What happens when a Mormon woman questions her faith—but doesn’t walk away entirely? In this week’s interview, Olivia Calvert shares her journey of embracing doubts and shifts in belief. Choosing to live Mormonism in her own way, Olivia’s path leads her to what she calls “casual discipleship.” While we have explored stories like this before from men in the church, it is rare for an LDS woman to open up about her faith in this way.
Topics include:
-Purity culture
-Faith crises
-Church history
-Choosing to stay Mormon—on your own terms.
If you’ve ever felt like you don’t quite fit the Mormon mold, this story might be exactly what you need to hear. Join us as we talk about the many ways people are navigating Mormonism today.
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-host: Margi Dehlin · Guest: Olivia Calvert
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Welcome and Introduction to the Episode
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's July 1, 2025. Today we're going to be answering the question, what's it like to embrace casual discipleship within Mormonism? Or what's it like to be a proud buffet Mormon or cafeteria Mormon? Or to just sort of be a Mormon on your own terms and to be proud of it, to lean into it. And oftentimes when we do episodes like this, another term we use, pimo. Physically in, mentally out. And you know, some of these terms may or may not totally apply to today, but usually when we do these types of episodes, we're interviewing men. Today is the first time in a long time where we're interviewing a woman who basically is willing to sort of say, I don't believe some are all of orthodox Mormon teachings, or I don't choose to obey or practice all of orthodox Mormon behavior, but I still choose to be a Mormon in my own way and I'm not ashamed to talk openly about it. So. Joining us today in studio to discuss her story is Olivia Calvert. Hey, Olivia.
Margi Dehlin [00:01:15] Hi.
Olivia Calvert [00:01:15] I was excited about how you were going to put that.
John Dehlin [00:01:18] How did I do?
Olivia Calvert [00:01:19] I liked it.
John Dehlin [00:01:19] Anything you correct or add or change or remove?
Olivia Calvert [00:01:23] No, I was like giddy hearing it.
John Dehlin [00:01:25] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [00:01:26] All right.
John Dehlin [00:01:26] And we talked about, you know, the, the remote chance that there's some risk in owning your casualness or owning even your disobedience or diversion from the norm.
Olivia Calvert [00:01:38] Right.
John Dehlin [00:01:38] And you're, you're okay with that?
Olivia Calvert [00:01:41] I'm okay. I mean, I believe everyone's entitled to changing their minds and having their faith be more fluid. And it's a long journey, so I'm not worried you're here for it. Yep.
John Dehlin [00:01:55] And joining us today, as always, for these long form interviews is my co host, Margi. Hey, Margi.
Margi Dehlin [00:02:00] Hello.
John Dehlin [00:02:01] You here for. You here for this?
Margi Dehlin [00:02:03] I'm excited. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:02:04] All right. Okay, so really quickly, please subscribe and like to this channel, please. Thumbs up this episode. We love your comments. We read everyone please be kind in your comments. But we look forward to that. And of course, Mormon Stories exists thanks to our donors. So if you're a monthly donor to the Open Stories foundation, that's by far and away how we're able to do this. Our ad revenue is minimal compared to the donations. So thanks. If you're a donor and if you're not a donor, the way you can support this type of content is go to MormonStories.org and click on the donate button to Become a monthly donor. All right. Well, Olivia, where does your Mormon story begin?
Growing Up Mormon in Parker, Colorado
Olivia Calvert [00:02:53] It begins in a smallish town called Parker, Colorado. I was born and raised there. It's a pretty. Was at the time a pretty Christian conservative area. So I grew up around all denominations of Christian. We had a megachurch right down the street. I had Catholic friends, Protestant friends, Lutheran friends, non denominational friends, and Mormon friends. So we were all represented. I think I had one proud atheist friend.
John Dehlin [00:03:26] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [00:03:26] And so that's kind of the setting I grew up.
John Dehlin [00:03:31] Were your parents, like, multi generational Mormons or converts or what?
Olivia Calvert [00:03:35] Yeah, actually, in the past few weeks, I've been doing a little family history to see how far back we go. On my mom's side, we are pioneer stock. I have a descendant who came with Brigham Young over the plains. Did not know that in the very first company. But then on my dad's side, I'm not actually sure how far back we go, but yeah, both sets of grandparents grew up in the church.
John Dehlin [00:04:01] So would you say, like, did your dad serve a mission? Did your parents get married in the temple, that sort of thing?
Olivia Calvert [00:04:06] Yes, my dad served a mission in Portugal. My mother did not serve a mission. She did a couple years at byu, and then after he got home, they were high school sweethearts. After he got home from his mission, they got married in Provo.
John Dehlin [00:04:20] So byu. A BYU couple.
Olivia Calvert [00:04:21] Byu?
Margi Dehlin [00:04:22] Yep.
Olivia Calvert [00:04:22] They were married in the Denver Temple.
John Dehlin [00:04:23] Okay. And when they got married in the temple, were they sort of orthodox, you know, believing Mormons or do you get a sense that they were progressive Mormons or, you know, unorthodox Mormons at the time they were married? Do you even have an idea of that?
Olivia Calvert [00:04:45] I was actually with my mom two days ago, and I was asking her these kinds of questions, and I would say they were. They were orthodox Mormons when they got married.
John Dehlin [00:04:54] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [00:04:55] Yeah, definitely.
John Dehlin [00:04:56] How many siblings do you have? Where are you in the birth order, all that?
Olivia Calvert [00:04:59] I'm the third of four, so I have two older brothers and then a younger sister.
John Dehlin [00:05:04] Okay, and then to what extent was your Mormon upbringing like the same as most of the people we interview in terms of doing all the things, the standards versus unconventional in any way.
Olivia Calvert [00:05:17] It's funny because I asked my mom, would you consider us orthodox Mormons growing up? And she said, oh, no, no, we were not. But then when we broke it down, we really were. We did. We went to church every Sunday. We, with some rare exceptions, like we would not go to church if we were on vacation. Sunday was just another day on vacation. But I think that's pretty normal. We went to young women's. We went to all the activities. I did girls camp every year. Trek every year. So doing all the things. Yes. My parents always had callings. My dad never had a big calling, so he was never pulled from the home, which was really nice.
John Dehlin [00:05:54] But.
Olivia Calvert [00:05:55] But really the only thing that wasn't orthodox about us was we didn't really do family home evening. It was family night. So we weren't allowed to spend time with friends, but we were going out to eat, watching 24 or reality television, going to the movies. Like, we weren't really doing lessons like the classic family home evening. And we were kind of. I feel like in our ward, there was two camps. We had some families that were completely immersed in the gospel, like their life revolved around the church. And then there was a camp of us and some other families that were more like, yes, we go to church every Sunday. We are Mormon, but we're. It's not within every nook and cranny of our life. Kind of like a church and state thing.
Family Culture of Being "Cool Mormons"
John Dehlin [00:06:48] Yeah. You mentioned in your outline having a family culture of thinking yourselves as cool Mormons. Describe what it. What in your family's mind, what's a cool Mormon versus. I don't want to say uncool Mormon.
Margi Dehlin [00:07:03] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:07:03] But let's just say cool Mormon versus orthodox Mormon. What would be the difference in your family's culture and mindset?
Olivia Calvert [00:07:10] Yeah. And I don't. I don't know if my siblings felt the same way, but for me, so much of Mormonism was embarrassing. So if I saw a family at the airport and they're all in their BYU gear, you spot them from a mile away, and I'm like, oh, that's. That's weird. Mormon or wearing your Sunday clothes all day, fasting 24 hours.
Margi Dehlin [00:07:40] We.
Olivia Calvert [00:07:41] One thing that made us cool was we were super into sports. So it was church first and then sports for the rest of the day on Sunday.
John Dehlin [00:07:49] So you do sports on Sunday?
Olivia Calvert [00:07:50] Yes. We didn't play sports on Sundays, but we did watch sports on Sundays. Yeah. And we would sometimes go to Broncos games or Nuggets games, even if they were on Sundays, baseball games.
John Dehlin [00:08:03] So your family would go to Broncos games and Nuggets games?
Olivia Calvert [00:08:07] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:08:08] That's super cool.
Olivia Calvert [00:08:09] Maybe like once a year. It wasn't all the time, but. But yeah. Oh, yeah. My dad's a huge sports guy. It's his favorite. It's his. It's his number one passion. So super into sports. We all drank soda like no, we didn't do coffee, we didn't do tea, we didn't do alcohol. But we were big soda drinkers.
John Dehlin [00:08:29] Meaning caffeinated beverages like Coke or Dr. Pepper or whatever.
Olivia Calvert [00:08:33] Yeah, oh yeah, we thought, I, we thought my grandparents were weird because they would always get the non caffeinated soda.
John Dehlin [00:08:41] What about movies?
Olivia Calvert [00:08:43] So my parents would occasionally watch rated R movies and I'd be like, well that's not fair. But we watched. There was a line we would watch PG13 movies as families, but if there was any nudity or like severe like violence. Yeah, we probably wouldn't watch those. But my parents would sometimes go out and see rated or movies together and then tell us we couldn't do as I say, not as I do kind of thing.
Margi Dehlin [00:09:12] I have a question within. So your lived experience at home kind of as a, as a child, how much would you say you were being like having religious conditioning? Monday through Saturday already you've kind of said Sunday there was a part where maybe you went to church, but also the rest of that day you might be watching sports or doing other things. Right. So how much was it felt in your family system like actually religious conditioning, meaning you're talking with your mom and a scripture comes up or you know, you're, you're having a choice that's hard for you and prayer and you know, whatever your mom do, you know what I mean? Like how much, how tangible was it or was it really like you mentioned separation church and state? Like not all, not a whole lot.
Olivia Calvert [00:10:10] That's a really good question. I'm glad you framed it that way. It was not in very many conversations. Scriptures never came up. I kind of giggled when you said that because I don't remember ever being told a scripture from either of my parents. But my mom would. My mom was kind of the spiritual leader in our family. She was the driving force for doing all the things. If we ever did do family home evening, it was because she really wanted to. If we ever did family scripture study, it was because she really wanted to. And she would. If we were trying to make a decision, she would say, have you prayed about it? But other than that, like after church we would have our Sunday dinner. My dad would ask what you learned in church today and then that was about it. The church was not really brought up or the gospel was not really brought up in conversation regularly. It wasn't fully immersed in our family.
John Dehlin [00:11:05] Yeah, you mentioned your dad not doing like PPIs or priesthood blessings. How about father's blessings? You know, at the beginning of each School year?
Olivia Calvert [00:11:15] No. I had one of my very best friends, was my neighbor and in my ward, and she would get a priesthood blessing every year before school, and I was jealous of that, and I would want that, but we. I've never received a Father's blessing. PPI's. Priesthood. Personal interview. Personal priesthood interview. I don't even know what those look like. I've never had one.
John Dehlin [00:11:36] So, like, your dad checking in on your worthiness, right?
Olivia Calvert [00:11:41] Yeah, no, he kind of left that to my mom. Even when I had maybe some moral issues later on in my life, he would express to my mom his concern, not really to me, and he would kind of have her handle it.
John Dehlin [00:11:57] And you mentioned your mom being more the spiritual leader. You. You described your family as more of a matriarchy than a patriarchy. Was that conscious? Like, did y' all identify as feminists? Did your mom identify as a feminist?
Olivia Calvert [00:12:10] No, I think she was just the one who was really. She was just naturally the disciplinarian. My dad worked all day. He'd come home for dinner. It was really important to him to be the fun parent, and we had a lot of fun with him. I just don't think the discipline and the spiritual leadership was really his cup of tea. He just kind of left that to my mom to do.
Margi Dehlin [00:12:43] So what's interesting about that is it's kind of playing as opposed to a default role that they kind of fell to within Mormonism. The, you know, the husband. I mean, clearly he had the. The job and the work outside the home. But as far as, like, disciplinarian spiritual leader, you know, kind of the final say, it sounds like they actually, you know, went more with their personalities. Is that the way you would frame that?
Olivia Calvert [00:13:17] Yeah, I think so.
John Dehlin [00:13:19] And you mentioned that shaped how you viewed the priesthood. Does that mean you didn't value the priesthood as much or you just saw it as different in. In your life?
Olivia Calvert [00:13:29] Yeah, I. I didn't feel like we had a very strong priesthood presence in our home, so I didn't really come to value the priesthood very much because my dad just wasn't really practicing his priesthood very much. So I didn't see it.
John Dehlin [00:13:45] And you remember feeling like, oh, we're missing out or a loss, or did you feel relieved? Wow, I'm glad I don't have to deal with a dad that's nagging me all the time. Like, do you remember how you processed that as you were becoming more aware of maybe orthodox Mormon families and, you know, your own development?
Olivia Calvert [00:14:06] Yeah, I think the latter. I. I did not Want my dad to be overly involved spiritually in my life. And I saw a lot of dads that were like that, and I was like, oh, they're really strict, or they really don't, like, give their kids any wiggle room. I kind of liked that we were a little more independent. Our parents were not helicopter parents. They were pretty relaxed with how we lived our own lives and made our own choices.
John Dehlin [00:14:36] So you talked about in your outline. You know, a lot of Mormons are prideful about being born under the covenant and about being from the Tribe of Ephraim and their patriarchal blessing. Talk about your perspective.
Olivia Calvert [00:14:50] Yeah, not. I. I always viewed being a member of the church as more of a burden than anything. You know how a lot of royals resent being royals. And we are kind of taught well. We're royal because we are members of the church. We're of that royal spiritual line. And I just viewed it kind of as a heavy burden to carry. Even though I believed it was true, it wasn't fun for me. I wasn't excited about it. I wasn't proud to be a Mormon. I kind of cringed learning about pioneer history. I didn't revere my pioneer ancestors like a lot of people do. I was almost embarrassed that they even did that. I was kind of like, why would you do that? Why would you walk thousands of miles dying to go live in Utah? I don't understand that at all.
John Dehlin [00:15:48] Says someone not living in Utah.
Olivia Calvert [00:15:49] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [00:15:50] Yeah. Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:15:50] Now that I'm here, I'm like, well, it is a beautiful place. This is the place. I was thinking you need a sign in your studio that says, this is the place. But with the Tribe of Ephraim, you mentioned that. Because in my patriarchal blessing, it said I was from the Tribe of Ephraim, which most members of the church are. And I remember just silently praying, any tribe but Ephraim. Any tribe but Ephraim. Because I knew that Ephraim was the missionary work tribe. That is the tribe that is set aside to bring the world the gospel.
John Dehlin [00:16:24] And you didn't want to be a missionary for the church?
Olivia Calvert [00:16:26] No, no. I hated talking about the church. I got teased a lot from friends about being Mormon, and I felt like I had to constantly defend my faith, but I never felt this urge to share it, like when. When church leaders call this church the Church of Joy. I don't really feel that way. Never really have and didn't really want to force it on other people, I guess.
Margi Dehlin [00:17:00] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:17:01] Kind of how I felt about missionary work.
Margi Dehlin [00:17:03] Right.
John Dehlin [00:17:04] So were you Embarrassed, Like. Like, I just remember growing up, I was proud to be a Mormon, and I wanted to tell the world. Margi's laughing like, it was my favorite part of my identity. Were you embarrassed to be Mormon? Did you overall just not like being a Mormon?
Olivia Calvert [00:17:19] It was. Yeah. I was mostly embarrassed by it, but I had a testimony. So in conversations when people would, like, sincerely ask me questions about the church, I would kind of get excited to talk about it, but usually I would kind of want to crawl into myself and not talk about it and try to change the subject.
Margi Dehlin [00:17:43] Yeah.
Youth Experiences and Lehi's Dream
John Dehlin [00:17:43] Did y' all do Trek in your, you know, youth days?
Olivia Calvert [00:17:47] Oh, did we? We did the real trek. The treks they do today are nothing like what we did. We did. We went up to Wyoming. We did all the spots. We did a 15 mile day hike carrying the wagons. We did the woman's. What do they call that? Like, the women's walk or something, where you have to walk up this really steep hill and they make the boys stand on the edge and watch you, and all the boys are crying because they can't help and. Yeah, we did all of that. We wore the pioneer clothes in the heat. Yep. We slept on the ground.
Margi Dehlin [00:18:20] Wow.
John Dehlin [00:18:21] So given how you felt about Mormonism and about pioneers, how did you like Trek or not?
Olivia Calvert [00:18:27] All I really remember from Trek was that it was a lot of walking and I had a crush on a boy at the time, so I was kind of consumed on trying to talk to that boy most of the time. It. I don't feel like it really changed my perspective on pioneers at all, except that that really sucked. I don't know why they did that. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:18:51] And you. You mentioned identifying with an atypical part of Lehigh's dream. Do you want to talk about that?
Olivia Calvert [00:19:00] Yeah. Yeah. So for those of you who don't know, Lehi is a prophet in the Book of Mormon. And very early on in the Book of Mormon, he has this vision where he sees three main groups of people. They're all trying to get to this tree. And is it the Tree of Life?
John Dehlin [00:19:19] Okay, that's how I remember it.
Olivia Calvert [00:19:21] Yeah. So they're all trying to get to the Tree of Life, and there is a narrow path, a straight and narrow path that makes it to the tree and an iron rod that follows the path. And all you have to do is hold on to the rod and you'll make it to the tree. So that's kind of the setup around it. There is this mist of darkness, and so you don't want to let go of the rod, because you might get lost. So the first group, I don't know in which order he tells about the groups, but one of the groups, they hold on to the rod, they make it to the tree, they taste that wonderful fruit from the tree, and they're happy. And then the second group, they are the same as the first group, they make it to the tree, they taste the fruit, but then they are ashamed and they wander off and are lost. And then the third group are people who let go of the rod at some point and are lost, and they never make it to the tree. I always resonated with that second group of the people who made it to the tree, ate the fruit, and were ashamed, because if you view the fruit as like the gospel, eternal life, you view the rod as the word of God. You made it through your life, you tasted the fruit, and now you're happy in heaven. I kind of viewed it as, oh, I've tasted this fruit, and I'm kind of ashamed. And so I resonated with that group where I was a little embarrassed and shamed. Didn't really want to be here, but I am here, and I made it. I made it to the tree. I'm in the church, I've made the covenants, whatever, and a little ashamed to have done so. Yeah, that just always resonated with me more.
John Dehlin [00:21:03] But it sounds conflicted because you also write that you loved being identified as a daughter of God and having divine destiny and. And divine worth and all that, right?
Olivia Calvert [00:21:14] Oh, yeah. I'm a walking contradiction, John. I. While I didn't like that, I was Mormon, and I would daydream about being one of those people who lived their whole lives as just a normal person. And then when they were 85, the missionaries came knocking on their door and they were bapt. That's kind of my dream scenario. I still loved the teaching that I was a divine daughter of God, that I was special, that God chose me. Even if it. Even if I didn't want to be chosen, it still felt good to be chosen and to be special, to know that God trusted me to be one of his elect. Like, it still felt good, and it did give me confidence, and it gave me a sense of worth and value, and it helped me kind of always know who I was, even if I didn't like it.
John Dehlin [00:22:06] Sometimes was you're not liking it partly because you were worried you wouldn't live up to the standards or you wouldn't be worthy, or was it because it just wasn't enjoyable? Like, I'm trying to get a sense for, you know, why you weren't fully on board, you know, if you even know.
Olivia Calvert [00:22:26] I think it was because I valued the opinions of others, and I think I valued the opinions of people outside of the church more than inside. So the majority of my friends were not members of the church. I had my one best friend. Besides that, I kind of purposefully had all my friends not be members of the church. And I think I cared more about what they thought about me. And because they thought, oh, she's Mormon, she's weird, I think that's kind of how I viewed myself as well. Does that make sense?
Margi Dehlin [00:23:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:23:02] There's a part of my Mormon brain that's like, that's terrible. Like we're supposed to be in the world, but not of the world. And what Mormons think, what Mormon leaders think, that's all that matters. Because that's what Jesus and God think and what the world thinks, what non Mormons think, that's evil. That's sin, that's, you know, non Mormons. And we, we literally shouldn't care because those people, we won't say that they're inferior explicitly, but culturally, we all, as Mormons know that there's Mormons up here and then the rest of the world down here in terms of, like, values and morals and spirituality. It's, it's the whole. We have the gift of the Holy Ghost as baptized, confirmed Mormons. The rest of the world either is living in sin or they only have the light of Christ, which means their understanding and insight and spirituality is always going to be inferior because they literally can't have the full gift of the Holy Ghost. So, like, that feels in some ways very counter to orthodox Mormonism to care more about what non Mormons think than what Mormons think.
Olivia Calvert [00:24:15] Totally.
John Dehlin [00:24:15] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:24:16] No, I get that. And I think a lot of people in my ward or just in the church in general do feel that way. That is the attitude they have. And they may be pity a little bit. The people who aren't in the church. Oh, how much happier would they be if they had the gospel? Whereas I'm sitting there being like, they look pretty dang happy to me. They seem like they're living a great life.
John Dehlin [00:24:36] Yeah. And for me and many others, one real strike to a testimony is like, after you leave the Mormon bubble and have to go out into the workplace and you meet super smart and moral Jews and Catholics and evangelicals and atheists, you're like, whoa, non Mormons could be awesome. I'm not so sure. I can keep viewing them as inferior. But as a, as a teen and as a kid, once you're in the bubble, it's harder to see it that way. But it sounds like you were never fully in the bubble, culturally.
Olivia Calvert [00:25:09] Yeah, yeah, I don't think I was. Growing up outside of Utah kind of helps. And then just my natural gravitation towards non member friends helped as well. My sister's the same way, except she stopped going to church when she was like 13. Yeah, she felt the same way I do at the time.
John Dehlin [00:25:27] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:25:28] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:25:29] Okay. Well, you know, the real disciplining of orthodox Mormonism often begins in those, you know, youth years, young women, young men's years, young high school years. And you know, the way that the church really starts to put the screws on is through kind of word of wisdom. Drinking, smoking, drugs, and then law of chastity. And your outline talks a lot about that. So how do you want to talk about that?
Young Women's Years and Modesty Lessons
Olivia Calvert [00:25:58] Yeah. So I felt like I was a really good kid. I got good grades, I went to church every week, I went to seminary every day. But there were a few things that my church leaders really wanted from me that I just didn't care about. One of those was modesty. Never wanted to dress modestly, just didn't. I wanted to dress like all the girls at my school and I felt like it was. Wasn't authentic to who I was to throw on a shade shirt so that I could wear a cute tank top. I was just going to wear the cute tank top. And I didn't care what anyone said about it because I didn't feel like that was the law. It was in the Strength of Youth pamphlet. It was in the pamphlet, but it wasn't in the scriptures. And so with modesty, I just always wore whatever the heck I wanted.
John Dehlin [00:26:57] And so bikinis or whatever.
Olivia Calvert [00:27:00] Yeah, bikinis. So my mom, back to my mom, kind of letting us live our own life and do whatever we wanted to do. She didn't push me too hard on being modest, but there were a couple times she laid down the lawn. Bikinis was one of them. She would not buy me a bikini. So if I wanted to wear a bikini, I had to go to my friend's house and borrow one of hers, which is what I often did.
John Dehlin [00:27:23] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [00:27:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:27:26] So
Olivia Calvert [00:27:29] I would go to church in short skirts, tank tops. I would wear lower cut stuff. I just wore whatever I felt confident in.
John Dehlin [00:27:38] And did you get pushback from leaders or peers?
Olivia Calvert [00:27:43] Peers, no. I did feel like maybe I was being judged in young women's but that was most likely just me projecting. I did get one major pushback from my bishop. I mean, this is a core memory. I was in seminary, early morning seminary, by the way, I was up at 5:30 to get to seminary every day at 6:30. Anyways, it's a warm day. I remember exactly what I was wearing. I was wearing a light pink loose tank top, had sparkles on it and some white short shorts. Now they weren't my shortest short shorts. I wore my shorter shorts that went to about mid thigh. And my bishop just happened to be in seminary that day. Now I don't know if that's normal for bishops to sit in. In seminary.
John Dehlin [00:28:31] It's not.
Olivia Calvert [00:28:32] Okay. I didn't think so. So I felt like this was a setup. I knew my seminary teacher didn't like me. It was sophomore year, we were learning about the Old Testament and we were doing a lesson on Noah's Ark. So we did an outdoor object lesson that day and we were all standing far away from each other so that the teacher could demonstrate how large Noah's Ark was. And as we're standing there, the bishop comes up to me and he leans in close and he says, I'm very disappointed in you. And that's creepy. Yeah. My immediate reaction was fear because even though I was confident in how I dressed and I didn't care what people thought, I was still scared of authority and I was scared of getting in trouble. And so I don't remember how I responded. I don't remember if he said anything else after that. I just like had this full on adrenaline rush. I could hear rushing in my ears, heart pounding. I was terrified. And so my immediate feeling was fear. And then as I sat on it, I just got angry. Who do you think you are telling me you're disappointed in me? You're not my dad.
John Dehlin [00:29:44] You didn't say that.
Olivia Calvert [00:29:45] No, I. I don't remember what I said. Yeah, I probably just said sorry.
John Dehlin [00:29:49] But you probably thought that.
Olivia Calvert [00:29:50] Yeah. Especially later on.
John Dehlin [00:29:52] Yeah. Okay. Reflecting.
Olivia Calvert [00:29:54] Yeah. Reflecting back, like, why would he do that? It made me double down. It didn't change my behavior. It didn't make me want to repent. It made me just continue doing what I was doing and kind of say screw you to the man. So I just kept dressing the way I dress. And then it never came up again with him. He never called me into his office. That was the only interaction we had. But my mom did get some pushback from leaders. They would talk to her and tell her that I was an issue And I'm really grateful for how my mom responded. She told me a few years ago, she was like, you know, I kind of liked that you were a little rebellious in that. And she told the leaders that she was just happy I was there. She's like, olivia's here at church. She's here all three hours. I don't care what she wears. If she's confident in what she wears, that's all that matters.
John Dehlin [00:30:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's. That's pretty powerful, because I. I do think. And Mark, I'm sure you'll agree that, like, a lot of problems with mental health, with confidence, with sexuality, even marital sexuality with women, Mormon women after they're married roots back into messages around modesty as girl Mormon girls and as definitely as Mormon teenage girls.
Olivia Calvert [00:31:26] So, yeah, yeah. I mean, we had countless lessons on modesty. And I don't know how much me being a problem child with modesty attributed to that, but we would have so many lessons. And every reason that they gave for being modest just didn't resonate with me. Yeah, Like a big one they would give is, if Christ were to come into this room, would you feel comfortable around him? My answer was, yeah, because I don't think Christ, of all people, is going to care what someone's wearing. He looks at our hearts, not our outside. Right. The other reason they would give is, well, you want to be prepared for garments. You want to be prepared for the temple. And I didn't like that because I had, like, 10 years until I was going to go to the temple. I'm not gonna suffer now the rest of my life to suffer in garments. Another reason, and this was. This is the reason I have the most complicated feelings about. Haven't quite processed it all the way. But a big reason they would give is the way you dress represents how you feel about yourself. And so in like, crass terms, if you dress like a slut, then you must think you're a slut, and you are slut. And I don't agree with that at all. But I do believe that the way you dress is an expression of maybe an artistic expression. There's some kind of personal expression on how you dress, but I don't believe it's the way they taught us. And also, how much of it is cultural? Like, we have so many cultural norms around how we dress. We dress a certain way for certain situations. So how much of that affects it as well? That one's a little more complicated for me.
John Dehlin [00:33:15] Did you.
Margi Dehlin [00:33:15] Did you absorb messages at all or receive Messages about your body in relationship to like, what men feel or their experience. Like, did you have any of those messages of like, your body's not your own really?
John Dehlin [00:33:33] Or if you dress immodestly, it'll make boys.
Margi Dehlin [00:33:36] Yeah, you're responsible for their thoughts about.
John Dehlin [00:33:39] They'll have sexual thoughts because you dressed immodestly, that kind of thing.
Olivia Calvert [00:33:43] Oh, yeah, I received those messages a lot. Like, well, you can't show your shoulders because boys will have inappropriate thoughts and we need to protect their thoughts. And my reactions, like, are you kidding me? It's their thoughts. Like, they can learn how to control their thoughts. It's not my business what they think about me, but I did receive that messaging a lot.
Margi Dehlin [00:34:04] You did, okay.
Olivia Calvert [00:34:05] And I'm like, are the boys receiving the same messaging? Like, we need to help control girls thoughts? Doubt it. So yeah, I received that a lot and I didn't like that one at all. I'm like, boohoo. They can, they can cleanse their own thoughts. They can worry about that. That's not my problem.
Margi Dehlin [00:34:21] Were you alone in that or were there. Did you have peers within your church experience or in young women's that you know, they were challenging or similar? Did you have allies?
Olivia Calvert [00:34:36] Not really. I was kind of the only one that dressed that way. Most, most of my friends in my ward, even my very best friend, she supported me. She didn't judge me at all. But I was really the only one.
Margi Dehlin [00:34:55] Wow. Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:34:56] Yeah.
Navigating the Law of Chastity on Her Own Terms
John Dehlin [00:34:57] So you mentioned your outline, escaping sexual shame by making up your own rules regarding to law of chastity. That sounds pretty bold. So we're here for what do you want to share about that?
Margi Dehlin [00:35:09] Tell us all about it.
John Dehlin [00:35:10] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:35:11] So, okay. I didn't believe that modesty was a law. It wasn't a commandment. And when it comes to the law of chastity, my understanding was sex, that's the law. Do not have sex outside of marriage. Everything leading up to sex. If we're going to say bases one through three, well, we just don't want you to do that because it makes it a lot harder to not then have sex. You might as well go all the way if you're gonna make it to base three. You might as well just get the home run. But for me, I just viewed it as kind of a guideline. So we had this lesson in young women's. There was a conference talk, I don't remember who gave it. It was called choose ye this day. And the point was, if you choose today to keep the commandments, then when you are Inevitably tempted, it'll be a lot easier to say no. And so I agree with that concept. They kind of wanted us to wholesale commit today to not break any commandments. But I knew myself, I knew I wasn't gonna make a promise to God that I wasn't going to keep. I knew I was boy crazy. My first boyfriend was in fifth grade, and I had a boyfriend almost all throughout my childhood after that. So I knew that it just wasn't likely that I was going to be able to keep the law of chastity the way it's written in for the Strength of Youth pamphlet. So what I did in that lesson was I committed to God. One promise. I promise that I will not have sex before marriage. And there were a lot of reasons for that. One, because it was in the scriptures. Two, I understood the logistical reasons, too. I don't want to get pregnant. I don't want to get sti. I don't want to develop an attachment to a young man who might not feel the same about me. I do want it to be special with my husband. So I had a lot of reasons for keeping that commandment, but I left the door open to kind of explore sexually up into that line. And I'm proud of myself. I kept that commandment or that promise I made to God. I kept it. And that promise probably means more to me than any of the other promises I made in the church, because I made it. It was my choice.
Margi Dehlin [00:37:42] Right.
Olivia Calvert [00:37:43] And I stuck to it.
John Dehlin [00:37:45] Mm. And I guess, did you feel like that worked for you as a teenage young woman, just in terms of your relationships and your development? Did you feel like that harmed you, or did you feel like that was a probably a healthy thing?
Olivia Calvert [00:38:00] I think it was a very healthy thing. Unfortunately, I know a lot of women who had zero sexual experience before marriage. And you've talked about this a lot on the podcast, where we are taught sex is bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. And then overnight, literally overnight, oh, now it's good. And you should enjoy it, and you should give it to your husband whenever he wants. That's a really, really hard switch to flip. And I feel for a lot of the women in my life who had to deal with that and just so many horror stories of their wedding nights. And I must have heard some of those stories before I graduated high school, because I felt that way. I felt like it was important to at least know a little bit about what I'm doing before I get married.
Margi Dehlin [00:38:52] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:38:52] And I never even viewed it as a red flag if a man had had sex before marriage. That wasn't like a deal breaker for me. I'm like, well, at least he knows what he's doing.
John Dehlin [00:39:02] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:39:04] I have a quick question. With your experience during your these years that you're describ where you are differentiating, let's just say from the orthodox Mormon way, and you're getting this feedback from authority through your bishop or through, I don't know, what was their response to you? For example, your bishop is doing the thing where he's trying to, you know, we'll put in quotation marks, urge you to dress differently, and it sounds like you continued your path and dressing the way you felt comfortable. Is that true? First of all, did you keep dressing the way you felt comfortable?
Olivia Calvert [00:39:46] Okay. Oh, yeah, I doubled down. It might have even gotten worse after that.
Margi Dehlin [00:39:49] Okay, so what was the response? I'm curious about some of these controls that oftentimes come in in a Mormon experience and can be, you know, borderline abusive. Right. When we don't conform or when we don't. Did you ever have consequences? Did the bishop ever bring it up again?
John Dehlin [00:40:11] Do you mean like worthiness interviews or
Margi Dehlin [00:40:12] double down or call you in and say, I've mentioned this to you before and it seems like you're not now.
John Dehlin [00:40:19] And are you talking modesty or like love chastity?
Margi Dehlin [00:40:21] Okay, yeah. Any of the ways that you were differentiating at the time that could be witnessed by people in authority? Because I think. And then I have a follow up question after that, but I'm just kind of curious what their reaction was.
John Dehlin [00:40:34] Yeah, like worthiness interviews, confessions with the bishop, that sort of thing.
Olivia Calvert [00:40:38] I was never, besides that one comment that the bishop made to me in seminary, besides that I wasn't confronted that I remember. I don't believe I was ever confronted about my modesty or law of chastity. I mean, they wouldn't have known if I was living the law of chastity. I was never really confronted about that. Now, there was one time that I went to the bishop, I had a serious boyfriend in high school and we had gone too far. And I did feel guilty enough about it that I felt like I should tell the bishop. And so I don't remember if I called the meeting or if it was just my annual temple recommend interview time, but in that meeting I did tell him, oh, my boyfriend and I have gone too far. We messed up.
John Dehlin [00:41:31] And not in terms of your covenant with God, but just in terms of the church's standards.
Olivia Calvert [00:41:36] Right? Yeah, yeah, that was kind of always a battle is like I have my own feelings, but I also feel a little bit of guilt because I'm being told all the time, this is bad, this is bad, this is bad.
John Dehlin [00:41:45] They call it petting.
Olivia Calvert [00:41:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Petting. Such a funny word. Yes. So I remember I confessed once and I didn't even give him a full confession. I told him like, it happened one time. He asked me the classic questions. He didn't ever say, like, above the belt, below the belt, clothes on, clothes off. Was he a member? Was he a priesthood holder? I was never asked, did you enjoy it? I hear a lot of women are asked, did you enjoy it? Fortunately, I was not asked that. The question that I was not honest about was the frequency, like, how many times has this happened? Because I knew that if you say it happens all the time, you're going to get a really serious sentence.
John Dehlin [00:42:36] It was one slip up, you know.
Olivia Calvert [00:42:38] Right. Whereas if you say, oh, once or twice, not a big of a deal. So then I left that meeting and I was like, why did I even confess to him if I wasn't going to give him a full confession?
John Dehlin [00:42:46] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:42:47] And then I just kind of never really did confessed to a bishop after that.
John Dehlin [00:42:51] Did he punish you though? Did he? Was there a consequence?
Olivia Calvert [00:42:54] It was minor. If I remember, it was only like two weeks without the sacrament. It wasn't. It wasn't too bad because I didn't give him the full truth. I'm sure it could have been six months and we'll revoke your temple recommend.
John Dehlin [00:43:09] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:43:09] But I do remember my temple recommend was not revoked and it was only a couple weeks.
Margi Dehlin [00:43:15] Okay. So I think that's a, it's kind of a, for me, an important point to make that overall, your experience with men in authority in your teen years, as you're differentiating and kind of learning to kind of go internal, what do I feel? What do I want to do? What do I think is right? You know, you didn't have a heavy control on the side of it. Sounds like the church. How about your family? How was your, how did your family system view you thinking for yourself? To the extent that they knew, I don't expect necessarily, they knew the ins and outs of how you were approaching your sexual self, for example. But like, as far as they knew how it feels like what you've expressed so far is your mom was supportive, but how, how did you experience that differentiation within the Church, in your family system? Was it viewed a problem? Was it like way to think for yourself? Was it in between?
Olivia Calvert [00:44:16] I think my parents didn't know and didn't want to know. So when I had that serious boyfriend and I was going to his house a lot of times a week, my mom would be like, well, why don't you invite him here? Why doesn't he come over here? I'm a little worried that you're going to his house so much. I'm a little concerned about what could be happening. She expressed that a couple of times, but she never point blank asked me like, are you living the law of chastity? Are you being good? I don't think she really wanted to know. My dad certainly didn't want to know. And so they just kind of let me do my own thing. I don't know what would have happened if I had confided in my mom. I don't know if she would have made me break up. We never got to that point.
Margi Dehlin [00:45:03] And around how you dress.
Olivia Calvert [00:45:06] Oh, yeah. With how I dressed, there were only a few conversations. My mom would lay down the law occasionally when it came to swimsuits or church dances, she would sometimes say, like, there was one homecoming, my freshman year homecoming, I wore this really cute dress. It was a corset style top and then it flared out on the bottom. It was a short skirt and it was a tank top and it was kind of low cut. So my mom was like, okay, you can show your legs, you can show your shoulders, you can't show both. So she made me wear one of those satin boleros to cover. Ended up being really cute. So occasionally she would push back, but especially as I got older, she kind of laid off the gas and didn't really give me any pushback.
Margi Dehlin [00:45:56] So you had some space. Actually, that's what I'm hearing in some places that for orthodox Mormons, they might not experience that space. Right.
John Dehlin [00:46:07] Your chastity wasn't being policed by your parents.
Olivia Calvert [00:46:10] No.
Margi Dehlin [00:46:10] And control wasn't being like upped as you sort of pushed, Right.
Olivia Calvert [00:46:17] No, it wasn't. And I don't know if I was just good at hiding what I was doing. I think my parents had a tier of like a hierarchy of what they cared about. They saw I was going to seminary every day. They saw I was giving talks in church. They saw I was going to church. They saw I was going to girls. I was doing all the things they really cared about.
Margi Dehlin [00:46:37] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:46:38] So they weren't going to.
Margi Dehlin [00:46:40] Right then those were like, maybe more details.
Olivia Calvert [00:46:44] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [00:46:44] Like, first things first, maybe. And look, she's doing the most important things. All right, My last question about this time is just it's one thing to differentiate and to kind of tune into yourself in this way. You're carving your own path in a way. Right. As a teen, which is really, you know, this is a more unique story. I think I relate a lot to it. How did you feel about yourself as you, like, as a teen? We can say looking back or. But like, what was your experience of yourself as a teen? For example, you can choose. Go against norms. You can choose to go. To go against the current of kind of this social structure of conformity in Mormonism and feel shame still and. Or feel like, still absorb some of the messaging even as you feel emboldened, like it's important. And I'm just curious, did you or did you honestly also differentiate from all those judgments as well, from the narratives. Right. That are spun around people who don't conform in those ways?
Olivia Calvert [00:48:01] So I think I was able to differentiate for the most part. I don't remember feeling a lot of shame around sex. And I felt really excited for that time that I got married to eventually be able to give my full self to a man. And there was really no, there was, there was no shame that I felt around my sexual self being a sexual being. I did not absorb a lot of that messaging. I remember one young woman's lesson, I don't remember exactly which metaphor they used, whether it was the licked cupcake, the chewed up bubble gum, the crumpled flower where you're basically ruined if you've had sex. I remember having that lesson and just didn't agree with it.
Margi Dehlin [00:48:47] Yeah, that's really something, really.
John Dehlin [00:48:52] So going back to that bishop's interview, when you left it, how did you leave that interview? Feeling about future possible interactions with the bishop slash worthiness interviews with church leaders.
Olivia Calvert [00:49:08] I don't really remember. I just know that I didn't really feel like I wanted to talk to bishops anymore. And so I would go in for my temple recommend interviews and I would, in all transparency, just lie. And I felt fine about that. And I think it goes back to my relationship with priesthood authority. I just viewed bishop interviews as kind of unnecessary. The very last question of the temple recommend interview is, do you feel worthy to enter the house of the Lord? And I was always able to honestly say yes, because I did, because I believed I had a personal relationship with God. So why do I need this middleman telling me whether or not I'm worthy if I can just ask God myself? It's kind of how I always viewed it.
John Dehlin [00:50:00] I mean, that's such a radical act as a Mormon, because I think the main way the church. Church gains power over its members is as elevating itself as the one through the leaders of determining your worthiness. So for a Mormon, especially a Mormon young woman, to say, you know what, I decide how worthy I am, I get to work directly with God on that. I don't need you priesthood leaders as a middleman. I can't think of a more radical act as a believing Mormon, honestly.
Margi Dehlin [00:50:33] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:50:35] Yeah. And if it comes to bite me later, then I guess. But I, I just. If Christ is our mediator, we already have a mediator. Why do we need a mediator to the mediator? Just never really made sense to me. And I knew that bishop roulette was a thing. I knew that some bishops would give one kid a different. What's the word? Punishment, I guess, then another kid. Even if they did the exact same thing. I knew that bishops were all different. And that was a problem for me.
Margi Dehlin [00:51:06] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:51:07] Because I feel like God's consistent. If God is consistent, then why are we getting inconsistent messages from different bishops?
John Dehlin [00:51:15] But also that you just don't need a middleman.
Margi Dehlin [00:51:18] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:51:18] And yeah, it's as simple as that too. I don't feel like I need a middleman.
Personality Beyond Mormonism and College Years
Margi Dehlin [00:51:22] So just briefly out. Let's get outside Mormonism for a minute because I do think this part of your personality is really fascinating. So did this show up. Is this, is this part of your personality? Like, did this show up outside Mormonism as well in the way you lived your life? Like, do you find that you were able to, within high school and sort of narratives about what high school should be or what's popular or, you know, what a woman should want, or do you feel like you were pretty discriminating at that time and in that way, like a rebel in many ways. If you didn't buy in, if, if you didn't, if it didn't make sense to you, if you didn't have a buy in, you just wouldn't do it. You didn't play. Or did it really just show up kind of more in the Mormon world for whatever reason?
Olivia Calvert [00:52:19] I think it showed up more in the Mormon world because if I'm thinking about my high school experience, I always did my homework, I always studied for tests, I always went to class. Like, I, I didn't skip out on class. I was always on time. I hated being late to class. I took my, I was in theater and choir in high school, took that very seriously, followed all the rules. So in general, I was a pretty good rule follower. I think it did manifest itself more in the church.
John Dehlin [00:52:57] Yeah. So let's. Should we go to college years?
Olivia Calvert [00:53:01] Sure.
John Dehlin [00:53:02] So you graduate from high school total believer, but total believer. Doing your own type of Mormonism.
Olivia Calvert [00:53:08] Yeah. So I decided to go to BYU Provo. Even though. Yes. Even though going to BYU was cringy to me. My parents both went to byu. Both my brothers were at BYU at the time. We were a big BYU family. That felt kind of like the only option for me also because it was so much cheaper than any other school. I remember my high school counselor being like, you're only applying to one school that's not really smart. And I just kind of felt like I'd get in and it'd be fine.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:42] And it was.
Olivia Calvert [00:53:43] So I went to BYU.
John Dehlin [00:53:44] What year was your freshman year?
Olivia Calvert [00:53:46] 2014. Yeah. So I graduated in 2014, and up until graduation, I had never drank. All my friends were partiers, and I would go to the parties, and they just knew not to push alcohol on me because they knew I wouldn't drink until graduation day. And then I was like, you know what? I'm going to byu. I'm not going to have a chance at having the normal college experience. All my friends were going to go to frats and sororities, and I was a little jealous of that experience they were going to get. So I decided, okay, this is going to be my summer to kind of let loose. I'm going to dabble in drinking a little bit, see how I like it. It's going to be fun. Because I knew a lot of people later on in their life, 30s, 40s, have a bit of a crisis, and they're like, oh, my gosh, I never got to experience any of these things. And the way I viewed it was, I don't want to be having a midlife crisis and turn to alcohol and become an alcoholic. And I had this, like, really bad view of what could happen if I didn't just try it now and get
Margi Dehlin [00:54:56] it out of the system.
John Dehlin [00:54:56] That's remarkable for a teenage.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:58] Yes. It's kind of mind blowing. Wow.
Olivia Calvert [00:55:03] Thank you. Yes. So that summer, I decided to just go a little wild. And I did. And then I fully intended to get back to BYU and never drink again because I wouldn't have the opportunity.
John Dehlin [00:55:17] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:55:19] Little do a lot of people know, there's plenty of opportunity at byu, as it turns out.
Margi Dehlin [00:55:24] Right.
John Dehlin [00:55:25] I didn't know this. Like, I. I never saw anyone drink at byu. I never saw anyone smoke at byu. I led that sheltered BYU life where I had no idea that stuff was going on. That was me.
Margi Dehlin [00:55:37] I definitely.
Olivia Calvert [00:55:38] You knew it was going on for sure. To be fair, I feel like you have to be very discreet. Discreet. Very smart about it. So my cousin, she's a year older than me, and she was at byu, and she called me up one day, and she was like, olivia, do not live in the dorms. It was a nightmare. I hated it. You'll hate it. Live with me off campus.
John Dehlin [00:56:02] So as a freshman, you weren't in the dorms.
Olivia Calvert [00:56:04] Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:56:04] Oh, that's unique. Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:56:06] Yeah. I chose not to live in the dorms. My brothers and my mom were both like, you really should live in the dorms. It's a really unique experience. It's so fun. But I trusted my cousin more because she's a lot like me.
John Dehlin [00:56:18] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:56:19] And. And I wanted to live with her. I figured she'd probably get married really quick. This might be our only chance to live together. So we did. We lived together. Oh, sure enough, she got a boyfriend right away and was married after that first semester that I was there. But we did get to live together. And we happened to have roommates that were very similar to me. And they weren't going to byu. They were going to uvu, or they weren't even going to school. They were just there for the people and the culture. And so after about a month or so, we kind of discovered, like, oh, we're kind of all on the same page. Maybe we can have a real college experience and party a little bit. And we found some guys in our ward who were older, and they could get us alcohol. And so we. We had a little friend group where we would just have little parties, just us in their apartment on weekends.
John Dehlin [00:57:13] And so you'd go to someone's apartment, someone would bring booze or whatever, and you'd all just drink in an apartment. Is that what. Is that what it was?
Olivia Calvert [00:57:22] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:22] We.
Olivia Calvert [00:57:23] We couldn't have Ragers because even though we were off campus, it was still BYU housing and it was really strict rules.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:29] Yep.
Olivia Calvert [00:57:30] And ras would walk around at curfew.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:32] Yep.
Olivia Calvert [00:57:33] Women are not allowed in male housing after midnight. And so they would walk around and they would see if they can hear voices. And so we got in trouble a couple of times for being out after curfew in our guy friend's apartment. But we never got caught for drinking. But you had to be very discreet, very quiet about it. So it wasn't, you know, it wasn't a party.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:55] It was like a small gathering, right?
Olivia Calvert [00:57:57] Yeah, Small gatherings. Just like six of us.
Margi Dehlin [00:58:01] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:58:01] On Weekends, would you dance?
John Dehlin [00:58:04] Would you talk? Like.
Olivia Calvert [00:58:06] Like, yeah. Chat, play games? Could have music on, but couldn't keep the music too loud.
John Dehlin [00:58:10] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:58:11] Can't draw attention to yourself.
John Dehlin [00:58:12] So pretty tame. Pretty tame, but like coolers or a beer. A couple beers. What shots? Like, I don't even know.
Olivia Calvert [00:58:20] Yeah, it was usually there's. Have you heard of reds there? It's apple beer. No, apple beer. It's beer. It's a brand called Reds. The guys really liked reds. And then we would have, like, one bottle of hard liquor as well. And we never got super drunk. I had one rule for myself, and that rule was I never want to get drunk enough to where I do something I regret or wake up and forgot what happened the night before. I don't want to black out. And so it never got too crazy. They weren't wild.
John Dehlin [00:58:53] Okay. Okay. So you say partying, but it sounds just like friends getting together and.
Olivia Calvert [00:58:59] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:59:00] Enjoying a little bit of imbibing while talking and.
Olivia Calvert [00:59:04] Totally.
John Dehlin [00:59:04] Yeah, it's not totally like frat parties or sorority parties.
Olivia Calvert [00:59:08] I did go to a couple of parties, real parties and Orem, like way outside of Provo boundaries where it's a little safer. And I didn't really like those. They were not my vibe.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:20] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [00:59:20] So I did not do that very often. And it was still risky. Someone could still see you and report you to the honor code office.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:28] Yeah. I'm just noticing, like, how you're. The way you're going about this is so internal. It's like what you did with your sexual self, but. And now it's with drinking, where you're kind of connecting with yourself. What seems reasonable. You. You are implementing kind of your own guardrails around the life you want. And it's something that's so.
John Dehlin [00:59:52] Yeah. No, no, Like. Like to the rest of the world, this is so tame and benign. To a Mormon, you're blowing my mind. Like, to a Mormon, this is a radical act of self empowerment. It is both with love, chastity, and with word of wisdom. There's so many liberal Mormons and ex Mormons questioning Mormons that are like, why didn't I feel more empowered to make my own decisions or to decide, determine my own worthiness, or to not feel like I had to confess or just to not feel bad about myself for the decisions I made, let alone why didn't I experiment with normal stuff instead of waiting till my 40s or 50s? This seems so tame to the world and so radical. So radical to the orthodox believing.
Margi Dehlin [01:00:43] Also because it flies in the face of narratives from Mormonism. It's in the narratives in Mormonism about, like, alcohol is like, alcohol. You're gonna be an alcoholic. Like, it's gonna. Or. You know what I mean? Like, everything's so. Can be so extreme in the narratives, and yet you're having this, like, very, very balanced experience overall. Right.
Olivia Calvert [01:01:06] Yeah. And I will. I will say I did feel like it was pretty extreme at the time.
John Dehlin [01:01:11] Yeah. Because it was compared to others. Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:01:15] Well. And I don't think my family's learning this for the first time, I assume. I don't think anyone in my family knew. My husband knows, and I think that's about it. And my friends, obviously, who were there.
Margi Dehlin [01:01:25] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:01:26] But you didn't tell your bishops or anything?
Olivia Calvert [01:01:27] Oh, no, no. My same cousin who I lived with, she told me she gave me a warning. She was like, she had repented to a bishop, and he had threatened her to go to the honor code office. And he said, you realize I can get you kicked out.
Deciding to Serve a Mission
Margi Dehlin [01:01:41] Right.
Olivia Calvert [01:01:41] Byu. And so I just decided, okay, well, then I'm not telling bishops anything. I've heard it's better now that bishops receive instruction to actually not go to the honor code office. Now. Don't know how true that is.
Margi Dehlin [01:01:54] Yeah. I mean, it's such a tenuous experience because all it would take is one person in that friend group feeling guilty, going to a bishop in a moment and then reporting all of you.
John Dehlin [01:02:09] You never got told on.
Margi Dehlin [01:02:10] Yeah. That's remarkable, too.
Olivia Calvert [01:02:12] No, I was very fortunate. No one ever told on me.
Margi Dehlin [01:02:16] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:02:17] I had one of my friends in the friend group. His friend got expelled from BYU for drinking. I believe that's what he got expelled for. And so even, like my friend, I was like, wow, you're really risking it. You're in your master's program. You could get kicked out any day. But I was. I was very fortunate in that I never was told on, and I just never told a bishop. I was like, I'm not going to let one man dictate my college career and strip my money and education from me.
John Dehlin [01:02:53] Yeah. So. So powerful, so wise, honestly. Yeah. Okay. So how long? So eventually you started having thoughts and feelings about a mission. How long into byu? What were you studying in byu, and how did your interest in the mission develop?
Olivia Calvert [01:03:14] So I was studying exercise and wellness. Actually changed my major a couple of times. I started with music, theater, dance. Didn't go anywhere. I went to exercise science. There was too much science. So then I went to athletic training, and I decided I didn't want to be an athletic trainer because they have to work holidays and weekends. So then I settled on exercise and wellness, and that's what I ended up graduating in. Let me tell you, a mission was never on my radar. Ever. Ever. Yeah, missions were embarrassing. Missionaries were embarrassing. The missionary tag was embarrassing. I remember when Book of Mormon the musical came out, and that put another emphasis of how embarrassing it is to be a missionary with the hats and the bikes and. Yeah, I never wanted to be a missionary. So I had friends who went on missions. I was in high school when the mission age changed, and I remember leaders being like, who's excited? Raise your hand if you want to serve a mission now, because now you can go at 19. And so many girls raised their hands. Not I. No. I would scoff if people asked me if I wanted to serve a mission. So it was never on my radar. So what happened was I had about two experiences in my first year and a half at BYU that made me want to change my ways. The first one was summer of 2015. I had come back from a festival, maybe Strawberry Days or something, and I had been drinking that day. And as I'm walking back to my apartment, I run into this guy in my ward. And he was the kind of guy that I wanted to marry. So he was really friendly, really charismatic. Everyone loved him. He had just gotten home from his mission, and I give him a hug and I say hi to him, and his first question is, have you been drinking? And I froze up like I did when the bishop confronted me about my modesty. And I do remember just saying no. And he was like, are you sure? Which is kind of a funny response. Are you sure you haven't been drinking? And I don't remember what happened after that other than I got out of that conversation as fast as I could, and I ran home. And this was where I started feeling shame, because even though I was very confident in my sexual self and my law of chastity rules, I was not as confident in this time of my life when it came to drinking. I felt like, good Mormon boys do not want a party girl. It's trashy. It's not. It's the kind. You're the kind of girl that a boy wants to sleep with but not marry. So these were the. These were messages that I had internalized, right, about, how did you get in? And so that's. That's why it was so done in secret. Like, I did feel a lot more internal shame about that. I just felt like it was gross. Like it wasn't. I Didn't want to always be this girl. Which is crazy, because like you said to the outside world, I was living such a tame life still. But to me, it did feel like I was being super crazy and that. And I was having a hard time dating. It's actually funny. My dad made me sign a verbal contract that I wouldn't get married in the first two years at byu. He did not want me to get married right away.
John Dehlin [01:06:54] That's cool. Yeah, that seems healthy.
Olivia Calvert [01:06:57] I agree. I agree. And I was kind of like, oh, come on, dad. I'm gonna get married right away. I did want to, but I was having a hard time dating. And so in this moment, when this guy's calling me out for drinking, I thought, oh, crap, this is why boys don't want to date me. This is why I haven't found a boyfriend. It's because I'm breaking this commandment, the word of wisdom. And boys can sense that. They can tell I'm not. They can tell I'm not worthy. They can tell I'm not serious.
Margi Dehlin [01:07:27] Got it.
Olivia Calvert [01:07:28] So I felt a lot of shame in that moment. I ran home, I prayed, I asked God to forgive me and to help me stop and to help me be better. So after that, I don't think I drank as much. But it didn't fully stop. I continued for about six more months. And then the real turning point was I went to this concert with my friend, with two of my friends, my roommate, and then a guy friend drove us. It was a rap concert. My friend and I were obsessed with this rapper. Loved him.
John Dehlin [01:08:03] Who is it?
Olivia Calvert [01:08:04] G. Easy. Embarrassed to even say that name. I don't know. Probably because I still carry that, like, shame of that part in my life. So we went to a G EZ concert, and we got there pretty early. We had pre gamed a little bit because we still weren't 21. And so we get to the concert, we were pretty early. Early enough that we could get a close spot to the stage. It was at the Saltaire, so it's standing room only. And near the end of the concert, we noticed that some men backstage were starting to point out girls in the crowd, and they would invite them backstage for the after party. So my friend got invited, and she's like, oh, I'm with her. Can she come? And they're like, yep. And then we're like, oh, we also have our guy friend. They're like, nope, he cannot come. So we ditched him because he's not necessary. Yeah, so we ditched him. They Told us it is G Eazy's after party. You're gonna meet him. And so we're obsessed with the guy. Of course we want to meet him. How exciting. We go backstage, they take us to a tour bus. And the first thing, there's probably 15 girls. I recognized a few of them from Provo. So we were all young, attractive girls from Provo. And they bring us on this bus, and the first thing they do is take our phones and our IDs.
Margi Dehlin [01:09:38] Okay, yeah, good start. Good start for you.
John Dehlin [01:09:43] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:09:45] We walk on the bus and a member of the church would say, the spirit left the room. There was no spirit to be found on that tour bus. It was really dark physically. Like, you could barely see anything. They had all the lights off except some, like, blue. I don't even know what you'd call those little blue lights at the bottom of the bus. So it was really dark physically, and it felt really dark spiritually. And I immediately was like, I need to get out of here. I do not feel comfortable on this space. But I was 19, I was dumb, and I wanted to meet that rapper. And so we stayed and they started offering us drinks. And I fortunately had the wherewithal. Is that how you say it? To not drink any of it? I was like, I'm not going to drink anything these men give me. Don't trust it. So I didn't. And then I started noticing after a few minutes, they started pulling girls one by one to go to the back of the bus to give them a tour. Let me give you a tour of our bus. How exciting. Love to see all your bunk beds. So they start giving girls tours. And I was like, okay, I need to hide. I do not want to be. I don't want to draw any attention to myself. I do not want to be offered a tourist. Oh, and by the way, G. Eazy's not there. This is not his after party. We found that out after about a minute as well. It was the openers after party.
John Dehlin [01:11:19] Oh, Bait and Switch.
Olivia Calvert [01:11:20] Yeah. Yeah. So they totally told us we'd meet the headliner. We get there, he's not even there. And so this guy comes up to me. He's a very large, kind of scary looking man, quite a bit older than me. And he invites me to have a tour of the bus. And I politely rejected him. I said, oh, no, I'm okay. And he's like, oh, come on, it'll take five minutes. So I was like, okay, I go with him. He gives me the quick tour of the bus and Then at the end of the bus, there's this room with just couch lining, lining the walls, and it's still really dark in there. He closes the door and he's like, let's just have a little chat. And we're in there for about five minutes max. He wanted me to dance for him. I said, no. He's like, oh, come on. Just give me a little twirl. So I give him a little awkward twirl, and then he, like, pulls me onto his lap, and he's like. He's like, give me a kiss. And I said, no, I have a boyfriend. I'm sorry. And he, like, looks around and he's like, I don't see a boyfriend. I was like, well, he's not really into rap. He likes country. So he didn't come. And he's like, oh, come on. What's the harm? It's just a little kiss. And I'm panicking now.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:40] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:12:41] Because we're in this back room. No one would hear me if anything were to happen.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:47] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:12:48] I was really scared.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:50] Yep.
Olivia Calvert [01:12:51] So this. Oh, it always makes me emotional because. Yes, it was really scary for me.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:57] I'm so sorry.
Olivia Calvert [01:12:58] I was like, what do I do?
Margi Dehlin [01:12:59] Yep. So.
A Difficult Encounter Before the Mission
Olivia Calvert [01:13:06] I was like, okay, I have two choices. I can give him a little kiss and maybe he'll let me go, or I can say no and risk him getting angry. So I gave him a little kiss. It was quick, did not last long. Then I pulled away, and I was like, I'm sorry. I really don't feel good about this. I have a boyfriend. And he let me go. We went back to the party, and I was able to convince my friend to leave pretty quickly after that. And on the way home, I was like, I never want to be in that situation again. And line from my patriarchal blessing had come to me and said something along the lines of, angels have attended you and have even intervened to save your life at points. And I probably wasn't in as much danger as I felt, but for me, it was my first time being in a situation like that, so I felt like I was in danger. And so that line came to me in my patriarchal blessing, and I was like, you know what? How disrespectful of me for my guardian angels to be making poor decisions like this. So I went home again, and I prayed and I repented, and I said, I'm never drinking again. I'm never listening to rap again. I'm never going to a rap concert again. I'm done. I'm Doubling down on the church. I don't ever want to feel those bad feelings again. I only want to feel good feelings from now on. And so I. That was January of 2016. Never drank again. Totally stopped listening to rap completely. And then that started my journey to, like, full on discipleship, which is a really, really long way of answering your question. That was like my turning point.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:58] Yeah. It's like an emotional one where. Right. You have this experience of incredible vulnerability. Right.
Olivia Calvert [01:15:08] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:15:08] Loss of control. Realizing it's. Is it that sliding doors kind of thing where it could have really. It could have gone one way?
Olivia Calvert [01:15:16] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:15:17] And you. You have that sense that it could have. And then it's like, safety. How do I get to.
Olivia Calvert [01:15:24] Yeah, safe part. And I just. I always knew that eventually I wanted to settle down and be a good Mormon girl and live all the commandments. I just didn't know when that would happen. And that was the point where I was like, okay, now's the time. I. I did my. I did my thing. I did my college experience. Now it's time to get serious and find a husband. And so I got super involved in my ward. Got a calling right away. Started reading my scriptures more. Didn't go to work on Sundays anymore. I worked at Dillard's at the time, and occasionally I had to work Sundays. Stopped working on Sundays. And then spring of 2016, it was May, I was home, and one of my friends from high school had just gone home from her mission. And so it was. It was sacrament meeting. And during that meeting, I had my one and only really like, rel. Relevatory experience. I was just sitting there and all of a sudden I hear this voice. It wasn't like a. Oh, who said that? It was in. It was in my head, but it was not my voice. And it said, you will serve a mission. It was a directive. It was a command. Don't know where it came from. Certainly wasn't me because I never wanted to. It was like the worst possible scenario for me to go on a mission. But I was in a place with the church at that point where I was like, okay, maybe I can do this. I was also in between majors. Wasn't quite sure which major I wanted to pursue at that time. So kind of a crossroads. So when I received this direction, I was like, okay, I guess I'll do it. I guess I'll serve a mission. Told my family the next week. They were shocked. And did your.
John Dehlin [01:17:18] Did your parents want you to go? Do they have a preference?
Olivia Calvert [01:17:21] They never pushed it. My mom didn't serve a mission, and they just knew I didn't want to. And my mom was good with my brothers as well. She told me just the other day, she was like, I told your brothers, don't go on a mission because of us. Don't go on a mission because you feel like you have to go on a mission because you want to.
John Dehlin [01:17:37] But were they like, we're so proud of you because you want to go on a mission or not? Were they neutral about it?
Olivia Calvert [01:17:42] I think they had mixed feelings. I think they were kind of sad that I would be gone for a year and a half. It's kind of a bummer, but I think they were proud too.
Margi Dehlin [01:17:51] Had your brothers decided to go on missions? Did you have any type of family culture around where people. Yeah. Had people gone on mission?
Olivia Calvert [01:18:01] Yeah. So both my brothers served missions.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:03] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [01:18:05] It was just my mom who hadn't.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:06] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [01:18:07] And my dad did as well.
John Dehlin [01:18:08] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [01:18:09] So they were definitely surprised, and I would think pleasantly surprised, but also a little sad they were gonna lose me for that time. So I put in my papers in June, got my call in July. I was off to the Washington D.C. south Mission. Said that weird Washington D.C. south Mission.
John Dehlin [01:18:26] Does that include temple?
Olivia Calvert [01:18:28] It was not a temple mission. It was just a normal mission. It was Northern Virginia, the suburbs of D.C. very rich.
John Dehlin [01:18:37] Very, like, false church and.
Olivia Calvert [01:18:40] Yes. Falls Church. McLean. McLean Bible is like the big mega church out there.
John Dehlin [01:18:47] A lot of these wealthy Beltway Mormons, right?
Olivia Calvert [01:18:50] Yeah. Yes.
John Dehlin [01:18:52] People work in Congress.
Olivia Calvert [01:18:55] Lots of lawyers. Lots of people on the Hill.
John Dehlin [01:18:58] Probably FBI and CIA people.
Olivia Calvert [01:19:00] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:19:00] State. State Department people.
Margi Dehlin [01:19:02] Yes.
Olivia Calvert [01:19:03] Yeah. We had one bishop in one of my areas who claimed to be a. Oh, man. Air. Air traffic control guy. But we're like, no way you're CIA.
Margi Dehlin [01:19:13] We know it's a cover.
Olivia Calvert [01:19:14] We know you're CIA.
John Dehlin [01:19:17] Interesting. Okay. How was your mission?
Mission Life and Finding a Love Interest
Olivia Calvert [01:19:20] Mission overall was great. Loved my awards. The members were incredible. They took care of us. I gained, like, 40 pounds in my first area. We got fed every single night. Three course meals. They loved us there. Members were great. Area was great. Loved Virginia. I could have moved there. The missionary part, I never quite loved. Being a missionary was really hard for me. Just having to proselyte all day was not my thing. It's not how I envisioned living a year and a half of my life. The really strict schedule was hard, but being with a Companion 24, seven was hard. But overall, I loved it. I actually just recently read my mission journals a couple weeks ago, and apparently I loved everything about my mission. According to My mission journal.
John Dehlin [01:20:17] And was it spiritual? Was it. Was it good for your testimony?
Olivia Calvert [01:20:21] Yeah. So it's funny because I like to tell my husband that I've never really had a strong testimony of Joseph Smith and the restoration. And I've always had some level of discomfort around that. And then I was reading my journals and I got to this part near the end of my mission. Elder Anderson had come to visit. We had a lot of.
John Dehlin [01:20:42] Apostle Neil Anderson.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:43] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:20:44] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [01:20:44] We had a lot of apostle visits. I think just the proximity to D.C. they were visiting a lot. So Elder Anderson had come, and they always love to center their visits around the restoration. And during that meeting. Okay, well, let me tell you what I remember. What I remember is we took a mission picture and it took forever. And I remember shaking Elder Anderson's hand. But I wrote about an experience that was apparently so profound, so life changing. There was an elder who was singing Joseph Smith's first prayer. And the third verse goes, suddenly a light descended brighter far than noonday sun. And I wrote in my journal that when he got to that part of the song, I felt the burning in my bosom that I had been craving, that I had never felt before. I had finally felt it. And I burst into tears. And I just knew that Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ and that he did restore this church. Apparently, I had that experience. I don't remember it at all. So when I read this journal, I was, like, shocked that I had had that experience, because I don't remember it. I told my mom this the other day, and she goes, well, that's why they tell you to write in your journals, because you forget. But, yeah, I mean, overall, it was experience. It was spiritual. I would say it was my peak spirituality. I think it is for most people. I mean, you are fully immersed in the scriptures every day.
John Dehlin [01:22:15] Many say the missions are more to convert the missionaries than they are to convert, you know, converts.
Olivia Calvert [01:22:22] Oh, yeah. I just went to a mission reunion a week and a half ago, and my mission president said that. He said the most important convert on the mission is you. Yeah, and that's totally what happened to me. My dad had always told me the story of how he had his. His main conversion on his mission. He got to drive around. He was in the office, and he drove around Elder Nelson, now President Nelson, and he said the way they talked, the conversations they had, he just knew that they were a prophet. So I was kind of waiting for that experience to have on my mission, that conversion experience. I don't feel like I really? Ever got it. But according to that journal entry, it seems like I did.
John Dehlin [01:23:04] Okay, so you. You did the 18 months, finished with honor and all that?
Olivia Calvert [01:23:09] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:23:09] And you met someone on your mission that was important.
Olivia Calvert [01:23:12] Yeah, I met my husband on my mission. We met day one in the field. So he was a Spanish elder. I was English. So he was in the Mexico MTC and I was in the Provo MTC, but we both met in D.C. and he's from Mexico? No, he's from Tooele.
John Dehlin [01:23:28] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [01:23:28] Here in Utah.
John Dehlin [01:23:29] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [01:23:29] But he was just in the Mexico mtc because sometimes they send them there, I guess.
John Dehlin [01:23:34] Oh. Because he was Spanish speaking. DC Missionary. So.
Margi Dehlin [01:23:38] For the language.
Olivia Calvert [01:23:38] For the language.
John Dehlin [01:23:40] That's cool.
Olivia Calvert [01:23:41] Yeah, he liked it being in the center of Mexico City. So we get there on day one. We met at the Lincoln Memorial, and what's so cute and fun. And our mission president and his wife to this day still love this story. They like to take a picture with all their new missionaries at the Lincoln Memorial. And so that we had a pretty small group. There were only five of us, three sisters and two elders. And if you look at the picture that we took, it goes, sister, sister. Me, Sister Huntsman, President Huntsman, my husband.
John Dehlin [01:24:13] Oh, is this Paul Huntsman? This is.
Olivia Calvert [01:24:16] This is David Huntsman.
John Dehlin [01:24:17] Okay. This is one of the Huntsman's sons.
Olivia Calvert [01:24:19] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:24:20] David is. Is one of the. Yeah. We've had James Huntsman on Mormon stories. This would be the brother of both John Huntsman Jr. And of James Huntsman, son of John Huntsman Sr. The Mormon. The late Mormon billionaire.
Margi Dehlin [01:24:36] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:24:36] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [01:24:37] Yeah. So when you. I actually listened to that interview with his brother James. James.
John Dehlin [01:24:42] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:24:42] And it was crazy how similar they look and talked. I was like, geez, so much like my mission president. Yeah. Yeah. So that's. I mean, they're the best people in the world. They are just so humble, so kind, just top rate people. But yeah, we took a picture with them and so it was like, me, Sister Huntsman, President Huntsman, and then my husband. And so we always joke that they were literally the only two people standing between me and my husband getting married. Yeah, we met day one. Didn't see each other very much throughout the mission. And then at the very end, we served in the same area, and we were only in the same area for a couple of weeks because he went home early. He has chronic back pain, and he felt like he really needed to just go home. He felt really good about it. So he went home after about 16 months. And after he went home, I Felt really sad that he had left. And so I had reached out to a companion who was home already, and I asked her if she could reach out to him and tell him to email me. So he did. He emailed me the next week, and we wrote for the remainder of my mission, which was about two months, and then the rest is history. Came to my homecoming right after I got home. And we got married 11 months later.
John Dehlin [01:26:09] So was he younger than you?
Olivia Calvert [01:26:11] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:26:12] By a year, Year and a half.
Olivia Calvert [01:26:14] Almost two years. Just shy of two years.
John Dehlin [01:26:17] So you robbed the cradle.
Margi Dehlin [01:26:18] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:26:19] You're a cougar. Basically.
Olivia Calvert [01:26:20] Yeah. Okay, totally.
Margi Dehlin [01:26:24] What was it about him and knowing him on your mission, what you knew, that made you kind of want to.
John Dehlin [01:26:31] Stood out.
Margi Dehlin [01:26:32] Yeah, that stood out. That made you want to stay in contact.
Olivia Calvert [01:26:35] So part of it was we had this really small group that all came in together, and every time I would see them at transfers, I would get so excited. And you kind of have a camaraderie with the group you come in with. But I was always just drawn to him. I. I don't. I mean, he's my type. He's tall, blonde, blue eyes. That's what I'm into, I guess. And I just always was drawn to him. Whenever I would see him occasionally throughout the mission, I would always make a point to talk to him. And we had a very strict elder sister rules on the mission. We were not allowed to hang out on P days. We had to keep all of our conversations very short and like district meeting only. You cannot really talk. You cannot. What's the word? You can't fraternize.
Margi Dehlin [01:27:32] Yeah, yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:27:32] No fraternizing with the elders. So I would always try to talk to him, and then he would try to get out of the conversation quickly. And he told me that whenever we talked, he would think about it for three days. It would impact him.
John Dehlin [01:27:46] He'd be.
Olivia Calvert [01:27:47] He would think about that conversation for three days afterwards. But I don't really know. At first it wasn't a crush. I was just drawn to him and just wanted to talk to him. And then when we were assigned to the same area at the end of our mission, that's when I was like, I was really excited to see his face and my face next to each other. So that was kind of like a sign to me that, oh, maybe I do actually have stronger feelings for him. And then him going home, I think too was another wake up call. Like, oh, I shouldn't be this sad that some elder's going home. So that's when I kind of realized. Okay. I think I actually do have a bit of a crush on him.
Margi Dehlin [01:28:25] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:28:26] So when you got home and you dated for the year, did you get a sense for his style of Mormonism? Was he super orthodox? Was he hardcore? Was he more liberal or loosey goosey as a. As a Mormon? And did you all have compatibility in that regard?
Olivia Calvert [01:28:46] Well, his name is Hiram first.
John Dehlin [01:28:49] Hiram. Hiram from Tooele?
Olivia Calvert [01:28:51] Yep. Hiram from Tooele. So that tells you anything about his family? Very orthodox. I was actually a little worried about it because
Margi Dehlin [01:29:04] there's a.
Olivia Calvert [01:29:05] There's a name for super orthodox men. Peter priesthoods. I was a little worried I'd have a Peter priesthood on my hands, and I kind of knew I would maybe have to chip away at him a little bit.
John Dehlin [01:29:16] Because that wasn't your dad.
Olivia Calvert [01:29:18] No, no, that was not my dad. And I was a little worried that he'd be kind of judgmental and super obey every single rule. But as we were dating, it became apparent that even though he was very orthodox and he did have a very strong testimony, he was a little more open to different ways of thinking. I wasn't as worried about it.
Margi Dehlin [01:29:45] When you share during those months, if you did share, you know, part of your story, your, you know, differentiation, let's just say in certain areas, sexual self time at byu, where you actually did explore with, you know, some alcohol and other things. Do you. How did he respond to that?
John Dehlin [01:30:10] Or did he know or.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:11] Or was that shared during that time?
Olivia Calvert [01:30:13] Yeah, that's actually a really good question because two weeks after the mission, we had just started dating. We went to one of my companions homecomings together. And on the drive home, I had told him all about my past, and I was very pleasantly surprised by his response. He was like, you know what? That just makes me like you more. Makes me respect you more. Like, it makes me think you're so much more incredible. Yeah. So he didn't judge me at all. He didn't view me as unworthy of his love at all.
John Dehlin [01:30:44] Right.
Olivia Calvert [01:30:45] So that made me feel like, okay, this guy's awesome. He's not gonna judge me.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:49] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:30:50] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:51] It's big.
John Dehlin [01:30:52] And do you think there were conversations about this is probably too much to expect, but that you would have conversations when we have a family culture after we get married in the temple, I want us to be the cool Mormon family, not the uptight, nerdy, uncool Mormon family like your family culture was. Does that make sense?
Olivia Calvert [01:31:14] It makes sense. And we did not really have that conversation, I think, because we were both such recently returned Missionaries. We were like, oh, no, we're gonna be the perfect stellar.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:25] Yeah. In each other.
Olivia Calvert [01:31:26] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:31:27] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:27] Got it.
John Dehlin [01:31:27] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [01:31:28] Absolutely.
Temple Sealing and Early Marriage
John Dehlin [01:31:29] Okay. So what year we all sealed in the temple?
Olivia Calvert [01:31:34] We got married 2019. March of 2019 in the San Diego temple.
John Dehlin [01:31:39] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [01:31:39] Because let me tell you another thing that's embarrassing. Getting married in a Utah temple. You gotta get married outside.
John Dehlin [01:31:46] Denver's got a temple.
Olivia Calvert [01:31:48] Yeah. I didn't love the Denver temple and they had Fort Collins as well. The Fort Collins temple is really pretty. But I had always loved the San Diego temple. I kind of wanted my wedding to be as non Mormon as possible while still being Mormon. So I made everyone go out to San Diego to have a little. What do you call those weddings that are outside of your house? Destination wedding.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:14] Thank you.
Olivia Calvert [01:32:15] Yeah, I wanted a bit of a destination wedding, so.
John Dehlin [01:32:17] Sounds like you're a bridezilla, basically.
Olivia Calvert [01:32:19] Total bridezilla. Well, I hate. I hate the having preferences.
John Dehlin [01:32:26] I'm kidding.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:28] And by the way, there are worst places to have people go than San Diego.
John Dehlin [01:32:33] Amen.
Olivia Calvert [01:32:34] Well, and I had had cousins that had got. I had two other cousins that got married in Southern California.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:38] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:32:39] Neither of them were from there. And so I think I kind of viewed their example of, oh, well, all of our family went out to California for them. They'll do it for me too.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:46] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:32:46] And I really don't like the Mormon wedding receptions.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:51] Yep.
Olivia Calvert [01:32:52] I don't like how casual they are.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:54] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:32:54] I don't like that anyone and their mother can come. So I kind of liked the idea of having a set guest list.
Margi Dehlin [01:33:00] I so get it. I. So you wanted to personalize it in some way and get out of kind of. There is. There can be a factory sort of. Right sense of weddings in Utah. Yes.
Olivia Calvert [01:33:16] Yeah, there's a factory. Very unique. There's nothing like an LDS wedding.
John Dehlin [01:33:22] Okay, cool. Really quickly, had you made peace with garments by the time you were married in the temple? And did you know. How did you feel about temple attendance and the temple through your temple marriage? That's what I mean.
Olivia Calvert [01:33:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my temple, my first temple experience was pretty uneventful. I was warned that it would be different. My cousin took me through the same cousin I lived with at byu. She was my escort and she had told me, okay, live. It's a little weird at first, but just go with it. Just focus on how you feel. Think about all your family is there to support you. And it gets easier. It gets more normal the more you go. So it was pretty. Pretty uneventful. I enjoyed it for the most part when it came to garments. I also think, well, it's just my time to start wearing garments on the mission. I loved them. I wore them every single day, even in the 95 degree, 100 humidity days, dripping sweat. I don't know how I did that, but I didn't have a problem with garments. And so by the time we got sealed, it was just normal.
Margi Dehlin [01:34:47] Okay.
John Dehlin [01:34:48] So you may not like these, this phrase, and I'm using it loosely, but it sounds like by the time you got married in the temple, the church had fully tamed you. In other words, sort of orthodoxed out of you your casualness or your unorthodoxy. Because it sounds like you were on the orthodox train by the time you get temple married in after your mission, right?
Olivia Calvert [01:35:11] Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. I was fixed.
John Dehlin [01:35:14] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [01:35:15] By the mission.
John Dehlin [01:35:16] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [01:35:17] All that rebelliousness was temporarily.
John Dehlin [01:35:20] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:35:20] Subdued.
Olivia Calvert [01:35:21] Subdued, yes.
John Dehlin [01:35:22] We're talking six years ago, right?
Margi Dehlin [01:35:23] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:35:24] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [01:35:24] Yeah. So I, it was funny. I was, when I was reading my journals, I got to the end of my mission and I started reading my journals from right after my mission and I remember writing about how sad I was. I had this righteous sorrow for my family who hadn't changed. Like I thought my mission was supposed to really change them and make them more righteous, but they were the exact same people they were when I left.
John Dehlin [01:35:47] You were hoping they would take the gospel more seriously?
Olivia Calvert [01:35:50] Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I was hoping that because they always say, like, families of missionaries are extra blessed and your family can be converted. And at the time of my mission, my mom was kind of going through her own face, faith struggles and so I was hoping that my mission would totally fix her testimony and bring her back completely.
John Dehlin [01:36:14] She share that stuff with you?
Olivia Calvert [01:36:16] Yeah, she's shared a bit about it with me.
John Dehlin [01:36:18] Like at the time she was having a faith journey. Did she tell you the things that were causing her to question or have doubts?
Olivia Calvert [01:36:26] No, she, she didn't. But in her emails she would always tell me that like I was an inspiration to her and I made her want to be better and she was reading her scriptures more because of me. So I, I knew that she wasn't currently attending the temple at the time. And I had confided in like my mission president and other authority figures on my mission about that and I wrote down I had been promised by a and area authority. He said, by the time you get home from your mission, your mom is going to be in full back into full standing with the church and she's going to be right on it's.
John Dehlin [01:37:04] Not like she was an apostasy. No. That's interesting.
Margi Dehlin [01:37:07] And you really. And it's. What's interesting is that's something that you had always really loved and valued about your family.
Olivia Calvert [01:37:14] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:37:14] But the mission kind of did a write over over that and created it. It created a scarcity or a deficit where that didn't always exist in you.
Olivia Calvert [01:37:24] Yeah. It made me worried about them when I never had a worry about them at all before my mission.
John Dehlin [01:37:29] Interesting.
Margi Dehlin [01:37:30] Yeah, that is interesting.
Olivia Calvert [01:37:31] Yeah. So I remember writing about how I was sad that they hadn't become those stellar Mormons in the time that I was gone.
John Dehlin [01:37:39] It makes me kind of sad.
Olivia Calvert [01:37:41] Yeah, it makes me sad, too, because my mom is like the best person ever. She's a saint. And even looking back six years ago, she was still a saint. I mean, the woman went through hell to get her temple recommend back so that she could attend my wedding.
John Dehlin [01:37:55] Oh, she did?
Olivia Calvert [01:37:56] Yeah. Yeah. So she didn't. She had a time where she didn't have a temple recommend. Those details, I don't know, but don't want to know, don't care to know. But I know that she worked really hard to get to my wedding, and I didn't appreciate that as much then at the time, because I probably judged her a little bit more for it than I should have. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:38:20] Interesting. All right, so you get married in the temple. You finished BYU after, you know, you got married.
Marriage, Schooling, and Cracks Appearing
Olivia Calvert [01:38:30] Yes. I had two years left of school, so I did part time on campus, part time online for a While. Graduated in 2021. I didn't know how I was going to graduate because the last classes I needed were all in person and we were living in Salt Lake. But Covid made it so that I could do all the rest of my classes online and I was able to graduate.
John Dehlin [01:38:54] That's four years ago.
Olivia Calvert [01:38:55] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:38:56] Okay, so when did. When did sort of you start feeling pulled more back towards, we could say, unorthodox moral Mormonism, casual Mormonism. When did the cracks start developing? And was it your husband first or you or both?
Olivia Calvert [01:39:14] I think like many people, it started in 2020.
John Dehlin [01:39:19] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [01:39:19] During COVID We're all told we're not allowed to go to church, and we already. We were having a hard time in our award. Didn't love our callings. It was kind of a cultural shock. I. I expected Utah wards to all be massive with a ton of kids, ton of youth, and this first ward we were in had hardly any.
John Dehlin [01:39:42] What town was it we were in?
Olivia Calvert [01:39:44] South Salt Lake.
John Dehlin [01:39:46] Yeah, Salt Lake's. Decaying. Mormon wise.
Olivia Calvert [01:39:50] Yeah. So our ward was very small. Didn't have a lot of connections, didn't really love being there. And then Covid came and it was like, sweet, we don't have to go to church. And then once we were allowed to come back, we didn't. We just chose the hybrid option because they. They made it optional. You can watch church from home, but we recommend you come back if you can, if you're healthy, then come back to church. But we didn't for a few months, and we didn't really talk about it. We just kind of both quietly agreed we didn't really want to go. And then eventually, after about. After a couple months of that, Hyram's parents had noticed they're coming to Sunday dinner sooner than they should be. Like, they should be at church right now, but they're at our house. So they called us out on it. They said, hey, are you guys not going to church? We were like, no, we're kind of doing, like, the online church right now. They're like, you should go back. So we did, but that's kind of when we started. That's when we started feeling a little bit of resentment towards church culture and Utah culture. I think specifically, we started having hard times with, like, ward boundaries and how you have to go to this ward, even if you don't connect with anybody there, even if that's not where you want to be, you have to go there because it's the rule, and the bishop only has revelation over you. And so you can't go to another ward because that bishop cannot receive revelation for you, which we always kind of thought was silly. We started having those kinds of conversations in 2020 about things that just don't really make sense to us. That being one, starting having conversations about, like, what is doctrine, what is culture, what is tradition, and how can we navigate this as a couple to figure out what's best for us? 2020 is when we started having those conversations. And then they continued throughout 2021, 2022. We talked about the Word of Wisdom a lot.
John Dehlin [01:41:51] What was driving that?
Olivia Calvert [01:41:54] I don't really know. I mean, Maybe the conversations around, like, legalizing marijuana in Utah for medicinal use. That was kind of a big conversation around that time.
Margi Dehlin [01:42:11] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:42:12] I don't really know why we were talking about word of Wisdom so much, but we were.
John Dehlin [01:42:16] Were you missing apple beer?
Olivia Calvert [01:42:19] No, no. But what's funny is.
John Dehlin [01:42:21] Or rap music.
Olivia Calvert [01:42:22] Rap music Now, I was not missing my rap music, no siree. But ultimately, we did come to the conclusion in 2023, I believe that we felt like the word of wisdom is what it says. It's not a commandment. It should have never been made a commandment. We felt like that was a mistake made by the leadership. They should not have made it a commandment because it became a much bigger deal culturally than it ever should have became. The litmus test of. Are you a good Mormon? Because if you walk into a coffee shop, you're bad, you're on the wrong path, and you're going down to hell. Like, it's a slippery slope from there. Once you start drinking coffee, show us
John Dehlin [01:43:04] your beverage you've got right there. Oh, yeah, you got a Bjorn's Brew.
Olivia Calvert [01:43:10] This is a free shout out to Bjorn's Brew.
Margi Dehlin [01:43:12] What is the order of the day? Do you want to share? I'm kind of curious.
Olivia Calvert [01:43:16] This is called the Sinners. I totally got it. In homage to coming on Mormon stories today.
John Dehlin [01:43:23] It's really called the Sitters.
Olivia Calvert [01:43:25] It's called the Sinners. Yeah, they have the. They have a saints and a sinner's drink.
Margi Dehlin [01:43:28] Oh, funny.
Olivia Calvert [01:43:29] It's a latte with caramel vanilla, and
Margi Dehlin [01:43:33] I don't remember the last one.
Olivia Calvert [01:43:35] It's good, but you can tell it's sugar free.
Margi Dehlin [01:43:37] You can kind of get that.
Olivia Calvert [01:43:38] Sugar free.
Margi Dehlin [01:43:39] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:43:39] Taste. Yeah. So when we're talking about the word of wisdom, we're like, it doesn't make sense. God gave us coffee beans. He gave us green tea leaves. You know what? He did not give us energy drinks. We made those up. We made those in a factory. And they're horrible for you.
John Dehlin [01:43:58] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:44:00] And so we were just kind of thinking like, common sense wise, the word wisdom just doesn't really make sense to us the way that it's lived. The way that it's lived in Utah, the way people have. And even, I mean, church leadership has clarified the word of wisdom to mean it's no coffee and tea. And that just never made sense to either of us. But.
John Dehlin [01:44:21] But what I now wrote really sticks out to me is your high school years and even early BYU years were marked by you having autonomous spirituality, a sense of both autonomy and a direct relationship with God. Where you said the church really is. Is it needed to arbitrate or mediate between me and God? But then you had that bad experience with the rapper and the rapper, but the rapper.
Olivia Calvert [01:44:52] Yeah, yeah, the bus.
John Dehlin [01:44:54] And you cleaned up your act and you became orthodox and you served a mission and you were fully on the orthodox train, even looking down on your parents for their casualness. So at some point in those first four years of marriage, you started shifting from being on the orthodox train to feeling like you might know better than the brethren. And I don't say that to really put you against them, but you started reclaiming your own spiritual or moral autonomy in ways that you would have seen as problematic just three or four years prior. Was that shift conscious? Were you like, I'm backsliding or, whoa, I missed the autonomy? Were you and your husband going, wow, looks like we're not going to be orthodox hardcore Mormons. Looks like we want to be self directed, loosey goosey, more casual or buffet Mormons. Like how conscious in your brain and in your communication with your husband was that shift from extrinsic authority to internal authority.
Olivia Calvert [01:46:08] I don't know how conscious it was, but I do know around that time we started realizing, okay, we're the church of Jesus Christ. I don't see Christ in the lifestyles of so many church members. I was seeing Word of Wisdom. I was seeing garment wearing. I was seeing all these visual expressions of how people are good Mormons here. I wasn't seeing Christ, and neither was he. And I think the big shift was we wanted to become better Christians. And so we started focusing more on things Christ said and Christ taught. And nothing about Utah culture that I could see was really found in Christ's
John Dehlin [01:46:59] words because Christ had long hair and he drank alcohol and.
Olivia Calvert [01:47:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how does not. How does abstaining from coffee and tea make you a better Christian?
John Dehlin [01:47:11] Christ didn't say anything about coffee and tea.
Margi Dehlin [01:47:13] Yeah, part of it, what I'm hearing, is it like, the. What Christ focused on, like, what was most important in the way of, like, what he preached. You're not, like, necessarily witnessing that or hearing about those messages. Is that part of it, too?
Olivia Calvert [01:47:30] Yeah. And we're a new married couple. We're poor, we're living in a small apartment, and we're seeing all these crazy, wealthy members of the church with their big houses and their multimillionaire companies just, like, flaunting their wealth and the culture of a very materialistic culture within the church.
Margi Dehlin [01:47:56] Right.
Olivia Calvert [01:47:57] So we noticed all those things and we're like, this isn't very Christian. There's. Did you watch the Pope documentary recently on Netflix after the Pope died?
John Dehlin [01:48:09] No. So tell us about it.
Olivia Calvert [01:48:11] So Pope Francis, there's a lot of documentaries about him. I'm trying to remember the one on Netflix, what it's called. But anyway, there's this one part in the documentary that really kind of encap encapsulates the way we felt. Where he said a church, he said it in Latin. So I'm trying to remember kind of what the translation is in. In English or he said it in Italian. I don't remember. Said it another language. Basically, what he said was, a church that sets its faith and riches. Christ is not there. And that really hit us both pretty hard. Like, it's true. Christ was a man of poverty. Christ was a man of humility. And there's so much pride and riches that I'm seeing in the church. And so culturally, we were really struggling being immersed in that culture and seeing it all the time and not seeing Christ.
John Dehlin [01:49:10] There's a lot of wealthy Utah Mormons, especially, like in Holiday, in Park City, in Northeast Salt Lake, Alpine, Highland, Lehigh, even Provo, Orem. The more east you go along the west side's front up into the hills, there's just a ton of wealthy Mormons.
Olivia Calvert [01:49:29] Yeah, you know, totally. And it just makes you wonder, like, is this Christ Church?
John Dehlin [01:49:35] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:49:36] Because it doesn't really feel like it. It does feel different outside of Utah.
John Dehlin [01:49:42] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:49:42] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:49:42] You guys both know you didn't grow up in Utah. It is very different. Utah has a very unique culture. And we were both just really, really struggling with that.
John Dehlin [01:49:50] Interesting.
Olivia Calvert [01:49:51] But our testimonies were still strong.
John Dehlin [01:49:53] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:49:54] But that made us start to think for ourselves a little bit more.
John Dehlin [01:49:58] Yeah. I should mention bountiful. And, you know, north. North Salt Lake. Again, a lot of super wealthy. Yeah. Mormons there. Okay. You mentioned going to Europe and how that affected your view. Do you want to talk about that?
Shifting Perspective on Sharing the Gospel
Olivia Calvert [01:50:13] Yeah. So I mentioned earlier in my childhood how I never felt like I wanted to share the gospel with people. I never pitied people who weren't in the church. I never felt like, oh, man, they'd be so much happier if they had the gospel. That just didn't really occur to me. So then we went to Europe in spring of 2022. We did London and Italy, and we interacted with a lot of people on the trains and in restaurants and in stores.
John Dehlin [01:50:42] And you and your husband.
Olivia Calvert [01:50:43] Yeah, we went with his family to England.
John Dehlin [01:50:46] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [01:50:46] And then he and I separated off and did a week in Italy after that. So it was just me and him in Italy. When we were in Italy, we were on a day trip and we had a couple of tour guides. And I remember looking at the tour guides and being like, you know, I don't know if they need the gospel.
Margi Dehlin [01:51:04] I have.
Olivia Calvert [01:51:05] I have no poll to share it with them. And I don't Even really think they need it. Like, they seem good.
John Dehlin [01:51:13] They seem pretty sharp together.
Olivia Calvert [01:51:15] Yeah. They. All the people we interacted with, I mean, everyone has their own problems, but they seemed to be doing great. We know that Europe's a pretty secular place right now. And I just didn't feel like I had to share the gospel with anybody that I talked to and Europe. And that was kind of a moment for me because it made me see the world from a different lens. Like there are billions of people in this world who do not have the gospel. How is it that we, this tiny little band of church members, how is it that we have it all? And it's kind of bold to claim that we are better than all of them.
John Dehlin [01:52:04] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:52:04] And that this is something that they need. That actually brings me back to something I forgot to mention from my mission experience. My biggest shelf item that came from my mission was how can people in other churches receive similar spiritual experiences where it confirms their religious choice?
John Dehlin [01:52:25] Was it a Muslim you met?
Margi Dehlin [01:52:27] Yes.
Olivia Calvert [01:52:27] Yeah. So we met a Muslim. She was a former Christian and we were talking about Christ and she's like, oh my gosh, we love Christ in Islam. And we're like, huh? You do? And she's like, oh yeah, he was a prophet. Like, we totally revere Jesus. And she told us an experience that she had where Christ appeared to her. I don't remember if it was in a dream or a vision, but Christ appeared to her and told her that she needed to convert to Islam. And as a missionary, imagine you're like, yeah. You're like, no, those experiences are reserved for us. Right. And so how do you.
John Dehlin [01:53:09] Jesus ain't telling nobody to be a mother.
Olivia Calvert [01:53:12] How do you settle that? I wrote in my mission scriptures, like Muslim questions question mark or Quran question mark, something like that. Like, how is it there are billions of Muslims out there.
Margi Dehlin [01:53:22] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:53:23] So many of them have had experiences like this. They are just as certain that Muhammad was their Joseph Smith and he is the prophet.
John Dehlin [01:53:32] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [01:53:33] They're so certain.
John Dehlin [01:53:35] So Allah is God.
Olivia Calvert [01:53:37] Yeah. So how are we supposed to tell them that their experience is totally invalid and not true?
Margi Dehlin [01:53:45] And that's the difference between having a church that believes it is a true church and the true.
Olivia Calvert [01:53:53] Yeah, yeah. And I just don't think that I have not heard a good answer for that. The best answer I've heard is, oh, well, they will accept it after they die.
Margi Dehlin [01:54:06] They.
Olivia Calvert [01:54:06] If they've lived a great, honest, Christ like life, even if they don't believe in Christ, if they've lived a Christlike life. When they receive the gospel, after they die, they'll accept it. They'll be fine. And that answer just never was really enough for me because we are simultaneously saying, like, this is the capital T, one true church, and this is the only way to live your life and have joy, that ultimate joy, and to live with God again. So it kind of felt like a little cop out to say, well, after they die, they'll accept it.
Margi Dehlin [01:54:40] Yeah.
Media, Reality TV, and Questioning Orthodoxy
John Dehlin [01:54:41] And then you mentioned watching Real Housewives of Salt Lake and Secret Lies of Mormon Wives.
Olivia Calvert [01:54:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:54:47] As impacting your testimony, your worldview. How. How did that happen?
Olivia Calvert [01:54:51] Yeah. So in 2022, I had just had my daughter and I was home alone. I had a lot of free time, and I thought I would watch the Real Housewives. I think it came out in 2020 or 2021. And at that point, I was still pretty recently returned missionary. They don't represent us. I don't want to watch that. That's dumb. But in 2022, I was like, you know what? I do want to watch it. So I started the Real Housewives. Now, there's two characters that I love. You've got Heather Gay, who you've had on the podcast, and then you have Lisa Barlow. Now, Heather Gay is like classic Mormon. She's pioneer stock. She grew up. Actually, I don't know if she grew
John Dehlin [01:55:35] up in Utah, but she grew up in Colorado.
Olivia Calvert [01:55:38] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
Margi Dehlin [01:55:39] That's right.
Olivia Calvert [01:55:39] I should have known that. But she grew up super Mormon. She served a mission. She got married in the temple. She had kids young. She was Relief Society president. I believe she did all the things right. I don't think she ever really diverted from the path at all. She was black and white. She was a black and white Mormon. And then you have Lisa Barlow, who did not grow up orthodox Mormon at all. She grew up in New York. I. If I remember correctly, I think her parents were converts, so they didn't have that experience of raising their family Mormon. So it was much more in the gray area. And now she. I believe she's the only one on the cast who claims to be a member of the church. She owns a tequila company. She's not wearing her garments publicly. At least she cusses like sailor. But she's very proud to be a member of the church. And it was so fascinating to me to see this tension between the two where Heather is like, no, you can't claim to be Mormon and live this lifestyle. Kind of like a that's not fair attitude. You can't have your Cake and eat it, too. You can't be a Mormon but not live the gospel standards.
John Dehlin [01:56:54] And I'd say most orthodox Mormons believe and feel that way.
Olivia Calvert [01:56:58] Oh, yeah. When I was telling my mom about Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, because I was telling her she should watch it, she was like, oh, well, they're not really Mormon. Like, what? Yes, they are.
Margi Dehlin [01:57:10] It's just.
Olivia Calvert [01:57:11] Yeah, yeah. It's the attitude. You have to live it this exact way or else you're not really Mormon. And at one point in the show, Heather said in a confessional, like, man, if. If I could live that Mormon 2.0 like Lisa, maybe I'd still be a member, or maybe I should join Lisa's church. And it was fascinating to me to see this attitude from Heather, who grew up very black and white, and then this attitude of Lisa, who did not grow up black and white. And I resonated a lot with Lisa because I was like, you know what? I think the way Lisa is doing it is much healthier. And then you watch Heather go through her faith crisis on screen, and you see her leave the church, and you see her kind of go the opposite way. And then you see Lisa, who's still in and her son just got back from a mission, but she doesn't live all the standards. And I don't know if she's had any consequences for that, but she seems to be very confident in how she lives Mormonism. And so it kind of opened my eyes to, okay, it's not just me. There's a lot of people who live inside the church this way, and they make it work. And then Secret Lives of Mormon Wives came out and kind of the same thing. Like, I'm seeing girls now my age who are not living all the gospel standards, but they still love the church, some of them. Like, I remember in season one, Jen Affleck saying that she loves being a member of church. She loves the church. But, yeah, she doesn't, like, wear her garments all the time. It's not that big of a deal. And so I'm like, okay, people are, like, getting it. They're seeing the church the way I'm seeing the church.
Margi Dehlin [01:58:55] Right.
Olivia Calvert [01:58:56] And I'm enjoying it. And I'm happy to see that it's on a public platform, people living the gospel this way. I know it made a lot of Mormons not happy to see that. A lot of people refusing to watch those shows because of that, because it's not an accurate depiction of our church, but I was kind of thinking maybe it should be Right.
John Dehlin [01:59:18] And the truth is there's a ton of appearing, appearingly orthodox Mormons that drink coffee or drink alcohol or don't attend the temple or don't wear their garments. Like, I'd say 2/3 of active Mormons in the United States don't pay a full tithing, don't have a temple recommend, you know, but are just in it culturally or as semi believers or just they're not into all the rules. That's probably the majority of active Mormons. And if you factor in the fact that 2/3 of everyone in the world, baptized Mormon is not even attending church anymore, it's super rare to be like super orthodox Mormon. You know what I mean? But that's not how orthodox Mormons think of it.
Margi Dehlin [02:00:05] Yeah. Because I think part of it is if you're not paying your tithing, you're not disrupting the conformity of the experience. You can't see that. But someone not wearing their garments or wearing clothes that are. That disrupts this conformity experience of like, we're all the same. We're all the same with like drinking or having. Those are physical things that you actually witness and see or getting tattoos. Yeah, that actually, that's, you know, it feels more integrated, like that person actually is living in a more. As opposed to like the person who isn't paying tithing or where you're still showing up maybe and presenting as one way, but actually in secret or on the. Do you know what I mean? It's like it's a very different experience. One you can see the other, you could show up and still look perfectly more. And it's undetectable.
Olivia Calvert [02:01:03] Yeah. I call those the visual commandments.
Margi Dehlin [02:01:05] That's right.
Olivia Calvert [02:01:06] Yeah. Those are what people prioritize, those visual commandments. Commandments. Because they can present a certain way. Exactly.
John Dehlin [02:01:12] And that's where this idea of pimos come in. Physically in, but mentally out. They attend church, but they don't really believe. Or buffet or cafeteria Mormons that just pick and choose what they believe or obey. Right. So before we jump into kind of your crisis point, I just have to ask, by 2024, had you been confronted with real Mormon history, the CES letter, Mormon stories podcast, any of the types of things that. That would either make you aware of problematic history, true factual history, or people doubting or leaving the church, any of that stuff. TikTok more ex Mormon TikTok.
Discovering Church History and the CES Letter
Olivia Calvert [02:01:53] This might surprise you, it might not. But on our mission we had. We had tablets, so we used Google Docs and we had a bunch of Google Docs that were like, deep doctrine. Lots of Hugh Nibley, lots of what's his name, the guy who wrote Mormon doctrine. Yes. Lots of McConkey. And then the CES letter was in there.
John Dehlin [02:02:16] Whoa.
Olivia Calvert [02:02:17] But it was the apologist response version. So my husband read the CES letter on his mission, but he read it in the question answer format. So I think I read maybe a section of it on my mission. But that went around our whole mission. Like, I. Every missionary had it, because at zone conferences, whatever, you would just pass along all these fun things to read, fun documents to read on your tablet. So I knew about the CES letter. I'd read a tiny bit of it because I think when I was, like, studying to teach a Bible basher, I would turn to stuff like that for answers. But besides that, I always knew Joseph Smith was a polygamist. We had lessons about that in young women's. We always knew he was a polygamist. We just never really knew why. The answers were always either, you know, we don't really know, or, well, there's theories, like, maybe it was to bring more righteous children. Maybe it was because widows and single women needed to be sealed to somebody. At the end of the day, it was just, we don't really know why. But, yeah, I always knew about polygamy. I knew about that might have been it. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:03:38] So you'd never seriously considered those types of doubts or questions or historical tidbits that have caused so many people to leave the church up till 2024?
Olivia Calvert [02:03:49] No, I mean, on the mission, when we would be confronted with those things, like, well, you know, that see your
John Dehlin [02:03:55] stone in the hat or book of Abraham.
Olivia Calvert [02:03:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the. The evangelicals would love to tell us those tidbits of information, and we would just be like, either it's a lie, it's missing context.
John Dehlin [02:04:09] Also, the first vision story having.
Olivia Calvert [02:04:11] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:04:12] Multiple versions.
Olivia Calvert [02:04:12] Oh, yeah. I learned about that on my mission. So you always ask people if they knew about the gospel topic essays. We knew all about those on the mission. We studied them on the mission.
John Dehlin [02:04:22] That's rare. Yeah, it seems rare. I don't know.
Olivia Calvert [02:04:25] Yeah. So 2016-2018 was my mission, and I would read all of those. I studied the gospel topic essays looking for an answer, looking for my Muslim answer, hoping that there was a gospel topic essay about other books of scripture and other religions, and there wasn't. But there was a gospel topic essay on the multiple accounts of the first vision. So I learned about that on my mission. Didn't bother me too much at the time because I was just like, oh, people's memories, they're no good. So he wrote his first experience 12 years later. Of course he's not going to remember all the details. I just kind of wrote off the
John Dehlin [02:05:04] polygamy gospel topics essay does admit that Joseph hid stuff from Emma, that he lied about polygamy, that he married 14 year olds and other men's wives. Did. Did you even absorb that at the time?
Olivia Calvert [02:05:20] Not really. I kind of absorbed the 14 year olds. That was kind of hard for me. But my answer to that was, oh, well, that was normal for the time. 14 year olds are always getting married at that time. So that's not that weird. Interesting kind of how I viewed that.
John Dehlin [02:05:36] Okay. All right, well, let's get to 2024. Last year.
Olivia Calvert [02:05:41] Oh, man.
John Dehlin [02:05:41] When things started to shift, it. It's only been a year.
Olivia Calvert [02:05:45] Yeah. So at this point, let's see, where am I at in 2024? I'm feeling like.
John Dehlin [02:05:52] Are you still in South Salt Lake?
Olivia Calvert [02:05:54] No. So at this point, we're in Sandy. We moved to Sandy in 2021 into
John Dehlin [02:05:59] a ward that felt better than South Salt Lake.
Olivia Calvert [02:06:02] About the same.
John Dehlin [02:06:03] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [02:06:04] Great. People. Just really small. My first calling was in the primary. We had one kid.
John Dehlin [02:06:11] Yeah. I just think of, like, Sandy and Draper as being like prime Mormon territory. You know what I mean? It used to be.
Margi Dehlin [02:06:18] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:06:18] I mean, we had a lot of kids on the roster. And then after primary, I went to young women's. We had a lot of young women on the roster. We had like 20 girls on our list and only two came.
John Dehlin [02:06:30] That's. That's last year. Like, and that's what you see is wards across Salt Lake closing, chapels across Salt Lake being shut down, stakes collapsing. You know, a stake would be closed down and multiple wards are consolidated into a. Like, you see that all around. But I haven't really been in touch with people talking about actually being in those wards. And you're just saying you're in these. You're in the Sandy ward or South Salt Lake ward, where there's virtually no children and virtually no youth, but lots of people on the rolls. That's like Vatican for the Catholic Church, you know, Salt Lake City. Right.
Margi Dehlin [02:07:12] Oh, it's.
Olivia Calvert [02:07:13] It was a shock for me. I grew up in a really big ward.
John Dehlin [02:07:17] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:07:18] My ward growing up had like 60 youth in Colorado.
John Dehlin [02:07:22] Yes. Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:07:24] We had. Our wards were so big in that area of Parker that we had to split and make a second stake.
John Dehlin [02:07:29] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:07:29] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:07:30] So then I come to Utah, where I expect it to be the same or bigger.
Margi Dehlin [02:07:34] Yes.
Olivia Calvert [02:07:35] Right, yeah. Well, I will say when I would visit my cousins here in Utah, they're in, like, South Jordan area. They have big wards, and I think they still do.
John Dehlin [02:07:44] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [02:07:44] So I don't know if it's just this area of Salt Lake county does not thrive. I think we've had two or three steak rearrangements since we've been in this ward. I know they consolidated. They combined two wards right before we moved in. And they've done a few other. Arranged rearrangements as well.
John Dehlin [02:08:06] Like. Like consolidations.
Margi Dehlin [02:08:08] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:08:08] Right. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:08:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:08:10] Showing shrinkage.
Olivia Calvert [02:08:11] Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my first calling, we were in the primary. We had one kid, and then I was moved to Young Women's. We had two girls, and it was tough.
Margi Dehlin [02:08:21] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:08:22] Two girls, two members between the ages of 12 and 18.
Olivia Calvert [02:08:26] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:08:26] Who are attending, and they were sisters. Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:08:29] So it's one. One family.
Margi Dehlin [02:08:31] That is something.
John Dehlin [02:08:33] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:08:34] I've been in branches way more than that. Way more.
John Dehlin [02:08:38] Yeah. Wow.
Olivia Calvert [02:08:40] Now, girls camp was tough because I. My first calling was girls camp director. I wasn't even in young Women's. I was just doing girls camp. And I was like, man, are we gonna get any of these girls to girls camp? But we want them to have fun. It's not gonna be fun if it's only two girls there.
Margi Dehlin [02:08:54] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:08:54] We ended up being able to get, like, five girls, but. Yeah, so. So at this point, another tough ward. It's hard for us to go. We don't really have any friends. We're struggling with the culture. We're struggling with not seeing Christ, really. And my testimony starting to struggle. I remember I gave a. I bore my testimony in church. It was sometime last year. Bore my testimony in church. And I was basically like, you know, I don't really know what I believe, but I know that Christ is good. I know that the Book of Mormon's a good book, and that's about it.
John Dehlin [02:09:36] That's not an orthodox Mormon testimony.
Olivia Calvert [02:09:39] I know. And I don't know why I felt like I needed to go up there and say that, but I did. And I had one ward member. He's actually. He is part of the reason we really made this shift towards Christianity, because he's a Sunday school teacher. He's a really good Sunday school teacher. And he always brings everything back to Christ. If people try to go on these tangents where they're talking about other things that don't matter, he will always bring it back to Jesus. We really admired that. He texted me after that testimony and was basically like, I don't know what you're going through, but just know, like, we feel it and we love you. And that was great to hear. So this is kind of where I'm at in 2024. So last spring, it was my grandpa's 90th birthday, and he wanted to have a big family reunion because it had been a long time since we had all gotten together. So I go to Denver. I went with just my daughter because my husband had just started a new job. He didn't come. And I'm seeing all these cousins I haven't seen in years. Now I'm kind of in the loop. I kind of know who's active and who's not, and. But a lot of the cousins didn't know that. So I have one cousin in particular who we're talking to. He's got a full sleeve of tattoos and really cool guy. He's been out of the church for a long time, and I suspect that he's kind of avoided family functions for a while because he felt like the black sheep. He felt like we would judge them. He didn't really want to be around us. When he discovered that he was no longer the only one that had left the church, and that not only was he not the only one, he was now in the majority. Seeing the relief, like, seeing that burden come off of him and seeing him open up immediately, it simultaneously made me really happy for him and really sad that he felt that way for so long, that he felt like he couldn't be himself, that he felt like he couldn't be around us. It made me really sad to see that. And then he. He was so excited that so many people had left the church. He's like, let's all go to a bar tonight. And so we all go to a bar. I was the only active one there. My brothers were there. Some other cousins were there. And everyone's kind of sharing their little micro Mormon story of why they left the church. And I'm kind of absorbing it all at once. And I felt really like, whoa, these are people that I love and respect. Do they all know something I don't know? That's kind of how I felt. And it. It really got to me. I was like, okay, the only one here who's still a member. Why? What do they all know that I don't? And there was this one thing my friend said that kept coming back to me. She said she had left the church a couple of years ago, and she said when I learned what I did. I didn't have a choice. I could not go back. So I was like, what the heck could be so bad that it would force people out of the church, essentially. So after this experience in Colorado, I went home and I told Hiram, I think I need to read the CES letter. And he's like, okay, do it. He's like, but you should read the version. I read, the question and answer version. He said, because if you just read all the questions, it's really overwhelming. It's meant to overwhelm you and make you kind of freak out. He's like, but if you read the answers, it's really not that bad. He's like, so you should totally read it. I read it. I'm good. Read it. So I took his advice. I found a version on Fair Mormon. They have like four or five different versions. I just picked a random one.
John Dehlin [02:13:39] Just rebuttals to the CES letter.
Olivia Calvert [02:13:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think I read about half of it in a couple of days, and it didn't really do anything for me. I felt like I've. I've since listened to your interviews with Jeremy Reynolds, but at the time, I felt like, this guy's just bitter. He's just angry. He just wants to rile people up. And then I felt about the responder. I don't know who it was, but I was like, he's condescending. He's self righteous. He's looking down on Jeremy Reynolds like,
John Dehlin [02:14:13] you know, if it was Jim Bennett. Does that sound right?
Margi Dehlin [02:14:15] No.
John Dehlin [02:14:16] Okay, that's fine.
Olivia Calvert [02:14:17] I don't know. Yeah, I don't remember the name of it, and I wouldn't be able to find it now because they had so many different versions. But I just didn't really like the attitude of either men. So I was like, I don't really care. I was looking for very unbiased, just facts. I didn't want emotion, and I felt a lot of emotion in that. And so I read about half of it, and then I was like, okay, I'm good. I read it. I can see why people leave the church from this. I can see why it really affects their testimonies, but it doesn't really affect mine. Like, I know history is messy, and we're viewing it from a modern lens and we're missing a lot of context.
John Dehlin [02:14:55] Sounds like your mission experience with the CES letter.
Margi Dehlin [02:14:58] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:14:59] So what changed?
Olivia Calvert [02:15:01] What changed was after about a month of feeling good, that thought came back to me. When I learned what I did, when I learned what I Did. I was like, okay, the CES letter wasn't that bad. What could it be?
Margi Dehlin [02:15:15] What else? What else could there possibly be?
John Dehlin [02:15:18] Yes.
Olivia Calvert [02:15:18] I already know that in my opinion, profits make mistakes. So what other mistakes could they have made? So I'm a big podcast listener, and I wanted to find a podcast that would talk about tough church issues in a positive way. So I just pulled up Spotify and I looked up Mormon, and the first thing to come up was Mormon Stories. And I was like, oh, this looks interesting. They have a lot of episodes. I'm scrolling through, scrolling through the episodes, and I found one. Did you. Do you remember doing a response video to Elder Holland's Musket Fire speech?
John Dehlin [02:15:54] Absolutely. Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:15:56] I couldn't find it recently, but that's the episode I came upon. And I was like, oh, I remember. This was a hot topic.
John Dehlin [02:16:03] We did it with Matt Eastman, who was the. The BYU graduate who was gay, who came out as gay during his graduation speech. That's what led to Holland's musket talk denouncing that student. So we had Matt Eastman on.
Olivia Calvert [02:16:19] Okay, so it's the Matt Eastman episode. I've actually never finished that episode because I started it. And after about a minute, I was like, oh, this isn't what I'm looking for. Yeah, these guys are. Yeah, they're not happy with the church right now, so maybe I shouldn't listen to them. So I turned it off and I looked at Mormon again. I might have looked up Joseph Smith, but Girls Camp came up.
John Dehlin [02:16:43] This is the podcast Haley Roll.
Margi Dehlin [02:16:45] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:16:46] And her cover is really girly and cute, and I was like, oh, I bet this is, like, super light hearted. I bet it's that it's more friendly.
John Dehlin [02:16:56] And she's friendly.
Olivia Calvert [02:16:57] Oh, yeah, I'm sure she is. I follow her. She seems very friendly.
John Dehlin [02:17:02] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:17:03] Anyway, I'm scrolling through her episodes and I see that she interviewed an influencer that I followed, and it talked about why she left the church. And I'd always been curious as to why that influencer left the church because she never talked about it ever.
John Dehlin [02:17:16] Do you remember the name of the influencer?
Olivia Calvert [02:17:17] J.C. smith.
John Dehlin [02:17:18] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [02:17:19] Do you know her? She lives in California. She has also has a podcast. And I listened to her podcast, and I never talked about the church ever. But I knew she had left the church because. Visual commandments. Right. I noticed she was never wearing her garments. She was drinking coffee and Matcha. Anyway, so I listened to that episode, and then after that episode, I was kind of hooked. I started listening to Girls Camp more and More. And then I allowed myself to start listening to the more serious episodes where it's not as light hearted. And at one point in an episode, she brought up Mormon stories and LDS discussions. And I was like, oh, Mormon stories, that sounds familiar. I think I came upon that podcast. So I feel like I was a little desensitized now to maybe more critical voices of the church. So I found LDS discussions. I started there and I was like, okay, they're trying to be unbiased. This is going to be an unbiased way for me to learn about church history. But I want to be balanced in my approach to studying this. So I also decided to read the Saints book, which I'd never read before. I've never been super interested in church history.
Margi Dehlin [02:18:35] Is the Saints Gerald Lund?
John Dehlin [02:18:37] No, it's. It's a. It's the. The Mormon Church came out with a version of its history in multiple volumes.
Margi Dehlin [02:18:44] Oh.
John Dehlin [02:18:45] Trying to be more truthful in its telling of the history, but in a faithful way.
Margi Dehlin [02:18:50] So who's the writer? Do you know?
John Dehlin [02:18:52] It's like the church history department.
Margi Dehlin [02:18:54] Oh, got it.
Olivia Calvert [02:18:55] Yeah. I don't know.
Margi Dehlin [02:18:56] So church approved versus a critical.
John Dehlin [02:18:58] Trying to be honest.
Margi Dehlin [02:18:59] You're trying to, yeah, but trying to be honest. Okay.
Olivia Calvert [02:19:02] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:19:02] And it's just in the past five or 10 years.
Olivia Calvert [02:19:04] Yeah. I believe it came out after my mission.
John Dehlin [02:19:07] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:19:07] So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna read Saints book. It's going to be my faithful approach, and then I'm going to listen to LDS discussions. It's going to be my a little less faithful approach, and we're going to compare. And it was wild. I would hear a story on LDS discussions and then I would read the exact same story in Saints that same day. It just happened to work out that way. What was crazy to me is the facts were the same. It was just the conclusion that was different. And so it occurred to me during this study that, okay, anti Mormon literature, it's just facts with a different conclusion. And it made it not scary anymore. It was no longer taboo in my mind because I was like, I've been making my own decisions since I was young. I'm not super impressionable when it comes to other people's opinions. So I can trust myself to read this stuff and come to my own conclusion. So I was listening to LDS discussions. I listened to the whole thing a few episodes twice.
John Dehlin [02:20:11] There's like 60 or 70 episodes.
Olivia Calvert [02:20:14] Oh, yeah, John. I listen to a lot of podcasts
John Dehlin [02:20:17] and most of them were three hours each, so that's That's a lot.
Olivia Calvert [02:20:19] It's a lot.
John Dehlin [02:20:20] You went down the rabbit hole.
Olivia Calvert [02:20:21] I went down the rabbit hole. And many people I'm sure can understand it is all consuming. You just feel this, like, obsession with it. Once you start learning, you're like, holy crap. How have I gone my whole life not knowing any of this? This is wild. So for a few months, I was just hyper fixated on all things church history. And it was. It was a very confusing, frustrating, emotional time. But it also felt really fulfilling. I felt like I was doing the most in my faith that I've ever done since my mission. Like, I'd been doing the most research, spending the most time on trying to learn and trying to decide, trying to be prayerful about it.
Processing Church History With Her Husband
John Dehlin [02:21:08] Were you sharing with your husband as you were learning stuff? Would you talk to your husband about it?
Olivia Calvert [02:21:13] So I mostly kept it to myself. I was really scared of freaking him out because I've heard a lot of horror stories of. I told my spouse this, and they wanted a divorce. Like, it's a very emotional thing to share with your spouse. And I wanted to do it the right way. So I would try to, like, give little nuggets here and there. Like, for example, I have a friend who lives in Ogden. She's a childhood friend. She's never been Mormon, but she's always been around Mormons. And we were always kind of like, why isn't she Mormon? She basically lives a Mormon lifestyle. And we had gone out to lunch one day. It was actually the day I got my tattoo. We can talk about that later. She came with me to get my tattoo. After we got it, we were at lunch, and she had told me that she went to the Layton Temple open house with some friends. And I was like, oh, how was it? She's like, it was good. And I was like, tell me the truth. Like, tell me your unfiltered opinion on how the temple was. And she was like, okay. She's like, the nicest person I've ever met. So I know she didn't want to say anything to hurt my feelings, So I had to make sure she knew I was okay with knowing exactly how she felt. And she's like, it was beautiful. It kind of felt like a hotel lobby, but it was really pretty. And she said that when they were, it was either the ceiling room or the celestial room. She wasn't sure when they walked into that room, the temple worker or the guide, whoever was showing them around, wanted them to just sit in silence and focus on how they felt. She's like, it was honestly just really uncomfortable. Like, I just didn't. I could tell she wanted us to feel a certain spirit, and I just didn't. She's like, it kind of felt void. And I thought that was really interesting because the reason we do open houses is that people can feel that spirit in there and want to go there one day. And so I come home and I'm talking to my husband about that, and I tell him what she said about the temple, and he just kind of shut down and was kind of like, well, that's where we got married. That was his response. You know, we got married in the temple. Right. So I was. I was very cautious after that on, like, what do I tell him? How much do I share? It was mostly me going through it by myself, but we would occasionally have really good conversations about the church, and we were pretty much on the same page. I just didn't want to be like, well, you know, I learned this, and, you know, I learned that and I learned this today, so I mostly kept it to myself.
John Dehlin [02:24:07] So I have a bit of a nerdy question to ask you. So, obviously, when. If you watch Enough LDS Discussions, which is a Mormon Stories series, but we also release it individually, there's this ongoing battle where we say, we're trying to be neutral, we're trying to be objective, we're trying to be evidence based. And at the same time, me and Nemo and. And Mike and Julia, you know, we'll laugh or we'll make fun, or by the end, we'll get frustrated and I'll go on rants and then reel myself back in. Like, you know, we, We. We know that we're not fully objective and not fully neutral, but we're trying to be right. Yeah, but we're not. And, you know, obviously, me and Nemo both had excommunicated. Mike didn't believe anymore, and that's why he did LDS discussions. But I can say it's evidence based, right? And it's very factual. But spin does matter. Context does matter. And then if you flip to the saints book or even the neutered contextualized version of the CES letter, they're doing the same thing, like you said, where they're spinning it so that it's like, okay, yes, first vision accounts, but these are not the droids you're looking for. Like, there's, There's. It's constantly couched in. This is not a problem. The polygamy is not a problem. The peep stone in a hat isn't a problem. So, like, how did you tease out for yourself which contextualization, which, which interpretation, which bias felt more accurate or felt more compelling, knowing that there, there, there still were, were heavy biases in the different perspectives? How did you, how did you piece through that and come to your own decision about interpretation? Because you could say, well, we were just dark and evil and convincing and our interpretations deceived you and led you away. Someone could say that. And I'm just curious, is that what happened? Did we just deceive you and lead you away when. If you had been focusing on, on more faithful contextualizations, you would still be an orthodox believer today?
Olivia Calvert [02:26:29] Something that Mike would often say in the podcast was, pretend you're hearing this stuff about a different church leader.
John Dehlin [02:26:39] How would you feel like some other non Mormon church?
Olivia Calvert [02:26:42] Like, yeah, like, like imagine you're learning this about Scientology. Scientology? Yes. Like, how would you feel about that? Well, the obvious answer is, oh, well, that would just confirm my belief that Scientology isn't real.
John Dehlin [02:26:54] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:26:54] And so that perspective really did make me lean towards your spin on it because I do recognize that this was the worldview I was raised in. I was raised to believe Book of Mormon is the truest book on earth. It was translated directly by God. Joseph Smith saw God. Anyways, you're. You're taught to believe all of those things, but when you are looking at it from the outside in, you see it a lot differently. My cr. My same Christian friend, when I was confiding, I confided in her a lot of the stuff that I learned because I knew she was just a neutral, unbiased person to confide in. And one thing she told me was, I'm very wary of any church that tries to control the information you consume. She's like, that's a red flag for me. And so that really stuck with me. While I'm listening to LDS discussions, you guys are kind of saying the same things. Like, and then in the Saints book, it was just more. It was much more like, well, we don't really know God's ways. God's ways are not our ways. We don't know why this happened. We don't know why Joseph Smith did. Decided to do this this way, but we just have faith. And that just was a lot harder for me to get on board with than the simple, the simple answer of, well, he's human and he makes mistakes and he probably wasn't led by God in everything that he did. Like, that just seemed like the much more simple answer. And I've always kind of agreed with. The simple answer is usually the right one.
John Dehlin [02:28:38] Yeah. That's called Occam's Razor.
Margi Dehlin [02:28:40] Right.
John Dehlin [02:28:41] The simplest answer is likely the most accurate one. And Mike would always talk about special pleading. He would always say, like you said, if, you know, if you want to make special excuses for the Mormon church because you want to believe, that's one thing. But if you're not going to do special pleading, then if you just look at these facts and apply it to any other non Mormon leader church, you're going to find them problematic.
Olivia Calvert [02:29:08] Yeah, well, yeah. I had watched a lot of documentaries about those southern Utah FLDS offshoots. Flds? Yeah. And different cults. And it's so easy for me on the outside to be like, oh, yeah, that guy's not a prophet, but they believe so strongly that he is.
John Dehlin [02:29:23] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:29:24] So I was able to see my church from that point of view.
John Dehlin [02:29:29] We even did that episode on, like, spiritual experiences from other faiths and how testimony, FLDS testimonies and Islam, Jewish testimonies, evangelical. They all sound so similar. And everybody says they feel and they know it's true because of their feelings. And it's the stuff you were thinking about in high school and even on your mission.
Margi Dehlin [02:29:52] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:29:52] How can we deny other people's experience when there's billions of people having similar experiences in their religion?
John Dehlin [02:29:58] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:29:58] It's tricky.
Historical Issues That Troubled Her Most
John Dehlin [02:30:00] Okay, so not to dig into this, but just off the top of your head, if you could think of, like, the three biggest historical factoids that ended up, like, really opening your eyes. Are there two or three? And you don't even have to get into them, but just, like, were there two or three that really stuck in your mind as being, like, shelf breakers?
Olivia Calvert [02:30:19] Yeah. So the first one that really made me feel the. The first time I really felt angry was when I learned about Zina Huntington, her story. I remember where I was. I remember the time of day. It was when I heard her story, when I first heard her name. I won't get into why, but it has to do with my temple experience. When I first heard her name, my jaw, my heart, and my stomach just all fell to the floor. I was, like, shocked.
John Dehlin [02:30:54] What was it about her story that was problematic for you? Like, the big.
Olivia Calvert [02:30:58] Yeah. So I don't like any of her story, but essentially it really bothered me that she was already married, that she, I would hope, had found the love of her life. Basically, Joseph Smith came to her. She was living at his house. She was helping out around the house, and he came to her one day and Told her that she was to be one of his wives, and she rejected him. She said, I'm already dating somebody. We're gonna get married. And he backed off. And then when it came time for her and her husband to get married, they asked him to marry them. And at first he agreed, and then he. Later, he never showed up to the wedding. And I guess when they confronted him about it, he was like, I couldn't give my wife away to somebody else. Something along those lines. Her? Yeah. You have a wife, dude. You're married to Emma.
John Dehlin [02:31:57] Like, and not just Emma, actually.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:00] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:32:00] Apparently you're married to a lot of people right now. You have wives. Why do you need this one specifically? And then it really bothered me that a little while later, she's pregnant with her first child, and he approaches her again and says, no, you have to marry me. She and her husband were never sealed, but her husband had to watch and be a witness to her getting sealed to Joseph Smith. And that was really hard for me to read. So after I'd learned about. On LDS discussions, I, like, ran home and I pulled up her journal and I read it in her own words to, like, confirm that that was all true. And it just made me sick. Like, I just hated. Hated that story. It's one thing to marry widows, single women who can't get married, but to marry women who already have a husband, that just makes no sense at all. And then they're sending him on missions back to back, adding all this space between her and her husband, and then she has to marry Brigham Young after Joseph Smith dies and go out with Brigham to Utah. She died with a testimony. I mean, she wrote in her journal that she believed in polygamy and she believed in the church. And so, you know, can't deny what. What she says, but. But her story really impacted me a lot because that's what I didn't know about polygamy. I didn't know he was marrying other men's wives.
John Dehlin [02:33:28] Yeah. Yeah. And Warren Jeff's wives are all very. Believing in Warren Jeff's.
Olivia Calvert [02:33:35] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:33:36] You know, divine calling. Okay. Any other couple? Big, big.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:39] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:33:41] It was funny when I was reading the Saints book, I don't remember which city it was, but when Joseph Smith brought the Saints to either Kirkland or Nauvoo, everyone was getting sick from the water. Nauvoo. Yeah, everyone's getting sick. And my husband comes home as I'm reading about this, and he goes, so how's your book? Like, how's the reading going? And I was like, well, you know what? It's not really improving my testimony because it seems like everything Joseph Smith touches turns to crap. I just read about how everyone's getting sick and dying from the water, but this was apparently where they needed to be. And then with the bank.
John Dehlin [02:34:15] That was Kirtland.
Olivia Calvert [02:34:16] That was in Kirtland.
Margi Dehlin [02:34:17] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:34:17] It just seemed like all these ideas he had were not working out very well for the Saints, and I really didn't like that they were being blamed for their lack of faith.
John Dehlin [02:34:27] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:34:28] So that really bothered me. That was a big one. That was just kind of like a general one. And then the multiple accounts of the first vision started bothering me more as I'm learning all these things, because I'm like, why did it take him 12 years? The timing is weird. Is it. Is it right? If I remember correctly, there was no. No. There's, like, no one was talking about the first vision. There's no record of the first vision at all. From anybody. From anybody's journals. Joseph Smith was not talking about it.
John Dehlin [02:34:59] Correct.
Margi Dehlin [02:35:00] At all.
John Dehlin [02:35:00] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:35:01] Until a convenient time.
John Dehlin [02:35:03] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:35:04] So the timing of the first vision started bothering me more. Those are probably the main ones. And then I was. So I had this theory at one point. I still might believe it. I'm not really sure that maybe Joseph Smith was called to write the Book of Mormon and only the Book of Mormon. Like, maybe that's all he was supposed to do, was bring us the Book of Mormon and that's it.
John Dehlin [02:35:27] He may have even received a revelation to that effect.
Olivia Calvert [02:35:30] That's. Yeah, that. When I learned that, it's like DNC4, DNC5. I can't remember. The original revelation said, Joseph Smith will be given the gift to translate and will pretend no other gift.
John Dehlin [02:35:43] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:35:44] Period.
Margi Dehlin [02:35:44] Full stop.
John Dehlin [02:35:45] That's right. And then the two. He took that out later.
Olivia Calvert [02:35:47] Yeah. And then he changed it. He added a line at the end that was like, until his work is finished. And so made it a lot more
John Dehlin [02:35:55] vague in future versions of the DNC or whatever.
Olivia Calvert [02:35:58] Yes. Yeah. He. He later changed that revelation. That was something I shared with my husband because I knew he would find that fascinating. Fascinating. And he did. He was like, no way.
Margi Dehlin [02:36:08] Are you serious?
Olivia Calvert [02:36:10] So that was shocking. And it kind of validated my potential theory. That was a big one as well.
John Dehlin [02:36:16] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [02:36:17] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:36:18] So when. So at this point in your story, and we've got, you know, 2,000 stories now, plus it usually is, the person ends up losing their faith, wanting to leave the church, having to tell their spouse they're going to leave, and Then either breaks up their marriage and they leave or they convince their spouse and they both leave. But this is where your story is different than most because you still attend church.
Margi Dehlin [02:36:44] Yeah, it's.
John Dehlin [02:36:45] It's 2025 and you still attend. So where did your testimony land after going down the rabbit hole? And, you know, how did you ever end up. Do you want to talk about whether or not your husband ever landed on a similar page or the same page? You don't have to talk about that if you don't want. But then also, what led to your slash, your, your husband's decision to continue attending versus to do what so many other people do, which is just a bail.
Olivia Calvert [02:37:16] Yeah. I would say it changed day by day. So one day I'm like, this isn't true at all. I don't know if I can go anymore. And then another day I'm like, but I went to church this week. I really enjoyed being there. I put my daughter in nursery. She loved it. I want her to have those social experiences. And I enjoyed doing my calling today. So like, I'm constantly being pulled back and forth. Meanwhile, Hiram and I are having a lot more conversations about this. He's expressing that maybe he'd be open one day to looking at other churches. Like when we're talking about how we want to be serious Christians. Well, maybe we would try going to other churches one day. And we are just being more open to the idea that maybe we won't always be super active or maybe we won't be active at all. Maybe we'll start going to another church. After we watched the Pope documentary, he made a joke like, should we be Catholic? And so we're having a lot more conversations. We're much more open.
John Dehlin [02:38:21] Let me ask you one question about that because that might be Nelson president, other than like building a gazillion temples, I would say if Russell Nelson has one legacy other than temple building, he makes Jesus bigger in the logo. He, you know, takes, he condemns the use of the term Mormon or even Latter Day Saint. And he tries to make us more mainstream Christian, use the term Jesus Christ, more identify as the church of Jesus Christ. So, and even you could see in General Conference less and less emphasis on Joseph Smith in, you know, since Nelson's become prophet and more and more emphasis on Christ. So why was any of that landing on you and your husband as you continue to have more of a Christ centered emphasis? And why wasn't Nelson and or the church getting credit for Nelson's increasing emphasis on Christ and the decrease in emphasis on Joseph Smith.
Olivia Calvert [02:39:24] No, I think that did play a big role. I think seeing the prophet and apostles start to focus more on Christ was great for us to see. We were happy to see those changes. It was frustrating that it seemed like the culture was still taking a long time to kind of catch up. Like we're still having lessons on early church history times and I'm kind of like, why, like why are we still talking about early church history? Why are we not talking about how we can be better Christians? But it, they do deserve some credit in how we feel because we're like, no, the church is becoming more Christian. The church is figuring it out. The church maybe went through its own little apostasy time where they were so obsessed with rules and now they're really realizing that they were pretty. I call it Pharisitical, like the Pharisees being a lot like the Pharisees where they just focus so much on the things you can and cannot do. And now the church itself is kind of repenting and remembering Christ that Christ is actually why we're here. So that did play a role and I think they do deserve some credit.
Margi Dehlin [02:40:29] I just want to ask a clarifying question around that. So what I'm hearing from you and I just want to is kind of on a high level. Like twice a year you have general conference and you're hearing kind of from the, from you know, President Nelson or right then, are you saying that it didn't actually make the correlation lesson schedule of your experience in on Sundays hearing about kind of this Christ centered. It's one thing to change the name, put a bit a picture on it, even from the prophet hearing a couple times a year that you know, maybe we want to focus more on Christ. But if weekly when you're going to lessons or to write your experience of the gospel lived is still not particularly Christ centered. Is that what I'm hearing from you? Kind of like, yep, we made the upper level change, but the experience of actually being a member of the church, we're still not experiencing sort of a Christ centered disciple. I don't know. Do you know what I mean? Yes.
Olivia Calvert [02:41:40] And I think my experience is a little different from maybe people who are down in like Utah county where there's a lot of younger folks, I imagine. I have a friend who's in a huge ward. They're all really young families. Families. I would imagine they have grasped, grasped more of this Christ centered church. But our ward specifically, we have a lot of older people who've gotten really used to a 80s, 90s, Mormonism and are kind of latching onto that. And I think for wards like ours where the demographic is a little older, it's going to take longer to trickle down.
Margi Dehlin [02:42:22] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [02:42:23] Like we've, we've had a lot of talks on stuff that I just don't think matter and I'm like, great. Another, another talk on missionary work, another talk on tithing, another talk on.
Margi Dehlin [02:42:33] Yeah, I guess my question in this idea of correlation and manuals, so much of the, the experience within the church is correlated, meaning everyone kind of uses these, these manuals and young women's and in. So here's my question for either of you. Just because I don't happen to know, was this change around trying to make it more Christ centered from the top? Did it hit the manuals? I guess is what I'm saying, Did they rewrite the manuals and did the correlation within the church reflect those changes? Yes.
Olivia Calvert [02:43:13] So they did change the manuals. The manuals are much more Christ centered. I would just say conversations.
Margi Dehlin [02:43:21] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [02:43:21] And the way people give talks haven't changed as much.
Margi Dehlin [02:43:26] Got it.
Olivia Calvert [02:43:27] But the curriculum has changed. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:43:30] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [02:43:30] The come follow me is much more Christ centered for sure.
Margi Dehlin [02:43:33] Okay, thank you. Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:43:37] Okay.
Landing on Her Own Version of Faith
John Dehlin [02:43:38] So you and your husband did acknowledge the church had become more Christ centered, but where did you end up landing with like one true church, you know? And what kept you from considering going to K2 or South Mountain, you know, or any of the other non denominational Christian churches here in the Salt Lake Valley? You said you enjoyed your kid in nursery and you enjoyed the fellowship of the ward. I'm sure it occurred to you that, you know, you could also maybe really enjoy some of these evangelical or non denominator Christian, non denominational Christian churches.
Olivia Calvert [02:44:23] Oh, totally.
Margi Dehlin [02:44:24] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:44:25] That's actually where we are currently right now. We haven't really landed anywhere. I think I am much more open to going to other churches. I think it would be fun to, for a few Sundays in a row, go try a few other churches. I'm in a place where I don't believe the church is the only church. I think that there are a lot of ways to find God in your life, which I think is important.
Margi Dehlin [02:44:59] Important.
Olivia Calvert [02:44:59] I think faith is really important. I also think it's inescapable. I don't think humanity cannot have faith in religion. We've just seen thousands of years of battling about which religion is true. I just don't think we can get rid of it. And so for me, I'm like, if I'm gonna choose a Religion. I wanna choose one that is good for me and my family, that brings us fulfillment and purpose and joy. And right now, the church might not really be doing that for me. And so I'm open to trying other churches.
Margi Dehlin [02:45:42] Right.
Olivia Calvert [02:45:43] But it was a great way to grow up. I don't regret how I was raised at all. I am happy my parents raised me in the church. So as of right now, I could kind of go either way. I'm kind of putting it in the hands of my husband now. He knows where I'm at. He knows that that's kind of what I believe I'm putting in his. In his hands, because he's the one who has that burden of being the priesthood leader. And I know he still feels that. He feels that duty to keep his family in the church. And I know that if I were to. I suspect if I were to kind of give him an ultimatum and say, I need to leave and either you can come with me or not, but I'm leaving. I think he would go with me, but that would eat him alive. I think it'd be really, really hard for him to feel like he had to choose between church and his wife. So I kind of want him to make that decision right now. I'm not super passionate either way.
John Dehlin [02:46:49] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [02:46:50] I've never reached that point where, like, oh, I can't go back because I do believe that it is a good place to be. You talk all the time about how it's so hard to find a community in the secular world and that the church just does it so well, and they really do. I know people who've moved to other states and the only reason they stay in the church is because the community is so good. And so it has a lot of benefits that I would be okay staying for. It would be tricky when our kids grow up and we have to teach them things that maybe we don't agree with in the church and it might be confusing for them. And that's a hurdle we're going to have to face. But right now we're just, like, kind of in limbo. We're still going once a month, kind of when we feel like it. We believe it's good. We believe in Jesus and they're teaching about Jesus. And as long as we can find Christ in our church, then I think it doesn't really matter where you are, as long as it's making you be better, make better decisions, help people become more Christ.
John Dehlin [02:48:05] Like, did you. It sounded like you weren't loving your ward in Sandy. Did Your ward get better? Did it get more? Did they consolidate, like.
Olivia Calvert [02:48:14] Oh, yeah. No. It's not serving me right now. It's not.
Margi Dehlin [02:48:17] It's.
Olivia Calvert [02:48:18] It's tricky for me right now in our ward, and my husband has said a few times, like, once we find a ward that we really, really love, it'll be so much easier.
John Dehlin [02:48:27] Yeah. Like, I could imagine wards with, like, 20 young married couples with kids your age. That would be a very different experience than a ward with, like, two primary kids and.
Olivia Calvert [02:48:36] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:48:36] And three young men, young women. You know what I mean?
Olivia Calvert [02:48:38] Oh, yeah. I have friends who are an American fork, and they've got book clubs, they've got Bunko. They, like, all their close friends are in their ward.
John Dehlin [02:48:46] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:48:46] And so I know it's possible, and I think my husband's kind of holding out for that. Like, we're gonna find the ward that really suits our needs, that we're gonna really want to go to. Ball's kind of in his court.
John Dehlin [02:48:58] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [02:48:59] On that.
Margi Dehlin [02:49:00] And it does sound like you're taking into account your experience at your current ward by going once a month. I mean, you're not expecting, you know, that experience every. Making yourself have that experience every week, which might actually drive you out faster. It might actually. I just like the adjustment that you've made for yourself, given your experience, your current experience. And then to clarify also. So you haven't at this point explored, like, other Christian churches in the area, is that right?
Olivia Calvert [02:49:39] Correct. Yeah, we haven't explored really, anywhere. And. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:49:45] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [02:49:45] You're dead on.
Margi Dehlin [02:49:46] Okay.
John Dehlin [02:49:47] Okay. So I actually have a million questions that I ask people that stay in the church as non believers. I won't ask a million, but I'll ask a few. Is that okay? Okay. So what are. If to whatever sense you're comfortable, what are the commandments that you feel okay just no longer obeying? If you want to share, I mean, you brought coffee.
Which Commandments She No Longer Follows
Olivia Calvert [02:50:11] I mean, obviously, word of wisdom is one of them. I'm okay. I am absolutely confident not drinking coffee anymore. People have asked me, like, well, what are you going to say when the bishop asks if you're living the word of wisdom? I'm going to say, well, at the promise. There's a promise at the end of the word of wisdom that says if you. If you do these things, you will run and not be weary and will
John Dehlin [02:50:34] walk and not faint.
Olivia Calvert [02:50:35] Walk and not faint. You'll have. Yeah, all those promises. I'm like, well, I'm the healthiest I've ever been, so I think I'm Living the commandment. If I'm receiving these blessings so I can confidently tell a bishop, I am living the word of wisdom.
John Dehlin [02:50:47] Plus, your coffee looks like it's a nice coffee. It's not a hot drink.
Olivia Calvert [02:50:50] It's not a hot drink? No, it's not a hot drink, John. It's very cold, actually, which the word
John Dehlin [02:50:56] of wisdom actually doesn't. It's not prevent coffee. It says hot drinks for never Mormons.
Olivia Calvert [02:51:02] Yeah. And that's our interpretation is, oh, hot drinks at the time were coffee and tea, so that must be what God meant. But then, yeah, it makes it tricky. What about iced coffee? I remember a church leader saying, if it ends in chino, avoid it. So, yeah, word of wisdom. I'm not super worried about.
John Dehlin [02:51:23] Do you. Are you comfortable talking about alcohol now or not? You don't have to.
Olivia Calvert [02:51:27] I could see myself one day being like a glass of wine at night kind of girl. I don't. Now that I'm a parent, I don't really. And I went through my party phase in college. I don't really see a need to, like, start going to bars and clubs and stuff at all. I could see myself one day casually drinking here and there a little bit. I guess.
John Dehlin [02:51:49] You're pregnant right now.
Olivia Calvert [02:51:50] Yeah. No, no, Definitely not right now. But Hiram, he's much more resistant to alcohol, which makes sense. I mean, there's a lot of reasons to not drink.
John Dehlin [02:51:59] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:52:00] So I don't have a major desire to do that.
John Dehlin [02:52:06] Well, go ahead.
Olivia Calvert [02:52:07] Garment wearing.
John Dehlin [02:52:08] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:52:08] Is one that I'm not super concerned with right now. The garments.
John Dehlin [02:52:12] Meaning you don't need to wear them or you're okay wearing them?
Olivia Calvert [02:52:14] I'm okay not wearing them.
John Dehlin [02:52:15] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [02:52:16] The garments are supposed to be a reminder of Christ. That's what they tell us. Supposed to be a reminder of Christ. Reminder of your covenants. All they reminded me was how uncomfortable I was. And I feel like a big question for why you keep commandments should be why? Why do I keep this commandment? Am I wearing garments because they make me better? Because they remind me of Jesus? Or am I wearing them because I was told I have to wear them? And that's kind of where I was at. I was wearing them because I was told I had to, not because I wanted to, not because I felt the spirit when I wore them, not because I felt better when I wore them, but because I had to. And so when I kind of took a step back and let go of that,
Margi Dehlin [02:53:01] I've.
Olivia Calvert [02:53:02] I've been more okay with the idea that maybe I will start wearing them again one day. Like, I. I kind of let go of that bitterness towards garments. I don't know if that makes sense, but taking a step back helped me think, like, okay, I'm not wearing them right now, but maybe one day I'll want to again. Maybe one day they will represent Christ for me, but right now, they don't.
John Dehlin [02:53:24] Don't.
Olivia Calvert [02:53:24] So I'm okay with that.
John Dehlin [02:53:26] What about the recent changes they made? Is that exciting to you? Interesting.
Olivia Calvert [02:53:31] Funny.
John Dehlin [02:53:31] It's funny.
Olivia Calvert [02:53:32] It's funny to me.
John Dehlin [02:53:33] Why isn't it awesome and exciting?
Olivia Calvert [02:53:36] It's awesome and exciting for girls who are wearing garments right now. Like, that's great for them. They're like, heck, yeah, I can wear tank tops. I would have loved to have this garment top when I got married because I had to adjust my wedding dress so much, and if I had this tank top garment, I might not have had to. I think it's par for the course. The church does a lot of. They make a lot of changes based on social pressure, and I think they knew they had to make garments more wearable, and so that's why they made the change. I know a lot of ex Mormons have a lot of mixed feelings about it. They might be really bitter about it. I totally get that. For me, I'm like, it doesn't really make me want to wear them.
John Dehlin [02:54:20] Yeah. What about tithing? Are you comfortable sharing your thoughts about tithing? I mean, let me ask it this way. Especially when there was such an epidemic of LGBT suicides, and there's a lot of feelings about, you know, patriarchy and sexism in the church and modesty culture and rape culture that there. There have been a lot of people over the years that have felt like to give money to the church when it does harm to women, when it teaches, you know, racism in the Book of Mormon, when it, you know, is homophobic or transphobic, that you're basically financing or subsidizing the harm of people and then. Or complicit in the harm the church does. And then there's also the building of the consumer shopping mall and finding out that the church has 200 billion-plus in, you know, in stocks and bonds, Tesla and whatever. Why would I want to give to an organization, Especially if you are really into Jesus and Christ, when you see the church isn't really giving its majority of its money to the poor, you're just, like, building a stock portfolio at the expense of LGBT people and women and. And people of color. So that's a really loaded Question now.
Olivia Calvert [02:55:43] Yeah, a bit of a. I get the sentiment, though.
John Dehlin [02:55:46] So what about tithing?
Olivia Calvert [02:55:47] Yeah, so what about tithing? I'm comfortable right now not really paying tithing. I feel like I kind of paid my dues. I got my subsidized tuition from my tithing money. I got my subsidized. You know what they need to pay for missions? They need to just flat out pay permissions. We should not have to pay permission at all. But I got my subsidized mission experience.
John Dehlin [02:56:08] I mean, I guess you did give the church a year and a half of your life.
Olivia Calvert [02:56:11] And I did give the church a year and a half of my life. What I believe about tithing is I think it is good to practice sacrifice. I think you do grow a lot from parting with something that you love.
Margi Dehlin [02:56:29] And.
Olivia Calvert [02:56:29] And, you know, I think that does help us. Us grow as humans. But I think there's a lot of ways you can do that. And that line from the Pope Francis documentary where he said, a church that relies on riches, Christ is not there. That really did hit us because we're like, the church has so much money and so much money that they're just holding on to for the end of times. Right. Like, that's one reason we're given as to why the church has so much money that were just kind of like, where's the faith in God? Where's the faith in Christ? Where's the faith that will be okay? Why aren't we giving away more of our money to help people in the world? And why are we just kind of holding on to it? That's kind of a feeling I have. So I'm okay not paying tithing right now, and I need to find a different way to sacrifice.
Margi Dehlin [02:57:24] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:57:25] So, yeah, that's kind of how I feel about tithing right now.
John Dehlin [02:57:30] Yeah. And then what immediately comes with tithing is temple recommend. Like, the temple recommend is kind of like the marker of Mormon legitimacy. And if you don't have a temple recommend, then you can't attend your sister's wedding or your cousins or your nieces or your nephew's wedding, or go through the endowment ceremony with family or ward temple night or whatever. How do you feel? Or you lie and you. Or you nuance the question so that you can keep your temple recommend, and then you either feel guilt for lying or you nuance it in some way to where you're really, you know, you're answering the questions in ways where, you know, if the bishop or the stake president knew what you really felt or Were doing, like, drinking coffee. They wouldn't let you have it, but you just don't tell them you're drinking coffee. So you're kind of hiding. So anyway, there's that conflict of what to do with the temple recommend.
Olivia Calvert [02:58:30] Right. So I feel like I'm finally in a place where I can be completely honest with my bishop about what I believe, what I'm doing and kind of let him decide what he thinks. But also, if I don't have a temp recommend, I don't really care right now. It's not like we're going. I mean, I think I can maybe count on one hand how many times we've been to the temple in the past, what, in the past six years, like since we've been married. For a non, like, family member experience.
Margi Dehlin [02:59:00] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [02:59:01] So the temple. The temple's great. I know a lot of people really, really love the temple. They go there for peace. They go there to find answers, and they get them. For me, the temple's great and I do feel peace there. It's very quiet and nice, but I don't feel a tie to the temple like a lot of people do. I'm okay getting those same feelings from going. I would laugh at people like this on the mission who would say, I like going to the mountains to find God, but now I'm one of them. Like, I can feel God in the mountains. Among his creations were big birders. Like, I. Hey, hello.
John Dehlin [02:59:44] Margi's a big bird.
Margi Dehlin [02:59:45] Hey.
Olivia Calvert [02:59:45] Oh, we'll have to talk about our lifeless after this.
John Dehlin [02:59:48] About your what?
Olivia Calvert [02:59:49] Our lifeless.
John Dehlin [02:59:51] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [02:59:51] That's where you list.
John Dehlin [02:59:52] Is that what birds you've seen?
Olivia Calvert [02:59:53] Yes, the birds you've seen in your life. Yeah. They become lifers when you've seen them. It's real life. Pokemon.
John Dehlin [02:59:59] Wow. Do you know about this, Mar?
Margi Dehlin [03:00:01] Yeah. People travel places actually with an intention to add to their lifestyle.
Olivia Calvert [03:00:07] Oh, yeah. We just went on a baby moon to Florida and we went to the Everglades to try to see a spoon. Bill didn't see one, unfortunately. I mean, not the primary reason we went.
Margi Dehlin [03:00:18] Yes.
Olivia Calvert [03:00:18] But anyway, I see God.
John Dehlin [03:00:21] Do you have the Merlin app on your phone?
Olivia Calvert [03:00:23] Yep. Merlin ID eBird. Those are the two main apps you gotta have.
John Dehlin [03:00:27] All right. Sorry I interrupted. So you're.
Margi Dehlin [03:00:29] That's okay.
John Dehlin [03:00:29] It's fun.
Olivia Calvert [03:00:30] Anyway, what I was saying is I don't feel like I need the temple right now in my life to feel God. And I don't know if I believe that temple work is really necessary. Like, I don't know if I really believe in the covenant path. I don't think God's mad about it. I think God's like, sure, if you want to make promises to me, great. If that's going to help you come closer to me, great. I don't know if I necessarily believe that God is commanding us to go to the temple and do this work, especially for other people. My, my dad and I had a funny conversation one time. He was like, I'm just excited for the millennium. It's just going to be a bunch of family reunions and temple work. And I'm like, dad, a thousand years of temple work. Sounds horrible. Do not want to do that. So, long story short, I'm not super concerned about being temple worthy right now. And I think it's okay to not to go through phases where you don't have a temple recommend. It's not black and white. I think your faith is a lifelong process and just because you don't have a temple recommend for a while doesn't mean you're damned. It doesn't. It's not all doom and gloom. Maybe one day you'll want one again. I don't know.
Being Casual With Covenants and Finding Community
John Dehlin [03:01:45] Well, I think in your outline or in our emails or whatever, you referenced this, this idea that's been passed around as of late. I mean, the covenant path is one way it's described. You're either living up to your covenants that you make in the temple, which is tithing, which is law of chastity, which is law of consecration, and all the others, obedience, sacrifice, or you're not, you're not on the covenant path. You're on the covenant path or you're not on the covenant path. It kind of sounds like you're basically telling the world, I'm not on the covenant path. And I'm okay with that. I'm not wrong, right? Okay, yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:02:23] No, you're not wrong.
John Dehlin [03:02:24] Okay. And then there's this talk by Becky Craven where she talks about, you know, being casual. And that's kind of how I jokingly titled this episode is kind of being casual with your covenants instead of, you know, careful in Becky Craven's words, with your covenants, you're kind of a lax disciple or a buffet Mormon or a cafeteria Mormon, which I think you could even quote the scripture in, in Revelations where Jesus or God says, I would that you rather be hot or cold, but if you are lukewarm, I shall spew thee out of my mouth. Like, there's a lot of orthodox Mormons that say it's. It's wicked to be casual in your covenants, and yet here you are telling the world, I'm casual in my covenants. You know what I mean?
Margi Dehlin [03:03:12] It's not just that I. I think it's also I'm casual in my covenants and it's healthier for me.
John Dehlin [03:03:20] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:03:21] Like, my lived life is enriched for it.
Olivia Calvert [03:03:25] I mean, how many people do you see who were so careful in their covenants? And it totally leads them to just completely leave religion, which I don't think is a bad thing at all. I think it's great for a lot of people that they should do that. But I just don't believe in extremes, and I don't think being extremely one way is ever good. And I think it's healthy and important to really focus on what do I believe. I mean, I'm an individual. God gave me my own brain, my own consciousness. He gave me my own thoughts, my own opinions, and I think God wants me to use that. The last two conferences, I've paid very, very close attention, and I do remember multiple talks about that. I think Elder Bednar gave one, maybe. I think it's out of fear. I think church leadership is very afraid of people becoming more casual disciples. I think they're afraid of what it will do to the church. And what it shows me is that they're not having faith in us making our own decisions. I think God showed the most faith in us by just plopping us on here on this earth and being like, go make your own decisions. And I don't think that the church leadership shows that same trust in us. So that's. Does that answer the question? Did I just go on, like a rant that.
John Dehlin [03:05:16] So for you, you don't want to be extreme, so a middle road makes sense. But there are a lot of, you know, orthodox Mormons, even your former self, that would say, well, that's not Mormon. Like that Lisa Barlow, like you said, Lisa, like your mom with Lisa Barlow. That's not Mormon. Right. And if you're not wearing your garments, you're not going to the temple, you're not obeying the word of wisdom. In some ways, you only go to church when you feel like it. All of a sudden it's starting to just not feel very Mormon. You know what I mean? Yeah, to some people. Right. However, like, I was on TikTok the other day, and there's this woman who's like, I'm the bishop's wife and we go out to eat on Sundays, and I don't always wear my Garments and I wear a bikini. And she was like, as the bishop's wife, saying, hey, you can be whatever type of Mormon you want. I mean, I think the church probably is realizing that if it's too strict and too rigid, they're going to just drive people out. So I think the church is even starting to want Mormons to feel like they can pick and choose. Although I don't think church leaders maybe not tithing well. Yeah, I don't think church leaders are ever going to tell Mormons, please pick and choose. Please be casual in your covenants.
Margi Dehlin [03:06:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:06:40] But it seems like they're becoming more and more tolerant of that now.
Olivia Calvert [03:06:44] Well, yeah, you see that in the way. In the way temple recommend questions have been changed. Like, they changed the word of wisdom question somewhat recently. That was like, do you follow the word of wisdom as you understand it? And the. They got rid of the young women's personal progress, and they changed what the young women do now. And it's much more like, what do you want to do? What activities can you do to become more like Christ? They do. I think they do want people to start thinking for themselves more. But to an extent, I think what the church is going through is what a lot of churches before have gone through, where you're gonna have a broad spectrum of observance and it's okay. Like, if you had a Jewish person tell you they're Jewish, you would never be like, oh, well, how Jewish are you?
John Dehlin [03:07:43] They'd say, ish. I'm Jewish.
Margi Dehlin [03:07:45] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:07:46] And sometimes they make that distinction. Oh, well, I'm a. I'm a ethnic Jew. I'm an ethnic Jew.
John Dehlin [03:07:54] Cultural Jew.
Olivia Calvert [03:07:54] Yes. Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:07:55] Secular Jew.
Olivia Calvert [03:07:56] Sometimes they make those distinguish in, okay, whatever.
John Dehlin [03:08:02] Or they say, unorthodox.
Olivia Calvert [03:08:04] Yeah. Or they say unorthodox. Whatever.
John Dehlin [03:08:07] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:08:07] But there's so many ways of living. Catholicism, Judaism, other. These religions that have been around so long, they've already gone through this where they have to. They have to be willing to have different levels of observance within the church. And I think our church is finally starting to do that. We're starting to see, especially my generation and the generation coming up, very skeptical of authority. We're much more individual, doing our own thing. And so I think we're going to see a lot more of this way of thinking this. A lot more of this. Well, I don't really do all the things, but I'm still Mormon.
Margi Dehlin [03:08:46] Do you experience that? Like, do you feel like you have peers? Like, you're not alone in this? Do you feel like you have company?
Olivia Calvert [03:08:54] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [03:08:55] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [03:08:55] I can't even tell you how many times Hiram has come home from, like, talking to someone, like, running into someone from our mission or someone that he works with and being like, I had such a cool conversation about the church today. They're like, exactly where we are. And we have some really good friends who are in the exact same place we are, some family members who are in the exact same place we are. My brother, a few months ago, he's been out of the church for a while, and he was like, so is this, like, normal now where, like, people are just kind of doing what they want and still being active and kind of pick and choosing? I'm like, yeah, I think it's getting more and more common, especially with this younger generation. And so the church has to adjust because we're going to be the leaders in 20, 30 years. We're going to be the ones conference, giving the talks. And I think the church will look very different in those coming decades.
John Dehlin [03:09:47] And it's funny because many ex Mormons leave the church and they're mad at how strict the church was. But then when they learned that the church is now becoming less strict, they get super grumpy.
Olivia Calvert [03:09:58] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:09:58] And angry. That's not Mormonism. You know what I mean?
Olivia Calvert [03:10:00] Yeah. That's not the church I grew up in.
John Dehlin [03:10:03] Yeah. It's like, do you want the church to get better or not? You know what I mean? It sounds like the church is getting better from your perspective.
Olivia Calvert [03:10:09] I think it's getting better. I think it's learning a lot. I think it's listening to what its members are saying and what its ex members are saying, and I think they're making a lot of adjustments, and I think they'll continue to. And for some super orthodox members that can challenge their testimony because they feel like the church shouldn't change. The church should not conform to the world as the world becomes more wicked. The church should not make adjustments. But then you have the other camp that's like, no, this is a good thing. They're able to keep more people now because they're less rigid.
Margi Dehlin [03:10:44] Yeah. I wonder if at this point, it would be valuable to acknowledge that there's a certain level of privilege in having this perspective. Do you see that? Do you see that part of the reason why maybe this could work better for you than, say, someone who identifies as lgbtq, or is that actually, it was a pretty good overall fit in general for you? Do you see it that way?
Olivia Calvert [03:11:14] Absolutely. I'm so glad you asked because I wanted to bring up. I do feel like I am in a very specific, privileged situation where it does work for me and it has worked for me in my life. And I understand that it does not work for everyone. I had a conversation with my sister in law last summer. We were kind of talking about this and I was just like, you know, I don't know if the church is for everyone. She was like, I don't know if the gospel's for everyone. I'm like, yeah, you might be right. Like maybe this church is not for everyone. And I think that's okay.
Margi Dehlin [03:11:46] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:11:46] And I am one of those people that it works for, but I may have kids that it doesn't work for.
Margi Dehlin [03:11:54] Right.
Olivia Calvert [03:11:55] And friends that it doesn't work for. I have friends and family that it doesn't work for.
Margi Dehlin [03:12:00] Right.
Olivia Calvert [03:12:00] And I think they're totally right. I would never say, oh, no, you need to come back to church. Church.
Margi Dehlin [03:12:05] Right.
Olivia Calvert [03:12:05] You need to be a member of our church.
Margi Dehlin [03:12:08] And even the, the layers of maybe having a family that is also more liberal or let's just say supportive of, as opposed to a more orthodox family of origin where you know that that could make it feel differently. And then I guess you've addressed the layer of risk when it comes to, what's it called?
Olivia Calvert [03:12:35] The roulette.
Margi Dehlin [03:12:37] You know, the fact that, you know, anyone who's kind of thinking about doing this has to kind of acknowledge a level of risk. Right. Bishops change. You could have an approving bishop, a real liberal bishop that then gets replaced by a stake president. That. And so there is a level of risk and things that are outside your control maybe in this working versus you being called out and risking kind of. Yeah. Being ousted from this type of like plan. Do you feel that?
Olivia Calvert [03:13:12] I feel that a little bit. I do feel like bishops are getting more. Less rigid with their members. They want to retain members, they want members to go to the temple. And so they're willing to have a lot more leeway with what members believe in order to keep them coming. So I don't feel that risk as much.
Margi Dehlin [03:13:36] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [03:13:37] But I do. I don't know. And how about the family?
Margi Dehlin [03:13:44] The family aspect of having a family maybe where maybe they don't live close to you. Like if they live close to you and are very orthodox and kind of having those Sunday dinners where you're going home, like, does it make a difference to you? Or do you honestly feel like even if your parents were very, let's just say orthodox Mormon, you had a more orthodox family system of origin that. That Disapproval, like, do you feel like that would make a difference or do you feel like you would for you, it be the same?
John Dehlin [03:14:19] You are near your husband's family, right?
Olivia Calvert [03:14:21] Yes. Yeah. All of his family. All of his mom's side is all here in Utah.
Margi Dehlin [03:14:25] Do they identify as orthodox?
Olivia Calvert [03:14:28] Oh, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:14:28] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [03:14:29] Like, if we were to leave the church, we'd be the first ones.
Margi Dehlin [03:14:31] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [03:14:32] It'd be a big deal. But so on my side of the family, I don't really feel any of that risk of it hurting relationships, maybe with my dad, because my dad is kind of. My dad and I are really the last ones standing going to church.
John Dehlin [03:14:48] Oh, wait. So are you able to talk about your, I guess, mom and siblings church wise or.
Olivia Calvert [03:14:53] Oh, yeah, sure. I mean, my. Okay. So my youngest sister, she stopped going to church as a teenager. Yeah. She's. She said over the weekend she never believed any of it. Both my brothers left around covet time.
Margi Dehlin [03:15:05] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [03:15:06] And to this day, we've never talked about it. Like, we've never really addressed why they left. I have my assumptions.
John Dehlin [03:15:15] That's so interesting.
Margi Dehlin [03:15:16] That is so interesting.
Olivia Calvert [03:15:17] It is so Mormon to like, not talk about.
John Dehlin [03:15:21] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:15:22] Why people leave.
John Dehlin [03:15:23] Don't talk about Bruno.
Olivia Calvert [03:15:25] Yeah. It is the elephant in the room. But you never address it. So both my brothers have left, and then my mom, my parents got divorced the same year I got married. They got divorced right after I got married.
Margi Dehlin [03:15:36] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [03:15:37] And she remarried, and she's married to a non member, and so she just kind of stopped going. But she told me on Sunday she still believes it. She's like, I've never had any reason not to believe it. I just like, it's not really a good fit right now. It's kind of where my mom's at.
John Dehlin [03:15:52] Got it.
Olivia Calvert [03:15:52] Yeah. So for my side of the family, it's like.
Margi Dehlin [03:15:55] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:15:55] Really? No risk. Nothing would change.
Margi Dehlin [03:15:57] That's right.
Olivia Calvert [03:15:57] My brothers paved the way.
Margi Dehlin [03:15:59] Yep.
Olivia Calvert [03:16:00] But then on my husband's family, there's a little bit of worry there. But they're also so non judgmental and non, like, confrontational. Like, they wouldn't sit us down and be like, you're sinning. You need to come back to God.
Margi Dehlin [03:16:17] I see.
Olivia Calvert [03:16:18] That would never really happen. And they. We've already had a lot of conversations with them. My Hiram and his dad have had a lot of conversations about word of wisdom, tithing, stuff like that, where Hiram feels very open talking to them.
John Dehlin [03:16:33] Mm.
Olivia Calvert [03:16:34] So we're also very lucky and privileged in that regard as well, that there's just not a lot of.
Margi Dehlin [03:16:40] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:16:41] Family pushback that we have to worry about.
Margi Dehlin [03:16:43] Yeah, yeah. Thanks for sharing that.
Honest Reflections on the Church's Policies
John Dehlin [03:16:46] You kind of already answered this, but I want to ask it directly. What about if somebody were to say to you, the Mormon Church is homophobic. It discriminates against gay and lesbian and transgender people. So it's, it's complicit in the harm to be a member of an unethical, homophobic or transphobic organization. What would you say to that?
Olivia Calvert [03:17:04] That is something that I have yet to really have a good response for.
John Dehlin [03:17:08] Okay.
Olivia Calvert [03:17:08] Because I know that that's a very real thing that people go to. I have a lot of go through, I have a lot of gay friends and I have people who've felt very discriminated and hurt by the church and can't be who they are.
John Dehlin [03:17:24] So you don't like that?
Olivia Calvert [03:17:26] No, I want them to feel like they can come and feel loved because I don't think Christ would ever treat them in a bad way to make. I mean, Christ would make them feel loved and welcome no matter what. I guess I would just say I feel like the church is making strides, they are making changes. They're not the only organization in the world to be homophobic and script discriminatory. And I think they're working on it.
John Dehlin [03:17:57] Okay. Similarly, sometimes when I talk to Margi, I feel like she's a little bit more grumpy at the church than me. And she often reminds me that the church is a patriarchy and it's kind of built by and for men and that women often. And it's not just Margi, many of the ex Mormon women I meet are, can be a lot more angry at the church than the men because they felt harmed as women by the church. So what do you think about all the, all the modesty and chastity and, and just the patriarchy and that women are in effect, second class citizens. What if someone were to say it's unethical to be a member of a church that discriminates against women and that sexualizes and, you know, mistreats women?
Olivia Calvert [03:18:43] Well, let me tell you, I would not be surprised if in the next 30 years, women do have the priesthood again. We had the priesthood in Joseph Smith's time. Right. Weren't women like sort of.
John Dehlin [03:18:55] Yeah, more than now.
Olivia Calvert [03:18:57] I, I'm a little embarrassed to say this now after watching so much Mormon stories. I had that perspective of, well, women are better and men know it. And so we've given men the priesthood because they need something like a pat on the head. Yeah. Here's Your little priesthood. We're the women. We bring children into the world. Like, we're the. We're the wise ones. We're just the better sex. That's kind of how I viewed it. And so I was like, I don't need the priesthood.
John Dehlin [03:19:26] Interesting.
Olivia Calvert [03:19:27] And I think my relationship with the priesthood as well kind of affected my view of it. Like, I just never really believed in the priesthood. And I just feel like if God.
John Dehlin [03:19:39] Right.
Olivia Calvert [03:19:39] Like if God wants to use me as a conduit, he will, and me not being a man won't stop that. So I don't know if that really affected it either. But that was something that just never really bothered me of women not having the priesthood because I just didn't have a strong testimony of the priesthood anyway.
John Dehlin [03:19:59] Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned spirituality in the mountains. Any other ways you practice spirituality now or not? Not so much.
Current Spiritual Practice and Beliefs
Olivia Calvert [03:20:09] Not so much. Just spending time with my child, spending time outside. Those are really when I feel the most spiritual. Spending time with myself. I feel like this last year of really learning about myself, introspection, all of that has really felt very spiritual to me.
John Dehlin [03:20:33] Mm.
Olivia Calvert [03:20:34] And so just diving into why I do things, why I think this way has been a spiritual experience for me.
Margi Dehlin [03:20:42] Curiosity. Yeah. I noticed in your outline you said something to the effect of. That you feel like going through a faith transition is a gift. It's been a gift to you.
Olivia Calvert [03:20:58] Oh, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:20:58] To do this. And I wanted to ask why.
Olivia Calvert [03:21:01] I do think we're taught, growing up to be very scared of questioning and doubts. Right. Like, doubt your doubts. Don't talk to people who don't believe. Like, those kinds of messages. Like, just stay on the straight and narrow. Keep your faith. Don't ever question it.
John Dehlin [03:21:23] Covenant path.
Olivia Calvert [03:21:24] Yeah, covenant path.
John Dehlin [03:21:25] Stay on the covenant path.
Margi Dehlin [03:21:26] Don't change.
John Dehlin [03:21:27] Yeah. Stay in the boat.
Olivia Calvert [03:21:30] I don't think that's the most fulfilling way to live life. I have found this last year's experience to be extremely fulfilling because of all the effort I've put into it and how much I've learned about myself. I would encourage everyone to doubt their faith, to doubt their beliefs, to question. You have to reach a point, point at some point in your life where you have to take a step back and ask yourself, why do I believe this? And I think it's a really important step to grow, to go through this. It's been very joyful. It's been very interesting and fun for me. And you can just learn so much about who you are as you go through a faith. I don't I don't even like calling it a crisis because it's really just part of maturing and growing when you have to ask yourself, what am I going to teach my kids? What do I really believe? Do I just believe this because my parents taught me, is this really the right way to live my life? I don't think anyone should be afraid of it. It's a good challenge.
Margi Dehlin [03:22:48] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:22:49] Over half of those who leave Mormonism end up identifying as atheist or agnostic. And a lot of our Christian listeners get really grumpy that so many ex Mormons stop believing in Jesus and the Bible. How do you have any thoughts on how you've managed to maintain a belief in God and Jesus in the Bible when half of the others have not?
Margi Dehlin [03:23:13] Yes.
Olivia Calvert [03:23:15] I feel like you're gonna have a God. It's part of the human condition to have a God. Even if you're secular, you still have a belief system. You still have something or someone you worship. We see it a lot with people who, in their own way, worship pop stars or pop culture or politics or activism. Like, you choose a religion no matter what. I don't think that's something you cannot do. So for me, I feel like the idea of Christ, even if Christ is not the Son of God, even if Christianity isn't true, capital T true.
Margi Dehlin [03:23:59] Right.
Olivia Calvert [03:24:00] It still. It's true in the sense that I believe following Christ's example, even if it's just the myth of Christ, is a great way to live. And if I'm gonna have a God, why not have it be Christ? Why not have that example be the example for my life? When I read about his teachings, when I read the things he did, that's what I want to do. So why not Christ? Even if I just don't feel that desire to really break down Christianity, and maybe that's because I'm only a year in. I know a lot of people do that later on. I don't really feel that desire because I think Christianity is a good way to live life. And maybe I will get super into Buddhism, Taoism, other ways of. Of living, and kind of combine them all. I feel like I'm a little more Unitarian Universalist these days.
Margi Dehlin [03:24:56] Yeah.
Tattoo, Losses, and Personal Meaning
John Dehlin [03:24:59] What's your tattoo about?
Olivia Calvert [03:25:01] Oh, yeah. So last year. Can you see it? Last year I had three miscarriages back to back. They were all pretty early in pregnancy, which, you know, it's not that it's nice, but it's a little easier to handle. But it was a really, really hard year emotionally because of that.
Margi Dehlin [03:25:24] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:25:26] And when I had my third miscarriage, I was sitting in the doctor's office, I'd just been told the news, and it just. A thought just occurred to me, okay, I want a tattoo. I know what I want it to be. And so I got four little swallows because, as we've established, I love birds. These are barn swallows. We have a lot of them here. I believe they represent coming home. And so I thought that was a beautiful representation of my three little babies I lost. And then the fourth one is my current child. She's the. She's the biggest one with her wings spread out. And then the other three are my lost babies. And everyone's first question is, what are you gonna do when you have more kids? Are you gonna add birds and just go all the way down? As of right now, I don't think I'll change it. I don't think I'll add to it. This was something I wanted to do in the moment to kind of help me heal from the miscarriages and remember those lost babies. It was also a choice because I felt so out of control with those three miscarriages that I was like, I wanna do something for myself, make a choice. I want to remember these kids. I've always wanted a tattoo. I didn't know where. I didn't know what it would be. I didn't have something that was important enough to me. And so my tattoos were that.
Margi Dehlin [03:26:54] Yeah, it's beautiful.
Risks of Coming on Mormon Stories and Closing Thoughts
John Dehlin [03:26:57] I think this is the last question. There was a time, let's just say 2017, 18, we're coming on Mormon stories. Could be enough to be excommunicated just because the church viewed it as an apostate thing. Nowadays, I don't get the sense the church is excommunicating people just for coming on the podcast. But, you know, do you have any worry that not just coming on the podcast, but publicly declaring your non literal belief or your non belief or your non observance, or even like saying, I, I recommend Faith Journey or I recommend doubting. Do you have any worry that, you know, you could be disciplined by the church for speaking up and speaking out? I mean, it has happened.
Olivia Calvert [03:27:41] Oh, yeah, no, it happened to you. Here's the thing. I think people like you who've gone through those experiences have paved the way for people like me to be able to do that more openly without those big consequences. So first of all, thank you. I don't really feel concerned about it. If I do receive disciplinary action, I'm just kind of like, well, okay, your loss. I Guess because I don't have that really literal belief anymore. I don't believe I'm gonna go to hell if they excommunicate me. I don't believe my name will be blotted out because I spoke about what I believe. I think what I believe can help a lot of people who are in my same situation can help them feel like, okay, maybe I. I really do have choice. And I can believe what I want to believe. And there's not just a one size fits all way to faith or lack of faith. Like, I have control over my own life. I think that's what God wants from us, to have our own control and to choose how we live. So, no, I'm not super concerned about that.
John Dehlin [03:28:57] The irony of is beautiful. And the irony is I found that the more rigid and strict you were raised in the church, the more likely you are to leave it as an adult. And nowadays, the more flexible you are in your beliefs, the more able you are to stay in the church.
Olivia Calvert [03:29:16] Yes. I have seen that personally in friends and family. The ones who were raised the strictest are usually the ones who leave and who leave really bitter, Traumatized. Traumatized.
Margi Dehlin [03:29:31] Hurt.
Olivia Calvert [03:29:32] Absolutely. Yeah. I have close friends and family that that's happened to.
John Dehlin [03:29:38] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:29:38] So I look at them and I'm like, okay, I don't want to raise my kids in a super strict, rigid household. It just doesn't seem to really ever work out too well.
John Dehlin [03:29:48] And there's also probably a lot of people who. They're the ones that say, that's not Mormon. You're not Mormon because you're not doing all the things. But it's their perception that the only way to be Mormon is a strict, rigid, harsh way is what's limiting to their often being able to stay. Because there's so many people who have that rigid view of what it means to be Mormon, where if they were to see this episode or others and go, oh, there's, you know, you can be a pick and choose Mormon. You can be a buffet Mormon, you can be a cool Mormon, you can be a lax Mormon, you could be a casual Mormon. Oh, well, then I can stay. Like, ironically, this example could help a lot of people stay in the church. Right.
Olivia Calvert [03:30:35] Totally. I think some people need flexibility in their lives.
John Dehlin [03:30:38] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:30:39] They need to know that it's not all black and white. I really just don't believe in black and white thinking.
John Dehlin [03:30:45] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:30:46] And I think that if a lot of people are a little more flexible with themselves, then there is more of a place for them in the church give themselves that permission to live at their own way and know that they don't have to stick to just that one way their whole life. That's my hope, that it can help people stay if they want to. And if they don't, great. Good for them.
John Dehlin [03:31:16] What do you think, Margi? Should we go back?
Margi Dehlin [03:31:20] Hilarious.
Olivia Calvert [03:31:22] There's a place for you, Margi. It's a place for all of us.
Margi Dehlin [03:31:25] I love the place I have created for myself.
John Dehlin [03:31:30] So is that. Is that a no?
Margi Dehlin [03:31:34] It's not about me. Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:31:35] We're here for Olivia, and I don't think you should. I don't think people who don't want to be there should be there.
John Dehlin [03:31:43] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:31:43] Yeah. I think there's so many people who are happier outside of the church, and I'm happy for them. And who knows, maybe that'll be me one day. We'll have to see. I'm in the thick of it now.
Margi Dehlin [03:31:53] Right. We're all in process. In the process of becoming. So this is really special to have, you know, a picture of you in this moment. Right. This is you in this moment on your particular journey. So.
Olivia Calvert [03:32:11] Yeah. I know one of the risks of coming on at this point in my journey is maybe my mind will be totally changed in a month. Like, I won't agree with any of the things I just said, but it's important to remember who I was at this point.
Margi Dehlin [03:32:29] That's right.
Olivia Calvert [03:32:30] And that's okay. If it's memorialized forever on the Internet, I can look back and see how much I've changed and grown in five years or ten years.
Margi Dehlin [03:32:41] That's right. Yep. Thank you for coming on.
John Dehlin [03:32:46] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:32:47] Sharing yourself with us.
John Dehlin [03:32:49] Super grateful. This is so fun. This is so interesting. And. And rarely, for some reason, men are more often likely to do this type of episode than women. So it's just really great to get. I don't know, do you call yourself a pimo, physically and mentally out. That doesn't sound like your identity per se.
Olivia Calvert [03:33:08] Yeah. On your. On your form, you have to identify yourself.
Margi Dehlin [03:33:13] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:33:13] And I was like, do I choose pimo? Do I choose active? I don't really consider myself a pimo, so I've never called myself that.
Margi Dehlin [03:33:23] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:33:24] I would still call myself a member of the church.
John Dehlin [03:33:26] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:33:27] Not of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints because it's so long,
Margi Dehlin [03:33:32] but you're defining for yourself what that means as opposed to having it defined for you.
Olivia Calvert [03:33:38] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:33:39] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:33:39] Yeah.
Olivia Calvert [03:33:40] 100%.
John Dehlin [03:33:41] You're a Mormon. You're active Mormon who drinks coffee, has tattoos, and doesn't wear your garments but still attends church once a month.
Olivia Calvert [03:33:49] There you go.
Margi Dehlin [03:33:50] Now for now we see you, Olivia.
Olivia Calvert [03:33:53] Thank you. Yeah, I'm very happy with how I'm living right now. It's been great.
John Dehlin [03:33:59] Yeah. Well, Olivia Calvert, thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories and being willing to to share your path.
Olivia Calvert [03:34:08] Thanks for having me. It's been fun.
John Dehlin [03:34:11] Yeah. You make casual covenant keeping look really good.
Olivia Calvert [03:34:17] I'm leading people astray. Hiram sometimes makes a joke that I'm carefully leading him to hell. So I'm carefully leading your listeners to hell who are still active.
John Dehlin [03:34:28] You make lax buffet cafeteria Mormonism look cool. Fabulous.
Olivia Calvert [03:34:32] Oh, thank you. Well, I am a cool Mormon. This is what cool Mormonism looks like.
John Dehlin [03:34:39] All right, well, thank you so much for joining us.
Olivia Calvert [03:34:41] Thanks.
Margi Dehlin [03:34:41] Thank you for having me.
John Dehlin [03:34:42] And thanks, Margi for being my co host.
Margi Dehlin [03:34:45] Yeah, always.
John Dehlin [03:34:46] And thanks to all of you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Again, I mentioned at the beginning, please like and subscribe to this episode. Comment on it. That helps with the algorithm. Please share it. We couldn't do this without our donors. Ad revenue is just a teeny bit of what keeps us alive. So what does keep us alive is our monthly donors. And we lose 10 or 20 monthly donors every month for whatever reason. So if you value this content and you're not a monthly donor, all we ask is that you go to MormonStories.org click on the donate button. 10 bucks a month, 25 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month. Whatever you can afford. It's tax deductible in the US we're transparent in our finances and we do our best to make sure that all the money goes towards the mission of Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories Foundation. So please support us if you can. Thanks to everyone who does. We love your comments, we love your questions. So email us@mormonstoriesmail.com comment on this episode, share it and and then also, the way we learned about Olivia is she filled out the application form and recorded a three minute video and that's how we heard about her and that's why she's here. So if you want to be a guest on Mormon Stories podcast, all you got to do is fill out the application form. But please make sure and do the three minute video. And specifically, we just want to hear why you think your story would resonate with our audience today in 2025. And if Margi likes your video, you may get accepted.
Margi Dehlin [03:36:22] I see what you did there.
John Dehlin [03:36:23] No, we decided together. Anyway, we hope, we hope some of you or you know, many of you will apply. We can't accept every application, obviously. We've got like 900 applications in the past year, and, you know, obviously that's like three a day, so we can't accept them all. But we're always still looking for good stories. So right now we're booked out through October. November.
Margi Dehlin [03:36:47] What is it, November right now?
John Dehlin [03:36:49] Yeah. But, you know, if you got a great story, sometimes we'll bump people or move people's schedule.
Olivia Calvert [03:36:56] It's true.
Margi Dehlin [03:36:59] We don't do that.
Olivia Calvert [03:37:00] We do have people.
Margi Dehlin [03:37:01] We have dates. Open up.
Olivia Calvert [03:37:03] No, we don't.
John Dehlin [03:37:04] Okay. I record more than I should is what happens.
Olivia Calvert [03:37:07] Yeah, I got bumped because I'm extra interesting.
Margi Dehlin [03:37:12] You moved into a space that. Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:37:15] All right. Anyway, John Dehlin, thanks, Margi, thanks. Olivia, thanks, Brooklyn and Julia for all they do to help the Open Stories foundation, along with our board. Thanks again for joining us today. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care of.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Thumbnail Credits: Image of Olivia Calvert provided by herself; Background image of Rexburg, Idaho Temple by Pavili255
One Response
Mormon on my own terms episode 2049:
John, what did you think of this episode at completion?
I am a frequent listener, as I have been on my own deconstruction journey over the past several years. I have much I could say, and can save that for the future if interested, but I’d love to know your thoughts after the interview. I started listening and thought.. this one isn’t for me… but had nothing else I was wanting to listen to, so I gave in. Oddly, I felt repelled in this interview often. I felt irritated with Olivia’s “on the fence” mentality towards a religion that is all or nothing. I felt she was almost opposite of members who are strict in keeping standards in youth, then leave the church and become overly sexual or alcoholics because they had no exposure so their development was immature.
The “opposite” comes in the history of Olivia being lax in how she followed the church standards, then went on a mission and decided to try “all in” when she is actually not, all in. I feel it is a misinterpretation of what the church demands. It’s pay to play, wear the garments, magnify and blindly trust… if not, you failed. Does she not know the foundations of these “doctrines” and their applications? She said she has listened to a lot of your podcasts. I kept thinking…just wait until your nursery daughter becomes a teen.. then the “negotiables” become nonnegotiable.
Perhaps she hasn’t felt the betrayal because the church is allowing standards to change in a way that was unacceptable to me growing up. I feel it makes the sacrifices I made as a teen, insignificant… or the years I spent as a child newlywed, wearing garments and giving money we didn’t have to the church, not necessary… and so much more.
Anyways, I’d just love to hear your thoughts. I’m a Houstonian, 38yo mama, raising 3 kids.. I’m one of those stories where I am out, but so intrigued by history and people’s stories, that I continue to find strength listening to your podcast.. especially as I navigate a marriage with a Utah boy that I hope will care enough about our marriage (well me) to learn what I have learned. He still has walls and I don’t know how much more I can take, but I’ll do anything for my kids.
Thanks for what you do! Also, Margie, thank you for asking the questions you did in this podcast. From the tone of Olivia, it sounded like the tougher questions needed to come from you rather than John.