In this powerful and deeply personal interview, Jared and Camille share their intertwined experiences within the Mormon Church, from their early faith and leadership roles to their eventual departure.
Jared’s story begins with his upbringing in a devoted LDS family, his basketball career, and his mission in Chile under leaders like Jeffrey Holland and Brad Wilcox. He opens up about confronting fraudulent baptisms, an unexpected interview with Apostle Richard G. Scott, and the pressures of meeting high expectations. His service as a Mormon bishop during the COVID-19 pandemic exposed him to the immense demands of church leadership, from counseling struggling couples to handling financial aid with limited resources. The weight of these responsibilities, coupled with mental health struggles, led him to question long-held beliefs.
Camille’s journey unfolds through her struggles with modesty teachings, faith, and mental health. As a teenager, she was shamed for her clothing choices and internalized the message that her role was to make others comfortable. She later navigated the expectations placed on her as a bishop’s wife while dealing with postpartum depression and Hashimoto’s disease. Her faith crisis deepened as she witnessed the Church’s treatment of LGBTQ+ youth and the lack of support for struggling members.
Together, Jared and Camille faced mounting pressures as their family’s entire social structure revolved around the Church. Camille eventually stopped attending, feeling emotionally drained, while Jared wrestled with his responsibilities as a Mormon bishop. The breaking point came when he suffered a severe mental health crisis, ultimately leading to his release in December 2022.
Their departure from the Church was met with silence—no one asked why they left, and they felt invisible in their community. Moving to Draper, they found healing outside of the Mormon Church, reconnecting with each other and redefining their beliefs. They discuss the pain of leaving, the loss of friendships, and the struggles of stepping away from an institution that shaped their identities.
Now, they focus on love, honesty, and living in the present. This interview explores the cost of faith, the resilience of personal growth, and the evolving nature of relationships beyond the walls of organized religion.
Join us as Jared and Camille share their story of transformation, offering insight, hope, and understanding to those on similar paths.
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-host: Margi Dehlin · Guests: Camille Johnson, Jared Johnson
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction and Episode Overview
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's November 6, 2024. The titles that I put together for today's episode are Becoming a Mormon Power Couple and Mormon Bishop Meltdown. We're going to be talking about those couples that are in every Mormon ward, kind of the IT couples, and what it takes to become an it couple. What are the costs and benefits of being an it couple or a popular couple in a Mormon ward in Utah? We'll say. And then we'll talk about mortal mental health issues as it relates to being a Mormon bishop. And what would lead a Mormon bishop to have two complete mental breakdowns? You know, does it have anything to do with how the church has designed the bishop calling, the responsibilities of being a Mormon bishop? And sort of in the Internet age, what makes being a Mormon bishop particularly difficult, even during a time of COVID So we're gonna be covering a lot of really cool stuff. We have great guests for today. I'm joined by my co host, Margi. Hey, Margi H. Thanks for joining us.
Margi Dehlin [00:01:04] My pleasure.
John Dehlin [00:01:05] And the couple we have today are Jared and Camille Johnson. Hey, Jared and Camille.
Camille Johnson [00:01:11] Hey. Hello.
John Dehlin [00:01:12] Thanks for joining us.
Jared Johnson [00:01:13] Thank you.
Camille Johnson [00:01:13] Thanks for having us.
John Dehlin [00:01:15] And there's so much more we're going to be talking about. Brad Wilcox. Brad Wilcox was Jared's mission president, one
Jared Johnson [00:01:21] of my mission presidents.
John Dehlin [00:01:22] Yeah. As was Jeffrey R. Holland.
Jared Johnson [00:01:24] Yes. For a period of time, he helped out in the mission. Correct.
John Dehlin [00:01:27] Yeah. And Jared's had conversations with Brad Wilcox up until recently, so that's going to be interesting. For the. For those who don't know, Brad Wilcox is in the Young Men's Presidency for the Worldwide Church, and he's sort of a controversial youth leader in the Mormon Church that we've covered multiple times on past episodes, but we'll be talking about that and a lot more. So welcome, Jared and Camille to Mormon Stories.
Jared Johnson [00:01:51] Thanks again. We're excited to be here.
John Dehlin [00:01:53] It's also maybe worth making a shout out. The area where y' all sort of spent most of your time serving in Mormon wards was Eagle Mountain. Is. Is that right? Correct.
Jared Johnson [00:02:05] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:02:05] Okay. And Eagle Mountain. Tell us where Eagle Mountain is. Where is that?
Jared Johnson [00:02:09] It is about 20 mil, 20 miles west of Provo, just west of Utah Lake and Utah County. So a very highly concentrated Mormon population and just concentrated LDS community. So.
John Dehlin [00:02:25] Yeah. So that's where y' all were. That's where you were Bishop, and that's where you were before.
Jared Johnson [00:02:30] Correct.
John Dehlin [00:02:31] So, you know, for those who are interested in kind of Utah geography and pockets. Eagle Mountain is the place. And, Camille, it's probably worth mentioning that you also served in stake level young women's callings and had high levels of responsibility for your age as well. Is that right? I did, yeah.
Camille Johnson [00:02:51] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:02:52] So it's, you know, that's. That's what comes with being a Mormon power couple. Are y' all uncomfortable with that label?
Camille Johnson [00:02:59] A little.
Jared Johnson [00:03:00] A little bit. It kind of goes with the story a little bit.
John Dehlin [00:03:04] It's a little clickbaity.
Jared Johnson [00:03:05] Y.
John Dehlin [00:03:07] All right, so that's what we're gonna be covering today. And I thought, as we always do, it would make sense for each of you to have a chance to share an intention. Mostly for parents and believing family members that are gonna be wondering, why in the world would you come on Mormon Stories podcast and talk about really sensitive things? Camille, you're gonna be talking about your family of origin, and I think Jody Hildebrandt and LifeStar comes into your story. Is that right?
Camille Johnson [00:03:40] Yeah, a little bit. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:03:41] Yeah. So, like, why. We'll start with you, Camille. Why do you want to tell your story on Mormon Stories podcast?
Camille Johnson [00:03:50] It's a little bit selfish. I feel like I want to tell my story to just get it out and so that I'm able to be authentic and be who I am and share that love with other people that may be in the same situation as me and give them the hope and strength to be who they are.
John Dehlin [00:04:11] Okay, so for your own mental health and liberation.
Camille Johnson [00:04:15] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:04:15] Okay. Jared, how about you? Yeah, so Bishop Jared, by the way, you were bishop like two years ago, right?
Jared Johnson [00:04:21] Yeah, two years still to this? Yeah, two years.
John Dehlin [00:04:24] To this month.
Jared Johnson [00:04:24] Yeah, to this month.
John Dehlin [00:04:25] Okay.
Jared Johnson [00:04:26] Jeez. Okay. Yeah. But, you know, I've been thinking a lot about this, and I would say one of the motives and this might come. I just first want to say this might come kind of a shocking to some close family members and friends who are very active in the church. And my intention is not to impose or change anybody opinions in their faith about the church or their beliefs. But more, my faith transition has been more centered around love and being more authentic and really allowing myself and giving myself permission to accept where I'm at, and that's okay. But more to on the bishop side, I just know in that calling, there comes a lot of pressure and a lot of just high demand and a lot of mental health, especially my situation, especially being called as bishop during COVID And I know there's a lot of bishops out there in that similar situation, let alone maybe Any callings in leadership or stake presidencies. And so my hope is that, you know, not only can this story maybe help them and resonate with them a little bit, but also kind of what Camille was mentioning for selfish reasons, just allowing myself to share my story and to be able to, again, give myself permission that it's okay to take the next step. I'm still the same Jared Johnson, and I'm the same person, and it's just. I want to be more authentic and really allow myself that opportunity to share with others.
Camille Johnson [00:05:55] So.
Jared Johnson [00:05:55] And to move on and to move on the next.
John Dehlin [00:05:58] Yeah. Like, Jared, as I understand it, does your family even know that you. Maybe y' all aren't.
Jared Johnson [00:06:05] No.
John Dehlin [00:06:06] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [00:06:07] No. They.
John Dehlin [00:06:07] So this is the first time they're going to be hearing a lot of this.
Jared Johnson [00:06:10] Yeah, they. I haven't really been very open about it, and I've been trying to deconstruct in my own way, and I just found that this is hopefully maybe an opportunity for me to have an open and honest and genuine and authentic conversation with them. And. Yeah, just, you know, but no, to answer your question, John, no, this is. Will be the first time that I really talk to anybody about it. Even some of my close friends are then a few friends that we have that have walked away from the church and, you know, and also Zane Baird. Zane and Tina Baird has been an amazing. That was actually my first episode I ever listened to, and Zane and I have stayed in touch over the years.
John Dehlin [00:06:48] So this is a Mormon Stories episode.
Jared Johnson [00:06:50] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:06:50] Tell me if I've got this right. While you were serving as bishop two years ago and struggling, Camille had watched the Tina and Zane Beard, which was one of the two bishops who I've interviewed on Mormon Stories podcast. While they were bishops, they were serving in Australia.
Jared Johnson [00:07:08] Correct.
John Dehlin [00:07:09] And he wanted. He lost his faith as a Mormon bishop in Australia, and he wanted to do his interview while serving as a bishop. And so, Camille, when you saw Jared struggling as a bishop, you had watched that interview and then shared it with Jared so that he could.
Jared Johnson [00:07:29] What?
John Dehlin [00:07:29] Why'd you do that?
Camille Johnson [00:07:30] Just relate to it so that he didn't feel like he was alone or crazy, you know, because I think in the church, you get this idea that, like, it has to. You know, it's. It's hard. It's. You sacrifice it, but you're going to get blessings. And I feel like he needed to know that it wasn't okay to be suffering as much as he was suffering.
Margi Dehlin [00:07:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:07:55] So shout out to Zane and Tina, thanks for sharing your Story.
Jared Johnson [00:07:58] Yes. Zayn, I love you, man. Thank you for all the support.
Camille Johnson [00:08:01] I love you.
John Dehlin [00:08:02] Yeah. And this is a continuation of a long series of Mormon stories, podcasts, interviewing church leaders. So we've interviewed a lot of bishops and Relief Society presidents and youth leaders, et cetera, just because it's always interesting to hear how people who are in it to win it, how things come unraveled or developed for them. So. All right, without any further ado, let's get going. So, Jared, should we start with just an overview of your Mormon upbringing? Yeah, I get the sense that your outline was pretty short in this area, right?
Jared's Mormon Childhood and Family Life
Jared Johnson [00:08:35] Yes, it was. I grew up in a very, very, just traditional LDS Mormon household. My parents are amazing. They still are amazing. I love them dearly. I've had a very close relationship with them. My dad was always serving in callings since I was little. I grew up in Utah, moved to Arizona for a few years, and then we moved back to South Jordan. And, yeah, he was in state callings. He was a bishop for five or six years. But growing up, I was. I always just never had the. I was always just trying not to make mistakes. That was just kind of ingrained in me not to make mistakes. And I was fortunate enough all in my childhood, and even teenage years just. I just never. I was just so focused on being. Trying to be that perfect. I was afraid to, you know, disappoint my parents. I was afraid to disappoint the church. I just didn't want to make any mistakes. And so I just found myself just going along, going to church every week, doing all the activities, doing everything I can. I was also heavily involved in sports. But, yeah, I mean, my. It was just a very traditional household. No real trauma or anything like that. Just a very good upbringing. And I am grateful for that upbringing. And my parents were a great example of, you know, working hard and being good examples. And, yeah, it's. You know, that's pretty much in my childhood years growing up. Very. Just traditional.
John Dehlin [00:10:02] So how many total kids did you parents?
Jared Johnson [00:10:04] There are seven of us.
John Dehlin [00:10:05] And you're where in the birth order?
Jared Johnson [00:10:06] I'm number five.
John Dehlin [00:10:08] Okay.
Jared Johnson [00:10:08] Number five. So towards the bottom of the. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:10:11] And were you like, you know, there's the Book of Mormon metaphor of, like, the Nephi in the family or the Laman and Lemuel in the family. Did you have any sort of reputation as one of seven siblings?
Jared Johnson [00:10:24] Maybe a little bit, yeah. Cause I, you know, Camille's smiling. Why are you smiling?
John Dehlin [00:10:30] Why are you smiling, Camille?
Camille Johnson [00:10:31] Because he totally is Nephi.
John Dehlin [00:10:33] Okay. He's trying to be humble.
Jared Johnson [00:10:36] Yeah, I wouldn't categorize myself as that, but yeah, I mean, I would say my older siblings and then myself in the last three, we almost had two different types of childhoods. Just because in my earlier days, I mean, my parents, my dad working very hard, going job to job, trying to finish up school. He actually worked for the church, office building, for the church prior to moving to Arizona. And I just remember him just bouncing around jobs for a while, so just struggling, just trying to get by and supporting your family and seven kids, that's a lot to support. And I remember my older siblings, you know, they weren't super active in sports, they weren't super active in school and stuff like that. And I really thrived in school, I thrived in sports. I was always that. It just. Things kind of came natural and easier for me. And so I think my parents saw that and I think my older siblings, I wouldn't say they were a little more rough, but they. They were a little more. What's the word I'm looking for? More rebellious. Little more rebellious, you know, earthly, which is probably good. Earthy. Earthy. Yeah, earthy. And. And I was just, you know, I was just that type of kid. I just didn't want to make any mistakes and I was just trying to live, do the things I should be doing, because that's what you're supposed to do.
Jared's Basketball Career and Teen Years
John Dehlin [00:11:59] And your basketball career was, you know, pretty advanced for. For what I've heard. Just talk us through kind of how your basketball career kind of went. You said, I think you mentioned you played with like, Danny Ainge's kids when you were living in Mesa.
Jared Johnson [00:12:14] Yeah, in Mesa. We were on the same AAU team, you know, in 9th. In. I was 9 years old, 10 years old. We moved back to Utah in. While I was in ninth grade, I made the high school basketball team where in ninth grade in South Jordan. I went to Copper Hills High School. We lived close to Bingham. My other siblings went to Bingham. I went to Copper Hills High School. And yeah, I played all four years there. My senior year, we ended up winning state, the state championship. I was.
John Dehlin [00:12:45] What year was that?
Jared Johnson [00:12:46] Year 2000.
Camille Johnson [00:12:47] Okay, you were the underdogs.
Jared Johnson [00:12:48] It was kind of a Cinderella story. Who'd you beat? We beat Brighton. Brighton High School and. Which is funny. It's kind of a funny story with that.
Camille Johnson [00:12:58] I was there.
Jared Johnson [00:12:58] She was actually there. We didn't know each other.
Camille Johnson [00:13:00] But why were you there for Brighton? I have my family.
John Dehlin [00:13:04] Did you go to Brighton?
Camille Johnson [00:13:05] No, my I have aunts and uncles that went there. And my grandpa Bob was just like a huge fan of any. Any basketball games.
Jared Johnson [00:13:14] And they're all big Bengal fans. And her aunt was actually the cheerleading coach.
Camille Johnson [00:13:18] Yeah, she was the cheerleader.
Jared Johnson [00:13:19] So they were all there, you know, supporting Brighton. And when we met, they're like, who was that redhead that was making all those shots? And, oh, that was me.
John Dehlin [00:13:27] And you're 6363-64-64?
Jared Johnson [00:13:29] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:13:30] You were shooting guard.
Jared Johnson [00:13:31] I was a shooting guard. Correct.
John Dehlin [00:13:32] And did you say you were designated, like, Mr. Basketball 5A for Utah?
Jared Johnson [00:13:37] Yeah, 5 MVP my senior year. Correct.
John Dehlin [00:13:39] In 2000.
Jared Johnson [00:13:40] In 2000, yeah. And I think they're 6A now, but at the time, that was the highest category.
John Dehlin [00:13:45] Oh, there was. It wasn't a 6A. So that was top.
Jared Johnson [00:13:48] That was five.
John Dehlin [00:13:49] Wow, that's amazing. Yeah. Okay, so you would have been. If you were the top basketball player in Utah for the state championship team, I would assume you might have been recruited by the Aggies or BYU or University of Utah.
Jared Johnson [00:14:08] Yeah, I was recruited out of high school. I had the mentality that I wanted to go play. And a lot of these bigger schools wanted me to. Red shirt or gray shirt? Because they were. One of the first questions they'd ask is, are you going on a mission? Are you going on a mission? Are you going on a mission? And I knew that was probably indicating that they would want me to probably not play that first year. And coming out thinking, oh, some all star, some, you know, successful basketball player, I'm like, I just want to play. So I ended up defaulting. Somebody actually gave me some guidance around, well, maybe if you go to a JC or a juco, you do really well. Those bigger schools will look at you and you could probably get a better scholarship and more of a, you know, be able to play and actually get more playing time. So I default and I end up signing with Dixie, which is now Utah Tech. I remember the coach down there, Coach Kidder. I signed a full ride scholarship to play with them, and I went down there for a tournament and one of the first questions he asked me was after I signed with him was, are you planning on going on a mission next year? And I kind of gave him that. I'm not sure, you know, let's just see how this year goes. Because I didn't. I wanted to play. I wanted to get more playing time. And so. But he said, well, I need to know because I have a couple players that I were trying to decide between. A transfer from San Diego State was coming in and he wanted me to know if he was going to end up. I was going to redshirting or. Or end up playing that year. So I gave it a lot of thought and I came home and talked to my parents and ended up talking to the Salt Lake Community College coach, Norm Parrish. And I decided that I was going to go on my mission. But that's. We'll get to that a little bit. So.
John Dehlin [00:15:50] Yeah, so like NCAA Division 1 level basketball.
Jared Johnson [00:15:54] Yeah. So it was.
John Dehlin [00:15:55] I mean, you ended up going juco.
Jared Johnson [00:15:59] Yeah, jco.
John Dehlin [00:16:00] But I mean, okay, cool. Going back to high school really quick. You know, on Mormon stories, we always talk about sort of worthiness issues because that's kind of an important way the Mormon Church interfaces with youth. So the two big ones that always come up are word of wisdom and law of chastity. Stu, anything there worth mentioning in your story?
Jared Johnson [00:16:22] No. Like I said, I really, I mean, I went to those parties, I hung out with, you know, individuals and like I said, in situations where there was alcohol and there were chastity issues, but I just didn't participate. I think I was more scared than anything else. Again, I didn't want to disappoint my parents. I didn't want to disappoint the church. I didn't want to have to face those types of things. I just didn't have that temptation because again, I was so worried about, you know, facing the aftermath or the consequences of that. But I will say one of the things I do remember in high school and this was, I would probably say one of the first questioning of the church process was I just remember some of friends that I had that had some maybe chastity issues or things they went through is they would always say, well, it's okay, I can just go through this and I'll just repent later. And I always thought that was interesting. I said, okay, if they can just have some issues and go through chastity and alcohol and just repent later and they're okay, and they're next week, they're, you know, passing the sacrament or they're blessing the sacrament and then it's okay and everything's okay because they can repent later. And I always thought, man, that's kind of weird, but I don't want to do that. I'm going to stay away from those things. And so I do remember thinking back, that was one of the first kind of questioning policy or process that I thought was really interesting. That just didn't sit well with me.
John Dehlin [00:17:49] Okay. Okay. Anything did you go to seminary all four years?
Jared Johnson [00:17:57] I graduated seminary. I don't know if I necessarily went, but.
John Dehlin [00:18:01] So they let you graduate even though you didn't?
Jared Johnson [00:18:02] I ended up graduating. They. You could do packets if you didn't go. I would always make sure seminary was always first period so I could, you know, not go or show up and leave or whatever. But I. I went, but I was not a regular seminary attendee. But I end up graduating just because, like, hey, I don't know if. Because my dad was bishop all during high school, and they just said, here, if you want to graduate, just do these packets, fill these out, and you can turn it in. We'll give your seminary diploma. And what were your.
John Dehlin [00:18:30] Were your beliefs pretty orthodox? Did you. Were you into church doctrine? Church, you know, scripture, like church teachings, theology, that kind of stuff?
Jared Johnson [00:18:39] Yeah, I mean, I. I would. I mean, growing up, my parents did their best in trying to do scripture study and prayer and things like that. But, you know, family home, evening. But, you know, like any family with a lot of kids, it's not always ends up being a positive experience. Just. That's a lot of kids to deal with. And. But they did their best. And I. I did it just because I was supposed to. I went through the motions just because I was supposed to. And that's what every week they say, read your scriptures, say your prayers. And I did it, but I didn't really do it because I was. I had the motive of I want to really get into the doctrine, I want to learn. I just did it because that's what I was supposed to do. And that's what they tell you you need to do, and you'll be okay and you'll be blessed if you do it.
John Dehlin [00:19:25] And your beliefs, you know, about the church were what, Just all the normal things?
Jared Johnson [00:19:30] Yeah, just the normal things. Like, hey, you know, Joseph Smith was a prophet. Okay, that sounds good. I'll believe that. You know, the plan of salvation. Yeah, that sounds good. I'll believe that. I was just very. Just. I trusted the process, I guess I trusted the process. And you know what my leaders told me? And I thought that's what. Because that's what you're supposed to do. That's just what you're, you know, try not to go off the rail. I wanted to hold tight to that iron rod and not look up at the great and spacious building. I didn't want to, like, falter.
Camille Johnson [00:19:59] Right.
John Dehlin [00:20:00] Yeah. I have to ask this just a geek out on basketball just for one minute.
Jared Johnson [00:20:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:20:04] Did you have any favorite NBA basketball players that inspired you at all?
Jared Johnson [00:20:09] The 93, 94 Phoenix Suns. Dan Marley was like my idol. Yeah, so Dan Marley was my idol. That was my big thing. So he was a good shooter. He was.
John Dehlin [00:20:19] And you were a good shooter.
Jared Johnson [00:20:20] That's what kind of resonated with me. Like, I want to be that type of player. But that team, the Charles Barkley, Kevin Johnson, those years, Danny Ainge, Tom Chambers. Yeah, that was there. And then I end up moving to Utah the next couple of years in 97, 98. So I had four rough years of NBA championships with Jordan, the Bulls, just dominating those four very harsh years, in my opinion.
John Dehlin [00:20:44] So, yeah, fun.
Margi Dehlin [00:20:46] Can I ask you a couple questions about your family system? A little bit?
John Dehlin [00:20:50] Sure.
Margi Dehlin [00:20:50] So it sounds like the way you've described it, your family was like an overlay for church, right? Like, it was kind of very similar. Similar culture overall, similar belief. How would you describe your experience with your parents with regard to, like, was it high control? Was it more approval? Like the mechanism to which you experienced love or let's say lack thereof with behavior? What was your experience like?
Jared Johnson [00:21:26] Yeah, that's interesting because like I mentioned earlier, I feel like my four older siblings almost had like a different upbringing than the bottom three. I feel like as, you know, as parents, you learn and grow and you learn how to be a parent. There's no manual to become a parent. And I feel like the older siblings, there was more of a control, more of a strict environment in our household with them. And then for me, it was more about love and support and, you know, doing anything and anything they can to support me and my upbringing. We had a very, very close relationship. Like I said, like I said, it was nothing like, you have to do this or you have to do that, or you have to go to church every week or you have to go to scouts, which I was not very involved in as well at all. Just because I was so busy with sports during the week. I was not a regular young men weekly activity goer. You know, they knew I didn't really attend seminary. I didn't have a lot of, like I said, issues. I think the most rebellious thing I did is I maybe had a little bit of a mouth and a little bit of language. You know, my mom would catch me and she would joke about it and that's about it. Right. So it wasn't a very controlling environment at all. It was definitely more of a love and support and supporting me whenever I needed to, you know, and to, you know, to follow my, my passions. And my accomplish my goals and yeah, thanks for that.
Margi Dehlin [00:22:54] And then a follow up to. Do you remember as a teen having a sense, like, it sounds like your dad was bishop, which oftentimes bishops, like the families are a bit idealized. I think, like, there's a little public facing. I think that can happen anyway. I don't know if that was true for you, but also with you, as you've described yourself in comparison to your siblings and being much more. It sounds like trying to do all the things to not make mistakes. It sounds like excellence. Like you were really, you know, quite successful in ways that maybe they didn't experience at that time. Tell me about this idea of like, your value for yourself. Was there a sense of you feeling special, you feeling different, let's say, than other people?
Jared Johnson [00:23:49] Yeah, that's an interesting question. I don't know if I've ever thought about it that way, that I was above them in any way. I just felt like, oh, I've. Out of all my siblings, I've probably excelled the most, especially in sports. And so when my parents saw that, I think it was. They had a lot of almost like hyper focused on me. And it took away a little bit away from them, especially my. Excuse me, my other siblings. And. And so again, I don't think I felt like I was an overachiever. I was just making sure that I did all the right things. I didn't want to mess up to hurt that relationship with my parents. And maybe because I saw my older siblings maybe make a few mistakes and do some of those not necessarily rebellious things, but I saw that I would say, I don't want to do that. Like my two older brothers, they would always fight and do these things. I'm like, okay, I don't want to be a part of that. I was more like the peacemaker. And maybe I saw my older siblings getting some disagreements with my parents. Okay. So I was very cautious and very observant with those things growing up. And I saw them, I said, okay, my parents don't like that, so I'm not going to do those things.
Margi Dehlin [00:25:06] Right. So in some ways too, it sounds like that peacefulness, like averse to conflict maybe, and disappointing people.
Jared Johnson [00:25:14] Correct.
Margi Dehlin [00:25:14] Would you say that a bit? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Thanks.
John Dehlin [00:25:19] Okay. So I think that gives us a good sense of your life, kind of pre mission.
Jared Johnson [00:25:23] Correct.
John Dehlin [00:25:23] Any other big things about your life that you want to mention before your mission?
Jared Johnson [00:25:27] No.
John Dehlin [00:25:27] Okay.
Camille Johnson [00:25:28] No.
Jared Johnson [00:25:28] So.
Camille's Early Mormon Upbringing
John Dehlin [00:25:29] All right, Camille, let's jump to you. What's. Tell us your. A little bit of your Early Mormon story. Pre meeting Jared.
Camille Johnson [00:25:35] Pre Jared, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:25:36] Preacher.
Camille Johnson [00:25:39] Well, I come from a very strong Mormonism background. I'm pretty sure we had pioneers, I don't know, but a lot of Mormonism. So great grandparents. Grandparents. And then my parents obviously were members and yeah, they got married in the temple and I think they probably struggled right off when they first got married as far as like I've heard. So their marriage was, you know, a little rough, but they stayed together, they worked together, they.
John Dehlin [00:26:24] What city kind of was your upbringing, so.
Camille Johnson [00:26:29] Or cities mostly Montrose, Colorado was where like my younger years. And then we moved around a lot with my dad's job. We came back to Utah and then we ended up going up to Vancouver, Washington and then back to Utah. And then I graduated from Davis High in Kaysville.
John Dehlin [00:26:51] Davis Darts.
Camille Johnson [00:26:52] Davis Darts, Yep. It's the best. The best school. So.
John Dehlin [00:26:57] And my dad tell people where Davis is in Utah.
Camille Johnson [00:27:00] It's in Kaysville. So north.
John Dehlin [00:27:04] It's like 30 minutes north of Salt Lake or. Yeah, yeah, okay.
Camille Johnson [00:27:07] Kind of there by like Farmington, like Lagoon area.
John Dehlin [00:27:11] Okay.
Camille Johnson [00:27:12] So. And my dad actually went to Davis as well, so his roots are deep in Kaysville.
John Dehlin [00:27:19] It's considered a pretty conservative area, kind of for orthodox Mormonism. It's not quite Rexburg, Idaho or Provo, Utah county, but, you know, bountiful Kaysville. That's. That's deep orthodox Mormon territory.
Jared Johnson [00:27:35] Yeah, for sure.
Camille Johnson [00:27:35] Right. And I, I feel like a lot of people stay there. Like I look at my dad's side of the family, like they grew up there, they married, stayed there, you know, raised their kids there. So. Yeah, that's a good. It's a good place.
Margi Dehlin [00:27:51] So what was your family culture like when you were growing up?
Camille Johnson [00:27:56] So a lot of my upbringing I remember just my parents really struggling and a lot of it just being focused on my parents marriage. So, you know, arguing, fighting. But there was also a lot of love. My mom just was the sweetest, like most giving person and really loved us and my dad as well. I think he. We had a really good relationship when I was younger and had this sweet friendship and we really connected. We have similar personalities and inside jokes and stuff like that, but we were very religious as far as like attending church and scripture study, family night.
Margi Dehlin [00:28:57] So it was more structured.
Camille Johnson [00:28:58] It was very structure. Yeah, very structured.
Jared Johnson [00:29:01] Sunday dinner.
Camille Johnson [00:29:01] Oh, Sunday dinner. Yeah. My mom cooked every day. We had family dinner every night. So I was the second oldest, oldest girl. So I was kind of the, I don't know, second mom. The second mom. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And Even now, I think I'm kind of that, like, everyone comes to me for everything. But, yeah, my older brother, you know, he had struggles and kind of the same as Jared's story. It's like I watched and observed and knew what, like, I needed to do to be good.
Margi Dehlin [00:29:42] Yes. Right. So to feel valued and loved and have approval.
Camille Johnson [00:29:49] Yeah. Is that what you mean? That way I thrive. Thrived and still thrive off of that idea of pleasing people and doing the right thing.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:03] Yeah. I'm curious for both of you. How about this for both of you? But this idea, I think sometimes when you have an older sibling or siblings that, let's just say, I mean, they're developmentally appropriate for a teen, but let's just say they explore more or show defiance or I would say individuality or differentiation from parents. Right. Exploring. But as a sibling, that's watching that and the stress that it causes. This system where obedience is paramount.
Camille Johnson [00:30:41] Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:41] Within the system. Were you both quite aware of, like, conscious as a teen? Like, I don't want to cause my parents stress. I don't want to have a lot of needs 100%. Okay. So you relate to that. How about you?
Jared Johnson [00:31:01] Yeah. Yeah. No, and I saw that a lot. And it's not like going back to kind of my intro. It's not like I didn't want to do those. Those things. I saw my friends, and they were having fun and doing all these things. But like you were saying, like, I just didn't want to put that stress or pressure when they said, be home by midnight. Like, I made sure I was home by midnight most of the time to. So they don't have that stress. Because again, I saw that in my older siblings, that they would come home late or they did get in trouble for whatever reason outside the home or issues at school or whatever it was. And, you know, so I just wanted to, you know, make sure I was. Didn't put the extra stress or pressure on my parents at all.
Margi Dehlin [00:31:38] Yeah. And you felt that, too. Did you feel it as a girl or more as a teen? Do you remember it kind of always being there, you being aware of it,
Camille Johnson [00:31:44] just always, always being there. And I feel like I was really protective of my mom and just wanted her to, you know, feel happy and everything. And for some reason, I put that on myself, too.
Margi Dehlin [00:32:00] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [00:32:01] To make sure she was okay, you know?
Margi Dehlin [00:32:04] Yeah. Kind of take care of her.
Camille Johnson [00:32:06] Yeah. So, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:32:11] So you sounds like you carried some burdens as a kid, seeing conflict in the home, feeling really connected, particularly with your mom and wanting to kind of take care of your mom almost as a parent might want to take care of their kid. Is that.
Camille Johnson [00:32:27] Yeah, yeah. And I think it was even more so as I got older. Like, I carried that responsibility of caring for her.
John Dehlin [00:32:36] Okay, so what else do you want to say about your childhood and adolescence?
Camille Johnson [00:32:45] What questions do you have?
Margi Dehlin [00:32:47] What kind of. How about this? In your teen years, what brought you alive? What do you remember really enjoying for yourself?
Camille Johnson [00:32:54] I love that. So I ran track in high school and that was kind of my outlet.
John Dehlin [00:33:02] What, what distance?
Camille Johnson [00:33:04] Around the 400.
John Dehlin [00:33:05] Oh, that's a hard love.
Margi Dehlin [00:33:07] The 400.
Camille Johnson [00:33:07] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [00:33:08] Oh, it's such a great place. Yeah.
Camille Johnson [00:33:10] So 400, four by four. And then I did high jump and long jump.
Margi Dehlin [00:33:14] Oh, fun. Wow.
Camille Johnson [00:33:15] Yeah. So that was kind of my thing. And then my junior year, I started beauty school. I really struggled in regular school and like, you know, that kind of thing. And so I wanted more of the hands on artsy kind of stuff. So I got into beauty school and started that my junior year. Wow. Yeah. So I was going part time. Hair school, high school, and high school
Jared Johnson [00:33:47] share about your seminary experience.
Camille Johnson [00:33:49] Oh, yeah, yeah. So this kind of goes to the topic of, like, modesty, you know, shame.
Margi Dehlin [00:34:01] Okay.
Camille Johnson [00:34:03] So my first day of high school, I went to seminary and I was wearing something similar to this, actually. It was like a sweat. This is just my style, I guess.
Margi Dehlin [00:34:14] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [00:34:14] Like, it just like, it wasn't even that revealing. But I was wearing a tank top and walked into my seminary class and my seminary teacher shook my hand and then lifted up my arm and said, sweaty pits. I was mortified. Mortified because I did have a sweating problem. Like, I really did have a sweating problem. Or I was. Was like, self conscious about that. And he did it to every girl that walked in with it.
Margi Dehlin [00:34:46] Oh, wow.
Camille Johnson [00:34:48] So, yeah. Yeah. So I didn't go very often to seminary and. And going back to the. The idea of, like, me wanting to do everything right. I wasn't like, obsessive with, like, reading my scriptures or saying my prayers. It was more like, what can I do to keep the peace and, like, be like, the good one. Yeah. Because I wasn't like a big reader. I never really felt like I was like a spiritual person. And I. I kind of always say that, like, I'm not very deep, I'm not very spiritual. I'm just, you know, interesting. So, yeah, that was kind of a. A big moment for me, just of embarrassment, I think, like.
Margi Dehlin [00:35:34] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [00:35:35] Of shame. Like, oh, my gosh. Okay. I. I don't want to Wear a tank top to school. Like, what if I see the seminary teacher and he says something to me? Or, you know. Yeah, so. And, and my parents weren't like, super strict with. I mean, I don't remember it being like, you can't wear that. You, you know, whatever. It was more like a personal thing. Like, I dressed appropriately and just because I didn't want to offend anybody or. That's right. And I think I was very insecure with myself, my body and the way I looked. So.
Margi Dehlin [00:36:14] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [00:36:15] So, yeah.
Modesty, Shame, and Repentance as a Teen
John Dehlin [00:36:16] In your outline, you. You have the. The bullet. It says, struggled with modesty and felt shame. Can you talk about that mindset of a Mormon teenage girl in Utah who's been told, don't show your shoulders. Don't you know your skirt needs to be below your knee? All the dress standards. And then what? A Mormon young woman teen in Utah. What do you mean by struggled with modesty? Why was it a struggle?
Camille Johnson [00:36:44] I think it was the struggle of, like, being scared of dressing in modestly.
John Dehlin [00:36:50] But why did you even want to wear something the church wouldn't want you to wear? And that's not a loaded question. I think it's natural to want to be healthy, dressing or dressing comfortably or whatever it is.
Camille Johnson [00:37:02] Right. Yeah. I think with that experience from seminary, and then I had another experience when I went in for a temple recommend interview, and the bishopric member, it wasn't. The bishop had commented that the skirt I was wearing wasn't appropriate for going to the temple. And so I feel like I had.
John Dehlin [00:37:29] Just to be clear, for our never Mormon audience, we're not talking a mini skirt here, right? No. Right. Describe what it, what that would be.
Camille Johnson [00:37:35] I mean, it was probably like 3 inches above my knee. Okay. You know, and, and I will. Yeah. Like, I didn't dress.
Jared Johnson [00:37:42] I remember you telling me, like, it was a dress that your aunt gave you and you, like, loved it. Like you felt special in it because you looked up to your aunt so much.
Camille Johnson [00:37:49] Yeah, yeah. My aunt had sent me a box of, like, hand me down clothes or whatever, and it was one of her skirts. And I just thought it was so cute. And, you know, I was feeling confident. And as soon as I walked in there, and that was the first thing he said to me was, this is not appropriate for you to wear to the temple. And I remember he. It was more of a question like, do you know that that is not appropriate to wear to the temple? And I was just like, I guess. And so it was more wanting to not put myself in these situations. Stay safe to stay. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:38:25] Just because it can feel right.
Camille Johnson [00:38:27] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:38:29] In front of your seminary class, if you're publicly shamed when you do wear a sleeveless, you know, top, which is
Camille Johnson [00:38:39] funny, because tank tops are gonna be okay soon. And when everyone gets the new garments.
Margi Dehlin [00:38:44] Yes, right, right.
Camille Johnson [00:38:46] So it's like, back then, we were so shamed for that.
Margi Dehlin [00:38:49] And you were already saying that you wanted to be good, which we can talk about what that means, particularly with young women's and the young women's program, what you're told over and over and over again, what it means to be good. And so it can feel like the role of. Did you feel like your role, basically, was to kind of have everyone else be comfortable?
Camille Johnson [00:39:15] Oh, for sure.
Margi Dehlin [00:39:16] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [00:39:17] Oh, my gosh. That is worded so perfectly. That is exactly like, that's my life. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:39:23] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [00:39:24] So. And. And it was drilled into us that we were walking pornography if we, you know, we're wearing shorts or tank top or things like that. And it was our responsibility to make sure that the boys have bad thoughts.
Margi Dehlin [00:39:40] Yeah, that's right.
Camille Johnson [00:39:43] And I even had a young woman leader that would ask us for all of our immodest clothing, and she would cut them up and make them into a stuffed animal for us.
Margi Dehlin [00:39:54] Oh, interesting.
Camille Johnson [00:39:55] Yeah. And I really didn't feel like I had a ton of immodest clothing. Like, I don't know. I was like, my tank tops that, like, go, you know, almost to my shoulders. And she kept asking me for them. Like, I really think that, you know, we could make something really great out of your immodest clothing. And I'm just like, yeah. And I never did it because, you know, I didn't want to give up my few. Few things that I had. I don't know.
Margi Dehlin [00:40:23] Yes. Yes. The amount of focus that goes into what you wear.
Camille Johnson [00:40:29] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:40:30] What you look like.
Camille Johnson [00:40:31] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:40:33] You mentioned in your outline you have had to repent for minor mistakes and had to read the miracle of forgiveness.
Camille Johnson [00:40:43] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:40:43] What do you want to share about that or not or nothing.
Camille Johnson [00:40:47] No, I don't mind. You know, obviously, you know, making out, boys going a little too far. And the funny thing is, thinking back on it, it was always the boy that was like, oh, I think we need to, like, you know, repent and go to our bishops and whatever. And I was like, okay. Like, I didn't think it was that bad, but, you know, and going into my bishop to confess this sin. Oh, my gosh. I was so mortified because I didn't even really understand, like, what petting was. Or heavy petting. And he would ask me these questions, and I'm like, I don't know. Yeah, I guess. And so he pretty much told me that I needed to stop taking the sacrament and read the Miracle Forgiveness, which I don't even think I opened up that book because I was like, I don't even like to read.
Margi Dehlin [00:41:45] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:41:47] So you didn't read it?
Margi Dehlin [00:41:48] No.
John Dehlin [00:41:48] You dodged a bullet.
Camille Johnson [00:41:49] Oh, I guess so.
John Dehlin [00:41:51] This is a book on worthiness written by Spencer W. Kimball, prophet of the Mormon Church, when I was growing up. And it's just. It calls homosexuality, like, an abomination. It says that masturbation leads to homosexuality. It decries bestiality, and it basically says, like, Mormon prophets have taught for 200 years that sexual transgression is next to murder in severity. And so you dodged a bullet. That's good. Okay, we mentioned the Jodi Hildebrandt stuff, and I don't know how much of that was pre getting married versus post marriage for you, but do you want to talk anything about any of. Just at a high level, what was going on with your family and your parents?
Camille Johnson [00:42:44] I mean, obviously my parents had their struggles, and a lot of the focus was on, you know, therapy and going to the bishop for help. And my dad was in and out of the house as far as, like, living with us, you know, because of these boundaries that my mom would set up. And I don't really know, like, the extent of. I don't really know if they
Margi Dehlin [00:43:19] were
Camille Johnson [00:43:19] involved with Jody Hildebrandt, but I do know that they were involved in the STAR program.
John Dehlin [00:43:26] I think it's called LifeStar.
Camille Johnson [00:43:27] LifeStar, yeah. Which is a.
John Dehlin [00:43:29] Which was the franchise of sex addiction therapy that Jody managed in Utah county doing basically Alcoholics Anonymous addiction support groups for Mormon men who were caught masturbating or looking at pornography. I'm not saying anything about your dad. I'm just saying.
Camille Johnson [00:43:47] Yeah, no, that was something that they were very involved with, was support groups and things like that. And my mom was very gung ho about just giving my dad chances and, you know, wanting to keep their marriage together because of the covenants that they made in the temple. And so, yeah, I think when I met Jared, I. I was like, okay, so we go to therapy first before we get married, because I need to make sure that, you know, you're good or, you know. But what.
John Dehlin [00:44:30] What would be your biggest fears for Jared based on what you experienced with your own family?
Camille Johnson [00:44:35] Oh, that's good.
Margi Dehlin [00:44:37] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [00:44:38] I mean, I definitely wanted a priesthood holder to be in my home and be able to lead my family. So, I mean, that's not a fear. That's kind of what I was most expecting, most important. Yeah. That was like, the number one thing that I thought I wanted.
Jared Johnson [00:44:55] But I remember your mom, before we got married, when we were getting a little more serious and talking about it, she actually pulled me aside and she pretty much gave me their life. Kind of her marriage experience and how that was. And this is some of the trauma that you've had, and this is some of the situations and issues that your family has had. And I know you've mentioned several times that you always felt like the bishops and stake presence kind of put a wedge in your parents relationship because your mom relied so much on them. Whenever she had things come up that she wanted to talk to somebody about, instead of talking to your dad about that, she would just go straight to the bishop or go straight to the stake president.
Camille Johnson [00:45:37] Right.
Jared Johnson [00:45:37] And so I thought that was an interesting perspective. But here I was just, you know, she's like, this is what Camille's been through.
Camille Johnson [00:45:43] I was like, okay, And Tara's coming from this, like, perfect family that, like, has never even, like, heard the word therapy or counseling. I was like, wait, what?
Jared Johnson [00:45:52] This is what we do, and this is how our family is. I was like, okay, but I still love her and I still want to help her and support her. But I was like, okay, well, thank you.
Camille Johnson [00:46:01] I think it was a lot for Jared to come into my family and kind of see the trauma and dynamics. The dynamics that we had.
Margi Dehlin [00:46:13] Yeah. And so back to the fears, though. What did you. What were you afraid of when moving into, like, kind of a relationship and something more serious.
Camille Johnson [00:46:25] Like, do you remember, I mean, obviously the fear of, like, having a husband addicted to pornography. Like, and. And not just, like, in my. From my family experience, like, from what the church was drilling into our minds of, like, you know, this problem that is destroying families and what it means about that person. Yeah, yeah. And so the fear of, like, is he being honest with me? Like, and we didn't really know each other very well. I mean, we'll get to that.
Jared Johnson [00:46:59] She actually tried calling it off a few times.
Camille Johnson [00:47:01] I did.
Jared Johnson [00:47:02] Because she was scared, I think.
Camille Johnson [00:47:03] I was so scared. I was so scared to get married because it just. It seemed hard.
Margi Dehlin [00:47:09] Totally. What you experienced and what you witnessed, it sounds like that you were like, well, I know these things can be really hard. I know these things don't work out.
Camille Johnson [00:47:19] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:47:19] Like, we think they will.
Camille Johnson [00:47:20] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:47:20] Or.
Camille Johnson [00:47:21] And even when you're doing everything that's right. When you get married in the temple, when you, you know, go to church and read your scriptures and all these things, like, things still happen.
Margi Dehlin [00:47:33] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [00:47:34] So.
Margi Dehlin [00:47:35] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:47:37] And was that anything y' all ever discussed? Like you asked, did you ever ask him before you got married, do you look at porn?
Jared Johnson [00:47:43] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:47:44] And do you promise not to talk about that?
Camille Johnson [00:47:46] Yeah. Well, do we want to. Do we want to go to his mission?
John Dehlin [00:47:50] Okay, that's too. That's too soon.
Jared Johnson [00:47:52] Yeah, we talked about it. I mean, if we want not to get into it really deep. But we talked about it, and I was just like. I mean, as any teenager. Well, crossed it.
Camille Johnson [00:48:02] We went to my family counselor for a session before we got married. And he asked you.
John Dehlin [00:48:10] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [00:48:11] Because your mom was one that kind of set it up. Like, you guys need to go to counseling. I was like, we're not even married yet. But okay. So I agreed to that. And we asked.
John Dehlin [00:48:20] But your mom was worried what, that
Camille Johnson [00:48:24] there would be issues or things that needed to be addressed before we got married.
John Dehlin [00:48:29] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:48:31] That's so much to hold as a. Wow. Yeah. Can I ask, was the family therapist LDs?
Camille Johnson [00:48:40] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [00:48:42] So, yeah.
Camille Johnson [00:48:44] And he. And he was very involved in my family for years. Years and years.
Jared Johnson [00:48:50] Especially your mom.
Camille Johnson [00:48:51] Yeah, my mom and dad. And then we did, like, family sessions and. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:48:59] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [00:49:01] So he was pretty aware of my situation.
John Dehlin [00:49:05] Yeah. I think it's probably every Mormon young woman's worst nightmare that her husband will look at porn and masturbate and. Or become a porn addict. But what's weird about in Mormonism is. And I know this because I worked as a therapist at Utah State University for six years getting my psychology PhD. And these men would come, these young Mormon men, before their mission, after their mission, and they'd say, I'm an addict. I'm a porn addict. And I'd be like, oh, my gosh, that must be terrible. And they'd say, yeah, like, every three weeks, I'll look at porn for 10 minutes, you know? Cause I need a release. But they would. That was enough to consider yourself an addict.
Camille Johnson [00:49:52] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:49:53] And that's what. Because that's what they've been taught by people like Jody Hildebrandt, by. By so many Mormon therapists. And that's why Margi's asking if you saw a Mormon therapist, because there's this super distorted. Well, first of all, porn's super ubiquitous in Utah. Porn use is super ubiquitous amongst Mormons. Even Mormon bishops we've had who admitted that they looked at porn while they were Mormon. Bishops, multiple Mormon bishops. So it's everywhere. And it's compared to cocaine addiction. And even 10 minutes once a month qualifies for an addiction. And so these people are pathologized. And I'm not trying to project anything about, like, your parents or what happened, but if they were seeing Jodi Hildebrandt and. Or LifeStar. Yeah, that's that. I'm guessing that culture permeated your family, your mom's fears, and so I think it's just important to bring that out because I think that's how you entered your marriage.
Camille Johnson [00:50:51] Yeah, for sure.
John Dehlin [00:50:52] Right?
Camille Johnson [00:50:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:50:53] Okay.
Camille Johnson [00:50:54] Exactly. Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:50:55] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:50:56] Anything else you want to say? So you love track, you pursued becoming a hairstylist, faith wise, by the time you graduate from high school, what's your faith like?
Camille Johnson [00:51:08] You just. It's what you do. Just like Jared, I. I don't remember ever having, like, super strong opinions about gospel topics. It was just like, you just believed. Oh, my patriarchal blessing is actually a big moment, because in my blessing, it says that I have the gift of faith. And I held on to that as, like, okay, I'm not very spiritual, I'm not very deep. I. I just have faith and that's all I need, and everything will be okay, and everything will be okay. And I just held onto that. I was always like, oh, I just have the gift of faith. So I'm not gonna question, I'm not gonna, you know, worry about anything that doesn't make sense to me. I'm just gonna just have faith. And so I did a lot of, like, just push things away because
Margi Dehlin [00:52:06] I
Camille Johnson [00:52:07] just didn't want to bother with it because I had the gift of faith.
Margi Dehlin [00:52:10] Right.
John Dehlin [00:52:10] You know,
Camille Johnson [00:52:13] so that was kind of a big moment for me to just hold onto that and carry on.
Faith and Family Anxiety Before Meeting Each Other
John Dehlin [00:52:18] Did you feel like the church worked for you? Like, Jared describes what I think is an idyllic, happy, healthy Mormon upbringing. Would you agree, Jared?
Jared Johnson [00:52:26] Yeah, 100%.
John Dehlin [00:52:27] Would you describe your Mormon upbringing similarly?
Camille Johnson [00:52:29] Yeah, yeah, for sure. I wasn't great. I go to young women's or even girls camp, but I think I missed a lot of years just because I didn't want to go. But it wasn't horrible. I don't remember it being, you know, just typical teenager, like, oh, I don't want to go.
John Dehlin [00:52:49] Okay, so. All right. Okay. Anything else about your teen years before we. Before we jump back to Jared's mission?
Margi Dehlin [00:53:00] I have a question, actually, before we do that. Did you feel like, amidst the tumult that you described, kind of being in your Home. Did you have anxiety about your family being forever?
Camille Johnson [00:53:16] Yes. Oh, my gosh, yes. That is a really good question. And we talked a lot about it, about, you know, sticking together and being together forever and what that looked like and what we had to do to stay strong and continue on. And with my parents, you know, back and forth with, we're gonna get divorced. We're not gonna get divorced. Dad's gonna live somewhere else or Dad's gonna live in the basement or, you know, whatever. And it was just this like, oh, my gosh, what are we gonna. Like, what are we gonna do?
Margi Dehlin [00:53:51] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [00:53:52] And how is that gonna look for eternity? Yeah, it was, it was, it was a thought.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:59] Did you also. Did you feel like it was something that you had to hold privately or did, did people know about what was going on? Like, did you have this sense of, like, that's something that our family knows, but we don't show that to other people, or was it something where people knew? And if so, did you have anxiety about that?
Camille Johnson [00:54:21] I did. I feel like we weren't like, super. What's the word? Like, outward about it. But for some reason it did feel like everybody was looking at us like we weren't the perfect family. And that could have just been my, like, insecurities of like, oh, my gosh, they, they know that, you know, we don't have the priesthood in our home or.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:54:49] What do you mean by not having the priesthood in your home?
Camille Johnson [00:54:51] Like, my dad didn't have the priesthood okay. At times. And so we didn't have, you know, that patriarch priesthood. I don't know, it just. And, and it probably was just more of like, me feeling like everyone knew that we weren't the perfect family.
John Dehlin [00:55:13] What was that like?
Camille Johnson [00:55:15] It was hard, I think. Yeah. I don't, I don't know. I think it just felt scary and sad.
Margi Dehlin [00:55:30] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [00:55:30] And so a lot of my, you know, things that I did, like to kind of keep my family happy was like, so that everyone. So that I could, like, help them be happy and support in the way that I can.
Margi Dehlin [00:55:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:55:49] So behave as well as you could to not add extra stress and sadness to a stressed out family? Basically, yeah. Okay. Did you have, what type of dreams for yourself did the church engender in terms of career or education or your future, you know?
Camille Johnson [00:56:07] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:56:08] And did that at all differ from what you wanted for yourself when you were a teen?
Camille Johnson [00:56:12] I don't think I really knew what I really wanted. I knew what the church wanted or what like the typical Mormon mom would be. I Did really loved doing hair and had a couple aunts that did hair, and I really looked up to them. And so that was, like. I wanted to say that that was, like, why I did it, why I went to beauty school and stuff, because I loved it. But it was also because it was something that I could do in the home while I had children.
Margi Dehlin [00:56:45] Right.
Camille Johnson [00:56:46] So. But I think that was, like, the. The reasoning for it. But it was. I also had a deep passion for it, too, and it ended up being a really good experience for me. So. Yeah, but, yeah, that was. That was the dream, to stay home with the babies and have a husband that cared for me, which you do.
A Brother's Early Mission Return and Its Impact
John Dehlin [00:57:14] Did you mention your brother coming home early from his mission? And do you want to talk about that?
Camille Johnson [00:57:18] Yeah, I would love to talk about that. So my brother. So my older brother went on a mission. I think I was. I must have been a senior in high school. And he went on a mission. And it was one of the years that was really hard with my parents, you know, talk of divorce again. And my brother went to the Dominican Republic on his mission, and he really struggled. And I think we knew that from the beginning that he was just having a really hard time as far as, like, depression and anxiety goes. And with him gone and my parents going through more intense, like, marriage problems, I felt like the responsibility to kind of, like, take care of my sibling, my younger siblings, and like, be kind of step in where my older brother wasn't there anymore. And so I really. I really missed him and I really wanted him home because our family was falling apart. And I don't even know how it happened, but somehow I found the phone number that I could reach him at in the Dominican because he had been talking with my mom because he wanted to come home, and he was suicidal and really, really struggled. And I think his mission president was determined to keep him out there, you know, try this medication, do this, switch companions, do all these things. But he really wanted to come home. So anyways, I somehow found out how to get ahold of him and called him one night and just, you know, told him that I wanted him to come home. And he eventually did. I don't know what that time frame was between the time that I had talked to him, but he struggled with the idea of preaching families are forever, and while his family is falling apart at home.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:36] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [00:59:38] So I think that was one of his, like, shelf breakers, maybe. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:59:43] So did he question his faith while he was a missionary?
Camille Johnson [00:59:46] Yeah, he always did, even before his mission, which was interesting, because he was very scriptorian, almost, like very, like, smart in the. The gospel and the scriptures and everything. And so for him to question things was kind of like, whoa. Like, why would you question, you know? And so when he came home from his mission, he ended up moving out and left the church.
John Dehlin [01:00:18] Whoa. And what was that like for you, to have your brother who you loved leave the church?
Camille Johnson [01:00:22] It was a heartbreak.
John Dehlin [01:00:23] Did I tell you why? And, you know, did you have that conversation?
Camille Johnson [01:00:26] No, I think it was just the typical, like, oh, well, he just lost his faith and he wants to sin and want to put the work in. And, you know, the typical.
Jared Johnson [01:00:36] Just when he talks about it, he has. He's had a lot of shame. He had a lot of shame coming home. And that guilt of coming home from a mission early and the perception that everybody has in the judgmental, you know, feeling that. And we were just talking to him not too long ago about that, and he still talks about that 20 years later.
Camille Johnson [01:00:54] Yeah, the shame.
John Dehlin [01:00:56] Yeah. Because, you know, when a Mormon missionary goes on a mission, usually he's been in his home ward or congregation for, I don't know, five, 10, 20 years. And everybody's excited because it's like, almost. They say it takes a village to raise a child. Yeah. Parents help get a kid on a mission, a Mormon kid on a mission, but so do ward members, youth leaders, bishops, even youth. So when a Mormon kid goes on a mission, it's like a rite of passage, and it's something the entire ward, congregation, community celebrates. So if they come home early, it's disappointing and it's shaming, and it's experienced as being something of a failure by the person coming home early. Right?
Camille Johnson [01:01:44] Yeah. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:01:46] So then to come home early and leave the church, that must have been really hard for him in Kaysville.
Camille Johnson [01:01:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:01:51] You know.
Camille Johnson [01:01:52] Yeah. Yeah. And even in, like, my extended family, like, you know, cousins and aunts and uncle, like, just like the. The dominating Mormonism and perfectionism, and then to have, you know, a nephew, Cousin come home, I think he felt a lot of embarrassment for that.
John Dehlin [01:02:16] Okay, and did that affect your relationship with him?
Camille Johnson [01:02:20] A little bit. We were really, really close growing up, and I feel like there was, like, a little phase where we kind of separated when he was making different choices, like drinking and stuff like that, because I was like, oh, I don't want to, like, be a part of that. But we always had a good friendship. I think with all of my siblings, we kind of. I call it the bonding trauma. Bonding. I feel like we have good relationships because of that, because we were all there for each other and kind of know what we went through.
John Dehlin [01:02:55] One last thing, because my parents got divorced and there was church discipline involved. My dad didn't ordain me as a deacon. So I relate to a lot of this, but that made me want to become more like Jared or you. But there are other siblings that took a different path. And when you're. When I can just imagine if your dad was not viewed always worthy by the church, and then your mom's super neurotically Mormon, then if your brother comes home from the mission and not only leaves the church, but then does normal, typical, healthy, developmental things for young adults. Yeah, that must have been really hard on him and really hard between him and your mom. And I don't know about your dad, you know?
Camille Johnson [01:03:43] Yeah, he nailed that on the head.
John Dehlin [01:03:45] Is that all right?
Camille Johnson [01:03:45] Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:03:48] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [01:03:49] And to go back to your experience and your phone call that you made and kind of what you were feeling in that moment, which is just sort of like, what I heard is, okay, the parents are not doing well. Like, can you help? Can you come home and help that? What resulted basically is he did come home, but he moved out. And then so you're like, wait, where is the help that I needed?
Camille Johnson [01:04:15] And he has said that actually recently since I've talked to him about my deconstruction of the church. And he gets very emotional about it, saying that he felt like he abandoned us. And he still carries that to this day. And it's not. He did not abandon us. He was doing what he needed to do for himself. And it wasn't his job to, you know, protect us or keep the family together or anything, but he carries that. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:04:47] Yeah. I think that's really important to say, particularly in family systems where the children become parentified and are actually trying to do the work of. And this isn't judgment on your parents. I think this is something that happens. But for us to understand ourselves as the children of that what happens when we're trying to keep things together that we have no control over as kids or stabilize things that we have no control over, it changes who you are. It changes how you relate, I think, in relationship to people, you know, so. But your experience is this sense of, like, overwhelm in the moment because you are trying to do that. You're looking around and saying, how do I, as a child stabilize this boat? Because it feels like it's going down.
Camille Johnson [01:05:38] Right, right.
Margi Dehlin [01:05:39] And then your experience developmentally at the time is like, okay, I didn't really get the help. And now we know it's not your brother's job to give you the help. Right. But your experience is, I'm not getting the help. And now he needs help.
Camille Johnson [01:05:52] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:05:53] So, like, now it's just not the parents. It's not just. But it's also now a sibling, you know, so it's just a lot for a teen growing up just trying to, like, honestly find safety in the world.
Jared Johnson [01:06:08] Yeah. She for sure felt that.
Camille Johnson [01:06:11] Yeah. And I just want to touch on really quickly. Just how great my parents are too. It's funny being a parent now with teenagers and everything and going through, you know, a faith crisis and, like, just life things and how hard it is to be a parent and, you know, make sure you're doing all the right things for all of your kids and everything. And I feel like my parents were doing what they thought was the best for our family at that time, you
Margi Dehlin [01:06:49] know, and being effortful, like, really working hard and trying.
Camille Johnson [01:06:54] Oh, yeah, yeah. It was a constant. Yeah. Thing that they were working on for us as a forever family. But also they were doing what the church was teaching them and guiding them to do by putting, you know, what was important, you know, in the. In their marriage. Marriage.
Margi Dehlin [01:07:17] Creating a focus on something.
Camille Johnson [01:07:19] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:07:20] That in the. In that approach actually really contribute. Either aggravated or contributed to the breaking of it.
Camille Johnson [01:07:29] Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:07:32] Well, this background's all super important. I mean, I shouldn't have even. I mean, power couple is weird, but, like, people who are in it to win it, like, people who are really committed to the church. These two upbringings are starting to form to make sense. Jared, you know, you were wanting to be the best kid you could be in a very committed Mormon family. And then, you know, Camille, you as well, with all the family stress and difficulty, you probably felt like the gospel would be a safety you could cling to to help avoid the stress that, you know, your family endured by. According to the perceptions of the Mormon mindset, you know, not everyone was living as. As they. They should.
Camille Johnson [01:08:19] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:08:20] Right.
Camille Johnson [01:08:20] Yep.
John Dehlin [01:08:21] Okay.
Camille Johnson [01:08:21] Yep. Exactly.
John Dehlin [01:08:23] Okay. Perfect. All right, so legerd. Let's hop back to your mission now, before we talk about your mission. So tell us where you served.
Jared's Mission to Chile
Jared Johnson [01:08:32] Chile. Santiago.
John Dehlin [01:08:33] East. Okay, so because I've covered Chile specifically on Mormon stories in several episodes, is it okay if I just give a little bit of background. Yeah. Before we talk about your mission.
Jared Johnson [01:08:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:08:44] Because I think it'll be relevant. Yeah. So my very first. For those who are new to Mormon stories or never Mormons, my very first Episode number one of Mormon Stories was My Mission in Guatemala. And it was in the late 80s. I started my mission in 88, 1988. My mission president was Gordon Romney. I was in the Guatemala City North Mission. And it was a time of massive growth statistically for the Mormon Church and Latin America, particularly in the Philippines. For the Mormon Church, we're going gangbusters. We're talking about thousands and thousands of monthly baptisms across multiple missions. Guatemala had three missions at the time, north, south and central. Actually, there might have been four. There's Quetzaltenago. I'm spacing that for a second. But anyway, my mission president, Gordon Romney, wanted to be the highest baptizing mission in the world. And there was one country that stood in our way, and that was Chile. Chile had a mission called the Vina del Mar Mission that had over a thousand baptisms in one month. And apparently the missionaries would like, go to the beach and just invite people, you want to get baptized, let's get baptized. And they just go baptize them right in the beach. Oftentimes, no discussions, no parental consent, hadn't even been to church. It was basically what was going on in Chile in the late 80s, early 90s was scam. Not every baptism, but it was kind of fraudulent, scammy baptisms. And I know this because I ended up having two lunches with Elder Jeffrey R. Holland prior to my excommunication, because my brother lined them up and he told me about his time in Chile, because there's a point in the early 2000s where Chile and the Philippines, they had grown so much statistically with baptisms. And again, Guatemala, we had like 700 baptisms a month, 750. There were some companionships in my mission that had 40 baptisms a month for a single companionship. There's only 30 days in a month. And they had 40 baptisms in a month. That's how crazy it was. But it was in my mission. It was scammy and fraudulent. And I think it was in Chile, too. And when I met with Elder Holland and he talked about his time in Chile, he acknowledged to me that that's he went there to clean up the mess. And so one other episode I'm going to refer you to, I interviewed Ted Lyon, my mentor from byu, who's the son of TH Edgar Lyon, who was an early church historian in the 20th century, friends with Lil Bennion and Eugene England and those types of people. But Ted Lyon was called to be a mission president in Chile, and then he got called back to be a temple president in Chile. And he was Elder Holland's interpreter while Elder Holland was in Chile. And so I had Ted Lyon on Mormon Stories to tell the story of Chile and baptisms in, you know, in that area. And there were, there were wards, tell me if I'm wrong, with branches or wards with thousands of members on the roll, but like 10 people attending. Am I exaggerating?
Jared Johnson [01:12:06] No. In fact, in one of the general conferences during that time, they actually did one of those. You know how they have like those in between the morning session and afternoon session? They do like an episode or a special. They actually did a special on one of the areas I was over. There was almost 2,000 members on the roll and there was less than 20 people on the active members and only a couple of priesthood holders.
John Dehlin [01:12:31] So how many members of record?
Jared Johnson [01:12:32] There was close to 2,000 people on the records.
John Dehlin [01:12:35] And how many attending?
Jared Johnson [01:12:37] Well, to be exact, I actually remember this. I was actually looking at my journal. There were 17 active members and three priesthood holders. So us as the missionaries. Luckily the branch president was active. And so. But we were acting. We passed the sack and we blessed the sack and we gave the talks. We, we did everything during that time.
John Dehlin [01:12:53] Yeah, yeah. So just so people know, when the Mormon church claims 17 million members, there's really only about 5 million, 4 to 5 million actively attending self identifying Mormons. And 2/3 either fell away from the church or left the church or were part of these scammy third world baptisms that happened in, in the Philippines, in Latin America, elsewhere. And that's what's going on in Africa to a large extent right now. But during this early 2000s time, Jeffrey R. Holland goes to Chile and Dallin H. Oaks goes to the Philippines to clean up the mess. And if you listen to that interview with TE Edgar Lyon, with Ted Lyon, who I interviewed, he acknowledges that elder Holland closed 30 stakes while he was in Chile. So I give all that as context number one. So you'll go back and listen to those episodes because they're really interesting. They're kind of classic Mormon stories episodes, but also that, you know, that was in late 80s, early 90s, so you're there 10 years later, sort of coming into a country. And by the way, I also interviewed Roger Hendricks, who was a mission president in Chile. That was another great series. But that's the context you came into when you went to your mission in Chile.
Jared Johnson [01:14:14] Yeah, absolutely.
John Dehlin [01:14:15] Okay, so now that we got there, what was it like to get called to Chile? And were you excited?
Jared Johnson [01:14:22] Yeah, so I was super excited, first of all, because my brother was there as well. He served in Chile as well and in the south mission. I was in the east mission. And going back to the stakes, he actually came in and condensed a couple of actually missions. But then a couple years later they end up adding more missions. But one thing I just wanted to add prior to my mission, if that's okay, is so again, going back to my kind of my introduction, I was on a full ride scholarship and I was really trying to figure out if I should go on a mission or not. And I had a couple of friends that said, that's just what you need to do. And I was told, you're 19. Back when I was 19 years old, now it's 18. But they just said that's what you need to do. That's at where you're supposed to do. I didn't say anything, you know, I didn't feel any pressure from my parents, but they said that's what you needed to do. So did you, did you.
John Dehlin [01:15:10] Were you at Dixie your first year, right?
Jared Johnson [01:15:12] Yeah, but I ended up transferring up to Salt Lake Community College, actually.
John Dehlin [01:15:14] Which is before your mission.
Jared Johnson [01:15:15] Before my mission.
John Dehlin [01:15:16] So really quick, did you start in either of those years or did you even play for Dixie?
Jared Johnson [01:15:23] No, because going back on that, I ended up going back down telling Coach Kidder, the basketball coach at the time, saying, I am going to go on my mission. That's what I'm supposed to do when I turn 19. Because you graduated and you had a full year right back then. And now a lot of young men are leaving right after high school, which that's another story. But I'll talk about that later. When I was bishop, but he said, well, if that's the case, we're going to go ahead and have you red shirt. But if you'd like, I talked to Coach Norm Parish at La Salle Community College and you can go ahead and he actually thinks he could bring you on the team, actually get a little more playing time. So that's what I ended up doing. But I did decide to go ahead. He was very proud mission. Had a really strong, A lot of missionaries return, missionaries play for him. So he really understood while I was coming from. And I still love him. He's an amazing guy. He's actually a head coach at Westminster right now, so. But during this time, right before I mission, I in my ward, my home ward, my dad again, my dad was bishop and there was a lady that we home taught and she was the secretary for Elder Richard G. Scott, who was a member of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. And I remember he was over Latin America. He was over Latin America.
John Dehlin [01:16:33] Yeah. Because he came to my mission while I was a missionary.
Jared Johnson [01:16:35] Correct.
John Dehlin [01:16:36] And spoke to us. Yeah.
Jared Johnson [01:16:37] And he was also a mission president in Argentina. And when he found out that through his secretary that I was going to Chile, he found out that my mission president, which was President Gardner, he was his AP when he was serving as a mission president in Argentina. So I get a phone call from the church office saying that Elder Richard G. Scott would like to have me come in for an interview. And I was like, I didn't really know what to expect.
John Dehlin [01:17:10] Have you ever met an apostle, Mormon apostle before?
Margi Dehlin [01:17:13] No. No.
John Dehlin [01:17:13] And for never Mormons. The Mormon Church believes that Mormon apostles, there's 12 of them. There's actually 15. There's a first presidency, a prophet, two counselors, and then 12 apostles. Think Peter in the New Testament. Think Peter, James and John. Like Mormons believe that their apostles are like the 12 disciples of Jesus Christ. I didn't meet an apostle really until my mission and I basically just shook their hand. So like the idea of being called to church headquarters to privately meet with an apostle, that's like meeting the wizard in the wizard of Oz basically. Right.
Jared Johnson [01:17:47] Especially him, you know, again, general conference all the time. And he was very intense and talked really slow and had that typical apostle look. And you know, I was like, okay. Like I didn't know what to expect. I remember my parents had some things going on, so I actually drove there by myself. I ended up leaving my scriptures and I was so nervous, I ended up leaving it in my car, forgot about them. And it was just a really intense interview. I was there for almost two hours just speaking with him one on one in his office. I remember actually going to the elevator and walking out and James E. Foust was right there. And I believe at that time he was in the presidency. I believe he was a first or second counselor, first president. And so here I am, I see a couple apostles walking around and here I'm just this 18 year old, 19 year old. I wasn't even 19 yet because I left on my mission a couple days after I turned 19. 18 year old basketball kid, you know, I'm just in this room in a suit and just sweating probably, you know. So that was. And he told me, I heard you're going to Chile. Santiago kind of talking about some of the things like has a very high standard of baptizing, has a high standard of kind of the elite of the elite missions. And he kind of, I don't want to say fed in my ego a little bit, but you're, you know, you're considered one of the elect to be able to be called to go to Chile. And you know, on top of that I was going to be serving under his ap, who is one of the best mission presidents in the world. And here I am feeling all this pressure and stress. Like what am I. I was just a couple months ago doubting whether or not I was even going to go on a mission. Now I'm here I am in front of an apostle talking about all the pressure and the highest stress of going into this elite mission and just the expectations of the type of missionaries that go there and the type of mission that it was. And you know what the expectations were and got to baptize and you know, if you baptize one that's going to affect thousands and thousands of generations. And I'm just like, okay, you know, sure. And. But then it was super, I just remember it was super intense for me prior to going on my mission, so.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:03] Wow.
John Dehlin [01:20:03] And I have no idea why an apostle would, would take the time. I mean they're, they're basically managing a multi hundred billion dollar multinational corporation. So like why would an. I mean you could say they're just nice guys. But it blows my mind that a, that an apostle would take the time to just call a kid just, just about to go serve on a mission to meet with them privately. I don't even know how to explain it, do you?
Jared Johnson [01:20:32] And I honestly don't. But one thing I would say though is in my patriarchal blessing, it does say that I would serve with leaders, you know, great leaders of the church. And so here I was thinking, oh, you know Maya, I'm fulfilling my patriarchal blessing.
John Dehlin [01:20:47] This is, it says I'm going to
Jared Johnson [01:20:48] be top leader in the church.
John Dehlin [01:20:50] It makes sense I would meet with a third apostle.
Jared Johnson [01:20:52] Now come to find out, you know, a lot of patriarchal blessings say that, but that's later on. But here I am again. 18 year old kid. You know, just to answer your question, John, I don't know how to explain. I don't know why. All I remember is walking in this big beautiful office with amazing doors overlooking the temple square and him kind of highlighting his beautiful office and a picture of his wife behind him. And you know, just I was more like, wow, this is a beautiful 1012 foot ceilings and just the majesty of this beautiful building. You know, he had a set of the original scriptures behind him in a box and he let me touch it. And I just felt like it was just intense. All just very, very intense interview.
John Dehlin [01:21:36] You probably don't remember much about what he told you, right?
Jared Johnson [01:21:38] I don't. I think I was so celebrity shocked. Yeah. Like shocked. I do just remember talking about the select mission and I remember that aspect of it and make sure I'm there for the right reasons and making sure. Just putting almost pressure on me that I was pretty select and or elect to be able to, you know, to be able to go to that mission and serve under President Gardner.
John Dehlin [01:22:02] So. Okay.
Camille Johnson [01:22:03] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:22:04] All right. So how'd that. What happened next?
Jared Johnson [01:22:06] Yeah, so interesting enough, I go to the MTC middle of July, and that's
John Dehlin [01:22:12] the Missionary Training center in Provo, Utah. No, it's fine.
Jared Johnson [01:22:15] Utah. So one thing I will just add to that kind of another dynamic of the stress and pressures is I was supposed to leave on my mission to Chile on September 13th of 2001, but we know a couple days will happen before that. So here I was getting, you know, as you know, the mission and the missionary Training center, the mtc. You're excited when you first get there, but you realize it's more kind of like a prison, really. I don't know any other way to explain it. And I was a very active person and being confined for 8 to 10 hours a day studying. I only got kicked out of playing basketball once. Because you did have good basketball in the mtc. We did. We had some serious. And I played it serious. I wanted to make sure people knew that I was quite the basketball player. And I did get kicked out once, but I remember kicked out.
John Dehlin [01:23:02] Wait, what do you mean?
Jared Johnson [01:23:03] Just they wouldn't let me come play because we got so competitive. So they. But yeah, so super excited. Getting ready to leave, you know, getting your flight plans, getting everything ready to go, you know, talking to your parents, you know, for the last time before you go to Chile. They were expected to meet me at the airport at that time, where they can go to the actual airport, not just the terminal, but actually go to the gate. Back then, pre 2001, you could do that. So we're having all these plans and making all these arrangements, and all of a sudden, September 11th happened a couple of days before I was supposed to live. And I remember in the mtc, they did not want us to know about what was going on at all. They did. We didn't know anything about what was going on. All I knew is we were in the big conference room and they said if you have any family that lives in, around the Washington D.C. area or downtown New York, please come to the front office. That's all they said. Did not tell us what else was going on. And so myself, I had a sister living in New York at the time and I had an elder in our, in my district that was. His dad, worked at the Pentagon. We both walked down to the office and they told us briefly what was going on. And they said, please make the phone call to make sure you're, they're okay. And we called them. I called my sister, she told me what was going on. I was like, what is going on? And that was it. One of the companions in my district also mentioned he talked to his dad and everything was okay with them and that was it. So I really didn't, you know, hear you. And also during this time. So I really didn't have that effect or that feeling that everybody went through during 2001 because I didn't know anything about that. Taxi. I went down to Chile and I saw all the news articles and we were, we actually couldn't leave for a couple of days because everybody in Chile was thinking that, oh, you're running away from going to war. US is going to war. US is going to war. And so I'm like, what am I getting myself into? Like again, the pressure. I think this is where a lot of it started now that I'm thinking back. A lot of the pressure and just stress of doing everything you should be doing. But why, why am I feeling like this? I shouldn't be feeling this because I was that perfect kid doing everything I was told to be doing. But I was feeling so much stress and anxiety and pressure from all these different aspects. So they end up postponing our flights. We're actually one of the first international flights to actually leave the U.S. we end up staying in the MTC for another week and we end up finally go down to Chile.
John Dehlin [01:25:42] Okay, so that's true.
Jared Johnson [01:25:43] I wanted a little, get a little bit of context because of the stress and anxiety of an 18 ninth year old kid. Kind of where it all started. So.
Margi Dehlin [01:25:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:25:53] All right, so what are the big things about your mission you want to share?
Jared Johnson [01:25:56] Yeah. So I arrived to Chile super excited, a lot of unknowns. And so I actually had five mission presidents.
John Dehlin [01:26:05] That's, you know, most people have two at the most.
Jared Johnson [01:26:08] At the most, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:26:09] But often one.
Jared Johnson [01:26:10] Yeah. So President Gardner was supposed to be my first mission president and he was supposed to go last all, all two years. He was there for exactly one year. Before me? No, two years before me. He was supposed to be leaving with me a year from now. So we actually had a really close relationship. He knew, somehow he knew that I met with Elder Richard G. Scott.
John Dehlin [01:26:31] Word got around.
Jared Johnson [01:26:32] Word got around that I had an interview with him. And so when I showed up at the airport and he was there, I was probably. He came and gave me a hug. He like, knew exactly who I was, which is also a little bit different because all these other missionaries he didn't know. He like knew exactly who I was, my background, and I'm like, hi. And so, yeah, so I, you know, got assigned my trainer, my companion, and we went on the typical things.
John Dehlin [01:26:59] Can I just say, thinking back now, and this is also based on my conversations with my brother who worked at church headquarters with top church leaders. I think the number one currency, the church leader to member facing dynamic, is all about obedience to authority. I think within top church leadership, the currency is trust. And I think that the way that these general authorities operate is they have all these relationships from middle school, elementary school, high school, missions, college, business, et cetera. There are all these families that they grew up with that they knew other church leaders. There's a lot of intermarrying going on between church leaders. And the way that people get, I think, groomed for leadership is through these interpersonal dynamics. So it happened in my mission too, where if a missionary was the son of a wealthy business owner or a high level church leader, they would get special attention from the mission president. The mission president would be made aware of them. They would often get the zone leader or the AP level positions. And it's all about networking and interpersonal relationships within Mormon leadership. And I would say it's about trust because if you know someone and their parents and their grandparents and you can, and you know that their people that are kind of church broke, that they could be trusted, then those are the people you want to invest in as your future leaders, I think.
Jared Johnson [01:28:39] And also one other dynamic was my uncle. He was a mission president in Paraguay at this time and he actually served with my mission president under Richard G. Scott as well, in Argentina. Yeah. So there was kind of a tight. So there is politics in Mormonism.
John Dehlin [01:28:57] Yeah. And it's just humor. It's human, it's nothing nefarious. And trust is important. So, you know.
Jared Johnson [01:29:03] Yeah. So anyway, I get to Chile, the typical getting settled in, not knowing the language, typical struggles, you know, you're, you know, trying to get to it. But a couple weeks into my mission, I remember we were Serving. Excuse me. We were attending the temple. The temple was in our mission. So we were able to go to the temple every, every transfer, which is about every six weeks. And remember I was. We were going to the temple. When we came home, home, they. Somebody had broke into our house and stole literally everything that I had. So I was left with my. What I was wearing and my scriptures and that was it. And I just remember, like, why is this happening to me? Why am I being punished for. Yeah, doing everything I was supposed to be doing everything I should be doing. Right. I ended up injuring myself and going to the hospital.
John Dehlin [01:29:54] You punched a wall.
Jared Johnson [01:29:55] I punched a wall.
John Dehlin [01:29:55] I broke your hand.
Jared Johnson [01:29:56] I broke my hand and end up passing out. Actually went to the hospital.
John Dehlin [01:30:02] By the way, basketball players shouldn't break their hands. Right.
Jared Johnson [01:30:05] And so I end up going to the hospital. And I remember the mission president coming in and the first thing he said to me is, I hate mission. I hate expensive missionaries. I thought, well, that's kind of intense. Like, I'm okay as well. But I just thought that was.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:18] Thanks for asking for asking.
Jared Johnson [01:30:20] And your sense was he just.
John Dehlin [01:30:22] Just was like corporate minded and was
Jared Johnson [01:30:25] trying to keep costs low. Yeah, he is a very businessman lawyer, very successful lawyer in Arizona. And so anyway, so. But fast forward. And I ended up having the option of coming home. End up having the option of coming home for my mission because of the severity of my injury or if I went home, I wouldn't be able to go back out. So I ended up staying. We ended up finding an American doctor from Dallas who ended up performing the surgery. But once again, I end up feeling this pressure once again and the stress and anxiety of, again, why am I going through these struggles? Cause you're not supposed to. You're supposed to be blessed, right? Cause that's what you're told. You're told if you do what you should be doing, you will be blessed for your efforts. And I thought that's why I was, you know, following all the rules. And that's why I was following what I'm told to be, you know, what the church told me to do.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:15] And so is that part of what was behind you? Punching a wall is just, it seems like when you're talking so far about your life, you've been able to experience pretty much that idea, you know, consistently. And also this level of like pressure and accumulating and in a moment of you're kind of, you have people, but you're also out on your own, right?
Jared Johnson [01:31:40] Oh, absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:41] Everything's stolen. Is that part of like, if you were going to describe behind the punch,
Jared Johnson [01:31:47] it was definitely an outlet. It was definitely out of anger. I was, I didn't have the greatest relationship with my trainer and so I. It was definitely out of like just letting it out and kind of like,
Margi Dehlin [01:32:02] why is this so hard?
Jared Johnson [01:32:03] Why is this so hard when I'm
Margi Dehlin [01:32:04] trying to do the good thing? Why is it so hard?
Jared Johnson [01:32:07] Correct. And a lot of things that up to that point just came very natural and easy for me. And so I was challenged.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:13] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [01:32:13] And so I felt that and I felt it a lot. And. And so I just let it all out and I punched the wall and end up hitting the 2 by 4 and just, literally just crushing my hand.
Camille Johnson [01:32:24] Which was so out of character for you.
John Dehlin [01:32:28] He doesn't have a temper, like a physical temper?
Camille Johnson [01:32:30] No, it rings.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:32] It does ring of like pressure, desperation, like a breaking point. Like psychologically a little. Right.
Jared Johnson [01:32:41] Oh, for sure.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:42] And needing to kind of.
Jared Johnson [01:32:44] So I ended up talking to my parents, figuring out what I should do. We end up again coming to the solution. I was just going to stay there because I didn't want to come home because you're not supposed to go home as a missionary. And I felt like that's what I was supposed to be. I was called a chili. I was part of the elect. That was that Elder Richard G. Scott told me. And I was determined to stick it out no matter how hard it was. And so I did end up having my surgery and just continue my mission. But I will say the mission. I absolutely loved my mission. I did. I just love the people there. I love the culture there. I loved who allowed me to become and I benefited a lot of who I am and my personality because of the benefits of what the mission did for me. Now I did also start to learn of some of what we refer to as choico, which is missionaries not doing the things they should be doing. Once I started figuring out the realities of some of the. What goes on with missionaries because we did, like I said, we had five mission presidents at one point. We didn't have any mission president. The AP's two 19 year olds were leading the mission for a month or two until they were trying to figure some things out. Because Richard Gardner, President Gardner, his wife ended up up getting cancer and they end up needing to come home early. And so. And right when he left early, that's when Elder Holland came down to. And at that same time was also called to be a zone leader. And so I had a lot of interactions with Elder Holland during this Time.
John Dehlin [01:34:18] What was Holland like?
Jared Johnson [01:34:20] Intense. I just remember the first thing he did when he arrived at Chile. He called all those owners, leaders in for a special meeting for our mission. And he lived in our mission as well. So we had a lot of interactions. And he knew that the dynamic, what was going on, how President Garner was leaving and we were going to be without a mission president, and he was going to have his first counselor, which is Elder Pratt, kind of come in as an interim. And Elder Pratt has some deep roots in Chile as well. And because his grandfather, great grandfather Joseph Smith actually assigned him, or Brigham Young assigned him to actually open up Chile and a lot of South America and Argentina, that's the roots he had. So, yes, we had a lot going on. We met with Elder Holland probably as a zone leader, probably every transfer, but just very intense. Very. I don't know how else to explain it, but very, you know, doctrine. This is how you do things. We got to make sure we're doing things the right way again. He ended up condensing some missions, so we actually brought in some additional missionaries.
John Dehlin [01:35:24] He collapsed missions?
Jared Johnson [01:35:25] Yeah, he collapsed a couple missions. Yeah. Because we went from, again, being one of the highest baptism missions in the world at that time, which was two to 300, maybe 400amonth. And we went down to like 80, I remember. And all of us were like, what should we do? So we focused a lot of reactivation and getting people to come back to church.
John Dehlin [01:35:42] Yeah. What I remember him telling me is it was a huge, huge embarrassment. It hurt the reputation of the Mormon Church to do all these beach baptisms and soccer baptisms and just all these fraudulent baptisms because oftentimes parents weren't informed that their kids. A lot of times the missionaries would target children, and they would target poor children who were just playing soccer, hanging around town, and they'd go take them right to the chapel and baptize them. And without parental consent. And so parents would find out their kids had been baptized by Mormon missionaries. He said that they were people picketing the area offices in Chile. They were so upset at what the church had done. And then on the other. Other hand, in terms of just wards, how do you. How do you home teach 2,000 people on the records with 20 members or with 40 members? And so they'd have. And they also built chapels as if the chapels matched the membership. And so again, you'd have these super nice wards with 10 or 20 people attending. But it was bad for the wards because, you know, how do you. Again, how does a branch president or bishop manage a ward with 2,000 members of record, but only 40 people attending.
Jared Johnson [01:37:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:37:02] So it really harmed the church for sure.
Jared Johnson [01:37:04] And like here in Utah, where you see a chapel literally on every corner. That's how it was in Chile. There's literally a chapel on almost every corner in Chile, Especially in our mission. We actually were a very, very small mission, geographic because of the amount of members we had in our area. So very, very interesting. So my second mission. So my second mission president was Elder Pratt and Elder
John Dehlin [01:37:32] Holland.
Jared Johnson [01:37:33] Other Holland. Excuse me. Yeah, For a couple months. And then Richard G. Scott, or excuse me, Richard Millett was our. He was a mission president actually in Dominican Republic. He was on the missionary board. He got asked to become our new mission president for a period of time. He's actually a strong author. Big. You know, so he was our mission president.
John Dehlin [01:37:53] I wonder if he's related to Bob Millett, who's the head of the religion department.
Jared Johnson [01:37:57] I don't know.
John Dehlin [01:37:57] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [01:37:58] But he was our mission president for about six months, and then his wife got diagnosed with cancer.
John Dehlin [01:38:03] Dang. So it's in the water. Yeah.
Jared Johnson [01:38:06] And so then my fourth mission president was an interim mission president. He was in. He lived in our mission. He got called to be a mission president in Venezuela. And President Guerrera. And then my last mission president during the last four or six months, whatever it was, was Brad Wilcox.
John Dehlin [01:38:27] So talk about Brad Wilcox because he's a celebrity. He's as close to a Paul Dunn like figure as we have in modern Mormonism. His general conference talk this past General conference opened a lot of eyes, I think. But he's sort of a celebrity of the youth is the best way. Dynamic, for sure. Talks, charismatic, but also sometimes really careless and offensive, but always attempting to be super entertaining. That's the Brad Wilcox I know. Tell us about the Brad Wilcox you met.
Jared Johnson [01:39:02] Yeah. So I end up getting a letter from him before he came to Chile. He actually sent me a letter because my sister in law, he was in the education system and my sister in law had some type of connection with him. And so I get this random letter from saying he's gonna be the new mission president. And we'd go back and forth for a while. At that time it was email because that's when they allowed to get emails. I was in that mission during the time. They're like, oh, you can actually allow to do emails now instead of handwritten letters. And so I ended up getting an email from him. We went back and forth for a while. He was asking about how the mission Was. And some of the issues and struggles and everything like that, and I was just like, super open with them. So I.
John Dehlin [01:39:36] You were his own leader, right?
Jared Johnson [01:39:37] I was a zone leader. Correct. I was a zone leader. And so, yeah, he came and everybody was definitely celebrity. We thought that we were getting a base class celebrity.
John Dehlin [01:39:47] So his reputation preceded him.
Jared Johnson [01:39:49] Oh, for sure. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:39:50] Because he was like the big speaker at efy, especially for youth. I think he was a BYU professor as well. Definitely church education.
Jared Johnson [01:39:58] Definitely church education, yeah. But everybody knew him from EFY, primarily. And so had you gone to efy? I never went.
John Dehlin [01:40:05] Did you go to efi?
Camille Johnson [01:40:05] I did.
John Dehlin [01:40:06] Did you ever see Brad Wilcox?
Camille Johnson [01:40:08] No, he wasn't at the one I went to, so.
John Dehlin [01:40:10] Margi, did you ever see Brad Wilcox at bfy? Margaret?
Margi Dehlin [01:40:16] I think that's after my time, maybe.
John Dehlin [01:40:19] Okay.
Jared Johnson [01:40:19] But, yeah, everybody, you know, a lot of the missionaries and we had probably 180, 200 missionaries. And a lot of the missionaries are like, oh, here comes Brad Wilcox. And I don't know if that. And he actually served his mission in Chile, and so there was a lot of connection there. And Elder Holland was still the area president. So here we are thinking, yeah, we are the elect. We're getting the elite of the elite coming our way. And by the same time, I started feeling a lot of. I knew what was going on the mission. I knew a lot of the. Some of the missionaries and the, you know, breaking the rules and not doing the things they should be doing. And so I just was staying on the right path. I was like, nope, that's not what you're supposed to be doing. And so. But yeah, the missionary. Excuse me. The mission was phenomenal experience for me. I absolutely loved it.
John Dehlin [01:41:03] And wait, Penny, Brad Wilcox stories of, like, what he's like to work with or.
Jared Johnson [01:41:08] No, just his personality. Yeah, just what you say.
John Dehlin [01:41:10] Is he mean? Is he nice? Is he fun?
Jared Johnson [01:41:12] Super charismatic. Obviously, people, you know, he loved us. His, you know, he made us feel like we were his own kids and, you know, just made us feel like, you know, we're all here, we're all part of the elect part being a part of this mission, and we are going to turn things around and get everything back on track the way a mission should be ran and operated. And we all. Everybody knew the issues we were going through and the transitions in Elder Holland, and we spent a lot of time with Brad Wilcox and other Holland during that time.
John Dehlin [01:41:43] So did a lot of missionaries get sent home for disobedience or breaking the rules? Do you know?
Jared Johnson [01:41:48] No, because well, President Gardner, his whole philosophy is, if I send missionaries home, they're going to go off the deep end and not they're going to fall away from the church. So he did everything he could in his power to keep missionaries there regardless of what they did or. And so. But Elder Holland, when he came, there was definitely some. Some transitions, let's just say that. So.
John Dehlin [01:42:12] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [01:42:13] Okay.
John Dehlin [01:42:14] So anything else from your mission before we move on?
Jared Johnson [01:42:16] No, just kind of, you know, follows. Again, I'm going to talk more about this, but again, this, the stress and pressure of everything that's going on. Right. And trying to do everything I should be doing and just seeing everything around me and feeling like, you know, I just need to make sure that I'm staying on the straight and narrow path. I'm holding tight to the iron rod because that's what I should be doing. And I now, looking back, I know that's where a lot of the. A lot of it started.
John Dehlin [01:42:42] Okay, but did it also feel amazing?
Jared Johnson [01:42:45] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, surrounding yourself with those types of individuals, being able to interact with Elder Holland and Brad Wilcox, and, you know, it did.
John Dehlin [01:42:54] Richard G. Scott.
Jared Johnson [01:42:54] Richard G. Scott.
John Dehlin [01:42:55] Two apostles. So you're a first name basis with two apostles by the time you're 21 years old? Yeah.
Jared Johnson [01:43:01] And so, yeah, I definitely felt like I was fulfilling my role as a young man and I was heading in the right direction to being the right type of disciple of Christ. And that's what the path I was striving for. And that's what. What the church tells you that you need to be doing.
John Dehlin [01:43:19] Yeah. Okay. Did you receive any advice on what you should do after you finish your mission by your mission president?
Jared Johnson [01:43:28] Yeah, because Brad, obviously, President Wilcox, he obviously did my exit interview and yeah, go to school because obviously he was a big component of education. So, you know, go to school. He knew that I had a scholarship lining up, you know, he. And so he's like, go, you know, go to school, go to. Go play basketball. I actually ended up having another surgery on my mission probably three or four months before I left. So I was like, half of my mission I was in a cast. But so, yeah, he gave me a lot of guidance about just the typical, get married, go find the right person, just continue being. Do everything you should be doing. And like, okay, you know, sure, that's okay. And I remember writing it down on my journal exactly what I wanted to do. He encouraged me to write a letter to my future wife, you know, and what the type of person I wanted her to be.
Margi Dehlin [01:44:19] And did you?
Jared Johnson [01:44:20] I did, Yeah. I did everything.
Camille Johnson [01:44:23] He gave it to me on our wedding day.
Jared Johnson [01:44:24] Yeah, our wedding day. Ended up giving it to her, and.
Margi Dehlin [01:44:26] Wow.
Jared Johnson [01:44:27] Yeah. So it was just, you know, and it wasn't like, I don't want to. Want to make it come across that I was perfect, because I wasn't. You know, we all have our stories and some flaws that we have, but I just. I just didn't want to disappoint anybody, and I didn't want to disappoint my parents, and I didn't want to disappoint the church. What they instilled in me, and they have a very clear path for you and the way you should be doing things and how you should do it and when you should do it and where you should do it. And I just am the type of person, if you tell me what to do and how to do it, I will give 110% to that. And that kind of alludes to fast forwards when I was Bishop and everything, but, yeah, that's just the type of person I was, you know? And same with basketball and sports. I think that's why I excelled, because you told me I need to shoot 200 shots a day. I'm gonna shoot 300 shots a day.
Camille Johnson [01:45:21] Right.
Jared Johnson [01:45:21] That's just the just type person I was.
Camille Johnson [01:45:25] That's how he is.
John Dehlin [01:45:27] Okay, so your scholarship, when he came
Jared Johnson [01:45:29] back, was where at Slick? Yep.
John Dehlin [01:45:31] Okay.
Jared Johnson [01:45:32] Salt Lake Community.
John Dehlin [01:45:32] Salt Lake Community College in Salt Lake. Okay.
Camille Johnson [01:45:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:45:35] All right. And so I guess your love story's next. Is that right or not? Yeah. Who wants to. Do you want to tell it?
Coming Home and Getting Married in the Temple
Jared Johnson [01:45:42] Well, what version of it?
John Dehlin [01:45:43] Yeah, let's hear Camille's version.
Margi Dehlin [01:45:46] Okay.
John Dehlin [01:45:49] So you graduated from high school, So
Camille Johnson [01:45:50] I graduated from hair.
John Dehlin [01:45:52] Is that right?
Camille Johnson [01:45:53] I was still going to beauty school the summer after high school, so I. I still had to get through and do my testing and everything. One of my friends from beauty school asked me to go down to a party.
Jared Johnson [01:46:12] Sundance.
Camille Johnson [01:46:12] Oh, yeah, A Sundance party one night. And, oh, my gosh, I, like, don't even know.
Jared Johnson [01:46:21] Like, her best friend was dating my best friend.
Camille Johnson [01:46:22] Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And so we ended up at the same party that night, and he was watching a basketball game, of course. And I was, you know, being my crazy, like, whatever. And he was like, can you. Can you move? I'm trying to watch the game.
John Dehlin [01:46:39] Jared was into the game?
Camille Johnson [01:46:40] Oh, yeah. He was into the game.
John Dehlin [01:46:42] Was this a college game?
Jared Johnson [01:46:43] No, I still remember. It was San Antonio spurs versus Jazz.
John Dehlin [01:46:46] So is this Tim Duncan?
Jared Johnson [01:46:47] Tim Duncan I still remember.
Camille Johnson [01:46:50] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:46:51] Let us all have a moment for the important details.
Camille Johnson [01:46:54] Yes. I can't believe you remember that.
Jared Johnson [01:46:56] I don't know why that's funny.
Camille Johnson [01:46:59] Yeah. So I was trying to get his attention. You know, he was sitting on the. You know those big love sacks? Oh, yeah. He was sitting on that. And I wanted to get his attention, so I, like, ran over to it and I, like, did a flip and, like, landed next to him and I was like, hi.
Margi Dehlin [01:47:15] Nice move.
John Dehlin [01:47:17] Yes.
Camille Johnson [01:47:17] Can I say throw some gymnastics in there a little.
Margi Dehlin [01:47:21] Yeah, right.
Camille Johnson [01:47:22] We ended up hanging up or hanging out the rest of the night and kind of hit it off and.
Jared Johnson [01:47:28] Well, you called me that next day and said, my birthday's.
Camille Johnson [01:47:30] Oh, yeah, yeah. We exchanged phone numbers and called him the next. Did I call you or did you call me? No way. Really? Okay.
Margi Dehlin [01:47:42] Hey, brilliant.
Camille Johnson [01:47:44] But it was my birthday, my 19th birthday, and he took me out on my birthday. That was our first date to Olive Garden.
John Dehlin [01:47:53] Oh, yeah. Love it.
Jared Johnson [01:47:55] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [01:47:56] So, yeah, kind of hit it off and he checked all of the boxes very quickly. Returned missionary, great family, basketball player.
Margi Dehlin [01:48:10] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [01:48:10] Thought he was pretty great.
Margi Dehlin [01:48:12] So do you remember what you. Your first kind of thought was with regard to Camille?
Camille Johnson [01:48:18] Yeah, he was annoyed with me.
John Dehlin [01:48:19] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [01:48:19] Well, maybe in the game after that thought.
Jared Johnson [01:48:22] No, I wasn't annoyed. It was just, you know, I was really into the game and. No, I just. Obviously she had a very bubbly personality. She still does. And, you know, I. Again, I had. I was dating people, but I dated anybody real serious and the same type of thing. She, like, checked the box a lot of different things.
Margi Dehlin [01:48:39] And what were the boxes that you had from?
Jared Johnson [01:48:42] Well, initially, obviously her looks. She was beautiful. And I'm like, okay, that was my first reaction. Like, wow, she's smoking hot. Like, I'm gonna make sure I.
Margi Dehlin [01:48:51] Keeping it real. Keeping it real out there.
Jared Johnson [01:48:54] That's the first reaction of every 20 or one return missionary with what you look for. And like they say, the better missionary you are, the better looking your wife is gonna be. That's a real thing? Oh, yeah, it's a real thing.
Margi Dehlin [01:49:08] No, I. I did. Was not aware of that. It is the correlation between those two things.
John Dehlin [01:49:12] Oh, yeah.
Jared Johnson [01:49:13] It is all like the amount of
Camille Johnson [01:49:14] prayers you say, like in public or something.
Jared Johnson [01:49:16] Yeah, whatever. The better missionary you are, you serve. And that was another big thing. Like, I actually took that to heart. Like, I took that literal. Like I'm saying, I'm going to serve a good mission. I'm going to be the best missionary I could be because I Want to make sure that I marry a beautiful, you know, righteous, righteous young woman. And, yeah, and that's what I did. I, you know, I saw her. I'm like, man, she's beautiful. We had a great night that night. And we went to Sundance, you know, during the Sundance Film Festival. And we up there and hung out, you know, because her birthday is January. January 19th. And so, you know, it was right around that Sundance Film Festival. So we went up there and. And I think after that night, we spent every day together.
Camille Johnson [01:50:00] Yeah, well, yeah, it was. It was fast.
Jared Johnson [01:50:03] So it was fast. So I had some scholar. After I played at Salt Lake Community College, I had some offers to go play back east. And we were like, okay, do we get married? Do we? Because you're not supposed to live together.
Camille Johnson [01:50:19] Well, wait, wait, wait. So our first date was January 19th.
Margi Dehlin [01:50:23] Okay.
John Dehlin [01:50:24] What year?
Camille Johnson [01:50:26] 2004. And then his mom worked for JetBlue, and so he flew. We flew standby to Long beach on Valentine's Day, and that was the first day he told me that he loved me at sunset on the beach. So cute. So that was, what, not even a month? And then. So that was January, February. And then end of February, we got engaged. We got engaged because I was just
Jared Johnson [01:50:58] finishing up my basketball at Slick.
Camille Johnson [01:51:00] Yeah. And then we got married in May.
Margi Dehlin [01:51:03] Oh, wow. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:51:04] So five months from meeting to marriage.
Jared Johnson [01:51:06] Correct.
Camille Johnson [01:51:07] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:51:07] And that's actually probably the average for kind of college age Mormon kids, right?
Jared Johnson [01:51:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah. At that time.
Camille Johnson [01:51:13] Oh, it didn't. It didn't feel crazy at all.
Jared Johnson [01:51:15] It didn't feel crazy at all.
Camille Johnson [01:51:15] Like, that was just. That's what you do. And when you find someone as amazing as Jared, you don't let them go. Even though I tried to break it off, she did.
Jared Johnson [01:51:23] Cause she. Like we talked about earlier, she had. You know, we talked about, you know, her relationship with her mom and some of the fears that she had. But again, we also had that pressure of, obviously, if I was gonna go out and play back East, I would lose her. She said, well, you just go out and play. I'll stay here. I said, no, you won't be around if I, you know, when I come back. And because I knew she was just, like, smoking hot and great personality, I knew she'd get snatched up really quick, so I didn't want to do that. And then I went out there, and it didn't end up working out anyway, but we already had planned to get married, so we were just like, let's just get married.
Margi Dehlin [01:51:53] Wow.
Camille Johnson [01:51:54] Yeah. So he chose me over basketball. That's the bottom line.
John Dehlin [01:51:59] Which temple did you get married in?
Jared Johnson [01:52:01] Salt Lake. Okay, Salt Lake.
Camille Johnson [01:52:03] Salt Lake Temple. David B. Burton married us.
John Dehlin [01:52:07] So he was the presiding bishop of the church.
Camille Johnson [01:52:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:52:10] So like the head business guy of the church, basically. Wasn't that a family member?
Camille Johnson [01:52:13] Yeah, he was my great uncle, so. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:52:18] And wasn't your grandpa a temple sealer as well?
Camille Johnson [01:52:22] My dad's side. Yeah, my dad's dad. My grandpa was a sailor, but that was later, after we had already gotten married. But yeah, he was a sailor and
Jared Johnson [01:52:30] he kept calling Camille Lori, my mom's name the whole time. So it was really awkward during the sailing.
Margi Dehlin [01:52:37] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [01:52:37] Oh, yeah, that did happen.
Margi Dehlin [01:52:39] Oh goodness.
Jared Johnson [01:52:40] Yeah, it was weird.
Margi Dehlin [01:52:41] Yeah. Like definitely, this is not as personal as it might be. It was based my. My name.
Camille Johnson [01:52:48] It's funny cuz, like I. I didn't really care who married us. It wasn't like, like, oh, we have to have, you know, Bishop Burton seal us. But it was kind of more my grandma that was like pushing for him. I mean, it was like the. Oh, we have, we have.
Jared Johnson [01:53:05] He's a family member, you know, like.
Margi Dehlin [01:53:07] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [01:53:07] Able to sealed the marriage and. But I mean, it was great.
Jared Johnson [01:53:13] But you'd gone to the temple for the first time right before that as well?
Camille Johnson [01:53:15] Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right. So when I went through the temple, so that was the week before we got married. And I never did the temple prep classes or anything.
Margi Dehlin [01:53:28] I just.
Camille Johnson [01:53:30] I don't know, I didn't have time.
Margi Dehlin [01:53:32] That's right.
Camille Johnson [01:53:33] I was barely 19 and. And it's just what you do. So. My mom loved the temple. She went to the temple every week and was just very devout, like temple goer. Yeah. And so I just trusted that, that, you know, that's the place to be. That's where you go and to feel the spirit. And I had heard, I don't even know where, but like that it was weird and that, you know, things happen, but no one really would say. And so it was like, what, what, what am I doing? Like, what do we do? And no one would really say, but they would say it's really weird. And it made me really nervous. And so I. Usually when you go through the temple, you invite like all your family, right? Like aunts, uncles, cousins, like whoever come when you go through the temple. And I was really scared because I thought something weird was gonna happen. Like I was gonna be naked in front of somebody or everybody or I literally don't even know what I was thinking, but I was nervous about it. And I think too, my dad couldn't be there. And so I had asked Jared if just his parents and my mom could come instead of making it like a big yeah or dill, because I was so nervous about it. And so, yeah. So we. I went through the temple and it was weird.
Margi Dehlin [01:55:01] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [01:55:03] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [01:55:04] So that was kind of an interesting.
Jared Johnson [01:55:06] And I didn't know what to expect either because I didn't know some of the stuff that goes on in the temple, you know, as far as I knew when to go for yourself, but when you get sealed. I didn't realize some of the. Some of the things that happened that are disclosed from her, like telling me certain things, but I didn't tell her, like, that was a big. I'll be like, like, what? Like, what is this? You know, it was super interesting.
Camille Johnson [01:55:31] And you're talking about the, like, temple name.
Jared Johnson [01:55:32] Weird. And I had never, you know, obviously I'd gone to the temple a lot during my mission. I'd gone to the. I went every, you know, during every transfer on my mission and before mission was in the mtc. And I was never a real big. I always thought it was weird. I mean, I actually went to the temple for the first time with my sister and her up and coming as her fiance. And I remember just, like, looking at each other like, what are we doing? Like, what is going on? Because nobody really tells you what goes on in the temple. It doesn't matter what type of temple prep you do. They don't tell you what goes on in the temple.
Margi Dehlin [01:56:07] Right.
Jared Johnson [01:56:09] So we'll talk a little bit more about the temple later on.
Margi Dehlin [01:56:11] Do you remember how you processed that? Was it just kind of like, oh, that was weird.
Camille Johnson [01:56:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:56:16] Or.
Margi Dehlin [01:56:17] And did you. Did it affect. If you wanted to go from that point?
Camille Johnson [01:56:22] I mean, it definitely. It wasn't like, oh, I'm not gonna do this.
Margi Dehlin [01:56:25] Okay.
Camille Johnson [01:56:25] It was like, this is what we do. This is what you do, and it's gonna be okay. And the whole thing of them saying everyone saying, like, you just come back. Just go often.
Margi Dehlin [01:56:38] Right. That'll help.
Camille Johnson [01:56:39] It will get better, you know, and things like that. And. And I really struggled with, like, memorizing things or, you know, so when you're in certain parts of the temple and you have to, like, say things. And I was so nervous, and I was just like, ah, I don't like that feeling of, like, not knowing what to say. And you have to be like.
Margi Dehlin [01:57:00] You have to kind of, like, be cued what to say.
Camille Johnson [01:57:02] Yeah. So that always made me really nervous. But it wasn't like, oh, I'm out now, because I was weird. It was just like. Yeah, that was weird.
Margi Dehlin [01:57:11] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [01:57:13] Let's just carry on.
Margi Dehlin [01:57:15] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [01:57:16] Because that's what I'm like, everyone that I know does this.
Margi Dehlin [01:57:19] Right.
Camille Johnson [01:57:20] So.
John Dehlin [01:57:22] And your mom, you know, just like, your mom would have been taught that if she's super righteous, then maybe the kids won't fall away. She would have been maniacally attending the temple as a way to keep her marriage alive or to, you know, offset the turmoil she was experiencing the home.
Camille Johnson [01:57:42] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:57:42] Because Mormons are taught that, like, going to the temple can have these magic powers, basically, to bless your lives.
Camille Johnson [01:57:48] Yeah, exactly. Right?
John Dehlin [01:57:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Camille Johnson [01:57:51] So.
John Dehlin [01:57:52] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So y' all got married in five months.
Camille Johnson [01:57:57] Yep, we got married. And Jared gave me his letter that he wrote on his mission to. To his future wife. I don't know. I should have.
John Dehlin [01:58:05] What did you think about it? Any memories of it or.
Camille Johnson [01:58:10] I do remember it was oddly, like, correct. Like, I think you even said, like, you would have dark brown hair and, like, it was almost like a manifestation. Yeah. It's kind of weird. I'm gonna have to find that.
John Dehlin [01:58:23] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [01:58:24] But it's like I. Manifest.
Camille Johnson [01:58:27] Yeah. Camille. Yeah.
Jared Johnson [01:58:29] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:58:31] Was there an explicit or unspoken understanding of what your life was going to be like, what you were both committing to? What was the contract, either explicitly or implicitly, you were both agreeing to when you got temple married? As Mormons, who wants to go?
Camille Johnson [01:58:49] I can go.
John Dehlin [01:58:51] Expectations. You know what I mean?
Camille Johnson [01:58:53] Funny enough, I don't think we ever even talked about it. Like, we just.
Jared Johnson [01:58:58] Things were happening so fast.
Camille Johnson [01:58:59] Yeah. It was so fast. And I think we just, like, were going through the check boxes, like, this is what you do. This is, you know, whatever. And when I met his family, I fell in love with his family and just, like, wanted to be a part of that. And they were just so great. It was like, kind of this Mormon outstanding family that I was going to be able to be a part of. And so we didn't even talk about, like, kids or any. It was just like, we just kind
Margi Dehlin [01:59:27] of, like, just kind of a lot of making assumptions. Right. Of commonality. It's kind of like.
Jared Johnson [01:59:33] For sure.
Camille Johnson [01:59:33] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:59:34] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [01:59:34] Like you said, we were just checking the box. Right. I mean, that's what my mission present. That's what Brad told me. I know. President Wilcox told me I needed to do.
Margi Dehlin [01:59:40] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [01:59:41] You know, that's kind of like, hey, your next step is to do this. And I said, okay. So as soon as I found that person, I'M like, okay, like, let's check the box. Let's go get married, you know, right in the temple.
Margi Dehlin [01:59:54] What was the next box? After you're married, what do we do next? Yeah, kids.
Jared Johnson [02:00:02] You have kids?
Camille Johnson [02:00:03] Yeah. And surprisingly, we waited a year until we got pregnant. So we had that. Yeah. And so we had that first year. I don't even know if that was really on purpose, but we waited a year and then got pregnant with our first. And she was born on Valentine's Day. So first day or first Valentine's, Jared told me he loved me. And then third Valentine's, we had a baby.
Margi Dehlin [02:00:31] Yeah. How about that?
Jared Johnson [02:00:33] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [02:00:35] So.
Jared Johnson [02:00:36] But, yeah, I mean, that was kind of our thing is, you know, we weren't super. I wouldn't say devout at that time. Like, we weren't super. Like, okay, let's work our way up. Let's go get callings, and let's go to the temple every single month, and let's do that. We. When we first married, we were just enjoying newlywed life, and we were both working. We never really saw each other because I was working a couple of jobs, I was going to school. She was working.
Camille Johnson [02:00:59] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [02:01:00] And we're just like, kind of doing our own thing and, you know, just like everybody. Young couple trying to figure out life and living with somebody 247 and, you know, trying to make it work. You know, I think it was just very typical. Very typical. Not anything out of the norm.
Camille Johnson [02:01:14] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [02:01:15] I don't think.
Camille Johnson [02:01:15] Yeah. And everything was just super easy for us. Like, we didn't ever, like, argue about
Margi Dehlin [02:01:20] anything or, like, so high compatibility, for sure.
Camille Johnson [02:01:24] Yeah. Yeah. And we're just like, whatever.
John Dehlin [02:01:29] So. So, like, I guess we can fast track what was that path from newlyweds, casual about church, like, committed to the church, but not intense about it. How did you go from there to ending up as a stake young women's leader and as a bishop? Like, take us through that path. You can go, even skipping years, you know, whatever.
Early Marriage, Real Estate, and Church Callings
Jared Johnson [02:01:52] So, yeah, so this is 2006 7, right around there. And, you know, I was in the real estate business. And so obviously we know what happened in 2008. And so a lot of the real estate and financial crisis happened, and so that put a little bit of a. An additional stress and strain on our relationship and, you know, kind of it just in general, just because the. Of the type of work that I did. But we ended up selling our house. We ended up selling a couple of rental properties that I had at that period of time, and we end up moving To Eagle Mountain. My parents. After my dad got released to being bishop, he moved out to Eagle Mountain. Eagle Mountain this time was up and coming. You know, huge community. Well, it's very small community at the time. We're like, yeah, it's quiet out there. You know, let's move out there. It's cheap.
John Dehlin [02:02:45] Is it around Utah Lake?
Jared Johnson [02:02:46] Basically, it's west of Utah Lake, about 10 minutes. So it's pretty far out there, but
John Dehlin [02:02:50] it's like, on the other side of Provo Orem, across the lake. Is that right?
Jared Johnson [02:02:54] Yeah. And it was just very affordable. I mean, that's where. That's mainly just because of what we were going through. It was just affordable. So that's why a lot of people actually moved there during that time. And as a new younger couple, that's kind of, you know, you're still, you know, that's just a part of it. So we moved out there. We actually moved in with my parents for a little bit. And then just a couple months after my dad had moved out there, he got called in to be the counselor in the stake presidency. And that added a little bit of stress, him now being in the stake presidency. And then we end up moving into just a rental property out there for a while. Well, and I think that's where it kind of started living. Seeing that example for my dad, seeing the example for my parents. My mom was released, Saudi president, and so we just started re. Recommitted, I guess you can say, and regular tailing of the temple and doing all things you should be doing.
John Dehlin [02:03:48] And so you'd start going monthly or. Yeah. Pray.
Camille Johnson [02:03:52] Oh, to the temple?
John Dehlin [02:03:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or every other month or once.
Jared Johnson [02:03:56] Yeah. I mean, we started going regularly. I think it was also because my parents did, and we, like, kind of felt that pressure that we needed to do it. Right. It was not more out of, oh, we're gonna go overachievers. It was more like, oh, you know,
Camille Johnson [02:04:08] this is what you do.
Jared Johnson [02:04:08] This is what you're supposed to be doing. Because we saw that's what my parents did. And they'd always invite us to go, and they'd go with the state presidency. And. And so we had two children at this time. And so for those who don't know,
John Dehlin [02:04:19] stake president is a leader over, like, 10 congregations, correct? Yeah. So.
Jared Johnson [02:04:25] So he was a counselor at that time. And then our stake ended up getting split because of the growth out there. And then he got called to be the new stake president.
John Dehlin [02:04:35] Sure.
Jared Johnson [02:04:36] And then when I was 29, I guess we're Kind of fast forwarding a little bit, but then I got called to be the high on the High Council.
John Dehlin [02:04:45] Okay, really quick. Would. This is just total Mormon randomness. Would your parents have Sunday dinners and invite all the children and grandchildren over?
Jared Johnson [02:04:54] Correct. Yep. So we would alternate pretty much every other week. Her would be her family one week, my family the next week.
John Dehlin [02:05:01] That's a big time Utah thing, right?
Jared Johnson [02:05:02] Correct. Yep.
Camille Johnson [02:05:03] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [02:05:03] The typical, you know, roast mashed potatoes. That's the typical, you know, very, very traditional. And we'd rotate every single week we were there at her parents or her mom's house because her mom, her parents ended up getting divorced at this time. And then my parents. Yeah. So this is where like the, the kind of, the level and expectation and the pressure really started building up because I got called to the High Council when my dad was right, when my dad got called to be the stake president.
Margi Dehlin [02:05:30] And you're in such close proximity.
Jared Johnson [02:05:32] Correct.
Margi Dehlin [02:05:32] To them as well. Which I think it makes all the sense that it, it would feel. You would feel that intensity. It's right in your space. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:05:42] For those who don't know a stake high council is 12, it's like 12 apostles for the stake. Correct. And it makes you a high priest. Right. You have to go from elder to high priest.
Jared Johnson [02:05:53] 28, 29.
Margi Dehlin [02:05:54] So greater status. There's greater status with that, but it's
John Dehlin [02:05:58] leadership track because you go from elder to high priest. It's a new ordination, but now you're at a stake level instead of a ward level. You're helping run 10 congregations. You go on the speaker circuit where you're speaking at two wards. You're assigned two wards or what?
Jared Johnson [02:06:14] Yeah, I was actually, I was actually overall, the missionary work in the stake, because I'd always talk right before that, I actually was a gospel doctrine teacher and I actually really enjoyed that. And I'd always talk about my mission, how great it was, and everything. We've already previously talked about. Right. And who I met with and who I interacted with. And.
John Dehlin [02:06:33] And if you could name drop apostles names to Mormons. Correct. That's money. That's social currency. Am I wrong?
Jared Johnson [02:06:41] Correct. Yeah. And so as a gospel doctrine teacher, it just came very natural for me. And I just, I love that calling. And then the next thing I know, here I'm a high Council, then I'm over the missionary work in the stake.
John Dehlin [02:06:50] Did anybody cry nepotism? Like when your stake president dad is calling you onto the Stake High Council? Was there anybody who's like, hey, this is, this is Nepotism. This is not a calling of God for sure.
Jared Johnson [02:07:03] And again, I want to tread a little bit lightly on this topic just because of respect to my dad and I love him. But also my sister that was living in New York, they had at this time moved to Utah. And he had called him to be the bishop. He moved into Eagle Mountain as well. In a different ward. No, actually it was in our ward for a little bit before we got split. So he actually got called to be the bishop. So here I am on the High Council, he was the bishop. My brother in law got called to be the bishop and then he was the stake president.
John Dehlin [02:07:35] And so, yeah, no shade on your dad at all. And this is how leadership positions work in the church. Like, it's no coincidence that Jeffrey R. Holland's son Matt is now a general authority. So Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, magically, his son Matthew Holland gets called as a general authority. You know, Gordon B. Hinckley's son Richard, magically was called as a general authority. Like leadership, if you want to move up in the ranks of the church, you have a higher probability of moving up the ranks if you have, you know, family members or connected people up the leadership chain. That's how leadership happens. You know, Mormons tend to think it's God inspiring the church leaders to call people, but the truth is they're going to call people who they trust, who they know, or in this case, who they love.
Jared Johnson [02:08:27] Yeah. So, yeah, obviously there was a lot of nepotism, probably more than we knew or heard heard about. But yeah, there was that pressure of it. And then the High Council, that's a whole nother thing again, being 28, 29 years old, going through some of the High Council things with. At the time, they referred to it as excommunication. But the disciplinary councils that I went through, we went through a period of time in that area where we had several a month.
John Dehlin [02:08:56] Can you talk about that? Let's slow down and talk about that. So why would the Mormon Church excommunicate someone? What were the types of excommunications? And it's a council. I was excommunicated. Margi was there. It's like the stake presidency. 12, 15 men around a table, maybe 16 if the secretary's there and you're basically put on trial.
Jared Johnson [02:09:16] Correct.
John Dehlin [02:09:17] To be kicked out of the church. So what were some of the most common scenarios that you participated in and what was that like?
Jared Johnson [02:09:24] Yeah, so, yeah, so exactly how you explained. But typically we would meet with individuals who had committed adultery or who had issues in the home, or I would say adultery and a lot of chastity was probably the main issues that we were dealing with.
John Dehlin [02:09:42] Was it mostly men? Mostly women.
Jared Johnson [02:09:43] Both men and women, Mostly men. Majority of them were men. And like I said, for a while there, we were getting several. A month in a single steak. In a single steak, yeah. And we had probably nine or 10. We were a smaller stake this time because we had just been recently split. But I was just like, what is going on? Like, I was immune to all this. I was in a bubble. Up to this point, I had never seen anything like this or even heard about anything like this. I didn't know stuff like that existed really. As far as the disciplinary councils, I didn't know anything about that.
Serving on the Stake High Council and Disciplinary Councils
John Dehlin [02:10:14] What were your impressions of the actual disciplinary councils when people were called to repent and or be excommunicated by this council of 15 men in a room? What are your memories of how that felt and whether it was a good or an unhealthy process? Yes.
Jared Johnson [02:10:34] So this is where. I really had compassion for those individuals, because here they are standing in front of. Sitting in front of, sharing their story and being very vulnerable about their. What had happened to them.
John Dehlin [02:10:55] So they had to tell the story of how they became adulterers.
Margi Dehlin [02:10:58] Basically.
Jared Johnson [02:10:58] Basically. Because what would happen is the stake president or stake presidency would allow them to share their story and then they go around the room and they open up. If any members of the High Council had questions for them, they would ask the individual questions and kind of put them on the spot.
John Dehlin [02:11:17] What kind of questions would you ask them?
Jared Johnson [02:11:19] Let's just say more in depth and detailed questions that I was comfortable sitting in a room with.
John Dehlin [02:11:27] So, like sexual questions.
Jared Johnson [02:11:28] Correct.
John Dehlin [02:11:28] Like, how far did you go?
Jared Johnson [02:11:30] Correct how many times? What all happened? Basically getting him to open up to see how. How much remorse he felt and if he really was repentant and was wanting to have the atonement a part of his life. And it. Some situations were extremely awkward. And being in a room where you have these majority of older men, I was the youngest one in the room, just asking these very open and vulnerable questions to these gentlemen. And a lot of times their wife would be right there. And it put in a very awkward situation. And I was just. It was just very, very intense. But I definitely at that time started feeling a true compassion for those men. I just felt so bad for them. And no matter what they went through, I just felt so bad for them. And just the experience that they were going through, I just. That's just answering your question, John. I really just. That's just was a starting point of understanding that side of the church that I never knew it really existed.
John Dehlin [02:12:38] And how was the decision made whether or not to excommunicate?
Jared Johnson [02:12:42] Yeah, so basically it's split up between. Because there's 12. Basically half the room represents the church. The other half of the room represents the individual, has the best interest of the church, has the best interest of the individual. And after we, the. The gentleman or whoever it was was kind of put on the spot and he shared, we would invite him to leave. We would talk as a high council, as a presidency, and then the presidency would then take that information and go into rooms and they would pray about a decision. They then come back, we'd have another further discussion, invite them back in, and then they would disclose kind of what his future was going to be like.
John Dehlin [02:13:22] And if you had to guess the percentage of excommunication versus disfellowship versus no action, what would you guess the percentage breakdown was?
Jared Johnson [02:13:32] I don't remember because we went through a lot during that time, but there were definitely a lot of excommunications. I remember a lot of probation. And I thought that was one thing I thought was odd was it was so situational. Like some people would only get disfellowed, have disfellowship for 12 months for the exact same thing. Other people would have 15 months and they would say, well, because of his, he was less experienced in the church. So like, let's say there would be
John Dehlin [02:14:00] more lenient if he was experienced.
Jared Johnson [02:14:02] Correct. So let's say it was somebody that had a leadership calling or had more experience in the church, we would be more strict with them versus somebody that was less experienced because they didn't know any better type of thing.
John Dehlin [02:14:14] Was that to protect the reputation of the church? Like if someone was well known in the church and it was well known that they did something wrong. My memory is, as I read the general handbook of instructions is the more public the infidelity is, and if they've served a mission and the higher the level in the leadership, potentially the more likely excommunication should be the outcome. Does that sound right or not?
Jared Johnson [02:14:46] Yeah, I mean, just because they're set to a higher expectation, just like those covenants we make in the temple. Right. If you are covenanting in the temple that day with God, then you are set to a higher standard and a higher expectation. Right. And that obviously bled over to those type of situations.
John Dehlin [02:15:04] Do you remember excommunicating any Women and what that was like.
Jared Johnson [02:15:07] I do, yeah, I do remember excommunicate. There was some situations where there are some women that there was an excommunication. Yeah, I mean, it's just very. You just for me at least.
John Dehlin [02:15:20] So as a woman surrounded by 15 men.
Jared Johnson [02:15:23] Correct.
John Dehlin [02:15:23] Probing her and asking her details about her sexual experiences. Is that. Am I exaggerating?
Jared Johnson [02:15:30] Right. Because it's a very private, you know, you're. Nobody else is in the room, nobody else talks about it. Nobody else is allowed in or out during that time. Some of these went on for a couple hours. I remember one being over six hours and everywhere in between. But for me, it was just very hard to see people go through that. And again, being on that side, I was like, man, I never want to go through that. I just. Going back to how I was raised and everything like that. I'm like, I never want to have to go through that experience because of just the shame. You can just feel how much shame they felt and just how much embarrassment they felt. And again, being surrounded with a bunch of men, especially the women. There were some awkward, very awkward situations that I felt especially.
John Dehlin [02:16:22] So somehow disciplinary councils have gotten the nickname court of love. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. You never heard of that?
Jared Johnson [02:16:30] No, but that's definitely. I mean, that's probably what they intend it to be. That's the intention. But it's definitely.
John Dehlin [02:16:38] How would you characterize those councils?
Jared Johnson [02:16:43] Like a court of law, not a court of love. I mean, it really is. I mean, they're being judged by their actions and, you know, and it's just these are men that have been. Have no experience with like psychology and being psychologists and marriage counselors and stuff. None of us have been trained.
John Dehlin [02:17:07] No mental health training.
Jared Johnson [02:17:08] No mental health training. No. You know, when I was there, I don't anybody. We're just typical blue collar people, you know, construction workers and stuff like that. And here we are judging this individual based off of her, you know, decisions she's made. But in your opinion, giving our opinions about certain things. But none of us had had professional training around therapy or counseling or professional counselors or anything like that. But you are set apart to be able to judge certain people in certain ways that the church has designated you to be in that position.
John Dehlin [02:17:43] So overall, did you look forward to those disciplinary councils? Did you hate them? How did you feel about them?
Jared Johnson [02:17:48] I absolutely hated them.
Camille Johnson [02:17:51] And I hated them too. I would know when he was doing a disciplinary or excommunication or whatever disciplinary counsel because it would affect him for days. And luckily, he did have his dad to be able to talk to about it. Like, you know, concerns or things that were affecting him. But it affected our family as well. And I remember always thinking, like, sin is so horrible. Like, look how it affects even me. Like, when someone sins and they have to go confess and then be part of this excommunication, and it affects my husband, and then it affects me. Like, I mean, that was my thinking. Right. But it was reality, too, because it really did impact our family and is part of it.
Margi Dehlin [02:18:41] So did you. Were you able to talk about it between you?
Camille Johnson [02:18:44] So.
Margi Dehlin [02:18:44] And that's part of it. Right. Is as you get in the higher callings, you're exposed to these more and more instances where there's a sense of, like, well, you could say confidentiality or secrecy that you actually can't share with your partner. Right.
Camille Johnson [02:19:06] With your wife. It definitely put strain. A strain and a wedge and just that disconnect. Because I could see in him that he was struggling or, like, hurting, and he couldn't tell me why.
Margi Dehlin [02:19:21] Yes. So it puts you in this position of kind of bearing it alone. You're a bit isolated now. You could talk to your dad. Do you want to explain why you could talk to your dad about it? Just so.
Jared Johnson [02:19:35] Yeah, because he was obviously a part of those conversations. He was in those rooms. He knew what was going on. And so we had some open conversations about it. And I'd expressed some things to him about why certain things happen a certain way. And again, I was very uneducated about the whole process. And so we would talk about it and I would share how much it impacted me, emotionally especially. And, you know, I'm not saying we didn't have spiritual experiences, because at the time, I thought I was having spiritual experiences, but it was more just the. I just couldn't believe how much emotionally draining it was for me when I'd go through those experiences. But, yeah, we were able to have those open conversations because he was. He was a part of him as well.
John Dehlin [02:20:17] Something that people don't think about, and especially never. Mormons would know this, but when you excommunicate someone, you're not just kicking them out of God's true church. You're invalidating their baptism. You're also invalidating their temple marriage, and you're breaking up their eternal family. So Mormons believe that you can only go to the celestial kingdom with all your family if you get sealed in the temple and are worthy. And as soon as you excommunicate somebody, it means they're no longer going to be with their wife in heaven, the heaven they want to go to. They're no longer going to be with their children in the heaven they want to go to. So it's breaking up an entire family. Kind of like what your family might have experienced in some ways. Right.
Margi Dehlin [02:21:00] And it's honestly too, having children be out of control in their situation and their dreams for an eternal family, because it's their parents that are making the decisions oftentimes.
Jared Johnson [02:21:15] And it was hard for me because a lot of these individuals I knew just being in the stake, you just know these individuals. But that was one of the things I also. I don't know if I was more confused or questioned is like, why would you go through that? We want them to go to the temple. We want them to be able to partake of the sacrament. We want them to do those things. And I actually will talk about that more when I got called to be bishop, but I was like, why don't we want them there? Why are we restraining them from being able to go to the temple? And that's where, if that's where the wanna be and that's where they wanna
Margi Dehlin [02:21:49] be, and if they need support, like to help them actually improve or, you know, feel closer to, you know, Heavenly Father, Jesus, that in that moment you'd be like, no, denied. Correct.
Camille Johnson [02:22:06] It's like hitting. Making them hit rock bottom even more
Jared Johnson [02:22:10] than they already are.
Margi Dehlin [02:22:11] Yeah, yeah,
John Dehlin [02:22:14] yeah. Okay. So you hated doing those. When somebody says, communicated, what are the rules? What are they not allowed to do? How does it affect them other than ruining their eternal life with their families? What does it mean in terms of the church and their membership and when they're excommunicated? Yeah.
Jared Johnson [02:22:32] So they're not allowed to participate in any type of calling in the church. They're not allowed to speak publicly in church. They're not allowed to say prayers publicly in church. They're not allowed to partake of the
John Dehlin [02:22:46] sacrament, which is the bread and water that gets passed.
Jared Johnson [02:22:53] Obviously, they're not allowed to attend the temple. Their temple recommend is taken away.
Camille Johnson [02:22:57] Did they have take off their garments as well?
Jared Johnson [02:22:59] They have to remove their garments? Yeah, I think that's pretty much. Pretty much it that I can think of. I mean, they're basically restricted from everything. They can attend church. And they actually are encouraged. And that's the other thing too. I remember you have to give them an action plan. I remember that was the big thing. Like, here's your action plan that you need to do afterwards. You need to attend church regular. You need to still do, if you're a bishop, invite you to participate in home teaching. So it wasn't technically a calling. You can do your home teaching, you can do certain things. But there were so many restrictions that they couldn't do. The only thing they could do was show up to church. And they were, like, forced. Not forced, but they were highly, highly encouraged to still go to church and be in a room of everybody who was allowed to do those things. But you are not allowed to do those things, Right?
Margi Dehlin [02:23:48] Yes. It's the repeated experience of being denied. Yeah, yeah. In front of people.
Jared Johnson [02:23:53] Correct. I was like, man, that's a lot of shame that we're putting on that person. Like, we want you to be there in front of everybody. And everybody kind of sees that over time. Like, everybody knows that, but sometimes people don't know.
John Dehlin [02:24:07] And they'll be like, hey, Brother Smith, do you want to say the opening prayer? Right. And Brother Smith will have to say, I can't. Which then in the minds of members,
Camille Johnson [02:24:16] means what, that they've done something horrible.
Jared Johnson [02:24:19] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:24:19] And it also transforms the experience of going to church into an incredibly stressful and anxious experience because you're afraid someone's going to ask you to say the prayer and you're going to have to say no, or you're thinking about taking. Not being able to take the sacrament and who will say or. Right. All of these things that would kind of call you out. So it also discourages attendance. Really?
Jared Johnson [02:24:48] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [02:24:48] Well.
Jared Johnson [02:24:48] And I would say out of all of them, now that you're, you know, a lot of it's kind of coming back to me now is majority of the people that were excommunicated never came back. Yeah, they never came back.
Margi Dehlin [02:24:58] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [02:24:59] The ones that were on, like, a soft probation, whatever you want to call it, I would say the majority of those actually end up leaving. And what was interesting, too, a lot of the men that came in, they actually didn't want to be there. It was more of their wives that were active in church, and they were saying, if you want to make this work, you have to do this.
Margi Dehlin [02:25:17] Got it.
Jared Johnson [02:25:18] That was the majority of the men that we met with was in that type of situation, but they weren't there because they were wanted to be there. Like, they came and did. It was more their.
Margi Dehlin [02:25:26] Save their marriage, save their marriage, save their family. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:25:29] So devil's advocate, like, infill is bad, cheating is bad, adultery is bad. So this is a support system to families to disincentivize people from cheating and then also getting them to stop and getting them to clean up their act. Like, why, you know, is there a way that we can see this as something that's actually positive or not?
Camille Johnson [02:25:56] I mean, you've said that you're like, I'm never going to cheat on you. That would be horrible to go through a disciplinary.
Jared Johnson [02:26:01] Yeah, the other thing. Yeah, another thing they were forced to
Camille Johnson [02:26:06] do or you just really love me
Jared Johnson [02:26:08] and you would never was they were the 12 step program. This is when the 12 step program come out as well. And that was a huge thing. You have to go through this 12 step program.
John Dehlin [02:26:17] And this is the addiction recovery. Addiction recovery Arp. If any of you guys want to have a mind blowing experience, go to, go to Google Maps, type in addiction and recovery program Utah and you will see thousands and thousands of dots, not just all over Utah, but all over the United States of these Mormon established sexual addiction programs for pornography masturbators and Mormon masturbators and pornography viewers. Do it sometime. It'll blow your mind. Right. So they were required.
Jared Johnson [02:26:52] Yeah. That was part of their action plan, was attend church regularly and do this 12 step program. That was pretty much anything. That was the only thing they really could do. And they would be assigned to high counselors to meet with them once a month as an additional home teacher. And you know, it was not, I would say it was more of a negative experience than a positive experience for individuals.
John Dehlin [02:27:15] Really?
Jared Johnson [02:27:16] 100%.
John Dehlin [02:27:17] Even though we all agree cheating is bad, adultery is bad, and this is just the church trying to get people to not do that, give them consequences. You still say it was not a
Jared Johnson [02:27:27] healthy thing majority of the time.
John Dehlin [02:27:30] Because what, they would never come back to church.
Jared Johnson [02:27:32] They just want to come back to church through shame or guilt or whatever it was. Or they just got so immune to not attending church. They just said, why do I even need this in my life? I can go and, you know, go a different direction and I can work it out with my marriage or sometimes the marriage would not end up working out. But yeah, from my perspective, I did not see that as a positive experience for the individuals at the end of the table.
John Dehlin [02:27:55] Were there ever people excommunicated for like child abuse or spousal abuse or financial fraud that you experienced?
Jared Johnson [02:28:04] Not that I experienced. No, not that.
John Dehlin [02:28:06] And I can just guarantee you it's not that those things weren't occurring in your stake. So is that interesting at all? That infidelity gets excommunication? Correct. But child abuse and financial fraud or even Spouse abuse. Never. Never came across your desk, so to speak.
Jared Johnson [02:28:23] Yeah. And I knew it was happening. Well, when I became bishop, I knew it was happening, and I was surprised of how much it was happening because they had a big emphasis on that because they had a lawsuit with somebody that. In Mesa, Arizona, from an individual that was accused of, and nobody reported it. So we actually had a, A, A training on this from an area authority. And so every little issue that even. Every time you met with the youth or anything like that, if they brought up any type of child abuse or anything like that, you had to report it because they didn't want to have anything.
John Dehlin [02:28:52] Not to the police, no.
Jared Johnson [02:28:54] You had a call. There was a hotline. You called to Kurt mcconi.
John Dehlin [02:28:57] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [02:28:57] You called and there was a hotline, and they. I Talked to Kurt McConkey more when I was bishop than I ever wanted to. But. Yeah, when I was on high council. No, that never got brought up. We never had excommunications, as far as what I remember, or disfellowships or probation based off of those, but 90% of them was fidelity or, you know, infidelity or adultery type of situations. But when I was bishop, yeah, there was a lot of issues with child abuse and stuff like that.
John Dehlin [02:29:29] Yeah. I just think, Take note, the Mormon Church doesn't punish child. Child abusers, child molesters, for whatever reason. And that's. This is important evidence of that. Did you ever sit the disciplinary council for apostasy? Just curious.
Jared Johnson [02:29:44] No.
John Dehlin [02:29:45] Okay.
Jared Johnson [02:29:45] No, I.
John Dehlin [02:29:46] That's what I was excommunicated for. Just for the record.
Camille Johnson [02:29:51] No, it's not funny. It's just.
Jared Johnson [02:29:53] Yeah, I'm sorry.
John Dehlin [02:29:54] No, it's fine.
Jared Johnson [02:29:55] Because I know you. I, I. Yeah, I have compassion for. I know you went through. And I'm sorry you had to go through that.
John Dehlin [02:30:02] Oh, no. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Okay. All right. So you're on the stake High Council. Your dad's the stake president. Were you serving, you know, in, in church? You're having little kids.
Margi Dehlin [02:30:15] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [02:30:16] I don't remember the timeline on that. What year was it? Or were you.
Jared Johnson [02:30:19] You were in the primary presidency.
Camille Johnson [02:30:20] Oh, that's right. I was. Primary presidency at the time.
Margi Dehlin [02:30:23] And how many children?
Camille Johnson [02:30:25] I had two, and then I was pregnant with my.
Margi Dehlin [02:30:27] Okay, so you were pregnant while you
Camille Johnson [02:30:29] were in the primary presidency.
John Dehlin [02:30:31] What was it like to have him traveling to other wards on Sunday and gone at disciplinary councils? And was he gone a lot?
Camille Johnson [02:30:37] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:30:37] And what was that like for you?
Camille Johnson [02:30:40] I just, it was just part of what we did. Like, I Just made it work. And. But he, he was gone all Sunday. Most Sundays. Yeah. But. And then I was busy doing the primary stuff.
Margi Dehlin [02:30:54] Right.
Camille Johnson [02:30:54] So. And that's when we did. Sharing time. It was the three hour church. So it was, it was a lot.
Margi Dehlin [02:31:00] It was an hour.
Camille Johnson [02:31:01] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:31:01] Of.
Camille Johnson [02:31:03] It was two hours.
Margi Dehlin [02:31:04] It was two hours of primary.
Jared Johnson [02:31:05] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:31:06] So that's a lot.
Camille Johnson [02:31:07] Yeah, yeah. That you're. It was a lot. So.
John Dehlin [02:31:11] But you just, your husband being gone, like he had his job, that was probably super stressful. And then on the weekends he's doing a lot of church stuff. And for you, you're just like, that's well.
Camille Johnson [02:31:25] And I felt like I was doing all the church things too. You know, meetings and then all day on Sunday. Primary stuff.
Margi Dehlin [02:31:35] That's right.
John Dehlin [02:31:36] And there's one frame of that where it's awesome. We're at the win it, we're leading
Camille Johnson [02:31:40] and, and we were both doing good things and we were committed. Yeah, we were very committed. And I don't ever really remember complaining about it. It was just like, wow, we're doing good.
Margi Dehlin [02:31:54] Did it ever overlap with, say, your postpartum depression, where that might hit and you're in a high demand calling, you're in a presidency. And how would you navigate that with again, him being gone, less available maybe to step in support?
Camille Johnson [02:32:14] So with postpartum depression, my first two babies were 18 months apart, and after that second one, I was so depressed, so it was so hard. And we weren't really doing like a lot of church calling stuff back then. And so we put off having more, more kids because of the state of mind that I was in. I was just like, I don't know if I can, I can do this. And people would ask, like, are you gonna have more kids? When are you gonna have your other kid? You gotta have more kids, you know,
Jared Johnson [02:32:49] and this is a five year gap in between.
Camille Johnson [02:32:51] Yeah. By the time, you know, I was feeling better and we were doing, you know, all these things, we decided we were like, okay, let's, let's have one more. And so when I was in the primary presidency and, and pregnant, I was, I was concerned about, you know, the after postpartum. But how did that play out? It was okay. I had been on an antidepressant and that had really helped me and I had gotten into running. And so that was kind of like my. In between everything. Like, I had my kind of my therapy where I can clear my mind and, and do things like that, but I don't at that time, after my third I Didn't feel as intense as. Like the time before, but I do feel like medication really did help me in that situation.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:44] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [02:33:45] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:46] Okay. So it felt full. What I'm hearing is it was a full life, an effortful life. And also. Which I so get that it's so normalized that it's just the water you're swimming in. You don't know anything different. So it's kind of like, yeah, this is what you do.
Camille Johnson [02:34:05] Yeah, yeah. And I feel like we got praised for it. I mean, you feel like you're amazing. Like, yeah, I'm busy. I'm doing this and this and this. And, you know, it's kind of that, like, not prideful, but like social dopamine.
Margi Dehlin [02:34:21] Yeah, Social dopamine and high visibility in the wardrobe.
Camille Johnson [02:34:26] Yeah. So that was. So, let's see. So that was. I was in the primary presidency. And then when did you get called to bishopric?
Jared Johnson [02:34:41] Are you saying because you were on the.
Camille Johnson [02:34:42] Because then I was in young women's stake. No, ward. I don't know. It's such a blur. Like, we were just like. And. And then I think you even had a moment where you were in Young Men.
Jared Johnson [02:34:53] I got called back to be gospel
Camille Johnson [02:34:54] doctor and then gospel doctrine, and then bishopric, and then, you know, and then I get called to be in the stake Young woman's. And that's. And he was in the bishopric.
Jared Johnson [02:35:04] That's when I got. We got called. She was in the stakewoman was when I got called to be in the bishopric.
Camille Johnson [02:35:07] Yeah, that's right.
Margi Dehlin [02:35:08] Wow.
Camille Johnson [02:35:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:35:09] And what's it like with parents and in laws and siblings when somebody gets called into a bishopric or gets made bishop? What does that mean in Utah culture? How is it talked about? What does it mean?
Camille Johnson [02:35:25] Praise.
Jared Johnson [02:35:25] Yeah. It's like, wow, he's bishop. Right. Because I was. When I got called in bishopric, I was like, 36, 37. And then I got called to be bishop when I was 38, 39. And so, yeah, it's definitely. I felt, wow, this is it. Like, we've made it, you know, we've gone the way we worked ourselves up the. Work my way up to the. The chain. That's what, you know, I was told I was supposed to do. And that's, you know, we've made it now. And. And that wasn't anything that, like, I applied for. I wouldn't say that. But it's like, God, I'm doing the things that God wants me to do. Right. And that's. And. But we were like, wow, she's still they even talk. I remember when they called me, but I remember in the meeting, they said, well, do you want to stay in the primary presidency? And we're like, oh, yeah, you know, you can stay or not. The primary presidency. Young Women's Stake presidency, when I was in the bishopric. So we're like, yeah, we can do it.
John Dehlin [02:36:16] We're.
Jared Johnson [02:36:16] Yeah, we're the power couple. Like, you're the power. We can make it work.
Camille Johnson [02:36:19] No, we do it. We just do it. And
John Dehlin [02:36:23] so did y'. All. Did y' all have friends that, you know, active, faithful Mormon friends that you hung out with and did stuff with? You know, it's like, how. How connected was your social life to your ward and stake relationships and your. In your neighborhood?
The Mormon Power Couple Social World
Camille Johnson [02:36:39] Very, very connected.
John Dehlin [02:36:40] Talk about what that's like.
Camille Johnson [02:36:42] We had a really, really awesome group of friends. About five couples.
Jared Johnson [02:36:46] Yeah, five or six.
Camille Johnson [02:36:47] And it was funny because, like, they were our friends that we, like, connected with and loved being with and everything. But it was also viewed as cliquey, I think, from other people, which was hard because it's like, but why can't I have my friends and, like, be okay with that, if that makes sense? Like, as far as, like, I try to include everybody or whatever, but, like, these are. These are my close friends that I want to be with, so. But, yeah, I think we had kind of a reputation of maybe being clicky. Not on purpose.
John Dehlin [02:37:20] And y' all would do. How would y' all hang out normally? And there would be vacations.
Jared Johnson [02:37:25] Yeah, we would travel together. We did everything together. We would do. We went all over. Belize, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, Dominican, Dominican Republic, Mexico, a lot.
John Dehlin [02:37:34] With, like, four other Mormon couples from your ward or stake?
Jared Johnson [02:37:37] Yep, from all. From our war, pretty much. And like I said, we were very close. We would do all the ward parties. We were. We did everything together. And date night?
Camille Johnson [02:37:48] Temple night?
Jared Johnson [02:37:48] Yeah, we did temple night every month.
John Dehlin [02:37:50] And so five Mormon couples would go to the temple together.
Jared Johnson [02:37:54] Timpanongos Temple. And we'd go to dinner and.
Camille Johnson [02:37:57] Yep.
Jared Johnson [02:37:58] This is before the Saratoga Springs Temple, but, yeah, we would go to the Timpanogos Temple, and. And we did everything.
Margi Dehlin [02:38:04] Let me ask you this. You know, when you're in the group and you're having those relationships, are you finding yourselves deeply connected with them? Like, how did it feel to you? Were you feeling very much. Like, a lot of what we talk about is more surface or shallow or, you know, a lot of church talk, let's say. Or did you feel like you actually also had deep connection where you're Talking about things that are more vulnerable or parenting or things that have more depth and meaning. How would you talk about, you know, what you experienced at that time with those relationships?
Jared Johnson [02:38:52] Do you want me to go ahead? Okay. So at the time, we thought these were deep relationships, right? We thought they were super deep. We thought, man, these are the best friends and couples anybody could ask for. This is like perfect.
Camille Johnson [02:39:04] Like friends forever.
Jared Johnson [02:39:05] Friends forever. And it kind of helped to leave some of the stress that we were feeling and the busyness that we felt because we had these escapes where we'd go to the temple and we'd go on vacation and stuff like that together. So at the time, yeah, we definitely thought they were deep. But when we get to kind of fast forward in the story, we'll talk about how they weren't. They were very surface level and they were not as deep as we thought they were.
Camille Johnson [02:39:29] And maybe that's like from your perspective as, as a guy. Like, I think the girls were a little bit closer as far as, like, we would talk more, you know, Marco Polo's boxer type things and kind of had more of that intimate conversations.
John Dehlin [02:39:46] How would you support each other as women?
Camille Johnson [02:39:49] Oh, my gosh. We would help with each other's kids. We would make meals for each other. We would be there for each other. Like hard days we worked out together.
Margi Dehlin [02:40:02] Wow.
Camille Johnson [02:40:03] Like, it was. Yeah, we got into a couple of the girls, got into the running ultra racing with me and stuff like that. So it was a lot, a lot of time, a lot of experiences together.
Margi Dehlin [02:40:17] So it's so interesting in this time of life. So you have, you know, three young kids, you have a husband who is in a high demand calling and, you know, away a bit. And you have a high, you have high demand callings and then you're like. And how about some ultra running? Yeah, I feel like now would be the perfect time to maybe run 50 miles.
Camille Johnson [02:40:41] Yeah, it was.
John Dehlin [02:40:43] Did you run with these other women?
Camille Johnson [02:40:45] Yeah, a couple of them. Yeah. Yeah. So another challenge. Another challenge and something really.
Margi Dehlin [02:40:54] It sounds like for you, maybe it wasn't conscious, but doing something for yourself, but also connecting with friends.
Camille Johnson [02:41:02] Yeah, for sure. Like having that friend time. And it ended up being a lot. I was gone a lot actually. And this is kind of later. As you know, our callings changed and everything and our kids were getting older and maybe I was running away from something or feelings because I would go run for hours and hours in the
Margi Dehlin [02:41:28] mountains and a little coping in there.
Jared Johnson [02:41:31] And at the moment we didn't realize how much it was Impacting our family because we thought we were doing everything we should be doing. But we started to realize later on, looking back, how much it did impact our relationship with our kids, how much of time we were spending away from
Camille Johnson [02:41:46] our kids and with each other as well, because we had kind of grown apart. Like, you're doing all of this. I'm doing all of this. Our kids are great. They can take care of themselves. I don't know. They were babysitting themselves at nine. Like, age nine. We were just like. It's just. It works. Like, we can do it. And I think we both got really independent, which I always, like, want. I wanted that. Like, I always hated the. Like, when you get married, you become one. And it always bothered me because I was like, but we're so, like, we have our things, and I don't want to lose that. And so I felt like we were really good about, like, letting each other, not even letting. Like, I don't even think we would ever really, like, ask, like, hey, can I go run? Or can I go golfing? Or, you know, it was more like, hey, I'm gonna go do this. Okay, well, I'm doing this. And it. It started being so frequent that we just weren't even, like, doing anything together anymore.
Margi Dehlin [02:42:42] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:42:42] When you were on dates, you were on couples dates and trips.
Camille Johnson [02:42:46] It was a couple trips.
Jared Johnson [02:42:46] It was never the two of us.
Margi Dehlin [02:42:48] So, like, intimacy between you two, Emotional intimacy or really connecting, Taking time to connect and build. Yeah, there's no time for that.
Camille Johnson [02:42:57] There was no time. Yeah. And we just were like, it's just time of life. This is what we do. Right.
Jared Johnson [02:43:03] This is what we're told.
Camille Johnson [02:43:04] Yeah. Like, we're doing all these good things, and it's good.
Margi Dehlin [02:43:07] That's right.
John Dehlin [02:43:08] Do you think either of you were starved for emotional intimacy with each other, or did you just not really need it?
Camille Johnson [02:43:14] I felt like I was getting, like, what I needed from my friends. Like, my.
John Dehlin [02:43:18] From your female friends.
Camille Johnson [02:43:19] Yeah, from just, like, the social aspect. I don't know. I think maybe, like, down the road,
Jared Johnson [02:43:26] you've probably felt once again, when you're going through that at the moment, you don't realize it, but now when you're kind of half time to reflect on what went on during that time, it's like, wow. We were kind of drawing apart from each other. We were looking for ways for our outs and looking for ways that we could fill our buckets in. That wasn't our connection between each other. We did different things. Like, I'd go golfing or I'd go out and do other things, and she did her thing. And so, yeah, when you're in the moment, you don't really realize it, but it's like, wow, we missed out on so much. And I wouldn't say it caused, like, a. Like a division, but we were definitely starting to be more independent from each
Camille Johnson [02:44:08] other than speaking of, like, filling your bucket. Like, you know, everything that you need to be happy and successful and everything. I was willing to find that from my friends or from running or from doing hair clients or whatever, because I knew, like, Jared wasn't able to fill that part. So I feel like we were, like, fulfilled.
Margi Dehlin [02:44:34] Yeah. You were almost outsourcing, right?
Camille Johnson [02:44:36] Exactly.
Margi Dehlin [02:44:37] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [02:44:37] And it became so normal that it was just like, oh, well, you can't really give me that time. And so I'm gonna go be with my friend.
Margi Dehlin [02:44:44] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [02:44:45] So.
Margi Dehlin [02:44:46] Got it.
Camille Johnson [02:44:47] Yep.
Keeping Up Appearances in Utah County
John Dehlin [02:44:49] What about. So there's this idea of keeping up with the Joneses, and I can think of a couple ways. One is material possessions. Already you guys are smiling. I'm seeing you smiling as I say
Camille Johnson [02:45:01] that because it was keeping up with the Johnson. Yeah. Well, was something we had heard.
John Dehlin [02:45:06] Okay. Oh, Johnson.
Camille Johnson [02:45:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:45:09] Oh,
Margi Dehlin [02:45:13] like you were the Joneses. Oh, you were used. Oh.
Camille Johnson [02:45:16] So.
John Dehlin [02:45:17] Oh, wow. Okay, so I want to hear more
Jared Johnson [02:45:18] about that phrase because there was a kind of a, you know, elephant in the room type of phrase that went around in our ward and stakey and, you know, keeping up with the Johnson, so.
John Dehlin [02:45:30] Meaning you guys.
Jared Johnson [02:45:31] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:45:31] And because you were. You apparently were doing it all and had it all. Is that right?
Jared Johnson [02:45:36] And my parents and my dad and.
Camille Johnson [02:45:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:45:39] Oh, because it was kind of starting to become a. Like a legacy family in the state. Right.
Jared Johnson [02:45:43] 100.
Camille Johnson [02:45:44] Apparently it was called the Johnson vibe.
Jared Johnson [02:45:46] The Johnson vibe. It was called.
Margi Dehlin [02:45:47] Oh, wow.
Camille Johnson [02:45:48] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:45:49] So it was a thing.
Camille Johnson [02:45:50] Yeah. Yeah.
Jared Johnson [02:45:50] Because you remember, my brother in law was still bishop during this time as well, for our war got split, and he was. That's when I got called in the bishopric. He was still the bishop of that other ward, and he was an amazing bishop. Amazing guy.
Camille Johnson [02:46:02] Oh, yeah.
Jared Johnson [02:46:03] But he. Yeah, there was definitely a Johnson vibe.
John Dehlin [02:46:06] Yeah. Growing up in Houston, in Katy, Texas, like, there's this prince family where the patriarch of the family was the stake president, and, like, four of the sons were bishops, and we were all just like, oh, the princes are the elite. And it never really occurred to me, oh, wait a minute. It's the dad calling his sons to be bishop, basically.
Camille Johnson [02:46:27] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:46:27] I mean, maybe it was both. Right. It could be both.
Margi Dehlin [02:46:29] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [02:46:30] And I want to touch on that really quick while we're at that. Like Jared said, our brother in law is the most kind, most spiritual, most willing and really did fit that part of being bishop. And so I always want to be careful with like, just because he was the son in law of the stake president or whatever. And as well as Jared. And I think Jared has such great attributes of leadership and spirituality and he. He really was called because of who he. He is individually.
Margi Dehlin [02:47:17] So kind of privilege of connection.
Camille Johnson [02:47:19] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:47:19] And who he is.
Camille Johnson [02:47:20] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:47:21] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [02:47:23] From my perspective.
Margi Dehlin [02:47:25] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:47:27] Okay, so back to this idea of keeping up with the Joneses. So there's one domain that I think is quite. I've seen a lot of it in Utah. It's boats, it's Jet skis. It's probably Teslas and nice cars, nice houses. That's one. And then there's probably appearance, you know, thin, attractive, Mormon beauty standards, whatever. There's probably money and job prestige and church callings. What are the domains of keeping up with the Joneses in Utah or the Johnson? And what is that like? Is that fun? Is it a tread? Is it bad? Is it enjoyable? Is it like a game? What was it like? You go first.
Camille Johnson [02:48:11] I don't even think it's something that you consciously do on. On purpose. I think we were just like, loving life and just, you know, enjoying. I don't. I don't really know how to answer that as far as, like, you weren't
John Dehlin [02:48:26] aware of it and it wasn't causing you stress.
Camille Johnson [02:48:29] Not me.
John Dehlin [02:48:30] Beauty standards or materialistic standards. Money, prestige.
Jared Johnson [02:48:36] I mean, I wouldn't say. I wouldn't say necessarily caused distress, but yeah, I mean, we had the both aspects of that, you know, the material thing and we had the, you know, the RVs and the four wheelers and the ATV. We did all that because our friends did that. And, you know, we also had the appearance and making sure we looked the right part and we fit the right part to be able to be in those callings and things we should be doing. And again, going at the moment, you don't realize what you're actually doing, like, consciously. I don't think we made like we're making those decisions based off of, like, so people can look up to us and we're prestige. But again, when you finally have time to reflect, when you're not as busy since we stepped away, it's like, wow, I wonder. Those relationships and those things that we were feeling were not authentic. They were not genuine. They were not really who we were, we were just doing it because we wanted to fit the part.
Margi Dehlin [02:49:28] Yeah. It's almost like other types of conditioning. It's a social conditioning and you're not oftentimes aware of the conditioning at the time. You have to step out of that to kind of see that. But in the moment it just feels like, yeah, you're going with the current and the current feels like you. Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:49:46] Because on the one hand there's going to be couples and families in the warden stake who can't afford to go to Belize or Dominican Republic or, you know, they can't afford jet skis and nice houses and maybe they, they don't, you know, meet the Utah beauty standards or whatever. So there's going to be people left out.
Jared Johnson [02:50:07] Yeah, for sure.
John Dehlin [02:50:08] Who are lower, quote, quote, lower class. So that's one aspect. There's the pressure of being the Johnson. And then also I've noticed in Mormon culture this real emphasis on looking perfect. But then there's dark stuff going on behind the scenes and I see you guys nodding a little bit like I'm curious about that. Like, because a lot of those families that appeared to be the perfect Mormon families had physical abuse or sexual abuse or financial fraud or dark, dirty little secrets that you would never have known, they would have never told you they looked perfect and you would just have never known until someone ends up in jail or, you know, or divorced or whatever. So any of those things relevant to that scene, not necessarily your lives, but just that whole scene.
Jared Johnson [02:51:06] Want me to share some things or.
Camille Johnson [02:51:08] Well, let me.
John Dehlin [02:51:09] You both can both take a turn.
Camille Johnson [02:51:13] So I feel like everything came really natural to us. Like, it wasn't like we were trying to be better than anyone or like look better than anyone or I don't know, like I felt like it was really natural, but. But I have this like, guilt of having a good life. And so it was hard for me to do things and travel and have things knowing that other people don't. And so if that has any.
Jared Johnson [02:51:50] And your family too.
Camille Johnson [02:51:51] And my family, like, you know, like I have a great marriage, I have a great husband that, you know.
Margi Dehlin [02:51:56] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [02:51:57] Takes care of me and we're happy and everything. So I really did have this, like. And I still do. Like, and it's something I'm working on in therapy is like it's okay to have joy and happiness and, and live your life that way, you know?
Margi Dehlin [02:52:14] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [02:52:14] But I mean, we're not, I don't feel like we were ever like show offs or like, I mean, we post about our trips and stuff, but it wasn't like, we're better than everybody. Like, I don't know. I. Do you have anything to say?
Jared Johnson [02:52:29] Well, I was just gonna share, you know, because we were so busy and doing so many things. I. Again, now that I've had a step back from. From being able to reflect back, I know I was dealing with. I've had dealt with mental health issues and anxiety since I was in high school or even younger. Just that pressure. And you don't talk about. When we were younger, we didn't talk about mental health. It wasn't really a thing. And I didn't like talking about it because I'm a guy and I'm, you know. You know, I'm a male, and I didn't want to be open about that. And so deep down, you know, I knew I was dealing with severe anxiety, but I just didn't want to talk about it. I didn't want to open up about it. And I would cope with just staying busy and continue to do the busy things, so I didn't have to be open and. And vulnerable about that topic that was really going on inside of me.
Camille Johnson [02:53:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:53:20] And I'm remembering, I feel. But I don't know contextually, if this is the context, but this piece that you're kind of living right now, this highly productive.
Camille Johnson [02:53:32] Busy, busy, busy.
Margi Dehlin [02:53:35] Am I right in saying it did hit a wall of some sort for you as well? So it kind of. It worked, but likely wasn't sustainable.
Camille Johnson [02:53:44] Right. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:53:46] And is that during this time frame that you did hit something like that
Camille Johnson [02:53:50] or after it was kind of in the middle of it.
John Dehlin [02:53:54] Let's go through the bishop thing a little more systematically. So pause it. Maybe pre Bishop. Oh, yeah, Answer question.
Camille Johnson [02:54:01] Yeah, this is pre Bishop.
John Dehlin [02:54:02] Okay. Yeah, go ahead, keep going.
Camille Johnson [02:54:03] Okay, so. And I just want to back up one second, too, as far as, like, kind of our community and everything. We. We would throw parties for the. The neighborhood fourth of July. We would buy fireworks. And, like, we were just. We really wanted that, like, community in our neighborhood, and we strived to do that. And.
John Dehlin [02:54:26] Yeah, and you were wanting to be exclusionary, you're saying you were wanting to be.
Margi Dehlin [02:54:30] You were a gathering place.
Camille Johnson [02:54:31] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [02:54:33] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [02:54:33] Yeah. We loved together and I love to.
Jared Johnson [02:54:36] We love to host those types of things. And, you know. Yeah, it was.
Margi Dehlin [02:54:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:54:40] And to help with the youth.
Camille Johnson [02:54:42] Yes.
Jared Johnson [02:54:42] Oh, yeah.
Camille Johnson [02:54:43] Lots of youth.
Jared Johnson [02:54:44] Yeah, lots of youth.
Camille Johnson [02:54:45] Thanks. Yeah. And missionaries, like, when he was on the high council, like, the missionaries, like, loved being at our house. We Would let them come in and just eat whatever they wanted or like, you know, pre2020. But.
Margi Dehlin [02:54:59] Right.
Camille Johnson [02:55:00] Yeah. So, yeah, so we were doing a lot, and then it was about 2015, I was just like, I could not even function. I was exhausted. I had gained a ton of weight. I was severely depressed. And so obviously I went to the doctor to see what was going on, got my blood work, and found out that I had an autoimmune disease called Hashimoto's. And so that was kind of like, holy crap, like, you overdid it. You've kind of like, you know, run your body to the point of not being able to function. And so the next couple years, I actually went through a diet food sensitivity stuff, like, just really working on myself and like, my triggers of, like, you know, what's causing my cortisol to be, like, way high and everything. And. Yeah, so I learned how to manage my thyroid problems and kind of stress.
Margi Dehlin [02:56:12] Right.
Camille Johnson [02:56:13] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:56:13] And I think the reason why I think this is so interesting is that I think when we're in this place of conditioning, like, you're highly conditioned and you guys are doing all the things, your brain is on overdrive. It's, like, all in it. Your brain was all in it. You were like, oh, this is. It's just what we do. It's just what we. So you're always green lighting. More, more, more green light for your brain. And so. And that's a really. It can be anyway, a disconnected state. Right. A dissociative state. Right. Where it took your body, not your brain. Your body being, like, breaks.
Camille Johnson [02:56:53] Yep.
Margi Dehlin [02:56:53] Like, enough.
Camille Johnson [02:56:54] No more.
Margi Dehlin [02:56:55] Right.
Camille Johnson [02:56:55] Yep. So, yeah, that's exactly where I got. And. And I think maybe even during that time is kind of when I was like, oh, my gosh. Why? Why are we doing this? Why? Why do we do it?
Margi Dehlin [02:57:08] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [02:57:09] And even got back into the busyness after you got control of everything.
Camille Johnson [02:57:11] And I did. Yeah. Because I was like, I feel like, good.
Margi Dehlin [02:57:14] A little reprieve now I've learned the tools. So we're back in.
Camille Johnson [02:57:17] So I'm back in. That was like. That was when I started planning Trek and Girls Camp and, you know, all the big stakes stuff.
John Dehlin [02:57:26] Let me ask you. We recently interviewed Fran Grover. She's. She's. She's in law school. She's a mom. Her husband's an OBGYN in Utah county, and they've left the church. And he says that depression amongst Mormon women in Utah county is off the charts. Just. It's an epidemic. And he talked about it in very serious ways. Can you talk. Do you have any. What can you say from your perspective about why Mormon moms in Utah county have shocking levels of depression? I know we've been talking about your whole story, but if you had to distill that and summarize it, why would. Do you think that's true? And if so, why do you think that's true?
Camille Johnson [02:58:17] Yeah, I think it's true. I mean, obviously, I don't know, like, the chemical imbalance of, like, depression and, like, how that plays into it, but I definitely think that, like, the expectation of, like, you know, doing all the things, looking a certain way, you know, having your kids be successful, all these things, is very weighing on the women
John Dehlin [02:58:37] and husbands being gone a lot with their work and church service. Is that part of it? I don't want to see your answer,
Camille Johnson [02:58:44] but, yeah, no, that's exactly. You know, and so I think it's natural to just be down on yourself and sad or, like, feeling like you're not good enough. And so somehow I don't. Like I said, I'm not a doctor. I don't know, like, how that affects the actual chemicals in your brain, but I do feel like it causes a
Jared Johnson [02:59:10] lot of problems on self criticism as well. You know, they're their artist critics, these women trying to live a certain. Like, she was mentioned a certain way, a certain lifestyle, a certain expectation and fulfilling these callings. And wannabe Phil included is. And doing all these things. And, you know, when I was serving as bishop, I mean, dozens of women coming into my office and talking about, you know, depression and filling in that I'm like. And we'll talk about that a little bit later. But I, you know. But yeah, that's. I. I can see how that could be a huge problem, especially in Utah County.
John Dehlin [02:59:45] You saw high levels of depression amongst Mormon moms in Utah county, for sure. Okay. Okay, cool. Okay.
Camille Johnson [02:59:54] So.
John Dehlin [02:59:54] Well, I mean, I do see a lot of these autoimmune disorders break out amongst Mormon women. And there's this book, the Body Keeps the Score, where it just sounds like there's a cost to being the Johnson or the Joneses. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. To both of you. Like, I was gonna also say that there's a typical feminist critique, you know, that patriarchy's bad, that patriarchy oppresses women and it hurts women, and it does. But there's also a very common line as well, that patriarchy hurts men for sure. So you were in pain because you were exhausted. Having a lot of kids young and Maybe not the support you needed and all the perfectionist standards.
Margi Dehlin [03:00:43] Yep.
John Dehlin [03:00:43] But to be the sole breadwinner in the home and not just to provide for your wife and kids, but to provide boats and jet skis and. But then also not only to have a successful business, but also to be serving the community and bishops and sig presidents and that can take men out, right?
Jared Johnson [03:01:01] Yeah, 100%. And that's where, you know, like I said, we'll fast forward not the full thing, but where I had my breakdown. Right. So at the time I didn't realize what the toll has happened on me. And I know that my out was just continue to stay busy. It wasn't going and going to therapy. It wasn't, you know, taking time for myself. That's just not what you do, is you stay busy and you do all the things and.
Camille Johnson [03:01:26] And you'll be blessed.
Jared Johnson [03:01:27] And you'll be blessed. And that's what we're told. And that's what we're told in the temple. Sacrifice anything and everything, your resources and everything you have to the Church of the Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Law of consecration, even. Until. Even, Even your own lives, even old life. Necessary. Right. And I. And I did that, you know, and I just thought the more if I can continue to do this, we will be blessed and we will have that eternal family that, you know, we were almost living for the moment, but we were also living because we wanted to be blessed. I was scared that if I didn't do those things, I wouldn't be blessed. So it's also one of those things where, you know, going back to my early childhood, I was scared of making mistakes. Now at this point, I was scared of not being. Trying to be that perfect person because I was afraid of losing. Losing and not being blessed. And am I being blessed because of my job and getting paid well because of who I am and my talents and my abilities, or am I being blessed because God has blessed me because I'm doing everything right? I tore with that issue for the longest time, going back and forth with that.
Margi Dehlin [03:02:28] Yeah.
Jared Is Called as Bishop During COVID
John Dehlin [03:02:30] So should we jump to you being called as a bishop, or is there other. Other parts of your story that are really important before we get to the bishop part?
Jared Johnson [03:02:37] I think anything else leading up to it?
Camille Johnson [03:02:39] Is that what we want to show? Like.
John Dehlin [03:02:42] No, I'm just saying, is there more?
Camille Johnson [03:02:43] Oh, further.
Jared Johnson [03:02:44] That would be the next step.
Camille Johnson [03:02:45] Yeah, I think that's the next step. Special.
John Dehlin [03:02:47] Okay, let's do it.
Jared Johnson [03:02:50] Okay, let's go.
John Dehlin [03:02:51] Yeah. Okay. So what was it like getting Calls. And what was it like for both of you to get called? Who wants to tell the story?
Jared Johnson [03:02:58] Yeah. So it was, in a way, it was unexpected. This is beginning of 2020. So this is February, March of 2020. And the current bishop had only been bishop for about three and a half years, and he had had some health issues and stuff like that. But the moment we got called in, I kind of had that feeling that I was gonna get called.
John Dehlin [03:03:24] He's. By your dad?
Jared Johnson [03:03:24] Yeah, it was by my dad. Correct. And he was supposed to be getting released later on that year because he had hit. He was around on nine and a half, 10 years. And so we knew he was going to be released. And I just remember getting called into his office and he pulled out a letter from the First Presidency and said that they'd been given some thought and they thought it was going to be the best for interest of the ward for me to be called as the new bishop.
John Dehlin [03:03:50] How'd that feel?
Jared Johnson [03:03:52] I broke down. I was super. I was emotional. One. I was. Well, yeah, I was emotional just because I was excited. I had a lot of mixed emotions. I was nervous. I was like, oh, that's the next step. Right. I had done all the callings up to that point. That was the next box I was supposed to check. And. And that was kind of the pinnacle. Right. Of the, you know, the ward level callings. And that's why I was like, okay, well, we felt like that was the next box to check in our journey of moving up this ladder of Mormonism. Right. And it was a lot of mixed emotions, at least for me. I was excited and nervous and all those feelings. What do you want to share with that?
Camille Johnson [03:04:38] I had just run a 50 mile race the day before.
Margi Dehlin [03:04:42] Wow.
Camille Johnson [03:04:42] Remember that?
Jared Johnson [03:04:43] I don't, but because they.
Camille Johnson [03:04:45] They submitted your name in March or June and wasn't able to call it. Or. Sorry, March. And then it was June when they actually called. Called you. Yeah. So I had just run a 50 mile race and was pretty exhausted and just remember being like, okay, here we go. This is what we do.
John Dehlin [03:05:08] Now, wait a minute. Isn't that a. Weren't y' all in it to win it? And him becoming a bishop is part of winning it. So it was like a culmination of what you'd been working towards. Did you not experience it that way? A huge honor, like a trophy. Being bishop is like the ultimate Mormon trophy.
Camille Johnson [03:05:26] Honestly, I. For both people, I mean, I was excited, like, proud of Jared and thought, you know, of course, he's just the greatest and would be a great bishop or whatever. But I was kind of embarrassed in a way.
John Dehlin [03:05:42] Why?
Camille Johnson [03:05:44] Because of the Johnson vibe. And it was like, well, of course. Of course Jared would be the bishop. And so, yeah, I don't remember being like, oh, my gosh, like, I'm gonna be the bishop wife. Like, you know, but I. I was kind of like, okay, Right.
Life as Bishop and Bishop's Wife
Margi Dehlin [03:06:05] How did you feel about. I think being called as bishop is one thing. What did you feel around the identity of a bishop's wife?
Camille Johnson [03:06:16] I didn't love the idea of being bishop's wife. I just. I don't know. I didn't feel like I really fit that.
Margi Dehlin [03:06:26] Tell me your thoughts on that, like, what you. What your resistance is to it. Because what is it? What is a bishop's wife kind of. What's the picture of what that means as opposed to the bishop? Because I think it's very different.
Camille Johnson [03:06:39] It is very different. The bishop's wife is more, like, submissive and sweet and just loving to everybody and perfect. And perfect. Yeah. And I definitely didn't feel that way. I felt a little bit more edgy in a way, if that even makes sense. Like, I did have some close friends, like, and I felt like bishop wife's never really had, like, their group of friends. Like, they were just, like, there for everybody, you know? And so, I don't know. I think it made me nervous a little bit that I wouldn't be able to live up to that. Like, I don't really know.
Jared Johnson [03:07:26] Well, I know one thing that she was nervous about was because she had such a strong influence and such a strong group of friends, and her group of friends were very open with each other and talking. Now they couldn't talk to her because I was the bishop, and the bishop always knows everything that goes on the ward. And now they couldn't be open to her about certain things because of me being called as bishop.
Margi Dehlin [03:07:47] So maybe also anticipating if it could change some of your relationships that you valued at the time. Yeah, I see.
Camille Johnson [03:07:56] So.
John Dehlin [03:07:58] So you didn't experience it as some big honor as arriving, you know, not really.
Jared Johnson [03:08:04] I mean, deep down, I think we did. I mean, we think, like, wow, we made it. Yeah, like, yeah, like, everything I went through in our story, we've shared up this point. It's like, yeah, we made it, and we feel good about it. And I don't think we were, you know, outwardly going on social media and bragging about it. By all means. That's just not who we are on the top of personalities. But I think it was like a badge of honor that I was worthy enough. And I am the type of person that either it was nepotism or God or whoever it was that I was called to be bishop. Like, I was proud of that, and I think Camille was proud of that. And it was. Yeah, it was kind of a bad. It is. It's the church culture, right? It's a badge of honor that you were. You reached that rank of bishop and you were actually called and set apart as a bishop.
John Dehlin [03:08:52] Isn't it validating that, like. Yep. You've lived righteously up to this point because. And for both of you, not just for cause, the whole family has to be perceived as being together for the husband to be called his bishop. It really is a joint calling, even though. Is that right? Do you agree, Camille?
Camille Johnson [03:09:09] Yeah, 100%.
John Dehlin [03:09:11] Yeah. If a man appeared to have it together, but the wife didn't appear to have it together, he's not getting called as a bishop. Right.
Jared Johnson [03:09:18] And there was a kind of a. Even from the stake president prior to my dad, there was a kind of a phrase that went around, like, they found the best wives and they called their husband to be bishop. I don't know if that's a Utah thing or Utah county thing, but that was definitely a phrase that went around in our stake and stakes in general, that was always said. And whenever, like, when they're getting ready to call me as bishop in the sacrament meeting, like that particular day, you know, whoever was the one calling it, they would always make that comment is they find some of the best wives in the stake, and they call their husband to be bishop.
John Dehlin [03:09:55] Is there a little bit of that? Did you feel a little bit of that?
Margi Dehlin [03:09:59] Yeah. I think what's interesting when you're. When you're saying, you know, were you just.
Camille Johnson [03:10:05] Were you thrilled?
Margi Dehlin [03:10:06] This is the pinnacle moment. Like, you've reached this. But I also, like, remember church culture, though. And it's like anytime you reach anything, there's like, you're always hustling. It's like you've never arrived. You never rest. It's never like. And almost the higher you go, the stakes get higher. You have more to prove. So it's like you're only as good as the last thing you proved. So, you know, there's just always this impending stress. I feel like no matter what. Is that what you felt like? I think things can be many things. Right. Clearly. I mean, that's.
Jared Johnson [03:10:43] The expectation increases. Right. The standards increase. I'm not just the counselor anymore. I'm not on high I am the bishop of the ward, and we had to have a certain way and we looked a certain way. We had to fit that mold regardless if we wanted to or not. The expectation is what you fit the mold.
John Dehlin [03:11:01] So did y' all dress differently once you became bishop and bishop's wife?
Camille Johnson [03:11:06] Not really.
Jared Johnson [03:11:06] Not really. That wasn't kind of our thing. But
Camille Johnson [03:11:10] I mean, I still wore garments at the time, so.
Jared Johnson [03:11:14] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:11:14] Did you feel. Did you feel pressure for your children?
Camille Johnson [03:11:19] Yes, yes, yes.
Jared Johnson [03:11:21] They were just getting ready to hit their teenage years, so, like 14 and 12 right around that age. 15 and 12 right around there. Anyway, they're in their teenage years and we definitely. Because they didn't fit that mold either because my daughter's very independent. Our kids have been very independent. They're very active in the sports. And so they weren't regular church go. Not churchgoers, but like weekly goers to their weekly activities because they were so involved in other things. And even while I was in the bishopric, you know, there were a lot of their leaders that were saying, like, oh, your daughter, you know, Reagan, she, you know, she was the project. We're going to get her to go to these weekly activities. But she's doing all. Everything. A straight A student. Super. Doing all these things. I'm like, I wanted to be speak up and I wish, you know, obviously I regret not speaking up, but like, like, no, she's doing amazing things. Like, she doesn't necessarily have to go to the weekly activities and play with puppies and do some of these craft things. That doesn't interest her. I want her to follow her passions and. But yeah, we were definitely concerned about our kids.
Margi Dehlin [03:12:21] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [03:12:21] And the way they were viewed and the pressure of being the bishop's children. Because I felt that out when I was a youth.
Margi Dehlin [03:12:29] That's right. That would be something you would have some familiarity with.
Jared Johnson [03:12:32] Yeah, for sure.
Camille Johnson [03:12:33] And they were upset when we told them that Jared was going to be called to be bishop. Our son Kate actually cried.
Jared Johnson [03:12:40] Yeah. We took him out on our back porch and we were sitting there at 4 that day and we told them I was going to be called be bishop that day. And they're like, just started. They just started crying because they knew that I was going to be taken away, the time was gonna be taken away from them.
Margi Dehlin [03:12:53] Yes, that's right. So you'll be home even less. Yeah. Do you feel like they had a sense of maybe, you know, an identity they would have to, like, expectations for them, or do you feel like they. That was not something they were particularly connected to. Because they weren't let's just say all in. In the same way maybe that. What do you think about that for them?
Camille Johnson [03:13:18] No, I don't think it was like stress for them to like be any different. It was more a time, like a time loss. Yeah. That they were worried about because we had already been so busy, which is real.
Margi Dehlin [03:13:33] Can we just talk about that from a family perspective? If the church is all about families, how much it asks of members and how often parents are away from their children in the buy in of that as well. So. And they were vocal about that in the moment being able to say for sure. That's so interesting.
Jared Johnson [03:13:56] When I did finally have my breakdown, that was a big thing. If the churches I'm constantly preaching about families are forever and you know, family's the center of the plan and everything like that. And yet my, I'm not spending any time with my family because I, I'm a bishop and I'm doing. I'm so busy. That was one of several issues that I started having. Started feeling like a hypocrite.
Margi Dehlin [03:14:19] Yeah, I bet.
Jared Johnson [03:14:20] And that ultimately was part of the. My meltdown and let's get into that.
John Dehlin [03:14:25] So what year were you called?
Jared Johnson [03:14:26] I was called in 2020 and that was 2020, April of 2020.
John Dehlin [03:14:31] So four years.
Camille Johnson [03:14:32] As soon as they let us come back for sacrament meeting. Right.
Jared Johnson [03:14:35] Yeah. So while I was called, I was actually we were not allowed to go in sacrament and then. And yeah, I was called to be bishop basically when we were our first week when we were able to start
John Dehlin [03:14:45] going back and was there a honeymoon where you loved it or did it. Was it really.
Jared Johnson [03:14:50] Yeah, I mean I, you know, I was excited. Like you have when you're called to be bishop, you have certain expectations, you have certain things that you want to do. Like I'm going to be a bishop. This way you take some of the pros and cons with the previous bishop, what you liked and didn't like that he did. And like I'm going to be, I'm going to do these things and that you know. And so I was, I had a certain way I thought how I wanted to be bishop. But yes, you know, one of your first bishop. There was kind of that honeymoon phase where I was excited. I was excited to get everybody go back to church.
Camille Johnson [03:15:21] It was a weird time because we had been through Covid and not at church.
John Dehlin [03:15:27] Any idea if the church lost active membership because of COVID Oh yeah, 100 like any idea of like what percentage activity rates Dropped.
Jared Johnson [03:15:37] Well, I know just in our stake, I mean there was at least a 50 drop in active rate when we were kind of forced to come back. Not forced, but when we were encouraged to come back.
John Dehlin [03:15:46] That never re. That never rebounded or.
Camille Johnson [03:15:48] No, I think because they were videoing the sacrament as well. And so people would just stay home.
Jared Johnson [03:15:54] Yeah, they were. We were allowed to do a. Like alive.
John Dehlin [03:15:58] But I just mean. Yeah. Once those videos stopped, did activity levels return to where they were pre Covid or.
Jared Johnson [03:16:06] No, no, they never did. And I don't know percentage wise, off the top of my head because especially in that area because we grew so much during that time, there was a lot of growth, but percentage wise, I wouldn't know. But yeah, we. I definitely know there was a drop off because the church talked about a lot. Every time we had. Have a meeting with, with leadership, area presidency leadership, they would talk about getting people to go back to church. Don't share the live video stream unless people have a valid reason or only for the elderly or, you know, we need people in the sacrament room.
Camille Johnson [03:16:35] Yeah. So you get to decide who gets to stay home or not.
Jared Johnson [03:16:39] Don't share it with everybody.
John Dehlin [03:16:42] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [03:16:43] Yeah.
The Best and Hardest Parts of Being Bishop
John Dehlin [03:16:43] So what were some of the best and worst things about being bishop?
Jared Johnson [03:16:48] One of the things I did love was working with the youth. Because during this time, right before that, the last general conference before COVID is when they called the bishops to be the young men's president.
John Dehlin [03:16:59] Yeah. They eliminated the job of young men's president. Do you know why they. And gave it to the bishop on top of all their other responsibilities. Do you have any idea why they did that? Did they ever explain that to you?
Jared Johnson [03:17:09] I never got a clear explanation why. And I, I don't know why they would do that. To put more on the bishop's plate. Now they always talked about delegating and having the right, you know, having young men leaders, assistants. I don't know. I can't remember the exact term we call them, but yeah, they want us to delegate. But that was one of the things I was challenged with. Or just getting the right people because they always felt like, oh, he's the young men's president, I don't have to do anything. Right. Getting men to fulfill their callings. But that's in general. I do not know why they put that on there. I wish I did because I know it put a lot of stress on the bishops and pressure on the brush.
John Dehlin [03:17:50] So what did that mean for you as a bishop to be young men's president too? What did that mean you had to
Jared Johnson [03:17:55] do, well, step in the role of a young men's president, which is for
John Dehlin [03:18:00] those who don't know. What does that mean?
Jared Johnson [03:18:01] Yeah. So weekly activities camps, you know, you're over the priest, typically, your first counselor is over the teachers. Your second counselor is over the deacons. And so we had to make sure that they were, you know, we met with them more on a regular basis. It was just added on top of the.
Margi Dehlin [03:18:17] On top of who did the teaching on Sunday.
Jared Johnson [03:18:19] We did the teaching. I would teach every Sunday pretty much for the most part, even though they said, delegate that. But again, we know, you know, those callings always aren't fulfilled. And so.
John Dehlin [03:18:29] So you were preparing priest quorum lessons as a bishop. Yeah. Every week.
Camille Johnson [03:18:34] Yep.
Jared Johnson [03:18:34] Well, it was justified because it was every other week now. Right. Because they. How they change the format. So you only had Sunday school one week and they had young men the other week because they rotated. So they were saying, but it's only every other week. You'll be fine. I'm like, okay, like, sure, just add it to my plate.
John Dehlin [03:18:53] And so you're planning weekly young men's activities, teaching. You're having five callings at once. Organizing young men's. You're teaching young men's on Sunday, plus you're running the whole congregation.
Jared Johnson [03:19:08] Plus. Yep. All the normal, typical bishops.
Camille Johnson [03:19:10] And then all of the complaints about activities being canceled or they're not good enough for the young men or, you
Jared Johnson [03:19:19] know, you're dealing with the young men. Leadership role of the. Dealing with the parents as well. Right. That you typically have in any type of congregation. But now that's put on the bishop
John Dehlin [03:19:29] because parents are expecting their kids to have a good youth program. Right?
Camille Johnson [03:19:33] Yeah, yeah. And so then I was like, planning a lot of things too, or like running errands or like getting ice cream or like, you know, making sure the activity is going to be ready to go at 7 o' clock on Wednesday.
Margi Dehlin [03:19:46] Like in addition to your stake. Young women's calling. Wow.
Camille Johnson [03:19:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:19:51] And raising young kids.
Margi Dehlin [03:19:53] Yes.
Jared Johnson [03:19:54] Teenage kids. This is in our teenage years with our kids.
Camille Johnson [03:19:56] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:19:56] Okay. Okay. So that's too much. What else did you love or hate? Yeah, but you said you love that part.
Jared Johnson [03:20:02] I love being, I love being involved in the young, in the youth's life. That's the part I like the, the busyness side of it. It was starting to put a. Taking a toll on me, but I knew that that was the emphasis and I needed to be able to do that. I did like being able to just be Involved, more involved on a ward level, but not necessarily. Again, I had a hard time balancing that out between being involved and being too busy and taking on too much. And so those are the. It's just a challenge as a bishop. I think every bishop struggles with the balance of being a bishop, being a husband, being a provider, being the leader, being the spiritual leader of the ward, being the marriage counselor. I mean, the list just goes on and on and on. All these different callings or all these expectations that the bishop has given. Definitely a bishop. I think every bishop struggles with that.
John Dehlin [03:21:04] How often are you meeting with either husbands or wives in marriages?
Jared Johnson [03:21:08] Every week.
John Dehlin [03:21:09] Every week. How many?
Jared Johnson [03:21:11] I would say I met with at least one or two every single Sunday on top of. But that's on top of when you're constantly giving calls. So, you know, I'd have to delegate that a lot of times, too. So here I am just meeting with, you know, youth, because a lot of youth would. All sudden, I'd get an appointment. Youth wants to come meet with you right now at that time. Okay. And then you have your, you know, your couples that you're consistently meeting with and marital trouble.
John Dehlin [03:21:38] So you're not. You're not trained as a marriage therapist.
Jared Johnson [03:21:41] No.
John Dehlin [03:21:41] And yet couples are coming to you to seek marital help?
Jared Johnson [03:21:44] Yep. We are not given. Bishops are not given any training. The only training they are given when you are called, is study the handbook and make sure you understand how the finances are ran in the ward.
John Dehlin [03:21:54] So what types of problems would married couples come to you with?
Jared Johnson [03:21:57] All types of trouble. I mean, problems. And we had issues from just standard marital issues to how to raise their kids. They're not connecting with their kids. The husband, you know, can't keep a job. Intimacy problems with sexual.
John Dehlin [03:22:17] Sexual dysfunction.
Jared Johnson [03:22:17] Yeah. Yep. So intimacy issues between the marriage counseling or between the marriage.
John Dehlin [03:22:23] How did you deal with that?
Jared Johnson [03:22:25] Well, the first thing you know, when I got called to be a bishop, I even told after my dad was released, and I remember meeting the Stig, I told him, like, I am not. And I met with the new stake president. I told him, like, I'm not your typical bishop. Bishop. I'm just not going to be your typical because I want to do what I felt was best, and I was going to be led by the spirit. And for example, one of the first things I would say when a couple would come in to meet with marriage counseling, whatever the situation was, like, intimacy, I would say, look, I'm not your marriage counselor. There is professional counseling for that. We can talk about that. I Can help mediate a conversation. I can help talk through some things, but that, you know, there are some professionals that are. That, you know, as we talk through this, that I'm going to encourage you to. To do on your own. But.
John Dehlin [03:23:11] So I wanted times with couples not.
Jared Johnson [03:23:13] Yeah, most of the time they would. Because they relied on the church. They wanted the church to pay for it. They wanted to, you know, they don't want to have to pay for therapy or counseling and stuff like that.
John Dehlin [03:23:21] So even though you would tell people to see a therapist, they would just want to use you.
Jared Johnson [03:23:24] And a lot of times then we'd encourage them to. If they didn't want to go their own route, then I would then, as a backup, set up a time with the LDS counseling.
John Dehlin [03:23:34] Okay, so. So the types of problems they'd come to you with. Was there ever the porn masturbation problem with married couples?
Jared Johnson [03:23:40] For sure.
John Dehlin [03:23:41] How common was that?
Jared Johnson [03:23:42] More with the, you know, with the males, with the brethren. Pretty regularly I met with individuals that would have that issue, and it was a more of a shame thing. Sometimes the spouse did know. Sometimes the spouse did know, and she was the one that wanted him to come talk to me. And it was obviously uncomfortable for the men to come talk to me about that. And, you know, again, not being the standard bishop, I wouldn't get into the details about it. I said, the fact that you're here, that says a lot about you're trying to do the right thing. And let's work on a plan. Right, let's try to work on a plan to help you get back on track. And same thing with youth. I had a lot of youth come talk to me. And this is where. I felt super connected with the youth, because I'd have young women come in and talk to me about and starting to get into details. And had they spoke to other bishops and they would have to get into certain details about certain things. And I would just tell them about sexual experiences. About sexual experiences. And I would just say, look, the fact. And I would just stop them. I said, look, the fact that you're here shows that your heart is in the right place. And he had the right intentions. I don't need him to go. We don't need to go into the details. And it was. I just saw in their face the relief that they felt. Same thing with, you know, sisters in the ward or brethren in the ward, because that's not. That's between them and God. And I'm obviously, as the church tells you like I am the. They say that the bishop is the common judge in Israel.
Margi Dehlin [03:25:09] And.
Jared Johnson [03:25:10] And I still wanted to fulfill that part of the calling and at least be that sounding board for them. And.
Margi Dehlin [03:25:14] And.
Jared Johnson [03:25:14] And. But help them more, put together a plan to help them get back on track. I'd have sisters get angry with me that their husband. I let their husband attend the temple sooner than they thought. But I'm like, isn't that where we want your husband to be? We want them to be at the temple. They want to be at the temple. I'm not. Why is he only, you know, able to come out to the temple after a month? Right. Or vice versa? And it was just so sad to see those types of things. They just had a certain expectation because the church told me to do a certain thing. And I would say, look, you're in the right place. Your heart's in the right place. Let's just put together a plan of action to help you get back to feeling the best version of yourself and not feeling that guilt and shame. So that was kind of a philosophy that I always led by.
John Dehlin [03:26:02] How would you handle the. The porn masturbation problem? Let's just say a wife comes to you and says, my husband's looking at porn and masturbating. How would you deal with that?
Jared Johnson [03:26:13] Yeah, I would. I would say, does your first thing. I would ask him if. If it was just a sister coming and speaking with me, I would say, does your husband know you're here? That was the first. And sometimes they would say yes or no. And I'd say, is your husband open to talking with me about that? Have you guys had an open conversation about that? Because, sure, they can come talk to me about that. We can talk through it, but you guys need to have that open communication. That's really one thing that I emphasize. Even with other issues, I wanted them to have an open relationship and have an open conversation about it and not just come to the bishop, because that's what they're told, and they're used to coming to the bishop for everything.
Margi Dehlin [03:26:46] Right. That almost connects back to Camille's family story. Do you feel like that made you more sensitive and not wanting more?
Jared Johnson [03:26:54] Yeah, for sure. But, yeah, when I would deal with that, I mean, every situation is slightly different, but a lot of men were just felt guilty and embarrassed and shamed about it, and they didn't want to come talk to me about it. So when they would come and meet with you, we would put together a thing, but I'd invite the spouse to be there as well, so they can have that. Start having that open conversation because they didn't feel comfortable talking about it. So it's almost like they felt comfortable talking to. About it when I was there, but not by themselves. And I think that's just a church thing that the church has put on them is no, that's bad. That's a sin. That's a, you know, they are. They're sinning, they're doing. They're such a terrible person for doing some of those things. That's really, you know, it didn't need to be more as big as an issue as the church brings. Makes it.
John Dehlin [03:27:42] Yeah. Yeah. What I've concluded is that the way the church deals with and approaches porn and masturbation is much more harmful to the individual than the actual porn and masturbation. Would you say that's based on your experience as a bishop?
Jared Johnson [03:28:00] They definitely make it true. More of an issue or emphasize it more than it needs to be. Right. Because I was talking about where. Where do you look at it typically on their phone, on their tablets or whatever. Okay. Well, if it they. But they want them to be more exposed to it because that's all they want to do is talk about it. Talk about it. Talk about it. They want them to go to the. Through the 12 step program. All they do talk about. So it's constantly on their mind.
John Dehlin [03:28:23] And the church talks about it constantly.
Jared Johnson [03:28:25] Yeah, the church is constantly just emphasizing don't do it because it's so bad. Instead of saying, okay, I made a mistake, let's move on.
Camille Johnson [03:28:33] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:28:33] Do you think that there's an extra part in that too, where it's also the story that is created around someone who struggles with it. It's a character flaw. It has to do with your sense of morality for yourself, your sense of self control. Or do you feel like that adds a layer that is really proud of
John Dehlin [03:28:59] you or sin next to murder. Correct.
Jared Johnson [03:29:01] And you would have especially these brethren coming in. Like I said, they feel so much shame for it. And I would just kind of take the approach of let's figure out what the root of it is and let's get you some help if you feel like you need to get. Have some therapy, but if you don't, let's just, you know, they would make it almost believe themselves that's an addiction. When I don't think it really was an addiction. It was more of a. An episode or a situation that happened once or twice. But the church says, oh, if you do it once or twice, it's an addiction. Like you're addicted to porn. You're, you know.
Margi Dehlin [03:29:37] Right. Yep. The addiction model.
John Dehlin [03:29:41] Yeah. So what were the parts you really disliked about being a bishop? The parts that maybe started leading to your breakdown?
Jared Johnson [03:29:50] Yeah. So I'd say one of the first things was how bishops councils were handled. So as in the stake, all of the bishops would meet together, just the bishops. And without any presidency members there, it was just the nine or 10 or 11 bishops. And we would counsel together on how to best help. Help our individual wards. And I was pleasantly surprised how much control the bishops wanted and felt like they had. For example, let's say there was a sister in the ward that wasn't paying. She didn't have a job and her husband wasn't active. He. He didn't want to. He wasn't paying tithing. He would not let that sister have a temple recommend because they weren't paying tithing. Or they would want way more details. When an individual was coming to them, going through the repentance process, they would want way more details than was necessary or was appropriate. And I started raising my voice a little bit and talking about some of his concerns. And it was starting to, oh, Jared, Bishop Johnson was always the one. He's always the one trying to be negative or be confident, critical and stuff like that. But I'm like, I was. I just was so almost disappointed in how some of the bishops. But I'm like, okay, that they can handle the bishop. They can be bishops how they want. And that was a. That was the first thing that I really emotionally like, wow, that's not the type of bishop I want to be. I was super surprised on how much emphasis the church trained and wanted you to manage finances.
John Dehlin [03:31:32] What do you mean? Finances of the ward or finances of the ward?
Jared Johnson [03:31:35] Yeah, I remember I had a training with Elder. I believe it was Elder Anderson. And Elder Anderson talked about one of the biggest expenses that the Utah has in general was paying for mortgages and rent payments for members who were struggling. And I was actually surprised about that because I was always told that in the handbook it says you don't support lifestyle. You can support living, you know, and so means that you can pay for the utilities and stuff like that, but you don't support necessarily a lifestyle, pay for their cars and stuff like that. But it was circumstantial type situations. And I just want to share a quick story on that is I had a sister in the war. She was a single mother of two kids. And while I was working with her for a few months with some, she was Just struggling like a lot of people were during COVID and post Covid and she, we were talking about her finances and going through and putting together a plan and the whole self reliance and they call that spiritual reliance and financial reliance or self reliance. That was a big thing that was emphasized right after Covid because everybody was relying on the church. They wanted to get away with that. So having this training in the back of my mind right after Covid with the other answers, Anderson was just really just prevalent in the back of my mind. And I wanted to make sure I talked to everybody about it. And so I helped her out for a couple of months. But then you were told after three months or after 90 days, you need to make sure that these individuals could be self reliant. And she had a lot of struggles. She went through, not just with the church, but she wasn't active, personal and everything like that. And she had some addiction issues. But I remember getting a call one day. And she had taken her life. Sorry. And I just thought that added pressure of being able to help her out just a little bit more, what that could have done for her. And I don't know, obviously I don't know the reasons why she took her life, but that was one of the first turning points of really internalizing like what am I doing? Am I doing the right things for the right reasons or am I more doing it for the church?
John Dehlin [03:33:57] Did you say you were told to cut her off?
Jared Johnson [03:33:59] I was told that a plan should typically be about 90 days.
John Dehlin [03:34:04] So she had three months of rent.
Jared Johnson [03:34:05] She had three months of rent we were helping her out with. And it needed, I think, I don't remember exactly, but anything beyond that needed to get approved by the Stake Presidency. And we talked about that and I said, you know, sit down and go through your finances and go through, figure out what you're able to do and come back to me and let me know what you need help with. But you need to kind of really get into your finances. And I think I really did a good job with that. I really wanted to educate people, people and really help them get back on track with their finances and take some accountability, not just, you know, fall back on, you know, be relying on the church. And I just remember when I got that call, I just broke down. I just really. And that was the start of my kind of my mental health realizing how much I am taking on as a bishop.
John Dehlin [03:34:59] And you felt partially responsible.
Jared Johnson [03:35:04] Yeah, I did. Because regardless of, of her motive or what really why it happened, if I could have just Like I said, remove just a little bit of stress, alleviated a little bit of stress from what she was going through. I don't know if it would have made a difference, but I. At least I could have played a part in that. And so, yeah, I do feel a little bit responsible.
John Dehlin [03:35:39] But when we think about all you were dealing with, you know, like, how could anyone. Like, I mean, it makes no sense. In all the sense in the world. Camille, do you remember that time?
Camille Johnson [03:35:50] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:35:51] Do you have any thoughts or memories of just what that was like for him and as an observer and for you and the family?
Camille Johnson [03:35:58] Yeah, it was hard. I actually went over and cleaned out the apartment after they took her body.
Margi Dehlin [03:36:08] So that's very personal.
Camille Johnson [03:36:10] Yeah. So it was a lot. I think we both were just, you know, getting through and just feeling really bad about it.
Margi Dehlin [03:36:22] So.
Camille Johnson [03:36:22] Sorry.
John Dehlin [03:36:24] So sorry. It's weird because the church has, we know, $250 billion on the one hand. On the other hand, they can't pay everyone's rent.
Camille Johnson [03:36:35] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:36:36] Or mortgages. You know what I mean? So how do you. What's the right balance? Right. Yeah.
Jared Johnson [03:36:42] Yeah, yeah. So that was a big turning point for me. But then it also was, like I said, a starting point of acknowledging mental health, because really, up to that point, I was just. I could get through it. I could get through it. I also dealt with a couple of divorce situations where I felt a little bit responsible for those. A couple? There was several. Not several. There was two couples in our war that ended up getting divorced. Did I say enough? Did I not say enough? Did I try to put it off to other people? Because I would tell them, look, I'm not a marriage counselor, but I will help mediate this conversation. And you can never please one or the other. Right. If you're agreeing with the sister or the brother, you're always the one in between. Why are you agreeing with her? Why are you agreeing with him? Or whatever it was? And I had two situations where they end up getting divorced. I end up feeling a little bit of responsibility for that. At that same time, there was a sister in our ward, a young mother of six boys, that Camille was her ministering person, whatever you want to call it. I was her friend, and she was battling with cancer, and she end up passing away. And Camille was super close with her.
Camille Johnson [03:38:04] And we actually, as soon as we found out, the minute that she died, we went down to the house and helped carry her body to the. What are they called?
Jared Johnson [03:38:17] The car. I don't know what you call them.
Margi Dehlin [03:38:19] The hearse.
Jared Johnson [03:38:22] I had, you know, this is all within, you know, three months, six months.
Camille Johnson [03:38:28] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:38:29] Okay.
Camille Johnson [03:38:30] Do we want to tell the story about that? Her bedroom?
Jared Johnson [03:38:34] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:38:35] I mean, that's going back.
Jared Johnson [03:38:36] Yeah. I mean. Yeah. But then we also dealt with one of our good friends. They had lost their. Their son. He was. He was our sons. So at this time, he was nine years old. One of his best friends, they had moved out of the ward, but we stayed really close with them.
Camille Johnson [03:38:56] One of our friends that we would travel with.
Jared Johnson [03:38:58] Yeah. One of our friends that we would travel with, they had lost their son in the middle of the night for no reason. He had just died.
Camille Johnson [03:39:05] He just. He didn't wake up.
Jared Johnson [03:39:06] He didn't wake up the next day. And he was my. He was our. One of our son's best friends. And so we were dealing with that as well.
Margi Dehlin [03:39:13] This is all in month time.
Jared Johnson [03:39:17] This is like 20.
Camille Johnson [03:39:18] 20, 20, 20, 20, 21.
Jared Johnson [03:39:21] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:39:21] Okay.
Camille Johnson [03:39:22] Wow.
Jared Johnson [03:39:23] My first year or two of being bishop.
Margi Dehlin [03:39:25] Okay.
Camille Johnson [03:39:26] And I felt like we were always like, in the mid. The middle of, like, what was happening, like.
Margi Dehlin [03:39:33] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:39:33] When my friend found out that her son didn't wake up, like, she called me.
Margi Dehlin [03:39:39] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:39:40] And so I was there in the moment, like.
Margi Dehlin [03:39:43] Yes. So up close to the grief. Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:39:47] That you can't even imagine.
Margi Dehlin [03:39:49] Right. And
Jared Johnson [03:39:52] I was out of town and I came home that night and she was the first person. She wanted a. I came in and she was just screaming. It was just.
Camille Johnson [03:40:03] And so we were very involved in. In that whole funeral and. Wow. Setting up. They ended up using our church because Jared was the bishop, so. And the church is across the street from.
Jared Johnson [03:40:18] They also had the bishops be. We rotated who was the church. The calendar guy.
Camille Johnson [03:40:23] Oh, yeah. He scheduled the building. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:40:26] So they wanted details.
Jared Johnson [03:40:27] All the details. They put that on the bishop then.
Margi Dehlin [03:40:30] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:40:31] Yeah. And so we, We. They wanted the funeral at our building because the cemetery is across the street. So it was just, like, convenient. And so we took care of, like, getting the building ready. And I went and opened up the building when they. They brought the casket in the morning. And so I got to sit there with this little nine year old by myself. Well, I waited for the family to come for the funeral. And so. Yeah, just a lot.
Margi Dehlin [03:41:03] It was a lot.
Jared Johnson [03:41:04] Yeah. And then that same summer, I had a good group of young men that I was working with. And every year, and they were getting ready to graduate, they're on their way out. And every year we did the same campouts every year. And I said, what do you guys want to do? They're like, oh, we don't want to do anything this summer. We're graduating, we're moving on. And I kind of convinced them, okay, you guys plan. You could do whatever you want. And so they wanted to go down to St. George because we had some connections down in St. George. And I did something completely out of the box. We rented an Airbnb. We did something completely. Just what they wanted to do as their last kind of get go. And I got so much flack for how much we spent. Majority of that trip. I paid for it out of pocket because of the young women's president of the release side president and how much we would have spent on that trip. And, you know, we shouldn't be going to St. George. And just all the pressure from all the parents being so disappointed in allowing these boys and taking them down there to do this. It was. It was that. It was like summer.
Camille Johnson [03:42:09] It was like it didn't matter what you did, it was never good enough.
Jared Johnson [03:42:12] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:42:13] It wasn't the right way or it wasn't what the parents expected.
John Dehlin [03:42:16] And so parents weren't generally grateful.
Jared Johnson [03:42:19] No, no.
Camille Johnson [03:42:20] I.
Jared Johnson [03:42:20] If I did. If I stepped forward with my right foot, it was wrong. If I stepped forward my left foot, it was wrong.
Camille Johnson [03:42:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:42:24] They were constantly criticizing you.
Camille Johnson [03:42:26] And the weird thing is this is where, like, stuff started happening, is they would come to me and complain about.
Margi Dehlin [03:42:33] That's so hard.
Camille Johnson [03:42:34] My husband.
Jared Johnson [03:42:35] Like, I was back. I was in the backyard mowing the lawn, and you were inside talking to a couple young women, and they were just complaining about me on how I was doing certain things.
Camille Johnson [03:42:47] And I was like, whoa. Like, usually I'm just like, you know, not. Don't want to ruffle feathers or, you know, I was like, whoa. Like, do, you know, like, everything that he's doing? And he's my husband.
John Dehlin [03:42:59] Husband.
Camille Johnson [03:42:59] And he's my husband. Like, you don't need to be, like, complaining to me because it's. That's not gonna help. Right.
Margi Dehlin [03:43:06] Do anything. So really high levels of scrutiny.
Jared Johnson [03:43:11] Yeah. I would get emails and text messages every Sunday for. I can't remember how long this went on for about how what we did wrong or right or what we did wrong. Especially that Sunday lessons that were taught that shouldn't be taught that way. How the sacred meaning songs were not a. Was it in line with. During the month of July, we didn't always sing about the pioneers. Right. And I was like, no, it needs to be centered around Christ. And that was more my thing. So everything. Every Sunday night, I would, okay, what Text messages and emails. Am I going to get today about people complaining about how church was ran
Camille Johnson [03:43:50] that day day, or like how the ward was sitting, like we need to close the back so everyone sits closer
Jared Johnson [03:43:55] together or people are on their cell phones too much. I'm like, well, how do you know they're not on their scriptures? Scriptures or yeah. And every week it was just something else. And Camille would be like, you've got to turn it off. Like, no, I need a response and let them know they're acknowledged and their voice is heard. And that's just who kind of how I was.
Camille Johnson [03:44:14] And that's something I want to touch on as well. Because you think back to, you know, our grandparents generation when, when they were bishops and how they handled it and they could do it. It was, you know, that they, they did it great and they weren't as overwhelmed or something. And so the more that I thought about it, I was like, the reason this is so heavy and hard is these bishops have a constant communication with, with every single person in the ward. Everyone can be in contact with the bishop anytime. Yeah, Email, text, phone call.
Margi Dehlin [03:44:55] Everyone has a direct line.
Camille Johnson [03:44:57] A direct line, when in reality it should be going through the secretary and he should be making a schedule. And then you have your meetings in
Jared Johnson [03:45:06] the senate president or the, you know, the elders quorum president. And it didn't matter how much the church would always say, well, delegate, delegate. Have them go through that. They still want to just talk. They just, they've been ingrained. The church puts it ingrained that it's put on the bishop. The bishop is the one that handles those things. So. And I'm embarrassed to go talk to my really saddy president about it, but I can talk to my bishop.
Margi Dehlin [03:45:24] That's right.
Jared Johnson [03:45:24] Right.
Margi Dehlin [03:45:25] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [03:45:25] And then it's the, you know, it's constantly going out in the middle of the night, early mornings, late at night, going and giving blessings, you know, and the same blessings for the same reasons to the same person day after day after day. And finally just getting to the point where you're educating them around what a blessing is and what the doctrine behind a blessing and them thinking that. No, the church tells me every time I'm sick or have a cough or a cold, I need a blessing from the bishop because my husband isn't worthy. And I was like, I just gave you a blessing the other day about the exact same thing. And it was just starting to all just start to build up and just so much was going on.
Camille Johnson [03:46:05] And for some reason, like I remember you Telling me one time, ward council, where, you know, everyone has their opinions and they want things certain ways or whatever. And, like, you would say, well, I think we need to do it this way. And then everyone would complain. And I think at one point, he was just like, fine, everyone, do whatever you freaking want to do. Yeah. And that's when I was like, oh, boy. Right. Right. That's not like you.
Margi Dehlin [03:46:29] That's right.
Jared Johnson [03:46:30] And then at that same time, I got an email about. A very, very, very long email about a complaint that was not necessary. And I responded probably not in the most compassionate way, saying, hey, you need to please just worry about yourself type of thing. That's kind of how. How I responded. And I'm. It didn't go over well. It got taken up to my counselors in the stake, and it wasn't anything rude. It was just pretty much this mind your own business type of response. And that didn't go over well either.
Margi Dehlin [03:47:04] Interesting.
Jared Johnson [03:47:05] And when I started responding like that, my counselor started saying, hey, what's going on with Jared? Something's going on. He's a little bit. Not a norm. Camille started mentioning some things like, what's going on with Jared? He doesn't usually respond like this, or he's a little more compassionate towards how he responds.
Margi Dehlin [03:47:22] And, yeah, I so get that. I was hoping, like, so just a temporary pivot, but because you guys kind of set up that when you were called as bishop, your children had concerns about that or felt loss about being able to spend as much time with you. And also, I just want to check in on your experience, you know, of him being bishop and also your own faith during that time and your experience. Can we just kind of pivot?
John Dehlin [03:47:53] Because you had a history of depression.
Camille Johnson [03:47:55] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:47:56] And now your husband's getting all this extra pressure and stress and complaints, and you're carrying that as well, right?
Camille Johnson [03:48:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:48:02] Yeah. What was all this like for you?
Margi Dehlin [03:48:03] And you. Literally, it feels like a crossroad a little bit when you take a calling and, you know, this. Actually now I have data from my children that this is hurting them, that this. Now, the church. What the church. Church is asking me to do is in some ways playing out against my family's, you know, happiness, joy, and, you know, what we want. And you know that as you're showing up in this way. Right. So, yeah. And you're home, so you would be experiencing a lot of that as well. The lived experience of. Of that as well as just kind of your own experience during this time.
Camille Johnson [03:48:41] Yeah. Yeah, it was really interesting. I Don't know. Like, we talk about the shelf and the things that you've questioned or like things that you've kind of like, just pushed to the side and you just have faith and you continue on. And for whatever reason, those items on my shelf were getting pretty big. And like, what I think, like, working with the youth and learning a lot about, like, LGBTQ issues, you know, being in the Stake Young Woman's and not letting girls come because they were gay or trans or, you know, things like that.
Camille's Faith Crisis and Stepping Back from Church
John Dehlin [03:49:32] And wait, wait, there were lesbian, gay or trans youth that were disallowed from activities?
Camille Johnson [03:49:39] Yes, yes.
John Dehlin [03:49:42] They just couldn't come.
Camille Johnson [03:49:43] Yeah. And if they did, there were like rules and things set up for these girls.
John Dehlin [03:49:51] So, like, that bothered. That bothered you?
Camille Johnson [03:49:53] Yeah, that would be if it was
John Dehlin [03:49:54] sin from a believing Mormon perspective. Why did it bother you?
Camille Johnson [03:49:58] I guess I. I was a little bit more nuanced on that because I. I just love people so much and I love hearing about people's experiences in their life and giving people the benefit of a doubt. And I just didn't feel like we were listening to these youth. We were assuming things and we were putting rules and guidelines like, that were in judgment that weren't necessary. There was one girl that we thought was trans because she had changed her name. I don't know. There was. There was a lot of things going on and. But she wanted to come to girls camp and so we. Someone came up with this plan of having her stay in a tent with the leaders. And this was never a conversation with the girl. This was just like a plan that we had come up with, you know, and throughout the week she was like, why am I staying in the tent with the leaders?
Jared Johnson [03:51:04] Which is also inappropriate.
Camille Johnson [03:51:06] Which is very. Yeah, I know. There were just. There's so many, like, weird things that were just. I'm like, I don't know, what are we doing? And one of the leaders was like, well, because you're. You're gay. And she was like, no, I'm not. And we were like, oh. Like, it was just. Just like things that were unnecessary but, like hyper focused and, you know, things that just didn't matter that, that we were focusing on and not understanding. I guess.
Margi Dehlin [03:51:39] Yeah, some misinformation.
Camille Johnson [03:51:41] Misinformation, yeah. So things like that really bothered me and I really had a problem with garments and I feel like a lot of my, like, running and working out was so that I didn't have to wear garments really quickly.
John Dehlin [03:52:04] Just what were the worst things about them for you?
Camille Johnson [03:52:07] Oh, my gosh the fit, the styles, the suffocation, the yeast, the comfort, the layers and layers that you'd have to wear with them. And so I wouldn't wear them, and I would just be like, oh, well, I'm gonna go running later, or I'm gonna work out later or whatever.
John Dehlin [03:52:33] Justified.
Camille Johnson [03:52:34] And I got to the point that I was like, I am lying. I'm lying. I'm not going on a run later. And I. I got to the point that I was like, no, I. I don't. I'm just not wearing them because I don't want to. And so that was kind of.
John Dehlin [03:52:50] I didn't know a bishop's wife could say that.
Camille Johnson [03:52:53] He didn't really know. I mean, because I was wearing workout clothes.
Jared Johnson [03:52:57] Yeah, I just like, oh, she's gonna work. She worked out today, or she's gonna be working out today.
Camille Johnson [03:53:00] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:53:01] When you're. And when you're busy enough.
John Dehlin [03:53:03] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:53:03] And you're seeing each other in small increments, it's just like, oh, she's working out. Yep. Okay.
Jared Johnson [03:53:08] Good job.
Camille Johnson [03:53:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:53:10] We squeeze it in.
Camille Johnson [03:53:11] Yeah, good job. And so that was one of my. My big things where I was like, I really need to, like, think through this, because it's supposed to be important. Maybe I don't understand the covenants I made or, you know, and so I'm putting that pressure on me. Like, you're not understanding the commitment, and I just. I don't know. I just didn't want to do it.
Margi Dehlin [03:53:41] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:53:42] So. Yeah. So I. I stopped wearing my garments.
John Dehlin [03:53:47] And did you tell him that or.
Camille Johnson [03:53:49] Just not at that time, kind of.
Jared Johnson [03:53:51] It was later evolved into. I obviously, over time, kind of realized, like, oh, she's always working out, I guess. And that was kind of her out. Right. And so we. I don't know when we finally had an open conversation about it, but we had also, like I said from the very beginning, neither of us were a huge fan of the temple. We just always went for the sake. I started going to the temple by myself a lot every month, and so it was kind of trending in that direction.
John Dehlin [03:54:26] Did Camille explain to you. Did you explain to him why you didn't want to go to the temple anymore?
Jared Johnson [03:54:30] No, she's just like, oh, it's long. You know, it's long. It's. You know, she didn't like it, or it was kind of weird, or, you know, it just didn't resonate with her, I guess, is the right.
Camille Johnson [03:54:42] I think that is. I think that's a really good way to put it. Is the resignation of. Or, like, feeling connected to it. Like, I never did. I never felt that, like, spiritual uplifting when I was there. And my Mormon brain is like, well, because you didn't go enough.
Margi Dehlin [03:55:01] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:55:01] You didn't learn enough. You didn't know the real reasons that the temple is important. And. And it just never resonated with me. So. So, yeah, so I was battling with that a little bit and feeling really lonely. It was weird. Our friends started to kind of fizzle out, especially when he became bishop.
Margi Dehlin [03:55:28] So it did end up kind of changing the relationship a bit.
Jared Johnson [03:55:30] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:55:31] Yeah. And so that was hard. My kids didn't want to go to church, and I didn't want to, like, force that on them and, like, create a bad experience as far as, like, you know, a fight every Sunday, which my Mormon brain is like. But that's what you do. You.
Margi Dehlin [03:55:53] Yes. The conditioning.
Camille Johnson [03:55:55] You just go. It's hard. You sacrifice. It's miserable. You know, it's miserable. Or whatever. And so I would attend by myself. And I just remember sitting alone in the chapel and looking at Jared and his counselors, and they look miserable. We're so tired, you know, And I'm just like, wow, that's great. And then I kind of look around and I'm just like, does anyone even want to be here?
Margi Dehlin [03:56:27] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:56:28] Like, this just feels so depressing. Like, it just was. It just always felt. Yeah, it just always felt forced, I guess is the word. Like, no one really wanted to have their callings. No one really wanted to go to the activities, but it was just what we did. And it just felt like this, like, constant. Like, I don't even know what the word is.
Margi Dehlin [03:56:53] Yeah. But hustle.
Camille Johnson [03:56:55] Hustle. Yeah. Yeah. And I wasn't feeling fulfilled spiritually, which was kind of always hard. And I think maybe because I wasn't busy anymore, because I didn't have a big calling anymore because Jared was the bishop. And so I got to sit in my own brain and my own heart and really fill that.
Margi Dehlin [03:57:17] Like, oh, you could reflect. You could connect to yourself. You could connect with your own experiences. Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:57:25] And realizing, like, wow, I really don't resonate with this.
John Dehlin [03:57:32] So as the bishop's wife.
Camille Johnson [03:57:35] As the bishop's wife, you're starting to
John Dehlin [03:57:36] have a faith crisis.
Margi Dehlin [03:57:37] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:57:38] Is that how you thought of it
Camille Johnson [03:57:39] or not in that exact moment? Well, I don't think I called it a faith crisis. I just. I think I. I felt like I was healing, like, from just, like, trauma that we had gone through as, like, all these Callings and things that we had experienced. And so I was like, I'm just. I'm just healing, and I don't feel like I can heal here.
Margi Dehlin [03:58:02] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:58:02] And so I actually stopped attending regular, regularly. I'd go every once in a while,
John Dehlin [03:58:08] but this is not the first story I've heard of the. The bishop's wife going. Going inactive. Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:58:15] Really?
John Dehlin [03:58:15] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's quite common, actually.
Camille Johnson [03:58:18] Interesting.
John Dehlin [03:58:19] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:58:20] Yeah. And so I just. I remember laying a bed. I had set my alarm so that I could get up and go to church, and I just started bawling.
Margi Dehlin [03:58:30] I was like, I just.
Camille Johnson [03:58:31] I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't explain it. I can't. You know, and, like, you're thinking, oh, my gosh, Satan's got me. Satan is, like, giving me these thoughts that, like, I. I shouldn't go, or, you know, whatever, but, like, I just physically could not even get out of bed to go. Go to church.
Margi Dehlin [03:58:52] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:58:53] And so that was kind of my. Like, okay, then don't. Just. Just rest.
Margi Dehlin [03:59:01] Wow.
Camille Johnson [03:59:02] And. And be here with your kids. And. And that's what I did. I. It was kind of my favorite day. Yeah.
Jared Johnson [03:59:13] You're in sacrament. Like, where are you?
Camille Johnson [03:59:15] He. He's doing all the church stuff. He's doing everything. And, like. Like, me and my kids are making pancakes and having this amazing connection at home.
Margi Dehlin [03:59:21] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [03:59:22] You know.
Margi Dehlin [03:59:22] Yep.
Camille Johnson [03:59:23] And. And. And maybe you felt that a little bit. Like, as far as, like, wow, I'm. I'm missing out on this.
Margi Dehlin [03:59:31] Right.
Camille Johnson [03:59:33] So.
Margi Dehlin [03:59:34] So powerful.
Camille Johnson [03:59:35] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:59:38] So did that come up as a point of tension when. When Camille stops going to church?
Jared Johnson [03:59:45] I wouldn't say a point of tension, because we don't really have, like, big arguments and stuff like that, but I did started to notice that my kids are starting to attend less, and Bishop's family's going inactive. Yeah, it was.
Camille Johnson [04:00:01] Were we on the list?
Margi Dehlin [04:00:03] He's like, they're dropping like flies.
Jared Johnson [04:00:05] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [04:00:05] They're out.
Margi Dehlin [04:00:06] This is my family.
Jared Johnson [04:00:07] And I, you know, noticed Camille wasn't attending regularly, and I'd send her text messages. Everything okay? You know, sometimes she would wait to respond, or sometimes she would respond right away. And I'm, like, texting up on the. You know, on the stand. And then I just remember having some conversations about, we don't want to force our kids. We don't want the church to turn into a negative experience. We both came in agreement to that. She expressed some concerns about feeling the pressure and feeling the. Just. It's just a lot. And she doesn't feel connected. It wasn't resonated with her. It wasn't necessarily a negative thing. I was just starting to see the shift. The shift a little bit. And I started when I started. And I remember one time you came and I remember just looking out there and seeing her and just breaking down. And I'm just. I was just in tears, just saying like, kind of like, where are we at? Like, what are we doing? And are we doing this? Is this really what's best for our family? But the family's center of the plan, right? That's what the church tells you.
Margi Dehlin [04:01:19] Right.
Jared Johnson [04:01:20] You know, that's the center. That's the core. But the church was literally tearing our family apart. Yes, it was literally tearing our family.
John Dehlin [04:01:27] That's how you see it now? Oh, for sure, for sure.
Camille Johnson [04:01:29] I think we felt that in the moment. Moment.
Jared Johnson [04:01:31] Yeah, in that. No, in the moment.
Camille Johnson [04:01:33] That's why I started crying while he was bishop.
Jared Johnson [04:01:34] While I was bishop.
Margi Dehlin [04:01:35] Which is why you started crying, right?
Jared Johnson [04:01:37] Yeah, I just. I just. I just started really. I'm like internalizing this. And then slowly after that I started feeling like a hypocrite because here I am coming up on the pulpit, speaking, doing lessons about families need to be there. We need to go reach out to the lost sheep. Right. You know, we need to be attending the temple regularly. We need to be reading, you know, come. We need to be doing. Come follow me. Every week. We need to be doing scripture study every week with our families. And we weren't doing that at our home. Not because we didn't think it was the right thing. It just. It wasn't working in our family. It wasn't resonating with our family. And it's just we found other ways of connecting with our family. We found connection in traveling together and being together and having those moments where we wanted to have more of a physical connection. Connection and not have the connection because of the church. We want to find our own family
Camille Johnson [04:02:27] connection and learning that through our kids personalities as well. Because with our daughter, she is very driven and stubborn and amazing and independent. And independent. And I just knew that if we would have forced and shoved things down her throat and everything, that maybe it would have ended badly.
Jared Johnson [04:02:55] And so here I am just week after week talking about these things and preaching about these things and telling the congregation to do these things. And I wasn't doing it up to that point. It really hadn't bothered me until I started really seeing my family and how it was affecting my family.
Camille Johnson [04:03:11] Right.
Jared Johnson [04:03:11] And so yeah. And so that just kind of happened for a couple months. And.
Margi Dehlin [04:03:18] And where is this in the timeline compared to the months of just like, loss after loss after loss and the heavy critiquing of you? And is this after that?
Camille Johnson [04:03:30] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [04:03:31] Okay.
Jared Johnson [04:03:32] Yeah, this is after. This is in the 2022. Pretty much all of 20.
John Dehlin [04:03:36] 22 years ago.
Jared Johnson [04:03:37] Two years ago. Yeah. Yep, 2022. And all this was starting to build up.
Margi Dehlin [04:03:41] You guys have had heavy months. Just really so much to hold for months and months. Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:03:48] And in Mormon culture, there's like this solemn sacredness. There's this idea that once a bishop, always a bishop. Like, Mormons know that bishops carry weight, a way, way heavy load, if not too much. And there's kind of reverence about it, but it's also just like. Yeah. And that's the calling.
Camille Johnson [04:04:05] And I also think, because you're gonna be so blessed, the blessings that you're gonna get from being the bishop's family. And I remember thinking, like, I don't even know if whatever these blessings are that we're gonna get. Like, I don't even think it's worth it.
Margi Dehlin [04:04:20] Or you're like, I'm not sure I want those, actually, because no one can
Camille Johnson [04:04:23] tell me what that blessing's gonna be exactly. I don't know. And maybe I'll get it in the afterlife. I don't know.
Jared Johnson [04:04:30] And one of the things that really started to hit me as well is everybody prays for the bishop's family. Pray for the bishop and his bishop and the bishop's family. But yet nobody was reaching out to Camille to make sure she was okay.
Camille Johnson [04:04:43] Right.
Margi Dehlin [04:04:44] Just the basic.
Jared Johnson [04:04:45] They were just so they. Every Sunday, they'd pray for the bishop and his family, but they weren't physically going over, making sure she's okay. And I think that's a big thing in the church. So it's such a cultural thing where you hear it while. Pray for you.
Margi Dehlin [04:05:01] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:05:01] Instead of just praying for somebody, how about we actually go over there, do something and do something. Something about it.
Margi Dehlin [04:05:06] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:05:07] You know, and I'm just start here I am the bishop of the ward.
Margi Dehlin [04:05:11] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:05:12] Starting to fill all these different from my family to the cultural side. I started having some. Some meeting with some individuals about some church history and some negative things about church history. And me not really knowing how to answer those because I've never been told, don't look into the anti stuff. Don't get into anti Doctors, doctor in
John Dehlin [04:05:32] and meet what were just a topic or two that they would come to you with.
Jared Johnson [04:05:35] A lot of Joseph Smith, history of the church, the, you know, translation of the Book of Mormon, the whole polygamy thing. And I, again, I was always told, you know, don't, you know, just have faith, everything will be okay. We don't have all the answers. Just have faith, everything will be okay. And so I started really feeling like a hypocrite, not being able to start, you know, just giving that as the standard answer. How many times can you give a standard answer without actually being able to give some counsel around how to handle that? And these were real concerns that people had.
John Dehlin [04:06:07] So, real quick, the Gospel topics essays were released around 2013, where they talked about Joseph Smith's polygamy with underage girls. They talked about the Book of Mormon, they talked about DNA in the Book of Mormon, they talked about the Mountain Meadows Massacre and a lot of the books, Book of Abraham, a lot of the big problems. Number one. Did you receive any training as a bishop on what these historical or truth claims issues were? Any training?
Jared Johnson [04:06:36] No, absolutely no training at all. But when I did reach out to get some training on it, the response that I was given to tell people was, we don't have all the answers. Just have faith and everything will work out.
Discovering Church History and Mormon Stories Podcast
John Dehlin [04:06:48] Were you aware of the Gospel topics essays when you had become bishop?
Jared Johnson [04:06:52] Not until towards the end of being bishop, when.
John Dehlin [04:06:55] Okay, so you. Were you in. You were. This is 2022. No, 2020, you're called as a bishop, and at that point, you're in your 40s, 30s, late 30s, and you had never heard of the Gospel topics essays that had been released?
Jared Johnson [04:07:12] CS letter, Nothing. I've never heard any. I never heard anything about that.
Camille Johnson [04:07:15] That was the bubble we were in.
John Dehlin [04:07:17] Yeah, yeah. So the church put those out, but clearly not actually for the members.
Jared Johnson [04:07:22] Well, they have.
Camille Johnson [04:07:22] They.
Jared Johnson [04:07:22] They put it out, but they keep it hidden. They don't want to talk about it because, again, they don't want to have individuals look at it. But social pressure, they say, okay, we'll just post it. We'll just throw it out there. Because of the social pressure that they get about not being transparent about it.
Camille Johnson [04:07:38] It's never publicly, like, announced, like, hey, now we have this on our website. Go read these essays.
John Dehlin [04:07:44] And you weren't told. This is a resource for you, bishop, and for your ward members. If they have doubts and questions.
Margi Dehlin [04:07:51] What?
Jared Johnson [04:07:52] No.
John Dehlin [04:07:52] Is that what they're there for?
Jared Johnson [04:07:54] That's what they're there for. But they don't want to be. Again, they don't want to highlight those things. It's not like they get up in general conference and say, look, we have this next. We're growing. We are starting to become more understanding. We want to be more transparent about some of these things. No, at least not that I was aware of. But again, I reached out several times to several individuals in our stake about doctrinal issues and history of the church. And that's what I was told. What to say, Respond, just respond to people like this and just tell them to have faith and, you know, we don't have all the answers and everything will be okay and just live righteous and you'll be able to go to the temple and you'll be able to live with your families forever. I'm like, what about the moment? You know, these are real concerns that people have. And I just started to really. That started really to build me up, build up in my mind and I don't have the answers. And maybe I should start looking into those things.
John Dehlin [04:08:41] I mean, I'm just, I'm outraged that, number one, it took so long for the church to come clean about its historical problems and its truth claims problems. But then they make a big fanfare in some circles to say, hey, we're transparent now. We've now come clean. We're now releasing this stuff. But they don't give bishops any training. They don't even let bishops know. The Gospel topics essays exist so that the bishops can be prepared for these questions and problems, have their own, and provide support to the members. And we know that thousands, tens of thousands of Mormons are leaving the church every year over these issues. So the church has to know the bishops are going to be constantly getting questions about the Book of Abraham, about the Book of Mormon, about Joseph's polygamy and the Masonic Temple Lodge connections to the temple ceremony and all these problems. And yet they left you completely unsupported without any knowledge or support. You're not even made aware of the essays so that you can tell your members to read them.
Jared Johnson [04:09:48] Yeah. No, nothing.
John Dehlin [04:09:49] I'm just blown away.
Jared Johnson [04:09:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:09:51] In 2022.
Jared Johnson [04:09:53] 2022.
John Dehlin [04:09:56] Wow.
Jared Johnson [04:09:56] It was, it was rough. And that's why when you start, you know. But again, I was super busy, so I really didn't think it was a. It was a big thing that I had to really look into. Right. And I was told the answer to give. Right. So I didn't really think more of that until I started. All this is starting to build up. I started. Started really reflecting on where I stand in my position and my thoughts and my feelings towards all this. And that's just kind of leading up to my breakdown.
John Dehlin [04:10:25] So, Camille, did you get into the truth claims, church history stuff during this time period?
Camille Johnson [04:10:30] Not the truth claims.
John Dehlin [04:10:32] Okay.
Camille Johnson [04:10:33] I did start listening to Mormon stories. Well, no Mormon stories. It wasn't my first one. It was Valerie Hammaker.
Margi Dehlin [04:10:46] What?
Camille Johnson [04:10:46] It. What is it called?
John Dehlin [04:10:48] Oh, oh, look, it's in your outline. Yeah, keep talking.
Camille Johnson [04:10:52] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [04:10:52] And did you mention Julie Hanks and Julie Hanks?
Camille Johnson [04:10:54] Yeah. Yeah. And I just. I loved their perspective of, you know, it was. It was kind of more, I think, the Hammer curse. Is it Hammockers? Anyways.
John Dehlin [04:11:04] Latter day stroke. Latter day struggles.
Margi Dehlin [04:11:06] Yes.
Camille Johnson [04:11:06] Latter day struggles.
John Dehlin [04:11:08] How'd you hear about it?
Camille Johnson [04:11:13] Julie Hanks interviewed Valerie, and then Valerie linked her podcast.
John Dehlin [04:11:19] And how'd you hear about Julie?
Camille Johnson [04:11:21] Just Instagram. Just. I had followed her and loved her work.
John Dehlin [04:11:26] And she has a big following.
Camille Johnson [04:11:28] Yeah, she does.
John Dehlin [04:11:29] She's.
Camille Johnson [04:11:30] She's amazing.
Margi Dehlin [04:11:30] She's fantastic. Yeah.
Camille Johnson [04:11:31] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:11:31] So basically, Julie Hanks led you to Latter day struggles, which led you to Mormon stories.
Margi Dehlin [04:11:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:11:39] Okay.
Camille Johnson [04:11:39] And I think I had heard of Mormon stories, like, through passing, but never really, like, knew what it was. I just knew it was evil.
John Dehlin [04:11:47] Is that what you were told?
Camille Johnson [04:11:48] Oh, yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:11:49] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [04:11:49] What?
Camille Johnson [04:11:50] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:11:50] Wait a minute.
Jared Johnson [04:11:51] Well, I. I always heard that Mormon stories was more of an anti Mormon story, you know, but. Yeah, that's. I. That was the perception that I had at least.
Margi Dehlin [04:12:01] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [04:12:01] Like, I don't even think I really knew any more than that. It was like an anti Mormon podcast. Which you stay away from.
John Dehlin [04:12:11] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [04:12:11] For the record. For the record, stay away from it.
John Dehlin [04:12:15] I'm offended.
Camille Johnson [04:12:18] Well, I think you have a pretty big following, so you're okay.
Jared Johnson [04:12:21] And we've binged since then, so.
Camille Johnson [04:12:24] And Jared's a donor now.
Jared Johnson [04:12:25] Yes.
John Dehlin [04:12:26] Oh, thank you. Okay. So you start going down this slippery slope of podcasting. Why? What were you. What were you seeking?
Camille Johnson [04:12:37] I think first it was just to hear people's stories and understanding. Like, it just goes back to, like, I just love people and I just love hearing, like, from the beginning life, you know, till till now. I actually listened to a podcast way before any of this called this is actually Actually Happening. And it's just like random stories of people's lives. And it was just interesting to hear, like, different religions and different, like, trauma and different, you know, things that have happened to these people and the outcomes of them. And so I just. I just loved that. And then I also loved Julie Hanks way of interviewing and her psychology and everything like that. So it was just kind of like a. Happened to Stumble across it and kind of fell in love with the idea of hearing people's stories of, like, why they are the way they are and where they're at.
John Dehlin [04:13:35] So what did that do to your struggle? Faith.
Camille Johnson [04:13:41] It emphasized, increased. It increased.
John Dehlin [04:13:44] It exacerbated.
Camille Johnson [04:13:45] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:13:46] Why? How?
Camille Johnson [04:13:47] Because I related so much to so many of the stories and kind of realize, like, wow, like there's some. Some things that maybe I don't believe.
John Dehlin [04:14:02] So do you want. Do you have any interest in seeing the things you kind of stop believing in or not want to go there?
Camille Johnson [04:14:08] I don't know if I could really, like, put that into like one answer. Because it's like topics, right. Like just different. Different things.
Margi Dehlin [04:14:20] And it feels like that resonance piece you resonating with, whether that is toward a topic or it's also lived.
Camille Johnson [04:14:31] Right.
Margi Dehlin [04:14:32] Like your lived experience is not. Am I saying that. That I'm kind of feeling that from you is your lived experience with your family, your lived experience of Sundays, your lived experience of how you engage lgbtq, you know, youth. Your lived experience that you're noticing these kind of flags as you're living. Kind of feeling like, wait, yeah, like I don't actually feel okay about this. This doesn't feel right to me. More and more garments or Right.
Camille Johnson [04:15:03] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:15:03] And I remember one thing she, I her mentioning to me is she wasn't feeling. She wasn't resonating with church anymore, being there at church anymore, but she started resonating, hearing about these people's stories and how amazing they were.
Margi Dehlin [04:15:16] That's right.
Camille Johnson [04:15:16] The beautiful stories. Like, you would just hear like these heart wrenching, heart love stories of people that have gone through these things and they're okay and they're amazing people.
Margi Dehlin [04:15:31] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:15:32] And are you talking about latter day struggles in Judah Hanks?
Camille Johnson [04:15:34] No, no. Mormon stories.
John Dehlin [04:15:35] Oh, okay. Okay.
Camille Johnson [04:15:36] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:15:36] So when just hearing people's epic journeys.
Camille Johnson [04:15:39] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:15:39] Started touching you.
Camille Johnson [04:15:40] Yeah. Yep. And I, I loved it. I loved listening.
Jared Johnson [04:15:45] And it was never when she would talk to me about it. It was never like an anti thing. It was more like, man, I listened to this amazing story today and we were more talking about the amazing stories, not, you know, something that was brought up about the history of the church or that it was more about, man, these are people. I'm not crazy. Like, yeah. These stories and these are real things that are happening to other people. And I started seeing a new. A new light in her about her more authentic self versus being forced to do something because she's told to do something. And she wasn't resonating with the church at the time, like I said.
Camille Johnson [04:16:19] But then she. Or to do it for everyone else, like to make sure our parents know that we're going to church.
Jared Johnson [04:16:26] Or she was doing it for herself
Camille Johnson [04:16:28] or checking all the boxes, doing my callings, doing all these things. But I was finding this inner, like, excitement and journey or joy that like. Like I can. It can be more than that.
Margi Dehlin [04:16:42] Yeah. It's like the birth of this new self.
Camille Johnson [04:16:45] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [04:16:46] That's emerging that you're. You're giving some attention and time to. And feeding her and noticing what brings her joy or what she really feels filled by.
Camille Johnson [04:16:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [04:16:58] How do you. Other people's stories end up making. It almost sounds like it was therapy for you to hear other people's stories. And obviously we're 20 years in. I haven't really ever talked to people about. I mean, they always say it helps me not feel alone, it helps me not feel crazy. And then they learn stuff that they didn't know. How is it helping you find yourself hearing other people's stories?
Camille Johnson [04:17:23] I think because I was letting myself kind of be more open to different ideas. But the connection, I think, is. Is huge. And the validating that. Because in the. In the church, you don't talk about the hard, like, the hard, like, oh, this really is hard for me or it bothers me or whatever. Like, you just don't. And so to hear other people like, yeah, this bothers me and I'm not okay with it. And this is what I've done, what I did to move past it or find something else that can fulfill that.
John Dehlin [04:17:57] Are these conversations you would have ever had with these couples in your ward?
Camille Johnson [04:18:00] No.
Jared Johnson [04:18:00] You know, no, because you don't talk about those things in the church. Right. You're told not to talk about those things. You're talked. You're told, you know, talk about the positive things. Right. You don't want to bring up issues, you know, you don't want to bring up, you know, anti stuff or maybe, you know, some issues with the history of the church. Right. That's just not something you're supposed to hear. And so to hear, you know, I started seeing a more of an open. We start having more of an open conversation about some of those things. That it wasn't negative, by all means. I didn't never looked at it as a negative thing. It was just more like.
Camille Johnson [04:18:36] And I feel like I love people. Right. And it almost even opened up more love and acceptance and compassion, which was crazy because I. I really do, like, love people. But it just gave this whole different, like, group of people that I could love from their experiences, if that makes sense.
Margi Dehlin [04:19:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:19:02] And. And Jared, you were never like, camille, that's an anti Mormon podcast. Stop watching it.
Jared Johnson [04:19:06] Oh, I was never, you know, because I wanted her to do whatever she felt was best for her. And I saw that it was starting to take a toll on her
Camille Johnson [04:19:17] before,
Jared Johnson [04:19:18] before and after and leading towards her not starting not to come to the church as often and see my kids not be there. And. And, you know, this is slowly starting to, again, put a lot of weight on me outside of the. All the church stuff that I was talking about, bishop roles and everything like that. Now I'm having more of a personal thing and, you know, the hypocrisy and, you know, now having a whole nother element on top of all the additional pressure and stress I'm feeling. And I just, I wanted her to kind of, you know, find whatever fulfilled her and was making her kind of find her own self and her own authentic self.
John Dehlin [04:19:57] Yeah, still, the way I would have envisioned it is she secretly is listening to Mormon stories. You find out and you're like, cut that out. That's apostate bad stuff. It's evil. You know, that's what the Mormon bishop in my mind would say to his wife.
Jared Johnson [04:20:13] Yeah, no, I definitely did not take that approach because one, I didn't know a lot about it and so I didn't really know if she really was looking, if it was more anti. And she would just. Because everything she would share with me was just, man, I listened to this amazing story today. She wouldn't say, oh, I listened to this and they were talking bad about Joseph Smith or about the. Of history of the church. She would only share with me these amazing experiences.
Camille Johnson [04:20:35] Yeah, that came later.
Jared Johnson [04:20:36] You know, the experiences that she had heard on Mormon Stories or some of these other podcasts. So it was definitely, you know, it was like, oh, that's great. Oh, man, that's great to hear that. People would go through that and, yeah, everything was okay and they weren't crazy.
Camille Johnson [04:20:51] So then we got to the Zane and Tina beard episode.
John Dehlin [04:20:57] Was that before his breakdown or after?
Jared Johnson [04:20:58] Before.
Camille Johnson [04:20:59] Was it before?
Jared Johnson [04:21:00] It was before. Right towards the end. Right around that same time.
Camille Johnson [04:21:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:21:04] So what happened?
Camille Johnson [04:21:07] Well, so I listened to this beautiful story of Zane and Tina and.
John Dehlin [04:21:15] And for those who didn't catch the beginning, Zane was serving as a Mormon bishop in Australia when he lost his faith completely. And he and his wife came on Mormon stories and Margi and I interviewed them while he was serving as a bishop, and he said, I'm going to be resigning and I'm going to leave the church, and I don't believe in it, but I'm a bishop now. And so you heard that interview and
Camille Johnson [04:21:38] connected with it so much, and especially to Tina as well, because her fear of letting her parents down and not doing what she's supposed to do. But yeah, so I. I really loved that episode. And I. I sent it to Jared on. I was like, just listen to this one.
John Dehlin [04:22:03] Why did you want him to listen to it?
Camille Johnson [04:22:05] Because I knew that he would relate.
Margi Dehlin [04:22:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:22:12] That maybe it would help him or maybe it would help him or just he'd like it. Both.
Camille Johnson [04:22:16] Both.
John Dehlin [04:22:17] Yeah. Okay.
Camille Johnson [04:22:17] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:22:18] So as a Mormon bishop trip in Eagle Mountain, you're watching Mormon Stories podcast. Was that the first you had watched?
Jared Johnson [04:22:24] That was the first I really watched and really heard, like, I heard about Mormon Stories, but I didn't really. Yeah, I was the first one I ever listened to. And this is probably around September, October ish timeframe.
Camille Johnson [04:22:37] Right.
Jared Johnson [04:22:38] And I listened to it and I was like, I immediately actually text Zane. I messaged him. I stalked him on Facebook. I messaged him and I just said, thank you. I said, thank you for sharing your story and being vulnerable. I can't tell you. I thought I was listening. I literally thought I was reading and listening to my own story. And I just connected with him on so many different levels. And he instantly messaged me back. I was like, camille, look. He messaged me back. And we went back and forth for several days, talked with each other. Other. And you're like, I'm a bishop.
John Dehlin [04:23:17] What do I do?
Jared Johnson [04:23:17] Yeah, I'm a bishop. And. Yeah. So I. Yeah, so that's kind of what happened. And I, again, just kind of building up a lot of this pressure and anxiety and I was having. And then we had just a incident at home where he punched a wall.
Camille Johnson [04:23:37] No, I'm just kidding.
John Dehlin [04:23:40] Your first breakdown, right?
Jared Johnson [04:23:41] This was my first breakdown. What happened in October, so. Of 2022. So basically just one evening after having a really stressful week. Work was stressful, and my daughter mentioned something about finances or she wanted to buy something. I honestly don't even remember. And that's not the point of it, but we basically just got in a huge argument and I blew up. And I was just kind of almost like out of control a little bit,
Camille Johnson [04:24:07] which was so out of character. Like. Like, it was almost like scary because we were all like, what is wrong with you? Like, why are you acting like this? Like he wasn't even making sense, like, the things that he was saying. And I think at one point, he turned to me and said, like, right, Camille, you agree with me? And I was like, I actually don't know what you're talking about. And I was like, and you're done. Like, we're done with this conversation.
John Dehlin [04:24:35] And we sent him to his room.
Camille Johnson [04:24:37] I sent him to his room. I said, you go to your room. You're grounded. No, I wouldn't. I was like, I don't want to talk about this in front of the kids right now.
John Dehlin [04:24:44] And was it like, a psychotic break?
Camille Johnson [04:24:46] It was.
Jared Johnson [04:24:46] It was.
Camille Johnson [04:24:47] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:24:47] I just had literally just a mental breakdown. I. I can't even explain it other than I physically had a breakdown. I was not mentally there. I was not emotionally there. Obviously, I wasn't spiritually there. And I just had a complete mental breakdown. And I. Again, you don't talk about mental health. I really didn't know what was happening. All I knew was all I could just. All that pressure and anxiety and feelings and complaints and everything that I had been dealing with for so long, especially those last couple years of being Bishop, especially that year of the last six months and going through so many much. Just felt like it just. All that weight on my shoulders just. I just felt that at that one moment.
Margi Dehlin [04:25:32] Yeah, you, like, imploded.
Jared Johnson [04:25:33] I just imploded. And I literally went to my room. I laid down.
Camille Johnson [04:25:37] Well, we went in. Yeah, you laid down. You literally, like, couldn't even move.
Jared Johnson [04:25:40] I couldn't even move. I physically could not move.
Camille Johnson [04:25:42] I said, I don't know what is going on right now. Something has to come off your plate, and I really think that you need to be released as Bishop and I,
Jared Johnson [04:25:51] obviously, we didn't want to talk about that moment. And I laid in bed for three days. I didn't get out of bed for three days.
John Dehlin [04:25:59] Three days.
Jared Johnson [04:26:01] I physically. Every time I'd get out of bed, I would have some sort of panic. Like, I'd go try to eat something or get some. Or go to the, you know, the restroom or something. I had a hurrying old belay back down.
Margi Dehlin [04:26:11] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:26:12] Because I physically could not move. Yeah, I physically could not move. It was.
John Dehlin [04:26:18] That's extreme.
Jared Johnson [04:26:19] It was. And so finally we had.
Requesting Release and the Emotional Fallout
Camille Johnson [04:26:21] I think we.
Jared Johnson [04:26:22] I think I did take you to the doctors, though. She took me to the doctors. He got me on some anxiety medication. He gave me some other stuff to help me calm down for those type of severe episodes. And then we finally. I was finally well enough to have an open Conversation with her about it, and she said, you need to text the stake president right now, and we need to meet with the stake president
John Dehlin [04:26:47] before he even told you. Did you know what was going on with him or did you have no idea? Idea.
Camille Johnson [04:26:51] I. I could tell it was a completely breakdown. Like a. Just mental overload.
John Dehlin [04:26:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:27:00] And so I text the stake president and he was leaving out of town, or, no, you're going to leave out of town that week. And I said, we need to. He said, well, let's just meet when you get back. Because he didn't understand the context of it. Right. Because we actually had a pretty good relationship and. And stuff like that. You know, I was doing the bishop thing. Right. I was doing everything I should be doing, and he always used me as an example. And so we met on a Wednesday, met with them, and I couldn't even talk. I was literally.
Margi Dehlin [04:27:30] Wow.
Jared Johnson [04:27:31] Just in tears. All the emotions was just coming. I don't think I've ever cried like that in my whole entire life. Every emotion in my being just came
Camille Johnson [04:27:41] out that you probably had held in
John Dehlin [04:27:45] for 20 years with your stake president. With my stake president saying, I need to be released.
Camille Johnson [04:27:52] And you couldn't even say that. Like, she actually couldn't say it. So, like, the stake president turned to me and said, what's going on? And I just said. I always said, we. I said, we need to be released. This isn't working.
Margi Dehlin [04:28:05] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:28:05] Wow. You said we.
Camille Johnson [04:28:07] I said we. And I think he was kind of like, okay, well, and it, you know, kind of. And you didn't say anything. So I was like, it's not working. He. You know, there's a lot going on.
John Dehlin [04:28:24] It's got to be. I don't know if the word humiliating or emasculating.
Margi Dehlin [04:28:28] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:28:28] Like, Mormon men don't. Mormon bishops don't go to their stake president and say, I can't do this anymore. Cause God called you, and God wanted you there. The first presidency signed your calling letter, and the Lord knows what he wanted from you. And we do hard things and pioneer ancestry and service and all the blessings. So, like, going and saying, I need out before the five years is up. I just don't think people think that that's even a thing. So I can see why you missed it.
Camille Johnson [04:29:01] Is that an option? Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:29:04] And so he gave us some guidance and counsel around, well, we need to pray about it. We need to think about it. And Camille mentioned, you know, I think we're done. But then he kept encouraging us to really make sure that was the right decision for us.
Camille Johnson [04:29:15] Well, and then he, he offered counseling.
Jared Johnson [04:29:17] He offered counseling.
Camille Johnson [04:29:18] He said, well, you know that bishops have free counseling, right? And I was like, what? No, I didn't know that.
Jared Johnson [04:29:23] Yeah, I didn't know that either.
Camille Johnson [04:29:25] Good.
Margi Dehlin [04:29:25] Cheers.
Camille Johnson [04:29:25] Oh, I'm like, that could have been helpful like two years ago, but yeah, that wasn't like, you know, brought to our attention at any point.
Jared Johnson [04:29:34] So we told him that she was leaving out of town. He's like, okay, go out of town. And then when you get back, let's have a discussion again, no.
Camille Johnson [04:29:42] And I said no.
Jared Johnson [04:29:44] And she said, I said no. But then I was like, you know, let's, let's at least respect his counsel, basically, and let's talk about it.
Camille Johnson [04:29:54] And then he said, well, I just want to make sure that if you get released that you would. That you will be prepared for what people will say about you. And like, that was like, not what I thought he was going to say. Like, it totally caught me off guard because I was like, that's what we're concerned about.
John Dehlin [04:30:17] So there's different ways to parse that. One is that he's genuinely worried about your reputation, that people will gossip and say he must have had a porn problem or an affair or couldn't hack it. That's one. The other is he was worried about how it would look for the church, for him, for the ward, for the stake, the headaches. And he was putting that on you because of the inconvenience on him. I guess you wouldn't be able to know what his motives are.
Margi Dehlin [04:30:41] No.
Jared Johnson [04:30:41] And one thing I will say about that, he was one of the most nicest men, most genuine and sincere men. And I don't think, I think he was just. That's what the church culture is, the reality. That's just what the church says, that how you should react to things. Just like the response that I was giving to. In counseling people with. Yeah, you know, and he definitely was genuine about it, but he obviously wanted to make sure that it was the best decision, that we weren't making such a, you know, abrupt decision about it, so.
John Dehlin [04:31:11] Because, I mean, it is potentially torpedoing your fast track future as a power couple. Right. Am I wrong? Because, I mean, did you have visions of being a mission president someday or a stake president someday or even a general authority someday?
Camille Johnson [04:31:28] I mean, his patriarchal blessing said that, that you would have high calling.
Jared Johnson [04:31:31] And also everybody always kind of made little comments here and there. I mean, we even had a mission and, excuse me, a temple president pull Us aside after a session and asked me if I was a bishop, and I said no. He's like, well, you will be, and you're going to be a mission president. You're going to do great things in the church. Right. And so I always had little comments here and there. Maybe because we looked apart, maybe because they were feeding in my ego a little bit. I don't know. But so obviously in your back of your mind, like, sure, I would love to become a mission president, because that would be the next step. Right. And I did love my mission. Right. And that's the experience I had. And so it was, like I said, it was 20 years of mixed emotions all coming out at that time. And we took a step back and we walked away from that meeting. And she left out of town. We came back and we talked about it for a couple days.
Camille Johnson [04:32:22] Really?
Jared Johnson [04:32:22] Didn't we try to avoid it a little bit? We finally just talked about it. And, you know, that weekend, I actually didn't get back in contact with my bishop. He asked me how I was doing. I said it was okay or the stake president. But then that weekend, this may have been like a week or two later, I was in Mesquite for my son's football tournament. And one of the nights he was out with his friends. He was planning on staying over at one of his friends, hotel, you know, and the parents and stuff like that. And I had. I was just sitting there in the truck, in my truck in the parking lot. And I had just another mental breakdown. I was getting text messages from ward members. I was getting text messages, just church. Normal church stuff, callings. Like, I was trying to get away for a minute. They obviously didn't know what was going on. Nobody knew. Not even my counselors knew. But all the church stuff kept going.
Camille Johnson [04:33:17] So it's almost like you've made a decision in your mind, like, okay, I'm done. But then it's still coming at you, you know, because it's not like, okay, you're released. Like, no, we need to find someone to replace you. And so you're gonna have to hold on for a little while. Yeah. And so I think that was, like, the other pressure that was, like, building on you.
Jared Johnson [04:33:33] Yep. And it just kept coming at me. And I just had another nervous breakdown, which was, again, I'd never experienced anything like that up to those two episodes. And I fit, like, once again, I physically could not move in my truck. I had, you know, and so I called her and I said this. What's going on? Just Stay on the phone with me. And I didn't have, like any suicidal thoughts or anything like that, but it was more just. Just I didn't know how to deal with it. I didn't know how to deal with the stress and anxiety and that I was feeling.
Margi Dehlin [04:34:05] Were you having physiological, like, was it a panic attack?
Camille Johnson [04:34:08] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [04:34:09] Your heart racing or a lot of.
Jared Johnson [04:34:12] And I was afraid to even drive because I was having such a bad panic attack.
Margi Dehlin [04:34:15] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [04:34:15] Like you thought you might die.
Jared Johnson [04:34:17] Yeah, I literally thought I was gonna die.
Margi Dehlin [04:34:18] Yeah, that's right.
John Dehlin [04:34:19] And so, like, a Mormon bishop is stuck in his truck in Mesquite, Nevada, calling his wife, saying, please don't, you know, please stay on the phone with me.
Jared Johnson [04:34:27] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [04:34:27] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:34:28] What was that like for you?
Camille Johnson [04:34:29] Scary.
John Dehlin [04:34:30] Why? How?
Camille Johnson [04:34:31] Well, I just felt so bad for
Jared Johnson [04:34:33] him and she was far away from.
Camille Johnson [04:34:34] And I. I was. Yeah, I wasn't there. And so just seeing someone that's like so confident all the time and just, you know, amazing. Like, just feeling that way and feeling helpless. So, yeah, it was scary.
John Dehlin [04:34:53] So. Man.
Jared Johnson [04:34:56] So we got back and I end up texting my bishop, or excuse my stake president. The next day. I had one more day of escape. Finally, she stayed on the phone thing until I got to the hotel after, like a couple hours.
Camille Johnson [04:35:09] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:35:10] Finally went to the hotel. And the next day I texted the stake president and said, I made my decision and I need to be released. And let's talk. He said, okay, let's talk. We scheduled the time to speak and we went in the next week and said, okay. And, you know, he said, it's going to take some time. Obviously, we got to go through the process. We got to go through. So just keep doing what you can do. And. And you know, it could take a couple weeks, it could take a month. And I said, well, do we at least have some type of a time frame? And he said, well, we'll just do it as quickly as possible. And. Yeah, so that was the beginning of November or middle November. And I got released December 17th of 2022.
Margi Dehlin [04:35:58] Okay.
Jared Johnson [04:35:59] So about a month later.
John Dehlin [04:36:01] So as I'm looking through your outline, Camille, you have like a list of crisis points. And I just. I thought I'd read them. Is that okay?
Camille Johnson [04:36:15] Yeah, go for it.
John Dehlin [04:36:17] So shelf grows. Mostly cultural issues. Never question the dark the doctrine due to the gift of faith. Frustrated with male dominated leadership roles. Studied the church handbook more than scriptures. Who is that? Is that you or me? You did?
Camille Johnson [04:36:36] Yes. That was. That was what we were taught in our stake, to read the handbook like non stop.
Jared Johnson [04:36:44] Know the handbook front to back page, page, page. Every single page of was a strong.
Camille Johnson [04:36:51] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:36:51] Emphasis.
John Dehlin [04:36:52] Moms are studying the church.
Camille Johnson [04:36:54] No, it was because of.
Jared Johnson [04:36:55] She was in a state calling.
Margi Dehlin [04:36:58] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [04:36:58] So like when we'd have meetings and stuff like that was like our opening. Like thoughts were like from the handbook.
John Dehlin [04:37:03] Okay. Planned youth activities but saw they didn't meet the deeper needs of youth like mental health and family issues. Advocated for simpler events, allowing genes at dances. But ideas were minimized. Exhausted by over the top activities that took you away from your family. Decorated your friend's room during a cancer diagnosis and was told what?
Camille Johnson [04:37:27] That it was inappropriate by.
John Dehlin [04:37:29] By who?
Camille Johnson [04:37:30] That it was a really society president at the time.
John Dehlin [04:37:33] How could that be inappropriate?
Jared Johnson [04:37:36] Well, because she wanted it to go through the release society president and she wanted to go through the church and not do it basically on her own. In other words, channels. Yeah.
Camille Johnson [04:37:47] So I had this thing where like I didn't like the sign up lists that would go around in really society. So fair because I'm not good at cooking. Like I don't want to make anyone a meal. And so I really like worked on being observant and using my talents and gifts to serve the women in my ward. And it started this thing. I love decorating and staging homes. I was doing that for work on the side for Jared's real estate business. And I, I would decorate spaces for women that were going through hard, hard things. And I would actually get money from people. I would reach out to friends and their families and say, hey, I'm going to redo their bedroom. You know, they're going through a divorce. Let's like create this space. And so it was kind of something I had done over the years. And then when my friend got diagnosed with cancer, she had, you know, these six boys and never had her own like girly space. And so when she went in for surgery for during her cancer, I asked her husband if like we could go in and like beautify her room so that she could have a place to.
Jared Johnson [04:39:04] She was bedridden to heal.
Camille Johnson [04:39:06] And so. And the beautiful thing is that people did trust me with their money and I did raise a lot of money for this specific thing. And everyone was so amazing to help. We painted, we, you know, got new furniture and we, you know, cleaned their house and all these things. And in the middle of it, the really society president had come up to me and said, I just feel like this is inappropriate because, you know, it needs to go through the release society and the ward. And I said, well, but it's not the war. Like, I've reached out to, like, friends and family that aren't even in our ward. Like, this is, like, the way that I want to serve. And she just said, well, what if she passes away? Then that's not worth, like, their money to put into this project. And I just said, but. But it is, because this is a place for her, you know? And she ended up dying in that room. And her husband told me later that that was one of the most kindest things anyone had done for her to have that space of her own. That was beautiful.
Margi Dehlin [04:40:14] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [04:40:15] So, yeah, that crushed me when I was, like, told that the way that I wanted to serve wasn't okay. So.
Margi Dehlin [04:40:26] Yep.
John Dehlin [04:40:27] I'm so sorry. Just a couple more. You have struggled with rules around modesty, especially when your daughter wanted a second piercing, meaning in the ear, right?
Camille Johnson [04:40:39] Yeah. Yeah. Now look at me. Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:40:43] But the church forbade that for decades.
Camille Johnson [04:40:45] And this was before, because then the. The pamphlet changed, and then all of
John Dehlin [04:40:49] a sudden, they were loud again.
Camille Johnson [04:40:50] It was crazy. So I feel like I'm just ahead of the church a little bit. Like, I keep doing these things. I start wearing tank tops, and then they change the garment. Anyways. My daughter loved the styling of piercings. And she would just beg, please, please, can I get. Can I just get my second piercings? And I was just like, no, let's just wait. And she was like, why? Why does it matter? And I was like, I don't know. Because it's what we do or don't do. We just don't do that. And she said something so profound. She said, me getting a piercing has nothing to do with anybody else. And I said, let's go.
Jared Johnson [04:41:31] And so she went with her.
Camille Johnson [04:41:32] So I went with her, and we both got our second piercings. And I was scared. And she was like, why are you so scared?
John Dehlin [04:41:37] I'm like, well, because Prophet and president Gordon Behinqui announced a second piercing over general conference pulpit.
Jared Johnson [04:41:44] And this is when I was still. Was bishop. So.
Camille Johnson [04:41:47] Oh, my gosh. I was.
Jared Johnson [04:41:47] So here's the bishop's wife, the second parish saint.
Camille Johnson [04:41:49] I was like, what if someone sees it? And then. Yeah, now we're. Anyways.
John Dehlin [04:41:53] Yeah, okay. And then you've got kids didn't want to attend church. You ended up attending alone. Jared's mental breakdown and him being released and then the last thing. We'll just go here. Felt unsupported by leadership. And I think your friends. After Jared's release, no one asked how you were doing. Do you Want to talk about that?
Camille Johnson [04:42:15] Yeah, that's pretty much it.
John Dehlin [04:42:18] Like, so you serve people for years, you live in this area for years, you've got all these besties you're traveling around the world with, and what happens?
Camille Johnson [04:42:27] No one said anything.
Jared Johnson [04:42:29] Yeah. Not even. I didn't have.
John Dehlin [04:42:30] You didn't resign or like.
Camille Johnson [04:42:33] No.
Jared Johnson [04:42:33] So I got released. I tried to go back to church a few times.
Camille Johnson [04:42:37] Well, wait real quick. So the day you got released, you know, they called the new bishopric to come sit up and, like, he comes and sits down with us, which was, like, the first time that all of us.
Jared Johnson [04:42:47] Eight years, I've sat with my family.
Margi Dehlin [04:42:49] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:42:49] Did they honor you by having you speak and.
Jared Johnson [04:42:51] No.
John Dehlin [04:42:52] No what?
Camille Johnson [04:42:53] Nothing.
John Dehlin [04:42:54] Whenever a bishop's released, they have the new bishop come up to the stand, and the old bishop, the parting bishop, sends love messages to the ward and gives a final testimony. Then the new bishop and their wives. Why didn't you get that?
Jared Johnson [04:43:08] I don't know if it was because of the state of mind I was
Margi Dehlin [04:43:11] in or because you asked.
Jared Johnson [04:43:13] Maybe because I asked. I don't recall ever saying. I know she didn't want to say anything. I don't remember saying. I don't want to say anything. But what was interesting is when I got released, we were sitting on the front row in the kind of the gym section, the cultural hall. And after we got released, our family just sat there, and not one person came up to us.
Camille Johnson [04:43:34] So we just. We stood up.
John Dehlin [04:43:35] Up.
Jared Johnson [04:43:36] We stood up after. Like, you. We expected people to come up to you and say, thank you for your service, and I'm okay.
Camille Johnson [04:43:42] Like, what's going on?
Jared Johnson [04:43:43] And I'm not blaming anybody.
John Dehlin [04:43:44] Super weird.
Margi Dehlin [04:43:46] Were your friends that you used to. That you were traveling with for, or were they in your ward?
Camille Johnson [04:43:52] A couple of them had moved out. There was a few, but. Yeah, not a lot of them.
Jared Johnson [04:43:55] Not a lot of them. But you would just think in general.
Margi Dehlin [04:43:58] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:43:58] And it's not like I. Oh, I need to be. I expected that. It's not like something like, oh, I wanted that. But you kind of. Like, that's just. Kind of what happens when a bishop gets released is you have the ward come up to you and thank you for your service. Are you okay? We literally sat. I think we sat there for a minute.
Camille Johnson [04:44:14] Just. Yeah, like, just kind of waiting, like,
Jared Johnson [04:44:16] if anybody came up to us. And we literally sat there. Next thing we know, everybody had gone out to their classes, everybody had left. So we just stood up instead of
Camille Johnson [04:44:24] going to class, and I was bawling she was bawling, like, I was just so heartbroken in a way.
John Dehlin [04:44:33] What were you feeling?
Camille Johnson [04:44:34] I, I, I don't want to say I was embarrassed, but I was like, I don't, I don't know how to explain it.
Margi Dehlin [04:44:43] Disappointed.
Camille Johnson [04:44:43] Disappointed, yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:44:46] So we went home as a family right after sacrament, and we, we probably
Camille Johnson [04:44:50] went out to lunch or something.
Jared Johnson [04:44:53] But yeah, because food.
Camille Johnson [04:44:54] Yeah, he need the food.
Jared Johnson [04:44:56] He just went home. And it's not like you had broken
John Dehlin [04:45:00] a commandment or like apostatized or like spoken up in church or fought with the leader.
Jared Johnson [04:45:07] Well, there and then after that, obviously. And I had tried, like I said, I had tried going back to church a few times after that, but every time I stepped into the building, I started having panic attacks.
John Dehlin [04:45:18] Did you lost your faith by that point or not yet?
Jared Johnson [04:45:20] No, not all together. I was just feeling, going through, through more of the emotional stage of it. But we then started hearing a lot of rumors that were starting to spread that I had had an affair, that I was stealing money from the church, that I was doing pretty much everything. We started hearing all these rumors about all this stuff.
John Dehlin [04:45:42] So your reputation smeared on top of all this.
Jared Johnson [04:45:45] So I just, we, I specifically told Camille, like, I literally physically can't go back to church right now. And then I started listening more to Mormon stories and man, I can same thing with Camille. I started really resonating with people and their stories. And I start, you know, I listened to the Missouri, the bishop, Mississippi, Mississippi, that, you know, from the pulpit, that he basically resigned from the pulpit. And I started listening and really hearing about all these amazing kind of what Camille already shared, these amazing stories of people. And I'm like, wow, it's okay. Everything will be okay. And I started really focusing on realizing why is the church focusing so much on eternal life? They're so worried about living for the future instead of living in the moment. And at that point in time, I started realizing that I was not living in the moment. And that was a kind of a recommitment that I made that, that my family is the most important thing. I hope that I love them. I hope that we are together after, if that's what it's about. I don't know. And I started really, when people say, I know that started really. Do people really know? And I was like, we. I think it's more, I, I, for me, though, it's a hope and it's a, and, and just a lot of things. I started, I had time to really reflect. I had time to reflect. I had up to that point point, I never had time to reflect because I was so busy. And I just took the time to really process, process everything, all the emotions and the feelings and my beliefs.
Camille Johnson [04:47:22] And,
Jared Johnson [04:47:25] you know, obviously I started thinking more, you know, listening more to different podcasts and stuff like that, and things would come up. And so I started looking into that and, you know, and right now my. My faith is more based off of just love and hope and living in the moment and I don't have to worry about, you know, are we going to make it to the celestial kingdom or what's glory? Am I going to live with this person? I'm like, everything will be okay. Because if God really does love us, who we are, he knows our. If he does really know our hearts and our intentions, and that's okay, and that everything will be okay. And, you know, we just. It's just slowly after having that open conversation with each other, we started having a more of a Open conversation with each other. More.
Camille Johnson [04:48:14] Yeah. We were more connected with each other than we had ever been in our whole marriage.
Jared Johnson [04:48:19] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [04:48:20] Because it was finally like being honest about things like, specifically, like, garments. Like, yeah, I'm not wearing my garments anymore. I. I don't feel like, like it's giving me what. What it's supposed to or, you know, wasn't resonating. Wasn't resonating. And. And I remember we were on a hike and. And you said, yeah. And you took your garments off.
Jared Johnson [04:48:41] Yeah, I'm like, well, the next day.
Camille Johnson [04:48:42] So.
Jared Johnson [04:48:43] Yeah. And it was just like one thing. Like, we were more focused on us and our family and we found purpose around that. Not just because of the churches telling you where to find your purpose and how your faith should be and how you should live. And the, you know, you can live a certain way or you can make it to heaven if you do this and all the ifs and buts about everything. You can go to the temple. You're allowed to go to the temple if you pay your tithing a certain way and a certain amount and all that. Just started really thinking about, it's like, why can't we all just be based off of love and just be there for everybody and just try to be the best versions of ourselves and serve one another and the love one another and not how the church is telling
Camille Johnson [04:49:27] you and serve in the way that you can serve with your talents and your gifts.
Jared Johnson [04:49:32] Yeah. So that was kind of the beginning of the deconstruction. So.
Leaving the Church and Life After
John Dehlin [04:49:41] So there are always. There are the two, Two main stereotypes of People who leave the church by believing members are, number one, they got offended, and number two, they wanted to sin. So if y' all were to address those two common scapegoats that believing members want to say, was it that. Was it that you got offended or was it sin? Which Was it sin or offense or both? Which one?
Jared Johnson [04:50:06] I know this is, though. This might be hard for people to acknowledge, you know, active, believing members, but it was neither. It was. It just wasn't resonating with us anymore. It wasn't fulfilling what we were getting out of the church anymore. We would. It just felt empty. And we started realizing. I started to realize that I can be more genuine, authentic with my relationships and with people and our family. Not because the church tells you to do that, but more because I want to do that. And I never lived that way. It was always because the church told you to live and do things a certain way, certain at certain times. And that's just always how I lived. And I'm like, wow, I just felt liberated. I've really felt liberated. And I was kind of excitement. And it's okay to not have an unknown future of what could happen in the future. It was kind of. We both just kind of like, this is. Yeah, we're okay with this.
Margi Dehlin [04:51:09] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [04:51:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:51:11] How about for you, Camille?
Camille Johnson [04:51:12] Yeah, I wanted to sin.
Margi Dehlin [04:51:16] I'm all about this.
Camille Johnson [04:51:17] All about it. No, not at all. I mean, that was, like, way not even cross our minds. Like, it, it's so much more than that. And I, I definitely feel the connection of just love and being there for my family, so. And it didn't work for us.
John Dehlin [04:51:42] What if somebody were to say, okay, you got an anti Mormon literature. Okay, Mormon stories isn't anti Mormon literature, but anti Mormon podcasts. And that's what led you out. What if people wanted to blame it on that? What would you say?
Camille Johnson [04:51:55] I would say, no, it wasn't anything that I. Well, I don't know. That's a hard, hard thing to say, because I, I, I, I do think it, like, opens up your mind to, like, a different perspective.
John Dehlin [04:52:09] It gets you out of the bubble.
Camille Johnson [04:52:10] It gets you out of the bubble and the reality of things and really diving into people's stories and what they've gone through, and I, I don't know, I just feel like that, yeah, maybe that did lead me away because I wanted to be able to love more. So.
Jared Johnson [04:52:27] Yeah, and the church doesn't allow you to love that way, because if they're not in, they're not in, they're out. Right. And you gotta, you know. And so we kind of just took some time to really figure out, like, where are we at? And like, you know what? It's okay to be unknown. We're still going through that. We're still trying to figure that. And that's okay.
Camille Johnson [04:52:48] Yeah, this is fresh.
Jared Johnson [04:52:49] This is fresh.
Margi Dehlin [04:52:51] You also moved from that neighborhood.
John Dehlin [04:52:55] Is that partly because you felt like, abandoned?
Camille Johnson [04:52:58] Oh, yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:52:59] Yeah. It was like we needed to get out. And it was interesting when we would tell people, like the bishop reached out to me after like four or six months, the new bishop would say, hey, how you're doing? Good. Just let you know we bought a property a lot over in the ranches, which is a different part of Eagle Mountain, and we're going to be moving. He's like, yeah, I think that would actually be a good idea for you and your family to move.
John Dehlin [04:53:20] They totally want you to get out of there. That was same with us. That's literally what he said.
Camille Johnson [04:53:24] I'm.
Jared Johnson [04:53:24] I was like, did he just release
John Dehlin [04:53:26] after I communicated every time I saw a ward member, they're like, I hear you're moving. When are you moving?
Jared Johnson [04:53:31] Yep, just let me know.
Camille Johnson [04:53:32] That would be really good for you and your family. Yeah, let us know so we can.
Jared Johnson [04:53:35] Everybody was saying that to us. I'm like, okay, well, I guess we need to move. So I bought a property.
John Dehlin [04:53:40] But wait, how many of those friends that you traveled the world with came up to you and said, tell us what happened. How are you?
Margi Dehlin [04:53:47] How are you doing?
John Dehlin [04:53:48] How are you doing? What was the cause like? Help us understand how we.
Camille Johnson [04:53:53] Zero.
Margi Dehlin [04:53:54] I think it doesn't even have to be a direct, you know, what happened. Even just an expression. Care of, just, how are you? I've been worried about you. How can I show up for you? I'd love to talk with you about how things be done.
John Dehlin [04:54:09] How do you explain that? How do you explain. I call it the Cricket effect. The same thing happened to us. We were in a Ward for 12 years. I get excommunicated. Relationships are done. Nobody wants to know why.
Jared Johnson [04:54:19] I think it's avoid it potentially being an awkward. Or maybe they don't want to know if something did happen. I think that was a big thing with my family. They knew I got released, but we didn't really tell anybody why.
John Dehlin [04:54:31] So they're just respecting your privacy.
Jared Johnson [04:54:33] Maybe respecting our privacy, but you also allow them. I even got an email from a member of our ward who was one of those complainers. And she even said, you know, if you are not letting everybody Know why you got released then. You are allowing people's minds to wander and make their own assumptions.
John Dehlin [04:54:53] So you deserve it.
Jared Johnson [04:54:54] Yeah. And so. Yeah. So it was just like, this is.
Camille Johnson [04:55:00] Yeah, that was bizarre. So it was like Twilight Zone. Like, it was almost, like, unreal. Like, we just felt so alone.
Jared Johnson [04:55:09] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [04:55:09] And like. Like invisible.
Jared Johnson [04:55:12] Yeah, that's a perfect word.
Margi Dehlin [04:55:13] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:55:14] He felt invisible.
John Dehlin [04:55:15] And after you had given so much for so long to these people.
Camille Johnson [04:55:19] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:55:20] Yeah. So, yeah, I bought a piece of land over Nagel Mountain. We were planning on building. I don't know if you want to. You know, there are some things that.
John Dehlin [04:55:27] It was too close to. Tim Ballad.
Margi Dehlin [04:55:29] Yeah. Okay.
Jared Johnson [04:55:29] Thank you. We told you that already. So we found out there was. This is all going on.
John Dehlin [04:55:33] You didn't want to enter into the fire.
Jared Johnson [04:55:37] Yeah. All that was going on.
Camille Johnson [04:55:38] Like, no one would, like, notice us if everyone was worried about Tim Ballard.
Jared Johnson [04:55:41] Yeah. And so he was.
John Dehlin [04:55:42] That ward's a mess.
Jared Johnson [04:55:43] Yeah, we heard the ward is a mess. She reached out. She knew some people in that ward, and. And we actually, at that time, were thinking that maybe a new start. We could go back to church. It kind of crossed our mind maybe a little bit. But during that time, we started hearing a bunch of this. I'm always looking at real estate. I found this property in Draper, and we're just. Just like, let's just completely move out.
Camille Johnson [04:56:05] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:56:05] So, yeah, we live in Draper now. And it's been the most amazing six or seven months. Like I said, it's quiet. We get to be our own selves. We get to enjoy each other and, you know, be more authentic with each other. And our kids. And our kids love being there, and they're. They're more open to things, and they don't feel judged. They're not projects. Like, everybody would come up to me, and they're really, you know, young women's present, young men. Counselor would come up and say, you know, they would actually say that to me while I was. Bishop Reagan's our project. Like, that's my daughter. Like, no, she's not. Like, Kay. I'm gonna get Kay to come back at church. He's our next project. I'm like, really? Is that what the church is? We're all projects if they're not doing exactly what the church tells you?
Margi Dehlin [04:56:50] And the answer is yes.
Camille Johnson [04:56:51] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:56:52] And so we just. Yeah, we're just really enjoying where we're living and. And where we're at, and it's been. It's been great.
John Dehlin [04:57:00] So your smiles are disturbing. And here's why we're taught wickedness never was happiness. And yet y' all seem happier. So let me just ask Jared, your mental health better or worse after leaving the church?
Jared Johnson [04:57:15] Better. 100 times better.
John Dehlin [04:57:16] Okay.
Jared Johnson [04:57:17] Am I still working through it? Yes. Do I still have things I need to, you know, work on and do I to.
Camille Johnson [04:57:23] Need.
Jared Johnson [04:57:23] Need to get some in my still again? Working through that, absolutely. But the pressure and just the release and the liberating feeling around not feeling that stress and anxiety that I was feeling and I was building up. My mental health is much. It's getting better.
John Dehlin [04:57:40] Good. Camille. Mental health, way better after leaving. How do you explain that?
Camille Johnson [04:57:48] It's kind of the same thing, like, not being as busy and not as stressed.
Jared Johnson [04:57:54] Sunday's the best day in our family. We're together.
Camille Johnson [04:57:57] We love Sundays.
Margi Dehlin [04:57:59] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [04:58:00] It's so amazing. And it's actually one of, like, the most spiritual days with our, you know, when we're all together and go on hikes and. Yeah. So. And obviously, mental health is a constant struggle and work in progress, so I can't say 100%, like, oh, you'll. Your depression will be gone if you leave the church. That's not true. I. I think it's more. You're more aware of what's going on and things that you can do to. To help.
Margi Dehlin [04:58:31] Yeah. Yeah. And it. I do think, too, it's so effortful oftentimes to remove yourself from all the things and the entanglements of Mormonism. Family being really one of the major ones.
Camille Johnson [04:58:47] Right.
Margi Dehlin [04:58:47] Wherever you go, you can change. Where you live, you can change. Right. But you can't really change extended family and how, you know, so mental health is kind of a tricky thing to just kind of say, is it unilaterally better? It's like, well, this is an effortful process, as it turns out.
Camille Johnson [04:59:05] Right.
Jared Johnson [04:59:06] And that, like, I've mentioned a few times how the church always preaches like the church is the center of the planet. It's the core of the plan. But it was literally tearing our family apart. I truly believe now where we are at being outside of the church, it is now the center of our lives and the focus of our lives.
Margi Dehlin [04:59:24] So you're actually in alignment with your own values now.
Jared Johnson [04:59:26] Correct. And that's what we wanted in the church, and it wasn't happening in the church. It was, like I said, it was tearing it apart.
Margi Dehlin [04:59:34] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:59:35] And it's just amazing. You know, I'm not saying our life is perfect. Like, we have our struggles, we have issues still. And, you know, and but it's just in a different, more genuine and authentic way.
John Dehlin [04:59:49] So the levels of emotional intimacy and the quality of your relationship, better or worse?
Jared Johnson [04:59:54] Much better.
Camille Johnson [04:59:55] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [04:59:55] I'm like, oh, I can rub your back and your shoulder.
Margi Dehlin [04:59:58] Yeah.
John Dehlin [05:00:01] But you're. You're talking more, connecting more, sharing more as a couple.
Camille Johnson [05:00:06] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [05:00:06] And I'm still working through a lot of things because I am so. Still so busy in different ways. But. But, yeah. And, you know, like I said, leaving. It is not perfection. It's a process. It's progress.
Camille Johnson [05:00:19] Right.
Jared Johnson [05:00:19] And that's why I'm still trying to, you know, become the best version of myself and figure out more about where I'm at and. And I'm okay with that unknown. I'm okay with just living in the moment and trying to become better and having open conversations about our relationship and what I could do better and, you know, be a better dad and father and provider and, you know, and allowing her still to be, you know, be amazing and, you know, so.
Camille Johnson [05:00:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [05:00:45] What a beautiful story. Any final words? Either of you want to leave with our audience? Are y' all looking at other churches? Are you kind of done with churches for now? Like, anything you want to say to your family or friends as a clothes. Anything. Final advice, words of wisdom?
Camille Johnson [05:01:03] Go ahead.
Jared Johnson [05:01:04] You want me to share something first?
Margi Dehlin [05:01:05] Yeah.
Jared Johnson [05:01:05] Okay. So just kind of going back to my intro. I know this might be a shock and maybe sensitive.
John Dehlin [05:01:16] Truth is, they probably won't watch.
Jared Johnson [05:01:17] Okay.
John Dehlin [05:01:18] Right. I mean, that's how it usually is. They might.
Jared Johnson [05:01:21] Okay.
John Dehlin [05:01:21] But usually they won't.
Jared Johnson [05:01:23] Yeah. Well, if they do, I just want them to know that I still love them. I feel like I'm able to be more authentic. I feel like I'm still the same person. I'm just have a different way and a different perspective of what's important in my life and the priorities of my life. And, you know, hopefully this story can resonate with some bishops that are maybe feeling that same way and feeling the pressure and anxiety and the mental health that is put on bishops and stake presidents or let alone, like I said, any leaders, and that they can be more open about it, especially the men, and that they can be open to having open conversations to get the help that they need for whatever solution they're looking for. Not necessarily encouraging to go down the same path I went down. I do not want this to impose upon anybody, change anybody's beliefs or opinions, but do whatever they need to do to make sure they are taken care of and that they have control of their mental health. And they do whatever is going to help them serve and be the best versions of themselves.
Camille Johnson [05:02:32] Beautiful. Yeah, that's really good. I don't know. I. I kind of have a different ending. I think if anyone. If the church hears this, like, I think they need to maybe recognize the. The pain and. And the struggles that bishops are going through and help, because it's not okay for these men to feel this way and feel the pressure of, you know, the constant nagging and helping and serving and.
Margi Dehlin [05:03:10] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [05:03:11] I don't know if that.
Margi Dehlin [05:03:13] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [05:03:14] But. Yeah, but I just love everyone. I love everyone's story and.
Jared Johnson [05:03:21] Yeah.
John Dehlin [05:03:23] Yeah. With $250 billion, the church could train their bishops. They could tell them they have mental health services, support from the beginning, not when it reaches a crisis. They could educate them and make them aware, provide them with support, provide them with resources, mentors all the way along. Like, this doesn't have to happen. They have the money to fix this problem. I think the problem is if they acknowledge their problems, then they probably worry about spreading the problems to other people. So they must be intentionally not providing the information and the training and the support and the services, because then that would send the message that there was something wrong.
Jared Johnson [05:04:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [05:04:10] It needed services and support for.
Jared Johnson [05:04:12] Yeah.
John Dehlin [05:04:13] Which is unethical, I think that's what you're saying.
Camille Johnson [05:04:15] Right? Yeah.
John Dehlin [05:04:16] Yeah, sure.
Jared Johnson [05:04:17] And I also appreciate you guys allowing us to come on here. I know I mentioned this before, but, like, I know this was a big step for me in my journey and being able to accept where I'm at, and that's okay. And that I'm not, you know, crazy and that I'm still trying to, you know, work on some things personally and emotionally, and my mental health. And I know this was a big step in that. In the right direction. So thank you for allowing us to come on here and share our story.
Camille Johnson [05:04:45] It is.
Margi Dehlin [05:04:45] It is always amazing to witness people prioritize their own mental health and the care of themselves. Like, you deserve to have good care, both of you, and receive good love, not just give it.
Jared Johnson [05:05:02] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [05:05:02] Yeah.
Camille Johnson [05:05:03] Thank you.
Jared Johnson [05:05:03] Yeah, thanks. That's amazing.
Reflections and Closing Thoughts
John Dehlin [05:05:06] All right. Camille and Jared Johnson, keeping up with the Johnson now. It's just now you're just making it harder. How are any of us supposed to keep up?
Jared Johnson [05:05:16] I wouldn't say that. We like our own little quiet. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [05:05:21] They're like, no. How about a bubble of our own?
Camille Johnson [05:05:24] We get to make it.
John Dehlin [05:05:27] No. Thank you for your courage, for sharing your story on Mormon stories. We hope you'll stay in touch. We hope you'll come back. And most importantly, we appreciate your gift to all of us, and we wish you just all the. All the best.
Jared Johnson [05:05:43] Thank you.
John Dehlin [05:05:43] Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on.
Jared Johnson [05:05:46] Thank you very much.
Camille Johnson [05:05:46] Thanks.
John Dehlin [05:05:47] Yeah. Margi, thanks for being here.
Margi Dehlin [05:05:49] Yeah, I'm so glad I was.
John Dehlin [05:05:51] Yeah. And just to end, thanks to all of you who make this possible. Donors are what support the Mormon Stories podcast. So if you are a donor, we have about 1500. We have hundreds of thousands of listeners and viewers and about 1500 people every year who actually donate. So it's weird, but if you're a donor, thank you for making this possible. We lose donors all the time, and if we don't replace them, we have to stop doing what we do. So if you value what we do and you want to see it continue, it's really easy. You go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor, and we'll keep doing what we do. Thanks to Julia and Gerardo and Maven and Brooklyn, all the staff at the Open Storage foundation, along with. With Margi and co host. We couldn't do it without you. And our board of directors also keeps us on a good path, so thanks to them as well. We Love your feedback. MormonStoriesMail.com is where you can write us. We have an application process, a new application process for becoming a guest on Mormon Stories. Jared, you filled that out. That's how we heard about you. Is that right?
Jared Johnson [05:07:06] Yeah. I'd made a few comments on social media about a couple of stories that I resonated with and said, oh, man, that was amazing. Thank you. And I just felt like I just had a moment that I just felt like I needed to do it and it was the right step for me.
Margi Dehlin [05:07:21] I saw his video.
Jared Johnson [05:07:22] Yeah.
John Dehlin [05:07:23] So if you want to be a guest or at least be considered, we can't take everyone. It all has to do with, you know, timing and topic and your application and what's going on. But if you go to MormonStories.org, scroll down, you'll find the application button. Click on it. Go through the process. We'd love to evaluate you as a fit for Mormon Stories podcast. Please subscribe on YouTube, on Facebook, on Instagram, on TikTok. That helps with the algorithms and it helps us grow. And we love your comments here and in email as well. So hope you all enjoyed today's episode. We're always looking for people we love, everyday Mormons. We want to do that. We love in it to win it. Hyper Achieving Mormons. And we have a whole other set of topics we're looking to do panels on or individual stories. And that's all part of the application process. So if you've got a great story, we'd love to hear it. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Thanks again. Johnson's thanks, Margi. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.
Jared Johnson [05:08:33] Thanks.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Thumbnail Credits: Main image provided by Jared and Camille Johnson; Background image of the Salt Lake Temple from High Country News.
One Response
I loved this interview. I’m going to be 78 years old next month and left the church officially 40 plus years ago. I actually left intellectually in my teens in the 60s, didn’t go on a mission ( went into the Air Force for 4 years), became active in the 70s due to girl friend while I was going to college active and active in student wards. I’m commenting because I heard the work “authentic” several times and so related as to why I left Mormonism. Didn’t relate to a religion or philosophy that restricted authentic expression and through obedience to religious doctrine forced to became a Mormon cookie cutter personality. Rebelled from that, didn’t respect the “authority” of white old men in Salt Lake speaking for Jesus or God. Thanks for sharing your story. If you ever decide to form a “group” on supporting authenticity I would love to participate.