Introduction and Episode Context

Julia [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Mormon Stories. My name is Julia Sanders and I am presiding today. So that's why I'm in the hot seat today. So today we have an amazing panel of women. Can we go ahead and show everybody? Hi. So we have Alyssa, we have Celeste Davis, and we have Samantha Shelley. You'll recognize some of them from being on Mormon Stories before or from being on their various platforms. And so actually, in fact, I think we're just going to do introductions right now before we jump into the content. Alyssa, do you want to introduce yourself?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:00:30] Yeah, sure. Hello, I am Alyssa Whitbeck. I this is my second time on Mormon Stories. I was on in 2020, so it's been a while. You can find me on TikTok. That's where I talk about a lot of this stuff at List Likes Words. And I also have some essays published where I talk about some of these things as well. And those are linked on my social media too.

Julia [00:00:51] Thank you. Celeste, do you want to introduce yourself?

Guest [00:00:54] Sure.

Celeste Davis [00:00:55] Hi, I'm Celeste Davis. This is my second time on Mormon Stories as well. I was on this past summer and I talk about all things Mormonism, feminism on Instagram, celestemdavis and on my substack, which is also celestemdavis on substack.

Julia [00:01:18] Yeah, I know with Celeste, you had several of your articles published on the church's website, right?

Celeste Davis [00:01:22] I did. Back in the day when I was right.

Guest [00:01:25] Yes.

Julia [00:01:25] I think a lot of them are still there, if I'm not mistaken. And I think, yeah, we were wondering

Celeste Davis [00:01:29] if they were going to get taken down when I want a Mormon Stories, but they weren't.

Julia [00:01:32] Yeah, they're still up there. And Samantha, do you want to introduce yourself?

Samantha Shelley [00:01:35] Yes, hello. I am one half of Self on the shelf. We're a YouTube channel run. Most platforms are Self on the Shelf and I'm happy to be here today.

Julia [00:01:46] Thank you. So if you, if we go back to the slides, we can introduce some of these news articles that we're we're reading from. So this first one is the from the Salt Lake Tribune and it's the title is LDS Church Responds to Firestorm Over Speech about Women Points to Glitch for Vanishing Social Media comments. So that's where a lot of this bulk is coming from. And then today they just a few hours ago the New York Times released this article called does the Mormon Church Empower Women? A Social Media Storm Answers. And also this one was written by Ruth Graham. And so, so thank you to her for this article. And then the one before was written by, let's see, Tamara Kennedy, if I'm saying that right, Kemsley. Yeah, Kemsley, sorry about that. So, yeah, that's where these two are coming from, was these two great articles. So, yeah, so just as a way of introduction, there is. Oh, yeah. Just before anything else, so Monday there's going to be another panel of women that are going to talk about similar, like a part two of this, where they're going to talk about more broadly this context of what's happening. So just prepare for that for, for Monday. So just to give a little bit of background of what's happening, if we go to the, one of these slides and the New York Times published this in their story specifically, that's where this is all coming from. So there was an incident that happened in the San Francisco Bay area. Sam, do you want to read this slide?

Background on the Women's Devotional Controversy

Samantha Shelley [00:03:08] Yes, I would love to. The current groundswell began last fall when a regional authority cracked down on a practice in the San Francisco Bay area of inviting women leaders to sit on the stand, a raised seating area facing the congregation during Sunday services. The stand is a place of status reserved for presiding authorities, roles for which only men are eligible, along with any others participating in a specific service, including women and children. Local leaders had extended that invitation to some women leaders who were not participating in services. When the church took away this gesture of representation, Amy Watkins Jensen was indignant. She has three daughters and is a lifelong church member who had been able to sit on the stand in her capacity as a volunteer leader. We do this labor and it should not be invisible, she said. She spoke with her bishop and continued up the chain of authority, all of whom were men. Nothing changed. She. She wrote a public letter which almost 3,000 Latter Day Saints signed, and started an Instagram account, womenonthestand, asking for clarity and consistency on the issue for the global church. Ms. Watkins Jensen's immediate concern was local, but spread quickly to other communities.

Julia [00:04:16] Thank you, Samantha. Did you have any thoughts on that specifically, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [00:04:20] Well, just the obvious point of like who's on the stand is who children are growing up seeing as the people that matter. So if you don't have women on the stand, it's, it's ingraining early that women don't matter, aren't the people to look up to in the way that men are. So, yeah, it is disturbing that women can't be on the stand, obviously.

Julia [00:04:42] Yeah. Were there other thoughts about that specific taking the removing women from the sand? Yeah, for me, it was just like they're not doing anything. They're just sitting there and they're just. They're just being visible. And so that was. So a lot of women were hurt by that, and very understandably. So. So that's sort of the background of what was happening with the women in the church. And so this past Sunday, there was a devotional. Okay, so this is a little bit more of that for the. The LDS Church wants women to be less visible. And so a lot of people publish this. This was published on the Sally Tribune as well. And it just, again, it just hurt a lot of women to have this happen. Like, it's just a very quiet way of showing representation. So, yeah, on Sunday, there was a devotional given and it was all. All the. The release side of presidency spoke. And then, of course, you have the prophet who speaks last, because women can't speak last in their own meetings. But so I just, I have some clips that just from that fireside. And so if we go to this first clip, she just gives a little bit of context for the Relief Society. And I wanted to give a little bit of history surrounding that.

Guest 2 [00:05:54] My sisters. Oh, how I love you. What a glorious opportunity it is to be assembled worldwide on this historic occasion, the 182nd anniversary of the organization of the Relief Society.

Julia [00:06:11] Yeah, so I just wanted to share that because. So it's a very short clip, but she's just saying this is the 182nd. She does say it correctly. She words that this is the 182nd anniversary of the day it was organized. Which is true. That is correct. However, I don't think a lot of people realize that the Relief Society was stopped for 23 years. And just I say it sometimes on my tiktoks and people are surprised by that. So on March 17th of 1842, that was when the Relief Society began. And then on March 16th of 1844, so the day before its second birthday, the relief Society was ended. And so this quote I wanted to share because it's super interesting. On March 9th of 1845, in the discourse of the High to the High Priest quorum, Brigham Young made this following statement. He says, I will curse every man that lets his wife or daughter meet again until I tell them what our Relief Societies for. To relieve us of our best men. They relieved us of Joseph and Hyrum. That is what they will lead to. I don't want the advice or counsel of any woman. And they will lead us down to hell.

Samantha Shelley [00:07:15] We know Brigham

Julia [00:07:18] anyway, so just like, yeah, he was very much against the women meeting. And he clearly blamed them for Joseph Smith's martyrdom because of the church was. I think it's partly to do with polygamy, because Emma was publishing in the newspapers that he was not a polygamist, but he clearly was. And then there's another quote from that same meeting that Brigham Young said. He says, when I want sisters or wives of the members of the church to. To get up Relief Society, I will summon them to my aid. But until that time, let them stay at home. And if you see females huddling together, veto the concern. And if they say Joseph started it, tell them it is a damned lie, for I know he never encouraged it. And so the Relief Society didn't start up again until December 9th of 1867. So again, for 23 years, there was no Relief Society. Were there any thoughts about that? I just wanted to share that for context of. Of the history of the early society.

Celeste Davis [00:08:11] Yeah, I think it just goes to show how erased women's history is, because, like, I like to think myself pretty well versed. I just. In case I need to reference it, I have my essential writings of Mormon feminism along with me. And I didn't know that until I don't know today. Like, I didn't realize that everybody was not there for 23 years. And I think most people in the church don't know that because women's history is so erased, it's invisible.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:08:38] Like, we have.

Celeste Davis [00:08:38] The only women's history we have in the church is the quotes and the little videos that hold up the patriarchy, that hold up patriarchal supremacy, that hold up the prophets and their words. We don't. We don't have words or historical events written down that are set at church that are just women's history for women.

Julia [00:09:05] Yeah, I was just thinking of. There's a book by Martha Bradley called Pedestals and Podiums. And if you want to reference more of this history, she's written an incredible book about that. So that's one of the places to go for more context. And then the book you held up. Can you hold it up again? Mormon Feminism by. Who is Joanna Brooks?

What the Devotional Actually Said About Women's Authority

Celeste Davis [00:09:24] Joanna Brooks, Rachel Hunt, Steen Black, and Hannah Wheelwright.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:09:27] Perfect.

Julia [00:09:27] Thank you. Okay, so the next clip is. Can we go to that one? Okay, so this one. This is also a short clip. I wanted to show it anyway just to. Just to put it into perspective.

Guest 2 [00:09:42] I am with my counselors, Sister Dennis and Sister Yee, and the general primary and general young women presidencies.

Julia [00:09:51] Yeah. Again, really short. Really short clip. But that whole room of Women. That's it. That's all the women auxiliary leaders in the church. So. And I put it into a slide again. This is the. The church used to print these off. Maybe they still do in the center fold of the. The ensign or the. The church magazines. So there are nine women listed and there's 124 men listed. And these nine women are not ordained to end off to any office of the priesthood. Women are part of the auxiliaries of the church. And if you look up the word auxiliary, it literally means additional or supplementary or extra. It's not essential. And so I just. That, that just boggles my mind. Like we still only have this much, this many women in the church to represent us. So not only can we not be on the stand with. We just are very few and far between in leadership.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:10:40] So. Yeah, just so visibly jarring too, to just see them together and there's only a couple. I remember the first time I heard about, you know, I really thought about like the discrepancy between men and women as far as physic positions of leadership. Was thinking about how no women can be in the top position of power within the church. That's completely off the table. No women can be in the top three positions of power or the top 12 or the top 70 or the top 100. Like just the way how as far back as it goes, before any women can be involved at all is that was, I think, what really made for me when I was going through my faith crisis. Like so shocking to think about and visibly is so obvious.

Julia [00:11:24] Thank you. Yeah, that's perfect. Like, that's the point I'm trying to make too, is that women are basically invisible. We're just almost not there.

Guest [00:11:31] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:32] And the fact that Brigham Young just openly said women should just be in the home and don't gather together. Like how openly threatened the early church was by women gathering together. Something we're biologically wired to do through evolution.

Julia [00:11:45] Just.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:46] He wasn't holding back in saying it. He was like, just stay inside and

Celeste Davis [00:11:50] if I need you, I'll summon you.

Julia [00:11:52] Yeah, I'll fool you.

Guest [00:11:55] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:57] Please don't.

Julia [00:11:59] Yeah. Okay, so this next clip is actually probably where the bulk of the. The conflict comes from. So if we play this clip, this will just. I'll just have you play it.

Guest [00:12:10] When we are called and set apart or assigned to help with God's work, we are also given priesthood authority, God's authority to represent him as we fulfill our callings and assignments. In 2014, when my husband and I were Serving as mission leaders in Ecuador, President Dallin H. Oaks said this. In general, we are not accustomed to speaking of women having the authority of the priesthood and their church callings, but what other authority can it be? I was so grateful to have this added understanding and I've tried to teach this truth ever since to the women in my circles of influence. President Nelson said, as a righteous endowed Latter Day Saint woman, you speak and teach with power and authority from God. There is no other religious organization in the world that I know of that has so broadly given power and authority to women.

Julia [00:13:17] Yeah. So I added a little bit more just to make sure people didn't say I was taking her out of context. But do you guys have thoughts about that? Celeste, what were your thoughts?

Celeste Davis [00:13:29] I mean, I, I'll try to give her the benefit of the doubt and saying. I think what she was saying is because our priesthood is the, the top, most powerful God power in the world. And women, when you, you know, pray and act in your callings and use God's power, that's part of the highest power power that anyone on the earth has. And so yay for you. Technically you have the most power of any woman on the earth because you have access to this highest power of the priesthood. But just to say that like women in the LDS Church have more power and authority than any other religion is so bafflingly, mind blowingly, obviously false that it's humorous to even say it out loud. Like I said it to my, I read the quote to my teenage daughters, we haven't been to church in four years and they just said what Immediately out loud at the same time. And like, like everyone. I even told it to, like my never Mormon friends yesterday, I read it to them and their first reaction was what? Like, it's just so obvious that it's, it's funny.

Julia [00:14:43] Yeah. But when you were speaking, I don't think I've thought about it in that way because I've left the church. And so priesthood power just in general just isn't a thing for me. But like if you like, I guess with Brad Wilcox where he was said that people are playing church, maybe you can think of it in the context of people are playing like they have power, but only our church or only this church actually has power. And so with the men who have it and the women who somehow still use the power, it is more than any other organization. So I guess there's that. But like you were saying. But yeah. Alyssa, did you have. Yeah, yeah. Did you have thoughts?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:15:18] Yeah, I feel like it's just missing. The main argument, which I feel like is what is consistently happening is we're just trying to redefine terms because anytime we hear that people are uncomfortable with something, we're just trying to change the topic into something else. Like it's a fallacy to try and distract us from the larger problems happening. And again, I don't think this is her sister Davis. I think this is not her fault specifically or her problem, but I think it just shows a larger systemic issue that anytime we're showing inequities, we're going to try and redefine. Oh well, what does priesthood mean? Oh well, what does power mean? Just like we did with well, what does translation mean and what does spirit mean? It seems like that's always the first reaction that the church does as damage control. And this talk overall just felt like desperate damage control.

Julia [00:16:06] Yeah. Sam, did you have any thoughts?

Samantha Shelley [00:16:10] Well, I saw a couple people in the chat talking about her voice and that was what jumped out to me about this is just that that soft, hyper, feminine, non threatening tone that all the LDS women in leadership positions adopt. Like that's not a natural way of speaking for most women. I know the way that all of us speak is conditioned by a lot of different factors, but it's common for people to like women to leave the church and their voices will literally get deeper as they sort of allow themselves to settle into a more natural way of being. I just think every time you hear these women talk it's so clear. Like the chokehold the patriarchy has on them because literally even them embodying a more natural tone in their voices is too threatening. They literally need women to audibly like soften their voices. Even when they do get to speak, it has to be soft. It has to like minimize their strength and power, which it just all feels like I'm watching AI.

Julia [00:17:09] Honestly, that's interesting. And I've heard some of the other leaders say, like the other leaders or the auxiliaries where she'll say where, oh, we speak too shrill or she'll still coach other women on how to talk. Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah. So Nadine Hansen, she says I attend a church now where women and men serve in all positions on equal basis with men. I literally laughed out loud when I read the quote. Yeah, that's same with the church I attend. There's. We have a two women pastors and one male pastor. It's, it's just ridiculous that, that she would say or she would have that understanding, I guess. So, yeah, so just really briefly, I have a list of churches, and of course, there's a lot more that I, that I didn't add or that I'm unfamiliar with the churches that give power and authority to women. So the Lutheran Church has female pastors, Judaism has female rabbis, Episcopalians have female priests, Methodists have female pastors, Presbyterians have female pastors, and certain breakoffs of the Roman Catholic Church, although, you know, people will say that they're not but part of the Catholic Church, but they also have female priests. And that happened just like within the last decade. And so that's just to name a few of them. And so, so maybe a Sister Dennis didn't, didn't know, or maybe like you said, Celeste, maybe she just has a different understanding of what priesthood power is. But I just wanted to point that out, like this, is this our church or the Mormon Church does not have, does not give as much priesthood power and authority to women than other churches. So.

Samantha Shelley [00:18:37] And even if they did allow women to have priesthood power, that would still just be one step. Like, those women could still be upholding the patriarchy. Like, it's still, I'm sure women in some of the organizations you just listed are still upholding patriarchy as a system. And so it's not even like that would be the be all and end all. That's just like one step on the road and they can't even do that. They can't even have women on the stand.

Julia [00:19:01] Yeah, that's super true. And I. And we'll talk about that more, too, because in the. I'll just say it briefly. In the early days of the church, they did give women the priesthood. They could absolutely use it. And they were. These women still upheld very strongly patriarchy. And so like you said, that's not even a threat or it should not be seen as a threat to give these women just that little bit of power. So I love that you said that. So this next clip is. This is just shortly after she says this. And this is really troubling to me. So, yeah, we'll just play this one.

Guest [00:19:32] My dear sisters, you belong to a church which offers all its women priesthood power and authority from God. Nevertheless, just as he tried to do with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden with the tree of Life, the adversary wants to focus our attention on what we haven't been given and blind us to all that we have been given.

Julia [00:20:00] So I just. She's talking about the adversary. She says the adversary is what's making us concentrate on these things. And I. And I just didn't like that. And that was really disturbing to me. And you guys can speak if you have any comments, but in the slides, I made these lists of things that women cannot do in the church, which she says the adversary has us concentrate on. And then I want to list the things that women can do in the church and the things that the women could do in the church in the past. Sophie. So, yeah. So does someone else want to read that? Alyssa, do you want to read some of those?

Celeste Davis [00:20:28] Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:20:28] What the women cannot do in the church, hold priesthood office, pass the sacrament, perform baptisms and confirmations, preside over their own meetings, speak last in their own meetings, enter the temple or heaven without a man, lead men, lead women and children without a man, make decisions for callings without a man, conduct general meetings, remarry in the temple without a man's permission.

Julia [00:20:50] And then it goes on for the next slide, if you want to switch to the next slide. Yeah, so you want to keep going with that one, Alyssa?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:20:56] Yeah. They also cannot perform baby blessings or hold their babies during baby blessings, or pray to Heavenly Mother, or speak last in church, call around counselors, give mother's blessings, sit on the stand, and then

Julia [00:21:09] I'll just say these next ones. So until 2013, women couldn't pray in General Conference, which a lot of people don't realize that it was just that recently. And then during 1975, women were not allowed to pray in sacrament meeting. That was totally vetoed. And then until 1984, outside of four anomalies that I found, women could not speak in General Conference. And today they make up roughly 8% of the speakers. And these. That's my. That might not be all of them. That's all that. That's just all that my, me and my partner could think of. Maybe you guys can think of more, but there are so many things that women cannot do. And again, like Sister Dennis said, she made the comment that this is the adversary, having us concentrate on these things. But this next list is what women can do in the church. And again, I tried really hard to come up with this list. Samantha, do you want to read this list?

Samantha Shelley [00:21:54] Yes. Women can give talks, serve missions, serve others, be teachers, recommend counselors for approval by bishops, organize social events, lead the music, give prayers in sacrament and other meetings, and lead women and children with a man overseeing.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:22:12] Yeah.

Julia [00:22:13] So if there's more, I don't know if you guys can think of more. I really could not think of anything else.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:17] They're not springing to mind.

Julia [00:22:19] Like, I Mean, they can recommend, like, even a woman being her own counselors. Like, like, I was in the young woman's presidency and the president could recommend me to the bishop, but she couldn't ask me. She couldn't say, hey, will you be my counselor? And I don't know if you guys have had similar experiences where just women have just that much. That's all they can do is just that little list.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:39] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:22:39] Which makes it so frustrating to see this. I feel like in the last. I don't know, when I was growing up in the church, I don't remember this verbiage. Like, oh, women do have the priesthood. Women don't even worry. Like, women have it. But I feel like that's sprouted up with some books and articles and stuff, maybe in the last 10 years as a response to maybe ordained women or I don't know, as response to women asking for more. And then the response is, it's just so. It's treating us like children. Like, you. Oh, no, no. You, you. You do. You do already have the priesthood. It's like, how. Where. Why can't we use it? Why can't we do. Like, why can't we lead? Why can't. Why do we have to go to a man if we want to spend any money, if we want to have call any callings? Like, the. Nothing has changed. The only thing is that they trying to placate us with verbiage, with nothing but words or like a rebrand of priesthood power. Now you have it, too. Like, she was like, what other power could it be? Good news. It's, like, so insulting.

Julia [00:23:39] Yeah, I agree.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:23:40] Yeah, it's.

Julia [00:23:40] I hadn't heard that rhetoric until recently as well. So I don't know what. I don't know when that started coming up. So this next list is what women could do in the past, but they can no longer do. Celeste, do you want to read some of these?

Historical Rollback of Women's Roles in the Church

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:23:53] Yes.

Celeste Davis [00:23:53] What women in the church could do in the past that they no longer do today. Give blessings of healing, anoint in blessings of healing. Give baby blessings, participate in parent blessings with the Father, Give priesthood blessings to women. Give priesthood blessings to men. Administer to men in the temple, the initiatory dedicate homes. Cast out evil spirits, raise the dead and speak in tongues.

Julia [00:24:17] Yeah, so. And these are. These are all very well documented. You can see the. There was one time where a woman did. Did oversee or why I came up with the word I use, administer to a man in the temple during his washing and opening, which is not unusual. That was something that happened. And then casting out devils, dedicating homes, like. And then the blessings. There's blessings of healing and then just regular blessings of comfort that they could give. And some of these things, I will say are done in the temple with specifically the second anointing, which the Mormon stories has done episodes on that before, where the woman can bless her husband and she washes his feet. And I'm pretty sure that's. And then, of course, the women in the initiatory can. Can give blessings and anoint the women who come through. But other outside that, I don't think of women as having the priesthood except for those two experiences. Does someone want to read the comment? Samantha, do you want to read that one?

Guest 2 [00:25:11] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:25:11] From Bon Maartine. The most power I ever had was as music chair and chorister. I could influence the content and speak spirit of sacrament meeting.

Julia [00:25:20] Oh, I like that. Like, that's. How sad. They're just leading the music. Everyone's following her and doing what she's.

Samantha Shelley [00:25:29] And there could be a world where that. That is a really. Like that. That is power, like being able to sort of direct music. There is a power in that, but it's not upheld as power in the church. So as much as music can be like such a powerful force, and so having influence over that could, in theory, be magnificent and empowering within that context. It. It's not really.

Speaker G [00:25:53] Yeah.

Analyzing the Devotional's Language and Framing

Julia [00:25:53] When you were speaking, I also was remembering. So when I watched this whole devotional, I noticed that the women were quoting the men. I don't. I. It's very rare for me to see the women quoting the women. Like, even the. Even Sister Johnson was saying, oh, I gave this devotional. And the whole time I was. This is what it seemed like she was saying to me. The whole time I was quoting Elder Nelson and I was like, but what about your words? Like what? Like what. When do women get to play a part in their own speeches? Or. Anyway, I just thought that was really

Celeste Davis [00:26:20] interesting and even more rare for a man to quote a woman.

Julia [00:26:24] Oh, yeah. And then you said in one of your articles that you tried to quote. I think it was you. You tried to quote Brene Brown. And they're like. They're like, no, you cannot. You can only quote the Brethren.

Celeste Davis [00:26:35] Yeah, yeah, I vote for the Church. Yeah.

Julia [00:26:37] That's so crazy to me. Um, yeah. So. And then there's a little bit more to this list about the Relief Society, because this is a specifically. This was specifically a Relief Society devotional. And so there's things that the Relief Society could do that they can no longer do. And so if we can read this one. So the Relief Society could publish their own periodicals. And this was for spiritual means, for political means, for government, like who's running for office and for educational purposes. The women in the Relief Society could earn their own money. The Relief Society had a lot of money. They had their own real estate, they owned their own investments. They had the grain in which the. Which was used for, I think, World War I. And then they had their silkworms. They had a whole bunch of stuff that they were investing in. And they could. Back in the day, they could allow women to. To join or not allow them to join. They. There was a few times in the early days where they told women they couldn't join. But right now it's all automatic. So that's not a thing anymore. And the really exciting 100% functioned as their own society. They were very autonomous. But right now they were taken over by the brethren, and they don't make any decisions on their own. So it's the largest women's organization that is run by men. So I just wanted to be clear about how even just the Relief Society, not just women, but the society itself, has had its power and authority taken away. So this last one she quotes, she says that. Or I think this is actually President Nelson where he says that women are at the center. So we can roll that clip.

Speaker G [00:28:06] Women have been at the center of our heavenly Father's plan from the beginning. God's plan of salvation was dependent upon the heroic actions of two valiant women. Eve, the mother of all living, and Mary, the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. Sisters, please never underestimate the extraordinary power within you to influence others for good. It is a gift with which our Heavenly Father has endowed every covenant woman. As a covenant daughter of God, you have receptivity to the spirit and an enhanced moral compass that give you the capacity to receive personal revelation and to discern truth from error.

Julia [00:29:14] So did you guys. Does anyone have any thoughts on that one? So to me, like, he's pointing out Eve and Mary and he. He. But to me, to even Mary are. Are central because they're mothers. And so they're. He's limiting their. Their what they bring to just bearing children. And then he also talks about the.

Samantha Shelley [00:29:34] The.

Julia [00:29:34] Oh, the women have so many abilities. They can receive revelation and discern truth from error. I think that's all he lists, is just those few things. And anyway, so I was kind of startled that he's saying that we're at the center, the women are at the center of the church, but. But they're very limited capacity anyway. Did anyone else have thoughts?

Celeste Davis [00:29:53] That's the first thing that stuck out to me too. Eve, the mother of all living, and Mary, the mother of the Savior. Like, you're powerful. You can birth powerful men.

Julia [00:30:03] Right, Exactly.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:30:06] I think with Eve specifically, frustrating because, you know, we're taught at the temple that women, at least they did prior to 2019, were. We would veil our faces and we would hearken onto her husband because of Eve's sin. And so even though she's at the center, we're still being punished for her transgression. And. And which I think really just eliminates how much we can respect her if we can no longer trust women after what she did.

Julia [00:30:33] Right. And then I think. I think specifically, like you said, women veil their faces because they were not worthy to look upon God. And that was just recently changed. I don't know if it was 2019 or if it was more recent than that, but, like, they just now stopped doing that. Like, I don't. I don't see how. It doesn't make sense to me that he's saying women are at the center.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:52] Also, Mary, the child got impregnated without her consent. That's who we're invoking here as a powerful figure of feminism.

Julia [00:31:02] Yeah, good point.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:31:03] Yeah.

Julia [00:31:04] That's awful. So going back. So right after this devotional, the church published this quote on Instagram, they. It's. There was a picture of women, and then it says underneath her quote, there is no other religious organization in the world that I know of. That's. So that's so broadly given. That has so broadly given power and authority to women. So that was published on there. And then shortly after that, there were 8,000 comments. Just very, very quickly. And then because of that, because of all the comments, the church made a statement. And if we go to the next slide, so, yeah, you can see there, there's over 8,000 comments. And then the church made this statement. Samantha, do you want to read that one?

Samantha Shelley [00:31:43] Yeah. The church's social media team acknowledges the numerous comments that have emerged in response to this post. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts, feelings and experiences. Your comments will be shared with the church leaders who follow these issues. We, like you, strive to follow the example of Jesus Christ in our interactions, including conversations online.

Julia [00:32:03] Thank you.

Samantha Shelley [00:32:04] PR Comment.

Julia [00:32:06] Right, Right. Very much. PR and trying to take key control over this. Did you guys have other thoughts on that? Alyssa, did you have thoughts?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:32:13] Yeah, I mean, I Think on the one hand, trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm glad that they did acknowledge it and I'm glad that. I mean, we'll talk more about the deleting comments in a minute, but I'm glad that at this point there are comments that are available that are being critical and that the church is keeping at least many of them up. But even just the fact that they have to make sure that we know, oh, this is being written not by the church leaders. The church leaders are not going to even make a PR statement. It's a social media team, and then they'll pass it along. Even though the words were from the church leaders. Right. It just seems like we're always trying to take any of the pressure off the brethren. So even the statement was sure to not come from them. It was just coming from the intern.

Julia [00:32:56] I'm glad you pointed that out because I hadn't even thought about that. I was like, it's just like, oh, the church made this statement. But no, they're very specifically, this is not the brethren. This is the social media team.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:33:05] So, yeah.

Guest 2 [00:33:06] Yeah.

Julia [00:33:06] Thank you.

Celeste Davis [00:33:08] Where was that PR when that post was first published? Like, it's just wild to me that, like, they would think that this was, like, going to be a great idea.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:33:18] Right.

Celeste Davis [00:33:18] Pass this off. Like, it's so clearly, you think about it for one minute. So obviously is going to have so much pushback.

Julia [00:33:25] Right. And it drew attention to the devotional for me because I saw this and I was like, well, there's no way she said this. And so I watched the whole thing. Of course she did. But, like, had they not done this, I don't think it would have. Would have garnered very much audience or. I don't know.

The Instagram Firestorm and Comment Responses

Samantha Shelley [00:33:41] So can we also talk about the fact that the image seems to depict exclusively women of color, which also feels so disingenuous and like, just such a PR thing. Because if you look at the nine ladies in the auxiliary leadership positions, they're not nine women of color. You know, there was one black woman on the end of that little AI

Julia [00:34:00] lineup, and she was best called 2019. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very recent and that's very. Yeah. Not reflective of how it's been in the past.

Guest 2 [00:34:12] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:34:14] I just point out really briefly, too, social media on Instagram has a history of stealing other people's artwork without linking to them. Like this one, I guess because in your comments, you can only link to one person they chose to link to that. The Sister Dennis's account. Instead of the artist. And they've done that in several of the posts, despite people asking them to

Julia [00:34:33] stop doing, oh, that's so interesting. And that's really rough because, like, yeah, okay, so these next ones I have, I've gathered a bunch of comments that are. I gathered them before they were deleted, but we'll talk about that, too. But so let's just go through in some of these. Alyssa, do you want to read this one?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:34:53] Yeah. This is from Chelsea Homer. She's great. We're all begging for the absolute bare minimum here. It's a matter basic human rights. We would never accept the level of bigotry that the church visibly promotes in any other organization or business or school we support. Yet we somehow tolerate it from the place that houses all of our ideas about God and spirituality. There are women who are excommunicated in the 90s over the same questions that were still asking today. I look up the September 6th. No more hollow statements of empowerment. We're done begging and pandering.

Julia [00:35:23] Yeah. And I've heard people say that women are against. Women can often be against patriarchy, but. But once it comes to their church, they're okay with it. And I think that's kind of what Chelsea was reflecting here. So, yeah, this next one was from Mindy Gledhill. She commented as well. She says, I was raised by this village and there is so much love about my people, but to make a statement like this about other religions who actually do offer women and all members the same power and position as men is insensitive and disrespectful. The gaslighting delusions of grandeur and elitism above other religions are some of the top issues that encouraged me to finally leave my village. I think this statement is dishonest and dismissive to other religions. And I agree. And that's one of the reasons why I showed that list where it's like, no, there are so many other churches that they give women this. These. This power and position, whereas our. This one does not. And this other One is from Dr. Julie Hanks. We don't have to read the whole thing, but it's just really, really good. She talks about how she left the church and she became ordained to officiate in her daughter's wedding. And she said it was beautiful. And she says, we can't find that anywhere in the church. And she talks about how we can't even pray to Heavenly Mother. It's just really, really good. And she. She even made her own recent. I think yesterday or today, responding to all this, her own video. So I just wanted to share that one as well. And then this next one. Celeste, you want to read this next one? That's. That's comes from you?

Celeste Davis [00:36:51] Oh, yeah. Quote myself, it says, I used to cling to the crumbs I was handed as a woman in the church, that we have heavenly mother in our doctrine. But it took me all of one Sunday in one progressive church with a woman pastor to shake me and wake me up to the oppression I had lived with all my life as a woman in the CH Church. This woman was running her church. When she spoke, the men took notes. She was leading the board meetings on finances. She conducted the meetings. As soon as I encountered one other church, I quickly realized there is no religious organization that has so broadly taken power and authority away from women than the LDS Church.

Julia [00:37:29] Yeah, I love that where you just said taking power away from the women. Like, that's how like, as studying history, especially in the church, they very obviously have taken away this power from women. And I just love that you added that in there.

Celeste Davis [00:37:41] And if I could just. I've been thinking about this today how kind of maddening and like, crazy it is to read the comments on that post that do say, like, I don't see it. Like, I'm so equal. Like, I don't. I. I am happy woman in the church, and I feel just as equal to men and all of these things. And I used to be that way too, but now it's just kind of crazy to me that, like, if we liken the church to, like, living in a house, when you're in the house, your only point of comparison is the past of that house. And you're like, well, things are getting better now women can wear pants, and now women can, like, I don't know, witness baptisms or whatever. So you're like, no, what are you talking about? We're improving. We're progressing. But as soon as you step outside the house and look back, back, and you have a different point of comparison, it's wild how obvious it is. And that story, I do say that story on my Mormon story is how that was like, I couldn't go back to church after I went to even one other church because it was just so glaringly apparent that my only point of comparison had been the church. And I was just like, trying to eat up all these crumbs they were giving me. And then I had like one experience where I, like, I mean, I was so shaken, but the man next to me was taking notes when A woman pastor was preaching because I was like, this wouldn't happen, like, in my church. And it just shook me, like I couldn't go back anyway.

Julia [00:39:05] Yeah. After I left the church, we tried six other churches and at random, and every single one of them had a female pastor. And it was just mind boggling, like you said, because that doesn't happen in the Mormon church.

Guest 2 [00:39:17] Yeah.

Julia [00:39:19] So this next, if there's no other comments, this next slide, there's just a bunch of comments here. Someone says, what the. And someone says, y' all are going to be irrelevant pretty soon if you keep this up. And someone else said, I found my people in these comments. How amazing to see that I'm not alone. And I really like that one because there's just a lot of people resonating with each other. And then this last one says, thanks for making my decision to resign so much easier. And I feel like this is in this whole topic of women equality. Women's equality in the church is very, very big and the reason why so many step away.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:39:50] And it's really interesting how, and it's both heartbreaking and beautiful how these past few days have unfolded with all of these comments, because obviously it's. The statements themselves are devastating. And the way that the church is continually silencing women is really devastating and has caused so much harm to so many people. And it's also really powerful to see all these women, possibly for the first time, both in the church, out of the church, being able to make a statement online and like, with using their name and finding a sisterhood there. And in some ways, it seems that, I mean, the Relief Society has done a lot of good. And I'm not trying to pretend that it hasn't because there is a lot of power and beauty in the Relief Society, but that's just because of women coming together. That's not because of some magic God power that the church is pretending that the Relief Society has that other groups of sisters don't have. Because when you look on these comments, especially from people that are disaffected from the church or at least criticizing the church, that sense of sisterhood and community is, I think, as strong as what they're claiming that the early society is doing for women in the talk itself.

Julia [00:40:56] I love that. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. So this next one, this next comment comes from Sal Osborne. She was on Mormon Stories a while back and she's got her own documentary, which is amazing. But she says, after I left and had some time to sit with it, I could not believe I willingly took my young daughters there only to look at the stand to see men in suits and boys blessing and passing the sacrament, teaching them that their future is to have babies and take care of everything at home. While their husbands spend all their time with their careers, hobbies and church leadership roles. The most the girls could strive for is planning a great homemaking activity, always righteously putting themselves last on the priority list. Never again will I put them in a situation like that. And like that one stuck out to me just because even as a young woman's leader, that's what we did. We did. Like I taught the girls how to sew and how to iron clothes and how to set the table. Like that's all we do. And then the boys are over there like going on camping trips and going on like learning all these survival skills and things like that. So it's just, and even we've talked about this before where women are valued less in the church. Like the money amount that they put on women is lower than the boys and the men. So again, women are not. Women are not. Don't have any power or authority in that, in that way. Were there any other thoughts or whatever? So this next comment she, this one's from Rosie Card. She says, if we can skip to the slide, she says, actually, Sam, do you want to read this one or.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:30] Yeah. In the spirit of President Nelson's plea to the sisters, we need your voices. Please hear the women in the comments voices. This is simply not true, nor is it working to tell us this anymore. It's disrespectful and belittling. It's misleading and harmful. We need actions, not words.

Julia [00:42:47] I just really like the call to hear more voices. And I just think that's so applicable. I feel like that's the most important thing the church can take away from this, is to hear these women speak. And so this next one is we don't have to talk about this whole thing. But I really think this is really important because somebody, they're quoting how the church says, oh, there's, I think it was Renlund where he says, there's really the whole. On the matter of the Heavenly Mother, everything that we know about her has been published on the church's Gospel topics essays. And she says, actually, I think this is, this is very incorrect. She says, I have more than 600 single spaced pages gathered on quotes about Heavenly Mother. She's like, we know far more than they're saying to us. But they say that we can't pray to her. We can't talk about her or anything like that. And so just this whole idea of Heavenly Mother, but also the, the women's potential in the church for. Is to achieve the state of Heavenly Mother. And which to me says that we are just constantly having children and not ever talking to them or having relationships with them. And that's the destiny of every Mormon woman. And that's just really heartbreaking and, and it's not okay with me.

Heavenly Mother and Theological Gaps for Women

Samantha Shelley [00:43:55] I really appreciate that comment and love what it's saying. But even 600 pages of stuff about Heavenly Mother is nothing in this grand scheme of this religion where there's. I don't even know the number, but millions of pages about Heavenly Father and about men. Like even 600 pages is such small potatoes. But even that we're not being given.

Julia [00:44:17] Yeah, that's. Yeah, 600 pages is a good book. That's it. Whereas like you said, there's a whole library and libraries with everything about Heavenly Father or the men in the Church,

Samantha Shelley [00:44:28] which really shows the breadcrumbing, you know.

Julia [00:44:30] Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Celeste Davis [00:44:32] Yeah. Can I just speak to a minute about Heavenly Mother? I. I think it is so wild, the emphasis for the past 50 plus years that the brethren have tried so hard, the effort that they've put into silencing Heavenly Mother with like all of the many, many PR crises and meetings and finances and everything that they're doing that they would choose to emphasize over and over again, not to pray to her, not to speak about her. Like training their auxiliaries and leaderships to not have the word said in sacrament meeting is so wild that they would care so much. But there's this really great quote by Sonia Johnson, who was excommunicated in the 1980. I think. Can I read it really quick about why? Of course it's so good? Because it says, let's see. Because when we pray to Heavenly Mother, the very foundation of Mormonism, priesthood supremacy, is threatened. Her existence is dangerous to patriarchy. For which reason I should think the whole effort to keep her, keep the issue about her very quiet. The less people think about her, the less they will question her position, the church's position about her, the less, in short, they will question male rule. I like to imagine what would happen if Mormons really began believing in her and her equality with Father Polygamy, the all male priesthood, all aspect aspects of patriarchy would be in the deepest jeopardy.

Julia [00:45:54] Yeah, I love that. And like this, the whole idea of Heavenly Mother being a polygamist wife and like that's all she is destined for. And people will either realize that and, yeah, just realize how unequal she is. And yeah, Sonia Johnson is amazing. I love that.

Guest 2 [00:46:07] Yeah.

Temple Ceremony, Priesthood Power, and What Women Are Denied

Speaker H [00:46:07] Hey, guys, do you mind if I say one quick thing?

Guest [00:46:09] Sure.

Speaker H [00:46:11] Sorry, I have to make a cameo. No, I. I had never thought about this before, but, like, the temple ceremony is supposed to be the apex kind of Mormon ritual, and it's supposed to be received directly as revelation from God. And it's all about the creation. And yet we're told Mother in Heaven is like, co equal with God as a God and as a creator. And yet when you listen to the narrative of the temple ceremony and the creation, it's all Jehovah, Michael, Adam, you know, Peter, James, John. There's never once a mention of Mother in Heaven or mothers in Heaven, and there's no name given. And if she is a co God and a co Creator, then why is she completely absent from. And it's direct revelation from God. Why is she completely nameless and absent in Mormonism's most sacred ritual and ceremony of all? And now I'm disappearing.

Julia [00:47:14] Yeah. No, I love that. That's a good. That's a great question and a great thing to point out. Like, women are not part of the creation process. And so even watching that in the temple, like, women aren't necessary. Women are just not necessary. Even like with the church, you remove women out of the church, just all of them, the church can still function. The church can still do everything that it needs to. But if you remove the men, the whole thing falls apart. And the same with in the temple, like you, like you mentioned, John. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:47:38] Also such a slap in the face that women in the church are told their whole lives that a woman's primary job is to take care of children. Like, when a couple has children, women are the ones primarily responsible for their care. But for some reason, with us, the 8 billion of their children here on earth, it's God. Like the she. Maybe she's involved, but she's taken a backseat. Like, if that was truly a woman's divine, eternal role and gender is this eternal, unchanging thing, then wouldn't Heavenly Mother be the one that we pray to? Because isn't, you know, that that's her whole thing is looking after our kids and we're their kids. So why are we praying to him? Like, why isn't he off doing, I don't know, whatever corporate job Mormon God is doing?

Julia [00:48:22] I love it.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:48:23] Nurturing us, theoretically.

Julia [00:48:24] Yeah, yeah. Answering our prayers. Right, right. That's. That's an excellent point.

Celeste Davis [00:48:31] But I Love that they took the creation from us and gave it to Jesus and male God. When creating life is our thing, all life is created through women. Like, gave it to God and Jesus, like, took women out of it entirely. Like, they just created earth and life and everything, just with their own little male hands. I don't know.

Julia [00:48:51] Yeah. Alyssa, did you have something to say too?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:48:54] Yeah, I was just gonna say, just going back to what John was saying about women being co gods. I was told in the temple when I was getting married that I was going to be the help me. And I think that's like a pretty common phrasing that a lot of women are told, but that I was going to be joining my husband's kingdom. His kingdom already existed. And so my role as, as a co God was really just the person there to help him and make sure that he stayed on track. And so even I remember growing up thinking, oh, I can't wait to have my own planet. But even then, like, at the very end of the day, even when we get this amazing divine role in the celestial kingdom, like, it's still their kingdom in from a Mormon framing, and we're still just the, the women are just the ones who are there to help make sure that everything is running smoothly, but they're the ones that are still in charge.

Julia [00:49:45] Yeah, yeah. Even getting our own planet isn't even. Yeah, nothing.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:49:49] That's why I wanted to be here. It's because of the whole planet thing and it's all falling apart.

Speaker G [00:49:53] Yeah.

Julia [00:49:54] Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So again, these are more. There are more comments here. This next one, she's just basically pointing out that women just don't make any decisions for themselves. There. There's very little equality and very, very little visibility in the church. So we can go to this next one. Again, I don't want to, I don't want to bog everybody down by reading all these. They're just so good. And this person also says that this, this post and the sentiments behind it aren't just damaging to women, but to everyone. And I agree. I think patriarchy can hurt everybody, not just the women. And so, yeah, that's another great comment. And if you go to the next one, this one, I also really liked the family. They point out that the family proclamation was, was only signed by men. And she, she is postulating that women weren't involved in this. They probably weren't involved in this. But we, during the time that this happened in 1995, two of the counselors for the release society, they spoke out and they said that they were specifically not part of the family proclamation the creation of it. And they, they talked about how hurt they were because of that. And so yeah, so 100 there was. Women were not involved in this at all. And if the. For the next one. So women have no power and authority. It's. Everything's overseen by a man. So again just, they have. There's nothing that they can do without a man and we can just keep going. There's just these, there's so many comments like just, it just goes on and on and on. And this person also asks. This one asks a bunch of really good questions. They're like, why can't I wear pants? Or why can't I do these things? Or like why am I frowned upon when I do these things? Like if we're equal, why are we not. Why are we actually not equal? And things like that. And then just again, it just keeps going. Thank you for posting something that is so obviously untrue that so many. And anyway just so many good things. And yeah, again, I don't know if we need to go through all of these. Yeah. And then so I just wanted to point out. So we skip a little more unless you guys have other thoughts. The scripture plus she has her own TikTok. She works for the Book of Mormon Central, I think is what she works for. And she responded to this whole idea of, of looking at Sister Dennis's words in context and if we want to play her video we can respond to this idea that she has. It's a four minute clip. So. So yeah,

Talking Past Each Other: Core Disagreements Unpacked

Speaker I [00:52:12] here's my actual take on this post from the Church. After going through so many of the 13,000 comments, I think we might be talking past each other in a pretty big way that's hindering our ability to effectively dialogue about women and priesthood power. The Church made this post quoting from the Worldwide Relief Society Devotional where Sister Annette Dennis, the first counselor in the Relief Society presidency, spoke about women and priesthood power. And she said this. I think the key word we need to focus on here is broadly. The responses to this post have ranged all over the map with a lot of emotion on both polls. Positive, negative, everything in between. And a lot of the concerned commenters were saying things like this is not true because other churches ordain their women to the priesthood, or this isn't true because men make all the decisions in our church, or this isn't true because I personally don't feel empowered by the church. All of these kinds of assertions might very well be true. But even if so, I don't believe they are accurately representing or responding to Sister Dennis's claim. She is not saying that other churches don't ordain women, nor is she saying that women have never had bad experiences in our church. I think she's making a very specific claim that I personally felt came across very clearly in the context of her full talk. And I think a lot of people might be missing that context in their impulse to be reactive. And certainly this is a sensitive topic for a lot of members, so it can be easy to want to respond and react in combative ways. But I'm inclined to let this woman's full voice be heard and not just the social media sound bites. When Sister Dennis said that power and authority is given so broadly, she's referring to the scale at which women receive power from God in our church in comparison to other faiths, and she qualified this statement by explaining exactly what she means later on in her talk. You can pause if you want to read all of this and I'm going to link the transcript of her full talk in my Instagram bio and story. But she basically said that there are religions that ordain some women to possess positions such as priests and pastors, but it's relatively few in comparison to the number of women in their congregation. Whereas in our church, all women who make covenants in the temple are endowed with priesthood power directly from God. So what she's not doing, she's not making the claim that women in our church can attain the highest office in the ecclesiastical priesthood. She's not claiming that other churches don't have different hierarchies and structures where women serve in varying roles of the clergy. What she's saying is that while other churches may give ecclesiastical authority to select women, our church gives the actual power of God, the true priesthood, to all women who worthily make sacred covenants. And that's a lot of power. She's not talking about social structuring of power or dominion over other people. She's talking about honest to goodness might of an all powerful God who has command over the elements, the spirits, healing, even death itself. And in the temple we learn that it's this kind of priesthood, the patriarchal order of the priesthood that leads to exaltation and glory, not necessarily the organizational or ecclesiastical order of the priesthood. And God invests this kind of power and authority into his covenant children, both his sons and his daughters. I think it is beautiful and I agree with Sister Dennis that it is vast in scale, but women's priesthood Power also has implications for the organizational functioning of the church.

Julia [00:55:31] Wait, did you guys have any initial thoughts?

Speaker H [00:55:33] Can I just ask a question? Who are endowed? I'll finish the clip in just a second. How many of you were endowed? Not Samantha, right. Oh, all of you. Did you guys feel superhuman superpowers the minute you went through the temple? Were you able to like change the weather and move mountains? I'm just curious if you. She's over dramatizing the power a little bit. I just have to ask that.

Julia [00:55:58] Yeah. And she talked about raising the dead.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:56:00] I only raised one dead person. Honestly.

Julia [00:56:06] Yeah, no, absolutely. I don't think, I think we can all agree that we did not feel that. Like she talks about us using or about women using the priesthood. What does that mean? Like, like we can pray, we can. Like I, I served a mission. Like, I didn't see myself as using the priesthood. I couldn't even baptize the people that I helped teach. Like, anyway, yeah, I feel like I

Celeste Davis [00:56:29] keep coming back to. I maybe felt like, you know, I had my hands laid on my head to give me power when I was set apart for callings. But then so often, like when I was in the primary presidency multiple times, and every time we would use our God given power to pray for who our counselors should be, who our new teachers should be, it meant nothing. The men would veto us every time. They never gave us who we wanted. We always got the bottom of the scrap pile for like who we were going to have as primary teachers. Even though we would take our power seriously, we'd be like, well, okay, we have this power to discern who should be in these callings. And still the men got to be like, nah, mine's more important now. You don't get those people. I don't know.

Julia [00:57:12] Oh, that's so awful. That's awful.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:16] How much did all of us used to hear that little thing people love to say about how a 12 year old boy has more power in his little finger than the Pope. So in this, no disrespect to the woman in that video, I feel like that's the most intelligent mental gymnastics you could feasibly do for this. But I feel like she's completely lost in the source. Like you can't, you can't talk about power without talking about social structuring. So for her to just completely remove all of that and just make it so abstract, it's like, well, when we talk about it in the abstract, we say a 12 year old boy has more power in his little Foot. We don't say like, you know, a 12 year old member of this church has more power. We say a 12 year old boy. So it's just like, yeah, it's, they're trying to have a cake and eat it too. And yeah, it's just delusional.

Julia [00:58:03] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:58:03] And it's insulting frankly.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:58:06] And it really feels like a strawman argument of what the actual issue is and what, what women in the church and out of the church are actually arguing about. I mean most women that I know that are upset about the discrepancies of gender within the Mormon church aren't talking about the God power. You know, I, you know, a lot of people might not believe in the priesthood anymore. That's not the real issue. Right. It's like how is this system working for these individual people who's in the room when decisions are being made? So to make this really vague statement about, you know, which I understand what she's saying and I understand, yeah like she fully believes in, in the power of the priesthood. And I think that while she can enjoy that it's missing the actual argument that is that the thousands and thousands of people are commenting about. So it feels like it's just completely misdirecting. And regardless, even also, I guess I'll add to her big argument was that the commenters were missing Sister Dennis's point. And okay, perhaps Sister Dennis, okay, and maybe in her minds, or maybe realistically Sister Dennis is talking about the priesthood power in this very abstract way of God's power is higher than any other power, more powerful than any other religion, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, but now we're talking about something more real, more tangible. Now the comments use Sister Dennis's statement as a bouncing off point. To talk about inequality within the church is so much less about Sister Dennis's statement and more about all of this lived experience. And I think that people have to actually respond to what this conversation that was facilitated here. It's not, we're not trying to get in the little semantics of what priesthood means. That's, that's irrelevant, I think.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:45] Yes, and it's such a classic high control group tactic to just redefine words endlessly so that you can just out semantics the issues. And that's all that's happening here.

Celeste Davis [00:59:57] Yeah, it's really insulting and really dismissive to try to paint like something as silly as social structure or hierarchical. Oh, that's so like who cares? We are in the most powerful, we have the most powerful power, God power. So who cares about Something so silly as, like, social structure and like, hierarchies. That would be like saying, like, if it was a company and female employees were like, hey, why can't we be the boss? Why can't we be the managers? Why can't we be the CEO and be like, oh, who cares about that? Who cares?

Julia [01:00:28] Who would want to be a CEO

Celeste Davis [01:00:29] and a manager and a boss? You are in the most important, powerful company in the world. Therefore, by proxy, you have lots of power.

Julia [01:00:40] So it's so true.

Samantha Shelley [01:00:42] Like Mindy Gladhill's comment about the superiority complex and the grandiosity of it all, because it's literally like being. They're basically saying we don't have to give men and women equal rights because we're so important. We transcend the need for that.

Julia [01:00:56] Yes, yes, exactly. John, actually, can you go, can you go back one slide? I don't want to, I don't want to pass this comment up. Just one more. Okay. Samantha, do you mind reading this one? This is my favorite comment of all the ones that were left.

Deleted Comments and the Church's Response

Samantha Shelley [01:01:10] Yes, my husband and I have the exact same power and authority, with the only difference being I can't bless, heal, lead men and women, make decisions for my calling without getting it approved by a man, baptize, call my own counselors, pass the sacrament, conduct general meetings, sit on the stand, marry in the temple again if my first spouse dies or leaves, speak lost in church or talk about heavenly mother or the God figure I'm supposed to be like when I die. I mean, other than that, man and woman's power and authority is exactly the same. No notes, no problems. Just a perfectly equal, forward thinking, empowering organization. For sure. We've done it, ladies. We've achieved quality equality at last.

Julia [01:01:46] I just really like that. It's just funny to me where she's just very obviously like, oh, we're totally the same. Like, we've reached equality.

Guest 2 [01:01:52] And.

Julia [01:01:52] Yeah, yeah, okay. So after all this came, after all this was happening, the church. So on Wednesday, so just this last Wednesday, comments began disappearing from the, from that Instagram post. And so a lot of people were saying, oh, they were deleting these comments. But then the church made this, this, the picture in blue, the church made that statement where that says, thank you for making us aware that not all comments are visible. It appears to be a platform wide issue. And so, but before that, before they realized that it was a platform wide issue, so many women, and there's just hundreds and hundreds of them, probably thousands of women being hurt because their words were being deleted. And so here you have Julie Hanks where she says the pain of thousands of women deleted just like that. Seriously more proof of the problem of inequality. Tragic. And so then the church gives that same response which they responded to most everybody when they said thank you for making us aware that not all comments are showing up. So the church is just saying, hey, there's just a glitch here in, in all of this. And I also wanted to point out this other comment. I, so I, I went through all the comments to try to find these screenshots and very few of them were, were active members of the church or at least very few of them were in favor of what was being said. And there's. So there's one comment that that was in favor and I just wanted to read that just for, just to have it on the record, I guess where she says, and I don't know, the person is sort of doesn't have a name, but you can see her username. She says to everyone thinking that they are deleting comments. That is not true. Other posts have most comments deleted as well. It is an actual issue within the system. I'm saddened by the amount of hate and unkindness that is being thrown at the church. I know of no other church that allows women so many rights and promises so much love. People have agency and can make mistakes, but God, the head of this church does not. If a mortal man in a position of power makes a mistake, it has happened to me that is against the church rules. That is their agency. The church puts up many items for, of protection for women. And as they commented above, they will share, they will share said issues with leaders. I know this church is true. I know that there is so much anger against it due to the fact that I know I will get hateful replies. May God bless you. And so I just want to share that just to have it on the record. And did you guys have any thoughts about this idea of there's so much love and there's so much rights that the church gives them?

Samantha Shelley [01:04:14] I mean even if the church wasn't deleting comments, even if, let's just say that we all got the wrong idea about that and it's a platform wide issue, it's kind of irrelevant because there's massive precedent for the church doing that. You know, like Kate Kelly got excommunicated for trying to all day. Like so many women have been excommunicated or silenced by the church in the past and even that is, is in the modern era. I mean, if we go back to, you know, Brigham's time where he's literally, like, literally, don't leave your homes and gather with other women, it's even worse. It's a church founded on the coercion of women and children.

Julia [01:04:48] So to me, I'm like, I honestly

Samantha Shelley [01:04:49] don't care either way whether the church was deleting comments. The precedent is there regardless. The equality issues are there regardless. So, like, we can choose to focus on, like, did they, didn't they? But it's, like, completely valid that people would think that they did even if they didn't, you know?

Julia [01:05:06] Yeah. Alyssa, did you have any other thoughts?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:05:08] Yeah, I was just gonna say, just based on her comment that she feels that she's feeling really equal in the church. I feel like it goes back to the concept, and I'm sure we've talked about this earlier, but the concept of, like, a domestic angel or benevolent sexism, which I think is really where women in the church and women in the church are upholding these patriarchal systems. And, you know, Nelson talking about how women are at the center of everything, and they're so powerful, they're so amazing. They can be mothers. They don't even need the priesthood. They don't even need to leave their house, actually, or talk to anybody else. And I think it's just this way of just twist, just changing the argument so that it makes us feel like, oh, well, I should feel special. I shouldn't complain, because they're saying these nice things with one hand, and then the other hand they're taking away power, but they're doing it with a smile. And so you may. It makes people feel crazy, I think.

Julia [01:06:04] Thank you. Celeste, did you have any other thoughts?

Celeste Davis [01:06:06] Just echoing that as. Yeah, a great point about the benevolence of it.

Julia [01:06:12] Yeah. One thing that I also. That caught my attention where she says that I know no other church that allows women so many rights during. It just made me think of during the 1870s or the 1970s. Excuse me, during the rise of the era, the church funded and pushed so hard against the church, the country getting. Giving equal rights to women. And so, like, I don't. That's just not reflective of reality of the church giving women so many rights. And anyway, I just. Just thought that was interesting. Yeah. So. So the. Of course, the Salt Lake Tribune published this article. The LDS Church responds to the firestorm over the speech. And they also pointed to one thing that I did think was interesting. It says the church declined Wednesday to respond to the Salt Lake Tribune's question about which leaders would. Would be presented with the comments, as well as what kind of response their authors might expect from them. So we. They just. The church was just quiet on that. They didn't have anything to say. And then the article points out that there was a glitch in the system. And if we go to the next slide, it pulls a quote from Andy Stone, who is the communications. The head of communications for Meta. And just as a side comment for Meta has Instagram and I think Facebook or Twitter. I mean, and the church has $1.1 billion invested in Meta. In Meta. Just throwing that out there. So Andy Stone, this was he. His comment was published on March 5, so that was still a few weeks ago. And he says, we are aware people are having trouble accessing our services. We are working on this now. And then the solitary pointed to that, saying, oh, this is why those comments were missing. And then this is just this next one. Yeah, if you just slide. Yeah, I just wanted to share this one too, because I just think it's also important. It's quoting somebody else. How glid. It says the fact that women's priesthood power is exercised exclusively with the permission of the. And at the direction of men who hold the priesthood office feels constraining and disempowering to many. And I just thought that was also really important that even what little the church says that we have, we can't actually use it, like, without a man's permission. Like you were saying, Celeste, where it's. Everything goes through a man.

Guest [01:08:10] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:08:11] And even if they were ever to start ordaining women, still, whose priesthood is it? It's Melchizedek's. It's Aaron's. It's from the laying out of hands of Peter, James and John through Joseph Smith, through men. Men. Men, Men, Men. It's men all the way down. It's men all the way up. And then through a male God. Like, it's just. It would still be so much patriarchy that even if they ever did ordain women, it's still man's power.

Speaker G [01:08:34] Mm.

Julia [01:08:35] Yeah, that's very true.

Guest [01:08:37] Yeah.

Julia [01:08:38] Um, so okay, if we go to. Yeah, so. So. And this is the one that was published earlier today, the New York Times, that they said this was really interesting to me. It says a spokesman for Meta, which owns Instagram, said that there was no issue that had affected comments. So I don't know. They're not giving a. They're not giving any other source outside of that, but they're saying that they Talked to somebody from Meta who said that there was no glitch with the comments. And so like we're getting two different stories here from Andy Stone saying this two weeks ago or two and a half weeks ago, whereas the New York Times said that there was no glitch. Again, I don't know the fact that the comments are still there, like you can still see them. I don't know if that's a thing Instagram can do is to un. Delete or un. Whatever, like get them back. So that's, that was interesting to me when I was doing this research yesterday or on Wednesday, I took a video, took a screen video and we can show it. But like I just noticed if you just looking through all of the other comments were showing up on the churches. See here that there's no, you can see that there's no comments at the top one. But all the other comments below it are showing up. And so it seems odd to me that they're saying it's a comment, like it's a glitch in the comments. It looks to me like the New York. New York Times is correct and that, that there's no glitch with the comments. So again, I don't know if we can know one way or the other. But yeah, and like you said, I was a use Samantha who said it doesn't make, it doesn't really make a difference that they're deleting comments because they've like silenced women in the past. And so. Yeah, yeah. So there's one final clip. Oh, hang on there. So Cesar Johnson did make a statement. She, this was from an email given to somebody for the New York Times. She says we are collecting and reading the comments on all the posts and appreciate knowing these hurt, these heartfelt messages, concerns, thoughts and experiences. And one thing that I wanted to point out is she's saying that they just, they just read all of them. So she's not even really pointing to that one specifically and the, how troubling that was to women. She's just saying, just overall we, we read them and we appreciate all these. So yeah, that was interesting to me. Any other comments that would be infuriating

Celeste Davis [01:10:48] to me if the church is getting all these comments and then gave it to the women to read.

Julia [01:10:53] Yeah, it says they said leaders who are over these issues. So it's like they're not even going to tell you who it could even just be the sisters who literally can't do anything about it because they're women.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:11:04] I just, I just want to say, just, I think that, like, just the fact that this story has made it to the New York Times is exciting. And I think in a lot of ways, that's the most power that women in the church have had for a long time. Just by commenting that that has made it up the ranks to the New York Times, I think is some of the most empowered that Mormon women have been. So that's a positive side and heartbreaking at the same time.

Julia [01:11:30] Yeah, I was just thinking, like I mentioned, I said earlier, that if you take women out of the church, the church could still function. And I guess I meant that in an organizational way, but I really think in reality, if all the women were to stop going to church, the church wouldn't function, like, because women do so much and they carry so much weight. So I guess that I just wanted to point that difference out is that women actually do so much. They just don't have that. That badge of honor priesthood.

Speaker I [01:11:57] Yeah.

Key Devotional Statements Revisited and Critiqued

Julia [01:11:58] Okay. So I wanted to. So Sister. Oh, excuse me. Yeah, this is Sister Johnson. So she made a statement in the devotional, and I wanted to share it again. In this context of what we're talking about now in, in these women's issues,

Guest 2 [01:12:15] We evaluate needs globally, and then we seek to satisfy those needs one by one, just as the Savior did. The Savior ministered to the one woman at the well. He healed the one daughter of Jairus. He blessed the Nephite children. One by one, he loves us. One by one, he will bring his relief to others. One by one.

Julia [01:12:43] Yeah, I just wanted to share that because she's saying that we look at these. We look at what, what's needed, and we help these women one by one. And like, there are, like, if you go to this last slide, this is my most recent screenshot where it's today, there are nearly 15,000 comments. And that might be there. It might be there already, but there are 15,000 voices that need to be heard and that need to be. To be looked at. And there's. They need this. This aid or this ministry. And so I just wanted to leave that clip, like, leave her final thoughts with us to be like, I guess ask the church to. To pay attention to the women who are struggling. Do you guys have closing thoughts before we. Before we finish out?

Samantha Shelley [01:13:23] I mean, it is kind of sad that we're having to be like, please listen to the voices of women when, to quote Stephanie Brinkhoff, who talked about this on Instagram, she's Stephanie Ann again. She was saying, like, a woman's power is not given to her by anything external. You know, it's within us. And that's why the church has systematically, throughout history, like, had to curtail women's power by telling them, you know, don't meet or you can no longer do these things. You know, they've had to make these like, very conscious efforts to squash women down. And so as much as I, you know, it's, it's kind of up for debate whether like, giving women more representation and power within a patriarchal organization is good or bad. Like, I don't know if I can answer that question, but I just feel like women need to claim their power themselves and stop looking to this patriarchal male led organization that is patriarchal by doctrine. Like you. There's no escaping it. You know, it just feels like it makes me feel a little bit icky that we're all just like, please, will you listen to us? When like, you don't need these guys. I know it's like easier said than done because that's your village and people have heartfelt faith in it.

Celeste Davis [01:14:36] But yeah, I, I agree wholeheartedly, Samantha. I feel like I was like, just for me personally reading all these comments this week, of those 15,000, I was just like giggling and kicking my feet. Not because I think the church is going to change. I don't think the church is going to change. Like, what's the best case scenario out of this? That maybe the brethren read some of these comments, which I'm sure they already know. They are surveying the church, they're sending out surveys every year. Women have been saying this for decades. Like, best case scenario, what? Maybe they get to hold their own baby while they're blessing their baby. Like, best case scenario, they get to see sit on the stand that's dominated by men. Like, that's what we're at. It's, it's crazy, right? So I'm not kicking my feet and giggling because I think the church is going to change. I don't think it is. And I don't think that should be the metric of success or the goal here at all because I think that's a waste of time and energy. Just like you said, Sam, it's demeaning, it's insulting to beg and plead and please listen and please let us hold our own baby, all of that. But I do think it's a massive success for women's voices to be heard, even just to each other, even just to herself. For I'm thinking of the woman who's going to church, who maybe for the first time is speaking out against it in this comment section. That, to me, is a huge success. Just to hear her own voice, to hear her, to see her own experiences validated, to feel understood in that comment section and to hopefully breadcrumb her to her own power, to empower herself, to stop begging and pleading for crumbs, that, to me, would be a massive success. And I think anytime we can gather together and hear each other feel seen and heard, step into her own power, that's what I think is exciting about this.

Speaker G [01:16:22] Effy.

Samantha Shelley [01:16:22] Yeah, a woman like, learning to use her voice is an actual tangible form of power that she is claiming for herself that was always within her. The most the church is realistically going to do in response to this situation. Even the best case scenario we can dream of is still pathetic.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:16:39] Yes.

Julia [01:16:41] Yeah. Alyssa, what are your final thoughts?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:16:44] Yeah, I mean, first of all, similarly to what everyone has been saying so far, I think this has just been really great. And yeah, I think that there's something really powerful about women feeling like they have the ability to start that deconstruction process of unraveling themselves from this patriarchal system. And the thing that's also frustrating is, yeah, even when they leave the church, if they do choose to leave the church, there's still so much patriarchal unraveling to do within the larger systems that we have. Especially if you've spent years within the church, if you're living in the United States. This is something that covers so much more than just this one devotional or this one Instagram post. And I think in some ways it's both liberating to see all these things and also just really exhausting and overwhelming to know that just how much of an uphill battle there is. And it's. It's frustrating.

Julia [01:17:37] One of the biggest things that I noticed about the comments for this post is they didn't seem to be asking for anything. They just wanted, like, just honesty. Like, hey, just, just recognize that we don't actually have power and authority. Just recognize that. I don't even, I don't think women were calling for the priesthood. Like, Even with Julie, Dr. Julie Hanks, she said, just let us. Can you. I think she just asked for two things. She was like, let us pray. And like, be honest about everything. Like, just let us pray to Heavenly Mother. Excuse me. Anyways, just like, they're just, we're just asking for so little. But like you said, you guys said there's what really even the best of the church can give is still a pathetic gift or a thing that they can give, like, anyways. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:18:16] And I think when you spend your whole lifetime conditioned by patriarchy, I feel like a lot of even maybe the more feminist women in the LDS Church still can't even grasp the power that is within them because they've been so blind to it their whole lives. And, like, even the, you know, like, language is one way that high control groups will limit what we're able to conceptualize. And so never bringing up Heavenly Mother is just, like, one example of that. But it. But the scope is just massive of, like, what women are not able to, like, see as available to them yet. Because. Yeah. As Alyssa just said, like, there's so much unlearning that has to happen from patriarchy.

Julia [01:18:59] Yeah. Yeah. So there's that comment that John had shared where.

Guest 2 [01:19:03] Right here.

Julia [01:19:04] Yeah. Why are you giving your power to men? And so I think I feel for the women who are in the church where they. They believe very fully that this priesthood was restored through Joseph Smith, through Peter, James, and John, and that that is the power of God. And they're. They're just stuck. I feel like women in the church who have this set mindset or this belief are just stuck. There's nothing that they can do. And so, like we mentioned earlier, if going. Stepping outside the church and seeing that women do have power elsewhere or even just. Just within themselves or outside of the church, there's. There's so much beauty and power outside. But when you're. When you're in the church with that belief, you're just sort of stuck. Does anyone else have answers to this? On why on this comment?

Women Blessing Families and the Question of Male God

Samantha Shelley [01:19:44] I like the energy of being like, I'm gonna give my kids blessings regardless of what these dudes are saying. But you are still using an abstract or conceptual power that is still given by a man, even if he's, you know, a abstract man above us who, you know, like God, that's still a male figure that you're outsourcing your power to or getting it from, which, like, that's one of the. That's like an example of one of the things that is, like, so deep to unravel is, like, most of us in the societies we were raised in, like, just our most basic conception of God is as male, which I just think we got to go beyond that.

Guest 2 [01:20:26] Yeah.

Potential Consequences for Women Who Spoke Out

Julia [01:20:29] Okay, so there's another one here. So this is Nadine again. Nadine Hansen. It will be interesting to see if women who made negative comments will be called into. See their priesthood leaders. Yeah, that's. Yeah. People have joked that The, The. The leaders who are in charge of these issues are the. What is it called?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:20:46] The.

Julia [01:20:47] The committee. What is that committee called? Yeah, Strengthening Church Members Committee. I also wanted to make this comment. I just remembered it. So someone had pointed out to me that. That they just recently, I can't remember how recently they changed the words a relief society sister, or excuse me, visiting teacher to minister. And somebody said that. I wonder if that was in response to this idea that women can be ministers, because normally minister is a title that's that other religions have for. For like, almost like a bishop. Anyway. So now they can brag that they have 8,000 ministers who are women. Anyway, so I just thought that was interesting. Yeah, great deal, right? Yeah, exactly. I just wanted to say. Oh, sorry.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:21:29] Okay. Something about the comment that Samantha was responding to a minute ago from. From the woman who said that she's blessing her own children, which I. I agree. I think that's amazing. I love the ability to say, like, I'm going to, like, take back my power myself. But I think a big part of it is for so many people, especially people who either raised within the church or who were converts later based on whatever situations led them to that feeling, like the best choice. But regardless, once you're in the church, it's not even that you're giving the power to someone, it's that it's being taken from you. And I think that is part of what is so difficult as far as existing as a woman within the church. And as far as that unraveling goes is it was almost. It was. It's always been there. Like Sam was saying a while back, it's always inherent part of every human being, but it almost never even felt like it was. And so I think that for so many people that are choosing to remain in the church is not even an active choice of, like, I agree that this man has more authority over me. It's that I never had this and has been taken from me. And not only is it taken from you as a little girl who is not able to pass a sacrament with her friends and brothers that are, you know, her same age, but then you go through the temple and you know, you're veiling your face and you get married and you're having to hearken unto your husband. Like, there are so many systemic ways throughout the church from the very, very beginning when you're blessed that you'll one day get married in the temple to a man until you're a mother, which is the ultimate goal. And you're told to stay at home. And that's the ultimate dream and that you should sacrifice yourself for everything. There's these rituals along the way for women where it's always a way of taking. And it's almost seemed as it's always positioned as this really beautiful moment is these special times when you're able to go get into young women's and then you're able to like, be. Anyway, these things are just taken over and over and over again. And I think that by the time you're an adult or you've been within the church for so long, like what. What are you going. How you don't even know where it is, right? You don't even know where your power is anymore, do you able to refind it? And I think that now so many women are feeling stuck. Even after you leave the church, even after you've been out of the church for 10 years, there's still so much of that patriarchal system that's there and just being used to listening to men's opinions over your own. And you can't basically, I guess I'm like really going off the rails here. But you can't just say at one point, oh, I want to have my own authority and my own power. Now when you've been conditioned like this for a lifetime, even after you leave, you can't just stop and it doesn't just go away. You can't. You don't just start into it.

Celeste Davis [01:24:02] So that's a great point, Alyssa. I was actually going to comment on something similar, but you worded it so well. I was thinking the same thing when she said, like, why don't you just bless yourself? I do it. Why don't you just bless your kid? Why don't you just claim your power and why don't you just do things your way? That's a lot easier said than done. Especially as you said, Lysa, given your lifelong conditioning and also very explicit messaging in the church that you are not allowed to and that that is inappropriate and that that is a dangerous thing for you to do. But like I. So I have a spiritual direction practice where I meet with people all over the faith crisis transition spectrum and my clients who are still in the church, who are wanting to stay in the church for their marriage or for whatever, and are setting off on the course to be like, I'm going to do Mormonism my own way and I am going to claim my own power. They week after week have just a million barricades to work through to. They want to, but List that church, they just like bowled over by. You can't do this. You have to be afraid of this. Are you creating God in your image? Are you doing this? There's so much fear. There's so much social pressure to conform every single week. It's way easier said than done to just do Mormonism your way or just claim your own authority as a woman in the church. There's a million little barricades and social norms that you have to violate and make people scared for you and make your parents scared for you. And it's just like walking up current. It's very difficult.

Speaker G [01:25:31] Yeah.

Julia [01:25:31] And then, and then taking that for yourself, there's. Taking the power for yourself. The church leaders can just cut you out of the church. Like there's. So it's risky to, to do that. So, yeah, I think you. I don't know that there's a safe. I don't know that there's a safe place to, for women to have power or to take their power in the church. I don't, I don't know if that exists, which is really awful. But anyway, so I just wanted to remind everybody that on Monday we're going to continue kind of do this, part two of the. Of responding to this in a. In other. In a deeper way. But before that, I also wanted to. Oh, here John Smith says, I would love to see more of these women only panels and Mormon stories. It's excellent to hear so many strong women speak up. I agree. I think that's great. So, yeah, so join us for Monday and thank you, Julie. 70 plus women who grabbed my women power. Yeah, so, yeah, so. So join us on Monday as we talk about this for part two. And before we close out though, I wanted to give everybody a chance to plug in their, their platforms or whatever you guys want to talk about? Alyssa, do you want to. You have your TikTok?

Closing Thoughts and Where to Follow the Hosts

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:26:34] Yeah, yeah. You can follow me on TikTok. I'm at. Liz likes words for as long as TikTok will exist. You can also follow me on Instagram at. Alyssa Whitbeck. What I'm the most proud of is I, I write essays, so I just had an essay published in Mayday magazine. It's an essay called Freeing Lucy that also talks about polygamy and women's history and women's positions within the church. So that feels somewhat relevant to this conversation. So check that out. That's the stuff that I put my most heart into. So go ahead and check those things out.

Julia [01:27:06] Thanks. Perfect.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:27:08] Yeah.

Julia [01:27:08] Samantha, do you want to Plug your stuff for Z on the Shelf.

Samantha Shelley [01:27:12] Yeah, I'm on every platform as Zel on the Shelf. I'm also a faith transitions coach, so you can find me through my personal Instagram or something if you're interested in that, at the. The Sam's Bay.

Julia [01:27:23] Perfect, thank you. And Celeste, do you have your own social media stuff you want to plug?

Celeste Davis [01:27:27] Yeah, I just want to say, Alyssa, I read that article. It was really good. Yeah, I didn't know that was you. Let's see, I'm at Celeste M. Davis on Instagram, on Substack, and my website is celestemdavis.com and I also have a article relevant to this conversation called the Never Ending Story of Mormon Feminism, about how each awakening cohort of Mormon feminists think they're the first one because our history is always continuously erased, but that the church has a 200 year history of shutting down women's movements and each like you're not alone to wake up to heavenly mother and to wanting more power and to wanting your voice be heard. There's such a long history in the church of women rising up and doing that and being excommunicated or just shut up. And we just don't know their names. We don't know about them because they leave the church and we're never told about them. So that essay is all about them and about that kind of historical pattern.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:28:25] Perfect.

Julia [01:28:25] I'm excited to read all those things that you guys talked about. That's really, really cool. So thank you guys for joining us. Join us on Monday when we talk about this for part two. So, yeah, everybody take care.

Samantha Shelley [01:28:36] Yeah, thanks for having us.

Julia [01:28:39] This is so nice.

Speaker G [01:28:40] Yeah.

Julia [01:28:41] Bye everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.