Introduction and 2019 Announcements

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1037

John Dehlin [00:00:31] Hello everyone. Happy New year. It is January 1, 2019. As always, my name is John Dehlin and I could not be more excited for the first Mormon Stories podcast episode of 2019. This isn't necessarily the the episode that I strategically planned for January 1, for New Year's or for the first Mormon Stories episode, but timing and situation made it so.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] Today we have a very fascinating and interesting interview on Mormon Stories. Just to give you a little bit of a preview before I make a few announcements and then we dive in. Many of you heard last year one of the biggest stories of 2018 was when McKenna Denson shared with the world an audio recording of her confrontation with accused sexual predator slash rapist Joseph Bishop, who was the president of the Provo Missionary training center when McKenna was in the MTC going on her mission to serve the LDS Church. And in that audio recording, Joseph Bishop acknowledges or admits to not only sexually assaulting McKenna, but other people as well.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] This was a big story, a national story, maybe even an international story. And for those of you who have been following Mormon Stories podcast over the years, you will have heard us interview last year Sam Young, the Protect LDS Children's movement, which has been very closely tied to McKenzie Denson and Joseph Bishop and lots of other stories where we've learned again that in way too many instances the LDS Church is found to protect sexual abusers at the expense of victims and, and also to punish people who attempt to speak out about and expose the Church's problems with how it deals with sexual predators. Well, given all that background, can you imagine with me for a second being an active, believing, participating Mormon and actually living in the ward of Joseph Bishop, so not just knowing that there's an accused sexual predator rapist in your ward while you're attending it, but having your children pass the sacrament to this person, Joseph Bishop, seeing him serve in the Sunday School presidency and watching someone like Sam Young get excommunicated for talking openly about the Church's problems protecting victims.

John Dehlin [00:03:33] While you're watching Joseph Bishop remain an active member in good standing. That is what today's interview is about. Today we are interviewing Todd and Sarah Gayle from Phoenix, Arizona area and they're going to be talking about what it was like when all this happened.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] We'll be talking about their upbringing as Mormons. We'll be talking about when Todd started, you know, questioning and thinking more about his Mormonism. Then how this Joseph Bishop scandal became an important factor in their day to day experiences as Mormons in Chandler, Arizona and how it's affected their family and their relationship with the church and their own personal lives, you know, over the past year. It's a really important and an interesting story and I'm really honored that Todd and Sarah would be willing to tell this story given that they're still attending their Chandler, Arizona ward. As I understand it, that takes extra courage because as you all know, they'll potentially be showing up to church again after doing this interview with or they talk openly about even current leaders.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] And also we'll be talking about a second sexual scandal that happened in this same area involving, as I understand it, their current stake president. There was a sexual scandal that happened back in 2010 with a mother daughter pair who were Mormons, Susan and Rachel Brock, who are in prison now for sexually assaulting a young man who is Mormon as well. And as I understand it, the bishop who presided over the handling of the Susan and Rachel Brock sex scandal is now their current stake president.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] Now they'll be able to correct if I got any of this wrong. But without any further ado, Todd and Sarah Gale, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Todd Gale [00:05:52] Thank you. Hi John, Good to have.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] What's that?

Todd Gale [00:05:56] We're happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:05:59] Couple quick shout outs. First of all, I want to thank Jeremy and Molly Young for letting us use their home to record this episode. I think you guys don't have great Internet connection where you live, is that right, Todd and Sarah?

John Dehlin [00:06:15] So shout out to the Mormon and some of you will remember my interview with Jeremy and we didn't interview Molly, but Jeremy and Molly have now launched a new social media presence called Mormon Wine Snobs. And you can follow them on Instagram and probably in other places. But they have become connoisseurs of wine and feel really passionately about sharing their love of wine with others.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] I'm not a drinker, at least I haven't been yet. So that's not any official endorsement of alcohol. But we know that many progressive and post Mormons have found a way to incorporate alcohol healthily into their lives. And so shout out to Jeremy and Molly for trying to encourage a healthy relationship with something that was forbidden to many.

John Dehlin [00:07:00] But most of all, thanks Jeremy and Molly for letting us use your home for this recording. A couple quick announcements. I just want to thank all of our donors for 2018. We had a great year. Definitely one of our best years ever, if not our best year. One of the greatest things about 2018 was we were able to finance a billboard campaign for several months and my social media, my web developer, Jeremy Cargill let us know that we experienced an 18% increase in new visitors to MormonStories.org over the three months that we had this really prevalent and awesome billboard on i15 around 3200 South. It may still be up, they may have taken it down.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] But for those of you who are able to Travel northward on i15 on the right hand side, you would have noticed around 3200 South a billboard that said know your religion and then Mormon Stories podcast. So a shout out to Travis Stratford for designing that and a shout out to all our donors for funding that campaign. It was a very successful campaign and I'm very excited to also announce that we have a new project in beta form that we will be launching in 2019.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] If you go to MormonStories.org in the menu, there's now a menu item called Truth Claims. And this is a project where we're going to be telling the story of several Mormon truth claims with the intent of just putting on Mormon stories some written resources around all the different elements of truth claims that the Church stands behind. Whether it's Joseph Smith, the First Vision, treasure Digging, the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith Translation, Doctrinal changes Mormon culture.

John Dehlin [00:08:58] We have a very thoughtful and educated donor who wishes to remain anonymous at this point who has written a bunch of really cool information about Mormon truth claims and he's donated his writings to to MormonStories.org so that there can be some information about Mormon truth claims up on the website and you can go check that out now.

John Dehlin [00:09:25] What we plan to do is feature several of these truth claims in Mormon Stories episodes in the coming year where we'll be digging deeper into a lot of these issues, including Folk Magic, the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, all the stuff that you would expect.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] We hope to be going in depth to make sure Mormon Stories provides its version of the stories behind Mormon truth claims. You can think of these essays as essays that the Church should have written when they did the Gospel topics essays. Essays that are respectful, that attempt to be neutral, but that relate the evidence around Mormon truth claims in a way where people can learn.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] We hope that they we want to edit them to make sure that they're respectful and you know, not snarky, but credible and fact based and interesting more than anything else. So we welcome our listeners to go to MormonStories.org Truth Claims. Check out the essays there and and we would welcome any feedback you have. The first one we're going to featuring is folk magic and treasure digging and then the next one is going to be Book of Mormon historicity. And we have planned to interview Dan Vogel in the next week or two to kind of kick off that project. And we'll be interviewing other people in the weeks and months ahead.

John Dehlin [00:10:55] So I just wanted to announce that and if all goes right, we are working with a billboard company to release new billboards in the Salt lake area for 2019 that bring attention to these issues around truth claims. So we're in the final stages of negotiating that deal. But if you're interested in this project, just check out again mormonstories.org truth claims.

John Dehlin [00:11:23] And we would love, you know, we would love you to know about that. For those of you who don't know, just as a side project that's not directly affiliated with the Open Stories foundation, my wife Margi, Natasha Helfer Parker and I have launched a new project independent of Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation for now at least, called the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. We are doing a weekly podcast where we are each week tackling questions that people have around a faith crisis. Our goal is to over a year to provide sort of in depth content coverage for helping support people through a faith crisis so that there's just free and available expert information on how to navigate a faith crisis.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] Check us out@mormonfaithcrisis.com it's also called the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis and we hope that this project culminates in a book that can just be this manual, one stop shop for navigating a faith crisis that will be a main focus for 2019 for me and Margi and Natasha. Again, this is separate from the Open Stories foundation, but it's very much related to many of you who are listening. So please go to mormonfaithcrisis.com check it out, share the word and give us whatever support you can there as well.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] So that's the announcements other than some of you will know that you know, there's a lot of demand for the workshop and retreat content that we have historically shared for people in Faith Crisis. We'll be announcing locations and dates for workshops over the coming, you know, months and year.

John Dehlin [00:13:12] So if you are interested in attending a faith crisis workshop or retreat, if you're struggling in your marriage around faith crisis issues, if you're struggling with extended family, concerned about raising kids, experiencing depression or anxiety, trying to rebuild a sense of spirituality or positive mental health, whatever it is, these events are very highly rated, always 4.9 out of 5.

John Dehlin [00:13:39] And people say that they're well worth the investment and that they've saved their lives, they've saved their families, they've saved their marriages, etc. Natasha, Margi and I are going to be doing these workshops in 2019. We're super excited about it. And please email us@mormonfaithcrisismail.com or go to mormonfaithcrisis.com events and you can check out what events are going to be announced. And we would love to provide the service to anyone who needs it.

Introducing Todd and Sarah Gale

John Dehlin [00:14:12] So that's all our announcements for today. Now let's get to the main event. We want to thank everyone on Facebook who's joining us live. We are live streaming today's episode. Even though it's New Year's. We have several people who have already joined us. Wow, 89 people have already joined us. That's a great number.

John Dehlin [00:14:32] Shout out to everyone who's joining us now. Happy New Year. Zan, Allison, Masej I don't know how to pronounce your name. M, A, C, I, E, J. Please tell me how to phonetically pronounce your name. You're one of our top fans, Rick and John and Jeffrey. So many cool people have joined us live. We want to just welcome you all and say thank you. We hope to give you guys a really good episode today. By by the way, if anyone wants to help Mormon Stories podcast, one thing you can do right now is share this episode on your wall in groups, etc. And say, hey, today we're going to be interviewing a couple that's in Joseph Bishop's ward who's been accused by McKenna Denson of sexual assault.

John Dehlin [00:15:16] And we're going to be covering a really important topic which is what it's like to live in the ward of accused sexual predator who goes unpunished as far as we know, while people like Sam Young and others get punished for talking about these issues, we would really love people to share and promote this interview. If I could see 50 people share this episode, we can get our live listeners up to 3 or 400 and really make a difference because that's what we're trying to do. Our goal on Mormon Stories is to help the Mormon Church harm less people.

John Dehlin [00:15:52] We're not trying to embarrass the church. We're not trying to hurt the church. In fact, if the church became more healthy and a positive experience for the members, we'd be thrilled because that's really what it's about. Let's help the Church do less harm.

John Dehlin [00:16:08] And that's why we're doing this. So please share this interview with everyone you can on Facebook right now and let's see how large we can get the number of shares and the live viewing audience. That'd be amazing. Victoria, thanks for joining us. Ann, it's always great to have you. Jeffrey Noel's joining us from Australia.

John Dehlin [00:16:27] Lori is joining us from Canada. So, Todd and Sarah Gail, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast. I imagine that must be very, very hard to speak out publicly on an issue like this when you're still attending your local ward as Mormons. And it's always a sensitive issue to speak about matters of sexuality and to be public about your concerns.

Why They Decided to Speak Out Publicly

John Dehlin [00:16:58] And it can be terrifying. So why don't we have each of you. Todd, why don't we have you go first. Why did you decide that as a Mormon who's attending church, you wanted to speak up publicly about what it's like to have accused sexual predator Joseph Bishop in your ward where your children are actually passing the sacrament to him and seeing him apparently go unpunished. While people like Sam Young are being punished for just talking about these issues, why did you choose to come out publicly? Great question.

Todd Gale [00:17:33] I think I follow the church protocol. Soon after the recordings came out, Sarah and I met in private with our bishop. We shared our concerns and we said, you know, Bishop, our bishop of our ward, you know, we're concerned about this.

Todd Gale [00:17:59] At the time. I said, I know for a fact, at least on one occasion, that he, as a member of the Sunday school presidency, that was his calling at the time, substituted for my then 13 year old boy's Sunday school class in second hour.

Todd Gale [00:18:17] And I said, bishop, my bishop, I have a problem with that. And I asked him, what do you know about this man? Have you listened to the recording? He's an accused sexual predator. There was a BYU report released shortly thereafter that confirms that. So there's two valid sources that if his admitted actions to McKenna Denson, I said, bishop, I have a problem with that. I need to, I need to know what is his current status is.

John Dehlin [00:18:51] And so you were, you're. If we're just. We don't. We'll get to the details of the story later. But you're just saying you were threatening your own safety. The own safety of your family was a motive. Is that part of it?

Todd Gale [00:19:03] Right? I mean, Sarah and I had made an agreement years before when it comes to bishop interviews, anything related to that level of priesthood leadership, that we, at least one of us are always present in those interviews. So sirens went off when that recording came out because her and I were already on the same page about being Alone with anyone church. So from my point of view, I felt I had a right to know. This is my ward and he's. At least one occasion was in a class with my son, much less other kids in the class.

John Dehlin [00:19:47] Okay. So that was my one motive, was just being concerned about the safety of your own family members. Without going into the details of the story, any other broader motivations for why you want to tell your story?

Todd Gale [00:20:02] I think just justice, you know, from a salt Lake level, it seemed as though nothing was happening, no actions were being taken. It became status quo in our ward. On a ward and stake level, they quickly try to smooth it over with smooth talk and saying it's okay. And they tried to make it kind of go away and make it look or make it seem like it's all back to normal, nothing to worry about, you know, back to status quo.

John Dehlin [00:20:41] Okay, so you want to make sure there's justice and accountability, it sounds like. Sarah, is there anything you want to add?

Sarah Gale [00:20:49] I would just say that although it's a really hard thing, especially because we're still attending this ward with our children, I've always been taught in my life by my parents and also throughout my, you know, membership in the church, right from wrong. And so from the very beginning when this happened and came out, you know, I've been conflicted with that, that this is wrong, this is wrong, and I can't keep quiet anymore about something that I know deep down in my core is wrong. And so that's, you know, why I think we've built up our courage to share our story.

John Dehlin [00:21:57] Okay, well, thanks. Thanks for sharing. Let's dive right in. So let's just touch briefly just in a minute or two. Give us a sense for your respective Mormon upbringings, background, just so we can get a sense for what the church has meant to each of you in your life kind of in your formative years. Do you want to go first, Todd?

Todd and Sarah's Mormon Upbringings

Todd Gale [00:22:23] Sure. I'm a fifth or sixth generation member of the church. I grew up in neighboring Mesa, Arizona, had a super strong ward. Our neighborhood of four blocks constituted our ward. So virtually every single house on those four blocks were members. Awesome activities. When I was a kid, there was 15 plus deacons in the ward, Just tons of youth, great scout leaders, great activities. I went to EFY once when I was in 8th or 9th grade, I think it was, and that was an awesome experience. And you know, introduced to Mormon legends like John, by the way. And we got a concert from Afterglow, you know, the 80s afterglow group.

John Dehlin [00:23:16] Wait, you Saw Afterglow in concert, right?

Todd Gale [00:23:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:23:20] That's like the Mormon air supply, Right.

Todd Gale [00:23:22] So my sisters had the cassette tapes, you know, we played at home and. And they were on their little stools playing their acoustic guitars and. Or, you know, singing away and. And I was just there going for girls because, you know, that was very exciting. But I was spiritually blown away by the experience, and it was a very spiritual thing for me.

Todd Gale [00:23:47] Seminary was awesome. One of your previous guests, Heidi Nielsen Packard, was. We went to school together, and I reached out to her after, heard her podcast, and I think we shared the same class, definitely the same ninth grade seminary teacher. That was very profound experience for me. We learned the Book of Mormon for that year and testimony grew, served the mission two years, leadership callings within the mission.

Todd Gale [00:24:21] I even extended a month because I felt maybe I didn't give all that 100% and maybe that extra month sealed the deal for me. You know, self reflection, you know, at the time of was I did I give everything I had on my mission.

Todd Gale [00:24:38] So, yeah, great, great youth. I had the utility component with the social, the family, the group. And then when I became a teenager, the validity component grew within me that my testimony was anchored in Joseph Smith and the founding doctrines of the church.

John Dehlin [00:25:04] Okay, so a very devout, would you say, orthodox Mormon upbringing.

Todd Gale [00:25:10] Very much so.

John Dehlin [00:25:12] And strong love for the church.

Todd Gale [00:25:15] My father was in two stake presidencies, and so I got to meet then Elder Oaks, when he was released, called for the second Stake Presidency. And then Elder Nelson, at the time President Nelson, now came to release and call the new stake president. So I got to meet both of them, given those experiences, so wonderful experiences as a kid for sure.

John Dehlin [00:25:44] Okay. All right. How about you, Sarah? What's your kind of Mormon cred Background?

Sarah Gale [00:25:53] Same. I was born into the church. My parents and our families were extended families, very active in the church, very proud of our pioneer heritage. One of my great, great grandfathers was one of the first to settle in the Bear Lake, Paris, Idaho area.

Sarah Gale [00:26:25] And it's become a tradition for our family because we're so proud of our ancestors and their sacrifices and what they went through. Every other year, we travel up to that area and we go to all the cemeteries and talk about them and share stories about them and remember, you know, the things that they went through in their lives and just grew up in a very devout Mormon family.

Sarah Gale [00:26:59] I grew up in a small town in Arizona called Lake Havasu City. Most of my childhood had a little bit different experience as a, you know, a youth, because in Lake Havasu. There weren't very many Mormons. There weren't very many members of the church. And so my parents were often in those leadership positions that, you know, that are involved with the youth.

Sarah Gale [00:27:33] My dad served in several bishoprics, and my mom, you know, was always involved. And they were a big part of creating, you know, the LDS youth experience that I'm so grateful for. They were a big part of creating experiences in our youth that I will always remember. And I was always a rule follower. That's just kind of how I've always been by nature. And, you know, I just never. I never questioned, never doubted, you know, what I was being taught and just followed, you know, followed the teachings, and it always just made sense to me. And I always just believed and really grateful for my parents and their influence in the area that we lived, and that they, you know, were able to provide meaningful spiritual experiences for us as we were growing up there.

John Dehlin [00:29:00] All right, so again, Sarah, very strong, conservative, orthodox Mormon background.

Sarah Gale [00:29:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:07] Where'd you guys meet?

Todd Gale [00:29:11] ASU student. Student?

Sarah Gale [00:29:14] Singles ward.

Todd Gale [00:29:15] Singles ward, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:16] Okay, so you're true Arizonites?

Sarah Gale [00:29:19] We are correct.

John Dehlin [00:29:20] Phoenicians. Is that the word?

Todd Gale [00:29:23] Sure, sure.

Sarah Gale [00:29:25] We call ourselves Sun Devils.

Todd Gale [00:29:27] Okay.

Sarah Gale [00:29:28] I don't think I've ever called myself a Phoenician.

John Dehlin [00:29:31] Oh, that's great. Sun Devil.

Sarah Gale [00:29:33] We're sun devils. Good or bad?

John Dehlin [00:29:37] So both just died in the wool Arizonans.

Sarah Gale [00:29:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:44] Okay, so you met there, married in the temple, I'm assuming.

Todd Gale [00:29:47] Yep. Mesa Temple.

John Dehlin [00:29:48] And in the Mesa Temple. And so you. So, and would you both say you were just really orthodox and believing when he got married?

Todd Gale [00:30:00] Absolutely, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:01] Very committed to making the church work in your lives and being committed to the church.

Sarah Gale [00:30:05] Yes, we were.

Todd's Growing Doubts About the Church

John Dehlin [00:30:07] All right, so maybe. Todd, let's start with you. Take us to when you started having doubts and questions about the church. Because when the Joseph Bishop thing for you, when the Joseph Bishop thing broke, you were already kind of struggling, and that kind of made you open to being concerned, to learning about it and being concerned about it. Is that fair to say?

Todd Gale [00:30:30] Well, my concern was about two years before the recording came out for Joseph Bishop, and I kept it hidden from her for multiple reasons, and, you know, fear being the outlining one. But mine started back in 2000. My journey started back in 2016. And ironically, it was one of my Facebook friends shared a Fair Mormon post about why. I'm paraphrasing why the multiple accounts of the first vision, why it can work. And at that moment, I didn't realize that there were different accounts of the first vision.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] Okay, you learned that for the first time a couple years ago.

Todd Gale [00:31:23] Correct. And so what happened was, like I said before, I'm anchored. My testimony has been anchored in Joseph Smith and his life. And he's a central figure, really, in the restoration of the church. And I thought I knew everything that can be known about him, but for whatever reason, I didn't know that.

Todd Gale [00:31:48] I remember on my mission, I brought the Truman G. Matson cassette tapes, if you remember those recordings, on my mission. And my mission president was super strict, and he can only listen to Motown music. But I smuggle those tapes, and I was able to listen to them on p days. But for me, it gave me firepower, gave me energy, gave me drive to go out there and hit the streets and preach the gospel.

Todd Gale [00:32:16] I remember on those tapes, he would imagine, would mention that there were other accounts, but he led you to believe that they all said the same thing. But the reality is, the accounts, after my research in 2016, said a lot of different things.

Todd Gale [00:32:36] Main one was that in his 1832 accounts, account written by his own hand, only the Lord appeared to Joseph Smith. And that really hit me because the narrative we've been taught and the account that's in the pearl of great price was, of course, God the father and Jesus Christ appearing to Joseph Smith.

Todd Gale [00:33:02] So I feel like I had to really deep dive again and to kind of reconcile that, to get me in an okay space to move forward. But what happens, and I think it happens with a lot of folks, is once you do that deep dive, to figure out, okay, I can reconcile this issue.

Todd Gale [00:33:23] Another issue pops up, and another one and another one. And so, you know, I learned more about Joseph Smith that I didn't know before, not his marrying of young girls, girls that he was twice the age, from girls that are as young as 14, marrying women who were currently married to other men at that time.

Todd Gale [00:33:50] Joseph Smith's honesty, you know, he was a money digger. He would swindle people saying there's treasure on their property, take money from them, take dig a huge hole and say, oh, it vanished. Sorry, you know, it's my shelf got bigger and bigger with these issues, and I would dive into more and more topics. And my attempt was to reconcile, to keep on, but it was just getting worse. And so my transition was, shoot, my salvation.

Todd Gale [00:34:30] Is there a celestial kingdom where my family can be together forever? And then it kind of went to shoot, I've been lied to. I taught this doctrine as doctrine to folks on my mission and to people I meet with and to my children, and it's not the right narrative.

Todd Gale [00:34:52] So I felt betrayed in my tune. And then my journey evolved to. This church can be dangerous to some folks. I learned about one of your podcasts that I found very interesting was the podcast from Thomas Murphy about how what we view as the Lamanites as Native Americans, there really isn't any evidence of that, DNA evidence. And what really struck me was the church.

Todd Gale [00:35:30] You know, you can argue that they stripped their identity from them, saying, no, no, no, no, you're not what you've been taught by your ancestors. You're these people from this book. You were cursed with the dark skin for your wickedness.

Todd Gale [00:35:48] But don't worry, you know, this book is written for you, to bring you back to righteousness, basically. And that really struck me, you know, the identity that it can take from people, the LGTQ community. That really struck me how it can be dangerous to those folks. So I can go on the list on and on here. But,

John Dehlin [00:36:20] yeah, it's a very important story, and it's very important that you share it. And it's also very familiar to many of our listeners. In fact, one of our listeners, Eric, just wrote my exit story almost word for word. So it's important that we tell these stories because it helps us feel not so alone. It helps us feel like we're not crazy, and it allows us to speak our truth and to educate others so that there can be their understanding or empathy or support or at least common ground. So it's all super important. Thank you for sharing that. What was that like in your marriage? So, Sarah, as Todd was studying these things, were you aware of it? Was he hiding it from you? Were you picking up on it? Tell us your experience as Todd was going down the rabbit hole.

Sarah Gale [00:37:12] Well, Todd's always been interested in church history, and he had purchased several books over the years, way as early as 2006, when he bought Rough Stone Rolling. But I was in the throes of motherhood and teaching. I had my own preschool for several years, and I honestly thought that he was just, you know, I never took the time to really read what he was reading or, you know, or ask questions about what he was learning about.

Sarah Gale [00:38:05] I was a busy mom, and I was, you know, busy taking care of our children. And so, you know, in that respect, you know, I am kind of embarrassed to say that I, you know, I didn't really pay much attention to that part of his life. I would see him sitting on the bed reading, or I would see him with an earbud in.

Sarah Gale [00:38:37] And I always just thought he was listening to conference talks. He has quite a long commute to and from work in the mornings. And I always thought that he was listening to conference talks. And come to find out he's not. He's listening and, you know, he's trying to learn, you know, as much as he can about those things.

Sarah Gale [00:39:03] Another thing about Todd is that he's very sarcastic, and that's kind of part of his sense of humor. And so over the years, he would make a comment here and there, a sarcastic comment or remark, and. And, you know, looking back now, that was his way, I think, of dealing with what he was learning. But also that was, I think, his way of trying to tell me.

Todd Gale [00:39:41] And.

Sarah Gale [00:39:46] I just think the only thing that I can think of to describe it is that I was a busy mom. I was not in a place where I was ready to listen to some of the things that he would say. I would, you know, maybe for a second think, well, that's kind of weird or that's kind of odd, you know, But I never.

Sarah Gale [00:40:10] I didn't have the time in my life, you know, as a mom and to want to learn more about it or to ask him why, you know, where did you learn that? Or how did you hear that? I think Todd was the first person that told me that Joseph Smith had more than one wife. I never knew that. You know, we were always taught growing up that.

Sarah Gale [00:40:45] That it was Joseph and Emma and that they had this amazing relationship. I mean, I had a statue sitting on my piano for years and years and years of Joseph and Emma with the caption or the, you know, a little tag at the bottom that said devotion.

Sarah Gale [00:41:12] And he was the first one to tell me that Joseph had that many wives. And at the time, I wasn't in a place where I could investigate that further or ask him, you know, to more detail about that. And, you know, I remember being bothered by it, but just not able to really, you know, allow a place in my life to want to learn more about that.

John Dehlin [00:41:54] Yeah, that's very. That's very, very classic that. On the one hand, Todd, you're going down the rabbit hole, and your whole life is. It feels like the whole ground from upon which you stand is collapsing. You're scared to communicate that directly, but in whatever ways you can, you try and maybe even passive aggressively or subtly broach the subject. And in your case, I think you're a little bit fortunate because it doesn't sound like Sarah was consistently angry at you or threatening you or Harassing you just for learning and evolving in your faith. But it was probably hard for you, Todd, as you were trying to communicate with her. She was just so busy and focused that she wasn't really connecting with what you were experiencing. And so I imagine whatever the marriage was like before, that couldn't have brought you closer together. It must have been a strain on the marriage.

Sarah Gale [00:42:56] Yes, definitely.

Todd Gale [00:42:58] Sarah would double concur on that one.

Sarah Gale [00:43:00] So, you know, at first you, you know, life is challenging and, you know, you're raising kids and you know, Todd has a fast paced, high pressure job and I was running my own business and, you know, and handling our church callings and, you know, trying to be the perfect members of the church. That's, I think, something that I've always, really, personally, I'm a perfectionist and I want to be everything for everyone.

Sarah Gale [00:43:41] And you know, we were in the middle of raising young kids and you know, at first we didn't notice, you know, but as time went on and as things got more stressful, I think for Todd, that definitely made a difference in our, in our marriage. And, you know, that kind of leads us up to, you know, the last year or so, actually even before that. But, you know, things were getting pretty stressful between us.

Sarah Gale [00:44:29] We had basically done a complete 180 lifestyle change. We had sold our house and moved to acreage land. I quit teaching preschool after eight years. You know, we were kind of starting a little farm that we've been working on for a year and a half. And you know, at the time our marriage was strained.

Sarah Gale [00:44:59] We were fighting a lot. Todd was really detached from the family. He would come home from work and he wouldn't engage with the kids. Things got really stressful. And I thought at the time that his life was, or his stresses were coming from work.

Sarah Gale [00:45:26] I thought that things were just. Must have been really hard for him. And he's, he's struggling, you know, with work and I thought he's struggling to kind of get used to this new lifestyle and, you know, concerned about finances because we were, you know, kind of starting over and I wasn't teaching anymore.

Sarah Gale [00:45:51] You know, we were starting over with this new endeavor and starting a farm. And he was detached. He was. Had his earbuds in a lot or he was on his phone and I would talk to him and I would say, you know, I need more. I need more of you. I need you to, I need you to be more involved when you come home and I need you to help out more and, and being, you know, an active Member of the church and being a member of the church my whole life, you know, when you go through struggles, you're taught to pray more and to read your scriptures more and, you know, all of these things.

Sarah Gale [00:46:44] And so, of course, at that time, when we were going through this challenge together in our family, that was what I wanted to do. And so, you know, we would have these talks at night after the kids would go to bed, and I would tell him these things, you know, we're going to pray together, we're going to say family prayers together. You know, not that we weren't doing it before, but, you know, I dug in and I'm like, we need to do this. This will help us get through this challenge.

Sarah Gale [00:47:18] I would tell him that I need more from him. I need him to stand, to step up, and I want him to, you know, fulfill his priesthood obligations as the priesthood holder in our home. And, you know, all the while I'm telling him these things, but he.

Sarah Gale [00:47:42] He doesn't. He doesn't. He's not fully engaged in that anymore, you know, and was struggling to, you know, was struggling with his testimony and. And I didn't know that he was. And so, you know, I'm. I'm saying I need this from you. And it just, you know, it was. It was a stressful time in our life, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:48:11] Yeah, that sounds really hard. And that's very common. The more the doubter questioner goes down the rabbit hole, oftentimes it triggers fear in the heart of the believing member of the relationship, and it causes them to retrench more and to demand more orthodoxy. And it can be just this negative spiral where they both are pushing each other to farther opposites, and it can be a real strain on the marriage. Did you want to add anything, Todd, about what that was like for you as she seemingly sort of tried to turn the screws more and more?

Navigating Honesty in a Mixed-Faith Marriage

Todd Gale [00:48:49] Well, we talked about this and, you know, she brings a lot of great perspective, and I really didn't fully see it, her perspective at the time. You know, I was wallowing in my own despair, so to speak, desperately trying to figure it out for my family. You know, all the while I was, you know, demands of work and, you know, everything that comes along with life. You know, sometimes I would be focusing on my research and I would lay off a little bit, and all the while I'm just the back of my mind, I'm just thinking, I've been in this church my whole life. I put my blood, sweat and tears into this.

Todd Gale [00:49:30] And. And now I'M finding this out and it's just, you know, incredibly difficult. It was an incredibly difficult time for me, for sure. And in fact, you know, it's desperately wanted to figure it out. I remember in 2017, I was on a business trip in Ohio. And when that trip was done, I made a special two hour drive to Kirtland, Ohio, in the desperate attempt to. By maybe being there, you know, I can feel that testimony. I can gain that testimony to

Sarah Gale [00:50:11] make

Todd Gale [00:50:12] it right, you know, to bring me back. And it just didn't happen, you know, it just, you know, but it's kind of crazy too. I kind of had my mind I knew what the reality was, but I'm still. And to be honest, I'm really interested in the history component of it. So I did find it interesting because I did, I did the tour with the site missionaries there, but. But that, that core issue wasn't resolved.

John Dehlin [00:50:42] Okay, wow. So you actually did a prayer as a last ditch effort to receive some sort of witness or reconciliation because you were experiencing such stress and you did it at one of the holy Mormon sites.

Todd Gale [00:50:58] Right. And like I said, I'm a validity guy. Right. So we know that many angels and Christ himself appeared to Joseph and Oliver at the Kirtland temple. And I thought, if they can receive a manifestation, at least hopefully I can get a spiritual manifestation. Right. Anyway.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] Yeah. And it didn't come for you?

Todd Gale [00:51:24] No.

Sarah Gale [00:51:24] You even, didn't you even drive to Adam on Diamond?

Todd Gale [00:51:29] No, I didn't. I didn't have time for that.

Sarah Gale [00:51:31] I thought, for some reason I thought that you had made that drive too.

Todd Gale [00:51:34] But.

Sarah Gale [00:51:36] Yeah, so then all along I'm thinking, oh, he, you know, he's a church history buff. He, you know, he can't be that close to, you know, that area and not go there. And so it was like no big deal for me. I'm just like, you know.

Todd Gale [00:51:49] Right. So from my point of view, I wasn't completely honest with my wife. I spun it to where I want to see church history strike as church history sites, which was a half truth. But I was really trying to find my testimony again or to bring it

John Dehlin [00:52:06] back and just tell us why. Why, why did you not feel like you could be totally honest? What were you, what you were. What were you fearful of, Todd?

Todd Gale [00:52:15] I felt maybe that I'm the one that's deceived. Maybe there was some sins in my life that weren't reconciled. And so the spirit was withdrawn. The fear of maybe Sarah leaving me. To be honest, this church has a clear path laid out from you from birth to, you know, it's what I think President Nelson calls now the covenant path. Right. You got your ordinances that you have to follow baptism, you know, for men, you get, you get the priesthood and there's temple, you know, I was her ticket, I guess to the celestial kingdom. Right. So there's in the mind of a Mormon, a true believe in Mormon, there's eternal consequences when a spouse that you're sealed to loses the faith, you know, and that, that fear. And again, I wasn't there at that point. I had doubts, but that was my fear of all those things.

John Dehlin [00:53:27] Yeah. We're getting some great comments from our listeners who are joining us live on Facebook. Emily writes I knew Emily. This is Emily Johnson. He I knew Todd looked familiar. This is a guy I looked up to in high school. He and Heidi Nielsen were in my ward growing up. A shout out to Heidi, who has been on Mormon stories before. We sure love her and her husband, but there she's. Emily writes they're a year older than myself in school. These are great examples of how and who to be like. As perfect members as I felt myself. Always wanting to be like them. It's beautiful to be looking up to them again all those years later for standing for truth.

John Dehlin [00:54:06] No matter how hard it is, it is healing and comforting to hear their stories. Thank you for being so brave, Todd and Sarah, I know it is not easy at all. Do you remember Emily?

Todd Gale [00:54:16] I do, so thank you. I appreciate that.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] A little character witness. Thank you Emily for reaching out. Heidi writes a different Heidi Heidi Knighton writes, I'd gone to my bishop at the time and said I was concerned with my husband and him going away from the church and he flat out told me to get a divorce. And then right after he said I told him he's full of shit because if this church was about families then why would he tell me that? So after I swore at him and yelled, I walked out of that office and then went home and told my husband to tell me more of what you're reading. I want to know.

John Dehlin [00:54:54] So that's that, you know, Heidi's sort of sharing how difficult it can be to be in a mixed faith marriage within Mormonism. Sometimes members or family members or ward members and sometimes even in laws the parents of your non believing spouse will tell you to leave your spouse as a result of this.

John Dehlin [00:55:12] So it's really complicated. Rachel writes, I'm feeling this. So thank you Rachel for chiming in. Lots of people connecting with your guys's story so far. So thank you for being willing to share.

Todd Gale [00:55:26] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [00:55:27] And by the way, it sounds like the arc of this story is going to be how Joseph Bishop saved our marriage.

Todd Gale [00:55:34] You know, John, it's. I mean, we're going to get to it, but that was, that was Sarah's.

Sarah Gale [00:55:40] Excuse me one second.

Todd Gale [00:55:41] The son came out here in Arizona, and so we were shutting the blinds ever so slightly.

John Dehlin [00:55:47] No worries.

Todd Gale [00:55:50] That issue, I mean, that for our personal sake, was in a sense, a blessing. It finally, that issue, and I guess we'll get to it, was Sarah's. That was the straw that broke that Kimmel's back for her. And it gave me finally the green light just to have courage and say, yes, these are my concerns, too.

John Dehlin [00:56:18] Okay. Yeah. So let's get to the story. So, Todd, what else do you want to tell about your background before we talk about the Joseph Bishop introduction to your faith crisis? Did you want to tell anything about family members struggling before?

Family Experiences with Sexuality and Church Teachings

Todd Gale [00:56:42] Yes, I'm going to talk about my family, but I'm going to just emphasize that I love my parents and I honor them and I cherish them. And what I'm going to just share is just my feeling, and it's no reflection on them at all or my sister. So one thing that I come to realize is, and I'll just touch on this slightly, is my. I have a brother.

Todd Gale [00:57:12] He passed away in 2005. He took his own life. And he, like me, grew up in the church, was strong, went on a mission. But after his mission, you know, he, you know, in the church's eyes, made some wrong decisions and got into alcohol and some substance abuse, and life became hard for him. And speaking to my original comments of how the church can sometimes be dangerous for members, in my view, my brother felt guilt that he let his family down because he, you know, was post mission, a couple years went by, wasn't on the covenant path, so to speak.

Todd Gale [00:58:14] And the expectation is you get married and you get married in the temple and you do it fairly quickly after your mission or the progression. And, you know, it didn't happen. And he felt that he let us down. Me, my parents, my sisters, or just family in general. And I think in my opinion, that fear or that, that guilt, that strain comes from the teachings of the church.

Todd Gale [00:58:44] I do, because they set that bar high. The expectations are there. And I think that's one of the things that was a downfall for him, that guilt that he felt. I think I'm just recently come to grips with that. I don't think I properly mourned the mourned properly, the death of my brother. He passed away in 2005.

Todd Gale [00:59:17] And in my opinion, too, I think the church teaches members, if someone is not keeping all the commandments or doing the right things, perhaps you need to distance yourself from them. I think there's some teachings out there that support that. And in a way, I distance myself from him. And perhaps it was for that reason, and I have guilt for that, and I need to come to grips with that and reconcile that with myself.

Todd Gale [00:59:52] And I love my brother, and I miss him a lot. And it's just a shame that he's not here because you think I'm sarcastic. He's the king of it. Maybe I got it from him, but he was funny guy, loved by everybody, by his peers, and his life just came short.

Todd Gale [01:00:16] So in that aspect, one of my concerns I have with the church, it creates guilt on people who don't follow that path. There's no wiggle room, and it puts guilt on people.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] Another several listeners, Todd, Victoria, Ivana, you know, Heidi, myself, we all express our condolences at that loss and our gratitude for your willingness to be vulnerable about that. And, you know, I know. I see Sam Young has joined us.

John Dehlin [01:00:59] Shout out to Sam Young and McKenna Denson and everyone behind Protect Others Children and everyone who, in their own way, is battling, you know, the shame and guilt messages that the church conveys, or the issues around sexuality, whether it be masturbation or pornography or LGBT stuff or even just law of chastity, any of these standards around sexuality that are just, you know, we're all for healthy sexuality and healthy, happy living, but somehow these standards, the way they're implemented, the way that the worthiness interviews cause people to feel guilt and shame and to feel horrible about themselves, and all this stuff can lead to tragedy. Not to mention the LGBT stuff, which is just completely tragic, with all the suicide rates and depression and anxiety rates around how the church handles matters of sexuality.

John Dehlin [01:01:57] We just send you our love, our gratitude for being willing to talk about this and stand with you in our concerns and hopes that the Mormon Church will make important changes in these areas. Thanks for talking about it.

Sarah Gale [01:02:14] Can I add something to that?

John Dehlin [01:02:16] Please.

Sarah Gale [01:02:18] Todd and I were married in 2003, and when I joined the family, you know, Todd's brother was, you know, had been dealing with his challenges for many years. And so, you know, I'm getting to know the family and I'm learning, you know, meeting the family members.

Sarah Gale [01:02:46] There were many times when we were dating that there would be family get togethers and Todd's brother wasn't there. And I remember at that time not really understanding why he wasn't there. You know, I would get bits and pieces here and there, you know, of what, you know, what was going on.

Sarah Gale [01:03:10] But, you know, I remember one time we were. Before we were married, we were just out driving around, and I don't think I had ever met his brother yet. And I remember Todd drove me to his apartment and we didn't go in.

Sarah Gale [01:03:32] And I remember him, you know, you know, kind of trying to explain, but not really fully understanding, you know, what. What their family, you know, dynamic was. And, you know, I think back then, you know, I think now back to that time. And, you know, just to kind of echo what Todd said, I think a lot of that came from, you know, what he said, feeling like he had to distance himself from that situation. And, you know, even, you know, that was a really, really hard time to go through when he died.

Sarah Gale [01:04:33] And it's a thing that I think has just been really painful for all of us and his family members. And because of that, because it's so painful, it's really something that isn't talked about. And I often think, and especially lately, our youngest, I mean, sorry, our oldest child was just a baby at that time. And so I've thought a lot about wishing, you know, that.

Sarah Gale [01:05:18] Or not wishing, but just feeling bad that. That my kids. That our kids have grown up not knowing their uncle. And I guess that's what I wanted to add.

Todd Gale [01:05:38] Just.

Sarah Gale [01:05:40] Just, you know, wishing that things could be different, I guess. And that's all.

John Dehlin [01:05:52] Yeah, we're so sorry. And then, Todd, you also. Did you have another family member that, you know, that comes into the story a little bit in an indirect way?

Todd Gale [01:06:07] Yes, I have a cousin who I totally admire. He was a great guy. Back in 1990, he turns papers in for a mission farewell, which I went to. Went to the mtc, and a few weeks later, a few weeks later, he admitted that he was gay. And I recently talked to him about it, and I had to show me his box. And to me, that's just another example how the church, it's not a safe place for those individuals and also their families.

Todd Gale [01:06:55] This occurred, you know, almost 30 years ago. And I think the church was more coarse back then pertaining to this than it is perhaps now. Maybe not. But, you know, it was just tough. He was treated badly. He was treated badly by his NTC presidents. He was treated badly by his bishop and stake president and told the state president, basically told his parents. My Aunt and uncle, you have a choice. It's either the church and its doctrine and teachings or your son. And gratefully my uncle said, I'm choosing my son 1000%.

Todd Gale [01:07:37] And so it shouldn't have to be that way. You know, it from my perspective, I was about 14, and I didn't know the whole story, just bits and pieces. And to my shame, you know, I kind of did what I was kind of taught, you know, that that was wrong.

Todd Gale [01:07:59] And, you know, I subconsciously, perhaps separated myself from him where I should have been supportive and loving, but I wasn't. And I just, you know, I was a kid, and that's what I was taught. And that's just another result of my journey these last couple years, that the church to some is not healthy, it's not safe, and, you know, it's damaging to individuals and families. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:31] And I want to offer you consolation there. One of my favorite quotes that I learned from Oprah was, when you know better, you do better. Right?

Todd Gale [01:08:39] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:08:40] And so we all, you know, the self on the shelf folks, Tanner and Samantha, at least they've made popular this saying, I'm sorry for what I did when I was Mormon. I think we all have behaviors and thoughts and feelings and things we've said that we wish we could take back, but we were all doing it as sincere believers at the time. And so, yeah, we're all responsible and we should learn from our mistakes. And in some sense, we all, to some extent, did good things because we were Mormon or are Mormon, and we did bad things because we were or are Mormon. And we came by all that honestly, you know, all of us just trying to do what was best. Right.

Todd Gale [01:09:30] Yes.

Sarah Gale [01:09:30] I just want to say that I think, like Todd has used the word, he's evolved in this whole process for him, and he had the opportunity because it's been on his mind a lot with his cousin. He had the opportunity to recently talk to him and just tell him, you know, I'm so sorry for if there was anything that I said or did back then, you know, you know, I'm sorry that you had to go through this. And I just was grateful that I could be able to use that experience to teach our own children, you know, and we have been teaching our kids these things that we have learned but have come to realize are damaging. And we're taking advantage of these opportunities of things that we've learned, like that specific example to teach our kids to hopefully, you know, be better.

John Dehlin [01:10:56] Yeah, just be better, and we'll get to that. We'll definitely get to that at the end.

Todd Gale [01:11:01] One quick story, John on this Let me just tell you how awesome my cousin is. You know, when he left the church and came out, I and my me personally, I can speak for myself, didn't see him. He moved to Northern California. He started his own life, and I didn't see him for years and years. But in 2005, when my brother passed away, guess who came from Northern California to Mesa for the funeral? My cousin. That's just now. It just speaks volumes of the character and the kind of person that he

Sarah Gale [01:11:40] was despite after everything he went through,

Todd Gale [01:11:44] after everything he went through. And he came to my brother's funeral and it just speaks volumes of the character and the kind of person that he is.

Learning About Joseph Bishop's History

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1038

John Dehlin [00:00:31] All right, well, let's jump back into the story then. And we want to thank everyone who shared. We've got 18 shares, so 18 of you. We've got 173 people now joining us live. 18 of you have shared this on your walls. We're going to now get into the Joseph Bishop stuff in depth.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] So if any of you are willing to share this episode on your walls and just let people know. We're about to go into the story of what it's like to be active Mormons in the same ward as accused sexual predator Joseph Bishop.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] Having your kids pass the sacrament to him, having. Seeing him in the Sunday school presidency, seeing him not experience church discipline, all while you see people like Sam Young of the Protect LDS Children movement getting excommunicated. If any of you are willing to share this episode on your walls with friends, family, we'd love to have as many people listen to the story as possible.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] So please share if you can. And thanks to everyone who shared it so far. All right, so, Todd, let's talk. Let's just jump into the Joseph Bishop stuff now. So according to your story, you will have been questioning your faith for a couple years, trying to communicate that with Sarah ineffectively, and your marriage is getting tougher and tougher. Tougher. Let's talk about the day you learned about Joseph Bishop.

Todd Gale [00:01:59] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] And how you learned about it and what that was like. What you learned and what that was like. There are people who have never heard of Joseph Bishop, so we want you to give background for those who have heard.

Todd Gale [00:02:14] So Joseph Bishop is a.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] We'll start with how you heard. Tell to start with how you heard.

Todd Gale [00:02:20] So, on Facebook, I think it was. It was Ryan McKnight shared the audio and. Or you and him did a impromptu podcast on it. So, honestly, I knew who he was, but I wasn't registering the name because we were fairly new in the ward.

Todd Gale [00:02:46] But in the captions of that social media post, it was a man who lived in Chandler, Arizona. And so that kind of narrowed down for us. Like, that's interesting. That's in my town. And then nuggets of information that he was a mission president in Argentina and MTC presidents in Provo. And that kind of, again, narrowed it down that those things were registering in my mind. And then we. Then I don't know if we did it together or me individually at first, but I started listening to the audio of it, and as soon as I heard his voice, I told myself, that is him. That's the guy in my ward.

Todd Gale [00:03:31] So I Think, Sarah. I'm a little fuzzy on this one, but I think you. Did you find it individually or did I share it with you?

Sarah Gale [00:03:39] You texted me about it and you just said, is this guy in our ward? And the name didn't register to me, but as soon as I saw a picture of his face, I knew it was him. We had been in the ward for, at that time, six months, seven months or so. And

John Dehlin [00:04:04] had you guys had any interactions with him as ward members? Did you know him on a personal level?

Sarah Gale [00:04:09] We didn't know him on a personal level, but I knew who he was. He was a member of the ward that you could tell was highly admired. Everyone knew him. There were always handshakes and hugs before sacrament meeting and handshakes and hugs after sacrament meeting. He would bear his testimony regularly. And I remember commenting to Todd a few times before any of this came out. When he would bear his testimony, it just kind of always rubbed me a little bit the wrong way. Like, his testimonies were very kind of boastful. He would talk about people that he

John Dehlin [00:05:13] knew kind of in a name dropping, in a name dropping higher ups.

Sarah Gale [00:05:18] Um, and, you know, I mean, do

John Dehlin [00:05:21] you remember who he talked about knowing?

Todd Gale [00:05:23] I remember him saying, Harold B. Lee Spencer W. Kimball. Like, he rubbed shoulders and worked with them.

Sarah Gale [00:05:30] And, you know, a lot of times I would feel like when he would bear his testimony, it was like he was kind of giving his resume, you know, and just not what a testimony is supposed to be. And I never, you know, came away from him sharing his testimony, having my testimony strengthened, you know, and I remember commenting to Todd a few times about that, that it just kind of, you know, was not the time or place. And, you know, so, yeah, although we didn't have a personal relationship with him, definitely well known member of the ward and admired.

Church Leadership's Response to the Allegations

John Dehlin [00:06:13] And you bring up something really, really crucial. You know, all of us are dumbfounded at how, you know, Sam Young could be excommunicated for talking about these issues, and Joseph Bishop could go unpunished for sexual assault and rape. And we know that over a couple decades, at least three different general authorities were informed about him, that the sexual assault took place while he was president of the MTC in Provo in the 80s. There was this room in the basement that he would take McKenna to and assault her. He's admitted all this apparently, but the church has known about it. And yet he was never excommunicated, as far as we know, Never disciplined.

John Dehlin [00:06:57] Remains an active current member to this day. If all that is true, it has to be that his personal connections with top church leaders, and possibly there's always the possibility that he received his own second anointing as a, you know, as a MTC president, as a mission president. And if that's true, how do you simultaneously either be so close to someone as a top church leader that you would excommunicate them, you might have bias against ever punishing someone because you're close to them, or if they received the second anointing, which is supposed to be inspired of God, where you're given this special ordinance, usually by a first presidency member or an apostle, where your promise that you're calling an election is made sure in the celestial kingdom.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] How does it reflect on you as an apostle or a first presidency member to have given that ordinance to someone when later on they. They turn out to be a sexual predator? How do you excommunicate them or remove them if you previously told them that they're calling an election as made sure. Now, of course, we're speculating about all this because we don't know whether he, like Tom Phillips, you know, like Hans Mattson, we don't know whether Joseph Bishop did receive a second anointing, but these, you know, both a close relationship with top church leaders and, and, or having received the second anointing, which is likely, would possibly be some of the main reasons why the church has been hesitant to punish him. So again, I'm just, you know, I'm just speculating, but I think that's important.

Todd Gale [00:08:45] Right? I mean, and just for clarity from our point of view, in terms of his membership status, we don't know. I've asked repeatedly privately with our bishopric, and they do not comment.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] We'll get to that in the story for sure. Right?

Todd Gale [00:09:05] Yes.

Sarah Gale [00:09:06] So before the news came out, we feel like it's important to mention that again, a lot of this is speculating, but definitely a part of the, of the timeline that's worth mentioning. Also his son and his son's family is also in our ward. And at the time the son was serving as first counselor in the bishopric.

Sarah Gale [00:09:42] And kind of out of the blue with, you know, in our area, typically bishoprics serve for two years. Counselors or, sorry, counselors serve for two years. Typically they're in for two years and then they'll release both. It doesn't always work that way, but a lot of times in this area, counselors will serve for a few years. They'll release them and call too new just to serve with the same bishop.

Sarah Gale [00:10:24] And it just was unusual. That kind of out of the blue, in January, he was released, but they didn't release the other counselor. It was just him. And he really had only been in for a short period of time in relation to how long they do serve typically.

John Dehlin [00:10:43] Okay, so let's follow the chronology of the story. So you hear about this Todd, and you reach out to Sarah and you guys are like, oh my gosh, I just heard about this recording and this victim and this perpetrator, they're in my ward, right?

Sarah Gale [00:11:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:04] And so, Todd, what started happening? What wheels started turning in your mind? What was your reaction to this?

Todd Gale [00:11:14] I was dumbfounded. I was just floored. I was speechless. Of all the wards in this world, it has to be my ward. You know, I mean, I was just thinking, what are the odds? You know, and then the thoughts of, okay, what interactions have I had or my family has had with this man? And so we asked for kids and we confirmed that, like I mentioned earlier, that he has substituted for them. And so I, to make sure, I went to my phone, went to LDS Tools and to check his calling and he was in the Sunday School presidency. So as we all know, you know, if the teacher doesn't show up on a Sunday, typically the member of the Sunday School presidency will fill in on the fly, you know, and that happened at least once. And so

Sarah Gale [00:12:13] the reason why we mentioned, why I mentioned the sun being released was because that was something during that first couple of weeks when the news was out and we were, you know, trying to.

Todd Gale [00:12:26] Well, the sun was released in January.

Sarah Gale [00:12:29] Yeah.

Todd Gale [00:12:29] So the recording came out in March.

Sarah Gale [00:12:32] Yeah, so. So that was in January. And that was something that I had mentioned to Todd. You know, after these first couple of weeks, like reading news reports and listening to the recording and all of that, I was like, you know, do you think that that had something to do? Do you think that the church knew? Do you think that they knew that this was happening and this was kind of a way for them to.

Todd Gale [00:13:00] Carefully orchestrated events maybe?

Sarah Gale [00:13:03] Yeah. And I mentioned that to him, you know, during that first week or two. And I, you know, we talked about it briefly, just like, you know, well, maybe, but, you know, there's no way of knowing that. And at that time, there was very little news about it other than that the recording had come out. You know, that was leaked and there weren't really a whole lot of, you know, things kind of started coming after that. Right. Church made statements, you know, the, you know, chronological order of how things happened kind of came after the weeks, you know, after the recording was Leaked so and so.

John Dehlin [00:13:53] But, Todd, you were able to confirm in LDS tools that this was the guy in your ward. You were able to confirm that he was still in the Young Men in the Sunday School presidency at the time.

Todd Gale [00:14:04] I knew from conversations with. I had with ward members. I knew he was the president of Weber State university in the 70s. I knew he was the MTC president in the mid-80s. And that's corroborated with the recording of what he expressed to McKenna of his professional career, you know, Weber State NTC, and all the dots lined up. So I knew it was him.

John Dehlin [00:14:31] And so. And so you start feeling concerned and you tell your wife and you guys are both. And you both had sort of the spirit of discernment. The guy had always made you feel a little bit uncomfortable, right?

Todd Gale [00:14:47] Right.

Sarah Gale [00:14:47] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:14:48] Okay.

Sarah Gale [00:14:51] I was just gonna say I kind of have always. I don't know. You know, you hear this a lot. Women have an intuition, and I've always relied on that, and it really has never steered me wrong. And I had a feeling about him from the beginning, and, yeah, it was my something in my intuition telling me, you know, something's not right.

John Dehlin [00:15:18] Yeah. So what'd you do? What'd you guys do? Take us through the story of how you. How you reacted and responded. Well, what was that first Sunday, like, where you go back to church and you. Oh, and you're saying his son was in your bishopric at the time?

Sarah Gale [00:15:34] No, he had been released January.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] Okay. So right around that time. Right around the time that this comes out. Right. Right before, as if the church had known this was coming, they released the son? We're speculating, but, yeah, that's probably long before the. You would have expected this counselor to be released?

Sarah Gale [00:15:57] Yeah. Yeah, it seems to kind of, you know, there's, you know, you think there's something fishy about that now, knowing, you know, there's no way to prove. But they also kind of, you know, he was given a new calling, and it's a calling I've never heard of before. It almost seems like a calling that was just kind of created for him. I don't know. Again, speculation, but it's a calling in the stake that just. Again, I've never heard of it before.

John Dehlin [00:16:31] The son was released from the bishopric and giving a given a special calling in the stake.

Sarah Gale [00:16:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:37] And what was the calling?

Todd Gale [00:16:39] I don't even know. It was more of a PR type.

Sarah Gale [00:16:43] Yeah. Like a church public relations type.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] Okay.

Todd Gale [00:16:47] Was it like a true ecclesiastical type thing?

John Dehlin [00:16:52] This is the same son who later was accused of compiling this affidavit on behalf of the church and their lawyers to try and malign McKenna. Right.

Sarah Gale [00:17:01] No, it's.

Todd Gale [00:17:02] Different son.

Sarah Gale [00:17:03] Different.

John Dehlin [00:17:04] Are there two sons in your ward?

Sarah Gale [00:17:06] No one in our ward.

Todd Gale [00:17:08] My understanding that attorney man is. I don't. I think he's in Utah, but he's definitely not in our ward. So a different son is in our ward. Yeah.

Attending Church with Joseph Bishop

John Dehlin [00:17:17] Okay. All right. So what was it like that first Sunday that you see Joseph Bishop in your ward after learning about him and what his background really was?

Todd Gale [00:17:29] Funny story is, I don't know. I don't know what day of the week that that recording came out, but ironically, that weekend of that week, we were scheduled to go on a little anniversary trip, so. Which would be like a Friday through Sunday situation. So we went to Waco, Texas, to the, you know, the silos. She always wanted to go there, so I sprung that surprise. But during that week, we were listening individually to recordings, and there were.

Sarah Gale [00:18:01] During that week, after the video or the recording was released, there were statements made by the church. There were. I don't remember exactly when the dossier was released. I don't know if it was that first week. I can't remember. But I was def. I was really, really, like, bothered by it and the protective mother in me. And I've always considered myself an advocate for children.

Sarah Gale [00:18:39] I've been a teacher for many, many, many years. And something just. I just. Something just hit me to my core with this, and I just could not. I was laying awake at night, not able to sleep, thinking about it, and it just really consumed all of my thoughts that week. And then we had this anniversary trip, and, you know, so we, you know, this was an effort because our. We had been kind of struggling with our relationship, and we were trying to kind of get back on track. And so we went on this anniversary trip, and we actually ended up spending the whole first day of our trip in the hotel because I just was.

Sarah Gale [00:19:42] It was consuming everything in me. So, you know, we were in the hotel and I. I had found on my own podcast that you did soon after the recording was released with Ryan McKnight, and that was the first time I had ever heard of you. I didn't know who you were.

Sarah Gale [00:20:04] And I had listened to that and watched that podcast. And so I mentioned it to Todd, and to my surprise, he had already watched it, too. And so basically, long story short,

Todd Gale [00:20:25] I finally.

Sarah Gale [00:20:27] Yeah, he was able to.

Todd Gale [00:20:28] All that time, if any time to do it, it was then because she was. I think she had her eyes have opened. She was in a position to see what was going on. We had a mutual person that we listened to. You, John and I finally just opened up.

Sarah Gale [00:20:51] Yeah, the floodgates opened.

John Dehlin [00:20:53] Okay, so you. So, Sarah, you watched the podcast not knowing that he had been listening Mormon stories for a long time?

Sarah Gale [00:21:02] Yeah, I didn't have any idea. And so I was just looking for information about Joseph Bishop.

John Dehlin [00:21:09] That's awesome.

Sarah Gale [00:21:09] Your podcast popped up and I ended up watching it probably the day before we left to go on our trip. So when we got there, I, you know, I was like, you know, I found this and I was telling him some things that I had heard that you guys were talking about. And he was like, I could see, you know, kind of while I'm telling him this, I can see his, you know, his wheels turning in his brain. And then he's like, I'm going to tell you something, you know, and he said, I've watched that too. And he told me who you were, and he told me, you know, that what you do. And, you know, he said that he's, listen, he's watched and listened to many of your podcasts and that it's really helped him. And anyway, he, you know, he told me everything.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] Okay, and so what was that like? So this. So, first of all, Sarah, what was that like to hear that your husband was in a full blown faith crisis?

Sarah Gale [00:22:16] It was a shock. And. But honestly, most of what I was feeling on that day was just. I just felt so bad for him that he was going through that for so long by himself. And I just felt I could be mad at him, but I wasn't. I wasn't mad at him. I just, I just, I, like, my heart just ached for what he was going through and that he couldn't tell me and that I wasn't in a place where I could be a safe place for him to tell me all of the things that he had been going through for the last two years. And so really that's mostly what I was, you know, feeling at the time was just, you know, feeling just awful that he had to go through that by himself.

John Dehlin [00:23:29] Hmm. Well, kudos to you, Sarah, for having an open heart and loving your husband. Sometimes I think one of the saddest things I see is when people love the church more than their own spouse or love their beliefs more than their spouse. And it sounds like you chose to love your spouse over your cherished orthodox beliefs.

Sarah Gale [00:23:57] Yeah. I don't know if, if this didn't happen with Joseph Bishop. I don't know, if I, you know, where. I don't know where we would be would be right now. So I'm grateful for that because I feel like this last almost year that we've been going through this together, our marriage is stronger than it ever has been. And I've seen sides of Todd that, that I have never seen before in our 15, almost 16 years of marriage.

Todd Gale [00:24:39] And,

Sarah Gale [00:24:42] you know, I'm grateful. Although it's, it's. It's been tough. I'm grateful for, for that happened that day and that we could be able to grow together and not apart.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] And that's what, you know, that's why Margi and Natasha Helfer Parker and I started the Mormon Faith Crisis Project, or the Gift of the Mormon Faith crisis project@mormonfaithcrisis.com because we, you know, we've been helping so many people in the faith crisis. We saw this pattern over time that while it can. A faith crisis can destroy a marriage, it can wreck a family, it can lead to suicide. If it's handled in the right way with the right people, with the right support, it can actually strengthen your marriage, make you a better parent, improve your mental health and make you happier.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] And so that's why we named it the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. And I'm so happy to hear that was the result as well. So, Todd, what was that like for you to be able to get that off your chest, that thing you'd been struggling with privately and to have your wife show that she loved you and cared about you? What was that like for you?

Todd Gale [00:25:58] It was transformative, I guess probably the best word. This weight has been lifted. You know, I'm a stubborn guy that maybe by nature I just, I internalize a lot. I don't share my feelings that well in general. And if anything that I needed to share would had to have been this trial that I've been going through for all these years. And I should have done it earlier, but I'm grateful for the opportunity that presented itself.

Todd Gale [00:26:35] And to Sarah's point, it was a blessing in a sense, because I think she was in the position to hear what I'm truly hear what I'm saying and feel what I'm saying because I think oftentimes with members, if they're not in that place, your cries will fall on deaf ears.

Todd Gale [00:27:02] So to your question, it was a huge release and I'm so looking forward in moving forward. We can grow our relationship even more. Our family can grow. And you know, this is just. Today is just one more step for us to move on and to grow and hopefully just share our stories with others that they can benefit from and for the church to please be better

John Dehlin [00:27:29] and be honest, and we'll end with that sentiment. But, yeah, it must have been a huge relief for you and so many people. It's hard to know what the exact response is, but it is common for a spouse who really loves their spouse, who's believing, for the believing spouse to feel that sense of remorse and sadness and empathy. And I'm glad Sarah followed that route. And, Todd, I'm glad you got that relief.

John Dehlin [00:28:01] Sometimes you find out your spouse doesn't believe, and you were scared to tell them you didn't believe. But then you find out they're actually on the same page. But sometimes it wrecks the marriage. So it's kind of like spinning the roulette wheel as to what the result is. But I'm glad it was so positive for you guys. All right, so let's talk about how you. What you did over the subsequent months as you were watching all this unfold. How did you handle this in your ward, with your leaders, with your family? How did this proceed?

Meeting with Ward and Stake Leadership

Todd Gale [00:28:36] Well, after our trip, we. I don't remember the date exactly, but we first, Sarah and I met with our bishop of our ward.

Sarah Gale [00:28:44] And so this was, I think, two weeks after the recording had been released.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] Okay. You actually called a meeting with your bishop. How'd that go?

Sarah Gale [00:28:55] The first Sunday after we were not at church. The following Sunday was when we went to see the bishop.

John Dehlin [00:29:01] Okay, how was that?

Todd Gale [00:29:05] Interesting. I came with the position that we, Sarah and I, have the right to know. We are members of this board, and we have the right to know the status, the membership status of this man. I relate to him, our bishop, you know, that he has, at least on one occasion, substituted second hour. And we're concerned about the safety of our children and the children of our ward. And so we asked him, what do you know about these allegations? And he didn't know much of anything.

Sarah Gale [00:29:44] He really hadn't. I don't think, honestly, he had even listened to the recording. We mentioned the recording, and we said, you know, this is damning, you know.

Todd Gale [00:29:56] Yeah, if you listen to it, it is damning as to what has happened.

Sarah Gale [00:30:03] And he. I don't think he had. I think he. He was aware enough that he. He knew what we were talking about, but I don't think he had listened to the recording, and he hadn't spoken with the stake president about it at all. And this was two weeks later. So that was frustrating to us.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] Yeah. So that is deeply troubling if it's true. We know that the church has known about Joseph Bishop for decades. We know that several general authorities were involved. And we know that, like from Benji Schwimmer's interview, that if you just confess same sex attraction in Mormonism, there's an asterisk in your name. If you've never had any, you know, sexual interactions or romantic interactions with the gay person. As a gay person, even if you just say, hey, Bishop, I'm same sexually attracted, that can make you vulnerable to having an asterisk put by your name on your church records that prohibits you from working with youth or from other callings. We know from Benjy Schwim and others that that's the church way. The church thinks that it's protecting women and children and other people. And yet Joseph Bishop, who's had multiple allegations of sexual assault and harassment,

Sarah Gale [00:31:28] where

John Dehlin [00:31:28] we know general authorities knew about it for decades, no such asterisk that we're aware of was ever put on his record. And even the bishop was not warned by a stake president and or church leaders who clearly knew who was in this ward because they're releasing his son as soon as this gets out, which is also problematic.

John Dehlin [00:31:53] Responding to the press, not to protecting the members. They're keeping all this information, the stake president, the general authorities, they're keeping the information from the bishop and from the ward members, such that people can't know who's in their ward and they can't protect their family members and ward members.

John Dehlin [00:32:15] That's outrageous that the bishop didn't know what was going on, that he's learning this through Mormon Stories podcast and through you guys. Instead of the leaders being proactive and warning their ward members about our legitimate threat to their children, instead of a false threat of some random gay person that is reporting same sex attraction, which has no scientific, empirical connection to abuse of children of any kind. Isn't that kind of outrageous that your bishop didn't even know and wasn't warned by the general authorities and stake president?

Todd Gale [00:32:57] Well, I agree. I mean, I've served as an executive secretary in previous wards, and my understanding the term is called an annotation on a member's record. If there's an annotation on the record. To your point, John, you know, they are not to have callings with youth. And so there, you know, obviously there wasn't an annotation on his record when our bishop issued the calling. You know, technically, before we got on the Ward. So, to your point, Salt Lake did not communicate to the local leaders about anything.

John Dehlin [00:33:36] McKenna. We want to thank McKenna Denison for joining us on this live broadcast. She writes that Bishop had already spoken to McKenna and the stake president. So what McKenna seems to be suggesting is that your bishop maybe was playing dumb. And we'll ask McKenna. I just asked McKenna for clarification there, but McKenna is saying that the bishop had already spoken to her and the stake president before they had spoken with you. Is that something you were aware of?

Todd Gale [00:34:09] No, we don't know.

Sarah Gale [00:34:10] Yeah, because we, you know, like I said, we were out of town the first weekend. The next opportunity that we could meet with him was the following Sunday. And so really, it had been about two weeks since the recording was released.

John Dehlin [00:34:24] Okay, well, McKenna just clarified. She is definitely saying that the bishop knew what had happened between her and Joseph Bishop prior to your meeting with him, that McKenna herself had spoken to him several times, and that according to McKenna, he pretended not to know when he spoke with you. That's what McKenna is saying.

Sarah Gale [00:34:47] It makes sense. You know, I don't want to, you know, say either way, but definitely we

Todd Gale [00:34:53] just want to be careful from our point of view. We're just.

John Dehlin [00:34:55] No, I'm just saying it's what this is, what McKenna is claiming.

Sarah Gale [00:35:00] Yeah. So that's true.

John Dehlin [00:35:02] That's even so. I mean, I guess that negates maybe he was warned. But then he. Then, if that's true, he didn't do anything to protect the members that we're aware of, and he's deceiving Ward members about it, which is also problematic.

Sarah Gale [00:35:17] Yeah, also in that. That meeting with him, we were told that he wasn't. He was kind of in a holding pattern, kind of as. He didn't use those words, but he was waiting for direction from the state president as of what to do and where to go.

Todd Gale [00:35:38] At that point, he said that our state president is taking. I don't know how you phrased it, but he's taking care of this issue. He's in charge of this issue that our bishop is not. It's being handled fully by our state

Sarah Gale [00:36:02] president and that he would hopefully. I remember him something about the state president was out of town and that he would be in communication with him, you know, because we were not. We weren't satisfied with what we were hearing. And so we wanted some. We wanted a plan. We wanted some answers as to what was going to be different in our ward moving forward and how we could be, you know, sure that our kids would be safe. And, you know, all of those things. And really, he, you know, there was no plan moving forward. We asked, is he even. Are you going to release him?

Sarah Gale [00:36:52] We asked if he was going to be released from his calling, and he wouldn't answer that. He said, you know, I don't know. And we said, if anything, if you can't do anything yet, at least release him from his calling.

Sarah Gale [00:37:11] If not, you know, to just show the members of the ward that you have the members in mind that you are keeping, you know, keeping the members in mind and just as a sign to show us members, if you can't say anything, you can release him, you know, and he wouldn't, you know, he didn't agree to that. He didn't, you know, he didn't say

Todd Gale [00:37:45] any, you know, he just kept just, basically, our Sikh president is handling this. You know, he just, he didn't want to give any. Yeah, he was just saying, president, our Sikh president's handling this, you know.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] Yeah. It's clear that Colonel McConkey and the church PR machine and area authorities would have had to have been involved. And the stake president was taking their marching orders and telling the bishop to follow his direction but not to act, you know.

Sarah Gale [00:38:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:21] Because. So, yeah, because if they release him and excommunicate him, certainly in a public way, it's almost as if they're admitting that there was a problem and that he was guilty. Right. So they're caught in this catch 22 of wanting to handle it, but not wanting to open themselves up to legal or PR ramifications. And so they're going to want to handle this discreetly.

Todd Gale [00:38:45] Right? That's a possibility.

Sarah Gale [00:38:47] Well, it's exactly. Because, I mean, we left that meeting feeling very just, you know, not. We were not satisfied and just feeling frustrated because we didn't get any answers. And I remember driving home that day, I looked on LDS tools on my phone on the way home, and his record was not showing up anymore on our LDS Tools War Directory. So that day, but the week prior, it was there.

John Dehlin [00:39:26] So either they excommunicated him or they, like, took his. Relocated his record in some way to where there'd be no evidence that he was still a member in good standing. Is that right?

Todd Gale [00:39:40] Or they can.

Sarah Gale [00:39:41] That's an easy thing to do to hide a member's record.

Todd Gale [00:39:44] You can just. It's a click of a mouse to just shield information from board members.

Sarah Gale [00:39:50] And we know that that's been done because later on, Months later, after McKenna came to our ward and a member of the Stake Presidency was involved in removing her off the stand. I know that it's an easy thing to do because that family's record was hidden right that day almost or soon after their record was hidden off the ward directory.

John Dehlin [00:40:23] Which family?

Todd Gale [00:40:26] We're jumping ahead a little bit, but

Sarah Gale [00:40:27] the member of the stake presidency that helped escort McKenna off of the stand.

John Dehlin [00:40:35] Okay, so you're saying that there are other instances of you seeing the church removing evidence of membership from LDS tools for whatever reason they want to.

Sarah Gale [00:40:46] Yeah. And that one, I mean, it was hidden for a short period of time and now it's back.

Joseph Bishop's Membership Status and Continued Attendance

John Dehlin [00:40:53] Okay.

Todd Gale [00:40:54] All right.

John Dehlin [00:40:55] Okay. So. Okay, so you notice that after your meeting with your bishop where he's non committal and pretends like he's uninformed and unaware, all of a sudden, Joseph Bishop's membership record mysteriously disappears without any notification to the ward or stake members or any explanation.

Todd Gale [00:41:17] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:41:17] All right, what happens next?

Todd Gale [00:41:19] The bishop in that interview with us. Not interview, but meeting with us. He invited me to meet with our state president. So I took it. I took the opportunity so well and

Sarah Gale [00:41:31] I, you know, he wanted to go right away. And I, you know, all of this was really, I mean, I was conflicted because, you know, all of this other stuff about the church that I didn't know about, I had just been told by my husband, right. And I was in that, you know, that mode of like, what am I going to do with all this? You know, and so I'm still in the middle of this, you know, feeling, you know, rock to my core about what's going on with Joseph Bishop and what I'm seeing firsthand happening right in my ward. And statements that the church made that were really troubling because they were implying that McKenna was not telling the truth.

Sarah Gale [00:42:23] And the dossier that was released about her telling very personal things about her life in an effort to make her look not credible. And these things I'm dealing with. And at the same time, I'm going through this with, you know, it's just kind of all a big jumble. And I forgot where I was going with that.

John Dehlin [00:42:49] So the stake president called you guys in.

Sarah Gale [00:42:54] I was hesitant for Todd to go meet with the stake president because I just was like, you know, let's just wait. We just need to, like, I'm dealing with all of this, and it was just a lot. And so it took him, I think, about a month before he went. So it was about, probably a month later before he made an appointment and went to see the stake president.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] Okay.

Todd Gale [00:43:20] So I alone went to see our stake president. And it was basically the same conversation I had with our bishop, you know, giving him the story of, we're in the ward, you know, we're troubled by this news. Our son, you know, the story that I had with my son, him being the substitute one time, and I asked the question, stake president, what is the membership status of this man? And his comment was, sorry, Brother Gail, I can't comment.

Todd Gale [00:43:54] I can't comment. And I asked why. And I was polite. I just said, I feel, president, I have the right to know. I strongly believe in the safety of my kids and the kids on my ward. And it's important that we as members of the ward know the status of this membership.

Todd Gale [00:44:17] And, you know, it's. I've listened to the recording, and it's very damning. And I need to know what his membership status is. From my point of view, I thought that's a very appropriate question I can ask because I'm in the Lord. It's not like I'm some random member in a different stake. You know, I have the right to know because he is in my midst every. Every Sunday and around children, you know, so he wouldn't answer. He said, I remember the phrase he used was the priesthood keys. Don't worry, Brother Gail, the priesthood keys are. Are at work or something to that effect. You know, it's, you know, will work out.

John Dehlin [00:45:07] Yeah. And that's kind of like, these are not the droids you're looking for. Right. That's kind of, don't look at the man behind the curtain. Everything's fine.

Todd Gale [00:45:14] Or just trust. It's trust in the brethren, you know, trust in the priesthood, that it'll all

Sarah Gale [00:45:22] work out, everything's okay, It'll all work out. And, you know, in their efforts to try to help us feel better about the situation, in my opinion, all it did is just kind of make us, you know, more frustrated and more just upset about the whole situation of how they were handling it.

John Dehlin [00:45:52] So, Todd, emotionally, did you freak out? Did you get angry? Did you. Did you feel intimidated? Did you just go quiet? Did he. Did he satisfy you? Like, how did you respond?

Todd Gale [00:46:03] That's an interesting question. Ever since my evolution of things, I've always revered priesthood leadership. And I always kind of would be just a pinch, you know, nervous or scared or make sure I'm upright in my chair when I'm speaking to priesthood leader. But especially when this issue came, I just, again, I treat them with respect as a human being, but I just treat. I perceive my bishop as just A human being, just a man, no mantle. And I perceive my stake president the same way. You know, I didn't have any fear. You know, I just wanted answers.

Todd Gale [00:46:45] You know, they. I think generally priest leaders, for the most part, want to do good and try and do the best they can to do good. Not in this case, obviously, with this issue. But that fear talking to this man became no longer, you know, it just wasn't there. But I was still frustrated, you know, I didn't get in the back of my mind. I probably knew I was going to get the answer that I was looking for, but I felt I needed to try. I felt like I'm not going to be idle anymore, you know, I'm not going to be silent, you know, so it left frustrated, but not surprised.

John Dehlin [00:47:25] Okay, so what else? What else? Tell us more. What else can you tell us about the story?

Sarah Gale [00:47:34] Well, I mean, you know, really, you know, so I think he went to see the stake president in May. Like the end of May, right?

Todd Gale [00:47:45] I think so.

Sarah Gale [00:47:46] Maybe it was even the beginning of May. I can't remember. But, you know, in that time between when we met with our bishop and when he went to see the stake president, there was a, you know, at least a month.

Sarah Gale [00:48:01] It was business as usual at church. There was no mention that anything had happened. There was, you know, nothing. And, you know, in a way, I can see that they wouldn't. But at the same time, for people who are concerned, for people who. Who have worries about it, you know, it's not helpful, you know, and so there wasn't really anything again. It was just like nothing had ever happened. And so I felt like I should mention that. And then at the beginning of the summer, either the end of May or early June, they finally, after it had been months since we had met, you know, met with the bishop and asked that he would at least, if the bishop couldn't do anything else, at least release him, you know, over the pulpit so that the members of the ward would know that they're taking care of it, that they're handling the situation.

Sarah Gale [00:49:12] And it wasn't until the beginning of June they finally released the Sunday school presidency. They released the president over the pulpit we sustained. You know, they released the first counselor, but they never released him. They never spoke his name. They never anything. So the presidency was released, but there was no mention of Joseph Bishop being released that day.

John Dehlin [00:49:42] So, again, that seems super weird to me. My memories of being Mormon is that when someone's released, it's announced. And in this case, it sounds like they released Joseph Bishop without ever announcing the he was being released.

Todd Gale [00:49:56] Right. So they, they said the names of two of the three men in the presidency, the President, the first counselor, but didn't say anything about the second counselor at all in, in the release. So yes, it was very odd. You know, normally you release all three and verbally say their name and you raise your hand and say, yes, thank you for your service. You know, but his name was not mentioned at all.

John Dehlin [00:50:24] And again, that has the smell of a cover up

Todd Gale [00:50:28] possibly.

John Dehlin [00:50:32] Yeah, that's really weird. Okay, well, at least, I mean, on the one hand that's troubling and on the other hand I'm sure you were relieved.

Sarah Gale [00:50:41] Well, I mean, you know, at that point, I guess relief is not, you know, we were kind of already at, you know, at the point where frustration and kind of a little bit of anger had kind of taken over.

Todd Gale [00:51:00] So, so in full disclosure, and that's again our point of view, just to be factual, as much as possible. After the recordings came out, it came to a point where Joseph Bishop only came to sacrament and on a very few occasions came to Sunday school. And that's it, never the third hour. So.

John Dehlin [00:51:21] So he took a lower profile in the ward.

Sarah Gale [00:51:24] Yeah. And I actually think that the first few months after it was released, at least the first month he wasn't seen. But then after that he started kind of making a presence again. So I don't know exactly how long, you know, but it was, it seemed like maybe he just, you know, was laying low and then waiting for kind of everything to kind of blow over what it seemed like, you know, and then he kind of started making his presence again and, and now he, you know, he's every Sunday, you know, pretty much in sacrament meeting.

John Dehlin [00:52:14] So McKenna's asking when was he secretly released?

Sarah Gale [00:52:18] I think it was around either the end of May, we couldn't remember exactly. We think it was at the beginning of the summer. Because a lot of times bishops will release people in Arizona, I don't know what it's like in Utah, but in Arizona, the summer, it's, people leave and they're gone for weeks at a time. And so if bishops are going to release somebody, they, they usually will do it at the beginning of the summer because then depending on the calling, they don't need to call anybody. They've got some time like they don't need to call anybody right away because usually it's a skeleton crew during the summertime.

John Dehlin [00:52:57] So you're saying late spring, early summer? Possibly. But remember also McKenna's asking if you've noticed whether or not he takes the sacrament. Why don't you talk about, as I understand it, one of your sons actually had the uncomfortable job of administering the sacrament to him. Is this an okay part to tell that part of the story, or do you want to wait until that at some other point?

Sarah Gale [00:53:27] No, that's fine. So. So, you know, one thing that we feel is super important and that we have felt from the very beginning, even though I, you know, was going through this process, Todd had already been through it, and I was going through this process of being able to listen and understand and really see things for what they were in the church.

Committing to Transparency Despite Pressure

Sarah Gale [00:53:58] But one thing that we agreed that we would do from the very beginning is that we. Because we felt like we had been kept from the truth for so long, we were lied to about a lot of things about the church.

Sarah Gale [00:54:16] We were not going to do that to our children. And so we began early on, maybe April or May, talking to them about the church. And you better believe that the Joseph Bishop situation was one of the first things that we talked about. And the main reason was because he's in our ward, and we felt like it was important for them to know who he was and, you know, that they, you know, needed to be careful of him and, you know, and that kind of a thing. So they knew who he was, you know, from. They knew from the. From early on.

Sarah Gale [00:55:06] Yeah, they knew who he was. And we have two boys that are the age of passing the sacrament. And I don't know why. Maybe because I was in such a fog going through a faith crisis for those first few months, it never occurred to me to even, you know, think whether Joseph Bishop was taking the sacrament or not. It never occurred to me. But later on, you know, you know, we thought, well, why don't we ask our kids? You know, and so we asked our boys, and they were like, yeah, oh, yeah, I pass in the sacrament every Sunday.

Sarah Gale [00:55:53] And. And, you know, and then I was like, are you sure? You need to be sure, you know, are you sure? And they would describe him to a T. Who he was. They knew who he was. And. Yeah. So if they weren't the ones to pass the sacrament to him, you know, they saw, you know, the other boys, you know, do it.

Todd Gale [00:56:18] And obviously we have seen him with our own eyes as well. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] So as far as, you know, he's uninterruptedly continued. Joseph Bishop has uninterruptedly continued to take the sacrament from the time you became aware of this. Issue to the present, as far as we know.

Todd Gale [00:56:38] Yeah, especially recently because we've always watched for it.

John Dehlin [00:56:41] But yeah, I mean, so recently he has taken the sacrament.

Sarah Gale [00:56:46] Oh yeah. As

Todd Gale [00:56:50] you know, regularly.

Sarah Gale [00:56:51] Regularly, like as last Sunday, I'm sure.

John Dehlin [00:56:54] So that suggests that he's never been disciplined as far as we know, for what he did to McKenna Denson.

Sarah Gale [00:57:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:05] He remains a member in good standing.

Sarah Gale [00:57:08] Well, yeah, I mean some people that I have talked to about it will say, well, that doesn't mean anything. That he takes the sacrament. Doesn't mean anything because they can't, you know, if he wants to take the sacrament, no one's going to stop him, you know. Well, you know, that's true. But typically someone who has been, someone who has been disciplined, someone has been, you know, if you're disciplined and you're, you know, you're seeing a bishop or you know, counseling with your bishop to be able to go back into good standing, one thing that you have to do is not take the sacrament and the bishop you attention to that and that's part of your repentance process. So if he was being disciplined, he wouldn't be taking the sacrament. If he was excommunicated. I mean, why would you, why would you want to, you know, I don't know.

Todd Gale [00:58:08] And again, we don't know. It's all speculation, of course, but we don't know definitively if he's a member in good standing or not. We just know that he takes the sacrament. But everything else is speculation. I mean, I guess membership status goes,

Sarah Gale [00:58:23] I guess it's a possibility, you know, that he could have been excommunicated. And he is still.

Todd Gale [00:58:31] My understanding is if you're excommunicated, you can't take the sacrament.

Sarah Gale [00:58:35] I know, but what I'm saying is, you know, when I've tried to make that argument to other people, they use that is like an, you know, where they say, well, no one is gonna, no one can stop him from taking the sacrament. You know, if he's been excommunicated and he still wants to partake of the sacrament, he's can't, he can, no one can keep him from that. So I mean, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:59:05] Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, even if in theory, yeah, a non member can take the sacrament, but you would think there would be a very explicit, clear conversation with the bishop and the stake president where that was what he was supposed to do. I mean, if he's gonna keep attending, that suggests that he's still a believer. Right. And if he's gonna keep attending. You would think that there would be a very explicit communication between the bishop or stake president and him about what he should and shouldn't do. Yes, I know that. When I was excommunicated, I was told, you can't wear your garments anymore, you can't pay tithing. You know, they were very explicit about what I couldn't do. Why wouldn't it be the same thing with him?

Sarah Gale [00:59:48] Well, and. Yeah, and if you're a bishop sitting up on the stand who has been a part of an excommunication of someone or a discipline, you know, of someone, and you see them partaking of the sacrament, wouldn't you then go after sacraments over, have a discussion with them about it? I don't know. I have never once seen our bishop or bishopric members ever talk to him or honestly ever acknowledge that he's there. So, you know, my mind thinks, are they supposed to, you know, kind of separate themselves from him? And have they had instructions not to, you know, speak with him or publicly, you know, where people can see? I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:00:53] Yeah. And he's got to be a tar baby for the church, obviously, because you just don't want to touch it. You.

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1039

John Dehlin [00:00:31] What's it been like? And I think the most important thing, we don't want to lose perspective. The most important thing from the church's perspective and from all of our perspectives should be how do we keep the children and the youth and the adults safe? And, you know, regardless of his status as a member, you know, was the ward or stake ever pulled together and said, we have a verified, confirmed, admitted sexual predator in our midst, here's what you should all know about him. Here's how you would protect yourselves, here's what we're doing to protect you. Was there ever a conversation like that in your warder stake?

Sarah Gale [00:01:11] Never.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] And I think that's the most important thing, right? Even the United States or various states have a registry for sexual offenders where you can look up who's in your neighborhood, who lives near you so that you can protect your family. Nothing like that is, you know, has been done with the ward membership.

Sarah Gale [00:01:34] Nothing.

Visit from Area Authority and Difficult Conversations

Todd Gale [00:01:35] I think the chronologically to your comment there, the next thing to share is this past summer, we got a week notice ahead of time that our area authority 70 was coming to visit with us just the adults during third hour.

Sarah Gale [00:01:54] It was just for third hour and he wasn't visiting any other wards. He came just to our ward and

Todd Gale [00:02:03] they did a question and answer session with the adults. So in my mind, I'm thinking, great, finally going to, we're going to, we're going to talk about it. The elephant in the room, you know, we're having an Area Authority 70 here. I want to hear what they have to say. You know, are they going to your point, John, acknowledge what we have and are they going to provide steps to protect us as members of the board and stake? What measures are going to be taking place to, to prevent possibly things happen again? So that Sunday comes, I'm super excited, well, sarcastically excited, I guess, because I had a little bit of doubt as, you know, if there's true values going to come out of this. But he opened the meeting, this area authority, and just said, so, do you have any questions?

John Dehlin [00:03:04] He never mentioned Joseph Bishop or McKenna Denson.

Todd Gale [00:03:07] Never, never. From my point of view, I was wanting to so badly just start the conversation and ask poignant questions. But from my point of view, I, you know, I couldn't, I didn't, you know, I need to be in the, in the boundaries of safety. And so I didn't say a word the entire meeting. And so after some pause and no one had any questions.

Sarah Gale [00:03:32] I mean, there was a few questions about, you know, here I am thinking, okay, this is the opportunity for members who have been struggling with this. Because I can't. I can't believe that we are the only ones, you know, that have a problem or an issue with this. I can't believe that. I mean, you know, maybe we are. Maybe we're, you know, maybe we're the only ones. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] But you were hoping some members would

Sarah Gale [00:04:01] speak out, that someone would just say something, you know, and no one did, you know, I don't. Out of fear or maybe we are the only ones. Maybe we're, you know, I don't know. And no one did. And so after a short period of time, there were a few kind of, you know, unrelated questions. I don't know if people just didn't feel comfortable or what, but the, the meeting basically turned into talking about ministering and he, you know, shared faith promoting stories and that was it. And then the meeting was over and church was over, and Todd and I were.

Todd Gale [00:04:55] It was just bizarre because it was the area authority, 70 and his wife, stake president, his wife bishop and his wife, you know, all sitting in the front. And so from the beginning, it looked

Sarah Gale [00:05:07] like something meaningful, like something a big

Todd Gale [00:05:09] deal, like all hands are on deck. You know, we're going to get something meaningful here. But my interpretation of that meeting was from the area Authority's point of view, if they don't ask any questions about the elephant in the room, then I'm not going to say anything about it and I'm just going to go to preaching mode about, in this case, ministering.

Sarah Gale [00:05:33] And we left that meeting just thinking and talking on the way home. You know, it still, it just doesn't make sense that he would make this special trip to our ward, not visit any other ward. So there was no state conference going on, nothing. And to talk about ministering, that's what he came for, you know, and so, again, so frustration.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] This is really important. We, We've had Stephen Hasson on before, who talks about, you know, cults and unhealthy organizations, and he talks about the bite model, which is that, you know, cults basically control behavior, information, thoughts, and they manipulate people through emotions. That's what the bite is. And so a really important component of an unhealthy organization or cult is that they control the information, that the members have access to the thoughts.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] And it's, you know, so on the one hand, you're highlighting a real crazy scenario where there's this massive elephant in the room in your ward, because this is the ward of Joseph Bishop, the center of a national, if not international, sex scandal. Right.

John Dehlin [00:06:55] And yet everybody, and it sounds like even including you, either was ignorant. After all this national hubbub, international news stories, drama, podcasts, blogs, everything, people remained either completely ignorant that this was even going on, or they were petrified to talk about it, even when they were given a clear opportunity to bring it up. And one of our listeners actually asks, Camille asks, and I don't want to put this forward in an accusatory way, but Camille asked something that came to my mind as well. Todd and Sarah, why didn't you guys actually say something? Were you scared? Were you petrified? Were you staying quiet strategically? Why didn't you guys speak up?

Todd Gale [00:07:49] We were staying. I was staying quiet, staying quiet strategically. I wasn't ready to. To. To come out. And that's just.

Sarah Gale [00:07:58] And the main reason.

John Dehlin [00:07:59] Were you scared about something?

Sarah Gale [00:08:01] We weren't. Well, the main reason is our kids, that they're the most important thing to us. And this is a ward that we were active in, and our children are active in. And we had a daughter, our youngest daughter, who had watched her siblings and all of her cousins get baptized that was going to be baptized soon, and a son who was going to be turning 14 and have, you know, received the ordination of teacher. And we didn't want to do anything to jeopardize that for our children. So Todd, even though his feelings about the priesthood have changed, he is respectful of the priesthood, and he didn't want to do anything to jeopardize those upcoming events in our family that, you know, we didn't want to ruin that for our children. And that was the main reason why he didn't say anything, or he would have.

John Dehlin [00:09:21] Yeah. And, you know, there are some. A few commenters who are acting a little bit, I don't know, judgmental or concerned or outraged that you guys didn't speak up, I'm just gonna say, you know, who's to blame? And how can anyone stand in judgment of parents that want to protect their children?

John Dehlin [00:09:45] I mean, I think that's what this is all about. And as someone who has gone through a very public shaming with children who are still attending church, it was in many ways harmful and even devastating to my children to be caught in the middle of a public, I don't know, controversy or scandal.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] It's your friends, it's your community, it's your leaders, it's your social standing. And anyone who's going to stand in judgment of a parent who is going to choose, at least at some point, to be concerned about and or care for their children is sort of not being sensitive or respectful.

John Dehlin [00:10:34] And I think it highlights how difficult this culture is because not only Todd, were you suffering with the faith crisis for years and couldn't tell your wife. It shows how there were probably other members of your ward that wanted to speak up. But because the culture can be so punishing to people who speak out, there's so much fear and so much retribution or perceived risk of retribution that it perpetuates this culture of fear and silence, which is so powerful.

John Dehlin [00:11:12] But non Mormons just don't get it. They just don't get how punishing and toxic our culture can be to people who doubt and question.

Sarah Gale [00:11:22] Yeah, I agree with that. And thank you, John, for saying that. We appreciate that, again, our kids are the most important to us and they're kids and they don't. They don't fully understand and they don't deserve to have that, you know, retribution. And we're at a place in our life now where we feel comfortable and that time and place is different for everyone, you know, and it's not our place to judge someone else's journey. And so I appreciate you saying that.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] And for anyone who feels that righteous indignation to judge Todd or Sarah, I would just say, what have you done to speak out in your ward or your stake or on the Internet. And if you have been very vocal, can, you know, more power to you and our congratulations, but make sure you don't cast stones until you've kind of looked at your own selves and gotten your own houses in order. It's, you know, ever since my communication, people are terrified to like a Facebook post of mine or to friend me on Facebook. So the terror is real.

Sarah Gale [00:12:49] It's definitely true. I have. We both have experienced that from not only friends but family members. We've experienced that from liking or sharing something that, you know, that it scares them or that they considered to be anti or, you know, we both experience that.

Todd Gale [00:13:24] We both have shared things that we support Sam Young in his efforts. And believe you me, we both have got some feedback from people who don't understand what the hub.

John Dehlin [00:13:38] Hub is.

Todd Gale [00:13:38] You know, they just don't understand. And so we're doing this today. We've shared in the past. I talked to my bishop, I talked to my stake president. So we're all vocal in our own way and in our own time.

Sarah Gale [00:13:57] How that looks for everyone is different. How we choose to speak up or not speak up or how we choose to deal with it, you know, everyone's journey is different. And I'm not gonna, you know, you know, think less of someone or, you know, whatever, because they. Because they. They chose not to. You know, I don't think the members of our ward, if there are any who. Who have the same feelings as we do. I don't. You know, everyone has their reasons, and. And I'm fine with that.

John Dehlin [00:14:36] Yeah. But I think it's incredibly brave, and I said this at the beginning, that you guys are now willing to speak out, especially given that you still attend and you're still living in the same small, devout Mormon community that you live in in Chandler, Arizona. I served part of my mission. I was actually in the Chandler First Ward. I don't know if you guys know that. Four months of my mission in the Chandler First Ward. Duane Sherwood was the bishop at the time. And, you know, it's as much. It's kind of like, comparable to Salt Lake City in terms of how Mormon. It's a very Mormon community.

Todd Gale [00:15:12] Yeah, for sure.

Sarah Gale [00:15:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:14] So you are taking great. It is a great act of courage what you guys are doing today.

Sarah Gale [00:15:20] Thank you.

Todd Gale [00:15:20] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:15:23] Okay, so anything else, like, did your bishop or stake president ever try to silence you? Did ever make you feel uncomfortable? Did they ever say or do anything that sort of turned the accusations back on you during all this time? They certainly knew you were concerned, right?

Todd Gale [00:15:43] No, they didn't. I mean, would you agree?

Sarah Gale [00:15:47] Yeah, not really. I mean, if anything, not, not. Not so much from the Joseph Bishop thing and the. And our concerns about that, but just Todd had previously turned down a calling. At the time, it was before I knew about any of his things that he was struggling with. And at that time, when he turned down the calling, he shared some of the things that he was struggling with with the bishop. So if anything, I think maybe we've seen a little bit of ministering from the ward because maybe there's been talk about that and not necessarily our concerns about what's been going on since the recording was released. So we have noticed a little bit of an uptick in, you know, phone calls and, you know, visits and things like that. I think they're concerned about our family, you know, that kind of a thing.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] Well, that's very nice. Right. Is that felt nice to you or. Let's give credit where credit is due. If they're. If it feels like welcome support and outreach, let's just say kudos to the church. Is that what it's felt like or not?

Todd Gale [00:17:26] I will say there are certain members in the ward that are Genuine with me and with both of us and our family. And I appreciate that. The genuine friendship in our ward of certain individuals that I appreciated. And even if our stance being vocal today, I'm sure our friendship will be intact and I think there'll be a mutual respect still there. So there are kudos to some of the members of our ward, for sure, since we've been there.

Conversations with Ward Members About Their Concerns

John Dehlin [00:17:55] So some of our listeners are asking, have you ever had direct conversations with other ward members about, you know, this issue, about your concerns and how has that been? And are there any other ward members you're aware of who share your concerns?

Todd Gale [00:18:13] I just know of one, and we've. Him and I have talked privately, and he has the same concerns. And circling back a little bit, I remember that my stake president did say he's met with multiple people with the same concerns that I had when I met with him. So my guess is there's multiple people in an award that steal the way that we steal, but chose to stay silent. And that's. And that's their journey, like we've been talking about. So.

John Dehlin [00:18:42] Okay. All right.

Todd Gale [00:18:46] So

John Dehlin [00:18:50] really quickly, a lot of people want to know whether you were there when McKenna Denson came and bore her testimony in your ward. But before you answer that, is there anything else you want to tell about your story between, you know, between where you left off and McKenna Denson coming to share?

Todd Gale [00:19:14] I don't think so.

Sarah Gale [00:19:16] Just that, you know, one thing that I told Todd that weekend when. When everything came out and we were on our anniversary trip, I. I told him that. That I wanted to be wherever he was. So pretty quickly in that short weekend with the things that he was telling me, I was able to kind of sense and get a feeling of where he was.

Sarah Gale [00:19:56] And I knew after that weekend that he was, you know, it wasn't just he was having questions. I knew at that weekend that he. That his feelings about the church would never be the same. And I remember telling him that weekend that I want to be wherever you are.

Sarah Gale [00:20:27] So it might take me a little bit longer, you know, than just now, but it might take me some time. But I want to be where you are. I'm gonna be, you know, where you are. We're gonna do this together. And wherever we end up at the end of this, you know, is, you know, we're gonna do it together. And so for me, for the last eight months, 10 months, I've been personally going through this, you know, process, and, You know, I've come to the same conclusions that he has and Although that might hurt some people, although that might hurt family, that might hurt friends. To hear me say that, I.

Todd Gale [00:21:37] We have to be honest with ourselves.

Sarah Gale [00:21:39] Yes. And I think that's why we are now here sharing our story, because we are at the point where we need to, you know, move, move on. And this is kind of like that step for us. So. So I, you know, proceeded to, over that time period, you know, process everything. And now I feel like I'm at the place where Todd was when we started this whole thing. So thanks to Joseph Bishop, and that's

John Dehlin [00:22:23] a remarkably positive sort of bit of lemonade to this lemon is that you, Sarah, were able to get on the same page as Todd. And if you. At Mormon Stories and at the mormonfaithcrisis.com, we're not about encouraging people to stay or leave Mormonism. We don't care where people end up relative to the church. We care that people end up healthy and happy and that marriages, healthy marriages stay intact. And so we're, from that standpoint, we're very grateful that you guys are on the same page.

Sarah Gale [00:22:58] Yeah. I knew that. To be happy. It was wherever he was. So.

John Dehlin [00:23:06] Yeah. And that's beautiful. Beautiful words. We love that. Okay, so tell us about McKenna showing up in your ward. Were you. Were you there when it happened?

McKenna Denson Visits Their Ward

Todd Gale [00:23:18] Well, this is uneventful because that weekend we were going to go out of town for a baby busing. Well, and I was. We were all going to go because it was Labor Day weekend, but we live on county island, so we get irrigation, and our irrigation, ironically, came that Sunday morning. So I stayed back and she and the kids went out of town to a baby blessing. And so we both missed it. We missed the visits.

Sarah Gale [00:23:58] Yeah. But we, you know, we. I think he saw on social media that that happened, and he was like,

Todd Gale [00:24:09] well, the story is someone shared. Maybe it was McKenna who shared from Mike Norton. He did a little snippet preview, and he was doing a selfie outside the church building, kind of walking down the sidewalk. And I said, that is my church. That's my meeting. That's my church building. And so. And then another snippet came in that night, giving more nuggets of what was coming. And then I just knew. And so Sarah was driving back that night with the kids, and I called her, and I, you know, I. And I just said, I think McKenna Denson came to our church today. And I was, like, so mad that I missed it for one.

John Dehlin [00:24:50] And then,

Todd Gale [00:24:53] then I called one of my buddies in the ward to Confirm. And he confirmed, yes, that that happened. So we weren't there.

Sarah Gale [00:25:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:03] What did you hear about what did you hear about what happened or what that was like?

Sarah Gale [00:25:08] Well, the details were just, you know, a lot of what you just see on, you know, that was released on

John Dehlin [00:25:15] those who haven't heard it. What, what happened.

Todd Gale [00:25:19] It was fast and Testimony meeting and McKenna Denson, I believe, was the first person going up, I think, and went to the pulpit and broadcast to our ward that in our midst was a sexual predator. And she gave her background of who she was and where it happened. And then. A member of the bishopric and a member of the Stake presidency stood up and helped her off the pulpit in essence.

Sarah Gale [00:25:59] And then after that, from what we heard was that it was just kind of, well, what they did was they dismissed sacrament meeting, sent everybody to their classes and then that was it. It was kind of just like a normal Sunday and everybody just kind of, you know, was left, you know, feeling like what was that, that just happened.

Sarah Gale [00:26:29] But they just proceeded to continue with the rest of the day. You know, in the meantime, while that was happening, she was meeting with the bishopric member, I think, or just the member of the state presidency. And then after they allowed her to talk, which he was really, he listened to her, he allowed her to tell her story. And, and, and I thought that that was good, you know, and they could have, you know, just kicked her off the property and you know, but they didn't. And, and you know, when that was all done then, you know, from what we've heard, it was just kind of, you know, the rest of the day was just.

Todd Gale [00:27:28] Yeah, I mean this one, we, we weren't eyewitnesses, so we're just going off other people's experiences and just the video that we've all seen online. So. But the following Sunday.

Sarah Gale [00:27:44] Well, yeah, so, so one thing that, that I was looking for was something, you know, like a mention, you know, it was five days later. So it was almost towards the end of the week. There was a letter, email sent to the ward members from the bishop. And basically in the email it just, you know, talked about that he had been in council that week with the stake president, the stake presidency, the, the church security, I don't know what it's called. And then also the higher up leaders of the church, I can't remember how he worded it. He didn't say, you know, anyone from the quorum of the 12, but there were counseling with higher up leaders of the church and basically, you know, that he apologized for, for what happened?

Todd Gale [00:28:57] Our bishop wasn't there.

Sarah Gale [00:28:58] Yeah, he was. It was Labor Day weekend, so a lot of people were out of town. But. And. And he called for a war Temple night, which was the following. Just like the next day after he sent that email, Friday night.

Sarah Gale [00:29:20] And then word fast on that Sunday, which was just a couple of days later, so he sent that letter. And then at church on Sunday, he. He got up and spoke at the pulpit and some things that stuck out to me, and I remember this phrase very clearly. He said in. In his.

Sarah Gale [00:29:51] What he was saying was we would never attempt to cover anything up. And that just really struck me because here it is now September, you know, the first weekend of September. And the Joseph Bishop recording was released in March.

Sarah Gale [00:30:12] And obviously now we all know that they knew about this for quite some time before the recording was released at a warden stake level. They knew about this months before the recording was released. And now at this point, he's saying we would never do anything like that. We would never attempt to cover anything up.

John Dehlin [00:30:46] Now, is this your bishop or state president? Bishop, yeah.

Sarah Gale [00:30:50] And I mean, he said other things, too, but basically it was that. It was, you know, talking about how, you know, the plan moving forward is they're gonna keep us ward members safe and this type of thing will never happen again.

Todd Gale [00:31:10] And,

Sarah Gale [00:31:12] you know, that kind of a thing. And some of. We have some law enforcement that are members of our ward. And so I don't know if they still are, but since then, these are men that never wore suit jackets, but now they're wearing suit jackets because they're carrying, you know, protection, you know, and

John Dehlin [00:31:42] saying there are people bringing guns to church.

Sarah Gale [00:31:45] Yes.

Todd Gale [00:31:46] Well, yeah, Just to clarify, these are law enforcement.

Sarah Gale [00:31:49] They're in.

Todd Gale [00:31:49] Law enforcement professionals.

Sarah Gale [00:31:50] Yes.

Todd Gale [00:31:51] It's not the Wild west or anything, but they're, you know, professionals that. That's their career. So.

Sarah Gale [00:31:57] And for a few weeks after that happened, they had a Chandler Police Department car patrolling. One for a few weeks was parked

Todd Gale [00:32:09] in our parking lot the Sunday after when we walked into the foyer. We all know what a foyer is. There was a Chandler police officer in the foyer as we're going to church that following Sunday. So here's my feelings about this. When I saw that and that day, it angered me. It angered me because in my mind, it should never have got to this point. You know, McKenna should have never needed to go to our church and do what she did. I fully support her point of view and all that, but the church, in my view, should have acted much sooner. You know, from. From Our war standpoint, you know, it just angered me that we had to do all these things because, you know, better action should have been taken because

Sarah Gale [00:33:02] it wasn't handled when it should have been, you know, and because she felt like she wasn't listened to and that she didn't have a voice for so long and that, you know, it just should have never gotten to that point. And ward members were, you know, I mean, I don't know what the ward members thought. You know, we've spoken to some, but I don't know their feelings about that. And, you know, it just. It just should have never. It should have never gotten to that point.

John Dehlin [00:33:42] Yeah. And my thought is that the church, when there's a PR risk or a legal risk or a risk to. To the faith and commitment of the members, they'll mobilize very quickly because they want to preserve membership, support, allegiance, faith to the church. But the double whammy of sadness and outrage in this instance is, number one, they don't move at all to protect the children and the youth and the adults from sexual predators or abusers. And to this day, they haven't done anything to let the ward members know that there's a sexual predator in their midst, that, you know, to take accountability and to educate and warn the members to keep them safe. So that's outrageous. And then the double side, the double outrage is that they would then have the gall to claim that they would never cover anything up. It just seems outrageous.

Sarah Gale [00:34:49] Well, and it seems like that their actions after that happened, after McKenna came to the ward, their actions were only to protect the ward members from people like McKenna. Their actions were only to protect the ward members from. From McKenna's. You know, it shouldn't be that way. It should be, you know, you know, where is the protection from people like Joseph Bishop? Where is the protection for, you know, the thousands of sexual predators, whether in leadership positions or, you know, just members of a ward? Where is the protection from them? And. And I've seen how they, you know, how they handle these things. They acted to protect our ward from men, McKenna, and not from Joseph Bishop. And that's really the only action we've seen.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] Yeah. And, you know, this is not isolated people. Just on this podcast with just a few hundred viewers that somebody wrote in and said, you know, my husband was sexually abused by his Mormon bishop. That Mormon bishop, ex Mormon bishop, now is still serving in his calling in the temple and was never punished for sexually abusing my husband. And the thousands and thousands and thousands of stories that protect LDs, children and other, you know, movements or initiatives just show that the Church seems to bend over backwards to just mind blowingly protect abusers and not report them, not turn them in, not encourage bishops or stake presidents to report, not give them church discipline, not give them punishment, but instead silence or punish the victims or blame the victims, or do whatever they can to silence or squelch any discussion to protect the Church's name and reputation and money and resources.

John Dehlin [00:37:22] Again, all at the expense of victims and at the expense of the protection of other potential victims. It's just, it's mind blowing. Right. Except if you watch the movie, The movie last year, what's it called, Spotlight, Spotlight, where you can see that institutions systemically, patriarchal institutions systemically protect abusers at the expense of the abused. It's what organizations do, especially patriarchal, patriarchal religions do. That's just what they do. And it's outrageous.

Sarah Gale [00:38:08] Yes. Agreed.

Todd Gale [00:38:10] Concur wholeheartedly.

John Dehlin [00:38:12] Yeah. All right, so what else do you guys want to share about your story? Anything else to the story? I know we want to talk about this other sexual abuse scandal that's happened in your area that happened before that apparently your stake president was a part of. What else do you guys want to do to share, to conclude this story?

Sarah Gale [00:38:41] I was just gonna say as far as Joseph Bishop, you know, it kind of, you know, since September has just been, you know, same old, same old, just, you know, everybody pretending like nothing happened. And you know, he still gets the same handshakes and hugs and at the beginning, before sacrament meeting starts as he did before, and he still gets the same handshakes and hugs at the end of sacrament meeting as he did before. And it's just hard.

Sarah Gale [00:39:21] And one important component of this is our children. So we've been really honest with our kids about what we've been going through and we feel like they're old enough to, you know, understand. But we've also been very supportive of them and talking to them about that, you know, everyone has a journey and, you know, and they can make the decision for themselves and we are going to support them in whatever decision that they make. And, and we've been honest with them about the things of the church that we feel like have been kept from the members. And so here we are trying to teach our kids and they're passing the sacrament to Joseph Bishop every Sunday.

Sarah Gale [00:40:24] And it's just difficult because I think they're starting to see, you know, these huge contradictions and huge problems, you know, and they ask now. And we appreciate that, that they're asking us, but they ask mom why, you know, if he is, if he's a sexual predator, you know, why, why is he, why is he going to church in our ward and why am I passing the sacrament to him? And it's, it's hard because we don't have, you know, the right, the answers that, you know, we don't have the answers for them, you know, and so that's been difficult, you know, trying to teach our kids.

Sarah Gale [00:41:14] And, you know, we're, we're, we're giving them everything that we can. We're teaching them what we can teach and then they, you know, are going to make the decisions for themselves. And as long as our kids are comfortable going to church, we will go with them. Now, we don't know what's going to happen after this, but we're prepared for whatever will happen and our kids are too. Before we did this, we asked our kids what they thought and we said, you know, if you don't want us to do this, we won't.

Sarah Gale [00:41:56] And all four of them wanted us to do this. And, you know, before we left the house this morning, they, all four of them wished us luck. And so I just wanted to mention that

John Dehlin [00:42:16] that's really powerful and healthy, that, number one, this has provided your family with an opportunity to talk about these issues and also that you're setting an example of courage for your children. That's gotta be a good thing to model.

Sarah Gale [00:42:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:36] And so congratulations.

Sarah Gale [00:42:38] Thank you.

A Second Scandal Involving Stake Leadership

John Dehlin [00:42:41] All right, so do you want to talk about really quickly this other scandal that your stake president was involved in as bishop years ago?

Sarah Gale [00:42:50] I will, I'll try to keep it short. It's a very long. I mean, if you Google the story, it's, you know, you read the story from beginning to end. It's a bad one. It's.

John Dehlin [00:43:05] So it's Susan and Rachel Brock, B R O C K in Chandler, Arizona. I confirmed this to make sure. Go ahead and tell us the high level version.

Sarah Gale [00:43:16] So the shortened version is this. There was a member in our stake. Well, it's a long story, but a neighboring stake who was two families that were friends and they spent a lot of time together, they would vacation together, you know, that kind of a thing.

Sarah Gale [00:43:40] The daughter, who was 18 at the time, sexually abused the boy in the family, the other family, when he was 13. So it started with the daughter and then about a year later, I think when he was 14, the mom started sexually abusing him and she.

Sarah Gale [00:44:07] It was for three years or four years that the abuse was happening. She would buy him things, she would pick him up from school. And in the beginning, the family of the boy trusted her because these families were friends.

Sarah Gale [00:44:27] Things started getting to the point where they were concerned. They felt like things were not, you know, it wasn't appropriate, that she was buying him gifts and that she was taking him out of school and, you know, those kinds of things. And so they were concerned. They had a suspicion that something was going on. And so they went to see their state president.

Sarah Gale [00:44:51] Both families met with the stake president. And at the time, she didn't admit to anything. And, you know, it was one of those, at least in the news stories that you read, it was one of those that even though she didn't admit to it, everybody still, you know, they left that meeting feeling more suspicious, feeling more like there was something inappropriate going on. But at that time, nothing was done.

Todd Gale [00:45:31] And

Sarah Gale [00:45:34] that, I think, happened in that meeting, happened in early 2010. And so abuse was allowed to continue for a year longer. And during that time, the parents of the boy continued to be concerned. They went as far as to go to the school, the high school, and talk to the principal and say, this woman is not allowed to be around my son.

Sarah Gale [00:46:14] If you see her, you need to call the police, you know, blah, blah, blah. But all the while counseling with their bishops and counseling with their bishop, and he, you know, would counsel with them. And this took place over a year since they met with their stake president the first time.

Sarah Gale [00:46:38] Never in that year time when the family was sharing their concerns, their proof that there was abuse going on, never did the bishop counsel them to call the police. Never did he report. And it got to a point where the family was feeling hopeless.

Sarah Gale [00:47:05] And finally after, you know, another year, the father, I think, was the one that finally reported it to police. So later on when, you know, the news broke and everything was going on and all the investigation and everything, it was found by the county prosecutor.

Sarah Gale [00:47:32] He brought charges against the bishops of both wards of the families involved, the ward of the abused and the ward of the, of the victim, or, sorry, ward of the, of the abuser and ward of the victim. And the county prosecutor found evidence that failure to report, clergy, failure to report. And they were going to prosecute them, but something happened and it never, they were never prosecuted.

Sarah Gale [00:48:10] So, you know, it's a long, long story in depth. Just really, if you read the story, it's just awful, awful, awful. Heart wrenching. This boy's life was ruined. You know, they, I mean, just awful. And the reason why this is important to mention is because.

Sarah Gale [00:48:37] One of the bishops, the bishop of the victim, is the same as our stake president. So the bishop that was counseling this family during this hard time is also the stake president that has been at the forefront of this Joseph Bishop situation.

Sarah Gale [00:49:05] And now, you know, this happened eight years ago. You know, the news came out eight years ago. the time, I remember us being shocked, you know, that we, you know, that this was happening in our stake, and we had a personal relationship with the first stake president that they met with both families.

Sarah Gale [00:49:34] And I remember at the time, Todd and I being just shocked. But at the same time, like, there's no. Just thinking, there's no way that. There's no way that, you know, that

Todd Gale [00:49:49] the church did not act appropriately.

Sarah Gale [00:49:51] Yeah. Just thinking at the time, there's no way that they. That they didn't do what they were supposed to do in that situation. Just thinking it was unfathomable that they could have had some hand in abuse going longer than it should have or that kind of a thing. It just didn't.

Sarah Gale [00:50:17] It was something that we couldn't, you know, we just think, oh, of course they did what they were supposed to do. Of course they handled it the way that it was supposed to be handled. Of course, you know, of course, of course. And, you know, there was a. There's a lot more to the story.

Sarah Gale [00:50:33] He, the husband of the. The abuser, Susan Brock, was the county supervisor at the time. You know, there was a lot of accusations of covering up going on, you know, all of that. And it just. It's one of those that, like, it's even, you know, worse than something that you would see on tv, on a TV show.

Todd Gale [00:51:01] You know, the church at the time, they denied that the church failed to act appropriately and timely. So they denied the charges. And to Sarah's point before that, the county ended up not prosecuting the leaders of the church. But I would definitely say in hindsight, that was something that was put on my shelf, at least that I just can't comprehend the allegation, at least that it occurred.

Sarah Gale [00:51:31] And so, you know, we had forgotten about this. We had forgotten about this because it was a long time ago. And after the Joseph Bishop situation started in March, I just kept. For some reason that kept popping into my head and I, you know, I wanted, you know, it just kept coming into my mind, and I didn't know why. And I kept kind of pushing it out and, you know, going through my transition, faith transition. But finally I got to a point where I was like, you know what I'm going to research that. I really want to look at that story again and see what happened there. And when I did, I was just shocked at the fact that these bishops were accused of failure to report. And then I was shocked to read my stake president's name, you know, in the news articles as one of the ones that didn't report.

Todd Gale [00:52:48] That was accused of that.

Sarah Gale [00:52:49] Yeah, yeah, that was accused of that and just shocked. So it's the same, you know, so not only, you know, here we are again. Right. Not only that, but he was a bishop at the time and he's been moved up the ranks.

John Dehlin [00:53:12] You know, almost as if to say that if you handle things the way the Church wants, which is to prioritize the strength and the reputation and the resources of the Church by protecting the abusers and the Church's reputation at the expense of victims, you get rewarded with higher levels of responsibility and leadership as a thank you for handling it appropriately. Which in this case means not reporting the ward or stake members that are abusers and trying to quiet this and squelch these instances of abuse so that members don't know about what happened and aren't protected from future abuse. I know we're filling in a lot of gaps here and connecting dots, but that's because the Church doesn't talk openly about these things and connect the dots for us.

Sarah Gale [00:54:12] Yeah. So, I mean, these are things that you can read in news articles from that time. Said a quick search, you know, on

John Dehlin [00:54:22] social media, or we shared links. We shared links in the comments of this Facebook livestream. People can click on those links and read about these stories.

Sarah Gale [00:54:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:33] And I've asked you to include them in the show notes as well, where,

Sarah Gale [00:54:37] you know, when they were bishops at the time they were interviewed, you know, and they, you know, they gave, you know, statements and, you know, their statements that they gave were, no, they didn't call police, and no, they didn't advise the family to. And they also did say that they did make phone calls to the Church law office, Curtin McConkie. So they did make phone calls to Curtin McConkey, but they didn't make phone calls to the police, who they should have. You know, so that's troubling.

John Dehlin [00:55:19] And that fits everything we know about the process that bishops historically have been given a 1-800-number to call, which is not a 1,800number to provide aid and comfort and resources to the victims, to protect them, to get them therapy, to get them legal recourse, to get them legal protection. The 1, 800 number that bishops and stake presidents have historically been provided is a number to Curtin McConkie Law Firm, where Curtin McConkie tells the bishop manages the bishops and stake presidents in a way that protects the church and minimizes vulnerability and risk to the church. Again, at the expense of the victims.

Sarah Gale [00:56:01] Yes, I thought it was important to mention this, too, just because this was written right in the news article and it was a statement that the Church made at that time. And this was after the county prosecutor was going to prosecute these bishops and after they had given, you know, their statements and interviews. And the church statement said any allegations that church leaders knew of abuse but did nothing is inaccurate and offensive. The Church is extremely proactive in its efforts to protect children from abuse of any kind and works diligently to support and assist victims of abuse. When abuse does occur, we work to see that it is reported to the authorities. And I just think, you know, they already had said that they didn't report it, but yet that's the statement that the Church put out at that time.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] So, again, it's just a pattern they keep following, which they followed with McKenna Denson and Joseph Bishop, which is they obstruct and hide and, you know, protect the abusers. And in their public statements, only when forced to make a statement reactively after the scandal erupts, they. They claim the victim status. How dare you insinuate that we protect the church and abusers at the expense of victims? We do everything we can to protect victims, and we would never do anything to hide or cover up when they are obviously systemically hiding and covering up abuse.

Todd Gale [00:57:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:50] And it's not like any of us get any joy or satisfaction in talking about these things. I. I am committed in 2019 and beyond to being as healthy and constructive and optimistic and positive and neutral as possible on Mormon Stories podcast. But this has all the evidence of being a very clear cut, broken system of harm. And so I don't think it gives any of us joy to be calling this out.

Sarah Gale [00:58:20] You know, definitely not. Um, but for me, you know, this is my whole, you know, beginning of my whole faith crisis. I believe in my heart of hearts that this is wrong. It's wrong. And I. I am at the point in my life and. And I'm at the point in my faith journey that I can't be quiet anymore about this. I can't. And, you know, like I said before, I'm sorry if this hurts some people, but I cannot. This is wrong. It's not honest. And, you know, it's right there. You know, that statement that I just read, it's deceiving and it goes against everything that I have been taught in my life. And it's really hurtful to find out that your church, that your religion is, is the one doing it. You know, it's hard.

John Dehlin [00:59:46] It's devastating. Yeah. Yep. Well, this is. This is not a fun way to begin 2019, but it's a courageous story of a couple that is willing to face reality at a high cost. And what's inspiring about this story is your mutual willingness to speak up about this in the face of potential harm or discomfort that you might face. And the inspiring story of the unification of your marriage and the strengthening of your marriage as a result of going through this very difficult situation.

Todd Gale [01:00:34] I think I want to say that we're optimistic for 2019. We're ready to move forward. You know, I love the adage of the primary song. Choose do what is right and let the consequence follow. You know, and we think we're doing what's right and speaking up and speaking out, and we're trying to be as honest and as authentic as we possibly can while doing it.

John Dehlin [01:00:59] And we have to give a shout out to McKenna, who is the reason we're having this conversation and is the source of will go down in history, along with Sam Young and the Protect LDS Children movement and all the people that have supported these efforts and all the people for decades that have been fighting for this. We stand on the shoulders of giants, including Lavina Fielding Anderson, one of the September six who has excommunicated for chronicling a list of ecclesiastical abuse and cover ups of abuse. She did that back in the late 80s, early 90s. She's a real pioneer. There are so many people whose shoulders we stand on that have made all this possible. But a huge shout out to McKenna Denson, Sam Young, protect LDS children, everyone here who supported them, and of course, to you, Todd and Sarah Gail, for being able to add color to the story.

Sarah Gale [01:02:02] Thank you. Well, we hope what we shared today has been. Helpful, worth listening to. I guess you always kind of, you know, are nervous about what you have to say, if that's going to be any value of value or helpful to someone else. I know that many of your podcasts, and for me, the ones that I really, really resonated with me and ones that really spoke to me were from couples, husband and wives. And so, you know, that was our hope that we could, you know, they really. Those really helped me, you know, in my journey. And hopefully we can help someone else. And. That's all.

John Dehlin [01:03:01] Absolutely. Leslie reminds us that there are many, many voices and survivors that have contributed to this movement, including the almost thousand people that shared their stories with Sam and Protect LDS Children and other important sources. I'm pretty sure Sam Young is climbing a mountain today as a part of his 2019 Protect LDS Children movement to encourage people to climb mountains and post flags and summit in support of the Protect LDS Children movement, which then will culminate at some point this year in another march on Salt Lake City. And I know Sam's working on a book and there are a lot of other things going on and we know that all these things have culminated in church already handling these sorts of situations differently and hopefully better. And we hope that this progress continues.

Sarah Gale [01:03:57] We do, too.

Reflections, Gratitude, and Moving Forward

Todd Gale [01:03:59] Well, John, we just want to thank you real quick and for the opportunity for us to share our story. And I want to echo what Sarah said, that your podcasts have been instrumental in my journey. And you know, there's a couple that are, you know, that where were you when the Challenger exploded type situation? And I can, there's a few that I remember so distinctly, where I was and what I was thinking. So thank you. You've done a lot of good for the world and we appreciate all your efforts.

John Dehlin [01:04:36] Well, thank you so much. It's one of the great honors and privileges of my life to help support people in faith transition and to help shine a spotlight on the LDS Church to make it more accountable, to make it more transparent and to help it improve, cause less harm and to do more good in the world. So thank you and it's my pleasure and I have to give a huge shout out of support to donors, listeners and supporters and everyone who has contributed to Mormon Stories podcast and the Open Stories foundation over the years, because I couldn't have done what I've done without the support of our listeners. So thank you and thanks to our listeners and supporters. Anything you guys want to say in closing, Todd and Sarah, or do you feel like you've said it all?

Sarah Gale [01:05:28] I think we've said it all. I think right now as for me and you know, my concerns are always my kids and you know, what our family will do moving forward. And you know, there's definitely no going back now.

Sarah Gale [01:05:48] So I just am curious, you know, you know, we've made attempts to find people who have gone through the same things that we've gone through that are in our area just so that we can have a more local support system and with no luck.

Sarah Gale [01:06:11] So if there's anyone out there that lives in the Chandler Gilbert area, you know, we'd love to meet you. And you know, you know, I think about my kids and you know, that's always a challenge when going through something like this and wanting, you know, them to have, you know, a support system too with whatever they, you know, choose for themselves. And so if there's anyone that, you know, we'd love to meet you that lives in our area. I don't know how to quite do that. Email us. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:06:57] Yeah, well, we'll include, you know, in on this. For those listening or viewing. If you go to Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page and find the live stream video recording of this episode, you know we've tagged you guys there so they can just reach out to Todd. Let's see, your Facebook names are Todd Gale, G A L E and Sarah Stuckey. Is it Stuckey or Stookey?

Sarah Gale [01:07:27] Stookey.

John Dehlin [01:07:28] Sarah Stookeygale. They can reach out to you through Facebook. I know that there are some great communities for progressive or post Mormons in the Phoenix, Gilbert Chandler, Mesa areas. Go to mormonspectrum.org map and you can find links in Arizona to these communities. There are a ton of support communities for progressive and post Mormons. You need not be alone in Phoenix, Gilbert Chandler, Queen Creek, Mesa, Tempe, etc. So if you guys need it, I will plug you into those communities because there's a lot of great communities out there and tons of great progressive and post Mormons out there. We've held some workshops and retreats in the past in the area.

John Dehlin [01:08:14] Shout out to Kerry Thompson Jones, who's listening, who I met at my very first Mormon Stories event conference in Mesa way back in the day. She says she would love you to reach out. So guys, afterwards I'll get you in touch with Kerri Thompson Jones. She's amazing.

John Dehlin [01:08:40] Kim Levin is saying hi, he's in Phoenix. Ashley Kapooni is saying she's in the Phoenix area. I think you guys can expect several people from the area to be reaching out to you shortly. We'll make sure. Community of support.

Todd Gale [01:08:57] We're excited.

John Dehlin [01:08:59] Yeah. So check out the comments there and you'll get plugged in very quickly to a great community of support. And again, thanks to Jeremy and Molly Young, the Mormon wine snobs who made this interview possible. And they're also plugged into the communities.

Sarah Gale [01:09:16] Who knew? He just lived right down the street. We never knew.

John Dehlin [01:09:20] Yeah, you're not alone. And for those interested, one of the reasons I hold workshops and retreats is because it's a way to bring progressive and post Mormons together face to face who don't know each other. And usually whenever I come to an area and hold a workshop or retreat, it revitalizes and stimulates more community relationships. So for those who are interested, whether it's in Phoenix area or other areas, if you want to hold one of these workshops or retreats, you can email us@mormonfaithchrismail.com we'll plan a workshop in your area and we'll stimulate and revitalize support communities. That's part of what we do.

John Dehlin [01:10:08] All right, well, thanks. Thanks again Todd and Sarah for joining us. It's a real honor and pleasure. Thanks to McKenna for joining us. Thanks to Sam Young for doing what he's doing. Thanks to everyone who's joined us today and made comments.

John Dehlin [01:10:22] Your comments on the live stream made this a better interview by far. I want to thank everyone who supports the Open Stories Foundation Mormon Stories Podcast. Your donations keep us alive. Please go to MormonStories.org and click on the donate button at the top or in the top right. Your monthly donations of 10, 50, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford, are what keep this podcast alive. They're tax deductible in the US when you donate to Mormon Stories Podcast and it makes a huge difference. So please become a monthly donor if you can.

John Dehlin [01:10:58] We're transparent in our finances and all the money you give goes to keeping this podcast alive and making it possible to support others. So please support us if you can. Thanks to everyone who does. Thanks to Cody Layton who produces all the stuff. Thanks to the Open Stories foundation board that keeps our nonprofit going. And just thanks to everyone we'll have more cool episodes in 2019. You won't believe the cool episodes that we have in store for you, so just expect more and more Mormon Stories goodness in the weeks, months and years ahead. We've got great stuff coming, so please stay tuned for more Mormon Stories Podcast episodes.

John Dehlin [01:11:37] Please like us on Facebook. Please give us a positive review on Facebook. Please give us a positive review on itunes. Please share these episodes with others. Follow us on Instagram and on Twitter everywhere you can. Anything you can do to support us with social media.

John Dehlin [01:11:57] Support us again with donations. Keeps us alive. So thanks to our listeners. See you guys again soon. And again, Todd and Sarah Gail, thank you for your courage in telling your story. You're going to help a lot of people.

Sarah Gale [01:12:12] Thank you, John.

Todd Gale [01:12:13] We'll talk to you soon.

Sarah Gale [01:12:14] Happy New Year.

John Dehlin [01:12:15] Happy New Year. Happy New year to you guys and to our listeners. It's going to be a great.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.