Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. Today we're going to be covering Mormon bishop from Tennessee and his confrontation with a stake president. For those of you who don't know what a stake president is in the Mormon context, wards or congregations are led by bishops instead of priests or pastors. And then a leader over, let's just say 8 to 10 Mormon congregations is called a stake president. So it's a relatively high regional level leader in the Mormon Church. And today we're going to be talking about a Mormon bishop from Tennessee and his surprising confrontation with his stake president. And joining us for today's episode is Nathan Hinckley. Hey, Nathan. Bishop Hinckley, I should say.

Nathan Hinckley [00:00:47] Hey, John, how are you? Good.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] Thanks for joining us.

Nathan Hinckley [00:00:51] My pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] Really quickly, before we begin, I just want to let people know, one of the reasons we're doing this episode is because Margi and I are coming to Tennessee next weekend. The actual dates of that are. I mean, it's basically May 25th. And one of the reasons we, you know, one of the things we love to do is help create community for progressive and post Mormons that need friends or support. So I rushed to do this episode when I learned about Nathan or Bishop Hinckley. Because if you live in or near Nashville, Tennessee, or you know, the surrounding states and you're looking for friends and community, we are doing a meetup.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] And we just want to help you find all the support you need in your faith transitions or faith crisis. So in the description of YouTube or Facebook, you'll find a link to the Mormon Stories Nashville meetup. And there's going to be events May 24, all the way through May 26. There's a Facebook group that you can join to meet people ahead of time for the event. The main event is gonna BE on the 25th, I think in the afternoon. You can purchase tickets to be able to eat the food. But mostly we just. There's no profiteering going on. We're doing this literally just to help people find friends and community.

John Dehlin [00:02:09] And we're grateful specifically for Jennifer and Darren, who have graciously offered to help organize this event and whatever friends they are recruiting to help. So that's Jennifer and Darren Rogers. So anyway, tickets are cheap. Go to the link in the description if you want to meet us up next week. And if you want to host a Mormon Stories meetup in your area, in your state, in your city, reach out to us@mormonstoriesmail.com and we will do our best to organize an event. All right. So without any further ado, Nathan Hinckley, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast. It's so great to have you.

Nathan Hinckley [00:02:53] Thanks, John.

Nathan's Mormon Background and Bishopric Service

John Dehlin [00:02:54] All right, so this isn't going to be one of those four, five, six hour epic Mormon stories. We're going to try and do this in an hour to an hour and a half just because I think your story is fascinating. So, Nathan, let's just jump right in. Just tell us a little bit about your Mormon background just in terms of like, growing up, mission education and family. Just in like two to three to five minutes so we can get a sense for your background before we jump into your story.

Nathan Hinckley [00:03:22] Okay. So I come from pioneer stock. You notice my last name, Hinckley. So everyone wants to know if I'm related to the Prophet, which we are second cousins three times removed, which means. Means I've never met him or I had never met him. But we do go back to the pioneer times, actually. Arza Hinckley was. He and his brother had converted to Mormonism. We came through Arza and Gordon B. Hinckley came through. I think it was Ira. So we, we both come through two different brothers.

Nathan Hinckley [00:04:03] As far as my upbringing, I was born in Utah and actually in Layton, Utah. Consequently, I have a son named Leighton, also Hiram, also Brigham and Kaylee. But I guess we'll get to that in a second. Anyways, we moved to the south when I was just a baby. My parents pursued a musical career. They played music in lots of different places, including Dollywood and some other places here locally. But they, that was their, their main job for 20 plus years is, is as a music duo. So music brought us to the South.

Nathan Hinckley [00:04:50] We've always been in church. We've always done all of the church things. Of course, I went on a mission. When? From 1998 to 2000 in Argentina. Six weeks after my mission, I was married to my wonderful, beautiful wife, Amy. We were married in the Atlanta Temple.

Nathan Hinckley [00:05:15] And let's see, that takes me to having our four kids. I gave you their names. The oldest, our daughter was married last year. And that was about right at the time that my. Some people would call it a faith crisis. My wife, actually, I like the way she put it better. She said the church had a truth crisis that we became aware of really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] Nathan, so when were you called as a bishop and how long did you serve? Because it's important for people to know, especially outside of the Mormon context. It's a really big deal to be called as a Mormon bishop. It sort of means you've arrived within Mormon power. Structure or paradigm. And it's kind of a sacred responsibility because you're in effect a priest or a pastor of a large congregation, Right?

Nathan Hinckley [00:06:10] That's right. Let's see. Everybody's telling me my voice sounds really high, like I'm on helium. So hopefully that's not the case. But anyways, I'll have to turn my messages off, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:06:23] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [00:06:24] So your, your comment, John. So I. We are in a pretty small ward. Matter of fact, I would probably say that my siblings would have been more, more in line with being called as a bishop or something. But given where we live, that was the calling that I got. I did serve in two bishoprics before being called as the bishop. And it was, honestly, it was a great experience. It was tough. It was a lot of time, a lot of work. But I love the members. I know them all. Matter of fact, my wife is related to most of them, especially in this ward. It's a kind of what people would consider a family ward with lots of cousins and related folks. So it was, it was quite a. It was a five year commitment and we did the best I could and enjoyed it.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] Okay. All right. So how long ago did you stop being a bishop again?

Nathan Hinckley [00:07:36] So that was in 2017.

John Dehlin [00:07:39] Okay, so that's about seven years ago you were released from that calling. But in Mormonism they say once a bishop, always a bishop. Is that right? Do people still remember refer to you as bishop?

Nathan Hinckley [00:07:50] They do.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] Okay.

Nathan Hinckley [00:07:51] Yep. I, I get messages all the time or see people that still refer to me that way.

John Dehlin [00:07:57] Okay. All right. So how does a Mormon bishop start going to question or deconstruct their faith? How does that happen?

Church Survey Sparks Questions and Doubt

Nathan Hinckley [00:08:07] So when I was bishop, I was randomly selected to, to answer some questions from the church. I was sent a, I guess a questionnaire or a link, and in that they were trying to find what the bishops thought about the, the gospel topic essays.

Nathan Hinckley [00:08:31] Well, when I got the link, I kind of treated it like it was a product review from, you know, a blender or something. I thought I could click through. Yeah, it's great. It's great. But it said, did you read the gospel topic on essay on a certain topic? If I said yes or no, then it would say, why didn't you read it? Or it would say, what did you think about it? And it would just really dig deep. And then I would click to the next button and it would say, did you read the gospel topic essay on this?

Nathan Hinckley [00:09:06] And it finally got to a few that I knew that I didn't really want to read. John as you know and as most people know, we've been taught for years and years to kind of stay clear of what we were told was anti Mormon literature.

Nathan Hinckley [00:09:25] I had never honestly heard the name John de Lynn or Mormon stories or CES Letter or any of that stuff. I had always read what the church gave me or provided for me on our, on my mission. I was only allowed to bring five books on the mission and before the Internet. People, people don't realize how different that time was, how the church could really, just really control the, the narrative and the, the information.

Nathan Hinckley [00:10:01] So as I started reading some of those essays, I definitely, I would say had a shelf, shelf item moment and there were a few that I just didn't read. I told the church, oh yeah, it's great, you know, but I really didn't read it.

Nathan Hinckley [00:10:21] And that takes me through the rest of my time as bishop. That was probably a year or so before I was released when I got that, that survey from the church. But after Bishop I was on the high council and served in that way. But ultimately I asked to be released and some of these things had started to show themselves and I had some really close friends actually I reached out to him before this interview started.

Nathan Hinckley [00:10:55] His name is also Nathan and is also a bishop in our stake. And he and his family had left their actually related to my wife's family, but just some of the best people I had ever known. Just sincere, good, honest people. And when he left I would say that there was something inside of me that sort of said there's some serious problems here.

Nathan Hinckley [00:11:26] I would also mention that my sister and her husband had left the church about five or six years ago while I was bishop. And it was a tough time for me then, but there was, I was pretty hard on them. I was probably, you know, the most rude or the most judgmental or whatever from any of my siblings towards them.

Nathan Hinckley [00:11:52] Just because I, you know, they say that I, the way that I treated them was actually perfectly in line with how they would expect or how a true believing member would treat them. But anyways, when talking to my brother in law Todd, at one point we were discussing polygamy and he had just mentioned one little thing about are you sure about that? Because I don't think your church teaches that.

Nathan Hinckley [00:12:23] And that's when I realized that one of those gospel topic essays was regarding polygamy and the things that the church was now admitting. And it's things that I had never known or been taught. And so that was really kind of where this whole thing started.

Discovering Troubling History of Joseph Smith's Polygamy

John Dehlin [00:12:45] What Are some of the things you learned about Joseph Smith's polygamy or Mormon polygamy, that in all your years as a Mormon, including as a Mormon bishop, you were never taught? Can you just tell us three to five examples?

Nathan Hinckley [00:12:59] Well, I was always under the impression that for the most part, Joseph taught polygamy, Brigham lived it, and definitely had never seen any paintings or movies or anything depicting Joseph's polygamy or any, or

John Dehlin [00:13:19] probably any mention of it in a church context or in church curriculum, correct?

Nathan Hinckley [00:13:23] Absolutely no. No mention of it whatsoever. That was obviously, I think, one of the, one of the biggest things. But not only that, just the, just the, you know, I went back and read with my daughter the seminary lesson on polygamy, the teacher's manual for, for the seminary age kids. And it had literally one paragraph, you know, basically said, yeah, the church, you know, the Lord commanded this. They did it for a time. They don't do it anymore. And after listening to, to Lindsay Park's podcast, I just, I was just floored at how much information there is and how much information we have not been told. Of course, the 14 year old bride.

John Dehlin [00:14:26] So the fact that Joseph Smith married not only over 30 women, but girls as young as 14. Right, right.

Nathan Hinckley [00:14:36] Everybody, I think, on this podcast knows these points.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] No, no, no, no, no. There's gonna be people that come onto the podcast who have never heard of Mormon stories or of any of these things. So that's why I'm asking you to talk about it a little bit.

Nathan Hinckley [00:14:49] Okay. Regarding polygamy, I mean, I think those are the major points.

John Dehlin [00:14:57] Okay, I'll just add, tell me if I'm right or wrong. The polyandry, the fact that Joseph married women who were already married to other men, was that part of it?

Nathan Hinckley [00:15:08] That was a major part, John.

John Dehlin [00:15:09] And then that he married mother daughter pairs and sister pairs, Was that a problem?

Nathan Hinckley [00:15:15] That was a major problem.

John Dehlin [00:15:17] And I'm not trying to like, you know, lead the witness, so to speak. I just want to, I'm just trying to help you fill in because I know we talked about doing this interview this morning. It's not like you've had a lot of time to prepare. The other thing I think that bothers people is that Joseph hid it from Emma, his wife, that she was like the 22nd wife sealed to him, and that he took on his first 20 or so wives, hiding it from his actual wife and kind of lying to her about it and also hiding and lying from the general membership. Again, this is going to sound like I'm leading The witness. But were those parts of your studies?

Nathan Hinckley [00:15:57] Those were all parts of it, John. I think that was. Actually, we're getting to the point where I started going public with some of this stuff. But that was one of the things, the first things that I had mentioned, I really wasn't. Because I had said, look, I come from polygamy.

Nathan Hinckley [00:16:16] My great, great, great grandpa was a polygamist. And so I had said, I think I deserve the right to at least talk about this topic that no one seems to want to talk about. And really, the only point that I wanted to talk about at that point was the fact that Joseph lied about it. And that is definitely mentioned in the gospel topic essays that he, you know, that he said, what man, you know, has seven wives when I can only, you know, they say I have seven wives and I can only find one. And that was, I think, a month before.

Nathan Hinckley [00:16:51] Before he was killed. So, you know, till. Till his dying day in the public, he. I don't want to use the word lied about it. But that's what. That's what he. That's what the gospel topic essays tells us that he did is that he. He did not. He was not truthful about that.

Nathan Hinckley [00:17:12] And all the other things you said, John, are all things that have troubled me and things that I did not know, that were really tough to deal with.

John Dehlin [00:17:22] All right, so you start having problems with polygamy as you were trying to work with your daughter. What came next?

Nathan Hinckley [00:17:34] Well, so this time was a really tough time, John. I had a daughter that was about to get married in the temple to a recently converted fiance. I had sat in our basement and had the missionary lessons. And the missionaries would just turn to me and say, let's just let Bishop Hinckley, you know, teach this part. And I would go on and on about whatever, but there was a few times that I caught myself, you know, questioning. I was starting to. To look at some of this stuff and questioning whether or not I truly believed it.

Nathan Hinckley [00:18:18] So I think it was, I don't know, maybe six weeks or or so before my daughter's wedding, or I sat her and her fiance down and through about 30 minutes of tears where I couldn't even speak, I said, kaylee, I wanna. We. We want to talk to you about something.

Nathan Hinckley [00:18:42] And her first response to me was, you know, she was crying and she said, I just know that in the last days the very elect are going to be deceived, dad. You know, she kind of. She kind of was.

Nathan Hinckley [00:18:56] Was not real thrilled what we were telling her, but I think that gave her the permission to kind of look at this stuff. She had been like, I was, I had never looked, you know, and it was, it's a lot harder for kids nowadays with social media. But I had never looked at the stuff the church told us not to look at.

Nathan Hinckley [00:19:17] And I think with Kaylee, that gave her the permission to just, just look what's available and look for yourself form your own opinion. And within no time, she was, well, she removed her names and she said, yeah, this isn't for me. She kind of led the way, to be honest. And so we have.

John Dehlin [00:19:40] Your daughter was the first in your family to leave.

Nathan Hinckley [00:19:43] That's right, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:45] And, you know, what is it about Mormonism and its teachings of families and eternal families that makes that a really significant thing for a faithful, believing Mormon to have one of their children leave the faith? And what was that like for you and your wife?

Nathan Hinckley [00:20:02] Well, I think once it happened, John, my testimony of what, what would have been the eternal families and, and the way that the church teaches ceilings and things like that had already changed, so it wasn't as big of a deal. But had I, I want to get this one point out, the way that I was say with my sister when she left, pretty harsh.

Nathan Hinckley [00:20:36] I know that had my daughter, if we would have, you know, she would have went through the temple, probably would have got freaked out. She's a very smart, extremely smart girl, and I have no doubt that she would have very soon found all of this stuff out as she was out on her own and not in our home. And I have no doubt that I would have treated her in a very bad way.

Nathan Hinckley [00:21:07] I was so, I guess, blinded by what I was told was the truth, that it would not have been a, a good thing for our family. And that's really, that's really the, the one thing about all this that I know for sure that, that this is, this is the way that it needed to be for us for sure. She, she let out, she's, she's smart and she, she would have, she would have found the problems and I had just simply gave her the permission to look at them.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] Got it. Okay, so what happened next?

Faith Crisis Deepens Over Six Months

Nathan Hinckley [00:21:46] Okay, so over the next. So that was about a year ago, and for the next six months, you know, there was one time early on in all this that I ended up going to the hospital, to the emergency room one night.

Nathan Hinckley [00:22:07] I really didn't know why, but I kept, have, I kept trying to make, you know, the, the church work, the, the things that I had learned. But now I'm seeing that this isn't the way that it actually is. The church is admitting this, and they didn't teach that before. And I. I just had a constant mental battle, which I now know is cognitive dissonance, but I didn't know at the time. And I thought I was going crazy. And so I told my wife to take me to the hospital, and she actually took a picture of me hooked up to a bunch of wires and everything at the doctor.

Nathan Hinckley [00:22:47] And I'm sure he thought that I had overdosed or something like that. So he does all these tests, and after a couple hours, he comes back and he says, hey, you're clean, man. I'm like, I know I'm clean.

Nathan Hinckley [00:23:01] And he gives my wife some pills or something. He says to, you know, have him take this. He'll be fine. But, you know, that happened twice. John is just trying to. Trying to fight against what was so obvious that this stuff just doesn't add up anymore.

Nathan Hinckley [00:23:18] And so, you know, that took three or four or five months of really looking at each part, part of what I would have called my testimony and figuring out, do I still believe that? And what is the church? Yeah, there's the picture.

John Dehlin [00:23:34] So here's a photo of the picture you sent me. Are you saying that your faith crisis manifested in physical symptoms of distress and illness, and that this is a picture of you admitting yourself to the hospital to try and figure out if there was a physical. If you were experiencing some sort of, you know, condition, when in reality it was just the distress caused by your faith crisis? Is that what you're telling us?

Nathan Hinckley [00:24:07] That's exactly what I'm saying. I've never been in the hospital for anything, John. I don't have, you know, stress or anxiety or any of those things. But I would lay awake at night and I would. I'd get an hour of sleep, and I'd be back and I'd be typing, and I was starting to write things and figure out, what do I believe? And I had sent messages back then to the stake president and met with him back then and sending stuff to my parents and just lost for so long, would just sit there and hold my wife. Just. We would just, you know, hold each other tight all night long, you know, and just basically shaking from what we thought we knew all along, finding out that it's not that.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] So you're saying, you know, if you were to try to give someone a sense for why it was so difficult for you, who maybe has never been Mormon or never been part of a High demand religion. Why? What was so severe about it that it was manifesting as a serious physical, medical condition? Other than just that, you know, your worldview being different than what you thought. Can you explain maybe a little bit more about why that became so distressing for you?

Nathan Hinckley [00:25:38] Well, I honestly don't exactly know why. I, I know that I was, I, I felt like I was mentally just, just racing all the time. Well, what about this? What about that? Well, what about this time that you felt, you know, the spirit or what about that time? And how do you explain this? And to just constant, just constantly trying to put a round peg in a square hole.

John Dehlin [00:26:07] Were you worried about how family or friends would react if they found out? I mean, one thing that's particularly relevant about being a Mormon bishop is you're viewed in the community as exemplary. Everyone tends to look up to you, respect you. Maybe they even built their testimony on your testimony or your leadership. And so there's the friends and family element, there's the work element, but there's also the fear of what will happen when the people that knew you as a bishop find out that you've, quote, fallen and lost your faith when you used to be a leader in the community religiously.

Nathan Hinckley [00:26:50] That's right. I had told you that this particular area that we live, it's a small ward. Everybody knows everyone, everybody knew me, including in the stake, you know, on the high council and just, that's a, that's a lot of weight to, to disappoint your parents. Of course, my wife's parents, my grandmother. To disappoint people. I've always. John. Been kind of a loudmouth. Yeah. And in, in high school, I stood up in front of a, I was in a, in a singing group and we, we were at a Baptist church and they said something about Mormons and I stood up right in front of the whole Baptist church and said, you know, you, you've got that wrong.

Nathan Hinckley [00:27:37] And if you ever want to get your facts straight, why don't you give me a call? And, you know, walked out. I mean, I, I've been kind of on the front lines out here and, and so to, to now realize that all of the things from the 90s, all of the anti Mormon literature from the 90s, I find now on the church website. Maybe not all, but a lot of it.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] So challenges to the Book of Mormons, authenticity issues with the Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith's treasure digging, you know, the use of folk magic, like a peep stone in a hat, you know, the racism that's found in the Book of Mormon and then elsewhere, the connections between the Mormon Temple ceremony and the Masonic Lodge are, are those an example of the types of things you're learning about that you used to think were anti Mormon lies to then discover that are actually have become factual history that the Church acknowledges?

Nathan Hinckley [00:28:42] That's right. That's exactly what I'd say. Along with what we had discussed with polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:28:48] Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [00:28:52] So basically that takes us, I think, up until. Well, let me also say that my wife and I have been completely unified in all of this, which I understand that that's not always the case. And Phil. So my heart goes out to those couples and individuals who don't have that. But we, we as a family, as my wife and my kids, we have never been more unified than we are. And that was, that was one of these points that I'll probably bring up in a second with my discussions with the Stake President, but we are doing is better than, than ever. But certainly my relationship with, you know, my parents and some other friends and, and other, you know, close relatives and things is obviously not, not quite as good as it was to say the least.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] Okay.

Going Public and Speaking Out on Social Media

Nathan Hinckley [00:29:58] So anyways, that brings us up, I think until about a couple months ago when I decided that I just wanted to be more, more open and honest with, with people about what the things that I'm reading and finding out.

Nathan Hinckley [00:30:18] And I realized that that approach is not for everyone. And I don't know why that's the approach that I took. For example, when my sister left, she left completely quietly. Matter of fact, she posted one little thing online about just a, just a nice little poem or something about how, you know, God is in everything or something. And she got hounded. She got, it was a, it was a, just a lynch mob from, from the ward, from the, from the family, from people in our old ward growing up. How can you do this? You know, and she, she did nothing wrong. And I decided, you know what?

Nathan Hinckley [00:31:04] That's not, that's not going to be my method. And so I started to, I started to post things that I found out and I started posting about profits. I. One of my posts, and they're all public. One of them is. I called it what happened to Nathan? Because I kept hearing, hey, what happened to you? You know, So I said, okay, well, this is what happened to me.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] Are you saying you stopped, you stopped attending your local ward?

Nathan Hinckley [00:31:36] Oh, yeah, yeah, we, we stopped attending, I guess about a year ago.

John Dehlin [00:31:41] Okay. And so, yeah, people, since you were the bishop, there's Going to be people saying, hey, where's the bishop? Right, Right. Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [00:31:51] So I, I probably have put out 15 or or so different short, you know, Facebook posts. Nothing that I think is too groundbreaking. Just my thoughts, basically. This is what I was taught. This is now what the church is teaching. And what do I think about it?

John Dehlin [00:32:18] I'm just going to share a few comments. Natalie writes, these high demand religions can cause physical and mental harm. Thank you for sharing. Natalie writes, I had a heart attack and it was a way that my body was telling me that I needed to make a major change in my job, in my work life balance, and in my stress levels. So that's some more validation. Andrea writes, I relate to the way he was feeling. My whole life was turned upside down when I found out the truth about Mormonism. This is a great comment. Errol White writes, your body knows it sends us distressed warnings.

John Dehlin [00:32:59] And yeah, so those are just a few quotes I want to ask everyone. We've got a great live audience here of over a thousand people. We would love it if everyone could please like this episode and subscribe to the podcast.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] Because, yeah, that's how this gets shared far and wide on the Internet. So please take the time, if you can, to like and subscribe to this channel. Okay, so anyway, all right, so you start. This is something that's actually important. Bishop I do think in Mormonism, people have so much fear and in other high demand religions, people have so much fear to speak up. And so if they lose their faith, they. I think the two most common reactions are either to fake it and hide it so that nobody knows, or to just fade away quietly. But speaking up, I think is really rare because of the fear of the consequences.

John Dehlin [00:34:04] My viewers and listeners will know that I was excommunicated for speaking up. Many, many Mormons have been excommunicated, kicked out of the church just for speaking up on social media. We've interviewed many of them in the past. And then if you've been a bishop, that's even more significant because again, you held a very high level of responsibility and sometimes the church is harder on you, the higher your reputation or the higher your status is within the church. So I'm just curious, Bishop Nathan Hinckley, what was it that made you feel like you wanted to risk the consequences of speaking out as a Mormon bishop? You know, against or at least exploring doubts or disbelief publicly as a Mormon bishop? What made you feel like you wanted to do that and was worth the risk?

Nathan Hinckley [00:35:01] Yeah, so I think I was going to say I Guess I'm not worried about, number one, the repercussions. I honestly just want to speak what I feel is true and basically let the chips fall where they may. I do not want to pull anyone from the church or hurt anyone's testimony.

Nathan Hinckley [00:35:28] I do believe that people should be informed, that they should have informed consent to the things that. To, to what they're giving, their, their covenanting, to give their life to, to the church and to the building of the kingdom. So I think that they should be informed that things should not be kept from them.

Nathan Hinckley [00:35:54] Also, another thought, John, with. I had mentioned my sister five or six years ago. She had one little thing that she had voiced opposition to. It was she had. She wasn't so crazy about the, the mall that the church decided to build. And she told a couple friends that, I don't know, I don't know about that. She was pulled into a disciplinary council.

Nathan Hinckley [00:36:23] I guess it would have been the step before that all over this one thing and I just said, you know what I'm not going to do, I'm. I'm going to speak out and whatever happens, happens. And so I wasn't going to be bullied or, or, you know, told to be quiet. That's not exactly my style.

John Dehlin [00:36:45] Makes sense. Yeah. I mean, the church does teach, do what is right, let the consequence follow. So in some sense we learn and it teaches to be honest. Right. So speaking up in honesty, showing courage is actually a very Mormon thing to do, ironically.

Nathan Hinckley [00:37:02] I agree.

Topics Nathan Wrote About and Reactions

John Dehlin [00:37:04] Okay. Do you want to talk about. Maybe just pick five or seven of the topics that you wrote about just to give people a sense for the types of conversations you were having online.

Nathan Hinckley [00:37:18] Sure. So the first one, I think we've already talked about most of the what happened to Nathan post, just. It was, it was my upbringing in the church. But. I'll read this one part from it. This is later on after I got through telling about mission and being a bishop and everything.

Nathan Hinckley [00:37:47] I remember thinking to myself, if the church is true, then it should be able to stand on its own two feet against the criticism and claims against it. I fully expected that it would. And I decided to look at what the problems were. I started on the church website.

Nathan Hinckley [00:38:03] I quickly noticed that what was anti Mormon literature in the 90s is now listed as true on the church website. I was devastated and met with my stake president about it. He agreed that there were many things that the Church has admitted to that is not well known and that they were going to try to get the information out in a controlled way. I'm not sure what they have done to do this, but I feel like I am helping them by being vocal online.

Nathan Hinckley [00:38:31] So that was, that was kind of one of the first ones I started writing. One other that I would like to bring up was I called it naive or nuanced. And basically what I am getting at here, and surprisingly when I'm. I know we haven't got to my meeting with the Stake president yet, but he also said that he agrees that members should be much more nuanced. And you know, I didn't even know what that meant a year ago.

Nathan Hinckley [00:39:08] I was such a black and white true or false kind of a guy that I realized. So basically in this Facebook post I talk about how there's a lot of people leaving the church and that the church is in a crossroads and that there's so many different problems to contend with, which we've talked about a lot of them already, from racism to plagiarism in the Book of Mormon to the, the mall and the shell companies and anyways, all these things. So I, and then I say members essentially have to make a choice. And I think they fall into two categories, clueless or nuanced. Clueless sounds like an insult, but I don't mean it that way.

Nathan Hinckley [00:39:55] More like naive. I didn't even know what it meant to be nuanced a year ago, but now I think it's the only way to stay in. So in other words, when I say that I was clueless, I still believe this perfect picture that the church had taught me that was a kind of a whitewashed history, that it was black and white. True or false, it was the only true church on the face of the earth.

Nathan Hinckley [00:40:22] And actually Gordon B. Hinckley has famously had said, each of us has to face the matter. Either the church is true or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the church and kingdom of God or it is nothing. And that was from April 2003.

Nathan Hinckley [00:40:40] So basically I get into the fact that. To be you either are going to not know of the problems or you're going to be able to write them off or see them in some nuanced ways. And so I say this is an increasingly growing group to be in this group. You learn to say, well, I don't believe everything the prophet says or I don't feel that applies to me, or I see it differently or that prophet must be. Must have been speaking as a man when he said that.

Nathan Hinckley [00:41:17] And so sometimes this is referred to as Cafeteria Mormon or buffet Mormon because they Pick and choose the parts they believe. Let me move on to probably a little bit more important topics. This one I called I am Spiritual damaged goods.

Nathan Hinckley [00:41:37] And this one is one that the Stake president wanted to talk about quite a bit. What do I mean by damaged goods? I feel like I don't belong anywhere anymore. I could go to the Baptist church down the street, but I honestly still have a lot of holdover beliefs from Mormonism.

Nathan Hinckley [00:42:01] I talk about in here how almost everything that we call a Mormon belief is taken from somewhere else, whether it was Alexander Campbell, Solomon Spalding, Swedenborg, or even the Quran. But that I've told a few people that when Mormonism went out the door, it took as much of Christianity with it as it could. And of course, people want to say, oh, what do you mean you don't believe in, you know, Jesus anymore? And I say that, no, that's not exactly what I'm saying.

Nathan Hinckley [00:42:37] But let's see. As a side note, let me just say from what I understood, okay, we won't get into that. So what? I. I work with my dad a lot on some construction stuff. And I asked him the other day, I said, dad, if you knew the church was not true, would you still go? And he said, yeah, I would, because I see a lot of good fruits.

Nathan Hinckley [00:43:02] And so I thought about that, and the next day I said, I want to change the question. I said, what if the church was harming you or your family? Would you still attend? And his answer wasn't so quick to be found. And so what I wanted to point out is how the church has harmed me.

Nathan Hinckley [00:43:25] As a devout Mormon, I felt like I had a testimony in relationship with Christ. I felt a sense of superiority because we had all the truth, whereas other churches only had a little. We had the priesthood and the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, whereas other churches just had flashes from time to time. The Mormon Jesus was one that approved of an insanely rich investment corporation while spending relatively little for the poor.

Nathan Hinckley [00:43:52] He was one that approved of Nephi cutting the head off of a drunk guy in order to get the scriptures. He was the one that sent an angel with a drawn sword to command Joseph to start polygamy. He was the one that inspired prophets to contradict each other. He was the one that denied the priesthood to the African race. He was the one that denied children of gay parents to be baptized. And then he's also the one that reversed the policy three years later. He was the one that is offended when we use the term Mormon, but had previously told us to Be proud of it.

Nathan Hinckley [00:44:26] He is the one that restored his true church to the earth, but did it in a way where almost all of the most important parts are so easily questioned and contradicted. To be fair, he was also the one that drowned armies in the sea and many other things in the Bible. He was starting to become, quite frankly, a mean and confused guy.

Nathan Hinckley [00:44:49] I now see how people are so easily persuaded, how quick people are to accept something that they would not typically accept just because it comes from their church leaders. So you know, my dad had said, you know, I just hope that you can go back to believing as fervently in Jesus as you ever have and I don't care which church you go to.

Nathan Hinckley [00:45:12] And I just said, dad, I wish it were that easy that I understand you shouldn't throw the baby out with the b bath water. And I'm trying to separate God and Jesus from who they truly are, from just these man made stories. But for now I am damaged goods.

Nathan Hinckley [00:45:33] And then one last one, John. Well there was one that talked about I can fix the Mormon Church and I think that raised a few eyebrows. Basically the whole point of this one is if the church would stop claiming that the prophets speak for God, then I think almost every or every, every problem the church has can be written off as it was just men doing the best they can in a sense.

Nathan Hinckley [00:46:07] So basically in order to fix the Mormon Church, we stop claiming that the leaders literally speak for God or have any exclusive authority that is only found within the church. If this were the case, every problem can be simply chalked up to he was just an imperfect man doing the best he could.

Nathan Hinckley [00:46:27] Of course at the end of that in into that Facebook post, I point out while this could fix the church, I believe it would also cease to be. People would realize that they can be just as close to God by taking their family to the mountains on a Sunday morning than to a building. They could focus more on how they feel God is speaking to them instead of what the current things being said from the prophets are, thus minimizing their usefulness and diminishing their power. They could find ways to bless the poor and the needy themselves rather than give money to a multi billion dollar corporation.

Nathan Hinckley [00:47:14] Oh, I should probably. No, I'll leave that one for anybody that wants to read it. So the last one, John, I had put the truth has set me free. And of course I know that when Jesus said that that he was probably referring to sin, death and condemnation.

Nathan Hinckley [00:47:39] But when I think of the truth has set me free, I think about how I am now free to open my mind and my the possibility of any teaching that I find interesting that I'm not. I'm not. I don't have to rely solely on just the things that the prophets are telling me. And so I go through and talk about how this truth has made me free. It says, what do I mean? I have no boundaries. I am free to investigate anything I find interest in, whether it be alternate interpretations of scriptures and healing through positive thinking, benefits of alcohol and communion with other people as Jesus taught proper consideration and usefulness of prophets or scriptures.

Nathan Hinckley [00:48:33] I am also free to consider more agnostic ideas. Similarly, I no longer condemn ideas that I have yet to consider or think seriously about, whether it be other religions altogether or concepts such as reincarnation or tarot cards or the benefits of positive energy through gemstones or crystals. You know, things that I may have mocked before. I. I have an open mind. I'm free to consider anything that that I that I find interesting. And I think that that is freedom that this truth has set me free.

Nathan Hinckley [00:49:16] I say that I now believe that there can be truth found in all things. That there is not just one path back to God. No need to post John 14:6 to me. I believe that the most important thing we can do is learn to respect and love each other. I know that some people don't find my recent posts loving, but they are. They are based in just telling the truth and let people decide for themselves. I am perfectly happy with anyone choosing whatever path they feel is best for them. However, I claim the same right.

Nathan Hinckley [00:49:46] I feel that if there's a separate set of rules for me because of where I stand in my beliefs, especially for my kids, then I will raise hell in a loving way. Of course, these are some of the ways that I feel the truth has set me free.

Nathan Hinckley [00:50:00] So anyways, John, I'm not a writer. My brother's a songwriter. My daughter is an incredible writer. She's got some poems in here, one that maybe I would love to share with you before you do.

John Dehlin [00:50:14] Before you do. I don't wanna disagree with you, but I'll just say what I think is meaningful and powerful to people is just people sharing their authentic beliefs from the heart. And you're doing that and I think it's powerful. And so I just wanna give my vote to say that what you're sharing is deeply meaningful and impactful and that's what really reaches people. Not being a great writer, but not having anything meaningful or authentic to say. So I don't mean to disagree with you there before your daughter's quote. Let's put a pit in that.

John Dehlin [00:50:50] I'm gonna just show you a few other essays that I found on your Facebook page, and I'm not gonna ask you to read from them, but just if you could just share the basic gist of what you were saying, and I'll give a little bit of context before I jump in.

John Dehlin [00:51:08] What people should know is that one of the main roles of a Mormon bishop is to uphold and support and even enforce Mormon doctrine and Mormon practices. And, you know, just even a few years ago, just for one single Facebook post or Instagram post or tweet, you could get excommunicated, even sometimes for saying benign things. We interviewed someone on Mormon Stories podcast years ago that said they didn't believe in DNC132, the polygamy part, and that got them a disciplinary council just saying that they no longer believed in polygamy, let alone criticizing or questioning the church. So the fact that you're a Mormon bishop who speaks very publicly about very important Mormon practices or doctrines makes the story with your stake president, which you're going to tell in a bit even more significant.

John Dehlin [00:52:02] But what I'm going to do is just show a few of your posts and just have you very, very briefly summarize, if you don't mind, what your point is. So there's one post on does God really need your money?

John Dehlin [00:52:17] So there it's talking about tithing. And then up a little bit more. You've got, you know, seven problems with LDS tithing. So I'm going to ask you about, like, eight different essays just for you to summarize. But can you summarize your concerns with Mormon tithing just at a high level so people can know?

Nathan Hinckley [00:52:38] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] And I. And I'm not asking for detailed. Just. Just you can summarize, you know, a paragraph or two, you know.

Nathan Hinckley [00:52:45] Well, the things I found interesting with tithing is, number one, when it was instituted, that it was. It was taught in a way that if you have means, if you have the ability to do it. And then when they published, when they published the written version, they omitted that part and suggested that it would be a requirement of everyone and not just if you have means. That was one point. And the other is that one of our prophets had said, the time will come when the Lord will no longer require tithing of its members. And so I'm saying, you know, we're worth what? I just saw something before we went on today about $49 billion, something another we have no.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] The Mormon Church is estimated to be worth $250 billion. That's billion with the b.

Nathan Hinckley [00:53:41] Okay, so do we have enough? And has that time come? And if not, why not? And you know, that's really, was the point of that post is why did it change from being just for those who can't, who, who have means, to being required of everyone? And how come, how come we don't

John Dehlin [00:54:06] have enough required of everyone, no matter how poor?

Nathan Hinckley [00:54:09] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:54:10] Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [00:54:10] Right.

John Dehlin [00:54:11] Yeah. Okay.

Nathan Hinckley [00:54:12] And then, and then I get into a little bit of, you know, building the mall and owning, what is it, 2% of Florida's land mass. And, you know, just all of these things, like when, when are the members going to be told about some of this stuff? I had no idea the church owns hunt hunting reserves. Yeah, reserves. And, and that the church is the biggest land, the largest landowner of Nebraska. Like, I had no idea of this. Why are the members not told this stuff?

John Dehlin [00:54:45] Yeah, all right, that's really, that's really helpful. Okay, let's just go to some others. You have a post that says, is the word of wisdom wise? And very controversially, there's you with what appears to be a mixed drink. I don't know if there's alcohol in it, but to see a Mormon bishop holding what appears to be a mixed drink, that's pretty hardcore. Tell us what, what's wrong with the word of wisdom? What's wrong with not drinking coffee or tea, tobacco or alcohol? What's wrong with that?

Nathan Hinckley [00:55:18] So you're right, that is a mixed drink. I have not learned, I have not learned to enjoy certain things. I, I, I can't drink a beer. It's just I found a couple little, little things that I like, but really, honestly, not really.

Nathan Hinckley [00:55:37] I had never tried alcohol in 44 years and had sort of judged other people for doing it. And I talk about that a lot, but I basically said, you know, why do I even, why is this that important? And I go through different things. Of course Jesus drank, Joseph drank.

Nathan Hinckley [00:56:01] These are all points in that. Of course Brigham drank and owned distilleries. And I talk about how in the church handbook that you can get a doctor's note for medical marijuana. But that doesn't make sense. Why a doctor can sort of supersede the word of wisdom.

Nathan Hinckley [00:56:22] The other point with alcohol. It's my understanding that when polygamy was taken from the Saints, they wanted another way to be a peculiar people that they adopted. This is, I take this from the church, from the church website that they adopted this new doctrine as a requirement to enter into the temple. So, in a sense, when we. When we live the word of wisdom, by absolutely abstaining from those things, in a sense, we are saying we're going to do this because we can't live polygamy anymore. That's the way I read it.

Nathan Hinckley [00:57:01] There's some other things that just doesn't make sense. You can drink soda and sugary soda all day long, but a coffee or whatever would keep you out of the temple. And then the other part that I would just point out is I've seen some benefits of it. I have sat with a couple friends, a few friends here recently, and we've burned up four or five hours.

Nathan Hinckley [00:57:30] Just what I would call communing with each other. And this is what my sister talks a little bit about, a lot better than I can. But when Jesus instituted this communion, it was a way to form a community, you know, to commune one with another. And consequently, alcohol was part of it. And so I had always, you know, judged and turned my nose down on anyone that would.

Nathan Hinckley [00:57:59] That would drink or whatever. And now I just don't think that it's as big of a deal. However, you won't catch me probably with a beer, but maybe a mixed drink or two.

John Dehlin [00:58:11] Got it. Okay. The next one I want to talk about, you've got one called Modesty Schmodesty.

Nathan Hinckley [00:58:20] Modesty. How about that for a title, John?

John Dehlin [00:58:23] I love it. And you've got photos for those who are just listening. You've got a photo of your wife in a dress that's showing her shoulders and, you know, a little bit of her upper chest and neck. Of course, that would be viewed as immodest in a Mormon context. But then next to it, you've got a photo of your wife in a bikini in a very playful pose. Now, that's very shocking by Mormon standards, especially in 2024. What's wrong with, quote, the church's standards around modesty? What do you. What are you saying about that?

Nathan Hinckley [00:58:54] Okay. This is actually a biggie for us. My wife has always worn garments exactly the way she was told to. When. When I was bishop, there was multiple times that she would say, well, how come they're not wearing this? And, you know, I think. I think the women maybe tend to observe these things, maybe more than men at times, but she always did exactly what she was supposed to do. If she was going to the lake, she would change somewhere at the lake or whatever. She would drive in her garments that were supposed to protect her. Of Course, now Elder Oak says it's not a protection, but she had always lived that way and would not be caught in a bikini.

Nathan Hinckley [00:59:50] That's the way she was raised. And so in that post, I talk about my wife lost some considerable weight after going through her childbearing years and things like that. And I was proud of her. She was also kind of being a health coach to some people in a. In a health program she was doing. And so I started taking pictures and. And I noticed that that was kind of what you do. You show. You know, you show a bikini, or at least like the one picture you showed, she's. She's completely covered, but not by garment standards.

Nathan Hinckley [01:00:37] And so that whole Facebook post is just the way that we in the church judge one another. When the church makes a rule that when you're endowed, you always wear this. As bishop, I don't know how many times that I read the paragraph, the garment must not be removed for activities which might reasonably be done with the garment worn beneath the clothing, even such activities as working in the yard, etc. Etc.

Nathan Hinckley [01:01:07] Well, that's the way we always lived. And. We. I go through this whole thing about modest is hottest and how that's a bunch of garbage, really, that no one actually believes that. That. That's just something that we say in the church.

Nathan Hinckley [01:01:32] Basically. My point with that whole post is that the church should not be telling people what to wear once they do. It gives the members something to judge each other by. And I would say the same thing with the word of wisdom. Once they make those rules, those commandments, those whatever, now we have something to judge each other by. And I give an example of how my wife was judged from. I'm not going to say from who, but they said, I just could not see those posts of you in a bikini. You were flaunting to everyone that you weren't living the gospel. Now, keep in mind, John, this was at the lake and she was in a bikini, but all of a sudden that was flaunting that she was not living the gospel.

Nathan Hinckley [01:02:20] This is. This is the way that certain members take that. And it should not be that way. We should not be telling people what to wear. We need to get out of the clothing business. And that's the point of that post.

John Dehlin [01:02:37] Excellent. All right, thanks for entertaining a few of these. I've just got a couple more. You've got a photo of a baby kind of on life support, and you're asking the question, can Mormon men heal the sick? And I think that's an important Thing, especially as a bishop, you're kind of the leader of the priesthood in your ward. And Mormons teach that Mormon men, if they have the priesthood, have the power of healing. That's one of the benefits of having the Mormon priesthood is that other people can't heal the sick, but Mormon men, if they're righteous, can. What's wrong with that teaching? Bishop Nathan Hinckley.

Nathan Hinckley [01:03:14] So that picture is actually my son Hyrum, and he was born seven weeks premature. And so he was hooked up to everything there. And we reached our hands through the little incubator, whatever they call it, and gave him a blessing. It was a, honestly, a very spiritual, very humbling time.

Nathan Hinckley [01:03:39] However, as I thought of this whole thing with priesthood blessings. So I say, can Mormon men heal the sick? Yes, sort of, but so can you. And so I basically talk about how there's some problems with the whole priesthood blessing thought.

Nathan Hinckley [01:04:03] In one way, the house always wins. No matter what happens after a blessing, the church has its explanation ready. Either bad things just happened to good people if things took a turn for the worse and Jesus needed them on the other side, or in the case that someone may get better that they were healed and praise Jesus and let's see. I say that while our friends might be.

Nathan Hinckley [01:04:31] Oh, I say this is actually very traumatizing teaching when we go on and on about one person being healed and praise Jesus while our friends might be planning a funeral, we know we've done both for our kids. So we, we buried one of our kids, John, from a premature, from a stillborn birth. So we know what it's like to, to be on both sides of that.

Nathan Hinckley [01:05:02] I talk about how Elder Oaks said the least important part of the blessing is the words, which I don't think many members realize that I have some close people to me that will actually take notes during a blessing.

Nathan Hinckley [01:05:19] I just talk about, just. And I mentioned this to the stake president every weekend. The, the apostles, the Lord's apostles are in a different place on this planet. And instead of being where they should be, they're in churches and meeting houses and sitting in, in offices.

Nathan Hinckley [01:05:44] Why are these men not at the children's hospital? Why are they not blessing and healing children? And I point out that it just doesn't make sense, John. So I say this is the Mormon belief. This is my take. My take is that I believe in every religion or no religion, there is a possibility to have what seems like an unexplainable healing. I've watched many videos of testimonials of other faiths Claiming this same power.

Nathan Hinckley [01:06:18] I do not totally dismiss this, although in many of these cases I believe that it's either a misdiagnosis or it might be that they, due to their positive thinking, they brought about a change. The mind is a powerful thing. Just look up healing through positive thinking. So do I believe Mormon men can heal? I guess so. But so can Mormon women and Baptists and Jews and atheists. We do not have this exclusive power in the church. A father in Utah has no more ability to heal his sick daughter than a mother in Africa. What a pompous claim. If you think so. There's more to that.

John Dehlin [01:07:02] Powerful. No, that's powerful.

Nathan Hinckley [01:07:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:04] All right, I'll just do a couple more. So many folks who are Mormon will know that it's generally taught that R rated movies are evil or bad. We within the Mormon Church, that's how we all grew up. We didn't see our movies or if we did, we felt super guilty. What's wrong with prohibiting R rated movies? Bishop Nathan Hinckley.

Nathan Hinckley [01:07:26] Well, I think actually what the answer to that goes back to the same thing with garments and the same thing with the alcohol or the word of wisdom. It's just, it's a rule to judge each other by. And I point out in here that many of my Mormon friends had asked me, hey, have you seen this particular movie? And I was like, no, we're not supposed to watch that.

Nathan Hinckley [01:07:50] I point out how other countries don't even have a rating system. And so why are we told what to watch in the USA but other Mormons aren't? That didn't make sense to me. Why does God put the Motion Picture association in charge of what I'm allowed to watch anyways?

Nathan Hinckley [01:08:10] And then I point out how I never watched Passion of the Christ because that was rated R and that I was told that I don't even have to think about if I should watch that. The prophet has already answered that question.

Nathan Hinckley [01:08:24] You know, I say that this actually was a bit of a shelf item for me because there was one movie that was rated R that I saw and I absolutely loved it. And it was called A Time to Kill.

Nathan Hinckley [01:08:40] And in that movie I learned a proper view of the. I acknowledged the racism that is so prevalent in our society. And I don't know if you know that movie, but it really taught me to call, call out that racism, to not play, be a part of it. And so I was actually, that's actually one of my favorite movies, but it was rated R. And I remember when my daughter Kaylee came to me one day and said, dad, can I watch a rated R movie? I said, yeah, you can. You can watch this one. And I put on A Time to Kill.

Nathan Hinckley [01:09:25] And I love the movie and I love what it taught me. Similarly, Saving Private Ryan kind of taught me to be. To have patriotism and gratitude for our freedoms. What I had said about A Time to Kill is this movie helped me tear down false and evil ideas that were so prevalent in our society regarding race and racism.

Nathan Hinckley [01:09:49] And so then I mentioned Saving Private Ryan. Ryan. But. And then I just finished and saying it sounds like a little thing, but I guess when you have the understanding that God is telling the prophet what to teach the world and you purposefully oppose it, then I guess it becomes a moment of cognitive dissonance that sits on a shelf.

Nathan Hinckley [01:10:12] And so then I had just asked, what movies have I missed out on? And so everybody gave me all of their rated R recommendations.

John Dehlin [01:10:21] No, there's so many great movies like Schindler's List and Saving Private Ryan and Crazy Glory. There's just so many incredible movies with really important messages the Mormons of all people really need to hear and to limit people to G and PG&PG 13. Movies that sometimes are vapid or senseless or even portray really superficial or toxic values. It is a significant part of our culture and. And a really important thing to highlight. So it's fun that you're highlighting it. Let me ask you for three quick ones. We'll just do three quick ones and then we'll get to your stake President's Reactions. You have an essay called can youn Work youk Way to Heaven? Summarize really quickly what you're saying there.

Nathan Hinckley [01:11:09] So on that. On that one, I was wanting to point out the difference between what Gordon B. Hinckley and Russell M. Nelson said. Gordon B. Hinckley said, in moments of quiet, we reflect upon his matchless life and his unconditional love for each of us. I say I love how Hinckley said his love is unconditional.

Nathan Hinckley [01:11:34] And then Nelson said in. On. On June 17 on social media account, Jesus asked us to love one another as he has loved us. Is this possible? Can our love for others really approach divine love? Yes, it can. The pure love of Christ is granted to all who seek and qualify for it. Such love includes service and requires obedience. And I talk about how I don't love how Nelson says that you have to qualify for his love. In other words, work for it. And that's kind of what that. That's kind of what that's about is basically, is God's love unconditional or are there conditions to it?

Nathan Hinckley [01:12:18] And I mentioned how I don't love the song Families Can Be Together Forever. It's one of the most commonly sang hymns of the church. But the word can suggests that it's only possible if the family does not fall away.

Nathan Hinckley [01:12:34] And as long as the family does not do things that they should not do, the word can becomes can't when those things happened. And that's not good.

John Dehlin [01:12:45] That's so good. That's a great point. All right, you've got one on why you hate improvements in the Mormon Church. Why in the heck would you hate improvements in the Mormon Church? Sounds like you would want improvements. If you're going to list the problems with it, then you would want improvements. What's wrong with improvements?

Nathan Hinckley [01:13:02] So I mentioned two two short things, just how the youth standards have changed. The, you know, the the for the Strength of Youth pamphlet used to be this big and now it's this big. And they're not telling you every single thing. So that's a good thing. Missions have changed.

John Dehlin [01:13:19] You can call home more than twice.

Nathan Hinckley [01:13:20] You can call home and do things. But really the point of that one was this whole bit on weddings. I didn't get into my profession. I build homes and and do remodeling. But I also have a videography business where I do a lot of weddings which are almost exclusively non Mormon.

Nathan Hinckley [01:13:43] But I get into how you used to not be able to do a ring ceremony or get married civilly or you would have to wait the year to go to the temple. So it was basically a punishment. I mentioned how a very dear friend of mine who I know is watching right now was I'll just read this part. Even though the civil ceremonies and ring ceremonies were expressly forbidden for years, Mitt Romney was able to do it nevertheless and still go immediately after to the temple to be sealed. My dear friend who is similar in to the ages, Mitt was denied this opportunity and therefore her own mother and actually no one from her family was able to attend any part of her wedding.

Nathan Hinckley [01:14:36] Her last name just was not well known enough I guess. It is a heartbreaking story. So this whole thing with the weddings is an absolute disaster. And I actually as bishop I wrote the Stake President a pretty lengthy email acknowledging and shining a light on why are we doing this? Why are we allowing people to start their lives in this time when there's so much division, especially if there's a non member family. But not only that, everyone has at least some loved one that they would love to be with them in the temple. So of course we're talking about, I guess, a couple different things, the not being able to attend that you have to have your temple recommend and does that, Is that really necessary?

Nathan Hinckley [01:15:30] And then also if you, if you do the ring ceremonies and the civil ceremonies first. Yeah, you're punished and have to wait a year. And now they've changed it, you know, hooray. You know, it's great now they've changed it, but it just falls short for me, John. I mean, it is good, but why was it that way to begin with? Why has so many families, so many different people went through this agonizing experience not having their loved ones at their wedding or whatever?

Nathan Hinckley [01:16:06] And related to that, why are some people allowed to do it? Like Mitt Romney was apparently allowed to get sealed immediately after his civil ceremony. So it's just, it's nice when things get better. But for some of us that have been around a little while, we're sit wondering, well, why did we have to do it that way?

John Dehlin [01:16:33] Yeah, if it's from God, why did it change when there's no real good reason for it having ever been the way it was? And then where's the apology? Where's the acknowledgment so that those who had to suffer through the hard stuff, you know, get some sort of behavior that the church expects. The church expects us all to repent, which means to confess our sins, to apologize, to make restitution. And the church just doesn't model that when it makes mistakes, it gets things wrong. It doesn't atone like it expects us to. And that's a problem. The last one I'll have you talk about is a really.

The Race and Priesthood Question

John Dehlin [01:17:12] Before we jump into your stake, President, it's a really big one. You asked the question, is God racist? And you've got a picture of a black couple, Mormon couple in front of the temple. That's a serious accusation. Is Mormon God racist? And is the Mormon Church racist? What are you trying to say there?

Nathan Hinckley [01:17:33] So I feel like the church has two major problems, polygamy and race. Of course, it's got quite a few others, but with race, the two main problems with the race are of course, the ban that was lifted in 1978, the priesthood ban for the African race.

Nathan Hinckley [01:18:01] There are hundreds of quotes and teachings that are quite frankly, just embarrassing. Also, I've learned that the church opposed the civil rights movement, a movement that they actually vilified. The whole thing, I just point out, is Just simply embarrassing.

Nathan Hinckley [01:18:24] And that the church leaders basically put the blame on God. They say, well, well, why'd y' all have this ban? And they say, well, we don't know. We don't know why God did it. It's his fault. He's the racist one.

Nathan Hinckley [01:18:38] And that's the problem, to say that, that God is racist. He's the one that did the ban. So that's the, the, the African, the, the African race priesthood band. And then the whole premise of the Book of Mormon is that there are two groups of people, Nephites and Lamanites. That the Nephites were the righteous group with the lighter skinned group. They were labeled as white and delightsome, while the Lamanites are dark and loathsome and cursed with dark skin.

Nathan Hinckley [01:19:14] I've heard Mormon apologists say, oh, maybe it was a tattoo or something, which is gaslighting. For years and years we've been taught that is skin. So here's a President Kimball quote. The Book of Mormon tells us that the Indian has dark skin, but he has a promise that through faithfulness that they all again might become white and delightsome.

Nathan Hinckley [01:19:40] And we could list a thousand different other quotes, but honestly, my jaw just hits the floor at some of them when they talk about interracial marriage, when they talk about generations getting lighter and lighter and lighter as time goes on, or even the missionary work in the 1800s to lighten the seed of the Indians.

Nathan Hinckley [01:20:03] The problem with this, John, is that if I show a thousand quotes to someone and say, well, what do you say about this? They're going to say either he was just speaking as a man and not as the prophet, or they were just a product of their time and that everyone was racist. And while I agree that these men were not speaking for the Lord and that they were actually simply giving their own opinion, that excuse falls a little flat for me. And to point out that everyone is racist is in fact not accurate. There were some people who spoke out against racism and led movements, but those people were vilified from our church leaders.

Nathan Hinckley [01:20:46] I do talk about how the church has made some improvements, but it's time to make some changes. We need to change the Book of Mormon. We did it with the, with the introduction. Why not with the actual text?

Nathan Hinckley [01:21:06] We were recently told in General Conference that one of the purposes of our prophet is to see around corners and to warn us of things to come. After all, that's what's implied by the term prophet, to prophesy. I can't help but notice that time and time Again, our leaders seem to lag behind in their teaching, not ahead. And we just wait to see what things we are being told today that a future prophet will say. Oh, no, he was just speaking as a man and not as the prophet. I don't think we should blame God for man's shortcomings.

John Dehlin [01:21:45] Love it. All right, well, really quickly, I'm on YouTube and I'm noticing that we've only got a few hundred likes. I would really appreciate it if anyone values Bishop Nathan Hinckley and his courage, if you'll take the time to like this episode in YouTube or on Facebook and to subscribe to the Mormon Stories podcast channel. That will really help the algorithms and help encourage YouTube and Facebook to share this video and help it go viral. Because I think this is a really important episode that can help a lot of people. So please do take your time to do that. We're getting so many great comments in the chats.

John Dehlin [01:22:24] Let's go ahead and jump to the stake president. I'm just gonna say really quickly that, you know, I was excommunicated as having never been a bishop for speaking publicly about the things you just described. So when I saw in the Mormon Stories podcast Facebook community that you announced you were gonna be going to speak to your stake president and that you had been posting online many of these issues, and now that I've heard all the ones you've talked about, racism, questioning Mormon prophets, questioning tithing, questioning the church's morality standards, questioning the word of wisdom, priesthood authority. These are the big things, you know, the Mormon teachings of salvation in heaven, temple marriage.

John Dehlin [01:23:10] These are the types of things that are core to Mormon doctrine that I would expect once you spoke out against, you would immediately be excommunicated. So, you know, when I saw that you were going to be going into your stake president, I'm like, hey, I know how this ends. I know how that ended with me. I know how it ended with Natasha Helfer, with Sam Young, with Jeremy Runnels, with Bill Real, and with Lee and Cody Young. So many, so, so many Mormon Stories podcast guests have been excommunicated for much less than the types of things that you've been sharing Bishop Nathan Hinckley so far.

John Dehlin [01:23:52] And so I was stunned when I called you this morning to ask how things went with your stake president, because it was actually, so far, a very positive story for me to hear. So why don't you just go ahead and tell us what it was like to meet with your stake president and how that went, and you can tell us a little bit about how you knew him as well.

Meeting with the Stake President

Nathan Hinckley [01:24:15] Okay. So the stake president reached out to me about two weeks ago, and he said, hey, Nathan, just checking in. You doing okay? And I said, we're doing pretty well. Thanks for checking in. I'll be honest. I'm sure by now you've heard complaints about my Facebook page. And I'm sure you're disappointed in some of the stuff I've shared that. I mean no offense to you or any of the members, and I would understand if you need to remove my name. But I wanted to mention two things first.

Nathan Hinckley [01:24:54] Number one, I pointed out how they had said they wanted to bring these things out and that I thought that I'm maybe helping them. And more importantly, I said, president, people are hurting. You would not believe the amount of people who have sent me personal messages and thanked me for speaking out. Members who have been silently hurting.

Nathan Hinckley [01:25:16] And I told about the story about a man who reached out to me who does not have social media, but he has been aware of many of these problems through his own study. And he was almost in tears just in when one of his daughters had showed him my page, and she said, hey, Dad, I think I know what you might be going through. And he's scrolling through and he gave me a call. He said, I didn't know that anybody knew this stuff. And he says, you know, I'm so glad to have someone to talk to about this stuff related to that. I just want to mention this one comment that was posted.

Nathan Hinckley [01:26:00] So I think. I think I'm probably okay to say this. It was posted publicly by a friend of mine. It is very painful to leave. We need support. If Nathan Hinckley and Amy I didn't speak out and let me know I am not alone. I am not kidding you. I was having suicidal thoughts. I wanted to be dead. It is not fun to disappoint your family and break your mother's heart. You need to understand, Nathan is not trying to hurt the church. He is trying to help people like me. They have saved me. I don't cry every day. I can leave the house without having a panic attack.

Nathan Hinckley [01:26:38] I signed up for some therapy, all because they were courageous enough to speak out. And I'm not the only one who feels this way. So anyways, I told president that I would meet with him, but that I wanted him to read. And he acknowledged that he did hear about the Facebook posts, that he hadn't read them, or at least not many of them. So I said, well, I'll meet with you But I want you to read them all. So I sent them all to him

John Dehlin [01:27:07] and this, I just want to highlight this point. Mormons tell on each other. If you post unapproved or critical things to the Internet, it's inevitable that an active, faithful Mormon is going to turn you in to church leaders. And that's not for, that's just for like talking openly about history. That's factual. It's a disturbing part of our culture that I think bears, you know, noting. Yep. Yeah.

Nathan Hinckley [01:27:36] So we, you know, to be fair, this is what he responded back. He says, you know, I'm not thinking that we need to remove your name or anything. This was before he read, read the stuff he says, honestly, I just love to sit down and hear your perspective and so I can see what I can do better to address these things. So anyways, I sent him the, sent him the, the messages and then I saw him last Wednesday and we talked for two hours.

Nathan Hinckley [01:28:10] And actually, John, it was a great, it was a great meeting. He did not speak down to me. He didn't tell me I'm wrong. He didn't say, oh, all of this stuff you've posted is anti or it's not accurate.

Nathan Hinckley [01:28:27] He didn't do any of that. We had a, quite frankly, just a really good two hour talk. Let me see what I. So this was, this was my, what I had wrote about the meeting. I said, like I said, the guy is actually a great guy. He did not speak down to me, shame me, tell me I'm wrong or asked me to stop posting. We talked for two hours. In my opinion. He basically said that I'm in a better place and a better person now than I was before, which I agree with. Before I was black and white by the book only True Church exclusive truth.

Nathan Hinckley [01:29:10] And now I find truth and goodness wherever I look. It's all around us. I had sent him all of my Facebook posts and told him that I would only meet him if he read them, which he did. He didn't say that anything was wrong, but mentioned that some of it may have been dated, which he was right. I talked about one of them, how all the apostles were related through different ways, which I acknowledge that that was 20 years ago or so. But anyway, it was actually a great meeting. I showed him the multiple messages that I've received from people who have found strength and validation from my post, including some people who have, who were in an extremely serious depression by religious trauma.

Nathan Hinckley [01:29:55] I told him that I understood if he needs to remove my name, but that I thought it would be more appropriate to have me speak at state conference to let people know that they are not alone if they decide to leave or if they have problems with the church. That's pretty much where it has ended.

John Dehlin [01:30:14] And, you know, you obviously, since being a Mormon bishop, have done a deep dive into Mormon church history. Problems with its truth claims, problems with its doctrine and theology. How would you compare your stake President's knowledge both to yours and to all the things that, you know are out there that most Mormons really don't feel safe or encouraged to learn? Was he more knowledgeable than you? The same. Or did it seem like he wasn't really aware of the issues that caused you concern, or could you tell?

Nathan Hinckley [01:30:55] I think I could tell. I think that he was definitely, definitely more knowledgeable than me from a year ago. And when I talked about some of the problems, he seemed like he knew. He knew. He knew the problems.

Nathan Hinckley [01:31:12] And, you know, the answer that he gave honestly is the only answer that he can give. And it was that, you know, Brother Hinckley, it's just about faith. And that was, you know, I don't knock him for that. That's the only answer you can give to some of this. You either just have faith and just go with it and trust that it's right, you know, or not. But I can't. I can't say one negative thing about him. He, as far as I can tell, he. He knows these things that I've brought. Brought up.

Nathan Hinckley [01:31:46] He didn't seem surprised or, you know, he didn't say, oh, I don't know about that. I'm gonna have to look into that. He heard me, and I thought he. My opinion. I thought he actually agreed with me on a few things, but that's neither here nor there.

Nathan Hinckley [01:32:03] I would just say that he's a really good guy. And judging by the way my sister was treated for simply saying, oh, I don't know about this mall, I think if we can have leaders like this guy, I think the church is probably in pretty good hands, because I can't. I can't down in one bit.

John Dehlin [01:32:22] That's so amazing. Really quickly, did LGBT issues come up with. With. With your stake president at all?

Nathan Hinckley [01:32:32] Not much. I. I had brought it up that. Especially talking about the reversal of the. The. The.

John Dehlin [01:32:41] The exclusionary policy.

Nathan Hinckley [01:32:43] Yeah, I. I brought up that and that. That I didn't see how that was, you know, the Lord. I didn't see the Lord in that. That it seemed to me that it was either either their own. Their own opinions or by the driven by the public or whatever. But we talked a good bit about that. He seemed to be very aware and I don't want to speak for him because we actually spoke a lot more about that than. Than I've said. But I would just say this. He is very friendly to the LGBT cause.

John Dehlin [01:33:28] That's great to hear. That's really great to hear. Really quick, I want to thank Noemi Guzman for the super chat. Those donations really make a difference. If you're able to throw us a little support financially, that helps make what we do sustainable. We're also grateful for those who are monthly donors. If you want to support Mormon Stories, you can become a monthly donor. At MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor, and we'll keep providing you breaking stories like this. All right, so Bishop, so people may not believe this about me or think this about me. I am very, very happy on Mormon Stories to celebrate positive progress.

John Dehlin [01:34:14] Just like we celebrate, you know, same sex married couple Charlie Byrd and his husband Ryan Clifford. The fact that the Mormon Church is letting them be active in their wards, take the sacrament and have callings when just a few years ago they were excommunicating same sex married Mormon couples. I celebrate that. I'm happy for Charlie and Ryan. I'm happy for the church's progress. And that's why I want to personally thank your stake president for how wonderfully he responded to you and for the progress that he shows and for the way that he treated you civilly. And I want other bishops and stake presidents out there.

John Dehlin [01:34:59] And I know that we have bishops and stake presidents who watch Mormon stories faithfully. I want them to know and feel emboldened by the way your stake president treated you. And I hope that more and more stake presidents and bishops respond this way. So I'm thrilled that you had a good experience. I'm grateful that you're willing to share it.

John Dehlin [01:35:25] And I'm not gonna say, but, but I will say, and, and I share with you your frustration that you expressed earlier about change in the church, but because how many individuals and couples have been excommunicated for, you know, much less within the Mormon Church. We've covered so many couples and individuals that just for a benign tweet or just for supporting same sex marriage or just for creating a support group in their local area, they've been excommunicated without the church apologizing and without the church fixing or undoing or annulling those excommunications. And so it's bittersweet for me because I'm really happy for you. I'm really happy for the extent that future change happens in the church.

John Dehlin [01:36:20] And I just. I'm sad for people that don't have bishops and stake presidents like you do now because I heard about five lesbian couples being excommunicated just last month within the Mormon Church. And I know that there are others being tried for apostasy right now. So I'm sad for people who don't have your bishop or stake president now and of course, for all those in the past that have been treated more harshly. But having said that, I think this is a moment of celebration. So how are you feeling now that you've had such a positive interaction with your stake president?

Nathan Hinckley [01:37:01] Well, I feel like he did the right thing. I know that it's happened, like you said many times, but I don't see that the church has any right to, you know, to excommunicate or do any kind of disfellowship or anything for speaking truth. As far as I can tell, there's nothing I've said that is not true. True. And if there is, I would like to correct it. But. So I guess I'm. I'm. Like you said, I am grateful that. That it was this way. He showed. I did tell him he's close to about nine years or so. So I said, I don't think the next stake president will be quite as kind. And he says, well, you know, I don't know, but I know that that's maybe an exception, but I celebrate it.

John Dehlin [01:37:56] Yeah. You know, there are a couple comments that I'll share. Alan Zabriskie writes, bishop Roulette or stake president? Roulette is alive and well. He's basically saying it all depends on if you have the luck of the draw of a kind in a friendly bishop or stake president. I'll also add, just for those wanting to understand Mormon dynamics, when you're a former bishop and you're of influence, it will be experienced as a very big scandal both in your ward and in your stake if a bishop gets excommunicated. So it's in the Church's interest to not come after you, Nathan Hinckley. That doesn't mean they haven't been too dumb to do that in the past.

John Dehlin [01:38:42] But I would say it's smart from the church's point of view for the stake president to not go after you. But I'm not saying what his motives are or aren't. I'm just saying let's just face Reality there, it'd be dumb. It would probably cause a lot of other people to leave the church if the state came after you. Clancy writes, the stake president may be having his own faith crisis. And I'll just say that's also very possible. It would be speculation and it's not helpful to speculate in the case of your specific stake president. But as many people know on Mormon stories, we've had actively serving Mormon bishops come on Mormon stories in the past year and tell us that they've lost their faith while serving as bishops.

John Dehlin [01:39:29] And of course, I know I'm reached out to by bishops and stake presidents and high councilmen and missionaries all the time on Mormon stories told that they're quietly no longer believing. So anyway, that, you know, all that's true.

John Dehlin [01:39:46] It's getting harder and harder for church leaders to remain faithful, not, not knowing in any way what, what your, your actual stake president believes or what his fate might or might not be. Any reaction to that, Nathan?

Nathan Hinckley [01:40:04] Only that I agree. I agree completely. I just wanted to say a couple things because I feel like we might be wrapping up. First, like I said, I have the most respect for this president, this stake president. Not only is he a friend, but he's just. Just a kind, loving guy. And I'm grateful for that also, of course, my parents probably are crazy for me being on here, but I think if they've listened, they know that you, John, actually do a great service and a great work. And I wanted to sincerely thank you.

Nathan Hinckley [01:40:49] I was hurting bad when I found you, and I had never heard your name mentioned before. I didn't know that this community existed. And I had actually reached out to the other Nathan. I told you, and I said, nathan, I've. I've got a problem. And I knew that he had, he had left and, and he, he steered me in a lot of good places. But one of the places I found was you, John, and I wanted to thank you for that.

John Dehlin [01:41:19] Thank you.

Nathan Hinckley [01:41:20] And I was mentioning my parents. I wanted them to know how much I love them and, and appreciate them and, and, and they are really, really good people.

John Dehlin [01:41:32] I love it. I didn't want to stop you. Were there other things you wanted to say or were those the main things?

Nathan Hinckley [01:41:39] That was really it.

John Dehlin [01:41:40] Okay, okay. Let me share a couple more comments really quick because we're getting some great comments. Donna writes, I love awakened Southerners. That's Donna Donald. Hey, I'm a Southerner too. I don't know if I'm awakened Donna Donald, but I grew up in Texas, so I love the love to the Southerners. Oh, yes. Oh, I'll read a couple more quotes, and then we'll have you read your daughter's poem. Cause we never got that. WT Writes, this guy is incredibly solid. Alan Zabriskie says excommunicated Hinckley could lead to plenty of resignations. Mark Johnson asks, would you be willing to help out a local ward or stake, you know, with some sort of calling, given your good handling by the stake president? What would you say to Mark Nathan?

Nathan Hinckley [01:42:35] I don't know if I understood that question. What was he saying?

John Dehlin [01:42:38] Would you be willing to take a calling now that your stake president is treating you so well?

Nathan Hinckley [01:42:46] Only if it was a calling that was dealing with this topic. Hey, you know, we want. Would it be okay if we send people, you know, locally to you to, you know, to find. You know, to find a safe place to talk about some of these things? Something like that. If he wanted to do that as a calling. Sure. Nothing else.

John Dehlin [01:43:10] Okay, got it. All right. You want to read your daughter's poem? Because that's important.

Daughter's Resignation, Reflections, and Closing Thoughts

Nathan Hinckley [01:43:14] I do.

John Dehlin [01:43:14] Okay. Yeah, I do.

Nathan Hinckley [01:43:16] It's actually on my Facebook page. She has a few of these and a few of them that I can barely get through without crying. But this is called Death of Faith. What a shame it is that so many of my ancestors sacrificed so much for a spot in some higher heaven, a heaven full of desire and hierarchy dreamed up by white men. They wore the shackles I've now buried with so much reverence, swallowed the lies down with mouthfuls of sacrament bread and a convicted amen.

Nathan Hinckley [01:43:53] What they had wasn't faith coursing through their blood, giving them the strength to lose themselves in the sacrifice of day after day. It was fear, the blinding, animalistic kind that eats at you until you're a husk. And so it makes me wonder if they're proud of me.

Nathan Hinckley [01:44:15] Proud of me for being brave, Brave enough to break the chain of being enslaved to an eternal perspective. And I want my daughter to know that I am proud of her, that she stepped out and she took the lead.

Nathan Hinckley [01:44:38] I told her initially, hey, I think we got some problems. But then I watched her take the lead, and she says, yeah, I can't do this anymore. And actually, when she did, I just sat and cried all day. The day she says, yeah, I turned in my resignation, and, you know, whether someone decides to resign. Resign or not, I. That's not the point. The point is she did what she felt was the right thing to do, and I'm proud of her.

John Dehlin [01:45:10] For that.

Nathan Hinckley [01:45:10] And I am doing what I feel like is the right thing to do. And many people have not liked it, but I've gained a lot of other friends to fill their shoes. And so I intend on doing just that. To speak out without fear, to be brave. And that's what. That's what I'll do.

John Dehlin [01:45:34] I love it. That poem is so amazing. A shout out to your wonderful daughter for sharing it. So many comments are coming in. Renee Days writes, thank you, Nathan, for speaking. Jane writes, I love this poem. Great job. Natalie writes, hot damn crying. I've said the same thing. Songs of Our Own is asking if you're related to Gordon B. Hinckley. He mentioned at the beginning he was. Doug Vincent, a devout viewer and listener, says he's glad to see a fellow Tennessean. And Debbie asks, what part of Tennessee do you want to share that?

Nathan Hinckley [01:46:14] Sure. Yeah. It's. We're in the Knoxville area, so we live an hour north of Knoxville. So it's the. It's the Cumberland Gap Ward area.

John Dehlin [01:46:26] Okay. Cumberland Gap. Really quickly, Sarah writes, nathan says he's not a good writer, but he's an amazing writer. People may want to check out his posts. They are public. And I'll have Maven or Julia share those right now in the comments, and I'm pretty sure Julie is going to share those in the show notes as well. Are you a little bit at all concerned that coming on Mormon stories might be a bridge too far and could lead to potential disciplinary action or excommunication? Bishop Nathan Hinckley.

Nathan Hinckley [01:47:01] I'm not. I'm not concerned. I don't think it will. But like I said, they. They just need to do what they need to do. But it's. I don't see why that it would. I think you're doing a great service, John, and I think at least the people in my stake see that.

John Dehlin [01:47:21] Oh, well, thank you. So you're. You're not the only listener to Mormon stories in your stake? Is that what you're trying to tell me?

Nathan Hinckley [01:47:28] Well, I know of a few. Maybe. Maybe even in some leadership positions currently.

John Dehlin [01:47:36] I love it. Okay, I've got one really important announcement to make for the people of Tennessee and for the people in the surrounding states. Before I make that announcement, do you want to give any final thoughts before we close? Bishop Nathan Inkley.

Nathan Hinckley [01:47:57] I don't know what else to say other than thankful that I've had this chance to talk with you, and apparently some folks are listening in. I'm thankful for my Mormon upbringing. I think I did gain a lot from that. But I am also not so thankful that it seems we have been in many ways lied to. And I think it's time to set the record straight and do the hard thing. And it would be much easier just to go away quietly. But I don't see the benefit of that, or I don't see that that's the right thing for me. So I'm grateful for this opportunity to speak what I feel like is my truth and would encourage anyone else that feels that it's the right thing for them to do the same thing.

John Dehlin [01:48:58] Well, Bishop Nathan Hinckley, I hope I get a chance to shake your hand. I'm really grateful for your courage. We need more courageous people to speak up. And, you know, because Mormons respect authority, when people who are or have been in authority speak up, it moves the needle in ways that are unique and special. So I hope I can meet you next week when I'm in Tennessee with Margi. But Bishop Nathan Hinckley, a huge thanks to you, your wife and your daughter and your family for supporting you in speaking up and for your stake President and bishop. I assume that have been so kind and generous when others haven't. So thank you.

Nathan Hinckley [01:49:41] Appreciate that. Yep, they're all really good people. All good people in our ward right now. I love them all.

Tennessee Meetup Announcement

John Dehlin [01:49:49] All right, well, really quickly, let me just make a quick announcement. Those of you who are here at the beginning will have heard it. Margi and I are coming to Nashville, Tennessee, on May 25. The reason why we're doing a meetup is not because we think people want to meet us.

John Dehlin [01:50:13] We're doing a meetup because we want to help facilitate people making friends and finding community. And that's the only reason we're doing it. So you don't even need to come up and say hi. We're not. We're not showing up as new prophets or even with people with wisdom. We literally just want to use it as an excuse to have some fun, to shake your hand and to allow you to forge friendships and communities in Tennessee and in the surrounding states. So in the description both in YouTube and in Facebook and eventually on the Mormon Stories blog, there's a link to register for this meetup.

John Dehlin [01:50:52] It's super cheap. The money is just gonna go to food. No one's making any money off of this. You can donate to Mormon Stories podcast if you want, but it's not required. But there's gonna be events on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.

John Dehlin [01:51:07] A really generous couple, Jennifer and Darian, last name Rogers. They have sort of volunteered to help people have a good time. They volunteered their own home, their backyard, for at least one or two of the events. So what you need to do is register, go on to the Facebook group.

John Dehlin [01:51:34] Once you've registered, join the Facebook group and there'll be details for the events there. I'll also be emailing you all more details, but if you, if you want to, if you're from Tennessee and you want to meet other Tennesseans who are either progressive or post Mormons, we would love to facilitate that. No pressure.

John Dehlin [01:51:55] Also, if you want to host a meetup in your city or state or country, Margi and I would be willing to come out to help facilitate community there as well. You just need to email us@mormonstoriesmail.com give us a sense that you have the ability, means or whatever to organize an event, because we don't have time to do the actual organizing, but we will support whatever meetups we can if it means people will find friends and community. So, anyway, again, check that out in the description below and you know, if you are, you know, someone who has a Mormon story where you think like Bishop Nathan Hinckley, your story can help others.

John Dehlin [01:52:42] Go to mormonstories.org, apply to become a guest on Mormon Stories. And Margi and I would love to consider you. We've got lots of panels coming up. Did you watch the Bishop's panel, Bishop Hinckley? Did you see that?

Nathan Hinckley [01:52:56] I did. I really found that very enlightening and fascinating. Would like to do that sometime, maybe.

John Dehlin [01:53:07] Awesome. And I'll also announce we're really excited that this upcoming week we're going to be releasing our Relief Society panel. We did a panel of Relief Society presidents and we're going to be releasing it. And we're really excited about that as well, because that was the most requested panel after we did the Bishop's panel. I also just want to thank everyone who donates to Mormon Stories podcast. We couldn't do it without you and we need more donors to replace the ones that drop off and quit. So just really quickly if you want to see Mormon Stories continue. If you value this content, please go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor, and then we'll be able to keep providing this content.

John Dehlin [01:53:51] Thank you for everyone who is a donor already. Also, please like this episode and subscribe to the channel and that will help push this episode far and wide with the algorithms so that many people can benefit from it. All right, Bishop Nathan Hinckley, you're the best. I hope to shake your hand next weekend.

Nathan Hinckley [01:54:10] Sounds good, John. I hope to see you then.

John Dehlin [01:54:11] And if there's any further developments, I hope they're only positive. We would love to welcome you back to update us on the developments.

Nathan Hinckley [01:54:19] If I find out that I sound like Minnie Mouse on here, we're going to have to do this again anyway.

John Dehlin [01:54:24] That's fine. Fine. I'm sure it's worth it, but really, the voice is fine. Even though we don't know your voice, it's the content and the substance of your voice. And I apologize to those who know you who say your voice is different. There's something about your microphone that I think maybe tweaked your voice a little bit from our end. It sounds great, but I apologize to your family and friends that are like, that's not what Nathan sounds like. That's just the best we could do. Anyway, you are great, Nathan. Thanks so much. You take care. Hope to shake your hand soon.

Nathan Hinckley [01:54:56] All right. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [01:54:57] And thanks to everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Thanks to Julia for doing the time codes and show notes and the shorts. Thanks to Maven for the post production. Thanks to Gerardo for the thumbnails and the help. Thanks to Brooklyn for the video editing. Thanks to our board. Thanks to our donors that make all this possible. Thanks to all of you viewers who comment and share. We love the comments on our channel and we love the support. Please email me@mormonstoriesmail.com with any feedback or suggestions. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. And I hope to see some of you in Nashville, Tennessee on May 25, 2024. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.