Introducing the Episode and Guest Randy Bell

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 21, 2024, and today we are super excited to bring you a story that I've been wanted to. Wanting to bring to you for a long, long time.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] It's a fascinating story. It's also a disturbing story. So just be warned, sort of a trigger warning. There will be discussion of. It's kind of a true crime thing. So all the things that go along with true crime, including death, we're going to be talking about today. We're going to be talking about Heaven's Gate, which is a cult that emerged, I don't know, in the 70s, 60s, 70s and early 80s in California. And it's known. And again, trigger warnings. It's known as kind of a suicide cult or death cult because it ended in tragedy. And so we're just going to be telling the story today of the Heavens Gate cult. And joining us again on Mormon Stories to tell us the story is Dr. Randy Bell. Hey, Randy.

Randy Bell [00:01:06] Hey, John. Hi, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:01:08] Welcome back to Mormon Stories, Randy.

Randy Bell [00:01:09] Thank you.

Randy Bell [00:01:09] It's great to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] Yeah. So we've had Randy on several times to talk about different things. His story, I think we had a debate about, you know, God and not God and that sort of thing with Alan Mount. We also did one on Joseph Smith and the Dartmouth Connection, which was really interesting. Any other episodes we've.

Randy Bell [00:01:29] We did one with RFM on Critical Thinking.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] Yeah.

Randy Bell [00:01:33] And maybe there's some others.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] Yeah. Well, anyway, Randy's a dear friend and a smart guy, and he's always doing interesting things. Stuff. Some stuff so interesting you can't even talk about. Right, Randy?

Randy Bell [00:01:45] A couple things.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] Yeah. So. So Randy's just not, like, you know, casually interested in Heaven's Gate. He was involved in the cleanup of Heaven's Gate, and so that's why we're having him on. But we're going to spend the next couple just telling the story and then trying to tease out the tactics or the techniques that were used to gain influence over the followers that led to a really catastrophic end. And then for those of you who are really interested in Mormonism, you can decide if there are parallels or not. Maybe a couple parallels will explicitly come out. But we also invite you to kind of see if you think there are parallels between Heaven's Gate and its leaders and. And the Mormon Church. But anyway, Randy, why don't I just turn it over to you and tell us all about Heaven's Gate. But first, what do you want to tell us about your background.

Randy Bell [00:02:43] Oh, well, my background on Heaven's Gate was I specialize in real estate damage economics. So I've worked on a number of disasters for decades. The World Trade Center, I worked on O.J. john, Bonnie Ramsey. Most of the cases are not big, sensationalized cases, but some of them are. I just worked on Jeffrey Epstein. That's one I can't talk about too much. But I got involved. They called me. The owner called me and asked me to come down, and I said, are the bodies out? I mean, this is right in the middle of it. And he said, no, they're still taking them out. I said, I'll come down after they're finished taking the bodies out. I had no interest in seeing that. I really don't have more of a curiosity, despite the career I have. So I went down. My first reaction to going into the Heaven's Gate mansion was.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] And you would have been called to estimate the damage to the property.

Randy Bell [00:03:37] Heaven's Gate was more than that. Each case is a little different. But that was not only. The legal term is diminution of value. I measure loss in value, and it's more of an economic study. But in that case, the owner asked me to manage the property. I had keys. I took the media through, I took the contractors through. I took everyone through.

Randy Bell [00:03:59] Real estate agents who were trying to sell the property. I have a broker's license, but I didn't want to broker it. It's not really what I do. But I was enormously involved for about a year and a half. Some weeks, I went down almost every day to the house.

Randy Bell [00:04:15] Yeah. And I met the people that knew the cult. I saw their living space. I saw how they organized themselves. And you learn a lot going through people's space in terms of their habits, their rituals, their idiosyncrasies. And I don't think I'd ever seen anything like Heaven's Gate. It was. It was off the hook. Bizarre.

John Dehlin [00:04:34] Yeah.

Randy Bell [00:04:35] Yeah. All right.

Overview of Heaven's Gate Timeline

John Dehlin [00:04:36] Well, we appreciate you being willing to share with us what you learned on a pretty morose topic. We've got a slide here. Do we want to talk to this slide?

Randy Bell [00:04:46] Yeah, a little bit. I mean, we're going to be showing some YouTube clips. Heaven's Gate is dark. There's no way around it. It's creepy. And also, I wanted to start by saying, to the extent that I add my own personal commentary, don't believe a word I say. Research what I. Information's out there. So I invite people to the extent that they're interested to do their own research.

John Dehlin [00:05:10] Okay. I love it. I agree. Okay, so we've got this next slide, characteristics of a cult. Do you want to talk about the timeline in your lap first?

Defining Characteristics of a Cult

Randy Bell [00:05:17] The timeline's coming up on the characteristics. I don't want to run through lists, but there are distinctive characteristics of a cult and we're going to touch on everything on the list.

John Dehlin [00:05:29] Let's go ahead and read this list because I think, I think it's a worthwhile framework for today's discussion. And I think we have many people who aren't just Mormon, but are from other high demand religions or just interested in religions. And I think they'd benefit from thinking about the signs of a cult. This isn't necessarily tied to Mormonism.

Randy Bell [00:05:48] This is general stuff.

John Dehlin [00:05:50] Okay, go ahead and read those.

Randy Bell [00:05:51] Well, there's a lack of full disclosure. People that got into Heaven's gate were not told the truth, were not told a lot of things. But for what had happened, I don't think they would have joined the cult. I mean, I don't know. Also the topic of undue influence, we're going to talk more about that. But the classic law school definition of undue influence is there's a mom in the nursing home ailing and wiped out on drugs. And the son goes in and says, hey, mom, sign this deed over and basically steals the property for himself and excludes his siblings. In other words, you're having people agree to things but they don't know really what they're agreeing to. And that is kind of a direct cousin of full disclosure. You should know exactly what you're buying into. That goes right down to a car, a washing machine, or an organization you join.

John Dehlin [00:06:46] Especially a religion that claims to channel divine.

Randy Bell [00:06:49] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] All right, what's the third?

Randy Bell [00:06:52] There's a theme, and I've seen it with a lot of these cases with O.J. jeffrey Epstein and this case and numerous others, that there's a theme of sex, power and money. Philosophically, I believe that a holistic life is about body, mind and soul. But they extract out and they kind of mine out of that and extract out of that sex, power and money. And you will see this classic characteristic with every single predator. And this was a predator group. That's the way I think about it.

John Dehlin [00:07:21] Okay, go ahead and read the rest. There just.

Randy Bell [00:07:24] Yeah, well, there's leader worship. I mean, they literally worshiped do and T. And we're going to talk about who they were and. And they really were just in awe. They had kind of more than a celebrity Status. They were just everything.

Randy Bell [00:07:36] So big one. And then there's the lack of leader accountability. Leaders can get away with literally anything and nobody does jack about it. There's a lack of transparent financials. With Heaven's Gate, it was more the law of consecration. You gave everything to the cult or to the group. And.

Randy Bell [00:07:57] And there was no financial transparency where your money was actually going. And then you had unethical or legal behaviors going on. I mean, they were doing surgeries with castration, which are illegal without a medical license, and protocols and so forth. They were doing all kinds of things that were flat out illegal, but they thought that they had a higher law with God who is.

Randy Bell [00:08:20] Well, we'll talk about who God is according to Heaven's Gate. They had unquestioning faith. They knew with every fiber of their being what they were doing was right, right down to the point of suicide. And so there was a never waving mindset in terms of their beliefs.

Randy Bell [00:08:40] They dishonored the family unit. I mean, they left their kids, they left their spouses, they left their family and friends to join the group. And so they dishonored the family unit. They talked about lofty love of everyone, but when it came down to their actual behavior, it was a very different story where they left people behind.

Randy Bell [00:09:03] And then they were intolerant of questioning. I have quotations coming up right out of their playbook, their handbook of instruction, where you were not allowed to question the leaders or criticize the leaders. And it's in writing. I mean, it was documented. And then there was a lack of critical thinking. And that's where you could go back to the episode you and I did, John, with rfm and we talked about the rules and.

Randy Bell [00:09:30] Well, I don't know the rules, but the protocols of what real critical thinking is, rather than it just being a fancy buzzword. And there was an immense shame on members for leaving. And so people would stay in because they didn't want to be ridiculed by the people they had come to bond with and love for leaving. So those are the main characteristics.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] All right, perfect. Okay, so you've got an overview there of just kind of a timeline just to give people a general sense for the story.

Randy Bell [00:09:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So the timeline. I wanted to kind of just take 60 seconds and bring people up to the Heaven's Gate mansion. There were actually two leaders in Heaven's Gate. There was the body nettles, who went later by the name of T. And then Marshall Applewhite was.

Randy Bell [00:10:20] Came later. Applewhite was a Schoolteacher. He was separated with his wife when he was caught having a gay affair with one of the students. I'm not particularly concerned about his gay issues, but having an affair with a student and a teacher, that's crossing the line. Applewhy had an nde, And I've personally know a couple people that have had NDEs. But he. The people I know don't talk about it publicly, and they certainly don't use it as a vehicle to write books or to tell people that, hey, follow what I have to say. I have something proprietary to tell you. But Doe used his NDE to tell others how to live their lives.

John Dehlin [00:11:08] So near death experiences.

Randy Bell [00:11:10] Yeah, near death experiences played into it. And then Applewhite and Nettles, they actually met in a. In a mental institution. Applewhite was diagnosed with schizophrenia. So he was actually a mental patient, and Nettles was a nurse. And so there's all kinds of ethical problems with the fact that the two of them got together.

Randy Bell [00:11:32] Another issue that happened is that Doe was a convicted criminal. He had rented a car, never returned it. It was essentially a stolen car. He spent six months in jail. So none of this was disclosed to the cult members. When they joined in 1970, they actually formed the group. They started just kind of running around to college campuses. And then in 1976, they started camping, low cost, with the group, dozens and dozens of people. And they did kind of the camping routine for three years until about 1979. And then after that, one of the members of the group had received a large inheritance. Well, that was sucked in by the cult leaders.

Randy Bell [00:12:19] And then they could afford homes, and they lived in multiple homes from 1979 to 1996. And then they ended up where a lot of these groups end up, in a mansion. It was outside of San Diego. Very, very large house, three acres of land, very private. And that's where I became involved. So they were in the mansion from 1996 to 1997 when the police discovered their bodies. And that's the period that. That I'm personally more familiar with.

John Dehlin [00:12:49] All right, so as I'm looking through. As I'm looking through this list, I'm, you know, I'm thinking about my basic understanding of Mormonism. I do see some parallels there. You know, a religious founder with a criminal record is always a red flag, right? Sounds like there was a little bit of that going on. Very much this idea of, you know, I don't know, of. Of recruiting people of means and then using their money to grow your organization. The Idea of people being renamed, being given new names. Yeah, that sounds a little familiar. That's, you know, some say that's kind of a sign of an unhealthy organization if they're giving you new names.

Randy Bell [00:13:32] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:33] You know, and. And of course, the leader ends up living in a mansion. That's. That's also a sure sign.

Randy Bell [00:13:39] Yeah. There's of course, the mansion house and the Heaven's Gate mansion. There's kind of a mansion complex. And the other one I would add to that list is the NDE kind of visions or glimpses of the other side.

John Dehlin [00:13:50] Some sort of theophany that then you can claim divine mandate.

Randy Bell [00:13:55] Yeah. You have kind of the inside, you know, advanced knowledge to impart to others.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:14:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:02] All right, so then, anything else on that timeline?

Randy Bell [00:14:06] No, that's basically it. They spent $30,000 and raised and put a big ad in the USA today. They expected just an avalanche of attention and they actually had hundreds of members at one time. But as their real agenda became known, more people fell away to the point where they were down to 39 members.

Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles Origins

John Dehlin [00:14:30] Okay. All right, so the next slide, it looks like it says do, but that's really do Do. Tell us about Doe.

Randy Bell [00:14:38] Well, Doe is the main character. He was the guy that lived in the mansion. T had. We'll get to her, but she had passed away. Doe was diagnosed with schizophrenia and he led the group. We're going to get to know him better through video clips and so forth. But he was the main character that everybody worshiped.

John Dehlin [00:15:03] Yeah. And for those who are listening and can't see, it kind of looks like this older gentleman in his, I don't know, 60s or 70s, with gray, short cropped hair on the sides and kind of bald up top, kind of a thin guy. And his eyes are. You just automatically. His eyes are kind of strange looking. They're blue and they're kind of wider.

Randy Bell [00:15:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:24] And those are just some of the things I'm noticing. I said this in a previous episode. I'm struck by how many cult leaders come across as kind of goobers. And I know that sounds terrible, but if you think of like David Koresh or Warren Jeffs or. Or Keith Ranieri, these are not like normal cool dudes. These aren't even necessarily on their face, super charismatic or compelling guys. But somehow guys that are kind of gooberish end up leading really unhealthy cults.

Randy Bell [00:16:00] Yeah.

Randy Bell [00:16:00] They put on a mask. They come across as innocuous, as benign, kind of like you say, kind of goofy. When I talked to the owner of the mansion. They actually rented the mansion from my client, who is Sam Kuchasfahani. And I asked Sam at one. Well, I asked him. We had a lot of conversations about the group. But he said when he met Doe, that he came across as kind of a goofy monk, just like a cool vibed monk with leading a group of a few dozen people. And that was kind of his Persona. That was his shtick to come across as kind of a cool, trendy monk.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, let's learn more. So let's talk about Marshall Applewhite, the precursor to Doe.

Randy Bell [00:16:48] Well, there's another picture of him, and you can see when this is in the days where he was a schoolteacher, he was actually a music teacher. This is all kind of based in Texas, by the way. It started off in Texas, where he was a schoolteacher. That's where he got fired for having the affair.

Guest [00:17:03] And.

Randy Bell [00:17:03] And then I have the mug shot.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] Female or a male student?

Randy Bell [00:17:06] A male student, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] So there's a general sense he might have been gay or bisexual.

Randy Bell [00:17:11] I think he. Yeah, I think he was the. But rather than being validated and being gay, which I think is the healthy thing, he was shamed. His father was a preacher, and his father was a very big figure in his life, and he really layered on the shame about his gay tendencies or his gay disposition, who he is. So rather than being validated and supported and loved for who he was, he got into this mode of suppression and shame.

John Dehlin [00:17:43] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:17:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:44] And that's like a mugshot.

Randy Bell [00:17:46] Yeah. And then the next to it is a mugshot. I mean, he was convicted criminal. He's the real deal. But that didn't stop him from starting a group.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] All right, so the next slide is T or Bonnie Lou Nettles.

Randy Bell [00:17:59] Yeah, we got to talk about her a little bit. I mean, she's. The nurse, passed away. I know less about her. Conversations about her came up. When you go into the Heaven's Gate mansion, there was a platform in the living room to the right, and there were two chairs and they had stickers on them. One said dough and one said tea. And Tea had a symbolic. He had her chair there symbolically, like she was there in spirit next to his chair where he sat and gave his. There were endless meetings in Heaven's Gate. If you belong to Heaven's Gate, you are chronically going to meetings. And he had her there kind of in spirit.

John Dehlin [00:18:36] I guess I'm dying to know. Like when we read about Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow. Chad's naming some of the spirits, like, almost giving them, like, Homer Simpson, like, names, just this weird. Or they're talking about portals, like a Star Trek kind of thing. It's weird how sometimes cult leaders pull popular culture into their weirdness. And I'm dying to know if, like, the dough and the T is connected to, like, sound of Doremi Facilito.

Randy Bell [00:19:03] That's exactly where it came from. And they had other names. Yeah. By the way, they bounced around their new names. One was Bowen Peep. I remember that. They had numerous names, but they settled finally on Doe and T. But it was exactly. You nailed it. That's where it came from.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] Fascinating.

Randy Bell [00:19:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:19] Okay. All right. So here's a picture of the mansion.

Randy Bell [00:19:21] Yeah, I took this picture. It's. I forget how big it was. I think 10,000ft. I just don't remember. I used to have all the stats memorized, but it was very, very private from any part of that property. You didn't have any neighbors that could see in. So you could do crazy things and rituals and nobody would ever know.

John Dehlin [00:19:44] And for those who don't know, California. Where is this approximately?

Randy Bell [00:19:46] Well, Rancho Santa Fe is just north of San Diego. In fact, the house sat up on a hill, and you could actually see San Diego on a clear day.

John Dehlin [00:19:54] Oh, nice.

Randy Bell [00:19:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:55] So it's a nice, nice home.

Randy Bell [00:19:57] It was more than a nice home.

John Dehlin [00:19:58] What would it be worth today if it didn't have the weird coldness associated with it?

Randy Bell [00:20:02] I would guess over 10 million. That's just a guess. Nobody should go to the bank with that. But I can tell you, I had the chance to buy it, and it was discounted so steeply that I could have afforded it. And I went to my wife at the time, and I said, hey, we can buy this house. Three acres, limousine garage, elevator, tennis court, pool. Every amenity you can imagine. And she looked at me like I was a village idiot. Like, there's no way I'm going to live in that house.

John Dehlin [00:20:34] Yeah, that's probably wise. Yeah, you can flip it. You can flip it.

Randy Bell [00:20:39] You think so? But my dream was crushed.

John Dehlin [00:20:43] All right, what do you want to say about their website designers?

Randy Bell [00:20:45] Well, they were website designers. I mean, in the house where there was cable everywhere, it was just. They had these old clunky Microsoft computers, But they were really very, very bright. These were not dumb people. They were developing websites before a lot of us even knew what the Internet was. So they were at the really, the leading edge of technology. The point there is, we're not talking about Dumb people. We're talking about remarkably smart people.

The Hale-Bopp Comet and the Mass Death

John Dehlin [00:21:13] Okay, and how does the Haley Bopp Comet come into play?

Randy Bell [00:21:17] Well, they had a philosophy that we're going to be talking more about Hale Bopp, but Hale Bopp was a comet that came into view, and you could actually see it without a telescope, with a natural eye. And T had T. The woman, the leader, she was supposed to lead everybody to heaven, and then she died, which made the cult. We really kind of set him in a tailspin. Like, how could our leader die when she was going to take us into heaven? And remarkably, they kind of doubled down on their belief. Even though she had been falsified, her prophecy, if you will, was false. But then the next idea that Doe came up with is there's a spaceship, a ufo, that is following Hale Bopp Comet, and we're all going to be beamed up into that spaceship.

John Dehlin [00:22:10] Got it?

Randy Bell [00:22:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:12] Okay, that makes no sense, but whatever.

Randy Bell [00:22:14] No sense, but that's what they believed. So this is all happening around the time of Hale Bopp. So.

John Dehlin [00:22:22] All right, so the next picture is kind of graphic. Are these pictures you took or.

Randy Bell [00:22:27] No, I grabbed these from the police video. I went down and got the police videos. I did not want to see this.

John Dehlin [00:22:32] These are photos of the bodies.

Randy Bell [00:22:34] Yeah, there were 39 bodies. And what's curious about it, John, is they were under purple shrouds. They had all had black Nikes on. They had quarters in their pocket. All of this was inexplicable. There was nothing in the house that explained why they did that. These things in this ritualistic suicide. But they did. They were each on an individual cot. There was hard. I don't think. I can't think of offhand a room in the house that didn't have bodies, you know, 39 people. Even though the home was large, they were everywhere. And it was grim. It was what it was. It was awful.

John Dehlin [00:23:18] Yeah. Okay. And some call this the cult of cults.

Randy Bell [00:23:23] You know what's funny is they called themselves the cult of cults. They took on the criticism, and in kind of an apologist fashion, they would mock the people that were calling them names. And so they were, again, very high IQ people, and they were keenly aware of what other people thought of them. And they had rebuttals conveniently in place to rebut all that.

John Dehlin [00:23:50] Okay. And then in this slide, you mentioned again that they targeted high functioning people. Yeah, they have the domain heavensgate.com. that's crazy.

Randy Bell [00:24:00] And it's still running.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] Oh, my God.

Randy Bell [00:24:02] You can go to heavensgate.com today. And in fact, I got some grabs off the screen to show later on.

John Dehlin [00:24:09] And there's the 9,200 square feet of the house.

Randy Bell [00:24:12] Yeah. Oh, there it is. Yeah. 9,200 square feet. And they also. They killed themselves with poison and vodka mixed with applesauce and pudding. So that's how they did the job, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:24:26] Okay, what did you want to say about the police activity when you.

Randy Bell [00:24:29] Well, it was. I mean, a lot of people weren't born when Heaven's Gate happened, but it was enormous. There was just the media, there were helicopters over the house constantly. Drones hadn't been invented it yet, but this dominated the news cycle for weeks, if not months. It was huge.

Randy Bell [00:24:54] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:24:55] Yeah, yeah. And then at some point, there was private security.

Randy Bell [00:25:00] Oh, yeah. Well, what happened, John, is 39 people died by suicide, but there was actually other members that wanted to be there that missed the trip to Ahab Comet. There were people actually trying to climb the fences. And this happens in a lot of our cases where they're trying to get in for various reasons. And this one guy in particular, who's relentless, kept trying to climb the fence. We kept kicking him out, and we had to hire a 247 private security guard to keep people him. And also curiosity seekers. And frankly, there's an element of society that when there's a site like this, they have syntanic rituals that doesn't get talked a lot in the media, but it happens with a lot of these cases. So we're trying to keep all these people out of the house.

John Dehlin [00:25:54] And I remember reading about this case that there at least was one person who felt bad they missed the mass suicide, and so they died by suicide afterwards of their own volition.

Randy Bell [00:26:06] That was the guy we kept trying to keep out of the house.

John Dehlin [00:26:08] Same guy.

Randy Bell [00:26:09] Same guy.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] So ultimately, I guess the house was demolished.

Randy Bell [00:26:12] It was demolished. I took this picture when it was demolished, and then it was even further demolished. They took out every blade of grass, every tree, the pool, everything.

Randy Bell [00:26:20] Wow.

Randy Bell [00:26:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:21] It was that extreme or normal?

Randy Bell [00:26:23] It's very extreme. Like when I worked on the O.J. case. O.J.

Guest [00:26:26] they.

Randy Bell [00:26:26] When the house got redeveloped, they left the tennis court, they left the golf, the guest house. They leave things in place that they want to keep this. They wanted a complete erase, you know, they wanted to erase the whole. Whole deal.

John Dehlin [00:26:39] That makes sense.

Randy Bell [00:26:39] Yeah.

Systems Theory and Cult Recruitment Tactics

John Dehlin [00:26:40] All right, let's just touch briefly on some systems theory just to kind of frame the story we're going to be telling.

Randy Bell [00:26:47] Yeah, I mean, Steve Hasson, of course, has Done some brilliant work with the byte model. And I think. I know you've done episodes with Steve. And if people are really into the system theory from Steve Hasson's perspective, there's the byte model and the influence continuum. And I've done work on systems theory from a different perspective, which I call the predator systems theory. And basically, you have the inner nucleus, which is the gray circles. That's where you have the key figure and the inner circle that are kind of in on it. And the enablers and then the buffer zone are kind of the true believers and the recruiters and the support team.

Randy Bell [00:27:29] And the outer red zone is kind of your critics and the authorities and the public and media. And you will see again, this system. These groups are very much systematized. And you see this pattern over and over again. And it's true with Heaven's Gate as well.

John Dehlin [00:27:45] Okay, cool. Yeah. All right. Do you play. Do you plan to publish on that or have you published on that?

Randy Bell [00:27:51] I have not published on that, and I do have a book coming out that's going to cover that for sure.

John Dehlin [00:27:58] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:27:58] Yeah.

Guest [00:27:59] All right.

John Dehlin [00:27:59] Closed system. What's this about?

Randy Bell [00:28:01] Well, they were a closed system. They would, of course, proselytize. They would, you know, had their recruitment efforts. But once you got into the group, it was very much a closed system. Very secretive, very much. We have advanced knowledge. It was very much us versus them mentality. And the point of saying a closed system is there are open systems and closed systems. And open systems are very transparent. Closed systems are very secretive. And they were very much on the closest.

John Dehlin [00:28:35] Is this a flyer?

Randy Bell [00:28:36] Yeah, this is one of their flyers that they would send out. They're very kind of, I guess from the 80s perspective, that's okay with the artwork. But they were pretty simple in their recruitment. They would just kind of hand out flyers. And their main shtick was we're a Christian group and we are into UFOs. That was the two big themes of this recruitment effort.

John Dehlin [00:29:02] On this flyer, I'm noticing one of the themes that Luna Lindsey Korbden shared in the recovering agency book that they released. It says, last chance to advance beyond human. This idea of creating a sense of urgency or of scarcity. It's. It's a. It's valuable in sales. Like, you know, only three left or buy now before the sale ends.

Randy Bell [00:29:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] They do the same type of thing in unhealthy organizations. They say, gotta do it now. Yeah, time's running out.

Randy Bell [00:29:31] Yeah, very common.

John Dehlin [00:29:32] That's. That's, I guess, Latter Day Saints Right. The whole Jesus is coming any minute serves that same function of creating scarcity. Right?

Randy Bell [00:29:41] Yeah.

Randy Bell [00:29:41] I mean, when I was a kid in the 70s, you know, the last days, I was supposed to be the last generation.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] By the way, you were Saturday's worshiper. I thought I was Saturday's worship.

Randy Bell [00:29:51] Yeah, I was.

John Dehlin [00:29:52] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:29:52] Yeah. They keep passing that along, but no, I was told we were very much the last group. I was sitting next to a girl once in sacrament meeting, and she said, said my patriarchal blessing says I will see the coming of Christ. So that was the thing then. And it was frankly what Heaven's Gate was all about.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] And honestly, generations have died within Mormonism having been promised that they would usher in Jesus second coming. So you have to take that with a grain of salt. All right, so we're going to dive into their beliefs now. We've given kind of an overview, and now you've got some of their core beliefs.

Randy Bell [00:30:29] Yeah, well, the most shocking one was Doe proclaimed that he was Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:30:36] And you've got a clip.

Randy Bell [00:30:37] He actually says it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] So we'll play a clip.

Randy Bell [00:30:41] Yeah.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:30:44] You say, well, according to religious literature, I thought there was someone else that was going to come and be our savior here at these end days, that that was going to be Christ's return. Well, the name Christ might be a little confusing or the name Jesus, because the name Jesus, of course. Of course was the name given to the body that that mind that was indeed from the kingdom of heaven came.

Video Clip 1 [00:31:14] And that mind was here 2,000 years ago. And that mind came for the express purpose of teaching human how they could be saved, how they would not be plowed under at the end of the age. Well, we're at the end of the age.

Video Clip 1 [00:31:30] So the one or the mind that was in Jesus, what that mind is in me. You'll have to decide that for yourself. I must admit that I am here again, that I'm here saying exactly the same thing that I said then, trying to say it in today's language, trying to hope that for your sakes, you can see what we have to offer you, for our Father offers you life.

John Dehlin [00:32:05] All right, so I'll just go ahead and stop that. So he's clearly, you know, we watched a little bit of the video before. He's creating the sense of urgency. He's saying, the earth as we know it is going to end. And then he's basically not only holding himself up as the answer, but he's basically without saying, I'm Jesus. He's kind of basically saying he's Jesus.

Randy Bell [00:32:25] He says he's Jesus. He says the same spirit that possessed that vehicle, that's the word they had for bodies 2000 years ago, is here. And you'll have to decide. He's pretty explicit about it.

John Dehlin [00:32:38] Yeah. So that's a red flag, right?

Randy Bell [00:32:40] Yeah, it's a red flag. And T also proclaimed that she was God the Father. So you literally have two people. I call it the big lie. These high demand groups tell whopping big stories that are just baffling. And one being that T is God and Doe is Jesus. These are their big lies.

John Dehlin [00:33:04] So let's go ahead and go on to some of their key doctrines.

Randy Bell [00:33:09] Yeah, well, it was a blend of Christianity. We may see some clips where they would kind of start with, with like biblical passages from the Sermon on the Mount and then they would morph into, well, Ti and Doe say this. So they would blend everything along with UFOs. They were really into sci fi, mysticism, psychic powers. We already talked about T being God and Doe being Jesus. But they had what they called the human individual metamorphosis or hymn. And that was part of their languaging that were going to change into

Guest [00:33:46] a

Randy Bell [00:33:46] new age and follow the Hale Bopp Comet. So that was the gist of their doctrines.

John Dehlin [00:33:53] And I guess he had psychic powers or claimed to have psychic powers.

Randy Bell [00:33:58] Yeah, he claimed to not only speak for God, he claimed that he was Jesus himself. So when you spoke to Doe, according to him, you were tying to Jesus himself.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] And then I guess he, you know, claimed to be the solution to all of society's problems.

Randy Bell [00:34:16] Yeah, the group really genuinely believed the world was going to be recycled. That was their word, recycled. And that this little band of 39 people had all the answers for all of humanity. So there's kind of a very grandiose

John Dehlin [00:34:28] image of themselves, but also I guess a Christian bent.

Randy Bell [00:34:33] Oh, very much. I mean, I watched all the Christian videos and on their website they had. And then on the right is the screen grab I had from their website. It's active today where they have biblical passages that purportedly support, you know, their position. So according to them, the Bible supported them.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] Yeah. So this flyer says T and do the Father and Jesus, Heaven's Gate, UFO two witnesses. It's got the word second coming there. So it's kind of like Christianity fan fiction.

Randy Bell [00:35:04] Yeah, it would sound, to the typical mainstream Christian, a lot of those buzzwords would sound very familiar.

John Dehlin [00:35:10] Okay, okay. And we referenced earlier that they gave all their followers new names and new identities.

Randy Bell [00:35:16] Yeah, new name, new identities. You left the old life behind, including your family. And they had some pretty wonky names. But.

John Dehlin [00:35:27] Yeah, explain these names. So it's W, K, N O D Y R, S O D Y. What's that?

Randy Bell [00:35:33] Well, these are the new names of two of the members and they were very proud of them. I don't even know how to pronounce them, quite honestly, but they don't really follow normal fanatics.

John Dehlin [00:35:43] And then appearance wise, we talk about high demand groups, control of behavior and appearance. What was their appearance like if you had to describe it?

Randy Bell [00:35:53] Well, they dressed very. In a kind of a peculiar way. If you saw them walking down the street, you would say, that's an interesting group there. You're not maybe not sure of it. Their grooming was the same with kind of the bopped hair, clean shaven, and kind of these schmocks that were buttoned up to the neck. So they had a whole new thing with both their names and the look. And they were very strict on their grooming rules too.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] Yeah. Okay, and what's this patch about?

Randy Bell [00:36:28] Well, this has kind of brought the group together. They had a patch, the away team. And you could actually still buy these on ebay today. I mean, it was. It was just kind of a name badge, if you will, to identify themselves as belonging to the group. And they all wore them proudly on their uniforms.

John Dehlin [00:36:48] Okay, a patch.

Randy Bell [00:36:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:51] All right. Okay, so we've got another video now, I believe, where one of their followers is talking.

Randy Bell [00:37:05] Yeah. And listen to the tone. Not just the words, but, but the tone of it.

John Dehlin [00:37:08] Okay, let's go and roll it.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:37:19] Okay, we have Wind Doty with us and Wyn Doty, I believe you were one of the first ones to become part of the class in this vehicle, Is that correct?

Video Clip 2 [00:37:29] Yes, it is. And I'd like to really tell everyone out there that there is no greater gift that has been given to the world than what we and the next level have brought to you. And it's there for you if you seek it out.

Video Clip 2 [00:37:53] We all have our own expression on what this has meant to us. And I probably can't say it, of course, any better than anyone has already said it. We all feel very emotional at this time and would really like to thank our older members, the next level, and for everything that they have given to us, we feel so we are an away team. We came down here to do a task and what they have given to us to take back, to take on new vehicles that are viable in that next level.

Video Clip 2 [00:38:31] You have to realize that because we are becoming in service with that next level, how much more after graduating here and learning what we have learned from them in order to be a part of the service of the next level means to that for future human existence. How much of service that we can be to you by going through what we have gone through? If you can just forget the negative, think of the positive. Because like everyone has expressed the media, the lower forces will take this and try to do something else with it. But know that we are happy in what we have done, what we have grown to.

Video Clip 2 [00:39:22] We are going home so that we can be of service to future civilizations for all of you. And this is what we strive for.

John Dehlin [00:39:32] All right, so one thing, a couple things I'm noticing very flat affect, occult identity. You know, appearance wise, they're looking very androgynous. Agender, the women have like bowl cuts with bangs and okay, you know, shirts buttoned up to the top. And they're not seemingly expressing their own identities, their own authentic expressions. They're just sort of monotone repeating back what they've learned.

Randy Bell [00:40:06] Exactly. One of the playbook rules was to take your old identity and toss it in the garbage and take on the new identity of the group. And you are literally repeating and parroting what you've heard in these numerous meetings and messages. So that kind of comes across, at least to me.

John Dehlin [00:40:29] Yeah. Okay, so what's this next slide about?

Randy Bell [00:40:33] Well, these are the flyers that went all over and this is what they did to recruit people.

John Dehlin [00:40:37] Go ahead and read a little of it.

Randy Bell [00:40:40] This is UFOs. Why are they here? What did they come for? When will they leave?

John Dehlin [00:40:45] So they're kind of tapping into the UFO curiosity?

Randy Bell [00:40:48] Yeah, very much.

John Dehlin [00:40:48] And that was kind of big in the 70s with like E.T. and Close Encounters of the Third Kind and Star Trek.

Randy Bell [00:40:54] And that was one of their approved TV shows.

John Dehlin [00:40:56] Oh, they had approved lists?

Randy Bell [00:40:57] Yeah, they had approved lists of R rated movies were out. In fact everything was out except for this short list of approved TV shows.

Randy Bell [00:41:05] Got it.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] Okay. Okay. And then there's a video clip of the body being a vehicle.

Randy Bell [00:41:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:12] All right, let's hear what Doe has to say.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [00:41:19] We came from that time that space entered this one. When we came, we had to take human bodies. We didn't take them as entrance, we came into them in the mid-70s. My partner T and I came into our vehicles a few years before we began to help these come into their bodies. We call them vehicles. And now it's time for us to leave the vehicles that we entered in the 70s. And you will likely or many of you that might see this tape will say, what do you mean, leave your bodies, our vehicles? Well, actually, these aren't our bodies, our vehicles. We borrowed these for the time that we were here for this specific task. And the task was not only to bring in information about that evolutionary kingdom level really quickly.

Video Clip 3 [00:42:23] Okay, so I think I get a.

Video Clip 3 [00:42:25] Since this is March 9th, I'm just

John Dehlin [00:42:26] going to note that this is eerily reminding me of the weird Chad Dabel and Lori Vallis stuff. It seems like once you start teaching people that whatever they are is them, but instead there's a spiritual them and then a physical them, there's a dark side to how that can be used to make people feel like this isn't the only life they get. But instead, bodies and even death can be expendable. And I'm not saying it's deadly in all cases, obviously, but it's troubling.

Randy Bell [00:43:04] Yeah. And what I've noticed, John, with Heaven's Gate, and I picked up on it right away when I was working on it, is they didn't have breaks. They'd have these notions put into motion, but there was nobody ever saying, you're kind of going too far. Extremism. There was no such thing as extremism. You know, once you got going, you could just keep going and going and going to the point where you're just so detached from reality because there's no breaks. There's nobody to say you're taking it too far. Knock it off.

John Dehlin [00:43:35] Yeah. All right. And then we're continuing this theme of sex, money and power.

Control of Behavior, Sexuality, and Daily Life

Randy Bell [00:43:40] Yeah, yeah. The sex was the castration. We're going to talk more about that. And the absolute. They were absolutely controlling when it came to sex in terms of absolutely zero sexual activity of any kind. And they were obsessed on that point. If there's a number one daily rule, that was probably it. The power was kind of the elitism. We're right, everybody else is wrong. And also, I think that doe's ability to have such control over people that they would contemplate suicide. That's power. It's a dark power, but that's power. And then money.

Randy Bell [00:44:25] They started out very humbly, bouncing around college campus rooms that they rented and then campgrounds. But once they started developing websites and they started getting inheritances and so forth, the owner of the Heaven's Gate mansion told me that they always paid their rent right on time, in cash. He loved them as tenants. He had no idea what they were going to do to his house in terms of the damage that came but in terms of tenants, they were flush with cash and money was no problem.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] Yeah. Okay. And then it looks like, you know, this is sounding something familiar. You've got a clip where it says pray about it.

Randy Bell [00:45:06] Yeah. As a tbm. Because I was working on this case as a true believer member of the Mormon Church. This struck me big time when I heard it. So here we go.

John Dehlin [00:45:18] All right.

Guest [00:45:21] Part. It would leave this atmosphere. I hope for your sake that you at least ponder this, that you go into the privacy of your closet. Don't ask your neighbors, your friends, what they think of this. You go see if you can connect with the purest, highest source that you might consider God and say, what about this? Is this for real? Is this for me? If it is, then give me the strength. Strength. Because as soon as you tell anyone else, they will be used as the instruments to have you not believe, to have you stay in this world and wait for heaven on earth.

John Dehlin [00:46:16] Okay, that's really disturbing because that's exactly how as a missionary, Mormon missionary, I taught people to know that what I was saying was true. And that's how the church taught me to know what was true.

Randy Bell [00:46:26] Right.

John Dehlin [00:46:27] Is by praying about it. So if he's saying that to his followers, it makes me.

Guest [00:46:31] This is a very exciting time.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] It makes me question the method a little bit.

Randy Bell [00:46:35] The method is dead ringer for what these high demand groups use. And the way to cut through it in my mind is Aristotle taught logos, pathos and ethos, and I added duos, meaning you look at things ethically and what's going on is not ethical. People are. There's undue influence. People join the group not knowing the full agenda by a long shot. It wasn't logical. None of this stacks up logically. It was all pathos. It was all 100% emotion. And that's what drove Heaven's Gate. And then he said exactly the opposite of what I would say. He said, don't ask people about it. I would say, do ask people about it. Question. What? What I say question what Doe says we should all be asking questions and looking at both sides of the story. So it was right out of the playbook of emotional elevation, that kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:47:36] Okay. Okay. So here's another clip we have of how to know the truth based on Heaven's Gate. Is that right?

Randy Bell [00:47:44] Well, this is. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:46] Should I play it? Sure. Okay. This was a tragic loss of life.

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [00:47:54] Why did these 39 people believe that

Video Clip 4 [00:47:56] Applewhite was the true messiah?

Video Clip 4 [00:47:59] What convinced them that Applewhite's Message was true. Why did they take their life? Let's take a look at the method

Video Clip 4 [00:48:05] he used to convince his new recruits

Video Clip 4 [00:48:07] that he was the true Messiah.

Video Clip 4 [00:48:09] The mind that was in Jesus. What that mind is in me. At least ponder this. That you go into the privacy of your closet. Don't ask your neighbors, your friends what they think of this. You go see if you can connect with the purest, highest source that you might consider God and say, what about this? Is this for real? Is this for me? If it is, then give me the strength. Because as soon as you tell anyone else, they will be used as the instruments to have you not believe. We hope that your thoughts will be of our Father's kingdom. Thank you. Did this technique work?

Video Clip 4 [00:49:09] And I knew. My soul knew that it. What I been searching for a long time. And I knew it even before I read it. And I knew when I got those statements, I just couldn't stop reading because I knew. And ever since I've been in the class, there's never been a doubt.

Video Clip 4 [00:49:32] Like, when I first met them, I knew that what they had to say was true. It wasn't something they said. It was something that I knew inside me. I felt.

Video Clip 4 [00:49:40] It was like

Video Clip 4 [00:49:43] I had known this,

Video Clip 4 [00:49:44] the material they were talking about.

Video Clip 4 [00:49:46] And it was like a recognition. I feel extreme

Video Clip 4 [00:49:53] gratitude and. And thankfulness to my older members, T&do. It was instant recognition for me when I Met T&DO in Walthorpe over 21 years ago. And there was never a doubt in my mind. I just wish that people out there could understand how much we feel and know this is real, this is not a fantasy. I know I didn't have to believe.

Video Clip 4 [00:50:18] I knew.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] Oh, man, that's so triggering as a Mormon.

Randy Bell [00:50:23] Yeah.

Randy Bell [00:50:23] It's disturbing.

John Dehlin [00:50:24] Yeah. Just because this was a tragic. Just because that they could. They could sound very Mormon. Switch out the leader and switch out the doctrine, switch out the names.

Randy Bell [00:50:35] Everything else remains. And it's. It is what it is.

John Dehlin [00:50:38] Yeah. Yeah. That's troubling. Okay. All right. So that's kind of part one. Now you wanted to talk about their operations.

Randy Bell [00:50:46] Yeah, they. They had. They were systematized. They had a kind of a handbook of instructions. They had their daily vitamins at 7:22am it didn't answer why 7:22am that's the rule. Time in the bathroom was limited to six minutes.

John Dehlin [00:51:03] That's sounding like Jodi Hildebrandt restricting her niece from being in the bathroom too long out of a concern that she might masturbate.

Randy Bell [00:51:11] That's exactly what I suspected with Heaven's Gate as well. Yeah, same thing.

John Dehlin [00:51:16] So this obsession of controlling sex.

Randy Bell [00:51:17] Yeah, very, very controlling.

John Dehlin [00:51:19] And if he was, if he was suppressed with sort of self loathing for his being gay, he would be denying himself sex and he would want to deny everyone else sex too.

Guest [00:51:32] Maybe.

Randy Bell [00:51:32] Yeah, no, it's part of the control. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And then their toothpaste was limited to a quarter of the Brussels of the toothbrush. If you're a man, you were shaving only down, you never shaved up. And their eggs were scrambled, dry and not browned. I mean, they had just endless checklists of really kind of trivial things that everybody had to be very obedient to. And by the way, the more you were obedient, the more status you had within the group.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] Got it. What are these 17 steps?

Randy Bell [00:52:02] Well, this is a screen grab just from the website a few days ago. And I'm not going to go through all 17 steps, but number one says, can you follow instructions without adding your own independence? In other words, interpretation. Yeah, or interpretation. Excuse me. Excuse me. Yeah. The thinking was done for you and you were to obey. And then number eight was the more toothbrush thing we just talked about. Number 11 was, do you needlessly ask questions when the answer is obvious? I mean, if you read through these lists, your mind gets numb with all the control and all the contradictory flow of continual rules.

John Dehlin [00:52:41] Here's a few more. I'll read trusting my own judgment or using my own mind. Those are offenses.

Randy Bell [00:52:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:48] So it's an offense to trust your own judgment, use your own mind. It's an offense to criticize or find fault with classmates or teachers. So no criticism. And then it's an offense to have inappropriate curiosity.

Randy Bell [00:53:01] That's a red flag, whatever that is. Yeah. No creative thought whatsoever.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] Yeah. And then they had like most high demand religions, restrictions on food and drink.

Randy Bell [00:53:11] Yeah. They had a very regimented thing. They would do their pancakes in just so and everything. And it was just obsessive. No alcohol. I know that they did drink tea and coffee, but they, you know, it's all highly regulated in terms of the day to day operations.

John Dehlin [00:53:30] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:53:32] And like I just said, you know, strict compliance with all the rules and rituals earns group status. That's how you, that's how you were looked up to.

John Dehlin [00:53:41] You move up the hierarchy. The more obedient you were and everybody

Randy Bell [00:53:45] knew what you were doing because you had a companion who literally had a clipboard and would keep track of your behavior and report it to the group. If you broke any of Those rules.

John Dehlin [00:53:53] Yeah. And then we've talked about their appearance. They've got these long sleeve shirts buttoned up at the top. The women have haircuts kind of like men. I mean, you know.

Randy Bell [00:54:03] Yeah, yeah. It was kind of gender was. Was downplayed big time. Yeah, it was actually in the rule book.

John Dehlin [00:54:10] Okay. And then it looks like we've got a clip here of him criticizing media or something to that effect.

Randy Bell [00:54:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:17] Should we play that?

Randy Bell [00:54:18] Sure. Okay.

Guest [00:54:22] The issue is you're going to hear about our exit in the news about these individuals who committed suicide. We're going to tell you that those who write that kind of information are ignorant of the evolutionary level above human. They don't know how else to write because they have none of that knowledge in them. Or if they had it at one time, they rejected it. Every creature has the will to become what they choose to become. And if they choose to grow and choose to move.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] That gives sense.

Randy Bell [00:55:05] Yeah, that gives you a sense. Just trust the media, you know, kind of in a pseudo way they take on the media. But you'll notice there's really no effort to add substance. The way the media said this is where they're specifically wrong. It's always in generalities.

Guest [00:55:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] So trust of distrust of outsiders, distrust of people trying to give fair and balanced information about your organization.

Randy Bell [00:55:30] Yeah. And media is one thing, but there was a distrust of your own family because the families that these folks came from were in many cases just normal, concerned parents and siblings. And you would distrust them as well.

Guest [00:55:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:44] So this next one's triggering for anyone who served a Mormon mission. Companions.

Randy Bell [00:55:49] Yeah. You were assigned with a companion. And what's extreme, John, is you were with them 24 7. Even when you went to the restroom, you were with a companion. And like I say, they kept track of you. They would watch you and you would watch them. And you got kind of brownie points when you tattled. It was that kind of setup.

John Dehlin [00:56:10] Yeah. That's scary. And problematic. And then numerous meetings.

Randy Bell [00:56:15] Oh my gosh. The front room, which I think I have a picture coming up of the front room. They had all these white chairs. And there were numerous meetings per day. There was never free time. You were always doing some chore or attending a meeting or working in turn money.

John Dehlin [00:56:34] Yeah. And then you've got here approved TV programs or movies. You've got some Star Trek photos. What's that in the bottom left? Do you know?

Randy Bell [00:56:41] That was a group photo when they went to a pier in San Diego. And then the bottom right photo actually that actress on Star Trek, her brother was a member of Heaven's Gate.

John Dehlin [00:56:49] Oh, wow.

Randy Bell [00:56:49] Yeah. So it's sad for her and her family, of course.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] Yeah. Okay. And then time logs.

Randy Bell [00:56:56] Yeah. If you were going to the store or any errand that you were meticulously controlled in terms of logging in and writing your whereabouts. This is the screenshot of their last day where they were logging out forever, but they kept that every day.

John Dehlin [00:57:14] It says it's so dark. It says, hasta la vista, baby. Ditto. And then never checking in.

Randy Bell [00:57:19] Yeah. Coming back. Never. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They knew what they were doing.

John Dehlin [00:57:22] Okay, do we need to talk about the mansion complex or.

Randy Bell [00:57:25] I think we kind of covered that one.

Randy Bell [00:57:27] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:57:28] So now I guess they received a lot of accusations that they were cults. Is that right?

Randy Bell [00:57:33] Yeah, they were called a cult and they addressed them. And there's a clip about it.

John Dehlin [00:57:39] If. Should we play the clip it go for it.

Randy Bell [00:57:41] All right.

Guest [00:57:48] Ignored. Or we've been called a UFO cult, or we've been called some new age cult or, you know, you name it, whatever cult you want to call it, We've been called that. We're none of those things, but we can understand why someone would call us that when they do not have and have not been given the knowledge to see us for who we are and recognize what we can offer you. We didn't come here to blow ourselves up. We're unblown. While we're in the human kingdom. We could not be in more modest circumstance than to have on human suit of clothes for the time that we are here now. We're about to step out of the human clothes that we are wearing.

John Dehlin [00:58:34] So in some sense, they're not defensive. That seems like a smarter reaction than being all defensive and saying, we're not a cult. We're like, yeah, we understand why people think that, but they're just not enlightened.

Randy Bell [00:58:46] Yeah, yeah. There's eyes. Well, you know, kind of a pat on the head. And you're ignorant and you don't have our advanced knowledge. We have the advanced knowledge, that kind of thing. In a way, I kind of admire Doe for being the leader to actually address stuff rather than dish it off on apologists and never address the issues. But in another way, I don't buy his arguments by a long shot because again, he's not addressing the specifics of what the accusations are. So it kind of runs two ways.

John Dehlin [00:59:19] Yeah. All right, well, and this is going to sound a little familiar to the Mormons. They were industrious and professional.

Randy Bell [00:59:27] Yeah, that's the main room. That's the room where they had their meetings. I cleared out the chairs, and I didn't want the big reminder for all the brokers and agents and lawyers coming by. But that was the main room. And you can see it's quite plush. It's high end. That's how they lived.

John Dehlin [00:59:48] Yeah. Okay. And then they were kind of obsessive. Julia mentioned that all the cupboards were labeled. And what's this photo?

Randy Bell [00:59:56] Well, these are pictures I took. I mean, on all the shelves, there was never a question of where anything went. And every light switch, every socket was labeled. And I was walking through the house once with a Wall Street Journal reporter, and she says, do you know why they've labeled everything? And I said, no, I don't know. And she said, well, it's because they're trying to prevent you from thinking for yourself even about the most mundane things. The thinking has been done. And so that was part of their tactic, was label, organize everything. So there's no question about any decision whatsoever.

John Dehlin [01:00:32] And there's always in a high demand religion, kind of sacred language where things are renamed. And so I'm guessing also they gave special names to normal things. Different names.

Randy Bell [01:00:42] Yeah. Bathrooms, the bath chamber. They had new language on everything. For a brand new person, it would probably sound very confusing. The next level vehicles, on and on.

John Dehlin [01:00:53] And then you've got symbolism here.

Randy Bell [01:00:54] Yeah. So this is their logo. And they're very big on their logo. And, you know, obviously Heaven's Gate, you see a keyhole kind of portion of the artwork. But to them, they had a secret behind this symbol. And it was really representative of the birth canal, the vaginal birth canal. So that was kind of their inside secret, what their logo was about. That they were there was this rebirth, you know, into the next level and yada yada, with their doctrine.

John Dehlin [01:01:26] Okay. All right, well, we've got another video clip of. These video clips are great, by the way, about how we identify. Anything you want to say about setting it up?

Randy Bell [01:01:36] No, let's just. Let's do it.

John Dehlin [01:01:38] All right.

Guest [01:01:41] Identity. We identify ourselves not by the suit that we wear, but by the mind that we are. The knowledge that we have, we actually identify with that mind, not with the suit of clothes. My partner and I had to leave bodies of in the evolutionary level above human. We had to leave those bodies in order to, in other words, set those bodies aside in order to come and incarnate in these bodies. Remind you again, we're not talking about at birth of the body. We talk about we incarnated into these bodies in the 70s and the early 70s and then helped these who had come for the specific purpose of this learning experience and helping us offer this information to others who might have some of that mind in them, given to them from that evolutionary level.

Guest [01:02:41] In other words, periodically that level comes in close enough and offers a graduation class, offers life out of this evolutionary level into that evolutionary level. And we're at the end of that time. Now, since we are about to leave and I said that we're at the end of that time, it doesn't mean that there might not possibly.

John Dehlin [01:03:06] What do you want to hear?

Randy Bell [01:03:08] He's just talking about how they identify. And then he gets into this jargon about entering reincarnating in the 1970s and then moving on to the next sphere. It's just they're not identifying with reality. They've kind of dismissed reality, and they just have this, you know, frankly, bizarre narrative that identity has replaced your prior identity. If you had once been a schoolteacher, a firefighter, or whatever you were, that identity is now consumed with this new identity.

John Dehlin [01:03:46] Got it. Okay, let's move on to part three, which is Heaven's Gates culture.

Leader Worship, Love Bombing, and Group Identity

Randy Bell [01:03:52] Yeah, they were very much into leader worship. Doe would say, follow me, and. And the people did. If you broke too many of their rules, you were kicked out of the group. They would excommunicate lots of people. In fact, I'd say about 80% of their group left, leaving about 20% that stayed to the end. But it was strict obedience and loyalty to the members and then member, because, of course, Doe ended up going solo after T died.

John Dehlin [01:04:27] Okay, so leader worship. Any organization that has you kind of worship your leader is a red flag.

Randy Bell [01:04:33] Yeah, I mean, they would give lip service to Jesus, but it was. It was quickly you got into, you know, the people you just adored, and that was Ti and do.

John Dehlin [01:04:45] Okay, well, let's go ahead. I guess it's a problem when you're worshiping Ti and Do and then T dies. So let's watch a. Let's watch a video on that.

Randy Bell [01:04:54] Yeah,

Guest [01:04:57] the tape. I want you to see the class that's sitting in front of me, and I'm very proud of these students of the kingdom of heaven, of the kingdom of God, of the evolutionary level above human. They're about to leave, and they're excited about leaving. My old member was with me for this task for 10 years, and then it was the right time for my older member to return to the evolutionary level above human. And in a few days, I'm going to see my older member and the crew members that work with my older memory. And I'm very excited about that. I will be very glad to be shed of this suit of clothes that I am wearing. Everything that we.

John Dehlin [01:05:52] I'm getting a little bit of Jehovah's Witness vibes there in the sense that at some point, multiple times in the history of the Jehovah's Witnesses, somebody forecast a date when Jesus would come. And then the date came and went and Jesus didn't come. And then they've got to figure out what to do with kind of unmet expectations. Yeah. Is that, was that similar to what

Randy Bell [01:06:13] happened with Dead On Parallel? Because they would repeat repeatedly the cult since the 70s set dates that the spacecraft was going to come pick them up. And they didn't pick them up. And they went out when they were in the mansion. They went and bought a telescope to look and actually see the spacecraft following the Hale Bopp Comet and they set up the telescope and they didn't see a spacecraft. So they took it back to the store and returned it because it was broken. So there was this whole series of botched prophecies and predictions and scientific explanations that just came up empty over and over and over again. So I think that they were kind of forced into a corner with suicide because none of the non suicide options were taking, you know, were happening. So that's kind of how it rolled out.

John Dehlin [01:07:10] Okay. And then a really common trait of all high demand religions is just elitism. Right. We're better than everybody.

Randy Bell [01:07:16] Yeah. There's certificates at every, you know, when you passed a class or whatever, there was this elitism and this one kind of went over the top because there's the words private and no trespassing. You know, this is like top secret stuff.

John Dehlin [01:07:34] Yeah. And then they have a plan of salvation as well.

Randy Bell [01:07:37] Yeah, they do, they do.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] Should we hear about that?

Randy Bell [01:07:38] Yeah, let's hear about it.

John Dehlin [01:07:39] Plan of salvation. Okay,

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [01:07:44] Clearer. The thing that would disturb me is to have you think that we think or that we're proposing such an idea that if you want to move from the human evolutionary level to the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven evolutionary level above human, that all you have to do is get out of your vehicle, get out of your body prior to a natural death or an accidental death, what humans call a natural death or accidental death, and that certainly isn't true.

Video Clip 5 [01:08:18] I mean, someone can leave their body or what a human calls someone can die. I don't. That term just disturbs me so. Because if that individual is that individual, then they are something more than. Than the body. So I can't imagine thinking when someone dies. So even in speaking of humans, we'll speak of what happens when a human leaves their body.

Video Clip 5 [01:08:45] Well, the term that is so familiar to us and that we're so comfortable with is that when we come into a body, we incarnate in the body, or we incarnate, we are in the body. So we have incarnated, we've moved into flesh. So we incarnate. When the individual leaves the flesh or leaves the body, then they are a discarnate.

Video Clip 5 [01:09:12] A discarnate. So when you're in body, you're incarnate. When you're out of body, it's a discarnate. And of course, there are many, many discarnates in the atmosphere all the time. There are discarnates. Even the mind, the spirit of lower animal forms are going to the discarnate. And don't forget that the evolutionary level above human.

John Dehlin [01:09:38] And I'll just say, you know, and we're just kind of playing some of these clips to give you a sense, because they go on and on and on. But my concern for me, it's a red flag. Anybody who says they know anything about the afterlife, let alone that there's spirits or what happens when we die, that just feels like a con as old as time. Because we all are worried about death, we all are sad about death. We don't want to think that we end, that we won't see our loved ones again. So anyone can say, hey, I know the answers. Give me money. Follow me. Give me sex, money and power, and I'll help you feel better about the afterlife.

Randy Bell [01:10:14] Yeah, well said. And then on top of it, you'll notice that that clip in the prior clip, there's this kind of glee about dying, how happy and exuberant they are about dying. Well, that doesn't square with the human condition. And what Jesus said is mourn with those who mourn. I mean, Jesus himself acknowledged that death involves a lot of grief, but here they're trying to bypass all that and make it this happy thing. And that's. That's not reality.

John Dehlin [01:10:48] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then there's the. One of the traits that Luna Lindsey Corbin identified. Love bombing.

Randy Bell [01:10:56] Yeah, they were big love bombers. The people that met him, that I met with said that they were just always smiling and. And happy, and they were just constantly giddy about everything. And when you walked in the room, they were just so excited that you were there. Just Classic love bombing.

John Dehlin [01:11:17] Okay. At least to get you in, right? To kind of recruit you.

Randy Bell [01:11:21] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:23] Okay. And then there's the insider. Outsider.

Randy Bell [01:11:27] Yeah, very much insider. Outsider uniforms. We've got the answers. We have advanced knowledge. Join our group and you can get in on the advanced knowledge yourself. So that was all part of the shtick.

John Dehlin [01:11:39] Okay. These all seem pretty classic. All right, so the next video clip we have is. It says T rsody tersodi. Is that.

Randy Bell [01:11:48] Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [01:11:49] All right, let's roll the clip.

▶ Video Clip 6

Video Clip 6 [01:11:58] Okay. We have Thursodi with us, and I believe that he chose the name thirstily

Video Clip 6 [01:12:03] because you wanted to be reminded of

Video Clip 6 [01:12:05] your thirst for next, next level knowledge.

Video Clip 6 [01:12:07] Is that correct?

Video Clip 6 [01:12:08] That's right. I don't. My vehicles or this vehicle that I'm wearing is, you know, pretty nervous, pretty scared. Not really sure what I'm going to say. I guess, you know, what I wanted to maybe address more was how I feel about this step that I'm taking. And some may say, well, boy, it's quite an irreversible step.

Video Clip 6 [01:12:32] And I just wanted to say that I'm familiar with irreversible steps. And tell you what, I don't know if you remember Doe talking about that some students had chosen had proven to him that they desired to have their vehicles neutered. And I'm one of those students that did that. And I can't tell you how free that has made me feel. I've been here long enough from the time I had that operation to know the freedom that it offers me.

Video Clip 6 [01:13:02] And I'm just so thankful for that opportunity. And in all reality, I can't see that this next step that I'm prepared to take and am looking forward to taking is anything more than a clinical operation. And having seen the benefit that the neutering has had for my consciousness, for my ability to grow and be closer to my older member that I can't. And full. I can't see any other way but to fully expect that laying down this vehicle is going to be anything but great for me.

John Dehlin [01:13:35] Yeah. So clearly he's asking them to suppress their sexuality. Yeah, there is, and I've read a little bit about this. He was tormented that he couldn't keep the rules. I'm sure masturbation was not okay. And in this case, we've got the extreme example of him offering himself up to castrate himself so that he could no longer be tormented by the rule that should have never been given to him in the first place. Yeah.

Randy Bell [01:13:59] This clip is kind of Unique because we've heard about the castration, but here's putting a face to the actual person. And what is also disturbing, he's giddy about it. He's thrilled about it, and can't wait to have another procedure to leave his vehicle. I mean, it's just, you know, it's mind blowing. It's, you know, your head wants to explode with the insanity.

John Dehlin [01:14:21] And my sense is it wasn't even that they were asked to do this. They volunteered it as a sign of commitment.

Guest [01:14:28] Yeah.

Randy Bell [01:14:28] Doe, when he approached this whole castration idea, it wasn't a mandate. It was just a suggestion. We suggest you do it. And once that suggestion was made by a leader that they worshiped, it grew into a commandment pretty much where there was actually a competition who could get castrated first. But it started as a suggestion.

John Dehlin [01:14:49] Yeah. Okay, here we've got another common cult tactic, which is insider language. We referenced this a bit earlier.

Randy Bell [01:14:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:57] Here's some examples.

Randy Bell [01:14:58] Yeah. Heaven's Gate is the class. The community is the craft. The body is the vehicle. Afterlife is the next level. The kitchen is the neutral lab. The laundry room is the fiber lab. The bedroom's the rest chamber. Then the suicide is the exit. I mean, and this is just a sampling. They had new language for lots of things.

John Dehlin [01:15:20] And I guess that helps make you feel special. It helps set you apart. It kind of. I'm thinking of kind of a peculiar people.

Randy Bell [01:15:28] Right.

John Dehlin [01:15:29] It just sets you apart. Gives you an identity that you can be proud to have.

Randy Bell [01:15:33] Yeah. Yeah. And you're elite because you knew what all this language meant. You were on the inside. You're an insider.

John Dehlin [01:15:39] It makes you feel like you're an insider and belong. That's great. And then, of course, there's sexual control.

Randy Bell [01:15:44] Yeah. I think we've covered a lot of this, but, you know, any sexual activity is forbidden. And they took it to the nth degree. They had kind of a masturbation fascination. They really fixated on that for some reason. It's all focused on men. I hadn't seen seen anything related to the women. I don't know what happened on that side of the equation. And they did both physical and chemical castrations. So it's part of the deal.

John Dehlin [01:16:09] Yeah. Okay. All right. So the next point they're making is about Jesus borrowing a body.

Randy Bell [01:16:17] Yeah,

▶ Video Clip 7

Video Clip 7 [01:16:20] about was important. Jesus, 2,000 years ago, did exactly the same thing. Incarnated in his late 20s. And that's when he entered it. That's when he borrowed it. That's when he took it.

Video Clip 7 [01:16:35] Over.

Video Clip 7 [01:16:36] And then he laid it down when he said, I have the authority to lay this body down, take this body up. In the same way we had authority because we were of the evolutionary level above humanity. We had authority to put on this body as we did in the 70s, and now we have the authority to lay down this body. It is not ours. It does not jive with us. It has desires and impulses that are hideous to us. And we have to get control of that. We have to have that in such control that it does not interact with, interfere with us. Or we do our best to have that in that degree of control.

John Dehlin [01:17:21] All right, so what's he saying there?

Randy Bell [01:17:22] Well, there they're trying to blend their language in and blame it on attach it to Jesus. I don't think Jesus said anything about incarnating, but that's what these guys do is they take their distorted view of the world and they try and attach it to Jesus or some other historical figure here.

Comparing Cult Dynamics to Mainstream Religion

John Dehlin [01:17:44] And Randy, this is something that I've been thinking a lot about lately, and I know that, you know, I assume you still identify as a Christian Christ.

Randy Bell [01:17:52] I'm a non institutionalized Christian.

John Dehlin [01:17:54] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:17:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:55] And so this isn't a dig on Christianity or any religion. When I, you know, I've been, I've been called a lot to talk in the media about the Chad Dabo, Lori Vallo thing. And Mormons of course, want to say, well, they're not Mormon. Chadaba and Lori Valo were like some weird cult that broke off from Mormonism. But the truth is, everything they teach is rooted in Mormon doctrine and theology. And I just realized that there's something about Mormonism that can point people in really dark directions. Because once you start with some of these supernatural claims, conditioning that there are prophets and ways emotionally to tap into a holy ghost and peculiar doctrines.

John Dehlin [01:18:40] A lot of these really dangerous things are just one or two steps beyond the original Mormon programming. And I guess there's always a little part of me that feels like Christianity is the foundation of Mormonism. In that sense, it can be a gate for people to do dark and disturbing things one or two steps beyond the fundamental Christian teachings.

Randy Bell [01:19:03] I couldn't agree more. I mean, yeah, I identify as a Christian, but I would be the first to say that there's nothing more embarrassing. A lot of variants of Christianity. And I thought that Buddhism was just super cool. And then I went to India with Sam Young and some other guys and we saw some stuff there that was really disturbing. These gigantic solid gold idols where things were monetized in an amazing fashion. So I think you can take anything and like I say, there's no breaks. Nobody's saying hold off. You know, once you put these ideas into motion, like the castration thing or Christianity without breaks and a sense of checks and balances, it can go really wacky really quick. I'm the first to admit it.

John Dehlin [01:19:51] Yeah.

Randy Bell [01:19:52] And it's embarrassing all the way around.

John Dehlin [01:19:55] Yeah. And I guess who, who applies the brakes? Because if, if there's a non denominational Christian that starts to develop weird beliefs and there's no even church structure to guide him other than the law, who's going to stop someone?

Randy Bell [01:20:09] Well, and they're all powered by emotion. That's why it's so important to inject some logic and ethics in it. Because if it's illegal, that's a no brainer, call the police. But those checks and balances aren't even there at that level because you're not taught about the logic and the ethics that should go into this decision. You're just talking about emotions all the time and how fervently you know things.

John Dehlin [01:20:31] Yeah, I guess the ultimate guard rails are educating people about the tactics and techniques of the tactics and techniques of cults in high demand religions. Because if people are informed then they can't be fooled.

Randy Bell [01:20:46] Very well said. And that's why I took the time to develop this episode and that's why I'm grateful for you, to you for talking about it. Because we're turning on the lights, we're calling people out on the. This stuff because it's wrong.

John Dehlin [01:20:59] Okay, so what's this ACDC thing?

Randy Bell [01:21:01] Yeah, this is a concept I came up with because as I'm working on Heaven's Gate, I'm noticing this acdc, this back and forth current. One minute you're being told you're in the chosen group, you're God's elite. God couldn't be more proud of you. On and on and on, just puffing you up and just total elitism. And the next minute you go to the next class and you're being shamed over this and that and that and the long checklist of things that everybody falls short on. Are you reading your scriptures every day? And it's this back and forth dynamic between positive and negative that has this very, this ability to just really grab and hold on to people being bounced back and forth between really negative feedback and really positive feedback.

John Dehlin [01:21:50] Elite and then shame. Elite and then shame.

Randy Bell [01:21:52] And I call it, it's alternating current positive and negative.

John Dehlin [01:21:55] That's good. Okay, and then what is no exit?

Randy Bell [01:21:59] Well, there is no way out of the group other than, you know, shame or, you know, taking your own life. This is actually. This picture was taken in Doe's bedroom. That is Doe. And that's, you know, it's grim and it's sad because on one hand, you know, it's easy to dismiss Heaven's Gate with a lot of language about, you know, nut jobs and just disparaging language. But mental illness is a real thing, and it's a sad thing. And I think we have to have a little bit of compassion for the fact that Doe was a diagnosed schizophrenic, and he organized his way to spread the disease, the mental disease, to encompass others. So it's just a sad, grim exit and sad end of the story.

John Dehlin [01:22:51] Yeah, it is. That's sad. All right, so here's the clip that says, from the kingdom of God.

Randy Bell [01:22:58] Okay?

▶ Video Clip 8

Video Clip 8 [01:23:01] And I say that when we say we came from distant space, that we're talking about what your religious literature would call the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God. And. And we came for the express purpose to offer a doorway to the kingdom of God at the end of this civilization, the end of this age, the end of this millennium.

Video Clip 8 [01:23:39] And now that we're about to return, just a few things we wanted to say to you. And of course, we are aware that if you have not been given an ingredient of knowledge, information by that kingdom, then you certainly will have no capacity to know that I'm telling you the truth or that this information has any validity.

Video Clip 8 [01:24:12] If you do know, when you hear what we're talking about and when you study the information that we're leaving behind, that it has truth in it. And if you see yourself as a part of it, then you have to respond according to what you feel.

Video Clip 8 [01:24:35] We came from that time, that space, entered this one. When we came, we had to take human bodies. We didn't take them as infants. We came into them in the mid-70s. My partner T and I came into our vehicles a few years before we began to help these come into their bodies. We call them vehicles.

Video Clip 8 [01:25:03] And now it's time for us to leave the vehicles that we entered in the 70s. And you will likely, or many of you that might see this tape will say, what do you mean, leave your bodies, Our vehicles?

Video Clip 8 [01:25:22] Well, actually, these aren't our bodies. Our vehicles. Vehicles. We borrowed these for the time that we were here for this specific task. And the task was not only to bring in information about that evolutionary kingdom level, but to give Us, the experience of working against the forces of what this evolutionary level, what the human evolutionary level at this time has become.

Video Clip 8 [01:25:53] And so it was a very good learning experience for us. And while it was a learning experience for us, it gave an opportunity for all who had ever received knowledge from that kingdom to have an opportunity to recognize us and this information and even move out of this kingdom and into the next level.

John Dehlin [01:26:19] Man, that's a lot of word salad. But it's dark because he's talking about everyone dying. And again, I'm just reminded of this zombie concept that Chad Davel and Lori Valo came up with, where if spirits are coming in and out of bodies, then maybe, maybe life isn't what we thought, and then maybe life can be expendable, depending on what religious theology you have.

Randy Bell [01:26:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:42] So in their case, it's. It's not death, it's graduation to the next level. And it's just spirits coming in and out of bodies. And maybe we'll go into other bodies where with Chad and Laurie, it's like we can kill these children or these spouses because they've been over taken by satanic spirits and it's not really them anymore. And again, Hinduism has reincarnation, Christianity has. Or Mormonism has this plan of salvation. But there's something problematic about teaching the spirit thing, I think.

Randy Bell [01:27:15] No, I think you're right. And also it is word salad. That's a great choice of words. But you'll notice if you really dissect what he's saying, he wanders in and out of saying things that sound pseudo good with things that are not just dark, they're the darkest. I mean, it's really profoundly mentally disturbed and frankly evil. So that's the thing the great lie is, always comes. The great lies, I should say, come with elements of truth. And that's why critical thinking is so essential to look at what is being said. Use ethics, use logic, use emotion, look both sides of the story, and then come to sensible decisions. But all of that is kind of out the window in terms of critical thinking with these groups.

John Dehlin [01:28:08] Yeah. Okay, well, this is dark. And so you've got some important lessons now. That's basically the theology, the doctrine, the characters and the practices and the policies.

Randy Bell [01:28:19] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:20] So now you've got some lessons.

Randy Bell [01:28:22] Yeah, I just kind of wrap up thoughts that, you know, to go with, I was in the kitchen, they put this note on the door. I did it. You know, they were wearing Nike shoes. I don't know if they were thinking of that, but. But you Know, of course, do it. You know, the Nike slogan.

John Dehlin [01:28:38] Just do it was the Nike slogan.

Randy Bell [01:28:39] Yeah, yeah, do it was the Nike slogan. And they said, we, you know, I did it.

John Dehlin [01:28:44] Wow.

Randy Bell [01:28:44] So I took a picture of that and, you know, when I was in the kitchen. But they were, you know, they were excited about it, which is, you know, it's just so outside of the. Outside of reason and sensibility. It's just shocking. And what somebody said. And I kind of agree. I'd attribute it if I knew who said it. But they said Heaven's Gate was a systematized mental illness disguised as a religion. I mean, it was. They called themselves a religion, but it wasn't. It was very, very dark.

John Dehlin [01:29:18] It reminds me of just how sick Jodi Hildebrandt was and just how much of a following she was able to get. And lots of people have looked at, like, Joseph Smith and wondered if he was bipolar, you know, if he had trauma, whatever it was. But. But you find out so many of these cult leaders are. Are mentally ill. Yeah. And they just kind of systematize mental illness and propagate it to their followers.

Randy Bell [01:29:45] They are mentally ill. And they also are very, very smart.

John Dehlin [01:29:50] Yeah.

Randy Bell [01:29:50] And they have a playbook that they all run from.

Recognizing Predatory and Manipulative Patterns

John Dehlin [01:29:53] So what's this predator shift about?

Randy Bell [01:29:55] Well, we kind of covered this where you start with mind, body and soul. But the pressure they all do.

John Dehlin [01:30:00] Like L. Ron Hubbard started with self improvement. Keith Ranieri with NXIVM started with self improvement. They all start with like, hey, don't you want to be happier, healthier, live a better life?

Randy Bell [01:30:11] There's nothing wrong with self improvement. But then they get into the whack part of it, and they extract out of it the sex, power and money. So always be aware of that, because I can tell you, having worked on numerous cases involving predators, that is their game plan.

John Dehlin [01:30:26] So in the case of Doe, he wasn't having sex, is that right?

Randy Bell [01:30:30] Well, when it says sex, it's not just the Jeffrey Epstein have sex seven times a day. It's also the extreme abolishment of sex

John Dehlin [01:30:39] or control of other people's sex.

Randy Bell [01:30:42] Yeah, but there's an obsession one way or another with sex.

John Dehlin [01:30:45] Like with Warren Jeffs when he was in jail not having sex. He's prohibiting all his followers from having sex.

Randy Bell [01:30:50] Yeah, exactly. That's the dynamic.

John Dehlin [01:30:53] Okay, what's three lies in your eye? I can guess.

Randy Bell [01:30:55] Well, you know, Dr. Martha Stout wrote a book called the Sociopath Next Door. She says in the middle of the book that if you catch somebody in three Lies, particularly lies where there was no reason to lie. You probably are dealing with a sociopath. These are people that are literally hardwired differently than you or I. If I tell a lie, I'm going to feel bad about it. I'm sure you're the same way. Well, normal people are. But sociopaths can lie and flatline a polygraph. So if anybody in your life or world is telling verifiable lies and you get three counts on it, get them out of your life. That's what Martha Stau says.

John Dehlin [01:31:39] Okay. All right. Seems like with the religion that's a really good policy for sure. Probably with people too. All right, so the next one you've got is masking. What's that?

Randy Bell [01:31:53] Yeah. For predators, it's all about optics. It's all about appearances. They all put on a really nice show, very polished up front. But with them, they want to keep those optics going. But behind the mask, there's really bad stuff going on. So I would say that I had a stake president call me once asking me to invest in a scheme. I knew it was a scheme and I just had the vibe of a scheme. And frankly, I didn't even return his phone call. Well, he went to prison. I mean, pay attention to your senses because they will tell you stuff. And when you override your senses because of somebody's position or power or authority, you're going in some bad directions.

John Dehlin [01:32:43] So if somebody's super smart or super handsome or super rich. Super. Got it all together. Be leery, you're saying.

Randy Bell [01:32:51] Yes. And John, the number one trait which will let you know and everybody know I'm not a sociopath is charm. These are very, very charming people and they really lay it on thick.

John Dehlin [01:33:03] Okay. So watch out for charmers.

Randy Bell [01:33:05] Yeah. Charm is the number one characteristic of a sociopath.

John Dehlin [01:33:08] Okay. All right. What's setting the bait?

Randy Bell [01:33:11] Setting the bait. All great lies have elements of truth. I just said it. And so, you know, just because somebody's talking about self help, I mean, that sounds great. Making money, that sounds great. With these multi level marketing things. Jesus. At least in my mind, sounds great. If you actually read what he says, it's a lot of great stuff. And you know, Buddhism sounds great with meditation and so forth. A lot of these things are great at their core, but. And they always start with these, these elements of truth. But then they start laying on. Once you see the layering, that's where you, you back off.

John Dehlin [01:33:49] Okay. All right, so watch out for people setting the bait.

Randy Bell [01:33:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:54] Ultimately they want your money or your Power or your sex, your money.

Randy Bell [01:33:59] Yes. Predators always set bait. Always. They start out with something good and then they go from there.

John Dehlin [01:34:06] They go for something bigger from you. Okay. Critical thinking. Yeah, yeah.

Randy Bell [01:34:10] This is. I've talked about this a few times, but here it is in a slide. Just egos is ethical and any crime should be reported to the police, period. It shouldn't be handled by the leaders. It should be reported to the police. Logos. Is it logical? I mean, does this make sense? Pathos, it's your vibe. It should resonate. I'm not dismissing ethics and then duos. I mean, Doe said don't talk to your friends and neighbors. I'm saying the opposite. Do check around and get checks and balances on what you're considering to do and get feedback from people you trust and respect. That's a really simplified but powerful approach to critical thinking.

John Dehlin [01:34:54] I love it. So I'm going to repeat it. So it's got to be logical and it's got to survive kind of critical thinking. It's got to feel good, you know, feel good inside, intrinsically to you. It's got to be legal.

Randy Bell [01:35:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:10] And then verify with external sources. I think defectors or people who leave an organization are probably the best source to know the things that the organization isn't likely willing to tell you.

Randy Bell [01:35:23] You should absolutely talk to defectors because they'll tell you another side of the story, whether you believe it or not. Do your own research. I started this whole presentation. Don't believe a word I say, but research what we say and that will get you hopefully on track.

John Dehlin [01:35:42] Okay. The next one is due diligence. I mean, most organizations, high demand or cults, they want to get you in quick before you had a chance to do your due diligence. So what are you saying?

Randy Bell [01:35:54] Well, there's a checklist here. Do they have open financials, open books, complete financial transparency? Check backgrounds, anybody. Like, I attended a church once where anybody that had any role with kids had a police check once a year. Not just once, but once a year. All the walls and doors were glass too deep. Leadership and any incident of anything remotely sketchy immediately went to the police. That's what a good ethical organization looks like.

John Dehlin [01:36:28] Okay.

Randy Bell [01:36:30] Get second opinions and speak with the critics, the past investors, the former members, do some homework rather than just going on emotion and getting caught up in emotion.

John Dehlin [01:36:40] Okay. And so deserters get their own slide.

Randy Bell [01:36:44] Yeah. We're kind of at the end talking about Heaven's Gate, but I think it's appropriate to pay respects to the moms and dads and siblings and friends of people that lost people. It's to Heaven's Gate because these were real deaths. There's real people that were deserted and a lot of grief. They left a wake of enormous damage. I mean, on the lesser side, Heaven's Gate sent a letter to my client saying, hey, we're really happy we've done you this great favorite because we've left you this shrine that's going to become invaluable and people will. They have these delusions that people would flock to the house and respect from all over the world and that would make my client very, very wealthy.

Family Estrangement and the Costs of Cult Membership

Randy Bell [01:37:32] Well, it was a delusion. He lost the house or I literally handed the keys back to the bank because that value was wiped out from what Heaven's Gate did. But that's just the money. The real thing are the people in the wake of their destruction and all their delusions.

John Dehlin [01:37:49] Got it. So when you say deserters, is that

Randy Bell [01:37:51] people leaving or what I'm saying is the people that deserted their families and joined the culture.

John Dehlin [01:38:01] Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. All right, so I guess this made People magazine, this made world news, right?

Randy Bell [01:38:10] Yeah, it did. And it was also kind of a silent death because the family members, their siblings, their sons, their daughters were still alive, but they were cut off from them. And it kind of reminds me, on a lesser scale of the sad image of seeing moms and dads sitting outside temples while their sons or daughters are inside getting married. There's kind of a silent death there. And it's not on the magnitude of we're talking about with Heaven's Gate, but it's there. And anytime you don't honor the family system despite beliefs, I mean, my gosh, they're just beliefs. Nobody really knows. My. I don't know, O meter is pegged far. Right. I don't know a lot of stuff. They're just beliefs. But to not honor the family unit over these beliefs, that's really profoundly sad.

John Dehlin [01:39:00] Yeah, yeah. Any organization that's divided husband from wife or child from parent, you know, is probably a dangerous organization. And, you know, shunning happens in a lot of high demand religions or cults. Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses are famous for it. Mormons do a softer kind of shunning oftentimes, but it can be still just as serious. So, yeah. Find a theology or religion or a belief structure or a value or a cause. Yeah. That doesn't try and separate you from your family even if you believe differently. Right. Especially if you Believe differently.

Randy Bell [01:39:39] Any healthy belief is able to get along just fine with any other healthy belief.

Undue Influence, Informed Consent, and Final Reflections

John Dehlin [01:39:44] Yeah, we started with this idea of informed consent and undue influence.

Randy Bell [01:39:48] Yeah. I mean, informed consent is, you know, what you're getting into versus undue influence is the is you don't know. You don't. You're signing up for something and you really don't know what you're signing up for.

John Dehlin [01:39:59] Yeah. And again, just because I'm understanding this mostly from my own Mormon context, how many black Mormon converts have I interviewed that were never told that the priesthood yen temple blessings were withhold from black people before they got baptized, you know, for 150 years in the church? How many converts were told that Joseph smith Smith had 30 wives, some as young as 14, married other men's wives? How many were shown the peep stone in the hat with the golden plates and told beforehand how the Book of Mormon was really translated? Pretty much none. I don't think I've ever met any.

Randy Bell [01:40:40] Pretty much none. You know, it's interesting you say that, John, because I just moved and I was unpacking some boxes. I had my old missionary discussions from England. I can absolutely guarantee none of those things were in the missionary discussions. Those are things we never told investigators. And looking back, that's wrong. People should know explicitly the history and what they're getting into and then if they wanted to join, join. But this is information that any reasonable person would want to know. Just like Doe didn't tell people he was diagnosed with schizophrenia and he met t in a mental hospital and he has a criminal record. These things are buried.

John Dehlin [01:41:23] Yeah. Which goes on to the slide of full disclosure kind of on one side and undue influence on the other. There's got to be integrity in the organization.

Randy Bell [01:41:32] Absolutely. Integrity is essential. If you don't have integrity, you catch somebody in even one lie more or less three, get them out.

John Dehlin [01:41:39] Yeah. I love full disclosure. Like any organization that's hiding its truth from you, I think we're kind of driving this point home very thoroughly.

Randy Bell [01:41:49] Right. And if you go to the Heaven's Gate website today and you can go there today, none of the stuff that we've been talking about today about the deaths. Well, about the true agenda, about the criminal background, about the mental illness diagnosis. None of that's on the website. It's not even there at all.

John Dehlin [01:42:09] Okay, that's a problem.

Randy Bell [01:42:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:12] And then you've got more full disclosure here.

Randy Bell [01:42:15] Yeah, there, there's the elements.

John Dehlin [01:42:17] Oh, those are the ones.

Randy Bell [01:42:18] Yeah. The castration.

John Dehlin [01:42:19] Let people know that castration might be required beforehand or that, like mass suicide and death. Let them know beforehand that might be required.

Randy Bell [01:42:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Randy Bell [01:42:31] For sure.

John Dehlin [01:42:31] Yeah, absolutely. And again, Joseph Smith had a criminal history. How many Mormons who converted to the church or how many Mormons raised in the church were ever taught that Joseph Smith had a criminal history?

Randy Bell [01:42:41] Well, and how many Mormons today don't know that? And how many Mormons today, if you even barely mention it, literally get up and run out of the room. I've literally talked to family members about things that are in the gospel topic essays. And the mere hint of one of those topics, I've seen them bolt out of the room.

John Dehlin [01:43:01] Yeah. Or claim that they were written by thieves who hijacked the website and whatever. Pirates or whatever. Yeah. All right, so this is the final slide. So you've got some final thoughts for everybody to help them understand.

Randy Bell [01:43:15] Final slide. That's a picture of me in Heaven's Gate. I think it was in Time magazine or something like that. But no cult member thinks that they're in a cult. Heaven's Gate, you saw the clips. That's why I put them in, is because they're talking about cults like they're a bad thing. But we're not a cult.

John Dehlin [01:43:33] Either they don't think they're in a cult or they somehow are weirdly proud to be in a cult. One of the two. Yeah. In Heaven's Gates case.

Randy Bell [01:43:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And coat's a loaded word. I don't know that it's a useful word, but it's certainly descriptive. Physically leaving a cult or any high demand organization or predatory system, that's what I call them, their predator systems does not get it out of your head. That's why people listen to John Dehlin episodes on a binge watching level, is because what we're doing is we're resetting the neurology to something based in reality and logical.

John Dehlin [01:44:12] It doesn't wash off.

Randy Bell [01:44:13] It does not wash off. And I came across a statistic in one of the books I read that it takes 27 exposures to false information to correct the neurology pathways in our thinking. So I think I'll just speak to myself. I got to be patient. You know, I have. You know, when you go through something, you get triggers and you got to be kind to yourself and, you know, go through things even more than once 27 times. And that's just an average. It could be more before you kind of finally are in a healthy place.

John Dehlin [01:44:53] Yeah. All right. Any other final thoughts?

Randy Bell [01:44:56] The bottom line is we're in a crazy world and we're talking politics and religion, philosophy, businesses, all kinds of things, and learn or pay attention to what are principled systems. There are good systems out there and be alert for predatory systems because they're everywhere. Steve Hasson's talked about how many cults come and go.

Randy Bell [01:45:21] They're everywhere. And I think if just having those rules in play is good, people would say that Heaven's Gate took lives, and it certainly did, in a very literal way. And the question, I'm not going to give the answer, but the question I think for anybody is, does Mormonism take your life?

Randy Bell [01:45:43] It has a different game plan. The game plan is not to eat poison laced pudding, but it arguably does suck your discretionary time and money from you over the longevity of your life. That's for people to make up their own minds about. But there's some interesting parallels there. I think one of my final thoughts is, and looking at Heaven's Gate, on a scale of 1 to 10, this is a 10. Where's the Mormon Church? Is it a 0? Is it a 1 or 2, a 3 or a 5? That's for people to make their own minds up on. But I just hope that this has been helpful to kind of, hey, look at some of these characteristics and think about this stuff a little bit.

John Dehlin [01:46:24] Yeah. And this is a thought I've been having for a long time. I remember when I was in that jubilee middle ground sort of debate between four ex Mormons and four Mormons and Cardan Ellis basically made the point, and I don't know if this made the final cut, but he made this point of like, Mormonism is not a cult. I'm from Southern California, I know a cult and it's Heaven's Gate and it ends in everyone dying. And I've long had the thought that, you know, that is the worst possible end.

John Dehlin [01:46:53] But there's something maybe equally or as pernicious about an organization that doesn't kill you quickly, but instead goes for the long con of basically extracting your identity, your money, your time, your reputation, not just for you, but of your siblings, your parents, your loved ones, your children for multiple generations. I don't know. You know, I don't think it's always clear which is worse.

John Dehlin [01:47:25] An organization that burns out with 20 or 30 people dead in, you know, five to 10 or 20 years, or an organization that recruits millions over several hundred years and extracts the resources out of the kind of like the Matrix, right? Yeah, people plugged into the Matrix and They just spend their lives extract, having their resources, time, money, energy extracted from them.

Randy Bell [01:47:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:52] I don't know.

Randy Bell [01:47:53] No. Well, I think those are all great points, and I think we'd agree that when your identity is taken, that's a problem. And they're obviously very different game plans in terms of one keeps you alive and one there's suicide and how much overlap that is, that's for people to decide of themselves. One thing I want will say good about Heaven's Gate, believe it or not, is that they kept the children out of it. Children were never allowed to go in that house. They were not allowed to have anything to do with that group. And in an odd way, I think that's admirable.

Randy Bell [01:48:33] And they were explicitly excluded. That's admirable. At some level, at least they didn't infect any of this nonsense onto children. One thing I think we always need to remind ourselves of Sam Young and protect children. And one thing that I've gotten in big trouble with my own family about is reminding them that the Mormon Church has $250 million in liability with the Boy Scouts. I mean, you want to talk about systemic child abuse. $250 million. I work in the court systems. Any verdict over 10 million is going to raise eyebrows. 250 million as a settlement, you know,

John Dehlin [01:49:15] and that was a rejected celibate. A rejected settlement that the Church offered. Yeah.

Randy Bell [01:49:20] And the church said, that's not enough for the damage that's being done.

John Dehlin [01:49:23] The court said that's not enough.

Randy Bell [01:49:24] Right?

Randy Bell [01:49:24] Yeah, the court said. The judge said, yeah. So, you know, kudos to Heaven's Gate for at least keeping the kids out of it.

John Dehlin [01:49:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I guess I'll conclude by saying we don't need this trauma Olympics or this cult Olympics. They're both horrible. Any organization that kills its members, horrible. Any organization that uses coercion, undue influence, a lack of transparency to extract resources out of its members for their entire lives. Also bad. Both can be bad. It's not like B isn't bad because A is worse. It can be. Both are bad. And we don't need to sort of dismiss one or downplay one because it doesn't compare in certain ways to another.

Randy Bell [01:50:10] Totally agree. It's not a competition. In academia, we call it compare and contrast, and you compare it and you contrast it. There are similarities, there are dissimilarities, but there's some interesting parallels, at least in my mind. And I just think we ought to sit up straight and pay attention to these issues and decide what's really going on here when we're not being told the truth when we join or when we stay in the church. I went on a mission I didn't know about. All the stuff in the gospel topic essays were considered anti Mormon lies. I was explicitly told they were lies, so I dismissed them. And now the church has admitted him. I mean, there's something going on here.

John Dehlin [01:50:55] Yeah. All right. Well, Dr. Randy Bell, it's so great to have you. Thanks so much for giving us your time and your good work.

Closing Thoughts and Listener Support

Randy Bell [01:51:02] Well, thank you, John. And I sure admire you and your work and just keep it going.

John Dehlin [01:51:07] Thanks, man.

Randy Bell [01:51:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:08] And thanks to everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories. I could take these earphones off now. Yeah. We couldn't do this without your support. So if you are a donor to Mormon Stories in the Open Stories foundation, thank you.

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John Dehlin [01:53:04] All right. Be good to each other be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Don't join a cult.

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