Welcome and Introducing Drew Manning

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1431

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 15, 2021, and we are broadcasting to you live today from Mormon Story Studios in Holiday, Utah. And I'm super excited for today's interview. Today we're interviewing someone who has a larger social media following than I do, which isn't saying a lot, but it's someone who has done really cool things. His name is Drew Manning. Hey, Drew. Welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Drew Manning [00:00:30] John, thank you so much for having me on. It's a pleasure to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:32] For those of you who don't know, Drew Manning is known throughout the country, maybe even world, as the founder of Fit to Fat 2 Fit. And we're gonna talk about what that is in just a minute. But before we do, I'm just gonna welcome Kara Burrell. Hey, Kara.

Guest [00:00:46] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:46] Thanks for joining us.

Guest [00:00:47] Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] So for those who don't know Kara Burrell, Kara is a TikTok sp sensation. She goes by. What's that?

Guest [00:00:57] Cancel this podcast.

Drew Manning [00:00:58] You've already said TikTok Guru. Right.

John Dehlin [00:01:01] Kara goes by Nuance Ho on TikTok. She does an amazing job. Check her out. But she is joining us today as a producer. She's just helping with the techie stuff behind the scenes and maybe she'll even jump in to correct us or to comment here and there with wit and wisdom. But, Kara, it's good to have you.

Guest [00:01:18] Yeah, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:01:19] Anything you want to say?

Guest [00:01:20] Oh, did I want to say I'm going to save all of my good things to say for later, but yeah, I'm just happy to be here and be awesome.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] Well, it's good to have you.

Guest [00:01:28] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] Thanks for joining. Okay, so we're excited for today's interview. It's going to be about two, two and a half hours. It's not going to be an epic multi hour thing just because Drew's a busy man and we're just grateful for the time that he's been willing to give us. But aside from being the founder of Fit to Fat 2 Fit, Drew Manning was also raised Mormon and he's got his own Mormon story. And I just want to give a disclaimer that Drew's audience is gonna be tuning in. Many of them, probably most of them, have no idea what Mormons are. And as I understand it, Drew's never really talked about his Mormonism much to his audience. So we will be doing our best to define terms to the broader audience. So those of you who have been Mormon for a Long time. Who have been listeners for a long time. Please be patient. We want the rest of the world to understand what we're talking about. So without any further ado. Drew, you've been on, like, major television networks and shows. Can you give yourself a proper introduction? Cause you deserve a better one than what I did.

Drew Manning [00:02:20] That's okay. First of all, it's a pleasure to be here. Yeah. My name is Drew Manning. I have a brand called Fit2Fat2Fit, which, you know, you can go and Google it. What? That is basically in a nutshell. I did this crazy experiment as a personal trainer and someone who's never been overweight. I intentionally gained about 75 pounds and documented that journey of gaining weight on my social media, and the story kind of went viral, you know, online. I went on TV shows like Jay Leno, Dr. Oz, Good Morning America, the View, Dr. Drew, a bunch of other ones. And this crazy experiment kind of caught on, because here I am, or here I was someone who had never been overweight, you know, ripped, shredded, like most personal trainers are. And I wanted to better understand what it was like to be overweight so that I could relate to my clients. And so I did this Fit to Fat to Fit experiment. It kind of went viral, went on a bunch of TV shows. I wrote a book. The book became a New York Times bestseller. The book eventually got turned into its own TV show called Fit to Fat to Fit, where then we put other trainers through that process so that they could become more empathetic and have a better understanding on the mental and emotional side of transformation. And so that aired on A and E. We had two seasons of that TV show. And, yeah, that's kind of, you know, my claim to fame, I guess you can say, or how I came to be. And most people know me as the Fit to Fat to Fit guy. And the book is called Fit to Fat to Fit. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:03:43] And I guess we should give a shout out to Dre Nord from the Real Housewives of Salt Lake episode. Dre's the dear friend Dre of Gay and Dre. But Dre's the one. Dre. I guess you and Dre are friends. She's the one who recommended I interviewed you.

Drew Manning [00:03:57] Yeah, yeah, we go to the gym together. I commented on her episode, and she's like, oh, yeah, you should go on John's podcast. I'm like, I don't know him. But I was like, if you want to introduce us, sure. You know, so. And here we are.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] Yeah. Well, fun. Well, thanks for coming on. We're so honored to have you. And let's just begin. So let's start with your Mormon story. Tell us, tell us how it all began for you.

Drew's Mormon Upbringing and Family Life

Drew Manning [00:04:20] Yeah, this is awesome because most of my interviews that I do start with fit to fat to fit. So it's kind of a breath of fresh air to go back and talk about the, you know, the real me, you know, so I grew up in Southern California in a family of 11 brothers and sisters. And I guess before I even go into this, I can I just say this? I just want to make sure that people watching this understand that my Mormon story of where I am today is coming from a place of healing. I've done a lot of work on myself, personal development, self help type of work, to get to a place where I'm coming from a place of healing. I don't hold on to resentment. I don't hold on to blame. I don't hold on to anger. And so as you hear me talk about my Mormon story, whether it's about my family or the culture I grew up in or, you know, leaders in the church, I want to make sure people understand that the reason I'm, I'm willing to do this interview is because I'm not here to cast stones. I'm not here to stick it to the man and try and bring down any kind of organization or say, hey, I was wronged and I'm mad at these people. It truly is coming from a place of healing. And my hope is to give people that are listening to this courage and, and hope that no matter how angry you are or how justified you are in holding onto resentment as the victim, there is hope on the other side. And you can get to these places of, of, of being at peace finally. And, and coming from a place of healing. So with that being said, thank you for letting me talk about, for me, that's really important.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] And believers are sensitive too. They, they're going to say, oh, you came on Mormon stories, maybe you hate the church, you're trying to tear the church down. And yeah, I think literally no one, maybe, maybe one person I've ever interviewed has that goal. Right?

Drew Manning [00:06:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] So that's not yours, right?

Drew Manning [00:06:10] No, that's not my goal. That's not who I am. That' brand is about. That's. So I grew up in a family of 11 brothers and sisters. My parents, you know, blessed them. They, I don't know why they decided to have 11 kids, but they did. And I was number seven. Eight boys, three girls, and my perception of the culture I grew up in being Mormon, being raised in a kind of a tough love environment and playing football and wrestling, doing those sports was that I was never good enough. And like I said, that's my perception based off of the culture that I was raised in with in my family, the culture of the church for me and the culture of sports was beat yourself up, discipline yourself more because you're not good enough. And that's. And by disciplining yourself and beating yourself up is how you become better and become more perfect. And the scriptures kind of led me to that conclusion as well as like, okay, I need to punish myself. I need to suffer so that I. So that I can become perfect. Right. That was kind of the goal.

John Dehlin [00:07:10] So what types of Mormons were your parents and what type of Mormon family were you?

Drew Manning [00:07:15] Very strict. Very. We grew up very strict Mormons. You know, my parents, I think their parents were converts. So they grew up in the church as kids and. Yeah, they did. We Woke up at 5am for scripture study as kids, you know, and we would have to read one verse, you know, each kid and, you know, early morning seminary, you know, family home, evening, every Monday night. You know, we didn't miss. We didn't miss church for anything. We were shamed or guilted if we didn't make it to church on time or if we missed church. It was a big deal, you know, so very strict upbringing. And like I said, that kind of played into the. The sports culture I grew up in as well, where, hey, discipline. You miss the tackle, here's your punishment. If you sin, here's your punishment. And so that kind of mentality was how I grew up as a kid, where I'm like, okay, if I sin, if I mess up in life, there's gonna be some type of punishment, like either. You know, I remember my dad, you know, I got an A minus on something. He's like, why don't you get an A plus? And I'm like, oh, yeah, I don't know. I. I don't know like that. It was that kind of upbringing that had me to, you know, kind of pushed me to. To discipline myself and want to become better. Cause I felt like I was never good enough. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:08:25] What was his career? Did you already tell us this?

Drew Manning [00:08:27] No. My dad was a software engineer.

John Dehlin [00:08:29] Okay.

Drew Manning [00:08:30] You know, and, you know, my dad is part Hawaiian, so he grew up in Hawaii. And, you know, that's the thing is, like, I look back at my parents and I don't blame them because of course, they did the best they could of course, they are product of their environments. And so that was the tough love mentality worked for them, I guess. And that's kind of what was passed on, passed on down to me.

John Dehlin [00:08:49] Hawaiian Mormons are kind of proud to be Hawaiian Mormons, right?

Drew Manning [00:08:52] Yeah. The Polynesian community, I think a lot of them gravitate towards the Mormon religion just because of the family, the community, ohana, the mana they, they feel in these, you know, whether it's at church and so. But there was this discipline side of it too, where it's very strict. Either you're a plus or you're a failure. Right. That's the upbringing that I had. So, yeah, as a kid, you know, I definitely beat myself up a lot. I didn't think I was good enough. And so. And I was never once told, you know, hey, good job, hey, you did great. It was like, hey, you need to do this. Hey, you messed up during the game, you missed a tackle, you did this. You need, you need to get an A plus, you need to be perfect. Right. That was my percept perception of how I was raised.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] Was your mom a stay at home mom?

Drew Manning [00:09:40] Stay at home mom? Yep. Try and take care of 11 kids.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] 11 kids, yeah.

Guest [00:09:44] Did you say where you grew up as well?

Drew Manning [00:09:45] San Diego. San Diego until I was about 13 and then we moved to Virginia. Oh yeah. East coast. So West Coast. East Coast. And you know, there was a, there was a different shift from the west coast to the east coast of growing up in the culture on the east coast versus the west Coast. And you know, I was, we were true blue Mormon family. Like, like I said, we did all

John Dehlin [00:10:07] the hardcore stuff, you know, and in birth order you already told us.

Drew Manning [00:10:12] But number seven.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] You're seven. Okay, so right. Kind of mid, late mid. Okay. So. So do you remember primary and, and kind of Cub Scout years? Anything interesting happened to you in during those times?

Drew Manning [00:10:27] Not really.

John Dehlin [00:10:27] Mormon kid.

Drew Manning [00:10:28] Not nothing, I wouldn't say too interesting other than the fact that we were taught to kind of just like, don't rock the boat, don't ask questions, fall in line, do what you're told to do. And just like, you know, that's the way we were raised. So going to church was go to church, don't rock the boat, don't ask questions, don't be disobedient, like, pay attention, be reverent, all these things. And so for us it was kind of like, okay, I don't want to get in trouble, so I'm just going to do what my parents tell me to. Do.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] So did you enjoy it? Did you enjoy church as a kid, as a Cub Scout does?

Drew Manning [00:11:01] I don't know if any kids truly enjoy it, to be honest with you. Looking back on it. It was something we were forced to do. We were forced to do. Like, we were forced to go, and whether we liked it or not, we had to go. And I don't, so I don't really. I wouldn't say I enjoyed it, you know.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] Yeah.

Drew Manning [00:11:18] But it was something we did.

John Dehlin [00:11:19] Yeah. Okay.

Drew Manning [00:11:20] And, you know, there was treats. So maybe as a kid, I like the treats or liked certain aspects of it, but I mean, let's be honest, it was kind of boring.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] Yeah.

Drew Manning [00:11:28] And it is boring.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] Yeah.

Drew Manning [00:11:30] You know, especially for kids.

Strict Mormon Household and Teen Years

John Dehlin [00:11:31] So. So once you started moving into your teen years, for most Mormon kids, there's early morning seminary where you go to. You go to church outside of Utah, you go at 6am, maybe 6 to 7am, get religious instruction every. Every morning of your high school day. Did you go to early morning seminary, and if so, what was that like for you?

Drew Manning [00:11:52] I did. Out in Virginia, I went to early morning seminary. And as a teenage kid, waking up that early in the morning is hell. Like, that was so hard. But we would do scripture study, then I would make it to early morning seminary. And I. I despised it because I was so tired. And I went through this phase. Once I got good at sports, I kind of went through this and I went through, you know, puberty, this hormonal change where I was like, I'm too good for this stuff. I'm too like Boy Scouts. That's embarrassing. Like, I would get made fun of if I went to football practice with my Boy Scout shirt on. Like, I was kind of ashamed of. Of being Mormon, to be honest with you, because it was uncool.

John Dehlin [00:12:25] What sports were you doing?

Drew Manning [00:12:27] Football and wrestling. Okay, so, like, yeah, being starting in

John Dehlin [00:12:30] middle school, like, really early.

Drew Manning [00:12:31] Yeah. Or yeah. Even elementary school.

John Dehlin [00:12:33] Okay.

Drew Manning [00:12:33] I started, like, really young.

John Dehlin [00:12:35] What position were you playing?

Drew Manning [00:12:37] You know, at Pop Warner level, any position, everyone's the same size. So I played offensive tackle, played tight end, played linebacker, safety, like all different positions.

Guest [00:12:48] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:12:49] And wrestling.

Drew Manning [00:12:51] That's a hard sport.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] Sport. Yeah.

Drew Manning [00:12:52] And that's the, that kind of mentality too. Carried over into religion where I'm like, oh, this is perfect. Because you are disciplined to the point where you're like, okay, to become better, you have to discipline yourself more, beat yourself up more to make it to the next level. And that's kind of the mentality I grew up with.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Okay, so are you saying you didn't really get into seminary and like it?

Drew Manning [00:13:11] No, I did. I had to go. I had to go. I didn't like it. Funny story. My seminary teacher, she had a record of never failing a student and all of her years of teaching seminary, so she would never fail a student. So as long as I showed up, I. She passed me. So I showed up. I. I showed up and was too cool to, like, participate, so I just put my head down and, you know, I wasn't the best kid back then. You know, my. My sophomore, junior, senior years because I. Football and wrestling was my life.

John Dehlin [00:13:42] Okay.

Drew Manning [00:13:43] Academics was like, you know, I was like a typical jock.

John Dehlin [00:13:46] Okay.

Guest [00:13:46] I didn't realize people could fail seminary.

Drew Manning [00:13:49] I don't. I don't know. But she gave me a D. You

John Dehlin [00:13:52] have to really work hard.

Drew Manning [00:13:52] She gave me like a D. What

Guest [00:13:53] happens if you fail? Go to hell.

Drew Manning [00:13:55] Like, what, you don't pass with a certificate, maybe. I don't know.

Guest [00:13:59] Oh, wow.

Drew Manning [00:14:00] Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what, but she kind of was proud about every student passes. And so I showed up. Me and my friend, he picked me up. We were like the wrestling guys. We were the jock guys. And I just put my head down for seminary because you're so tired. Like, how are you gonna really absorb that stuff and be like, oh, yeah, this is gonna make me a better person? I don't. I don't know how.

Guest [00:14:22] Yeah, that definitely makes a unique Mormon upbringing from all of your other sports friends, where people are, what they're probably sleeping in or they're getting better gains than you are. Cause you're out at 5am sleeping.

Drew Manning [00:14:33] Yeah, I was like, super, super sleep deprived. So it was. It definitely was. Was hard to navigate that. But, you know, I passed seminary. I guess we can say I passed seminary.

Guest [00:14:45] Did you feel like you had, like, spiritual inclinations to spiritual experiences? Yeah, like spiritual experiences, like a connection with God growing up. Or is it more like performative? Something that you felt like you just.

Drew Manning [00:14:55] I think the first time I kind of felt, quote, unquote, the spirit, if you can see my air quotes here, was when I went to the San Diego Temple dedication. I was like 12 or something, and I. We sang the Spirit of God, like, in the temple. And I was like, this is amazing. Like, it's the best experience of my life. I got the tingles and I'm like, okay, maybe that was the spirit. You know, that's what I was taught. And so that was like the first time I felt the spirit. But then other than that, I didn't feel it 90 of the time. It was just like, going through the motions, just like most kids. You know, you're going through the motions. You're not really. I don't know. I really didn't feel connected to it. I didn't even learn about my religion until probably my mission. I didn't put in any effort to become a better Mormon until my mission.

John Dehlin [00:15:38] You were just kind of doing it because you were forced to.

Drew Manning [00:15:40] Exactly. Yep. And that's kind of.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] So that spiritual experience, when it happened, you said it was during a temple dedication.

Drew Manning [00:15:46] Dedication, San Diego Temple.

John Dehlin [00:15:47] What did. What did that mean to you when that happened? So you're tell us that experience.

Drew Manning [00:15:51] Yeah, so when I was 12 years old, like, by the way, the San Diego temple is probably one of, like, the most beautiful temples, in my opinion. And it was. I got to go to it because we were living out there, and, you know, I was there with my whole family, and we were singing the Spirit of God, and it was like, you know, hundreds or of people in this congregation, and it's a. The Spirit of God is like, a popular hymn in the Mormon Church. And we were all singing it, and it felt cool. Like, it felt like those tingles. It felt like really positive, powerful experience. And I was 12, so I was too young to really maybe understand, like, oh, this is the spirit testifying that the church is true. It was more. So this is a positive experience. I felt good in the temple, and I still remember that to this day.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] Right.

Drew Manning [00:16:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] Okay, so when it happened, did. Did you encode it as the church is true?

Drew Manning [00:16:40] No, not at the time.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] Okay. Okay.

Drew Manning [00:16:42] I think later on I looked back, like, oh, yeah, I started to feel the spirit, you know, as a preteen.

The Shame Cycle and Self-Worth in the Church

John Dehlin [00:16:47] So one of the things that I ask everyone about is just kind of the shame cycle, because I. I've started to realize that something that's kind of baked into the key secret recipe of Mormonism is unfortunately, and I don't think this is intentional, it's getting kids to feel like there's something wrong with them, like they're broken or defective. And if you can get kids to feel that way, then they feel like they need the church, they need Christ, they need the atonement, they need their bishop, they need the sacrament to make them whole. And so I ask everyone the same question. Did you experience kind of that shame cycle, that shame spiral as a Mormon teen? And if so, what are you able to tell us about that?

Drew Manning [00:17:31] Yeah, 100%. So I have my own podcast, and on my my episode 100, which is by far my most downloaded podcast, I kind of open up and talk about the guilt and shame cycle that started from like probably preteen teenage years. As a normal teenage kid, but with the pressure of the perfectionism of the church, you go through a lot of self hate. And like I said, I already grew up with that mentality. If I'm not good enough and I need to discipline myself even more to become more perfect and then add on hormonal changes, puberty, access to pornography. Because in the Mormon church, pornography is taught as a very, very serious sin. So. But as a normal teenage boy, your hormones are raging. And in the 90s, like, you know, like friends had magazines and it was like the most exciting thing for me. But I remember even like Gordon B. Hinckley in one of his like precessions was saying, I remember him saying, pornography is exciting, but it's deadly, it's dangerous. And I'm like, that kind of solidified in my brain where it's like, it's so exciting because it's this forbidden fruit. It's this thing that I know is bad to look at, but it's, it makes me want it or desire it more.

John Dehlin [00:18:43] Especially when they're talking about it all the time.

Drew Manning [00:18:45] Exactly, yeah. When they're talking about all the time and the pressure you have on yourself to not look or not be excited by it, it's almost impossible, right? I would say it's almost impossible and not for everyone, but for most kids to have access to that. And so, yeah, I'm totally fine. Open. Talking about pornography as a teenage kid, guilt, shame, self hate, beating yourself up. That was an endless cycle. For me personally, was the pornography, the forbidden fruit syndrome that I, you know, talk to people about of like, hey, because it's this forbidden fruit, kind of makes you desire it more. Right? It's not normalized. I can't talk to my parents, I can't go talk to my church leaders about it because I'll feel judged and I'll feel dirty and I'll feel ashamed. So I'm just gonna keep it inside. Because, you know, going to a church leader in the Mormon Church is difficult because you go to them with your sins and say, hey, I'm looking at pornography. And they say, okay, here is your punishment. And they don't say the word punishment that you go through the repentance process, but as a kid you process what they're telling you as a punishment. Because every Sunday with a serve sacrament, they pass around bread and water and it's drilled in your head. You can only partake of the bread and water, the sacrament if you're worthy. And if you're not worthy and you partake of it, it's even a more serious sin. Right. That, that is drilled in our head as kids in the Mormon Church. And they pass around the bread and water so that everyone can see who partakes of it. Right. The leaders are up there on front, in the front, the bishop and, and his counselors. Counselors. I almost said disciples. Yeah, like almost watching you, like, who's taking it, who's not. And as a teenage kid, it's so, what's the word? Dehumanizing to have this bread and water passed around. You were told by your bishop because you looked at pornography or because you masturbated, you can't partake of it. And your family's right there, your friends are right there. People you know are like, maybe watching that kind of pressure as a teenage kid is really hard to grab it and not take it and hope no one notices. But the, the shame, the guilt you feel because you can't partake of it is really hard as a kid. And looking at pornography. Masturbation is a serious sin in the Mormon Church and you're not able to take the bread and water for X amount of weeks. So that's what I mean by, hey, going to your church leader and getting a punishment is very similar to in the sports world. If you mess up, there's a punishment. If you mess up at home, if you are disobedient, there's gonna be a punishment. We were punished as kids all the time. And this was just another thing that stuck in my head of here's, here's something I messed up on and here's my punishment. And this is how I get better, is by punishing myself more and more and more to eventually become perfect. And that kind of cycle is what I'm trying to help people break.

John Dehlin [00:21:47] How did you punish yourself at the time?

Drew Manning [00:21:49] Self hate, you know, self sabotage, you know, doing stupid things, trying to find escapes, trying to fit in with other people, given into peer pressure to be liked. All kinds of ways. I think teenage kids navigate that world of wanting to be loved, accepted, understood, appreciated. They go through this self sabotage of like, I'll just, I'll just be a horrible person as long, as long as someone likes me. You know, maybe it's these bad kids that smoke weed, or maybe it's these kids that drink. Maybe they'll accept me and, and you know, because you Know you're not good enough to, you know, partake of the sacrament at church or you know, past the interview, you know, so if, so

John Dehlin [00:22:36] if the Mormon church says don't drink, don't do drugs, don't have sex, be nice to people, be honest.

Drew Manning [00:22:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] Then if you feel like you're unworthy, if you feel like you're broken, then sometimes you can just say, well, I better act the part because I'm broken. And so you might act out in some of those ways as a way to self sabotage because you feel like you're just broken and unworthy.

Drew Manning [00:22:57] You feel like you're a failure already, so why not do failure like things you're. The, the thing that's drilled into Mormon kids heads is that sexual sin is a sin next to murder. And this is something maybe people outside of the church don't understand is the seriousness of that that's drilled into teenage kids. No masturbation, no pornography, no sex before marriage. And if you do, your sin is up there with murder.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] Yeah.

Drew Manning [00:23:22] And so as a kid processing that,

John Dehlin [00:23:24] people don't understand that. It's. The stakes are that high.

Drew Manning [00:23:26] The stakes next to murder.

John Dehlin [00:23:28] We're not making that up. Right?

Drew Manning [00:23:29] Yeah. That's not, that's not hearsay. That is the truth. It's, it's, it's in the scriptures in the Book of Mormon. I believe, I don't remember where because I don't, I don't have the memorized anymore. But yeah, it's in, it's in the scriptures.

John Dehlin [00:23:40] You're 15 thinking that you're next to a murder. Is that exaggerating?

Drew Manning [00:23:44] No, that's not exaggerating.

John Dehlin [00:23:45] Yeah.

Drew Manning [00:23:46] Because that's what we're taught. And so that's the kind of self hate that I had. I'm like, you're a failure. So what I decided to do, my, my self preservation mechanism I use was to just hide it. I was like, this is so, this is so hard for me to go to my bishop every, all the, every time I mess up, which as a teenage kid, I mean, come on, you're going to mess up based on those rules daily. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:11] Monthly. Somewhere in there.

Drew Manning [00:24:13] It's so humiliating and demoralizing to not to have a punishment attached to it. And so I was like, well, I'm just gonna not, I'm just gonna pretend it doesn't exist. I'm going to suppress those emotions of self hate and lust and desire for sexual things and just pretend they don't exist. I'm not going to talk to my parents I'm not going to talk to my church leaders, and I'm just going to keep it in.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] And so you also learn to hide.

Drew Manning [00:24:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] To be inauthentic, and you learn to lie. And those are things that, in theory, a religion shouldn't. And it's. Again, we're not saying that the Mormon Church is like, let's make everyone liars. Like, that's not how it works. They want people to be good. This is just how they do it. But unfortunately, how it ends up is that it makes people learn to hide, suppress and lie.

Drew Manning [00:24:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] And feel like they're worthless.

Drew Manning [00:24:58] Yeah. You don't feel it's a safe environment to confess and talk about those things because it's all. You're all. You're broken down. Like, it's like you're a sinner. You've done this horrible thing. You know, there's not a lot of hope. Like, hey, you're still a good kid. You're still a good person. So you don't feel safe, like, going to my parents, I didn't feel safe going to them because I knew that they wouldn't understand.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] Right.

Drew Manning [00:25:17] And I would just feel judged. And going to my. My leaders in the church was like, okay, here's your punishment. And to be, you know, publicly humiliated by not being able to take the bread and water, you know, for me, that was my perception of, like, I don't want to go through that, so I'm just going to pretend it doesn't exist. So I learned from a very young age to lie, suppress those emotions. And if it did happen, it was just like, okay, pretend it didn't happen.

John Dehlin [00:25:39] So how did that, how did this all play out in high school? So did you do football and wrestling in high school?

Drew Manning [00:25:44] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:45] And then you're. And in college.

Drew Manning [00:25:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:47] So how did your high school end up?

Drew Manning [00:25:49] Yeah, I kind of had my rebellious phase. My. You know, my mom always reminds me my senior year was like, my hardest year because I didn't care about school. I didn't care about grades. I was like, good grades. Oh, you get made fun of, you know, So I kind of, like I said, I gave into peer pressure to fit in with certain people, certain crowds. And the crowd that I decided to fit in with was mostly jocks. And they didn't care about school. So I, you know, skip. Skip class. I would, you know, go, you know, party with friends and hide it from my parents, hide it from everyone because I didn't want them to know about this side of me. And I just Pretended that that side of me didn't exist. I would go to church on Sunday and, you know, just. Just pretend like I. On the outside, I was this perfect kid who had it all put together, but on the inside, I was this hurt little boy that was just confused, scared, wanted to be loved, wanted to be, make people proud. And, you know, I didn't. I never felt worthy or good enough no matter what I did. So I just was like, well, I'm just gonna go. I'm gonna be by people that. That make me feel good about who I am, no matter what we're doing, if we're drinking, doing stupid stuff, you know? And, yeah, I went through my rebellious phase, I think my. My junior and senior year of high school.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] So I can. I can. I can see this is bringing up some sensitive emotions for you, and I'm just. Yeah, I'm wondering if you're channeling that kid and. And kind of what that kid was feeling. That must have been. I can tell that was really hard.

Drew Manning [00:27:17] Yes. And I think the reason that's hard for me is because, you know, doing all this inner work on myself, I've learned that I think within all of us is inner child that probably didn't receive the love that they needed, and I definitely did not receive that. And like I said, I don't blame my parents because they didn't know any better, but I think a lot of the issues that I had growing up with my perception of Mormonism, my perception of who I was, was because I didn't feel like I got love. Like, even to this day, my dad's never said, I love you. You know, he's never said, I'm proud of you. And I think as a kid, you don't know how to process that. If you never hear that you're loved or you're lovable or you're worthy from your own parents, how can you possibly believe that you are? You know? And so for me, I think a lot of people, adults who struggle in life and who maybe are holding onto resentment and hate, self hate. A lot of has to do with this inner child that's been hurt and wounded, and they haven't given themselves that love yet. And for me, yeah, it's. I still. And we'll talk about this in the. In this. In an ayahuasca experience that. That came up for me, but we'll talk about the inner child.

John Dehlin [00:28:26] What did that child need at the time?

Drew Manning [00:28:29] Like I said, just a reaffirmation that I am. I'm good enough. That I'm worthy, that I'm lovable. Despite all these mistakes, despite all these quote unquote sins that it had, I didn't feel like I received that love from anyone. So I didn't give myself that love. I was like, no, just toughen up, be a man. You don't need love, you know, And I think, you know, part of our culture as men is to man up.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] It's kind of a toxic masculinity, right?

Drew Manning [00:28:56] Yeah, definitely. It can be, for sure. Especially with the sports world that I grew up with. And I thought that was the way to becoming perfect was just to, like I said, discipline. Beat yourself up, man up, and don't talk about emotions. And I'll talk later, eventually about how that broke me.

John Dehlin [00:29:13] Anything else about your Mormon experience in high school prior to, like, college admission?

Drew Manning [00:29:20] That's a good question. I had. I had good leaders, like young men leaders that really, like, there was parts of, like, the young men programs that I did enjoy, like, going camping, you know, being part of this community with other youth in. In my high school. And there were. There were positive things, for sure. I'm not saying all this is negative. There were definitely some positive aspects to growing up Mormon, growing up in the church community. Yeah. And I think, you know, the Boy Scouts, for example, like, I enjoyed camping as a kid. You know, I enjoyed those kinds of things.

John Dehlin [00:29:53] By the time you graduated from high school, how would you describe your testimony, your Mormon testimony?

Drew Manning [00:29:58] It was just basically, I didn't really. I wouldn't say had a testimony. I never went and bore my testimony, but I was. I trusted my parents that I. They're smart people. They love me. I know they do, but. And this is what they want for me. So I. I trusted them that this is the right thing. So it was. My testimony was based off of their testimony.

John Dehlin [00:30:19] Okay, so how'd you end up on a mission?

Drew Manning [00:30:22] Oh, man. So I kind of. I went through my rebellious phase and I went off to play college football at this Division 2 college in West Virginia called Shepherd College.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] And what position?

Drew Manning [00:30:34] Inside linebacker. Oh, yeah.

Guest [00:30:36] Okay.

Drew Manning [00:30:37] So I, you know, I was pretty good in high school. I was like, first team all state, got third in state in Virginia. In Virginia.

John Dehlin [00:30:42] First team all state in Virginia.

Drew Manning [00:30:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] That's great.

Drew Manning [00:30:44] Football and.

John Dehlin [00:30:45] And in wrestling, you did what?

Drew Manning [00:30:46] Third. Third and state.

John Dehlin [00:30:48] Third and state.

Guest [00:30:49] I totally know what all of that means.

Drew Manning [00:30:50] You know that means, right?

Guest [00:30:51] Third estate, like, yeah, great. Congratulations.

Drew Manning [00:30:56] It's basically the Super Bowl. I won the Super Bowl. No, I'm just kidding.

John Dehlin [00:30:59] Oh, wow.

Drew Manning [00:31:00] Great.

Guest [00:31:01] Put that in my notes.

Drew Manning [00:31:05] So I went off to, to this Division 2 school to play football. And that was the first time in my life that were where my parents weren't there to force me to go to church. And that was the first time I didn't go to church for a whole semester. I didn't care about church, I didn't care about religion. I was just like, I'm here to play football and have a good time. School, yeah, who cares? But you know, I would show up to some classes. But that was, that semester was one of the hardest semesters for me because here I was partying a lot, doing things I knew were bad. So there was like all this, there was a lot of inner guilt and shame about, you know, about myself because I was partying, I was doing things I knew were wrong and I didn't go to church for a whole semester, you know. And I remember my parents tried to send the missionaries over to my apartment, like, hey, do you want to come to church? It's about a 30 minute drive, we could come pick you up. And I was like, no, no, I'm good. But also that was some of like the most depressing days of my life because I, I was, I was lost. Like, you know, based on my Mormon upbringing. Like you're, you've let go of the rod and therefore that's why you feel sad, that's why you feel depressed. And that was kind of, I was like, man, that's true. And there's this little college on the east coast called Southern Virginia University.

John Dehlin [00:32:20] Yeah, svu.

Drew Manning [00:32:21] Yes, for you.

John Dehlin [00:32:21] BYU east.

Drew Manning [00:32:22] Exactly. My brain brother was going there at the time and he's just really quickly listeners.

John Dehlin [00:32:28] So there's BYU Provo, BYU Idaho and then BYU Hawaii. For a long, long time Mormons have wanted other church sponsored universities because everybody wants to send their kids to Mormon University so they won't lose their testimony and so they can find a mate. Yes, byu, the church, for whatever reason has not wanted to expand beyond those three in LDS business, college and whatever else there is. And so some entrepreneurs at some point started Southern Virginia Virginia University as like a BYU east for Mormon kids to go. It's kind of a private school, but it's not officially sponsored by the church. Yeah, but it tries to be a byu. Did I get that right?

Drew Manning [00:33:07] Yeah, that's pretty much, yeah. Same morals and values that BYU has. They try and make sure like the kids, no partying, there's curfews, you can't go in like the opposite sex bedrooms. All these Rules to keep you away from the edge of, like, you know,

John Dehlin [00:33:19] to keep you from having a normal, normative, healthy college experience.

Drew Manning [00:33:24] So my brother was going there at the time. He's like, hey, why don't you come visit me before you go back to your, you know, Shepherd College? He's like, why don't you come visit me for a weekend? I'm like, okay, cool. And he was married, you know, at the time. And, you know, they were all super Mormon. And I was like, okay, I'll come visit. I was like, I'm too cool for this school. Like, I'm, you know, I was like, I party. This isn't a party school, you know, And I went there and met some cool people. And I was like, oh, they have a wrestling team, okay. I was like, maybe I'll check that out. And then at the end, my brother's like, hey, why don't you look into coming here? And he's like, I know someone in admins, like, they can get you in, they'll get your records transferred and like, all this stuff. And he's like, just think about it. And I remember driving home and this was another moment where I was like, I felt the spirit to go to that school, to go to Southern Virginia College by the time SVC is what it was called, because I was miserable at the college I was at. I didn't like my football coach and I was like, okay, maybe I'll go there and wrestle. So I went there last minute transfer, and as a sophomore or no, still a freshman.

John Dehlin [00:34:30] Okay.

Drew Manning [00:34:30] Because I was only at the other college for a semester.

John Dehlin [00:34:33] Okay.

Drew Manning [00:34:33] And then I went to svc like, like, I went to visit my brother on Saturday. On Monday I was in. In class already. I didn't tell my coach at the other school. I didn't tell my teachers.

John Dehlin [00:34:43] Wow.

Drew Manning [00:34:44] And it was so funny because I had my. My parents. I was so ashamed.

John Dehlin [00:34:47] Did you even drop out? Did you bother to drop out?

Drew Manning [00:34:50] Kind of. I had my parents do it. This is how scared I was. I had my mom and dad go back to my old apartment that I was living in and said, I'm too afraid to face my coach, the. The teachers, my old roommates. I was like, can you go pick up my stuff for me? And so they went to the school and I felt so bad for my roommate at the time because there was. There was beer bottles, there was like, you know, posters of naked women on the wall. And he. My parents knock on the door. He opens the door and I didn't warn him. There's no cell phones back then. So he just opens the door then like, oh, we're Drew's parents. We're here to get his stuff. And they walk in the room and there's like beer bottles and, you know, pornography, like posters and. And he was so embarrassed, and I felt so bad for him, but he's like, dude, why don't you tell me your parents are coming? I'm like, I don't know. I. It was last minute and so my parents, like, had to go into the room and get all my stuff. You know, I was. I was kind of a scared kid. I was afraid of confrontation as a kid. So I didn't like having candid in, you know, conversations with people where you

John Dehlin [00:35:54] would learn to hide and lie. Right?

Drew Manning [00:35:56] Yeah, I was super uncomfortable. So I was like, I'll go to this Mormon school. You guys go get my stuff. And then that's where I decided to go on a mission. I was like, okay, there's some cool people that, you know, are. Are Mormon. And maybe, maybe you can be Mormon and cool, you know. And so I started going to church again and was like, okay, I'm going to go on a mission. All my brothers have gone on missions. We've all, you know, followed the rules. And I was like, okay. And I. So I ended up going on a mission and went to Brazil.

John Dehlin [00:36:23] Okay, wait, did you have some kind of like, spiritual awakening or like, testimony affirming thing? Like, for me, I wanted to know the church was true. And so I, you know, I had to have this moment where I either, like, believed it or didn't.

Drew Manning [00:36:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:38] Did you, did you fight for that? Did you have that? Or was it more just like, oh, everyone else is doing it. It seems like the right thing to do. I'll go do it.

Drew Manning [00:36:45] Yeah, it was more of the second one. Like everyone else, my. All my brothers did it. It's the cool thing to do. I should probably do this too. And I later had a conversion story, like all my mission or something that was like, okay, now this is what I believe in. But yeah, there was nothing like that beforehand. It was just like, oh, I know this will make my parents proud. And you know, and maybe this is what I should do. So, yeah, went to semester one, semester at svc Southern Virginia College. Shout out to the knights and wrestled there. Got prepared for my mission. Did all the stuff you're supposed to do, you know, fought with the worthiness, of course, like, yeah, like, not looking at master or not looking at masturbation, not looking at pornography. Not masturbating, trying to stay clean. To go on this mission was hard, but they let me go, you know, and I went on my mission to Brazil for two years, and then that's where I first read the Book of Mormon. Was. Was on your mtc.

Serving a Mission in Brazil

John Dehlin [00:37:46] And Brazil can be a scary place. What was it like? What was Brazil like? Really quick.

Drew Manning [00:37:50] I love it. Shout out to my Brazilian friends out there. I love Brazil. It wasn't scary for me at all. I freaking loved it because I went straight to the MTC in Sao Paulo. I didn't go to the Provo mtc. And it was cool to learn another language, meet another people, culture, and it was just a beautiful country.

Guest [00:38:10] What year was this?

Drew Manning [00:38:11] 2000.

Guest [00:38:11] 2000?

Drew Manning [00:38:12] Yeah, 2002 is when I went on my mission and I freaking loved it. I love my mission, you know, even though I don't agree with what I was teaching now. But I had so many cool experiences, met so many cool people. And I think you should take every American teenager, especially that spoiled, put them in a third world country for six months and show them what life is like outside of the United States so they don't grow up in this bubble of like, oh, you know, complaining about Wi Fi or complaining about their coffee not made right or complaining about these first world problems. Put them in thermal country. You will grow up way more in those six months than you know, than any other experience that you can have here in the United States. So I freaking loved Brazil. I loved the people, loved the culture, and, yeah, I had a great time.

Guest [00:38:56] Get along with your companions and not all of them.

Drew Manning [00:39:00] It was really hard. It was really hard because I had that same, like, sports discipline. And like, the. The. The discipline my. My. My dad instilled in me of like, hey, we gotta be perfect. So no slacking, no complaining, like, no rest. No, like, we have to be strong. We have to be like, letter of the law. We have to do everything like, right, because otherwise we're not gonna baptize people. And it's like, oh, we didn't baptize people. You sinned or I send or something happened.

Guest [00:39:24] Oh, no, you're one of those missionaries.

Drew Manning [00:39:26] Yeah, it was like, you know, it was. It was. But that's kind of the mentality you had. And that's all I knew was like, okay, I'm going to do this 100%. Just like football or just like wrestling. I got to go in, got to, like, you know, 100% execute. No. No mistakes. And yeah, I was. I was. It was hard because in Brazil, there's a lot of like pornography, like on billboards sometimes. And I'd be like, okay, try not to look at that. Or half naked girls in the streets. Like, and you taught not to look and like, that's bad, that's sinful. So there was navigating through that on the mission. But yeah, I, I don't really have any bad experience on my mission.

Guest [00:40:03] Did you actually have like success baptizing people and did that like confirm to you that if you did, like try really hard and be really disciplined that it had results?

Drew Manning [00:40:12] Yeah, because I feel like the culture of the people of Brazil were so welcoming to one Americans, but also to this religion that, you know, the way we teach, the way we taught it was actually really brilliant, like with what it would do to people of like, hey, do you feel something? Do you feel something? Like, you know, in your heart or in your bosom, do you feel something? They're like, yeah, I do. Like, that's the spirit telling you that it's true. And people would be like, yeah, that makes sense. And so we baptized a lot, quite a lot of people in Brazil. And then I was like, man, this is the work of the Lord. This is what we're supposed to do.

Guest [00:40:44] So you are being converted a little bit as you saw people.

Drew Manning [00:40:47] Yeah.

Guest [00:40:48] Like being receptive to this message.

Drew Manning [00:40:50] Yes.

Guest [00:40:50] A bunch of like dumb 20 year old American kids. You're like, this must be true if they're listening to us.

Drew Manning [00:40:55] Yeah, that's, it's so true. And I like totally was cocky and egotistical. Like, we have the truth. And all these other churches, all these other churches, because there's so many churches, they have angelical churches down there. I was like, all these other churches are not true. Like you guys have half the truth. We have the full truth. And that's kind of what they teach you. And that's what I believe. Like, hey, we have the truth. And sorry, but these other churches, yeah, there's some truth there, but we are the only ones with the truth. And that's kind of what I want to get across to people watching this that aren't Mormon is Mormons believe that their church is the one true church on the face of the earth that's 100% true and real, that all the other churches are not true. Just the Mormon church is true.

John Dehlin [00:41:33] Yeah.

Drew Manning [00:41:34] And there's no arguing that. But that's what we're taught. That's what's drilled in our heads. And you know, reading the Book of Mormon for the first time, I Was like, oh, this is a cool book. There's all these stories, war stories in the Book of Mormon and Captain Moroni and all these cool stories that make you feel good about your beliefs. And I definitely was like, okay. I feel like this is finally the right thing, you know?

John Dehlin [00:41:57] Absolutely.

Drew Manning [00:41:57] For me at least.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] Okay, so you got off your mission, and what'd you do?

Drew Manning [00:42:03] I went to school. Went to Snow College for a year.

Guest [00:42:07] So.

John Dehlin [00:42:07] Snow. Where's Snow College?

Drew Manning [00:42:09] It's middle of nowhere. Utah. Ephraim.

John Dehlin [00:42:12] It's in Ephraim, Utah.

Drew Manning [00:42:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:14] Were you on scholarship there?

Drew Manning [00:42:15] No. No. I kind of didn't know where I wanted to go, and I kind of got an epiphany or spiritual prompting to go to Snow College and play football in hopes to play as a walk on. As a walk on.

John Dehlin [00:42:25] Okay.

Drew Manning [00:42:25] Yeah. In hopes to play at the next level. Lasted there a year. Hated it.

John Dehlin [00:42:31] Did you walk on?

Drew Manning [00:42:32] I did walk on.

John Dehlin [00:42:33] You got on?

Drew Manning [00:42:33] Yeah, I got on.

John Dehlin [00:42:34] Okay. That's a big deal. It's not easy to walk on, even to a division. What division? What was.

Drew Manning [00:42:39] Well, they were junior college.

John Dehlin [00:42:40] Yeah. Even the junior college is not easy to walk on.

Drew Manning [00:42:42] I don't think so. Anyways, I made it there for about a year, but I hated it because it smelled like turkeys. It did not smell good. And there was nothing to do.

John Dehlin [00:42:52] But also turkeys.

Drew Manning [00:42:53] Yeah. I didn't get along.

Guest [00:42:53] College's PR is, like, flipping out right now.

Drew Manning [00:42:57] Well, I did go back in and speak at Snow College recently. Within the past five years, so they still like me there.

Guest [00:43:05] Oh, good, Good.

Drew Manning [00:43:06] But I didn't, like. I didn't, like, my coach at the time, didn't get along with him and just felt kind of lost there. So I went back to SVU now Southern Virginia University, and now is a university instead of a college.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] Okay.

Drew Manning [00:43:20] And I played football there, and that's where I graduated.

Guest [00:43:22] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:43:23] What'd you study?

Drew Manning [00:43:24] Business management. So I got my degree.

Post-Mission Life and Relationship Standards

John Dehlin [00:43:27] And after your mission, was it hard to come off your mission? Was it hard to live the standards?

Guest [00:43:32] I remember.

Drew Manning [00:43:33] I remember. You know, my brothers, funny, we always make fun of ourselves because we came back from our missions, we're all like, who's the most strict? And, like, we were all so weird. Like, I remember my brothers coming back from my. From their missions, and I'm like, why are you making me turn Adam Sandler off? Like, let me watch this. And, like, why are you, like, saying this is inappropriate? Like, you're so weird now and then, of course I come back from a mission. I'm the same way of like this, like, oh, this music is horrible. Like, I only listen to classical and Mormon Tabernacle Choir or, you know, it was like that, like, how righteous can you be? And I was just like this. This silliness almost of like, how strict could you be?

John Dehlin [00:44:13] Flexing on each other.

Drew Manning [00:44:14] Flexing.

John Dehlin [00:44:14] Mormon flexing.

Drew Manning [00:44:15] Yeah, Mormon flexing of like, how righteous are you? But anyways, I. I came back, I would say more normal than my brothers did because I still listen to rock music. I still listen to, like, Brazilian, like, rock. Like, it's pretty cool. Like some Brazilian rap, too.

Guest [00:44:30] Shout out to Brazilian rap and rock.

Drew Manning [00:44:32] Yeah, it's good music. So I still. And I wanted to catch up on movies. I love movies. And so anyways, I navigated those waters, I would say, pretty well. And then I met my. My ex wife, Lynn, in between semesters. I was living in Huntington Beach, California. And, yeah, we met in. In Huntington Beach, California. And then that's kind of like the next chapter of my life.

John Dehlin [00:45:02] Let's start.

Guest [00:45:03] So.

John Dehlin [00:45:04] So, yeah.

Drew Manning [00:45:06] Yeah, so I met her in Huntington Beach. I was living with my brother out there just kind of for the summer, in between semesters. Not sure what I was going to do. Met Lynn, fell in love with her pretty quickly. And I remember, you know, Lynn and I, she was a different breed. She definitely came from a family upbringing where things weren't so strict. She kind of grew up inactive. She went to restaurants on Sundays. And I was like, how could you, you know, just so strict with the way I was brought up? And we didn't mesh well, but we had a connection, a deep connection between both of us. And she was. She had been coming back to church recently and was, like, kind of reactivated. And so we kind of connected and on a deeper level. And I felt. I fell in love with her pretty quickly. And I was supposed to go back to SVU to play football in the fall. And I wasn't sure because I loved her. So my bishop said, oh, like, I went to my bishop to talk to him about whether or not what I should do. And he's like, well, do you love her? I'm like, yeah. He's like, then why are you leaving? And I was like, that's a good point. I don't. I. Because you're supposed to go to college, you know, and he's like, well, if you love her, then stay with her. And so I took a semester off school. I got a job out there. We, you know, got engaged. And then I went back to school after I put the ring on her finger. And then. So I went back to school at svu, played football, and she worked, and we got married about a year later.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] And you were how old?

Drew Manning [00:46:41] 25. I was 25.

John Dehlin [00:46:42] Was it a temple wedding?

Drew Manning [00:46:44] We did get married in the temple. We struggled to make it happen.

John Dehlin [00:46:48] Tell our non. Tell our non Mormon listeners what you mean by you struggled. Well, what are the standards? And. And you don't have to go into detail. Sure, whatever.

Drew Manning [00:46:55] No, no, no. Lynn's totally fine with me talking about this, and I don't care. But so we're taught that sex, sexual relations before marriage is bad, and then boom, all of a sudden, when you're married, then it's good, Right? But of course, when you're connected to someone, you love someone, you want to be physical with them. And so Lynn and I struggled to not be physical. Right. We definitely struggle not to be physical. And we had sex before our marriage, and we had confessed that. And this is where things started to shift for us, because I remember one time we had to go confess our sins, right? Because the guilt, the shame, and all that stuff about. About sexual sins is a serious business in the Mormon Church. They want to know every last detail of what you did. So I remember it was super traumatizing for her. We had to go confess our sins to the bishop. I went in first by myself to the bishopric. And, you know, you. They ask you very detailed questions about what happened, who instigated it, what, like, who touched who first, you know, what, like, did you have intercourse? All these details about it. And I went in, and I was taught to respect authority. So I went in, like, very scared of, like, okay, I have to confess these sins to these men. And. But this is what you do. I didn't question it. Lynn went in next, and she was so infuriated because of all the details they were asking her. And it was just her with three men asking her these intimate details. And she was so traumatized from that experience. She was like, I don't want to go back to church. And I had to, like, tell her, like, we. This is what we have to do. We have to go through this repentance process. She's like, I don't want to do this. And I wish she was here to talk about her side of the story, but I just remember how traumatized she was from that experience of having to go in with three men she didn't really know that well, talk about her sexual life. And that's just kind of what the. The control. The Church has over you. And we had a punishment of, I think I was disfellowshipped at the time, which means, which is a big deal. So like for people watching that aren't Mormon, like excommunicated, I think people know what that means. Like you're out of the church. Disfellowshipped means you're in the church, but you're kind of like, you're kind of like, what's the right word? Shamed to where you can't pray in public, you can't, you can't give people blessings, you can't pass or bless the sacrament, you can't do certain things in the church. And that is super embarrassing and dehumanizing behavior to where like if someone asked me to pray, I had to be like, like, I can't pray. And they'd be like, why not? You know, in front of everyone, you're like, well, thanks a lot. Now I have to tell you, I'm freaking disfellowshipped. So I can't pray there. Does that make you feel better? Like it was so embarrassing to tell people, hey, don't ask me to pray because I can't.

John Dehlin [00:49:47] And for our non Mormon listeners, I have to. It wasn't until I kind of interviewed with Leah Remini and Mike Rinder where I realized that some of the stuff we do is just outrageous compared to the adult human civilized world outside of like a high demand religion. But the fact, you know, now I kind of feel like if my kids came to me and said, dad, should I, if I find someone I want to marry, should I have sex before I get married? I would say absolutely not. Because I don't believe sex is, you know, something that's really special. But because it's something really special and because marriage is something I take really seriously. And you want to make sure there's compatibility there.

Drew Manning [00:50:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:29] So I would want my kids to know their potential spouse in all the different ways before they made a lifelong commitment. So I mean, that feels like what the civilized world would kind of think these days. But in Mormonism, not only are you not supposed to have sex before you commit to eternity to marry somebody, but if you touch someone's breast or they touch you where they shouldn't, then you have to sit as a couple in front of a middle aged male, go through this shame, I think it's called a shame parade where you have to confess it. They tell you you can't take the sacrament, they tell you you can't go to the temple. They may Delay your marriage, they may cancel your marriage. And then your parents find out, your siblings find out, everyone in your ward finds out, everyone in your partner's family and their friends find out. And they call it the shame parade. And it's also super inappropriate and humiliating, or at least it can be now. That was me just trying to make sure our non Mormon listeners understand what we're talking about. How would you fill in what I'm missing from that experience?

Drew Manning [00:51:38] No, that kind of summed it up perfectly, to be honest with you. Because I remember even in our singles ward in California where we were at in Huntington beach, this bishop was so strict on his view of what sexual sin was. To the point where he gave a talk in sacrament where he talked the whole sacrament, the whole hour about sexual sin and how anytime. And he drilled it, he was like a militant guy. He's like, if you are kissing someone and you become aroused or they become aroused, you need to go to your bishop and confess that sin as if that's a sexual sin. If the arousal is there. If you cause the arousal of the other person, you are responsible for breaking the law of chastity. He gave a 45 minute lesson on this to all the singles in the ward of if you guys are kissing, making out to the point where you get aroused, you've crossed the line.

Guest [00:52:33] And that's the Jesus quote of like, if any man looketh on another woman, has commits, it was a kind of along those lines that he. You committed the act of the sexual sin in your heart because of the arousal.

Drew Manning [00:52:44] Yeah, that's how, that's how, you know, detailed and serious. He was about it. It was 45 minutes of that.

John Dehlin [00:52:49] Wow.

Drew Manning [00:52:49] Because all the singles, like, of course people are pushing the envelope. They're testing the waters. They want to be sexually active, but they're told it's a sin. And they're trying to find these ways, like skirting around, like, okay, well can I do this? Can I do that? He's like, any arousal, any kind of sexual arousal in if you're with someone. Because he told me like he was my bishop at the time and I had to go confess to him. He's like, you need to break up with Lynn. And I was like, why would you tell me like, why? He's like, because you're just gonna keep sinning with her. And I was like, this is. That was for me, such horrible advice. And I was so mad. I was so, like angered by that at the time. Because I'm like, I'm not gonna break up with her. Like, I hear you, you're my bishop. And I know I'm supposed to listen to you, but I just, I feel my heart of hearts. That's wrong. And so that's his advice he gave to anyone. If they messed up sexually before they were married, he had them break up. And that's the advice that he gave me to break up with Lynn. He's like, yeah, you need to break up with her. Luckily I, I switched over and got a different bishop eventually somehow with the, they like transferred him or something and he was much more like cool and, you know, didn't care too much about it. But anyways, yes, so shame parade. Yes, that definitely happened. We had to make up lies to our family of like, oh, we couldn't. We want to get married in this temple. And you know, we had to push it back because Lynn's family couldn't make it anything to not tell the truth of like, hey, we had sex. But when we told people like, hey, it's going to be a year from now, I'm sure people assumed or knew that, oh, you're not getting married for a year in the temple. Oh, we know what that means. That means you guys have messed up sexually. And so I was disfellowshipped. I had to go to my bishop on a monthly basis, check in with him, confess to him if I was masturbating or looking at porn. And after about eight or nine months, I was re fellowshipped, which means now I could participate in the church like a normal member. So that, that like, veil of shame was lifted from me, I guess you could say. We got married in the temple. It was a beautiful experience. Her family was there, my family was there.

Guest [00:55:00] What temple was it?

Drew Manning [00:55:02] Mount Timpanogos. Yeah, in Utah, so. And then we went out to Virginia to finish school as a married couple.

John Dehlin [00:55:10] Yeah. And it's just, I don't, I again, I don't believe that, that the Mormon church or other high demand religions do this on purpose, but ultimately it's a way to keep, I think it's a way to keep people humble. It's a way to keep people submissive. It's a way to exert undue influence over your members and, and to make them feel like they're broken. So broken heart and contrite spirit. They want you to feel broken so that you can feel like you need them to be whole.

Drew Manning [00:55:41] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:41] And so they create the illness that then they offer themselves up to be the cure of. And again, I don't believe it's. Intentional. I don't believe it's insidious. It's just the, the ball. It's just the stone that got cut out from the mountain and is rolling down the hill.

Drew Manning [00:55:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:55:57] But it makes you feel like you owe the church everything and you need the church to be a happy, healthy person because you're a bad, fundamentally a bad, broken, awful person. And that's why I'm not a big fan of the sin model, because I think it's number one. You could make a good argument that sexuality, healthy sexuality, is a good thing even before marriage.

Drew Manning [00:56:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] So it's not something you should feel bad about. And then you could just argue that just this whole sin model of always feeling bad about yourself isn't necessarily good for your long term mental health and well being. And certainly dependence on an organization for your health, happiness and well being when that organization may not have the best rules or principles or even your own best interests at heart, can sometimes be dangerous or even deadly.

Drew Manning [00:56:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:50] And that's again, it's not that I'm anti the church or anti Christian.

Drew Manning [00:56:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:56] But there's deep problems with this sin shame cycle model.

Drew Manning [00:57:00] I think. Well, my lowest of lows were at those moments of being disfellowshipped and like just feeling so, like once again, like a failure. And then when I was re fellowshipped into the church, I was, it was like this high of highs where I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so grateful, I'm so blessed. Like, I'm like, so they created that, they created that like where or in my mind I was like, I'm this horrible person. I need to go through this, I need to punish myself. And then, oh my gosh, they had this mercy to re fellowship me into the church. Like I feel so grateful for that, you know, and that's kind of. Yeah, that's kind of the, that type of control that, you know, that the, the church can have or any church can have. Right. So anyways, we got married in the temple. That was pretty cool.

John Dehlin [00:57:45] Really quick. A lot of people have feelings about the actual temple ceremony.

Drew Manning [00:57:50] Ye.

John Dehlin [00:57:51] Yeah. Mark talked about him not loving it, but also his wife not loving it. It's also a very sensitive thing in Mormonism to talk about the temple. Is there anything you want to say about your temple experience? Or not. Or not say that's okay.

Drew Manning [00:58:03] No, no, I'll talk about it. I remember my first experience with the temple was when my older brother got married. He came out of the temple and he had this like Line across his head. And I was a teenage kid, I was like, what were you wearing? Like you have this like, crease in your skin, like you were wearing a hat. He's like, I can't tell you.

Guest [00:58:20] I'm like, that's more information than any other.

Drew Manning [00:58:22] I was like, what is that? I was like, why were you wearing something? Like, what were you wearing? I was like, so like weirded out by it. Like, dude, just tell me. He's like, I can't tell you. And so I was like, one kind of weirded out by that. But then when I went in the

John Dehlin [00:58:34] temple, why couldn't, why couldn't you tell you or he tell you? Why couldn't he tell you?

Guest [00:58:38] John's walking around the room fixing something. I'll repeat that into the microphone. Why couldn't your brother tell you what he was wearing in the temple?

Drew Manning [00:58:45] He didn't really say why, he just said, oh, you'll find out one day kind of thing. But basically because in the temple you are sworn to secrecy, to never reveal the secrets of the temple. Otherwise you have to. Well, I know back in, before my day, it was like you have to, you know, slit your throat or, you know, it'd be better to, what is it, kill yourself or disemboweled, cut your throat.

John Dehlin [00:59:11] There were just kind of these death oaths that you had to give when I went through the temple for the first time, basically saying if you ever divulge what goes on in here, it's better that you die. And so it's a relic or a holdover from the Masonic Lodge temple ceremony. Because Joseph Smith was a Mason, he basically just remixed masonry into Mormonism in the Mormon Temple ceremony. And so all these signs and tokens of penalties were all part of it. And so it's super secret. It was actually very violent. It's still super weird. And so everyone's afraid to talk about it. And so it's one of the worst kept secrets now because of YouTube and new name Noah and all that. But your brother Mormons have been going through this for a couple hundred years, but they can never tell anyone. And so when you go to the temple for the first time as a Mormon teen, you don't know hardly anything. Right? And no one can tell you?

Drew Manning [01:00:11] No, I thought it was so weird because you're in this like white cloth, you're butt naked underneath and people are touching you. These old people are touching you in certain places of your body, like your head, your, your chest, your neck, your loins, which I don't remember where the loins was, but it was somewhere close to your crotch area, not on your crotch. I'm not saying it was your crotch,

Guest [01:00:34] but I have my laptop. I'll pull it up right now.

Drew Manning [01:00:38] Like. Like, you know, they're kind of blessing you, but they're kind of touching you underneath your robe. They didn't touch your, you know, your. Your junk or anything, your private parts, but they touch close and you just feel really weird. Like, okay, this is, I guess what my parents do, and I trust them. So my mentality going into it was like, yeah, this is weird. I don't know how to do this. Like, you kind of have to use the tokens and signs to get through certain parts of the temple. And I was like, this feels really weird to me, but I didn't question it. That's the thing is I was just like, okay, that's the experience. And I just throughout, like, you know, the weird. The weird part of it and just be like, okay, that I don't. I just won't focus on that. That's kind of my mentality. So she went through it too. Yeah, it was weird for her, but I think she trusted me, she trusted her family, and we made it through. Like, we both were like, okay, this is weird. And, yeah, these are definitely not sexy, these garments. But I was like, okay, we'll work through it somehow because you have to wear these, like, these underwear that kind of are just not very attractive underwear. Let's just say that garments. Garments is what they're called.

John Dehlin [01:01:42] Yeah.

Drew Manning [01:01:43] So, yeah, we, like, not. I didn't say it was traumatizing for her. I just think we both thought it was really weird. But this is kind of what our parents do and our family does, and we'll just, like, not question it. Yeah, that was my mentality. Okay, so.

Marriage, Sexuality, and Church Expectations

John Dehlin [01:01:57] So you got married.

Drew Manning [01:01:58] So we got married, moved to Virginia, finished up school, got a degree, got a job, moved to Illinois. We were like. That was probably our happiest time of our life was moving to Illinois. We were still, you know, active members. We went to church and we were doing our own thing as this young couple, no kids, you know, decent income. First bought our first house. You know, we're kind of living the life for like, two, three years. And then we moved to Utah in 0809 because the economy, you know, tanked. And the company I was work for, I was working for was going bankrupt. Chrysler, they. I was a financial analyst for Chrysler.

John Dehlin [01:02:32] Nice.

Drew Manning [01:02:33] And they. They bought me out and said, hey, we basically, here, take this check. We can't. You can't work here anymore. And I was like, okay, so we moved to Utah and boom, we got pregnant pretty quick. Like, you know, some. Maybe there's something in the water here where we tried to get pregnant before that, but we couldn't. And so we get pregnant, you know, had two kids here in Utah. And okay, this is the thing where it gets hard.

John Dehlin [01:03:00] What year are we at about at this point?

Drew Manning [01:03:02] 2008. 2009 is when we moved to Utah. So we, we got married in 2005.

John Dehlin [01:03:06] Okay.

Drew Manning [01:03:07] And, you know, this part of my story, I've opened up and talked about my divorce. We were married for about 10 years, but kind of tying it all together, there is this, you know, like I said, there was this part of me that would protect myself by not talking about the things that brought me shame. And that was how I survived, was pretending like things were okay. So going back to when Lynn and I were dating, she asked me if I looked at pornography. And this was before we were engaged. And I told her yes. And that was such a hard thing for her, for her to accept. She was not happy and she was disgusted and she was heartbroken because Kara.

John Dehlin [01:03:52] And I'm just gonna ask Kara for this care. What's. What's a Mormon girl taught to think about porn and to expect or even demand from maybe her husband? Do you want to. Do you mind sharing that? Yeah.

Guest [01:04:07] The. You. You were taught to kind of look up to the highest priesthood holders that are around you, and those people would never look at porn. Those people are so righteous and completely always have complete control over any of these normal sexual inclinations. And so you want to strive to only date people that could go on to be a bishop or stake president or a general authority. And you're looking for the strongest testimony possible in the person that you're dating. And so porn is like a masturbation and porn. Right. Masturbation and porn sometimes is. Can be a deal breaker too. It's so common now. I don't think it is quite a deal breaker as it could be, but you know what I mean? But like it's. Yeah. To a, to a girl who's dating, you're looking. You're looking for somebody who has so much better control over their. Their inclinations than that. And it kind of puts you taken aback that now you have to kind of okay this relationship. You're down here, I'm up here, my hand's always going to be, you know,

John Dehlin [01:05:09] meaning who's down there?

Guest [01:05:10] Your. Your Boyfriend, your. Your fiance or your husband? Because from now on, I'm the one who's right with God.

John Dehlin [01:05:19] Because you're not looking at porn.

Guest [01:05:20] I'm not looking at porn because I'm taught to repress my sexual desires. Of course.

John Dehlin [01:05:26] Because women don't have sexual desires. Right?

Guest [01:05:29] Yeah. So it's. I think it creates from the very get go, a kind of weird little imbalance, but where you're always trying to be like, okay, we have to wait for you. You're the ones who's got the problem. Now we have to go to the bishop, yada, yada, yada.

Drew Manning [01:05:42] So.

John Dehlin [01:05:42] And what words would be associated in your mind with a husband looking at porn or masturbating in your mind, what would be the adjectives that would come up for that? As a Mormon wife, that's a hard

Guest [01:05:59] question to ask me because I wasn't that type of person, so it's hard to even retreat back to that. But I would assume just weak or weak, dirty. Yeah.

Drew Manning [01:06:08] Yeah.

Guest [01:06:08] That.

Drew Manning [01:06:08] Disgusting, Horrible.

Guest [01:06:10] Yeah. That porn is the grossest, muckiest, most disgusting, like thing that could ever exist in the world. And that this person I love is entrenched in that. It just kind of infidelity.

John Dehlin [01:06:22] Right.

Guest [01:06:23] Yeah. Those things, if they would do that, what's. What's stopping them from going out and almost child molester?

John Dehlin [01:06:29] Like.

Guest [01:06:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:29] That's like one step away from being a. Right.

Guest [01:06:32] Yeah. Yeah. I also want to clarify, since you are asking me a question, people were confused who just joined the chat, why I'm talking and who I am. So. Hi, I'm Nuance Ho. I'm Cara Burrell. I am co hosting and producing this episode. I have just met Drew today. I am not part of his story.

John Dehlin [01:06:48] Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. You're not his wife or ex wife.

Guest [01:06:52] Yeah, I'm not like, okay.

John Dehlin [01:06:54] And thanks for.

Drew Manning [01:06:55] It's important to put.

John Dehlin [01:06:56] I think it's fun to. I think it, you know, we're trying this out, but I think it's fun to have a female perspective. But also Kara's helping doing the video and the audio and the note taking and production stuff. So we're just trying this out. But it's. I'm. I'm really happy you're here, Cara.

Drew Manning [01:07:07] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:07:08] So Drew, how much of that is right on versus?

Drew Manning [01:07:10] Yeah. You know, going step into Lynn's shoes, like, you know, it was, it was. It's hard for women in the church because it's, it's fear based mentality of like, okay, my boyfriend is looking at pornography which we both know is evil and bad and wrong and disgusting and horrible. And that means he's not this person, this righteous priesthood holder that I thought he was. And there's a lot of, like, you know, I think for women, it's hard because they think there's something wrong with them. Like, oh, if I was pretty or. Or if I was sexier or this or that, then my husband wouldn't be into porn. And they put the pressure on themselves and make it about themselves. Like, if I was different, maybe there's something wrong with me. And that's the hard part. As. As a man, you're like, this has nothing to do with you. Like, you could be the hottest girl in the world. Porn is just this thing that I've always been attached to because of my perception of it was this forbidden fruit, this thing that. It was so, like, exciting and cool because it was also taught I was. It was bad and disgusting. Horrible. And so, like, you're. You're. You don't know how to navigate those waters. There's no safe, healthy outlet to talk about your porn addiction. You couldn't go to your. I couldn't go to my dad or my brothers or my church leaders. It was just like, hey, don't do it. Hey, don't look at it. It's like, okay, cool. That really helps. Like, that doesn't, like, doesn't help a teenage kid to be like, hey, just stop doing that. Otherwise there's a punishment that doesn't always make them not want to do it. So. So the reason I bring that experience up was because she was so turned off by and so traumatized by me telling her that I looked at porn. I was like, it solidified in my brain, okay, I can never tell her again that I look at porn because she, like, almost broke up with me. She was so. It was so detrimental to her that she almost ended our relationship. So I was like. I said all the right things. I was like, I'll never look at porn again. I promise you. It's just a phase. Like, I could easily stop it whenever I want to. I will never look at porn again. I love you. Let's get married. And then that was the end of it. And. And so that experience kind of solidified in my brain. Like, hey, don't tell people about this. Don't tell people about this disgusting, horrible sin you have, because that just hurts them. And so I was like, okay, you know, of course I didn't stop looking at porn. I continued to. I tried really hard not to But I just hit it and pretended I didn't do it. For years and years and years and years I was living this lie, this inauthentic life of like, yeah, I look at porn, but I feel so disgusted with myself.

Infidelity, Confession, and the Sin-Shame Cycle

John Dehlin [01:09:42] And, and so the, the same model that you learned in your church, which is to hide and lie and suppress and to live kind of this double life, now gets replicated in your marriage, which is toxic for marriages. As someone who's studied this and counseled lots of people, you know, a strong, healthy marriage is one where you can be vulnerable, emotionally intimate, where you tell each other everything. That's, in my opinion, what makes a strong marriage. But because of the Mormon upbringing, you learn to hide and lie and keep things from your spouse, to keep things secret, to feel all this guilt and shame. And it sets many marriages up for failure.

Drew Manning [01:10:24] I believe, yes, 100%. It definitely caused so many issues, unfortunately between us, because now I was in this mentality of like, hey, you're a failure, you're already a screw up, you're already hiding these things. What's to keep you from doing more? And to make a long story short, Fast forward to 2009. Ish. I got a new job in the medical field and had to go away for six weeks. And this job required me to travel to Colorado for six weeks where I had to train under this new, this new company to learn their methods. And so I was there for six weeks by myself, without her. She had to stay behind. We had a baby, so she had to stay behind. And I was there for six weeks training. And there was this other girl there that was going through training with me. And it's so interesting because the night before I left, my ex wife, Lynn had a dream that I had cheated on her. And she woke up, like crying. Like, you know, she was heartbroken as if it happened. And I remember after, when she woke up, I was like, I would never do that to you. I would never cheat on you. And I swore to her I never would. And I truly believe that. I really did. But then being gone for six weeks, there was this other girl there. We started spending, you know, eight hours a day in class learning. It was just us two. We became friends, we started studying together, and before you know it, I had an affair. And my mentality was hide it, don't tell anyone about it. Don't tell her Lynn. Because for Lynn, that was her worst fear. You know, her dad cheated on her mom and she told me this is my worst fear and don't ever do That I was like, I will never do that. And then I did it. And the reason I'm telling the story now is, you know, I've talked about this on my podcast, is because I'm totally fine with talking about this and owning my story. There's a lot of self hate. And I think for me, the reason why did I do that, you know, I wouldn't say our marriage was struggling. Our marriage was horrible. We didn't have like a sexless marriage. I think it goes back to me hating myself and seeing myself as a failure my whole life. And when you see yourself as a failure, you hate yourself. You do self sabotage sometimes and you choose those decisions you know are wrong, you know that, you know are bad, but it's because you think you deserve the worst. You think you're already a failure, so why not keep failing? Because you believe that, you know. And so that was another testament to me being a failure. So I hated myself. I hid it from her for about a year. She found out about it.

John Dehlin [01:13:19] Was it an ongoing relationship or just.

Drew Manning [01:13:21] It was just during those six weeks, you know, when I was there, something that happened. I was infatuated and it was just kind of like a. This is so exciting. I've never done this before. This is dangerous. It's bad. I shouldn't be doing this. But, you know, there was kind of this excitement to it for sure.

Guest [01:13:36] Did she feel the same way, this, this woman? Was she married as well? Was this.

Drew Manning [01:13:40] She had a boyfriend. I think she had a boyfriend at the time. Yeah, she felt the same way. She was Christian, you know, a different religion, but yeah, same thing. And, you know, it wasn't like I was gonna leave Lynn or divorce her for this girl, but there was definitely some feelings there of, man, this girl's so cool and all that. It was, it was an infatuation for sure. And it was just something, you know, for me, it took me years to figure out why I did it. First of all, because I couldn't understand why I did, like, why would I do that? Why would I do that? To land. She knew. I knew this was her worst fear. This was something that she told me, I can't have you do this. And why did I do it? Like I still. Or I didn't know at the time until. I'll talk about this life coach later helped me figure out why you do things when you see yourself as a failure. And this applies to other aspects of our life, like health and fitness, you know, exercise, diet, other areas of our life where we believe We're a failure. We don't believe, we don't believe, we can't, we deserve better. So we choose these self sabotage behaviors because we don't truly believe we're worthy. And I think it could be an affair. It could be all kinds of things. It could be, you know, binge eating, it could be all kinds of unhealthy behaviors.

Guest [01:14:54] So can I ask you a question? Was it. Did it seem like because you already had a previous history with this sexual sin that, that just felt like your failure, that like that was the place if I'm gonna mess up, it's gonna be this place.

Drew Manning [01:15:03] Yeah. And yeah, that was kind of like my outlet.

Guest [01:15:06] Yeah. Sexual sins that you've already just established that you're a failure in that area.

Drew Manning [01:15:11] Yeah.

Guest [01:15:11] And it wasn't a surprise almost that you're like, I physically, I'm just gonna continue this type of, of mess up.

Drew Manning [01:15:18] Yeah. It was something I was comfortable with. I knew very well. Like, like that shame that, that feeling was like sexual sin was kind of like I didn't go out and drink, I didn't go on like do drugs or anything. I just kind of like the sexual sin was. I became so familiar with it because I. That's kind of my, my method I use as a teenage kid and just kind of stayed in that. But the fair thing I didn't think would ever happen, I really didn't. And anyways, a year goes by or so and she finds out and I am like, she's devastated, she's heartbroken. I hate myself even more. I remember I was, yeah, I remember I was hoping home teaching a lesson. And I get a text from her, like, get home right now. Like, I saw this email, I know everything. And I was in the middle of like teaching a home teaching lesson. I was like, I gotta go home, my wife needs me. She's pregnant and she needs some help or something like that. I made up a story and I left and my heart sank. I was like, this is it. So that was really hard for her. That was really hard for me. And like I said, I'm open to talking about this because I'm such a different person than who I was back then. And I've learned so much about myself. I want to share this in hopes to help people that are stuck in that guilt, shame cycle. Before you do the affair, before you go past, you know, just pornography, fix this part of you open up, be vulnerable about it before it leads to something else that you're going to regret even more. So I Want to give people that courage and that hope.

John Dehlin [01:16:58] You know, I just want to add, obviously, affairs happen in and out of all religions. We're not going to blame Mormonism for any affair that happens. And I also want to say that if you are taught to hide and lie around sexual shame since you're 12 or 13.

Drew Manning [01:17:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:16] You know, you're. You might be more primed to hide and lie about sexual things when you're adult. Whereas if you, maybe if you're taught that, that you're safe, that you can be honest and open, that we're just all learning here.

Drew Manning [01:17:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:31] And there's not so much shame and wrapped around sexual matters. Maybe you can enter into adult relationships and or marriages where you can talk about your feelings and you can talk about things openly. And, you know, you, you haven't spent the past 10 or 15 years of your life living a double life and hiding and lying. That's, again, that's not to blame religion or Mormonism for infidelity. It happens. Atheists and agnostics do it too. It's sort of part of the human experience in some ways. But I can't imagine that learning to hide in life for 10 or 15 or 20 years doesn't have an influence on how you would communicate with your spouse once you're married.

Drew Manning [01:18:13] Yeah. 100. That's why I shared that story of her getting so upset when I told her about pornography. That kind of solidified in my brain. Okay, don't tell people that you love things that you know are going to hurt them. Just suppress it. Pretend it doesn't exist and just do better. Right. Just man up and, and, and be perfect. And so that kind of behavior definitely influenced it for sure. But, you know, I, I own my story of what I did. And, and so it broke her heart. It definitely, you know, I didn't. I thought, we're gonna get divorced. We went through some, like, really shameful things after that. Of, like, okay, I went. I was willing to do anything. I went to the Church recovery Addiction Recovery Program. I went to. We went to counseling. I was disfellowshipped again. Went through that whole process. And, yeah, I remember I couldn't even bless my baby when my baby was born. And that was like, the most shameful thing. I had to lie to my family about why we weren't blessing the baby at a certain time and why we did it in secret. There was all this kind of, like, shame and guilt around, like, me being disfellowshipped and what had happened because I didn't want people to find out about it. I was so worried about what other people thought about me. So, yeah, that's, that's a big part of the story. The story. We stayed together for about five years after that. We stayed together for five years or so, went through ups and downs of like, counseling and trying to work through it and, you know, trying to figure out what, what we do. We, we still went to church this time. We were still faithful members. We couldn't go to the temple, of course, for a long time because of that. But eventually I got refellow shipped and we went back to church and I tried to live this perfect life. You know, I went to addiction recovery, which I think addiction recovery in the church. And what that is for people listening is the church has this program. It's a 12 step program for people with all kinds of addictions. But I mean, let's be honest, it's mostly porn addiction because that's probably the most common thing in the church for men to be addicted to is pornography. And they don't know how to deal with it. So the church came up with their own program, 12 step program, to help men through that. You know, porn addiction, whatever you want to call it. The only thing I say that that came out of that, John, was it helped to normalize pornography for me. I saw all these normal dudes that were just dads like me that grew up in the same culture I did. And these are all just normal guys who look at porn. They just happen to look at porn and there's so much guilt and shame and there was hope there where, oh, maybe we can normalize this and maybe you can overcome this addiction and maybe, yeah, maybe there's some hope, right? I would say that's the only good part of it. Now there were some weird stuff, the way they go about it, where they try and recover you through like a Mormon way of doing things. But I think the thing I took away from it was just normalizing it, that I'm not some weird, disgusting, horrible human because I look at porn.

John Dehlin [01:21:08] No. And just to explain things to our non Mormon listeners. So what the Mormonshurst did is it took the Alcoholics Anonymous model, the 12 step program, imported it into Mormonism, made a few changes, and then they opened up addiction recovery groups led by like senior missionaries, like retired old Mormons who were looking for work, who were untrained mental health professionals, and any Mormon ward and or stake across the country has an addiction recovery program led by these, you know, old couples largely. And it's all these Mormon, mostly men, mostly married men who are in this group who normally. This group that's been designed for alcoholics, drug addicts, et cetera, but really what it is, is they're in there as addicts for masturbation. And sometimes the masturbation is as infrequent as once a month.

Drew Manning [01:22:08] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [01:22:10] But they're treated like addicts. They're called addicts. They refer to themselves as addicts. And they're in this 12 step program to try and cure themselves of an addiction. And if you think I'm crazy, go to the LDS Church's website, type in addiction recovery program. There's a map that you can find to find a local ARP group near you. You type in the zip code for like, let's just say Salt Lake City. There's something like 150 to 200 ARP groups just between Ogden and Provost.

Drew Manning [01:22:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:41] And all these. And they're all over the country. And all these groups are literally just legions of largely Mormon, straight Mormon men, some gay Mormon men. Occasionally there are women there.

Drew Manning [01:22:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:55] But they're there to try and cure themselves of the addiction of masturbation.

Drew Manning [01:23:01] Yes. And looking at porn. So that was, that's kind of, you know, the 12.

John Dehlin [01:23:05] There's so much shame. Yeah, right.

Drew Manning [01:23:07] So much shame. Like, I was, I was. When I. When I got found out, when she found the email, I was open to, like, I will do anything to prove to you that I love you, that I can change. I'll go to addiction recovery. I'll be disfellowshipped. I will disable my Facebook accounts, I'll let you check my phone. I'll do all these things to show you that I can change. And my hope was that I could. And I really believed that I could. I went, you know, to counseling and did what I could to kind of, you know, better myself. And it was all. It was, it was so shameful. I'd say the most dehumanizing part of this whole experience was the part. One part of the, of the addiction recovery program was they had you write down in detail every sin that you can remember in detail every. Everything that you've done that you feel disgusted about. You have to write down all those sins and you have to show someone. You have to confess all of those sexual sins to someone. And I remember I went to my ex wife, Lynn. I know I wasn't supposed to pick her, but I was like, I don't, I can't go to anyone else. Can you just. This is part of my. As part of the process. Will you look at this? And after about like five minutes of looking at it, she was just so infuriated and just, I could tell like

John Dehlin [01:24:19] she just, just you or the process

Drew Manning [01:24:23] of what she was reading of all these things that I hid from her, all these disgusting sexual acts, like, like, you know, looking at porn while she was asleep. All these little details. I had to write down everything. I could recollect every tiny like memory I had of like sexual sin in my entire life. I was like, hey, can I show these to you? And after like a couple minutes she's like, this is disgusting. You're a horrible human being.

John Dehlin [01:24:44] And like, what does that do to a marriage?

Drew Manning [01:24:47] I, I don't know how we survived after that, but we, we eventually didn't. We eventually got divorced. Right? But, but what that did was just in the moment, in the moment she looked at me as almost like I said, inhuman. Like it's such a dehumanizing method that's used to make me feel so disgusted myself, so ashamed that maybe in that disgusting self hate I will change. I will be like, why am I doing this to her? Why am I doing this to myself? I need to change. And that kind of dehumanizing behavior definitely, you know, for a period of time, like I said, it may be helped slightly, but looking back on it now was so unhealthy. And I definitely don't agree with that method of breaking someone down to like, to where they're barely even human and then trying to build them back up and put things together as if everything's going to be okay. So nothing was okay after that. There was. We eventually got divorced. Make a long story short, and it wasn't because I had cheated on her again. I was faithful to her after that.

John Dehlin [01:25:44] Do you feel like she at some point was able to trust him, forgive you and trust you again?

Drew Manning [01:25:48] No. I think the thing that came that the reason we broke up or. Or divorce was because it was literally killing her physically, emotionally, spiritually trying to trust me again. But then her brain, every time I go on a business trip or every time I go to the gym, every time I'm out alone on the phone, she doesn't know. I've lied to her face before in the past about who I was and what I was doing, what is going to cause her to believe me now? So that trust was never there. Even though I'd be like, check my phone. You can check my phone. I promise you I'm not doing these things. Check my computer. I tried to prove to her that I was perfect again and that I had changed. And that isn't healthy either. Like, that wasn't healthy for me to just constantly be on eggshells like, look, I'm not doing anything. And then we would watch a movie with infidelity happening and then just cringe like that feeling of like, yeah, this isn't funny anymore. This isn't fun. And so she would go to bed crying and I would feel bad about myself. And there was roller coasters, there was moments where we were laughing and intimate again and there was moments where we were like, she would cry herself to sleep. And it never really fully got better until we met this life coach here in Salt Lake City. Her name is Catherine Dixon. She does the work by Byron Katie. And it wasn't until I met her, that's where my life changed. That's where after the divorce of Rapport. This is before the divorce, right before the divorce. And she, Katherine was the first person in this world that taught me to learn how to love myself. No church leader, no adult in my life to that point ever convinced me that I was lovable and that I was worthy. She was the first person to teach me to learn how to love myself. It was a three hour session. I cried harder than I've ever cried in my life and I cried like a baby in that session with her. But by the end of the session, the way the work and Tim Ferriss talks about this on his podcast. He's a big fan of the work and how, the methods, the four questions. Yeah, I recommend anyone out there read her book Loving what Is by Byron Katie. That first session totally flipped things around where I'm. I had this glimmer of hope that maybe I am lovable despite my past. Maybe I'm lovable despite having an affair and being addicted to porn and masturbating and having all these sins. Maybe I am still worthy. And that was the first time where I'm like, you know, maybe I don't have to define myself by my past. And then working with her, I was able to finally embrace vulnerability as a strength. I started reading Brene Brown's books. Daring Greatly is a highly is one I highly recommend to anyone out there that deals with guilt and shame about your past. Read Daring Greatly, Rising Strong, Braving the Wilderness. Those three books by Brene Brown. Highly, highly recommend those books in shifting your perception of you and your what you've done in the past and all the things that have brought you shame. One of the things I Learned about shame is the more you keep it quiet, the more you suppress it, the louder, the more control it has over you. And when you finally embrace vulnerability and you open up and talk about those things that bring you shame, guess what? That shame has less and less control over you. The more open and honest you are. And I remember one of the things that inspired me to eventually share my story was listening to Terry Crews, this actor, very famous in Hollywood. Big muscly guy. We see him in the Old Spice commercials. Very funny. He did a Facebook Live one day where he talked about his pornography addiction. I'm like, dude, how is this guy, this. This Hollywood actor, you know, just your man's man, able to come on Facebook Live and talk about pornography addiction? Like, that was so inspiring to me. And I was like, man, I hope one day I can share my story and be brave enough to share my story publicly like him. Because that's where I feel like real healing happens. And so the first thing I did was be, first of all, be open to life coaching. I wasn't open to therapy or life coaching because that's what at least my perception of our culture and the church was. All your answers are here. You just need to pray, read the scriptures, go to the temple, listen to your bishop, and you will have all the answers you need. But, you know, doing the work by Byron Katie, reading Brene Brown's books, I started to embrace vulnerability as a strength. I had hit rock bottom, and I was like, I'm willing to learn any new methods. I started meditating at this time. And this is where things were with the church started to unravel for me as well. Around this same time where I started learning these techniques and methods and reading Brene Brown's work and working with Katherine Dixon, doing the work, like, that's where some things with Lynn changed our trajectory because of the church, because of what happened.

Finding Perspective on the Church's Role in Shame

John Dehlin [01:30:24] I just want to kind of. I just had kind of an aha moment, and I want to float it. And you are. Or Carrie, you guys can check me on this. Like, if the church needs you to be broken so that you need them, there's a degree to which I would say, subconsciously, the church doesn't want you to become whole and healthy. That probably sounds weird because again, I'm not saying that the church leaders are going, muah, ha ha ha. How do we keep people sinful and broken? But they really don't have an incentive for you to be super healthy and happy or you might not need them anymore. And so I just. I'M noticing the irony that the truths and the principles that you are learning in your story, in this chronology, that help you become honest and whole and lose the shame and become more emotionally aware, to become more in tune, more mature, even less toxically male, whatever. You're learning these outside of Mormonism from New Age gurus or wisdom leaders that the church would never want to ever quote in General conference, and you're not learning them from Neal A. Maxwell, Gordon B. Hinckley, Thomas S. Monson, your priesthood manual, Elders Quorum, all the years, decades of Mormon instruction. You're not learning basic marriage skills. You're not learning basic emotional health. You're not learning honesty, true honesty. You're not learning vulnerability. You're not learning emotional maturity, communication skills, because those things are never taught in a Mormon context. Am I. Am I wrong, Drew? Am I wrong, Kara?

Drew Manning [01:32:04] No, you're right. You're absolutely right. And that these kinds of things you can't find within the church. And this is why when I started using these tools, it was so helpful. It got me. Because the thing with the church is that, you know, all the tools, like, you know, okay, here's the scriptures. This is the lesson. There's nothing really new if you're just reading the Book of Mormon over and over again a million times. There's no new methods or techniques that you're learning. But if you read some new, you know, some researcher on. On shame and guilt, come out with a book called Daring Greatly, you're learning all these new methods of, like, man, that makes perfect sense. That right there is helping me see these, you know, epiphanies where I'm like, oh, I see my situation through a new light now. I see this new perspective that I couldn't see before because I was only. I only had, like, four or five tools to use. To use now I have all these other tools, and it's. It's like, light years ahead of what I had learned in this bubble over here. So.

Guest [01:32:54] Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:32:55] No, no, don't start. You're. Don't apologize.

Drew Manning [01:32:58] You're the guest.

John Dehlin [01:33:00] Did you want to add anything or. No. No pressure if you don't.

Guest [01:33:03] Yeah, I'm really happy that you brought up this subject, because from a Mormon's perspective, if you think that you have the truth and these men talk to God, what could be better than hearing from that kind of mouthpiece of God, the best information on everything that you need to live a good, fulfilling, healthy, happy life and marriage and the idea that, yeah, you'll find things like Brene Brown and you'll find other things, but nothing's going to compare to the light and knowledge and wisdom of these men. And it just sounds like it really fell short at convincing you of your worth. So as somebody I told in my Mormon story about how I was very convinced actually by the, the ideas around divine nature as a woman and I didn't have to feel a lot of those feelings of shame. And so I kind of like escaped. Luckily a lot of that, those teachings went over my head and I didn't have a lot of that horrible sexual repression and things because I attached myself to the healthiest possible interpretation of the scriptures and those things. And so I'm really glad that we're bringing up that part of this that your history. But then also I wanted to ask so to a Mormon who's listening to this, somebody who doesn't understand how this shame is not necessary. This shame is very much an invented mechanism. I've just been reading a little bit of the comments here and people are people, I'll say one person is, I don't think, quite attaching and understanding why you were talking about the shame that you felt that led to your infidelity. Whereas I think a normal Mormon in the church would just say, oh, obviously one plus two equals three. If you're looking at porn, you just went the next level. And that obviously led to then going outside of a computer screen into the real life. What so to, to whatever you want to say to that kind of that argument or that comment.

Drew Manning [01:34:54] Yeah, well, first of all, I can't change someone's perception if that's the way that after hearing my story, that's the way they're going to look at it, you know, and I can't control that. So I don't really have anything to convince them of like, no, this is my story. And they, this is my experience. I can't do a whole lot other than say, hey, I know for a fact that the shame and the guilt that I had growing up caused my behavior to be a certain way to where, you know, I looked at myself as a failure. And so because I looked at myself as a failure, I continue to do failure like things, whether it was an affair, whether, whether the affair happened or not. The, the, the sense of shame and, and self hate and failure, like feelings were there before the affair happened. And you know, I feel like, you know, for Lynn and I, we didn't get divorced just because of the affair. It was, it wasn't like she divorced me the next day after that affair happened. And so I. I feel like people that are just looking at this from an outside perspective are missing, you know, a lot of the. The human components of the story and just jumping to conclusions, like, oh, you looked at porn. Oh, then you did this bad thing next. Got it. That's in the story for me. That's all I need to know. It's like, this is why I wear this shirt called. That says empathy on it. Because empathy for me is truly listening to understand someone instead of listening to judge someone, listening to respond or critique. Because you are. You just don't care enough to hear someone's story. And that's why it's so hard to hate someone close up. Once you hear their story, once you listen to them, then you truly understand why they do what they do. But if you're just judge, listening to judge, and jump to conclusions, I feel like that says a lot more about you than it does about, you know, me and my story and what I did. Like, I can connect the dots easy because I live that experience. I know what, what, what. What happened in my life that led me to that. So it's hard for someone that's listening to be like, oh, okay, wait, so porn. Okay, fair. Okay, yeah, I've heard this story before, you know, so.

John Dehlin [01:36:49] And. And you're making. Were you gonna say something? Okay, yeah. And you're making me. You know, this is reminding me of the Shakespeare interview. So I did an interview with Matthew Shakespeare.

Drew Manning [01:36:56] Yes, I remember that.

John Dehlin [01:36:57] And. And. And Matthew is a bishop who had an affair. And that's actually been the most controversial Mormon Stories podcast episode since probably Mike Norton knew. Named Noah. And it's because everybody felt like because Matt was trying to explain what happened with Elizabeth, the woman that he was counseling, they immediately interpreted an attempt to understand or explain with. They sort of viewed that as trying to make an excuse or blame someone else for bad behavior. And I just believe there has to be a way for someone to be able to tell their story and try their best to sort of say, how did this happen? Let me explore and figure out why this happened, because I didn't want to do that. I don't think I'm an evil monster. So how did this happen? There has to be a way for people to be able to explain what their experience is without immediately just saying, number one, oh, it must have been porn, or, oh, you left the church, or you, you know, whatever. Yeah, so that's why you did it. Or to equate an attempt to understand, in other words, to. To develop self Empathy or empathy for someone else. To equate that with excuse making or trying to not take responsibility. Because I don't hear at all you saying that you weren't responsible for your actions. And just to be clear, we are not blaming the Mormon Church for infidelity. It happens everywhere. In and out of Mormonism, in and out of religion. That is not what we're doing. But if we want to learn from bad behavior, if we want to learn. And of course infidelity is bad behavior. If we want to learn from bad behavior and maybe even have a chance for other generations to avoid it when other people might have fallen into it.

Drew Manning [01:38:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:45] Doesn't it help to try and understand it and see? Maybe if we had approached things differently, maybe it would have happened a little bit less. That doesn't mean we're ever going to eradicate pornography or masturbation or infidelity, but certainly understanding these things, maybe for our listeners and viewers, maybe there's young people listening, other people that are considering an affair, maybe. Check out Byron, Katie, Check out Brene Brown. Check out getting Emotionally Healthy. Check out honesty. Check out emotional intimacy. Get a coach. Maybe you can avoid infidelity. If you listen to some of the lessons that Drew is. And I should have to say several listeners are saying this. It is so courageous of you to just stand here and admit an infidelity. To be open and honest about that and to be vulnerable. And I think that doesn't deserve. That doesn't mean that you should be shamed. It means you, I believe you should be congratulated for your willingness to be open and honest and vulnerable. That's what I think.

Drew Manning [01:39:49] No, and I appreciate that. And I think there's something to be said. And Brene Brown talks about this, too. It's not the critic that counts. It's the man in the arena, you know, so I'm willing to step into the arena. I'm willing to talk about those vulnerable things and, and be open and honest and own my story. There's power in owning your story and, and stepping into the arena. You leave yourself open for the critics out there that are going to watch from the stands and be like, boo, you did this. I hate you. Like, cool. But that, that the critics aren't the ones that count, in my opinion.

John Dehlin [01:40:18] That's the Teddy Roosevelt quote.

Drew Manning [01:40:20] That's the great Roosevelt quote that Brene Brown uses in her. In some of her work, which is perfect. It's perfect for this, this specific situation as well, because it's so easy to unsettle Social media just to sit back and be like, oh, you know, we don't, I don't have time to listen to the whole story. Therefore I'm just going to make this quick little judgment and, and like make that assumption in my head of that's all that happens. It's like the reason I want to share this is to give people out there that maybe don't know themselves or maybe they've been affected by an affair to look at things through a new lens instead of the hate and resentment and anger that you hold on to. Maybe if you learn to understand it and you can empathize, you can see it through a new lens and you don't have to see it as this bad, horrible, disgusting thing. And that's why I like Esther Perel's work. She talks a lot about, what's the name of her book? Do any of you guys know her books? So after the Mating Captivity and then the other one is the State of Affairs.

Guest [01:41:15] State of Affairs.

Drew Manning [01:41:15] Very good book on infidelity and monogamy and all that stuff. And it definitely can help out a lot of people that they might have a perception of infidelity and affairs. And this is, let me just say this really quick, quick. Even with the affair, even with the hurt, the pain, Lynn, my ex wife and I are still good friends to this day. To where we have a good co parenting relationship. It's healthy. We've both done the work on ourselves. To where she doesn't have to feel the, the guilt and the shame and the self hate that happened because of the affair and she can look at me and not hate me and despise me and keep my kids from me. Why? Because she's done the work on herself and she's come to realize that, that my affair had nothing to do with her. My infidelity had nothing to do with her. And she's free from that. But it took her years to learn that because when it first happens, all that fear based thinking is I should have been different. I could have done that, I could have done this. And I think a lot of women, you know, go there and I think it's, it's hard to explain to someone my affair, my, I'll say it, my has nothing to do with, with, with other people. It has to do with how I view myself. Everything that we do in this life is a reflection of how we see ourselves. We are a mirror of, of how we treat other people is a mirror of how we see ourselves. Right? So if you see yourself as a Failure. If you judge yourself, you hate yourself. Guess what? You're going to see yourself, see other people through that same lens. And this is why empathy is so powerful. And this is why I'm trying to bring more empathy to the fitness industry, is because if you can have empathy for yourself first and foremost, because we all know we've made mistakes, we all know we've done things that are wrong, if you can have empathy for yourself first and foremost, it's going to be easier to empathize with other people that maybe in the past you might have judged, you might have disagreed with. And this is why this world needs more empathy now more than ever. I'm trying to bring fitness empathy to the fitness industry because there's a lot of judgment that goes on in the fitness industry, you know, based on body image. And this is why I think Brene Brown's work is so important, is because we need to learn to develop empathy for ourselves. And then after that we can learn to develop empathy for other people. And this world would be a much, much better place if we listen to understand instead of listen to judge and critique.

Guest [01:43:36] So anyways, I'm so happy that you and your wife have a good, sorry, ex wife, have a good co parenting that she's able to understand and like kind of untangle the reasons why you did things. That's a, that's really inspiring that you guys have gotten to that point.

Drew Manning [01:43:53] Thank you. And I'm grateful for her for doing that because at the end of the day, if she doesn't do the work and if I don't do the work and when she, and she stays in that victim mindset, that mentality that those emotions that stay stuck there will probably get passed on to our kids and our kids are the ones that will end up suffering. If you don't do the work on yourself, you're going to bleed on those who didn't cut you. Let me say that again. If you don't do the work on yourself to fix yourself, you're going to bleed on those people who didn't even cut you. So whether that's your kids, whether that's your spouse, if you're holding on to trauma that you haven't let go of, that you can't figure out how to forgive or forget or move on and work through and release, I promise you it'll manifest itself in certain ways where that, you know, gets passed on from you to the next generation. And this is why racism, this is why hate, this is why so much hurt gets passed on from generation to generations because we haven't healed that trauma. And this is why I am a huge proponent of breaking that cycle. So what do I need to do? I had to leave my religion. I had to heal myself from the inside so that these kinds of, you know, self hate, failure like mentality doesn't get passed down to my kids.

John Dehlin [01:45:02] So what time do you have to go?

Drew Manning [01:45:03] Oh, what time is it?

Guest [01:45:05] 1:22.

Drew Manning [01:45:06] Okay, we got 20 minutes.

John Dehlin [01:45:07] Okay, so let's jump to that. So how did you go from getting a coach healing with your ex wife but also getting divorced to leaving the church? Tell us, tell us how that.

Divorce, Faith Crisis, and Leaving the Church

Drew Manning [01:45:19] Yeah, so the, the divorce and the leaving the church happened around the same time. So Lynn and I, you know, we work through, you know, know some of the issues. We stayed together, we hid it from people, we wore a mask, we pretended like we were happy even though we were struggling. Fast forward to we were living in Eagle Mountain, Utah. My ex wife, Lynn was watching your TED Talk. This is around 2013, 2014.

John Dehlin [01:45:41] Yeah, that's when I gave it.

Drew Manning [01:45:42] Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:43] On the LGBT Mormon experience.

Drew Manning [01:45:46] Yes. And she, after seeing that, because she grew up with a lot of gay friends. I did. She grew up with a lot of gay friends. After seeing that, she posted on Facebook Sunday morning that she was in support of gay marriage. And she shared your, your, your, your TED Talk on Facebook. We go to church, we come home. The bishop calls me and says, hey, I need to stop by your house. And I was like, okay. And he shows up at the house and he's like, hey, you know, how are you guys doing? Blah, blah, blah. So we were told that you posted something on social media, Lynn, and we need to talk to you about that. And she's like, okay. And he's like, we saw that you posted, you know, that you're in favor of gay marriage and you share John Dillon's TED Talk. And she's like, yep. And he's like, okay. Well he's like, is that how you feel? And she's like, yep. And he's like, well, we need to take away your temper recommend. And yeah, she was devastated.

John Dehlin [01:46:43] She.

Drew Manning [01:46:44] He's like, but if you take it down, then we can give your temple recommend back. And she was that obviously. She was like, no, I'm not going to take it down. That's how I truly feel. She's like, these kids are killing themselves and the guilt and the shame and the self hate for being gay and being Mormon is detrimental and we need to stop this. And, and I just have To.

John Dehlin [01:47:05] I just have to jump in here. Like, this is a kind of a Leah Remini moment where I could hear Leah saying, that's crazy. Like, like in 20. No, in 2014, maybe 14.

Drew Manning [01:47:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:16] This is just six or seven years ago, and it's still happening in 2021. A Mormon bishop can find out that somebody makes a private post on a personal Facebook page just saying, hey, I think same sex marriage is okay, or I love LGBT people or whatever. Here's a TED Talk I liked.

Drew Manning [01:47:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:34] And number one, it can get. Get reported back to that bishop or church leader within a matter of minutes, if not hours, if not days. And then they can call you into their office or come visit you and literally start kicking off the process of investigating you, disciplining you, punishing you and threatening you with your membership for something as innocuous as sharing a TED Talk.

Drew Manning [01:48:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:04] Am I exaggerating?

Drew Manning [01:48:05] No, you're absolutely right. And I think the reason that she got called out was because, you know, that by this time I had done Fit to Fat to Fit and Fit to Fat to Fit kind of went viral and people knew who I was. I wrote a book, and so people, you know, we were kind of like a, I guess, public figure, you could say so. And she was married to me because her sister shared her post on her Facebook, but no one knew who her sister was, so no one went after her sister. But because someone saw her post, they told the stake Presidency, the State Presidency, called the bishop because here's what happened. The bishop said, look, I am under orders of this from the State Presidency to do this. They. I. He's like, I feel this is wrong. I feel like this isn't right.

John Dehlin [01:48:45] Harassing you, they mean.

Drew Manning [01:48:47] The bishop said, I feel like taking away the temple recommend is. Is the wrong thing to do. Yeah, but he said he was under orders by the Stake Presidency. I think the. I don't remember who the stake president was, but I think Clayton was the guy's last name. The. And the Stake Presidency that ordered him, the bishop, to take away the temp recommend. And for everyone that's listening, a temple recommend is your, like, pass to get into the temple. Like, because only certain members of the church can go into the temple. And by taking that away meant that she could no longer enter into the temple. And she was deemed unworthy because she posted that. That post on social media. So she was crying and he's like, are you sure you don't want to take away. Take down your Facebook post? And she's like, no, this is how I really feel. And so he took away her temple recommend. And she was crying. She was devastated. And even though the bishop knew it was wrong, he did it because the Stake Presidency told him to do it. And that was. That was a pretty pivotal moment for us. We were pretty devastated. I was kind of hurt by it. I didn't feel like that was necessary. But I. I want to support my wife life and what she believes. So I was like, okay, I'm not going to go to the temple either, because you can't go. I was like, you know, I will, you know, stand by your side in this, even though the church is saying otherwise. So. So we still went to church after that. We transferred out of our home ward and went to a Tongan branch, which was so much more receptive. We told them what happened and they're like, really? That happened to you guys? Like, yeah, we don't care about that. Like, we could care less. Like, do you want to serve the youth? Cool. We want you guys to serve. Like, we don't care about that. So they, like, gave us a calling. We still went to church for a little bit after that. Then we moved to Hawaii. We moved to the big island of Hawaii. We lived in Kona. And that's where my brother, my older brother, he introduced me to you, John. And I was like, okay, I'll start listening to Mormon stories. And was listening. And then you mentioned about the Mormon essays. I was like, what are Mormon essays? So I googled that, that pulled those up and that's where I started reading these things about the different versions of the first vision. And I was like, okay, this is not what I was taught. This is not what I was. I memorized word for word this first vision on my mission. How is it that his first version of the first vision of him seeing God and Jesus Christ had nothing to do with what I was told? What happened? And there was all these different versions that I'm like, how could. Like, how could. Like I'm trying to think of myself as a human. If I had a remarkable experience.

John Dehlin [01:51:13] We're talking about Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith, for our listeners who have no idea, the founder. When is the founder of Mormonism? Allegedly in 1820, he saw God in Jesus. Yeah, that's the story we've all been taught.

Drew Manning [01:51:25] And they told him that none of the churches were true and that the. The true church would be re established through him. Kind of in a nutshell. And that's the version that we were taught was that God and Jesus Christ, two separate beings showed up to him and told him none of the churches were true. And then the first version of the first vision, he didn't even go to ask them which church was true. Right. He went to be forgiven of his sins. Right. So I was only.

John Dehlin [01:51:49] And it was only the Lord, he said when he wrote down in 1832, it was only the Lord that visited him, not the Father and the Son, because his theology yet hadn't evolved to where he believed God and Jesus were separate. And so basically, what we're saying to our listeners is Joseph Smith's story of the first vision changed over time, got more elaborate, and none of us were ever taught this. And you learned this in one of the Gospel topics essays that the church came out with in the 2013, 2014.

Drew Manning [01:52:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:19] And this is the first time in however many years of being Mormon you'd ever heard this.

Drew Manning [01:52:22] Yeah, I'd ever heard of it. Yeah. I was, you know, 30 plus years old at that time. And I was like, this is so different than what I was taught. Like, what is happening? And then blacks in the priesthood. So here's another thing, is that that in the early days of the church, blacks weren't allowed to hold the priesthood, the power of God until a very convenient time of 1976, 8, 1978. And we were taught. This is what I taught people on my mission, that the reason blacks weren't allowed to hold the priesthood was because one that's. God sometimes held the priesthood from certain groups of people. And that this was a revelation from God, that this is what God wanted, that he didn't want the blacks to have the priesthood for a long period of time. And then he changed his mind in 1978 and said, now blacks can hold the priesthood. And the. In the essays, it said how that was a mistake, that that was never a revelation from God, that that was just Brigham Young, one of the. He was the prophet after Joseph Smith. He was the one who established that blacks couldn't hold the priesthood. And the church admitted that that was wrong. And in my mind, I'm like, okay, here's this prophet of God that speaks to God supposedly. And God supposedly told him not to give blacks the priesthood. But now the church is admitting God never told him that, that that was just his own prejudice. Right. Because everyone was racist back then and had slaves supposedly. So that's kind of what he was, a product of his environment. But that's not the biggest issue I have, is how come every prophet after that that speaks to God never got the revelation that that was wrong. Because if it was a, if it was never a revelation, wouldn't the prophets after that know that that was never a revelation? Wouldn't they know, like, because they speak to God, that, hey, that Brigham Young guy, he messed up with this to go ahead and reverse this. But then it was reversed in a very convenient time when there was a lot of pressure from society to change in 1978 so that the blacks could hold the priesthood finally. And I was just able to see through this, like, okay, these are men that are making things up. Like, I'm sorry, they're just making things up. They're doing the best they can. But what's different between this religion, every religion where there's these white men who are leaders of the church that claim they speak to God, but they're, they're making mistakes and they're hiding things. And I couldn't figure out why, you know, why they were hiding these things and why I didn't see this before. And the thing that really, really kind of forced me to kind of give up hope, I guess you can say on, on these men speaking for God and this being the one and true only church was the policy. In 2015, the church came out with a policy saying that kids of gay parents couldn't be baptized until they were 18 years old. And they had to disavow their gay parents practices at the age of 18 and then they could get baptized. And this was something that was leaked into the press thanks to John de Lynn. This is something that was leaked. It wasn't like a revelation where the prophet said, hey, this God just spoke, spoke to me and he said that kids of gay parents can't get baptized anymore. And when it was leaked, it was all over the news like Washington Post, New York Times. This was all over the news. The Mormon church not doesn't allow gay kids or kids of gay parents to get baptized in the church. And I was like, this is wrong. Even people that were super like 100 Mormon were like, this is fake, this isn't real. The church would never do that, right? And then they realized this is real. The church really did come out with this policy saying that kids of gay parents couldn't get baptized. And I was like, okay, this is the perfect. Cuz I had just read the Mormon essays and I started to realize that these men made mistakes. And I was like, this is a mistake. Why can't the church see that this is a mistake? Why would they want to put this in place? This does not feel from God. This does not feel like this is from God. If this was revelation, and I would want to see whoever. There was a prophet at the time, Thomas S. Mawson, maybe to be like, look, I just received a revelation. It's going to be hard for me to say this. This is what God said to me. He's. He said that kids of gay parents can't get baptized anymore. Please don't kill the messenger. This isn't what I want. God told me this is what. Like, that's how I would feel a revelation from God should come if that's really how it happens. Like, instead of like, oh, put this in the manual and don't tell anyone about it. Oh, it got leaked. Shoot. Oh, man, what are we going to do now? And then they came out with like a response, like, three weeks later saying that this is a revelation from God. And, you know, this is why God wants this to happen, is to protect the kids. And then fast forward three years, 2018, they reversed that policy. And they're like, never mind, God changed his mind. And for me, it was so clear. Like, why can't we question these men? Why are we just blindly following them when we know that they make mistakes? And instead of like, denying that, just accept the fact that they make mistakes. And maybe we can listen to our hearts and be like, you know what? This policy is not from God. It's not for me. It's. It's bs. Like, the word of wisdom for me is like, how can we not. Like, I work in health and fitness. How do we not know that prescription drugs are bad for us or that sugar, you know, consumption, like, is bad for us and energy drinks are bad for us.

John Dehlin [01:57:41] Was.

Drew Manning [01:57:41] But we're still stuck on this coffee and tea thing. You know, that was. That came out in, like, the 1800s. How is there not any other revelation about health that coincides with what science is saying? Like, how can we not get past this? Like, we're still sucking coffee and tea when there's millions of studies, not millions, but thousands of studies showing how healthy these substances are. And just to make it a obedience thing is like, can we see. Can we use a little bit of logic and just see that. That this isn't what we were taught? This isn't what. The way we were raised in the 80s, we didn't question things. We didn't have access to Google, we didn't have access to the Internet. But now all these things are coming out. It just was so clear to me that, look, this church is a. It's a good Church, they do good things, they, you know, preach good things, they help a lot of people out. And yes, for some people, it provides structure where it makes them feel safe and it, maybe it's right for them, maybe it is. But I think it's, we live in this age now where there's this awakening happening where people are, feel safe to question things that don't feel right. And we can break this cycle of staying stuck in the same kind of loops and patterns that we have for the past, you know, X amount of years or decades where we just don't question anything and we just like, oh, okay, that's, that's coming from the church. Don't drink soda, don't drink, you know, Coca Cola. You know, you know, all these things that come from the, the head of the church, it's like, why can't we question those things ever? And so for me, I knew that look, the 2015 thing, I was like, look, I can't. Like, this is all just made up. Like, why would, why would God want kids of gay parents not to get baptized? That makes no sense at all. And that's not the God that I, even if I, you know, believed in Mormon God, that's not the Mormon God that I believed in at the time,

John Dehlin [01:59:30] you know, and it's worse because that, that policy made same sex married Mormons, it tagged them as being worse than murderers and rapists. Because a Mormon murderer or Mormon rapist or child abuser pedophile does not necessarily warrant an immediate excommunication. When the church came out with that Exclusion Policy In November 2015, they declared that same sex marriage was immediate grounds for disciplinary council and excommunication, which made just a couple that wanted to make long term committed same sex love a high priority. It flagged them as worse than murders and pedophiles within the Mormon Church, in addition to the exclusion of their children. And that was just outrageous.

Drew Manning [02:00:25] And that's, that's like, I wasn't okay with that. And I knew that was wrong. And I think people in their heart of hearts, whether they were Mormon or not, felt that was wrong. They'd felt like initially, but they're like, oh, I trust that the church wouldn't do anything to harm people. You know, I, but I do feel like in people's hearts when they first heard that, they're like, yeah, that doesn't feel right. That does not feel good. And so I know that that's how I felt, that's how other people felt. And for me, I'm like, okay, I'm. I'm. I'm looking at things through a new lens now. But then that's the hard part, is you kind of lose your identity in losing your religion. You're like, who am I without my religion? Who am I without my marriage? And so for me, both those things came tumbling down around the same time. Divorce, religion.

John Dehlin [02:01:08] What year was this?

Drew Manning [02:01:09] 2015, 2016.

John Dehlin [02:01:11] Okay.

Drew Manning [02:01:11] Ish. You know? Yeah, that's when we got divorced, and that's when I left the church around the same time. And I'm like, well, I'm on this path to discover who I am without this stuff, without being told who I'm supposed to be, without being told what I'm supposed to believe for the first time. And, yeah, it can be scary. And, yeah, you can, you know, harbor a lot of resentment and hate towards this institution that you felt, like, lied to you for sure. And I've probably been through those days in the beginning, when I first started listening to your. Your podcast of resentment and, like, anger of, like, being lied to. But that all the work I've done has gotten me to this place of where I am today, where I'm like, look, I don't hold any anger, resentment, because I feel like, honestly, every person in this world is doing the best they can with the knowledge that they have at that moment in time. And I trust that Brene Brown talks a lot about that. For me, I can't control what the church does and does, what they say and what they don't say and what they do and what they don't do. I can't control that. For me, all I can control is my perception of that.

John Dehlin [02:02:10] That.

The Fit2Fat2Fit Story and Personal Philosophy

Drew Manning [02:02:10] And all I can control is. Is. Is my business. And so for me to focus on my business, that's where you can find true happiness. When you try and control an organization, when you try and control a country, a political party, when you try and control your friend, your mom, your dad, and you can't control it, you realize you can't control it. That's where you suffer in life, is when you try and control other people's business or God's business. Like, I can't control the weather. I can't control natural disasters. I can't control all these things. And when you try and live in this world of trying to control that, like, on social media, like, trying to tear people down and. And attack people who believe differently than you, you live in this world of. Of misery, in my opinion. And for me to let go of that was the most freeing thing in the world. And now, you know, I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know. And that is scary. But our ego wants us to believe that we, we know. Right. That makes us feel safe. Like, hey, we know what's going to happen after this life. We know where we were before this life. And that for me is ego driven, you know, And I recommend the book Ego's the Enemy from Ryan Holiday is a great book to listen to, to learn how your ego makes you suffer in certain situations where you want to know the truth, you want, you know, we want to know everything. But to not know is scary for some people because they, that, that they lose that part of their ego and that sense of self in a way where it's scary to say, I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:03:40] So we've got like five minutes before you go.

Drew Manning [02:03:42] I know, I'm trying to make this short.

John Dehlin [02:03:43] No, no, no, no. You've been great. And I, you know, I think it's important to take time to tell these stories. I would spend an hour with you on how hard it is to leave the church and then how hard it is to build up a life again. And then I want to hear, I want to spend an hour on you building your, your business, your brand, your identity and everything you've learned about fitness.

Guest [02:04:03] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:04:03] So I don't quite know what to do because, you know, you gotta go and I'm just grateful for the time. Sure. So what, you know, why don't you tell us just quickly about your, your business and, and what you stand for.

Drew Manning [02:04:17] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:04:17] And what you've done and what it means and whatever time's remaining.

Drew Manning [02:04:20] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:04:21] Because I, I would, if this is the only time we end up having with you, I would, would probably hate myself most if we didn't give a chance to talk about that.

Drew Manning [02:04:29] Yeah, no, I appreciate that and I'll talk to you after, see if we can make another follow up interview happen. But basically with Fit to Fat to Fit and what I do now is I'm on a mission to bring more empathy to the fitness industry. I think every single human in this world wants to be understood right. And when it comes to health and fitness and people's weight, you know, the fitness industry is a very judgmental place where people are judged off of body image and you know, what they look like, they're their, their outward appearance. And for me, I'm trying to bring more awareness of letting people know that transformation, whether it's physical transformation or you want to lose weight, is way more mental and emotional than we think. And the emotional connection to food is way more powerful than we think. And I think, you know, people, they don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. So if you're a trainer, a coach, a leader in or you're a doctor, if people don't feel like they're truly cared about by you, they're probably not going to be willing to listen what you to what you have to say. Yeah, no one cares. No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care. And so for me, having done fit to fat to fit twice now where I intentionally gained weight.

John Dehlin [02:05:35] So you tell us how much you had were and then what you gained.

Drew Manning [02:05:38] So I was 193 and I got up to 269.

John Dehlin [02:05:42] Whoa.

Drew Manning [02:05:42] Yeah, my first time.

John Dehlin [02:05:43] On purpose.

Drew Manning [02:05:44] On purpose.

John Dehlin [02:05:45] Not on accident.

Drew Manning [02:05:46] No, this is on purpose. And I did this back in 2011. Documented the whole journey. And then I did it again just recently. Like I just so. £70, £75 the first time. And then I did it just recently as a 40 year old. So I was, I was 31 when I first did it. Did it again as a 40 year old to kind of show people again 70 again, 62.

John Dehlin [02:06:05] And can we just say it's super unhealthy. Would you agree to be gaining weight intentionally and to be trying to lose weight that fast intentionally? I don't think you're doing that as a model for how people should behave.

Drew Manning [02:06:16] But what I wanted when I did it the first time, I was truly humbled and I learned how wrong I was and how it was a developed

John Dehlin [02:06:23] became empathy for people that 100%.

Drew Manning [02:06:25] I developed so much empathy because I used to be judgmental, like, why can't people just stop eating junk food? Like, dude.

John Dehlin [02:06:31] And there's genetic profile and there's life context and emotional profile. Yes, that makes it. And there's this metabolism. Right. Which makes it. So not everyone, literally, even if everybody did exactly what you did, ate exactly what you ate, they're not going to exercise exactly like you exercise. Margi kind of coached me on this a little bit beforehand. They, they may not be able to physically lose gain or lose the weight like you did. Is that fair to say?

Drew Manning [02:06:57] Yes, 100%.

John Dehlin [02:06:57] Okay.

Drew Manning [02:06:58] You know, and that's the thing is like it's, it's learning how to love yourself. Your body where it's at now, even though it might not be perfect while you try and work on this better version of yourself. But the problem is our perception of Success in health and fitness is, is. Is so fixated on getting skinny, getting the body. Once I have this body, then I'll be loved, then people will love me, then I'll respect myself. And it's like, one day when this happens, I'm trying to bring more awareness to the fitness industry of when you see someone that's overweight, it's so easy to judge them and be like, look, why do you eat so much food? It's very similar to going up to a drug addict and be like, dude, just stop doing drugs, and then your life will be better. It's like, stop it. Yeah, Just. It's like, just don't do it. It's like, of course. But, but the emotional connection that we have to food is very similar to drugs, where some people use food as an escape, some people use it to numb their emotional pain that they feel in life. And all I'm trying to say is if we can learn to be more empathetic towards those people, they will feel more understood, and then they'll probably be more willing to listen to people that aren't shaming them for their weight or make them feel less than they're going to be more willing to maybe make some positive changes. Whether they get skinnier or not is irrelevant. None of that matters. It really doesn't. Because that would mean that everyone that's skinny and fit is. Is happy. But I know a lot of. Yeah. And healthy. I know a lot of miserable people that are skinny. 5% body fat.

John Dehlin [02:08:23] Or you can be 5. Unhealthy, too.

Drew Manning [02:08:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:08:26] You can be miserable and skinny and fit, or you can be skinny and unhealthy.

Drew Manning [02:08:31] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:31] True.

Drew Manning [02:08:32] Yes, very true. So don't look at getting this body as okay, then. I'll be happy once this happens.

John Dehlin [02:08:37] Or healthy.

Drew Manning [02:08:38] Exactly. Or healthy. And so that's kind of what I'm trying to disrupt, the fitness industry is by bringing more empathy. And even with this episode. Yes, I, I want. I would love empathy from. From other people going after leaving the church. People that stay in the church, they want empathy, too, for staying in the church. Let's have more empathy for other people instead of. Of causing more division and causing more hate and more anger towards people you don't even know. And if you knew them, you probably wouldn't hate them. That's all I'm trying to say. So for now, let's push pause. I'll see what I can do to make it happen. To come back on.

John Dehlin [02:09:13] Yeah. And I'll just. I know, I know. You Gotta run. I just want to say, it seems like, just to tie this back to Mormonism, it seems like the approach you're taking to fitness is the antithesis or the opposite of the approach that the church took to you.

Drew Manning [02:09:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:09:27] Regarding porn and masturbation and even infidelity.

Drew Manning [02:09:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:09:31] It's, it's the opposite of a shame based, negative sin deficit approach. Am I, am I just making that up?

Drew Manning [02:09:39] That's a great, that's a great observation. That's what I'm trying to do. And all of this ties into this. What I do with fit to add to fit, leaving the Mormon Church, going through what I went through, my infidelity, my porn addiction, all those lessons that I've learned tie into how I coach people in health and fitness now because, because all of that is tied together. You don't. When you go on a physical weight loss journey, it's not just physical, it's mental, it's emotional, it's spiritual. Same thing with a spiritual journey. When you go through a spiritual transition in life, it is tied to other areas of your life. And if you can realize that and, and realize that they're all tied together, it's gonna make that journey so much more fulfilling and so much more long lasting. If you see the parallels between the physical, the mental, emotional and the spiritual. So all these stories that I've told that before, this tie into how I help people through, you know, a healthier transition, whether it's with weight loss or if it's a mindset shift that I, that people need.

John Dehlin [02:10:33] So really quickly, what is it you offer? You know, what's your website? Do you offer services? Do you have a channel? Do you have a platform? Do you have a podcast? What are the ways. YouTube, whatever. What are the ways people can learn about you? Your book? Yeah, just plug it all. Not. Not cool. We're not, we don't do sponsorships. I'm not even about promoting products per se. But if you have good to share in the world, how do people consume it?

Guest [02:10:58] Shirt too. Do you sell that?

Drew Manning [02:11:00] Oh, merch. I don't actually. I've had a lot of people ask about it, but just go to fit to fat2fit.com fit number two, fat number two fit.com and then Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tick Tock. I'm on Tik Tok.

John Dehlin [02:11:13] They can follow you on all those.

Drew Manning [02:11:14] They can follow me at Fit to Fat to Fit and then, then yeah, from there if you want to purchase something cool. But so there's a book, there's two books. Two books, Fit to Fat to Fit and Complete Keto is one of my books. And then, yeah, I have, like, online programs that people can join and be part of my private Facebook group and get access to me and my coaches. And I have a certification course that teaches trainers about empathy and how to use empathy as a fitness trainer, because that's what I'm trying to do is change the direction of the fitness industry.

John Dehlin [02:11:42] So.

Drew Manning [02:11:43] And you coach people for fitness, not one on one? I don't coach people one on one. I have. I have coaches that help me. Okay. But we do group coaching sometimes.

Guest [02:11:52] Okay.

Drew Manning [02:11:53] So, yeah. Yeah, we'll have to. We'll have to talk about some other things. We didn't talk about Ayahuasca. We'll have to talk about that.

John Dehlin [02:11:59] Oh, shoot.

Drew Manning [02:12:00] We'll come back on. We'll come back.

Guest [02:12:01] It'll just be like Mark's story where he.

Drew Manning [02:12:03] See if there's a demand. Do you guys want Drew to come back on 50%?

John Dehlin [02:12:08] No. It's. Right now. Is a yes. It's a yes. Yeah. Give some final. Give your final life philosophy just so people can know. Kind of.

Drew Manning [02:12:16] Here's the thing. I've lived a life of self hate, and I saw where that got me. And my hope is to teach people how to learn how to love themselves, despite their past, despite their mistakes, despite their weaknesses. If you can operate out of a place of self love, you can learn to love other people so much more. This world be such a better place to live if everyone truly loved themselves. And so learning how to love yourself and letting yourself know that you're worthy of that love is probably the most transformational thing that's ever gonna happen. So if you struggled with weight loss, if you struggled with porn addiction, you struggled with sin, you struggled with all kinds of things. If you learn to operate out a place of self love versus self hate, this life will be so much more fulfilling for you. And, you know, it takes time, just like transformation does and weight loss does. But I promise, if you can learn to develop that self love, this life will be a much better place for you and the next generation. Like, if you want this world to be a better place for your kids, you better learn how to love yourself now and have empathy for yourself. Because I promise you, if you don't, if you hold on to that hate, that resentment towards your parents, towards the church, towards other people, that kind of hate will get passed on and manifest itself in different forms that you aren't aware of yet. And it'll get passed on from generation to generation. And that's kind of what I'm. My hope is, is to help people break that cycle.

John Dehlin [02:13:31] Cool. Beautiful.

Drew Manning [02:13:33] Boom. Well, Drew in. There it is.

John Dehlin [02:13:36] What?

Drew Manning [02:13:36] What's that? We'll just end there, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:13:38] Drew, thank you so much for sharing. Thanks for your story. Thanks for being vulnerable. Thanks for coming on, and thanks for all you've done to help make the world a healthier and happier place. I'm. I'm inspired.

Drew Manning [02:13:49] Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Well, sorry, I have to go. I have an acupuncture appointment.

John Dehlin [02:13:55] No, it's okay. And Cara, thanks for joining us today.

Guest [02:13:58] Mean comments and poke you at those. Just kidding. There was none. Everyone was really. No, everyone was really supportive and felt.

Drew Manning [02:14:04] I was hoping for at least 10.

Guest [02:14:05] No, no. You'll be disappointed. Everyone was really, really connecting to your story in the comments as well, so. And so did I. I'm Kara.

John Dehlin [02:14:13] Thanks for helping. It's great to have you.

Guest [02:14:15] Yeah, thanks.

John Dehlin [02:14:15] Hope to have you back. And. Yeah. And thanks to Dre Nord.

Drew Manning [02:14:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:14:21] For recommending this shout out to Dre and. And Gay. How Heather Gay. And love you guys. And just thanks to all our supporters that make Mormon stories possible. Please go to MormonStories.org and donate. If you don't yet become a monthly donor to keep this alive, that would be great. Share this everywhere on the social media. Stay in touch. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com we appreciate the support. Be good to each other. Love each other. Stay tuned for more episodes of Mormon Stories podcast in the weeks, months and years ahead. Thanks, everybody. Love you guys. Take care.

Part Two: Life After Mormonism and Healthy Divorce

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1432

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 17, 2021, and today we are super excited to have back in our studio for part two, Drew Manning. Hey, Drew.

Drew Manning [00:00:13] Hey, John. Thanks for having me back.

John Dehlin [00:00:14] Thanks for coming back.

Drew Manning [00:00:15] My pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] So for those who haven't checked out part one yet, go check it out. If you did, then you know that Drew Manning is best known across the world as the founder of Fit2Fat2Fit. It's an exercise social media platform, website. There's a podcast, podcasts, there's all sorts of sorts of cool stuff. But we spent several hours with Drew a few days ago just talking about his Mormon story, his Mormon journey. Super powerful, really vulnerable. But we didn't get enough from Drew. And how could you get enough from Drew? And so we have him back to talk a little bit more. In the previous episode, we talked about his Mormon story, his Mormon journey, a lot of the shame that he experienced as a youth growing up in a very large family. We talked about his mission, his being, becoming a faithful Mormon, serving a mission, getting married in the temple, and his Mormon marriage. And we also talked about the shame that he experienced as a Mormon boy and a Mormon youth sort of bled into his marriage. And a lot of one of the most powerful things for me in the story was just hearing about how shame around pornography and masturbation affected him. And his marriage ended up doing a lot of the typical, you know, 12 step addiction recovery stuff. But long story short, this whole shame stuff was a contributing factor to the end of his marriage. He also talked a lot about his faith crisis. And the way that we ended last episode was sort of with his faith crisis, him and his. His ex wife leaving the church and the marriage ending. And we have so much that we wanted to cover, including him rebuilding a life of healing and growth and positivity and connection. We'll talk a little about a little bit about his experimentation with psychedelics and ayahuasca, how that was formative on his journ journey. And we also want to talk about fit to fat to fit. So there's a lot we want to talk about. Drew, what, what would you want to correct or add or change to that introduction?

Drew Manning [00:02:15] That's a good question. Thanks for allowing me too. I think I, you know, I covered a lot. I think most of the details that I wanted to get across. I think a couple things that I probably skipped over were one, you know, Lynn and I, even though we went through this horrible divorce and it was so hard for her, so hard for me. We've both come to this place of healing where she's done the work and I've done the work. And so we're in this place now where we co parent really well. If you follow me on social media, you'll see us at Christmas together, Halloween together, Easter, you know, I'm friends with her, her fiance as well. And so it's, it's a modern family kind of setup where it works for us. Because, you know, me reading books like Ego is the Enemy, which I highly, highly recommend to anyone that's going through a divorce because you see how much suffering is caused by your ego. And for me, that really helped me discern when my ego's kind of in play in certain situations. And I can check myself and say, okay, is this really my highest self, what I want to do? Or is this my ego trying to tell me, you know, what you deserve or what you should do and how to treat other people? So for me, you know, yeah, I'm super grateful to be friends with my ex wife because I think in divorce situations, the kids are the ones that end up suffering be at the expense of the parents ego. Right. And so talk a bit about that,

John Dehlin [00:03:34] how to have a healthy divorce.

Drew Manning [00:03:36] Yeah. Oh, man, that's a good question. Because I'm, like I said, I'm super grateful that Lynn was willing to do the work. This doesn't apply to everyone because if you could be the most willing person to fix yourself and heal yourself, but if your ex spouse isn't willing to put in the work, it makes it, you know, you know, so much harder to deal with their wounds and they're hurt. And when people are hurt, they hurt other people. So hurt people hurt people. Right. And so when someone's hurt and they're trying to hurt you, it's hard not to take it personally. And so I've had to really learn in that situation with me and my ex wife and her too, where when you're hurt and you're lashing out at someone to hurt them, you learn not to take it personally. You, you learn to take a step back and not let your ego get in the way.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Yeah.

Drew Manning [00:04:23] And that's, you know, years and years of practicing that with her. There's been ups and downs, disagreed on some things, but like, it would break my heart if I couldn't spend Christmas morning with my girls because I don't get along with their mom.

John Dehlin [00:04:36] Yeah.

Drew Manning [00:04:37] You know, and that would break their heart too, probably. So.

John Dehlin [00:04:40] All right, so we'll talk about all that today.

Drew Manning [00:04:41] Yeah. All right.

John Dehlin [00:04:42] And we're super happy to have back with us in studio. Cara. Hey, Nuance Ho. Welcome back, Kara.

Guest 2 [00:04:51] Thanks. I'm really excited to be here. I loved Drew's interview last time, and we didn't get into enough stuff, so I'm just happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:04:59] And you're producing.

Guest 2 [00:05:00] I'm producing. I got my hands on all these buttons. I've got, like, post it notes of all the I need to do, so it's going to be all professional. Sorry for swearing.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] Oh, we're glad to have you.

Drew Manning [00:05:10] Yeah, we expect you to.

Guest 2 [00:05:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] Okay. So. So last we left off, your marriage was kind of about to end and you were losing and you'd lost your faith.

Drew Manning [00:05:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:23] So let's maybe let's pick it up from there. Did you. Did you kind of leave the church first, at least in your mind, or did your marriage end first? Which happened first?

Drew Manning [00:05:33] I knew the marriage was ending. So here's where we were. We actually moved to Hawaii in 2015 to the big island of Hawaii, which is where my family's from, on my dad's side. So me, my ex wife, we hadn't been divorced officially yet, but we knew it was over. We moved ourselves and our two girls to Hawaii to, as a divorced family to go through our transition out there. Everyone from Utah knows the culture of Utah, and when everyone's up in your business, it can be a lot. And for me, doing the fit to fit to fit thing, people knew who I was, they knew who Lynn was. It was so much better and healing for us to go to a place like Hawaii where people didn't really know who we were. They didn't, you know, know what fit to fat to fit was. And it was just an escape almost to be able to heal without people being up in your business.

John Dehlin [00:06:19] How much of that was just divorce and how much of that was the Mormon aspect of leaving your faith? Because Margi and I had to leave Logan after I lost my faith and got excommunicated. We stayed a couple years, but it was really toxic. And I know a lot of couples that one of the ways they deal with having a Mormon faith crisis, especially if they're in Utah, is they need to move. And I don't. I don't recommend that for everyone. But your move to Hawaii, how much was.

Drew Manning [00:06:44] Yeah, I think it was a little bit of a combination of both. Both the. The divorce and the culture of people just being up in your business. And I just. Yeah, there was a lot of shame and guilt. Like, I had the opportunity to go to a different state and go attend church there, because we still attended church in Hawaii for the first little bit. We still attended church for the. A little bit. But, you know, like I said on the last episode, when I Learned of the 2015 policy that had happened, where it was leaked, at that moment, I knew that things were. Were being made up. Like, these are men doing the best they can with the. The knowledge that they have and their experiences. And that's all they are. Just men that, you know, sometimes make mistakes. And this was a mistake. And I think everyone knew it, but was hard to admit it to ourselves. And for me, after reading the Mormon essays and the CES letter, I was like, okay, I see that these prophets in the past have made mistakes. And then that policy happened. I'm like, this is a perfect example of. I know looking back on, like, you know, Brigham Young, it's easy to be like, oh, he made a mistake, and he's a product of his time. I know 50 years from now, we're gonna look back at that 2015 policy and be like, yeah, that was a mistake. Right? I think everyone's gonna admit that. And so that was a moment for me to kind of say, no, I get to choose and pick what I feel is true. And I feel like, this isn't true, and this is wrong and this isn't right. This isn't. You know, I'm not just gonna blindly follow this. And so we were in Hawaii at the time. You know, we went to church maybe, you know, once a week sometimes as a family, because we live together. And slowly we just stopped going. It wasn't like all of a sudden, like, I'm done. It was like, you know what? I'm going to go hike out in nature. I'm going to go to the beach. I'm going to go meditate, I'm going to go journal. And I feel way more connected to God in those situations than I do, you know, going to church. And so for me, that's kind of how I was able to eventually find peace with, you know, after leaving your religion, it can be scary. You lose a part of your identity. You. For me, I lost my identity and my divorce and my religion around the same time because we knew we were getting divorced by the time. Even when we. Before we moved out to Hawaii, we knew it was going to happen eventually. We lived together for about six months out there, and then she transitioned into her house, and then I stayed in my apartment where I was at and so we split time with the girls. But up until that point, we were living together as a, as a family.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] One of the, one of the things that kind of people who are losing their faith in the church have to decide is do I actually leave the church or do I just either just go inactive or semi active, where I just keep up appearances, go when I feel like it, even raise the kids as a non believer. There is a path of staying in the church as a non believer or as a semi believer just because it's your cultural heritage, just because you're afraid. Can I raise healthy, moral kids without the church? Did you guys toy with that option of either staying in as semi or non believers and. Or just having to be a cultural thing, not necessarily a literal believing thing?

Drew Manning [00:09:57] Yeah, I think, you know, that's why we tried that. I think for a little bit. When we moved to the Tongan branch that I mentioned here in Utah, we went to a different branch and we both got callings and, you know, we were okay with that. But then when we transitioned to Hawaii out there, it was, okay, let's go to church as semi believers or, you know, it's a good thing to go with family because my brother lived out there and so we would go to church with him and his family and bring our girls and we try to make it work like semi believing, you know, in, okay, what, what good things are happening here. Maybe if I just look for the good things and anywhere you go, any church you go to, you're going to find good things, right? So I was like, okay, I'll come, I'll listen for the good things. The things I don't agree with, I'll just stay quiet about. And I won't, you know, I just won't rock the boat for anyone and say, actually I disagree with that, or actually, you know, I've learned this and I think we're, you know, kind of lying to ourselves, you know, in a sense. So we try to make it work. But eventually I just found myself, I needed to discover who I was without the church. And to do that, I had to leave the church. Because in the church you're told who to be, you're told how to think, you're told how to behave outside the church. I was like, I've done that my whole life. Now I need to figure out who I really am without being told, you know, who I am. And so leaving the church and going to, like I said, going out in nature, journaling, meditating, was. Were tools that I used to Help discover who I was without that. And it was so freeing once I did that, once I left the. The. The church and. And tried these new methods that, you know, I wasn't used to. They were super powerful for me. So meditation, positive affirmations, gratitude lists, and journaling and getting out in nature were five methods that I used to really discover who I was. Also listening to books and podcasts was a huge help in finding this. This new version of myself.

Tools for Rebuilding Identity Outside the Church

John Dehlin [00:11:54] Okay, you just gave a list of five things.

Drew Manning [00:11:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] Or were each of those really fundamental?

Drew Manning [00:11:59] 100. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:12:00] Will you talk about each one?

Drew Manning [00:12:01] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:12:02] Individually.

Drew Manning [00:12:02] Yeah. So meditation. I'll start there.

John Dehlin [00:12:04] Okay. Meditation.

Drew Manning [00:12:06] I grew up in. In the United States. I didn't know anyone that meditated growing up, unless you were a monk or, I don't know, something like that.

John Dehlin [00:12:15] So Mormons don't really meditate?

Drew Manning [00:12:16] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:12:17] Not explicitly, yeah.

Drew Manning [00:12:18] Because it's not practiced or taught in our religion. Right. Or in the culture of the church. But learning it from people. I listen to a lot of Tim Ferriss podcasts. I listen to Joe Rogan sometimes, and these guys are talking about meditation. And same thing with Tony Robbins as a tool. It was more of, like, a scientific perspective on meditation. So I'm like, okay, maybe there's something to it. So I downloaded some free apps. I put my headphones in.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] So there's headspace. Calm. Calm.

Drew Manning [00:12:44] Were the two I started with.

John Dehlin [00:12:45] Mark uses calm.

Drew Manning [00:12:46] Yeah. Insight Timer is a really good one, too.

John Dehlin [00:12:48] Inside Timer.

Drew Manning [00:12:49] Because I don't know how to meditate.

John Dehlin [00:12:50] Right.

Drew Manning [00:12:51] I just thought you sit there and just. All right, don't think about anything, you know, for 10 minutes. Like, that's. That's. That's torture, right?

John Dehlin [00:12:56] Yeah.

Drew Manning [00:12:57] But learning how to do it and being present in the moment helps you to detach yourself from your thoughts. So and for me, meditation, what it does, it helps me become the observer of my thoughts. And that's your true identity. You are the observer of your thoughts. The problems that we attach ourselves to our thoughts because that's human nature. And we react to those thoughts, we react to those emotions, those triggers that happen in life. Meditation helps you take a step back and just observe how you normally would react and say, okay, is this serving my highest self if I just react this way, or should I thoughtfully respond to this situation and think about a little bit more before reacting? And so meditation was huge in helping me be present in the moment, truly be present with me, my girls. And that really helped to discover who I was. And so meditation is huge. I actually use that in my health and fitness training with clients, I have them practice meditation because it does translate over into other areas of your life, like physical fitness. And it has huge benefits for that. So it's not just the spiritual benefits. There's physical, mental, and emotional benefits by meditating. The next thing is positive affirmations. Now, every time I bring up positive affirmations, I always think of Stuart Smalley from Saturday Night Live. Or he's super cheesy, and he's like, I'm good enough. I'm smart enough, and doggone at people like me. Right? Everyone that knows Saturday Night Live knows that clip. So I had a hard time getting into it because I'm like, this sounds so weird. Like, I'm talking out loud. I'm saying words like I love you to myself, like, out loud. And it's very weird at first, but it's super powerful because I never heard those words spoken to me until that point. I think a lot of people out there might be able to relate to that. If. If no one's ever told you that you're worthy of love or that you're lovable, why not tell yourself that? And so for me, positive affirmations. Yeah, it's kind of corny saying these words out loud to yourself, about yourself. But it was super powerful to say, you know, to myself, like, I love you. You are worthy. You're a good man. You're a good father. You're. You're all these things that I never really heard growing up. And so that was the first time that I heard those words spoken to myself about myself, and that's why they were so powerful. And we all know that there's words are words effect is at the cellular level. You know, you've seen those studies with rice and living plants where they speak kind words or mean words, and they show the difference after, like, 30 or 60 days. Imagine what that does to us, you know, as humans. And so positive affirmations is something that I have my clients and my followers do as well, because there needs to be some kind of belief that you are worthy of. Of maybe a happier, more fulfilled life. So positive affirmations.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] So when would you do that to. How? Like, would you just in the morning do it before?

Drew Manning [00:15:43] Yeah. So I do meditation and then say three to five things about myself to myself that I'm maybe having a tough time believing, you know, or something.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] What are some. With what are some examples?

Drew Manning [00:15:55] Yeah, I've said some of them. Like, I. I am worthy of love. I'm proud of who I Am. I love myself. I love my body. I am.

John Dehlin [00:16:05] You're like looking in the mirror saying,

Drew Manning [00:16:06] yeah, looking in the mirror to yourself. And that's. It's powerful. And so I recommend people do it for a minimum of 30 days, every single day, right after your meditation. Go straight into that. Whether you believe those words or not doesn't matter. There's power in saying those words out loud to yourself. Okay, so that was huge for me to start to believe in myself that I was worthy of love. Because I remember my. In my last episode, I talked about hating myself. I wasn't worthy of anything. And. And my method of improving was through self hate discipline, like most guys try and do. The next thing was a gratitude list. And this is three to five things similar to positive affirmations, but three to five things you're grateful for. And that helps to rewire your brain to actually look for things in your life that are positive. Even though you feel like your life sucks, if you're going through a divorce, a bankruptcy, whatever, an excommunication, anything like that, I promise you, you will still be able to find something to be grateful for.

John Dehlin [00:17:02] So how often are you doing this?

Drew Manning [00:17:04] Every morning.

John Dehlin [00:17:04] Every morning you're listing three to five things you're grateful for?

Drew Manning [00:17:07] Yes. Okay. Meditation, positive affirmations. Go make myself some coffee because I drink coffee now.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] And was that scary to start drinking coffee?

Drew Manning [00:17:14] No, it was cool. I was excited. I was like, man, finally I can buy like, similar to like alcohol. I'm like, I don't know what to order, you know, just coffee. And you know, I don't drink sugar, so I don't add sugar to mine. But now I, Yeah, I. Coffee's my morning ritual.

John Dehlin [00:17:30] Okay.

Drew Manning [00:17:31] And I love it. So I'll sip on coffee while I do my journaling. You know, my, my gratitude list. Three to five things. And if you could do that every single day, you start to realize, man, I have so many things to be grateful for. And then you start to look for things throughout the day to be grateful for. And like I said, it helps to rewire your, your, your neural pathways in your brain so that you actually are more fulfilled and not in receiving things in life, not getting to this goal, but in the pursuit of it in the process of becoming this new version of yourself. You can be fulfilled now while you're working on that better version of yourself. So that's another thing I have my clients and followers do, you know, as a daily gratitude list. And then what was the last thing? Oh, getting out in nature, you know, I don't care if you live in New York City or downtown Salt Lake, getting out in the sun, taking your shoes off and standing in some grass, or going to a beach, like where I was in Hawaii. It's. It's very healing. And I think humans, we've been detached from Mother Nature, you know, ever since we've become more and more civilized, people very rarely leave their home unless it's in a car, you know, So I think as humans, there's something about being out in nature that there's an energy that you. You can be in tune with when you're out there and just be present. Right. So going on a hike in the mountains or being at the beach or just getting out, getting some sun, some vitamin D, not only from a health perspective is that healthy, but the therapeutic benefits you get from being out in nature as well. So these kinds of things, I think are really, really helpful in anyone going through, whether you're going through a faith transition or any kind of transition in life. I feel like getting out in nature at some point in time is going to be huge as far as benefits that'll bring into your life.

John Dehlin [00:19:14] Love it.

Drew Manning [00:19:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:15] So did you say there were five things? Because I think we got four. We got meditation, positive affirmations, gratitude list, and getting out in podcasts, and.

Drew Manning [00:19:25] Oh, yeah, podcast.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] Was that the fifth? Or was there a different one?

Guest 2 [00:19:29] Not to be like, Mormon stories or, like. Yeah, do you want to talk about us or anything?

John Dehlin [00:19:34] No.

Drew Manning [00:19:35] Damn, man, I wish we could go back and roll that clip. What was the fifth one?

Guest 2 [00:19:39] You said podcast was one of them, but.

Drew Manning [00:19:40] Okay, then podcast and audio book education. Yeah, education. Like listening to other people's perspectives. If you only listen, or if you only listen to your church leaders and read the Book of Mormon and the church magazines, that's all you're going to know. Like, that's. That's your bubble you live in. But if you read Berne Brown, if you read Ryan Holiday and some amazing books that I've read over the years, like Don Miguel Ruiz, his books are amazing. The fourth agreement, the fifth agreement, these kind of books that exist that in the Mormon world, we don't really explore outside of, you know, the books that we're given because we're told all the answers are in this one book. Right. And I feel like, finally I was. My eyes were open to this other world that existed where all these things were so much more helpful for me because they applied to my situation so much more than, you know, you don't hear about faith Transition or divorce in the Bible or the Book of Mormon. Right. And how to navigate that through a psychological perspective. But these books really do. And that's why when I went to my life coach, Katherine Dixon, her methods of using Byron Katie's, the work that was so helpful for me because I never experienced that before. And that's why that, that experience with her, that three hour first session, was the first time I learned to love myself. And I actually saw a light at the end of this tunnel that I was stuck in because these methods that she used, I never would have been open to it because it's like, oh, that's. She's not from the church. And, you know, I don't think that will really help me. And now that I've broken free from that, kind of got out of the matrix, if you will, now I'm open to these other things and I'm like, man, where was this my whole life? I could have used this so much in my past. But luckily, fortunately, I did. So podcasts and books are great to help change your perspective of your situation. Right? If you could shift your perception of your situation, that's how you'll find true happiness. Not necessarily changing your situation, but shifting your perception of your situation. And then I started to look myself not as a failure anymore. I didn't define myself by my past, and I owned my story. And now I could show up as this authentic version of me and not be afraid with what other people think. Like, if I'm gonna drink coffee, I'm not gonna hide it from my family. If I'm gonna drink alcohol, I'm not gonna hide it from people who I used to be afraid of them and what they thought about me. Now it's like, look, I. I am. I know who I am. I love myself. I'm proud of who I am. And these things don't define me. If I drink coffee, if I drink tea, if I drink alcohol, you know, if I don't go to church on Sunday, I'm not defined by those things. I think breaking free from that was really hard for me because in the church, there's so much guilt and shame around. If you do this, you're going to feel bad. And like I said, getting out of the matrix, you realize, man, I have the power to break free from that and, and finally have a good relationship with myself. And I think, honestly, that's what God wants for all of us. So that's why I don't feel like God wants everyone in the Mormon Church, because I feel like There's a lot of. Yeah, there's a lot of happy people in the Mormon Church, but there's also a lot of miserable, miserable people in the Mormon Church, too, and outside the church as well. Both. Both of those exist. And so for me, I feel like, you know, if there is a God, he would want us to love ourselves. And if you don't love yourself in a certain, you know, context or a certain, you know, being a part of a certain church, maybe that's not the healthiest thing for you. You know, even though you've been told to stay here and that's where you'll find happiness. I feel like we're all on different paths, and there's so many. Everyone's path is so unique and different, and I think we should celebrate that instead of say, no, you're supposed to be on this path.

John Dehlin [00:23:18] Yeah, every one of those items, being in nature, meditating, mindfulness, just all of those things. I don't do the self affirmations, but I can see now. I benefit from it. But I just want to say that the. The idea of books and podcasts. We're raised as Mormons to think that. That the wisdom comes from the scriptures and prophet seers and revelators. And when you start to lose your faith, immediately you think, well, I'm going to lose the scriptures. I'm going to lose these prophets and revelators. And it feels like a loss. But immediately you could. You realize, oh, my gosh, this isn't a loss. This is a huge expansion. Your prophets can become Brene Brown. They can become. Who's the cheetah author that's really popular right now?

Drew Manning [00:23:59] Oh, yeah, Glennon Doyle. She's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:24:04] Maya Angelou, Eckhart Tolle. Like, there are so many prophets of wisdom and truth, but actually real Sam Harris, whoever it is, there's so many people out there that have wisdom, expertise, you know, marriage advice, you know, there's so many sources of wisdom, and books and podcasts can. It's like brain food. It's like soul food. And you don't trust, Trade down by losing, you know, the quorum of the 5th 12 and the First Presidency, a bunch of, honestly, with respect, white dudes from Idaho and Utah that have been saying the same thing for decades and decades and decades, not necessarily adding a lot of wisdom. All of a sudden, you trade up to these amazing people who've lived amazing, inspiring lives. I just have to echo that and say that that is a huge benefit to going through a faith crisis.

Drew Manning [00:24:56] Yes. Amen. I agree with that 100%. Thanks for letting me.

Guest 2 [00:24:59] And most of free, too. You don't have to pay a tithe to that. I mean, most of life is like, looking for the fountain of youth, looking for, like, the secret sauce of what makes a happy, fulfilling life. And it's difficult when you're in the church and you're like, I must be the one that's doing something wrong, because the answers that I'm told is supposed to be so fulfilling. I'm still left empty. I'm still left hungry. And you feel a little. I don't know if you felt guilty as well, like, going through that transition, wondering if it's okay to start looking for an authority outside of these. These men and leaders. I had to deconstruct that as well early on. That you're like, maybe they don't have all the answers. Maybe there is a good trade up to this other further light and knowledge.

John Dehlin [00:25:43] And, Carrie, I think you brought up the most difficult and important part of a faith crisis, which is changing the locus of authority and control from some external source to you feeling comfortable making your own decisions and being your own moral authority. Did you have to. Did you have to do that?

Drew Manning [00:26:01] Yeah, 100%. Because I totally, 100% trusted the leaders of the church. The. My church leaders and my bishops and stake presidents, as these guys hold the keys and therefore they are the ones I need to be listening to. And then to get into this world of like, hey, I can think for myself and, hey, I can find my way out of this, and I have the power to do that. I have the power to be happy without someone telling me, hey, you're. You're guilty and you. You're sinful and you're dirty.

John Dehlin [00:26:26] It's.

Drew Manning [00:26:26] It's breaking free from that did take some time, but once you. I think once you really discover who you really are outside of the church and you have that authentic relationship finally with yourself, I feel it's so much easier to transition towards, like, hey, I'm gonna listen to this book and this podcast, and I don't care what anyone says, or, I'm gonna drink this coffee, and I don't care what anyone thinks. Letting go of that, of what other people think about you is so hard to break free from, but it's so freeing. I think a lot of people are just stuck there because we worry about what our parents are gonna think or church leaders or friends, and we do things for them. And then you lose yourself in that. I think so many people are stuck in that place. Where they're doing things for other people instead of doing things for themselves. And they look at that as maybe being selfish or. Or whatever, but we know that that's not selfish. Loving yourself is not selfish, you know, And I think that's a huge lesson that I learned during that. That transition. And like I said, it took. It took a while to get there. But I'm so grateful for these things outside of this Mormon bubble that I grew up in that were able to help me navigate this life to find happiness and fulfillment. Because I think a lot of people, whether they're in the church or not, when they're. When you're a part of a certain religion, you feel like, oh, everyone else is miserable. Only us. We're. We're the happy ones. Right. Because we have the truth. And everyone else must be sad and lonely. And then you realize you've been lied to about that. You're like, man, actually, I'm so much happier now without the confines of this, you know, religion that tells me what to do and what to think. And I know that I can't convince people of that, but I know for myself that I'm happier, like, 100% happier to be outside, even though I was told my whole life, oh, if you go down that path, it'll lead to misery.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] And so you're taught wickedness. You know, there is nothing more wicked than leaving the truth.

Drew Manning [00:28:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:09] And you're taught wickedness never was happiness.

Drew Manning [00:28:11] Yes. It's so true.

John Dehlin [00:28:12] That's. But that's not what you experience.

Drew Manning [00:28:14] You're saying you upgraded your happiness 100% to get out of the. The guilt and the shame cycle is probably one of the most freeing experiences I've ever had. And to not feel guilt and shame constantly, every single day for what I do or what I don't do or what I drink or what I don't drink. I mean, that's how I feel. Like God wants us to live this life. Like, if there is a God, he wants us to. Like, he would want us to live it this way. Right where we are happy and because that's what we want for our kids. Right. You want your kids to be truly happy. Right. No matter. No matter what they do. And, yeah, you could. You might say, I know better, and this is the. That true happiness for you. But we all know what happens if you try and force that on your kids and saying, hey, this is the. The way to happiness is my way. But they're a different individual. They're different human. They're going to have different beliefs and different experiences. And you could either love them through that, or you can try and, you know, keep them in this bubble where you think they'll be safer, you know?

John Dehlin [00:29:15] Do you feel like you've become a better parent?

Drew Manning [00:29:18] I think so, yeah. That's a good question. I haven't really thought about that. I feel like I am because, one, I know how to be present with my girls. And when I. When I'm present with my girls, they know that I'm there for them. They know that I'm listening versus, you know, I mean, like I said, nothing against my parents. I just feel like with 11 kids, it's impossible to give your kids attention and to be truly present with them, because my mom was having to fix it. Three meals a day for 11 kids. And, you know, my dad. My dad worked all day, and you could just imagine the chaos. But I feel like I'm 100% a better parent because I know how to empathize with my girls and listen to them and be present with them. These kinds of tools that I learned outside of Mormonism, I never would have learned in Mormonism. So, yes, I'm. I'm a better parent. And I'm sure my ex wife, she was on here, she'd probably agree with that too, so.

Guest 2 [00:30:08] But Heavenly Father is kind of always taught to you like, he's the model that you're supposed to. He's. He's our father. We want to model our parenting after the way that he is taught. You know what I'm talking about? Sorry, I'm not explaining myself. Yeah, that. That. The way that he is our father. We want to model our. Our parenting after the way the Heavenly Father parents us, I guess. And it's not until you deconstruct the religion that you're like, I could do better. I think I have some better ideas about how I want to interact with my kids.

Drew Manning [00:30:35] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:30:36] Yeah. And that's. There's lots of better parenting advice outside of than just the Mormon construct.

Drew Manning [00:30:43] Yeah, 100%.

Identity, Morality, and Shame After Leaving the Faith

John Dehlin [00:30:44] So, okay, let's do a quick firing round of just some other questions. So if you're not Mormon, let's talk about identity for a second.

Drew Manning [00:30:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:54] And this is just one minute. Who are you if you're not Mormon?

Drew Manning [00:30:57] That's a good question. Well, I know who I am. I am me. I'm Drew. I'm this man, the father, and someone that loves himself and is proud of who I've. I. Who I am and who I become. And, you know, but I will say this. I Think we are a collection of all of our past experiences. So growing up in the church, growing up in the family I grew up in, there's little things, experiences that are still. Have still shaped me into who I am today. So I can't say that I am who I am today without mentioning that I grew up Mormon, because that probably part of you, yeah. Changed, you know, the way I viewed the world in a certain sense. And. And, you know, for example, like, let me think if this is a good example or not. I feel like because I had certain experiences that were bad, now I want to have the opposite experiences of that because I've had those bad experiences. But had I not had those bad experiences first, I probably wouldn't be, you know, as adamant about discovering this, the opposite side of that, where, like, oh, like, I want this definitely because I didn't have this. Right? So because I didn't have this, that kind of led me down this path of wanting the opposite of that. Does that make sense? So had I not had those experiences, I probably wouldn't be who I. Who I was today. So Mormonism did have a role in helping shape who I am today. But because I went through that and saw the bad things, now I'm like, okay, I don't want that. I don't want the guilt and shame all the time. I want this. This freedom, this authentic. This authentic life. But because I didn't have that before, maybe I desire it more because I went through that experience. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:32:37] Yeah, sure.

Drew Manning [00:32:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] Okay, next question. I'll just do a firing round. I think Kara's got a question. Morality. So there's this idea that if you don't have the Mormon Church telling you what to do, then you'll become an alcoholic, you'll become a drug addict, you'll become lurid, licentious and vile. You'll sleep around in ways that are harmful to your. You'll get people pregnant. If you're a guy, you'll get all sorts of STIs. You know, you'll cheat on your spouse or, you know, you'll become a philanderer. You won't be honest. Why would you be honest? In fact, why wouldn't you even kill people? Because you don't have any. I mean, there are people, especially once they start wondering if they still believe in God or Jesus. The believers, you know, believers will say, well, then why would you do anything good at all in your life? You're just going to descend into debauchery. How have you reconstructed a moral Center?

Drew Manning [00:33:31] Yeah, that's really.

John Dehlin [00:33:32] Or have you?

Drew Manning [00:33:33] Yeah, no, I feel like I have. That's a really good question. And I think that's why it's so important to discover who you are outside of the church, outside of the religion, because you've been told who to be your whole life. And yes, you have to credit religion for putting those structures in place so that humans don't just kill each other all the time. But to say that every human is going to be bad without religion is a pretty ridiculous assumption, first of all. And it's also a scare tactic or fear based belief to get people to obey. Like, if you do this, if you leave this, you're gonna, you know, like the, the sheep. If you're gonna leave the herd, you're gonna get eaten, but eaten by the wolves. So stay here where it's safe, where the shepherd can protect you. Right. I totally get that. And for kids, the whole Santa Claus thing, it works, right? Be good, you'll get presents. Be bad, there's consequences. So we're domesticated from a very young age to believe in that. And religion is like the next big thing. Where we go from belief in Santa Claus being good or being bad and punishment and getting present to the next big thing is eternal salvation or eternal damnation. And that's hung over your head your entire life. I think escaping that thought process or that belief system is hard and scary. And that's why people are scared to do it, because they think, oh, if I leave the church, I'll get in a car accident, I'll die, or I'll just start drinking and I'll do all these bad things because that's what they've been fed their entire life. And the only way to break free from that is to go and experience it firsthand and be like, am I a good person without the church? Am I gonna just start killing people randomly? Like, maybe you should figure out who you are. Like, are you a good person without that? And for me, what, what has happened for me is, and this is why I love, you know, not being part of a religion anymore is because now I choose to do good because it feels good. Like to be a good human feels fulfilling to me, right? Doing things that are bad, you know, depending on what your version of bad is, I don't feel like doing because it doesn't bring me fulfillment. Right? Drinking coffee, I don't look at as a bad thing at all. Drinking alcohol I don't look at as a bad thing at all. Doing plant medicine, I don't look at as a bad thing at all. We've been taught those things are bad and that if we do them, we're going to feel guilty. But I know a lot of happy people that do those things. Why aren't they killing people? Why aren't they just miserable? Why aren't they just, you know, sleeping around? You know, I feel like this, this idea, this belief system that you mentioned is, is a way to control a population, to, you know, follow certain, you know, rules. And that's why you look back at the history of religion and how strict religions were. Like if you spoke out against the church in certain situations, you would get killed. Right. You'd be punished. You would be, they would try and silence you. Right. And now we're in this place where I feel like hopefully people see people outside of the church as, oh, maybe you can't be happy outside the church, maybe you aren't going to become a rapist and a murderer and all these things that I've been taught. And that's why you have to learn how to know who you are, discover who you are outside the church and then also develop some self love. And I feel like if you truly love yourself, you're going to love other people, but if you hate yourself, you're going to hate other people. Everything is a mirror of how we see ourselves.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] I love that.

Drew Manning [00:36:52] So if you see yourself and you judge yourself as, as this bad person, you're going to see everyone else in that same light. But if you love who you are, you're empathetic towards you. It's easier to love and be empathetic towards other people. And so that's, that's what needs to be fixed is your relationship with yourself.

John Dehlin [00:37:09] It sounds like you're saying if you really love yourself, you'll treat people kind. Yes, with kindness and love. Because it'll be reflected in.

Drew Manning [00:37:19] Yeah. And, and I learned that from Dom Miguel Ruiz, his book the Four Agreements. What's the Mastery of Love? Is another good one as well. These lessons are, are from books that I read outside of the church. And that's makes so much sense to me because back when I was Mormon and I hated myself, I was judgmental towards other people. I would hate other people that didn't even know why because I hated myself. And so if you understand that you can go through this life and if you can learn to love yourself and realize that you're lovable, you're going to treat other people with love too. And that's how you fix, that's how you fix the human race.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] In my opinion, you become more kind after leaving the church.

Drew Manning [00:37:57] You feel it more empathetic, more kind, less judgmental, more loving, more caring.

John Dehlin [00:38:02] I love it.

Guest 2 [00:38:04] So last time we talked a lot about the shame cycle that you were stuck in for so long. And I'm assuming that, you know, when you messed up, you went to God and went to your bishop to be in this constant, like, put a gumball in, you get. Or put a quarter in and you get a gumball out. Kind of like circular, like, I did something bad. Here's where I get the feel good back from the thing that I did wrong. So when you lose the structure of the church, and I'm assuming, did you still have a belief in God after you and like that you could still find repentance through a God as well?

Drew Manning [00:38:39] That's a good question. I wasn't sure. I don't, I don't. I didn't know because I felt like, okay, if the church isn't true and the Book of Mormon's not true and Joseph Smith isn't the true prophet, then who's to say that God isn't just made up by men as well? So I didn't know. I didn't. I didn't say whether or not I believed in God or didn't believe in God.

John Dehlin [00:38:59] Super common to question everything. Yeah.

Drew Manning [00:39:01] Because I'm like, okay, well, what is true? These scriptures, Bible, the Book of Mormon were written, you know, centuries ago. How do we know that it was written, you know, the way it is to us back then? You know, there's so many things to make it difficult to 100 believe. But sorry, that's not your question.

Guest 2 [00:39:19] So I was just trying to explain. Like, I think I'm new to this interviewing thing, so I'm going to kind of explain it. What was one of the most devastating things to me is I didn't know what to do with the guilt that I felt that I would normally be pouring my heart out to God. And then I could feel repentance. I could feel cleansed of my sin through prayer and I can go about my day again. So with somebody like you that struggled with so much shame and guilt from your past when you didn't have that structure anymore, what did you do with that guilt? Like, I. I felt completely lost. So I don't know if that's like something that maybe you went through.

Drew Manning [00:39:50] No, that's a good question. I think it goes back to when I met with my life coach, Katherine Dixon. She helped me develop self love despite my past, despite all those things that I'd done in the past, I think separating yourself from actions in the past is the. One of the most healing things. The problem before that was I was attaching myself as those. Like, I was defined by those actions that I did. And I think that's where you. Once you develop self love, true self love, you realize that you're lovable no matter what you do, despite, like, the mistakes and the bad things that you've done in your past. And I feel like if you truly love yourself, you're gonna go out in this world wanting to do things that feel good to you, that feel make you happy and more fulfilled. So I didn't hold on to the guilt and shame. 1. I went through the repentance process. Remember, I did go through the addiction recovery program, was re. Fellowshiped back into the church at some point. So all the guilt that I felt before that with the affair and the pornography and stuff like that, masturbation. I feel like I went through the church's repentance process where that helped me believe, like, oh, okay, I'm cleansed of my sins in a sense. And then when I left the church, learning these new methods of how to look at myself through a new lens really helped me let go of any kind of guilt or shame I had about my past.

Guest 2 [00:41:08] Were there ever times where you were. You would do something where normally you'd say to yourself, oh, if I was Mormon, I would feel, you know, X, Y, and Z about this and then kind of sit with it and realize that there's things that you don't need to feel guilt and shame over and just like, completely bask in that self love and realize a complete shift of your mentality. So I think that's a huge thing that people struggle with, is needing a third party, needing a mediator, needing a God to cleanse them, and they're not confident enough to just love themselves and realize there's sins that. That don't need to have this horrible weight on them at all times.

Drew Manning [00:41:43] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think for me, that kind of happened as I went through this whole rebirth process, if you will. Rebirth Being reborn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In a sense, like, I really do feel like a totally new person. Like, the person 10 years ago is not who I am today at all. And I'm grateful for that. So love it.

Guest 2 [00:42:02] Yeah, love it. I need my own catchphrase, John.

Drew Manning [00:42:05] I know.

Spirituality Beyond Mormonism and Plant Medicine Experiences

John Dehlin [00:42:08] All right, so really quickly, spirituality. So spirituality for me was like hearing the hymns, hearing the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Hearing people bear their testimony, you know, you couldn't be spiritual outside of a Mormon context. Did you still feel a longing for spirituality? How, if so, did you find a source for spirituality, even a redefinition? Because so many people become allergic to that term. They think some sort of metaphysical thing. They think it has to be ghosts or something, you know, so it's like, oh, I don't want anything spiritual. And then I think this might be the place to talk about how psychedelics were influential to you, because psychedelics and spirituality sometimes are mentioned together. So talk about all that.

Drew Manning [00:42:51] Yeah, 100%. So I think for me, I found spirituality, which I did enjoy. Even if. Even if I felt it in the church, I did enjoy those moments. It was. Didn't happen every Sunday, of course, you know, sometimes you're just going through the motions of life, but transitioning out of the church, practicing meditation, positive affirmations, my gratitude list, my walks out in nature, those things became spiritual for me. Whereas before, when I was Mormon, I wouldn't include those in my spiritual, you know, category. But those things became spiritual for me because I truly believe that they were helping me. And I could feel something outside of my body that was influencing me in a. In a positive way down this path. And that's why to this day, I tell my family, even I don't know if they believe me or not, but I say I really do believe I was led down this path from God. I'm not being deceived by Satan. He's not, you know, tricking me and pulling me away. I'm becoming this better version of myself. And I think, you know, if God exists, that's what he, she would want, right? To become this better version of yourself. And so for me, I found spirituality in those other things outside of the church. And I truly felt that I would say 2018, 2017, I started to research. You know, I'm in the health and fitness industry. We learn a lot about, you know, health and diet, nutrition, the power of medicine and plants. And there was a couple books that I read that helped shift my perception because once again, my perception of any kind of illegal drug was, oh, you're going to go crazy, you're going to do bad things, you're going to start jumping off buildings. And, you know, there's all this propaganda around don't do drugs. And I get it, I get why people think that way.

John Dehlin [00:44:32] But opiate overdose, meth, you know.

Drew Manning [00:44:35] Yeah. And maybe you've seen it in movies or TV shows or experience on the streets where you see crazy people on drugs, and you're like, oh, that person's crazy. I'm never doing drugs. But once you look at, you know, the research, the science behind it, you realize, okay, maybe we. We haven't. We've been lied to about certain things. And this kind of ties into my research into the ketogenic diet. I'm a big proponent of keto. I have my own keto book. You know, I coach people on the ketogenic diet. Not. Not saying it's like the one and only diet for all humans, but it's a great tool. But we've been taught that fat is bad for us our whole life, right? Eat low fat. That's the way to go. We had the food pyramid, remember? And what did that do to society? We became even more obese from the 70s and 80s on when we started. Started introducing these low fat, you know, products in the grocery stores. Obesity just skyrocketed, right? So I was learning about keto and how we've been taught this lie about how fat is bad for us. I was like, okay, that's weird, because I remember as a kid telling like, hey, limit fat. Fat's bad. Because you think, oh, eating fat makes you fat. With psychedelics. It was very similar where I'm like, all right, we've been told not to do drugs. I get it. And then I read this book called stealing fire, which talks about achieving a flow state and how to achieve a flow state. And there are certain people in this world that can achieve a flow state. They talk about Navy t. Navy SEAL teams and how they're able to work as a unit and achieve this. This flow state that they can track and record. Some of, like, the best athletes in the world, they are in this flow state when they're on fire. You know, like when Steph Curry or LeBron James can't miss a shot. They're in this flow state that they can achieve, you know, by tapping into this. This ability to be in this flow state. And maybe there's times where you or I have experienced that, and there's. And in the book, he talks about different ways to achieve that flow state. And, you know, breath work is one of them that he talks about. But also plant medicine, right? He talks about different plant medicines and how they're able to achieve flow states using these plant medicines. Medicines in a safe way. Also the book how to change your mind, Michael Pollan. Yes. Really good book on learning about. Okay, maybe even him. You know, he had these perceptions of certain drugs that are bad. For you and why. But he questioned that and he's. I think what he's trying to say is maybe we should question that. And now you look at MDMA therapy and how that's on. Shoot. I always feel like, oh, right, right, right. Trials. Yeah. So they're doing trials with PTSD patients. And it's super powerful. Right. And, and, and it probably will be legalized at some point. Same thing with medical marijuana. It's being. And we were taught that marijuana, remember, was a gateway drug, and it's very bad. And now we're like, oh, well, actually, there's all these health benefits to it. Maybe we should research it a little bit more. So all I'm saying is, like, I became more open to the possibility of using a plant medicine. And I heard about ayahuasca. And ayahuasca is this plant medicine, usually from the Amazon area down south. And a lot of ancient cultures would use this for ceremonial purposes. And there was this company called Rythmia, and they're down in Costa Rica, and they invited me to come experience an ayahuasca. A week long ayahuasca.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] Let me. Can I back up?

Drew Manning [00:47:53] Sure, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:47:53] Okay. So let's just say you're. You're no longer. Well, by the way, there are a lot of orthodox Mormons that are now experimenting with psychedelics. So it's, you know, it's not necessarily a progressive or a post Mormon activity anymore.

Drew Manning [00:48:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:11] But let's just say you're trying to live your best life and your mind's open to new experiences. In your case, you left the church. Why were you even wanting some sort of foreign substance versus just, like, exercise, eat right, live happy. Was there something going on in your life where you were sad or you had anxiety or you were dealing with some sort of traumatic symptoms? Was there a core need that made you feel even an openness or a desire to. To experiment with something like. Like plant medicine?

Drew Manning [00:48:45] Yeah, that's a really good question. No, actually, when I did ayahuasca, I was in a really good place emotionally. I had done the work. I'd done lots of therapy and life coaching and lots of work on myself. And I felt like you don't need plant medicine to get there. You can do therapy and life coaching, like meditating, reading books, all those things. Those things can be beneficial. The research that I found on certain psychedelics was intriguing to me and it made me curious. Maybe there's. Yes, just curious. Maybe there's an experience that I haven't had yet in this life and maybe now have this opportunity to experience this, to, you know, take this to the next level, maybe. But I felt like, or I do feel like people can achieve, you know, healing without any kind of plant medicine. For sure. Even people that practice plant medicine will tell you that. And that's why when I went to Rhythmia in Costa Rica, they had four nights of ayahuasca, but they had three nights of breath work. And all you do in this 60 minute breath work session is the monk there that teaches you how to breathe in a very, it's a very heavy breathing and very uncomfortable. Your mouth gets really dry. But it puts your mind into a psychedelic state. And so they teach you how to achieve that without any kind of medicine. And people listening to this might be like, okay, that's weird, but look it up. Your body can achieve an altered state of mind just through breathwork. And it's powerful. I saw people in there crying. I saw people in there having revelations. They saw things. And just. With breath work, right?

John Dehlin [00:50:11] Yeah, yeah. And, and how to change your mind talks about that as well.

Drew Manning [00:50:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:14] Why would, let's, why would you want an altered state of mind? So this is kind of like psychedelics 101.

Drew Manning [00:50:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] And, and by the way, religion, religion capitalizes on this. So if you just want to think about it for a second, whether it's whatever did or didn't happen to Joseph Smith or Mohammed or Jesus or followers of a religious tradition that have those moments of deep spirituality, you can kind of get the answer there. But just for those who are listening, why would you even want a psychedelic experience?

Drew Manning [00:50:45] Yeah. Here's my belief. And this is just my two cents. I believe that these plants are on this earth for a reason. And if you look at the coincidence of Ayahuasca, for example, combining some bark with the leaf of a certain tree, like just magically combining those, you get this drink that puts you into an altered state. What are the chances of, you know, humans figuring that out at some point in time? I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:51:14] And having the, and having the neurological receptors where they could even have that experience.

Drew Manning [00:51:20] Exactly. It's almost like our, our brains, our bodies were meant to take these substances where we have these receptors where we can. Yeah, exactly. And so for me, I, and I'm a big fan of Ben Greenfield, who's in the health and fitness industry. He's a very strict Christian guy, but he's a big believer in psychedelics and plant medicine. And so I, I, I always like listening to him when he talks about it because Even though he's still super religious. I am in the same boat where I feel like, okay, if there is a God, he maybe there's substances on this earth that were meant to help us. And I do see a lot of these psychedelics and plant medicines as powerful uses to help us. And maybe altering your state of mind is what you need to see your life, your lens, your situation you're in through a new perspective. Because when you're not in that altered state, you're in the same loops in your, in your brain all the time. Same programming, same loops. And this can help break those loops for some people. I'm not saying it's a miracle or anything like that, but I feel like there are different methods, just like there are different religions and there's different ways of thinking. I don't feel like there's just one way that's going to fix all humans. Maybe there's multiple ways that humans, based off of our past and our experiences can benefit from. Whether it's substances or a set of beliefs or, you know, an organization like a church. Maybe there's all these methods that are used to help all of us. That's my two cents.

John Dehlin [00:52:45] And I. I'll just disclose I've never tried psychedelics at all. I am curious about them because like every post Mormon friend I have has tried either psilocybin or mushrooms, or MDMA or ayahuasca or what's the one, peyote. You know, there are all sorts of these. And when you read how to change your mind, it's so fascinating because you learn, number one, that, that we as a species have been doing for millennia.

Drew Manning [00:53:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:14] Some argue that that's how we distinguished ourselves from other primates through and that, you know, who knows if that's true for sure. But more importantly, one of the things that was most fascinating for me to learn from how to change your mind was that when religions found out that humans were using them to have transcendent experiences, the religions clamped down, made those things forbidden and punished. People who used religions wanted the monopoly on the transcendent experience. They only wanted you having a transcendent experience in the context of their religious tradition, because that gives them power over you.

Drew Manning [00:53:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:53:53] But the one thing that I'll just say is so to answer, to supplement or augment what you said, not because I've done it, but just because I've read about it and talked to lots of people. If you are just having chronic anxiety, if you're having chronic depression, if you are stuck in ruminating intrusive thoughts that just you can't get out of. If you've had certain sorts of trauma that continue haunting you and tormenting you, or if you just feel like you're stuck in a rut and need some sort of transformation. What I'm hearing you say is, and what I think the scientists are now trying to develop and gather data around is sometimes having a psychedelic experience with psilocybin or mushrooms, with mdma, with ayahuasca can provide you with what people like to say can amount to years of therapy in one evening or in a couple evenings. That can really. That's why Michael Pollan called the book how to Change youe Mind. It can literally help you in an accelerated way rewire your brain in ways that become really healthy for you. Is that, that?

Drew Manning [00:55:03] Yeah, that sounds perfect. That sounds great. And I actually agree with that. And that's why you see these studies being done. That's why you see mushrooms, psilocybin, being decriminalized in certain states. That's why you see medical marijuana being legalized in so many states. Because we're starting to really realize that there are benefits to these. Now, with that being said, we're not just saying go and do it, you know, without any kind of supervision, or just take as much as you want, like anything, any kind of substance taken, you know, the wrong way or too much can lead to bad, you know, things happening. Let's, for example, alcohol. Alcohol is a toxin. I don't care how you spin it, like drinking one glass of red wine, it's a toxin, but it makes you feel good. Temporarily. But that we all know what happens if you drink too much alcohol. It's not healthy for you, but for some reason that's legal. Right. But you know, these other psychedelics, these plant medicines, which are totally safe, you know, you know, still aren't. 100 illegal or 100 legal. Sorry. So anyways, you want me to go into Costa Rica? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:04] No, no. So. So, yeah. So why don't we just talk about. So. And just to be clear, listeners, this isn't John advocating psychedelics at all. I've already said that. But more importantly, there's two reasons why we're covering this. One is because, Drew, you said that this was an important part of your experience.

Drew Manning [00:56:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] And so I want to respect and validate that. And then the only second thing is that so many people that I know who've left the church, and so many reasonably well expected authors and podcasters are now starting to talk about this, that to ignore it is to ignore sort of a significant phenomenon that's happening in the world today. So listeners, if you're orthodox Mormon or super conservative and you're freaked out by the fact that we're talking about drugs at all, this is not advocacy, this is not sponsorship. This is not anything other than respecting and validating Drew's experience. Because, Drew, you're about to tell us how this was really formative for you.

Drew Manning [00:57:05] Yeah, yeah. And I'm grateful for that. I think that's very important to put that out there so everyone that's listening and watching understands that this is coming from that place instead of like, hey, go and do this now. So, okay, so Costa Rica, 2018, it's called arrhythmia. They put you in this, you know, nice place down there. And it's more for, it's more for Westerners, you know, that want like a nice hotel to stay in and want like a pool and, you know, so it's, it's definitely a good setup. But the cool thing I liked is, is it's, it's legal in this, in the country of Costa Rica. And so it's, it's, it's medically supervised. So they have a doctor on staff, they have nurses on staff, they do your, they go over your blood work and make sure that you're in a healthy state to be able to take ayahuasca. And you have to be approved by the doctor, you know, so it's not just like they give it to anyone and they do it in a very ceremonial way. It was really spiritual. How they did it reminded me of, of similar things that we do in the temple. To prepare is a very sacred preparation ceremony that they do for the medicine. So you could definitely tell it was like this reverence that you had to have. It wasn't like at a club or at a rave that we were doing this stuff. It was in, in the middle of the jungle. Well, not in the middle of the jungle, but in a nice place in Costa Rica. And you had these shaman that would come in and you take the medicine. So you do four nights in a row of the medicine. The first night, nothing happened. I took it. It didn't taste good. It's just like a, a dirt tasting tea. But nothing happened. And so I was like, okay, that's fine. You know, there's three more nights. So the second night I took a second dose and had probably one of the most powerful spiritual experiences of my life. Talk about that in this moment. Yep. So, you know, you're kind of laid out on these beds and you have your own little bed just like sleep in and a pillow. And so I'm just laying there, my eyes closed and just letting the medicine do its work. And my intention. And that's the other thing when you do psychedelics, I think having intention is super important. My intention was to reconnect with my soul. Right. I feel like as humans, we disconnect from our true selves from the age of like four or five or six, where we are become domesticated and we're told who to be by society, by our parents. And then we start to detach from that true, pure, innocent form of ourselves. And so I went into it with that intention and it was really cool because about like maybe an hour or two in, I see this little version of myself, this five year old little boy, and it was me. And he came up to me and he gave me this hug. And I knew I was having, you know, an ayahuasca experience, but it was real. I could feel him, his arms around my neck and it was this, like I said, a five year old version of myself. And he, and I knew it was me and he gave me a hug and he just like went left. He. He wouldn't let go of me. And I said, how do I reconnect with you? And he said, by how you treat your daughters. He said, how you treat them is how you treat me. And I remember waking up because it was so profound.

John Dehlin [01:00:49] The boy.

Drew Manning [01:00:50] Yes, it was.

John Dehlin [01:00:51] How you treat your daughters is how

Drew Manning [01:00:52] you're gonna treat, treat this inner child, this inner child, which I think we abandon ourselves from that inner child when we become domesticated as adults, right? We kind of just like grow up. But I think everyone, every adult that's hurting is like this wounded child that's been hurt by not enough love or trauma or abuse. And we kind of detach ourselves from that little child. And so anyways, I woke up and it was so profound. I remember scribbling it in my journal. They give you a journal to write down like things like that. And I was like, wow, that was so beautiful. That was so amazing to be able to talk to my inner child, in a sense. And what he said to me was so profound and it really changed my trajectory or my path and as a parent. And for me, that's what I'm saying is like this was a very powerful spiritual experience. You know, I probably wouldn't have had that in the church, probably wouldn't have been able to experience that. And it was such A powerful experience and it's cemented in my brain now what happened in that moment and it helps me to reconnect with my inner child more and check in with myself. Like am I getting lost in the hustle and bustle of life like paying bills, making money, doing the rat race, like am I losing myself? Am I, am I distancing myself from that five year old version of myself? And so for me that was super powerful. And this is actually something that I, I, I, when I work with people, sometimes I have them do this practice where I say, hey, find a picture of yourself when you're five years old and hold that picture in front of you. And the things you say about yourself now as an adult, would you say, would you say those things to that kid looking at that picture of yourself? And it's such a powerful tool for that person to look at that, sorry, that innocent version of themselves. Would they treat themselves, would they treat that child the same way that they're treating themselves now? And I think most adults struggle with self love probably because we weren't taught self love as a kid. So anyways, that was a really powerful experience for me and I try and have my followers that struggle with self love do that practice where they take that picture out of themselves as a little boy or a little girl and they talk to, they talk to that version of themselves. So anyways, that was a really powerful experience doing ayahuasca. I know people will judge it and you know, say whatever about it, but for me it's, it's pretty powerful.

John Dehlin [01:03:41] So it's beautiful.

Drew Manning [01:03:43] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:03:44] Kara, how you doing?

Guest 2 [01:03:46] I'm so professional right now. I'm like not crying, I'm just like working, working. Yeah. John knows that this is my second day here and I have a five year old child at home right now with her dad. And it's something that hits close to home because you know exactly how life can just beat you up and you want to retain that innocence so much. From our children, we don't want that, we don't want life to beat them up, but we know it is. And whether it's the church or whatever else, you know, I'm sure everyone who's a parent goes through this where you're like, what are they going to be in therapy in for if we're like what's the reason they're going to be in therapy in 20 years? And how do I prevent that? You know, and thinking so much about like what you were saying, like how can I give that to my Kid. Now, how can I make sure that I. Yeah. Prepare them for the world that's going to beat them up, but they'll have all of the tools that I didn't have when I was a child, so.

Drew Manning [01:04:35] Yeah. Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:04:37] It was beautiful. Thank you for sharing. Yeah.

Drew Manning [01:04:40] I knew I was gonna get emotional,

John Dehlin [01:04:41] but that's a good thing. It's.

Drew Manning [01:04:42] It's. That's my ayahuasca experience, and that's. It was really powerful.

John Dehlin [01:04:47] You know, we're. Later this week, we're going to be releasing an interview with Lance Allred where he talks about a way to define masculinity in new ways. New, new, new ways to approach Max masculinity. There's this toxic masculinity that men don't cry or that boys shouldn't cry.

Drew Manning [01:05:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:07] And I think men showing emotion is powerful, and it's healing, and so I'm just really, really, really grateful.

Drew Manning [01:05:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:15] That you're willing to model that for us today.

Drew Manning [01:05:17] Yeah. I'm an open book.

Guest 2 [01:05:19] And vulnerability is strength. You know, that's the.

Drew Manning [01:05:21] Oh, where'd you read that?

Guest 2 [01:05:23] I just saw it. Oh, it's a tattoo on your arm.

Drew Manning [01:05:25] Tattoo of my own.

Guest 2 [01:05:26] Did you cry getting that?

Drew Manning [01:05:28] No. But it meant a lot to me. It meant a lot to me, you know, and that's why I'm okay being vulnerable and seeing it as a strength instead of a weakness. I think that was a huge shift in my life, going from vulnerability as a weakness and, you know, manning up, and that eventually broke me. But embracing as a strength is really

Guest 2 [01:05:44] powerful, so it's beautiful. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:46] Thank you so much.

Drew Manning [01:05:48] Okay, sorry.

The Fit2Fat2Fit Journey: Gaining and Losing Weight

John Dehlin [01:05:51] So let's shift a little bit to your fit to fat to fit sort of business. We're not. Obviously, you've got a whole podcast on this and books and. But I want to just give an overview.

Drew Manning [01:06:03] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:06:03] Of your approach to health. And then we're going to come back to the Mormon stuff. We're going to end with some sort of, like, healing and growth beyond Mormonism kind of stuff. But I want to just spend maybe 20, 30 minutes on the fitness stuff.

Drew Manning [01:06:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:16] Is that okay? Okay.

Drew Manning [01:06:18] I'm sorry. Go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:06:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Drew Manning [01:06:19] I was gonna say I'll tie it into the story as well, because I think there's some parallels between doing Fit to Fat to Fit, which is a fitness journey, and how that applied to my life as a Mormon, and then transitioning out of Mormonism as well.

John Dehlin [01:06:31] Let's. Let's do it.

Drew Manning [01:06:32] Yeah. So 2011, I started my first Fit to Fat to fit, experiment. And what that was. The idea behind that was, here I was, someone who had never been overweight a day in my life, trying to help people who were overweight pretty much the majority of their life. And obviously, there was a disconnect. I was judgmental, like, hey, why can't you guys just put down the junk food, go to the gym? It's not that hard. Like, you just do the work, and then you get the results. And so I. I knew there was an. Something I needed to understand, and I had a client tell me, you know, Drew, you don't understand how hard it is for me, for people like me, because for you, it's always been easy. And when he told me that, I kind of took it to heart. I'm like, you're right. I don't understand how it's so hard. It feels so easy for me. And I. I would expect it to be easy for everyone. You just do it, you know? And so anyways, this idea popped up in my head. What if you got fat on purpose? What if you did this experiment, documented it.

John Dehlin [01:07:25] Let me. Let me ask, though, were you already a fitness guy at that time?

Drew Manning [01:07:28] Yeah, I was a personal trainer.

John Dehlin [01:07:29] Okay. So you start out. So just to. Just to kind of get into the story.

Drew Manning [01:07:32] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:07:32] And we talked about some of this last time.

Drew Manning [01:07:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] So you are a personal trainer by this point.

Drew Manning [01:07:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] And you're just working with people individually.

Drew Manning [01:07:40] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:07:40] Right. But then I think you said last time that you were having people were challenging you on your ability to really have empathy for the people you're working with. Right?

Drew Manning [01:07:49] Yeah. 100. Because, you know, what did I know about how hard it was? I just thought you just put down the junk food, put down the soda, and you go to the gym, and it's not that hard. Right. That's kind of the mentality that I grew up with, too, with sports. And the culture that I grew up in was like, hey, you do these hard things, and, you know, you don't complain about it. And I had that willpower, that discipline, and. But anyways, so that kind of got me thinking of ideas. And this idea of getting fat on purpose, I know it sounds crazy and ridiculous. Made sense in my mind. It was like this light bulb went off, and I'm like, oh, it almost felt like a calling to do this. Like, I almost felt like this was a calling for me to do. And so I embarked on this journey. Six months, no exercise. I ate a standard American diet. Lots of Cinnamon Toast Crunch, lots of Mountain Dew, lots of hot Pockets and Doritos and Cheetos and, you know, Mac and cheese and, you know. What else did I have? Top Ramen.

John Dehlin [01:08:38] You know, Were you exercising during all this time?

Drew Manning [01:08:40] No exercise.

John Dehlin [01:08:42] So this is like A. The McDonald's guy that did the. What was that called?

Drew Manning [01:08:45] Morgan Spurlock. Super Size Me.

John Dehlin [01:08:47] Super Size Me. Yeah, like that, right?

Drew Manning [01:08:49] He did it for 30 days and he just ate McDonald's every day. Day. Which. That would be miserable. But he almost died, right? He got super serious, got super unhealthy. Anyways, I was doing it for six months, but I didn't focus on fast food. I wanted to focus on, you know, white bread and white pasta and, like, you know, low fat cereal or like low fat skim milk. Like all these things that are marketed to us as.

John Dehlin [01:09:10] How about Diet Coke?

Drew Manning [01:09:11] Yeah, Diet Coke. I drank lots of Diet Coke.

John Dehlin [01:09:13] That's awful stuff.

Drew Manning [01:09:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:15] I mean, not. Not to judge, but.

Drew Manning [01:09:16] No, no, I know what you mean, though. But like, so many people eat these foods. So I try to focus on the foods that are affordable, cheap, convenient, and they freaking taste good. Like, I'm not gonna lie, Cinnamon Toast Crunch is one of my favorites. So delicious, you know, So I ate that food for six months. I gained 75 pounds in six months. And by this time, the story kind of went viral. Like, people were having me on their TV shows and, you know.

John Dehlin [01:09:38] How'd you get the word out?

Drew Manning [01:09:40] Just word of mouth, to be honest. I got lucky. I. I did have. I got a book deal with Harper Collins at like three, four months in, and they assigned me a publicist, so that did help out. But before that, I was already booked on the Jay Leno Show Tonight Show.

John Dehlin [01:09:55] Just by gaining weight.

Drew Manning [01:09:56] Just by gaining weight and people sharing my story.

John Dehlin [01:10:00] Were you Instagramming this or YouTubing?

Drew Manning [01:10:01] Instagram wasn't around in 2011. It was just Facebook and YouTube.

John Dehlin [01:10:05] You were Facebooking and YouTubing?

Drew Manning [01:10:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:06] What's your YouTube channel or what was

Drew Manning [01:10:08] it Fit to fat to fit.

John Dehlin [01:10:09] Okay. Okay.

Drew Manning [01:10:09] It's the same.

John Dehlin [01:10:10] So. So the. The original videos are just you chowing down?

Drew Manning [01:10:13] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:14] Just gaining lots of weight, right?

Drew Manning [01:10:15] Yeah, you'll see.

John Dehlin [01:10:16] And they're all there right now?

Drew Manning [01:10:17] Yeah, they're still there. Okay, go back and look at the old. I mean, quality wasn't that great because it was just me and my wife at the time filming with her phone and uploading and editing it. Like, it. It's probably pretty horrible, but it still exists. And yeah, it went viral. But here's the thing. Gaining the weight wasn't the hardest part of it, you know, it was losing my identity. My identity was based on my body, so my body image was my self image. And I think if you grew up your entire life in shape, yeah, that's gonna be. Become part of your identity.

John Dehlin [01:10:45] And you had pretty much always been fit.

Drew Manning [01:10:47] Yep. Played football and wrestled since I was a young kid. Eleven brothers and sisters. We all played sports, you know, and so I was always fit and, you know, and then becoming overweight, that was hard for me. I'll be honest with you. I freaked out. Like, I would go up to people in public or I would want to and. And explain to them why I was overweight. Like, I would say, hey, this isn't really me. Here's my before picture. Go to this website. This is just an experiment.

John Dehlin [01:11:13] Was that partly because people were treating

Drew Manning [01:11:14] you different, but in my mind, were they treating you differently? No. No, they didn't really. No one was really mean to me because I think in society, men aren't judged so much for having the dad bod or being huskier. I think women are judged more harshly than men. Would you agree with that?

Guest 2 [01:11:30] Yeah.

Drew Manning [01:11:30] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:11:30] And not to, like, put a damper on how fat you were. I went up and watched some videos, and you barely looked different. Like you. Because you had enough clothes on. I guess when your shirt's off, it's different, but when. I'm sure you. When you're wearing your shirt, your neck was wider, but, like, physically it didn't seem like you were. Like, you were not obese by any means. You know, like, you just were very, very heavy. And so I think you probably projected, I'm assuming that you were 200 pounds heavier instead of, what, 60 pounds heavier?

John Dehlin [01:12:00] That's a lot. 60, 70 pounds is still pretty good, though.

Guest 2 [01:12:03] Everyone go Google it.

Drew Manning [01:12:04] Thank you. I appreciate the compliment, but it was definitely noticeable. If you go back and look at my old footage on Jay Lin or Dr. Oz, people still think it's photoshopped, you know, but the identity thing was really important because, you know, I kind of lost my identity. I freaked out, like, this isn't me. This isn't who I am. And that was a parallel into, you know, me leaving the church, which happened, you know, a few years later. But the identity crisis thing is real. Like, that's really hard for people to deal with. When you lose your identity, whether it's you. Your body changes. Right. Or you lose a religion or whatever it is, there's this identity crisis where people kind of can go into this realm of of confusion and hate and self hate and anger and resentment and mindset or mentality. And people can get stuck there, Right? For me with fit to have to fit, I knew it was temporary, right? I knew this was gonna be over soon, but it was still really hard for me in the moment, that first experience. So I, you know, went on all the TV shows, wrote the book. We actually had our own TV show that I created called Fit to Fat to Fit, and it was on A and E for two seasons. We put other trainers through that process. But the biggest lesson I turn, I took away from this whole experiment was that transformation is way more mental and emotional than we think. I know people that go into weight loss transformations thinking it's going to be physical, like, okay, I need to eat this many calories, here's my macros, here's my workouts, and here's my supplements. And if I do these things, my body will then look like this, but they're not factoring in the human aspect of all of that, and that's the emotions. The emotions of life don't go away. And for so many people, we've programmed our brain to deal with emotional pain by using physical substances to numb that pain, Whether it's food, drugs, alcohol, sex, porn, TV shows, movies, social media, you name it. We have so many things at our fingertips when we deal with emotional pain of life. We programmed ourselves to drink some alcohol, have some cake, eat some ice cream, and you do that for years and decades. And then guess What? When you're 30 years old, 40 years old, and you're 50, 100 pounds overweight, and you're like, okay, I gotta change, you're not, you're, you're looking at, at it wrong by looking at it as just a physical transformation. And you have to eventually deal with those uncomfortable emotions and learn how to release them. Because if you don't, if you hold on to those that hate and that anger and that resentment, and you hold on to that abuse and the trauma that maybe happened to you, it's way harder to be strict and, and live a healthy physical lifestyle unless you learn to release those emotions and deal with them through therapy or life coaching or plant medicine, whatever, the physical stuff becomes so much easier when you deal with the emotional stuff first.

John Dehlin [01:14:42] So when you had gained all that weight, first of all, did you ever fear that you wouldn't be able to lose it again? And then the second part of that question is, was it harder to lose than you thought it would be?

Drew Manning [01:14:54] Yes. And yes. Talk about both of those I remember I was on the Dr. Oz show at my heaviest. I was like, 269 at this point, and I seriously doubted if I would be able to get back. And I was freaking out. I had a little bit of stretch marks on my love handles, and I was like, you know, a little bit concerned, like, what if this doesn't work? And like, I went all. On all these TV shows, and they're like, oh, he's still stuck. He's. He got fat, and now he's stuck. I had those doubts. I had those thoughts, but I just had to trust the process and have faith in the process. Right, right. That eating healthy food and exercising again, my body would bounce back. So I was worried. Second question was, was it harder to lose. Was it harder to lose weight? Yes. I. I kind of compare it to being on top of this mountain my entire life. Like, here I am, this fitness guy up here, and then all my clients are down at the bottom. And from the top, it looks so easy. Like, hey, just follow this path, you guys, and then come up here where I am. And it's not that hard. Right. But for me, for the first time, coming down off that mountain, starting at the bottom was a whole new perspective. And that journey up that I thought was easy from the top was way harder than I thought it was gonna be. Right. The discipline, the. You know, the. The huffing and puffing during the workouts, being sore and tired. And that's why I'm such a. A proponent of bringing more empathy into the fitness industry, because people don't realize how hard that journey is. People don't realize how hard that transit transition is. And so here I am, someone who's normally fit and healthy that can do that kind of lifestyle. Telling everyone that this is. This journey of physical transformation is way more mental and emotional than we think, and it's way harder than we think. So let's have some empathy for those that struggle with weight loss and body image issues.

John Dehlin [01:16:34] So how long did it take you to gain the weight?

Drew Manning [01:16:36] Six months. And six months. Six months to gain. Six months to lose.

John Dehlin [01:16:40] Okay. And then. And then. So talk about losing it. First of all, talk about. I. I. So I've lost £25. Yeah, I've been able to keep it off. I. I fluctuate, you know, over a week, I'll fluctuate plus or minus two or three pounds. Yeah, it's been hard for me to just keep it at a certain weight. I actually kind of want to lose a little bit more. But one of the things I've learned is that it's mostly about food. Yes, I used to, I've always been an exerciser. Margi has always been, you know, getting me out walk in and running, you know, lifting weights or whatever. And I've been doing that forever, but it's, it never really changed anything. For me it was the food. So.

Drew Manning [01:17:18] Yeah.

Diet, Exercise, and the Emotional Side of Weight Loss

John Dehlin [01:17:19] So for you, what were the core components of losing the weight? And then go into detail about the emotional aspect and how you had to better manage the emotional aspect.

Drew Manning [01:17:34] Yeah, yeah, thanks for asking that. So just, just for. Oh, sorry. Just for the record, I've done this journey twice now.

Guest 2 [01:17:39] Right.

Drew Manning [01:17:39] I just did it recently. I actually just finished it a week ago. I've done it and I a 40 year old than I did back in 2011.

John Dehlin [01:17:44] Cuz people. Why did you do it the second time? Cuz people.

Drew Manning [01:17:47] You know, I doing it at one. I, I was a lot younger. My metabolism was different and my, you know, I was, you know, had youth on my side. But also social media wasn't what it is today. So not a lot of people saw it back in 2011. Right. There was no TikTok, there was no Insta stories, there was no Facebook live. So I wanted to do it again to really bring home this message of having more empathy for those that struggle. And, and that was my vehicle, doing it, doing it a second time to bring more empathy into the fitness industry. So, so okay, overcoming the emotional aspect with, especially with food. And this is man, this is why the emotional connection to food is I think what stops most people.

John Dehlin [01:18:27] Okay, wait, before you talk about the emotional, what, how did you eat? To lose, to lose the weight?

Drew Manning [01:18:34] Yeah. So in 2011 I did a, a, I wouldn't say a bodybuilder approach, but it was a high protein, low fat, moderate carb diet where you ate every few hours. So six meals a day.

John Dehlin [01:18:46] Six meals a day.

Drew Manning [01:18:47] This is in 2011, the first time. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:18:50] And what types of meals? Give us some examples of the types.

Drew Manning [01:18:52] Oh, like you know, green smoothie for breakfast with some protein in it. You know, some snacks that were like hard boiled eggs and some vegetables, you know, lunch.

John Dehlin [01:19:01] What types of vegetables?

Drew Manning [01:19:04] Cucumbers, celery, maybe some saute like broccoli or asparagus. You know, boring vegetables.

John Dehlin [01:19:11] Oh, I love vegetables.

Drew Manning [01:19:13] Okay, awesome. Most people don't, but like yeah, you steam some vegetables, add a little bit of salt to it and then you know, maybe some type of lean meat like chicken or turkey or something that didn't have a lot of fat. So an egg White omelette or something like that. And fast forward to this time. Now, I'm a proponent of keto. So I'm doing high fat fat, moderate protein, low carb, and I eat twice a day.

John Dehlin [01:19:34] So give us an example.

Drew Manning [01:19:36] Yeah. So intermittent fasting. I'll have, like, coffee in the morning.

John Dehlin [01:19:39] Okay.

Drew Manning [01:19:39] I'll eat lunch, which usually consists of, like an egg scramble. So eggs, vegetables, and maybe some sausage. And then for dinner, maybe some grass.

John Dehlin [01:19:46] What vegetables do you mix into your eggs?

Drew Manning [01:19:48] Yeah, yeah, in my eggs. Spinach. I'll do mostly spinach and spinach. Cauliflower, broccoli, or brussels sprouts. Yeah, you know, mix that up with some bacon or some potatoes. No, no, because with ketosis, the goal with ketosis is to achieve a state of ketosis. In order to do that, you need to cut out carbs. Right. It's our body's backup system when we don't have. If you run out of food. Food, John, you're not going to die tomorrow. You can last probably a month or two, maybe longer without food.

John Dehlin [01:20:17] People don't realize that.

Drew Manning [01:20:18] Yeah. So that's what ketosis is, is our burning our stored body fat and turning that body fat into energy. And. And so keto is a diet that mimics fasting, but you have to cut out your carbohydrates in order to mimic fasting.

John Dehlin [01:20:33] So some people are either afraid of or concerned about ketosis or keto because it's like, oh, bacon, meat grease, fat, and they think cholesterol. And is this good for your heart? Does ketosis have to be super high fat fat? Can it just be healthy proteins? Yeah, and vegetables, but. But not greasy fat. And is there risk if you're. If you're eating the super high fat, greasy stuff?

Drew Manning [01:21:01] That's a good question. So it's very individual. But I will say this similar to what I talked about before, how we were told fat was bad for us, where we thought like, oh, my, my arteries are gonna clog. I'll get a heart attack. Like, it's not safe. That myth has been debunked. If you look at newer science and based off of these older studies, the old studies weren't formulated in. In a way that would work. Right. Because they. They didn't account for other macronutrients. So high fat diet would meant a burger and fries and a milkshake. Right. So they're eating high fat, but look at all the carbohydrates that are in that food as well. If you look at the newer studies, you do a Ketogenic diet with low carb. Right. It's totally safe. But I'm not, I'm not saying go eat bacon, go eat sausage, go eat like just drink the grease or chew on butter. Like that's how people think it is, is you can definitely do a lower fat version of keto and still achieve ketosis. But there's different ways of doing keto. I'm more in the middle ground where it's like, hey, if you're gonna do keto, do it by eating whole foods. So eating these vegetables, whether you eat a lean meat or a steak for me, isn't the most important part. You can get your fat from avocados and things like that. That's more plant based. Coconut and olives as well. Olive oil, you can get your fat from that stuff too. You don't have to get it from bacon and, and fatty cuts of meat, you know.

John Dehlin [01:22:18] Okay, so but you were talking about the lunch. Anything else you want to say about dinner?

Drew Manning [01:22:22] Oh yeah. And dinner would be like, maybe like a grass fed steak with, yeah, sauteed asparagus or you know, mashed cauliflower, you know, instead of mashed potatoes.

John Dehlin [01:22:31] And you're avoiding, I assume you're avoiding like breads, white flour, rice and potatoes, is that right?

Drew Manning [01:22:39] Yeah, yeah. Anything that has a large amount of carbohydrates. I'm not saying those foods are bad food.

John Dehlin [01:22:42] You.

Drew Manning [01:22:42] That's not what I'm trying to say. But when you're trying to achieve a state of ketosis, you do need to limit carbohydrates. So those things have lots of carbohydrates in them. So you can have them, but probably in really, really tiny amounts. Uh, you want to keep your carbs 30 grams or less. For most people to achieve a state of ketosis, if you keep your carbohydrates 30 grams or less, your body will start producing ketones. Cuz there's not enough glucose to fuel your brain, muscles, organs to function properly. And so, yeah, to achieve ketosis, you need to cut down the carbs quite a bit, grams or less. And so from there your body's in a state of ketosis where it's burning fat as energy instead of burning sugar, which is what carbohydrates get turned into, they get turned into glucose in the body. Right. You're burning fat as energy instead of sugar as energy.

John Dehlin [01:23:27] And explain really quickly the intermittent fasting and why, why two meals a day works for you.

Drew Manning [01:23:31] Yeah. When you're in a state of ketosis, you're not nearly as hungry as when you're eating carbohydrates. Right? So when you eat carbohydrates, which gets turned into glucose, glucose is kind of like, like if you threw lighter fluid on a fire, your. Your body, like the fire goes up really high really quick, but then it falls back down really quick too. That's glucose. Your body burns through it really fast. When you're in a state of ketosis, those ketones are kind of like logs or coal of the fire that stay hot for a long period of time. You're not getting these big bursts, but also that, that flame lasts a, a long time. Right. And that's kind of what ketones do for the body. So you don't feel as hungry as often. Then if you're eating lots of protein, lots of fat, little carbs, you're. You'll feel satiated longer. So that's what I like about ketosis is I can eat once or twice a day, my brain is sharper, my digestion is better, cause I'm not having to eat every three hours. I give my digestive system a break. And you know, keto is anti inflammatory as well. And there's a lot of health benefits for. There's lots of studies on Parkinson's and Alzheimer's and ptsd, traumatic brain injury, migraines even. There's lots of research being done on keto. And also keto was discovered in the 1920s to help children that had severe epilepsy. So we all know, you know, there's the, the Charlie foundation you mentioned. Right, the. That movie with Meryl Streep. What's it called? Remember that movie with Meryl Streep back in the day?

John Dehlin [01:24:51] Not Lorenzo's Oil?

Drew Manning [01:24:52] No, no, it's a different one. It's based, it's based on Charlie, who they started that foundation after. So anyways, yeah, it's. It helps with severe epilepsy as well.

John Dehlin [01:25:03] So what, what do you need, what, what are some basics people need to do for exercise that are sustainable?

Drew Manning [01:25:09] Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is like I. Sure there's like lifting weights, which is going to help out men and women, but I know it turns a lot of people off. If, if I were to prescribe something to people listening, something sustainable, any kind of resistance training, whether it's your own body weight or whether it's weights at the gym is going to help in the long run because your metabolism is based on how much lean body mass you have. The more lean body mass you have, the higher your metabolism is. So the more muscles you have, the, the more calories you burn at rest. So for me, with my muscle mass, I can burn, you know, I don't know, 24, 2500 calories a day if I didn't move muscle. So that means If I ate 2400 calories a day, I would maintain my weight. And, and that's without moving a muscle. Right. If I exercise on top of that and I'm moving, doing laundry, walking around the house, I'm gonna burn more, more, more calories than that, of course. So, you know, I'm eating closer to like 3000 calories sometimes. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:26:05] Totally.

Drew Manning [01:26:05] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:26:06] Okay, so now let's go to. Let's say our listeners are like, okay, now I know the diet, now I know the exercise. Talk about the emotional component and how.

Drew Manning [01:26:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:26:15] What, what emotions came up for you then?

Drew Manning [01:26:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:18] And will come up for our listeners. And then how did you deal with or cope with those emotions?

Drew Manning [01:26:23] Yes, 100. So the emotional connection to food is, is really hard to break. It's like any addiction, just like drug addiction or anything like that. That's why I have so much empathy for those that struggle with it. Because unlike drugs, food is legal. Right. And you can get it anytime you want to. And at the tip of your fingertips, right. It's uber eats. You can go to the restaurant, you can go to a grocery store. And like I said, when you deal with emotional pain in life, some of us reach for something to numb that pain. And for a lot of us, it's food. Because like I said, food is very accessible. It's convenient, it's cheap, and it tastes good and it makes you feel good. Good. I went through that experience myself. I went through a really hard breakup during my second Fit to Fat to Fit journey. And I remember eating Ben and Jerry's dairy free Netflix and chilled ice cream, which is amazing, by the way. Don't go buy it because it's very addictive. But when I went through my breakup, I was sad, lonely and depressed. And there was this moment where I'm like, eating this ice cream makes me feel better. Literally makes me feel better. And so to break that habit, for people to say, okay, now I'm gonna be healthy, I'm gonna cut the sugar out. They don't factor in the emotions of life. And how those are gonna play into their, their physical weight loss journey. And so to break that is really hard. Here's the key to overcoming any kind of addiction, and that is self awareness. As you become more self aware, you Learn who you are and you learn why you do what you do. So self awareness can be built in many ways. Therapy, life coaching, meditation, journaling, becoming the observer of your thoughts. And what happens in those moments where you become the observer of your thoughts and you build that self awareness. Now when you're. Your kids are freaking out, they're stressing you out, your spouse is driving you crazy, you're struggling with finances, you're like, dude, just give me some cake and give me some wine. Like, I need some. I just need to relax. Right in that moment when you become the observer and you've built that self awareness. Now you can take a step back and breathe for a second, say, okay, what's happening here? My kids are triggering me. This is triggering me. It's bringing up these emotions. And now instead of just reacting and going for it and then stuffing your face with all this food, and then you feel guilty later, now you can play it out in your head and be like, all right, do I want to go down that path? Maybe, maybe sometimes it's worth it, right? Like, maybe sometimes it is worth it to just be like, screw it, give me a drink, give me some food. But in that moment of building that self awareness, you're more in control to where you can thoughtfully respond and be like, all right, is this what my higher self wants? Do I really want some ice cream? And maybe be like, I said, sometimes you do. It's all about intention. But at least you're more in control now, becoming the observer of your thoughts and building that self awareness. So meditation, positive affirmations, gratitude, lists, journaling, getting out, nature, those things, all those

John Dehlin [01:29:02] things that were helping you in your religious transition.

Drew Manning [01:29:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:29:05] Helped you in your fitness.

Drew Manning [01:29:07] Yeah. And it helps other people as well in their fitness. Because a lot of people, you know, they, they work with me and they think, okay, what are my. What are my macros? What exercise do I do? What are my calories that I eat every day? It's like, okay, okay, first, what, what, what. What haven't you let go of in your life? Like, what are you dealing with that is going to come up? Is it your finances? Is it your spouse? Like, what causes you the most stress? And learning to deal with that first and foremost before, if I just give someone meal plans and workouts and say, here, do it, I know that at some point, after three weeks of, like, being consistent, that those emotions are going to come up again at some point. And then that then they go through this vicious cycle of, of binge eating and then feeling Guilty and beating themselves up more and saying, why can't I get this body? Why can't I look this way? As if, if, if the problem is our perception of success. We look at health and fitness as, oh, I'm successful, if I get this body. Like, once I get this body, then I will be happy. Right. And we look for these outside sources of happiness, whether it's religion, whether it's the perfect body, this much money, these things are going to make me happy. Like these things are going to fill those holes that exist. And what I'm trying to tell people is that's a myth. Just like chasing after money. We know that's a myth. Right. I know a lot of miserable people at 5% body fat that, that still hate themselves. So getting the body isn't the answer. It's learning to operate out of a place of self, love, loving who you are now while you continue to work on this better version of yourself, you know, while you continue to, you know, you know, find this, this best version of yourself as you go through life, as you upgrade and, and progress. I believe that people can be happy now, first and foremost where they are, even though life isn't perfect, even though they don't have the perfect body, they don't have the money they want, they don't have all the, like, all the things check, place they, you know, I feel like I can teach people how to become happy and fulfilled now even though they don't have the perfect body, you know, and you can love yourself now even though you don't have the money or the lifestyle that you want. Like that's kind of the myth. I'm the cycle I'm trying to break in the fitness industry.

John Dehlin [01:31:06] Yeah. It's like trying to diet when you've got major life problems you haven't resolved is like putting a band aid on a gash.

Drew Manning [01:31:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:13] You have to, to address the major laceration, get it cleaned, get it stitched up.

Drew Manning [01:31:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:20] And, and then, you know, then the other sorts of things have a chance of working. Yeah, but, but if you're going to bleed out, a band aid's just probably not going to help you. Right?

Drew Manning [01:31:29] Yeah. And there's a good book called the Body Keeps the Score about trauma and how that affects our physical bodies. And I think that's a really, really good book to understand. That's when you recommend, yeah, I went through the, this traumatic experience or this abuse or whatever it was that happened to you. And just being aware of, of how that, you know, has affected you your whole Life, how that has affected your body. And like I said, some people abuse food just like we abuse drugs, and it numbs the pain temporarily. And I don't condone that behavior. All I'm saying is I understand it on a whole nother level now. I can empathize with those that struggle with food addiction. The problem that we have is, is people are so quick to judge someone that's large or obese because they think, oh, oh, what's like, why can't you fix your problems? You know, why can't you just eat less food and work out? It's like going up to a drug addict and saying, why don't you stop doing drugs? Like, it's not that hard. You just stop it. It's like, we all know that's not the truth. But with food addicts, we're. We judge them harsh, more harshly in our society. And unfortunately, because you're defined by what your body looks like, and I'm trying to break that cycle or disrupt the fitness industry by letting people know one, it's harder than we think it is. We need to have empathy first and foremost and understand that, you know, everyone has their own mental, emotional issues that they're going through. And, yeah, this one person's, you can see how it manifests on their body. And maybe for you, you hide it well with, you know, in different ways. So all I'm saying is we need more empathy. And if we could learn to have empathy for ourselves first and foremost, it's going to be easier to have empathy for other people, too.

John Dehlin [01:32:59] Love it.

Drew Manning [01:33:00] So.

Guest 2 [01:33:01] Oh, I was just going to say it was funny sitting over here as the only woman in the room when you guys were talking about that food is the number one thing that you need to watch out for to control your weight. And I'm over here thinking how a year ago today I was eight months pregnant and I'm like, you guys know nothing about being fat. You guys know I don't care how much weight you've gained. No, just kidding. But, yeah, not getting pregnant is my most important tip for not feeling fat. I am done having kids. But yeah, to that point, though, like, as a woman who. I am so happy that you're bringing up a lot of these things about how if you have a whole crap. I have a video about filling holes that people keep referencing. I can't say filling holes ever again. If you have something missing within you and trying to go to an external source and thinking that the perfect body will make you happy, I am at least happy That a long time ago, I heard a TED talk by a former supermodel, I think, and she talked about, if you. You think that having the perfect body will give you complete mental clarity and happiness, I can show you a room full of supermodels who have the tightest abs, like the best thigh gaps, and they're all miserable. And I heard that when I was 20 years old. And I'm like, okay, whatever my body is, I'm just gonna make sure to love it as it is. And I have. I have, as a woman, as just anybody. You have at any given time, 10 problems that your brain is trying to figure out. And like having so much grace for whatever stage your body's in and not. Yeah. Not completely forcing it in a square peg into a round hole at all times of what you are, what your perception. You love using the word perception. And now I'm like, catching on to it. Yeah, whatever your perception of what you think it should be at any given time, that it has to be. And, like, giving yourself grace for whatever period that you happen to be in, in your life. So that's my feminine take on.

Drew Manning [01:34:53] Amen to that. Yeah, that's perfect. That's a great way to. Yeah, that definitely you. I think you worded it a lot better than I did.

Guest 2 [01:35:00] I didn't.

Drew Manning [01:35:00] Yeah, that was great.

Guest 2 [01:35:02] I didn't. You have a podcast. You're so good at talking. You have a great way of articulating yourself, Drew.

Drew Manning [01:35:08] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:35:09] Well, this is great. So. So, I mean, we could talk about fitness forever, but I think that gives people maybe a book and some resources if people want to. I want to get back to the Mormon stuff. If people want to understand the basics of your program, they go where?

Drew Manning [01:35:22] Just fit to fat to fit dot com.

John Dehlin [01:35:24] Okay.

Drew Manning [01:35:24] Yeah. All right. So super simple and on social media and, you know, fit to fat to fit. Okay, so.

Coming Out, Authenticity, and Mental Health

John Dehlin [01:35:32] All right, so let me ask you this. So when you. Number one, when you've been a Mormon, it's hard to decide if you're going to leave the church. Do you come out or not? There's come out or not. There's so many people that keep it a secret. They don't want to anger or disappoint their parents, their grandparents, their friends, their siblings, their community, maybe their job, job, maybe their profession. There'd be financial risks by coming out. So just being Mormon or in any high demand religion and contemplating being public about your disaffection or leaving is fraught. But then if you're an influencer, you know, Every view, every follow can be really precious, especially when you're trying to build something and there's so much competition out there. I imagine that deciding to come out publicly with. With fear of that influencing your business even ups the stakes more. So, going back to your story now, how did you decide if to come out, who to come out to or not to come out to, and how to come out and then. And then how did that go?

Drew Manning [01:36:40] Yeah, that's a good question. This. Actually, I consider this my coming out, out moment, to be honest with you, of the church. I've.

John Dehlin [01:36:47] So you waited. You waited.

Drew Manning [01:36:48] I've never used my platform to talk about my religion, so I've never once said, hey, I'm Drew the Mormon, right? Like, I never once talked about religion on my platform. So in my episode, on my podcast, episode 100, I did talk about how I did transition out of my church and left my religion. But this is my first story of, like, really getting into the details, to be honest with you. So this is kind of like my coming out moment went. Even though I left years ago and people could kind of tell. I started getting tattoos and talk about drinking coffee, and I would, you know, promote these, like, ketogenic wines that I. That I drink. And so people could tell, right? But I never publicly said, hey, guys, I left the Mormon Church, and here's why I've said I've left my religion. I. You know, it was. It wasn't something I wanted to make a big deal about because, one, I don't. I don't want to be. I don't want to be defined by that, by either I am a Mormon or I'm not a Mormon, but it was just a part of my story. Now, coming out to my family, that's a whole different. That's a whole different conversation. But basically, coming out to my family was really, really hard because I told both my parents at the same time.

John Dehlin [01:37:53] How long ago?

Drew Manning [01:37:55] 2015. Oh, wow. I called them on the phone and told them about my divorce. I told them for the first time about my affair, and I told them about my issues with the church all in one phone call.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] That's a lot.

Drew Manning [01:38:07] And that was. Yeah, that was heavy. That was really hard. I'm. Like, I said, I'm a crier, and I. It was hard for me to get through sentences because I was crying so much because it was so traumatizing for me at the time, you know, and it was really hard to talk through it. But it. You, like, you know, when people describe a feeling 100 pounds lighter. I literally felt so much lighter after that experience. It was so hard. I was shaking, I was nervous, I was crying. I couldn't like, finish my sentences. Is. It was really, really hard for me to open up and talk about it because I knew it would hurt them. I knew it would hurt them. And did it? Probably.

Guest 2 [01:38:41] I remember I was. I was listening to your. You mentioned the last podcast about. Your most popular downloaded podcast was your 100th, 100th episode. I listened to that this morning and you mentioned how when they found you, you came home from Christmas and they found a picture of you drinking and you realized that you never wanted to. You're like, okay, I'm never talking to them about anything again. Had you had a pretty closed off relationship with your parents up to that point and this was extreme, like extra difficult?

Drew Manning [01:39:09] Yeah, I've never had a close relationship with them and we just didn't know how to talk through things. I was very private and quiet about my issues. You know, I just pretended they didn't exist. And then when they found that picture of me in college drinking at a party and we had that uncomfortable conversation with them in their bedroom, it was really, really hard for me to ever open up to them. Them again after that. Like, I felt so ashamed that they found this picture of me and they knew I was drinking in college and I just wanted to jump out the window. So, like, I couldn't even look at them. I had to look away and just. It was, it was a really hard experience for me to go through. And like I said, they did the best they could, you know, and I don't blame them. But at the same time, it was really traumatizing for me because I didn't feel like I could ever trust them or talk to them about things I'm experiencing. It was just like, hey, don't do this because you're stupid if you do do it. You know, that's kind of my experience from that. But this experience, like talking them on the phone after my divorce was really hard because it was finally me telling them the truth. Like, this is me. Like, I got divorced, we're getting divorced. I had an affair. I don't know if I believe in the church anymore. And it was just like a coming out, you know, situation where I was like, this is me. And, you know, they, they did the best they could. They're like, we still love you. And, you know, and said all the, the nice things. And it was. I felt so much better after that. But to this day, it's Hard to have a real conversation, you know, with them. And what did it do for you

John Dehlin [01:40:34] to come out to them?

Drew Manning [01:40:36] What did it do for me, man, that was so healing because it was. It was this whole life I've lived was wearing a mask, right, of who I'm pretending to be. And to take off that mask and say, this is me, like, here I am and I still love myself, that was really, really hard. But it was so worth it because 100. Worth it. Because on the other side of that is happiness, fulfillment, authenticity, things you can't be when you're stuck in this. This place where you're. You kind of have to pretend, you know, And I don't want to do that anymore. I don't. It broke me. And I've done that path. I've tried it. I've, you know, it's not like I didn't have enough faith or didn't pray enough or I didn't do something. It was. Is I've tried that path. It just did not work for me. And it broke me. And now having, you know, said my piece to them about it, it was like, okay, now I can be me. I can go in this life and be me and not have to worry about feeling guilty or ashamed and hiding this or that from anyone in my life. Like, I want to be as open as possible, talk to my kids about everything, and to have that relationship where, like, you know, they like and. And just say, this is me, me. This is. This is who I am, and I love myself. And if you don't love me, that's okay. I don't judge you. You know, that's. That's not for me to control, but that's for me to strive for in this life. Is that self love.

John Dehlin [01:41:58] So, yeah, can. Can I just jump in and say that we talk about filling the holes. We talk about the serious emotional wounds or sources that drain you in life of emotional energy, of happiness, of. Of comfort, of security. And this is just a message directly to my listeners. Being inauthentic, living a lie, wearing masks, hiding who you really are is toxic. It drains your energy. It causes anxiety, it causes anger. And I believe that chronic illness, autoimmune diseases, all sorts of mental illnesses, again, anxiety, depression, can emerge from living these false lives, hiding things and not being authentic. And so it is, you know, think about healing from a trauma. Yes, do that. Think about getting. Getting medication for a severe mental illness. Yes, do that. Eat right, exercise. What we, I think, minimize is the physical and the emotional and the psychological costs of Living an inauthentic, fake life. Now, is that true or true or false?

Drew Manning [01:43:17] For me, it's 100 true. Because that's what I experienced, Right. That's what I lived. And you can justify it, staying in that place of inauthenticity, like, oh, it'll make my parents proud. It'll make this person happy. It'll make that person happy.

John Dehlin [01:43:29] But I'd like, I might not lose some money.

Drew Manning [01:43:30] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:43:31] I might not lose some friends, right?

Drew Manning [01:43:34] Yes. And, like, it comes back to Teddy Roosevelt stepping into the arena. The man in the arena. Like, that's so scary. It's easier to stay back in the stands and just. Just watch from the sidelines, if you will, but to get in the arena is freaking scary, and it's hard, but that's where the growth is, and that's where I feel like you can find true fulfillment in this life, and it's worth it. So it was scary for me to come out and talk about the episode 100. That's when I got this tattoo.

John Dehlin [01:43:59] Show the. Show the audience.

Drew Manning [01:44:01] How can they. Can you.

John Dehlin [01:44:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah, that works.

Drew Manning [01:44:04] I'm not trying to flex my muscles.

John Dehlin [01:44:06] Yeah, yeah, flex your muscle. That's okay. No, but what is this?

Drew Manning [01:44:10] Say vulnerability is strength.

John Dehlin [01:44:12] Yeah.

Drew Manning [01:44:13] And I. I 100 agree.

John Dehlin [01:44:15] Or how is that true? Like, we're all taught that to. To. To show. To. To admit your weaknesses. To admit. I mean, you admitted freaking adultery on national, international YouTube. You know, like, how can that be strength to show your weakness? That's counterintuitive.

Drew Manning [01:44:32] Yeah, I get that. For me, it is because we talked about the whole mask thing, the whole step into the arena. That's really where. Where. That's really where it counts, and that's really where you find your true self. And you could play the games and wear all the masks in this life, but I feel like if you do, you're. I don't know. I just feel like you're. You have this one opportunity that we know of, right. To live this life as authentically as possible. Like, I feel like if there is a God, that's what he wants us to do in this life is to not just blindly follow and pretend to be someone that you're not. Not. I feel like we. We were meant to be this version of ourselves. And I promise you, it's scary, but once you do it, it's so freeing, and it's worth all the. The fear and all the. All the, you know, worries you have. So. So anyways, love it.

Guest 2 [01:45:22] And on the topic of you know, assessing where our mental health problems might come from, where autoimmune disorders might come from, and realizing, hey, maybe instead of like putting a band aid over the glass on our physical foot, let's like take out the glass. Let's analyze where this is coming from. And it could be the church, it could be a myriad of different things. And I just wanted to read a comment from the live stream right now. This person says, sorry, I need to speak into the mic. Don't. I agreed on figuring out that the mental stuff in addition to fitness stuff. I couldn't successfully transform my body through nutrition and exercise until I figured out out my gender identity and started transitioning. Now that I identify as a guy, I am loving fitness and easier to love my body and make conscious choices that align with my goals.

John Dehlin [01:46:11] Wow.

Guest 2 [01:46:11] So I thought that was a really beautiful comment.

John Dehlin [01:46:12] Thank you.

Drew Manning [01:46:13] Tell them thank you. Whoever that is.

John Dehlin [01:46:15] Yeah.

Drew Manning [01:46:15] Shout them out.

John Dehlin [01:46:16] Yeah, that's, that's something that self knowledge is just something we don't ever often think to do in a high demand religion because it's not about understanding who you are.

Drew Manning [01:46:26] Are. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:26] It's about, wait, what are the rules? What are the standards? What are the expected behaviors? What's the expected identity? Okay. Let me be so busy doing all that.

Drew Manning [01:46:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:35] That we never stop to ask who am I? What do I care about? What drives me?

Drew Manning [01:46:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:40] And that's a beautiful comment from, from our listener viewers. So thank you so much for sharing.

Drew Manning [01:46:44] Yeah. I think, you know, at the end of the day, since we're like rounding this up, it ties back into the inner child thing. Like we lose who we truly are around that age because we were become domesticated animals almost. And we're told who. How to behave throughout society. And, and you see that, you'll see like I've seen my, my girls even that are 11 and 9 slowly kind of detach from that pure, innocent, you know, five year old self that, that we all once were. And, and it's, it's hard to tap back into that. Luckily I've been able to tap back into that. But I catch myself getting lost in like I gotta pay these bills. I gotta do this to make money. I gotta, you know, look like this. All these expectations that life puts on you, you can lose yourself in that. So I'm saying is like you can find yourself through, through religion. I believe that 100. You can find yourself through all different methods. But I feel like, you know, I feel like whatever works best for you then. Awesome. I believe you. Right. But also Believe whatever works best for me too.

John Dehlin [01:47:42] Yeah.

Drew Manning [01:47:42] And that's where we need to have empathy for others. And, you know, you can have empathy for someone that maybe stays in Mormonism. 100. Like, if that's your true belief that you feel like that's where you need to be be, then I'll support you and love you through all of that. Right. And you know, I would want the same thing in return. So, anyways, love it. Yeah.

Lightning Round, Final Reflections, and Farewell

John Dehlin [01:48:02] So let's do a quick lightning round. I'm gonna ask you where you've landed on a few things. So where have you landed on God? No. Right answer.

Drew Manning [01:48:10] Yeah. I don't know. But I have hope that there's something after this life, but I don't believe. 100 yes or 100 no.

John Dehlin [01:48:18] Okay.

Drew Manning [01:48:18] I'm open to being wrong.

John Dehlin [01:48:21] How about Jesus? Where have you landed with Jesus?

Drew Manning [01:48:23] Same thing. I don't. I don't know, really. I. You know, there's scriptures and the stories about him, about him being a real person, but like I said, I don't. Even if I do believe in Him, I don't know what that would mean. Like, okay, does that mean I join the Mormon church if I believe in him? Or do I join a Christian church because I believe in him? I don't know. I don't. I never met him in person and I. I wasn't there at that time when those things happen. So for me to say I don't know just means that I don't know, like, I wasn't there.

John Dehlin [01:48:56] And are you okay with that?

Drew Manning [01:48:58] Yeah, I'm okay with that.

John Dehlin [01:48:59] Well, how are you? Like, some people are like, oh, my gosh, if you. If you lose your faith in Jesus or in God or in the afterlife, why even live like, you may as well just pack it up and end your life. Life. Because if I don't know that I'm going to be living after this life, and if I don't have a purpose and meaning that my church has given to me. Yeah, then what's the point? Life is so crummy, I may as well just end it.

Drew Manning [01:49:22] For me, it's not so much trusting in Jesus Christ as the Savior. It's trusting in the stories that we know about Him. The stories that we know about him are based on certain men's perceptions of maybe an experience or a story that they heard or they wrote about they saw thousands of years ago. And all I'm saying is I don't know if I trust the people that wrote these stories. It has nothing to do with Jesus. Has everything to do with the stories that were written about him and how they've changed or evolved over the years. Like, who knows? Who knows? And so, like, all I'm saying is if I. If my. If my. If I'm dependent upon getting to heaven, if that's based on my belief in Jesus Christ or not, then. Then, okay, then that's a weird, unfair judgment, I think. But because there's millions of people who don't know who he is, you know, or never heard of him or, you know, never met him. And I just feel like it's. It's. I don't. I wouldn't want to believe in a God that's like, oh, you had your chance to follow and you did it, and therefore you're damned for eternity. So I'm fine with not knowing. To be totally honest with you, it makes me feel so free to say, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:50:28] So what's the purpose of life for you?

Drew Manning [01:50:29] You?

John Dehlin [01:50:29] Why. Why bother?

Drew Manning [01:50:31] I don't know. But all I know is it feels good to be good. It feels good to do good things and to help other people. That's. For me, the most fulfilling part of this life is giving to other people, making them feel happy, loving myself. What's the purpose of this life? I don't think anyone knows.

John Dehlin [01:50:47] What's the purpose of your life?

Drew Manning [01:50:50] To be the best dad I can be and to show my girls how they deserve to be loved and to help other people out as much as I can through my social media platform, through the videos I do and the content I create. Share with them what's. What's worked for me. And I think as humans, it's up to us to share that knowledge of what's worked for us and pass it on. And maybe it'll help other people and maybe it won't stick and it won't help other people. But for me, I don't have to. I feel like I don't have to put a definition on why are we here? Where are we going? Where were we from? Who's God? Who's Jesus Christ? I feel like. I feel like we don't have to put a definition or a label on all that. It's my belief.

Guest 2 [01:51:34] And if this live stream went out to nobody except for me and the three of us in this room, I would have been, like, experiencing so much elevated emotion and so, so enlightened by everything you've said today. So I've been feeling the spirit. Yeah. I need to grab more tissues over here. Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:51:53] For me. For me When I had my faith crisis and went through the depression, converting that into a purpose, which has become Mormon Stories, was a crucial part of my own mental health and growth. For you, how has fit to fat to fit provided you with that meaning or purpose or fulfillment? Or has it?

Drew Manning [01:52:12] Yeah, 100%. All these lessons that I've shared on this podcast that I've learned over the years have come from my own personal journey, my own personal faith, faith transition, if you will, that have really have been applied into my life and I pass on to my followers lives as well by giving them these tools that can help them whatever religion they are, or, or if they're not even part of a religion, all these, these tools can be applied into all areas of life. And that's kind of how I've become who I am today because of my personal experiences.

John Dehlin [01:52:42] All right, so. So there's a lot of people out there either going through it right now, they're going to be going through it, or they're in the middle of it, or they're like, like maybe some people are flailing. What is some final advice you can give people who either contemplating a, a change in their relationship with their religious tradition or are in the middle of a change? Just some closing advice, words of wisdom for people who are really in the

Drew Manning [01:53:06] thick of a faith transition man. First of all, everyone that's listening, you are worth it to fight for your happiness, whether it's inside the church or outside the church. And I feel like if you could develop self love, love, like it's never too late to love yourself. I don't care if you're 70, 80 years old, you can still learn to love that inner child that we talked about and really tap into that. And I feel like if you can tap into that and connect with your, your soul, if you will, I feel like you can look upon other people with the same kind of love and empathy that you can develop for yourself. And so if you operate out of a place of self, love, this life will be so much more fulfilling because we don't really know what's going to happen after this life. So, you know, I know a lot of times in scriptures it says, eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. Like, or, yeah, you can do that too. But also love and live and give to others and learn how to be fulfilled. And it starts with loving yourself first and foremost. And I believe that you can truly do that inside and outside of Mormonism. And I feel like that's how this life was meant to be lived. Live And I feel like you will be. Your relationships in your life will change so much better if you operate out of a place of self love versus self hate. And so that's kind of how I, I would end this.

John Dehlin [01:54:20] Beautiful.

Drew Manning [01:54:21] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:54:22] All right, so how do people, if they want to read more, learn more, tell them one more time all the ways they can check you out.

Drew Manning [01:54:29] Yeah. Fit number two, fat number two, fit. And that's everything. Just Google that.

John Dehlin [01:54:35] Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, tick tock, Facebook. Facebook. You got a couple books, right?

Drew Manning [01:54:42] Yeah, a couple books. Fit to Fat to Fit. Same title and Complete Keto is my other book.

John Dehlin [01:54:48] Beautiful.

Drew Manning [01:54:48] Yeah. All right. And all this stuff that I talked about is included into my programs or that book, these methods that I talked about. So beautiful. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:59] Kara, any final words Today?

Guest 2 [01:55:02] I listened to the 100th episode and then right after that of, of his podcast. And then right after that is his ex wife Lynn, giving her. I think it's like a top 10 words of wisdom of things that she learned.

Drew Manning [01:55:16] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:55:17] Post faith transition, post divorce. And I wish, I wish I could pump that information into everybody's brain. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:25] We'll put those episodes in the show notes.

Guest 2 [01:55:27] It was, it's, it was really a beautifully condensed words of wisdom of everything that she'd learned from a lot of things in an in an hour podcast. So I'd really recommend people go check that out too.

John Dehlin [01:55:37] Yeah. How many people could have their ex spouse on a podcast? And like, they're like, we kind of began this way. Not only are you guys still having a good relationship and co parenting productively, you're bringing them on and giving them part of your platform. I'm not sure a lot of our listeners who have been through a divorce have that sort of relationship with their ex spouse. Not to shame them. In some instances, that's literally not possible, depending on how reasonable and healthy the people are. But what a beautiful model to do that.

Drew Manning [01:56:08] Yeah. Thank you. And I appreciate that you listen to that. I think if anyone, you know, my first episode, we focused a lot on the affair. Go listen to episode 100 if you want to hear more about like the, the what happened. And then also episode 101. If you've been someone that has been cheated on, listen to Lynn's episode because her episode is very, very healing. So that you don't stay stuck in that victim mindset for the rest of your life, even though what happened to you was wrong and bad and horrible and, and yes, you have every right to be mad, but go and listen to her. Episode because I feel like it maybe can help a lot of people who have been in that situation.

Guest 2 [01:56:43] Yeah, any. I think she was talking about even just generally, anything that you need to overcome and you need to have grace for yourself, that things are going to go back and forth, that growth is not linear, and just so many good takeaways from anyone going through any kind of. Whether it's a faith transition or a divorce or any person who's in need of healing. I think that podcast she did was, like, completely amazing.

Drew Manning [01:57:04] I'll let her know

John Dehlin [01:57:07] if you want to come on Warm Up Stories. Open invitation. We will have you. We would love to have you.

Drew Manning [01:57:11] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:57:12] All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories podcast. This has been brilliant. This is going to help so many people. And. And thanks to all your viewers who have come to watch Mormon Stories as well. We really, really, really appreciate it, Drew. Drew Manning, right?

Drew Manning [01:57:31] Thank you. Yes, that's me.

John Dehlin [01:57:33] Keep up the good work.

Drew Manning [01:57:34] Will do. And if you guys ever get out to Hawaii, let me know.

John Dehlin [01:57:37] That's where you're moving there.

Drew Manning [01:57:39] I'm moving there in June.

John Dehlin [01:57:40] Okay. We'll miss you, man.

Drew Manning [01:57:41] Mormon Stories, Hawaii Edition.

John Dehlin [01:57:44] How does that sound, Kara?

Guest 2 [01:57:45] I have been trying to tell my husband that's what we really need is Mormon Stories Hawaii Edition.

John Dehlin [01:57:51] We'll work on that. All right. Thanks, Drew.

Drew Manning [01:57:52] Thank you, guys.

Guest 2 [01:57:53] Thank you.

Drew Manning [01:57:53] See you soon.

John Dehlin [01:57:54] And listeners, thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com with any feedback. Thanks to everyone who donates financially. Unfortunately, only like one out of a thousand listeners or viewers actually donates, and we're losing donors every month because people either move on or Covid or whatever has made it so people have had to discontinue. So if you value this type of programming, we would love your support. Go to MormonStories.org, there's a donate button at the top on your mobile or whatever. Click on it. Become a monthly donor. That will allow us to pay for Kara, to pay for Gerardo, our cinematographer, to pay for Brooklyn, our editor, to pay for. For this space, all this equipment. We need your financial support to keep this going. Please become a monthly contributor. We're a 501c3 nonprofit. It's tax deductible in the U.S. we're transparent in our finances, and literally every penny we receive from you, we feed back into this program. So please, please become a supporter. Share it with the world. Give us positive reviews wherever you can. Share links. Word of mouth is great and most importantly, just. Just love each other and love yourself, and let's all heal and grow together and find joy and happiness wherever we are, in or out of the Mormon Church or wherever. So, again, thanks to the listeners. Support us if you can. Drew, take care.

Drew Manning [01:59:14] Thank you. All right.

John Dehlin [01:59:15] And Kara, thanks for joining us.

Guest 2 [01:59:17] Yeah, thanks, guys.

John Dehlin [01:59:17] All right, take care, everybody. We'll see you guys soon.

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