Welcome and Guest Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is August 10, 2024. I'm here with my partner on the podcast, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:11] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:12] And we are so excited today to interview someone I've wanted to interview for at least a couple years, if not more, Allison Shiffler. Hey, Allison.

Allison Shiffler [00:00:21] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] Allison is an amazing human with an amazing Mormon story, and that's why we're interviewing her. She is also one of the, one of my go to therapists that I refer people to. She, she does all sorts of different types of therapy, including couples therapy, individual therapy, etc. But, you know, and she, her stuff can be found at therapy-with-alison.com she practices here in Salt Lake and in Utah. But that's not why we're doing the interview. We're doing the interview because Allison's story, I think, is going to be helpful for a lot of people. And just to give you, like, a quick preview of some of the themes, you know, raised Mormon, mixed faith, parents, and, and how that played into her relationship with her parents. The passing away of a parent grief mission in Russia. These aren't necessarily in order. And also just normal Mormon journey stuff. But it definitely, the main theme today is what happens when the Mormon dream kind of goes off the rails and all the things that you feared could happen might happen, or many of the things, but then like, let's just say divorce or single parenthood or, you know, you know, trying to build a career that you, maybe you weren't prepared to build, whatever those things might be. But then what happens when you build a life where you're so grateful that you've been through all that because it's made you stronger and happier and healthier and you avoided a lot of life choices that you're glad you avoided? Allison? I don't know. Did I summarize that? Okay.

Allison Shiffler [00:02:13] Yeah, I think you summarized it great. That sounded great.

John Dehlin [00:02:16] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [00:02:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] Plus, Allison's a jazz fan, so you

Allison Shiffler [00:02:19] got to know that I am.

John Dehlin [00:02:22] So that's what you're in store for today. And Allison, before we begin, we always like to give people a chance to kind of state their intention of why they want to do the interview. So what do you got?

Setting the Stage for Allison's Story

Allison Shiffler [00:02:33] You know, my intention is, especially with all those things you summarize, like these life events, and especially bringing in the context that we, when we're raised Mormon, we're raised lds, we have a pretty big expectation of things going a certain way. And it can kind of feel like, failure if it doesn't. And so, I mean, I'll be honest, in addition to, hey, I'm taking clients and I'm meeting with couples, and, you know, sometimes knowing not only the clinical background of a therapist, but especially in the state of Utah, understanding that they know this culture, they know specifics about the psychology of what we go through in this church and in our trajectories, what we're healing from. But also, I think there's value both in the therapeutic trajectory and in healing from Mormonism and knowing that it's not the worst thing for things to have not gone the way that you actually wanted them to originally. So to summarize that, again, whether you're raised Mormon or not, it doesn't really matter. That's, I think, an area of wisdom that we all hopefully understand with time, that it didn't all turn out the way I wanted it to, and that's okay. And in my case, it's actually amazing. I mean, this was my biggest fear. And I think predominantly, culturally speaking, patriarchy speaking, it's a. Who wants to end up as a single mom? Like, that's, like, one of the worst things you can be. You can see that statistic on every state website, how many single moms there are, you know, like, what? You know, a group of people to study and understand in terms of the repercussions of how they live their lives. I think single moms are really blamed and villainized. And it's funny, the sequence of events with my Mormon upbringing and all these things, we'll get to how that's where it ended up, and that's where I am now. I have a long life to live, hopefully. But it's funny to me, it's actually kind of funny and sad that that was, like, the worst thing to not have a male partner or to not have a huge family. And life's great. Business is great. Parenthood is great. My life is really, really wonderful, and I'm grateful for it. And it is the total opposite of what I ever expected, and it's the opposite of my patriarchal blessing, and it's the opposite of the guidance I was given. So, you know, that's not. That is absolutely correlated to, you know, the work that I've done and how I'm focusing on healing and doing all those things that are just important for us. But, yeah, I think that's my intention here, that it's not gonna go the way you planned. But don't be sad about that. Don't, like, pause with that for a minute and think about what that means for life to not go the way that you planned.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:32] Yeah. Meaningful. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:35] I'm stoked. All right. Where does your Mormon story begin, Allison?

Family Background and Mom's Conversion

Allison Shiffler [00:05:39] Oh, my goodness. So before I was born, I was actually the first person in my family born into the church because my mom converted in her 30s. And I think for my parents, it was like a serendipitous thing. I'll be honest, there are certain aspects of my mom joining the church that I don't necessarily want to share, as it's part of her story, but it was something that kept my family together for my mom to join the Mormon

John Dehlin [00:06:09] Church, provide stability and structure during a hard time.

Allison Shiffler [00:06:12] Right? Yeah. Specifically within their marriage. I think it was something that really saved their marriage for my mom to join the Mormon Church. Now, my dad never did. It took my mom nine months to join the church. She was really suspicious about Joseph Smith, didn't feel positive about it. She grew up Episcopalian.

John Dehlin [00:06:30] What state was she taking the.

Allison Shiffler [00:06:33] This is in Pennsylvania. Yeah, this is in Pennsylvania. So this is, you know, felt board lessons. You know, missionaries coming to my parents home weekly, helping my mom go to church. You know, my dad actually kind of stepped back. He loved the values, loved the missionaries, but he wasn't really committing to anything. So at the time, sister missionaries, who didn't have a ton of rules would come over in the morning and get my three brothers ready, finding socks, you know, three little kids, helping my mom go to church with her three kids. So the sister missionaries were really, really a key point in helping my mom get the support she needed, going to church, et cetera.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] It's like early 80s.

Allison Shiffler [00:07:15] Yeah, yeah, this was early 80s. And, yeah, so I think they met in the 70s, met the missionaries in the 70s. But, yeah, eventually my mom joined in the 80s, and that's been a really incredible foundation for, you know, my family's community. And especially in a ward with so many converts, you know, everybody kind of finding each other and supporting each other. So I grew up in the church. I kind of have this joke that I was always, like, an underachiever. I remember. I actually remember saying to my mom as a little kid, I don't think I'm going to make it to the celestial kingdom. Like, that sounds like a lot. I don't think I'm going to, like, make it there, but can't you, like, visit me in other kingdoms, Mom? Like, my mom's like, but I'm gonna be in the celestial Kingdom with Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, and I want you to be with me. And I was like, right, but didn't you say you could visit me? Like, can you go? Like, it'll be fine. Like, that was my mentality of like, that sounds like a lot. Like, I don't know about doing all this. I don't know about going to these three hours every Sunday, no snack. Like, this is just a lot. So from a young age, I kind of felt like it was just kind of heavy and arduous. But a really big pain that I felt from the time I was a child is that we weren't. We weren't sealed as a family. As a family.

John Dehlin [00:08:40] Because your dad wasn't a member, right?

Allison Shiffler [00:08:42] My dad wasn't a member.

John Dehlin [00:08:43] So they weren't temple married, right?

Allison Shiffler [00:08:45] They weren't temple married. In addition to the fact that my dad was a chain smoker, he smoked three packs of cigarettes a day, which is 60 cigarettes. I mean, he smoked a lot. So that combined with the anti tobacco campaign in my elementary school, just kind of feeling like, oh, my God, my dad's the reason we're not sealed. Like my. And I mean, I also remember saying that to him as a little kid. Like, you're the reason we're not gonna be together, which it's a pretty horrible thing to hear from your child. But I was just so mad about it. I would hear other little kids in fast and testimony, meaning bare testimony. Like, and I'm so grateful we're sealed. I'm so grateful we're all going to be together. And that's like security you don't have as a kid. In fact, when you get into the details, as you get older, you think to yourself, okay, so if we are all together and maybe dad won't accept it, and maybe mom gets sealed to someone else because, like, gets complicated. It's a really complicated thing to conceptualize as a child and then as a teenager. And then.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] So because if your mom is going to make the celestial kingdom according to Mormon theology, she has to be sealed to a Mormon man.

Allison Shiffler [00:09:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:09:59] Which means she has to leave your dad either in this life or the next.

Allison Shiffler [00:10:03] Right.

John Dehlin [00:10:03] And that's the only way you can be with your mom in the celestial kingdom, which leaves your dad out. But then if she marries somebody else, who's your dad, is it your dad, bio dad, or your stepdad who's in the celestial kingdom?

Allison Shiffler [00:10:15] Right. How is this all gonna work? And is he just staying in, like the purgatory spirit world and we're waiting for him? So in addition to the fear of my Dad's a smoker. I'm afraid of him dying of lung cancer. We're not sealed as a family. Just a lot of what I can now identify as anxiety. Not really knowing this at the time. That, like, pretty anxious kid about the afterlife stuff. I mean, it really. On one hand, I was kind of apathetic, like, I don't want to do all this. I don't want to. I don't think I'll make it to the celestial kingd. And then there was also the coexisting anxiety of we're not sealed, and I don't have any control over that, you know. So the funny thing about that, though, is as a child, that caused, you know, a lot of pain and it was really sad to think about. And not that I'm going to fast forward yet, but eventually in my adult life, I would notice how that was kind of an advantage to smell coffee every morning. Morning of my life and kind of know that my parents could still, you know, respect each other and get along and have different beliefs. Although I think for the most part they had similar beliefs. I think my dad did, for the most part, believe in Mormonism. But. And yeah, on a side note, he saved so much money having these missionaries come to our house every single week for decades. I mean, think of just the yard labor, let alone, I mean, they were there just like, we're going to baptize this guy. We're going to baptize this guy. He was a legend in the stake of everyone trying to baptize my dad. He was also a poultry salesman. And so he was giving the missionaries free chicken, like frozen chicken all the time. So he was a very beloved person in the ward, in the stake. It's a swap of sorts. Yeah. And it was hilarious, though, because the missionaries would, like, come over, spend three hours in the yard doing everything, and then my dad would make them lunch and they'd be like, oh, hey, and we have a lesson. And he's like, oh, I don't have time for that. And so he just, like, contributed in a way of feeding them. But then the missionaries really upkept a lot of things in our home due to them hoping that they could baptize him. So, yeah, I definitely grew up. I mean, I'm a youngest, I'm an only girl. I have three older brothers. And I think there was a little bit of a rebellious part of me. I believed in the church. I bore testimony. I gave talks all the time. I was the teen that a bishopric member would be like, hey, so and so can't speak today. They backed out. Can you give a talk? And I'm like, I got this, like, I just, I loved it. It made me great at public speaking. There are aspects of being raised Mormon that were really beneficial and really, really good. And then there were these areas of guilt and shame that especially crept in. I would say, frankly, in adolescence and young women's where it just started feeling terrible. But I didn't have, you know, the direction or the self determination to know, like, this is bad. Instead I was answering those questions with the bishop. Instead I was feeling that shame. I remember one of the first damaging moments in a bishop's office was, you know, a temple recommend interview. My bishop's asking me, is there anything I need to tell him? You know, honest in your dealings? And I said, yeah, sometimes I lie to my parents about what I'm doing and who I'm hanging out with. And the bishop takes off his glasses and is like, you lie to your parents? And I said, well, what I mean is like, I went to the movies the other day with like two guy friends and I told my dad I was with like two girls. Like, they're just friends. That's like, that's what I mean. And he's like, as if I just told him like the worst thing. I mean, yeah, I'm a teenager and I lie about who I'm hanging out with because my dad is paranoid about his only daughter and what she's doing. And yeah, went to the movies with some guy friends, lied about it. And I just remember feeling like, am I a bad person? Like, is that. And I wish I could have in that moment been like, no, you're normal. You're 15. It's not a big deal. You're lying about not big deal things. You're a pretty tame teenager. You're one of five Mormons in your high school, you know, never really did anything other than heavy petting, making out, like, I mean, the extent of my, of my Mormon dedication in terms of like the choices I was making. I was a pretty low stress kid to my parents.

Growing Up Mormon and Early Church Life

Margi Dehlin [00:15:11] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [00:15:11] And so that bishop's interview, like, I will just never forget that because I feel like it just got worse from there. In terms of those moments of feeling so much shame, you know, I still remember that walking pornography talk. I still remember being in the Stake Center. I still remember that talk. What was the talk?

John Dehlin [00:15:29] What was the talk for those who don't know.

Allison Shiffler [00:15:31] So the talk was about modesty. I believe it was centered toward the youth. It was like A fireside or like youth. Yeah, it was a fireside. And the talk is focusing on personal responsibility regarding modesty. So everything that I'm showing right now is the opposite of that. Right? Like covering your shoulders, not wearing. Right. All these things that are so unbelievably important, but with the specificity of you're kind of responsible for other people's thoughts and actions. So if you're not taking this seriously in obeying God and dressing modestly, then you're walking pornography. You're choosing to be attempting, you're choosing to be vulgar. You know, like that's the message.

John Dehlin [00:16:27] You're intentionally creating bad thoughts in the minds of boys, Mormon boys, making them have sexual thoughts.

Allison Shiffler [00:16:32] Right. And I mean, what an awful thing to say to kids. Like what an awful thing to say. And that's, you know, something that I've realized, especially you know, just going to my career for a minute, is that patriarchy hurts everybody. It hurts everybody. And to just emphasize young men's and young women's for a minute, girls, I mean, I'm not going to young women. They're little girls, they're young girls, you know, growing up to be women. And they're told that they have this responsibility for keeping men worthy, keeping their thoughts clean, that's their responsibility. And so how are you supposed to develop your self esteem, let alone connect with your body when you feel like your body is this weapon that you have to conceal, it's a really messed up way of thinking. And then boys are given this message of you're gross and you have these compulsive awful urges. And, and the only way that that's okay is when you have a woman, which is like pretty objectifying. Instead of talking about her as a person, talking about her as that's when you have sex and it's okay. So we're both screwed, right? Like as groups of people as you know, as boys, as girls, we are taught these self hating thoughts as opposed to what could have been. Like, hey, sexual urges are normal. It's a part of your body developing, you just gotta learn boundaries with it. Like it's fine. And not that church is necessarily a place to talk about healthy masturbation. I acknowledge that. But acknowledging that there should have been more of a discussion regarding safety, in, regarding consent, in regarding things that are not your responsibility as opposed to these things that we interpret psychologically as so much shame and you know, depending on your upbringing, depending on what your home is like, that could do a lot of long term damage. This is where I say I'm, like, actually ironically privileged in coming from a part member family because my underachiever brain was kind of like, well, we're not gonna be sealed anyway. You know, like, at one point it kind of thought to myself, like, yeah, I mean, what is all this for? Like, this is so much work and so many details have to be put in place for this patriarchal blessing to come true or for us to all be together. It just. It kind of seemed impossible to be honest. And so as this led eventually to my faith deconstruction, the whole entire time I believed it, it just felt really awful. You know, just a lot of that shame was so damaging. So, you know, upbringing, going to things like Pioneer Trek, which was awful, and I just remember starving and being so hungry and, you know, the young women's program. I just thought for the most part, like, this just makes me feel like crap. You know, so many of these lessons just make me feel bad. And I still. I still believed it. I still did the thing, and I still. I always wanted to go on a mission. That was something that I thought was pretty cool and kind of strong.

Shame, Guilt, and Being a Part-Member Family

John Dehlin [00:20:00] That was before women were really encouraged to go on missions.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:04] Can I ask you a quick question about the shame and the guilt? This walking pornography idea, how did it land with you? Like, what I'm hearing so far is kind of. So I just did all the things, and I. But could you describe what. What it created in you, the damage? Like, what did it do to you for those years? What is the difference between you receiving all those messages? And even though you were still appearing like you were doing all the things, what happened to you?

Allison Shiffler [00:20:37] You know, I think, like, one of the hardest things about it is it really made me hate my body. And. And that's, you know, I'm a girl mom now. And so it's, like, really hard to think about the fact that that really translated for me into feeling like my body was wrong. As my body's developing, specifically in a way that, you know, my hips are getting bigger and my breasts are getting bigger and all the. Like, what I needed. What I needed was the encouragement of, like, hey, this transition is weird, and it's okay, and just like, keep loving yourself. Like, all these changes are good, but I felt like, oh, my goodness, like, my boobs are getting bigger and that's wrong. Like, I felt like my body developing the way that it was was, like, bad for righteousness. Yes, it was not good. I felt like, you know, especially in circumstances of, you know, making out as a teenager, or as a young adult or something. Like if, if a boy ever touched me, and even if it was totally consensual, I felt like, oh, my God, my body is like this vehicle for sin, you know, which is like an awful thing when that means that you don't like yourself, you don't like your body, you wish your body was different. So, you know, when I was in middle school, I was bulimic. I mean, I was trying to be Kate Moss, I was trying to be thin, I was trying to be skinny. I don't have the genetic makeup to ever look like the women that I wanted to look like growing up. You know, I just thought I needed to be really, really thin. Like, that's the way that on one hand, I can be the most modest. You know, I don't have to like, pull my shirt up and cover my cleavage and just like. So, you know, it's hard enough to be a young girl growing up, growing into her body. You know, you're getting your period, you're just like confused about all these things. But the modesty talk is what really made me feel like my body was wrong. Like I couldn't love it and I couldn't be proud of it. And it took me a while to get there, and I'm really grateful that I got there, but that was, I think, the worst thing about it, that I just really, really, really, really hated my body.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:08] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:23:11] So sorry.

Allison Shiffler [00:23:13] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:23:14] It's so common.

Allison Shiffler [00:23:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:16] I'm glad you asked.

Allison Shiffler [00:23:17] Yeah. Well, and it's a cool thing now, you know, to raise a little girl who. We've got a few rules in our home. One is, well, not rules, but we have no rules about food. You can eat, like snacks whenever you want. You can eat whenever you want. And no rules picking out clothes. So when we go to Target, like, yeah, get the tank top, get those shorts, get, you know, get whatever. And it's really beautiful to see my kid try on clothes and be like, this looks good. As opposed to, you know, the way I was raised, it was like, pull this up, get a bigger size, do that. It was like so meticulous about not being this walking pornography. That was a phrase I heard, you know, once in this fireside talk. But I feel like that just resonated with me always and, you know, especially the reinforcement from leaders of like two piece bathing suits and like tank tops and all these things that I think for those of us who eventually leave Mormonism, we look back and say, these aren't big deals. It's just Clothes, it's just a bathing suit. It's, you know, none of these things are felonies. But you, in order to maintain this orthodoxy, this righteousness and commitment or loyalty, you have to see it as a big deal.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:38] That's right. The intensity, it's very serious and grave, the way it's communicated. Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] And it's partly because the Book of Mormon says that sexual sin is next to murder and severity. I mean, not to be dramatic, but that's probably part of the doctrinal foundation for it. So Mormons are kind of stuck with it unless they're going to change the Book of Mormon.

Allison Shiffler [00:24:57] Right, right, right, exactly. And it's almost like way for us to, you know, whether you're in the church, whether you're out of the church, it doesn't really matter. The way to get to a point of mental health stability is to recognize these areas where you have autonomy and self determination, meaning you feel good about your choices, you feel in touch with your intuition and also like neutrality about certain things. Like it's a bathing suit, it's hot out, we're swimming. It doesn't. It's not. That's all it is.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] It's a stomach, it's shoulders.

Allison Shiffler [00:25:35] Right?

Margi Dehlin [00:25:36] Yeah, that's right. I was going to just follow up and ask you if you felt this tension. Right. Because on one side you're getting messaging around your body being pornography, which I think as you stated, right. It creates this disconnect, distrust for your own body. How about the foil to that? I'm curious, in your young women's experience, ever feeling like appearance though, beauty though was a thing. It was like this idea of for women your offering is beauty. So you have an extra layer of.

Mormon Culture Around Appearance and Marriage

Allison Shiffler [00:26:18] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:18] You're already kind of disconnected from your body experience, from the sexual self side. But also there's this appearance kind of being part of your value as a woman and a certain type of beauty, I think within Mormonism, did you feel that and like how is that piece for you? Cause I think that's a self aggressive, potentially avenue as well. And a further dissociate right. From the. As opposed to how you feel in

Allison Shiffler [00:26:49] your body, that it's all about what your body looks like. I felt that especially when I moved out to Utah in 2005 and I was going to UVSC at the time now UVU and I had some early morning classes and I remember thinking it's 8am and every woman here who's 18, 19, 20, 21 is like full face, makeup, her hair looks like amazing she's wearing real nice clothes. You know, I just remember coming out here being like, I didn't know I was from like an Appalachian trash town. Like, I didn't know that, but. And you know, like, to some degree, there's a lot of normalcy there. But then I came out here and everything is about, as a woman, about how you look and, and how you present. And I think we can say that that's maybe specific to certain geographical regions of the country because that was kind of mind blowing to me that everybody, women specifically, are just trying to look their best with this reverse gender peacocking, like, trying to win over whoever it is will be attracted to them. Because finding your eternal companion, getting married and is like beating the final level of the video game. Like, that's it. Like, that's the most important thing. For a decade of my life, I was in singles awards. And that is such a big message of like, getting married is everything. That's it. Getting married is everything. Temple marriage is everything. Finding the right person is everything. And, you know, getting married is one of the highest stakes decisions you're ever going to make. It's a really important decision and one that can last, you know, lead to a lot of lasting happiness. However, to just make it about the immediacy of that security, like, getting married is when you'll get sealed and it's okay because you're doing these, you know, these temple covenants, et cetera. So that's all connected to it, like attracting your partner and, you know, being, especially as a woman, being righteous, being modest, you know, being beautiful, being pure. And what a missed opportunity to humanize girls and women a little more in talking about choices they can make in their life for their own fulfillment. Because, you know, the verdict is in. It's 2024. And at this point, a lot of us know that getting married to a man is not associated with or correlated with happiness, success, fulfillment and mental health, stability.

John Dehlin [00:29:37] Hey, wait a minute.

Allison Shiffler [00:29:39] By no means, John, am I saying anything about all men whatsoever. But if you think that just getting married is now, you're okay, no, it's not. And as some, you know, just to, you know, speak on a for a minute about something that I experienced, I was married for a very brief period of time while I had, while my daughter was a baby. So. So when I met this person, she was under two years old, she was still a baby. And there's a lot to say about that marriage and about vulnerable aspects of what brought us together. And it eventually ended in divorce. But I Noticed that when I got married, I noticed this collective sigh of relief among a lot of people that this single woman, this single mom, she found a guy, she found a man, she's married now. And, I mean, there's a lot to say about the direction that went in and how there were very unhealthy aspects of this relationship. And it was not a great choice. It was not the right choice. It was not something that mutually we should have done. But again, going back to that idea of, like, being a single woman is the worst thing you can be, or being a single mom is the worst thing. Now, listen, it's hard. It's overwhelming. My to do list is a lot. But, no, it's not the worst thing. And I'm tempted to be a little tacky and tell you how much I make by saying, no, it's really not the worst thing. Life's good, but like a bad marriage,

John Dehlin [00:31:20] way worse than being a single mom, right? Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [00:31:24] Yeah. The crippling anxiety that comes with being in a scenario that is unhealthy for you. I mean, you know, somatically, physically. My hope, you know, especially mental health, is for us to get a lot more in tune with our bodies and understand when our body is trying to tell us something. You know, if I had a nickel for every time I've noticed the difference between my client before and after while they were in an abusive relationship, and when they leave, and after they leave, they're eating more and their hair gets thicker. And like, just, you know, our body tries to give us these answers. But the problem with this, you know, narrative in Mormonism of just get married and you'll be okay. Just get married and you'll be secure. Just get. That's absolutely not fair and not true. You know, I think, especially as a woman, if we are not encouraging women to decide what they want to do, whether it's go to college, whether it's go to trade school or, like, you know, go volunteer overseas, like, figure out what you want to do with your time and with your adulthood. But if you're in the waiting room of someone saving you, as if you're like a helpless damsel, you're not going to be happy and fulfilled by that, first of all. But also, if it doesn't end well, you won't have anything. You won't have a foundation, you won't have a savings, you won't have a backup plan. You won't, you know, like, that. That is really something that I have learned to value over time, which is, you know, the way I need to raise my daughter is like opposite of the messages I was given in Mormonism. You know, like, I talk to her every single day about how much I love my job. And I do, I love my job. Which is great for mom guilt because I feel almost none of it. You know, my biggest parenting approach is what would I say to my kid? Because she's gonna be a kid for the minority of her life. And, you know, what would I say to her if she was feeling mom guilt about going to work or if she's feeling mom guilt about going out to a girls night and getting a sitter? And I'll be like, your kid's gonna be fine. This is good for you. It's good for your kid for their mom to be happy and stable. It's good for your kid for their mom to go pursue her career and figure out what she wants to do. You know, like, it's. It's interesting and I'm grateful, you know, for this plot twist of life where I, where I've become a mom because of all that it's taught me again in this very vicarious way, these things that I'm learning about what my stability looks like. It means that I can't be this martyr for my kid. I'm not just going to, like, sacrifice my happiness so she could be happy. That doesn't work. It just doesn't. And I think within patriarchal teachings and Mormonism, we teach women to be the ultimate sacrificers. Like, sacrifice your happiness, sacrifice your time, sacrifice your mental health, and just give and give and give and give. But that doesn't work either. It doesn't work to be burned out and emotionally unstable. When I was in young women's, I thought I was gonna have 10 kids. I remember making that list of qualities that I want in a husband, not acknowledging at all that I was bisexual, because I didn't know that, but just these qualities in a husband. Had to be a returned missionary, had to believe in God, had to love God more than me, had to love Dave Matthews Band. I don't know. Had a few funny ones in there. But all of these loyal to God type of qualities. And I remember thinking, I'm a really loving person. I'm going to be a great mom. I'm going to be a great bishop's wife. I'm going to have 10 kids. I mean, I'm 38 and I know absolutely I would not do well with 10 kids. I just would not do well with that dedication to giving them all individual attention with What I know now about raising children, it just wouldn't work.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:38] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [00:35:39] You know, and even if I were a millionaire and could afford the help, I still wouldn't want to do it. Right. So it's funny how that's changed into, I'm raising one child. And I take a lot of pride in our relationship and our closeness. And you know what I can talk to her about in terms of my mental health needs. If I'm having a heavy day at work, it's a burnout day. It's a lots of trauma processing sessions. One after another, I get to say to my daughter, like, hey, I'm stressed. I'm gonna go take a shower. I just need a little bit of alone time. Let me know if you need anything. In the meantime, you got Roblox, you got Simpsons, you're good. But I just, I need like 20 minutes. Okay. And I feel like that is so different from how I was raised, you know, as women were raised with this idea of be this endless, you know. Well, of giving, of just like showing up for people and doing everything, but

John Dehlin [00:36:38] like for little in return.

Allison Shiffler [00:36:40] Exactly. And for what? Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I'm not gonna weigh in on the discussion of Ballerina Farm because I just, you know, I'm not trying to make everything a commentary. And also, we're not in her mind, so we don't know how she feels. And that's not. I don't know that that's the most important thing. But I will say this. There is a defensiveness to being a stay at home mom when you maybe secretly don't love it. And I get it. I get that perspective of, I wanna make this look like it works. I wanna make this look like I'm happy and I'm good. And some women have chosen that and they love it and they're killing it and they love being a stay at home mom and it's great. And they're ready for the next thing when that chapter's over. And it's wonderful. But there is a lot of pressure as a woman in any aspect of patriarchal direction where you feel like you have to make it work. I felt that way in Mormonism. I felt that way of like, no, this is totally all working for me. Like, this is going great. I love that I'm doing everything right and nothing in my patriarchal blessing is actually really happening.

John Dehlin [00:37:48] I'm not oppressed, I'm empowered.

Allison Shiffler [00:37:51] Yeah, right, Exactly. And while on one hand calling out other people on their oppression while they can't see it themselves. I mean, there it is, there's the end of the discussion. When you're in a place to recognize what's going on, you're going to say it out loud and you're probably going to change your life. As someone who, historically I've been in a few very unhealthy, some abusive relationships and, and I could make that look amazing. I could make that look like I was happy. I could pride myself on being so forgiving and having a lot of empathy for someone's trauma, even though they're projecting it on me in a way that's actually harming me. Right. We can make it look like things work for us. But you know, bringing therapy back into the discussion, one of the most important things I think we can do in caring for ourselves is being honest with ourselves, being, you know, navigating our self determination and saying, you know what, this isn't working for me and I want something else. Or like, actually I don't like being a stay at home mom and that's okay. And I've got options because I'm smart and if I can multitask with all these kids, I can probably do a bunch of other things too, you know, like. But that's it. It's not about the polarity of. There's no way you can be happy if you're doing that. That's ridiculous. You've just got to be honest with yourself about whether or not it's working for you. I could never be a stay at home mom, ever. I know that about myself. And that's just because of the sequence of events in my life that have led me to the personality that I have that I love going to work. I love it and it works for my kid. This whole summer, everybody asks me like, what does your daughter do in the summer while you're at work? I'm like, she's at an all day summer camp daycare party. Like she's killing it. It works for us. Right? There's no mom guilt. There's no thinking of the other option of being a stay at home mom because it just, it's working.

John Dehlin [00:39:50] Yeah. Beautiful. That Julia, that needs to be its own, like larger short. Because the world needs to hear Allison Shivler's truth. I'm curious. So we. Did you cover everything we got to uvsc. Did we cover everything in your high school experience that you wanted to cover in terms of what was formative for you?

High School, Dating, and the Pressure to Wed

Allison Shiffler [00:40:12] Yeah, you.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] I just want to make sure. And then we can jump right to uvsc. I'm curious.

Allison Shiffler [00:40:17] Yeah, I would say, yeah, the majority of, you know, high school, adolescence, the main thing was just like, yeah, a lot of insecurity relating to my body. Yeah. You know, the walking pornography stuff. And then like, really starting that foundational thinking of I gotta get married. Like, that's the most important thing. I'm gonna go to college. I don't know what I'm gonna do. But like in high school I just kept thinking, like, the most important thing is just like going to college and getting married. Like, that's it.

John Dehlin [00:40:47] I have to say, my sister married a never Mormon who smoked. And so she raised three kids in the church with a husband who was never gonna be able to take her to the social kingdom. So I, I can relate to how you were kind of raised a little bit, maybe through my sister, but I just can't imagine how you would have been coming to UVSC or coming to Utah saying, not on my watch. I'm going to marry a faithful Mormon boy and I'm not going to raise my kids in a part member family. And my eternal companion is going to be with me in the social kingdom, unlike my mom and my dad. Is that right or not?

Allison Shiffler [00:41:26] Yeah. I mean, when you really think about it, you know, regarding a person's values, that the vulnerable emotional part of me. Right. The literacy there was, I just wanted family. Like, I just. I just wanted a family. And if you grow up with this mentality of this is my family, but after this, we're not really going to be together, it's probably going to really, you know, create a very large desire to create that yourself because it's out of your control.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:59] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:42:00] Yeah, that's right.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:02] I was thinking about one thing you said with regard to, you know, especially in young women's, the end all being partnership. Right. Finding a husband or. And you had mentioned, you know, the false, this false notion of happiness and fulfillment just through the decision of being married. And I think, you know, we can take on that level, as problematic as it is. And I was just gonna say I think that the church adds another level that we've touched on, but I just think it's important to make it overt. And that is that you cannot be saved to the highest kingdom without being married. So it's not just like, oh, you're happiness and fulfillment and let's debate whether that's really true. But it's also that we actually, in this conditioning we receive, there's like, we can't reach the highest level without a man, without being Married, right.

Allison Shiffler [00:43:01] Well, and thinking of what that does to a young woman's self esteem, you know what I mean? When I moved to New York, and that was in my late 20s, I had this mind blowing experience. I was working as a babysitter, an on call babysitter, just babysitting for a bunch of different families. And all the women I was working for and most of them were married in partnerships, but I had never been around rich women before and I'd google them on my phones and be like, oh, she produces Good Morning America. Oh, she's a really famous author. Oh, it was the coolest experience. Oh, I have goosebumps right now. Just like being around these successful women and they were great moms and they're doing it all and you know, working really hard. But I just, it's like it was this anomaly to me. And if you've lived in New York City, it's not an anomaly, you know, like every woman there is just killing it with her Ivy League degree and like, you know, all the stuff that she's organizing and accomplishing and doing. But you know, that was like a mind blowing thing. In contrast to being raised with the idea you need a priesthood holder to be saved, you need a priesthood holder to go to heaven, you need a priesthood holder. So, you know, I don't care how liberal your word was. You know, I hear a lot of that feedback. Sometimes I'm like, well I didn't get that message. It's like, okay, well that's great if you didn't get that message. But predominantly speaking and psychologically speaking, that is pretty crushing to a girl or a woman's self esteem to be told that in order to go to heaven it's a man and like the association of his genitalia to the priesthood as to why you can be saved. You know, like again, young women's, I think for a lot of us is this missed opportunity. What would that be like if every single Sunday there was like a 10 minute spotlight of a woman talking about her career or you know, or her day as a stay at home mom or whatever. But they're there to talk about it and how it's working for them. They're there to talk about it and say this is what it looks like to get a PhD. This is how long I was in school and this is what I do, I do forensic evaluations. It's really exciting. Or I'm a stay at home mom. And I also lead a book club and I teach a dance class. And this right, like we didn't get this understanding of what reality as a successful woman could look like. We were just given the help meet discussion and that was it. That's enough. And it's righteous and it's all you need. And it turns out that's actually killing a bunch of us. And we're really not okay.

John Dehlin [00:45:52] Yeah. So you go to uvsc, you see all these women with perfect hair, perfect makeup, perfect everything at 7am you really want to find that eternal companion that you're primed. Ten children, family. What happens?

Allison Shiffler [00:46:09] So, yeah, started at UVSC at the time. And I mean, I gotta say, I got my associate's in humanities while I was there for two years prior to my mission. And it was a really great experience for the specific reason that there were a lot of professors who had the intention of opening young minds, you know, in a very conservative area of the state. So I just remember my philosophy class. I remember my gender studies class and all these. At the time, I probably branded them as liberal ideas, but it was great. It was like so many cool discussions really, during that time, you know, navigating my, like, my values. So I loved it. It was wonderful. And at the same time, going to church every Sunday, going to like three activities a week, whatever it was, the singles ward pressure was a lot.

John Dehlin [00:47:07] And what about dating Mormon boys? Oh, not good.

Allison Shiffler [00:47:11] Not good.

John Dehlin [00:47:11] Wait, that was what, that's the fun of Provo?

Allison Shiffler [00:47:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] What? That's why you go to Provo?

Allison Shiffler [00:47:22] No, there were just, you know, I remember a particular conversation that went on in my apartment where a guy who I'm. I'm hopeful and I'm sure he's a great person now, and everybody says stupid things, but he was taught he was talking to a room full of women in my Raintree apartment. You know, six girls living in an apartment.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:41] I lived in Raintree.

Allison Shiffler [00:47:42] Oh, I loved it. It was great. It was fun. And he was talking to us about FBI P meaning fat potential.

John Dehlin [00:47:50] Yeah, I remember that.

Allison Shiffler [00:47:51] Looking at the ankles and looking at. And you know, having. Having these moments as a young woman where you're like.

John Dehlin [00:47:57] But put it in context. Why would a Mormon young man be talking about fat potential?

Allison Shiffler [00:48:02] Well, because he was given this idea of this woman, pure bride, as being his reward. I mean, that's really what it's about, right? This trophy wife idea of do the right thing.

John Dehlin [00:48:17] Mormon trophy wife. Right.

Allison Shiffler [00:48:18] Mormon trophy wife. Don't mas, masturbate, don't look at porn, go on a mission. You know, just like be a non human. I don't know how that all works, by the way. But, like, just do all these things righteously, and your wife will be hot, and she'll want to have sex with you all the time. And, you know.

John Dehlin [00:48:38] And part of hot's being thin.

Allison Shiffler [00:48:39] Yeah. Part of hot is like, her body won't change. She will remain in a state of somehow already going through puberty. But, like, you know, she, like, the whole. It just. It's so disgusting. And also have kids.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:51] That's what I was gonna say. And also have all the babies and just return.

Allison Shiffler [00:48:56] Right. Have all the babies.

John Dehlin [00:48:57] And all the depression.

Allison Shiffler [00:48:58] All the energy to have sex.

John Dehlin [00:48:59] All the depression.

Allison Shiffler [00:49:00] Oh, my goodness. Right. So, yeah, you know, it wasn't. It wasn't, of course, every single experience, but my experience dating Mormon men kind of sounded like this. Going on a date and getting into some conversation. And then this response of, you're really smart. So many times I can't count it, to the point that I was like, this is ridiculous.

John Dehlin [00:49:29] Wait, are you saying that was.

Allison Shiffler [00:49:31] I've got opinions. I can keep up with you. Cause this isn't really hard. And I got this response over and over and over again. Only in Utah, by the way, you're really small. That was kind of the response I got in dating of, like, what was

John Dehlin [00:49:46] behind that reaction the boys had to you being smart? What were they thinking?

Allison Shiffler [00:49:50] Well, I mean, it sounds like they were given some, you know, conditioning, brainwashing. Some conditioning of thinking that women serve this purpose of being pretty and sexually entertaining and great for companionship and great for providing. But, you know, at some point, I don't know if we had gotten into a discussion. I just remember being at a Red Robin at Provo Town Center Mall, and we were talking about areas of political, social funding. I'm in social work, so we're talking about some things, and this guy kind of looks at me because I think he didn't know what to say because he didn't know what he was talking about. It's not his field. And he just kind of paused with, you're really smart. Which is just disappointing. Like, by no means is that a compliment. I don't pause with a man and say, you're really smart. I'm just really surprised by the fact that you have opinions and that you've read books and that you can keep up just a lot of those areas of sexism. And on one hand, I can understand that there may be, for that man's experience, relevance to what our culture is, which is many, many, many, many, many women discouraged from completing their education, discouraged from going on to get higher degrees, discouraged from, you know, really focusing on their career and discouraged.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:31] Don't you find to connect with themselves, which is a way you form opinions.

Allison Shiffler [00:51:36] Right, Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:37] So if you have a disconnected human, you're much more, like, less apt to

Allison Shiffler [00:51:41] be able to say what you feel,

Margi Dehlin [00:51:44] say what you think. Right.

Allison Shiffler [00:51:45] Yeah. And I, you know, and I grew up in a family where being smart's valued. You know, one of my favorite tattoos is my Simpsons tattoo right there.

John Dehlin [00:51:54] Okay. That's homeward. Marge, Lisa, Maggie, and Bart on the couch.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:01] Is that part of your family culture?

Allison Shiffler [00:52:02] Yeah. So every. This was every single Sunday at 8. Get off AOL. It's time for the Simpsons. It was like, that was our family time. That there is. There's also.

John Dehlin [00:52:14] I approve.

Allison Shiffler [00:52:16] Are you feeling it? Yeah. And there's. There's some. Also some emotional context to that, which is like, you know, Simpsons was this constant in my. In my life, in my family's life, where we were always coming back to watch the Simpsons. And that's also a little bit of a parallel to myself and my daughter of, like, okay, I'm here for her. Like, we've got this really incredible dynamic. I don't know. There's a beautiful backstory to that tattoo, but when we watch the Simpsons, you know, my parents would interject and say, that's a reference to Gone with the Wind. That's a reference to Grapes of Wrath. That's, you know, that's a Frank Sinatra impression. That's what that, you know, they were keeping us on top of all of the relevance of everything regarding society, regarding literature, regarding classic movies. So we grew up, you know, with a lot of context and understanding of just all things art, all things culture. I have very smart parents. And, yeah, if there's anything on the whole entire planet I never, ever, ever, ever want to be, it's dumb. It's ignorant. It's unaware. So again, to come back to Utah, navigate this dating life, and to be told with amazement, surprise, and dumbfoundedness, you're really smart. It was a really disappointing comment to hear over and over again.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] Can I also just say not to interrupt. Did I interrupt? We'll finish what you're saying.

Allison Shiffler [00:53:44] No, no, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:53:45] Well, my experience of men in Provo is they also. Not only might they be surprised to find an educated woman who values the intellect and intellectual life, they might feel intimidated by the prospect of marrying one because they want to be the head of the household, they want to preside, and they don't want to preside over Someone smarter than they are, maybe.

Allison Shiffler [00:54:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:10] Is that possible? I'm not trying to, like, put that on your story, but I'm going to

Allison Shiffler [00:54:15] be real honest with you, and maybe I don't want to be too identifying about this, but there was a time when I was in a very committed relationship where a man got emotional, like, started to tear up as he said, you have no idea how hard it is to argue with someone who's smarter than me. And I'm, like, supposed to not laugh in this moment. I'm supposed to feel bad. Like, what? So, yeah, it's not about hierarchy. Like, what if we're both smart? What if we both can engage in problem solving? What if we both can navigate areas of logistics and operations in a family? Did you think it was all gonna work if you're the head of the household and you have dominance over everybody?

Margi Dehlin [00:55:06] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [00:55:06] Like, why would that work? Why would that work?

John Dehlin [00:55:08] Underutilizing your resources?

Allison Shiffler [00:55:10] Right, yeah, absolutely. In addition to the fact that that's a lot of pressure. So I don't really want that for you. And also, everyone will be miserable if it's like a monarchy. Like, what are we doing here, both of us?

Margi Dehlin [00:55:21] Right?

Allison Shiffler [00:55:21] Yeah. And so that was a funny thing of coming out to Utah, navigating this dating life, and noticing, you know, I don't really fit in with this culture very well.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:30] Like, yes, I'm hearing that in terms

Allison Shiffler [00:55:32] of the righteousness pursuits, like trying to be good, you know, trying to do all the things. All of my callings were young women's or, I'm sorry, Relief Society president, gospel doctor and teacher. It was always things like that, you know, very dedicated callings, Sunday school teacher or whatever. But, yeah, I was always just really disappointed, I would say culturally, by a lot of the Mormon men that I went on dates with and what they expected me to be as a woman, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:04] So in. So with your experience at uvsc, is it kind of like, intellectually you're being stimulated, you're exploring, you're feeling, like, a lot of exciting things that way? I'm hearing dating, like, not. Not super aligned. What about your church experience? How would you talk about that? Were you feeling some alignment, Total misalignment? Was culture, like, very much overwritten with the religion and your experience of church?

Allison's Church Experience Before Her Mission

Allison Shiffler [00:56:36] You know, my church experience, and I'm grateful for this. You know, it's. At one point in my life, I probably thought this was really awful. And it was because it was traumatic, and I'm grateful it happened. But after I came home from my Mission, my church experience really took over how I saw Mormonism, the doctrine, et cetera, because I was in the process of getting disfellowshipped.

Serving a Mission in Russia

John Dehlin [00:57:04] Do you want to talk about your mission first?

Margi Dehlin [00:57:05] Maybe we should talk about mission then.

Allison Shiffler [00:57:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:08] So, yeah, when you chose to go on a mission, the church had not yet really come out encouraging women to serve mission, it was men. So I'm curious what led to that decision and how your mission went.

Allison Shiffler [00:57:22] I mean, on one hand it was the default. I would say it was like 50, 50, 50% empowerment of I'm gonna do this. And I felt cool about it. Felt like it's kinda cool to be a sister missionary.

John Dehlin [00:57:35] Would you have identified as a feminist by that point?

Allison Shiffler [00:57:37] Not at that point. And maybe by definition I was, but that language was forbidden. Yeah, I didn't like it. You know, I wouldn't have said that. And so, yeah, I put in my mission papers and got my mission call to Vladivostok, Russia. And when I read my letter, you know, in Raintree Apartments, my mom's on the phone and she goes another post communist country, because my one brother went to the Czech Republic, my other brother went to Romania. So I'm going to Vladivostoke, Russia. I mean, I was excited. Really, really, really excited. And it's funny, you know, it's funny how our stories change over time. If we were talking about this five years ago, I would probably have a lot more sad, maybe even negative things to say about my mission. But, you know, we get older, we have a wise summary and perspective on things as we look back. And my mission is why I got into my career. I mean, my mission was this part of my feeling that I just, I wanted to work with people and I want to work with people who are going through really, really hard times. Because in Russia, as you walk around and ask everybody very casually how they are as missionaries, you know, trying to engage in conversation. So we're walking around saying, stras vitya kakpa diala. Like, how are you? And you don't do. That's not a thing you do there. So people would answer with, I'm terrible. My brother died a few months ago, how are you? You know, it was like. And that kept happening. And As a young 21 year old, I think, you know, a very important experience, especially of everyone's going through it. Like, everyone has a lot of pain they're carrying. I just want to talk to them about the Book of Mormon. I just want to, you know, get more contacts and.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:45] Right.

Allison Shiffler [00:59:46] And it's it's, you know, pretty. It's pretty profound.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:51] That's so interesting because in a way, the way we've been conditioned, they're going off script.

Allison Shiffler [00:59:57] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:58] Because we're used to, like, I'm good, How are you? I'm fine, how are you? Or, and so you're experiencing like, I've got the script, I've got that. And then they're showing up with realness, like real life, real pain.

Allison Shiffler [01:00:12] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:14] I also remember interviewing some people from Ukraine on Mormon stories at one point or another. And I remember them saying that one of the relics of, like the Soviet era is people keep to themselves.

Allison Shiffler [01:00:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:26] So you don't get into other people's business and saying, hey, how are you doing?

Allison Shiffler [01:00:30] Right.

John Dehlin [01:00:31] That violates people's sense of like, secrecy because of kind of kgb.

Allison Shiffler [01:00:37] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:37] Did you feel that?

Allison Shiffler [01:00:38] Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, if you think of it in like an American translation, it would be like someone walking up to you and say, like, hey, what's the most painful thing that you're going through right now? You'd be like, do I answer that? You know, so just asking, how about

John Dehlin [01:00:54] why are they asking?

Allison Shiffler [01:00:55] Right, Exactly. Yeah. Like, hi, how are you? And we've got this, you know, for lack of a better word, agenda or intention of what we want to talk to them about, what we want to teach them about. And it's this very ironic moment of like, oh, they. You know, I really felt as a missionary, you know, the strong opinion that we were doing it wrong by just trying to baptize and just trying to reactivate people. It's like, we could just do service. We could just like do a lot of good things for this community and learn more about what they need. But, you know, there is this really huge expectation of baptizing people. And especially with regard to that pressure of. It's like the prophet and then there's you. That's how important you are. You know, as a missionary, you're really given this pressure and this message of how important this time is, how important it is that you get this language right, how important it is that you work every single day, all day, waste and wear out your lives for the gospel of Jesus Christ. Like, they're going to be saved or they're not. This is everything. This is the most high stakes thing you can do, which is let that person pass you or pause and talk to them, and maybe you'll save their whole entire eternal existence. And I felt that as much as I was this, you know, child underachiever of Like, I don't think I'll make it to the celestial kingdom. I really felt a lot of pressure on my mission. I remember crying every single day, every single day in the mtc where I was for three months, and being so discouraged at how slow I was picking up Russian. Like I wasn't good enough and I wasn't getting it. And the conjugations are really complicated and I'm learning how to speak in a way for people to be saved. So, like, I have to learn this. And eventually, you know, I picked up a lot of it and I think I got pretty good at it. Cause you know, you're just thrown in there and you gotta practice because you just have to start talking to people. And you know, on one hand, there's a lot of aspects of that experience culturally, you know, traveling internationally as a young adult that were really good, like, really, really important experiences that got me out of my American ethnocentrism. You know, like, I would love for my kid to go travel somewhere internationally as a young adult. I think that's like an important experience for your psyche. Absolutely. But the shame that came with it. I mean, I made a huge mistake on my mission that we were pretty discouraged to do. I read the Miracle of Forgiveness, which is like one of the worst things ever written. It's so horrible. It's so awful.

John Dehlin [01:03:58] Tell our audience why. It's written by Spencer B. Kimball, a former Mormon prophet. It was the church's go to book for repentance for 30, 40 years. So why would it be awful?

Allison Shiffler [01:04:08] It also, it almost canonizes OCD thinking. Like, you have to think meticulously about every single thing. And if you forget it or you're not conscious of it and you don't actually say it out loud to a bishop, yeah, you're not gonna make it. You're not gonna make it to heaven. You do have to remember every single

John Dehlin [01:04:31] thing, every bad thing. You've done every single thing, and confess it to a bishop.

Allison Shiffler [01:04:35] Right. It's like, I mean, to my understanding, they don't publish this anymore.

John Dehlin [01:04:39] No, they took it out of prison because it was so damaging.

Allison Shiffler [01:04:42] It is so damaging. And you know, and that's another funny thing. You know, I think culture wise, regarding literature, doctrine, et cetera, these things that have done so much damage and have caused so much pain and self hatred, we just say like, uh, it's out of print. No, that's fine. And are we really actually fixing anything with regard to how hard people are on themselves in the church? So I remember Going to my mission president and. And confessing these two things, both of which were sexual in nature and very uncomfortable to say out loud. And things that, you know, he's one of the few who kind of went like this with details. He didn't. You know, I think he's a really good person. He didn't want to hear any of it. It was like, it's okay. It's all right. You watched porn for about 10 whole seconds. It's okay. Or like, you masturbated and it's just. It's okay. Just, you know, pray with Heavenly Father and it's okay. And, like, keep working. He was really sweet about it. But I remember days leading up to that feeling really physically sick. Like, feeling like I was a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible person. Or like I was sneaky. Like I was hiding these things and that I got past the mission interview and, I mean, none of these things were big deals at all. Like, at all.

John Dehlin [01:06:08] They were just W. Kimball.

Allison Shiffler [01:06:11] Yeah, absolutely. And so, yeah, there were, you know,

John Dehlin [01:06:15] Kimball, masturbation leads to homosexuality.

Allison Shiffler [01:06:17] Right, right. Which, you know, I guess it adds up for a lot of us, but no. Yeah, that was a really hard part of my mission of just feeling. Just unworthy. Like, feeling like a bad person.

John Dehlin [01:06:30] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [01:06:31] And again, there were lots of beautiful experiences, interacted with a lot of really amazing people. A lot of really beautiful people. And I'm glad I did it. I'm glad I went again. Living abroad as a young adult will take you out of your comfort zone and will build some grit. And it was good. It was really good.

John Dehlin [01:06:53] One thing we have people do sometimes, Julie asked me to ask you this is we have them just kind of bear their quick testimony in the language that they learned as they would have borne it as a missionary. Are you comfortable doing that?

Allison Shiffler [01:07:06] Oh, man, I'm rusty. Hold on, let me think, let me think.

John Dehlin [01:07:10] I know God lives. I know Jesus is the Christ.

Allison Shiffler [01:07:27] Oh, man. What's the word for savior? Oh, man, I'm rusty. I'm rusty. I'm rusty.

John Dehlin [01:07:31] I know the Book of Mormon.

Allison Shiffler [01:07:37] Joseph Asmita. What is it? Oh, man. Yeah, I got it.

John Dehlin [01:07:42] It's been a while.

Allison Shiffler [01:07:42] It's been a while. Yeah. I used to. Had the first vision memorized, had all that stuff, but I gotta brush up.

John Dehlin [01:07:48] I gotta brush up. Light descending.

Allison Shiffler [01:07:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:51] So what. The way you've talked about your mission, it's almost like the. The environment, the culture, the people, kind of the external you. You taking in a new reality. In Russia, all that was really beneficial. But that your relationship and kind of the story or the way you related to yourself was actually an increase in guilt and shame. Is that what you would say?

Allison Shiffler [01:08:19] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Just in terms of how I saw myself, it made me. It made me harder on myself with, you know, the. The inaccurate thinking that I just. I had to try harder and I had to do better and I had to, like.

John Dehlin [01:08:40] I think that's what missions are designed to create.

Allison Shiffler [01:08:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:44] It binds you feeling possibly worse about yourself.

Allison Shiffler [01:08:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:49] And it makes you more committed to the church.

Allison Shiffler [01:08:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:51] Because you feel like you're inadequate and the church is what's going to fix it.

Allison Shiffler [01:08:56] Right.

John Dehlin [01:08:57] I think.

Allison Shiffler [01:08:57] Yeah. Well, in. In any aspects of obedience, like just breaking a person to make them docile, to make them feel less about themselves. I mean, when I really look back on where things changed for me, and this was after my mission, but I remember thinking to myself, I don't have to feel bad about this, but if your brain doesn't go there, if you just keep feeling bad about normal. Normal things, normal behavior, even healthy things. Healthy things, then yeah, you are. You are in a position of. I mean, docile is just the word that comes to mind. Kind of like being trained like a dog to obey.

John Dehlin [01:09:41] There's a certain identity they want you to assume. They want to break down any personal, individual identity and. And recreate in you the identity that is optimal for the church, I think.

Allison Shiffler [01:09:53] Right.

John Dehlin [01:09:53] Is that right?

Allison Shiffler [01:09:54] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, it doesn't. It doesn't work. It really actually doesn't work. To have members of the church navigate their own autonomy based on what feels good. It will all fall apart. People improve their mental health, you know, navigate their autonomy and make life choices based on what feels good to them. It will all fall apart because someone will say, no, kindly no, I'm not going to accept that calling. I'm really burned out right now, and I'm actually slowing down with work and that calling doesn't work for me.

John Dehlin [01:10:34] Don't want 10 kids, you know, don't want to get married.

Allison Shiffler [01:10:37] So many. No, we're not going to go on a mission. We just had our fifth grandkid and we're just having a great time. So that doesn't work for us.

John Dehlin [01:10:46] Yeah, that's not.

Allison Shiffler [01:10:47] And so he can give that message to God because. Which is so ironic. Right. Like that this is the. I would say the nucleus of wellness is your ability to connect with yourself and answer the question of, like, what do I need? Like, what do I need to do? And so, yeah, when we go, you know, into these areas of thinking where we are filled with so much shame. And, I mean, I want to make a point. There are areas of responsibility. That doesn't feel good, and it's uncomfortable, but that's important. But that's not what shame is, Right? Shame puts you in this place of just feeling like a bad person definitively. And, I mean, how are you supposed to live the life you know, you want to live when you can't even fathom what it's like to love yourself or care about yourself?

John Dehlin [01:11:43] You know, real quick, I get the sense that the Mormon Church in Russia is not doing great, that maybe it's less healthy and strong now than it was. My mission's closed.

Allison Shiffler [01:11:53] I mean, my mission isn't there anymore.

John Dehlin [01:11:56] So my question is, having served a Mormon mission in Russia for a year and a half while you were there, did you feel like the product you were offering them was improving their lives? If so, how? If not, why not?

Allison Shiffler [01:12:13] No. I mean, not improving that. No. You know, I think maybe it was helpful for us to, for example, provide free English club, you know, just like, helping people learn a language, like, whatever. There's some fun American service that we could do while we were there. But, no, I mean, I feel awful about asking people in Poverty to donate 10% of their earnings at the time, by the way, not understanding at all how much this church maintains in their assets and their investments in their, you know, real estate. Like, this church has an ungodly amount of money.

John Dehlin [01:12:57] Hundreds of billions.

Allison Shiffler [01:12:58] Hundreds of billions. And that's just billions. We're not talking about all the other very strategic things that they do in terms of navigating their wealth, business strategies, et cetera. And there we are asking people to donate money, save up money for the temple trip to Seoul, Korea. I mean, it's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous when we think about what the church is asking people to do in order to prove their loyalty. And they don't really have that much. There was a rule when I first came out to the field that the members were not allowed to feed us. And the reason for that was Russian people are very, very, very generous, and they will give you a whole spread, a whole table of food, regardless of how much they really have for the rest of the week. And so that was a rule initially of, like, you know, don't accept food. We can do tea, we can do cookies. We can do little snacks and things like that. But it's totally okay for us to make that tithing lesson, you know, crucial within the first few lessons, like, we gotta bang that one out and make sure that they're dedicated. You know, it's stuff like that you look back on and the only way you can make peace with it is saying I was young and I was doing the best I could at the time. And also that's what I doing was taught, like really intensely taught in a three month training period where I was isolated from society. I mean, everything about it was really intense. But yeah, I look back and see the good that came from it in terms of my personal growth and how living abroad specifically helped me get into social work. But for the most part, I look back and regret everything that came out of my mouth.

John Dehlin [01:14:54] It now that I think about, like the way the current political climate is, Russia and America appear to be like archenemies. I'm just wondering how safe it is for a Russian to believe that America has the one true church and that some white old dude in Utah in America is his true prophet. Like, is that even safe for a Russian to believe nowadays?

Allison Shiffler [01:15:17] I mean, something interesting about serving a mission in Russia. You know, Russians are very, very smart people. You know, I can't make a monolith, you know, comment like that. But I was unprepared for the level of critical thinking that they brought into our lessons. I was unprepared for the reading our investigators had done before. I was like, if we're maybe talking like seven years before, I was going to get to that reading. So, you know, the Russian people, they've been through it. They've been through a lot in terms of all that they've survived. So for us to come there with this message of this new religion that started in America and it was, you know, a lot of people were a little suspicious of this.

John Dehlin [01:16:07] In fact, Mormonism teaches that the United States is the true country, like the best country in the world. How that lands well.

Allison Shiffler [01:16:13] And something that I'll say for maybe a specific age group of Russians, that's like hilarious to them because their level of patriotism is, I don't know, 50 times more than ours, if I'm being honest. So, yeah, it's kind of funny to come there with this, like, you know, ethnocentric. Yeah, like, oh my goodness, we're the best. And they're like, no, you're not. We are actually. We always have been. You know, and I, and I think that level of patriotism also has to, to do again with the timeline and the history of everything they've been through, like back to geographically, you know, Genghis Khan, like, going through so much change, so much oppression, so much survival. And so it really, you know, connects you, I think, as a people, as to, like, how strong they are and what they've been through. But, yeah, that was, you know, kind of felt like a punchline for them in terms of us presenting this savior America, just idealist view. It was a little embarrassing to look back on. Now, I have a quick question.

Returning Home and Pursuing Social Work

Margi Dehlin [01:17:20] I think you mentioned social work. Your desire to learn more about social work, to pursue social work, was kind of born in your mission. Is that what you said? How so?

Allison Shiffler [01:17:32] Going back to that whole idea of asking people, how are you them getting into more than 20 times this happened, where somebody would answer the question, hi, how are you? In disclosing something traumatic that had happened in their life, you know, usually like a death or a tragedy. And again, as a 21 year old, like, you don't know how young you are when you're in your 20s, you know, like learning so much about the world and that big takeaway of, you know, everybody's going through it and if they're not now, they will, you know, like, life is a really painful experience. And so as I learned more, I think through those conversations just about the human experience, I knew that I wanted to work with people. And as I learned more about the field of social work specifically, I thought if I have to work, if I have to make money, part of it is I'm an extrovert. Part of it is I just really like people and I like hearing people's stories. But social work also places an emphasis on broken or oppressive systems and just the reality of what we can do in moving forward to help people. And so it just felt good. It just felt right, you know, the idea of, like, taking care of each other, but more so emphasizing work in this field where you get to contribute, contribute to something that is maybe preventative or, you know, something that is fixing a system. So it just kind of. I don't know, it just kind of felt right. It felt like this is what I want to do. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:12] Is that what you pursued when you got off your mission?

Allison Shiffler [01:19:15] Yep. So came home from my mission, finished my degree, Utah Valley State College, Utah Valley University, and, you know, started out with an internship at DCFS after that.

John Dehlin [01:19:30] That's Utah's child protection.

Allison Shiffler [01:19:33] Yeah, Child Protective Services. Yeah. So Department of Child and Family Services. And, you know, everything in my background of social work, it's been very, very, very hard work, you know, just very deep in trauma. I mean, quite frankly, use Trauma seeing. You're just seeing the worst choices that people can make, and you're seeing how people are affected by that. Right. And so whether it was working with child abuse, neglect, and, I mean, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that that also includes parents who have a lot of resources whatsoever to care for their children while they maybe are navigating addiction or low cognitive functioning or some aspect of their life that makes parenting incredibly hard. So it was a really good experience. I had really great supervisors who talked about the historical problems in Child and Family services and why we needed to, you know, work more consciously and ethically in reuniting families and giving people resources. So it was a really. That was a really great experience.

Premarital Sex, Discipline, and Church Consequences

John Dehlin [01:20:48] Were you afraid to graduate from a Utah University unmarried or not? I'm projecting, but no.

Allison Shiffler [01:20:56] No, I. I don't think I was. You know, I think throughout my 20s, I still had that mentality of, I'm still not married. I wonder when I'll get married. I thought I'd have kids by now. I thought I'd have four kids by now. I thought I'd have ten kids by now. You know, like, I definitely was thinking that throughout, you know, my degree, throughout the education, et cetera. But, you know, it was during my bachelor's in social work that I was also really starting to see the church for what it was. And the reason for that was because I was kind of in and out of a unhealthy dating relationship, and more specifically, was having premarital sex after my mission with my boyfriend.

John Dehlin [01:21:45] Now, how did you. You had. Sorry, you had been endowed in the Mormon Temple, and you make covenants there, including the law of chastity. And if you violate those covenants before you're married, that can be really serious, including being excommunicated, and plus the guilt and shame of all the spets. Debbie Kimball stuff. So how did you start becoming sexually active as a returned missionary, especially after all the guilt and shame you had already been carrying?

Allison Shiffler [01:22:18] It's funny, because I think there's a psychological component in this that's really, really important, which is if you grow up with this, you know, I call it. I blame Mormonism a little bit in terms of, like, my dependence for wanting a man to save me and wanting to be in a relationship. And then also, I do know that I watched Little Mermaid on repeat as a child in a high chair. So, like, what was it like? Just this whole dependence of, like, I need to be with a man and I need to, like, you know, that's, that's how I'm going to be. Okay. That's how I'm going to be happy. The relationship that I was in at the time was not very healthy, meaning, like I wasn't very respected. It was like very on and off commitment. But I was also in this Mormon young woman brain as like, please love me, please, please respect me, please commit to me, please. You know, and so it was easy for me to break my values at the time for someone who probably just wanted to have sex. Yeah. You know, not necessarily wanted anything respectful or focused on growth or commitment, but like, you know, sex is fun and this girl's obsessed with me, so this is probably easy. Yeah. So, you know, I won't get too deep into that. But, you know, I think there were some character flaws of this individual. My problem though was I was honest with my bishop, you know, like I told him very quickly that I had broken the law of chastity, had sex with my boyfriend, and that began a really life changing path because it led to the lowest point in my mental health. I mean, I remember feeling, and this sounds kind of funny to say, but it wasn't funny to go through. I remember feeling and thinking to myself, I'm worse than Charles Manson. Like, I'm worse than an evil man who wants to kill. Like, I am a horrible, horrible person because I kept going to the bishop every single week to account for my actions. We had sex again. We had sex again, you know, and at one point my bishop looked at me and he said, I just don't understand why this keeps happening. Were you sexually abused as a child? And you know, there's a very large population of people who have experienced that. And that has absolutely nothing to do with being a 24 year old who's new to having sex with her boyfriend. And you just kind of want to keep having sex, especially if you have an unhealthy attachment mentality and you just want them to like you and you just want them to commit. So like it can become kind of a, you know, a toxic vehicle for connection in that particular context. So there were a lot of moments like that. There were a lot of problematic things said by bishops. There were a lot of moments of just actually feeling like I'm just a really bad person. That was the hardest thing about it, just thinking like, I must be so bad because I keep doing this and it's the temple, it's my covenants, it's my future. It's like all these things on this laminated patriarchal Blessing that will never come true because I'm actively messing it up. And you know, what I needed, like, what I needed a bishop to say to me was like, hey, how's this guy treating you? Like, how are you feeling in this whole thing? Like, how is everything going? You know? Because, like, I was not okay. I was not doing great. And I did have women in my life. I did have roommates seeing that. Seeing, like, hey, this guy isn't respecting you also. This guy's doing this to other women also. You know, like, that was the issue. That was the concern that, you know, I was being taken advantage of by someone who was just kind of like an emotional vampire. Just, like, wasn't really respecting me. I needed someone to check in on how I was doing, not whether or not I was keeping my covenants.

John Dehlin [01:26:39] The bishop's like, wait, are you doing it? Are you still doing it?

Allison Shiffler [01:26:41] Right.

John Dehlin [01:26:42] That's all he was trained to care about.

Allison Shiffler [01:26:44] Right, Right. And so that led to a disciplinary council.

John Dehlin [01:26:48] Oh, no. Do you. Oh, do you want to talk about that?

Allison Shiffler [01:26:50] Yeah, I went. Went to two of those.

John Dehlin [01:26:53] So do you want to tell our audience, especially our Never Mormons, what that's like?

Allison Shiffler [01:26:57] So what. That is a disciplinary council? There is absolutely a scene in the Handmaid's Tale TV show that depicts something like this, but in my case. So I'm. I'm a young woman, I'm 24, and I enter a room where there's a half circle of men, and I would say maybe seven of them, although one of them was a man my age in the priesthood, you know, because he was filling in for someone, so he got to be there to hear everything.

John Dehlin [01:27:35] So someone you would be attending church with?

Allison Shiffler [01:27:38] Right, Right. A guy. A guy who could have asked me out on a date or something. He was filling in, like, for someone in the bishopric or something. I remember thinking, like, why is he here? Like, he's gonna listen to all this? So, Allison, tell us what happened. Tell us why you're here. Tell us about breaking your covenants. And, you know, you're thinking to yourself, okay, should I. Should I be detailed? Should I tell them everything? I mean, the gist of it is I broke my covenants and had sex with my boyfriend. I mean, that's it. But I noticed that they wanted me. When I wasn't getting emotional, they wanted me to dig deeper. In fact, I got the feedback of Allison, it doesn't really seem like you feel really that bad. And when this guy said that, I remember just breaking down, like, of course I feel Bad. I'm not allowed to go to the temple. Of course I feel bad. I'm not teaching anymore. I don't have a calling. Of course I feel bad. I'm not allowed to pray in public. And last Sunday at the end of Sunday school, someone said, sister Shiffler, could you please say the closing prayer? And I had to say, no, I can't go.

John Dehlin [01:28:50] When the sacraments passed to you in front of all your peers, what did you have to do?

Allison Shiffler [01:28:54] And you can't take it.

John Dehlin [01:28:55] You pass it right along. Right.

Allison Shiffler [01:28:57] And you know, when we say these things out loud, I mean, it's asinine. Like the public shame. This sounds medieval. This is insane. It's actually so awful and damaging that we make worthiness, this public thing that everybody has to see and approve of for you. And in the case of, you know, being honest with your bishop, all power to everybody who lies to their bishops, by the way. Like, you know, for me to just say, yeah, okay, we had sex again. And then this leads to a disciplinary council where I feel like a really harmful person in society. Just like this level of shame I'm feeling. So that led to being disfellowshipped. I want to say. At first I was like, I don't know. It was a more casual disfellowship. And then in the second council, I was officially disfellowshipped. I forget what the first one was.

John Dehlin [01:29:57] What does that mean when you get disfellowshipped? How do they tell you? What do they tell you?

Allison Shiffler [01:30:02] So they inform you that you cannot have a temple recommend, meaning you cannot attend the temple. I was encouraged to walk around the temple grounds, which I did many times, just walking outside.

John Dehlin [01:30:13] Do you have to take your garments off or you allowed to keep wearing your garments?

Allison Shiffler [01:30:17] I think they can be specific or individual about that. I was told to keep wearing mine. No taking the sacrament, no calling, no praying in public. Was the one where I was like, what? Okay. And so I think that was the main summary of it. But, yeah, it was. It was awful.

John Dehlin [01:30:42] And how does it get undone? How does it get removed or lifted, did they say?

Allison Shiffler [01:30:46] I mean, you just. You got to be good. You got to be good for a long time, and we'll just. We'll see how it goes. We'll check on it whenever, you know, the right bishop, maybe in a future ward. Yeah, we'll evaluate. Yeah, yeah. We'll just kind of go with the feeling of, like, meh. Yeah. Do we. I don't know, six, maybe six months.

John Dehlin [01:31:05] Like, six Months, like three months. What?

Allison Shiffler [01:31:08] I don't know if they gave me a timeline. I think they just said, like, yeah,

Margi Dehlin [01:31:11] it'll be a while.

Allison Shiffler [01:31:12] Probably six months, maybe to a year. But this was something that went on for a few years. And, you know, for me, specifically, what happened was I ended up continuing my path of being a normal young woman in college and continued to have sex, which, you know, for the most part, were pretty positive, consensual experiences. But I remember getting to a point where I just thought, I don't feel bad anymore. I don't feel bad.

John Dehlin [01:31:46] They were right. The disputed council was right. You didn't feel. Eventually didn't feel bad, Right?

Margi Dehlin [01:31:51] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [01:31:51] Which is ironic because in that. In that room, I felt like I was about to be burned at the stake. Like, I was Hester Prynne. It was just awful. Right. And all of a sudden, I think I just kept thinking to myself, like, I'm just having normal experiences. That first one with that guy I was dating, there were a lot of emotionally unhealthy things there, but there were also some positive sexual experiences, you know, where people were safe and people used protection and asked questions, and it wasn't bad. And I just thought, yeah, I don't need to feel bad about this. It's almost like the. You know how we have these phrases, like, the veil was becoming thinner.

John Dehlin [01:32:33] It's like your eyes were open.

Allison Shiffler [01:32:35] Yeah, my eyes were open. Exactly. I was just seeing a little bit more clearly, like, I'm not doing anything harmful, and I just don't think I need to feel bad about this anymore. So this continued as I lived. I was in Utah, living in Salt Lake, so doing the disciplinary stuff down in Utah Valley, moved up to Salt Lake, did disciplinary stuff up here, and, yeah, trying my hardest. And eventually I moved to New York. And this is when I'm 26, I moved to New York and I informing my bishop, my branch president, actually, in my Brooklyn singles ward, like, okay, I gotta let you know, I don't have a temple recommend, but I'm working. Working on it. And just wherever you go.

An Unplanned Pregnancy and Difficult Decisions

Margi Dehlin [01:33:19] Yeah, you're having to re.

Allison Shiffler [01:33:21] Yep. This is my Scarlet Letter. Let me give you the background of it. This right. Like, oh, my goodness. And so eventually, you know, I'm living in New York. I'm working as a nanny. I'm actually living with my. My friend who I met in the mtc, and he's in New York and he's gay now, and he's living his life. And so it's like kind of an interesting you know, roommate dynamic of a lot of us that are kind of navigating our own ways with Mormonism. And I had a real fun life, and I was trying things and partying and doing a lot of great things that I couldn't do for too long because it's too exhausting. The nightlife, the club life, the experimentation was safe and fine, but it ended. And I actually ended up applying for Columbia University. It was my mom, actually, who said, are you ever gonna get your master's? Are you ever gonna, like, do that? I think, you know, on one hand, I wasn't married, so I think my mom was like, hey, these are some options, you know? But she was encouraging me. So I applied to Columbia University. I got in, and then two weeks later, I found out I was pregnant. And, I mean, to be honest, I really knew very instantly that I was going to do both. I knew that the biological dad was not going to be involved or at capacity to be involved. And when I went to inform my bishop of this, because this was a big thing to inform him of, which is, hey, I know we're working on this whole temple recommend stuff. I'm pregnant and I'm single. And, you know, I'm not going to give you the whole background on that, Bishop, but I'm keeping this baby. I'm going to Columbia. I'm going to do this. And his response was, well, I'd be lying if I didn't say that. I am very disappointed.

John Dehlin [01:35:33] What the.

Allison Shiffler [01:35:34] Wow. I mean. Okay. And the funny thing about that is, it's almost like I was free from that point on. Like, I don't have to keep trying to be impossibly good. I don't have to keep following these rules. And also, no, Thanks. I am 29 at the time.

John Dehlin [01:35:57] Who are you, by the way?

Allison Shiffler [01:35:58] Yeah, I'm pregnant. I got into an Ivy League school.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:01] School.

Allison Shiffler [01:36:02] You don't know where I grew up. Like, this is a big deal, and I'm really proud of myself, and I'm taking my social work education to, like, a different level. And I'm really excited about this. And I know this might be a little crazy, but also, maybe it isn't crazy to start a family when I'm starting my education and when I'm in a place of, like, actually starting to feel really good about myself.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:26] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [01:36:27] And, you know, not that it's the most ideal scenario to, you know, raise a child by yourself and start out with, you know, government assistance, et cetera, on one hand, what is ideal? I don't know. Because the reason I did it was because of the contrast of what Mormonism told me I had to do. So I had a baby without a man. I. I mean, I. You know, he gave me half a zygote, don't get me wrong. But, like, without a man, like, I got pregnant. I went to all my appointments, getting all my blood work done, did all my stuff, did my Columbia orientation, did my first semester, did, you know, bouncing my baby on my back, wearing her writing papers, living off of five cups of coffee. Because I read the research on pregnancy, which is like, you can have five cups of coffee when you're pregnant. Don't do more than that. Anyway, so the first year I'm pregnant, second year I have a baby.

John Dehlin [01:37:23] Can I ask a question?

Margi Dehlin [01:37:23] Wow.

Allison Shiffler [01:37:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:25] Was there a process of deciding whether you wanted to keep the baby, and if so, what was that? If you want to talk about it, Sure.

Allison Shiffler [01:37:30] I. You know, I'm going to be really honest with you. I've had a baby, full term. I've also had an abortion. And to me, it's a gift to have had those two experiences, both of which were completely about my intuition, my intellectual navigation of what I needed to do, being honest with myself about what I wanted to do, and also taking away all the goddamn stigma about what people would think of me if I did either or. I had to let go of that. Like, I had to let go of my family being embarrassed that I'm having a baby by myself. I just had to. Yeah, I had to let go of people saying, what do you think that's all about? Why do you think Allison's having a baby by herself? I had to let go of the judgment, which is really interesting, you know, coming back to this public worthiness thing of being so concerned of what your whole ward sees when they see you.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:29] Yes. This.

Allison Shiffler [01:38:30] So concerned with what people see when they see you.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:32] Yes.

Allison Shiffler [01:38:33] And to actually just. You know, it's like, my daughter saved me. Like, I. I got pregnant and had this realization really soon of, you can do this. Like, of course you can do this. Your body's incredible, and, like, your placenta is this powerhouse of nutrients, and she's doing great, and I have everything I need. And so I deliver this baby in the middle of the grad school program. I breastfed her, which was a really beautiful experience of just bonding and also feeling so powerful, feeling like my body's keeping this baby alive and she's thriving. And she looks up at me and smiles, and, like, it was really positive. It was really, really Beautiful. And also like this plot twist that this can be so good. It's not sad. It's not a sad story. You know, it's not a tragedy that I'm doing this by myself. And it's not a tragedy that the dad isn't involved. You know, like anything that we can get caught up on with regard to other people's perception or how they see you, I mean, that will affect your own perception if you let that, if you let that deepen in your own self esteem and self worth. I had to believe that I could do this program. I had to believe that I am capable of being a really, really good mom. And it's like that was this rebellion against Mormonism. I mean, I really think of it that way of like, my choice in doing this was a total contrast of what I was taught is the right way to do things.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:16] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [01:40:17] Because if you really think about it, all hell breaks loose in Mormonism if women believe that they can do things by themselves and you can, you know, and again, as a disclaimer and as a couples therapist, I love, love, and I love people working on things. And it's an amazing thing. And also coming back to my own life, which is, I didn't know that. I didn't know I could do it by myself. I didn't know I could write those 360 papers and get all A's. I think I got one B. I did amazing. I didn't know I was that smart. I had no idea. I had no idea I was that smart. I had no idea I was that capable. I had no idea that I could do something so unbelievably hard and come out of it being so proud. I mean, before everything was just intimidating or seemingly impossible. And so it's just funny when things don't work out when they go in this completely different direction. And yet it's better, you know, it's better than anything I can imagine.

John Dehlin [01:41:28] I love it. So, you know, you went to Utah with the idea of finding your eternal companion and having the 10 kids, and then you leave Utah without having even gotten married. And, you know, and then all of a sudden you find yourself with the child, not married at all, which is like Mormon nightmare. From the Mormon perspective. What's your faith? What's your conceptualization as you as a Mormon and your faith and your vision for your life as a faithful Mormon? What's it doing by the time you're having this baby?

Faith Crisis, the 2015 LGBT Policy, and Leaving

Allison Shiffler [01:42:04] You know, it's funny, the 2015 policy leak. Is that what we should Call it, you know, children of gay couples can't get baptized. Right. So that came. That came out while I was pregnant.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:23] Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [01:42:24] Okay.

Allison Shiffler [01:42:24] That came out while I was pregnant. And that was it.

John Dehlin [01:42:29] It's where the Mormon Church, just those who don't know, it's where the Mormon Church was so mad that same sex marriage had been legalized across the country, that they said, if you are same sex married and have kids, your kids can't be members, they can't get baptized. They can't, you know, even get baptized until they're 18, and only after they denounce your marriage as illegitimate. And it was automatic apostasy and grounds for excommunication. If you got. Not if you were in a unmarried same sex relationship, the act of getting legally same sex married was immediate grounds for apostasy, which made same sex married Mormons worse than rapists or child abusers in the eyes of Mormons.

Allison Shiffler [01:43:20] Right.

John Dehlin [01:43:21] Because rape and incest was not immediate grounds for excommunication, but same sex marriage, oddly, was. So you didn't like that.

Allison Shiffler [01:43:32] So, you know, and I want to start off as a social worker.

John Dehlin [01:43:35] You didn't like that.

Allison Shiffler [01:43:36] Oh, my goodness.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:38] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [01:43:38] I mean, let's go there, though. So, you know, just to start off, there were a few things in my life that gave me that twinge of, ooh, I don't like this. You know, and maybe that started with me being a child, saying, I don't think I'll get in this celestial canal. I'm sorry, I don't know. But when I was in college, I remember watching a documentary called Jesus Camp, which is about small children feeling, you know, like, the responsibility of the atonement and all these. And I remember watching that and going, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This seems abusive. This seems bad. I remember that. I remember going on a Tinder date in New York describing a disciplinary council to someone who was never Mormon, never religious. And as I'm talking about it, I guess kind of casually, he looks at me and he goes, hold on. You know, that's really messed up, right? Like, are you okay after going through that? And that was a real, like a really profound moment of this man. Really smart, Ivy League educated, but he's just looking at me as a feminist. He's looking at me and saying, that's really messed up that they sat in a half circle and asked you those questions. Like, I just want to make sure you know that that was a really profound moment for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:57] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [01:44:58] And then when this thing happened in 2015, it all just went away in a way that was actually like. Like 500 pounds was lifted.

John Dehlin [01:45:12] What went away?

Allison Shiffler [01:45:13] I just. I didn't believe any of it anymore. Oh, it disappeared.

John Dehlin [01:45:18] It evaporated.

Allison Shiffler [01:45:19] It evaporated.

John Dehlin [01:45:20] Your Mormon beliefs.

Allison Shiffler [01:45:21] This isn't from God. And now I don't really think I have that connection anymore. None of just all went away because it was so political.

John Dehlin [01:45:32] Isn't it weird maybe not weird, maybe totally predictable, that it wasn't the awful feelings you had in your mission, it wasn't the way your dad was treated, it wasn't the way bishops treated you, it wasn't multiple disciplinary councils that made you feel shitty about yourself. None of the bad stuff that happened

Margi Dehlin [01:45:52] to you

John Dehlin [01:45:55] led to you. It led to it all evaporating. It was something you felt, I guess, at the time by proxy for other people that weren't you. And that horrific treatment, that was a problem for you, but not the horrific treatment that you yourself had experienced. I don't know.

Allison Shiffler [01:46:13] I mean, I had a baby with, you know, in terms of conception, right? My baby was conceived through what you can call heterosexual sex, right? And now I'm single and I'm raising and I'm carrying this baby, this pregnancy by myself. But guaranteed they would have blessed her as a baby, obviously, to get the name on the record, but guaranteed they would have blessed her because of the fact that she was conceived by a man and a woman, right? Even though I'm also Hester Prynne, you know, in another area of this whole thing. But we'll bless the baby. Like, we won't punish the baby. We'll bless the baby. You can't go to the temple or anything, but, like, you know, we want that baby's name on the right. There were just so many things about it. And at the same time, my roommate who I met in the mtc, said, oh, I'm done now. I was waiting for you guys to come around, and now I am totally not welcome. So as I'm pregnant, I'm also witnessing his experience as a gay man, you know, born and raised in. Well, raised in Utah, and, you know, having this experience of rejection in 2015. So I'm witnessing this with him, and I'm thinking to myself, so you're pushing him away. And I'm okay, because I, you know, at the time, identify as heterosexual. And that's. And that's why I'm good. Like, that's why I'm okay. Because I am being treated. On one hand, I'm being treated like garbage for my status of being Single and pregnant. And yet there's something so confusing about. But it's hetero. And so my baby's okay. You know, it just. Not only did it not make sense, it just felt gross. You know, my body was screaming with more intuition that I was actually able to access. And I just thought kind of the same thing. I don't have to. I don't have to feel guilt. I don't have to feel bad. I'm just. I'm gonna do this program. I'm gonna have this baby. I am determined to do well. I'm going to. I think I'll do well. But I'm also determined to work hard, and I don't need all this. Like, none of this is really helping me anymore. But in all seriousness, without even ever getting into history at this point, and I eventually did, but without getting into the church history, without getting into too much complexity, all I knew was the policies were created by, frankly, like, white, sexist men. Like, there's no room for us to really value the intellect of women in this church. And so why the hell would I stay here?

Margi Dehlin [01:49:11] Right?

Allison Shiffler [01:49:13] No.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:14] Yeah. All right. I have a question around how you're describing this shift where you go from kind of really caring, being conditioned to care, and really caring about what people think of you. Right. To not. Yeah, because you kind of talked about it. Was it. Was it something that took a lot of time? Was it, like, really a sudden shift? Like a moment of just sort of like. How would you describe that?

Allison Shiffler [01:49:47] You know, I think that was something that maybe in high school kind of started in 11th grade. I remember observing the culture of high school. People wanting to have cool clothes and have cool bags. I was on the swim team. And this one night at a pasta party that we had before, like, regionals or districts or something, all the guys were shaving their head. Their heads. Guys were shaving their heads. And I. I was asked, like, hey, do you want to shave your head, too? Like, we were always trying to get a girl to do it. And I did it in 11th grade. Shaved my head for the swim team. Someone gave me 100 bucks. And I remember coming home that night and, like, playing sims on my computer, and my cat jumps up on my lap. And I had this moment of, like, it's still me. Like, my cat doesn't really care. And so many of my friends were like, wow, this is so cool. And other friends were like, what are you doing? Winter ball is next week. How could you shave your head? And, I mean, it's funny, but that was Like a really early experience where I thought all the stuff that I was taught to think matters kind of doesn't, you know, like material things or just like being pretty all the time or being, you know, presentable in a way that a whole specific, you know, gender or identity of people, the way that men want you to look like, it just, it doesn't matter. I mean, I don't know. That message just became more clear over time that it is soul sucking to be so preoccupied with what people think of you.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:33] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [01:51:34] And so that was something that I think just kind of stayed with me. You know, I'm also a youngest child. I've always just kind of like done what I wanted and been a little bit more wild and rebellious and assertive. But that's something that I'm really, really grateful for that's grown over time, which is, you know, I care about what people think with regard to my community and my people and my best friends. And I care that they know that they're cared for. But I don't care what people think of me. Right. Professionally, I want my clients to have, you know, trust in me and my clinical competence and my education. Right. But, but I don't, I don't care about someone's opinion for my life. I don't ask for it. I don't, you know, I'll consult with friends and people who know me. But I think it's a really crucial part of general wellness, you know, psychological physical wellness, let alone leaving Mormonism, which is you gotta let go of what people think of you and the way you're living your life. I don't know what my homeward is saying about me and I don't care, like, it's not my business. But also, why does that, why would that add any value to my life if. And I was raised Mormon? So I can imagine, like she's covered in tattoos now and I saw that she posted a photo of tattoo with a woman smoking marijuana. And you know, like, there are plenty of things that people can, you know, look at in my life and say, oh, I don't like that. That's not good. And like, that's fine. Like, you, you can, you can believe whatever you want. You can, you can feel however you want about a person's life, but you've got to disconnect from that, otherwise you're not really going to follow your intuition in doing what you want to do. If I cared about what people thought, I would not have raised my child by myself. That would have been too embarrassing. And Hard, you know, if I cared what people thought, I probably wouldn't have. You know, I don't think I would have done anything that I've done in the last eight years of my life, specifically, like, letting go of people's opinions, letting go of what people, you know, think of you. Yeah. It's where you're free. It's where you get to have clarity in knowing what you want.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:02] Yeah, I think that's what I'm noticing about you at this part of the story. And I don't know, you know, but it feels like from the time the bishop kind of gave this. Well, disappointment. Right. I'm handing you now disappointment that there was just some type of. But I want to notice it. Like, I think it's really interesting because I do see you deciding on some level, like, I'm going to choose to have this baby. I want this baby. People are going to have feelings about it. In the end, it's my feelings or I'm willing to deal with that and go with my feelings. And same with kind of this empowerment of. And I'm going to do this program at Columbia, an Ivy League university, with a.

Allison Shiffler [01:54:50] With a baby.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:51] Being pregnant and having a baby. And I just think it's worth noting this point in your life where you do that, because I think for many women in a transition moment, moving away, trying to have a new identity, it can take. So it can take time. It takes time, right, to release opinions, practices, to release what other people think, make enough room that you actually can hear what you think, that you can connect to what you think. And same with even a story you've been told now for years, you're going into.

Allison Shiffler [01:55:24] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:25] Bishop's office, getting assessed, being told, maybe not quite yet, maybe no sacrament quite yet for you, maybe no saying prayers. But you move and shift into empowerment. It's like, yeah, I'm going to do the program. And by the way, I'm pregnant and having a baby, too, you know, And I just think that that is powerful. And I think, you know, sometimes women want the empowerment before the journey, to have that sense before. What I'm hearing for you is like a mixture. Like, you had a sense of, I think I'm gonna go for it. But you also had uncertainty of, like, I don't work really hard, and I'm

Allison Shiffler [01:55:58] really hoping it goes well.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:00] And anyway, it's just a point in your story that I think is it's worth shining a light on. And it's a touch point for the shifts that happened in those moments that Seem to have changed your life.

Allison Shiffler [01:56:14] Yeah. Thank you. Well, and I think you're right in emphasizing these areas of our psychology within Mormon culture. And I guess what I wanna say about that is we're taught that this is like being prideful or being stubborn or self centered. Self centered. Beware of pride. Emma Smith. Right. These moments of being determined, these moments of saying, no, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna apply to this program. I'm gonna do this thing.

John Dehlin [01:56:49] Or autonomous.

Allison Shiffler [01:56:50] Exactly. Just like feeling. And don't get me wrong, like, as you mentioned, some moments of, I don't know how this is gonna go. Like, this might be really hard. What if I have to drop out? I don't know. But also, just quite frankly, it was that emotional and psychological Mormon rebellion where I thought, it's not rocket science, it's a social work program, and I'll figure it out.

John Dehlin [01:57:15] And people have been having babies for a long time.

Allison Shiffler [01:57:17] People have been having babies for a long time. For a long time. And you're like, how hard could it be? And it was hard in terms of energy, it was hard in terms of writing all these papers, but it wasn't anything close to impossible. It wasn't anything close to out of my intellectual realm of what I was capable of doing. And that was, you know, I think that's the best part of my life right now, which is everything that I'm doing, you know, as a mom and as a provider, as a business owner, as a therapist, as someone who, you know, gets to support my family and financially help my mom out. I didn't think I was capable of this. Like, I honestly bought into this very sexist idea that there was an intellectual discrepancy among men and women in what I was capable of doing. And that feels really disgusting to admit, but. But admitting it is important because the contrast is reality. The contrast is, of course I can do this. Like, of course I can. And to be surprised by that, you know, like, what a plot twist in life that, you know, this straight and narrow path, it's so narrow. Just the phrasing that it's. Straight and narrow is where you'll be safe. It's where you get predictability. It's where everything's gonna fall into place.

John Dehlin [01:58:50] It's where the church exactly wants you to go.

Allison Shiffler [01:58:53] Yeah. And it causes a lot of shame and sadness and detriment because of all the people doing everything right. And it still doesn't work out.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:02] That's right.

Allison Shiffler [01:59:02] Right.

John Dehlin [01:59:03] The church wants you to be straight and narrow.

Allison Shiffler [01:59:05] Yeah, Right. Yeah, Sometimes in therapy I give this little metaphor.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:08] Many meanings there, right?

Allison Shiffler [01:59:10] Sometimes I give this little metaphor in my therapy sessions, especially with, you know, faith transitions of. It's not, it's not the straight and narrow anymore. It's kind of like you're on a four wheeler and you're blazing a new trail and there's like a swamp over there and there's like, kind of looks like a, a desert and a bunch of rocks over there. And you're just gonna figure it out. And some places you're gonna say that wasn't the right thing and that's okay, I'm gonna come back and you're figuring it out, which I think for a lot of us is overwhelming and scary. I just want someone to tell me what to do or just want someone to tell me, like, it doesn't work that way, by the way. Someone telling you what to do and guiding you through the guarantee of a patriarchal blessing, like plot twists. It still doesn't work if you choose it. And the reality is, yeah, you can trust yourself and you're not gonna do it alone. Cause nobody does it alone. We need a village. We need friends. We need people who love us. In fact, I mean, I would be absolutely remiss if I did not include the detail of my singles branch in Brooklyn, who threw me a baby shower, a co ed baby shower. And it was like, I don't know, like 38 people with a ton of Amazon gift cards and a ton of baby wipes and a ton of diapers. I mean, I was absolutely in vulnerable circumstances. I'm going to this school, which is incredible and prestigious, but didn't have the money for it by any means. I'm living off of loans. And everybody, everybody showed up. You know, the community really showed up. Moved out here to Utah after I graduated. I had a one year old and it was people who I met in Mormonism who said, hey, you can stay with me until you find a place. You know, it was people I met in the Mormon Church who donated so many baby books and so many clothes and so many things as I'm starting off again very vulnerably as a single mom living off of assistance until I got a job. I mean, it was hard, I was hustling, but I was also taking advantage of any resources I could qualify for while accepting that service, accepting that generosity. And I mean, you know, now I can be on the other side of that of like, you know, helping someone in that circumstance. Because it's not just the Mormon Church's branding or monopolization of community. I mean, we're really incredible at it, but it's primal and it's ancient, and it's inside all of us to need each other. So there were aspects of doing this myself and independently loving myself more, to have the confidence that I could do it. And then there was also the need to rely on people who were rooting for me.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:05] That's right. Yes, I hear that.

Returning to Utah and Rebuilding Identity

John Dehlin [02:02:09] So two questions. Why in the world would you come back to Utah? And how did you process your loss of faith, your reconstruction of identity, spirituality, community? Like, for a lot of people, that takes a lifetime, at least three, five, ten years just to, like, unwire the Mormon stuff, rewire a new existence, heal from trauma. So why Utah and how. I'm assuming you've processed your Mormon stuff, but if you have, how did you do that and when?

Allison Shiffler [02:02:46] Yeah, so a few things with coming back to Utah at the time that I was living in New York with my baby. So graduated from my program, had my baby, and I was planning on staying there. I was very scared, but I was planning on staying there under the, you know, circumstances of the roommates that I was living with. And that was a gay couple, two men, they actually broke up while I was living with them. So they were going to go their separate ways. And I thought to myself, I don't know, I didn't think too long and hard about it. I just thought this might be really overwhelming to try to get a studio. This might be really overwhelming to try to do this by myself in terms of, you know, a living circumstance. And because I had spent so much time in Utah and I had so many different jobs in the field of social work, I was very well connected. And so Utah, for me was, you know, a decade of singles words. That's a lot of people you meet. Right. So I was just very, socially speaking, very well connected here, knew a lot of people in different areas of social work. And I just felt that as a new mom who was a year in, it was a good thing for me to have a start with a big community foundation. So that was kind of an easy choice. And it was great. Lots of friends helping out, like I said, living with people before I got my apartment.

John Dehlin [02:04:12] It's also cheaper here.

Allison Shiffler [02:04:13] Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. So it just felt like, you know, the most secure choice. And it turned out to be great. Got a great job, got licensed here, clinically licensed here, Everything worked out. And as far as faith deconstruction, you know, navigating values, navigating beliefs, areas of existence, life, death, et cetera. I don't even know how to summarize it, but it feels really good and it feels really secure.

John Dehlin [02:04:48] How did you work through the hard stuff and the CPTSD or whatever? You probably experienced what resources or experiences were helpful in you?

Allison Shiffler [02:04:59] Yeah, I mean, first I wanna talk a little bit about, I guess, the nail. The nail in the coffin. For me, belief wise, was 2015. Right? Just policy wise. I thought, this is all. It just evaporated. None of it felt real anymore. When I stopped going to church completely, and maybe more specifically when I removed my name was after I heard the interview with the woman who was a survivor of Joseph l. Bishop.

John Dehlin [02:05:32] Oh, McKenna Denson. McKenna Denson.

Allison Shiffler [02:05:34] McKenna Denson. I was listening to the recording of her interview. You know, my daughter's, like, maybe 16 months at the time. And that was when I just decided, I don't want any part in this whatsoever. I don't want them to be able to contact my kid. I don't want them to be able to contact me.

John Dehlin [02:05:51] And for those who don't know the story, what was it about the story that was so disturbing to you?

Allison Shiffler [02:05:55] So McKenna Denson is, you know, confronting Joseph L. Bishop, although this is toward the end, regarding his assaultive behavior as an MTC president in Provo.

John Dehlin [02:06:09] Over missionaries.

Allison Shiffler [02:06:10] Over missionaries.

John Dehlin [02:06:11] Kind of sister zeros in on a vulnerable sister missionary.

Allison Shiffler [02:06:16] He also provides the historical context of his assaultive and predatory behavior as a bishop. And the thing that I got from that interview was that leadership knew. Mormon leadership, knew what type of man this was, knew that he's a predator, knew that he has a problem, is how they summarize it in giving him more callings with more leadership and more people to be in close proximity to him. He's a sexual predator. I mean, that's it. Right? Like, the summary of his problem is he's a sexual predator. He identifies who is an easy victim. He identifies who he can groom and whether it was his calling as a bishop, whether it was his calling as an MTC president. He's the one that provides the details regarding leadership, moving him around, you know, in different areas of responsibility to kind of, like, cover up the damage he has done. And that's just called organized sex abuse. That's what that is.

John Dehlin [02:07:31] So systemic, unfortunately.

Allison Shiffler [02:07:32] Systemic, exactly. Right. The first presidency, specifically, they know who mission presidents are. Mission presidents, MTC presidents. Right. These are all callings that go through the first presidency. And for them to know about him being a sexual predator and saying, like, this will make it right. It hit me in a way that nothing else had hit me as hard. I think I'd maybe compartmentalized areas of the Catholic Church and thought that was different, and it's not. So I'm a mom. I'm here to protect my kid. I also happen to be a mandated reporter. No, absolutely not. This is absolutely ridiculous. And while I don't need to shout this from the rooftops to everyone I love who's in the church, I want to protect my kid. And there's a lot of risks out there. As a social worker, you work very close with the effects of predatory behavior or predators, period. No, absolutely not. This was, like, one of the safest things I could do for my kid. This is one of the most protective decisions I could make as a mom, is mom's name is off the record, and her name was never on there. So, you know, just got out of there. Shortly after that happened, after I removed my name after listening to. To that interview, my dad died. And it was really sudden, and it was really unexpected, and there's a lot of complexity to it. He died from his medication. Collapsed in a gas station parking lot while getting cigarettes one day, went into anaphylactic shock. It was totally the fault of a doctor, although we've never really navigated, you know, justice with that scenario. But it was really, really, really, really hard, obviously. But it was awful to have had the majority of my relationship with my dad actually being really negative, and there's a lot to say there. He was a really protective dad. I don't think he was very respectful to my mom, and that's maybe what I looked at the most as a kid. So I didn't like my dad. I really didn't like him.

Grieving Her Father and Letting Go of Others' Judgments

John Dehlin [02:09:52] Growing up, did he feel like you saw him as a disappointment or as lesser than because he wasn't an active, faithful member?

Allison Shiffler [02:09:59] Yeah, I mean, I think that hurt him. I think, you know, that was hard for him, that I really held that against him. You know, in addition to other variables that he was undiagnosed bipolar and, you know, so manic episodes led to a lot of extreme spending and a lot of fights with my parents. You know, like, there were. There were a lot of things that are kind of intermingled in his life and how I saw him. But, you know, actually, after I had my daughter, my dad and I became pretty close. So when he died, there's, like, this much gratitude that I got two good years with him, and then there's just so much sadness and so much grief that, like, this is it. Like I'm, oh my goodness. I'm in my early 30s and I have an almost 2 year old and my dad's dead. And now I don't believe in this plan of salvation. I don't believe in all these things that previously felt so secure. Or did they? I mean, they really didn't actually, but like all these things that kind of gave the narrative of. And this is what happens. So, you know, his funeral at the time was really, really, really difficult because it was still all about the plan of Sal.

John Dehlin [02:11:17] The funeral service.

Allison Shiffler [02:11:18] Yeah, the funeral service for my dad in an LDS church, you know, beloved by the ward, beloved by the stake, etc.

John Dehlin [02:11:24] Even though he wasn't a member.

Allison Shiffler [02:11:26] Not a member.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:27] That's really interesting.

Allison Shiffler [02:11:28] And that's like, you know, my childhood pain of like, we're not sealed. Right. And it could have been a funeral service all about him. I mean, he was hilarious. He was like a TV character, like just one of the funniest, loudest, ridiculous people in the world. And I miss him so much. And I wish we could have honored his life at that funeral as opposed to, you know, a 25 minute talk about the plan of salvation and how it works.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:58] Right.

Allison Shiffler [02:11:58] And that, you know, that just felt really awful. So the reason I'm mentioning my dad's death in this, you know, trajectory of my beliefs and my spirituality, et cetera, is that was a really pivotal point for me. You know, I mean, grief is just so awful to go through. Most of us are uncomfortable with it and don't know how to talk to people about it. But at the same time, I'm having a total faith crisis and I don't know what I believe and I don't know where he is and I don't know what exists and I don't know how this all works. And it was really, really disorienting, especially when it comes to bless their hearts, Mormon individuals trying to make things better by saying awful things, like, I know you don't believe this, but, you know, he's in the spirit world waiting for you or, you know, or whatever, or just like, I know you don't believe this, but, you know, and that's a hard thing to say to someone who's going, going into this difficult direction of navigating grief, navigating this awful, awful loss while in this total like faith and existential crisis of I just don't know what I believe. But you know, it's taken, it's taken a lot of time and therapy and reading and a Lot of great experiences to get to this point, which is, you know, on one hand, grief, death is a part of life, right? Like, we grieve forever. There is no crying enough tears and punching, you know, a grief card of, like, okay, it's forever. You know, Like, I notice that if I haven't cried over my dad for a while, there's gonna be a big cry coming up. So I can do it intentionally and listen to my dead dad playlist with Al Green and Kenny Loggins. And you know what? Like, I can get into it and remember him and miss him and, like, really be intentional about it. Or. Or I can, like, suppress it and just wait for it to, like, break open one day, which is okay, too. But either way, like, it's with me forever. And, you know, anytime anyone's ever asked me, like, what do you believe now? I sometimes say, and this is both a joke, but real. Like, have you seen the movie Interstellar? You know, like, that's it, I think. You know, Ethan Hawke said something in an interview I think is really beautiful where he said, I don't think we can comprehend our existence any more than a dog can. And when you watch that movie Interstellar, you're just like, whoa, quantum physics. Multiple realities, right? Like, multiple areas of time and space. And I'm by no means making any efforts to try to understand that more. But that's actually more comforting to me to believe in or hope in this idea that nothing is ever really destroyed, Matter isn't created or destroyed. Everything is just kind of endless and timeless. And when I choose to remember my dad, when I choose to grieve, I can feel connectivity to him. And it doesn't have to be this depressing atheist nail in the coffin of that's it. Because on one hand, that's a little egocentric to think that my conscious reality is a beginning and an end. You know, I don't know. I just. I embrace the overwhelm. I embrace the confusion. I embrace the fact that none of us know and none of us can actually explain all of it. But it also takes away so much fear and it takes away so much pressure. If I'm existing in 15 trillion realities right now, and this is the one I'm conscious of, and this is the life where I was raised Mormon, and this is the life where I became a single mom and a therapist and got knocked up and went to grad school, I'm good with this one. It's pretty good so far, and I'm excited for whatever else is in the future. I hope I'm an old lady on a beach house with, like, seven cats. One day we'll see. But I no longer think that there's any comfort in this, like, rigid, black and white, straight and narrow thinking. Not to imply that I have all the answers. Not to imply that. I know, right? Like, we say that for a Sunday of every month. I know. Like, we have to really give everybody the reassurance of, you have to know. And that's just bullshit. Like, when is that ever true that you have to know everything or that you can't, Right? So, yeah, I don't know. One of my favorite books in the whole entire world is the Midnight Library by Matt Haig. This idea of visiting these different realities, leaving the one you're conscious of and depressed about, and it's not going the way you want. And this idea that having a life is a really beautiful thing. I love that book so much. A book that was very, very pinnacle in helping me with my faith crisis specifically was A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle. And the reason that helped me specifically was I was pregnant at the time. And it really hit me, speaking of letting go of other people's thoughts, this idea of, is it really bad? Taking this polarized thinking, is it bad or is it good? Like, other people can look at me and my pregnant body and my single status, and they can say, oh, I just feel so bad for her. Or, you know, they could be embarrassed. Or they could say, like, oh, you know, and what if I don't feel that way? Like, what if it's not bad? In fact, that's something that my dad said to me when I told my parents I was pregnant, which was one of the scariest moments of my whole entire life. Telling them, like, hey, remember how I told you I was going to an Ivy League school? Still proud of me? Okay. Also, I'm pregnant and I'm single, and I'm keeping the baby, and I'm going to do this. I understand if you're upset, you know,

John Dehlin [02:18:24] Papa Don't Preach.

Allison Shiffler [02:18:26] Seriously. The funny thing was, I did not expect this from my dad at all. I thought he would be so upset. I thought he would be so disappointed. I thought he would be angry. And he said something that was really beautiful. He said, you know, what if this is a really great thing? Like, I've been wanting you to get married. I've just been hoping that you would find the right guy. But what if this is the right path? Like, what if this is it? And I'm thinking to myself, yeah, exactly. But that was really helpful and really beautiful for him to show me this more open minded way of thinking about it.

John Dehlin [02:19:08] Like, also said, no Mormon dad ever, right?

Allison Shiffler [02:19:11] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:19:12] Probably. Maybe.

Allison Shiffler [02:19:13] Yeah. Well, and going back to that book, A New Earth, that was kind of what I got from that of like, what if it just is, right? Like, what if this is your life and every life is a really complicated, beautiful, messy story? And what if you can change the way you feel about it by just saying, like, yeah, this is it, this is what I'm doing. Yeah. And that felt good. Not just relieving it, just like it felt right, you know, so just, you know, taking away the polarity, taking away this problematically linear way of thinking, even when it comes to mental health. I mean, don't be offended by this to the lovely listeners, but it's a little funny to me when, when people talk about aspects of healing as if they've like solved something with a period

Margi Dehlin [02:20:06] with a pd, like, it's glad I worked through that. Now I'm healing.

Allison Shiffler [02:20:11] I worked through that. I've done a lot of healing. Like, I could go off. And I mean, on one hand, like, that can be true for a lot of us, right? And then also understanding life keeps going, right? And not to get real dark, but like, more people in your life are gonna die, more stuff is going to happen. But I do not believe that life is just about pain. I think pain organically happens. And I also think that suffering is a choice. There's a really great book called Existential Kink by Carolyn Elliott where she really emphasizes that pain happens. Pain is a part of life. Working through things, leaving toxic things, learning to love ourselves throughout this whole process. But understanding that suffering is a choice. The pain's not gonna stop. Like, we'll still be met with a lot of hard things, but we're gonna navigate it. Like, that's the idea that we get better at coping, we get better at grounding, we get better at calling a friend and saying, I really need help. Is there any way you can help me? You know, like this weekend with my kids or like, we learn what the resources are in terms of getting us through hard moments as opposed to, I've figured it out, right? It's gonna, you know, this, this is kind of why, from a, you know, business model perspective, their therapy is not a bad business to go into. You know, when I was in grad school, we were taught what I believe is problematic in that, you know, you should be able to have like 12 sessions, you know, a few Months with somebody, and that gives them all the skill. And that's. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, that you can go to a few sessions of therapy and then you're set for life. I mean, I can't tell you how many times a client has come back because something awful happened in their life, and they got to talk about it and they got to process it. And I hope this isn't depressing or ominous or negative for anyone. When I say pain is going to continue to happen. And also, if that's a really triggering thing to hear, I think that just speaks to how you're seeing life right now. But we get better at it. We get better at managing the pain. We get better at managing the symptoms. I think a really great analogy in literal circumstance, frankly, is for a lot of us women or uterus owners who have menstrual cycles, a lot of us go through this in our young 20s, and it's like, I'm gonna break up with them. I'm gonna quit this job. I'm gonna send this text. I'm not okay. And I'm. And then we stop and go, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. What week is it? Okay, I'm gonna rest. I think I need to take a nap. I think I need to eat some lasagna. I think, like, I know what's happening. I know what's happening with my body. It does not mean I'm crazy. It just means a lot of things are amplified right now, and I need to learn how to care for myself. I really think menstrual cycles are, like, a beautiful way of learning coping skills, because getting more in tune with our state of mind, getting more in tune with. Okay, my depression is, like, really coming up this week, or, like, a lot of triggers from my ex are happening right now, or, you know, for us to kind of sit with it and say, there's nothing wrong with me and what do I need?

Margi Dehlin [02:23:34] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [02:23:34] You know, like, healing is a really cool thing. It just means we get better and better and better at taking care of ourselves.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:40] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [02:23:41] Beautiful.

Grief, Faith Transition, and Questioning Sexuality

Margi Dehlin [02:23:44] Something that I was noticing. I think for many people going through a faith transition, a death.

Allison Shiffler [02:23:52] Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:52] Becomes a fear. It can be a fear for people. And I was thinking about how it kind of. It was an overlay. Right. You were actually transitioning and had experienced a death. How would you talk about. I feel like a number of fears in some ways come up in your story where you have faced something that at some point you were taught to fear.

Allison Shiffler [02:24:19] Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:21] How would you talk about what happens, what has happened for you, largely when you have faced a fear. You can take the loss of your dad or facing a death of someone and who you've met on the other side of that.

Allison Shiffler [02:24:40] You know, I think the funny thing about those fears or about those circumstances, again, going back to the. It's not that black and white. It's not that simple. Life is very complex. You know, on one hand, going back to my dad's death, I miss him. And it is a hole in my heart. And it is something I will always come back to with a lot of sadness and on some days, anger, you know, and on some days, gratitude. And, like, it's very complicated. But it would be so incorrect for me to say, I just wish it never happened because my life changed after that. Like, I see life differently. Like, I appreciate life more. That was the first time in my life that someone close to me died. Someone in my recent text messages, someone in my FaceTime from two days ago, that was just absolutely life changing. And to realize that, like, it can just all be over is, I think, a really crucial point of our learning. For us to look inward, for us to think about life, for us to appreciate our life. You know, on one hand, my dad's death makes me a better mom. All this stuff maybe sounds weird to say unless you get it, and then it doesn't sound weird at all. But, you know, the paradox or the combination of these conflicting truths that the tragedy we are so afraid of can also turn into this incredible pinnacle point of learning and figuring out who we are.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:27] Right?

Allison Shiffler [02:26:28] And so I think, you know, when it comes to the people I've met along the way, I think some of the most important people in my life are coincidentally, women who have left Mormonism and women who can relate on these areas of, you know, patriarchy and doubting themselves. You know, those have been people in my life who have just been cheering me on. Here for the conversations. Here for the conversations about parent death. Here for the conversations about any of it. I just, you know, I'm reading this book that my therapist asked me to read, and now I'm. Without finishing it, I'm hypocritically asking some of my clients to read it. But it's called How We Show Up. I believe the author's name is Mia. I think Birdsong is her last name. How We Show Up. And it's all about community. And so, you know, in navigating these fears and these scary moments and the. How am I going to do this? I mean, we actually can't do it alone. We need people. We need community. And I think for those of us in Utah, that is actually a really beautiful thing to have hope in, which is that you can find your people. You can find people who are there for you. These are women in my life who have helped me build the confidence that I can start my business, that have helped me see things clearly when I needed to leave a relationship that was so, so, so awful and abusive. Women in my life who have said, hey, I'm gonna bring you dinner and I'm gonna take your kid for the night. I know that you're going through an abortion and you're going through that tonight. Like, you know, just. That's how we do it. We can do it alone, but we're not okay. You know, the way that we get through these things and we get through them healthily and we get through these really difficult areas of, you know, fear and turmoil is we accept the love that we know people deserve. And so I would say community. The reason I mentioned that book specifically is, you know, when you read about it and you believe in it and you recognize how it hits with your value system, you're probably going to have the natural repercussion of manifesting it. And manifesting is neurological. It's not just specific to going into the woods and, you know, talking to crystals or anything. I don't mean to be an asshole about that. What I mean is, like, I think sometimes we take the phrase manifestation or manifesting, and to some degree, some of us roll our eyes, but this is about our neurology, which is your perception, your belief is going to affect what happens in your life. So I'm reading this book and I'm thinking about, like, how I need more community in my life, need more people. And I'm envisioning it and I'm hoping for it. And then these amazing plot twists happen. I met a woman in my building, like, a few weeks ago who's a single mom, and we swap our kids every now and then to go have some alone time or to go on a date or to go do nothing or to go work. And it's great. And of course it's great. That's how we're designed. We're not designed to be this separate. We're not designed to be this isolated. We're not designed to be alone with our kids all day. Like, of course that drives us insane, right? We need help and we need community. We need people. So I think in terms of who I met along the way a lot of those people used to be Mormons. So we're used to it. We're used to this idea of showing up for each other because that's a really beautiful thing that the church teaches us to do, which is to be cognizant of each other's needs. I mean, after my dad died and my mom, you know, is really, really loved by her homeward, we had meals three times a day for two weeks. I mean, just completely taken care of in the way that every single human on the planet should have. Nobody should have to cook during those weeks of planning and attending a funeral. Nobody should have to think about anything. I don't care if you have religion or no religion or whatever. We need it. We need to have people close to us, not only in proximity, but just emotionally checking on us. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:10] Do you. I've noticed that in the ex Mormon community, specifically for women there, there, it is very common for ex Mormon women to sometimes question and, or explore their sexuality. Do you want to talk about the. You self disclosed as having a bisexual identity? Do you want to talk about that at all? That process for you? Yeah. Just in the context of how it may be useful for other women. Yeah, or men.

Allison Shiffler [02:31:41] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's important to go into like any gender, any identity because like the fact is, is when we have a culture that predominantly presents heterosexual relationships, we are given the assignment assumption that that's the majority, that's the norm, that's the standard. And through capitalism specifically, like, that's part of success, you know, like any other way of living, you know, could be risky or it could be wrong, or, you know, however it's taught to us. I mean, I guess it was just something that I never necessarily considered. I just assumed I'm a heterosexual woman default and that's it. Kind of like I assumed I wanted to be a stay at home mom with 10 kids. That was also a default for me. Wasn't true. Also wasn't true that I'm heterosexual. And I mean, to be completely, you know, candid about that, I had had a few sexual experiences with women while living in New York. And I mean, consensual, positive, great, but still in my mind thinking that was just having fun. I'm hetero though. And it actually took, you know, a partner of mine, a male partner who referred to me as being bi and I kind of said, what? What are you talking about? This is probably like 2019. And I'd had many sexual experiences with women at that point, many more with men, but enough to know that it was positive, it was consensual. I enjoyed it. And my partner, my male partner at the time, said, Allison, I you like men, you like women, you're bisexual, like you. That it's okay. Like, there's nothing wrong with that. And I knew there was nothing wrong with that. Clinical, you know, clinical license and a master's degree in social work. Like, I know there's nothing wrong with it, but that cognitive dissonance was still there, that I didn't even see it. So it's funny. It doesn't matter what level of education you have. It doesn't matter. The irony of that moment where you realize something about yourself that's hard to see. It's because of conditioning. It's because of the way you're raised and this cognitive dissonance effect that can have on you in not even considering something so obvious. I mean, even, like, as a kid or as a teenager, I can look back on crushes on boys and girls or crushes on boy and girl. Celebrity, man, woman, celebrity, whatever. The evidence is there. I mean, the data was there, but it was just kind of hard for me to connect with, because what if that's disappointing to my family? I mean, I think that's what's under there. I think that's why that was hard for me to be honest about it. And so, yeah, if you grow up hypothetically in a society where you're just taught, like, hey, you can like who you like, and the only thing that really matters is, like, loving yourself and being safe and understanding consent and, like, all these really basic principles of, you know, education. Who knows what this world would look like? Because I really, really, really believe that the combination of, you must be heterosexual, you must be a hetero woman, you must be a hetero man, that in and of itself creates a huge wall for people to safely explore, let alone just consider what they may like in terms of, you know, in terms of sex, but also in terms of, like, the relationship they want to be in, if they want to be in one. So.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:34] Or gender.

Allison Shiffler [02:35:35] Exactly, exactly. And so I just think that is a really big pain. You know, when we talk about patriarchy, when we talk about areas of, you know, sexism, whether it is, you know, domestic violence or whether it is rape or, you know, any of these areas of how just, you know, women, children, et cetera can be hurt, I really, really believe, and this is a theory that I'm sure many of us share, that one of the pains of patriarchy is also, frankly, Violence projected by the inner hatred or inner repression of men who do not get to freely navigate their sexuality. I mean, Silence of the Lambs is one of my favorite movies for a lot of reasons, but one of them is, you know, a serial killer who internally wants to be and wants to identify and live as a woman. And he can't. So he murders them or kidnaps them or, you know, projects his inner hatred on existing women who, you know, he later kills and, you know, uses his clothing, et cetera. Sorry if I'm ruining the whole thing. And what do you know, it's like this incredible competent woman who figures out the whole entire thing. It's just one of the best movies in the world. Great book, right? Love it. But I also think that, you know, that metaphor or allegory is really relevant to our society when it comes to comes to the unspoken pain of men. Whether we are talking about childhood sexual abuse, whether we are talking about rape, whether we are talking about the inner hatred of feeling gross or feeling shame about what they desire. And I'm not talking about unhealthy things. I'm talking about the consideration of being bisexual or being trans or being gay, being homosexual, you know, like whatever that is. There is so much reinforcement of don't be that. And instead, you know, use women as the COVID up or the shield or the beard or whatever, their mental health be damned. You know, like they get to be a casualty on this planet as you get to use them as your, you know, utility of what you have to uphold. And that's a complicated discussion because if we're talking about the trauma that men experience who are conditioned in society to not talk about it, to not be open about it. You know, I recently watched the documentary Leave no Trace about the organized sex abuse in the Boy Scouts. And you know, there's a problem with the social media backlash of hating all men. And you know, on one hand, I want to make space for anybody's emotional reaction to the frustration of patriarchy. Of course, I think that documentary really places a crucial highlight of pain in areas of pain that are evenly distributed. I think that child sex abuse is a very, very, very, very common thing that happens to all people, regardless of how they identify or, you know, how they're sex assigned at birth. It's just unfortunately a very common trauma. And when we look at the way that boys and girls grow up, however, boys are given a lot of incentive and pressure to not disclose vulnerability, especially when it's really horrific pain. And so what happens when you bury that you Know what happens when you bury that pain? Or, you know, if we're not talking about sexual trauma, which can both be full of, like, shame and discomfort and embarrassment, or if we're talking about navigating sexuality, you know, maybe wanting to navigate, like, a healthy sexual dynamic as a man with another man. And if that is predominantly talked about as gross or perverted or disgusting, or you don't know that any of your male friends will stay in your life if you say that out loud, that can lead to the repercussions of a lot of projected pain. And maybe that looks like violence or maybe it looks like control. Maybe it looks like domestic violence. You know, I just. I think that the idea of navigating our sexuality just needs to be the most acceptable, neutral thing in the world, because I think the repercussions are really horrific when we. When we repress something that should just be normal.

John Dehlin [02:40:47] Yeah, infidelity, too.

Allison Shiffler [02:40:50] Absolutely. I mean, you know, there are so many symptoms of repression, so many symptoms. And I just. It doesn't have to be that way. You know, if. If you're unhappy in a relationship or a marriage, there's a way to navigate that. There's a way to see what is sustainable. There's a way to see if we need to, like, peacefully uncouple. Like, I think the repercussions of what we do to just further cover it up is where we just create more pain. So, yeah, sexual exploration, you know, with safety and with the assurance of, you know, consent and all of those things, it can be so great. It can be so wonderful. And, yeah, let's go back to that funny thought that we believe the default is most of us are straight. Not enough information to assume that whatsoever with the idea of being closeted as something that is now a growing number of people saying, oh, now I'm navigating this. You know, I think Tilda Swinton said something really beautiful about the fluidity of gender and sexuality, which is, you know, it's continuous. Like, I don't know. Today I identify as bi. I don't know what my life is like in 10 years. I just know that when navigating areas of relationships, dating, et cetera, like, interested in men, interested women, and that just feels right for now. Like, we'll see. But it's really great to not feel any pressure or, you know, need for that to be problematic or embarrassing.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:28] Right.

Allison Shiffler [02:42:29] And it's easier said than done. I get that. Not everybody has the quick reassurance of, my friends will still love me, my family will still talk to me. You know, it can be a really lonely and brave but horrific experience for people in identifying what is true for them.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:46] That's right. Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [02:42:47] And I also want to say I don't think the other option is an option. I just think truth is. Truth is truth. And so acknowledging your truth and having the hope and the faith and the belief that things will work out, we all need to find our people. We all need to find our support system. We all need to find what it looks like to live a happy life. But it just. It doesn't work to bury it. It doesn't work to push it down. It just doesn't.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:17] Yeah. Yeah. I was wondering if you wanted to share any insights or thoughts on parenting.

Parenting After Mormonism and Raising a Daughter

Allison Shiffler [02:43:30] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:30] Yeah. Especially, you know, outside a conditioned paradigm.

Allison Shiffler [02:43:35] Yeah. You know, it's funny. My daughter said to me a few months ago, might have been sometime last year, she asked me if I believe in God. And I said, no, I don't. She goes, oh, well, I believe in God. I said, okay, that's fine. She goes, why don't you? I said, we can believe different things. It's okay. You can believe in God. I used to believe in God. I used to pray to God all the time, but I don't anymore. Well, why don't you? Well, it just doesn't feel right anymore. But again, you can believe what you want. That's a really cool thing about people. A lot of us believe different things, and we do different things and we wear different things, and we're all different, and that's okay. And, you know, it was this funny moment in my conscious parenting where I'm like, okay, I'm glad. I'm. I'm happy with where I took that. I'm happy with that. As opposed to the rigidity of, like, this is an atheist family, and we believe in quantum physics of interstellar, and everything matters, but nothing matters, and there's no one person. That's ridiculous, right? Like, yeah, what?

John Dehlin [02:44:45] The new orthodoxy, right?

Allison Shiffler [02:44:46] The. The new. The new orthodoxy of, like, not in this family. This is what we believe. So that. That's something I'm really grateful for, which is being raised in Mormonism. And Mormonism very unintentionally taught me how to be a parent by teaching me how to not be a parent. You know, like, not that I literally believe in God or this is a possibility, but if a leader or higher being or anyone said, you know, in order to do the right thing and obey me, you need to kill your daughter. Nope. Like, absolutely not. I think the Isaac Abraham story parable is one of the loudest examples to me of what Mormonism can potentially teach parents to their detriment. And that's not. That's not what I'm gonna do. Yeah, I want. I want my kid to trust me. I want her to feel safe. I. You know, there will be plenty of moments where I need to, you know, put my foot down and show concern or say no or, you know, whatever, and that's fine. But I want her to know that, like, her safety is my concern.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:03] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [02:46:03] And her wellness, like that. That's the most important thing.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:07] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [02:46:08] So, yeah, you can believe in God. You can. Whatever. Like, any. Any things that you want to explore in terms of your identity and figuring out who you are, it's fine. That stuff is fine. But I just. I need to make sure that I have a closeness with her so that she knows that her safety, her life, like, that's why I'm here. I'm here to be her mom.

John Dehlin [02:46:34] Right.

Allison Shiffler [02:46:35] And of course, like, I hope that there's also, you know, friendship and trust and all these beautiful things, but I think that Mormonism has the repercussion of cold, authoritarian parenting. I know that's not true for everybody, but, I mean, I have to say in my clinical practice, specifically in working with couples and with individuals, it is a very common scenario to take a pretty long time healing based on the Isaac Abraham type of Mormon parents that you have, for them to think or even say things like, you know, I'd rather you have a terminal illness than leave the church. Or, you know, like, just that whole sentiment, which is absolutely disgusting. You know, like, we need a driver's license to go adopt a dog. But, like, anybody can just create life and say that to their kids, which. Not that I'm implying any intervention on that, but, like, that's. That's. That's the high stakes of parenting. You're developing a person's psyche. You know, the way that you talk to them, the way that you make them feel in their own home will absolutely affect them in their future relationships. It just will. And so I just. I think my main direction with my daughter is just, you know, attachment. If I have her, trust and respect is important too. You know, like, she's gotta listen to me. I'm a single mom. I'm working a lot. I just, like, there are moments where she's had to, like, come with me in meetings, and it's like. Or, you know, I'm working from home today. Daycare is closed. I'm in Here, doing my sessions. You only knock on the door if something's on fire, you know, like, I need areas of her own understanding, her empathy, her respect, et cetera. And now that she's getting older, that's, you know, obviously a lot easier to do. But my main priority is our attachment, like her feeling safe with me. That's the most important thing I think, that matters, you know.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:47] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [02:48:47] Because she's going to be whoever she's going to be, you know, and kids are going to become who they want to become. Maybe as a repercussion or like a rebellious point that also may happen. Or, or they're going to do it as they navigate what feels right for them and they check in with you throughout adulthood and say, I don't know about this job. Can I, like, can I talk to you about it? Like, what a beautiful thing to have a child. And also, like, really affirm their independence because again, she's a child for the minority of her life. The rest of it is adulthood and hoping that I gave her the tools and the self love and the confidence and the resilience and to be able to navigate these things. I mean, I'm a phone call away and like, you know, but I want you to figure out the rest. That's kind of my biggest goal with parenting, is that I want to raise a resilient kid who can, you know, figure this stuff out. And some of that, you know, I'll attribute to my parents. But some of that was frankly what I had to figure out for myself. Of like, yeah, I can move to New York. I think I can do this. I got enough saved. Yeah, I think I'll be fine. Okay, I'll try this job. I'll try this job. Yeah. You know, like, I just, I tried a lot of things with the mentality of, like, I'll figure it out. I mean, if I can't afford New York, I guess I'll move, but I have a lot of savings. I think I'll be good. I just. I just want my daughter to be smart and confident and to know that she has community helping her, but to also, like, really trust herself. And without Mormonism in her life, without this power dynamic of needing to be good enough or worthy. I mean, we're already off to a great start. She's still talking very actively about what she wants to do when she grows up and whatever that is, I'm here for it. As long as you're happy, as long as you feel good about it, like, what a cool direction. As opposed To I need you to turn out this way. And it's not that. It's just I've got to do this work in nurturing you so that you feel safe. If you feel safe, if you feel competent, if you realize you can, like, do these things, you're totally capable.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:04] Yeah.

Allison Shiffler [02:51:05] You know, you're gonna have a more resilient kid who is more in touch with their intuition, you know, who tries things and actually finds fulfillment. I don't have any, you know, regret necessarily, about my timeline, but I didn't go to grad school until I was 29 years old, because throughout my whole 20s, I was waiting to get married. You know, I was actually given the words, you know, honey, you go to college. This is when I was in high school. You go to college because what if your husband dies? I mean, right. Which is funny, because sometimes when I'm down in Provo and I'm wearing a Columbia sweatshirt, I've gotten the occasional question of. Of, did your husband go to Columbia? And I'm like, oh, no, no, he didn't. But anyway, yeah, so that's. You know, a lot of this was presented to me as, like, insurance plans. And this. You know, you still want to get married in the temple. You still want to be dependent on a man. You still, like, get a job just in case, make sure you have skills as opposed to the enthusiasm of, like, drink life up. Like, figure out what you want, figure out what feels good. One of my biggest regrets, and I don't regret a lot, but I really regret not going to Italy with UVSC for their study abroad. It was for a humanities thing. And I just kept thinking, what if I miss meeting my husband? What if he's, like, at a singles ward activity and he's there and I miss him? Cause I want. And it's like, oh, so that's one of my goals for my daughter. Of, like, hey, you're young. Travel, take out some college loans, Go see the world. Just, like, go do these things. But, yeah, there was a lot I held back on, because in my 20s, I was just like, I just got to get married, and I'm getting this education just in case, but I just got to get married. So anyway, yeah, going back to parenting, just. I'm excited to be a girl mom and raising a girl to, like, just think consciously about what she wants in her life, because I think that's what the church was missing the whole time.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:24] Yeah, absolutely. I think my final question that I'm curious about is just, what would you say when you're thinking about your past, the past self, early twenties, mission and all that you've been told and you've been conditioned to think at that point. What surprises you most about the life you're living now when you think of her and how she would have all that she was being told about the world, about life. Like what surprises you most in thinking of her and what she was told?

Reflections on Her Younger Self and Personal Growth

Allison Shiffler [02:54:03] You know, I mean, she had absolutely no idea how smart she was, how capable she was. You know, like, I think that that's the main thing. If my, if my 21 year old self could visit my 38 year old self and I'm still young, I got a lot of life to live. I'm excited for the rest. This is young adulthood and I define that and acknowledge that. I really gotta make a moment to say it's problematic that we think 20s is like the pinnacle of existence because like, yeah, I would never go back to my 20s even if you gave me $2 million. Like, I just, you know, it just gets better with more wisdom, with more time, with more identity. But that 21 year old woman, that, that young girl, but woman, I think she would just be so surprised and relieved and I just don't think she'd believe it. I think it would be hard to believe maybe just visually of like, wait, what we like tattoos now? What? But if she could just kind of get a total download of everything, like, oh, I grow up and I keep going and I raise a baby by myself and I become a therapist and I go to a really, really, really, really challenging Ivy League advanced clinical practice program and social work and I kill it. I do really well at it and eventually find, I would say one of the other points is like this group of women, group of friends in my life who are family, who are there, who are nurturing and it's like I didn't know first of all that everything will be okay and everything will work out. I think I just mentioned leave the church. Oh, and leave the church. Oh, and also you're not wearing garments anymore. And also. Yeah, you don't like really believe like any of that whatsoever.

John Dehlin [02:56:06] Sorry, I didn't mean to derail you.

Allison Shiffler [02:56:08] Yeah. And I.

John Dehlin [02:56:08] This is Mormon stories.

Allison Shiffler [02:56:09] Well, and just, and I feel, I know that there's this whole juxtaposition of like how I'm stuttering on my words right now because this is the way I was raised. But I didn't know I'd be successful. I didn't know I would do this. Well, and it's not, you know, it's not just manna from heaven. I mean, I'm working really hard, you know, Like, I'm absolutely working hard to earn where I'm at, but I just never thought I'd do that well. Yeah, I never thought I'd be able to support my family in the way that I am. I never thought that my QuickBooks, you know, income at this point this year would be that number. It's great. And on one hand, holding my baby was the best feeling in the world, but I don't know, it really equates to making money. It just does.

John Dehlin [02:57:08] It rivals, you mean?

Allison Shiffler [02:57:09] I mean, that is something I'm going to say to my daughter, which is like, listen, other people are gonna tell you different things, and that's fine, but making your own money and going through hell of those programs and all those assignments, and I wasn't naturally good at all this. I had a tutor for statistics. I had a tutor. Tutor in high school for chemistry. I had, like, I, you know, really worked hard to get through these things. Some of them were just getting passing grades. I worked really hard. And when it adds up to being a woman who's making money and making intelligent financial decisions and navigating savings and learning about investing and doing all these things that are, frankly, crucial as a provider and in my case, as a solo parent and only parent provider. I don't know. Holding my baby for the first time, doing my taxes. But both. Both pretty good.

John Dehlin [02:58:05] Pretty good moments, as they say.

Allison Shiffler [02:58:07] Sixes. They're both maybe exactly the same. Exactly the same.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:11] Yes. Beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:58:13] Excellent. All right, so as we end, and we have your consent for this, you mentioned your tattoos. Do you want to tell us what a couple of them mean to you? Just for fun?

Tattoos, Therapy, and Finding Joy

Allison Shiffler [02:58:23] Yeah. So this one on my.

John Dehlin [02:58:27] Describe it for the listeners so they can also. Okay, you can show it, but also describe it.

Allison Shiffler [02:58:31] So this one part of it was also, like the experience. So this one, it's a woman, kind of looks like a saint. And I asked this artist, her name is Anka La Vive, I think is her last name. She recently tattooed Willow Smith's hand, so she's hard to get into now. But anyway, here in Salt Lake. No, I know that she lives in Montana. She travels now. This was in New York, though, when I got this tattoo and my daughter was a baby. She's probably, like, I don't know, six or seven months old. I got this tattoo because of this contrast of being raised to worship men and being raised to confess to men and get the approval from it. Just like this whole idea of patriarchy, deity, God, you know, et cetera, all of that being male. And at the time, I'm like, I'm doing this by myself, with community, you know, with support. But, like, my. My body kept my baby alive. And I acknowledge. I acknowledge half the zygote of the man that came into my body, you know, and created life. I'll give, you know, give it that little bit of credit. Not a ton of effort, but a little bit of credit, and my body did the rest. You know, like, my body created this life. My body sustained this life. And believing in myself and believing that I could do it was actually what I needed the whole time. It's like this wizard of Oz plot, twist of. It was you the whole time. You've had that strength the whole time. You've had courage the whole time. You've had, you know, all these beautiful things that you were looking for externally. And, like, what if it's. You Worship yourself, girl. Like, you've got this. You can do it, actually. And, yeah, it'll be hard, but you can do it. The coolest thing about this, though, is as she was tattooing me, I told her, just given the pain I was experiencing, I said, hey, could you just talk to me? Could you maybe tell me about how you became a tattoo artist? And she told me about being born and raised in Ukraine. And my tattoo artist, Anka, says to her dad, when I think she was maybe, like, 12 or 13, she said, I want to be a tattoo artist. And he comes home the next day with a tattoo kit. I mean, this is in the 90s. He comes home with a tattoo kit in Ukraine, and he says, if you're going to do this, I want you to be serious about it. And I bought you this, and I want you to practice, and you can practice on me. And I'm, like, getting so emotional during this tattoo. I'm like, so your dad has all your early work on him? And she's like, yeah, he just really believed in me, but was like, you can do this. And I have a baby at home with a sitter. And I'm like, your dad is so amazing. Oh, my God. He, like, really believed in you, and, you know, just, like, culture wise to, like, look at his little girl and be like, you can do this, you know? So there. There's, like, a little bit of, like, knowing the artist's backstory and this incredible encouragement she had from her dad, who said, you can do this. And also, I want you to, like, really take it seriously. And so I just thought that was, like, one of the most beautiful stories.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:53] Right?

Allison Shiffler [03:01:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:54] All right, well, such a wonderful story, such an inspiration, inspiring and beautiful story. So thank you. And before we end, if somebody's looking for a therapist, what do you have to say about that?

Allison Shiffler [03:02:10] If you're looking for a therapist and if you're feeling that this may be a good dynamic, as a disclaimer, I'm very blunt. Okay. I'm also focused. I'm also sorry.

John Dehlin [03:02:22] No, no, I like it.

Allison Shiffler [03:02:23] I'm focused on the rapport building process. I'm not scary, I promise. But, you know, part of. I understand that this can be, like, maybe a strange thing, doing a Mormon story, disclosing areas of, you know, personal vulnerability. But then also, you know, we all know therapists are people we all know. They have their own therapists, they have their own trauma, they have their own dead dads, they have their own stuff they're figuring out, you know. So by no means do I think this is a detriment. I think for years I was arrested and thinking like, is this a bad thing to do? And now I'm just like, hey, guess what? Every therapist is a human. It's fine. I don't think that's too much of a plot twist. But if you want to work with me, if that feels good for couples or individual therapy, and I'm not for everybody, but if this, you know, maybe feels like, you know, a person you want to work with, you can find me on Instagram, which is therapywithalison Therapy with Allison Underscore. Yeah. Yeah. And that will be the easiest thing. You can click on the link tree in my profile. I am currently taking clients, so you can just go on there and schedule. The only reason we might not be able to work together is when I read your intake paperwork. And if I feel like there might be, you know, some. Some factors or variables that would make you a fit for, you know, a better fit for somebody else. However, just you can go ahead and schedule with me now. I also have a website connected to that link tree where if you're just looking for a therapist in general, I have a bunch of people on my website, just people who I personally think are great and wonderful. But, yeah, I'm taking couples. I'm taking individuals. I love, love, love couples work. And after determining that there is a foundational and mutual interest in working on it and in, you know, navigating the resilience and incredible strength factors in a relationship, it's just some of the most incredible work that There is. It is life changing work. I love couples work so much. It is really hard. It is really exhausting. I recognize that it's expensive. I know personally that it's expensive. But I also just want to encourage anybody who is currently in a very unhappy relationship if you are wondering, what does this look like if we work on it? What does it look like as we sit on that therapy couch and maybe navigate more of the issues? And what does this look like if we try to figure out if we can save this? It's one of the most important answers that you can navigate, first of all. And it's some of the most important work that we can do, which is dive into our individual and respective vulnerabilities, our individual trauma. I say to all my couples, it's not just about the goal of we need a better sex life or we need better communication. It's not just that we've got our own individual stuff that is showing up. And it's really, really, really beautiful work to do for a couple to facilitate healing with their vulnerability. I love it. I love individual work. I love couples work. But I just, I love, love, and I love seeing couples learn how to get out of chapters that seemed impossible.

John Dehlin [03:05:48] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:49] Yeah. Thank you.

Allison Shiffler [03:05:51] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:05:52] So Therapy with Allison underscore on Instagram, therapy-with-alison.com Yep. On the Internet.

Allison Shiffler [03:06:00] Yep. And I'm also on Psychology Today. You can see my profile on there. All of these are areas where you can book an appointment with me. And I, to be honest, I do try to avoid phone consultations just because that can kind of, you know, get a little out of control in terms of my schedule. But, you know, go ahead and go to my Instagram. You know, you can kind of get a feel for some of the content on there. The. The reason that this may be a little valuable in terms of navigating, if you think you want to work with me, is I really believe the Psychology Today profile, for instance, doesn't give enough dynamic of personality to a therapist. And sometimes when you watch them interact, there's something almost difficult to describe about. I feel like I like them. I feel like I work with them. Right.

John Dehlin [03:06:47] You should therapy shop. You should therapist shop.

Allison Shiffler [03:06:50] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:51] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:51] Absolutely. Yeah.

Closing Reflections and Farewell

John Dehlin [03:06:53] All right. Allison Shiffler, this has been amazing. Thank you so much.

Allison Shiffler [03:06:56] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:06:57] And Margi, it's so lovely to do this with you. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:59] Such a pleasure today. Really.

Allison Shiffler [03:07:01] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:07:02] And hope you'll come back on Mormon Stories. I'm sure there's lots of opportunities for collaboration or episode content. So hope you'll come back.

Allison Shiffler [03:07:10] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:07:11] All right. All right. Well, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. We rely on your support to keep this going. So if you value this type of content and want to see it continue, you can go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button, become a monthly donor, and we'll keep doing this for as long as y' all have interest and support. Thanks to everyone who makes this possible. Julia Maven, Gerardo, Brooklyn Our board, Margi, Everyone takes a village to run a podcast, too. And thanks to everyone who makes this possible. Mostly thanks to our donors because we couldn't do it without you. Other than that, we've got lots of good episodes coming up in the weeks, months and years ahead. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Subscribe on YouTube and Spotify because that helps with the algorithms. Share this with whoever you can. Give us your feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Bye, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.