John Dehlin

Introduction and Overview of the New Handbook

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[00:00:39] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It is February 20, 2020 and I'm very delighted to begin what I think is a pretty important, you know, few episode series on Mormon Stories podcast.

[00:01:00] For those of you who don't know who have been under a rock or who don't have Internet access, it's February 20, 2020. But yesterday, February 19, 2020, the Mormon Church, the LDS Church, released a new online version of their Church General Handbook of Instructions.

[00:01:24] So basically in the past, the church, you know, in the long past, the church had this secret handbook that it used for its priesthood leaders to kind of govern the church and how it works and all its policies. And it was printed out and updated regularly and wards and stakes had copies.

[00:01:45] If you've been following the Mormon Internet for the past 10 or 15 years, it started to become common for excerpts of the handbook to be, you know, leaked and shared on the Internet in ways that became embarrassing to the church. So several years back, the Church released part of the Handbook of Instructions on the Internet, but then kept another part secret for leaders. And yesterday represented, at least to begin with in today's episode kind of emerging where decided to share most, to kind of merge the handbooks and share much of it on the Internet. I'm pretty sure there's still some parts, you know, guidelines, rules, policies, procedures that are not being shared.

[00:02:39] But most of now, both the handbooks have been consolidated and are now being shared on the Internet. And it's kind of a big deal. But in addition, what we saw yesterday, February 19, 2020, is a whole lot of new changes to the Handbook of Instructions.

[00:03:04] And some of the high level areas where we saw major changes are around the church disciplinary council process, apostasy, excommunications, et cetera, a lot of change regarding LGBTQ policies in the Church, some very significant announcements regarding transgender issues in the church, several super minor changes regarding women in patriarchy, and a few other kind of general policy changes.

[00:03:37] And so what I want to do, the way that this series is going to work. I'm going to just do the first hour or so of this interview solo. And what I'm going to do is just kind of lay out the changes that have been made in sort of summary form. So for those who just want to hear the summary, who don't have time to read through the manual, but who want kind of a comprehensive understanding of the changes that have been made, I'll provide that overview. I'm not going to provide a ton. I'll provide some personal commentary, but I'm not going to go into depth on commentary.

[00:04:13] What I'm going to do is later today I'm going to actually invite a panel, an all star panel. Natasha Alpha Parker, marriage therapist, sex therapist. Gina Colvin, an amazing writer and activist from New Zealand. I'm going to have Anthony Miller, a super thoughtful, you know, Mormon that follows what we're doing. And it's a friend, he's a friend of the podcast. Kyle Ashworth, a gay Mormon who has come on Mormon Stories in the past and he runs an amazing podcast called Latter Gay Stories. Kyle's great. We're having him back. We're having Janet Johnson Spengler, who represents kind of progressive Mormonism, liberal Mormonism, active Mormonism. And then we're having Samantha Taylor join us for the first time.

[00:05:03] And Samantha is a identifies as a transgender woman and she will kind of join us and also represent and share her feelings and perspectives on the changes regarding transgender Mormons. So that also I'm also very delighted to have a bunch of people joining us live on Facebook right now. And as I'm reading through these general changes to the handbook, I would be thrilled to have those listening live share any comments or perspectives they have. And if anybody is really interested in joining us today, I'm happy to incorporate some of our live listeners into this conversation if they're interested. So just let me know if you are.

[00:06:01] So Jolene just asked if we're having someone who's transgender on the panel and the answer is yes, Jolene, we are. Okay, so let's start reviewing the changes so this general handbook of instructions can be found on the Internet.

Where to Find the Handbook and Key Changes

[00:06:23] I want to include a link so that people know where. If you go to churchofjesuschrist.org study manual, generalhandbook, general handbook. That's where you're able to find the handbook of instructions there. And let's go ahead and dig in and just talk about some of the changes.

[00:06:48] So I think the biggest changes that some of the biggest changes that were made to the handbook of instructions had to do with the church's guidelines, new guidelines around the disciplinary council process and apostasy. This is something that's obviously near and dear to my heart because I went through church discipline and I also was charged with apostasy, and I was excommunicated. So I've been through that process. I know what it's like. And I think more importantly, it's been a personal. You know, this is something personal to me because, you know, my dad experienced disciplinary council when I was young.

[00:07:37] He's still an active believing member. But also when I was at BYU in the early 90s was the time where the September 6th were all excommunicated. And then of course, in addition to my. And I should just say that experience was impactful to me. I was still an active believing member at the time, but it always stuck with me as kind of a really serious and kind of intense thing that later I decided was a real horrible thing.

[00:08:10] And I've interviewed many of the September six, or at least a few of the September six on Mormon Stories podcast. Paul Toscano, Margaret Toscano, who wasn't officially a member of the September 6th, but for all intents and purposes was.

[00:08:23] And I'm friends with Maxine Hanks, and I've interviewed Brett Metcalf, who was not September 6th, but came right after it. And, you know, I'm friends with others as well. So church discipline is near and dear to my heart. I think it's abominable. We've been calling it barbaric and medieval for years. And then, of course, in 2000, 2014, Kate Kelly and I were summoned to disciplinary council. Denver Snuffer was excommunicated in 2013, I believe. And then since then, so many near and dear friends, Jeremy Runnels, Lee and Cody Young, Bill Real and several others have been either excommunicated or some of the disciplinary councils. And so what's been really important to me is to try and change these policies.

[00:09:19] So something that I started years ago, that started with Kate Kelly and with my disciplinary council and really started with September 6th, is we started holding these vigils where I would fly out to wherever there was a disciplinary council, and we would fill the parking lot with protesters, we would live stream the disciplinary councils, and we would make them a matter of kind of news stories. And we kind of, I think we turned church disciplinary councils from something shameful for something hidden, from something dark and secret to something that was almost a badge of honor. And let's just say a Badge of shame for the Church.

[00:10:01] And so I can just say very explicitly that I. And we had a very. A very meaningful, concrete goal to eliminate excommunication and just disciplinary councils. Now, I can't say that, number one, these policies went that far, because disciplinary councils are not eliminated, but the words. One of the main changes to the disciplinary council process is, number one, the Church has now renamed the disciplinary council process to membership council. So it's gone from disciplinary councils to membership councils. And the Church has eliminated the terms excommunication and disfellowship or disfellowshipped from its lexicon.

[00:10:54] So literally, for 150 plus years, the church has been excommunicating people, disfellowshipping people. Magically. In 2020, those terms are now being expunged from the Handbook of Instructions and from the Church's official vocabulary. And I'm proud of that and I'm happy for it now.

[00:11:13] It's not like everything's better. Basically, as I said, disciplinary councils will remain. And the Church has just changed the verbiage. So now, instead of using the term excommunication, the Church is using the term withdrawal of church membership. And instead of using the term disfellowshipped, the Church is now using the term formal membership restrictions.

[00:11:43] But still. And so many are kind of sarcastic or critical of these changes as being just window dressing or sort of Orwellian, changing a verbiage when no real substantive changes have happened. I think there's something to that. But I'm just going to say, as someone who's been excommunicated, as someone who's been through a disciplinary process, it is different.

[00:12:08] The term excommunication is so medieval, it's so shaming, it's so toxic that I would say for the average person, I think it'd be much better for them to have it been said that. That their church membership has been withdrawed than to say they've been excommunicated. Because excommunication is such a dark and medieval and toxic term. It makes someone seem scary and dangerous. Now, you know, many of us who have been excommunicated in the past five years are proud of the label because it sort of represents this moment. It's kind of a badge of courage. It's a badge of honor. It basically, anyone who's been excommunicated the past five years generally stood for something important.

[00:12:55] They stood for LGBTQ rights, they stood for women and feminism. They stood for honesty and openness and transparency in the Church. So People like Jeremy Runnels and Bill Riehl and I, you know, I would say Lori Lee hall, who stood for transgender rights, many other people that I can't even mention, who stood for LGBT rights, and of course, Kate Kelly and others who stood for feminism. I think we're all proud to have been excommunicated. And again, I think it's kind of a badge of honor. But having said that, generally the term is very shaming, very dark, very toxic and harmful. And so I think it's a positive thing that the church removed it.

[00:13:36] Oh, yes. And our listener Carly reminds us we can't forget Dusty B. And his wonderful partner who were excommunicated simply for being in a same sex marriage and attending church. They're a really important example of sort of heroes of the past five years. Thanks, Carly, for reminding us.

[00:13:57] Isabel, our listener shares that. She understands what I'm saying. But the stigma is still going to be there. That's true. There is still going to be a stigma to having your church membership withdrawn. And I'm just going to argue it's less of a stigma. And I think overall that might be positive for some people.

[00:14:15] So anyway, that's a major change. Another major change with disciplinary councils is that they're being transferred. So historically, when women were experiencing church discipline or when an endowed member was being church disciplined, it would traditionally always be something that the stake president, the stake presidency and the entire 12 member stake high Council would be a part, part of.

Disciplinary Councils and Apostasy Policies

[00:14:48] And, you know, that's a very. My wife Margi will tell you that's a very dark process to, you know, let's just say you're a woman who's an endowed Mormon woman who's been accused of adultery. You would have to stand in front of 15 men, this intimidating, you know, long, huge panel and they'll be asking you and grilling you about your sexual behaviors. And it's really humiliating. And, you know, even if you're a man, a priesthood holder like me, you know, sitting in a room with 15 men was extremely intimidating and unpleasant.

[00:15:30] So one of the big changes that's happening is now, number one, the entire Stake High Council have been removed from this disciplinary council process. In other words, according to the new policy, Stake presidents are Stake presidencies are going to be officiating over stake level disciplinary councils. And the Stake High Councils will just be optional. They'll be brought in if needed.

[00:15:59] So I'd say that's a positive change. But even more significant is now bishops have the option of presiding over disciplinary Councils of endowed men. And so bishops will be handling more disciplinary councils in the future, which is interesting. It's probably good and bad. It's probably going to take the burden off of stake presidents.

[00:16:24] It's going to add a burden to bishops. And one of the problems with that, of course, is that it possibly leaves members open to kind of this leadership roulette where, you know, there's more variation in terms of what results are probably going to be handed down.

[00:16:43] But two other things that I think are significant, it's still the new Handbook of Instruction says that if the bishop believes that the equivalent of excommunication is likely to be the outcome, this withdrawal of membership thing, that it will be the stake president that officiates, and bishops have to get stake president approval to do any membership council or disciplinary council. So the other thing that just is interesting to me is I always thought, if you think about Leah and Cody Young and Brinley Young or Sam Young or Bill Real or me, these disciplinary councils with the stake presidencies involved were always this opportunity for those of us to enlighten and educate all the priesthood leadership in a stake about the problems with the Church.

[00:17:40] So it'd be common for those of us who are excommunicated for apostasy to read and share all the reasons that we stopped believing in the church or had problems with the church. And I always thought, man, this is exposing all the top levels of Mormon Church leadership to all sorts of problems that I imagine the Church doesn't want spread around and brought awareness of. And so it makes perfect sense to me that the Church would cut out state high councilmen from these terrible proceedings. I can also imagine that it was just a really laborious, tedious thing to schedule 15 men to be at a meeting.

[00:18:16] I'm sure that was a headache for bishops. And I should also add that, you know, according to the Doctrine and Covenants, the Stake High Council was supposed to be involved where six represented, you know, took the position of being for the accused, and six were represented as being, you know, against the accused. But in effect, it was always the stake president who decided. And that was just kind of window dressing. So it kind of eliminates a lot of overhead, unneedious, you know, exposure, and in some ways simplifies the process. But again, in some ways it complicates it because again, members will now be subject to bishop roulette, which is always a problem.

[00:19:01] Depending on who your bishop is, you'll get so many different options, but it's major changes nonetheless. So that's something significant. Other things that are significant in terms of church discipline and apostasy, I think this is significant. The church traditionally has had this list of, this list of behaviors that required where apostasy. No, I'm sorry. Behaviors that required a disciplinary council versus, you know, other sorts of behaviors that were optional. And this is something I was really critical of the church about. And I know that we embarrassed the church about this.

[00:19:45] You know, historically, if you look at the old disciplinary council manual, it said a disciplinary council was manual. What was mandatory when there's apostasy. And then apostasy was defined as speaking in open opposition of the church, you know, teaching doctrine that isn't church doctrine following teachings of apostate sex. And then the church added in the November 2015 policy, if you're in a same gender marriage, a disciplinary council was mandatory.

[00:20:18] And then formally joining another church and advocating his teachings. And what was really disturbing is that other things like attempted murder, forcible rape, sexual abuse, spouse abuse, intentional serious physical injury of others, adultery, fornication and abandonment of family responsibilities were all listed as optional triggers for disciplinary council. And so I kind of did my best to kind of expose this and highlight to the news media and everyone who's willing to listen that that sort of put having doubts and questions about the church no longer believing in the church and being in a same sex marriage as worse in the church's eyes than murder and rape and sexual abuse and pedophilia and spousal abuse.

[00:21:13] And I think the church probably heard this loud and clear. And so what the Church has done is it has totally changed its criteria for apostasy and it has changed its list. It's altered and augmented and extended its list of what behaviors require disciplinary counsel or membership council versus behaviors where a disciplinary or membership council are optional.

[00:21:43] So now there's a new criteria of apostasy and same sex marriage has been dropped from it. So no longer is same sex marriage listed as something that immediately triggers apostasy. And that's a really significant thing. And then also it's significant that apostasy is dropped from the list. So no longer is apostasy anywhere on the list of something that mandatorily triggers a disciplinary council. So in some ways apostasy has been downgraded as not as bad as other things. And I think that's a victory. I think that's interesting.

[00:22:22] And then also just as a side note, they added a few new additions to the criteria for apostasy. One of the criteria was showing a Pattern of intentionally working to weaken the faith activity of church members. So that's new. So if you're going out on Facebook and you're, you know, posting criticisms of the church or you're, you know, exposing doubt or going to ward members or stake members and sharing the CES letter or sharing, you know, things the church views as threatening, now there's an extra criteria to make sure that you, you are guilty. Because honestly, people like Sam Young weren't meeting any of the criteria.

[00:23:05] Neither were the Youngs, you know, Lee and Cody Young and others. They literally didn't meet the criteria that the church had for apostasy. So the church, and we embarrassed the church about that and noted that. So the church had to change its criteria of apostasy to include things that then now will cover people like Bill Real or Leah and Cody Young and others if the church chooses to go after them.

[00:23:28] And then of course, you know, in the situation of people like Gina Colvin, Gina formally joined Community of Christ, was advocating his teachings, you know, the Episcopalian church, whatever. The church extended or enhanced its criteria for apostasy to include formally joining another church and promoting its teachings. And then it made a disclaimer. Total inactivity in the church or attending another church does not by itself constitute apostasy. However, if you formally join another church and advocate its teachings, then withdraw your membership may be necessary. So again, that's now optional where before joining another church and advocating its teachings were required for apostasy. So it's just so fun for me personally, I just have to say, to see the church changing on things we explicitly called the church into account for.

[00:24:23] It just shows how much the church is sensitive to criticism, is sensitive to critics, and is willing to change in the modern Internet era when it's called to account. And this is a point I've been making for some time now. It's as if Internet critics and liberal progressive Mormons and activist Mormons are becoming the prophets of the church because we are literally now changing and amending and creating policy for the church. I'm also just going to say, obviously everyone who objected to the November 2015 policy and expressed concerns about that and expressed outrage about that, you know, that's obviously reflected now in these changes to disciplinary councils and specifically to same sex couples now no longer having to be mandatory, that they be excommunicated, which is a really big deal.

Behaviors Requiring or Triggering Disciplinary Action

[00:25:24] Now here is the list of behaviors that require a disciplinary council. And I'm actually really happy about things that are now included on this list that were not included previously. So we have an upgrade of several things. So these are the behaviors requiring a disciplinary council or a membership council. Murder, rape, sexual assault conviction, child or youth abuse, violent predatory behavior, incest, child pornography, plural marriage, sexual predatory behavior, financial predatory behavior, such as fraud and similar activities, and then serious sin while holding a prominent church position and then any felony conviction.

[00:26:12] So, you know, obviously we're super thrilled that the church has finally decided that rapists, pedophiles, child abusers, people who commit financial fraud, people involved in child pornography, violent abusers, these people are now all required to have a disciplinary or membership council. This is huge. And it's egregious that these things have not mandatorily triggered a disciplinary council in the past. But we're grateful that the Church has listened to our concerns and complaints and they've made those changes. So I'm super happy about that.

[00:26:54] Now here's an interesting thing. And by the way, people have noted that what's interesting about that big long list is that they're all things that pretty much are illegal. So basically the church is saying if you do anything illegal, you have a mandatory disciplinary council. In some ways that's brave, in some ways that's not, but it's certainly an improvement.

[00:27:19] And then now here are the things which, wherein disciplinary or membership councils are optional or may be necessary. And this is a bit of a problematic list because you tell me whether you think any of these items should trigger a mandatory disciplinary council. So here we go. Attempted murder is still optional. Sexual abuse is still optional. So the difference there is if you're, if you're convicted in a court of law of sexual abuse, then it's mandatory.

[00:27:51] But if it's sexual abuse among adults and you're not convicted in a court, then I guess it's mandatory. Assault and harassment. Again, sexual assault and harassment are, are optional. Abuse of another spouse, abuse of a spouse or another adult is optional. I don't get that. Why is spousal abuse or abuse of another adult optional? Adultery is optional. I'm okay with that. I'd be fine with that being done away with altogether. Fornication is optional.

[00:28:24] I'd be okay with that being done away with. Same sex relations are now optional. And that's significant because it's an improvement over mandatory. Same sex marriage, Cohabitation and civil unions and partnerships are now optional. So this is interesting because it's now putting basically homosexual behavior or homosexual sexual activity on the same par as heterosexual unmarried sexual activity, cohabitation, civil unions, etc. So in some ways that's good, in some ways that bad. You know, the biggest problem there is the whole ecclesiastical leader roulette. It's going to just depend on who your leader is as to whether or not you get punished for cohabitating, for having sex outside marriage, for just being a single person who's sexually active, or for being same sex married.

[00:29:13] But at least it's kind of a level playing field. And one of the ways the church is going to be vulnerable is as in the future we expose the variability of who gets busted and who doesn't. But we'll cover that in the months and years ahead and we'll see more changes as a result.

[00:29:30] Other things that are optional for disciplinary councils include, let's see, intensive or compulsive use of pornography that has caused significant harm to a member's marriage or family. So now all of a sudden pornography use becomes a. A matter that makes disciplinary council possible. In the past, I don't know how much disciplinary councils have actually been triggered by the use of pornography, but now pornography, if it's significantly harmed the marriage of the family, becomes a candidate for a disciplinary council. I'm guessing it's just going to be membership councils where your full membership is somewhat in question, where you can't have a calling or you can't have a temple recommend or you know, that sort of thing.

[00:30:22] The sort of equivalent of disfellowshipment in the past. Now I think pornography rises to the level of officially being a candidate for disfellowshipment. So that's interesting. And then of course, other things that are optional or non mandatory for disciplinary councils include robbery, burglary, theft or embezzlement, perjury, serious sin while holding a position of authority or trust in church or the community.

[00:30:51] Any instance where a serious sin is widely known, which is weird. Why does the visibility of someone's sin affect whether it's a mandatory or a non mandatory disciplinary council? That's weird. And then it still has abortion patterns of serious sin, deliberate abandonment of family responsibilities, including non payment of child supported alimony. That's good. We're happy that disciplinary church discipline is included for that. Then sale of illegal drugs and then other serious criminal acts.

[00:31:24] So those are all things that are optional. I think you'd agree with me that it's kind of weird that there are a lot of those things are optional. Some of those things shouldn't have disciplinary councils at all. They're just sort of sins like other people's sins. Others should absolutely require a disciplinary Council, like sexual abuse. What the heck, you know, attempted murder, spousal assault and abuse, robbery, burglary. Like, why is that not disciplinary counsel worthy, you know, mandatorily, and someone who's a deadbeat dad or mom and not paying their child support or other criminal acts. So anyway, and then I should just say it's happy.

[00:32:08] I'm very happy to see the church elevating financial fraud as a problem, you know, because obviously the church is rife with financial fraud and it's been a problem for many, many years, and it's nice to see the church kind of elevating that. So that's my review of apostasy and disciplinary council issues changes. We'll have a panel on later today tonight to discuss more of those things. So stay tuned. We'll have Natasha Over Parker, Gina Colvin and others. That'll be good. Now let me move on to changes regarding LGBTQ members.

LGBTQ Members, Transgender, and Intersex Policies

[00:32:46] So first and foremost, it's interesting that in the new General handbook of instructions, the church is walking, is sort of moving away from the label same gender attraction, which was always confusing. Nobody even knows what that means. And it's more comfortable using same sex attraction instead of same gender attraction. Now, same sexual attraction is still problematic for members of the LGBTQ community, primarily because it sort of. It almost is like using the term like it's a sickness or an illness, like, oh, he has. He has lupus. Oh, he has same sex attraction. And that's deeply problematic. But also, the LGBT community would probably argue that having a gay or lesbian or bisexual identity is important.

[00:33:30] It's claiming an identity in a positive way versus in a sort of pathological way. And we'll have Kyle and others on this afternoon, this evening to talk more about that. But, you know, in some ways that's a step forward. In some ways that's a step back.

[00:33:47] Same sex sexual activity, as we mentioned previously, is now kind of placed on the same level as extramarital homosexual, heterosexual sexual activity. Both are frowned upon now. Both are options for disciplinary council or membership councils. But no longer is, you know, homosexual or same sex or LGBTQ sexual behavior sort of demonized as pathological or dirted or dirty or perverted. And, you know, starting with Spencer B. Kimball and the miracle forgiveness, and for so, so many years in the church hammock of instructions, LGBTQ sexual behavior was sort of demeaned and viewed as perverted and bad and unnatural. And it seems like all that language has been stripped out, which I think is overall positive.

[00:34:37] So that's good. I think I still don't think sexual behavior should be grounds for church discipline, at least if it's between consenting adults and it's responsible and healthy. But the church will make changes in the future like they have for so long.

[00:34:54] Again, same sex marriage is no longer listed as an act of apostasy, nor anything that requires a disciplinary council. Thank you, church for listening to us. We appreciate that. Still, same sex marriage is not approved of. So it does explicitly still denounce same sex marriage is not a good thing. Something that goes against the proclamation on the family.

[00:35:20] No longer does the church prevent children of same sex married couples from getting baptized or participating in the offices of the priesthood or in callings. So that's a wonderful removal. That's obviously in direct response to all the outrage and the backlash in response to the November 2015 policy that caused so many people to leave and, and get frustrated with the church. Also, the children of LGBT same sex married couples are no longer required to denounce their parents marriage once they turned 18 and were able to get baptized. And again, thank you church for listening to our complaints about that. We appreciate it.

[00:36:04] Call this grassroots or bottom up revelation. And in some ways, the critics and the activists are running the church. And that's great, honestly. Kudos to the church leaders for listening to its members and responding accordingly. Something that's interesting is the church basically says that as long as an LGBTQ member is striving to live the law of chastity, you know, they are allowed to hold callings and participate in the church.

[00:36:38] And as long as they can say that they feel like they're worthy to do so, and that's positive. Now there's still, you know, we're going to talk about this this evening. What this is starting to introduce is a pathway for LGBTQ couples to participate in the church in some meaningful way. They're welcome to attend. Now, they won't necessarily be excommunicated.

[00:37:09] You know, shout out to Dusty B. And his partner and, you know, a sad sort of acknowledgment of all the same sex married couples who have been excommunicated. You know, will they be pardoned? Will an apology be offered? You know, we don't exactly know how the church is going to deal with the fact that in the past these couples have been excommunicated. But it seems like, you know, one of the problems has been that same sex couples, same sex married couples in some wards have been allowed to participate and even have callings. And then, in other words, they've been Excommunicated, and that's not consistent. So this seems like a pathway now for same sex unions or same sex married couples to be welcome in the Mormon Church and to participate, and for LGBTQ gay members to participate in some ways.

[00:37:55] Who knows what striving to live the law of chastity means? Who knows how much Bishop roulette will allow variability there? Maybe there'll be LGBTQ members who date and even engage in some sort of sexual behavior, but as long as they ride that line and they define sex in certain ways, they'll be able to be worthy and hold a calling and go to the temple. You know, that's clearly how it's been working and will continue working going forward, even at a greater accelerated pace.

[00:38:23] But this seems to be the church opening up a pathway for gay, lesbian, bisexual members to participate in meaningfully in the church, which is a positive thing. It does introduce a notion of a caste system, which basically, now that the church is sort of starting to have this status of sort of membership restrictions, formal membership restrictions, it basically now is going to be setting up the system where you're still welcome at church, but you're in this category now of, you know, can't have a temple recommend, can't, you know, hold certain callings or maybe can't exercise the priesthood. And that's going to be this sort of middle ground that LGBTQ members and possibly non believers and others live in.

[00:39:17] And we're going to talk more about that with Anthony Miller and others this evening. So stay tuned. But it's overall positive, I think. One final thing I'm going to note, and Jonathan Hunter has asked me to talk about this.

[00:39:32] On the same day that the church released its general Handbook of Instructions, it changed its policy for BYU students in the honor code. So basically, in the past, recently, the BYU honor code had explicit verbiage around homosexual behavior and how it's prohibited for BYU students and display of homosexual behavior are prohibited for BYU students.

[00:40:02] Now, any language about homosexual behavior has been removed from the BYU Honor Code. And it just talks about living the law of chastity, et cetera. So, you know, LGBTQ BYU students are celebrating this as a victory, basically, where the they're feeling like possibly they'll be allowed to date as long as they sort of ride that same line that heterosexual dating couples at BYU ride, which is obviously very fraught because there are all sorts of behavior, sexual behaviors, we know, that happen at BYU, that really count as sexual behaviors, but because it maybe doesn't officially count as intercourse or intercourse In a certain way, you know, then BYU students are able to sort of say they're living the honor code and remain students at byu.

[00:40:52] We all know that game that's been played for a long time. And if you don't understand what I'm talking about, just Google the word docking and BYU and sex or sexuality, and you'll learn some very interesting things about ways that BYU students kind of work around the honor code in the law of chastity. Now, it looks like LGBTQ students at BYU will be able to engage in that same type of behavior, but also maybe they'll be able to hold hands on BYU campus, just like straight couples do on BYU campus.

[00:41:28] Now, I will say that the honor code office, according to Twitter and Instagram, the honor code office at BYU is basically kind of a little bit backtracking or expressing some ambivalence. They're basically, they came out with a statement or two that's basically said, yes, we've changed the honor code, but there's been no changes in terms of what's expected. It's leaving things a little bit ambiguous or questionable regarding LGBTQ students.

[00:41:58] So we don't know exactly whether there's going to be some steps back after this step forward, but it seems like a positive step for LGBTQ students at byu, and it's definitely being heralded as a positive step, so that's good.

[00:42:15] Zeath. One of our listeners writes, the loopholes are gross. No pun intended. Again, if you want to Google something fun or disgusting or troubling, look up poop hole, loophole and BYU or Christian's. It's basically a name euphemism for engaging in Christians or Mormons engaging in anal sex so that they can say that they're living the law of chastity or living chaste lives because it's not penile vaginal penetration.

[00:42:48] I don't mean to be so explicit, but this is a real thing. It affects BYU students, and so we're talking about it. Lila Tuller just joined us. An amazing interview I did recently. Hey, Lila, you're awesome. Thanks for joining us. We love you. Hope you're doing well. Okay, so that kind of summarizes the changes regarding LGB Mormons. I shouldn't have said LGBT Mormons. I should have said LGB Mormons.

[00:43:19] Actually, some of those changes do affect trans members, so I guess it is a totally different, unapplicable. But we need to be always careful lumping in transgender Mormons with or just LGB individuals with transgender Mormons when we don't speak in ways that encompass all of them. So I have to be careful about that. Now it's time to move to a discussion of a major set of changes that were made in the more mature Shinno Handbook of Instructions yesterday regarding transgender Mormons. So the first major significant change is that the word transgender was used for the first time, as I understand it, in the Handbook of Instructions.

[00:44:06] So welcome to the modern era Mormon Church in using LGBTQ language that the LGBTQ community has been using for a long time, slowly, the church is willing to. To adopt that language. So I'm sure that's validating for transgender members to have the church willing to use the actual proper terms and how they identify.

[00:44:33] So what the church clarifies in the Handbook of Instructions is that what's most important to the church is that regarding gender and transgender individuals, that they always remain faithful. This is just my summary. That they always remain faithful to the gender, the biological sex, that their expression of gender corresponds with the biological sex that was identified for them at birth. So if they were born with the penis and were given the gender of male, that they sort of stay consistent with that as much as possible, or if they're born with a, let's just say, XY chromosome male, XX chromosome female, or more specifically, if they have a vagina and not a penis, then that they maintain identifying as a female, or at least expressing themselves as a female, or don't cross certain lines, which we'll talk about in just a second.

[00:45:41] Because actually, another change which makes this a little bit super confusing is that the church now says it's okay with a member identifying as transgender. So you can identify as transgender now and not get in trouble. And transgender individuals can be baptized, can be confirmed, can take the sacrament, and they can even hold callings and attend the temple and exercise priesthood.

[00:46:08] But all of that will be according to the gender that they were assigned based on their biological sex at birth. Now we're taking out intersex individuals for a second. They have their own sort of clarifications in this Handbook of Instructions.

[00:46:26] So let's take that out of the equation for a second. And so what this means is if you. I guess what this means is if you are genetically male, XY chromosome, were born with the penis, you can still.

[00:46:46] But at some point, you identify as transgender or trans female, you can still get the priesthood, you can still receive the priesthood, you can still attend the temple, you can still serve in callings. Unless. And this is where the church starts to enforce laws.

[00:47:07] What the church is basically Discouraging people from doing, transgender individuals from doing are the undergoing any medical or surgical operations. So no surgeries or hormone therapy. And then no social transitions, which is changing your gender identity. So calling yourself female or a woman when you're a genetic male with male anatomy, changing your name to, you know, across genders, changing your pronouns and changing your dress and grooming styles as a part of their transition. If they do, then membership restrictions will be applied for the duration of their transition. Which means that as long as you're undergoing a gender transition from male to female or from female to male, sort of certain things can be suspended.

[00:48:01] Membership restrictions like you won't get colleagues, you can't use the priesthood, you can't go to the temple. What's not clear is once you're done with the transition, whether some of those things can be restored. I'm guessing that some things will be able to be restored, but some things won't. So I'm guessing that a trans male, so someone who was biologically female at birth, who has a vagina but has transitioned to male, I don't think they're going to be able to be eligible for receiving the priesthood once they've transitioned to male. That's my guess. But of course everything's up for grabs in the future. But you know, whether in sort of the Laurie Lee hall case, whether someone who is biologically identified as male at birth is able to transition to female and then afterwards attend Relief Society, I think that will be possible in the future.

[00:48:51] Whereas Lori Lee hall was given grief for doing that. Anyway, these are some of the changes. We're going to talk a lot more about this tonight, but that's sort of. Some of the high level transgender members who have undergone transgender related surgery are forbidden from temple service or the exercising of priesthood. So if you do surgeries in any way, or apparently hormone therapy, no more temple service and no more priesthood for you exercising it. That's a clear line in the sand.

[00:49:23] Membership restrictions for gender transitioning individuals, again, like I said, include receiving or exercising priesthood, receiving, using temple recommend and church callings. So don't socially transition. And that's something that's very interesting. On the one hand, the church is saying that transgender individuals are welcome at church, but you can't socially transition. That means you change your name, change your pronouns, change how you look. What does that mean?

[00:49:51] It's basically stigmatizing being transgender in the church. So they're kind of second class citizens, kind of viewed as bad, kind of viewed as inferior. It's the same Sort of thing for LGB members. It's sort of bad to be gay, it's bad to be lesbian, it's bad to be bisexual. But we'll let you hang around, but you're going to be a second class citizen. Transgender individuals are squarely in that category. They kind of always have been, but now it's even more official. So that's problematic for many.

[00:50:23] So we'll be talking a bit more about that. A couple other policies. Transgender individuals, if they're considering surgery, are not allowed to be baptized. And transgender individuals who have undergone surgery can only be baptized with First Presidency approval. And it will be banned from priesthood participation or temple attendance as members. So this is something that's changed at least a little bit or made official because I'm made aware of at least one trans male who is allowed to be baptized and who's allowed and told they could be temple worthy. So this is the Church kind of undoing what was perceived by some as progress.

[00:51:05] And then regarding intersex individuals or people born with ambiguous genitalia, the Church has now an explicit policy saying for those born with ambiguous genitalia or intersex, parents or others, with the cooperation of medical professionals, will have to determine the child's sex. Questions about membership records, priesthood ordination, and temple ordinances for those members should be directed to the First Presidency. And this is significant because we have people born with chromosomal anomalies. They're not clearly X, Y or xx. They have certain chromological, different chromosomal differences that don't fit into the clear male, female sort of category.

[00:51:53] And we won't go into that. But that's a real thing. Read the book Intersex if you want to, to learn more. You know, it obviously begs the question, if gender is eternal, like the proclamation on the family says, then why is God creating people with ambiguous gender? And then if there's God creating people with ambiguous gender, even biologically, chromosomally, then why isn't there the possibility of ambiguous gender or other variations of gender that aren't binary in the hereafter?

[00:52:25] So this is all stuff we'll talk about tonight. We're going to have a representative of the transgender community join us and they could talk about this. She could talk about this a lot more intelligently than I can. But I'm doing my best here. And I just want to acknowledge my lack of education, lack of expertise in this area. I'm trying to learn. I'm doing the best that I can, but I will keep learning.

[00:52:56] And one thing that's interesting. At the end of the Transgender section, the Church adds note at the end, the church adds quote Some content in this section may undergo further revision. I would say a lot of the content in this section will undergo significant further revision in the future because the Church is always changing. We'll talk about that more tonight.

[00:53:17] I'll just read Lila Tuller's comment. The church is painting themselves into a corner. They need to stop with all the rules, just accept everyone and let people decide who they are. No restrictions. You know, that's, you know that's true. Amy adds. That's exactly what they're doing, stigmatizing. And that's so true.

[00:53:36] And what we just see, the Handbook of Instructions is just one perfect example of the church evolving over time on so many issues. Whether it's birth control or adoption or suicide or a million different things, the Church is just changing. And the manual, the hammock of instructions, just proves that and sort of calls into questions the extent to which God leaves the church and what it means for the Church to have divine authority and prophetic guidance when they're just so behind the times and so wrong on so many issues. We'll be talking about all of that tonight.

[00:54:10] I have not done regarding Sam Young and the Protect LDS Children movement or Protect Every Child movement. I've not done a thorough audit of the Church's changes in regard to interviews. Certainly in recent years, thanks to Sam Young, the Church has allowed parents to be in interviews with minors, whereas in the past that wasn't explicitly noted in the handbook. That was added to the handbook previously. So that's not new. But that continues in the Church Handbook of Instructions.

[00:54:44] And something that's really frustrating for me, which isn't a change, which is a change many of us were calling for, is that the Church still does not require bishops and stake presidents to immediately notify the police or Child and Protective Services when the bishops or stake presidents are notified of sexual abuse of children.

[00:55:04] The Church is still hiding behind these ecclesiastical or clerical exceptions. And instead bishops, as take presidents, are encouraged to call the Curtin McConkey hotline or the Abuse Hotline, where they're counseled to basically protect the Church's legal interests first and foremost. And there's sort of a nod to also providing services for the victims. But we all know in the past that's really just been a hotline to protect the Church's legal rear ends. And we just know so many instances where the Curt, McConkie and church leaders have told members not to go to authorities and in that way have protected abusers, protected abusers at the expense of abuse victims, and prevented and allowed abusers to continue abusing in other situations, much like the Catholic Church did for so long, so deeply problematic that the church is not willing to just do what all healthy and natural people are doing these days, which is call the police, call child protective services.

[00:56:11] Would you know that a child or even a spouse is undergoing sexual abuse? So we're disappointed that the Church hasn't done that. All right. Going to Women and the Patriarchy Basically, there are some super minor changes that affect women in the patriarchy.

Women, Priesthood, and Gender-Related Changes

[00:56:35] One that I thought was interesting is young men. Young Mormon men are encouraged to serve missions explicitly in the handbook Young Mormon Women. It basically has disclaimers for that, saying when they desire, they may be recommended to serve missions. So why the differential verbiage? Why isn't it just all young men and women are encouraged to serve missions? Again, for some reason there's different verbiage for young Mormon women. It's only when they desire and then they may be recommended.

[00:57:04] So that's interesting. I'm sure the feminists will prefer that that be changed over time. I do, and I'm sure others do as well. One thing noted by Jana Reese, which I think is worth noting, is the Church has softened its stance on surrogacy on surrogate births. The Church still discourages surrogate births, but now sealing the surrogate child to parents no longer requires first presidency approval. So in the past, if you had a child through surrogacy and you wanted that child sealed to you, you had to get first presidency approval. That's been removed.

[00:57:41] And the sternly worded prohibition of Church of Surrogacy has been moderated over time and will likely continue being moderated over time, like contraception and suicide and other sorts of things. So that's an interesting thing that affects women reproductive situations and rights.

[00:58:04] The Mormon Church still totally and officially believes in eternal polygamy. You know, this was troublesome, the language where a man can be sealed to multiple women if his first wife if his first wife that he's sealed to either dies or they get divorced, the man can continue being sealed to multiple women even if that cancellation isn't. That sealing isn't canceled, and even if he's already sealed. So a man can continue to be sealed to multiple women, much like Russell M. Nelson, much like Dallin H. Oaks. So in that sense, the church absolutely still believes in polygamy and practices polygamy. And if you don't believe me, just read section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

[00:58:44] But for women, women can only be sealed to a second man if their first sealing is canceled. So women cannot be sealed to multiple men. You know, if a woman is sealed to a husband and the husband dies, and then the woman takes on a new husband, she's not allowed to be sealed to the new husband. Just like, you know, in the same way that men are allowed to be sealed to new wives. And if a woman gets married to a second husband and wants to be sealed to that second husband, the first marriage must be canceled before the woman can be sealed to the new husband.

[00:59:24] So total polygamy. Polygamy still endures in Mormonism. We're still a polygamist church. Anyone who denies it is lying. And of course, that's weird because the church opposes polygamy and its practice today, but still practices it. So super weird they don't renounce D and C. 132. That's a problem.

[00:59:43] All right. One other change is that the church is trying to make a nod to feminists by making assertions about priesthood power and participation in priesthood power and authority. Even when people don't. Women don't specifically hold the priesthood. So I'll read the actual quote. All Latter Day Saints, regardless of gender or church assignment, exercise delegated priesthood authority when they are given formal service opportunities in their congregations.

[01:00:16] All church members who keep their covenants, women, men and children, are blessed with God's priesthood power in their homes to strengthen themselves and their families. And of course, only men and male youths, however, can be ordained to priesthood offices. So this is sort of a step more towards giving women the priesthood. It's basically saying women, men, women and children all hold some priesthood power, have some priesthood authority, and exercise the priesthood in some way. So it's kind of throwing a bone to women a little bit, saying, hey, you've already got some priesthood. You know, you can't be ordained to priesthood offices right now, but you're, you know, exercise the priesthood in whatever way you want to.

[01:00:57] Personally, you know, I don't know how many Mormon active Mormon feminists feel good about this change, but it's definitely a step forward, throwing a bone to women and feminists. So thank you, ordained women and all the progressive Mormon feminists who helped make this possible.

[01:01:18] And then finally, one change regarding women is the church makes a bold step and openly, explicitly condemns female genital mutilation, a practice not uncommon in certain parts of the world, specifically Africa, where the church operates I'm happy that the church makes this assertion. I don't know if it's going to have political implications for the church in certain African countries, but yay to condemning female genital mutilation. That's awesome.

[01:01:50] I'm reading a comment from a listener. Heidi writes, agree, it took years to get my first ceiling canceled. It's a huge burden. This is just regarding the women in sealing thing. It's a huge burden on women to have to get their ceiling canceled that men don't have to go through.

[01:02:05] And it's awful. And Heidi reflects that. Amy writes, I still can't get mine. So there's women who are being denied a ceiling cancellation, which is a problem. So that's an issue. Brian's asking, why do same sex couples want to be part of such an organization? Brian the answer is there are many LGBTQ Mormons that still believe in the church and want to have a faith home. And there are many people who say, why should someone have to choose between love and their sexuality and their exercise of faith? Just because you are LGBTQ does not mean you've lost your faith in Mormonism. And in fact, some LGBTQ people I know are some of the most devout Mormons I know.

[01:02:50] So that's why I hope that answers your question. Isabelle writes, my husband has sealed the two women. So has Dallin H. Oaks, member of the First Presidency. So is Russell M. Nelson, Mormon Prophet. All right, so that is the changes regarding women. And then there are questions regarding general policies.

Word of Wisdom, Dress Standards, and General Policy Updates

[01:03:12] There are a few more changes to the General Handbook of Instructions that are kind of general policies. And Holly asks, any Word of Wisdom changes? One thing that's interesting is the Word of Wisdom section of the Doctrine of the General Handbook of Instructions says it basically provides a link to D&C89. Basically saying if you want to know what the Word of Wisdom, you know how to follow the Word of Wisdom. Go read D&C89 and interpret it for yourselves. It offers no clarification other than it says that no coffee and tea are allowed and no illegal drugs and no harmful or habit forming substances except under the care of a competent physician.

[01:03:56] So what it doesn't explicitly prevent is beer and wine. Now why do I say that? Why is that interesting? If you read doctrine and covenants 89 and if you understand how active members and even apostles observed the Word of Wisdom for decades, if not over a century, beer was still legal under the Word of Wisdom and wine was still legal under the Word of Wisdom. So you've got apostles and pioneers Drinking beer, drinking wine, well over 100 years and in many cases I've heard of a general authority in the area, authority in the past 10 or 20 years who drank wine because it's allowed in the Word of Wisdom.

[01:04:38] Mild drinks of barley and wine are allowed in the Word of Wisdom. The only thing that's prohibited alcohol wise in the Word of Wisdom are these, you know, strong drinks, which means kind of hard liquor. So, you know, some believe that this clarification, the fact that it doesn't prohibit all alcohol is opening the door to allowing the average Mormon to interpret for themselves what it means to observe the Word of Wisdom. And if they feel like drinking beer and drinking wine is consistent with them with their observance of the Word of Wisdom, then that's okay. And I think that's reasonable. And I know Mormons that live that way.

[01:05:17] I know Mormons, active Mormons, even believing Mormons today that drink wine, that drink beer, and they still attend the temple and they tell their stake presidents and bishops that they consider themselves to be living the Word of Wisdom. So that's the thing. It's also interesting, it says no illegal drugs. So this is what brings in marijuana, recreational marijuana or medical marijuana. This policy is now basically saying, and maybe it's been saying this for a while, as long as the drugs aren't illegal, you can use them if they're not harmful or habit forming. And this is where ecclesiastical roulette and bishop, sort of bishop roulette and discretion is going to come into play because there's going to be some bishops that allow recreational marijuana in states where it's legal.

[01:06:04] And then everywhere medical marijuana is going to be allowed if it's legal. And of course there are going to be plenty of people that have approval to use medical marijuana who are going to use it recreationally. And this is a big huge door now that's been opened for people who use cannabis either medically or recreationally. And more states, including Utah, are going to be coming into this situation in the years ahead.

[01:06:30] And so basically legal, recreational and medical marijuana open season, not open season, like celebration open day. You can use marijuana under those circumstances. Now there may be some bishops that basically say, well, marijuana isn't legal in this state and it's a, you know, harmful or habit forming substance. That's where we're gonna see an interesting crackdown potentially. And of course our Mormon stories, LDS Church be warned, be aware, if anybody receives church discipline or a membership council over their use of marijuana, we're going to be covering it. And you're going to be changing your policies in the future like you have in the past.

[01:07:11] So yeah, that's all kind of interesting. Of course it doesn't say anything about hallucinogenics, you know, you know, psilocybin, lsd, keto, whatever, the depressant, medication. There are all sorts of psychedelics that are now being experimented with by Mormons and post Mormons. And as long as it's under the supervision of a competent physician or it's not harmful or habit forming, it's now fair game.

[01:07:44] So you're going to see the use of psychedelics in the Mormon Church spike unless the church openly condemns them. I think that's a fact. Okay, so yeah, Daniel writes his 93 year old father ordained 70 high priest bishopric in excess of 30 years, has secretly pressed his own wine for years.

[01:08:10] Oh, Matt's saying, is cold tea and coffee allowed? And that's interesting because no coffee and tea are still bad because the church says no coffee or tea in its general policies on the word of wisdom. So no coffee and tea are prohibited here.

[01:08:32] But it's weird because like Diet Coke is habit forming. We know that and it's harmful, but it's okay. So there's still things to be worked out. Samuel asks, what about getting more tobacco on bruised cattles? I think that's okay.

[01:08:48] Let's use tobacco all we can on kettles. Thank you for everyone. And of course hot chocolate is a hot drink, but it's bad. Or hot tea according to this interpretation is bad. And this is where it's again the Wild west and people just end up doing what they want.

[01:09:06] A couple other final, you know, general changes made in the handbook of instructions. Ties in white shirts are no longer mentioned as being recommended for young male deacons or you know, priesthood holders passing the sacrament. And this I think is the church basically trying to say enough with the cultural imperialism. Let's stop enforcing IBM American corporate sort of dress code on the world. Let's just have beautiful cultures allow their youth, their BAAL youth to express their respect for the Sabbath in whatever way is appropriate locally. And they can bless and pass the sacrament accordingly. Colored shirts are now fair game. Why not? Let's not be so rigid and strict.

[01:09:51] This is something I think everybody likes. And it's interesting that now it's codified. It's always been this cultural thing that when you pass the sacrament, you receive the sacrament with your right hand, you take the sacrament with your right hand and you pass it with your right hand. And now the manual actually says that where possible, you're supposed to partake of the bread and water with the right hand.

[01:10:12] So thank you church for that explicit guideline, left handed people or left hand users. Still, you need to know your place and know what's recommended. Okay, a couple other quick things going back to the Samantha issue where that beautiful young girl got up, bore testimony and talked about her sexuality and identified as lesbian over the pulpit and then she was shut down and her mic was turned off and all that.

[01:10:45] The church has now explicitly added to its handbook of instructions that any display of romantic behavior and or discussing one's sexual orientation are discouraged. So don't say you're gay in your testimony, don't say you're lesbian, don't say you're bisexual, don't say you're heterosexual.

[01:11:02] Sunday school, same thing. Just don't talk about your sexual orientation in church. That's the new explicit guideline. And don't show any romantic behavior. So no kissing, I guess, at church. And of course they mean no gay couples kissing, but certainly no. But also no heterosexual couples now can display any romantic behavior.

[01:11:28] So one big question mark about this is will, you know, gay couples be able to put their arms around each other or hold hands in church? Will that be considered romantic behavior or not? And then if so, what's good for the goose? Is it good for the gander? Can stray couples put their arms around each other or hold hands? Or is that also considered romantic behavior? You know, this is going to be another thing that we'll see future changes about. So that'll be interesting.

[01:11:59] Also, the church codified, you know, its recent efforts to reinforce or persuade members and media to not use the term Mormon, to not call it the Mormon Church, and to refer to the church by its full name instead of using shortened terms like LDS or Mormon. So that's all now codified. Obviously they're jettisoning all their investment in the I'm a Mormon campaign when they do that. So many people think this is obnoxious.

[01:12:28] And of course we expect when Russell Nelson dies that potentially this Mormon thing is going to change and we're going to go back to it being okay to use the term Mormon because it's so ridiculous to not be able to say the word Mormon and for people to be able to refer to the church as the Mormon Church and for people to have to use this excruciatingly long name whenever referring to the church. We'll see how long all that Mormon stuff lasts. But now it's been codified in the handbook of instructions.

[01:12:56] And then finally something that's interesting is the church. We all know growing up that the church had its sort of threefold mission, which was proclaim the gospel, redeem the dead, and perfect the saints. That has been changed. And I'm sure this change has been evolving over time. But now it's codified that the church's the four aspects of God's work as it's described now are living the gospel of Jesus Christ. So we're getting Jesus in the mission of the church, caring for those in need.

[01:13:29] So that's caring for the poor. We hope the church will invest its $120 billion now in increased efforts to care for the poor, inviting all to receive the gospel. So they're not calling it missionary work anymore, probably because people hate missionary work generally and get turned off whenever it's described and uniting families for eternity. So it's upgrading or adding in.

[01:13:53] Instead of calling it work for the dead, which is creepy and weird, or genealogy, which people hate, it's now saying united families for eternity. So these are all kind of euphemistic changes that the church is adding. So there's so much more to talk about.

[01:14:12] And most importantly, it's really important to bring LGBTQ members into this discussion. Gay members, trans members, women, people internationally, etc. Feminists. And so this sort of concludes my overview of the changes made. And what I'm just super excited to tell you all is that this is not over.

[01:14:35] We are going to be bringing Samantha Taylor, a woman who identifies as trans Kyle Ashworth, a gay Mormon, Gina Colvin, who's a woman of color and also an international from New Zealand, Natasha Over Parker, licensed sex therapist, family therapist and public feminist. Anthony Miller, one of our most thoughtful post Mormons, Angie Johnson Spengler, an active semi believing progressive Mormon. They're going to be joining us at 7:30 tonight, Utah time where we're going to be talking about more of these changes and getting a variety of perspectives. So I hope you've enjoyed this overview. We've had a really great audience of over 200 people joining us. Sustained.

[01:15:25] We were able to incorporate some of your comments. None of you really express your interest in coming on the video. I hope in the future listeners will be willing to join us in video. But we've enjoyed those who are willing to give comments.

[01:15:40] And we hope you'll join us tonight for more discussion on these changes. But we love you guys. We appreciate your support of Mormon Stories podcast. While you're still on, let me just ask for a final couple things. If you value this program, please share it. Please share it right now on your walls.

Closing Remarks and Listener Support

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[01:16:32] And then finally I just always have to request if you support what we do on Open Stories foundation on Mormon Stories, please consider becoming a monthly donor. We've had our number of donors decrease and our number of donations to Mormon Stories Podcast decrease over the past year.

[01:16:49] And you know we need your donations to keep us Alive. Less than 1% of our listeners donate. So if you value this program, if you want to see it continue, if you want to see us continue to affect positive change in the Church and to support healing and growth for post Mormons and progressive Mormons, we need your continued support. So please go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor and that'll make a huge difference. Also know that we're going to continue doing faith crisis workshops and retreats and events. We're going to continue our partnership with the Thrive organization. We've got a retreat coming to Chicago in April.

[01:17:28] We've got a retreat this weekend in Salt Lake City. We've got a Thrive women's retreat coming in March and we've got our two big Thrive events coming later in the year, late May. There's going to be a huge Thrive event in Salt Lake City and of course Thrive a big Thrive event in November. Plus other workshops and retreats coming in the months and years ahead. Plus Natasha Alpha Parker is doing weekly faith crisis free workshops at our Thrive center in Salt Lake City Holiday on each Wednesday night. And of course you can join a local Thrive join or create a local Thrive community. If you're looking for a support group to to meet with to help you through your faith transition, you can go to thrivebeyondmormonism.com to create or join a Thrive support group to find out about Thrive events and you can go to mormonstories.org events to find out about upcoming events in your area.

[01:18:27] Isabelle asks, can you donate through Smile Amazon, Absolutely. Look for Mormon Stories Podcast or the Open Stories Foundation. All your purchases through Smile Amazon go to the Open Stories foundation or a percentage of them do. So please donate to us through using Smile Amazon. That's a great thing. Sherry's asking what Thrive means. Thrive is an initiative that's not officially affiliated with the Open Stories foundation, but it's separate. But it's an organization dedicated to healing and growth and community for Post Mormons.

[01:19:03] There's no organization that's basically saying, hey, if you leave the church, how do we help you heal and grow and thrive and find friends and find community and get inspired and learn. That's what Thrive is. So if you go to thrivebeyondmormonism.com you can join local support groups to meet with other Post Mormons to make friends. You can attend our annual Thrive groups. We have regional Thrive groups popping up. We had a great Thrive Arizona, there's Thrive Sacramento, that's in the works.

[01:19:31] There are other regions that want Thrive regional activities. A lot of those will be popping up in the future. And we're going to be creating content for Post Mormons basically to help them figure out what comes after Mormonism. How do you become excellent? How do you become happy? How do you have a better marriage, become a better parent, have more healing and growth after Mormonism?

[01:19:52] How do you find beliefs? How do you learn all that stuff? Thrive is a whole initiative to support Post Mormonism, Sherry, so thank you for asking. A couple other comments on Facebook Amy's writing that she's been called in twice to her bishop's office over Facebook posts related to Mormon Stories. We're sorry about that. We hope that doesn't happen a lot.

[01:20:18] And yeah, so that's all for today's episode, this afternoon's episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Please check back in the weeks and months ahead for more episodes. And again, join us tonight, 7:30pm Utah time and online later for a panel discussion of these recent changes to the LDS Church General Handbook of Instructions. Take care, everybody. You're awesome and we hope to see you again very soon on future episodes of Mormon Stories podcast.

[01:20:50] Take care. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.