Welcome and Introduction to Street Epistemology Week

Part 1 of 5 · Ep. 1513

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your two co hosts for today, Dr. John Dehlin. It is December 6, 2021 and I am joined by the amazing, the funny, the thoughtful, the wise, Kara Burrell.

Guest 5 [00:00:15] Kara Burrell. Oh, me. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] What's up, boss?

Guest 5 [00:00:18] Nice to see you.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] I'm excited for today.

Guest 5 [00:00:20] I'm so excited for today and this week. You guys are going to need to buckle into your seatbelts. We are going to take you on a ride, let me tell you. So what are we talking about today, John?

John Dehlin [00:00:31] So today, this week is Anthony Magnabosco slash Street Epistemology Week. And for most of my audience, that will mean nothing. But for my really plugged in connected audience, they're going to be super excited. I don't want to spend too much time giving an intro, but we're going to be doing five consecutive days covering street epistemology. And we had Anthony Magnabosco here in studio at Thrive a couple weeks ago. He spoke at Thrive. We did four episodes with Anthony and Carol. Why don't you just do a super quick overview because the whole point of today is to show instead of tell because we're going to be talking about street epistemology for four more episodes. So give us just the one minute super high level intro. Yeah, once upon a time.

Guest 5 [00:01:15] Thankfully, I think Mormon Stories listeners are very intelligent people. If you are here, then you don't need a lot of explanation. And we are going to show and not tell kind of what street epistemology is because it's better to watch it be done than try to have an intellectual conversation to try to break it down. So a quick overview. Street epistemology was developed by Peter Boghossian, who's the person who coined the phrase in a book called Manual for Creating Atheist. I know that's a little bit of a scary title for some people, but it's just about investigating truth claims and seeing if people have good reasons to believe the things that they believe. And it's done in a very cordial, friendly manner. And Anthony Magnavasco has a fantastic YouTube channel that we have his link. And the link tree for Anthony and street epistemology will be in the show notes below if you want to check out more of his channel. So I thought the best way to introduce Anthony Magnabosco Week Street Epistemology Week is just to show two of his most popular clips from his YouTube channel, talking with Mormons on the Street. He just stands out. This first one is going to be at a University. The second one's going to be on a hiking trail where he has all kinds of people walk by and he just asks them if they want to take a claim and, and go through the reasons that um, believe the things that they believe. And he has like GoPros on him and he edits them together and they're really popular. So the first one is him talking at a university with a couple missionaries. And so we're just gonna play the clips. You won't hear a peep out of us. And I have confidence that the Mormon Stories listeners will kind of just pick up the technique, his interview style, and a little bit about street epistemology. And he develops it, other people develop it. There's lots of other great YouTube channels that do the same thing. And so no technique is perfect. But I think that you'll kind of glean some interesting insights from how to have non confrontational conversations with people who have differing beliefs. So I love it. I think that's about it.

John Dehlin [00:03:10] I'll add 20 seconds. Just it. For those of you who don't know, Anthony has double the subscribers on YouTube that Mormon stories does. He really is kind of an international legend. And like you say, he's developed this method of talking to people about their beliefs that just, it's not. The goal is not to take people's beliefs away from them, it's not to challenge their beliefs. It's just to have them learn more about why they believe what they believe. And it can be a really effective method, we think an effective tool to help you as progressive and post Mormons talk to believing family and friends. And so what you're going to hear today and over the next five days today, we're going to just introduce street epistemology to you with Anthony talking to two different sets of Mormons, like you said, a missionary couple and then a married couple. And that will, that will be the showing of you of what street epistemology is in a Mormon context. Day two is going to be us getting Anthony's story of how he developed street epistemology and why and a little bit about his background. Day three is going to be us kind of doing an introduction or an overview of what a street apostle epistemology is with Anthony. Day four is going to be. I think I'm most excited about this.

Guest 5 [00:04:25] We, I told you guys to buckle your seatbelts because we, we didn't have the time to go and shove Anthony out on the street to go do this in Utah. We wish we could have. So we did the Next best thing is we had the very noble and courageous Sean McCraney come in and talk about his beliefs. He's a Christian pastor here in Salt Lake. And we had Anthony kind of do his interview technique with Sean with some very interesting results. So that's part four.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] Yeah, we, Sean McCann.

Guest 5 [00:04:57] Incredible. It is.

John Dehlin [00:04:59] I, Anthony Magnabosco, literally doing street epistemology with a Christian ex Mormon. Christian pastor Sean McCready. It's amazing. And then day five is going to be Kara and I being the role model of believing Mormon parents.

Guest 5 [00:05:15] Is your seatbelt tight enough? We spend about an hour in character as Mormon and parents, and we have Anthony kind of role play using a street epistemology technique. Because street epistemology kind of has the word street in it. It's usually done with strangers. So when you do it with somebody that's close to you, that's a loved one, it's a little bit different. So you'll see the way that he applies the technique as if he were coming out as somebody who maybe lost their faith to, like believing Mormon parents. And me and John play those Mormon parents. So it's insightful. It's funny. I forget the name of the prophet. It's all the things. You're gonna love it.

John Dehlin [00:05:49] Yeah, it's going to be great. So it's going to be a great week. We hope you love street epistemology. And with. And, oh, and if you're just listening, that's totally fine. Know that when. When Anthony does, as you said, when he does street epistemology, he does it with GoPros with multiple camera angles. And so you will probably get the full effect from this series if you watch it. But I think the way you've edited it, there will still be a lot of value. You'll still get 99% of the value by listening.

Guest 5 [00:06:17] Yeah, I think you'll get 99% of the value. Might miss a few words here and there. He has microphone phones on his GoPros and things. And so I took, with his permission, some of his YouTube videos. They're pretty long. They're usually about an hour long, 30 minutes, 40 minutes. And so I cut out a little bit of it. So it's a little bit more condensed than the ones that you'll find on his YouTube channel. But we're just going to go ahead and play two of these interviews. They're about 30 minutes each.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] So this first one is Anthony meeting a couple Mormon missionaries. Is that right?

Guest 5 [00:06:44] Right.

First Street Epistemology Clip with Mormon Students

John Dehlin [00:06:44] All right, everyone. Here is the first clip of street epistemology. With Anthony Magnabosco in a Mormon conte. Hope you enjoy it and feel free to comment here on the live stream if you're joining us live.

Guest 5 [00:06:56] Yeah. Thanks, everyone.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:07:02] Let's go. Oh, hey, gentlemen. How are you?

Video Clip 1 [00:07:04] Good.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:05] What's going on?

Video Clip 1 [00:07:06] Missionaries for our church, and so we go around and give people free pictures of Jesus Christ and.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:10] Is that what that one is? I saw this up on the thing. Somebody posted a thing of Jesus over here. Did you see it?

Video Clip 1 [00:07:15] Heck, yeah.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:16] That's one of our pictures.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:16] Is that one of yours?

Video Clip 1 [00:07:17] Yeah.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:18] I don't know. Why? There's a picture of a girl here.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:19] Yeah, I don't know about that one either. Yeah, you kind of threw that on there.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:22] Okay.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:23] Added to it.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:23] I don't know if you guys stuck that up there or somebody else did.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:25] Yeah.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:26] You want one?

Video Clip 1 [00:07:27] Not really, no. Would you guys be interested in doing an interview about your faith and why you actually think that it's true? Sure, why not?

Video Clip 1 [00:07:36] What does it entail?

Video Clip 1 [00:07:38] It entails asking respectful yet challenging questions about how you arrived at your conclusions. And let me just caveat here.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:47] Yeah.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:48] This isn't to trick you or be a gotcha or to make you look

Video Clip 1 [00:07:51] stupid, but it's to, like, interview, like,

Video Clip 1 [00:07:53] genuine people out there.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:55] Yep.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:56] Now, I usually talk to people about all sorts of claims. However, it's quite obvious that your claim, I think, would be that. That your God is real.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:03] Yeah.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:03] We can even talk about a completely different claim if you want. We can set aside the claim that God is real and talk about something else. The idea here with what I'm doing is to take your claim and respectfully explore it with you by listening, by figuring out what your best argument is for your position, and yet gently challenging how you got there.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:24] Okay.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:25] You want to give it a go. And here's the other thing, too. You have full control over this. Okay. In fact, if you want, I could even put some blue tape over your name tags so your names aren't even apparent. I can even blur your face. Or at the very least at the end of the conversation if you are worried about it, you can message. I'll give you an email and you can say, don't use the footage or blur our faces or whatever. The idea here, like I said, is not to embarrass you. It's to be a helpful aid in your reflection on how you arrived at your conclusion.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:55] Okay.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:55] Yeah.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:56] And what is this for exactly?

Video Clip 1 [00:08:58] I'm doing street epistemology. Have you heard of it yet?

Video Clip 1 [00:09:00] No.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:01] You haven't? Okay. Yeah. Well, Take these for one thing.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:04] Okay. Thank you.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:05] Yes. Street epistemology is a conversational technique that you can use with anybody when they make a claim. In fact, there was just a guy that walked by here who says he's been watching my videos and it's helping him engage with his father on politics. So instead of arguing and debating, he uses questions with his dad now. And they've had much better dialogues because he's adopted this approach.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:26] Very fascinating.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:28] Yeah. You seem hesitant. You seem like you're ready to go. That's kind of the sense that I'm getting, and that's.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:32] I only fear. Not that I'd be wrong, but I'd be saying the wrong thing. I do that a lot.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:39] Could there be value in saying something incorrect and discovering later that there's maybe a better way of phrasing it or a better argument for the view?

Guest 2 [00:09:49] Absolutely.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:09:51] How could you discover that you actually have a better argument for your position if you don't currently surface the ones that you have?

Guest 2 [00:09:57] Fair point.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:09:57] Absolutely. I want to help you figure out what your best argument is for your view. That LDS church has the truth.

Guest 2 [00:10:03] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:10:04] And I want to try to approach it from a very neutral position. Even though I. I may be a Mormon, I may not be a Mormon. I can even disclose to you where I stand in your claim before we even go, if you want to do that, at the risk of possibly making you more defensive. And if you're okay with that, I'd like to move here so I can actually get you guys on camera, too. Yeah, but that. There's. There's no pressure either way.

Guest 2 [00:10:22] Okay. Just like a YouTube video. Is that what it is?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:10:24] Yep.

Guest 2 [00:10:25] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:10:25] Ideally, yeah. I appreciate you stopping. You guys are okay with me recording this so far, at least. Okay. My first name is Anthony, by the way.

Guest 2 [00:10:33] Pleasure to meet you. I'm Elder.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:10:34] Okay.

Guest 3 [00:10:34] I'm Elder.

John Dehlin [00:10:35] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:10:36] Those are your last names?

Guest 3 [00:10:37] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:10:37] Yep.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:10:38] How do you feel about me? Do you want me to beep those out? Would you rather. Are you okay with your name showing? No.

Guest 2 [00:10:43] We represent Jesus Christ.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:10:44] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:10:45] Do our best, too. So.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:10:46] Awesome. I appreciate your honesty and your willingness to share, you know, share your reasons for thinking that is true and also maybe your methods for confirming the reasons. Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:10:56] Cool.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:10:56] And I don't like to keep people for too long either. I usually set a timer to keep it really brief.

Guest 2 [00:10:59] Okay. How long are you gonna be expecting?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:02] I usually set it for four minutes. However, with two people, it's almost impossible. So maybe I can maybe do it in maybe seven minutes or Eight minutes.

Guest 2 [00:11:08] Okay. Yeah, we can.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:10] Can you spare that?

Guest 2 [00:11:11] Yeah. How's it going, brother?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:12] Well, I'm also not setting a timer to rush you.

Guest [00:11:14] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:15] I'm setting it to just respect your time.

Guest 2 [00:11:17] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:18] I mean, this just a little bit so I can get both of us, all of us. I sometimes don't know where people are gonna. Are gonna stand until they actually stand.

Guest 2 [00:11:26] Well, you just.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:27] You place us. I think that's gonna be okay. I think the sun probably won't be hitting that too much. Okay. Let's start with this. What brings you to the campus? Are you members of. You guys go to the school here or anything like that? Okay. I don't. I don't go here either. But we're allowed to be here. Yeah, we're allowed to be here to engage with the students. And I think we're going about it in different ways, of course.

Guest 2 [00:11:44] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:45] If I could give my view on it, I think you're probably going around telling people what they should think, maybe. Are you doing that? Whereas I'm asking people why they think things.

Guest 2 [00:11:55] Okay, absolutely.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:56] I don't want to put words in your mouth, though.

Guest 2 [00:11:57] That's not perfect.

Guest 3 [00:11:59] We're here sharing what we believe and just helping people come to their own conclusions. And we're inviting them to try things out that we found works in our lives, such as praying and reading scriptures and really just trying to find what they believe.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:14] Okay. You're out here asking people what they believe, is that right?

Guest 2 [00:12:19] Essentially. Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:20] Is one of your goals to have them believe what you believe?

Guest 2 [00:12:23] Absolutely.

Guest [00:12:24] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:12:24] I think so.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:25] I appreciate your honesty.

Guest 4 [00:12:26] Of course.

Guest 2 [00:12:26] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:27] I suppose if I thought that I had the truth of the matter when it comes to a God existing, then I would be out here doing exactly what you're doing.

Guest 2 [00:12:35] Yeah, absolutely. The important thing to note, though, is that the things that we share with people, we never expect them to just take our word for it. That's the last thing we want people to do. We believe that this should be a very personal conviction, very personal witness that you have.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:48] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:12:49] From this experience. And so what we do as missionaries is we teach brief lessons, sometimes just 10 minutes long. And that's what we do a lot on campus, just with quick lessons.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:58] Do you do them right here on the street or do you invite people to come to like an after. An after school thing?

Guest 2 [00:13:02] Either or. I mean, we have meetings on Wednesdays and of course, Sunday service, but we like to meet people on campus just to help them out. Middle of the day. We believe that Jesus Christ helps people in all aspects of their lives.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:15] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:13:15] Just spiritually, but also academically. If you can bless anybody's life through a quick 10 minute lesson, that's our goal.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:22] Did it take more than 10 minutes for you to come to accept it as truth? Or was there some other. Was there some other path that you each took? It's a little bit tougher when I'm talking to two because maybe you guys arrived at this conclusion differently.

Guest 3 [00:13:33] No, of course we both arrived at it a different way. We were both raised in the church. I personally just. I didn't really have like my own belief of it for a while. It was.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:46] Even though you were raised in it, there.

Guest 3 [00:13:49] There's a point where I. I questioned it myself. I had to get my own answer. I couldn't just rely off what my parents told me the entire time.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:54] Beautiful.

Guest 3 [00:13:54] And so that's when I really did my own research. I delved into it. I looked at both sides of the argument.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:14:01] You actually had some questions about it and you decided to research it. And then if I understand right, the research concluded when you found sufficient answers to think that is true?

Guest 4 [00:14:11] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:14:11] Okay. What was your. Why are you out here? Actually, you must think that it's true to some extent. How did you actually get to your position?

Guest 2 [00:14:19] Very true. I was born in the church like he was, but I fell away in high school. I think that was just a result of being born in the church and

Anthony Magnabosco [00:14:26] fell away in high school.

Guest 2 [00:14:28] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:14:28] What is. Can you define what that means?

Guest 2 [00:14:30] Fell away as in no longer living the standards of the gospel.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:14:34] Okay. Is that equivalent to questioning or is it different?

Guest 2 [00:14:38] I think it'd be questioning because I was questioning whether or not it was true by the actions. If I knew it was true. And I probably would have followed the teachings of the church.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] Right,

Anthony Magnabosco [00:14:48] I see. So you must have been questioning at that moment as well.

Guest 2 [00:14:51] Yeah, I. I believe that.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:14:54] Don't let me put words in your mouth. That's not the case. Okay.

Guest 2 [00:14:56] I believe that I knew that Jesus Christ was real, that God is real. But the fact that they knew me personally, I don't know if I knew that. I believe that they're more of an abstraction at that point.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:15:09] When you say they.

Guest 2 [00:15:10] God and Heavenly Father.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:15:12] God and Heavenly Father. I meant sometimes I don't speak your lingo, so you might have to translate a little bit for me.

Guest 2 [00:15:18] I said that wrong. Jesus Christ in Heavenly Father.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:15:20] Okay. Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father. It sounds like research brought you out of your questioning phase. What brought you out of that questioning phase?

Guest 2 [00:15:29] Testing it.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:15:30] Testing it, we have a belief, the word of wisdom. You mentioned that you had the ability to test the claim that these gods are real, that there's Jesus and there's. Did you say the Holy Spirit?

Guest 2 [00:15:42] Yeah, yeah, essentially. And I did that through what they call the word of wisdom.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:15:47] The word of wisdom, yeah. Was there a testing component for you as well or was it strictly research?

Guest 3 [00:15:52] It was research and testing.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:15:55] Okay. This could be a back and forth too, by the way, if you want to ask me questions. This isn't just like a one way directed thing. Can you tell me a little bit about the testing methodology that you use to get to your conclusion that this is true?

Guest 2 [00:16:12] Of course. So the word of wisdom essentially is don't drink coffee or tea. We don't smoke, we don't drink, we don't use illegal drugs.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:16:23] And these are dictates though, right? Like how are these. I'm sorry, did you want to finish?

Guest 2 [00:16:28] These are commandments. Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:16:29] Is this how you went about testing to see if it was true?

Guest 2 [00:16:32] Yeah, I just, I went cold turkey on all of those.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:16:36] Cold turkey?

Guest 2 [00:16:37] Cold turkey.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:16:38] Okay.

Guest 3 [00:16:39] Because there's promises with the word of wisdom that if you do these things, if you don't drink coffee, if you don't drink tea, if you don't do, if you don't smoke or do illegal drugs, that you'll find your body to be in a healthier condition, your mind to be more alert and all these things, all these benefits that God can give you in your life.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:16:56] Was this how you went about testing it as well?

Guest 3 [00:16:58] I went through the Book of Mormon, which is what we usually help. This is the ultimate thing that we have people test is the Book of Mormon because it's the keystone of our religion is what we call it. Because if the Book of Mormon is true, then our religion stands and if it's not true, then our religion false.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:17:13] How did you test the Book of Mormon to determine that it was actually true?

Guest 3 [00:17:17] So there's a lot of people who do worldly tests because it claims to be a record of the people in the ancient Americas. And so people go through, they compare the record in here to the record, like archaeological sites and stuff like that. And there, there have been similarities and stuff like that. But there's a promise, this is a spiritual promise. So it doesn't go through the worldly sense that if you pray to know if the Book Mormon's true, you will really receive an answer.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:17:44] Okay. There's something in the book that says, I want to repeat this back. So I'm not so I'm totally understanding it. And yet also for you to hear what it is you're saying.

Guest 2 [00:17:53] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:17:54] If I understand what you're saying, there's something in the Book of Mormon that says you can do a set of actions to get an answer that will confirm to you that the book is true.

Guest 3 [00:18:04] Yes.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:05] Okay. And that's your test. You did that? I suppose, yeah. Okay. Did you really do it? You did. Okay. Because sometimes I meet people that I'm wondering, did they really do it or did they just read this that says that you can do it? And maybe they thought about doing it or they heard other people doing it, or maybe they sort of like they thought about it maybe over the weekend and they just say that that was me doing it.

Guest 3 [00:18:30] I think that's something that I know, for one, I really had to do it because this is two years of my life and I'm putting on my line, and the rest of my life afterwards, I'm putting on the line here. Do I really want to go and spend two years of my life preaching for a church if I don't truly know it to be true myself?

Guest 2 [00:18:44] Okay.

Guest 3 [00:18:44] It just kind of seems fake. And there's a lot of social pressure

Guest 2 [00:18:46] in the church sometimes.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:47] Sure.

Guest 3 [00:18:48] I. I don't really give into social pressure.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:51] Good for you. Good for you.

Guest 3 [00:18:53] Seriously, I'm a stubborn guy. Oh, good.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:55] I know. I. I think the social pressure that can come with that was actually like seven or eight minutes.

Guest 2 [00:19:01] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:19:02] Can I finish my thought? And then you can ask me any question you want or we can keep going. I would imagine that the social pressures to conform to certain beliefs can. Driving a lot of. A lot of the reasons why people actually think that it's true. But I'm getting the sense that that's not the reason that you're. That you acknowledge that that's a possibility.

Guest 3 [00:19:19] Yeah, there's some people that have that social pressure, but really what we try to teach in the church is to not be socially pressured into it. Find your own. Test it for yourself.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:19:28] Yeah. I love this idea of being able to test our beliefs to see if they match the claim. How did you determine that this was a successful test? That you actually. That the claim passed the test? I know that you each did different tests. Maybe we can go to you because your friend has been talking for a little bit. But can you take me through your testing process? Do you want to tell me a little bit more about it? How'd you test it? I understand that you. You decided to stop consuming specific items what was it about that action that led you to think afterwards? Check, Mark. This passes the test.

Guest 2 [00:20:02] You know, sometimes we sound a little bit crazy in the church because we talk about these miracles and blessings that come into our lives from doing these things. And you may think to yourself, I'm not going to drink a cup of coffee. And miracles and blessings can happen in my life.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:20:16] And I mean, whether strictly from refraining from drinking coffee, Correct?

Guest 2 [00:20:21] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:20:22] You were noticing things happening in your life to confirm to you that by not drinking coffee. And that's what the book says. This is how I can test the book to be true.

Guest 2 [00:20:33] You know what? That's actually not even in the Book of Mormon, the coffee part. We believe that that was a.

Guest 4 [00:20:38] I

Guest 2 [00:20:39] don't want to create a revelation that was given to a prophet that we shouldn't do that.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:20:43] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:20:44] The amazing thing about the church and about the Book of Mormon and about the Word of Wisdom and everything that we do in the church when we test it, if we're looking for an answer, the answer we get is very specific to us. It's a very personalized, spiritual answer that we believe comes right. So almost undeniable when we get the answer.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:21:01] Is it a personal answer to you, too, or would you differ on that?

Guest 3 [00:21:04] There was a time that I was alone in the car listening to music, and just that personal answer, for some reason, a thought came straight into my mind like it's true. When I was. I wasn't dwelling on the subject. I was just kind of minding my own business, doing my own thing. And all of a sudden that thought went straight in my mind, straight in my heart, and I felt the spirit. I felt peace. I felt joy and happiness.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:21:27] Okay. Is it possible for somebody to have a personal answer like that for a confirmation that your holy book is true or a completely different holy book is true, or a completely different God is real? Do you think a person can have a personal answer after embarking on a series, a series of research and testing, and it pops in their mind that it's true? Could somebody actually have that happen to them and be concluding that something is true when in reality it isn't?

Guest 3 [00:22:04] Here's kind of my thoughts on that. Is God is good, right? God is perfect and he leads us to do good things.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:22:10] And so if he exists, if he

Guest 3 [00:22:13] exists, and I'm going off the assumption that he does, because I for one, know that he does.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:22:19] Hold on a second. I don't know if I could let that go.

Guest 3 [00:22:21] That's my knowledge is, I know you

Anthony Magnabosco [00:22:25] started with the assumption that he's real before embarking on testing to see if he's real.

Guest 3 [00:22:31] Just looking at the world and everything has shown me that there is a higher power. And that's just the only logical conclusion that I can draw to. So that's the assumption I started off with with is that there is a higher power.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:22:41] Did you start with an assumption as well? Yeah, of course you did.

Guest 2 [00:22:45] And that comes just a faith or a hope that things can be better and that there's an answer to the questions I have.

Testing Faith and the Book of Mormon

Anthony Magnabosco [00:22:52] Last question. And then I would like you to ask me any question that you feel like you would like to ask.

Guest 2 [00:22:56] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:22:58] Why would you embark on testing if you've already assumed that it's true?

Guest 2 [00:23:03] One, because I didn't have the answer for myself. And two, because I wasn't happy in my life. And so any sort of hope for happiness or something that I was sincerely looking for, I was looking in personal development books and seminars, whatever, looking for this peace of mind of why I'm here, how can I be successful in this life.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:23:23] Did this belief fill that hole for you?

Guest 2 [00:23:25] Absolutely.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:23:26] Okay, okay. Okay. So feel free. My name's Anthony. Ask me anything, anything that you'd like to know about my position on your claim or why I'm out here or anything along those lines. I'll try to be as open of a book as I possibly can.

Guest 2 [00:23:39] Okay, let me just directly ask you that then. What are your thoughts on this, what we're sharing with you?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:23:44] I. I get a little alarmed when I hear people who say, I've started with the assumption that it's true, and then I set out to test it to see if it is, Because I'd be worried that I'd be imbuing a bias in my outcome.

John Dehlin [00:23:56] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:23:57] And to my question, too, I'd be wondering, well, why would I actually care about testing it if I've already started with the assumption that it's true? Which makes me wonder. I know this is about you asking me stuff, but you're making me wonder, do you really care if it's true or not, if it's not true, or at the very least, you discover that you don't have good reasons for thinking that it is. Would you want to discover that?

Guest 2 [00:24:20] Absolutely. Absolutely.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:24:22] What do you think?

Guest 3 [00:24:24] I didn't start off with the assumption that this specific religion is true. I started off with the assumption that God is real and I didn't know which religion was the true one. And that's the testing that I went about and did to See, if this

Anthony Magnabosco [00:24:35] was truly the true church, what was your assumption? I think you had said that you had also started with an assumption. Did you make a delineation between God and the religion?

Guest 2 [00:24:45] I'd say yeah, for sure. I guess it wasn't. I believe that the religion is true, although maybe I would have already.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:24:53] But do you think that your upbringing could have any bearing on your initial assumption that the God was real?

Guest 2 [00:24:59] Absolutely. I think if I grew up Hindu, I'd probably think that. That God was real. Yeah, I think it's the same God. But we all pray to the same God, essentially.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:25:11] If somebody was raised in India to believe that Vishnu is real and then later they discovered a specific Hindu religion because they started with the assumption that that was real. And maybe they even set out on testing it and they noticed things that were happening in their life to confirm that it was real. Could somebody go through all those steps and be 100% sure that it's true, when in reality it isn't?

Guest 2 [00:25:39] The answer to that question I would give you is that the spirit of God, we believe, testifies of truth. And so the spirit can testify of what you may consider to be a universal truth or principles that are true. Now, whether they have the fullness of the truth, I don't know if I would say so. But if you're doing things with the intention of. That's following God and you're doing your best, I believe that the spirit of God will testify to you that you're doing good things. He wants to bless us, is what we believe.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:18] Does it require starting with the assumption that the God is real and being exposed to it at a young age to believe that the spirit. What'd you call it? The spirit of God?

Guest 2 [00:26:31] That ghost.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:32] The spirit of the Holy Ghost is real.

Guest 2 [00:26:38] Go ahead.

Guest [00:26:39] So you're ask.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:40] Do you understand my question? I can repeat it.

Guest 3 [00:26:41] So you're asking if. Because we were raised this way, that's why we. You have to do.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:46] Okay, yeah, please. Sometimes I ask questions and I even confuse myself. And I don't want to confuse anybody here. The last thing I want is anyone to be confused. I think you were saying that

Guest 5 [00:27:01] the

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:01] way that your situation would be different is different than somebody who was raised with a belief in India and he came to believe that Vishnu was real and then gravitated to a specific religion. And they start seeing all these benefits and they even see positive results to confirm their testing. The way that you're not in that category, you're different because the. The spirit of the spirit of The Holy Ghost is real. So my point though is how does a person conclude that the spirit of the Holy Ghost is real? Does that also start with the assumption that it's real or something else?

Guest 2 [00:27:36] I would think so. It starts with a faith or a hope that God is real and that he wants to bless us in our lives. I think that has to be within everybody who's looking for an honest answer to the question.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:49] What do you think about what he said about faith and hope? Would you say that those are required in order to be sure that what it is you're thinking and you're out here promoting is actually true?

Guest 3 [00:28:06] Trying to think about that because.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:28:07] Take your time. I should have said this much earlier.

Guest 3 [00:28:09] I'm not let him influence me.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:28:11] Please don't again. And vice versa.

Guest 3 [00:28:12] Yeah, we're both pretty stubborn people, but there's some people who don't have any, any belief in Jesus Christ or even any sort of higher power at all. And all of a sudden they'll start recognizing things like that in their life. And so they don't initially have that faith in a higher power, yet all of a sudden we'll recognize something and say, wait, maybe that's a higher power.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:28:29] Could our fellow in India tell me the exact same thing?

Guest 2 [00:28:34] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:28:35] That he's noticing things happening in his life and it's. Maybe he wasn't even exposed to it. Maybe he never even started with the assumption that the God is real or that his religion is true or that the spirit of Vishnu is. You know, he gets that feeling in his bosom.

Guest 2 [00:28:47] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:28:50] How could we actually tell for sure that what it is you're believing is true? How can we really test it and be as unbiased and neutral on the claim as possible?

Guest 3 [00:29:00] That's kind of the thing is you can't really test it by worldly means. It's all based on the person. And no amount of science or testing can ever prove one thing or another. It just stands.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:29:13] It's untestable

Guest 3 [00:29:16] in a proving 100% certainty worldly sense. Not to the fullest extent.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:29:23] Are you 100% certain that the Book of Mormon is a source of truth?

Guest 3 [00:29:29] Yes.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:29:31] Did you have the ability to test it?

Guest 3 [00:29:34] Yeah, I've been. That's what the research was is there's people who have done in depth studies on like even the way that the Book of Mormon speaks, the way that there's different authors in it, all translated by one person. There's different scientific researches that have been done in the ancient texts, the Bible and other Hebrew texts. Against this, there's archaeological studies that have been made and that have been compared to things that have been put in the Book of Mormon about temples being built and there being civilizations a million.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:02] And yet in order for somebody to validate that to. To conclude that it's true, they would have to embark on the test that the book itself recommends that you do.

Guest 3 [00:30:10] The spiritual journey, the spiritual journey of secular learning can prove God.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:15] Okay.

Guest 3 [00:30:16] It would take the entire essence of needing faith in Jesus Christ out of it.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:21] Say that again.

Guest 3 [00:30:22] It would. If you could prove using, like, if you could prove 100 certainty that God is real, then you no longer need to believe in him and have that faith. It no longer is a test. Because that's. That's something I believe, is that, oh, you need to be tested that there's a God. It's not just you need to go through a test. Does that make sense?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:42] This is what I hear you saying. It may not be what you're saying. It almost sounds like you're saying it's more virtuous to believe that it's true without testing it and take it on faith that it is true. If that's not what you're saying, in what sense? Testing it to the point where we can determine that it's factually true or not.

Guest 3 [00:31:03] Like God is factually true or like

Anthony Magnabosco [00:31:07] God is factually true, or maybe that the claims in the book are factually true or that the feeling that you're getting when you abstain from drinking coffee for a significant amount of time is a good verification that it's true.

Guest 3 [00:31:17] It's not that it's more virtuous to go without testing. You should definitely test and try it for yourself. You should definitely know what you're talking about.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:31:26] I almost sense that I'm getting two messages here. That. That it's not necessary to test it and that. That you should be testing it. I don't know. I don't know if that's the case.

Guest 2 [00:31:36] But

Anthony Magnabosco [00:31:40] let me just put it this way. Can a person be 100% sure that that book is a source of truth without any testing whatsoever?

Guest [00:31:51] No.

Guest 2 [00:31:53] You need to be an opinion, then. An uneducated opinion.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:31:56] It would be an uneducated. Yes. This Book of Mormon or any other holy book for that matter, possibly would be an opinion if the person didn't have the ability to adequately test the claim.

Guest 2 [00:32:07] Yeah, absolutely. And you can do that with any book. Magic Treehouse. This is the best book ever. What's inside of it?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:13] I don't know.

Guest 2 [00:32:14] Way cool picture in the front of it, though.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:16] Great stories.

Guest 2 [00:32:17] That's why it's the.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:18] Make me feel good when I read it.

Guest 2 [00:32:19] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:21] Huh. Last question. And then please ask me questions.

Guest 2 [00:32:25] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:25] Because I really do want this to be a back and forth and I have a tendency to keep asking questions in return. I'm so sorry. It's part of my nature, I suppose. If you discovered that you don't have a good way to adequately test the claim, meaning there's no way that I can really determine that it's true or false in this life. If you discovered that you can't test it, would you lower your confidence in the claim?

Guest 3 [00:32:54] Very much so. I feel like if someone came up to me with a new version of the Bible and said, look at this, this is truth, I wouldn't be like, without a way to test it for myself. I would kind of sit there like, what do you want me to do with this? How do I know if it's true?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:33:08] Okay. Testing is important for you in order to conclude that this is a true claim. How do you feel about that?

Guest 2 [00:33:14] What do you think? Same thing. Yeah. Okay,

Anthony Magnabosco [00:33:18] well, I've got like a million more questions for you, but gosh, I'm so tempted to keep going. I really think we can fully explore your justifications and your methods for arriving at this conclusion if we stuck around for another 30 minutes. But one of the advantages of this approach is to go at the speed that my conversation partners are comfortable with. Because oftentimes I ask questions that maybe you never heard before.

Guest 2 [00:33:45] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:33:45] And hopefully that's the case. And hopefully, remember at the very start we were talking about. Well, maybe I would say something and then I discover that maybe that's not the best reason.

Guest 3 [00:33:52] Maybe it's not the best way to explain.

Guest 2 [00:33:54] Yeah.

Guest 4 [00:33:54] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:33:54] Maybe it's not the best reason myself. It's like, this is my excuse. Oh, wait, no, it's not exactly that.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:33:59] Yes. I really wish I worded it differently or used a different definition of that word or whatever. That's true.

Guest 3 [00:34:03] But there's also this, which is more

Guest 2 [00:34:05] the reason why I did it.

Guest 3 [00:34:06] I feel like I used to excuse my parents. It's like this reason. Well, it's kind of that reason, but it's more this reason.

Guest [00:34:11] It's.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:34:11] Yeah. Here's the way that I look at it. I kind of. I'm gonna use like an American football metaphor. Like maybe we started at the zero yard line and then maybe we've advanced to like the 40 yard line here. Like, I really think we made some significant progress. But maybe you go back and maybe as you're walking away, you talk about it, or you call somebody else in your organization and say, I have these really good questions and what. You know, what's the best answer? You might actually come back here and then we might actually start at the 10 yard line, you know, because you've come up with some better reasons. But I think if you keep coming back and we can keep exploring them, then we can keep advancing or. Or retreating down the field. Maybe it's not the best metaphor. I don't know.

Guest 2 [00:34:48] I get you.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:34:49] You get my point.

Guest 2 [00:34:50] I get what you're saying.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:34:50] Yeah. There's value in thinking about the reasons and methods that we're using to get to our conclusions, even though we may have regretted how we explained it initially. I suppose. Wonderful. That was cool.

Guest [00:35:03] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:03] You want to ask me some questions?

Guest 3 [00:35:05] What exactly is this method that we're.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:06] There's a card. You can look all into it. I think I gave you a sticker.

Guest 2 [00:35:09] Yeah, you did.

Guest 3 [00:35:10] But what's exactly the method that we just used? Asking questions sort of thing?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:14] I was using questions to fully reveal your reasons for thinking that it's true and your methodology for concluding that it's true.

Guest 3 [00:35:21] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:22] And testing was. Was a very important theme here.

Guest 3 [00:35:26] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:27] Like, is it really important or is not? You know, I actually am still a little kind of hazy on it for you guys.

Guest 3 [00:35:31] That's the thing is it's a mix of testing and faith.

Guest 2 [00:35:35] Is.

Guest 3 [00:35:35] You can test it to a certain point, but you can never get that 100% certainty. The rest, you walk by faith. And that's kind of the mix.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:41] Yeah. Gosh, I have so many questions. How.

Guest 2 [00:35:45] Also, just so you know, we have a website that talks all about this. You can look all this up on the. Oh, it's churchofjesuschrist.org.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:51] yeah. I'm more interested in the beliefs that people around me are walking around with.

Guest 2 [00:35:56] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:56] That motivate them to come out and engage with people and promote their. Their views. To see how did you get there? Did you really use a reliable process? Can I ask you you one more question?

Guest [00:36:08] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:09] It's about faith.

Guest 2 [00:36:09] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:10] I think you mentioned faith and hope. I don't know if we actually really defined it yet, but my question to you is how big of a factor is faith in your 100%? Is it like what you need to get from a 99 to 100 and you have all these other good testable reasons to get to the 99, or are you at a 1 and you need the faith to get to the hundred.

Guest 2 [00:36:31] Faith is the first principle.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:33] Excuse me, Repeat that?

Guest 2 [00:36:34] We believe that faith is the first principle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:38] Faith is the first principle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Guest 2 [00:36:42] Yep.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:44] What does that mean exactly? I mean, it sounds important.

Guest 2 [00:36:46] Yeah, yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:47] Relating it back to my confidence scale question, of course. If you can put it in numerical terms, how influential is faith in Your conclusion? Your 100% conclusion? I suppose that you have it right.

Guest 2 [00:37:01] Everything.

Guest 3 [00:37:02] Faith is essential. You can't reach that 100 without faith. Like you said, do we have the 1% or the 99%? And with the Book of Mormon, I'd say I have a 70 to 80% certainty that it is true scripture. And then the other 20 is where I walk by faith.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:37:16] Did you require faith to get to the 80%? The 70.

Guest 3 [00:37:19] 80% again, I could probably say I had 10 faith just to test it out. And then 80% more was by the book. Another 10%. I walk by faith.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:37:28] Okay, how about for you, is faith

Guest 2 [00:37:31] a factor in everything that I did?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:37:34] Okay. Okay, beautiful. That was a great talk. Oh, you know, I also have these little things. I know you guys give something away. Yeah, I actually give something away to people who talk to me. This is a little gear because these conversations get the gears going. At least they're supposed to. And would you like to have one of these three pieces as a gift?

Guest 2 [00:37:52] The yellow one?

Guest [00:37:53] Sure.

Guest 3 [00:37:53] Take the red.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:37:54] Okay. Thank you very much. And then if either of you see me out here again or you're in a pair again, or maybe they pair you up with somebody else or whatever, or maybe you have somebody else in your organization who you think might be able to help us figure this out. Better bring them by and. But in any case, you can come back and build out the set if the weather's good and I have a little bit of time in my schedule in the morning to the early afternoon, I'm usually here.

Guest 3 [00:38:16] That's cool.

Guest 2 [00:38:17] Can we email you if we have someone? I believe. Beg pardon? Can we email you if we have someone?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:38:20] Yes. Yeah, yeah. In fact, a lot of people email me to say, hey, we're going to be in in town on this day. Can I stop by and chat with you? Okay, beautiful. Thank you so much for your time. Do you have any more questions for me? I don't even think I answered where I stand on your claim.

Guest 3 [00:38:35] I was going to say I was. I'm kind of wondering, where are you

Anthony Magnabosco [00:38:37] on our claim on the scale from 0 to 100, where 100 is I'm absolutely sure that this is true. I can't be wrong on it. I can't be mistaken on your claim that your book is a source of truth and that your God is real. I'm at a 1 or 2% out of 100.

Guest 3 [00:38:53] Have you read the Book of Mormon before?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:38:54] I haven't.

Guest 3 [00:38:55] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:38:56] I haven't.

Guest 2 [00:38:56] Do you want one?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:38:58] I don't.

Guest 2 [00:38:58] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:38:59] Because I would rather have the people who think that it's true explain to me how they got to their conclusion. And if it's testable and reliable, when you have really good reasons, then I will accept your book. So I am open to taking it. So if we can't, let's keep the dialogue open. Okay.

Hosts Discuss the First Street Epistemology Clip

John Dehlin [00:39:20] All right. So that is part one. My headset messed up my hair. So that is part one of Anthony Magnam Bosco's first interview that we are sharing. Wasn't that fascinating in that case with two Mormon missionaries? Also, Anthony has joined us in the chat. So. Hey, Anthony, So glad you're here. Yeah. So we have. We have. Good. We have over 400 people listening live right now. We want. We want to jump right into the couple that Anthony interviews next. But before we do, I wrote down some notes on just a couple of things that were kind of notable. But, Kara, what are some of the. You edited this excerpt to kind of clean it up a tiny bit.

Guest 4 [00:40:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:02] What were some of the things that stuck out for you?

Guest 5 [00:40:04] If you'll notice how there's another actual street epistemology channel called cordial curiosity. So you'll notice the cordial nature in which Anthony engages with what are called interlocutors. Just your interview partner that you're talking to. So in a lot of spaces, especially atheists, they want to debate, they want to challenge, they want to go toe to toe talking about doctrine. And that's not the goal whatsoever, street epistemology. It's to get to the. The more fundamental baseline of what gives people their. Their confidence. And he'll go into. In this next video, into a confidence scale and what people's evidences are, and maybe if they had that evidence removed, how their confidence might change from that. So. So I just love Anthony's kindness and respect that he has. And you'll notice that he has concern and consent, and he wants to make sure people are as comfortable as possible. Again, going back to being as cordial as you can be. And I personally identify as an atheist, and I hope that a lot of people who are atheists and are talking with somebody who believes in God. And you might believe completely different things. I hope that people will take a lesson from Anthony on how to engage really respectfully from that.

John Dehlin [00:41:12] You'll, you, you guys will hear this tomorrow when we to Anthony about his story. But if any of you remember 9, 11, back in 2001, there was, there were years of sort of, you know, what were called New atheists, like Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, they were just going at believers and just slamming them and mocking them mercilessly. And there was a reaction to the New atheists that was basically, this is a turnoff. And in my sense from hearing Anthony's story was that he developed this method in part as a reaction to the new atheists saying, if we're jerks, we're, we're going to be turning people off and we're not going to get anywhere. So I think he had a commitment to being civil and respectful, building bridges. And that's one of the things I love about him. Just as a human, he just is that way.

Guest 5 [00:42:03] He's a better person than me, Anthony. He's a good guy. So me too. Yeah. I hope you guys will take away some of his just like cordial nature. He's, he's amazing. So thanks for joining in the chat as well, Anthony, and any believers I know there might be a believer or two in the chat, so you guys are obviously welcome. Everyone, if you are a fan of street epistemology, we're going to call it SE from now on because I can't say that mouthful so many times. But if you are a fan of Essie, please do your best practice in the chat to be nice and cordial with believers in the chat so that we can continue to have good conversations

John Dehlin [00:42:36] and we can practice. I, I noticed several people did this. We had it. We had a believer show up and say, hey all, I'm paraphrasing, but like, the spirit is something that you, you just feel it, you can't prove it. And several of you in the comments were practicing good speed street epistemology with our believing listeners. And we love that. Let's use our chats as a way to practice street epistemology.

Guest 5 [00:42:56] Ah, right on. And if you notice from the video we just showed the missionaries, with street epistemology, you kind of have to go at one claim. And with Mormonism, it's kind of a whole package deal. It's the Book of Mormon is true. It's Joseph Smith restored the true gospel. But if you notice, Anthony was kind of peeling back the onion layers to get to the idea that a belief in a God and a God that cares, a God that's intervening, was already foundational to those missionaries. And so you kind of have. That's why these conversations can be so long because there are so many layers. And so it's really important to nail down the claim that your interlock order is making.

John Dehlin [00:43:33] Yeah. Because it was like the missionaries were like, hey, if you pray to God, he'll tell you Book of Mormon's true. And Anthony's like, wait a minute. That assumes there's a God.

Guest 5 [00:43:41] He's like, there's a God, you know? Yeah. So establishing the claim is really important. And then you'll notice just kind of Anthony's technique of making sure to repeat back what the interlock order is saying. You never want to, in. In a debate style. It's almost common to straw man or misrepresent somebody's argument. We want to do the opposite of that. We want to steel man their argument. We want to say exactly what we think that they're saying to make sure we're not putting words in their mouth. So you notice that he did that. He'll do that in this, this next interview quite a lot. You'll notice that. And just making sure to clarify and then get into how we test those claims. So without further.

John Dehlin [00:44:17] A couple other things.

Guest 5 [00:44:18] Go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] I love how he always is. Is checking in with you said the interlocutors. Is that the term he uses? He's checking in with them, figuring out where they are, how they're doing. And he doesn't. And he does this with Shamakrini. This is one of the most powerful parts of the Shamakreni interview. Just to give you a preview. He checks in and if he feels like he's putting too much pressure or stressing them out or jumping ahead of them in a way that might be unhealthy for them. He'll stop and use restraint and say, I think. I think we've done enough for today. And he was checking in with the missionaries to kind of. To do that sort of pacing. I don't know what he calls it,

Guest 5 [00:44:56] but yeah, yeah, it's super respectful. Yeah. They have different courses that street epistemology is going to start and we will be discussing those in the next interviews throughout the day. And the very first one is actually informed consent. It's to start with your interlock order and. And tell them that I'm going to be asking you some questions and probe at your belief system. That might leave you leaving this conversation with Maybe some different beliefs than you walked into it. Are you comfortable with having a conversation that might affect your life from this point forward? And some people will say yes and some say no. So that's another really amazing part of what Anthony does and what the people with street epistemology. Street Epistemology International is the nonprofit that Anthony helps run. So it's. I think that's a really important part. You know, at Mormon stories, we're all about informed consent. So even if it came down to something like people believing in more rational things, which is what I would always like to see, if it comes at the cost of their mental health or them fraying relationships with family or friends, it's important to lead with empathy always still, even if we have differing beliefs. So that's what I really love about this.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] And we saw him do this. He lives this.

Guest 4 [00:46:00] He doesn't.

Guest 5 [00:46:00] He lives it.

John Dehlin [00:46:01] He doesn't just.

Guest 5 [00:46:01] You will see the Sean McCraney interview. It turns very interesting, you guys.

John Dehlin [00:46:05] So good. And then the missionaries were just like. You could tell a couple things. They're just like, they're not used to this. A lot of the comments were like, they didn't trade them for this in the mtc. You know what I mean? But they're sweet. They're sweet, thoughtful kids. But you could tell that they had only thought about their faith. Kind of a couple steps down.

Guest 5 [00:46:23] Right, right. Testability. Because to a missionary, to a Mormon. Testability, we think we have testability, but.

John Dehlin [00:46:29] Oh, yeah, just Holy Ghost in real

Guest 5 [00:46:31] world terms, it's sometimes. Doesn't always hold up, but.

John Dehlin [00:46:34] Yeah, yeah. And then. And then at the end, I just love. I love it where. Where the missionaries are like, so did you know, what do you think? Are you. Are you interested? Are you. Is our, you know, is our position compelling? Give us a percentage. And he's like 2%.

Guest 5 [00:46:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:52] Not super interested.

Guest 5 [00:46:54] Yeah. He's blunt, but he's being honest. Yeah, yeah. And if anything, it helps train missionaries better. I hope missionaries will watch this and they'll come up with some sharper answers when they run into people who have been watching Anthony Magnavasco videos that they will predict what's going to happen next.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] I mean, it's kind of brilliant because they're like, well, why. Why aren't you more interested? And he's like, well, unless you give. Anthony says, unless you give me a good reason to be more interested, we got to start there. You need to do a better job of coming up for a reason why I should read the book and test it out because if you can't start with a good compelling reason, maybe it's too much time to invest.

Guest 5 [00:47:33] Yeah. And I noticed on screen somebody asked what is Anthony's goal?

John Dehlin [00:47:36] Yeah, that's really important.

Guest 5 [00:47:38] Yeah. And we will get into that ad nauseam. We will definitely get into that in the further interviews this week. So hold tight. This is kind of just to introduce the concepts of street epistemology. And maybe we didn't want to make this intro outro too long. We just kind of wanted to show clips. Unless John says otherwise.

John Dehlin [00:47:53] No, but it's important. The goal is not to tear people's faith down per se. It's not to argue, it's not to win someone over. It's. Yeah, I think it's important because I think as sometimes his progressive or doubting or post Mormons, we want, we have some agenda for the people that we talk to. And usually we've talked about this with Margi and the gift of the Mormon faith crisis. Usually it's more about us. We want them to validate where we've gotten to or at least to not feel so alone. And Anthony's got a really good approach to the ethics of these conversations and, and how you need to do no harm.

Guest 5 [00:48:33] Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:34] And you need to sort of follow the pacing of the person you're talking to. We'll get more into that.

Guest 5 [00:48:39] Right. Because as a society we need to be able to live with each other and interact with each other. And as you'll see through the interviews throughout this week, as we get into the role play that we're going to do on part, just using these types of questioning techniques is helpful when you have to engage with people who have differing beliefs. So if our Mormon stories listeners can just, yeah, glean something from it that will help them in their day to day lives, then that's what our goal at least is.

John Dehlin [00:49:06] So lots of great comments. Heidi writes, I seriously need to learn this to engage in a better conversation with my insanely true believing Mormon brothers. Heidi, that's literally why we're doing yeah. This series. That's Anthony Magnabosco. Street Epistemology Week all week, five days in a row on Mormon Stories podcast. Today is just day one. All right, Carrie, you want to set up this next video and what it is and what they're going to see and what they should maybe watch out for.

Street Epistemology with a Mormon Couple on a Hiking Trail

Guest 5 [00:49:33] Yes. So this is Anthony at a hiking trail. He comes across an LDS couple, one named Jenny, another named Anthony. And like I said earlier, the clip that are that you'll find on his YouTube channel are going to be a little bit longer. So I edited it down a little bit. Sorry. To, to. To the Mormon Anthony in this video. I cut out what he had to say a little bit.

Guest 4 [00:49:55] He.

Guest 5 [00:49:55] What you want to avoid when talking with somebody in interlock order is to kind of avoid them giving you their doctrine and why they find their religion so amazing, why they find their beliefs so. So captivating and so meaningful and more dig to just the foundational reasons that they believe it. And so you'll see that his. His partner, I don't know if it's his girlfriend or his wife Jenny is she kind of gets what Anthony Magnabosco is going for. So I cut out the other guy a little bit more. So it's just kind of a clip of them discussing and investigating their beliefs with them with Anthony a little bit more. So it's another really great conversation that's really popular on this channel with a Mormon couple. With a Mormon couple. I think you'll enjoy it.

John Dehlin [00:50:33] And someone just asked if there's a way to donate. I don't know if they meant a Mormon stories or street epistemology, but you can absolutely go to street epistemology dot.

Guest 5 [00:50:41] There should be links in the link tree right below the YouTube video.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] We do want to support Anthony fundraising and we'll talk more about that in the coming episodes.

Guest 5 [00:50:49] Yeah, we're definitely going to help him launch some more fundraising things if he'll let us.

John Dehlin [00:50:54] All right, so without any further ado, here is our second clip of a Mormon couple. This time meeting Anthony and. And seeing Anthony do street epistemology with the couple.

Guest 5 [00:51:04] Yeah, it's going to be good.

John Dehlin [00:51:05] Hope you guys enjoyed everybody keep the comments coming in the live stream and thanks again for joining us. Anthony,

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:51:18] Good morning.

Video Clip 2 [00:51:20] How was your walk?

Video Clip 2 [00:51:21] Oh, it's wonderful.

Video Clip 2 [00:51:22] Can I offer you some ice water?

Video Clip 2 [00:51:24] No, no,

Video Clip 2 [00:51:27] no problem. No problem. Would either of you be interested in doing an interview? Five minutes. I'm not with the park at all. I have a hobby where I'm practicing something called street epistemology, which is this. I know it's a complicated, like, weird sounding thing. It's a conversational tool that challenges people's deeply held beliefs in a respectful way. So we pick a belief that people think is true. So like all last week I was here and hear that bird. I think it's a cardinal. So a lot of people think that when you see a cardinal, it's a deceased relative coming back to say hello. Have you ever heard that? I didn't either until I came here. But anyways, we pick a belief that somebody really thinks is true, whether it's karma or they believe in a God, or they think a cardinal is a deceased relative coming back to them. And I set a timer for five minutes just to not take much of your time. And I ask questions to probe the reliability of the method you use to conclude that your beliefs are true. It's really interesting.

Video Clip 2 [00:52:33] Yeah.

Video Clip 2 [00:52:34] It's honestly a little challenging with two. But I've had conversations where I've interviewed two people once. If you share the same belief.

Video Clip 2 [00:52:41] Oh, yeah.

Video Clip 2 [00:52:43] Do you want to do a short little fiverr?

Video Clip 2 [00:52:45] Sure. We got five minutes.

Video Clip 2 [00:52:46] Can we go in the shade? Would you mind?

Video Clip 2 [00:52:47] Okay.

Video Clip 2 [00:52:48] I'm Anthony, by the way.

Video Clip 2 [00:52:49] Anthony. Oh, he's Anthony. I'm Jenny.

Video Clip 2 [00:52:51] Hi, Anthony and Jenny. That's all right. Do you guys want to.

Video Clip 2 [00:52:56] Want the water?

Video Clip 2 [00:52:56] No, really, we're fine.

Video Clip 2 [00:52:58] Okay.

Video Clip 2 [00:52:58] So is this, like, for your schooling or. No, like a personal.

Video Clip 2 [00:53:02] There's this thing called street epistemology where people are going out and having talks. I've been doing this for like five years now, and it's. It's sort of like a. Like I talked about. It's like a method for probing people's beliefs to see if.

Video Clip 2 [00:53:16] Is it just like a hobby?

Video Clip 2 [00:53:17] It's my personal hobby. It's a personal hobby, but I've been doing it so much that. And I've been. I've been recording my talks with your permission, and people have been watching them and going out and doing it as well. And that's. Not that I started it or anything. I'm just trying to help promote it by recording.

Video Clip 2 [00:53:33] That's a good thing. Yeah, that's a good thing. I think that's. You're trying to maybe reach a understanding of maybe purpose of life.

Video Clip 2 [00:53:42] I think for me. For me, honestly, it's more about a pursuit for truth.

Video Clip 2 [00:53:47] Truth. Okay.

Video Clip 2 [00:53:48] Because if I meet, if that's true, that that bird is my dad who passed away two years ago, then I want to know about that.

Video Clip 2 [00:53:57] Yeah.

Video Clip 2 [00:53:58] However, I also like to challenge people a little bit through questioning to see how they could be so sure that that is my dad who's telling me hello or something like that. I appreciate you stopping.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:10] Yeah, no problem.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:11] I understand it's a little unusual to. To be asked about, like a deep, beloved belief.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:17] No, not for us. We like to share our beliefs. We're Latter Day Saints.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:22] Interesting. Oh, excellent. I'm so glad to run into you.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:25] Yeah.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:25] So we are otherwise known as the Mormons.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:28] Yep.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:29] All right. So You've heard then that's good. A lot of people haven't heard of the. The religion.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:34] Oh, yeah.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:34] We like to. To spread the gospel as much to those who we. We compare it as like sharing a piece of cake. It's like, hey, we have some cake here if you're interested. Would you like some cake? I'll tell you why we, like, enjoy the cake. This is why we like it.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:50] Perfect.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:50] We'd like you to try it if you don't want to try it. All right, well, at least you know about. There's cake here for you. Yeah, so that's like kind of a little summary real quick.

Video Clip 2 [00:54:58] No, I am totally with you on that. Like, I think if what you're believing in is true, back to the whole cardinal thing. If that's true, I'm gonna rotate this just a little bit. If that belief is true, then I definitely want to learn it. So. And in fact, if I discovered that it was true, I would probably be just as open about sharing it with other people as it sounds like you guys are.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:21] Oh, yeah.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:23] Okay. So what I'm interested in, however, is if there really is cake.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:30] Okay.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:31] If this thing is really true.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:33] Okay. Okay.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:34] So I'd like to kind of get a sense of. Of how you determined that it's that what you're believing in, that Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and this God is real.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:46] Oh, nice.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:46] Okay, can we. Can we explore that a little bit?

Video Clip 2 [00:55:49] Yeah.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:49] And here's my caveat. Try to not let the other person's answer influence you, if that's possible.

Video Clip 2 [00:55:57] Like his answer influence, like what I say.

Video Clip 2 [00:56:00] Right.

Video Clip 2 [00:56:00] Okay, so you want. Should I give my account first?

Video Clip 2 [00:56:04] Yeah, yeah, sure. And then I'll give.

Video Clip 2 [00:56:05] Yeah, like I'll say my not account.

Video Clip 2 [00:56:07] But maybe the main justification why you actually think that this God is real.

Video Clip 2 [00:56:13] Okay. I guess for me, I would like to say that I know that it's real based on the fruits of my exercising the beliefs. Because I see that promises that are given, if you do certain things, that they are fulfilled because good things come from me acting on my belief.

Video Clip 2 [00:56:38] Gotcha. Okay. Okay, that's beautiful. And I'm going to repeat it back just to make sure I understand it. The main justification that you have that your God exists is that when you act upon the beliefs that you have

Video Clip 2 [00:56:51] or like teachings that I receive.

Video Clip 2 [00:56:53] Okay. You see the benefit, you see good things as a result of that. The fruits, I think, is what you're referring to. Okay.

Video Clip 2 [00:57:02] Or the fulfillment of promises that are given, if you do act on those things.

Video Clip 2 [00:57:07] Okay, so you might read something in scripture and then you. You just go about your daily life and you have the belief and then you see things that validate the scripture.

Video Clip 2 [00:57:18] I suppose so. I suppose you could say that.

Video Clip 2 [00:57:20] Please don't let me put words in your mouth if that's not what you're saying.

Video Clip 2 [00:57:22] No, no, no, I would. I mean, I suppose, I guess more like if I read like a commandment and a promise that is tied to that commandment and I live out what I said, you should do that. I feel that promise is fulfilled.

Video Clip 2 [00:57:36] Okay, gotcha.

Video Clip 2 [00:57:37] That makes sense. Like they say, you know, like, if you pay tithing, then you will have financial blessings. And so.

Video Clip 2 [00:57:46] Okay, and then you've actually tithed and then you're seeing financial blessings, and then that complete circle is validation that you're believing in something that's true.

Video Clip 2 [00:57:55] Yeah, I think so.

Video Clip 2 [00:57:57] Okay.

Video Clip 2 [00:57:58] Okay. So as for me, in my words, so I grew up without religion. I grew up with a basis of my religion was a small Catholic belief, so that I believed that there was a God. I believe that there was a son, Jesus Christ. So I grew up with those beliefs. And the reason I grew up with them because my parent raised us that way.

Guest 4 [00:58:21] Way.

Guest [00:58:21] So that's what I knew. So at the age of 22, I. Well, let me go backwards about teen years, maybe 12, 13, I kind of. I want to say kind of because I would still participate in church services, as in twice a year I'd go maybe for Easter and Christmas. But then other than that, I really didn't practice any religion. In my back of my mind, I was always knew, I felt that there was a God. So I was always on the edge of maybe there isn't. Maybe there is. And I was looking for physical proof in my late teen years to my early 20s, and then about my 20 years, I think I was. I want to say think because at the time was I never physically asked for it, but I was open to suggestions, I was open to conversation about religion. I talked to a Latter Day Saint person, a missionary, and they asked me to do something for them and they asked me to read the Book of Mormon. I'm just kind of summarizing this up, please. And so with those conversations about reading the Book of Mormon, I learned that religion cannot be proven. If it is proven, then religion itself is thrown in the garbage because religion is based on faith and not knowing that something really is true. It's based on the fact of believing, hoping, and seeing the results.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:59:59] Now with that, yeah, I find that these beliefs can be very complex and the doctrine gets very deep. And my focus is more on how we can be so sure that it's true. And I think you said that you grew up with a belief in a God. You always felt something that it was true and you wanted physical proof. But I think at some point, you, correct me if this isn't what you're saying, but at some point you realized that physical proof is not at our at your disposal. That you need something else.

Guest 4 [01:00:37] No, physical proof is not necessary.

Guest [01:00:40] Physical proof is not necessary in order for the belief to occur. In order to have faith.

Guest 4 [01:00:49] I guess I would say maybe you said not to do this, but I

Anthony Magnabosco [01:00:53] think this could be completely free flowing.

Guest 4 [01:00:56] Yeah. Like is that physical proof isn't necessary for things to be true. That you can have a knowledge of truth without physical proof that it is there.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:06] Okay. So this would be a great opportunity to introduce a confidence scale from 0 to 100. I want to get a sense of how sure you are that this belief is true. That's the first part. And then there's a second part that will hinge off of this, this idea of proof.

Guest 4 [01:01:20] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:21] Okay. So on a scale from. From 0 to 100, I'd like to get a sense of how sure each of you are that your God is real.

Guest [01:01:28] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:28] 100% is. There's no question in my mind. I have no doubt. I know that it's true. 0% is all I have is questions. I don't know that this thing is true at all.

Guest 4 [01:01:39] I'd say for me it's 100%. I have no doubt.

Guest [01:01:41] I'm at more of a 101. A 101. I was gonna say especially so. Yeah. The. And then especially just the past few weeks, it's even so.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:56] Could I ask the second part of that little question? Because I just don't want to lose my train of thought and then we can definitely go back to that. Okay. I think you said that you don't need proof to be certain that your God is real. So my question is, how should I phrase this? If assuming that you do have proof, if you didn't have that proof, I hate to use the word proof, I kind of like to say evidence. It's a little softer. But let's say that you didn't have evidence for this God, where would it move you from the 100? What would be a corrective adjustment?

Guest [01:02:37] I would be a zero. Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:02:39] If you didn't have the evidence that you think that you have now. Is that right?

Guest [01:02:42] I'D be a zero. And my. Well, I'll let her answer. Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:02:47] Yeah, this is great. Yeah, go ahead.

Guest 4 [01:02:50] I guess I don't. I don't really know. I don't. Because I guess for me, honestly, I don't know that I've looked for evidence.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:02:58] You have this belief that's not based on evidence?

Guest 4 [01:03:03] Well, I guess. I don't know. That's a really.

Guest [01:03:05] Here's the thing.

Guest 4 [01:03:06] Is it gonna take me.

Guest [01:03:07] My thing is the evidence.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:03:09] She's like, hold on, hon.

Guest 4 [01:03:11] I'm really trying to think.

Guest [01:03:12] I know, but are you looking for physical evidence or.

Guest 4 [01:03:14] No? Whatever evidence we gave. Right. Like I said, do you want to

Anthony Magnabosco [01:03:17] move in the shade just a tad because you're in the sun? I don't want you to.

Guest 4 [01:03:21] Like, my evidence was, like, the fruits of.

Guest [01:03:24] Oh, I see.

Guest 4 [01:03:25] Yeah. Like, we sort of went over what our evidence was. And I'm saying, like, so without that would I believe. And I. I guess I. I would think that. I do. I think I would still be able to say 100. Because I truly feel as though, like, it has been ingrained within. Within me that I do have a testimony that it is true.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:03:44] Okay.

Guest 4 [01:03:45] Like, I. I truly don't think that that could be removed.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:03:49] Okay.

Guest 4 [01:03:49] If things. If circumstances change.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:03:51] All right, I want to repeat back what I think you've just said, and then we can. We can go over to Anthony here. 100% confident that your God exists. Any evidence that you think that you may have. I don't even think that you're going as far as to say that you even think that you have evidence just yet.

Guest 4 [01:04:05] No, but I mean. Yeah, I mean, I think, like, I've said why I believe that.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:04:09] Yeah. I think what you're saying is that even if I discovered that I have no evidence for this belief, I'm still going to be 100% confident that it's true.

Guest 4 [01:04:18] Yes. Which does sound odd, I think, to, like, the humanistic side. But I just think the spiritual side of me just knows, and I can't remove that. Like, that's sort of, like my inner soul.

Guest [01:04:31] And that's what I was gonna say. That's why I was waiting for you to answer. So physical evidence, I don't mean anything. Like, here's a. You know, this is just a reference. Here's the proof right here. It's signed.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:04:43] It's.

Guest [01:04:44] You know, this is the evidence. No, what it was told in the beginning when I spoke with that missionary was. It was like, you read this book, you pray about it, and you'll get a feeling that you'll know for yourself. Feeling like something that is like a for sure feeling like you probably got when you were growing up and something just told you. And when he used the word something, he didn't specify whether it was the Holy Ghost or some kind of a spirit or some kind of uncle or aunt or an angel or anything like that.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:05:21] It was.

Guest [01:05:22] It was told to me. A feeling that you know, that it is right. And that is what I go on. So if you call that proof, well, then that's my proof. But there's nothing actual physical.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:05:36] Okay.

Guest [01:05:37] That, that actually that's going to show. Show you that what's going on is right.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:05:42] So in the interest of wanting to fully understand what you've just said, I'm going to repeat it back.

Guest [01:05:47] Oh, yeah, definitely.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:05:48] And again, correct me if this isn't what you're saying, that you ran into somebody who basically told you that the way that you can know for sure that the Book of Mormon is true and the scriptures are true and that all the stuff happened and that this God that's real is that when you commit to it, you will get a feeling that it's true. And then the feeling that you got and maybe that you still get today is what you would point to as evidence to be 100% certain.

Guest [01:06:24] Yes. And it's the fee. Yeah, the feeling. Yep. The same feeling I got when I was younger and throughout my life up until that point.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:06:35] Okay, okay.

Guest [01:06:36] So almost like a conscience. Conscience feeling. But I don't even know if I'm saying that right.

Guest 4 [01:06:42] You just like recognize that it was the same feeling you'd had when you were young in the.

Guest [01:06:46] As I went through the church, many. What I know today is they say it's the influence of the Holy Ghost is what we believe in. But before I joined the church, it was. There wasn't a name for it. Maybe, maybe I could have said conscience or maybe I could have.

Feelings, Conscience, and Belief in God

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:04] How big of a component is feeling for just knowing that your God is real for you?

Guest 4 [01:07:10] How big of a component is feeling?

Guest [01:07:12] That's 100% for me. I want that first.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:14] Yeah, yeah.

Guest 4 [01:07:15] For me I feel like. I don't know. I feel like I'm not doing a very good job answering this. I guess I think it used to be like a feeling and for me now it's just a knowledge. So I don't. And that's what I'm saying. I don't know that I relate the feelings that I have with it.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:35] You felt for so long that it's true that now you actually say that, you know, that it's.

Guest 4 [01:07:40] I guess what I mean is I used to find, like those moments of feeling and like connecting were sort of my evidence and sort of where my testimony lie.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:49] Okay.

Guest 4 [01:07:50] And then I sort of transcended that and I feel like I've had enough of that. That I know, like, there's no way that I could deny that it's true.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:57] Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Okay. I meet a lot of people on the trail who believe completely different things are true. Like the cardinal. That's still going on. Right. And I meet a lot of people who believe that other gods are real because they have a feeling that it's true. And I'm wondering, like in your situation, Anthony, if this individual happened to be an imam and actually thought that Allah was true and that the Quran was the right book. And he said if you just read this book and you start pondering on it, that you'll get a feeling and that that feeling is Allah. That feeling is justification to believe that Muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse. And that feeling reminded you of a feeling when you were a young kid. Is it conceivable that somebody could have a feeling and it guide them to the incorrect conclusion?

Guest [01:09:02] Yes. Yeah. And now, however. However, the thing is, and we were kind of discussing that on the trail, the thing is in. And here's what makes the Mormon. This is what kind of drew me to the Mormon religion too, is because one of the articles of faith in the Mormon religion, so basically the articles of faith are a summary of what the whole beliefs of the church are about. So one of them is let any man, woman believe who, what, when and where and how they want to worship. I mean, I didn't say it word for word. If it's leading towards a good purpose, if it's not breaking any laws, then that's a good thing for that individual.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:09:45] I'm on board with this idea of people having the right to believe whatever they want, but my question is, are you able to repeat back what you think my question is?

Guest 4 [01:09:54] Yeah, I think your question was if someone asks me to like, read the Quran or all these people who have, you know, people who have other beliefs, if they've read something and they have that same good feeling that like we've experienced, can it lead them to have a belief in something different or that

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:11] not only different, but something that's not wrong? That's not true.

Guest 4 [01:10:14] That's not true. And I guess I would say this. I don't Believe that. I think that they could experience that feeling and have a touch. Testimony in something that has a portion of truth. It may not have all of the truth, but that there may be a part of that that is a light and a truth. So I guess I don't know that, but, yeah, I guess.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:34] Let me ask you this. Yes or no? Yes or no. Is it conceivable that a person can rely on feelings and come to the incorrect conclusion?

Guest 4 [01:10:42] Yes, I would say. Yeah.

Guest [01:10:44] Just like you see.

Guest 4 [01:10:45] I would think so. Okay, interesting, because I think everybody. I'll talk. I think that everybody has, like, a gap or a hole, and everybody's sort of searching for something. And for some people, I think that they can connect with something that could be dark or twisted, and they will fall into that, because for them, it's kind of filling that hole because of whatever's happened in their past, and they

Anthony Magnabosco [01:11:09] feel that it's the right way to go.

Guest 4 [01:11:11] Well, right. And I think they think it's right because they. It's kind of filling in whatever.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:11:16] Okay.

Guest 4 [01:11:17] Too. Like gangs. Right. Like young kids, like. Like they're getting involved in bad things, but there are good feelings that they are getting from it because it's fulfilling something that was missing from their life.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:11:28] Okay. Yes. Yes. So, yeah, I want to circle back. I think so. I want to circle back to this idea of using feelings to conclude that something is true. So, yeah, there might be a tribe in Africa, and they take the chicken bones, and when they're falling down the stairs, they land. And then they make decisions on what to do for that day based on the arrangement of the bones. Then you have the Muslim terrorists, like, they hijack planes and crash them into buildings because they felt that their belief was true.

Guest [01:11:59] Yeah. But again, that was a certain little

Guest 4 [01:12:02] group of Muslims because they don't think that that's.

John Dehlin [01:12:05] The whole religion believed.

Guest [01:12:08] It's like some of the Mormons decided to let me come over here and do plural marriages, which that doesn't take place in the actual.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:12:15] So my question to you is, if we recognize that feelings can lead people to incorrect conclusions and your beliefs are largely based on feelings, how can either of you be 100% sure that it's true?

Guest [01:12:30] Because. Because of the knowledge of falling within the parameters if you're doing what you're supposed to be doing in your religion. So, okay, for instance, Muslims, if they are doing what they're supposed to be doing, if they are following and abiding by every law that they believe in. Well, in the Mormon religion, at the Very end. When you die, you are going to be judged. So this is what we believe. We believe Jesus Christ is going to judge you on your actions. So let's say a Muslim grew up or whoever you, you whatever religion you want that is a peaceful religion that obeys the laws of the land that does everything well when they die, they're going to be judged by Jesus Christ. They're going to be judged on.

Guest 4 [01:13:18] How do you know that? That's what he's saying.

Guest [01:13:20] I'm going to go into that.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:13:21] Excellent question, Jenny. That's okay. That's what I'm getting at is I know that that's what you believe.

Guest 4 [01:13:27] Right. So like how do you know that?

Guest [01:13:30] I'm gonna flip it around. Yeah, that wasn't done. Sorry, cut me off.

Guest 4 [01:13:34] So.

Guest [01:13:35] But anyways, so when all it's said and done, you're being judged. And when you're judged on based on whatever your actions were and the end you are going to be a accounted accountable for every. Every single thing that was thought of. And was that so going back around was that you know it's true because you know that the feelings inside you are correct.

Guest 4 [01:14:08] Oh like if they lead you to correct things.

Guest [01:14:10] Yeah, because insight. See. So we believe so.

Guest 4 [01:14:13] Okay, I see what you're.

Guest [01:14:14] We are born with almost like wouldn't

Anthony Magnabosco [01:14:16] a Muslim tell me the same thing?

Guest 4 [01:14:17] Right. What's that you're saying? Like so how do we know?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:14:20] No, let me hear it. Wouldn't a Muslim tell me the exact same thing?

Guest [01:14:23] Yes, that's what I'm saying. So at the end, if they feel their religion is right, we feel our religion is right and we're living in peace and harmony. Well, in the end we don't know what's going to happen. We don't know because that's not allowed. Again, going backwards, we're not allowed to know what's going to happen.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:14:44] How could you be 100% sure if you don't know based on feelings?

Guest [01:14:48] You have to feel these things because

Anthony Magnabosco [01:14:50] that's the whole test.

Guest [01:14:51] That's the whole test on earth.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:14:53] Sure.

Guest 4 [01:14:53] What was your original question?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:14:54] The fundamental question here I think is both of you, it seems largely believe that your God is real because the feelings that you get for holding the beliefs and we recognize that other people can conclude that completely different things are true because they have a feeling. I'm trying to think now if one of the ladies I talked to last week thought that she thought that these birds were talking to her because she had a feeling she may have it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for someone to say, that's definitely your dad talking to you, because you'll just feel it that it's true. The question here, I think, is if we recognize that feelings don't always lead us to the truth, how can you be so sure that the feelings that you're having to 100% certainty is leading you to the truth?

Guest 4 [01:15:46] I guess I would say for me it's not. I can't. It's not something that I could give to you, and it's not something I can give to you. It's just. It is, for me, it's not just a feeling. It is truly a knowledge. And I don't know how. And that's why I think you're encouraged to develop that knowledge for yourself.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:16:06] Would you advise somebody to use feelings to conclude that something is true when you recognize that it might lead me to the incorrect conclusion?

Guest 4 [01:16:14] I would only advise somebody to do that. I would only advise somebody to do that. If it was something that I had experimented on and knew that there were good fruits from doing that, does that sense make sense?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:16:24] Yet the Muslim would tell me the exact same thing about this fruits.

Guest 4 [01:16:28] And I would agree that there are positive fruits from their religion. But I don't think we could speak for the world. But I can only speak for myself. And so I would only ever encourage someone to try trial something or to try to develop a knowledge of their own in the way that I have experienced is something that I feel is good. And so I guess I would say, and looking at people who, like Muslim extremists, who are terrorists, maybe for them they are truly trying to spread something that they believe. And I guess I wouldn't, I don't know, I can't speak to that.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:17:06] I thought of another question I'd like to ask you related to the belief scale. I asked you, if you, if you didn't have evidence, where would you be? And you said, well, zero. And feeling is your evidence. And I think you said, even if I really discovered I didn't have evidence, I'd still be. I'd still know it. So my question is, since it seems like this is largely based on the feeling that you get that it's true, let me ask you this. If you discovered through the course of this conversation or afterwards, when hopefully you're talking about this, if you were to discover that feelings are not a reliable way to come to know that something is true, what influence would that have on your confidence that this God is real, that 100% that you have now,

Guest 4 [01:17:50] I don't think I would be affected. That may be a naive assumption, but I don't.

Guest [01:17:54] I don't understand.

Guest 4 [01:17:55] Because for me, it's not. For me, again, I think it is beyond feeling.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:17:58] Well, let me clarify for Anthony here. If you couldn't use feelings to conclude with 100% certainty that your God is real, if for some reason someone said, I dictate from on high or something like in your scripture, you discovered that feelings are an unreliable way to come to the truth, and you had to pull that out of your arsenal that you're using to get to the hundred, what influence would that have?

Guest [01:18:26] Well, if we were told like in our. If the scripture we're reading right now said, don't go on your feelings, go on the world. Is that what you're saying?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:18:37] It's a bad example because I'm sort of using your holy book to help you lower your confidence.

Guest [01:18:44] Well, just to make it sense. So if one of our church leaders, if our president of the church or if our scripture said, don't go on your feelings anymore, go like this, I would listen to his counsel. At the point where I'm at now prior to joining the church, I wouldn't listen. I would think he was some normal, regular guy.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:19:05] I asked you a horrible question because I basically used your own holy book to ask if that would lower your confidence. So can I rephrase this question? If at the end of this talk you discovered that faith is unreliable? I think I even asked this. Not faith. Sorry. If you discovered at the end of day the. This talk your shirt just was reminding me of that if you discovered at the end of this talk and through subsequent discussions with people, maybe even yourselves, and you discovered that feelings were unreliable, yet they comprise such a large part of why you're sure, Would that in turn have a corresponding influence on your certainty? Would you be adjusting down to the 50 if you really realized that feelings were unreliable, if you had to remove

Guest 4 [01:19:51] feelings, what would you. What would your evidence be? In a sense, like where, again, it

Guest [01:19:56] would be religion, there would be no evidence. So you couldn't. I mean, without feelings, then you have nothing.

Guest 4 [01:20:01] I don't know, though. I think I feel differently.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:04] It sounds like what you're saying is that even if you discover that feelings were unreliable, you would still hold the belief.

Guest 4 [01:20:11] I would. And I think only because I still see the evidence of putting into practice in my life the teachings and the benefits and the good fruits and the things that it can do for the.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:25] Are you seeing the fruits the evidence.

Guest 4 [01:20:27] And it's that that goes beyond feeling. That to me is almost like a physical proof. Not that I think that that's necessary, but I think I've seen enough of that in my life.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:37] Yes.

Guest 4 [01:20:37] That I still have the feelings, but I don't know that they are.

Guest [01:20:41] I just want to say this. Without feelings, then it would go into survival of the fittest mode. It would be in the animal. You'd be in the primitive animal world where you would live this life.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [01:20:51] You mean like if we didn't have feelings?

Video Clip 3 [01:20:53] Well, if you didn't use feelings based for your guide guidance. Because we're using our feelings to guide us.

Video Clip 3 [01:20:59] Yeah.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:00] Again, do feelings always lead us to reliable conclusions?

Video Clip 3 [01:21:03] No.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:04] Well, obviously not, because that's why being tried. Right.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:08] Now, can I follow up on something that you said about the fruits, if you don't mind? My question to you about the fruit. It sounds like what you're saying is that if you discover that you don't have evidence and you discover that feelings are unreliable, you'd still be. You'd still have a very high degree of confidence that the God is real. Because you see fruits of having the belief. You see things that are happening in your life that correspond with what you've read in the. The scripture, and then that's the validation to you that this belief is true.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:37] It does help to validate. Yeah.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:38] Okay. So my question is, if you weren't exposed to these beliefs in the first place, and if you hadn't already used feelings to be sure that the belief is true and that you just know that it's true, would you be looking for at these positive things that are happening in your life as fruits of your belief or as normal everyday occurrences that just tend to happen to people in 2017 who are living in the United States?

Video Clip 3 [01:22:10] I think I probably would view it that way. Like, they're just sort of normal everyday things, I guess. I don't know. I've always. I've always had that, like, faith as an origin. So that's probably hard for me to understand or to answer truthfully because I've never come from a different place. But I would imagine that, like, had, without the teachings that I have, like to back up my direction, that I would just think, yeah, that's just, you know, good things happen to good people or, you know what I mean? Just sort of think it's just an energy of the world or something like that.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:40] So being told, correct me if this isn't. It is being told that the belief is true very early on, skewing your ability to objectively look at the belief.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:54] Okay, that's a good question. That is a great question. But I would say, I would say maybe for some people, I would think, not for myself only because I was never told. I wasn't told that it has to be true. I was told to figure it out for myself.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:11] I definitely have, I think I have a better understanding of what you believe. Believe and why and how you think you're. How you are arriving at your 100 confidence. So, yeah, we can definitely wrap it up. I got a card. And if you guys want to meet again, that's fine. Or you can email me. Sometimes people message me six months later to say I was thinking about it and I was really thinking about feelings and wondering if that's a reliable way. And if I wasn't raised with a disbelief, would I, would I be looking at things differently? And sometimes people ponder on these things.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:47] Yeah. Well, good luck with your research. It's really fascinating. It's really interesting.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:51] Thank you.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:52] I wish I had that much time in my life to do that.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:54] My kids are at school where I'm a stay at home dad, so they're at school today.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:58] That's really cool. Well, your kids will probably grow up to be very big thinkers, I'm sure.

Video Clip 3 [01:24:03] Maybe.

Video Clip 3 [01:24:03] So you must have like a degree in philosophy or something.

Video Clip 3 [01:24:07] No, I don't have a degree in philosophy. If I was going to go back and get a, get a degree, I think it'd probably be psychology because I'm really interested in how people are forming these beliefs and that's awesome.

Video Clip 3 [01:24:17] So do you have any beliefs of your own? Like what is your.

Video Clip 3 [01:24:20] Do you want me to get into this?

Video Clip 3 [01:24:22] Yeah.

Video Clip 3 [01:24:22] Okay. Because I think your wife wanted to

Video Clip 3 [01:24:24] go like maybe and then I'll email. In a nutshell, I'm curious because.

Video Clip 3 [01:24:27] Okay.

Video Clip 3 [01:24:28] This is kind of what we. Oh, sorry. I like conversation like this.

Video Clip 3 [01:24:33] I love it too. So in a nutshell, on that same scale from 0 to 100, I'm right now at about a 2.

Video Clip 3 [01:24:40] Okay.

Video Clip 3 [01:24:42] However, when I have conversations with people, I'm reluctant to admit that because it tends to put people on the defensive

Video Clip 3 [01:24:50] or

Video Clip 3 [01:24:53] they might want to start preaching. And then I don't get into why you think it's true and how you concluded it.

Video Clip 3 [01:24:57] You're not wanting to learn the theology, you're just kind of wanting to learn the epistemology.

Video Clip 3 [01:25:02] I'm interested. Epistemology is the study, how people come to know things. I haven't met a lot of Mormons I've been looking forward to meeting Mormons. I'm so excited to run into you both and that was really cool. However, it is common for me to hear that people are believing in completely different gods because of those same reasons. They were raised it, they were told it, they study it and they see the fruits of their belief, that they get a feeling, they feel in their bosom that it's Allah, that it's Vishnu, and they actually, they say that they're 100% sure that these things are true. Can I ask you one more question? And you can just think about it, you know, you have to answer it. Go get your food. If you had at your disposal evidence that's different than personal experiences from other people and feelings and then seeing the fruits of, I guess another that's sort of personal experience. Now I think about it. So if you had evidence that was not personal experience and it wasn't feelings, would you prefer to have that evidence over those others?

Video Clip 3 [01:26:16] I think for myself, no.

Video Clip 3 [01:26:18] No, I wouldn't. Because I wouldn't have believed it.

Video Clip 3 [01:26:21] No, I. I guess, yeah. I just think.

Video Clip 3 [01:26:24] Oh, because I grew up with. I grew up in a novel, it's

Video Clip 3 [01:26:27] necessary, like, I just think that there's a necessary element of faith.

Video Clip 3 [01:26:32] Yeah, I don't know.

Video Clip 3 [01:26:34] I would need feelings, definitely.

Video Clip 3 [01:26:36] Is it more virtuous to have your belief based on feelings and not evidence?

Video Clip 3 [01:26:42] No, I don't think so. But I guess, I guess I would say this. Like, I think that there is. I believe that there is an eternal being like within me. And without that faith and knowing that way, I think I wouldn't have such a deep rooted knowledge. I think seeing something is not as eternal or long lasting. Does that make sense?

Video Clip 3 [01:27:08] Your preference would be feelings over evidence?

Video Clip 3 [01:27:13] Yeah, that's my per. That's my.

Video Clip 3 [01:27:14] I think so, 100%. I think feelings is a little bit tricky for me, but I guess having a spiritual confirmation because for me that. Yeah, it is.

Video Clip 3 [01:27:25] Is that what faith is? I see you mentioned faith a couple times.

Video Clip 3 [01:27:28] Yeah. And I guess I think that that is what feeling faith is. It's.

Video Clip 3 [01:27:33] It's believing there. Like I believe 100 that there is a guy standing right behind that tree right now. Even though you can't see anything there.

Video Clip 3 [01:27:44] No, I know that that's.

Video Clip 3 [01:27:45] I feel that.

Video Clip 3 [01:27:46] But I guess I'm saying that's why

Video Clip 3 [01:27:48] I'm trying to explain why that would just be. That's an example.

Video Clip 3 [01:27:51] I'm just explaining that that's why I prefer that. Because for me that is an of eternal Laugh. Whereas experiences in this life are temporary.

Faith, Evidence, and Reliability of Personal Feelings

Video Clip 3 [01:28:00] Okay, deep question here. I know these have been really deep. Are you content with going off of faith and feelings because you could never discover that the belief was not true?

Video Clip 3 [01:28:12] Oh, okay. No, no. I guess I don't really know how else to say it, but. No, I mean, I, I feel like I could be handed physical evidence that something that I've learned within the Book of Mormon or something is not true, and I would still have the knowledge that I do, which that does almost sound naive and ignorant to it to a human.

Video Clip 3 [01:28:39] Does this help answer that question too?

Video Clip 3 [01:28:41] So if they gave me the Book

Video Clip 3 [01:28:42] of Mormon when I was 20 years old, before I prayed or did anything, I would get the Book of Mormon and use it as my fire, you know, to help fuel my fire. But based on feelings and knowing what's going on and praying and knowing if you read this or it was pray about it, read it and then pray again. Just ask to see if it's true. After knowing that and having a feeling, a confirmation of feeling, then I know, know for certain 100 that it is true.

Video Clip 3 [01:29:15] But would you rather have physical evidence?

Video Clip 3 [01:29:17] Well, that's the thing. Well, let me, let me. So anyways, now, just like I was gonna say, just like two weeks ago, there was almost like, it's almost physical evidence now that the Book of Mormon is true. Like there was a talk just a week ago that was talking about the Book of Mormons. Like, so in a, almost like in a, in a perspective of like, how, how can this be done? Like, how could this guy write this book in this amount of time without any revisions, without any kind of publisher, without this or that, without any kind of knowledge to write a 500 page book? And it goes a little in depth into like, all.

Video Clip 3 [01:29:56] Into like the semantics of how the Book of Mormon came to be.

Video Clip 3 [01:29:59] It's like, there's almost like it's more of like a physical.

Video Clip 3 [01:30:02] Do you prefer that?

Video Clip 3 [01:30:04] That's the question. What I'm saying is before I was, before I, I did all my feelings, like, if I, if you would have brought me that evidence at age 20, I wouldn't have, I would have laughed at that evidence. Interesting feelings have to come first.

Video Clip 3 [01:30:21] Oh, all right. So let me, let me summarize.

Video Clip 3 [01:30:24] Yeah.

Video Clip 3 [01:30:25] Because you have a deep feeling that it's true when you look at things. Because that you would chalk up to not being evidence. If you hadn't had the feeling, you're more likely to call it sufficient evidence because you have the feelings.

Video Clip 3 [01:30:39] Let me see.

Video Clip 3 [01:30:41] So I Can repeat it.

Video Clip 3 [01:30:42] Yeah, repeat it one more time.

Video Clip 3 [01:30:46] Back in the day, if you were to see something that they would call evidence, you would just be like, come on. That's not. However, today, because you have the feeling that it's true. When you see something that you would have looked at and scoffed at today, you're more likely to accept it because you have the feeling that it's true.

Video Clip 3 [01:31:06] Yes. Feeling, again, that tells you this is the path you need to go. You need to start.

Video Clip 3 [01:31:11] But, yeah, I guess, yeah, you have to be prepared.

Video Clip 3 [01:31:14] Okay, so like, I don't know, 20 minutes ago or something, we were talking about feelings. And that they are. They can be unreliable and lead people to the wrong conclusions. And yet you're using feelings to be sure that your belief is true. And when you look at something that you would have earlier scoffed and said that that's not evidence because you have feelings, which we've already said are probably unreliable, you are more prone to accept something because you already have this feeling that it's true.

Guest [01:31:43] Did you say feelings were unreal? Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:31:46] Did we not. Did we not conclude that.

Guest 4 [01:31:48] I know what you're saying.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:31:49] If we didn't. I thought, I thought we'd. Because we were talking about how people who believe that's chicken bones, they have a feeling that that's true.

Guest [01:31:58] People who believe it and the judgment.

Guest 4 [01:32:00] Well, but I think we were saying. I guess what I believe is that. That there's a portion of truth or light. But I guess feelings can be unreliable. But you're using the word feelings.

Guest [01:32:11] Oh, okay.

Guest 4 [01:32:11] Maybe. Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:32:12] Okay. Because.

Guest [01:32:12] So let me. Let me rephrase.

Guest 4 [01:32:14] Something that you can't describe. It isn't like it is.

Guest [01:32:17] If you were doing so. Now if you're doing something you're feeling is right, if you know it's right. If you feel it's right and it turns out to be a wrong sense. Now, here's the thing. When I say wrong, there is a level of wrong. You can. There's a wrong word. I know there's a wrong word. I accidentally ended up at Whataburger instead of going to McDonald's. And then there's a wrong where, hey, I murdered people. And, you know, I went this route and nobody got hurt. You know, there's a. There's a wrong way. I decided to drink and drive and I killed people. I decided to drink and drive and nobody died. So based on feelings, were there? Well, you got to have your feelings. You're going to be wrong with your feelings. Everyone's going to be Wrong. At a certain point, however, there's a point where your feelings are making you feel good and everything's right. So that's the path to take. So hence the reason, like, if it's

Guest 4 [01:33:14] leading you on a good path.

Guest [01:33:15] Yes.

Guest 4 [01:33:15] If you're feeling it's leading you on

Guest [01:33:17] a good path in the religion we're in.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:33:19] Well, here's. Here's the question I'd like to ask.

Guest 4 [01:33:21] Yeah, like.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:33:21] Well, here's my question. Are our feelings testable? Can we test the reliability of feelings?

Guest [01:33:30] No, I don't think you can.

Guest 4 [01:33:33] Do you think you can?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:33:35] Let me rephrase this. Can we test the reliability of feelings that bring us to conclude that things are true?

Guest [01:33:42] The only way to test them is to do them.

Guest 4 [01:33:44] Yeah, I mean, I think to act on them and see that good things come and. Like, what?

Guest [01:33:48] Yeah, that's the only way to do it because.

Hosts Reflect on the Mormon Couple Conversation

Guest 5 [01:33:54] So what are we thinking, guys? What have. What are your impressions of the one and only? Who are you asking, Anthony Magnavoz? I'm asking the monster's listeners.

John Dehlin [01:34:04] It's a theoretical question.

Guest 5 [01:34:05] Yeah. Those are our two clips that we wanted to show. So we are excited to read your comments later and we're excited for you to join us for the rest of this week of episodes. So I hope that was a good exercise and just kind of highlighting the technique that Anthony is known for.

John Dehlin [01:34:21] So did you have any reactions to that second video? I wrote down some notes. A lot of viewers and listeners have some comments as well. What were.

Guest 5 [01:34:28] Yeah, the first one, just off the bat, you need to understand, if you're listening to this through the podcast, that they're both wearing, like, BYU blue, and Jenny's got a big shirt that says faith that you probably got at, like, girls camp or youth conference from being, like, a leader. So she looks adorable. And Anthony, he looks a little bit more, like, kind of aggressive. Like, he's trying to talk a lot. And if the body language really comes across, if you're listening to this on audio, I would encourage you to go watch, maybe even go give a view over to Anthony's channel and go watch the longer full version. And you'll see Anthony Mormon. Anthony knees body language that he really just wants to jump in a lot. And so I have to give props to this couple that they just want to engage in a conversation about their faith and their beliefs. And I think there's more comments on the YouTube channel about their relationship dynamic and, like, patriarchy than. Than even what they're actually the subject that they're Discussing.

John Dehlin [01:35:18] Can I just say, like, one of my early episodes of Mormon Stories podcast, one of the first videos I ever did was a brooke and John McClay. And John McClay had just like weeks before left a position as like an institute director at like Colorado Springs University or whatever. Colorado State Air Force Academy. I don't know what it was, but, like, there were so many comments if he would, like, talk over Brooke or like touch her knee and start, you know, try to silence her and same vibes here. So many people are like, there's some patriarchy triggering.

Guest 5 [01:35:48] Yeah. There's like going on here. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:50] And I don't want to be mean or like, pile on either. Right.

Guest 5 [01:35:53] Because this couple just was walking down a trail and she's like, yeah, sure, I'll talk to you. And Anthony obviously, like, told them that he was going to put this on his YouTube channel. So they were really good sports, so please be on. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:04] But it is. It is a lesson.

Guest 5 [01:36:06] It's interesting.

John Dehlin [01:36:07] It's a. It's a visual lesson in Mormon patriarchy.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:36:09] A little bit.

Guest 5 [01:36:10] A visual lesson. Yeah. Body language wise. So I just want to put that out there. That's almost like the elephant in the room of just kind of like dynamic.

John Dehlin [01:36:17] You edited a little bit.

Guest 5 [01:36:18] I took a lot of what Mormon Anthony had to say out because he gets very. Because patriarchy. No, no, it's really just because it distracts from what Anthony Magnavasco is trying to do. And I think the SC community will be very grateful for me for like condensing that. That interview and go, go to go

John Dehlin [01:36:38] to the street epistemology or Anthony Magnabosco YouTube channel and watch the unedited version because we want to give them all the views and the clicks as possible.

Guest 5 [01:36:46] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:36:46] You can return. We'll. We'll put a link up to that.

Guest 5 [01:36:49] Yeah, yeah. So make sure you check out the links that will be in the show notes below. And so if you notice the things that pop off, like the top of my head is just kind of the circular logic that if you noticed how truthful Jenny kind of came across where she's like, okay, yeah, I do already have this belief. And then when I'm acting on it, I am looking for confirming evidence that it's already true and that I. And then when Anthony asks questions like, would you recommend this method for another person to determine truth? And her answer is, well, if I already acted on the fruit. So there's like a circular reasoning there where she already believes that it's true and she's only looking for it's confirmatory. That's a word, right?

Guest [01:37:33] Sure.

Guest 5 [01:37:33] Confirmatory evidence, I guess I could say. So that's kind of what comes across if, you know, going over and over again, going back in these, these kind of circles. And so if you can get somebody like Anthony to kind of like ask good hard hitting questions maybe for the first time in a Mormon's life, that kind of gets them out of this circular logic cycle and says, wait, wait, wait, are you sure? So what did you think about what? Did you think about that?

John Dehlin [01:37:57] Yeah, yeah, that, that's totally fascinating, you know, because the truth is, the truth is, I mean, there's so much that, that he does that we see this again. Just, he asked them how, how sure they are about their beliefs. He kind of teases apart what their main, the main foundations of their beliefs are. And then for each one he's like, well, if you took, if you took feelings away, you know, where would that leave you? And that always leads to fascinating conversations to the point where, you know, they're both saying like, oh no, if I had evidence, that wouldn't be as good as if I had feelings. I need feelings.

Guest 5 [01:38:33] Wasn't that he asked that, was it that or the missionaries where he asked, is that superior? Is it superior to believe something?

John Dehlin [01:38:40] And they're like, oh no, beliefs are way superior than evidence.

Guest 5 [01:38:43] Yeah. And I think that's interesting. And I didn't he just ask because you can never discuss, you can never discover that the faith isn't true. It's almost like with, with feelings, you can never be in a position to discover that there's actually might be holes in what you've based your entire life.

John Dehlin [01:38:59] I understand that. Because you could have feelings telling you that it's wrong or untrue.

Guest [01:39:03] Right.

Guest 5 [01:39:03] But they're in a place where their feelings. Because she didn't say feeling, she said that I have a sure knowledge over and over again. And that's kind of what we are just primed in Mormonism to do that it's almost not even faith. It's a sure knowledge that you know with every fiber of your being. Like, that's the kind of language Mormons use. And so if you go off of feelings and you find that superior to evidence, you are kind of in a position to never discover if it's true. So that's why you'll hear people ask, you know, in the spaces that we're in, like, if I could tell if I had something that would prove the church wasn't true, or if the church wasn't true. Would you want to know? Sometimes people will be 50, 50. Sometimes they'll be like, I don't want to see your evidence because feelings are superior. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:39:40] That's a really powerful place for someone to get. And I've. I've heard of people's faith crises and not that that's the goal of any of this, but I've heard people say it was someone asking me whether or not I would want to know if it wasn't true.

Guest 5 [01:39:55] Like Cody and Leah Young. That's what comes to mind.

John Dehlin [01:39:57] And realizing that, that the answer in their head was no, I wouldn't want to know. That being the trigger for them saying, well, then I must not be looking at this objectively.

Guest 5 [01:40:05] Right, yeah, yeah. Where it's like the preference would be feelings over evidence, but would you recommend that same method for coming to truth to somebody else? Would you recommend that? And I think that the way that Anthony asked those questions, the couple had some like, really interesting answers on that. But if you notice again, the circular logic where Jenny is like, only she said, only if I experimented and had the fruits to show. But that kind of is already admitting that you are likely conditioned to cherry pick what you see as good evidence because she was quite honest saying, like, I could also just say, if I wasn't religious, I would just say that the good fruits of me living a good life, I would just chalk up to living in America and being a blessed person. Right. Do you remember that part?

John Dehlin [01:40:43] Yeah, yeah.

Guest 5 [01:40:44] I thought that was really interesting and very truthful of her. And then. And again, like going back to the superiority of feelings over evidence, I. While I do identify as an atheist, I don't want people to get the wrong impression that I am anti religion. I understand the importance that spiritual things that can't always be explained have that are impactful and the society that we build and life is hard and people need some beautiful spiritual promptings and things that help them through hard times. So I definitely get that. But with that being said, I. This isn't necessarily a street epistemology type question, but it does beg the question that if you were in a trial, falsely accused of something, would you prefer the jury to go off of evidence?

John Dehlin [01:41:31] Or feelings?

Guest 5 [01:41:32] Or feelings? When push comes to shove, if something is very serious on the line, you go to prison or you go free,

John Dehlin [01:41:38] or if you're kids gonna die of cancer, do you want your doctor going on, you know, nature, you know, journal of a medical, major medical association? Do you want the treatment decisions based on science or on your doctor's, you know, feelings.

Guest 5 [01:41:54] Yeah. And yeah, that kind of also leads into the bigger thing of a lot of the reasons that Mormon stories of what we do, what we do, because there are families being torn apart by Mormonism, their families being torn apart by things that are founded in bad evidence, that are founded not in good empathy for people on different beliefs, LGBT identifying type people, different, you know, gender identities, different sexual orientations. So many different things.

John Dehlin [01:42:20] Beliefs about race.

Guest 5 [01:42:22] Yeah. The role of women, real life effects about what people feel that are, that their spiritual confirmations have real life effects. So when people say leave the church, leave it alone, all of those things. I wish we could, if people's, you know, spiritual promptings didn't lead them to tear families apart or all these different things that we want to minimize as much as possible. So like we were going back with the trial and the evidence. Having spiritual feelings that get you through hard times is a beautiful thing. But if it's harming people and if it has negative real world effects, we want to dig a little bit deeper and make sure that we're founding our beliefs and as much evidence as possible. So that's personally, and I can't speak for John or Mormon stories generally. That's personally. What I find really appealing about street epistemology is just have people second guess maybe if their beliefs after everything is said and done are founded in evidence and empathy.

John Dehlin [01:43:14] So, yeah, we talk a lot about informed consent on Mormon stories. And the truth is the church has been around long enough, the Mormon Church has been around long enough to realize that, that they're basically indoctrinating people to think, think that feelings are facts or evidence. And that almost deserves its own level of informed consent. Where you would sit a you, a child or a youth or even a investigator down and say, listen, we, we, we have as our epistemological foundation this idea that feelings are evidence and that, you know, other people may say that evidence should be evidence, not feelings and the feelings aren't a solid ground. That's where we stand. But, but we should disclose through informed consent that that's our bias and that that's what we're doing here. We are trying to elicit a feeling in you so that then we could associate that feeling with the prompting that that therefore means that what you are experiencing now is true. That approach probably deserves its own level of informed consent. Yeah, I think, yeah. Especially when you're dealing with children and you're teaching children, if you feel it, that means it's true. Well, I Like it that they always come back to, what about Muslims and the Quran? Like, what religion doesn't do that? And we should probably add in our show notes that classic video that we include on Mormon Stories podcast where we've got 10 or 20 different people of different faiths all bearing their testimony. And it's, guess what? Spoiler alert. It's always based on feelings and it always sounds almost identical whether you're Jewish or Muslim or fundamentalist Mormon or whatever. Evangelical.

Guest 5 [01:44:54] Yeah, yeah, Jehovah's Witnesses. It's really interesting because, I mean, there's another book called like Outsider Test for Faith, I think that I read kind of during my faith deconstruction type process, and you start to become a little bit more humble in your beliefs and just shrug your shoulders. And sometimes, I mean, I don't want everything to lead to nihilism necessarily. No, sometimes it turns into like, you have to be honest that as a Mormon I was, I thought my beliefs were special. I thought, you know, yes, this method is unreliable technically, but for me, since it's true, it's fine. But you know that you wouldn't necessarily advise someone else to use that method. But for me, it's special. For me, I make it work because you want it. Not only do you want it to work, your whole life depends on you making it work by you having a special pleading that your system for coming to the truth, that this is the right God, the right book, the right religion, you need it to be true because so much of your life revolves around, around Mormonism. It's a high demand religion by definition.

John Dehlin [01:45:53] So 10% of your income for life, two year mission service, like eternal marriage, like career choices, education choices, number of kid choices. There's just so much at stake. We're not, we're not about, on Mormon stories, tearing people's faith apart per se, or taking people out of the church. And even more importantly, street epistemology isn't about that either. It's really about, I mean, helping people be more thoughtful about what they base their life on and having them, you know, just, just be more clear and intentional.

Guest 5 [01:46:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:24] And by the way, you talked about kind of epistemic humility. That's something we really get into when we talk to Anthony. I think in part three, we talk about epistemic humility. And that'll be something you guys can look out for.

Guest 5 [01:46:39] Yep. And it's, you know, it plays at this logical fallacy of special pleading that I always think is really interesting. It kind of makes sure that we scratch that we don't have special pleading. Religious people don't have special pleading, that we get to have special rules for our method of coming to truth and that everything should kind of, when all things are even, that we are applying the same logic all the way across the board. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:47:00] Yeah, absolutely. Oh, well, another thing I love on your mind. Another thing I loved when he got her to repeat back the position he. He was taking.

Guest 5 [01:47:09] He felt like he was being misunderstood in his question. So he's like, what do you think my question is?

John Dehlin [01:47:13] And then she repeats it back. That is a. If you can get the person you're engaging in this conversation with, like you said in the last episode, to steel man to represent your argument. That's a. That shows that you're both operating in good faith, you're listening to each other and that you're engaged. And I was commenting to you off, off screen just by the end of this show how engaged Jenny and Anthony were. They were really thinking, they were really processing. And that's, for me, this. This is a really, really good example of street epistemology when it's working because they're thinking about their faith, they're debating back and forth.

Guest 5 [01:47:52] I want to be honest, I don't think. I don't think Mormon Anthony or necessarily missionaries were in a position where they wanted to be super honest and forthcoming with what they actually believe. But I think Jenny was very, very reflective and she's more advanced. I mean, yeah, I think Jenny did a fabulous job of being super honest and not just trying to put forward what she thinks that the church would want her to say. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think that she was really, really honest in making sure that she had as much reflection as possible to actually dig a little bit deeper and engage in this exercise. Whereas I think the other three, the two missionaries and Mormon Anthony weren't as quite committed to the exercise. They were more committed to preaching, which is. I don't know, maybe that's another male patriarchal thing to do. I have no idea.

John Dehlin [01:48:33] Yeah, another thing I loved. I loved it when Anthony Magnabosco made the point when he asked the question, is it possible that the fact that you two were told that the Mormon Church was true from the beginning, sort of being primed that way, is it possible that that has influenced the conclusions that you've arrived at in your mind emotionally, Was. I mean, that's. That. That is such a powerful question that we probably don't think about or acknowledge enough.

Guest 5 [01:49:03] Yeah, because he said that, like if somebody handed me the Book of Mormon a couple years ago because he's a convert, by the way, he's like, I wouldn't use it as fire, but I needed to have an emotional conviction first.

John Dehlin [01:49:12] And it perked up. He's like, oh, really? Tell me more.

Guest 5 [01:49:16] But is that.

John Dehlin [01:49:16] Let's explore that.

Guest 5 [01:49:17] Is that a good method to go. To go about things?

John Dehlin [01:49:19] It's almost like at one time you kind of were a critical thinker. What was it that made you decide to turn off your critical thinking?

Guest 5 [01:49:25] Yeah. And I mean, we know it's pretty factual when you say, John, that missionaries, they kind of are usually seeking out people that are in positions that would be questioning the meaning of life. Maybe they lost somebody close to them.

John Dehlin [01:49:39] Vulnerable financial hard times.

Guest 5 [01:49:41] They're looking for an emotional reason to convert to the church. Very few people, I think, you know, are converted for like, super high intellectual reasons where everything just makes sense and everything aligns. All the dominoes, all the puzzle pieces fit and then they have a spiritual confirmation later. It's. It's usually some, you know, more of emotional reason. Maybe it's horniness too. Maybe it's just somebody who.

John Dehlin [01:50:03] Looking for a. Yeah. I mean, how many.

Guest 5 [01:50:05] There's a lot of people who convert

John Dehlin [01:50:07] because there's romantic, Romantic conversions. I mean, that's one of the top reasons people join Mormon.

Guest 5 [01:50:12] I agree.

Guest 4 [01:50:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:13] In the modern era, I loved it when they were talking about our. Is. Is a. Is a position based on feeling. I mean, I'm kind of being repetitive here, but. But towards the end they were getting to this kind of nugget of are positions based on feelings more virtuous or more legitimate than positions based on facts or evidence? And again, I loved it that they were just, oh, it's all about the feelings. And it's so circular because then there's always this doctrine the Mormons will often come to. Karen, I'm sure you've seen this a lot where the Mormons will say, well, that's the plan of salvation from the beginning. Heavenly Father had to build a veil of forgiveness. Heavenly Father had to make it a test. And so it has to be about feelings, because if Heavenly Father were to have given us the evidence, then we would have no reason to believe. And isn't that convenient that it has to be built into the, quote, plan of salvation, that there isn't evidence? Because there clearly isn't. And so clearly it has to have been designed that way from the start.

Guest 5 [01:51:22] Yeah, yeah. And if you notice, I can't remember if I spliced. This part out or if it was actually in what we just watched, where Anthony make Mormon. Anthony makes the point that the purpose of life is to go through trials. And again, all of that is based on a foundation of your God belief. And so without epistemology to dig it. Well, how do you know that?

John Dehlin [01:51:41] Right?

Guest 5 [01:51:42] How do you know that there has

John Dehlin [01:51:43] to be a God to have God's plan of salvation?

Guest 5 [01:51:45] Yeah. And so that's where you get into this tricky situation where your interlocutor will want to tell you why their belief is so great. But it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. We want to move back and say, how do you even know that this belief is so great? What is it based on? And again, you'll just kind of come back to the circular logic of testing, testing the fruit, seeing the fruits, but being very. Having a strong confirmation bias and wanting to see what you want to see. And so sorry to throw my own parents under the bus a little bit, but my mom is a huge believer in by your fruits you shall know them. And when I bring up things about what about the fruits of polygamy? What about the fruits of like their racist doctrines? What about the fruits of that? Those are very conveniently ignored. And the fruits that Mormons want to see, which I do believe there are plenty of good fruits. I am not a Mormon hater the way that I think I get accused of being. I actually love a lot of, yes, there's a lot of. I had a beautiful, Christ centered home, you could say in my marriage, My marriage was stronger, um, because of the way that I practice Mormonism, you could say. And I believe there are a lot of people in the same way. So you can cherry pick all over the board what you want to cherry pick. But the point I'm trying to make here is just by be very, very careful when you are engaging with somebody in interlocutor for them to use like the fruits argument. Because you, you can get into a really nasty territory really quickly by going down the lane of like, well, let's talk about those fruits. I would just, I just want to like caution people to stay away from those that would be getting into debate territory about the merits of the belief system. And we, we don't even want to engage in that yet. We just want to talk about if they can sustain and I guess have a strong foundation to believe that in the first place. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:53:25] Yeah, totally. Kara, there's a couple comments or questions that I wanted to kind of read out, have you respond and Then maybe I can respond as well. Is that okay?

Guest 5 [01:53:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:34] So Tim Moore writes, I really love street epistemology. I don't know how effective it is on Mormons because they're taught that what they don't know shouldn't negate what they do know, and they fall back on that. What would you say to Tim? Anything come to mind? I don't mean to put you on the spot.

Guest 5 [01:53:52] Yeah, that's a great, great point and a great comment. The only thing that comes to mind is just like with anybody else, you can ask about the testability, falsifiability, you can still just. Just peel back the onion layers. And if it's not good with Mormons, then that's fine, too. At least you ask the questions. That's what comes to mind.

Guest 2 [01:54:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:13] And I think Anthony would say, okay, well, let's go to what you do know then, and. And let's analyze the foundations of that.

Guest 5 [01:54:19] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:54:20] That would be the move that he would take. All right, Ryan. Kara. Ryan writes. Ryan Wimmer. I tried the method on a Christian who believed there's evidence for Jesus's resurrection, that if he didn't already believe in the resurrection, if he would have found the alleged evidence persuasive. He answered, yes, but he did pause to think about it when we parted. I asked him to think deeper about that question. Any thoughts on Ryan's approach with the Christian?

Guest 5 [01:54:45] I need to read it again because I didn't understand it, but you could go first.

John Dehlin [01:54:48] Yeah. So, yeah, so, I mean, I guess you would have to believe that there was a God and that Jesus was the Son of God before it's even worth talking about the resurrection. I think this goes back to what you said and what Anthony tries to say. Getting into the weeds of specific religious or doctrinal beliefs kind of is beside the point of street epistemology. As soon as you're starting to talk about certain doctrinal tenets, you're probably off off topic. If you're trying to engage in street epistemology, you would say, well, for Jesus to be the son of God, there's got to be a God. And what's your. What's the basis of your belief in God? You wouldn't be.

Guest 5 [01:55:32] I think that's about 50 of it. I think. I think that's a fine question. What Ryan posted there to get at the root of what this person, what this person's highest priority, highest value is, whether it's literal evidence or if he already based his belief in Jesus on a feeling and was looking for like confirmatory evidence still words out on if confirmatory is a word or not. So jury's out still on that one.

John Dehlin [01:56:00] So I'm sure one of our viewers or listeners will tell us, do you

Guest 5 [01:56:03] know how hard it is to talk for a living and just be like, I hope this makes sense anyway, but I think that's a great question to ask.

John Dehlin [01:56:09] And feeling sorry for us.

Guest 5 [01:56:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:11] And we get picked on sometimes.

Guest 5 [01:56:13] No, but the great thing about Essie is that you can just literally ask a question and then end of the conversation and try to make another appointment and see how that question has sat with the person throughout the week and then pick up the conversation where you left off. So that's what's great about what Anthony does, is he hands out these little puzzle pieces and he says, you know, come back and you make a complete set. If we can get like three conversations, because you can only do so much one at a time. But yeah, I still think that's a great question. It show it gets to the root of why somebody believes that and what their value is.

John Dehlin [01:56:47] I like this point. Jonathan Anderson writes, it's a good, you know, closing comment. Not, not that we're exactly closing, but Jonathan Anderson writes, if a thing is true, it should welcome investigation and questioning and question, question and questioning. Truth will win out. I like that. Is it J. Rubin Clark who said, if. If we have the truth, will it. It cannot be harmed. If we have not the truth, it should be harmed armed. Yeah, that's. I think that's kind of a really, a really true believing Mormon should view it that way. That they have nothing to fear and that they're. They're on the billboard of their beliefs. Yeah, that is, that is good. All right. If there's a donor out there that wants to support a billboard brought to you by CBS Letter and Mormon Stories, we'll help you make that happen.

Guest 5 [01:57:38] Yeah, as I, as an ex Mormon, even as a Mormon, I would have agreed with that statement. It was said by a Mormon leader. I think that's a fabulous way to go about things. I think, like BYU and, you know, it's an accredited university that has studies and scientists and research, would follow the scientific method and would want to have investigation put to all of different claims, including religious claims. So I think that Mormons, at their core, they do want investigation. They do want people to poke and prod, and they want to seek truth wherever it's found. I do believe that that is a. A value that I hold today that I got from Mormonism to be Honest

John Dehlin [01:58:16] Cindy writes, wow, this could help us negotiate better with others. I'm hooked. Now, let's see. Well, you know, let's just address what our viewers and listeners are going to get for the rest of the week. This is street epistemology. Anthony Magnabosco Week on Mormon Stories. We're going to have five days in a row of street epistemology and Anthony Magnabosco. We brought him here a couple weeks ago for thrive and for those who didn't join us at the beginning. Tuesday. Tomorrow is going to be Anthony's story where he goes in for a couple hours. He was surprised at the level of depth.

Guest 5 [01:58:49] Remember, it's so cute. Cause he's like, not obviously, like a regular Mormon Stories listener. And John's like, ask him about his childhood. And he's like, no one's ever asked me this stuff before. We're like, welcome to Mormon stories, Anthony.

John Dehlin [01:58:58] He's like, is anybody gonna care about my. But I think it'll probably be the most in depth interview he ever does. I know. It's life.

Guest 5 [01:59:04] I love it.

John Dehlin [01:59:05] Yeah. And he tries to redirect me and I'm like a dog. We're not talking.

Guest 5 [01:59:08] We literally. I like, asked questions about Essie and John's like, wait for tomorrow. We want to know about this guy's story first. It's cute.

John Dehlin [01:59:15] I was worried that I upset you a little bit because I'm like, carrie, you're going too fast. I want to hear a story now.

Guest 5 [01:59:20] Because I say in the interview tomorrow that it's like, when? Especially a couple of years ago, maybe like a year ago when I was really into all of Anthony's videos and stuff. You. It's what you want to know. You want to know, who is this guy? Where did he come from? What's his religious background? How did he get started in this? You're like, what does his family think? How does somebody just pick this up as a hobby? Do you make money from it? Just answering all of the questions that you won't get anywhere else. So that'll be tomorrow's interview.

John Dehlin [01:59:41] That's day two. And then day three, Wednesday is going to be Anthony kind of giving an overview of what street epistemology is. We wanted to show you today so that you would care enough to watch, to learn about his story and then have the context to then understand us. Talking about street epistemology on Wednesday, which is part three. And you want to talk about part four again, just really quickly. Our favorite. Probably our favorite.

Guest 5 [02:00:06] Yeah. Part four is really interesting. I. I don't want to kind of give away. We shouldn't give away too much about it. I want you to watch and see because I.

John Dehlin [02:00:15] It's epic. It's kind of like Muhammad Ali, George Foreman.

Guest 5 [02:00:18] Does it not go the way exactly. That you think it's gonna go? It's. It's super surprising. I've never seen anything like it. Let's just put it that way.

John Dehlin [02:00:25] Because on Mormon Stories, one of the early videos I ever did on Mormon Mormon Stories was with Sean McCraney. We brought him to Logan, sat him down, and he's been an ex Mormon evangelical preacher for decades.

Guest 5 [02:00:39] He hosted the midnight Mormons debate with RFM just a couple weeks ago. Anyone familiar with that?

John Dehlin [02:00:45] But he had a show, a TV show called Heart of the Matter that turned into a YouTube channel. And he's been doing this as long as I have, if not longer of just scrutinizing Mormonism, but from a super believing preacher, pastor, evangelical Christian standpoint.

Guest 5 [02:01:01] I actually, I met him in the hallway when he came in and I almost cried. He's actually a little bit of a hero of mine just because I remember watching him when I was like 15 or 16 in my parents house in Provo when he was on his, you know, his TV show that was like a public access kind of TV show that he hosted, Heart of the Matter, thinking who is this guy saying all this crazy anti Mormon stuff about Mormonism? And then, you know, you grow up and it was, a lot of it was true. Right. And so it was the first person that I ever, ever knew had some truth about Mormonism that had ever been kept from me that I saw on tv. And you're typical, you do the kind of, the typical Mormon thing where you're like, this guy's crazy. And then you were like, actually he had some good points there. So it was really fun that I got to meet Sean.

John Dehlin [02:01:41] Yeah. And we literally like the day of or the day before we had the idea of bringing him on because we were again, we were trying to figure out if we were going to take Anthony to do street epistemology, like should we do it on Temple Square, should we go to byu? Like, and, and we just didn't have the time. And so like, we had this aha moment of like, let's bring out, let's call Sean McCready.

Guest 5 [02:02:03] You know, it was so cool. I asked a couple other people to come on some other Mormon YouTubers and

John Dehlin [02:02:08] things and they weren't super keen.

Guest 5 [02:02:10] They weren't super keen. Even though, you know, people, people of all different backgrounds really respect, respect street epistemology and what Anthony does. But Sean was a good sport. He literally, we got, we called him the morning of and he hopped on over. It was awesome. But that is going to be. I don't want to kind of give away what happens in that interview. It's very interesting. Very, very interesting. And yeah, okay, what else?

John Dehlin [02:02:34] And then part five Friday will be Kara and I role playing as believing Mormon parents where we put Anthony Magnavasco in the difficult role of being a Mormon who had recently lost his faith. Because, let's be frank, why are we showing you all of this? It's unlikely that most of you, although we should talk about this, some of you may want to be the Anthony Magnabascos of Mormonism here in Utah or wherever you live. Because we do want to encourage people to do record street epistemology conversations with believing Mormons and we're even willing to coach you on that, mentor you through a discord channel that we're going to share a link with. And then if you do high quality or high enough quality audio or video, high enough quality, effective enough street epistemology conversations with Mormons, we will invite you and or repost your videos and conversations on the Mormon Stories channel. Is that right?

Guest 5 [02:03:33] Yes. And furthermore, Street Epistemology International is the nonprofit that Anthony runs with a few other awesome people. And you will hear in his interview talking about how they have actually got funding to give people camera equipment, audio equipment, train them to go out and be able to practice this technique because what they want to do is be able to have data on does this change minds? What does it do long term mentally to people? This needs to actually be studied. And so that's kind of what the Street Epistemology International does. And so if you're actually really interested in this technique, please click the links that'll be in the show notes and get more information on this and get plugged in with the different S E communities. They're really fascinating and engaging and super helpful.

John Dehlin [02:04:17] And are. Are you still thinking about doing I am Woman on the Street.

Guest 5 [02:04:21] So busy. I was. I literally told Anthony, how are you? Busy as a real slave driver. No. John's Lindsay Delight. But we have so many projects here. I would love to find the time to be able to do that out on the street. People might be like, I know her, she works for Mormon Stories. But other than that, no, she's new on.

John Dehlin [02:04:38] So I've seen her on TikTok is what they're going to say.

Guest 5 [02:04:40] Yeah, but I Literally told Anthony that if John never offered me a job here and this never happened, I would literally be trying to run a YouTube channel similar to his because I really believe in it and I love it so much. So it's definitely a passion of mine. So we'll see what 2022 brings.

John Dehlin [02:04:57] So if you feel called to be the Anthony Magnabosco of Mormonism, reach out to us and we want to support you and showcase your work. But the reason why I brought that all up is because the most common use case scenario that I think I envisioned as we were thinking about bringing Anthony on is that so many of you are going through a faith crisis or have been through a faith crisis and you're going to need to talk to your parents or your siblings or your bishop or your loved ones. I would love for street epistemology to be used in that way. And so we role play believing Mormons. Put Anthony on Friday in the difficult spot of representing a questioning or a non believing Mormon. And that's day five and that's how we wrap up. And man, if any of you end up having meetings with your bishops or stake presidents or family members, please. Yeah, we would love to help you. Even if you want to record those conversations, even we'll consider, as long as it's not illegal and it doesn't violate someone's privacy or confidentiality. We don't, we don't want to dox people. Yeah, we would even be willing to share you guys attempting street epistemology with believing loved ones because I think that might be the, the way this is used most.

Guest 5 [02:06:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:14] And Anthony's really interested in that use case scenario.

Guest 5 [02:06:17] Yeah, that's one of the things I was talking about, what they want to study of how it can be applied to different situations.

John Dehlin [02:06:21] Yeah.

Guest 5 [02:06:22] Because talking to a stranger is vastly different than talking to somebody you have a connected long term relationship with that you're going to see again, you know. And so what I find really interesting about the role play that we're going get into in part five is how many times have you ever seen an hour long discussion between somebody who just lost their faith talking to their believing parents? I don't think that video exists on the Internet. So what we did is we kind of role played it of what it might sound like. And it's almost like you get to be a fly on a wall. I know we're role playing. I think we did a really good

John Dehlin [02:06:51] job not to be too hard.

Guest 5 [02:06:53] I actually studied up for like what to say. I had to go back and, like, write down a script for myself of, like, how to believe.

John Dehlin [02:07:00] We were like having in an Italian restaurant and cares like, I had my laptop listening to things and taking so busy that week.

Guest 5 [02:07:06] It was like two days before Thrive. I had no time, but I was like, I want to be the best believing Mormon that I can be. I want to actually represent what my mom would say in this conversation, you know, so how many times are you going to have a conversation with like that? So it's going to be interesting. It's going to be me and John pretend to be Mormons.

John Dehlin [02:07:20] Yeah, we have some experience at that.

Guest 5 [02:07:22] Yeah, it's fun.

John Dehlin [02:07:23] Anyway, super quick shout out. We got a Super chat just now. Care if you'll show that we really appreciate. Diamond Dave sent us 100 bucks through the Super Chat feature here on YouTube. We really appreciate whenever people donate to our YouTube channel through Super Chat or just directly through MormonStories.org or the open Stories foundation because your donations, just to be frank, they pay for Kara, they pay for me, they pay for Gerardo, they pay for our equipment. So thank you for donating. Whenever you join us live, you can also do. You know, Facebook has an equivalent feature called Stars where you can click on the stars and it sends us some financial support as well. So you can donate through Facebook using stars or YouTube using super chat or you can just go to MormonStories.org and click on the donate button. But thank you. Was it Diamond Dave, thank you for the super chat. Thanks to all of you who support us. And we talk in our next four episodes with Anthony about how we can help Anthony. He said that if he could only raise 40 grand, he can finish this incredibly important curriculum of training that he wants to offer people. So we want to help Anthony fundraise too.

Guest [02:08:34] Yeah.

Guest 5 [02:08:35] Yeah. So make sure to find all of the links and see where you can donate.

John Dehlin [02:08:39] All right, so that's part one. Good job, Kara. I think that was really valuable. And we hope you enjoyed Anthony. Well, an illustration of Anthony using street epistemology with four Mormons. And now we hope you've got that background to appreciate the rest of street epistemology. Anthony Magnabosco Week on Mormon Stories podcast.

Guest 5 [02:09:01] Are you guys pumped? I'm so pumped.

John Dehlin [02:09:04] This wouldn't have happened without you, Kara, because I've wanted to interview him for a long time, but you have almost like an intellectual romance with Anthony Magnabosco in all the appropriate ways. This wouldn't happen without you. So thank you for letting it happen.

Guest 5 [02:09:18] Yeah, thanks for letting me. I literally first Day at Mormon Stories, I busted in the door and I was like, how can we get Anthony over here? I was like, because they've been planning this pre Covid and Anthony had to cancel his trip. So I was like, it's gonna happen.

John Dehlin [02:09:29] So you've met. You've met Anthony Magnabosco and Bill Real. Who's left?

Guest 5 [02:09:33] Sam Harris.

John Dehlin [02:09:33] Sam Harris. Okay, we'll work on that. We'll work on that. All right.

Guest 4 [02:09:37] All right, everyone.

John Dehlin [02:09:38] Well, we hope. Thank you, Cara. You're awesome. Thanks everyone for joining us today. And please tune back. Are we doing it at 11am Mountain time over the next four days? Is that sound good?

Guest 5 [02:09:47] Deal.

John Dehlin [02:09:48] Let's do it. Eleven? Yeah. So all of you, if you want to join us for the live stream.

Guest 5 [02:09:51] Actually, it might already be scheduled for tomorrow.

John Dehlin [02:09:53] Okay, well, check out YouTube. It'll be pre scheduled, but we'll do it around 10 or 11 mountain time over the next four days. And that's how we're doing the live streams. We'd love you to join us. Thanks to everyone who commented today on YouTube and on Facebook. And again, thanks for the donations and the super chats. They help make this all possible. And thanks to Anthony for coming to Utah, speaking at Thrive, and for what his great work. Because I think it's a important puzzle piece or an important tool in your tool belt to help you with believing family and friends and people you meet.

Guest 5 [02:10:27] Yeah. And just thank you Mormon Stories listeners for going on this. I just. I have faith in you that you are looking for something a little bit different and. And maybe something out of the normal Mormon truth claims that we've already done. So thank you for going on this kind of intellectual truth claims of the foundations of why we believe things and the psychology behind it. So just thanks for going on this journey with us. I hope that you'll be excited to go on this ride because I know I am. So it's going to be five days of an investment, but I think you will come out the other side having grown in your brain and. And it'll be really fun. So thanks for joining us.

John Dehlin [02:11:06] All right, everyone, you guys take care. We'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Bye, everybody.

Guest 4 [02:11:12] Bye.

Introducing Anthony Magnabosco and His Background

Part 2 of 5 · Ep. 1514

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It is November 11, 2021, and we are so super excited to have a very, very special guest here in studio today at Mormon Stories Podcast studios in Holiday, Utah, which is near Salt Lake City. Today we have with us the man, the myth, the legend, Anthony Magnabosco. Hello, Anthony.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:00:24] Hello, John. How are you?

John Dehlin [00:00:25] It's so good to have you.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:00:26] Thanks for having me here. It's cool to be here, how you are. How long have we been trying to set this up?

John Dehlin [00:00:30] Months, if not years. I mean, pre Covid. Right?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:00:32] Yeah. We've had messages going back and forth trying to set something up. We finally were able to do it, so it's cool.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] Anthony, you may not know this, but a couple months ago, I brought Kara on to kind of help out a little bit, and Kara is a bit of a fan, I'm going to say modestly. Kara can correct me if she wants,

Guest 6 [00:00:49] but I busted in the Mormon Stories door, and I said, when can we get Anthony McAvowski on here? I want to blush if I have any sway to throw around. Get him in.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:00:58] I'm flattered.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] Thank you.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:00:59] That's cool.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Yeah. And so Kara's like, when are we getting Anthony on? And so I'm like, yeah, we were in talks.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:01:04] We started. It just kind of. Kind of fell apart. And then I was here while I was in Utah with my family earlier this year in July.

John Dehlin [00:01:12] Down south, right?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:01:13] Yeah. Is it down south? I think so, yes.

Guest 6 [00:01:16] Zion.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:01:17] Zion Moab. It was awesome. We just had such a great, great visit.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] When Brigham Young brought the pioneers here, he declared this is the place. So you're. You're basically agreeing with Brigham Young.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:01:28] That's probably worth exploring. Give five minutes for a short talk. Oh.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] So, listeners, many of you will know about street epistemology and Anthony's amazing work on YouTube. If you were to go to YouTube. And for me, I've consumed your work by typing in Anthony Magnavasco on YouTube. And that goes to your YouTube channel. I noticed there's also a Street Epistemology YouTube channel, but it doesn't seem to have the content that your channel does. Do I have that right?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:01:57] That's pretty accurate. I mean, my channel is all about my stuff. And there are other people who have uploaded video examples of people doing street epistemology, and they upload those to their channels. But the street epistemology channel is sort of a community channel. In fact, there's. Right now, I think they're streaming a review of one of my videos with Mormon missionaries.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] Yeah, yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:02:18] So they do put some stuff out there, but it's not quite as prolific as me. Although I got to say, I'm scaling back my uploading. I'm not going out and doing street interviews much anymore. I'm tied up with other stuff, the nonprofit and all those other stuff know,

John Dehlin [00:02:30] and I can't wait to get to that. I can't wait to get that. But there's so many listeners and viewers that are also saying, who the heck is this guy? What is the street epistemology and why are we even talking about it? So I was introduced to street epistemology several months, several years ago when someone just said, hey, check this out, this is kind of cool. And it's basically Anthony just kind of walking around a park or a. It almost seems like a, a quad at a university and, and just kind of saying, hey, can I talk to you for a few minutes about your cherished beliefs? These are my words, not yours.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:03:03] You're doing great so far.

John Dehlin [00:03:04] And, you know, maybe a couple Mormon missionaries, it may be a young Mormon couple that's jogging down the road, or maybe a Catholic or an anti vaxxer or, you know, an evangelical Christian or whatever. And the way that I would have characterized it when I first saw it was just a nice guy trying to be non combative and non confrontational, trying to kind of get to why people believe what they believe. There is a legend within Mormonism. His name is Jeremy Runnels. He created a book called CES Letter. Jeremy's a huge fan of yours as well. And so I'm only using that because appeals to authority work. And if Jeremy Runnels loves you and I love you and Kara loves you, I don't know how much more you need in Mormonism.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:03:50] I love it. I love the ex Mormon community. I'm running to a lot of people. Even early on when we started forming these groups that Jeremy I think is a part of. There's a Facebook group.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] And also Jonathan Streeter loves you. Thinker of thoughts.

Guest 6 [00:04:03] And I love Jonathan Streeter.

John Dehlin [00:04:04] Yeah, so you're just universally loved.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:04:06] I appreciate that, man. That's really cool.

What Is Street Epistemology and How Did It Start

John Dehlin [00:04:08] So viewers, listeners, have we appealed enough to authority for you to say, wow, I gotta pay attention to this guy. No, seriously, Anthony, tell us, describe what it is that street epistemology is. Tomorrow when we have you back, we're gonna actually practice it, maybe do some role play.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:04:24] Awesome.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] But today we just want to hear your story. But before we jump into that, how would you Describe street epistemology.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:04:30] Yeah, I mean, that's the technique that is bringing me here. I suppose it's. Sometimes we go overboard making it almost sound too difficult, but in essence it's engaging with somebody in a friendly manner where you're not targeting or attacking the claim that they've made, but you're actually exploring how they determine that their reasons for thinking that their claim is true are good reasons for thinking that it's the case and it's trying to take yourself out of it and making it about them. It's originated, I guess you could say, or maybe spun off from the Socratic method. And then I think we've glommed on things from psychology, motivational interviewing, cognitive behavioral therapy. Basically we experiment and say let's try asking a question this way as opposed to this, or let's do this. It's been this community wide thing that others, ex Mormons and atheists and people from all this kind of started in atheism, by the way, but we don't want to limit it to that because we think it's a great tool that anybody can use. But it's not targeting the claim that's being made, it's kind of digging down to the lower level. How did you determine that that's a good reliable method for thinking that this is true? And when you focus on the technique that a person used to get to their conclusion as opposed to just focusing on the conclusion, people tend to open up and really start thinking about how they came to that conclusion. And it doesn't usually elicit a defensive reaction as well. People tend to even enjoy it, which is kind of weird because you're challenging one of their core beliefs usually. Yet at the end of it, people are like, they're seemingly grateful for having had the talk and, and they often come back for more, which is really interesting. But if I was debating or arguing with somebody and giving them facts or arguing verse for verse that, well, you say this, but this verse says this, that's not going to get you very far. And it seems like this approach, this technique, rebuttal approach, which street epistemology I would say falls into, seems like one of the best ways and maybe most empathetic ways of talking with people who have views that we think are wrong.

John Dehlin [00:06:44] Yeah, yeah. And within a Mormon context, Mormons don't have a lot of non Mormon friends. We tend, because we're a high demand religion, we tend to really surround ourselves as orthodox believing Mormons pretty much with other orthodox believing Mormons. If somebody isn't an orthodox believing Mormon, we usually don't have time for them or we are threatened by them, or, you know, we, we find a way to cut them out of our lives. And what's more problematic though, is now that there's this epidemic of people leaving the Mormon Church, cherished friends and family members become non believers. Many of my listeners will be included in that group. But we have to figure out a way to communicate with our still orthodox and still believing family and friends. And oftentimes when we discover like problematic history or problematic truth claims or even ways the church might harm people, we think that, oh, we've discovered new evidence. So we're just going to share it with our believing family and friends and everything's going to be solved. They're going to come along with us on the journey and what that often ends up doing is creating a lot of adversity and tension and lots of relationships get ruined. So we've spent many, many hours on Mormon Stories podcast just helping listeners figure out how to talk to orthodox believing family and friends and how to avoid what, what I'm, what I call, what I've learned to call the backfire effect, which I'm sure you're pretty familiar with as well. But that's what I, that's where I think your stuff is going to be. Kind of be gold because hopefully it will be a tool that, that Mormons who have lost their faith or who have become unorthodox. It's a set of tools that can be used to talk with still orthodox, still believing family and friends. I think for sure, at least something to try.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:08:37] Why not? I mean, most of the examples that you'll see of people using street epistemology tend to be with strangers who are not expecting a conversation. They don't know you, you don't have a lot of skin in the game, but you can use the approach and we, we encourage people to use se with family and friends, but I think it's trickier because they know you. They could be very dug in and dogmatic in their position. There's a lot at stake. Also just even asking them if they would be willing to explore their God belief with you could in and of itself be a problem. So you have to tread very carefully. There are some things that you can consider doing. So for example, you may not want to question a religious view at all with, with somebody or a topic that is very sensitive at the moment, but maybe find a safer topic. Figure out like just listen to what they say. People are making claims all the Time, or you can even observe somebody else making a claim. And then you can teach this person who is a family member that maybe you don't want to talk about the God stuff, but you can just teach them how to explore a different claim altogether. Because it's the tool set that's important. Sometimes we think once you learn this questioning approach, which is really good at helping a person take a look at their views, we tend to want to use that tool and beat people over the head with it to bring them to our side. And I would caution people not to do that. I think it's really important to try to use the tool to help the person reflect on their views and then leave them alone to process it. And if they come back up to you, you can continue the talk. But yeah, hitting people over the head with facts or that type of thing, you might get lucky. You might raise the one fact that was the very thing that they were wondering about. But. But otherwise, if you don't know that, you're kind of guessing, you're kind of shooting in the dark. So it's so much better just to start a talk, figure out what is propping up their belief. Well, number one, ask if they want to even talk with you about this stuff. Some people don't even want to talk about it. And then you can shift to safer topics. But most people do like talking about their religious views. They can't stop talking about them. So that could be a door for a lot of people.

John Dehlin [00:10:51] I love it. So when we bring you back tomorrow, I'm really excited to really dig into what is street epistemology, even more than we have so far, and a role play. We're going to see if we want to do some man on the street. We need to talk to you about that later tonight. But what I wanted to do in our first episode was just get your story. Sure, that's a bit of a background. Everyone, this is going to be really valuable. But I don't know much about you at all. I'm super interested that you threw down motivational interviewing, because I do. I did study psychology, and that was a key technique I learned. And as I was watching your street epistemology videos, I'm like, man, this sounds a lot like motivational interviewing.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:34] People say that all the time. Well, not all the time, but it's frequent. I get emails once a week by people saying, I went to school to study what you're doing, psychology or something. I've even had psychotherapists email me to say, I'm and now I'm employing these techniques in my practice and having better conversations, which blows my mind.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] Yeah, for sure.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:53] Like I'm just some layperson who discovered this technique and started going on the street to. To use it. So there seems to be some similarities to. To psychotherapy in that regard.

John Dehlin [00:12:01] For sure.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] All right, well, let's start with just your kind of background. So I'm curious, I'm dying to know, did you. Were you raised religious? So let's just start with your kind of upbringing. This is kind of typical long form Mormon story stuff. So kind of where were you born and raised? And was religion involved is my first set of questions.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:23] I was born and raised in Chicago Heights, Illinois, about 30 miles south of Chicago. Okay, Chicago guy.

John Dehlin [00:12:30] So I worked for Arthur Anderson early in my career. That's a firm you may or may not have heard of.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:36] I've heard of them.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] They kind of blew up after Enron.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:39] Right. They were the ones who signed off on the financial documents for Enron. Yeah, we went to Enron Earth Day once. I don't know if you ever went to one of those things. No, it was a big thing in Houston, I think they all ran it for like two years and then the company imploded. But yeah, anyways.

John Dehlin [00:12:53] Well, I was in Chicago from kind of 95 to 97, and my oldest child was born there. So we were living in Naperville and I worked downtown. And so, yeah, I got a couple of years in Chicago and then my sister lived in Schaumburg, Cary, Lake, Zurich kind of area. Northwest suburbs.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:13] So I'm a big fan.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:14] So I'm like the south side of Chicago, very Italian, very Catholic.

John Dehlin [00:13:17] South side.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:18] Yep. South side of Chicago.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] And Jim Croce sings about that in Bad Bad Leroy Brown. Are you not familiar with that song?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:25] Sorry, no, I don't listen to a lot of music.

John Dehlin [00:13:27] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:27] I really don't. This podcast for me, he goes in

John Dehlin [00:13:30] the south side of Chicago, is the baddest part of town at Leroy Brown. Bad Bad. Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:39] Well, I'm the oldest of four and I. I was always kind of questioning things and I would pretend to be sick because I didn't want to go to church. And I just.

John Dehlin [00:13:48] What was the church again?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:50] What was the name of it?

John Dehlin [00:13:51] No.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:51] Yeah, it's Catholic church. Yeah. So I was raised in a Catholic family, went to a Catholic church called St. Agnes.

John Dehlin [00:13:58] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:58] And I didn't. I wasn't the altar boy. I didn't. My friends did the altar boy thing, but, I mean, we went to school Every day there were classes and you could even, you could smell the, the incense smoke coming down the hallway on certain days of the week when they had these different ceremonies. But I always, it just seemed made up to me as a kid. And then I asked my mom and dad, I was like, is this, is this is God made up like Santa Claus? And they flipped. They like really kind of freaked out at that. Like, no, no, no. Like God's real. And then I sat down with a priest and a nun who assured me, I'm seven or eight years old, assured me, no, God is real. It's not made up. The adults aren't playing around here. And they asked me if I believed, and I said I did, but I was just going through the motions because I could tell that it was important to them. So I always kind of, I guess I always didn't really believe that it was true. But I went along with it for the longest time until I got married and starting having kids and realizing I don't think that this is true. And I feel like I'm in a position where I could say something or maybe try to do something about it. And that's when I discovered books by like, Richard Dawkins and those types of things that really got me into the idea of maybe doing some sort of activism.

John Dehlin [00:15:16] Can I ask you a question about Catholicism?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:15:17] Go for it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:18] So I've got this idea that there are these high demand religions like Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, Mormons, and maybe you could even count evangelical Christians as like people that take belief super seriously, kind of almost more fundamentalist. And then, then I have this idea that they're like either the Catholics or the Protestants that are like, it's all myth, you know, the Pope, you know, okay, he doesn't like birth control, but we don't pay attention to that guy. So I have this impression that belief isn't as important to Catholics and to Protestants as it would be to Mormons and evangelical Christians. What was your experience with your family and the people you knew growing up?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:15:56] It's interesting you say that because when I was going to the church and made to go to church, it was pretty evident that all the people around me believed it. And it was a really big deal, big part of our culture. So we would go to church once or twice a week. The holidays were a big deal. People in my community, as far as I can tell, really believed it now. And we would pray before dinners and all sorts of meals and fast on certain days. So my family was really into it. But when I discovered street epistemology, this technique of talking with people, one of the first places I went to was the Alamo to talk to the street preachers in San Antonio, Texas. And the first day, I think they wanted to know, well, was I a believer or not? I said, well, I used to be a Catholic. Well, that was the same as admitting that I never believed in their mind. So it didn't really dawn on me that there was these degrees of adherence maybe, or dedication to the belief. And then I started talking with people who are Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses and people from the LDS Church. And then it was like, these folks are really in it. They think that this is the literal word of God. And I've never seen such zealous commitment to the Word when I was going to the Catholic Church. But I think it would be unfair to say that Catholics don't believe it as strongly. But maybe they're not willing to go as far as other denominations. Perhaps, like they're. I don't think they're sending people away for two years to go on missions trips. Right. Like they will do in the LDS Church. So there's.

John Dehlin [00:17:33] They're not high demand. Maybe they're kind of moderate, Moderate demand, low demand. I don't know. Well, it's hard to put things in boxes, right? And I.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:17:41] It's hard. I don't even know what's going on with that church. And just as all this is anecdotal, but about two years ago, I went back to my hometown for a friend who passed away went to that same church, and they had removed the first third of all the pews and they brought the altar further, you know, closer to the crowd to be closer to the people. And I was thinking, well, they must be having trouble filling these churches. So it seems like there's an exodus of people. When you look at the polls, too, it seems to bear that out.

John Dehlin [00:18:08] Spotlight hasn't been super friendly to Catholic Church. Did you see the Spotlight movie?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:12] Oh, I think my wife had it on last night, as a matter of fact.

John Dehlin [00:18:16] Oh, fun.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:17] Yeah. Who?

John Dehlin [00:18:17] You haven't seen it?

Guest 6 [00:18:18] Yeah. Fun time.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:18] No, I've watched it.

Guest 6 [00:18:19] It's a real knee slapper.

John Dehlin [00:18:21] It's a hoot.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:22] No, I watched. I'm trying to think of the guy's name. He played Batman. Michael Keaton. Is Michael Keaton in? Yeah, yeah, I happened to notice that she was watching it yesterday.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] Yeah, it's just the priest pedophilia kind of stuff.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:33] See, none of that ever happened to me. And that's the other thing too. When I tell people I used to be a Catholic, that's usually the first thing. Like, well, what do they do to you? Or there's also this misconception that I think people think Catholics worship statues or something. It's usually a derogatory thing.

John Dehlin [00:18:51] Well, that's, that's what I was taught as a Mormon growing up, but I don't.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:54] They pray to statues, but I wouldn't say they worship. I guess maybe technically they do. Anyways, I, I don't see myself as a Catholic. I haven't for, for decades now.

John Dehlin [00:19:03] But, but all. I think most religions in the Western world are kind of on the ropes in decline. Mormonism, I think Catholicism, like it Protestant.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:19:13] I wish I had some hard numbers. I've seen some polls and things and, and what I see happening on TikTok in particular with the XLDS church, I mean Exmo TikTok.

John Dehlin [00:19:24] Shout out to ex Mormon TikTok. That's how I met Kara, by the way. Kara is a kind of. Was one of the leading ex Mormon tiktokers.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:19:31] And well, the algorithm loves it for me and I watch them and I'm so encouraged when I see it because it's, it's, you know, sometimes you'll, you'll go to YouTube and watch a 30 minute video to see one concept being displayed, but on TikTok you'll see four of those concepts.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:19:49] Introduced to younger, younger people. It's just, it's phenomenal to see.

John Dehlin [00:19:54] So what made you. So you weren't ra. You, you weren't highly participatory as a Catholic in high school. Right?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:20:02] I mean, I, I didn't work at the church, but I went to church. I.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] Okay, yeah. So you did your cat, you did your first communion and all that.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:20:09] Did the first communion, begrudgingly. Did the confirmation where I told my parents, you know, I mean, this is eighth grade. What am I, 15 years old or 14? Mom, dad, they say you're not supposed to do this if you don't believe. And they were like, just go ahead and do it and go through it. So I just kind of went through the motions on it, you know.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] And as you kind of got into later teen years, did you have experiences in the church that kind of. Because like for many of us who leave Mormonism, we have some trauma, traumatizing experience. I had a really bad experience on my mission. For example, other people may be abused in the church and then some. It's just, it's literally a matter of, like, learning history that they weren't made aware of. That was also a big problem for me. But. But usually there's some jolt. Did you have a jolt out of Catholicism?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:20:59] There really wasn't. It was just a long, slow, gradual slide. And that almost suggests, like, it's a downward thing. Like, it was a positive thing. You know, I became more and more aware of what they were teaching and that it couldn't be backed up and that you can still be good without thinking that there's a God. So it was a nice, long, gradual thing. I eased out of it really nicely. There wasn't a big, shocking, traumatic experience at all in my life with regards to that.

John Dehlin [00:21:25] And then. Did you, like, know people that were hurt by the church? Because I like you, I kind of. I kind of think of the world a little bit as, like, superheroes and non superheroes. You know, there's like, normal people and then there's people that, like, really raise their voices for a cause. And that's. It's just a bias I have. It's like how I view the world. And I kind of view you as a superhero. You know, I don't know if you're DC or Marvel. Maybe we're Marvel and you're DC, but, like, you're right. You've got more, you know, YouTube followers than me, which isn't hard. But, I mean, that's something. I've been doing this for 16 years, so you've got it. You've been. You really care about this stuff. Like, and so I'm trying. I was. I guess I was trying to dig at what made you care so much about this to, like, really, like, lead a movement and. And amass such a significant following.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:22:16] Good question. And you would think it would be trauma. Now, I don't dismiss any of the trauma. In fact, trauma, religious trauma syndrome is a real thing. And there's great services, like recovering from religion, that are awesome, that I volunteer for.

John Dehlin [00:22:29] Oh, yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:22:30] On the side.

John Dehlin [00:22:31] It's a great. Let's add that to the show. Great work.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:22:34] They're doing such good work.

John Dehlin [00:22:35] They've got, like, people who, like, answer the phone. Like, if you're coming out of your faith and you need help, you can.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:22:40] Right.

John Dehlin [00:22:41] Call people.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:22:42] Sure. If you're. If you're going through that transition out or deconstructing your religion, it's a great sounding board. They don't. They don't instill doubt. However, they will use a variation of street epistemology when people call in. What do you think might be the best solution for you at this time. They are asking se type of questions with the people who reach out. But to go back to your question, it wasn't a traumatic event. What really got me interested in the whole street epistemology stuff and just activism in general was learning that I damaged relationships with my loved ones as I was leaving religion.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] You did?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:23:20] Yeah. So even though it was a nice long, slow, gradual thing, you start noticing how harmful the religious views can be on people and then you start noticing how they could have been harmful to yourself and probably were. That motivated me to want to talk to people about religion and show them how silly it was.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] So you saw Catholics predominantly being harmed by either your leaving or other people leaving or just.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:23:48] Well, it's funny. No, I actually saw more instances of people being harmed from a religion when I started going online, like my different groups just going on Facebook and that type of thing. I guess I was drawn to atheist communities. And then you start learning the different harm that comes with it. So I couldn't really point to somebody in my life where I would say, well, they were harmed from this church. But I was actually surprised to learn that so many people are. That discovery was very huge for me and motivated me to want to do something with recovering from religion. But then what really kind of got me on the se stuff was arguing with my family and friends about religion and showing them facts that they were wrong and ridiculing them and posting crazy memes and seeing those relationships disintegrate.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] Was it primarily again about Catholicism?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:24:39] No, it wasn't even religious specific. In fact, a lot of my family members who I was engaging with in a very crude way. I don't even know what religion they were. Maybe Catholic, maybe something else. It didn't even really factor in. They were believers and I was going after them. So that was, you know, that was my. That was my. That was all I was doing at that point was just sort of fighting with people online.

John Dehlin [00:25:04] Was this pre 911 or post 9 11?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:25:07] This was post 9 11.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] Because you mentioned Dawkins and Hitchens and Harris and Dennett and those guys. And you know those four horsemen of the apocalypse, they kind of came out of the Twin Towers and Pentagon disasters.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:25:23] Yeah, well, it was that Dawkins, Dawkins book that I read, the God Delusion really inspired me to want to do something. So that's when I just clumsily started using counter apologetics. So somebody says that this is true and then you would look for a verse in their holy Book to show how ridiculous their views are or something. And then when you start noticing that your relationships are falling apart because of that, you know, and then you hear that there might be a better way of talking with people, then I was really drawn to the street epistemology approach. I don't want to argue with you, but ask you questions. And that was really cool. So I started going out in public, doing it with street preachers, and then just regular people and then going to college campuses and that type of thing.

John Dehlin [00:26:05] Did the term street epistemology exist before you kind of coined it? Did you coin the term?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:10] No, no, I didn't coin it.

John Dehlin [00:26:11] Is there a tradition?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:12] It actually originated in a book called A Manual for Creating Atheists. Have you heard of this book?

Guest 6 [00:26:18] It's only my favorite.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:19] Is that Boghossian, Peter Boghossian wrote the book in 2013, and I read that book. I was actually at a conference in Oregon for the Freedom 2000.

John Dehlin [00:26:28] What?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:28] 2013.

John Dehlin [00:26:29] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:30] What did I say?

John Dehlin [00:26:31] No, that's good.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:33] 12 years. That's 12 years after nine. 11, right. Quite a long time.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:37] Yeah. He kind of missed the window on being a horseman, I guess, for whatever that's worth. But so now I read his book, and that really, it really appealed to me because I wanted to have better talks with people, yet still challenge them on their views. And this book was purporting that this is a better way of doing that. So I was all in.

John Dehlin [00:26:56] So he used that term street epistemology in the book Manual for Creating Atheists.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:02] I think the term is in the book.

John Dehlin [00:27:05] And that was the first time you had stumbled on the term.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:09] Exactly. I knew the word street, but I'd never heard of epistemology before. Who knows what epistemology is?

John Dehlin [00:27:16] Ex Mormons do.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:17] They probably do, yeah.

Guest 6 [00:27:19] Do you want to define epistemology as well?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:21] Sure. Well, the official word of it, the term of it, is the theory of knowledge or the study of knowledge. But when we're using street epistemology, I'm not exploring what you know. We're exploring how you concluded that you think that you know it and it's a different animal. So the name is actually somewhat problematic in a lot of different ways. But that was my first time encountering that word.

John Dehlin [00:27:43] I, I sometimes my shorthand explanation is just how we know stuff.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] How we know stuff.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:49] Right.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:49] Right.

John Dehlin [00:27:50] Okay.

Guest 6 [00:27:51] You say how you prop up your beliefs. Is that another good way to put it?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:54] Like what?

Guest 6 [00:27:55] Props up your beliefs?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:55] The foundation that your beliefs. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:57] Well, that might be a little Bit people might take offense, maybe prop up. Prop up. Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:28:02] Well, I do actually like viewing beliefs as a structure or a Jenga tower of sorts. You know, because you have your core belief up here, and then you have your reasons, and then maybe down here, you have, ideally, the method that you use to test your reasons to be sure that what you think is true is true. That's kind of the model that we've come up with to explain what street epistemology is. A lot of people discover that they don't have a method. They were raised with this belief, or they get a good feeling from the belief and never really set out to figure out that it was true or not. A lot of people just don't even consider that type of stuff.

Guest 6 [00:28:34] Yeah, I like how you said Jenga tower. I think that's really helpful for ex Mormons, because so much of what we were constantly in church every Sunday bearing our testimony. We always are told that we'll gain a testimony by bearing it. And then suddenly you find yourself at, like, 30 years old being confronted with, like, the CES letter, and you're like, did I really know that the whole time? Okay, what about the spirit that I. That will overcome all that? Like, any uncomfortable history that I find? Okay. That's more like elevated emotion. Okay. And so you start looking at each Jenga piece, taking it out, examining it, and you're like, okay, actually, this foundation of what I was propping up, like you said at the top, that tower is not what I thought it was. And piece by piece, and sometimes it takes, you know, a decade for some people to leave the church, and it takes one Jenga piece at a time. They want to look at all of them. Other people, they read the CS letter in one night, and they realized the

Anthony Magnabosco [00:29:21] foundation wasn't sound exactly very well. Yeah, I totally. I love looking at beliefs in that way. And what we've. We're also noticing is that while you can inspect your own beliefs, you can inspect your own Jenga tower of beliefs. It seems better if you allow somebody to go on that exploration with you, which is what we try to do in se. In street epistemology. Right. Like, I want to work with you to figure out how you concluded that what you think is true is true. And we do that with us asking. Well, with me asking questions. And that seems to result in a much deeper dive, a much clearer view into how they're propping up their belief

John Dehlin [00:30:02] in the first place before we dive into that. So you graduated from high school around what year?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:11] I was class of 88.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] Okay, so you're a year younger than me.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:14] I think so, yeah. That's okay, I say.

John Dehlin [00:30:16] And did you go to college?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] What'd you do after high school?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:20] After high school? After high school, I spent a year in Istanbul, Turkey, as an exchange student. Whoa.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] That's kind of cool.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:27] Was 18 years old and traveling all over that city. It was amazing. And also seeing a lot of people who believed in a different religion and they were fervent believers in it.

John Dehlin [00:30:36] Islam.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:37] Islam, yeah. So all this stuff is crystallizing as I'm getting older and you start realizing how people are thinking about this stuff. And then I went to college.

John Dehlin [00:30:45] Why did you choose Istanbul?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:48] It's a long story. I'll shorten it. And it's kind of funny, but I stumbled across the Rotary Club. I think they had sent an exchange student to our high school from, I don't know, some country. And I was really intrigued by the ideas of doing basically repeating my senior year of high school in a different country. And the form that we were given to fill out had a list of 80 countries. And they said, just put them in numerical order with which ones you want to go to. So by the time I got to my fourth or fifth choice, I just put numbers by all the rest because I figured, of course I'm going to get my top 10. Right. And it turned out that Turkey was my 17th choice and I was the only one to list it so high. So I ended up falling through and going there and spent the whole year Turkey.

John Dehlin [00:31:37] I love the story of how kind of like the Arab world was kind of like led civilization for. For several centuries before they were ahead of the time. Right. Mathematics. And. Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:31:51] Many stars, I think are named, have Arabic sounding names. Arabic names, Is that right? I think so.

John Dehlin [00:31:56] Did that influence you to see that a civilization could maybe take some steps backwards? Did that even.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:03] You know, I was 18 at the time. I think I was more important, you know, it was more focused on just traveling across the city and finding McDonald's, you know, that type of thing. Because I didn't really like the food there.

John Dehlin [00:32:14] Oh, you didn't. It's like PETA and hummus and, you

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:17] know, actually they had some really good street food. Yeah, okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:20] That's where the street comes in for

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:23] the street epistemology, maybe. So maybe that's where it originated from.

Guest 6 [00:32:25] Born on the streets.

John Dehlin [00:32:28] Okay, so did you. After you leave Turkey, what'd you do?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:32] Left Turkey. Went two years to a community college near my house and then in South Side, south side of Chicago.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:39] Right. And then I went to Western Illinois University. It's about four hours away from my house. It's in Macomb, Illinois. It's, like on the border of Illinois and Iowa.

John Dehlin [00:32:48] Were you a White Sox fan then?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:52] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:53] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:53] Not a Cubs fan.

Guest 6 [00:32:54] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:54] Now you were probably a Cubs fan, being Northside like that.

John Dehlin [00:32:57] No, I grew up in Houston, so I was an Astros fan.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:33:02] Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then after that, I got Me. I went. I got a job after graduating college.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] Study.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:33:10] What'd you study? I studied Eastern Illinois. I studied logistics and physical distribution. What? Transportation. And then I got a minor in information systems.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] What were you wanting to do with that?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:33:26] Well, that's a great question. I think I just wanted to get a decent job with a carrier or a manufacturer, and I ended up getting a really good job with a chemical company and traveled and it was awesome. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] Okay. And so where were you in life and in your career and in your family when you started, like, when you. When you read Boghossian's book and you started to think about wanting to do this more seriously, where was I?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:33:59] Well, I think so. My kids were probably pretty. A little bit younger, but asking the big questions.

John Dehlin [00:34:05] And you were in San Antonio by

Anthony Magnabosco [00:34:07] this point, I'm in Texas, and the kids are coming home saying that, wondering if they believed in God or if we believed in God. And the teacher was saying something about this or that, or my classmate told me that I would be going to hell or something if I didn't believe. So it started dawning on me, like, well, what did we want to teach the kids? And then I started coming across atheist content. And then I discovered. Then I signed up for Freedom from Religion foundation. And I was at their conference where I met Boghossian, who was giving the talk and promoting this book.

John Dehlin [00:34:37] Do you remember around what year?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:34:39] I think that was? 2013.

John Dehlin [00:34:40] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:34:41] Yeah. So 2013. Read the book. And then I. I said, there are no examples of people doing this method. How can I learn how to do this if there are no examples? So.

John Dehlin [00:34:52] And I gotta go. You've already answered this. Forgive me. So was there someone who developed street epistemology? Is there a name that we can tie to it before Boghossian? Like a famous Socrates? Okay, but then probably. Who coined the term Pre Bogosian? Is there a book on it?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:11] No, no. Street epistemology. That term was coined in that book, Emmanuel, for creating it.

John Dehlin [00:35:16] Really?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:17] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:17] He was just on the first page or something.

John Dehlin [00:35:20] It was basically. He's basically Just saying, hey, Socratic method may be more effective than interrogation. And I'm going to call it street epistemology, because it's basically a way to find out why people believe what they believe.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:32] It turned out that he is or was a philosophy professor, who of course, still.

John Dehlin [00:35:36] Oregon, Right. Portland State or something.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:37] Portland State. So doing philosophy there heavily into atheism. And I think he had a very close family member who was also a therapist working with addicts, drug addicts. And I think he put all that together and started realizing, oh, wow, we can actually use this approach to explore belief claims.

John Dehlin [00:35:55] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:56] Much in the same way we might explore somebody's addiction or. Or a behavior maybe that they want to cease.

John Dehlin [00:36:04] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:04] Type of thing.

John Dehlin [00:36:05] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:06] Okay. So around 2012, 2013.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] You are pretty advanced in your. Okay, how many children do you have by this point?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:14] Two kids. Still have two kids.

John Dehlin [00:36:16] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:17] So, yeah, they were. They were rather young.

John Dehlin [00:36:18] And you were still doing this job with the chemical company in San Antonio.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:23] So. Okay. So. Well, okay, we're skipping lots of years here. So after the chemical company, then I shifted into consulting. I was working for a supply chain software consulting company and traveling all over the country, all over the world. That was a little tough being gone, leaving on Monday, coming back on Thursday, and then the kids not recognizing you when you come home from work. So then I got a job locally, started my own business of iPhone. Ipod repair business.

John Dehlin [00:36:54] Really?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:54] It was really fun and cool.

John Dehlin [00:36:55] Like crack screens and stuff.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:56] Yeah, yeah. Back when you could actually get the parts and then build a decent wage and still make a little bit of money. But it became too much of a challenge. And then I wanted to do something with regards to this activism and atheism. And there were nobody, as far as I can tell, uploading examples of people doing street epistemology. So other than the examples that were in the book that were just maybe half of a page, people may have been talking about their conversations, but I think I was probably the first one to actually start recording exchanges and then putting them on YouTube and calling them street epistemology, which is really kind of a far cry from doing street epistemology, because I still didn't quite know what I was doing. I was still arguing with street preachers and people and that type of thing.

John Dehlin [00:37:45] So I'm thinking back to the day that I learned that podcasts existed. This is 2005. And then I'm like, how do I do that? And then I like, go buy a microphone. And then I like, how do you up. How do you make an MP3 and upload it. You know what I mean? I'm thinking back, so I'm channeling. I'm trying to get. I'm getting in the space where you're like, okay, I read Bogosian's book, and I want to pursue this. So take us on that journey of, like, what was your first step in kind of going down this path? How did. How did it start?

Taking SE to the Street and Building a YouTube Channel

Anthony Magnabosco [00:38:19] I think it started with me recognizing that there weren't a lot of examples of people doing this approach. And I wanted to do. So I got a camera, I bought a whiteboard and some markers and that type of thing and thought, well, I want to talk to religious people. Where can I reliably find them? And I thought, well, let me just go down to the Alamo, Because I think I'd stumbled across one time when I went to visit it or something that the street preachers usually gather there on the weekends. And in fact, I think I even went a couple times without my cameras, just recording and just listening to what they had to say and taking notes and that type of thing, which, in hindsight, you really didn't have to do. But, yeah, I started off with that, and then it just kind of grew from there. But I got to tell you, the growth that really happened was when I started putting the conversations on my YouTube channel and sharing them in a Facebook group with people who were also interested in street epistemology, who would give me feedback and give me suggestions on how to improve. That was really huge.

John Dehlin [00:39:22] Where was the first place you went?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:39:25] The first place I went was in front of the Alamo talking to people. But it's so noisy and chaotic there. And usually the people that are there to preach are there to preach. They're not there to reflect. It dawned on me, oh, I should probably find a different location. So I started going to trails and campuses, universities in my town. Basically just any place that I can drive to, you know, get out and set up really quick and break down really quick.

John Dehlin [00:39:51] And when you had to. So I married. I imagine you're. You're. So you're married, right? Yeah. I don't want to make any assumptions about your partner, so I'll just say your partner. So I'm trying to imagine that conversation where you're like, hey, honey, I'm going out. I got a camera, and I'm going out to ask a bunch of people questions about their beliefs at the Alamo and other. What was that? And, like, what was that conversation like? How did you explain it? Because there are a lot of things, you know, I know it's like to be a dad, you know, there's a lot of things you could be doing.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:40:24] A lot.

John Dehlin [00:40:24] Big old honeydew list.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:40:25] Oh, sure.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] How do you explain that to your spouse that probably has things that they'd rather you be doing? And then I'm also really curious to know what your vision was of how you saw this playing out, you know, and if you had any idea of how it would play out. How did it start?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:40:39] These are good questions. So with regards to my spouse, we. I don't remember the exact details, but I do remember her being very concerned about what I was attempting to do. So I think I had actually done it once and then put some videos on YouTube and showed her one. And it was just a horrible example where it was combative.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] Are these videos still up? The early ones?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:41:02] They're still on my channel, but they're unlisted. But they're in a playlist that is public, so you can find them.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] So Kara will ask if you can.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:41:07] You can find them. Oh, I've got some horrible ones out there.

John Dehlin [00:41:10] They're so cringey. Bad examples.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:41:12] So I think she watched a very bad example of me arguing with a street preacher. And then the next time I said, I'd really like to go out and do this again, she insisted that I hire somebody to be a bodyguard off to the side. This is a true story. And I literally did that. So I called somebody and found somebody for, like, the next two weekends or three weekends, I had somebody there. But right around that time, I was realizing, well, I don't want to be arguing with them. That's not what I'm out here to do. But it was hard to get past that hump because that's all that I knew how to do. And it was to argue, debate, was to argue and debate, which elicited that very combative response back from them. So as I started realizing that I don't have to do that and it's better to use the nicer approach, the SE approach, it became evident that I didn't need that stuff. I didn't need a backup. So that kind of all fell the wayside. I think the videos today speak for themselves. If you look at an old example, that actually would be kind of funny to maybe show or play, like a really old one compared to a new one. It's night and day difference.

John Dehlin [00:42:14] Maybe we'll have. We'll have Carrie find a couple examples and splice them in. She likes to edit. Maybe so, yeah, and I know this is going to sound repetitive, but like, I'm trying to imagine that conversation where your wife says, honey, why are you doing this? What would you have said?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:42:30] I think I would. I think I would have said, I'm really worried what's happening with religion and people in this country and the influence that it's having on our culture. I think that would have been my answer then and it probably still is my answer today. Although now I'm more aware of the harm that these religious beliefs cause. Like that has probably even superseded it now that I think about it.

John Dehlin [00:42:52] So she had said, no, wait, religion. It's just these nice little churches people go to and they raise their kids and they learn to be a good person. Why is that so damaging?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:43:01] Yeah, why do you care? That is kind of a response that I would get from some people, even my close family members. Why do you. Why do you care enough to do this?

John Dehlin [00:43:09] Well, where's the harm?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:43:12] That was probably my answer. Well, what's the harm? I'm not doing it. Or what's the harm of doing it?

John Dehlin [00:43:17] That's also important.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:43:18] Yeah, I guess that's a tough question. What was motivating me to do it? I think I wanted, initially I wanted to show examples of this technique in action. Whether it worked or not. It was almost kind of like a proof of concept. Does this thing do what the author purports that it can do? And when I first started off, I wasn't really quite using it. Right. But as I started using it, it was evident that there was something to it and that became motivating. People were eager to see me and have more talks as opposed to being combative with me. And I was even seeing people reflecting on their views and even lowering their confidence to the point of getting rid of the beliefs. So that was a huge wake up call. Like there might be something to this technique that could be useful for people, not just for atheists who are talking to theists, but for everybody about all these deeply held beliefs that we have.

John Dehlin [00:44:10] And I don't know, you may be uncomfortable even going here, but if you were, you know, I could enumerate some of the potential harms that might have been disturbing you. You know, there's abuse of children and people, there's money that's being paid, there's people basing their lives on magical thinking. There's wars, violence, misogyny, racism, sexism, homophobia. Is that kind of starting to capture some of the things that might have motivated you, or are there others that you would add or that were even more important.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:44:45] I think it was primarily the harm that the religions were causing people. But I was becoming increasingly aware of that because I was entering a community of people, atheists, who were also learning this technique, this rebuttal technique of street episode epistemology. And along with it, they were sharing their stories, their horror stories, and the trauma that they were even still experiencing today.

John Dehlin [00:45:08] Ex religious people.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:45:09] Yeah, yeah, for sure. So then that motivates you even more. But it's weird because that was motivating me to see the necessity maybe, of using this approach with people who hold such views. But then you also start realizing that you can use street epistemology approach for other claims too, that it's broader than just this one narrow niche. That's very important to me. And that inspired me, like, how can we get these tools? How can we make them simpler to understand, for one thing, and see more examples of people using it and trying to develop it even further? That was just a big part of it for me.

John Dehlin [00:45:48] So you get the camera, you tell your wife you're going out, and you start doing these things. At first, the videos don't go so well and you realize you don't want to be combative, and so you start honing the craft a little bit.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:46:02] Right.

John Dehlin [00:46:02] And were you posting the videos to YouTube each time? Were you thinking about this becoming like a social media movement at the time?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:46:11] Okay, yeah, I'm glad we came back to that, because I wanted to speak to that. So after I read Boghossian's book and I decided to go out and start doing talks, I remember as I was walking out for the very first time, turning the camera around on myself and saying, okay, here I am. I'm trying this thing called street epistemology, and I hope it does what it says. Like, if this thing catches on, it's going to be really big. I think from the beginning I was optimistic that there was something to it. So I think I was biased in favor of it working and being effective. And maybe that in a way made me determined to make it effective in some way or put more effort into it, because it seemed like if there really is something to this, this is huge. So I didn't. I think after I read the book, I was convinced that it was a better approach than what I had been using. And even though I was doing a poor version of it at the start, there were still glimmers of. Of something to it. So I think early on I always suspected that it could be a big Thing, and it seems like it has, and it's really kind of blossomed, and now here we are sitting and talking.

John Dehlin [00:47:21] So at some point you're just making some short videos, but then at some point you're creating a channel. Was YouTube your first method of distribution?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:47:28] It was my very first method. Converting the videos into audio and putting them on a podcast didn't happen until two years into it. I wasn't really thinking of marketing it or growing it. It just sort of was a thing of, let me just put my conversations out there. But when you start reading the comments that people leave on your videos and giving you tips or wondering why you said this or criticizing you about something that you said or did, I early on decided that I was going to try to read almost every comment because a lot of people turn off their comments or they don't read the comments or people, oh, never read the comments. I read them and I, you know, I was very. Did you respond many times?

John Dehlin [00:48:06] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:48:07] But most of the comments were very useful and. And helpful. Yeah, I guess that's the same word. They were extremely helpful. They. They helped me realize where I needed to improve on possibly some. Some of it was garbage, but it also helped to toughen my skin, too.

John Dehlin [00:48:23] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:48:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:24] That's so interesting. Okay, so you're. You're. That. That sounds like tribe building or community building, because you're. You're posting these videos up on YouTube. At first it's just to have them posted somewhere, but then you're slowly starting to get feedback and you're honing your craft, getting almost some crowdsourced feedback, and then you're slowly starting to gain a little bit of a following.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:48:46] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:48:47] So you're building a community. Did you have a way to communicate with the community other than through comments on YouTube? Like, you know, I guess now there's discord, but, like, back then, discord's huge.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:48:57] Now in the five years or so ago, it was a Facebook group, and it's still out there. It's a street epistemology study group. There's probably 6,000 people in the group.

John Dehlin [00:49:06] So you started a Facebook group to accompany the YouTube videos?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:49:09] Somebody else actually started it.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] Oh.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:49:11] So I was there. Oh, There's a whole 100 people in this group. How cool. What is the street epistemology?

John Dehlin [00:49:16] They started it kind of without your consent.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:49:18] It was. It's not my thing. I stumbled across. I. Okay, somebody created this group, and I was excited to be a part of it. And I became an administrator, started uploading videos, and then I noticed Other people were uploading videos too. And it started this kind of groundswell of people from around the world initiating talks, putting their videos on YouTube and what was.

John Dehlin [00:49:40] Would you upload to your channel?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:49:42] Or they were just uploading to their channels, but we would notice those same tags and those same titles. Oh.

John Dehlin [00:49:49] So in the community, it wouldn't just be you posting your videos, other people started posting theirs. And there'd be these extensive conversations of everybody analyzing everybody's videos.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:49:58] Pretty much. Pretty much to like. The last year I started doing it, I was going out. So this has evolved over the years. For myself personally, when I first went out, it was one camera. Camera.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:50:09] I noticed the last year there's three camera angles. How are you doing that live? Broadcasting the audio to Discord so people can listen in real time.

John Dehlin [00:50:16] Live.

Guest 6 [00:50:17] What?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:50:18] Yeah, well, people wanted to see what is happening. In the meantime, how hard is it for you to find somebody to stop and talk with you? Or why are you only posting that video? Where are your other videos? It was in many ways to appease some of the skepticism about what people were seeing, because I don't think a lot of people maybe believed that you can have such a good talk with a stranger in a short amount of time. It's. It's a novelty. It was a novelty. Maybe it even still is, to see stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:50:48] How do you. Do you have multiple camera operators or.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:50:51] No, no, I just go. I have three GoPros and I just play some. I hit record. And then.

John Dehlin [00:50:55] And then you do you edit? Post production?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:50:57] I edit, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:58] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:50:58] Okay. I hate video editing.

John Dehlin [00:50:59] Oh, I. I don't do it.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:51:00] I despise it.

John Dehlin [00:51:01] Yeah. That's why I do long form, because I. It's not sustainable for me.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:51:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:05] Okay. So as this is growing, when does it go from just you posting some videos and having this Facebook group to where you start getting broader recognition?

Growth of the Channel and the Broader SE Community

Anthony Magnabosco [00:51:15] Well, early on.

John Dehlin [00:51:17] How did it grow?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:51:17] We had some allies, I suppose, in the atheist community where they were posting some of our videos. I remember Richard Dawkins foundation had a page on Facebook. They might even still do, and they shared one of my videos. I don't even know how it originated. Who. If somebody stumbled across it or what. And a thousand comments underneath the video, and almost all of them were, this is horrible. What is he doing? This is. This is evangelism for atheism. I was shocked. I was shocked at the response from atheists who were observing the se thing, which today, I don't think that stigma is there. I think we've Been working hard enough on it to explain it, what we're doing. Where the majority of atheists, I think understand what's happening here and they don't see it as the equivalent of a street preacher yelling at people. Hopefully that's not the case. You still have a few holdouts. There's still a few people are like, what are you guys doing?

John Dehlin [00:52:19] Was that the first time you kind of really got a big, big eyeballs.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:52:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:24] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:52:24] Yeah, I had, oh wow, 500 views on my video. That was a really big moment. It's not a lot today.

John Dehlin [00:52:30] So for years there were just. You had hundreds of views.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:52:33] Yeah, for years it just hobbled along. I know Hemet meta every year or so. I know Hemet Hammond's a great person.

John Dehlin [00:52:38] Yeah, I love that guy.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:52:40] Love him.

John Dehlin [00:52:41] He would friendly atheist.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:52:42] He would share videos.

John Dehlin [00:52:43] Will you add that to the show notes, Kara?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:52:45] So if I had a good conversation that stood out and stood some way, I would message him like, hey, you know, check this out. What do you think?

John Dehlin [00:52:51] You met him at one of the conferences.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:52:53] He ended up coming to San Antonio, speaking right about the time that I was getting into se.

John Dehlin [00:52:57] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:52:58] At what it was a group called Fact Free Thinkers and Atheists of Central Texas. I think it's something like that. I don't think that that's exactly.

John Dehlin [00:53:09] He's kind of an atheist celebrity, right?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:53:11] He is, yeah. Yeah. So I was just tickled and you know, you notice your subscriber count jump and you notice people coming to the

John Dehlin [00:53:17] group more because he gave you a shout out.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:53:20] Yeah, he made a little post on his, on his blog.

John Dehlin [00:53:22] Is he still blogging? Is he still doing his thing?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:53:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:25] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:53:25] Yeah, he's still prolific and other atheists were coming into these SC communities and learning how to do it and stumbling forward along with me. You know, we were all sort of learning this process and I think we've refined it drastically since those early days.

John Dehlin [00:53:43] Did you start putting together like a manual of how to do it? Like instructions, like to do's and not to do's, or like instruction videos? I've seen some instruction videos.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:53:52] There's a real hunger for that. So we ended up creating what we called the Street Epistemology Guide, which is on the se. The Street Epistemology YouTube channel. Oh, sorry, the Street Epistemology website under resources.

John Dehlin [00:54:04] It's a PDF.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:54:04] It's a PDF. It'S a little bit dated now.

John Dehlin [00:54:06] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:54:07] We're in the process now of designing a whole new self directed course on it. But back then it was this PDF, which is, I don't know, 40 pages long. And then I started uploading some, I would call them tutorial videos where I wanted to actually teach people how to do this. And I just sat on my front lawn and put a camera on and just started talking and breaking down a video, like, talking about a conversation that I had and why I was doing it in that way.

John Dehlin [00:54:34] So you started training other people.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:54:36] I wanted to teach people. I still want to teach people how to do this.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] Fun.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:54:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:41] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:54:41] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:43] So you create the manual. You start creating some training videos and training other people.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:54:47] Right.

John Dehlin [00:54:47] And then were there any other really big kind of moments that really drove a lot, drove your subscriber base forward? Did you ever get, like, featured on TV or, like, an important podcast? Did you ever get to meet Dawkins or Hitchens or Harris?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:55:01] Actually, I had. Did Joe Rogan ever have you on, like, Joe Rogan? But he is in Austin and I am in San Antonio, so maybe one day. But I ended up going and meeting Dawkins for dinner. He was coming through Austin once you met him? Yeah, we had dinner. It was one of Those, you pay $500 for a plate, and it was a birthday present for me or something from my family. And I remember this was early on. This is when I was still arguing with street preachers, but I was trying to do street epistemology, and I was talking to Dawkins and I was explaining what I do that I'm trying to do this thing from Boghossian called street epistemology. And I'm going out and talking to street preachers, but it's not really going so well. Well, I'm still arguing with them, but I'm really trying to do better. And he got really excited and waved one of his handlers over, and he said, this man harasses street preachers. He was really excited. I said, well, it's not exactly that. And I spent a good five or ten minutes telling him what we do. And I didn't really know what to expect. But I noticed he started following me on Twitter a week or so after that and has been since, so. But it's interesting. I don't see people of that caliber using this approach much. They tend to still do the arguing and the debating.

John Dehlin [00:56:19] It makes better eyeballs.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:56:22] It's entertaining. It's probably more entertaining to see a hostile debate going on, but it's a little disappointing that maybe people that see the value of it don't speak to the value of it for whatever reason. I'm not Sure. I don't hold any. You know, they can do whatever they want. But it's always been kind of a

John Dehlin [00:56:38] mystery to me why I'm thinking of that. That variety show or whatever where, like, Brandon Flowers from the Killers is being interviewed by. I think it was Dawkins. And that was kind of. Really. It's kind of famous. It was kind of famous in our world because I think Dawkins kind of body slams him. And, you know. And Carrie, you're nodding. Do you remember that?

Guest 6 [00:56:59] Yeah, yeah. Brendan Flowers got really uncomfortable and he's just, you know, like, that's your opinion, man. That kind of attitude.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:57:06] This is about evolution. And.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] Yeah.

Guest 6 [00:57:08] Mormonism, Dawkins calling, like, Joseph Smith was a fraud. Like, how can anyone believe this?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:57:16] And that. That kind of.

John Dehlin [00:57:18] And it made good. It made good rounds, of course.

Guest 6 [00:57:19] Right.

John Dehlin [00:57:20] Theater makes good rounds.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:57:21] I love that stuff, too. When I was. When I was observing it. The problem is that people who observe it attempt to mimic it with their loved ones. Well, that's where the problems can happen.

John Dehlin [00:57:32] Brandon Flowers is still a believer. Like, I'm. I am. You know, we have mutual friends, and he's still an orthodox, probably. I mean, you're embarrassed on global television about your chair, deeply held, cherished beliefs, and you have close family and friends that are. That's probably going to create the backfire effect where you cling even more tightly.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:57:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:52] Versus if you're treated respectfully and thoughtfully. So I really like what you're saying, that some of the people that maybe value street epistemology in their opportunities for public exposure don't seize it. And sometimes maybe to the detriment of the cause.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:58:09] I think so. I think that's possible. Yeah. I think that that approach could really set us back. And it probably has set us back.

John Dehlin [00:58:17] Yeah. Because atheism, the new atheism, got a really bad rap, right?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:58:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:21] Like, basically turned off a lot of people.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:58:24] It did. Because of that aggressive approach. I mean, there are literally videos, I think, of Dawkins maybe at a rally in D.C. saying something along the lines of, we need to ridicule people who hold these beliefs. I think now he may have switched it more to we need to ridicule beliefs and not people. I'm not exactly sure, but there's still that issue with people being very aggressive. And sometimes I wonder if maybe some people are just incapable of taking egos out of it and being calm when somebody says something that's wrong or insulting to you for the purpose of the conversation. Because you can learn street epistemology you can learn to ask questions. You can learn to be reflective and bounce things back and dig deeper and deeper to the foundation of that Jenga tower like we talked about. But if you don't have the right mindset for it, if you can't control your anger and all this other stuff, you're going to really struggle with it. Because SE is far more than just asking really good questions. It's establishing that relationship and trust and the collaborative mindset of working together to get down to the bottom of what's propping it up. And if you don't have that, if my conversation partner is uneasy to the point where they're being guarded, it's going to be a problem. And maybe there are just some people that just. They struggle with and they can't. It's a personality trait that they can't overcome. But the thing that I do like is that there are people who will admit that that's the case with them, but they still see the value in what we're doing with se.

John Dehlin [01:00:02] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:00:02] And they want to support us.

John Dehlin [01:00:03] That's good.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:00:04] And that's great. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:05] And I'm going to just apologize ahead of time. Kara really wants to get into the actual street of people epistemology. I. Because I've. Because I've. I don't meet a lot of people. I don't get to talk to a lot of people who have built platforms and have built movements. So I'm as interested in that as I am in street epistemology. So she's going to hate me later, but I'm going to keep on this.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:00:27] Please do. Because I love the detail that you're going into because I don't think I've ever gotten so granular on this stuff. And that's awesome.

John Dehlin [01:00:35] And we have, we do have tomorrow.

Guest 6 [01:00:36] Carrie, I. I'm just thinking back to when I was obsessed in watching all of your videos. And I would have loved to click on a long format Mormon stories type interview with Anthony Magnabosco. So this is for me, like, you know, a couple years ago when I was diving into this stuff. So I'm sure that's going to be popular with people on YouTube who want to hear who the guy is, you know, get into the real story, how, how you built this, where you came from. So I'm. I don't hate you, John.

John Dehlin [01:00:58] Okay.

Guest 6 [01:00:59] Never would.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:00] We're building up to it, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:01:01] So as you're. As this starts really taking off, you start getting mentions and links from other people. And as you're trying to keep your day job, which I assume you, you, you still have your day job even now, is that right or not or no?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:17] Actually, I've been a stay at home dad since 2012 when I shut my, my repair business down.

John Dehlin [01:01:22] Really? Okay, so when this was really taken off, you were a stay at home dad.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:27] That's right. So I had a lot of time on the side to be able to edit videos and go out and record a couple talks and maybe do a presentation.

John Dehlin [01:01:35] I had no idea.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:36] I'm very fortunate.

John Dehlin [01:01:37] Okay, so when this took off, you were a stay at home dad?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:40] Okay, so. Okay, then I have a different. And care is going to relate to this because Kara is kind of. I don't want to speak for you, but Kara's trying to figure out how to balance being a former stay at home mom would now be a working mom, but a part time stay at home mom and having a husband that's a stay at home dad for now.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:57] Like, okay, so as this is taking off and you're a stay at home dad and your, and your wife is working a lot and it's, you start to have to, you know, you're reading people's responses on YouTube and you're seeing that people are blogging and you're probably getting emails and reading all the Facebook

Anthony Magnabosco [01:02:12] pairing talks and getting interviews.

John Dehlin [01:02:14] How in the world are you balancing this with raising kids and keeping your spouse happy and all the to dos that that you've got?

Guest 6 [01:02:22] How many kids do you have and how old were they?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:02:24] I mean you don't have. Hopefully they are happy. Happy and.

John Dehlin [01:02:26] Right.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:02:27] That's all turned out. I mean I've, I do try to like that is a very big priority for me for sure. My family is huge. However, like this is very big for me too because I see the, the, the, the, the potential of it. So it's been kind of tough balancing it all, to be honest.

John Dehlin [01:02:42] So it was hard. That's what I mean, that's what I'm trying to do. I didn't mean to say that you did a perfect job. It's more to say it must have been really hard to load balance. True.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:02:53] A little bit. It's really not that hard. I mean, okay. Because they would go to school, like I'd throw a load in the laundry and I sit down to edit a video. So like I was able to, you know, and to this day I'm folding clothes maybe while I'm listening to the replay of something that I, that I did.

John Dehlin [01:03:09] All right, so that's not familiar, Kara.

Guest 6 [01:03:11] I was just curious if you had like little kids at home, but they were in school and.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:03:15] Or back then they were in middle school, maybe just starting high school and now they're transitioning into college, which I think is going to free me up for more stuff like this.

John Dehlin [01:03:24] Okay. So, yeah, in Kara's case, I mean, in my case, my kids were definitely in middle school and high school, but I was the primary breadwinner. In Kara's case, her kids are still younger.

Guest 6 [01:03:35] So my kids are still taking crap out of the drawers every moment of the day and just my house is still chaos because my kids are still really young. So all this bouncing of, of trying to be part of something bigger, you know, and having all of your brain power kind of devoted to something that work doesn't shut off at a certain time. Like that's, that's kind of a hard, frustrating situation.

John Dehlin [01:03:53] Very.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:03:54] I can relate to that because even, even now there's, there's so many things that I want to do and sometimes I get mad at my situation because like I want to sit down and edit that video or talk to that person or whatever, but there's this mundane household tasks that needs to be done and I'm like, why am I doing laundry right now? I should be, you know, this is not the best use of my time. So it is frustrating, but I just deal with it. I guess I stay up late. I'm kind of a night owl also. I might be up till 1 o', clock, 2 o' clock in the morning doing some things.

John Dehlin [01:04:25] And yeah, there's also the intellectual and emotional expenditure. So there's one thing to have time, but sometimes debates and tension and conflict and there's probably haters out there that can, even if you've got time to, while you're folding the laundry, you know, to do stuff and all the other chores you probably did, there's still the emotional and the cognitive load because you still being a stay at home dad, I mean, if that's. It's got to be analogous to being a stay at home mom. And that's super brutal. So did you ever find it intellectually or emotionally draining to make it so it was harder to be the dead stay at home dad you wanted to

Anthony Magnabosco [01:05:05] be a little bit. So sometimes there might be a comment on a video that rattled me or maybe I actually had an interview that day where somebody said something that I was, I was taken aback because they shared something I would never imagine a stranger would share with another stranger, but they did. So I started Learning to try to, as best I could, to leave that stuff in the field and not take it home with me. But it was still difficult, too, to just put that on the back burner. So sometimes there were things where I was processing a challenge or a difficult situation or something that happened earlier in the day, and then you have this kind of mundane task right in front of you, and it's a little frustrating to not be able to put your mind to it and settle it before you can move on to the easier stuff. That was a little frustrating.

John Dehlin [01:05:52] Was there ever pressure for you to use your time and energy to provide additional income for the family, or was that just never a real pressure?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:06:00] Fortunately, my wife has a really good job, so. So it's.

John Dehlin [01:06:04] She covered. She had a cover.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:06:05] We got it covered.

John Dehlin [01:06:06] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:06:06] Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] So you haven't had to deal with intense financial pressures as a part of building or not. You did?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:06:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:13] Oh, I love that. Okay, good. That was a huge question I had about, like, fundraising and donors and.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:06:19] Yeah, it wasn't really an issue. If I need a new camera, you know, wait a couple months, save up some money, and go get it. It wasn't a big deal.

John Dehlin [01:06:24] Did you put up a PayPal button or, you know, did you ever start soliciting donations from listeners?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:06:30] I never did. Although within the last year or so. So two years ago, we started a nonprofit organization called.

John Dehlin [01:06:38] Why did you start that?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:06:39] Because we wanted to get funding for people to study what we're doing to see if it works. Is it harming people?

John Dehlin [01:06:45] And when you say we, who's we?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:06:47] Other people who are interested in street epistemology.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] You just got, like, a posse of.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:06:50] There's a posse of just.

John Dehlin [01:06:53] There's a world Apostles.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:06:54] There's a worldwide other 12 apostles. There's way more than 12.

Guest 6 [01:06:58] I can tell you, if I wasn't doing this, I'd be in that posse, like, hardcore. I used to be in a lot more of those Facebook groups and on Reddit and stuff, reading all of that stuff, watching all the videos.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:07] We'd love to have you on one of the review shows that we do. If you're interested. We could do we do a breakdown. In fact, they're doing a breakdown video. I mentioned that somebody's reviewing one of my videos with the Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:07:16] Kara is delightful. She's funny, she's smart, she's witty. You'll love having her.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:20] Oh, yeah, for sure. That'd be cool.

John Dehlin [01:07:21] Yeah, she needs that. She'll. You'll. You'll be great.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:26] I feel like I Wanted to answer something more about that. What was the question?

John Dehlin [01:07:29] So you've got this posse, your team of a lot of people. Do you have, like, a core kind of group of, like, leaders or.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:37] Well, I mean, we started the nonprofit in, like, two years ago. So there's a core group. There's. There's a board of directors, and we're bringing other people on. And then there's a.

John Dehlin [01:07:46] Called.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:47] It's called Street Epistemology International.

John Dehlin [01:07:49] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:50] So because this isn't just a us thing. It's. It's worldwide. And there are. There's a hardcore group of people, I guess, who usually haunt some of the different online SE communities. You know, you go to Discord, and they always seem to be there, that type of thing, which is good because there's always new people filtering in, and there's. It's nice to have some, Some people to kind of guide them through.

John Dehlin [01:08:14] What made you incorporate Discord when Facebook was serving your needs? I, I, we don't even use Discord on Mormon stories, and it's probably huge oversight. I think Midnight Mormons even use Discord. Like, what made you incorporate Discord and how is it used?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:08:28] I think somebody just started. It was very, very similar to the Facebook groups. Somebody created a page or a group

John Dehlin [01:08:35] on Discord called Treat Epistemology.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:08:37] They created a server called Street Epistemology. I joined it.

John Dehlin [01:08:39] They didn't ask your permission. They're like, I'm doing it.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:08:41] You don't need my permission. I don't, I don't own the term or anything like that. This. This came up in the book back in 2013, and we've just been running with it, so. So, yeah, they started the group, I joined it. They asked me if I wanted to be a moderator. I'm like, no way. You guys do whatever you need to do. But it was cool because I was seeing functionality on that platform that worked really good. Like, I could put an AirPod in my ear and stream the audio while people from around the world were listening in on that Discord server. That is something that you really can't do on Facebook, as far as I'm aware.

John Dehlin [01:09:12] So streaming audio to a live audience, it's kind of like YouTube or Facebook Live, but audio only, which is actually

Anthony Magnabosco [01:09:19] a step back from what I was doing a year before Discord. I was going out and doing Periscope with my cell phone. So I was, I was actually.

John Dehlin [01:09:27] I remember Periscope.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:09:28] Remember that?

John Dehlin [01:09:28] That's Twitter, right?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:09:29] Yeah, Twitter bought it, I think. So I was like, live streaming the Video to my to Periscope while simultaneously recording it on my GoPro. And that was kind of cool for a while, but it was so tech heavy. It was just easier to stream the audio to Discord and then just keep my camera going.

John Dehlin [01:09:47] Care, have you ever been into Discord?

Guest 6 [01:09:49] I tried and I needed to watch a tutorial on it or something. I'm pretty intuitive those things.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:09:55] I've been on it for three years and I still don't like the navigation on it. It's of kind. Goofy. Yeah, it's weird.

John Dehlin [01:10:01] Does your server have like a number of subscribers?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:05] Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [01:10:07] Is it like a thousand? 110,000?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:09] Like it's not 110. No, there's maybe 5,000 there.

John Dehlin [01:10:13] 5,000?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:14] Something like that.

John Dehlin [01:10:14] That's a great, that's a great base.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:16] It's pretty good. There's a Reddit page for street epistemology that has 11,000, 12,000 people.

John Dehlin [01:10:22] We'll have links, we'll have links to all that.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:24] Yeah, we've got a link link tree link that has links to everything. So we could just give you one link and.

John Dehlin [01:10:28] Yeah, okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:30] Link tree and then street epistemology, I think.

John Dehlin [01:10:32] Okay, so you would. So as you're. When you're going out, it's like, hey, everyone, I'm going out Friday at 10 o'. Clock.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:38] Right.

John Dehlin [01:10:39] And I'll be. Do you live stream? You don't, you don't ever live stream because you've got multiple cameras and you have to do the editing and post production.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:46] I would live stream the audio and I have three cameras going.

John Dehlin [01:10:49] But prior to that, people just sit and listen.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:51] To like people coming and people coming and people coming.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:54] Because what would happen is as I'm live streaming, let's say I'm having a conversation, people would be listening and then typing what they were hearing like, oh, good question. Or, or she seems kind of weird. Or, you know, they would comment on whoever I'm speaking with and you probably

John Dehlin [01:11:07] can't observe the discard commentary while you're.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:11:11] Yeah, not, not in the moment. But as they were walking, as my interviewee was walking away, I'd pull up my phone and oh, okay, yeah, that was, you know, I could actually comment on what they were saying and that was.

John Dehlin [01:11:22] Okay, so while you're waiting for people between people, you would go check, you check Discord and see what the, what the communities say.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:11:29] And they could even unmute their microphones and talk to me too.

John Dehlin [01:11:33] Oh, and talk back and give you tips and suggestions and feedback.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:11:36] So they're Yeah, I got a lot quitting.

Guest 6 [01:11:38] I got to go on the Discord.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:11:39] It was great. There are still some people that do they do it with video now. There's a really cool channel called Cordial Curiosity.

John Dehlin [01:11:47] Well, I mean is. I'm just, I'm thinking about now it's YouTube and Facebook and we do something similar. We just live stream and then people comment on the video.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:11:56] Yeah, you might as well just stream the audio out to, to a Discord or something if you wanted to.

John Dehlin [01:12:00] Interesting. Yeah, interesting.

Guest 6 [01:12:03] See that's when DC and Marvel might

Anthony Magnabosco [01:12:06] be ahead of me. Get a good mic, get a good moderator because there's all that drama that happens and we made a decision. We didn't want our non profit organization to be involved in managing groups and that type of stuff. So we just let. Those are all fan managed platforms that we happen to stream to occasionally and go to.

John Dehlin [01:12:27] So this is a total sidetrack. But did you mention at some point kind of drama in the atheist kind of communities?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:12:37] Well, there's, there's drama. I mean, yeah, there's, there's. Okay, I think we're talking in the context of more of the aggressive in your face for Horsemen style as opposed to maybe.

John Dehlin [01:12:47] I think, I think I'm something I may have read that you wrote previously or maybe some conversation we had. But like I guess I'm saying there was this era where whether it's Penn and Teller or Bill Maher or Hitchens Dawkins and Harris and Hemant were like, it seemed like there were these conferences every year that people would go to and there were big deals. And then I don't know if I remember like accusations of like harassment or whatever. Like I don't know if I. But, but it was weird. I was never a part of any of that. Somehow Mormons are so freaking isolated. I'm guessing there were ex Mormons there. But like to so many of us we just kind of keep to ourselves and build our own stuff. So I don't know, like we're not plugged in. Like just now I'm getting plugged in with like, you know, ex Jehovah's Witnesses and ex Scientologists like Leah Remini and Mike Rinder or you know, J.T. lady C, the ex Joe's Witnesses, Chris Shelton. Lloyd.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:13:51] Lloyd Evans.

John Dehlin [01:13:51] Lloyd Evans.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:13:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:52] Just in the past couple years, have I even found out about them really? But there's. Yeah, but, but I guess I'm wondering is there a vibrant atheistic community and is it still vibrant? And like what are the main Are you a part of it or do you know anything about it or is that not really your. Your thing?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:14:11] I would say I am a part of the atheist community, but it does seem lately that it's diminished.

John Dehlin [01:14:17] Was that Covid or something else?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:14:19] Probably Covid is part of. Seems like there's little barrier to starting your own YouTube channel. So there's hundreds of atheist themed YouTube channels these days. So maybe they've kind of carved the market up where maybe in the past maybe there were like four or five big people, big names that would do it, and now there's probably 500, which I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing. There's still drama though. Like we still have our, our moments of drama, as imagine you guys do in your communities.

John Dehlin [01:14:51] Are there like leaders of the atheist

Anthony Magnabosco [01:14:53] community that are like active leaders, like

John Dehlin [01:14:57] Avengers, you know, like Iron man and Spider Man. Do you do. Does the atheist community have equivalents of kind of like.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:15:03] Well, yeah, I would say like Matt Dillahunty might be a really big name in the atheist community. Have you heard of Matt Dillahunty?

Guest 6 [01:15:09] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:15:10] Okay. I was.

John Dehlin [01:15:10] Don't know anything about him.

Guest 6 [01:15:11] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [01:15:12] Okay. Yeah. Charismatic. Sarah Identity care. Identifies as atheist. I don't.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:15:16] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:17] But not because I'm necessarily a believer.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:15:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:19] I just don't like the term.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:15:20] The term. Okay.

Guest 6 [01:15:21] Yeah, we talk a lot about like, labels can be kind of harmful sometimes and so I, I get that understanding and stuff. But it is the quickest way to explain just as a non religion. I'm not a theist. I don't worship any God. The end. You know, it's a quicker term, but John likes to add a little more

John Dehlin [01:15:38] nuance more than I, I just don't like the term. I don't like. I don't. This isn't a. I just don't like that it's going to turn people off. Just like debating and arguing is going to turn people off for me. In Mormonism, if you labor yourself an atheist for orthodox Mormons and probably even semi believing Mormons, they're going to just shut right off.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:15:57] So it's probably safer to say, I'm not sure if I believe or not or I don't really. I'm not religious.

John Dehlin [01:16:03] Unorthodox or, you know. Yeah, I don't know.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:16:06] I'm kind of torn on it because I can see, see the benefit of identifying consistently. Like if we all identified as one group, there's some advantages to that.

John Dehlin [01:16:16] Taking away stigma, popularizing the term.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:16:18] Right, right. Maybe Politicians seeing us as a voting block and taking us seriously if we were all using the same label. But yeah, when you drop the atheist label, I've seen it. I even see it to this day. People become closed.

John Dehlin [01:16:32] They may as well eat babies in terms of public opinion and popularity. Try running for office in the United States as an open atheist. Forget it.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:16:41] The thing is, though, despite that, I still don't mind identifying as one because I want people to know totally that, oh, my neighbor doesn't believe in any God and he seems like a nice person and he loves his kids and keeps up on his lawn.

John Dehlin [01:16:53] I totally see it, and I feel a little bit of guilt, but I just want to be effective in my community, and I just haven't seen the utility yet in adopting that identity.

Guest 6 [01:17:02] I do.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:17:03] I hear you.

Guest 6 [01:17:03] Being a Provo girl with blonde hair and fake tan skin, I'm like, I'm not Mormon. I'm actually an atheist. Surprise, surprise.

John Dehlin [01:17:12] Yeah. Okay, so Matt Dillahunty.

Guest 6 [01:17:15] Is that Matt Dill Hunty?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:17:17] Yeah. Matt Dill Experience. Yeah. Yeah. He's a pretty big name with the atheist community of Austin, and they have a show called the Atheist Experience and several other shows. He's probably the biggest name at the moment.

John Dehlin [01:17:29] Hemant.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:17:30] Seth Andrews. Hemant Meta.

Guest 6 [01:17:31] Jimmy Snow.

John Dehlin [01:17:33] Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Jimmy's ex Mormon.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:17:36] Jimmy's ex Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:17:37] Have you met? Have you met Jimmy?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:17:38] I've been on a show.

John Dehlin [01:17:39] Oh, cool.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:17:39] While ago.

John Dehlin [01:17:40] Oh, good.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:17:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:41] Okay. Any other big names or big channels or putting you on the spot?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:17:47] No, that's okay. A cosmic skeptic is probably a big one that's out there. Although he kind of dabbles more into debates, and he's very into veganism. Rationality Rules might be a big channel that's out there. You know, I don't really consume a lot of content. I'm usually making content.

John Dehlin [01:18:07] Yeah, I get that.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:18:08] Or developing material.

John Dehlin [01:18:09] You know, I'm cursed by that, too. Is there a Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast or something?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:18:14] There is. Is that out of England?

John Dehlin [01:18:16] I don't think so. I've got a friend. Jerry. I've got a friend. Hey, shout out to Jerry Johnson, who's a huge fan. So I think that's the name of the podcast, my friend.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:18:27] Yeah, I think I have it on my podcast episode thing, but I haven't listened to it.

John Dehlin [01:18:30] Okay. Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:18:31] I've just been busy with other stuff.

John Dehlin [01:18:33] Okay. So I'm almost done with kind of this line of questioning. Okay, so what have been the biggest channels or media exposure like, you know, what have been kind of your. The pinnacles of opportunities or milestone exposures in terms of, like, people giving you visibility, like Good Morning America or like cnn or like, have you ever been picked up?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:18:57] Haven't hit any of those milestones yet. Which is. It feels like it's just around the corner, but we're just not there yet.

John Dehlin [01:19:06] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:19:07] So I guess when I first started, it was just. Just posting my video on a Facebook group. Getting feedback was huge. And then when Heaven Meta made a post or two about it, it was great. Seth Andrews invited me on a couple of times to talk about. About se and playing video examples, so that helped. I've been giving. I've given countless talks. There's a link on my website.

John Dehlin [01:19:29] So you started getting invited to speak

Anthony Magnabosco [01:19:31] at conferences, conferences, presentations.

John Dehlin [01:19:33] You do that a lot.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:19:35] I do, but I'm really scaling it back. It's. It's become too much.

John Dehlin [01:19:38] Why? What was that like? So you started at the peak. How often were you giving speeches at the peak?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:19:47] Speeches online and in person? I would say 40 a year, something like that.

John Dehlin [01:19:53] So basically once a week is a lot. You were either doing something online or traveling somewhere.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:19:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:19:58] And then you have to arrange for the kids to be taken care of or to cover your duties.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:02] Exactly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:03] So being a road warrior, for me, it just blows.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:06] I don't really miss it that much.

John Dehlin [01:20:08] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:08] This is kind of nice, though. This is my second trip this year.

John Dehlin [01:20:11] We really appreciate it.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:12] No, it's awesome. I'm glad that we. Because, like I said, I was here earlier in the year and I was trying to get away from the family to do it, but it just didn't work out. And then we circled back and now we're doing today. It's awesome.

John Dehlin [01:20:23] Okay, so the types of conferences you would be invited to would be what?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:28] Well, I've spoken to the American Atheists conference twice or maybe three times. I've given workshops there. I've spoken at humanist groups and like, local. Yeah, here of Oasis and those types of things.

John Dehlin [01:20:43] Like the one in Wichita.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:44] It's like Sunday assembly. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:20:46] Yeah, yeah, they took me there.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:48] Okay. Yeah. So groups like that, lots of online things.

John Dehlin [01:20:52] Did you meet Channels? Was it Helen? Is that. When did you go to. When did you go to Oasis?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:57] Well, I've gone Kansas City. Oasis.

John Dehlin [01:21:00] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:21:01] Oh, it was two years ago, I think.

John Dehlin [01:21:03] Okay. Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:21:03] Darryl Ray, do you know Darrell?

John Dehlin [01:21:04] Yeah, yeah, Darrell.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:21:06] Yeah. So there's a list of all the talks I've given on my. On my website, but it's quite a Few.

John Dehlin [01:21:12] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:21:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:13] Fun.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:21:14] Yeah. It's usually like bigger podcasts, like so it was really cool. I think at one point I was interviewed by David Pakman. That was awesome. So it seems like there's, there's some interest from news about what we're doing, but we're just not quite yet there yet. And I don't know what might be holding us back. I'm thinking the hard when you want

John Dehlin [01:21:34] to break and you don't know how to break through.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:21:36] I'm thinking that maybe it's the associate association with atheism or something along those lines, but.

John Dehlin [01:21:41] Oh, it's huge. Yeah, that's part of it. Okay, so. So as. As it's transitioned from just a YouTube channel and a Facebook group and then the Discord thing, then you started the nonprofit. How has it evolved and kind of where are you looking for it to go? What are you hoping it to become?

The Street Epistemology Non-Profit and Future Course

Anthony Magnabosco [01:22:04] Well, at the moment we are structuring the board in a way where we have enough people to do the work that is available to do. The other part of that is getting the website up to snuff and actually coming up with some products, some, some things that people can be using to learn. Learn se to help fund our ventures. Ultimately, we want to be able to test what we're doing and find people who are interested in the scientific aspect of this communication approach. Is it better than debate? Like what are the long term results of this? Could we track several dozen people over the course of a year? Wouldn't that be cool to see that journey? So that's really what we're trying to shift to is is put the infrastructure in place so that we can get some money to test this, but also fund other people to promote it too. Because at the moment people who are interested in se, they're strictly volunteers who are doing it. This is all coming out of their own pocket. But we're at the point now where we're able to purchase equipment for people. If somebody wants to go out and get a camera or edit videos, there's a couple hoops that they have to jump through in order to do it. But we have funds now to. To cover that type of stuff, which is great.

John Dehlin [01:23:18] So how so. So your non profit is how are you generating revenue now?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:23:25] At the moment it's all through donations

John Dehlin [01:23:27] like a PayPal button or PayPal button. Patreon. Okay, yeah, Patreon.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:23:33] Do you.

John Dehlin [01:23:33] And it's for every video you put out, you. You pay.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:23:36] Yeah, that reminded me, I actually started monetizing my own videos.

John Dehlin [01:23:40] Through ads.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:23:41] Through ads. And all that money goes to the nonprofit. So I, I don't make any money from it, but that's how we get our money at the moment. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:49] So the primary source of revenue for your non profit is YouTube ads.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:23:54] YouTube? No. That's probably third. We have some donors that have contributed over the years that like what we're doing and they want to see us succeed. So we get a generous donor that sends us a nice check. That's awesome. That helps.

John Dehlin [01:24:05] Helps.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:24:06] The second part of that is just your every average day person who Maybe can contribute 10 bucks a month, that type of thing.

John Dehlin [01:24:12] So you have people just sign up and that's where we get most of our revenue. Just monthly donations.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:24:17] And then probably the YouTube thing is maybe third on that list.

John Dehlin [01:24:19] But sounds like you haven't been really aggressive about fundraising.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:24:22] No, because we're still just laying the groundwork for this and we're kind of going slow and methodically. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:32] So I. I'm gonna ask you a hard question.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:24:35] Go for it.

John Dehlin [01:24:36] So I had to do this as a primary breadwinner. So for me, I had to build an organization that could support me and my family at first, and then if I could grow it well enough, I could help support other people's families with, with, with positions. But yeah, I had to make it sustainable that way from the very start. Yeah. So. But my hard question to you is, why aren't you getting paid? Because I have seen, like, I'm even more impressed now than before. And I was impressed before, but the fact that you've been doing all of this and you've been able to be so successful and there's been almost no monetary benefit to you at all and that you haven't quit. Like, my biggest thing is you see people coming into the ex Mormon space or the progressive Mormon space, wanting to make a difference, and they're just so often a flash in the pan because they start something, they'll start a podcast to start a YouTube channel.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:25:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:33] But then it's busy. And criticism and comments and having a constant flow of content. People just burn out and they go away. So I'm actually not. Even though I love the altruism, and I did it for five or six years making nothing. So I mean, I get that too. And I did that too. But at some point I'm like, I either have to make a living off of this or go to something else.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:25:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:56] And so I'm a huge fan of sustainability. And so I actually think leaders of this type of thing, it'll have a chance of being more successful and of lasting longer if the, if the people are getting paid. Now, I'm sure some of my listeners are like, I hate you, John. But, but that's, that's, that's my. That's what I've learned. What's your response? Why don't you draw a salary?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:26:20] Well, number one, I don't need to.

John Dehlin [01:26:22] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:26:22] I don't need to have another source of income. So that was probably the primary thing. And I want to see this thing succeed. Yeah, it's not just my thing.

John Dehlin [01:26:31] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:26:32] Like this is a tool that we want everyone to learn. So that really was just kind of secret. Secondary. I just wanted to see, see the, the. I want to see the organization succeed and I want to see this method propagate. That's it. Like all. But you're right, we do need money to make this thing work. And we'll probably reach the point, it's at some stage where we'll need to start paying people. In fact, we're actually quickly reaching it.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] You have no paid staff right now?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:26:58] None.

John Dehlin [01:26:59] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:26:59] No, it's all volunteer based.

John Dehlin [01:27:00] But that's so cool.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:27:02] You can, if you work with volunteers before, you know what it's like.

Guest 6 [01:27:05] Like.

John Dehlin [01:27:05] Well, it's brutal.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:27:06] Well, they start very strong and then they ghost you or that totally all the time.

John Dehlin [01:27:10] How have you done that? How have you harnessed volunteers to actually get stuff done?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:27:17] Well, that's a good. I don't know if I have the right good answer because some people stick it out because they see that, they find it rewarding and they love it. Others get burned out for whatever reason. How do you, how do you maintain those people? I mean, I guess just treat them nice and try not to overwhelm them and ask, ask them frequently if they are getting overwhelmed. That's probably the best that you can do.

John Dehlin [01:27:42] But it's also. There's the idea of quality control. And of course, I don't want you to throw your volunteers under the bus or even alienate or criticize them in any way, but I mean, there's a real high quality to what you do, in my opinion. I mean, like, I'm not good. I don't want to embarrass Kara, but she views you intellectually as a heavyweight and I do too. Are you. Are you blushing?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:28:04] Why does he keep saying this?

John Dehlin [01:28:06] No, but I mean, there's a super high quality to what you do and I imagine it. There's a real intellectual rigor to what you do and it takes a Lot of restraint to practice street epistemology effectively. And so I imagine that having volunteers, volunteers try and participate, you're going to get a varying level of quality.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:28:28] Well, it depends on where they're helping out. So for example, we're working on this self directed course where we've identified certain topics that we want to see in this course and we've structured them. We have a team of a dozen people from around the world working on this thing and they've been working on it for a year.

John Dehlin [01:28:45] A dozen people?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:28:46] Yeah. Now people come and go and we have to replace it, but. But people have been sticking it out. Is it like a multimedia platform we're actually communicating on? Well, it's eventually going to be on the street epistemology website where you'll be able to go and pull up module one and go through it and take it and do all the stuff like

John Dehlin [01:29:01] with animations, with video, just audio, just

Anthony Magnabosco [01:29:04] written text with some illustrations at the moment.

John Dehlin [01:29:06] Okay, that's great.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:29:08] Very simple.

John Dehlin [01:29:09] Is the curriculum all formulated or are you still working on the course?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:29:12] We are about a. We're almost a third of the way done with the course.

John Dehlin [01:29:15] Wow.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:29:16] It's going to be about 21 modules, each module about 30 pages long.

John Dehlin [01:29:20] Are you the primary author or.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:29:23] No? We have subject matter experts who are. They are pros with street epistemology and they're all taking different modules. But we tag team too. So sometimes we'll have a team of three people review what the other person wrote to make sure that there is a decent quality there. And then we also test. I don't know if you've noticed this, but whenever we have a module that comes that's ready to go to the public, we actually have a few people from the community test it. We do focus group testing and make sure that it's good before we put it out there. But we're not as far along on that as I'd like to be. Maybe by the end of next year, maybe we'll have half the course done.

John Dehlin [01:30:03] Wow.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:03] See?

John Dehlin [01:30:04] So I mean, honestly, it's going to take you three, four, five, six years.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:08] To create a course.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:10] Right. Oh, but what do you do? Like, yeah, we, we've, we've tried all different types of approaches, hiring people who are experts in writing. But if you don't know the subject.

John Dehlin [01:30:20] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:20] So we're kind of limited to the, the volunteers at the moment.

Guest 6 [01:30:24] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:24] But we have to transition to a more stable platform and organizational structure. You know, where there is money coming in.

John Dehlin [01:30:36] Yeah. We're 16 years in. And it wasn't until three or four or five years ago that we were able to start trying to think about staff and.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:44] And we would love to have three

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:47] or four people and just knock it out.

John Dehlin [01:30:49] Yeah, you'll get there.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:50] But we're getting a lot done. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:52] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:52] Do you guys do grant. Grant proposals and type of stuff?

John Dehlin [01:30:55] We've not done any grants. We've got a couple small.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:57] That's an area that we were going to probably head into is do some grant writing.

John Dehlin [01:31:01] Yeah. Well, I love that vision of trying to run scientific studies of the effectiveness.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:31:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:07] Of street epistemology over time. That's.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:31:11] We want to see this thing, you know, what is happening in a person's brain when they're thinking about their thoughts in the way that we do when we're using se.

John Dehlin [01:31:20] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:31:20] We want to see what's happening because it seems like something's happening when. When I'm engaging with somebody in that method and they're thinking. It's profound. It's profound to watch them do that. And they also later say, well, that was really fascinating. And I want to. I want to see what's happening in a person's brain and how effective is this long term? Are people really thinking about it later and changing their mind on these things or not? Yeah, we gotta study it.

John Dehlin [01:31:46] Yeah. As I'm watching your videos, I'm thinking about that all the time. Like, how much did they change, you know, by the end?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:31:53] Yeah, I started last year or two. I started encouraging people to come back for more than one talk. I don't know if you noticed, but I would offer them some puzzle pieces and they would come back and that was neat. But it's still anecdotal. It's still anecdotal experience. Yes. They're coming back for three or four talks, which is great. We're seeing movement or we're talking about different topics or that type of thing. There's growth, let's just put it that way. But we need something a little bit more rigid than some video examples from some dude in Texas.

Guest 6 [01:32:22] And it's usually in person is technically. But I've seen you do it online as well, so that's a little bit easier to make sure that you can circle back with people online. Right.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:32:31] I mean, it might be easier to circle back to a person that's online, but I think you lose a lot in the caliber of the conversation when you're doing it online as opposed to in person. That would be my preference. Just like to do a Video or face to face.

John Dehlin [01:32:45] Okay, so with the not, you've got a non profit, you got a board, you are trying to build a course and you're trying to get grants to do academic research. Anything else in your vision?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:32:57] We're revamping the website because.

John Dehlin [01:32:59] Web redesign.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:33:00] Web redesign, yes. We want to have a very solid back end so that we can make the course available to people in a really robust way and develop WordPress site. We're shopping around now for a platform. Yeah, yeah. We actually thought about doing the website redesign with volunteers, but that was. I think this was the project that was the transition from let's use a whole bunch of volunteers for this to. No, let's actually use the money that we've collected so far and actually hire somebody to do this for us.

John Dehlin [01:33:32] Totally.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:33:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:34] You know, the nonprofit space, it's. I found it to be really brutal, really hard. But also we've. We've made an impact. So.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:33:42] Yeah, you guys have.

John Dehlin [01:33:43] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:33:44] Been around for a long time. You got this big event coming up on Sunday.

John Dehlin [01:33:47] Yeah, Thrive. Yeah. Yeah, but that's, I mean, that's why for me, like, these are the things I think about all day long and separate from content is just like, how do you. But, but okay, let me just say this. You have had a fraction of the. The budget that I've had, I think, and way less time doing what you're doing. And you've got more. You've got a bigger. You've amassed a bigger following and you've been more effective. Like, I'm just gonna own that right now. You've got 70, 70, 000 YouTube subscribers and you said 5,000 on Discord and a big robust Facebook group. And you're, you're more well known than we Mormon stories. So I mean, you've done that. You've done a phenomenal job with, with

Anthony Magnabosco [01:34:35] not much, very little resources. That's impressive. I think the videos just speak for themselves, really. Like, if you just watch the videos and you see what's happening, that sells it.

John Dehlin [01:34:44] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:34:45] The other thing is that we're not just talking with people about religion or a specific religion like Mormonism. So se is much more broad than that, which could be a reason why. Like, so we might have videos about exploring racism or transgender issues or things like that. So veganism, these are topics.

John Dehlin [01:35:05] Vaccines.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:35:06] Vaccines.

John Dehlin [01:35:06] Have you been covering that?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:35:07] Yeah, I just, I just released a video where. Yeah, where we covered that.

John Dehlin [01:35:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because. Because there are all sorts of problems in society beyond religion. Right. Magical thinking.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:35:20] So that probably Explains why it's a little broad, but I'm still. I'm still kind of perplexed why it's not bigger.

John Dehlin [01:35:27] Isn't that frustrating?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:35:29] Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know, like, I have my suspicions why that might be the case. You know, probably because of the origins of se. Maybe we just need to wait until the stigma of atheism goes away. I don't know. But the course that we're writing doesn't even mention atheism or God or religion or anything like that. It's. It's much broader in scope because when

John Dehlin [01:35:49] I, When I originally asked you to come, at some point, one of the times you had mentioned. I'm trying to kind of get away. I don't know if that's you as a kind of leader or. It seemed like you were basically saying there's some other guy that's doing more of the religious stuff. Like, is that. Did I get that right or.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:36:07] So I'm a little torn. Me personally, I love speaking with people about their religious views because I think there are so many other views that they hold that are dependent on that one. And I think your biggest bang for your buck if you're going to engage with somebody is to explore how they concluded that their religious views are true. So that's appealing to me. However, as the executive director of this nonprofit, we're trying to broaden this tool out. We want to use this far beyond just religion. And that's always at the back of my mind. If I do an interview like this with a high profile ex Mormon who's had a podcast since 2005, what is going to be the perception of that? Because I do want to move se into a broader culture, but also, like, I also want to give people these tools. We're going to probably be meeting a lot of ex Mormons this coming weekend, and they're likely going to be looking for ways to talk to their loved ones about these things.

John Dehlin [01:37:10] Things.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:37:10] And I think that this is a really good solution. So I'm torn, you know, and you have a big reach, too. So this is, this is a good reason to come out here and do this.

John Dehlin [01:37:18] Yeah, but it's tricky because. Yeah, yeah. Religion. I don't know if you're familiar with the term the third rail. Like, I learned it in D.C. like, you know, in, on. On the, I guess on the Metro.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:37:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:29] There's the two rails that the train runs on, then the third rail provides the electricity.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:37:33] Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:33] Am I getting this right?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:37:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:37:34] And if you touch that third rail you die. Die. Basically, like religion and atheism is, is often that third rail where like, oftentimes professors like, I, you know, I, I pursued a PhD and a couple master's degrees and like, so many of my advisors are like, I don't want to get anywhere near religion. You know what I mean?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:37:53] It's tough. Here's the challenge too, is that there are people who are in different disciplines. They're in, they're in science communication or they're academics of some sort. And they're coming up, they're noticing the technique that we're using here with street epistemology, and they see the value in it. But I do wonder if they're still maybe holding back and not getting too involved in SE because of that. So, yeah, I'd say there's a significant effort to try to broaden SE out.

John Dehlin [01:38:26] Yeah, that's, that's.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:38:28] And it should, it should be broadened out, I think.

John Dehlin [01:38:31] Sure, for sure. Yeah, that's another. Okay, so that's another focus you have. Well, we appreciate you coming here to work with us anyway, even though there's, it's fraught, it's complicated, it's not that

Anthony Magnabosco [01:38:44] big of a deal. Yeah, it's, it's okay. I mean, if you invited us and we evaluate that and is this a group that we want to affiliate with and, and of course, this is me personally coming here. I'm not necessarily representing the nonprofit, but yeah, I mean, I like what you guys are doing. You're helping people who need it. And a lot of people don't even know that they need this help. They just think, oh, this is this trauma that I'm going to deal with. You're offering solutions. You're normalizing non belief with a specific demographic. That's exciting for me to see. You know, that's going to really start changing things.

John Dehlin [01:39:25] You know, now that you mention it, now we're sort of switching a tiny. I mean, it's been a conversation all the way. But like, I'll just share with you something that, that I've thought a lot about and we've thought about, like when in 2005, when I'm like, what should the podcast format be? There's a lot of things you could do. You can, you can monologue, right? You can have panels, you can interview experts. And in my case, I attended a digital storytelling conference as a part of a master's degree. I got in instructional technology. And in that digital storytelling course that I took, they talked about the power of narrative, the power of story. That we kind of evolved, you know, around the campfire, telling stories to each other. And that's how wisdom and beliefs and all laws all got kind of passed down. And so when I was thinking about the format for the podcast, I thought, well, how about stories? You know? So you went the street epistemology route. I kind of thought, how can I make the biggest change, cause the biggest shift in people? And for you, it was street epistemology. For me, it was storytelling. Because. And I'm sorry, I'm just. I hope this is interesting to you. This isn't me trying to bring the attention back to me. This is me having a conversation with the fellow thought leader, if you can call us that a tiny bit, to just talk about what works. And what I found is stories are super effective because they captivate your interest and they pull your emotion. Because people, if you've studied Jonathan Haidt at all, like the Righteous Mind, I'm sure you probably know it better than me. Oh, yeah, he talks about the writer and the elephant.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:41:18] We have his book on our website as a reference.

John Dehlin [01:41:20] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:41:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:21] So it's the elephant that moves people. Emotion. The. The amygdala is gonna override the cerebral frontal cortex every time. Emotion's gonna override intellect every time. The man is never going to override. If the elephant's scared and the writer is scared, who wins? The elephant wins. And so. And I learned this also studying psychology, doing psychotherapy is. You could have an intellectual conversation with the client. Tell me this, tell me that. Answer these questions. You could have that dialogue. But if you could get them to feel, you could really cause a shift with the feeling. And so stories captivate people's attention. We have 13 hour stories on Mormon Stories podcast, if you can believe that. 13 hours. But there are people that listen to every hour. Not everyone, but a lot do. But more importantly, they're captivate. Their attention is captivated. But then when the. When you. If you can get people to the point in their story where they're talking about the way they were abused, or they're talking about losing, you know, getting separated or divorced from their spouse because their spouse still believed and they lost their faith, and then how they were alienated from their children, or if you can get them talking about the way that they feel angry that they wasted 60 or 70 years of their life and 10% of their income, and you get them to start tearing up or to express. Express emotion or sadness or anger or joy. When you get them talking about how joyful it is to now like Accept their gay child and to be able to love them instead of wanting. Making their child want to kill themselves. Whatever you can do to elicit emotion, that's what I found, is where the hearts get changed many times. Not all the time, but many times. So you're trying to get people to make shifts. Shifts by having them examine their epistemology. If I get to the heart of my strategy.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:43:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:22] It's to get people to pay attention, get hooked by an interesting story, and then to feel along the way.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:43:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:31] And that's what I've noticed often causes the shift. Now, I hope that wasn't super boring for you. It was not me being narcissistic. I'm literally just sharing now.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:43:41] I'm glad. I'm glad that you did. And it reminds me of a technique that is almost a hybrid of what you're doing with your audience and eliciting the emotions and the narratives and the street epistemology part. And it's this movement, or there's another technique that's on the West Coast, I think, called deep canvassing. These are people that go. And they knock on doors. They go to specific areas. If there's a vote coming up for transgender bathroom rights or something, they'll look and see where people are at and how they vote, and they'll knock on the door and ask for a level of confidence in your position. On a scale from 1 to 10, which is a very S y kind of thing, maybe even motivational interviewing, you tend to do that type of stuff. But the person, the interviewer who's knocking on the door will share a personal story, a narrative that their brother is trans or they're trans, or they had this horrible experience where if the law was passed according to what they're pushing for. So they'll make this story, this very emotional appeal, and it can be very influencing on the person who's opened the doors, is now listening to the story. They often detect shifts in changes of confidence or positions on how they'll vote after this exchange. It's one thing that we don't do in sc, though. We don't tend to utilize emotion and

John Dehlin [01:45:06] narratives, although people get emotional.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:45:08] People do get emotional when they're revealing their views, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:45:12] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:45:12] But if I was interviewing a Mormon, for example, it could be tempting for me to share a story where I struggled with my faith and I overcame it, and I'm better because I don't believe it anymore. I could do that with the idea that they may find it compelling and that could actually sway them or convince them. There's this in the spirit of se, sort of, we try not to persuade or move anybody.

John Dehlin [01:45:41] That's not your intent or is it?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:45:44] Well, sometimes it can be. It's nuanced. There might be situations if I'm talking to somebody who's against the vaccine and they're uploading videos saying don't take it or something, I might be more inclined to want to challenge them and convert them or change their view or something like that. But generally speaking, we try to at least best, I guess sort of best practice of SE is to try to take our views out of it and make it about them. Now we'll listen to their stories and entertain their feelings and reflect back and ask them if that's a really good way to come to a conclusion that something is true because of that experience, for example. But unless we're asked, we don't usually share our views because we don't want to influence them one way or the other.

John Dehlin [01:46:26] You don't want to influence them.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:46:28] Right.

John Dehlin [01:46:29] So why are you doing it?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:46:30] We want the person who we're speaking with to think about their reasoning and decide, am I good with that?

John Dehlin [01:46:38] But you. But as I watch your videos, sometimes I'm torn because you do a really good job not wanting to point or push or prod people in any direction because I think, you know, that's not effective. But I can't think that you're going recording your thousandth and your thousand and first and your thousand second interview without having a motive. Right?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:47:00] Well, of course. I mean, Right. If I talk to somebody that I disagree with and I think I'm right and I think that they're wrong and I think that they can't justify it to their own level of certainty. I want to help them discover that, but I'll also be willing to tell them that too. So that's part of something that we're trying to do to make this a little bit more ethical is to lay it all out for the person. I'd like to ask you some challenging questions. This could be the result, and you may be less sure that your view is true.

John Dehlin [01:47:33] Informed consent.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:47:33] Informed consent is really big for us. I think that sort of gives the green light for those types of things. I also try to be open to what they're saying too, which is kind of difficult. If I'm talking to a flat earther, am I really going to be open to what they have to say? Probably not. Ultimately, though, what I try to do is ask them if they want to believe true Things, is it important for them to believe the truth? And if they say yes, then it's game on. I'll ask them, you know, I'll keep asking them questions until they want to stop or it seems like we should probably be stopping.

John Dehlin [01:48:06] Have you ever asked the question, if I had information that could demonstrate conclusively that your religious worldview wasn't true, would you want to know it? Have you ever, do you ask that? Is that common?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:48:19] I've asked it and I've had all sorts of answers. Many times, surprisingly, people say, I don't think I'd want to know. I'm okay thinking that it's true, even though it may not be. And if they're willing to keep talking, then we explore, well, do you have that same outlook for other views? What is it about this view where you would be willing to compromise in that regard as opposed to some other claim? What might be the next best alternative to finding meaning of purpose without this belief that may not be true. So the conversation isn't over, but you can just be exploring, well, what might be the impediment to growth here?

John Dehlin [01:48:59] Yeah, yeah. In the co. In the field of psychology, it's unethical to have a desired outcome for your client to try and impose your values on them. And so I think it sounds like you're trying to mirror, either intentionally or not, those ethics of just allowing people to do introspection and to grow in the, In a self directed way.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:49:23] Pretty much, yeah. And also keeping that channel, communication open with them so that if they want to talk with you again, they would be willing to come up and talk with you again or that type of thing. We always try to end the conversation on a good note so that we can have multiple talks with the person because sometimes in the moment they think that this belief is the most important thing in the world to them. But then after a short talk and you leave them alone to process it and then meet with them later, they may be more further along and may be more open to considering. Maybe, maybe I can't justify this.

John Dehlin [01:49:55] Yeah, yeah. So if you could wave a magic wand and make religion disappear from humanity, do you, do you feel enough confidence that humanity would be better off without religion to say you would wave that wand? Or is that too much of a hypothetical?

Personal Beliefs, Doubt, and the Limits of SE

Anthony Magnabosco [01:50:14] No, no. I've been asked this once before, like, if you could push the big button and get rid of religion, would you push it? The answer that I gave then and I would give today is no, I wouldn't push it. Because there Are probably other things that that person would fall for because their reasoning process is probably not as sharp as they think that it is. And that's what I think is happening here with religious views. We're concluding that these things are true because we were taught them. They make us feel good to think that they're true. And we usually stop there. And that is probably something that humans do, regardless of whether it's a religious claim or, or that this, this rock is a healing rock or something along those lines that humans are very good at figuring out ways to hold on to beliefs that they can't justify to themselves. And that would happen whether religion was around or not, I think. So there's, there's a more fundamental issue that has to be addressed.

John Dehlin [01:51:07] Yeah, yeah. I always like to say that you can trade doubt, you can lose your religious faith and then join just a different cult.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:51:18] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:19] And actually be worse off. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes. Sometimes imperfect beliefs are superior to, I guess, worse beliefs or sometimes no beliefs or structure at all. Have you ever, have you ever thought about that? That sometimes when people lose their faith, they get lost?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:51:40] Sometimes people do. This is one of the reasons why I volunteered for the last seven or eight years now with Recovering from Religion. As we mentioned before, it's a great organization because I wanted to figure out where do people go when they're done speaking with me and I challenge their views. And let's say that they really do start questioning and doubting and getting rid of this belief. As your listeners will know, it could be a painful process. And I think we have a responsibility there to let the person know that this is a potential outcome. Like even though you may not believe that this could happen, this could happen. And what kind of impact are we talking about here? And if they say that there would be no impact whatsoever, you might want to double check, make sure, because there probably is going to be an impact. They may not just recognize it yet.

John Dehlin [01:52:27] As far as your personal beliefs or views go, whether it's religious beliefs or non beliefs, political beliefs, even issues around social justice, do you share your thoughts and beliefs and positions publicly or do you avoid that?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:52:46] I try to avoid it as much as I can. Really I do, because one of my goals is to get these tools into everybody's hands. And if, if people think that this is a tool set that is primarily used by people of a specific political affiliation, then I think that that could be a problem. So I just kind of try to keep it on the down low. I mean, I'm not ashamed of it. You can probably look and see what I tweet or retweet to get a sense of where I stand politically. Or on religion, for that matter.

John Dehlin [01:53:17] Or on social issues.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:53:19] Or on social issues, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:53:21] Okay, so like, I have to ask you this. So, I mean. Yeah, by, by the topics you choose that says something so obviously religion. You. You've mentioned flat earthers.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:53:31] Yeah, well, the topics I choose, I actually don't choose the topics usually.

John Dehlin [01:53:35] Really?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:53:36] Yeah. So when I flag somebody down to do an interview, I'll usually, I'll explain what I'm doing and then I'll ask them to pick the topic. Do you remember me doing this to pick the topic? I want them to pick a topic that they think is true. Now, they may pick a topic that I don't think is true or I have zero interest in, or I'm keenly interested in. It doesn't really matter. I'll still use the same approach even if I agree with them, because I'm there to demonstrate the application of this tool to the people that are watching the videos. So the topic almost doesn't even matter. The topic is useful for broadening out the video library to show the versatility of the technique. So the topic almost doesn't even really matter to me whether I agree with it or not.

John Dehlin [01:54:24] Okay, so you prefer not to talk about your beliefs.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:54:27] And personally, I mean, I mean, it's pretty obvious that I don't believe in any gods. That's. I'm completely tired. I'm left leaning. I'm a left leaning person politically.

Guest 6 [01:54:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:37] When it comes to kind of LGBTQ issues. Have you talked at all publicly about your views there?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:54:42] I. I support lgbtq, of course.

John Dehlin [01:54:46] Okay, well, that, that, that brings me to a topic that was kind of important and kind of shocking to me. So. So I have a transgender child.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:54:57] You have a what?

John Dehlin [01:54:57] A transgender child.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:54:59] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:55:00] And a couple. I have a child who identifies as queer. Bisexual, and I have a child who identifies as asexual. So it's a very. It's a rainbow family, for sure. And I didn't know any of this until after I, you know, was kicked out of the church. I was excommunicated from the church. I don't know if you knew that, but in 2015. What?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:55:20] I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [01:55:20] Yeah, in 2015, I was excommunicated. And then just a couple years ago, my oldest kid came out as transgender, and I was on your site and. And somehow sometimes I wake up at three in the morning and I was on your site. And I clicked on a link, and it took me to a Peter Boghossian interview with Joe Rogan for some reason. Do I have this right?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:55:42] He's been on Rogan a couple of

John Dehlin [01:55:43] times, and I don't know how I got to that Joe Rogan interview. From your site?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:55:49] From my site.

Guest 6 [01:55:50] I thought.

John Dehlin [01:55:51] I thought. And it was kind of. It seemed like it was Peter Boghossian and Joe Rogan talking about kind of transgender stuff, but maybe in sort of a mocking, kind of disrespectful or disbelieving way. And. And all of a sudden, like, I'm like, wait, that's not. That's not. You know, that's not you. That's some other guy. But then there was kind of that negativity, and it was. I was like, oh, my gosh. And then it made me wonder if you. If that's one of the issues that maybe you, I don't know, felt differently than me. Not that that would be bad or anything, but, like, I was like, oh, man. If he's sort of skeptical about kind of the legitimacy of transgender kind of things.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:56:36] Oh, no.

John Dehlin [01:56:37] Problematic.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:56:38] I disagree with people who are in the SC community and even the creator of street epistemology on a lot of issues. So we're. We're diverse in that.

John Dehlin [01:56:48] Lots of diversity.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:56:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:49] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. When I saw Peter Bosian was telling Joe Rogan about this study he did, kind of exposing the peer review academic process as kind of.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:57:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:02] As kind of fraught. And even that I was kind of torn about, because even though I know the academic peer review journal process is problematic, making a mockery of it and kind of fooling it and deceiving it. Yeah. Felt.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:57:17] It doesn't really.

John Dehlin [01:57:18] Didn't feel productive to me.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:57:20] Yeah. It doesn't really align with what we try to do in se. I notice a lot of differences between people like Peter, or James, for that matter, which is another co writer, Lindsay. Peter and James wrote another book to follow, a manual for creating atheists called how to have Impossible Conversations. And this actually gets back to what we were talking about a little earlier about some of the Dawkins or whatever, struggling to use a more cordial approach as opposed to the combative approach. I think that it's really kind of funny because the person who created street epistemology may have difficulty doing that approach and putting themselves into a reflective mindset and.

John Dehlin [01:58:10] And

Anthony Magnabosco [01:58:12] being compassionate while you're questioning somebody. You can learn the questions, you can learn the technique. But again, if you don't have the right attitude. If you don't have the right mindset, if you can't see the person that you're speaking with that you disagree with as a person who just happens to hold a belief that's different from you, if you can't do that, then you're going to really struggle at doing the SE approach. And then what do you do? You probably go back to ridiculing and giving people facts and doing all the things that we don't do in se. So it's been kind of. It's been a little bit strange to see that divergence from people who, you would think, you know, that they understand that there's value in the SE tool but don't seem to be using it. And it may just be a personality trait where they're incapable of using it or. Or this is what I suspect is that the topic is so upsetting to them for some reason that they can't put themselves into that mindset. There's something about that topic. If it was a topic about immigration or gun control, then they'd probably be able to stay in SE mode, but on some topics they can't. And I'm probably in that same boat. There's. There probably are some topics for me, I'm trying to think of what one might be like. I don't like talking about veganism or abortion. I have positions on them, but I don't. And free will is another one. These are just topics that I don't like exploring using se, and I don't like it when people use it on me for some reason. That's just a personality, really. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:50] You don't like when the tables are turned. Why are you laughing?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:59:53] That's not exactly. It's just those topics in particular. I actually love it when people use SE on my claims all the time. Yeah, it's great.

John Dehlin [02:00:00] What are you smiling for, Carrie?

Guest 6 [02:00:01] Oh, I just think that's funny. I don't like talking about those either. Maybe I like talking about abortion a little bit, maybe. But yeah, yeah, veganism. I have like a long history of a family that's been like vegetarian and vegan, and it would be really hard for me to re examine, like, you know, the. Where my family comes from. Just feels like that's part of me, you know, and it's hard to break down those topics. It's like, hey, you're hurting my family's feelings. I'll talk about Mormonism all day, though.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:00:24] Exactly. Veganism is like. It's probably just the same for them that there's probably just some topics that. That they lose sight of the humanity that's behind these beliefs. And I don't know why that might be the case. It's. It's discouraging to see. I don't know what more I could say about it.

John Dehlin [02:00:43] Like, I imagine the current political climate with the past and current president. I imagine you've had a chance to kind of use street epistemology in that domain, and I imagine that's also very volatile.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:00:58] Not as much as I'd like to.

John Dehlin [02:00:59] Oh, really?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:01:00] Yeah. Well, of course.

John Dehlin [02:01:03] Like, have you ever done a QAnon? I should know this.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:01:05] I haven't.

John Dehlin [02:01:06] What?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:01:06] No, I haven't. I need to. We just. It's funny, we just released a tip sheet to give people advice on how to respond about people who are vaccine hesitant. And I was thinking we should probably do this for QAnon and all sorts of other stuff, the topics of the moment. But. Yeah, but like I said, I've been doing a lot of strategic stuff and I've been curtailing my street interviews, but other people have been going out and talking about this stuff, and not just going out on the street, but just having video chats or chats with their loved ones about these topics and then sharing those conversations in the SC communities. So that does happen. But. But I've just been more strategically focused getting the organization established, developing a course for this thing, and finding funding. I've been shifting gears to look more broadly, but. It's a little frustrating too, that sometimes I'll get messages out of the blue like, this happened today. Where's the link to the QAnon videos? Where's the link to the vaccine hesitancy video videos?

John Dehlin [02:02:09] You don't have vaccine hesitancy videos?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:02:11] I don't have any on my channel, but there's a guy who does.

John Dehlin [02:02:14] Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:02:15] So.

John Dehlin [02:02:16] And is that intentional, you just wanting to avoid those kind of third rail topics?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:02:19] I want to avoid it. Just. I'm.

John Dehlin [02:02:21] You've been doing other things.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:02:22] I've been doing so many street interviews. It really wears you down. Oh, it's. It gets physically and emotionally draining.

John Dehlin [02:02:28] Yeah, tell me about it. So you kind of taking a bit of a break from that?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:02:31] I don't think I'm gonna ever do street interviews again.

John Dehlin [02:02:33] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:02:34] I think I'm done with that.

John Dehlin [02:02:35] Maybe we won't do them tomorrow then, Kara.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:02:38] Maybe this will be the last hurrah. But yeah, I just. There's. There's other people who are doing it, and this is the point I was

John Dehlin [02:02:44] getting to when did you stop? When did you stop? When was your last one?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:02:48] 20. February 2020.

John Dehlin [02:02:51] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:02:52] Not too long ago.

John Dehlin [02:02:52] Okay. Right before COVID Right.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:02:55] Right before COVID and I had. I met a couple of Mormon missionaries on the campus.

John Dehlin [02:03:00] Yeah, I saw that video.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:03:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:02] And they broke you.

Guest 6 [02:03:02] And they converted you.

John Dehlin [02:03:03] They converted you.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:03:06] They bought me a sandwich.

John Dehlin [02:03:07] Yeah, I saw that.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:03:08] So that was a really good talk. That was your last talks. There were several talks after that, but not with the Mormons. I actually went back to that campus a couple times, hoping to have more talks with those two guys in particular. And then I had wanted to invite them to the holidays because I figured they were. They were not local.

John Dehlin [02:03:27] No.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:03:28] And I'd love to have them over to the house for Christmas dinner or something like that, but I couldn't find them, and they never emailed me.

John Dehlin [02:03:34] Darn it.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:03:35] But I was gonna. The point that I wanted to make was that it doesn't even really matter the topic that's being explored. Maybe I talked about this a little bit, that it's really the technique. So whether I agree with somebody or not, it's just you still ask the same types of questions. You want to understand what they think and the why. But really get getting to the. The how. How are they verifying that? That's a good reason for thinking it.

John Dehlin [02:03:58] Yeah. Okay. So again, the. The topics you like to avoid are abortion, free will, and veganism. Are those the three?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:04:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:08] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:04:09] Why don't you like which one? Which one are we talking about first?

Guest 6 [02:04:14] I know. I don't ask about free will. I just want to know why you don't like it.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:04:18] I'll tell you what, I don't like the free will talk because I don't think I would behave any different if free will. If I had it or I didn't have it.

John Dehlin [02:04:26] I have the opposite concern. Just that whether or not free will exists, the belief that it doesn't exist. I don't know how that's helpful to people other than to make people feel less bad if they make mistakes or do wrong to help them be less judgy. That's what I was gonna say about others or themselves.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:04:43] Yeah. If someone's on death row, you might have a little bit more empathy for that person and not want to kill them. You know, they probably couldn't control their actions in the first place.

Guest 6 [02:04:49] But.

John Dehlin [02:04:50] But is. Is it not. As someone who wants to feel like I'm an autonomous agent, if I'm running around thinking it doesn't matter because. And I know that's not a fair characterization of no free will proponents. But I just. For me, I like to think that I'm in charge. It makes me feel like. Like what I do matters and my choices matter. And I just. I like that feeling. So that's. That's what it is for me.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:05:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:12] But for you,

Anthony Magnabosco [02:05:15] the terms are so goofy, and people have different ideas of what free will is. And my sense is that we don't have free will. I think I could. If somebody thought that they did have free will, I think we could explore it and realize that they couldn't demonstrate it.

John Dehlin [02:05:29] Sure. With street epistemology.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:05:31] Yeah. I think I've even had a couple people talk. In fact, when I was discording, like, in between talks, people say, ask somebody about free will. I'm like, oh, okay, we'll do this one, because there's a demand for it. So if there's a. A demand for a topic, I'll try to do it.

John Dehlin [02:05:46] Yeah. So how effective have you observed street epistemology to be? Like, if you had to take the thousand people you've interviewed or thousand interviews, however many, how many of you shared a thousand?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:06:00] Probably twelve hundred, something like that.

John Dehlin [02:06:02] Do you even have a guess for, like, what percentage of the people walk away in the short term having their beliefs transform so much? Is there a way you can see a twinkle in their eye? Have you ever, like, have you ever had someone go, oh, my gosh, I don't believe anymore.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:06:16] It's happened.

John Dehlin [02:06:18] Like, what's.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:06:19] It's a little rare.

John Dehlin [02:06:19] What's the bell curve?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:06:21] I don't know. I really don't know. But I could tell you, when I am speaking with somebody, there does seem to be something happening when I'm speaking to them, there does seem to be a reflective moment where they're pausing, they're thinking, and there's. I don't. I don't know. I have to think about that. And that's really the goal. It's not. The goal isn't always to figure out where they are on their confidence level and get them to move. Like, I think that they're wrong, and therefore I want to see movement down, or I think that they're right and I want to move them up or something. Ideally, the goal is to gain clarity into their views and also help them gain clarity into their own views so that they can process it on their own. The idea here is, I guess, that if a person realizes that they can't back up their belief to themselves, that might be the start of belief. Revision that, wow, I don't have a good reason for thinking that this is true. Where's the evidence? That kind of reflection could start the process on it. But as far as, like, how many people change their mind at the end of it, I have no idea. I have no idea. Because you're tracking them.

John Dehlin [02:07:37] That's not the goal. And that's not the goal.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:07:39] It can be your goal. Sometimes my goals can even change. Like, I may go out and say, I'm gonna go to this protest. I want to talk to QAnon folks, and I want to help them realize that they can't back this up to their own satisfaction. That could be a goal of mine. Sometimes, though, I'm in the middle of a conversation and it seems like maybe they're particularly dependent on thinking that this is true. The QAnon thing may not be the best example, but religious views I've had people say I would harm myself or other people if I didn't think that God was there for me.

John Dehlin [02:08:17] Yeah. Sean McCraney told me that once.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:08:20] That's my trigger to say, okay, I'm going to start easing out of this conversation gracefully here. After perhaps making sure that they really mean it. Because sometimes people say this stuff because they have been told it and they don't really believe it, but if they mean it, then it's. I usually just back off. That's happened a couple times. Happened. Once there was this woman. She thought that a goddess was protecting her, a pagan goddess, and she seemed really dependent on it. And I. Probably not as graciously, but I think I abruptly ended the interview, like, well, it seems like you really need this. And I think I'm going to end it now. And I'll be darned if she didn't email me an hour later saying, you've got me really thinking about this. I do want to believe true things. Can we meet again?

John Dehlin [02:09:05] Wow.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:09:06] And we did, on camera. It was awesome. Unfortunately, she. About a year later, she said that she was looking for jobs and she didn't want those videos out there of her online, so I had to take those down, unfortunately. But at least I can talk about them in interviews like this, you know?

John Dehlin [02:09:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's almost like you're not. Okay. I'm really getting more clarity. You're not trying to move people on any beliefs per se, but it's almost like you're trying to teach them to fish, where if they can just learn to practice and get good at evaluating the foundations of their beliefs, they'll maybe start doing it regularly.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:09:39] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:09:40] And. And just develop the ability to refine their. Their beliefs and worldview.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:09:46] Is that right? Yeah, exactly. So there's an efficiency to SE that often gets missed, and that is once you identify that I'm weighting my reasons for thinking that something is true through this process. So the process might be, well, I get this warm feeling in my bosom that confirms it for me, or whatever other method. I take it on faith that it's the case, or I say a prayer and I'll be darned if three weeks later that something close to it happens and it confirms it for me. When you start realizing that the method that you're using to verify your reasons is faulty in some way, you start being more careful about the methods that you use to verify your reasons across the board. So there may be thousands or hundreds of other beliefs that are affected by the recognition that I have a faulty method. So that's why I say it doesn't even almost matter what claim you could probably do se simply by exploring reasons and methods and not even worrying about a claim, you could probably even do it there. So that's the idea, is to get people to think about their reasoning process. Am I being careful in my reasoning here? And once you teach people how to do that, and you can do it on safer topics, but ultimately they start using it on the harder beliefs, the beliefs that are core to people's identities, like these religious views.

John Dehlin [02:11:08] Is it basically just a form of critical thinking?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:11:11] I think it's critical thinking in a dialectical, and it might even be critical thinking and the scientific method in a dialectical. Because when you think about it, we're establishing what their claim is. That's the hypothesis. We're figuring out what their biggest reason is, that is their evidence. And then we're asking, well, how are you verifying your reasons or your evidence that's testing, that's the method. And all this is critical thinking and science packaged in a dialectical that people tend to enjoy that can profoundly transform a person if they are honestly willing to go on that exploration with you.

John Dehlin [02:11:52] Have you ever been accused of just being a deconstructionist? That street epistemology adopted by everyone leaves everyone with no beliefs and no framework at all. Because they just deconstruct everything. Because there is no real solid foundation for everything. Because at the end of the day, it's all just words made of letters that make sounds and we're all just creating story anyway. And what does it all mean?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:12:16] I think somebody commented recently on a video a Week ago saying like, well, I guess this just leads to nihilism.

John Dehlin [02:12:25] What is that, Kara?

Guest 6 [02:12:26] I give a big thumbs up.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:12:29] Did you give a thumbs up to that question?

John Dehlin [02:12:32] You're pro nihilism.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:12:33] Is that what.

Guest 6 [02:12:34] Pro nihilism.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:12:35] Nihilism.

Guest 6 [02:12:36] I've accepted some things just don't matter and I just do what I can on this earth with the 90 years I'm given.

John Dehlin [02:12:42] All right.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:12:43] There is. Here's the thing about se is that it doesn't take away your beliefs. It takes a. It doesn't take it away. S E isn't impacting your belief, it's impacting your confidence that the belief is true.

John Dehlin [02:12:58] True.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:12:59] So you can still hold a belief about a God.

John Dehlin [02:13:02] It's just lowers your confidence level.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:13:05] Yeah, right, Right. Like maybe I'm 98% sure God is real. After some reflection and processing, if somebody was using this method, I might lower my confidence. I still hold a belief about God, but I'm less sure that it's actually the case.

John Dehlin [02:13:18] Why is that good? I. I can give you my guesses, but why do you think that's good? Why do we want a bunch of people with weaker convictions as to their beliefs?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:13:28] Yeah, right. Because if you become so weak minded in your convictions, then maybe you're just a pushover or you just.

John Dehlin [02:13:36] Or apathy. It's like you lay in bed all

Anthony Magnabosco [02:13:37] day and don't care.

John Dehlin [02:13:38] America's okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:13:39] I don't need to vote. Right.

John Dehlin [02:13:41] Democracy's all right. Capitalism's okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:13:45] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [02:13:46] Marriage is, you know, meh.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:13:49] It doesn't seem like people ever go that far. Although maybe they do. I guess they. I'm less worried about that and I'm more worried about the dogmatism. The opposite is when I was just

Guest 6 [02:14:01] about to ask you that.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:14:02] Yeah. It's like when you're so locked into the position, when you're 100% sure and you just know because you know, because you know and there's nothing that's gonna. Or because you feel it's that resolute ignorance that is so problematic and dangerous. That's one of the inspirations for me is if I meet somebody who's dogmatic about a position, any position, it could be free will, abortion, veganism, or God or whatever. Doesn't matter. Seeing somebody recognize that they can't be 100% sure about that is monumental. I think it's even bigger than going from a 90 to a 70 on your claim or going from a 90 to a 10 just realizing, oh, maybe I could be wrong on this. That's a huge goal, I would say of se is helping people realize the problem of being dogmatic on both positions. So being at a zero that there's no God is probably as bad or as dangerous as being 100% that there is not being just being closed minded on it, I think can be a problem.

John Dehlin [02:15:04] I actually learned the term epistemic humility before I ever heard of you. But it's just this idea of just of being open. It basically just leads to openness.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:15:12] Do you remember how you heard it? Was it Julia Galef by any chance?

John Dehlin [02:15:15] I heard her use it once within a Mormon. Everything I've learned is epistemic humility is great.

Guest 6 [02:15:20] I think I made that up.

John Dehlin [02:15:21] Yeah. It was Cara. It was Cara.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:15:23] I think I heard it from her.

John Dehlin [02:15:24] Let's go with that.

Guest 6 [02:15:25] If you don't know, why not? I know it could be semic humility about where you heard it.

John Dehlin [02:15:30] Yeah, it could have been. Yeah. Who knows? My confidence levels that I heard it from Cara is about a 1%, maybe 0.01%.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:15:38] But I can think of things that would move me up and I'm not dogmatic at the zero on it.

John Dehlin [02:15:44] Like a cheeseburger might move me up

Guest 6 [02:15:46] from, you know, to a 20 bill underneath the table.

John Dehlin [02:15:50] But. But it just. But, yeah. So one of the impacts of street epistemology can be openness, which can lead to growth more. More information. Updating your operating system.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:16:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:16:02] And being open to new information and new conclusions. Right. Not nihilism and deconstruction of everything.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:16:09] Right, Right. Yeah. Hopefully you have a loving community of other people who are not dogmatic that recognize the benefit of questioning and doubt. This reminds me of a talk I had with a young guy who he was 100% sure God was real. I don't think he was LDS church, but something else. And he mentioned that it wasn't good to doubt, it wasn't good to question. So instead of pursuing his God belief, the entire talk was could it ever be good to doubt and question? And if so, why? And the whole conversation was about that. And he became more open to the idea of doubt, which I thought was a real win. He saw the value in it. He was doubting things in his regular life and he recognized that this could be a problem if I didn't also apply that to this very important belief that this God was real.

John Dehlin [02:17:05] Yeah. Wasn't our book the Gift of Doubt or something? But basically doubt is being a really important. Even if you're a believer, doubt is still important. Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:17:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:16] For sure.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:17:18] Yeah. Hi.

John Dehlin [02:17:21] Kara's husband Aaron just joined us. We've got a fourth camera if we want to turn it on. Aaron can join our podcast. He's a podcast host. Co host. Veteran.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:17:31] Do you do lighting, too? We're really struggling with it today.

John Dehlin [02:17:36] Welcome, Aaron. Okay, we'll. We'll be wrapping up pretty quick for today, if that's okay. Sure. So. So do you have beliefs now? And if so, do you. Do you have any cherished, closely held beliefs at all?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:17:54] Of course I do. I have lots of cherished beliefs, but I wouldn't say what survived. Well, everything. I mean, I have a belief about God. I don't think one exists. So I would say that that's a belief. And I have a belief that it's probably to be help people who need it and tax wealthy people to cover the costs for the other people who need it.

John Dehlin [02:18:17] Like, I have views, of course, positions, but not. But not beliefs.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:18:24] Okay, so we should probably get into definitions here. My definition of a belief is the recognition that you have an understanding of some sort of concept. So, like, for example, I didn't know Aaron existed until just now. I now have a belief that he exists. And I also have a corresponding level of confidence that he exists. If Kara had mentioned that she has a husband, well, it probably would be not as high as it is right now. And in fact, I don't really know that you're her husband.

John Dehlin [02:18:51] He might not be Aaron or Kara's husband.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:18:53] Exactly. So I try to think of belief as two things. The recognition of an idea and then a corresponding level of confidence that that idea is actually true or not. That's kind of how I think about beliefs.

John Dehlin [02:19:06] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:19:07] I'm still fleshing that out, by the way. We'll see. Maybe that'll be in the book.

John Dehlin [02:19:12] So you have positions, but not a lot of beliefs is that I use

Anthony Magnabosco [02:19:16] the word position, belief, claim, synonymously.

John Dehlin [02:19:19] Yeah, but is there anything you just believe without evidence?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:19:23] Oh, yeah. I believe that there's life on other planets, but I don't really have evidence for that. But I would say my level of confidence that that's true is probably 20%. So I've got the belief, and then there's this corresponding level. And I try to think of it this way in numerical terms. And maybe because I've always been doing this se stuff for so long, that's how I think of it. And that's really how we try to frame these conversations too. When I'm talking to somebody, you think something is true. How confident are you that this is true. We try to disentangle the belief claim or the view or the position from the individual. And we want to get a sense of how sure they are that that's true. When you frame it that way, it helps people become more objective in their view. Like it seems like people. It's easier for people to step away from their belief claim and objectively look at it when you ask them to explain their reasoning for thinking that that's true to some degree of confidence.

John Dehlin [02:20:27] So what do you think? What do you think happens when we die?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:20:32] It seems like our bodies break down. I don't think our consciousness goes on to live elsewhere. I think that this material world is all that there is.

John Dehlin [02:20:46] And so what keeps you going? Why? A believer would say, why bother then?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:20:51] I know, I don't get that. I'm always perplexed at that question, like, why do you even care then if this is all the life that there is?

John Dehlin [02:20:58] Yeah, what's the point?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:20:58] What are you talking about?

John Dehlin [02:21:00] Some come from a place of pain where it's just like life's too painful. And if it's not better later and if I don't get some sweet reward, I may not want to keep going.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:21:10] This is not worth it. Yeah, if there's a person like that, then I usually don't stand in the way of their beliefs. They can keep believing whatever they want because the last thing I want to do is have somebody harm themselves. But for myself, I want to try to go where the evidence takes me. And there doesn't seem to be any good reason to think that there's a life after this. I mean, my life ends, but other people's lives do keep going. You guys with your kids keep going on. My wife with our kids keeps going on. You and your family. I want your lives to be as pain free and happy as possible. So I think what we do here in this life does matter for the people that are left. And that means something to me whether I'm here or I go on to some afterlife after.

John Dehlin [02:22:03] So for you, the meaning and purpose of life is what?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:22:07] It's family. And it's. You mentioned epistemic humility. And I'm actually tempted to say that because I think being humble about what you can claim to know is the mindset that you need to have a virtuous life to make this life meaningful. You're not tricking yourself with stories that make you feel good or following somebody because they say that something is true, but they can't back it up to your satisfaction or theirs. The authentic life is the thing that makes this meaningful for me.

John Dehlin [02:22:47] Why family? What's that based on?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:22:51] It probably has to go to the idea that they'll be left after I'm gone. There are people that I love. They've been there for me, I've been there for them. We have a. We have a history. We have a relationship. I value those relationships. They mean the world to me. So I'd say that that's a big part of it.

John Dehlin [02:23:08] Is love a belief?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:23:10] Love is an emotion. Love is a feeling. You can believe somebody loves you or you can believe that you love somebody, but generally, no, I would say it's not a belief, but it's a feeling. It's a sense like confidence. So my sense of confidence that something is true is also a feeling, I think, just like my feeling of love.

John Dehlin [02:23:37] I mean, it sounds like you're saying one of your core pillars of meaning and purpose is family, which is based in love. Which is based in a feeling.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:23:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:23:48] Which doesn't really sit on any really solid logical foundation.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:23:54] Well, I mean, the feelings that I'm experiencing are real to me.

John Dehlin [02:23:59] But feelings get people in trouble.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:24:00] They sure do. Right. And they can be unreliable, too. I could think that my family loves me when in reality they don't. So I could be having a false feeling. In fact, I guess I would call that a belief. In that case, I believe that my family loves me, but I don't know for sure. It's possible that they don't. I could be deriving meaning from a feeling that my family loves me when in reality they don't. I recognize that's a possibility, but I wouldn't want to deceive myself and pretend that it was otherwise. Right. It's a wise thing to be skeptical about everything, to not be dogmatic about even that. Even the most fundamental thing that's so important to me. I wouldn't want to be deceived if they were just tricking me or something. I don't think that that's the case, by the way.

John Dehlin [02:24:50] Yeah. What has it meant to you to make such a big difference in so many people's lives?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:25:00] I don't know if I have, have I. It's hard to. It's hard to tell. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:06] I mean, people care for our listeners. Cares.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:25:11] It's helping you.

John Dehlin [02:25:12] What would you say, Kara?

Guest 6 [02:25:14] Oh, the things. Anthony's videos. Yeah. Just the. The method of street epistemology and doing that to my own claims, having a lot of, again, epistemic humility about. Okay. The truth claims of Mormonism, demonstrably false. But I don't want to fall into other cult like thinking other dogmatic beliefs and so kind of using those to apply them to a lot of things. And that led into me starting my TikTok and calling myself Nuance Ho because I wanted to stay far, far away from dogma and still just be like, I don't freaking know a lot of things. At the end of the day, I just want to have conversations with people. And yeah, it's. It's led in. The techniques from SE have led into so much of the demeanor that. Yeah. Has carried me to right now to have this job at Mormon Stories. And I hope that comes across that. I swear I'm a nice person. I know I'm an atheist. I'm don't eat babies. And like, it's just. I hope that it carries it across that I just want to have conversations with people and get to the root of what they believe, why they believe it, and not be too dogmatic that I need to impose my beliefs on people either. So it's helped me in every relationship that I've had.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:26:18] Wow, that's cool. I appreciate you saying that. People do reach out and say that the videos have helped them almost on a daily basis. I'll get a message out of the blue from somebody from around the world. Could be Jakarta or something. And these videos have helped me have better conversations or they've helped me at work dealing with my boss, or I'm thinking about starting a business, a consulting business where I teach people how to do this. That's. That's exciting. It's surprising too, I guess, because I don't know if I really set out to do that. I just wanted to have good examples and show people how to do this. It does seem to be changing and helping people. It does. I don't know if I could deny that, but are you asking me how I feel about it?

John Dehlin [02:27:11] How does it feel? I mean, let's be frank. You have had a really big influence on tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of people, not to mention the ripple effect. And so that. And you're getting daily emails around the world of people saying, thank you, you've really helped. Yeah. How does that. How does that feel?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:27:32] It feels good. It's mixed. Part of me is really excited that they took the time to reach out and let me know that it affected them in a positive way. Part of me wonders if. If. If there are more out there who just aren't emailing. Like, how big of a thing Is. And maybe that leads to a little anxiety, too. Like, is this. Is this reaching as many people as it. As it could? Is it causing harm that I'm not aware of? You know, am I only hearing the good examples and not the bad ones?

John Dehlin [02:28:04] So you don't get a lot of bad feedback?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:28:06] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [02:28:08] Either.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:28:08] None. I mean, I don't.

Guest 6 [02:28:11] I can think of one.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:28:11] I get. I get criticisms now.

Guest 6 [02:28:14] I can think of one thing that it made me a little bit sad as I realized I was using just the practices of SE on my Mormon family members. And it kind of. You have to take kind of an outsider belief and have the interlocutor kind of come with you on that. And this is going to sound really bad, but I realized that a lot of my family members are racist and that they don't. They can't take an outsider approach because the way that they view people of that are, let's say, Muslim, that have darker skin, that they're not able to see them on the same intellectual level. And so I. It was really depressing. I actually wrote a Reddit post about it when it happened because people were not willing to go on that journey with me. And I realized it wasn't going to go where I wanted it to go because I had to come the. To the conclusion they weren't willing to actually ask themselves if they had good reasons because they know those reasons. They don't care if a brown person has those reasons because they're brown. Does that make sense?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:29:06] Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you discover, oh, boy, this is a bigger. I've opened this box, and it's way bigger than I expected. There's a lot in here that needs to be unpacked before we can even get to the claim now that I wanted to talk with them about. So, yeah, I mean, it seems to be having an impact on people, mostly for the positive. I don't really get a lot of negative, negative feedback on it at all. If anything, it's usually just, you know, why haven't you uploaded a video in three months? Or something like that? Like, where's your content? What are you doing?

John Dehlin [02:29:38] What have you done for me lately?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:29:40] I'm working way harder than I ever have, and you just can't see what's going on at the moment. But it's happening. This stuff is happening.

John Dehlin [02:29:47] It is so hard to run a nonprofit. It's one of the hardest things I've ever done.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:29:53] That's challenging.

John Dehlin [02:29:53] Yeah. So why have you not written a book? God damn it. Or have you? And I Don't use that word often, but I'm going to use it today. Why have you written a book?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:30:06] And if I haven't?

John Dehlin [02:30:07] What the holy. Say it, Kara.

Guest 6 [02:30:10] I'm not allowed to. I'll get fired.

John Dehlin [02:30:11] Okay, we'll do it. Mormon. Well, what the fetch. Anthony, why haven't you written a book?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:30:19] Well, I got.

John Dehlin [02:30:20] Have you tried?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:30:22] No, I haven't tried yet. I haven't started it. But I've been thinking about writing one. I was thinking of earmarking 2022 strictly for that. For writing a book because.

John Dehlin [02:30:30] All in favor?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:30:32] I'm in favor of it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:34] Okay, cool. Yeah, keep going. Sorry.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:30:38] No, that's okay. So I got sidetracked with this self directed course. It's taking way more time and I think it's the best use of my time is to get these instructions down and these guidances to people in a really clear way so that we can really start teaching people how to do this. And then my journey into all this and the behind the scenes stuff and some of the surprising things that happened when I was interviewing people and after the fact, I want to write about that. And even some of the tension, some of the tension maybe behind the scenes between other people in the movement and things that I think there's a lot to say about this whole journey. Probably what I would do if I. If I was going to start writing a book is I would. Is there a way to print your Twitter timeline? I think there is. You can download it, right? I think I would go to there because I was pretty good about just keeping my thoughts updated there. And I think that's pretty much the structure of my book right now.

John Dehlin [02:31:34] Wow, that's a good idea. I just realized how I'm going to end this interview. So. So we are going to have a part two tomorrow where we're going to dig into what street epistemology is cool. We're going to role play it and we're going to really. And. And this is just. Maybe this is indulgent, but I think you're important enough to just everything that we've just talked about. I'm really glad there's a record of it. Maybe you will or won't be glad that it's there. I'm glad it's there. This is my fetching podcast. So. But anyway. What? But I just figured out how I want to end today.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:32:06] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:32:07] Okay. I want to ask you what my listeners can do to help you do two things. Finish that fetching course quicker and write that book quicker. If it Means give you money. If it means give you different types of volunteers expertise, how can my listeners who care about you and value you and your listeners of viewers if they happen to tune in? Because one thing that I've learned that's allowed us to do what we do is sometimes when you need something, you have to ask for it. And sometimes when you need something, you have to ask for it for 10 years until you get it. But you have to ask sometimes over and over and over again. So what do you need most to write that book within a year? And what do you need most to get that course done within a year? If you could wave a magic wand, what needs needs to appear in your lap? And how can these listeners of viewers make that happen?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:33:03] Okay, so the. The book I think I can do pretty much on my own. I've got. I've got some resources with people who have written books before that are willing to help me structure it and do all that stuff. But I really don't want to start the book until the course is done. So with that in mind, I would say what we need for the course is donations, of course, to help us pay for the.

John Dehlin [02:33:22] How much money? How much money would. Would sort of seal the deal. Do you even have an estimate?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:33:28] If we had 40 grand, I think that would be good.

John Dehlin [02:33:30] 40 grand, dude, I can totally help you raise 40 grand. For sure.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:33:34] We're actually thinking about doing a fundraiser before the end of this year. Maybe we can coordinate and do something.

John Dehlin [02:33:38] I.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:33:38] Is that cool?

John Dehlin [02:33:39] Kara, are you in?

Guest 6 [02:33:42] What kind of question is that? I'm, like, willing to, like, quit this and walk out of here with Anthony.

John Dehlin [02:33:47] Yeah, and I would be supportive.

Guest 6 [02:33:50] I love talking about this stuff so, so much.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:33:52] Of course. Let's see you on the review videos that we do.

John Dehlin [02:33:54] Okay.

Guest 6 [02:33:55] Okay. I'm so there.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:33:56] So like, 40, dude.

John Dehlin [02:33:57] Let's. We're gonna have a fundraising campaign. We're gonna raise you 40 grand. And I'm just saying it right now, we're gonna raise you. Help you raise 40 grand. Okay, keep going.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:34:04] So let me tell you where we put that. We. We have an illustrator picked out. She's great to draw illustrations for the course. And we also need to pay for a lead editor to go over this, the material that we've written. So you've got subject matter experts who, they're great at se, but we're not the best writers. So we need somebody to take that writing and put it into a good form. There's a marketing component to this that's been overlooked. Really need to work that angle. And then related to the course is the development of the website that needs to have a learning management system as a backend so learners can log in, create an account, track their progress. That will lead to a certification program for se. This will lead to consulting services and a whole business arm of. See, so the course really is the linchpin, and that's the biggest thing holding us back and holding me from being able to write my book.

John Dehlin [02:34:56] Can we get the curriculum of the course written and then the book written? Because I think writing the book is going to help you be able to fundraise to create the learning management system and then the certifications and the. I don't know, and the training. Sometimes writing a book really gets you indoors.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:35:15] It could, it could. There's also something to be said for getting the course written and tested with the SE community first and working out the kinks. Right. So there's the writing of the course and there's the testing of it and the focus group testing and all that.

John Dehlin [02:35:28] I'm just saying. Websites and learning management systems. I used to work for Microsoft and I worked for mit and I did educational curriculum stuff. Sometimes the technology and the LMS system can really buy in the website and web text can really bog you down. That's all I'm saying.

Guest 6 [02:35:43] Annie used to date Renee Zellweger. Yeah, we got.

John Dehlin [02:35:45] No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just trying to. I'm trying to be a consultant.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:35:50] I missed something.

Guest 6 [02:35:51] I just like when you're like, I used to do a bunch of really cool stuff, adding in more humor. What am I here for?

John Dehlin [02:35:57] Renee Zellweger and I went to high school together.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:35:59] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:36:00] Yeah, no, but, but okay. So anyway, yeah, I. I would love to ask some of my listeners this kind of. It's like a Magic 8 ball. Like sometimes this podcast audience, you just kind of put that wish out there and people rise up to make it happen.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:36:17] That sounds like the law of attraction almost.

John Dehlin [02:36:19] So I do not. Yeah, it's. It's the law of the podcast.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:36:23] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:36:24] It's the law of social media.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:36:25] And you've been doing this for so long, you know your answer very well. And in fact, we did a fundraiser about two years ago. Pre Covid. I wanted to do a trip out here to Salt Lake City to go to general conference and do some interviews with people. So we advertised that in the SC community and in the ex Mormon community, and we raised, I think we raised 5,000 or $10,000 in a matter of two weeks. So it's been. It can happen if we.

John Dehlin [02:36:53] Oh, people have to put it together

Anthony Magnabosco [02:36:55] and get it out there.

Guest 6 [02:36:55] It's going over here.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:36:56] That'd be really cool and it would go to good use and really get that course out there and give people the tools. What we're developing in this course for street epistemology is far better than the two books that have preceded it and that PDF that I mentioned and even the tutorial, my own tutorial videos, I want to take those down because those won't be the best representation of how to do this. They aren't today. They're dated. They need to be replaced. And this is the way to go.

John Dehlin [02:37:23] So what I'm about to do, I learned on my mission as a Mormon missionary. It's called the commitment pattern. I'm going to ask you, I'm going to ask you to make a commitment. So we're not live streaming now? Actually we are, but we're not. It's not public.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:37:33] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:34] We are going to be releasing this in a week or two or three. Can you commit to us to have a donation, a donation button or campaign ready so that when this airs we can point people to it and they can start giving you money?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:37:51] We can, because we just had our board meeting and we, we already voted to do a fundraiser fundraising campaign for the month of December. So we're. Those wheels are in motion. So that's. We're good to go on that. You got it.

John Dehlin [02:38:03] So we. Can we be one of your fundraisers, please?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:38:05] Of course, Anthony, I'd love to have you be one of our fundraisers. I think that would be great.

John Dehlin [02:38:09] Yeah, I think that would be a great contribution. Kara, you're in. Kara's already quitting. Kara just texted me her text of resignation. These days, Gen Zers resign over text.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:38:21] We're not hiring yet.

John Dehlin [02:38:22] Care resign to work for you. I will miss you, Kara. It's been great working with you.

Guest 6 [02:38:27] Yeah, thank you. Quite honestly, though, like, before I even started this stuff, I tried to figure out how I could do se on the street and I was like, that's a whole other. Like, that's a big thing.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:38:35] Oh, really? There's so many variations. You can go to a park and you don't have to do it on the street. Do you guys ever table? Do you go to farmers markets?

John Dehlin [02:38:42] We need table. Like, let's get into this tomorrow. But I really want to, like, call on my audience to start practicing street epistemology with all of their orthodox believing Mormon family members. Oh, and then. And then taking notes and reporting back.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:38:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:38:58] I wanted to become a movement within the ex Mormon community.

Guest 6 [02:39:01] I really do.

John Dehlin [02:39:01] The usage of street episode.

Guest 6 [02:39:03] I have one critique of the ex Mormon community. It's the thing we talk about all the time with the backfire effect and that, you know, you want to take people on this ride with you. Of like, I discovered all this information. You should discover it too. And like the Nephi effect effect of like, don't lose the gleam in your eye for me, mom and dad, but that's so many. That's like a millionth degree away from where people need to start, which is with se.

John Dehlin [02:39:24] Yeah, right. And Anthony's like Nephi. Who's Nephi?

Guest 6 [02:39:29] You guys know what I mean. Performance stories listeners.

How to Practice SE with Believing Loved Ones

Anthony Magnabosco [02:39:32] There's also some important things that we should probably cover when we. So the next time we sit down, we're going to be going over what, how to do se.

John Dehlin [02:39:39] Yep.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:39:39] Is that right?

John Dehlin [02:39:40] And role play.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:39:40] So if the majority of your audience you think will be using SE with loved ones, then there's other things that we should be talking about in addition to how to do it. There's certain considerations that I think are really important. SE with a stranger on the street who's not expecting it is far different than doing SE with your aunt who you have this long relationship with.

John Dehlin [02:40:00] If it's okay, I know you may not come to the Comedy hour tonight, which means you may have a spare moment or two to think about and you can change your mind. But if you don't and you have a few minutes to think about it, I think the main role play we should do is. Is. Is you play the role of the ex Mormon who has recently lost their faith. Right. And Karen, I can play the role of like the parents or the siblings who are still orthodox believers.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:40:29] That would be great.

John Dehlin [02:40:30] Would you be willing to.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:40:31] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:40:31] Think about just a tiny bit, like how. How we might approach that, because I. That's going to be the scenario that's most relevant. It's.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:40:38] Right.

John Dehlin [02:40:39] We're trying to like, not blow up our relationship with our parents, with our siblings, with our children, with our aunts and uncles and cousins, with our community members. So how do we do that in a way that doesn't go south, that doesn't turn hostile, but that helps orthodox Mormons think through. What do you think, Karen?

Guest 6 [02:40:56] Yeah, I can't wait.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:40:57] So, okay, this is an interesting scenario. As I understand you want to be the parents who are.

John Dehlin [02:41:01] We'll role play the believing orthodox. We know that. We know that.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:41:06] A deconstructing son or whatever.

John Dehlin [02:41:09] Or just the interlocutor. Is that the word?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:41:13] Yeah, well, the interlocutor is usually the person making the claim.

John Dehlin [02:41:18] Oh, the inquisitor. What's the word? You tell me.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:41:21] Interlocutor. Well, interlocutor technically means like we're both interlocutors to each other, but in se, we usually mean that's the person who's making the. The claim.

John Dehlin [02:41:30] So what's your role?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:41:32] That's what I was wondering.

John Dehlin [02:41:33] You don't know.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:41:33] You don't know the name of the interviewer or. Oh, yeah, interviewer.

John Dehlin [02:41:37] Okay, okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:41:38] We usually say se. The person doing se.

John Dehlin [02:41:40] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:41:41] Se. Er.

John Dehlin [02:41:42] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:41:43] But yeah, interviewer or the facilitator. So in this scenario, tomorrow would I be the person? You would be the ones making the claims about your religion. And that's true.

John Dehlin [02:41:56] And.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:41:56] But you have to believe it or you're going to go to hell and all this.

John Dehlin [02:41:59] Right?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:41:59] Okay, yeah, you would.

Guest 6 [02:42:01] You would be topics. Because so many truth claims, down to things like, of down to things that I think we have even nuanced Mormon beliefs I think would be interesting to get into about like. Well, of course, you know, X, Y and Z. The temple is only for, you know, believing people. But what if we want to start letting people who are not, you know, active temple believing people in the church? Like there's so many topics in Mormonism that people disagree over.

John Dehlin [02:42:26] But again, he. Yeah, and I think you made it really clear. Content is less important than structure too. But it is, but it's still fun. Yeah, content's fun.

Guest 6 [02:42:34] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:42:35] I'm also thinking in this scenario, would the person who's the deconstructing Mormon be defending. I would, I would think that they're going to be trying to defend their views of non belief as opposed to questioning the parents about theirs.

John Dehlin [02:42:49] Well, that's the whole thing is the. You know, maybe we'll start with. With you saying to us, your parents, mom and dad, I've lost my faith.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:43:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:00] And then we're gonna say to you, this is a disaster. This is a tragedy. You've ruined our eternal family and you're gonna wreck your life. And then there's going to be two things you have to do. You're gonna have to kind of like help. Help ask questions that will help a parent maybe start to think differently about their loved one who has lost their faith. But then maybe you can finesse and elegantly shift that conversation to helping, you know, as it evolves to beliefs, helping the believing, loving, orthodox Parents start to think about the foundations of theirs. Does that make sense?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:43:46] Yeah, I could probably do both. I want to help you understand why I don't believe. But I'd also, if you're willing, let me explore why you think that you're right.

John Dehlin [02:43:54] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:43:55] But would a son, you know, would a son really do that to their parents? Maybe.

John Dehlin [02:43:59] No.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:44:01] I don't know. Do they?

John Dehlin [02:44:02] You haven't much envisioned children using street epistemology with their parents.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:44:07] I haven't really. Yeah, I'm sure it happens, but I don't hear of any. Most of the examples of SC we see are with strangers on the street, but most people who do se are with loved ones. That's. That's the dilemma that we have.

John Dehlin [02:44:18] I mean, the two use cases I think that are going to be most common are going to be spouse to spouse, where one spouse believes in, one doesn't, and then child to parent, adult child to.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:44:31] Yeah, we can do either. Either scenario or both or whatever. The role plays a little tough because we're pretending.

John Dehlin [02:44:37] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:44:37] It's ideal if it's a real conversation. Like, so if you. If you literally had a believer who can come in and sit down and we can really explore their belief. But I don't know if that's feasible or not.

Guest 6 [02:44:46] I asked them, but there might be

Anthony Magnabosco [02:44:48] some of the comments. We can do some of the. We're gonna have a table for se. I think might be loud, though. Would you guys get my shirts that I sent you?

John Dehlin [02:44:55] I'll have to check at home.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:44:56] Did I send them here?

John Dehlin [02:44:57] I. Did you shove them to my home?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:44:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:00] Well, Karen and I have practice of decades of belief, so.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:45:04] Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you'll do a fine job representing the position.

Guest 6 [02:45:08] I was like super conservative lds, half in the church, half in like evangelical Christianity, like everything in this whole other sphere than I am now. So. That was two years ago. So I have to do. I can put that. That brain cap back on.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:45:23] Do you want to put that cap. I do. That's the question.

John Dehlin [02:45:27] Sarah likes to make the joke that role play is one of her favorite things. Why are you looking at Aaron? Why are you looking at.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:45:33] Uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [02:45:34] What was that?

Guest 6 [02:45:35] Not with him. Just kidding. That was a joke. I love my husband very much. No, I think that it would be really fun to do a role play, but I understand what you mean. That it's different between somebody that you have an emotional tie to that you're gonna see again all the time. Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:45:56] We don't want to set your audience up for failure either. By presenting a false example, we want to make it as realistic as possible, but we also want to point out what's happening, too. So what I'm thinking is we can role play and then I'll say pause. And so did you notice what happened here? That we've got this. We've got this tension going on. And what I'm going to try to do next with this question is try to address that. I think we can talk people through it.

John Dehlin [02:46:20] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:46:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:22] All right. So this has been, for me, a very wonderful couple hours. We're two, almost three hours in. Thank you so much, Anthony, for today. Yeah, Kara, thanks for coming in.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:46:35] Yeah, thanks for coming in.

Guest 6 [02:46:37] Delightful, delightful discussion. Thanks, Anthony, for flying out for sure.

John Dehlin [02:46:41] And coming to Thrive.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:46:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:43] You're gonna speak at Thrive?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:46:45] Yeah, I was actually thinking maybe that night before. So Saturday night.

John Dehlin [02:46:52] Wait, but let's talk Thrive in just one second.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:46:54] Yeah. Well, it's about five. Well, for my talk for Thrive, what I was thinking is one of these nights when I go out and talk to people, I want to get a sense of maybe, or maybe you even know what they would like to hear. What would be most interesting to them? Is it advice on how to talk to loved ones? Is it. Should it be more broad? Because it's just 15 minutes. You can't get into too many details.

John Dehlin [02:47:15] Let me wrap up this as if I'm ending the episode and then we can have that talk. Is that okay?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:47:19] Sounds good.

John Dehlin [02:47:19] Okay, so just really quickly, it's awesome that you're going to be speaking at Thrive. We're so glad you came today. And I want to end this episode because by the time this airs, Anthony's going to have a donation button up that's launching a new campaign where we're going to help raise $40,000 for street epistemology International.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:47:40] You got it.

John Dehlin [02:47:41] Is that the nonprofit?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:47:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:47:42] Which is a 5:1C3 nonprofit. So your donations will be taxed at deductible in the United States. And they'll file a 990. So they'll be transparent in their finances, which is an important thing. And we're going to help him raise 40 grand or more. So, listeners and viewers, that's my call to you as I end this episode right now. Go to either street epistemology.com or mormonstories.org where this episode is, or in the show notes on YouTube or Facebook or wherever you're consuming this episode on your little iPhone in the description, there'll be a link. Click on that donation Button today. Don't give your money to Mormon stories. Give your money to street epistemology. Let's be good Samaritan ex Mormons and support a very worthy cause, and hopefully we'll have you back in a year. Pimping. Is that a bad word? Pushing your book or the.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:48:36] The completion of the course and maybe the announcement of the start of the book.

John Dehlin [02:48:39] Okay, I'll take it.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:48:39] How about that?

John Dehlin [02:48:40] That's a good negotiation. In a year, we'll have him back announcing the completion of the course and the beginnings launching. Okay, Beginnings.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:48:48] Set a high bar here.

John Dehlin [02:48:49] Is that all right?

Anthony Magnabosco [02:48:50] Let's go for it.

John Dehlin [02:48:51] We've done much. We've done much more. Yeah, we can do this. Yeah, we can do hard things. Right.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:48:55] Thanks for doing that.

Guest 6 [02:48:56] Yeah. And I just wanted to add that you did an interview with Marriage on a tightrope with Alan Mount. So I want to add that to the show notes because this is not your first, like, introduction into the ex Mormon podcasting kind of world.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:49:08] No, I talked to them maybe three years or so ago. I think we had technical issues. The phone dropped three or four times, if I remember right. It was a really great conversation.

John Dehlin [02:49:16] Alan's so smart, says Katie. Katie and Alan are brilliant.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:49:18] He's fantastic on Tick Tock.

John Dehlin [02:49:20] Yeah. Oh, yeah, he's great. Oh, shout out to Alan. Alan, you just got called out in a positive way by Anthony. That's. That's a high. That's high praise right there.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:49:29] Oh, wow. I just. Great work.

John Dehlin [02:49:32] All right, well, thank you so much for today, and we're excited. So those of you listening, viewing, by the time you watch this, you'll be able to go right to part two, and we are going to dive deep into what street epistemology is, how to use it, how not to use it. And we're going to role play and we're going to have some fun, so just tune right back in. Thanks for listening, thanks for viewing, thanks for supporting Anthony, and we'll see you guys all again very soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks, Kara.

Guest 6 [02:50:00] Thanks, guys.

John Dehlin [02:50:01] Thanks, Anthony.

Anthony Magnabosco [02:50:02] Bye. Bye. Thanks for having me on.

Foundations of Street Epistemology Explained

Part 3 of 5 · Ep. 1515

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is November 12, 2021, and we are now officially in part two of our what I would call epic, important, inspiring interview with the one, the only, Anthony Magnabosco. Anthony, welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:00:22] Thanks for having me back. Part two, let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:00:24] I loved our interview last night. You said, I don't want to mischaracterize what you said, but it was a different interview than what you normally have, I guess.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:00:33] Yeah, I was thinking about it afterwards. You asked a lot of questions that I normally get, but then you went five steps further on those questions, which I don't normally get.

John Dehlin [00:00:42] Was that tedious and obnoxious?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:00:45] No, it wasn't either of those. It was just unexpected and yeah, I guess I wasn't expecting it. It just kind of threw me off a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] So for those of you who are just joining us for the first time, who didn't hear part one yesterday, I we spent a good three hours interviewing Anthony Magnavasco about his life, about what led him his early years, what led him to have an interest in secular thought, in rational thought, in skeptical inquiry, and even the atheist movement, and eventually what led him to create street epistemology as an approach. And then we talked a lot about what it's like to try and be an educator slash activist and a social media presence or personality and to run a nonprofit. So it's a really, for me, it was a fascinating three hours. It was a real honor to have you, Anthony. And today we are going to be doing something different. We're going to shift gears. Today we're going to be doing, as part one, an introduction to street epistemology for those who are just trying to understand why this is interesting or important. Anthony's never been Mormon. He is a never Mormon guest, as we call them. And the reason why I think I'm bringing Anthony, we're bringing Anthony to you, my audience, is because one of the biggest problems within Mormonism is when you leave a high demand religion, when you lose your faith in a high demand religion, you still have a spouse, potentially, if you were married or siblings or parents or children or ward members, friends, family, who are still orthodox believers. And they are, as we've well chronicled, a Mormon Stories podcast. They're going to be disappointed in you, they're going to be sad for you, they're going to be afraid for you, and they're going to be angry at you sometimes. And that's going to lead to conversations where you try and convince them that you're a good person and you try and even take their beliefs away from them or make them come to learn the same things you've come to learn. And we all know how that ends. That ends with contention and anger and frustration, antagonism. It ruins relationships, and it even creates what we call the backfire effect, which is where sometimes you leave the orthodox believer clinging more tightly to their beliefs than than they were before you had the conversation. And why in the world would you want to do that? But most importantly, at Mormon Stories podcast, we are against people's relationships being destroyed over a set of magic based beliefs. And so we are bringing Anthony here. We flew him here, because Anthony's going to help us learn a technique called street epistemology that can be useful in our conversations with believing loved ones. Not to change their beliefs, not to further worsen the relationship, but to help them become more introspective about beliefs in general and their beliefs specifically. And your point of view. The discussion of epistemology or why we believe is a really one of the most central tenants of understanding Mormonism and ex Mormonism. And so Anthony is going to give us tools through street epistemology to help us talk to our believing loved ones, family and friends. And if it weren't enough to have Anthony on the podcast, we also are blessed to have Kara Burrell.

Guest 7 [00:03:57] Oh, me? Oh, thanks. That's nice.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] How was last night? Did you have a good time?

Guest 7 [00:04:01] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:02] Why is your voice a little bit.

Guest 7 [00:04:03] I was screaming. Chelsea Homer puts on a great party at the Wise Guys with Alan Mount. And yeah, my voice is a little bit low and raspy. It's good for radio. Welcome.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] It's good to have you, Kara. And Kara, we mentioned this yesterday before Kara was ever a listener to Mormon stories, maybe even before she was a Bill Real fan, she was an Anthony Magnabosco fan. So she's a true disciple of street epistemology. And she's the one who. She didn't twist my arm, but she's like, hey, why isn't Anthony on? And I'm like, oh, we tried. Anyway, Carrie, you're a big reason why we have Anthony here.

Guest 7 [00:04:38] Oh, good. Everyone can leave their comments about how grateful they are to have me on the podcast then.

John Dehlin [00:04:44] You're well loved by 90% of my audience.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:04:46] You're well loved.

Guest 7 [00:04:47] Direct. All of your compliments to me. Anthony is the reason I'm here. Just kidding. Now it's just really important. And again, just echo back What John said, I don't want any more relationships ruined over differing beliefs. And if this is just one more tool that people can utilize in their relationships with their believing family and friends, I'm so grateful to Anthony. You flew out from Texas just to come kind of teach us some of the way that you think better conversations, cordial conversations, can happen. So thanks for coming out.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:05:14] Yeah, thank you so much for having me here. I'm really excited to be here to talk about that, because that is a common desire for people who stumble across this method. They have already had bad conversations, they've damaged those relationships with their loved ones, and usually they're trying to pick up the pieces. But if we can get these tools into people's hands before, ideally before they have those bad conversations and jeopardize the relationships, that's even better. But even if you've had a poor conversation with somebody or jeopardized, you can still recover from it using these tools. And probably what will happen is once you start realizing how to use these tools, you're going to never want to go back to the old way of engaging with people, which is usually debating with them and arguing with them and comparing verses in the holy book to say how silly it is or something along those lines. So this is a different approach, and it's counterintuitive, too. A lot of people think that I should be giving people the facts that I found convincing because they will find them as well. And that's one of the quickest ways to shut down the conversation if you go about it that way. So I'm very excited to be here. Thank you so much for flying me out again to talk. Find out a little bit. To find out a little bit more about myself, which is what we did yesterday and now today to get into the nuts and bolts of se.

John Dehlin [00:06:32] All right.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:06:32] Yeah. Looking forward to it.

John Dehlin [00:06:33] Beautiful. Okay. And then later, we're going to have the one, the only Sean McCraney sit down with Anthony Magnabosco, and. And they're going to do street epistemology together. So that's going to be super fun. We're really stoked. All right, so, Anthony, let's back up. This is going to be slightly repetitive because we covered this a bit yesterday and you just talked about it a bit from the top. What are. Just tell us flat out, what are the conversations that are not often helpful and why are they not helpful? That then led you to want to create street. That led you to want to create street epistemology. What should people never do?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:07:13] Probably Things that you should never do

John Dehlin [00:07:15] or that aren't helpful, let's just say that aren't helpful.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:07:17] Yeah. The things that people tend to do that aren't helpful is to share with your loved ones or even a stranger, if you discover that they want to talk with you about this belief is to provide them with the reasons that you found convincing. That's kind of a crapshoot. You could get lucky and maybe offer a reason why you decided that you can't believe this stuff anymore. And they may also find it compelling. But more likely than not, they have other reasons. They have different reasons for thinking that this stuff is true. So one of the biggest mistakes that we make is discussing reasons that don't have any bearing whatsoever on the person's certainty that their belief claim is true, which can lead to frustration on both sides. Like if I'm the one having the belief and I'm being asked about reasons that aren't my reasons, I would be kind of perplexed. Why are we talking about this? And if I'm the questioner, I'm likely going to get frustrated because I'm not seeing any progress in the conversation because I'm not talking about the reasons that are their reasons. So that's one of the biggest things. Another thing that we tend to do, I think, is we tend to let these conversations go on way too long. With the SE approach, I found that shorter conversations are better, where you can spend five or ten minutes, you've established trust and rapport, and you ask your good question, you notice a moment of reflection, and that's usually a good indication of when to end the talk, and then offer to meet again with the idea that you've stimulated their thinking about their thoughts. And the best thing to do is back off and let them think about it. But what we tend to do is if we notice a moment of reflection, we tend to pile on and keep asking more questions. It could be really addictive. When you see somebody pondering belief that you don't think is right or correct, and they do, and you notice that they're thinking about it, it could be really tough to stop the conversation. That's probably another mistake that we make. There's probably several more that I can get into if you wanted me to.

John Dehlin [00:09:17] No, those are good. Yeah, yeah. So we do conversations wrong in so many ways regarding all sorts of beliefs. And so street epistemology seeks to help people have more effective conversations. Yeah, that's it. So give us the. The foundational kind of philosophical underpinnings of street epistemology. You mentioned Socratic method. Give us the foundations.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:09:43] Well, the. The foundation of se, I suppose, starts with the idea that we likely can't ever say that we know anything for certain, that there's value in uncertainty. There's value in saying, I don't know. That's probably the biggest. One of the biggest things. Another, I guess, foundation of SE is that we tend to approach our conversations with the idea that there's an objective truth, that our beliefs are not just a matter of opinion. We can have beliefs that are opinions, but when we have beliefs that are fact claims about reality, that claim is either true or not true. It can't be both. So that's another assumption that we have. And then there's several assumptions. As I'm kind of thinking back to the course that we're writing in, we have a list of like 10 assumptions that we make. Another assumption is that people are actually separate from their beliefs. So I'm a human, and I'm simply acquiring beliefs as I'm navigating life. And if I get rid of a belief, I'm still a person who might just now hold a different belief or think that that belief is less likely to be true. So we try to make a distinction between the belief and the person. So we want to disentangle ourselves from our beliefs so that we can critically examine them. And that's what we do in se. We want to explore the person's reasoning process that they used to arrive at their conclusion. So we're not going after the conclusion. We're going after the method that they use to confirm that the. That their conclusion is true. It's a big shift in the approach.

John Dehlin [00:11:21] It's. It's radical in the sense that it's going to the roots. Yeah, right. Of their beliefs.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:26] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] Yeah. Not radical in the sense of, like, being extreme, but.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:31] Right. Radical in that. Typical engagement is we usually tend to argue about the claim itself or the definitions of words or things along those lines. And with se, we're kind of along for the ride. Yeah. So like with se, with street epistemology, we're not so much focused on the claim, but how they concluded that their claim is true. And that's a big shift in thinking, because what we tend to do is argue the claim, and we don't really get to the meat of what's propping it all up. And that's what we really try to do, but we try to make it a collaborative process as well. I want to work with you to get down to the foundation. And sometimes for many people, this is the first time that they've explored their foundation. Because sometimes they just realize, oh, I'm going to church every week and I'm doing all these prayers and I guess I have this belief. And a lot of people don't take the time to consider, well, why? Why do I have this? Do I have it because I think it's true or for some other reason? And that's the exploration that we try to go on with our conversation partner.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] And so the word epistemology is a 10 cent word, as some would say. So we talked about this yesterday, but tell our listeners what that word means.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:45] Yeah, epistemology is officially the study of knowledge. When we're talking about epistemology in street epistemology, we're interested in the manner with which you check the quality of your reasons. So if we identify a claim, I think God is real, for example, and then we identify your main reason, that contributes to your confidence that that claim is correct, let's say it says so in this book, we're interested in how you concluded that that's a good reason. Do you have the ability to test that reason in some way? And that's usually where the reflection happens. Because a lot of people may have never, a lot of people may have never performed a test in the first place, or their idea of what a test is is a little off, possibly. Like, well, yeah, I prayed and I got the feeling and that confirmed it for me that it was true, that was my test. So it's asking questions to take a look and see if your process that you use for confirming those reasons is reliable and robust. Could somebody use that exact same process for confirming a similar reason, but arrive at a different conclusion about a different God? And if they can do that, then there's possible liabilities with your reasoning that you've used to get to your conclusion. But it's not like we say, aha, so you're wrong. Usually we'll help the person possibly discover that that's the case. And then we end the talk so that they can think about it. Give them some time, invite them to come back. Because maybe they have a completely different reason when you meet with them a second time. Or maybe they've actually lowered their confidence in their claim because you've caused them to think about it.

John Dehlin [00:14:24] I mean, when I'm thinking about the way Mormonism works, well, most of, most importantly, you're born into it. Like most of the active, orthodox, super passionate Mormons were born into it. And so they were conditioned from a very young age or taught or educated, depending on what word you want to use, that the church is true and all your friends and family know it is true. And they all talk about their knowledge about the church being true every week in church and five times during the week as you're growing up. And so everybody around you knows it's true. And then all of the social reinforcers are conditioning you, along with the education to also conclude that it's true.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:15:10] Why would you ever question it?

John Dehlin [00:15:11] Right.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:15:12] That's, that's the situation for a lot of people is that they've never even considered to question these things, which in and of itself I think is a problem. But usually if you find yourself in a situation where you can use this approach, you can ask the person, would you mind if I questioned you about these things? And hopefully they're amenable to it. And if so, you're going to probably have a good talk.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] And just. I don't want to give the ending away, but most Mormons who are raised Mormon, they get to this point in adolescence when, where, where they're smart enough to say, well, I guess lots of other people raised in lots of other faiths believe passionately what they were taught. So how do I know that this is my testimony as we call it in Mormonism, versus something that my parents just gave me, borrowed light, as it's called in Mormonism. And so we'll go to girls camp or we'll go to youth conference or we'll go to, you know, we'll read the Book of Mormon and we're taught that the Holy Ghost, which is God's right hand person, if, if you feel in a religious context, setting, reading the Book of Mormon, attending church, going to the temple, whatever it is, youth conference, girls camp, if you're in a religious Mormon context and you feel things like joy, peace, calm, tingling feelings, that that is the Holy Ghost from God bearing witness to you, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is God's one true church on the earth, that Joseph Smith was God's one true prophet in the modern era and that the Book of Mormon is God's true scripture and the most correct book on the face of the earth. That's. And so once you have that feeling and you've been taught to associate that with the church being true, then you're, you're often locked in for sure. And that's how it happens in the Mormon born into the covenant sort of scenario. And then there's a slight derivation of that which is kind of you, you convert to the church at some point because you stumble on the missionaries or you have a cute Mormon girl or boy that you fall in love with and you, you know, and then you meet with the missionaries and you have the discussions, and somehow at some point along the way, you're told about Moroni's promise. And you're told that if you feel something very good during this, this missionary discussion or while reading the Book of Mormon, that's the Holy Ghost. And that means you should get baptized in the church, and then people do. So that's kind of how Mormons are conditioned to know that's. That's Mormon epistemology. If you feel right, tingly, warm, overwhelming, positive emotion, or. What is the other word for that type of emotion?

Guest 7 [00:18:00] Elevated emotion.

John Dehlin [00:18:01] Elevated emotion. Thank you, Kara. If you feel elevated emotion, okay, that's the Holy Ghost testifying to you that it's true. Kara, would you add anything to what I said?

Guest 7 [00:18:08] Yeah. And I think music is also a big part of that. Mormons love music. We have Mormon Tabernacle Choir. We have General Conference. We learn about the lives of the prophets and just what good human beings come out of Mormonism. And so you're very much conditioned that if, like, this is the path of God, because look at all these happy families. Look at all the way that the music makes you feel. It's just, it's an entire lifestyle, a whole package where you see with like, kind of blinders on of what a good life leads to. And then you do have, like, that motivated reasoning to keep feeling the spirit, to keep going down this path. You're not ever really exposed to alternative, other types of religions, other secular ways of living. So it's just kind of compounding on each other year after year in your youth, to the point where either you get married in the temple in your early 20s, go on a mission or late teens, or go on a mission, and that's where you, the church, really has to lock you in right then because you're having young kids and stuff. So.

John Dehlin [00:19:01] But the best way program, the best way to reinforce an epistemology that's been given to you is to have you become the teacher for that, for that doctrine or philosophy. So if you really, if you really want to lock someone into an ideology, have them teach it. And that's why the Mormon missionary program and you interview Mormon missionaries. I was lucky on.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:19:25] I was lucky to run into a few. Just coincidentally, they happened to be walking by. And that was interesting because they mentioned very Similar things. And this was a surprise for me because I've interviewed people from all different kinds of religions, but the LDS Church I think, might be the only one that is explicit in how you can test the truth of it. Now personally, I think going off of a feeling is a horrible way to confirm a test, but it's really great because in SE we do want to explore how you are confirming that this stuff is true. So like a really good question would be something along the lines of can somebody experience a feeling that could be confused for the Holy Spirit, but in reality is a normal human emotional feeling? And most people will say yes to that. And then a good SE question is, well, how can we tell the difference? Or how do you tell the difference? If you had a feeling of burning in your bosom, for example, and it crossed your mind, is this from myself or is this from the Holy Spirit? How do you go about figuring it out? What would it look like if it wasn't true? How would it be any different? And then again, it's stepping back and letting the person think about it and reflect on it and then give you their answer. And I would listen very closely to their answer, I'd probably repeat it back, and then we'd go on from there.

John Dehlin [00:20:51] So that leads me. So epistemology is how we know things,

Anthony Magnabosco [00:20:54] how we know things.

John Dehlin [00:20:55] And, and so street epistemology is rooted in helping people under. Become more aware and intentional and thoughtful about what they think they know and what they say they know and how they perfect seem they know it.

Guest 7 [00:21:10] Right.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:21:10] I couldn't say it any better. That's exactly what SE is. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] And then what is the street part?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:21:15] The street part is a bit of a misnomer. I think the author who started it or coined the term, which is for those who didn't know, Peter Boghossian. Dr. Peter Boghossian in 2013 wrote a book called A Manual for Creating Atheists. And I think on the very first couple pages he mentioned street epistemology. And I think he defines street meaning layperson, non academic, simple, that type of thing, casual. This isn't an academic pursuit. It can really be done by anybody. Which appealed to me because I'm not an academic. I don't have a degree in philosophy or anything along those lines, or psychology.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] But you're freaking smart. Okay?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:21:53] I wish I did. In hindsight, I wish I did have a degree in psychology, so that appealed to me. A tool that could be used by any person to challenge deeply held beliefs was extremely appealing to me. So that's the street part of it. It doesn't mean go out on the street and evangelize for atheism or even

John Dehlin [00:22:10] critical thinking, but that's how you kind of make, Make God a name for yourself. As you would go do that.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:22:15] I was looking for examples. So I literally went out on the street. I would go to in front of the Alamo, like we talked about yesterday, and talk to the street preachers or on college campuses and quiet trails to talk to people because I wanted to see what are the people in my community thinking and maybe more importantly, how are they thinking? Are they thinking carefully about their thoughts? And one thing that I discovered in talking to like hundreds of people, thousands maybe. Regardless of the age, the reasons that we give to back up our conclusions are not very well thought out across the board. And you would think on a deeply held belief that those would be the ones that we spent the most time on. But it seems like believers don't, they don't spend a lot of time on it now. Non believers do. Once you realize I've had this deeply held belief for so long and it's been so core to my identity and now I'm starting to realize it's probably not real, then you, I think, find yourself maybe thinking about your thoughts more. But the typical believer, I don't think really does.

John Dehlin [00:23:16] Yeah. Okay. So we're going to be bringing Sean McCraney in for you to illustrate this. And as someone who's trying to architect a meaningful podcast, I'm struck by the idea that us talking about street epistemology is very conceptual. Because if we just did it, people are going to get it way faster than if we talk about what it is.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:23:38] But that's why I went out to record videos, John, because I wanted to show people how to do it. Because talking about it and explaining it gets lost. But if you can observe it, then it really starts dawning on you.

SE Steps, Ethics, and Role-Play Preparation

John Dehlin [00:23:49] Which makes me wonder if we should do some like, light, light role play as a way to just set up what you're about to do with Sean, actually. But also you had some ideas, Kara, so I, I want to make sure you feel okay about that because you also had some other things you wanted to do.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:24:02] Whatever you guys come up with, I think we can use as a vehicle for me to outline the steps of SC so we can, can go wherever you guys want.

John Dehlin [00:24:08] What do you think here?

Guest 7 [00:24:09] You wanted to start a role play right now?

John Dehlin [00:24:11] Well, here's what I'm thinking. Let's not do a full on role play. Yeah, let's do a super light role play.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:24:17] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:24:17] Just as a way for us to tell our viewers and listeners what they're about to experience with Sean, to give them an idea of what to look for.

Guest 7 [00:24:26] Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:26] Does that make sense?

Guest 7 [00:24:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] And then if we want to follow up, Cara, with your idea, we can do that after Sean.

Guest 7 [00:24:31] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] Is that okay? Okay. So what are you thinking?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:24:34] Well, what I'm thinking is that the situation is a factor here. So if this is a one on one interview with a stranger, it's going to be a completely different approach. Well, I'll still be using the steps, but more emphasis will be placed on certain areas. If I knew the person or this was a loved one or a family member. So if this was a family member, I might say, would you mind if I use an interview technique with you called street epistemology to challenge your. Your view that you have here? I want to slip out of our normal conversation mode, slip to an interview mode where I'm asking you questions maybe for five or 10 minutes and then we can end the talk and then we can just go back to our regular conversational style. Is that cool? That's probably what I would recommend for family and friends. So your scenario is kind of a factor here. So if we're going to be role playing somebody on the street or if this. Family member.

John Dehlin [00:25:26] Family member.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:25:26] Yeah. I just want to point that out at the start that.

John Dehlin [00:25:28] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:25:29] That the venue or the situation is a little bit of a factor.

John Dehlin [00:25:32] Okay. Okay. So we're not going to go deep into a role play. We're just going to kind of give a bit of an introduction to street epistemology. And it's going to be heavy where we just do some very light role play. But then you're telling us what you're about to do. Let's do that as we're is. We're interjecting. So.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:25:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:50] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:25:50] What's the scenario here?

John Dehlin [00:25:51] Okay, so here's the scenario. Okay, You've lost your faith and me. No listeners. I'm looking at listeners of yours. You've lost your faith and your parents. I'm going to play the role of dad. Kara, you're going to play the role of mom. Is that okay?

Guest 7 [00:26:08] I think it's better if it's only just one person. Right.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:11] The two on one is a little tougher. But if it's more of a realistic situation. Am I going to be the doubting LDS church member? Yes, the doubting mormon.

John Dehlin [00:26:21] You're going to represent the viewers for how they might approach and you're going

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:25] to be my parents. Basically, we'll be your parents. Do two. I think that'd be okay.

John Dehlin [00:26:29] Okay. But Karen, our participation is going to be lighter because we really want to give you a chance to explain it. And we're just going to provide structure. Not a lot of content. Give me a little structure.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:38] Sure, sure.

John Dehlin [00:26:39] Okay. Okay. So viewers, listeners, you've lost your faith. You want to come out to your parents. Let's say that they've caught on, or your spouse, and they. And they know that you've lost your faith. And so they're coming at you. They're coming at you with their doubts and their questions and their concerns. And you can feel that the conversation is. Is not going where. Where you want it to go. And so that's, That's Anthony, where you're going to kind of step in. And so we'll start. It sounds like you're going to start with informed consent. It sounds like you're going to start with kind of saying, is it okay if we try something slightly different? Is that the first?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:20] That's probably what I would say. Or say something like, mom and dad, do you have a few minutes where we can talk about things? I know I've been struggling. I know. Are they aware that I've been struggling? Am I. Am I surprising them with this information or are they aware of it?

John Dehlin [00:27:33] They know. They know. Yeah. Let's. Let's say maybe don't try epistemology in the super early stages where things are super heated, because when, when the amygdala is triggered and people are in their fight, flight or freeze mode, it's probably not the right scenario for people to be really introspective.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:51] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:27:51] And do you agree?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:52] I agree. Yeah. You want to have people calm and relaxed and they're not stressed or looking at their phones or in the middle of watching a TV program that they have the time to do it.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:28:01] The other thing too is you need to ask yourself, set and setting.

John Dehlin [00:28:03] We're talking about set and setting here.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:28:05] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:05] To borrow a term I learned from the psilocybin community.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:28:09] Oh, interesting. I need to get into that community. It's interesting to me. So. So one thing I think you need to ask yourself right away is, am I here to reveal my position and answer any questions that my parents or my family members have about my view? That might be one thing. And also, am I interested in challenging my parents or my loved ones about their position? Because there's two things going on here, my parents or my loved Ones likely have lots of questions for why I don't believe, and I'm completely fine answering and role playing how I would deal with that. But my question is, am I also interested in challenging my loved ones about their position? Is this the right moment for it? So sometimes you might want to make your initial conversation about why you don't believe, because there's probably a lot of questions that they have. What did I do wrong? How did my loved one come to this conclusion and leave the church? They're probably really struggling with a lot of guilt and remorse and that type of thing. So you might want to address that first before you switch into stage two, maybe, which is now I'm going to actually challenge them in a respectful manner about how they. Why they still think that this is true. There's two things going on here.

John Dehlin [00:29:23] Yeah.

Guest 7 [00:29:24] Yeah. And I think putting it in stage two kind of context is a good way because there's a lot of grief that comes with. Mormon families have a. It's a high demand fundamentalist religion. And so when you do leave it, there's a lot of emotion and grief or something attached to it. So this is probably, yes. Something that's more down the road. When your parents. My parents still think that they can get me back, even though I do this for a living. But when they accept. Yeah, that they accept that no amount of really convincing is gonna get you back in the church. But again, most Mormon parents probably think, no matter what, if they give good, good reasons. So maybe that's a reason that they would enter into this conversation. Cause like, if I could give foundational reasons of why I believe these things, maybe I can get them back.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:05] So that's great. That's a good thing. Also to ask, is what is their motivation for wanting to have this conversation? Well, whose motivation is it? Is it me as the non believer that's motivated to talk to my parents to challenge them about their view, or am I trying to take away some of their worry? What is the motivation of the parents or the loved ones? Are they trying to bring me back into the fold? Are they trying to better understand me? Is it both? You really kind of have to. And it may not even be a bad idea to talk about what your goals are before you even. In fact, that's the first step of street epistemology, is you ask yourself, what am I hoping to achieve here? What would be a success? What are the different factors at play here? Taking a step back and really thinking about it from a broad perspective.

John Dehlin [00:30:49] Okay, so step. So yeah, let's start.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:51] We call it step zero, basically.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] Okay, so what's step zero of epistemology?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:55] Step zero is a street epistemology is essentially having a dialogue with yourself about what you're hoping to achieve and what you would consider a success and then considering other things that might be at play, including what are your goals, what are the attitudes of the people involved? Am I dealing with open minded people or very closed minded people? Is it a one on one? Is it a two on one? How much time is available? That type of stuff. That's like the first step.

John Dehlin [00:31:20] And I think you probably have some suggestions of what the goals shouldn't be correct.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:31:24] Well, the goals really are up to the participant. So try to think of street epistemology as a tool set. These are tools that I can employ to accomplish lots of things you could probably use. You could use SE with a loved one to show that they don't have any standing in their view that God is real, for example. And that could begin the deconversion process for them. So that could be a goal of somebody using se. It all really depends on your goal.

John Dehlin [00:31:51] But we talked about ethics yesterday and it might not be from a mental health professional standpoint. It's not ethical to try and take someone's beliefs away from them. So I would have guessed you would say you wouldn't recommend that ethically as a goal for se.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:10] Here's my. It's really tough because you can use the tool for that and a lot of people do.

John Dehlin [00:32:16] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:16] And I've even used it for that. So if I think somebody has a belief that's not true and it's harmful to them and others and they're actively promoting it, that crosses the threshold for me, the ethical threshold to be like, I think I have an obligation to talk with this person. But here's what I think makes it most ethical is revealing what your goals are.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] So I could say at the outset.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:40] At the outset.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] Oh, okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:42] Which can be very.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] Yeah, yeah, that changes it.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:44] Hey, mom and dad, just so you know, I've learned this technique of questioning that could really allow you to reflect on this to the point where you may start to question it and doubt it and want to leave it alone. Are you okay with that?

John Dehlin [00:32:55] I almost worry that that makes it a non starter with.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:58] It can. It can. But if you want to make it ethical, it might be the thing that you need to do now. You could probably soften the delivery of it or spread it. Spread that out over the course of several weeks to prepare them for that Possibility.

John Dehlin [00:33:09] But I just have to admit it

Anthony Magnabosco [00:33:11] could result in a very defensive conversation partner from the start.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] I really just like the idea that you kind of shared yesterday, which is that you're just trying to help them become more reflective about and conscious about why they believe what they do, period, and let them have their own journey with it.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:33:29] That's like. That's probably, like, the first initial entry point into SE until you realize that you can weaponize it if you wanted to.

John Dehlin [00:33:37] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:33:37] And that's where the. Early on we're developing this course for se and one of the modules is Ethical considerations, and it's one of the very early modules, because we know that's a big deal.

Guest 7 [00:33:47] Yeah, yeah. But I think it's worth it to invest the time to have these, like you said, ethical conversations, hard conversations with our parents, because Mormonism has so many beliefs within it that are tied to really, you know, men and women, sexism, homophobia, being, like, transgender people. And there's just so many things that are tied up to it. And so I'll be asking my parents questions in a kind of a light SE format, because I want to get to the root of why they believe so strongly about the Book of Mormon that it really happened in this American heartland, that, you know, Native Americans were cursed. Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:34:27] It's racist, you're saying?

Guest 7 [00:34:28] Yes. Like, there's. There's. I wanted to. I wanted to put the time and investment into it because my parents believe blatantly racist things about Native Americans, about the curse of Cain with black people. And if I can nuance their belief around, maybe you shouldn't believe it so dogmatically like you had before. It's worth putting in the time.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:34:46] Well, we talked about dogmatism yesterday, and this idea of being 100% sure and try to think of beliefs as we're using a tree metaphor for the course. So these things, like, where do I stand on gay marriage or trans rights? These are branches of a tree where if you follow the root back, it usually comes down to the religion. So that's why when I'm engaging with somebody, I'm interested in why they've concluded that they're higher power is real, because it has implications for so many of those other branches. But back to. Just really quickly to circle back to the ethical part of it. You can use SE to change people's minds. But I think. Here's where I think it makes it acceptable, especially if you're obtaining informed consent, which is probably like the second step. We call it, like, step two is letting People know what you're up to and seeing the making sure that they agree to it. But ultimately people's beliefs can only be changed by themselves. They are the only ones that can do it.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] That's right.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:45] That's right. So I can ask you all the questions in the world that are great questions and it's up to you to decide what you want to do with it.

John Dehlin [00:35:51] Yeah, they're grown us adults.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:52] It's not like I've got this list of questions that it's guaranteed that if I ask them, you're going to deconvert. It doesn't work that way.

John Dehlin [00:35:58] No. In fact, it can often backfire.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:00] It can often backfire, especially if you haven't done the initial steps of thinking about the ethical considerations and obtaining conform. Informed consent. Obtaining informed consent as well as building rapport. You really want to have a nice relationship with this person because when people are open and honest, you're going to get real true answers, the true representation of what their belief structure looks like. And if you haven't done the legwork, the questions won't land. But ultimately what happens with those questions is up to your conversation partner.

John Dehlin [00:36:33] Yeah. So the scenario that I just wanted to lay out in the ethics conversation is let's just say the person who was a drug addict, an opiate addict, opiate addict, in religion for them, in their minds was what pulled them out. Or they've had a loved one die and it made them super depressed and they didn't want to live and then religion is what pulled them out. Or it's a 90 year old grandma dying of cancer and she's never going to change her views probably. And even if she did, it might not even be good for her. I think I've seen you do se enough and I've talked to you enough to know that there are scenarios when you start going down the road of asking questions, you touch on points where you're like, whoa, I don't even think it would be good for us to continue this conversation. And if I had known you were believing for these reasons, I probably wouldn't have even started. That's what I was trying to get at by saying that there are some times where you're just like, yeah, we probably shouldn't have this conversation at all.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:37:35] Right, True.

John Dehlin [00:37:37] When are those?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:37:38] Well, it's whenever it crosses your mind, maybe I shouldn't be having this talk. When that thought goes through your mind

John Dehlin [00:37:45] that it'll do more harm to the person than good. Right?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:37:47] Exactly. When you think if I ask a Few more questions. They may really start to doubt this, and I don't know if they're prepared for it yet. So then what you can do is you can shift to what you're worried about. Like with your guests here today, we talked a little bit about, I don't know his background, but if somebody's giving the indication that they would harm themselves or other people, then without their beliefs, without holding this belief or thinking that the belief is true, then I think I would ask them if they would like to shift to explore why they think that that's the case. So we're no longer talking about what's bolstering their reason. We're exploring why they think they need to have it. Okay, so you can still make progress because some people will say, well, yeah, I literally would harm other people if I didn't have this, or myself or theirselves. But with a little questioning, you may realize that they were just taught that they were just taught to think that I would harm other people or myself if I didn't believe that it's true.

John Dehlin [00:38:43] Yeah. We're taught as Mormons that without the church, we would cheat on our spouses and lie and steal and kill people. Because why wouldn't you? And many Christians say that to me?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:38:51] And you're surrounded by people who are living the believing life and they have stable marriages. So everything that you see bolsters that idea. But it's not until you really think about it, like, yeah, how would I be any different if I didn't think that this was true? It's a question that a lot of people don't ask themselves, but it could be an important one.

John Dehlin [00:39:11] Okay, so we've got step zero is

Anthony Magnabosco [00:39:14] pre prep, figuring out what's going on. Ethical considerations. The second step is doing, do I have informed consent?

John Dehlin [00:39:20] Informed consent.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:39:21] Do they understand what's going on and are they on board with it? Okay, that's two things. Right? It's not just being on board with it, but you wanna make sure that they understand what's going on. And rapport. These are like the first two steps.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] Rapport.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:39:34] Building some rapport, some genuine rapport, not fake, how's the weather? But like really connecting with them if you can.

John Dehlin [00:39:41] And Mormon missionaries are taught it's called building relationships of trust. BRT is the term. It's actually can be used as a manipulative sales technique. Oh, look at that picture of you and your cute family. Tell me about your dog. What's your dog's name? It can be a cynical.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:39:58] It can be A fake thing. Our advice is to only ask questions that you really want to know the answers to. Don't make up stuff. What brings you here today? How long have you known John? That type of thing. That would be good question to ask people and really try to try to distinguish the person from the beliefs that you'll be exploring later is a really big part of it. And then the third step, I suppose, is establishing the claim. Like figuring out what is the fact claim about reality that this person is making. And that could be several conversations sometimes, because sometimes people's conception of God might be wildly different than what you've expected. I've noticed that a lot when I'm interviewing people on the street. Getting into definition of a word that you would think is a very basic word can be wildly different. Now, it may be fairly similar in a culture like this here in Salt Lake City where everyone's believing in the same God and they're mostly of the same religion. You probably won't get a lot of pushback on that. But actually figuring out what the claim is, working out the terms, defining these words. And here's the key part of it, I suppose, is even though I may have a different definition of one of these words, it's my conversation partner's definition that's important when we're exploring their reasoning. So the last thing that you would ever want to do is say, well, it seems that we have a disagreement of what this word means. Let's go with my definition as the questioner. Why would you ever want to do that? You're exploring their beliefs, their claims, their reasoning process. So going off of their terms is really good. And maybe at this third stage, this identifying the claim stage is actually, I think we've called it, I think we broke it up. Now it's this fourth stage of identifying a person's level of confidence that the claim is true. You've probably heard this on se videos where we ask, on a scale from 1 to 7 or from 0 to 10 or 0 to 100, how sure are you that this is really true? And a lot of people will just instinctively say 100, maybe because they think that they should, or they think that there's an obligation possibly to do it, or maybe they really are 100% sure that this is real. A little bit more of a reflectful thinker might say, well, I'm 99% sure. Sometimes you get people say, I'm 120% sure. It's off the charts. I'm so sure that this is true. But it's just a guide. It's to get a sense of where they are and you could possibly revisit it, but it's not a stick in the mud. Goal of Now I need to see how we can move this. This is a self reported assessment of where they are in terms of their certainty. And they may have really good reasons for being sure that that's true. So it could be really tempting to try to think that the belief scale confidence level thing is a goal of ese, that that's your marker for measuring your progress. I suppose it depends on your goal if that is your goal to move somebody along on a belief. But we find it's a really good way of framing the conversation that I'm not interested in the binary proposition of whether the God exists or not. I think we both agree that the God either exists or doesn't. I'm interested in how sure you are of your conclusion on that question. And that's what we're doing with the confidence scale.

John Dehlin [00:43:08] So for those who haven't watched your videos yet, you're usually standing on the street with a whiteboard.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:43:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] Somebody walks up and, and we'll come back, we'll circle back to the believing parents. Let's just say it's a. Oh yeah,

Anthony Magnabosco [00:43:19] we just get off of that.

John Dehlin [00:43:20] No, no, no, I do. Let's come back to it after Sean because I think it is really important. That's what our audience is going to care about most. But just to lay down the architecture of se prior to Sean coming, you're, you're standing on the street with the clipboard, with a whiteboard. Somebody walks up and let's not go into the detail to role play. They'll say, oh, hey, what are you doing? You'll say, sure. At an architecture level you'll say, so

Anthony Magnabosco [00:43:45] just, just for your audience, just so that they are aware the, the standing on the street with a whiteboard to initiate a talk is something that I did to get examples, to show people how to do se in their daily lives.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] We don't need a whiteboard.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:43:56] They don't need to go out on the street and do this. So I just, I want to get that out of the way. But so when I was going out on the street and talking with people, I would ask them, so let's do, let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:44:05] So. Hi. Hello, I'm John.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:44:07] What's up, John?

John Dehlin [00:44:08] And we're not going to actually role play. Let's talk about it at a outline structure. So I come up to you and Say, hi, I'm John. Then you do what?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:44:16] I would also introduce myself and ask them if they have a little time for a short chat.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] And then I would say, sure, yeah, I'll do a little chat now.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:44:23] If I got that kind of response, I'd probably say, well, would you like to know a little bit more about what I'm doing? Because usually people are wondering about that.

John Dehlin [00:44:29] Yeah, yeah, tell me a little bit.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:44:30] Well, what I like to do is pick a belief that you think is true, a belief that causes you to act out because you think that it's true. So you know something fairly significant in your life that you think is true, and I'd like to ask you questions to explore how you concluded that it's actually true.

John Dehlin [00:44:47] So then I say, well, I believe Jesus is our Lord and Savior and the Holy Bible is his infallible word.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:44:52] And then you say, I would probably repeat that back. Okay, right.

John Dehlin [00:44:56] So repeat it back.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:44:57] I would say, so if I'm understanding you correctly, you think that there's this God named Jesus, and are you saying the main reason why you think that that God is real is because it says so in the Bible and it's

John Dehlin [00:45:09] been manifested to me by the Holy Ghost?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:45:11] Okay, okay. Of those two, when you say it's been manifested to you with the Holy Ghost, what exactly are you saying? Is that how you confirm that it's true?

John Dehlin [00:45:20] You've written it on my heart.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:45:22] He's written it on your heart. What do you mean exactly by that?

John Dehlin [00:45:26] He's slipping in. He's slipping in. Okay, so you start to drill down.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:45:31] I want to understand my terms. So you said something that a lot of your listeners may know exactly what you mean by that, but I don't. And even if I did, it's still useful for me to explain it because you might get three Mormons who have different definitions of what that means for sure. So I want to understand what you mean by it written in your heart.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] So you ask me what I believe, I tell you, you repeat it back to me, and you start asking a little bit more details to really be able to pin it down.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:45:59] Right now, normally, I probably would have spent a little time at the start building a little bit of rapport. This is one area where I tend to forget doing when I'm doing street interviews, because I'm trying to keep it very brief. But hopefully we've made a connection and you're on board with what we're doing and all this other stuff.

John Dehlin [00:46:14] So once I've answered kind of the basics of my belief to your satisfaction. You repeat it back to me, we solidify on it.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:46:21] I might ask you how sure you are from when you're sure, and then

John Dehlin [00:46:23] you'd ask the certainty. And so I'd say, I'm more certain than if I saw Jesus now. I'm more certain than if he were standing in front of me. So 120%.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:46:34] Okay. I don't usually push back too much when somebody goes above and beyond. Like, it could be tempting to say, but you can't be more than 100% sure. That's dogmatism. It could be really tempting to kind of slip into that. But what I'm getting is that you really think it's true. And then what would you say is the main reason why? I would ask them why they think it. Is it because it says so in the book, or is there something else going on?

John Dehlin [00:46:57] I've read the Bible and the Holy Ghost has manifested it to me. Something like that.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:47:02] Okay, is. Are those two separate? This is what I'm wondering. Are you. Are you raising two separate reasons or

John Dehlin [00:47:11] what's the most common answer you get from an evangelical?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:47:14] It says so in the book.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:47:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:16] All right. So let's go with that. Let's go with that. So that's on the book.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:47:18] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:47:19] And we're just trying to lay out the main principles.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:47:21] So usually what I would do here is to make sure that I'm understanding properly and then ask something along the lines of a good outside test. Would be helpful here. If we ran into somebody from a completely different religion and they were coming to the conclusion that a completely different God existed, and we asked them, we collaboratively, we asked them how they concluded that it was true, and they said that it's written in their holy book. What would you think about their reasoning? I would ask them to. So we're framing your view or this person's view through the lens of somebody else who's coming to a different conclusion. And by the way, it's not me. I didn't put that on myself. This is some fictional person that's walking by.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] So you would say to me something about the Muslim. Give the sentence.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:48:09] Usually I'll go Hindu. Because the monotheistic religions, usually people say, but it's all the same God or something like that. So usually I say, let's say a Hindu happened to be walking by and they read in their holy book that Vishnu is real. Do you think that they're factually correct in their conclusion? I would ask them something along the line, I want to inspire them to be thinking about that person's reasoning that is also their reasoning. In essence, they're thinking about their own reasoning process, but without the pressure. We're thinking about somebody else, this hypothetical person walking by.

John Dehlin [00:48:43] And so I can imagine a couple responses. One might be, well, God's everywhere, and God manifests himself in different forms to different people. That could be one route. Another route could be, well, they're just wrong. Satan is a really a powerful deceiver, and sometimes people are deceived. Or there's just the humble one, which is like, I don't want to judge other people's experiences. Everyone can have their own.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:49:07] Okay, so if I. If that latter one is really interesting, sometimes the response that you'll get, especially with younger people, it seems, is this idea of, well, everybody is correct, like, a lot. I kind of get a mix. Then I say something like, well, that Hindu is just as correct as I, and who am I to say that they're wrong? So if I ever get a sense that somebody's thinking in relativistic terms, then I explore if they agree that there's a factual truth to the claim that either the God exists or not.

John Dehlin [00:49:37] So how would you say that in words?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:49:38] To me, I would probably say something like, actually, I usually carry a box of Tic Tacs with me. I don't know if you've ever noticed me doing that. If I ever get the sense that somebody might be thinking in relativistic terms, which opens the door for belief without any justification whatsoever, really, when you think about it. Because if I can just believe whatever I want to make it true, which essentially is the relativistic thinking, then we've got larger issues. So I'll probably do a quick check to make sure that they're not thinking relativistically by asking in this box of candies, would you say that the total number of pieces within is either even or odd, and it can't simultaneously be both? And that is a really good way of helping people think. Like, okay, yeah, either the Vishnu God is real or it's not, or either Jehovah is real or not, or that type of thing. So it's really good to make sure that the person is thinking that truth is objective. If they don't, then that's a real big sticking point and you have to focus on that.

John Dehlin [00:50:39] Okay, so as we're now thinking back to the main steps, where do some of the other steps come into play? You said there's 10.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:50:49] Well, there's like, I would say there's. There's eight. Seven or eight.

John Dehlin [00:50:52] Okay, where do we pick up on this?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:50:54] Well, what I would do is try to get to the epistemology. Now, this is where, like, how could we actually tell which of the two. Let's say that they do agree that truth is objective and that somebody who believes in Vishnu is objectively incorrect and somebody who believes in my God is objectively correct. I might ask something like, well, what do you think is the best way for us to go about determining which of the two of you is correct? If you're both using similar processes to get to different conclusions, and we acknowledge that at least one of those two conclusions is incorrect, how do we tell the difference between the two? And it's that how question. It's getting to their reasoning. This is getting to their epistemology. How are they verifying that the reason that they're giving is a good one? Because we've just produced this scenario where there's this hypothetical person that thinks differently.

John Dehlin [00:51:46] And I don't know how to channel evangelicals so much, but I can imagine something like, you know what? That's what faith is. Faith is something where you don't always have all the evidence, but you feel it and you come to know it and you can't really explain it. And if it were scientific, it would be science, but it's not. It's the realm of spirituality. And so spirituality is different, and I just know it, and I can't always explain it to your satisfaction. Okay, is that normal or not?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:52:12] Oh, no, it's very normal.

John Dehlin [00:52:13] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:52:13] So, yeah, usually faith is one of the last bastions of holding on to the belief.

John Dehlin [00:52:19] So I went to. I went there quick.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:52:20] You went there. I mean, that's usually where people do tend to go. And it can be tempting to want to drive the conversation and say, like very early on, I might say, well, is this all based on faith? Don't do that. Don't bring the conversation to where you think it's going to go or should go well, because it's their belief. Why would I want to misrepresent your belief or introduce concepts that you're not bringing up? Now, faith may be a reason why you think that it's true, but you just forgot to bring it up or didn't cross your mind. I suppose that's possible. It's one of the reasons why we want to try to keep the conversation short and invite people back so that they can be coming back. Like, somebody may have forgotten to bring up faith. As a reason or something. But then they saw me out there again and they come back and want to talk about it. But yeah, faith is usually one of those last bastions.

John Dehlin [00:53:06] Okay then before faith, what if I say I heard, I think it was the missionary, one of the more of the missionaries. He's like, well, I lived a dark path. I drank, I smoked, I had sex. I was super miserable and happy. So then I planted the seed of faith and I started living the Mormon gospel and my life blossomed. And so by living the word, I came to know it was true.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:53:29] Sure, sure.

John Dehlin [00:53:29] What if they say that?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:53:30] Very, very common. So that's an appeal to personal experience in a way. One of the first things that you should do in a personal experience.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] What's wrong with that?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:53:39] Well, we can get to it. I mean, there might, maybe there isn't anything wrong with it, but possibly there is. One of the first things that I would do is acknowledge their hardship. So, you know, don't just blow that off and say, well, you know, it wasn't that big of a deal. Like, I'm really sorry that that happened to you. Like be genuine in it. I'm really sorry that you struggle with it and I'm genuinely glad that you're better today. However, I am wondering, I'm curious if somebody could struggle with some things, believe in something and see their life improve as a result of it and the thing that they're believing in is not true. Could somebody have an improved life based on a belief that's not true? Is it possible?

John Dehlin [00:54:20] So you're continually sort of whatever it is they believe or why whyever it is they believe it. You, you ask about people in other contexts with different sets of beliefs, whether, whether people could arrive at the same conclusions for a totally different set of content based reasons.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:54:41] Well, it's essentially, yeah, it's painting a picture, using their justification so that they can see it very clearly. Right. You're constructing a painting of their beliefs for them to look at and inspect and see. Is this really, is this a good, reliable, robust way to say that this is true? Like for example, a question like that could elicit a response of yeah, I suppose it is possible for somebody to believe something that is true, that isn't, and see their life improve as a result. Therefore, maybe my improved life, even though I value it and cherish it and I think it's wonderful, maybe that's not the best way or the best reason to say that this claim is actually true. If people can achieve that without this specific belief. But it's not me telling them this. It's them discovering this on their own as they're relating their beliefs to you.

Guest 7 [00:55:35] Because it's that language that's really important, where you say, is it possible that they can just, like, go off into kind of a hypothetical? You're not asking them, like, do you realize how stupid it sounds? Like you're not putting on any kind of projection onto, like, you know, the outsiders test, just giving them the possibility, like you said, the framework that if they were to apply the same way that they arrived at the truth, if it was applied to a different religion, would they still really think that that's a good method of arriving at truth? That's why I think, like, SE has really getting the language is really important

Anthony Magnabosco [00:56:07] on that Language is really critical. Like, even. Even words like we. How could we figure this out? It shifts it into a collaborative thing. Like, well, how would you figure it out?

John Dehlin [00:56:18] We is good or we is not

Anthony Magnabosco [00:56:19] good, we is better. Okay, I want to work with you to figure out how you concluded that this is true. Because if we realize that your reasoning process is suspect, I want to help you discover this. I'll actually tell people this literally to their face. However, if your reasoning process is sound and good, I may want to consider adopting your belief and believing it too. So approaching these conversations from a place of openness is really good because I think that that comes through with your language, and I think it helps people stay open if they think that you're open to their views. And I really think that you should be when you're going about this.

John Dehlin [00:56:54] What do you do when somebody tries to slip into content? So whether it's trying to talk about evolution or it's this, this or that verse in the Bible, King James says, blah, blah, blah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:57:05] Right.

John Dehlin [00:57:05] What do you do when people try and pull you in to a debate about content? Well, that happens, right?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:57:14] Well, sure. I mean, people like, I'm trying to drill down to their reasoning process, and some people are really focused on the message. Like, let me communicate the good news to you. Here's a good opportunity to preach or something along those lines. If that comes up, I remind them that I'm not really so much interested in the claim itself and all the good things that come from the belief. I'm interested in how you concluded that it's true. So do you mind if we go there? But if they mention evolution or what was the other example?

John Dehlin [00:57:40] Bible? Just some Bible verse. A Bible verse or something some leader said, like authority, pill authority.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:57:47] A really good question. Is something along the lines of, like, if you hadn't discovered that verse, or if you didn't observe that person say that line, or if that line happened to not be in that book, would you be just assured that this claim is factually true? And more than likely, well, yeah, but sometimes they may say, well, no. Like me, thinking that evolution is false and that things had to have been created is the biggest reason for thinking that this is true. So sometimes you get the. There's a revelation of reasons that happen in this exchange, and that's what you're really looking to find, is I want to uncover with you the biggest reason why you think that this is true. And it could be evolution. It could be something that they wrote in the book or prophecies in books or something. But doing a quick check, if we work together for the next two weeks and you realize to your satisfaction that there's good evidence for evolution, that it likely did happen, would you notice a decrease in your conclusion that God is real? You always want to try to bring it back to their certainty, their confidence that their fact claim is true. Right. Because I don't want to be talking about reasons that maybe don't contribute to this, because my goal is to help us understand how you concluded that it's true. And I want to find what those reasons are.

John Dehlin [00:59:05] Okay. Okay. So as you're thinking through your steps, what's next? Where are we?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:59:10] Usually at this point, you've hit a moment where the person is now thinking about their reasoning process.

John Dehlin [00:59:16] Hopefully.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:59:17] Yeah, it usually is almost always the case when I do it, because believers

John Dehlin [00:59:22] come to you with, like, a shield up, like a shield against themselves, like a shield between their deep inner conscious self and the words you're saying. And I'm sure there's this moment where either you do or don't see that shield kind of get removed, where they actually shift into a state of insight where they're actually processing.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:59:48] Well, I like the metaphor of the shield, actually, because the shield is the belief. And if you recall, we're not interested in the belief claim. We're interested in your reasoning process. So very early on, the shield is being put off to the side and the weapons are being put down. We're not battling here. This isn't a battle. This is a conversation to explore your reasoning process. Now people can see the implications for their shield, their belief. I suppose when you're starting to ask, sometimes you see the shield creep up where somebody like, well, exactly what are you out here doing? Or where do you stand on this claim, sometimes you get some pushback because I think people understand. Like I've never thought about how I concluded that this is a good reason and that's a good point. Like that that Hindu person is using the exact same process for Vishnu.

John Dehlin [01:00:38] And then have you seen that? I haven't seen an episode yet where somebody is like really taken back and kind of like shaken by the end. I'm sure you've got a thousand. So I'm sure that exists. But like with the Mormon missionaries, they're never going to ever let you see them sweat. Almost never. And you know the evangelical guy I saw, I don't know if his name was Caleb, but he was just like he had his buddy with him and you know, he was in preacher mode the whole time. You know what I mean?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:07] You get a lot of that. More often than not, though I think usually at this stage of the conversation there's a moment of reflection or thoughtful thinking and it might even be an extra second of pause. Especially if it's a very dug in believer who's very resolute and there's a lot at stake with this belief with them sometimes, but almost always there's that moment of thoughtfulness that happens. And then I ask myself, this is usually where me as the questioner, I ask myself, is this a good time to end it? Because it could be really tempting to keep going.

John Dehlin [01:01:39] Oh, if you reach that, that's the end for you of the conversation.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:43] It could be, yeah, it could be. Because I've recognized that if I keep pushing, it can move too fast for them.

John Dehlin [01:01:52] What do you mean by that?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:54] I think people, people need time to process these beliefs and the implications of them.

John Dehlin [01:01:59] See, that's where there's so much restraint in what you do.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:02:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:02] Because you don't. When I watch you, you're not out for blood. You care about, you seem to care about the well being of the person.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:02:11] You need to have empathy to do this. If you don't have empathy for the

John Dehlin [01:02:14] person, it can be reckless and violent.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:02:17] It can be reckless, yeah. You can do it cruel. You can do a cruel version of Vessie, I suppose. But how are you going to maintain rapport and get to the root of it and help people stay open and reflective?

John Dehlin [01:02:27] And the Hippocratic method of do no harm. Right. You want to do no harm ideally.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:02:32] Right, right. So that's why I usually move slower than maybe other people would. I mean, maybe earlier on I was a little more reckless because I didn't understand the implications of the questions that I was asking until. Until I started getting feedback from those people. Like, there was one guy who said, after that interview, I went to the bathroom and cried for an hour. My friends had to come by and pick me off the floor. So it could be tempting. Like, so then that exchange we had, you mentioned the word faith. You brought up the word faith really quickly. And. Yeah, I was just thinking that that's a situation where you might want to ask yourself, okay, we've been talking for 20 minutes. Now we're down to faith. Where do I want to go with this? And if I'm in doubt, I may say I've got a little bit more time. And I would love to keep asking you questions. However, I don't want to overwhelm you. If you think that this is a good time to end the talk so that you can think about what we talked about and maybe come back up to me later. Are you cool with that? I'll usually extend the invitation. And if they say, no, I'm good. Let's keep going, then I might say, okay, well, what exactly do you mean by faith? Can we define what you mean by that word? And how big of a factor is faith in this belief for you? If faith wasn't at your disposal, would it impact your confidence? Do you need faith? These are all the questions that are going through my mind, but don't ask them all shotgun like that. You want to just go very slow and methodically and don't overwhelm somebody.

John Dehlin [01:03:55] Okay. I am dying to know if we are going to be able to get Sean to that point of, like, open, vulnerable reflection where he says, yeah, I don't know why I believe her, or, yeah, I acknowledge that my beliefs are not unnecessarily a solid foundation. I'm curious to see whether we'll get Sean to that point of.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:04:15] We can only go where he's willing to take us.

John Dehlin [01:04:18] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:04:18] And there are things that I can do to facilitate it. There are things that I can do to make him comfortable. We're surrounded by seven cameras or something like that, Right. Four so. And it's taken me a day to just be comfortable.

John Dehlin [01:04:29] I snorted. It's the coffee. I'm blaming it on the coffee. There you go.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:04:33] So, I mean, this is a somewhat artificial environment, and he likely has followers and an image to uphold. So there's certain challenges to this kind of setup. As opposed to if he and I were on a plane ride and just chatting. It's a completely different scenario.

John Dehlin [01:04:50] It reminds me of the John Adams book where they Talked about posterity letters. It's one thing if you're writing a letter to a loved one. It's another thing if you're writing a letter to a loved one that you know it's going to appear in a history book someday. Right. You, you, you write to them differently than if you know there's going to be an audience. And so. But it's fun.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:05:07] And that goes for me too. But.

John Dehlin [01:05:08] Yeah, well, we all do it.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:05:09] Yeah. I mean, I have an image to uphold too. Like this is an interview that I would like to go well because I think it could both, you know, it could possibly reflect negatively on SE if it didn't go well. But I just try to like set those pressures aside and just try to connect with the person and figure out what their reasoning is and go where they take me.

John Dehlin [01:05:25] So what other steps do we want to cover before Sean comes and what other we're near to that? I'm pretty amazed you can remember all the steps just off the top of your head. But I guess you've been doing this all the time.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:05:36] I've been living this for eight years and developing it.

John Dehlin [01:05:39] All right, so where are we in the steps? What have we not covered?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:05:41] I guess we're near the end here where there's likely a moment of reflection about their methodology. We've reached the moment where they're reflecting on how they determine that this is a good reason. And I'll usually offer to end the conversation. That usually involves me thanking them for their time, giving them a way to contact me, which is really important because people do want to talk with you later or introduce you to their pastor or who knows what, or say, please don't use that video. I get that sometimes. And I'll give them. Lately I've been giving a puzzle piece thing, like a little gift that if you assemble it, it makes this ring. So I want to invite them to come back for more talks. We shake hands. Oh, and then I usually ask them if they have any questions for me. I forgot about that. While SE I think works best when it's a one way directed interview where I get like 15 or 20 minutes directly that's artificial. It would be very tough to do that with a family member who's been conversing with you normally your entire life to suddenly shift to an interview mode. But whether it's a regular conversation where we're using SE or we're doing an on the street thing, I'll usually invite the person if they haven't already asked where I stand. Like, would you like to know where I stand on your claim? And that's.

John Dehlin [01:07:00] Yeah, you do ask that?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:00] I do.

John Dehlin [01:07:02] And sometimes someone asks you, like, what's your confidence in God or the Bible? And you were like, I'll give it 1%.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:08] I put it down to 1. What? Your eyes bug out. So, yeah, that's. I try to, I try to offer to explain that to people if they want. A lot of times people are surprised by. This is the cool thing. I'm always happy when somebody says, you know, I'm glad that you're asking me to ask you questions now because I have no idea where you stand on this claim. I don't know if you're a believer.

John Dehlin [01:07:34] That's a compliment.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:34] I don't know if you're an atheist.

John Dehlin [01:07:36] That's a compliment. Right.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:37] I see that as a compliment compliment because I think that is, that demonstrates to me that I was as unbiased as possible in my questioning, hopefully. Because I do want to make it about them. And if there's any indication that I was guiding somebody to a conclusion that I want to bring them to or something, that I would see that as a failure, I really don't want to do that. I don't want to bring you to my view. I want you to be able to see how you came to your view and if you're fine with your process, that's all I want to do. And then leave you alone to see if you're okay with that. And a lot of people aren't. And that can start the deconversion process for a lot of people.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] Yeah, we got something.

Guest 7 [01:08:19] Karen, just as a follow up to that, I was looking at your frequently asked questions on the SE website and apparently, yes, one of them is I disagree with what my interlock order has claimed. Should I tell them? And it kind of has like a mixed answer there. So kind of sounds, it's up to like personal preference. But it sounds like you kind of try to keep your opinion about what their claim is completely on the back burner until they ask, like, what's your opinion on that?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:08:43] Yeah, that's. So it's, it's a personal call whether or not you want to reveal that you disagree with them or not. So I found that it's probably the most ethical thing is the second that they express an interest in your view, you should probably reveal it rather than to demure and say, well, I'll get to it at the end of the talk. Or I'd rather not say, like, why would you want to do that. You're expecting them to be open, you might as well be open too. So my advice would be to share your position, but include with it the caveat that you're open to changing your mind on it. If you are, hopefully you are. I don't think that there are any gods because I think that the evidence that I've been presented so far is poor. However, I'm open to looking at any evidence that somebody can give to me for that.

John Dehlin [01:09:28] And you're modeling what we described last night as epistemic humility. Right. Which I think you even Anthony Boghossian would. Anthony. Anthony Magnabosco, you would want to model epistemic humility as you're engaging in this conversation?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:09:42] Sure, yeah. The entire time that I'm having this exchange, I'm trying to model the behavior that I'd like them to give back to me. So if I'm being thoughtful in my questions, maybe they'll be thoughtful in their questions back to me. If I'm giving them time to think about something. Like if I ask them to define a word, I would hope that if I say a word that they don't understand, that they would ask me to define it and give me plenty of time to do so too. So, yeah, I'm trying to set a good example of a conversation partner so that if the tables do get turned, we can just use the same technique. I don't want people to debate with me. Like your guest coming today. The last thing I want to do is debate with him. He can ask me any question he wants and I'm hopeful that he gives me plenty of time to answer as, as clearly and concisely as I possibly can.

John Dehlin [01:10:28] Yeah, sometimes I. What, what do you do if one of your participants says, I feel like you're interrogating me. I feel like you are challenging me and trying to take my faith away from me because you're asking me all these questions that are making me uncomfortable. And you, you. It feels like you're trying to take my faith away from me. Do. Do they ever say something like that, like, stop interrogating me. I don't like this.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:54] I don't think that maybe is that rare. It's happened a little bit. But I've heard of situations where that's happened with people. There's a three part series of videos on my channel with a man who discovered street epistemology and realized that his wife is a young earth creationist. They have two kids and she's teaching them that the earth is young. And so forth. And he immediately went into SE mode and it kind of blew up in his face. So there are ways to go about doing this where you can avoid that resistance in the first place. Like I said, I think I suggested offering to do an interview. Let's shift. I want to move into a mode of conversation where I'm just directly interviewing you. Then we can end it and go back to our regular thing. You can do that. But if you ever get pushback from somebody who thinks that you're doing something that's problematic or manipulative, don't become defensive. Don't blow off what they have to say. Don't. I think maybe Augustus, no. Yeah, go ahead and so take it seriously. Take their concern seriously. And I would ask them, I'm sorry that you got that impression that, well, that isn't my goal. If that isn't your goal, or you could say, well, one of my goals here is to help you discover that maybe you don't have a good reason for thinking that this is true. And your response here, what I'm observing with you now, by calling attention to it the way that you have it, makes me wonder if you're starting to wonder about your reasons or your reasoning process. I would get meta about it. I wouldn't just blow it off or ignore it, but I'd say, like, I find it interesting that you're responding in this way. Another thing that you can do is say, well, what question specifically did I ask that led you to that conclusion? And you may say, well, okay, when I was framing that question, what I meant to do was this. And I'm sorry that you got that impression. So I would just deal with it. Don't blow it off.

John Dehlin [01:12:47] I love it. Well, Sean McCraney just arrived in our studio, so we've been a little bit conceptual. We've hopefully given you a decent our listeners and viewers overview of this episode. So we're going to bring this part two to a close and we're going to come right back where hopefully Sean McCraney sits down with Anthony Magnabosco and they're going to do street epistemology live hot on the spot. And then I hope we can. I want to try and process this with Sean after you do it and see what that was like for Sean to experience. Should I leave the room?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:13:21] So he's more honest and open. I don't. I wonder if he's.

John Dehlin [01:13:23] No, no, no, no, no. He'll be easy.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:13:25] I don't want him to hold back.

John Dehlin [01:13:26] You know, Sean's super honest. And he's a great guy. So I think it's gonna be fine. So. So thank you, Anthony, for this part two. Listeners, viewers, hope you've liked it. Please come back for part three because we think it's going to be really fun. All right. Thanks, Ant.

Live SE Conversation with a Former Mormon Turned Christian

Part 4 of 5 · Ep. 1516

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to part three of my episode with Anthony Magnabosco of street epistemology fame here on Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. Today is like an epic dream of all dreams. We have in studio with us again, Kara Burrell. Hey, Kara.

Guest 8 [00:00:17] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] So good to have you.

Guest 8 [00:00:19] It's a dream.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] And we have Anthony Magnabosco of street epistemology fame for part three. Hello, Anthony. Thanks for joining us.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:00:29] Yeah, glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:30] We are so excited now to have in our studio as part three of this series on street epistemology, a face that will not be foreign to many of my listeners and especially to Mormon Stories super fans, because once upon a time, I interviewed the one, the only Sean McCraney.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:00:50] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] On Mormon Stories podcast. Sean, how are you?

Sean McCraney [00:00:54] Hey. I'm doing wonderful, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:56] Yeah, this is.

Sean McCraney [00:00:57] This is great.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] And I called Sean just this morning and said, sean, will you come on Mormon Stories podcast? Not really knowing anything about Anthony or what street epistemology is. And I promise, Sean, no gotchas, you know, no hijacking. We are literally just here to have a thoughtful conversation. And so that's what we're gonna do. We are going to have Anthony Magnabosco employ street epistemology with the Sean McCraney. Sean, do you want to just tell our listeners really quick who you are and what you do?

Sean McCraney [00:01:29] I was LDS for 40 years, active, faithful, married in the temple, and I came to understand a different way to see the faith. I was an evangelical and trained under evangelicalism through Calvary Chapel for a few, for about eight or 10 years. And then I saw the defects in that and I tried changed things relative to the way I see the faith. And so now I am kind of a free floating, heretical person that all the evangelicals hate, a lot of the Mormons hate, but I love them all.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] And we love you, Sean.

Sean McCraney [00:02:05] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [00:02:06] And yeah.

Sean McCraney [00:02:07] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] And if people want to just really quickly as a shout out if people want to follow you or you've got a YouTube channel, right?

Sean McCraney [00:02:14] Yeah, it's heart of the matter. Hotm Sean McCraney. Any of those will take you to our channel.

John Dehlin [00:02:21] Beautiful.

Sean McCraney [00:02:21] We've been doing those for about 16 years. Just like you, John. Yeah, you're ahead of me by a few months.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] Well, you're an OG in so many ways, Sean McCready. So we're going to have you back to tell your. Your story, to give us an update, Sean. But today we are just going to let Anthony Magnabosco loose with letting also Sean McCready loose. And they're just going to have a conversation. So, Anthony Magnabosco, I'm turning this over to you and you pretend if you can. Anthony and Sean, pretend that not only me and Kara aren't in the room. Pretend that there's no audience. Because part of. I think what's important about this is, is that it's really just a heart to heart conversation between two people that honestly care about each other even though they've maybe never met before. So if, if you guys can try to do that, that would be our hope for today's conversation. Is that true, Anthony?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:03:15] I think I could do that. That's usually what I do going, you know, leading up to this point is I'll set up a whole bunch of cameras, flag down somebody that I never met before, and invite them to have a conversation where I use this approach called street epistemology. So I, I think I'm ready to do it. Absolutely, if you are.

Sean McCraney [00:03:34] I am ready. I'm excited. This is new and I can't wait.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:03:37] You haven't heard of, of that. This technique called street epistemology?

Sean McCraney [00:03:40] I have not.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:03:41] That's. Yeah, it's kind of, It's. It's been going on since 2013. It's grabbed a lot of people's attention because it's a way of talking with somebody about their views that is hopefully respectful and productive, where I try to take myself out of it as much as possible and make it about you to understand how you came to your conclusions, that what you think is true is true, to hopefully leave you with a couple of thoughts, maybe like a pebble in your shoe of sorts, to like, that guy asked some pretty good questions. That's usually what I'm attempting to do when I'm using this approach.

Sean McCraney [00:04:15] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:04:16] Generally, though, in addition to it being a stranger and you are, I never met you before this day. It's usually up to the person to surface the claim as well. Like, I can explore whatever claim you want, but a key part of this approach of using SE is to have a connection with the person, a little bit of rapport. I know we met in the hallway briefly when I went to go wash my hands and that type of thing. But I would like to know a little bit more about you, if possible, and then answer any questions that you have about this approach and what I'm attempting to do before we even get into it, because I think that will really help, kind of help us gel a little bit, which seems to be important later on.

Sean McCraney [00:04:56] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:04:57] All right. This is weird because I want it to be authentic and real and. But very little about this is authentic and real.

Sean McCraney [00:05:05] Well, we are.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:05:06] We are. Yeah, we are. So we got that.

Sean McCraney [00:05:09] All right.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:05:09] We got that. Do you have any questions for me? Do you want to know where I stand on any claim that maybe you want to talk about before we even get into it or.

Sean McCraney [00:05:16] No, I want you to take the lead and I will follow. I'll answer any question that you have relative to my. My faith and where I stand and what I think and what I believe.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:05:27] Okay.

Sean McCraney [00:05:27] Openly, Honestly, the.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:05:29] The little bit. I appreciate that. The. The little bit that I know about you is that you used to be in the Mormon Church, Church of lds and then you left the church, but you still believe that there's a God, you're still a Christian. Is that fair to say or definitely fair to say. Okay.

Sean McCraney [00:05:46] Yeah. When I left Mormonism, I was still in it. I became a nihilist of sort. And I was just talking to Kara about Marx, Marxism, and I was a Marxist, and I was definitely into some different views of dialectical materialism and what is real and what is true. And so I discounted all faith while a Latter Day Saint, But I had a roadside experience that changed my heart, so to speak. And it helped me to personally believe that there is a God who's interested in his creations. Now, that's my experience. I don't say you have to have it or that my experience was even legitimate. I just say that's what I've had. And then I've pursued that stridently, ardently over the course of the past 20 years and have discovered it to grow into something that's beneficial to me in my life. So that's kind of where I am and where I've been.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:06:45] Yeah, that's awesome. So I'm glad that you brought that stuff up because when I'm using this questioning approach of street epistemology, I'm interested in what convinced you that this stuff is true. And I'd ask you to please not try to give reasons that you think I'll find convincing or listeners would find convincing, because I want to understand how you concluded that this stuff is real and true. You mentioned a roadside experience. Roadside. What did you call it? A roadside.

Sean McCraney [00:07:13] It's a roadside experience. I was searching for years as a tortured Latter Day Saint. I didn't fit the prototypical model. Externally, I did. I looked like. I look like a missionary. And I obeyed the rules and I did everything I could, but inwardly, just the way I explain it is. I was a sinner. I love sin and I loved women and I love drugs and I love getting high and I love fighting and I loved all these things of my flesh. And Mormonism didn't have the capacity to change me as a human being, even though I tried. I went on the mission, married, did everything. Mormonism said, you do this and hey, man, you're going to be okay. But inwardly I knew I was a fake. I was a phony ass human being as a Mormon. Now, I'm not saying all Mormons are, but I was. And that construct did not work with me as a human being. So I began to search and search and search. And that's when I had this metaphysical epiphany at a roadside in Southern California that altered my course.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:08:15] Interesting. Okay, I want to maybe go a little broad here real quick. And this might sound like a very weird question. Sometimes the questions I ask are kind of weird. But I'm wondering if you care if your beliefs are true or not. Is it important for you to have beliefs that are true?

Sean McCraney [00:08:37] It's important for me to try to discover the truth as far as possible. But I don't think I have a handle on the truth, what is eternal. I don't think I have a grip on that, no. But it's important to get as close as I can.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:08:52] Yeah, I want to make it about me, just for a second, just to say, like, I agree with that. I think that I don't think we could ever really know the truth for sure, but it is a pursuit of mine. I want to get as close to the truth as possible. But sometimes I meet people who say it doesn't even really matter to me if this belief that I'm holding at the moment is factually true or not.

Sean McCraney [00:09:14] Me.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:09:14] Okay, good.

Sean McCraney [00:09:15] Not me at all.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:09:16] Good, good, good. Okay. Because if you did, that could take the conversation in a different direction. The other thing I wanted to ask you is, and this also might be a tough thing to think about, but I'm wondering how difficult life could be for you if you started to wonder if your belief was true or not.

Sean McCraney [00:09:37] Well, I have wondered and sometimes I wonder still. You know, you have to think that you've got some things wrong. What happens, Anthony, for me is the crutch of my beliefs sustains me in my walk in this life without the crutch of my beliefs. I become that guy that I was as a Mormon.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:10:02] Okay, see, that's an important revelation here to me because when I engage with somebody to explore the quality of Their reasoning for thinking things that are true. It could begin the process of helping a person. This is how I like to frame it best. Realign their beliefs to the reality of the situation as best they possibly can, which could, in basic lingo, it could actually cause you to doubt your belief.

Sean McCraney [00:10:31] Sure.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:10:32] And if the outcome of that would be you becoming less of a good person, or maybe if it would make life more difficult for you, then I don't know if I want to proceed. But here's the other thing that's in the back of my mind, niggling. Sometimes I think that people will say that stuff because they've been taught it, or they just think that that's the case. Have you seriously entertained that that is exactly what would happen, that you would find yourself struggling again if you did begin to doubt? Does that converse? Does that question make sense?

Sean McCraney [00:11:06] Oh, yeah. I think the question makes sense and the reality is true. Because as I have wandered over the course of the past however many 20 years and I've soldiered into realms of doubt where I've sort of pushed some things aside, what the Christians call the former man quickly rises up in me and I disconnect in my mind from the things I was holding true and. And I began to act on myself without those truths. And it's an ugly scene.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:39] Okay.

Sean McCraney [00:11:40] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:40] What I think I'm hearing is that your behavior could change significantly if you didn't think that this. These claims were true.

Sean McCraney [00:11:49] Unquestionably.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:51] Yeah.

Sean McCraney [00:11:51] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:52] Okay.

Sean McCraney [00:11:52] Now maybe that's psychosis. Maybe, you know, I. I have the mental issue that I need these things in order to keep me. And maybe it's a reality or not. Maybe I could be a good guy without it.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:05] This is what I'm wondering.

Sean McCraney [00:12:06] Yeah. But come live with me. Ask my wife, Ask my daughters, Ask my family.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:12] Right. Well, and I could, but I have you in front of me.

John Dehlin [00:12:15] Right.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:15] Like, this is even better because you're the one that has these views.

Sean McCraney [00:12:18] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:18] And so there's always a part of my mind when I'm using this approach is that I don't want to cause harm to people.

Sean McCraney [00:12:25] I don't think you can harm me, brother.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:12:26] Okay. Okay. However, and I know this might be difficult to conceive of if we did explore your reasoning for thinking that your conclusions were true about God, I think that it's a likely possibility that you could begin to doubt and maybe find yourself struggling with it. And I don't mean to. I'm not saying that to sound cocky, but I'm just trying to Lay it all out there, because I feel terrible if we did keep talking and you did find yourself struggling and having difficulties as a result of it. But I have more questions.

Sean McCraney [00:12:55] I invite you to bring struggle to my life because your previous this question was, do I care about truth?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:02] Yes.

Sean McCraney [00:13:03] So if what you have to bring to me is true, I don't care if I go back. I care about the truth. That's paramount in my life.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:11] Interesting.

Sean McCraney [00:13:12] So if you can unmoor or undermine what I have established as my superstructure for living, please do it. If it's true, I'll consider it. Even if it causes some defect from my. From my moral life.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:13:24] Okay. Maybe one last question before we get into your reasoning. I'm wondering. Surely you must. Well, you know, these folks here, they don't believe in any gods. How do you think people who don't think God is real manage to cope with these difficulties of life? And what does their superstructure look like without God? How do you think that they do it?

Sean McCraney [00:13:45] Oh, I think they do it with reason. I think they're, you know, from my perspective, are made in God's image. So they have great capacity to function and live. I mean, without God, we still have, you know, a pretty damn good life. Food and fun and relationships and hope and care for each other and service. All the things that religion brings everyone has at their axis. So I don't see a need in this life for anybody to have to have God in order to get by.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:14:17] Oh, interesting. Okay, well, now I'm wondering if they can do it. And I'm in that camp too. Like, I don't believe in any gods. I find tremendous meaning and value. Like, we just met and I think you're a really cool dude. And I think we would have a fun time and be nice to each other and all this other stuff. What are we lacking or how is our structures different than your structure? What would you be missing? What specifically do you think that you'd be missing if you did start to doubt and wonder about the belief?

Sean McCraney [00:14:50] What I would be missing is what I personally consider a metaphysical support that can't be proven. That's within me. That is, I believe that I have a presence of God. Not special anybody does who acquiesces to faith. And I've acquiesced to faith. That's an acquiescence. It's not a reality. It's not true or known. It's what I believe. I acquiesce to that faith and that sustains me in my walk metaphysically. Now, maybe John and Kara. And you. You don't need it. Maybe you can walk without that. I need it.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:15:27] You need.

Sean McCraney [00:15:28] I need that faith in place because I've tasted it. I. I know what I. My life is like without it. And if I don't have it, there's a loss. There's something within me that is sorrowful. Perhaps that. And maybe you might say, well, you're coming to reality with the hardness of life, Sean. That's fine. I can accept that that could be true. Because I walk by faith, however I need it. And so I always will say, that's me. I take it. Right?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:16:00] Yeah.

Sean McCraney [00:16:00] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:16:00] I want the crutch you need. Yeah. You need faith and you're. You're calling it a crutch. You recognize that?

Sean McCraney [00:16:06] Certainly.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:16:07] Okay.

Sean McCraney [00:16:08] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:16:08] Oh, that's fascinating to me.

Guest 8 [00:16:10] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:16:11] And you. You think it's true?

Sean McCraney [00:16:17] Okay. Epistemologically, the beliefs I have, I don't think are true. I place my faith on them because I don't think I have a handle on the truth. So I could be wrong.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:16:29] Okay.

Sean McCraney [00:16:30] So epistemologically, I don't say my beliefs in this and this and this are true. However, what I do believe is true with a capital T is like the guy in scripture, I have to quote it, where Jesus heals a blind man. And the Pharisees say, you know what happened? He said, I don't know. They said, well, do you think he's the son of God? He said, look it, I was blind and now I see. That's what he said. And that's what I say. I was a fucker, and now I'm not as much of a fucker. So if that's the reality, for me, that's truth with a capital T. I don't impose it on you. I love you. We party, we do what we want. But for me, that crutch works as a truth with a capital T. And you would see and experience that in our relationship together.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:17:16] I see. Okay. This is awesome. So I think what I'm hearing here is that because the. Did you say faith? Belief. I'm kind of curious how you're describing the word faith, but because you have these views and they're contributing to. They're contributing positively to your life, that's good enough for you to think that it's true.

Sean McCraney [00:17:41] It's good enough for me to personally accept it as viably true in my life.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:17:46] Because you benefit from it.

Sean McCraney [00:17:47] Right. And I have tested it. It's not like it's some new. I'm not new. To it.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:17:52] Right.

Sean McCraney [00:17:52] I've tested the hell out of it.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:17:53] And the test would be like back when you didn't think that it was true. I guess you didn't have a nice life back then.

Sean McCraney [00:18:01] You were struggling, and no one did around me either. Even worse.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:04] Yeah.

Sean McCraney [00:18:04] Yeah, I didn't. And neither did they.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:06] Sure. Sure. Okay. So there's something unique about this belief that you think that you need to have it, and because it serves its purpose, that's good enough for you to think that it's true for you.

Sean McCraney [00:18:18] For me?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:19] Yeah. Yeah.

Sean McCraney [00:18:19] Yeah. And that's where I can say, for me, this is true. Can you prove it? Oh, hell no. I walk by faith. Well, how do you prove it? Well, all I can say is I was once blind. Now I see. I was once a jerk, now I'm nicer, you know? So that's how I prove it. You know I don't have anything else, right? Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:38] If there was a better way to prove it or to show that it was actually true, would you want to know?

Sean McCraney [00:18:43] Sure.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:44] Okay.

Sean McCraney [00:18:44] Yeah. Like, psychologically and, you know, do I. Is it medicine I need, and is it this and that? Would that science bring me out into further light and knowledge? And I would be able to say, well, God isn't necessary. I've realized that the genetics of my makeup have. Have. All it needs is a little scientific tweaking, and I take the medicine, and suddenly I say, wow, I don't need God at all. Sure, I'll go down any road you can offer me, but I have to preface it with none of the things I've tried in the past. From religion to study to medicine to alcohol to drugs to aberrant sex. Nothing has given me the vision that the blind man received. And that's what has made me so determined to do what I do.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:19:30] Interesting. Okay, I do have one more question. Then maybe you can ask me any questions you want in return, or you guys can jump in. I don't know if you guys are enjoying this or not. I actually did forget that you guys were here, because this is just.

John Dehlin [00:19:41] Is Kara enjoying this?

Sean McCraney [00:19:43] Fascinating.

John Dehlin [00:19:44] Me? Am I enjoying this?

Guest 8 [00:19:45] Is this what I do for a living, is watch my most. This is a fascinating conversation. Trust me, this is excited.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] This is like Ali Frazier, but not at a fight. It's like.

Sean McCraney [00:19:54] No, no. Yeah. Thanks. Well, thanks for setting up the bout.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:19:58] Yeah. I don't know why we're framing it as a battle.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] No, no, no, it's not a battle, but it's just that epic. For me, this is the John Dehlin equivalent of Ali Frazier.

Sean McCraney [00:20:07] All right.

John Dehlin [00:20:07] But not as a fight, as a conversation. You're Ali, bro. Are you kidding me? You're freaking Ali.

Sean McCraney [00:20:16] Sorry, that means she's looking at you.

John Dehlin [00:20:18] Anthony has like no idea who we're talking about. What are we doing?

Guest 8 [00:20:21] Boxing?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:20:23] So, okay, I am wondering here that. Okay, let me kind of summarize where I think we're at that you're not sure, you're not entirely sure that it's true, but it's good enough to think that it is because you're deriving benefit from it. Is that fair? Because I have a follow up question based on that and I could repeat that if you want me to.

Sean McCraney [00:20:46] It's fair with the exception of I do walk by faith. And so I have given faith two principles and teachings and ideas that I can't prove are true, but I do believe they're the best thing I'm looking at that is out there. So I hold them as true. But I am willing to say there's wiggle room in there. For instance, you know, who is God? Well, I don't know. You know, I believe in it. Him, her. But according to what I have put my faith on, I'll say, well, yeah, I think that's true. And I'll probably die and just wake up with a great surprise. But nevertheless, I do think my beliefs at this point are true in the sense of they can be supported by where I place my faith. And so I have to add that little qualification, if that makes sense.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:21:37] Yeah, yeah, it does. You said, I think that you have a podcast or a show. Here's what I'm wondering though, is that are there listeners who are consuming your content and thinking that this is true when we've uncovered that the belief serves to meet your own personal needs, could you be propagating a false belief simply because it meets your own personal needs?

Sean McCraney [00:22:05] No, because anybody who listens to me now knows that I say, look, the faith is subjective. It's not objectively derived and delivered. It's subjectively interpreted. You believe what the hell you want to believe. I can't tell you what to believe. I believe this. I'll teach it. But know that it is entirely subjective and it's up to you to determine if you like what I say or don't. If you don't, I love you. Carry on. You may be right. And so that's the approach that we take with the podcast or the, the stream or whatever it might be.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:22:37] Okay, cool, cool. Well, thank you very much for Your time. I mean, this is great. I'm tempted. So as a person who's using street epistemology, just to pull back the covers a little bit, like, I'm really tempted to keep pursuing this, but I don't think it would be healthy for you if I did. Really, Honestly, I do. Yeah.

Sean McCraney [00:22:56] I would like you to introduce some unhealthy elements to my purpose. How else can I learn? I mean, I Rene descarted everything. I doubted it down to nothing. Now my. My friend here says he can bring things something new that would destroy me. No, I want to hear.

John Dehlin [00:23:13] I don't think he's wanting to destroy

Sean McCraney [00:23:15] me or to hurt me. I want you to give me your best stuff because then I can respond with what I think is our reasonable answers. Let's see where it gets us.

John Dehlin [00:23:24] But like, Sean, when I interviewed you with you a couple years ago.

Sean McCraney [00:23:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:29] I think you said to me something like, like, I would kill a dude on the side of the road if I didn't have a belief in Jesus. I'm not trying to misquote you.

Sean McCraney [00:23:37] Yeah, no, you're about right. And it's not rhetoric, John. I am a fucker. No, it's true. And so this is why I am so deeply committed to the thing that happened to me so many years ago and have consistently been committed to it. I know what I am, John. If you cut me off and I didn't know you and I wasn't, I wasn't. Didn't have the change in me, I would pull over to the side of the road and we would go at it. You know, I would take your wife if I could. I've done it to other men. I would do whatever my flesh wanted to frickin do.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] Yeah.

Sean McCraney [00:24:15] When he came in, brother, you became my friend and my neighbor. And if, and, and that. I just can't turn from that.

John Dehlin [00:24:23] And I think what Anthony's saying is he. We would never want to be responsible for triggering any sort of unhealthy event that might, that might.

Sean McCraney [00:24:32] You're not going to trigger anything. He that is in me, as we say as Christians, is greater than he that is in the world. And it's not saying you guys are of the world. Bring your stuff so. Because I don't think there's anything that you're going to bring that's going to unmoor the decades of searching and reading and studying from Greek to Roman philosophy, to the Hebrew to the Greek, all of it. I don't think you can unmoor it. It's because of the experience I've had and the fervency that comes out of me in this.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:25:00] Well, see, that's what we would explore is we. If I agreed to do it. Because it seems like you're receptive. But with se. We want to have two willing participants. And this might be one of the rare situations where there's one that's not.

Guest 8 [00:25:10] Wow.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:25:11] Yeah. But let me just say that if we were to continue, I wouldn't be. I would want to find out what was the biggest reason for thinking that this is true. And you've revealed it, I think. Yeah, you mentioned study and everything just now, but I think it was that roadside experience that you had. That's the biggest thing. So what I would be doing is asking you questions that would challenge your conclusions. I'm sure you experience something, but it's what you're attributing it to that I'm. That I would be exploring with you.

Sean McCraney [00:25:39] I would love to do that. I don't know if we have time on this show, but come on our show or if we have time now. We have time. Let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:25:44] For sure. We have time.

Sean McCraney [00:25:45] Come on. Overcome that.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:25:46] It's not a matter of time. It's a matter of my willingness.

Sean McCraney [00:25:49] And when you think about it.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:25:50] Yeah, let me think about it.

John Dehlin [00:25:51] So can I. Can I jump in and just ask a question, please? And you're the expert, Anthony, and I'm just learning about street epistemology. It almost seems like if you were to proceed with the conversation with Sean, it wouldn't be about his beliefs in God or Jesus. It would be in his belief that he can't be a good person without God or Jesus. That's slightly different than his belief in God or Jesus.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:14] There's two things that's part of it. This idea that you think that you need to have the belief in order to be good and not slip back to your old ways. That's part of it. And you've kept reiterating that that's the case. So that is a no go for me. But what I would. The second part that I'd be doing is exploring your conclusion when you had that experience. And I'm actually reluctant to even lay this out for you because it might actually start the process. But I am wondering. I would want to know, like, what happened and then why did you conclude what you did? And how can you be so sure that your conclusion is accurate? That's where I would go with my questioning, but I don't want to. This is what And I feel bad, too. Cause you got everything set up and this would be. But this really is a good moment to really showcase, like with se. With this approach. You really want to have both people engaged in it and willing to do it. And I've had enough of these conversations to be on the receiving end of my conversation partner reaching out to me, really struggling with it. So I actually think that we've done enough already just talking about this to the point. And maybe this is old news to you, but this was really helpful for me to understand how you're thinking about things and how you came to your conclusions and what you think your life would be like if you didn't think the belief was real anymore. And. And that's where I'm at with it.

John Dehlin [00:27:40] What I'm struck with. And Sean, we totally want to hear your thoughts. And part of. Part two of our conversation with you was going to be deconstructing how it felt for you, because you just did it. You just experienced street epistemology. That's. That's exactly. Oh, go ahead.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:54] Well, I was going to say there is one way that we could potentially salvage this where I can demonstrate.

John Dehlin [00:27:57] No, there's nothing to salvage. This has been great.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:59] Has it been good?

Guest 8 [00:28:00] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:28:01] I almost feel like I let you down because I didn't demonstrate the technique. But in a way, I was like, I was listening to what you're saying. I was charitably interpreting it. I was asking for Clari. Clarification and repeating it back to you so you can hear it and intently listening to what you're saying. I don't want to misrepresent it. So there were elements of se going on in there, but I forgot where I was going.

John Dehlin [00:28:20] Well, what's different.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:28:22] I know, I was going to say, is that if you want, we can take a completely different claim that is not so core to your identity. And we can still illustrate the technique if you want. Like, let's say that you have a particular political view, or you're sure red cars get more speeding tickets than any other car, or something along those lines. I could still use the tools on that, but for the. For the nature of the show, it may not land as good.

John Dehlin [00:28:45] What I was noticing, Sean, is that when you do people on the street, and he's got over a thousand hours of people that he's just met and had this conversation with, it's probably usually with people that don't even know what the word epistemology means. What's very, very different about this interview with Sean versus your average man on person on the street interview is that Sean is. Has spent decades now processing and contemplating his own faith. And we use this term epistemic humility before you showed up. You've probably heard that term before, maybe you haven't, but Sean, you're like, you're demonstrating to me kind of like a 9 out of 10 in terms of epistemic humility, which is probably not what you're. I don't know, I guess you, you interview all types.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:29:28] Actually, I, I wouldn't frame like, I. So I wouldn't frame your view you as being dogmatically closed in your position.

John Dehlin [00:29:38] Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:29:40] No, everything that you said has been like. I'm fairly open minded to it. But the twist is the impact that the loss of the belief would have and that's different. Most of the people that I meet in the street and I don't know for sure because there's only so much that you can learn from a person. And I actually learned a little bit about BU beforehand, so I kind of had that going into it. But most people aren't as. Most people aren't as tuned in to what the outcome would be if they didn't have the belief. And you're really dialed into it. Yeah, really dialed it. And I appreciate that because that made my decision easier because you have a really good lock on it. It would actually have been problematic if you were that dependent on it and you didn't disclose it.

Sean McCraney [00:30:25] Sure. Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:27] So I'm glad that you did.

Sean McCraney [00:30:28] Can I ask one question, please?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:30] All that you want can ask more than one.

Sean McCraney [00:30:31] Wouldn't it be loving or better from your perspective to bring me to the truth if you have it, Even if it's detrimental to me?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:43] Understand if I have the resources to follow through and I'm just blowing through Salt Lake City here. I live in San Antonio, Texas.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] So you got phone, you got.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:53] I don't have the time to convince you.

Sean McCraney [00:30:54] Take me as a patient.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:55] I know, right? Let me pencil you in here.

Sean McCraney [00:30:58] John can be a backup.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:59] This is actually something that I advise people who are using this approach to consider is how much time do you have to be there for the person after the conversation? And I can't commit that time to you. And I don't know what your situation is. And you very well may be fine if we did pursue this.

Sean McCraney [00:31:16] So se admittedly doesn't go deeper. So you have to be cautious in every. Because you're only on the street. You're just meeting someone and then you leave. Right.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:31:24] Most people who do se, it's on the. Well, it's not on the street. It's, it's, it's with a family member, friend and it organically comes up. Okay, yeah. This version where this is a, this is an artificial environment. Most people stumble across conversations and they, they start using SE with it.

Sean McCraney [00:31:43] I see.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:31:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:45] Well, Anthony, so I'm going to pursue, I'm going to like as a, as a mentor, I'm going to pursue se just a tiny bit. With Sean, you can either recuse yourself or like jump in as you're comfortable. But I do have a, I want to just do a tiny mini session.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:01] How's his se? Is your SE better? I'm curious, Kara.

Guest 8 [00:32:05] I haven't practiced in a while. Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:07] Okay, we'll see how John does.

Sean McCraney [00:32:08] Are you both practitioners?

John Dehlin [00:32:09] No, I'm not. I'm just learning.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:11] Let me just say also it's a technique that we want everybody to learn, including theists. It's not like this atheist. It started off as that, like this is a tool that you can use as atheists to really get these theists to start thinking about it and they may even start lowering their confidence in their conclusions. But we've realized the utility of it and we want everybody to learn it regardless. Like, I think that this would be a great technique for you to learn next time you engage with an atheist or someone from a different religion altogether, a Hindu or something, or on a political topic.

John Dehlin [00:32:40] Yeah. You said yesterday that 10 level confidence in atheism is kind of maybe for you just as problematic as a 10 level of confidence in, in, in a belief in God. Is that right?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:32:54] There are videos on my channel where I've engaged with atheists who are 100% sure that there's no God. And after a 10 minute talk, they realize that they can't be sure.

Sean McCraney [00:33:01] Right.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:33:02] And I think you're, you're not dogmatically certain on your view. You've, you've expressed that before.

John Dehlin [00:33:07] What, Sean, what is your number? If you had to give a number of a level of confidence to your belief in the existence of a God and of the afterlife and of the Bible being the word of God. If you had to give it a number, I'm curious what number you'd give it.

Sean McCraney [00:33:24] Intellectually. A four or five, A three or four or five. From my heart, a ten.

John Dehlin [00:33:35] Ten.

Sean McCraney [00:33:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:36] Okay. Yeah, okay.

Sean McCraney [00:33:37] From my heart.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] Yeah.

Sean McCraney [00:33:38] That's just my personal. Yeah. What I have come to see experience. It's a 10. But intellectually I don't know.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:33:47] It sounds like it's more. If you don't mind me interrupting.

John Dehlin [00:33:50] It's your show. It's your show, bro.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:33:53] It sounds like you're saying that the value that you get from the belief is more important than it being factually true.

Sean McCraney [00:33:59] Well, it's really the admittance that I can't determine if it's factually true, so I have to say it that way because I can't prove it. We do live by the F word, faith, and that is often forgotten. It's faith, damn it. And that's what we choose. It's a choice is not knowledge. Faith is not certainty. It's a faith. So I have to admit that.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:34:22] Yeah. Do you agree that, or would you agree. I don't want this to be a leading question. Do you think that other people can have faith in conclusions that are incorrect?

Sean McCraney [00:34:33] Sure. Including myself.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:34:35] Okay. Yeah. Okay. I'm glad that you realize that. Oh, yeah, that's cool. Yeah. A lot of people don't even think of that, like, oh, faith is a thing that could be used by other people to complete. To conclude that completely different gods are real. It could be a real shocker for some people. So, yeah, you're definitely further along in terms of the processing that you put into this, and it seems like you're content with where you're at with this belief and the function that it provides for you.

Sean McCraney [00:35:00] Yes. Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:02] So I'll be a jerk and take it just one step further than Anthony's willing to do it. Is that all right, Sean? Because I don't want Sean to leave disappointed.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:11] And I know Sean's like, wait, I

John Dehlin [00:35:12] want to do this. And Anthony's like, I can't. But I also don't want to be unethical, so. So I'll be very careful. Is that okay, Anthony?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:19] I'm gonna. I'm curious to see where you go

John Dehlin [00:35:20] with it, because I would do this on the podcast no matter what. Anyway, so. And we've done this before. Sean and I have been through a few rodeos. Fist bump me here, brother.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:27] And actually, you guys know each other, so if he had difficulty, I hope that you reach out to him.

John Dehlin [00:35:31] Oh, well, yeah, we live here. Yeah, man. But I'm. I'm sure I'll. I could use as much help from Sean as Sean could ever use for me. Okay, so, Sean, here's my question to you then. So you had this experience in Mormonism that failed you, and I think that's pretty much everyone who listens to Mormon stories. Then, then you also lived a life of, let's just say, debauchery that you yourself say was hurting yourself and everyone around you. And so those were the, those were two things you tried and you knew that those two things didn't work. Go ahead, jump in, jump in.

Sean McCraney [00:36:13] God was always part of that picture too. I was trying to understand him too. So God was always part of the picture.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] Okay, so you never, there was never a stage where you were just like, I don't believe in God at all. You haven't even tried.

Sean McCraney [00:36:26] That came later. There was wild more. But along the path of being Mormon and struggling with my faith, I mean, my flesh and everything, God was always in the mix. Like, where are you? What are you okay?

John Dehlin [00:36:38] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so are you saying you never identified internally as a full blown atheist? You probably have never.

Sean McCraney [00:36:45] I did, but I think it was probably just a reaction to being disappointed by Mormonism failing me.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] Okay, okay, so. So for now I'm just gonna say scenario one is being an orthodox believing Mormon. That didn't work for you.

Sean McCraney [00:37:00] Right.

John Dehlin [00:37:01] Scenario two is the debaucherous lifestyle that didn't work for you or those around you. So you conclude. So you had an experience, an emotional experience that led you to scenario three, which is being a believing. I don't want, I don't know if you want to say evangelical Christian. How would you self identify in terms of your Christianity now?

Sean McCraney [00:37:25] Follower, disciple of Jesus, something like that? Okay, I, I embraced evangelicalism for about 10 years, but it didn't serve me either. I didn't to want work. It didn't make sense. So that changed too. But yeah, just a, a disciple of Jesus from the heart.

John Dehlin [00:37:38] Okay, so those are three scenarios. And you, if I were to ask you your level of confidence that you would be a monster of a person without being in scenario three, what's your level of confidence that you would literally become a monster if you, if you didn't try? Let's just say a fourth way. Let's say there's a fourth way.

Sean McCraney [00:38:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:06] What's your level of confidence that you would become a monster by leaving a third way for, for a fourth way? Not, not the first second way, but a fourth way. What's your level of confidence that you have to have believe in Christianity as a, as a way to make yourself a decent person?

Sean McCraney [00:38:30] The difficulty in answering that question is because I've passed through what I've passed through to make me what I am right now. If I abandon that, I'm sure I would be more mature. I would be more rational. I would use more logic than my impetuous hormonal self of years gone by. But I know that or I believe that the hole within me would only grow into more darkness. And I think that I would be sad, at least at the loss of what I have. What I have now. I think I would.

John Dehlin [00:39:06] So what I hear you saying is you're certain that you would grieve.

Sean McCraney [00:39:10] I'm sure I would grieve.

John Dehlin [00:39:12] You're. You're certain that you would grieve the loss of Station 3, let's just call it of. Of believing Christianity.

Sean McCraney [00:39:20] Yeah. For the same way I can say I would grieve if my wife died. Yeah, I would. Because it's a partnership. It's a relationship I'm in with this unknown being. And I believe that I would grieve that as much as I would grieve my. My wife passing away.

John Dehlin [00:39:36] Sure.

Sean McCraney [00:39:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] Yeah. Grief is real. And any. Doesn't matter what you believe. I imagine you had to grieve station one. You had to grieve the loss of orthodox Mormonism.

Sean McCraney [00:39:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:39:46] Is that true?

Sean McCraney [00:39:47] Yes, I grieved it.

John Dehlin [00:39:48] Did you grieve the loss of the debaucherous lifestyle? A little bit. Did you?

Sean McCraney [00:39:53] I grieve over the harm I caused greatly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:56] But over leaving, did you. Do you miss. Do you miss any of the.

Sean McCraney [00:39:59] I like playing chicks and getting drunk. I mean, I have to be honest, I like that. And so if everyone's a willing participant, I don't grieve so much of that. In fact, I still get drunk sometimes, but. So I don't grieve that. But I know that's not my capacity with who's in me. I can be better through him. So that, that makes me grieve.

John Dehlin [00:40:19] Yeah. And I'm just going to say right now, just checking in with myself, first of all, I. I have a training as a. As a clinical and counseling psychologist, which trained me to never. What's that?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:40:30] It's clear that you have had some training in that area.

John Dehlin [00:40:33] Thank you. Great questions, I think. But. But that training is for me that you never impose your values or any sort of destination on your clients. And I just want you to know that, that as I'm engaging in these, it is with zero desire to have you arrive at any conclusion. I actually literally have a negative interest in taking any belief away from you that is important to you or super meaningful to you. And I mean that. So I'm. I'm a little bit uncomfortable doing a se right now. But. But I am as a podcast interviewer, I'm going to proceed just a tiny bit more and I'll explain my motives. So I. I look around this room right now and I told these guys this, maybe at a break, that sometimes I tend to separate the world. And this is probably going to sound bad because I don't really think anybody's a superhero, but because I care so much about humanity and I want to see as many people live the best lives as possible and want to see the least amount of suffering. And honestly, Anthony, to your kind of mission, I want to see the least amount of people living false lives or someone else's truth that was imposed upon them as possible. I want people living lives as grounded in reality as is healthy for them and making the most of their limited time on this earth and their resources with as much intrinsic self empowerment as possible versus the undue influence of some third source. Like that's what I want. I want everybody to be living with all the best information as they can. Living the truest, most authentic life, doing the most good, alleviating the most suffering and helping as many people as possible. That's what I want for everyone. If I could wave my magic wand, that that's what would happen. Anthony, you're grinning a little bit. Why are you grinning?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:42:33] Because I. That's exactly how I feel. Yeah, those are my goals. Is. Is to recognize that beliefs are important to people. Some people need to have things to think that are true in order to cope with the difficulties of life. And if that's what they need, that's what they need. Because ultimately that's the world that I want to live in where we're kind to each other and we value truth and we want to live authentic lives and we care for each other to the point where we'll give them a pass if we think that they're wrong about something, if that's what they need. That we have a goal in mind, but we have some caveats along the way to get there.

John Dehlin [00:43:11] And what makes me willing to pursue this just a tiny bit more is that Sean said, if I'm living in untruth, isn't it your obligation to kind of help me see that? He said, I invite you to help me scrutinize what I'm thinking and feeling.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:43:29] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:43:30] Because I think Sean loves truth and Sean doesn't. And this isn't me being condescending like I know the truth. Sean says, I don't want to be living. I imagine you, Sean, want to live your best life based on the most truth as possible, doing the most good and the least amount of harm.

Sean McCraney [00:43:44] Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:45] In harmony with you. That's you too, right? Yeah. Okay, so having said all that, that's a huge disclaimer for just a few more steps down, maybe the SE road, and you can tell me if I'm acting in the spirit of SC or not. It's not like it's a religion or anything, but. So, Sean. So in my mind, I'm thinking. Here's what I'm thinking, that I really respect people who dedicate their lives to the betterment of other people's lives in very explicit ways. And, Sean, one of the things I've always loved and respected about you is that you've dedicated your life in ways where you could have made a lot of money. You could have been a executive for a company or gotten rich or wealthy or whatever. You're smart, charismatic, passionate. You could have done all sorts of amazing things. You could have even. I've always said this. You could have grown a megachurch here in Utah. And I'm like, why in the hell hasn't Sean McCraney created a megachurch in Utah with thousands? Because of freaking South Mountain and K2 and pick your. You know, if they can do it, surely Sean McCraney can do it. But I've talked to you and I've talked to others who work with you. You explicitly don't want to do that because you see even that getting rich and powerful in the name of Jesus as deeply unethical. Is that right?

Sean McCraney [00:45:04] Yes, I do.

John Dehlin [00:45:05] So you, like. Like Anthony just showed restraint of not using se to the potential detriment of another human. You've shown a lot of restraint that I respect in not getting. Not becoming Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, basically, or Jerry Falwell, or who? I pick your favorite. Joel Osteen. Right, whatever. Or who's the dude that did the.

Sean McCraney [00:45:27] Yeah, Crazy Eyed.

John Dehlin [00:45:28] No, the guy from Seattle. I'm watching a podcast. I'm listening to a podcast right now about the rise and fall of Mars Hill with Mark Driscoll. Mark Driscoll. I think you easily could have been a Mark Driscoll.

Sean McCraney [00:45:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] But you chose not to.

Sean McCraney [00:45:43] Yeah, right, Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:45:44] Yeah. And I respect that. So in that spirit, here's all I want to say, is that because you're willing to be what I call a superhero, trying to dedicate your life at your own sacrifice to the betterment of others, I see that you spend a lot of time talking about Jesus in the Bible. Right. And if Jesus really lived and If Jesus was God's savior and if he was the son of God, and if the Bible's true, and most importantly, if. If those beliefs really are central to you being a good person, then, like, thumbs up. But what if there was a fourth way that was an orthodox Mormonism, but there wasn't debauchery where you could do just as much good with humanity or even more and still be as good of a person or better? Would you even want to know about that?

Sean McCraney [00:46:47] Sure. Yeah, absolutely. I'd like someone to present it to me. I want to know what it is, what's more powerful and sustaining than what I've experienced. Give it to me. I'll shoot the drug. I'll try it.

John Dehlin [00:47:00] Okay. And I'm not saying I know that, because I think part of street epistemology would be for you to go on a journey to try and figure that out.

Sean McCraney [00:47:07] Right?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:47:08] Yeah. Yeah. If I could interject. And this is.

John Dehlin [00:47:10] Take over.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:47:11] There are some similarities here with street epistemology and psychotherapy techniques, where the last thing that I would want to do is try to convince you. Like, listen, dude, this is great. I have this lovely family and life. And. Yeah, I realize that this is the one and only life that I have. I don't think that there are any gods. And it's wonderful. Come to my side. It's one of the worst things that you can do because we need to. I would want to make sure that you thought that you were capable of doing it and what you would need to see or have happen in order to get to that end. State change talk is really good. What would your life be like if you could still have all the benefits of where you're at now without the belief that you can't justify it? Like, I wonder what that would be like. I think that would be a healthy exercise to think about. How could I get there? What would I need to see or do in order to move to stage four? I like that framing, by the way. That's really cool. Like, seeing. Yeah. What would stage four look like? What would stage five look like? You're the only person that can come up with that. And we can throw ideas at you or we can be role models for you to possibly look at, but ultimately, you're the one that has to make that decision.

Sean McCraney [00:48:22] Yeah. Well, now or later, I'd like the opportunity to hear what those are, what you offer, what you would suggest to look at for me to examine. Because you cannot go wrong with examining anything as long as you're open to what is true. So I am open to anything you could bring to the table that would show me that you could give me a fourth option that would be superior to what I have now. And I smile because there's kind of a presupposition, you don't know me. But I mean I've been through a hell of a lot. I've turned from much of evangelical doctrine and dogma when I discovered it was so false, like eternal punishment and Trinity. And I've turned from it and lost more and more and more and more. So I, I will do anything to find the truth. If you've got something better, please bring it. I just don't. I'm not sure that, that you can bring something to me that I maybe haven't examined or tried, you know, and that's why I smile. It's not out of smugness. It's out of me maybe being a Mormon again and thinking that the church is true, you know, maybe you got something for me.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:49:35] It wouldn't be that, you know.

John Dehlin [00:49:40] Yeah, yeah. And so if, and this is stepping out of the SC role for a second when somebody says like, oh okay, you're asking great questions, tell me what to believe and follow now, what do you normally, what do you normally say?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:49:52] Tempting because like, well, I've met Mormon missionaries when I was out doing my street interviews and had wonderful talks, explored their reasoning process. It seemed that they couldn't justify it. At least I wasn't convinced by it. And I was wondering why they were convinced by it. But I wanted, I actually went back looking for them because I knew that they were coming to Texas around a town and I wanted to come over to my house for the holidays and hang out because part of me was thinking they're lonely, maybe they would probably like to have a nice home cooked meal. But I was also thinking it could probably be useful to see what a non believing family looks like. Like maybe they've never been exposed to that.

Sean McCraney [00:50:34] I see.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:50:35] Like to see like we're just as nice, yeah, we're not praying before dinner but we're also not arguing or kicking the dog or lounging around with all our stolen goods in the house or anything like that. We're just really nice, decent people who don't have any of the religious baggage and we're able to cope through life and that type of thing. Like I think that's probably the best way that non believers could help people who might be in your situation who just can't imagine what stage four would look like is to be around people who are out and open. So this is a call to action maybe for some of your listeners that if you have the ability to be out and open about your non belief, you could be an example for people who aren't there yet.

Sean McCraney [00:51:22] Let me just add Anthony, that what I've come to believe is that I have experienced many relationships with what Christians would call godless heathens. I believe that your life can be superior in terms of function and success and peace and harmony than mine. So I don't think I have anything that I bring to the table that says my life is better than yours. Not at all. And that's not part of my belief system. So I wouldn't. Don't think I would find something to be surprising if I went and had dinner with you at Christmas. I think that you are a nice man. You're sitting here tired. I think John is. I would have whatever you were about. You could be a gay couple, you could be an alcoholic. I believe in freedom and liberty. So there would be nothing that I would say oh well, they would be better. The only way I would think that what I possess might benefit is selfless love, which is sacrificial love, which doesn't come naturally to many people, believers especially and non believers alike. Selfless sacrificial love is what I've learned through my belief system which I wasn't able to garner from any substance, any philosophy or any religion. That's why I stick to it. Now I'm not saying you can't be selfless and full of sacrificial love. Anyone who's a parent knows what that's about. And I ready, I'm with that. But I just. That's the thing I would be looking for. And I'm surprised sometimes like there's people we know who are in the Hollywood business how loving and kind they are compared to so many Christians we know. And I'm stunned by the selfless love that they exhibit toward me that the Christian community lacks so much so. And I believe them to be as much Christian as someone who professes the faith. Even if they say they're atheist. That's that we teach that that they are as much they have the spirit of Christ in them because of their love. That's how he said you would he. That's how you would know who his disciples are by those who love. So it's only the love that I look for. It's not. Does it function well in your life? Are you more psychologically level or peaceful? Any of that? It's do. Can you love selflessly? And I, I am not able to love selflessly. I put myself ahead of everybody without that influence. That's. That's my message.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:53:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fascinating to me. Okay. As you're describing selfless love, the, the, the synonym that came to my mind. Yeah. And I don't know if this is the case was empathy.

John Dehlin [00:54:06] Sure.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:54:07] Are you. Is that the case? Did that event that happened, that moved you into the stage three currently where you're at, did that event help you develop empathy for other people?

Sean McCraney [00:54:20] My God, it's unfolded empathy in my life, I never could relate to anybody's troubles or pain. I was a brat from Huntington Beach, California, raised in hyper capitalism and a Mormon family. I was. I was. So that's why I look like this now, because I want to relate to people who I always look down on. I did not have any empathy before, and I've become empathetic toward the plight of everybody. Any problem, that's what he's done for me in my life. That's how I think he's done for me in my life.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:54:54] Right.

Sean McCraney [00:54:54] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:54:54] Right.

Sean McCraney [00:54:55] So every sexuality, every sin, I don't care what is pedophilia. Love him. It's. He brought it where before I would. Let's kill him. Right. Let's kill the fags. Right. No more. Gone.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:55:09] And that empathy, in your view, would be compromised or that. What was the term that used.

Sean McCraney [00:55:14] Could be compromised?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:55:15] Yeah, that. That term that could be compromised. Could be compromised. That would be. Huh. Okay. Your ability to empathize for others could be compromised if you. You didn't attribute that event to this higher power.

Sean McCraney [00:55:30] Right. I think that that's my belief system.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:55:32] Yeah.

Sean McCraney [00:55:33] But if you can bring something to the table that would make me more empathetic than I've become, I'll inject it. Wow.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:55:42] Yeah, that's. That's so interesting because I'm. Now I'm thinking there are people who don't have the ability to empathize with others.

Sean McCraney [00:55:49] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:55:49] They're called.

Sean McCraney [00:55:50] Mostly called Christians.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:55:51] Well, no, I think there's an actual. Is it narcissism or.

John Dehlin [00:55:54] Yeah. Antisocial personality disorder.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:55:58] There are people that can't put themselves in another person's shoes. But it's my understanding that that's a brain. That's an attribute of your brain. And it's not something that you can suddenly start doing. I don't think. Can people who don't have empathy learn to have empathy.

Sean McCraney [00:56:14] And here's where I would step in and say, I'm sorry, but through Jesus. Yeah, the guy who did the narcissistic study in Canada. I wrote him. I said, you've given this test on how to be a narcissist. I scored 9 out of 10 in my former self. I said, jesus changed my life from being a full blown narcissist to being someone who now actually has empathy. And I can tell you that's true. He never wrote me back.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:56:41] Okay, so part of these religious beliefs often come with a penalty if you don't believe it. And you didn't even mention this at all. I'm wondering if one of your motivations for staying with it is the concern of being tortured for eternity or anything like that.

Sean McCraney [00:56:58] No, I don't believe in that. I believe God is love. He loves all people whether they believe or not. He is complete love and he loves them without or with belief. So it has no fear in me.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:57:08] So there's no fear. Motivation that's also driving this desire to become more empathetic or something.

Sean McCraney [00:57:13] It's gratitude. It's gratitude.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:57:15] It's gratitude.

Sean McCraney [00:57:16] Yeah. There's a gratitude in me for the change I had at that roadside experience that said, you are such a selfish jerk. Start looking around, buddy. Wake up. And that's so. I started to wake up.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:57:30] Okay. This is so, so fascinating. Wow.

Hosts and Guest Reflect on the Live SE Demonstration

John Dehlin [00:57:35] All right, so first of all, I love this. This really is like the super bowl of Mormon stories for me. So thank you both so far. Let me do this. Let's. I think it's time to say that was a good experience with street epistemology. Sean, don't feel like in any way this is framed as anything other than a, a grand slam success because we just did street epistemology. And what I love about it is we not only modeled the inquiry, the respectful inquiry and the respectful response, we modeled the, the ethics and we modeled the restraint. Because I am going to just venture that street epistemology will always have some value as you listeners use it and implement it. But it's always going to, it's almost always going to have a limited value. And knowing when to stop is probably one of the most important, I would say one of the most important parts of street epistemology, and that's what you modeled so beautifully today for me, Anthony, is how to care about the well being of the person you're talking with and to show restraint and say, wait, let me, let me probe to find out how this is for you, whether this is useful, how today is going, when there's been enough Kind of titrating is the word that comes to mind. And then let me go ahead and say, I think today we've done that. I want listeners and viewers to think about that. It's more important that you do this ethically and that you know when to stop than probably any other component of street epistemology. And, Anthony, I think you modeled that really well today, and that's. I'm just so grateful for that.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:59:20] Cool. Yeah, thanks. I think that that's right. And also, like, the recognition that we're maybe entering into a Terry territory that I'm not all that familiar with, because I'm not really sure.

John Dehlin [00:59:30] You don't do this a lot.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:59:31] Well, I'm not really sure what role empathy. I don't think I've ever met a conversation partner who said that the belief helped give them or helped them become more empathetic towards other people. I've never heard it phrased that way. And I'm starting to wonder, like, this is hitting my level of understanding of human psychology. I don't know these terms very well. So knowing when to end it is not only good for the person that you're speaking with, but for you also. So that I could think about this conversation, too. And, like, if I sat down with Sean again, where would I go? Would he be. What if he was ready to move? I know that you're ready to go there, but I wasn't ready. What if I'm now suddenly ready? Or I now know that you have a good resource here where you could handle a deeper dive into your belief. These little breaks. This is the hidden secret of street epistemology. The biggest growth happens after the talk, when you're thinking about what we just talked about. Yeah.

Sean McCraney [01:00:28] John, can I say one thing, please? And that is what you exemplified in stopping short because you felt it wasn't ethical to pursue. And what John emphasized is that's really an important aspect. I can't emphasize enough to those people who are of faith how important it is for them to learn to shut their mouth and to cut it off, too. When a Mormon says, I believe this, then you're just like, I love you, man. Or a Catholic says, I believe the okay, man, it's okay. We don't need to go to war. And so on my side, learning from you two, we should shut our mouths. Who cares?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:07] Let them have it. What makes it tough, though, is when there's conditions set on the relationship, like, I can't hang out with you or be your friend if you don't also believe What? I think it's bullshit. That really irks me.

Sean McCraney [01:01:17] It irks me, too. It's not the faith, as far as I see it.

John Dehlin [01:01:22] Yeah. Okay. So what I want to do now, if it's okay, is kind of process what you just experienced. So, Shamakrini, you just experienced street epistemology. You are super smart. So I think you know exactly what. What Anthony just did with you. I'd be curious to hear, number one, if you had to describe what street epistemology is, what it's doing and what it's getting at. What. What do you think street epistemology is and what is it getting at based on what you just experienced?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:54] Go ahead and please be honest. Like, if you thought it was weird or campy or.

John Dehlin [01:01:59] Well, like how. How you experienced it is different than what you experienced. So first explain, if you don't mind, what you think you just experienced and why we would fly Anthony here to teach us this technique. So what did you just experience? And then we'll talk about how. How it was for you. Does that make sense?

Sean McCraney [01:02:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:18] What and why. What did you just experience and why do you think this is important or interesting based on what you experienced?

Sean McCraney [01:02:24] What I experienced not knowing, Anthony, was a respectful inquiry into why I believe what I believe with the open possibility of planting seeds for me to challenge it a little bit more.

John Dehlin [01:02:44] Challenge what challenge?

Sean McCraney [01:02:46] Why I believe what I believe. Putting some seeds in there for me to say, well, you know, as Anthony said, when I drive away, he made a good point on this. And I think that's what was going on. That's what I experienced from him, most notably. It was not antagonistic. It was not. He didn't talk down to me. He didn't besmirch my beliefs. He just really wanted to seem to know. And when you can discern that from somebody's heart, that's a great thing. Yeah. It opens up for, hey, I'll be completely transparent with you. And I love that. Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:03:22] Wow.

Sean McCraney [01:03:23] I loved it.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:03:24] Phenomenal to hear.

John Dehlin [01:03:24] How does that feel?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:03:25] It feels great. Because that's what I'm hoping to achieve.

Sean McCraney [01:03:29] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:03:29] Is to really be sincere and authentic and understand your views and then provide the clearest reflection of your views back to you. Now, you've already done a lot of processing on this, it's clear, but a lot of people aren't as accomplished in that area as you are. But I still think that it was. I thought it was valuable for me to understand it and for me to reflect it back to you. And this is the type of feedback that makes me think that there's really something to this approach that could be used for all different types of beliefs. Not just religious, not just religion, not just religion, but for politics. And is this the best school for our kids to go to and the biggest decisions that we make in our lives? This is a great way to carefully think about how we're coming to our conclusions. And then when I hear feedback like that, it bolsters my confidence in this approach that there's something good about it, there's something useful for people.

Sean McCraney [01:04:22] From a Christian perspective, which is the perspective I operate by, by faith, we talk about the fruit of the spirit, which is love, joy, peace, mercy, kindness, long suffering, patience. And you exhibited all of those you see, and those are the.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:04:37] How is that possible? I don't believe in it.

Sean McCraney [01:04:38] Right, right, you don't believe in it. Christians call that the fruit of the spirit. But where I could sit across the table from a. From a Christian of another denomination who would not possess those things I just experienced here on tape, the fruit of the spirit from a non believer. That's why I say doctrines don't matter. It's the love that comes out from the person. That's what I care about. And I receive that from you. So the why I think it's beneficial in the Christian sense is you employ the very things we claim that are important, that most of us don't follow. And that's beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:05:13] Did you just call Anthony Magnavasco a better Christian than some Christians?

Sean McCraney [01:05:16] I did. I did.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:05:18] Or the attributes of one?

John Dehlin [01:05:19] Maybe.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:05:20] Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you.

Sean McCraney [01:05:24] I mean it. So.

John Dehlin [01:05:26] So, Sean, as you're thinking about, you know, your ministry is primarily to believing Mormons, or at least it has been historically. And as you're thinking about this approach of street epistemology, is it. I'm sure you're connecting the dots on how this might be useful or effective. Tell me, tell me if you're seeing that and if you can, can you capture or explain why you can see some utility with street epistemology even in your. Hopefully in your context.

Sean McCraney [01:06:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:06] Why. Why it might be useful for Mormons. For Mormons.

Sean McCraney [01:06:09] For Mormons. For. Okay, there is. There's faith and we know that there is reasonable faith and there is bad faith. And so when you're hitting bad faith, I think what you're doing is exceptional because I think it will really help people become unchained to bad faith practices and beliefs as you get closer and closer to reasonable faith. It may not be as effective, but I think it will be beneficial because even in realms of reasonable faith, what you're doing is asking people to say, why do you believe like you do? And people really, from my experience, they have no idea. They just don't. And so I think it's very valuable and applicable within the religious realm. Mormons and the people who come to our church could benefit by this. Think why. I mean, God says, you got to worship him with your heart, soul, and mind. It's not mindless. This appeals to the mind. Figure it out why you believe what you do. Because people can only get stronger with good. Not with good information, not weaker. And so I think it's a great thing.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:24] I feel like I'm expected to say something at this moment, but I don't know what more I could say. I mean, this is really valuable for us to get this kind of feedback, and it's not uncommon. We get this feedback quite a bit from people, not only people who have participated in these interactions, but have listened to them or watched them. I get countless emails and messages from people that say, this is a. I see the value in this approach, and I'm now starting to use it and seeing the benefits of it, not just with the people that I encounter and use it with, but in my own growth. It's helping me be a more responsible thinker and being a little bit more careful about what I profess to be the case. And I think that that's great for humanity. That is something that we need to foster and develop as much as we can, especially today.

Sean McCraney [01:08:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:13] And also, what I wanted to add after hearing your response, I don't think, Anthony, what I heard you say is street epistemology. You can see it being really effective with people who are holding bad beliefs, but maybe less effective with people who are holding what you would call good beliefs, reasonable beliefs. And I would just say, I don't think Anthony's goal for street epistemology would be to challenge or destroy any beliefs, including ones that you would deem as reasonable. I think it's just. It's like a direction that it helps people move along, a direction where they just can take these tools and continually be evaluating the foundations of their beliefs to make sure that whatever beliefs they choose to have can. Can be on the most solid foundation as possible. So I don't think Anthony's goal is to destroy belief. And. And we had this last night when I was talking to you. You're like, I was asking what your beliefs are, and you're like, I believe in love and I believe in family. And I'm like, well, what's that based on? You're like, well, it feels good. And I'm, you know, and so Anthony has beliefs, you know, and. And he can't demonstrate love or family as being a viable or credible legitimate belief any more than you can or can't say that God or Jesus are. It's ultimately rooted on a feeling. So I don't. All I'm saying is I don't think your goal, Anthony, is to destroy all belief. It's. It's just to be able to get this set of tools, to be able to make sure that your beliefs are as well grounded as possible in as solid of a foundation as possible and in a foundation that does the least harm and the most good.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:09:55] Yeah, that's a good. That's a good way of putting it. I like to phrase it as this, that by participating in this, the application of these tools internally and with other people. The idea here is to align our beliefs with the likeliness of it being true because it has implications for how we act out and behave. Now, interestingly, your belief is causing you to behave better, like you are a better person because you have this belief. If that is the goal of se, then why would we want to challenge something like that? Now? It's worth pursuing because there may be limitations to this conclusion that you've come to, and there might be other ways of achieving meaning and purpose without that

John Dehlin [01:10:37] or being a good person.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:38] We always want to keep pushing a little bit and never be content with where we're at.

Sean McCraney [01:10:42] Right.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:42] Because we act out on the beliefs that we hold and curtailing our actions, aligning our actions with the confidence that we have in our conclusions is really a useful thing. So we have people running around and interacting with reality in the most responsible way possible. That is how humans survive. That's what we have to do to get off this rock and move on and make this thing real.

John Dehlin [01:11:10] Well, I think of today as SC grad school a little bit. Kara. I would just love to hear any reflections you have of what you just experienced and just freeform. How are you thinking? How are you feeling? I took a picture of you with the big grin on your face because I think you were kind of even emotion at one point. Kind of the tears. Like, what?

Guest 8 [01:11:32] I'm just being happy.

John Dehlin [01:11:33] Yeah.

Guest 8 [01:11:34] That we got to do this. Yeah, yeah. I mean, even when I was Mormon, I like to talk to people of differing beliefs and understand why they believe what they believe. I took a lot of psychology classes in college that read Psychology books. And I always wanted to know the foundations for Mormon, why people can believe things so strongly that are very different than what I believed growing up in like Provo, Utah, surrounded by nothing but other people going to seminary and believing in the same things and really thinking, wow, they live good lives, you know, so that's always been really foundational to like my interests and I hope a lot of the other listeners interests as well. And so I hope from what people get from this conversation is just another way to understand people in this world that we have, you know, 8 billion or so people on planet Earth and, you know, a billion Muslims, a billion Hindus, a billion, you know, Catholics. All different types of people who I believe are believing things not based on evidence, but are still human beings who still have a functionality to the things that they believe. And so if I just take my ego out of it and take out that I want them to only believe in true things, I kind of put that to the side and just ask them and with whatever interactions I have, whether it's online or in person, what gets to the root of what gets people ticking. And so I thought that was kind of cool that Sean came in and a lot of discoveries about Sean today, about what makes you tick, what motivates you, what keeps you going, and every person's unique. I could have thought, okay, because Sean runs a church and Sean came from this. And I could have made a lot of assumptions. But you never know until you ask. And so I think SE provides a lot of tools to just start conversations to ask people. Don't make assumptions about what people believe. Ask them. Here are some tools to do that. So, yeah, thanks for coming in, Sean.

John Dehlin [01:13:23] Oh, my pleasure. Yeah, yeah, thank you, Kara. I just want to. I just had a realization. For me, maybe the. The real payoff of se, if it can get to what we just experienced today, isn't the change of belief. It's the arrival at what I like to call emotional intimacy, which is where. When people can be, if you can. We talked about the shield of a belief earlier. When you have these dogmatic beliefs that you are holding up between you and somebody, there's something between you and somebody else, and you're not looking at each other's eyes, looking into each other's heart, genuinely curious about who they are, trying to see them. You know, we sometimes refer, we kind of define intimacy as into me, seeing into me, seeing intimacy. Right. Seeing someone. I. When I. When I thought about the best descriptions of Jesus growing up, it's this guy that sits down in front of you, looks you in the eyes, and can see you all the way into your very soul. He gets you. He knows you and understands you. So many people that are Christian, in my view, love that idea of this just person who knows everything about them, sees them and all their flaws, all their strengths, all their weaknesses, and all their flaws, and just loves them unconditionally. And Sean, you're smiling a little bit. Why are you smiling?

Sean McCraney [01:14:51] I'm agreeing. That is the general desire.

John Dehlin [01:14:54] Yeah. And so what a conversation like this does is that if you do it right, it allows people to take their shields, put them down. You're showing curiosity into someone's framework for living and giving them a chance to really talk about it. And you're having this exchange. I think, Sean, we. I think our listeners are going to walk away from this going, man, Sean is a really thoughtful, sensitive, altruistic, caring human. And that only happened because, A, you were willing to ask those questions of him, Anthony. B, Sean, you were willing to at least give it a try. And then see, Anthony, you were willing to do it in a way that didn't have him pull up his shield and block it such that then by cultivating that fertile soil of what can lead to emotional intimacy, Sean, you were able to kind of open up your heart and be vulnerable and honest. And then as soon as you're were, the emotional reaction to Anthony is, man, brother, I think you might just be fine as you are, and I don't think we need to go any further right now. Right. And then. But also, you are going to be walking away, Sean, saying, huh, I learned a couple things. Maybe I'll. Maybe I'll reflect a little more, and maybe, maybe you'll grow a little bit from this.

Sean McCraney [01:16:19] And all welcomed.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:16:20] And few people understand that you can even get to that level of intimacy in a conversation, because most of the examples that are online are people arguing and demeaning other people. And it's so tempting to want to challenge the claims that you're. You didn't make a lot of claims, actually, but many times believers will say, well, the book says this or the book says that, or these things are true. And it's really tempting to show directly that you're wrong. And it's far more productive to encourage your interviewee person, you're speaking with, the human that you're talking to, to explain how they concluded that they're right. And that really shifts the whole dynamic. And we can really get down to the foundation of what's propping this up and the Ethical considerations that come into play and should we meet again, do we need to keep talking about this? And these are the type of real conversations that I think people are hungry for. And I'm sure you get messages, you've told me you get messages from people who are looking to have better conversations. And this approach takes a little while to learn. There's a lot of knee jerk human reactions that can get in the way of it. But if you learn to recognize them, you can account for them and choose another path and really get down to the base of what's propping it all up and then recognizing when it's time to end it and stepping away and letting you live your life.

John Dehlin [01:17:45] That's great. So, Sean, as I'm thinking to the classic Heart of the Matter episodes from the past, as a Mormon missionary, even as a Mormon seminary student, you're introduced to this idea of Bible bashing where like every Mormon missionary's dream is to find some evangelical minister and then Bible bash and you're both like proof texting the Bible and, and interpreting things in, in your own advantageous way. And you all the heat and no light and you go to battle and. And I'm thinking about when you used to have, do you still have call in? Do you still do call ins? Okay, you used to call in. Someone will call in and challenge you. And that would be like the drama. That would be like the good tv. It would, he's bashing, you know, and people, it's like red meat, you know, people tend to like that. I would love to see a Sean McCraney call in show where you practice street epistemology with the people calling in. It'd be fun to see Sean McCraney employ the tools of street epistemology with. Maybe on your show it'd be fun. If at some point you ever want to experiment with street epistemology with one of your guests, I need to stand up on Heart of the Matter.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:18:57] This might be a good time to mention that we're working on a course for street epistemology. To get these tools in the hands of people. You can go online and you can actually watch video examples on YouTube and see me literally doing this approach on the street with people. Even some missionaries from the LDS Church happened to walk by a couple times and had some great talks. It's funny too, because they even mentioned this idea of bashing. They were wondering if I was going to be bashing their religion. And I think they may have been disappointed when they realized I wasn't. I think they were eager to. I don't want to put words in their mouth, but as I was watching the replay yesterday, I think people expect to be. To be in a battle about their beliefs. They're not anticipating a reflectful, thoughtful, caring conversation. And that's probably. That may be a problem in of itself that there's this expectation that we have to argue about these things and you really don't have to.

John Dehlin [01:19:51] Sean, is there a reason you stopped doing Collins? I'm just curious. Was it for that reason the Bible bashing you didn't find to be super useful?

Sean McCraney [01:19:58] We lost a majority of our viewers when we were taken off TV after the seven years. And so the calls started dwindling and then they started being repeated. People who call every week and I just saw the writing on the wall. This is just boring, you know, so we just stopped it.

John Dehlin [01:20:17] Nice.

Sean McCraney [01:20:17] We're making a huge change in February of next year, so I'll let you know about that.

John Dehlin [01:20:22] Okay.

Sean McCraney [01:20:22] It'll be fun. Maybe we can talk again.

John Dehlin [01:20:24] Oh, for sure. I mean, I was going to say I owe you one, so you owe me nothing. No, I do. I do. I owe you one. Sean, really quick, I want to give you a chance to critique, criticize. Is there anything you didn't like about what you experienced with Anthony? Okay. And. Or do you see any problems with this approach that you would just want to gently say, hey, okay, I can see it being useful in this scenarios, and you kind of already did this a little bit. But like, I want to give you a chance to say, hey, Anthony, here's where I think this, this approach could be harmful or not or be misused. Is there any critique you want to offer either in the experience of today or just in your perception of the approach overall?

Sean McCraney [01:21:07] The only thing I could say, but it was played out here by Anthony handling it right, is that we believe what we want to believe. Pretty much. We believe what's convenient to us. We believe what our prejudices are, what we've been taught by mom and dad. We cling to things for the certainty so that it doesn't rock our world. And if you meet somebody who hasn't taken the time to explore their heartfelt beliefs, it's like opening the kimono to someone who's not ready to see the nakedness. And I mean, that would be the only thing I could see. If you happen to do street epistemology with someone on the street and you happen to tap that person who has not examined anything in their life, I guess it could be detrimental in that sense.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:21:52] Very good. I'm glad that you recognize that. That is something that we, I think, are very cautious of. We don't know who we're going to run into, what stage of their journey in life they're at.

Sean McCraney [01:22:04] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:22:04] And you could. I've had situations where people were traumatized from these simple. Well, what I would consider simple questions, but they've never considered them before. And when you do it enough, you can possibly become numb to the emotional component of what is happening on the receiving end of your questions. So that is a good learning. This is a good teaching moment for people who might be considering getting into SE is really pay attention to how your conversation partner is reacting and what they're saying. And even if they say, go ahead and proceed, I'll be fine. If you think that that's not the case, then you should go with what you think is the case, which is what you did. Which is what I did.

Sean McCraney [01:22:41] A really quick story, anecdotal story, please. I'm sitting with a hardcore Calvinist at Denny's and I'm on the other side. I'm leaving the whole hardcore scene of Christianity And a woman who's disabled gets out of her car wearing a clerical collar. And this guy jumps up and he confronts her right when she walks in the door. What is wrong with you? Have you not read second Timothy about women? And she's like, he couldn't even articulate anything about it. And he's just obliterating her psyche in front of everybody there. And I'm like, I cannot believe how entitled we get with our beliefs that we think we can destroy somebody like a disabled woman who's wearing a clerical collar because she wants to represent her church. It was so repugnant to me, I'll never forget it. And that's helped me come around and start to grow up a little bit from the heart of the matter. Antagonistic days.

John Dehlin [01:23:53] I'm not throwing shade on you.

Sean McCraney [01:23:55] Yeah, no, it's okay. I need a little shade.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:23:59] Well, since you're reminiscing. When I was going out initially to do street epistemology, I went to the Alamo where all the street preachers would meet because I thought, I want to talk to the most hardcore believers that are out there and use this approach because if it works, then it should work with the most dogmatic, closed minded people out there. So my incentives or my goals were off from the start. It didn't dawn on me later that you have to meet people where they're at and you have to take Your own goals out of it. You really do. Yes. I want to understand how you got there. But trying to bring people around to your point of view or targeting specific demographics to use a tool like this with them, it seems like it's not in the spirit of what we're trying to do with street epistemology. We want the. Want this to be a tool available to everybody and we're trying to caution people to use it responsibly because the questions can lead to life long changes and your conversation partner may not be ready for that.

John Dehlin [01:25:04] Love it. All right, well, Sean McCraney, I can't thank you enough for being willing to take this call in the morning and just show up and do this. Of course, Anthony. Super duper grateful for leading us through this exercise and being willing.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:25:23] Thank you for having me here. This is great. And thanks for your time coming on such short notice.

Sean McCraney [01:25:26] No, thank you. No, I've benefited from this. Yeah, really have.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:25:30] Good.

Sean McCraney [01:25:31] And from meeting all. Seeing John again and meeting you and, and Kara.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:25:35] I feel the same.

John Dehlin [01:25:36] Yeah. And Kara, thanks so much for, for running the board and being here and, and participating. This is kind of.

Guest 8 [01:25:42] It's just fun to. Listen.

John Dehlin [01:25:44] Can you now die and go to secular heaven now that you've experienced today?

Guest 8 [01:25:48] I haven't met Bill Real yet.

John Dehlin [01:25:50] Okay.

Guest 8 [01:25:50] Waiting for this weekend.

John Dehlin [01:25:51] Okay. After that though.

Sean McCraney [01:25:52] I know where he'll be tomorrow. Just kidding.

John Dehlin [01:25:55] I mean, by the time this goes, I would ask you to plug it, but by the time we air.

Sean McCraney [01:25:58] I'm not plugging anything. Yeah, whatever.

John Dehlin [01:26:03] Anything. Do you have any predictions of what happens tomorrow? Just for fun? This will air after.

Sean McCraney [01:26:09] I'm demanding peace. I am still sick of it. I'm sick of all of the, all of the antagonism. I know you've been the brunt end of some of the antagonism. I think it's just so repulsive and I just think it's immature on all sides. And so I'm taking the lead because I'm moderating this event, a debate and I'm just not going to allow it. It's going to be an. Yeah, I'm not going to allow it. No one knows this because I think.

John Dehlin [01:26:36] Okay. And I won't tell them, but I think they're expecting. Expecting a bloodbath. They want. I think they want a bloodbath.

Sean McCraney [01:26:43] They're not getting it. What?

John Dehlin [01:26:44] Oh, wow. So we got the skinny.

Guest 8 [01:26:46] Just cut their mics.

Sean McCraney [01:26:47] You got the skinny. You did.

John Dehlin [01:26:49] You're not gonna allow.

Sean McCraney [01:26:50] No, I'm gonna say this is ridiculous. Stop It. This is a human being. This. These people have feelings. They have moms and dads. They have children. Knock it off. Oh, my God. Because I just. I don't get it. I get it, but I don't get it. Not at all. Yeah. It's got to stop. We got to stop it. You're trying here. You're trying to bring in reason. You're trying to bring in love and kindness, the fruit of the spirit. And yet under the auspices of religion. Oh, yeah. We're fighting like this.

John Dehlin [01:27:18] Yeah.

Sean McCraney [01:27:18] Oh, it's sick. Ooh, I'm getting a little testy.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:27:22] Where can I watch this?

John Dehlin [01:27:23] Kara's, Smiley, Anthony's. So tomorrow you may want to show. So tomorrow, a. A couple, like really kind of Gen Z millennial Mormon apologists are going to be debating one of the leading ex Mormon podcasters. It's actually three. Three believing Mormon apologists that are kind of younger.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:27:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:51] Debating kind of older attorney, former apologist, popular former apologist, now ex Mormon podcaster. They're going to be debating each other. Three against one. His name's Radio Free Mor. He doesn't use his real name, so he goes by Radio Free Mormon. They're going to be doing a one on three debate at Sean McCraney's church where Sean is moderating and Anthony's like. Anthony wants to. You can go. For sure. Yeah.

Sean McCraney [01:28:20] I'd love to hear your response to everything that's being said.

Guest 8 [01:28:24] Is it going to be on film anywhere?

Sean McCraney [01:28:25] Yeah, we're going to tape. We're going to stream it. We're going to tape the whole thing.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:28:28] Oh, I'll promote it on my channel. I think people would really like to. To watch.

Sean McCraney [01:28:31] That'd be fun. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:32] All right.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:28:33] You're moderating it.

Sean McCraney [01:28:34] Yeah, I'm gonna try.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:28:35] Okay. What time is that? Is that gonna.

Sean McCraney [01:28:37] Six o'? Clock? I'd get there at five. Parking's terrible.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:28:41] We doing a dinner tomorrow or there's happy hours.

John Dehlin [01:28:44] We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. We'll take.

Sean McCraney [01:28:45] Bring a bottle.

Guest 8 [01:28:48] You'll need it.

Sean McCraney [01:28:50] We're gonna need it.

Guest 8 [01:28:51] For any listener, listeners probably know what exactly the type of environment is if they know the players that are in this thing. Anthony does not know. And it would take too long to explain. Explain.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:29:01] Actually, I'd be really intrigued to hear what the progressive Mormon arguments are. What are the progressive Mormon arguments?

John Dehlin [01:29:09] Oh, we could talk about that all day.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:29:10] That's what I really want to go out to lunch.

Guest 8 [01:29:12] And I used to.

John Dehlin [01:29:13] I used to be the poster boy for progressive Mormon arguments before the church kicked me out. So. Yeah, but, but you know, I, I told rfm, please don't do this. Like these, these guys just want attention. They act in bad faith, they hit below the belt. And this is just going to be. There's nothing, it's all going to be all heat and no light. So I was, I was against it. But RFM's in a grown man and I respect him and I love him and so it'll be, it's fun to know there'll be an added dimension of you trying to keep the discourse civil.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:29:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:51] Because we don't need. The last thing humanity needs in 2021 is more contentious, mean spirited arguments and debate. I think I'm right with you. Yeah. All right. All right. That'll be fun.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:03] That sounds.

John Dehlin [01:30:04] Cares. Grinning.

Guest 8 [01:30:05] I'm grinning because I. The three on one dynamic is going to be really interesting. That's how RFM wanted it to be. He all, he called me and I agreed to do this debate. And I was like, yeah. And then a little bit more that I thought about it, I was like, I really don't like to be in that negative. It's going to be a lot of negativity as you, I'm sure you just said, like basically have to cut their mics two minutes into it.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:24] I'm kind of curious what RFM would think of se. My sense would be that they probably wouldn't be that crazy about it. I've noticed that people who love to debate and argue and really get into the battle, they don't like this approach. They are really, they think, ding, ding, ding. They're like, well, you're being deceptive. This is manipulation. It's persuasion. You're not revealing your position. Now, I don't reveal my position because I don't want to influence you, but if you ask me about my position, I'll reveal it. And they like this. They think it's stupid to let bad arguments go unanswered. And our position, the SE position is you might think that it's stupid, but they don't. And it's important for you to understand why they think that. It is a good reason. And that is a big shift that, that people who are very pro debate, I don't think that they get and I don't know how you might actually, it might be interesting to do SE on somebody who thinks that SE is not as good of an approach as a debate approach.

John Dehlin [01:31:26] I mean, I think, you know, if I were to try and represent RFM'S position. It would just be that these guys deceive, they lie. They know they're deceiving and lying people, and they engage in ad hominem in very destructive ways. And it's kind of like, I think from RFM standpoint, because generally rfm, he's an attorney, and he. He comports himself on his podcast very fairly and diplomatically. He does a really good job of trying to just lay out the evidence and let people arrive at their own conclusions without a lot of bombast. But I think he's kind of looking at this as the only way to stand up to a bully is. Is to punch him in the nose.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:32:07] There is a time and place for debate. I don't say that you should never debate. There's value in debating and spotlighting bad ideas in that way for the audience to then see it very starkly.

John Dehlin [01:32:18] I think that's what he's going for.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:32:20] Yeah. I think that's usually what people who go the debate route do. They understand that it's a performance to illustrate to the observers how faulty your thinking is, how faulty my opponent's thinking is. And the problem, though, is that people in the audience see that and think that that's how I should engage with my loved ones.

Sean McCraney [01:32:38] Right.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:32:38] And that's where it falls apart and becomes really ugly. You really should use, or at the very least consider using the Essie approach with your loved ones and people that you have relationships with that you cherish.

John Dehlin [01:32:50] And if I were to try and channel what Kwaku and Cardin and Brad's motivation are, they view ex Mormons as attacking their sacred beliefs. They view us as attacking Joseph Smith and undermining the Book of Mormon, doing it for money, doing it for fame, and in a way that harms a lot of good, faithful people who otherwise would be living happy, healthy lives. And they're just basically saying, you guys are mean and critical to Joseph Smith and the church and its leaders. So if you can dish it out, you can take it. I think that's what Brad Cardin and Kwaku, honestly, I don't know. And maybe there's ego involved, but we all have ego. So, like, if any of us are going to claim we don't have ego, then for sure we have ego. Right. So anyway, Sean, you've got your work cut out for you.

Sean McCraney [01:33:35] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:36] That's all I'm going to say. All right. So, Kara, it looks like you'll be taking Anthony Magnabosco to the debate tomorrow.

Guest 8 [01:33:44] I wasn't planning on going. I was gonna go meditate.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:33:48] I'll Uber over there. I hope that's not too far.

John Dehlin [01:33:50] Okay.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:33:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:51] All right.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:33:51] Go to that.

John Dehlin [01:33:52] All right. Well, again, Sean, you're awesome. I owe you one. Thank you.

Guest 8 [01:33:56] Yeah, thank you, Sean.

John Dehlin [01:33:57] Thank you.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:33:59] Thank you for your time and going into that level of detail, and that was really great.

John Dehlin [01:34:03] And Anthony, thank you. You're awesome.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:34:04] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:34:05] And Kara, I love working with you. Thank you so much.

Guest 8 [01:34:08] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [01:34:08] All right, and we'll be. We'll be coming back for just a final wrap up on street epistemology. We're going to maybe grab break for lunch. Thanks, Sean. And then we'll come back for just a part four where we will be talking about maybe role playing a tiny bit, using street epistemology with believing family and friends within a Mormon context and seeing how Anthony might give us tips and tricks through role play, where Karen and I are going to kind of role play believing Mormon parents maybe. And then. And then Anthony's going to represent how a Mormon non believer or former believer would employ street epistemology in that scenario. So stay tuned for part four. Come right back. We hope you'll love it. Thanks, everybody. Take care. See you guys all again very soon.

Role-Play SE as a Son Talking to Believing Parents

Part 5 of 5 · Ep. 1517

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to part four of this epic Mormon Stories podcast. Interview with Anthony Magnabosco, the founder or chief proponent of street epistemology for and with the Street Epistemology International. Is that the nonprofit?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:00:18] I'm the executive director and a founder of that organization.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] All right.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:00:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] And we've just done umpteen hours with Anthony. Part one was all about his personal story, what led to him starting street epistemology, and what it's been like for him to be an advocate of street epistemology and kind of an Internet. I don't want to say celebrity, but he.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] He would hate that term.

John Dehlin [00:00:37] But like a public figure in this realm. That was part one. It's really worth checking out. Part two, we've already talked about the foundations of street epistemology. What it is, why it is, how to do it, how not to do it. That was part two. It's really worthwhile. And then part three, we had as a special guest on our show, the Sean McCraney, ex Mormon, evangelical Christian, had a lovely, delightful conversation with Sean. He came in on the spot. I'm really, really happy with that. Part three, check all those out because they're all, in my opinion, solid gold. And I've been doing this for 16 years with over 1500 hours of content and I'm giving it a thumbs up.

John Dehlin [00:01:15] So I think you'll love it.

John Dehlin [00:01:17] But now we're doing final part part four. We are here with Kara Burrell. Hey, Kara.

Guest 9 [00:01:24] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] Thanks for joining us.

Guest 9 [00:01:26] So fun. Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] And what we're going to be doing now is role play, which is Kara's favorite exercise. Right. Kara, you're on record as saying you love roleplay. True.

Guest 9 [00:01:34] Yeah. Yeah. John, make sure to advertise that.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:01:37] Let's be more specific here.

Guest 9 [00:01:38] I love.

John Dehlin [00:01:42] What we're going to do now is we're going to role play street epistemology. So Anthony is going to play the role of you, the unorthodox and or non believing, formerly believing Mormon or the ex Mormon or the recently turned ex Mormon. That's the role Anthony's gonna play. So if this were the Mormon temple ceremony, Anthony's playing Adam, and you, listener and viewer, are the attendee of the Mormon temple ceremony. In other words, Anthony is proxy for you. Think about Anthony being the role model for how you want to behave with your believing family, getting you in the

John Dehlin [00:02:20] mindset of what we're wanting you to get out of this.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] And then I, Kara and I are going to play your parents. So Kara is going to be believing mom of Adult child, ex Mormon child.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] How does that feel for you, Kara?

Guest 9 [00:02:38] Great. My name will be Carol in this one.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] Carol.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] That's good.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] And I'll be Dad. I'm going to be dad. Adult father of adult, ex Mormon. I'll be Dave. And Dave and Carol. Does that sound right?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:02:54] And I'll be Adam. Is that what I'm hearing?

John Dehlin [00:02:56] Yeah, you could be Adam. That's a little sacrilegious. But we'll tell you later why we

John Dehlin [00:03:03] set you up for. Did I just walk into something?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:03:04] I'll be Anthony. Just call me Anthony.

John Dehlin [00:03:06] How about that?

John Dehlin [00:03:07] And yeah, we're going to role play and we're going to do street epistemology and we're going to bring you into it. So the scenario is you've lost your faith, your parents already know you came out to them a while back, or they noticed you weren't wearing garments, or they saw the coffee maker on your counter there was. Or you sent them that awful CES letter, like exit letter that caused all this problems. And there's been time for it to dissipate, time for emotions to cool down. As we covered in some of the previous episodes. You don't want to do this when emotions are heightened, when things are raw, when the amygdala, the emotional center of your brain is like firing, or their amygdalas are firing in full force. You want to have proper set and setting, to borrow a term from Michael Pollan and all my friends in the psychedelic community. You want to have proper set and setting to do a street epistemology. And let's just say that things are calm.

John Dehlin [00:04:03] You're.

John Dehlin [00:04:04] There aren't kids running around, nobody's angry, and you're just in this living room with your parents and they're showing some signs and willingness to talk about your faith crisis. And things are kind of non volatile and non acrimonious and semi congenial and open. So that's the setting. Anthony, is there anything you want to add to.

John Dehlin [00:04:30] To the setup before we dive in?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:04:32] I think you set it up really good. The challenge in this situation is that there will be two believers. And typically when we do se, there's one. So. But this is good. This could be representative of a situation that you might find yourself in. So I can probably try to show how I would use S E with two parents at the same time, which brings additional complexities to it. But I'm ready to go.

John Dehlin [00:04:52] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:04:52] All right. And this is something, you know, I don't think, Anthony, you've totally done something like This, I mean, it's role play. But also usually your street epistemology is in the context of like meeting someone

John Dehlin [00:05:04] who comes up to you and you're kind of. And I know you're not always doing

John Dehlin [00:05:08] this, but like on a street side

John Dehlin [00:05:10] or in a university square and you're just having a loose exchange.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] So what's a little bit different about

John Dehlin [00:05:14] this is it's with believing beloved family members in a slightly different context.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] Right.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:05:22] The context is really different from what I usually do. It's usually with strangers on the street who aren't expecting it. Now in this case, the parents may not be expecting it. But what's different here is that the stakes are much higher. These are loved ones that I value and appreciate and trust. And I'm sure that's reciprocated with most of your listeners. These are these. There's more going on. There's. This is a much more. There's a lot more to lose here as opposed to using SE with a stranger who you might just have five minutes or ten minutes with.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] And also to be really clear, we've

John Dehlin [00:05:57] made this point in the past three episodes.

John Dehlin [00:06:00] The goal here is not to cause

John Dehlin [00:06:03] your parents to lose their faith, but

John Dehlin [00:06:05] it is to give you a tool in your tool belt for having a constructive, healthy conversation that isn't a battle, that isn't acrimonious, but that allows your parents at a minimum to at least see how you. Maybe to see how you have reevaluated the foundations of your beliefs and or non beliefs. That's kind of like at least the minimum case outcome that we're hoping for here. And if it's healthy for your parents to have them be a little bit more mindful or introspective about why they believe the things they do. Like that's. We're not shooting. This is not how to get your

John Dehlin [00:06:47] parents to lose their faith. I just want to be explicit about that.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] This is how to not blow up your relationship, but to have a healthy and constructive conversation about faith that could lead to growth potentially on the part of your parents. Is that. Or loved ones, is that fair to say?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:07:03] I think that's a great way of putting it. This is to figure out where your parents stand on your non belief. And it's an opportunity for me to explain why I don't believe to my loved ones. And if they're willing, it's an opportunity for me to explore with them why they think that this is true. They may not want to go there. That's like the icing on the cake in these situations. Because usually I think as somebody who's not believing this stuff anymore, you're almost on the defensive here. They're going to probably want to know why you don't believe it and put it upon themselves to bring you around to their point of view. So that's going to be the primary focus. But ideally we want to get to the point where the parents are open to allowing me to challenge them respectfully using questions. And that puts a little bit of. That's like, that's, that's advanced stuff in these situations. But we're going to try to cover the whole gamut, it sounds like.

Guest 9 [00:07:57] Yeah. And if I wanted to add just one thing, the time that I've used SE with my Mormon believing parents and friends and family, I haven't applied all of the principles of the informed consent or the ethics thing. And so I'm glad that we went heavy into that before as well. But what I wanted to say was that in Mormonism, you're constantly told a testimony is found in the bearing of it and you're surrounded by other believers quite a bit. And so it's not often that Mormons get an opportunity to be in an a street epistemology type situation where they're being asked about the foundations of it from somebody that's a non believer. And so I think this will be a good exercise because I just, I can't think of a time where a Mormon is able to really articulate that in this type of situation. It's usually in a testimony meeting where you're surrounded by other believers that are all, you know, crying at your testimony, patting you on the back, giving you a hug afterwards, after. It's very much like a group think a tribal situation, but somebody who's part of your tribe, you, your family, who is now on the outside, who doesn't believe the same things, trying to come to an understanding with one another is kind of why I think it's important to have these conversations.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:09:07] So for sure.

John Dehlin [00:09:09] All right, so enough talking about the talking. We are going to do street epistemology.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:09:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:14] Is that all right?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:09:15] That's great.

John Dehlin [00:09:15] Were you gonna say something?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:09:16] I was gonna say, hey, mom and dad, how's it going? You guys doing good? Thanks for sitting down and talking with me about this stuff. I know it's lot's been going on in the past and I'm getting the sense maybe you want to know where I stand on these things. Well, do you guys want to do it? You guys okay to do it?

John Dehlin [00:09:32] As the patriarch of the home. Son, I'm just going to start by saying that mom and I are really. We're worried about you. You know, we noticed you weren't wearing your garments. We noticed the coffee maker on your kitchen counter. We're worried about you. And we. We taught you to. To, you know, you've made certain covenants in the temple, and you promised to keep those covenants. And we see that you're. We're worried that you're not living up to the covenants that you've made. And we're worried about you. And we're not just worried about you. We're worried about your kids and your wife and. And frankly, we're heartbroken because we're an eternal family. And your. Your loss of faith, your breaking your covenants and falling away is jeopardizing your status with our eternal family. And so mom and I. Mom, is there anything you want to add? Because, you know, I'm just feeling kind

Guest 9 [00:10:40] of heartbroken that, you know, your father and I raised you with what we. But we believe and what we know is true, and what we know has worked for us in our life, and that's praying and reading the Scriptures and to see you not doing that, not following the commandments, we just. We know that that's what would bring you the most happiness. And we're just worried that you're not going to be living in a way that's going to bring you and your family happiness. It's. It's hard to watch. It's really hard to watch.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:11:04] Oh, I'm sorry that I feel bad that you worry about me in that way. And I can only imagine how difficult it must be to see me not believe this stuff, to believe this anymore, to walk away from the church and to have some of the things that maybe we shouldn't be doing, like the coffee maker in my house and things like that. But I guess when it really comes down to it, mom and dad, it wasn't like it was even a decision that I made. It just sort of happened to me. I value everything that you've taught me and how you raised me. I am also a questioner. I ask lots of questions, and if I can't find sufficient answers to them, then I have to sit with that and process that. And that's what I found myself doing. Despite the upbringing and your best intentions and all the study that we put into. That. I put into this. You've seen me put into this. I was a sincere believer at some point, but over the years, it's been a gradual process for me. So this isn't something that I just rationally came to. This was a very careful, thought out realization that I don't believe this anymore. So my hope is that you don't take my choice, my decision, or this position that I've arrived at personally. Maybe that's difficult for you to do, but that's my goal, is that maybe you can see that I've looked at the reasons that people give for thinking that this is true, and I just don't find it convincing. The other thing I want to make sure that I cover here is that I'm not entirely close minded to the possibility that it is true. I am still open to it. So this isn't a hard no for me at the moment. I just don't see any good reason to believe it.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] I'm so happy to hear that, that you're still open to believing because that's what we want. And so I think mom will agree that our biggest concern is that you've been reading anti Mormon literature. You've been listening to podcasts that are disruptive to faith. You've been trusting dangerous outside sources instead of the pure spring of, you know, the gospel. And mom and I want to know, are you saying your prayers and are you reading your scriptures? If you will just read the Book of Mormon. Are you reading the book of Mormon 10 to 15 minutes a day? Because mom and I are. If you would stop reading and listening to anti Mormon materials and just start praying and reading the Book of Mormon again, we are certain that you could recover your testimony and rejoin the covenant path. Mom?

Guest 9 [00:14:24] Yeah? You said that you're a questioner and I think this gospel is beautiful because God loves questions and he is your Father in heaven and he wants to hear from you. And I always hoped that you would study out these things for yourself and not take my word for it, not take your father's word for it. But, you know, dive into scripture and pray on the Word and find a testimony for yourself, find a personal conviction for yourself, and that will come from the Holy Ghost. Because that's what happened for me and what happened to your father. And I know that if you pray to your Father in heaven, he'll answer the prayer and you'll know that for yourself as well.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] And I don't mean to pile on, but the scriptures warn us about being learned. You know, you're a smart kid. We taught you to be smart. You've become educated. But the Book of Mormon teaches that the learned become prideful. And that gaining knowledge, if you don't hearken unto the counsels of Heavenly Father, becoming knowledgeable can make you prideful and they can lead you astray. And that's basically what it comes down to. We feel like you're being led astray.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:15:26] Yeah, I can definitely understand how you see it that way. I've actually found those resources to be invaluable in helping me really see things from a broader perspective, not just one side of it, which would be all the studying that you've seen me do with the Book of Mormon and all this, all the study that we ourselves have done and all the praying that we've done. I found it really useful to step away from my beliefs and look at them objectively to see if I can justify to myself that they're worth holding. And I haven't found anything that warrants me staying within these beliefs. I would even be a little prayer to me doesn't seem like it's a really good way for confirming the truth of claims. I'm suspicious of that approach and I understand that a lot of people pray to get answers and that type of stuff, but in my view that, I suppose it's my view that it's healthier for me to think objectively about how these views are actually true. That's what it really comes down to for me, I have to say, is that I want to be able to have a good reason for thinking that it's true. And I've prayed. You've seen me go to the temple and pray and do all the things that, that a good Mormon should be doing. I'm not exactly sure what I could do more from this point on that would actually change things. That being said, though, I am still open to coming around on it.

John Dehlin [00:17:20] So, son, we've taught you. I don't mean to hurt your feelings. We've taught you better than this. There's. There's the learning of men, there's science and the learning of men, and then there's the pure truth of Heavenly Father and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The pure way of knowing is, is living it, studying it, pondering it, praying about it, and getting the gift of the Holy Ghost. Having the Holy Ghost manifest to you

John Dehlin [00:17:52] the truth that is pure knowledge.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] This other stuff, this learning mumbo jumbo that you're doing is, is deception. And it's fooling you that science is

John Dehlin [00:18:02] wrong all the time.

John Dehlin [00:18:03] How many times has science gotten things wrong? Sure, you, you, you, the, the, the. The pure knowledge of Christ is only found through faith and through living the gospel that's pure knowledge. This other way is going to lead. Is going to lead you away from.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:18:23] Well, I used to think that, too. However, I've discovered in my search, in my studies that it's important for me to be able to demonstrate that what I think is true is actually the case and to be able to test it in a meaningful, rigorous way. I need more than just a feeling to confirm to me that something is true. And it seems like that is the only way that I can confirm that this belief is true. And that's just. Unfortunately, it's not sufficient enough for me. I need something a little more tangible before I'll commit my life to a belief. Do you understand?

John Dehlin [00:19:03] But Jesus said it's an iniquitous and a viperous generation to seek a sign like you're not. We walk by faith. We live by faith.

Guest 9 [00:19:12] God's ways are higher than our ways.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:19:14] Yes, yes. However, the things that are leading you to conclude that that's the case are the very things that I'm questioning. Does that make sense? So your conclusions, your thinking that I may be following a false doctrine or something, or getting too involved in science. These ideas, I think, are the result of your views that are based on things that you likely can't demonstrate to your own satisfaction. And if you're. I don't know if you want to do this or not, but if you do want to, if you want to get a sense of the questioning that I performed on myself to bring me to my view today, and I know that might be a scary thing, but if you're interested in exploring how you confirm that those things are true, then I'd be happy to get into that, because my sense is that if we can discover that the footing that you're basing this all on maybe isn't as solid as you think that it is, then maybe it will at the very least help you better understand why. I don't think that it's true now, but it may actually even cause you to take a second look at your views. Is that something that you guys are okay doing?

John Dehlin [00:20:38] I mean, in theory, but. Son, I need you to know that I don't want to speak for mom, but I have more certainty that God lives and Jesus is the Christ. If they were to appear in front of me now, I would not know any more then than I know now that. That God lives and Jesus is the Christ and that this is his true church. So, I mean. I mean, I. Sounds like you want to have. You want to kind of ask us some questions. I guess in theory, I'm willing to have that conversation. I just want you to know I know it's true. I know. I know it's true.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:21:12] I know. You know? Yes, I know.

John Dehlin [00:21:15] I don't want to speak for you, Mom.

Guest 9 [00:21:17] Yeah. At some point, we all have to question ourselves and look at the things we were raised with and actually decide if they're true or not. And I feel like I've done a sufficient amount of questioning in my life. If the Mormon Church is true, if Thomas S. Monson is the prophet, if Joseph Smith, you know, ushered in this restoration, and I feel like I've had enough experiences in my life that confirmed to me, similar to your father, that I couldn't ask for any more evidence because I have everything I could ever meet, need. And so I don't think you could ask a question that I haven't already thought about.

John Dehlin [00:21:52] Okay, sweetie? I think you mean Russell M. Nelson is the prophet, not Thomas S. Monson.

Guest 9 [00:21:58] Oh, I need to go take my pills.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] Sorry.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:22:01] Thanks, dad.

John Dehlin [00:22:05] Okay.

Guest 9 [00:22:05] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:22:05] Sorry. This is good.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:22:06] This is good, this is good. So. Well, yes, I, I've, I, I, I've known you my whole life, so I, it's, it, it's obvious to me that you really do think that this is true. And I, I, it's, it's clear that you think that you have really good reasons for thinking it. Are, are you okay with me questioning you? And if so, are you O. Asking questions to each of you with the idea that maybe your answers would be a little different because maybe the reasons that you believe. Dad, could be a lot different than the reasons that mom believe. Are you okay? Can we, can we explore this in a way where we could each maybe give our reasons for why we believe or don't believe? Would that be.

John Dehlin [00:22:50] Yeah. Because if you're going to try and plant the seeds of doubt within me or to try and weaken my faith, I'm not interested. If you're genuinely curious, that might be something I'm open to doing. I'm not open to you trying to undermine my faith.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:23:05] Sure. Well, that is a potential outcome here that actually could happen. But honestly, I am genuinely curious. Of the two of you, which reasons contribute most to your thinking that this is true? Because I don't think I've ever asked you. All right, can we do that?

John Dehlin [00:23:24] Who do you want to go first?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:23:25] Dad, you go first. What would you say? Well, I do want to understand the biggest reason for why you think that this is true, but there's an important, there's an elephant in the room here. Is that you revealing these reasons and allowing me to question you could actually, and it might be hard to envision this, but it might actually begin the process of starting to question and doubt and that type of thing. I understand that, dad. You know, you kind of think that that's not going to happen, but I want you to be aware that it could possibly happen. What if it happened? Maybe it didn't happen to you, but what if it happened to Mom? What if mom started to question? Is this a conversation that you guys are both willing to have with me?

John Dehlin [00:24:06] I mean, I, I, I, I don't think, I think my testimony is unshakable personally, but Mom, I'm not sure. Do you want to, I mean, do you want to take off, mom, like, do you feel.

Guest 9 [00:24:18] I, I know this church is true with every fiber of my being. And if having this conversation will help us understand each other a little bit better and there, there's some sliver of hope that you can, we can invite the spirit into this conversation and that you, son, will be able to understand the gospel a little bit better, then I'm for it.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:24:38] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:24:39] I mean, what I'm hoping is that our answers will help you. It very well may know, rekindle your faith.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:24:45] It may, that could be an outcome.

John Dehlin [00:24:47] That's what I'm, that's what I'm hoping for. That's why I'm willing to do it.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:24:49] Right. Right. And that is often, like when I've talked with believers, this is often something that is a point of misunderstanding that my hope here in this, with having this conversation with you is that you're not giving me reasons that you think that I'll find convincing to come back to the church. Okay. So I'd ask you guys to, if you, if you could please give me the reason that you find most convincing and that what keeps you in the church and thinking that this is true. Okay. But yes, your reasons might be like really great reasons and it might be something that I want to consider.

John Dehlin [00:25:30] And so for me, it's pretty straightforward. I, you know, I was raised Mormon, but in my teenage years, I kind of strayed and did, I lived in ways that I shouldn't have and I kind of fell off the covenant path and I was going nowhere. My life was going in the gutter and, but I'd been taught about Moroni, 10, 4, about Moroni's promise. And I'd been told, you know, James 1:5, if any of you lack wisdom, let him Ask of God to give it to all men liberally. I've been, you know, Moroni's promise, where if you pray about these things with real intent, you shall know the truth of all things. And so I read the Book of Mormon as I was preparing for my mission, and I knelt down and prayed. And like I was promised, I received an overwhelming witness by the gift of the Holy Ghost that this was the one true church. And so my testimony is rooted in the Book of Mormon, in that experience. And then if I had to kind of add a second thing to it, the Book of Mormon is my rock. It is the cornerstone of my faith. And it's too amazing of a book. There's just no way that Joseph Smith could have invented that, made it up. The Book of Mormon is, is the, it's, it's, it's a, it's a miracle and it's transformed my life. And the Book of Mormon is my rock.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:26:57] Okay?

John Dehlin [00:26:57] So I, I, those are the two things. The spiritual witness that I got, plus the irrefutable veracity of the Book of Mormon.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:06] Okay. Are the two related? So what I'm wondering, dad, is do you find the Book of Mormon more meaningful and powerful because of the earlier event that you had, or was the event that you had right before you went on your mission trip when you had that witness? Did you say it was the witness of the Holy Spirit? When you had that event happen, was that the biggest thing that makes you today think that it's true? Like, was that ness if that didn't happen? Here's what I'm wondering, I guess is if that event didn't happen, would you be less certain that the Book of Mormon was true?

John Dehlin [00:27:39] Yeah. If I hadn't have had that spiritual witness, I don't think we'd be here today. It's the spiritual witness, but the Book of Mormon was kind of the vehicle for the spiritual experience, so they're tied for sure. But it's the spiritual witness that is my evidence.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:53] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:27:54] It's not man, it's not evidence of men. It's divine evidence.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:27:59] Okay. And sorry, mom, if I keep asking dad some questions here, but. So regarding the spiritual witness event, can you tell me a little bit about what happened there? Sorry, me, Anthony here. I don't know much about that.

John Dehlin [00:28:15] No, no, I just prayed. I read the Book of Mormon cover to cover and I prayed. I was kneeling at my bed and I just got this, like this overwhelming feeling that came into my heart. I got chills. I got this emotional overwhelming sensation of a Confirmation that this was God's one true church, that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon was true, and that I should give my life to this. And it was an overwhelming witness.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:28:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:28:47] And I knew that I couldn't deny it and that if I did, I'd be betraying God if I did.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:28:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've talked to many, many of my Mormon friends, will say similar things. That they had this feeling that they were convinced was the Holy Spirit, and that that was an instrumental moment of their life. What I'm wondering, dad, though, is, is how a person like yourself could tell that it really was. Do you have other feelings?

John Dehlin [00:29:19] How that it was what, that it

Anthony Magnabosco [00:29:21] was the Holy Spirit that was there with you that day. Like, we humans have feelings all the time. In fact, I can imagine a human having a feeling that they were engaging with another entity maybe altogether. Could somebody have a feeling that they're attributing to the Holy Spirit? And in reality, it's something completely different.

John Dehlin [00:29:46] I mean, my answer is it's different. Like, I know this. You know, people cry at a movie or a Broadway musical, or like a baby's born and they're feeling emotion. So, I mean, I. I guess I'm introspective enough to realize that lots of humans in and out of Mormonism feel emotion. I would just say the. The Holy Ghost, when it bears witness, it's. It's categorically different from just. Just love and just emotion. It's. It's. You know, there's kind of the gift and power of the Holy Ghost. It's something that comes upon you that's categorically different from just run of the mill, regular human emotion?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:30:28] Okay, one more question before I get back to Mom. How exactly is it different? Like, how. How can you discern the difference between a regular emotion that you might have and one that you would say is the Holy Spirit?

John Dehlin [00:30:43] Hmm. I mean, I. I did watch. I did watch that. That movie once, and I got super emotional and I. And I have to admit, I did kind of ask myself, like, wow, like, this almost feels like the Holy Ghost.

John Dehlin [00:31:00] Like, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:31:01] I guess the way I worked that through was that the Holy Ghost can bear witness of truth wherever it is. Even if it's a movie, the Holy Ghost can still bear witness. I guess I'm kind of rambling here, but, I mean, all I can say is it's different. It's just different.

Guest 9 [00:31:18] Okay, and dad, if I may jump in for a moment, I feel like it's a Different type of spirit. Because in Alma, we are told that if we plant a seed of faith and watch that grow, while I do feel a strong emotion around a baby being born or a beautiful song, it is more of a human experience I'm having where God wants to give me more light and knowledge, and he does that through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I plant the seed of the small amount of truth that I've been given from my baptism as a child to know that this is good. And if I keep planting and fertilizing that soil in that. That small plant, it swells. It swells. And the more that I. I act on that in faith, I see beautiful results in my life. And when I go with that type of spirit, that testifies to me of the things that are true, the covenants that I've made, the commandments that I live, I feel blessed and. And I feel further light and knowledge and spirit in my life every day.

John Dehlin [00:32:22] And, Adam, once more, you served a mission. And I remember the testimony you gave when you returned home from your mission and you bore your testimony. I don't think I've ever felt a more powerful witness than when you yourself came home from your mission and bore your testimony to the congregation that day. So I think you felt what I'm talking about. And so I have to be honest, I'm a little confused, because I think you of all people know what it is I'm feeling because you've made me feel it. When you bore your testimony that day, you had this witness. And I'm worried that somehow you've forgotten how strongly you believed. And I wish you could go back and just remember how you felt that day and throughout your mission, because you were one of the most faithful, stalwart missionaries I've ever seen, son.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:33:18] I remember that. Yeah. I remember having those feelings. And I think now, today, even if I were to encounter those feelings today, even if it happened now or even after we're done talking here, I think I would find myself wondering, is this a feeling that my brain is producing because the situation happens to be conducive to it, or is this really the Holy Spirit that's entering my life? I would be wondering how I could tell the difference between my feeling that it's the case, or maybe wanting to think that it's true and actually being able to tell that it really is happening. And I'm not exactly sure how I would go about doing it. My sense is that going off of a feeling as a confirmation that something Is true might not be the best way to go about doing it. Because I could see a situation where somebody thinks that it is the Holy Spirit confirming something is the case and maybe it's not.

John Dehlin [00:34:21] What else could it be?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:34:24] Well, I experience emotions all the time, very deep, powerful emotions. And I can't imagine. I mean, is that the Holy Spirit? Each and every time. I think we've established that humans do have feelings, very powerful ones, and it's not. And I think we've also talked about how somebody could have a feeling that might confirm a completely different God is real. And of course.

John Dehlin [00:34:47] What do you mean?

John Dehlin [00:34:48] What do you mean?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:34:49] Well, I can envision somebody from a different religion having a feeling, a powerful feeling that maybe some Hindu God is interacting in their life. And they prayed to this God and they got a confirmation with a deep, powerful feeling that this God is real. And now they are raising their kids with this belief and going to temple all the time to pay homage to this God.

John Dehlin [00:35:14] But you understand that Satan has the power to counterfeit or to mimic the Holy Ghost. And so people can be deceived. That's how tricky Satan is. He can deceive people and make them think they're feeling the Holy Ghost. And that's. That's literally the power of Satan deceiving people.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:35:34] See, and as I look at it, I see that you've just introduced the third option here that it could. A feeling could be for myself, it could be from the Holy Spirit, it could be from Satan. If I don't have any way to tell the difference between those three. And maybe there's even other reasons for having these types of feelings. If I can't tell the difference between those three options, why should I settle on one? So that's where I'm at. I would need something a little bit more demonstrable than an internal feeling that's confirming to me that this is true.

Guest 9 [00:36:07] Well, I can tell you my reasons.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:36:09] Yes, please.

Guest 9 [00:36:10] Believing. So in addition to the things that your father love you so much. Honey, those were great reasons. You a strong priesthood holder in the home. The things in addition to those. As you know, the Book of Mormon, the church rises and falls on the validity of the Book of Mormon. And not only do I feel a strong spirit when I read it, testifying of truth. I'm sure you know, the way the Book of Mormon came about, Joseph Smith could not have possibly written a book with that much truth. The. The varying authors, their different writing styles within it. The. There's different archaeological. Archaeological sites that have been dug up that show that Joseph Smith couldn't have possibly known these things that he wrote about in the Book of Mormon. And the more that I. I study those things, while those aren't a replacement for the faith that God asks us to have, those really testify to me that Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Book of Mormon truly is a word of God and worldly tests. And the way that we come about by knowledge, I really think actually works hand in hand with the spiritual knowledge that God asks us to pray and that he does give to us freely when we ask, and he does give it to us.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:37:33] Okay, okay. So it sounds like what you're saying, mom, is that there's an element of faith that you have to think that this is true, and then you also think that you have really good evidence for thinking that it's true. Or the Book of Mormon, I think we're talking about here. There's a lot of evidence to show that the Book of Mormon is true. And then there's a spiritual component as well to thinking that the Book of Mormon is true. Is that what you're saying?

Guest 9 [00:37:58] Yeah, absolutely. I think God wants us to study and ponder out of the best books, but then he also asks us to act in faith. So, yes.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:38:08] Okay. Of those two, which one would you say is the most important to you for thinking that the Book of Mormon is true? Is it the. The idea that you think that you have really good evidence for it, or is it the spiritual backing, the. The faith side of it?

Guest 9 [00:38:24] It's hard to say because, like I said, I think that they go together so well. But if there wasn't a single ounce of evidence for the Book of Mormon or archeology, if everything went in the opposite direction and somebody said, hey, I have evidence that I can prove that it didn't happen, my. My testimony of what's been put on my heart by the Holy Ghost would still stand strong. So I still would believe it because of. Because of my conviction from the Holy Ghost.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:39:00] Even if you discovered that your evidence wasn't good evidence, or if you discovered evidence that showed that it wasn't true, would you still believe it? Is that what you're saying?

Guest 9 [00:39:09] Yeah. I mean, Joseph Smith tells us that his name will be known across the world for good and for evil, and that they will be people in the last days trying to, you know, turn the hearts of men against each other. So there are lots of, you know, ex Mormon podcasters out there who are trying to twist God's knowledge or twist God's evidence that he has given us. And so things can be twisted, and it's really hard to know what's true. But following the Spirit hasn't led me astray so far. So if. If there was an evidence that you could present, I'd be interested to see it. But at the end of the day, my. My. My spiritual conviction would still rise above all.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:39:49] Okay, what I'm curious, Mom. What is the main thing behind that spiritual conviction? What is it exactly that makes you think so much that it's true? What do you mean by spiritual conviction?

Guest 9 [00:40:05] What does that mean exactly by spiritual conviction? It is an overwhelming belief that this is the path that God wants me to put myself on. From the time I was about 16 years old, I. Not only that I read the Book of Mormon when I really wanted to know for myself, but I also fasted as I'm asked to do. And I fasted for about three days without any food. And I knelt beside my bed and I prayed every single night, waiting for some type of. Some type of answer if the Book of Mormon was true and if I should go to BYU and if I should go in with a certain group of Mormon friends or non Mormon friends. And it wasn't until I was sitting in church in a pew and I heard my favorite song, I Stand all Amazed. And this. This beautiful rendition and this. The Spirit hit me and it overwhelmed me and I started crying. And every fiber of my being, my body just started to shake. It started to tremble. It just felt like a jolt of lightning that I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that this church was true and that I should go to byu. And that's where I met your father. And since that moment, I realized that this is Christ's one true church.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:41:36] Yeah. Okay, good. So it sounds like what I'm hearing from you, mom, is very similar to what I heard from dad. That there was a powerful event that happened early on in your life that seemed to confirm to you that this was true. A very strong, powerful emotion in your case. And then your encounter, you reporting that you had an encounter with the Holy Spirit that confirmed that these things, how

John Dehlin [00:41:58] the Holy Ghost works.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:42:03] I'll turn it back to myself, if you guys don't mind. When I listen to those reasons, I can understand why you would think that they're good reasons. And I'm hopeful that maybe you understand

John Dehlin [00:42:15] they used to be good enough for you.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:42:16] They used to be. They did used to be, yes. But they're not anymore. So I need something a little bit better than a testimony that somebody had an Encounter with the Holy Spirit because they had a feeling that it's the case I need something.

John Dehlin [00:42:31] Why isn't that enough? Why are you asking for more than that?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:42:39] It's important for me to be able to back up my beliefs to my own satisfaction. So remember early on I was saying, like, this isn't a decision I came to. This was just. It just sort of happened. I seem to be the type of person that needs more than a feeling to confirm to me something very important, something that will shape how I interact with the world and find a spouse and those types of things.

John Dehlin [00:43:06] But it used to be enough. So it sounds like something has changed because you used to be that type of person where the feeling was enough.

Guest 9 [00:43:13] He's probably been listening to podcasts and then it's.

John Dehlin [00:43:17] That's what I'm worried about.

Guest 9 [00:43:17] It's going off of the worldly knowledge of men and not trusting in the convictions that have already guided you up to this point that helped you to serve your mission, to bring other people into the faith. So I am curious, what, what, in addition to that change that you needed more?

John Dehlin [00:43:36] Well, what changed?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:43:37] What changed? Well, I think that those, those shows did have an influence on me. I don't. I think that that would be probably in. You know, I wouldn't be honest with you if I was saying that it wasn't these, these shows, these discussions, listening to them helped me think about things in a way that I hadn't before. I can understand why you may be thinking that that was a problematic thing because it's pulled me away from the faith. But as I see it, it's been a really useful thing. I think it's helping me become a more responsible human being. I think it's helping me better align my beliefs to the evidence that's around to support it. And I can understand how that would be a threat. If I was religious and I had kids and suddenly they stopped believing what I was teaching them to believe and I believed myself. I think I'd be really threatened by it, but I'd want to understand what changed their mind. And I'm glad that you're asking me about this stuff because it's actually helping me think about it too. I don't know if I've really taken a lot of time to think about what exactly did I listen to or encounter. It's been a long, gradual process. This isn't a knee jerk reaction to something. This has been a long, thought out, careful process because I understand how important this is to you, but it's Also important to me, to lead an honest life. I want you to see me and love me for the person that I am.

Guest 9 [00:45:18] Well, we will love you no matter what. But I can't say that we are not disappointed

John Dehlin [00:45:27] because you can love the sinner. But, I mean, you know, like, we're just worried about you. And so, yeah, we love you.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:45:37] Yeah. And it hurts me to hear that you're worried about me. And one piece of advice that I might have is if you wouldn't, if you're capable, if you want to do this, I suppose, or if your religion allows this, is try not to put the responsibility of convincing me on yourselves. Put it on God. Ask God to intervene, or provide me with the evidence that I think that I'll find convincing. Because at the moment, everything that's been presented to me, the Book of Mormon, this idea of needing to feel the Holy Spirit, these are not sufficient enough for me to find the claims that surround that convincing. So if you want to, like, I think it would be great.

John Dehlin [00:46:24] We pray for you every day.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:46:26] Good.

John Dehlin [00:46:26] We put your name in at the temple. Our knees are worn thin, fasting and praying for you to restore your faith.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:46:36] Oh. See, I feel bad that you're. You're. It makes me feel bad that you're spending so much time, so much of your own time on this. It tells me that this is really important to you, that you really think that it's true. My wish is that you wouldn't be troubled by my decision. And I'm hopeful that maybe you can get to that point where you're not. And I hope to demonstrate that this belief is the best belief for me at this time through my actions and how I carry myself and how I interact with life. And you've done a great job raising me, too. But my hope would be that you don't traumatize yourself trying to bring me back to the church and spending so much time doing it. If there was a way, could you just make one prayer to your God and say, if you can change it, go ahead and do it, and then stop doing it?

John Dehlin [00:47:34] So you not only lost your faith in the Church, you've lost your faith in Heavenly Father. Surely you still believe in our Savior.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:47:45] Oh, I thought that was clear. No, I don't think that there are any gods at this point.

John Dehlin [00:47:51] You're going to make your mother cry. Are you okay?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:47:54] Oh, no.

Guest 9 [00:47:54] Well, how do you know that this is not true and that you are living a superior way?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:48:02] Oh. Oh. Well, to be clear, I don't think that there Are no gods. Let me be more clear about this. I'm not saying that there are no gods. I'm simply saying that I don't think that it's the case at the moment. Okay? It's not a hard closed. No. I'm not saying there are no gods. There very well could be a God. There very well could be a heavenly Father.

John Dehlin [00:48:29] This is literally the worst thing you could have ever said to me and your mother. I feel bad that your mother is even here to hear those words. Son,

Anthony Magnabosco [00:48:40] I'm really sorry that you feel that way. All I can say is that I do love you. And I know that you love me. And I know that it would probably make you very happy for me to come back to the church and to start believing these things again. However, it's important to me to lead an authentic life. And I can't pretend. I don't think you'd want me to pretend that it's true. I would think that you'd want me to believe it for good reasons. And I think what this is coming down to is that you think you have really good reasons. And when I look at your reasons for thinking that it's true, I don't find them as very good reasons. That's all that's happening here. I'm not angry with you. I'm not angry with God or anything like that. I don't. It's not that I want to sin or lead a problematic life or anything at all like that. I think it just comes down to the quality of the reasons that you're giving that have been given to me for thinking that it's true. And I just don't find them sufficient. And I'm sorry that it hurts you. I don't want to hurt you.

John Dehlin [00:49:46] I mean, son, I just have to say that whether it's the garments or the coffee maker, sometimes we justify what we do. And it's hard to be an active and faithful Latter Day Saint. It's hard. And it's much easier to fall to the sins of the world, to want to drink, to want to, you know, drink coffee, to. To, you know, pornography. You know, it's I. Adultery. Like, I'm worried that what's really going on is that. Is that you, Your behavior, you're finding living up to the Gospel standards to be very hard and that this is honestly just a justification for.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:50:33] For.

John Dehlin [00:50:33] For sin. For I'm. I'm really worried about that because that's usually. Usually people say they've lost their faith, but really they've Fallen.

Guest 9 [00:50:45] I've heard your testimony before. It's brought me to tears. And I have a hard time believing that there's any good reason to leave this one true church. So I think that God has given us the evidence that it is true. He's given it here and up here. And I think if you would open your heart and forsake your sins, I think you would know that for yourself, too.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:51:09] Okay, well, it's just so we're clear, like, I'm open to believing it again. And my motivation for not believing it has nothing to do with behaviors that I've always secretly wanted to do or something at all like that. That's not it at all. I'm stuck on the core proposition, the core claim that there's this God and this religion is true. That's really where it all starts for me. So even though the religion talks about the optimal way to live your life, and these are really great ideas, I am of the sense that I can still be a good, decent, loving person who is good to their fellow man without a God belief, without this specific belief, too. And what I would ask, though, is that maybe you can just watch and see how I interact over the next couple years. How am I any different than the son that you know and love? I think you're going to find. Well, that's up to you. I would ask you to do that, like, watch and see how I behave.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] I'm going to guess that you're going to start drinking. You've already stopped wearing your garments. And I mean, I think you've already started down that path, son.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:52:31] Well, there's going to be some changes. I might start drinking alcohol, that type of thing. I don't see why that's an issue. And keep in mind that if I understand right, you think that that's a problem because you've concluded that this is true. I don't think that it's a problem. And I. I'm having difficulty concluding that it's true. Does that make sense? Your stance on those things, I think is predicated on you first thinking that this is all true. Now, that being said, I'd be really surprised if I started going out and robbing banks and getting drunk every night and that type of thing. That's just not the type of person that I am. And I don't even want to do that, whether I was a believer or not. So that would be my wish, is that you respect my decision, or if it even is a decision, but respect where I'm at at the moment. On this belief, I certainly respect where you are with it. I understand that this belief is really important to you and you think that it's true, and I simply am not there. It would be great if you can afford me the same type of understanding with regards to my position. I really hope it doesn't damage our relationship.

Guest 9 [00:53:51] Well, doesn't. The things that I said about Joseph Smith. How could he possibly have known these things about the Book of Mormon?

John Dehlin [00:53:57] Exactly.

Guest 9 [00:53:58] That he wrote the word of wisdom in a time when people didn't know the effects of alcohol on the liver and they didn't know about tobacco causing different types of cancers. Doesn't that testify to you that Joseph Smith truly was a prophet and that these things are true and that everything that goes along with it.

John Dehlin [00:54:16] Yeah, Mom. And in addition, like, how if Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [00:54:21] If.

John Dehlin [00:54:22] If the Book of Mormon wasn't translated by the gift and power of God, you tell me how Joseph Smith produced the Book of Mormon in 90 days. How did you.

John Dehlin [00:54:31] Tell me right now, how did Joseph

John Dehlin [00:54:33] Smith produce that miraculous, inspiring book in 90 days? Tell me right now.

John Dehlin [00:54:37] Tell. Tell me and your mother how Joseph

John Dehlin [00:54:40] Smith created that book.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:54:42] Okay, well, if I remember right, this wasn't the main reason why you think that this is true. I'm actually. Maybe it is.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] Maybe praying about the Book of Mormon.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:54:52] Maybe it is.

John Dehlin [00:54:53] For mom, the Book of Mormon was key. Tell me how the Book of Mormon was created, son. How?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:55:00] I can only go off of what I'm being told, and I have to evaluate what I'm being told to see if it makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:55:06] What?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:55:07] When I look at how that book was constructed and the conclusions that are in that book, some of it makes sense. All right, maybe let's say everything in the book is accurate with regards to how humans interact with cigarettes or tobacco or alcohol or that type of stuff. There's probably some truths in there that make sense and that are actually true in reality, but I can't use that and leap to say, well, everything in the book is true. Do you understand what I'm saying? So while it might be great advice to not drink in excess or something along those lines, that that actually might be true in reality doesn't, in my mind, mean that all the rest of the stuff in the book is true. I try to discern. I see these as not just. I see the Book of Mormon as a multitude of claims where there are some things in there that are likely to be true and some things that are likely to be not true. And when I look at the important claims, I Can't look at the simpler claims or the basic claims that might be true and make that leap to say, oh, everything else must be true. So that's where I'm at with that.

John Dehlin [00:56:24] I'm talking about it coming from God, that. That an angel delivered plates to Joseph Smith and it was translated by the gift and power of God into what it is today. That's, you know, that's. I'm asking you about that.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:56:39] Yeah, I understand that the book says that. I just. I don't find the story convincing. I have to tell you, when I read that book and those stories, they come across to me as. As a narrative or like fiction, something that I might read that is made up, that's an imagination or entertainment. They don't seem to comport with reality. We don't encounter lots of angels today. That's what happens. When I read the Book of Mormon, I don't find many of the stories that are in there convincing.

Guest 9 [00:57:19] Well, you're just. You're negating faith. That God asks us at some point that, yeah, there's some things that I don't understand. I'm always asking questions. A lot of things don't make sense. But that's why God asks us to have faith, and it's called a leap of faith. Why can't you make a leap of faith?

Anthony Magnabosco [00:57:37] Okay, well, that's a good question. And I've been thinking about that a lot. A lot. And for myself, if I realize that I have to make a leap of faith. Well, how are you defining that, Ma? First, maybe. What do you mean by a leap of faith?

Guest 9 [00:57:56] As we know in the Book of Mormon, faith is things that are hoped for and not seen.

Anthony Magnabosco [00:58:01] Yeah, that was my definition, too. So when I think about faith and making a leap or a hope that something is true, and then looking back after I've made that leap and being content with my conclusion, I just. I can't be. Because I've noticed that other people can also make leaps of faith and arrive at conclusions that I think the three of us would agree are not true. So I see a liability with faith. I think faith is problematic. And I know that we've been taught that faith is a really good thing to have and maybe even a necessary thing to have in order to be sure that the Book of Mormon is true and that the Holy Spirit is real and that there's a God. But I can't get over the idea that I could take it on faith that something false is true and think that it's true, because I'VE taken it on faith that it's the case. And that worries me. That worries me that I could take something on faith and think something false was true. I want to be able to have a better way of confirming the beliefs that I'm holding. And I think faith can be a real problem in that way.

Guest 9 [00:59:24] I hate to say this, son, but the war in heaven is a story that you've grown up with since you were a child. And if you can remember back to the foundations of our church, doctrine is that Jesus had one plan for sending all of the spirit children of Heavenly Father down to earth, and Lucifer had his other plan. And Lucifer wanted to negate the implementation of and the necessity of faith because he wanted to make the path so that everyone returned back to heaven. And that's part of our Heavenly Father's plan. Not everyone will be able to have the strength and the fortitude to have the faith that it takes to return to their Heavenly Father. And that's just unfortunate about the system. But the alternative, to give everyone the evidence that's sufficient, that is Lucifer's plan. And I stand convicted today that I have faith that Heavenly Father's plan is true. And if you would just have a broken heart and a contrite spirit, you'd be able to make that leap of faith. Although it's not going to be up to your worldly standards, it's not the scientific method, because God's ways are higher than our ways. Because what you're asking us to do is go down Lucifer's path. And I won't let. I won't. I won't do that. Right.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:00:48] Right. Yeah. I think, as I understand it, you think faith is a really good, reliable path to the truth.

John Dehlin [01:00:56] It's the best.

Guest 9 [01:00:57] It's the best that we have.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:00] Could I take it on faith that there's no God? Could I arrive at the conclusion that there's no God and take it on faith that it's the case?

Guest 9 [01:01:10] I think every atheist basically operates off of faith in that way.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] Atheism is as much of a religious position as religion. You just have faith that God isn't there. But that's just as much a religious position as a religious person believing.

Guest 9 [01:01:25] I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:28] So if I took it on faith that there was no God, I could be 100% sure that that's the case. So at the very least, would you agree that faith can lead people to think things that are true when in reality they aren't true?

John Dehlin [01:01:45] I mean, there's this when the radical Muslims flew those planes into the Twin Towers? I don't. I think they were deceived.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:01:53] Right. Could those people have taken it on faith that their God was real?

John Dehlin [01:01:59] Yeah, but they were deceived.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:02:01] Right. Okay. Do you have any more questions for me, mom and Dad?

Debrief, Resources, and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [01:02:17] So pause. Yeah, I think it would be super fun to have you do just. Just to do a quick little exercise in traditional street epistemology.

John Dehlin [01:02:25] Let's just say pretty much no Mormon

John Dehlin [01:02:28] parents ever are going to like, acquiesce to kind of the traditional line of thinking of street epistemology. Yeah, they're just going to put up. I mean, they're just going to put up the shield and not want to go there.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:02:38] Right.

John Dehlin [01:02:39] I want to just role play this kind of probably very rare scenario where we're like that person on the street where we're actually willing to engage in the Socratic method where you actually kind of try and drill down and I won't. We won't be as oppositional. We'll actually be amenable. Unless you feel like we've already done that.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:03:00] Actually, I feel like I was using se types of questions while I was explaining my position.

John Dehlin [01:03:06] Oh, yeah, for sure you were.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:03:08] But it was really interesting. Of course, it's two on one. But what was really interesting was how resistant both of you were.

John Dehlin [01:03:19] And I honestly think we were being a little bit kind. Like, I think most.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:03:23] There's probably a lot more emotion into it.

John Dehlin [01:03:25] Most Mormon parents, you wouldn't have gotten 10 minutes in and it probably would have exploded in. I mean, just when you said you didn't believe in God of Jesus anymore, Mormon mom would have been out the door sobbing.

Guest 9 [01:03:38] I've had, literally had this se conversation and all I had to do is just like go back and retreat into my memory. And a lot of it, my mom just goes like, like she has like this demeanor of. Just like exhausted of like, why are you asking me these things? It's like, it's so obviously true. Like, why are we wasting our time?

John Dehlin [01:03:54] The dad might have gotten really.

John Dehlin [01:03:56] Or might.

John Dehlin [01:03:56] Mom would have gotten really angry, would have got really upset, really difficult.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:04:00] Upset your mom?

John Dehlin [01:04:01] What?

Guest 9 [01:04:02] You upset your mom.

John Dehlin [01:04:03] Yeah, yeah. Made you feel awful and say, I'm not going to sit here and have this conversation while you're planting. And they wouldn't have let, they wouldn't have let the conversation get 10 minutes in. Honestly, that's, you know, if they were willing to have the conversation at all.

John Dehlin [01:04:17] To be honest, the most common scenario

John Dehlin [01:04:20] within Mormonism Is the parents never will

John Dehlin [01:04:22] talk about it, never want to talk about it, never do talk about it.

John Dehlin [01:04:27] They act like it never happened, but they just slowly start to pull away and distance. They don't.

John Dehlin [01:04:33] We don't do Mormonism doesn't as often do hard shunning.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:04:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:38] Like Scientologists and Jehovah's Witnesses.

John Dehlin [01:04:40] But there's this idea of soft shunning.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:04:42] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:04:43] Where it's just starting to put up walls, starting to create a distance. But never. But never have this conversation.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:04:51] Yeah.

Guest 9 [01:04:52] Oh.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:04:52] So these conversations are not even really playing out for people.

Guest 9 [01:04:55] I think I, I think in a good situation, they, they would be. Well, what's going through my head is if you were just watching this listener to Mormon stories and you thought to yourself, I have lost my faith and I need to figure out a roadmap of a higher, better way of talking to my parents. And maybe one day you want to, you know, save this conversation and send it to your parents one day to say, Anthony's reasons are my reasons. I, it's too emotional for me to have this conversation.

John Dehlin [01:05:25] That might be legitimate that like it's

Guest 9 [01:05:28] too difficult to have this conversation. But this is a good YouTube video or a podcast episode that represents how I feel that the conclusions that you've come to about the church are just not good enough reasons for me to believe in it. And if you sound like your reasons are similar to Anthony's, I think people would want to send this to avoid that conversation or maybe a good prepper

John Dehlin [01:05:47] for a conversation because it would avoid the emotional load.

Guest 9 [01:05:49] Emotional load.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:05:51] And then you can talk about the, the silly things that maybe each of us said or the good things that each of us said. They could, they can have our appearance. They could be talking about the conversation that they listen to while they're also maybe talking about their own views a little bit here and there.

Guest 9 [01:06:04] Right. A conversation starter.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:06:05] Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] Yeah. But to be honest, and I don't want you to get discouraged by this three minutes into this conversation, I'm like, for most of our listeners, this conversation will never take place. And I, I'm not.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:06:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:19] I think it would be core going

John Dehlin [01:06:21] forward as the church confronts modernity and starts to, as it started to do in the past five years, say we

John Dehlin [01:06:30] gotta love our non believing brothers and

John Dehlin [01:06:32] sisters, we gotta support them more, ask them questions. I think this is going to become more and more relevant going forward. But if you were to ask, kind of going backward, what percentage of Mormon parents would have allowed this conversation to get even 10 minutes in, I would say less than 5%. Now, do you agree or not agree that most orthodox Mormon parents would have allowed this conversation to get very far?

Guest 9 [01:07:01] Kara, I am a little more optimistic than you.

John Dehlin [01:07:03] Okay, good, good.

John Dehlin [01:07:04] Disagree with me.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:07:05] What was the problem with it though? Like why would there be resistance to have to talking about it?

Guest 9 [01:07:09] It's so emotionally fraught really. It's the emotions. Even if there's time and their space and they know you've lost your faith, a religion just to people is so personal and to see somebody that you raised your entire life and you baptized and the covenants that mean so much to you don't mean anything to them anymore. It's so hard to even talk about religion when you're on opposite sides. So I think from the get go, like John's like, oh, this might be a little bit of a non starter but I'm more, I think with Mormon stories and we are normalizing, mixed faith marriages are just, they're a thing that have to happen now and like mixed faith families that more and more people are losing their faith. And so I'm a little more optimistic that these conversations now or maybe five years from now are just going to be a lot more normalized.

John Dehlin [01:07:51] Well, don't, yeah, and don't misunderstand me. I think your performance and your methodology and approach was beautiful and brilliant and is going to help a lot of people. So I'm super happy at the listeners and viewers who spent time watching this because at a minimum you modeled really effective emotion regulation, respectful discourse, diplomatic, thoughtful, sensitive, ethical speech and if all, forget

John Dehlin [01:08:24] street se, if all X, you know,

John Dehlin [01:08:27] we talked at lunch like one of the biggest problems is that ex Mormons tend to be jerks, sometimes really mean and they become the monster that they think they're running from in so many instances. And so the fact that hopefully tens of thousands of ex Mormons just got to see an example of loving, diplomatic, thoughtful, respectful discourse where you weren't trying to pick our faiths apart, you weren't

John Dehlin [01:08:55] trying to tear us down, you weren't

John Dehlin [01:08:56] Bible bashing, you weren't getting angry and you were still holding your ground, putting up respectful boundaries and even stating your

John Dehlin [01:09:05] truth while still asking respectful questions.

John Dehlin [01:09:08] Huge success. So, you know, putting se aside. But I'm going to just add that

John Dehlin [01:09:16] I am dying for today this, this four part series this weekend to mark the begin of a new era of ex Mormonism where ex Mormons are invited

John Dehlin [01:09:29] to begin practicing street epistemology with their believing spouse, with their parents, with their believing Siblings with their bishops and stake presidents and former mission presidents.

John Dehlin [01:09:45] And that we do kind of a Hegelian dialectical process of trying it, you know, processing what we tried, bringing back

John Dehlin [01:09:56] the feedback loop and seeing if we

John Dehlin [01:09:59] can refine in a. You in a Mormon use case scenario, refine the usage of street epistemology in

John Dehlin [01:10:06] a non believing, believing Mormon context.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:10] And I, I think you've even started talking about maybe having Kara sometimes appear

John Dehlin [01:10:14] on your show and an ongoing conversation

John Dehlin [01:10:20] where we can be feeding input back

John Dehlin [01:10:23] to you, you back to us listeners, to us, us to listeners. And that we can figure out going forward from 2021, from November 2021 going

John Dehlin [01:10:33] forward, how SE can be used to improve Mormon ex Mormon discourse.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:10:41] I would love to see that because that's what happened with SE at the very start. We were using it broad God claims and we started getting other practitioners doing it. A community developed, we started talking about it and creating materials and all sorts of stuff. We've improved at the approach and coming up, like maybe that is the next iteration of SE where you have, I don't want to say the word divisions because it seems like we're now splitting off, but focused on specific areas where there might be a strain maybe of street epistemology that tends to work best with people from the LDS Church, maybe, who knows? The other thing I wanted to say is that that approach would be really great. The more people who are aware of se, the more likely that my mom and dad might run into somebody who can continue that conversation. Like we've just cracked the door on what you can do with SE in this context. Let's say you're at work now and you have a buddy. A new worker shows up and he is an atheist or he's a doubting Mormon or whatever, but he's a wearer of se. He may make more progress with you on your views than I did in that instance because the venue was very challenging. Like emotions are fraught, these are loved. This is a very tense situation that we role played there. And the more people that learn the tool, the more variations we're going to see and the more chances there will be for somebody to encounter somebody who will be using this approach. And that's what's what seems to work best, is continued application of respectful questioning on how we concluded that things are true.

John Dehlin [01:12:26] Yeah, right on.

Guest 9 [01:12:28] I love that.

John Dehlin [01:12:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so listeners and viewers, we want you to try and get up to speed on street epistemology. Those of you who feel called to and want to start practicing It. I'm dying to hear how it works with bishops, honestly, but also with parents and siblings and believing family and friends. And then we want to hear back. And Kara, I've invited you if you're interested or willing to start becoming kind of the Anthony Magnabosco of Utah, where I would pay for equipment to have you go out and be person on the street and start doing street epistemology with like BYU students, you know, people on Temple Square and recording those episodes and then we sharing them as kind of a monthly Mormon stories feature on Mormon stories.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:13:18] That would be awesome. Is that something that you want to do?

Guest 9 [01:13:20] That's the happy chemicals to my brain when I think about it. I've been wanting to do that for a really long time.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:13:24] It helps if you want to do it, you know, because it does take kind of a special person to like actively go out on the street and flag a stranger down so that you can practice the approach and then record it.

John Dehlin [01:13:34] I don't know if Kara could do that. Kara's a little bit shy. She don't get that.

Guest 9 [01:13:39] No, to be honest, a little bit fearful. My parents invited me to something called the Book of Mormon Evidence Conference just a couple weekends ago and it's.

John Dehlin [01:13:46] That would have been perfect.

Guest 9 [01:13:47] It was actually. I did. I told you, I talked to quite a few people that it's a whole. It's like a thing within Mormonism that mainstream Mormonism doesn't. It's a whole other thing. But anyway, the people. I actually did have a lot of conversations. There's another person who's a podcaster who's very set in his beliefs about what's true about Mormon history, even mainstream things that the church now admits about, like Joseph Smith translating it with a rock and a hat. The people at this conference, they don't believe those things. They have this. So I wanted to. To talk to people and people are like, oh, I know who you are. You know, you work for John de Lynn. Get the heck out of here. And I was like, I swear I'm just here to ask questions. I did. I recorded something else that I put on TikTok, but I didn't record my conversation with people, but I had hour long conversations with a light like S E approach of just asking questions and just trying to understand people's perspectives better. And it really put down a lot of shields and a lot of people's walls when they saw that I was actually interested. So my only caveat or like only reservation about that is that if people know what I do for Mormon stories, they know that I, if they, they are like, oh, you're not actually interested, but I am actually interested.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:14:56] Yeah. That actually started happening to me near that, near the end of when I was going out and because people started noticing that I was uploading content and I actually even had people who were. This was getting a little scary, but people were starting to see me on social media announcing that I was going out to do it and then they would show up to have conversations with me. So that was a little unexpected. So sometimes you can gain a reputation for yourself and I've even had people try to interrupt my ability to do it because they were threatened by the approach. So you're in for a real treat if you really, if you commit yourself to it. And I'd be happy to coach, give you any, any advice that you need. If you're going to do that and you know, put that much effort into it, then I'll be happy to tutor you to do it. It sounds like you already know what you're doing and there's so many resources, we didn't even talk about the resources.

John Dehlin [01:15:51] If somebody wants to learn se, how do they learn it?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:15:54] Now there's a couple of different ways. Ask yourself first what your best way of learning is. Do you want to read a book and learn it? You can read a manual for creating atheists, which has been outdated by the newest book, how to have Impossible Conversations,

John Dehlin [01:16:08] but I have to add those to the show notes.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:16:09] Even those two books, I would say, aren't even the latest and greatest. What we're working on with the self directed course. Listen, over the last year I've been working on this course and I've learned more about street epistemology and the best way to explain it and practice it. In the last year than a thousand more conversations could have brought me to. So the course is going to be instrumental and you're really giving people the best tools to learn how to do it and all the caveats that come with it. But that won't be available.

John Dehlin [01:16:39] But it's not out yet.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:16:40] It's not out yet. But in the meantime, the next best thing that I think you can do is immerse yourself in a couple of the SE communities that are out there. The Reddit has almost 20,000 people. There's a Discord server. Basically that link tree link for street epistemology has links to all this stuff.

John Dehlin [01:16:57] Okay, so there's a.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:16:58] Just put a note.

John Dehlin [01:16:59] There's a Discord server. There's a Facebook group.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:17:01] Facebook group or on Twitter.

John Dehlin [01:17:02] But don't you have like some videos

John Dehlin [01:17:05] on Anthony Magnavasco's YouTube channel?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:17:08] A lot of people will learn SE from watching examples of people do it. That might be one of the best ways to learn.

John Dehlin [01:17:13] So just watch some of your videos.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:17:14] If you watch three or four, four videos, not just mine. There are people from around the world who are uploading examples of them doing street epistemology on a variety of different claims in a variety of different styles. Like I go out with a whiteboard and I flag somebody down and we do it. There are other people that set up tables and then there are other people who will just have a conversation and then they'll share their conversation in these groups and let you know what happened and some of the challenges that they faced. So there's a ton of resources out there these days to learn it and really get good at it. And the last thing about this is that if you do find yourself using street epistemology is to try to circle back to the community and share what you've learned. Like we're reaching out to a very specific demographic in the United States or maybe worldwide that are of the LDS church or ex Mormons. You may have some insights into SE that you are picking up on that we aren't. So it's really important that there's a loop back from the practitioners back to the community so that we can keep developing this further. The thing that's made SE great is the constant feedback that we get from the practitioners and even the critics. You know, I don't like SE because of this. Well, that's a good point. We really should make sure that we have informed consent at the start. We weren't obtaining informed consent at the start. So this has been an evolution and I don't see it, I don't see that evolution stopping anytime soon. And I'd love to see you get into it.

Guest 9 [01:18:42] Yeah, anything that encourages less dogma and just like more free flowing conversations from people of differing beliefs. And I, I get stuck in this problem that I am a comedian first and foremost. My TikToks are very satirical and I can, I know that I can come across a certain way, but that's when I'm trying to be a comedian and trying to like make people next we're in my community, laugh and that's a different, you know, version of myself. But I'm not just a comedian. I also really like having good conversations with people.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:19:13] Yeah. My advice for anyone starting, you know, interested in getting into SE would be to try to be Yourself as much as possible. It's okay to mimic maybe what you've seen on a video or follow a rote set of steps, but ultimately, you want to get to the point where you're developing your own style. You're still hitting the key points, points of the things that we do in street epistemology, but you're being your true, authentic self. Don't be fake. Be yourself and ask the questions and move at the speed that they're comfortable with, and you'll be awesome at it.

Guest 9 [01:19:43] Yeah. And I like what you said about, you know, going back to the community and sharing what you've learned. And as many people who are carrying on conversations with different people as possible, you'll be able to kind of get a look at different styles, all while fitting within a certain framework.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:19:58] Yeah.

Guest 9 [01:19:58] And, you know, maybe the way that Anthony does it speaks good to me, but maybe not somebody else. They need to see a different example.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:04] Oh, for sure.

Guest 9 [01:20:05] I'm sure.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:05] Absolutely. There are people that hate my style, but they love this other person who's uploading videos. Fine. Like, find a style that you resonate with and then try to build off of it.

Guest 9 [01:20:15] Yeah. And especially if I'm. I've been wanting you to just set up a table. I want to, like, give you, like, a Airbnb to live out of.

John Dehlin [01:20:22] Totally.

Guest 9 [01:20:22] If you didn't have kids at home that you. And a wife that you. I was like, I just want Anthony to just to, like, live here for a month and just do SE all over Utah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:29] You likely have people in this very city that know what SE is, and they're good at it, and they're just looking for an opportunity. Like, you could start a club or something. Or just every Sunday, I'm out at this place doing SE and somebody read Nice Wonder out of cords of.

John Dehlin [01:20:44] You know, I had a woman who lives, like, in. In Mill Creek reach out to me and say, I want to meet Anthony. I do SE all the time. And I'm trying to refine it.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:51] They're there.

John Dehlin [01:20:52] She. She bought our. She bought our. Our bookshelves. She came and just volunteered.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:20:58] Oh, nice.

John Dehlin [01:20:59] Because she. She really wanted to meet. You know, now I'm feeling bad that I will.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:21:02] She'll be at the conference.

John Dehlin [01:21:03] I hope so. But. Okay, I'll. I'll try and remind me to circle back with her.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:21:06] We are going to table at the conference because.

John Dehlin [01:21:08] Yeah, so. So, yeah, we.

John Dehlin [01:21:10] Yeah. But this will air after. So.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:21:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:13] If you are really into street epistemology and. Or if you really want to Be.

John Dehlin [01:21:18] Please reach out. And if Karen, I are kind of poisoned wells as.

John Dehlin [01:21:22] As. As public personalities at this point, we can have an army of street epistemologists within Mormonism in Utah. And you guys can go out. We'll give you the equipment to go out and. And employ street epistemology, and then we'll show your videos on Mormon Stories podcast.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:21:40] Oh, my gosh. See, you guys are. This is really cool, because one of the biggest impediments, I think, to somebody actually doing street. Street epistemology is all the work that needs to happen and behind the scenes and getting the equipment and then broadcasting it out, because it could be really discouraging when you.

John Dehlin [01:21:55] You.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:21:55] You go out and record five talks and you upload them and you get 10 views.

John Dehlin [01:21:59] Yeah. That's why we.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:22:00] You have the reach you have. You have an engine here where you can really. You could amplify their. Their examples.

John Dehlin [01:22:05] All right, so that's our call.

John Dehlin [01:22:07] What's that?

Guest 9 [01:22:08] This is just the beginning.

John Dehlin [01:22:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:09] So that's our call to listeners and

John Dehlin [01:22:10] viewers if some of you want to

John Dehlin [01:22:13] be on Mormon Stories, become a street

John Dehlin [01:22:14] epistemology expert, record some great conversations, and we'll put your stuff on Mormon Stories podcast really quickly. Kara wants to do a quick final exercise.

John Dehlin [01:22:24] We kind of need to run, but I just want to follow up with how we started. We have a goal.

John Dehlin [01:22:30] We established a goal yesterday with Anthony

John Dehlin [01:22:33] Magna Bosco of helping him raise $40,000

John Dehlin [01:22:37] so that he can accelerate the completion of his SE course and then begin by next year, 12 months from today, begin authoring the street epistemology book that he was born to write. And so we need your help. So Anthony, by the time you hear this message, Anthony will have a donation button on street epistemology.com and it'll be in the show notes of this episode.

John Dehlin [01:23:10] And we want to ask you as

John Dehlin [01:23:12] listeners and viewers, if you love street epistemology, if you want to see Anthony succeed and you want to see the

John Dehlin [01:23:18] gospel truth of street epistemology spread throughout the world and dot the globe like the Book of Mormon and Mormon temples

John Dehlin [01:23:24] everywhere, then you need to donate to the Street Epistemology International foundation and let's get him 40 grand. Like, surely we can get him 40 grand, and then we'll have him back on Mormon Stories podcast to both deliver the training and announce the beginning of his new book.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:23:46] That sounds great.

John Dehlin [01:23:47] Does that sound all right?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:23:48] Let's do that. Let's go for it. We've already started the process of getting the. The. The donation button set up and all that other stuff. So.

John Dehlin [01:23:53] Wow, you're a fast mover.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:23:54] Hey, try to carry you.

John Dehlin [01:23:56] You go with that?

Guest 9 [01:23:57] Oh, yeah. Excited.

John Dehlin [01:23:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:23:59] So that is the main part of our four part series on street epistemology.

John Dehlin [01:24:04] We hope you've enjoyed it.

John Dehlin [01:24:06] More to come.

John Dehlin [01:24:07] So to conclude, here we are. Anthony Magna Bosco, thank you so much for spending so much thoughtful time. Thank you for what you do, thank you for who you are and thank you for spending so much time with us to help bring your wisdom and expertise to the Mormon people. We are just so grateful and we really appreciate it.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:24:31] Thank you. I'm honored to be here. You've been extremely hospitable and you've asked some great questions. Better questions than I think I've ever encountered on a podcast, which is good. I was actually telling a friend last night that this was a really intense interview, but I love it because it's not a softball interview. I'm sick of softball interviews. So this has been really challenging for me. And of course you reach a lot of people who I think could benefit from learning this approach. So it's a win, win all around. And I'm really grateful to have been invited to come out here. I know we've been trying to do it for a while. We finally got to do it and it seems like we're not done working together either in any way, shape or form. And I'm completely fine with that too. I want to make allies in this movement to try to get these tools into the hands of people who need them the most. So I'm grateful to have met you both.

John Dehlin [01:25:25] Yeah, likewise. And I, I told this to Leah Remini and Mike Rinder, I told this to J.T. and Lady C, these beautiful, this beautiful Jehovah's Witness couple that are YouTubers the next. And I tell this to Steve Hassan as well. The next big order of magnitude leap for those of us who are interested in reality based living and rational inquiry and you know, non dogmatic living, is for the superheroes to unite. So instead of it being Spider man and Captain America and Iron man all living in isolation, we need the Avengers to unite. And so working with you, working with Steve Hassan, working with Leah and Mike, working with JT and Lady C, Chris Shelton, Lloyd Evans, we need to find a way to collaborate, to share learning, share expertise, maybe even have an annual conference where or a podcast where we have members of various communities together so that the sum of the parts can be great, you know, so that the whole can become greater than the sum of the parts.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:26:47] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:26:47] I think we'll all be way more effective individually if we collaborate in aggregate.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:26:53] Yes. And there is already an initiative to do something similar. Not with those folks. I haven't heard. Well, Stephen Hassan maybe could be the link. There's a separate initiative where there's a fellow named David McRaney who wrote a book called you'd are not so Smart. He's got a podcast. He wrote a book called How Minds Change, and he outlines different groups of people that have stumbled across this technique, rebuttal approach of street epistemology, variations of it independently. We talked about deep canvassing the other day, I think, and we've got street epistemology. And then there are other. These other approaches that people are noticing and using, but they're all doing their own little thing. So this author wrote this book with the idea of bringing these disparate groups together. And there's no reason why people who have left these hardcore religious institutions and learning from their journey out. I think if we put those two things together, that could be amazing. That could be amazing at moving this forward in a really productive direction because a lot of us are doing similar things. We pulled our resources together.

John Dehlin [01:28:05] And the way I know the way

John Dehlin [01:28:06] you just said is true is that my brother Joel loves you and he loves the you're not so smart guy. And so like. And I think he loves me more or less. So the combination of the three, I think that's. And. And everyone else, I think that's powerful. Yeah, let's do it.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:28:21] Yeah, let's do some sort of strategic summit where we can plan how to really blow this up.

John Dehlin [01:28:27] I love it. Like an off site, Some type of off site summit thing.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:28:32] Yeah. Salt Lake City is looking kind of nice for that, I gotta say. We can. We can all meet up here and do something, or maybe at the very least, we do something on video, but we sit down and do it in person and we share where we're experts in, where's our level of expertise and how we might be able to work together.

John Dehlin [01:28:47] Love it.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:28:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:48] All right, so Anthony Magnavasco, how do people get in contact with you and. Or support you?

Anthony Magnabosco [01:28:55] The easiest way is to just go to linktree and then my last name is Mac Nabasco. Just do a search for that and you'll find links to all my work. Or if you're on Twitter, basically any social media platform that you're on. If you search for my name, you'll find links to my stuff, as well as video examples of se. Or resources. If you're Interested less in me and more about street epistemology, which is my hope, because I don't want this to be a cult of personality. We talked about that a little bit earlier at lunch today, too. I would Recommend going to streetepistemology.com and look at the resources that are there and the link to the communities, and start talking to people who also are tired of having bad talks with the people that are in their life. Find those resources, find the communities, and that's it.

John Dehlin [01:29:45] Beautiful.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:29:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:46] All right. Thanks again, Anthony. You're awesome.

John Dehlin [01:29:48] And, Kara, you make Mormon's story so much better.

Guest 9 [01:29:51] Thanks.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:29:52] Thank you both.

Guest 9 [01:29:53] I try, but this is an amazing couple days. Really good chats.

John Dehlin [01:29:57] Have you pinched yourself?

Guest 9 [01:29:58] I had to. During. When Sean McCraney walked in the door, I was like, this is so epic.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:03] But not when I walked in the door. Huh?

Guest 9 [01:30:05] I did. I was.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:06] I'm just kidding.

Guest 9 [01:30:07] All week long, actually, Anthony, one thing

John Dehlin [01:30:09] you'll think to realize is we all pale in comparison to Bill Real, who you will meet. But. But Kara. That's Kara's one true love other than Aaron. Like, intellectual love, I should say.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:20] Okay.

Guest 9 [01:30:20] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:21] What's his claim?

John Dehlin [01:30:21] He's a Mormon podcaster that you have yet to meet. He's partners with Radio Free Mormon.

Guest 9 [01:30:26] Yeah. Because quite honestly, we get a lot of emails about Mormon stories helping so many people and John Dehlin helping people out of the church and things like that. I didn't listen to John very much. I listened to mostly Bill Real. My husband listened to John. So Bill Real is my John De Lynn. Does that make sense? So I can't wait to finally meet him.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:41] You gravitate to what you're. To what appeals to you, and. Yeah, that's good. I'll got to meet this guy. He'll be at the conference.

John Dehlin [01:30:48] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:49] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:30:50] Yeah.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:30:50] Nice.

John Dehlin [01:30:51] Did I embarrass you sufficiently? Care.

Guest 9 [01:30:53] Yeah. Anytime you bring up roleplay Bill Real, like, all these different topics, John knows how to just, like, poke me with.

John Dehlin [01:31:00] I'm poking the bear poke of the care.

John Dehlin [01:31:04] All right, thanks, everyone. Love you. Be good to each other.

John Dehlin [01:31:08] Be kind to each other. Thanks for your support of Mormon Stories in the Open Stories Foundation. We couldn't do without you. Please support us if you can, but today, please support Anthony and street epistemology.

John Dehlin [01:31:18] Take care. Love you guys.

Anthony Magnabosco [01:31:19] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:31:20] See y' all again soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.