Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is April 23, 2021, and I'm so excited to be back in the saddle again doing Mormon Stories podcast interviews. Obviously, last week was a traumatic week. It was the excommunication of Natasha Helfer, my dear friend and colleague and beloved mental health professional, to the Mormon people. A bunch of friends and me, we traveled to Kansas, Wichita, Kansas, and we attended or we were there to support Natasha and her discip council. We were hoping she would not be excommunicated because she did not want to be excommunicated. And unfortunately, she was excommunicated. She wasn't even allowed to enter her disciplinary council. They said it was because she wouldn't turn off her phone, but they did not tell her in advance that she would not be allowed to have her phone on. And she had all her notes from the disciplinary council on her phone. And so they wouldn't let her in. And it was a really crazy scene. They had cop cars waiting to escort us all off the premises. It was just not fun. But Natasha was amazing and there was so much love and support there. And I just want to say Natasha was excommunicated because she's been a public advocate for science based, evidence based mental health and sexual health. And that's literally why they excommunicated her in 2021. And while I was traveling with some friends, I learned that there are at least seven disciplinary councils that are in various stages right now throughout the United States. And that's just the immediate ones that I'm aware of. I think I can probably think of up to right now. And what that made me think of is something sort of a macro phenomenon. I shared an episode a week or two ago about the Mormon Spring. I really do believe that one of the awesome things about COVID is that now that it's ending and all these people got used to being away from weekly church activity and they had so much time to enjoy their lives and they had so much time to do things on Sundays and enjoy their Sundays. And just because the work keeps moving forward, what we're seeing is what I'm calling a Mormon Spring, which is more people awakening to the realities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, for better, for worse. And more people taking back their lives, becoming spiritually and emotionally and psychologically awakened and taking control of not living the lives that someone else wanted them to live or that they inherited, but instead living the life that they want to live. And I'm calling it the Mormon Spring. We're seeing many, many, many, many people wake up and it's really exciting. And when I say wake up, I don't necessarily mean leave the church. At Mormon Stories, we literally don't care. I literally don't care if you stay or leave the church. It is all about, do you have informed consent when you're in church, when you're born into the church or raised in the church, or convert to the church, is it done through informed consent? And then is it harming you? And do you know everything that you should know about the church to make an informed decision? And that's all we care about. And that if you leave the church, you can have a healthy transition to find healing and joy outside of it. So having said all that, Mormon Spring, it's awesome. Happy to be back. And there is a Mormon purge going on. I'm calling it right now. I'm calling it the 2021 post Covid Mormon Purge, where people are being summoned to disciplinary councils en masse. Our theory is, is that before COVID when the church changed its policies around disciplinary councils, changing their names from disciplinary council to members, and then changing the term excommunication to withdrawal of membership. This was in reaction to the fact that we've made excommunication a celebration and a sacrament. Whether it's mine or Bill Reals or Jeremy Runnels or Sam Young's or Lee and Cody Young, all the different egregious, barbaric, medieval excommunications. We've sort of shown up, brought the cameras, had parties, had celebrations, honored the people involved. That's the way to deal with the church's approaches. And so what the church does is it changes the names. And so a banana is still a banana, but they're going to call the banana a thingamabob and try and get everyone to think that bananas don't exist anymore. But they still do. Bananas still exist, excommunications are still happening, disciplinary councilors are still happening, and the church in 2021 is going after people.

Neesha Brost [00:04:27] And.

John Dehlin [00:04:28] And ironically. Not ironically, probably not ironically, probably intentionally. What we learned is that in the same week that Natasha Alfort Parker was experiencing a disciplinary council herself and getting excommunicated, another amazing couple that is well known on the Mormon TikTok scene was also being summoned to disciplinary actions by their church leadership. And so what we're doing today is we're interviewing that couple and the couple is Nisha and Kyle Brost. They are also Joining us via livestream from Kansas, Nisha and Kyle. Welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Neesha Brost [00:05:08] Hi there. Thanks for having us.

Kyle Brost [00:05:10] Yeah, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:05:11] Yeah, it's such a treat. And I've been on the Mormon TikTok for a while now. It's an amazing place. We've interviewed at least three TikTokers so far. Mitch, Kayla, and Nuance Ho Kara. And I think you guys are fourth. And I just think TikTok's so amazing because instead of getting hundreds of listens on a podcast or thousands of listens on a podcast or tens of thousands of views on, you know, on. On YouTube, TikTok, because the videos are so short, they're one minute, you have the chance to have tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or even millions of views. And so TikTok's amazing. It's an amazing community. Nisha and Kyle, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Kyle Brost [00:06:00] Thank you. I agree with all that. TikTok is this amazing platform that gives people quick access to stories and in ways that they really couldn't get before. And so we feel really privileged to be a part of that platform. The post Mormon, ex Mormon. Honestly, the ex religious community on TikTok is phenomenal. And so we're. We feel really proud and privileged to be a part of that. I also just want to mention real quick, John, that you also had the four women on from TikTok, when you talked about. I think you talked about kind of patriarchy, of misogyny.

John Dehlin [00:06:34] Absolutely unlearning Mormon misogyny. We had four amazing TikTokers. So this is my fifth TikTok interview, and I'm really thrilled. So thanks for joining us.

Kyle Brost [00:06:44] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:06:45] So, you know, the. You guys are awesome. We want to celebrate your story. We want to celebrate your TikTok experiences, and we want to talk about you guys being summoned to a disciplinary council, facing excommunication simply for tiktoking. Like, what church excommunicates tiktokers? I don't know. But we're not going to talk about that until the end because we want everyone to hear your story first. So, yeah, why don't you. Why don't we have each of you introduce yourselves just briefly, and then we'll. Oh, we should probably say the name of your amazing TikTok channel. What's the name of your TikTok channel?

Neesha Brost [00:07:19] Challenge Faith.

John Dehlin [00:07:21] Challenge Faith. Okay, so everyone pause this interview, go to TikTok, subscribe to challenge Faith, come back and. And keep. Keep going. Okay, so why don't you guys each introduce yourselves and then We'll. We'll just jump right into your Mormon story.

Meet Neesha and Kyle Brost

Neesha Brost [00:07:35] Sure. I'm Nisha. Been married to Kyle for 14 years. And I don't know what else you really want to say about ourselves.

John Dehlin [00:07:44] No, that's okay. That's okay. Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Brost [00:07:47] And I'm Kyle, Kyle Brost. And like Nisha said, we've been married 14 years. We've been in Kansas pretty much that whole time. So that's one thing that people sometimes navigate toward in our story is that we are not a Utah Mormon family, although we know we look just like. Just like a Mormon Utah family. We're not from Utah. We've never lived in Utah, actually. And so our experience has been outside of kind of that Utah environment as we've been raised in the church, as we've lived our lives in the church. You know, I'm 38 years old. Nisha is 33. So we spent, you know, 30 years as members of the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [00:08:30] Excellent. Okay, well, we've got a great audience joining us today. We've got right now over 400 people joining us on YouTube and on Facebook and lots of love coming from specifically the TikTok community. So, for example, one of my favorite tiktokers, Kimberly Anderson, is joining us. And she said thank you for mentioning the amazing women, Kyle. And then earlier, Kimberly also says, oh, yay, awesome TikTok friends to listen to while doing notes. Break a leg. So, Kimberly, we love you. We love everyone who's joined us today. We would love any of you who've joined us live to comment on YouTube or on Facebook because we love your questions and comments. But without any further ado, let's. Let's hear your guys Mormon story. What we'll do is we'll kind of go back and forth a little bit. And so we'll start with kind of the childhood Mormon upbringing kind of childhood years. You guys. You guys know the Mormon stories drill. Nisha, why don't we start with you, if that's okay?

Neesha's Mormon Upbringing in Liberty, Missouri

Neesha Brost [00:09:34] Sure. I grew up in Liberty, Missouri. I am the middle of seven kids. I grew up Mormon born and raised in the covenant. And I think what makes my upbringing a little bit unique and is that my parents divorced when I was about 13. And at that time, my mom became. She worked outside of the home a little bit before that as well. And we relied heavily on church members for our upbringing. My mom did a lot. She. I'm not going to downplay what she did for us, but a lot of the rearing and teaching was done by members of the Ward, you know, specifically my young women's leaders, and then for my little brothers, their young men's leaders. And. And so I felt like they shaped my testimony, my belief system, and things like that. Not that we didn't do a lot of those, like, read your scriptures, pray, and things like that at home, but they were the ones who enforced all of those things for me. And it was me looking in on their families, thinking like, oh, well, if I want a family to be happy, I need to do what they're doing. And so for a long time, I just. I immersed myself into their families and into their lives and just tried to do what they told me to do. And I think our family kind of became like the poster family of the ward. You know, we had a lot of good people helping us, giving us things when we needed. I mean, we relied heavily on, like, the church, the church's welfare system, too, growing up. So we thought Deseret was a brand. Right.

John Dehlin [00:11:17] Oh, wow.

Neesha Brost [00:11:19] We. I loved the church growing up because fulfilled me and gave me a sense of identity and gave me the confidence I needed in life, and it validated my experiences. So I. If, you know, if the missionaries had asked me to go do something, I would go help them. If, you know, another person in the war needed some help, I would go help them, because that's where I felt like I was earning my worth. Right. And so.

John Dehlin [00:11:51] Hey, Nisha, are you feeling emotional right now? I'm just curious. Am I hearing that right?

Neesha Brost [00:11:56] I'm always emotional.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] Okay. What's that emotion about? I just. I like to always kind of just understand what's behind that emotion.

Neesha Brost [00:12:05] Sure. Just remembering such good people. And I just always grew up thinking, like, these people were literally placed in Liberty for me. And, you know, now looking back, I reframe a lot of experiences, and I still. I still believe in some type of divine. So I still believe that our paths cross for reasons. Right. Like, I am grateful for all of those wonderful humans who helped me. And I just. This emotion is a lot of love and also maybe a little bit. A little bit of sadness of what they might think of me.

Kyle Brost [00:12:43] Now.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] That makes total. That makes total sense.

Neesha Brost [00:12:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] Okay, so what I've heard so far is you kind of had a tougher, rougher family upbringing and your Mormon ward in. Is it Liberty?

Neesha Brost [00:12:57] Yes, Liberty, Missouri.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] Liberty, Missouri. Your Mormon ward in Liberty, Missouri, was a really important part of your upbringing.

Neesha Brost [00:13:04] It was huge. And I think that most of my siblings would probably say that as well.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Yeah. So what were your favorite parts about church? From either primary into young women's. What are some of your fondest memories of being a Mormon?

Neesha Brost [00:13:20] Just my friend system probably in that as well. I think that there was responsibility given, there was praise given. It was a lot of the things that I wasn't getting at home that I loved at church. Right. Just the community and feeling like I fit in. And I loved girls camp and I loved, you know, getting a calling or being asked to speak. I loved all of those things.

John Dehlin [00:13:46] Yeah. Nisha, I'm really relating to you because my parents got divorced when I was in middle school and I feel like the church raised me as well. So. Yeah, I have just so many amazing memories of being a Mormon, which. Which makes having doubts more complicated. Right. Because you don't come from a place of hating the church, you come from a place of loving the church, right?

Neesha Brost [00:14:06] I do, yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:07] Yeah. Okay, so young women's. Did you do early morning seminary?

Neesha Brost [00:14:12] Yeah, I did early morning seminary for a long time. My last year I actually had, because of my family situation, we helped out financially quite a bit as teenagers. And so my last year as a senior, I actually started working at a gym in the local town and I opened the gym at like 5:30. So I just did seminary kind of on my own. And that was one thing that I remember, like my mom being so proud that I would like go to the gym. I would open it up and then I would read my scriptures while I was at work. And I remember just, just doing all of the little things that are you're supposed to do, you know, all those little primary answers. Go to church, read your scriptures, pray. If I was showing people I was doing those things and checking off those boxes and then they would praise me for them. I just felt very, I was like, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. There's nothing else in life that matters. So I did seminary and then I went to BYU Idaho and so graduated early and then went to BYU Idaho in January. So I did my last year of seminary like half year. That makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:15:18] Got it. Let me ask you, and I ask, I asked this every time and I always want to ask it carefully. Well, what, what was. Okay, let me ask it in this way. So one of the things that I'm realizing about Mormonism and I think this is true about all high demand religions, unfortunately, you know, one of the, we've, we've already started talking about the positive. One of the negative things about high demand religions is it seem, it seems like shame is part of the business model and what I mean, by that is they need you, the religions need you to need them.

Neesha Brost [00:15:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:56] And so they need you to, they need you to need the atonement, they need you to need to be forgiven, they need you to need to speak to the bishop. And basically they need you to feel like there's something wrong with you so that they can put themselves forward as the cure, as the answer. And so we've talked a billion times on Mormon stories about the ways that youth can not only feel loved, but also feel shamed and guilty. Is shame and guilt any part of, let's just say, your teenage years prior to byu, Idaho, and if so, is there anything you're comfortable sharing about that? Or was that not? I mean, obviously there's word of wisdom, love, chastity are kind of the things that I just, I'm curious if shame was at all part of your upbringing.

Neesha Brost [00:16:42] To be honest, I am a really good rule follower. I mean, pat myself on the back. If somebody told me not to do something, I didn't do it. And that is something like my mom, we just had a conversation the other day. She's like, you know, if any of the other siblings were struggling, I would tell them to follow you because you just always seem like you knew what you were doing. So if they told me not to wear shorts, you know, that came too high. I wasn't going to wear shorts that came too high. If they told me not to drink coffee, I'm not going to drink coffee. You know, if my mom told me to be home by 11, I was going to be home by 11. So I think that in regards to like the law of chastity and word of wisdom, things like that, there wasn't shame or guilt, but the shame and guilt came from, did I read long enough? Did I pray hard enough? Am I actually listening to the spirit? Am I, am I actually like understanding this enough? Am I being a, am I being a good missionary? I was like on fire as a missionary as a teenager, you know, I worked with a lot of people who weren't lds and so I was constantly telling people about Mormonism, how happy it made me and why they should do it. And I remember one experience where I was with my peers, so a bunch of other 17 year old kids and they were laughing at me about Joseph Smith story and finding the gold plates and I was just like mortified. But I was like, all I'm going to do is I'm going to bear my testimony, they're going to feel the spirit and they're probably Going to want to convert. So I did, you know, I formed my testimony, and then they laughed at me. So I was like, wait a minute, it didn't work. And then I remember going right after that to this little nanny job I had with one of the families in the ward. And I told him this experience, the father of the family. And then I just, like, started sobbing, and he's like, it's okay, you know, you just cast your pearls before swine. It's fine. And at that moment, you know, I look back now and I'm like, wait a minute. Did he know that they were the father of the family? Did he know there was multiple accounts of the first vision? Did he know all these things? Like, why didn't somebody tell me at that time when I was like, casting my. My pearls before swine that maybe this wasn't how it went, Right? Like, I gave so much to. Maybe some. Some things that I learned later weren't real or true. So the shame only came from me every day, going through my checklist of like, was I good enough? Was I a better missionary? Did I follow Jesus? Did I follow God? Was I a good example to my siblings? So it just came from me picking apart myself.

John Dehlin [00:19:09] Got it. That's. I mean, that reminds me a tiny bit of kind of what. What's referred to as scrupulosity, which is like hyper religiosity, like, can I do better? Can I do better? So, okay, so you did attend some seminary. What did the gospel mean to either the gospel or, you know, the church history? Like, growing up, when you thought about your testimony, what was your testimony based on? And what did the gospel and. Or the church leaders or its history kind of mean to you up through. Up before you went to high. To college, basically.

Neesha Brost [00:19:41] So growing up, like I said, I grew up in Liberty, Missouri. And if anyone knows their church history, well, there is a jail there called the Liberty Jail. And Joseph Smith spent some time there because he was persecuted, and so he was put in jail. We would visit that jail a lot as youth for, you know, our young men and young women's activities. And I would take friends there because, again, I was like, oh, they're going to feel the spirit. So when looking back, I feel like my testimony was built upon Jesus as my Savior. And I feel like Jesus as my savior and heavenly Father as my Father in heaven, because I didn't feel like I had a father here on earth that really. That gave me what I needed. So I relied heavily on this eternal family that I was going to Someday meet. Right. And so I. Because Kyle and I talked about this quite a bit after leaving and after learning more about church history. I don't know if my testimony was based solely on church history, even though I was immersed in it. We went to Liberty Jail, and we also went to Nauvoo, Illinois, a lot, so. So I knew quite a bit of the church history that was being taught to me, but really it was that Jesus, he spoke to Joseph Smith, and he can speak to me, and Jesus atoned for me, and Jesus will tell me how to live my life now. So it was really based upon. If I had faith in Jesus, then I can do anything.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] I love it. And this is part of what's so complicated. There are some people who, when they're angry about Mormonism, they just want to feel like it's all bad, it's all evil. They've all been deceived. It's. You know, they. Sometimes the cult word is used. What's complicated is. Is that. That has not been my experience. My experience is that if you're. If you come from a certain socioeconomic background or if you are lucky enough to have the right environment, the church can be exactly what you need when you need it, and be super healthy for you at certain points in your life, such that it's not just this one big, awful experience. Anisha, what I'm hearing from you is those beliefs about God, about Jesus loving heavenly Father and Jesus and eternal families, that was really valuable. And the economic support, the church, food and financial support, whatever it was, the fast offerings, et cetera. It sounds like the church was actually just a really positive influence in your life.

Neesha Brost [00:22:29] Yeah, it definitely was. I loved it, and I was willing to do whatever they told me to do because I trusted it and believed it and lived it every day.

John Dehlin [00:22:40] Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. And so shout out to the LDS Church in any religion that. That helps people when they need help. It's complicated. Right?

Neesha Brost [00:22:50] So complicated.

John Dehlin [00:22:52] Okay, Nisha, anything else you want to mention about your story prior to byu, Idaho, before we jump over to Kyle's upbringing?

Neesha Brost [00:23:00] No, I think that that sums it up.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] Okay. All right. Thanks, Isha. Kyle, let's jump to you. Tell us about your Mormon upbringing.

Kyle's Mormon Upbringing and Early Faith

Kyle Brost [00:23:07] All right, so I. I was born in the Covenant. So my. My mom and dad were sealed in the temple before I was born. I'm the one out of three. I have an older brother and an older sister. I'm the one out of the three of us who was born in the Covenant. And for some reason, that was always kind of a thing that I took pride in, that I was born in the Covenant. I kind of got this, like, special sense of I'm somehow more special than my brother and sister, which I still believe, but for different reasons.

John Dehlin [00:23:40] I call that. I call that Nephi complex, by the way.

Kyle Brost [00:23:43] All right, that sounds about right. So I was born in the covenant. Until I was about 7 or so, our life was pretty ordinary. I grew up in Wyoming, rural community. We attended church. My dad was in the bishopric. My mom was, I don't know, probably in Relief Society president. And then when I was about 7, my parents got a divorce. And it was a really messy divorce. A lot of custody battles, a lot of fighting, a lot of kind of pulling us as kids, different directions. And so that's when things got a little bit interesting. My dad grew inactive, and my mom stayed active and became, I think, even more orthodox in Mormonism after that. And there was always this interesting tension after the divorce. Anytime I lived with my dad, which I spent quite a bit living with my dad because I had to choose between the two. I spent quite a bit of my time living with my dad. And there was always this odd tension of if I was living with my dad, I was in, like, spiritual danger. And my mom made that very overt. She was very outspoken about that, that if I was with my dad, I was in spiritual danger. And so there were these, like, big fights and battles to try to get me to live with her because she was living the gospel and the church, whereas my dad was inactive. And so there was this weird, interesting tension that kind of happened during that time period, really from about the age of seven to, you know, until I moved in with my mom in high school. But even though my dad was inactive, a lot of our family were still active. So I got baptized at 8. My father did baptize me, similar to Nisha. We really had no money. We used church welfare. My grandmother worked on a reservation, and we were able to actually get some food from the reservation when it was just my dad and I, and we were getting kicked out of houses and sleeping in cars. So that period was like just a. It just. It just a. It was just a cluster. I wish there was a better word, but it was just a. It was kind of a messy period of life, a really difficult period of life. I had a strong attachment to my father. I always loved and respected him a lot. And having my mom kind of constantly pull and treat me as though I was in danger for those years was really difficult. But I did, for the most part, stay active. I kept going to church. Even times when my dad wasn't going to church, I would go to church. I had a lot of friends in the church, and so I stayed active through all of those years. And I moved quite a bit. I lived in Alaska and, I don't know, five or six other states with my father. When high school hit, my parents made me choose where I needed to be for all of high school. And my mom had moved back to Wyoming, where I was kind of most familiar and had most of my family at. And so starting high school, I moved in with my mom, who had remarried. Her husband, when they married, was. Was Catholic. After about two years of being married, he converted to Mormonism and became very orthodox Mormon, very religiously strict. And. And so he became kind of the priesthood figure, the male role model that I saw throughout high school. I attended seminary. I graduated se. I was, you know, the prescorm advisor, all of those things. So high school was. I was. I was active. I did all of this stuff. I showed up for church. I went to seminary. But I also was just. I was constantly torn because I think I just have a bit of a rebellious nature. So I was constantly torn. I drank alcohol. I did some drugs. You know, I. I was a virgin when we got married, But I had fooled around some, and I had this. I think, because I was active, was going to seminary, I was going to church every Sunday, but I was still doing this other stuff every few weekends. I did develop a pretty severe kind of guilt and shame cycle where I can. I don't know if anybody else can relate to this, but I would come home drunk out of my mind, and I would still get down on my knees and, like, beg for forgiveness. So I'd be like. It was just this constant, weird cycle. And it was something that I never felt like I could quite get, like, control of because I wanted to be popular. I wanted to. I wanted to go out and have fun. I wanted to do these things. I enjoyed the recognition that came from being popular and being at parties, but I still felt this pull toward the church. And just to give you a sense of, like, how rebellious I was, so I was. This is so stupid. But I was voted most likely to be president of a frat house in high school.

John Dehlin [00:28:37] Wow.

Kyle Brost [00:28:38] When I graduated high school, all of the teachers got together and gave me a special award that they created called the Living on the Edge award. But it was this weird dynamic because I would. On one hand in the world, I was this rebellious Kid who was always out, like, partying, doing stuff. And then on the other hand, I would show up to church, and people would be like, I love your testimony. Can you please just. They would ask me to speak, they would ask me to teach, they would ask me to do this stuff. And they were always complimenting me on my testimony and on my speaking and on my teaching. And so it was like these two dichotomous worlds that I was living in, and it created a lot of internal conflict.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] Yeah. Wow, that's fascinating, Kyle. I don't know how often it is that the Mormon kid gets voted as the most likely to. To be the president of a frat house, but that's a cool story. I like it. Let me ask you the same question I asked Nisha. It sounds like you had quite a turbulent family life for many, many of those early years. And I'm wondering to what extent you kind of even thank the church or look fondly on the church for ultimately providing your family with structure, with. With values, with meaning, with purpose, with community. And I'm not trying to seed that. I'm just curious whether that's how you view it.

Kyle Brost [00:30:02] I do, because honestly, I think, and I have no, you know, counterpoint, so I can't prove this, but I do think because of my nature, I don't know if without the church, I would have gone on to have a successful career the way that I have. I don't know that I would have continued to pursue education at the level that I have, because I did have this kind of dichotomous experience. And so I sometimes wonder if without the church, I would have just gone all the way to partying, to, you know, if I would have fully embraced that kind of frat boy life. So I do think the church served a very good purpose in my life at the time. It gave me. Even though I was doing all of that, it gave me a reason to want to aspire to more. It gave me a reason to want to achieve more. It gave me a reason to have some sort of boundaries around morality. And I'm not saying that there aren't 100 other ways to do that, but that's the way that I had. So I do think it served a really meaningful and valuable purpose at that time.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] Love it. That's so complicated that we have to admit that the church is so helpful for so many people, and it's such a stark contrast to then when it becomes toxic or even damaging. It's just. It's part of why Mormon stories exist is because it's so complicated. So, Kyle, what were the parts of Mormon doctrine or theology as a teen that really, really spoke to you? What was your testimony kind of built on back then?

Missions, Testimonies, and Young Adulthood

Kyle Brost [00:31:36] Honestly, I think early on, especially through high school, my testimony was really just that that's what I saw other people doing. So when I looked at successful families that I was exposed to, when I looked at families that maybe I aspired to be like, and I'd been taught, right, that that's what you aspire to is this family, this nuclear family, when I saw ones that I respected and loved and aspired to, they were Mormon families. And so through high school, I don't think I really had a testimony of the gospel. What actually happened is when I graduated high school, I had a decision to make. I didn't actually know if I wanted to serve a mission right after I graduated high school. So I had to make a decision. Am I going to serve a mission or not? This was in 2001. So at the time, my father lived on an island in Alaska, and I'd gone up there and worked every single summer. So I knew the island, I knew the people. When I graduated high school, two weeks after I graduated, I moved up to the island. I bought the Missionary reference library, which was a series of books at the time. I don't know what books are in it now, but I bought the missionary reference Library. I got my quad and I moved up there. And I was like, all right, for three months at least, I'm just going to consume all of this information. I'm going to live like the life that I think a Mormon should live. And I'm going to see if by doing that, I want to serve a mission, which I understand all, you know, the problematic issues about that at this stage, but. So that's what I did. I moved up to this island in Alaska where virtually nobody lived. I started reading the Missionary reference library. I started reading the Book of Mormon. I was up there two weeks, and I get a call from the district president out of Anchorage, and the district president says, the branch president's moving. Your father's not worthy. Will you be the branch president? So here I am. I'm 18 years old. I'm a priest, which a lot of people don't know this. You can serve as a branch president, as a priest. I'm living proof of that.

John Dehlin [00:33:44] I've never heard of that before. For.

Kyle Brost [00:33:46] Yeah, so nobody's going to fly 850 miles to come, you know, set me apart or ordain me as A elder. So at 18, no experience, you know, getting drunk. Probably four weeks before that, I get called as branch president. And so I spent that whole, that whole summer and some past serving as a branch president, reading voraciously, the missionary reference library. And you know, it wasn't too long into that before I decided that, yeah, this is like serving a mission is really what I. What I'm supposed to do. And funny story, this is total tangent, but funny story. So first Sunday again, keep in mind, I'm 18 years old. I have no idea what I'm doing as a branch president. Nobody came to train me because the island is so remote. The first Sunday I show up and I. I like prepared and over prepared and I was ready for everything. And we go through all the routine of Sunday and we get to the point where I'm going to give a talk. And so I get up and I'm about to give this speech, this talk, and one of the sisters in the ward branch, one of the sisters raises her hand and it was odd because it was sacrament meeting. And I'm like, what are you raising your hand for? Anyway, I asked her and she goes, do you think we could have the sacrament? And I had totally just gone on. I was in my zone. But that's kind of how it went for the next several months as a branch president at 18. But I did decide to go on a mission. So I put in my papers, applied, and apparently they had lowered the bar and so I was able to go and serve a mission.

John Dehlin [00:35:27] Tell us really quickly about how your mission was for you.

Kyle Brost [00:35:31] So that's. It was hell, honestly. My mission was I. So keep in mind that when I graduated high school, I tried so hard to be worthy to go on a mission. I make jokes about the bar being low enough, but I gave every. Literally, in Alaska, I gave everything. I read every morning at lunch during work, I would go and I would read. At night I would read. I stayed away from anything that could possibly be sin. I prepared myself as well as I possibly could to go on my mission, and that was recognized. When I got onto my mission, I trained after two transfers. So three months in, I became a trainer, a district president quickly, and the mission president would call. I had a very good relationship with my mission president, would call and we would talk about a lot of things. I was successful, I was respected, and I tried very hard to be worthy of being a missionary. And I did a good job of it. I was out about eight months and I started to have some issues, some, some physical issues. And it turned out that I had developed an autoimmune disease called ulcerative colitis. And back then, this was, you know, almost 20 years ago, there wasn't a lot of good treatments. It was kind of. You tried what they had, and if it didn't work, then they would remove. Remove a lot of your colon. So I was out eight months, developed symptoms. I stayed out for another four months, trying different treatments, trying to stay as a missionary, battling it constantly. If you have ulcerative colitis and it's not getting treated very well, you can have very urgent needs to use the restroom. It can be very embarrassing. I can remember standing in people's homes profusely sweating because I really needed to find a restroom. So it was embarrassing. It was difficult. But I felt like I was doing what God wanted me to be doing. I was doing what the Lord wanted me to be doing. And so if I just stayed faithful, then he would take it away from me. He would take it from me, and I would be able to finish serving out this mission. But after about four months, it became pretty clear that that wasn't going to be a possibility and that I needed to have more serious treatment. So I came home from my mission after a year. And that.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] Let me just ask you. In my mind, this kind of formula is shaping up that I've started talking about a little bit. And we've already talked about the fact that the church helps people, and that's kind of what makes them, you know, attracted to it, what makes them want to be in it, what makes them loyal to it. And there's always kind of this worthiness component where you always feel like you need to do better, you got to do better, you're not worthy, and. And then kind of the church puts you to work. But it may or may not be that the actual things the church is having you participate in is necessarily what you would be doing if you had all the information or what's actually healthy for you. And so the tension is what happens when you love the church, but you feel unworthy, and then you're doing things that aren't necessarily healthy for you in your best interest. And I think that's really the crux of what so many people right now are struggling with, is that. And it sounds like the mission wasn't a great experience for you, but you were like, you were gonna be a great missionary because you needed to be worthy and because you felt like you owed the church this service because they had helped you. Is. Is that a fair way to Try and summarize what you're experiencing. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I'm just trying to conceptualize this thing I've been thinking about.

Kyle Brost [00:39:34] Yeah, I think it. I think it's fair, and I think that's very true. I think. I think the dilemma is you're given these tools and told that these tools are the tools for life. But then not only do you run into situations where those tools don't work, sometimes the church is what creates that situation.

John Dehlin [00:39:53] Right.

Kyle Brost [00:39:53] The very tool they're giving you doesn't work for. And that's what my mission was, is it had created this situation where if I had just developed an autoimmune disease in the world, it would have just been an autoimmune disease. But because I was a missionary, I came home to questions about, you know, some people knew my background, but I came home to questions about worthiness. I came home to accusations that I must have done something terrible. As a missionary, I received more blessings than I can count, telling me that I would be healed. I had people telling me, giving me, you know, prophetic, just like, if you work hard enough and you go back out, you'll be blessed beyond your wildest dreams. This is just a challenge God's giving you. And it was like. Like this. Every tool the church was giving me wasn't the tool I needed. I needed some actual treatment. I needed some actual drugs, some medication, some plans for how to manage it. But yet the church's tools that they were giving me not only weren't fixing the autoimmune disease, they were making the whole experience worse. Because on top of dealing with that, I'm now questioning my own worthiness. I would sit down after I came home and I would like, literally pray to God to know what I was doing wrong. Not. Not so that I, like for pity, but so that I could weed it out. Whatever I was. I just wanted to know, like, God, there's got to be some. Some other sin, right? Like, there's got to be something I didn't repent of. There's got to be something that I'm not doing, right? Like, whatever it is, just. Just tell me, right? And I'll get rid of it. And so I would just plead with God that whatever was holding me back, he would let me know so that I could. So that I could fix it and be worthy to go back out and serve this mission. And I spent probably three years in that space constantly trying to go back out on my mission. So I wasn't able to move on with life because my focus for probably three years after coming home was literally when I can go back out, I can do whatever, like, as soon as the treatment gets better, as soon as I figure out what's holding me back, whatever it was to get me back out. And so for that three years, I was just in this, like, stall pattern in life because I was trying to go back out on a mission.

Neesha Brost [00:42:21] Hmm.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] I am so, so sorry, Kyle. And that's. You know, there's this. There's this presentation I once saw that talked about how all organizations are evil in the sense that they do harm to the people who are members of it, because the organization cares about the organization always more than the individual. If there's ever a difference between the organizational well being or the individual, the organization's always going to side with itself. And so the church has this doctrine, this theology, this history, these rules, these standards. And it was good for you until it wasn't. But then when it wasn't, all of a sudden you're getting diseases, you're being shamed, you're being blamed, you're like spending years of your life trying to fit back into a mold that just isn't good for you. But the church isn't made for Kyle brost at age 20 or 21. You know, in that scenario, the church is made in that case for other types of people in other scenarios. But it becomes what was healthy for you at one point and what might be healthy for tens of thousands of people in different contexts kind of became a psychological meat grinder for you, it sounds like.

Kyle Brost [00:43:35] Yeah, well, and I think you've kind of touched on it. The difficult part is there's no room for you to realize as a believing member, there's no room for you to realize that the church is not maybe, you know, exacerbating issues, that it may be creating issues. There's no space for you to see or realize that as a believing member, because the church, the gospel, is perfect. And so if you're not in alignment with it, if there's something off about that relationship, it can't possibly be. It can't possibly be a policy, it can't possibly be a teaching, it can't possibly be the gospel. So it must be something with you. And so you can stay. I think this is what's so harmful, is you can stay in that space. Like I just said, for years, and I talked about two or three years, there are people that, I mean, you think about the LGBTQ community, there are People that stay in that space where it is not good or healthy for them, but they can't see it for decades. And I just think that that's the piece that is such an important storyline for people to realize is when the tools don't work, you have permission to go find better tools. You don't have to be attached to those things.

John Dehlin [00:44:46] That's so good. We have some comments that I think are really important. So Richard Crabb writes, I was Kyle's comp on the mission. That time was rough. You were trying to do everything you can and you really hoped for the blessing to heal, just to serve, but it just didn't happen. That was hard. So do you know Richard Crabb?

Kyle Brost [00:45:05] I do. He was one of my companions. I trained Richard Crabb as a missionary. I love, I love him.

John Dehlin [00:45:11] This is when, this is when the live stream is beautiful. Richard Crabb also says I can say Kyle was easily the hardest working missionary companion that I had. Every day we came in exhausted. So he's basically saying it wasn't sin.

Kyle Brost [00:45:26] Kyle, that means a lot. Honestly, it means a lot to hear that because I did feel like I gave everything. So thank you, Richard. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:45:38] Yeah, that's beautiful. And Kyle, I'm so, so sorry that, that, that that happened to you. So, so when, how and how did kind of your ideas of a mission kind of wrap up and close? Did you say you spent years trying to.

Kyle Brost [00:45:54] I did.

John Dehlin [00:45:55] Get back on your mission?

Kyle Brost [00:45:57] I did, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] Years of your life, right?

Kyle Brost [00:45:59] Like, yeah, I was, you know, it's not like I was just sitting on the couch that whole time. I went to BYU Idaho for a semester. I got in a little bit of trouble there because this is a funny story, but. So at BYU Idaho, you can't cross the threshold, right? You can't in apartments, you can't go past the threshold into like their bedrooms or restrooms. Some friends of mine and I, we snuck into some different apartments and we stuck beef and chicken bouillon cubes in the shower heads and we got in a lot of trouble for that. And so I was only there a semester because they kind of threatened me with some probation or academic suspension if we kept up our shenanigans. So I was there a semester and then I sold insurance door to door. And then I went to the University of Wyoming to pursue a degree. And that's where I started my first company. And I worked the oil field. So I was just. Honestly, for three years I was all over the place. And again, I was taking like short, short things I was doing a semester at a time or I was doing a summer in the oil fields just because I was. It was always like, well, I don't want something permanent because I'm going back out. And so it was always these like little chunks of whatever I could do a semester or a few months at a time thinking, okay, in three months I'm going to go back out. In three months I'm going to go back out. And so it was, it was a good two to three years of that. Like two to three month planning at a time with the anticipation always being to go back out.

John Dehlin [00:47:32] And what was keeping you from going out?

Kyle Brost [00:47:35] We could never get my disease managed. So again, the medication at the time just wasn't, it wasn't very effective. It didn't work for me. We were honestly really close to having surgery where, you know, getting a colonoscopy or. Sorry, yeah, a colostomy bag. I was constantly on and off of prednisone, which can be very unhealthy for your kidneys and liver if you're on it for too long. And we just could never get it under control. It wasn't until several years, it's probably about five. After three years, I just finally realized, like, I can't be in this space any longer, so I just need to make the decision that I'm not going back out. So I hadn't gotten better from the illness yet, and I just realized, like, I can't go another three years like this. I just need to make the decision. So I decided I wasn't going to go back out. And then I moved on with my life from there. And it wasn't until quite a few years later that they finally came out with some medication that helped get it into remission. And it's fine now.

John Dehlin [00:48:36] Well, I'm so glad you got that worked out.

Kyle Brost [00:48:38] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:48:39] I, I do. You know, I, I had this weird phenomenon just because I'm trying to connect with you, where I, I developed asthma on my mission. I didn't really have it before. I haven't really had it since, but the, the combination of the location, which was Guatemala, and the stress, I think probably had some type of physiological impact on me. I'm not sure if you feel like the stress of a mission was a. Was it part of the combination or if you think it was just, you know, genetic or, or something else? Do you even have a theory about that?

Kyle Brost [00:49:10] Well, I mean, so there is some connection between stress and ulcerative colitis. And so a lot of the, you know, doctors that I was meeting with, we certainly talked a lot about stress. We talked a lot about. And we even talked about that before I came home from my mission. So my mission president, you know, he was asking me, what is making you stressed out? You know, do you want to stop filling out the weekly reports with all of your hours on it? Would that help decrease the stress? Would you. Would you like to start, you know, stop charting every single activity and trying to hit targets? So stress was certainly a really big factor to it. And I mean, ultimately, I don't think stress getting rid of the stress would have cured it, but stress was certainly exacerbating the problem.

John Dehlin [00:49:52] Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, that's a harrowing story, Kyle. Thanks for being so vulnerable, and thanks for sharing with us something that I know is close to your heart. Was there a. Was there a video we were going to show?

Kyle Brost [00:50:05] There is your mission.

John Dehlin [00:50:06] Is it. Was this. Was it. Was it a different point? I'm trying to remember? We're. We're going to Show a few TikTok videos. There was for. There was one from your mission, right, Kyle?

Kyle Brost [00:50:16] Yeah. I mean, you can share it.

Neesha Brost [00:50:17] It's.

Kyle Brost [00:50:17] It's kind of the same storyline, but it is one of our tick tocks.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] All right, So I. I do want to show it just because. I do want to show it just because. Just one second. Okay, Just because I do want to highlight your amazing TikTok channel while, you know, while we're at it. So I am going to just. We're going to share five videos today. This is going to be the first one. And we're just going to share one of your TikTok videos from your channel, Challenge Faith, just a little TikTok video you made about your mission. Is that okay?

Kyle Brost [00:50:56] Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [00:50:57] All right, so let me. I'm gonna mute our. Mute our lines, and then I'm gonna play this video, everybody. This is a video about Kyle's mission from. From Challenge Faith. And if you're on YouTube, you'll be. Or Facebook, you'll be able to. You'll be able to see this.

Neesha Brost [00:51:19] All right?

Kyle Brost [00:51:19] Then you add to this all of this baggage around the idea that I had to come home for an autoimmune disorder that I. It developed while as a missionary. And now people are not only telling me that if I have faith, I'll be able to finish my mission, but they're telling me that if I have enough faith that I will be healed from my autoimmune disease. And so here I am as a 20 year old man praying, Praying to God every day, looking for everything in my life that could be holding me back, every bit of faith that could possibly be holding me back from not being healed and not being able to finish a full time mission. And all the while everybody telling me that, that it was because I wasn't worthy or I didn't have enough faith. Then you add to this.

John Dehlin [00:52:18] That was powerful. Like I just want to, I just want to say that that's one of the reasons why I think TikTok is so valuable. You can just, it's short but really emotional, effective, powerful videos and that was really beautiful, Kyle. So I just want to thank you for sharing that with us and just say what a beautiful channel you guys have.

Kyle Brost [00:52:40] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:52:42] Yeah, anything, anything you guys want to say in reflection as you, as you watch that?

Kyle Brost [00:52:49] I think there's just this element that we try to be extremely raw and vulnerable and transparent on our panel and I think that that's what people appreciate at some level is that we just share like that none of our students has been set up to harm the church. It's literally just been his chair, Alan's delivery.

John Dehlin [00:53:17] Yeah. So your, your intent is not to harm the church. It's, it's just to share your experiences. And, and sometimes unfortunately people raised in a high demand religion just if you're being authentic about an experience that what didn't work for you, they, they're going to take that as an attack or an assault on the church, unfortunately.

Kyle Brost [00:53:37] Right.

John Dehlin [00:53:38] Yeah. Okay, we're getting some feedback that, that there was some echo echo coming through. So I'm going to have technical skills a little bit. Showing Tik Tok videos while I'm live streaming is, is, is proving to be harder than I can. So thanks everyone for the feedback. We'll get, we'll get these technical glitches worked out. Thanks for your patience everybody. I just want to show the, this amazing channel to everyone. So anyway. All right, let's jump back to your guys story. Nisha, let's come back to you. So by this point you've gone to byu, Idaho. Is that, is that where you are in your story?

Neesha Brost [00:54:19] Yeah, I was at BYU Idaho.

John Dehlin [00:54:20] And really quickly, what's that transition from Liberty, Missouri to Rexburg, Idaho? What was that like for you? Was it like, did you think you were Dorothy going to Oz? Like, what was that like?

Neesha Brost [00:54:33] Honestly, I was so ready for it and I, I loved it. I was like, yeah, I think every height, not high school, every kid ready for college is excited to go and like Try being on their own, right? And I was excited to have my own place. I was excited to make new friends and honestly be in a place where I felt like everybody was gonna be like me. Because I. I think I was just sitting here thinking about, you know, listening to Kyle's story, and he was so outgoing and so popular. I. I just quieted myself. And I. Because I was so nervous of putting myself in a position where I would have to tell somebody no or, you know, risk my own morals or values. So I kept pretty to myself. So I was so excited to go somewhere where I was like, I am just gonna be around all of these Mormons, and we're just gonna have so much good, clean fun together. So I was thrilled to go.

John Dehlin [00:55:33] I love it. Okay, so you. You had that BYU Idaho experience. Tell us about your experience up until the point you meet Kyle.

How Neesha and Kyle Met and Married

Neesha Brost [00:55:41] So I did three semesters at BYU Idaho, and then I came home for a semester break and met Kyle. So really at. At BYU Idaho, I was the typical Mormon BYU Idaho girl. I followed all the rules. I even worked at the testing center, so I got to enforce rules. You know, if you had a five o' clock shadow, don't come when I'm on the. And I loved it. I thrived on that.

John Dehlin [00:56:09] You were one of those.

Neesha Brost [00:56:10] I was.

John Dehlin [00:56:11] You were that girl. You were that girl.

Neesha Brost [00:56:13] I was. You give me a rule and you are sure I'm gonna follow it to

John Dehlin [00:56:17] the T. Oh, okay. Okay.

Neesha Brost [00:56:20] So I did not put Chicken Boy on in anybody's shower. And I would have reported him if he did it to me.

John Dehlin [00:56:26] Wow. Sounds like you weren't super fun. Neisha.

Neesha Brost [00:56:32] I was clean fun.

John Dehlin [00:56:33] Okay. I was, too. I was too. I still am, actually. I still am. Clean fun. Okay. Was it good? Was. Was BYU Idaho good for your testimony? Was it not good?

Neesha Brost [00:56:43] Yeah, honestly, I. Well, going there, I had already told myself I was not there to find a husband. I was there to get an education before BYU Idaho. And because of my family situation growing up and because of me kind of. Kind of closing the door on any type of relationship with a boy, I. I went out on a lot of dates and. But anytime there was ever any inclination of a boy wanting more from me, I was like, peace out. I'm gonna go find some dinner somewhere else. And I. I loved the dating aspect of it. I just had. I had so much fun at BYU Idaho, and. Actually, I forgot your question. I'm so sorry.

John Dehlin [00:57:30] Anything about it that you want that's worth mentioning? And how was it for your testimony?

Neesha Brost [00:57:34] I guess for my testimony, it just solidified everything I knew, you know, all of my religion courses. I was like, yes, yes, he's inspired. He's inspired. I love that we started every class with a prayer. I was like, this is so cool. I'm praying like 20 times a day. And I just knew I was, I was putting blessings up in heaven for me. So I, I loved it. I loved that, like, they had devotional on Tuesdays, and I could just sit with my journal and document things and just go out into the mountains and just sit and reflect and be upon all of these, like, beautiful creations made by God for me. So I, I, it solidified my testimony. I was like, this is real. This is true. And I had some unique experiences. Just like I mentioned before, Heavenly Father as a father figure was really important for me. And when my sister, my dad dropped me off at BYU Idaho, I felt like, so alone and lost for a second. And I, you know, remember just sitting down and praying on my, on my apartment floor and just offering up this prayer and just feeling so loved and secured by this man, this figure in heaven that I always just wanted that from. And so those things just solidified that this was the right thing to do. I was where I was supposed to be. And the church was true.

John Dehlin [00:59:02] Yeah. So why didn't you, why did you only do a semester and a half at or three semesters. Why'd you only do three semesters at By Idaho?

Neesha Brost [00:59:11] I came home for a semester break. I went, I was supposed to be on the spring summer track, so I went early for a semester and then my, my two tracks that I was allowed to do. And then I came home for that semester break. So I was supposed to go back out for another semester after, you know, three or four months at home. And then that's where I met Kyle was when I came home.

John Dehlin [00:59:28] Okay, so you come home to Liberty, Missouri, and Kyle. How did Kyle get to Liberty?

Kyle Brost [00:59:35] So I, so I had moved to the University of Wyoming and I started a small carpet cleaning business while I was there, I ran it. The guy that I worked with to start it was a kid I'd grown up with, and his dad owned a carpet cleaning business. So he kind of was my mentor. He's quite a few years older than me. He was my mentor in starting the carpet cleaning business. After running it for a couple of years, he called me and said, hey, I have this business opportunity in Minneapolis. Do you want to come partner with me on it? So I moved up to Minneapolis and worked with him in It. And then I bought a franchise of the same company in Kansas City about a year later. So I had moved to Kansas City after buying a business in. In the Kansas City area. And so that's how I got to Kansas City. And then Nisha came back for. For her semester.

John Dehlin [01:00:28] So you guys, how did you see. Did you meet at a ward? How did you meet? Tell us how you met.

Neesha Brost [01:00:33] Yeah, so I came home in April, and just a couple weeks before that, my sister, who was living in Liberty, was very active in the singles board. She's two years older than. And she said, hey, there's this big, like seven stakes of young single adults going to Nauvoo, Illinois. Do you want me to put your name down on the list to go? And it was gonna be like a week or two after I got home. And of course I was like, yeah, let's do that. That'd be awesome. We love Nauvoo. I love church history. So she put my name on, and then Kyle had a different experience to get on the list.

Kyle Brost [01:01:08] Yeah. So my stick actually wasn't invited, but the institute director knew me pretty well, or I knew we knew each other pret. And he came and he said, hey, we've got an extra slot. He knew that I was running a company, so he's like, you probably have some flexibility if you want. Do you want to come? And so I was like, yeah, sure, I'll take the spot. And so my stick actually wasn't supposed to be there, but I ended up on the trip. Nisha was on the trip, and we met in a park in Nauvoo, Illinois.

Neesha Brost [01:01:34] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:01:35] And what do you guys think of each other when you met?

Kyle Brost [01:01:41] Nisha came up to me first and she. She complimented my pants, but I was wearing shorts and so said, they're not pants, they're shorts. And she thought I was a. I

Neesha Brost [01:01:51] thought you were a jerk. I was like, what a good looking jerk.

Kyle Brost [01:01:56] For some reason, he kept talking to me that whole trip. And then we talked a little bit during the trip, and then on the.

John Dehlin [01:02:03] Wait. What did you think of Nisha, Kyle?

Kyle Brost [01:02:06] I thought she was. Honestly, I thought she was cute. I thought she was very, like, spunky and outgoing, which she is. But we didn't talk a whole lot during the trip. It was a few days. We ended up on the bus together, sitting next to each other. On the way home, we joke about this because I was the last one to get on the bus, and there were literally two open seats next to two different girls. And I stopped in the Aisle. And I took, like, three seconds to evaluate my options before I chose which seat today. And I chose the one next to Nisha.

Neesha Brost [01:02:43] Smart guy.

Kyle Brost [01:02:43] So I was one feet away from. From somebody else.

John Dehlin [01:02:49] That's awesome.

Kyle Brost [01:02:50] And so just a note on that. So we met in Nauvoo.

Neesha Brost [01:02:54] Yes.

Kyle Brost [01:02:55] Nisha's aunt owned a house in Keokuk, which is just across the river from Nauvoo, So we went there a lot. So we met in Nauvoo. We got engaged in Nauvoo, and then we were married in the Nauvoo temple.

John Dehlin [01:03:06] Wow. It's a Nauvoo love story.

Kyle Brost [01:03:09] Love story. Yeah. All within six months.

John Dehlin [01:03:12] Months.

Neesha Brost [01:03:12] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:03:13] Six months. Okay. So there was a whirlwind romance in there.

Kyle Brost [01:03:17] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:03:18] Anything you guys want to say about that whirlwind romance? Anything worth mentioning?

Kyle Brost [01:03:24] I mean, so Nisha had not. Nisha. The only thing. So sexually, the only thing Nisha had ever done before dating me was hold somebody's hand. So she had never kissed anyone. She'd never. I don't know how to back rub. She'd never. She'd never done any of that. So I was the first person that. That Nisha kissed. It was super awkward.

Neesha Brost [01:03:46] She.

Kyle Brost [01:03:46] She's very. She's very outgoing.

Neesha Brost [01:03:48] Amazing.

Kyle Brost [01:03:49] It was. It was amazing. It was amazing, too. But I asked her. I was like, is it okay if I give you a kiss? And she said yes. So we kissed, and then she, like, freaked out. She was like. Like, oh, my gosh.

Neesha Brost [01:04:02] Oh, my gosh.

Kyle Brost [01:04:02] Like, out. And I'm like. I was out of it.

Neesha Brost [01:04:05] Kyle's like, I've done this before, and that is not how usually happens after.

Kyle Brost [01:04:09] It was a little awkward, but I was the first one. I was the first one that she ever kissed. So that was unique about our courtship.

John Dehlin [01:04:16] So is that just because Kyle was a fantastic kisser, Nisha, Was that why you reacted that way, or.

Neesha Brost [01:04:21] No, because I gave. I mean, yes, obviously, still is. Thank you, Kyle. Obviously, I have nothing to compare it to. No. Because I decided to, like, give up part of that myself. Right. Like, I was kind of. I was submitting to, like, this desire I had. Whereas before, I was always like, you're gonna hold strong, Nisha. You don't need a man. You don't need, you know, any of that. Like, you can just make this life work without a man, and you can just, like, adopt kids or something, like, crazy ideas. Right. But I was shocked that I, like, went through with it, because my whole life, I was not gonna do that because I was so scared of becoming like a chewed piece of gum and then not being worth something to somebody else. Like, what if this didn't work out? Then I would have to tell somebody else, like, oh, actually, I kiss somebody. You know, like, how silly is that? But I was. I was very. I was very scared to give that part of myself up.

John Dehlin [01:05:27] How old are you when you had your first kiss?

Neesha Brost [01:05:29] 19.

John Dehlin [01:05:30] Wow. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So a lot of purity culture kind of influence on. On you, Nisha.

Neesha Brost [01:05:37] Yeah. And honestly, that purity culture didn't even really become a thing, like I said, until I went to byu, Idaho. Like, I said I would date around, and I loved it. But the moment somebody asked me, you know, for a handhold or a kiss or something, I was like, no, I don't think so. I don't have to do that.

John Dehlin [01:05:54] Okay.

Neesha Brost [01:05:55] And so I honestly, right before the trip to what? Because we went out on a trip to Wyoming, and the young single adults were going to Martin's Cove in Wyoming, and Kyle's family's, like, from Wyoming, so we were going to take a little detour and just meet his parents. And so our first kiss was in the downstairs of your mom's basement on the couch. Yeah. Anyway, I was gonna say about that,

Kyle Brost [01:06:20] I don't know, but that's weird.

Neesha Brost [01:06:21] I know. Sorry. I got off a little tangent before I went on this little trip. The good friend of mine in the ward, who was actually one of my young women's advisors, kind of talked me through this. She was like, if you want to kiss him, it is okay to do that. And I was like, but am I gonna want to do that? You know, it was. I was very immature in that way because I was just. Just so afraid of making a huge mistake.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. Again, two things that the church does well or not well, they certainly help youth and young adults find mates and get married quickly. And that, you know, when you talk to people who are trying to adult, either as young adults now or even as divorced people, sometimes it could be really hard to find a mate. And the church really facilitates that. But. And then they also really facilitate this kind of like, you know, they. They. It can prevent you from all sorts of unpleasant or unhealthy or unfortunate or wonderful things were around sexuality during your. During your late teen years. Right. And it sounds like it had. It kept you. You clean and pure. Quote, unquote. Nisha.

Early Marriage and Sexual Shame in Mormonism

Neesha Brost [01:07:38] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:07:39] Yeah.

Neesha Brost [01:07:40] Yeah. I wanted to be clean and pure because, I mean, all of my worthiness was relying on that.

John Dehlin [01:07:47] Yeah. And there's probably good and bad in that as well.

Kyle Brost [01:07:50] So there isn't. And I think, you know, that ended up playing into our early marriage. So for Nisha, once we got married, she had, she had done it. She had successfully, like, she hadn't. She had been worthy. Right. She had been pure and worthy this whole time. So once we got married for her, it was like, we're good to go.

John Dehlin [01:08:11] Yeah.

Kyle Brost [01:08:11] Like there was nothing for her holding her back. I had developed this like guilt and shame cycle around masturbation, around pornography, around just being with women in general, around drinking, about any, like, sin. I developed a pretty severe guilt and shame cycle. And so Nisha, after we got married was like, hey, we're good to go. Like, there's no guilt or shame here. For me, for me it was different. And there was a lot of guilt and shame during.

John Dehlin [01:08:43] Did you, did you talk about the pornography, masturbation stuff when you were telling your story?

Kyle Brost [01:08:48] I didn't, I didn't talk about it. It was, you know, it was something I did, but it was never, it wasn't like, I hate the term addiction when it comes to that kind of stuff. It was never something that was like habit for me. It was something I did because I was a teenage boy and a 20 something boy. So it was something I did. But it wasn't like a habit that I was always involved in. But anytime I did it, I would have weeks of depression and guilt and anxiety around it. And so I had just developed this association with like any sort of release. I had developed this guilt and shame association and something weird. I don't know if this, I don't know if this is the case, but in trying to make sense of it, I think something that happened is I had been with girls, not I again, I was a virgin when we got married, but I'd been with girls. And I had this like, like not only guilt for myself, but also a lot of guilt and shame for them for being like, with me. And so that's when I really started to like, use pornography and masturbation more is because I hated that. I hated that feeling of not only feeling guilty and shame for myself, but also feeling that for someone else. And so I used it as a way to like never feel like at least then I was only putting myself in that bad position versus me and someone else. It's better.

John Dehlin [01:10:25] So it's. So it's better to masturbate than to, than to take away. I'm going to use quotes here. Take away a woman's virtue, get get her involved in the sin. At least it's. It's sin with you alone instead of sitting with somebody else.

Kyle Brost [01:10:38] Yeah, absolutely. And. And honestly, what happened is anytime that I was with a girl in any way, I felt that, like, weird tension, like, oh, we're both defiled now, right? We're. We're both dirty now. And I had developed that pattern. And so just by getting married, that didn't go away. And so in our early intimate relationship, honestly, for probably three, I don't know, three, four or five years of our early marriage, that was our experience is we would be intimate and I would withdraw because I had this, like. Like guilt. And. And I saw us both as dirty. And it was. It was really unhealthy. Really unhealthy.

Neesha Brost [01:11:22] It was because I was like, wait a minute, I thought we were supposed to be okay with this. And we didn't also have, like, the communication to be able to talk about it because we were. I mean, I had no idea what was going through your head. And you didn't want to tell me all of those things because then I would see you different. Rent.

Kyle Brost [01:11:41] Right.

Neesha Brost [01:11:41] I totally would have. As a believing Mormon, I would have seen, you know, masturbation or pornography use as these terrible sins.

Kyle Brost [01:11:49] And I think that's what's really hard is, you know, how much. How much is attached to those behaviors within the church. And so, you know, if you go to your spouse and you open up to them, that they are going to label you that way, that they're going to see you that way. They won't see. See any. They won't see any complexity to it. They won't see any context to it. It will just be like, you've done this horrible, terrible thing, and. And there's. So there's no real good way to actually have an open, honest conversation about it.

Neesha Brost [01:12:24] Right.

John Dehlin [01:12:25] Wow. So if. So, I. Margi is coaching me, and I get coaching regularly about, like, how I can improve my interviews. And one thing I'm. Margi's been coaching me on is always make sure you get consent before you talk about sexuality stuff. And I did talk to you guys before about, like, is there anything you do or don't want to talk about? But I just want to say here, I want you guys. I want to make sure that you guys feel like anything we do or don't talk about in the next little bit is totally whatever you're comfortable with. And I have a couple questions, but I only want you to answer if you feel comfortable. Is that okay? I'm just trying to model a little bit of consent here. Is that all right?

Neesha Brost [01:13:07] Yeah. And I think part of the reason we're totally open about talking about it is because we know we are not the only people.

John Dehlin [01:13:13] Oh, yeah. And that's the only reason I'm asking. Some people are like, john, you talk about sex on the podcast because you get your jollies. I'm like, no, I've never once been aroused doing an interview on Mormon stories. Like, I talk about shame, sexual shame, because I believe it's core to the Mormon Church's business model. And it's one of the things we talk about, the good. It's one of the most damaging things about Mormonism. And frankly, it's why Natasha got excommunicated. Like, it is such an important topic. And that's the only reason I talk about it. Literally the only reason. So having, like, wasted two minutes trying to excuse myself. Go ahead, Kyle.

Kyle Brost [01:13:54] Just to put some context around that, too. Part of the reason we talk about it. So we shared just a short series of videos about purity culture. And one of them we mentioned, like, a tool that we kind of built and used to help us. And that one video, we have had hundreds, literally hundreds of people direct message us and ask for that specifically. And the reason I share that is just because that's how prevalent it actually is. And that's why we're willing to talk about it, because we had no idea that we would get that kind of response from that one video. But I'm not exaggerating. Like, hundreds of people asked us, Nisha, can you.

John Dehlin [01:14:34] Nisha, can you grab your phone and send me the link to that one video real quick? And I'll ask Kyle a question while you're doing that. Do you mind?

Neesha Brost [01:14:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:41] And then I'm going to show that video. So, Kyle, with your consent, I want to understand, because most of the people I interview, it's the woman that has the internalized sort of, like, sex negativity. And what that often shows up for the woman is no libido, lack of interest, just lack of sexual desire. Right. And so the typical model is guy, husband wants to have sex a lot, wife feels not a lot, not interested, feels dirty, feels shameful. So it's. It's this. So that's the model. And then the man ends up looking at porn and masturbating as a way to get a release. And the wife just isolates and then gets mad at her husband because, you know, because he's sinning, and it becomes this sort of negative super negative shame spiral. I don't think I've had anyone on Mormon stories yet. Talk about kind of a flip paradigm where it's the wife who's more feeling sex positive and it's the husband who's feeling some of these things. So you've told us at a higher level. Can you go one level deeper and tell us how that, how that was for you and, and how that made things hard for you? Because, like, what people would think is, oh, wedding night, Kyle and Nish are having fun. And then for the next five, 10 years, you know, until the marriage honeymoon period wears off, it's just lots of fun. Why wasn't sex lots of fun for you, Kyle? Whatever you're comfortable sharing.

Kyle Brost [01:16:16] Yeah, I'm pretty open about, really was this. I. I think I had wired my brain. I had enough experience of having some sort of sexual release and immediately feeling guilt and shame for that. And I think I did have some scrupulosity. So throughout all of my experience in the church, I felt an overwhelming amount of guilt and sorrow and remorse for sins, partly because I felt like I had to. I felt like I had to reach some level of appropriate sorrow and guilt in order to qualify for repentance. And so anytime that happened, I felt that those feelings. I felt this, like, guilt and sorrow. And I would literally tell myself, like, you need to. You don't feel bad enough for this. God's not going to forgive you because you don't feel bad enough yet. You haven't experienced enough. You're not sorrowful enough for this yet for God to forgive you. And so I had just built up this pattern of any sexual experience being associated with, like, guilt and sorrow. And so even though, like, mentally I knew okay, it's supposed to be okay now, I still didn't actually know, like, what was supposed to be okay. Meaning, was oral sex okay? Or was I supposed to feel guilt? Was that unnatural? Because we weren't supposed to do anything unnatural. Was, like, touching ourselves while we're together okay? Like, what is actually okay? And so I had, like, anything that was outside of, like, the most basic sexual experience. And even those I just had this constant concern of, did I just do something wrong? Did I just cross a line? Was that, like, unnatural? And so it just. And that carried right into our intimate relationship. Anytime we were sexual together, I had this guilt and shame for being too selfish or enjoying it too much, for having, like, desires that maybe I shouldn't have had. Like, should I not desire that? So just all of those things came on Me. And then what would happen is we would have this sexual experience together and then I would feel all of that and I would. I would push her away because I'd be like, wait, like, we're both gross now. I mean, there were literally times where I would get up and go sleep on the couch because it was like I was so. I felt so awkward and uncomfortable about those experiences.

John Dehlin [01:18:59] Nisha, what was it like for you? Was this something that was affecting you? His. Was his. Was his reaction to sex affecting you?

Neesha Brost [01:19:09] Yeah, it's like, sad to hear because I just remember feeling like, well, what's wrong with me? And like what it's like in the movies or. You know, I just thought like, if we did this, we would be. Feel more connected. And I thought this was supposed to be like the pinnacle of our marriage. Like, we've waited so long for this. Why is it so hard to do something that should be so natural for people? Why is it. Is it so hard for us? Why do I feel so terrible about myself? Like, what am I doing wrong?

Kyle Brost [01:19:47] And I think that's so. Because I. It's so hard to think about these things because I could see all of that, right? I could see that she was feeling that way and I could try to like, explain to her, but I couldn't. I never felt like I could come out and say, like, hey, I'm feeling this way because I've had. Had these experiences for the last 10 years. Because then I'm like labeled every label you. Every terrible label you can think of, right? I'm labeled, I don't know, like a addict. I'm labeled a pervert. I'm labeled a sinner. I, like, need to go join a 12 step program. Like all of this stuff, all this baggage that's associated with just being able to open up and say, here's where I'm really at and what I'm really experiencing.

John Dehlin [01:20:35] I just have to thank you guys for being so vulnerable and open about something so personal. I mean, there's. Is there anything more personal than this? I don't. I can't think of what if there is? And you're being so vulnerable and open. Thank you, Nisha. Thank you for sharing how, how that was for you. And then, Kyle, I just want to ping pong back to you for a second. Like, for a man, you know, if a man isn't aroused feeling it, then traditional sex just isn't even possible. And what I understand about sex, and we're talking about sex again, not to be appropriate, not to get Our jollies, but because these are issues that affect people. But if you're not aroused, it's hard to have traditional sex. And if you know that Nisha's feeling super sad that you're always feeling guilty, I can imagine the shame cycle where it could even be hard for you to even be interested in sex because now it's all gotten so complicated and now you're filthy feeling guilty and you're feeling ashamed and, and now there's this difference and Nisha's saying what's wrong? And I'm not. I don't know if that was your experience, but I can. In my brain I can just imagine that experience where the harder it, the more difficult it gets, the more difficult it gets. Does that make sense that the more it becomes a problem, the more that creates more of a problem to where it could even lead to just total breakdown or dysfunction of your intimacy. Now I don't know if it got that bad, but I mean, that's just what I'm imagining.

Neesha Brost [01:22:10] Well, it for sure like trickled into our day to day activities because I would always think like, well again, what am I doing wrong? Maybe he hasn't find me attractive. Like, am I not like that fun to be around? And then eventually I started not to like him. Right. Because I was like, well, if he's not gonna like me, I'm not gonna like him. So it definitely affected not just intimacy, but our entire relationship.

Kyle Brost [01:22:37] Right. Well, then you, you compound that with the fact that we only knew each other for six months before we got married. We didn't have any marriage tools in terms of how to communicate, how to talk, how to, how to recognize what was going on, be open and transparent with each other. And so we sat in this cycle for a long time where my action was creating action with Nisha, Nisha's action was creating a counteraction. And we just got in that cycle and there was no way for us to openly talk and discuss it. I mean, we did eventually go see a counselor and talk to our bishop and went through that process and it helped a little bit.

Neesha Brost [01:23:19] We went to the temple and we would fight about everything on the way to the temple. And then we would go to a session and then be like, oh yeah, I think we do love each other. It was a bad cycle.

Kyle Brost [01:23:31] It was for a while we were just, we were not friends. Yeah, we were just living together and we didn't see that much of each other. We honestly were kind of like living our own lives, just sharing the same roof for Quite a, quite a while.

John Dehlin [01:23:49] And I have to ask, how long did you guys kind of spend. How many years did you spend in this sort of somewhat toxic negative sex shame spiral? How many years?

Neesha Brost [01:24:05] Probably, I mean, five or so. We decided to have a child in our third year of marriage and we thought that would help us. Right. Because that's like the next thing you do. And that helped a little, but I think it helped a little bit because then I was busy. I was preoccupied.

John Dehlin [01:24:24] Yeah, it gets you busy. They get you busy.

Neesha Brost [01:24:25] Exactly. But honestly, the effects were long lasting. Five, seven years.

Kyle Brost [01:24:30] Yeah, I think we started to try to work through it probably three to four years in. And by like year six or so, we had found some ways to like actually be open and honest and navigate it in a healthy way.

John Dehlin [01:24:45] And I. This is just going to be a public service announcement. This is like me, this is pro bono work for the Mormon Church. So. Mormon Church, I know you're listening. You guys have like a four day response rate to my episode. These episodes. These days, Mormon Church, you have your youth and your adults in hours and hours and hours of education. Weekly, monthly, yearly, you've got all those classes you require at byu. You've got seminary, you've got institute, you've got Sunday school, you've got Elders quorum, you've got priesthood Relief Society, young men's, young women's. Why don't you have healthy sexuality curriculum baked into your curriculum? Why isn't it a required course at BYU for healthy sexuality? Like, you think about all the mind numbing, wasteful curriculum and education that you experience in the Mormon Church and then you think about some of these crucial life skills like emotional intimacy, like sexual intimacy. And all you learn is pay. You know, pay your tithing, read your scriptures, pray, go to church. And as you guys said, when you are just trying to like, once you get married and have kids and have your job, you get so busy doing being on the Mormon train that yeah, you can paper over problems in emotional intimacy, problems in sexual intimacy, problems in your relationship, bad communication, you can paper over all that, but it doesn't put your marriage on a very healthy, solid foundation for long term growth. Am I right? Is that true for you guys?

Kyle Brost [01:26:30] Yeah, actually it is. And, and what's unfortunate is that the education they do offer. This is Kyle Bro speaking. The education they do offer and tools they do offer are far inadequate. So for example, at one point our marriage, I got put into the addiction recovery program which felt like a con, a conflict to me because I what I was Sincerely was not addicted to, to it. It wasn't something, wasn't a pattern that was happening every day. It wasn't a pattern that was happening every week. But I got put into this addiction recovery program and treated like an addict versus exploring like how it all came about. And then Nisha was a part of

Neesha Brost [01:27:09] it and I was part of, you know, the family side.

Kyle Brost [01:27:13] Right.

Neesha Brost [01:27:14] And I felt like almost that was a little bit more damaging to us than anything because I, I only saw Kyle as like this sinner all of the time. I'm like, well, I'm justified in my like almost hatred to him because he's doing these sins and ruining our family.

John Dehlin [01:27:32] Okay, so if it's okay, I want to back up just a little bit because now we're getting into something that we've covered before on Mormon stories, but I want to cover it every single time. Okay, so it sounds like, and I know, just tell me if I'm wrong. It sounds like, like you guys weren't able to develop healthy sexual intimacy because you had never been taught it and the church doesn't value it or they would educate us about it. And so you had an unhealthy sexual relationship. And so I'm guessing, Kyle, that meant that you would sometimes release, obtain a release through looking at porn and masturbating. Right. And you're right. I just want to, you know, as someone who has trained in psychology. Right. I can tell you, and this is something that's very core to Natasha's excommunication. It's what she's been teaching us for years. It's also what I learned and it's something Kyle, you've already referenced. So if you guys will just allow me to engage kind of in this, there, there's no such thing as a water addict because you have to drink water to live. And there is such thing as a food addict. But you wouldn't call yourself a food addict if you ate three times a day because you need food to survive. Now of course, if you ate more food than is healthy, then you need to get some help because then you're eating more than is healthy. But nobody's going to call someone who eats three times a day a food addiction or a breathing addict or a sleep addict because those things are required for health. And guess what? Sexual release is highly tightly correlated with health and happiness and well being. We are wired to have sexual release at some frequency that our body pretty much knows. And in fact, our bodies are such wired that way that if we, if we don't have it. Our body will sometimes have it for us, you know, when we're asleep, if we're a guy. I don't know if girls have something comparable. But the point is, Kyle. Yes, you're right. It's not like I'm saying everybody should masturbate all the time. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, is that masturbation is a healthy, normal part of the human experience. And unless you make it bad and shameful, unless you make people think they're dirty and shameful and sad, and you just normalize it and say, yes, sometimes you do that when your body is. You usually do that when your body's telling you that it needs a release. And you. You do that and it's no big deal. And then you're fine. And then you go, however long you go until you need it again, like, that's healthy sexuality. But that's not what it is in Mormonism.

Neesha Brost [01:30:18] Right?

John Dehlin [01:30:19] And of course, also pornography, like, instead of pornography. And again, this is not me being. You know, there's so much we can say about pornography. This is not me saying porn is great. Porn has so problematic. There's child porn, problematic porn that is unhealthy porn that does. Isn't consensual porn that is degrading or debasing. Like, let's just say there's all sorts of unhealthy, bad porn. There's porn that's illegal, porn that's been stolen. Like, I am not saying porn. Everyone should be a porn person. And I'm gonna say that it is normal when you are needing a release to look at some sort of image or images to help you obtain that release, because your body is needing that release. And so people will look at images sometimes or fantasize things in their mind if they're looking for a release. That's also just what people do these days. And that has nothing to do with me saying, like, being pro porn. That's just reality. You got cell phones, you got the Internet. People are going to be looking at images. And that's just the world we live in. But to demonize that, to demonize masturbation or porn as evil and shameful and dirty and dark and loathsome and is infidelity. And to compare it to an addiction like cocaine or heroin or drugs or whatever, all of that is toxic. It's toxic to the husband because then he feels like he's bad and worthless and dirty and shameful, which makes him feel awful. And guess what? He needs, he wants to self medicate to feel better and he's going to masturbate more because that's the way that he feels better. And so that puts him in this toxic shame cycle where you're actually increasing the thing that you claim you don't want to be happening, happening. And then it also ruins the marriage because the wife thinks the husband is a dirty, rotten, cheating, filthy, perverted man.

Neesha Brost [01:32:17] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:32:18] And so it just, it's just like throwing hand grenades at the individuals and at the marriage. The way that the church talks about porn and masturbation. And that's what Natasha's been talking about, that's what got her excommunicated. And I'm just saying, as a mental health, as a person who is trained in mental health, that is absolutely toxic. The church's messages on porn and masturbation are deadly. They're deadly. They're toxic, they ruin marriages, they cause depression and anxiety. And this is a big deal. And I'm so glad we have you on. So now, Kyle, what you didn't tell us was how did you get in the pornography, masturbation, shame cycle within a Mormon context? Let's spend a little bit of time on that story. Does that make sense?

The Pornography and Shame Cycle

Kyle Brost [01:33:05] Yeah, I mean, honestly, it started as a teenager. It started because that's what I was taught was terrible. Right. I was taught. Just as an example, I went in when I was, I think probably 16 was the first time I ever went in, like to talk about a sin with a bishop. And what had happened is I had gotten drunk and I wanted to go talk to the bishop about getting drunk. At the time I was dating a non member girl. So I went in and I was not doing anything with this girl, like anything sexually with this girl, you know, maybe kissed, but nothing beyond that. I went in to confess the bishop that I had gotten drunk. I sat down and the first question the bishop asked me was, is she pregnant? And then we spent the next hour talking about my sexual life life. When I went in there to talk about and confess getting drunk. And that's where the whole thing really starts. That's where the bishop whipped out the scriptures and read to me about getting slain for spilling seed upon the ground. It's where he talked to me about how guilty I should feel. He put me on like disfellowship, like just between us.

John Dehlin [01:34:18] Probation.

Kyle Brost [01:34:19] Yeah, probation. And I went in there like literally I had masturbated and I had viewed pornography, but I went in to confess about alcohol. And that was the first experience that started this idea that I needed to feel a certain amount of guilt and sorrow. Like, not just any amount. There was a specific amount of guilt and sorrow I needed to feel in order to actually be forgiven. Because that's what he was telling me. He was telling me, you're on probation until you show that you felt enough guilt and sorrow for me to say you've repented. And so that's where the whole process started. And every time after that experience, and for that, I don't remember what the timeline was, but the month, you know, a couple of months or whatever it was that I worked with him, that's where the guilt and the shame and. And that cycle started because it never. It never ended after that. I bought into it. I believed what he was saying. I thought that's what was necessary to repent. But I also could never not do it. Like, I could go weeks, I could go months without doing it, but I would always do it at some point, and I would have, again, this, like, cycle of guilt. And when I'm talking about overwhelming guilt, what I had learned from that experience was that it could take weeks or months of guilt and sorrow and repentance to be forgiven for that thing. Because that's what the bishop, who was supposed to be showing me, the repentance process, that was the pattern and the example he had given me was, you did this thing. Now let's work together for several months. And so that was where the cycle started, was in that. That interview when I was probably 16 years old.

John Dehlin [01:36:00] And so then. Then if you. If you're now. And by the way, when I was a mental health professor, you know, when I was in my training as a psychologist, I, you know, I'm counseling these. These Utah State University returned missionaries that are trying to stop masturbating. You know, usually they could go about three weeks at the most. You know, three weeks was like this magical number where, you know, and they would talk about, I'm sober, you know, I haven't fallen off the wagon, okay? I fell off the wagon because I masturbated after three weeks. Like, it's this crazy, crazy shame cycle that. That our Mormon youth, and this happens to women, too, but that our Mormon youth kind of gets. Get stuck in. And Kyle, what I'm hearing from you is that what does it do to a youth starting at age 16, where every single week or month, you're having this constant cycling trauma around guilt, joy and pleasure, guilt and shame, joy and pleasure, guilt and shame. Fall, repent. Fall, repent. Am I Awful. Am I good? Is it terrible? Did I spill my seed? And then you just do that for four, five, six years, and then all of a sudden you get married. Now it makes real sense why sex was fraud for you. It's kind of like you had porn, you know, masturbation, shame trauma that you just brought with you into your marriage, and it affected your sex life for six years.

Kyle Brost [01:37:30] Right. And again, it wasn't just like porn. It wasn't. That wasn't a huge. Porn wasn't a huge factor. It was more masturbation and being with women. Although, again, I just want to be clear. So Nisha worries about this all the time, but, you know, I was a virgin when we got married, but I did other stuff with girls and that. It just was this pattern for years and again, you know, signing some papers and going through the temple, it didn't wipe away that pattern that had been established, I think. You know, what's so frustrating about it, in hindsight, is there are tools. It's not like it is this. This problem that can't be solved. It's not like there aren't tools out there. There aren't simple education methods that there aren't ways to teach it in a healthy and respectful manner. And I think that's what's so frustrating, is it actually can be a fairly simple problem to solve. Not that masturbation is the problem, but this, like, cycle and unhealthy intimacy is. There's a way to fix it before it happens. And yet we just bury our heads in the sand and act like morality takes the high road. And yet morality and this idea of sexual purity is what's causing so much of the problem. And then we're building tools and trying to retrofit them into purity culture, saying that they're the right tools and it just never works.

John Dehlin [01:38:56] Yeah, I'm getting a. You know, there's one listener that writes 99.99999. That's a very precise number, Sister Ray. Pornography as defined by mainstream society is not justifiable for any progressive. You know, this is always a difficult topic because people are like, oh, John, you're pro porn. No, that's not what I'm saying. It's complicated. Can we be nuanced, people? Because that's not what I'm saying. But what I am saying is it's here and it's prevalent and it's everywhere. And it's important how we talk about it, because if it's true that we think it's not good, then we should talk about it in ways that makes it used less. We should not, if we claim we don't like porn, talk about it in ways that make people watch it more. And what I'm saying is that demonizing something, making it scary, making it awful and dirty and terrible, and making it like, you know, I have friends that like their wife. I have a friend whose wife said, you're gonna now sleep in your. In your office on a mattress, and you're no longer welcome to have sex with me or be in bed with me for six months until I know you go six months without looking at porn or masturbating. What does that do? What does that do? It drives this huge wedge into their marriage. Now neither of them are getting intimacy. Now there's anger, now there's resentment. And now there's this plan where if he messes up once, then he's, like, looking at being kicked out of the house for good. That's not. That's not going to end well. And that's all I'm saying. And so let's talk about pornography in a healthier way. But I think, Kyle, what I hear you saying is that if you can develop healthy intimacy, emotional intimacy and sexual intimacy as a couple, and find out ways to meet each other's needs and get your needs met, then you can have a relationship where porn is. Is either irrelevant or super infrequent. And. And that maybe that's the ideal. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Kyle Brost [01:41:06] Yeah, absolutely. So that's exactly what I'm saying, is that. And we can 100% say that that is the case. We have been able to get to a place where. Where that's just not to your point. It is irrelevant because it's not a factor in our intimate relationship. But we weren't able to get there with the way that it was being taught and the way that it was being treated in the past. It wasn't until we were able to have total transparency between each other and get rid of all of the judgment around. Well, you're a terrible person. You. You know, you've got to go talk to the bishop. You've got to get into this program. It wasn't until we were able to have that really open, honest, transparent dialogue with each other. And the awesome thing is, honestly, now that we've been able to do it, we're both learning so much about each other and ourselves. Nisha's been able to open up far more about her own, like, wants and needs and desires and how we manage those drives that we have. And it's just there was no way to do that in a healthy way. The only way to do it, it according to, you know, purity culture is suppression. And it just doesn't work. Like, if there's one thing out there that we know, it's that suppressing it isn't gonna work. It's not gonna fix the problem. But being able to have more transparent, open, honest dialogue and experiences can make a huge difference.

John Dehlin [01:42:32] Yeah, well, I, I, you know, sometimes people are like, you know, John, let them talk. But I, I do feel like we have to sometimes drill down into these issues and talk about them. And I know it takes us out of the story, but I appreciate people's patience as we zoom in on the story and then zoom out and talk about it. Because I know that, like you guys said, how many people have messaged you just about this one issue?

Neesha Brost [01:42:57] Right? So many people.

Kyle Brost [01:42:59] Honestly, it's, it's well over a hundred.

John Dehlin [01:43:01] And that's just you?

Kyle Brost [01:43:02] That's just us.

John Dehlin [01:43:03] Yeah. So if we don't talk about it, we don't learn. So thanks for everyone's patience as we kind of zoom in and out of the story to take the time to really drill into something important.

Kyle Brost [01:43:13] Okay, one quick note, John, please. The people that are messaging us are from all. They're not just Latter Day Saints, they're not just members of the church or ex members. The hundreds of, I don't even know what the number's up to, but it's well over 100 of people that have messaged us about this one particular issue and they are from all over ex evangelical. We have current people who are like, I'm Catholic, like all over the place people are messaging us about this particular topic.

John Dehlin [01:43:42] Yeah. And that's one of the things I love about podcasting and TikTok is that I've got Catholic listeners, Jehovah Witnesses, evangelicals, you know, Scientologists and acts, all of those things as well. It's so fun when, when Mormon social media is a help not just to Mormons and ex Mormons, but to people of other high demand religions. It's so beautiful. We'll come back to that. So thank you guys. Thank you so much. Okay, going back to your story now. So, so your, your, your sexual intimacy isn't good in your marriage. And then talk to us about how you go from that to Kyle's in a 12 step program where he's being treated like an addict. Right. Where he's going to a, a 12 step group. Group And. And feeling like he's. He's a dirty, bad problem. Right, because that's a problem. I think it is.

Neesha Brost [01:44:35] Yeah. Honestly, Kyle is one of the most honest people I've ever met. And at one point, it just became too much. So he just told me, right? And then from that point on, what did he say?

John Dehlin [01:44:48] He said. What did he say?

Neesha Brost [01:44:49] Well, yeah, like, I've been doing. I've been doing pornography. I've been masturbating. And then obviously, me, I've always been taught, like, oh, my gosh, this is a sin. You're ruining our family. We have to go talk to the bishop right now. Like, you need to go confess. Looking back, I just wish again, I wish I had the tools, and I wish I was taught differently to not, like, jump down his throat and immediately make him feel even more terrible because he was just trying to be very vulnerable and express what had happened. Right? And I didn't even value or appreciate that. I was like, all right, I. All right, I knew I didn't like you. Now I'm gonna get the bishop to agree with me too. So it was terrible.

John Dehlin [01:45:35] So did you guys go. Did you. Did you guys go to the bishop and talk about this?

Neesha Brost [01:45:39] Yeah.

Kyle Brost [01:45:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:40] Do you? Okay, so I'm just gonna say I am horrified because if you go outside of a high demand religion, like Mormonism, any mainstream couple, like, first of all, masturbation is healthy. Second of all, why would you ever bring a church leader into your bedroom? Especially one who's not a psychologist or sex therapist, who. It's a plumber or an accountant who's got no training, is now, like, in your bedroom talking about what you should and shouldn't be doing. And then how humiliating for Kyle, like, Like, instead of, like, even now, Kyle, like, I know I'm a man. I know we're all sitting about. Sitting here talking about Kyle masturbating. Important. You're gonna feel shame and sheepish about that when every. Almost, let's just say, 90 plus percent of all the guys here, like, yep, me too. Me too. Me too. But in our culture, we've always felt so shamed and afraid to talk about it that, Kyle, you get super extra brownie points for, like, how humiliating this feels, even though you're. You're super normal. You know what I mean? Right?

Neesha Brost [01:46:50] It totally is normal now. I see that. But at the time, I was like, we're gonna go. I was almost vindictive about it, right? I was like, we're gonna go and you're gonna get reprimanded And I was gonna feel like justified in that because it was going to be the bishop who is the man called of God to, you know, to interject himself now in our marriage to help us out. And I was like, all right, this is the only thing we can do. Looking back, it was all. It's just so messed up.

John Dehlin [01:47:19] And again, he's not trained.

Neesha Brost [01:47:20] No.

John Dehlin [01:47:21] He's got no business counseling you on these things. And it's, it's this weird cycle back and forth of Mormonism having good things, helping you raise your kids, or, you know, giving you a moral code or giving your community, and it's making something that is healthy and normal a sickness. So now Kyle's sick and why is that important to the business model of the church? So that you need the church. So you better be paying your tithing, you better go to the bishop, you better repent, you better take the sacrament, you better live up to every single thing that you've covenanted on the covenant path, or you will be in my power, you know. And so, Kyle, what a huge, humiliating, shameful. And Nisha, you're a victim too. Like, you're, you're. How many women, and probably men have, have shamed and humiliated their spouses not because they want to be mean or hurtful, but just because that's what you were conditioned by, let's even say a well intentioned church. You were conditioned that. And then how is that good for your marriage at all? You've already got struggles and now it's this toxic explosion in your marriage that's humiliating. And now bishop's involved.

Kyle Brost [01:48:34] Yeah. But I think the hard part is I went to her because I was feeling enough of like that I was feeling so much pressure and burden from it that I needed to express, I needed to get it out there. And then not only do I now feel my own sorrow and guilt, which is overwhelming, but now I feel it from everyone else that I'm interacting with. Right. I feel it from Nisha to your point about the church. Now I'm getting questions about, you know, should the bishop hold on to my recommend for a little while and keep me out of the temple. And. And what? You know, what does my activity in the church look like? I've always been in leadership callings. And so, you know, should you be doing this or that? And so it's just, you know, like I'm already beating myself up for it. And then to have everybody else like jump in and say, well, let's all grab a bat, you know, that's kind

John Dehlin [01:49:24] of how it felt.

Neesha Brost [01:49:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:26] Yeah. So what is the bishop. So you're meeting with the bishop now about your private dealings, Kyle, and, and, and Nisha's almost beating you over the head with like, hey, look at you. Bad, bad. What does the bishop give? What advice is the bishop giving you?

Church Addiction Programs and Counseling

Kyle Brost [01:49:43] I don't remember, honestly, what advice the bishop gave, but he pretty much immediately said you have to get into the addiction recovery program.

John Dehlin [01:49:50] Okay, that's the advice. So let's talk about that. The, the, like an industry that the Mormon Church has created that only does harm or that does mostly harm. Let's talk about it. So what is the Mormon Church's addiction recovery program?

Kyle Brost [01:50:07] Well, I'm thinking.

John Dehlin [01:50:08] Oh, well, is it, was it meth? Is it alcoholism? Like, oh, addiction recovery. That's serious. What is the addiction recovery?

Kyle Brost [01:50:16] Well, it's pretty much for people who masturbate or view pornography. That's pretty much the group.

Neesha Brost [01:50:22] Group.

Kyle Brost [01:50:22] It's a modified 12 step program to address that, that the church has kind of made some tweaks and adjustments to, to fit their approach. And it has, you know, weekly meetings where people are supposed to get together and talk about, you know, work through the 12 steps and discuss things. But it follows the same process that the church follows around repentance, which is, you know, confess, feel sorrow, make any kind of recompense, you know, so it really just follows that process. But they put it into a book and, and you have meetings around it. I don't know what else to say.

Neesha Brost [01:50:59] I mean, the book is full of apostles, quotes, quotes from apostles and scriptures, and, you know, things to make you feel that shame, but also to make you have like a tinge of hope that literally you could fix anything through Christ. It's always focused on Christ. I think that's where it gets difficult because if we were trying to solve this problem outside of Mormonism, they would be giving us very different tools. But in the church, it's always focused around, well, you can get through this if you pray hard enough, if you read enough of your scriptures, if you attend your church meetings, eventually this will go away. When. That's just not the case.

John Dehlin [01:51:43] So tell us, tell us. So what, what city are you living in when you start attending these addiction recovery programs? What's.

Neesha Brost [01:51:51] We were in Lawrence.

John Dehlin [01:51:52] This was Lawrence, Kansas. Okay, so you're Lawrence, Kansas. Is this a steak thing or an area thing or just a ward thing? What is it?

Kyle Brost [01:52:01] Within our ward, how many, how many

John Dehlin [01:52:03] men or women were in this, were in this group?

Kyle Brost [01:52:06] They're usually about six to eight. Six. Somewhere between six and ten.

John Dehlin [01:52:10] Are you kidding? In a ward?

Kyle Brost [01:52:13] Well, there are three wards in the city. So between three wards.

John Dehlin [01:52:16] Okay, so like between three wards, at any moment, there's six to eight. Were they all husbands? Were there any wives talking about their addictions?

Kyle Brost [01:52:25] There were. No, not in the meetings. I. So I only went to two meetings. There were. Did I go to more?

Neesha Brost [01:52:31] No, you only went to two. But it was just because of the people who were running it. It wasn't.

Kyle Brost [01:52:38] Well, that's. That's like some unique context to our situation. We found out pretty quickly that the couple and I. The woman is a. I don't. I don't know how to say. The man had, like, legitimate. He had been charged with sexual abuse.

John Dehlin [01:52:57] So there's a sex offender.

Kyle Brost [01:52:59] Sex offender. Leading the group.

Neesha Brost [01:53:01] Leading the group. Group.

John Dehlin [01:53:01] Oh, my gosh. So that a sex offender. Reg. Potentially a registered sex offender leading the group.

Kyle Brost [01:53:09] Their children had to leave the home because of his involvement. And so.

John Dehlin [01:53:15] Holy moly.

Kyle Brost [01:53:16] When we found that out, the woman actually approached Nisha one time and explained the whole situation to her. Almost. In hindsight, it was almost like she was. It was almost like she was reaching out for help.

Neesha Brost [01:53:30] Yeah.

Kyle Brost [01:53:31] But we couldn't see that. And anyway, once we found that out, we were like, we'll find. We'll find something else. We'll find a different way to manage this.

Neesha Brost [01:53:40] And that's when we went to a counselor.

John Dehlin [01:53:43] Well, you dodged a bullet, because I. I've just heard those, and. And we've covered it on Mormon Stories podcast in the past. There are people writing in, you know, comments right now, but those. I mean, the hard thing is there's always going to be. You know, there's the saying that, like, even. Even Hitler created the Volkswagen Beetle and the Autobahn and I don't know, the historic city behind that. But, you know, there's always this idea that good things can come from things that are generally bad. So I. I don't want to make it sound like nothing good has ever happened in a Mormon church addiction record recovery program, because I'm sure some people got to talk or make friends or share their feelings or, you know, whatever, but. But they're deeply problematic. And I'll refer you guys to some other episodes listeners if you want to Google Mormon Stories, there's some episodes about this, but I'm just so relieved that you didn't stay in that. So you guys found a therapist? And was it a LDS Social Services recommended therapist?

Neesha Brost [01:54:44] Yes. Yes. Yes, she was.

John Dehlin [01:54:46] Okay, well, how Was that not good?

Neesha Brost [01:54:50] Not good. She actually wasn't married, so that I don't think helped. She had. I think she was trying her best, but she obviously had some bias against men. And at the time, again, it only justified me being angry at Kyle. And so it is. It wasn't that help. I mean, she gave us a few tools, but overall it wasn't that helpful. And it became almost like a unsafe space to go to.

John Dehlin [01:55:20] What was her. What was the general gist of her advice? Was she a registered sex therapist? Was she like, was she adhering to proper ethical models of treatment? Or was she more basically saying, read your scriptures and pray and fast and be righteous and that's your treatment?

Kyle Brost [01:55:38] So she wasn't a registered sex therapist, but she. And I don't think she necessarily crossed any lines, but she. You and I didn't sense this as much. Anisha was more in tune to this than I was. So it's not like I was saying I feel attacked. Nisha was more in tune to it, but she just kind of had this undertone of, yes, like, there's a lot of sin here. There should be some, like, guilt and shame. We don't know what level.

Neesha Brost [01:56:05] She asked me a couple times like, well, at what point do you need to leave him? And I was like, what? Like, I thought we could figure this out. Aren't we coming to you to figure this out? And she was a family therapist, right? Yeah. So anyway, it just. That wasn't a good experience either.

John Dehlin [01:56:24] Yeah, yeah. And so that's. That's another problem is the bishop has this network of mental health professionals that are like, church approved. And in this bizarre world, someone like Natasha Helfer Parker, that's a competent, licensed marriage and family therapist and sex therapist would not be recommended. You know, she was early on, but then when she started being vocal about her views on this stuff, the bishops and stake presidents stopped referring to her. And then the people that are on the list to be referred to are people that often aren't super competent in the areas that they're actually counseling. But they toe the church's line. They put the Church's principles over the standards and the ethics of the profession, and they intermingle religiosity and religious bias into their therapy sessions in ways that are super harmful. And that's the first line of defense that the bishops are referring people to.

Kyle Brost [01:57:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we, I don't know, we went together for several, quite a few sessions. Then Nisha went on her own for a little bit. And then I don't know. We just. We just stopped.

Neesha Brost [01:57:32] Yeah.

Kyle Brost [01:57:33] I think we just felt like maybe we'd gotten to a point where enough time had passed, we could kind of manage and deal with it, and we just moved on. And we never. Honestly, after that, we didn't really talk about it much after that. And things. Things were fine.

Neesha Brost [01:57:51] Things leveled out.

John Dehlin [01:57:52] Things got better.

Kyle Brost [01:57:53] Things got better.

Neesha Brost [01:57:54] I think that was opening the door to honest. To honesty. Right, right. And so we would still have, like. I shouldn't say we. You shouldn't say. We never talked about it. We would have, like, checkups.

Kyle Brost [01:58:06] Yeah.

Neesha Brost [01:58:06] Where I would ask him. And then I just trusted that you were being honest. And even at that point, though, too, our life started getting busier. So it started becoming not as much of an issue. I know We. We spent a lot of time dealing with it, and then we felt like we did it justice. And then, you know, we started having kids. So again, it just became not an issue.

John Dehlin [01:58:30] I love it. Okay. What else do you want to tell about your story before we start talking about the unraveling of your faith or the challenges. The challenges of your faith. Faith. Anything else you want to say about your Mormon story?

Faith Beginning to Unravel

Kyle Brost [01:58:46] I don't know. I think I would just. And probably every guest says this kind of stuff, but, you know, we. We were in it. We were in it 100%. We, both of us were seminary teachers. Nisha was part of the pilot program for online seminary. I was an early morning seminary teacher. I've been in leadership callings my entire experience in the church. We were all, like, all in, 100% in. And, you know, we could print out our Mormon resume to show, like.

Neesha Brost [01:59:18] Yeah.

Kyle Brost [01:59:19] How much time and effort and service and commitment we gave to the church.

Neesha Brost [01:59:23] We did. We made sure we attended the temple. I mean, that was really a huge one for us, just. And going back to, like, eternal families. I suffered a couple miscarriages, and one was pretty late on. And that. That was a huge comfort to me to know, like, I will see this baby again and I will raise this baby again. And that whole experience just, you know, I kind of like Kyle's faith, questioning his faith while he was on his mission. I just. That was my big experience to question my faith. Like, I just feel. I felt like at the time, if I had had enough faith, I could change the outcome of this experience of a miscarriage. And, you know, I didn't. We still miscarried. And just how depressed and worthless I felt because my job was to be a mom and I wasn't Fulfilling that. And I went through just a really hard time of trying to make sure was my faith adequate to. To make my family eternal. I think that was my end goal, was just always have this eternal family.

Kyle Brost [02:00:39] Well, in that specific experience, she struggled a lot because she felt like this conflict between if I spend too much time grieving the loss, then I don't have. Then it means I don't have enough faith. Because if I had enough faith, then I would just totally believe in eternal families and I would know it's going to happen. And so there'd be no reason to feel grief or go through a grieving process. And so it was a lot of this, like, struggle between. This really hurts and this sucks.

Neesha Brost [02:01:10] Yeah.

Kyle Brost [02:01:10] But I can't feel enough grief or take enough time to grieve because then it's some sort of indication that I don't believe strong enough in eternal families. And that was really. And as a believing, fully believing member of the time, I was not. I did a. A terrible job in supporting her through that process because I had the same mentality. I had the mentality of, why do you need all of these weeks or months to grieve when we both know that there's an eternal family and that this baby's gonna, you know, come back in the millennium for us or whatever it was gonna be? And so I wasn't there for her to be able to grieve that experience either.

Neesha Brost [02:01:53] I think that's one of the hardest parts about looking back on our early years of marriage, is just seeing how distant we were from each other and how we held each other to such ridiculous standards. If I didn't see Kyle read his scriptures, then automatically I was like, well, he didn't read his scriptures today, so he's not worthy enough to be the priesthood holder of our home. And I'm sure it was vice versa. We just always had these standards that were never going to be reached. But through reading, like the family proclamation and through reading things that the apostles have said, these are things we are supposed to be doing. So. Oh, we just had a really hard time with trying to obtain perfection and being okay if we didn't. And we just judged each other all of the time.

Kyle Brost [02:02:42] We did that a lot. And that was another piece that was hard is we held that over each other's heads. Like, if we weren't living up, up to the standards, we would make those comments. Like, if we weren't having family home evening, and one of us was caring more of the spiritual workload than the other or If I didn't go to a meeting early enough to set up enough chairs or whatever it happened to be, we were. We were very judgmental of each other in the expectations that we had.

John Dehlin [02:03:11] Yeah. So this is another instance that's very, very common where in addition to all the good the Mormon Church does, it can create this toxic perfectionism and judgment in a marriage that's. Everyone's feeling bad about themselves, everybody feels like their partner's inadequate, and instead of really enjoying important parts of your life, everybody's just feeling awful. Even though you're all working so furiously hard to do everything right. Is that. Is that what you experienced?

Kyle Brost [02:03:40] Well, yes. One thing that I think is really important to understand here is when we talk about these experiences. So when I talk about my mission or we talk about the miscarriage, when we talk about our marriage, challenges, intimacy, when we talk about all this stuff, when we were in it, we would have never talked about it this way because we didn't see it when we were in it. We thought that's how it was supposed to be.

Neesha Brost [02:04:04] Well, we thought we were being tried and tested. And this is what we're supposed to be doing on this earth is like, I'm supposed to have this trial and I'm supposed to come out even more, more faithful and even stronger. And if I don't, then what does that say about me?

Kyle Brost [02:04:17] Right. And so it's just, I think it's a really important thing because I think people who maybe haven't been through this process, they hear people who have left the church talk about these experiences in this way. And it's very easy to say things like, well, if you experienced it like that, why did you ever stay? Or if it's not supposed to be like that, you're not supposed to experience it. If you knew the gospel the right way, you wouldn't have felt any of those things. And the reality is, is we're only able to see how harmful some of these experiences were. Now having more information and knowledge about ways that life can go. When we were in it, you would have heard us say during the miscarriage, you would have heard us say, like, yeah, we know that, you know, we're going to have this baby again. We know that our family's going to be eternal. We're so happy and grateful for that. During my mission, you would have heard me say, like, oh, it was such a beautiful experience and I want to go back out so bad, and I'm so excited to go back out. You would have not. In those moments, you would not have heard us talk about it this way. It's only because we have new information and a broader context that we're able to look back and say it didn't have to be like that. And actually, there was a lot of really, like, crappy, hard, difficult, unnecessary emotions bottled up in those experiences that we weren't able to see in the moment.

John Dehlin [02:05:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it sounds like, you know, maybe the. The sexual stuff of the first five or six years waned off. And partly that's just because life becomes so busy. You just are so busy doing everything else. But it sounds like you guys were living the Mormon dream, doing everything that you possibly could to do it. Right? And just at your core, even though you may not have even known it, you weren't really loving it or really finding a lot of joy in it. Is that fair to say or not?

Neesha Brost [02:06:06] Well, I. Possibly. It's fair to say. I also think that if there was a piece of need that. That felt like what you just described, then I would have dived in even deeper into it. Right. I would have served more. I would have read my scriptures more. I would have taken more notes at conference. I would have made sure that my kids had, like, the best family home evening we would have ever had or

Kyle Brost [02:06:29] just all of that. We wouldn't. We wouldn't have seen it for what it was. We would have seen it as something was missing.

Neesha Brost [02:06:35] We weren't.

Kyle Brost [02:06:37] We weren't doing something we were supposed to do. Because if you're truly living up to the gospel, then you will feel joy and peace and happiness. And so if anything's contrary to that or you're not feeling it at the right level, right, Then it's something that you're not doing. And so, again, it just goes back to. We see these things in this way now because we have a broader context and are able to evaluate them differently. But in the moment, we would. Wouldn't. There's no way. We would have said, like, I'm not feeling at peace. We would have said. We may have said that. But we would have also thought, well, it's because there's something else I need to be doing right?

Neesha Brost [02:07:12] Or it's like, Satan. Satan's getting to me. And it's probably because I watched, like, an episode of Grey's Anatomy last night. So I got into repentance for watching Grey's Anatomy because that is bringing the devil into my life. And now I'm feeling inadequate or feeling like I don't like.

Kyle Brost [02:07:27] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:28] And so even While you're in it, and it's probably not ultimately healthy or bringing you joy, you would never admit that. You would just see it as you need to work harder and you don't know what you're missing. If you're in the Garden of Eden, if you're in the bubble, if you're in the Truman show, you don't know what you're missing because you're in the bubble. Right?

Kyle Brost [02:07:52] Yes. That one is. If there is a storyline to take out of this for somebody who's out there in this position, it is that I thought I had happiness. I thought what I had was as much joy and happiness as you could have. And it's only in coming out of this experience that we've been able to say, holy shit, there is a whole world out there that is freaking amazing and we can be a part of it. We can find joy in the moment. Most simple, mundane things. We can find joy in the biggest things. We can pursue whatever path we want to pursue. If we're struggling with something, guess what? We can actually deal with it. We can acknowledge that it's there, the reality of what it is. We can figure out why it's there, and we can figure out ways to work through it. And just being able to have our eyes open in that way has been one of the most incredible experiences that I. That I could even imagine.

John Dehlin [02:08:51] Yeah, yeah. And I just want to. I'll just add that, you know, Natasha and I have done faith crisis retreats for many years, and one of the most important interventions we've ever found is a certain set of movies that really, really do capture the high demand religious experience. And those movies are Pleasantville, you know, the Matrix, Truman Show, Tangled, you know, Moana, the Invention of Lying. That, you know, there are some amazing movies that capture this phenomenon you guys are describing of like thinking that you're in the one true experience when in reality you're locked into a reality that is toxic for you and that is completely limiting your joy. But because you're locked in it, it and you're not allowed to see outside of it, you don't even know what you don't know. You don't even know what you're missing.

Neesha Brost [02:09:50] Right.

John Dehlin [02:09:51] Yeah. Okay. Well, is it. Thank you. That was beautiful. Should we talk. Okay. So should we talk about now when things start unraveling for you guys?

Neesha Brost [02:09:59] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:10:00] Okay. What year and what ages were you guys? Let's start there.

Kyle Brost [02:10:06] It was an evolving process that started probably, what, maybe 2017, 2018 is when it started for Me, but it didn't start directly about the church for me. It started by just so. My undergraduates in psychology have a master's in business, and I'm pursuing a PhD in psychology. And it started by just realizing what belief was in general, this idea of believing something. And I started to ask myself, well, one thing I realized is hopefully this isn't too esoteric for people. I think it's pretty straightforward. But one thing I realized was no two people are even capable of believing the same thing in the same way. And yet we want to use belief as the criteria for whatever comes next. For heaven, for exaltation, for salvation. We want to say that, that somebody's belief, literally what they think qualifies them for eternal salvation or exaltation, yet somebody else's belief disqualifies them. But no two people are capable of believing the same thing in the same way. And so that I, I had this realization several years ago about that, and I just thought, how does that work? How, how does that make any sense, that belief is the qualifier when it's so ambiguous and it's so impossible for two people to actually believe the same thing? Even within the Church, no two people believe God the same way. They all conceptualize God differently based on their, their knowledge, their education, their experiences, their own father figures, their own family relationships. So it started with that idea about three or four years ago. So I was probably, I was like 30 at the time. That wasn't a huge deal for me though. It didn't like really spur things. What it did is it opened my, it opened me up a little bit to be just a little less judgmental about other beliefs, a little less convinced that this was the only path. So I still thought the church was absolutely true. I just didn't see it as the only path. Like you have to believe this thing. And then it was early 2000, just

John Dehlin [02:12:24] to be clear, you said that that's your graduate graduate work in psychology started leading you to think that.

Kyle Brost [02:12:31] Yeah, just, yeah, studying, studying psychology and much so just studying neuroscience. How thoughts and beliefs and ideas are put together, how they can change over time, how inaccurate or accurate they can be, just that whole how it all works.

John Dehlin [02:12:45] And this is exactly what, why Mormonism and other high demand religions are always skeptical of higher education. It's okay if you, you know, accounting's fine, engineering's fine, lawyer's fine. But, but, you know, psychology has always been suspect because once you start realizing how the human brain works and how universal many of our experiences are, that the church likes to claim as unique and a testament to its truthfulness, that's dangerous to faith. So I can see why the church, Mormon Church, likes to warn people against certain fields and pursuits.

Kyle Brost [02:13:22] Well, and I actually had. When I entered my PhD program, I had several people say to me, you know what happens when you start learning too much? Or, you know, what happens to most of those academics? And so I had people make those comments to me about. I mean, they were pretty prophetic, but they did make those comments.

John Dehlin [02:13:40] They weren't wrong.

Kyle Brost [02:13:41] They weren't wrong.

John Dehlin [02:13:42] Okay, keep going. Next.

Kyle Brost [02:13:44] So then. So then. And at this time, I'm not trying to speak for Nisha, but at this time, Nisha's pretty much plugging away, like, in the church. Fully bought in, probably serving in a.

Neesha Brost [02:13:53] I'm making up for all the stuff you're not doing.

John Dehlin [02:13:56] What do you mean by that, Nisha? What do you mean?

Neesha Brost [02:14:00] I'm just so. Kyle traveled a lot during this time, so he was never really home, which probably is why we're still married. Just kidding. But I. I would take on whatever responsibility the church asked me to do. And typically, I would put my family last and the church first because I felt like that made me a more worthy and faithful member. And so when Kyle says something like that, it means, like, like, if they needed help with anything, I was there.

John Dehlin [02:14:36] Yeah.

Kyle Brost [02:14:37] So, okay, so that whole belief thing started a couple years ago, and then it was really the end of 2019. My. My kind of big moment was I was serving in a leadership calling. And we. The end of 2019, we got together for a ward council meeting, and we were doing the ward mission plan for 2020. And again, I had gotten to this place where I didn't see the church as, like, the only path, but I still thought it was true. I still had a testimony of it. But in the ward mission, as we're in a ward council, we're talking about the ward mission plan. It is. They just kept going to, like, we have to be teaching, we have to be converting. And I challenged it. I just. I said, why can't we just scrap all of this? And why can't we just make our ward mission plan for everybody in the ward to be the best friend they can, to, like, the people they come in contact with? And I got a lot of pushback. Like, a lot of people in the ward council were like, no, we have to have a number. We need to have a plan. Like, it doesn't matter if we can't convert people. And I just kind of stuck to my Guns. And that created a little bit of conflict. One person from the ward council came up to me afterward and, like, thanked me for. For Stan, you know, for kind of sticking my guns and bringing that point up. And we drafted our own. Like, we still have it hanging on our fridge. That's literally just a list of, like, 10 ways to be a friend. And it has nothing to do with trying to convert anybody. That, that experience in, like, standing up for something that I felt strongly about in front of the ward council, I think kind of broke the ice where I realized we're at enough conflict here that. That if I'm going to be at. If I'm going to get in conflict around just being somebody's friend versus converting somebody, maybe I need to, like, really do some more exploring. And so that's when I started to dive into, you know, the same stuff that a lot of people leave because of church history. I started to dive into a lot more of the church history. I'd already read most of the gospel topic essays before that, but I started to dive into some of the sources. I, you know, I read the CES letter. Letter from my wife life.

John Dehlin [02:16:46] Okay, can we jump back on that? So, so you. You're. You're starting to feel this experience with ward council or missionary work or whatever, you're feeling some tension between. So you start with kind of feeling like, well, maybe this isn't only the one true church. You've had some challenges in your marriage related to the church. You're probably not having all the joy that you think you should be. Then this conflict happens. And are you saying those kind of acted as things on your shelf or cracks in the foundation that led you to be open to exploring other questions?

Kyle Brost [02:17:24] Yeah, very much. Up until that point, if you look at kind of deconstructing faith, there are these secondary questions which are just that. Most people are not going to get angry at you for asking, did Christ wore sandals or did he have long hair, short hair? These secondary questions. And so I had built up a whole list of, like, secondary questions. These experiences really open the floodgates to me asking the primary questions, like, what's the actual origin of the Book of Mormon? How did this come about? What does it mean? Where, you know, is there evidence for the Book of Mormon? What about the theology of polygamy? What about, you know, the policy on race in the priesthood? Is it opened up the floodgates to me for me to ask those primary questions which really have implications for the theology?

John Dehlin [02:18:18] What made you even know that those questions Existed because a lot of people just don't. Don't even know the questions, let alone want to learn about them.

Kyle Brost [02:18:25] Because I'd already read the gospel. I mean, I was pretty well read as. As a Mormon. I read a lot. And I had already read most of the gospel topics essays, so I knew they were out there. But I always accepted the apologetic kind of version. Or I would create my own version of like, well, here's. And I would talk to Nisha, right? I'd be like, here's my own version of why it still works and why it's okay. So I kind of knew about them. But then there was this moment, just through that experience, where I thought, what is. What does somebody else have to say about this? All I've ever read are sources from other members of the church. Why am I, like, if I'm getting this kind of experience and pushing back in a ward council, why am I only consuming information from this group of people? What about other people who may see the world a little bit more similar to I am? And so that's what, you know, that's how I knew they were there from the gospel topics essays. And then being able to just explore outside sources. And then it doesn't take very long of exploring outside sources before you discover a thousand other issues.

John Dehlin [02:19:29] Yeah, that's the moment in Truman's show when the light stage. Light falls on the street, and he realizes he's in a big city sound studio or in Pleasantville when the. Everyone's black and white, and then all of a sudden the woman starts turning color. You kind of have, you know, tangle when she gets out of the tower and starts doing somersaults like. Or the, you know, the Village. I won't give away the ending to the Village, but that's another really great faith crisis movie. Shout out to our listener that recommended that there's that aha moment where you're like, oh, my gosh, could it be that this isn't what it claims to be? And then you're willing to pursue that instead of Groundhog Day going back in the hole, you're like, no, I'm coming out. So, Kyle, really quickly, what were the three to five biggest issues for you in the Truth Claims? Once you started studying them and talk enough about them? Because we're always gonna have listeners that don't even know what you're talking about. So tell us what the top three to five issues were and why they were problematic for you.

Kyle's Key Concerns About Church Truth Claims

Kyle Brost [02:20:29] Sure. So I'd say the first, just maybe in a chronological Order. The first was the first vision account. Account the piece to that. So the first vision account mattered to me because as a missionary that is what I built my lessons around. This concept that Joseph Smith went into a grove of trees, prayed and then saw physical beings, God and Jesus Christ and that they had this conversation with him. And I taught it in a very specific way as a missionary. I learned it a specific way and I learned it that way because it built a logic model if Joseph Smith saw God in Jesus Christ, if Joseph Smith did this. And so when I learned not so much that there were different accounts, but the timing of when those accounts came out. So we now know that there are multiple accounts of the first vision, I think four by Joseph Smith and then five additional ones. The first account of it didn't come out until after the organization of the church. And so to learn that this logic model is how I'm supposed to convert other people and then to find out that that original members of the church weren't even joining for that reason and then to find out additional context about it that it wasn't even that original of an experience, that there were other people who had had and documented very similar experiences.

John Dehlin [02:21:47] Dozens, dozens, dozens of people that were, you know, within one to five years of Joseph Smith's upbringing were having almost identical experiences and writing about them. So it was almost like, like yeah, who isn't having an experience with the divine? Yeah, we're, we're led to believe that it was like this one of the most theophany, one of the most important experiences in the history of the world. And that's not, that's not. Yeah, keep going.

Kyle Brost [02:22:14] Right, well and, and those other experiences were documented. They were published in local papers. They that and his wasn't. So that was a big one for me to find out the context around this whole first vision because again I had built so much of my testimony about the church church on this like pivotal moment that Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus Christ. And so to learn the complexity, to learn the issues with it was a big one for me. The second one was race in the priesthood. I grew up in a very conservative area. I grew up in a pretty like orthodox in terms of teaching the doctrine. So I read from Bruce R. McConkey Mormon Doctrine. I was taught that people of color were fence sitters in the pre existence. I was taught that race had something to do with behavior, that race was assigned by God, that it was okay that the church withheld blessings and ordinances and priesthood from those people because that was God's will. And then to have the church like try to do a whole like 180 and pretend like that was never doctrine, that it was never taught, that, that it wasn't God's will, like that to me was big because it threw the whole idea of prophets and prophesying and speaking to God into question. I just couldn't wrap my head around how can a prophet claim that they're talking to Jesus Christ and yet get something so wrong and it just doesn't match up. And then, you know, there were arguments when I was, was kind of battling through this. There were arguments about, well, it's just a man versus a prophet and God has to work through men. But then if that's true, God was still able to reveal crazy things. God was able to, you know, administer polygamy, which wasn't normal and accepted and ordinary. So he's powerful enough to reveal something like that, but yet he still, when it comes to race, he has to work through men and he can't reveal something. And so, so just that whole race in the priesthood was a really big one for me.

John Dehlin [02:24:25] Yeah. God can say now, don't have two ear piercings and don't drink tea, but like, can't get the revelation of don't be a racist, that, that you can't get kind of weird.

Kyle Brost [02:24:39] Yeah, yeah. And then the, the, the third one honestly just is more around just the prophetic. So once I saw the race and the priesthood issue, then you start to see the pattern of prophecy in the church that it virtually always follows advocacy. So people giving, like sacrificing their membership in the church, sacrificing their reputations in the church, giving all they can for a cause, the church shunning them, shutting them down, rejecting them only to several years to a decade later, then buy into and present those same ideas as revelation. So seeing that pattern was probably the third really big one. And that pattern is one that continues. And what's silly about that is the last five years I was active, my in laws would jokingly call me Prophet Kyle because I could tell you exactly what the church was going to do a year to two years before they did it. Because it's obvious, like you just look at where society's at that and what conversations people are having and what things people are advocating for and you can know exactly what the church is going to do a year to three years from now.

John Dehlin [02:25:52] Yeah, it's basically just social movement plus 10 years prophecy. That's kind of embarrassing. Social activism to the Mormon Church. Add 10 or 20 years. That's polygamy, blacks, you know, women, you know, LGBT, whatever it is. Add 10, 20 years. Miracle revelation.

Kyle Brost [02:26:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:13] Yeah.

Kyle Brost [02:26:14] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:26:14] Okay, so, okay, so what year were. Was your. Did your faith finally unravel, Kyle?

Kyle Brost [02:26:21] 2020. So from.

John Dehlin [02:26:23] Oh, that's last year.

Kyle Brost [02:26:25] Yeah, this is. This is. We're fresh.

Neesha Brost [02:26:27] We're babies.

Kyle Brost [02:26:28] Okay, so beginning 2020, right? Kind of after Covid, I had a business in. In Colorado. Denver, Colorado, that I had to close the offices for due to Covid it. And so I wasn't traveling as much. I had a bunch of free time on my hands. So that's when I like, dove into all this stuff. And it didn't take very long. I started probably February and March. By April or May. I was saying, it's Nisha, it's not true. Like, I don't believe it. There's no. There's no truth here. Like, I can't accept it. And she was still all in. So.

Neesha Brost [02:27:02] Yeah. Oh, go ahead.

John Dehlin [02:27:03] Yeah. Yeah. So this is your one year anniversary of losing your faith, Kyle. Like, we're at April. We're at April of 2021. So it's year.

Kyle Brost [02:27:10] Yep, it absolutely is.

Neesha's Faith Journey and Choosing Kyle

John Dehlin [02:27:11] Okay, so, yeah, I'm dying to now hear from you. Like, number one, did you have any idea that Kyle was going through this throughout all those years? And then tell us about what it was like once you caught on and then once he disclosed to you, did you ever have. Were you harboring your own doubts and questions and putting things on the shelf? Let's hear your version of the same story Kyle shared.

Neesha Brost [02:27:35] Sure. No, I don't doubt because the prophet told me not to, so I knew what he said. So earlier, when Kyle would bring up these, like, maybe more nuanced views or like, his own ideas, I would be pretty quick to like, shut him down and be like, that's not what the prophet says. So I think you're wrong. And looking back, I was just a mean person to his, like, beautiful mind trying to work. Right. Because I was so focused on what? Well, you're not allowed to think that. If the prophet tells you one thing, then that's it. End of discussion. So I don't know why you're trying to figure it out. Like, we've already been given the answer. Why waste your time? So I was not a very supportive wife to that. And Kyle is a vocal thinker, so he is constantly telling me his new ideas, which is great. And most of the time I love it. Except for when it was like, bring about, like, church Topics. But I'm like, no, that's not right. I don't think you read that right

John Dehlin [02:28:36] in your defense, Nisha, you were just being faithful. When a Mormon couple gets married, it's actually a three person marriage. It's the husband, the wife, and Jesus basically Heavenly Father. And you were just being faithful to the third person in your marriage. Marriage that actually is more important than your actual partner in many Mormon marriages. And that's another thing that becomes really toxic is if your husband is seeking, if your spouse is seeking truth and learning truth. And what you want to do is stop the thoughts, stop the learning, and keep your allegiance to the church over your spouse. You know, you're in a high demand religion that's acting cult like in that way. And so Nisha, don't beat yourself up. You were simply being faithful to the third person in your marriage. Does that make sense?

Neesha Brost [02:29:27] Right? No, it's true. And Kyle's an awesome person, but he doesn't really have a lot of friends. So when he would, you know, have these conversations, I was the one he would come to and I felt bad that I was shutting him down. But anyway, come last March, when you're talking about in the, in the Truman show and the lights turn on and things like that, I was quick to shut those lights off because he would come to me and he'd be like, did you know? And I'd be like, no, I didn't. I'll listen to you. But I also. Did you read your scriptures this morning? You know, made sure I asked him that. Or then the next day he'd come to me and he'd be like, nisha, did you also know this? I'd be like, oh, interesting. Kyle, I'll hear you out. Okay? But did you pray today? Like, are you doing all these other things? And also where are you reading now? Because I don't think these are church approved documents. So we, we fought probably every day for a good couple of months.

Kyle Brost [02:30:28] Yep. It got bad. It got really bad.

Neesha Brost [02:30:30] Really bad.

Kyle Brost [02:30:31] You know, I, we fought a lot. We asked if it, if we were gonna stay together. We asked if we were, if this was what was going to take us apart. There was one night where we fought intensely and I packed a bag and I left the house. And that was really hard because our oldest, who's nine, watched it. He watched us. He watched me walk out of the house, which he's watched me leave a lot for work. But I've always hugged him and told him, like, you know, I'll see you in A couple days. But that was. That was like the low point to leave for a night and go stay in a hotel room and.

John Dehlin [02:31:20] No.

Kyle Brost [02:31:20] And not know.

Neesha Brost [02:31:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:22] Anisha, what were you. What, what were you thinking? What were you feeling in that moment?

Neesha Brost [02:31:28] So many things. Right. I was feeling. Well, I hope he doesn't come back. He's already ruined our family. Like I think that.

John Dehlin [02:31:34] What do you mean? How rude your family explain to a non Mormon what you mean, mean.

Neesha Brost [02:31:39] Sure. So we're married in the temple. We were sealed in the temple. So my exaltation and salvation is dependent on being married to Kyle. I need him to get my family to the celestial kingdom, the highest glory, the highest kingdom of heaven in Mormonism. I need him and he is telling me now that this isn't true and he needs to back out. This is not what I signed up for. This is not why I had kids. This is not. This is not okay.

John Dehlin [02:32:08] And why did you want it? Why does a Mormon want to go to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom? Why'd you want to be there?

Neesha Brost [02:32:13] So we can continue on to learn and progress and become gods and see our families and have our own worlds eventually. Like all of these Mormon teachings, right? All of these doctrinal things that I learned growing up. This is why you work your whole life here on earth just to live this most amazing life life in the next. And

John Dehlin [02:32:35] he was ruining it.

Neesha Brost [02:32:37] He was definitely ruining it. And like we said, it was during COVID Our kids were home, they witnessed every single fight. And I mean, there would be times where we would have a fight and then Kyle would go walk for three hours and we would text while he was walking and keep fighting. And it would always come back to, well, can't you just stop, Kyle? Can't you stop learning? Can't you stop reading?

John Dehlin [02:33:03] What were the fights about? How would you fight? What was the content of the fights? What was the structure of the fight?

Neesha Brost [02:33:09] This is a great. Yeah, so for example, polygamy. Kyle would be like, did you know this about, you know, Joseph Smith and polygamy? And my first reaction is like, ugh, you're telling me lies right now. No, I don't know this. Who is. Who would have done that? No, he Never married a 14 year old woman or girl. That never happened. He's a prophet of God. Why are you saying these terrible lies? And I would get very defensive because this is my Mormonism, was my identity. So what? I felt like he was saying these things about the history of the church. I felt like he was Attacking me. And I think that that's. It's hard to talk to anybody else about this because I know they feel that same way when I say some things that they don't know about church history. It feels like you're attacking me personally and my personality and my integrity and all my morals and values. So we would fight. We thought about that. Or we thought about the book of Abraham. Like, I was like, what are you talking about? That's not real. Kyle Joseph Smith was inspired and he translated and of course it's real. Well, no, Misha does not. So just these giant fights of, like, Kyle, where are you getting your information?

Kyle Brost [02:34:26] That. And then we had big fights about. About me doing stuff like, right. Whether like not praying enough or not reading my scriptures or not reading outside sources or not stopping. So we would get in fights where she'd be like, I'd want to bring something up and she'd be like, like, we would fight about that.

Neesha Brost [02:34:45] Like that don't talk to me today, right.

Kyle Brost [02:34:47] That I have hadn't stopped consuming information. And I think it's so hard in that space because. Because this is everything. When you're in it, it is everything. And so when you start to see the holes, I couldn't stop myself. It wasn't like I could just say, oh, I'm gonna stop and believe it. Once the hole started, I was like, I have to know. Like, I have to figure this out. And so Nisha was telling me to stop, but I was like, there's something here. Like, I can see some sort of light down there and I need to dig until I find whatever it is that I'm seeing. And so it was. Those were really hard conversations because she was just. She was, you know, in her own way, pleading with me to stop and just believe. And I was seeing this light somewhere that I just couldn't. I had to keep digging to uncover. And it caused so much tension, so much that.

John Dehlin [02:35:39] But yeah, and I just have to add that if Nisha, you're saying, having been the non believing spouse at one point, having Margi say to me, read your scriptures and pray, it's like, okay, I'll pray, but I'm not getting any answers. And I'll read the scriptures, but all I'm seeing are anachronisms and racism. Reading the scriptures when you're in a full Mormon faith crisis, praying and reading the scriptures, for many, it makes the problem worse. It's not just not the answer to the problem, it actually exacerbates the problem. Is that true for you guys, because that was true for me.

Kyle Brost [02:36:24] Yeah. One of the fights we got into was we talked about repentance. And I remember telling Nisha, like, like Mormon repentance is a tool that does not work for me. And she was like, because that is

Neesha Brost [02:36:38] like, you need to repent right now.

John Dehlin [02:36:40] Yeah, that's, that's sacrilege. Yeah.

Kyle Brost [02:36:42] But for me, and I tried to explain, I tried to explain, like I can't just pray like these feelings away. I can't just feel better by believing that all of a sudden I've been forgiven for something that I don't even know if it's a sin anymore anymore. And we're not gonna talk about sex stuff anymore. It's like I would cuss and like, I. Why would I pray for something that I don't even see as a sin anymore? And so trying to explain to her that the like, something so core is the repentance process in Mormonism was a flawed tool that no longer worked for me. And that honestly at the time I didn't see worked for anyone. And I was saying that kind of stuff. We, you know, so that's one where she was like, how you can't say that like this is, is so core to like God's plan. How can. You must totally be an apostate. You must be like controlled by the devil to, to think or feel these things.

John Dehlin [02:37:36] Yeah. And this is where again, we can, we can talk about all the good things about the Mormon Church and how profamily it is. But you know, at a certain point, the Mormon Church is anti intellectual, it's anti learning. Or at least the culture up until 2021 is heavily anti truth, anti science, anti intellectual. There are going to be exceptions to that, but that's clearly what you were experiencing. That's how I grew up. And I think tens of thousands of people leaving the church every year would agree that this whole, you know, if you look at like Stephen Hassan's work on the bite model and how, you know, high demand religions and or cults control behavior, they control information, they control your thoughts and they manipulate you through emotion. This idea of thought stopping. Nisha, you were acting as a thought stopper to Kyle. You're saying, stop learning, stop thinking. And all Kyle was doing was actually learning the truth. And so it was good what Kyle was doing. And the only other thing I have to say is the Mormon Church can speak all day long about being pro families. And it maybe is if everybody is, is orthodox Mormon, but the church is. The Mormon Church is anti Family. To any member of the family that isn't orthodox.

Neesha Brost [02:38:59] Right, right.

John Dehlin [02:39:00] And so. And so marriage is hard enough. Finances, raising kids, emotional intimacy, sexual intimacy, earning a living, dealing with your own mental health and in laws. Now you guys have the church literally driving a wedge between you and your marriage. And that's unconscious. And that's where it. That's where something that's this benign, you know, imperfect but jolly, lovable church becomes toxic. It becomes deadly. And I'm just going to say that I have a. A flow of comments from people saying I've been separated from my wife for six months because we're in the same situation. My wife and I have been through this. Like, I'm just saying There's. We have 800 listeners right now, live streamed across YouTube and Facebook, and I'm seeing multiple messages of people saying, me too, me too, me too. And this is why the Open Stories foundation exists. This is why I started Mormon Stories Podcast. This is why the Mormon podcasting world is so vibrant. It's because the Mormon Church can destroy families for no good reason. And it was destroying yours.

Kyle Brost [02:40:14] It came so close to destroying ours. So after the night that I left, I did come back the next day, and we sat down and we asked ourselves. We literally asked ourselves. We each of us asked the other person, are you going to choose your beliefs or are you going to choose our relationship? And we had already hit rock bottom, so we were fine answering whatever we needed to answer. But we literally asked that question, nisha, will you choose the church or will you choose me? And she asked, Kyle, will you choose this path you're going or will you choose me?

Neesha Brost [02:40:51] Right?

Kyle Brost [02:40:52] And we both said, we'll choose each other. So if that meant that I had to stop, stopped, I was willing to stop. I was willing to fake it for who knows how long. And if it meant that Nisha needed to give me room or to leave the church in order to make it work, she said she was willing to do that. So, I mean, that was a really big moment, because that moment is what finally allowed us to come together in this process, to have that burden of, not only am I going through a faith crisis, but to know that at least if I'm going through a faith crisis, my marriage can be there as a support and as a fall as I'm going through this. And so that was a huge, pivotal moment for us to know, okay, whatever comes next, we're at least going to do this together.

John Dehlin [02:41:46] I mean, the hair on my arms and on my back is standing up. I'M getting that spirit tingly feeling right now. Can the Holy Ghost inspire someone on Mormon Stories podcast? Can. Can the Holy Ghost inspire me, an apostate of the church? I'm not sure, but I just felt the Holy Ghost anyway. That was beautiful. Nisha, I have to ask you, like there are so many instances where the believing spouse does not, you know, that question you ask is so fundamental. Are you married to me or are you married to the church? Do you choose me or do you choose the church? And there are so many believing Mormons that choose the church that say, wait, if it's between you husband and the church, I'm going with the church and you as either my ex husband or as an eternal disappointment. But what was it? Can you talk us through that crucial moment? Because there's so many people here, my believing wife or spouse has kicked me out of the house or they think that I'm bad or they think that I'm worthless or they look down on me or they whatever it is and they haven't chosen their non believing partner over the church. Nisha, take as much time as you want to tell us how you arrived at that position that so many people can't and have it.

Neesha Brost [02:43:15] Sure. I hope I do it justice. This number one, when we asked that question to each other, I just realized I loved Kyle for who he was and I was willing to accept him for where he was at. So that's number one. So I needed to give him that. Number two, I had an ulterior motive because I was like, if I start researching things then maybe I will turn his views and I will teach him the truth. And then a third component was I, my sister in law left the church a couple years ago and I talked to my brother often through this process because he is still believing. But his wife left and I just asked him how, how do I stay? How do I keep my testimony when I feel like I'm being attacked every day? How do I do that?

John Dehlin [02:44:11] This.

Neesha Brost [02:44:11] And just in talking to him I realized how hard it could be and how detrimental to our marriage it could be if I continue to choose the church and trying to save this lifestyle that I thought we were going to have, how hard it could be for our us down the road. And so knowing that I loved Kyle and that I wanted to keep our family together, I just told myself, okay, Nisha, you can start to research some things too and see where Kyle's coming from. Because if I'm going to support him in this, then I need to do it the Best I can. And then again, maybe I'll learn something that will help bring him back. So I wish I could say I was like this awesome person, but my. My motive was to bring Kyle back because I thought I could. And so I just. I knew a lot of the things that Kyle had already told me about church history, but I. I started reading the gospel topic essays and starting to talk to Kyle about them. I talked to my brother about them. I talked to my sister in law who left about them. Because when you're going through this, your pool of people to talk to is so small. Because I was afraid. I was afraid of what others might think of me who didn't know we were going through this situation. Right. And again, I knew that if I started to bring up some of these issues that I was learning and reading with some of my believing membered family, that they would also think, nisha, what are you doing? Why are you reading these things? And when I say these things, the first things I ever read were just the gospel topic essays. So as I started reading, I would read the gospel topic essays, and things actually started to kind of make sense of where Kyle was coming from.

John Dehlin [02:46:21] Nisha, tell us which essays and. And because I just love taking time on this. Which essays and which topics started to make sense to you or cause you to question if you can remember? If you can remember.

Neesha Brost [02:46:36] Sure. Joseph Smith and polygamy was a big one.

John Dehlin [02:46:39] What was wrong with that?

Kyle Brost [02:46:40] Okay, what's wrong with that?

Neesha Brost [02:46:41] Right, right. What's wrong with that? Honestly, I. Like I said, I grew up in Liberty and went to Nauvoo, Illinois a lot. I was immersed in a lot of church history. I did not know Joseph Smith was a polygamist. I was taught my entire life that he was not a polygamist. And so when I found out from the church he was in fact a polygamist and he married underage girls. This is from the gospel topic essay. Was it polygamy in Nauvoo? Yeah, it's called.

John Dehlin [02:47:11] Yeah.

Neesha Brost [02:47:12] When I read that, I was shocked. Shocked that nobody had ever told me that before. How could I have taken a history class of the church? And that was never brought up? Why was I defending Joseph to friends and that weren't members about him not being a polygamist when he was. I was made out to look pretty stupid in front of people when the church that I believe so heavily in wasn't telling me the full truth from the very beginning.

Kyle Brost [02:47:45] Yeah.

Neesha Brost [02:47:46] And then when I started to learn a little bit more about polygamy I just. I was also reading at the time this book called Escape by Carol Carolyn. Just Justin Jessup. Jessup. Thank you. I started to see that I was making concessions for the leader of our church, Joseph Smith, that I wouldn't make for Warren Jeffs. And then I watched, what was it, Waco on Netflix, and watched David Koresh. And I was like, whoa, wait a minute. This man is a modern Joseph Smith, and why are people acting this way to him? Why are they killing him?

John Dehlin [02:48:28] But there's that. There's that amazing moment in Waco where I think he's sitting on the roof with that guy. You remember that? And he's like, the Lord has called me to lift from you the burden of sex with your wife, and I'm going to take upon me the burden of sex with your wife.

Neesha Brost [02:48:48] No, that's not.

John Dehlin [02:48:49] Okay.

Neesha Brost [02:48:49] These are things like. So I read the polygamy essay on the church's website, and then I checked it out on FairMormon, and then I checked it on JosephSmithPapers.org because those were all sites that I felt like I could get actual information that the church.

Kyle Brost [02:49:02] Church.

Neesha Brost [02:49:03] That was approved by the church because I still wanted to make sure that I was following the prophet's counsel. Right. And so as I started reading that, I just thought, there's no way if this was Kyle, that I would be okay with what he was doing. So that was a really big issue for me. And I started to see, like, okay, Kyle, I can understand where maybe you're coming from this. And then what were the other ones? The Word of Wisdom. So the Word of Wisdom. Yeah, that was interesting one, too. And then just to do a little bit more research on where the word of wisdom even came from and how it's evolved over the years. Just like Kyle was mentioning earlier that prophecy tends to follow social norms and how the word of wisdom has changed. And then as you just start to read more and more, going back to what Kyle said about prophets, I started to realize that, wait a minute. Like, when do I know when this man is talking to me like a prophet versus when he's talking to me like a man? I thought. I thought he was always talking to me like a prophet. Why would he have something documented on the church's website that would be him talking like a man? And how can that be, like, false? How can people be like, oh, that was just him talking like a man? And I'd be so confused. And then I brought this other element of, well, if the church is based upon personal Revelation. That's how the church started, right? When I'm praying about these things and I'm not feeling good about Joseph Smith and polygamy, and my personal revelation is telling me that this is bad, and it's starting to contradict the church. Who do I listen to? Do I listen to myself and my own personal revelation and my own inner feelings, or do I stick to what the church is telling me and what the prophets have told me, that this is okay because it's of God? I started to get really confused about who is God? What is he telling people? Can I even hear him? Like, what's happening through this whole process? Like I said, I. I continued to talk to Kyle about it. I started to see more and more how his views were starting to align with my views and obviously, like, vice versa. And it started to just bring us closer together instead of tear us apart. And honestly, that was beautiful for us because we had spent the previous six months just in a terrible situation. And I'm grateful that I was able to get to a point to say, I love you enough. Let me. And I trust you enough. Let me just see what you're reading. Let me just see if I can understand where you're coming from. It's not fair for me to disregard anything he's going to tell me if I haven't even done my own research in my own part. So I'm grateful that I was able to come to that decision, to trust Kyle enough and to love him enough. Enough to just say, okay, if you are going to do this, let me try to be a part of it. And ultimately, that led us together and has been so good for us.

Kyle Brost [02:52:52] There was a moment after Nisha had done a lot of reading and I think had finally, like, arrived at her own conclusions throughout the process. When I was studying, one of the things that would happen is she would ask me, like, why are you doing this? Why are you doing this to us? And I would always say, like, I'm not the one. I'm not the one doing this to us. Like this. I didn't create this situation. I'm not the one that put us into this situation. Like, the church is the one that put us into this situation. And I would. I would say that to her, and she would ask me that a lot, like, why are you doing this to us? And it was several months after Nisha had. After we were out together, we were kind of living. We'd done a TikTok video that had been pretty emotional, and. And I kind of broke down afterward. And I was just hugging Nisha and I was breaking down, and I said to her, I'm so sorry. And then I just said, I'm so sorry. I didn't do this to us. It's not my fault. And she said, yes, it is. It is your fault. You got us out. And that was like a really big healing moment for us because I had felt so much blame through this process of, why are you doing this to us? And to get to a point where she could say, you did this to us, and I'm grateful that you did. Meant a lot.

John Dehlin [02:54:24] That is such a beautiful story. I want to clap. I'm so happy for you guys. That's so beautiful.

Kyle Brost [02:54:34] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:54:35] And I'm. And I'm sitting with all the people that are listening who haven't yet reached that point, because one of the main reasons we do this is to help people reach that point. And, And. And some do and some don't. Hopefully more will than won't, and hopefully more will because of your story. But I. I just want to note, number one, how beautiful that was. Number two isn't. You know, there was a time where I'll tell a quick story just for. Just. I have to tell the story. So a guy tells me he bears his testimony once, and he gets up and he says, I. I'm not sure the church is true. True. You know, I hope the church is true, but I don't know the church is true, you know, and then he sits down, and then the bishop rushes up and says, well, if he doesn't know, I know with every fiber, it might be the church is true, you know, and the guy said to me later, he's like, why? I was just being vulnerable. Like, all I wanted was empathy. Why. Why did that bishop feel like he had to, like, scold and shame me? And the thought that came to my mind was, there's nothing more dangerous to orthodox Mormon faith than empathy.

Kyle Brost [02:55:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:52] And you. You developed it, Nisha. To your credit, you developed it for. You reached a breaking point, and you chose your husband.

Neesha Brost [02:56:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:05] And that was the beginning of you saying, well, I guess I bet, you know, and even if you had bad intentions or not bad intentions, but even if your intentions were to reconvert him, I mean, how many people have gone down that road of, I'm going to reconvert my loved one by studying the problems with the Mormon Church, and then they lose their faith. But it began with the desire of yours to be empathetic. And that's so problematic because on the one hand, we're all frustrated that orthodox Mormons are like, don't tell me the issues. Don't talk to me. I don't want to hear it. And that's what you were doing, Nisha, year after year after year gear. Don't tell me anything about it. Don't talk to me. I don't want to hear. Read your scriptures, pray. We're not going to talk about it. Yes, of course you're doing that. That's. That's. That's frustrating for those of us on the outside. But look what happened when you were empathetic, right? Empathy led to you learning, and learning led to you realizing that actually Kyle was. Was learning the truth, not evil things.

Neesha Brost [02:57:03] Right, Right, right, right. And it was. Yeah. I don't even know what to say to all of that because it just builds up and it just brings up all of our emotions of. I feel like it. Our whole faith journey was, like, in hyperspeed almost. Because there was times during Kyle's transition where I was like, you know, it's Covid. We're not even going to church. Like, don't worry about it. But it was because we also had so much. We had time on our hands that we could give this the time that it needs. Because this isn't something that, like, we just. I didn't just wake up one day and be like, okay, today's the day where I'm not going to believe anymore. Took, like, months of reading and months of praying and months of talking about it to really come to the conclusion that this was. That staying in was not going to be beneficial for our family. And even though Kyle offered to continue to stay in for. For as long as we needed to, to, you know, be a support to me, I just realized, you know, with what I'm learning, that wouldn't work either. How long could that actually work? And we have kids. And as I continued learning and searching, I think one of the biggest aha. Moments for both of us, and for me, too, especially, was I did want this eternal family, but it wasn't going to risk the family I had here on Earth to get that, because I wanted to value him and I wanted to value my children. And as I kept reading, I thought, I can't teach my kids some of these doctrines. I cannot. One of our. One of our kids is a little bit more. We have three little boys. One of them is a little bit more feminine. And we were always, deep down, a little bit worried that he might be gay. And I couldn't after I learned some more. I couldn't feel good about teaching him that a lifestyle that maybe he would choose would be wrong, or deny him a family or deny him love in this life, or, heaven forbid, have him be one of those poor kids who decides to take his life because we were telling him God didn't appreciate or accept the way he was gonna live. So much of me learning about the church just solidified that I need to protect my family here and love him today and do the best I can today and not worry so much about what's going to happen in the end.

Navigating LGBTQ Issues and Leaving the Church

Kyle Brost [03:00:21] That was a really hard. It was really hard while we were believing. So I mentioned that I've studied psychology. So having a child and we have no idea where he'll go, what his identity will be, but. But having a child and having this conflict of knowing on one hand that he is born and biologically however he is, and that there is nothing that I could do to change that part of his identity, but at the same time feeling like if his identity stayed that or becomes that, that his salvation and exaltation was at risk was this constant conflict as a parent of. Of I love my child. I want this eternal thing for them. I feel pressure to change them so they can have this eternal thing. But I know logically that there's nothing I can do to change them. So how do I show them love? How do I deal with this? Like these two totally opposite things that just can't coexist was really hard as members. And that was one of the greatest reliefs in coming to the conclusion that it's not true was to say, I don't have to feel any of that anymore. I can just love this kid for. For everything that he is and not feel this weight and this pressure to change him or make him something that he's not. And that carried over not just to our kids, but our marriage in terms of being able to say to each other, I can just love you for everything that you are. I don't need you to be something else. That was big. That was one of the best things in losing our Mormon faith is just being able to love and support people for who they are.

John Dehlin [03:02:14] So beautiful, so beautiful, so inspiring.

Kyle Brost [03:02:22] This journey has been a really beautiful one for us. And we obviously, we talk a lot about the terrible parts of it because it was really hard.

Neesha Brost [03:02:32] It was really hard. And like we've talked about before, there were just some things where it didn't need to be that hard. Some of those teachings didn't need to be that Toxic.

Kyle Brost [03:02:42] And it's been nice, though. The end result of this and where we're at now has truly been a beautiful story.

Neesha Brost [03:02:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:54] We are all so inspired and moved by the story. I'm just speaking on behalf of the 800 plus live listeners that are joining us. It's a huge audience.

Neesha Brost [03:03:07] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:03:08] People are loving your story, and I'm just super grateful for it. So, Kyle. So, Nisha, you were saying. Why are you doing this as Kyle? You guys got through that. And Ed, Kyle, what was your answer? Why were you doing this to us? What is the answer?

Kyle Brost [03:03:28] I think the answer is because I cared. I cared. And I think this is something that's really hard. Even now, we know that some of our closest friends and our deepest loved ones don't feel safe around us as ex Mormons. And that's really hard because the only thing that's not safe around us. I don't. There's not. I think it's hard because they are safe. Like, we. I just care. We care. And we're not out to destroy anybody's faith. We're not out to destroy anybody's family. We're not out to destroy anybody's identity. We're not out to destroy anything that matters to them. We just want them to be able to make good decisions for themselves. We want them to be able to recognize when a belief or a practice or a teaching is not helping and is harming. We just want them to be able to see those things because we care. And so knowing that people don't feel safe around us because we care so much about them being able to live their own courageous life. Life is a really hard thing to deal with. But that was it all along. I. The only reason I did it is because I cared.

Neesha Brost [03:04:52] Mm.

John Dehlin [03:04:55] And, Nisha, now. Now that. Now that you can see that what Kyle was doing was trying to care for your family, what do you. What do you say to Kyle, or what do you feel about Kyle now?

Neesha Brost [03:05:09] I mean, obviously, I feel just immense gratitude that he was willing to take a risk. Risk. Because that was a huge risk. Not only was it just. I mean, if you're thinking in Mormon theology, a risk for his salvation, but it was a risk for our entire family because he had no idea how I was going to respond. I could have easily said, like, okay, after this first conversation, we need to be done, or don't ever talk to me about it again. But what a wedge that would have put into our marriage. And I felt like. Like we had overcome purity, culture. We had overcome, you know, hardships, financial hardships, and. And going to school and miscarriages, and, I mean, I feel like the overall foundation of our marriage was good. And I do love Kyle, so I just. I'm so grateful that he decided to. To take a chance and risk it and just try his best. I mean, that was a pretty ballsy move, babe.

John Dehlin [03:06:17] I love it. Let me ask you guys a question that was asked to me by Leah Remini and Mike Rinder. I've. I've been so honored to have had Mike Rinder, ex Scientologist, on Mormon stories and then to have Leah Remini and Mike Rinder have me on Fair Game podcast recently. And Leah asked this question as a scientist, ex Scientologist, knowing nothing, literally nothing about Mormonism other than, like, Marie Osmond. That's all she knew. And. And she said, what's. What's wrong with Mormonism? Like, nice families, happy families, you know, big families, smiley people. What's. What's wrong with Mormonism? What's wrong with the way of life? Why would Mormonism need the, you know, a John Dehlin or a Mike Rinder with. Why. Why would Mormonism even need that? It's not like Scientology. It's not putting people in cages. It's not physically beating people. It's not forcing women to have abortions. It's not Scientology. It's this good, you know, like on the south park episode. It's this Glee. It's good, clean, happy, loving, committed family that sings songs for. For Family Home evening and that reads their scriptures and loves each other. When you talk, Nisha, about him being courageous and this potentially putting your marriage at risk, I want to ask you both to really take your time to answer this question. Why is it worth the risk if. If Mormonism is, as Leah Remini says, this beautiful, idyllic, smiley, happy people, or even if it's just not Scientology, but it's just a decent way of life. Why is it ever worth questioning? Why was it worth Kyle risking the marriage? And why in the heck are you guys happy now that you've left it? If it's as idyllic as kind of the Osmonds would have wanted us to think it was, why was that a good thing at all? Why was it a harmful thing?

Neesha Brost [03:08:22] Thing?

John Dehlin [03:08:22] Can you answer either of those questions? And each of you take your time.

Kyle Brost [03:08:28] So the first thing that comes to my mind is. I don't. There's probably some irony here, but the first thing that comes to my mind is honestly agency. So you may not be shackled you may not be beaten. But the way that Mormonism is taught, the way that knowledge is shared in terms of coming down from or through other people, the way the emotions are taught, for me, robs people of their actual agency. It steals people's voices by telling them that certain emotions mean certain things, that certain emotions are harmful or bad versus other emotions are good or indicate truth. So for me, it's all about one how much agency can you actually have? Have when you have guidelines put on who you can be and who you have to listen to and how much knowledge or information you can have about something? And then how much agency can you have when you are so deeply indoctrinated about how thought and answers and emotion actually work that you buy into a set process? You don't get the freedom, the agency, to learn your own voice, to learn how your emotions work and what they may be telling you about your own life, your own experience. So for me, the harmful piece is not. I do think that there are some beautiful teachings in Mormonism, and I do think that it's good for some people at some points in their life. I do think also that if people are too bought into it, that it robs them of agency and of their own voice. And I think that's what so harmful.

Neesha Brost [03:10:17] I think it also robs them of true friendships and other relationships outside of it. Because although, like you said, there may not be a physical cage that's made. There is a box of perfectionism that you are supposed to be in. And that's evident when you go to your temple recommend interview. If you don't fit the those, if you don't check those boxes, then are you really a worthy member? Are you really worthy in the eyes of God? And so you are living your entire life in this judgmental state of yourself and of others. I feel like. So it makes it so hard for you to. I'm sorry. It made it hard for me to really love others and to love others outside of Mormonism because I was so judgmental. Because if you. If you could only know what God was telling the people today, wouldn't you do it? So to go back to Kyle, it robs us of friendships, it robs us of our own identity, and it robs us of our own voice because we're still trying to fit in this little box of perfectionism. And that's just not. Not. It's not fair to raise kids like that, and it's not fair to keep yourself in that either, because you'll never know who you really are.

Kyle Brost [03:11:43] Right.

John Dehlin [03:11:46] Beautiful. And yeah, Nisha, as I, you know, we are all seeing how lovely both of you are. And then I'm thinking there's the saying, and it's not to demonize religion. I've tried every step of the way, today's interview, to say there's to be going good and then there's. Then. Then it goes toxic and then there's good, and then it gets toxic. Right. There's so much good of Mormonism, but there's this saying that, you know, good people will do good things and bad peoples will do bad. Bad people do bad things. Sometimes it takes a religion to get good people to do bad things. Right. And I. We're going to be releasing an interview next week about a guy named Mark Osland, who's a BYU baseball player and happy go lucky kid who converts to the church and then becomes kind of a mean guy because of the shame and perfectionism spiral that he falls into where he's having doubts, but then he's judging his wife and saying, why are you having doubts? And he hated the temple, but then he's mad at his wife for hating the temple. Like Mormonism can. Can. It doesn't always, but it can turn you into a judgmental, mean, unkind person. And Nisha, it sounds like as lovely as you are and were, you were just. You were always probably fearful and angry at yourself and at Kyle and how is that a fun way to live?

Neesha Brost [03:13:12] There wasn't.

John Dehlin [03:13:13] Or healthy.

Neesha Brost [03:13:14] We loved it. I was that. And I think that was like me on the outside, right? On the. I'm sorry. On the inside. On the outside. I was like, oh, hey, how are you? Yeah, let's be friends on the inside. I'm like, you're doing that? Or I mean, even I respect the hell out of people who can be a Mormon and just do what they want to do. We have a set of friends who they just do what they want to do and they are cool just being Mormon that way. And I was so hard for me to be her friend because I was like, but you're not. Not doing it right. You're not doing it the way they said to do it. And it was so hard. And then once we left, I was like, girl, I can love you who you are as you are, because I literally don't care how you're living.

John Dehlin [03:14:04] No ifs, ands, or buts.

Neesha Brost [03:14:05] It's so beautiful.

Kyle Brost [03:14:08] You know, a really practical example of just how this, I don't know, this idea of agency is this, this whole thing of serving in the church. I love service, and I think that it's a really important element of society. I think it's a really great experience for children. I think it's great for us. Like, I love service. The challenge is I was always being tasked with service and being told to magnify that, like, type of service in ways that often were not a part of, like, who I actually am and where I have, like, passion and skill around. And so sometimes I would be doing service of just stuff that. That I really didn't have a skill set around. And after trying for years of doing it, I wasn't very good at. I was executive secretary like, five times, and I'm a terrible, like, just terrible at organization. Well, I think what's frustrating about it now is I would love to serve. Serve, but I want to serve in a way that's authentic to me, because I feel like that's where I can really bring value. And being in this place we are now, I can do that. I can say, hey, I'm willing to give service.

Neesha Brost [03:15:18] Right?

Kyle Brost [03:15:18] And I'm willing to give a lot of it where I'm good at it and where it brings value to me and to other people. But in the church, it was always this battle because it was like, I don't actually like or enjoy, and I'm not good at it, and I don't want to. And so I think that those are just small examples of where they're are telling you to be one thing, but. But you know, deep down that there's something else about you that you're. You're better at, you're more passionate about, is more value driven for you, those kind of things, but you just don't really get that. That opportunity.

Neesha Brost [03:15:48] Right.

John Dehlin [03:15:50] I love it. I love it. Yeah. It's almost like you graduate. And this is Richard Rohr. There's a book called Falling Upward by a Catholic wisdom leader named Richard Rohrer. We've talked about it with the Janice Spangler podcast and others, but it's almost this idea that the church. And tell me if you guys are okay with this, that when your families are messed up, when you're poor, when you're struggling, when you don't have direction, the church can be like training wheels to kind of give you structure, community, motivation, financial support, whatever it is you need. And in many ways, that can be good. But then what gets interwoven with that are toxic messages about shame and worthiness and modesty and perfectionism that, that. That really make it a mixed bag where the church is helping you, but it's also poisoning you slowly. And then at some point, hopefully, you mature to the point where you start to see the church for what it really is and how it's poisoning you. And this isn't everyone, but for people like us, you get to the point where you realize how the church is poisoning you. And then you graduate, and then you say, hey, thank you. You helped me out for many decades in ways that I needed. You also took a lot from me. You also poisoned me. I'm also gonna spend the next five or ten years trying to do therapy to fix some of the ways you poisoned me. And it's time to graduate to level two, you know, level five, whatever it is like a new level where truth matters, reality matters, kindness really matters, and relationships are real, marriages are more real, communities are more real, and you're living a real life. Instead of in the tower, instead of in the tower, instead of in Pleasantville, instead of in, you know, the Truman show, instead of in the Matrix, you break out.

Kyle Brost [03:18:03] Yeah, it's spiral dynamics.

John Dehlin [03:18:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that episode. All right. Okay, so what else do you guys want to say about out? Your. Your. This has been beautiful. So I want to get to tick tock and then I want to get to your disciplinary council. What else should we say about your. Your losing your faith? Anything else? Or did we cover it?

Coming Out as Ex-Mormon

Kyle Brost [03:18:29] I think. I think we covered it pretty well. I think, you know, at this kind of time in our storyline, we both reached a point where we were out. We had kind of.

John Dehlin [03:18:38] How long ago was this? How long ago was this?

Kyle Brost [03:18:40] So this was probably November of last year.

John Dehlin [03:18:43] Okay. Okay. So we're like, we're talking five or six months.

Neesha Brost [03:18:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah, kind of. I officially, like, decided to be out, I think the beginning of this year.

Kyle Brost [03:18:52] Like, January. Yeah, like, right, Beginning of January.

Neesha Brost [03:18:54] January.

Kyle Brost [03:18:55] But that was making. That was like when Nisha asked to

Neesha Brost [03:18:58] be released from my calling.

Kyle Brost [03:18:59] Right. So I had sent an email last July saying, hey, release me from my calling. Take me off ministering. You know, I'm done with all that. Nisha was keeping her calling, and then it was in January where we sent a shared email together that said, hey, you know what? Let's. We're just going to take a step back. It wasn't mean or rude. And honestly, people were really kind. Both times that we sent emails to the leadership. The only reason we sent an email both of those times was because we were both in leadership callings. So we didn't really talk about, like, we're leaving the church. We didn't say anything like that. We just really said, said we're, you know, taking some time for our family. We're going to focus on things that we feel are meaningful and valuable right now. And part of that, we, you know, want to be released from our callings. And people were, for the most part, the bishop at the time was. Was receptive and kind. Obviously they had some questions, but we just kind of deflected those questions. And so, yeah, that was January.

John Dehlin [03:20:02] Wow. And that's literally just like three months ago.

Neesha Brost [03:20:05] Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:07] Wow. Okay, let's Transition now to TikTok. And if we have to go back in the story, like, this is a really important part because podcasts have, you know, the Internet has changed Mormonism, Google has changed Mormonism, Podcasts have changed Mormonism, YouTube has changed Mormonism, Instagram is changing Mormonism and now TikTok and Twitter. But also TikTok is changing Mormonism and the ex Mormon progressive Mormon Twitter community. Sorry, TikTok community is vibrant when it doesn't self destruct and implode. It's vibrant and super effective and powerful. And so let's go back to the beginning. How did you guys start out being on YouTube? Sorry, TikTok.

Discovering the Ex-Mormon TikTok Community

Neesha Brost [03:20:59] Oh, well, Kyle had looked at ex Mormon TikTok while he was going through his faith journey, and I was like, stop it. Stop looking at that stuff. Why are you doing that?

Kyle Brost [03:21:09] Well, so I just need to give a shout out to, like, that community on TikTok for a couple of reasons. One thing that's unique about. I think that's unique about TikTok is you can come across, like, ex Mormon, ex vangelical, ex religion. You can come across that content without ever trying to search it. So it actually did play a small role in, like, how I started to find information. I first found out about the CES letter and a letter from my wife from TikTok without searching because there was no way for me to. It's not like a search platform. And so I just want to give a shout out.

John Dehlin [03:21:44] Has it been around that long? I thought your faith crisis predated TikTok.

Kyle Brost [03:21:49] Well, my. My main. No, my main TikTok or my. My main faith crisis was just last year. Okay, okay.

John Dehlin [03:21:55] Okay. Got. Got it. Okay, so you're. Yeah. Okay, so you're learning about CES letter from TikTok.

Kyle Brost [03:22:01] Yes. And so that's. That's. I think that's so cool.

John Dehlin [03:22:04] Which accounts. Which accounts? Do you remember which accounts were waking you up?

Kyle Brost [03:22:08] Some of them, I think. Yeah. Panda Girl. X1 Panda Girl.

John Dehlin [03:22:11] Shout out to X1 Panda Girl.

Kyle Brost [03:22:13] I really appreciate her stuff because at the time, she was just like a little.

John Dehlin [03:22:17] What's her name in real life. I'm gonna tag her.

Kyle Brost [03:22:19] Gosh, I'd have to look on. I don't.

John Dehlin [03:22:22] I know it. I. Keep going, Keep going. Extra on Panda Girl. Who else?

Kyle Brost [03:22:26] Unraveled faith, huh? Was another one. Alicia Lee. Geez. I'm trying to think of some of the other ones. There's some funny ones that I appreciated. Like Jack Mormon.

Neesha Brost [03:22:36] Yeah.

Kyle Brost [03:22:37] Was one that I really appreciated. Those are the ones that come to mind right away.

John Dehlin [03:22:42] Okay, that's fine.

Kyle Brost [03:22:44] So those are what some I had come across. I'm sure there are a lot of others. So I apologize for anybody that I'm leaving out. Those are ones that I kind of, like, navigated toward and appreciated their stories and the way they were approaching it. I had kind of talked to Nisha about, like, oh, I think I kind of want to do, like, some TikToks. I kind of want to share, like, some storyline. One thing that, as I had gone through it that I hadn't seen was a couple get on and, like, really just share their story. A lot of what I saw on TikTok was like, the doctrine stuff, right? Getting into details about polygamy or about the first visions or about race in the priesthood. And I just hadn't seen that many. I'm not saying they weren't there. I'm just saying I hadn't seen that many who just shared their story and that did it as a couple. And so I just approached Nisha. I was like, what would you think about sharing our story just as a couple? And we had no idea. I mean, we didn't know what we were doing. We literally just started the camera and just started blabbing for.

John Dehlin [03:23:49] Okay, so. So first of all, people are saying it's Jessica Tucker. Yes, I've talked to Jessica. She's great. So shout out to Jessica Tucker, who's excellent. Panda girl. She's an OG. She's a Mormon. Ex Mormon. TikTok OG. Okay, for those who have no idea what is TikTok? Really quickly and why is it interesting?

Kyle Brost [03:24:08] So TikTok's just a social media platform with short videos. So every video is less than 60 seconds. It's meant to be, like, really entertaining. It's very quick. One thing that's unique is you can't. You don't really swipe to, like, different profiles that much. You just have a for you page, and you just Kind of like scroll. The reason that matters is because you can come across all sorts of random stuff as you're scrolling TikTok. And I think part of the reason we chose TikTok is because there's a certain level of like, like we didn't think our family would be on it. We didn't think some of our friends, because it sometimes is a younger audience. So we just didn't think people that knew us personally would be on it and see it. And that was part of the original appeal.

John Dehlin [03:24:52] So you can be, you know, I, I, I'm on TikTok. It can be cooking, like how to cook sirloin steaks, or it can be, you know, a young woman or old guy dancing or family members dancing to certain songs or someone philosophizing or some news or then boom, all of a sudden, something about the CES letter and you're like, whoa. Or an evangelical or ex evangelical. And so, yeah, so, so, okay, so short little videos scrolling through. Yeah, that's super valuable. What, what else?

Kyle Brost [03:25:26] I mean, we just, we got there because we were just like, let's just tell our story. Maybe somebody, maybe somebody will hear.

Neesha Brost [03:25:33] Well, to go back a little bit, I think the driving force for me was we had started telling family members that we were going to be out. And then I had a dear friend, she didn't come to me for the story. She went to a different source for the story and for our story of leaving. And it just hurt my feelings because I thought, well, why don't you feel comfortable coming to me? And then number two, I don't know what that person said to you, and I don't know how they're relaying that story. And I feel that it's going to be undervaluing my experience. And I need you to know from me how the experience went. And so I felt a little bit of a push to be like, okay, if people are going to talk about it, then they're going to, like, know it because I said it and they can watch my video.

John Dehlin [03:26:23] So it was a way to own your story, kind of not let someone else own your story.

Neesha Brost [03:26:30] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:26:31] Okay. And were there any ex Mormon I know there's one other really awesome, at least one other really awesome ex Mormon couple in the Ogden area that, that does. And I'm going to be interviewing them soon as well. Were you guys the first ex Mormon couple that you knew of on Tik Tok?

Kyle Brost [03:26:51] We were the first we knew of.

John Dehlin [03:26:52] Okay, okay.

Neesha Brost [03:26:53] I didn't get on TikTok, so I didn't really ever. I didn't really know what it was.

John Dehlin [03:26:57] Okay.

Kyle Brost [03:26:58] So I wouldn't say that definitively. I would say we were the first that we knew.

John Dehlin [03:27:01] Yeah, that's all I'm saying. That you knew of. Yeah.

Kyle Brost [03:27:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:27:03] So you hadn't seen another couple. Okay. And so you just wanted to own your story and be authentic.

Kyle Brost [03:27:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:27:10] And were you in a mixed faith marriage when you first started TikTok?

Kyle Brost [03:27:13] No, we were both. We hadn't made it, like, super public and we hadn't, like. We still considered ourselves kind of culturally Mormon, but we again, just wanted to share some of the story. Also, just to be clear, we. And we still don't. We never attack the church. We share some of the stuff that was harmful and that we still think is harmful. We have never told anybody to leave. Yeah, we never told anybody to leave. We've never shared anything. We have shared two images that could be controversial, but everything else we've shared has been publicly available on the church's website. So I just want that context out there. We honestly started it and tried to be as respectful as we could, and we never thought that the church would take issue with the content that we've been creating.

John Dehlin [03:28:03] Okay. And so what have. If. If you haven't been, quote, anti Mormon, which is an offensive term to. To many people. What? Oh, there's a kitty cat joining us. That's awesome.

Kyle Brost [03:28:16] She's. She's quasi TikTok fan famous.

Neesha Brost [03:28:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:28:18] That's great. What's her name?

Kyle Brost [03:28:20] Mishi.

John Dehlin [03:28:21] Mishi. Okay, so. Hi, Mishi. Okay, so if you're. If you weren't trying to take down the church, if you weren't being anti Mormon. Again, you've already said this, but what were you trying to do? What were your goals with Tick Tock, other than owning your story? I think it's more than that. Right.

Neesha Brost [03:28:37] Honestly, one, owning our story. And then two, we knew we were not the only ones experiencing these things. Things we couldn't be.

John Dehlin [03:28:45] Yeah.

Neesha Brost [03:28:45] And there needed to be somebody that we could. That there needed to be somebody out there that people could relate to and feel like, okay, what I'm going through is all right. And to validate some of those experiences, to validate some of the anger associated with it, to value some of the depression that comes with it, the sadness, the hurt, all of it. And we just wanted to be a support for people all.

Kyle Brost [03:29:11] Yeah, we wanted one. Honestly, we sat down and we were like, if one person. And I know people say this all the time, but we did. We were like, if One person sees this and they feel heard and they feel validated that that's enough for us. And so we just shared our story

John Dehlin [03:29:27] so that, you know, that's kind of like the Mormon stories model, where stories heal, stories make people feel like they're not alone, like they're not crazy. It helps them learn tools and tips, helps give them motivation to have faith that things can work out. And that's what you guys wanted to do? Yeah.

Kyle Brost [03:29:42] Yeah.

Their Most Impactful TikTok Videos

John Dehlin [03:29:43] Okay. And so let's go ahead and take a few minutes to share some of your favorite or most popular TikTok videos. Is that okay?

Kyle Brost [03:29:54] Yeah, go for it.

John Dehlin [03:29:56] Okay. Okay. So tell us what this video is and then we'll play it.

Neesha Brost [03:30:01] We had done a series of. So typically, how we do our TikToks is we talk about a topic and it ends up being kind of like a series, like a six part series, because you just can't say all you want to in 60 seconds. Right. So we had done a Purity culture series and how it was kind of toxic for us and how it was harmful for our relationship. Something that we did do was create an intimacy vision where it just asked questions of what we wanted our intimacy to look like. And we gave it to somebody because somebody had asked us a question about intimacy. And we just showed them what it was. So this is the video explaining it.

John Dehlin [03:30:42] All right, so what I'm going to do is mute both of us and then unmute the window and see if people can hear it. And we'll play for them this first video. We're going to play four or five. Each one's a minute or less. So, audience, you know, be patient with this. We're going to be getting to your disciplinary council or your church discipline. And, you know, the purge we talked. The whole point of this episode was to get to the spring 2021 purge. I want to tell listeners we're going to get there. I just want to show a few of these TikToks to give you guys a sample of the good work they're doing and also to give you a sense for what's getting you excommunicated in 2021. I think that's important. All right, so I'm going to mute us now.

Neesha Brost [03:31:24] Thanks for asking that question. If you've been here for a while, you know that we too struggled with intimacy for a long time. We did see a marriage counselor early on. It did not help us with our intimacy. It did help us start to communicate a little bit better. So something that is important to know about Kyle is. He researches for his line of work and he often finds issues and problems and he builds frameworks for how to solve these issues and problems. So something that he did for us was build us an intimacy vision.

Kyle Brost [03:31:53] Yep. So I did a bunch of research on it and I just created. It's a very simple tool and, and the whole point of the tool is to help you talk about intimacy within your relationship. So you can pause the screen and kind of read it. Hopefully you can see all of that. We also have this as a PDF, so if you message us, we can send you this PDF.

Neesha Brost [03:32:13] We'd be happy to share because it's helped us.

Kyle Brost [03:32:15] It has. And it's really, it's just to get you talking and communicating because that's the biggest thing for us when it came to intimacy was to talk about it.

John Dehlin [03:32:23] Okay, so that's beautiful. So the first video is literally instructions on how to get better. What, emotional intimacy in your marriage.

Kyle Brost [03:32:33] Yeah. So. If we can.

John Dehlin [03:32:46] Got it. Okay. Well, that's. I mean, I mean, so far, not excommunication worthy. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. Maybe we'll find something. How does that sound?

Kyle Brost [03:32:58] That sounds good.

John Dehlin [03:32:59] Okay. What's this next video we're going to be showing people? Nisha and Kyle, what's this next video about?

Neesha Brost [03:33:06] Yeah. That is us taking down the family. A proclamation to the world. We felt like that with our new understanding and new eyes that we couldn't read that and teach those things to our children and believe that that was the way a family could look. So we took it down.

John Dehlin [03:33:25] All right. What a beautiful story for those who were able to see that about changing what it kind of means, changing what love means in a family. Is that, is that the right.

Kyle Brost [03:33:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:33:39] Interpretation of that. What are your guys reaction as you watch that video?

Neesha Brost [03:33:46] I still get a little bit emotional watching it because I. I feel more empowered as a family now. I feel that we truly can just accept our children and we can accept each other no matter who we are or who we want to be and just have that true unconditional love.

Kyle Brost [03:34:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:09] Kyle, how about you?

Kyle Brost [03:34:12] I think all of that, that it's a symbol, honestly of us finding our own way to live. To not living by somebody else's rules or guidelines, but to saying, you know what, we are capable and strong and loving and intelligent and we can find our own way to live and find and create the tools that we need for this point in our lives.

John Dehlin [03:34:38] Yeah. And it is so tricky because we all, again, we've already covered this point, but we all think the church is about families, but the proclamation on the family is. Is only. Is about setting a standard for family that a few people can reach, B, many people don't want to reach, and C, that isn't always healthy. And then D, spectacularly blows up in way too many instances, because who can live all. Who can. Who. Who can have everyone in their family live the covenant, quote, covenant path. Like, you're going to lose kids, your spouse is going to leave, someone's going to be gay or transgender, and your. Your whole covenant path family structure is going to blow up. And so that proclamation on the family is intended to be the standard, but it ends up being this huge setting people up for massive disappointment.

Kyle Brost [03:35:27] Yeah. Yeah. I think it's also an indicator to kids who are growing up in those homes who may be lgbtq. It's an indicator to them of how their families feel about them. So one thing we talked a lot about is we can't, even if we wanted to love and accept our children, say we have a child that comes out at 15 or 16 or 17 years old. Even if at that stage we wanted to fully love and accept them, there's no way they would believe us if we spent the previous 15 years telling them there was no place for that identity. And we literally have a document hanging on our wall that says that. And so for us, it was just that saying, no, we're going to start the love and acceptance today versus waiting for when it has to happen.

Neesha Brost [03:36:16] Exactly. And just to who are we to make this box of perfectionism for our kids and deny them the ability to just be themselves and figure that out for themselves? That's not for us to do.

John Dehlin [03:36:31] Yeah, Beautiful. Beautiful. That's so important. And that's one of the things you're preaching again. So your TikTok video is about love, unconditional love, self discovery. I'm waiting for, like, Joseph Smith was a pedophile or the churches so far, you know, patriarchal prick. Like, so far there's no super offensive stuff. Now maybe we're cherry picking, I don't know. But I just want to see what types of things are getting people excommunicated these days. So let's go. Let's go to this next video and you want to tell us what this one's about?

Neesha Brost [03:37:07] Up. This was like a pivotal moment in my leaving the church where I realized that for so many years, I never thought critically. I never had a voice. I never was Nisha. I was the Nisha the church wanted. And needed me to be, to thrive in their community. But I wasn't the true me, me. And so this is just a little snippet of me just. I had had a great day. I had been listening to this music artist named Ke$, and she was just singing her heart out, and she was saying bad words, and she was doing it with power. And I just. And just with. She didn't care that anybody was listening to her say these words. And I was like, I want to do that. I want to. Like, I can say that if I want to. Like, it's okay. It's not going to be a sin anymore. I could say whatever I wanted. And so I just. I went on this run, I listened to the song, and I came home to Kyle, and I was like, I want to say this bad word. And it was just this cool moment of me being like, I can do it because I want to. And I'm going to see how it makes me feel, because I am now into entitled to trying things and judging. Like, and just knowing me and knowing if I feel okay with it right now. Like, if I want to drink coffee now, I'm gonna try it. Not to be, like, rebellious, but just to know, like, hey, does Nisha like that? Nisha's been, like, boxed in for 33 years, and now she's, like, out. And it was just me expressing that to sharing this moment with my TikTok family.

John Dehlin [03:38:53] I love it. I love it. Okay, and. And should we give a. A content warning on this one?

Neesha Brost [03:39:00] We bleeped the word out, so I think it should be okay. But if.

John Dehlin [03:39:04] Oh, okay. I mean, the word, you're going to be dropping an F bomb here that it's bleeped out. Is that right?

Neesha Brost [03:39:09] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:39:10] Okay. All right, here it is. This is Nisha dropping an F bomb. Bleeped out, everybody.

Neesha Brost [03:39:17] So now I feel like this free agent of myself who can actually process my thoughts and say, hey, Nisha, what do you want to do? And something I've always wanted to do, which is really silly. Running is my therapy. And the other day I was running and I was listening to the Rainbow album by Kesha Keisha. I don't know how you say her name. There's a song in there called Woman, and she just yells, this is so silly. I want to say mother ever. I've never said it before. It feels good to say that and not feel guilty about it. Motherfucker.

John Dehlin [03:40:07] That is so fun. It reminds me of, I don't know, the King's English or whatever it was Called just like. Like kind of that liberating moment where you can swear that's inspiring. Isn't that weird that that's inspiring?

Neesha Brost [03:40:19] Yeah. And that I was, like, so emotional about it. I was like, oh, my goodness. This has been bottled up inside me for 33 years, and I'm just gonna open this can, and who knows what's coming out?

Kyle Brost [03:40:33] I can tell you what comes out. It comes out.

John Dehlin [03:40:38] I love it.

Neesha Brost [03:40:39] I.

John Dehlin [03:40:39] There's a. I want to stop and. And share a comment with you guys. And this isn't to shame the commenter. We're really grateful for our commenters, but Marsha says I can see how a video of taking down the proclamation would upset church leaders and members now. Marsha, thank you for sharing. That's a valid perspective. Absolutely. I agree with you 100%. Thank you for sharing. And I just want to, like, have us, like, step outside of our Mormon bubble for a second. Because, Marsha, the context you made of that comment was the context of saying that Nisha and Kyle were literally have been. Were literally pulled into some sort of church disciplinary action with the threat of excommunication. Okay. And so I just want to ask you. Yeah, yeah, the church might not like pulling down the proclamation of the family and doing that on social media, but, like, let's say it's the Catholic Church and it's the Apostles Creed or, you know, the. Some trinitarian thing or some script. You know what. Churches are going to excommunicate somebody for taking a picture off their wall. And, like, less than Mormonism are like, yeah, I can see why that might happen. You know, and that just illustrates how crazy it is that. That. That we still, in 2021, are like, oh, yeah, Natasha said a bad word. Natasha called, you know, people. LGBT people are ending their lives by suicide. Transgender people are set, you know, risking death. Marriages are being torn apart. Like, people's lives are, you know, being taken from them in the ways they didn't give consent. And Natasha's in trouble for getting angry at the leaders for not changing. So she has, like, one moment of, like, a thousand posts on Facebook. In one post, she says, patriarchal prick in response to people dying and families being torn apart. And that's why she's excommunicated. And people are going to go, oh, John, you're being reductionistic. She was being reductionistic for what? For saying that masturbation is healthy. Oh, really? Oh, for saying that the church's, you know, stance on pornography is harmful. Oh, really? That's true. For teaching that the church is harming families for teaching ethical, you know, and evidence based best practices for mental health, for advocating for same sex marriage. Well, Barb and Steve Young do that. How many Mormons march in the, you know, Mormons Building bridges, you know, law, you know, group every year at the pr. Like, what are we excommunicating people for? Like, none of it makes sense. And you guys are another example of the, the, of the, you know, spring 2021 purge. And so, yes, yes, Marcia, it is something that you can get excommunicated for potentially. But, but that seems outrageous to me. I'm sorry I ranted. What do you guys.

Kyle Brost [03:44:03] I, I would just. Yes, all of that. Yes. And just as evidence of that, that is one video that we got the most pushback on from some of our friends and family who happened to see it and reaching out to us. We had people unfriend us because of that video. We had people messaging us about that video. So it was the. My point is the comment is very valid because it was one of the videos that triggered some of our closest friends and deepest loved ones.

John Dehlin [03:44:35] Yeah. And it just goes to, you know, a lot of people are like, don't call the church a cult. You know, and it's true, true. It's not useful to call the Mormon church occult. It creates the backfire effect. It makes people angry, it makes people defensive. It actually makes people hold tighter to their beliefs. So I'm telling you all, don't call the church a cult. Don't tell your believing loved ones that you think the church is a cult. It is harmful. It is counterproductive. And the fact that you can't criticize a church leader publicly these days. You can't support legal same sex marriage, marriage and, and, and openly speak about it as a mental health professional. You can't criticize the church's stances on pornography and masturbation, even when you know they're leading to death. And that you can't take a photo down from your wall that these types of things are, are leading or that you have a TikTok channel and you speak publicly about it and these types of things are getting people excommunicated. I, does anybody share the bewilderment and, or outrage? It is insane. It is cult like, as much as it's not useful to use that term.

Kyle Brost [03:45:50] Yeah, I mean, honestly, yes, we, we have a couple videos that are more controversial than that. What I would say is, and we'll be clear about this, we can go into more detail about the meetings that we had. But we share two pictures. Maybe I can't remember the number, but we share a handful of pictures of the garments and the temple clothing. To be clear, we pulled those pictures directly off of the LDS Church's website.

John Dehlin [03:46:19] That's amazing.

Kyle Brost [03:46:20] Publicly available. We did not go searching. You can obviously find any picture you want of them. We specifically went to the church's website and got the pictures that they share publicly. And we didn't share anything about the garment that you couldn't find on the church's website. So even when. And we were answering questions, people obviously want to know about those things. So we were answering questions and we were very intentional about sharing pictures that were publicly available on the church's website and not saying things that were, you know, secret or sacred.

John Dehlin [03:46:52] Right.

Neesha Brost [03:46:52] And part of that was because if our family had found this account, we wanted them to know that we were weren't trying to sabotage anything and that we do understand that they do still find those things sacred and we weren't trying to bash it or take anything away from their experience. We were just answering a question and providing the same material that the church would have provided.

Kyle Brost [03:47:19] Right. And the reason we bring that up, that was one of the screenshots that they shared with that the leaders.

Neesha Brost [03:47:24] Well, I don't think you got into that. So we.

Kyle Brost [03:47:26] Well, we can.

John Dehlin [03:47:27] Okay, yeah, and we'll get into that. Let me just take. There's two quick comments questions that I want to share because they're important. So Ali missed the beginning. And she writes, you said 2021, spring purge. What do you mean, Ali? What I mean is I'm aware of what I'm aware of. Well, Natasha Heifer Parker was just excommunicated. I've been made aware of five same sex couples, you know, LGBT individuals who are legally married, who have been attending churches in their wards faithfully for the past year or two or several years. Five, I've been told, have been called into disciplinary councils to have their church membership tried for being same sex married. That's right. Now in April of 2021. And then now Kyle and Neisha in Kansas are also. So we're also called in to be tried for disciplinary council or to have their membership tried for excommunication. And I'm hearing on Facebook and on Instagram and on email, many, many people are reaching out to me saying that because of what they said on Facebook, because of what they said on Twitter, Instagram, whatever, because of things that they say, they're being called in. So my understanding is, is that somehow somewhere a memo has gone up out to Mormon bishops and branch presidents and stake presidents saying it's open, open hunting season on anyone who speaks out publicly in disagreement with the Brethren or the church and, or same sex marriage. It's hunting season. And so that's, that's what I meant. Ali. And then, and then David, David McKay says something super interesting as well. David McKay says, Joe, run. It's about doing a video about it, not about taking the proclamation down. And then I'm going to add, he says, and I hope I'm not getting him in trouble. I guess we'll see. David. But he says, we took the proclamation down years ago in our household and we are still members. And so basically what, what I, oh, and then, David, he's got more for us. Be careful the way you rant because you tend to exaggerate and it turns believing members off and stop watching your videos. Okay, that's true, David. I don't want to turn believing members off, David. I think we've had these exchanges before, but I also want to be authentic and real, David. So I'll try and I'll try and tone down my ranting. I have not had coffee today, so it's, I can't blame it on the coffee. I think this is just me. But David, what, what do you call an organization that says you can have your thoughts on and your feelings, you can't just speak openly about it. Like, what is that called? You can, you can privately believe that same sex marriage is healthy, but you can't say it publicly. You can privately say things are hurting me, but you can't say, you can probably, you can privately look at the church's garments, but then you can't share photos of those garments from the church's website. You can, you can know about Joseph smith's marrying a 14 year old or the problems of the Book of Abraham, but you can't talk about it. The, the, I have to call out the problem with that approach, David. And I don't, I'm not pretending, David, that you're defending it, but this is what my stake president said to me. He's like, hey, I, I don't, I don't care what you believe privately. I don't even care if you believe in God. God. Just shut down Mormon Stories podcast and don't ever speak publicly again. Don't ever advocate for female ordination. Don't ever advocate for same sex marriage. Shut your podcast down and don't ever say anything again that criticizes the church. And I'M like, what. What is the criteria of a cult? Bite B I T E. Control your behavior. Control the information that people receive. Receive. Control people's thoughts and manipulate you with emotions like fear. How is that not cult like for a church to say, whatever your beliefs are, keep them private. The minute that you speak publicly, we're going to excommunicate you. Help me with that. Kyle and Nisha, help me with that.

Kyle Brost [03:51:48] I'm struggling, but I don't think we're going to be much help because I.

Neesha Brost [03:51:52] We're struggling too, because we felt like we. We tried our best to keep it fairly respectful. I don't. I still talk to Kyle. I don't feel like we are. There are accounts out there that are way bigger than us. And so for us to get noticed and for our voices to be silenced seems really silly to me. And I. It's frustrating that they even thought that they had to silence us because that, that's what is so sad is that they felt like for some reason that by us talking out, they could have consequences, which seems so silly. If you're so sure that your church is the right and true church, then you should not be scared of a little TikTok family in Kansas.

John Dehlin [03:52:39] Yeah. So, David, I want to always invite you to help me tone down because I always want to Mormon Stories to be a podcast that believers are comfortable watching. And I hope believers are as outraged as I am that the church is excommunicating people for simply being truthful and authentic about serious things like the destruction of families, death by suicide, misleading history, problematic practices around mental health. I hope you're as outraged as I am, even if I'm trying to calm down as I. As I say that.

Kyle Brost [03:53:19] Well, in this a little context, we have members comment and reach out to us saying, thank you for your videos. Active believing members who say, I have no intention of leaving, but I value your tick tock and I appreciate this so much. Nisha's miscarriage1 was a great example where we had. I don't. A lot of women reach out and say, I'm an active believing member. And I felt all of this same stuff. Thank you so much. So apparently some. I mean, you can never figure out where the line is between who you're going to offend and who you're not. But I just wanted to be clear that there are some active believing members who follow us and engage with us and thank us for our content. So it's not so. It's not so provocative and controversial that every member will would objectively say that it's bad. It is. We're toeing a line that is appropriate for even some members to say I value and appreciate this content.

John Dehlin [03:54:19] Yeah. And you don't hear the Catholic Church excommunicating people for disagreeing with the Pope or saying I use birth control publicly or even supporting abortion rights even though those things are against the Catholic Church. Like respectable modern religious institutions don't excommunicate people for just exercising the right of free speech.

Neesha Brost [03:54:46] Right.

John Dehlin [03:54:48] So, okay, so let us move to the disciplinary council. So how is it that you guys go from being non anti Mormon, respectful, loving, healing, you know, marriage saving, mental health, promoting tiktokers? How do you end up at the bishop's office or the stake president's office and just tell us that whole story?

Church Authorities Contact Them About TikTok

Neesha Brost [03:55:17] I got an email on a Tuesday that the bishop would like to meet with us. It's totally out of the blue and that's basically all it said. And so we sent him an email back saying, hey, it was kind of vague but like we're happy to meet with you but depends on what you want to talk about. Right.

Kyle Brost [03:55:35] So this is. I can just quickly read the reply. So he sent the vague email as you meet with us. We asked what it was in regards to and this was the reply. And we'll obviously keep any confidential stuff out, but it just says thank you for the reply. I guess I was a bit vague there, wasn't I? I wish this was purely a social visit, but I am on assignment from the Stake Presidency to clarify where you are at with the church in light of the feelings you have expressed in your TikTok videos. I am also worried about what may have been done by any members of the church that may have led to any of your frustrations with the church. I would prefer to have this conversation face to face if you're willing. Developing, maintaining a good relationship with you, no matter the outcome, is important to me. This is meant to be in the spirit of love, reconciliation and cooperation, not any kind of condemnation or preaching. My intent is not to debate or challenge your views, but more to understand better where this leaves your relationship with the church. Right.

John Dehlin [03:56:32] And so this is kind of how it starts. It's the same type of stuff that Natasha is experiencing where a bishop or stake president sends you a text, sends you an email saying we need to meet now. I just want to highlight what I see as kind of problematic in this is number one, that a church is monitoring people's social media. Why in the crap is a Christian Church monitoring people's social media. Number two, where is this coming from? Is there, you know, we know that there's the Strengthening the Church Members Committee, SCMC in Salt Lake City that literally keeps files on the church members. There are Mormon apologists and even voluntary missionaries. As I understand it, it's their job to like, like track and follow church members, copy and paste things they post on social media, save and print out statements that they make, save them into a file. And just like the kgb, just like you know, the FBI or the CIA, you know, the church is spying on people, monitoring them and keeping folders on them, them. And so one of the questions that is always asked is, is this coming from Salt Lakes Church headquarters? Is this really from your stake? Is this really from your bishop? Is this ward members ratting on you and then is that disturbing? Are members of your ward telling on you and then turning you in to your bishop and stake president? But then your stake president's involved and so it seems to be coming from higher than your. So like, I'm sorry again, I'm just like these things feel, I don't want to say the C word again, but like control of behavior, spying on people. I just, I don't know what the Mormon Church is doing in 21, but 2021. Speak to all of this and take as much time as you want.

Kyle Brost [03:58:31] Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot there. We don't know exactly where it came from. We found out, out that there was a regional representative involved at the same time. We also, he, the bishop also told us that, well, so maybe we can just kind of go into the story because of meeting with the bishop.

John Dehlin [03:58:50] Yeah, please.

Kyle Brost [03:58:51] He got, we got this email, he mentioned our tick tocks. We talked about it and said, well, let's go ahead and meet with the bishop and we'll have the discussion. We knew going into it, I mean he specifically says in it that it has to do with TikTok and he specifically says with regard to the status of your church membership. So we knew exactly where it was headed. So we went ahead and we drafted resignation letters. We didn't know if we would give them to him or not. We just wanted them to be prepared because we thought there may be an option to like stop doing TikTok or something. We didn't know what all of the options were going to be when we met with him. So we drafted the letters, we agreed to meet with him. We printed out out like hundreds of messages that we've received from people. They're probably still laying around here somewhere. Of people thanking us, telling us how much it helped them. Of active, believing members telling us how much it helped them. Of people struggling, saying, my husband's out, I don't know what to do. Or I'm out. I don't know how to talk to my spouse. Like, we printed out all of these mess. Literally, there's more than we could print. Of people messaging us asking for support. We also printed out our responses to show that we have never once, once told a single person that they should or should not leave the church. We have simply validated their experiences and let them know that whatever choice they make is okay. That they don't have to feel like there's only one right choice. And so we printed all of that out because we wanted to be able to show, one, we keep doing this because it's helping people. And two, we've never once told anybody to leave the church. So we had all of that ready. The bishop came, he asked for another person to participate. We said, no, thank you, and he came. We invited him really quick.

John Dehlin [04:00:43] I just have a question. So you guys don't use your real first and last names on TikTok, right?

Kyle Brost [04:00:49] We do. Say Kyle and Nisha. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:00:51] Do you use your last names?

Kyle Brost [04:00:52] Not. No, not usually.

John Dehlin [04:00:53] Okay. And do you know whether you were reported on by fellow ward members or from the stake or from the strengthening the church membership committee in Salt Lake? Do you know where the complaints came from?

Kyle Brost [04:01:06] We don't know what started it. We know complaints came in at all of those levels. So we know that there were local church ward members. We actually shared some of their names with us. So we know local ward members who shared screenshots. We know that there were people from Utah and Arizona who also sent in

Neesha Brost [04:01:24] screenshots, who we had taught them in seminary.

Kyle Brost [04:01:27] Yeah, we had been their seminary teachers and they recognized. So we know that they were getting sent in from a lot of places, so ward and stake. And we also know that the regional representative was involved because the bishop specifically told us that. But we don't know where it started. We don't know if it started with local people sending them it in or if it started with a regional person saying, we don't know the timeline or how that all played out. Side note, the very day that we got asked to meet, we had somebody from our local congregation message us asking for help. And we had somebody from the stake message us asking for help. So we. We just want to point that out that again, there are people finding help in this because they have nowhere else to turn.

Neesha Brost [04:02:14] Right?

John Dehlin [04:02:16] Yeah. And this is identical to what I was going through because when I had started Mormon Stories podcast and I was helping people, I got called in, investigated three different times. And every time I had to get all my listeners to send a bunch of letters into the stake president to say, we're helping people. Natasha had these huge tomes of letters. You know, I watched her, you know, pray over them and sob over them because she's helped so many people. And it's weird because the church doesn't care if you're saving lives, if you're saving families, if you're, you're alleviating depression, if you're helping sexual dysfunction, if you're keeping marriages together, none of that matters. It's, it's. Did you publicly advocate for same sex marriage? Did you publicly say, say, you know, criticize the brethren in some way and that's, you know, that's what's going to get you in trouble. Okay, so. And you may have to refresh. So, so the bishop says we want to meet with you. And so you're going in, in feeling kind of defensive, like you need to be prepared to defend yourself. Is that right?

Kyle Brost [04:03:21] Yeah. I mean, based on the email saying, he specifically says with regard to the status of your church membership and about your TikTok. So when you say with regard to the status of your church membership, it kind of alludes to the idea that your membership's at risk. And so yes, we went in prepared to be able to defend ourselves.

John Dehlin [04:03:41] And how does it feel to, to, number one, have a bishop reaching out to you when right now you're not attending, number two, tell you he wants to meet with you and three, to find out you're in trouble and that your membership's at stake. How does that. I'm just curious what that feels like. And any answer is good. If it's like hilarious or if it's creepy or sad or scary.

Neesha Brost [04:04:01] Honestly, it was sad. I didn't feel like we had done anything wrong. And I think that's, I was confused because honestly, like I said before, we're a little tick tock family and I don't feel like I, we did anything but share our story. And so why is that wrong?

Kyle Brost [04:04:22] Yeah, I had a little different reaction. Honestly, I think it was a mix of like somewhat humorous, also somewhat angering. Just the idea that some other human beings thinks that they have any sort of, of authority to even inject themselves into like that dynamic of our lives was. Yeah. I mean, both comical. Because I don't mean to put this person on the bus, because I actually think that the bishop is a really good man. But the idea that literally, because somebody else told him, you have stewardship, you have authority, that he actually thinks God gave him authority is somewhat comical at this stage of my progression or regression, however you look at my life, but also at the same time, infuriating that that was. That that even existed and it was still a part of my life.

John Dehlin [04:05:16] Yeah. Because, I mean, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, or, you know, Jews. Like, who's excommunicating people for TikTok, you know, like, only as far as I. As far as we know, the Mormons. Okay, so a combination of. Of afraid, confused, sad, angry, amused, all that stuff. Right?

Kyle Brost [04:05:39] Yeah.

The Bishop's Meeting and Membership Ultimatum

John Dehlin [04:05:40] Okay, so you go into the meet with the bishop and tell us more.

Kyle Brost [04:05:46] So he gave us the option to our house. Yep.

John Dehlin [04:05:49] Okay. I'm. To your house. Okay. How does he start the meeting?

Kyle Brost [04:05:53] He made a comment about the. We still have a picture of the Nauvoo Temple hanging on our wall. So the very first comment he made was basically, why. Why do you still have a picture of the temple hanging?

John Dehlin [04:06:04] Because you're evil. Why would you have that?

Kyle Brost [04:06:06] Right. Yeah. I mean, so we addressed that. We just said, like, the church, you know, doesn't own our experience. That was our experience. Like, that still is where we came together. That. Not just that temple, but that whole city. It's where we met. It's where we. And so we just explained, like, it wouldn't matter what we believe. That is still part of our experience, and nobody owns that experience but us. So we explained that. That.

Neesha Brost [04:06:30] And also he asked just some questions about us because we. He's actually a new bishop. We don't even really know him, so he doesn't know us. He did talk to a couple. Another family in the ward who's in his. Who's in his bishopric presidency, who did vouch for us, which was so sweet of them to do, and tell them, like, hey, they're actually a really good family, so I don't know what you're gonna get out of this conversation. So we appreciate that, but. So the first couple minutes was just small chat because obviously we're like, this is kind of awkward. And then he asked.

John Dehlin [04:07:05] So you had never. He had never said, hey, you guys are having struggles with your faith. You don't believe. Let's. Let's start meeting regularly. Let's talk about it. Let's. Let me coach you. Let me get you some Books or resources. Let me, let me, let me hook you up with some apologists in the church, like, let me counsel. Let me become your friend. Let's spend weeks and months, you know, administering to you in a pastoral way. He didn't offer any of that.

Neesha Brost [04:07:34] No, no.

Kyle Brost [04:07:35] It got pretty, it pretty quickly went to. You basically have two options. You can either choose to resign your membership or you can face disciplinary. Did he say why he.

John Dehlin [04:07:48] How did he say why? How did he break that?

Kyle Brost [04:07:50] He explained. That's when he, he explained that the Tik Tok screenshots had been sent to the Snake presidency. That's when.

John Dehlin [04:07:57] And he did say which ones.

Kyle Brost [04:07:59] He didn't say which ones. He mentioned like temple clothing and stuff like that as some of the screenshots, but we didn't like, look at the screenshots and we didn't talk in detail about which ones. He just alluded to those being a part of it. And that's when we clarified, just to be clear too, that's when we clarified one. We asked, asked, have you watched any of them? And he said, no, I've not watched any of them. And then he said, I believe that the stake president has. And then I asked, well, do. Did you know that all of those shots. We have a few shots when we told our temple, our marriage story, we have a few shots from inside the temple. So I asked him, did you know that all of the shots of the temple clothing, of the undergarments of the temple are all directly from the church's website, website, publicly available? And he said no.

John Dehlin [04:08:51] And you know, there is a thing on TikTok these days where some of the more prominent tick tockers are dressing in full temple garb with, you know, with the veil and with the green apron and the robes and they're dancing around or doing, you know, cartwheels or silly things and, and then sometimes even showing the signs in the token, you know, that, you know, new name Noah started that a long time ago, like exposing the Mormon temple ceremony and the Mormon temple rituals, which is offensive to Mormons and really important because there's no informed consent to that ceremony in terms of knowing what you're doing or what it's like so that people can actually decide beforehand if they even want to be a part of that thing and, or want to make those covenants. You should kind of know that before you get there with the pressure of everyone sitting around you. But anyway, like, obviously for decades now, people have been trying to provide some informed consent. But anyway, some of these TikTok videos can be pretty, from Mormon standards, super sacrilegious, where you're doing the signs and the tokens and you're mocking the temple. So. So how would you describe the videos where you did have the temple closed just so we can get a sense for that?

Kyle Brost [04:10:10] Well, so, first off, we were not wearing the temple. We were literally just showing the pictures. Again, we took pictures directly from the website, and we just showed that there's a filter you can use where when you show your hand, it'll pop up the image. So we literally just showed the images directly from. Publicly available from the church's website. Those are the only images we show, the only image that was not publicly available. Again, we were answering questions. This was not just us, like, saying, hey, let us share all this stuff about temple garments with you. These were responses to questions. The only image we showed that was not publicly available was somebody had asked, how much do the garments cost? So I had logged in, and I took a screenshot. You can't see any of the markings. All you see is our T shirts and underwear, and I just showed the pricing. But everything else is, like, publicly available. And we. We never put them on, like, and got in front of the camera. We weren't trying to be provocative. We never said anything. We didn't, like, poke fun at them. We didn't.

Neesha Brost [04:11:13] You know, I mean, we call them Mormon magic underwear. Yeah.

Kyle Brost [04:11:16] I mean, every now and then, like, we just, like, well, but we would say those kind of stuff as, like, sometimes. And so, again, we. We were being open about it, transparent. We were dealing with it our own way, but we were not being provocative. We didn't share secrets. We didn't share stuff that wasn't publicly available. And when we called it Mormon magic underwear, we were responding to people's comments.

Neesha Brost [04:11:40] Right.

John Dehlin [04:11:41] Okay. All right. So what are the other pieces of evidence or, you know, concerns that he expressed from the Stake Presidency?

Kyle Brost [04:11:51] Those were the big ones. Some stuff about. We have a series where it said somebody had asked. Asked us, what were the things that caused you to leave? So we have a series that is, like, what we've kind of talked about is, Right. LGBTQ stance, race in the priesthood, first vision accounts. Like, we have a series where, again, we're not lying. We're not. We're not trying to, like, we're not even saying it in a way that is harmful. We're just saying we came across this information and it was hard for us to deal with. But those and the temple garments were the. The big ones that they Called out.

John Dehlin [04:12:31] Okay, so what's it like to have him kind of listing off evidence as if you're on trial? And he's basically listing this creative work that you do out of an act of love with the desire to genuinely help people, and he's in your home listing these items off as offenses that. That puts you at risk for prosecution. How did that feel?

Kyle Brost [04:12:58] I don't.

Neesha Brost [04:12:59] You can honestly. It was such a mix of emotions. Number one, he hadn't watched them. So I felt like, who are you to come in here and tell me what to do when you don't even know what I'm doing? Number two, I just got a little bit frustrated that he still thinks that he holds any power between me and God. Like, he still feels like he needs to interject himself. And I was also just a little bit. I was just a little bit sad because I just wish he could see. I wish so much that he could see from the other side of how. How this could help somebody, how we're not. We're not tearing anything down. So it felt belittling almost for him to come in here with kind of no knowledge and give us a slap on the hand.

Kyle Brost [04:14:05] Yeah, it was also. It was kind of a contradictory conversation because he kept saying, like, I know that you guys are really good people. I can, like, feel your goodness. I feel like you're good intentions. So he would say that kind of stuff, but then on the flip side, still be like, but you're kind of either going to resign or you're going to face a disciplinary. Council. Membership council. So it was this, like, weird conflict of emotions where on one hand, we would sometimes feel like we were on the same page, like, we could connect with him and we could say, like. I mean, at one point he admitted he's like, I meet with an LGBTQ woman and I have no tools for her. And I pleaded with him. I was like, if you don't have any tools for this person, like, drop your pride and go find some tools. Like, get her some tools that she can. I literally. These are the words that I'm telling him, like, give her some tools. If nothing else, like, refer to us so we can help her find tools. So there were moments where it was like, we were almost able to have an intellectually and spiritually honest conversation, but it was always this, like, membership council that it kind of went back to that held. Held us up from having that open, honest conversation. Almost honestly felt like there were moments where he was like. Like, yeah, actually, maybe I should help her in A different way, but he just couldn't get himself there to trust us enough to do that.

Neesha Brost [04:15:37] And I mean, we talked about so many issues. We talked about, you know, he's like. I think he mentioned at one point if we could still attend. And I was like, we can't, because we cannot share these topics with people at church. Church is not a safe space for anybody to raise these concerns and these questions. And he, you know, he acknowledged that. And he's like, you know, I'm trying my hardest here in Kansas to change some of those things. And I can appreciate for him, like, trying that, but he's also just so unaware. I think that's what was so infuriating when we would talk about certain topics. He was so unaware of any of the harm that it can cause. And I just. I wish that he could be more educated if he's supposed to be responsible for this little flock of people here in Kansas. Give him the right education and the right tools and don't think that God is going to talk to him all the time, because that's not how it's going to work.

Kyle Brost [04:16:38] Right.

John Dehlin [04:16:39] And, you know, it was so serendipitous for there to be a global pandemic with the virus because this parallels the. The truth virus within the Mormon Church. And that is. Well, it's the truth and social justice virus, which is that, you know, learning factual Mormon church history leads people to leave the church. Developing empathy for LGBT people, people of color, women, women's issues, transgender people, etc. Leads people out of the church. Church. And so the church is in this bind because it can't train its bishops to be sympathetic to historical issues or LGBT issues or women's issues or racial issues, because it will then start them down the same road that, Nisha, you went down when you were trying to be empathetic with your husband Kyle. And so the church is in this bind where it's putting all these men on the front lines and they are our men. Although I'm sure women sometimes, sometimes have. Have these interactions too, where the church doesn't train them. They don't even know what the issues are. That's partly why they shrunk the disciplinary councils, by the way. They used to have just not only stake presidency, but all the. The 12 members of the High Council. They changed those rules to make it so it could just be the stake president, maybe one counselor, because they didn't want the truth and the social justice virus to spread to all the top stake leadership in the stake. When Sam Young Or Bill Real or me or Natasha do their diatribes during the disciplinary council, or Leah and Cody Young. And so like, bless the brethren. They're trying so hard to manage this, but they have to do it where Peter's not telling Paul, the left hand isn't telling the right hand what's going on because heaven forbid we spread the truth virus, Right?

Neesha Brost [04:18:34] I know. And it's so difficult because like you said, I feel sad for the bishop. He's like this little pawn in this whole scheme of things. And it's so surprising to me how easy it was for him. Like, if you are a believing member and you tell me that I need to resign or I'm going to have this disciplinary council and you know it's going to lead to excommunication, why is it so easy for you to say that? Like, my salvation is void? Like, why is there no love in that? Why is it so easy for him to just rip that band aid off of me? Because even though I know for myself that the church isn't true, for him to come into my house and then just tell me, you know, all of the things that you've done in this church are no longer valid is so hurtful. And I, I struggle with that because I know I. Part of me doesn't care. But that's also been my identity for the last 33 years. And for you to tell me to come into my home and tell me now that my temple marriage isn't worth anything, that my baptism wasn't worth anything, that all of the hours I gave, all of the money and tithing, all of the things I taught my kids means nothing, all of the women that I help serve means just nothing, is where is God? Where is Jesus in that whole scenario?

Kyle Brost [04:20:05] Well, and to do it, if they honestly believe that this is eternal exaltation on the line, to do it in a 45 or 60 minute conversation is absurd. Right? And the amount of invalidating the problem is people ask us, well, if you already felt like you're out, why didn't you resign? Do you have any idea? Our entire community is Mormon. All of our friends are Mormon. Do you know how instantly invalidated. Every experience, every thought, every idea we have is the moment we resign, or even maybe more dramatically, or excommunicated. So you wonder, well, if you felt like you were already out, why didn't you resign? Because the moment we do that, every association that we have with our friends and our families, everything we put into for the last 30 plus years is completely invalidated. Any idea we have about how to raise our children, how to be good friends, how to be good people is invalidated because they took a piece of paper and wiped it clean with all of our. Our religious achievements on it.

John Dehlin [04:21:18] So. So, Nisha, he wasn't literally telling you that your family doesn't mean anything anymore, right? Like, what did you. What do you mean? What do you mean by that?

Neesha Brost [04:21:29] No, I'm not gonna put words in his mouth. He just said that the ordinances and covenants that you have done are no longer in good standing. What did he say? Something valid.

Kyle Brost [04:21:38] They'd be void.

Neesha Brost [04:21:39] They'd be vulnerable away. So. But that's the interpretation, is it not? That.

John Dehlin [04:21:43] Yeah.

Neesha Brost [04:21:44] Okay, you just told me that my ordinance and covenants that I just did are no longer valid.

Kyle Brost [04:21:50] Well, so just a quick point about that. Not only did he tell us that in order for us to resign, we had to state that. So we had to acknowledge before them on a piece of paper that we recognized that all of those ordinances were void and invalid in order for our resignation to be official.

Neesha Brost [04:22:13] And I feel like they just. I feel sad because they just don't know. They just don't know all of the emotions that are tied into a faith journey like this, a faith transition. Because like we said before, all of our experiences were not bad in the church. There were some good experiences. So we're still wrestling with. Coping with. How do I maintain these good experiences but also acknowledge the bad and how do I heal? How do I heal from all of that? And then I just feel like you should allow that person some time to resign when they're ready or. I mean, it just. It takes so much emotion and control and thought to go into those steps. Steps. But it wasn't even on our own timetable. It was just demanded of us.

Kyle Brost [04:23:05] Right?

John Dehlin [04:23:08] Yeah, it's a. It's kind. You know what? The Washington Post journalist that did the article on Natasha Helfer reached out to me and tried to ask me, you know, is. Is excommunication a bad thing? And it's actually really hard to explain because, number one, you know, you guys don't believe anymore. Number two, you're not attending church. Number three, you know. You know, you don't. You don't believe it, right? Were those three or two anyway. But also, to a journalist, they're like, this is all dumb. Like, go to church if you want. Don't go to church if you want. And if the church excommunicates you, who cares? It's all. I mean, to A non Mormon journalist. They're thinking it's just a crazy church anyway, and then it's all make believe, so why do you even care? And it's just really hard to communicate to someone who hasn't been through it what it feels, how violent it feels to be threatened with excommunication or excommunicated. And I, you know, I just ask you guys to say this again, Devil's advocate. You don't believe anymore. You're not going. You don't think the ordinances matter, so why do you? Why do you? Are you just like, whatever, do whatever, you know? I don't even care. I guess you've already answered it. It's because of what socially excommunication means. They're branding you as an apostate. Now, your siblings may not want you to, you know, be aunt and uncle to their children. Your parents are now disappointed in you. You're breaking mom and dad's heart that now you've broken. You've chosen to break, break the, you know, the no empty chairs kind of intact family in the celestial kingdom. Now you guys have ruined that. Now they think that they're bad parents and that they failed. And then it just feels violent. You've given so much to the church all these years and, and even if you're not wanting to attend right now, who knows, maybe you will someday. Maybe you change your mind. Maybe you'll have a change of heart. And what they want to do is just excommunicate you, talking to you for 25 minutes, not knowing you, and then brand you as dangerous and evil to all your friends and family and in their minds, send you to Mormon hell.

Kyle Brost [04:25:32] Yeah, I mean, it is a literal branding. I mean, if we, for example, if we were to ever return, there's a good chance that our record would be annotated because we did harm to the Church in their words. And it's so it's this invalidating of our entire experience, invalidating of anything future. So it's an immediate discredit to any believing Mormon once we have resigned or been excommunicated. I think maybe even on a higher macro level, part of the problem is it normalizes. It normalizes information control by the church. So when the church does this, what they signal to members is the exact same thing. If the church can kick someone out, out for thinking differently, for sharing their story, then as a believing member, I, I too should be able to do that. I can kick someone out, I can discredit someone, I can invalidate someone. And so for me, it's this. It's the normalization that it creates of thought, control of information, control of the church literally being the authority over all of these things. And in.

Neesha Brost [04:26:39] It's.

Kyle Brost [04:26:39] It's hurtful and it's harmful.

John Dehlin [04:26:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And no one's, no one will get it unless you've been through it. You just won't. No non Mormon, I mean, maybe a Scientologist or Jehovah's Witness or orthodox Hasidic Jew, but other than that, there aren't many religions where you're going to ever understand this unless you go through it.

Kyle Brost [04:27:02] No. We did have somebody from Amway reach out and say that leaving Amway was pretty similar.

John Dehlin [04:27:08] Yeah. Okay, so you are. You are. So he basically, in that 45 minutes or whatever, does he delivers an ultimatum?

Kyle Brost [04:27:20] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:27:20] And what's the ultimatum?

Kyle Brost [04:27:23] Resign or face a membership council.

John Dehlin [04:27:26] And then what did you say in that moment?

Kyle Brost [04:27:30] I met. We were pretty. I mean, we had decided, we had made the decision beforehand that if the option was resign or membership council, that we would resign. The biggest reason being that our children have dealt with this whole process pretty well. But we didn't want the example we didn't want our kids to see was us giving our voice, giving authority to a church to carry out those actions. I mean, a literal hearing or a council where they're going to strip somebody of what they believe is eternal exaltation. And so we decided with our children in mind that we did not want them to see that because we didn't think we could explain to them why we would do that, why we would give all of that, why we would give our own voices and our power to this organization so that the only reason we chose to resign over going through the membership council was for our children, so they didn't have to see that or experience that.

John Dehlin [04:28:43] Otherwise. Would you have been considered going to your disciplinary council?

Kyle Brost [04:28:48] Yeah, I mean, I joked with Nisha that we should rent a limo and a red carpet and get some paparazzi, make a date out of it. And I mean, honestly, make her go home. I joke about that, but in some way that's kind of. If I were to do it, that's kind of how I wanted to do it.

Neesha Brost [04:29:03] Just to make a mock out of it?

Kyle Brost [04:29:05] Well, no, just like as a symbol of. This isn't your thing. Right. This is my life, my experience. And it's not that it would have been, honestly, in some ways it would have been a way to cope with it. It's not that just by being somewhat Silly about it that, that we just want to mock and that we don't care. But it would have been a way to, simply put, you know, I don't know, a star on top of the tree and say, you know what, when we finally went out, we did it in a way that was fun and authentic to us versus the alternative. Because if you're facing a membership council, it explicitly says membership councils are for those who are likely to have their records removed. And so. So I know people will probably think that I was just being silly, but in some ways I wanted to do that just as a symbol for so many other things.

John Dehlin [04:29:56] Yeah. And as someone who's been through an excommunication myself, it has been very hard on their children. It affects their relationships with their cousins, with their aunts and uncles, with their grandparents and just all their friends and their social. They're looked down upon, their pity. And it ruins so many relationships. Like my kids are close to almost none of their cousins because, you know, because of the rift that's been torn between us. And I have to forget sometimes. I was in my. In my interview with Leah Remini, I was trying to describe how. How Mormonism isn't as bad as Scientology. And I'm like, yeah, they don't put you in casual and they don't torture you. You know, all they do is make it so you're a disappointment for your parents for the rest of your life. And Leah was like, that's horrible. And I was like, I guess that is kind of horrible. You know what I mean? But. But we're not as bad as Scientology, so it must not be that bad. Right.

Kyle Brost [04:30:57] But it was. I mean, honestly, we. We had to call our family and let them know. Like we had already kind of let them know that we were moving away from the church. Church, but we had to call and let them know we resigned. And here's the reason why. And so there's always that label that I think is probably going to be associated with us of apostate. And I just think it's such a. It's such a harmful label because alludes to some sort of mental or emotional weakness, like you're an apostate because you weren't mentally or emotionally strong enough off versus the reality of it, which was it took. Took every piece of mental and emotional power we had to go through this process. And so just that label and all of it, all the implications, even resigning created, was a burden.

John Dehlin [04:31:58] Yeah, yeah, it's. It really is. And the church doesn't allow you this sort of dignity of like, like keeping a confidential and private. You, you have to tell your parents and grandparents and siblings because they're tithing settlement statements at the end of the year. Your name won't appear there. It's not a confidential matter. Your family, you know, your bishops may tell your family members. You know, the word gets around. The Mormon world is super small stuff.

Kyle Brost [04:32:27] Like my parents pay for our enzyme. That's something they've done for all of their kids for, for, you know, 30 years. And so they're gonna get it, you know, if we didn't tell them it's something as simple as that, they're gonna get a notice one day that's like, we can't mail this enzyme to these people because they're not, they don't have an address, they don't have, like, it's just little things like that that would surface, you know, if they were to, you know how LDS members are like, they might call and ask the bishop to come visit somebody or so you just never know how that kind of stuff surfaces. So we did have to, to, we did have to tell them.

John Dehlin [04:33:03] Yeah. And so they can't even give you your dignity that way to let it be a private confidential thing. You have to break grandma's heart, break grandpa's heart, break your mom's heart, break your dad's heart, disappoint your siblings, basically fail your entire multi generational family. It's, it really is barbaric. And, and it's, you know, it's, it's hard again because like there are real problems in the world like police brutality on people of color or starvation or you know, natural disasters, you know, child abuse, like, they're really awful things. And this is awful too. And so, you know, I guess it's first world problems, but it's painful to us and you know, just, it's not something a Christian, it's not something a church named after Christ. Christ should be doing, in my opinion.

Neesha Brost [04:33:56] Right, right.

Kyle Brost [04:33:57] I think the hard, I mean it goes back to what I originally said about belief. The hard part for me is I may not believe the same thing, but what a silly thing in like whether you believe in a God in the sky or whether you don't. What a silly thing to tear people apart about. We both want to make the world a better place. We both want to share in and valuable, meaningful experiences. We both want to see each other succeed in life. So why is it that we allow belief to be the thing that tears us apart? And why do we let the church play a role in doing that. Why? Why can't we recognize that that's such a silly thing to have to tear people apart. It just doesn't have to be that way.

Membership Council, Resignation, and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [04:34:45] I had a Jewish friend who's in like a liberal progressive Jewish congregation say that like in conservative Orthodox Judaism, it's believe, then behave, then belong in that order. And that in their liberal Jewish congregation, it's belong first. You just belong. Right. And then, yeah, behavior's nice because, you know, we do have traditions and you know, if you want to follow those great Sabbath or kosher, whatever, whatever. And believe is last, right? It's like, oh, yeah, beliefs don't really. That's not super important. Mormonism's still there. It's belief first, then behavior and then belong last. And that's in terms of priority. And yeah, again, it's something that's so bizarre is a Catholic is like the church kicks you out. I mean, I know they like invented excommunication, but they figured it out. All the other Christian churches out there, like, okay, they're not members anymore. Like, okay, you're gone. Like, why withdraw the membership? What do you guys think about this idea that it's no longer a disciplinary council, it's a membership council. It's no longer excommunication, it's membership withdrawal. You know, a banana is not a banana. Do you have any feedback on that change? Does it feel any better to have it name changed? Does that feel any better? Better?

Neesha Brost [04:36:10] No. It's like you said before, it's the exact same thing. So I don't even know why they put forth all the work to change the names and all of your manuals. Like, wait, I mean, isn't there a better thing you could be using your money and your time for?

Kyle Brost [04:36:23] Yeah, I mean, status quo for the church to kind of reframe language, hoping that it changes. I don't know something about it. What's interesting is in the discussion with the bishop, he. He straight up acknowledged like, yeah, it's a disciplinary council and it's X excommunication. Like, we didn't mince words. We didn't try to. He didn't correct me. I know what it's called, what they called in the handbook now, but he didn't try to correct me because it doesn't change anything.

John Dehlin [04:36:50] Yeah, it's just pr, which is gross when it's supposed to be prophets receiving revelation from God to just be doing PR games to rename things as if that's meaningful as. Yeah, so. So if Somebody were to say to you, okay, somebody just made the comment. Oh, no. Like in Tasha's letter. It's like, hey, you can rejoin in a year. All you got to do is come back to church and counsel for a year and follow all the commandments and stop doing all the things that are wrong. You can just rejoin. What if somebody says, look, look, no matter what you say, you've not been excommunicated. You're just no longer a member, and you can rejoin at any time as soon as you want. Want. No harm, no foul. They've taken out the stigma. I think it's a fair argument. They. They. You're no longer excommunicated. You're just not a member. They've taken out the stigma. Although I guess technically you are apostates, because it was for apostasy. But anyway, besides that, you know, you're not a member anymore, and you can rejoin at any time. If somebody says that's. That's an improvement, what would you say?

Kyle Brost [04:37:55] I think it might be an improvement for someone. For me, I would say, what do you have to give me? Like, you. You know, the church no longer has something to give me. It has nothing to offer me. The beliefs weren't valuable enough. The hope wasn't valuable enough, because I can find belief and I can find hope in a thousand other places. We've even found community. In other places, we found love and acceptance. In other places, we found tools for living, for setting goals, for creating values. We found all of that stuff without all of the baggage. So why. Why would I come back? Why would I want that? What do you have to give me? I feel like all I would be doing is bringing everything to you that would be of value, and you would just reject it again and again.

Neesha Brost [04:38:47] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:38:48] Yeah. What about the argument that. That from the church's point of view, which is, look, you guys know that the factual history is dangerous. You know that once you start reading church history and having empathy for people who have left or loving gay or transgender people or caring about systemic racism or caring about the status of women in feminism, you know that those are all slippery slopes to apostasy. So. And you know that they're all like viruses that spread, that lead towards disaffection and disbelief in the church. So the church has to excommunicate its tiktokers and its Instagramers and its YouTubers and its podcasters and its social media people because. Because the virus will be spread, and it's the only way to stop the virus. Isn't it totally understandable why the church has to stomp out these cockroaches before they infest the entire house.

Neesha Brost [04:39:55] Yeah, that makes a ton of sense why they're trying to do it, but I feel like it's. It only puts them in a corner, doesn't it?

Kyle Brost [04:40:04] I think for me, it's. It's one of the greatest advantages that the LDS Church has is this concept of revelation that their prophet is literally speaking to God, and yet they don't leverage that to even a tenth of the degree that. Imagine if the prophet came out and said, hey, you know what? I literally sat down with God Jesus the other day, and here's what he told me. We should love and accept and affirm. Like, there's another way to get your members to be loving and accepting and in and committed. There's another way to do that. It doesn't. Control and manipulation is child's game when it comes to somebody's agency and life experience. If you really want them to be in, give them the tools and the freedom to be in with all of their passion, not all of their fear.

John Dehlin [04:41:05] But what if they know that belief is that, like, history is a virus and social justice stuff is a virus? And what if they know that they have no answers? Like, I actually, I have a friend that talked to Marlon Jensen once, the former general authority church historian, and he basically said, once we lose someone over faith crisis issues, we never get them back. So we don't even. We have no way to help them. We never get them back back. And so when, you know, when they show up on your doorstep after having never met you and then tell you, Basically, you got 45 minutes and then we're excommunicating you, it's it that's informed from the framework of them realizing they've lost you forever and they got to cut you off. They got to cut off the, the gangrene before it spreads to the rest of the body. Because they don't have any. They literally don't have any answers that are credible that are working. And.

Kyle Brost [04:42:04] Well, I mean, I agree, like, with what Nisha said, I put that idea out there. But I agree that they're backed into a corner. I agree that if they were to do something like that, that, honestly, probably the older generations would struggle a lot with some sort of big change or shift. I don't know what I would tell them because I. I wouldn't tell them anything because I don't. Not to be like, flippant, but I don't care if the Church survives. So I wouldn't tell them anything. Like it's not my problem to solve. I can go be a bigger influence in the world in my own way. And whether you make the right or wrong decision is yours to live with. Hopefully we can get some people to see like that there is a freedom of living out there that isn't bound to the church. But whether they make the right or wrong decision, I, I, I couldn't care less if the church dies. It's like no skin off my back. I would in some ways celebrate people having freedom and being able, if they want to be religious and spiritual, being able to go find one that actually fits their needs without feeling like they have to find the one right.

Neesha Brost [04:43:08] One right. Or having the ability just to create their own right. I think that's been one.

Kyle Brost [04:43:13] Not religion, but faith.

Neesha Brost [04:43:14] Right. Their own faith. Right. We don't need another Joseph Smith. But I just, that's probably been one the of, of the best parts of leaving is being able to explore our spirituality together and say, you know what, what feels good to us, what actually resonates with us, what do we want to keep? What do we want to change? What do we want to do better? And I, you know, if the church was loving, I feel like they have a handbook for everything else. Couldn't they make a handbook on how to leave?

John Dehlin [04:43:42] That'd be awesome. That's a great idea. Idea.

Kyle Brost [04:43:45] Well, we're working on it.

John Dehlin [04:43:46] So that's, that's why you signed up for ex Mormon TikTok? Yeah. So what's ironic is that, well, number one, the point is these disciplinary councils hurt people. They, you should just see what Natasha was like before and after her excommunication. She is still recovering. My family's still recovering years later. These disciplinary councils are barbaric and medieval and they harm people. And that's why they need to stop. And that's why we're going to keep showing up at them and holding parties and bringing the media. We're going to keep doing that and turning them into sacraments and celebrations until the church stops because they're harming people. That should be enough for the church and it's not. So I'm going to give the church one more reason to stop these disciplinary councils. It's not working. The more every time you excommunicate a John Dehlin or a Bill Real or a Kate Kelly or a and Natasha for Parker or Aaliyah and Cody Young, doesn't matter. Carson and Marisa Calderwood, you're going to Be excommunicating a significant percentage of their network. You're going to piss off their parents, their kids, their siblings. It's going to be this huge social media event that we're going to keep doing and keep doing. We're going to rub this in your nose until you stop. And so if you don't want to stop because it's the right thing to do, do, and because it's harming people, you're going to stop because we're going to make it so you realize that you're accelerating your demise by excommunicating people and shaming them and harming them in this way. Find another way to deal with it, Mormon church, than excommunicating people with these. By spying on people, by holding excommunication, these stupid disciplinary councils and excommunicating people. Find another way.

Neesha Brost [04:45:36] Well, all the people you listed and Sam Young, all these people are only. They only have these good intentions. Sam Young wanted to help children. Like, why would you kick somebody out of your church for wanting to help children? Didn't Jesus love the children? Like, I just makes no sense to me.

Kyle Brost [04:45:55] Well, and just to your point, John, we had two people reach out to us asking about two friends reach out to us asking about our story. And when they found out our story, they said, said, that's the push I've needed to. To resign. So just hearing our story was enough for them to say it's meaningful to us because the reason they were willing to resign because of our story was because they thought enough of us. They said, if my church is willing to kick you two out or give you this ultimatum, I can't be a part of it. And so they think that what they did was get rid of us. And all they did was send us out, out with a bunch of other people.

John Dehlin [04:46:33] What are you feeling, Nisha?

Neesha Brost [04:46:38] I just feel touched that other people see that we're trying to be good and that we are trying to just help others. No other marriage needs to suffer for seven years because of purity culture. No other marriage needs to go through some of the hell that we went through because someone decides to change their belief. No marriage needs to do that. And no single person needs to feel lost and alone for using their given ability to think critically or to be their own person. And so to hear again that people just. The church didn't take away our credibility with everybody. And I am grateful for that. And it is just so humbling that people would be there to support us like that and be like, okay, if they're gonna. If they're gonna act that way to you guys, I can't be a part of it. And that's why we wanted to be there for Natasha on Sunday, because again, if they're gonna treat someone who just wants some change.

John Dehlin [04:47:46] Healthy change. Healthy change. Yeah.

Neesha Brost [04:47:50] We can't be a part of that. Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:47:57] Yeah. Yeah. It's just so crazy. And, yeah, the church. I'll speak in a language the church understands in terms of pyramid schemes. You know, the way the pyramid scheme work is that one person gets five people, and then those five people get five people, and then those five. Five people get five people, and then all of a sudden there's, you know, a lot of people and a lot of money. Well, guess what? Mormon Church excommunications are like a pyramid scheme in reverse. You excommunicate somebody, and then five people leave because of them. And then those people have disciplinary councils or resign from the church, and then each of those people get five more people, and church, you're actually accelerating your own demise. And so I guess some of you would say, well, John, well, stop telling them. But, you know, honestly, I want less pain if we can make the church be less barbaric. I actually want that for the remaining three, two or three million people that remain in the church, even though they

Neesha Brost [04:48:57] claim 60 million, we want our family and friends who are still in it to have this good experience. So if more people or whoever wants to speak out about the harmful things that are there, it can help change the church. Because like we've talked about before, we see that the church eventually does change. Change. And they will change some of these teachings. It just might take 10 to 20 years, which sucks, but they will change.

Kyle Brost [04:49:21] Yeah. Yeah. And the more people speak up, the faster we can encourage that change. But if nobody speaks up, I mean, it's the way of the world. If nobody speaks up, they have no incentive to change. And so just by sharing a voice and sharing a story, you can make a difference.

John Dehlin [04:49:36] And that brings it back to TikTok, because what the church is excommunicating people for is raising their voice. What allows the ignorance, what allows the lack of informed consent, or his agency, as you call it, what allows the LGBT suicides, the marriage destruction, what facilitates all that is silence. Silence is the killer. Silence is deadly. That's why silence is what the Mormon Church is depending on, that its members stay silent. That's what's so beautiful about you. YouTube, Facebook, TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, and social media is that people have the ability, the option to raise their voice and to speak out again. Our goal at Mormon Stories is never to take down the Mormon Church, even though some people close to me want that. My goal is not even to take people out of the church. It is to enlighten and awaken as many people as possible to the realities of the church, to help people find healing and growth, to transition out if they want to, to find community and as like a fifth or sixth goal, because it's not my lane. If we can help the church be less barbaric and inhumane and hurt less people, that'll be icing on the cake. And the way that happens is by people, lifting them, raising their voice. You guys have done it. TikTok, ex Mormon. TikTok is amazing. And, and that's why we wanted to celebrate you.

Neesha Brost [04:51:02] You guys, thank you so much. We appreciate it. We. Honestly, when you asked us to be on your podcast, it was a really exciting moment because you're. I. You never would know, unless I talk to you face to face, how much your podcast helped us. Right. And the community you made for us in a time of. Of doubt and fear and struggle. So we appreciated it so much to be able to. To be here on this platform and share our story. Because again, just like TikTok, I know there's somebody out there who can relate to our story, and I just hope that they know that there's. There's goodness and joy and hope on the other side of all of those, you know, angry feelings and sadness and.

John Dehlin [04:51:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. Okay, so let's. We want to show that last video as we close. So how did you end the meeting with your. With your bishop?

Kyle Brost [04:51:58] We walked the front door. I handed him our resignation letters. We had two drafted up. One that we could each sign that included our children's names. And then I made one last plea to him that if he was meeting with somebody and his tools weren't working, that he would please, please reach out to us. Please give us a chance to help somebody who is struggling. I tried to reassure him that we would not try to convince them to leave the church, but that we would simply be there to. To hear them.

John Dehlin [04:52:33] And.

Kyle Brost [04:52:34] And then we let him leave.

John Dehlin [04:52:38] And unfortunately, to him, that would be like saying, oh, you guys have Covid. Yeah, I'm going to put you with my grandmother to watch my grandmother while you guys are Covid, you know, because obviously, obviously, you're the last people at that point that he's gonna recommend to help someone who's Struggling, which is all the more tragic but all the more inspiring as to why, as to what you guys are doing with Tick Tock and your channel. So is it. Should we show the. Should we show the last video really quick? Do you guys want to set. Set this? I don't know, set this video up and tell us what it is?

Neesha Brost [04:53:10] What we posted right after.

Kyle Brost [04:53:11] Yeah. So this was just. This was just our emotion. And honestly, we wanted people to see a mix because as we talked about, this whole experience has been a mix of emotion. And so it's not. I think a lot of people read into it as just sadness. I think it's all of that. All of that. It's us coming together. It's sadness for loss and a degree of finality. It's hope. It. It's. It's really all of that kind of captured in this one short moment. And it's authentic. This was real.

Neesha Brost [04:53:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:53:48] Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, let's play it now. I'll mute you guys and we'll play your. Your final video for today.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [04:53:57] Imagine there's no heaven she's in if you try. No hell below us.

Video Clip 1 [04:54:17] Above us only sky

Video Clip 1 [04:54:22] Imagine all Imagine

John Dehlin [04:54:25] there's no heaven Wait, you guys just kissed yourself. You kissed each other? I want to see that again. Show us that one more time. Time. It's beautiful. No, that was super beautiful. And that's just the beauty of TikTok. You can make someone cry or laugh in 15 or 30 seconds. Right?

Neesha Brost [04:54:46] Right?

Kyle Brost [04:54:46] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:54:47] Yeah. Well, I want to talk to you guys forever. It's five hours now. I thought this is for sure going to be a two hour interview. And that's how bad. That's how awful I am. But I have not regretted a single minute. Minute. What do you guys want to say in closing?

Final Reflections and Message to Those Questioning

Neesha Brost [04:55:05] That if you are struggling, if you are questioning, we love you. Give yourself grace, trust your own intuition and love who you are. Because I think that was one of the most beautiful things of this whole process, was understanding that we can love who we truly are and that we can love each other for who the other person really is. And that we're going to give our kids an environment to be their authentic and true selves and that life can be so beautiful and so fun and so good when you're not trying to live up to someone else's level of perfection.

Kyle Brost [04:55:46] I would echo everything Nisha just said. And one, for whatever it's worth, I would just give you permission to be your authentic self. If nobody's done that yet, I would give you permission to Be whoever it is that you feel deep down inside you need to be. It's okay. You can be that person. And you can find beauty and love in your own life in whatever way you see that you want to do it or need to do it. And you don't have to be restricted by how someone else is telling you you have to do, do it. So I would just give you that permission to live as authentically you as you can.

John Dehlin [04:56:28] And let me just ask you, we're all conditioned as Mormons with this phrase, wickedness never was happiness. And then there's these talks by people like Jeffrey R. Holland, which is, you know, basically say, you can't raise healthy kids without the church. You'll never be happy without the church, blah, blah, blah. Stay in the boat. If somebody were to say to you guys, can you have better mental health leaving the church? Can you have a better marriage leaving the church? Can you have a better sex life leaving the church? Can you make better friends, have a better community? Have you traded up or down in those areas?

Kyle Brost [04:57:05] I would say unequivocally with every fiber of my being that all of those things, things have been better outside of the church for us than they ever were in the church. So I joke a little bit, but sincerely, life has been better outside of the church in every way than it was inside for us.

Neesha Brost [04:57:29] Amen.

John Dehlin [04:57:32] And then if somebody says, yeah, but that's just. That's Satan who's kind of deceiving you. And you know what I mean like that. That's. You've been deceived, basically.

Neesha Brost [04:57:41] Well, he's my homeboy. Then.

John Dehlin [04:57:44] It's working. It's working.

Neesha Brost [04:57:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:57:47] All right, Nish and Kyle, tell us the name of your TikTok channel again.

Neesha Brost [04:57:50] Challenge Faith.

John Dehlin [04:57:52] If somebody wants to reach out to you guys outside of TikTok, how do they do that?

Neesha Brost [04:57:57] Kyle's a little bit more active on Facebook.

Kyle Brost [04:57:59] Yeah, you can connect with me on Facebook. It's just Kyle Brost. You could also send us an email@infochallengejournals.com Beautiful.

John Dehlin [04:58:12] Well, you guys are just super lovely and heart. Your. Your. Your story was heartfelt and epic and meaningful. I know this is going to help a lot of people. So on behalf of all my listeners, just, you know, thank you, Nisha and Kyle Brost, for coming on. Thanks for telling your story. Thanks for your TikTok channel. Thanks for what you do do. Keep it up, stay in touch and prepare for the tsunami of people reaching out to you to thank you, to show you their love and appreciation. There May be a little bit of shunning going on, but, you know, you're never gonna avoid that. But by almost. To almost every person I've ever interviewed, they're glad they did the interview because of all the doors and opportunities and relationships. Relationships that it opens and, or improves. So I, I wish you guys all the best.

Kyle Brost [04:59:04] Thank you so much.

Neesha Brost [04:59:05] Yes, we appreciate you so much.

Kyle Brost [04:59:07] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:59:08] Keep up the good work.

Neesha Brost [04:59:09] You too.

John Dehlin [04:59:10] Stay in touch. And listeners, thanks so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories podcast. Five hours and we've still got like 800-700-800 people here joining us, so it's been amazing. Thank you. Please. I want to say thank you to everyone who supports us, who donates to the Open Stories Foundation. We could not do this. Cameras, lighting, Internet, rent. My salary, you know, compensation. Brooklyn, our editor, Gerardo, our cinematographer. We've got other cool plans in the works. Software. We couldn't do all this without your support. So thank you so much to everyone who donates to the Open Stories foundation to make this possible. One quick favor or request. We always have haters who are trying to destroy us, and we always have people trying to smear us, and we always have people who just cancel their donations for whatever reason. And sometimes it's financial and then, and then, of course, you know, with COVID it's been really hard financially on a lot of people. So if you value this type of programming, if you want to see it continue, if you don't want to see Mormon Stories go away, and if you want to see us to be to, able, able to do more to help people and basically get me some help so that I can sometimes get a good night's sleep and stay healthy, please consider becoming a monthly donor. Go to mormonstories.org There's a donate button at the top. Click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor. 10 bucks a month, 20 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month. Whatever you can afford. It's tax deductible. In the US we're transparent in our finances. We are ethical and we treat people well. And we just. All the money you donate, 100% of it goes to the podcast, to furthering the cause, to building community, to helping people in transition, to promoting healing and growth and Mormonism, and to waking people up. So please, become a monthly donor. If you're not, if you can't, or even if you are, please spread the word. Share these episodes on social media. Social media Let people know and then give us your feedback@mormonstoriesgmail.com and comment on Facebook, on Instagram, on Twitter, comment, email us and give us your feedback and then comment on the blog@mormonstories.org we love you guys. Thank you so much for staying. And check out TikTok. Check out ex Mormon TikTok. And you know, shout out to Ex Mormon TikTok. Keep up the good work. Let's grow that community along with all the the other communities. Take care, everybody. Love you guys. Have a great weekend. See you soon. See you guys again soon on another another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care of.

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