Welcome and Episode Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is May 15, 2024. I am here with my wonderful partner, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:12] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:00:13] We could not be more excited for this epic episode today. As many of you know, a few months back, we did a first of what we hoped to be a series of panels. And we did a panel of bishops or ex bishops, Mormon Bishop bishops with our dear friend Bishop Bowe. And it's been one of the most popular, definitely Mormon Stories episodes of the past 12 months in some sense of, you know, in the history of Mormon stories. Super well received. And the most common comment we received in response to that amazing bishops or ex bishops panel was when are we going to have Relief Society, a Mormon Relief Society president or ex Relief Society president panel? And so that is what we have in store for you today. We have today with us Ricky and Elisa. Hey, guys. Hi, gals. And we have Marian and Shelley. Hey, y'. All.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:18] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] And that's what we're bringing you today. Now, before we jump in, a couple quick things. So we do want to let you know that we have other. We've chosen the topics for our next two panels and we want to just let you know ahead of time what they are. The first one we want to do, the next panel we want to do are current or very recent participants in the Young Single Adult, Young Single Adult program. And we're looking for women. So if you are a woman, a Mormon woman who is currently participating in the Young Single Adult Adult program within the Mormon Church or like within the past six to 12 months, you were participating in the, in the Mormon YSA program.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] We want to hear from you. We want to hear your adventures and your experiences of dating Mormon men as an adult in 2024. The second panel that we hope to do are recently returned Mormon missionaries. We have it on very good authority that the church is now telling people in kind, behind the scenes, more secret private meetings that 40% of Mormon missionaries who, who are returning from their missions as of late are leaving the Mormon church within six months. So just to repeat that again, 40% of Mormon missionaries are leaving the Mormon church within six months of returning home from their missions. And there's a very large early return rate now of Mormon missionaries.

John Dehlin [00:02:58] And we want to know what the heck is going on Mormon missions and why are our 18 to 21 year olds deserting Mormonism at such a high rate right after their missions? So go to MormonStories.org if you want to apply for either of these two panels and you'll be able to find, I think, under about a link that gives you information on how to apply? No, I think it's on the homepage. On the homepage, you'll be able to scroll down. There'll be a place where you can click a link to apply. You have to submit a video and you have to fill out a form.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] And Margi and I and Bo, Bishop Bo, who's been instrumental in this entire series, by the way, we will be vetting your applications and we'll be creating a panel on these two topics. And we hope to do like a panel a month or a panel every other month. We're going to try and do it more often and we've got some great panels coming. So anyway, just wanted to let you guys know about that. So a couple business items before we begin today's Mormon Release Society President panel.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] Ideally, I think I wouldn't even be in studio today, but Margi, of course, would be the person probably to run this panel. And of course, Margi, we talked about whether I should be here at all. Are you comfortable just sharing why? For today, at least. You wanted me to be a part of today's panel.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:25] Sure, sure. I'd be glad to. So for me, in talking about how we could best do this today, panels are actually like, it takes a lot of skill to lead a panel, and I have zero experience leading a panel. So for me, it's kind of a quality decision wanting this to be the highest quality possible because I care deeply about this subject matter. So in discussing it, we're kind of doing a hybrid. I will be leading a lot of the questions today, but we're doing a bit of a hybrid because I'm learning, I'm in training, so it's really out of care for those here and to kind of give the best to you all. So that's how I would explain it.

Shelley Densley [00:05:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:14] And so Margi will be doing, I think, a lot of the heavy lifting of the panel, but I'm just going to be here to support and jump in. And I'm also running the cameras and other things behind the scenes.

John Dehlin [00:05:26] Okay. And so just as a super quick intro for our never Mormons who have no idea what a Relief Study president is, we're going to be talking about that very, very shortly. But just so you know, you know, a Mormon bishop leads a Mormon congregation, and there's a position in a Mormon congregation or ward called a Relief Society president, which is basically a woman Chosen by the bishop to.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] To help lead the women, I'll say it that way. And we're going to talk more about that. So this is as close as the Mormon Church gets to something analogous to a Mormon bishop. And so that's what Relief Society president is. And today we have four women who have served at one point or another as Relief Society presidents within their Mormon congregations. And so what we're going to do to begin with is have each panelists introduce themselves, tell us their name, whatever, you know, briefly, they want to share about them, maybe share with us when you served and for how long.

John Dehlin [00:06:34] And if you want to share your current status with the church, you can. And if you can remember all this, if you have an intention for why you want to be here, that's a great thing to add in your opening statement. So, Ricky, why don't we begin with you?

Panelists Introduce Themselves

Ricky Hein [00:06:52] Thank you. My name is Ricky. Ricky Purdy is my maiden name. My last name now is Hein. I am from Georgia. I grew up in Georgia and went out to byu, you know, did the whole Mormon thing. My husband and I ended up in New Jersey, and that's where I was Relief Society president. I was Relief society president in 2014 for only six months. And I know that that is a very different number than the rest of the women here. I was Relief Society president when I was 25 years old. I was called in Camden, New Jersey, in an inner city type setting, and I served with women that I was not at all. Like, I was very different from them. I was much younger than them, and I was a white woman in a very diverse setting. Is that everything? What was your other question?

John Dehlin [00:08:13] Do you want to share? Like, did you do the mission thing before?

Ricky Hein [00:08:20] No, I did not go on a mission. I got married very young. I was 20 and started having babies two years later. So super young. I was 22 when I had my first baby. But it's funny you asked that because I considered my time in the branch. So my husband and I were called to be in this new branch in Camden, New Jersey, and I very much considered that to be my mission. It felt like a mission because it was so different from my normal life. And so during it and after it, and still it kind of felt like a mission, even though I was married with kids. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:04] And do you want to quickly share just an intention for why you wanted to be a part of this panel? Sure. It's stressful. Sometimes they come on Mormon stories for some people.

Ricky Hein [00:09:12] Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It has been, you know, I have waffled with the decision over coming here. And ultimately, I feel like it's important in my own story, in my own journey, because I have been helped so, so much by Mormon stories, particularly Leah Young. She was my life coach for a short time, and I cannot say good enough things about her, about my experience watching Mormon stories and healing over the past couple of years. And so if I can grant someone even a measure of that healing or good feeling that I have, then that is why I'm here. So, yeah, Beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:10:01] Thank you. Thanks, Ricky. All right, Elisa.

Alisa Jones [00:10:07] I am Alisa Jones, and I grew up in Utah, Spanish Fork. And I went to byu. I served a mission in Madrid, Spain, and I did graduate school at byu. I'm a school psychologist, and I served in West Jordan, Utah, from 2003 as a Relief Society president.

Alisa Jones [00:10:29] I served for four years in our ward, and then I was called to be the Stake Relief Society President. I only did that for about a year and a half before we moved. I was struggling with my faith. There were a lot of things happening. That was in 2008. So around the time of Prop 8, I was having a lot of issues.

Alisa Jones [00:10:52] I think my testimony has been. I've had. It's been a slow burn for me in terms of my faith journey and progression. I have had issues for a long time, since I was a teenager. I really value the experience I had as a Relief Society president, but I feel like one of my intentions is to possibly reach people who are in it right now or who have been in it, because there's a lot to process. There's a lot that happens when you serve, and I'm hoping that maybe some of our experiences will help someone who's either been through it or is currently in it to not feel alone and maybe to be able to process what they're experiencing. That's my intention.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:36] And I would just add, like to clarify, if you don't mind, for Elisa. Elisa, am I right in saying is the only one on the panel who actually currently attends, which I think is just. It's nice to bring out, right?

Alisa Jones [00:11:48] Yes. Oh, yes. That's important to mention. I still attend, and I'm the primary chorister, so I lead the music for the children in my congregation. I've been doing that for 12 years, and I love it in terms of my faith. My kind of personal philosophy is that I reserve the right to change my mind. So I'm in it for now, and this feels good for me right now, and it may look different in the future, and it's looked different in the past, and I own that, and I feel really good about. About that.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:20] Yes.

Alisa Jones [00:12:20] I also should mention, too, I feel like there is a bit of. I think I have some privilege in being able to be here, because to come on and speak as someone who is still participating in the church, there could be consequences. And I recognize that there are a lot of women and people who maybe don't feel like they could do this. There might be consequences with their family, their relationship, by possibly being critical about some aspects of the church. So I acknowledge that privilege, that I have a family who's very supportive of me, and I suspect my ward will be as well.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:54] Yeah. Yeah, Great.

John Dehlin [00:12:57] Thank you, Lisa. All right, Marian.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:01] Okay.

Marian Johnson [00:13:02] So my name's Marian Johnson. I was a Relief Society president for about three years. And this would have been 98, 99, 2000. And this was in Vernal, Utah. We actually moved out of that ward, so I wasn't released, but we moved.

Marian Johnson [00:13:19] My basic background, pretty much born and raised in the church, although my. My parents were divorced, so we were inactive the entire time. I was little and didn't start going back to church until, I think, when my dad remarried my lovely stepmom, I was 10. So no church at all as a kid, but big time, lots of church. As a teenager, I went to BYU. I married at 19, a very handsome return missionary.

Marian Johnson [00:13:50] We have been together 39 years, he and I. I started having kids right away. Had five beautiful little bambinos. Very quickly, I was at BYU at the time, and you might have to help me with this. The talk called to the women of the church, President Benson, was it? I believe in 87. Yes.

Marian Johnson [00:14:14] And he pretty much said, good women don't get education or build careers. They marry young and they have a lot of kids. And I took that to heart. My cohorts, you know, we did. We'd listen and we. And we. We did exactly that. So I didn't actually finish my degree until I was 46, but I'm a late bloomer in a lot of things.

Marian Johnson [00:14:38] I just, I think is part of my intention for wanting to be here today is. Is I'm discovering. Well, see, I'm. I'm one of those Mormons who I. I have been active right up through the pandemic. In fact, at the time of the pandemic, I was the gospel doctrine teacher in my ward, and we did zoom Gospel doctrine.

Marian Johnson [00:14:57] And as it turned out, because of the pandemic, my husband lost his employment, and so things went crazy. I stopped going to church and I Have not been back. It's been something I have elected not to participate in any longer. And my intention for being here, I think, is that I am seeing a lot of women of my generation. You know, we were kind of the baby making machines of the 70s, 80s and 90s.

Marian Johnson [00:15:26] And I'm finding a lot of us now, we're finding how the church really just did not serve us at all. And we might pull away from that. And then we're left wondering, wow, you know, what might I have done? And that's a place you don't want to get stuck.

Marian Johnson [00:15:45] That's a place you don't want to crawl in a hole and stay there. And I have discovered that I have a voice and that what I say and think matters. And so I want to share that belief with women in my cohort who maybe are not comfortable staying in the church anymore. And they feel bad and crazy and wrong, and I just want them to know that they're supported and they're not.

John Dehlin [00:16:10] Yeah, Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:11] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Maven's fact checking for us and she's saying that the talk that was referenced is to the mothers in Zion.

Marian Johnson [00:16:17] To the mothers in Zion.

Ricky Hein [00:16:18] There you go.

John Dehlin [00:16:20] Okay, thanks, Maven. Okay. Shelley.

Shelley Densley [00:16:26] Hi, my name is Shelley Densley. My maiden name is Ekbloom. I'm from San Diego. I was born and raised in San Diego. I'm a convert to the church. I come from an interesting family background. I have a mom who's actually really diagnosed with narcissism and borderline personality disorder. I was able to find her records in my parents file cabinet and read about it.

Shelley Densley [00:16:51] And my dad was a physician. And then my mom also became a drug addict. So anyways, that was a kind of chaotic childhood. I just have a twin. There's just her and I that were raised together. And I was really struggling as a 14 year old and getting into mischief and trouble. And my mom decided the best thing for me was to send me to live with my Mormon aunt in Arizona. So I went to go live with my aunt in a small copper mining town. It's pretty small.

Shelley Densley [00:17:22] And that's where I went to high school. That's where I started going to seminary. Only wanted to go because I didn't want to walk on campus by myself. And so I went to seminary and my seminary teacher gave me the missionary discussions and I joined the church. So I joined the church when I was 15 and I stayed at that high school until my senior year. And then I actually loved it. I asked my aunt if I could live with her forever when I'd only been there a week, because she was a mom in all the ways. I didn't have a mom, but I did leave when I was a senior in high school, and I went back to San Diego or La Mesa, and I got my twin sister to join the church, and we attended the Young Single Adult ward there, and we both went on missions.

Shelley Densley [00:18:06] I went to byu. That's where I met my husband. And then I went on a mission, and I came back. We got married, and I became the Relief Society president for the La Mesa First Ward in 2014. And I was that until 2018. And I started losing my testimony while I was the Relief Society president.

Shelley Densley [00:18:26] And my intentions for today is that for coming here is. For some reason, I was listening to the bishop's panel, and I was like. And he. You talked about having a Relief Society panel, and you said to fill out the application and make a video.

Shelley Densley [00:18:43] So I did. I just felt like I was supposed to do that. It's so out of my comfort zone. I'm kind of an introvert person, so that's not something I would ever do, put myself out there so people could criticize me. But I just felt like I really needed to do it and share my story, and I thought it would help other people. So my most important intention is to help other people.

John Dehlin [00:19:06] Julie's asking me to ask, did you say you served a mission?

Shelley Densley [00:19:09] Oh, I did.

John Dehlin [00:19:09] And where did you serve, Julie?

Shelley Densley [00:19:12] I served a deaf mission in Chicago, Illinois. And at that time, I don't know how it is now. You transferred to different missions, and so I served the last half of my mission in Anaheim.

John Dehlin [00:19:25] Got it. Beautiful. All right.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:29] Beautiful intentions. Thank you, each and every one. Maybe we'll start. Why don't we start with answering the question, just for those who may not know, what is the Relief Society?

History and Structure of Relief Society

Alisa Jones [00:19:44] Okay, so the Relief Society was founded in 1842 as a women's organization in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And the initial intention was to provide service and relief for those who were suffering. And two years after its founding, it was actually suspended because of the secession crisis after Joseph Smith died.

Alisa Jones [00:20:10] And so Brigham Young became the prophet, and there was some problems between Emma and Brigham Young. And so it was suspended for a period of time. And then over the course of the last. What is that, almost 200 years, it's had periods where it's gone away. There was a large period where it went away.

Alisa Jones [00:20:29] And I think most of us believe that that's largely due to patriarchy and Keeping women in their place. And it has grown to have also other responsibilities. So a lot of charity work. The motto of the Relief Society is Charity never Faileth. And Primary Children's Hospital was largely founded by the Relief Society. A lot of charitable work, but it has morphed into something where it is where the men are educated spiritually through priesthood and the women are educated spiritually through the Relief Society. So they have a presidency, they have teachers. We have a relief visiting teaching program where people minister to one another in the congregation. So it now it looks at your spiritual needs as well as meeting temporal and welfare needs of people.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:22] Right? Yep. Thank you for that. So with regard to kind of the responsibilities, as you think back to the things that you, you know, you were in charge of, how would you talk about your responsibilities and even maybe defining the structure of the Relief Society president? Right. And then your count, it's counselors. Right. And is there a secretary, too? So do you want to go into that for a minute? Maybe just the general structure of it and then maybe what each of you some of the responsibilities that you had.

Alisa Jones [00:22:01] Sure. So you have the bishopric, so a bishop and his counselors, and then there's a primary presidency that looks at the needs of the children, young women's, young men's for the adolescents, and Relief Society is for the sisters. So there's a Relief Society president. She calls counselors and a secretary, two counselors who help her. And we would do things like food orders for people who needed welfare assistance. There's a bishop storehouse where people can get food, people who have babies. We would minister there, offer meals, funerals, we would help prepare meals for the family after. And also just any kind of needs that come up, as well as on Sunday meetings, teaching. So we have a one hour block where the women would be taught by each other.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:54] Yes. Right.

John Dehlin [00:22:56] Real quick. Do you report to anyone as Relief Study president?

Alisa Jones [00:23:02] That's important. Yes. So although you're given some authority over the organization and making assignments, every decision is approved by the bishop. So, for example, when I was called to be the Relief Society president, I was asked to call my counselors and my secretary, and I submitted those names to the bishop. I, previous to being a Relief Society president, I was a primary president. So I'd had this experience before of calling counselors, and I was allowed to call those people, but I didn't call them myself. The bishop then would call them to. To be my counselor. And the same happened when I was the Stake Relief Society president that the stake president called me and Then I was able to select my counselors, but they were the ones that approved them and called them.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:49] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] So you don't just get to pick your counselors.

Alisa Jones [00:23:51] You get to pick them in conjunction, but they have to be approved.

John Dehlin [00:23:54] That's what I mean.

Ricky Hein [00:23:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:23:56] You don't just get to pick them. You get to nominate who you want

Alisa Jones [00:23:59] your counselors to be nominated is a great. A great way to describe it.

John Dehlin [00:24:02] And then the bishop can accept or reject your request.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:04] Yeah.

Alisa Jones [00:24:05] And even things like money, you're given a budget for things like activities or other things that you need, and that's distributed by the bishop. And I had complete liberty to spend it how we felt like we wanted to, but it was all approved.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:20] Okay. Just so that people can get a sense for how many people? Like, do you guys have a sense or do you remember about how many women you were looking after?

Ricky Hein [00:24:36] I guess I can answer first. My answer is probably much different than everyone else's. The branch was very small that I was in, and so I would say 20. Like, it was very, very small. 20 that would come about, probably double that, maybe in the records. But it was very, very small. So my answer's not the same. But, yeah, I'm sure it's much different for a big ward.

Marian Johnson [00:25:09] Yeah, I. I was a relief study president in Vernal, Utah. So obviously it's part of Utah. A lot of LDS people are war. I think the average ward is maybe 350, 400 people, something like that. So the adult women that I would have been working with was maybe 6, 60, 60 to 70 adult women.

Shelley Densley [00:25:31] Yeah, I would say my ward was kind of the same size. I mean, we're in charge of the women 18 and above, but a lot of those women have callings in primary, in nursery, and there are other places. But I would say probably on a consistent basis, maybe 50 women, maybe a little bit less, came every Sunday.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:49] Okay, great. So if we were going to talk about any training, maybe that you received prior to being called or even as you were called, and maybe we'll start with formal. Was there any type of formal training that you received in conjunction with being called any of you?

Training and Preparation for the Calling

Shelley Densley [00:26:14] Well, I can say what my training is. I don't know if it's really formal training, but I did meet with the past Relief Society president. We met in my car, and she sat in my car.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:27] So probably not the most formal

Marian Johnson [00:26:30] now

Shelley Densley [00:26:30] for about an hour. She gave me this big binder to look at, and it had, like, the handbook in it. The Relief Society handbook. We Looked over that. She gave me this big binder of all the visiting teaching. Now it's called ministering. And she did show me how to do a food order. We went in and did a food order with someone together. So that was nice. But we did it in the church. It was not in their home. And you're supposed to go to their home. But. So I did get a little formal. Not formal, but informal training.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:01] Okay. Anyone else with regard to preparation?

Marian Johnson [00:27:05] Preparation, Yes. I think I was given the materials by the outgoing Relief Society president, Emanuel, the roles to take, role, things like that. But my experience is that they are so tired and done with it that they just hand you the stuff and say, good luck. But no, there was no training, formal or informal.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:28] Right.

Marian Johnson [00:27:28] To work.

Ricky Hein [00:27:28] Okay, I agree. And I also wanted to say about twice a year we would have a Stake Relief Society training. Maybe it was once a year. Maybe it was twice a year. I can't remember right now where all of the women that were in any. They called auxiliaries, Primary presidency, young women's presidency, Relief Society presidency. We all gathered at the Stake center, which is just basically a church, big church building, and received some training. Not really any. Like, it was more spiritual training or spiritual classes. I don't know if any of you had that experience as well. I'm sure you did, but I was gonna say we received a lot of, like, spiritual training or spiritual feeding, but hardly any, like, of the logistic logistical stuff. I don't know if.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:32] When you say spiritual training, what do you mean by that?

Ricky Hein [00:28:35] I guess I mean, we were. We were given great lessons and talks that made us feel good and helped. Helped maybe kind of boost us or like a little pep rally for spiritual. Our spiritual lives.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:53] Okay.

Ricky Hein [00:28:56] But not really.

Alisa Jones [00:28:58] Yeah.

Ricky Hein [00:28:59] Next to no training, I would say, at least for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:03] Yeah.

Ricky Hein [00:29:03] You know, I know that all of our experiences are going to be different. So, yeah, I had. I. I had similar experiences as you two. Kind of just the old Relief Society present. Here you go. Good luck.

Alisa Jones [00:29:18] But, yeah, I had that as well. The former Relief Society president, she did spend quite a bit of time with me. She was very invested in her calling. So I got the binder, but she did walk me through. We spent a couple of sessions together, and she walked me through and told me about the needs of certain families.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:35] That's what I was wondering.

Alisa Jones [00:29:36] And it was very helpful and visiting teaching. She really did walk me through a lot of that. And we. Our stake president, our Stake Relief Society president at the time was also very involved and helpful. So she did a training whenever you were new, newly called for your presidency, where she walked you through the food order and the bishop storehouse. So I felt like I did get a lot from the former, but it's nothing written down. So when I became a Stake Relief Society President, I actually created a training list of things that would be helpful so that when I met with every new ward Relief Society president, I could go over that.

Alisa Jones [00:30:13] I will say this. The most helpful training I received was in my mental health training in graduate school and in my professional work to learn about boundaries and to learn about mental health. And even though it was stressful, it's a very stressful calling. I think that helped me a lot in terms of my ability to manage how it was for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:33] Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah.

The Weight and Mantle of the Calling

John Dehlin [00:30:36] So within Mormonism, it's common to talk about the mantle of the bishop, meaning that the bishop carries this really heavy weight of pressure and stress and responsibility. Can y' all talk about the mantle of the Relief Society president, maybe each of you?

Margi Dehlin [00:30:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] And just like, what pressures and responsibility and stress did each of you bring to the calling once you received it? And maybe Shelley will start with you and then go back this way.

Shelley Densley [00:31:06] Okay.

Marian Johnson [00:31:08] Wow.

Shelley Densley [00:31:08] When I started, I kind of tend to be a little excessive in how I do things, so I was just hyped up right away. And I remember, like, one of my first nights making calls, and then people answered and helped me out, but it was like 10 o' clock at night, and I didn't realize it was so late, and I should not be calling people that late. But when I was set apart, I. I kind of had this image in my mind of previous Relief Society presidents that they had this magical kind of inspiration and wisdom and connection with God. And so when I was first Relief Study President, I just did it all by myself for probably the first couple months.

Shelley Densley [00:31:53] And I realized I was failing. I wasn't doing a very good job. And then I remember the talk on counselor with your councils. And so then I just involved my whole presidency, and I trained them. Just no one really trained me, but I learned how to do everything, and I cross trained all of them so that when the next person became Relief Society president, she was my counselor. She didn't need to be trained at all. Like, I trained everybody and everything. We did everything together. I kind of treated it like my mission. We were just a team.

Shelley Densley [00:32:22] So I did feel a huge mantle of responsibility for the women. But also one of the reasons the bishop said I was called is he said, we're going to go a new direction. And we feel like you can just love the sisters. So I want you because you can just love people. And I was like, yeah, I can do that. You know, I can't plan a party, but I can love people.

Marian Johnson [00:32:47] Yeah. The mantle. When I was called to be Relief Society, I was in my early 30s. I was 32, 33, something like that.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:55] And.

Marian Johnson [00:32:56] And in my mind at that time, my Relief Society president was like somebody like my grandma was, somebody who was mature and wise and steady and a leader. And I felt like none of those things at all. So it was a. It was a heavy responsibility knowing I was somehow responsible for the spiritual and temporal well being of many, many diverse sisters. You know, like you were saying, you know, from 18 to, you know, very elderly, and it's this huge range of women and so many needs. And I was just very overwhelmed.

Marian Johnson [00:33:31] And I was fortunate to call some beautiful counselors and a secretary. And we met often. We met often just because they knew more. They had just combined the ward. So we were kind of a. A conglomeration of people trying to get to know each other. So I had counselors from the other ward, and the secretary was from the one I had come from. So when we combined, we had these four beautiful minds working together and trying to determine how can we help these sisters, how can we be there for them, what are their needs? And you start right in with the business of visiting, teaching.

Marian Johnson [00:34:13] It's called ministering now. But then it was, you know, two sisters are assigned to visit maybe two, three, three, four, five other sisters and visit them monthly. And so there. There's the business of. There are partnerships that don't get along. There are people who don't want to go to see somebody that else. And, you know, there's a. There's a lot of give and take in there.

Shelley Densley [00:34:33] That.

Marian Johnson [00:34:33] And we just. We felt very heavy that there was need, that there were probably marriage problems, parenting problems, financial problems. That was our responsibility to determine and help. And we took it very, very seriously. It's something that we cared deeply about.

Alisa Jones [00:34:59] I also felt it. And in terms of, like, receiving inspiration, I do feel like I received inspiration. Like when I called my counselors, I think now I felt a lot of love. I did feel when I received that calling, I just started immediately feeling loved and responsibility for all the sisters in my ward, there were two ways you could enter our neighborhood, and we were on the end of the entrance of one of them. But whenever we would come home, I would tell my husband, take the long way Because I wanted to drive through. It was like driving through the neighborhood. I just wanted to.

Alisa Jones [00:35:32] And in Utah, my neighborhood was my ward, so that was very convenient. But it was, you know, a few blocks, and we would drive through, and I would make sure the radio was off, and I just. I would look at the houses and I'd tell them to go slow because I wanted to just think about each of those families and those sisters and what I felt was just so much love for them. I had an experience my first Christmas where we did suffer Santa. So we would look for families who needed help at Christmas. And you have those people who will let you know what their needs are.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:04] Right.

Alisa Jones [00:36:04] But after Christmas, I realized there was a family who was never going to ask. And I felt that draw to always look for the people who wouldn't ask. And that was part of my driving through the neighborhood. And I kept a notebook by my bed, and anytime a thought would come into my head about someone, I tried to act on it.

Alisa Jones [00:36:29] The burden of that is that you can't always do all of it alone. So, like has been mentioned. It's heavy that I would go to bed thinking about these families and wake up thinking about these families. I have a picture of my three little kids on my bed, and on my nightstand is my scriptures, my notebook, and a stack of food orders.

Alisa Jones [00:36:48] And I just think about that. That that's what was my life for so long. And it was a heavy burden, but I wouldn't say it was all a bad burden, because I did feel so much love from them and. And for them.

Ricky Hein [00:37:04] Wow. Yeah. When I was called to be Relief Society president, I had just finished being a young woman's president for three years, and I loved the young women. I loved them. I could not relate in the slightest to them, but I loved them so much. And I was so young that I almost felt like one of them still.

Ricky Hein [00:37:31] And anyway, so I was burned out from young women's. I asked to be released because I was. It was time. And I remember going into the bishop's or the branch president's office, and he asked me to be Relief Society president. And I just burst into tears. And I was like, you're kidding, right? Like, I'm already burned out.

Ricky Hein [00:37:59] But because the church is true, I said yes. You know, you, like, do all the things. So I said yes. And I remember that next Sunday being called, and I was so overwhelmed. So overwhelmed. And I was sitting in my chair, and I remember they. You know, they say your name and you stand up, and I had an Experience that I will never forget. And I, I can't explain it now, you know, being out of the church now, I'm not really sure what it means now, but at the time I felt like I was literally being lifted out of my chair to be standing up to say yes to this calling.

Ricky Hein [00:38:45] And I just felt like it was something that I needed to do, like this was what I was doing. It was a very special moment for me. But I immediately felt that mantle that we've been talking about. Just how am I supposed to take care of these women? I was 25 years old and I had two little babies, little, little babies. And my husband was in law school and I was a piano teacher. Very part time.

Ricky Hein [00:39:21] We ourselves were on government assistance and paying rent with loans. And here I am trying to give of myself and I'm like, I don't have anything to give, but somehow you do it because that's what you do, you know. So anyway, the mantle, the feeling of the responsibility is, it's very real, it's very heavy. But as I've been listening to you all, you know, you just have such a love for the women that you're serving.

Ricky Hein [00:39:57] And at least for me, it was a constant. I was constantly thinking about them. Who can I reach out to? Who can I serve? Who needs a meal? Who needs a food order? Who needs me to watch their babies?

Ricky Hein [00:40:14] As if I didn't have enough babies in my house or, you know, who needs this? How can I help? What lessons do they need? What programs? Or, you know, it was constant. Yeah, constant. So that's the mantle. It was a constant. Heavy.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:34] Yeah.

Ricky Hein [00:40:35] I don't know if I would call it a burden now. I would call it a burden, but at the time it didn't feel that way. It felt like a blessing, to be honest.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:42] Yeah, I mean, one thing as you guys are all sharing that has me thinking is just how quickly you move from. I think, you know, I'll speak for me, you let me know if you would agree with this or not. But I feel like within Mormon culture there's this idea like when you show up on Sunday, it's kind of in this way of being your best self. In other words, like your children are dressed, we're gonna be reverent, we're in sacrament meeting.

John Dehlin [00:41:11] Sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:12] Like we're going to pay attention, we're going to. And you, it's sort of this, I don't know, optimized just highly. So when you look around, you have no sense really for what people are going through.

Shelley Densley [00:41:27] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:27] Because we're all, like, shielded up, showing up. And so as you were all talking, I was thinking how quickly that would, like, that would flip in a moment, as you're called. And you kind of are, you know, getting this sense for what's going on actually behind this shielded self that we bring, where we're trying to be perfect and we're trying to like you. Right. Be worthy, show that we're doing all the things that all of a sudden, you go from, like, 00 to 100 of, like, now we know everyone's things. So your. Your experience from one Sunday to the next really could be like, oh, I'm getting everyone shielded self to like, oh, my gosh, now I know everyone's story and what's going on in the backdrop. Is that what it felt like at all?

Ricky Hein [00:42:18] Absolutely. At least for me. Yes. It's shocking. Yeah.

Marian Johnson [00:42:23] Yeah. I went from. Well, I had five little ones when I was called to be Relief Study President. My youngest was just a nursing infant, and my husband and I were running a business together. I was doing all the bookkeeping, so I was already overwhelmed with kids in a business. And now I have these sisters. And, like, you're saying, like, you go to church and everyone's on their best behavior. Everybody looks great. Everybody looks like they want to be on the COVID of the church magazines. You know, we put on our best image, our best foot forward, because we want to look like we're righteous and we're happy.

Marian Johnson [00:43:00] And you become the really Society president, and you find out really, really quickly where the mental illness is, what kids are not being treated well at home, who's maybe going hungry, these kinds of things. And you really can't look at your congregation quite the same ever again.

Marian Johnson [00:43:22] You don't get the privilege of having that distance of, you look awesome. I look awesome. I'm fine. You're fine because now you know, and people are hurting, and you're just filled with so much love. How can I help these people? There are things I can't help with, but how can I help? And you pray a lot. How can I help?

Margi Dehlin [00:43:46] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Could we do something for a minute? I'm just curious, as Ricky was talking about kind of where she was in her own life when she was called. Could we just. I would love to hear maybe how old you were when you were called as Relief Society president. Maybe, you know, how many children at home, kind of. What was your state when you were called? Not actual state, but, you know, like the state of your life.

Being Called as Relief Society President

Ricky Hein [00:44:23] State of New Jersey. So I. Okay. I feel like such a nut answering these because I still feel like a baby. And I was such a baby then. So I was 25 when I was called and I had two babies at home. Ages, like, I don't know, barely three and one. And I quickly got pregnant with my third as I was Relief Society president and I. Yeah, I was a stay at home mom, part time piano teacher. My husband was in law school. Gone all the time because he's a very dedicated, focused student and person and.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:26] Yeah. Wow.

Ricky Hein [00:45:26] Anything else? What was. Can you add more to your question?

Margi Dehlin [00:45:29] And also, like three years as a young women's president, coming off a demanding calling.

Ricky Hein [00:45:36] Yes. So, you know, I was so young and I feel like I had no life experience. You know, I grew up in a bubble in Georgia. It was a very, like, idyllic childhood. And then I moved to a bubble at byu. Very. That's a different story. You know, and then I moved to New Jersey and I was in a bubble again. I was married suddenly and having kids, playing the role of a mature woman.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:17] Right.

Ricky Hein [00:46:18] Like all of a sudden I was expected to just be this role and I had no experience. It was like I. The branch was so different from my normal life, you know, very diverse, very poor. You know, drug, drugs, alcohol addiction, abuse, sexual abuse, jail, you know, very split up homes, government housing. Like, what am I doing? Right. I had no idea what I was doing.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:02] Yeah, yeah.

Ricky Hein [00:47:03] So that was my experience.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:05] But thank you.

Shelley Densley [00:47:07] Yeah.

Alisa Jones [00:47:08] I had previously served as a primary president for three years and I think I was 26 when I served as the primary president. And during that calling, I had my second child. And then I was 29 when I got called as the Relief Society president and I had my third baby. I had three babies pretty close together. I had my third baby while I was serving.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:27] Wow.

Alisa Jones [00:47:28] And we actually adopted a fourth while I was serving as Relief Society president, all my husband was working a full time job and I worked part time as a school psychologist. My sister is a nurse. She lived in our ward and she and I. My husband did four 10 hour shifts, so he watched our kids one day and my sister and I traded babysitting the other day. And then I had a nanny come in for the half a day. And so it was just very, very busy, very full. Relating to you about not feeling prepared. I didn't feel prepared. I didn't feel old enough or wise enough. I was willing. That's all I could give. It is. I was willing. And yeah, so that was the state I was in.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:12] Yeah.

Alisa Jones [00:48:13] I will say this, too. I think the busyness is part of the program.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:18] Oh, yes.

Alisa Jones [00:48:19] That I like. Even in terms of my own faith journey. It really wasn't until I got out of some of that so intense, the really intense callings, that I was able to step back and really start to think about my own spirituality. Because it was go, go, go.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:36] Yes.

Alisa Jones [00:48:37] And even now is something I'm trying to dismantle. Why do I need to be so busy all the time?

Ricky Hein [00:48:41] That's the church.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:43] That's right.

Ricky Hein [00:48:43] Program.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:44] That's right.

Ricky Hein [00:48:46] Sorry. Yeah. I was going to say that's the program. Like we're conditioned to achieve and do and be.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:51] That's right. That's right.

Alisa Jones [00:48:54] So slowing that down and just learning to be and not always needing to serve and not always needing to do is something I'm still working on, and I'm 50 years old.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:04] Really quickly. Like, those who are never Mormon may not know, and many Mormons don't know, that the Mormon Church has assets estimated to be $250 billion just in, like, investments in stocks and bonds and real estate and cash. Were any of y' all compensated for your work?

Margi Dehlin [00:49:22] Oh, yeah. That's important.

Alisa Jones [00:49:24] No, we could get reimbursed from the budget. We had, like, a budget.

Ricky Hein [00:49:27] No.

John Dehlin [00:49:27] For your work?

Alisa Jones [00:49:27] No.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:30] For your time, energy.

Ricky Hein [00:49:31] We received blessings, John. That was the answer.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:36] That's right.

Alisa Jones [00:49:36] Blessings.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:37] That's right.

Marian Johnson [00:49:38] No, there was no payment or. No, not even close.

Shelley Densley [00:49:43] Nothing. Just lots and lots of time and love. We just gave it all away for free.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:52] Can we go back, though? So can I hear also for you?

Marian Johnson [00:49:55] Oh, yes. Okay. So I did share a little bit of that. So, yes, I was. I would say 33 at the time. So this was a little while ago. Five kids. Eleven.

Shelley Densley [00:50:07] Nine?

Marian Johnson [00:50:09] Eight.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:09] Yeah.

Marian Johnson [00:50:10] Four newborn. And yeah, I think my. My baby was six months old when the. The bishop called me one day. And. And as bishops go, this guy was wonderful. I love. I love this man forever. He was such a. Such a sweet and authentic and generous man. Anyway, he called and said, hey, can I come over and visit with you about something? Like, you know, that sums up when you get that call.

Marian Johnson [00:50:36] So he arranged the time to come. And I'm upstairs looking down as he pulls up in his car. He pulls up out front of my house, and he sits there. He sits there for a long time. A long time. I mean, he's thinking. He's thinking really hard about whatever he's coming in to say to me. And, yeah, he came in. He sat with me in My living room. And he said, I want you to know that I don't feel super comfortable about this.

Marian Johnson [00:51:05] What we're going to talk about right now. Oh, dear. This does not bode well, because, like I said, I have these five kids. My husband and I have a small business that we run together. I'm doing all the accounting for that business, the accounts receivable payable, the marketing, all that kind of stuff. And I frequently have to go to our place of business at a moment's notice. So kids and the business. And he knows this. This bishop knows this. So he said, I have been inspired to call you to be the new Relief Society president of this ward that's just been combined and put together.

Marian Johnson [00:51:43] And he said, I want you to know that I appreciate your life circumstance, and I see how busy you are. And he says, I have wrestled with the Lord this. About this a lot, but he said, the Lord wants you in this job.

Marian Johnson [00:52:01] And knowing how kind he was and how sincere he was, his spirit and mine, I guess, maybe communicated there. And I just felt his great love and his great compassion for the people in our ward, in our congregation, and. And, you know, it's almost like that love just went from his heart to my heart, and I just said, yeah, Bishop, I'll do it. I'll do it.

Shelley Densley [00:52:33] So I felt too young to be the Relief society president at 47. All you guys were so young. I felt like I didn't have enough wisdom or experience. And it seemed like all the previous Relief Society presidents were at least in their 50s, so.

Shelley Densley [00:52:49] So I was 47. My kids. I had two older teenagers. I think my daughter was married. She got married young. So I think my older kids were, like, 20 and maybe 22. And then my younger kids were, like, 10 and 12. We have a big gap right in the middle. And so the two youngest are boys. And this bishop is a very kind bishop. He's actually a mission president now in Idaho with his wife. But he had just called me not too many months before to be in a primary presidency, and he tends to be really rushed. And I really believe that when you call somebody that you really need to sit down and talk to them, see how they're doing and invite the spirit in.

Shelley Densley [00:53:32] Well, he didn't do that at all to give me the primary to ask me to be in the primary presidency. So I didn't accept it, and I said I'd think about it. And he was, you know, so I did finally accept that calling. But so now this time, he invites my husband and I to come into his office during pack meeting, and I thought for sure it was for my husband. He's always had really big callings, which I was grateful for in awaken. I knew that they would not be able to ask me to do anything. And. Yeah. So we're sitting there, and he's like, actually, this calling is for you, Shelley.

Shelley Densley [00:54:05] And he gets teary. Okay. I'm like, hmm, wow. What is he gonna ask me? I had no idea. And then he said, you know, the Lord wants you to be the lucifelity president of this word. And I was like, you're kidding. I said, no. I said, you know, I'm a really good support person. I'm not a very good leader. I don't like to be the leader, and I don't want to be the leader. And he said, well, if it makes you feel any better, you were not on my list. And I was like. I go, you know, actually, that does make me feel better, because it's not you talking.

Marian Johnson [00:54:35] You are not my choice.

Shelley Densley [00:54:36] You're not my choice. The Lord wants you to be the Belief Study president. And still I didn't accept it. And we walked out, and I said, think about it. And maybe the convert in me, I don't have a lot of that built in.

Shelley Densley [00:54:49] I don't know what it is, but I don't catch on to something so quick because I wasn't raised Mormon, not really. So anyways, I did think about it, but I remember walking back to the PAC meeting. I had to walk by the Relief Society room, and I looked inside, and I just shuddered. I was like, ugh. You know, like, I do not want to do this. So I had a lot of fear in me, and I had a lot of, like, I was worried. I just was afraid, and I didn't think I'd get support. I went to the temple and I prayed about it, and one of the things I'd always do in the celestial room is open up the scriptures.

Shelley Densley [00:55:22] And it fell right to a scripture in Isaiah. I can't remember exactly, but there's a song after. It's like, fear not. I will lift thee. I will support thee. There's a song. I can't remember all that now, but I was like, oh, my gosh. Shoot, there's the answer. I'm supposed to be the Relief Society president. I will be supported. And so I did it.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:43] Yeah.

Shelley Densley [00:55:45] I can't remember. What other part of the question was there?

Margi Dehlin [00:55:48] No, that was. Yeah. Just getting a sense for where you all were kind of in your Lives especially within this kind of Mormon expectation that you don't turn down a calling.

Ricky Hein [00:56:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:01] Would any of y' all feel comfortable saying no

Alisa Jones [00:56:06] at that point? No. Yes, I would say no now. I mean, then, no, I would not have felt comfortable.

Shelley Densley [00:56:12] I turned down callings before just because I was told that I'm supposed to be inspired to receive callings, and I turned them down. And I had a really good reason. My oldest son was young. He had a developmental disability. He's fine now, but they kept trying to get me to be his teacher. I'm like, no, that isn't. I'm just gonna peek around the corners and make sure he's being good, but I'm not gonna be his teacher. So I turned down a lot of

John Dehlin [00:56:34] callings, and I'm wondering if that's normal. Sumarian, how about you?

Marian Johnson [00:56:38] Yeah, I was definitely trained that one never turns down a calling ever. That if you turn down a calling, that it shows that you're not faithful. So. No, I would not possibly have even considered saying no, Alisa.

Alisa Jones [00:56:54] I would not have turned down a calling. No.

Shelley Densley [00:56:57] Yeah.

Ricky Hein [00:56:58] Yeah, I think I would. But I have to be totally honest. When I got the call, I felt good about myself in the really sick way. I was like, wow, I must be great.

Alisa Jones [00:57:15] Yeah.

Ricky Hein [00:57:16] And so I was like, well, I guess I'll do it, because it's like the next step. It's like an honor.

Alisa Jones [00:57:24] Yeah.

Marian Johnson [00:57:25] And, yeah, if. If I could kind of follow up on that, if I may. I don't know if you've, like, you've heard the term the. The pick me girl. You know, like, when you're out with your girls. This was a long time ago when I was out with my girls. But, you know, you'd go out dancing and, you know, the good looking guy would come over to your group, and you're thinking, pick me, pick me. And so I think like. Like you say, this calling being extended to me felt like two things. One, like, I was further on the path of a righteous woman's life. So that was some validation in that way. And the other thing was, it was kind of a pick me thing. Like, hey, the brethren who run this ward, they see me, and that's kind of validating in itself.

Shelley Densley [00:58:10] There's some. There's some respect that goes with it, too. I liked. I always wanted to think that the primary leader was just as important as the bishop. But when I became Relief Society president, I realized that people did look up to me and respect me, that there was some, I don't know if you want to call it power, I'm not sure what you call it, but I felt something different that I'd never felt before.

John Dehlin [00:58:30] There's status.

Shelley Densley [00:58:32] Status, yeah, there was status, you know, and my kids are a little wild. You know, they're the kids that are running on top of the church when everyone's having a potluck. And it's just kind of. It helped people respect me more and more. And I was able to, I don't know, like, protect my kids more, actually protect them, protect. You know, and I might get into that story later how there's. There's physical grabbing and abuse, you know, and just physical abuse. And I was able to have more power in that to protect kids from other leaders grabbing them and stuff, just because I was Relief Society president.

John Dehlin [00:59:08] Anyone else feel status?

Alisa Jones [00:59:09] I felt validated. I think I felt validated that my sins have been forgiven and that I was worthy. And, like Marian said, that it was that next step on the journey. But real validation that I'm doing okay because they're not going to call me if I'm such a mess.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:30] That's right. That's right.

John Dehlin [00:59:32] Are you feeling something, Marian?

Marian Johnson [00:59:34] Oh, no, no. I was just thinking, you know, that validation because. And I didn't realize this until very recently, late bloomer, like I say, but just being a woman in a patriarchal system, which I never saw it that way. I didn't have the words for that. I didn't have the language for that at that time. But, you know,

Ricky Hein [01:00:05] you.

Marian Johnson [01:00:07] If you go to an LDS church building, you can walk around any room and you will see pictures of men everywhere. Everywhere. In the primary room, in chapels, in the foyers and whatever. You will only find a picture of a woman in the Relief Society room, which in a way, makes that a very sacred space for a woman. But you also know that your voice and your presence is simply not entirely welcome. Not entirely in your spot. Yes. But there is just somehow a sense that they want me, but they don't really want me. I don't know if that makes any sense.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:52] Yeah, yeah,

Ricky Hein [01:00:56] yeah, I agree. I think. Yeah, like I said, it just felt really validating, really. Like, wow, I can't believe I've done this already in my life. You know, I can't believe they want me. But to be quite honest with you, they didn't have many people to pick from in my circumstance. So it was kind of like you're the default. So. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:23] Yeah. I do think it's interesting, as women in particular in the church, too, do you feel like we are so conditioned to be chosen. Like, it's like so much of what we're going for, what we're reaching for, whether that's, you know, in partnering with another person, it's very much about, like, being chosen and feeling special and feeling. As opposed to us choosing, like, being empowered to choose. Like, what do I want, what do I. What feels good to me? What feels. And, and I'm hearing that a little bit in all of. Of what you're saying.

Ricky Hein [01:02:07] Yeah. Wow. I, I. That resonates with me a lot, because I think as women, we have to be chosen. We don't get to make the choices. And so we're silently kind of in the background raising kids, being supportive wives, being supportive mothers or leaders, and we want to kind of climb the ranks a little bit and be in charge more than we are. So maybe we just crave that. And once it happens, you're like, wow, great. Like, I can do this now. But maybe what men don't realize is that we're doing that and still in the background handling all the things.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:01] That's right. Yeah.

Alisa Jones [01:03:04] I think about. I had issues with polygamy really early on, and polygamy for me is so connected with that being chosen, that one woman is not enough, and that you have to earn your worthiness in a way or prove your worthiness in some way. And so as I have figured out my issues with polygamy, I think it's just so intertwined with that as women, it's just not built into the system to have us have authority and power. That's right. And so it did feel very validating. I will say this, too. Part of my journey has been figuring out that my own. I need to validate myself. And like you said, choosing what do I want, not waiting for me to be. To be chosen. That was a beautiful way to put it.

Worthiness Culture and Women's Roles

Marian Johnson [01:03:54] Oh, yeah. 100% that the being chosen. You are chosen to be a wife. Yeah. It's just really interesting now that I'm at an older place in life where I'm finding, you know, I've had to look back on 40 years of adult church activity and thinking the only time I ever had a voice was occasionally in a presidency when I could sit in a ward council meeting. A ward council meeting, being the bishop, his counselors, and the presidents of all the organizations, and you sit there in a meeting.

Marian Johnson [01:04:32] And I've been in a lot of presidencies, so I've been in a lot of these meetings for a long time. And some bishops like, this beautiful bishop that called me to be the Relief Society president would turn to me and say, president Johnson, what do you think?

Marian Johnson [01:04:50] But that was rare. And yet my soul craved it. It ate it up. And it kind of makes me a little bit sad now to think how rare that was, that I should be grateful for that tiny little crumb.

Marian Johnson [01:05:07] But I've sat in a lot of other ward council meetings where I'm ignored and where my suggestions are diminished. And so, yeah, it's an ongoing battle of, I want to be heard, can I be heard? And I really, really liked. My favorite calling of all time was gospel doctrine teacher.

Marian Johnson [01:05:29] Because you can search wide and deep for things that people don't know, and you can't rattle their cage too much, but that's where you really had a voice. And I absolutely loved that calling.

Shelley Densley [01:05:46] One of the things that really surprised me just recently starting to work with a coach is that the most important relationship I can ever have is with myself. At first, that scared me. It made me cry because I was like, oh, my gosh. Really? Just with me, like, the church connects you to God and Jesus Christ. That's your most important relationship. And then your husband, like, you know, you learn in the temple that that's the only way you can go to the highest kingdom, the celestial kingdom, is to be in partnership with your husband. And then to learn that actually the most important relationship I can ever have is with myself. I was shocked, but it totally makes sense. I'm an individual. I'm not connected to somebody for all eternity. I'm an individual. And that's good. That's okay. We're all individuals. So

Ricky Hein [01:06:38] may I say one more thing that I have been thinking about that a lot, because you know the scripture about the natural man as an enemy to God. And when I was working with Leah Young, she, for the first time celebrated my exploration of faith.

Ricky Hein [01:07:03] And that scripture came to my mind immediately because I was. You know, I'm. I'm now 36 years old, and I've had 36 years of scriptures coming to mind. And I just started crying because I thought, my natural man is so good, my natural woman is so good. And I'm the one doing this. It's me. It's my brain, it's my education and my. My soul, whatever that is, you know, and coming out here to Utah, too, seeing the beautiful mountains, the thought came to my mind as I was in the plane, like, I am moving my own mountains.

Ricky Hein [01:07:44] I am doing the work for myself. And so. And it's taken a Long time. Because for so long we do that. I think as women, we do that just so naturally for other people. We want to help, we want to do, we want to love and serve. But it's taken a while to kind of figure out, like, we need to do that for ourselves first in order to be able to do it or help others.

Shelley Densley [01:08:11] So, anyway, one thing I realized too, just recently is that we are a sexual person all by ourselves. And as young women, we're taught that we're supposed to save everything for our husbands, that masturbation is wrong. Now, I wasn't raised Mormon, so that was something I'd learned as a little girl. I don't know where I learned it, but I remember when I unlearned it sitting in seminary, they wrote this big long word that started with an M on the board, and I was like, hmm, I don't know what that is. And they explained what it is. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, that's wrong. You know?

Shelley Densley [01:08:44] And so really, as this is my opinion, really, as people, we're supposed to understand ourselves sexually, all by ourselves. We're a sexual being. It shouldn't just be that burden shouldn't be connected to our husbands or put on them. And that's another thing that we were totally robbed of when we were young, you know, from the church teaching us the opposite. Of course,

Marian Johnson [01:09:09] one thing as I'm hearing you talking about things that you're now learning or that make sense to you now, is the whole worthiness thing. The church is a very worthy centric organization. You have to have a worthiness interview for the temple or for a new calling or the young people, as they grow up, they're supposed to have a yearly worthiness interview. And one of the things that just blew my mind in the last few years is when I, through meditation, sat there and just tears streaming down my face, realizing I have been worthy all along. There is nothing I can do that would make me unworthy in the eyes of a loving universe. And I have always been worthy. That absolutely blew my mind.

Shelley Densley [01:10:08] That's beautiful. So true.

John Dehlin [01:10:13] Really quickly, would you mind? I've never been in a Mormon bishopric, but apparently there are bishop meetings where it's like the bishop and his counselors and maybe some secretary, meaning a man who's like the executive secretary or something. And then there are, I don't know, ward council meetings. Can you describe how decisions get made, how problems or issues are identified? Is it with or without women in the room? Is it with or without the input of the relative presidents and then to what extent you're either determining what the priorities are or should be learning about what the problems are, recommending what the priorities are, or just kind of like after the conversations have all happened, kind of receiving the marching orders and then doing the bidding of the bishop. Does that question make sense?

Ward Council Dynamics and Power Structures

Marian Johnson [01:11:07] Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Alisa Jones [01:11:08] You go ahead.

Marian Johnson [01:11:09] Yeah, I'll just really quick. I've been in lots and lots of different ward council meetings because I've been presidents of young women's and other things. And it largely depends on the bishop, actually, because some bishops want to have a lot of input and they like a lot of feedback. And so they'll ask everybody, women included, you know, what are your thoughts? How. How should we proceed about this? You know, how. How should. How shall we work together to. To take care of these people or to solve these problems. And then you'll have other bishops who are, you know, they're very, very, very business oriented. They have an agenda. Here's item 1, 2, 3, 4. This is what I'd like to do. Anyone object? Okay, here's your job. Here's your job. Here's your job. Go.

John Dehlin [01:11:59] Others.

Alisa Jones [01:12:00] When I served, there were two meetings. One was, I think pec, Priesthood Executive Committee. Anyway, it was basically everybody but the women leaders. So you have the Primary Young Women's and Relief Society. So we were excluded from that meeting. And I don't know what different decisions they made there versus ward council.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:20] That's interesting.

Alisa Jones [01:12:21] And then ward council was another week, and that's where we were invited. My understanding is that now there's just ward council and that everyone's included. At least that's my understanding. So I would sometimes come to ward council meeting and we were behind the eight ball on what was. What had happened in the previous meeting or after that priesthood meeting. My bishop would call me and talk to me about what had happened there. He needs my input on something. And I agree with Marian. It's very much dependent on the bishop, I think, sometimes maybe how. What his. How he was raised, what kind of profession he has as to whether he's more collaborative or whether he makes more mandates.

Alisa Jones [01:13:01] The bishops I served with were very collaborative and always sought my input. And I did feel like I could always share my input with them, and so I didn't have too many issues that way. It is still up to them, though, how they make those decisions. But I did feel like I always had a voice in those.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:19] Got it.

Shelley Densley [01:13:19] So pec. I can't. So what I remember.

John Dehlin [01:13:22] What is the acronym for those who

Shelley Densley [01:13:24] don't know, precinct executive committee.

John Dehlin [01:13:26] Okay.

Shelley Densley [01:13:27] So I thought, so what I remember. And it wasn't that long ago we had welfare meeting and I was the only woman in that meeting. So maybe that was the priesthood executive whatever meeting. Maybe it was, I'm not sure. But I went to a meeting all by myself with just the bishopric, the ward clerk, and I think.

Shelley Densley [01:13:47] I think the elder. It's different now. They just have what, the elders quorum. But it was elders quorum and high priest group. But I felt like it was just me and the bishopric and we. That's where the most delicate of subjects were discussed, especially if it was pertaining to the women, the relief study women and I. And they always asked my. They were very respectful. They always asked my opinion as long if it had to do with the women. So I know they met before me. Maybe that was just their meeting, their bishopric meeting. But there was that meeting. And then of course, there was ward council and all the auxiliary leaders were in that meeting. So

Margi Dehlin [01:14:24] go ahead.

Ricky Hein [01:14:25] Do you want to go ahead?

Margi Dehlin [01:14:25] Oh, no.

Ricky Hein [01:14:26] Okay. Yeah. So ours was similar and. And we. To kind of give an idea. I don't know what time your ward started, but ours started at nine. And we did ward council before church. And at the time my husband was on the high council and he was not with me. And so he was off driving. And in South Jersey, you know, the stake is. It's all of South Jersey. And so he was driving an hour away to a different ward each Sunday to talk. And so I had the two kids at the church, 7:30am Like, I packed a breakfast. There they were in their little white shirts and ties, you know, running around.

Ricky Hein [01:15:11] And so it felt chaotic already. But during the Word counselor or branch council, I guess, same things. It was like, you know, either you had branch presidents or bishops that were like, okay, here's your job, here's your job. Here's your job.

Ricky Hein [01:15:30] In our case, it felt like our missionaries were invited to Word Council. I don't know if that was the case for you guys, but the missionaries were there and most of Word counsel was how can we baptize? How can we get more people to come to our branch? How can we reach out to those people? And hardly any of the branch council was talking about very specific needs. I mean, sometimes it was, but mostly it was like logistics, logistical stuff. It wasn't. If we needed to talk about specific things about specific people, we would, you know, make an appointment with the bishop or whatever. So ward council was just like business.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:17] There's a. There's a recent quote from one of the members of the Mormon Church General Relief Study Presidency, which is like one of the three women over, I don't know, the global Relief Societies collectively, Annette Dennis. And she's quoted as saying, there's no other religious organization in the world that I know of that has a broadly given power, and that has so broadly given power and authority to women.

John Dehlin [01:16:47] So when you think about the structures of a ward and who makes decisions and how they get made, how would each of you respond? Ricky's already laughing. How would you respond to this idea that you were given more power than any women ever in any church, in any organization in the history of mankind kind of thing? I'm sorry, I overstated that, but you're all laughing, so I'm.

John Dehlin [01:17:11] Do I start? Ricky, Each of you can respond to that, what you felt, whether the structure and the decision making reflected this characterization of you being given tremendous power. Not that it's all about power.

Ricky Hein [01:17:25] Just like. No, You know, to give. I will definitely give credit to the branch president in my branch that I was in because he was extremely loving and equal. It felt very equal. Well, maybe not equal, but it felt very empowering. He supported us. But no, it's just the structure of the church is not. It's just not that way. You always have to report to another man, and you're always reporting to someone else. Someone else, Someone else. And it's always a man. Yeah. I have more to say about women in the priesthood and things like that, but that's a different topic.

Alisa Jones [01:18:24] So I think for me, differentiating too, between the hierarchy of the church and the patriarchy. So the hierarchy, I think men are also. They have to take marching orders, too. But there's a difference because women don't have the priesthood. And so although we are given power, that power can be taken and given at any point in time, depending on our bishop or our stake president, on his opinion or on how he interprets things. And so is that true power, when it can be given and taken and where it's dependent on someone else's perception of it? Maybe I'll share a story really quick. Is that.

Ricky Hein [01:19:02] Okay, great.

John Dehlin [01:19:02] We love stories.

Alisa Jones [01:19:03] Okay, so this was. This wasn't when I. Yes. This wasn't when I was Relief Society president. It was a few years ago. I was called to be the counselor, sorry, the director of camp for our ward relief system or our ward Young women's. And that's where you plan a camp for four to five days for all of the young women between 10 and 40 young women who are going to go to a camp in the summer.

Alisa Jones [01:19:30] And I was really involved with the committee. I was leading the committee, which involved several of the young women's leaders and the young women's president. And we had. I mean, we had it planned fantastically. I had a list of all the assignments. There are a lot of just.

Responsibilities and Logistics of the Role

Alisa Jones [01:19:48] You have to plan for the food, for transportation, for where kids are gonna sleep, for, you know, all of. All of that part. And then the spiritual aspects, the activities, just a lot of moving parts. So I had everything written down. And we had decided that we were going to have a spiritual playlist of music to play for when we just wanted things to be more spiritual, like before our testimony, meeting, before bed, things like that. And then we were going to create a fun playlist. So secular music, but that was appropriate.

Alisa Jones [01:20:19] And so on my list, I had those as two things. I was going to make the secular playlist and somebody else was doing the spiritual one. And about three months into the planning, we had a meeting where a member of the bishopric came to the meeting. And we were just going over my list and he didn't say anything. And we left the meeting. And a couple of days later, we got notification. The president and I got an email from him saying that the bishopric was asking us to have no secular music at camp, that they wanted it just to be spiritual because this is a time for the young women to just be away from the world.

Alisa Jones [01:20:54] I totally understand that and acknowledge that it is a time to be away from the world. And he listed some scriptures and some quotes from lds.org and if he had. If we had any questions, we could reach out to him. So I had some questions. And so we reached out and I asked for a meeting with the young women's president, myself, the bishop, and that counselor. And so in that meeting, I had prepared ahead of time my thoughts. And so I explained four things. The first was just the decision itself that how important it was to have some level of fun. It's hard to engage and help girls feel like they want to come.

Alisa Jones [01:21:32] And through that fun, we can connect, we can have downtime. So I kind of explained all the reasons we wanted to have fun, a fun playlist. I then explained that I was really uncomfortable, and I have found my voice more and more strongly over the years. But the second thing I brought up was just how it feels to have him not engage in a conversation with us, but to give us a mandate to come into after the meeting, not say Anything, not seek to be understood, but just leave that meeting and then give us a mandate and undo something that we had been very thoughtful about doing.

Alisa Jones [01:22:10] And that that feels ugly and not collaborative for him not to engage in a conversation. The third thing I brought up was the fact that I know because of the camp, the previous camp, my husband and my son, we had it at our cabin.

Alisa Jones [01:22:25] They allowed the men to have the young men to have music, secular music, Secular music. And perhaps it wasn't planned, perhaps it wasn't. I had it planned. Maybe that's the downfall, is that I had it planned out where theirs was more spontaneous, but that same bishop was there and they allowed for secular music with them. And then the fourth point I brought up is what it's like to be a woman in leadership in the church, and that you can do all of the planning and all of the work and all of the heavy lifting, and then just based on an opinion by a male leader that can be undone.

Alisa Jones [01:23:03] He can come in and edit pieces he doesn't like with just looking. Having one meeting with us when we have been very prayerful and thoughtful about how we were going to implement all of that. So I laid it all out for them. I was very polite but direct in laying all of that out for them.

Alisa Jones [01:23:23] And they think that I will say the counselor defended his position in that meeting. But I left feeling like I have convinced them that this is the right thing to do. And a few days later we got notification. And I also felt in that time that I was watching my bishop and I was watching his counselor. And I felt like he was going to have to either pick me or his counselor, that he was put in a position of having to pick one of us.

Alisa Jones [01:23:51] So we got notification that he was backing the counselor and we were not going to have secular music at camp. And that hurt more than the initial response because I had put myself out there and taken a risk to go have this tough conversation.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:06] Yes.

Alisa Jones [01:24:07] And I know the bishop loves me. I know he does, but that was. That was painful. So this idea of power, not really. We don't really have the power when it can come in and be edited by someone else. So the follow up to that story is I had decided, all right, I have two choices. I either quit now over this, or I go to camp and make it work. Because the only people who are going to suffer are the girls and the young women leaders. So I went to camp, and then when I got home, I had a conversation with the bishop and I released myself from the calling And I just said, I'm only going to accept callings where I can have autonomy and where that doesn't happen for me anymore.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:51] Wow. Brilliant.

Shelley Densley [01:24:52] Good for you.

Ricky Hein [01:24:53] Elise is a badass.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:55] Come on.

Alisa Jones [01:24:56] Trying, trying. And the follow up to that, the follow up to the follow up is that my bishop apologized and he said that he realizes it was a mistake. He had come for one of the evenings of camp and the counselor had come for one of the evenings of camp. They hadn't been there the whole time. And he said it was a mistake for us to not allow the music, and it was a mistake for us the way we handled it. But I hadn't heard from the counselor, and one day I was in primary doing the music, and he came in and this was probably three or four months later.

Alisa Jones [01:25:25] And he came in and was very tearful and very humble. And he apologized and he acknowledged that he's learning a lot about women in the church and that he had taken what I had said and had been thinking about it, and I appreciated that, but it still didn't change my mind. I don't feel like I'm going to ever go back to that again.

Alisa Jones [01:25:46] And also I started considering, you know, is it my job to teach everyone? I think that's part of my journey of staying in the church, is trying to enact change in some way. But it's not my job anymore to teach you how to include women.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:01] Right, right. Can we follow up just really quickly with all of you? Maybe along a similar line? Have any of the rest of you experienced a moment where, as Relief Society president, you had some type of power move or where you experienced authority or power when you had an idea or something that you were really going for, and in a moment, you experienced to that. Do any of. Just wanted to check in about that.

Marian Johnson [01:26:32] Yeah. And this is actually when I was a young women's president. I hope it's okay to kind of segue there, but it's a very similar calling. You're over all the adolescent girls. And it's kind of. It was known in the church at that time. And this is, you know, like late 90s, I guess. When I was young women's president, this would have been early 2000s. The boys would take what we call super trips or adventure trips. And every summer, the young men in the ward would go on a massive adventure, whitewater rafting or something along those lines.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:03] Something called high adventure.

Marian Johnson [01:27:05] High adventure, yeah. Right. High adventure, yes. Thank you. And the girls would have girls camp, which Elisa was talking about. Well, I had the 16, 17 year old girls. And I mean, these are young women, these are, these are about to leave home and go to school or whatever they're going to do. And I thought, you know what we need to do a high adventure.

Marian Johnson [01:27:28] And I begged and pleaded, I asked our bishop, may I take me and my counselor, may we take five girls to the Shakespearean Festival in Southern Utah? And he thought, and he thought, and he thought and he said, oh, I don't think you should, and you should probably have a priesthood holder go with you. And you know, on and on and on. And I just, just please, please, please, please, please let us go. And he acquiesced. He says, you're going to have to earn all your own money. I don't have it in the budget. You need to have a fundraiser, Go do your thing and I want to know where you're going and keep me posted on everything.

Marian Johnson [01:28:00] I mean, he's concerned. That's great. He should be concerned. So we went, we raised our own money. We went to the Shakespearean Festival and some of these girls had hardly heard of Shakespeare, much less seen, you know, a live theater play. It was wonderful. And we had such an adventure and we talked till three in the morning, you know, it was great. It was great.

Marian Johnson [01:28:21] The next summer I asked permission to do something like this again. And I was told no, that the grand nature of our trip was not appreciated by certain priesthood leaders. That we had gone too far, done something a little too exotic, and we needed to do something very small and very much closer to home from then on. That's very disappointing.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:45] Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

Shelley Densley [01:28:48] I have a story. It's not, it's. Were they. Okay, so here's my story. My son was in Cub Scouts and the leader is a convert. So this is actually a positive story, what I was allowed to do. But I'm sure nobody knew. But anyways, he invited moms that, like a single mom and me to go on the Cub Scout sleepover.

Shelley Densley [01:29:13] And usually they're not allowed, women are not allowed to go. But it ended up I was the only one. And so I was allowed to go out to the desert, out to the river, out in Imperial Valley. That's in like El Centro, California. It's really hot out there. And I was invited to go out there and stay with the boys. It was just me.

Shelley Densley [01:29:33] I rented a big truck and I slept in it. But it was so cool that he's like, I don't agree. You know, moms should be able to come if the dads can't come. The moms should be able to come. And I remember the mission president was in our ward, and he drove his son out later the following day after I'd spent the night. And he just looked at me. He was so surprised to see me, the only woman out there. With all the men leaders, there's just like. I think there was three of them and me. You know, I know that's kind of unheard of, but I got to do that because he's a convert.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:03] Yeah. Yeah.

Ricky Hein [01:30:07] So I wasn't Relief Society president too long, so I don't really have, like, a grand answer for this, but the only thing I can really think of is when I was in Young Women's, I quickly realized that the lessons that I was teaching were 0% relevant.

Ricky Hein [01:30:29] And so I did not follow any, like, program of you teach this this week and this next week, and this next week. I picked based on what I felt needed to be done. And I did the same thing in Relief Society. And I never asked.

Ricky Hein [01:30:47] I just did it. And I don't think. No, I'm positive they would not have an issue with that, my specific branch presidency, but I did it anyway. And just listening to all of your answers for this, by the way, I'm noticing that we, as women in the church, are very careful.

Ricky Hein [01:31:10] Like, we have to be so careful. And that is ridiculous. Like, why do we have to walk on eggshells to get our way? It's like, we have to almost manipulate our way into getting what we want, which should not be the case.

Ricky Hein [01:31:27] And so, like, why should I have to ask what lessons I can teach when I'm the one given the responsibility to teach? Like, shouldn't I have some kind of say? And that's what I thought, so that's why I did. But any answer that we just gave, it's like, we have. Why do we even have to ask? Why do we have to even get it approved or whatever if we are the ones with the calling?

Shelley Densley [01:31:51] Yeah, we have to be careful.

Ricky Hein [01:31:53] So careful.

Shelley Densley [01:31:54] And we're thought of as, oh, you know, the sisters are so sweet.

Ricky Hein [01:31:59] Right.

Shelley Densley [01:32:00] And they're always so compliant, and they get along with everyone. And so you go into those meetings and if you buck the system at all, just with, like, yeah, no, no one's my. I had a situation with visiting teaching.

Shelley Densley [01:32:14] There is an apartment complex, and one of the less active sisters with a husband who is not a member lived on the bottom floor. And my really good friend lived upstairs and could see her apartment perfectly. And this husband of the Less active. Who was less active? Her husband was really violent, and he beat someone with a golf club out in the parking lot one time. And I said, you know what? No visiting teachers are going to that house anymore. And the men are all like, oh, you know, like, I got the feeling like they did not like me saying that, but I'm like, you know, her visiting teacher can meet her at the park, and it's only, like, two blocks away.

Shelley Densley [01:32:52] I said, but no women are going to that apartment again. It is not safe. So I didn't feel safe walking past that apartment to go to my friend's house. He just sat there and stared, and, you know, he dealt drugs and stuff. I just didn't feel that any women should go in that apartment. And I didn't feel supported in making that decision, but they let me do it.

Alisa Jones [01:33:12] I do think, as women, maybe in general, in society, but specifically in the church, we have to be very aware of our tone, or we are conditioned to be very aware of our tone, that you don't want to come off as aggressive or demanding.

Alisa Jones [01:33:31] And so I've been very aware of that. And I would say professionally, I'm aware of it as well, but it's different in a patriarchy. You're very aware. Because I want my voice to be heard, but in order to do that, I have the way I go about saying it is important, and I don't think that that's necessarily wrong in the world, but it's wrong when it's different for women than it is for men. You know, a man could walk into ward council and say what he thinks, and I would always have to be very thoughtful about how I approached it. And so that's very true. That tone. Tone absolutely matters. And we are conditioned to be very careful.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:06] Yeah.

Ricky Hein [01:34:07] And the way. I don't know if you all experienced this, but the way that we were treated, I was treated very kindly. Very kindly. But some people treated me very gently or, like, sweetly, because I am a woman. I'm like, you don't really need to do that. I'm just me, you know, like, we can be real. You don't need to. Their stereotypes. And I didn't want to be that stereotype, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:34:41] Yeah. Yep.

Alisa Jones [01:34:45] When I was Relief Society president, I think part of the reason I was called is because I. When I was primary president and I was in ward council, things would come up about families, and so I would talk to my bishop afterward and make recommendations for things they could do at the school level, I was a resource to him.

Alisa Jones [01:35:02] Because I was involved in that in the outside world. And I think that's part of the reason. I know it is. He told me that that was part of the reason he called me to be Relief Society president. And he shared with me that he had learned the value of listening to all of the people in the ward, including women. And I know that's why he chose me, because I wasn't afraid to speak up, and that he did view me as an important asset to the ward.

Alisa Jones [01:35:28] But I. Once again, that's dependent. If a bishop didn't want that, he's not going to call someone who is strong and will communicate. And so then that ward is not going to have that representation in their meetings.

Favorite and Most Meaningful Moments

Margi Dehlin [01:35:46] So as you're kind of reflecting on your time, maybe being Relief Society president, are there beautiful moments or things that you really loved about your time serving in the calling that any of you would feel comfortable sharing, just kind of the beautiful or things you loved? Yeah,

Marian Johnson [01:36:08] we held an event. One of my counselors said, you know what? We work all the time. We work 24 7, we women. And she said, what? How about instead of having some ward dinner or something like that for our next event that we're going to plan, because that's what Relief Studies is. You plan events. You do ward dinners and parties and things like that, because women do great parties.

Marian Johnson [01:36:36] She said, what if we do something just for the sisters and not have it for couples, not have it for families? Let's do something for the sisters where we celebrate just being women. And it was such a phenomenally unusual idea that we would do something just to celebrate us. I loved it. And, yeah, we planned a dinner. We asked some of the men if they wouldn't mind doing valet parking, if they would host, take each of the sisters by the arm and seat her at a table with a towel over their arm. You know, they played a maitre d role.

Marian Johnson [01:37:13] And we had this evening where some of the sisters, I mean, you get everybody to show up for a dinner, but you got a lot of people who don't normally come, and you got some of the older sisters who maybe didn't always feel comfortable going out in public, dressed in their finery with lipstick.

Marian Johnson [01:37:29] And we had this beautiful evening with music and roses, and the men cooked us food they served, and it was so delightful, and the women loved it so much. And just the comments of some of the women, particularly the older sisters, they would say, I've never done anything like this. That was just for us. That was just for us.

Marian Johnson [01:37:50] That was not A service oriented thing that was not a give kind of a thing. It was just people came and they served us and told us that we were wonderful and they were absolutely overwhelmed by this simple, simple act. It was beautiful. I'll never forget it.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:09] It's like they got to receive.

Marian Johnson [01:38:11] Yeah, yeah, they got to receive. It was amazing.

Alisa Jones [01:38:17] I have one. I had my third baby when I was a Relief Society president and we had been focusing a lot on independence and self reliance and we'd had a lot of babies born and a lot of deaths. And so we had talked a lot in a Relief Society about our presidency, about how many meals to take into people, like putting a limit on that. And anyway, we were in the middle of all of that. And so I had said, I don't want any meals when I have my baby. It was a C section, so I was going to be out for a while.

Alisa Jones [01:38:49] I've done some freezer stuff and my husband's capable and we have family around. So I'd had my baby and they announced it on Sunday and somebody in the congregation said, are we doing meals for Alisa? And my counselor said, no, she's requested no meals.

Alisa Jones [01:39:06] And one of the women said, oh, we're not doing that. She does so much for us. And anyway, so she took a piece of paper out and passed it around. So when I got out of the hospital, my counselor called me and said, I'm sorry, but this took on a life of its own. And you're getting meals. 12 nights of meals.

Alisa Jones [01:39:25] And they were humble. Some of them were very humble. Some of them were people who I know did not have a lot of. And so every night between five and six, two sisters would come to my door and bring a meal. And my two little kids started looking forward to that. And I didn't need the food, but just that being able to receive, receiving has always been hard for me in terms of service.

Alisa Jones [01:39:53] I didn't know that I needed it. And they. It just was very uplifting. So normally, you know, you're the one, as a Relief Society president, giving. So it took me a lot to accept it. And after the 12 nights were over, my kids said, when is the food coming? They were. They thought it was just going to be a normal thing that two nice sisters show up every, every night. But I treasure that. I think about it often, how beautiful that was and how fulfilling it was.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:22] Yes, I have a story.

Shelley Densley [01:40:26] When I was Larval Society president about a year, my oldest son was getting married in the San Diego Temple. And about a week before the catering fell through, and maybe it was just a couple days before. And I dislike parties. I am not a party person. And that was, like, the worst nightmare for me, to think that that was all falling apart. And my Relief Society presidency did it all. They catered the whole thing. They made it all, they served it all, and they made it beautiful, and I couldn't have done it without them. I absolutely loved my presidency. I felt like they were really my friends, and we got really, really close, and it was just amazing that they did that for me because I was at such a loss as to what to do.

Ricky Hein [01:41:17] Women serving women is the best part. Was the best part. My heart is pounding because I feel and felt so much love for the women in the branch. And I think my circumstances were special because in Hispanic cultures, particularly, there is so much love and so little judgment.

Ricky Hein [01:42:01] And I felt so welcomed and absolutely never judged. And that was the overall feeling of the branch in general. And so just connecting with women from all walks of life, like, you could be missing all your teeth and addicted to drugs, and you would be greeted with the biggest hug and smile and love. And it's just the love of women. The love of women is the best part. You just feel so much love.

Ricky Hein [01:42:47] And I think that's not always the case. Like, there could be a lot of petty things that go on in Relief Society or within friendships or whatever. So I feel just particularly lucky in my circumstance. But, yeah, just the moments of talking or visiting or bringing meals and just feeling so overwhelmed with love, that was the greatest gift.

Shelley Densley [01:43:21] I was so supported. I couldn't have done anything without all those beautiful women sitting there in Relief Society. They supported me. The reason I did a great job was because of them. And so coming on this podcast, I mean, maybe they can feel a sense of betrayal. When people left the church, and I didn't know why they left or they quit coming, but I felt a sense of betrayal. So if people hear this and see me as a former Relief Society president and feel betrayed, I don't blame them. You know, you do feel, as an active member of the church, you feel a sense of betrayal when people leave the church. I understand that. But I loved the community. I loved them. That's not why I left.

Ricky Hein [01:44:03] Mm.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:04] Yeah.

Shelley Densley [01:44:05] That's not why.

Most Difficult and Painful Experiences

Margi Dehlin [01:44:07] On the flip side, you know, in thinking about it, what are some of the hardest aspects or the painful parts that come to your mind about serving during that time?

Ricky Hein [01:44:24] I'll share a quick story. When we first were in the branch, my husband. I was laying in bed and my husband had come home late after a day of school, law school. He was in the branch presidency for a few years. When we first were in the branch, at the time, I was young women's president. He came home and we did a lot of visits in the branch because it was brand new.

Ricky Hein [01:44:55] We had just formed it. Lot of visits, multiple nights a week. And he had just come home from a visit. So this is not particularly my story, but I could tell this story in different ways from my experience. But anyway, so he came home and, you know, I was asking how it was going, and he said that he had visited this family and as they were leaving, you know, he said, so is there anything we can do for you? You know, you hear that a lot with the missionaries or home teachers. Is there anything we can do?

Ricky Hein [01:45:32] And this family said, we'd love some fruit. And oh, my goodness, I. My heart broke like, you need fruit here? I was so privileged and the basic needs were not being met. Whether it was food, sure, we could fill out food orders, we can get you fruit, we can get you food.

Ricky Hein [01:46:01] But basic, basic needs were not being met. And it was devastating to see lack of education, lots of mental health issues. You know, I mean, I could go on and on, people in jail. I've mentioned it before, but that was. It was devastating and feeling like I had.

Ricky Hein [01:46:28] I didn't know how to help. I, first of all, I didn't know what resources were available to me because of the lack of training. I didn't know if there were mental health resources. I didn't know if their. The emotional reliance, whatever program hadn't come out yet. I don't think I truly did not know what any of my resources were. And so I felt so lost and stuck.

Ricky Hein [01:47:02] I just didn't know what to do, you know, like, I could love them the best I could, but no amount of spiritual. Anything I could provide would make up for the serious lack of basic human needs.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:17] That's right. Yeah.

Alisa Jones [01:47:20] I agree that if you think about all of the issues that you're faced with, it can be very overwhelming. Everything from abuse and poverty and mental. Mental health issues. I remember at one point feeling like I wanted to hide after sacrament meeting because I knew I was going to have a lot of people. People coming up. So I. There were a couple of weeks I left early because I just didn't have it in me to have a lot of conversations about needs. And I had already. I already had a lot of needs at home with my young family. And so I think overwhelm was probably the hardest part for me in just how much there was.

Alisa Jones [01:47:59] And I understand it, and I understood it then to a certain degree. But secondary trauma, you know, when you are sitting across from people who are traumatized and you don't have the skills as a giver, you experience some of that trauma rubs off on you. And so I was a little bit aware of it then. I've become a lot more aware of it now. So I think that would be a huge thing to train people on is how to alleviate that or relieve yourself of that.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:26] Such a good point.

Alisa Jones [01:48:27] The other thing for me was learning how to share with my counselor. So that it went. Wasn't all on me. I think as a Relief Society president, I felt like, okay, it's all on me. And I did it all on my own for a while until I couldn't anymore. But I called three very capable people who could help me, and I started relying on them more.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:42] Yeah.

Marian Johnson [01:48:46] Yeah. Talking about the difficult moments, I think that what I struggled with the most is being put into situations where the expectations were for me to provide things I was not qualified to provide, to provide, you know, grief counseling.

Marian Johnson [01:49:10] One of the first assignments I had was to go visit a sister whose husband or whose son. Young son, I think he was maybe 19, 20, was killed in a horrific plane crash. And I go to her living room, and I sit with her, and she's crying, and I don't know what to say.

Marian Johnson [01:49:32] I'm blank. I do not know what to say. I don't know how to support this woman at all. I think I eventually just asked her to tell me about your son, talk about him, which I hope was therapeutic for her, But I was not qualified to be there.

Marian Johnson [01:49:50] And I think I just went home feeling really, really bad, feeling that I had blown it because I simply wasn't qualified. I wasn't trained. And then I also. On the flip side, later on, after I'd been doing this for a year or two, then I started thinking, well, okay, maybe I know what I'm doing now. I'm a counselor. I can help people.

Marian Johnson [01:50:12] And I'll regret this for the rest of my life, but I went to a home to visit this young mom, married, two little bitty kids, and she was so torn. She wanted to quit her job so bad and be home with her babies full time, because that's what we're definitely counseled to do, is be home with those babies full time. But she had a job, and she just said, I just. I just want to quit. I just want to Quit so bad. And I found myself saying, if you are faithful enough, you can quit your job and you can make your ends meet.

Marian Johnson [01:50:49] And it makes me sick to think that I told her that I had no authority to say anything of this kind. And that's bothered me ever since. I mean, this has been 25 years, and that still bothers me that I would have made such a grand claim that I had no right to make. So that was tough. Saying things I shouldn't have said, I had no right to say. I wasn't qualified to say it.

Shelley Densley [01:51:23] I'm trying to think of an instance. I would just say. The hardest thing for me, and that hurt me the most, was just sitting in those meetings and hearing people being talked about. And it wasn't devastating to other people because I remember a new primary president came in and she's like, this is so wonderful. You all talk about other people.

John Dehlin [01:51:41] And can y' all give examples of kind of. If there's a gossip dynamic to these meetings and what gets shared, how privacy is dealt with or not dealt with, confidentiality. If any of you have insight into

Shelley Densley [01:51:54] that, Just talking about people, can you give examples? Let's see, without naming names, obviously, so and so, talking about what their home looks like, you know, we had.

John Dehlin [01:52:04] So you're in a meeting with who. Who's in the meeting.

Shelley Densley [01:52:06] Services would be. I can't remember if it would be with the ward councilor or with just the welfare meeting. But talking about people, how they're living, what their home looks like, what their kids are up to. It's kind of like a return and report. Like, you go around the room and whatever, you know about that family, they're talked about. You know, my son made out with some girl at school. And then someone told, you know, the counselor who came and told me, like, oh, my gosh, you know, like everyone is watching us and returning and reporting about what is happening in our homes.

Shelley Densley [01:52:39] So that was just really upsetting to me as just sitting there and listening. They're talking about, like, they should be budgeting, you know, they need to get with a so and so person and work on their finances. Or, you know, there's drugs in the home, you know, or there are hoarders or their children are unclean and what should we do about that? Or they smell or, you know, I mean, all those things are being talked about. That was just upsetting to me. I'm sure they were doing it with love, but that was upsetting to me because I'm like, oh, my gosh. They sat around and talked about me as when I was 17 and I came to this ward and I was all alone.

Shelley Densley [01:53:13] You know, they talked about me. I'm sure they talked about me. I'm sure they've talked about my kids, you know, and me. And I'm the LEAF study president. But I'm sure they're talking about my children behind my back, you know, for certain reasons. So I'm sure.

Ricky Hein [01:53:28] So I have similar experience. Had a similar experience. A little bit different, though. I think in our ward councils, it was more like who needs what and how can we help them. I totally understand what you're saying, though, because it feels icky and. Or it can feel that way, you know, for me, it felt more like we're in charge of the spiritual and temporal welfare of these humans. And so we need to kind of figure out what the problems are and how we can fix it and what. We put programs in place or whatever to try and help fix that.

Shelley Densley [01:54:14] That.

Ricky Hein [01:54:15] I've never really experienced that, though. That's really interesting that you say that.

Shelley Densley [01:54:20] Well, it's always. It's always in the name of Christ and being Christ like and helping. But when it gets right down to it, it's just a really bad feeling for me. It was just very bad.

Privacy Concerns in Ward Council Meetings

John Dehlin [01:54:32] I've heard this a lot of people talking about the gossip of ward council meetings, who's active, who's lost their faith, so and so. I'm so sad that some sister so and so has to deal with the husband who's left or this family's left the church. How do we help this family? Because now they've all left the church. You're nodding your head yes.

Alisa Jones [01:54:51] So I'm sure that we have been the subject of this in our ward because, you know, my husband is no longer attending, and I'm probably an interesting, complicated person for my ward in some ways, those who know about my situation. So I'm certain that we. We've been the subject, especially as my children have grown up, but I didn't necessarily experience it as negative, but I didn't like participating in it. It didn't feel right to me. And so information I had, I would just talk to my bishop afterward. He and I collaborated a lot more about that because it did feel. Why did the primary president need to know and the young women president need to know about the state of someone's house?

Margi Dehlin [01:55:30] So it was like a public airing in this meeting with.

Alisa Jones [01:55:34] And I do feel like the intention was very out of love, but it didn't feel like everybody needed to know that.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:41] Got it.

Marian Johnson [01:55:44] Yeah. Some very similar experience, talking about, you know, who's not coming, how can we get them back? And I mean, it would be details as to, you know, so is somebody filing for divorce? You know, oh, somebody's. Somebody's parent died, and they've gone off the deep end. And you have a lot of voices chipping in. Oh, well, I didn't hear that. Oh, did you hear.

Shelley Densley [01:56:07] Oh, yeah.

Marian Johnson [01:56:07] Oh, oh. And then I heard that, you know, and then you throw something else into the pile. And I know that the idea is, how can we help these people and bring them back because they'll be happier if they come back. What I find, I found it very uncomfortable being in that because it. It felt like we're finding things to pick and we're looking for very private things and we're sharing them here, and I feel uncomfortable with that. And there was always an element, and it was not something I put my finger on until I stopped attending, but I felt like there was an element, as we're talking about these people who aren't coming, that they are somehow less than now.

Alisa Jones [01:56:50] Yeah. Yes.

Marian Johnson [01:56:51] That they are some somehow less than human. Even in a very slight, benevolent way, it would come out that there is something less than. There is something wrong. We must fix it. We must bring them back. And, yes, I know for a fact that since I have not attended since the pandemic, when everybody went back to physical church, I know for a fact my husband and I are very interesting, entertaining subjects at those meetings. That's how it is.

Ricky Hein [01:57:28] This makes me upset

Marian Johnson [01:57:32] because

Ricky Hein [01:57:35] we were in a place of being able to make a difference, and it. I don't know. Does it make you guys feel upset? Like, I feel like I felt like I was maybe better in a way, better spiritually, better prepared, better, you know, more organized or whatever, because I have this calling, but, oh, my gosh, this is just now occurring to me. Like, of course we look down on them. Why else would we be talking about them? Right. And because it's not like y' all

John Dehlin [01:58:12] didn't have stuff in your own lives.

Ricky Hein [01:58:13] Right, Right, Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:58:15] Were you talking about that?

Ricky Hein [01:58:16] What is wrong with that?

Alisa Jones [01:58:17] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:18] Yeah.

Ricky Hein [01:58:18] Oh, it's so not okay. I think it maybe could be okay in a different way. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:28] Yeah. Do you think part of the problem with it is inherent to kind of the doctrine and structure of Mormonism being so much about this idea that you can control your experience? Like, if you're having sadness in your life or if you're struggling there's this inference of it's on you. Like, there's a way to get through this life where you're protected and people you love are protected. And so in those meetings, when there's like this scarcity all the time, because of course, we're suffering because we're alive, but we're now, you know, interpreting it as our personal failing, that how can you not, in those meetings, have a sense of, like, well, how hard for them, and you know, that it's on some level their fault.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:21] Like, they could be doing more. They could be. Because that is, at least for me, in growing up in Mormonism, that was the inference. And it came out in things like, well, are you praying? Are you doing this? Are you doing that? Are you? Because if you were like, start there and you, of course, can't ever do all the things. So it always leaves you vulnerable to this life and to suffering. But those questions lead you to believe, like, you could be perfect, you could escape suffering. Does that make sense?

Ricky Hein [01:59:51] Just follow the program.

Marian Johnson [01:59:54] Yes, absolutely. If you do the things, if you check the things on the box, if you read your scriptures, if you pray, if you do the right things, there is an inference that you will escape life's greatest trials, that you'll have trials. We're here to have trials. That is acknowledged. But if you are a little more righteous, they will pass faster, be less. Something like that. You'll be spared the idea of being spared. And so the result of that is that when life naturally does go to crap, which it will, there is an internalized idea that I must have done something wrong and. Or I simply am not worthy of these blessings that I keep hearing so much about that people stand up in sacrament meeting and they'll say, well, you know, I wrote out my tithing check for my last $100, and the very next day there was a basket of food on my porch.

Marian Johnson [02:00:56] Well, there were times I wrote out my last couple dollars for tithing and I fed my kids powdered milk. And I'm thinking, am I doing this wrong? Am I not worthy? So, yeah, there's that accidental consequence of if you do all the right things, you'll be happy. If you don't do all the right things, that's why your life's a mess, right?

Margi Dehlin [02:01:21] So in those meetings, that's where maybe a little bit of the discomfort comes is because you're inferring with all those people, like, oh, they're just sort of not. It's not. And when we're talking about structural, you know, opportunities or resources or real systemic problems, particularly with you, Ricky, where you served. And the answer is prayer. Or it's just like it makes no sense covering it.

Ricky Hein [02:01:47] Yeah. And I remember I have sadly said these words about people like, oh, they just don't get it. They just don't fully get it. Like, they don't get the gospel, what it's about. And so that's why this is happening.

Shelley Densley [02:02:03] Yeah, that's what we kind of believe, though, right? It's a.

Ricky Hein [02:02:05] Right.

Shelley Densley [02:02:06] Yeah. I remember someone did come and tell my husband that we were a topic of a meeting, and this is at the stake level, you know, because my younger sons didn't want to go. And they. I don't even know if we ever ordained them. And I don't think they were. They never passed the sacrament, they never blessed the sacrament. And this is when I was Relief Society president still, and they were talking about us and how we must not be doing everything. We just must not. And someone stood up for us and said, yeah, the Densley are doing everything. You know, they are doing everything right.

Shelley Densley [02:02:37] You know, people have their free agency. And one of the first things we'd always get asked, you know, I remember sitting down with the stake president, he's like, well, are you reading your scriptures? Are you having family home evening? Are you having family prayer? All those things? And we're like, yeah. And he was, like, so relieved. That was like his only idea to give us, you know, to help our kids come to church because they didn't want to come. And what I really noticed, and this is not just within the church, this is within. I think most people do this. They want to blame the parents.

Shelley Densley [02:03:08] They want to blame them. Because if you blame the parents or you, then you're not going to do that. Like, I'm doing a bad job of being a parent, and you're not going to do that. So your kid's going to be fine. Your kid's going to live the gospel. You know, I let my kids skateboard on Sunday, so obviously I'm doing it wrong, you know, so that's how they try to protect themselves from their children breaking rules and not wanting to follow the covenant path. So you blame the parents.

Spiritual Discernment and Faith Impact

Margi Dehlin [02:03:38] I'm curious about your experience of, let's just say, extra discernment or, you know, feeling added closeness to the spirit, maybe the mantle of the calling sometimes.

John Dehlin [02:03:55] Yeah, maybe explain to our never Mormons what, what this teaching about the spirit of discernment is. And it usually is applied to, like, male bishops or male leaders.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:07] Yeah. Do you feel like it applied? Did you feel like it applied to the calling? And how would you describe this idea of discernment in spirit for a calling?

Alisa Jones [02:04:20] For me, it's something I've always struggled with spiritually. Is this just a good thought, or is this the spirit telling me to do it? And, you know, there's that saying, never suppress a kind thought because that might be the spirit. Well, that can cause a lot of anxiety. If I get a lot of good thoughts, then that means I have got to go do a lot of good things. And so I've always had that confusion in my mind. Is this just a good thought that it's something I should do? Is it my own personal brain and energy coming up with it, or is it the spirit?

Alisa Jones [02:04:52] So I don't even have an answer to that. I think I felt closer to the people, and I think I felt a little bit on a higher spiritual plane, but it's because that's where I was putting my energy. I was putting my energy and my thoughts and my time and my focus on that. And so I did feel, I think, more spiritual and more connected to people in that way. And so I did listen more to those thoughts that I had.

Alisa Jones [02:05:19] I haven't dissected what that really is for me now in terms of discernment, knowing if one thing is right over another. I don't know. I don't know that I felt more discerning. I know I just felt closer to myself. And I feel like I could listen to myself a little bit more during that time. I felt like I needed to listen to myself a little bit more during that time, but I haven't figured it all out yet, even all these years later, where that came from.

Shelley Densley [02:05:46] Yeah, I feel like once I left the church, I became more spiritual because I was not confining myself to the little Mormon box. So I actually felt much more connected to the earth, to plants, to people, to everything. So I felt like I had a lot more love and connection.

Shelley Densley [02:06:07] And then I became more introspective. But I believe now that all the things I ever received were just from myself. And I think the reason when I made really good choices, like with visiting, teaching, it's just because I've been in that ward for decades and we all talked about it, and I knew people and I knew what would be a good fit for them, you know, and that's. That's. I had. I saw that was one thing that was hard for me, sitting in those meetings, like, hey, they're not like Especially inspired. They're just like me, and they have biases just like me. I actually stepped away from some things as a president and let my counselors decide because I knew I specifically struggled with that Sister, and I knew that I couldn't make a good choice, so I let them make it. So.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:53] Yeah, how would you. Oh, sorry.

Shelley Densley [02:06:56] Go ahead.

Marian Johnson [02:06:57] Just back to that discernment thing. The only time I felt like, oh, the spirit is directing me to say this was when I told that sister she could quit her job and everything would be. And I. You know, I realize now that. That that was my bias.

Marian Johnson [02:07:11] That was my bias that I was projecting onto her, which wasn't fair of me. But I have. You know, in the church, we're always talking about feeling the spirit, feeling, spilling, being prompted by the spirit, or when you feel, you know, a beautiful. Hear a hymn or something like that, you. You feel the spirit.

Marian Johnson [02:07:32] And, you know, since I have come to realize that my soul, my spirit, my light, my energy, whatever it is that we call this will give us signals when something is beautiful and when it is true or right or correct, and. And I. And I gotta tell you, since I have not been attending and decided that I would not go back, it's. It's very much like having taken off a set of sunglasses that are blue and they're Mormon blue, and I've set down the blue sunglasses, and I have looked at humanity in a far more broad sense than I ever did before. And all of a sudden, like, you're talking, Shelley.

Marian Johnson [02:08:17] Like, my. My heart just burst with compassion for every human soul, for every person of color who's gotten a raw deal in the church for the LGBT community, who continue to get a raw deal in the church for women who have been taught their whole lives. You have one job.

Marian Johnson [02:08:41] One job. And, yeah, my heart just burst with just a compassion for all people. And I feel things more intensely and more in a more broad sense, since I have not been attending church than I ever did. It has expanded my vision tremendously.

Ricky Hein [02:09:08] Yeah, I love all these answers so much because they're like, all of my answers, too. I feel like when you're in it, you're focused so much. It's like, keep a prayer in your heart, you know, keep an eye single to the glory of God, all of these things. And as I was Relief Society president or whatever calling I had, I was so focused and in tune with what I was doing that I think just naturally my brain and my emotions and my mind would go to that, and I think that's the spirit of discernment. You know, it's what naturally would happen if you're so intensely focused on something.

Ricky Hein [02:09:55] And I also think that there is just a connection, a connection of love between people. And you can feel that and kind of make choices based on how you feel. And that can be a spirit of discernment. But again, like Marian said, I feel the same way. Where my focus was very narrow, it was within the church, within the plan, within the program.

Ricky Hein [02:10:29] And now that focus can be so much bigger, it's almost overwhelming. Now I have to kind of find myself what I value, what I believe in and focus there and not necessarily within rules and boundaries. So I don't know. I don't really have a great answer. I guess it's just kind of figuring out how your mind and body works.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:01] Did any of you find that becoming Relief Society president affected your faith, particularly in the LDS faith? And if so, how?

Shelley Densley [02:11:17] For better or for worse, Mine happened immediately. I was just like, oh my gosh, why does God want me to have this calling? This is hurting my testimony. And I said it every day and I apologize to God every day. And I just wanted to run away.

Shelley Densley [02:11:33] I just wanted to leave. I thought, you know, we're going to leave, we're going to move, we're going to sit in the back of the chapel, we're not going to dress right and no one's going to bother us. And I did not know what all that meant, but I said it the whole four years. And I remember thinking, oh my gosh, they can't release me yet. They can't release me until I get better, until I get over this. And I never got over it. I wanted to, I tried to, but the glasses had come off and I had changed somehow along the way, I had just changed, just sitting in those meetings and I couldn't believe the other people.

Shelley Densley [02:12:05] That didn't happen to them. I remember I came home, I'd probably been the Weep Society president six months, and my husband's been in back to back bishoprics and the High Council and everything. And I thought, you know, I'm going to talk to him about this, you know, and I'll tell him how I feel and he's going to give me a really good pep talk and I'm going to be fine. So I remember going to the bedroom and I. I told him how I felt about the meetings and how they talk about everybody and how I don't feel that people have discernment. And I realized that God wasn't actually running the church, that people were running it, at least at the ward level and the stake level.

Shelley Densley [02:12:35] I knew people had biases. And I was like, oh, my gosh, how can this be? And my husband just looked at me and goes, yeah, Shelley, that's how it really is. And I was like, oh, my gosh, why didn't you tell me? He's like, I didn't want to hurt your testimony. So he'd been that way for decades, but we still thought the church was true. It was the people's problem. It was our problem. But we would have just hung in there forever, you know, we would have.

Ricky Hein [02:13:01] But I feel the same way. I didn't particularly have, like, an issue when I was Relief Society president. I feel like my entire life, I kind of had things that I put on my shelf, Things that didn't feel right, I didn't agree with. But the church was true. And so you keep at it, right? And so just over time, it builds and builds and builds. And for me, this didn't happen until two years ago, almost two years ago, where it came crashing down. But it's like all those little moments and experiences that I had that didn't sit right, that didn't feel good, that felt wrong or made me confused or like, what? Like, this is how the church is run. It just builds and builds until one day it's like, can't do that anymore.

Marian Johnson [02:13:53] For me, being released, society president at that young age with all the kids and all that kind of thing, by the. By the time I was at the end of that, I think that the negative effect that had on me, it's not what you might expect. The negative effect that it had on me is that I think it stroked my ego, and I think it made me feel like I was righteous,

Ricky Hein [02:14:16] that

Marian Johnson [02:14:18] somehow I had done this thing that not very many women get to do, a leadership role at a young age. And, yeah, I think it was, to be honest, I think it was a pat on the back that. It's embarrassing now to even think that.

Shelley Densley [02:14:43] I love that honesty. That's awesome.

Alisa Jones [02:14:47] I think seeing how the sausage is made a little bit, how decisions are made, how people are called, and then participating in that myself, that I would pray about names, I would pray about callings, but ultimately, I was using my good decision making. I was using the information I had, and maybe there was some spirituality involved in that. So it did, after the fact, cause me to look at leadership differently and how decisions are made differently, that it really is just people doing the best that they can, making the best decisions that they can at the time. And so seeing the wizard of Oz a little bit happened, I think, for me as well, my faith.

Alisa Jones [02:15:27] I had just been dealing with the issues. My shelf had been getting heavier and heavier, so some of it was just life, you know, the compilation of all of that. And then Prop 8 happened right at the end, and that was clearly a huge issue.

Alisa Jones [02:15:42] In fact, when they read the Proposition 8 letter, I was the Stake Relief Society president, and I knew it was coming because I'd been following it online, and we were sitting in the middle of the chapel, and I just openly started to cry when they read the letter.

Alisa Jones [02:15:58] And so at that point, I could not hide anymore what was happening for me and people around. And I didn't even hide that it was upsetting. And so I think moving was a good start for me because I think I was really tired, too. I've seen this a lot with bishops and people in high level callings where you just get really tired after.

Alisa Jones [02:16:21] And so taking a little bit of a break. I know when we. When we moved, I wanted to reinvent myself, and I was just gonna be the quiet person who had a quiet calling, and nobody would know me. And then somebody came up week two of church and said, somebody else was in your. I know one of my best friends was in your stake, and I'm like, oh, my cover has been blown. But I did. I did reinvent it at that point, that I wanted to have a different relationship with the church because of the faith issues I'd experienced, but also just for the level at which I was functioning wasn't sustainable for me.

Ricky Hein [02:16:52] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:53] Yep. So I'm curious now about how, if you connect to the idea of regret, first off, but if there's anything that stands out, in particular during your time as Relief Society president that you might say you regret,

Difficult Situations Faced While Serving

Ricky Hein [02:17:22] I'll go first. When I was Relief Society president, a woman tried to commit suicide. Someone I was actually fairly close with. I was her visiting teacher at the time. I was her visiting teacher, and I would go over with my little son and he would play with her little toys while I visited with her. And she was wonderful. Is wonderful.

Ricky Hein [02:17:52] And. I did not know what to do. And thankfully, you know, the ward kind of. Or the branch kind of rallied. Rallied. Yeah. And a week later, one of my previous young women also tried to commit suicide in the exact same way. So it was like. It, like, triggered something in her, and it was crazy. It was so devastating. And like, what do you do? I had never experienced something like this. And so I don't know if regret is the right word because I had no experience with it before, but I guess I regret showing up more. Like, I wish, even now.

Ricky Hein [02:18:47] Even now, I wish I could have been more and done more in general. Not just with this particular instance, but. And that's a crazy thing to say because I was doing so much, but I wished I could do more.

Alisa Jones [02:19:09] I try not to live with regret because even my membership in the church and raising my children in the church, I feel like there's been some good that's come out of that. And if I had to do it all over again, would I do it differently? I don't know. I don't know that I would. I'm sure I would do some things differently. So I try not to live there, but I know there were mistakes I made. I know people looked at me as an authority, and I don't even know all the mistakes I made. I got up once in Relief Society and just apologized for my mistakes because I felt like I was always making mistakes and I didn't want to let anyone down. And so I think being easier on myself, relying on more people, really allowing more people to help, I would have done that. That was a regret.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:02] Yeah.

Marian Johnson [02:20:03] Yeah. Other than telling that sweet thing that she should quit her job if she was faithful enough, other than that, I really don't have any regrets. I enjoyed working with the sisters that I called to work with me. I enjoyed visiting and getting to know people. I mean, if I could change anything now, it would maybe be that I just get to know them better, just to have been a better friend. But, you know, at that stage in my life, I didn't have the tools to be a better friend. So I feel like I just. I kind of gave it my all. I did the best I could.

Shelley Densley [02:20:48] I don't really have any regrets either, of being relief slightly present. I have a lot of regrets of being a Mormon mom, but not being a Mormon Relief Society president.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:57] Yeah. So what wisdom would you share to someone, let's say, who's currently serving as a Relief Society president or is being called? Are there things that you would share to have, maybe her consider to piggyback

Ricky Hein [02:21:21] on Alisa, Ask for help, delegate, ask all the questions, find some counselors that you love so much and know that they're going to try their best as well, and also don't accept the calling.

Alisa Jones [02:21:43] Yeah.

Shelley Densley [02:21:43] I agree with Ricky about just how the best counselors and secretary treat them like your very best friends, because they are your best friends. All Four of them, we included our secretary. And all four of us went and visited members every single month together. So we got to be really close. And I would. That's what I would do. Just make everybody on your team and share things with them. Train everybody. Everybody could do food orders. Everyone could go to meetings. It wasn't just me. So,

Marian Johnson [02:22:16] yeah, totally agree with what you said. Lean on those counselors. Delegate, delegate, delegate. And make sure that your voice is heard in those ward council meetings and with the bishop and so forth. And do not take no for an answer. If they're wrong. If they're wrong, and you know in your heart that something needs to happen by church teachings, you, by right, have right to receive that revelation in your stewardship, and you insist, and the bishop

Shelley Densley [02:22:48] has to support you. I had the most supportive bishop. He didn't do well with my husband. My husband was a fan of his until a certain point, but he made up for it by being an awesome bishop over me. And if my aunt. I remember my aunt was a bishop, was a Relief Society president, and she wasn't allowed to even pick her counselors. She wasn't allowed to do a food order by herself. She was watched over every second. And if someone did that to me, I would say. I would say, you know, I'm giving this calling right back to you. I would. I would walk away. I'm not gonna let someone do that to me.

Alisa Jones [02:23:22] I would say, too, to make sure you have support, whether that's getting a coach, having somebody to rely on, because the burden can. It can do a lot to you. And I think also, especially if you're a woman who hasn't had a lot of experience with working in a professional setting, or you don't feel like you know how to communicate, working on, like, the book Crucial Conversations, something where you can learn how to say it. I. I've worked with a lot of women who. They don't know how to be in those councils, and so maybe some skills on how to be in those councils can help you feel like you can assert your voice.

Alisa Jones [02:23:57] You might have a lot of thoughts and a lot of feelings, but if you don't know how to have it come out. So I think building those skills, having some support around you and that. Yeah. Putting up boundaries and realizing it's not all on you. You feel this huge burden, but realizing you're just one piece and you can't change everything all at once. Yeah.

Marian Johnson [02:24:16] Yeah, I totally agree with that. To realize that it's not all on you. The culture kind of Raises us to

Margi Dehlin [02:24:23] be, you know, the.

Marian Johnson [02:24:24] We're the mama and we have our thing and we are over this thing and we are responsible for this thing. And we tend to do that with these church callings where it's all on me. It's all on me and kind of a perfectionist nature that we tend to have. And so, yeah, I would definitely say do not think that you are the end all. Be all in this job.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:46] Yeah, yeah. What about wisdom? Like, what wisdom would you share, maybe with currently serving bishops or stake presidents? Is there anything that comes to mind there?

Advice for Bishops and Future Leaders

Marian Johnson [02:25:02] I would definitely say bishops, stake presidents. Look at your Relief Society presidents as your allies. And if you give her the dignity and voice that her service and her knowledge and her soul give to her, she can be of such benefit and such assistance to you in your job. But if you for one minute want to pull a priesthood arrogance thing on her, you're done, because she will sense that and she will not trust you.

Alisa Jones [02:25:40] Anything else, I would agree. I think, including when I called my counselors, I intentionally looked for people who were different than me, but who I could still work with. And so I think for bishops to call people who might challenge you, I think the best decisions come when you have all the voices at the table. And so somebody who is going to speak up, somebody who is not going to be afraid of bringing ideas to the table and then to be willing to listen. I was very fortunate, my bishop. I felt like we were in alliance, and I felt like we were a team.

Alisa Jones [02:26:14] And now I recognize that was as much to his benefit as it was to mine, because to run a whole ward by yourself is. I listened to the bishop's panel as well, and Very overwhelming. And so for them as well, to surround yourself with people that you can trust and that you can rely on and that you can delegate to.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:31] Yes.

Marian Johnson [02:26:32] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:33] Beautiful.

Ricky Hein [02:26:36] And I would say don't use the like, I'm more important card, like my calling's more important than yours. You know, Like, I never personally experienced that in my branch where, like, Alisa said she couldn't have the fun music at camp. Like, I'd never had that kind of an experience, but how humiliating and degrading. Just because you have a higher calling, that means your say goes. Just feels so icky.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:18] Yeah. Do you think it's a good time? Do you want to shift to rapid fire? How are we feeling, everyone? We so appreciate you.

Marian Johnson [02:27:28] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:27:28] I do have some rapid fire questions. Do you have some?

Margi Dehlin [02:27:31] Margi, do you feel up for it? How do we feel? About rapid fire, y'.

Ricky Hein [02:27:34] All.

Marian Johnson [02:27:35] Great.

Ricky Hein [02:27:35] Sure.

Marian Johnson [02:27:36] Let's do it.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:37] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:27:38] So, yeah, I did this with the Bishops, and I'm loving this discussion. I'm really, really grateful for it. I'll just ask a few kind of questions that, you know, you can just kind of give free form association what comes to your mind. And I'll just say, okay, you start, and then we'll. We'll go from there. Is that okay? Okay. So to begin with, there's a way to look at Relief Study President especially because Relief Society Sunday School lessons, whatever they're called. What are they called? The lessons. The Relief Study lessons, you could frame those as you're leading the indoctrination of the women for the church leadership. Right?

Ricky Hein [02:28:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:25] So I'm curious how you would characterize. What were the messages? Were you able to pick the messages, or were you being told what messages to deliver to the women? And how would you characterize what the messages were that the Brethren wanted you to indoctrinate the women towards? Does that make sense? Okay, Marian, you're nodding, so I'm gonna

Marian Johnson [02:28:46] have you go first. Yeah. The message. My message to women is essentially, accept what you are given the teachings, take these teachings, implement them into your life. You will be a better mother, a better wife. And since those are your highest callings and best callings, that is a continual message. Motherhood continuously. And I just took the liberty of talking about motherhood or whatever you do, or motherhood or your career or this kind of thing, and I tried to make it multifaceted, but the message is pretty clear. It's pretty much, stay in your lane and be quiet.

John Dehlin [02:29:30] Okay.

Marian Johnson [02:29:30] It just is.

John Dehlin [02:29:31] That's the general message of the male church leadership to the women of the church?

Marian Johnson [02:29:35] In my opinion, yes.

John Dehlin [02:29:36] Stay in your lane and be quiet. That's really harsh. I'm not questioning you. I'm just. Wow. I'm kind of shocked by that. What would you say, Shelley?

Shelley Densley [02:29:47] I would say that's true. And since we are taught that from such a young age, once we get married, we kind of lose ourselves, we lose who we are. And you have children pretty quick, and you give up all your life goals for your husband's and your children's, and you forget that you're a person, too. I remember reading a quote, byron, Katie, and it said, you are the one you've been waiting for. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, that just hit me right in the gut. I was like, I lost myself. I haven't been myself for decades. I've Only given myself away. That's all I did for decades, was give myself away. And my husband didn't notice. They don't notice because that's how the patriarchy runs. They don't realize it either.

Marian Johnson [02:30:37] Thank you.

Shelley Densley [02:30:38] Yeah.

Alisa Jones [02:30:39] In terms of the lessons they were given by the general church. So we had three weeks where this was back when I was in three weeks that were assigned lessons like teaching of the prophets, whatever. And then the fourth one was usually a general conference talk, and sometimes the stake assigned that. And sometimes we got to pick. I felt like the control I had over the kinds of conversations we had was more about the teachers that we called. Were they people who would engage in discussion? Were they people who would just follow the manual? And so I really loved and encouraged our teachers to have a lot of conversation. But it did tend to reinforce gender roles, I would say, and the focus was a lot on home and family.

Ricky Hein [02:31:28] Agreed. I don't really have anything to add. Well, I guess the one thing I would add is that it is stay in your lane. I didn't necessarily feel the be quiet of that as much in my experience, but it is definitely stay in your lane.

John Dehlin [02:31:45] Okay. Ouch. Okay. Describe the role of a woman in the church. How would you just. It had to be on a billboard, you know, what was the message you got about what a woman's role is in Mormonism, Ricky?

Ricky Hein [02:32:01] You start to be a mom, to have babies for eternity.

John Dehlin [02:32:11] Okay. What did he say?

Alisa Jones [02:32:14] I grew up in a family that was pretty open, and my mom worked. And so I got the message at church, and then I got the message at home. My family was pretty progressive. And so we had a lot of conversations about what we learned at church versus the reality of life.

Alisa Jones [02:32:34] And so I think that was maybe the beginnings of having to have a lot of nuance, is because having a mom and aunts and all these people that surrounded me who were working mothers made that complicated. That made that messaging complicated. So the role of women in the church, I think if we go back to what we covenanted in the temple, you know, and what Eve was, she was a helpmate. I think there's still some of that where you are ancillary to or next to or below the man. I think structurally, you can't argue that that's the truth, But I do see some changes in the wider culture, because just the reality is we have to have more egalitarian families now.

Alisa Jones [02:33:21] Women are working. Just the reality of that. But what I see is the rub between what we're still learning at Church and the reality that people are experiencing.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:30] Yeah.

Alisa Jones [02:33:30] They don't always align.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:33] Mm. Yeah.

Marian Johnson [02:33:37] Having been active for, you know, the last 40 years as an adult, the messages now, obviously, have evolved. And it's different because there's a need for that. There's the crying out for that. But what I took in as a teenager, 20s, in those times, in very vulnerable, impressionable times, was that I had a single job to do, and that is to be a mom and to raise them, to be active members. And, you know, all five of my kids left the church, and I was left sitting with that. As you had one job, we gave you one thing to do, and you did not do that. And the internalization of that shame is something. It is beyond description. I cannot even put words to it,

John Dehlin [02:34:38] because you're responsible for something you can't ultimately control.

Marian Johnson [02:34:41] I have no.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:42] Too much.

John Dehlin [02:34:43] And it's your whole definition of what you're about.

Marian Johnson [02:34:46] It is a definition of my very being alive. It is my. It is my justification for being a human. And, you know, I remember I was. As I was deconstructing some of these things, I was standing in my bathroom. I remember this so clearly. And I was thinking about my children who had all left the church.

Marian Johnson [02:35:08] And there's such an incongruence there, because my children are wonderful people. I know that they are intelligent, they're spiritual. They're incredible people. And the church is telling me that they're deceived and fallen and all the things that they tell you. And there's just this internal struggle. And I'm thinking of. And I have a couple of kids who identify as being in the queer community, and some of the things that my kids have told me about the things that the bishops have said to them and the humiliations that they have endured. And I'm thinking, I failed my children. I failed my children. This one thing that was my calling, I have failed my children.

Marian Johnson [02:35:55] And then I just felt this lightning, and something came. It almost like it hit me up the side of the head like a brick. And the thought was not my thought. The thought that came to me was, hey, you did not fail your children. The church failed your children, and it's failed you, and it's failed you.

Shelley Densley [02:36:23] That's beautiful. I would have to say sacrifice. We're taught from a very young age as women to sacrifice. I was raised to be educated and to go to school, and I was raised very, very liberal. And then all just flipped the moment I went to live with my aunt and I became Mormon.

Shelley Densley [02:36:42] I thought you know, I had all the answers. Being Mormon, it gave such an outline of how to be a parent since obviously my upbringing and the way my mom and dad parented me and my being there for us, we were very neglected. And so I thought, wow, this is a great outline of how to be a successful parent, of how to be a successful mom. And I followed it to a T. And it also failed my children and it failed me. And I also remember sitting in sacrament thinking, this is not working. This is not working for me. And I had an epiphany that it's just me and I was just connected straight to God.

Shelley Densley [02:37:19] No buildings, no books, no people, no prophets. I actually lost all my respect for the. When I was. I think I was still Relief Society president at the very end, I was sitting listening to General Conference, but I was on my phone and I found the honor code stories, Here we go stories again, super helpful. I read the honor code stories of all the problems that BYU is having and how students were being abused or traumatized by having to go to the honor code office and being tattled on and all kinds of.

Shelley Densley [02:37:49] So right then I realized the prophet and apostles, they do know all of this that's going on. They are not innocent. I also happened upon LDS stories of abuse and all the abuse that is covered up by the church. And I was abused as a child. And so that just hit me. I'm like, oh my gosh, they know. They know all these terrible things that are happening to us members. They don't care. They're just protecting their good name. And that was kind of like my testimony falling apart right then.

John Dehlin [02:38:21] Very powerful. Thank you for that. I don't know how much this is a rapid fire question, but one of the most common pieces of feedback we'll receive about something like this is it would go along the lines of something to this effect. It's like, look, look, all organizations are imperfect. Trying to help a bunch of women in a ward is really hard. Of course, the men are just, they're volunteers. The bishops and the leaders are all volunteers. They're all doing the best job they can. Like, of course there's going to be problems. You're all kind of being whiny, you know, like just life's imperfect. But overall, isn't it a great opportunity you were given to help other people? And a great organization that blesses a lot of women's lives?

Margi Dehlin [02:39:16] So kind of devil's advocate.

John Dehlin [02:39:17] Yeah, of course, of course I'm giving you a chance to respond to that because I Know, those types of comments are going to come probably from really rude, insensitive men. Like what, a bunch of whiny women complaining about something that's actually a blessing and a really special opportunity. How would you respond to that inevitable troll? Marian wants to.

Marian Johnson [02:39:38] The inevitable troll.

John Dehlin [02:39:39] Yeah.

Marian Johnson [02:39:41] One thought came to mind when you say, how would you explain that? Here's the problem with that. Yes, people are helped, and yes, things can go really well. And I wouldn't want to take the church away from anybody who finds solace and comfort there. My goodness, by me means, by all means. Life's tough.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:00] If.

Marian Johnson [02:40:00] If that brings you joy and help, please do it. But the problem when these messages, These messages keep going over and over and over and over and over is there, you lose a sense of self. And I'll give you an example. I'm. I'm currently coaching a woman who.

Marian Johnson [02:40:18] She's my age. Four kids, no education, no work experience, just like me. Her husband hasn't had a job in years. She's trying to go out and find work. She has nothing on her resume. She can't find anything, Anything. And she doesn't even have the belief within herself right now to feel good about even trying.

Marian Johnson [02:40:41] So my answer to you're just being whiny is, yeah, okay, it was hard and it was inconvenient and it was right. But we've got a generation before and new generations of women coming up who are told not to trust their gut, who are told, do not follow your heart, do not follow your passions. Basically, do not be true to yourself. We are creating young people who are disconnected from themselves, as we were, and it didn't bode well for us. And it certainly will not in a world of new technology and things that the world has now. We need people who are strong, connected to themselves, who can communicate heart, body and brain.

Marian Johnson [02:41:26] And in the church, we do not teach that. We teach the opposite. We teach, do not trust your gut, stop your thoughts, do not go with your heart. And it's just not healthy. It's just not healthy.

Shelley Densley [02:41:43] We don't teach people to love themselves. I was never told to love myself. I was told to love Jesus and to love Heavenly Father and to love

John Dehlin [02:41:51] my parents and follow the prophet.

Shelley Densley [02:41:53] Yeah, love the prophet. Follow him. He knows the way. Right. I was not taught to love myself. So when my.

John Dehlin [02:41:59] Or, to follow your own instincts.

Shelley Densley [02:42:00] Yeah. Or follow my own gut. In fact, when my coach asked me, you know, some deep internal questions about loving myself, I said, sure, I love myself because I'm. I always Want to do everything right. So of course I love myself. But once I asked myself some more questions, I was like, I don't even know what that means. What does it mean to love yourself? And if you don't really love yourself, you can't love other people. You know, no one ever taught me about self love, so that's so important. We're not taught that in church at all.

Alisa Jones [02:42:34] In terms of being whiny women. I think if you go back to our motivation at the beginning, it is to help people who are in the thick of it now, because it's real. And I know that our experiences are likely going to be dismissed by some.

Alisa Jones [02:42:51] Some will look at it and say, that was not my experience. And some will look at it and say our criticisms or our concerns are not valid. And I hold space for them as well, but I would like them to hold space for the fact that we're not speaking falsehoods, we're speaking from what truly happened to us. And so for the women who are serving, I feel passionate about helping them get skills or boundaries, whatever's going to help them survive it and thrive in it. Not just survive, but thrive in it.

Alisa Jones [02:43:22] And also addressing the church issues kind of in general. I have people in my life who I know are going to stay in the church, who love the church. And so if changes can happen in terms of better training for Relief Society presidents, more support, maybe professional training for some of these people, if they're going to be lay leaders, bishops and Relief Society presidents, I think there's some beauty in that. But the church could put resources into bringing in training and maybe mental health support for them as they are serving in these callings. So my motivation is to try and help things get better for the people who are staying in it.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:07] Brilliant.

Ricky Hein [02:44:10] Ditto times three. I mean, yes, exactly. All of that.

John Dehlin [02:44:17] Okay, I don't know if you can even answer this. And this is a couple more rapid fire questions. If, if a woman was to come to you and say, should I be Relief Society president, Would you have an answer for her? And what would that answer be? Just so, in your opinion, should I accept this calling?

Ricky Hein [02:44:41] Is this a strong believing member?

John Dehlin [02:44:44] So what are the criteria you would use to tell someone yes or no?

Margi Dehlin [02:44:47] I guess, yeah, that's good.

Ricky Hein [02:44:50] Actually, I don't know. Even if they're a strong believing member,

John Dehlin [02:44:55] can you recommend the colleague to people?

Ricky Hein [02:44:58] No, no, no, because, well, it takes so much of you. You're giving and giving and giving and it just drains you, drains you. But then at the Same time. It's beautiful and wonderful. So I'm not sure. I'm not really sure. I don't think there are many ways to learn all of the things that I learned in a short amount of time, like outside the church or outside that calling. So in a lot of ways, I grew so much in ways that. That was not possible otherwise. In a good way, looking back. But, yeah, that's not much of an answer. I'm not really sure I go both ways.

John Dehlin [02:45:53] I don't know is a great answer.

Alisa Jones [02:45:54] I would say it depends. It depends on her support system, where she's at in her life, what she wants to gain out of it, what the bishop looks like, what that bishopric looks like, because I did experience a lot of personal growth during that time. So I would have a lot of questions for her. I think I would try and walk her through all of those questions that we've addressed here to see if it really would be a good fit for her.

Marian Johnson [02:46:22] Yeah, 100% agree. It completely depends on the person, what their motivations are. If it's somebody who wants to get involved in a war, to meet people, to be able to reach out and support and help people. Yeah, by all means, go ahead and do that. Just know that here will be your limitations. Here will be. You know, you'll be capped. You'll be capped. Just. Just know that going in. But. But for someone, if. If there's any little churning in their gut that's like, oh, I don't think I want to do this, and I would say, then do not. Don't do it, because it's a big deal. It's a big deal.

Shelley Densley [02:46:57] I know I was meant to be the Relief Society president. That. That was just something I was meant to do because I was meant to leave. That was my path out. So if it's maybe their path out, then maybe it's their time to leave. Maybe some people, they're meant to stay forever, but I was not. It was harmful to my family. It was harmful to me. And we never would have left if it wasn't for me being Relief Society president. And now we're all out as a complete family, and we are all healing and loving each other, and we're closer than ever. It has been amazing in that way. I would not change it.

John Dehlin [02:47:33] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:34] One thing I would just say that has been interesting for me, as someone who has poured over the submissions for this panel that I didn't actually anticipate was just how many of those submissions included some type of faith transition or a type of crisis experience during the time that they served as Relief Society president and having to kind of hold this really high demand calling at the same time as really going through something that's personally very confronting and demanding. So just something to acknowledge or that was something that I did not anticipate

John Dehlin [02:48:30] in the spirit of being constructive. And this isn't your job, but if you want to offer, if you had suggestions to the Mormon Church First Presidency, to the leaders that might structure how Relief Society should be churchwide, including the role of Relief Society president all the way down to the bishop and male leaders who might interact with Relief Society presidents. What advice do you have for the men of the church leaders and lay members? We'll start with you, Shelley.

Shelley Densley [02:48:59] Apologize. You know, one of the one I remember, a sister called me out right in a lesson, and she was not happy with how she felt during getting a food order. For me, food orders are very tender people, you know, you just don't know how they're feeling. And I thought I did a really good job, but I obviously didn't. And she called it out right during a lesson.

Shelley Densley [02:49:23] And I don't like to be called out in public and feel embarrassed, but I was like, oh, my gosh, what do I do? But you know what? I reached around and I put my arm on her leg and I said, I'm so sorry that I made you feel that way.

Shelley Densley [02:49:36] So I think the most important thing that we can do is what we all do on the ward level is we apologize for the mistakes that we make. They need to apologize for the mistakes they've made. And there is plenty of mistakes. Then we could have trust in them. You can't have trust in people who cannot be honest with themselves or with the church members.

Marian Johnson [02:49:56] Yeah, that's beautiful. I would say to the hierarchy, the male hierarchy, you have got these women, lucky you, that these women are even willing to serve and do what they're willing to do, because they have a force and a power and an energy that is unmatched. And I would say that what needs to be given to them is dignity and respect.

Marian Johnson [02:50:20] Dignity and respect. It's too hard, it's too easy for men to accidentally put across the idea to these female leaders that they are still higher. You know, we talked about the hierarchy, and the church is a very hierarchical organization from the tippity top to the, you know, us little nobodies at the bottom. And the women know that they're the nobodies at the bottom. Maybe not.

Marian Johnson [02:50:48] Maybe not concretely or verbally, but they know. And so I would just beg the men at the top, please give these women the dignity and respect, Respect that they deserve.

Alisa Jones [02:51:04] I used to think that one of the solutions to patriarchy was just having, like, a female bishopric or for a woman to be able to be called as a bishop, just having more women in leadership. But the problem is the women are all conditioned as well. And so women often reinforce the patriarchy as much or more than men do.

Alisa Jones [02:51:26] So I feel like the answer is deeper and goes much larger and feels a lot more complicated. It isn't just about putting women in positions of power. I think things need to change in terms of doctrine and in terms of even looking, like you said, apologize, looking at things, statements that were made by Brigham Young about women to retract some things, to go in and make corrections on things. Because if it's still in our canon, people can draw from that and find meaning in it. And it creates complexity for them in terms of managing what they believe and feel. So I think some corrections about things that have been said about women and also creating positions for women.

Alisa Jones [02:52:11] But it has to be the right kind of woman who has not been a product of the conditioning that she's experienced. I didn't mean to say the right kind of woman, but just putting women in who have been conditioned isn't the answer. I also think, like I said before, training, giving people support as they go into these callings so that they aren't just relying on their personal experience. And I think you'll see a lot. A lot fewer problems.

Ricky Hein [02:52:41] Yeah, I was going to say almost the exact same thing. It feels much bigger than just giving us more. It's doctrine. It's doctrine. It's how the church is structured. I mean, I'm thinking, like, about the temple and all kinds of things. You know, if there's going to be changes made, it's gotta start at, like, the very beginning. You know, it's. I'm like, thinking about what we do in the temple and, you know, the afterlife, all of it. It's everything it's got. You know, it's like it's an entire thing that needs to change. It's not just, here, have some more responsibilities, or here, sit on the stand now because we're equal now, or, you know, whatever. It's way more than that. It's way more than that. So you're much more eloquent. I don't like to be after you. I just have to say ditto.

Alisa Jones [02:53:52] You go first next time.

John Dehlin [02:53:57] This is great. Okay, a couple more in your opinion, how important is it for the Mormon Church to just give women the priesthood? Ricky will let you go first.

Women and Priesthood Authority in the Church

Ricky Hein [02:54:06] Can you say the question again?

John Dehlin [02:54:07] How important is it for the Mormon Church to just give women the priesthood? Or is it not important? Or do you not care?

Ricky Hein [02:54:14] I care. I don't think that's necessarily the answer. Like just like we were talking about, like, sure, it's great. We would love to be equal. We would love, you know, more opportunity, we would love to feel validated in what, in our responsibilities or what we do. But you can't just give women the priesthood. I think it's way more than that. Of course I, when I was in the church, that's, I thought that would be great, like, of course. But it feels way bigger than that to me.

Alisa Jones [02:54:53] I think if they're going to continue with the structure as it is, that's probably the only option. I do think that there's a way for things to change without women getting the priesthood. I used to be pretty passionate about that, that I felt like that was the answer. I think it's a lot more complex now. I think it would be a good start, but I don't know how they would even do it. There's so much history. But I do think it would be a good start and I do think women should have the same authority as men and if that means to be through priesthood, absolutely,

Marian Johnson [02:55:27] yeah. I used to think, okay, the women just need the priesthood. But then there's a social phenomenon, it's called status or a caste system.

Shelley Densley [02:55:38] Right.

Marian Johnson [02:55:39] And so I think if you have, you know, there's men here and there's women here, it's a oneup, one down situation. I think if you give the priesthood to the women, what that does is it weakens it status wise to the men and then I think that the men will be compelled to create something new and different that is still male.

Marian Johnson [02:56:01] So I would love to say yes, give women the priesthood, but I know that somehow that will not work. It's still going to be a patriarchal system, society, culture and so somehow that's just not going to come out. So I don't know if you have something completely separate for women to do.

Marian Johnson [02:56:20] I don't know right now. I think just it is so patriarchal in its history, in its canon that there is not one easy way to make women equal. I wish I could come up with a way that can be done. But let me just contrast that with.

Marian Johnson [02:56:40] I have a cousin on my mother's side of the family. My non Mormon side of the family. She is a minister of a congregation in Canada of a Christian denomination. She's a minister, and we converse a little bit by email. And I was asking her, as I was kind of doing my deconstruction, tell me a little bit more about your church and what you do and your congregation and so forth. And she said. She sent me the link to her congregation's website, and right there at the top of the page where it had the name of the congregation, and right there below it, in great big letters, it said, we are all equal.

Marian Johnson [02:57:24] And it absolutely blew my mind because you will never find that phrase on LDS.org never. Because we are not all equal. We're not all equal. And we know it. And that's why the four of us are sitting here, because we know it.

Shelley Densley [02:57:43] Yeah. Giving women the priesthood, first of all, they'd have to say that God is giving them the priesthood, and then they'd have to change everything. It all would have to be egalitarian. I don't know how that would ever. It wouldn't fix it for me still, I mean, because it didn't start from truthful origins. So, I mean, if the people who want to stay. I want people to stay who want to and not to be harmed. So if everybody could be on equal ground, 100%. I don't know how they do that, though.

John Dehlin [02:58:13] I wanted to quickly give you all a chance to respond to that Camille Johnson quote. Did we already talk about that? So for those who don't know what I'm talking about, last week, I think a top Mormon church female leader basically said, I pursued an education, both undergraduate and a law degree. I was married midway through my legal education. I had my first son the year after I passed the bar. I had babies, and my husband and I loved and nurtured them while we were both working. So basically, she's telling the women of the church, of the Mormon Church and the world. See, Mormon women can pursue graduate degrees and they can pursue careers.

John Dehlin [02:58:52] We in the Mormon Church support our women getting graduate degrees and pursuing careers. I don't know what you're all talking about in terms of inequality. Do any of you have a desire to respond to how that made you feel and whether that's the message you've received as Mormon women?

Ricky Hein [02:59:12] Yes. That exhausts me. Like, I'm so tired. I'm just so tired. We do it all, and I don't want to flaunt that. It doesn't feel healthy to me. We, you know, sure, that's great. Go to grad school, be a mom, you know, but what privilege and help are you getting in the background? That's not sustainable in the slightest, given

John Dehlin [02:59:43] what is expected of Mormon women.

Ricky Hein [02:59:44] Absolutely. Absolutely. And great. If you have the drive to do that, 100% do that, that's wonderful. But it feels so unsustainable to me. And granted, I am personally right now just so tired because I feel like I'm in the thick of parenthood. I'm in the thick of working and my faith journey. So I personally feel very tired, but it just feels like, what, you know, no, it's not sustainable. You can't do it all.

Alisa Jones [03:00:26] So I remember being at BYU in a religion class when we were required to read to the Mothers in Zion and to the Fathers in Zion. And I felt from a pretty young age that I was going to have a career. It was going to be important for me to work outside the home.

Alisa Jones [03:00:44] And reading that in the context of byu, reading that, it was definitely. I also. I wondered what the intention was. There was some messaging around that. So we have all these women. Half the class is women. We're coming here to get degrees which lead to careers. And yet the messaging we're getting is. The messaging of that talk is women need to prioritize home and children, and that means staying home with them and having children raised in the home.

Alisa Jones [03:01:16] And so that complexity has always been a part of my journey, figuring out how do I make both of those things work. But her statement is rooted in privilege. Like you said, in order to be a lawyer, you have to have help. Clearly, there's help. There's probably financial privilege at play, clearly, financial privilege at play.

Alisa Jones [03:01:38] And. And that needs to be addressed. And so if that is your journey, that's absolutely amazing. But let's address all of the other parts of it, too.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:47] Yeah,

Ricky Hein [03:01:50] yeah.

Marian Johnson [03:01:50] To have that put up as a standard is, for me, having been at BYU at the time of that talk, the mothers in Zion talk to me, that is a slap in the face. Such a slap in the face, because I took that to heart. I followed the prophet.

Marian Johnson [03:02:13] I followed the prophet. And for someone with, you know, as we say, clearly with that much privilege to stand up and say, well, look at me. This is what I've done. You can do the same. No, you cannot. Not everybody can do the same.

Marian Johnson [03:02:26] You know, we started having babies right away. We were BYU students living in Wymount Terrace, you know, having those kids, because that's my job, and that's what we're supposed to do. And my husband He. He gets a job after graduation. I didn't finish. And we go about the business of building a big family and my husband working his guts out to support a family of eventually seven on a single income.

Marian Johnson [03:02:53] And that is difficult. That is extremely difficult. And we spent a lot of years absolutely flat busted broke. So when I hear a woman of privilege saying something like that, I kind of feel like, wow, really? How dare you? How dare you?

Shelley Densley [03:03:14] If she's going to stand up and say things like that, they better change the family proclamation and all the lesson manuals or you don't mean it. They do not mean it. They say all those kind of things, but they don't do anything at the ward level and stick level to change that. That story that we're told, that the most important thing we can do is be moms and raise our kids.

Alisa Jones [03:03:34] I'm thinking about what Marianne said about sometimes in the church, you're given one path as a woman, and that is motherhood. And so perhaps the conversation needs to change to be more finding who you are, finding what your mission is, so that if you are a Camille Johnson and you want to do it all, you're going to have to structure your life in a way to make that happen and just as much honoring women who want to stay home with their children and that she's going to have to construct her life in a way that allows for that, too.

Alisa Jones [03:04:04] So for me, that's where it lies, is allowing for people to define their own destiny and then encouraging and supporting whatever that looks like. But there's a real danger in telling people they should do what she did. And I think that messaging, because you have a lot of people who gave up. When I worked as when I was called as a Relief Society president, there was a sister who was going through a divorce, and she had four young children, and she quit school to put her husband through school.

Alisa Jones [03:04:35] And here she's left with nothing. And that is the reality for a lot of women. If you look at the divorce rate, we have to live in reality. And the reality is that women are going to be in the workforce.

Alisa Jones [03:04:47] And so helping her figure out why she ended up in the situation she was, she had a lot of anger and frustration because she was left with a mess. She did figure out her path, but I think had she known the end from the beginning, she would have finished her degree so that she had that security.

Alisa Jones [03:05:09] So I going back to what Marian said, I think it's about helping people figure out what they want to do and not giving them

Ricky Hein [03:05:18] a Script.

Alisa Jones [03:05:19] A script. And having those roles be so defined. The other part, I think that's so important in this conversation is having egalitarian marriages where men. It's not just redefining women's role, but what men's role is in having a family so that they're not babysitting their children. They are equal co parents and that might look different at different times. That's been my experience is I had a period of time where I stayed home, but. And then I have had a period of time where I worked part time. I have now I work full time, so. But that's also come because of privilege. I've been able to work because of. Of privilege. I've had a spouse who supports that and we've been able to financially have help.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:58] Yeah. Yep.

Reasons Faith Was Affected or Lost

John Dehlin [03:06:02] All right, I think I have one more rapid fire question and then we've got just a couple to end. So you guys have been amazing. Thank you. Can you share just really quickly, I'm assuming none of you have an orthodox Mormon faith anymore. Can each of you just quickly share what caused you to lose it? Just, just as a really brief kind of bullet point summary. Just start. What were the things that really were the big cracks at your shelf that led to the dissolution of your orthodox faith?

Ricky Hein [03:06:34] Inequality in church, women's roles and church history. That was huge.

John Dehlin [03:06:47] Maybe top three issues church wise. Yeah, church history,

Ricky Hein [03:06:52] polygamy. And I actually had never heard of polyandry until two years ago and it blew my mind. Mind tell people what that is. Just really polyandry is when. Well, it's when a married man marries another married man's wife.

John Dehlin [03:07:11] So Joseph Smith doing that?

Ricky Hein [03:07:13] Yes, Joseph Smith doing that with 13 year olds or whatever, however old they were or. No, no, no, it was not that. Sorry, that's polygamy. I forget who specifically was his first marrying Joseph marrying other people's women. But not only that, like going behind that man's back and doing it while he was on a mission and. Yeah, that was shocking. Yeah, all sorts of things. All sorts of things. But church history was big Book of Mormon stuff. Historicity, things not lining up over the many, many years of church history.

Alisa Jones [03:07:56] First, polygamy, When I found out about that in seminary, I came home to my dad and he tried to explain it to me, but it's always been an issue. I have friends who in high school are gay. Were gay and so feeling so much love and concern for them. Several of my friends served missions and then came out after their mission. And just watching their experience, I Felt such a love and connection and protection of them and their family circumstances and where their life was going to be. And then race for sure has been a concern for me. My youngest child is black and helping figure out how to teach her and it's complicated and I think those would be the top three for me.

John Dehlin [03:08:45] Race, meaning you don't like the church's stance on race? Yes, specifically.

Alisa Jones [03:08:49] Specifically. So that blacks. Well, in the Book of Mormon there is. It's said that it's a curse of Cain, so that the black skin has a connotation of being evil. And we haven't had anything that's really undone that. So I think coming out, we've had people soften it. But that's really painful if you, if you read that even it's very painful. And it makes you start to question your relationship with God already in a culture where you can feel like a second class citizen and then black men not being able to have the priesthood. So it's pretty entrenched in Mormonism and I think some of that was probably cultural due to the time, but we, we could make changes. We could make changes to make that better.

Marian Johnson [03:09:39] Okay, so just to verify the question,

John Dehlin [03:09:41] John, is top three things that cause you to lose your Mormon faith.

Marian Johnson [03:09:45] Okay. Cause you to lose your faith. Okay. My dad passed away the end of 2020, and my dad and the church were almost synonymous.

Margi Dehlin [03:09:59] Okay.

Marian Johnson [03:10:01] And so I lose my dad and I start asking all the big existential questions, right? My, the foundation of my life cracked at that moment. And so I just start asking the big questions because several years previously I had some. A series of awful surgeries and whatnot. And during that recovery, I took up meditation and I was doing a lot of meditation just to cope with pain and so forth. And I found as a person who meditates, I was connecting with something different. It wasn't Mormon flavored, if that makes sense. I was connecting with something bigger that was not judging me.

Marian Johnson [03:10:44] It was love that was for free. It was light, that was for everyone. And it was just something so different. And so after my dad passed and all five of my kids had left and I'm sitting here scratching my head thinking, what is the meaning of all of this? I am completely psychologically lost.

Marian Johnson [03:11:02] And I had a friend who said, you know, I've heard some things about Brigham Young lately that I'm kind of troubled about. I don't know what to make of this. And we looked at some of those things together and some of the absolutely horrific things that came out of that Man's mouth that I was. I was mortified. I'd never heard anything like that before.

Marian Johnson [03:11:26] And my kids had shared a couple things. Like, did you know that they were, you know, recruiting young women from Europe and bringing them over to marry the dudes? And I was like, oh, things that I would have said to my kids. That can't be true. That can't be true. You know, I was that mom. I wouldn't listen to them. So after I'm in this existential crisis mode, I started looking, I started peeling behind the curtain. I started doing the deep dive. And, yes, church history, huge.

Marian Johnson [03:11:57] You know, the plates, the rock, the hat, the treasure digging. All of that stuff's like, wow, I didn't know any of this stuff. Polygamy just blew me right away that it's still actually a valid piece of doctrine in the church. Plural marriage and just the social.

Marian Johnson [03:12:22] The social issues, you know, like black people in the church. And I remember in 1978, I was in junior high, and my dad came in the kitchen. He says, you guys won't believe it. Black people can have the priesthood now. And he was sobbing tears of joy, he was so thrilled.

Marian Johnson [03:12:37] But that even happened without so much as an apology or an acknowledgement. And like I said, a couple of kids, my kids feel like they're. They're part of that LGBTQ community whom I love. And you just can't keep changing the narrative to suit what people find out. You cannot keep saying, well, we have ongoing revelation because you guys keep finding stuff out.

John Dehlin [03:13:05] Sorry, you keep telling us we're doing bad stuff. So. Revelation.

Ricky Hein [03:13:09] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:13:09] Oh, revelation.

Marian Johnson [03:13:10] We'll fix it.

Shelley Densley [03:13:11] Yeah.

Marian Johnson [03:13:12] It just became so apparent to me that everything I was taught as a kid in seminary was not so. And that's a huge trust crisis. And so when you've got a trust crisis for what you've said in the past, and you've got a trust crisis for how you treat my siblings, my brothers and sisters. Now, I cannot, in my integrity, be a part of an organization that hurts people, and that squashes my soul. I can't. I can't do it.

Shelley Densley [03:13:45] So my Testimony as a 14, 15 year old taking the missionary discussions was based on Joseph Smith seeing the first vision, Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I really didn't have that belief before. And the fact that somebody in this time was able to see God in Jesus Christ, I believed it, you know, and that he established a church and that he was given the gold plates from Moroni, and I believed that all. And so when Covid happened I had time to start researching things that were bothering me. And actually, what was kind of bothering me was temple things. And so I was researching temple things, and I came upon something about tithing by Rock Waterman.

Shelley Densley [03:14:27] It was his. Yeah. About the changing of the tithing the moment Joseph Smith died. It used to be on your surplus, and then it changed to. I don't know what word they used, but they defined it as your gross income.

John Dehlin [03:14:39] If you read the scriptures, it says your increase. Right. 10% of your increase.

Shelley Densley [03:14:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:44] Which isn't your net income.

Shelley Densley [03:14:46] Yeah. So I.

John Dehlin [03:14:47] It's like your increase in assets.

Shelley Densley [03:14:49] Yeah. So I was like, oh, my gosh. They changed, you know, tithing. And so I remember my husband and I were traveling, and I'm like, hey, is it easy to pay tithing? You know? He's like, no, it's so hard. We have to take it out of our savings and it's killing us. And I'm like, well, hey, look what I found out. And I told him, and he was like, oh, my gosh. You know, so we think, like, the. Like, Joseph Smith was good, but everyone's gone rogue since then, you know, And. But then after that, I had to keep. I'm searching and searching on the Internet, you know, and then I remember calling my husband and saying, you know, brother Joseph's not looking so good.

Shelley Densley [03:15:24] You know, no one ever told me about polygamy when I joined the church. That was not in the missionary discussions. Okay. Oh, my gosh. So anyways, that is where I finally found out the whole truth about, you know, the rock and the hat. And, you know, I taught the missionary discussions in sign language. Okay. There was no rock in the hat.

Shelley Densley [03:15:45] Okay. I know what I taught. You cannot try to tell me that I taught people about a rock and a hat. So I was. Yeah, that's how it all kind of came apart. So. And then you find out everything else, like she found out in polyandry, and it's like opposite day for the church. The pioneer children, they were cruel to them.

Shelley Densley [03:16:05] They were cruel. Pioneer Day. Celebrating Pioneer day in Utah is terrible. What a terrible thing, you know? Oh, my gosh. It's the opposite. The church is the opposite of what it says it is.

John Dehlin [03:16:18] Thank you.

Grief and Loss From Leaving the Church

Margi Dehlin [03:16:21] I have a quick question. So now for in this present moment. Let's have a little question. For in this moment, as women who participated actively and have really worked, you know, in your relationship with the church, what is a loss that you count in this present moment. For yourself?

Alisa Jones [03:16:58] It used to be really tidy. It was when I was younger. I think the picture that I had growing up was, if you do this, then this is what you get. And part of that is just becoming an adult and growing and learning and having life experiences that you start to realize life isn't tidy, but the church, the packaging is very comfortable, and I sometimes miss that, but I don't always. I. Now I see a broader picture where I am comfortable. I'm more comfortable with the untidiness of it and. But sometimes that was comforting.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:35] Yeah.

Alisa Jones [03:17:35] To have it be really simple.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:36] Right.

Ricky Hein [03:17:43] I feel like I had a loss of identity when I. Two summers ago, my husband came to me and told me he didn't have a testimony anymore. And I thought the world was over. You know, I had issues with things, but I packed them away because I knew the church was true. And at that moment, I. You know, I started. I did the whole. Started researching, started listening to, you know, Mormon stories, podcasts, and hours and hours every day, you know, researching, listening, consuming.

Ricky Hein [03:18:32] And it came to the point where I had so much information coming from so many directions that I was like, what is real? The church felt so real and true and good, and I loved it so much. And suddenly it was not real and it was not good.

Ricky Hein [03:18:56] And I was angry at it for dividing my family, for causing so much upheaval. And I truly felt like I lost everything. I didn't know what was reality. I didn't know who I was, what my purpose was. You know, that Billie Eilish song, What was I made for?

Ricky Hein [03:19:19] Like, truly, who am I? What am I? Where am I? It was everything. And so. And I'm still. I feel very raw still. I am so much. I'm very much in it still. And so I don't really have answers. So that loss feels current.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:42] Yeah. Thank you.

Shelley Densley [03:19:46] So the question is, what is the loss we're feeling right now?

Margi Dehlin [03:19:49] What is a loss that you're feeling? Maybe as you reflect on the years that you spent as a woman in the church, if there's something that particularly

Shelley Densley [03:20:01] comes to mind, a loss of time, a loss of time with my husband, you know, a loss. All that precious time. You know, those men, leaders who stand up and say, I haven't sat with my wife for 15 years and she never complains at church. At church, they stand up and say that I didn't sit with my husband probably for. Not 15, but pretty close to 15 years of precious time. But I did complain. I was a big complainer.

John Dehlin [03:20:28] Murmur.

Shelley Densley [03:20:29] I was a big murmurer. Do you have to go to that Meeting. And I would let the kids, little kids call him and bring him out of the meeting. They'd be crying for him to come home, and he would come home. But the time. The amount of time that I have lost with my loved ones, with my, especially my husband, is so, so sad. And with the kids, too. You know, just the amount of precious time that I spent in meetings and that my husband spent in meetings is a huge loss. And of money. Of money. So much time and money.

Marian Johnson [03:21:03] I think the greatest loss that I feel is. Is that delicious sense of certainty that I once had. That. And. And that is. That is a beautiful sensation to feel certain in. In what you're doing. That If I do XYZ, if I check off 1, 2, 3, if. If I don't do this, this, this, and if I don't do that, that, that, then I'm certain that this will all go well, that I'll be blessed. That, you know, all the things. All the things.

Marian Johnson [03:21:35] And so to have that sense of certainty just kind of dissipate. And at this. At this age in my life where I've built my entire foundation for decades, decades on this, to have that certainty gone. Yeah, my foundation was rocked to the core. Well, I mean, it was decimated. I had no foundation. It was gone. It was gone. And psychologically, I was left just with a gaping wound. My soul was just absolutely broken. And so I'm rebuilding. I'm rebuilding piece by piece. I'm pulling in things, you know, energy and the universe. And you can call it God, I don't care what you call it, but there's a sense of goodness, there's a sense of love.

Marian Johnson [03:22:24] And I'm trying to figure out what that looks like and how I can incorporate that into my life. And I've heard people say, atheists or people who aren't in religion have no reason to be moral. And that makes no sense, because when am I being moral to gain a reward? Is that moral?

Marian Johnson [03:22:47] Or am I being moral because that is the right and good thing to do amongst all people. These are the kinds of things that I lay awake at night trying to plug back into my basket that was completely emptied when I lost that sense

Shelley Densley [03:23:02] of certainty or doing things out of fear.

Margi Dehlin [03:23:05] Yes.

Shelley Densley [03:23:05] Oh, my gosh.

Marian Johnson [03:23:06] Everything out of fear.

Shelley Densley [03:23:06] Everything was out of fear. I. I am not afraid anymore. I'm not afraid. I had so much fear before. I prayed all the time out of fear. It wasn't out of love. It was out of fear, you know, and it's so painful. People don't realize that when you've given the church decades of your life and your whole life is built on it in your marriage, that it's really devastating for it to fall apart. Super painful. Very, very painful being on a different page than your husband. We are always on the same page, and all of a sudden, we're not on the same page. And guess what? It's okay. We're still really happy, and it's fine. But we believe a little differently when it comes to spirituality or, you know, and it's fine. We don't have to be exactly the same.

Marian Johnson [03:23:52] Yeah. Again, could I speak to that for just a minute? Like, you talk about, you know, you and your spouse being on a different page. I'm. I'm seeing a lot of people because a lot of people are leaving. They just are. Okay, guys, cats out of the bag. People are leaving. And I'm seeing married couple,

Shelley Densley [03:24:06] some of

Marian Johnson [03:24:06] whom are just at odds with each other, and they are attacking each other because they both think that the other has become the enemy. And it's so sad and it's so unnecessary. And I have to give credit here where credit is due. When I told my husband, I just, I don't think I can do this anymore. I just. I can't do it. And he let me explain a little bit, and it made no sense to

Margi Dehlin [03:24:28] him,

Marian Johnson [03:24:31] but he actually counseled with a brand new bishop that we got at that time. And that bishop, my goodness, if all bishops were like this bishop, things would be awesome. This bishop said to my husband, your marriage is important. Your marriage comes first. Choose your wife, choose your kids, and you heal those relationships. And you do that. And that's what that was. He was what he opted to do. He chose me. He chose me

Margi Dehlin [03:25:04] on the. On the other side of that. And I don't want you to feel pressure to come up with something, so please just answer if it feels, you know, genuine. And I say that because I think we love to put bows on things and, you know, make a positive out of all things. And I don't think that's particularly healthy. But if it is true for you, is there something that you've gained through the process of, let's say, connecting with yourself or going through this particular process of whatever shift you've made in belief, or is there anything that comes to mind that you value now that you've actually gained from the process?

Ricky Hein [03:25:53] I'm learning to listen to myself when. Before I thought it was God, before I thought it was the spirit, and now I realize that it Was myself. That I am good, that I am innately good, and I can choose for myself. And I'm still in the process. I think we're all probably still in the process, but I think just taking back my own choice. In the church, we didn't have a choice. We had free agency, but there was only one right way. And now I'm learning that my way is my own way, and it looks different for everyone. It may be a long time before I figure it out, but I'm able to choose which direction I go.

Margi Dehlin [03:26:47] Brilliant. Yes.

Alisa Jones [03:26:48] Mine's very similar. That I am charting my own course, and that can look like mine still is participating in the church at the level that I'm participating, but just that freedom to not have it defined for me, that I get to define it for myself.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:04] Yeah. Yep.

Marian Johnson [03:27:06] Oh, yeah, I agree. I'm building from the ground up a sense of self. I'm finding out, much to my delight, that I've been worthy all along. Turns out that I was a good person all along. That it doesn't have to be proven, it doesn't have to be earned. That it's free. That's a free gift to be a soul in this universe and worthy all along. And ironically, the other gifts that I have received from this faith transition is that my family relationships are much improved. Much improved. And it's.

Marian Johnson [03:27:45] It's kind of hard to. To imagine it because, okay, my husband is. Is still a believer. But when I. When I deconstructed the church, I also deconstructed my marriage and found that it was. It was. It was not an egalitarian marriage at all. That. And neither one of us meant for it to be that way. It just happened. It just happened. And so I went to my good husband and I pointed these things out. I said, this is not serving me. This is hurting me. And I just laid it all out.

Marian Johnson [03:28:17] And he said, yeah, it was kind of an Eve moment. I see that this must be so. You know, he got it. He's like, oh, yeah, I get this. I will grow. I will be better. And with my kids who did leave the church, you know, I was that mom who said, well, that wasn't my experience.

Marian Johnson [03:28:35] And, well, I didn't see it that way, that kind of a thing. But now I can sit down with my kids and be like, oh, my gosh, what? The stuff you got in young women's, no wonder you were traumatized, you know, that kind of thing. So very ironically, my relationship with my spouse, with my children is vastly improved and getting Better.

Shelley Densley [03:28:56] Like I said before, I lost my sense of self pretty much the moment I was married. And I gained back who I am and I finally started giving myself credit. I gave all the credit away. I gave it all to God. And I realized that I am smart and I have done some really hard things and I have made it through. And that's because of me and of who I am. And I'm super happy that I have figured that out.

Shelley Densley [03:29:24] And I can't explain how amazing it's been for my husband and my children and all of us to have deconstructed and walked away, how much closer we are now. That doesn't mean it's been easy. I mean, I thought we just have one or two hard conversations. No, we have those hard conversations sometimes. Every day, every other day. Sometimes we'll miss a week or two, and I think, oh, we're finally done. But you know what? You have to keep having those hard conversations with your kids and saying, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Let the Scouts buzz your hair every. Every time you went to camps because they didn't like your long hair.

Fear of Speaking Up and Closing Reflections

Shelley Densley [03:29:58] I'm so sorry I allowed those leaders to hurt you. I'm so sorry for the, you know, the terrible lessons you had in young women's, you know, I'm so sorry. And you just get to keep talking about it and saying you're sorry. And my husband and our relationship is so much better, too. And I started holding him accountable for the sacrifices that I made that never should have been put on the table in any way, shape or form for me to pray about. You know, we didn't need to pray about it because of course I'm going to sacrifice because that's what I've been taught to do.

Shelley Densley [03:30:27] So now there's much more. We're authentic with each other. There's nothing to hide. We're so honest and open and we talk about sex and all kinds of things like that we never could talk about before. And it's so much better, so much better on this side than inside the church before.

Margi Dehlin [03:30:49] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:30:50] All beautiful. Yes or no answer. Healthier and happier. No longer believing. Yes or no?

Ricky Hein [03:31:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:31:04] But they say wickedness never was happiness.

Ricky Hein [03:31:06] I'm so wicked, John.

Alisa Jones [03:31:10] Well, I'm still sort of a believer. I have my things that I believe in, but I've never been happier in where I'm at,

Marian Johnson [03:31:22] you know, building a new sense of self is not an easy job. And so I struggle. I have struggles a lot because I'm rebuilding a whole Foundation. So I won't pretend like, oh, yeah, I'm happy all the time. La di da. It's not like that. But freer.

Ricky Hein [03:31:38] Yes.

Marian Johnson [03:31:38] Freer, most definitely. And in fact, you know, when I took off those goggles, those blue goggles and looked around, it's like the world expanded in front of my very eyes. That, you know, humanity was incredible. Yeah. So, yeah, struggling still, for sure, but freer.

Shelley Densley [03:32:01] So much healthier and happier. There's just no description of how I feel now. And talking about wickedness, somebody made up that dynamic definition. You know, I get to make up my definition for what I think is. What I think is wicked is just people hurting each other and not apologizing. It's as simple as that. I think we're here on this planet to love each other and to create beautiful relationships with each other. I think that's what it's all about.

John Dehlin [03:32:29] Beautiful. In this culture, you don't speak up against the church or the leaders, and you certainly don't do that as a woman. So on the one end, there's, like. Are any of you afraid of the consequences of speaking up today? Anything from church discipline all the way to, like, family or friend ostracization versus. Is it freeing and healthy for you to speak up and to use your voice?

Ricky Hein [03:33:00] For me, Yes, I was. I've.

Marian Johnson [03:33:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:33:05] So the afraid part first.

Ricky Hein [03:33:06] Afraid part, first of consequences. Yes. Actually, my husband and I and our. We took our records off of the church because.

John Dehlin [03:33:15] So you resigned?

Ricky Hein [03:33:16] We resigned mainly because. Well, for lots of reasons. But I want to make my own choices. I don't want to be excommunicated, because I think that's ridiculous. Like, I want to be the one to step away, because I want to step away. So I'm not afraid of church discipline. That wouldn't happen anyway. I don't know if I'm afraid of family backlash. I am. I'm sad to be even having this discussion that there would be family backlash. I think that's more than anything. I'm satisfied. Sad that there will be, and I'm angry that there will be. I'm not afraid of it. I'm just sad and angry.

Alisa Jones [03:34:07] I guess I think some people might be surprised that I'm here, but I don't suspect that I'll get. I'm not worried about it. And I feel like if I do get consequences, I can handle it. Mm.

Marian Johnson [03:34:25] Sure. There's concern that people in my small town will take offense, that my family members who are still very active, will be offended. But to that I would say, guys, how healthy is it for an organization to not leave a way for someone to say, I'm not feeling this. I'm having pain. Something isn't working for me here, and therefore I need to step away. If there's not a healthy way to do that, that's a reflection on that organization. So I think I would have to turn that around to anyone who would want to come after me and, you know, whatever they might think and just say, you know, what did Jesus teach love or did he not? And I would hope that you would offer me that grace.

Shelley Densley [03:35:20] I don't have any either. I mean, I don't any concerns about people. My parents are gone decades ago. My husband's parents are gone decades. We lost our parents when we were all young. I don't have anybody who would really be upset with me. Maybe my twin sister, but I think she's pretty okay. She'll be okay. I'm not worried at all, actually, so

John Dehlin [03:35:42] that's great.

Margi Dehlin [03:35:43] So kind of as we wrap up here, is there anything that you were hoping to share that maybe we haven't asked that you might want to, like, leave us with or.

John Dehlin [03:35:56] Closing thoughts.

Margi Dehlin [03:35:57] Yeah. Or closing thoughts about the experience. Anything you just kind of feel you would want to add?

Ricky Hein [03:36:05] I don't think there's much I would add, but I just wanted to say thank you for creating this space. If you were to ask me five years ago what I would be, if I would be like, I was joking last night at dinner when we all met with dinner, that I used to think John was the devil because my husband would sometimes watch it, and I'm like, what are you doing? Like, you're ruining yourself.

Ricky Hein [03:36:36] But, you know, I've come to. Is this, like, full circle here? It's been life changing, life changing. And although I am in the thick of it, still, I can see the light and I can feel the difference that this has all made.

Ricky Hein [03:36:54] I would not change for one second my upbringing and my Mormon heritage and my time in the church, because it is who I am. It has brought me to this point, and so I would never change it. But I'm so grateful to be where I am and in this space. And it feels very safe, and I just feel really good and lots of love. So thank you.

Alisa Jones [03:37:26] What was the question?

John Dehlin [03:37:29] Any final thoughts you want to share?

Alisa Jones [03:37:33] You know, I think sunlight is the best disinfectant. I heard that here on Mormon Stories, that by shedding light on our experiences, I think it's empowering. Not just to us, but I'M hopeful that it will help other people.

Alisa Jones [03:37:50] I think we keep bringing that back in terms of figuring out. I know, figuring out, kind of talking about the church and talking about my experiences. I'm still in the middle of it, and I'm probably going to be in the middle of it for the rest of my life and just accepting and expecting that that's going to be part of the journey. And even as I sit here with these sisters, I'm going to call you sisters, I think that it's. You never reach the end, and I never want to reach that end. I want to always be striving and looking forward. I have a love for the church.

Alisa Jones [03:38:29] I have a love for my experience that I had in it and that I continue to have in it. My primary kids are just a light in my life, and I get such joy out of being with them every Sunday and honoring that part of me and allowing for that to happen.

Alisa Jones [03:38:53] I don't want to be put in a box. I don't want to have to be contained anywhere. So I'm hoping that people who watch this feel like they can be free to be whatever it is. One of my. The best parts of my journey is I've been exploring Buddhism.

Alisa Jones [03:39:08] And in Buddhism, one of the tenants is to alleviate suffering. And I feel like that just corresponds so well with what Relief Society does. And I feel like at its core, Relief Society does that for people. And so I hope that it will continue to do that.

Shelley Densley [03:39:29] I'll start being Mormon, I feel was part of my journey that I was meant to be on. It really helped me as a lost teenager. So grateful for all, like the people that I met that helped me, that loved me, that supported me. I don't regret going on a mission. It prepared me for a lot of painful things in life. I love the people that I met, my companions.

Shelley Densley [03:39:51] I love my husband. We have a great marriage. He's my best friend. I wouldn't want to do this life with anybody else but him. And I had to be Mormon to find him. But I know that we were meant to leave, too. It was harmful for my family. And like Marian was saying, we need to be able to leave an organization that becomes unhealthy for us. We should not lose all of our friends. I do not really have any Mormon friends anymore, except for the couple that I've come here to Utah to stay and to visit with them. They still care about me. Even though I've left the church and I resigned and I probably wouldn't have thought about resigning But I know that numbers are really important, and I did not want anybody coming and knocking on my door so they could get good percentages for keeping track of me.

Shelley Densley [03:40:36] I wanted to be free of all that and not have to worry about anyone knocking on my door and make them feel responsible for me, because I was really happy and I'm in the right place where I'm supposed to be right now. And Mormon Stories has been so essential. Listening to your voices for hours and all the wonderful people you have on. Oh, my gosh, thank you so much for creating that support for those of us who have lost our. You know, we had a truth crisis. It's not a faith crisis. I still have faith. It was a truth crisis for me, and I'm just super thankful that I got to come and share with all of you and get to see you in person and hug you. It was awesome.

Marian Johnson [03:41:18] Yeah, I totally agree. Mormon Stories podcast was a safe landing spot.

John Dehlin [03:41:23] Is this a testimony meeting?

Margi Dehlin [03:41:24] I know now this is not the

Shelley Densley [03:41:26] direction that we were.

Margi Dehlin [03:41:30] Any final thought out of gratitude for

Marian Johnson [03:41:32] us, but, but no, it is. It was a safe space to land to let you know that you're not crazy, you're not bad, that there are other people. There are lots of people. Lots of people who feel how you feel.

Marian Johnson [03:41:46] And I guess the only thing I, I, I would close with is I read something in a Brene Brown book recently, and actually she was quoting somebody else. She was quoting Anne Lamott. And the quote is the opposite of faith is not doubt, but certainty.

Marian Johnson [03:42:07] And so I am trying to rebuild a faith in something big and something loving and something unknown and release that certainty and just that, yes, the church has so much potential. It has so much potential and it keeps getting in its own way over and over and over.

Marian Johnson [03:42:33] You've got to give people their dignity. You've got to give people the ability to think and love and feel, because that's who we are as humans. And if we can't find it there, and there are those who do, and great, I'm glad. But those of us who don't find that there, we need to be able to be released with love. We really do.

John Dehlin [03:43:02] Can I get an amen?

Margi Dehlin [03:43:04] All the amen. All the amen.

John Dehlin [03:43:07] Can I get a hallelujah? What an amazing panel. What an amazing panel.

Margi Dehlin [03:43:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:43:15] Yeah. So Margi and I just want to thank all of you. So, Ricky, Elisa, Marian, and Shelley, thank you so much for your courage and your poise and your wisdom and your willingness to share with us your stories. Can we just Say thank you to start with that. Thank you.

Ricky Hein [03:43:35] Thank you.

Shelley Densley [03:43:36] Yeah. Thank you, everyone.

Marian Johnson [03:43:37] Total pleasure.

Gratitude, Acknowledgments, and Upcoming Panels

John Dehlin [03:43:39] I also want to thank Bishop Bo Bo. Beau is the one that had the idea of the bishop's panel and then he's worked behind the scenes tirelessly to make this and future panels possible. So, Beau, we love you. We hope to have you back on in some way and we're grateful. Margi has worked tirelessly. She's the main person right now who reads the video submissions and vets the applications to help us find the best fit for each panel. So, Margi, you've been working super hard and co hosting. Thank you so much.

Margi Dehlin [03:44:16] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:44:18] Yeah. And if that weren't enough, we're super excited to announce that we have two. We have chosen our two upcoming panels. The first one is women who are currently in the young single adult program in the Mormon church or women who in the past 6 to 12 months were actively involved. We heard it's a minefield out there. It's a circus trying to date as a Mormon woman who's single. So we'd love to hear those stories. So if you fit that description or know someone who does, please go to MormonStories.org find the application, check the little box for the YSA, you know, women's panel, and we'll hopefully pick you.

John Dehlin [03:45:06] And sometimes we, like last week, will choose someone to have their own long form story told, which is different from the panel, but we really want to cover that. The second panel we want to cover. As we mentioned before, we've heard a recent quote from inside official church headquarters that 40% of Mormon missionaries who are returning from their missions leave the church within six months. We want to know what, what's going on in Mormon missions? Why are so many returned missionaries leaving the church after six months of serving their mission? That's unheard of hemorrhaging in the church. And we just want to know what's going on.

John Dehlin [03:45:46] So if you recently returned from your Mormon mission, let's just say in the past six to 12 months, we want to know what's going on, what your mission was like, why you think you or others are leaving the church. So again, please, right now go and apply, you will have to submit a video because that just helps us get a feel for your presence.

John Dehlin [03:46:09] But you know, and we have many more panels planned. You know, pimos physically and mentally out, never Mormons. People that are like geeks about Mormon stories or Mormons but have never been Mormon. They just are fascinated with our culture.

John Dehlin [03:46:28] Divorced people have experienced divorce in the church. Men who have been in the young single adult program. So many different categories, please go and apply to become a Mormon Stories interviewee. We would love to have you. And there's always the long form episodes, too. So if you think you have a really great story that maybe we haven't heard of before that you think will benefit a lot of people, go to MormonStories.org apply to be on the show.

John Dehlin [03:47:00] Also want to thank Julia and Maven and Gerardo and Brooklyn and Clint and Carrie and all those at the Obra Stories foundation that make all this possible. And of course, our donors. We couldn't do it without you. Margi, any final thing you want to add?

Margi Dehlin [03:47:15] I don't think so.

Shelley Densley [03:47:16] All right.

Margi Dehlin [03:47:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:47:17] Well, we did it. We gave the women a little. We gave the relief sighting presidents a little more time than we gave the bishops. I think that's fitting and proper. What do y' all think?

Margi Dehlin [03:47:26] Appropriate.

John Dehlin [03:47:27] Yeah. So it's been beautiful. Thanks for joining us. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.