Introducing the Young Family's Story

John Dehlin [00:00:04] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] Hi everyone, it's John Dehlin and I just wanted to take a minute to give a tribute to Leah Young, Cody Young, Brinley Young, and the entire Young family. As we learned recently, just yesterday or today, of their excommunication, I learned about the Young family, let's just say a year, year and a half ago as I noticed on Facebook, that Leah Young was starting to express some concerns and doubts, you know, innocently. Like so many people within Mormonism these days, Leah made some friends and found out from some dear friends that they were having some doubts and questions about the Mormon Church. And originally out of a desire to help and support their friends, you know, Leah Young started to learn more about Mormonism and started to discover all sorts of things that she didn't know before that she had never been taught.

John Dehlin [00:01:54] And this became something that was very distressing and troubling to Leah. And so she started to express things on Facebook in groups and started to talk to Cody about it. And of course Cody, being a super orthodox devout Mormon, at first was hesitant and reluctant. But over time, Cody started studying in depth as a physician of someone who cares about science and evidence. Cody started digging into the church's truth claims as well. And over time, and with much resistance, Cody started also questioning and doubting the Mormon Church. And as Cody and Leah did this, they started, you know, of course they went to their bishop and their Stake president, the Mormon bishop and stake president trying to get support.

John Dehlin [00:02:45] And of course they were not able to receive the support that they needed because bishops and stake Presidents don't know about the problems that the Mormon Church of truth claims. And most importantly, if they do know about them, they don't have any good answers about them. And then finally, they certainly don't know how to support someone who is in faith crisis in the modern era.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] And so desperately wanting to receive support from others and not just on the Internet, but in person, but also to provide support, realizing that there are so many people in pain. Lee and Cody Young started a support group in the Columbus, Ohio area to try and provide support to others who were struggling, but also to receive that support.

John Dehlin [00:03:33] And as they started that support group and as their leaders found out that they were leading a support group and trying to provide that support that they couldn't find with the Mormon leaders, ironically, they were called in by their bishop and by their stake president.

John Dehlin [00:03:50] They were questioned as if, you know, this was the Russian KGB or the FBI or the CIA. And ultimately they were told that if they didn't take their, you know, Columbus, Ohio or central Ohio progressive and post Mormon support community down, that they would be called into a disciplinary court.

John Dehlin [00:04:13] During this process, they decided that they wanted to tell their story on Mormon Stories podcast. And so if you look at Mormon Stories episodes 1044 through 1050, Cody and Leah Young, along with their courageous daughter Brynlee, came on Mormon Stories podcast and spent several hours telling their beautiful, heart wrenching, authentic story. Again, to just be able to speak openly about their truths, to share their experiences, and to also be able to provide encouragement and support for others who wondered what was going on with them, who might be gossiping about what was going on with them or making false assumptions, and then, most importantly, with a heart towards helping other people not feel so alone to feel supported.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] This Mormon Stories podcast episode will go down as one of the most important Mormon Stories podcast episodes, not just because of Cody and Leah Young's courage and thoughtfulness and sensitivity, but also because of their daughter Brynlee, who is one of the most courageous and thoughtful and sensitive and wise 15 year olds I've ever met in my life. And she was willing to come on the podcast and tell her story as well.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] And so, as the Youngs followed their hearts, their consciences, told their truths, and sought to provide succor and support for others out there who also need support. As the request to them came in, flooded in from families all over the country.

John Dehlin [00:05:49] And as they started personally sacrificing their time for others who needed support, of course, their Mormon bishop and stake president started clamping down more and more to the point where finally a couple weeks ago, they receive a letter from their Mormon stake president telling them that they would be summoned to a disciplinary council for apostasy, primarily for starting and leading a support community for the very people that same stake president was unwilling and unable to support.

John Dehlin [00:06:28] And so we found out, of course, you know, two days ago or yesterday, they received their letter finally, that they have been excommunicated from the Mormon Church for apostasy. The Young family has been excommunicated from the Mormon Church primarily for creating a support group for progressive and post Mormons who were sad and anxious and depressed and unsupported by the Mormon Church and by the Mormon Church leaders.

John Dehlin [00:06:58] Now, before we get too angry, before we get too upset, let's just have a moment of empathy to try and put ourselves in the shoes of the Mormon Church and to try and understand why in the world would the Mormon Church in 2019 be excommunicating people, beautiful people, strong people, courageous people, devoted people. Why would they be doing this?

John Dehlin [00:07:24] One simple answer. The Mormon Church is scared. Perhaps scared is an inadequate word. I believe that in their heart of hearts, the Mormon Church leaders are terrified. Why are they terrified? Because the Mormon Church is hemorrhaging members outside of the United States, in the developed world, whether it's in Europe or the developed Asia, the Mormon Church is collapsing. It is in free fall.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] Go anywhere in Western Europe, the Mormon Church is collapsing. Go to Japan, go to Korea, South Korea. The Mormon Church is collapsing in the United States. If it weren't for a strong but shrinking birth rate, the Mormon Church would be declining in the United States as well because more people are leaving and resigning than are joining as missionaries. And the attrition rates and the inactivity rates in the United States are abysmal. Even in the United States, the growth rate has slowed in the Mormon Church to less than 1% annually.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] Missionaries are in decline. We you can actually look at a graph on the church's own website and the number of Mormon missionaries is in decline. The number of wards and stakes outside of Utah is shrinking. The church is collapsing. These wards and stakes are either being closed or collapsed. Chapels are being sold off. And the only growth in Mormonism in 2019 is in the developing world, primarily in Africa in and so because Africans and people in the Philippines and in Latin America are amongst the most vulnerable in the world, the least educated and the most vulnerable and the most in need, the church can do a shell game statistically and offset the mass defection in the developed world by these high volume, low quality in terms of true conversion baptisms and, you know, creation of branches and wards and districts and stakes and miss in Africa.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] And it's a shell game that's financially unsustainable. But it's the only way to mask the fact that the Mormon Church in the rest of the world is in free fall. What's further evidence of the Mormon Church being in free fall?

Crisis and Declining Faith in the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [00:09:58] As the new prophet, Russell M. Nelson begins his administration, he starts making furious changes to try and Stem the tide. All of these changes have one thing in common. They all make it easier to be Mormon. And so the Mormon Church has abandoned its name because its name, Mormon or LDS Church, has become so soiled, it's running from its own reputation.

John Dehlin [00:10:28] To make it easier to be Mormon or to be a member of the church, the Church has shortened its Sunday service for from three hours to two hours a week. The Church has changed its Mormon Temple ceremony, which reportedly was given by revelation from God to the prophets. And now it continues to change the Mormon Temple ceremony to make it more woman friendly and feminist friendly. And again, that's to stem the tide. Of all the feminists and the feminists and women who are waking up to the Church's oppressive patriarchy and are leaving the Church in masses, especially millennial women, the Church is becoming more open and honest about its history.

John Dehlin [00:11:12] Not because it has a true desire to be honest, but because of Google and the Internet and blogs and podcasts and researchers. Now, the Mormon Church has been shown to have a century plus long history of hiding its truthfulness, truthful history of punishing anyone who talks about it. And so now the Church is becoming more open and honest about its history, but only with a heavy dose of contextualizing and gaslighting and continued deception. Through the Gospel Topics essays, the Church is reversing its homophobic LGBT policies, or at least its most egregious one, which was the November 2015 policy.

John Dehlin [00:11:55] But it's not doing this out of love for LGBT people. LGBT people in the Mormon Church have simply been downgraded from worse than pedophiles, worse than murders, worse than rapists, worse than abusers, to on par with rapists and murderers and child abusers. And that's not because the Church loves LGBT people. It's not because the Church is less homophobic. It's because the Church has seen millennials and progressive, caring Mormons defect in droves over the Church's anti LGBT homophobic policies. And so the Church is even backtracking on some of the things that it cherished most as doctrine, which is its homophobic practices and policies.

John Dehlin [00:12:46] All these changes and all this defection within Mormonism is not a Mormon dynamic. Christianity and orthodox religion and even progressive religion is in free fall in the Western world. The largest religious group in the United States and the fastest growing group in the United States that's religious is those who are no longer religious, those who no longer identify with any religious tradition at all.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] And so, yes, the Mormon Church is in decline. It is in free fall and because the leaders care about the church and they care about their reputation and they don't want to see the Church destroyed, they are willing to make changes. And part of its historic reaction to being scared and terrified, the Mormon Church excommunicates its real prophets out of fear and out of some delusion that excommunicating its best and its brightest and its most courageous will somehow help slow the decline.

John Dehlin [00:13:57] And I am just here to witness that this is a flawed strategy. The Mormon Church is trying to do what all unhealthy organizations do. They try and control their members through fear, through emotions like fear and coercion and intimidation so that they can control the thoughts of its members. But how does it control the thoughts of its members? Only by controlling the information that its members receive. And so by using fear, they try and control behavior so they can control the information, so ultimately they can control the thoughts of its members.

John Dehlin [00:14:43] And that's why they're excommunicating people. Cody and Leah Young have spoken up and spoken their truth, not out of a desire to hurt the Mormon Church or its members, but only out of a desire to be authentic and to be vulnerable. And most importantly, out of a desire to help people who are in need. And the Church can't have bright, strong, professional, thoughtful people like the Youngs disseminating information that then leads to other Mormons who care and respect about the Youngs to have their own thoughts about what you know might be problematic with the church because then they might stop doubting or questioning the church and leaving it.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] So make no mistake about it, excommunications are about fear and intimidation and manipulation. The Church wants to strike fear in the hearts of its members and discredit Cody and Leah Young and others like them so that people won't listen to them. They'll be afraid of them. They'll be afraid to associate with them, and they'll stay away from them. If we look at and study the history of the Mormon Church, we what we are going to find, and what we find is that this latest excommunication is just one in a long, long line of excommunications that the Mormon Church for apostasy that the Mormon Church has been enacting on some of its best and its brightest members.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] Fawn brody in the 1940s and 50s, you know, Maxine Hanks, Paul Toscano, Lavina Fielding Anderson and all the members of the September Six In September 1993, Brent Metcalfe, who came later, Margaret Toscano, who came later several other people during the mid-90s. And then if you go into the 2010s, you know, Rock Waterman, Denver Snuffer Kate Kelly, Me Carson and Marisa Calderwood, Jeremy Runnels, Sam Young, Bill Real. The list goes on and on.

John Dehlin [00:17:01] I am here to say in April 19, 2019 that the practice of excommunicating your best and your brightest out of fear for apostasy Mormon Church is a flawed strategy, and I will tell you why. Number one, the more the Mormon Church excommunicates people for talking openly, sincerely, about the problems with the church's truth claims, with its racism, with its homophobia, with its patriarchy, with its sexism, with all of its problems, the more the church actually draws attention to the problems, to the very problems the church is trying to hide. Look up Barbra Streisand Effect Mormon Church. Google it. The more you ban a book, the more people buy and read the book.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] So excommunications are counterproductive. But keep doing it if you want to. You are only going to be drawing more and more attention to the problems you're trying to hide and to the problems you're trying to avoid the discussion of with your membership. Number two, Mormon Church. The more you excommunicate people, the more the more you fall prey to the network effect, which is where you cause a chain of disaffection and concern among the family members and friends of those you excommunicate. Just like with the LGBT problem. When do you care about LGBT people? When your child or a close family member or friend comes out as lgbt?

John Dehlin [00:18:39] When do you care about, you know, church history or the church's truth claims, or the feminism, or the sexism or the racism? When somebody you love and care about is excommunicated for talking about these problems. And so you are only creating a network effect of disaffection. And that is part of why you've seen your memberships, your resignation skyrocket and your membership collapse over the past 10 or 15 years. So keep up the excommunications if you want to keep up, if you want to see these disaffections continue.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] Third, the more the Mormon Church excommunicates people, the more it alienates millennials and the younger generations and all of those people, old and young, who are completely turned off by abuse, by patriarchy, by acts of petty and insecure aggression.

John Dehlin [00:19:35] So you want to see the millennials disaffect in droves. Keep punishing, excommunicating your best and your brightest, your prophets Your real prophets and your most courageous, finally, Mormon Church. Most importantly, the more you excommunicate people, the more you betray who you claim to be the founder of your religion, the more you betray Christ. Excommunication is fundamentally an unchristlike act.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] I've been excommunicated. I've seen it. It's barbaric, it's medieval, it's blunt, it's thoughtless, it's compassionless, it's ignorant, it's fearful, and it in no way represents the virtues of Jesus Christ. It's something the Catholic Church pretty much got rid of with the Spanish Inquisition and, you know, the medieval times.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] The Catholic Church of all institutions realize that excommunication is counterproductive, but it's also fundamentally unchristlike. In Mormon Church, I'm telling you the same thing. When you excommunicate your prophets, your real prophets, your truth tellers, your seers, those who reveal problems with the institution, you are betraying the spirit of Jesus Christ. Who did Jesus Christ excommunicate? No one. What did Jesus do? Jesus criticized the Sadducees, the Pharisees, the hypocrites, the religious leaders who cared more about rules and policies and minutiae, and they cared about the legalism of religion over compassion and empathy and kindness. And I'm telling you, there's nothing compassionate about excommunication. There's nothing empathetic about it.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] There's nothing charitable about it. You are literally excommunicating the people who are following Christ's admonition to seek after the One and to leave the 99, to suffer with those who are in need of comfort, to mourn with those who mourn, to listen to those who are disenfranchised. You're betraying your Christlike principles to stick up for legalism and arbitrary corporatism. And you're betraying the name of the man whose name your church bears and encompasses. And so ultimately, you are going to be soiling your own reputation as an alleged Christian church by continuing to excommunicate people for apostasy.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] As I was reading the Young's posts today on Facebook, one of the commenters wrote, the Mormon Church doesn't deserve the Youngs. And I'm going to go a little bit further. I want you to think about all the people who have been excommunicated, all the Mormons who have been excommunicated for apostasy in the past 10 years or so.

John Dehlin [00:22:39] What do all of these excommunicants in the past several years have in Common tell you if you are excommunicated for apostasy in the past 10 to 15 years, this is what I've seen. This is what it means. Number one, it means you are a person who cares.

John Dehlin [00:23:03] It means you care about the disenfranchised, the poor, the vulnerable, the needy, the afflicted. Number two, it means that you are courageous. It means you're willing to do what is right, regardless of consequence. It means you are willing to stand up to power, even if it means that coming at great sacrifice to yourself.

What Excommunication Means for the Young Family

John Dehlin [00:23:26] Number three, it means that you're willing to fight for positive change. It means you love, you are fundamentally Mormon and. And you care about the Mormon Church. Most importantly, it means you care about Mormons and you care about the Mormon people. And you want to help fight for the church's health so that it stops hurting people, so that it stops stabbing itself in the eye and in the heart. And you care about Mormons so the church stops hurting children, stops hurting adults, stops hurting Mormon families. It means you care about Mormonism in the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:24:04] And you care so much you're willing to speak truth to power. Number four, it means that you are having an impact within the Mormon Church. Take any of the excommunicants that have been excommunicated. Kate Kelly, Jeremy Runnels. Me, Bill Real, Sam Young. What do all of these excommunicants have in common? They have helped in significant ways contribute to positive change within the church. The church is a little bit better with women because of Kate Kelly and ordained women. The church is a little bit better and more transparent with its history because of people like me and Sam Young and Jeremy Runnels. Sorry, me and Jeremy Reynolds and Bill Real.

John Dehlin [00:24:46] And the people who've been excommunicated for calling the church on the carpet for being dishonest and deceptive and untruthful about its church history. Look at the church's policies on its interviewing children and young adults about matters of sexuality. The church is better in 2019 than it's ever been before about not having inappropriate sexual interviews with children and adults. Why? Because of the work of Sam Young and all of those behind the Protect LDS Children movement. And so if you are, ironically, if you are excommunicated for apostasy in 2010, 2019, it means you are making a positive impact on the Mormon Church. And ironically, in one of the most classless, you know, ungraceful tendencies I've ever seen in an organization, because the Mormon Church claims to be led by God, because the Mormon Church claims to have a prophets, prophets who lead the Church through God, through inspiration.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] The Church does this really sickening, cowardly act of responding to the criticisms and calls for change that people like Kate Kelly, Sam Young, Bill Real, Jeremy Runnels, me and others make. They respond to the change, they make the positive changes, and then they excommunicate the people who are most responsible for for the activity and the concern expressed that leads to the very change. It's a sick, cowardly, unfortunate tendency that the Mormon Church has and the Mormon Church will go down in history as punishing the very prophets, seers and revelators that led to its own positive change. I don't know if the Church will ever apologize for doing this, but it is clear as day.

John Dehlin [00:26:50] It is as clear as the sunlight in Utah in April 19, 2019 that the Mormon Church does this. Fifth, when the Mormon Church excommunicates someone for apostasy, it means you are on the right side of history. It means that you stand with the great civil rights leaders of the 20th and 21st centuries. With Gandhi, with Martin Luther King, with Malcolm X, with the leaders, with the suffragettes of the late 19th and early 20th century, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, all of those courageous people again, the supporters of the era, the supporters of the civil rights movement, Harvey Milk, and the leaders of the LGBT rights movement.

John Dehlin [00:27:41] When you are excommunicated for Apostasy in 2019 in the Mormon Church, it means you stand with those people all on the right side of history. I'm not sure exactly the quote that Paul Toscano made one of the September six, but he's been quoted as having said that excommunication from the Mormon Church in the modern era is the holiest of Mormon sacraments. It's not the weekly bread and water. It's not baptism, it's not the endowment, it's not even temple marriage. And it's not even the second anointing.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] The holiest sacrament to Mormonism that is genuinely attributable to following the virtues of Jesus Christ is excommunication for apostasy. That is a fact. So to conclude, I ask you, anyone who's within the sound of my voice, to, to join me today in honoring Leah Young, Leah Lewis Young, Cody Young, Brinley Young, and the entire Young family.

John Dehlin [00:28:53] That's Avery, that's Aspen, and that's Reese. To Leah and Cody and Brinley and Avery and Aspen and Reese Young. You are caring, you are thoughtful, you are courageous, you are strong, you are inspirational, you are on the right side of history.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] We are inspired by you. We honor you, we respect you, we cherish you. Most importantly, we see you and we love you. You are not alone. You may have been rejected by a corporate church that has lost its way, but you can join us, the progressive and post Mormon community. You can enter into our arms of love and support.

John Dehlin [00:29:59] We look up to you, we embrace you, we cherish you, and we welcome you to our new community. This will be a community hopefully that's based on openness, that's based on honesty, that's based on gender equality, that's based on equality irrespective of sexual preference or gender identity or or sexual identity.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] It will hopefully hold women and men of equal esteem. It will hopefully hold people of all races to equal esteem. And together we'll also hopefully embrace science and history and evidence and build a new community out of the ashes, like a phoenix rising from the ashes,

Guest [00:30:51] based

John Dehlin [00:30:51] on the core principles of what Christ and Buddha and Gandhi and whoever else has tried to lead a positive movement. We will base this new community on all of these virtues. Learning from the past Mormon Church we understand you.

John Dehlin [00:31:10] We don't condemn you. We know your job is hard. We show you love and respect. But we also say there's a new era. And Cody and Leah and Brinley and Avery and Aspen and Reese, welcome to our new community.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] We love you, we embrace you, we're inspired by you. And we look forward to the amazing things that we can do together in the weeks and months and years and decades ahead. For all of you within the shadow My voice Excommunication can be joyous. It can be relieving. But it can also be terrible and sad and tragic and barbaric. So please reach out to the youngs. Give them your love. Give them your support.

Closing Tribute and Words of Support

John Dehlin [00:32:02] Find your own way to honor and respect and cherish them. And thank you for listening today. And we look forward to continuing the work in the weeks and the years and the months ahead. We're not going anywhere, so thanks for listening and again, so much love to the young family on this sad but joyous day. Take care.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Alright to Be youe is a collaboration song by electronic musician Milo Craft and singer songwriter Angela Soaf. In 2018, they founded the Be Moved Program Project to create music that helps people feel happy and connected. To hear more music or support the project by becoming a patron, please visit angelasof.com that's s o ffe.com There is

Guest [00:33:17] a light beyond the shore Calling to you once more this is the life you're making There is a love for the taking it's all right these guys don't have to be you Baby, you're somebody new when the lines are drawn in front of you all right to be new you. It's all right to be you Shame displays it says who you want to be but there is a wiser part of you I know you feel it too.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.