Dehlin [00:48:28] And you serve full two years? Okay.

Hayden Paul [00:48:31] Yep.

Jackson Paul [00:48:31] Okay.

Hayden Paul [00:48:32] So cool.

John Dehlin [00:48:33] Jackson, let's do your. Let's do your time through mission real quick.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:40] Cool.

John Dehlin [00:48:41] Or other things you didn't mention that you want to mention about high school mission.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:47] Yeah,

Jackson Paul [00:48:49] so I, yeah, like Hayden said, I participate in other stupid stuff as a teenager.

John Dehlin [00:48:54] And what do you mean by that?

Hayden Paul [00:48:56] Like eggs and stuff?

Jackson Paul [00:48:58] I, I did not throw a single. I get a single thing. One time we were being really dumb and some friends showed up with a carton of eggs and they're like, let's go throw these at vehicles. And I'm like, okay, I don't want to do that, but I'LL just drive the car. So I'm not doing the actual bad thing. Stupid idiot. Prefrontal cortex was definitely under developed, but yeah, then we got into a little bit of trouble. And that was the day before I was supposed to submit my mission papers. And, and I go into my, my bishop's office and he's like, all right, dude, you ready? I'm like, well, there's this one thing. I don't know if it's important or not. And then after I told him, I'm like, yeah, I gotta go to court. He's like, yeah, that's important. You gotta figure that out. And so it wasn't any huge like vandalism or any, we didn't do any crazy damage or anything, but it was just something that had to get taken care of. And so got that taken care of, delayed receiving my mission call and then, and then got my mission call to Lisbon, Portugal.

John Dehlin [00:50:03] Did you like academics? Did you like studying school, that kind of thing?

Jackson Paul [00:50:09] I would say Hayden kind of set the bar low in that area. And so it's not like I, I, I was doing better than like a two point something. Essentially.

Hayden Paul [00:50:20] I had a three point, I think I had a three zero or a three two.

Jackson Paul [00:50:24] Yeah. So in my mind I didn't love it, but I was always subconsciously like, okay, I gotta be at least a little bit higher than that, you know.

John Dehlin [00:50:32] What were you interested in? Like hobbies or fun or.

Jackson Paul [00:50:35] So many things. I love soccer. I played soccer all growing up. Roller hockey was a daily thing.

Hayden Paul [00:50:42] Yeah, he's definitely the more athletic one of us.

Jackson Paul [00:50:45] Yeah. Was not a, was not a reader. Played an incredible amount of video games and first person shooter, mostly FIFA. I was mostly about soccer and stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] Like Rocket League.

Jackson Paul [00:51:02] I actually stopped playing. I stopped playing video games like at the end of junior year. And that's when that stuff was happening.

John Dehlin [00:51:10] So. Okay, yeah, okay. So video games and sports. Yeah, okay.

Jackson Paul [00:51:14] A lot of, a lot of active things and

John Dehlin [00:51:19] okay, yeah. All right. So you put your mission call in.

Jackson Paul [00:51:23] Yeah, put my admission call in. Got my mission call to Lisbon, Portugal. And yeah, it was, it was when he got called, I actually didn't. A lot of people were like, dude, going to South America. I'm like, oh, South America.

John Dehlin [00:51:40] Why are you laughing? I did the same thing. Like Guatemala. Is that near Mexico? That's what I thought. Is that Mexico?

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:48] That's what I thought.

Hayden Paul [00:51:49] It's closer than Portugal.

Jackson Paul [00:51:50] Yeah, exactly now.

Hayden Paul [00:51:53] Yeah.

Jackson Paul [00:51:54] And then when I heard Portuguese speaking,

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:56] I guess you know, you went, yeah,

John Dehlin [00:52:00] Portugal in Europe for those who don't

Jackson Paul [00:52:01] know, when I heard Portuguese speaking, just the ending geese, I'm like, oh, it's Chinese. Like knees something crazy. I don't know if I'm ready to speak that. But, yeah, I went to the mtc. It was an incredible experience. Yeah, a lot of. A lot of special experiences where that, that was the first time in the mtc. I, I read almost the entire Book of Mormon before then. And then the first week of the MTC is when I finished the Book of Mormon. And I. I felt a. A huge amount of peace reading the. The teachings of Jesus Christ in there and following Moroni's promise of. To ponder these things in my heart and to then take it to God in prayer. And I felt intense love for my heavenly father as, as I went through that process of, of following that invite in the Book of Mormon. And my mission was an awesome experience. I had luckily, great campaigns at the beginning that show me how to work hard and just love being a disciple of Jesus Christ. And I feel that was when I really dived into the New Testament as well. And when I would read things in Matthew like, he who shall lose his life, who lose his life for my sake shall find it. And just kind of like Hayden, I really felt like, okay, I'm going to give my all, because I truly. I started to begin to understand the grandeur of what Jesus Christ had done for me. And reading about all these incredible missionary experiences of Paul in the New Testament and just how they sacrificed so much for the cause of Christ. It was a joy every single day to put on that missionary tag and to go out and represent and to see people change. That's basically the whole theme throughout is I've just seen how the Gospel has changed. My brother has changed people around me, changed my father. And that is what has really enticed me, is bad men turning good and good men becoming better.

Hayden Paul [00:54:18] You have lots of comforts Portugal there,

Jackson Paul [00:54:23] it's tough because Portuguese people are kind of like a lot of European countries where they're super closed off at the beginning, but once they open their hearts, they're just the kindest, most loyal people. And so there's a lot of Brazilians out there. And so I fell in love with the Brazilian culture as well. And, yeah, I was blessed to get to know a lot of different cultures and people that are really open to receiving the gospel.

John Dehlin [00:54:47] I don't think missionaries are allowed to talk about numbers. I think that's discouraged. Is that right?

Hayden Paul [00:54:53] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:54:53] She didn't really?

Hayden Paul [00:54:54] Answer it.

Jackson Paul [00:54:55] Yeah, because.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] Which is fine.

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:59] I was tracking them every day.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] Yeah, me too. And recording them.

Jackson Paul [00:55:05] Yeah. I don't know if I could tell you the number right off the bat, but I could tell you the stories of. Of the people. And so, like, to me, I just, like. I wouldn't say, like, oh, we had 25 boxes checked. Like, no, I. I never looked at it like that. And I was never really motivated by that. I understand the. The functionality of keeping track of progress and making sure you're productive. That goes in anything in life. And. Yeah, I didn't mean to, like, dodge your question. It's just like, I. I never, like, think of it like that. And so. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:38] Yeah.

Jackson Paul [00:55:38] But it was the reason I asked

Hayden Paul [00:55:40] 10,000, because I. I served in Mexico

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:42] City and we were baptizing quite a bit.

Hayden Paul [00:55:45] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:45] It was still a struggle to learn. Read the scriptures and the stories of the missionaries in the Book of Mormon and how they go and baptize thousands. I couldn't imagine how I struggle with those stories. And then being in Europe and having a lot less success than probably a missionary in Mexico City would have. If you ever struggle with that.

Jackson Paul [00:56:09] Yeah. No, I mean, motivation.

John Dehlin [00:56:12] Right.

Hayden Paul [00:56:12] Eastern Europe was. Is rough.

Jackson Paul [00:56:14] Yeah. Every missionary, I think if. If you're. If you're doing it right, if you're just trying to be the best missionary you can and just teach as many people as you can about the gospel, you have that Alma moment where you're like, if I could be. Have the voice of an angel to proclaim this to all the world. But no, we. We would do. I. I really wanted to focus on helping people to feel the spirit. And so one thing that I. I love to do, and honestly probably did every single day in my mission was we would knock on people's doors and ask them if we could say a prayer with them in their homes. And we would ask them things that they're struggling with and tell them that we were ordained representatives of Jesus Christ and we wanted to pray with them, and we would pray with them about their specific needs, their struggles in life, and, you know, ask if we could come back another day to help them understand more about the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so it was. It was.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:18] What years did you go on your mission?

Jackson Paul [00:57:19] 2018 to 2020.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:21] Okay.

Jackson Paul [00:57:21] So I got back. My last transfer was the last, like, normal transfer of the world before COVID Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:28] So basically you. Yeah, you. You missed. You dodged the COVID bullet, which God bless.

Jackson Paul [00:57:34] Because I. I don't know what I would do if I couldn't go out in the street every day. I would. We just barely got phones, like, halfway through my mission. And so I only did Facebook finding, like one time, and I was like, know I'd rather just to talk.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:48] Yeah.

Jackson Paul [00:57:49] Face to face. But.

John Dehlin [00:57:51] Wow.

Jackson Paul [00:57:51] So you sure works other places.

John Dehlin [00:57:52] You only been off your mission four years. That's crazy.

Jackson Paul [00:57:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:57] Okay, cool. All right, that's good. Okay. So you're both off your missions. I mean, what do y' all want to share about? Like, you're both married, right? Both married now.

Hayden Paul [00:58:10] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:58:11] And. Okay. Did y' all go to school? Tell. Do you want to talk about getting married and.

Jackson Paul [00:58:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:18] And I want to hear about military Cool before maybe we jump into the church stuff.

Hayden Paul [00:58:23] Yeah. So for me, I got home from my mission and, you know, this is. This was a big foundational part of, you know, my story is after I got home, I. I actually started dating a girl. We weren't like, dating seriously, but, like, we would hang out a lot and we. We dated a little bit. She was evangelical. And so for the first time in my life, I was being. What's it called? I was being

Jackson Paul [00:58:56] like.

Hayden Paul [00:58:58] What's the word? Like, I was being challenged in my faith. Obviously, on a mission, you're being challenged on your faith, but it was like, this is someone. I have a personal relationship. They're challenging me on my faith. And they started to. That's when I started to watch morm stories. That's when I started to read different literature and really try to dive into the history of the church. And that was about, you know, two years off of my mission. Probably. When I got home from my mission, I was doing a lot of traveling. I. I used to do video production and have a video production business and I would just travel around the world. So I went to like 18 countries in three years and. And do video. And it was kind of the combination of traveling and seeing all different parts of the world and also seeing some of the poverty in all the parts of the world and asking these existential questions of, like, why is there all of this suffering? What. What's up with all of these different faith traditions? And. And then. And then this girl that I was having conversations with that I was just like, really, like, okay. I have never considered the possibility, like, seriously that all this could be made up and fake. And so for the.

Post-Mission Life, College, and Career

John Dehlin [01:00:10] Were you in school? Were you.

Hayden Paul [01:00:12] No, I didn't do school. I don't know. Our family, it's kind of funny. All the dudes in our family, we skip college and all the women have degrees, so that's kind of how we've done it. Not on purpose, it's just how it goes.

John Dehlin [01:00:27] You just weren't interested in school?

Hayden Paul [01:00:29] That was an interest in school. Like, to me, I wasn't really interested. And the juice didn't really seem worth the squeeze, so I didn't do school. And so, yeah, I'm. I'm digging into all of this sort of stuff.

John Dehlin [01:00:41] And did you have a career in mind?

Hayden Paul [01:00:43] No, I was just like, I'm gonna do video production and so just kind of take.

John Dehlin [01:00:47] Do it. Work with your dad and kind of follow that line.

Hayden Paul [01:00:50] And I was doing a little work with my dad, but most of it wasn't with them. And I was just. I liked the, the freedom, but it was a little too unstructured for me. So it's like I could get a job and get paid $5,000 and I was a single dude, so that would go pretty far. And then I would just like have a bunch of free time.

John Dehlin [01:01:06] Were you living at home?

Hayden Paul [01:01:07] No, I was living away from home. And yeah, so I would spend most of my days, like I would do a job, have some money, and I would spend most of my days just like reading, going to the library, on the Internet, listening to Mormon stories, listening to other things.

John Dehlin [01:01:23] Okay, really quick, I'll come back to the Mormon stories part I'm curious about. Someone emailed me today who knew I was interviewing you guys.

Hayden Paul [01:01:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:32] Said that they had heard you were involved in being kind of Tim Ballard's videographer. Is there any truth to that?

Hayden Paul [01:01:40] I didn't do any videography for Operation Underground Railroad, but I did work for Operation Underground Railroad for about two years. And I was. I did. I did like fundraising. And then for a little bit of that, I was like a personal assistant with Tim.

John Dehlin [01:01:57] Oh, wow.

Hayden Paul [01:01:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:58] So you've, you know Tim up close.

Hayden Paul [01:02:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:02] Dang. Did you see?

Hayden Paul [01:02:04] So what I'll say. What I'll say about this is I worked with Operation Underground Railroad. I spent, I. I went on a few operations and they were successful. Like, we were invited there by the law enforcement of those countries. They had us do work for them, which led to the rescue and the arrest of. So the arrest of an American pedophile who'd been on the run for 10 years and had unfortunately raped a 9, 7 and 5 year old.

John Dehlin [01:02:33] Which country was this?

Hayden Paul [01:02:34] This was down in Mexico. It's all out. I'm pretty sure they've released all that stuff out. So it was down in Mexico and it was a successful operation because I. Because it was when VICE started coming out with claims and I started asking questions and they're like, if you have questions, go on an operation. You can see how it works. So I went out there, did that and you know, I worked closely with like the Aftercare team. So they had individuals who. Their job was to specifically just make sure that all of the survivors were getting therapy from reputable like organizations in the countries that they were from. So we didn't take on like the therapy of. Of people because we understand that cultures and everything is different. And so, so I, I just. Everything that I saw now, no organization's perfect, but everything that I was a part of and I saw like there was actual good that was being made.

John Dehlin [01:03:29] So you went to the Mexico jump in what year?

Hayden Paul [01:03:33] 2021 or 22, I think. I can't. One of those.

John Dehlin [01:03:40] Two or three years ago?

Hayden Paul [01:03:41] Yeah, two or three years ago.

John Dehlin [01:03:41] What was the other one you went.

Hayden Paul [01:03:43] It was also a follow up in Mexico. What was that mission about? And that one was. It never actually metastasized. Like it was. We had something going on and then it just never worked out. And so do you have a.

John Dehlin [01:03:58] And you could just say, I don't want to talk about it. But do you have. I mean, the allegations with Tim, I'm sure you know, are that they were partying at strip clubs, that they, you know, the. The couple's ruse that he was recruiting women to be his fake wife and then he was assaulting them. Do you have thoughts on all that stuff now?

Hayden Paul [01:04:18] Yeah, I never had. I have zero personal experience seeing any of the allegations that were made. Um, I. If what Tim. If what is being alleged happened, my hope is that Tim repents and that that is what happens. That's. That's my hope. If they're legitimate, I have zero first hand experience of that.

John Dehlin [01:04:43] So you just don't know what's true.

Hayden Paul [01:04:44] So I don't. I don't know what's true. Without a shadow of a doubt. Right.

John Dehlin [01:04:48] What made you stop working for our.

Hayden Paul [01:04:50] The stick of Joseph? Actually I just. I felt I had an experience where I was like, this is what I need to do. It made zero sense because at the time Sound of Freedom was just about to come out and everything was like, really like looked like it was going to be good. And I was just like this call like, hey, go do this YouTube channel. So I quit and I went away. And then. So, yeah, that was 2022.

John Dehlin [01:05:13] You are that troubled you or not really just a great.

Hayden Paul [01:05:16] From an organizational Standpoint? No, I didn't see anything. I mean, there's just normal people, but like there was nothing on a systemic level that I was like, oh, this is a bad organization. I need to get out. Or from Tim's behavior, you know, every single person is flawless. I don't want to get a ton into it. It's flawed. I mean, yeah, it's flawed. And so I. I don't want to get too deep into that stuff. I don't have any personal experience with any of the allegations that were made because they were all happened behind closed doors.

Jackson Paul [01:05:48] Right.

John Dehlin [01:05:48] And I respect.

Hayden Paul [01:05:49] And so, yeah, allegedly. Allegedly they happened behind closed doors. Right. And so.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:55] And you were. You were listening to Mormon stories while working or o. You are?

Hayden Paul [01:06:00] Yeah, I was listening to it then. And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:01] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:06:02] And before did we talked about our. On Mormon stories?

Hayden Paul [01:06:06] Yeah, with Packer.

John Dehlin [01:06:08] Is that what made you start listening to Mormon stories?

Hayden Paul [01:06:11] Oh, no, I was listening before. I was. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:06:13] Okay, so let's go back. What. When did you start hearing doubts about the church? Issues about the church, problems with the church? Like, what precipitated you even listening to Mormon stories?

Hayden Paul [01:06:24] It was talking to that evangelical girl that I was like dating and hanging out with. So we had tons of. We had tons of back and forth. We'd have hour long conversations where she'd be like, what about this, this and this? And I'm like, I don't know, let me go look into it. So during that Mormon stories was the

John Dehlin [01:06:37] first thing you found to help with those questions?

Hayden Paul [01:06:40] It was what she listened to. So she would send me like, hey, look it, they're saying this about Joseph Smith, they're saying this about that and that. So I would listen to it. And that's how I first kind of got into it.

John Dehlin [01:06:50] Any. Any episodes you remember listening to early on?

Hayden Paul [01:06:53] Not specifics now. It's all kind of a lump together.

John Dehlin [01:06:56] Okay.

Hayden Paul [01:06:57] But yeah, so I. During that time is when I was like really digging into stuff and trying to figure out like, what is the truth, why do I believe what I believe?

John Dehlin [01:07:09] And let me just ask. Sorry. So what most people experience when you listen to Mormon stories is they start really going deep and they become very intensely motivated or sucked in by specific episodes. Did you just kind of jump around or was that. Did you ever listen deeply to any episodes that really impacted you? So can you name any?

Hayden Paul [01:07:39] No, I can't name any specifics. Kind of jumping around. I was listening to like almost every episode. I was listening to it like a lot, but there wasn't any that I Was like, oh, Smoking Gun.

John Dehlin [01:07:49] This can't remember any of the episodes you listen to.

Hayden Paul [01:07:51] And that's just not really. That's just not really like my. How my mind works. I do, I remember some people go,

John Dehlin [01:07:59] well, the Michael Coe episode or the Robert episode.

Hayden Paul [01:08:02] Yeah, and I listen to Michael Coe and the Robert Rittner and I listened to. I remember when you had what's his name, Jim Bennett on like two years ago or three years ago. I listened to that one and I listened to. Yeah, just.

John Dehlin [01:08:22] That's fine.

Hayden Paul [01:08:23] A ton of different. And so I was listening to Mormon stories. I was diving into all this stuff and I was just like, man.

John Dehlin [01:08:29] So when you were trying to find

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:30] answers for whatever was being brought up on Mormon stories, where were you going? Fair, Scripture, Book of Mormons.

Hayden Paul [01:08:36] I was going to just the scriptures mostly. I was going to the scriptures. I was going, I would go to fair and stuff like that, but I didn't have like a hub that was like, this is where all my answers were. I was just on the Internet trying to reason things out in my head, in my heart, going to the scriptures, digging into that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:53] So if you would hear Joseph Smith practice polyandry, you would go read one on the scriptures.

Hayden Paul [01:08:58] Well, I'd read, I would look for all the first hand accounts. I'd try to go to like all the sources of those things and I'd read those.

John Dehlin [01:09:05] Where would you find those sources?

Hayden Paul [01:09:07] You'd read like Joseph smithpapers dot com. You would, you could find a lot of stuff and you guys would reference a lot of things in, in episodes and I'd click on links through there. But yeah, during that time it was just. I, I also had, I was going to institute at the U. And I had a teacher that I was taking church history stuff from and I really liked him because he like was not. He didn't sugarcoat anything and I could just like level with them. So him and I had tons of conversations in his office during that time too.

John Dehlin [01:09:38] Did you read any books during that time? Like, like, no. Like the book to read on polyandry or polygamy would be In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton. Did you read any?

Hayden Paul [01:09:48] I didn't read, I didn't read that book specifically. I read Rough Stone Rolling. I read Fawn Brody's no Man Knows My History. Yeah, I read that. I read. Then I, I was reading like William Clayton's journals and stuff like that. That's where a lot of stuff on, on polygamy is. And so I read that I used a lot of Books for more, like, references. Like, I'm interested on a specific thing. So I would go through here. I didn't read every single book from beginning to end.

John Dehlin [01:10:17] Did you find the CS letter?

Hayden Paul [01:10:19] Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then I read the CES letter. That was actually, like, the first,

Jackson Paul [01:10:24] like,

Hayden Paul [01:10:24] thing that I sat down, I read, and then at the end I was like, oh, okay, I gotta. I gotta ask some questions. Right. And so that was that. And that was actually. I think that was the first episode that she sent me. Was Jeremy Reynolds on your show, the CS letter? Now that I remember.

John Dehlin [01:10:40] Okay. Okay.

Hayden Paul [01:10:41] So I listened to all those interviews that you did with him, read the CS letter, and then just kind of continually listen to different people. I listened to the Sandra Tanner episodes. I remember listening to those ones early on as well. So.

John Dehlin [01:10:55] Okay. And was your. So, Jackson, were you back from your mission when Hayden was kind of starting to.

Jackson Paul [01:11:03] No.

John Dehlin [01:11:04] You're still on your mission. You probably didn't share with him these. Because he's on his mission.

Hayden Paul [01:11:09] Right.

John Dehlin [01:11:09] Okay, so you're. Would you say you were struggling with your faith or just learning?

Hayden Paul [01:11:13] Yeah, no, it definitely, like, I had questions, and it was the first time, like, I started my prayers. My prayers were like this, and I even had, like, a conversation with my. I think it was my mom or my dad, I can't remember, but I was like, hey, I'm looking into this stuff. I'm trying to figure out what path I want to go, and if I feel like I need to go, then I'm going to go that path. And my prayer started to change. I was like, heavenly Father, I want you to lead me to the truth and, like, help me see it. And so during that time where I'm doing, like, the heavy study, I'm doing a lot of traveling, so I have a lot of kind of alone time while I'm traveling and stuff like that. That's kind of when I was going through and I came to a lot of realizations and. And I don't know if you want to get into it right now, but maybe in the next thing of. Of worldview, of. Of why I. I still stand so strongly in the restored gospel.

John Dehlin [01:12:01] Yeah, yeah.

Hayden Paul [01:12:03] But. Yeah, that was a. That was a formative period for my faith and kind of, I think, a building block for why we decided to do the stick of Joseph and stuff like that.

John Dehlin [01:12:11] So were there ever. Did you ever reach a faith crisis point where you just decided the church wasn't true or, like, we're really in a dark place questioning whether you wanted to keep believing or did you never even reach that point? Kind of the dark night of the soul. It's described as. Would you say you ever reached that point? Not everyone does.

Hayden Paul [01:12:34] Yeah, I would say I had individual instances where I'd have feelings that would last like, you know, a day or two where I'd have a question. But there wasn't like a. For six months. I'm like completely out of whack. I don't know what to believe. But I, I would read something and I'd be like, oh man, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig. Try to find a resolution and then read something else. Same thing. But there wasn't a period of time. And it's where I learned a really. Because this is what I did. This is my. And I feel like this is a really important lesson. What happens a lot of times when people come to what, you know, some call anti Mormon literature, things like that is they, they're like, I already know what the church has to say. I already know that story. Oh, I just touched the camera. I already know that story. But. So I don't need to look into that anymore. I'm just going to dive into this. But that completely disregards the fact that as human beings we are very moldable by our environments. And so when you suck yourself into just one side of a story, even though you already know the other side of the story, it will obscure your vision. And you know, when I was in the Marine Corps, this is the first time like it was conceptualized to me and I was like, oh, that's what it is. When you're, when you are shooting your weapon and you're firing your weapon, you are supposed to shoot with both eyes open. So you're looking through your optic, but you have both eyes open. The reason why is because you close one eye, you lose half of the battle space and you get sucked into your target. And then you make bad decisions when you are only sucked into your target, what you're looking at, you make bad decision, bad decisions that get you or your friends killed, right? And so it's the same thing when you come across this sort of con or content on anything, right? Or two prevailing opinions. You have to keep both eyes open. So I would spend just as much time reading my scriptures and reading like a faithful response to something as I would reading, you know, no man knows my history or non faithful response. And so it was during that time that I felt like, okay, now I can see him one side or the other. I felt the poll to just put all the faithful stuff aside and, like, just get into the stuff because it was new, it was interesting, and it grabbed my attention, but I don't know what it was that told me to just like, no, you have to make sure that you are. You are digging into both at the same time. And so I think that that was something that was really important and helped me to gain perspectives and an understanding that may be unusual in some ways.

John Dehlin [01:15:03] Okay, so you had questions and even doubts, but you never really had a faith crisis.

Hayden Paul [01:15:08] Tons of them. Yeah. I mean, I never doubted my faith in God and Christ. I doubted.

John Dehlin [01:15:14] Or the church.

Hayden Paul [01:15:15] I. No, I did doubt the church as well.

John Dehlin [01:15:17] Okay.

Hayden Paul [01:15:17] Yeah. So I doubted the church. I had experiences where I did doubt the church. And I was wondering, should I become an evangelical Christian? Oh, I was looking for. I was looking for the path that Jesus wanted us to walk. That. That's what I was looking for. But as I dug in deeper and deeper, I feel like there's. There's three different layers to stuff. And it's like there's a superficial layer that a lot of us are. A lot of people are familiar with. Then there's the second layer, which is kind of the stuff that you talk about on Mormon stories. And then I feel like there's a third layer where those two things synthesize together. And I feel like that is kind of where I. I landed at was like the synthesization of. Of the messiness of. Of human existence and where the divine touches with that messiness.

John Dehlin [01:16:04] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:05] Okay. And you're not the first one.

John Dehlin [01:16:06] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:07] Like, you will see Richard Bushman, who probably knows all the.

Hayden Paul [01:16:09] Yeah, for sure.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:11] Joseph Smith, but then comes out as a believer.

Hayden Paul [01:16:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:16] Okay, that's. That's really interesting. That's really. So I'm sure I'm. I'm really stoked to get into how you took that second layer of problems and questions and synthesized it to deeper truths. Dying to get there. But we still gotta catch Jackson up, so.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:34] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:16:35] So while you're on your mission, Jackson, your brother Hayden's going through all the questions and doubts. We left off you coming home from your mission. How did your faith and interest in eventually apologetics progress post mission?

Joining the Marine Corps and Faith

Jackson Paul [01:16:54] I was probably one of the last of my friends to get back from my mission. And I remember one of those first weekends back, I went down, visited Orem and just hung out with a bunch of them and kind of went and experienced the college scene, like, just a few days after getting back from my mission and saw that a lot of the people that I knew that went and served missions as well and were active members to what I thought had now started to adopt a different lifestyle.

John Dehlin [01:17:23] And what do you mean by that? Different lifestyle?

Jackson Paul [01:17:27] Not holding, not practicing their faith as they. They did previously. Which ways like drinking, drugs, you're saying

John Dehlin [01:17:40] return missionary friends were drinking and doing drugs?

Jackson Paul [01:17:45] Yes. And so I. It was a little shocking to me to kind of. Were they at byu, get back into the lone jury world? No, they were just living down in Utah County.

John Dehlin [01:17:55] Okay.

Hayden Paul [01:17:56] And

Jackson Paul [01:17:58] I got back and Hayden in 2019, so, like a few months before I got back from my mission, he enlisted in the. The Marine Corps. And it was the weirdest thing ever because just like, progressively I would get pictures from him. Like, him, like, he, like, started going

Hayden Paul [01:18:19] American flag stuff, things like that. And he's like, what's going on?

Jackson Paul [01:18:23] Slowly getting more patriotic. And then one day I just get a picture of him raising his arm to the square and swearing into the United States Marine Corps. I'm like, what's happening to my big brother? And so I get back, I have that experience, and I'm just trying to figure out, like, what kind of, you know, I had this crazy experience as a missionary to kind of really grasp. Grasp an understanding of the value of following Jesus Christ and building a family on the rock of Jesus Christ. And I was able to come out with a lot of spiritual discipline and understanding. However, Hayden, right when I got back, started chirping in my ear. He's like, yo, you ever heard of that guy Captain Moroni?

Hayden Paul [01:19:06] Like, he.

Jackson Paul [01:19:08] He's pretty cool dude, huh? And yeah, he can tell his story of why he. He joined the Marine Corps and stuff like that. But I was, as. I was really trying to understand what kind of a man I wanted to become. He. He left for the Marine Corps about a month after I got back from my mission, and I.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:30] What year do you come back?

Jackson Paul [01:19:31] 2020.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:32] Okay, okay.

Jackson Paul [01:19:32] And he's like, dude, just go get the information from the recruiter. So I'm like, all right, well, I'm just going to be ignorant, not get the information from him. Let me go talk to Mr. Recruiter. And so I went and talked to him. And then slowly I started to feel that it would provide me an experience, a really difficult, hard, challenging experience to gain attributes that I saw as extremely valuable to be a good husband and father in the future. And so I had these feelings that it was a good idea for me to, you know, follow my big brother, Captain Moreau and I, and join the Marine Corps. That's How I referred to him. And I was an ordinance worker in the Draper Temple at the time, and I don't know. Have you ever been an ordinance worker before?

John Dehlin [01:20:21] No, never.

Jackson Paul [01:20:22] So how it kind of works is they. They schedule you out, so you're doing something different every 30 minutes. And the last 30 minutes, I just had a study time where you can just read the Scriptures. And I decided one day I felt that it was good for, like, it would provide me good experiences, but if I were to take that step and join the Marine Corps, that I needed an anchor to look back on, to know that that is where I needed to be. And so I decided in those last 30 minutes that I would go up to the celestial room of the Draper Temple, and I would find that answer. And so I grabbed a triple combination like this one, and I sat down and I said a prayer to the tune of Heavenly Father. I feel that this is good, but just like I said, I need an anchor to look back on if this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And so with all the faith in my heart, I was like, if you need to add a scripture in here to answer my prayer, like, I have the faith that you will do it if. If it is requisite for me to do this. And so I flipped open the Book of Mormon and eyes closed, eyes closed, looked up, flipped. Flipped open the Book of Mormon and pointed to the bottom left corner. And I flipped to a page in the. In Alma, in the war chapters. And I pointed to a scripture in Alma 53, verse 2. And it's talking about Captain Moroni and a man named Lehi. And it says, and Moroni went to the city of Mulek with Lehi and took command of the city and gave it unto Lehi. Now, behold, this Lehi was a man who had been with Moroni in the more part of all his battles. And he was a man like unto Moroni. And they rejoice in each other's safety. Yea, they were beloved by each other and also beloved by all the people of Nephi. And so in that moment, I. That was a crazy experience for me because this whole time, I'm referring to my brother as Captain Moroni. I flipped to a scripture that says, this man Lehi is a man like unto Moroni. And he passed the city onto Lehi. And I. I felt just an extreme, indescribable sense of peace and warmth, of just clarity of mind. That's the only way I can describe it. Clarity of mind, of this is good, and it will provide you with experience that will be essential to your success as a father and a husband in the future. And so I then went, signed the dotted line, raised my arm to the square, and, yeah, we. We can get more into that. But I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:23:23] You felt like Heavenly Father wanted you to become a Marine?

Jackson Paul [01:23:28] Yeah.

Hayden Paul [01:23:29] And it was kind of cool to go on with that scripture. I didn't realize this till a couple weeks ago, but the whole idea of passing off the city. So I got into boot camp three weeks later when I hate my life because it's. It's absolutely terrible. It's a mcrd, San Diego in California.

John Dehlin [01:23:45] That's right.

Jackson Paul [01:23:46] Good weather at least.

Hayden Paul [01:23:47] Yeah, it's good weather at least. But you just hate your life three weeks into boot camp, like, it's absolutely miserable. And I get a letter from my brother. He's like, hey, bro, I enlisted. I'm like, I'm the worst brother ever. Why did I convince him to do this? Right. Obviously, I've changed my tune since then, but it was cool because my last days being there were his first days, and we actually got a meet. And so, like, this idea of, like, passing the city off is like, we met at boot camp. I'm like, hey, bro, you're up next. Then he goes. Then I go to the School of Infantry in Oceanside, California. Last weekend there, I'm sitting up in the rafters as the new Marines come in. I see my brother, and we spent some time, hey, bro, it's your turn now. I go home. And so it's been something that's really bonded us as brothers. And it's a complicated relationship, the Marine Corps. It's kind of an abusive relationship in some ways. You know what I mean? And it's complicated with political climate that we live in and stuff like that. But I've felt that we needed to make that oath to defend the Constitution. We make that oath to God, and we don't make it to any president. We don't make it to any person. We make an oath that we're going to defend that document. And. And that was something that. That we needed to do.

Reconciling Military Service With Religious Belief

John Dehlin [01:24:59] Let me ask you about that, just because we're on the topic.

Hayden Paul [01:25:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:03] The Book of Mormon kind of complicates things as it relates to war. Because if you just go with Jesus and what he taught in the New Testament, he's all about peace. He's all about forgiveness. He's all about love. Turn the other cheek. So, like, to think about Christians becoming soldiers, where you kill people. Like, there's a, there's a face reading of Christianity to just think that's not compatible. You don't, you don't worship the Prince of Peace and go kill people, you know, but obviously that's not how America works. Like, or most Christian countries, most Christians are somehow able to take the Bible, or in your case, the Bible in the Book of Mormon and totally feel even more super Christian as you engage in, you know, defending the country and, or acts that someone views violent. How do y', all, how do y' all synthesize that? Or, and I, I'm guessing it's the Book of Mormon, but how do you synthesize your beliefs in Jesus with how violent war is? Yeah, you know, I know it's a tough question.

Hayden Paul [01:26:16] It's a tough question. It's a good one. I, I guess a question. I'd love to get your thoughts on it too. A thought that I have is, what in, in an instance where there is a threat to the bodily harm of people, what, what do you think is. So do you think the Christian view or the Christ view would just be like, let people mow people down or like, if there's like a tyrannical government or something like that, what are your thoughts on it? Why? What, what, what do you think Christ would be? Because I'm just trying to understand what you mean by. It doesn't seem like there's any way to reconcile him.

John Dehlin [01:26:54] I mean, again, if you believe in the Book of Mormon, then clearly prophets are all cool with war, you know,

Hayden Paul [01:27:02] and the Bible as well, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:27:04] The Old Testament.

Hayden Paul [01:27:05] Yeah, Old Testament.

John Dehlin [01:27:06] But then. So first of all, I don't have any judgment. Like, I believe in defending your country. If I had to defend my family or my country in war, I'm sure I would. I think war is probably the most evil thing in the history of humankind.

Hayden Paul [01:27:25] I agree.

John Dehlin [01:27:25] I hate it. And yeah, I would want to defend my family and my country. However, I also hold the scriptures loosely. I see value in the scriptures, but I also don't take them super literally. So when Jesus says, turn the other cheek and be peaceful, I'm like, yeah, but, you know, Jesus said good and bad things, and so I'm not going to take that literally. So, so my answer to you is, I guess, my worldview now, I would go, well, Jesus was a person who said wise things, but he didn't have opinions about everything. And he didn't really talk a lot about actual war and political conflict per se, other than like rendering Caesar's. What is Caesar's Yeah. So I don't. I don't know. If you would have asked me back in my very literalistic Mormon days, I think I would have had a harder time reconciling being a soldier with my Christianity. Honestly, if you're asking me now as kind of a more secular person, I'm like, whatever the scriptures say, you got to defend your country. But I'm not sitting there saying, I love Jesus. I worship Jesus. Jesus is my everything. But y' all kind of are.

Hayden Paul [01:28:42] Yeah, yeah. No, and I think that overall, it's kind of a recognition that we live in a fallen world, a place where there are people that want to commit violence on other people for their own purposes. And I. I very much stand in a. A violence only in defense type stance. I think that it's crazy. Since I've joined the Marine Corps, I've become more of a pacifist. I. I think a big part of it is because I actually see the implications of it. Like, when you practice committing violence on other people, you understand what that actually means. And that's why it really bothers me a lot of times when people talk cavalierly about war and about things like that, because it has serious implications and it causes a lot of suffering for a lot of people. And so my job as a Christian is to stand and to alleviate suffering where I can. And I think to. To stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves. And so it's complicated, especially when you are a Marine in the defense of a country where the leaders depending on what's going on, you don't even know if you. You trust their environment. And so where I've kind of reconciled as. As a Marine and as a Christian is I have a duty to the Marines that I am with, to help them, to foster faith, to not lose their souls, and to protect them. And that is. It's a. It's a complex. It's a complex thought process that happens. But I. I agree with you. I think that that war. And it's something I've been thinking about recently a lot, actually, because there's a possibility that it becomes real.

John Dehlin [01:30:31] So you haven't.

Hayden Paul [01:30:31] The way things are.

John Dehlin [01:30:32] You haven't deployed, like, active duty kind of stuff.

Hayden Paul [01:30:34] Not. Not yet.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:35] Okay.

Hayden Paul [01:30:35] We. We actually have one coming up. And so I think about this a lot. And I've been asking that same question. You can't say where, but we've been asking that same question of, like, how do we reconcile this? And I don't know. What I do know is That I, I've made a commitment to protect the Constitution, which I do believe is a fundamentally true doctrine or a true document that holds true teachings and, and doctrine about humanity and, and how to, how to treat each other. And so I, yeah, that's what we're gonna do, but it is, it is complex. Jack, do you have any thoughts on that?

Jackson Paul [01:31:16] Yeah, I, I'd say for me personally, I just look at the products of nations that don't value Christ and, or try to eliminate the teachings altogether, like some communist states and the end product that, that produced. And to defend the right for any man to worship God how will. Or what they may, whether it is to worship or not to worship, I see that as an extremely worthy cause to, to defend basic human rights. I feel that that is a Christian value. Me personally. Yeah, that's to provide the opportunity for people to worship God or to not worship God. I don't think that man should have their thumb on top of someone saying, worship this or don't. You can't worship this. That to me, defending the right to worship is an extremely Christian ideal to me.

John Dehlin [01:32:19] So you, you see, you're going to be deployed somewhere. You're saying that if you see combat wherever you're deployed, your motivator for engaging in combat will be protecting religious liberty wherever you are. Is that what you, is that what you just said?

Jackson Paul [01:32:41] Yeah, yeah. That's a huge motivator for my reasoning of being part of the United States Marine Corps.

John Dehlin [01:32:47] So, so to be sent to countries where they're, where religious freedom is being challenged and then to engage in military action because. But so when we don't, when we engage with the country, usually we're not engaging with the country. Like let's just say, let's just say Syria or Iran. I don't think we, we go to war with Syria or Iran because there's not religious freedom in the country, although there probably is not a lot of religious freedom in the country. We're going there to protect oil interests, sort of protect alliances. We're not. So the purpose of those missions are to protect our assets, protect our interests, protect our alliances. So I guess I'm saying that.

Hayden Paul [01:33:38] And that's the frustration about being, being in that. Like, that is the difficult part. That's the complex part is like we, we made that, that covenant with God to protect the Constitution. And unfortunately.

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:54] What do, what do you mean covenant with God?

Hayden Paul [01:33:56] So when you put your, when you put your hand to the square, okay, and you make a covenant to, to God that you'll protect the Constitution against enemies foreign and domestic.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:05] I didn't know that. It's still you. You do it to God today.

Hayden Paul [01:34:08] Yes. Uhhuh. And so you make that, you make that covenant. And that, that's a complex thing. That's the thing that we struggle with as Marines is you look at the past wars and it's, I mean, since we're, since World War II, it's like. Or the Korean War, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:34:27] Yeah. With Vietnam and Korea, we were trying

Hayden Paul [01:34:29] to stop communism, but even Vietnam, even Vietnam's just like. Yeah, but, you know, you. Communism and religious freedom are antonyms. They, you don't, you don't have religious freedom in a communist state. So you can say that like the, the first thing that they do. And I've done tons of study on this. Like, for example, in, you know, Russia, the, the, when they were kind of, when the revolution was happening, they would do things. And there's a really good, there's a really good book by Rob Dreyer called Live not by Lies, and he talks about this. But one of the first things they do, they, they want to get rid of religion. So they have school children pray and they would pray to God to bring them lunch and they'd have them pray for like hours and then they would pray to the communist leader and boom, he brings it in. I have a really good friend, her name's Yonmi park, and she, you might know her, she was on the Joe Rogan podcast and talked about escaping North Korea and things like that. And you know, the North Koreans, what they do is they took the Bible and they put in Kim Song Gil, Kim Jong Un and all them. And they, they put them in the, in the place of the father and the son. And so they use, they use, they have to get rid of the idea that there is a higher being in order for communism too.

John Dehlin [01:35:49] I see. I totally understand that communist countries in many cases outlawed religion. I get that. And I concede that nowadays when we have military conflict, though, it's less about Cold War, anti communism stuff and more about other, you know, it's kind of Russia, China, Middle east against other alliances. And I'm not even, I'm not doubting or questioning you, like, personally. It's more just like, whoa. Once you tell me, Hayden Christian, Jackson Jackson. Once you tell me that your military service is heavily religion based, knowing that our foreign policy often is not driven by the protection of religious freedom. I'm just wondering how you square that with your motives for military service. That's all. Yeah, maybe I'm being too literal. And my, that's just how my brain's working when you say that.

Jackson Paul [01:36:45] Yeah, no, I, I would say that that's the biggest qualms with being a part of it because not everyone has those same Christian values. Right. Like you were saying, some people have motives, different motives for, for going to conflicts and stuff like that, going to war. And we, I haven't personally been put in that position where those things like combat and the deployment that we're doing is not inherently antagonistic or anything like that. It's a routine kind of trading operation that'll, that'll last a while. And so I guess I'll have to come back and respond when, when I am put in that position because.

John Dehlin [01:37:27] Yeah, yeah, okay.

Jackson Paul [01:37:29] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:30] Well, you know, my dad served, he's a veteran, and I was taught to be patriotic and I absolutely respect our military service for what they do and the sacrifices they make. So I'll just say thank you for your service.

Hayden Paul [01:37:47] Appreciate it.

John Dehlin [01:37:48] Yeah, yeah. And I respect it. So I hope you all are safe when you're deployed.

Hayden Paul [01:37:55] Yeah, we do too. So.

John Dehlin [01:37:59] Okay. Anything else you want to say about that or.

Jackson Paul [01:38:03] Yeah, I would say, well, the, the experience of going through the initial, like seven months of training, if you are, if you join the infantry, you do 13 weeks of boot camp and then, you know, three and a half months of follow on training for infantry. You. For me, it was just a couple of months after I was a full time missionary getting put into an environment that was really, really different, to say the least. And just after, you know, the first day not cussing, people start to ask questions like, like, why are you different? Essentially? And I was put in a lot of positions early on where, you know, people would ask me why I do certain things. And specifically, like, in regards to, I, I, I realized very quickly on that giving the answer to a Marine that, you know, the, the spiritually based answer is not very effective. And so it helped me to critically analyze why it is that I choose to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ. And it got to the point where, you know, I was being asked constantly, like, so like, you're a Mormon, you don't drink, you can't drink, right? And I'll be like, oh, dude, I can drink however much I want. I can drink whatever I want. It's awesome. Like, oh, like, what's, what's your favorite drink? Then I'm like, oh, no, I don't drink. And they're like, what? I'm like, yeah. Because the amount I Want to is zero. I have seen people in my family and friends destroy their lives because of alcohol. And it could be that I, you know, try alcohol, and it doesn't really. It's not a really big thing for me, but I've seen it do greater harm than good. And I don't see adopting that lifestyle will bring greater things. As if I were to abstain from doing that, and then they'd just like, okay, cool. Like, then they would respect my beliefs because I would explain the rational reason, the logical reason why I don't indulge in those types of activities. And I have a question.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:21] Wouldn't you say, though, that the word of wisdom and your faith in the church has a big part on it?

Hayden Paul [01:40:26] Yeah, of course.

Jackson Paul [01:40:27] And obviously, like, that's another whole factor. I'm just saying when I would explain my beliefs to people that don't share the same beliefs, logically, that that's the. The reason I would lead with. And then obviously, because of my religious beliefs and faith in God, that's just the stamp on. On that, if that makes sense.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:50] Yeah.

Jackson Paul [01:40:51] But I bring that up to say that I had to critically analyze why I live the way I did, if that makes sense. Yeah. And so.

Hayden Paul [01:41:00] Yeah, and I think you go along with that. I've had. I had the exact same experience. Like, we're kind of known as, like, the Jesus guys in our unit, you know what I mean? Like they. Pastor Paul or things like that. Right. And I'm grateful for that because as Jackson said, we have to have a reason for the faith that is within us now. And I think this is what's so important, is when it comes to the commandments and things like that, I believe that there are rational, real reasons why they exist. It's not just a arbitrary thing. And that's one of the unique characteristics of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints, and our cosmology and conception of God is that we don't believe that the commandments are arbitrary rules put on by a creator that created everything out of nothing. We actually have a completely different cosmology, which answers a lot of questions. And so for us, when. When you look at the commandments, it's an invitation to figure out why. And that so far, I've been able to dig and find a reason why. And the Marine Corps has been a good help in that. And it's also been great, too, because we've just learned how to hang out with dudes that have, like, not the same moral compass as us, you know what I mean? But we love them. And I literally lay down my life for those guys. And I love Marines, and it has really helped us to have kind of a foot to make sure that we don't get. Because it's really easy. You don't want to get high and mighty. You don't want to think that you're. You're special. It's. That's the fall of every single person. And so it's been a good way for us to remember that. Like, there's good people everywhere, and I love these guys. And it. It's. We've had some really awesome conversations because of that.

Marriage, Family, and Mormon Values

John Dehlin [01:42:39] Okay, now I have a couple questions more. So. So you. Y' all are both married, is that right?

Hayden Paul [01:42:47] Yes, we're both married.

Jackson Paul [01:42:48] Do we.

John Dehlin [01:42:48] Either of you have kids?

Hayden Paul [01:42:50] I have three. We just had our third one two days ago.

John Dehlin [01:42:53] Congrats.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:53] Congrats.

John Dehlin [01:42:54] So two days ago.

Hayden Paul [01:42:55] Yeah, he's in the NICU right now, so. But he's doing good.

John Dehlin [01:42:59] And Jackson, do you have kids yet or.

Jackson Paul [01:43:01] No? I've been married for two and a half years. No kids yet.

John Dehlin [01:43:05] No kids. Okay. Okay. I mean, when you say, I'd lay down my life for my buddies, and. But you have a wife and in your case, kids, like, I don't know that I would want to lay down my life for a buddy if I had wife and kids.

Hayden Paul [01:43:22] Yeah.

Jackson Paul [01:43:23] Well, you have to think in the perspective, obviously, if we are put in a situation in which we, you know, have to go defend our. The Constitution. Right. And we're put in that position where, you know, at that point, you have just your buddy to your left and your right, like that. That's the context that we're talking about. And obviously, we. We think about that a lot differently now. But I. Just to give a context.

John Dehlin [01:43:52] Okay, okay. But, yeah, I'm sure you've thought about what I'm saying. Like, once you have kids, I mean, I can remarry, but once you have kids, they can't get a new dad.

Hayden Paul [01:44:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:01] And then get a stepdad.

Hayden Paul [01:44:02] That's a. That's the. That's the biggest. That's my biggest worry, you know, and it's. It's a difficult thing. And, you know, me and my wife have had to have hard conversations, especially with the deployment coming up. We have to figure out what can possibly happen. I do. I do think of the. The Christian adage from Christ is greater love knoweth no man than he who layeth down his life for his friends. And I would lay down my life in an instant for My children and my wife, and in many ways, like us joining the Marine Corps, I do believe, despite its intense flaws, that the, The American experience, the American Constitution, is something that is worth sacrificing for, something worth defending. And so even though it gets complex, as we've laid out, because I don't think that for many years any of the conflicts we have been in is, has. Have necessarily been in defense of the Constitution, it gets complex. But if we're in that scenario, we're going to do the best that we can for the guys that we're with and, and maintain our soul and our faith and, and help them do the same.

John Dehlin [01:45:12] Yeah, that's a great point. When I think about, like, the Vietnam War, I'm like, how is that defending the Constitution? That's, that's just doing what you're told, but without a real clear reason why.

Hayden Paul [01:45:22] Yeah, it's a mess.

John Dehlin [01:45:23] Or with the Iraq war, the fact that, I don't know, trumped up charges without evidence, it. That would suck to die for a war led by politicians that really isn't defending the custom. Why, why do we have to kick outside Hussein and take over a country or two? I mean, I guess some folks from Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, bombed the U.S. but like, yeah, that'd be hard. That'd be so hard to, to question the political leaders that drive the military decisions when you may not agree with the mission.

Hayden Paul [01:46:06] Yeah, well, no world leader gets to decide why a Marine laid down his life. That's them for the Marine to decide. And so even though you, you can find yourself in, in situations that you wouldn't have made those decisions, but you've made a commitment for something higher. Like when a Marine lays down his life, he lays it down for, For God, for country, for family, for his buddy to his left and his right. And I understand that there has to be a certain screw loose in the head of a Marine. And I've spent a ton of time around him, so it doesn't make sense to a lot of people. But the, the sort of, the sort of spirit that both Jackson and I have is the type where when we hear something went wrong, like if there's a school shooting or 911 or something like that, we're not like, oh, man, I'm so glad I wasn't there. It's. I wish I could have been there because maybe I could have helped. Maybe I could have made a difference. And there's a little screw loose in our heads. I understand that it doesn't make sense to a lot of people. But that's the type of people that are there in the Marine Corps. They're people that are willing and they, and they are service oriented and want to help others.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:25] Would you have liked to be there on January 6 to defend the capital,

Hayden Paul [01:47:34] to defend the Capitol?

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:36] Well, from, you know, from people who are trying to get in and hang mic bands on that kind of stuff.

Hayden Paul [01:47:43] Yeah. I mean there, I, that wasn't really my job. I, I wasn't.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:48] Well, you just said you would be.

Hayden Paul [01:47:49] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:49] You would want to be where there's a school shooting. I'm just thinking about if there has

John Dehlin [01:47:54] been policemen were hiding under their desks and barricading themselves.

Jackson Paul [01:47:58] Yeah.

Hayden Paul [01:47:58] I would have loved to tell people to not to not do that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:01] Okay.

Hayden Paul [01:48:01] I would love to.

Jackson Paul [01:48:02] Yeah.

Hayden Paul [01:48:02] That was really stupid. It's a really dumb thing to do.

John Dehlin [01:48:05] Okay.

Hayden Paul [01:48:06] 100.

John Dehlin [01:48:07] Okay, one last question about military stuff. And then I want to ask a political question, but military wise, like if, you know the way I was raised, especially byu, you know, it's. And with. As a Mormon, it's like the Constitution is almost scripture. It's a, it's a sacred inspired document.

Hayden Paul [01:48:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:26] God made America to. So that his true church could come out of the one true country. And America is literally the new Jerusalem where Jesus is going to come someday. Like there's this American exceptionalism with which I was raised. I graduated BYU as a strong, Rush Limbaugh loving Republican. Rah, rah, America, all that. Once I started studying history more and heard about the dark things that America has done too, like subverting whether it's like elections in Guatemala or elections in Chile, overthrowing governments with the CIA, unjust wars, whatever. Yeah.

Hayden Paul [01:49:15] Secret combinations.

John Dehlin [01:49:16] Yeah. Just. Just bad stuff like.

Hayden Paul [01:49:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:21] And then when I started studying history from like trying to understand all points of view, it made me realize that like we, there are wars we should not have started. And there are other causes that are legitimate from their point of view, from the other country's point of view. So once you're like, huh, we're not better than anybody. We've got good things. We've got a lot of money, a lot of power, a lot of assets. And there's a. We've got democracy, which is good and bad. But I mean, there's a lot of good in America, but there's a lot of good in other ways of life. And they make mistakes, but we make mistakes. Then all of a sudden a soldier for the other side, you start thinking, well, that's probably just a dad like me.

Hayden Paul [01:50:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:13] Who enlisted because he believed in his religion, and he's there fighting for his constitution and his wife and kids or hers. Then all of a sudden, when you think about war, then you're. Then it's not like I'm the good guys, they're the bad guys. I'm right, I'm righteous, my religion's true and theirs is wrong. It's more like, we both think we're right. We both think our country's great, we're both defending. Then if you have to kill someone, that's a whole different ball game because you're. You know, I used to talk to my stepdad who was a veteran of multiple wars, and he was a bomber pilot, and he had to think about it as, I'm bombing trains, I'm not bombing people. Right. I'm bombing factories. I'm not bombing people. So in his mind, he would just objectify his target and totally not think about the humans that were dying who were fathers in other families or mothers. You know what I'm saying? Or innocent civilians. He had to just not think about the people aspect. And so I'm wondering how much y' all have y' all thought about, like, other perspectives and what. What it would mean to take a life knowing that their dads or moms, just like you guys for sure would

Jackson Paul [01:51:30] think about it, be terrible. War is awful. And, yeah, I pray every day that we don't ever have to experience that.

Hayden Paul [01:51:40] Yep. It's just. I think it's as simple as that. And I think that the const. And that's why the Constitution is not even America. America is trying to follow the Constitution. The Constitution in and of itself is. Is a miraculous document, and it's something worth dying for. I feel very strongly about that. But, yeah, I'm not going to try to defend the actions of wicked men who have made, you know, who have done. Who have conspired together for power and for money and for evil. That has happened under the guise of the Constitution. But the Constitution itself is something that I would die for.

John Dehlin [01:52:31] Yeah, conceptually, I totally get that. Tactically, when you're on a mission and you do start thinking about actual combat, I guess it's hard, but. But we need service people. So y' all are doing. Y' all are doing work that is to be respected, especially to know you're not warmongery about it, but. But you're just like, hope we never have to hurt anyone. And, you know, war sucks. And, you know, I. I really respect that frame of mind.

Hayden Paul [01:53:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:01] Because not that you need my Respect.

Hayden Paul [01:53:03] There is just a. A sad fact. It's laid out in DNC121 that when.

John Dehlin [01:53:09] Unrighteous dominion.

Hayden Paul [01:53:10] Yeah. People practice unrighteous dominion. And there are wicked men. There are people in this world that would love to take control of America and subject it to whatever their whims are.

John Dehlin [01:53:21] For sure.

Hayden Paul [01:53:21] There are people that would want to do that for sure. And.

John Dehlin [01:53:24] Or to kill us all.

Hayden Paul [01:53:25] Or to kill us all. There are actually people. And people have a hard time conceptualizing that there is serious evil out there. And so we want. We're willing to stand between evil and what we love. And it gets complex in practice, but we trust that we'll be able to navigate it if we hold on to our. Hold on to our faith.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:51] Love it.

John Dehlin [01:53:52] Thanks for entertaining those questions. Yeah, slight change of subject. Politics. So we've had people like John Larsen and Kara Burrell on that are, you know, very, very liberal politically. And we've had a lot of people on Mormon stories condemn Republicans or condemn conservatives or condemn Trump or, you know, MAGA or whatever. Right. And it's been a while, you know, we did. We've done, like, you know, Mormons for Trump or Mormons for Biden, you know, back years ago. But it's been a while since we've really talked about politics and since a lot of people go Mormon stories as hostile. John, you're hostile to conservatives, or John, you're hostile to Trump people. You need to realize there are lots of ex Mormons, for example, that actually like Trump or that are Republicans. I want to ask you guys a little bit about your politics, if that's okay. Is that all right?

Politics, Voting, and the Church

Hayden Paul [01:54:52] I have an. I have an answer. I have a good answer.

John Dehlin [01:54:55] Well, you don't even know what I'm gonna ask, but. Okay, I want to hear what you think I'm gonna.

Jackson Paul [01:54:58] I want to hear the answer starting with maybe I'. The question actually is.

John Dehlin [01:55:03] Yeah, okay. Okay. And this isn't a gotcha, just to be clear, because I think there's valid reasons to have any political point of view.

Hayden Paul [01:55:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:11] I want to talk specifically about your Christianity as it relates. So do you guys identify as like, being, let's just say, more pro Trump than more pro Biden or pro Harris? For example, are y' all Trump? Would y' all vote for Trump in this election? If you want to say. And if you don't want to say, that's also okay.

Hayden Paul [01:55:38] This is. This is what all had to say, because I think this isn't a gotcha. Yeah, no, I think me. I Think we all feel very similar. I hate politics is kind of where I'm at. Like, I'm. I'm sick of it. And I just want to share something. And this is. This is my answer in the end. And I. I know you might feel like it's a dodge, but I feel like that this. This describes something that's really important in the New Testament. When Christ is being crucified and Pilate has him standing there. And remember, he gives the people a choice. He says, you can let Christ go. Let's let Jesus go. You can let one person go, or you can let Barabbas go. In the earliest New Testament manuscripts, Barabbas's name was actually Jesus. It was Jesus Barabbas. And what does Barabbas mean? Well, it's Hebrew. Bar means son and abba means father. So what you have is Jesus Christ the son of God on one side, and then you have Jesus the son of the Father, on the other side. Now what was Barabbas put in there for? And it says in verse 19 of Luke 23, and they cried out at once, release unto us Barabbas, for who a certain sedition made in the city for murder and was cast into prison. So he was put into prison for sedition and murder. So he was probably. A lot of scholars think that Barabbas was actually what's called a sicario, which is a guy who would go around and kill Roman dignitaries. He was a like a Jewish zealot that would kill Roman dignitaries. Right? Now, the reason this is significant is because during the Hebrew festival of the Day of Atonement, they would bring out two goats. One of them was called Azazel. The other one represented Yahweh. And they would say they would. The high priest would go and he would declare Azazel cast out. And he would cast him out. He would let him go and let him into the wilderness. And then he would take the pure one and we go and sacrifice it on the altar. And that was for the sins of Israel. And so the reason I bring this up is because there was a choice made to either pick the political revolutionary that would bring them salvation from Rome, or to protect or to choose Jesus Christ who would give them salvation from their sins. And they chose to release the political revolutionary because the people of that time were focused about politics and the Messiah, the political Messiah is what they were looking for. They weren't looking for a spiritual Messiah. I see both Republicans and Democrats creating political messiahs that they are saying are going to solve all of our problems. Now, is it important to be a well informed citizen and to participate in the democratic process? I do believe that. And I'm not saying, oh, don't care at all. What I'm saying is I am less worried about trying to get people to vote a certain way as I am to getting them to repent and turn to Jesus Christ. Because in the end, that is what is going to allow this American experiment to go forward. And so I don't really want to talk about which political messiah I think is best, because I think both of them are distractions from the true Messiah, which is Christ.

Jackson Paul [01:59:12] Amen. And as a service member, I won't answer that question as well. What I say when people ask me if I'm a Republican or a Democrat, I tell them I'm a Christian. And any idea that coincides with the teachings of Jesus Christ, I'm all for.

John Dehlin [01:59:28] Okay. And I respect both those answers a lot. And I don't. You may not have commentary on what I'm about to say. It's, it's my, like when I was, when Bill Clinton was running for president the first, first time he was, he's running against George Bush senior. George Bush senior. And I was a, you know, I was a Rush Limbaugh loving Republican. And I was excited when Bill Clinton won the Democratic primary because I knew there's no way he would win in the general election, especially after it came out, all his affairs and, you know, all that, all that stuff. So, and that's kind of what it meant to vote as a Christian to me back then, which was you vote for the most moral candidate by the standards of Christianity that you possess. So for me, it's bad to have premarital sex or it's bad to have affairs. You vote for the person who's moral. That's a really important consideration. And in my mind back then, Clinton's morality disqualified him from office. Fast forward to now. The, the, and this isn't me taking sides either way because I kind of feel like you do. Without the religious messiah piece, I don't think either political party is probably going to save us. And if I got excited about Kamala, for example, it would just be a few weeks before some decision got made where I'm like, oh my gosh, like, it could be a disaster either way. Either way, it could be a disaster. Even though I don't think there's for me a moral equivalence between the two candidates. But my main question is how do Mormons support Trump in 2024, seeing that he is, he appears he presents as the opposite of what Mormon Christian morality is. Right. He's the opposite of what y' all are. Y' all aren't here to smear people, to degrade people, to talk down to people the way he's talked about women. Like my Mormon brain in, in 1992 would predict that Trump would never win Utah based on my moral Mormon sensibilities. But now it's. How do Mormons who are devout believers suspend their, their values around morality to vote for someone that many would say, if you talk about anti Mormon, it's almost like whatever you think of as being the Mormon ideal, you could argue Trump's the opposite of that. Now, you guys may not want to answer that question, but I'm, I'm curious if.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:37] I think you're asking generally.

John Dehlin [02:02:38] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:39] How do Mormons do it?

John Dehlin [02:02:40] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:41] Who vote for Trump.

John Dehlin [02:02:42] Yeah. Or, or if you guys have personal opinions about that. If you want to share.

Jackson Paul [02:02:47] Yeah. I would say again, as service members, like, we're not going to explain how someone could support either party because that's, that's not something that we're going to actually.

Hayden Paul [02:02:58] Yeah, we're actually not supposed to do that.

Jackson Paul [02:03:00] So, yeah, I would ask, ask someone that would be willing to comment on that. And that's purely from a service member perspective.

Hayden Paul [02:03:07] Yeah, it's a problem with the two party system. You get stuck between, between a rock and a hard place and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:15] Okay. Okay, cool. All right. Should we go to. So how did y' all become apologists? Should we go there?

Origins of the Stick of Joseph Project

Hayden Paul [02:03:31] Yeah, I mean, it all kind of happened very naturally. I just had a couple spiritual experiences that kind of put me in this direction. It all started with, hey, you should travel Lehigh's trail and look into the geography, archaeology, all this sort of stuff, and, you know, see what you find, like, really dig into it. And so that's what we did. We tried to raise some money from friends and family. We put together some money, we went over, we filmed, we went together, we wanted to put together a documentary, and we're still putting it together. So let's go before that, what.

John Dehlin [02:04:13] Tell me how you got to the point where you would feel like there was such a concern or a need that you wanted to put a document, documentary together. So you had questions, you prayed, you resolved them. Jackson, I don't know that we got your story in terms of, like, when you started having doubts and questions and how, if you had a dark night of the soul or whether you actually asked yourself, is it possible the church isn't true? Is there Anything you want to share about that?

Jackson Paul [02:04:43] In that regard, I would say my experience has been seeing people close to me choose a path of life abandoning not just the church, but their beliefs in God as a whole and the product that that has led to the

John Dehlin [02:05:03] fruits in their life. You're saying?

Jackson Paul [02:05:05] Yes, is what I'm saying. And I have seen the incredible blessings that I've been able to experience growing up in the environment that I have and experiences with God that I can't personally deny. And after the experiences that I've had specifically with the Book of Mormon have been a rock to me that obviously I've encountered different things and I think will go into more of our worldview and how we see things. But I. I didn't have a similar experience as Hayden did in. In searching in that regard. Motivated by that.

John Dehlin [02:05:53] You've never had that dark night of the soul where you weren't sure the church was true and started to think it might not be, or even you've never lost your faith?

Jackson Paul [02:06:01] No. I would say that the darkest I. That I've ever gotten to was there was an experience in which my companion and I were teaching an atheist on. On my mission in the north of Portugal, and I really wanted to look at his point of view and try to get in his shoes and understand where he was coming from. And so, like, conceptually, like, I try to, like, think as an atheist and like, I kind of committed a little too much, and I. I really, like, I guess got to a point where if. If God isn't real, like, what does any of this mean? Like, and I guess that's the darkest point that I've ever gotten to. But it wasn't anything of a similar situation that. That Hayden went through, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [02:06:58] Okay. Okay, cool. That's helpful. Okay, so. So talk to us, Hayden, about what made you feel like there was a problem. What was the problem you identified? What made you come to the conclusion that there was a problem, that you would then want to try and go make a movie as a solution.

Hayden Paul [02:07:26] Yeah. And there wasn't too much forethought, like I said. And we talked about this a little bit earlier, like, I had a good job and it looked like things were going well with our. With our and stuff, and I was just like. But something called me out. It just pulled me out.

John Dehlin [02:07:44] But were you, like, seeing a bunch of friends leave the church, or were

Hayden Paul [02:07:46] you, like, not really mad at Mormon

John Dehlin [02:07:48] stories or mad at the ces?

Hayden Paul [02:07:50] Not really. I think overall, yeah. I mean, worried that the church was

John Dehlin [02:07:53] Shrinking or, you know, any of that.

Hayden Paul [02:07:56] Like, I didn't have any huge, like, existential feelings towards. Towards it. It was. I felt called to go do this. I, I do. At. By that point, yes, I was frustrated with the most of online content being towards trying to discredit and pull down the Book of Mormon and things like that. And so I was like, you know what? There's a lot of things I still don't know. I'm. I'm a very. Like, I don't have a lot of talents, but one of the talents I have is, like, I'm super curious. Like, I just. I want to dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig. And so I took that curiosity, and I'm like, all right, well, let's. Let's go down this route and see what we find. And so that's really what it was. Jackson was a lot more. When I brought him along, he was much more like, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna defend. Like, I'm ready to go do this. And I was more like, yeah, I want to do that too, because I feel like I, I, I feel my bones at the Book of Mormons. True. But, like, I'm still curious. I want to figure out what's going on. Like, what's, what's really going on. And so that's kind of how it started. And we went. We filmed the first few, like, Lehigh's Journey. So we were in Jerusalem, Jordan, Saudi Arabia.

John Dehlin [02:09:15] Where'd you get the money from?

Hayden Paul [02:09:16] We just fundraised with friends and family. Just a lot of. A lot of good, generous people.

John Dehlin [02:09:21] And so, like, from friends from our,

Hayden Paul [02:09:24] like, no, no one from our. Just friends from, like, Just, like, friends and family.

John Dehlin [02:09:29] Wow.

Hayden Paul [02:09:29] So it was that. That's. I. I worked as a fundraiser for you are. And so, you know, I learned how to. How to fundraise money, which is, you know, good talent. So. And it was just really good, generous people. They were like, hey, this sounds really cool. Let's do it.

John Dehlin [02:09:43] Saudi Arabia.

Hayden Paul [02:09:44] Yeah. So we went to Saudi Arabia. So we. We couldn't make it. That's in Yemen. We couldn't make it to Yemen because of, obviously, the violent. Like, we tried as hard as we could. Like, I was looking for. For private security. I was calling around and being like, hey, can we go here? And they're like, no, we'll chop. They'll chop your heads off. And so when we were like, okay, we don't. But I'm a Marine.

Jackson Paul [02:10:04] But I'm a Marine. Probably not.

Hayden Paul [02:10:06] Yeah. So we decided not to do that. But down in Saudi Arabia, we went to Wadi Taib Alissam, which is a candidate that famously like the Astons, you know, and I'm blinking on their name. George Potter talks about it, but there's another. Yeah, George Potter, they. They claim is a candidate for the Valley of Lemuel. And so we made it down to there and then we plan a trip to go to Oman. We're going to the airport. We're on the way. Like, the whole crew's like, ready to go to the airport. We get a call, and this is like October 13th, I think is when we were leaving. We get a call from our film fixer in Oman and he's like, oh, your permit's been revoked. You can't come because the Israel hamasing kicked off and obviously Oman is a Muslim country.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:59] Yeah.

Hayden Paul [02:10:59] And when Biden went over to Israel and was like, hey, we're supporting you guys. Then they were like, we're not supporting any American productions. So they revoked our permit. So we had to cancel. So we didn't get to get to, you know, Oman Salalah, where. Where it's believed that land of Bountiful is. So.

John Dehlin [02:11:16] So did you record some stuff?

Hayden Paul [02:11:19] Yeah, so we record a bunch of stuff and we've had some time, so we came back with a bunch of footage. And then we were like, hey, in the interim while we're doing the documentary, let's just like put some things on YouTube and, you know, we'll build like an audience that might be interested in the documentary. And then like, it just like took off way more than we were expecting.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:38] And so that's kind of when sticker.

Hayden Paul [02:11:39] So then it was just like, channel. Yeah, that's where the Sticky Joseph channel started. And then we were like, because we don't have any help or funding or anything, we're like, we don't the creating the weekly YouTube video. And then also the documentary just got so overwhelming. The documentary kind of got put on hold and the YouTube kind of took precedence. But, you know, we're still very much trying to get that done and we have some plans to hopefully get the. The documentary and put together.

John Dehlin [02:12:06] So for those who don't know the reference, I do, because I went to seminary. What is. Why did you name it the Stick of Joseph? The YouTube channel?

Jackson Paul [02:12:16] Yeah. So we named it the stick of Joseph because there is a passage in the book of Ezekiel, chapter 37, that as from a Latter Day Saint perspective, we see as a prophecy of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon being described as the stick of Joseph and the stick of Judah being bound in one hand. The stick of Judah being a record of the Jews, the Bible, and then the stick of Joseph being the Book of Mormon coming together to confound.

John Dehlin [02:12:48] I'm rusty. What is. Who. Which Joseph are they talking about in Egypt.

Hayden Paul [02:12:54] Egypt. Joseph of Egypt. So, and this is a fundamental thing with the Book of Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:59] From one of his sons. From.

John Dehlin [02:13:02] From one of Joseph's son, Joseph, one of the 12. Oh, the Josephine, the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. Joseph.

Hayden Paul [02:13:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:13:10] So one of the 12 sons of Jacob or Israel. We're saying that Lehi descends from Joseph in the Amazing Technicolor Dreamco. Basically.

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:21] And so the stick of Joseph comes through. Okay. Through Joseph the son to Lehi. And then because the Book of Mormon comes from there, it's the stick of Joseph and the stick of Judah because

Hayden Paul [02:13:37] it's written by the Jews. Manasseh. Right. Lehigh, NASA.

John Dehlin [02:13:43] Okay. All right. Okay. Ezekiel 37. Got it. All right.

Hayden Paul [02:13:47] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:13:48] Okay.

Jackson Paul [02:13:49] So, yeah, And I'll just say the. The motivation that I had for participating in the channel is because, like I said, I've watched, you know, hundreds of hours of Mormon story podcasts, different people that are antagonistic towards the church and as.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:05] How do you hear about Mormon stories?

Jackson Paul [02:14:07] Just on YouTube. You type in the Book of Mormon on YouTube, and probably it's one of the first things that come up. And so then obviously, as someone that holds the Book of Mormon as the word of God, I was frustrated, obviously, when it's presented as you. Essentially, the narrative is you have to be stupid to believe that it is an ancient record and the word of God. And so I don't think I've ever

John Dehlin [02:14:36] said that, by the way.

Jackson Paul [02:14:36] No, I'm saying that that's.

John Dehlin [02:14:38] People who believe are stupid. I don't.

Jackson Paul [02:14:39] I'm not saying you said that. I'm saying the narrative stories. Yeah. The narrative that is put forth a lot of times that online is that you have to disband all reason to hold the belief that the Book of Mormon is an ancient document.

Hayden Paul [02:14:56] Well, you probably would say that either you. Like, there's probably two routes, and correct me if I'm wrong, but how I've understood how you've presented it is you either have to be ignorant of the problems of the Book of Mormon or you have to display high levels of cognitive dissonance in order to accept it or just.

John Dehlin [02:15:13] And dismiss science.

Hayden Paul [02:15:15] Yes. So. So in other words, you have to either be ignorant on one end. So. Or, yeah, you have to Be.

John Dehlin [02:15:24] No, there's three options, okay? Be uninformed. You can either be uninformed or you can have cognitive dissonance and be informed, or you can just kind of say, I'm going to suspend my knowledge of science and just bracket this all as a domain of faith and just not bring my knowledge of science into it. It. So it's three.

Hayden Paul [02:15:49] Three possible ways.

John Dehlin [02:15:50] Yeah.

Hayden Paul [02:15:50] But there's no option I would add.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:52] Another one is the one where you go, well, the Book of Mormon is so good, no one could have written it. Scientific science can't explain it, therefore it has to come from God. And there are some archaeological problems, science, DNA. But then it's just so good. And I have spiritual experiences with it. I believe it's true.

John Dehlin [02:16:16] Yeah. Which for me is compartmentalization. You kind of just say, good fruits. Makes me feel good. I don't know about all the science stuff, but I'll keep the science stuff in its own domain. And I'm going with faith and the fruits, which I don't think is a bad thing, by the way. And I don't think that there's a correlation between intelligence and faithfulness. In fact, I think there's good evidence that there's an inverse correlation, that the smarter you are, the better you are at employing cognitive dissonance, the better you are at employing motivated reasoning to justify your beliefs. So anyway, I just want to be clear to you and anyone watching that I don't see a correlation between intelligence and non belief.

Jackson Paul [02:17:05] Okay.

Hayden Paul [02:17:05] Would you say it's like, is it a. Is the compartmentalization? Is that deception a form of self deception?

John Dehlin [02:17:11] No, I think we all compartmentalize. Like, how does any of us go around with all the death, the rape, the murder, the hunger, the famine, how does any of us get out of bed? Like, we just, we just don't think about Africa, we don't think about Asia, you know, different parts of Asia. We just, we don't think about parts of Detroit or, you know, West Valley. Right. We just like put that out of our minds and focus on my kids and my wife and my job and. Because if we tried to hold all the suffering in the world, we all collapse. So we all compartmentalize.

Hayden Paul [02:17:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:53] And I don't think an inferior mind chooses to keep faith. I don't think a dishonest mind, a weak mind and an unintelligent mind chooses faith. I have brilliant, high integrity friends that choose faith. And they're kind and they have high integrity and they're super smart and they just compartmentalize yeah.

Hayden Paul [02:18:19] What? So why don't you choose faith, then?

John Dehlin [02:18:22] Hey, this is my interview. What are you talking.

Hayden Paul [02:18:23] Well, no, I'm curious. Well, I'm curious. I want to get to know. You've been doing this for so long. What is it? Specifically because you're intelligent, you. Is it that you ditch the idea of faith? Or what is. What is the. Yeah, What's. What's the reasoning? Why you. You don't fall in that realm.

John Dehlin [02:18:43] So, like, I. Like, people get mad at me when the interviews turn to me when they've tuned in to hear your story. So this isn't me dodging, but I'm hesitant to want to even talk about my own personal beliefs because I feel like it detracts from why people are here. Like, I kind of want to come on your show and you can ask me all about my journey, and I would tell you, but I kind of don't want to distract from your story by getting into my stuff. What do you think?

Hayden Paul [02:19:14] I'd love to. I'd love to have a conversation. I feel like that's kind of interesting.

John Dehlin [02:19:17] Can we talk about the end?

Jackson Paul [02:19:19] Okay.

Hayden Paul [02:19:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:20] Can you save that question for the end?

Hayden Paul [02:19:21] For sure.

John Dehlin [02:19:21] Not dodging it. I'm just saying. Let's save it.

Hayden Paul [02:19:23] Yep. Let's do it.

John Dehlin [02:19:24] That. Okay. Okay.

Hayden Paul [02:19:25] Sounds good.

Scripture, Science, and Creation Beliefs

John Dehlin [02:19:26] All right. Okay, so let's. I have, like, 100 questions I want to ask, but. But you can answer them with one word, or like, I don't know, or I don't believe that, or I don't want to answer that. And we can take them very, very briefly. But I've got a series of questions that would help us understand how you see the world and how you have maintained your faith in spite of evidence or in spite of science or in spite of whatever things that might trip people. Like mirror Gerardo up.

Hayden Paul [02:20:02] Yeah. Tell me what you think about this. What if we mix these last two in together and we just have. We take each of the subjects and we. And we have conversations about them instead of quick round of done, done, done, done, done.

John Dehlin [02:20:14] The only. The only problem with that is then we may not get to a lot of the things I really want to know, because each conversation, like, let's just say we talk about evolution in the age of the earth. You could have an entire college semester on just that.

Hayden Paul [02:20:29] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:30] So I just don't want to get bogged down. I. I wanna. I wanna get a sense for how you deal with some of the biggest problems within Mormonism. And maybe it's compartmentalization Maybe it's. You don't know, or maybe you got better understanding of science or history than we do.

Hayden Paul [02:20:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:46] And I just, I want to take your pulse on those things, because part of what I think is interesting to viewers and listeners is how does anybody believe these days? Like, it's not a surprise that people are leaving the church and organized religion in heavy doses these days.

Hayden Paul [02:21:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:04] So, like, two zillennials, we'll call you guys that are. That are, like, faithful and standing up for faith. How. How is that happening? And by the way, if. If there's people out there that are inspired to believe because of your example, you being able to talk about your faith gives them. Oh, those. Oh, Jake and Hayden talked about that. Like, oh, now you know what I mean? So that's why I want to give you a chance to just answer those questions. And none of these are got your questions. Is that all right?

Jackson Paul [02:21:36] Of course. Yeah. And I think basically the thing is, is because we can talk about all these different branches, but what we really see is the most valuable stuff is the roots of the tree and the base of it. Sure. If that makes sense.

John Dehlin [02:21:49] Sure.

Jackson Paul [02:21:50] And so we might be drawing a

Hayden Paul [02:21:51] lot back to just the roots.

John Dehlin [02:21:53] Oh, yeah. And there may be some general statements you make that take a lot of questions off the, the table. So I'll just start with, like, so, like, age of the earth, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenant says 6,000 years or 7,000 years. Science says billions. Do y' all have a position on that?

Hayden Paul [02:22:11] I think that when it comes to the Genesis account of that we find in the Bible. Right. And talks about six days. And then you take the, the ages of all the patriarchs and things like that. We have to remember what the, the creation account is. It's a vision. And we only know that as Latter Day Saints because we have Moses, one in the pearl of great price. Moses goes up to Mount Sinai, he has his endowment experience, and then he is shown the beginning to the end. And so Genesis is part of that vision. What I will say is that there's not another vision in scripture that is taken as literal history. For example, like the Book of Daniel, it talks about dreams. Yeah, it talks about dreams. Right. And he's. He's having a vision and he sees a man. He sees the rock rolling down. Like, it's not like, oh, this is an account of a historical event. It's same with, like, Lehi's Tree of Life vision. It is a vision and it means something. But we're not like, look, going around, digging in the desert, looking for iron rod and for a large and spacious building, right? And so when it comes to the Genesis account, its purpose is not to tell us a history, is to teach us deep spiritual truths.

John Dehlin [02:23:34] So does this mean you're billions? You're on the billions?

Hayden Paul [02:23:37] I, I, I would say I don't know. Like, I, I don't know. I don't, like, I, I don't, I don't, I guess I don't care that much. Is, is maybe, dad, how old is the earth?

John Dehlin [02:23:49] You would say, I don't know.

Hayden Paul [02:23:50] I don't know. It's real.

John Dehlin [02:23:51] You wouldn't say, science says it's billions of years old?

Hayden Paul [02:23:53] I'd probably say that. Like, science says billions of years old. But we don't know. I don't know.

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:57] And when you're saying the Genesis, are you talking about Noah's Ark, Tara, Babel, all of those are visions that Moses had?

Hayden Paul [02:24:06] No, I'm talking specifically Garden of Eden.

John Dehlin [02:24:10] Okay.

Hayden Paul [02:24:10] Creation account.

John Dehlin [02:24:11] You don't just go, science says billions. So my answer is billions. Is that because you're not as confident with science?

Hayden Paul [02:24:18] I guess I just don't know. I just don't know. I mean, scientific consensus is like, knowledge is like, this is our best theory. I think it's a good theory and I think I've, I've, I'm familiar with it. And so I just don't know. But I don't think it's crazy.

John Dehlin [02:24:34] What about Jack Jackson?

Jackson Paul [02:24:35] Yeah, I mean, I would say I don't know as well, because a lot of things in science, it's true until it's not. And so one thing could be this many years old until new evidence comes out that it's older or not as old.

John Dehlin [02:24:48] So when the Doctrine and Covenant says six or seven thousand years, what do y' all do with that?

Jackson Paul [02:24:52] It says 6,000 years of the Earth's temporal existence. Now, what that specifically means in terms of the existence, the law, the length that this Earth has existed, I don't know exactly. Temporal existence, meaning since man has been on or since. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:25:10] Okay.

Jackson Paul [02:25:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:12] Okay, so what do you all think about evolution? That, that started out as, you know, some type of life, simple life forms, and we've evolved from lower life forms. As humans, we all think about evolution.

Hayden Paul [02:25:30] What I get from the Genesis account is that God created the tabernacles of man. I don't know how he did it, exactly what the details are, but he created the tabernacle of man and it wasn't until he breathed in spirit that it became man. I don't know the details of how that happened, but what I do, what I do believe is that God played a role in the creation of everything.

John Dehlin [02:25:52] So you're open to.

Hayden Paul [02:25:53] Yeah, I'm evolution. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:25:54] Okay.

Jackson Paul [02:25:56] Yeah, similar.

John Dehlin [02:25:57] Okay, so you're not like Bruce Armor conquer, whoever that said, evolution's a theory of the devil. Evolution's evil. You don't, you don't have that perspective?

Jackson Paul [02:26:08] No.

Hayden Paul [02:26:10] No.

John Dehlin [02:26:10] Okay. Okay, cool. So were Adam and Eve. Did they live 6000ish years ago from your perspective?

Hayden Paul [02:26:21] I don't know. I don't care.

John Dehlin [02:26:22] Okay. Were Adam and Eve the first humans or were there humans on the earth before Adam and Eve?

Hayden Paul [02:26:29] I think that there were first humans. There had to have been first humans at some point. I don't, I don't.

John Dehlin [02:26:35] But, like, when we find wall paintings in a cave in Spain from 20,000 years ago, which is before the Bible could have been written. Could those have been humans before the time of Adam and Eve?

Hayden Paul [02:26:50] Well, so when was the Bible written? Like, how old are the stories written

John Dehlin [02:26:55] in the Bible that they couldn't be because of, like you said, the genealogies of the patriarchs. And the Bible gives, like, chronologies that then start getting into actual peoples at some point in Palestine.

Hayden Paul [02:27:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:08] Nobody puts the Bible farther back than about 6,000 years.

Hayden Paul [02:27:11] Yeah. So the, the, when it comes to. So your question is about ages. So you're, you're basing all this on ages of patriarchs in the Bible? That's the thing.

John Dehlin [02:27:18] The Bible does have tons. I mean, I'm with you that the Bible has a ton of, of metaphors and stories and myths and dreams and visions, but it also claims a geography and it claims a history and it claims a timeline. And so you, you know, you can't just say it's all dreams and metaphor and myth, because you also believe that literally Lehi came from Joseph, who came from Jacob, who came from, you know, all the way back to Adam. And then there's ages that they gave to these people. And of course, it doesn't go back farther than 6,000 years. So what do you do? And again, you can say, I don't know, I haven't thought about it. Yeah, but what do you do with evidence that humans were painting on caves 20,000 years ago?

Hayden Paul [02:28:08] Yeah. So, like, and that's it. That's a difficult thing about it. So you have through Genesis. So, like, right here, let's just get through, like, the Noah. Let's get through Noah Right here. Boom. So this is like the end of the Noah story right here. You see this, everybody?

John Dehlin [02:28:28] No. Yeah, yeah.

Hayden Paul [02:28:29] Like, so what you have is, from what is claimed the beginning until the Noah story, you have this much, and then you have this much for the rest.

John Dehlin [02:28:39] Yeah.

Hayden Paul [02:28:39] And so that's, that's why, like, I don't. I think about it often, but my. My answer is I don't know the exact. So are you familiar with what gematria is?

John Dehlin [02:28:53] No.

Hayden Paul [02:28:54] So in Hebrew, letters are also numbers. Right. And so a lot of times, numbers, they translate into words and things like that. So when it comes, there's. There's people that have theorized that the. The ages of the patriarchs actually correspond to Hebrew words which are descriptive of the patriarchs. And so I guess what I'm saying is that the.

John Dehlin [02:29:18] You're saying maybe the old testament is 20,000 years old, and then maybe Adam and Eve live 50,000 years ago.

Hayden Paul [02:29:25] Who. Like, what I'm saying is, I don't. I don't know. I don't know about.

John Dehlin [02:29:31] Yeah, you're saying you're open.

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:32] That's what you're saying, right? Because in seminary, I was given this chart when I was going to seminary.

John Dehlin [02:29:38] You've seen it, right?

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:39] Yeah, I think everyone has.

Hayden Paul [02:29:40] Yeah. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:41] And he. You know, I was taught that Adam

Hayden Paul [02:29:43] lived 6,000 years ago because the Doctrine

John Dehlin [02:29:46] and Covenant says that, and Joseph Smith taught that. And even Russell Nelson recently said that. So, you know, I'm not asking this question, like, to nitpick or is it gotcha? Like, that's what I was taught. And you're basically saying, even though Joseph Smith wrote in the Doctrine and Covenants, Russell Nelson today asserts it, you don't necessarily believe it or care that it's in the Doctrine and Covenants or that Russell M. Nelson asserts it. And I'm not trying to. Again, gotcha. You against the Scriptures or Russell Nelson? Yeah, I literally just want to know if you thought about it and how you reconcile it. What I hear you saying is, is you're just saying the Old Testament isn't history. And it could. It could be a lot of things, and you're open to whatever it is the timelines are.

Hayden Paul [02:30:30] Well, what I'm saying is that, like, our Western idea of history being a list of facts and dates is not necessarily what our ancient ancestors looked at history for. It's not the reason they recorded history. The reason our ancient ancestors recorded history was to. To. To record stories that had moral meanings to them. And so when it comes to the exact details What I'm saying is one, I, I don't care that much because I, I care more about the moral meanings of, of the Scriptures. And, and two, I don't think that that's what they were trying to do. Even with the Book of Mormon. It says, they say explicitly Mormons or Nephi says, hey, I have one record that's a history and this is a record that is having to do with the spiritual nature of things. And so what that means is like I don't even, I, I don't know the exact details or to me a history class isn't going to bring salvation to me.

John Dehlin [02:31:30] I get it, I get it. So you asked about me the way my mind. So I've always like, I still haven't tried alcohol, I still haven't tried marijuana. Like I believe in being faithful to your spouse and like all the Mormon things, I'm still very, very Mormon. I do drink coffee and iced tea. But, but like I'm with you on living righteous, good, healthy lives. Not that I'm perfect, but like I, I'm with you on that. The way my mind worked because you asked me about.

Hayden Paul [02:31:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:00] Whether I just discarded faith. What my mind did is they're like, wait a minute. For 20, 30 years I paid attention to seminary. I read the Doctrine and Covenants. I saw the 6,000 years. I heard Bruce R. McConkie or whoever, or Ezetab Benson, whoever it was, call evolution one of the seven deadly heresies. I read Joseph Fielding Smith's Doctrines of Salvation where he said 6,000 years. It was in the seminary chart. Now either the Scriptures got it wrong and Joseph Smith got it wrong and Bruce Armament Conky got it wrong and Russell Nelson gets it wrong and they're getting stuff wrong right or science is wrong. And what I'm hearing you say is, well, what do you do with the Doctrine and Covenants or Joseph Smith or Bruce I'm a conkey. Like how, how do you reconcile Mormon scripture or Mormon prophets with what you're saying? That you don't really care about that part of the Doctrine and Covenants or that part of what Joseph Smith said or that part of what Russell Nelson says today? How do you think about scriptures and prophet in a way to where you're comfortable discarding what they say. Or devaluing it or ignoring it.

Jackson Paul [02:33:21] The functionality I see of the modern day prophet and the restored church is to administer the ordinances of salvation.

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:30] And

Jackson Paul [02:33:32] with, you know, those statements that you're talking about, it could be true, it could be not. What I see in the Scriptures is cursed be the man that put his trust in the arm of flesh. And so at the very end of the day, I'm going to focus on, like I said, the roots of the matter at hand. And that is building a foundation on Jesus Christ. And so, you know, there's that saying that in the Catholic Church they hold a theology, that they look at the Pope as infallible. Right. But no Catholic, I haven't met a Catholic that actually believes that. But the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we don't hold our prophets to be infallible. But a lot of times no one actually really believes that. And so where they're speaking as prophets, where they're speaking as men, I, I look at the collective witness of the prophets and what I am most concerned about is my salvation, right, and that of my family as well. And so that, that, that's how I look at things in terms of precedence, of, of worrying about it and, and contributing a lot of time and energy into thinking about that. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [02:34:57] It totally does. I totally get that. It's a very different type of Mormonism than the Mormonism that we were raised in. Like, it's called the Doctrine and Covenants. What you're talking about is the covenants and the ordinances. But I grew up in a church where doctrine mattered. Like Ruso McConkie published a book, what was the book called?

Hayden Paul [02:35:18] Mormon Doctrine.

John Dehlin [02:35:19] Mormon Doctrine. Joseph Fielding Smith as prophet published a three volume series. You know what it was called? Doctrines of Doctrines of Salvation. So I grew up in a church where doctrine mattered and what was said in the Scriptures mattered. And by the way, if you stood up and said, I'm going to just, you know, prophets are good because they give us ordinances. But like, if it's in the Scriptures and I, I don't like it, I'm gonna ignore it. Or if the prophet said it, he's just a man. I didn't grow up in a church where you were allowed that. I grew up in a church where if I said what you just said, you'd get excommunicated. Right? So I don't know. No, I can talk to all about that. I got excommunicated and I watched people get excommunicated for saying that the prophets were wrong or for saying that they were discarding parts of Scripture. So what I just heard you say is the doctrine other than like Jesus lives and baptism and repentance and faith, you know, that's, that's doctrine that you care about. But then if it's other doctrine, it's. You can discard it because it's not really important. It's kind of like Jesus and ordinances and kindness and nothing else really matters as much. That's kind of what I took away from what I heard. Now, tell me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying.

Hayden Paul [02:36:47] I guess what. And maybe it's just a reframe. There are tangential doctrines and then there are, like, there is the branches of the tree. And the branches of the tree is where we're reaching out into the, I don't know, phrase or realm or it's things.

John Dehlin [02:37:03] But you're saying prophets reach out into the. I don't know. Because everything I'm telling you was written by literally men sustained as prophet seers

Hayden Paul [02:37:11] and revelators, not just, I think prophets are asking questions and then trying to find answers. 100.

John Dehlin [02:37:17] So in your worldview. And this will, this will shorten this interview a lot. Prophets can write stuff in Scripture or say stuff in General Conference. That's wrong. And you're okay just acknowledging that?

Hayden Paul [02:37:31] I think.

John Dehlin [02:37:32] What, what keeps you from just saying yes? Yes. What keeps you from just saying yes?

Hayden Paul [02:37:37] Because I'm not sure if I agree with what you're saying. I want to be very careful with, with, with what we're saying.

John Dehlin [02:37:45] So if Russell McConkie lists evolution as one of the seven deadly heresies while he's ordained as a prophet. Syrian Revelator, you guys just said you're okay if evolution's true. It's not. I'm not making this up. Deadly heresy. Prophets here in Revelator said that you either kind of accept that or you don't.

Evolving Doctrine and Prophetic Authority

Jackson Paul [02:38:05] Well, I mean, from his perspective, maybe he's writing because he sees that that is the man's God that they're creating, that he's saying that it's one of the seven deadly heresies. Because a lot of the proponents for that theory are atheists and say this is, this is the explanation. We don't need God to explain our existence. Possibly that that's his.

Gerardo Sumano [02:38:30] I could be wrong. But if I, if I remember, the context of the talk was liberal professors at BYU teaching evolution and not concentrating on doctrine. So he went and he's, I mean, to your, your point, this was not general conference. He gave this at a byu, BYU devotional. But the context was that there were liberal professors who were, in his view, straying away from the true doctrine and teaching science. And he needed to put them in their, in their place. But I mean, it, it is clear that the, the, him and he took this, the ideas from his father in law, Joseph Fielding Smith, who were completely against evolution. I mean, Russell M. Nelson has said that, you know, evolution, it was not a thing.

John Dehlin [02:39:23] And who believed the Earth was 6,000 years old or 7,000 years old? Because that's in the Doctrine and Covenants. End of story, end of conversation.

Hayden Paul [02:39:30] Right? Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I, I don't, I haven't got the, the feeling from current prophets, seers and revelators that because BYU does teach evolution now, and they did that. Yeah, and they did. Then I don't get the, the feeling that that is anathema anymore and that, that I think we're just. There are so many things that we don't know. And I think Joseph Smith, he acknowledged that as well, that the, the restoration that we were receiving. I mean, it's one of the articles of faith. Right. The twelfth article of faith. What is it? How does it go again? It's been a while since I've done my articles of faith. It is, we believe that God has revealed that he will reveal or believe

John Dehlin [02:40:33] all that God has revealed, all that

Hayden Paul [02:40:35] he and that he will reveal.

John Dehlin [02:40:37] He will reveal many great and important

Hayden Paul [02:40:39] things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. Yeah. So what that means is that we don't have it. We don't have it all. And so we work with what we have. And if what we have is the Bible and the years in it, and then that's what the prophets are going off of, then okay, but, but why

John Dehlin [02:40:54] not just say, yeah, prophets make mistakes, prophets get it wrong. And the Scriptures sometimes reflect the errors of the prophets who are fallible, and just say, yeah, prophets of Scripture sometimes get it wrong. Why not? Is that because you've been conditioned to never criticize the brethren or conditioned to have fear that if you criticize the brethren, you'll get in trouble?

Hayden Paul [02:41:14] No, I'm not afraid of getting in trouble. I, I live in the soup of I don't know. And so, like, I'm not going to criticize because I don't have a better answer than I'm not saying. I know evolution. This is exactly how it worked out.

Gerardo Sumano [02:41:29] Yeah.

Hayden Paul [02:41:29] And so if I don't have a stance and I don't think, I mean, maybe you feel like you know all the answers to these questions. Right. Then, then I can make a statement about. Yeah, I think that they're wrong, but I don't know. So who am I? I'm not saying that science is wrong and I'M also not saying the prophets are wrong. I don't know. And so I, I'm leaving space until I figure out for myself.

Gerardo Sumano [02:41:53] Yeah.

Hayden Paul [02:41:53] Does that not.

Gerardo Sumano [02:41:54] I think it makes sense with evolution. Right? Like, I mean, someday size may change, I don't know. And then find something out.

John Dehlin [02:42:01] And I'll just say, because you asked me, my beliefs, whether I just abandoned faith. One of the hardest parts about, let's say the critics of us is that they don't seem to want to understand why we think or feel or believe or do the things we do. They just want to assume we're evil or want to take people's faith away or that we want to destroy the church or that we hate the church.

Hayden Paul [02:42:26] What do you want to do?

Jackson Paul [02:42:27] And that's not what we want to do either. Why we, you know, went out to lunch with you that one time and we're asking you these questions.

John Dehlin [02:42:33] Yeah, yeah.

Jackson Paul [02:42:33] What do you believe?

John Dehlin [02:42:34] I appreciate it. So my quick answer to that would be. I grew up in a church where doctrine mattered, where, where if a prophet said it, you were to believe it. And I, and I was taught that the earth was 6,000 years old, that avenue were the first humans, that the global flood was literally covering the whole earth, all of it, all the literality of it, and that it was all literal. And that if you had to choose between the literality of the doctrine as taught by the church and the scriptures and the prophets and what science teaches you, that you throw science out every single time, that science is prideful, science is flawed, science is, is, is carnal and even there to tempt you and to make you want to lose faith. And so I was raised with sort of like it's either or. Whenever there's a conflict, it's either or. And that doctrine really mattered and that if a prophet said it, it really mattered. So you can't just go, oh, Bruce Armakonki said it, but that was, he's just a product of his time. Oh, Brigham Young was super racist, but he's a product of his time. No, it's like he's a prophet. He said it, you believe it. It's in doctrines of salvation, it's in Mormon doctrine, it's taught over the pulpit. You believe it. And now you just have to deal with the fact that science is out there. And at some point, if enough of those things start stacking up and you start seeing the church change, right, change its views on contraception, change its views on abortion, change its views on the origins of same sex sexuality, Change the temple ceremony. Change the scriptures, right? Change. Change so many things to, you know, change the title page of the Book of Mormon. Once DNA reveals that Native Americans probably, like, there was a day where there was no question about Lamanites. Lamanites was any brown person who had ancestors that come from North, Central or South America or Polynesia. That was just it. And the, and the, The Lamanite generation was like the young ambassadors at byu. And they get Native Americans, Latin Americans to dance because they're freaking Lamanites, because that's what the Book of Mormon said, that they covered all the land from the top of North America down to the tip of South America. Lamanites. There was no question. Now, now in 2022. Oh, no, no, you. You've all been understanding it wrong. The Lamanites and the Nephites lived in a tiny little area probably somewhere in Central America. Most of the people in North, Central and South America were not Lamanites, had nothing to do with the church. They come from Asia and, you know, like, they've changed the story, and now they don't have the laymanite generation anymore. And now they're not willing to publicly call people laymanites. They do it when they go down to visit people in Central South America, but, like, in public, they don't do it anymore. So when you see the church change enough in response to science, then you start realizing, oh, like anytime science and the church hit a conflict, the church retreats. And then he starts saying, oh, so they're kind of. They're kind of like changing doctrine and theology based on the social pressures and evidence. And that's when you start saying, well, then what can we believe? What can we hold on to? Like, if it's just be good, if it's just be kind, if it's just love, people be a Christian. Well, you don't have to be a Mormon to be a Christian. You don't have to be a Mormon to be kind to people. You don't have to be a Mormon to get baptized. You don't have to be a Mormon to get confirmed. You don't have to be a Mormon to spread the gospel of Christ. So the reasons to be Mormon over time have shrunk as the church has devalued and distanced itself from core Mormon doctrine as science has won. So that's. That's literally the mindset that I come from, in part. What do you guys think about that?

Hayden Paul [02:46:40] I think it's important to reframe what you just said there and said the reasons for you to be Mormon based on your value hierarchy of important doctrines has shrunk over time.

John Dehlin [02:46:50] Where did I get that? Where did I get.

Hayden Paul [02:46:53] I don't know, from the Church.

John Dehlin [02:46:55] Like, the Church taught me what to value doctrines of salvation. Where did I, I bought that on my mission. I read that on my mission. Mormon doctrine. The Church published it. Like, like the Church taught me to care about doctrine.

Hayden Paul [02:47:08] And I, I would argue that it still, it still does teach you how to.

John Dehlin [02:47:12] For you, only the core doctrine, not the, you know, for us, for us it was all of it. For you it's like, well, it's really only Jesus and faith and repentance and kindness and baptism. And for me, it was much bigger than I was supposed to care about.

Hayden Paul [02:47:27] No, and it is much bigger than that. Like I, Than your characterization that you're giving right there. So real quick, what would your, what is your thought on. How did you conceptualize it when you were a member of the Church? The twelfth article of faith about that there is more to received. How did you, what did that mean to you at that time? How would it be received?

John Dehlin [02:47:50] I mean, yeah, I wanted new revelations. I thought the Doctrine and Covenants would be expanded, that we would have more mysteries of, of godliness revealed through prophets and added to Scripture or the sealed portions of the Book of Mormon would eventually be unsealed and we would get more wisdom and light and truth and knowledge. Not like, oh, polygamy was. Polygamy was a requirement for exaltation, but now we'll take it away because the government, like, got after us or oh, blacks were denied the priesthood because it was doctrine. Oh my gosh, our tax exempt status is being threatened. And it's embarrassing. Like, that's not revelation, that's retraction of bad doctrine. And when you see the Church retract enough, not only are you not seeing the expansive revelations that you thought the Church would offer, you're seeing it retract based on social pressure. But yeah, I wanted just more, more mysteries of, of godliness and of exaltation unfolded, which I haven't actually seen a lot of new doctrine or theology or revelation other than undoing past revelation. So that's what I was hoping for.

Hayden Paul [02:49:07] So what, what was your conceptualization of. So I guess what I'm saying is so there are, there are different conceptual, different ways that we conceptualize or rectify or synthesize the revealed doctrines and then science and things like that. And what you're saying, what I'm hearing you say is that revelation has to only come from this side. It can't come from the science side. There can't be revelations from God, can't be scientific revelations that then help synthesize to a more real understanding of scripture. So it has to be just from.

Gerardo Sumano [02:49:44] I think there's a difference between, okay, let's. There's this new science discovery and let's embrace it as in Mormonism versus we're gonna call out science and say science is bad and that's wrong and evolution is wrong. And I'll tell you another one. In interracial marriage, it's against doctrine, and we're gonna sign documents by the first presidency and saying the international marriage is against doctrine. And you can marry people of, of different races, especially people from Africa.

Hayden Paul [02:50:14] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:15] And we're gonna tell you that if you do that, you're gonna lose your temple. Recommend you white person marrying a black person, you're also cursed, and you're. And your children are also going to be cursed, and they're not going to be able to get the temple blessings or, you know, or have the priesthood. And you cannot be sealed and go. Go to heaven with your family forever, because these people are, you know, doomed to be servants in the.

John Dehlin [02:50:39] In the hereafter and, and separated from their families.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:44] And. And then, you know, just forgetting about all that because now, like John said, it's embarrassing. And civil rights, even though we fought as prophecies and revelators, we. The civil rights movement was a communist plot to overthrow the government, and we ask you to, you know, fight against it now. Okay, well, the civil rights movement passed, and now it's embarrassing because all America is uniting again against segregation, even though we told you segregation was from God. And so now we're just gonna forget about it. And, and that's fine. Like, I, I think that's a. Is. It's just different from what you're saying, which is let's embrace, you know, I don't know, transgender people. I think politically it's a mess. I think a lot of. I think the science. Science hasn't given us a lot of answers about what, what's happening with transgender people. Okay. Let's. Let's embrace what science is telling us. Let's give new revelation about that versus, you know, let's, let's create a policy so that they have chaperones to go to the bathroom with them. You know, I don't. So I think you're talking about this idealistic idea of Mormonism embracing science, but it. They fight at first, and then once it's embarrassing. They, they, they're, they're forced to embrace it.

John Dehlin [02:52:16] Yeah. Like, I was taught that dinosaur bones were put in the earth.

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:20] Me too.

John Dehlin [02:52:22] By Satan, to tempt us not to believe. And I was taught that by, you know, again, prophet sees and revelators. Like, and now, now we don't teach that anymore. I mean, I guess what, what was created in us was a crisis of confidence in prophetic teachings and in scriptural teachings. Once every time science in the church butted heads, science ended up winning or social justice ended up winning. Right. And the church just kept retreating. You live 54 years, 55 years, and you see the church retreat, retreat, retreat with polygamy, retreat with racism, retreat with black people, retreat with the origins of homosexuality. Like, retreat on whether women can work outside the home. Like, there's so many ways the church has just retreated, retreated, retreated. At some point you just realize, wait, they're just caving to social pressure.

Gerardo Sumano [02:53:20] Have you seen the video Elder Holland, when he talks about how culture and, and societies here and the church is here. Have you seen that? And then society moves here and then the church moves here. I think he gives it away right there. I mean, it's not the church receiving revelation. Well, let's see ahead and not embarrass ourselves by taking this hard line positions right now and then look horrible when people look back in history of what we did and then try to hide and pretend it never happened. It's. I think Elder Holland was clear that the church is always catching up to society.

Temple Changes and Institutional Revelation

Hayden Paul [02:54:01] Well, so my question would be. Oh, sorry, I keep nailing this camera. I hope I didn't knock you off now. You're still good. So my question would be, how, how would you expect a religious institution to learn? How do you expect learning to take place? If, if there aren't questions being raised by the culture, then how can, how, how can a religious institution or new revelation be received?

John Dehlin [02:54:29] Well, again, I was taught with a very literal.

Hayden Paul [02:54:32] They also haven't moved on everything. There, There have been things that they have, that social pressures have, have pushed towards. They have not gone that way. Right.

John Dehlin [02:54:41] Yeah, but like, but like, do you know what the temple ceremony was like when I went through?

Hayden Paul [02:54:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:54:47] Do you know why they changed that?

Hayden Paul [02:54:49] The. I, I don't know and I don't think you do either.

John Dehlin [02:54:54] Yeah, I do.

Hayden Paul [02:54:54] So if you absolutely. Do you talk to them and ask.

John Dehlin [02:54:56] Oh, I absolutely know why they changed.

Hayden Paul [02:54:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:54:58] Why did they surveyed members and. Well, number one, members were super uncomfortable with the throat slitting and the disemboweling but also an evangelical organization led by Rod Decker created a book called the God Makers. Yeah, that. That basically told the whole world what was going on in the temples, including an accompanying video where they were reenacting the temple ceremonies and the God Makers. This movie sweeps through evangelical Christianity and in all these wards and stakes throughout the south, predominantly we're having to deal with like seminars, weekend seminar, Katy First Baptist Church, Mormons and other cults. And all of a sudden it becomes public knowledge what we're doing inside the temple. So yeah, they took away the penalties and the oaths because they were violent, barbaric Masonic relics. And they were. Became embarrassing. That's why there's no other. Why else would they do it? If you think that that just happened coincidentally, not influenced by the God Makers or social pressure or surveys or member surveys.

Hayden Paul [02:56:05] So the presentation of the endowment changes

John Dehlin [02:56:10] the. The penalties. That was part of the covenants. The penalties.

Hayden Paul [02:56:16] Well, there's still every covenant there. Well, there still are. There still is a penalty. The presentation of that penalty is different. I mean, you haven't been to the temple for a while, but.

John Dehlin [02:56:25] No, I keep up with what's going on. But I. Okay, what you're doing is you're sort of telling me how it's been justified. The changes have been justified. When I went through, the temple was revealed by God. So like. And it stayed that way 150 years. So why would. Can't you see why someone would go, why would God change it in response to a movie that a bunch of evangelicals put together, but let it stay there for 150 years?

Gerardo Sumano [02:56:54] This point was something that was really, I think, what started my faith crisis personally. The temple changes in 2019. Because I was on, like I told you, Mexico City on my mission, where we would constantly bash the Catholic Church for changing the ordinances of the priesthood. And that's what took the Catholic Church or the Church of Christ going to apostasy. They changed the form of baptism. They changed the form of giving from

John Dehlin [02:57:20] 8 years old to infant baptism.

Gerardo Sumano [02:57:23] And then I discovered that Joseph Smith taught that the endowment ceremony should not. Should never be changed.

Hayden Paul [02:57:32] He actually told Brigham Young when he was systematizing, he says, this isn't perfect being revealed.

Gerardo Sumano [02:57:39] Okay. And then. But then it's the same idea, right? Like we're changing the way that we do the, the rituals, which is what we. What I criticize for two years the Catholic Church from doing.

Hayden Paul [02:57:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:54] So your question is like, how could a church learn and grow based on new information that's provided, or how do

Hayden Paul [02:58:03] you expect a church to receive revelation? What does that, that process look like to you?

John Dehlin [02:58:07] The, the minimum expectation I have, if somebody is literally talking to God and Jesus, which is what I was taught. The prophets talk to God and Jesus.

Hayden Paul [02:58:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:15] Not ambiguous. They. It's like, oh, here's my pen. Moses is sitting there. Oh, God's giving this revelation. Let me write it down. Like, that's Mormonism 101 is God speaks to man through prophets. Prophets speak to God like Joseph Smith, and they write it down. So the minimum I would expect is that when a scripture gets written or a prophetic utterance gets made, that it's true, that it's real, that it is valid. And in. A prophet who claims to be God's mouthpiece would never say anything that wasn't true. That would have to be changed later because of new information given. Does that make sense now? If he says love one another. Yeah. But if he says the age of the earth is 6 or 7,000 years old, a prophet. God would never tell a prophet to write that. And a prophet would never write that because a prophet would only write what God told him to write. So why would. So why would scripture ever need to change? And why would a prophet. Why would you ever have to make excuses for what a prophet said? They would only speak truth.

Hayden Paul [02:59:23] So, so you're. So how I understand is your conceptualization of revelatory experience means, like God is speaking words to a prophet and then that's what he's writing.

John Dehlin [02:59:34] It's what I was taught.

Hayden Paul [02:59:35] Who taught you that?

John Dehlin [02:59:36] My. The Church. Prophets, seers, revelators, doctrines of salvation, Mormon doctrine, my seminary teachers, my bishops, the church education system. My indoctrination into Mormonism taught me that. That when a prophet speaks, he's speaking for God. And you don't question it and you don't disbelieve it and you don't ever say you don't believe it and you don't ever criticize a prophet. You just believe when the prophet has spoken, the thinking is done. That's what I was taught.

Hayden Paul [03:00:06] So. So when Paul says that we see through a glass darkly, that's what a liberal Mormon.

John Dehlin [03:00:11] That's why when I was growing up, that's what a sunstone Mormon would say. They would quote that scripture to justify faithlessness and veering from the darkness doctrine. The Symposium. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:24] You're not supposed to go to.

John Dehlin [03:00:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, like, like the, the. That would be the teachings of man mingled with scripture. Right. The invoke invocation of that scripture is like how you justify disbelieving prophetic. The words of the prophets. You're basically a sunstone Mormon. Now, if you're quoting that to me, how I was raised as a Mormon. So one big difference between us is we were raised in different churches.

Hayden Paul [03:00:51] But you're. But yet you are criticizing the current church based on your outdated experience with the church. And also just.

John Dehlin [03:01:04] I don't think of myself as a critic of the church. I know that that probably sounds ridiculous to you. What I'm saying to you right now is like, how do I deal with how I was raised, what I was taught, and then all these changes and all this harm that's been caused. It's not like I'm sitting around going, let me criticize the modern church. It's more like, what happened to me. What happened to me, Right? How did I get excommunicated? I was, I was more faithful to you two. I never tried alcohol. I never. I didn't masturbate before I was married. Like, I was in it, bros. I was in it. I didn't look at porn before I was married. Right. I didn't do that stuff. Like, I was committed. I was, you know, I was as devout of a missionary as you could be. How did I end up getting excommunicated? It's because I believed what those dudes taught me. And then when I learned that they kept changing and learned that science conflicted with what they're saying and the Book of Mormon didn't. Didn't. Wasn't a historical document, that it had historical problems, that the science proved the Book of Mormon false. Then I'm like, what do I do with this? That's what that. And I'm just saying, help me. If you've got answers, help me. I'll rejoin if you've got good answers. Like, I'm not sitting around trying to hurt the church and criticize the church. I'm sitting here trying to deal with how I was raised and what the church has become and how to deal with what I've learned and to make it all work.

Hayden Paul [03:02:36] Hurt. Yeah, I, I think. And everything that we've talked about up to this point, I would say is outside of. And I, I know you don't like this conception of it of, of like the core doctrines that were revealed through the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So, like, for example, the conceptualization of God. What. What is your. So what is your conceptualization of God?

Gerardo Sumano [03:03:02] Do you.

Hayden Paul [03:03:03] Wait, do you believe in it?

John Dehlin [03:03:04] God, well, that's just, I like what Mormonism taught me to believe is that God was a man with 10 fingers and 10 toes, a beard, an exalted former human, right, who probably has multiple wives because he lives all the fullness of the gospel, which includes doctrine and covenants 132 and the new and everlasting covenant, which includes polygamy. And like, if you're asking me, and, and who's all, all knowing and all powerful but also all loving. Right? And it's hard to believe in that God right now knowing that. I don't think I like polygamy. The church seems to be distancing itself from polygamy. Most Mormons don't believe in polygamy anymore. I don't like the fact that there's a mother in heaven, but she's silenced, that she can't talk. There's probably mothers in heaven in Mormon theology, and all of them are silenced. And I have a problem with, like, if God's leading the Mormon Church and God's telling the Mormon Church that this guy right next to me is evil because he is living, he's loving who he wants to love. All of that flows to the Mormon God. And I'm like that, that's not a God. I want to worship a God that's saying that my buddy Gerardo here is, is living evilly. So, so, like, my view of God is poisoned or tainted by the, by the, the, by what the Mormon Church taught me about God.

Hayden Paul [03:04:40] Well, that, well, even that conceptualization of God that you just put forward isn't, isn't I, I, I would say it isn't the correct conceptualization of God presented by the.

John Dehlin [03:04:51] Well, who are you to, I say this respectfully?

Hayden Paul [03:04:53] Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [03:04:54] Who are you to tell me what the right conceptual. It's like I was going with Spencer W. Kimball, Ezra Taft Benson, David O. McKay, Gordon B. Hinckley, Joseph Fielding Smith. That's who told me how to believe in God and who God was. Now you, you know, Hayden Paul, are telling me that I, I formed the wrong perception of God. Who are you to tell me that compared to those dudes?

Hayden Paul [03:05:23] Well, I'm not, I, I didn't say I what I said. And yeah, maybe I, I am wrong in saying that. What I'm saying is that every single person has their own conceptualization of God to some degree. And I do believe that that is what the purpose of all of the ordinances, the temple and all of this is for us, to everyone on an individual level, to get rid of all the false gods that we create, the false image of God that we create and come to know the real God by personal experience. And so the even, even like what you're talking about with Gerardo, that you have this idea that God is making some sort of arbitrary law that says, oh, Gerardo is living in sin. That isn't the conceptualization of God as presented by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [03:06:17] It's not?

Hayden Paul [03:06:17] No. The conceptualization of God is that the commandments that God can cease to be God. It says it in the, in the Book of Mormon, in the Book of Alma. And so what that means is that God is not even creating these standards by which you. That you have a problem with.

Gerardo Sumano [03:06:33] Did God create this standard of interracial marriage being against doctrine of the church and people losing their temple status if they married a black person? Because that. That was part of what the prophets taught.

Hayden Paul [03:06:46] Was that something I would say with the change? That I would say no. I would say no, that wasn't.

Gerardo Sumano [03:06:50] So they were wrong.

Hayden Paul [03:06:51] Yeah. Well, Bruce Armakaki himself, like Jackson.

John Dehlin [03:06:55] Yeah.

Jackson Paul [03:06:55] Obviously with further light and knowledge. What we're trying to say is with that article of faith, is that for that new revelation to come forth, previous one, maybe. I don't know. I've never been a prophet before. Maybe it was correct at its time and that it needed to change. But obviously if it did change, some form somewhere was incorrect and they recognized that. When Bruce Armaconke said that we were speaking with the limited light and knowledge that we had and that. Yeah. That new. A flood of new light and knowledge has been brought forth and new revelation.

Gerardo Sumano [03:07:32] We're talking about a commandment, the commandment of not marrying someone, not mixing. Not mixing seed. Yeah. You're saying that could have been wrong?

Hayden Paul [03:07:42] Well, Bruce Arma Conkey himself says it's wrong.

Jackson Paul [03:07:45] Yes.

Hayden Paul [03:07:45] Well, the church itself said it was

John Dehlin [03:07:47] wrong after he said it was right for decades.

Hayden Paul [03:07:50] Yes. Because that's. That's called receiving new revelation.

Gerardo Sumano [03:07:53] What.

John Dehlin [03:07:54] So that's. I actually. No, I actually.

Gerardo Sumano [03:07:56] No, John, he did not say it was wrong because actually when the priesthood ban was lifted along with it in the desert news, they. The church released a statement saying that interracial marriage was still wrong. So when he was. When Brother McConkey went to give that talk, he was talking specifically about the blacks, about blacks never receiving the priesthood in this.

John Dehlin [03:08:20] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:08:21] Before all white people when they would receive.

Hayden Paul [03:08:23] So the principle can apply though. Do you understand? Like the principle of revelation can still apply to other things as well.

John Dehlin [03:08:29] But don't y' all see that you're basically unwilling to just say they were wrong?

Hayden Paul [03:08:34] No, they were wrong.

John Dehlin [03:08:36] They were wrong.

Hayden Paul [03:08:37] And he admits that. He admits that he was wrong.

John Dehlin [03:08:40] So y' all believe that the prophets teachings around intermatial, interracial marriage were wrong?

Hayden Paul [03:08:46] No, they say it was wrong because

John Dehlin [03:08:48] they believe they were wrong. Do you believe?

Hayden Paul [03:08:50] Yes, I believe they were wrong as well.

Jackson Paul [03:08:51] They were wrong, yes, because they said they were wrong upon receiving further light and knowledge.

Gerardo Sumano [03:08:56] Again, I don't think they said that, but. Because by the time Brother McConkey said that, the church had just barely released the statement saying interracial marriage was wrong.

Hayden Paul [03:09:05] But even just the change of the policy itself. Yeah, is. Is that not.

Gerardo Sumano [03:09:09] But I see what you're saying.

Hayden Paul [03:09:11] Is that not showing, like, hey, this isn't an eternal truth.

John Dehlin [03:09:16] Would y' all get up and bear your testimony or speak in church and state a time when the prophets, Mormon prophets, got it wrong. Would y'.

Gerardo Sumano [03:09:28] All.

John Dehlin [03:09:29] Have you ever done that? Or would you ever do that?

Jackson Paul [03:09:31] I see it far more necessary in the world to proclaim the truthfulness of the atonement of Jesus Christ. That, that, that, that. That's a weird question to me. That is a weird question.

Hayden Paul [03:09:43] I would never go and bear my testimony about the prophet being wrong.

John Dehlin [03:09:46] Or you're teaching an elders quorum or a Sunday school and you're teaching about what it means to be a prophet. Would you ever teach that prophets sometimes get it wrong and give examples of when they have gotten it wrong just to help illustrate that prophets aren't perfect and sometimes they get it wrong as part of a lesson?

Hayden Paul [03:10:09] Yeah, I would. I would talk about. I would talk about the. What it means to be a prophet and how, how profits build on top of each other.

John Dehlin [03:10:21] You see that you're hesitant to say that in a. In a public setting with other Mormons, you would ever want to say that a prophet's wrong? Because don't you agree in our culture, you just don't ever say that in front of other believers.

Hayden Paul [03:10:33] Well, it's not even that. It's. I'm not so certain I'm right. Does that make sense? Like, this is. This is a. This is a huge difference. Is I feel like. And correct me if I'm wrong. You're sitting in a chair of certainty, and I'm. I'm here and I'm. I'm curious. I don't know exactly the inner working details of how the Brethren work and, and come up with policy. Well, actually, no.

Gerardo Sumano [03:10:58] You can read the Matt Harris book Second Class Saints. And he explains in detail the history about the priesthood band and how the brethren since 1950, more than 20 years before they reversed it, they already knew it was not based in scripture, it was no. Based on revelation.

John Dehlin [03:11:16] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:11:16] And they just kept it because there were some hardliners, apostles who they couldn't convince to reverse it.

Hayden Paul [03:11:22] Okay, so that is a perspective. I don't know, like, do you have the first 10? Like, this is where I stand is like, I don't have like the first hand knowledge of all of this stuff. And so what are the things that we can test? And the things that I can test are the things in the scriptures I can test the basic cosmology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The basic cosmology is that we are co. Eternal, uncreated beings with God. That is radical and that is completely different to the rest of the Christian world. And that is something. That is something I can't. I'm not gonna give up. Right. Like, so this is why I have a frustration that from the very beginning we're like starting at the branches, trying to move down to the roots, where you can't even understand or even conceptualize the idea of the branches unless you have an understanding of the roots. But you like to live in the area of branches instead of, instead of addressing.

John Dehlin [03:12:27] So just as an exercise in empathy. Yeah, you just said I like to live in the area of the branches. Given all I've told you about my history with the church, do you want to rephrase that based on.

Hayden Paul [03:12:40] In this conversation? From the questions that you've asked. We've been living in the branches.

John Dehlin [03:12:46] And where did I get that from? Where did I get a focus on the branches from? Where did that come from? I don't know.

Jackson Paul [03:12:53] I haven't lived your life, brother.

John Dehlin [03:12:54] Oh, I already told you where.

Hayden Paul [03:12:55] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:12:56] It's. It came from the church education system.

Gerardo Sumano [03:12:58] Okay.

Hayden Paul [03:12:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:59] From what I was taught in my religion classes at BYU. What I was taught in Sunday school for 50 years. What I was taught by reading books written by prophets, seers and revelators.

Hayden Paul [03:13:11] Yeah. There's thousands of people that grew up in that same education system that have that got that ex. Not the exact. Because everyone's situation is different, but got that same thing. And they're not sitting in the same position that you are.

John Dehlin [03:13:25] Yeah.

Jackson Paul [03:13:26] So what's different?

Hayden Paul [03:13:26] And so what's different? Like, do you.

John Dehlin [03:13:32] What's different?

Hayden Paul [03:13:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:13:34] Why are people. Are you saying why have some people stayed in the church?

Hayden Paul [03:13:37] Yeah. So how could people have the same, they grew up in the same. So we, we don't have that luxury of growing up, you know, in the 80s. And, and to be able to understand, to be able to understand where you're at. What I do know is I, I, we have a lot of friends and, and people that we trust and love that grew up in that same place, and they aren't coming to the exact same conclusions as you, of course.

John Dehlin [03:13:58] Yeah, yeah.

Jackson Paul [03:13:59] And I mean, we have situation. And not that I'm, I'm just saying this is an example of it. I'm not portraying you as, you know, layman or lemnial. I'm saying that layman, Lemuel, Nephi and Sam, they all experience the same journey through the wilderness and have vastly different experiences. If we read the book of Lemuel.

Debating the Atonement and Moral Philosophy

John Dehlin [03:14:18] Yeah.

Jackson Paul [03:14:18] Holy cow. Nephi is the worst dude in the entire world. Okay. And so like, yeah, we, you say what happened to me? I don't know. I haven't lived your life. All I, all I'm saying is that the, the roots of the things is what we're trying to get at. Get at?

John Dehlin [03:14:38] Yeah.

Jackson Paul [03:14:39] Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [03:14:39] Beautiful. That's. And the roots are love, right? Love.

Hayden Paul [03:14:43] It's more than that.

John Dehlin [03:14:44] Faith.

Jackson Paul [03:14:45] No, it's Jesus Christ. It's Jesus Christ that Jesus Christ performed the atonement. And it's a little bit disingenuous to hear that. You're not a critic of the church when I've heard your mouth speak the words that the atonement of Jesus Christ is an insidious doctrine when that is the central focus of, of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [03:15:10] So.

Jackson Paul [03:15:10] And so.

John Dehlin [03:15:10] So before you cite that, I think context is important. So I would love to hear what, you know, the two minutes before saying that. But what I could say right now and talk about is that this idea that, that an all power, this is going back to Mormon God. This is how I was taught. God's all powerful, all loving, all knowledgeable. Right.

Hayden Paul [03:15:37] But the Book of Mormon also says he can cease to be God, which means that he lives by certain laws, which means he is not.

John Dehlin [03:15:43] I'm with you on all that. But, but God's, you know, there's the war in heaven, there's all these spirits up there. He's got to, you know, figure out how to get his spirit children to become like him. Someday he's going to send them all down on earth to be tested, keep from them a knowledge of their prior life and Then they're all going to sin. They're all going to mess up some of them in horrible ways, oftentimes tied to the brains. They got the psychological templates that they got, the upbringing that they got, the conditions that they were living in. And forget the fact that a very teeny percent, less than 1/2 of 1%, are ever going to learn God's one true doctrine of Mormon theology. But most are never even going to learn about Jesus's name. Most are never even going to hear Jesus's in the flesh, let alone have the chance to actually learn, believe in and follow him. But somehow this all powerful, all knowing God is going to make all men such that they sin, right?

Hayden Paul [03:16:48] No, he doesn't make them that way. See, and that's, that's.

John Dehlin [03:16:51] I know. Okay, so their, their intelligence is like he created their spirits.

Hayden Paul [03:16:55] This is fundamentally important because one of your. I don't know if it's one of your most popular reels, but it's one that got passed around. Ton. Is John Larsen sitting in maybe this chair and he's just like railing it. If this is the God that you believe in who does this and does this and does this. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, that is the Protestant and Catholic conceptualization of God, not the Latter Day Saint conceptualization of God. And so it's really important that you do not put the other conceptualizations of God, because that is the fruit, that is the roots of this strong tree that we're talking about.

John Dehlin [03:17:27] It's the roots. It's the roots sometimes. And then the other times, no, that's

Hayden Paul [03:17:32] since the very beginning, that has been the roots that we are co. That we are coat eternal with God, that he did not create us out of nothing. And so he's not making us do any of these things. That is the fundamental doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. One of the stakes of why.

John Dehlin [03:17:49] So let me rephrase. So we all exist to sin. For whatever reason, we're all gonna sin. All of us are gonna come to this earth and sin. And God knows that.

Hayden Paul [03:18:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:18:00] Right. And the only idea he can come up with for how to make it all right is to take the one sinless child that he has and to torture and to allow that child, that person, to be tortured and punished and to suffer so that all the rest of us can somehow be made whole. My point is an all powerful, all loving God can figure something else out. If, if baptisms for the dead can be performed where a body doesn't have to be alive and accepting of the ordinance. But a bunch of dead, bunch of people, long after that person died can be baptized by proxy so that that person can accept that ordinance in the afterlife. If God has that level of creativity, he can figure out some other way to make it so that we can all return to him, short of torturing and punishing to the point of bleeding from every pore. The one blameless, innocent person who's super kind and good. There's something dark about that when you think about the fact that he's an all powerful, all loving God. I wouldn't do that to my kid. I wouldn't allow one of my kids to be tortured and punished and to bleed and to die to make it okay for the other siblings to have some positive outcome. So there is something insidious about that. I know that's sacrilegious to hear, but if you take the fact that God's all powerful and all loving, there's something, there's certainly there's a better way, right? But then my biggest concern about the atonement is how it's enforced in the lives of people. In other words, we're sinning, we're making mistakes, but then if we're shamed, if we're shamed for our mistakes, and the only way that we can receive, make it all right, is to like, promise to pay 10% of our tithing and promise to do whatever our church leaders tell us and we have to go to some man to get forgiveness and then that man is going to possibly make us do all sorts of things that may not be healthy for us. Like in Gerardo's case, How's Gerardo going to be able to take advantage of the atonement? Right. He's damned according to Mormon doctrine and theology, because he doesn't want to repent. But I say Gerardo is living an authentic, valid, loving life. And so in a Mormon context, with a gay man, how the atonement would work is that a bishop would say, you're sinning with your homosexuality. That's evil. And the only way that you're going to receive forgiveness is to stop loving men, start loving women, and to repent for your sins of loving people of the same gender. And then act the way that we tell you to act, which is living straight when you're gay, not being attracted to the person that you're loving, and then living your whole life wishing you were dead so that someday when you die, God can cure your nature and then you can. That's the way that the atonement is applied to gay people is horrific in my opinion.

Jackson Paul [03:21:28] John, to go back to your point, surely there has to be a better way. You as God, John, what would you do instead?

John Dehlin [03:21:37] I wouldn't teach that homosexuality was evil to begin with.

Hayden Paul [03:21:40] No, the atonement.

Jackson Paul [03:21:41] No, no. The atonement, you said. Surely there has to be another way. So you, John, acting as God, what would you do?

John Dehlin [03:21:49] Instead of having a doctrine of atonement, I would have a doctrine of learning where it's taught that when you sin, it's a mistake. When you do something that isn't smart, when you do something that hurts somebody, that's not a sin, it's not evil, it's a mistake.

Hayden Paul [03:22:08] What if it's on purpose?

John Dehlin [03:22:09] We'll get there. I'll get there. So let me just give you the base answer. The base answer is it's a doctrine of learning where you. Where you're taught what is as healthy as people know at the time. And you try and live that way, and then.

Jackson Paul [03:22:22] As healthy as people know at the time.

John Dehlin [03:22:24] Yeah, that.

Jackson Paul [03:22:25] That is so arbitrary. So who's determining what is healthy?

John Dehlin [03:22:31] Not Joseph Fielding Smith.

Hayden Paul [03:22:33] You know, talking about God here.

Jackson Paul [03:22:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:36] So that's the thing. But. But I'll just go back to that. Like the idea that I can only know God's will through the mouth of Joseph Fielding Smith or Spence W. Kimball or Bruce R. McConkey or Brigham Young. Why doesn't God. God can talk to all of us.

Jackson Paul [03:22:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:22:52] Why does God have to. Why do we all have to talk to God through the intermediary of these old bigoted dudes that don't love science and that tend to be super misogynistic? Why can't there be a model where God works with women and that we hear the truth of God through prophetic women? Or better yet, God visits each of us because we know God is all powerful. So why can't God just come to each of us, help mentor us individually without the need for gods to be intermediary?

Jackson Paul [03:23:25] Jesus Christ, he called 12 men, 12 apostles. Is he misogynistic? Is Jesus Christ misogynistic?

John Dehlin [03:23:34] I mean, no.

Jackson Paul [03:23:36] He only called 12 men, not a single woman. Is he misogynistic?

John Dehlin [03:23:39] We are changing the subject now. I mean, I'll answer.

Jackson Paul [03:23:42] You changed the subject when I asked you, playing God, how would you do? How would you save your children?

John Dehlin [03:23:48] Come back to that. Because I want to. I want to stick on what you asked me, which was. I called the atonement. Insidious.

Hayden Paul [03:23:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:23:54] I know it's sacred, but I told you some thoughts I've had about why it's problematic.

Hayden Paul [03:24:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:24:00] Torturing an innocent person and then wielding over people shame and guilt so that you can get them to conform with things that actually make the church super rich and make this church super powerful, often to the detriment of the people who. Who are just trying to figure out life and learn. The way that the atonement is often deployed within orthodox religious or Mormon context is insidious in the way that it destroys lives in its implementation. So I don't know what I said in the exact instance you're saying, but I'm telling you now, if you ask me the problems with the atonement, and I'll come back to the misogyny question. But, but. But I want to make sure we answer.

Gerardo Sumano [03:24:46] I think he's saying. I think what he's asking is, if you were God and you had to come up with another way other than having Jesus Christ suffer for everyone else's sin, what would be the other way? Is that what you're asking?

Jackson Paul [03:24:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:25:00] Okay, so all that stuff was just a ram rant that wasn't answering your question. If so, I feel bad.

Hayden Paul [03:25:05] No. Like, it got a little. It got a little bit. A little bit.

Jackson Paul [03:25:07] But I'm saying, John, you're sitting in the chair where you're criticizing the doctrine of the atonement of Jesus Christ. You're saying it's not good. So you have a better solution?

John Dehlin [03:25:18] I got a better solution.

Jackson Paul [03:25:19] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:25:20] It's the way I deal with my children. When my children goof up, I don't go, oh, Winston, you screwed up. Let me punish Maya really bad because Maya's more good. Let me punish Maya really bad, and then you can pray to me through Maya and receive forgiveness for what you've done because Maya suffered for you. No, what I do is I say, hey, Winston, hey, listen, you just punched your sister in the face. How do you think that made her feel? You teach, you instruct you. You make it a learning opportunity. You develop empathy with them, and then hopefully, over time, they develop the desire and the conviction to not punch their sister anymore. So it's a learning opportunity community. It's not a punish one to support the other. Guilt and shame, paradise.

Gerardo Sumano [03:26:09] I think where he's getting to is the idea of justice and mercy. Justice and mercy both had to be satisfied and somewhere is putting a rule on the universe above.

John Dehlin [03:26:20] No, that. That's. It's not. God says. There's no such thing as God says. Okay, there's. There's what a bunch of dudes wrote oftentimes generations after Jesus was even alive. In that case or before Jesus, there wasn't even a Jew. Jesus. Yeah, some Isaiah or some Jeremiah writes some stuff down and just like you're saying now, bring it, Bruce Armaconki got it wrong with interracial marriage. Well, those dudes could have got it wrong. Alma Almond healing probably didn't even exist.

Gerardo Sumano [03:26:48] I mean, Kwaku was saying that Nephi was probably racist and got some of the stuff.

John Dehlin [03:26:53] No, but I'm just saying, like.

Gerardo Sumano [03:26:54] Right. I think that's the idea. Right. The prophets write things on the scriptures that probably are part of their thinking and not necessarily what God wants to be in the scriptures.

John Dehlin [03:27:06] Even you guys have said today that prophets get it wrong and the scriptures can get it wrong. So when you say there's a scripture in the Book of Mormon that says mercy must satisfy the demands of justice, an innocent person, a innocent lamb, must be punished to make up for the sins of other people. Why? Because some prophet wrote that? How about there's not a universal calculus of good and bad, and all bad actions have to be justified through the suffering of someone innocent? How about just, people make mistakes and then they learn and then they do better. How about that? Why does it have to be the other way?

Hayden Paul [03:27:48] So in your scenario, you want a scenario where there isn't a justice for our actions, it's just everyone is saved independent of whatever mistakes they may make.

John Dehlin [03:28:02] Sure that sounds better than punishing an innocent person eternally.

Gerardo Sumano [03:28:07] I mean, Joseph Smith wrote in Doctrine Covenants that people need to be. That if people don't repent, they have to suffer just as Jesus did at the end, people that didn't repent, they're going to have to suffer for their own sins. So why do we need Jesus? Why don't people just suffer for their own sins?

Hayden Paul [03:28:24] Well, so let's pull up that exact. We can pull up that exact. That exact verse that you're talking about. But I. I do want to say before we get into that, what you just conceptualized is not the first time that's been conceptualized. Of course, when, like, there's a very clear conceptualization of that in chapter one, not core horror. So Lucifer. So.

Jackson Paul [03:28:54] Similar idea, brothers.

Hayden Paul [03:28:56] From the very. From the very beginning, the argument was this, I want everyone to be saved. Not a soul will be lost.

Gerardo Sumano [03:29:02] But wasn't the idea taking. Taking away Satan's idea was to take away people's freedom of choice?

Hayden Paul [03:29:11] Well, how do you take Away people's freedom of choice, is it by forcing them or is it by getting rid of.

Gerardo Sumano [03:29:16] Well, what I was taught when I was Mormon was I. They were going to be forced to do right and not have the choice between good and evil. That's what I was taught, so.

Hayden Paul [03:29:25] Okay, that's really good. So let's look real quick at second Nephi, chapter two. You know, this is a classic. You know, Lehigh talking about the Garden of Eden. And he says something that goes along with what you're saying, Gerardo. He says, and now, my sons, I speak unto you. Sorry, let me just find the exact. There are things. They're both things to act and things to be acted on upon and to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he created our first parents and the beasts and the fowls of the air, and. Sorry, the beast of the field and fowls of the air. And in fine. All things which are created, it must needs be that there be was an opposition, even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life and one being sweet and the other being bitter. Then later on, he talks about how there must be an opposition in all things, because if you don't have an opposition in all things. So right here? Oh, yeah, it's right here. It must be there's an opposition all things. If not so my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass. Neither wickedness, neither holiness, nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one. Wherefore, if it should be one body, it must needs remain as dead, having no life, neither death, nor corruption, nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense or insensibility. And so if you don't have the opposition, meaning what is which. Which I.

Gerardo Sumano [03:31:00] But I don't think that's what he's proposing. He's proposing you can still do bad things. You just either suffer for your own consequences of your decisions, or I'm proposing you for suffer after life, just like we're gonna have to do if I don't follow Jesus.

Hayden Paul [03:31:14] Okay, so this makes exactly what you're saying. So the consequence of our sins is separation from God. That is one of the consequences.

John Dehlin [03:31:26] Why, though? Why? Like when my kid. When Winston goofs up, I don't go, sorry, Winston, I'm separating you from me. Why would God create a heaven where imperfect people are separated from him? I wouldn't do that with my kids.

Hayden Paul [03:31:39] Your cosmology is so wrong. And this is what's so frustrating. God didn't create a heaven like, and, and this is in the earth.

Gerardo Sumano [03:31:49] I think he's saying. I, I think he's saying that God is abound by, by bigger laws that exist.

Hayden Paul [03:31:57] There's a fundamental. And this is.

Gerardo Sumano [03:31:59] God can't do anything about it.

John Dehlin [03:32:00] Basically, like this is how things are.

Hayden Paul [03:32:02] And this is why we can't have a talk about all of these branches that you've been bringing up because we're not agreeing on the roots. And you're talking from. You're talking a different conceptualization of God that is not Latter Day Saint in origin. The Latter Day Saint in origin. God did not create these arbitrary rules. They are eternal rules. And, and this comes down to a big question. It was like, do you believe in an objective morality or is morality subjective?

John Dehlin [03:32:31] Do you believe in an objective.

Hayden Paul [03:32:33] Yes, I do.

John Dehlin [03:32:36] So is it wrong? Is it wrong to be gay?

Hayden Paul [03:32:39] I. So. And we have to, to have that conversation, which I think it's important. Let's have it. We have, we have to do some. We can't go roots and then branches. Roots and branches. If we just keep doing that, we're never going to get anywhere. We have to stay at this point. Is there an objective morality? What, What? Like do you think that.

John Dehlin [03:32:58] I. I don't know. I don't know. Well, that's something, you know, you guys say I don't know a lot. That's something I would say. I don't know.

Jackson Paul [03:33:05] Yeah, well, obviously to a certain extent you have to believe in something because you say a lot of things. You say the doc. The doctrine of the atonement is insidious.

John Dehlin [03:33:16] So I didn't say that. I said it can be insidious or it can be applied in insidious ways.

Jackson Paul [03:33:22] Okay, how do you deem those things insidious then?

John Dehlin [03:33:27] Yeah, I have values.

Jackson Paul [03:33:28] Where do they come from?

John Dehlin [03:33:29] A lot of them came from Mormonism.

Jackson Paul [03:33:31] Okay,

Hayden Paul [03:33:34] so. But is there, do you believe that there is objective? Like what are you basing on? What standard are you.

John Dehlin [03:33:40] If there's objective truth? I think we suck at figuring out what it is because every Mormon, every Mormon prophet would tell you that the truth is different in some significantly fundamental way. There are prophets in the 1800s, Mormon prophets that would say you can't be exalted without plural marriage. Is that objective truth? They sure thought it was because they were taught that by other prophets. So how do we whether. The reason why I'm saying I don't know is because how. How are we to agree on what the objective truth is?

Hayden Paul [03:34:12] We don't have to agree on the objective truth. We have to agree whether or not there is an objective truth.

John Dehlin [03:34:17] What good is it if we can't figure out what it is and agree on it? What good is it? It's just a. It's. It's literally a philosophical question that actually doesn't help us.

Hayden Paul [03:34:24] Yeah, no, it does, because if we agree that something exists, then we can argue about what that existence, how that existence is manifested.

John Dehlin [03:34:33] There's an alternative, which is if there's

Hayden Paul [03:34:35] a constant goal post move where it's like we believe in an objective truth and you believe in a subjective truth that's all lived experience and personal, then we have nothing that we can talk about because we have not to do.

John Dehlin [03:34:46] Because we can both look at. We can observe how much pain and suffering certain decisions cost or cause, and we can kind of agree.

Hayden Paul [03:34:55] But is suffering bad?

John Dehlin [03:34:57] Holocaust. I don't need a God. I don't need some belief in an objective morality to know that a holocaust is bad.

Hayden Paul [03:35:03] Okay, so that's objectively evil is what you're saying.

John Dehlin [03:35:06] I think we can agree that the, that the impact of that causes so much harm and damage and sadness. We can agree that it's not a good thing by observing the impact of it without either of us claiming to have some sort of command of an eternal objective truth.

Hayden Paul [03:35:27] Yeah, so knowing what the objective truth is different. Like understanding and being able to conceptualize and articulate is different than believing that there is an objective truth. Do you see what I'm saying?

John Dehlin [03:35:38] I see what you're saying, but I don't know why it matters to assert that there's an objective truth if we cannot in practice really agree on what that is. And what drives your perceptions of, of objective truth is what Mormon prophets have said or what Mormon prophets wrote. You just based a lot of your theology on a book where the person whose name is on the book or the chapter that you just quoted from likely didn't exist at all. And yet you're basing your views of objective truth and reality on. On the words of, of a book that most people would view as Bible fan fiction.

Hayden Paul [03:36:16] Okay, so here's a question then. Those words that I pulled out, in what ways are they wrong? Do can you have true happiness without also having sadness? Is there such thing as sin if there is not such thing as. As goodness? So, so that's what I'm saying is like critique the idea. So the idea that there has to be opposition in all things meaning there is.

John Dehlin [03:36:38] Like what that's saying is that there's. There's goodness in the world and there's suffering in the world. And any, Any religion and secular people all agree on that.

Hayden Paul [03:36:48] Okay, cool. So, like, we're bringing this up.

John Dehlin [03:36:52] We don't need the Book of Mormon to arrive at that conclusion.

Hayden Paul [03:36:56] I'm not saying that you do. I'm saying the Book of Mormon holds that as. As one of its tenants. It's on there. I pulled that out because I feel like the articulation in there made by who I believe is Lehi is a. Is a really clear articulation that if you do not have opposition in all things, then you end up with death. Because without life, then. Without death, then there is no life. But do you make sense?

John Dehlin [03:37:17] Can you see the difference between objective truth and observations of reality? Because I would call for sure the observation that there's joy and that there's suffering in the world and that they both. Both pretty much are always with us.

Hayden Paul [03:37:32] They have to coincide. So that's. That's the observation. It's not just an observation. He's saying that they have to exist.

John Dehlin [03:37:39] How about if both always exist? It's a leap to say they have to coincide. That's a faith proposition. I think it's sufficient to just say I observe that there's joy and goodness in the world and a lot of pain and suffering, and they're pretty much both always with us.

Hayden Paul [03:37:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:37:56] The fact that it must be that way, I don't know. It's just. That's the way it is. But why is calling that absolute truth? How does that add any more value than a secular observation that both aren't going anywhere?

Hayden Paul [03:38:12] Well, it's important that we're having. We have that conversation because even the idea of science itself is based on the idea that there is an objective truth and we're trying to discover it. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [03:38:24] I would say no. I would say science would not say that there's an objective truth. I'd say science would say that we can observe things and collect data and then draw conclusions about the data that's collected based on those observations that science is tapping in.

Hayden Paul [03:38:42] What are we trying to observe?

John Dehlin [03:38:44] Reality. Reality.

Hayden Paul [03:38:45] Reality which is based on what.

John Dehlin [03:38:47] What we observe and experience.

Hayden Paul [03:38:51] Okay, like. And I think this is one of the fundamental issues, and I. Maybe we're at an impasse to some degree on this where it's like, if we don't have a standard. So, like, is your belief then that your standard and our standard can never be reconciled and everybody has their own standard and There isn't a standard, a meta standard that can be discovered by everyone. So you do believe in a subjective.

John Dehlin [03:39:17] I think we share way more values than we differ on. I'd say we share 95% of our values.

Hayden Paul [03:39:23] But are those rooted in something real or are they just because we have a similar lived experience?

John Dehlin [03:39:29] See, they're rooted in culture, they're rooted in, in our psychology. They're rooted in history. They're. They're rooted in our collective experience across generations.

Hayden Paul [03:39:42] So if I understand correctly that that would be kind of the definition of a subjective morality, it's because, because, you know, if we, if we live here at this time now, but if we grew up in a household that is white supremacist, neo Nazi type thing, and they're told that way, then because that's their lived experience in their culture and their history, then that is true. So what I'm understanding is that you actually.

John Dehlin [03:40:13] That's their perceptions, that's their value.

Hayden Paul [03:40:15] And so is that true though? Is it objectively true? Like, is there an objective truth? And so what I'm understanding is that you don't think that.

John Dehlin [03:40:22] I don't think an absolute objective truth is knowable in any way, that we could all agree to it and then find value in it. I think everybody has their opinion and their perspective about what's true, including orthodox, devout, believing Mormons, including Mormon prophets. Here's a revelators. So the idea that there is an objective truth out there is not super useful given that none of us, including Mormon prophets, can even agree on what that objective truth is.

Hayden Paul [03:40:49] So if I told you there was a treasure in the ground and we, and we believed that, both of us believed that that treasure was in the ground, but we were digging in different places and we had differing ideas of how we should dig and what, what equipment we should use and whatever, that's completely different than one of us saying there is a treasure in the ground, the other one saying there's not. So what's the point? See, that's why I'm talking. That's why I'm asking about this objective truth idea. Because if you don't believe that there is an objective meta truth that underlies all reality, then our conversations, conversations about anything can only go so far because then it just comes down to my lived experience is different.

John Dehlin [03:41:26] But what, what you're not acknowledging, and I keep trying to say this is. Let's just say that we all agree that there is an objective truth out there, but we all disagree about what that objective truth is. What's the value of asserting that there is an objective truth to begin with in the, in our lived experiences?

Hayden Paul [03:41:45] Because then, because then we know that we're, we're digging for the same thing. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [03:41:50] I think I, I think we're digging for minimizing human suffering and maximizing human goodness.

Hayden Paul [03:41:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:41:57] And I don't need a belief in an objective truth to share that with either of you. Right? Isn't that what you guys want? Minimal suffering and maximum well being for humankind?

Hayden Paul [03:42:11] We want maximum. So what we, what I want, I'm going to speak for me. I'm going to say for Jackson, I want every single person to reach their highest potential.

John Dehlin [03:42:19] Me too.

Hayden Paul [03:42:20] So. And we can share that happens though, through suffering.

John Dehlin [03:42:26] Partly through suffering. Too much suffering is going to end your life or make your, your life so bad that you're not going to be able to thrive.

Hayden Paul [03:42:34] So before you're saying we want to minimize suffering and maximize happiness or whatever, what I'm saying is, I'm not worried about that.

John Dehlin [03:42:42] I'm worried about, I'll say unproductive, unproductive suffering.

Hayden Paul [03:42:45] Okay, so there is a certain suffering that's productive and certain that's not. Which means that there is some sort of objective standard that you are trying to debase things off of. And so what I, what I'm saying is the laws of justice and mercy, consequences, that is what the war in heaven was about. And you know, this is my interpretation. And I think that because the one way you can get rid of agency is to get rid of consequences. So for example, I don't have to force you to do something for a certain consequence. I can just say, do whatever you want. You're going to get the same thing, meaning everyone's going to be saved. I still destroy agency. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [03:43:27] Yeah. And I, I've, I'm, I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be consequences.

Hayden Paul [03:43:31] Yes, but what you did argue for is that there should be a situation where we make certain actions, there are consequences, but in the end we all get the same thing. In the end.

John Dehlin [03:43:41] No.

Hayden Paul [03:43:42] Well, that's what you said. We asked what would your, what would the. Be a better, a better plan than the atonement of Jesus Christ? And you say, well. And I asked, would it be just that everyone's saved? And you said yes, in the end.

John Dehlin [03:43:56] And so I'm talking about how to deal with people making mistakes. That's my focus. It's not about the outcome in heaven. I don't like what I'm saying is, what I was trying to say is I don't like the idea of God creating a heaven where people who aren't righteous enough are excluded from his presence. As a parent, I'm going to pull closer to kids that need my help and that are struggling. I'm not going to keep them at level two or level three of heaven and separate them from their family because that's how Mormon heaven is structured.

Hayden Paul [03:44:26] Well, so it's. And so this is a good, this is a good conversation. Let's have a conversation about this. Because it has a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of. So I, I talked about earlier the idea of there is one eternal truth. I believe it's an eternal truth. But you would disagree that no unclean thing can enter the presence of God.

John Dehlin [03:44:49] That's just an assertion.

Hayden Paul [03:44:50] And what I'm saying is that the reason for that. The reason for that isn't because of God. The reason for that is because of the unclean thing.

John Dehlin [03:45:00] And that's a cscs that's like a mere Christianity argument that we. Except we don't feel comfortable in God's presence because of our weaknesses. We separate ourselves from God.

Hayden Paul [03:45:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:45:11] And I read Mere Christianity. I was inspired by.

Hayden Paul [03:45:13] I think you're thinking great divorce. Maybe.

John Dehlin [03:45:15] Maybe.

Hayden Paul [03:45:16] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:45:16] I'm talking about CS Lewis, but yes. Okay.

Hayden Paul [03:45:18] Yes. And that is cs.

John Dehlin [03:45:20] I think it's also a mere Christianity. I think it's in your probably talks

Hayden Paul [03:45:23] about it then too.

John Dehlin [03:45:23] It does. Yes, it for sure does because it's. The grass is soft for some people and it's hard for others.

Hayden Paul [03:45:29] That's a great divorce. You're talking about the great divorce there. But it is CEO Again,

John Dehlin [03:45:40] if God is the creator of heavens and the earth, and he is, like we're taught, he's the creator of heavens, the earth. You want to think that clearly, if there's three levels of heaven, God created heaven. So God created the three levels, right?

Hayden Paul [03:45:55] No.

Jackson Paul [03:45:56] So what you're saying is in the Genesis account, it says God created the heavens and the earth and he separated. Then he created the firmament to separate the waters and the heavens and the earth. The heavens is just the atmosphere in that scenario. Okay. And so what we're saying is that we are co eternal with God, meaning that God did not create these eternal laws, but that just as Jesus Christ did nothing save he saw the Father do that. That's a similar scenario.

John Dehlin [03:46:26] So, okay, so I think I hear what you guys are saying. You're basically saying that Mormon heaven has a celestial kingdom, a terrestrial A terrestrial and an outer darkness. And that God, Heavenly Father Elohim didn't create that. That design of heaven is this eternal design that no one ever created, just forever and ever.

Hayden Paul [03:46:48] It's based on a universe.

John Dehlin [03:46:50] Somehow in the universe of all mankind and humankind's existence, there was some rule that heaven has to be three levels and an outer darkness. And anyone who becomes a God, that's the heaven that has to be there because the. Some magical thing in the universe said that heaven needs to be constructed that way. Is that what you're saying?

Hayden Paul [03:47:12] I'm saying that there is. And this is why I started with the objective truth thing.

John Dehlin [03:47:17] Well, why can't you just say yes to that?

Hayden Paul [03:47:18] Because it's not, it's not completely yes to most of that.

John Dehlin [03:47:22] Okay.

Hayden Paul [03:47:23] But it's, it's that there is not that something created is that there is just eternal law. So this is a scientific, this is a scientific idea.

Gerardo Sumano [03:47:32] I think where they're getting at is that Mormonism gives you even more answers to this. Questions about the irrationality of the atonement and existence in God and laws and doctrine and rules and, and commandments. Because God is bound by all these eternal rules that he didn't create and that he. If he decides to change the plan, then he says, I get that.

John Dehlin [03:47:57] So I'm just trying to draw that to its conclusion. So Mormon teaches us what heaven looks like. It's a Doctrine and Covenant, Section 76. Right. So Mormon tells us about the celestial terrestrial.

Hayden Paul [03:48:07] So it's a vision. It's not Mormon. It's. It's Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrim. Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:48:12] Teaches us the structure of heaven, a

Hayden Paul [03:48:14] vision that they had.

John Dehlin [03:48:15] And you're, you're saying that God had to design heaven that way because there's some, there's some eternal law that says that heaven has to be constructed that way. And if God had. Have constructed heaven that way, he would have ceased to be God. So it's some committee, some eternal rule, designed heaven to be that way. And so God has to comply with that design.

Hayden Paul [03:48:40] Not a committee, but there is something eternal. There's just eternal law.

John Dehlin [03:48:44] Where did that idea that heaven needs to have three levels and an outer darkness. Who put that. That just was there.

Mormon Views on Heaven, Hell, and Eternal Families

Hayden Paul [03:48:52] Well, so, so first off, there's, I mean, there's just so many things that go in. Like first off, your interpretation of D&C 76. First off, it's a vision. It's a visionary experience, which we talked about earlier. Visionary experiences I don't believe are ever to be Taken as like literal history.

Gerardo Sumano [03:49:12] Literally as a missionary, like I was telling people here are you gonna go

John Dehlin [03:49:16] here, you got the flip chart, you've got the circles and here's the slush.

Hayden Paul [03:49:20] It's a good way of conceptualizing something that is beyond our, our complete understanding. But this is how I look at the plan of salvation from just a high level conceptual thing is that it's not a binary heaven or hell. That's what the rest of Christianity teaches. Right, Binary heaven and hell. Which doesn't make sense. Which totally makes sense here because there isn't a binary on everything here. There are decisions that you can make where the consequences of the are aren't just like good and then really, really bad.

Gerardo Sumano [03:49:51] And there's some evidence that there were people around Joseph Smith's time who were thinking about those things and were teaching about several heavens. And Joseph Smith from the read those ideas as well and gone well because

Jackson Paul [03:50:04] they're in the Bible vision.

Hayden Paul [03:50:06] Those ideas are in the Bible.

Gerardo Sumano [03:50:08] The Paul scripture where he mentions the, the stars and bodies, whatever, but it doesn't mention celestial. But then Joseph wants to insert celestial there.

John Dehlin [03:50:18] It doesn't say that people if you commit X sins you go to this kingdom and if you commit Y sins you go to this kingdom. Kingdom. And if you have the right number of wives and you get to go to the top kingdom. Jesus didn't say all that in. Or Paul didn't say all that in the Bible. Right?

Jackson Paul [03:50:33] Yeah, no, of upon greater light and knowledge being given that.

Gerardo Sumano [03:50:37] Right.

Jackson Paul [03:50:38] So people expounded upon.

Hayden Paul [03:50:40] Yes, right.

Gerardo Sumano [03:50:41] What I'm saying, people around Joseph Smith's time were also reading those scriptures and thinking about the binary of heaven and hell.

John Dehlin [03:50:47] Have you all heard in Sweden, Swedenborg. Because in the 1700s he came up with, with three levels of heaven. In the 1700s there's a lot of

Hayden Paul [03:50:54] people that did that.

Gerardo Sumano [03:50:55] I mean so Joseph Smith was not the first one. He was the one that put it into scripture that made it to us today. But yes, but yeah, that's where it comes.

Hayden Paul [03:51:03] I think that's so. So overall because yeah there's just a million tangents like I said. And it's difficult overall. The, the teaching is this God there is an eternal law, an objective truth. That's why I asked that question. Because everything rides on that.

John Dehlin [03:51:23] There's an eternal truth that none of us really knows what it just exists.

Hayden Paul [03:51:26] And this is a scientific law too. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed. Right, great.

John Dehlin [03:51:31] Okay.

Hayden Paul [03:51:32] So it just exists on a self existent principle which means if matter cannot be created nor destroyed. That means all the principles that relate to matter were not created nor destroyed because matters existed forever. So scientifically, we believe that nothing was created like that. There is just happens to be like an objective meta truth that governs the universe.

John Dehlin [03:51:56] I get that all that.

Hayden Paul [03:51:57] I get that that is what we've left.

John Dehlin [03:51:59] We've left the part about heaven because I think that's important, because I was taught that if you don't get a Mormon baptism, a Mormon marriage, Mormon endowments, live the Mormon way, you don't get to go to the top heaven. And anyone else who doesn't go to the top heaven literally doesn't get to live with their families. And when I'm knocking on someone's door as a missionary, I say, do you want to live with your family forever? Well, then listen to us. And what's implied, if you don't do the Mormon thing, you're not going to live with your family forever. That I didn't make that stuff up, right?

Hayden Paul [03:52:31] Yeah, no, you're right. And so what about those things do you think Latter Day Saints believe binds them to their family? Like, so is it just the fact that you were sealed in the temple? Is that what does it like, you going in and just doing the ordinance? Like, is that what seals you as a family?

John Dehlin [03:52:46] All the ordinances plus faithfulness and righteousness.

Hayden Paul [03:52:48] Okay, so.

John Dehlin [03:52:49] And Jesus's atonement.

Hayden Paul [03:52:51] And so this is a big. This is a big thing because I think the way. And this is a lot of Latter Day Saints that I talk to, we have this conceptualization that it's like, you got to have your temple recommend, you show up to heaven. And then people that have their temple recommend, they're like, here you go, you're into heaven. Welcome. Oh, I'm sorry. And then they're like, no, don't take away from me. And they rip them apart. That, like, that's the conceptualization. It's. And I believe that that is a very. And I don't mean this to be, like, disrespectful. I find it to be kind of an immature conceptualization of other.

Gerardo Sumano [03:53:23] Holland explained it that way in every.

Jackson Paul [03:53:26] Explained it in what way?

Gerardo Sumano [03:53:28] In the way that, you know, without the temple, families are not going to be forever.

Hayden Paul [03:53:33] It's true.

Gerardo Sumano [03:53:34] Together and that, you know, like the. The idea of empty chairs and, you know, like, you want everyone to still stay faithful to Mormonism so they can all be together forever.

Hayden Paul [03:53:46] Yeah, but that's not his conceptual. So this is what I'm saying. What does that actually mean? Does that mean. Because I was showing a character, a caricature that I think a lot of us have of what that means. So God's just separating us and be like, sorry. And then you're like, no, I want to be with you, Timmy, or whatever.

Jackson Paul [03:54:00] Right.

Hayden Paul [03:54:01] But look at it this way. And I think the Great Divorce is actually a really good model of this. What you do in the temple is you make covenants to live in certain ways, to adopt the countenance of Christ and have that engraven upon yourselves. Right. And so in the end, what makes you want to be together or. Or seals you as a family is your oneness in heart becoming one with Christ, with God, and as a consequence, with each other. So in the Great divorce, the way C.S. lewis and is brilliant, the way he conceptualizes hell is the reason why it's ever expanding is because people are there. And because they haven't adopted the countenance of Christ, they haven't become Christian and good. Forever is a long time, so it's only a matter of time before you quarrel with your neighbor and you go away. And then once again, you quarrel with your neighbor and you go away. And so the point that he's making there is that it is you adopting Christ and becoming a being like him that actually seals you together. Because if not, forever is a long time, and it's only a matter of time before you push each other apart and you break up as family.

John Dehlin [03:55:15] Okay, so beautiful. Let's now apply that to Gerardo. Okay. This. Let's. Actually. That sounds beautiful. That.

Hayden Paul [03:55:23] Jackson, you have something. Before we move on, I just want to make sure because it seemed like Jackson wanted something to say along with that. And then we can go to that.

Jackson Paul [03:55:36] In Matthew 7, verse 13 and 14, it says, Enter ye in. This is Jesus Christ speaking. Enter ye in at the straight gate. For wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction. And many there be which go in there at. Because straight is the gate and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life. And few there be that find it. And so obviously, from what you've said, in your perspective, you don't hold the Bible to be the word of God. You don't give credence to it.

John Dehlin [03:56:06] I think there's good in the Bible and there's bad in the Bible. Bible.

Jackson Paul [03:56:09] That what Jesus Christ just said. Do you think that that's.

John Dehlin [03:56:11] Depends on how that's. See, that's. Those are just words he said. But we have to make an interpretation about what the right. What they supposedly said. But we also have to interpret what it means.

Jackson Paul [03:56:21] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:56:22] It could have meant something very specific to his time. It could have been an allegory, or he could have been talking about the eternal fate of souls. What you're about to do is apply an interpretation of that scripture and tell us what it means. Right? So go ahead and do that. But just realize what you're about to say isn't what Jesus just said. You're about to create an interpretation of what Jesus allegedly said.

Jackson Paul [03:56:45] So what would be your interpretation of that?

John Dehlin [03:56:49] I don't. I mean, I'm more interested in yours for the sake of this conversation about Saturday.

Jackson Paul [03:56:54] I know, but you're automatically discounting it because you're saying, oh, you're just gonna read whatever you want into it.

John Dehlin [03:56:59] Because I just want to remind you that just because. Just because you read a scripture doesn't mean God said it. Or just because you provide an interpretation of what you read Jesus said doesn't mean Jesus said it or would provide the same interpretation that you provide. That's all I'm saying.

Jackson Paul [03:57:17] Okay. I mean, then, I mean, reading anything out of the Bible in your. In your worldview, like, it doesn't hold much weight because you are very dubious of the Bible itself even being.

Gerardo Sumano [03:57:29] I mean, you would do the same with scriptures that you don't agree with, right? Like when Jesus said divorce is wrong and she shouldn't get divorced. I don't think the church holds that Jesus or the teaching today or that

John Dehlin [03:57:41] women should stay silent in the church. That very same New Testament you're reading from says women should stay silent in the church. The same doctrine and covenants that you just quoted from says that the earth is 7,000 years old. And you guys are like, I don't know about that one. Right? So you do it too. You do it too. I mean, but, but, but I'd like to hear what you were saying that scripture meant. You're basically saying people are going to be kept out of heaven because Jesus said so.

Jackson Paul [03:58:08] Well, I'm just saying to go along with that, same thing that is a theme throughout the Bible is that no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of God and that it's going to take a whole heck of a lot of sacrifice because it. You have to. Jesus Christ set a standard to. To be lived by, and they coincide with these eternal laws. And I'm not going to pretend that I totally fully understand the eternal, you know, implications of all of that and where these things originated and everything like that. But all I have is what is before me and the teachings in the scriptures to take it to God in prayer, to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling before him. And so that, that's all I'm trying to say is because people say, oh, it's mess that you know, heaven is so exclusive in, in Mormon. You say Mormon heaven is sad heaven. It's like Jesus Christ, what he lays out is that is the defining characteristic of heaven. Excluding wickedness, excluding things that are ungodly.

John Dehlin [03:59:13] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:59:14] That make, that doesn't make it not sad heaven.

Hayden Paul [03:59:18] Well it's.

Jackson Paul [03:59:19] Yeah, but it's a character. It's, it's, it's you looking at the negative of it. Jesus Christ, he provided a way for us if we want to by our own free will and choice, follow his path to return back to the presence of our heaven.

Gerardo Sumano [03:59:36] My dad, who's a bishop, who's dedicated his whole life to the church based as pay tithing since he's been member of the church, take presidencies, whatever, he's gonna have us at heaven because he's not gonna have me. Why, why does he get.

Hayden Paul [03:59:54] Well, so here, here's a, here's another, here's another thing to go along and we can continue down that. The question that, that John was, was moving towards heaven is also not supposed to be just happy.

Gerardo Sumano [04:00:09] Elder Holland, on the video that they play on every, on every temple dedication.

Hayden Paul [04:00:15] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [04:00:15] Or whatever opening or whatever the, whatever it's called, he says something around the lines of heaven wouldn't be heaven for me or without all my family there.

Hayden Paul [04:00:30] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [04:00:30] The implication is if one of his sons or daughters are, are gay or lesbian, they stray away, they marry the person they, they love, they stopped believing in the church, they're not going to be in there with him. So the implication is that it's not going to be heaven for him.

Hayden Paul [04:00:49] Yeah. And I mean he can, he can say, President Holland can say what makes him heaven.

Gerardo Sumano [04:00:56] Well, not just the church decides to play this video on every, every time they're gonna about to dedicate a temple. So it's not some words that he said over there, you know. You know, you know an obscure book

John Dehlin [04:01:09] when I was a missionary, I showed families are Forever, you know, video and to or film strip to investigators. And it's basically these parents, they have a kid who dies and the parents are heart stricken about their kid dying and, and they're saying I'm never going to see my kid again. I'm going to be separated. And then it's like, oh, but because I joined the Mormon Church. I can get sealed and families can be forever. Because you can get sealed in a Mormon temple. Well, don't you guys see that what that implies is, is that if you don't get sealed in a Mormon temple, you won't see your dead kid in the afterlife. Otherwise, why would they present that as a reason to get better?

Hayden Paul [04:01:49] Well, so what I'm saying is, yes, that is the case, but why? That is the question. If you don't understand the why that is the case, then it looks like a silly caricature. Does that make sense? So I can say like, okay, so sorry real quick, so what's the why? Let's say the why is because.

John Dehlin [04:02:13] Let's say those parents whose kid died are mad at life because their kid died, so they never join any church and are atheists, and then they die. That kid doesn't get to live with his parents in the afterlife. Mm. Why? Tell me why. That is why? In. In this eternal design that created a three level heaven with an outer darkness, what was the design for why that dead kid doesn't get to spend eternity with his parents? What's the why?

Hayden Paul [04:02:41] Well, first off, who is to say we're talking in hypotheticals where another fundamental doctrine that is unique to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that is missing in the rest of the Christian world is that there is progression after this life. In the end, John, you get what you want.

John Dehlin [04:03:03] That's C.S. lewis.

Hayden Paul [04:03:06] Okay, C.S. lewis says it too. But also that is. That is a restoration. A restoration idea.

John Dehlin [04:03:14] But I mean, I was around when there were these debates about whether there's eternal progression.

Hayden Paul [04:03:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:03:19] And there were plenty of general authorities who taught there's eternal progression within kingdoms, but you can't jump kingdoms. And there were prophetess or revelators that taught you can't jump.

Hayden Paul [04:03:29] Did they all agree on that?

John Dehlin [04:03:30] No, but that's my whole point. Like whether it's universal truth or doctrine, we can talk about just making stuff up.

Hayden Paul [04:03:36] We're trying to figure out. Yeah, but that doesn't mean. But that's the thing that's different is that we agree that there's something to figure out. There's.

Gerardo Sumano [04:03:43] If you ask Elder Oaks today, do you think he'll say that someone in terrestrial kingdom who was put there because they decided to leave the church and marry someone of the same sex, do you think Elder Oaks would. Would say, oh, that person is going

John Dehlin [04:03:58] to make it to the celestial, they can eternally progress?

Jackson Paul [04:04:00] I don't know, because he's not the Judge. He's not. We're not the judge.

Gerardo Sumano [04:04:04] Isn't he the one that's supposed to tell us to see and reveal and tell us what's gonna happen?

Hayden Paul [04:04:11] He doesn't know exactly.

Gerardo Sumano [04:04:12] Committing suicide today.

Jackson Paul [04:04:13] Like, he's the one to point us to Jesus Christ and the things that he taught us.

Gerardo Sumano [04:04:20] And what did Jesus teach about people going from terrestrial to celestial or not? Because they didn't. They married someone of their same sex.

Hayden Paul [04:04:28] Well, so there isn't a very, there isn't a specific teaching that I, that I know of about that in the New Testament. Like that's the thing is, like, there are, there are specifics and there aren't always these exact answers in the scriptures. But we, we have to like. I feel like it's really easy for us to just jump around to a bunch of things. And I want to get to the question that Gerardo just brought up. I think it's, I think it's really important.

Homosexuality, Sexuality, and Church Teachings

John Dehlin [04:04:51] Okay, so let me start from the beginning. So what did Jesus say about homosexuality? And just go technical with my question. What did Jesus say about homosexuality? Jackson?

Hayden Paul [04:05:02] No, so we, I, I'm not going to do that. We have to first start with the roots and then we'll answer that question 100. We have, we have that here.

John Dehlin [04:05:10] Okay.

Hayden Paul [04:05:11] What? So if we have an idea of the conception of God, who is God? He is a being that has accepted the, or has learned and accepted and become the laws, the eternal laws of nature and of the universe and is now wanting us to do the same thing, to accept those same laws. And God is the ultimate conceptualization of creation. And so what he, the very first commandment he gives to Adam and eve in Genesis 1 is to go forth, multiply and replenish the earth. His ultimate goal is for us to become creators like him. And so with that in mind, anything that distracts from becoming a creator is not pointing towards our ultimate potential. And God is concerned with helping us reach that ultimate potential with an understanding obviously that that's not what some people are going to want. Does that make sense? So we have to have that as a basis. Everything that is taught from Jesus and, and from the church is pointing man and woman to accept their ultimate, the ultimate potential, which is to become a being like God.

John Dehlin [04:06:32] And so there's all sorts of creation that God does that doesn't involve having babies.

Hayden Paul [04:06:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:06:37] So why can't Gerardo go to the celestial kingdom and do the creating worlds parts? Or if, if anatomy can be restored, if someone can be totally infertile in this life, but somehow resurrect with the, with fertility. Why can't Gerardo and Zach resurrect with fertility so that they can make babies too?

Hayden Paul [04:07:01] Well, once again we go back to the original thing is like there is just an eternal objective law and it's manifested in, in the scriptures.

Gerardo Sumano [04:07:13] And they'll think that there has to be a man, a woman. That's part of the law. Eternal law.

Hayden Paul [04:07:18] Right. Yeah. So. And here's the thing. This isn't. It's not a culture question of value, of how valuable someone is. It's a, it's a. It's a question of do, do these sort of. Do you know, like what the root of sin is? Like what, what separation from God? No. So sin in Greek, that, that. Sorry, it might have been a bad question I asked. In Greek, sin is hamaria. Hamarshia means to miss the mark. It's an archery term, to miss the mark. So what that means is sin is anything big or small that misses the mark. And what we're saying is that the conceptualization of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for the ultimate destiny, potential destiny for man and woman is to become like God. And, and what that, what that ultimate destiny is, is for man and woman to be bound together. And, and we, like I do affirm that the idea of gender and things like that are eternal principles. And so the, and those are conceptualized in the, in Genesis.

John Dehlin [04:08:27] Where does it say in the scriptures that gender is eternal?

Hayden Paul [04:08:32] So it doesn't say like. So you could, you could. Don't take my words. And then say, where does it say.

John Dehlin [04:08:39] No, I'm just curious if, if that's rooted in anything scriptural. I'm just curious.

Jackson Paul [04:08:45] I mean, it's. In the beginning it says that God created male and female. And so if.

John Dehlin [04:08:53] What it doesn't mention is God created intersex too, because back then they didn't know what intersex was. But do you agree that God creates about 1% of his humans to be intersex?

Hayden Paul [04:09:05] God doesn't create that. So once again, that's the, the fundamental difference people come from. Well, we, we fall. So intersex people. And correct me if I'm wrong, I might have a misunderstanding. What is, what is the chromosomal makeup of intersex people?

Gerardo Sumano [04:09:20] It varies. It can be different things.

Hayden Paul [04:09:22] So it can be XX or xy,

Gerardo Sumano [04:09:24] and it can be multiple as well.

Hayden Paul [04:09:27] Xy, xxy.

Gerardo Sumano [04:09:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:09:29] So you can be born with ambiguous genitalia. You can be born with ambiguous chromosomes.

Hayden Paul [04:09:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:09:35] So God creates. Let's just say it's 1% of the human population is in some way intersex. The Bible left that out.

Hayden Paul [04:09:42] It's like 0.01.

Gerardo Sumano [04:09:44] But it's 1%.

Hayden Paul [04:09:45] Is it 1% of people? So one in a hundred people are intersex?

Gerardo Sumano [04:09:49] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:09:49] Yeah, look it up. I, I mean if I'm wrong, everyone Google it and put it in the, put it in the, in the comments. Yeah, but let's say it's point one. It doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah. And if it's point one, that's still hundreds of millions of people of God's children, right?

Hayden Paul [04:10:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:10:08] So the Bible left those people out because they don't matter. Like it said in the beginning, God created, In the beginning, God created male, female and intersex people. Well, it's missing a bunch of his children. What do we make of that?

Hayden Paul [04:10:25] Well, I, I think that we fall. We, we are in a fallen world where mortality is, where it's not.

John Dehlin [04:10:32] Are you saying God didn't create the intersex people? They were just like a mistake?

Hayden Paul [04:10:37] What I'm saying is that their mortal frames, whatever they are, I think that they're, it is a, it does not follow the natural pattern.

John Dehlin [04:10:46] It doesn't follow what was written in the scriptures.

Jackson Paul [04:10:50] No.

John Dehlin [04:10:51] Years ago.

Hayden Paul [04:10:51] Generally speaking, the scientific world would say that intersex is an anomaly. Right. Maybe it's a statistical anomaly that I

Gerardo Sumano [04:11:01] think because of, I mean, my understanding is that is being seen less as an anomaly and something more because of, I, I mean the, the idea is that most people who are, or most babies are born, they're not tested for chromosomes, but then once they are, you know, that's how statistics have been growing about this intersex people.

John Dehlin [04:11:24] And what I'm saying, what I'm saying is that you guys look at Genesis and say, well, it says God created men and women. And so that must be. You're adding, or the Prof. Mormon prophets are adding. That must be the gender's eternal, which it doesn't.

Hayden Paul [04:11:40] So I do believe that that is

John Dehlin [04:11:41] revelation, that that's the way God and Jesus, that God people need to be in heaven as men and women and married as men and women. It doesn't say that you're adding all that just because it starts out leaving out an entire group of people. You take those two things that were the obvious two things to mention and now you're building all this theology on top of it.

Hayden Paul [04:12:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:12:02] Actually doesn't.

Hayden Paul [04:12:03] One thing you're doing right now though is you're Using an exception to argue the rule. And so what we're trying to talk about is the rule. And using a small exception to argue the rule is not just a good. It's not good for conversation.

Gerardo Sumano [04:12:14] I mean, you could say the same thing about gay people. And let's just not. Not think about that, because this is only 5% of the population.

Hayden Paul [04:12:21] Well. Well, I think that there's. There. There are answers out there. I think there is an answer. I don't know what the exact answer is for intersex. I don't. I don't know what that is. What I do know is that I. I believe that the family proclamation in the world and the conceptualization that gender is eternal. I. I do. That. That rings true.

Gerardo Sumano [04:12:43] Did you know that some believing transgender people believe in the family proclamation? And that when it says gender is eternal, it means that their gender. That they believe they should be. Yeah, that's the one that's eternal. Basically, they were born a male, but they feel like they're a female. They feel like eternally they're female. How do you square that?

Jackson Paul [04:13:09] I don't know. I'm not that specific person. But the one thing that I don't do is I don't look at the commandments or revelations personally and see how it can fit around me. Does that make sense?

Hayden Paul [04:13:23] And I. I don't.

Jackson Paul [04:13:24] I don't know that.

Hayden Paul [04:13:24] I. I don't know exactly. But once again, like, we're. We're talking about. We're talking about the ultimate destiny of man is to be able to create and the. Like, the.

John Dehlin [04:13:37] Because Joseph Smith said so. Because no other Christian church believes that.

Hayden Paul [04:13:41] Yes. Yeah. And that. That's why I'm a member of this church, because to me, it makes sense.

John Dehlin [04:13:49] Oh, you gotta go to take off. All right, Gerardo, thanks for joining us. It's been amazing. Yeah.

Hayden Paul [04:13:56] Okay. Appreciate it, man.

Gerardo Sumano [04:13:57] All right.

Hayden Paul [04:13:57] Okay. We'll see ya. And so, with that in mind, like creation, everything is supposed to point to that. And so it is male and female create life. And so I. That's just. That's just how it. That's how it is.

John Dehlin [04:14:18] So. So.

Hayden Paul [04:14:19] But it's not a value judgment on. On Gerardo or on anybody else.

John Dehlin [04:14:23] Why would. Why would you not say that Gerardo's living in sin, that. That him and Zach loving each other, living together is sin? Why wouldn't you just say it's sin?

Jackson Paul [04:14:33] Well, I just say it's not the pattern that has been laid out for the celestial order of things.

Hayden Paul [04:14:40] And, yes, what I will Say, is sin meaning to miss the mark? I do believe it's sin.

John Dehlin [04:14:46] But you didn't want to say that when he was here.

Hayden Paul [04:14:48] No, I'll say that to him right now.

John Dehlin [04:14:49] Okay. Okay.

Hayden Paul [04:14:50] Yeah, like you didn't ask that. You didn't ask that question specifically while I was here.

John Dehlin [04:14:54] Do you believe Gerardo lovings Zach is

Hayden Paul [04:14:57] sin not loving Zach?

John Dehlin [04:14:58] I think him living with Zach as a married people do.

Hayden Paul [04:15:01] I think him foregoing creating life is. It misses the mark? Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [04:15:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:15:10] And so we've already established that Christianity doesn't have the same view. Like Jesus said, there's no marriage in heaven. Like, if you read what Jesus actually said, like, we're not married in that.

Hayden Paul [04:15:24] That is an interpretation that you can take from what he said.

John Dehlin [04:15:27] Yeah, just like you guys made interpretations about three degrees of glory and whatever. Right. Like, that's part of the problem with scripture is we're all just bringing our own interpretations to it. But I. I guess. I guess your. Your cosmology and your theology is based on sometimes Jesus, sometimes the Bible, and then sometimes it's the Book of Mormon, and then sometimes it's Joseph Smith. And part of the problem there is there's so much evidence that Joseph Smith wasn't a credible person to an objective viewer, and there's so much evidence that the Book of Mormon is not in any way a historical document, but instead is objective, a work of fiction that you're building your theology on, on foundations that are deeply problematic at best.

Hayden Paul [04:16:25] Well, I'm also using reason and rationality and trying to make sense of things. And that's one of the main things that Ed, when I went through my period of time of, like, really digging into stuff, like some of the main things that got me to be like, no, this. I believe that this is the way are the things that we've been talking about now is we don't believe in a God that created everything out of nothing. The implications of that are, frankly, what you talk about, generally speaking, about the issues that you see with religion and stuff like that are implications based on the idea that God created everything out of nothing. And I feel like as we've had our conversation, I've had to re. Remind you that that is not the conceptualization of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And to me, the reason I accepted that wasn't just because it was written on pretty papers or because Joseph Smith said it out loud. That's where I got the ideas from. But I've been checking that with my creator.

John Dehlin [04:17:20] I'm not sure anything that I've said has been rooted in the idea that God created stuff from nothing.

Hayden Paul [04:17:25] Well, you were saying, well, why would God create this person to do this? Or why would God create this system in order to have this happen? That would mean that he created out of nothing.

John Dehlin [04:17:36] I see.

Hayden Paul [04:17:36] Does that make sense? And that's a fundamental difference between us and the rest of Christianity. And that's why I choose this instead of the rest of Christianity. And I'm not just accepting it because that's what's written down on a page, like I said, or because in the King Falls discourse, Joseph Smith said that. I may have gotten the ideas from there, but I ponder them deeply in my heart, and then I check them with my Creator, who I believe exists, and I. I find confirmation in that.

John Dehlin [04:18:00] Okay. Okay. Is it okay if we jump to some of the other questions that. I mean, I know. I know that in your view, there are foundational things at the root that then help make discussions around the branches more useful, and I want to be respectful to that. At the same time, there are things that you would say at the branches or at the branches that the rest of us consider to be at the root. So I would love to ask you some questions that I think are at the root, because if Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon, if there were no. If there was no Alma or Mosiah.

Hayden Paul [04:18:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:18:37] Then quoting from them is kind of just quoting fiction. It's not quoting reality.

Hayden Paul [04:18:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:18:43] And if Joseph Smith was a sexual predator, he probably wasn't a prophet. And so whatever cosmology he came up with is probably tainted or suspect because he's, you know, because of those things. And so that's why things that you think are at the branches, maybe people like us would. Would say are at the root. Right.

Hayden Paul [04:19:04] Yeah. And I guess. Sorry, were you gonna say something?

Jackson Paul [04:19:08] Well, I. I think it's the reason that we want to talk about the roots so much is because what we see happening is like, for example, one of the things that has troubled me so greatly since that conversation that we had at lunch is when we asked you, what is the thing you miss most about the LDS Church? You said, being a part of a community based on good morals and that you have tried time and time again to recreate such a community in a secular form, and that it never, ever works and always dilutes into drinking, drugs or swinging.

John Dehlin [04:19:48] Okay, that's your restatement of the conversation. If that's incorrect, I understand how you piece that together. There's no way on earth. I said exactly what you just said. There's a lot of nuance and subtlety to that conversation that we had. I will. So I'll let. Can I speak for myself?

Jackson Paul [04:20:08] No, I'm asking you to clarify it.

John Dehlin [04:20:10] Okay. So what I would say is I definitely miss a lot about the community of the church. I think the church excels at creating community, community that can be very nurturing and, and supportive in raising a family and having a family in doing life. So I will absolutely give the church strong marks in terms of a certain type of community that it creates. And I do miss that. So that part of what you said I agree with. But there are some caveats. The community can be very superficial. So try getting excommunicated or try saying in church that you don't believe what some of the prophets say, that community can disappear very quickly. Or try being gay like Gerardo and marrying your partner and showing up at church and wanting to be a member in full standing, and you can see that community evaporate very quickly. So, yes, Mormonism was a phenomenal community for me as a white, straight, heterosexual, cisgender male with pioneer heritage. But I would have also said in that conversation that the community that I experienced as deeply gratifying and supportive can be deadly, literally deadly for somebody with a different color skin or a different gender or a different sexual orientation or different gender identity. So I. That's an important caveat that I would have said then. And it's important for me to say no. That's the first thing. The second thing is I did not, I would not say that Mormons are on average more moral than ex Mormons. I would say that on average Mormons, active, faithful, believing Mormons probably drink less than ex Mormons. And the extent to which alcohol can be harmful, okay? So Mormons, on average, probably who are active and faithful, have less alcohol problems. I would, I would say that's true. Right? We only have to look to Hulu to know that Mormons can be swingers. So while I have noticed that sometimes there's sexual experimentation outside of, of orthodox Mormonism or drug use or alcohol use or whatever, that's also inside Mormonism. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't be comfortable with that characterization that only, only ex Mormons, for example, would participate in non monogamy.

Jackson Paul [04:22:42] And I'm not saying that, Okay?

John Dehlin [04:22:45] I just want to clarify.

Jackson Paul [04:22:46] This is why I'm asking you to clarify what you're saying.

John Dehlin [04:22:49] Okay? Also, there's different types of morality, right? So faithful Mormons can be Involved in financial fraud. Like you ask an expert in financial fraud from New York, what state is kind of per capita, the capital financial fraud? They're going to say Utah. Try it. And that's a different type of morality. So active faithful Mormons can have significant moral problems too, or mental health problems. Whether it's prescription drug abuse, whether it's pornography addiction or use. There are lots of societal ills that active faithful Mormons. A child abuse. Child abuse is rampant within active faithful Mormonism by any measure.

Hayden Paul [04:23:37] By what standard is it?

John Dehlin [04:23:38] Go to the FBI and look at per capita reports of child sexual abuse. Utah comes up very high in the, in the rankings from what I understand, talking to people in the FBI that investigate child abuse. Fact check me if I'm wrong. Yeah, please. Correct.

Hayden Paul [04:23:55] Well, it's just, it's really important. Like when you're gonna make a statement like that. Like that's a really bold statement and so you should have the source.

John Dehlin [04:24:02] Okay, so I'll just say, don't believe me? Look that up. That's my understanding.

Hayden Paul [04:24:06] Like a really big thing to say. You say that about the Catholic Church because there have been tons of reports and you can see the actual sources.

John Dehlin [04:24:13] Oh, well, you, you, I, I guarantee you there have been tons of reports of, of child sexual abuse within Mormon. I'm sure. But just look at the Boy Scouts of America. Boy Scouts of America. I think there's 80,000 Mormon reports of child sexual abuse just in the Boy Scouts of America case alone. Like the Boy Scouts of America went bankrupt. The Mormon Church offered something like $200 million in a settlement because it acknowledged that there were something like 80,000 reports of child sexual abuse in Mormon Boy Scout troops. I have to say that that's objective. That's not me making stuff up. Right. That's why the Boy Scouts of America has had to declare bankruptcy. We were like 20 to 30% of the boy Scouts of America. Do the math. Like, anyway, I'm, I, if I'm wrong, correct me. I'm just trying to say that your point about morals. I would have never said that Mormons are more moral than ex Mormons. I will say that at times I've been frustrated with how, with how sometimes when people leave a high demand religion, their lives can experience a lot of sadness and suffering. That, you know, that maybe they or I have been able to avoid living Mormon standards to some degree. But again, there's plenty of drug addicts who are active, faithful Mormons, tons of prescription drug abusers who are active, faithful Mormons, et cetera et cetera. So it's just complicated. So I'm pushing back on the way you summarized because there's nuances and subtleties. But where I will agree with what you said in your characterization of what I said is I miss community. And I will agree that when I've tried to help create secular community in the post Mormon community, it's almost impossible. I mean, we've been able to do it, but not large groups of people meeting with frequencies that are regular in large groups for an extended period of time. And I would say part of the reason why is you need a common theology, you need a common set of myths, you need almost, almost a patriarchal order that's obedience based, with even a potential decent level of guilt and shame as sort of ingredients to make a large religious community thrive. And post Mormonism just doesn't have that. And so I think there's still a lot of post Mormons that miss community and haven't been able to figure out a formula to create a community that's sustainable, that can replace what they enjoyed in the church. So I don't know. That's a lot of words, but that's how I would frame what you took from our conversation.

Jackson Paul [04:27:09] So anyway, I mean, I just find, because it's so intriguing that you've tried time and time again and it never, and it never works because. And you're focusing on, and it needs to be built on guilt and shame. How about it's built on love and faith. How about it's built on building and aspiring towards something better. How about it's built on the idea that we can become greater than ourselves, that we currently are, that we don't have to be defined by our mistakes in the past, but that we can repent and become new creatures ever more willing to do good, aspiring to help others, to aspire to be charitable. You know what I'm saying? And so why that is so concerning to me is because, like, you can say what you want about your efforts, but there's no, there's no denying that this is the place of deconstruction. This is the place of deconstruction to where people will come to, you know, you'll, you'll take an engine and you'll, you know, let's say there's something wrong with it. You'll take it all apart and then

Hayden Paul [04:28:23] you'll be like, look, it was wrong.

Jackson Paul [04:28:26] We'll see ya. And then now it's just, okay, here's your engine.

Hayden Paul [04:28:32] Thanks for watching.

Jackson Paul [04:28:33] So for me, it doesn't really make sense. You wouldn't be doing this if you didn't think that there was something better, a better way of life, a better. A better thing to build your foundation on. It wouldn't really make sense for me.

Hayden Paul [04:28:49] So what. What is.

Jackson Paul [04:28:50] So what is that better thing to build your life on if it is not the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

John Dehlin [04:28:58] Yeah. So this is where I'm the most Mormon of all. Because what Mormonism taught me is that life should be built on truth, not error or lies. So, like, I. I love this idea of self improvement, of faith, of hope, of kindness, of community. And I think ex Mormonism, post Mormonism, secularism believes in large on all those things too. But what I. What I learned from Mormonism is the wise man builds his house upon a rock. Rock. And what I was taught by Mormonism is truth is. Is the rock.

Hayden Paul [04:29:43] Well, no, who is the rock? Is a person.

John Dehlin [04:29:45] Actually, that's an interpretation.

Hayden Paul [04:29:47] But no, it says it explicitly. A name for Christ is the rock.

John Dehlin [04:29:52] That's fine, that's fine. But. But Mormonism taught me that. That truth matters.

Hayden Paul [04:29:57] Yes. Trademark Truth Matters podcast.

John Dehlin [04:30:00] Yeah, no, I mean, I'm joking, but one of my favorite hymns was. Oh, say what is truth? Say what is truth? Is the fairest gem that the riches of men can produce. And price is the value of truth will be when the proud monarch's costly diadem is counted. But dross and refuse osay what is true Tis the last and the first. Right? It's everything. So what do you do? What do you do? If you believe it, if you love it, if you fit in it, and then you find out that so much of what you were taught that isn't true. What do you do? That's the problem. So, yes, yes, do I do. I love your vision of. Instead of deconstructing an engine, a vision of a community built on self. Self development and creation and growth. Yes, I love that. Right? But. But what do you do when your cousin or your son or your friend comes to you and says, I'm gay? The church taught me that it was an abomination to be gay. But I can't change. I served a mission, I prayed, I had three callings. I got married to a woman and it doesn't go away and I just want to kill myself, which many, many, many gay people have done. Many, many gay Mormons have done. And then you get a PhD in psychology and you realize that they don't change. I. I surveyed 1612 current and former Mormons. You know, how many were, you know, what percentage who tried to change their sexual orientation were able to get rid of their same sex attraction? Give me a number.

Hayden Paul [04:31:45] I don't know. I'm not gonna guess.

John Dehlin [04:31:46] Zero percent, right? Zero percent. And instead they wanted to die. If it was a choice of. If it was a choice of being faithful and loving people that they were repulsed by, or living a life of aloneness and solitude, or dying, they would have chose dying. So. So if that's 5 to 15% of God's creation, right, and these people want to die, what do we do with that? Do we just go, oh, Gerardo, you're sinning, you're. You're missing the mark, right? When he says, if I do it your way, then I'm. I'm dying. And trust me, thousands and thousands and thousands have chosen to die long before Mormon Stories podcast ever existed. So what do I do with that? I go study what science says. Not what Spence W. Kimball said in Miracle Forgiveness, that the church is no longer printing because now they realize it was so harmful even though it devastated decades of Mormon gay people. Right. And straight people. I go to science and find out that homosexuality is natural. It's even in the animal kingdom. So I'm going with that truth because then Gerardo's loving who he wants to love and he's not dead. So yeah, call that deconstruction, call that tearing the engine apart. But what Mormon Stories did for Gerardo is after his engine was long torn apart by wanting to die, it allowed him to build a big beautiful engine with Zach and a big beautiful life together. So it wasn't just deconstruction. Deconstruction was a step in the path, but it was a creative deconstruction that allowed for the construction of a beautiful, inspiring love story. So it's not just the deconstruction, it's life giving construction. It's just constructed in a way that doesn't conform to your interpretations of Genesis, which we don't even know who wrote, by the way. That's my answer. And I. You're asking it sincerely, can you understand where I'm coming from?

Hayden Paul [04:34:13] Oh yeah, no, I totally understand. And I there. I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks that we should create an environment for anyone, no matter their sexual proclivities, where they want to kill themselves because they feel like they don't have a community or a place. I don't think anyone says that or if they do, we vehemently disagree with that. The how many people are not Gerardos that just come here, they decons, their whole faith gets deconstructed, and they don't have the wherewithal to construct something new.

John Dehlin [04:34:55] Well, first of all, I've tried really hard to support construction. Lots of my episodes have been about. There's a whole Thrive series that my wife was leading, which was Reconstruction after Mormonism. What I found is that people who leave a high demand religion want to do their own construction. They don't necessarily want some white middle aged dude to tell them how to reconstruct their lives. They do it on their own. So it, but, but I, I, I created a whole podcast called the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. And it was all about having a healthier marriage after you lose your faith, being a better parent after you lose your faith, having better mental health after you lose your faith, having better sexuality after you lose your faith, finding community after you lose your faith. I've, I've done all that I could. That's my answer.

Purpose of Mormon Stories and Deconstruction

Hayden Paul [04:35:48] So would you say then that the fundamental purpose of the of Mormon stories is to deconstruct people's faith in the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints?

Gerardo Sumano [04:35:55] No.

John Dehlin [04:35:56] The purpose of Mormon stories is to help people base their lives on the truth. Because do you guys realize that for 150 years we were lied to about the Church's origins?

Hayden Paul [04:36:09] Do you realize that the tr. The truth is as you, as you see it too?

John Dehlin [04:36:13] No. No, no, no, no, no. I was never taught that there were nine versions of the first vision and that it changed according to Joseph Smith's evolving concept of God. I was never taught that Joseph used a stone and a hat where the plates weren't even in the room to create the Book of Mormon. That was withheld from me. I was never told that one of the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon said that Joseph made up the Melchizedek priesthood years after he claimed to have created it. That, that, that came later. I was never taught that the, that the Mormon temple ceremony was literally adopted from the Masada, a secular ceremony. There's so much I was never taught that was kept from me. It was hidden from me.

Hayden Paul [04:37:01] Did other people know about it?

John Dehlin [04:37:02] Yes. Fawn Brody wrote no man knows my history in 19.

Hayden Paul [04:37:06] How did she get to it if it was hidden? How did she know about, about this?

John Dehlin [04:37:08] She went to archives and studied stuff and then the church.

Hayden Paul [04:37:13] So you're telling me that before the Internet, there wasn't as much information that you were privy to, and when the Internet came out, now there's more information and so that's because they were hiding.

John Dehlin [04:37:22] I learned from reading books. But most of the books that told the truth about the Church's history were people that the Church excommunicated, like Von Brody, like Michael Quinn, and like Grant Palmer, like Simon Southerton. And more importantly, I was conditioned from a baby to never listen to or read anything from an apostate. So even once I learned that a book called no Man Knows My History Existed, I was taught from a baby that that's the last thing I should ever do is read something by the Tanners or Fawn Brody. So how were you supposed to learn if the Church wasn't teaching you? And if the Church taught you to never read something that's quote, anti Mormon, you tell me how I was supposed to learn what. What now we've learned. Yeah, well, without disobeying the Church, I,

Hayden Paul [04:38:15] I also, I think it's fair to say, like, if you're an organization, how much information? Because, you know, I've obviously read your bite. The, the bite model that you always talk about, right? And you, you. The I stands for control of information, right? And so it's like when you are an organization, how you can't put your time and efforts into sharing all the information, especially when there's so much information. So you have to pick and choose and be judicious. Now, if people of that faith believe that that thing is true, which they are espousing, then they're going to pick the things that, that, that seem to make the most, like, because of all of the information and because of the lack of the Internet, which is a huge. It's a huge innovation that you can't, like, put to the side. Like, there's only so much that they're going to spend trying to teach everybody. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [04:39:08] It makes sense. Let me tell you a counter.

Hayden Paul [04:39:10] But that's not necessarily a hide, a hiding. That's a completely different motivation from, like, we need to hide all this.

John Dehlin [04:39:16] They did hide. Joseph Fielding Smith literally came upon the 1832 version of the First. The First Vision and ripped it out of a book. And he hid it until the Tanners shamed him into making it public.

Hayden Paul [04:39:28] How'd the Tanners find out about it?

John Dehlin [04:39:29] Through a. I don't. I don't know, through like an inside source from the Church.

Hayden Paul [04:39:33] But how did Joseph, if he was hiding it, how did they find out by the inside?

John Dehlin [04:39:36] Someone who had been in church archives knew about it existing.

Hayden Paul [04:39:40] And how'd they know that Joseph filling Smith hit it?

John Dehlin [04:39:44] Because he could. He Was church historian. He controlled the journal. And once he was asked about it, the. The account was miraculously taped back into the journal after he was confronted about it. I don't know the details. Go read about it. But. But if it's your position that the church didn't hide things. Yeah, I think you need to study church history more. Like, learn about Leonard Arrington and the Camelot years of the church history from 1972 to 1982 and how he started coming out with factual history, like Brigham Young chewed tobacco or the Joseph Smith drank wine when he was martyred. All this stuff to be hidden.

Hayden Paul [04:40:25] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:40:25] And the church got nervous that he was uncovering truth. And they literally shut down the entire history department and shipped those people off to BYU because they didn't want the truth being told to the members. So there's just no question that the church is systematically hid its factual history from its members, especially in my day. And so what do you do with that? What do you. What do you. What am I supposed to do with that?

Hayden Paul [04:40:54] Yeah, I think. And I, I totally understand. And that's why, like, I don't, like,

John Dehlin [04:40:59] y' all grew up after we made all this stuff available and forced the church to come clean. You grew up in the age of the gospel topics essays. Literally, you're getting off your mission, and the gospel topics essays are there before you ever read the CPS letter. What y' all don't realize is that's not the world we grew up in.

Hayden Paul [04:41:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:41:18] You are benefiting from the sacrifices we made to make the church start to be honest with. With the world. Do you realize that?

Hayden Paul [04:41:28] I think that that is a. That is a way that you can interpret that. You said. I don't think that that's. I think it's more nuanced than that. I think that when we're dealing with the faults. So, like, even when it comes to, at the end of the day, every single person that has held the stewardship of a general authority, of an apostle, a bishop, stake president, you, me, whatever, we all have to stand before God and give an accounting of our actions.

John Dehlin [04:42:04] Yeah, I understand.

Hayden Paul [04:42:05] Like, so if, if that, if it comes down to that, like, let me. Let me share a way. And this was something. Because I saw the messiness. I see the messiness of all of this. And like, I, I, I listened to the Sandra Tanner episodes and stuff like that, you know, four or five years ago when I was going through everything. This is how I kind of conceptualize it, and it's pretty raw to me. Right now, because I just barely experienced this with my wife three days ago. I look at the coming forth of the Church of the United States of America, of any institution like childbirth. If you look at just the individual facts of childbirth, it's gross, it's disgusting, it doesn't sound good. But why do we say that childbirth is beautiful? It's because of what comes of it, it's the context of it all. And so if you divorce childbirth, you can, you can break it down to its individual facts of there's bleeding, there's tearing, there's fluids, there's screaming, there's crying, there's sweating. Each of those individually on their own. If I were to tell you, hey, do you want to experience something that is going to cause you to bleed, maybe defecate? All of these sort of things, right? You'd be like, no, that sounds terrible. And it's because it's divorced from the context of what's happening. But once you realize that a divine child, a child is being brought into the world, then all of that together, you can look at it as beautiful. What I think has happened with you, John, and with a lot of people, is you get so caught up in the afterbirth that you neglect the baby and it dies. And I think that the baby is being the divine baby of the restoration is being thrown out with the afterbirth.

John Dehlin [04:43:55] Okay, they. I appreciate that metaphor. I love babies, I love life. And I. I don't think we see the world differently from the standpoint of seeing the good in the world and valuing it. I see the good in Mormonism. I see that it creates good people, a lot of good people who are honest and kind. I see that creates a lot of strong, solid families. I see that it does a lot of good in the world. I don't. I do not have it as a goal to take people out of the Mormon Church. Anytime I've coached or counseled somebody who's told me they're doubting or questioning or considering leaving, I don't tell them they should leave. I say, as long as you can stay, you probably should. I acknowledge that there's a lot of good in the church. And I don't ever tell someone I think they should leave. And I don't believe that people who love and value the church should leave it. And I want the church to grow and thrive and be healthy. That's my motivation.

Hayden Paul [04:45:02] You kind of have other people come on the channel and tell people to leave the church. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [04:45:09] That's not why I bring them off,

Hayden Paul [04:45:10] but it's like you can only pick so many oranges from a lemon tree before you have to be like, oh, this isn't a lemon tree.

John Dehlin [04:45:16] Well, I'll just tell you what my motivation is, and I'm going to use a different. I'm going to try and borrow your example. Okay. Let's say that there's a woman who has a medical condition where if she gets pregnant, she dies. As beautiful as that baby is, as wonderful as life is, do you think the woman. If a doctor knows she's got the condition that she's going to die if she tries to have a baby and the baby's going to die, too, should she be told that before she decides whether or not to have a baby? Or should that information be kept from her because babies are beautiful?

Hayden Paul [04:45:52] No, she should be told for sure.

John Dehlin [04:45:53] Okay, so I'm speaking in parables now, just like Jesus, right? Let's do another example. Let's say that you're going to sell a car. Okay. And you know that the transmission's broken, that the brakes don't work, that the. The cylinders are about to go, and that the electrical wiring is all shot. But the. No, but that they're not going to, in a test drive, really be able to detect any of that. Right. Maybe for some, it's going to be deadly. Right. If you're to withhold that information from them knowingly and just focus on how beautiful the paint job is, how smooth the drive is, how well it's rated, but you're withholding the significant problems. Is that fundamentally immoral to withhold that information from people?

Hayden Paul [04:46:51] It would be. And I'm just saying that I think that the paint job sucks, that the interior kind of stinks sometimes, but the interior. And it will get you to where you want to go.

John Dehlin [04:47:01] It will get. It might get you. It might get you where you want to go. But what I don't think you've spent. I don't see that you all spend a lot of time thinking about is what about the woman who. Who actually doesn't enjoy raising children? What about the woman that really, really is going to enjoy having a career, but either doesn't want to have kids or can't have kids? How confident are you that being an active, faithful Mormon is going to actually be a healthy, positive thing for that woman? Or what about Gerardo and Zach, who didn't choose to be gay? Even the church will now acknowledge that people don't choose to be gay. It's as biological as the Animal kingdom is biological and they're going to want to die if they follow the plan of salvation, right? Or a person that really, really values science and isn't able to read Doctrine and Covenants and just go, oh whatever, 7,000 years, oh seven deadly heresies, evolution. But instead they really care about science. And now they're being told that if they go with science they're not a member who's legitimate and maybe they'll lose their temple recommend because they're teaching things that are contrary to the gospel. I could name you all sorts of examples of types of people who are harmed by the same church that you know you are helped by.

Hayden Paul [04:48:38] Well, go ahead.

Jackson Paul [04:48:40] What I would say is the church is for everyone in the sense that everyone is welcome. And when I say, I want to say actually Jesus Christ, following the commandments of Jesus Christ, because that's how I see it, right? Everyone is welcome to come unto him, come into Christ and be perfected in him, as it says in the Book of Mormon. But it is not for everyone in the sense of I, I see it less as a social club the church and more of like the Navy Seals spiritually. And so obviously someone that does not want to follow the commandments of Jesus Christ. It's not going to work for them if they don't have a desire to forego the natural man and yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit. It's not going to work for them.

John Dehlin [04:49:32] And I, I, I know you're coming from a sincere and even a humble place when you say that you haven't lived what it's like to be gay.

Jackson Paul [04:49:40] I have not.

John Dehlin [04:49:41] And you haven't lived what it's like to be a divorced woman in the church or a childless woman in the church, or a woman who wants a career in the church, or a black person in the church in the 50s that's told that they're black because they were less valiant in the pre existence and all the prophets are saying that you have so much privilege as a white, straight, cisgender, married male who's Mormon that you just haven't experienced the suffering of others. And so you don't mean it in a glib, insensitive way to say that Mormonism is for the elite and everybody else is going to find their little happy place in an inferior kingdom. But the gospel is for those who are really, really committed and strong and, and, and faithful. You, you, you know, you could only say that because you don't have to endure what other people do to try and be Faithful to Mormon. Because it literally. The church was made for you, Jackson. For you. For white, straight, heterosexual, cisgender men.

Jackson Paul [04:50:52] In your opinion.

John Dehlin [04:50:53] Yeah.

Jackson Paul [04:50:53] In your opinion.

John Dehlin [04:50:54] Yeah.

Hayden Paul [04:50:55] Because there's a lot of people that aren't.

Jackson Paul [04:50:56] Here's the thing.

Hayden Paul [04:50:57] Our demographic that finds insane fulfillment in the church.

John Dehlin [04:51:01] I know.

Hayden Paul [04:51:01] And you have. You have people. And like, I'm not saying that this is.

John Dehlin [04:51:05] But you're devaluing. You're devaluing. There's a lot of people that the church makes them want to die.

Hayden Paul [04:51:10] It's not a value judge.

John Dehlin [04:51:11] There's a lot of people who the church makes want to die, who the church makes miserable. And what your plan of salvation doesn't allow for is for the salvation of those people if they're being authentic to themselves. Gerardo has to give up Zach in the afterlife to live the Marines, Green Beret, Mormonism that you're espousing. Gerardo doesn't want to go to that heaven.

Hayden Paul [04:51:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:51:41] That's not heaven to Gerardo.

Hayden Paul [04:51:43] I know. Isn't that the whole conceptualization of the plan of salvation?

John Dehlin [04:51:47] But in their mind, sure is that there are the superior path.

Hayden Paul [04:51:51] Well, don't look at it that way. Don't look at it as up type thing. It's a side by side. You just get what you want. Like we. We talked about that.

John Dehlin [04:52:02] Yeah. But your way gets you to become a God who has all power, but also has to.

Hayden Paul [04:52:09] Has to feel all sorrow like one thing. And we got sidetracked. Like God cries in the pearl of great price because of the wickedness of his. Like, with great power comes great responsibility. And so it's just like at the end of the day, like, we all just get what we want.

John Dehlin [04:52:26] Right.

Hayden Paul [04:52:26] But you know, it's not a value. It's not a value like who's more valuable? It's a what do you want?

John Dehlin [04:52:33] But. But again, in. In your Mormon heaven, everyone who doesn't follow the Mormon path can't be with their family in the afterlife. That's literally what.

Hayden Paul [04:52:42] Not that they can't. They won't be. Yeah, they would choose to. Not God will. No, God will not.

John Dehlin [04:52:47] The laws of Mormon cosmology will make it so.

Hayden Paul [04:52:50] No, they will divide each other from each other. That's what I'm saying.

John Dehlin [04:52:53] No, the laws of your Mormon cosmology will prevent people who don't choose to be Mormon from being with their family in the afterlife. You can't argue with that.

Jackson Paul [04:53:03] The logistics of how. It's okay. Celestial over here.

Hayden Paul [04:53:06] Wall.

Jackson Paul [04:53:07] Terrestrial wall. Celestial. Like the logistics of how that all works out. I maybe people have tried to provide answers for it about geographic locations and stuff like that. However, essentially the way that the I see the plan of salvation and the path that Jesus Christ laid out for us is that we have the opportunity to follow him if we want. But in the very end we will get exactly what we want. Does that make sense? But there's justice and mercy.

John Dehlin [04:53:44] What if I want to be a God, but I don't want to be Mormon in the afterlife? Then.

Hayden Paul [04:53:48] Then. Well, it's not. I don't think. I don't think there's something called Mormons.

John Dehlin [04:53:53] What if I don't follow Mormonism in the afterlife, but I want to be

Jackson Paul [04:53:56] a God, will I get replace that with Jesus Christ?

Hayden Paul [04:53:59] Because that's all. That's all the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [04:54:02] That's the thing. There's lots of people that love Jesus. Most of the Christian world loves Jesus Jesus. And they're not going to be in the celestial kingdom because they don't believe in Joseph Smith and they don't believe in proxy work for the dead and the Book of Mormon and all these things. And they don't choose to get a Mormon temple marriage and a Mormon endowment. So most of the Christian world love Christ, follow Christ, but they won't be exalted like you guys, I think. And they'll want to be exalted. Who doesn't want to be a God? They'll be prevented from being a God because narrow is the way. Because that's the scripture that you interpreted by Jesus and because Mormon cosmology prevents them from becoming gods or even being with their family in the afterlife. You're changing Mormonism to say that somehow maybe they'll be with their families. They won't.

Hayden Paul [04:54:51] No, no. You misconstrued like the, the C.S. lewis thing that I shared. What I was saying is that people will divide themselves.

John Dehlin [04:55:00] Yes, that's blame reversal. You're basically saying it's their fault. They'll choose to not be with their family because they don't choose to be committed enough to Christ. They're choosing to be separate from their family.

Hayden Paul [04:55:11] But isn't that what's happening today?

John Dehlin [04:55:14] No. In today's world, plenty of people that love their. There's plenty of atheists that would die to stay with their family, but they just don't believe in Jesus or Mormon Jesus. Yeah, they're not choosing to be apart from their family. They're choosing not to believe something where there's a lot of reason not to Believe it.

Hayden Paul [04:55:31] So, but, but the point is, is like if, if I want to go to a place where there are certain, where there are certain standards to abide by, and you don't want to abide by those standards, then what do we do at that point? I either want like, what do we do at that point? And that's what I'm saying. It's like, are there not standards? Like, and what.

John Dehlin [04:55:53] But the question is, is how do we trust Joseph Smith as the determiner of those standards when we knew that he married over 30 women, lied to his wife about it, married 14 year olds, married mother, daughter pairs, mothered sister pairs, created a scripture like the Book of Abraham that he claimed was a translation, but now we know it wasn't. Created a Book of Mormon that we now know isn't a historical document. But, but he claimed that it was, was a treasure digger, engaged in folk magic, committed financial fraud. Like, how, how can any of us have confidence that we should base our cosmology on that man to individually work

Jackson Paul [04:56:39] out our salvation, but with fear and trembling for before God, you, you with a lot of these things. You say, we know that the Book of Mormon isn't a historical.

John Dehlin [04:56:49] We do. We do. Everyone but Mormons know that. Everyone but Mormons know that.

Hayden Paul [04:56:53] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:56:54] No, I'm serious. There literally isn't a Mormon alive that, a non Mormon alive that views the Book of Mormon as historical. Because.

Hayden Paul [04:57:01] Because historical. Because if, if the Book of Mormon's historical, then you're going to make changes. There's so many people that started off not believing it's historical.

John Dehlin [04:57:09] Why? It's because it's got horses and wheat and steel. That's real. That's a real thing. And because the, the genetics of the Native Americans go to Asia, not Israel. Like those are. That's science. I understand why you guys go. I don't know. Six thousand, a billion. We don't know evolution. I'm not sure. You have to hold science loosely because if you hold science tightly, you can't accept core scripture. That's why you guys sort of like hold science super loosely.

Book of Mormon Evidence and Apologetics

Hayden Paul [04:57:36] When was the last time you read the book of Mormon?

John Dehlin [04:57:41] 2001. I mean, like cover to cover.

Hayden Paul [04:57:44] Yeah, 2001. And so like, and this is like. And I hope you take this, I hope you take this to heart because I think this is an important criticism of the show. You are talking about something you don't know anything about. Like, if I were to. I do. You know what? I actually, I didn't read anything in 2001. Because I was too young. But I read Huck Finn in high school. Should I start a podcast on Huck Finn and talk about it day in, day out and never read it again? And just try to rely on my memory and, and going here and there and picking out certain passages and paragraphs from Huck Finn? It's like, it'd be a lot easier to take your criticism of the book Mormon seriously if you were, like, reading it at least, you know, once every couple years.

John Dehlin [04:58:30] Dude, I read the Book of Mormon probably 14 times by the time I was 31. I read it sufficiently to meet whatever criteria you want to impose upon.

Hayden Paul [04:58:40] So 20 years, 23 years later, you have the same recollection of the scriptures as you did in 2001.

John Dehlin [04:58:46] You're avoiding the scientific problems with the Book of Mormon. I don't, I don't. You're basically saying that you have to read the Book of Mormon until you're dead or you can't have a valid view of its science. Like, so why. Explain to me this. Why do Nephites know the name of Jesus before Jews in the Old World, before Jesus is even born? Why. Why weren't Jews in the Old World taught the name of Jesus? Why weren't Jews in the Old World baptizing with faith and repentance and the gift of the Holy Ghost? Why weren't they in the Old world? Why are.

Hayden Paul [04:59:22] Do you want me to answer these questions?

John Dehlin [04:59:23] I'm just, I'm just finishing it. Why are Native Americans, before Jesus is even born, preaching 19th century Protestant sermons? Explain that.

Hayden Paul [04:59:33] Okay, first, Jesus, Nephites. Do you know what Jesus means? Like the name Jesus,

John Dehlin [04:59:42] Joshua.

Hayden Paul [04:59:43] So Joshua, do you know what Yeshua means in Hebrew, means savior? So Jesus Christ means the anointed savior. So if you're translating something and it's written so it's interesting, because Jesus Christ is like, they're talking about a kid

John Dehlin [05:00:00] born in Bethlehem, Jerusalem.

Jackson Paul [05:00:02] Who.

Hayden Paul [05:00:02] Who is what? The anointed savior. But so what I'm saying, this is

John Dehlin [05:00:07] Christianity before Christianity was even invented.

Hayden Paul [05:00:11] Well, so, and, and dude, we could go into. And I, I recommend anyone go to the Stick of Joseph and listen to our interviews that we've done with Mike Day, Dave Butler on the Book of Mormon and that, like, I'm telling you,

John Dehlin [05:00:28] you don't see a problem with people being Christian before Jesus was born? Native Americans.

Hayden Paul [05:00:33] No, I don't.

John Dehlin [05:00:33] Being Christian?

Hayden Paul [05:00:34] No, I don't. Because. And Jesus didn't really. Like, there's so many. And this is what's so fascinating, why I Love the Bible, the New Testament and the Old Testament. There's a lot of interesting questions. Like for example, there are references in the New Testament that seem to be referring to, to passages about Christ, pre Christ, but we don't have those in the Old Testament. So where are these kings coming from?

John Dehlin [05:00:57] The Holy Ghost and 12 apostles. All that's going on in allegedly with Native Americans before Jesus is even born.

Hayden Paul [05:01:05] Well, listen, the apostles didn't happen until Christ visited the Americas, by the way.

John Dehlin [05:01:10] Okay, sorry.

Hayden Paul [05:01:11] So prophets and prophets existed before.

John Dehlin [05:01:13] So 19th century Protestant sermons are being delivered by like Mosiah and King Benjamin with, with Christian content about faith and repentance and baptism. Why is a Native American before Jesus is born delivering a 19th century Protestant sermon?

Hayden Paul [05:01:32] It's a good question. And I think that there are a lot of. And this is, like I said, this is something that it could take many, many hours to even just get into this one subject. And why I recommend people go to the stick of Joseph to watch these things.

John Dehlin [05:01:46] I'm just going to say, just to cut to the heart of it, you're, you're not going to go to the stick of Joseph and find explanations that are validated by mainstream history and science. You're going to find apologists who are Mormon who have just come up with explanations that make no sense to anyone who's not Mormon that defy history and science. Other examples, why. Why are parts of Isaiah included in the Book of Mormon that were written literally after Lehi left Jerusalem such that he couldn't have brought them with him? That's a clear example of an anachronism that disproves the text.

Hayden Paul [05:02:23] Not necessarily.

John Dehlin [05:02:24] Unless you have a magic worldview where God channels a, a version of Isaiah somehow.

Hayden Paul [05:02:30] Are you familiar with what the documentary hypothesis is?

John Dehlin [05:02:33] Yes.

Hayden Paul [05:02:34] What is a documentary?

John Dehlin [05:02:36] That there's multiple authors. There's multiple authors of the, of the Old Testament.

Hayden Paul [05:02:40] Yes, there's multiple authors of the Old Testamen Testament. Isaiah specifically. The question is where did the, these ideas come from? From Isaiah. So yes, there are reference.

John Dehlin [05:02:52] No, no, we're talking about Joseph Smith copying from his version of the Bible passages from Isaiah into the Book of Mormon that Lehi would not have been able to have brought over because they were written after Lehi left. That's called the deutero Isaiah problem. And it's, it's, it's a problem unless you use magical thinking to wave it away. You guys roll your eyes and say, I need to read the Book of Mormon more. I'm going to just say respectfully to you that you're relying on people that are just making up explanations to justify clear problems with the text. Clear problems. It's not because I didn't read the Book of Mormon enough. That's insulting.

Hayden Paul [05:03:33] There are. There are answers and there are also

John Dehlin [05:03:36] bad answers that defy science and history.

Hayden Paul [05:03:40] That's it. That's according to your opinion.

Jackson Paul [05:03:42] Opinion. And he wasn't saying that you didn't read enough. It's just like if you're gonna consistently criticize something that it was. It's been almost my whole lifetime since you've picked up and read it would behoove of you to actually still be familiar.

John Dehlin [05:03:57] I still read the Book of Mormon more than you have because I. Yeah, I know.

Hayden Paul [05:04:02] But you're taught your putting away the frailty of the human mind.

John Dehlin [05:04:06] No, I'm highlighting to you that the Book of Mormon has genetic problems, linguistic problems, geographical problems, historical problems, anachronisms.

Hayden Paul [05:04:16] What strengths does it have?

John Dehlin [05:04:17] That's. That's, That's. That's neglecting. The most important question for people like me is to whether or not it's true.

Hayden Paul [05:04:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:04:26] No, because I don't want to hear you quote Mosiah or Alma if Mosiah. Alma didn't exist. Unless you're telling me they're historical fictional characters and I should just take them as fiction. If they're prophets of God, I need for them to have actually existed. But all the evidence is they never existed. All the credible evidence. So that's foundational. So if the Book of Mormon and maybe Joseph Smith believed this, if the Book of Mormon makes people kinder, then it doesn't matter if it's true. I understand that point of view, but then just say it's not true. But it's got good messages. But as soon as you're going to claim it's prophets of God and a historical document, then you need to be able to back that up with science and history. No. Okay.

Hayden Paul [05:05:11] No. And okay. So there are 204 anachronisms that you've seen the list of Matthew Roper put together. Have you.

John Dehlin [05:05:18] Are you going to say that they've shrunk now?

Hayden Paul [05:05:20] Yeah, it's down to 32.

John Dehlin [05:05:21] So the early ones were not. Not. First of all, I would doubt that that number is right. But just because the earlier ones were wrong. Some of the earlier ones were wrong. That's. That's. That's apologetic spin. You're never gonna find steel in. In Mesoamerica. Like go watch the Michael.

Hayden Paul [05:05:39] There's a lot. There's a lot of reasons why you wouldn't. A big part is climate. Right. Because what happens if you put still down in the Mesoamerican jungle? It's gone in less than 100 years.

John Dehlin [05:05:51] The reason why the Book of Mormon includes wheat and barley and silk and bees and horses and cattle and sheep is because those are the animals Joseph Smith was familiar with, and so he wrote them into the Book of Mormon. We're not going to discover someday that horses and sheep and cattle and wheat and barley and silk.

Hayden Paul [05:06:09] So if we do. Or do you, then are you like, oh, maybe I need to reread the Book of Mormon?

John Dehlin [05:06:13] Yeah, I will.

Jackson Paul [05:06:14] You will?

John Dehlin [05:06:14] Absolutely, yeah. If science. If science ends up validating the validity of the Book of Mormon, if scientists stumble upon Zarahemla city limits, population 10,000. Wait, if they do, I will. I will reconvert to Mormonism. Absolutely.

Hayden Paul [05:06:31] Okay, so how many anachronisms will you allow? If there was one, though, like, if, for example, we.

John Dehlin [05:06:36] It only takes one. That's the thing. If there's a. If there's a photo of. If there's a portrait of Abraham Lincoln with an iPhone, it just takes one to know that that wasn't real. It just takes one.

Hayden Paul [05:06:46] I know, but what you're saying is that. That the archaeology of north and Central and South America is. Is so good that you're confident that everything that ever existed on this continent has been found. So if there was one anachronism like, oh, we found everything else, but we didn't find a chariot, you'd be like, well, that means the Book of Mormon's an obvious fraud.

John Dehlin [05:07:06] If. If the Book of Mormon has cell phones. If the Book of Mormon. Mention cell phones.

Hayden Paul [05:07:12] But what if it's just under the ground somewhere, bro?

John Dehlin [05:07:15] A cell phone.

Jackson Paul [05:07:16] No, that's a bad example.

Hayden Paul [05:07:18] Yeah, don't use that example.

John Dehlin [05:07:20] I'm just an example. It just takes one.

Hayden Paul [05:07:23] So if there is a cherry.

Jackson Paul [05:07:24] Okay, so what we're getting down to is, at the end of the day, I'm not going to put my trust in the arm of flesh to see when science catches up with it. Because as you say that the evidence disproves the Book of Mormon. I would say that lack of edit. Lack of evidence doesn't disprove the Book of Mormon. What I will say is I have a religious text in front of my eyes that is making some crazy claims here, and at the end of it, it is encouraging me to study these things out in my mind and eventually take it to my creator in Prayer to see if it is worth its weight in paper at all. And so obviously there's two ways of going about this academically and spiritually. But at the end of the day, dealing with something that like the nail in the coffin is it is spiritual in nature, being a believer in God and Jesus Christ and that I can go to him in prayer, I am going to pursue that route to see if it has any spiritual significance.

John Dehlin [05:08:29] And here's what I'll say. I'll say you're also putting your trust in the arm of flesh because all of your cosmology and your theology is rooted in Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and John Taylor and Wilford Woodrow. At the end of the day, like let me just finish my point, y' all are also putting your trust in the arm of flesh. You're just putting it in people that call themselves prophets. And I'm leaning more towards people, a huge scientific community that's achieved some sort of consensus. So I think we're both putting our trust in the arm of flesh for one. But secondly, I, I love, if somebody is a better person because they're religious, then I'm cool with them being religious. Right. My point with Mormon stories is people need to know about the nine versions of the first vision for informed consent. People need to know about the folk magic, treasure digging and the peep stone in the hat as a matter of informed consent. People need to know about the problems with the Melchizedek priesthood and about the temple ceremony and about Joseph sleeping with 14 year olds or 16 year olds or 18 year olds and mother daughter pairs and lying to Emma and the whole church about it. People deserve to know all that. And before Mormon stories, a lot less people knew the truth about the church. But because of Mormon stories, a lot more people now do know the truth about the church. And it's not just the history. It's also the fact that the church was killing gay people. The church was making torturing gay people to do conversion therapy when it was killing them. And now the church isn't, in part because of Mormon stories and other options like the church has been hurting women by making them second class citizens. least some women. Right? The church was racist systemically for over 150 years. Lots of people are being converted into the church right now in Africa that are not being taught that the church was systemically racist for over 150 years. People deserve to know all that, including the way the church has hidden its finances, misled the members about the finances, committed fraud, that the SEC or The IRS has acknowledged people deserve to know all that, know who Joseph Smith was, know the problems of the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants and the church history. And then they get to make an informed decision. And if they just decide that this is true for them and it's going to have them live a better life, I swear I'll be the first person to sign up and say thumbs up, because I think your earnest, kind, based, loving faith is inspiring to me. You guys are inspiring to me because you're coming to me with love. You're coming to me with respect. You guys are trying to live, be good husbands, be good fathers. I love that. I don't. If someone comes to me and says you want them to leave, I'm like, no way. You can try and get them out. No way. No. What I do want is y' all to understand where we're coming from so you stop this crap about they wanted to sin or they're trying to take people out of the church or they hate the church or they're anti Mormon. Because it's a lot more complex than that, that we deserve respect. You deserve respect. We deserve respect. That's how, that's how I see it. And I think people deserve informed consent. And if the car has a bad transmission and faulty pistons and a bad exhaust, you may say, ah, let's not mention that till they're five or ten years in. I say they deserve to know before they get baptized or before they convert.

Hayden Paul [05:12:00] Yeah, but you're also deciding what, what it. In that metaphor, you're deciding what a transmission is and what it isn't.

John Dehlin [05:12:07] Dude, if Joseph Smith married 22 women, lying to his wife about it, 14 year olds and mother, daughter pairs, people deserve to know that that's significant. When you're claiming that he is next to Jesus in importance in the eternal scheme of humanity and that, and that he brought forward God's one true church, you need to know that he was also probably sleeping with 14 year olds or 16 year olds behind his wife's back. People. That's important, right? That's.

Hayden Paul [05:12:37] That, that's not.

John Dehlin [05:12:39] Come on, dude.

Hayden Paul [05:12:39] Not as important as a central message of, of it all.

John Dehlin [05:12:43] Like they're both important. How's that? They're both essential to know.

Hayden Paul [05:12:48] Yes, but, but one of them plays a role in someone's individual salvation and the other one has to do more with Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [05:12:56] Yeah, but, but, but they build. Like if the church has said the Book of Mormon is true or it's the biggest fraud, perpetrated on the earth. Joseph Smith's a prophet or he was a charlatan.

Hayden Paul [05:13:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:13:07] So you need to gather all the facts so that you can determine whether he was a charlatan or not, whether the book's a fraud or not. Without the facts, you can't make that decision. Can't you see that? You can pray and get a feeling, but Muslims get feelings about the Quran. Catholics get feelings about the Bible. Hindus get feelings about the Vad Gita. Feelings don't determine truth.

Hayden Paul [05:13:29] I agree.

John Dehlin [05:13:30] So they need information. That's what Mormon Stories is trying to do is provide informed consent.

Hayden Paul [05:13:36] It's. It's more. It's not. Because you're not saying a Mormon Stories episode doesn't go, hey, so here are some issues, but this is also how you. How you can look at. It's like, look at this is what's good about it. Or, hey, here's some evidences in fate. Because there are evidences in favor of the Book of Mormon. Do you know that or not? Or do you think there are zero evidences in favor for the Book of Mormon?

John Dehlin [05:13:59] There's. In my view, there's no credible evidences for a historical Book of Mormon. No, Nahom is not, in my. I don't think, in anyone's view. I don't know a single secular person that's like, whoa, Nahom. Book of Mormon needs to be thought about. The National Geographic Institute or whatever. Smithsonian. They're not using the Book of Mormon to guide themselves on archaeological digs. I respectfully. I think there's a lot of historical value in the Book of Mormon. There's spiritual value that many people derive there. There's no credible evidence that the Book of Mormon's a historical document. There's negative credible evidence that the Book of Mormon is a historical document. And I mean that sincerely.

Hayden Paul [05:14:44] Yeah. So the Hebraisms are all on accident

John Dehlin [05:14:48] or swimming in the Bible. He was swimming in the Old Testament. He was studying Hebrew.

Hayden Paul [05:14:54] He was not studying. Not when the Book of Mormon came out.

Jackson Paul [05:14:58] Coincidences, Culture coincidences. So it's all based on coincidence. See that.

John Dehlin [05:15:03] That's like, there's nothing compelling about the Hebrewisms in the book in the Book of Mormon to make it a historical document. Like, chiasmus is in Dr. Seuss. Like literally chiasmus is in Dr. SeUSS. Green eggs and ham is an example of chiasmus. That doesn't make.

Jackson Paul [05:15:21] Okay, great.

John Dehlin [05:15:21] Doesn't Ham a historical document?

Jackson Paul [05:15:24] Okay, no one's saying it is. That's a poor example. Because how many years after we're talking about at the time of Joseph Smith, with the resources that he had and the education that he had, I can't put myself in the camp that he memorized 266,000 words and put in all these complex Hebraisms. I, I don't have the faith necessary to put that much weight on Joseph Smith's shoulders. And so going back to what you were saying, that I'm trusting in the arm of flesh. No, I believe in a God that gives personal revelation. And so what I have done is I have prayed to God and I feel that I have received revelation for my life. Okay. So I'm not just trusting in a, in a man's word. And yeah, I just don't, I just don't see it at Mormon Stories as this, like, innocent. Like, here's the information, here's a pamphlet so you can have all the information. Like, it's just.

John Dehlin [05:16:27] Well, you should check out Mormon stories. Prior to 2014, when they excommunicated me, I had Terrell Givens on, I had Richard Bushman on. I had, I had tons of faithful Mormons. Guess what happens when. Guess what happens to people's eagerness, faithful people's eagerness to come on a podcast when you excommunicate the host, guess what happens.

Hayden Paul [05:16:46] Yeah, goes down.

John Dehlin [05:16:47] I'm sure people are less willing or eager. Mysteriously, magically, Richard Bushman and Terrell Givens stopped wanting to come on Mormon Stories once I was excommunicated. So you got to understand there's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy there when they excommunicate you. But the entire reason I started Mormon Stories was to help people stay in the Mormon Church. It was to say, we can learn all this history and reconcile it and find a way to stay.

Hayden Paul [05:17:11] So is that still.

John Dehlin [05:17:12] I started, I started a thoughtful faith podcast. I started the website stay lds.com I wrote how to Stay in the Mormon Church after a crisis of faith. I, I did as much as I could to create a balanced podcast to help people find a way to stay in the church. So it's not like as long as I could.

Hayden Paul [05:17:33] So it's not like that anymore.

John Dehlin [05:17:34] Well, I'm having you guys on like I'm, I still have Patrick Mason on to give his best arguments. I had Jim Bennett on. I still bring on believers from time to time. I want to provide a balanced perspective. But, but no, it's not like it was because, one, I learned way more than I knew when I started. But second of all, the church has shown itself to be unworthy of my constant attempts to try and get people to stay in it. So, yes, I'm less motivated to, like, persuade people to stay Mormon, but that's after how many LGBTQ deaths, How many people leaving the church? How many divorces over mixed orientation or mixed faith marriages? Like, I've seen so much carnage. It's hard for me to, like, be a salesman for the Mormon Church. Not that I don't think there's good in it, but I'm certainly not going to tell a gay person or a feminist or someone who loves science or a black person to join the Mormon Church, should I?

Hayden Paul [05:18:34] Yeah. I mean, as my persuasions, we want to share this with everybody. And I just think with the Book of Mormon, there's so much debt. And that's why, like, I wish people. Because we're not the smartest people. We. Our whole channel is to bring on people that are smarter than us. And there are so many evidences for the Book of Mormon that are beyond coincidence of Joseph Smith putting Hebrew temple liturgy inside of the Book of Mormon, cloaking it in there, and then not saying anything about it his whole entire life, but he just, like, puts it in there and using Hebrew words that, like, that connect to the temple that weren't known at the time of Joseph Smith. Like, there's so much of that in there. And like, all I'll say is go to the Sick of Joseph on YouTube and check that stuff out. It's real, it's there. And I think, like, I would love. I would love. And I'll send you one. And if you want to take the time to listen to, I'd love to send you an episode with that talks about that. And I'd love to hear your response about how, how that could have been on accident. Because there's so much. And that's why I think it's important how much Book of Mormon scholarship has been done in the last 20 years? A lot. 23 years. But you've divorced yourself and gone into one camp, which is. I'm going to look at all of the supposed problems with the Book of Mormon, and some of them are legit. Like, I'm not saying that there aren't anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. Obviously there are, but you've stayed so heavy in that camp and you haven't been paying attention to all the other stuff that has been going on, and you haven't been reading the Book of Mormon, and I think that it would behoove you to read the Book of Mormon,

John Dehlin [05:20:30] but maybe yeah, maybe. I mean, I. I could be wrong. I could be wrong. And I haven't been studying the latest in Book of Mormon scholarship. That's true. And I encourage everyone who's curious to go to stick of Joseph and give these guys a fair shot and listen to what they have to say and listen to the people they have on, because maybe, maybe there's truth and facts and evidence there that could make people make a different decision. And that's why I'm. I'm happy to have you guys on and to plug your show, because at the end of the day, if your show is truth, I want people to know about it. That's why I'm not afraid to have you on or to have you promote your stuff. Yeah.

Hayden Paul [05:21:21] Yep.

John Dehlin [05:21:29] I got heated. I got a little heated today.

Hayden Paul [05:21:32] It's all good.

John Dehlin [05:21:32] Y' all were good sports, man.

Hayden Paul [05:21:35] Yeah, this was a. Kind of a chaotic conversation. And. I would just say you can look at the afterbirth, but don't throw out the baby. And I believe that the restoration and the truths in the conceptualization of God, the nature of Christ, the ultimate destiny of man, the plan of salvation generally is that baby of the restoration, the. The temple. And, dude, like, we can't get into all of it here, but the temple is not just a remix of freemasonry. It's much deeper than that. And it has ancient origin, a real ancient origin that you can find in ancient liturgy and in ancient texts, and you can piece it all together, and it's re. It's really there. And I would. I would highly recommend we talk about that a lot on the stick of Joseph. Like, look into the temple deeper than just like, oh, this was copied from the masons. Because it's. It's so much more than that.

Temple Ceremony, LGBTQ Issues, and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [05:22:43] No, it's definitely Genesis. Right? Genesis plus masonry stuff, plus certain aspects of, you know, it's obedience, it's consecration, it's, you know, a lot of chastity. Like, it's more than masonry. I, I. Yes, that's just. That's not my position. Yeah, Only masonry.

Hayden Paul [05:23:05] Yeah. What I'm saying, though, is that it is. It is definitely. I. I would say, like, when I started the stick of Joseph, I was still in the camp of, like, I don't know. We'll kind of check this out. And that was only a year and a half ago, but as we've dug deeper and deeper and deeper, as Jackson pointed out, I don't have the faith to explain more. And we didn't get into a ton of the. The Evidences and stuff like that. Like, we kind of got off the rails and like I said, we got to the branches, we got to the. We went to the roots for a while and then, you know, we talked just barely like superficially about the Book of Mormon. But it's legit. It really is.

Jackson Paul [05:23:45] Yeah. Yeah. I would say I believe in Christ's admonition that there will be many false prophets out there and that by their fruits you shall know them. And if you look at the fruits of the, the Latter Day Saint faith, I strongly believe that they far outweigh. And I'm not saying it's all perfect, all great. I'm saying the, the fruits are worthy to consider itself validity and that I believe that Jesus Christ did die for our sins. And I don't believe that that is something to be discussed at. I believe that that is the, the most freeing thing that I have found in my life is that I can make a mistake or someone can harm me and I can forgive them and I can be forgiven. And I'm so grateful to be surrounded by people that aspire to be greater, to, to be more charitable, to be more service oriented and to love one another greater. And I strongly believe that the Book of Mormon is an ancient document. And amen to what Hayden was saying because if you look into it deeper and take it to God in prayer, I'm excited to see what happens with you because something incredible has happened in my own life.

Hayden Paul [05:25:19] Yep. Amen. And just. I think it's important to recognize that and what I've got from our conversation, we haven't had a lot of interaction before this. It seems like a lot of your gripes that you're going for, like, yes, there's a historical stuff and things like that, but as we got and dug down to like the fundamental truths to the idea of Jesus Christ, the idea of God, objective truth, all that sort of stuff. Like it seems like the issue is with in many ways just religion, generally speaking, especially Christianity. And one of the, the problems or one of the issues that I see is you, is you take Christian theologies that you have a problem with, you attribute it specifically to the church. You take human problems like, oh, people are judgmental, people lie, people do this and do that, and you apply it to the restoration of the gospel. When it's like these are human problems or these theologies are Christian theologies. It's not just that this what you see as a, as a false LDS religion. It seems like there are deeper issues than just that.

John Dehlin [05:26:55] Well, I want to say that I have a lot of respect for you guys. I respect that you're willing to come here and be on the show. I. Everything I can sense from you is that you are sincere and you are trying to be kind and loving and care about being good humans and good husbands and, in your case, good parents, that you're willing to have respectful dialogue, even with someone that the rest of the people you associate with probably think is an evil, bad person. Like, I really respect that. I had some ground rules for our conversation, and y' all have respected that. And even when I brought heat, y' all were probably more calm and cool and collected than I was, and I respect that as well. And for me, I still love so much about the church, and I still think that so much that's good within me is from the church. And if you sense anger or if you sense passion, I hope you can just take away from this that at the core of much of my passion is a past and even a current love for so much of what the church has been and is and has been in my life and is for a lot of people that I love. And I do believe that we share many, many, many of the same goals. And I think where I differ is I. I love the baby metaphor that don't focus on the afterbirth, focus on the baby. I just don't view religion as the baby. And I'm not saying you do, but for me, life is the baby. And for me, religion can be like the salt to make a meal better. But also for some people, religion is a poison that makes life worse. And that's part of the problem is I care about LGBTQ people enough to where if the church isn't providing them with the plan of salvation that's actually workable for them and instead makes them want to die. I can't view it as a beautiful baby. I view it as poison for those people. And for me, I can't just sit and marinate in the enjoyment of religion knowing that a bunch of people I care about, it's actually lethal for them. I either want the church to make it healthy for them or that I can't be a part of it in. In all the ways and just enjoy the privilege of that. And again, the informed consent part. So I love all so many good things about the Book of Mormon, about Joseph's Book Smith, about communities and wards and service and missions. I miss all that. I think my kids would have benefited from a lot of the things that. That they would have experienced if they had stayed Mormon. But I, I, I believe that people deserve to know about what they're joining before they join. And the church has gotten better, but it has a history of either intentionally or unintentionally withholding the, the facts and the evidence from people. And for me, that, again, makes it not a beautiful baby, but instead misrepresentation, unfortunately. So I applaud the church's efforts to be more transparent with its history, with the gospel topics, essays, with the ways it's coming clean and trying to be more open and transparent. But I think that's because of people like us. And y' all can have whatever feelings you want about us. I hope you come to a point where you realize that if the church has gotten better in a lot of these areas, it's because a lot of people made sacrifices to help move the church in a more positive direction. So I can't see a beautiful baby when I see a lack of informed consent. And I can't see a beautiful baby. And it's partly informed by Jesus teaching. Leave the 99 and go after the 1. By the way, like, oh, all the white, straight Utah Mormons are fine. So the LGBTQ people and the people of color and the feminists and the intellectuals and the people who love science, that's just 1%. That's just 5%. That's, to me, that's. It's Jesus who taught me, you leave the 99 to go after the 1. So until they're all trans people and gay people and lesbian people and scientists and doubters and intellectuals and feminists and never Mormons and atheists, until they're all not just welcomed, but. But embraced and celebrated is who they are. I don't, I can't see it as a beautiful baby. I see it as a. An exclusivist community that's toxic to certain groups of people that's not being fully truthful in its history and in its claims. So I think where we can build consensus or unity is I think you want the church to be honest, and I think I do, too. I think you want the church to be healthy for people. I think I do, too. And so I ultimately see Mormon stories as trying to help the church be more LGBT friendly, more feminist friendly, more honest in its history, less racist, less homophobic, less transphobic, a better, healthier place. I'm fighting for that from outside. I see you guys are fighting from within. But I think what we want, at the end of the day, is the Mormon Church to be the healthiest place it can be. For the most amount of people.

Jackson Paul [05:33:10] With you, I think with your leaving the 99 and going after the 1 you. It doesn't mean leave Jesus Christ.

Hayden Paul [05:33:19] And that's what you did.

Jackson Paul [05:33:21] It doesn't mean leave Jesus Christ is what I'm saying. So again, obviously, I think I'm living.

John Dehlin [05:33:31] I think I'm living the principles of Jesus Christ more now than I've ever lived them.

Jackson Paul [05:33:38] Okay, but you don't believe in Jesus Christ is what you're saying.

John Dehlin [05:33:48] I think a figure named Jesus lived and I think remnants of what he taught are around. And I don't say, I don't. I don't call myself anti Christian. I don't call myself an atheist. I don't even call myself an agnostic. And I don't think of myself as rejecting and abandoning Jesus. I think of my life as being informed by the teachings of Jesus, specifically around kindness and forgiveness and love and charity and service and those sorts of things. And I think a lot of the things that you guys call Jesus is really Mormonism or the teachings of men built on top of the teachings of Jesus, respectfully. So I don't think of myself as having left Jesus. I think of my life as being probably informed more by Jesus than by any other figure that I've ever met,

Hayden Paul [05:34:36] honestly, but with one glaring fact that you don't believe that Jesus is the divine son of God and atoned for our sins, which is like the fundamental for you.

Jackson Paul [05:34:47] For you.

John Dehlin [05:34:47] Other people say the fundamental is kindness and love and faith and patience and forgiveness. You've decided, based on men that you believe in, to interpret the teachings of Jesus as. As being certain parts being essential. I don't see. I don't see necessarily Jesus requiring me and saying that. The most important thing is that you believe that Jesus was the literal son of God. I think Jesus saying, love one another, inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these my brethren, you've done it unto me. I think, I think loving each other is central Christianity for me.

Jackson Paul [05:35:35] And that's for you. What I see that as is taking the cloak of Jesus. And instead of repenting and trying to. Yeah, he said all those things to treat one another as you would want to be treated. But he also said, if you love me, keep my commandments. He set a standard while also teaching all these good things.

John Dehlin [05:35:57] I think I. I think I follow a lot of the commandments of Jesus probably as much as you guys. Jesus didn't say, don't be gay. I'm not gay, but there's a lot of things that we say or commandments that Jesus never taught.

Hayden Paul [05:36:16] I mean, you.

John Dehlin [05:36:18] Jesus never said go to the temple. Jesus never said, take out your endowments.

Hayden Paul [05:36:22] He did. He did, though. That's the thing is, like. So, for example, with. With. With the gay thing. Yeah. He doesn't explicitly say, hey, don't be gay. There's a lot of things that he does. Doesn't say specifically in there, but he does say that from the beginning. And, Jackson, do you have the scripture in Mark? I think it's Mark 10. It says, from the beginning, God has commanded man and woman to who were once twain, to become one flesh. That once were twain are now one flesh. So he's. And then he says, as God put together, let no man put asunder.

Jackson Paul [05:37:00] Yeah. Mark 10. But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. And they, they twain shall be one flesh. So they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.

John Dehlin [05:37:25] So you have to add stuff to that to say you shouldn't be gay.

Hayden Paul [05:37:29] Well, no, you have to add that.

Jackson Paul [05:37:31] You say that you. That you should.

Hayden Paul [05:37:32] Should or that you can or whatever.

John Dehlin [05:37:35] Saying it's her art is not breaking a commandment.

Gerardo Sumano [05:37:38] Okay.

John Dehlin [05:37:39] Of Jesus. Okay. Anyway, so I was trying to find common ground, and then you went back to, like, differences, and that's fine.

Jackson Paul [05:37:48] Well, we have Cameron. But the perspective of the common ground is if you believe that Jesus, a man named Jesus, lived thousands of years ago and taught people to be kind. I guess we have common ground on that part.

John Dehlin [05:38:05] Yeah.

Hayden Paul [05:38:05] But beyond that, like, I. I wouldn't even. Like. My goal isn't to work from the inside, to make the church, or more as. As you deem it, a healthy place or whatever. My goal is to put off the natural man as much as I can and to become like Christ and to bear my cross. And I have my crosses. I don't have the same cross as you or Gerardo or anybody. But that. That is what I want the church to do. I don't want the church to just make a place where everybody can feel okay to live whatever standards they want. I want a place.

John Dehlin [05:38:39] I didn't say that, though. I said to be as healthy.

Hayden Paul [05:38:40] As healthy as possible. Okay, well, just to make myself clear, then, I want to. I want to be in a place that is calling me to put off the natural man and to hold to a standard. A standard that isn't to whatever whims I have, but is, but causes me to, to take up my cross and to change.

John Dehlin [05:39:00] Yeah.

Hayden Paul [05:39:00] And to repent.

John Dehlin [05:39:01] Do you know that I'm constantly trying to change and be a better person? Constantly. Like I'm going to a therapist right now and I'm working on mistakes that I make or ways that I could be a little bit more emotionally healthier in touch and more supportive of my wife and kids. Do you know I'm very strongly committed to self improvement?

Jackson Paul [05:39:19] Yeah, I know now.

John Dehlin [05:39:21] And to following the core teachings of Jesus as I understand them, which is love and patience and kindness and forgiveness and charity and service, honesty. Like, I'm no different than you guys in that way. Like, I don't, I make use different words, but I don't think we're that different.

Hayden Paul [05:39:44] But obviously when he says, like, I'm the bread of life and that no man can get to the Father except through me and stuff like that, then that's the stuff that you have an issue with.

John Dehlin [05:39:53] I think that's, I think Jesus would say the most important thing is love and kindness and forgiveness and charity. I think he said that. So those are the things that I take most seriously.

Hayden Paul [05:40:07] Okay, well, I, that is a conceptualization of Jesus that is very prominent in Protestantism, American Protestantism and everything like that. And you can, you can conceptualize them that way. But you have to forget about the, the verses where Jesus says, if any man chooses mother or father, sister, brother over me, he's not worthy of me. Or when Christ says, many of you said, lord, Lord, have we not performed miracles in thy name? Have we not done this in Thy name? And I say, I never knew you. You have to, you have to do the pick and choose, just like you

John Dehlin [05:40:40] guys do with Mormon prophets.

Hayden Paul [05:40:41] When it comes, when it, when it comes to the historical, the non salvific things is what I would say.

John Dehlin [05:40:49] But yeah, non salvific for you is just what you think is important, not important. And salvific is just the stuff you think is important. You know what I mean? Does it make you guys feel sad to see the church kind of in decline? And how do you make sense of that?

Jackson Paul [05:41:06] What do you mean in decline?

John Dehlin [05:41:08] It's, it's growth is slowing and it's projected to become a shrinking church, at least in, in the United States within at least a few decades. Like a shrinking church. I mean, yeah, if you don't count Africa, it's a shrinking church. Yeah, pretty much.

Hayden Paul [05:41:27] I'd have, for sure. I'd have to see like this stats and all that. I haven't, I haven't looked at the stats of that. What I will say is that I do. I do find it sad to see the scourge of what I believe just secularism, which I don't think is a, A net positive for the world. And I think the church obviously feels that, but I think the whole Christian world, the whole religious landscape is filling, you know, the scourge of, of secularism, as I see it. So that makes me sad because I do believe that faith in God, faith in a higher power is conducive to healthy and happy societies, good families and, and, and good morals. I, I am very dubious of the idea that you can have a good morals and a good society without some sort of religious or substructure that accounts for a higher being, mostly because all of the societies in the 20th century that overtly tried to remove religion ended in, you know, genocide of over 100 million people.

John Dehlin [05:42:33] And religious societies have committed genocide. Germany was very religious, you know. Yeah, they were.

Hayden Paul [05:42:43] I, I'm not familiar with it.

John Dehlin [05:42:45] American colonists were religious and they committed genocide on the, The Native Americans.

Hayden Paul [05:42:51] They fought many wars with the Native Americans.

John Dehlin [05:42:54] Yes, they killed thousands and thousands of Native Americans to displace them from their lands. They're Christian, so I mean, secular Christian humans go to war and kill each other and do bad things, I think.

Hayden Paul [05:43:10] Yeah, humans do bad things, for sure.

John Dehlin [05:43:13] Believers do bad, bad things.

Hayden Paul [05:43:15] They do, yeah. But I think that is at the behest of their moral values instead of. Because of their moral values. I think it's, it's the, it's the, the not living the moral values.

John Dehlin [05:43:26] Sometimes religious convictions motivate people to kill. Like Islam, you know, some, some forms of Islam where people kill because. Or in the Old Testament, the Israelites are killing whoever because they're a different tribe.

Hayden Paul [05:43:40] Right.

John Dehlin [05:43:41] Sometimes you kill because of your religious differences. Not.

Hayden Paul [05:43:44] Yeah, I think, I think people can use whatever they want to justify their actions for sure.

John Dehlin [05:43:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're sad about the, the rise of secularism? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you sad about the rise of Christian nationalism?

Jackson Paul [05:44:04] What. What is.

Hayden Paul [05:44:05] Define that. What do you mean?

John Dehlin [05:44:09] Just like, So, like, I don't know. That's probably a different podcast.

Jackson Paul [05:44:20] Maybe we'll probably different podcast.

John Dehlin [05:44:23] Yeah, Well, I try to communicate how much I respect you guys and, and how much I appreciate you coming on. I hope you guys feel good about the way we responded. I wasn't gonna get into kind of the back and forth. That's kind of more what you wanted. I just want to make sure that's clear.

Hayden Paul [05:44:45] No, I'm glad it was. Yeah, obviously, yeah, it did get a little chaotic, but we do. What I will say I appreciate the. The opportunity to come and talk to you and.

John Dehlin [05:44:57] Yeah, well, I appreciate wanting to come. Do you all want to have me on your podcast?

Hayden Paul [05:45:02] We'll talk about it.

John Dehlin [05:45:06] Do you have concerns about that?

Jackson Paul [05:45:08] Let's just read the Book of Mormon together, bro.

Hayden Paul [05:45:11] Yeah. Follow me.

John Dehlin [05:45:12] Dude, that's good. Joseph reads the Book of Mormon with John Balloon.

Jackson Paul [05:45:16] That's gonna be awesome, bro. I'm excited for it.

Farewell and Where to Find the Stick of Joseph

John Dehlin [05:45:20] All right, well, thanks for coming on Mormon Stories. I really wish you guys well, and I hope this isn't the last time we talk.

Hayden Paul [05:45:26] Yep. All right. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [05:45:28] And I hope you guys stay safe. If you're. If and when you're deployed, I wish you healthy returns.

Hayden Paul [05:45:36] Thank you. Appreciate it.

John Dehlin [05:45:37] Yeah, yeah. Stay in touch.

Hayden Paul [05:45:40] Will do.

John Dehlin [05:45:41] All right. All right, everyone, that's Hayden and Jackson Paul from the Stick of Joseph. Check out their YouTube channel. Is there a way that they can support you guys financially or whatever?

Hayden Paul [05:45:53] We have Patreon. They can check it out.

Gerardo Sumano [05:45:56] The channel.

John Dehlin [05:45:57] Is it the Stick of Joseph? Okay. All right. That's the way people can support you.

Hayden Paul [05:46:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:46:02] All right. Okay. Check out their show. Thanks to Julia and Maven and Gerardo. We're like five hours and 45 minutes in, so thanks, really. Thanks to our audience for all you shared. Thanks for all the comments. We had a continuous stream over a thousand people by the end, so it was. Had a great audience. Thanks to everyone who makes this possible. Thanks to our donors. We couldn't do this without you. Thanks to all the super chats that I wasn't able to acknowledge because I was so intense in this conversation. And mostly thanks to all our donors that make Mormon Stories in the Open Stories foundation possible. If you donate, thank you. If you don't and you want to see content like this continue, please support us. And we'll continue to have believers and faithful Mormons on, because that's part of our mission. So hope you guys valued this. And most importantly, as I always like to say, be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.