Introducing Lance Allred and the Episode

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is April 26, 2021 and today I am super excited to have back on Mormon Stories Podcast a familiar face to me and hopefully to some of you. Today I'm bringing back none other than Lance Allred.

Lance Allred [00:00:18] Hey, Lance, it's good to be back. John, thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] So great to have you. So those of you who have been longtime Mormon Stories podcast fans will remember Lance. I, I had him on several years ago. Lance came from a fundamentalist Mormon background as the grandson of the founder of the Rulon Allred of the Allred group, which is one of the main fundamentalist offshoots. He was raised in Montana. He was born deaf, super tall, and eventually he became a college basketball player, played at the University of Utah under Rick Pajeris, and then he had a goal of becoming a professional basketball player. He played for both the Cleveland Cavaliers with LeBron James and for the Indiana Pacers. But he also had like a 10 year professional basketball career playing all around the world. Yeah, lots of fun places. And that's just the beginning because he also is the author of four or five books. Some of the books include Longshot the Adventures of a Deaf Fundamentalist Mormon Kid and his Journey to the NBA and Basketball Gods, the Transformation of the enlightened Jock. And recently a couple years ago, he gave a TEDx talk at Salt Lake City or University of Utah. TEDx. It's got between 3 and 4 million views now. Yeah, received really well. It's one of the best, I think most viewed TED talks to ever come out of kind of Mormonism or fundamentalist Mormonism called what is your polygamy? And then he went on to write a book called how to give the million view TEDx talk. What is your polygamy? So he's a mover to shaker. He's also a public speaker. He travels around the country and I'm guessing world as a paid motivational speaker. And the reason why we brought him on Mormon Storage podcast today is because right before COVID he came out with an exciting book. I'm going to hold it up here. The book is called the new Alpha Male how to win the Game when the Rules are changing by Lance Allred. And the way that I heard about this book, I, I've been a fan of Lance's for some time, but somehow this book hadn't really caught my attention. My wife Margi was listening to a podcast that Lance had appeared on where he was talking about this book. And, you know, recently I did an episode on unlearning Mormon misogyny. You know, we know that we come out of a patriarchy. Those of us who have left Mormonism or are still in it, we either in a patriarchy or have come out of a patriarchy. You know, our culture, our modern culture for the past several millennia, if not for the entire human evolution, existence has been informed by and based in, rooted in patriarchy. And as 21st century humans, we're trying to figure out a better way. And when we are raised in a patriarchy, when patriarchy is all we know, it's like the water we're swimming in. And men develop all sorts of toxic traits. It's a term that's often referred to as toxic masculinity. And, and it's not just a Mormon thing, it's a human thing, but it's definitely in Mormonism. And just because you may stop believing in orthodox Mormonism and or leave the Mormon Church, that doesn't mean that you have all of a sudden become enlightened and lost all the misogynistic conditioning that you were raised with. And so what we have to do is figure out, you know, what does it mean to be a man? And it's even more complicated because now we have not only men and women, but we're in a society where non traditional gender identities are also emerging, like gender, non binary people, transgender people. So gender is kind of being discussed and let's just say challenged and, or abandoned. Not that gender isn't important, but that what if we could have a more evolved, sophisticated and enlightened approach to understanding gender? And specifically, what I want to focus on today is how can those of us who identify as male or as men, how can we again, unlearn some of this toxic masculinity and misogyny and have a rebirth of what it means to be a man in a way that's more enlightened. And I have read, I'm going to admit it, I've read half of this book, literally half. I've got half to go. But I've read enough of it, I think, to be able to have a really good, at least starting conversation with Lance. And, and then what I hope to do is to convince Lance to start a podcast where he just, you know, begins becoming a public voice for helping men learn to do and be better. And there's so much wisdom in this book, and I mean, Brene Brown type level wisdom, that I think men, I hope you will not turn this Off. And I hope men you will listen, because I believe that Lance has a lot to help us with. So without any further ado, Lance Allred, welcome. What would you say in reaction to that introduction? Anything you want to correct?

Lance Allred [00:05:17] No, a lot of things I wanted to interject because obviously my brain's going off on tangents. You covered a lot. And so thank you for that intro. And this is an honor for me to have this conversation with you because you and I share many similar archetypes. The philosopher and even the peaceful warrior archetype that you have, that is not necessarily your intellectual. That is what was threatening to Mormon leadership when they excommunicated you. It was your heart. The peaceful warrior archetype that you move around with, that you championing other people, moving with compassion and empathy. And that's a hard thing to do in this world where anyone can puff their chest and be bravado. That's not hard to do at all. Walk into a bar, 10 guys are ready to puff their chest and step up to you because you're big. I don't go to clubs because I'm big. I get tired of people stepping up to me. It's not hard to do. Is difficult to do because you and I were not socially conditioned. To do is actually empathetically put ourselves in another person's shoes and walk a mile in their shoes and try to see life through their lens. That is a very difficult thing to do, especially in patriarchy. And here's how I will sum up patriarchy with one word. Scarcity. That is the general energetic theme of patriarchy. There's not enough for everyone to go around. So therefore that is a threat with compassion. Compassion, if I move in scarcity and patriarchy means if I give someone compassion, they're going to take advantage of me and exploit me and take from me. And so you moving around with the peaceful warrior archetype. Let's talk about the power of compassion because it's one of the seven principles of perseverance that I have in the book that talks about the new alpha. And I know new alpha male is triggering. And I did not choose the title. My publishers, both women chose the title because when someone's triggered, that actually is the easiest entry point for them to do some self reflection and healing and growth. And I know that will turn a lot of women off. They think this is a book about rah rah bravado. But some point you brought in as a book for men, but also as a book for women. Women moving into leadership Positions, which is high time and necessary for that to happen. But also for women to understand and hold space for their husbands, sons, brothers. Understanding how much work it is required of us to break away from Cold war America, social conditioning. That said, my masculinity is directly attached to my trophies. How many nuclear weapons and guns that I have. All those symbolic metrics that we were taught meant that I had arrived or I was an alpha. So therefore the skill of going inward, the skill of self reflection was not something we were taught, not just in Mormonism, but across the board America. But in Mormonism especially. Moving to the first principle of perseverance, which is accountability, corporate keynote level accountability. I tell people the buck stops with me. I never use my hearing as an excuse. When I was playing basketball. I wasn't going to give people the satisfaction of that. But deeper accountability is asking yourself tough questions. Why do I feel guilt because I got caught or because I lied to my wife? Why? Or am I afraid of abandonment from my community? Why do we feel these feelings of guilt and shame? Is it to belong or is it because I am not in alignment with my core true authentic self? That is what a new alpha male accountability is. Being able to sit and have uncomfortable conversations with yourself and asking what really is driving me and more importantly, what stories. If you remember from our first interview, I know I'm going on a tangent here.

Redefining Alpha: Compassion Over Dominance

John Dehlin [00:09:28] That's good.

Lance Allred [00:09:29] I love it. I had the story that God was angry with me and he was punishing me and gave me the punishment of deafness for being unfaithful in the pre existence. It was impressed upon me when I was five years old. That is a story. Things do happen to us. That's not in question. What is in question is which archetype is narrating the story. The victim, the martyr, the saboteur, the child. The child archetype. And if you pay attention to these languages, we'll get into the archetypes later. But that is what I mean by accountability and being able from our Mormon upbringing background, instead of just saying, I'm doing this because this is what I was told is convenient, this is what the prophet told me to do. And surface level accountability is I'm following the rules to stay in a system that's surface level accountability. Deeper accountability is asking why do I want to be in this system? Yeah, tough question to ask. Because at the basic human level, we want to feel we belong somewhere.

John Dehlin [00:10:38] Yeah, yeah. And I, I love it that you started out by talking about, kind of by acknowledging there's going to be some discomfort in this conversation.

Toxic Masculinity and Its Cultural Roots

Lance Allred [00:10:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:49] Using the term alpha male is going to be triggering for some people. And for many men, talking about toxic masculinity and patriarchy and misogyny is like an automatic turnoff.

Lance Allred [00:11:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:01] And then talking about accountability, that's important because men have privilege. We do. We have had privilege for millennia, and we have had a greater share of the power. And that has led to, frankly, marginalized groups.

Lance Allred [00:11:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] Physically weaker groups being harmed. And so men. I just want to. I just want to say this is. This is uncomfortable. This is going to be triggering maybe at times. And again, I love it that you're saying this isn't just for men, because this is. This is very important for everyone. Women, too. That, that we all learn. Because a woman. Let's just say a woman's ascending the corporate ladder. A woman could learn from male role models.

Lance Allred [00:11:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:46] And emulate misogyny and patriarchy.

Lance Allred [00:11:50] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:11:51] As women.

Lance Allred [00:11:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] And so it's something that, you know, patriarchy hurts everybody.

Lance Allred [00:11:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:56] Patriarchy hurts women, and it hurts men. And it. And, and, and so let me, let me, though, just jump back. There's a lot of people that won't have. You know, we have had a lot of listeners since. Join. Since I interviewed you.

Lance Allred [00:12:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:11] And, and there's a lot of listeners that kind of drop off. So if you can just tell us enough about your story, but specifically, what led to you wanting to write a book? Because I, you know, here. Here's how I'd ask the question. Oh, man, you already played for the NBA. You're a professional basketball player for 10 years, and now you're a successful motivational speaker. You could be talking about, hey, I used to play with LeBron James. And, hey, I was a professional athlete. Like, you could ride that ticket all the way into the sunset. Why would you ever want to wade into the culture wars of toxic masculinity, misogyny like that, like, that's. Those are landmines that many men are just afraid to even wade in. So tell us enough about your story to help us understand why you wanted to do this.

Lance Allred [00:12:59] I will go into my story briefly. Just let me have a little quick input. Yes, men have been in control, but we also need to understand the compassion and give men compassion and understanding that in this system, we're designed to be in control. And so therefore, we have to follow a formula. And if we don't have power, that means that we are not man enough. So that's terrifying for men to move into the space of, like, wait if you're taking away the system that I am being told that I have to ascend, the system that's been tailor made for me to ascend, and you're telling me the system is flawed as all systems eventually erode anyway. It's the law of entropy. Would be terrifying for men. And so just to validate what you said, this is uncomfortable conversations, but this is what is required of alpha status. To be able to do difficult things and have uncomfortable conversations. That's why it's called Alpha. Anyone can puff their chest. That's not hard to do. Again, that's not an alpha thing to do. To be able to sit and have very, very uncomfortable conversations that uproot your entire facade of your identity. Difficult things to do. And I appreciate anyone listening and hanging in there with you and me with this conversation. Going into my arc, the story, being born and raised in a polygamous commune of extreme Mormon fundamentalism, where Alpha was, you know, having six, seven, eight wives. And, you know, imagine that still being a subconscious story embedded in me that we break away, my family, my father blows a whistle on child abuse and money laundering, we break away when I'm 13, that even then, if I can't keep one woman happy, what does that say about me as a man when my grandfather could keep seven women happy?

John Dehlin [00:15:02] You know, you say you got married and divorced.

Lance Allred [00:15:04] Yes. Okay, yeah, all those things. And so that's me jumping ahead. But that's something that is just going. I'm trying to create context of how much that amplified my status as a man in that world is directly tied to the woman I marry, how many women I marry, that is a reflection of my alpha status. That's how you were raised. Exactly. That's how I was raised. So that is the extreme culture that I'm coming from, showing extreme patriarchy. And I had the hearing loss due to RH factor. My mother was a negative blood type. I was positive. So her body was killing me off as a parasite. And so when I was born, I was nearly dead and very lucky to be alive. But there were no amenities to learn sign language in Montana at that time, the 1980s. So I had to be taking the speech therapy three times a week. I was in speech therapy till I was 13 to learn to speak this way. And when we broke away from polygamy at 13, I never. I didn't play basketball. My father was a theologian, the doctrinaire, the scholar. And so we were taught to be. Basically, it was a seminary house is what it was. And my. But My father was a baseball prodigy when he was a kid, but he gave up baseball to fulfill his father's dream, as Rulin wanted him to, to expand the utopian dream of Pinesdale, Montana and all that. And so breaking away from polygamy, losing all my cousins who are my best friends, I. We then moved to downtown Salt Lake City, where I grew that year from 8th grade and from 510 to 6 4. Coach saw me walking down the hall so I couldn't play ball. I'm like, sure, I don't have any friends would be a good way to fit in. And so I wasn't very good at first.

John Dehlin [00:16:50] But which high school was this?

Lance Allred [00:16:51] There was, there was Bryant Intermediate High School right next to East High School. And then I went to east and

John Dehlin [00:16:58] we should say we. We've interview dad Vance. All read on Mormon stories as well. You can pause this, go back and listen to my interview with Vance and then come back. Vance was a high school history teacher, right.

Lance Allred [00:17:08] At Alta, at Alta High School, Alta High School and so little by little, though, basketball was a great segue for me to belong to something again because I came out of extreme belonging. Having my cousins around me, constant blood buzz. Now basketball still allowed me to segue into something while I was socially arrested development. Socially, that again, I didn't have any social skills. Very shy, introverted with my speaking and my hearing. And when you're raised at your God's chosen people and you're elite because of your bloodline, you don't really work on developing social skills. And so having to learn all that, luckily I could do it through basketball. And I had my teammates to kind of tolerate me at times and help me learn and grow and they were so patient with me and I love so much gratitude for all of them. And then Gatorade Player of the year for State of Utah 1999. Went to committed to Utah the year they lost to Kentucky, the national championship game in 1998. Played for Rick Majeris one year was good, second year was a tough year and didn't work out. Won't go into all that story then transfer the Weber State.

John Dehlin [00:18:22] We talk about that in my interview.

Lance Allred [00:18:23] Yeah, I talked about that in the

John Dehlin [00:18:24] first interview with you. It's interesting stuff.

Lance Allred [00:18:26] It is. I mean but it goes to show. Show just the gladiator toxic but the gladiator arena that is sports that people don't care about your feelings. You weren't at you when you're an athlete. Bleed sweat, die if you have to, but entertain me. And as long as you're winning games, we won't question how you're doing it as long as you're winning. And that is pure patriarchy at its best. And then went to Weber State. And so climbing the sports world, having gone sideways with coach Majeris and dealing with some blackballing but then redeeming myself at Weber State. Led the nation in rebounding most of the year with Andrew Bogut. That was. He was a great player. Paul Millsap, great player. We were battling for that. I was not drafted out of Weber. Went and played overseas. Then went to the minor leagues. Drafted in the NBA. I was called up at the age of 27. So seven years longer than the average rookie. Finally made the NBA. Became the first legally deaf player in the NBA. Couldn't play with my hearing aids. And so I had to learn to play basketball in different ways. Much more intuitive. Keeping my head on a swivel. Swivel being much more visually based. And so to answer your question, to sum it all up, why am I not the rah rah chase your dreams American dream motivational speaker. Because I followed that dream like the movies told us to. And I had the story deep embedded. Even though we'd broken away from polygamy that there's God was still angry with me and if I had to do something superhuman that I'd be worthy of. Not just from God but from a woman too. And I got to the NBA and my self worth was nowhere to be found.

Lance Allred's NBA Experience and Disillusionment

John Dehlin [00:20:10] Is that possible that you think you're playing with it? With LeBron James you're getting paid a lot of money. You reach the dream that everyone reaches. You think you're just feeling like a million bucks self actualized.

Lance Allred [00:20:24] Everything you think is self actualized but it's not. But your ego's happy. But at the heart you're still walking around in fear and scarcity that everyone around you is terrified of losing their job. And you see how political it really is when there's that much money involved. Of course it's political.

John Dehlin [00:20:44] Yeah.

Lance Allred [00:20:44] And so you want to believe it's a pure merit based system. But when it becomes that political it becomes like any other corporate job. And I thought once I got there I would have my crescendo of happily ever after music like the movie showed us. But the movies never show us what happens the day after. And I still felt fear. And I shot. I was for my first point in the NBA I was shooting a free throw in front of 16000 people. And the thought came in my head and it was. Is this it? I don't feel any different.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] You didn't feel amazing.

Lance Allred [00:21:22] Didn't feel amazing.

John Dehlin [00:21:23] Why not?

Lance Allred [00:21:24] Just because you. We've been taught, especially with Mormonism, that there's this fairy tale happily ever after and disenchantment comes whether you get the dream or you don't get the dream. That's part of growing up and moving into self actualization. When you realize I did everything the system told me to and I still don't know who the hell I am. I'm just a character in the system story and I can either kill myself, which I nearly did a year later.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] Really?

Lance Allred [00:22:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] What were you feeling?

Lance Allred [00:22:02] Because the economy hit in 2008 and the bubble burst and I was released from. And I was. Yeah, the Cavaliers. Okay. And then I was over in Italy and they weren't paying. I'm like, I did everything I was supposed to do. What happened? Where did it go wrong that I was not getting confirmation bias that is strong in Mormon culture, that Mormon Mormonism, even with all of its fairy tales and mysticism, if you study enough theology, Mormonism is one of the most linear left brain religions in the world. X plus Y equals Z. I have to get baptized, go on a mission, get married in a temple, and then I'll get to go to the 10th degree of glory in the celestial kingdom. Very formulaic, left brained, system based. And so when people follow the formula and life just works out their way, they're able to say the system works. That's called confirmation bias. People like you and me, who also are heart centered people, very philosophical, but in our empathy and our big hearts, we meet people and you traveling around the world who aren't Mormon. I'm like, wait, how can I say that they're less than me, but they're wonderful people. Too bad they don't get the hair and go to heaven, which is complete arrogance and hubris. That alone is already rattling my world. But I'm still following the system. I might get there and I expect eternal bliss. And things are going to work out great from there. And then it all comes crashing down. And in that moment, confirmation bias was gone. That I'm like, okay, I did everything the system told me to do. Where did it go wrong? Either God's still angry with me and punishing me and who wants to live that way, or the system is flawed and the system isn't really what it says to be. And if that's true, who the hell am I? Those are scary questions to be asking yourself when you're all by yourself in a hotel room in Italy, 10 floors up with no Internet, no TV, and you've read all the books you can to distract yourself and the pain of reality not meeting your expectations. And I had a choice in that moment, John. I can die with my stories where my stories can die. Stories. What I mean by story. A story is just a perspective. I never challenge what actually happens to people, but I do challenge which archetype is narrating the story. The victim, the victim. Language is this. Why does this always happen to me? Oh, this is happening again. People always leave. Martyr says, I don't deserve to be happy and have all my dreams come true at the same time. God doesn't want that for me. Child says, I need someone or something else to fulfill me or complete me. Saboteur says, I don't deserve this. Why do I get to be, have this rather than someone else? The survival archetypes that Carl Jung talks about, we all have those archetypes. And so I was living my first 30 years in a very child martyr, victim way. That's how I make sense of the world. God is far away, he's outside somewhere. And I have to do all these things to earn his love. And then I'll be completed from some external experience, some external trophy. Like the American dream teaches us. Once I get that NBA reward, I will in fact be fulfilled and validated. But I will tell you this, this disenchantment that I felt, every NBA player goes through it. And that's the thing, that's the, that's the great oxymoron of life. Again, clarity comes in spite of, of our dreams. Whether you get them or don't get your dreams, there's a disenchantment that is a necessary rite of passage as you go through the transformation into self actualization that is asking yourself, who am I really? And who do I choose to be going forward from that?

John Dehlin [00:26:19] What, what, what you're reminding me of are the, the documentaries I've seen about like Michael Jackson or Whitney Houston or, you know, that, you know, you know about Prince, the musician. Like all these musicians that literally were on top of the world, had fame, money, power, notoriety, they were loved and they all die of like drug overdoses. And you're like, what, what in the world? They're the ones that should be the happiest. But in addition to like the normal lived experience which is in and of itself fraught and problematic, it's got to be super hard to be playing at, you know, whatever. What's the Arena Cleveland coverage. Quicken Loans play in a Quicken Loans arena one year, and then the next year you're at some random hotel in Italy coming off that big high that's gotta be super hard to have once tasted.

Lance Allred [00:27:13] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:14] Such highs.

Lance Allred [00:27:15] Such highs.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] No longer have it.

Lance Allred [00:27:17] Here's. Here's the great internal war, though, is when I'm there, I don't even like being there. I don't like the reason why. I love the last dance documentary that came out.

John Dehlin [00:27:32] Michael Jordan.

Lance Allred [00:27:33] It finally showed people just how political and petty it really is.

John Dehlin [00:27:37] Yeah.

Lance Allred [00:27:37] Behind the scenes.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] Yeah.

Lance Allred [00:27:39] So when people say, why weren't you happy in the NBA? I'm like, now you can watch the documentary and you see Scottie Pippen. Yeah. It's not all milk and honey, Thomas. And it's. It's really.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] It's even Michael Jordan in that video. He talks about how he could never go anywhere.

Lance Allred [00:27:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:55] So he just stayed in his hotel room.

Lance Allred [00:27:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:57] And, like, watch TV because he couldn't go out in public.

Lance Allred [00:28:00] And so even that life, you're like, okay, I'm not even fulfilled. But at least I'm here. My ego wants to be here because people still know my name. They look at me, they want to be around me. They want my autograph or whatnot. And then suddenly you're in Italy. You're like, well, I don't want to be here either. Or where the hell do I want to be? And so can I ask one last thing?

John Dehlin [00:28:21] Yeah. Also, the traits that were required of you to make you successful as an athlete.

Lance Allred [00:28:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] I'm wondering if they served you well as a human.

Lance Allred [00:28:33] That's a really good question. And those are things I've had to learn to. This is when we talk about integrity in just a minute. Learning to integrate the athlete.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] Talk about what you. What traits you needed to be a successful athlete that maybe didn't serve you. And then we could talk about.

Lance Allred [00:28:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:48] What you had to swap them for

Lance Allred [00:28:50] to quickly go back. What I just summed up. That is the arc of my life and story. Yeah. And sounds true. The publisher in McMillan know that's my story. And they thought, this is a perfect person to address the issue of the hollowness of toxic masculinity and patriarchy. That someone who's been inside the belly of the beast. They can actually say what really is there. Now, going to. The traits that are needed. You have to be cutthroat. You have to not only traits of a.

John Dehlin [00:29:23] What?

Lance Allred [00:29:23] Huh?

John Dehlin [00:29:24] Traits.

Lance Allred [00:29:25] Traits to be required to be an athlete at the professional level.

John Dehlin [00:29:28] Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Lance Allred [00:29:29] Thank you, Tracer. To require to be an athlete at the professional level, you have to be able to be merciless and cutthroat.

John Dehlin [00:29:36] Though.

Lance Allred [00:29:36] Not only do I want to outscore my opponent, I actually want to make him homeless. Not only do I want to have him lose the game, I want to have him sent to the bench. I want to have him lose his job. I want to have him be homeless. That's how cold and cruel you have to be to be a professional athlete.

John Dehlin [00:30:00] Really? Yeah. You think most people. Most athletes, yeah.

Lance Allred [00:30:03] When you're going to get someone on the court, that's how much visceral disdain there is, that if you're really. I mean, it's one thing to play it against your friend, but like, when Jordan and Barclay were going at each other, it wasn't like, oh, they were laughing and patting each other on their ass when they were playing the game, they wanted to destroy each other, but off the court, they could be friends. But when you step on the court, there is an almost psychosis that has to happen for you to even have a fighting chance to survive, because not only is the person in front of you literally trying to do the same thing to you, you got teammates that want your job, you got coaches who are worried about their job. And so everyone is living in complete fear. There is no trust. And yet everyone's trying to sell this concept of team. But when, you know, coach, coach is just waiting for a better job opportunity, he'll go to take the next job as well. Yeah, he's spouting all these cliches about teamwork.

John Dehlin [00:31:11] Yeah.

Lance Allred [00:31:11] And you like bullshit, Coach. We see right through you. We're all here for the same thing. Everyone's trying to get theirs and move on. That's corporate culture, and that's what happens when you bring money into the game of basketball. And so, in that world, I had to learn. So before I was a basketball player, I was a writer. My parents taught me to read and write as a kid. I was winning the writing awards in elementary school. And then suddenly I became a basketball player. And only sissies write, so that was a huge part of myself that I had to hide from the world. The poet, the philosopher, the thinker with the hearing loss. I've always been very empathetic, watching people's body language and their words. Words can lie, but the body never lies. I learned that very early on. And so as a basketball player, I can look on a court and see who's afraid to even touch the ball before they even get it, just by their body language and the way they walk, where their toes are pointed, what tells me a lot. Body never lies. But those are things about myself that I had to cut off. And in that denial of my authentic self, that's where the hole in your heart is formed. That's where you think this. I feel empty because there are huge archetypes within me. The poet, the philosopher, the sensitive self that I am denying. And therefore I'm expecting some trophy or some woman outside of me to come in and complete that field, that void. Because this world is not a safe enough place. Not just a basketball court, but this world is not a safe enough place to let that sensitive side be shown. Because in patriarchy, someone will then come and exploit me. Or at least that's what patriarchy says will happen. Is it necessarily true? No. So these are the things we have to question and ask ourselves. And moving into integrity. Integrity is my second principle of perseverance. It's probably my favorite one. My parents pushed a lot of buttons in polygamy because they treated everyone exactly the same. You would think, wait, it's a polygamous social commune. Everyone's treated exactly the same, right? No. Humans are pack animals. There's hierarchy and patriarchy, even in socialist patriarchy. And yet, whether you were an Allred or a Jessup or a Widow or a Davis, it didn't matter to my parents. They treated everyone the same, and people loved them for that. And they also became a threat to people in power who were not authentic people. People who, like many coaches, when the cameras are on, are Mr. Charming, but behind closed doors, Mr. Hyde. And we've all had bosses or religious leaders or parents like that, even though once Sunday comes, they're all smiley at church, but come home, they're nightmares.

Emotional Suppression and the Masculine Role

John Dehlin [00:34:09] Or we've all been that.

Lance Allred [00:34:10] Yeah, we've all been that. Absolutely. Say what you want to about Bobby Knight, but he was grumpy on camera, grumpy off camera.

John Dehlin [00:34:18] That's integrity.

Lance Allred [00:34:19] And there is integrity in that, because you know what you're getting. And that is what I tell people. When you're in a leadership position and you're changing your personality depending on who's in the room. That's how I define integrity. Are you the same person in every room that you op that you walk into? Sure, you might be the student or the teacher, a different archetype, but by being the same people person, I mean, I'm asking, are you treating everyone exactly the same, and are you consistent in your Character. And are you integrated? And I was not integrated as an athlete because I was separate. I was living a schism. The athlete on the court, nice guy, which we'll talk about in a minute. Off the court.

John Dehlin [00:35:00] So you were a double person.

Lance Allred [00:35:02] Double person. I was not living in integrity. Completely polarized.

John Dehlin [00:35:06] That was your job description. You had to be that way.

Lance Allred [00:35:08] Had to be. And very clear from my parents. One day I came home with the athlete attitude, and my parents grounded me for two weeks and said, that person does not get to come here. And so I was taught, even as a child, cutthroat Lance, that everyone loves to root for and cheer for as a proxy for our community, a rep for our community. Go for their throat. Make them bleed. Destroy them. But once the lights turn off, when you come home, you have to be Lance. You have to be nice Lance. You have to be the prince. You have to be the nice guy. And let's talk about the nice guy. The nice guy. Mormons are quintessential nice people. Nice guys are the most dishonest people in the world. What do I mean by that? They never tell you exactly what they feel. They only tell you what they think you want to hear. And I was really good at that, knowing what people wanted to hear from me. And I would tell them what they wanted to hear, even if it was against my true self. Complete disregard for me. And so by that metric, Mormons are very dishonest people. Wait, no. We're taught you can't tell a lie, right? But when you're fake and you're completely nice to people that you gossip about to their face, that is dishonest and not living in integrity. And so when I went and played in Japan, I remember people warned me, oh, the Japanese, they're the nicest assholes in the world. I'm like, oh, these are my people. Then I get it. I speak the language. I come from that kind of culture where we never tell people exactly how we feel or what we really think. Just keep the peace. Keep everything surface level. So Mormons are don't know how to have intimacy? Not. I know I'm speaking blanket. This isn't blanket. True. But as a culture, Mormons are not taught how to have intimacy.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] And how is that hurting you in your personal life? Living kind of that double life? How is that hurting you?

Lance Allred [00:37:07] That everything has to be perfect, everything has to be clean, everything has to be silver linings. For example, here's how a Mormon was silver lying to me. If I'm going through a divorce, as A single father. Oh, but at least you got your kid out of it. Thank you. I know I got my kid out of it. And it really still. And it hurts. It still hurts. And then I had another friend, former Mormon, able to say, yeah, I've been there. And it really sucks. Just sucks, man. And being able to sit with me, just sit with me in my grief and let me grieve. Mormons to are afraid of the grief process. It's, oh, go shed tears for a day at the funeral, but then, oh, count your blessings. You'll see him in heaven. Everything's going to be great. Don't grieve for too long. Let's fast forward this process. Failing to understand that the grief cycle is probably the most powerful rite of passage that we can go through as human beings. Something that I know you've gone through as well in the grief and the death and the rebirth of who is John, as a Mormon now, excommunicated Mormon, that grieving cycle, a death of rebirth that you had to go through. And so as Mormons, the uncomfortable conversations about real human emotions, grief, despair, abandonment, fear, things that make us all really uncomfortable is like, oh, well, do you try praying harder? Maybe just go to church and everything will be okay. Let's just keep it clean. And so I lived a very compartmentalized life. Cutthroat Lance on the court, nice guy Lance off the court.

John Dehlin [00:38:53] But then also packing it down and avoiding your emotions and being. Not intentionally fake. No, just playing a role.

Lance Allred [00:39:00] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] You were taught to play. That always has a dark side. Whenever you're packing your emotions down, whenever you're avoiding, whenever you're not. Not putting up boundaries that protect you. Yes, you're hurting yourself, but then also the emotional reaction to always avoiding and packing down your feelings, it erupts.

Lance Allred [00:39:19] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] In ways that hurts other people. That is, it hurts everyone when you're not integrated.

Lance Allred [00:39:24] That is the. That is the quintessential symptom of nice guy.

John Dehlin [00:39:28] Yeah.

Lance Allred [00:39:30] Eruption.

John Dehlin [00:39:30] Yeah.

Lance Allred [00:39:31] That eventually, even on the court, as a teammate in the locker room, I was a nice guy and I played the role as a team captain. Nice guy Lance. Just dealing with it, dealing with it, taking it all in, being a nice guy. Until eventually I'd blow up and then people would say, oh, my gosh, Lance, the betrayal. Where did nice guy Lance go? Wow, you betrayed me. You hurt my feelings. And then to fall from the ladder so far from the pedestal, when you're the nice guy and you're trying to be the prince that I would have violent tempers never like physically violent, but like just, just explode. And I think it's an important point that you just brought up too. It doesn't have to be intentional, but just subconsciously. This is how we're taught to behave as nice people. I'm not saying people are intentionally trying to be dishonest, but just by the way that we're socially conditioned. And when I talk to people, attacking people's religion or their politics is the least effective way to help them. I go at culture. Culture is our biggest blind spot as humans. Having played in all the continents around the world, basketball in all these different cultures, learning to be a bridge as a team captain and learn to work and communicate with people, culture is our biggest blind spot because everyone and their mother in their respective cultures says my values are the best values. And so if everyone's saying that, then it's a wash. And everybody is saying that. Yes. So your culture, it really is just what your culture is, is your software operating system that's installed into your brain. Your brain is a hard drive. Your culture. Mormonism, let's say, is a Microsoft Japanese culture, could be Mac or Linux. And yet here we are trying to have conversations with people from different cultures being outraged that they're not operating and computing at the same values that we are. And then we say they obviously must be an inferior operating system. I am an Android user. IPhones suck. Software is ridiculous. We're saying the same things when we say America's number one, we're God's chosen country. It's our job to bring democracy to the world. Yet oxymoronically we say we also don't trust our government. Congress is corrupt. Congress doesn't do a good job. But still we need to package this up and go sell it to the rest of the world. Failing to see how we're doing this oxymoronic mental gymnastics with ourselves. We do this all the time.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] And I, and I think it's important. A lot of my listeners are either progressive Mormons or post Mormons. And a huge blindside I think for us post Mormons is that we, we now are developing our new culture of, of having left a religion. And it's very. Because we haven't been reflective on some of these founding principles, we can create a post Mormon culture where we think we're superior to people that were believers.

Lance Allred [00:42:51] Self lionization is a human condition across the self lionization is a human condition across the board, no matter what culture and self lionization.

John Dehlin [00:43:00] But just because we left a religious tradition that was Patriarchal or oppressive or, you know, exceptionalistic and, and based on non. Non truths. Let's just say that doesn't mean that the culture we move into is superior or that it's not misogynistic or, or not exceptionalistic as well. And so we have to, we have to be where we are and realize that we're still swimming in a lot of this conditioning, even if we've, even if we've left a religious tradition.

Lance Allred [00:43:37] Bring up the fourth principle of perseverance, which is discomfort of you. Saying for us to ever think that we truly arrive is only putting us back where we first started. Yeah, that. The Mormon system says we have the answer. If everyone just follows the system, everything will be great. But we live life long enough now to know that if it was the one and only way, everyone would have figured that out by now and we would all have confirmation bias. But for a group of people to move out of the. Into the unknown is a very scary thing to do. And so it is completely understandable for the human psychology to then say, well, okay, what are our values? Okay, let's make sure that we're able to confirm with each other that we're making the right decisions. And so therefore our values are in fact better than other people's values. So I know that this risk I took stepping into the unknown was worth it.

John Dehlin [00:44:33] And so ex Mormons can be aggressive, they can be arrogant, they can be judgmental, they can be patriarchal, Absolutely misogynistic, they can be racist, they can be homophobic. Yeah, they can be all the bad things, all the bad ex Mormons if they're not self reflective on the culture that they've brought into wherever they are.

Lance Allred [00:44:53] Yeah, I mean, quite often it's not, it's not across the board. I watch your comments and followers enough on Mormon stories, but you see enough that people, you have your culture of your immediate, your family culture, you have your religious or community culture, and then you have your geographical culture, and then you have your national culture that a lot of people are then are usually able to leave the family with a religious culture. But then, oh, if I'm not Mormon anymore, oh, but I'm still an American and we are the greatest country in the world. Oh, Lance, wait, you mean you're coming after that story too? Don't make me that uncomfortable. I don't want to have to really. But that's the whole thing. When I tell people, you can't just do the cube, change your thoughts, change your life. You have to rewire the entire Motherboard. You have to rip out the entire culture software and say, okay, that is Mormon thinking. So a good example to use. And I'll just try to explain this, that what you talked about, ex Mormons can be aggressive, proselytizing, preaching missionaries. We're conditioned to be missionaries. And so I see. I still. You still. You sound like. You sound like an angry Mormon now that you feel it's your job to bring the facts to people and convert them.

John Dehlin [00:46:18] Right.

Lance Allred [00:46:18] When I tell people the best way. I've never tried to convert anybody, but I have shut down anyone trying to challenge me for not being Mormon anymore or by simply saying I did everything I was supposed to do and I just wasn't happy, it blows their mind.

John Dehlin [00:46:38] Yeah.

Lance Allred [00:46:38] How do they respond to that? So to anyone listening, if you have family challenging you and you're trying to hit their facts with their facts, their scripture against their scripture, all that battling, if you really want to shut it down, you move out of the linear. Because here's the thing, John. Logic is not always reasonable. Logic is what our brain does to stay within our paradigm. Logic is how our brain connects dots to justify our reality, our paradigm, our religious beliefs, to have it make sense. Logic does not mean it's reasonable or rational. Logic can be truly flawed.

John Dehlin [00:47:19] Yeah.

Lance Allred [00:47:20] And so when you're trying to hit people with linear logic, who are linear logic thinkers, if you hit them then from the heart, with emotions, with feeling, and you just say, I wasn't happy, they short circuit. They don't know how to compute that, and it shuts down the conversation. And that's compassion, which is the third moving into compassion. Let's talk about compassion.

Personal Stories and Formative Influences

John Dehlin [00:47:43] Wait, really, really quickly.

Lance Allred [00:47:45] I know we're going all over the place.

John Dehlin [00:47:45] No, no, no, it's okay. I was just going to say one of my favorite quotes is you can't deconvert someone from a position with logic that they arrived at through emotion. Because most people arrive at their positions through emotional.

Lance Allred [00:47:59] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:48:00] Family ties, you know, life experiences.

Lance Allred [00:48:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] You know, conversion to a religion is an emotional and a social experience.

Lance Allred [00:48:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:48:09] And so you can't use logic to deconvert someone from Mormonism when their conversion was rooted ultimately in familial, social, and emotional stuff. But before we jump into that.

Lance Allred [00:48:19] Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:48:21] What I want to do is have you just tell us, take us through how you ended up deciding to write this book, and then I want to jump into the content of the book.

Lance Allred [00:48:29] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:48:30] So let's. So you. You quote.

Lance Allred [00:48:33] It's a really good quote. People ride to These positions through emotions, but then they solidify it with logic through confirmation bias. Confirmation bias, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:48:43] That reinforces the emotions.

Lance Allred [00:48:44] And so to attack their confirmation bias with other logic, you have to go undermine it with emotion.

John Dehlin [00:48:52] Yeah.

Lance Allred [00:48:52] You have to hit their original emotion with your emotion.

John Dehlin [00:48:55] Exactly.

Lance Allred [00:48:55] That's the only way you can actually have a real authentic.

John Dehlin [00:48:58] That's why you go to. You weren't happy.

Lance Allred [00:49:00] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:49:00] Because that's going from the logic to the.

Lance Allred [00:49:03] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:49:03] How do you argue with that? It wasn't making me happy. Right.

Lance Allred [00:49:06] And so, yeah, I love. That was a great point. So I retired from basketball as I was going through a divorce as a single dad. And the loss of a marriage and that sense of identity was more painful than the loss of the NBA dream. And we so badly look for podcasts and cheat sheets and shortcuts to bypass pain. Irony is pain. Heartbreak is our greatest teacher. And so this book, though, I have my seven principles of perseverance. It's a devotion, it's not a system. And they're just things that I learned from myself, but also great mentors and coaches that I admired, the traits that they had. Perseverance versus stubbornness. Perseverance is the ability to adapt. Stubbornness is the inability to adapt. I had lots of coaches who were very stubborn, very few who were perseverant. And those are the coaches I draw from. That helped me come with the backbone of this book. But as I was writing, as I was going through the process of a divorce, trying to figure out what am I going to do? How am I going to provide for my kid? I can't just retire and become a teacher or a basketball coach because there's not enough money to be. I can't even buy a home. Who's going to pay for my kids childcare when I'm coaching kids? It just didn't make sense. So I was like, well, I hear there's this rumor you can get paid to do motivational speaking. So let's give that a shot. And flying by the seat of my pants, having no idea what the hell I was doing, I figured it out somehow, some way. And once what what is your polygamy? Came out, that really catapulted the new career. And the publisher as sounds true, McMillan heard the TEDx talk and they approached me. We began to have some conversations about what's a. What's a book? And I said, we can do the principles of perseverance. They said, well, we love the principles of perseverance, but you know, I think this would be a Good time for you to really talk about the challenges from your extreme experiences of masculinity, from polygamy and professional sports. Because part of my saying, but from the American standard, there is no more alpha position than the athlete. Because politicians, rock stars, actors, all show up on the front row to watch the athlete perform, but also improvise. Rock stars rarely improvise. They have a set rehearsal. Politicians definitely don't improvise. Actors have scripts. The athlete is constantly improvising. And so that's why it's inspiring for even other alphas to go watch them. And so living in those extreme experiences sounds true. Felt that I had earned a rite of passage to even be in a position to start this conversation, this uncomfortable conversation about toxic masculinity. And how are we as human and man going to evolve? It's one thing for people to say we humans evolved into pack animals as though that's the ceiling. Evolution means there's constant progression. Where are we going to go from here?

John Dehlin [00:52:38] Right. Yeah.

Lance Allred [00:52:39] That is the next step. And that's the question.

John Dehlin [00:52:41] And what was clear to me as I read, you know, as I was reading your book, is that you've had to do a lot of personal work.

Lance Allred [00:52:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:52:48] And even as I talked to you just this morning, this stuff is. You're not looking at notes. You're not. This is stuff you've internalized.

Lance Allred [00:52:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:56] And I. I really do feel like as. As, you know, transformational as Brene Brown has been and as world famous as she now has been, you know, and I'm a fan of Eckhart Tolle and, you know, Oprah and. And Cheryl Strayed and so many kind of. Of the wisdom teachers, Dalai Lama, Thich Nhat Hanh. Like, I'm always looking for people who I feel like have not only gained wisdom, but have tried to use it to really transform their lives and have internalized the principles. And not to ever set anyone up on a pedestal, but I feel like you really have made a conscious effort to internalize the principles in this book and to try and transform your life as a result. And to me, that's more inspirational than somebody who just.

Lance Allred [00:53:43] Thank you, John. Well, I'm a snob like you in that it's very hard to inspire me because anyone can regurgitate Wayne Dyer, Eckhart Tolle.

John Dehlin [00:53:54] Right.

Lance Allred [00:53:54] But have you actually paid the toll?

John Dehlin [00:53:57] Yeah.

Lance Allred [00:53:58] And you are someone that has.

John Dehlin [00:53:59] Well, I'm trying to.

Lance Allred [00:54:00] Well, the thing is.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] And this is part of it.

Lance Allred [00:54:02] It's part of it.

John Dehlin [00:54:03] Yeah.

Lance Allred [00:54:03] But the existential crisis that you were brave enough to go through in such a public, discriminatory light that death and rebirth of the Phoenix Energy that you had to go through was very inspiring. And that's the peaceful warrior that emerged from that. That's what's so threatening to people. It's not your brilliant intellect that threatens people. It's the size of your heart and the toll that was paid because leaders who haven't paid the toll, who politic their way or again regurgitate wisdom or scripture because they're. They're fluent in the tongue, they'll always be threatened by peaceful warriors who've actually walked through the fire. And that's why I've always been able to admire you and appreciative of the journey you've been able to take, because that is what people need to see. It's one thing to say, it's another thing to actually do, and more importantly, live. And I love Eckhart Tolle, Wayne Dyer, and all those people. But there is a truth, whatever you want to call it. When the new alpha male came out last year, the same day that Covid came, and everything was shut down energetically, it was right on time. Commercially, maybe not so much. But I had someone say to me, I love how you built on the shoulders of Joseph Campbell. And I told them. I've never read Joseph Campbell, that when you go through enough heartbreak and enough pain and you get your false identity and ego and the illusion of masculinity out of the way, and you're so vulnerable and exposed that you just let yourself die. Whether you want to call it spirit or universe or energy or whatever, you then put yourself up. Or genius, as the Greeks would call it, tapping into genius. I'm not a genius. No one's a genius. But are they able to get out of their own head and tap into genius? That I was able to speak similar truths from Joseph Campbell, even though I've never read Joseph Campbell. This does not mean that I. It means that this isn't about me. It means that once Lance got out of the way, once I let go of being important and special, I was then able to tap in to truth, universal truth, not mediated to me from someone else.

John Dehlin [00:56:49] Yeah. And I have to. I have to say Joseph Campbell's. I think it's called the Hero with a Thousand Faces. He has a series with Bill Moyers where they talk about the hero's journey.

Lance Allred [00:57:00] He's the inspiration for Star Wars. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:02] So many other things. And I think he relies a lot on Carl Jung.

Lance Allred [00:57:05] Yeah. One of the original he built on Carl. Yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:57:08] And so it's great stuff. I. So I. And I loved that quote you gave that you had to let your story die for you.

Lance Allred [00:57:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:19] To live. Right.

Lance Allred [00:57:20] Either I can die with my stories or my story can die.

John Dehlin [00:57:22] Yeah, I love that. So let me. So transitioning now just to this book, one of the hurdles I had to get over is even the use of the term alpha. Now, I know that you said that some women chose the title, not you.

Lance Allred [00:57:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] And there's probably, you know, whenever a publisher chooses a title, they're trying to. It's like clickbait. They're trying to get people to look at it or think about it or

Lance Allred [00:57:46] like the book, the subtle art or not giving a fuck.

John Dehlin [00:57:48] Right, Exactly.

Lance Allred [00:57:49] Brilliant. Clickbait. Big. Yeah, brilliant title.

John Dehlin [00:57:51] And I hear it's a pretty good book, too.

Lance Allred [00:57:52] Pretty good book.

John Dehlin [00:57:53] So.

Lance Allred [00:57:55] But.

John Dehlin [00:57:55] But you also do use the term in the book. You know, if you really want to be an alpha, here's how to do it. Right. And. And what I. What I've had to do is like, wait a minute. I don't want to be an alpha. Like, when I think alpha male, I think of, like, the head gorilla with the gray back that's, like, dominant over all the gorillas. And like, I'm thinking, I don't want to be an alpha. I want to be an egalitarian, you know, like one of many peers with everybody being as part of a council where we make decisions together. But even just the use of the term alpha implies a person who's over everybody else. So help us understand how you're using the term alpha in a way that doesn't turn us off.

Lance Allred [00:58:36] Yeah. So again, I'll go back to what I reiterated. I'll reiterate. Alpha is the act or doing or the being and living a difficult way that most people are unable to live. Meaning that, again, are you able to extend compassion and have an intimate, real conversation with someone who is breaking down and that makes you uncomfortable because it's bringing up your own insecurities. That's a very difficult skill to learn. So alpha, as I'm defining it, redefining new alpha, man or woman, is someone who is willing to step out of their comfort zones and do difficult things that they were not culturally taught to do.

John Dehlin [00:59:29] What's the root of the word alpha? What does it mean?

Lance Allred [00:59:31] Is it new? Alpha is just one, the first letter in the Alphabet. Alpha.

John Dehlin [00:59:35] Okay, one, one.

Lance Allred [00:59:37] Alpha. In Greek, alpha is a is the first letter. So you're the you're the first. And so by that definition, you are blazing a trail, maybe just for your family, for your children, for your posterity to live a new way. So alpha doesn't mean have to mean you have to become president or CEO. It means just being brave enough to carve out a new path for even just yourself.

John Dehlin [01:00:05] Yeah. So tell me if it's okay to. When. When we hear the word Alpha, to think, you know, like Christ talked about being born again.

Lance Allred [01:00:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:15] Like Richard Rohr talks about the first half of life in the second half of life. Almost. Eckhart Tolle talks about an awakening. Awakening, enlightenment. It's. It's not that you're enlightened. It's not that you're awakened. It's that you've had this rebirth of consciousness where you want to be born again with a new. A newness of who you are and who you want to be and to do things fundamentally differently. And how then the culture within which you were raised.

Lance Allred [01:00:46] Yes. That would be the sixth principle of perseverance, which is transformation. Or at the corporate level, I call it being a leader of your own life. And you hear me use that term. And in my TEDx talk, what is your polygamy? Learning to be a leader of your own life, which is, I decide for myself my metrics of success, my metrics of happiness, that once you have explored all corners of a system or been expelled from a system, that you realize, okay, there's nothing for me here. Am I going to slowly die because I'm afraid of abandonment? Fear of abandonment is usually our greatest driver at the human level. 90% of humans operate from fear, and abandonment is usually the root of that fear. And so we conform and we neglect. We abandon essential parts of ourselves so we won't be abandoned. And so in transformation, you are being willing to step out and be brave enough to say, all right, I now decide for myself my metrics of success. And my metric, John, is one word, clarity. Clarity of being. And clarity comes by asking questions, asking myself hard questions. And your philosopher archetype that you and I both share. Systems hate philosophers because the philosopher is the one always asking the question. The philosopher really is the moral compass of humanity, saying, well, how is this moving humanity along to a greater purpose? Systems say, nope, stay inside this box. The system and everything will be safe. So your philosopher archetype was triggering people from a long time ago, well before you got excommunicated. But that philosopher archetype is now what is continually allowing you to step into this alchemical fire the phoenix energy of death and rebirth, of being transformed, asking every time and being able to let go and surrender many iterations of who you were. Even from the time that you were excommunicated to now. I can imagine there were two or three other identities that you tried to fit into that you've had to furthermore let go as well. Because once you step into that transformational process, it becomes a never ending part of your life. As you move toward clarity, being able to let go more and more of these constricting, limiting boundaries that are just comfort zones. Comfort zones are just limited. They're just illusions that we humans glob onto to feel like we're safe. When really what the athlete teaches when we step into that surrender, surrendering identities of who we are. And surrender is the fifth principle of perseverance. When an athlete is in the zone, when he's on fire. When we watch Jordan light at the Trailblazers in 1993, averaging 40 a game in the finals, then his brain was off. Meaning when you're aiming your shots and you're enough of an athlete to know this, when you aim and you're thinking, you miss your shot. Thoughts that when you're just in your body and you are flowing with life, you're flowing with the game, you're responding, not reacting. You're both masculine and feminine. Masculine is shooting the ball, feminine is passing the ball, right, left handed. If I'm always shooting the ball, I become easy to guard because I'm predictable. If I'm always passing, I'm predictable. Not just in basketball, but in life. So the trick is, is getting heart centered in your body, trusting your body and its intuition and its instinct. The body is very intelligent. It has just as much electromagnetic energy pulsating as the brain does. Yet the brain in our hubris says I am the only important part. The body says that's not true. I am just as, if not more important. And so that's what the athlete is teaching us when we're in the zone. I can tell you those games when I was on fire, I wasn't even analyzing. Sure, I had mental memory recall, recognizing this familiar structure, set or defense, knowing what is going to happen. But that then allows my body to recall a muscle memory and trust and flow with it. That is that when someone has stepped into a zone, when you watch your favorite athlete, baseball, football, basketball, when they're in the zone, they are 100% in their body, their brain has shut off. And when that is true, you've surrendered that it's not even Lance doesn't even exist anymore in that moment. That's bliss. That's euphoria. That's enlightenment. That's ecstasy, whatever you want to call it. Because my brain is shut off and the ego is no longer saying, this is who I am. This is my story. These are my merit badges. These are my trauma. This is how I identify myself. This is. I'm the victim. People need to feed into that. All that goes away, and everything is just quiet. And you're flowing with life. That is the lesson that the athlete teaches. Yeah. Ironically, you have all the CEOs sitting on the front rows saying, oh, great job, Kevin Durant. You made the instinct to play from the broken play. You went and made the home run play. Good job. The next day, they'll go and hamstring their employees and say, well, what are the stats say? As athletes, stats inform us, but they don't drive us. Again, we're the. We improvise. That's what inspires people. That's what athletes do, that you can have all the information. But that's all why everyone freaked out with COVID too. Because we thought we had enough stats that we thought we were in enough control that we made the world our bitch. But then suddenly, like, oh, wait, we actually don't have control. Oh, my gosh, I'm gonna lose my mind. How am I gonna make sense of this? I gotta come up with a crazy conspiracy theory to say, this is what's happening, rather than just saying, we're all here for a ride, man. Mother Earth is in charge, and we're just flowing with life, and we have a choice to either resist it and keep getting in trouble and get benched like I did many times as an athlete, or I can get on and just ride the wave.

The Four Principles of Perseverance Introduced

John Dehlin [01:07:23] I love it. Okay, so now that we've kind of learned about your background, talked about what you mean by alpha, and kind of painted the picture for a new vision, at least begun to paint the vision for kind of a new vision of what it might be to be a man or masculinity redefined, which I love. Just that you're starting with an integration of the male and the female that we're all like, I have a. I have a child who identifies as transgender and as gender non binary. I haven't really talked about this publicly because my child hasn't, up until now, given me permission to. Recently, my child gave me permission. So this child identifies as. As gender non binary. They don't use he, she, or he or she pronouns they use they, them pronouns. And they. They've had me, so I'm going to refer to it, my oldest child, Adrian, with what you guys will think of as plural pronouns. So they, them, because that's the pronouns. They are not comfortable identifying with male or female pronouns because they don't feel like the gender of man or the gender of woman fits for. For them. And this is really, really hard stuff because men feel threatened when the male gender is threatened, and women can feel threatened when the female gender is threatened. And my child isn't trying to threaten either gender. My child is just trying to identify in a way that they feel comfortable, and they don't feel comfortable being called a woman, fully or male. And I'm, you know, I'm very much probably a typical man in many ways to where this. This took me some time to really feel okay with. But one of the things they tried to help me understand is that gender is a spectrum.

Lance Allred [01:09:22] Yes, it's fluid, super.

John Dehlin [01:09:23] It's fluid in that it can change, but it's also a spectrum in that there's nobody. That's what is. Is it a. Is it a female to cry? Okay, but wait, you know, men that cry, right. And men cry, and it's healthy to cry. Well, is it. Is it male to be a provider? No. There's plenty of women that are great providers. Is it male to be good in math? No. There are plenty of women that are good in math. You know, is it male to be into science? No. There's plenty of women that are phenomenal scientists. Is it female to be a nurturer? No. There's plenty of men that are phenomenal nurturers, and there's some moms who aren't great nurturers. And so you. And is it long hair? No. Is it color of clothes? No. Like, what is gender? This is something that's really uncomfortable for us.

Lance Allred [01:10:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:08] But it's actually really profound because it is. Gender can be these boxes that really constrain us from being our full selves. And the truth is there. The wise people that I know believe that men and women often share in the full spectrum of what it means to be male or female or other. There are some traits that are just human traits that you really can't assign to a gender.

Lance Allred [01:10:35] No.

John Dehlin [01:10:35] And so I just wanted to say I love it that you're talking about part of the new alpha male embraces his feminine energy or his feminine qualities. And that's such. I would imagine that if you said that in a. In an NBA locker room, or at least maybe five or 10 years ago, there might have been some mocking or, or some, some pushback on a, on a, on an alpha male saying, hey, I'm embracing my feminine side at all, right?

Lance Allred [01:11:04] Yeah, but that is where I have the privilege and again, I've earned the right to as an athlete to be able to have people understand through sports metaphors that again, if I am hyper masculine on the basketball court or in life, if I'm always puffing my chest, driving around the Harleys looking for confrontation, trying to emasculate other people because I'm afraid someone's going to do it to me, I become predictable. And the universe does not suffer one dimensional folk very well. Whether it's a basketball court or life, you have to play it like a game. You have to give yourself as many coping skills and resources as possible. I'm right handed, but I actually learned to score more with my left hand as a professional to extend my professional career. It made me hard to guard. Which way is he going to go? Right hand is masculine, left hand is feminine or right brain. That's where the artist is. And so therefore that metaphor applies to life as well. People didn't know which shoulder to guard me, where I was going to go in the post. Same thing in life. Is Lance going to do something hyper masculine right now or is he going to be very passive and gentle and let life just come to him and flow this time? And so being able to speak in those metaphors helps people understand that we have to have masculine and feminine in that if we're hyper masculine. Hyper feminine. Another simple metaphor. The earth is half light, half dark at all times. If the earth was always in sunlight, it would die. You have to have the night, you have to have the day. You have to have black and white. You have to have both masculine and feminine to be balanced. But that's where systems, corporations, patriarchy and religion throws us off. You have to be one dimensional. Wear the white shirt, wear the smile on your face. That's them actually throwing you out of your power, out of your balance.

John Dehlin [01:13:01] Also. Very binary, right? Very binary or another.

Lance Allred [01:13:04] Absolutely.

Accountability and Integrity as Core Principles

John Dehlin [01:13:05] It can't be two things.

Lance Allred [01:13:06] Can't be two things at once. But yes you can. But again, that's what the athlete is displaying. Let's talk about Jordan again. Very masculine when he pushed off Byron Russell for the game winning shot in 1998 against the Utah Jazz. Very feminine when he passed off to Steve Kerr and John Paxton for their respective NBA titles.

John Dehlin [01:13:22] Not just that, in that documentary you mentioned, he Gets emotional. He does, he does at several points. And you realize that, yeah, men can

Lance Allred [01:13:30] cry, men can be emotional athletes, extremely emotional. Yeah, we're very emotional people. And yet because we're afraid to actually feel safe, that's why we do crazy stuff when we retire, drug addiction, violence or whatnot. Because we just don't have a safe space. Because again, a lot of women aren't comfortable with their heart centered space that they think, I'm attracted to a hyper masculine man, he has to be hyper masculine. I can't have any vulnerability from my man because I need to know that he's still going to put food on the table. So the point you talked about, some women are even threatened by binary, by non defining genders because it also is threatening their story of I just have to be pretty or a house mom and my life will be taken care of. That's the American dream. But the way your daughter's living is threatening to that system. Child, you're talking to your child, your child.

John Dehlin [01:14:27] I'm sorry, I've had to, and I still get it wrong, but I'm sorry,

Lance Allred [01:14:30] yes, the way your child is living is very threatening to that system because so even women who supported Trump, you on one hand, you're like, why would women support this guy? Because he was a bastion or at least pretended to be of a protector of this old American way of gender roles that I was raised to be an alpha man, she was raised to be a pretty girl, we get married and the system remains intact. But the way your child living and us even having these kind of conversations then is challenging people to say, well, I put all my eggs into this one basket. It you tell me I have to develop other skills now, I can't be one dimensional. That's really scary.

John Dehlin [01:15:19] Yeah.

Lance Allred [01:15:20] And here's the thing, compassion. Let's talk about compassion. Third principle, we can shame people for not being as quick as we have been forced to be to move into this way. But shame has never once brought about true systemic change. Shame has forced people to be publicly contrite, but then they fester in the dark and then they wait for a chance to get their revenge. Real compassion is being able to say to a man who's terrified that he was taught to be a coal miner and those jobs are going, this isn't going to give me any other skills. And we can say, yeah, now you know how it feels. We can shame them or we can say, yeah, it's really scary and we got your back and we're going to help you learn Other skills. We're going to be here. We're going to work with you and coast through all this. Compassion is so powerful. Compassion is probably the hardest principle to live, but here's why. Compassion. I'll gonna give a couple examples of compassion. So when we have.

John Dehlin [01:16:21] Lance. Let me ask you.

Lance Allred [01:16:22] Go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:16:22] What I would love to do just to provide a tiny bit of structure to this last part. Let me just. Some of the. Let me read some of you. You've already mentioned most of these.

Lance Allred [01:16:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:32] But I'm gonna. I'm gonna call out the book again. The book is the New Alpha Male how to Win the Game when the Rules Are Changing by Lance Allred. And you've already called out a lot of the principles here, but what I want to do is kind of systematically go through the one.

Lance Allred [01:16:49] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:16:49] And so we're going to repeat some of the ones you've already talked about, but I want to set up. And we talked about this before. And I want to set up some of the, let's say, toxic masculine traits.

Lance Allred [01:17:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:01] And then set up your principles as counters to.

Lance Allred [01:17:04] Right.

John Dehlin [01:17:04] Some of these toxic masculine traits that we learned not just as Mormon men, but as humans, human men, you know.

Lance Allred [01:17:11] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:17:12] And. And so what I'll do is I'll. You've already mentioned these, but if you go to the table of contents here, some of the main principles you advocate are accountability, integrity, compassion, discomfort, acceptance, transformation, and then forgiveness and gratitude.

Lance Allred [01:17:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:32] And so what we did is we tried to think about what the. The opposites of those words that would correlate with toxic masculinity and then talk about what that looks like in a less healthy form of masculinity. And then how we can look at it with. With some of these principles that come from your book. Okay. Right. So when. When we start, I, I kind of asked you what would the opposite of accountability be? And what we came up with is this sort of thing that you associate with men, women, sometimes with athletes, kind of this false vibrato.

Lance Allred [01:18:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:04] And I'm a man. Or it's. It's sports and it's physical stuff and big trucks and muscles and lifting weights, swearing. And then it's also like you. You call it stonewalling, but, like packing it down. I. I don't have feelings. I'm a man. I'm strong. So.

Lance Allred [01:18:22] So talk about that.

John Dehlin [01:18:23] And then what the counter to that would be.

Lance Allred [01:18:25] The absence of self reflection.

John Dehlin [01:18:27] Yeah.

Lance Allred [01:18:28] Is the opposite of accountability is what.

John Dehlin [01:18:31] So describe that man.

Lance Allred [01:18:33] So a toxic masculine male, Mormon or otherwise. Would be, hey, I'm just following the system. If I just follow the system, everything will be fine. I don't want to ask myself tough questions. And if anyone threatens the system and threatens my identity, I'm not going to again allow myself to ask ask questions. I'm going to attack anything that scares me rather than say, with accountability. Why am I scared? What story is being brought up? Accountability? A deep level is self honesty. Being able to look at yourself in a mirror and dig deep and say, what are my motivating factors? Usually it's fear. What's driving me? Fear. Fear that I will be abandoned. Feared. If I'm not alpha enough, my wife will leave me, my community will leave me. And so therefore I behave in over the top ways, Aggressive, aggressive ways to establish my dominance because I fear that someone else will then try to dominate me, which again, is patriarchy and scarcity. So being able to have uncomfortable conversations with yourself and check your stories, check your projections, that is accountability at a deep level.

John Dehlin [01:19:50] So give us some examples of how you might do that or in your life, when you've done it or other people.

Lance Allred [01:19:56] Talk about in the book again, in that moment.

John Dehlin [01:19:59] Yeah, how do you learn accountability in that moment?

Lance Allred [01:20:01] When I nearly committed suicide, nearly jumped out of a window, and I was recovering for a couple of days, it was okay. I have this deep fear that I'm not worthy of love, that God is angry with me, that if I'm not on the top of the hill, no one can love me. Do I know this story to actually be true? No, I don't. It's just a narrative. It's just a perspective. And in that moment, I said to myself, I can die with my stories or my stories can die. And so a Mormon man who's probably in a crisis of faith right now, you can ask, what is the fear if all of these, all of this history that's coming up, all this research is in fact true? What is the fear that's coming up? The fear is then, oh, wait, if I don't have the one true church, that means my team is in the best team. And if I'm not on the best team, that means I'm not extra special. And if I'm not extra special, that means I'm not worthy of love or God's grace or heaven, all those stories. And if I'm not worthy of love, that means I will be abandoned. And I want that. Fear of abandonment usually is the root of why people behave in these aggressive ways or systemic ways. They want to belong Somewhere and they're afraid of losing that belonging.

John Dehlin [01:21:30] And if I can extend it to people who have already lost their faith, it's like, well, I was that. I was the Peter priesthood, priesthood holder, you know, patriarch of my home. Now I don't know what I believe anymore. I may not even believe in God.

Lance Allred [01:21:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:46] Now I don't know if I believe in anything. I don't know my identity is, what my morals are, what my values are. And I think there are a lot of men that are just saying, who, who am I now?

Lance Allred [01:21:55] And I am. Here's the thing. I know this sounds trite. Any man who's in this position right now that John just described, I've been there many times and actually I am so excited for you. Stepping into the unknown, that's Alpha. Doing something that's terrifying and saying, I don't even know who I am anymore. Once you let go of being important, the world then becomes a magical place because you're no longer constricted to rules and laws of belonging. That the world becomes much more rich, much more fascinating, curious, entertaining, absurd, all those things. The whole gamut of ranging emotions. And therefore life becomes richer. And that's the price we pay for a rich life. Stepping out into the unknown, letting go of the comfort zones. We were not born to be caged within our comfort zones, but letting them go is very difficult to do. So any man who was there, I can tell you I have come to that train station so many times and I'm sure I will continue to go back to that train station until the day I die, asking, who am I and what legacy do I really want to leave behind? That is a beautiful place to be in. A place that we're taught to fear from our cultural upbringing, where we're taught that there is someone else who will mediate between us and the universe, or creation, or spirit, creator, whatever you want to call it, anything. The, the mainframe of the, you know, of the computer grid or simulation theory, whatever.

John Dehlin [01:24:00] Yeah.

Lance Allred [01:24:01] I mean, people ask me what I am. To go off on a tangent, I just say I'm a spiritual agnostic. The end of the day, the great. My favorite Greek myth is when Odysseus was stranded on the rocks and Neptune had wiped out his entire fleet. And he finally just said, fine, kill me. And Neptune, the God of the sea, just said, silly human, I wasn't trying to kill you. I was simply trying to tell you you can do nothing without the gods. So the Greek myths are just parables for our own internal archetypal narratives and us thinking that we're in control of everything is where we create chaos in our lives. And so I'm agnostic in that I will never again believe that I can think, I can put God or anything inside of a box. I don't know. And I don't think. I don't think our human brains are even capable of processing how massive this universe is. I think our brains would explode. But I do believe it is a magical place because I choose to dance in the unknown. And so I went off on a tangent there.

Mythology, Stubbornness, and the Need to Be Right

John Dehlin [01:25:16] I'm going to say what I. What I. I loved everything you just said. And what, what really stuck out to me was this idea that we used to think that masculinity meant to be certain.

Lance Allred [01:25:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:29] And to know. And you're handed this identity without any self exploration. Yeah. And to be that identity that was handed to you.

Lance Allred [01:25:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:25:38] And then you avoid uncertainty or fear by just filling that role.

Lance Allred [01:25:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:43] And what you're saying is. And that was where you got emotional. To be alpha is to say, I'm. I'm afraid and I don't know who I am.

Lance Allred [01:25:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:51] And I'm going to go on that journey, that terrifying journey of self introspection where I begin by admitting I'm. I don't know who I am. I'm weak, I'm fragile. And now I'll just try and figure out who I am and what I am and what I really care about. That's. That's. There's a. There's a toxic masculine perspective that. That's weak. That you're not sure. You're not certain. You're not strong and confident. Yeah. You're being humble and you're being curious and you're. You're being willing to go on this journey that, that is a journey that you don't know where it's going to end. And you got emotional at that point. I did.

Lance Allred [01:26:30] You're bringing up the toxic masculinity of stubbornness that a lot of people think stubbornness is a virtue.

John Dehlin [01:26:35] You.

Lance Allred [01:26:36] Stubbornness is the inability to adapt.

John Dehlin [01:26:38] Yeah.

Lance Allred [01:26:39] It's not. The strongest or smartest that survive.

John Dehlin [01:26:41] Yeah.

Lance Allred [01:26:42] Is those who are most willing to adapt. You know what's really weak? Being unwilling to adapt.

John Dehlin [01:26:48] Yeah. Because. Because things that don't. Things that don't bend break.

Lance Allred [01:26:51] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:26:52] Right. And that makes it weak.

Lance Allred [01:26:53] Exactly. And so when people want to hold, oh, I got my system. I'm 100% sure this is the way and they will die on their sword as though that's some Sort of noble, horrible thing to do. It's like, no, it just sounds like you were too afraid to step into the unknown. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:12] And sometimes ex Mormons are just as certain as, as orthodox Mormons.

Lance Allred [01:27:17] This is true.

John Dehlin [01:27:18] And, and sometimes we're wrong, or a lot of times we're wrong. And so my thing needs to be flexible as well.

Lance Allred [01:27:23] My reasoning says if I was wrong before, I'll probably be wrong again.

John Dehlin [01:27:26] Absolutely.

Lance Allred [01:27:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:28] Okay. The second sort of integrity form of toxic masculinity that we identified is this, this tendency to blame others, to shame others, to be ruled by guilt, and then to project on other people. Now you've already addressed some of this, but let's just hit it again.

Lance Allred [01:27:49] That's, that's an accountability. That's the first principle. That when you are so threatened by someone else taking a journey that is different from yours, it threatens your little rose colored lens of life. That you need other people doing exactly what you're doing to confirm to yourself that you're making the right choices because you're afraid, because you're living in a cause and effect world rather than a decision, a healthy, decision based world. Mormons, Mormon culture, broadly speaking, is a cause and effect world. X plus Y equals Z. I did this. This is the result. God is either blessing me or punishing me. If I didn't get my blessing, God's either testing me rather than as a basketball player making the NBA. It was hard work, dedication, some talent, some skill. Also, some things just had to go my way. Luck and timing. And if I'm making the best decisions possible, hopefully the odds go my way. Rather than saying, oh, the immediate outcome was bad, I made a bad decision. No. Just because you ran a red light and didn't get hit, does that mean it was a good decision?

John Dehlin [01:29:01] No.

Lance Allred [01:29:03] Just because you invested in the stock and it went to zero, does that mean it was a bad decision? No. We tend to measure our quality of life and our value of ourselves on immediate outcomes. That's what I mean by being cause and effective world that the Mormon general culture lives in. And so because everything is so cause and effect, we want to see everyone around us having the same effects to confirm that we're making the right choices, that our life is indeed the best way to live. And so when someone else deviates from it and we are so insecure that we need everything to be black and white, it then disrupts the narrative. And I don't want to have to look at it and say, well, why would they even be unhappy? How could this not be happy for them. Them. I'm just going to shame them and say they're a sinner, they didn't have enough faith. I don't want to be introspective. I don't want to go there. Those are some basic toxic examples of toxic masculinity in the Mormon system.

John Dehlin [01:30:07] And just all. I want to bring it to ex Mormons too, because sometimes ex Mormons think they're enlightened because they left a religion.

Lance Allred [01:30:12] Right.

John Dehlin [01:30:12] Ex Mormons can be justice, black and white.

Lance Allred [01:30:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:30:15] Just as judgmental, just as dogmatic and like you said earlier, kind of the missionary zeal.

Lance Allred [01:30:20] Yeah. You know, just as they're still computing the world from a Mormon lens.

John Dehlin [01:30:24] Right.

Lance Allred [01:30:25] Just as much as that's going to trigger them. I'm sorry, but it is. If you're seeing the world in a black and white way like that. Yeah. You're still seeing it in a cause and effect Mormon perspective.

John Dehlin [01:30:35] Yeah.

Lance Allred [01:30:35] That everything is black and white. Yeah. And so that is. Yeah, that's. That's right. For any. When you keep operating from absolutes like that, life is going to continue to kick your ass. It just is. Life is a trickster. The universe has a sense of humor that whenever you think you're sure of something, it's just going to pull the rug out from under you. It's going to find ways to continue to do that. And so that's a good point that you bring up. Yeah.

Shaming, Judgment, and the Integrity Principle

John Dehlin [01:31:07] Okay. The next one is shaming, judgment and aggressiveness, which I think. Well, I guess you talk about integrity, right?

Lance Allred [01:31:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:18] So now the opposite of integrity. So integrity, we talked about this already.

Lance Allred [01:31:21] Integrity is disingenuity, disintegration. Integrity is again, me living basketball player on the court, nice guy off the court. Integrity, not living in. Integrity is changing your personality depending on who's in the room. If this person has money or this person doesn't have money, what this tells people, if you're changing your personality depending on who's in the room, it tells people that are watching and noticing that you will throw anyone under the bus for your own short term gain, that you come first. And then people say, I don't trust that. I don't feel safe with that. My boss, I know my boss. So when I would see coaches do that, it let me know that I'm just, I'm just a stat to them. I'm just a stepping stone for them, for them to get their next job. They don't care about me because they'll be whoever they have to be in Any room to get what they want. And then people say, well, Lance, what about the people who do that and play politics and get the job promotion empty calories because they have burned so many bridges on their way to get there, they don't have any intimacy with anyone to share it with. And so then they're going to go for that next trophy, buy that new boat, buy that new plane, because they still feel empty inside because they have no real intimacy to share it with. They think those next trophies, as we were taught in our western society, is what's going to fill them, but it's not. And so in the Mormon context, when we see Mormon leaders or women, men or women who are nice to us to our face when they go home and they're abusive to their kids at home, that's not integrity at all. They're not the same person in every room that they walk into. And here's a promise I'll make to anyone with integrity. If you operate with integrity, being the same person in every room that you walk into, you will get to where you need to go. Maybe not where you want to go, but where you need to go. And more importantly, the right people will integrate with you. Integrity is the integration of all aspects of who you are. Owning. This is me, this is Lance. And there's the power, that vulnerability. You now become bulletproof. Because if I show the world this is my colors, this is my heart, these are all the things that I am. I'm emotional, I'm a writer. I like woo woo stuff. I study with the Native Americans, I practice with them. All these things that people think, oh, you can't let people know. That's weird stuff. Stuff. But because it's open, no one can blackmail me. No one can extort me.

John Dehlin [01:33:57] Right.

Lance Allred [01:33:58] No one can expose me because I am integrated. And once I integrate with all of who I am, the right people, then integrate with me.

John Dehlin [01:34:06] I love that.

Lance Allred [01:34:07] That's the beauty of integrity.

John Dehlin [01:34:09] I love that talk again. You know, there's this dynamic where those of us who have experienced the disciplinary council and this just came up with the excommunication Helfer Parker. I learned this when I.

Lance Allred [01:34:19] That's a harsh story. That's a tough story.

John Dehlin [01:34:20] Yeah. And when I. When I Learned about the September 6th, I remember Margaret Toscano describing her excommunication as being raped by Care Bears. And these are trigger warning. That's a, that's an offensive term.

Lance Allred [01:34:33] Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [01:34:34] But the idea is these men would sit there in a council of 15 men, say, we love you, how's your family? And now we're going to do one of the most, most psychologically and spiritually violent things that we could ever do to you. And we're gonna smile and say I love you as we do it. What is that and how does that relate to?

Lance Allred [01:34:54] Absolutely. Masculinity, that is, that is very toxic. Masculinity, that is, that is quintessential nice guy. I'm gonna smile at you and act like I actually care about you, but really I am going to destroy you for my own gain. I'm going to rape you for my own sense of power. Whether it's a physical rape or a spiritual or emotional rape, those are real things. And what that woman described was an emotional and spiritual raping. And when someone's raped it's not really for pleasure, it's for power and dominance. A person wants to feel power. So this poor woman was raped within front of all these men so they could feel powerful. And that is, that is someone. When people aren't in integrity that they feel so off balance, they're not heart centered that they feel anyone operating in any sense of challenging my authority, I have to go and castrate it right now or rape it to put it in its place. Because I have other parts of me that we all know. Those men probably watch porn and do other things like most men do, but they're going to put on this veneer and be happy and peaceful. But then once it's come time to challenge authority, no, they're going to take you out because again one, they don't have any accountability because they are afraid of any, any self reflection, any internal questions. That question why do, why am I even feeling threatened by this woman? Why would I even feel threatened enough to want to excommunicate somebody? That's a great question to ask. Why am I being so triggered that I feel I have to excommunicate someone? That if everyone could ask that question, no one would be excommunicated because it would force people to actually sit and address what fears within them are being brought up that they are uncomfortable with if they're not true. Integrity is. Yeah, that again because we're living in such superficial veneer world where we're wearing the suit and ties and everything's perfect on the surface that I'm so off balance that anything throwing me off my balance, I have to publicly humiliate and alienate and have the rest of the community alienate as well because we can keep our one dimensional relationships and veneers intact. Keep it clean. That's what one dimensional relationships are.

John Dehlin [01:37:36] Yeah. So integrity then is to be integrated

Lance Allred [01:37:40] in all aspects of who you are able to have real intimate conversations. People who excommunicate people are not able to have intimate conversations. Yeah, because instead of saying someone who wanted to have a really intimate someone, a conversation with you, John, who was intimate with themselves would have been able to sit down. John, what are these questions you're having and what fears are they bringing up? Oh yeah, that makes me scared too. Or I've been there too. Those would be real conversations to be able to have. Instead it's, oh no, you're scaring me too much. We have to keep it one dimensional, not integrated, no intimacy. So I'm going to excommunicate you and send you away.

John Dehlin [01:38:25] So how does a modern man and these principles apply to women as well, because women can be two faced and, or, yeah, you know, superficial or what's the term where you're duplicitous? Duplicitous, Passive aggressive, All those things.

Lance Allred [01:38:44] Right.

John Dehlin [01:38:46] How does someone learn to have more integrity? How does someone do this?

Lance Allred [01:38:51] I ask myself a question every night when I go to bed. Uncomfortable question. Was I the same person in every room that I walked into? Just that question alone. That's where you begin. And the rest takes care of itself. Holding yourself with accountability. Accountability is the first principle for a reason. And I know people roll their eyes at accountability and integrity. Yeah, these boring keywords. John, as you know, integrity was one of the three corporate principles for Enron. What does it even mean? People love to throw lip service at these words. Yeah, but we're gonna now we're talking about what they actually mean and what it means to actually live them. And so having the accountability to ask yourself that question, am I the same person in every room that I walk into is so uncomfortable that you can barely stand to look at yourself because you don't even know who you are and you have a choice. Well, I can go back to one dimensional relationships, but once you step on that path towards clarity, there's no going back. You know that. All you can do is say, okay, well I'm going to begin to be more honest with who I am. I'm going to just be much more transparent, as uncomfortable as it is. And if people try to exploit me because they see my true colors, they weren't even my people to begin with. And so as you integrate all of who you are, the right people will integrate with you. Love it.

John Dehlin [01:40:23] Okay, this is so good. So the next principle you have is compassion. And, and again, as a Mormon and as a Western male, or just as a. As kind of an old mindset thinker, it's about certainty and it's about the system and it's about playing your. And compassion. I. I've made the argument, and I made this in a podcast recently. Empathy and compassion are two of the most dangerous things to an orthodox religion.

Lance Allred [01:40:54] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:40:55] Because as soon as you're sympathetic for LGBT people, as soon as you realize they didn't choose it, as soon as you're sympathetic to women and how they get mistreated in a patriarchy, as soon as you're sympathetic to people of color or to people who have doubts or to people who are thinkers, as soon as you're sympathetic to marginalized people, marginalized individuals, the hard things that people go through, well, then you turn to the organization that's causing that harm and you say, this is unacceptable. So this is one of the most radical and dangerous principles. It is to a patriarchy that exists. So what is the opposite of compassion that we learn with toxic masculinity in a patriarchy so that we can then see.

Lance Allred [01:41:36] I love it. Away from it. Use compassion. To sum up your point, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and I don't believe Jesus with. It was a deity, but he was the greatest Buddhist of his time.

John Dehlin [01:41:50] Yeah.

Lance Allred [01:41:50] Sadducees and Pharisees. He was doing the same thing that you just described by giving people compassion.

John Dehlin [01:41:57] Right.

Lance Allred [01:41:57] Compassion destroys systems.

John Dehlin [01:42:00] Right.

Lance Allred [01:42:00] Which you so eloquently just said.

John Dehlin [01:42:03] Said it better. It destroys structures. Right. Yeah.

Lance Allred [01:42:08] Toxic masculinity towards compassion would be like, oh, black lives matter. All lives matter.

John Dehlin [01:42:14] Right.

Lance Allred [01:42:15] I am refusing. When they say that, I am refusing to allow myself to live in your shoes for just a moment. I'm going to shut down any pain or cry for help and demean it by shaming you for trying to say black people are more important than anybody else, which is what they're not saying. But I'm going to spin the narrative to shame you, to stay in your place. Compassion, one of the hardest ones to live. Let's talk about a couple instances of compassion.

John Dehlin [01:42:52] Oh, and just. And just to be clear, aggressiveness. Right.

Lance Allred [01:42:55] Just aggressiveness.

John Dehlin [01:42:56] Yeah. When you think about men at their worst, it's when they're like, er, let me fight with you. Let me have a flame war with you on the Internet. Let me call you names, Let me call you out, let me take you down. It's. It's that aggressive.

Lance Allred [01:43:10] It's aggressive.

John Dehlin [01:43:11] Or in the bar, it's Let me fight you. Let me punch you in the face. Instead of aggressiveness, it's the opposite.

Lance Allred [01:43:16] Compassion is me standing in a. In an arena, on the road, as a visiting team, and having people who don't really know me, me project onto me their fear, their hate, their anger. And I can choose to take it personally or I can see life is hard. And people come to these sporting events to just try to relieve some pressure. Does that mean the way they're behaving is okay? No. But it does allow me to relieve the pressure and say, I'm not going to take this personally and fight back with bravado and said, I can just say life is hard. It's probably harder for this person, I can tell, because they have no teeth and they're screaming at me and they're already drunk in the first quarter. I can imagine they probably don't have much going for them when they go home. I don't say that condescendingly. Allows me to say, huh, Okay. I can probably handle them screaming at me. My hearing aids are out anyway. I can't really hear what they're saying, but I can feel what they're saying. And so there have been many times I have failed at compassion. Compassion is the hardest one to live. I've been through a divorce. I wasn't always compassionate. I've been with your ex.

John Dehlin [01:44:30] I'd be ex. Yeah, ex partners, ex spouses. It's hard to be civil.

Lance Allred [01:44:34] It was hard to be. And so compassion is the hardest one to live because not only culturally, but especially, you know, Mormon, intermountain West pioneer heritage. Someone punches you, you got to punch back or you got to punch first before they even have a chance to P you. That kind of aggressive scarcity. Us versus the frontier mentality that our geographical locations have so much bearing on our religious and cultural identities and that heritage that we have. And so stepping out of that one thing, for example, Black lives matter. I'm not afraid to get political, because I don't really think it's political. It's a compassionate humanity issue. Having lived outside of the United States, been pulled over. One time in Venezuela, a cop pulled me over, took me out of the car, took all my money, made me feel really gross, violated and exposed. And in that moment, I said, well, she's. At least it didn't happen in my own country. And my mind was blown because why I can't imagine having that happen to me was hard enough, but imagining it happening to me in my own country, in your neighborhood, in my own neighborhood. Where I'm a citizen and I have rights, supposed rights.

John Dehlin [01:46:01] And you're talking about people of color who are exactly. Basically driving while black.

Lance Allred [01:46:06] Is that driving while black?

John Dehlin [01:46:07] Pulled over by a police officer for driving while black.

Lance Allred [01:46:10] And so the toxic masculine would be say, oh, yeah, I've had that happen to me before, but I got over it. Compassion would be say, wow, that really sucked. But at least it didn't happen to me in my own country, in my own neighborhood. And so my heart breaks for you, and I'm here with you and I support you. I lose nothing, contrary to whatever subconscious fear patriarchy says. I lose nothing by giving compassion to another human being. A beautiful example that will always stick with me. When I was playing the minor leagues, toiling away for $1,200 a month trying to make it to the NBA, there was an interview Steve Nash gave one time. Steve Nash, who was at the time, mvp. He says, yeah, I've worked hard and everything, but a lot of things in life just had to go my way. And in that moment, I cried because he had the humility to give compassion out by saying, yeah, I've worked hard, but the break went my way. And so by me saying, as a white American male, there's been a lot of things that have gone my way. I lose nothing. It's not like they're going to come and take money out of my bank account. Oh, Lance, you admitted that, so we have to deduct you 50%. Those things don't happen by me giving compassion to other people and saying and acknowledging this. It's giving them some intimacy and being able to meet them and say, I'm doing my best to be here and hold space for you. Let me know how I can help you. Compassion is what brings about systemic change. Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Mandela, they did not demand retribution. Retribution is a symptom of patriarchy. So even trigger warning, even when you have ultra feminist demanding their pound of flesh saying, now it's our turn. Man has to know what it feels like to be disempowered and emasculated. That is a symptom of patriarchy. That pendulum swinging back and forth from scarcity is patriarchy. A beautiful moment happened. Was a friend of mine, a gal who's had a lot of misogynistic things happen to her as a professional woman. And I was telling her a story one day about a girl I had been dating. I was really connected with her, but then some really rich guy in Manhattan found her on Instagram and flew out her and her dog. For her dog to have surgery and she never came back. So what that really brought up for me and we have to understand this, this is where compassion is required of both sides. Compassion cannot just be a one way street. But for my friend, the girl who's had a lot of crazy stuff happen to her, ridiculous stuff, for her in that moment, she could have said, oh well, she has a right to do it. She's a girl. Time for women to be empowered. Instead she said, that's really shitty. I'm sorry you had that happen, Lance. She met me with compassion. So here's the thing about compassion. It is those who have been most wronged that have the duty frankly to stop just short of an eye for an eye and demand full retribution and instead bring grace in and forgiveness. And that's where change comes. Rather than full retribution, full retribution just keeps going back and forth, back and forth.

Compassion Does Not Cost You Anything

John Dehlin [01:49:52] I love that. When I, when I, when you say that compassion doesn't cost you anything, I want to ask you a question about that because I think whether this is conscious or subconscious, if you're a white cisgender, heterosexual, you know, middle to upper middle class male, right. Educated.

Lance Allred [01:50:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:14] You're swimming. And just like you're the most powerful, you're in the. Not just the 1%, you're in the.001% of power in the world. And anytime you're, anytime a racial redistribution of power is discussed, a gender redistribution of power, a sexuality redistribution of power, a socioeconomic redistribution of power. It, it, the feeling, the fear, whether again, whether it's conscious or unconscious, is you stand to lose power. Power.

Lance Allred [01:50:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:49] By. Because once you show empathy for people of color, transgender people, lgbt, LGB people, women, minorities, poor, whoever it is, once you show, just like with the church, once you show empathy and compassion for them, just like the church loses its power, you as, as the, the alpha male, right, you, you stand to lose your power. Which means maybe you won't make as much money, maybe you won't have as much control, maybe you won't be, have as many freedoms or as much privilege as you once had. I think that's the fear or the perception.

Lance Allred [01:51:24] Fear.

John Dehlin [01:51:25] And that's a story.

Lance Allred [01:51:26] It's a story.

John Dehlin [01:51:27] But I think that's.

Lance Allred [01:51:27] You nailed it. So what would you think is maybe, maybe, maybe maybe just stories that we're living in fear. If I give them compassion now, they're going to want a foot later and then a yard and they're going to come from my house and then they're going to come for my guns and everything's going to be taken from me, which is just scarcity.

John Dehlin [01:51:46] Yeah.

Lance Allred [01:51:46] That's patriarchy. That you think there's not enough to go around for everybody. A powerful thing for the women listening right now. Yes. For white male men, the system was rigged our way. And we have to be honest. If we did not excel in the system, that then is a scary mirror to look at. Because if we know it was designed to work our way, but it isn't. It really isn't. As we see now, a lot of people who are drawn to Trump and this populism that they think these old jobs are going to come back because they're afraid the system is leaving. And it is because all systems fade away.

John Dehlin [01:52:34] And change. Yeah.

Lance Allred [01:52:35] And change. That is very terrifying that way. I was taught to grow up in the system that I'm now a generation too late for. And I am terrified. And I still have enough experiences. And I'm asking myself, why was I drawn in just the last four or five years to these kind of women that I thought were very emotionally safe women that would still then leave me for someone rich? So that is where women still have to have compassion for men. That we have this huge fear. And it is confirmed because we see enough young women dating older men with money that if I do not have enough money, I am not alpha enough. And so while the movies that they drag us to tell us they want intimacy and vulnerability, when push comes to shove, sometimes. Sometimes women want security. Yeah. Push come to shove is 50, 50 almost a woman wants security or does she want vulnerability? Intimacy with a partner as they grow

John Dehlin [01:53:51] together, sometimes someone will want to trade up socioeconomically. And if it doesn't come with socioeconomic.

Lance Allred [01:53:58] And I. I'm not saying so.

John Dehlin [01:53:59] So emotional intimacy.

Lance Allred [01:54:01] Yeah. So I'm saying that this still happens enough to reinforce old alpha behavior.

John Dehlin [01:54:10] Right.

Lance Allred [01:54:11] That these men still feel they have to be this false bravado. I'm not saying it's okay. They're being. But I'm saying women have to be compassionate enough to admit that that social trade up is still happening enough. Just as it's happening that men are marrying younger women, leaving their wives. Wives is dual.

John Dehlin [01:54:29] Yeah. Men want the pretty. Men often do want the pretty young.

Lance Allred [01:54:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:34] Thing.

Lance Allred [01:54:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:54:35] The trophy.

Lance Allred [01:54:36] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:54:36] Because that's also very old alpha.

Lance Allred [01:54:38] Old alpha.

John Dehlin [01:54:39] And oh, if. If your wife gets into her 40s and there's some gray hair and there's some wrinkles and the body shifted because of children.

Lance Allred [01:54:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:47] Just like sometimes women want to Trade up for a man with more power, money and status. A man might want to trade quote up or down.

Lance Allred [01:54:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:56] For the younger, prettier.

Lance Allred [01:54:57] Exactly. I'm not saying these are. Okay. What I am saying is they both happen enough that both parts of a relationship need to be able to have real talks about that and be intimate and talk about it. And so therefore that allows women to be compassionate to men. That fear that we have, if I lose my job, up, my wife is going to leave me. The women have the fear. Yeah. If my body changes and I get old, my husband's going to leave me. Those are scary conversations to have. But we have to recognize that's a fear in both and be able to have compassion and have those real kind of intimate conversations. And those are not just one night conversations and suddenly you're over it. That kind of deprogramming takes a long time.

John Dehlin [01:55:46] Yeah.

Lance Allred [01:55:47] That's a long journey of two, three years of work of daily challenging those kind of questions and internal narratives.

John Dehlin [01:55:54] Totally. Okay. So that's kind of a preview of, of compassion.

Lance Allred [01:56:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:02] Again, we're, we're talking about the main chapters from the book the New Alpha Male. And I have to say this has great illustrations of stories from your life, from people that you know, from coaches, from players, from just living life. Life you're going to. And there's an audio version of the book, so I primarily consume this in an audio version. But I think to get the full effect, I really do think you need to buy it, you need to mark it up and it's worth it. Okay, so the next one, the next chapter, chapter six for you is discomfort.

The Comfort Illusion and Fear of Growth

Lance Allred [01:56:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:56:34] And I think we, we wrote as a counter to that kind of the illusion of control or certainty because we want to avoid discomfort. And so we want this illusion of control and certainty.

Lance Allred [01:56:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:50] Which is system. You know that. I think that is religion's main role and I think where Mormonism most shines.

Lance Allred [01:56:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:56:58] Is to say, hey, don't fear death, don't fear being poor, don't fear being alone, don't fear the afterlife, because we've got all the answers. Just, just, just obey. Fill in this role. Become the male or the female. Get married, go on your mission, have kids, get your job, serve in the church, Serve until you die. Get on that Mormon train. And you won't have to worry about what happens when I die. You won't have to worry about being alone or sad, not having friends, not having community, all of that. It's almost like public school. All of that is Just packaged for you and given to you. And you'll never have to have suffering or pain or fear. It's almost like the Garden of Eden or the Truman show, as you mentioned in your book. It's like, we'll give you this safety. I mean you, I mean the, the movies are endless. Tangled, the Matrix, Moana, Smallfoot, the village, Pleasantville, the invention of lying. They're all about this system that's set up to minimize your pain and discomfort, to give you the illusion of safety and security.

Lance Allred [01:58:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:58:16] Go, Go, Lance.

Lance Allred [01:58:17] This is going to be a fun one. I love this one. No other religion has more of a happy ending than Mormonism. Families can be together forever. And also we get to be gods and create our own worlds and have millions of children ourselves.

John Dehlin [01:58:34] What's not to like?

Lance Allred [01:58:35] What's not to like about that?

John Dehlin [01:58:37] Yeah.

Lance Allred [01:58:38] That story is so satisfying that who, if they didn't have to, would want to leave that behind. When I hear a Mormon. So when you hear the stories, I can be with my family together forever. Here's the logic flaw. Families fight, families argue. But then suddenly when we get to heaven, everything's going to be peaceful. Who then has the personality change? So most humans, Mormons, especially when we talk about heaven, we just assume that we get to take our culture with us, that we think our culture is a universal language. It's not. Our culture is a geographical influenced earthly confluence of ancestors. Again, geography, religion, trauma, war, nature, all those things. But a lot of people, they want to be able to take our culture because it's what's familiar to us into the next life. That's not likely going to happen. Just logic alone. Because suddenly, again, who has a personality change that everyone suddenly gets along. The comfort illusion is so interwoven with the American dream, with Ezra Taft Benson and his work with Secretary Interior. Mormonism is so incestually woven.

John Dehlin [02:00:12] Agriculture.

Lance Allred [02:00:14] Say what?

John Dehlin [02:00:14] He was Secretary of Agriculture.

Lance Allred [02:00:15] Agriculture. Thank you. Yes. Mormonism is so interwoven, woven with the American myth that we need to believe the American dream is true, that I as an individual control my fate and that I can have all my dreams come true if I just follow the system. Yeah, that's oxymoronic. People want their dream to come true, but they also want to stay inside their comfort zones. You can't have both. Again, as we talked about the train station, when people are in that place of questioning, when you step outside of your comfort zone, that's where the magic of life happens.

John Dehlin [02:00:54] Growth.

Lance Allred [02:00:54] Right?

John Dehlin [02:00:54] Growth.

Lance Allred [02:00:55] That's what the Growth.

John Dehlin [02:00:55] Pain. Right.

Lance Allred [02:00:56] Growth. Comes from pain. And so people keep trying to bypass pain. And I said earlier, pain or heartbreak is our greatest teacher. And people don't want it. They want to grow, but they want us to still fit inside their narrative or everything looks good. They want to grow within their box and have all this tiny world is snow globe and all these happy ending things. Because part of people are afraid if their dreams really do come true, they won't fit inside their box anymore. Some part of humans know that at some primal level we know we really want to have the success that we dream of. We're going to have to outgrow this box. And so most people will choose comfort and security. Or as I said in TEDx, most people would choose a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven because it's what they know is what they're familiar with. And so again, you have all these people playing the victim because I want to stay inside my box. I still want to believe in this religion even though I'm having a lot of pain and struggle right now and I'm trying to get, I can't get ahead financially, but I still want to believe that I'm special, that we're God's chosen people because at least I got that going for me. And also I'm an American and we're the best country in the world. So as long as those outer narratives are in place, the internal really myopic lens of I'm not happy, I'm not fulfilled, my husband and I aren't talking each other anymore, nothing's fun. I can endure that at least, I guess because again, my heaven is going to be really, really good. But they keep living this dichotomy and you see it on social media, you see the victim archetype language all over. I'm not happy. Why does this keep happening to me? That victim archetype is everywhere with the bully. The bully and the victim do this continual dance. Get over it, snowflake. Oh, the election was rigged. Now I'm the snowflake. Right. They just do this continual dance with bully and victim. And that is.

John Dehlin [02:03:08] It happens on both sides. Democrats. Absolutely, absolutely.

Lance Allred [02:03:10] That's what Democrats and is continual dance the bully to the partisanship.

John Dehlin [02:03:14] The problem isn't Democrats or Republicans. It's. It's black and white worldviews.

Lance Allred [02:03:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:03:20] Assuming you know what's true.

Lance Allred [02:03:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:22] Aggressiveness and then demeaning the other side as a victim.

Lance Allred [02:03:25] And also the child archetype.

John Dehlin [02:03:27] Right.

Lance Allred [02:03:28] The child archetypes see things in black and white. That's how a child can only make sense of a world. And yet we as adults still take that child into the world. Because the world, as we get older and older, we learn that we don't know anything at all. All the more we learn, the more we learn how little we know. And so therefore the child comes up and wants things to stay safe in certainty and sees things in these black and white narratives, and then they want to see things in black and white narratives. But then their dreams aren't coming true, they aren't having these lies that they've been chasing. The things aren't coming true, but they're like, oh, well, okay, it can't be that maybe I have to outgrow my entire cultural internal mainframe of how I process the world. My world, my brain is just a processing computer of how I process this world. I don't want to reframe that. I'm just going to be a victim and throw out a conspiracy theory and say the world's rigged against me, that I'm important enough that the government would go out of its way to single me out and try to control my life. I was raised with conspiracy theorists. It was, was integrated at the pulpit with religious doctrine that the world is so out to get us that we have to live on the fringes as outlaws. And once we do enough, outlaw things and break enough rules, the government will in fact come and raid our compound, confirming our self fulfilling prophecies that the government is against us. And this big giant conspiracy around. I saw the whole thing, but of course as a kid, I'm saying, okay, so we're God's chosen people, but he also doesn't have our back. He's not going to protect us from the world. That doesn't make any sense. But that's what we do. We play these mental gymnastics in these comfort zones, in these boxes, in these paradigms to make it fit. Because stepping into the unknown, letting go of my identity, taking risk, being willing to fail, failure just means you're stepping outside your comfort zone zone. That's good. Mediocre is staying inside your comfort zone. And people think they're entitled to big things when they stay inside their comfort zone. You can't have both. And so at the Mormon level, you have a lot of people who are still trying to stay inside this paradigm, this narrative. And yet with capitalism, the disparity continues to grow and grow and grow. And instead of them saying, oh, maybe this system isn't really working anymore, it's either conspiracy theory or I'm not worthy enough, God's testing me or punishing me. And I don't deserve to be happy and I don't deserve to have my dreams come true. I love my father. I saw him go through all those. Because letting go of the entire Mormon thing was so painful. That entire comfort zone of who is Vance? Vance is the theologian. Wait, you mean it's all a lie? Maybe. Then what were all those years for? Now who the hell am I? That's a very scary place to go. But from my parents challenging and blowing the whistle on child abuse and money laundering, I was able to see them cut their losses losses and step into the unknown. And there's great dignity in starting over because you're never starting over from scratch. You're starting over with experience. So it's not a loss.

Applying These Principles to the Post-Mormon Experience

John Dehlin [02:07:06] Can I also extend this to the ex Mormon experience for a second?

Lance Allred [02:07:09] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:07:10] Because I would love to think about how the archetypes sometimes apply to ex Mormons as well. And how ex Mormons get stuck raging against the Church in ways that don't always lead to their growth. Like some I've. People have kind of joked at me and some people even accused this Thrive thing is being an MLM or some type of. I don't sell these hats, I don't make any money off of it. It's not an mlm. Thrive is simply an idea that you can heal and grow after Mormonism.

Lance Allred [02:07:43] Right?

John Dehlin [02:07:44] That's the idea. And that's all I want Thrive to represent, is that you don't have to get stuck stuck in Mormonism, in a religious system, or in anti Mormon and ex Mormonism. You can heal and grow and move beyond it. However, it is easy to get stuck as an ex Mormon in some of these archetypal paradigms. So for example, the child or the victim. Right. Well, the church hurt me, which it did. The church abused me, which it did. Or what's the black and white archetype?

Lance Allred [02:08:16] Well, the black and white child would be the child.

John Dehlin [02:08:17] It's also the child. So it's like, okay, now I'm in a black and white world where the church is all evil.

Lance Allred [02:08:22] Right.

John Dehlin [02:08:23] And I'm all, I know it all and I'm good. I'm just curious if some of these archetypes that you talk about can apply to ex Mormons as well.

Lance Allred [02:08:31] Absolutely. Well, you just went through a couple of them.

John Dehlin [02:08:33] And so what are some of the archetypes?

Lance Allred [02:08:35] So the four survivor archetypes from Carl Jung are the child, the victim, the saboteur, and the prostitute. Okay, let's go through the languaging child says, I need someone to fulfill my needs. I need someone to protect me. I need the world that makes sense in a black and white way. Victim says, why does this always happen to me? Things always bad, people always leave. And also I need full retribution. I need my pound of flesh. There you go. Prostitute says, and what was that last argument type? That was the victim.

John Dehlin [02:09:10] Okay. Yeah. And how many ex Mormons want the church to have the pound of. Want to extract that pound of flesh from the church? And there needs to be accountability. And so it's difficult. And part of what this podcast is about is shining a spotlight on the church, showing where it hurts people, awakening people to the lack of informed consent. And so I always am constantly battling how much of that is healthy.

Lance Allred [02:09:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:34] Versus how much of it is. Is. Is revenge and trying to extract a pound of flesh. Sometimes I don't even know myself.

Lance Allred [02:09:40] Right. You know, the world needs more teachers, less victims. And so stories are important. But again, who is telling the story? Yeah, the teacher or the victim? Yeah, the victim takes from people. The teacher gives wisdom to people. Too many people operate in the victim. This happened to me. I need this. I'm going to take your empathy, your pity, your sympathy to make me feel validated enough that I'll stay here. Social media really feeds into that one. So that victim archetype and bully archetype again, do this dance because they're constantly rewarded on social media. And so the challenge is the great oxymoron or the irony, a better word. When you leave the church and you keep focusing on it and you keep attacking it, you're still giving it power. As painful as that is to hear, I have had to leave many systems behind, religious basketball programs, and many times I wanted a pound of flesh. I get it. I get it. And we'll get into the seventh principle in a bit of gratitude and forgiveness and talk about the necessity of these experiences and why we have them and what we can choose to do with them and learn from them. But because the Mormon Church, as a culture, as a system, teaches us to be children, even children, childlike all the time, as adults, be children, that we need someone to hold our hand and get us to heaven. We're taught to be childlike as adults, John, So that when we leave, we break away, it would make sense that the child archetype would be thrashing and screaming and wailing, saying, this isn't fair. Who's going to hold my hand now? Someone needs to save me and protect me. And the victim Comes and says, yes, I was wrong, I was exploited, I need my pound of flesh. Those are the survivor archetypes. That is ego consciousness. When I say survivor ego, that is you in reaction. When you're reacting to the world, that means that you are in survivor archetype. When you're responding to the world, that means you have brought in other archetypes, whether it's the hero, the philosopher, the lover, the poet. The lover says, I love what I do and I love what I create, and I do not care what the world thinks. The sovereign says, I for myself create my own fate. We all have these archetypes. That's what the Greek myths are. They're metaphors for the archetypes. You know this with all your philosophy studies, the archetypes within ourselves that are the resources, sources that we have to learn to bring up and let them take the will, the teacher, the judge, the king. There's so many archetypes that we could go through, but most of us, to belong in systems have to be the child, because the child doesn't ask questions. The child just does what it's told. And systems need people to do what they're told to survive.

John Dehlin [02:13:09] Amen. Amen. Okay, so. So we need to get comfortable with discomfort. We need to learn, sit in our pain and our discomfort, our sadness, our fear. Yes, all of this strife. Because if we jump to certainty or a black and white worldview, we, we, we miss the point. If it's all about being Republican or Democrat, we miss the point. If it's all about white people, people or black, you know, white power or black people power, we miss the point. If it's all about being a man or a woman, masculine or feminine, we miss the point. If it's all about being straight or gay, you know, we miss the point. We have to learn to navigate a multicolored, nuanced world that includes all the spectrum of emotions, not just happiness and confidence and strength, strength and courage, but also fear and sadness and anger. Even anger, yes, is a healthy, valuable emotion that Mormonism beats out of you

Lance Allred [02:14:13] and teaches you is bad.

John Dehlin [02:14:14] Anger is the devil, right? Yes.

Lance Allred [02:14:16] Yes. So I like the point. You break it up. Emotions before labels, meaning. Allow yourself to step into the unknown, which is the human experience and the gamut of emotions that we humans. What makes us human is not our ability to think, think contrary to what the brain says. What makes us human is our ability to feel. And so allowing yourself to feel these gamut of motions is stepping into the unknown. Because again, if you were raised in the system. These. You were not given the coping skills or the space or the permission to even sit with these emotions. And so they would make you uncomfortable. But that is where growth is. And I will fully admit, admit that being born with rh, legally deaf, having to wear the hearing aids, being made to wear my hearing aids, being made to be in speech therapy, being forced out of my comfort zone every day gave me a early start on a threshold for discomfort. But like anyone developing a muscle, discomfort is a muscle. You develop that threshold, you keep pushing it, you keep growing it. And so that's a challenge I give to everyone every day. Do something that makes you uncomfortable at least once a day, keep building that muscle, keep growing, keep challenging yourself, especially stepping out of black and white narratives. So, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:39] I. I've had two of my children and many, many of my extended family experience obsessive compulsive disorder or, you know, high anxiety or phobias.

Lance Allred [02:15:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:51] And the treatment, the gold standard treatment for, for an anxiety disorder or for obsessive compulsive disorder is discomfort. Yeah, you literally. And it's, It's a type of treatment that works, but. But it has a high dropout rate.

Lance Allred [02:16:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:06] Because the treatment is to just intentionally expose yourself to discomfort.

Lance Allred [02:16:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:13] And you get stronger. But if you. But the weird thing is, is the more you try and avoid discomfort, comfort, the weaker you become, the smaller your life becomes. The more you're putting up walls, the more you're closing your windows, drawing the shades, and your life gets smaller and smaller. The more you're willing to face discomfort, to embrace it, to open up to it. The, the stronger you are, ironically, and the more opportunities that arise for you

Lance Allred [02:16:41] externally, physically, and internally going inward again, you can be, you can be a daredevil, thrill seeker, mountain climber. Someone goes off into the jungle for two weeks, just a rush seeker. Right. That's putting yourself outside your comfort zone. But a lot of those people too, would rather jump off a cliff than actually sit down and ask himself tough internal questions about trauma. So there's many ways to grow. So it's not always just a physical, but usually the internal growth growing internally is far more terrifying than any external challenge of discomfort, effort.

John Dehlin [02:17:16] Yeah, I love it. Okay, the next principle in your book, chapter seven, is one that is.

Lance Allred [02:17:24] It's very Buddhist.

John Dehlin [02:17:26] I learned at first with Deckhart Tolle and the power of now and the New Earth, but then secular Buddhism and then the form of psychotherapy that I was trained in called acceptance and commitment therapy is all around the power of acceptance, resistance. It's sort of like attachment and resistance is pain and suffering. According to Buddhism, acceptance of what is is liberation.

Lance Allred [02:17:50] It is so.

John Dehlin [02:17:51] So that. That's my little primer. Tell us about what. What is the for for toxic masculinity? For sort of like alpha, old alpha male. What is the opposite of acceptance is

Lance Allred [02:18:04] stubbornness, is refusing to adapt, is shaming the younger generations. Kids these days, right? All that stuff, people doing new things that make you feel threatened. Toxic masculinity to acceptance would also be like, oh, well, it wouldn't be fair if we forgave student debts now because I had to pay my own way. The logic of that is then the next one would be, well, I was abused as a child, so my kid needs to be abused too. That is ridiculous logic. But that is the logic within some people in toxic masculinity that because they endured it, it people after them have to endure it too. Because again, the child and the victim say, I had it happen to me. Everyone else should have it happen to me too. So toxic masculinity really is these survivor archetypes just thrashing around going into acceptance. We talked about stepping into the zone as an athlete. When you are in the flow and I am shooting any shot 2ft, 30ft out, and it's just hitting the barrel of the rim, like the rim is five feet wide and I can't miss. It is because I am in flow. When I get pissed at a ref and I argue with him or I get mad with my coach, I am resisting what is and I have taken myself out of the game. I actually most of my teachings, even though they come from the same place as Native Americans, archeologically speaking, came from the Bering Strait, from Asia. So the root is still there. A lot of my teaching and growth and mentors come from the Lakota, Salish and a few other tribes that I've nez Perce that I've been privileged to study and be with and spend time with and serve with, helping me as I recovered from my suicide depression. In many ways, languaging is just different. But learning to accept and get out of your own way, that again, when I am in the zone and I start thinking, I start aiming my shots, I'm going to miss because I'm trying to control it. But when you accept what is accepting is not quitting. Accepting is actually as a basketball player is being a good teammate. Because if I'm not accepting, here's what I'm doing. I'm saying, oh, I missed my last Five shots. I got to make this next one or else coach is going to take me out. But if I am able to say I missed my last five shots because that's what was supposed to happen, why was that supposed to happen? Because that's what happened. That story is no longer chasing me. I'm no longer in fear thing saying I got to make this next shot, which is me in my head living in fear. But when I accept and say that's what happened, I let it go. I'm then able to be in the moment, able to make the best informed decision with all the information around me. Again, being decision focused, not outcome focused. Decision focused. Quality decisions is what makes a pro, not necessarily outcome. So in acceptance, I move into dis quality decisions knowing I'm making the best decision I can. And therefore that allows me to be present for my teammates. Acceptance moves us into surrender. That's the second part of this principle. Acceptance is releasing control while still hoping for the best outcome for yourself. Surrender is the next step. My favorite example of surrender is the Hayoka warrior from the Lakota. The Hayako warrior is the warrior or the sacred clown who would ride backwards on his horse into battle. And the American soldiers are like, who is this clown? What's this guy doing? What a. What a joker. But to the Lakota, he was very sacred grid because he was riding backwards saying, creation. And I call whatever higher power, it is creation because that allows me to be in this continual, growing, moving grid. Whatever it is, John, that the High Okra warrior is saying, okay, creator, what will be will be. And I surrender. And when you have surrendered, you have let go of your entire identity, of your story, of who you thought you had to be or through who you thought you were supposed to be to belong, to fit in. I have had many deaths, of many dreams, of the person I thought I had to be. I've had to surrender many iterations of who Lance Allred was, that I can look back at these stages of who I am, barely recognizing that person anymore, able to take those lessons from it. And so when we move into surrender, that is the ultimate form in my opinion of bravery, being able to truly step into the void and say, I no longer have attachment to the story or this happily ever after. Because really, the story that I'm trying to hold on to is only causing me pain. Pain. And again, I can either die with my story or my story can die. And I surrender my everything. Not just a story, but I surrender my identity. And so in Mormonism or in Toxic Masculinity it would be. There are three levels of human, human consciousness, individual, tribal, and global. And we're now being asked to move into a global consciousness. And that requires the sacrifice of the individual and the tribal. And that scares a lot of American and Mormon men who were taught to invest into mine, me, my trophies, my possessions. This means I'm alpha. Who has the most toys, wins. Wait, you mean we're moving to a global consciousness and these metrics aren't even applying anymore? Oh, no, it's because they're actually trying to come and steal my stuff. It's bro, people don't even want your stuff. So they're going to throw a fit, go out with their guns, acting like everyone's trying to take something from them because they're trying to hold on to go back to 1980s Reaganomics, Reagan world. But never once in the history of the world did a ref ever say to me, oh, Lance, you're mad with that call. Did I hurt your feelings? Let's walk that back. Or in the third quarter, when they came out and started calling the game differently, which they often do, did they say, oh, you're right, Lance, let's go back, we'll call it like we were in the first quarter. Never once has nature, evolution said to man, oh, I'm sorry, are we making you uncomfortable? Let's walk this back. It's not how nature works. Never once. So we can either resist it and go extinct, which we are very well at risk of doing because we're refusing to adapt, or we can surrender our stories and our identities, individually and tribally, and move into a global consciousness. And we're already halfway there because you got. It's funny, we have a lot of people blaming immigrants for taking jobs, but then they'll turn around and buy Chinese imported goods or foreign manufactured cars because they're fancy. And that's the dream, right? But those are just tokens of exported jobs. But a child says, I get to have it both ways. You can't have it both ways. And so surrender the global consciousness. As we, as humans, we're at this precipice right now. Are we going to surrender childlike things and let go of these comfort zones, or are we going to go to extinct extinction? And so that's the challenge. Being able to let go of things and step into that unknown and surrender our identities and that I. I know, and I feel it in you. Again, you've done it several times yourself. And, you know, it's a heavy. It's a heavy toll to pay. But once you walk through it, you wouldn't ever go back. You never would.

Transformation, Forgiveness, and Gratitude

John Dehlin [02:27:22] Yeah, okay. That leads us to transformation.

Lance Allred [02:27:28] It kind of is easy segue to transformation. As you move into that energy of surrender, letting go of your identity. Once you realize just how insignificant you are, you then oxymoronically see just how significant you are to help the global consciousness grow and evolve. Once you let go of the individual story, you can then contribute to the greater whole. And letting go of the individual narrative and stories, that is transformation itself. And I've been through it again many, many times. Of refiners, fire, the Phoenix Energy, letting go of many iterations of who I once thought I was. And you move into self actualization. When you are now exposed and you're standing outside of a system and you feel vulnerable and exposed, you can either say, I'm terrified, which you have a right to say, or you can say, wow, look at this blank canvas that I have carte blanche to do anything with because this is my life to do and play and create, rather than giving it away to some system to do with. Both are equally justified to feel. And you can fill them both at the same time. Again, as humans, we can feel conflicting emotions at the same time, contrary to what systems tell us. I can feel in awe and terrified at the same time. And moving into that, that transformation through there now again, my. My one metric of success is clarity. Clarity of being able to say, I decide for myself the truths that I wish to operate from, that I create my fate or fate of better. Fate is what happens to me. Destiny is what I do with that. That is the transformation that once you go through that not everyone goes with you. You know this. You've lost a lot of relationships, even post excommunication, you've lost a lot of relationships as you continue to go through these fires, continue to evolve as you went through your grieving cycle. The grieving cycle is the most powerful rite of passage we have as human beings. So much power comes from there, and it is a heavy cost. It hurts, it's painful. But once you come out of it, your clarity is so refined that you want to trade it for anything. And so in that transformation, if people are brave enough to step into that fire of grief and let the child and the victim and the stories die. And that's where we move into forgiveness and gratitude, which are the final principles of perseverance, the antithesis of transformation. Again, as people, no matter what, even if against their best interests at the Mormon level, even if life just isn't working for them or if they have a gay child and they're just refusing, refusing to let go of the story of the identity because it's just too scary. And they know it will be painful because they'll have to look and redefine everything is not just simply. Again, reading one positive self help book and you're cured. It's a new way of living. That's what I tell people. It's not. This isn't, this isn't a shortcut. I'm not giving you any shortcuts right now. This just becomes a new way of living. That once you step into the grief and the transformational fire of the phoenix, energy of death and rebirth, it just then becomes this perpetual experience that you keep outgrowing, outgrowing and outgrowing. But that's what we're made to do, to continually grow. That's what the universe itself does. Expand, contrast. That's what it's always doing. And so people refusing to step into that truth of expansion, that is the, the antithesis of transformation.

John Dehlin [02:32:05] And so what is. Why forgiveness and gratitude? Why? I mean, there are all sorts of things you could end with. Why do you end with forgiveness, forgiveness and gratitude? And why gratitude? What is it about each. Why is forgiveness.

Lance Allred [02:32:18] You can't have forgiveness without gratitude. Real forgiveness.

John Dehlin [02:32:22] Okay. The toxic masculinity. The opposite of forgiveness would be holding grudges.

Lance Allred [02:32:26] Holding grudges, Punishment casting stones that eye for an eye. Pound of pound, pound of flesh. Again, child archetype. That is, something was wrong with me or, or even the martyr that says, I'm not going to get my pound of flesh, but I know I'll get my dues in heaven and they can go to hell. Even that is Mormon toxicity of how we operate. Rather than recognizing everyone is on their own unique discovery that everyone himself is just an extension of the universe, like it or not. I mean, if all this is. I mean, John, really, at the end of the day, the fact that you and I are even here having a conversation is absurd. Whether you believe in creation theory or simulation theory or big bang theory is all absurd, completely absurd. And so it's like, all right, well this universe is just doing its thing and I'm a part of it. But Western theology told me I was separate from it. But really I'm a part of it because everything is what it is and just it is. So I'm with it.

John Dehlin [02:33:40] And I just have to say, I loved the part of your book where you talked about scale.

Lance Allred [02:33:43] Yeah, scale.

John Dehlin [02:33:45] That, that was A mind blowing, beautiful part of your book.

Lance Allred [02:33:48] I love scale.

John Dehlin [02:33:49] Scale.

Lance Allred [02:33:49] I love con. I love the concept of scale. So what John is talking about, what I alluded to in the book briefly was if you think about the solar system, it looks a lot like an atom. And so what if our solar system is just an atom inside the molecule of someone else's hand on a different dimension, in a different scale, in a different frequency. These are not bad things to think about. These are just things that make you wonder, that allow you to see just how insignificant you are.

John Dehlin [02:34:18] Are.

Lance Allred [02:34:19] And when you see how insignificant you are, you are liberated.

John Dehlin [02:34:24] See, some people think, well, that's terrifying. I. What religion helped me do is feel like I'm a child of God. I'm the most important thing in the world.

Lance Allred [02:34:30] Right.

John Dehlin [02:34:31] And. And that some people found a lot of comfort in that. That's what you're saying, is that you're saying that's the child. That's the illusion of strength or power or significance or safety. So how. Safety, safety. So how are we supposed to derive strength and comfort from feeling insignificant?

Lance Allred [02:34:50] Feeling insignificant and strength means that I now have a blank canvas that I am no longer beholden to someone else's metrics, someone else's judgment agenda, someone else's agenda, someone else's rules. Yeah, that I am now liberated to go carve my life out in this universal construct however I choose.

John Dehlin [02:35:19] Yeah.

Lance Allred [02:35:20] As scary as that may be, most people think they want freedom, but they really don't because that freedom then means, wait, if I have true freedom, where do I belong? Who am I? And what can I actually do with this? When really they say, well, I just want freedom to live within my value system and no one else can threaten my value system. So moving into forgiveness and gratitude, you have a lot of the cliche expressions, oh, forgive them. Not for them, but for you, so you can move on. You're still holding on to the story that you were wronged. Real forgiveness is being able to learn the lesson and appreciate who you became through that experience. And when you are developing true intimacy with yourself through integrity, accountability, compassion, discomfort, acceptance, you then fall in love with yourself. Not in a hubris way, but in awe. In awe of all the things you've seen and all the things you've done. And you have so much gratitude for the clarity you've stepped into. And you recognize that you would not have that clarity without those painful experiences. So you're able to have gratitude for that painful experience. For example, gratitude to the Sunday school teacher who told me that God made me deaf as form of punishment for helping me learn at a young age what unconditional love is not. Gratitude to my father's family who disowned us and sued us when we broke away from polygamy again for showing us where unconditional love is not. Not. And showing us what real love and friendships and bonds mean. Gratitude to coach Majeris for showing me the price of integrity and what it cost to live in integrity and the path I had to take when you

John Dehlin [02:37:36] left the U of U. Yeah. As a matter of principle, yeah. You learned how to do what your dad did.

Lance Allred [02:37:41] Basically, yeah. I rep. And if I did not speak out of and if I did not say and speak out of what happened at the University of Utah, then everything my father had done would have been in vain. And it allowed me to recognize the price my parents paid when they too had to speak out and walk in integrity and how they were abandoned and alienated and shamed.

John Dehlin [02:38:07] And listeners probably haven't heard that story about Rick Majeris and what you had to do, but give them the 10 second version.

Lance Allred [02:38:14] 10 seconds. It just. It got pretty. It got pretty crazy and abusive at the U. Yeah. Disgrace to cripples things that he would call me, finger spells stuff and just belittling that. It was. It was pretty bad that I had to leave. And so you left.

John Dehlin [02:38:31] The.

Lance Allred [02:38:31] Those stories came out and eventually I confirmed them and then he resigned a week later. And here's the thing about the Rick Majeris thing. No one wanted to believe in him more than me because from the culture I grew up in, in polygamy, my grandfather was a prophet. He was going to get me to heaven. Oh, that's not true. Oh, but Rick Majeris will help me get to the NBA. That'll get me to heaven. No one wanted to believe in Rick Majeris more than me. And I still love that man. And if I saw him, by the way, say what?

John Dehlin [02:39:02] He's passed. I'm telling the listeners he's passed away.

Lance Allred [02:39:04] Yeah, he's passed away. But if I saw him today, I would actually walk up to him and tell him, thank you. Our greatest heartbreaks are our greatest teachers. And there are still many youth fans that send me hate mail and I can sit them and look into the eye. If what I said was untrue, why wasn't I or the Tribune sued for slander? They don't want to hear it. And I have compassion for that because a lot of these people have hard lives and. But they were able to get the season tickets, breaking their backs take their kids up to the Huntsman center, where they and their kids watch the Utes do the 1998 run to the finals. It was a magical memory. I was there. I watched it too. And both truths can exist that Rick Majeris did love his players, but he also was very abusive. And that magical run was magical. Conflicting truths can exist at the same time, just like conflicting emotions can kiss exist at the same time. So after Majora's gratitude to all the. All the fans that projected on me and hated me for showing me the ills of the world, which is fear, last one I'll use is gratitude to the mother of my son. She's the only person I could have loved that madly, to be that exposed, to see all the many more blind spots that I had, that my worth as a man was attached to, my marriage or my relationship to the system of patriarchy, as painful as those experiences

John Dehlin [02:41:01] are,

Lance Allred [02:41:04] they're my greatest teachers, so there's tremendous gratitude for them, and that's why I'm able to forgive them as well. So that is the final transformation of an Alpha. Being able to look at your wounds, your trauma, your pain, and see the beautiful lessons and how they molded you into the person you are today, how they force you to learn how resourceful you truly are and what archetypes you have within you that are here to paint a beautiful world in your own authentic way.

John Dehlin [02:41:51] So beautiful. And as I'm, you know, my wife Margi and I, along with Natasha Helfer a couple years ago, wanted, you know, we, we couldn't see all the coaching clients that wanted to see us. We were holding workshops and retreats all over the world, and we, we couldn't help enough people. And so we just said, why don't we just spend 100 hours and put on a podcast? Every good thing we've ever learned about helping people through a faith crisis, you know, just give it away. Because we could never help everyone who needed our help anyway. And so we created a podcast where we did that. And, you know, for a long time I thought, what should I call this? What should I call this? And what I ended up calling. And most people don't even know this podcast exists. So, listeners, I don't want to take away from that beautiful thing you just said, but I'm tying it back, I promise. Yeah, most of you listeners don't know there's a podcast atmormonfaith crisis.com and it's, it's 70 plus hours of my Best, Margi's best and Natasha Helfer's best. Coaching around, you know, coming out as coming out as a non believing Mormon, coming out to family and friends, coming out to your children. What is spirituality like? What is sexuality like after you've left the church, how do you, you know, grieve it? How do you go through the steps of grieving? How do you redefine spirituality? How do you make your marriage better? All the things that you would ever want to know to begin with about rebuilding a new life is in this free podcast called the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. And I called it the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. Because what I learned from it is that as horrific, people don't like the term faith crisis. They say it's not a faith crisis. I had a truth crisis. I turn out, learned that the church was a fraud and then I realized what was true. And they don't want it framed as a faith crisis. And the thing that I always say is, but it feels like a crisis at the time when you're going through it and your whole world is falling apart, your identity is falling apart, your morality, your spirituality, your family, your marriage, your community, your roles, your identity, your vision of the afterlife, believe me, it feels like a crisis and it is rooted in your faith. What, what I have learned after 20 years of dealing in this space and after coaching or interacting with tens of thousands of people now that's not an exaggeration, is that this can be the greatest gift that you could ever be given. Being a Mormon turns out to have been not so bad in, in, in a lot of ways, but also bad in a lot of ways. But being, leaving a religion can be the biggest gift of your lifetime. You got this family, you got this community, you got this identity, you got this education, you got the socioeconomic status and then to leave it, yeah, it's a tough transition, but coming out the other end, and that's what thrive is all about. Coming out the other end, you can have better mental health health, you can have better physical health, you can have better marriages, you can become a better parent, you can have better friendships, you can have a deeper, more meaningful community. You can trade up at every level such that all you, all you know to do if you can reach this point is to say thank you. And this is like going to blow the mind and cause outrage in so many people listening right now who aren't there. Right. You can reach the point where you say thank you Mormon Church for all that you did to help me get to where I am now. Yes. Because how I feel right now. This is John Dehlin talking in 2021. In April of 2021, I feel like the most fortunate human ever. And I don't mean that in hubris. I don't mean that in pride. I'm, I'm, personally, I've lost a ton of weight, right? I'm physically healthier than I was 20, 25 years ago. I eat better, I don't sleep better, but that's another story. I've got a better marriage with my wife now, way better marriage than I had when I was active in believing Mormon. I believe that my kids would all say I'm a better dad now than I ever was before. And I have better friends, deeper friendships, better community, like a fulfilling job. And it's not prosperity gospel. I'm not talking about money, not talking about power. I am just talking about the refiner's fire of a faith crisis. What Mormonism gave me and then what I've been able to build after it based on the Mormonism that raised me has, has left me feeling very, very grateful. Now I'm not a woman. I don't know, I didn't, I wasn't a woman in a patriarch turkey. I was never raped or assaulted like a woman might. I was never, I'm not a person of color. Like I'm not an LGBT person that was taught that their core sexuality was evil or sinful. Like I understand that it was a lot of privilege that allows me to look back with gratitude. Hold on, go ahead, take over.

Leaving Privilege Behind and Finding Graduation

Lance Allred [02:47:09] But you sacrificed more by leaving that privilege behind. That's to be acknowledged. You had the most to lose by leaving a system that was rigged your way.

John Dehlin [02:47:21] Right.

Lance Allred [02:47:23] And I will also add to all this beautiful stuff you're saying context matters to come out again, just being just a guru who's just regurgitating things. But you don't have. The context is important as the world is being asked to evolve, as humanity is being asked to evolve. Having people come from such extreme left brained systems, religious or capitalist, doesn't matter. Having them people come from that context and pioneer, this is going to trigger. But this is you honoring pioneer ancestry and that DNA in your blood by saying they stopped here, I'm going to go here and keep moving this needle. And so for anyone who's in this space where they're angry at the church, honor the context it has given you to grow and continue to bring humanity to a heart centered place. If you know how cold it is over here in Left brain, logical, no emotions, everything suppressed. And you pioneer within yourself the new neurological pathways for not just yourself, but for your posterity to move it into a heart centered living. What a beautiful journey that is. Honor yourself. What a beautiful arc. That's a mythological journey of a hero right there. So you can be angry at the church, grieve it. I'm not telling you. Don't grieve it. Go through the grieving process and as you come out of it, you will honor the context and the platform from which you came and be able to honor how much you have grown from there.

John Dehlin [02:49:25] And when I talk to fully ex Mormons who are attempting to thrive and to actuate. Fully actuate it, I really do view sort of graduation from ex Mormonism or post Mormonism as the ability to look back at the Mormon Church and to say thank you. Yeah, thank you for all you gave me. Because there was good. There was, as much as people don't want to admit it, there was a ton of good.

Lance Allred [02:49:52] We wouldn't have stayed if there wasn't good. It would, yeah. If there wasn't any good, we never would have stayed for anything. So there has to be some good in the.

John Dehlin [02:50:00] There. So you. So the pinnacle, when you, I think when you've really grown and matured and become the phoenix rising from the ashes, when you've thrived, you have been able to look back at the church and not just say it was all evil and all bad and all toxic and all, you know, you say thank you for all the good and thank you for all the hard because it led to additional growth. And so the, for me, the pinnacle, the graduation from ex Mormonism or post Mormonism is, is looking back with gratitude

Lance Allred [02:50:34] is the seventh principle of perseverance, which is the last one in my book for a reason, which, what you talk is the graduation, which is gratitude and forgiveness. Forgiveness and gratitude, it's the same thing. We're just using different words, but basically the same thing, if not the same words anyway.

John Dehlin [02:50:49] And so forgiving, forgiving the Mormon Church or the FLDS church or the All Red Church group. How. What does that mean? What does that look like?

Lance Allred [02:50:56] It just means being able to say thank you so much for the context you've given me to be able to grow from here and go on a hero's journey around the world. Literally around the world.

John Dehlin [02:51:10] Yeah. Yeah.

Lance Allred [02:51:13] And to learn so many things from this extreme position to this extreme position has given me so many pearls of wisdom for myself that I am now able to be in a position to Pass on to others. And so that truly is Alpha, being able to do something so uncomfortable, as acidic as it originally sounds, you mean, I gotta tell those. Thank you. That's a very difficult thing to do. False bravado. 1980 alpha male would never do that. A new Alpha is able to sit there and say, I see the beauty of this entire journey and I have true gratitude for it.

John Dehlin [02:52:08] Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure there's going to be people that are like, I'm not there yet.

Lance Allred [02:52:15] That's okay. That's okay. And I would tell people who aren't there yet. Yet. You cannot fast forward the grieving cycle.

John Dehlin [02:52:23] Yeah.

Lance Allred [02:52:24] There is no set timeline for the grieving cycle. You have to go through all of them. There are no shortcuts. But as you know, refiners, fire. That grieving cycle is the most powerful rite of passage that we can experience in this life. So don't run away from it, to go through it. As painful as it is.

John Dehlin [02:52:47] Lean in to the discomfort with acceptance and compassion and integrity and accountability. Accountability.

Lance Allred [02:52:57] All of it. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:53:00] Yeah. To emerge with forgiveness and gratitude through your transformation. Listeners, viewers, the book is the new Alpha Male, how to Win the Game when the Rules Are Changing by Lance Allred said. I just want to say I almost didn't do today's interview because I had. I had the thought in my mind. I'll just tell you this, Lance now on camera, and then we can talk about it afterwards. One of the most transformational books in my life and with Margi, was A New Earth.

Lance Allred [02:53:29] It's a good book.

John Dehlin [02:53:31] A New Earth, you know, came out around 2007. Oprah made a big deal about it. And, you know, it's basically secular Buddhism.

Lance Allred [02:53:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:41] Through the lens of Eckhart Tolle. Another great podcast is Secular Buddhism that my friend Noah Rochetta. But, you know, it's. It's wisdom. And like you said, Jesus was the greatest Buddhist there ever was. And so. So, like, you can even apply this to Christianity. But. But all this transformational stuff can be found in Christianity if you're looking for it.

Lance Allred [02:53:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:59] It can be found in the Book of Mormon, if you're looking for it. It could be found in. In, you know, lots of places. But. But the Bible. What I was going to say is I was. I was loving. This book is so dense or thick, and I don't mean that in a pejorative way. There's so much wisdom in every paragraph that I'm thinking, we can't, you know, this just re you reading the book is what, six, seven hours?

Lance Allred [02:54:22] Six hours.

John Dehlin [02:54:23] But to like really explore it and to, you know, is gonna, you know, takes.

Lance Allred [02:54:28] It could be like they kept me at 60,000 words. Can you believe that?

John Dehlin [02:54:31] Yeah.

Lance Allred [02:54:31] They said it can't be more than 60,000 words. I'm like, I could talk for a while, but we got to condense this bad boy.

John Dehlin [02:54:36] No, but there's not, there's just, there's laying it out, but then there's apply exploring it and, and applying it. It's, it's a multi season podcast. And so I already mentioned this to you in a phone call. What I, what, what Oprah and Eckhart did is they, they sold the book, but then they did 10 podcast episodes where for each of the book chapters, they would basically do like a book club where they would say, okay, listeners, they did this to all of Oprah's. Imagine all of Oprah's audience. You know, we're talking millions of people. Okay, listening audience read chapter one. And then what we're going to do is Eckhart and Oprah are going to hold a live video chat. They're going to lay out some of the main principles and then listeners are going to call in and, and share their reactions to the chapter.

Lance Allred [02:55:26] Interesting.

John Dehlin [02:55:27] And their discussions of the chapter.

Lance Allred [02:55:28] Chapter.

John Dehlin [02:55:29] And they did that over 10 chapters. And there's so many people when they read A New Earth, they're like, okay, I can kind of see what Eckhart was saying here. They listen to it, but then when they listen to the Oprah and Eckhart discussion of each chapter as a companion to the book, along with the call ins, people calling in and applying it and exploring it in different, from different points of view and perspective gifts. It's a much more comprehensive and meaningful experience than just reading, reading the book and, or listening to the book. So I, I'm just going to put this out into the universe. Maybe it'll happen, maybe it won't. I think it would be a huge gift to the world. You would be a huge gift to the world to consider starting a podcast around the idea of, of call it alpha Male, call it Confronting Toxic Masculinity Talk. Call it the New Masculinity with Lance Allred.

Lance Allred [02:56:31] Masculinity redefined.

John Dehlin [02:56:32] We can figure masculinity redefined, whatever it is, but where it's basically you're taking on a paragraph of this book or a chapter of this book or how a few pages and I think there's multi seasons of a podcast here where you could really. Because men need role Models for this men. You know, I'll give you an example. Like Jordan Peterson, who I actually have respect for his intellect.

Lance Allred [02:56:59] Yeah. Intellectually he's very smart and for many

John Dehlin [02:57:01] of the principles that he has talked about. But Jordan Peterson has also sort of been co opted. What's that?

Lance Allred [02:57:09] Emotionally, is a, is a different thing. Go ahead.

John Dehlin [02:57:11] Yeah, there probably is some opportunities for growth there in terms of emotion. But also. So, you know, whether it's Jordan Peterson or who's the YouTuber. Conservative YouTuber guy, Harvard grad.

Lance Allred [02:57:24] Oh, not Ben.

John Dehlin [02:57:26] Is it Ben Shapiro.

Lance Allred [02:57:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:28] Like there's a lot of these thinkers have been really co opted by the right.

Lance Allred [02:57:32] Right.

John Dehlin [02:57:32] And that's not bad. Like, but what we're saying here is it's not about right or left.

Lance Allred [02:57:36] No.

John Dehlin [02:57:37] It's not about Republican or Democrat. It's not about Trump or Biden. It's about something in the middle. Middle. Something that's integrated.

Lance Allred [02:57:45] I'm going to interrupt you.

John Dehlin [02:57:46] And what we don't have is someone who's not. Not the reaction to Jordan Peterson.

Lance Allred [02:57:52] No.

John Dehlin [02:57:53] Or Ben Shapiro. Somebody. And I think Sam Harris is trying to do this some.

Lance Allred [02:57:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:59] But we need male, we need leaders in. For men and for women who are trying to navigate that middle ground. Nonpartisan, non political.

Lance Allred [02:58:11] Not, you know, extreme.

John Dehlin [02:58:12] Non extreme. Not hating religion.

Lance Allred [02:58:15] Right.

John Dehlin [02:58:15] But not a slave to religion.

Finding the Middle Path and Closing Thoughts

Lance Allred [02:58:17] I, I appreciate the invite and let's talk more on it. And I will add, I'm so bad glad you brought up the middle. Because in the myth of the Holy Grail, Percival, who found the Holy Grail, his name in old French literally translates to through the middle. Through the middle is how we find the Holy Grail, which is enlightenment or whatever word you want to use. That's the myth, the Holy Grail. People think it's this cup. The myth is the metaphor. It's enlightenment or nirvana or whatever. But Percival is through the middle. That's what it means. So not in neither extremes or in absolutes, but through the middle. So I'm glad you brought that up.

John Dehlin [02:59:03] And, and that's what we need that. I think that's what we need politically. Like my parents, every time I bring up politics, they're like, you know, the old conversation was, well, I hate Trump. And then they're like, I hate Biden now. I'm like, how about I hate partisanship? Yeah, that's what I say now. Well, I don't think Trump is the enemy. I don't think Biden is the enemy. I don't think Trump's the savior. I don't think Biden's the savior. The enemy is partisanship.

Lance Allred [02:59:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:26] The savior is bipartisanship. It's the. The enemy isn't religion per se and the savior isn't secularism. The. And even in your book, you try and talk about a new spirituality, even if it's Mother Earth or sense of meaning and purpose.

Lance Allred [02:59:41] Right.

John Dehlin [02:59:41] What if the solution isn't this dichotomous warlike us and them tribalism.

Lance Allred [02:59:49] Right.

John Dehlin [02:59:49] But some type of, some type of integrating unification that comes through the middle way.

Lance Allred [02:59:56] Yeah, it's through the middle. That's, that's how we bring it together. But that it really is whether no Western logic is external, Eastern logic says Christ is Christ consciousness. But that's very much through the middle. If you really study and sit it, it's. It sit with it, it's through the middle. That's much of his teachings. And so I'm glad you're bringing that up. But that's so much. But that is, again, that is, is the message that the athlete is teaching. When we're in the zone, when we're heart centered, we're in the middle. We're masculine and we're feminine. So next time you watch a basketball game, notice that lesson.

John Dehlin [03:00:38] Yeah. I love it. Yeah. All right, everyone. The book is the new Alpha Male, available in hardback at Amazon and Barnes and Noble and wherever books are sold. How to Win the Game when the Rules Are Changing by Lance Allred. There's also an audio version of this book that I listened to, that I

Lance Allred [03:00:57] paid for, Kindle and Audible. It's all there.

John Dehlin [03:00:59] And then how do people follow you if they want to support what you do?

Lance Allred [03:01:02] Oh, yeah, it's Lancelot Red41 as the handle for all the social media outlets. My jersey number 41 Lancelot Red 40.

John Dehlin [03:01:10] Is that your Gmail as well? Is there?

Lance Allred [03:01:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All that lance allred41gmail or lance lancealred41.com yeah, that's how you get a hold of me is universal across the board. Lance Allred 41 and I appreciate this opportunity and I have loved to coming back to you. You what, four years now, four years later and just seeing and noticing and feeling how much you continually grow and how you have moved through the grieving cycle. And your energy's lighter, physically, you're lighter and it's just beautiful to see. And I'm so glad that you're in a position to not just be talking, but to walking in beauty for people who follow you. And you're doing a Wonderful job, and I have to commend you with that.

John Dehlin [03:02:03] Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you. And as I read this book, I felt I have a long, long way to go because I still struggle with acceptance, with compassion, with forgiveness. I still have things to learn about accountability and integrity and transformation. So I'm. I'm just saying I'm. I'm way still on the journey, brother. And this book is gonna.

Lance Allred [03:02:26] You always will be. Yeah, I will. Yes. Again, it's a way of life. It's not a system. It's just a way of life.

John Dehlin [03:02:31] Not in a right arrival station. Right.

Lance Allred [03:02:33] Yeah. Yeah. Lots of train stations to arrive at. It will continue to take us elsewhere.

John Dehlin [03:02:38] Well, thanks for helping me on my journey, Lance.

Lance Allred [03:02:40] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:02:41] And listeners, thanks for joining us. Hope you've enjoyed this. Give Lance your kudos. You can hire him as a public speaker. He. He speaks at corporations and events and conferences all over the country and world. You can buy his book. You can follow him on social media and. And follow. You can watch his TED Talk. You can share his stuff everywhere. Support Lance. And thanks for supporting me. Donors make all this possible. Thank you to everyone who makes the Open Storage foundation and Mormon Stories podcast possible. One out of a thousand of my listeners or viewers actually donate. I'm losing donors and viewers all the time because of COVID and people just lose interest and graduate and move on, which is good. So if you want to see programming like this continue, please become a monthly donor. And I'll do this for as long as there's support. And when there's no longer support support, I'll go do other cool stuff that's probably a little bit less painful. So thanks everyone for joining us. Love you guys. Thanks again, Lance. And you. Take care. Okay, brother.

Lance Allred [03:03:37] Thank you, John.

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