Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1522

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is November 10, 2021, and there are so many reasons I am over the moon, excited for today's episode, one of which being I have a special guest co host today. So normally I have these days, Kara Burrell with me on Mormon Stories podcast, and I adore my co host Kara Burrell. But today we have a special. And I should say and not. But I should say, and I have a special co host today on Mormon Stories podcast. It is the one, the only Samantha Shelley from Zelf on the Shelf. Hey, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:43] Hi. Hello. Happy to see you here.

John Dehlin [00:00:46] Why do we have the pleasure of your attendance today, your participation? To what do we owe this?

Samantha Shelley [00:00:53] That's a good question. Well, our guest today has been a friend of mine for, I want to say, like eight years. And, you know, I'm a big fan of the podcast. Just happy to be involved.

John Dehlin [00:01:03] Yeah. And sometimes care is not available. So I really like having a field of co hosts to draw from when Kara is. Is so famous, you know, talking to the New York Post or other media outlets. I need a backup. So you're basically Kara's backup.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:21] It is an honor to be Cara's backup.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] Now, of course, Samantha, you run Zelf on the Shelf, which is an amazing YouTube channel, and you also do TikTok and Instagram. Am I forgetting anything? We should be plugging just to sort of let people know.

Chandler Roberson [00:01:37] You.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] You and Tanner have new. And Tanner Gilliland have one of the most epic Mormon Stories podcast interviews ever, called Losing Mormon Millennials, which even helped bring Tyler Glenn of Neon Trees out of Mormon Stories and many, many other people. Not that that was the point, but that's what happened. But we also interviewed you and Tanner recently. But you guys are just so inspirational. And anything else I should be noted noting about your awesomeness?

Samantha Shelley [00:02:05] No, that was great.

John Dehlin [00:02:07] That's it.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] It's that typical British kind of humility, which makes me sick. But, you know, that's what we have. You're also recently in the Brit Ventures episode. You kind of co hosted with me on that.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:18] Yes, I did.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] All right, enough about Samantha for now. Today we have a really cool interview in store for you. We are interviewing Chandler Roberson.

Chandler Roberson [00:02:33] Roberson.

John Dehlin [00:02:33] Roberson. I'm sorry.

Chandler Roberson [00:02:35] It's okay, people. It. It's okay.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] Roberson.

Chandler Roberson [00:02:39] Roberson.

Chandler's Background and Mormon Upbringing

John Dehlin [00:02:40] All right, so Chandler is. Has an amazing story. Actually, Samantha, why don't you tell us. You sort of said, john, you need to interview Chandler, and I didn't know Chandler. But once I started to check out Chandler's kind of social media presence, I thought, wow, this is going to be a great episode. But tell us why you thought Chandler would be a great interview.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:02] Chandler has always, even when I knew her eight years ago in college, been very wise, intelligent, hilarious, insightful. I think she has experienced a lot of things. Yeah, I feel like this is going to be great. I think a lot of people are going to relate to a lot of the themes are going to touch on.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] So there's kind of, there's modesty, sexual purity stuff. There's BYU, ID stuff. There's early mission experience, kind of early mission return, mental health stuff, body image stuff. There's divorce, kind of early Mormon divorce there. You also were a fashion, kind of a well known fashion blogger. Is that right?

Chandler Roberson [00:03:47] Days of Chandler.

John Dehlin [00:03:48] Days of Chandler.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:49] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:03:49] And you were even. Did I hear you were like featured on like Good Morning America?

Chandler Roberson [00:03:53] This is true.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:54] Yep.

Chandler Roberson [00:03:54] Was crazy.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:55] And she was so modest.

Chandler Roberson [00:03:57] I tried really hard.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:58] It was inspiring.

John Dehlin [00:03:59] It was, it was Mormon modesty. Fashion.

Chandler Roberson [00:04:01] Mormon modesty. Yep. Like with your garments, how you could be modest still with your garments and look cute.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] So, so there's that, there's, there's dating in the Mormon world. There is. And to be more serious, there are things, themes of sexual assault in this episode. Any other. And there's obviously faith crisis or faith transition kind of themes. Any other major themes that we're missing?

Chandler Roberson [00:04:26] I think you covered it. That sounds great. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:04:29] All right, Samantha, anything else before we jump in?

Samantha Shelley [00:04:32] No, I'm just really looking forward to this interview.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] All right, so buckle up. This is gonna be one of those multi hour interviews, but you are going to love it. So. So Chandler, thanks for joining us. And where does your story begin? Where's your Mormon story begin?

Chandler Roberson [00:04:46] Thanks for having me. Yeah. So my Mormon story, I was born into the church. My parents, my mom's a convert. She was Catholic before she was LDS. Converted in her mid-20s. And then my dad, his parents were kind of familiar with the church and they would encourage him to go but he didn't really start going and until he went on his mission when he was a bit older, so somewhat of a convert as well. So I.

John Dehlin [00:05:11] Where were they growing up?

Chandler Roberson [00:05:13] So both in like the Sacramento, California area.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [00:05:16] Yep. So both my parents were not familiar with the church growing up and then they converted and so I was born into it. And honestly my early childhood was amazing in my.

John Dehlin [00:05:26] Okay, wait, were your parents like temple married or.

Chandler Roberson [00:05:28] Yeah, Temple married.

John Dehlin [00:05:29] Okay. And you were Born under, you said under the covenant.

Chandler Roberson [00:05:33] Yeah, the whole thing with older siblings. Yeah. So I have one older sister and I have a younger brother.

John Dehlin [00:05:38] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [00:05:38] So I'm in the middle. Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:39] Yep.

Chandler Roberson [00:05:40] So, yeah, so we were all Mormon and loved it. I loved all of it.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] By the time you were like a, like a Mormon kid, were your parents kind of orthodox? Were you guys doing all the Mormon things?

Chandler Roberson [00:05:52] Yeah, we did all the Mormon stuff. Except I would say family home evening was never one that we were super good at. And that was because my younger brother had some special. I mean, he has autism, so it made it just a little bit harder for us all to sit down and stay doing one thing. So we weren't really good at the family home evening, but we would spend time together as our own family home evening. But we did all the other stuff. I mean, like baptism and going to church every Sunday. We were always like 20 minutes early, which I hated as a kid because I didn't understand why we had to be 20 minutes early and then three hours of church. But yeah, so we were full believers. We did all this stuff. I specifically remember being a kid, and long story short, my mom's adopted, so we were visiting her adopted family and there was this gumball machine there and my grandma had like this bowl of pennies. And to get the gumball you had to have a penny. And so I remember taking one and using it for the gumball machine. And the next Sunday that I went to Sunday school, I was probably six, and the teacher said, you know, the lesson was on stealing. And they said, stealing is stealing, even a penny. And like six year old me was just like, oh my gosh, like I had a full blown panic attack because I was like, God is watching me. And so early on it was pretty clear to me, like, this is for real. So early on I just felt really committed to it.

John Dehlin [00:07:16] Okay, So as far as like your. The. What did your parents do work wise?

Chandler Roberson [00:07:25] So my mom was a stay at home mom and my dad works in the pharmaceutical industry, so he's a pharmaceutical rep.

John Dehlin [00:07:31] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [00:07:31] Okay. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] All right, so what. Do you have any fond memories of the church growing up in those. Those childhood years before kind of adolescence? Like your what, what the Mormon church meant to you and how it infiltrated your daily life?

Chandler Roberson [00:07:47] Yeah, it tons. I mean, I always loved the music. Specifically as a kid. Just getting to sing all the songs was the best to me. I always remember feeling super happy and having good feelings with especially the music in church. And I just remember my parents always kind of Making it clear like you can like the emphasis on family. I always felt that like my family being close and using, making that a priority. I guess that part of growing up Mormon was super special to me because we didn't have a lot of cousins and close family, but I had my family unit and I felt that was super special that I got to spend so much time with them. And just knowing from a young age that I would get to be with them forever meant a lot to me because for whatever reason as a young kid, I was always so like freaked out that my parents were going to die and what was going to happen. And so knowing that I would get to be with them forever was super comforting to me as a young kid. But I also remember just the fun like trunk or treats. And I'm trying to think of some of the other typical childhood stuff that you do. But when whatever it was, I was all about it. There was like no question for me that it was the best thing ever. I wanted all my friends to come to church with me. I'd always invite my friends at school to come to church with me and they would come and they were so nice. But yeah, I, I loved it as a kid.

John Dehlin [00:09:05] Did you have a good ward growing up?

Chandler Roberson [00:09:06] Yeah, I, we lived in a bit of a more poor area. But I feel like the people there were just so amazing. Everyone was always, I don't know, pulling in together to make things happen for each other if there wasn't money to make it happen. So it was really cool to get to see that.

John Dehlin [00:09:26] Okay. All right.

Chandler Roberson [00:09:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:28] And Chandler, I mean Samantha, we, we've co hosted a little bit. I want you to feel super comfortable just jumping, you know, you know Chandler a lot more than me, so. And her story, because you guys were homies at byu Idaho, right?

Chandler Roberson [00:09:40] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] Right.

Samantha Shelley [00:09:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] So please jump in with any question or comment time.

Guilt, Shame, and Early Childhood Faith

Samantha Shelley [00:09:44] Yeah, I have a couple of questions. I'm curious because you mentioned the penny story. How prominent was guilt as a theme in that sort of early childhood? And how did that then play into your thoughts about baptism? And what was baptism like for you as an 8 year old?

Chandler Roberson [00:10:00] Yeah, good question. Honestly, that moment of like the penny was so big as far as like a guilt thing goes for me because as a kid I was so obsessive, I'll use the word obsessive about doing the right thing. I don't know if it was because I was the middle child and I wanted to be the good example to my siblings, but especially at church it was like I was so obsessed with making sure I was being good. I would have nightmares about. Seriously at school. I'd have nightmares about being sent to, like, timeout, for example. And so church was like 10 times that I always wanted to be good. And so growing up, it was. It was. I was preoccupied with being good enough all the time. And honestly, when it came to my baptism When I was 8, I was interviewed by one of my friend's moms. And I remember feeling like she. I don't know how to explain it, but she seemed like she doubted that I was ready for whatever reason in the interview. And it made me feel super self conscious. So I had to really convince her that I knew I was ready for it. And so anyways, but I don't. I remember them telling me, you know, write down whatever happens after your baptism, all your feelings and stuff. And the only things I remember writing were that I didn't want to wear a dress because I was a tall boy and I wanted to wear, like the full jumpsuit. And then that we went to breakfast afterward with my whole family. Like, I didn't have anything written about the actual experience. So it's weird, but, like, my actual baptism, I remember so little about it happening, so.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:29] So quite a lot of perfectionism, would you say, early on?

Chandler Roberson [00:11:32] Definitely. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] Yeah. I mean, I'm starting to feel some scrupulosity. I don't know if you've heard of that term, kind of religious ocd. I'm hearing a bit of those vibes so far.

Chandler Roberson [00:11:40] Definitely been a regular theme in my life.

John Dehlin [00:11:46] All right, well, that's not fun, but it still sounds like your. Your Mormon childhood experience was something you were really loving and enjoying.

Chandler Roberson [00:11:53] Yeah. I look back on. I think most of my best memories with Mormonism are being a kid and just believing it. I don't know, not knowing any differently, thinking, like, I had it all figured out and I was a kid, so it was nice to have that. Surety.

John Dehlin [00:12:07] Nice.

Chandler Roberson [00:12:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] Okay. Anything else about your life or your family's life in your childhood prior to kind of adolescence? We cover the main things you wanted to cover.

Chandler Roberson [00:12:19] I will mention with my brother having autism, that was always an interesting thing for me because I was taught so many different things about people who have disabilities in this life and what it meant about them in the previous life. So I remember being told that if he had a disability, it meant he was, you know, not faithful or something in the previous life by some people, and then told he had progressed so much in the other life that he didn't need to have a full functioning body and that he would be restored as like a regular person in the next life. And to me as a kid, that was really uncomfortable because I love my brother. I think my brother's perfect the way that he is. And so I struggle a lot with that. But I would say that was the only thing that I ever struggled with not understanding as a kid.

Samantha Shelley [00:13:02] Okay, so the only way people would talk to you about that was either ableism or benevolent Ableism.

Chandler Roberson [00:13:07] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [00:13:08] There's no, like.

Chandler Roberson [00:13:09] Exactly. There was no.

Samantha Shelley [00:13:10] Just a human.

Chandler Roberson [00:13:11] Yep. Yeah. So. But other than that, only fond memories. I loved being a Mormon kid.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [00:13:16] Yeah.

Adolescence, Sexuality, and Self-Shame

John Dehlin [00:13:17] All right. Well, things usually start heating up in adolescence.

Chandler Roberson [00:13:20] They sure do. They always do.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] So where do things start getting interesting? Not that it hasn't been interesting, but where do things start getting complex? Intense.

Chandler Roberson [00:13:30] Yeah. So I would say things get a little bit interesting when. Well, I would say even fifth grade was the first time things got a little bit interesting because I have an uncle who's gay and he used to be a member and he truly one of the best people.

John Dehlin [00:13:44] It's on your dad's side?

Chandler Roberson [00:13:45] Yes, my dad's brother. Truly one of the greatest people I've ever known. He just does a lot for other people. He's so kind and thoughtful and creative. And I remember learning that he was gay and then just having that cognitive dissonance of, but wait, that's wrong at church. And I just loved him so much. And I couldn't quite make that work, but I just put it to the side. So I think that was the first, like, minor thing other than my brother happening as I got a little bit older. However, the next biggest thing would be probably about eighth grade. I was not supposed to have boyfriends. We're not supposed to date, obviously you're just supposed to go to dances and stuff. But I started dating a boy at my middle school and he was somewhat familiar with the church, but didn't go or didn't attend. And so we were involved with each other and became boyfriend, girlfriend. And it was a really intense relationship for an atheist, 8th grade age person to go through. There were a lot of intense themes to that relationship, a lot of types of abuse in that relationship. And the hard thing was is I would blame myself during the relationship for anything that was going on because I thought, oh well, I was under a blanket with him or I was alone with him or whatever it was. So I would be going to my bishop and telling my bishop the things that I. I perceived as doing wrong. Even Though things were done to me and I didn't really want them to happen. And so that went on for about a year. The Mormon boy, he was familiar with the church. He was taking discussions with me once he met me, but he was not Mormon at the time.

John Dehlin [00:15:23] And just to spell. I love to spell this out for non members because the church needs to change this and until they do, I'm going to harangue them. But. So you're how old at the time?

Chandler Roberson [00:15:32] So 8th grade. Which is. I don't know, were you like 12? 13? Ish.

John Dehlin [00:15:38] Okay, so 13 year old girl.

Chandler Roberson [00:15:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] Alone in an office with the grown man Mormon bishop, talking about sexual stuff.

Chandler Roberson [00:15:48] And the worst part was it was like my best friend's dad. So it was really both bishops I had growing up were my best friend's dads, which made it even weirder. And they were good people, but, you know, still.

John Dehlin [00:16:01] And so you're feeling like you have to talk to him about, like, what happened on the date or while you're watching the movie.

Chandler Roberson [00:16:08] Yep. And ask all the specific questions and

John Dehlin [00:16:10] what types of qu. You don't. What types of questions is he asking? Just because I'm gonna hammer this home to the church changes it. So.

Chandler Roberson [00:16:17] Yep, it's what happened. And were your clothes on? Did you touch? Under, over clothes? How long? What types of touching? How good it felt, what Things like that? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:29] And that made you feel what?

Chandler Roberson [00:16:31] Super humiliated and shame. A lot of shame. And mine was unique because I didn't want to do the things that were happening in the relationship, but they were happening. And so I was apologizing for something I didn't want to happen.

Samantha Shelley [00:16:48] Did you communicate to your bishop that these were things that you didn't really want to be happening?

Chandler Roberson [00:16:53] I had mentioned it at one point, saying that I had said no a few times and then it happened. So. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:17:01] And he didn't pick up on that and take the opportunity to give.

Chandler Roberson [00:17:05] If I wasn't alone, basically, I need to prevent those situations by not being alone with young men. So. So, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:17:13] So you went in feeling guilty and I assume came out feeling just as or more guilty.

Chandler Roberson [00:17:18] Weirdly enough, I think I came out feeling like I did the right thing and that I just needed to keep doing better. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:17:25] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] Mormon bishops to this day aren't trained to even understand consents or abuse or any of those sorts of things. It's more just like the girl's got to keep the boy chased so that he can serve a mission. I don't mean to summarize But I mean, is that.

Chandler Roberson [00:17:39] No, you're right.

John Dehlin [00:17:40] Has that been your experience, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [00:17:41] Accurate?

John Dehlin [00:17:42] Yeah. Okay, well, I'm sorry that happened.

Chandler Roberson [00:17:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:17:46] Yeah, that's no fun.

Chandler Roberson [00:17:48] Yeah, no, it was, it was a lot for me to process as a young person. So yeah, that. So that relationship went on for a while and it became pretty toxic. And there was actually a point and I would say this was like my first big moment with questioning the church. Not really questioning the church, but an issue was there was one particular time where it was so bad that I was self harming in some types of ways. And I remember just praying and bawling on the floor of my room and just praying that like I would feel some type of comfort, just any type of an answer. I tried to be not saying demanding an answer because you know, the scriptures say like you're not supposed to provoke for an answer or whatever. And so I was just saying anything like a feeling of a hug because I'd heard people bear their testimonies of such things before of smaller things finding their keys and some are just crying and crying after I had self harmed and just been like something and then just waiting for that like feeling or that confirmation and it not happening and me just not really knowing how to feel about that because I thought either no one's there or there's something I'm doing to not deserve an answer. And I believed the second I thought I must be not good enough to get an answer. And so I think more of that shame to double down and be even better to be worthy of an answer

Samantha Shelley [00:19:09] started there was the feeling bad and self harming. Was that linked to the sexual stuff that had happened?

Chandler Roberson [00:19:18] It was, it was related to the relationship. Just. Yeah, some of the sexual stuff. It was a pretty abusive relationship and there was just things going on emotionally that were pretty bad.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:30] Did you talk to your parents much about that relationship as it was going?

Chandler Roberson [00:19:33] No. He was threatening certain types of self harm if I told anybody. So I couldn't tell my parents.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:40] And did you also feel like, did they know that you were dating someone under age?

Chandler Roberson [00:19:45] My parents, although they were pretty by the book, were really cool parents. I mean they let us have boys over to the house and if they knew we were boyfriend, they wouldn't be like you have to break up with them. So they were pretty understanding and they really liked his mom and stuff. So I think they saw, I mean as a kid too, I was good at pretending everything was okay if it wasn't okay, like saying, oh, I feel good, everything's Good. Even if a situation was bad, because I wanted to protect that person over how I was feeling. And I. I still don't know really why that is, but. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] And just to kind of break this down a tiny bit, like, first of all, I mean, it. One of the interesting things about Mormon culture is that the Mormon Church teaches kids not to date till they're 16. Now, that's. That's an interesting requirement because I would. I would probably argue that from a psychological perspective, it's healthy.

Chandler Roberson [00:20:37] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:38] For kids to date in their teen years, definitely. And to learn about dating and personalities and courtship and. And interpersonal relations and even healthy sexuality, but the church is just like none till you're 16.

Chandler Roberson [00:20:53] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [00:20:54] So.

John Dehlin [00:20:54] So how was it that you were even allowed to be in. Some homes enforce that more and some homes don't.

Chandler Roberson [00:21:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:01] So I could hear orthodox Mormon saying, well, Chandler, yeah, you were having all these problems because you were breaking the church's rules, you know, rules. What would either of you say to that? You. You first, Chandler.

Chandler Roberson [00:21:13] Yeah. I mean, technically, it wasn't by the book. And my parents, they would have said, we don't approve of you having a boyfriend, but we're also not going to make you break up with them as long as, you know, we can see you guys when you're here and you're not going up in your room and stuff like that. My parents were just really trusting of us, I guess, that we were doing the right thing. My parents were willing to let us make mistakes, which is somewhat unique, I would say, for Mormon parents. But I like to think because they didn't grow up as Mormons, they saw it a little bit differently than most. So I guess they just weren't typical Mormon parents.

John Dehlin [00:21:47] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [00:21:47] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:49] Well, I think it's developmentally appropriate for teenagers to be interested in each other and to want to date. And I think the issue with the Church saying don't date until you're 16 is then if you do break that rule, you have no guidelines whatsoever. Because it's just like, well, you're doing something wrong. So it's kind of this mindset of like, well, it's your fault if anything bad happens. It's. It's kind of like the same as. I mean, it's the church's whole perspective on sex as well. It's like, you only teach sex within marriage, so therefore, there's no contraceptive education, there's no consent education. You're just completely on your own in the dark, which makes it more likely that kids are going to feel the need to hide what's happening rather than being able to go to their parents and be like, hey, some weird stuff is going on, or.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] Right.

Chandler Roberson [00:22:36] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:37] It, like, keeps things more in the dark. Like, you can't, like, you're a child, like, you're 13, and you can't just, you know, say to children, like, well, it's your fault because you are breaking these rules. Like, that's just sort of neglecting the reality of being a child and what's developmentally appropriate and, like, what children are like, what teenagers are like.

Chandler Roberson [00:22:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:59] And I can say from my perspective, I was super faithful and orthodox as a Mormon teen. And at thirteen or fourteen, you couldn't have kept me away from the girls. You just couldn't have. You couldn't have done it.

Chandler Roberson [00:23:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] So, I mean, it's fine in some ways. It's fine that some Mormon kids are able to live that way. I get a sense that most aren't or many aren't.

Chandler Roberson [00:23:16] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] And so they're just learning to kind of hide and lie.

Chandler Roberson [00:23:19] Oh, totally.

John Dehlin [00:23:20] And just to kind of suppress a lot and to live this double life, which. Which leads us to the next point of. Of trying to just understand your situation is that you're caught in this cycle if you've got this boy you're dating, and developmentally, you're both going to have these passions, and so you're going to be constantly messing up based on the church's standards. And that means you're going to constantly want to confess to the bishop. And it puts you in the shame cycle, where you're just constantly going back to the bishop and constantly feeling bad, constantly feeling terrible about yourself. But most importantly, looking to the church, it's kind of conditioning. You almost like Pavlov's dog, looking to the church as the way to constantly purify yourself and make things right. And it puts this bishop, patriarchal male figure as the arbiter of. Number one, you're feeling good about yourself and your worthiness, but also as your intercessory. Is that a word between you and God?

Chandler Roberson [00:24:20] Yeah, definitely. Which is so confusing. And my. That first relationship I had with that boyfriend, it really was unique because as, like, as much as normal kids want to be doing stuff at that age, like, I felt really not a. Like, I didn't want to do those things. I really didn't have the desire to do those things because I wanted to be good. And I wanted to be an example to him too, because like I said, he was taking the discussions Because I was introducing it to him. And so in my head, I thought, I have to be the example to him to encourage him to do that. And so the handful of times when something would go wrong or something would happen, it was really confusing for me because I thought I had done all the right things. And so I didn't understand why this thing was still happening to me. But then once again, you put the blame on yourself and you're like, oh, it's because I was alone with him for that period, or I did that thing. And so, yeah, you're always looking for a male figure to give you that you're forgiven or it's okay, or here's what we can do next. And you're never looking to yourself for, like, answers about what's. What's the best thing for you. So.

John Dehlin [00:25:22] And then the third thing that I'm teasing out of all this is you're feeling all this. It's. So. I always talk about, like, sexual shame being part of the LDS Church, the modern LDS Church's business model, because we are literally wired, hardwired biologically to be sexual creatures. And so that's the one thing pretty much every teen is going to end up being.

Chandler Roberson [00:25:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:47] So if you can make a kid feel super, super bad and awful about something, they're going to for sure do.

Chandler Roberson [00:25:52] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:52] And then tie it to the church, and again, the repentance process and the priesthood authority, the church is going to get you hooked. Always feeling like you need them to feel better. And it's just so good for the church and so terrible for individual mental health and.

Chandler Roberson [00:26:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:07] And so that. That leads us to the final point, which is that you're praying, you're told that there's a Heavenly Father who loves you, who's going to be there for you when you need him. And so you're praying to Heavenly Father to just make you feel better because someone else told you that that's what happened to them.

EFY, Modesty Culture, and Body Policing

Chandler Roberson [00:26:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:23] That's how they interpreted their emotional world.

Chandler Roberson [00:26:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:26] And then when you do that, it sets you up to feel like you're, you know, so bad, so awful that even Heavenly Father can't get through. And that's what a lot of our LGBTQ youth and adults feel when they pray to have Heavenly Father take their gay away because they're told that Heavenly Father will, and he doesn't show up, and they. They don't want to live anymore. So.

Chandler Roberson [00:26:46] Yeah. And it's such a confusing feeling. It's just so empty and lonely because you've heard all these amazing stories growing up and you finally are ready to have yours, and then it doesn't happen and it's all on you. So, yeah, it was just beyond confusing and just like, offensive, I guess, to hear people sharing their car key stories as if it was just. They were so good that God helped them find their car keys, you know, And I'm here at my lowest point as, you know, an eighth grader, and I'm not good enough for God, I guess, is how it felt.

John Dehlin [00:27:17] So what did that do to your beliefs in God if God didn't show up? If Heavenly Father didn't show up when you needed him to?

Chandler Roberson [00:27:22] Yeah. So kind of the same pattern as before. I just thought this is on me and I need to do better so that God will give me an answer or will be there for me next time something gets really difficult or hard. So I thought it's time to just, like, turn it up a few notches and be more devout and break up with this boyfriend and just be a better person.

John Dehlin [00:27:41] And again, this sexual shame cycle that I call part of the church's business model, the. The net result is often that it's. That its members are just more committed to the church.

Chandler Roberson [00:27:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:53] So it plays in the. It's. It's harmful to you.

Chandler Roberson [00:27:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:55] And it works great for them. Totally great for the church.

Chandler Roberson [00:27:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:58] Because now you're more committed than ever.

Chandler Roberson [00:28:00] Yep. Yep. So very confusing.

John Dehlin [00:28:02] So how did things progress?

Chandler Roberson [00:28:04] Okay, well, so I broke up with that boyfriend. I finally got the courage to do it, and that didn't go so well. Long story short, there was like an attempt, a suicide attempt. And that only made me feel worse again, that, oh my gosh, I'm such a terrible person. Everything. The bad that's happening is because I'm not a good enough person. So I put it on myself and then just move forward. So I kept believing and kept being active in the church. I loved, like, mutual that activity. I loved all of that stuff. And I just didn't see any issues. Like, I just made everything work until I met. Well, I'd say going to EFY was actually a very unique experience growing up because I went to EFY and it was up in Tacoma because I was living in Washington. And that was my first experience as like a teenager being around nothing but Mormon youth. And it was such a cool feeling for me because I'd never experienced anything like that. I know people that grow up in Utah. It's kind of like that all the time. So EFY is like not Nearly as interesting, I'm sure. But for me it was so amazing because I felt like, oh, this is what heaven would feel like. Like everyone gets each other. And it was such a wonderful experience. And I still never had a big spiritual like confirmation of any kind. But they always have the big songs and the big testimony night. And when they played the music, I would cry because I've always been a musical person. I love music. And so I'd think, oh my gosh, this is, this has to be that feeling that I'm missing. It's just music and that's how I feel the spirit. And so I came out of EFY thinking feeling great. I was like, I can do anything. And I remember there was a talk at efy.

John Dehlin [00:29:52] EFY for our non Mormons is especially for youth.

Chandler Roberson [00:29:55] It's just like a few day program that you can go and learn more stuff about the church with people your age.

John Dehlin [00:30:01] It's like a huge youth conference with like inspirational speakers. It's like a Tony Robbins seminar with multiple speakers for youth pumping music and like dances.

Chandler Roberson [00:30:11] Oh my gosh.

John Dehlin [00:30:11] Inspirational speakers.

Chandler Roberson [00:30:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:13] And the whole point is to make the youth feel like a bazillion bucks feel amazing. The church is true.

Chandler Roberson [00:30:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] Where was your efy?

Chandler Roberson [00:30:20] So it was in Tacoma, Washington. Okay. Yeah. It was such a unique experience. I definitely had some weird. Like there, there's all these modesty rules at fy and basically you have to have skirts to your knees. And I remember I'd worn leggings and I'd worn a skirt that was maybe less than an inch from my knee. And I got.

John Dehlin [00:30:37] With leggings.

Chandler Roberson [00:30:38] With leggings. And I got pulled aside by a leader. And she said, you need to go change right now. And I said, what? And she was like, there's an inch. And I was like, okay. So I went and changed. And then a different day that week, I was reaching for a tray in the cafeteria and my shirt must have come up just slightly to show some midriff. And this other leader just grabbed me by the arm and said, that is not okay. You need to go change right now. You have young men in here. And so I went and changed and you just, it just confirmed to me you're, you're the, you're the problem. And you need to make it better for everyone around you.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:12] And you are a child.

Chandler Roberson [00:31:13] Yeah. Like reaching for a 14 and then

Samantha Shelley [00:31:16] an adult is stepping in and saying, your body is sexual in this moment.

Chandler Roberson [00:31:19] Yeah. Which was confusing.

John Dehlin [00:31:21] And also just. Can you guys make it explicit for those who don't get it. This idea of, like, it's bad for the boys if you show a little bit too much knee or. Or midriff.

Chandler Roberson [00:31:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:33] Can you explain why that's so toxic?

Chandler Roberson [00:31:36] Because it, it. I think it allows the young men and the men to feel like nothing is their problem. It's not their control, everything's beyond them. So everything just happens to them. And women feel like this huge burden of responsibility to not make their thoughts impure.

John Dehlin [00:31:53] The boys?

Chandler Roberson [00:31:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:54] Not like the boys. Thoughts impure?

Chandler Roberson [00:31:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:56] What's that like for a young girl, Young woman? You too, Smith? Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [00:32:02] I mean, at least for me, it didn't feel. It just felt like it made sense at the time. I thought this just. Yeah, of course. Like, I. I need to be a good example. And if they're struggling, that's the least I can do. But they have the priesthood. It's the least I could do is how I felt at the time. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:32:18] It's a great way to have young men, young boys, dehumanizing women and girls, because if they're having these sexual feelings arise in them, like in response to a stimulus, then they're. They can easily transmute that into resentment towards the girl or the woman because they've also been taught that it's her responsibility to help you keep your thoughts pure. And then that, you know, that's like a whole road you can go down. But then it's like, if men are feeling sexual feelings towards a woman who doesn't want them, then there's more resentment. And I just think, yeah, that can get really messy and really dangerous.

John Dehlin [00:32:57] Yeah. Well, great. Again, I'm so, so sorry about that, but that's why we're doing this interview and things like it, because it helps shine a spotlight.

Chandler Roberson [00:33:06] And someday, definitely.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:08] Did you have to do that thing at EFY where in the morning you have to put your hands up and then bend over and. And you what? You just had adults, like, looking at you to determine if your body was too sexual in your outfit.

Chandler Roberson [00:33:19] Yeah. Yep.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:20] Wild.

Chandler Roberson [00:33:21] And it felt normal. That's. Looking back. Like, I just felt it was normal. We were just special. We were.

John Dehlin [00:33:26] And they're looking where. What. What parts of your body.

Chandler Roberson [00:33:29] So you lift up your hand so that they can see if you don't have any midriff. And then you bend over to make sure that, like, nothing's coming up or that, like, your. Your shirt's not too low or something.

John Dehlin [00:33:37] Cleavage. Yeah, Cleavage, check. I check. Yeah, I guess. And you're saying this is righteousness this is purity. So you're loving it.

Chandler Roberson [00:33:46] At the time, yeah, I was fully embracing it. I mean, obviously it's embarrassing when somebody pulls you aside and says something about your modesty, but, yeah, I just internalized it and said, okay, yeah, I'm the problem.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] And if an orthodox Mormon's going, now, come on, Chandler and Samantha and John, like, it's bad for teens to be having sex. And if. If teens dress in ways that are perceived as sexual, it can increase the likelihood of kids misbehaving and doing things that are harmful for the kids. If somebody's trying to have the best faith interpretation of why the church does this, is there. Is there any thing charitable about it, or is it just destructive in every way? And, you know, either of you, it's

Chandler Roberson [00:34:29] a good question, and I don't know if I have a great answer just because I understand trying to teach kids that you need to be safe and you need to be smart. But I also think there's such thing as too much, and it seems to be more in the too much range.

Samantha Shelley [00:34:46] Yeah, well, we. What we view as being sexual is taught. So obviously there are cultures where women have their boobs out and that boobs are not seen as that sexual. So I would argue that it's. It's the whole. The whole modesty thing in Mormonism is. Is failing to understand that. And having girls cover up more and more doesn't. If anything, it can make boys more sexual over things that are not. That shouldn't be sexual. Like, you should be able to see an inch of a girl's stomach without losing it or without feeling like she's making you sin in your mind or whatever. So I think, like, the more we repress sexuality and teach that it's bad, the more it's gonna come out in dysfunctional ways because you're just making something that could be very healthy. If it was just, like, out in the open and conscious, you're relegating it to the realm of the unconscious. So then it's going to come out in more dysfunctional ways. So I know I don't see any redeeming qualities to Mormon modesty standards. And I think it is disgusting the way that it, you know, I know they're not trying to do this, but it is sexualizing children's bodies.

Chandler Roberson [00:35:57] Yeah, yeah. No, it's completely true. I mean, I know a lot of people that wouldn't even put their babies in bikinis because they think it's inappropriate. Yeah, that's sad to me.

Samantha Shelley [00:36:08] You see, little eight Year old Mormon boys, they're allowed to run around without their shirts off.

Chandler Roberson [00:36:12] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:36:12] But then if it's a girl who has objectively just a very similar body to a boy at that age, most of the time that's seen as sexual. Like that blows my mind.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] And then like you said, that makes it. So we're sexualizing young children's bodies.

Samantha Shelley [00:36:26] Yeah, so.

John Dehlin [00:36:26] And especially sexual abuse of children, I think.

Chandler Roberson [00:36:30] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:36:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:33] Okay. So if would tell anything else about EFY before we.

Chandler Roberson [00:36:37] I mean, that's probably it. As far as EFY goes. I mean, there was a lesson at EFY that particular year. And once again, I loved music. Music was everything to me. And there was a talk that basically said, you shouldn't be listening to music that does not. You wouldn't play in the presence of Jesus Christ. And so if you have any music on your ipods, you should be deleting that music. And as a person who was music obsessed, that was super intense. But I thought, yeah, I should go delete all my music that doesn't. I would be embarrassed to play in front of God or whatever. So I went home and immediately deleted anything that was in that category. And I mean, obviously months later I slowly put it back on there. But it was just. I was very ready to do whatever was asked of me. So, yeah, EFY was solid.

John Dehlin [00:37:20] I just wanna know if Jesus likes Rush. That's all. That's all I want to know. And Journey. Rush and Journey.

Samantha Shelley [00:37:25] And it's like we don't know his tastes. He hasn't really made them explicit. How are we supposed to know what to delete?

Chandler Roberson [00:37:30] It's not true.

Samantha Shelley [00:37:31] I do feel like teen Mormon culture is big on those moments of like, overhaul. I'm throwing out all these skirts. I'm deleting all these songs.

Chandler Roberson [00:37:38] Yeah, I'm getting rid of it.

Samantha Shelley [00:37:39] All blessings will abound.

Chandler Roberson [00:37:41] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:37:42] I'm always torn with these types of topics because I was a super obedient, faithful Mormon kid. And I feel like it in some ways taught me discipline and taught me self control, which has some benefits. So sure, we're talking about all this stuff. Like it's horrible and I think there's good to some of it. Learning to not always do everything you want all the time and to be thoughtful and respectful in your choices. And you know, I'm always ambivalent about this stuff.

Chandler Roberson [00:38:07] Yeah, no, it's tough. I feel like kind of going off what you're saying. It's true. It teaches you that discipline, it teaches you all those good skills. But I have to feel like, at least for me, and in some experiences I've had, it kind of teaches you to be two people. There's the person that you really are, and then there's a person that you want to be. And so you can be this awesome, super determined, law abiding person. And then also private use, kind of more secretive, and wants different things. And so I do find, at least for myself, some issues with becoming two people. Because of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] Sure.

Chandler Roberson [00:38:41] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:38:41] And while it is teach, I mean it, a lot of young Mormons do have quite a lot of discipline, but it's also adherence to such arbitrary things that it's like really just teaching you to be someone who values authoritarianism.

Chandler Roberson [00:38:55] Yeah, totally.

First Relationship and Purity Culture Pressure

John Dehlin [00:38:57] All right, well, where does your story go from here in your adolescence?

Chandler Roberson [00:39:01] It was. It was all going really well. I thought I met a guy at EFY that I just thought, what do they call it? Your cow? You have a crush. He lived all the way in Seattle, so I. Yeah, they call it your week. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:12] Oh, Crush of the week.

Chandler Roberson [00:39:13] Yeah, yeah. Also at efy, I literally never heard

John Dehlin [00:39:16] of Crush of the week.

Chandler Roberson [00:39:17] Yeah, it might have been a newer thing when I was there, but I also forgot efy, they do that thing where when you want to go to a class or a new thing, the boys have to escort you there. So they have to, like, ask you to escort you, and then you, like, lock arms with them. And it's really bizarre because if you have too many women in your group, there's a lot of polygamy jokes. Very uncomfortable. But anyways, so I had my EFY cow and he was far away. And I would just. We would call and read scriptures to each other, and I was like, this is. This is perfection. We're gonna get married in whatever, five years, six years. You're always thinking about marriage. And then I met a different boy at my high school and we kind of started dating. So I stopped talking to this Mormon boy and started talking to this guy who wasn't Mormon. And kind of the similar patterns of my first relationship that I had had started again. And he also was taking the discussions. So I thought, again, I need to be an example for this guy. And almost an identical situation, weirdly enough. And there was some trauma and sexual trauma again. And I find myself back in the bishops office repenting for things that I wasn't. I mean, I. It started out that I didn't want to happen. Then eventually, obviously, you're older and so you do want to do things, but then you're Confused because you're like, why do I want to do these things? If I'm making all the right choices, shouldn't I be like free of temptation or whatever? So it got really confusing in that relationship. So anyways, he eventually tells me that he wants nothing to do with the church. And I was super offended. I was just, I've done everything right. How could you not want to be involved with the church? So we broke up and I just kept doing my regular Mormon thing. And then I finally meet my senior year boyfriend and he was not Mormon, but he was Christian and truly one of the best people I've still ever met. Just a super solid person, very considerate, thoughtful, would never do anything to hurt me. And that was weird for me, being with somebody who was kind. And so him and he, he started taking discussions as well and we started to have a lot of, I mean, the flirt to convert. Pressure was so real. Like as a Mormon youth girl, I just felt like I gotta really do this. But I really cared about him, I really loved him. And he would ask me a lot of thought provoking questions, things that I had never considered before. Questions about Joseph Smith, questions about polygamy. And I never had answers for his questions and it would bother me. I'd be up all night thinking about these and trying to talk to the missionaries about, you know, can you give him some like, clarification? And they wouldn't have answers either. So it's beyond confusing. And in that relationship, obviously I was breaking the law of chastity, but I fully wanted to. And it was so confusing because once again I was like, what am I doing? I should be an example for this person. But I really love him and I want to do these things. So like, where does that leave me? So it comes that time where there's temple trips, you know, and if you go on the temple trips as a youth, people know you're worthy and if you don't go, people know something is up. And so I started to get embarrassed thinking what's going to happen if that temple trip comes and I'm not worthy to go? So I was like, we need to be good, I need to repent, everything's going to be good. And so I started going to temple and then I slip up again and then it's like time to get my patriarchal blessing. Oh, I've got to be good again. So it's just like a lot of the same cycle of I've got to get good again, but I really love you and I'm going to keep doing these things. So it was just a very confusing time period for me. And anyway, so eventually he tells me that he doesn't want to be Mormon and he loves me, he wants to be with me, but he can't be Mormon. And that was crushing to me because I wanted to be with him. We'd been together for a few years, but around that time and I feel like if you know the name like Haley Devine, she's like a blogger, she's like a Mormon videographer. There was a lot of videos of her going around at the time and I don't think it was like intentional Mormon propaganda, but it was like this really cute girl and it was her RM boyfriend and it was just showing their. Their story. And I remember her videos going viral and I thought, oh my gosh, that's what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm supposed to be with an RM guy and I need to be taking this seriously. So that like Mormon early Mormon blogger era had a huge impact on me. And so I broke up with him and went to college basically. And even to this day, that's still a really heavy thing. Like a huge thing of regret was breaking up with that boyfriend because he was one of the best people ever. And I only broke up with him over the terms of, oh, well, you're not good enough because you're not Mormon. So that was a really sad, impactful thing for me in my, like teenage years.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] And how did Haley Devine influence that?

Chandler Roberson [00:44:06] So I just remember seeing my best friend, she was super Mormon and she loved her videos and she would just show me her videos and she just looked so happy. Like she was with this Mormon guy and he was a returned missionary.

John Dehlin [00:44:18] And this is a YouTube channel.

Chandler Roberson [00:44:20] Yeah, she had a YouTube channel and

John Dehlin [00:44:21] she had like Mormon.

Chandler Roberson [00:44:22] Yes. Yep. Fashion or more lifestyle. It was more. She was a videographer. So she had these really beautiful, well done videos. I mean, she had one with her boyfriend that she met in high school and then they made videos somehow when he was on his mission and she was waiting for him and then like their proposal and them getting married in the temple and it was just like the picture perfect Mormon girl life. Like that's what you're supposed to do it all for. And so it just made me feel like, oh my gosh, my priorities are completely wrong. That's what I need to be aiming for. So once again, it's not asking myself, what do I want? It's what should I want? And so that kind of set me on that Path of you just got to keep doing what the Mormon Church wants you to do.

John Dehlin [00:45:02] Yeah. One thing that really jumps out, I see this a lot, is people that find someone to date towards the end of high school or in their courting years. That's actually like a non abusive, really thoughtful, kind, gentile or non, non, Mormon. And it really messes up with people's heads when they like really feel like they've genuinely, potentially met a person they could spend their life with.

Chandler Roberson [00:45:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:26] And then they end that relationship because only Mormon boys are to be married or Mormon girls or women are to be married.

Chandler Roberson [00:45:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:34] And then you marry some rando that you meet at BYU or BYU Idaho. You marry them, knowing them for a few months and then inevitably. And you had known this guy for years.

Chandler Roberson [00:45:44] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:45] And you. And you shared all this, this history together, then you marry some rando and the marriage is a disaster.

Chandler Roberson [00:45:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:53] It's quickly. And then immediately you're like, what did I do now? I'm not trying to project that onto

Chandler Roberson [00:45:59] you, but that's very common.

John Dehlin [00:46:00] I'm seeing some heads nodding.

Chandler Roberson [00:46:01] So it's common experience. So, yeah, super bummer. I spent a lot of years crying over that lost relationship because it just felt like not the decision that I would have made. And even my family, they loved this person. He was just so wonderful. And my parents would say, you know, we would support you if you married him and you didn't get married in the temple. And I remember feeling like it was like a trick. Like I remember thinking, no, no, like they want to see me make the right decisions, so I have to like impress them and impress the Lord and impress God. And so there's just a lot of mental gymnastics you're doing that you don't even know that you're doing. And so breaking that off was extremely painful. And it was, it really did haunt me for a long, long time.

Samantha Shelley [00:46:43] That sounds like such a huge act of self betrayal. Like, again, putting yourself, forcing yourself to be in this role of who you think you should be rather than what is aligned with, you know, your soul, whatever you want to call it. Your heart.

John Dehlin [00:46:55] Yeah, totally. Samantha. I'm watching the Vow, which is the series we're having Sarah Edmondson at Thrive this weekend.

Chandler Roberson [00:47:02] So good.

John Dehlin [00:47:03] So I'm watching, I'm watching the Vow. And like high demand religions or cults, that's what they do, is they need to teach you to ignore what your internal voice is saying. And this is an example of the church saying, hey, it doesn't matter what your internal voice and spirit is telling you, yeah, do it. Do what the authority says for sure.

Chandler Roberson [00:47:24] And it's. It, I mean having, I would say the church too, it's interesting because they act like they really value and they love women and all these things I say we love women. Almost every woman I know in the church has super low self esteem. Like dramatically low self esteem. And so for me, dating, I was always dating people that I had. Like, I really shouldn't have been dating, but I thought I was this horrible, terrible person and like I would be so lucky to be with that person. Even though they treated me horribly. I just thought that was normal. And so, yeah, being with this person who treated me wonderfully, it just, it like almost didn't feel right. I didn't feel like I deserved it. So yeah, very confusing.

John Dehlin [00:48:07] Also, let me just ask. So the Mormon church teaches that, that sexual intercourse is the sin next to murder. And so you dated this boy for a couple years. I'm wondering how you like stay sane as a believing Mormon teenage girl. And I'm not, I'm not trying to make assumptions about what you did or didn't do and I'm not trying to pry as well, but I'm trying to kind of lay that down, especially for non Mormon listeners, just to kind of tease out from you what it was like to sort of think about any sexual activity. The stakes being like next to murder in terms of severity.

Chandler Roberson [00:48:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:49] And then you really being a genuinely believing person.

Chandler Roberson [00:48:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:52] And then bringing the bishop into that. Like anything you want to share about that?

Chandler Roberson [00:48:56] Yeah, that's a whole mess. I mean, honestly, I. So I didn't have sex before I got married, so I didn't go to that point. No. And I was never like so much as tempted to go to that point because I really did feel like it was next to murder. Like I knew, I just had, I always had dreams and I had dreams that I would mess up on some level. Like I drank or I'd smoked or I'd had sex and like that I was just this different person and life was never going to be the same. So it was very much in my head. Do not do that thing. So I was not going to do it. But other things were different. But I.

John Dehlin [00:49:30] And that brings us to. We're in this month of like soaking and like docking in this weird.

Chandler Roberson [00:49:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:36] And for people who have no idea what that is, let's just ignore it. But other than to say Mormon youth, along with like probably evangelical Christian youth and others, you have these weird arbitrary lines of like what's okay and what's not.

Chandler Roberson [00:49:49] No, exactly. It's exactly right. I mean, you find ways to justify, as long as it's not this thing that's not intercourse, that it's okay somehow. And you still feel the guilt and the shame. And you eventually get to a point, like, if you want a temple recommend or whatever, patriarchal blessing to clean up your act and go apologize and repent, but you're always finding ways in the moments to like, justify why that was okay. Because it wasn't actually sex. So, yeah, I found myself in that a lot, but it was just a constant. Like, even if him and I would do something, it wasn't sex. I would almost always cry after, like, almost every time because I felt so guilty. And luckily, like I said, he was one of the most amazing people and he would never make me feel bad about it. But I'm sure that was weird to watch, but it just. Yeah, there was just a lot of guilt. I always just felt like I'm a terrible person. I can't ever get on top of this habit, and I'm a terrible person. So.

John Dehlin [00:50:43] And I just. It probably goes without saying this. If we talk about conditioning now. So many semisexual interactions that have an immediate negative association, it's like, do this. It's a mess up. Instead of it being a beautiful, healthy thing, it's a mess up thing. And then you cry. And then it's. And over and over and over again. What does that set you up for in young adulthood? So many experiences that. That are accompanied with kind of mini traumas and many traumas.

Chandler Roberson [00:51:10] Oh, yeah. And as we go on, it's a theme that has done a lot of damage in my life, so that's unfortunate.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:17] So it's so sad as well, because so much it seems that you had sexuality pushed on you in all these ways before you were ready. Like both through modesty standards and then also through these boyfriends that you had who didn't, like, follow consent. And then you're finally having these sexual experiences that you actually want to have, but then you're still feeling like you have to, like, answer to these male authority figures and, you know, God himself or whatever. It's like, this should be a time you should be able to treasure. And like, you're what, like 18, 19, however old you are.

Chandler Roberson [00:51:51] Yep.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:52] Yeah. Should have been something joyful.

Chandler Roberson [00:51:55] Yes, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:51:57] And again, anything about the bishop prying or, you know, was the bishop decent

Chandler Roberson [00:52:01] or, you know, so when it came to that relationship, it was kind of just Your typical process of asking questions and repenting. And my bishop at the time was really my best friend's dad. And so I think he really cared about me, and I think he saw that I was coming forward and not like, having the information pulled out of me, and he respected that at least. So I think that it was the best possible horrible repentance process. But I really wanted to get that patriarchal blessing especially. And so I think he was happy to help me get to that point. So it was obviously very uncomfortable because you're still answering questions on a regular basis about sex as like a teenager to a grown adult man. But. But yeah, once again, I thought it was okay because that's just the way it goes if you want to be worthy and it's just the price you pay.

Patriarchal Blessing and Gender Disparity in the Church

John Dehlin [00:52:49] So you mentioned your patriarchal blessing in your outline. Do you want to talk about that? Is now a good time to talk about that?

Chandler Roberson [00:52:55] No, perfect. And my patriarchal blessing, it was one of the weird, only hesitant moments that I had was just thinking, well, you go tell this guy all these things about you and then he gives you a blessing. Of course he's going to know things about you when he gives you that blessing. So I was so determined going into that to have a spiritual experience because I wanted to believe it was divine and not just. Just accidental or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:53:17] And for our non. We have so many non Mormon listeners now, it's a huge part of our audience. Do you want to explain what. What you were thinking a patriarchal blessing was and why you wanted one? Yeah, just in Mormon doctrine, theology.

Chandler Roberson [00:53:29] Yeah. So, I mean, at least from what I understand, a patriarchal blessing's a blessing that you get a bit older as a youth, not technically younger youth. It's when you're mission age or so, and it's kind of an outline for how your life is going to go if you're worthy and you follow all the rules. Who gives it a patriarch, it's like a steak.

John Dehlin [00:53:51] Patriarch is like this grandpa. Pick your grandpa in a stake, which is a, you know, eight or 10 congregations. He's supposed to be super spiritual.

Chandler Roberson [00:54:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] And it's. I kind of think it was like Mormon fortune telling.

Chandler Roberson [00:54:05] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:54:05] Astrology.

Chandler Roberson [00:54:07] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:07] Yeah. And really drilling it into your head that you are gonna. You're gonna marry another Mormon, you're gonna have Mormon babies and.

John Dehlin [00:54:14] Yeah, well, that's the thing. It's supposed to be like, well, what's. It's just Heavenly Father telling you what's going to happen in your life if you're Righteous. And I've mentioned this before, they never say, you're going to marry a non Mormon and not be married in the temple and have a super happy life and leave the church and you're going to thrive and everything will be successful. It just so happens that it's pretty much always, you're gonna serve a mission or you're gonna get married in the temple, have lots of babies, serve in the church. And so while it creates the perception of just like, oh, what's gonna happen in my life, it's sort of rigid. It's conditioning that's always to the church's advantage to control your future decisions.

Chandler Roberson [00:54:55] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] Through theoretical prophecy.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:01] And you can definitely see the personality of the patriarch in the blessing. Like, I got mine in England, so there was a lot of cute stuff about nature and all this stuff, because that was kind of like the culture that my patriarch was around. But then I've read, like, some people's ones from America and it's quite different.

John Dehlin [00:55:20] And they always say, they always teach you not to ever let other people read your patriarchal book.

Chandler Roberson [00:55:25] Oh, yeah, super secrets.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:26] You're marrying them.

John Dehlin [00:55:27] Because so many of these patriarchs will say the same thing to each person that they give the blessings to.

Chandler Roberson [00:55:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:33] And then it makes you feel like it's not that special. So they literally tell you, don't let your friends read it.

Chandler Roberson [00:55:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:55:39] So that you don't figure that out.

Chandler Roberson [00:55:40] Yep. You're supposed to keep it to yourself.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:42] And have you heard the. The Mormon folklore that seemed to go around a lot of how this girl went in to get her patriarchal blessing, and the patriarch was like, I can't. I'm not hearing anything. And then she died in a car crash on the way home.

Chandler Roberson [00:55:55] I've never heard that one.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:55] That was a big one.

Chandler Roberson [00:55:56] I'm glad I didn't hear that.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:57] As a youth, I really bought into the patriarchal blessing.

John Dehlin [00:56:01] Like, like, if I'm putting on my Mormon lens, I loved it. It told me I was going to be, like, resurrected in the morning of the first resurrection, and I'm going to be like celestial kingdom and a valiant one on the earth. And it made me. It. This is what's hard again, is that it makes you feel amazing. It makes you feel like, God loves you, Jesus loves you, you're gonna have an amazing life. And of course, it told me to, like, obey the word of wisdom. And. And if I would, my body would be healthy and strong and I wouldn't get sick. And sometimes I think that's why I still haven't tried alcohol or tobacco or drugs because, like, I. I feel almost like Samson, where if I cut my hair, meaning I tried beer or weed or whatever, that it somehow it would hurt my health.

Samantha Shelley [00:56:40] Break it. Something to think about. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:44] Anyway, so you wanted yours and.

Chandler Roberson [00:56:47] Yeah, so I wanted it and. And like you're saying, gives you an outline for your life, which I find interesting because I always talk about agency. It's kind of like, what do you want for your life? But we're going to tell you what you are going to do. Like, so really, where's the choice? So anyways, yeah, so I really wanted it and I was hopeful it would hopefully that it would give me some insight because I was just at this very weird, confusing part of my life. So anyways, I go in there. My parents and the patriarch, he. This was his last blessing he gave was mine, and he was very old. It felt like he was hardly there. And so we sit down and he asked me a few questions about my life and my interests. And then it turns out his microphone is broken. So he needs me to, like, hold up this other microphone for him while I'm, like, folding my arms, I'm, like, holding this microphone. And so you can't really relax and enjoy whatever's being said when you're kind of in this weird position. Anyways, so he gives me the blessing, and it was very short. And both my parents are like, wow, that was the shortest blessing we've ever. That's so short. But I was like, that's okay. And so I went through and I. When I. They sent it to me, he had put my. My name was not right. He put a different name on the blessing, so they had to send me another one. And as far as feeling special goes, I was feeling so special. And then I got that and I was like, oh.

John Dehlin [00:58:05] And then form letter didn't swap out the name.

Chandler Roberson [00:58:09] Yes. And as a middle child, I was like. Because, like, any opportunity to feel special at church was, like, so wonderful for me because both of my siblings were just. They just needed more attention. And I was kind of the. Be the good example kid. And so I was like. And I read through my blessing and it was. There was like, nothing interesting, nothing special. They mentioned that I was going to get married, and I was like, okay, awesome. But there was one part that at the time I was so offended by, and it said that the presence of Satan was strong in my life and that I needed to do everything I could to make sure that presence was not, like, overcoming Me and I were being like, what the. Like, that's so weird. And so I was so offended by that. Now I think it's kind of awesome. But. But yeah. And so I remember just feeling weird about my blessing and I had some friends at church and like you said, you're not really supposed to discuss it, but we did. And it turned out like almost all the phrasing that we had for our blessings was all the same. Everyone's was just as short as mine. And it was definitely another moment where I was like, oh, maybe this isn't as special as I thought it was. Because I knew of boys who were getting like three page blessings about, you know, nothing crazy. I mean, I don't know things like you're going to be the prophet, essentially, things that are crazy. So exciting things that make you want to be so good to achieve. And mine basically just said I was going to be a mom. So it was just really hard to swallow.

John Dehlin [00:59:35] Yeah. Women are never told in their patriarchal Mormon women are never told in their patriarchal blessings that they're going to be corporate CEOs, you know, Fortune 500 companies, if only, you know, professors at major Division 1 universities. Somehow that never happens somehow.

Chandler Roberson [00:59:49] What a bummer.

John Dehlin [00:59:50] You're going to be never a Supreme Court justice.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:53] You know, so weird that the men who have just vastly more options in the church get longer blessings.

Chandler Roberson [00:59:59] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:00:00] Women aren't really valued. The men don't necessarily take time to understand them.

Chandler Roberson [01:00:05] Yeah. So it was one of those moments where you dream of your patriarchal blessing as this big moment and it's going to be so revolutionary and you're going to learn so much about yourself and your future and it was just kind of another dud. I feel like a reoccurring theme for me, and I'm sure for a lot of people is you always show up thinking you're going to have this crazy spiritual experience, this life changing experience, and then you don't feel much or anything and you think you're the only person there who's just not getting it. So that's kind of how I felt with my patriarchal blessing.

Samantha Shelley [01:00:33] And it's not unreasonable for you to want to have this spiritual experience. That's why you're doing all this stuff. You know, it sounds like you are willing to take a decent amount of duds, but then at a certain point you've got to be like, come on.

Chandler Roberson [01:00:44] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:00:44] Like, don't I deserve something?

Chandler Roberson [01:00:46] Yeah. Yep. But it took me a while to figure that out, so.

Samantha Shelley [01:00:48] And of course People like believers a lot of the time will shame you for daring to want any kind of spiritual confirmation or special experience.

Chandler Roberson [01:00:56] Yes. Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:59] So I also, I also noticed in your outline that there was this ongoing theme of kind of noticing a disparity between how the church treated boys versus girls. Is there anything else you want to say about that or did you cover that?

Chandler Roberson [01:01:10] No, definitely. And I'll try not to backtrack too much. But um, I remember one of the first activities that I was part of. It's not mutual, but it's like activity days. So you're not quite that age. Yeah, I think you're 11 or 12, I don't know. You're very young. And the boys were doing this super cool outdoor like go karting activity and I thought that was so cool. And then I walked into our building, I got dropped off and the activity was, you are all going to put on our wedding dresses and stand in front of this picture of the temple and, and you're going to point to it and we're going to make a collage for like the special girls night and we're going to show it. And I was again, I was a huge tomboy. Dresses were so embarrassing to me. And so I'm there in like this spongebob bright yellow long sleeve shirt and a huge bucket hat and my hair is just like disgusting. And I was like, I am not doing that. And so they have this video of all the girls and they're all pointing to the temple wearing this dress. And then there's me at the end that I'm just like. And then I just, I wouldn't do it. I just pointed to it and I was so mad. And it was kind of like the first time where I was seeing the boys are doing really fun, cool stuff. They have a huge budget and we're making lists about what we want in a future spouse. For activities we're learning how to cook for our future spouse, we're learning how to change diapers. And it just felt very frustrating. I just remember girls camp was a very frustrating experience because they had all the lessons about how to be a good wife and a good mom and we're just like 15 year old girls. And then I would ask the boys what's Scout camp like? And they're like, oh, sometimes we talk about spiritual stuff, but you know, it just felt very disproportionate.

John Dehlin [01:02:51] Mormon boys go on high adventure where they're like hiking and rappelling and backpacking and canoeing and horseback riding and archery and all the amazing boy Scout stuff.

Chandler Roberson [01:03:02] Yeah. They took a pirate ship out for one of the young men. High adventures in our ward. Like they took a pirate ship on the sea and we never got anything close to that. And I remember if I asked like what, why don't we get to do activities like that? It always got put back on you. Like you don't need to ask questions. The budgets are there for a reason. And you guys still get money. You get money to do stuff. So I wouldn't complain. And so you just learn not to complain as a Mormon girl. Don't compare yourself. It's the phrase, what is it? It's different but equal. Everything's different but equal.

Samantha Shelley [01:03:33] But it's, it's not so weird making you try on wedding dresses before you're even at an age where that would be appropriate. Like it's so weird forcing this adult vision on you before you're even there. And then go karting is like a perfectly reasonable thing for a 15 year old boy to do. But then you're still a child having this adult life narrative put on you.

Chandler Roberson [01:03:54] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:03:55] So disturbing.

Chandler Roberson [01:03:56] Yeah. It just teaches you to start thinking about marriage as a priority from age 12. Basically that's what you're gonna do.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:02] And I wonder if you. I mean, what do Mormon think? What do Mormons think that people outside of the church are going to think? Making 15 year old girls wear a bunch of adult wedding dresses and point to the temple, that to me is like peak cult imagery.

Chandler Roberson [01:04:16] Yeah. And I guess I've just learned it doesn't matter to them, I guess because they're living a higher law and they understand the true meaning of it all. So everyone else that doesn't. Just doesn't get it.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:27] I wonder how it would go down if they made Mormon boys dress up in their dad's wedding suits and point to the temple. Is it just that girls are conditioned to be more compliant in Mormonism so, you know, they assume they have to give the boys more fun things to do.

Chandler Roberson [01:04:41] Yeah. Yeah. It's confusing and I never got a good answer growing up on why that was. And yeah. Just always felt weird.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:50] If this is skipping ahead, then put me to the side. But what. How did you. You said you were a tomboy until you're like 15 or what was the point when you stopped being a tomboy? And what went into that? And how did you feel about yourself being a tomboy in a culture that kind of demands femininity from girls?

Chandler Roberson [01:05:06] Great question. I. So I grew up being a tomboy. I mean, all of elementary, I was super into it. And then I got into. Even in middle school, I would say about 8th grade was when I changed my mind. I saw girls being pretty and I saw the girls at church wearing dresses and skirts and not hating it. And I think that there was just something about it I wanted to feel. So I remember I got to this point where I was wearing, like, a dress to school and my friends would be like, what are you wearing? And I'd say, oh, I lost a bet with my sister, so I have to wear this dress. Because I felt, like, some embarrassment about wearing the dresses too. But I do think that there's, like, a emphasis on being feminine in the church that I saw myself distanced from. And I thought it's something I needed to be better at because boys want feminine girls, you know, no one wants the tomboy girl. So, yeah, I did feel that way.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:02] When I feel like eighth grade is when, as a girl, you really start looking around and thinking, okay, what's everyone else doing? What are the girls that the boys like doing? How can I be that?

Chandler Roberson [01:06:11] Oh, for sure. And it didn't help because there was a boy at my ward and I overheard this and it was at an activity and he did not know I was listening. But he had said to somebody, oh, Chandler got hot this year. And so to me, it was like, oh, I started dressing more feminine and, like, brushing my hair and doing my hair. And all of a sudden I was hot, you know? And so to me, I was like, oh, I'm doing something right. So that was rough.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:31] Probably made you feel special.

Chandler Roberson [01:06:33] Yes, it did.

John Dehlin [01:06:34] Okay. All right. So you got your patriarchal blessing.

Chandler Roberson [01:06:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:38] And again, I guess I'll just repeat, you had the dud of Heavenly Father not being there when you really felt like you needed it most.

Chandler Roberson [01:06:46] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] And then you're excited about this patriarchal blessing.

Chandler Roberson [01:06:48] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] And so that's. I relate to that. Because I was doing everything right. And I just was like, where are you? You know what I mean?

Chandler Roberson [01:06:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:55] And that's hard.

Chandler Roberson [01:06:56] I definitely, like, obviously there are things that I did, like having a boyfriend that people will say, oh, you weren't like, that devoted. Right. Which is silly to me. But the church meant everything to me. It really had meant everything to me. I regularly would tell myself, I think there's, like, that exercise everyone does. Oh, if someone put a gun to my head would I say the church is true and die for it? And I knew that I would say, yes. I knew I would die for the church. But Even worse. I always thought, like, what if the church had told me that I needed to, like, kill somebody for the church? And I would always, like, struggle with that question and be like, yeah, I would. Because, you know, in the Book of Mormon, he kills Laban because God demanded it. So I have to be that devout. So the church meant everything. There's nothing I wouldn't have done for it. I. I loved it. So me doing little things here and there that weren't perfect don't necessarily represent how much it meant to me and how serious. Like we said, I was obsessive about mo. Anything other than doing stuff with a boyfriend. Everything else was 100%. I was there to do it. Exactly right. But, yeah, so when things keep happening that didn't go as planned, I would definitely feel really bummed.

John Dehlin [01:08:08] And that's the rub, because we are literally created to not be able to live up to the Church's standards. Nobody can live up to all the Church's standards.

Chandler Roberson [01:08:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] So we're always swimming in shame and inadequacy. Yeah, for one. And then there's this idea of blame reversal where whenever you can't live up to the standards of a high demand religion or organization, it's always your fault. It's never the Lord's fault or the church's fault. It's always your fault. And that's always, again, good for the church because you feel like you need to work harder and do better and pay more tithing and. And be more righteous and be more faithful and lean on your bishop and your church leaders more.

Chandler Roberson [01:08:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:48] So the house always wins, basically.

Chandler Roberson [01:08:49] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. There was no getting out of it. There was never like, oh, I am doing everything right. There's just something else going wrong. Or maybe this isn't true. It was it. The only answer was it could be me.

John Dehlin [01:08:59] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [01:09:00] So it's definitely a trap.

Arriving at BYU-Idaho

John Dehlin [01:09:03] All right, so where do things go? You're starting to get into college years now, right?

Chandler Roberson [01:09:07] Yeah. So it was senior year and I. BYU Idaho was the only choice for me. I didn't take school. School very seriously because once again, you're going to be a mom, so why take school very seriously? BYU Idaho is cheap and it's where you go to find a husband. So that's what I was going to do. Although I know there's a lot of pressure to get married early. As a Mormon, I never felt like I wanted necessarily to get married young, even though that is what happens. But anyway, so I get accepted to BYU Idaho and I go off to BYU Idaho. And it's the first time in my entire life that I start feeling anxiety and panic attacks. And I didn't quite have the words for it yet. I just thought I was feeling crazy. And then I talked to my mom. She's like, oh, it's just anxiety and panic attacks. It's normal. But I hadn't experienced them in my life before getting to BYU Idaho. It was just such a different experience, a culture shock for sure. It was different than the FY experience where everyone's Mormon. It's enjoyable because everyone knows what's going on. It was a very different judgmental type of environment. But once again, I got there and I was like, well, I'm going to impress all these people. If they're judging me, it's because I need to be doing better. So, yeah, that began my BYU Idaho experience of just. I'm going to prove all these people right and I'm going to be the best person I get to start a new chapter. I'm going to meet a Mormon man and get married and it's going to be great.

John Dehlin [01:10:34] And for our non Mormon listeners, I'll, you know, BYU Provo is the main byu. It's the more academically rigorous one. It actually has pretty decently high academic standards for a US University. It's in Provo, Utah, which is south of. About an hour south of Salt Lake City. And yeah. So BYU Idaho is in Rexburg. BYU Idaho is in Rexburg, Idaho, which I, I probably. Let me think of how I want to say this. I don't want to call it. Well, I guess let's just say that if Saudi Arabia is known as maybe one of the most extreme Muslim countries. Right. I kind of think of Rexburg as kind of like Saudi Arabia, Mormonism. It's kind of pretty. It's really intense. It's super ultra orthodox.

Chandler Roberson [01:11:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:17] Is that fair to say?

Chandler Roberson [01:11:18] Oh, for sure. Even my, my parents, who were very strong believers, both of them did not understand why I was going there. They're just like, what are you. What are you doing? Yeah. Because they were like, this is not. I was always kind of the hippie kid. I. It just didn't make sense technically for me to go to BYU Idaho, but it was, once again, it was what I thought I was supposed to do. This is the plan. So I was, I was ready to do it. And then I got there and.

John Dehlin [01:11:43] And if you wanted. And Sam, Samantha, you went to BYU Idaho too?

Chandler Roberson [01:11:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:48] From the uk.

Chandler Roberson [01:11:49] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:50] If you, if we want to just spend a couple minutes Talking about how intense B BYU Idaho and Rexburg are.

Chandler Roberson [01:11:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:57] How would you guys describe it to non Mormons or Mormons who have never been there?

Samantha Shelley [01:12:02] 12 o' clock curfew, no flip flops as adults.

John Dehlin [01:12:06] 12 o'. Clock.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:07] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [01:12:07] No capris, no shorts.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:09] Oh yeah. No capris.

Chandler Roberson [01:12:10] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:10] Right.

Chandler Roberson [01:12:10] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:11] Well, you could sort of get away with seven eights, but not a capri. Yeah, yeah. No shorts. You have to wear BYU Idaho approved gym clothes. So if a big annoying thing for me was you couldn't wear yoga pants to work out, you had to wear these giant basketball shorts.

Chandler Roberson [01:12:27] Yeah. Or like flared ones that were so strange.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:31] Different kinds and arbitrary.

Chandler Roberson [01:12:33] And most of the housing there, I mean, I don't know how it is now, but there was only two complexes where you'd have your own room everywhere else, which is where I lived. But it was pretty much if you were going to go to BYU Idaho, you're sharing a room with somebody and I think it's overall to make sure you're not getting into trouble.

John Dehlin [01:12:50] So having sex.

Chandler Roberson [01:12:51] Yeah. No space. There's no space at BYU Idaho.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:53] And there's a big culture on telling on people. Like it's really drilled into you that you are doing the Christ like thing by reporting people to the honor code office, which is like the big brother of the universe.

Chandler Roberson [01:13:06] Yeah. It definitely teaches you to be kind of snitchy. Just always observing and reporting.

John Dehlin [01:13:11] And people can get kicked out of BYU Idaho for what?

Samantha Shelley [01:13:14] Oh, anything.

Chandler Roberson [01:13:16] Throw a dart. Like there's so many things.

John Dehlin [01:13:18] Like what name?

Samantha Shelley [01:13:19] I mean.

Chandler Roberson [01:13:19] Sexual stuff. Gay.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:22] Having a boy in your room. If you had a really bad bishop.

Chandler Roberson [01:13:28] Breaking curfew regularly. Yeah. Alcohol, drugs of any kind.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:32] There would also be random things like you weren't supposed to. Like if you weren't supposed to be in an. In a room or your apartment alone with a boy. So if none of your roommates were home, you would see people sitting outside their apartments even in the Rexburg winters.

Chandler Roberson [01:13:46] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:46] Or even if you did have roommate time, the blinds would have to be open.

Chandler Roberson [01:13:50] Or you couldn't let boys use your bathroom if they're at your apartment or vice versa. Like they had to.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:55] No one kept that rule though. Did you know people who did?

Chandler Roberson [01:13:59] At my apartment there was two girls. There was six of us and there was two girls who were very intense on the rules. And if we had a guy use a bathroom, they would wait outside for him and be like, what if we were in sexy pajamis back here? Like, you can't be back here. So they Enforced it at my apartment until they were gone, and then we didn't care. But some people do take that one pretty seriously. Like, some boys that would come over would go all the way back to go to the bathroom and then come back.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:21] I haven't even thought about the fact that that was a thing since I was there, because I even. I mean, I feel like I ran in pretty obsessive circles, but it just was too impossible to have people leave.

Chandler Roberson [01:14:31] Yeah, but I'm hearing things too. Like, if you had colored hair or unkept whatever, you know, appearance, that would probably be a big thing too, but.

John Dehlin [01:14:39] And then what percentage of the Rexburg population is believing Mormon?

Chandler Roberson [01:14:44] I'm pretty sure it's like 90.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:46] I think it's 98 was what they were.

Chandler Roberson [01:14:47] Okay. Yeah. It's basically everybody.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:49] If you saw someone wearing a tank top at Walmart, you'd be like, okay, yeah.

Chandler Roberson [01:14:52] Oh, yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:14:55] And this is the time, you know. So I'm always torn about the BYU discussion. I went to BYU Provo and it was similar, but I'm always torn because, you know, I know. I know people that, like, had alcohol poisoning in their fraternity or sorority or were, like, were sexually abused or assaulted or even raped in their fraternity or sorority. And not. Not to pick on the Greeks. But, like, on the one hand, college can be a place where people get hurt or, you know, bad. Bad things happen. So in that sense, the BYU's can keep you safe and on track and relatively healthy.

Chandler Roberson [01:15:35] So I thought.

John Dehlin [01:15:36] And, oh, okay, foreshadowing. And this is college. So, like, this is your time to learn to be an adult and to be able to face without your parents around adult things and to learn to make decisions for yourself. So I'm always torn. We can always make fun of byu, but there I always have listeners and viewers who write in and say, you're being too hard. College can be awful. Like, this sounds like a really cool way to do your college years. Do you guys have any reactions to that before we actually get into what actually happens?

Samantha Shelley [01:16:10] I could rant for an hour about that point, but it's kind of like saying, you know, if you never get in a car, your risk of dying in a car crash goes massively down. Like, I think the way that you. I mean, the way that you prepare people for adulthood is let the be adults by giving. Yeah. Letting them experiment in developmentally appropriate ways and kind of teaching limits. You know, and the issue with Mormonism is, like, if you have. So, for example, I grew up, my parents drank alcohol. So I had a pretty good idea of what was like, a reasonable amount of alcohol to drink. You know, the importance of not, you know, drinking all the time. Like, I feel like I grew up learning pretty good lessons about how to have a healthy relationship with alcohol. But if you're a Mormon kid and you try alcohol at college, you don't know any of that. Like, you don't really. You don't have any guidelines in place or ways to check in with yourself. And so that can lead to, you know, if people fall out of the belief system that is like, kind of keeping everything contained for them, then it's like, what's the difference between smoking weed and trying cocaine? You know, the, the lines aren't really there. There's not that, like, hierarchy of potential harm and danger. And also a lot of the time, you know, yeah, you do, you do have to make mistakes in life to learn. But also, generally, if someone's really, really acting out in college, a rule isn't necessarily gonna be the thing that saves them. Like, it might save them from one specific kind of acting out and dysfunction, but the core thing is still going to be there. Like, if people are turning to alcohol too much to cope in college, then I don't know, there's a root cause of that that's going to come out at some point, you know.

Chandler Roberson [01:18:00] Yeah. Anyway, yeah, I, I want to say my BYU Idaho experience, although I have so many horrible, terrible experiences stories like, overall, I look back on my experience at BYU Idaho as a great one. I got to spend a lot of time with my sister who eventually came, and my best friend that I have, I made it BYU Idaho. So I have great experiences at BYU Idaho. But it's. I don't know. I want to say, yeah, there are so many good aspects to it. They're safer than other colleges, I guess. But I also think that a lot of people downplay the things that are going on that they just don't know about, because it's all happening, it's just not being talked about. And people don't feel like they can come forward about things because they want to keep that good school reputation going. And that's what's hard for me. I remember I used to be on a BYU Idaho Facebook page and people were all upset because the fat cats there was going to start playing rated R movies, which was unique. And someone had said, we can't let this happen. There's going to start being rapes and, and murders here if this happens. And it's like, okay, murders. Well, I Don't, whatever. But like rape's happening at byu, it's happening at BYU Idaho, it's happening everywhere and it's just not being talked about. So in that way it's almost more insidious.

Samantha Shelley [01:19:15] And yeah, you might not get your stomach pumped, but like the environment at BYU Idaho for the majority of people even, even though I also would describe my time there at the time as enjoyable, it is like psychologically damaging because it is teaching you to be authoritarian in your thinking. It is a very shame based culture. And so it's like, who can say what's worse, Having to get your stomach pumped one time or, you know, being set up for a lifetime of authoritarianism and psychological damage. I mean, you really can't, you know, it's really hard to compare anything. But I, I don't think that the ways it might be protect you overall are worth it.

John Dehlin [01:19:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so, and let's get into it because I just remember when I worked for Microsoft, I talked to a lot of friends from Muslim countries where alcohol is supposedly forbidden. And in some of these countries women dress up from head to toe completely covered. And it wasn't like alcohol wasn't being consumed or sexual activity and, or rape and assault weren't happening. It was just like we said, this culture of hiding and, and a public face and then what's going on in privates where often the dark, the dark stuff happens when things are hidden.

Sexual Assault and Institutional Failure at BYU-Idaho

Chandler Roberson [01:20:26] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:20:27] And, and forbidden and so, so let's get into it. So.

Chandler Roberson [01:20:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:31] So what were the good. I mean, you talked about the good of your experience, but yeah. What are the things you want to highlight about BYU Idaho?

Chandler Roberson [01:20:38] So the good stuff came after the bad stuff, to be honest. So we can, we can start with the, the harder stuff and then end on a better note because it's probably more positive.

John Dehlin [01:20:49] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [01:20:49] But yeah, my first, my first few semesters at BYU Idaho, I just had random roommates and they were all wonderful. I mean, I had some really strange ones, but they were great in their own ways. But one of my fhe brothers, he and I met.

John Dehlin [01:21:07] And what's an fhe brother?

Chandler Roberson [01:21:09] So basically you have a group of boys and a group of girls that are assigned to come together and like every Monday have an activity together as

John Dehlin [01:21:17] if they're a family.

Chandler Roberson [01:21:18] So as if you're a family.

John Dehlin [01:21:19] Home evening. And so they create this kind of arbitrary artificial family.

Chandler Roberson [01:21:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:21:25] So that you can start practicing being a Mormon family. Just doing with your peers instead of children.

Chandler Roberson [01:21:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:21:34] And they even call one boy to be the dad of the fhe family. And I was a dad in my BYU fhe ward. And they call a girl to be the mom. And they aren't necessarily supposed to date, but they can and they do, oftentimes do. But it's to basically have you practice being in a family.

Chandler Roberson [01:21:52] Yeah. And I think they've tried to get away from calling it brother and sister, whatever, but people still do it, so. But yeah, I'd met a guy and we'd kind of talked a bit and got into some pretty bad situations with this person.

John Dehlin [01:22:08] But once we were dating at that

Chandler Roberson [01:22:09] point, then we weren't like boyfriend, girlfriend or anything. But I was spending a lot of time with him. I started to realize that he was a scarier person that I thought. And I was getting into, like, situations where he was stalking me and following me and showing up at my, my room in my apartment. And I felt a lot of shame about it. So I didn't want to tell my roommates at the time, even though they were friends. And so anyways, so there's just a couple instances where some sexual assault, rape occurred. And I didn't process it very well at the time because I was kind of, you know, based on all those other experiences that I had had, I was thinking I was alone with him. And it doesn't matter if I said no, and it doesn't matter if I did any of these other things. This thing happened and it's. It was my fault. And so it happened twice. And I started to just spiral out of control pretty much just like mentally. I stopped eating, I was not doing well, but I didn't have anyone to talk to. And I felt scared to go tell a bishop because I knew if I told my bishop, I would probably get sent home because I didn't feel that I would be believed. This person was. The boy in question was a very kind, nice looking person. And I just didn't feel confident that my story would stand up against his. So I didn't want to get sent home from byu, Idaho. And I thought it would be so embarrassing. I just didn't want to have to go through that. So I continue to think this is my fault. And the situation with him actually progressed pretty poorly. I actually ended up leaving, like in the middle of the night to go home. And I had to just cancel a semester and just went home and I didn't come back until the next year.

John Dehlin [01:24:11] But you ended your first year of college.

Chandler Roberson [01:24:15] Yeah, so I was in my second semester and I just went home early

John Dehlin [01:24:18] because of this Boy, because he was

Chandler Roberson [01:24:20] following me and stalking me and sending me scary messages and making threats against me. And even now it's like. It's like stressful to. And sorry, I'm using the word like a lot, but I just. It's. It's stressful just thinking about it, because I never reported it because once again, I. I didn't think I would be believed and I didn't want to get blamed for it by a bishop. So I just didn't tell anybody, and I. It just went unprocessed, basically.

Samantha Shelley [01:24:47] And you felt that, like, shame because you had broken this arbitrary rule of not being alone with him. And that probably played into your fear, I assume, of being blamed.

Chandler Roberson [01:24:59] Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a lot. And it. I mean, even though I knew it had happened, it took me a couple years to admit to myself that it did happen because I kept thinking, oh, I must have given him some idea that that was okay, or whatever. And I didn't know what sex felt like. So I was thinking maybe I just misunderstood the situation. Maybe that wasn't it. So I just didn't know what to go off of. And then I felt shame because I thought, oh, there was that thing that I was supposed to say for marriage, and now I'm not as good and who's going to want to be with me? And so just, like, internalizing a lot of that stuff. It was ugly at the time, but, like, it didn't get ugly until later in my life because I just pushed it down and stayed at byu, Idaho. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:41] So he. He raped you? I'm so sorry.

Chandler Roberson [01:25:44] Yeah, me too.

John Dehlin [01:25:46] But, yeah, and I was gonna say, where in the world would you have ever gotten the idea that what a boy did was your fault? And I'm kind of repeating. Right?

Chandler Roberson [01:25:56] Yeah. I mean, it's kind of the similar themes as before. It's just if I was wearing a certain thing that would have been interesting or made it so that he couldn't. And that was always the phrase I got from Mormon boys and men is the line is, I just couldn't control myself. I can't control myself. And you really believe that at some point as a girl, that who you are is just inherently this sexual person, that men can't control themselves, so it's on you. And yeah, it was just like all those experiences I had growing up of just like, well, in that situation, it was my fault. In that situation was my fault. So this is also my fault. And, you know, I had that little hope of maybe if I went To a bishop, they would believe me. But then, like, the acceptance of what if they don't? And what if I get sent home? Was so scary and heavy. I was just, I wasn't going to do it. So there's a lot to feel.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:49] It's. It's really chilling thinking back to you being a little girl and having your being pulled out of EFY or whatever because a piece of your skin was showing and that was gonna make the boys have, have a harder time controlling themselves. And then that direct line.

Chandler Roberson [01:27:07] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:27:07] To this situation.

Chandler Roberson [01:27:09] Yeah. And there was always like, I don't know, there's always jokes in different Mormon male circles about girls changing their minds or they said they wanted it and they did want it. You know, they just didn't want to say they wanted it or whatever. And I just, I was always afraid that I was going to be perceived as that, that someone was going to say, oh, well, you maybe just change your mind or whatever. There was just a lot of things that were working against me, so I wasn't. The risk wasn't worth going forward and talking about it to anybody. So I didn't tell anybody for a couple of years.

John Dehlin [01:27:44] And this is so messed up on so many levels. But from the church's standpoint, you would, you would have spent so much time by this point in church educational settings with youth. You're like, putting on a dress and getting a picture by the temple as a youth activity or like making a list of all the attributes of the boy you want to marry, the Mormon boy you want to marry. Why can't the Mormon Church teach its youth about consent, teach its boys and its girls and everyone about what consent is, what it isn't, what assault is, what rape is, how it should be dealt with when it happens, how to identify it. Because this is like the third time at least in your life that it's happening.

Chandler Roberson [01:28:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:31] You know, so that's. Anything you guys want to say about that? There's one other super messed up thing

Chandler Roberson [01:28:35] I want to add. Yeah. The church has a consent problem. And it's, it's painful for me when I discuss these issues and people want to say, you can't blame the church for that. Why are you blaming the church for this thing happening? I mean, there's a consent problem. Mormon boys especially don't understand consent. I mean, the church cares more about gay people being together than talking about rape and the problem that exists there. And it's, it's painful because I know a lot of women and girls are out there dealing with the same thing and have trauma that they're not able to process or talk about. And it haunts you. It doesn't just go away. And so of course I'm gonna be upset at the church and feel like if maybe I would have had a safe place to go to, I wouldn't have been blaming myself, that maybe I wouldn't still be dealing with this. So

Samantha Shelley [01:29:20] abstinence only sex education relies on this objectively false idea that you can just get people to not have sex, that people can just not do that. So then it's kind of a necessity.

John Dehlin [01:29:33] You don't need to do any education.

Chandler Roberson [01:29:34] Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:29:35] And so, like, the inevitable consequence of that is. Is. Is shaming people for the ways they're harmed by, you know, things related to sex.

Chandler Roberson [01:29:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:49] And then the other super mess thing, messed up thing that is true at BYU Provo as well. Anywhere there's like this high demand religion running a university is that you're so. And that whatever happens in your personal life is tied to your education and that there's a bishop involved who's going to decide whether you're worthy to stay at that university. Which is how the BYU honor codes work. You can't go to this bishop as like a support to get help because you're petrified, terrified that. That if you actually go to this person for help, it might end your education, which it ended up ending. Ending anyway. Yeah, but. But. And you were a victim the whole time. And so the fact that anyone's. You're an adult at this point and that you're. You had to be feared that by being raped and you telling someone that you were raped might get you sent home and not only end your education for that moment, but also be sent home in shame where your parents, not just your parents, but your. The ward members and the people at your church and their congregation, they're like, up. We know what you did because you came home early from byu.

Chandler Roberson [01:31:07] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:31:07] That's wrong on just so many levels.

Chandler Roberson [01:31:10] Yeah. There was a lot of humiliation, shame at play that I wanted to avoid, but it's hard. It's. It's. I think it's seen just so casual from a church leadership standpoint, like, oh, well, it happens. And I just don't think they understand the severity of how it affects people because I. It's. I just feel like part of me died. I guess when that happens, a part of me, I just never get back. So.

John Dehlin [01:31:35] What do you mean?

Chandler Roberson [01:31:48] I just feel like before it happened, I just saw like the world differently I had a different respect for the church as a system, as, like, a comfort. But after that, it was just. I just felt really lost. I felt like this hopeful part of me, this, like, loving part of me was just gone. This, like, part of me that could trust that system was just gone. Yeah. So, yeah, you just don't get it back.

John Dehlin [01:32:26] And how did that affect you? I mean, it's kind of a loss of innocence.

Chandler Roberson [01:32:29] Yeah, definitely that. I mean, because once again, I'm thinking while processing it, you're thinking, who's going to want to be with me if I'm not a virgin now? And who's going to want to marry me? And it's just things that you don't even need to be worried about when you're already processing trauma. But, yeah, it impacted me. Just the. The I'm doing something wrong just got super out of control at that point. I just thought, I'm really doing something wrong, because, like, church says, if you're doing all these things, then good things happen to you. And so then I start getting confused, thinking, is this a trial that God gave me? Like, is this something that he gave me? Would he want this to happen? And I just didn't know the answer. And so this was another time in my life when I went back home that I was feeling really alone and just hopeless. And so it was the same room that I'd prayed in the first time when I was with that boyfriend in middle school. But I remember, like, praying again and just saying, here's all these things that are going on, and I'm. I'm trying. I just. I. This time I really need something because I just. I was so alone. And it was just that. That silence again. No comfort, no warm feeling, no voice. Yeah, it was the second time I was like, what am I doing wrong to not get an answer? And then it was, well, you were alone with him, and that happened. So why would you get comfort when you did this thing? To deserve what happened? So, again, I thought I just got to be better, which is hard, so.

John Dehlin [01:34:05] And Mormons are literally taught that if you sin, you're not worthy to experience the Holy Ghost. Yeah, God's comfort.

Chandler Roberson [01:34:12] Yep.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:14] And I remember it being a big teaching at the time that you're supposed to protect your virtue even with your life, which really neglects the reality of, like, rape and consent issues. Like, that isn't that, you know, people aren't all getting chased down and violently raped. Like, it's a complex phenomenon, for sure.

Chandler Roberson [01:34:33] Yeah. Yeah, it was so. But I, like, I said I felt like I just got to be better, I got to do better. I gotta make it all right. So, came back to BYU Idaho again the next year and was ready for a better experience. And luckily the rest of my BYU Idaho experience is a pretty good experience. Like, obviously there are things that were not healthy, but I at least enjoyed it while I was there. So the rest was good. And that was the semester I came back and I think I actually met you. I think it was around that time

Samantha Shelley [01:35:07] did we meet through boyfriend that we

Chandler Roberson [01:35:09] both knew it was Mike. I mean, sorry, somebody.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:12] Really quickly, the boy that raped you, did he just end up going on a mission and doing a normal Mormon thing?

Chandler Roberson [01:35:19] He stayed at BYU Idaho.

John Dehlin [01:35:21] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [01:35:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:22] Was he ever punished in any way?

Chandler Roberson [01:35:24] Oh, no. I, I, and, and I feel terribly about this now. I, I should have done something, I should have gone forward, but I didn't. And there were even text messages to prove that it happened that I deleted immediately because I was so scared of the reality of the situation. I didn't know how to handle it. But I didn't do anything. I just thought, I just need to minimize myself and this will go away. Because I didn't think back then, oh, well, if somebody does it to me, they're going to do it to other people. I thought it was just a me thing. So looking back, I feel terrible that I didn't report it. But, yeah, he was there.

John Dehlin [01:35:56] I'm told that 99 out of a hundred rapes or sexual assaults are not reported.

Chandler Roberson [01:36:01] I believe it.

John Dehlin [01:36:03] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [01:36:03] Scary to feel like someone's not going to believe you.

John Dehlin [01:36:05] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [01:36:06] Yeah. And especially with me, like, having several sexual assault experiences, I always felt like people were going to be like, there's no way that's happened to you that many time. You're just making it up or something. So I really felt like I better just not make it a thing. Don't be a problem. Don't rock the boat. So.

Samantha Shelley [01:36:24] And really, those experiences have probably primed you to accept more of that kind of treatment, for sure.

Coming Home Early and Shelf Items Accumulating

John Dehlin [01:36:32] Really quick, how were you treated by family and ward members coming home early from byu?

Chandler Roberson [01:36:39] It wasn't too bad because I honestly made it sound like I was able to just take some online classes, which I was able to do, and that it was just an overwhelming experience being at college for the first time. And that boyfriend that I had broken up with in high school, he was still going to community college at the time around there. So people just kind of assumed, I think, that I was still trying to see him. So luckily, my experience coming back from school wasn't anything too crazy.

John Dehlin [01:37:05] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [01:37:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:07] Okay. Well, I'm so, so sorry that. And I'm so, so sorry that happened to you. And it's so common.

Chandler Roberson [01:37:14] Yeah. That's the sad thing is that it is so common. Yeah. So to say BYU doesn't have a problem. It's hard to believe that can be true.

John Dehlin [01:37:24] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [01:37:25] So.

John Dehlin [01:37:27] So you go back to byu, Idaho, eventually, and have a decent experience.

Chandler Roberson [01:37:32] Great experience. I had wonderful roommates. When I came back, it was so awesome, so fun. I. This was the semester I started to date this guy who was pretty extreme, and he made me feel like I was not good enough, which was also not good for me because I thought he was right. He would say, like, I couldn't introduce you to my mom because your Facebook picture is really inappropriate. And it would be, like, me in a tankini, like, not even, like, an inch of my stomach. And I would. I would, like, cry and be mad and then think, oh, my gosh, he's right. He's a priesthood holder. Like, he knows what he's talking about. I should delete those pictures. So I dated him, and then he broke up with me. Well, the first time he broke up with me is because he said his patriarchal blessing thought. He thought it meant he would marry someone who skis. And I snowboarded, so. And people are. People tell me that there's no way that's true. I wish it wasn't true. I don't know how that happened to me, but it did. Anyways, he broke up with me a second time because he said he felt like I needed to go on a mission, and if. If I would ever have a chance marrying him, it would be if I go on a mission. And so I was angry. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm not doing that. Like, it was right around the time the age changed so that younger girls could go on the missions, and I didn't want to go. But then I started thinking about a lot, and I was like, I'm really ungrateful. Like, I've had a wonderful life. Christ literally died for me, and I can't even spend a year and a half teaching the gospel. And I really always have really cared about other people, and I thought about all my experiences, and I thought, oh, my gosh, there's so many people out there that have had tough experiences. If I can bring them to the gospel, maybe they can heal too. Like, I thought I was better somehow. Like, I'd healed. But So I just thought, okay, yeah, I'm gonna go on this mission. I'm gonna prove this guy that I'm able to go on a mission. I'm gonna do it and do it for. For Jesus, too.

John Dehlin [01:39:19] But really quick. I think I read in your outline that you were also, before your mission at byu, Idaho, you encountered some kind of questions about the church or its truth claims time.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:32] Talk about that before.

Chandler Roberson [01:39:33] Definitely. No, that's perfect. So that boyfriend I'd had in college, the good one, he had some friends who really did not like the Mormon Church. They would always be like, you're not sharing that stuff with him. And I'd be so offended. I'd be like, well, it's great stuff. And so when I got to college, one of his friends had sent me this YouTube video, and it was a guy sharing his testimony, basically about leaving the church, about all the things that happened, and how his life's been really great since he left the church, and all the doctrine that was troubling to him. And I got about halfway through and I turned it off, and I thought I was gonna throw up. I was just. There was no way that guy could be really happy. It was very confusing, and I just felt. What I felt like was that darkness all over. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm out of control. So I called my dad to say, hey, have you ever heard of some of these things? And he kind of gave me the answer of, you know, there's a lot of people in the world who hate the church, and they just want to make the church sound bad. So that's probably what it was. And I. That worked for me. I was like, sounds good. Yeah. If this church is true, of course there's gonna be people trying to bring it down. So I kind of just like, stuffed that away. But once again, it was in the back of my head a lot because I remember thinking, can people outside really be happy? Because it's always taught to you that wickedness never was happiness, and unless you're in the gospel that you're not truly happy. So it was very weird for me to hear that there were other. Other issues like polygamy. I didn't know that technically it was still like, an eternal practice in Mormonism. Yeah. I didn't know that maybe one day I would have to be sealed to somebody with other multiple wives. Like, that had not occurred to me before, and that was shocking. But, yeah, I said, okay, well, I'm just gonna have to make it work, so I'm gonna Put it aside, and one day, hopefully on my mission or whatever it is, like, I can figure it out. So that was my first, like, head on with what people refer to as anti but just ex Mormon material.

John Dehlin [01:41:25] Any other issues that you want to mention that kind of became items on your shelf besides polygamy, or is that all that comes to mind?

Chandler Roberson [01:41:34] Oh, yeah. So this in. In high school, one of our. I don't know if he was a counselor, but he was also a coach. He was just the nicest person. And he was talking to us in a group once about how Mormons were racist and he was black. And I was like, that's just not true. And he was like, yeah. And he, like, gave me an example of some things that had happened. And I was like, that's just not true. And I assumed he was telling me what to believe as an outside member about something that I already knew more about. And so in my head I was like, that's just not true. So whatever. But I did think about it a lot after, because I kept thinking there was no good answer for why black people couldn't have the priesthood, and it didn't make sense. And so that was also a shelf item, too, which started around my senior year of high school as well. Is just like, yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. And so I put that on there as well.

John Dehlin [01:42:29] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [01:42:29] Yeah.

Mission Preparation and Temple Endowment

John Dehlin [01:42:32] All right. So is your mission the next thing in your story?

Chandler Roberson [01:42:35] Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [01:42:36] Did you graduate from byu? Idaho? No.

Chandler Roberson [01:42:38] Not by this point, no.

John Dehlin [01:42:39] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [01:42:40] No.

John Dehlin [01:42:40] So you're 19, 20.

Chandler Roberson [01:42:43] I think I was about 20 at the time.

John Dehlin [01:42:45] And you're, like, going on a mission?

Chandler Roberson [01:42:46] Yeah, Yep. So I was going on a mission. I got called to Arcadia, California, which was cool, but it was also. It's only like an hour from family members that I have in California, so

John Dehlin [01:42:56] I was kind of Sacramento.

Chandler Roberson [01:42:57] Yeah. Well, I have friends in, like, Palm or family in Palmdale, so it's so close. So I was like, oh, no, I'm gonna run into family. So I didn't like that.

John Dehlin [01:43:06] Wait, so how far is Arcadia from Sacramento?

Chandler Roberson [01:43:08] I think it's like six or so hours. It's far from Sacramento, but I do have family. Southern California.

John Dehlin [01:43:13] That's lame. At least get a different state.

Chandler Roberson [01:43:15] I know. So I was like, well, whatever. I was not happy with it. But, you know, you do like the reaction video, and you don't want to look like you're upset, so you're like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing. Yeah, you're so excited, but you Always wanted to go foreign or somewhere cool, speak a language. So I didn't. So another one of those bubbles that's just burst. But I was like, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do awesome. And so, yeah, it's in my call date. It was like just over a month to when I'd report to the MTC from when I got the call. So it was super fast. So I was gonna have to go through the temple and get to the mission in like a 40. I think it was like 45 days period. And I was once again at BYU Idaho at the time, mid semester. And I was like, oh, so I'm gonna have to cut this semester again and go on my mission.

John Dehlin [01:44:00] Wait, they. They set your mission date in a way that made you have to stop your college.

Chandler Roberson [01:44:06] I still don't know how. I still don't know how to say,

Samantha Shelley [01:44:09] like, this is the date. I'm available.

Chandler Roberson [01:44:10] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:11] But they just bypassed it.

Chandler Roberson [01:44:12] Just said it was like 45 days. I have no idea how that must

John Dehlin [01:44:16] have screwed up, because I've never heard of someone getting yanked out of college mid semester, especially a church school.

Chandler Roberson [01:44:22] Yeah, it didn't make any sense. And all of us were like, huh, that's so weird.

John Dehlin [01:44:25] But you didn't question it. Why?

Chandler Roberson [01:44:27] No. Yeah. Why would I? Absolutely not. I was like, they. It was the Lord calling me there, and they needed me now. So I was gonna go. So, yeah, I was not gonna ask questions. So I was like, awesome, sounds good.

John Dehlin [01:44:37] So you cut short.

Chandler Roberson [01:44:38] You cut short another semester.

John Dehlin [01:44:40] Another semester, yeah.

Chandler Roberson [01:44:41] And in my mind it was, who cares about education once again, you're gonna get married, so what are you gonna. Why does it matter? That's kind of how I felt.

John Dehlin [01:44:48] Bummer.

Chandler Roberson [01:44:49] Yeah, definitely. Okay, so I go home to get all ready, and my mom, you know, takes me shopping to get all the clothes and stuff. And. And then it comes to getting endowed. And my bishop, when he interviewed me before I went to get endowed, he basically pitched it, like, if we were to take somebody from Africa and put them in your life, they would probably think it's really weird. And it's not weird. It's just not what they're used to. Which I find it weird that he used Africa as an example. And then he basically said the same thing. If we took you and we put you in, like, a tribal situation, you wouldn't understand it. It's not weird, it's just different. So you kind of have to look at the temple as different, not weird. And so when it's Pitched to you that way, you're going to accept pretty much anything because you're like, oh, well, if it's for the Lord and it's okay. But I had no idea what it was going to be like.

John Dehlin [01:45:40] And if I could just jump in for our non Mormon listeners. Getting endowed. What's that? So think of, think of like the Mormon Temple endowment as like the baptism. Well, baby's blessing is what happens when you're a baby. That's like first Mormon ritual. Second Mormon ritual is getting baptized at eight. If you're a boy, you get, you get the priesthood when you're 12, and then you get new levels at 14 and at 16. But then the next major thing is once you think of it as like baptism for adults, it's like spiritual college where you get to go to the temple not to do baptisms for the dead, which you're allowed to do as a youth. That's your first time to enter the temple. Normally as a Mormon kid. Yeah, but you go to the Mormon Temple, you do what's called the washings and anointings, which is where you, they touch your body with oil and put, put. They bless you and they, you know, they basically wash you clean through symbolism and oil and naked touching so that you can be purified. Kind of like a baptism for adults. And then you do what's called the endowment ceremony, where you are given the garments that you're supposed to wear, Mormon sacred underwear. And then you make these covenants with Heavenly Father to obey the law of chastity, the law of consecration, the love, whatever law of obedience. You make these promises to God and then he promises you that you'll be a God or a goddess someday when you die and go to super special celestial kingdom, Mormon heaven. And you're given a new name, which all high demand religions do, they give you a new name. And you have to learn these handshakes that are. They tell you will be required for you to get into heaven once you make it to heaven. And so it's this super special, like a quinceanera kind of like second communion in the Catholic Church, but like for adults. But like one of the most special sacred experience. Supposed to be one of the most special and sacred experiences of your life. Now, did I get that wrong? Do you want to add anything?

Samantha Shelley [01:47:45] Well, you also don't fully know what you're agreeing to until you're in there. And they're like, is everyone good with this? And you just. Of course everyone's, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:52] They're like, okay, before we do do this. Anybody want to bail now as if they're giving you consent, but you have no idea what you're getting into, right? Is that what you're saying?

Samantha Shelley [01:48:00] No, for sure. Yeah. You kind of find out when you're

John Dehlin [01:48:02] there because in Mormonism, you're not supposed to ever talk about the temple outside the temple, and so no one can tell you what you're about to do.

Samantha Shelley [01:48:09] Although it has got better over the years. Not just what happens in the temple, but I do feel like there's more com. By the time I did it, there was more conversation than like, when you probably did it.

John Dehlin [01:48:18] But what it actually is is basically Joseph Smith stole a bunch of stuff from the Masonic Lodge temple ceremony, wrapped it in a bunch of Adam and Eve, New Testament kind of stuff. And so you're basically going through a really weird Masonic.

Chandler Roberson [01:48:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:48:32] Ritual with the handshakes and the tokens and signs and penalties. And it feels super. You're dressed up in all this weird clothes and you have no idea what's about to happen. So I'm sorry, I just. We don't explain these things to non members and so there's no idea what we're talking about.

Chandler Roberson [01:48:46] That's perfect.

John Dehlin [01:48:47] So how is it for you?

Chandler Roberson [01:48:49] So, yeah, I. I feel like a lot of my Mormon experience was me thinking, if other people are going to have a hard time with this, I better learn how to embrace it so that I can help other people embrace it. Because if I can't do it, then what do I expect other people to do? So I always took it on that way. So when I went through the temple, after hearing my bishop put it that way, I was like, oh, it's going to be. Something's going to be weird because he's making it sound like something I got to be really prepared for. And so I remember getting my new name and I thought it was divine because it's actually my middle name. So I was like, this is amazing. But then I found out almost immediately that everyone was getting that name.

John Dehlin [01:49:28] Everyone who goes through that, that day gets the same name. And it's like a calendar schedule. So we all think it's like, oh, mine is Isaiah. You know what I mean? The Lord has something I need to learn about Hosea. But no, it's like, what day is it of the week, of the year, of the month? Okay, everyone gets that name.

Chandler Roberson [01:49:44] Exactly. So immediately I felt unspecial. I was like, awesome. And so I was like, this is going to be good. And the lady sits down with me and explains how to wear your garments and when you should wear your garments, which is always. Which is always. And make no exceptions, basically. And she said, yeah, so when you go through the temple, you're probably not going to understand a lot of it, but. And I can't remember what apostle she used as an example, but she said, he said that even by the end of his life, he was just starting to get. So don't feel a lot of pressure to understand everything. And I was like, sounds good. And so we get in there, and you. First, you make the promises that, like, you will basically give everything you have to the church. And I'm thinking, I already do. Sounds good. Yep. And then they say, you know, if anyone wants to leave, and you're just like, no, that'd be so embarrassing. I'm gonna stay right here. And you're. You're ready for it. And then they show you the long video. And I. I kind of liked the video because, you know, you just sit there and watch it. But all I could think about during the video was like, what about the dinosaurs?

Samantha Shelley [01:50:44] Where.

Chandler Roberson [01:50:44] Like, where did the dinosaurs fall into this picture?

John Dehlin [01:50:48] Because they kind of do this creation video where they're showing, like, Adam and Eve in the garden and God creating the animals.

Chandler Roberson [01:50:53] Yep. And it really confirms that they were the first life on earth. So that didn't. That just didn't make sense to me. But, you know, you go through all the handshakes and all this stuff and all the changing, and you're just trying to make sure you're not the one standing out when you're doing all this stuff. So that part was a little embarrassing. But anyway, so you get through. And you get to. I got through the. To the celestial room, which is the room after the ceremony, and I felt peaceful, but I didn't feel any overwhelming spiritual confirmations that what I did was the right thing or amazing. I was just kind of sitting there and thinking, but what about the dinosaurs? This just doesn't work. And so my parents are awesome, and they took me to dinner afterward, and they said, you know, we know we can't really talk about a lot of it, but do you have any questions? And so again, I said, what about dinosaurs? And they said, well, we don't. We don't really know all the answers, but, you know, we like to believe that God, if he's perfect, he has an understanding of evolution and that that falls into place somewhere. So just don't worry about it too much. And I thought, all right, sounds good. These people are older than me. And they've been through the temple way more than me, so I'll just accept that answer. And so over my life I've gotten really good at just accepting what I'm told because just everyone's smarter than me. Everyone knows more than me. I'm just this like Mormon girl who knows nothing, so never asking myself critical questions. So yeah, it was just a weird. There's the part where you cover your face as a girl and the guys. And the guys don't cover their face. That really bothered me. But once again, you don't say anything about it. And knowing that my future husband was going to get to hear my name, but I wouldn't get to hear his name really bothered me too. And being told that I would be a goddess or whatever or to my husband that I wasn't get to be whatever. It's only if I got married to a husband that I would get to be in the highest degree of heaven. That bothered me too, but didn't say anything about that.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:49] Did you have any moments of fear while it was happening or like a kind of like moment where you zoom out and you're like, this does seem really cool to me.

Chandler Roberson [01:52:58] It was as soon as the chanting started.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:00] Yeah, for me too. It's visceral when people chant that for some reason.

Chandler Roberson [01:53:05] Reason just made me really uncomfortable. Especially with the face covering. Yeah. Didn't know. Didn't know how to process that.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:13] Did you walk away feeling disappointed overall?

Chandler Roberson [01:53:16] Yeah, definitely. It was one. Again, that same experience where I'm gonna go to this thing that I thought is going to be this wonderful spirit spiritual experience my entire life. I'm going to be changed by this thing. And then going in with just feeling the same, I guess, like I didn't feel this confirmation. I didn't feel amazing. And yet I'd done all this work to be perfect enough to get to that level. And yet I still wasn't feeling it. So I felt a bit confused. But yeah, I did feel let down. I did feel like I didn't get the experience I was hoping for.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:46] Just one thing after another. People telling you your whole life that it's this magical special experience and your expectations are like somewhat minimized. It doesn't sound like you were ever expecting some crazy heavens opening up experience, but just looking for like the bare minimum.

Chandler Roberson [01:54:00] Yeah, just like that it would be.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:02] And then every single time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:05] Because you're told this is literally the house of the Lord where the Lord dwells. So you think, if I'm ever going to get if God. Okay, God didn't show. Heavenly Father didn't show up for me in the past, but, like, he'll show up for me here because I'm pure and in his. In his house.

Chandler Roberson [01:54:19] Exactly. And so I didn't get it. I do remember thinking, this is as close as what it's supposed to feel like. So maybe I need to, you know, I'm going on this mission, and then when I come back after, I'll have it, because I'll be confirmed that I did the right thing finally. So I kept putting it off. Like, it'll just be later. It'll just be later once I've done the right thing.

John Dehlin [01:54:40] Well, how'd that go? Is that all about the temple? Anything else?

Chandler Roberson [01:54:43] Yeah, it was. It's pretty brief. So, yeah, that was my temple.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:46] How'd you like the garments, Karenessa Terror?

Chandler Roberson [01:54:50] Well, those are maybe the better ones, but my I. I am weird about how clothes fit on my body, and I just have some sensory stuff about wearing layers. And so it drove me crazy. The garments drove me crazy. And then when I went on my mission, there was the biggest heat wave that California had had in years. And so it was almost a hundred at night, and just sweating with these garments on was miserable. So the garment experience was not good. But my modesty blog, which we'll talk about later, is kind of how I tried to make that work. But, yeah, so my mission, I was not there for very long. I was there for maybe a total of month and a half, including the mtc. And so I get to the mtc and I'm so excited. I was so pumped. And I loved my companion in the mtc. I was like, I'm ready for this. And I really loved my whole experience. I thought I was prepared. I felt great. Well, the only bad thing that happened in the MTC was there was like a neurovirus going around, and I have a paralyzing fear of throwing up. And I got the virus, and so I was throwing up in the mtc, and they made me come out into, like, the main area in the sunshine to get a blessing from one of the elders in our district. And that felt really embarrassing. But other than that, I really liked my MTC experience. It was very short two weeks, right? Yeah, it was. Well, no, so mine was just over a week because it was when they were really starting to move everyone through. It was the. Every member a missionary push. When I was there, we had the big thing at the Marriott center where all the apostles and the prophet came and Spoke and we got to sing for them. So I was like, right in front of them. I was on LDS.org's main page. Actually, they had me in the picture. It was.

John Dehlin [01:56:27] Are you a singer? You like singing?

Chandler Roberson [01:56:28] Oh, no, I just sang. Cause I wanted to be close to the apostles at the time. I was like, yeah, this is awesome. David Bednar gave us a thumbs up. And I was like, oh, this is so cool.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:36] Sweet.

Chandler Roberson [01:56:37] So embarrassing. Now I'm like, with David Bednar. But yeah, so. So, yeah, it was kind of this really cool time to be in the mtc, because there was this huge push for members to start helping more. And I thought, this is going to be amazing. I had no anxiety in the mtc, so I was like, my anxiety is cured. Like, I went off my Lexa Pro, and I was, this is amazing. This is the answer. So I felt so excited.

Mission Experience and Mental Health Struggles

John Dehlin [01:56:59] Okay, so I'm just going to note now sometimes there's biological depression. So we don't want to say your use of SSRIs was necessarily situational, but I don't think this is. We. We've made this explicit. So your. Your experiences growing up possibly left you in a depressed state that you needed SSRIs.

Chandler Roberson [01:57:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:21] Just to kind of survive Mormonism, for sure.

Chandler Roberson [01:57:23] When I got to byu, Idaho is when my anxiety and depression was really intense. So I actually got on it around then and then after the sexual assault and in college, it was definitely safe for me just to stay on it. So it was right before I went on my mission that I was like, I'm ready to get off of this, because I think that my mission's gonna make me better. It's kind of what I thought.

John Dehlin [01:57:44] Sorry.

Chandler Roberson [01:57:45] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:45] Why do you think you had that alleviation of anxiety in the mtc?

Chandler Roberson [01:57:49] I think I was just on a spiritual high, I guess, is what I would refer to. Like, I just felt like I was in the right place at the right time, and I was just distracted by how much stuff there was to do. I didn't have time to be sad or whatever. It was like I was nervous, but I felt like I was really making my family proud. And I felt like I was doing that thing that would get me that spiritual confirmation. So I think it was just a spiritual high. And obviously, like I said, I was only out there for a short period of time, so it didn't last for very long. And it only lasted in the mtc because as soon as I got into the field, it was overwhelming. It was so scary. So, yeah, as soon As I got into the field, having to tell wonderful adult people that they need to be baptized into a different church and that they're wrong because our church is the one true church. And how caused so much anxiety in me immediately, it was people that were so wonderful. I mean, I had such good conversations with some of these non members and. And less active members that we were teaching, and it would just. My anxiety would feel, like, so big, and I would always think I was gonna throw up, so I would have to, like, run to a bathroom or get out of the room really quickly. And it's really hard to teach a lesson when you're constantly thinking, I'm gonna throw up. I'm gonna. I can't do this. And so I was having, you know, five or six of those panic attacks a day on my mission, and I just couldn't get a handle on it. And so I think I kind of panicked. And I was like, I am not an effective missionary if I'm out here feeling like this. And I knew I could have pushed through and just kept going, which is pretty much what I did with everything else. But for some reason, I was like, I think I'm supposed to go home and help people that have anxiety and depression to, like, know that they're so capable and they can be a missionary in their everyday life. So I told my mission president, I was like, I think. I think I need to leave. And he didn't really try to convince me too much to stay, which was interesting. He was kind of like, well, if you think that's what you need to do, let's have you do that then. And then they bought the ticket literally overnight. And the next day they were like, all right, you need to be at the airport at 12. I was like, oh, damn. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:59:58] Wow.

Chandler Roberson [01:59:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:59] So, because I've had other people on more stories where the mission president's like, don't go home. Yeah, you gotta stay.

Chandler Roberson [02:00:05] And most people, I think that's their experience. So when. When they're.

John Dehlin [02:00:08] Even if they're suicidal.

Chandler Roberson [02:00:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:10] You know.

Chandler Roberson [02:00:10] Oh, yeah. One of my close friends had a pretty traumatic experience on their mission, and the mission president was very. They didn't let them go home, basically. So I know that's the most regular thing. And I was. I guess when it happened to me, I was thinking, yeah, if he's not pushing back, that's exactly what's supposed to happen. So this is all part of the plan. This is all going to be okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:30] Really quickly, when the Mormon church. This was a really important moment Thomas S. Monson was prophet. And they did two things. They. They lowered the. Well, three, they lowered the age of Mormon men from 19 to 18 because too many people were. Too many Mormon men were not going on missions because they do a year of college and then decide they didn't want to go on missions. So they lowered the age to 18, and then they lowered the age for. For women from 21 to 19, which was second major deal. And previous to that, within Mormon culture, women were, you know, so like, missions are optional. Go if you can't find a husband while you're at BYU or if you really feel called, but otherwise your job is to get married and have babies, not to go on a mission. That as the church was hemorrhaging members and losing missionaries, then they started encouraging all young women who are worthy to start going on missions. And the only reason I'm mentioning all that is because it almost doubled the mission size temporarily.

Chandler Roberson [02:01:34] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:35] But also it tripled the number of early return missionaries because there has been this massive wave of early return missionaries ever since, of people that just never really wanted to go, shouldn't have gone, had no business going, and they went. So you would have been one of many. I would guess up to a third of the missionaries who went to your mission would have gone home early.

Chandler Roberson [02:01:56] Yeah, there were definitely a lot of people that I knew of that that went home early. And it was. So when they made that announcement about the age change, I remember it was during. It was during. Not general conference. I think it was like a. Like a priesthood session or something. Something other than actual general conference. But I remember my friend calling me and being like, does this make you want to go on a mission? And I was like, no. At the time, I was like, absolutely no. I have no interest in that. And obviously my desire to, like, serve the Lord and help other people eventually is what got me there. But everyone in the mtc, that was when they said, you know, stand up and say why you came out. It was, oh, the age changed. You know, age changed. So it was a huge push. And I completely believe that a lot of people were just not ready for that. They just felt like it was the right thing to do. And I know that's kind of what I got caught up in. But coming home was super scary because you've only been gone for, you know, you have everyone stand up in your ward for you when you leave and they sing with you and they send you off and then you come back. It's a very uncomfortable experience because because they think that you've done something wrong, they expect that you've sinned or there was something you hadn't fully repented of before. So they're looking at you like, why are you here? I mean, I had people say that, why are you here? And it was super embarrassing because in

John Dehlin [02:03:02] Mormon culture, if you lie to your bishop to go on your mission and you've had sex or even like petting or, you know, touching body parts with another person and you hide it and lie about it, there's this pressure cooker in the MTC or on your mission where it's like, if you haven't repented for everything.

Chandler Roberson [02:03:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:19] And then you, like, are pressured to confess out of guilt. Then you confess, they send you home.

Chandler Roberson [02:03:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:24] And so anyone who returns early, there's this broad general assumption that you must have not like you said.

Chandler Roberson [02:03:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:30] And I'm just trying to explain this to the non members. You must have had sex with someone and didn't repent. And given what you had been through already.

Chandler Roberson [02:03:36] Yeah, it was a lot. And interestingly enough, so when I had my interview with my stake president to go on my mission, you know, you interview with him before you get the approval for your papers and all that, I. It was a weird experience. First off, I was sitting in the chair and there was his secretary there, and he said, I need to set you up with my grandson. And this is just some random old guy that's a secretary and I'm in there for a mission interview. He's like, I need to set you up with my grandson. I'm thinking, what are you going off of? Like, this is weird. He was like, oh, what are you here for? I said, you know, mission interview. And he said, okay, well, you guys should go out, and if it doesn't work out, you can still go like it was to him. That's more of my priority. And I never met his grandson, but it was a weird experience. And so I get into the interview with my stake president, and he was not one of those warm and fuzzy ones at byu, Idaho. He was intense, and he was grilling me and saying, are you sure there's not something that you haven't repented of? Are you sure there's. Are you sure you're ready for this? And he just kept repeating it over and over as if he knew something that I didn't. And so I started to panic because I was like, is he referring to, you know, the rape situation? I was thinking, maybe he knows something about this. And I was so ashamed and so worried that it would impact my mission. It was a time that I lied. I said, no, there's nothing else. There's nothing else. And he just said, I just want to make sure that you're ready. I just. I don't know. I just feel off. And I was just like, I feel ready. He said, okay, well, if you say that, okay, I'm gonna trust you. And I cried. So all the way back to my apartment after. And I remember my roommates and their boyfriends that were there were like, that's not normal. I don't think that's normal for someone to say. Because he had said, if you have any sins that you haven't repented of or you have repented of already, you need to tell me them again. I was like, that's. That seemed weird. I'd never heard that before. I thought, if it's been forgiven, it's been forgiven. So it just didn't make any sense to me. So. So I did have to rehash some of my previous ones, but I didn't bring up the. The other situation. So I left that feeling guilty. I felt like I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough to go on a mission. The stake president, who's this really powerful close to God figure, just felt it. He feels that I'm not ready. So that was a hard way to get sent off.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:46] Although you didn't lie because it was rape.

Chandler Roberson [02:05:48] Right.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:49] Like, you shouldn't. And I know that now it's telling that you thought that it was a lie. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:54] And do you think that when we think about your early return, do you think maybe that was hanging over you subconsciously?

Chandler Roberson [02:06:00] It did a little bit.

John Dehlin [02:06:01] You weren't worthy to be there.

Chandler Roberson [02:06:02] It did a little bit. Because I wondered if that's why I was having the anxiety. But then I kept just trying to turn it into a positive thing and saying, yeah, if there's people here that have anxiety, that's who I need to help. Because unless reframe.

John Dehlin [02:06:15] Well, it's actually quite healthy.

Chandler Roberson [02:06:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:17] I mean, it is a normal psychological situation. Situation.

Chandler Roberson [02:06:19] In some way. It kind of worked because people. There was a lot of, like, rumors and murmuring going on at church. And I would hear about it, people saying things about me. So I thought next fast and testimony meeting, which was like, the next weekend, I was gonna get up, bear my testimony about there being a plan and my anxiety and just knowing that if you have anxiety, you can still be, like a wonderful missionary, even if you can't be an Actual missionary. And so I kind of cleared it up and I didn't hear too much much after that. And I felt like at that point it seemed like a really good place to be. And then basically was ready to go back to byu, Idaho again when the next semester was going to start. So didn't even skip a beat really.

John Dehlin [02:07:00] So not a ton of shame for going home early.

Chandler Roberson [02:07:02] There wasn't for like the first like week or two. There was a lot because like I said, I sat in, in church and I had people staring at me and then they said, why are you here? Yeah, what are you doing?

John Dehlin [02:07:12] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [02:07:13] And so, and I, I'd heard people said that oh maybe Chandler had had sex with her that boyfriend or whatever it was. So I'd heard people saying things so I knew it was a topic and I did feel really embarrassed. But I think it was a weird point in my life where I thought I'm not going to let that get to me because I want to be a really great representative of Christ and Christ would do this thing instead. So I tried to channel that.

John Dehlin [02:07:36] All right.

Chandler Roberson [02:07:37] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:07:38] I feel like you've always, it sounds like you've always been kind of an open minded person and like you said, you always felt like other people knew more than you.

Chandler Roberson [02:07:47] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:07:48] Which in, in some ways is a good quality to have like being willing to accept that everyone kind of has wisdom that they could give you. And I feel like it would be so anxiety inducing to be on a mission as that personality type.

Chandler Roberson [02:08:00] Oh my gosh.

Samantha Shelley [02:08:01] Telling these adults what they should do.

Chandler Roberson [02:08:03] Yeah. And wonderful people too. People that were so service driven and just so accepting of us and so willing to make us comfortable in any way possible. And they would say, you know, we're happy to have you here. We just don't, I just don't want to talk about the church. We just like having you here and us finding ways to still sprinkle it in anyways and then still being respectful of us. I mean. But my companion was intense, my trainer, she was like, she was like, here's the list of do not contact and we're going to go contact all of them today. She was really intense. So my experience was hectic. But yeah, it was stressful to have that feeling of just people know themselves. Why am I here as like a 18 or 20 year old, you know, whatever telling them how to live their life when I don't even know, like I don't even have all the answers. So it felt, I felt like a fraud, I guess. Yeah, I felt Fake.

Samantha Shelley [02:08:52] Also I wonder how it must be quite different not having been because Mormon boys, they're three years old and they're singing I hope they call me on a mission. And they're doing these positive visualizations throughout their life of how they're going to make it through their mission. But then I want, I wonder how it would have been not thinking you ever would go on a mission and then suddenly you're doing it and yeah,

Chandler Roberson [02:09:14] I think it just made me feel like I was going to be that much better and that much more worthy to be with an awesome priesthood good leader. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:23] Also you said something earlier about how they started encouraging women to go but there what there was still, there is still that distinction. Right. Where with men it's like you, you should should go. But then with women it's like if you want to, you can.

John Dehlin [02:09:35] I don't know.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:36] They don't require it of women even now in the same way of men, do they?

Chandler Roberson [02:09:40] I don't think so.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:41] I don't think they do. It's still kind of.

Chandler Roberson [02:09:43] There's maybe more of a pressure for women just because they. We've put it on ourselves for some reason. But yeah, I don't think it's like looked down on as a girl. If you didn't go the same way it would be for a guy, I think.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:55] Yeah. And like I wonder if that played into your mission presidents. I mean I'm sure it's just personality dependent too.

Chandler Roberson [02:10:00] But he was a, he was a good person. I liked my mission president, luckily.

John Dehlin [02:10:05] And I do want to just re highlight something I've already highlighted which is one thing a high demand religion really has to do. And this is again from the vow. They need to get you to get comfortable suppressing your inner voice and doing things you're uncomfortable with.

Chandler Roberson [02:10:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:10:18] Because that's how they gain undue influence. In this case you, it sounds like, unless you created this narrative after, it sounds like you knew that you were going to tell these people in California that they weren't doing life right.

Chandler Roberson [02:10:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:33] And that you, a 20 year old girl, you know, Mormon girl knew how they, these grown ass adults. Sorry, I didn't mean to swear. You knew how these other grown adults should be l living their lives and that that felt wrong to you. That that felt something isn't right about that.

Chandler Roberson [02:10:50] Right.

John Dehlin [02:10:50] And. And if, if Mormonism's working as it's designed, you would have packed that down and said nope, the problem's me, not, not the gospel. And you would have learned to pack that down and ignore it and just keep telling people that they're living the wrong life and that your. Your life is right.

Chandler Roberson [02:11:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:08] And there's always this weird IR irony of like these 19, 20 year old boys and girls who haven't don't know the first thing about real life.

Chandler Roberson [02:11:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:15] Telling 40, 50, 60 year olds what. What. How they need to be living. It's a real irony. But your inner voice was telling you.

Chandler Roberson [02:11:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:24] That there's something wrong about. And that's why you were having anxiety and depression.

Chandler Roberson [02:11:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:28] Is because you knew somewhere that that was wrong. But you probably, you probably weren't paying attention to listening to that inner voice because that's not a Mormon's job to really listen to their inner voice. Now, I'm not trying to project all that onto you.

Chandler Roberson [02:11:43] Exactly right, though. That's exactly how I see it now. Because you know, on paper, when you're in the MTC and you're like kind of playing missionary, you know, you're pretending to teach people and you have fake investigators. It's just a different experience than actually going into the real world and doing that thing and seeing their faces and knowing these people. I mean, I even read my mission journals now and I just have so many funny things, questions, and they're like, how can I teach people if they don't want to be taught? Like, how can I still be a good friend to them? Like what? It just. There was so many things that I was struggling with that I thought that was just default anxiety, when really it was. I knew that it wasn't right. I knew that wasn't a good thing to do. I mean, my brain wasn't even fully developed and I was trying to tell. There was one particular investigator we had, and she had some serious mental health issues. She was not very stable. And my companion was pushing me to get her to be baptized. And she, she clearly didn't understand the gospel. She clearly, she just wanted somebody to talk to. And I would push to my companion, say, like, let's just be a friend to her. And that's not how the mission works. You drop people if they're not interested. And that just felt so uncomfortable to me. So, yeah, I just thought, I'm just not strong enough. And this anxiety is, is, is getting in the way. So how can I be a good missionary if I feel this all the time? I got to do it on my own terms. Because the other thing that I felt on my mission was if I feel overwhelmed, I can listen to music or I can sleep in a little Bit or I can take a walk or whatever it is. And on your mission, there's just that sink. Like, that realization sinks in pretty fast that I'm not gonna have that for, you know, a year and a half. Like, I'm not gonna get to listen to whatever music I want to listen to. Or if I'm overwhelmed, I can't just sit down and watch a movie. Like, I'm. I'm working basically for. For that long with anxiety. So it just. Just became clear to me that there was no way I was going to be able to do it, but that I had to make it work some other way.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:30] It's also interesting how your conditioning as a Mormon woman to always assume that other people know more than you kind of worked against the mission program for you because you were like, who am I to tell these people stuff.

Chandler Roberson [02:13:42] Yeah. And I think I tried to picture Christ a lot of the time, too, and I couldn't picture Christ doing it either, which was the funny thing. I couldn't imagine him just. Just going in and asking all these people to change their entire lives. I just thought it would be more simple. He would have just sat with them. He would have been a friend to them. And I didn't feel like that's what I got to do. And I knew if I was doing it on my own terms, I could be more Christ, like. But also, that still didn't make any sense to me at the time because Christ is the center of the church. Right. It's, like, in the name. So it didn't make sense.

John Dehlin [02:14:12] And one of the first revelations Joseph Smith reportedly ever received was that all of the. The creeds of all the other religions were an abomination to God.

Chandler Roberson [02:14:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:21] Like, literally, that is my religious tolerance. So you. You have to tell someone if they're a devout, happy, healthy Catholic or evangelical Christian or Muslim. It's like you're in the wrong. Corrupt, bad.

Chandler Roberson [02:14:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:33] You know, Abominable church. Join the true church.

Chandler Roberson [02:14:36] Yeah. It's so. It's so awkward when someone asks you, why is my baptism not valid? Why is my belief not valid? Why is yours any better? Because I think it is because someone told me it is. Yeah. Like, some. It just didn't make sense. It felt so uncomfortable.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:50] It's like you didn't have enough of a superiority complex.

Chandler Roberson [02:14:53] Definitely. Oh, no. I'd been beaten down.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:55] Women out there who have been raised in a church where they're inferior.

Chandler Roberson [02:14:58] Women are. Yeah. Women are going to change the church, the direction of everything.

John Dehlin [02:15:03] Well, honestly, I'm. I'M personally now glad you left early.

Chandler Roberson [02:15:08] Me too. Me too. I'm glad I didn't. Now I don't have to mourn that loss either. So I'm glad I came home and. Yeah, basically, yeah, the time I came home was great. That's definitely when I met you about. Because when I came home, the guy who had told me I should go on a mission, he had a roommate and him. And I started talking and he said, oh, yeah, so. And so said he knew that you weren't going to be able to make it. And that was really upsetting because I was like, I knew I wasn't good enough to do a mission and I just felt so shameful. But. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:35] How long were you out for, did you say?

Chandler Roberson [02:15:37] Like, Just shy of a couple of months.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:39] Oh, okay.

Chandler Roberson [02:15:40] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:41] It's a long time to be in that setting, though, when you really felt like forever. Like a couple of months in such an extreme setting is really not being

Chandler Roberson [02:15:49] able to talk to your family or friends or anything. It was super overwhelming.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:53] Like, that's a. That's a level of resilience. I don't know if I could do that.

John Dehlin [02:15:58] Well, this has been a gripping and powerful episode so far. I. We're gonna have a part two of your story. So YouTube watching Watchers and. And listeners. We're going to be wrapping up in just a second, but I just want to make sure, you know, either. Usually on YouTube is tomorrow we're going to premiere. We'll premiere part two of this episode. Or if you're just listening after the premiere, you'll listen or watch part two, which means you'll just stop this and switch to part two. But before we end this segment, we're going to be getting into your. Your fashion blogging, your. Your marriage and. Or marriages. We're going to be getting into other stuff. Faith stuff. What. What are the final things you would want to kind of tell of your story, kind of to conclude part one?

Chandler Roberson [02:16:46] That's a good question. To conclude this segment?

John Dehlin [02:16:50] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [02:16:51] Yeah. I don't know. I think that.

John Dehlin [02:16:55] So you come home?

Chandler Roberson [02:16:56] Yeah, I came home. And I think I was just. Weirdly enough, it doesn't match my experience, but I felt. I felt intense shame, but I just don't think that was new for me. I was comfortable with shame at this point, but I felt, like, geared up. I just felt ready to go because I knew I had this unique mission of helping people who struggled with anxiety or mental health to do it their own way to, like, empower people to share the gospel in unique ways. So I think it just had me feeling excited because it was more of a creative take on the gospel, and I'm more of a creative person. So I thought, oh, here's a way to make it my own without having to follow such a strict plan. So I was feeling kind of great at this point.

John Dehlin [02:17:39] So you're coming home and you're gonna do what?

Chandler Roberson [02:17:41] I'm gonna go back to BYU Idaho and keep being a missionary on my own time and start a blog.

John Dehlin [02:17:48] So how would. Let's. Let's talk about BYU, Idaho for, like, the next 10 minutes or so. So how was. How was that part of the.

Chandler Roberson [02:17:54] So, yeah, going back was. It was great. I had all my same friends there. I feel like a theme of my experience is just dating a lot. Like, I was talking about people I've dated, but it's just so much of my experience is just a lot of dating. But so I started dating another guy. And let's just be clear.

John Dehlin [02:18:10] Your number one job as a Mormon young woman is to date and get married.

Chandler Roberson [02:18:14] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:18:14] Right.

Chandler Roberson [02:18:15] A lot of it is just, you better be dating. And I had. Once again, I had a really low self. So I just felt like I was so lucky to get to be with these people, and I was just nobody. And I could learn so much from them. And really, they were, for the most part, horrible people. It's like a bummer. These guys that I was dating, they were just horrible.

John Dehlin [02:18:36] What was horrible about these BYU Idaho boys? They were all returned missionaries, right?

Chandler Roberson [02:18:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they were. And it was just a level of superiority that I always felt. They always knew they were better. If I even talk so much as, like, I feel like I'm gonna do something really awesome in my life, and I just don't know what it is yet. It was always, be a mom. You're gonna be a mom. That's what it is. So they always just expect you to be a mom. And I think for me, the. The. One of the unique things about dating Mormon men was the priority of making sure you as their girlfriend are hot. Like, that you look good, that you're like the trophy girlfriend, the trophy wife. It's huge priority to Mormon men and dating women. I mean, the amount of times that I was told, you're like a trope, you're like a trophy girlfriend, you're like a trophy wife as, like, a compliment by Mormon men. It's not a compliment, but they think it is. And I think it was exhausting because I already had so much issue with how I was perceived because of being Mormon. I, as a Mormon woman, it just accelerated at what I realized. Oh yeah, all these guys really do care that much about looks. Like if you aren't pretty, if you're not following that super feminine look, if you're not dressing super nice, they really want nothing to do with you, you're kind of wasteful. So I think it just added to my feeling of I need to be whatever they want me to be. And that was not a healthy way to start dating. It's just who I am is moldable. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:08] Who, who you are is what?

Chandler Roberson [02:20:09] Moldable. It can be whatever somebody wants it to be. I can be whatever they need me to be. Basically kind of like Mormonism. Yeah. So I think I lost a lot of myself a lot of times in relationships because you just be the pretty girl who listens and doesn't have a lot of ideas and doesn't dream too much. You just are there to be an accessory.

John Dehlin [02:20:29] My heart is breaking for all the Mormon girls and women everywhere. Samantha, I saw you knock, nodding your head. Are you vibing with you? Were you dated a lot of byu, Idaho, right?

Samantha Shelley [02:20:38] Yeah, I did. Yeah. I think we had different experiences, but I would definitely agree with the assessment that there's a big focus on aesthetics. Quite a narrow aesthetic as well. Yeah. I don't, it's hard to say. My self esteem was low in its own way too, but I don't think I'd had quite so many self esteem lowering experiences as you maybe.

Chandler Roberson [02:21:06] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:21:08] So I maybe got slightly luckier in some ways.

Chandler Roberson [02:21:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:11] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [02:21:11] And my, my experience with my mom growing up, she struggled pretty severely with body image and things related to that. And my mom is seriously one of the most wonderful, beautiful inside and out people. And I always saw her as not confident, as always thinking she could be doing better insecure. And my mom is just wonderful, beautiful in all ways. And so I think Mormonism got to her early on and witnessing kind of how she carried herself, I think is a lot of how I embodied myself. And not that it was her, it's not her fault. My mom taught me to be a wonderful person. I'm so grateful for my mom, but I think it put me in a different type of a box than maybe some people would have just growing up with a mom who had so much struggled with body image.

John Dehlin [02:22:02] So sustain thin, is that kind of.

Chandler Roberson [02:22:04] Yep. Staying thin, was that a struggle?

John Dehlin [02:22:06] Like was that always on your mind? I guess.

Chandler Roberson [02:22:09] Oh, yeah, yes, definitely. Still to this day, and I mean I've gotten Better. I've improved so much, and therapy has helped me a lot. But, like, I don't eat without feeling bad. I can't eat without feeling bad. I can't not want to be thin. And I'm getting better because I understand that that's, you know, a lot of fat phobia and things like that. And there's so much more to life than being pretty and thin. But it's definitely was an obsession because I had to fit that mold. So it's just hard to make it just go away, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:22:40] We've interviewed a lot of people, young women, that when they go to byu, there's the dorm food and then there's kind of this rumors about the freshman 15 where you gain 15 pounds.

Chandler Roberson [02:22:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:51] And some people's eating disorders get either triggered or amplified when they go to byu.

Chandler Roberson [02:22:58] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Mine was triggered in a different way, I guess, because I had heard about freshman 15. I was like, there's no way that can happen to me. And so I was working out like two or three times a day, and I was tracking my calories. I was eating like 800 calories a day. And I didn't think that was bad. My dad, I think a few times had said, we're bringing Chandler home. She looks too skinny.

John Dehlin [02:23:21] So you're restricting.

Chandler Roberson [02:23:22] Oh, for sure, for sure. I just wanted to be. Yeah, I just wanted to be good enough. And I think food and body image gave me a sense of control. I think that's. That's why my mom has struggled with it, and that's why I struggle with it is just. It felt like the one thing I could control. If I do this thing, there's a result. And I know it happens. So at least that's for me, why I would link the two together.

John Dehlin [02:23:43] I'm so sorry, man. This is hard. I know this is hard stuff.

Chandler Roberson [02:23:48] Stuff. I know, but.

John Dehlin [02:23:51] Okay. Anything else you want to share about your BYU Idaho experience before we get into, I guess, blogging and marriage and those sorts of things?

Chandler Roberson [02:23:59] I don't think there's a whole lot of other BYU Idaho experiences. I mean, I dated a lot of weird people and have a lot of funny stories, but that's always on tick tock. And I met Sam because she actually was one of my boyfriends. He and her were friends, but Sam was like my favorite friend that he had because all of his other friends were just mean and like. Like, they were just weird. They're protective over him. And you were the only friend that would, like, take my side if he did something wrong. So Sam was. And Sam always. But I really admired Sam because Sam didn't strike me as the typical Mormon girl. You didn't seem to like. She didn't buy into all the same stuff that I would have. And I know there are certain things, but you just seemed like. Like you wouldn't take the same garbage that I would have necessarily. Like. There was just a different way about you that I admired. So Sam was a good example of seeing somebody who still really bought into it, but not nearly to the level I would and would have stood up for herself. So, yeah, I feel like we.

Samantha Shelley [02:25:01] Where we had crossover was we both were deeply committed to the church and, like, kept all the rules. But, like, I don't know. I just feel like we would have conversations that were deeper than I could have with. Yeah, a lot of girls at BYU IO and I feel like that, too. I could tell you're intelligent, like, right off the bat.

Chandler Roberson [02:25:20] Thanks. Yeah, I felt like that, too. And.

Samantha Shelley [02:25:22] And we both love Taylor Swift, and.

Chandler Roberson [02:25:24] Yes, we Taylor Swift. And I'd say for as far as modesty, the modesty saga continues at BYU Idaho, because I dress very modest. When I was there, and I remember I had a. One of the members of our bishopric pulled me aside one Sunday to say, we've gotten a couple of complaints, actually three complaints about modesty on you, Ms. Chandler.

John Dehlin [02:25:42] And he said, because what were you wearing? Let people know. I'm sure it was, like, bikinis.

Chandler Roberson [02:25:46] It was a fitted dress to my knees with, like, long sleeves and no low neckline.

Samantha Shelley [02:25:53] And literally just that boys thought she was hot, so they were like, she must be immodest.

Chandler Roberson [02:25:57] The weirdest part. So he said to me, my. The first counselor he had said, I wouldn't have said anything. I haven't seen you wear anything that I would say is immodest. But I've gotten three complaints now. And he said two were from young men and one is from a young woman.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:08] Jealous.

Chandler Roberson [02:26:09] And so there was just a lot of things like that with modesty. But in that situation, I cried my eyes out. And I could tell he felt super bad. And then again, I thought, I need to be better. I just need to do better. So I'm going to step it up. And that's actually when my fashion blog idea kind of started coming together.

John Dehlin [02:26:26] Well, I don't want. I want our listeners to hear. Your TikToks are amazing.

Chandler Roberson [02:26:30] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:26:31] And I don't want to. I mean, if you guys want to share any of those dating experiences or. I don't want to lose that. But, you know, or if you don't want to share, that's fine too.

Chandler Roberson [02:26:40] I mean, it was just a lot of.

John Dehlin [02:26:43] If you had to summarize it.

Chandler Roberson [02:26:45] Yeah, it's. It's dating in your early 20s at BYU Idaho. It feels like you're a child dating because you don't really get to be an adult. It's not like you're going to a bar, you're going somewhere like most people that age are doing. You're. You're going to a homemade fort to watch a Disney movie and doing finger paints.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:01] Lots of fort building.

Chandler Roberson [02:27:02] That's kind of what it's like. It feels very childish and weird. So are you exaggerating?

Samantha Shelley [02:27:07] Are you?

Chandler Roberson [02:27:07] No. I've had all those things happen and the fourth thing multiple times.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:12] I cannot express this enough.

Chandler Roberson [02:27:14] What is it about so many faults? Yes.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:16] Especially because it's like people would just make faults and then make out in the faults. That was essentially the reason for the fault.

Chandler Roberson [02:27:22] Yeah. So there's just a lot of that and a lot of guys telling you like the first or second date that they know they're gonna marry you.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:27] Well, I feel like you probably self esteem related, but you seem to date a lot of guys who just thought they could tell you what to do. And I remember my first boyfriend at BYU Idaho was like that and was like, you need to wax your mustache. And I was like, what the, what the heck? So I feel like I had an experience early on of a boyfriend like that and was just like, nope, nope, nope.

Chandler Roberson [02:27:50] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:51] And then from then on, like us, a relatively strong woman, like, yes, definitely BYU Idaho. But I feel like you just amassed so many people who would be like, just saying stuff that was completely inappropriate and unnecessary to be sharing their opinion about that or trying to mold you.

Chandler Roberson [02:28:07] Well, and I feel like too, if you converting to the church, since I grew up knowing nothing different than being told to do a certain thing and not trusting myself and just doing whatever that thing is, being moldable, like I'm saying, I think that that was just all I ever knew. So it felt familiar. So that's why I definitely liked how you were. Because I was like, oh, that's cool, that's different.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:29] Well, boys would realize I wasn't moldable and break up with me. They'd be obsessed with me for like two months and then be like, oh, she's not gonna be a great wife. She kind of seems like she wants a career.

John Dehlin [02:28:37] I've never heard this term being multiple.

Chandler Roberson [02:28:39] Am I saying right oh, no, moldable. Like changeable. No, you're fine. I'm mumbling a little bit, but yeah, moldable.

John Dehlin [02:28:46] Moldable meaning, like whatever you want.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:48] Malleable.

Chandler Roberson [02:28:49] Yeah, Malleable. Yeah, exactly.

Closing Out Part One and Looking Ahead

John Dehlin [02:28:51] Okay. All right. Well, listeners, this. Chandler, this has been an amazing part one. It's heartbreaking and so sad and disheartening in so many ways to see how continually you are trying your best to be what the. What the church wants you to be and how just time after time you're disappointed. The church doesn't. The church and the Mormon. Mormon Heavenly Father just don't. They don't live up to your awesomeness. And it. It's heartbreaking, but it's also so powerful that you're willing to share this and be vulnerable, including the sexual assault stuff. Because. Because we know that this is going to help so many people.

Chandler Roberson [02:29:40] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:29:41] So thank you so much for what you've shared so far. And this is just part one. We've got a part two.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:46] Yeah, we're just getting into it.

Chandler Roberson [02:29:47] Love it. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:29:48] So, really quickly, we gotta. We're gonna end part one. What else do we have coming up for the rest of your story?

Chandler Roberson [02:29:54] So, yeah, kind of a lot. So, yeah, the fashion blogging. Doing a modest fashion blog. That's a pretty big chunk. And then I would say moving to Utah is a chapter of my life. And getting married in Utah and then getting divorced as well, pretty young. And then getting married again and then getting divorced again. So. And then TikTok.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:16] So big divorce energy.

Chandler Roberson [02:30:17] Big divorce energy.

John Dehlin [02:30:18] And faith transition stuff.

Chandler Roberson [02:30:20] Yes, and faith transition. Yeah. Losing my faith. That is why we're here. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:24] So, Samantha, it's so lovely to have you here. I love having Kara and I love having you.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:31] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:30:32] Thanks so much for being here. You add so much to this conversation.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:35] Yeah. Viewers know I'm most excited for part two of this interview. I do think this has been an incredible part one, but. But I'm very excited for part two. Part two is gonna be good stuff. I'm. I'm really looking forward to getting in.

John Dehlin [02:30:45] So if you're on a live stream, just come back tomorrow and we'll. We'll start tomorrow. If you're not on the live stream, just go immediately to YouTube or your podcast app of choice and check out part two. You won't regret it. But thanks so much, Chandler. Thanks so much, Samantha. Thanks so much, listeners. Thanks to everyone who supports Mormon Stories Podcast. If you are a donor, thank you so much for making this podcast possible. If you're not. We lose donors all the time, every month, and we need your support. And if you value this content and want to see continue, Please go to mormonstories.org Become a monthly donor and we'll keep doing this content for as long as we can. So thanks everyone. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if you have any feedback. Comment and follow us and all the good stuff and join us in right now. Immediately join us for part two of our interview with Chandler. All right, thanks everybody.

Chandler Roberson [02:31:35] Thanks.

John Dehlin [02:31:36] Talk to you soon.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1523

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Dr. John Dehlin. It is November 10, 2021, and we are in part two of an amazing, inspiring, tragic, heartfelt, raw and inspiring interview with Chandler Roberson. Did I get it right?

Chandler Roberson [00:00:19] You got it right. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] Chandler, welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast.

Chandler Roberson [00:00:22] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] How was lunch?

Chandler Roberson [00:00:23] It's fantastic. Leftover sushi is good. Thanks, dad.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] And for those of you who didn't join us for part one, we are so thrilled. We adore Kara Burrell. She is in like Flynn. And sometimes we want to have other kind of like a bench of co interviewers like Gerardo. And we're so thrilled to have with us the one, the only Samantha Shelley from Zelf on the Shelf as co host today.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:50] Yay. I love the bench.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] Welcome.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:53] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] For those who didn't hear the first part, go back, stop, pause, go back and listen to part one. It's really important. But it turns out that. That Samantha and Chandler were both at BYU Idaho together in Rexburg, Idaho. And so Samantha's like, john, you got to interview Chandler. And so I'm like, I'm down. And so, Samantha, thanks for being here and for bringing us this amazing interview. Anything you want to say to our audience?

Samantha Shelley [00:01:20] No, just we're lucky to have Chandler here.

Recap and the Rise of the Fashion Blog

John Dehlin [00:01:22] All right, okay. So for part one, we talked about a bunch of cool stuff. We talked about Chandler growing up in the Sacramento area as a Mormon. We talked about very problematic experiences dating boys and young men within a Mormon context. Really unfortunate interactions with Mormon bishops around the law of chastity. Really unfortunate experiences with sexual assault and or rape, both as a Mormon teenage girl and at BYU Idaho, which included Chandler coming home early from her experience at BYU Idaho, basically feeling afraid to report her sexual assault, slash rape at BYU Idaho for fear of getting kicked out. Really hard stuff. Reinforcing the need for the Mormon Church. Number one, stop having grown men sitting alone with young girls or boys or young adult men or women asking sexually explicit stuff. But also how desperately the Mormon Church needs to start talking about consent and healthy sexuality to its children, teens, and young adults. We also talked about Chandler briefly serving a Mormon mission, deciding to come home early, and closing out her time at BYU Idaho. There were issues around body image and rape culture and modesty and all sorts of cool issues for all those reasons. Go back and watch it. Anything? I'm leaving out Samantha from part one.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:51] No, I think that was a good summary.

Chandler Roberson [00:02:52] Yeah, that sounds about right. And I just want to clarify. I was Born in Sacramento and moved to Vancouver, Washington when I was about 7 or 8. So I did grow up in Sacramento and have a lot of experiences as a kid, but I was.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] Vancouver, Washington.

Chandler Roberson [00:03:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:04] Vancouver, Washington high school years.

Chandler Roberson [00:03:06] My about middle, second grade and on.

John Dehlin [00:03:09] Okay. All right. And that's just the beginning because part two is the stuff that at least Samantha was most excited to talk about

Samantha Shelley [00:03:17] because I was there.

Chandler Roberson [00:03:18] She's there.

John Dehlin [00:03:19] Yeah. So we're going to be talking about you becoming a fashion blogger within the Mormon context. So well known that you ended up on Good Morning America and probably other national media assets or channels. We're going to talk about two. Two Mormon marriages and faith transition stuff and probably a lot more cool things. So where does your Mormon story. How does your Mormon story continue, Chandler? What's next in your epic story?

Chandler Roberson [00:03:49] Okay, well, I think we left off about somewhere along byu, Idaho with kind of the modesty stuff, right? I think so, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:57] You haven't started your blog yet?

Chandler Roberson [00:03:58] Hadn't started my blog yet. But you.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] But you had met Samantha.

Chandler Roberson [00:04:01] I had met Samantha about this time. So yeah, she was like the cool girl that was friends with my ex boyfriend at church. And yeah. So yeah, I just. So blogs were kind of taking off at this time. There wasn't a ton of them, but there was definitely a presence of Mormon fashion bloggers at the time.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] And give us a year. What's an approximate year?

Chandler Roberson [00:04:20] I'm trying to think like 2013. Ish. 12, 13, 14. Anywhere in there. All right, so the presence of Mormon bloggers, fashion bloggers was just coming out all of a sudden. And they were always gorgeous girls and they always had super expensive, awesome clothes. But not all of them applied the modesty aspect to their clothes, even though you knew they were lds.

John Dehlin [00:04:43] Do either of you remember some of these early bloggers? Let's name names if I'm feeling.

Chandler Roberson [00:04:49] Yep. Carol Lauren.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:50] Carl Lauren, Rachel Parcel.

Chandler Roberson [00:04:53] Yep.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:53] Haley Devine. Even though she technically wasn't fashion for sure.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] Yeah, you mentioned her in the first episode.

Chandler Roberson [00:04:58] Yeah, she's more lifestyle, but she totally does do fashion stuff as well. Hers is more. Yeah. But yeah, those are the big names that I remember. At least the ones that are still doing it.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:06] Amber Filler up was like she was everything. Yeah. And it was also around the time that just I think blog mummy blogging and just sort of blogging in general was taking off in a massive way. And it did seem like Mormon women had the reign with that. There's been like whole deep dives that like.

Chandler Roberson [00:05:22] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:22] Why that is publications yeah, yeah.

Chandler Roberson [00:05:24] It's because they're so good at sharing exactly what they're doing, so. And yeah, so they were totally taking off at that time. And I was in Rexburg, and no one was doing it yet in Rexburg, and I noticed that, and I thought, okay, here's a good opportunity to start a fashion blog and use modesty as my. My focus. But I had seen other modest fashion blogs. I just didn't think they were my taste necessarily. I thought they were still kind of frumpy. So I was like, I'm going to make this really cute. Like, J. Crew was really big at the time. And I was like, I'm going to make this happen. Like, putting bright colors things together. So I just started a blog. I just made a WordPress. WordPress blog. They taught us how to make WordPress blogs in school. So I was like, I'm just going to do that. And it just kind of took off. It was weird to get recognized. It, like, it was embarrassing a little bit in public to get recognized when I had it going, but it was also really cool.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Before you say that it took off, describe what it was, what you were doing, what your posts would be like.

Chandler Roberson [00:06:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] And how. What. What it was like to try and build a brand or a blog or a readership or viewership or whatever.

Chandler Roberson [00:06:35] Yeah, I kind of just fell into it. I had no idea what I was doing. I was just kind of copying what I had seen successfully done by some of those bigger bloggers at the time. But I would just put together an outfit. Obviously you just put together something. And growing up, we didn't have a lot of money, so we didn't get really expensive stuff. We just did thrift stores. So I was really good at finding cheaper alternatives to look nice as well. So I would have fun putting together an outfit, and then I would have, like, a friend go out with me. And it was my boyfriend in the beginning, but I fired him. But he would. They would take pictures of my outfits, and then I would upload it to my blog, Days of Chandler. And I would just tag where I'd got all the stuff, and I would post it on Instagram. And I think hashtags were super helpful back then because that's how I started gaining a following. But, yeah, that's kind of the work that went into it. But I just remember feeling really frustrated by garments because even though they were. You would be wearing modest clothes, maybe it was still poking out of, like, the tops or the sides. So I just would get so frustrated. So Once again, I was like, I gotta figure out a way to make this not frustrating and cool so that people will not want to or people will want to wear their garments. Because basically. So.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] So it was a. Primarily a blog.

Chandler Roberson [00:07:53] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:07:54] And is it still up? If people wanted to check it out?

Chandler Roberson [00:07:57] It's still there. It's probably got a bunch of old stuff now. It hasn't been updated in years and years. I literally think you can just search Days of Chandler and It'll be a WordPress blog.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [00:08:07] It should still come up, but.

John Dehlin [00:08:08] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [00:08:09] It'll probably be embarrassing.

John Dehlin [00:08:10] Was it days of chandler.com or was

Chandler Roberson [00:08:12] it days of chandler.com WordPress.com nope. Dot com. Okay. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:08:16] Our domain, baby.

Chandler Roberson [00:08:17] Yeah, baby.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] We are for sure gonna link to that.

Chandler Roberson [00:08:20] Okay, well, good luck.

Samantha Shelley [00:08:21] It's probably terrifying for you, Chandler. Chandler's outfits really were iconic. From my perspective at least.

John Dehlin [00:08:28] Describe them.

Samantha Shelley [00:08:29] Well. Like, everyone did modesty very frumply at byu, Idaho. The Mormon fashion world in general was pretty grim. Like, the mainstream chevron maxi skirts. Lot of chevron, lot of maxi skirts. A lot of, like, skirt extenders. I had a skirt extender phase that was upsetting. I just remember thinking, your outfits are iconic, and I wanted to emulate them so badly. Like, the way you would put colors together in ways that, like, I hadn't really seen other people doing. Maybe you were more immersed in the online blogging world. So to you it felt like you were copying others. I don't know. But to me, it was like, no one's doing this around here. Well.

Chandler Roberson [00:09:03] And I definitely tried to add my own taste into the outfits. Like, I watched what they were doing, but I would also look a lot on Pinterest because that was big at the time, and just try to put my own spin on things. So I did feel like I was making it unique, but learning my best from the people that were being successful was really helpful to me too.

Samantha Shelley [00:09:20] And I feel like you were able to incorporate, like, mainstream, like, more like, Runway fashion of the time or like, what was actually trendy outside of the Mormon bubble, which is like 10 years behind.

Chandler Roberson [00:09:29] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:09:30] Into your modesty outfits. And it would be stuff that you wouldn't necessarily look at and be like, that girl is trying to be modest. It would be stuff that I felt I was in, at least for the time. Like, independently stylish.

Chandler Roberson [00:09:41] Yeah, no, that's accurate.

Mormon Modesty, Blogging, and Building an Audience

John Dehlin [00:09:43] So for our non Mormon viewers and listeners, and for the history sake, describe what it meant in 2012 to be modest as a. As a Mormon woman and what the what? The complications were there.

Chandler Roberson [00:09:57] Yeah. So covering your knees, like anything would cover your knees unless obviously you're swimming. So covering your knee skirts, everything down to your knees. Like cap sleeve shirts or longer nothing. Like no tank tops, nothing low cut in the front or the back. No midriff. So no crop tops or anything like that. Nothing too tight fitting. Also like nothing that's super tight. I don't know, am I missing anything?

John Dehlin [00:10:26] And does this make it hard to look good? Basically.

Chandler Roberson [00:10:28] Oh my gosh. Yeah. You have not much to work with.

Samantha Shelley [00:10:31] I feel like a lot of us pushed the tightness thing. That was like a way that we got around it.

Chandler Roberson [00:10:35] That was the only thing. And depending on your body type, if you're wearing something tight, someone can perceive it as being inappropriate or not. So it becomes this confusing balance that you have to find. But yeah, so really what you have to work with is patterns and like graphic tees and accessories. Like you don't get a whole lot to work with.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] And so I guess it would make sense why at least Mormon women would be really interested in this. Because it's like, how do I look good? Like society's got all these standards for what it means to look fashionable or cool or good. And then that's hard enough and then you've got all this more, you know. And part of this we should probably make explicit. We talked about this a bit. You would have. Because you would have already served a mission. You would be wearing Mormon garments which. Which come. Which have this weird sleeve with women. Do you want to describe the garment? Sleeve for women? Yeah, garments. Explain garments and garments for Mormon women and why and then how that relates to clothes. If you want to.

Chandler Roberson [00:11:39] Garments or.

John Dehlin [00:11:39] Samantha can.

Chandler Roberson [00:11:41] I'm thinking. So garments for Mormon women. I mean it's. It's two pieces and it's basically like a shirt. A pretty high cut shirt with a little bit of a cap sleeve. It goes almost like a T shirt.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] What's a cap sleeve?

Chandler Roberson [00:11:53] It's just sort of like a T shirt. It's.

John Dehlin [00:11:56] Yeah, I know, but I want the audience.

Chandler Roberson [00:11:58] Yeah. It covers the shoulders, the most central

Samantha Shelley [00:12:00] part of the body.

Chandler Roberson [00:12:01] Yep. It's high in the back, it's. It's low. And then the bottoms are like briefs.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] Almost like biker shorts, right?

Chandler Roberson [00:12:08] Yeah, biker shorts. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:09] That's the best kind of the ones that are like biker shorts.

Chandler Roberson [00:12:11] Yeah. The ones array of worse styles, but yeah. And then they go all the way to your knees. There was one type that you could get and it would be a little bit higher, but it was also seen

Samantha Shelley [00:12:19] as kind of Karen Essa get the petites even though you're five foot nine. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] Margi always got the petites.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:26] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [00:12:26] Didn't we all? I feel like that was the hack. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:29] And then. And then again, this is garment culture, Mormon garment culture. This is almost like. Like non Mormon porn. They're like, tell me about the secret underwear things.

Chandler Roberson [00:12:40] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] But like, if you see. If you. If you walk around Provo or anywhere, at least when I was growing up, you would always have this issue of, like, trying to wear normal clothes. So, like, men, when I would wear shorts, number one, I would always have to buy super long shorts.

Chandler Roberson [00:12:55] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:56] And then no matter what, it didn't matter if I ever sat down or like, you know, if my shorts got hiked up for whatever reason. You would always see Mormon men or women with the garments poking out of their shorts and. Or their skirt. And so you either had to hike up the garments or roll them up at the top or whatever. But. But it's also kind of really awkward because a lot of times people just didn't bother. And then you're just seeing these weird underwear things poking out of people's shorts and skirts. Am I?

Chandler Roberson [00:13:28] Yeah, totally. And depending on who you are, some people thought it was super naughty if you had stuff hanging out. Like, if your stuff was showing and you weren't tucking it, that could be seen as not. Not the right thing to do. But also, some people just didn't care. So there's definitely a range.

Samantha Shelley [00:13:44] Also, men could have their, like, men always have their garment top showing, like the neck, because it just passes as an undershirt. But if you saw a woman's undershirt,

John Dehlin [00:13:53] that would be what would happen.

Samantha Shelley [00:13:54] It's more of a faux pas, socially.

John Dehlin [00:13:56] What would people. Would they say something or.

Chandler Roberson [00:13:58] What is that phrase? There's like a phrase your. Your testimony showing or something. There's like a weird phrase.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:05] That's the phrase.

Chandler Roberson [00:14:06] Okay. Yeah. But I remember thinking, that's strange. It's my underwear. You wouldn't point that out to anyone else for any other type of underwear.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] And then there's always the issue of people, Mormons. It's a way Mormons can know whether even your parents or your siblings can know, are you. Are you staying faithful or not? Yep, they would. What would they do?

Chandler Roberson [00:14:24] I mean, they would ask you why you're not wearing your garments. Right. They already know that you're not.

John Dehlin [00:14:28] Well, before that, they would look. So like, there are ways to know whether someone's Wearing their garments or not.

Chandler Roberson [00:14:34] Right, right. How would you know if you're wearing clothes that are not modest? Right.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] Okay. Or you can also tell even if you are wearing modest.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:42] I mean. Yeah, they could be peeking out. You could see the little symbols.

Chandler Roberson [00:14:46] Oh, I guess that's true.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:47] Depending on if you do bra over or bra under. That's a whole.

John Dehlin [00:14:50] Okay. Yeah. What about that is.

Chandler Roberson [00:14:52] Is it bra over, bra under, Depending if you're super. By the rules, it's supposed to be the garments like closest to your body, so everything should be over the top of it. Basically. I did do it. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:04] So faithful.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] So explain why that's weird for a woman. For men who have no idea what I mean, let alone a T shirt under a bra.

Chandler Roberson [00:15:11] I mean. Yeah, it is exactly how it's described. It just doesn't look or feel normal.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:16] The bra with you. Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [00:15:17] And I feel like when you're a guy and you're getting garments, obviously they're going to be frustrating still. But like going as a girl going from wearing like two very small pieces of underwear to too huge, most of your body pieces of underwear. As to where guys go from wearing undershirts and boxers, it's not a huge adjustment as it is for most women, I would say. So it's just. Yeah, it's super frustrating. And everyone knows, like you said, if you're not wearing them, people always have to make the little remark like, oh, I was at the gym, that's why I'm not wearing mine. So people don't judge them if they're not wearing their garments. It's definitely a way for people to check each other.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:51] And wouldn't you get comments on your blog if even when you were just people suspicious that you weren't wearing your

Chandler Roberson [00:15:58] garments all the time? All the time. Like garments. Question mark, question mark, question.

Samantha Shelley [00:16:02] That's something that people feel is appropriate.

Chandler Roberson [00:16:04] Yeah. Very regular.

John Dehlin [00:16:06] So. So in the Mormon culture of a woman, young woman having a blog who's fashionable, saying, here's how to try and look semi fashionable and decent with these lame, goofy garments underneath.

Chandler Roberson [00:16:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:22] I can imagine that you would have a built in, high demand audience, right?

Chandler Roberson [00:16:26] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:26] From the start. Right.

Chandler Roberson [00:16:27] Huge. Yeah. I mean, I didn't realize at the time that it was as big as it was, but yeah, there were tons of girls. I would get messages from moms. I would get messages from people all the time. Thank you so much. This helps. I just don't feel like I have to spend as much time being frustrated about wearing garments or I'm not As scared about having to get garments now because it looks not so like it's more fun. You can still be cool because that was a lot of my thing too was, oh, you can blog and be religious and it can be acceptable in the world. Like, that was my push for sure. So, yeah, people were all about it and I felt really good because I was doing the exact thing that I hoped I could do, you know, that I wasn't doing on my mission. So it felt really good, but a lot of pressure.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] So how are you doing this and going to school? Did you stop school? Was this a job? Were you just doing this part time?

Chandler Roberson [00:17:13] I was just doing it on the side. Yeah. I was just after school or the days that I didn't have classes quite as much, I would just put together the outfit and go outside and like I said, have somebody take pictures. So it's kind of a quick thing. And I would stay up a lot of nights just posting stuff and putting things together and looking at Instagram. So I just did it on top of school.

John Dehlin [00:17:31] So the platforms were WordPress, Instagram, WordPress, Instagram.

Chandler Roberson [00:17:34] I did a bit on Facebook, but that was kind of all there was at the time.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] Okay, so. And did you. Did you quickly try and monetize or not or get sponsors or.

Chandler Roberson [00:17:44] Honestly, when I got into it, I didn't even know you could make money. I thought it was just a fun thing people did. So when I learned that most bloggers were making money, it was surprising to me and it was intimidating. But in the beginning, it was mostly just collaborations with other brands. A lot of modest clothing brands or local companies would want me to come pick out a few pieces and like style them somehow and then post about it. So it was mostly collaborations.

John Dehlin [00:18:08] And what would you get out of that?

Chandler Roberson [00:18:11] Well, I would get free clothes, but it felt kind of disingenuous because a lot of the time it wasn't stuff I would necessarily want, but it seemed like a good opportunity. So I was like, I'm just gonna style this for them so that even if it's somebody else's style, they could find something. So I got a little bit lost once there was collaboration stuff involved.

John Dehlin [00:18:30] Yeah, okay. All right.

Samantha Shelley [00:18:32] And it was such a new space. I feel like now people have more of a general idea of how sponsorships and stuff work. But we really didn't know that stuff back then.

Chandler Roberson [00:18:40] No, I. I was so new to it. I mean, I had offers to do paid stuff, but I think I just felt like I didn't want to take the Money, because I wanted to do it because I enjoyed doing it. So it was. It was a very weird thing.

John Dehlin [00:18:52] You didn't want to sell out?

Chandler Roberson [00:18:53] I didn't want to sell out. Yeah. I didn't want to be one of those people. I mean, I kind of did by doing collaborations with brands, but.

Samantha Shelley [00:18:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:59] Okay, so what happens next in the story?

Chandler Roberson [00:19:01] Oh, good question. So I was doing the Modest Fashion Blog, and I was. So I didn't finish my degree at BYU Idaho, but I was just feeling a lot of burnout just dating there and kind of the culture, and I was loving doing my fashion blog. I'm trying to make sure I'm not skipping any BYU Idaho stuff before I go on, but that seems accurate. So. Okay. Yeah. So basically I was trying to figure out what I was going to do next, and I kept thinking, wait, I

John Dehlin [00:19:30] could just say you had dating and sexism, meeting your best friend, sexual assault, and then some conflict about church stuff.

Chandler Roberson [00:19:38] Yeah, that sounds right. Still.

John Dehlin [00:19:40] Okay, so then. Then we're going to Moving to Utah. Culture shock.

Chandler Roberson [00:19:43] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:19:44] That kind of thing.

Chandler Roberson [00:19:45] Yeah. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:46] Nannying.

Chandler Roberson [00:19:48] Yep. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:49] And then meeting her husband.

Chandler Roberson [00:19:50] Yeah. Yeah. So I just figured Utah seemed like the next best thing to do because it was a bunch of Mormons and that's where all the big fashion bloggers were. So I figured I better just go there. And I had a couple of friends here, so it just made sense to just move out here and pursue fashion blogging and just get a job and see what would happen. So.

John Dehlin [00:20:09] And if you're. If you're in Rexburg, moving to Salt Lake is like moving to the big city.

Chandler Roberson [00:20:12] Oh, yeah. It felt so exciting. I honestly, the first time I came to Utah was somewhere during my first year of college, and everyone was so shocked. They're like, you can't be Mormon if you've never been to Utah. Which is like. Well, I think there's a lot of people that haven't been there. But anyway, so my first time to Utah, I just really loved it, and I thought it would be a really cool place to live. So then I ended up here.

John Dehlin [00:20:33] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [00:20:34] But, yeah, it was quickly. As soon as I got here, I still was doing my fashion blog, and I started to do more collaboration with other bloggers and go to events with other big Utah bloggers. And it. It just. I think it lost a bit of its magic pretty quickly because I started to see these girls that I won't name names, but I started to see girls that had really solid online personalities that I really admired or look up to. I'd meet them in person and they were terrible or they were just not nice or just not the person that I thought they were. And I started to learn that pretty much all the collaborations they were doing were not brands that they would support or agree with. They were just doing for the money. So it just all of a sudden felt like a really fake industry to be in. I didn't. It seemed really exciting before. And then I got here and it was kind of like a bubble burst. I was just like, oh, this isn't what I thought it was. Blogging is kind of terrifying. So anyway, so I kept doing it, but I kind of slowed down once I got here and I got into nannying when I was here, but before.

John Dehlin [00:21:38] So would you have already been on Good Morning America by this point or.

Chandler Roberson [00:21:40] Well, so I was at. On the show, but they featured a bunch of my outfits and, like, pictures, and they linked to my blog, basically before, where this was right before I came to Utah.

John Dehlin [00:21:50] Okay, so talk about getting that big and what that was like.

Chandler Roberson [00:21:53] Honestly, I didn't even. Like, it was a really cool experience, but I still didn't feel like I was a big deal. Like, if some. Like I said, if somebody ran into me and was telling me, oh, I follow your blog and I love your blog, I would feel so embarrassed. Like, I don't know why. I just felt like, why would they want to follow me or why would they want to do what I'm doing? That doesn't make any sense. So it. It just always felt like imposter syndrome. I knew that I was on that show Good Day or Good Morning America, and it just felt like I got lucky, I guess. I didn't feel, like, proud of myself.

John Dehlin [00:22:21] I would just assume everyone who made it at that level in terms of exposure would be making six figures, just totally raking.

Chandler Roberson [00:22:28] Not back then. Then it was just a different. It was just different, I guess. I don't know. I. I was so small that I don't think they would have had to offer me. And I mean, in comparison to other people that were doing huge brands and stuff like that, I just don't think I was big enough compared to some of the other ones to. For them to have paid me for anything.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] Any idea how many viewers or, you know, followers or whatever I knew at one time?

Chandler Roberson [00:22:51] And I don't even know if I could remember.

John Dehlin [00:22:53] Thousands? Hundreds?

Chandler Roberson [00:22:54] Oh, yeah, definitely tens. Hundreds at one point, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:22:57] And how often were you getting recognized in Rexburg?

Chandler Roberson [00:23:00] It got to a point where it was Maybe other. Every other time I was going somewhere, which felt super surreal. And then when I moved to Utah, I was getting recognized, which also felt weird because Utah's so much bigger. So it was a really cool experience, though, to meet people in person and felt like I was doing something bigger, you know, than I expected that I could do. So it was. It was kind of cool to have my own thing. I was just proud of myself that I was doing something, because I feel like as a Mormon woman, you kind of see yourself, and I think this is probably why a lot of Mormon women get into MLMs, but you just see yourself as everything's happening in your background noise or not doing anything, so. So it just kind of gave me a little bit of confidence that I could do something else.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] Yeah. Yeah, makes sense.

Chandler Roberson [00:23:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:44] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [00:23:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:45] What? So you said you started nanny.

Chandler Roberson [00:23:48] Yeah, so I started nanning. And that was also a very interesting culture shock, just seeing kind of how Utah families run. It's also a very stressful position to be in. I've nannied for a couple of pretty big Utah mommy bloggers, and I also won't get into their names, but it was a huge learning experience just how Utah families function. But I did meet my first husband, who's now ex husband, but I met him mid nannying for one of those jobs. I think I had only been in Utah for four or five months at the time.

John Dehlin [00:24:23] My kids have done nanning, and. And it's hard.

Chandler Roberson [00:24:27] Yeah, it's so hard.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] Brutal.

Chandler Roberson [00:24:29] It's decent money.

John Dehlin [00:24:30] Even if you love the family, it's hard.

Chandler Roberson [00:24:31] Oh, yeah, exactly. Because you love them so much that you almost give way too much of yourself. And then if anything goes wrong, you just, once again, you kind of blame yourself and you feel really bad. And yeah, it's just stressful. So it was great. But I would never do nanny.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] And you're seeing all sorts of stuff you probably shouldn't see, and. And you're seeing all the dark skeletons of people's closets.

Samantha Shelley [00:24:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:51] Sometimes people are confiding in you things that. Yeah, that may. You may not be old enough to or really want to be, you know, dealing with. And.

Chandler Roberson [00:24:59] Yeah, I would have conversations with one of my bosses about some of her issues with the church. And it was kind of during the time that it came out that people who had gay parents couldn't be baptized. That all happened about 2015. So I was working for one of my bosses, and she confided in me that, you know, that was really troublesome for her, and she was having a hard time with it. And that was like, really cool for me to have that experience, to get to communicate that. I also was struggling with that with someone that I really respected. So there were moments that it was really nice, but then it would be like the next day it wouldn't be a problem for her anymore or something, or she'd be like, she would have talked to her husband and she was like, I guess we just can't understand all things, you know? And I'd be like, oh. So I never really knew where I stood. I was like, are we on the same page or.

John Dehlin [00:25:43] Yeah, what can you say? So I, I, I don't know. A lot of, I don't think I've ever really met like full time influencers, but I see these people where they're like on vacation and they're like filming everything or they're, you know, having, making toast for their kids and they're doing selfies or whatever. Like, but I'm imagining behind the scenes, like parents snipping each other or like, you know, being kids misbehaving and like, like, of course, social, one of the downsides of social media is that it portrays an ideal and people's lives are messy.

Chandler Roberson [00:26:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:24] But I imagine that in this, in this influencer world it can even be worse because just the, the pressure and there's probably, there's got to be a level of intensity where it's just, it's like a double mess.

Chandler Roberson [00:26:40] Oh, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:26:41] Without, so, without like throwing shade or like trying to like single anyone out.

Chandler Roberson [00:26:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:46] Can you give us just a sense for what it's like behind the scenes? With these types of families, it is chaos.

Chandler Roberson [00:26:52] I mean, you, like, love it some days and some days you're just ready to give it up. But it's chaos. Like, that's the best way I can describe it because they're kind of the face of their brand, which is the way it works, I guess, but. And then you're just the assistant or the nanny or whatever they want you to be, and you're making kind of all the stuff happen. But you watch their stories or you watch their posts and you're nowhere to be seen, you're nowhere credited. And it's like they just convince everyone that they're this magic person that can accomplish everything with no help. And you feel bad, like you're being complicit in this idea where people think, well, so and so can do it. How come I can? And you start to see that and you feel pretty guilty because you're like, oh, my gosh, if only they knew how go, go, go. It was for me running errands and redoing rooms and watching kids and running them to places, and I'm exhausted. Taking, you know, five kids to Costco or whatever it is and grocery shopping, making meals. And you're like, yeah, of course your life is good and happy because you have somebody helping you. But no one likes to really acknowledge that. That they have help or nannies or anything. Which is interesting.

Samantha Shelley [00:27:54] As if Mormon women needed more standards to live up to. They're impossible.

Chandler Roberson [00:27:58] Yeah, exactly. There's so much stress, and that's. That's a hard thing about being a Mormon woman is Mormon women do a lot of problematic things, but there's a pressure on Mormon women to do those things. And so you want to be mad at them, but you're like, oh, you're just part of this system that tells you what to want and how to feel and how to exist. So it's. It's an impossible situation for everybody.

Samantha Shelley [00:28:19] Yeah. And I really, I really see, like, the Mormon mummy blogging world, like, there's just so much untapped creativity and even, like, professional energy among Mormon women that they don't get to explore. And so you mentioned MLMs, but I also just feel like blogging and social media is, like, one way they can channel that, and they didn't necessarily. It makes sense why they jumped on board with that so much.

Chandler Roberson [00:28:43] Yeah. Oh, yeah. I resonate with that for sure. It just gives you an outlet to be creative and good at what you're doing that's not outside the home.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] So, yeah, yeah, for. For Mormon moms that wanted to be a little bit more than just a mom. And I don't mean just a mom. Like, I think it's just a mom. I think it's probably one of the hardest jobs I've ever seen. But for someone who, who needed or wanted something more, it's. It's a way to do that that's socially acceptable. Let me ask you really quickly. There's also that additional layer of trying to appear Mormon. And, and, you know, no, Mormons are perfectly Mormon, but I imagine you also got to see people who maybe weren't always living up to the standards of the church, but wanted to project the image that they were or that they were orthodox when they really weren't anything worth talking about there.

Chandler Roberson [00:29:32] I'm trying to think, for me, I mean, the first family that I worked for, that I'm thinking of, they were super firm believers and I would say they were pretty much exactly how they were, and they're perceived exactly how they are. So I don't really think I saw that too much with them, but the other family that I work for, I know that they had a lot of issues, but it was kind of encouraging the idea that they were still believing, so. But I understand that pressure all at the same time, too. It's. It's. You don't want it. Like when I had my blog and I wanted to stop doing the modesty thing, there's a huge pressure because you realize you're about to lose what you've worked really hard to gain, so you want to hang onto it just a little bit longer. Tough position.

John Dehlin [00:30:10] Totally.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:11] And people feel so entitled to, I mean, answers about your underwear and just like, to you continuing to be this thing that they have identified with.

Chandler Roberson [00:30:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] Okay. So you did the mommy stint. Mommy blog, nanny stint, yes. And that's a really common thing, by the way, within Mormonism generally. Just, you know, especially if a Mormon young woman doesn't want to go to college or doesn't really think there's a career in store. It's a way to make some money and bide some time until the Mormon man falls in your lap, right?

Chandler Roberson [00:30:47] Yep. And honestly, I nannied so many different types of families, like huge families, small families, different age groups. And I think for Mormon women, at least for me, it felt like a good way to get experience in being a mom, too, because you're working, but you're also learning how to do the Mormon mom thing. And I think for most people, that probably works in their favor. They enjoy it. They. They see all the benefits of it. But I think it had an opposite effect on me, where I saw how much work goes into being a mom and all the stress and how little time you have for yourself. And so I think it really was what put pause for me on how, you know, you want to. Mormon women are encouraged to have kids as soon as they can. As soon as you're married. And I just. It scared me because I spent so much time nannying. I was like, I don't think most people realize what a commitment this is to rush into that, so.

John Dehlin [00:31:37] Can backfire.

Chandler Roberson [00:31:38] Yes.

Faith Crisis and Discovering the CES Letter

John Dehlin [00:31:40] All right, so where does your story go there?

Chandler Roberson [00:31:42] So, yeah, so I'm nannying, and then I meet my first husband. And we were both pretty young. We were 22. Each of us were both 22, and he was wonderful. I have nothing but good things to say about him. We were just really young, and we actually Met when I was nanning for one of those huge families. And they all loved him and he would come over, but they were also very strict about the rules about us spending time together. So if he was to like, come over and. Because I also lived at this family's house, so basically he would come over and they would remind me, he cannot stay the night, even if it's on the couch. He needs to leave. That's the rules. So I was living in this place where I had rules of like a, you know, teenager, as like an adult. I was 22. So we had this kind of a interesting relationship period where it just felt like we were kids and then we kind of. I mean, we knew each other for about a year before we got married, but it was when I was working for this family that I actually found out that Sam and Tanner had left the church.

Samantha Shelley [00:32:54] Oh, yeah, yeah. Because you mentioned the 2015 policy, and we were already pretty open about having left before that.

Chandler Roberson [00:33:01] Yeah. So it was. I was working for this family. And I remember when I was working for them, I thought to myself, oh, my testimony is so strong, nothing could ever, ever hurt my testimony at this point. And then I saw that Sam and Tanner had left. And Sam and Tanner, at least how I saw it at byu, Idaho were just like the representatives of good Mormons, like the cool Mormons. They. They were the faithful Mormons. And I just admired both of them a lot. And I think most of us, our testimonies are somewhere in other people as well. And so when they left, I. It was just like one of the darkest days that I had had so far because it was just like, they're so intelligent. If they left, like, what could be wrong? Like, what do they know that I don't know? And I don't exactly if I remember if I messaged or if I just saw that you guys had posted about the CBS letter.

John Dehlin [00:33:53] But how did you find out they had stopped believing?

Chandler Roberson [00:33:55] I think you guys posted something pretty

Samantha Shelley [00:33:57] public about it right away. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:59] Is that before you're stories interview?

Samantha Shelley [00:34:01] Yes. Especially because we both did Mormon blogging and I think we were both sort of workshopping our faith crises somewhat publicly. I mean, obviously it's like only tip of the iceberg is being shown on social media, but still. Yeah, we were both back then very of the persuasion. Like we're gonna write a massive thing. So. Yeah, we like, we wanted people to know. I mean. Yeah, yeah.

Chandler Roberson [00:34:23] And I'm, I'm glad that you guys did. But yeah, so it was. I think it might've been on Facebook or something, but I saw it and then I saw something about the CES letter and me thinking, oh, well, if there's problems here, I better figure out what they are so that I can help other people if they're having problems, because it's not going to go away. And so I had gotten off work for that day and I went in my room and I, like, locked the door and I just read the CES letter as much as I could, and it was a lot. Obviously, the CS Letter is like a long read, so I read as much as I could and I just felt sick. I felt so sick. I was so scared. And I was just thinking, what am I going to do? Because even in that moment, I hadn't accepted that it wasn't true. But I was starting to think, what if it's not true? For the first time in my life, I'm 22 and I'm thinking, what if this is a lie?

John Dehlin [00:35:10] So I love to slow down during this part because so many people who are listening. First of all, CS Letter is a letter to a CBS director written by a friend of mine named Jeremy Runnels who had a bunch of doubts and questions, and he. He wrote a church educator to try and get answers, and he never even got a response. And so he shared his letter@cesletter.org and it has been responsible for hundreds of thousands of Mormons learning the truth about Mormon church history and doctrine and theology. Because none of us were taught so many important basic things about our own religion, even if we were 6th generation Mormons, until either we learned it from books or podcasts, before CS Letter or CS Letter, once it came out, or other types of things, all the truth of our troubling church history was kept from all of us. So that's what CES letter is. Go to csletter.org pause this. Go read the whole thing, then come back and continue this interview. I'm just kidding. It's like 70 pages long. But I want to slow down. Can you tell us any of the things you read in the CBS letter that you remember? So just to give people an idea of what things you learned and what things troubled you.

Chandler Roberson [00:36:28] Yeah. It feels in a way like such a blur because it was such a traumatic feeling moment just to have everything kind of the rugs just taken out from under you. But I do remember the things that shocked me initially were the similarities between the Book of Mormon and the. Is it the view of the Hebrews? Yep. That was really disturbing to me.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] Basically Suggesting that the Book of Mormon could have. The ideas for the Book of Mormon could have been kind of plagiarized from another book.

Chandler Roberson [00:36:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:36:56] The core narrative structure seems to have been borrowed from a book that both Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith had full access to. Other books, too. Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [00:37:08] Yeah. So that one was huge to me. And then about the. The. The Abraham Book of Abraham, Book of Abraham. Just that it wasn't even the text that Joseph Smith said that he translated. It was completely unrelated.

John Dehlin [00:37:23] Those who don't know what she's talking about, basically, Supposedly. Well, Joseph Smith bought some mummy scrolls from Egypt. There's a whole amazing series on Mormon Stories by Dr. Robert Rittner, an Egyptologist. But basically, Joseph Smith bought a bunch of scrolls from mummies, claimed to have translated them into what now is called the Book of Abraham within Mormon scripture. And then. But that was all before the Rosetta Stone had been really translated and available to Egyptian scholars to study.

Chandler Roberson [00:37:54] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] So once Egyptian scholars actually translated the scroll, the word Abraham didn't even appear. And they were totally, you know, written in the wrong time period.

Chandler Roberson [00:38:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] For. And so deeply troubling. Okay.

Chandler Roberson [00:38:06] Super troubling. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:07] That bothered you.

Chandler Roberson [00:38:08] So that was tough. And I'm trying to remember now, but those were two huge ones. Polygamy had always been in the back of my head, especially since that first video that I'd seen that my ex boyfriend's friend had sent me, but that they really broke it down in the CES letter, if I'm remembering right. And it just did not sit well with me. I mean, I heard about polygamy, but I wasn't aware about Joseph Smith's wives being as young as 14. That was super upsetting because I don't know when I. And I don't mean to backtrack again, but when I came over my mission, my parents were like, hey, we need to watch this documentary. It's so good. It's called Going Clear and Scientology. Yeah. And my parents love documentaries. And so it was like, awesome, let's watch this. And I remember watching it, and I'm so grateful for that documentary because it was one of those moments where I started to see, like, oh, well, I'm glad we don't do that thing, at least. And then in the back of my head, I'd think, well, we kind of do that. And then I'd see another thing and think, oh, I'm glad we don't do that, but we kind of do that. And so I would look at other cults or religions and See the problems that they had, you know, like similar things, but I would be able to separate them and say, well, ours was for a good reason, or ours was this. And so seeing the CS letter kind of took away those, like, hopes or ability to dismiss something and say, no, these things actually happened, and this is an issue. And I couldn't just deny that the things hadn't happened anymore, or I couldn't pretend that the story that I thought was true was true anymore. Because same with learning that Joseph Smith used a rock and a hat to translate the Book of Mormon. That was not what I memorized on my mission. That's not what I taught people on my mission. And that was a really.

John Dehlin [00:39:55] What were you taught?

Chandler Roberson [00:39:56] That he went out, he had questions. He went out into the grove of trees and he prayed, and that he was overcome with darkness, which was Satan. And then all of a sudden, there was two beings, and it was God and Jesus. And they told him not to, you know, go to any of the churches or whatever. And then he had. Sorry, I'm going off a tangent now because I'm just.

John Dehlin [00:40:20] No, so the. The. The rock in the hat is how you were told he had.

Chandler Roberson [00:40:24] So I was.

John Dehlin [00:40:25] Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Chandler Roberson [00:40:26] So after that, he kind of fast forward, and then I was told that he was taking the. The gold plates that he found after that. And he was basically through the.

John Dehlin [00:40:39] Tell me if I'm right, that Angel Moroni had given him these magic spectacles that were ancient.

Chandler Roberson [00:40:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:40:46] Called the Urim and Thummim.

Chandler Roberson [00:40:47] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:40:48] And that he would have the plates on a table and then use these magic spectacles that were somehow Old Testament ancient, and he would use those to translate the Book of Mormon gold plates from, quote, reformed Egyptian into English. Is that what you were taught?

Chandler Roberson [00:41:03] No. That's right.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] Okay. That's what you were taught, and that's what you taught people on your mission.

Chandler Roberson [00:41:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:41:08] And then what did you actually find out for the CES letter?

Chandler Roberson [00:41:10] Yeah, that he was using his seer stone that he had used to basically rip people off previously with. And, you know, licking in the hat with a stone and being able to translate or see the words through that instead. And that just.

John Dehlin [00:41:26] And the plates weren't in the room.

Chandler Roberson [00:41:28] The plates weren't in the room. Which kind of makes it confusing of why did all the stuff have to happen for them to get the plates in the first place? Then why did Laban's head have to be cut off? And why did all these things happen if the plates weren't Even really part of the whole thing. It doesn't make any sense.

John Dehlin [00:41:43] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [00:41:44] So that was just frustrating because everyone would say, you know, Joseph Smith. If you can disprove Joseph Smith, basically, then the whole thing's a sham. But you can't disprove Joseph Smith. And I'd always kind of felt like that was true until I read the CBS letter and then I was like, oh, so the whole thing kind of just fell through.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:01] It does such a good job, the CES letter, that the well has been so poisoned by believers around the ces. So it's one of my biggest frustrations because the Cesar is great and also Jeremy and others are like constantly working to update it. So if there are any, like, things that are slightly off, it gets edited. But yeah, it's such a fantastic overview and it really shows you how there's like no piece you can really cling to because even like pieces you hadn't even thought of, there's like something in it that just shows it's all complete.

Chandler Roberson [00:42:32] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:32] So it's like so much, I feel

John Dehlin [00:42:34] like that's Samantha's opinion.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:37] So much of Mormonism and people maintaining belief in Mormonism despite the fact that evidence abounds that it's false is in Samantha's opinion, in my tiny brained opinion, is you encounter these issues and then if you can keep those issues kind of isolated enough from each other, then, you know, Mormons can just have these justifications for each of them in your mind. And what's, what's really fatal is when you start to build a holistic picture of all the issues and how like there is no chess move that like makes this all work because it's like one justification that you use for that. Well, then that is like completely doesn't work here. And you know, I feel like the CSS does a good job at painting that more holistic picture of all the issues.

Chandler Roberson [00:43:20] Yeah. And I think with the CS letter it was kind of like you were saying originally, you're not taught any of this, like a lot of these things. No one's telling you the troublesome history or aspects to the church. It's actually told that it's anti material and if you seek it out, you're going to lose your testimony and that's on you. So no one ever had presented these ideas to me before. So it was weird at 22 being like, presented all this information that felt withheld from me. So I think that was maybe the most like jarring part of reading the CES letter was just why they never heard of any of this stuff.

John Dehlin [00:43:57] Yeah, yeah. So there's, yeah, there's the shock of learning all the troubling history, including the anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. Why are there horses when horses weren't in Mesoamerica during that time? Yeah, that seal and steel and swords and.

Chandler Roberson [00:44:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:13] Wheels, all, you know, all those things in the Book of Mormon that shouldn't be there. Wheat and barley and.

Chandler Roberson [00:44:18] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:44:18] But, but, yeah, so there's learning all the troubling information and, but then the bigger concern for many people is why was this withheld from me?

Chandler Roberson [00:44:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:27] And why is. The Church misled me and sent me on a mission to teach people things that weren't true.

Chandler Roberson [00:44:34] And you've already committed so much of yourself to them under a certain premise. And so it's like, why did I not get to find out everything before I promised those things or made these covenants or whatever it is? It just felt intentional. So that was upsetting.

John Dehlin [00:44:50] Yeah. And the Mormon Church has been objectively dishonest and intentionally has hid this information from its members for over 150 years in one way or another. And you know, in Mormon stories, we, our goal is never to actually take people out of the church, but we do believe very strongly in informed consent. So the reason why I take this time to drill down is because if I had a magic wand, every Mormon or every Mormon investigator would know the all the truth about the Church's history and his truth claims so they could make an informed decision about how much money to give the church, whether to give you life to the church, whether to serve a mission. And then if people choose, well, that's

Chandler Roberson [00:45:30] exactly on them, then it was a real choice.

John Dehlin [00:45:32] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [00:45:33] So.

John Dehlin [00:45:33] Real choice. Yeah, it's a good point.

Chandler Roberson [00:45:35] Yeah. So it's just frustrating thinking about that time, but I just remember feeling so panicked in a way that I'd never felt before because I felt like I was finally losing something that I could make excuses for in the past, like we were saying. And so I called my dad again and I remember just saying, hey, have you ever heard of the CBS letter? And have you read it? And he told me that he's read some of it and he was able to give me some answers. But like for the first time with my dad, who I always trusted, he gave me answers, but they just didn't make me feel any better because you can't really, with the, you know, horses and all that, you can't really make a good argument for why that is. It's I think that maybe it was on this show, but somebody had said it was kind of like saying Abraham Lincoln had a cell phone. Like, you can't. There's no excuse for those types of things. So I just had this despair. And with my ex husband, we were engaged at the time when I was going through this, so it was full panic because, you know, you're getting interviewed to go through the temple, and you're about to have this huge. The highest ordinance that you can have, basically, as a Mormon woman. So there was just a lot of pressure to figure it out.

Samantha Shelley [00:46:47] How much were you telling him about this stuff that you'd encountered?

Chandler Roberson [00:46:51] Nothing. Didn't tell him anything because I didn't want to make him uncomfortable. And I. I was really hoping that I was gonna make it work. I don't know if you remember, but I wrote an article. Yes, I remember it vividly. It went near viral, and now I. I hit it, and. So embarrassing. But it was just why I chose to believe. And, you know, sometimes science is wrong and, you know, we can all choose to believe. And that was kind of my hope, is that I could just get past it by choosing to believe. And I think that's the take a lot of people go with until they accept it is what it is.

John Dehlin [00:47:26] Is that article still up? Cause I want to get into it. You took it down.

Chandler Roberson [00:47:29] It's gone. Yeah, it's long gone. But it was pretty big at the time. I got a lot of feedback from Mormons and ex Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:47:36] It was good feedback. Oh, go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [00:47:38] Oh, sorry. I'm just so excited about that you've brought up this article, because as soon as me and Tana saw that you'd posted that article, I was like, she's having a faith crisis. And it was. It was a thing, especially at the time, for people with blogs, I guess it. And now people do it in Instagrams. You can always tell that someone's going through a faith crisis. And. And having gone through it myself, I. It felt so familiar where you're at that point where you're like, okay, this really isn't adding up. I know too much. But I'm also. My identity and my perceived psychological safety is too wrapped up in the church yet to leave. It's like the. The reading it, I was like, this is like the most familiar limbo. And I knew, and I know that feeling of, like, so desperately trying to stay and asserting it publicly.

Chandler Roberson [00:48:22] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:48:22] I mean, it must be. I'm sure you could, like, study it, and it must be like, For a purpose. Because it feels like everyone does it when they're going through a faith crisis. They will start. Even these days, I still see Instagram posts from people that will be like, even though we don't know all the answers. And there that. You know, I feel like you can spot a faith crisis, a mileage by that kind of content, and it's like,

Chandler Roberson [00:48:43] bearing your testimony or like, if I can say that I believe this, I can convince everyone and myself, and it's all gonna be good. But I even remember you sending me a message at the time, and you were like, hey, I know what you're going through. And I was like, she doesn't know. And then you did, though.

Samantha Shelley [00:48:57] Yeah, I don't think. I think we weren't that close at that point. I think we. I don't remember the series of events, but I don't know if we were super close. But reading it, I was like, I'm just gonna message her anyway, because I just feel like she's gonna leave.

Chandler Roberson [00:49:07] That's good that you did.

Samantha Shelley [00:49:08] And I think some people can maybe get to that point and then just be so terrified of leaving that they never do. But I always felt like you. Yeah, you always. You had big dreams, and you, I don't know, seemed. You seem like someone that would leave.

Chandler Roberson [00:49:23] Yeah. Well, I'm glad. But. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:49:25] You got married in the temple, right?

Chandler Roberson [00:49:26] I did. Yeah. So we got married in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:49:30] Okay, wait, so you lost your faith and then got married in the temple?

Chandler Roberson [00:49:33] Well, so I would say I was, like 80% out, 20% still believing.

John Dehlin [00:49:40] Really quick, I have to ask you. So you had had, like, three or four major moments of disappointment where the church and or Heavenly Father just really failed you in one regard or another.

Chandler Roberson [00:49:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:54] So I would wonder how reading the CES letter and then losing almost all your faith, that combined with those many moments of disappointment, what that would have been like for you.

Chandler Roberson [00:50:10] Yeah, it was just a great sense of loss. I felt really confused because it was either everything wasn't true and at least there wasn't a God abandoning me, or it was true and it was terrible. So I was, like, having to look at two kind of scary options, but I still hoped. Like, I was still at the point where I was hoping it was real because at least I knew I would be with my family forever. And I think that's the thing that kept me believing is just not having to accept that life ends after death. That was scary for me because the

John Dehlin [00:50:44] Mormon Church teaches that the only way to be with your Family in heaven is if you have a Mormon marriage.

Chandler Roberson [00:50:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:51] And you're sealed to your Mormon parents. And your parents and your siblings and your children and your spouse all remain faithful Mormons. And so it, it's sold as this beautiful positive advantage that if you're Mormon, you get to be with your family forever until you realize that's manufactured scarcity. Because so many other religions are just like, nope, everybody gets to be together in heaven. And then it becomes a nightmare.

Chandler Roberson [00:51:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] With super tragic sad heaven where you feel chained to the church, even if you don't necessarily believe it.

Chandler Roberson [00:51:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:24] Because otherwise you're destroying your eternal family and disappointing all your believing family and friends. Did I get that right?

Chandler Roberson [00:51:30] Yep, exactly right.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:31] It's like the fear is the thing that lives the longest in your brain.

Chandler Roberson [00:51:35] Yes, yes, it totally is.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:37] Did. Just a question. Did you. Because I remember that period of my faith crisis just feeling like I was going insane.

Chandler Roberson [00:51:46] Oh yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:47] Psychologically unwell.

Chandler Roberson [00:51:48] Oh my gosh.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:49] Demons might come and visit me. Like, tell me about like your general day to day mood while going through all of that.

Chandler Roberson [00:51:56] I was super depressed. I was super sad. I just. Distress. I honestly felt like so sad all the time. I remember because I couldn't really talk to anybody. And this is before I started talking to you guys more, but I would do this thing where I would make voice memos on my phone because at least it felt like I was saying it out loud to somebody so that I didn't feel like I was just in my head all the time. And I deleted all the memos after a while, but it was like hard to like, I just see so many. And I was like, this is not working. This is not. This is not fun to go through this alone. But. But even with my first marriage, when we got engaged, I. I was panicked because it didn't feel right to get married and do all those things. Even though I cared about the person, it just felt like the next step. So kind of in the same theme, it was just distress, but just keep moving forward.

Samantha Shelley [00:52:55] Well, you've been sold this fairy tale. And I like what you said before about how you realize there were kind of two options, which was like, this isn't true or it's true. And it's terrible because there really is a threshold you cross with like how much information you've been exposed to, where you're like, even if there is somehow a solution that like makes this all work together, it's so radically different from the dream I was sold my whole life. And it's Not. It's barely recognizable from, like, the church I thought I was in.

Chandler Roberson [00:53:23] Oh, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:53:24] So even that's why I just think being an apologist has got to be the absolute worst.

Chandler Roberson [00:53:28] I agree.

Samantha Shelley [00:53:29] Worst thing, because even spending, like, some time in that space, it just is. It's just horrifying. I remember, like, a very specific, like, white hot terror that would, like, live in my body around that time that is, like, I don't know, maybe it's come up a few other times in my life, but I still look back on it and, like, shudder to remember, like, this. The terror that is, like, in you.

Chandler Roberson [00:53:49] Yeah, you just feel sick and scared all the time. And before, even if God wasn't answering or replying, it felt like I hoped at least someone was hearing me. But I think it was just the most alone I'd ever felt and just confused. Like I knew nothing about anything anymore. Like, everything I thought about existence was immediately gone. And that's just a dark place to be. And it's hard to explain it to somebody if you haven't been there, I guess.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:18] Did you have a lot of the, like, on your knees, please give me anything prayers?

Chandler Roberson [00:54:24] Yeah, I had a lot more of those prayers. I even talked to Tanner once, and that was kind of his thing, as he said he did that, and so I tried doing that too, and I was still getting nothing. And I think the faith crisis, when I felt like I was losing everything right after I'd been married, it was kind of the last straw for me because I was thinking, this is the worst I've ever felt. This is the most alone I've ever felt. And if you want me to continue to be part of your church and help you and. And give my life to you, you know, talking to God, please just give me something. Just give me some shred, like one shred of evidence that can prove that this is all going to be okay. And it was kind of the last just silence where nothing happened again. So, I mean, it was kind of like my third and final attempt at show me anything and I'll do anything you want. And it was nothing. And so how can you really go on after that many attempts that were like desperate attempts in loneliness and feeling nothing? I mean, people would tell me, oh, you can't tempt God for answers and you can't do all these things. But I don't feel like that's what I was doing. I was always trying to be humble and trying to just have comfort. So if. If it's okay for people, once again, to find their car keys because of God, it should be okay for me to ask for just a warmness or an answer of some kind.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:45] And especially, well, you had seen going clear. So I. I feel like you'd already confronted a question that is so big, which is like, what if this isn't true? Yeah, I do feel like that is like such a. A key threshold. And you. You'd presumably got an understanding of, like, what it looks like for people to, like, be in a cult and not. Not feel like they can leave even when they're finding this evidence.

Chandler Roberson [00:56:13] Yeah, I'd seen a video of different people bearing their testimonies about their churches, their religions. And that was video that was really impactful for me because I. For the first time, you feel so special as a Mormon. You feel like we have all the answers and we know everything. That was the first time I felt, like, not special anymore. Like, officially not special. I was like, they all sound like exactly what I sound like when I'm going up there. How is this unique? And then there's that threshold that even if it is true, you realize, I, for me, at least, I realized even if it is true, I don't want to be a part of this thing because it's cruel. It's cruel to so many different types of people. When you're a Mormon, you. You tend not to think about other people's experiences as much as your own. Like, if it's working for you, then it's a great religion. But there was a letter, and I. And I'm not going to remember his name or anything, but there was a black man who had written a letter to the prophet at the time, and he was faithful. And it was about not understanding why he couldn't have the priesthood.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:14] Is it Lori Nelson's name?

John Dehlin [00:57:17] I don't think Larry Nelson was black. Wait, no, that is a letter.

Chandler Roberson [00:57:21] Yeah, that's something similar.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:22] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [00:57:23] But anyways, there's a letter.

John Dehlin [00:57:25] And so he wrote, asking.

Chandler Roberson [00:57:27] He. He just had written a letter to the prophet at the time, you know, saying that he was a faithful member and he's given everything for the church. And he kind of went into all the things that you miss out on if you don't have the priesthood, and how he couldn't be, like, sealed to his family and how he couldn't give his children blessings and things like that. And he was just trying to say, I've given everything I have to the church and I will continue, but why is it that I can't have this? Like, why am I not good enough. And the prophet at the time didn't reply to him, but he replied to his bishop and basically said, you know, reply to this guy and keep an eye on him. And I'd seen how the church treated LGBTQ members through Prop 8. My aunt lives in California, and I heard a lot about that. So just seeing that. Yeah, Even if this is true, it's not. No. Not everyone can be accepted here. And I didn't feel like Christ Church as I was taught it was just because it worked for me. And even though, like, I'm a Mormon, I was a Mormon woman, and it didn't work for me, in a lot of ways, it was still so much significantly better than the experience of so many other people. And it was just painful to kind of realize I'd been holding up this structure because it worked for me and ignoring how it hurt other people. And so I just started to feel the responsibility to not stand up for the church anymore because it had hurt so many people that I knew and me, so.

Samantha Shelley [00:58:53] And how many people think it's working for them, but really they're just psychologically dependent on it, and that's all they've ever known?

Chandler Roberson [00:58:59] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:58:59] Yeah, I think about that a lot.

Chandler Roberson [00:59:01] Yeah. It's scary to go outside of what you've known to be reality forever. It's like that quote from what's that one? Truman show, you know, realities. We accept the reality in which we're presented. It's so true, though. It's just, how do you know anything else? How do you have the courage to step outside of that when it's comfortable and outside is scary and you're taught that the world is evil and you're, you know, going to hell or outer darkness if you try to go outside the boat or whatever? So, I mean, there's a lot of programming to make you not go outside.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:36] I remember the boat metaphor was big at that time. It was.

Chandler Roberson [00:59:38] It really was.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:40] And this was all happening while you're engaged.

Chandler Roberson [00:59:43] Engaged and then newly married.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:44] Yeah. Okay. And it's all. Mostly you're just suffering through it alone.

Chandler Roberson [00:59:48] Completely alone.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:49] Did being married make you open up more about it to your husband or.

Chandler Roberson [00:59:55] Not really, because I thought he was still pretty. Believing. And because we were newly married, I was just afraid that I would lose the whole marriage over me not believing anymore. And that felt really embarrassing. So I didn't really talk to him. Yeah, it was just all private. Didn't talk to family. Didn't talk to anybody. There was just. Well, I started to talk to you guys, you and Tanner and Blake, but there just wasn't anywhere to go. The church does not provide places for you to go if you have questions or you're leaving the church or anything like that. There's nothing like that.

Marriage, Losing Faith, and Post-Mormon Life

Samantha Shelley [01:00:31] How did you feel on your wedding day?

Chandler Roberson [01:00:34] Stressed. And you can ask anybody in my family. They felt it too, but I just did not feel ready. And I forgot my recommend when we showed up for the ceiling. And the lady there had. They had to give me another interview, basically. And she was just saying, are you sure you got this done? Are you sure you interviewed? As if, like, I was just pretending that I got it.

Samantha Shelley [01:00:57] That's so stressful.

Chandler Roberson [01:00:58] So it was really embarrassing, but it all worked out. But, yeah, I just didn't feel ready. I cried a lot that day.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:04] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [01:01:04] But luckily, when you cry on your wedding day, nobody thinks you're sad. So, you know, and I feel bad for my ex husband because he's such a good person. Like, this was all on me. So. No, I mean, no, it wasn't his fault. He's a wonderful person.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:22] So you were getting married because you were like, well, it's time. That's the next step. That's what I do. This is nice.

Chandler Roberson [01:01:28] Yeah. And people. That's. It's like a hard answer for a lot of people to accept that it just felt like the right thing to do. But, yeah, that's basically why it just seemed like the right thing to do. And he was cute and he was nice and he treated me well, so that's what I did.

John Dehlin [01:01:43] And so he knew what percentage of your loss of faith when you got married?

Chandler Roberson [01:01:48] None.

John Dehlin [01:01:49] So, like, yeah, that's like, red flag. If you're afraid to tell your fiance that your beliefs have changed, there is a problem. And I'm going to just say Samantha's kind of new. As a co host. We. We generally try not to refer to the Mormon Church as a cult on Mormon Stories podcast because we. We want to make sure that people, number one, we know the term is insulting, and we also want to make sure everyone who listens feels kind of safe. So that's a controversial term. And I. I'm not rebuking you, Samantha. I'm just, like, making sure. Believing listeners that are listening, we don't mean to offend. We try not to do that. There's a whole series on what is a cult with Stephen Hassan or with Luna Corbden. You can go decide for yourself if you think the Mormon Church meets criteria. It's not a big deal, Samantha. But I just go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:45] In my co host defense, though I would personally call it that. I, I know and I generally tried to say hi to my religion, but it was because we're talking about Scientology. So I said other cults referring to Scientology. So that is like implicating Mormonism in that. But yeah, yeah, in my head I was referring to Scientology.

John Dehlin [01:03:00] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:03:01] But yeah, it is my personal opinion that it meets the criteria decently enough.

John Dehlin [01:03:05] Yeah, yeah. And I, and I, I just say to the church, if you, if you don't want people to call you a cult, make it so that people like Chandler aren't afraid to tell her fiance what she. The factual, truthful, historical information that she learned about the church because you, the Mormon church, hid it from her and from all of us, such that she could disclose that and also change her culture around what people's assumptions are about why a wedding might be called off. Because I can imagine once you're, once the invitations have been sent, once the wedding has been scheduled, if you were to have called off the marriage or to have decided not to get married in the temple, what would all of your Mormon friends and family have assumed?

Chandler Roberson [01:03:50] Oh yeah, that we had slipped up or something had happened. We'd had sex. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. And we didn't. So it would have been a real bummer to have people think that. But, but yeah, he. It's just hard because Mormonism, you feel this pressure to get married fast. If you're dating somebody, it's not like a date for a while and figure it out. It's hurry and get married, get into the temple and that that way you can also have sex because then there's not the temptation. And I feel like that's the thing it robs a lot of people of, is the opportunity to date somebody for a long time to actually decide if you want to get married or not. Instead, you rush into marriages. And then there's the shame of if it doesn't work out because you rushed into it, you have to get a divorce, which is also pretty shameful in the church.

John Dehlin [01:04:35] Yeah. And I just can't imagine you carrying that through your wedding day and keeping that from your spouse. It's not that you wanted to be dishones, honest.

Chandler Roberson [01:04:43] No, no, not at all. My, I think the thing I learned from my mom that is the best trait is she is so honest. She has such a, she has so much integrity. And I learned that from my mom. And so there are times like that growing up in the church and then getting married and not being able to tell my spouse something that felt really shameful because I felt like I was withholding the truth, which, you know, feels like a lie. It can be a lie. And it just, it felt like I couldn't ever do everything right because if I was telling the truth and I was losing something and then if I was withholding the truth, then I was not being true to myself. So you're always kind of caught between those things.

John Dehlin [01:05:23] It's a. It's a double bind. Yeah. And what was that like to like have to do the bishop's interviews and go through the temple and to do a. A supposed eternal marriage in a Mormon temple as a non believer?

Chandler Roberson [01:05:39] It was rough. It was so weird because I didn't know that I wasn't going to get to wear my wedding dress when we got sealed. So finding out I had to put on all this stuff and mess up my hair. I had a flower crown so I had to take it off and it kind of ruined my hair. It was, it was just a disappointment. And then having all the interviews with the Bishop and all that to get to that point, it felt. I just felt so guilty that I was lying. Even though I didn't really believe in the thing, I was still just. I just felt like so bad. I feel like I was turning my back on this thing that I'd known forever and that I was tricking, I guess, my husband by not telling him. But that's not, it's not how I would have intended it. It's just I didn't know what choice I had if I wanted to stay with him.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:25] And you are still keeping all the rules like it's. It.

Chandler Roberson [01:06:29] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:29] It sucks that you're feeling so guilty because you just don't believe something that is supposed to be true that you have put lots of time into trying to believe.

Chandler Roberson [01:06:38] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:06:40] Yeah. And it's not a great way to start a marriage.

Chandler Roberson [01:06:43] No, it's not. So it's not fair to either people, that's for sure.

John Dehlin [01:06:47] Yeah. And this is on the church because the Mormon Church has for over a hundred years. It knew about the Book of Abraham in 1912. It was on the COVID of the Wall Street. This is on the COVID of the New York Times. It knew about the anachronisms in the Book of Mormon by 1922, because B H Roberts put the entire First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve and all the general authorities on notice that the Book of Mormon presented, had the view of the Hebrews, all that stuff. They knew that and then Fawn Brody comes out with no man Knows my history in 1945. She is the. The prophet's niece and she talks about the polygamy and the stone in the hat and everything. And they chose to excommunicate her. And we just had an, you know, foretelling the truth and then hide it from the members forever. And we just did an amazing multi hour interview with Newell Bringhurst about his biography on Fawn McKay Brody. And if you have not listened to that, she is a legend. Not just a female legend, a legend, bar none. She is an OG in all respects for writing that book. No man Knows my history. Pre Internet. Yeah. Pre Tanners without, you know. Yeah. Just incredible. Anyway, check out that. Check out that episode. No man knows my history. We'll put a link to it here. But anyway, it's the church's fault. They put you in that position. They put your husband in that position. Anybody who's wanting, like you lied in your temple. You deceived people. No, nope, none of that. None of those.

Chandler Roberson [01:08:25] And it's so hard because people always say, oh, you're just blaming the church. And like, I, I don't mean to blame them, but I don't really see what choice I had. It's kind of the theme of my life is thinking I was making choices. And then I look back and I'm thinking like I felt like I was possessed or something. Like it didn't feel like it was me making the choices because once again, I didn't have many options. It was already laid out for me. So I don't mean to blame the church, but I also think they should be held somewhat accountable for the things that people go through on their behalf.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you start off your marriage super sad and traumatized again.

Chandler Roberson [01:09:07] Yep. Yep. So it's. It's great and terrible all at the same time. But pretty quickly there was a conversation that I had or a group text between I think it was Sam Tanner and our friend Blake and I, just about some of our questions. And I had been super sick this one time and I'd left my phone out and my ex husband was not like a snoopy person, but I. I knew he could sense that something was going on and I wasn't telling him anything. And so I had got up and I saw that he was just glancing at it and we both just knew that he knew at that point that I was done. And so he said, we can talk about this basically. But, you know, we waited until I felt better because I was Sick at the time. And then just from then on, we just had a lot of discussions about things. And it turned out that he felt pretty similarly to me about a lot of the issues that I had.

John Dehlin [01:10:06] Your husband did.

Chandler Roberson [01:10:07] He did, yeah. So it was nice once it was kind of out there to know that I had somebody that I could confide in. And we just figured out, yeah, we both feel pretty similarly. He was done with the church as well. He had a pretty intense family as well. Good people, but definitely pretty strong in the church. So there was a lot of pressure on him to stay believing. But eventually, I think he told his family. I think he had announced it to his family at one point. I don't remember exactly, but they were still kind and they still supported us all. They would always invite us to things still like General Conference and whatnot. But they were better than we expected. So that was nice. But. So there was a period of time where him and I were both on the same page as far as beliefs go. But once we got past that, for me, it was kind of this realization that I was only 22 when I got married. And that's so young. As a Mormon girl, I thought that was actually kind of old. I thought, like, oh, I'd be married when I was, you know, 21. 22 or whatever. 21, and I was 22. But that just all of a sudden hit me that. That I had missed out on a lot of regular life experiences and not to say I didn't care about my ex husband, but I just felt like I had missed out on a lot and that we were too young to make a good decision if we were ready to get married. Like I said, we dated for such a short period of time, and there's no opportunity for you guys to just date for a really long time and figure out if you're compatible or not. So then I started to have the guilt of realizing maybe this wasn't a good decision to get married, which you really.

Samantha Shelley [01:11:51] I got married at 22 as well, and I really relate to that. Like. Like, it's kind of on the older side in, you know, byu, Idaho culture and how the church has been historically. But you really. You only have what the church has taught you about what to look for in a spouse. And you have absolutely zero concept of marriage. You might think you do.

Chandler Roberson [01:12:14] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:15] But I look back now and I think I had. It's like the Dunning Kruger effect, right? Where, like, the more, you know, the more you realize you don't know. I look back and think I knew absolutely nothing about what it took to make a relationship work. But as far as the church is concerned, you're 22. They're a returned missionary.

Chandler Roberson [01:12:33] You've.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:33] You do everything right. So, like, that's the next step.

Chandler Roberson [01:12:36] Yeah. Like, what more do you need?

Samantha Shelley [01:12:38] But, yeah.

Chandler Roberson [01:12:39] Yeah. Once again, you have people getting married that your brain isn't even fully developed, and you're getting married. You're making that type of a commitment at that age. It's really bizarre.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:48] I think a lot about how. How intergenerational that phenomenon is. So, like, the people that you're looking to, like, let's say the church leaders for advice on marriage and what to look for in a spouse, they have most likely sought out a spouse with even less kind of data. Because I feel like the further you go back in Mormon history, the quicker people would get married and the less they were looking for. And if anything, it's like the way that we would date was kind of modern for, like, Mormonism throughout its history. You know, like, it used to just be like, I'm gonna set you up with my grandson. You're pretty enough. And then, boom. Like, yeah, it's madness. You have no idea.

Chandler Roberson [01:13:30] Yeah, it really is. So. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:34] What was it? You don't have to answer. I don't know what you want to share, but, like, what was it like transitioning to suddenly being allowed to be sexual after all the experiences you'd had? And that being so tied to so much guilt?

Chandler Roberson [01:13:46] It wasn't good at all. It was a huge problem, for sure. It was so confusing for me because all of my life, I had felt such intense shame and guilt for feeling those things. And then all of a sudden, it's like, red light, green light. Right. All of a sudden, it's. You're supposed to be this way all the time, go crazy. And that just didn't work for me. I didn't know how to process feeling okay with that. So that marriage for sure, suffered because of that guilt. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:20] And you. So you felt guilty about them not being sexual enough?

Chandler Roberson [01:14:23] Yeah, I think it was just. I felt shame around sex still. So it was like, even though I was a married person, I would still cry. I would still feel, like, that response of shame after something had happened, because I'd always felt that way, and my brain just couldn't change it over, like some people are more able to do.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:43] That's what drives me crazy is like, there's no understanding from the LDS Church that you. You can't build these neural pathways throughout a Lifetime of sex and shame and then just expect them to be gone on a wedding night.

Chandler Roberson [01:14:55] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:56] Like, who's. Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [01:14:58] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:58] It's a lot.

John Dehlin [01:15:01] And I. I think people that haven't experienced it probably don't understand why sex isn't just super amazing because you get to have sex, Right.

Chandler Roberson [01:15:09] Yeah. And the hard part is, is you expect it to be that easy. You're just, all right, I'm gonna feel great. And I know some people do, but I know a lot of people don't. Yeah. And I just wasn't one of those people. I thought, it's gonna be great. And, yeah, the shame just came right back as if nothing had changed. Because, I mean, in a way, what's the difference? Like, you're just married. In that case, it's not really that different. Is if. If. If it's a high school boyfriend that you love or it's someone you're married to, the results kind of the same thing. So the shame.

John Dehlin [01:15:38] But someone would say, you have permission now from the bishop and the state president and the church.

Chandler Roberson [01:15:42] Yeah. But I guess it doesn't. So many formative years of telling yourself that it's wrong and shameful and gross and dirty and irresponsible can't just be, you know, washed away. So that was really difficult.

Samantha Shelley [01:15:54] Sorry. No, you're fine just getting into the conversation. But it's like your eroticism also gets built up around this, you know, doing. Doing things that are wrong. And so then having permission can be, like, the least sexual thing in the world, I think, for a lot of people. Least sexy thing in the world. True.

John Dehlin [01:16:15] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:16:16] So it's so classic patriarchy to be like, switch off everything sexual about yourself, but then the minute that a man, you know, owns you, then you need to be a hot little slot all the time.

Chandler Roberson [01:16:26] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:16:26] Sorry.

Chandler Roberson [01:16:28] But you're not wrong. So that was a rough thing to figure out when I got into that marriage.

John Dehlin [01:16:35] Yeah. Oh, I'm so sorry. And again, these are all things that church could really fix quite easily, I think.

Chandler Roberson [01:16:42] So.

John Dehlin [01:16:43] And. And it's. There's. This is. It's an epidemic. I mean, this is almost. Almost every interview.

Chandler Roberson [01:16:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:49] I do on Mormon stories. The. The women often feel as you do.

Chandler Roberson [01:16:52] Yeah. Most. Most of my friends have had similar experiences too, so I know I'm definitely one of many.

John Dehlin [01:16:59] Yeah. Oh, okay. So how did things continue?

Chandler Roberson [01:17:05] So basically, it just got to the point where I accepted that I was too young to have made that decision and that I love this person, but I felt like there was just more to life that I needed to experience and so I had to break it to him. And I think he felt.

John Dehlin [01:17:24] So you love, you loved him. Yeah, but you just felt. I got, I did this too early.

Chandler Roberson [01:17:29] I just felt like him and I were more friends instead of like a romantic relationship maybe. But once again, when you're dating, you're not looking for all those details in a relationship. It's as long as they're an RM and they hold the priesthood and that's pretty much like the requirements, I think. So as long as they're those things, then that's all that matters. You're not really looking for anything outside of that or they're good looking. But yeah, so I just hadn't really ever thought we weren't dating for long enough for me to consider those things. So I just felt like, all right, this is going to be better for both of us because I was struggling in a lot of ways. I, I mean sexually it was like impossible for me to figure that out. And so I like was just realizing this isn't fair to the person I'm with to have to be drug along with, with me through this. At least they can go off and heal and find somebody else and things like that. So.

John Dehlin [01:18:24] And maybe he wasn't totally done with the church yet.

Chandler Roberson [01:18:27] He was, he was, he was done with the church. Yeah. So. And it was nice that we saw eye to eye on that. But I think even when you both see eye to eye on that, then you realize there's still other things in a marriage that even if you both agree that you don't believe in the church that aren't going to be compatible.

John Dehlin [01:18:44] And again, I'm just going to call it out that if the Mormon church, you know, when you serve a Mormon mission, the last thing you do on your mission is you interview with your, with your mission president before you leave. And did you have this interview with your mission president and do you know what I'm about to say?

Chandler Roberson [01:19:03] I think I know what you're going to say, but I didn't have the interview. They kind of just set me off.

John Dehlin [01:19:06] What am I going to say?

Chandler Roberson [01:19:09] Is it about the first thing you got to get married?

John Dehlin [01:19:11] Basically, yeah, yeah, yeah. The first thing you're told is get married and have kids. You know what I mean? And so, so at BYU and byu, Idaho and Hawaii, like you get home and you're looking for your spouse and you marry as soon as you can. Super short courtship, super short engagement because you can't have sex and then you get married and that's on the church, because not only are they hiding things from people and, and so you were set up.

Chandler Roberson [01:19:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:19:39] In terms of, of your beliefs crumbling. That's on the church, not on you. You're also set up from the standpoint of you not really knowing yourself, let alone your husband in your relationship well enough to make that sort of a lifelong commitment.

Chandler Roberson [01:19:58] Yes, true. Yep. Exactly true. Yeah, yeah, there was just.

John Dehlin [01:20:02] Because these are things that in a normal, healthy courtship you probably could have figured out.

Chandler Roberson [01:20:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:20:09] And that's not, you know, a lot of my listeners are like, John, you're advocating for sexual promiscuity and irresponsibility. No, you know, I'm advocating for healthy developmental, normative sexual development and processes.

Chandler Roberson [01:20:24] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:25] And I, and I can say it sounds crazy if sex is one of the top three reasons people get divorced. It's, it's your, your own sexual attractions, your own sexual template and your sexual compatibility with the person you're going to be married to is probably a pretty important thing to establish prior to a lifelong commitment, not after. Now, I'm not, you know, I'm not, you know. Tell me I'm crazy, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [01:20:52] No, I think you'd be crazy to say anything else. Not that everyone can make their own decisions in life, but I mean, what, what is sexual promiscuity? I think the thing you don't want to be advocating for is non consensual sex. Sex that is like reckless, like with your health or with birth control, stuff like that. But, you know, I don't think you should be apologizing for suggesting that sexual compatibility is important to discover prior to committing to someone for eternity. In theory.

Chandler Roberson [01:21:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:21] And after doing this interview with, with Lena and Sal, your own sexual attractions, like there's one thing whether you think someone's cute or aesthetically attractive, but your actual sexual attraction is something that if you don't have some sort of experimentation with, you don't know.

Chandler Roberson [01:21:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:38] And how many people have I interviewed and tens of thousands do I know about that got married only to find they actually weren't sexually attracted to the entire gender of the person to whom they married. Right.

Chandler Roberson [01:21:52] Yeah, no, it's very common. And I think that it just. Yeah. Once again, it just didn't give us the opportunity to date and figure those things out. And because we weren't allowed to have a sexual relationship before getting married, I wasn't able to realize the work that I still needed to do to get to a place where I could have a healthy sexual relationship. And that really Wasn't fair to either of us in that situation.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:17] It's like you were never allowed to own your sexuality because then even when you're married, you feel responsible for this other person's, you know, sexual fulfillment. And. Oh, yeah, it's also Mormonism. There's not. You're not really allowed to explore your own sexuality. And so it's just all constantly giving your sexuality to someone else or like, not owning your own sexuality.

Chandler Roberson [01:22:39] Mm. Constantly. It's like never. Your body just never feels like it's your own. I think that was something I didn't have the words for until even recently, but I just never felt like I was my own. I was always some. A man's, you know, whether it's your husband or your dad's or your. The God's child. It's just you're always a man's something and you're never your own.

Samantha Shelley [01:23:03] And combined with your experiences with sexual assault, it's like, no wonder you want to exert some kind of control over your body and foods. A way that you have that control as a woman. Woman, Yep.

Chandler Roberson [01:23:12] For sure it was. Yeah. And not processing a lot of that sexual trauma was a huge. It had a huge impact on that too.

Samantha Shelley [01:23:23] It's almost like you not only didn't process it, but you kind of like, compounded the trauma because then there was shame. Well, I guess that's actually true for people outside of religion too, but, you

Chandler Roberson [01:23:32] know, but definitely true.

Samantha Shelley [01:23:33] It's like, next level, adding suffering.

John Dehlin [01:23:36] Yeah. And. And I think. I don't want to belabor this point, but the fact that the Mormon Church prohibits and even demonizes masturbation means that you can, literally. Because they're like. Well, you should be able to figure it out. Like if. If you're. If you're a woman as an example, and you never even try that. And there are many Mormon women that make it to marriage without ever even having masturbated before or had any sort of orgasm ever again. That makes it even harder for you to know beforehand anything about your sexuality.

Chandler Roberson [01:24:12] You know, nothing. Yeah. And all my prior experiences were just that it's shameful or something you don't want. So that's all I had to work with.

John Dehlin [01:24:21] And I mean, I don't mean to disclose for my mom, but she would be okay with me saying this. It wasn't just not only until her marriage that she had never had an orgasm. It was probably 15 years into her marriage before she ever had an orgasm. And that's not uncommon for a woman either.

Chandler Roberson [01:24:41] Nope. Hear about that frequently too.

John Dehlin [01:24:44] Have we beat this horse dead yet? Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [01:24:47] The sexuality.

John Dehlin [01:24:48] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:24:48] I mean, it's huge. Like you said, like, there's a reason it comes up in every person's interview.

Chandler Roberson [01:24:52] Yeah. I think it has so much of an effect on so many Mormon people, but Mormon women in particular. I just feel like it's been such a huge part of my life. Everything's tied to. It's kind of the best thing about me and the worst thing about me that's always how I felt, is that I'm a sexual person, that I'm a woman. That's like the best. But it's also the most embarrassing and terrible thing that I have this power over men somehow and that they just can't control themselves and it's. I should keep it in check. So it's weird to hold those two thoughts all at the same time as, like, this is great, this is horrible. This is great. This is horrible. Don't know how you land on that. It's great when you're always feeling shame.

Samantha Shelley [01:25:30] Yeah. It's like you're objectified by this patriarchal religion and taught that your primary worth is as a spouse and a baby machine.

Chandler Roberson [01:25:39] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:25:40] And then you never get to, like, claim that sexuality for yourself.

Chandler Roberson [01:25:44] Yeah. And the amount of therapy that friends of mine that have had to go to in their marriages, Mormon marriages, it's just, I would say, like most. So there's something wrong that needs to be addressed or done differently and I don't have any real faith that that will happen, especially after, you know, Natasha. Excommunication. But there's just a problem and it's. It hurts me to know it's going on now and it's. It's impacting people right now and it's going to affect them for their entire lives. So. Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty important matter subject.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:19] I have a kind of a backtracking question. There's a bit getting away from sexuality. But so in the time period between you kind of losing all your faith and when you decided to get divorced, first of all, how long was that time period?

Chandler Roberson [01:26:36] So from when I lost my faith to when I was first divorced?

Samantha Shelley [01:26:39] Well, I guess you kind of had lost your faith before your marriage. Right. So. Well, when did. When were you and your husband like, on the same page?

Chandler Roberson [01:26:48] Probably, like, I would say six months into the marriage.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:51] Okay. And then you got divorced like two

Chandler Roberson [01:26:54] years into the marriage.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:55] Okay. So what was that period of time, like, where, like, you'd lost your faith? You even, like, Had a husband who was kind of on the same page as you, but, like, did you still feel lost? What did you think about life and how was your mood?

Chandler Roberson [01:27:10] And it was all over the place. It was just a really scary time. I. I honestly don't even remember that much of it now, just because it felt like almost like I was sleepwalking. I didn't know what to make of anything. I didn't know what to believe about the future, who I was about any. I just. It felt like I truly knew nothing. I felt like I was just plopped into the world and like I had a baby brain or something. I just. I felt so confused. And I think it was scary because, like I said, my mom has so much integrity, and I've always had that integrity, but mostly because I thought there was a God watching me. And when all of a sudden I didn't feel like there was this God watching me, you kind of have to reassess what is okay. And so once you're like, well, I guess if nothing matters, then if I. Not to say I did any of these things, but, like, I could steal something and what does it matter? Because there's no God. And so there was just this really confusing, tricky part of that time period where I was just having to redefine what is good and what is not good and simplify what I even believed in. But, you know, I came to the conclusion, obviously, that doing the right thing is the right thing just because it's right, not because somebody's watching. And I think that's true integrity. But it was. That was a horrible. That's a time of. I look back on my life with just a lot of sadness. I just felt like I was taking this wonderful person down with me. And I just. I had no goals. I just didn't know who I was. Because the church was everything. It was what I spent all my time thinking about. It was what I gave all my energy to. Yeah, every. Everything about me was wrapped into the church. So I just felt like nothing pretty much.

Samantha Shelley [01:28:54] Were there any.

John Dehlin [01:28:55] Can I just. Will you put it. Put a pin, because I really want to hear the next question you're about to ask. I just have to reinforce one point we've kind of been making all along. Because remember during those teen years where you're feeling all that sexual shame, your response. And when you weren't getting answers from Heavenly Father, your response was, I'll try harder. I'll try harder. I'll try harder with the church. And so by the time you're now a young adult, the church is, the church had conditioned you to view the church as everything and you had given everything. And so that makes it just so much more brutal.

Chandler Roberson [01:29:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:34] Than when you, when, when the Mormon world comes unraveled.

Chandler Roberson [01:29:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:37] Because this wasn't just like, oh, it's a set of beliefs that I choose to follow because it helps me be a good person.

Chandler Roberson [01:29:44] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:29:44] It's your idea. It's your entire identity. It's your friendships, it's your family, it's your relationships, it's. It's your morality, it's your spirituality.

Chandler Roberson [01:29:51] It's.

John Dehlin [01:29:51] It's what?

Chandler Roberson [01:29:52] It's, it's everything. I mean, that's the only word. It's. It's everything. It's felt like having sort of a version of parents, I guess, that always told you how to feel, think what to believe, that everything's okay. It just gives you all the direction. It's a built in community. It's all those things. So all of a sudden it's just like true silence. Like, even though I never had answers, I just always hope that something is still there. And it was the first time I ever had to come to terms with. I'm just by myself. I'm just alone. And it's, it's a, I don't know if there's even a good word for it. It's just empty. You just feel empty and hopeless. And I, I think I did feel, I don't know if it's like triggering for people, but like I did feel somewhat suicidal a lot of the time. Not that I had any plan or intention on doing that, but I just kept feeling like, what's the point? I just had lost everything. I was afraid I was going to lose my family. I was afraid I was going to lose my friends, the community that I'd spent all my time with growing up and I was going to let them down. So, yeah, I just thought a lot about what's the point of being alive if the church isn't true, then nothing else matters. So I lost a lot of myself. It was just dark. Yeah, that was a rough period.

John Dehlin [01:31:10] Samantha, jumping to you in just one sec. We'll never see a Methodist Stories podcast or Lutheran Stories podcast or an Episcopalian Stories podcast or Utilitarian Stories podcast. Nobody who hasn't lived in a high demand religion has any idea why losing your faith in and or leaving that religion would cause you to potentially want to die by suicide. Unless you yourself have experienced it. No one can get it. And that's why we're over 1500 episodes into Mormon Stories podcast and we're more popular than ever because it's so brutal.

Chandler Roberson [01:31:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you think you're the only person and you're just alone, and that's just not true. But you believe it. And even in the beginning, I think I still felt a bit like blaming myself for, like being hard on myself for believing everything and not asking questions. And I think we all do that. Like, we all think, why did I not ask? Or why did I not dig?

John Dehlin [01:32:08] And, and they don't see it earlier.

Chandler Roberson [01:32:09] Yeah, you feel stupid. And I think a lot of people. Yeah. A lot of look at you and think, like, why were you so stupid? How could you have.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:16] Like I was four. Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [01:32:18] I mean, what, how could I have known?

Samantha Shelley [01:32:20] At what point in your childhood when everyone is telling you, just believe, just believe, just believe, don't question. Questioning fact.

Chandler Roberson [01:32:25] Yeah. And it's not an option to be

Samantha Shelley [01:32:28] some kind of genius four year old.

Chandler Roberson [01:32:30] Exactly. So. And there's so many smart people around you, so you just look at them and you think they're smart. So this all makes sense. So, yeah, it was hard being mad at myself for thinking about the. And yeah. Why did I not try harder to ask more questions? So, yeah. Rough time.

John Dehlin [01:32:47] Brutal.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:49] Well, now, thinking about the, the suicidal feeling you can have when you leave a Hydermon religion, which I'm also familiar with, I often think about how there's. We're so wired to protect our beliefs at all costs and like, we're a tribal species and we, we come, you know, from ancestors who. We're in these tribes with shared beliefs and because everything in us is so geared towards getting us to maintain beliefs and stay in the tribe, it's almost like a little bit unprecedented in nature for us to, to leave. So it, it kind of feels like a, A new. Well, I mean, it's not new, but yeah. I don't know, it feels like a new problem in a way. I mean, especially obviously now with the Internet and stuff. It's like we have nothing in our brains to prepare ourselves really for like such an intense loss of worldview.

Chandler Roberson [01:33:42] Oh, yeah. I don't think anyone could be prepared for what it is unless you, you know, you live most of your life in it and then you lose it. So. Yeah, but that's why it's so, it's so harsh and offensive when people who really don't know anything about you want to say that, oh, you just didn't try hard enough or you just didn't want to believe in it, or you didn't take it seriously or wanted to sin. You wanted to sin or whatever. They don't see those weeks, days, months, whatever, years of loneliness, the. The suicidal feelings. And I just. I just wish people would have more empathy. They don't know how lonely it can be to be going through that, to lose everything. It's. It's not a choice. It's not something. I mean, it can be a choice. Sometimes Mormonism just isn't for certain people, and that's a valid reason in itself. But for the people who suffer through it, it's. It's not easy. It's lonely.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:34] And I don't think people realize how much you've already shamed yourself. Like, I even remember I was trying so hard and, like, reading the scriptures for hours and shaming myself because I was doing too much, and I was like, oh, I just need to be more chill, and why can't I just be more relaxed and let things go? Yeah, you've, like, tried every angle.

Chandler Roberson [01:34:51] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:52] The question I was going to ask before is, in that period where you were still married and didn't believe and you're kind of lost. Was there, and maybe you were too depressed for this to be on your mind, but was there any, like, I don't know, like, resources that you saw out or, like, threads you pulled at in terms of, like, trying to figure out what was true? Like, I remember I got really into Sam Harris for a while, and that was really helpful. Like, what kind of things, like, captured your attention at that time?

Chandler Roberson [01:35:22] Good question. I feel like it took me a while to start embracing other things. There was a book that I read, and I honestly don't remember what it was now, but Dalai Lama had a bunch of parts in there, and I think I. I liked a lot of aspects about Buddhism, and I think just simplifying down to believing, you know, I'm just gonna do others no harm and no harm to myself and try to leave the world better than it was. How I found was just that simple for me, because everything was just so much noise growing up, every. Just all the requirements and all the things you have to believe and do and the upkeep. And so for me, it was like, the simpler, the better. But I did actually get into the Sam Harris podcast for a while there, too, at first. But I think just talking to friends that were going through the same thing and then getting into Facebook groups was really helpful for. For me, at least, just finding that community aspect again was more important than filling beliefs in I guess for me at that point.

John Dehlin [01:36:25] Any other resources, Mormon related resources besides CES letter that were helpful to you during that time? It's fine if there weren't any.

Chandler Roberson [01:36:34] I think that was the main one. I mean, occasionally Tanner would send me a link for certain things or there would be like a directory that he had put together that had information. But I think the CS letter pretty much covered everything.

John Dehlin [01:36:45] You haven't gotten into like YouTube or podcasts or anything like that?

Chandler Roberson [01:36:48] Not yet. I mean, I'm trying to think of when I first started listening to Mormon Stories and it wouldn't have been, you know what? No, it would have been when I was married to him then. Because the Tom Phillips episode was the one that was like the final straw for me. That was like, about that.

John Dehlin [01:37:03] Tell the listeners what that is.

Chandler Roberson [01:37:05] So the Tom Phillips episode was about the. The second anointing. And it's just. I mean, I don't know how to perfectly describe the second anointing, but it's like a secret ceremony for basically Mormon elite. But I just. I didn't know anything about that. I didn't even know that existed. I had all my stuff on my shelf. And so when I heard that, it was just this disappointment that there was this level of secrecy and encouraging that people can lie about things within the church if it's for a. In their opinion, a good reason. That just wasn't cool to me at all. And I just hearing his experience, particularly how he thought he was going to see Christ or something that day, and then how he didn't, and how he was kind of just stuck with that off feeling that it wasn't what he thought it was going to be. I think that was the first time I'd heard somebody else put it that way. And I realized if it's that way up at the top, it's not going to get much better where I am. So that was a really. So your podcast actually would have been during that time period as well.

John Dehlin [01:38:13] I'll add that episode to the show notes.

Chandler Roberson [01:38:15] Okay. It's a good one. It's heavy one, but it's good.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:17] I think that was the first one I listened to of yours.

John Dehlin [01:38:20] Yeah. Because it's British.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:22] Must have been why it was much more accessible than your usual Americanized content. John.

John Dehlin [01:38:27] Well, all right.

Chandler Roberson [01:38:28] Yeah. So Mormon Stories was super helpful.

John Dehlin [01:38:31] And I will say I wasn't fishing for that.

Chandler Roberson [01:38:33] I didn't think you were, but I'm glad you brought it up.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:35] We had a Mormon Stories binge face.

Chandler Roberson [01:38:37] Yeah. No, for. For sure. I It was the thing I listened to on repeat during the period where I was alone. And then after we were divorced, I mean, it felt like the. It felt like a friend because, you know, you can't. Even if you have a group of friends in a text, you don't want to constantly be every second saying, here's how I'm feeling. I'm feeling, like, so hopeless, and I'm feeling suicidal. So when you listen to podcasts like Mormon Stories and Lindsay Hansen park, her podcast, Polygamy, I love her so much. She was such an example to me when I was coming out of the church. I mean, there was a time that I wrote her a Facebook message and she replied instantly and was so nice, and I just admire her so, so much. But, yeah, that was also. Your Polygmy was also a really good resource. But it was nice to have those podcasts because it felt like a constant friend if I didn't want to be a burden to, like, other people in my life. So podcasts are really helpful.

John Dehlin [01:39:33] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:34] So you.

John Dehlin [01:39:35] I guess you had to go through the painful stigma of getting divorced in Mormonism.

Chandler Roberson [01:39:41] Yep. Not fun. Not fun at all. You definitely feel like a failure. But I. When I got divorced, it was the first time in my life that I was free. I guess you could say I didn't believe anymore. I didn't have anything that was pressing me on how to live or how to think, how to act. It was the first time in my life I could start asking myself what I wanted. And I think it's strange to think that so many people don't ask themselves that question, what do I want in their lives when you're Mormon. But it felt really freeing to be just on my own and have permission to do basically whatever I wanted. So it was maybe one of the best time periods of my life was when I was newly divorced and I was just my own person finally. Like, I owned my body. I had my own space. I can make my own new friends, and my life was just my own. And I became really intentional about the choices I was making for the first time. And it just felt. Yeah, there's a. Just. I look back on that time period as so wonderful. That's just bright.

John Dehlin [01:40:48] Wow.

Chandler Roberson [01:40:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:49] So you went from feeling suicidal to, like, happier than ever.

Chandler Roberson [01:40:54] Yeah, it was.

John Dehlin [01:40:55] It was a weird transition, tangled episode where she's, like, sobbing and then doing carpentry.

Chandler Roberson [01:40:59] Oh, my gosh. It's exactly right, though. It was kind of just always, what is it gonna be? But. And I say this, and I don't think it's like this for everyone, but I almost feel like I just woke up one day and was just. I just felt different. I just felt like, why? Why am I giving this so much more thought and like I'm free and I just. I don't know, I just felt like one day I just felt differently. And not to say there was still unprocessed trauma in the background, but I was able to kind of put it to the side and just live my life for a time period. And that was super wonderful. Had a lot of great fun, awesome experiences that like adults can have. I just feel like a lot of Mormons child childhood and young adult life is kind of blurred together. You don't really have a young adult life. That's typical. So it was cool to get to have some experiences.

Samantha Shelley [01:41:49] That is so true. Yeah, yeah. Because you do like little kid style dating quickly makes them feel young.

Chandler Roberson [01:41:56] Yeah, yeah. Finger paints.

Samantha Shelley [01:41:58] I remember that I had a similar experience right after divorce. Just that period of like, the pain is still there and there's still grief and trauma, but just like so much freedom after you've like felt trapped for so long just to feel free and you're like, it doesn't really matter.

Chandler Roberson [01:42:13] Yeah, yeah. You just, you're ready to kind of push it to the side and just enjoy yourself. And I'm really thankful for that, that portion of my life.

Samantha Shelley [01:42:21] And it's like you're allowed to be present fully for the first time because you're not doing everything with some like, heavenly pursuit in mind.

Chandler Roberson [01:42:28] When you're not going out with people and thinking on the first time seeing them, am I going to marry this person? Is this person a good fit for me? You can just have fun. So yeah, being intentional for the first time and reading the Power of Now was also crucial to my healing and moving forward.

Samantha Shelley [01:42:44] Yep. And then A New Earth was equally reading. I forget that you also love Eckhart Tol.

Chandler Roberson [01:42:50] Yeah. So that was really helpful to me, just enjoying what I was doing. Because I think when you're Mormon, you're always focused on the afterlife. You're always thinking about what you're doing now, how it's going to impact you in the afterlife. So you're not really present because everything you do here is just kind of written off as well. It won't matter as much in, you know, in the afterlife or whatever. And so I think it doesn't give you the opportunity to focus on the current life and the one that you're certain that you have. So that was a really. That was a gift to kind of get to enjoy the life. I know. I get.

Life After the Church, Second Marriage, and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [01:43:26] So what can go wrong? Like you were living the dream, right?

Chandler Roberson [01:43:31] No, it was, it was going great. And you felt.

John Dehlin [01:43:34] I think in your outline you also mentioned you're not wearing. At some point you got to stop wearing garments.

Chandler Roberson [01:43:39] Yes, that was the first thing to go. To be honest. Garments was not a hard one for me to get rid of.

John Dehlin [01:43:44] I heard someone describe it as.

Chandler Roberson [01:43:47] Yep, pretty much. I had no, like, no pains getting rid of the garments or paying tithing done with that.

John Dehlin [01:43:54] And then you got to date non Mormon men or. Or whatever.

Chandler Roberson [01:43:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:00] And even, you know, I guess there was some word of wisdom stuff in there.

Chandler Roberson [01:44:04] Yeah, I mean, I tried a little bit of everything and got to have good experiences. I mean, growing up, I thought like, if you drank alcohol or if you smoked marijuana or anything like that, you were instantly a bad person and you were a different person. And being someone who has a lot of issues with letting go of control, I was really intimidated by those things. But honestly. And I know everyone's different. Some people don't want to try it and some people have bad experiences. But for me, it was a good experience to get to try alcohol and those things because it was just another learning experience for me that I'm not a different person. I'm not out of control. And it's okay to be a little out of. A little out of control sometimes is not going to kill you because really we're not in control. We just feel like we're in control. But so it was a healthy experience. Yeah, I'm not Buddhist, but I agree with a lot of their. Their beliefs and teachings. But. Okay, so, yeah, so doing all that was fun and a great, safe experience. I never got out of control. I didn't become addicted to anything. I don't think I have much of an addictive personality, but yeah, it was. It was all in good fun.

John Dehlin [01:45:07] All right, so smooth sailing from there. Story over.

Chandler Roberson [01:45:10] Yep, that's it. It's a wrap. No, I. Yeah, and I'll. I, you know, still trying to decide how much of this next portion to. To get into. And I probably won't go too crazy, but. Yeah, I had met another guy and we. I was not believing at the time and I was under the impression that he really wasn't super active at the time either. And then we just started dating and I really liked him and really cared about him. And just somewhere along our relationship, he realized that, you know, he really still cared about his Mormon upbringing and that he wanted to continue to be LDS and, and to follow kind of all those guidelines and rules and get married in the temple and all of that. So I found myself at an interesting point because I finally was free of all these things, and I was feeling really good. And then I meet this person that I really love, and I think it's all good. And then all of a sudden it's like, here's that thing again. And I wanted to make it work because I cared about him. And I still had a soft spot for Mormonism because so many of my people were still in it. And I just thought, I can do this again. I can make it work for myself, because I'll just go and help all of the people that are struggling in the church because they need help too. And like, if I don't do it, who's going to do it? So I kind of hyped myself back into it. And it's something that I never would have guessed for myself, that I would have tried to get back into. I, I thought I was done, There was so much damage, but here I was because I met this person that I loved. I just thought, it can all, it can all be okay. I can make it work again. And that wasn't a new theme for me in my life of thinking, I can, I can make it right this time. I can be good enough this time to make it work. So there I was, trying to make it work, basically.

John Dehlin [01:47:09] So you entered into a second Mormon marriage? Sort of.

Chandler Roberson [01:47:14] Well, eventually, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:19] It, the pull is hard, the gravity is hard. It's like, like the moon revolving around the earth or the earth revolving around the sun. How do you get away?

Chandler Roberson [01:47:30] I know. It just felt like this thing kept finding me, Mormonism, and I just couldn't, like, stay away fully from it. So we, I had agreed that we could get married in the temple and all of that. And there's so much of a process that would go into that, and I felt very afraid about it, but I was ready to do it for this person.

John Dehlin [01:47:51] So were you framing that as just lying, or were you, or were you doing kind of what I ended up doing for a while, which is kind of like, well, what does it really mean to believe in God? And what is it? What is mean to believe in Jesus, really? Yeah, kind of nuancing the questions.

Chandler Roberson [01:48:07] Definitely. Yes, definitely. And I honestly had some really good conversations with some of the stake presidents and, and bishops that I had to meet with. I, I, I, it was weirdly enjoyable. Even though it was painful and I. I wouldn't do that again, obviously. But, yeah, I think I just convinced myself that I could make it work because when you love somebody, it can work.

John Dehlin [01:48:27] And let's face it, there's plenty of people that get married in Mormon temples that don't. Really.

Chandler Roberson [01:48:30] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:48:31] All of it.

Chandler Roberson [01:48:32] For sure. And so I just hyped myself up. I was like, I can do this. Well, then Covid happens, and him and I had been dating for a while, you know, just a couple of years, I think. But anyways, so covet happens and then all the temples closed down and so we couldn't get married in the temple. So we just had a regular Covid small wedding. We couldn't go on a honeymoon or anything like that. It was just very simple. And things were going pretty well. And surprise, surprise, all the things that haunted me came back about Mormonism, all my hard feelings and traumas and things that I didn't believe but tried to make work again, they just all came back. And I was kind of naive in thinking I could make it work. And I. I'm sure anybody listening is going to be like, you're so stupid. Like, how could you not have guessed this would be the outcome? But once again, that wasn't unfamiliar to me, thinking I'm the problem. I can just try again and make whatever it is work if I just try hard enough.

John Dehlin [01:49:37] So I'm wondering about at least three things based on what I've heard so far in terms of there's sort of what you're communicating with your spouse about, in terms of your disbelief, because if he is still partially believing or trying to make the church work, I can imagine you being open and honest about the things you struggle with at the church, being issue number one, potentially. Issue number two, potentially, is what you're vocal about or what you say publicly, you know, because that can always be a source of a contention if you're in kind of a mixed faith relationship.

Chandler Roberson [01:50:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:13] And then the third thing, which, again, I'm not prying, full informed consent, it's just the sexual stuff that may or may not get resolved in, in your situation. So anything you want to talk about any of that or not?

Chandler Roberson [01:50:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:27] Say pass.

Chandler Roberson [01:50:27] Definitely. I would say that as far as our conversations about belief and disbelief went, it was. And, and I don't say this to make him sound bad in any way. I mean, he was just doing what the church teaches you to do. It doesn't teach you how to process somebody having questions or doubts. But there Just wasn't room to really talk about doubts in our relationship. And it was hard because I kind of had to just put them aside like I used to, and I just had to push forward even with these painful feelings of doubt and questions. But I just. I just, like, wanted to make it work so bad. I wanted Mormonism to accept me. I wanted to have a space for people who don't believe or don't believe typically. So it was hard. But, yeah, so we didn't really talk a lot about the things that I disagreed with. We just kind of. Of didn't talk about it. We would talk about the, you know, the things that we liked or whatever, but not so much the. The bad stuff.

John Dehlin [01:51:23] And for those who don't get it, what's hard about just ignoring that or pretending like it doesn't exist or just packing it down?

Chandler Roberson [01:51:32] It's going to come up sometime. I mean, you could put it away, but it's not going to go away forever. You know, just like trauma just. It doesn't just disappear. It's. It's going to resurface at some point.

John Dehlin [01:51:43] So it's like zombies. You bury them and they.

Chandler Roberson [01:51:45] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:51:45] They crawl out of the. Crawl out of the grave.

Chandler Roberson [01:51:48] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:51:48] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [01:51:49] So, yeah, so for that, that was. That was tough. And I don't remember what your second.

John Dehlin [01:51:54] Were you wanting to be public about your questions and doubts? Was that an issue?

Chandler Roberson [01:51:58] It was kind of a weird place for me because I wanted him to see that I was really trying to make it work. And so I, like, publicly, even though it was, like, hard for me, wanted to be, like, showing the things I liked about the church so that he didn't think all I was doing was talking about the bad stuff about the church. Because I had a YouTube video. That was my experience leaving the church. So I would try to almost counterbalance the negative things I was public about with saying good things or posting quotes.

John Dehlin [01:52:25] So you had created a YouTube channel by this point?

Chandler Roberson [01:52:27] I had a YouTube channel and it just had one video, basically about my experience with Mormonism. But it had a lot of clues.

John Dehlin [01:52:34] Is that video still up or is it down?

Chandler Roberson [01:52:36] I think it might be down, but I will put. Put it back up.

John Dehlin [01:52:38] Okay. Okay.

Chandler Roberson [01:52:39] Yeah, but it would just be under

Samantha Shelley [01:52:40] the YouTube channel launching. When's the YouTube channel launching for real?

Chandler Roberson [01:52:44] I do need to do that. But. But yeah, so I do have a YouTube channel. I just haven't posted anything since that video.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:49] Yes, I have a random comment slash question you. I didn't realize you were planning on getting married. In the temple. But you're planning on getting married in the temple, but you didn't have, like a Mormon approved wedding dress, which, by the way, your wedding dress is gorgeous. The second. I mean, both your wedding dresses are gorgeous.

Chandler Roberson [01:53:08] The wedding dress situation was crazy because I fully anticipated it being made modest. The people where I bought it from, they told me that they were going. The designer was going to send me a bag of fabric that they could make sleeves from. And when I got the dress, the bag did. They didn't have. There was like two pieces of fabric. And I was like, what am I going to do? But it was at the same time I got the dress that the weddings or that the temples closed. So I was like, well, I'm just gonna make it how I want to make it. I'm gonna wear my dress, however I'm gonna wear it. And my at the time husband, he did not care about that. He was totally okay with me wearing the dress as it was.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:44] You look hot.

Chandler Roberson [01:53:45] Yeah. So I don't think he had too much trouble with that.

John Dehlin [01:53:48] So can we get. Can we include a photo of your wedding dress?

Samantha Shelley [01:53:51] Sure, yeah. Put it on the screen.

Chandler Roberson [01:53:53] I'll add you one. Yeah. It's a beautiful dress. Definitely the most beautiful dress I have ever worn or ever will wear.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:58] So rip.

Chandler Roberson [01:54:01] It's sad someone bought it, though. It's all good.

John Dehlin [01:54:04] So you were saying you were trying to publicly be positive about the church.

Chandler Roberson [01:54:08] Yeah, yeah, I was trying to be positive because I felt like I must have been being too negative and I didn't want to hurt this person. So. Yeah, so I was being somewhat public about things, but I can see now, looking back, kind of like my mission, the amount of anxiety that I was having about it, but I just didn't want to acknowledge was related to that thing. I just kind of felt like, oh, there's just a lot of life changes happening and I'm. I'm feeling anxiety, but. But looking back, I'm like, oh, yeah, it was because I was trying to make all these things work that couldn't have worked, basically. Yeah. And uniquely, him and I, we dated and we were able to have somewhat of a normal relationship before he decided to become active again. So we were able to figure a lot of those things out.

John Dehlin [01:54:57] Intimacy, sexual intimacy.

Chandler Roberson [01:54:59] Intimacy things. Yeah, we were able to, you know, do those things, which was great. But, you know, when you add the church back into the mix, it just kind of complicates things. So somewhere along the line, we kind of decided not to do that anymore. Yeah. So that's when marriage kind of comes in and it's like, well, now I got to get married so we can do all those things and whatnot.

John Dehlin [01:55:18] Yeah, okay.

Chandler Roberson [01:55:19] Yep.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:20] So you're already so attached and, like, in love with this person by the time the church becomes a thing again. That's gotta be so tough.

Chandler Roberson [01:55:27] And it felt. It felt so painful because looking back at my, you know, my boyfriend from high school that I loved, my senior year boyfriend, it felt like no matter what situation I was in, the church kept me from the person that I loved. When I was with him, it was that he wasn't Mormon, my first boyfriend, and that I had to leave to find someone who was. And then when I was with, you know, my last husband, it was that he wanted to be Mormon, and I couldn't be that type of a Mormon. I couldn't be enough of a Mormon. I couldn't believe or disbelieve it had. You know, it just felt like the church always comes back and prevents me from being with somebody that I love. So, yeah, that. That's. That's been extremely painful to process because it's just like a wave that keeps hitting you and you expect it to, like, stop at some point, and it just feels like it won't stop. So when I have a lot of frustration or anger towards the church, it just feels like it's, you know, people say, oh, why won't you leave it alone? Because it hasn't left me alone. It hasn't let me live my life or have authentic relationships. It's. It's barred me and taken a lot from me. So, yeah, it's hard to process all that. That loss.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:37] What was it that made you realize you couldn't make that second marriage work and you. You didn't want to keep presumably trying to be something you weren't?

Chandler Roberson [01:56:46] Yeah. So eventually in the marriage, I, you know, I brought it up to him that I just couldn't believe in those things, and that was obviously really hard. But we weren't quite done then. I think we still hoped we could make it work at some level. And I think there was just a lot of tension between the fact that he believed so much and that I didn't. And he felt, you know, hurt if I was saying something bad about the church, and I felt hurt if he was defending the church. Just kind of an ongoing situation. But I think what it really came down to was I just had realized at one point I've really never asked myself if I want kids. I've always said Do I want kids? And then there's already the answer built in that says yes, because that's default. And I would say in society, but especially in Mormonism, it's, you're a woman, you're going to have kids, that's the most important thing you're going to do. And so I had always convinced myself that I wanted to have kids. And my mom's so wonderful and she would always say, if you're gonna have kids. And I would say, no, mom, I'm gonna have kids. She'd say, okay, but if you're gonna have kids. And I would be like, stop saying that. But like, she's just the best. It's like that helped me so much because my mom always wanted to make sure that I knew that she was gonna love me either way. And I might as well mention my mom left the church in between those two marriages as well. And yeah, and I won't talk too much about other family members because I don't know what they want to be public. But my mom's out of the church now and so she's just, yeah, she's just such a wonderful person. So I never felt that pressure that like, I had to have kids from her. And I think that I'm sure a lot of people feel that pressure from their moms particularly. I felt it from my mother in law for sure. But I'm grateful that my mom didn't put that on me because I'm sure I would have felt like I have to do this if I'm going to be a good Mormon. So. Yeah, so I basically was like, just a weird realization. I don't know if I want kids. And that's a scary thought to have when you've told somebody that you, you want kids and you've talked about kids and now you feel like, oh my gosh, they're gonna really feel like I've just deceived them twice, you know, over this thing. But to be fair, I never really got to ask myself that question. So that was the main thing for us was just like, yeah, who, if we, even if we make all the other stuff work, I can't promise you that I want kids. And that's hard because, I mean, yeah, I mean, if I was, if I was a man, I'd probably want kids more too, because you don't have to do a lot of the, you know, labor and all that. But. And I can't blame him too. I mean, he wants kids and that's fair. But yeah, I think that in A lot of ways. It just. Mormonism sets you up. It stacks the cards against you in marriages to fail. Because if it doesn't go exactly as it's supposed to, there's really no going outside the box. It's. It's tough.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:28] And as you're highlighting, there's so many questions you don't even think to ask yourself. So who can blame you for, like, agreeing to certain things when you didn't even know there was really another option or it wasn't. I love what you said about your mum and how she talked about kids, though, because I think even those small language shifts can be really huge.

Chandler Roberson [01:59:46] Definitely.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:46] I wonder if that, like, enabled you to realize maybe I don't want kids sooner than they might have.

Chandler Roberson [01:59:51] I think it did.

John Dehlin [01:59:53] Yeah. And I'll just. I want to reinforce a point we've made before you grow up in Mormonism with that song. The wise man built his house upon the rock and you're taught that the rock is the gospel or the church. And Something I realized five or 10 years ago is the Mormon Church is not a solid rock to build a marriage or a relationship or a life on. Not because there aren't good things about it. I do believe there are good things about Mormonism. But if you are to think that you're going to have kids and that your kids are going to stay in the church, or you're going to get married and that your spouse is going to stay in the church, or you're going to get a job where your clients are, you know, always going to be okay with whatever religious choices you make. There are so many ways where betting your life on your or other people's Mormon church activity is a really bad bet.

Chandler Roberson [02:00:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:00:50] Like any, any parent right now raising their kids Mormon guaranteed, on average, over 50% of your kids will not be Mormon by the time they're 30. And so you're setting yourself up for sad heaven where you think you're building an eternal family, but there's a really good chance your spouse and. Or the majority of your kids are going to leave the church if you don't.

Chandler Roberson [02:01:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:15] And so that's why this is so serious. Because your education, or lack thereof, was tied to what the church influenced and taught you to follow or not value your marriage, your two marriages, whether or not you. What if you had. Had rushed and had two or three or four kids and then all this happened and then it's not just you, it's not just your spouse or your spouses, it's not just the disappointment of all your friends and family, but then it's also the kids being involved. And that's, that's why this question of informed consent is so essential and why the church is so derelict and irresponsible in 2021 to not make sure that every single Mormon or Mormon investigator fully understands what they're getting into. Right before they sign up for a lifetime commitment to your mission service and eternal marriage and the kids and 10% of their income for life.

Chandler Roberson [02:02:12] Yep.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:12] And that's when he's going to sign up. Well, it, I, I would argue that it depends on them.

John Dehlin [02:02:18] Not some will.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:19] Informed consent. But why? Who? I mean, community is a, is a big pool. But why would anyone be drawn to an LDS community if there was genuine informed consent where they're like, hey, this is the history of our church. This is like what we're built on and this is the truth. This is what we actually know about those things.

John Dehlin [02:02:38] I mean, that's the rub, because a lot less people are probably going to join. But, you know, but, you know, I'll say two things. One, John Hamer joined Community of Christ knowing all the problems with Community of Christ. I mean, it, it happens. And all sorts of people believe all sorts of weird things we realize in 2021. And I don't mean to be offensive to Mormons, odd things, difficult things, conspiratorial things, magical thinking things. I mean, people believe all sorts of weird things. But I, I think obviously the point I'm trying to make is how deeply unethical it is for the church to allow any Mormon to go one more minute without knowing everything relevant about the church's history and the way it harms people. And it's deeply unethical for any, for the Mormon Church to baptize one more person without them fully understanding, you know, they're African Americans or Africans converting to the church, never even knowing that the church banned people of color for 150 years. Like, deeply, deeply unethical.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:44] I think, I think.

John Dehlin [02:03:45] Am I still boxing, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [02:03:47] No, you're right, you're right. I think they're really going to go for that suggestion. I think that would.

John Dehlin [02:03:52] Yeah, Sarcasm alert.

Chandler Roberson [02:03:53] Put it in the suggestion. Yeah, yeah, I, I completely agree. It just feels like you make a lot of choices under false pretenses and then you're like, wait, I wish I could have made different choices, but it's too late. And I feel lucky that I'm, you know, 28 and I realize these things. I'm not in my 50s, 60s, and not to Say that that's bad, but just. There's just so much more life taken from you when you realize it later. So I feel really fortunate. But you still can't get back anything you lost, so it's hard to come to terms with.

Reflections, Resilience, and Life Beyond Mormonism

Samantha Shelley [02:04:26] Do you think about how the experience of like buying fully into this worldview and then having it completely destroyed benefits you moving forward in your life?

John Dehlin [02:04:38] Well, we're going, we're going to her future. Are you saying going forward? I mean, are you asking if she's gonna, if she's gonna consider staying?

Samantha Shelley [02:04:48] No, no, no. I'm just, I'm just. You're talking about the time that you obviously feel like you lose to Mormonism, but do you ever think, do you have. I guess what I'm trying to say is I often feel like the experience of having this worldview that you buy into so completely and then having it all crash down around you is kind of a beneficial experience that like, not everyone in the world gets to have in turn. And you seem like you've always been so good at being open minded, even despite being in a high demand religion. But.

Chandler Roberson [02:05:15] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:15] Do you feel like benefits there?

Chandler Roberson [02:05:17] No, I do.

John Dehlin [02:05:18] And I think having been through it all.

Chandler Roberson [02:05:20] Yeah, Yeah, I completely feel that way. It's, it's. It's kind of like when you go through a hard thing and you wish it didn't happen, but it did. So all you can do is move forward. And obviously there's still a lot of healing that has to happen. Emotions that I wasn't able to process that have to happen. But I do feel like it sets me up for success for the rest of my life. Not to say I won't have things that I fail on and whatever, but I also won't feel guilt for failing. And I'll feel more open to trying and thinking more and asking more questions. Just an overall level of happiness that it's real. Like everything's at least real. So, yeah, I do feel like it. I do walk away with some benefits. Just. Just. Yeah, I think some people, because they don't have that experience, you kind of just do fall through life and then it's over and you're like, oh, what did I do? And I don't feel like I have to do that because I already know what it's like to feel like a zombie for a certain period of time and then get to break free of that. So, yeah, it's almost like a reverse.

Samantha Shelley [02:06:21] And I feel like so many people betray themselves throughout their lives, like inside or outside of religion and you've had such an extreme, like 20 something year boot camp of self betrayal that hopefully that means that now moving forward you can. Sorry, I'm like getting on my life coach.

Chandler Roberson [02:06:40] So I like it and I like it. And I think. I mean, it's not really backtracking, but, you know, starting my Tick tock while I was in that second marriage that as an outlet for me has been. And it sounds so, like, silly. It's Tick Tock. It's like a children's app. But it's been so wonderful for me just to be, I guess, what I wished I would have had when I was going through it. Just being an example. Not example, I guess, but just being just. Even if it's just like a silly TikTok that somebody can laugh at and then the powers, it feels like it has less power over them, that Mormon belief or that whatever it was that they struggled with. And I feel great about that. And I feel like going, I don't know, moving forward and having Tick tock, it just feels like I can be more authentic to myself finally. I can express feelings or thoughts that I was never able to previously in my life. And. And I mentioned this a little bit, but I'm. Sometimes on TikTok, people say, oh, ex Mormons, you know, you just want people to follow you. And how are you any different than, you know, the guy you hate, Joseph Smith? And obviously people can follow me on TikTok, but I don't want to be like a leader. I don't want to be. I don't want to be that voice for anybody. I want to encourage people to have their own voices. I want people to follow themselves and to ask themselves what they need in their lives. Because I'm happy being a friend and a listening ear. But, you know, everyone out there, they're wonderful people and they should trust themselves. So that's my goal, is helping people feel less alone. Because once again, the church does not provide any of those types of resources. And in most cases, you're penalized if you try to. So, yeah. Yeah, there I am.

John Dehlin [02:08:19] Yeah. So you ended that second marriage. How long. How long ago?

Chandler Roberson [02:08:25] Pretty recently. It's only been a few months. Wow. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:30] And how are you? How are you feeling now?

Chandler Roberson [02:08:32] You know, it's still hard, it's still difficult. But you.

John Dehlin [02:08:38] You loved him, right?

Chandler Roberson [02:08:40] Yeah, definitely. He's. Yeah, he's a huge part of my life.

John Dehlin [02:08:44] If he had just said, I'm done with the church, I'm out. And if you. I love you. Whether or not you want to have kids. If he had said that, I think

Chandler Roberson [02:08:53] there would have been, obviously, like any marriage, you have stuff that you still need to work on, but it's hard to even, I guess, comprehend what that would have looked like, because that never seemed like a possibility. Okay. But. But yeah, it was. It was mutual in the sense that we both agreed. Yeah. If. If I don't want kids or if I don't know I want kids and you do, then you deserve to be able to find somebody who does. So we. We parted mutually on those terms. But, yeah, it still feels like the church obviously plays a pretty big role in how we feel.

John Dehlin [02:09:24] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [02:09:24] So. But yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:26] So you're gonna say how you're feeling now.

Chandler Roberson [02:09:29] Now, you know, every day is a little bit different, but overall, I'm just feeling, I guess, proud of myself to do hard things, which sounds silly, but it's hard to look at your second marriage with a person that you love and realize it's not going to work out. That's super hard. So, I mean, for a while, I was thinking, you know, you don't want to leave the second marriage because you're worried of what everyone's going to say. You know, a second marriage by 28, that's pretty dramatic. And if I was anybody else, I would think it was pretty insane that. That someone had gone through this.

John Dehlin [02:10:09] There's kind of a scarlet letter. It's like, whoa, not only did one marriage fail to do. Yeah, there's. I don't believe this at all, by the way.

Chandler Roberson [02:10:16] Oh, don't.

John Dehlin [02:10:17] Second marriages. Second marriages on a rebound that. That fail pretty quickly. Super normal. Both my parents got married, second marriages, and those ended within two years. You know, that's. That's just. I think that's kind of quite normal because marriage is hard, and second marriages are actually harder. Yes, but there's. But there's that. There's that stigma of, like, oh, you couldn't make it once, now you could make it work twice.

Chandler Roberson [02:10:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:41] There must be something wrong with you.

Chandler Roberson [02:10:42] Exactly. So you're just. You're just knowing that you're going to have to embrace all the judgment that people are going to have for what you've done and thinking you're stupid. But I think if anything from this, like, Mormon journey that I've gained is I don't really care what anybody thinks. I don't care if anybody thinks I'm stupid or naive or whatever. Like, I've probably been all those things at different points in my life, and that's okay. I'm just a human person trying to figure it out just like they are. So, yeah, I just. I just don't really care what anybody thinks. And it feels freeing for the first time in my life to not care. Like, in an empathetic, caring way. I care if people are okay and things like that, but I just don't care if people disagree with the way I do things or how I see things. I just. It doesn't bother me. It doesn't keep me up like it used to.

Samantha Shelley [02:11:28] So what would you say to someone? Because I imagine this would be a big thing, so. Stigma around divorce. But there's. There's arguably more stigma around multiple divorces because, you know, people, like, characterize you by it. But what would you say to someone who's in, like, a second or third or fourth marriage and is, like, feeling like it's not aligned with what they truly want, but is. But is feeling the pressure of that stigma?

Chandler Roberson [02:11:52] That's a good question, because a lot of it can depend on what the marriage looks like. I mean, obviously, there's things that you can do to probably save a marriage in some cases, and then there's some that are. It's just beyond you, or it might not be what you wanted and you're a different person. But I would just, once again, ask yourself, what do I really want? Am I happy? What's going to be the best thing for me? And even if that thing is going to be really hard, do it. I mean, it's. It's going to suck the entire time, but eventually you'll look back and be like, what if I hadn't done this? Like, I needed to do this. So just. I always have to remind myself, this isn't forever, this feeling isn't forever, and I'm going to be okay. That's got me through a lot of tough times, so if that's anybody out there, I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [02:12:41] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [02:12:41] Yeah. It's a tough thing, so.

John Dehlin [02:12:44] Well, you seem really resilient, and I'm really impressed that you're, like. You're kind of. It's like a third chapter.

Chandler Roberson [02:12:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:53] You know, or fourth or whatever. You're just kind of like, okay, what's next? Life.

Chandler Roberson [02:12:58] Yep. You just learn to roll with it. Even if it's painful. You're just kind of like, all right, bring it. Yeah, I've gotten this far, so.

John Dehlin [02:13:05] And by the way, marriage can be amazing, but marriage is super hard, and it's super duper hard when you're not really loving and sharing values with who you're married to. So as hard as marriage is, even if you love being married in the wrong situation.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:24] Not healthy.

Chandler Roberson [02:13:25] Nope. So you got to do what's best for both people. Sometimes that's really tough, but. But yeah. And so now I don't want to use the word free because I don't want it to seem like I'm free of him or anything. It's not like that. But I finally just feel like I'm free to be myself and kind of like that period of time I had before when I was in between the two marriages to kind of figure myself out and take the time and become my own person and just do a lot of the healing that I couldn't do when I was in my marriages. So it's like time to be good. Selfish. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:01] Self centered in a good way.

Chandler Roberson [02:14:02] Yep. Yep. Get rid of that codependency.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:06] Imagine.

Chandler Roberson [02:14:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:14:08] What are the chances you will marry another believing Mormon man?

Chandler Roberson [02:14:12] Zero. Zero.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:13] Plot twist.

Chandler Roberson [02:14:14] Zero.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:16] Never say never.

John Dehlin [02:14:17] Love could be powerful.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:18] Love is a drug.

Chandler Roberson [02:14:19] I thought that the first or the

Samantha Shelley [02:14:21] second time you have a period of sobriety from a drug and then you're like, I'm good, I can have a little bit again. Boom, you're married again.

Chandler Roberson [02:14:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:27] Well, Sam, we got her on record, so.

Chandler Roberson [02:14:29] Yeah, play that for me again if you ever find out.

John Dehlin [02:14:32] Otherwise we'll make a TikTok out of that one.

Chandler Roberson [02:14:34] Please do immediately. But yeah, I, I would definitely say never again. And not just because it can't be a good person, but there's just so much more than like we're saying, if you, even if you love someone so much, those beliefs are bigger than any marriage, unfortunately. Like, so it's, it's, you know, I, I just would never put myself through that again because it's, it's very painful to feel chosen over religion or chosen after religion. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:15:05] Okay, so I have to ask you a question. I'm asking a lot of people lately I have a certain set of listeners. There's a group that are like evangelical Christian and they always write, either commenting on YouTube or they write to me. It's just so. John, I love your podcast, but it's just so terrible that Mormonism ruins people for God or they ruin people for Christianity and they're really sad when post Mormons don't continue being Christians.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:35] So.

John Dehlin [02:15:36] And then I've got another set of friends that are like, hey, organized religion. Even if it's not true per se, it's still good. And so the myth is good and the community is good and the values are good. And so it's a, It's a shame that Mormonism ruins people for, like, progressive religion, even if it's Buddhism or, you know, Judaism or whatever.

Chandler Roberson [02:16:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:02] Because they're like, that's still good. And having neither of those is like, is like sad. And so what would you say to kind of both of those concerns? Well, I mean, where do you want to talk about where you stand with God and Jesus right now?

Chandler Roberson [02:16:20] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:16:21] And respond to those who might be concerned regarding your state with Jesus? Basically.

Chandler Roberson [02:16:27] Yeah. So, and I. And going off those points first, I mean, I remember when I first left and it was somewhat public. Those people flooded my, my dms for sure. Like, oh, I'm sorry that God was ruined for you. I promise it's. It's all good. And I respect that they feel that way. But at least being someone who went through Mormonism, if Mormonism wasn't it, I just don't like it was so. It was so high stakes. There were so many wonderful things promised to me and I just, if that wasn't it, it just. Everything's kind of the same to me. And I know that's like a broad stroke, but to me it's just. They all look the same. And I, I don't mean to be offensive by saying that.

John Dehlin [02:17:03] So Mormonism did ruin you for Christianity?

Chandler Roberson [02:17:06] Oh, for sure, for sure. All religion, it's.

John Dehlin [02:17:09] Oh, religion, yeah.

Chandler Roberson [02:17:10] God too, though.

John Dehlin [02:17:11] God too, yes. So the Mormon Church ruined God for you?

Chandler Roberson [02:17:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:17:15] Well, I mean, I guess you lived 25 years with God kind of abandoning you silent.

Chandler Roberson [02:17:21] And where was Heavenly Mother? Like, that was to me, so bothered. Like, I always just wanted to know where I could see myself in the church. And obviously there's not a lot of women figures. But I hated the Heavenly Mother was just shielded. It was like, oh, she's not. People would attack her. So we can't make her public and she's being defended. But I thought if Heavenly Mother would be able to defend herself, surely. So I just like, yeah, Mormonism definitely deleted God for me.

John Dehlin [02:17:47] Okay. I'm just gonna push back a tiny bit. Please do so. Why not give God a second chance? Figure out how other people experience God and try that.

Chandler Roberson [02:17:57] So luckily, growing up where I grew up in Vancouver, Washington, there were. I had so many friends that were not lds. I would say the majority of my friends were not lds. And although I always felt like I had the right church, I went to churches a lot with my other friends so that they would come to mine. And I honestly Was never not open to it. Like I wanted to confirm to myself probably that, oh, I was right. But I would go into it hoping I could feel something there too. And I just never did. But I don't really care what God it is. Whether it's Christian God or Mormon God or whatever. Whatever God it was left me alone time and time again. So whoever it is, I just, that's wrong. I just can't imagine believing in that type of God.

John Dehlin [02:18:40] So non Mormon God could have answered those prayers.

Chandler Roberson [02:18:43] Whatever God. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:44] That God didn't either.

Chandler Roberson [02:18:45] Yep. There was just. No.

John Dehlin [02:18:46] You were still holding God accountable.

Chandler Roberson [02:18:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:18:48] Okay.

Chandler Roberson [02:18:48] Yeah. I, I, and it's the same thing with, you know, people tell you, oh, they see my tick tocks and say, oh, you're going to hell, or I can't wait to see you go to hell. And I go to the celestial kingdom and tell, say I told you so. Weird comment, but I get those things.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:00] That sounds like a celestial kingdom mindset.

Chandler Roberson [02:19:02] It's fine. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's not where they're going. But yeah, so I get those comments and it's like, why would I want to believe in a God? That to me, the idea of God is monstrous. I mean, a God that makes hell and then makes people who don't do perfectly in life go to hell. Non believers or sinners or whatever. I just, the idea of God is just crazy to me now. I just, it just doesn't work for me. And so, yeah, I guess that's where I am with my belief is I don't believe in a God, I don't believe in Jesus. I'm, I'm not, I don't know if I would say I'm atheist because I'm kind of just open to whatever there is in life. But weirdly enough, have you watched that documentary? It's called Hail Satan.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:43] No, not yet.

John Dehlin [02:19:43] Yeah. Yep. It's about, it's about the church of Satan.

Chandler Roberson [02:19:46] Yes. You would.

John Dehlin [02:19:47] Not about worshiping Satan.

Chandler Roberson [02:19:48] No. It's very different than people think.

John Dehlin [02:19:49] It's about a secular way of life.

Chandler Roberson [02:19:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:53] That is basically shining a spotlight on the abuses of religion. Is that right?

Chandler Roberson [02:19:59] They kind of serve. They're more almost of a political movement too, but they kind of try to balance out that Christianity seems to be the default in America. And if you haven't seen it, I would highly recommend watching the documentary. It's it to me. Not that I would say I'm, I would be part of that church because I don't think I'll ever be a part of any church. But since leaving, watching that documentary, I would associate myself more with the things that they believe than I ever believed in Mormon Christianity. Basically, they're just, they're, they're simple and wonderful people. And it was pointed out to me, or I guess in the documentary a couple of times, that there's so many times that, you know, this idea of Satan where he's told that Satan's the bad guy actually was kind of the good guy. I mean, if you look like Adam and Eve, you know, the temptation for Eve to eat the fruit, it was, it was, it was Satan. And he was the one that encouraged her to do that, and she had to do that. So Satan was there in the same time as when Christ is fasting, you know, for, you know, 30 days. And then Satan tempts him. Technically, it's like him saying, you don't have to do this. And when I had my patriarchal blessing mentioned Satan originally, like I said, I was kind of offended by it. And then I started to really think about it a lot as I got older and as I left Mormonism. And Satan was always agency. And, you know, they teach you that, you know, you sit in a chair and they say, this was Satan's plan. And then they say, and here was God's plan. It was to come here and make your own choices. But it feels backwards that that feels like the opposite of what it actually is because Satan was the one that always wanted agency. And not that I believe in Satan, but I guess symbolically. So I think that I finally came to peace just knowing, even if none of it's true, that Satan figure wasn't a bad thing in my life. It was actually the voice of reason and that having a conscious is a conscience is a good thing. So I don't want to say I, like, I believe in Satan, but, yeah, I don't really believe in anything.

Samantha Shelley [02:22:00] Hail Satan.

Chandler Roberson [02:22:01] But Hail Satan.

Samantha Shelley [02:22:01] Yeah, sorry, John.

Chandler Roberson [02:22:02] No, I don't really. Yeah, I don't associate with anything. I'm just, the more I know, the less I know, basically.

John Dehlin [02:22:08] So, yeah, yeah, the, yeah, the Church of Satan is basically secular humanism manufacturing a belief in a magical, mystical, supernatural being so that they can minimize the civic influence of Christianity and religious institutions.

Chandler Roberson [02:22:29] Yep, exactly. Yeah, that's exactly it.

John Dehlin [02:22:31] It's brilliant.

Chandler Roberson [02:22:32] I, I interesting.

John Dehlin [02:22:33] And it has nothing to do with killing and eating babies.

Chandler Roberson [02:22:36] Not even. And they get into that in the documentary. They're just not who people think they are. But they're kind of trolls, you know, they kind of like to troll people and I think it's funny, but I just, I just like what they stand for and I just, yeah, I, I don't believe in much, in anything and just doing the best that I can with the life I know I have. So it's kind of simple, but works for me.

John Dehlin [02:22:55] Love it. Okay, so I'm still going to ask this follow up question. What about like, I've got a friend who's Jewish. I hope he hears this. He, he barely believes in God. Like he's like 51% there's a God. 49, there's not. He probably doesn't go to synagogue at all, but he bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah to his children and he associates with Judaism as a, a tribe and as a culture and he thinks it's a great way to raise your kids and just a good way of life. And, and scriptures are nothing more than metaphor and myth. And yeah, there's a little bit of potential historical credibility to the Bible or the Torah or the Talmud, but really it's just myth. But he feels very strongly that that's possibly the most, the ideal way of living. He would hate me saying that, but I'm gonna, I, I really do get the sense that he, he looks, he thinks of like people not being religious. Like he would look at a puppy, you know, just kind of like, oh, so sorry for you.

Chandler Roberson [02:24:02] So empty.

John Dehlin [02:24:02] Yeah. So why not just be a really non literal, progressive religious person, have your cake and eat it too. Where you're like, yeah, finds, Find a guy or whatever, woman, whatever to partner up with who is just Mormon socially and says all the right things. But you both wink at each other and know that you don't believe any of it. But you can have your cake and eat it too. You can totally get all the social benefits of participation, of tribal stuff, of not turning anyone off, and you can believe what they can do. Whatever you want. Buffet. Buffet. Mormons, basically.

Chandler Roberson [02:24:43] Yeah, it's a good question. Honestly, just for me personally, it doesn't work because I think this is a Bernie Brown thing. But there's a difference between fitting in and belonging. And I did a really good job at fitting in for a really long time and it worked. And I was happy on a surface level, but I didn't feel like I belonged. I couldn't go in there and say, hey, I'm having this really, really serious issue if it was something contrary to what those people believed. So did those people really love me or did they just like that? I re. Reaffirmed what they already believe and made them feel more comfortable. So at least for me, I don't want to have to pretend to be anything I'm not. I spent a long time doing that, and I want to be exactly who I am, and I want to be comfortable with people not liking it. And if people will be offended if I think differently, that's okay. They have every right to. But being authentic to myself means making choices for myself. And I just don't think, even on a surface level, that religions give you that option. I think that most religions don't give you that option.

John Dehlin [02:25:47] So in my conversation with my friend, I'm like, do you tell me what to tell ex Mormons? Because, like, they're not going to become Catholics.

Chandler Roberson [02:25:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:54] They're not going to join Judaism. You know, the Old Testament can be as problematic as or more than the New Testament. They're not going to join Lutheranism. Like, what? You know, I become Baptist. And he's like, well, Unitarian Universalist. You know, that's a church. And you don't have to believe anything or community of Christ because they don't care what you believe.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:16] Why does it need to be a church at all? Why can't you just find community outside of religion?

John Dehlin [02:26:20] Well, that's just. That's his point. And I'm just, basically just speaking to my friend Ken. I'm like, come on, bro, I'm doing my best here, but I'm just trying to voice his argument that he. He believes that having a morality, like he would say, for example, premarital sex is bad. He would say that, you know, drug and alcohol culture is bad, that party, you know, frat and sorority culture is bad, and that traditional families are good. And he would say that some sort of esoteric, non literal belief in a higher power is good and that having a framework or a structure to kind of order your life and to potentially order your family and to have the tribal and the ritualistic benefits of a religious tradition are all good. And by the way, he's not alone. There are a lot of Mormons today, Dan Witherspoon, maybe even Patrick Mason or others, Terrell, Fiona Givens, that are. Seem to be advocating this sort of approach.

Chandler Roberson [02:27:21] Yeah. And I.

John Dehlin [02:27:22] So that's. Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:23] That's why I have no issue with that. I mean, I do think we. We kind of deconstruct our reality by degrees. Not, not to say that everyone needs to arrive at some specific point that I believe in, but the thing you just said, like, there is still a massive array of Beliefs involved in what you just said. Like, you know, you can, if, if you just are talking about community, you don't need religion. If you're just talking about a sense of shared values and ethics, you don't need religion.

John Dehlin [02:27:54] Spirituality.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:55] Yeah, you don't need religion for spirituality. We've done a whole panel on it. Like, you love Eckhart Tolle. Eckhart Tolle talks highly of Jesus and the Buddha. And you know, a lot of the original spiritual leaders of these groups, like, weren't, weren't necessarily gunning for what the religion turned into.

John Dehlin [02:28:18] What about sexual debauchery and drug addiction and alcohol addiction?

Samantha Shelley [02:28:22] Well, sorry, I don't want to make this family. But like, the root of addiction is, is like, lack of connection and often unhealed pain. And, you know, you can absolutely have a glass of wine and not become addicted to alcohol. So it's like, if you personally feel like you have a predisposition to get, you know, you don't trust yourself, then you don't trust yourself. Don't do it. You don't have to do anything. But I think we should be very careful of the ways that we are prescriptive and that we put what we think is right onto others. It's like, maybe for you, like a heteronormative family structure, you believe that's great. Maybe for you, you believe that it's not important to figure out sexual compatibility before marriage. But like, though you have to. I think getting on my soapbox. But I think, like, for me personally, the wisest form of spirituality has been being able to create separation between my beliefs and reality and recognizing that, like, those things are beliefs. Like, you know, and you can't. And trying to prescribe your beliefs to others. I mean, it, you know, you're free to talk about what you think is good and what's benefited you. But, you know, why do you feel like nobody should have sex before marriage? Like, is there some lingering conditioning there around religion? Because, you know, you, you still can't get away from the fact that like, you were, you did have that belief instilled in you from like X to X. And like, there are plenty of people who didn't who have like, very healthy relationships with sexuality. And, you know, there's not necessarily a soup. Well, I would argue that open mindedness is generally. I don't know. I don't want to cut me off.

Chandler Roberson [02:30:00] All right, good.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:00] Delete all that.

John Dehlin [02:30:02] What would you add Chandler to?

Chandler Roberson [02:30:04] I. I think. Think, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:05] Or disagree. You can disagree.

Chandler Roberson [02:30:06] I mean, I have friends I have people that, you know, go on to join other churches and other belief systems and things like that. And that's totally fine because everyone's so different and that's what everyone should get to do. And when they know all the conditions, being able to make a decision, what's going to make their life the best, then that's great. But I also think there's, there has to be some type of correlation with how much people have lost while part of a high demand religion and their interest in still going to another religion. Because I think when you get burned so badly, it just kind of reminds me of an abusive relationship where like, why would you, why would you go back just to get burned again? And some people who maybe had more of. Not like a lukewarm in a bad way, but like a lukewarm experience with a religion, they might feel more comfortable staying in that thing because it always served them. So at least for me, the hurt that it caused me throughout my life, I just would never entertain that idea again. But if somebody likes that way of living, then they have every right to do that thing. I think it's just kind of like you were saying, it's just people need to be willing to not project what they think is the right thing and moral onto other people and accept that everyone has the right to make choices for themselves. And just because you believe it doesn't mean it is right for everybody.

John Dehlin [02:31:23] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:31:23] And that's why Buddhism is the truest religion.

Chandler Roberson [02:31:28] Yeah, so.

John Dehlin [02:31:29] Well, that's. Yeah, yeah. Well, cool. Well, well said. Very powerful.

Chandler Roberson [02:31:37] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:31:38] And I look forward to hearing from my friends. Doing my best to advocate for. Yeah, yeah.

Chandler Roberson [02:31:46] So.

John Dehlin [02:31:46] Well, that's beautiful and powerful and what a beautiful way to kind of start to close up. So any other things we. About your story or any other final lessons or things you want to share, I mean, you could argue that same logic about you never wanting to join a religion again. You could say maybe you never want to ever get married again or never want to even be in love again or have a significant partner again, Never love again. That logic, I mean, that logic could, could apply.

Chandler Roberson [02:32:17] Yeah, it totally could apply. I think in most things in life I'm still open to kind of whatever, but religion feels like my own clinical trial where time and time again it was proven not to work. And so it would be silly of me when there's more evidence against it than for it. But yeah, I just think that I'm open to other things. But religion just didn't work.

John Dehlin [02:32:42] No, but, but I mean, Would you. Will you ever love again?

Chandler Roberson [02:32:45] Oh, yeah, definitely.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:46] Will you ever love again?

John Dehlin [02:32:47] No. But after two divorces, someone might say, you know, why try? It could just. It could be a third divorce.

Chandler Roberson [02:32:56] Oh, totally. And that's terrifying for me. I mean, I know that if I ever get into another relationship, I'd want to be dating that person for quite a long period of time before the conversation of marriage would ever come up, if it comes up. But, yeah, I'll definitely love again. I think that maybe that is one of the things that I've gained a strength from Mormonism is even though I've got knocked down a million times, I feel like, all right, you just get back up again and you keep trying. And I feel like love is one of the greatest things there is, and it's one of the greatest things I've been able to experience. So I'll fight for that forever. I mean, that's. That's the best thing there is.

John Dehlin [02:33:34] That's kind of beautiful.

Chandler Roberson [02:33:36] Thank you. But yeah. So I will love again.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:40] Well, my mom's been divorced twice and now she has a very nice boyfriend and she's in her 60s.

Chandler Roberson [02:33:45] See, it's possible.

John Dehlin [02:33:48] My mom got married three times and she heard the love of her life died at age 93. And I don't think she'll get married again. But they were married for, I don't know, 27, 30, 33 years, something like that.

Chandler Roberson [02:34:00] That's wonderful.

John Dehlin [02:34:00] My dad is married to his fifth spouse, but he loves his current spouse dearly, and they're by all appearances and accounts, super happy together. And there were just a couple rebound things that happened, but other than that, my dad had three really important relationships. What's wrong with that? Yeah, he doesn't like me saying that, though.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:24] I like, he sounds like a cool guy.

Chandler Roberson [02:34:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:26] I say my dad is a super. Hey, dad. Probably not listening, but, Dad, I love you. You're good.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:31] Also, I think just a note about the divorce thing. I think it's. It's. Yeah, maybe this is obvious, but it's wrong to see divorce as a failure. Like, we none of us know nearly as much about relationships and making marriages or long term committed relationships work as kind of like cultural expectations would have us believe. And I think you can't choose the timeline on which you learn lessons. And we have to play out whatever things we have to play out until our psyches realize this doesn't work for us anymore. And if that means, means 12 marriages, like, that's okay. Like, life isn't about, like, finding this One. I mean maybe for some people it is, but in my mind it's not about finding this one person and just sticking it out to the end. Like life is everything you live in your life. And yeah, I think viewing relationships and staying together through the lens of success failure is really problematic. And really what we need to be putting the focus on more and more is, is making sure we're not like self betraying and that we're not. Yeah, betraying ourselves to, to fit ourselves into these roles that our relationship structures demand that we fit into. Otherwise they fall apart. Because that is a sandy foundation to me. And you can have an unmarried couple that is like, has a much stronger foundation. As we all know, like, being married doesn't inherently mean anything about the strength of a relationship.

Chandler Roberson [02:35:57] Yep. I think it's just pulling away from that idea being in a high demand religion. Also, it's just the emphasis on marriage being everything and the fix all and that's where everything goes right. It's just realizing that it's, it's not everything. It can be wonderful, but it's not all you are. And it doesn't mean you're a failure if you couldn't do it right. Because plenty of people can't do it right. And it doesn't mean they're bad. Just means people are people.

Samantha Shelley [02:36:20] And even outside of Mormonism, like our society in general encourages codependent relationships. The metaphor you gave me when I got divorced is like if you're both leaning on each other and then one of you falls down, you both fall down. I say to everyone, but if you can have two whole people showing up and that's so much better. And if you, if you like Tana, he just had a breakup and the person he broke up with, like they're on amazing terms and they just realized like we had this beautiful year together and now he won't mind me saying this and now it's time to move on. And I think that's lovely. And it's such a like evolved way of looking at relationships that's such a conscious way of looking at relationships as, you know, enjoy your time together and it's, it doesn't need to last forever to be just as meaningful and valuable.

John Dehlin [02:37:06] Beautiful.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:07] Sorry I said so much.

Chandler Roberson [02:37:08] I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [02:37:09] It's why you're here.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:11] I just love divorce.

John Dehlin [02:37:14] Well, Chandler, this has been amazing.

Chandler Roberson [02:37:19] More.

John Dehlin [02:37:19] This has exceeded my already super high expectations. Is there any final thing about your story you want to share or. I mean, what's your tick tock chant handle? So that People can follow you on Tick Tock.

Chandler Roberson [02:37:32] It's just Chan Roberson. So just Chan and then my last name.

John Dehlin [02:37:36] No hyphen or just.

Chandler Roberson [02:37:38] And that's it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:39] At Chan Robinson Roberson. Okay.

Chandler Roberson [02:37:42] Yep. It's.

John Dehlin [02:37:43] Any other. Any. Any other things you want to share about your story or just final thoughts

Chandler Roberson [02:37:49] or feelings, I guess? Final thoughts. I mean, at least for me. Listening to your podcasts and Mormon stories a lot, I would always hear people's, you know, extraordinary, amazing, crazy stories, and I would compare it, I guess, to my story a little bit and just think, oh, those stories are so amazing and interesting, and my story is just so average. And I think that a lot of people probably feel that way about their experience through Mormonism, that, you know, who are they? Who. What is their experience? But I hope everybody would know that their experience is amazing and beautiful and tragic and wonderful. And just because you didn't meet general authorities or you don't have some super influential story that's going to change the world, it still mattered, and your experience was still valid, and your story is still very important. So.

John Dehlin [02:38:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautiful. That's powerful.

Chandler Roberson [02:38:43] So that's about all I would say.

John Dehlin [02:38:44] Okay. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much.

Chandler Roberson [02:38:48] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:38:49] Yeah. Samantha, any final. I want to give you a chance to plug your coaching practice. Also, Zelf, any final thoughts you want to share? It's been so lovely to have you today, and thanks for bringing Chandler on the podcast.

Samantha Shelley [02:39:04] Yeah, I swear you messaged me about bringing Chandler on the podcast. But anyway, no, I don't really have any final thoughts. I feel okay. It's been a really beautiful episode. Yeah. Like, I liked what you said at the end. Yours is a sort of typical Mormon story. And every typical Mormon story is, like, beautiful and tragic and. Yeah, just kind of contains all of it.

Chandler Roberson [02:39:26] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:39:27] Unexpected hero of the episode. Chandler's Christian high school boyfriend. Big fan of Skyler. Yeah. And also I do coaching. If anyone's going through a religious transition or a life transition, such as divorce.

John Dehlin [02:39:43] How do they reach out to you?

Samantha Shelley [02:39:45] I prefer for people to reach out through my personal Instagram account, the Samspo in my DMs.

John Dehlin [02:39:51] That's T H E S A M S P O.

Samantha Shelley [02:39:55] You can just type my name in Samantha Shelley and find it.

John Dehlin [02:39:58] Samantha Shelley. S H E L I E Y.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:02] I love the spelling out in the podcast when the description box is right there.

John Dehlin [02:40:07] All right. Sorry for helping you. Anyway, people close to me have worked with Samantha and had really good experiences, so I can give Samantha a thumbs up. Is there Any chance, Carol willing, that you come back and co host? Maybe with Kara? Maybe you can co host with Kara.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:32] And I'm not even in the picture, I think. Send your requests to patreon.com no. Yeah, I'd love to come back. I love Moment Stories. This has been really fun. Yeah, I love listening to people's stories. It's like the most interesting thing to do in the world. You have a good job.

John Dehlin [02:40:45] We kind of have a cool job.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:46] Yeah.

Chandler Roberson [02:40:47] This is awesome.

John Dehlin [02:40:48] Kara's always like, I have the best job in the world.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:50] She is. She loves that job.

John Dehlin [02:40:54] All right, all right, well, thank you, Samantha, and shout out to Tanner and check out Zeph on the shelf, an amazing YouTube channel. They also do Tik Tok and Instagram, and they've got a Patreon and Amazing. All right.

Chandler Roberson [02:41:09] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:41:09] Well, I'll just say thanks to everyone who joined us on the live stream. We really appreciate anyone when you do super chats on the live stream and you click the dollar sign, those donations help pay for Samantha co hosting or Cara or Gerardo with cinematography or me or Brooklyn who does editing and. And the studio and all the expenses that go into running a nonprofit. So thanks to everyone who donates and supports Mormon Stories of the Open Stories Foundation. We couldn't do this without you. And we lose 10 to 20 recurring donors a month because either financial hardship or people lose interest or people don't like that. I've made changes sometimes, and we're always having to hustle and recruit new donors to replace old old ones. So if you. If you can't afford to donate to Mormon Stories, don't feel a scent of guilt. Just enjoy it. We give it away for free because that's what we want. And if you are in a position to support Mormon Stories Podcast and the Open Stories foundation, please do. You can go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button or the link in the description of this YouTube episode, or even on your podcast app. Click on the donate button at Mormon Stories at the top of the page. Sign up for a monthly donation. Whatever you can afford. You can know that your donations are tax deductible in the US that we're 100% transparent in our finances, and that 100% of your donations will go towards the mission of the Open Stories foundation, which is providing full, informed consent to both Mormons and prospective Mormons, and to supporting Mormons in faith crisis and to supporting healing and growth and community for people who end up leaving Mormonism. I think those are all worthy causes and I will do this job until I'm 75 years old, which is in another 23 years. As long as you are willing to support. And we'll keep bringing on amazing co hosts and grow our organization to help and reach even more people as long as you're willing to support us. So please support us if you can. And there are other ways to support us. Positive reviews on our Facebook page, positive reviews on the Apple podcast app, subscribing to us across TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and YouTube, liking our stuff, commenting on our stuff, sharing it with the world. All of those things help us as well. So thanks for your support. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and most importantly, stay tuned for another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Bye everybody. Take care. Thanks again.

Chandler Roberson [02:43:56] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:43:56] Thanks Samantha.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.