Introduction and Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is April 14, 2021, and today I am super excited to have back in studio Shannon Flynn. Many of you know the story of bomber and forger Mark Hoffman. It was recently covered in the Netflix three part documentary series called Murder among the Mormons. And many would say kind of the star of that documentary was Shannon Flynn. Shannon Flynn was, I would say he knew Mark Hoffman. I'd say he was business associates with Mark Hoffman. And I would say on some level he was a friend of Mark Hoffman, although we'll let him speak for himself.

John Dehlin [00:00:44] But yesterday we did a good four hours with him and focusing mostly on honoring and remembering another mutual friend, colleague, associate, who, which was Lynn Jacobs. Today we are just going to dig into Shannon's life and mostly we're going to spend some time just remembering and reflecting on Shannon's memories and reflections of, of bomber and forger Mark Hoffman and his involvement. So we are, we're going to just jump to the questions because there's so many. So, Shannon Flynn, welcome back to Mormon Stories.

Shannon Flynn [00:01:22] Thank you for having me back. It's actually April 14th.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] Well, what did I say?

Shannon Flynn [00:01:26] April 12th.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] April 14th. Thank you. Thank you. We want accuracy in this. Okay, Shannon, really quickly, let's start just with a very brief background. Tell us, just spend a minute kind of telling us where you were born, where you were raised and what got you into Mormon history and Mormon documents.

Shannon Flynn's Background and Mormon Faith

Shannon Flynn [00:01:46] Sure. I was born and raised here in Salt Lake City out on the, mainly we moved out to where my parents lived all the time in 1961. So from then on it was out in Taylorsville, went to elementary school, junior high out there and then took a bus and got to go to Cottonwood High School and had a great experience there. It was a tremendous school for me and what I wanted in those days.

Shannon Flynn [00:02:21] Went on a mission to Brazil, 77 to 79. And while I was there, I began to really take an interest in LDS Church history and doctrine, carried books with me. And then when I came home, I continued that interest.

Shannon Flynn [00:02:41] In 1983, approximately, I met my wife Robin, and she lived in the Rose park area. And it was through her that I met Lynne Jacobs, and then it was through Lynn Jacobs that I met Mark Hoffman. And so it was at that time that it went from just a real interest to really do a lot with it, collecting, reading, all that sort of stuff. And so that was kind of my, my path.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] Okay, talk just quickly about kind of your upbringing as it relates to what type of faith, traditional Mormon faith or not. Did you serve a mission? And prior to meeting Lynn Jacobs and Mark Hoffman, kind of. How aware were you of kind of difficult Mormon history, problematic Mormon history, truth claims kind of stuff? How educated were you about the types of things Mark would end up creating forgeries about?

Shannon Flynn [00:03:47] Well, as I said, I took up that interest a lot while I was on a mission. And then as time went on in 82, 83, 84, then I became very aware of the depth and I'm trying to think of the right words.

Shannon Flynn [00:04:10] I didn't look at it as this is all problems and I'm leaving. I have never, ever had the idea that I'm going to leave the church, ever. Not till today, April 14, 2021. I still do not do that. I'm. I'm active and in the church and always have been. Now I have been treated badly by the church and still am.

Shannon Flynn [00:04:37] And so that is just some of the things that I've had to learn how to live with. During the Hoffman, just after the Hoffman bombings, I went to the church history department, which I was very used to going to, that put up a security screen and they wouldn't let me in. And so they just had me sit and that security screen had only been up maybe a month if that. They had a church security guy come down and he told me in short terms that I would not be allowed in and that I had been declared a Persona non. Greta, I am still that today.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] I'm sorry about that.

Shannon Flynn [00:05:24] I. If I go to the church, you know, square, I cannot go anywhere that passes the security. I'm still, I'm on their security thing. A red light goes off, a sound goes off. Security comes and wants to know why I'm there.

Shannon Flynn [00:05:45] I, I never really frequented that thing, though, in the early 90s. I tried several times and was turned down by general authorities twice in those times. And then I just forgot about it. And then five or six years ago, I went to meet somebody close friend that works in or did work in the missionary department, Neil, field representative. And he said, come and we'll go in and you can meet people there, the general authority and all that.

Shannon Flynn [00:06:21] That's great. Now, I didn't say anything to him, but I thought, let's see if the elephant has forgotten. Man, the elephant has not forgotten. They had me not pinned, but kind of pinned against a wall. And then my friend came down, it's like two minutes, and he said, think I've got a call. What is going on? What's the matter? And I said, look, let's just get the hell out of here. Let's just walk out of the building because this is not good and it's not going to get better.

Shannon Flynn [00:06:54] So that's still my situation. If I can go, I can go and hold my temple recommend as my ID and they'll still kick me out.

John Dehlin [00:07:03] I'm sorry, before you met with Mark, let's just say some of the issues that really face Mormons today. You know, Joseph Smith's polygamy, the polyandry, the Joseph Smith's use of a peep stone in a hat, the Mason Mormon Mason temple connection, the Book of Abraham problems, Book of Mormon historicity, all these sorts of things that would plague a Mormon today. Would you have been aware of all those types of issues prior to meeting Mark, prior to kind of 1983? Were those issues that you knew about and had thought about or not really?

Shannon Flynn [00:07:43] Well, yes. And then no. Yes and yes, I'm aware of all. I was aware of all that stuff. No, no. Because I have spent the last 36 years continuing to study. My library at home is massive. I did account one day of all the stuff I have read. I mean, I've got pictures of the. It's like the pictures behind you, except there's over 4,000 volumes and this isn't a movie. I've read them all. So knew a fair amount of it then, but not near what I have now. So I was still in my, my, my learning now I was trying to be in business by myself.

Shannon Flynn [00:08:36] But then in 1990, I went back to school at the University of Utah to finish my degree. And when I had started originally I was in sciences. By that time I completely changed and I got my degree. I've got a Bachelor of Art degree in history at the University of Utah. And one of my favorite teachers there was, was Davis Bitten.

Shannon Flynn [00:09:01] So I was full into that. And now I've never gotten a master's or a PhD, but I've read as much as anybody, sure. With a PhD, so I'm sorry, I don't know quite answer that.

John Dehlin [00:09:18] So had you had any crisis of faith, any significant doubts in the church's truth claims, in, in the historicity of the Book of Mormon, in this being God's one true church, that sort of thing? Had you had any significant doubts or questions about that sort of a faith crisis prior to meeting Mark?

Shannon Flynn [00:09:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:40] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:09:40] Yes. But when I say, I mean it depends on what your definition of a crisis, you know, or a faith doubt. I believe that Everybody that is any sort of a historian, I believe that Richard Bushman has had a faith doubt.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] Right.

Shannon Flynn [00:09:58] I believe that any name I can, Terrell Givens has had it. Everybody. It goes through your head. You have times you hit parts. That is news to you.

John Dehlin [00:10:10] Sure.

Shannon Flynn [00:10:11] Four major phases of the first vision. That's new. You have to go through that and understand that. And, and as a result, I don't believe the way I did when I was 19.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] And we'll, we'll come back to that. But when you started working with Mark and getting to know Mark, I guess what I would ask were you. Were you a believer in Mormonism and in the truthfulness of the church and, you know, kind of that it was led by prophets and the Book of Mormon was a historical ancient record, that sort of thing.

Shannon Flynn [00:10:52] Well, go to it all the time. Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] Did you believe it?

Shannon Flynn [00:11:01] Well, it depends on what. What do you mean by do I believe it?

John Dehlin [00:11:07] Yes, I'm saying, I'm saying back then, I mean, so, I mean, I guess there's. Let's just say there's two models. One is like, oh, I don't believe this is really the true church, and I think it's been fooling people, or I no longer believe it, but I'll stay in it as a social Mormon. Let's just say that's one possibility. And then another possibility is, oh, I still believe the church is true. I. I still believe in God and Jesus, that Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Book of Mormon is scripture. But I have maybe a less traditional view. Let's just say those are two options. Do either of those resonate with you or something in the middle in terms of how you were when you met Mark?

Shannon Flynn [00:11:43] Well, well, yeah. I mean, things were going on and I was learning stuff that were new and very different, but what I never was was. La, la, la. Shut up. I don't want to hear what you're saying. I always wanted to hear what you had to say. But that meant that there was times that a particular thing. How many wives Joseph Smith had in their various ages? Oh, there was sometimes it was years. I had to work through that.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:12:23] I had to. Whoa. Maybe let me ask you not what I believed. I'm still go. But how do I, how do I understand that? Attaway.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] Right?

Shannon Flynn [00:12:34] Make that fit and you know, maybe

John Dehlin [00:12:37] I'll ask one slightly different way. How would you describe your beliefs back in 1983? What did you believe? Learning like crazy, but like God, Jesus, atonement, Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon. Where you had. You. Are you saying you had suspended your beliefs in those things?

Shannon Flynn [00:12:55] No. So no.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] What would you have.

Shannon Flynn [00:12:59] But I never had it all happen at once. It was this piece, this piece, this piece, this piece, Work through this piece. Still got these.

John Dehlin [00:13:10] Okay, so it's a work in progress. Yeah, but. But you weren't like, I don't believe this anymore or this church is a fraud or this church isn't true. You weren't at that. In that mindset, you maintained significant Mormon belief.

Shannon Flynn [00:13:25] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] Okay, thank you. Okay, so did you have any dealings in documents books? Were you in that business prior to meeting Mark? And if so, what. What were you doing in the document history business prior to meeting Mark?

Entering the Mormon Rare Documents World

Shannon Flynn [00:13:45] I was prior to Mark, but it was just because of Lynn, because I learned I knew Lynn first. So I was with Lynn Jacobs when we went to. To the Deseret Book, which back in those days had a rare department downstairs. And I was. I started to get the first. This is way cool. This is. I was just. I got the disease of collecting. And it doesn't matter what you. Coins, cars, fishing bowls, art, whatever you go nuts about. I was going nuts.

John Dehlin [00:14:26] You were buying.

Shannon Flynn [00:14:28] The first thing I ever bought was a pamphlet, third edition, and I can't remember which one it was, but it was in a nice little plastic thing about that big, and it was $10 or $15. And I bought that and took it home. Whoa, this is so good. And it was just going to be the first of, what can I get next? And I have maintained a fixation with BH Roberts. In fact, just bought some more stuff yesterday, so still do. But I was standing there with Lynn Jacobs. He was the one said, here, let's go downstairs right there, look through this stuff. And so I was learning from him.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] So you were. You were learning stuff and acquiring stuff. Were you actually buying and selling, sort of trying to also just make, maybe make a living off of the ability to. To buy and sell, or were you mostly interested in acquiring it?

Shannon Flynn [00:15:28] Oh, initially it was just buying.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] So up until Mark, you were just buying?

Shannon Flynn [00:15:32] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] You weren't trying to sell and make profits on stuff that you remember?

Shannon Flynn [00:15:37] Yeah, I don't know. I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:15:38] Okay, okay, okay. So tell us. Tell us your first. And by the way, listeners, check out the Lynn Jacobs episode to hear all about Lynn. We're not going to re. Re recover what we covered for four hours yesterday, but Lynn Jacobs is a very important part of this whole story. Tell us about meeting Mark for the first time and what led to you kind of becoming a friend and partner with Mark.

Shannon Flynn [00:16:04] I don't remember the event. I was just. I was with Lynn, and we were at one of the bookstores. Sam Weller, Deseret Book. I'm sure there's others, but I. So long ago, I don't remember the exact one. And it was just, you know, hello, and how are you? And, you know, now by that time, I had been around Lynn long enough that I realized that that's a big collector and finder.

John Dehlin [00:16:38] You knew he was a big deal.

Shannon Flynn [00:16:40] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] Okay, so maybe there. There are several forgeries that he had released that weren't known to be forgeries prior to 1983. So there. There would have been. So can you talk about kind of each one of those documents that you. If you had known about them and what your reactions to them were at the time, does that make sense?

Shannon Flynn [00:17:06] Sure. They're really interesting. The end. I don't have any.

John Dehlin [00:17:10] So, like, the Anton. The Anton manuscript, did you process that about what it might have meant for the Church or not, or did it have any significance or meaning?

Shannon Flynn [00:17:19] Yeah, I mean, separate from Mark. I mean, just, you know, talking about it. Talking about it with Lynn, but nothing bad. I never. Oh, no, this is terrible. No, I just thought that was really interesting.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] The. The Anton transcript.

Shannon Flynn [00:17:36] Yeah. And Joseph Smith iii. Blessing and what. Whatever it was before I, you know, had an early contact with. With Mark. I. And after I met him, I don't know how long ago, but it had to have been months. But see that. I don't know, four months, eight months, I don't know from when he first met him and then really was kind of talking with him. But I can tell you that I never talked to him about anything of a forgery nature. I never said that seems strange, or what about that? Or I just assumed that it was interesting and a miracle to find it. You know, that's that sort of thing.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] Right. When. When these letters start coming out, the Anton transcript, the Joseph Smith III letter, the Bullock letter to Brigham Young, the Lucy Mack Smith letter, and then, of course, the Josiah Stole letter. How did it. Did any of them, like, number one, did any of them cause you to kind of. Whoa. That really kind of challenges my testimony or my faith and. Or did you see any of them as potentially threatening to the church as they were coming out? And. And were you. How were you feeling about kind of this moment in time where these documents seem to be appearing, all talking about issues that really struck potentially to the core of the Church's truth? Claims. Does that make sense or did you not think of it that way?

Shannon Flynn [00:19:22] I never thought of it that way. You did, in fact. Yeah, in fact, the Bullock letter you just said. I don't know what it is.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] I think it was basically Bullock chastising Brigham Young for destroying the Joseph Smith III blessing or letter. Basically implying that Brigham Young would have had evidence destroyed that would have challenged his authority.

Shannon Flynn [00:19:46] Cole, I've never heard of it to this day.

John Dehlin [00:19:50] Yeah, okay. Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:19:51] And then Josiah stole. Never heard of it. I. Now I know about it, but at that time, I never heard of that.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] You didn't. You hadn't heard of. Of his early forgeries?

Shannon Flynn [00:20:06] Those two out of your list? One I didn't. I still don't know until right now. And then the Josiah Stowell. I only heard about that after the bombings. Really? Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] But you did hear about the Anthon transcript.

Shannon Flynn [00:20:22] Okay, yes, Anthon. Well, the ones that come to my mind beforehand, the big ones, Anton Joseph Smith iii, the Lucy Mack Smith that Brent Ashworth bought. Knew about that because, of course, Brent loves the publicity. See, I'm trying to think.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] No, that's fine.

Shannon Flynn [00:20:49] That's all that comes to me.

Becoming a Colleague and Friend of Mark Hofmann

John Dehlin [00:20:50] Okay, so how. Tell us how you ended up. Would you say you were friends with Mark and. And tell us how you ended up becoming sort of a business colleague or collaborator with Mark, and then tell us what your relationship was and what types of projects you worked on with Mark.

Shannon Flynn [00:21:10] Well, I mean, we became friends, and so we did things socially. If you listen to the thing yesterday, you'll find out more about that. But my wife and I would go to their house. I went to his house in Sandy with Lynn once, and I can't even remember. I didn't have anything to do with that. I just. Lynn didn't have a car, so I drove him a lot. So he said, we need to go to Mark's.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] So you're saying he went to Mark's only one time?

Shannon Flynn [00:21:42] No, his Sandy house.

John Dehlin [00:21:43] Oh, his Sandy house.

Shannon Flynn [00:21:44] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:21:45] Okay. Is that where he had the basement or.

Shannon Flynn [00:21:48] No, that's the house. The first house he bought.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:21:52] And it was 94 south and something. I can find his address, whatever. So I did go to that one once, but we were only there a few minutes. But then. So the only times that I went to his house was his house on Marie Avenue.

John Dehlin [00:22:10] And that's in, like, Mill Creek area. Holiday. Mill Creek area.

Shannon Flynn [00:22:13] Yeah. Okay. I don't want to give the exact place. That's fine, because people go crazy. Yeah, but it's like 33rd south and 2030s.

John Dehlin [00:22:22] Sure.

Shannon Flynn [00:22:23] Okay. Now that of course is the house he grew up in.

John Dehlin [00:22:27] Right.

Shannon Flynn [00:22:27] And then he bought it from his parents. So, you know, so he spent a lot of his life. So all the time you hear about the secret room and stuff. That was his room when he was a teenager.

John Dehlin [00:22:40] Oh, okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:22:41] So.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] So that became his office.

Shannon Flynn [00:22:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:22:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:46] Did you ever go into that office?

Shannon Flynn [00:22:48] Never did.

John Dehlin [00:22:49] Never once.

Shannon Flynn [00:22:49] Never once.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] How many times do you think you visited that house? Do you even have a way? Like once? Five, A dozen?

Shannon Flynn [00:22:57] No, no, let me give. Because there's lots of things I've done that right now I can't give exacts. So let me set the outsides.

John Dehlin [00:23:05] Right.

Shannon Flynn [00:23:05] No way. And it's just.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] Yeah. Somewhere in the middle.

Shannon Flynn [00:23:10] More than 8, less then 15.

John Dehlin [00:23:16] Okay, okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:23:18] 8, 9, 10.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] And that's over. That's over about a two year period from. From 1983 to 1985 sort of thing.

Shannon Flynn [00:23:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:23:29] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:23:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:23:30] But never do his basement.

Shannon Flynn [00:23:32] Never went downstairs.

John Dehlin [00:23:33] Okay. Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:23:35] Now I knew that it was down there because it came up with Dory saying something. But I never went in the basement. So it wasn't. I've been in the whole house except the secret room.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] Right.

Shannon Flynn [00:23:50] I just never went downstairs. Just never had a reason to.

John Dehlin [00:23:55] Let's repeat the little story that. That was told yesterday because there was a point where the. The downstairs office was mentioned. Do you want to just retell that story really quick? I think you were there. Was it Mark saying, don't go down there. I hate it when she goes down there. Or he told her never go good to go down there?

Shannon Flynn [00:24:11] Oh yeah, that was. The writers talk that. And. And he was saying something to her and told her never go in that room. And then she said, I don't know if this is the movie. It may be in the movie too. And she. Well, it is the movie because there's a little fake thing of her vacuuming. And she said, that's great. I don't have to clean that room.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] Yeah, right.

Shannon Flynn [00:24:39] But so I have since the movie seen the, the crime scene picture of it. So that's the first time I've ever seen. Right inside.

John Dehlin [00:24:50] Right.

Shannon Flynn [00:24:51] What it looks. Yeah, but. But you know, I guess the, the way they have that in the movie that he's doing Summers forgery is doing the electrolysis thing. And that's news to me.

John Dehlin [00:25:08] Okay. And I hear you saying that at no point ever in any of your conversations with Mark did you ever discuss the topic of possible forgeries or forgeries or even just using the word forgery in your communications with Mark is that what you're saying is correct?

Shannon Flynn [00:25:27] I never heard him say that or even given a hint that there's something like that.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] And you never even. Did you ever wonder that? Did you ever wonder you never the. The forgery thought in all your time with Mark never even sort of never

Shannon Flynn [00:25:47] came up to you. Right.

John Dehlin [00:25:50] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:25:50] Because see everything that he sold was verified.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] Right.

Shannon Flynn [00:25:57] And so how would I. The anthem transcript. What did the church do specifically? I don't know that one Joseph Smith iii. I do know a little bit about that one because the LDS church, I don't know how much effort they put into that one. Some I think on the handwriting on the outside and the handwriting and I think was Dean Jesse that you know went through that but I don't think they paid any physical stuff. But then when they. When it got transferred to the. Okay, sorry everybody. I'm not really great at all the current terms.

John Dehlin [00:26:40] That's okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:26:41] So I'm not a jerk. I just don't spend a lot of time.

John Dehlin [00:26:45] Don't worry. Don't worry.

Shannon Flynn [00:26:45] So I won't go through Reorganized Church now called Christ. Yeah, Reorganized Church.

John Dehlin [00:26:52] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [00:26:52] They paid well known people and so I thought who's going to spend. Sure they're going to test it but when they get a good. You're done right now the Lucy Mack. What did Brent Ashworth do with that one? I don't know. I don't know I'm sure stuff but Salamander man Steve Christensen sent that back to you can tell I got a real problem this way.

John Dehlin [00:27:31] He had it authenticated.

Shannon Flynn [00:27:33] The guy the world famous. The guy that found the Hitlery diary forgeries for authentication. Who am I going to have anything to say against that? So people think say to me what's the matter with you? Why didn't you think that everyone was

John Dehlin [00:27:52] tested by wealthy organizations that had a strong interest to know whether these documents are legitimate.

Shannon Flynn [00:28:01] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:28:01] And if the world's top corporations, churches and or experts were authenticating these, who are you to question their authenticity? Is that what you're saying?

Shannon Flynn [00:28:10] That's what I'm saying. And if you want I can say something more about that if you want.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] No, no, that's good.

Shannon Flynn [00:28:18] So.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] So what how did you become like working with him, collaborating with him as a colleague and then tell us the main projects you were. You were involved in with Mark.

Shannon Flynn [00:28:31] Okay, let's try to get through this because I'm not going to. I can't stay here all day. You know, eventually we just Started doing things together. But there were always a. A, I never worked. I was never employed. I didn't have a W2 or any of that. It was just do this, I'll pay you, and you'll take care of it. So one of the times. And I'm not going to put these chronologically.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] No, it's fine.

Shannon Flynn [00:29:07] I just can't keep track.

John Dehlin [00:29:08] Do the best you can.

Shannon Flynn [00:29:10] One time I flew to New York by myself at his behest. He was purchasing something from Schiller and Wapner. And so I flew, and there was a real tight time period. And so I left, I think, on a Friday, and I was gone Friday, Saturday, Sunday, something like that. But it was so tight that there was only first class.

Shannon Flynn [00:29:41] And so I flew there on American airlines in a DC10, whatever. First class. First time I'd ever done that in my life. It was good because he just wrote to Jack because he said, you got to get there by before 5 o' clock on Friday, something like that. And I can't remember what I had, but. Well, I can't. I can't remember the exact amount, but this is true for several. When I say several, three or maybe four times.

Shannon Flynn [00:30:19] My main point in that trip was to carry cash. And so I would take $15,000 all in hundreds. 18,000, something like that. So I was taking cash to Sherrin Wapner to pay for something.

John Dehlin [00:30:38] Books or documents or.

Shannon Flynn [00:30:40] It was books. He never did anything. Documents with them. They were not. They were his. He was their customer.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] And what types of books, again, were these.

Shannon Flynn [00:30:54] That he was. He was buying from them? Children's books.

John Dehlin [00:31:02] Okay, like we talked about yesterday.

Shannon Flynn [00:31:04] Sorry, having a little water problem here. So think of fantastic children. Tom Sawyer, Huckleberry Finn, the, you know,

John Dehlin [00:31:19] Roald Dahl, wizard of Oz. Right.

Shannon Flynn [00:31:24] And he had amassed one of the best collections in private hands. And so people say, what was Mark doing with that money? That's where a large portion of what was going.

John Dehlin [00:31:38] So you said it was a book.

Shannon Flynn [00:31:40] So I went with cash, came home with the book.

John Dehlin [00:31:42] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:31:43] So you would think what he did is said, great, here's fifteen hundred dollars.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] And then bring the book back. When you traveled with. How many times do you remember traveling to New York or Boston with Mark? And when you got. We talked about this a little bit yesterday, but I didn't get a clear sense of what you were doing when you traveled with. How many times did you travel with Mark to places like Boston or New York, and when you traveled with him there, what. What was your role then?

Shannon Flynn [00:32:13] That's what I said. Three or four.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] With him, I meant.

Shannon Flynn [00:32:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:19] I thought those were without him.

Shannon Flynn [00:32:21] No, three or four and then one without.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] Okay. Because when you're saying you're traveling up with a bunch of money and then bringing home the book.

Shannon Flynn [00:32:31] That was one time.

John Dehlin [00:32:32] That was one time.

Shannon Flynn [00:32:33] I was. The other times, one of the trips was not carrying money, but the other ones were.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] And with him.

Shannon Flynn [00:32:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] Why did he need you to carry money?

Shannon Flynn [00:32:51] I don't know. Being a jerk.

John Dehlin [00:32:53] What do you mean?

Shannon Flynn [00:32:54] Being fancy. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] So literally, he would say, I need you to come to New York with me to carry the cash. Okay. When you were there, I think. I think the movie gives a little. What's wrong? What's wrong?

Shannon Flynn [00:33:15] Tell you a secret?

John Dehlin [00:33:16] Yeah, sure.

Shannon Flynn [00:33:21] You can't keep me all day. I promise me, if I give you secrets, some damn secrets, I won't keep you past one.

John Dehlin [00:33:31] I promise.

Shannon Flynn [00:33:34] Nobody tried to send me to jail. The only reason I'm saying this, because statute of limitations are so far gone. One of the trips, I took a gun, cold python.357. And had a holster for it and carried it around the whole time.

John Dehlin [00:33:55] Why? What was the. What was the thought?

Shannon Flynn [00:33:58] I also had 15 to 18 thousand dollars in my pocket.

John Dehlin [00:34:04] So kind of a security person to protect the money. Was Mark fearful of his life? Was he fearful he'd be robbed, do you think?

Shannon Flynn [00:34:14] Maybe, but. And then you think, okay, lots of questions are coming at me. You're such a jerk. Why did you do it? Why didn't he do this? In 1984, it was not that odd to carry cash. He would go to his bank, get the money and then give it to me. And I would just have it folded in my pocket.

Shannon Flynn [00:34:42] That was the best security, just to have it folded in my pocket. He was doing. I'm not calling Shit or Wapner wrong, bad people. But Mark got a better deal if he could just pay in cash. So that's why there were no wire transfers, no stuff like that.

Shannon Flynn [00:35:09] Because Mark would take it from me. And then we'd go to Sheridan Wapner. He would go in the back. I would stay out front looking at the stuff, talking to somebody there. He'd go in the back for a half an hour, an hour, and do whatever it was he was doing with Justin and handing over the cash.

Shannon Flynn [00:35:31] That's why it was there. Now. We almost. I almost went to jail because that trip, coming home, we were on Continental Airlines and the whole system went down. And so people were missing flights all over Every airport back east. And we were at LaGuardia.

Shannon Flynn [00:35:56] And so I had one suitcase that I was gonna check. I was never stupid enough to take it on the plane. I'd just check it, put it on my checked bag. We were completely doing everything we could. They had to write a ticket, but there was no check in a bag. It was just take it. What you got? That went through X ray and I was not caught.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] Oh, wow.

Shannon Flynn [00:36:23] And I.

John Dehlin [00:36:23] And it was the gun or is the money that was in the gun. Okay. And they didn't detect it?

Shannon Flynn [00:36:28] No.

John Dehlin [00:36:28] Wow.

Shannon Flynn [00:36:29] And I totally forgotten.

John Dehlin [00:36:31] Oh, my goodness.

Shannon Flynn [00:36:32] And I sat down and looked at that bag and went. And I sweat the next 30 minutes thinking somebody's going to come pick me up and throw me in jail for some reason.

John Dehlin [00:36:45] They didn't see it's a been heavenly father. Must have been divine providence. That's a miracle. Okay, so what I'm hearing you say is your main role in New York or on these trips was to carry the cash and to carry a gun and to defend or protect. One time.

Shannon Flynn [00:37:01] One time.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] But you weren't there for your expertise, and you weren't there to actually do. Be a front man or be a negotiator or anything like that.

Shannon Flynn [00:37:11] No, just to be a friend.

John Dehlin [00:37:13] A friend.

Shannon Flynn [00:37:13] Because all day long, we. We. We got a hotel room. We. We. We saw a movie once. Terminator was new. I won't go into the bizarre experience there.

John Dehlin [00:37:27] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:37:27] We would go to dinner with Schiller and Wapner.

John Dehlin [00:37:30] Right.

Shannon Flynn [00:37:30] So it was somebody just to be with.

John Dehlin [00:37:33] So just to have a companion, kind of. So one of the impressions I think the documentary may make is that you guys kind of partied while you were there. Maybe alcohol, maybe drugs, maybe dancing, maybe. Maybe. Maybe there were kind of sexual exploits. And I'm not, you know, as faithful Mormons or at least as people who were perceived as faithful Mormons. You know, what is it you want to say about that or. Nothing. You don't have to say anything. I'm just whatever you're comfortable saying. Because that is an impression that's made, Right?

Correcting the Documentary Record

Shannon Flynn [00:38:06] Yeah. Because, see, I want to fix one of the problems in the film.

John Dehlin [00:38:10] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:38:10] Actually, two of the problems in the film right off. Okay, stop. I have to do something right now. Tyler Meesum is man amongst men. He killed himself doing this thing five years. It's a miracle it ever was put together, what he went through. And they pulled off those two. One of the great films of all time. I just heard one day ago that that thing is still in the top five of Netflix in the tens of millions.

Shannon Flynn [00:38:49] So. And then they did what they had to do to make this thing work. And one of the things to make it work is they had to erase Lynn. I was very upset about that. Then they explained to me why it had to be that way. And then I said, okay, I understand now. Because point number one is this has to be a movie that not me watches. Not anybody in Utah watches the rest of the world. So things happen to make that thing move.

John Dehlin [00:39:24] Sure.

Shannon Flynn [00:39:24] So the drinking thing. One of the trips I went with Mark, Lynn Jacobs had come from Boston. He had been telling Mark that he could get him drunk. He said, I can get enough alcohol into you to make you drunk and fall down. And Mark said, no, you can't. And so he went to the restaurant where we were staying because at one point a hostess says, you are drinking too much. I hope you're not driving. And I said, I didn't drink. I have to say that stuff that Mark and Lynn did, especially Mark, I didn't do. I never drank.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] You never drank ever?

Shannon Flynn [00:40:11] Never.

John Dehlin [00:40:12] No drinking or drugs. You obeyed the word of wisdom to

Shannon Flynn [00:40:16] the none of it.

John Dehlin [00:40:16] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:40:17] Did we go to Terminator? Yes. Did Mark at some point get some cocaine? I have no idea. Did he go to live sex act stuff? I don't know if he did. I wasn't there, so maybe he did. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:40:34] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:40:35] Not while I was there.

John Dehlin [00:40:37] You never saw him do that?

Shannon Flynn [00:40:38] I never saw him do that.

John Dehlin [00:40:39] And you never participated in that kind of stuff.

Shannon Flynn [00:40:41] But did he do it? I guess. But the drinking. I did. See, but you didn't drink because when we would go to dinners, and that was one of the nice things about Justin Schiller. Best food in my life. So good there. He would drink with them. But anyway, this one sat and it was Lynn Jacobs that said, have two of these. A double whiskey, a double burden, a double vodka. Trying to get him drunk. Well, what we didn't realize at the time was Lynn was getting. Excuse me. Mark was getting drunk, but he was fighting it mentally. He was doing the thing. And so. But see, it didn't work in the movie. So they actually edited out me saying Lynn Jacobs, then re added with me saying Justin Schiller. That never happened.

John Dehlin [00:41:39] Okay, okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:41:40] The me taking a picture of the Salamander letter, that was where I worked. But Lynn Jacobs came, so they had to re ramp the whole thing, kind

John Dehlin [00:41:51] of take Lynn out.

Shannon Flynn [00:41:52] So they look at that. That's real. No, it's not. That's Fake.

John Dehlin [00:41:55] Okay. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. But again, remember how the sausage gets made. Tyler, Jared, the thumbs up big time. And they're. They're dear friends. And shout out to Tyler and Jared, love you both.

Shannon Flynn [00:42:06] That's why they did a great job. Okay? And.

Speculation About Hofmann's Private Life

John Dehlin [00:42:09] And we. You know, there. There is a lot of speculation, dozens and dozens of messages to me that Mark Hoffman may have been gay. That there. There are all sorts of mean things said about that. I just want to say we covered that in the Lynn Jacobs episode.

Shannon Flynn [00:42:26] If.

John Dehlin [00:42:26] If I were to. Can confirm this is Lynn Jacobs definitely was gay, what you said, and he died of aids, but what you said yesterday was you never saw any indication ever that. That Mark was gay. Never.

Shannon Flynn [00:42:45] And. And you know what? What stuff I. I heard about him or thought maybe it was always. Homosexual, heterosexual.

John Dehlin [00:42:54] Right.

Shannon Flynn [00:42:55] Never. Never. Never said anything to Lynn. Never said to Lynn, find me some. Nothing.

John Dehlin [00:43:02] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:43:02] Nothing.

John Dehlin [00:43:03] Yeah. And the only reason we're mentioning that is because Sandra Tanner mentioned to me that the police, during the investigations in 85, kept asking Shannon and kept asking Sandra and Mark and others. I don't know if it was Sandra, but Mark and others. About whether there was some sort of LGBTQ motive in the bombings and in the forgeries and that sort of thing. And so it's not in any way for any other reason, no prurient reasons to ask these sorts of questions.

Shannon Flynn [00:43:32] Yeah, they were doing it just as investigation, placing blame, using that to say, you two are gay, so you suck. You see?

John Dehlin [00:43:42] Right. To malign them, to make them look bad. Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [00:43:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:45] Okay. Did you. You know, Mark. Mark presented himself to the world as an active, faithful, believing Mormon. There are all these people saying he was a family man, devoted family man. So if you're traveling to New York seeing an unsavory, kind of, you know, sinful Mark Hoffman, knowing that when he comes back to Utah, he's with Dory and he's presenting himself as a faithful Mormon. Didn't that in your mind, call into question his ethics, his honesty, his trustworthiness, knowing that he was kind of living an unsavory, unmormon life, you know, double life, so to speak?

Shannon Flynn [00:44:27] Well, yeah, but in life, I've known lots of people like that. I mean, since I was in high school, maybe. Before I knew people, I.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] That's part of being a human. That's part of being a human, is have friends. That man.

Shannon Flynn [00:44:44] There was a kid that lived next door to us that he would bless the Sacrament. He was 16, and we knew he was drinking beer. His Head off the night before.

John Dehlin [00:44:55] Right. And you just have Mormon. That's part of being Utah Mormon.

Shannon Flynn [00:45:00] Right. That's the way I saw Mark.

John Dehlin [00:45:02] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [00:45:02] That level.

John Dehlin [00:45:04] Did Mark ever give you an indication ever that he doubted the church, that he didn't believe in the church, that he was angry at the church? Any of that? He was an atheist?

Shannon Flynn [00:45:14] Oh, yeah, he told me probably. And 84, maybe 83. Don't hold me on these dates, please.

John Dehlin [00:45:25] Around. Around these.

Shannon Flynn [00:45:26] Doing the best I can.

John Dehlin [00:45:28] Sure.

Shannon Flynn [00:45:28] That he was a totally atheist. Totally atheist. And he told me he had been since he was 14 years old.

John Dehlin [00:45:38] Okay, so then that's another extra sort of element of duplicity that you know that he's not living the Mormon life, but you also know that he's presenting himself as an orthodox, faithful, believing Mormon and he's totally an atheist. Did that not cause you alarm to say, is this guy really trustworthy? Is this someone who's. Who's on the up and up?

Shannon Flynn [00:46:02] Not really. Not really.

John Dehlin [00:46:04] Because that's deception. Is that deception kind of.

Shannon Flynn [00:46:06] Well, sure, but I've known and I still know people that do that. You know, you hear about that constantly. You know, once in a while I'll hear about church leaders, bishops that just got excommunicated. Really? What happened? Oh, he's had, you know, he's been having an affair with this woman for the last six years. To me, it's like, yeah, that kind of stuff happens everywhere. But that happens to anybody. There's people that have no religious backing at all that have affairs and stuff behind their spouse's mind.

John Dehlin [00:46:50] Right.

Shannon Flynn [00:46:51] That happens in the tens of thousands all the time. So good or bad? Bad. Great behavior. No. But the same as lots of people. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:47:05] So it doesn't. Those things alone don't make someone like, not credible or overall untrustworthy. You can have private beliefs and. Or even private behaviors and even kind of live a bit of a duplicitous or a very significantly duplicitous life. But that doesn't mean you're a person that just on a macro level has no integrity and is dishonest and is a liar and is. Is untrustworthy.

Shannon Flynn [00:47:31] It's just that what you have to decide as a human person.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] But for you, you still felt like

Shannon Flynn [00:47:36] he was CEOs of big companies in the United States are having got two women going on the side, but they're great as the CEO.

John Dehlin [00:47:47] Right? Right. Yeah. Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:47:50] That's what humans do now.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] Oh, go ahead.

Shannon Flynn [00:47:53] It had ever reached to the point of what Mark, we found out that he is. Never has. But because now, especially what he said in the. The parole hearing, that amazed me to this day. I sat there and looked at that and heard him, well, it could have killed a child or a dog. I still. Yeah, I.

John Dehlin [00:48:23] That wasn't the mark.

Shannon Flynn [00:48:24] You can tell right now. My mouth hangs open.

John Dehlin [00:48:26] That wasn't the mark you knew? No. Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:48:28] And I don't know how to account that.

John Dehlin [00:48:30] And we'll get to that. One of the most theatrical parts of the documentary was kind of, you know, you guys going in the hot rod, going out to the fields or the desert, blowing up stuff, shooting the Uzi. And then. And then there's a lot of people that want to say, okay, Mark did a bomb. You had a book about bomb making, and I think even someone wrote in that you helped prepare the caps that went on the pipe bombs or something like that. So there's a lot of people that are like, what in the world was the gun toting, the Uzi shooting, the bomb exploding and the. And the bomb making sort of. What was all that? What was that business? Why were you involved in it? And then how does that not implicate you in what later becomes the bombing? Spend some time talking through all that. If.

Shannon Flynn [00:49:23] Well, first of all, let's get what's true and what's not true.

John Dehlin [00:49:26] Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, please.

Shannon Flynn [00:49:28] Did I buy a book called An Archist Cookbook at Cosmic Airplane? Yes, I did. So did lots of people. They sold lots of those. So I'm so different. No, I'm not. Because Anarchist's Cookbook has a whole drug section, tells you how to make something out of Morning Glory. Lsd. Lsd. How you can make it out of, you know, stuff. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:50:00] Yeah. So why did you buy that book?

Shannon Flynn [00:50:03] Because it was really interesting. Because of all of those things.

John Dehlin [00:50:06] Drugs, bombs, everything. Okay. There's a lot to it.

Shannon Flynn [00:50:12] Huge amount.

John Dehlin [00:50:13] So did you buy that book because you were interested in. In the bomb making part of it?

Shannon Flynn [00:50:18] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:50:19] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:50:20] Never used it. They. The police picked it up and tried make a big deal out of it. It wasn't a big deal.

John Dehlin [00:50:29] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:50:30] Because for a while I was interested in Soldier of Forging Fortune magazine.

John Dehlin [00:50:38] What is that? Tell us what that is.

Shannon Flynn [00:50:40] It's just. It's a. It's not around anymore. It was a book, the magazine that was supposedly geared towards people that were soldiers of fortune around the world. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:50:56] Yeah. And why were you interested in that? Just because it was fun or interesting.

Shannon Flynn [00:50:59] It's just Interesting.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:51:02] But I don't know how many magazines they sold a month. 25,000, 50,000, whatever. So does that mean there's 50,000 murders?

John Dehlin [00:51:15] Right. Right.

Shannon Flynn [00:51:16] No.

Bomb Making and the Lead-Up to the Bombings

John Dehlin [00:51:16] So what was the bomb making and Uzi shooting about?

Shannon Flynn [00:51:20] The bomb making was nothing. He. Mark. Okay, now I got to tell you, I got to talk fast because like I said, I can't stay here all day. Mark was the person with the interest in bombs and had been since he was a kid. Before.

Shannon Flynn [00:51:39] If you would see him when he was. When I knew him, two of his fingers, one of the hands, I can't remember, were kind of injured because he messed around with firecrackers and the big ones. And he actually made a bomb. And it went off at his elementary school. When he was in elementary, Dory could tell. Dorie, come on. You can tell us about this part more than I can because I don't know all the details of that. So it was Mark that had that. And he had an interest. And I knew a guy that lived in Richfield who had relatives that would blow up stumps.

Shannon Flynn [00:52:26] And so they just chewed a stick of dynamite and a fuse. I light it kind of fuse. And so at one time I got two of those and gave them to Mark. Never saw him again. I never built a bomb with him. I did nothing with a pipe. Whoever says that is just making up crap. Or lying.

Shannon Flynn [00:52:51] In the movie, the Car, Mark did have that car racing, spinning in the dirt. Dirt made up. Never happened. Totally made up. Mark setting off a bomb. Have no idea.

John Dehlin [00:53:08] You never saw Mark set off a bomb. Somebody talked about producing a blast cap in Richfield for Mark.

Shannon Flynn [00:53:15] Just what I just said.

John Dehlin [00:53:16] What never happened.

Shannon Flynn [00:53:18] No, I just told them.

John Dehlin [00:53:20] Okay, okay. Why did you do that? What was that about?

Shannon Flynn [00:53:22] He was interested. I found two and gave them to him.

John Dehlin [00:53:27] What do you mean you found two caps? Blast caps. What does that mean?

Shannon Flynn [00:53:32] Guess he was reading something.

John Dehlin [00:53:35] No, no, I just wanna. I wanna.

Shannon Flynn [00:53:37] I did just say the story.

John Dehlin [00:53:39] No, I. Yes, thank you. And I. I want to just explain. Why were you creating blast caps and then why did you give them to Mark?

Shannon Flynn [00:53:52] He was interested. I'll have to tell the story over again. No, have a friend who lives in. Lived in Richfield. He had relatives that were farmers. They needed to get rid of stumps. So they were able. Somehow, I don't know how to get to go someplace and buy a stick of dynamite and the fuses.

John Dehlin [00:54:17] Okay, the stump. I'm sorry. I missed that. I'm sorry. Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:54:20] It's the fire coming.

John Dehlin [00:54:21] And so Mark says I need blast caps from you.

Shannon Flynn [00:54:24] I would be interested. He heard that I knew somebody and he said, oh, I'd love to get a couple of those. And I said, oh, okay, I'll get them. I'll get what I can. And see, at that time, I was working at Wasatch Photographic, and the person I knew was a photographer. There was a photographer in Richfield, and we were friends for a long time. And so I brought it up and he said, yeah, I'll talk to one of my relatives and see if I can get a couple of them. And so that's when I was still working. And so I saw him at some point. I either went to Richfield or he came up, but he got two.

John Dehlin [00:55:10] What impression did Mark give you as to why he wanted blast caps? What was your understanding for why he wanted?

Shannon Flynn [00:55:17] No idea. Didn't say.

John Dehlin [00:55:19] And you had no idea?

Shannon Flynn [00:55:20] No idea. Never saw him again.

John Dehlin [00:55:23] Would these have been the blast caps he used for the. The three bombings? No. Why not?

Shannon Flynn [00:55:28] Because they were. You lighter. A match.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:55:33] They're not electric.

John Dehlin [00:55:34] Okay. Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:55:36] And I gave them two.

John Dehlin [00:55:37] Right.

Shannon Flynn [00:55:38] And he had three.

John Dehlin [00:55:39] Right.

Shannon Flynn [00:55:39] And they were all electronic.

John Dehlin [00:55:42] Okay. So you. Okay. And just to get right to the heart of the matter, if people want to say, you know, you. You worked with him to create the bombs or you were a co. Conspirator. I mean, obviously, whether or not that were true, you wouldn't even. You. It would be. You would not want to ever admit that. But what would your statement be? What would your statement be about? Just to make it really clear about ever knowing about Mark creating bombs and. Or, you know, helping Mark create bombs. What would you say?

Shannon Flynn [00:56:15] Okay, well, let me help you.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] Thank you.

Shannon Flynn [00:56:18] You've probably murdered somebody at some point in the past. I've heard that from somebody. But, you know, I know that even if you did, you would never admit to it. Isn't that true?

John Dehlin [00:56:30] Right, Right, right, right, right.

Shannon Flynn [00:56:31] Go ahead. Say. Quit saying that bullshit to me.

John Dehlin [00:56:35] Right. Well, yeah, I'm not. I don't think that. I just. I want to give you a chance to go on the record and say that once again. Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [00:56:44] There is no such thing. Those two caps gave to him and I can't remember. 84.

John Dehlin [00:56:51] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:56:52] Sometime.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [00:56:54] Never saw him again.

John Dehlin [00:56:55] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [00:56:56] I confessed all this to police.

John Dehlin [00:56:58] No, no, no, I know. Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [00:57:00] And I mean, I went on for hours with him about this.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] Right.

Shannon Flynn [00:57:05] Because they thought they had something.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [00:57:07] And guess what? Every FBI, Salt Lake County, Salt Lake City, atf. Especially the ATF guy. That guy sat there. I Could go a long time about this one. If there had been anything, they would have found it, right? There was nothing. But did Mark was interested in iron guns? Yes. Did Mark purchase an Uzi? Yes. Did we do the stuff to convert it to full auto? Yes. Did we fire it twice? Yes. Out in. Once on the. On the north side of I80 and once on the south side. Today, I couldn't tell you. I could drive around and say, I think right where.

John Dehlin [00:58:08] Yeah, it's probably subdivision. It's probably subdivisions now, so.

Shannon Flynn [00:58:13] Car shooting it out the window. Another. Sorry. Tyler and Jared made up crap.

John Dehlin [00:58:22] You shooting something out the window made up crap? Yeah. Are you frustrated that it was portrayed that way? Were you frustrated to see it portrayed that way? I've often wondered, what's that like? Someone's got to try and recreate the story because that's kind of part of visual storytelling. So they're going to get it wrong no matter what. But what's it like, number one, to have your life reenacted with actors and sort of dramatized? And then what's it like when it's around something kind of so potentially serious or incriminating? What was that like for you?

Shannon Flynn [00:58:53] Let's talk about that. Yes, it's a problem. Yes. It frustrates the living. I'm going to not. I swear, in real life.

John Dehlin [00:59:03] That's okay. You can swear. Okay, don't swear.

Shannon Flynn [00:59:06] People think I'm a jerk. It bothers me, always has. And it makes my wife crazy. This just sends her off the edge to see me portrayed this way.

John Dehlin [00:59:25] So when you watch the documentary, you felt those parts. You felt what?

Shannon Flynn [00:59:30] They don't bother me so much because I understand what we're working with here now. In 20 years, I won't be alive then, but say I was and somebody I'm helping putting together material. So all. And this is going to be part of material someday. The people can get the real story. If that person was doing something and it said PhD on it and that kind of stuff's in it, then I'm going to be really mad.

John Dehlin [01:00:08] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [01:00:09] Really? But now let's shift away from that. And this is a movie that is gonna be a documentary, but it has to be done in a way that, number one, Netflix is in charge of this. Yeah, they're the ones that did final edits on it. And so they had to be in charge of it. And there's some stuff in there.

John Dehlin [01:00:38] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:00:38] Me with the drinking, me with the shooting, the gun, me with all this stuff. Just me is wrong. But I I get what it is. I get what it is.

John Dehlin [01:00:48] Got it.

Shannon Flynn [01:00:51] I think, anyway, to finish off now, I'm here to say those things are wrong.

John Dehlin [01:00:58] Right. Okay. Thank you. People, really, I think the biggest question marks I've heard are from people saying, what? What? The day before the first two bombings, what were you doing with Mark? How much time did you spend with Mark? When were you with Mark? And. And what did you know and what didn't you know? I think that's the biggest area of suspicion people have. And I don't think in the documentary it really is clear. And it may be that you don't know or remember, but what can you tell us about everything you remember about what Mark was doing the day before or what you were doing with Mark the day before?

The Week of the Bombings

Shannon Flynn [01:01:48] I was doing very little. But you saw him maybe just talk to him on his phone.

John Dehlin [01:01:56] You don't remember ever seeing him face to face the day before? No. Okay.

Shannon Flynn [01:02:02] Because I didn't know what was going on specifically. Here are my examples. He had to meet Brent Metcalf to give him some money for work that. When for money. Brent needed that. I didn't know about that that day. I found out just recently. And if you go look with Brent Ashworth, he has a check that shows that Mark went to his house on Friday evening. I didn't know that. I was aware that he was very. Sorry. My language is falling apart here.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] Take your time.

Shannon Flynn [01:02:51] He was. He was. He had a lot of obligation towards Stephen Christensen because of the McClellan collection. Steve was all over him. At some point, Mark came to my house with Stephen Christensen and got a check from me.

Shannon Flynn [01:03:18] It was for $11,000. I can't remember who from. It may have been Deseret Book, maybe. Don't you love my voice going up and down? It's what you get for having the cancer. The check was made to me. I was supposed to go get that thing cashed, give the money to Mark. Except for what park was coming to me. No idea.

Shannon Flynn [01:03:49] Steve was there. Mark said, you need to endorse that to me right now. I did. And I could see him give that to Steve. Then they left. Was that the 14th? No. Because it was late at night. Could have been the 12th of the 11th, the 10th. I don't know. I don't know. But because of that, I knew Steve was all over him. Getting the hundred and thousand, 185,000 going back to First Hinder, First International Bank. So. And that had nothing to do with me.

John Dehlin [01:04:37] So let's just say the week leading up to the bombings. Do you remember spending one on one time with Mark? Doing. Doing anything. One on one projects, friendship stuff, hanging out. Let's just say the week leading up

Shannon Flynn [01:04:53] to the bombings in the three months before that, I was around with Mark a lot. I either saw him or talked with him five weeks. A day?

John Dehlin [01:05:04] Five times a day?

Shannon Flynn [01:05:06] No, for a week.

John Dehlin [01:05:08] Five times a week.

Shannon Flynn [01:05:09] Week.

John Dehlin [01:05:10] And what types of things were you working with Mark on in those months leading up to the bombings? What types of projects?

Shannon Flynn [01:05:20] I don't know. I can't remember anything specific.

John Dehlin [01:05:25] Was it the children's books? Was it Mormon documents?

Shannon Flynn [01:05:29] Could have that been one of the trips to New York maybe. Yeah, but which one? Which one was I doing? The specific thing. I don't remember. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:05:44] I guess what I'm asking is the nature of your collaborations with Mark from a business perspective in the months leading up to the bombing.

Shannon Flynn [01:05:52] Oh, well, I'm pretty sure in that three months. In fact, I'm almost sure because. Because I went to Brazil for the month of May of 90 85. So that would leave June, July, August, September and then part. And I had stopped working at Wasatch Photographic some. So that was my full time job for those four and a half months.

John Dehlin [01:06:33] Doing what? Working for Mark.

Shannon Flynn [01:06:35] Not four, but doing things. Okay, so one of the things I did was, is I sold some stuff for him, some stuff to a guy named Todd Axelrod who had a huge store in Las Vegas and it was the American Museum.

John Dehlin [01:07:01] It's okay.

Shannon Flynn [01:07:02] Something. Yeah, but it was selling documents, really expensive. And he had a store in the biggest, fanciest mall in Las Vegas. The thing still there, but it was really expensive stuff. Emancipation Proclamation and huge gigantic the people. And he bought three things from me. And one of them was the poem from Emily Dickinson that eventually that was sold through there. And there's a whole book about that poet and the murderer. So someday when it come back, we can take three hours on that.

John Dehlin [01:07:56] Okay, so if you describe those five months that was.

Shannon Flynn [01:07:59] He paid for the, the airfare, went down in one day, came back, brought the money, he gave me $1,000 or something. So that was what I did with him that one day. The next day I didn't do anything with him.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] Right. So we talked about yesterday with. About Lynn Jacobs that at some point Marc probably realized that it was too coincidental for him to always be finding these major documents. And so at least with the Salamander letter he uses Lynn Jacobs as the front man. But. But tells Lynn, don't let People know this is coming for me. And so it's Lynn that's corresponding with church headquarters. We're. So that's a role that Lynn played. You talked about a role of carrying cash or like sort of bodyguard during those five months, what types of roles did you play for Mark leading up to the bombings?

Shannon Flynn [01:09:02] I guess, just like I was saying,

John Dehlin [01:09:05] I would do a thing, buy something, sell something. Is that right?

Shannon Flynn [01:09:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:12] Okay. Thanks for answering these questions.

Shannon Flynn [01:09:18] When.

John Dehlin [01:09:19] When the bombing. When the bombing went off, what was your. What came to your mind when you heard about the bombings, the day of the bombings, what went through your mind?

Shannon Flynn [01:09:29] Well, the first day, the 15th, I thought there was. It was some. Had something to do with cfs,

John Dehlin [01:09:41] the business that. With Steve Christian, Steve Christensen was involved in.

Shannon Flynn [01:09:46] Garros states.

John Dehlin [01:09:48] You had no idea that it was connected to nothing at all Mark or Mormon documents or anything.

Shannon Flynn [01:09:55] The next day then the bomb goes off. That he is. He Bombs simply blows ups in the.

John Dehlin [01:10:06] When. When Kathy. When Kathy died, that was the same day, right?

Shannon Flynn [01:10:11] I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:10:11] When Kathy. Kathy. The second.

Shannon Flynn [01:10:13] Yeah, that was the first day.

John Dehlin [01:10:15] That was the first day, right. When those two bombs go off.

Shannon Flynn [01:10:18] I just thought it was the cfs,

John Dehlin [01:10:21] both of them, yeah. Okay. And you. Did you suspect Mark at all at that point? Okay.

Shannon Flynn [01:10:27] I believe the same thing. Everybody else in the whole world believe same thing.

John Dehlin [01:10:32] Okay. And then the second day or when the second, the third bomb went off, which was Mark's bomb.

Shannon Flynn [01:10:37] Mark. Then it's. I didn't understand why it could have had to do anything to do with Mark. I didn't know why. What. Mark have something to. Something wrong? Sorry. Having trouble talking here.

John Dehlin [01:10:56] No, it's okay. And this is. This is hard stuff. When did you start to wonder whether Mark. When did you start to first wonder whether Mark might have been involved with the bumps?

Shannon Flynn [01:11:10] Took me months. Months.

John Dehlin [01:11:13] What led to that wondering

Shannon Flynn [01:11:18] material was coming out when even. When he was even went through his being arrested and going to preliminary.

John Dehlin [01:11:32] Preliminary

Shannon Flynn [01:11:36] going to court. Because I went for both of them. His being getting a. A bribe. You know, I don't know if I can keep talking.

Health Challenges and Being a Suspect

John Dehlin [01:11:58] Well, one thing that you mentioned yesterday that I don't think people fully understand is kind of the. The medical condition that, that, you know, your medical situation. I was really sad, for example, when people made fun of your voice and it turns out there's a. There's a medical situation that impacts you. Is. Is this something you're comfortable just resharing now just so that people understand kind of whatever you want to say? About your medical condition.

Shannon Flynn [01:12:30] I have, I don't mind talking about it but you can see I've got some with yesterday of going over for four hours. It's, it's turned me bad but anyway I have lungs. This part of this part of my gong is taken out and part of this one and then the, the, the nerve nerve goes from here and goes down up. It was cut off. So my, this side in my voice doesn't work and never will. So it's just the right side. And I went and had a have a go to a doctor and they squirted something in there. So it helps a little bit on this side. But my nose will never ever be good everyone the rest of my life.

John Dehlin [01:13:37] Your voice.

Shannon Flynn [01:13:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:39] Yeah. And did you have part of your lungs removed?

Shannon Flynn [01:13:42] This one?

John Dehlin [01:13:42] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:13:43] And this was person right.

John Dehlin [01:13:46] Is it, is it cancer?

Shannon Flynn [01:13:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:13:49] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [01:13:52] If you smoke us. If you swell swell carcass smoothing.

John Dehlin [01:13:59] What's that smoking?

Shannon Flynn [01:14:01] Yes, I got that one. Never scold. I never smoked.

John Dehlin [01:14:08] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:14:08] In my life. In my hard life.

John Dehlin [01:14:09] And yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:14:11] So it's just, just bad luckity. Just, just yeah, I, I, I'm not kidding. We'll have to stop. I can't talk.

John Dehlin [01:14:25] Okay okay.

Shannon Flynn [01:14:27] If we can stock. I can try and.

John Dehlin [01:14:29] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [01:14:29] Yeah yeah. In 10 minutes to.

John Dehlin [01:14:31] Okay. Hey listeners, we're gonna, we're gonna take a break. I don't know if we'll continue but, but we're gonna take a break for now. Thanks for joining us. And we may or may not come back with the final segment with Shannon Flynn.

John Dehlin [01:14:48] Stay tuned or not. Thanks everybody. Listeners, we just gave yesterday was four hours and that that was, that was probably too much for Shannon given his kind of, you know, just given the stress of the conversation and everything. And so we realized that we need to if, if, you know, if and when we continue talking, it needs to be paced out a little bit better.

John Dehlin [01:15:19] So what we're going to do for now, I, I, I wanted to make sure Shannon was okay. He lied down. We talked about whether he needed medical attention and what we did. He, what he wanted to do was to just Maybe talk for 10 or 15 more minutes today and then maybe if and when he's feeling well and if and when schedules arise, we'll come back and, and talk more and because that would be super fun and meaningful, but for, for whatever time you have left, maybe, maybe I'll ask this.

John Dehlin [01:16:00] You were actually a suspect first before Mark, as I, as I recall. And I just want to know, like, why do you think like, why did they do that to you. And then. And then what was that like for you? And I know that you probably to this day maybe have some hard feelings about you being fingered, so to speak, and the way you were treated. So whatever you want to say about that.

Shannon Flynn [01:16:32] Well, of course I'll do the best I can, you know, here. So when I can't talk anymore, that's just the way it is for right now. But I'll be happy to do it in the future.

John Dehlin [01:16:44] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:16:44] To fill on. So we'll just do.

John Dehlin [01:16:45] I can. And I just want to be clear. I. I'm cool with this ending for today, but you. You said you wanted to go for just a little bit more, but this isn't me. Like, I don't want anyone to think that I'm kind of pressuring you to go. Go more. Right.

Shannon Flynn [01:16:57] Yeah. Well, I think that the police were quite sure that there were at least two or maybe three people that were involved with this. And they really went over Mark very fast. I mean, they went this over towards Mark. The ATF really feel a lot towards Mark. Then they found me and I think they wanted to find Brent Metcalf or Lynn Jacobs or they were just in the very starting time to go on somebody. And so with them being able to find that machine gun at my house, they were able to have a. I had to go. To go to. I had to go to jail. And I went in on a Friday.

John Dehlin [01:18:03] Because it was illegal to have a machine gun.

Shannon Flynn [01:18:06] Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:18:06] Because it was illegal to have a machine gun.

Shannon Flynn [01:18:09] Well, they just were gonna cause that like associated. Beginning to.

John Dehlin [01:18:14] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:18:15] In fact, they. They picked that up before they ever saw it. That's how you can be arrested the way they do. And so I went on a Friday night and then I came out on the Monday afternoon. I found a great attorney, James Newman Barber, who was just fantastic. He died some years ago. He had diabetes really badly. And seeing the movie is the first time I've ever seen James Barber again. It was amazing to see that. And the way wasn't I was. What I was being charged with was, hey, it's actually tax. Tax stamp thing. But so it was a federal thing. And that got. Had nothing to do with the bombs. It was just.

John Dehlin [01:19:19] They were like mail fraud or like

Shannon Flynn [01:19:22] picking, peeking, picking as fast as far as they could. And they wanted to have something to go against me. So that was it. So I got out of jail and I never was. I never went to. I was never. I never. It was eventually taken me away from that. So that took a year for that to happen. But they were using that as to push that against me because they thought that once they did that, then I would. They. I was going to tell them something about the bomber bombing. I never had anything to do with it. Never did.

John Dehlin [01:20:21] So how did that feel?

Shannon Flynn [01:20:25] It sucked. I was there on a Friday and the drunk tank.

John Dehlin [01:20:32] What does that mean? Oh, where the drunk people are.

Shannon Flynn [01:20:35] Put everybody on a Friday night. It was so full. I talked to an attorney, Brooks, sorry, I'm having a hard time. But she said don't talk to anybody. Quit talking to them. You should have said nothing to them. I didn't know any of that stuff. I was 27 years old.

John Dehlin [01:21:01] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:21:02] Didn't know what I was doing. You know, I was a Mormon. If you did something wrong, what do you do? Well, tell the truth. And then somebody says, okay, you're gonna re. Reduce from what you've done. Sorry. I'm having real problems.

Shannon Flynn [01:21:27] I kind of thought that should have said nothing the whole time. But I got out and I still thought it was something that was going to happen. I spent the night in the drunk tank laying on the floor.

Shannon Flynn [01:21:52] And then finally took out people to go up on the second and third floor. Of course there was no way I was gonna go out to see a judge or anything. So I was up on the third floor.

Shannon Flynn [01:22:08] Went in, took the clothes that I had on. I had garments on. And they would take one person at a time. Shannon Flynn, stand up there. Shirt blue. Here, Unlur. Undershirt, nothing. Pants, Levi's, whatever it was I had on, put them on everything. Cover garments, underwear, yes or no.

Arrest, Detention, and Aftermath

Shannon Flynn [01:22:48] You'd be surprised. The men that don't. Didn't wear underwear. Went through it all. No clothes went through like a high fire hose. But some people were being nice to me because I had some paper. One guy said to tell I'd never been in there before. He took it and went it through, held it up so it didn't get wet. I just then called me six, 10 men with no clothes on.

Shannon Flynn [01:23:23] Called you again. White T shirt, blue pants, plastic shoots, white boxer and in underwear. Got up to the place and had flea powder all over your stuff. Turn around. Then I went upstairs to the third floor. And of course that was living hell because.

Shannon Flynn [01:24:02] Friday through Friday, Saturday, Monday, I was the number one person on the TV news on all stations. And probably Saturday, Sunday, I don't know about Monday, because then I left. I was the number one people on the news for the first 10 or 15 minutes because they were just bigging up anything they could find about me, me, a picture when I was in high school, anything.

Shannon Flynn [01:24:44] We heard this. We heard this. This is why he's being arrested. And of course, I sat there and just watched. Well, everybody that was in my little section, they looked at me the whole time. And then I learned how to be in jail because I didn't know how to do any of it.

Shannon Flynn [01:25:12] Food would come, you know, red or orange or coffee. And the food, no plastic spoon, four pieces of bread, sloppy joe, some fruit cocktail. Just. That was. It just came in and there was a thing that you sat and ate, and then out it went.

Shannon Flynn [01:25:44] And then there was two tables, and there were eight people in my section. And then at night, it would come on at a light would come on, and then you had to get in on your bed before stopped.

Shannon Flynn [01:26:03] And if you were out, you just had to lay on the floor. I had one pillow and a square blanket, and there were some National Geographics to look at it because, of course, I watched the news. But then just whatever the state it was, I didn't bother watching because I was just. My whole life was coined down the toilet.

John Dehlin [01:26:38] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:26:40] And were you afraid? No. Everybody was nice to me. One guy was telling me what he was, why he was there, a black man, and he had been written some bad checks or something. So he was telling me when I left, then everybody else been figuring out who it was. Hey, don't sell us any packages. Don't send it to us. That was a Salt Lake City jail.

John Dehlin [01:27:17] You weren't afraid that you would be convicted for something? Why? That they would falsely convict you kind of thing?

Shannon Flynn [01:27:36] No, because that woman, she was a public defender, and she says, don't use me. Use this other guy that has a lot of experience in federal. So I said, okay. I actually talked to him on a telephone on Saturday, and he said, do you want me to be your attorney?

Shannon Flynn [01:28:00] Yes. So he came the next day, and it was a barrier. And he came with his secretary, my wife. She met him that day down at the Joe. At the jail. And he said, hello, don't worry about your son. I mean, your husband. It'll be okay.

Shannon Flynn [01:28:32] But we're going to go in, but I'm going to tell him you're my secretary. And she stood there and he said, don't worry, because anything you tell me, they can't use it against me. So he said, what about this? And what about this? He was there for 30 minutes.

Shannon Flynn [01:28:53] He said, tomorrow will come for bail. And so I went over with one ATF agent with cuffs like this just two of us. When I came back, oh, my gosh, there were so many people in the court, completely full.

Shannon Flynn [01:29:19] I couldn't understand any of it. At one point, he said, say not guilty. Now go night night. Guilty. I couldn't even. I couldn't even hear what was going on because they were talking. They were talking. They were talking, judge. Blah, blah. I didn't know what the hell was going on.

Shannon Flynn [01:29:45] He figured out a $50,000 recognizance so I didn't have to come up with any money. Otherwise, I don't know how I would have even gotten out of. Out of jail.

John Dehlin [01:30:01] What does that mean, recognizance?

Shannon Flynn [01:30:04] What it was is he told them that he will send. He will sign a thing that says that if I don't come back, he will owe you $50,000. You don't have to come up with any money.

John Dehlin [01:30:22] It's like bail, but you don't have to put any money up.

Shannon Flynn [01:30:25] Mark had to come up with money.

John Dehlin [01:30:27] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:30:28] But I didn't.

John Dehlin [01:30:29] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:30:30] And so I went over, and it was like this. And I said to the gal, I said, can they take this off? She said, bill or something. Come here. Does he have to. To undo this? And he looked and, no, I don't think so. He said, I can't. So I just.

Shannon Flynn [01:30:53] And then when I went down, they put on as much chain and crap as they could. The ATF had made me look as. As bad as they could. So in the movie, you saw me. I seem like I'm stupid. I'm not stupid.

Shannon Flynn [01:31:12] But I'd say I'd spent 20 minutes getting all this crap on there just to make me look bad. They were laughing at me. And so I went in the van, and every reporter. You can't see it, but every reporter, camera, everything, were just going crazy. And people were yelling at me. Hey, Shannon, you know, and trying to. Hey, buddy.

Shannon Flynn [01:31:44] Hey. All that. And so they said something, and that's why I was kind of. Hey. But it was just because something said to me. So I went back to the jail, and I didn't have to go up. They gave me my dirty clothes back.

Shannon Flynn [01:32:05] One of the. One of the jailers said, sorry, dude. I knew you were kind of a. An orange amongst the oranges here. I said, well,

John Dehlin [01:32:22] just an orange among the oranges.

Shannon Flynn [01:32:24] Oh, no. An orange amongst the apples.

John Dehlin [01:32:27] Oh, what is that? What do you think?

Shannon Flynn [01:32:28] Well, because I didn't look like the regular.

John Dehlin [01:32:30] What do you think? He. What do you think he meant by that?

Shannon Flynn [01:32:32] He was just trying to. Oh, well, okay. I'm sorry. Once again, I'm gonna. I can't talk too much longer.

John Dehlin [01:32:39] No, no, let's end with this as soon as you want to end.

Shannon Flynn [01:32:42] So let me finish with this one. He knew that Lynn Jacobs. Well, he said I went to a thing with John. Lynn Jacobs is part of this. But I went to this thing where Lynn was giving a. Giving a talk just maybe a few months before that, because Lynn was there talking about some of his first times. He was taking things in. I'm sorry, with Lynn was. What's the right word? He's gay.

John Dehlin [01:33:38] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:33:40] And this guy was gay, too. That's what he was doing. Kind of. I saw him that. And I really liked him. And I could tell you were not the right person in here. I just left. I didn't know what to say. Hi. All I wanted to do is get the hell out of there.

John Dehlin [01:34:01] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:34:02] And so they just let me out. Went up the thing where the cars go and went around, halfway around. And my wife was at my attorney's office, of course. Then we hugged as well as she could stand after all the time I'd been in, you know, being in jail. And then I talked to Jim Barber, and he said, here, Kay, go home and come back on Tuesday or something. And let's go through this and stuff like that. When I come back, I'll tell about the. When you take detector. Sorry, I can't say the right word.

John Dehlin [01:34:56] Don't worry about it.

Shannon Flynn [01:34:57] But he made me pay $600 to see if I was the lie detector test. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:35:03] Okay.

Shannon Flynn [01:35:04] Yes, I can tell you all about that. And I scored very high.

John Dehlin [01:35:09] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:35:10] And part of it was for Jim.

John Dehlin [01:35:12] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:35:13] Because he needed to know in his old guts.

John Dehlin [01:35:18] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:35:18] Whether I really was not or not.

John Dehlin [01:35:20] Jim was who?

Shannon Flynn [01:35:21] That was my attorney.

John Dehlin [01:35:22] Okay. You wanted. You did that for him.

Shannon Flynn [01:35:25] Well, of course we paid that.

John Dehlin [01:35:27] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:35:27] I mean, I paid that. And he sent that to the police, too.

John Dehlin [01:35:30] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:35:31] But it was partially from him.

John Dehlin [01:35:33] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:35:34] Because he knew that any attorney, you have to work with somebody, and you sometimes have criminals that will tell you as an attorney, your defense attorney, what you really did, and then you have some that will keep lying to you. So at some point you need to find out.

John Dehlin [01:35:59] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:35:59] Which is which.

John Dehlin [01:36:00] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:36:01] So

John Dehlin [01:36:03] I'll come back.

Shannon Flynn [01:36:04] I'll try to come back and we can talk.

John Dehlin [01:36:07] No, let me just say I. I really am grateful for you. I really adore you in all the appropriate ways. I'm so glad you came. I'm so sorry that today this stuff happened. But I. I respect you and I admire you and I'm really grateful you made the trip.

John Dehlin [01:36:30] Yesterday in and of itself was just amazing. I'm sad today didn't happen, but your health is literally all that matters. And if I'm at all sad, it's just that I really believe in letting people tell their stories. And I hope I wasn't too aggressive or I hope I wasn't demeaning or insulting to you in any way. I, I only. My. My heart was only in helping give you a chance to like, correct the. The misperceptions and the mean things that people say and to let you address the hard questions so that people would. To the best, so that reasonable people, not you, can never control the mean people or the people that are just hurt or wanting to hurt others, but for the people who are reasonable and honest so that they could just hear you tell your story. That's what I was trying to do. And I feel bad that I probably. Maybe I pressed you too hard or stressed you out.

Shannon Flynn [01:37:35] I don't know. Yeah. It's not your fault. It's just this is the way I am, the way I'm living right now. And I'll come back and I would be happy to have people send questions to you.

John Dehlin [01:37:47] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:37:48] Because. Because I'm the same way. I don't want to put up with the crazy, creepy, crazy people.

John Dehlin [01:37:55] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:37:55] But somebody that really has a good question when I come back, then you say, hey, this guy said this. I'm not saying. Sure. Yeah, I'll tell you what I can. Yeah, I'll tell you what I can't.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] Yeah.

Final Reflections on Mark Hofmann

Shannon Flynn [01:38:07] I'll tell you my guess.

John Dehlin [01:38:09] Yeah.

Shannon Flynn [01:38:09] And there'll be parts that I just say. Yeah, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:38:12] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll. I'll. I'll. I'll bring you back as soon as you feel rested and ready, and you just tell me when. And. But, but mostly I'm sorry for what happened to you. I'm sorry that you got caught up with such a horrible person. And I'm sorry that, you know, one of the things I want to talk to you about is what this, what your life has been like since then. Because how. How do you live after this? But we can talk about that later. But I'm sorry that you've had to endure all that. And I'm. And I'm. I imagine it's been really hard. And so I just want you to know you have my.

Shannon Flynn [01:38:57] My love and respect been very nice coming here. Very, very nice. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:39:01] Yeah.

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