In December, 2015 Mormon Stories Podcast interviewed Clay Christensen and his brother-in-law Matt Elggren about Matt’s loss of LDS faith in 2003, and Clay’s subsequent loss of faith in October, 2015 after 50 years active LDS membership, and after 7 years as a high-level LDS Church employee.
In April, 2016 Clay was contacted by his stake president and invited to a disciplinary council to be excommunicated for apostasy. The reason given for the disciplinary council was Clay’s Mormon Stories Podcast. This is Clay’s update since his December, 2015 interview.
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Guest: Clay Christensen
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction and the Podcast That Caused a Stir
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's April 29, 2016. We're doing a one camera shot today. I'm running audio and video and I'm doing the interview. But we're here to interview Clay Christensen. Re interview Clay Christensen. I should say those of you who follow Mormon stories will remember Clay's interview that I did maybe a few months ago around Christmas time. I interviewed my friend Matt Elgren and Clay Christensen. Matt's someone that I knew at Microsoft for many years and he had his crisis of faith many years ago and for many, many years was sort of alone in his family as the only sort of non believer.
John Dehlin [00:00:42] That was a great story to hear Matt's. But then we also paired Matt's story with the story of Clay Christensen. Clay is Matt's brother in law. He's married to Matt's wife Laurie. And Clay was a faithful, devout member of the church, true believer for over 50 years. If and just last sort of October ish, Clay lost his faith. So by interviewing him in December, we were interviewing someone who was very fresh to losing his faith. But also we talked about how much it meant to Matt to wait so patiently for an ally in the family to join him and how Clay became an ally. So since that time Clay did the interview, he has been notified, was notified by his bishopric or stick presidency that he was to have a disciplinary council for his Mormon Stories interview.
John Dehlin [00:01:37] I don't think there's any other reason that they wanted to hold the disciplinary council for him. Clay very heroically contemplated actually attending the disciplinary council. We know that they would have excommunicated him. And he ended up being sort of inspired by Jeremy Runnels and deciding that instead of going through a disciplinary council, he was going to sort of claim his own power and resign from from the church instead of allow them to excommunicate him. And in Jeremy's words, he excommunicated the church. So it would have been an excommunication.
John Dehlin [00:02:12] But you know, Clay didn't want to take it that way. So we're here just to give you a quick update. This will be, you know, a 50 minute interview and we're just going to interview Clay about what happened. So I'm going to turn the camera around really quick and zoom in on you, Clay. Clay Christensen, welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast.
Clay Christensen [00:02:35] Thank you.
John Dehlin [00:02:38] So why don't you just sort of talk to us about what happened kind of. What was the response to your podcast? Let's start There.
Clay Christensen [00:02:46] Oh, the response was overwhelming, as you know, there was so many comments that you had to expand the comment capability. And I really, you know, I enjoyed the comments and I enjoyed responding to them and the feedback we got from people. And since then, you know, we've just had such a. We've been to some of the Mormon spectrum events. We just, we've had a lot of, made a lot of contact with people and it's, it's been great. I know it's helped people and that's what it was all about.
John Dehlin [00:03:14] So positive response to the podcast?
Clay Christensen [00:03:16] Very positive.
John Dehlin [00:03:18] What about in your family? So with Matt and Laurie, don't talk about anything you aren't comfortable, but what can you talk about about how that's been for the family and for your wife and kids?
Clay Christensen [00:03:32] Well, for my family, my wife was nervous about it, but she knew, she was fully supportive of me and she's known me long enough to know that I'm outspoken and she thought it was a good thing to do and she liked the way it turned out. My family's united, my immediate family, but the extended family didn't really take it well. And some watched it, some didn't. I guess the thing I would say about it is that Matt continues to be isolated and we are isolated from our family and they are, some would say, doubling down. They're becoming even more committed to the faith and they're not questioning it. It's sad, but people are going to respond to it in different ways.
John Dehlin [00:04:16] Sure. So why don't you talk about how things have been in your ward and what your approach was in terms of church participation between the podcast and getting notified by your leadership?
Leaving the Church After the Interview
Clay Christensen [00:04:37] Well, we never went back to church. The last time I set foot in church was in December when I took my word mission leader Binder over and had a really good discussion with my bishop about why I just couldn't come back 45 minutes and told him about the essays and told him about the CES letter and just had a good discussion.
Clay Christensen [00:05:01] In January after the word got out and the bishop told the stake president, the bishop and the stake president came over to visit and we had a two hour meeting at my house and I told them what month was this? This would have been January, second week of January.
Clay Christensen [00:05:17] And, you know, they were very cordial, very friendly, and that's part of the reason I wanted to do this podcast follow up, because it has been nothing but love for my ward. I'm sure there's people that are, you know, upset with me, but our ward leadership I told my Elders Quorum president, had a good conversation, friends in the Elders Quorum. I asked the Elders Quorum president to tell people that I had left because I found out that the church wasn't true or phrase it however you want, but I found I left because of not believing in the truth claims of the church anymore. I did not leave because I want to sin.
Clay Christensen [00:05:55] Back to the discussion with the bishop. We talked for two hours, and I had been studying since our podcast and just. I was full of facts and I just. They said some things, but for almost two hours, I listed every single thing, basically a verbal CES letter. And, you know, it was just super cordial. At one point, the bishop got a little bit red in the face. I think he was probably getting a little bit angry. But I always try to make these two points. I never left because of anything that bad, anything wrong with the leadership of our church. I left because the truth claims are verifiably false.
Clay Christensen [00:06:39] And that's why. And so there was just a good feeling of love and understanding. And I felt that they cared about me. I still do. They asked how I wanted to leave it, and I said, look, I want to be like. And a couple of other brothers in the ward that don't come.
Clay Christensen [00:06:55] I said, I want to be like them. I just want to be the guy that's nice, friendly, to have nothing to do with the church. Mormons are welcome in my house. We don't turn anyone away. Last night, a good friend of mine in our ward in the High Council came over and we talked for an hour and a half, and he was concerned about me. I love him. Agree to disagree. But I felt nothing but love for my wife. Sorry, long answer.
John Dehlin [00:07:26] No, that's great. So real quick, between January and when you got contacted again, did they try and talk to you about your problems? Did they try and resolve your concerns? Did you have any meetings where you guys could discuss and then try and help you at all?
Clay Christensen [00:07:43] No, there wasn't really any meeting or any discussion after that. We left it in January, pretty definitive that I was not going to be convinced that the church was true in any way. And it was a positive meeting. But it wasn't like I had questions. I wasn't a Jeremy Reynolds asking questions. I was telling him what I'd found out. And in that meeting in January, I was going to tell you. The stake president said to me, you know, you could drop a truckload of facts on me and it wouldn't change my opinion. And, you know, I understand that my faith Was that strong too. And so I understand that. But the thing, at some point, facts matter. And, and so. Okay, okay, so.
John Dehlin [00:08:25] So you left it where they would kind of leave. You didn't want their help. Fast forward to April. What happens in April?
Clay Christensen [00:08:31] Well, so first week of April, I got an urgent text from my bishop saying the stake president and he would like to come over on a Thursday night. I was busy, we went back and forth and I could tell there was an urgency. So they ended up coming over on Sunday. And I felt bad because they have such a long Sunday anyway, but they came over at six o' clock on the dot and we had another cordial visit, sat down, checking on, asking about my family. And I felt that they really genuinely do care about me. But quickly they said, look, we've seen your podcast.
Clay Christensen [00:09:04] And they watched the podcast. And I said, wow, you watched all three hours? And they said, yeah, we watched it. And I. And I wasn't worried that I said anything that would get me in trouble. I said more definitive things about the church not being true. My testimony was stronger face to face with them than it was on the podcast. So I wasn't really worried that I was going to get in trouble. But they said, we'd like to invite you to a disciplinary council.
Clay Christensen [00:09:33] And I said, oh, a church court? And he said, no, no, it's a council. And I said, well, I said, I'll have to think about that. It was scheduled for the 1st of May, this Sunday coming up 2016. And I had to think about what I wanted to do there. But we had a great conversation and they still left it, as would you still be willing to do the citizenship merit badges for scouting? And I said, absolutely, I'll do things to support the neighbors I still love. And one of the things I said in that meeting, and I will say it forever, there are no two men that are more Christ like that I've ever known than my bishop and my stake president.
Clay Christensen [00:10:11] My experience is so different from what I've heard other people say. And from Jeremy's experience, I watched that and there was not love there. I don't think there can be love in an excommunication, no matter how good you are.
Clay Christensen [00:10:28] Anyway, I told my bishop and stake president that they actually made it easier for me to leave the church because I will never have a doubt that I left the church for the wrong reasons. I didn't leave the church because people offended me. If anything, I know that I left because it's not true. Because if the church could ever be True. Those two men would make it true.
John Dehlin [00:10:51] But that wasn't enough to keep you in.
Clay Christensen [00:10:53] No, I'm not gonna. I'm someone who cares about the truth too much to. To subject my family to it without being too negative. Being aware of what happens in the church over the last six months, I've become a lot more aware of it, and I see a lot of the damage that it does. I'm really glad that my family and my children, my grandchildren, I'll be able to raise them. They'll live outside of the church, and it will be a good thing for their lives.
Facing Excommunication and Mixed Emotions
John Dehlin [00:11:24] Did you. How did you feel? Did you want to be excommunicated? Did you want to be kicked out of the church? If not, why?
Clay Christensen [00:11:32] No. That's a good question. I never resigned because I didn't want to send a message that I don't love my neighbors. It's, you know, at best, it's a really expensive club, and it was one I enjoyed being. I love the association. I would never go into the church again. I would never set foot in there because I don't support it. I don't support what it stands for. But I didn't want to resign. I wanted to be able to still check my genealogy and still do things like that, but I didn't want to be excommunicated for that reason. It's very hateful, what it says in the letter. When you get an excommunication letter, read
John Dehlin [00:12:13] what's hateful about it.
Clay Christensen [00:12:16] I don't even like to read this about myself because it said this action is being taken due to information received that you have been involved in conduct unbecoming a member of the church. Now, that might be true because a member of the church shouldn't tell you that the church isn't true. But that term, conduct unbecoming, has a lot of meaning for me because I served honorably as an active duty and reservist in the Navy for 22 years, and I would never want a dishonorable discharge or anything less than honorable. And so it's hurtful. It's hurtful to see people getting excommunicated. And I don't believe that Christ would excommunicate someone.
John Dehlin [00:12:54] But it sounds like you're saying it's hurtful to be called dishonorable.
Clay Christensen [00:12:57] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:12:57] Why?
Clay Christensen [00:12:58] Because you feel like you're acting dishonorable? I don't feel like I'm acting dishonorably. And like I said, I don't want to. I am no Jeremy Reynolds, but I think we have One thing in common, we are just calling attention to the fact that the church isn't true. And the church claims that they have made the truth claims that they have made all these years are falsifiable and it's dishonest. And we're calling that out. And to be clear, I think Jeremy Reynolds is a hero.
Clay Christensen [00:13:30] And people said, oh, wow, you're so brave. I am not brave to do this. I am able to do this because my wife is by my side. And my message is to the people that are watching this, that are in marriages that are split because of this church, hang in there. I'm sorry for your situation, and I hope that someday you and your spouses can be reunited. That's why I do this.
John Dehlin [00:13:53] So is it a matter of honor for you?
Clay Christensen [00:13:54] It is. I testify to the truthfulness of this church on five continents for 50 years, 50 plus years. I won't stand by and just pretend like it's okay to just go away and say that, well, I don't believe, but it's okay if you want to believe, and it is okay if you want to believe. But I will not. I have to correct my testimony. I just want to go on the record and say it is not true. You can find out for yourself and do find out for yourself.
John Dehlin [00:14:24] So when they say conduct unbecoming, do you have a sense, pretty clear sense of what they mean by that?
Clay Christensen [00:14:31] Oh, yeah, it's conduct unbecoming. No, they said, we watch the podcast
John Dehlin [00:14:36] and so you were excommunicated. You were going to be excommunicated for the podcast?
Clay Christensen [00:14:40] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:14:41] Does that make you regret the podcast?
Clay Christensen [00:14:43] Never. I will never regret the podcast.
John Dehlin [00:14:45] Why?
Clay Christensen [00:14:46] Because I know for a fact that it helped reunite one couple. A husband that had been out of the church for years and a wife that had been the suffering wife for 15 or so years without priesthood in the home, being told by the church that she wasn't going to be with her husband in heaven. All the negative things, all the divisiveness that the church does, that family is together now, and I am so happy. If there's even one more family that gets united because of that podcast, this would be worth it. Even at the cost of being excommunicated
John Dehlin [00:15:20] that your family might experience?
Clay Christensen [00:15:22] Absolutely. It's worth it. It's worth it to help people. And people have criticized, say, oh, you just want to be famous. I don't want to be famous. This is, you know, this is it. I just wanted to answer a lot of the questions because a lot of questions did Come up after the podcast. Are you angry? Nope, not angry. It's a useless.
John Dehlin [00:15:38] But anger. Anger is okay. Anger is actually healthy. I want to just tell you that that anger is healthy and we shouldn't. The church tells us that they look down on people who are angry. But I just want to say to you that anger is an important part of the healing process. Well, so I'm telling you it's okay to be angry.
Clay Christensen [00:16:01] Alright, if you want to get me angry, we'll read some.
John Dehlin [00:16:05] Go ahead. What did you want to read about that?
Church History, Emma Smith, and Polygamy
Clay Christensen [00:16:07] Well, last time I read a quote from this book, no man knows my history. And I wanted to bring it up because one of the things that a lot of people have done and this brother that came over to visit me last night and the stake president, they said, well, check your sources. What about your sources?
Clay Christensen [00:16:27] How do you know that this is true? I would refer you to this book and I would refer you to the bibliography. It is chock full of the writings, the court cases, the newspaper articles. This is well documented anti Mormon literature. It's just history. It's absolute history.
Clay Christensen [00:16:50] The one thing I wanted to read in here is just how sad it was for Emma. There's been a lot of talk lately about Emma and there was even an article in the news recently about Eliza. So I'm just going to read this quick story about Eliza Snow.
Clay Christensen [00:17:12] And this is from page 345 of no Man Knows My History. Of the six wives who lived for long periods in the mansion house, apparently only 39 year old poetess Eliza Snow conceived a child. She, as well as Emma, it seems, was pregnant. In the spring of 1844, Eliza must have been torn between dread of the consequences and exaltation at the prospect of facing the world the mother of a prophet's son.
Clay Christensen [00:17:39] It so happened that her bedroom in the mansion house was to the left of Joseph's, Emma's being on the right. According to tradition in the Snow family, Eliza emerged one morning at the same moment as Joseph, and he caught her to him in a quick embrace. At this instant, Emma opened her own door and in a sudden terrible rage, for apparently she had trusted Eliza above all other women, seized a broomstick and began beating her. Eliza tried to flee, stumbled and fell down the full flight of stairs. Still not content, Emma pursued her in a frenzy that Joseph was powerless to stop, and drove her out of the house in her night dress.
Clay Christensen [00:18:17] By this time the whole mansion house was awake. Young Joseph and Alexander weeping and frightened at their mother's hysteria and begging her to be kind to Aunt Eliza. They adored Joseph, calmed his wife down, and indignantly ordered her to restore Eliza to her room and rights in the household. The fall, it is said, resulted in a miscarriage. After Joseph's death, Eliza married Brigham Young but bore him no children.
Clay Christensen [00:18:40] Now, I wanted to read this because it's real. This is real. These are real people. And I have to answer one more question that came up after the podcast, and that's the question of my wife's relationship to Joseph Smith, her family. She's related to Lucy Mack and Joseph and Hyrum through so many different ways. And so the DNA study that people are aware of has been very complex.
Clay Christensen [00:19:05] And I just wanted to let people know there's a 50, 50 chance that, you know, my wife has descended directly of Joseph Smith through Josephine, through Sylvia Sessions. But the important story there is Sylvia Sessions was married to Windsor Lyon, and he is a victim of this church. He's a victim of Joseph Smith. He loaned money to his stake president. When he asked for it back, the stake president was offended. He was excommunicated by. But he was still married to Sylvia Sessions, and Joseph Smith came along and married her. Sylvia wasn't sure who it was, whose baby it was Josephine, but there's a 50, 50 chance it was Windsor Lyons or Joseph's.
Clay Christensen [00:19:46] What a tragedy. What a tragedy that is to be a victim of the prophet like that. And so we don't know, but the DNA study is going to come out and we'll soon know. And either way, it does not prove Joseph Smith was a prophet. Either way.
John Dehlin [00:20:04] So your point is that people are being harmed.
Clay Christensen [00:20:07] People are being harmed by this church? Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:20:09] What about all the people that are being helped?
Clay Christensen [00:20:12] I feel like. And I told this to the bishop, I told this to my friends. I don't believe the church is the reason why people are being helped. It's the association, it's the scouting organization, or the different associations you can have. And you don't need the church to have those associations.
Clay Christensen [00:20:30] People are good. I believe that people are good, naturally. And I just don't. I have a lot of friends from my time in the Navy that we've marveled and time living around the country that we've marveled at how well they've raised their children outside the church.
Clay Christensen [00:20:47] And I believe it's. I think it's better to raise your children outside the church. I do that. It saves them that teenage drama that comes. I will never have to worry that my children or grandchildren will one day realize that they've been lied to. They won't have to do this because of me. You know, the 200 years of deception ends with me. I won't keep it going.
John Dehlin [00:21:10] But what if they gain the benefit of not being deceived, but they lose the benefits of association and don't replace it with something better? Then you've traded down. Possibly.
Clay Christensen [00:21:23] That concerns me, and I hope for a time when children can grow up in Utah and associate with one another and not have to be outcasts because they're not Mormon. I hope that time comes.
John Dehlin [00:21:36] But it's not just being outcast. It's not having not even been included. It's not having your own identity, your own community, your own sort of associations. Right?
Clay Christensen [00:21:50] Yeah. Yeah, that's a concern. I know a lot of people worry about what's going to happen to their young children, and I don't have all the answers. I know that if I had it to do over again, my children would never set foot in a Mormon church.
John Dehlin [00:22:05] So you're saying truth matters and it's more important for you to raise your children in truth than to sort of maintain your affiliation and get the benefits from that, knowing that the underpinnings are falsified?
Clay Christensen [00:22:22] Basically, yeah. And this isn't to be ungrateful. I am truly thankful for the people who dedicated time and money to making my children's childhood enjoyable and teach them the gospel. I was thankful for the stake president of the Bishop. When my son came home from his mission, he came home after four days. I didn't really talk about that on the podcast before because I didn't want people to think that that's why I left the church, because, oh, my son came over a mission. We're leaving.
John Dehlin [00:22:54] Why in four days? Was the faith crisis related or other things?
Clay Christensen [00:22:57] He didn't tell me his sister told him that the church wasn't true just a few couple weeks before he went into the daughter. My daughter had left the church when she was in high school because she had too many questions.
John Dehlin [00:23:08] We talked about that.
Clay Christensen [00:23:09] And then he went down to the MTC and he was there. We picked him up on Saturday and he called us on Thursday and said, mom, Dad, I want to come home. I can't do this. We thought that he had anxiety. We thought that he just didn't, you know, just wasn't able to do it. And he didn't want to tell us that he didn't believe. I mean, he didn't dare tell me that he had doubts about the church. And I thought I was A pretty open person. I wished he would have felt comfortable to tell me, sorry, I just hit the mic. But he just didn't feel comfortable saying that.
Clay Christensen [00:23:41] I'm thankful that we picked him up on Saturday and just said, son, we love you. I felt like Abraham. I was willing to sacrifice him, but I didn't have to. And I was completely devout Mormon from August when we picked him up, until November 7th. When I read the CES letter on the morning of November 7th, my idea. I told my wife, I said, I'm going to see if Ethan will go with me to the temple today. He went to the gym and she handed me the CS letter. Several hours later, I knew it wasn't true.
Family Dynamics and Reasons for Leaving
John Dehlin [00:24:15] So if somebody says you just left because your children left, what would you say?
Clay Christensen [00:24:20] I would say, weeks later, I told my son that the coffee that he smelled in the car wasn't Grandpa's. It was my coffee. Son, the church isn't true. And the reason why for that story is we had said that it might be better to tell him after Christmas when the whole family gets together. Let's not disrupt the situation. But, you know, I'm sad. I waited a few weeks after I found out to tell him he was.
John Dehlin [00:24:52] But your leaving wasn't connected to his leaving?
Clay Christensen [00:24:55] No, not at all. He says, well, you wouldn't have been looking on the Internet for information about the church if mom wasn't Googling. Why are so many missionaries coming home? Why are so many missionaries getting depression? How to help missionaries that have returned home?
Clay Christensen [00:25:09] Because it is. It's a traumatic event. He's had friends that have come home since then, and I think his courage to come home has helped them to come home. Not faith crisis related, but they've just said they want to come home.
Clay Christensen [00:25:26] His courage to come home. I felt bad for him because how do you tell your parents you want to come home from your mission? It's tough. In the lobby of the MTC was a young man who was bawling when we picked up my son. And he said he was talking to him and he said, my parents are going to be. They're going to kill me when I find out. When they come pick me up, they're going to be so angry. I am just thankful that, you know, we didn't treat. Even though we were devout, we embraced him and brought him home. And I hope that any Mormons that listen to this just say, hey, love your children.
Clay Christensen [00:25:58] And the churches and spouses that are listening to this that are still devout, I don't know that they are. Love your spouses, your family is way more important than anything about this church. Family is way more important.
John Dehlin [00:26:13] So. So you didn't want to be excommunicated, but they decided to excommunicate you for the podcast. How do you feel about being excommunicated for a podcast? Or what do you think about that?
Clay Christensen [00:26:29] Well, I'll tell you what my wife said. She goes, you deserve to be excommunicated. You've told everyone on the Internet that the church isn't true. Why would they want to. Why would they let you speak?
John Dehlin [00:26:40] Why shouldn't they excommunicate?
Clay Christensen [00:26:41] You shouldn't excommunicate. You and I. And it was hard to argue. And that's why we talked about, should I go to the court or not? And I didn't want to cause unnecessary drama, but I did kind of want to put the focus on NAM, because I don't believe it's Christlike. I don't believe Christ would ever excommunicate someone. But to be fair, I think an organization has the right to excommunicate someone who is telling people that the organization is. Is a bad thing.
John Dehlin [00:27:12] But you do think it's unchristlike?
Clay Christensen [00:27:14] Yeah, it's absolutely unchristlike.
John Dehlin [00:27:16] Okay.
Clay Christensen [00:27:16] Yeah. I think they should say, if they said something like, we're not going to allow you access to your LDS account anymore, fine. But, you know, the excommunication thing, it's medieval. You know, it comes from medieval Europe, you know.
John Dehlin [00:27:33] Yeah. So you had the option of going through the disciplinary council or just resigning. You've talked a bit about this, but just tell us how you decided to resign versus be excommunicated.
Clay Christensen [00:27:49] Well, that's a good question. I wanted to kind of highlight the fact that excommunication is not Christlike, but we went down to Jeremy Reynolds. You know, my wife and I went down to see Jeremy Reynolds and to thank him one more time face to face for the CS letter. I can never thank him enough after that. I just came back and I said, you know, I don't want this drama.
Clay Christensen [00:28:14] I loved the way Jeremy put it, I excommunicate the church. And so I want to also thank the lawyer, Mark Nagel, who created QuitMormon.com I would encourage people to use QuitMormon.com because it was very simple to do, and it was just a nice way to just take care of the legalities of resigning without all the drama. The website is easy.
Clay Christensen [00:28:42] Also, I like the fact that they're able to keep some statistics because I Think they'll show over time that people are leaving and the numbers don't add up for the church. I think that puts a focus on people leaving, and I think there should be a focus also. I just wanted to register my vote in a way. I want people to know I am no longer a member of the church because it's not true.
John Dehlin [00:29:09] Got it? Yeah.
Clay Christensen [00:29:12] If I could just volunteer one thing. People said, well, you're sinning, you must be sinning. You don't have the spirit anymore. And I'll tell you that the only sinning I do is I drink coffee now and I just sinned on camera and it feels great. And I've had this. I've had this mug for 10 years, and I didn't know what to do with it because I didn't drink coffee. But you'll notice that it's.
John Dehlin [00:29:36] It's got some hieroglyphics on it.
Clay Christensen [00:29:38] It's from the British Museum. It's got Greek, demotic, and Egyptian hieroglyphics, and it's how we know that it's
John Dehlin [00:29:45] from the Rosetta Stone.
Clay Christensen [00:29:47] Yeah. It's how we know the Book of Abraham is my favorite way that shows Joseph Smith is absolutely not a prophet and not able to translate it. Didn't have any kind of gift.
John Dehlin [00:30:00] But they say he used it as inspiration to channel Abraham's writings.
Clay Christensen [00:30:05] Yeah, I guess so. I just don't buy that. I don't buy the channeling of the writings. He put a character, then he wrote a paragraph and. Oh, that's another thing I want to talk about. Since the podcast, I have discovered that Joseph Smith was really well read. You know, when he talked about seek ye out of the best books, he was talking about himself. That was biographic because he was so well read. I discovered that a guy named Swedenborg had written about the celestial, terrestrial and terrestrial kingdoms. That's where Joseph Smith got that.
Clay Christensen [00:30:45] And I discovered where the Book of Abraham and the book of Moses come from. There are books with those writings that Joseph read, and that's where he adopted it. His prophecies, his writings, his scriptures, they all came from the fact that he was well read.
Clay Christensen [00:31:01] There's a quote in here where Lucy talks about Joseph's father being able to read a book and recite paragraphs. I think that was Joseph's gift. He had a very good memory, very well read, and, you know, it's great. He's got some qualities that are admirable, but they're not prophetic.
John Dehlin [00:31:24] Yeah. So. You feel like it was reasonable for them to excommunicate you, though not Christlike, you chose to resign, to sort of claim your power and to sort of act as an agent and not be acted upon, which makes sense. Talk about now going forward.
Life After Mormonism: Health, Happiness, and Outlook
John Dehlin [00:31:50] Are you sad? Are you dark and loathsome? Are you? Have your morals changed? And how optimistic are you about the future? Now? I'm going to sort of jump in and just say what I'm learning is that it's not like the recipe for joy and happiness is leaving the church. There are plenty of people who leave the church and whether because they're just reactionary or just so hurt or don't have their moorings, they go crazy with their behavior in ways that become unsafe or unhealthy or they, you know, their marriages dissolve. You know, I'm not saying that to be fear mongering because there are tons of people that just go on to live happy, healthy, productive lives.
John Dehlin [00:32:40] But there's risk. And so tell me how you feel about the risk and your optimism that you're going to find health and joy on the other side.
Clay Christensen [00:32:50] Yeah, that's a great question. And that's for me personally. I feel like I've never been happier. I feel like I've never been more Christlike or more Christian because I actually feel like I have more sympathy and more understanding for the human condition.
Clay Christensen [00:33:09] I believe things are still black and white. Truth, yes or no. And it's when you break them down to their atomic parts. But I think I understand and to borrow a phrase, the Mormon spectrum, better. I understand now that there are people that keep going to church because they just don't want to cause dramatic in their family or they value what they get from the church.
Clay Christensen [00:33:31] People have to sort that out for themselves. Like you said, I don't want to paint the picture that everything is going to be rosy outside the church. It's rosy for me. It's great for me because my family is together and if the circumstances were different, I might be in a different situation.
Clay Christensen [00:33:48] And I feel like it was a tender mercy that I quit working for the church three years before I found out any of this.
John Dehlin [00:33:56] Why?
Clay Christensen [00:33:57] Well, because I can't even imagine how agonizing it would have been for me to find this out. And I have friends that did find out. A friend that we talked about in the last podcast, he found out in January, still worked for the church, immediately had to find another job.
Clay Christensen [00:34:12] It would be very traumatic to find this out working there. Another quick story is the day that my excommunication or my resignation process was the 27th of April. I checked my LDS account because I needed to decide. You know, this was Wednesday, just two days ago. I needed to decide if I needed to contact the stake president, let him know, or if it was going to happen automatically. And so I checked LDS account that morning, and I still had access.
Clay Christensen [00:34:41] And interestingly, my friends that I used to work with at the church, 11 of them, we got together for a long lunch and had a fantastic lunch. I, the ex Mormon, and many of them had watched my podcast, and all of them Mormons working at the church, we had a fantastic reunion lunch. I felt nothing but love from them, and I had nothing but love for them back. And we didn't talk about the church at all. We talked about sports, about our families, about, you know, one of my dear friends that had cut his hand with a chainsaw and the other one was going in for surgery for colon cancer.
Clay Christensen [00:35:20] Just a friends getting together, and it was fantastic. I came home from that lunch that afternoon and saw that my resignation had been processed.
John Dehlin [00:35:30] How'd that feel to see it be official?
Clay Christensen [00:35:32] It's. It's. It is. It's emotional. And like I said, you can say, well, how can that be emotional, Clay? You don't. It's still emotional. 51 years of being a member of the church and now you're out. It's emotional. My heart goes out to people who hesitate and don't know what are the
John Dehlin [00:35:49] emotions you feel or felt.
Clay Christensen [00:35:53] Just, wow, 50 years of being in a church that you were willing to do whatever, you gave your money, your time, your talent, you raised your kids in it. You start thinking of all the emotion, all the opportunity costs, what might have been. You're grateful for what was. But then at the same time, you know, there's so much that might have been different or better. And maybe there's a slight bit of anger because you were betrayed, you're lied to, but you're glad to be out of it. And I can tell you that I don't regret leaving. I'm glad I'm out. But it's still super emotional. And so, you know, people tread lightly.
John Dehlin [00:36:31] So anger, regret, and happiness, are those.
Clay Christensen [00:36:35] Yeah, they're all. It's a flood of emotions.
John Dehlin [00:36:37] Any other emotions?
Clay Christensen [00:36:39] Well, there's a sadness, too, because my wife didn't resign. You know, we have now. We were talking about this last night in Word Counsel. It will be discussed that we have a part member family, no priesthood in the home. And we were driving around, we're talking about this, and she says, you know. Yeah.
Clay Christensen [00:36:55] Now we don't have a priesthood holder. And when you hear those words, you remember what it used to mean and what you used to think about that, about other families with no priesthood holder in the home. And that you remember the sadness that you felt for other people. And then you think how sad that is that our home will be labeled a no priesthood leader in the home.
Clay Christensen [00:37:15] And then she said, well, yeah, but they don't either. It's not real. And so you make a joke about it and you move on because they don't have it either. It's not real.
John Dehlin [00:37:28] So what are your emotions? Don't apologize. Well, this is great. Emotions are. We don't choose them.
Clay Christensen [00:37:33] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:37:34] And it's healthy to talk about them. So what are your emotions today? And what do you believe in now? And if you were to leave our listeners with some parting words of wisdom or, you know, perspective. So start with what emotions you're feeling today.
Clay Christensen [00:37:52] Okay. The emotions today are, I want to make sure that I answer questions that people had about the podcast. I want to make sure people, you know, that I appreciate you, John. People like Jeremy Reynolds. I want my appreciation for Mark Nagle. I'm saying his name right, with the QuitMormon.com, jeremy Reynolds with the CS letter. Sandra Tanner, Lighthouse Ministries. All the people, Mormon spectrum. The Mormon spectrum. We have been to some of those events and I am thankful for that because we are going to keep participating in that because it helps one another.
Clay Christensen [00:38:28] What this is about, my emotion is how can I help other people? I'm not looking to become famous. Podcaster. This is the last time I'm doing a podcast, knock on wood. Unless some unforeseen circumstances. But I mean, I'm not looking to become a celebrity, but I really, really want to help people.
Clay Christensen [00:38:47] You talk about advice. My emotion is I don't want people to perceive me the wrong way or get the wrong impression. I want people to know that I'm doing this because I want to tell people they can be happy outside the church and truth matters. That's my message.
Clay Christensen [00:39:06] And I would say, love your families, whether you're Mormon or not. Family is the most important thing. That's it. And you mentioned what do I believe? I will say that I'm still Christian. I will say I am Christian because the message of Christ is a great one. Do unto others, be kind.
Clay Christensen [00:39:26] I don't want to have a discussion on the podcast about Christianity, true or false, because Christ never hurt me. I love Christ. I will keep trying to be like him. As far as going to another church, I don't see it happening. I will attend other churches, but I don't see me joining another church for a long time. If ever that part's burnt, that's been burned away. That desire to want to start paying tithing or participating in some other church, that's going to be a hard one to get back. That's part of the emotion, too. You feel super naive and less trusting now.
John Dehlin [00:40:06] Yeah. So again, I'll just end with this. Are you and your family happier and healthier now than six months ago?
Clay Christensen [00:40:19] I would say absolutely we are happier and healthier. To be honest, I would say we're healthier because. It's just. We're emotionally healthier. I actually believe that coffee is good for you. And, you know, there's been a lot of studies, and I don't drink.
John Dehlin [00:40:38] What about the unity between your estranged daughter and now the rest of the family?
Clay Christensen [00:40:44] You know, that's a good story. The night that we talked about the church not being true, the night that I told my son that the church wasn't true, he went over to my daughter's house and she laughed and. And she was happy. We are united. The five of us in my immediate family are 100% united now. And it's a great feeling. The estranged family, you know, there's been. I don't want to even get into that. It's her fault.
John Dehlin [00:41:16] I mean, your immediate family.
Clay Christensen [00:41:17] Oh, my immediate family has never been closer. Since my daughter found out the church wasn't true from asking questions in seminary, there has been a rift that we could never understand. And it's. We are united now, and it's fantastic.
John Dehlin [00:41:32] And that's the most important thing.
Clay Christensen [00:41:33] Absolutely. Couldn't be happier because of that.
John Dehlin [00:41:36] All right, Clay Christensen. Well, it's been a real pleasure. Let me give a shout out to Matt. Matt, we love you. And Clay and Lori, we love you, too. But, Clay, we're so grateful you would tell your story. So many people were touched by your story last December. And we just want to say thank you for coming back on, for giving us the update, for letting us know that the church continues to excommunicate people, just for being open and honest about their doubts. And we just. I guess they're showing us their colors, you know? But we're grateful for you. We're grateful for you and your courage. It's as courageous for you to do what you're doing as other people. So we just want to celebrate you and your courage because you're blessing lives just like other people.
Clay Christensen [00:42:24] Thank you. I really appreciate it.
Closing Thoughts and Farewell
John Dehlin [00:42:26] All right. And listeners, thanks for joining us. I'll turn it back around just for a second. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Please, please come on to MormonStories.org and share your comments if you want to thank Clay. If you have other questions for Clay Clay, you can share it there. Those of you who support us financially@mormonstories.org, that's what makes this possible. So please donate if you can.
John Dehlin [00:42:51] And we'll keep doing great things in the Open Stories Foundation. We'll be having a really incredible retreat this mid July, July 15th 16th in Park City. We've had several of these retreats now. They're all about healing and growth. They're very positive, they're very affirming. But they're all about bringing mental health professionals in to support transitioning Mormons to heal and then create a new beautiful life after they've left Mormon orthodoxy. Whether they stay in the church or leave, we want to help people find community and get the tools and support that they need to grow. So if you're interested in one of the retreats, go to mormontransitions.org and you can sign up for the retreats there.
John Dehlin [00:43:41] In addition, check out other podcasts we have, like Mormon Matters, A Thoughtful Faith Gay Mormon Stories, Mormon Transitions Podcast, Open Stories foundation is doing great things and all these podcasts need your support. Please support female podcasters out there like Lindsay Hanson park and Gina Colvin and Christie Money and others. There's a huge disparity in what male versus female podcasters receive in contributions. And we just want to give a shout out to our female podcasters out there and say they deserve our support. Not just our verbal support, not just our listenership, but also our financial support. So donate to those things and we're grateful for everything.
John Dehlin [00:44:24] And we'll be doing a series very soon on rape and BYU and LDS culture that's coming up. We're also going to be doing a really, really cool series on early mission Return. So we've got several missionaries who lost their testimonies while on their missions and they either came home early or lied through their mission because they were so scared and came home afterwards having served a mission after losing their faith. And it's going to be a great episode all about helping the church and the culture try and treat these people more humanely. That's what we need. So thanks for joining us. Thanks again to Clay and all those who help out. And we'll see you again soon on Mormon stories. Take care. If I can find the goodbye button. Take care.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
72 Responses
Nails in their own coffins. The more people they remove the worse it becomes for them. They can’t win
dude, they’ve been claiming this since before they killed joe smith…….and it never happened.
So don’t get your hopes up and think they can’t win.
They are in it for the long haul i.e eternity. There’s still time available to find new converts.
“dude, they’ve been claiming this since before they killed joe smith…….and it never happened.”
Yep, you are right adherents today actually continue to teach and follow Joseph Smiths doctrine and is alive an well in the FLDS church. I suppose they never will completely disappear. As for the Brighamite LDS? ya, I suppose they also will never completely die out, either.
Ha! …But they don’t bring in the amount of converts the LDS church brings in.
Yes! What and excellent update. So glad to hear Clay and his family are doing so well. I have I common with him a quick exit. From the time of my faith crisis to my firm decision to resign…just a matter of hours. Also, I remember the night of my crisis using the exact words he used, “the deception ends with me.” Love that mug. I agree, being able to coffee is a real bonus. Thanks, John.
This gives me hope that family members who are TBMs and have been so ugly and judgmental of my sweetheart and me because I stopped believing 40 years ago and he was exed in 92 may – just may -read the CES letter and wake up from the mormon dream. Thank you, Clay for being so authentic and raw. I hope you are able to feel all your feelings and grieve your losses and let anger move through you. You are a good man and I am certain you are helping so many people by telling your story. I am so happy to hear your immediate family is doing so well now that your non-believing kids can be real with you! Hugs to you.
I laughed at first when I saw the tag “Faith Promoting Stories”, but realized after watching this my faith in humanity was slightly improved. Great interview. Thanks Clay. I felt inspired by you and Matt when I watched your first podcast to love my family and focus on what’s important, and I felt that inspiration renewed with this.
Clay, thanks for taking the time to do a follow-up interview. As one who nearly lost my own marriage to the Church, I couldn’t agree more with your views that if one marriage is saved then your podcast appearance was worth it.
It was also great to hear that there are other post-Mormon “Christians” out there. Your experience sounded nearly identical to mine–I still identify as Christian out of a sense of respect for so many of Christ’s teachings but joining another Church is a big “nope” for me and I don’t see that changing in the foreseeable future.
Your genuine kindness tends to make these interviews incredibly powerful. Please keep it up as you continue to interact with still-faithful members!
Thanks again!
thanks for being brave, Clay. & thanks for saying “truth matters!”
for some percent of the population truth totally matters (me included:)
yet some others are not so interested in it (they’re not interested enough to seek it out).
i sought out the history & it took a few years to track things down back in the mid 1980s.
Now it can all come crashing down in a few hours – a different kind of trauma then the 3 or 4 years it took me!
Mr. Runnels did a wonderful job of compiling many years worth of that info for the CES letter.
Thank you for being willing to follow the truth.
Really enjoyed this podcast. We left Mormonism in 2003 and formally resigned in 2008. We, too, can’t seem to commit to another church. However, we found a very liberal Christian church (First Congregational) that we have been attending for 11 years now. They have open communion for anyone, no dress code, highly educated attendees, and a loving, embracing group of people. When they asked us to join their church their attitude was like – we’d love to have you join, but if you’d rather not that is okay, too, we’re just glad you are here. We even teach Sunday School and serve on the Christian Education Board without being members of the Church. Luckily, we were educated in basic Christianity during our final years before exiting from Mormonism. The transition WAS NOT easy, but I was happy we didn’t resort to agnosticism. Good luck to Clay and his family and extended family. I had to laugh at Clay’s love of coffee. The church we attend has a COFFEE hour after the service – they don’t avoid coffee, they actually promote it.
Clay I loved your comment about Coffee. Morning Coffee and the occasional Beer without all the guilt and shame are some of my favorite things about leaving the Church. God Bless!!
Wow, just incredible. Being a never MO, I find it fascinating how beliefs and feelings rule the day. I’m married (23 years) to a returned female missionary, she still believes, but rarely attends or participates, which I’m greatful. If I was a member, I’m sure she would be all gung ho. Obviously, they are still on the BKP mantra of “Sometimes the truth is not very useful.” Really enjoyed both segments, really well done. All the best and continued good fortune and happenings for you and your family.
If it’s possible, even better than the first one. Clay, your authenticity and kind heart shine through in every word. You are a true example of integrity with great courage.
Wait, wait did I miss something?? Clay said he resigned from the church, the SP has no biz summoning him to a church court because he has lost his authority. It’s amazing how leaders feel they can insert themselves in peoples lives when they really don’t belong. Boundaries! Completely unacceptable, I have so much respect for you Clay…fight this and don’t let them demean you, you’re not a member any more.
I didn’t resign until just a few days before the church court would have happened. The court was scheduled for 0700 on 1 May.
Quitmormon.com!
Clay, I agree that you should be offended at the use of the term, “conduct unbecoming a member,” because it is a catch-all phrase that is used to announce the excommunication of various people for various reasons, including child molesters. I’d rather be specified an apostate. Since leaving the church behind, our immediate family has experienced a sense of relief, closeness, openness, and joy in joining the world community, rather than remaining trapped in a small, restrictive, exclusive club. There has been the laying on of guilt and the blaming by TBM extended family for disappointing them and breaking their hearts. It is a tragic and untenable situation for both sides. Even if we can love others without insisting that they share our beliefs, it remains difficult to feel loved by them while being unheard, misunderstood, or judged. It certainly gets in the way of feeling respect, acceptance, and unity when each side assumes the other is deluded. Religion sets countries, cultures, families, and individuals at odds with one another. It definitely has a divisive effect. Instead of “Come, Come Ye Saints,” I am now singing, “Imagine.” John Lennon got it right.
Good.
My great grandma on my Dad’s side is a sessions. Patty Sessions is my relative. When my parents were serving in Nauvoo on a mission we decided to go because we thought we’d never go. We saw her house. Just thought I’d throw this out there, Clay. My mom asked me, can you feel the spirit it is so strong here? I told her no. Not a response she wanted to here.
What an amazing man. Very classy. I love how he stayed above the fray, even when they told him his conduct was “unbecoming.” I would love to hear how things go for him and his family.
Unless I misunderstood, did Clay imply that a DNA test is being or has been conducted and we are awaiting results?
There have been DNA tests, there is another test with the latest technology that is soon to come out. Keep in mind that Windsor and Joseph were both married to Sylvia. It is a tragedy and an abuse of power that Joseph was able to do what he did to so many young girls, children and already married women, let alone what he did to Emma.
Sylvia believed that Josephine was Joseph’s daughter. We will see when this DNA study comes out. Regardless of the outcome Joseph is no prophet and he is no less of a sexual predator.
Thank you Clay, for another insightful interview. As in your first appearance, your kindness and generosity of spirit shine through. You are so fortunate that your immediate family supports you unwaveringly. That the Church sought to discredit you with a description of ‘conduct unbecoming’ is shameful on their part and very un-Christlike. The Church does not seem to understand the importance of truthfulness in regard to their foundational claims. The lack of transparency regarding historical facts and their unwillingness to entertain open inquiry and questions will continue to create problems for the hierarchy as well as a crisis of faith for many. Your example can only serve as a beacon of hope to those who are struggling with these issues. Each time the Church behaves in this way – they loose big time. I wish you all the best as you honorably lead your family into a new day of truth and honesty .
Wonderful comments, and a wonderful outcome. This gives hope to others in similar situations that eventually TBM family members may come around, see and admit to the truth, and again have a loving relationship with the one who has recognized and admitted to the truth, then gotton on with his/her life. Clay, you are obviously a man of integrity…oh how I wish I felt Church leaders were the same! Thanks for your courage. I am sure you will be a catalyst for providing help to many!
Thank you Clay! I m still in but I wish more than anything I could do what you have done. You are a strong example of finding out the truth. I am in because I fear the pain of my younger kids loosing the love of their cousins. Thank you for telling the story of your son. That brought me so much peace.
Hi Ksmith,
Your younger kids will most likely be shunned by their cousins I have seen this and it hurts, no matter what age. I am an old man with lots of advice so please pardon me, but I think you should be more concerned that your kids will grow up and find out on their own. They will loose respect for you and wonder why you didn’t tell them the truth. They may find out from asking too many questions in seminary or they may just have too many doubts to serve a mission. There is a great deal of trauma for teenagers who find out. There are far too many stories of regular teen age angst mixed with faith crisis angst that end tragically or have more long-term consequences than the trauma of being shunned by cousins. I have seen a lot more than I have talked about publicly. It is extremely sad what the church does to youth. I plead with you to consider getting them away from the church while they are young.
Please also consider what may happen if they become fully indoctrinated members. There is also so much trauma and sadness for people who are in the church. At the very least, so much time and money wasted, so much of their lives will be devoted to a fraud. Please do not risk letting that happen.
Good luck to you and your family.
Clay
In your first podcast you exhibited a fresh and hopeful countenance mixed with the startling realization that you found yourself a part of the many people deceived for so many years of their lives. This time your conviction is stronger but quieter. I sense you have had to stand your ground against the onslaught of people who approached you in the name of “love” and “caring” but really had an agenda to bring you to your senses and back to the “fold.” (Of course it is only to make things more settled in their own minds.) It seems you have also had to deal with hurtful and self righteous attitudes from people you love and trusted. Much is said in your silence. And the notice for a disciplinary council of course is sobering. Congrats on keeping your power and removing your name. The Church will not be able to label you and use you as a negative example with any credibility.
Huge life changes take time. You are so fortunate to have your family together in your decisions. I am sure the people who are more likely to “go off the deep end” as John suggests are those who do not have that support. The Church permeates and entangles every aspect of our lives. It takes awhile to find just who one is without the Church telling you. Not only that but I completely relate to your hesitation to join another Church. With the complete sacrifice of ones life to being an “active Mormon” then to find it was all a sham pretty much leaves one with “Been there done that!”
My very best to you and your family. There is so much good in the world and in others to discover. Despite what you have been told all your life the LDS Church does not own the “goodness” of the human spirit.
Mark Twain- “It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”
I appreciate this so much! Thank you Clay and John Dehlin. I listened to and watched the original long podcast, and it was great. So good to hear and listen to Clay as to where he is now. My best to you and your family!
I spent a large portion of my life as a member of a church. I was active, participated in ceremonies, and served in minor positions of authority in that church. Today, I no longer believe in that church, and I don’t attend their meetings. Most members of my family are still believing members of that church. Immediately after I left that church, and up to today, my only feeling about that church is indifference. I can’t imagine any other feeling being normal. I’m not disturbed that I was taught things at that church that I no longer believe in. I’m not disturbed that this church positioned their history and teachings in such a way that sounded appealing. I’m not surprised that the Priests didn’t commonly teach from the pulpit aspects of their history that were unappealing. If I go home for a holiday and my family members invite me to a church meeting, I politely attend and try to appreciate it for what it is. I realize that my family would prefer that I was still a member of their church, but I don’t use my imagination to extend that into a story about my family members ostracizing me. Perhaps I am not paranoid about how they feel about me because I treat them, and their beliefs, with respect. I don’t agree with how their church was founded or how it is being run today, but I don’t say anything to them about it because I know that it would be insulting for me to mock their deeply-held beliefs. I certainly don’t make Facebook posts, or podcasts wherein I laugh at their beliefs and proclaim my current understanding superior to theirs. I don’t make fun of their imperfect founders or current leaders. Behaving thus would obviously be insulting, and not normal familial behavior. The idea of making fun of the deeply-held beliefs of family and friends and expecting them to react in a “Christ-like” manner sounds deeply illogical. Who mocks their family and friends anyway? I certainly would never spend any of my time and money discrediting and attempting to recruit others to join me in my unbelief. I certainly wouldn’t encourage other former members of that church to band together as a community of unbelievers with a dependence upon me as a healer. Seriously!? How does all this emotion around something that ya’ll supposedly don’t care about make any sense?
King, very respectable position… I’m an active member, and though I certainly don’t believe the same way I did before I try to appreciate the good, but I also notice the bad.
What I try to do is just keep the good reject the bad, and politely explain my position when anyone asks it from me. But I am considering sharing my testimony saying what I like and don’t like about the church. I’m yet to do it… but I will very soon.
Wow. Best comment I have read on this board – EVER!
King,
That is so wonderful that you never felt ostracized by your family. So much of what you say is wise. I especially like this part “The idea of making fun of the deeply-held beliefs of family and friends and expecting them to react in a “Christ-like” manner sounds deeply illogical.”
I need to remember that any of my “new” ideas that oppose theirs, can and does put my loved ones in a defensive state.
But your last question, “How does all this emotion around something that ya’ll supposedly don’t care about make any sense?” Is fundamentally flawed to me because you assume that we don’t care about this. I deeply care about it. I care that I dedicated my entire life, and enormous amounts of time and money to a “one true church” that just isn’t. I care that while trying daily to follow the example of Jesus and thinking I was “open minded” and Christ-like, I had in fact been holding some serious prejudices of my own toward people who were not members of my church; namely pity and condescension that I never even knew were in me until I abruptly lost my testimony.
I care so deeply that I was deceived by the institution that I thought stood for truth and righteousness on the Earth. I cared about what people I hold in high regard would think of me now that I have been “deceived”. I am scared of running into friends and acquaintances at the grocery store for fear of them asking me what my current calling is. It causes me deep emotional turmoil to side step these (uncomfortable for me) conversations, because I am trying so hard to balance my need to have personal integrity, with the deep desire to be understood, with the awareness of how jarring and “attacking” it once felt to me, to have someone not agree with my deeply held beliefs. So in short, I am not to a place yet where I even have the luxury (or mental health, perhaps) to NOT care.
Furthermore, I care deeply that this institution, for all its good, is simultaneously causing my extended family so much grief over losing me in the eternities. I care deeply that though I took your original approach, everyone wanted an explanation of *why*, but when I would be explicit in my reasons, I was seen as “under Satan’s power”, not as the human they have always known and loved. I care that I have been attacked for MY beliefs by my own parents, who love me more than anyone on earth, and real damage was done to our relationship. This re-shuffling of boundaries, which I believe is common, has been painful for all of us. We are all trying to navigate these new boundaries, but part of the boundary respect requires a detente that bars me from having the fully open and authentic conversations about the truest of my experiences to very people closest to me.
I feel a lot of hope that some day my experience can be as smooth as yours, but keep in mind that part of what I care deeply about, is my need to defend – even to you-how important this community of support has been during this awful ordeal. I am so thankful that there have been so many other vocal and kind humans who have gone through similar experiences, and are willing to put themselves out there, even at personal cost. Were it not for their podcasts, blogs, facebook posts, etc, I would have had to navigate this horrific loss on my own. Your insinuation that anyone in this community is perpetuating the problem (that they DID NOT CREATE) in order to elevate their status is so mistaken…and I care deeply about that as well.
Anna beautifully said.
King,
Your comments are super condescending. How is it that you feel so comfortable implying that I’m “using my imagination” to create a story of being ostracized? You’ll notice that I didn’t say much about my extended family and all I said about my friends and ward members is how great everyone has been. I think if you listen carefully I’m not blaming them. I am pointing out the fact that the church leads people to extremely culty behaviors and they are still caught up in it. I was caught up in it.
You are good at patting yourself on the back for your respect for your family’s deeply held beliefs. I think you over state how much I am mocking. You seem to think it is a virtue that you would never encourage people to leave the church. You assume way to much when you claim that we don’t care about the church.
I am happy for you that you were able to leave the church and leave it alone. I believed it. I am not willing to accept that the church actively deceived me and my family. I was lied to and I perpetuated the lie. I will not just walk away and act like it is OK. I am respectful to believers. I am not forcing anyone to watch my podcast but there are plenty of people who are curious. They are looking for the truth. They want to find out if they are being lied to. When they look on the internet I want them to see my testimony that the church is not true and that they can be happy if they leave it. They can continue to believe if they want.
My testimony may seem like mocking, I think that is because the church is absurdly not true. It is false on so many levels and in so many ways that it is difficult to talk about it without a bit of a mocking tone. What you call “positioning the church to sound more appealing” I call lies. I will continue to speak out about the lies because I don’t want any of my children or grandchildren to wonder why I didn’t at least try to warn them about mormonism.
Clay
I am sincerely trying to help, and you missed my point; so let me try again. I have a friend (call him Randy) that believes Big Foot exists. He collects pictures, stories, and videos and has them all over his office. He has a website where his believing friends gather to share “evidence”. He occasionally tells me about his new “discoveries” and tries to convince me that Big Foot exists. I don’t believe Big Foot exists, but I don’t think he is “Liar” because he tells me things that I don’t believe are true. That would be absurd! I don’t post Facebook messages or make podcasts to try and make Randy look silly. That would be absurd! The basic principles at play here are Common Courtesy and Social Maturity. When Randy tries to convince me that Big Foot exists, he is just sharing something with me that he is passionate about. He REALLY believes in Big Foot, so it isn’t a “Lie”. Honestly, sometimes when Randy is presenting his “evidence”, he sounds silly to me. But why would I suggest that Randy is stupid or deceived? Who the hell behaves like that?! Randy doesn’t need me to save him from his Big Foot-ness. He’s fine. He’s good. His belief in Big Foot isn’t going to harm my grandchildren, or his. Look, Big Foot exists or it doesn’t. Either Randy, or I, am right – we both can’t be right; but we both recognize that we may never know the absolute truth about Big Foot, and that there is a pile of “evidence” that can be found on either side of the aisle. If I offend Randy, I lose a golf partner – I have one less guy at my funeral – where is the value in that?
PS Now imagine how Randy would feel if I also once passionately believed in Big Foot and actively participated in Randy’s website, contributed toward his research, but now I aggressively attack and criticize him and his social community. How dopey would that be?
PSS The [man] doth protest too much, methinks.
King,
Your Big Foot strawman is way too cute and condescending. Big Foot isn’t giving your friend false hope, he isn’t asking for 10% of his gross income, he doesn’t have a homophobic, rascist, and misogynist doctrine and history. Big Foot isn’t seducing your wife. Big Foot isn’t sending missionaries all over the world to convert people, if your friend quit believing, Big Foot wouldn’t excommunicate him. Big Foot doesn’t divide families and spread hate with is “policies”.
You imply that I insult members, I am very careful to not insult. If pointing out that the church is true is insulting. I make no apology for that. I believed it too. Joseph Smith was a con-man and we are all victims. Anyone who has any family, friend or history with the church is a victim of Joseph Smith.
The church taught me that when I have been warned I should warn my neighbor. If you don’t want to share the gospel that is up to you, but I think you should consider what the church teaches us about our responsibility to one another before you judge me.
PSS The [man] doth protest too much, methinks. What is that supposed to mean?
Again, I am just trying to help. I don’t want you to continue down this path of hatred and hostility until it destroys all of your relationships and you and John are sitting alone in Pioneer Park talking about when you could throw a football over them mountains. One final attempt…
So come on let it go
Just let it be
Why don’t you be you
And I’ll be me
Everything’s that’s broke
Leave it to the breeze
Why don’t you be you
And I’ll be me
Let it go, let it go…
King,
You are very smug and condescending, and you still don’t get it and you avoid my questions. I think it is great that you personally are in a place where you can leave the church and leave it alone. I think that is fine, but I see people being lied to, I see the church continuing to recruit new members using the same lies that I taught as a missionary. I don’t think it is a virtue to stand idly by patting myself on the back because I’m not “insulting current believers”. I would ask you to consider that it is right to stand up to lies, it is ok to “make fun” of people who are lying and conning people out of their time and money.
You continue to assume way too much and I don’t appreciate your condescending concern when you say, “I don’t want you to continue down this path of hatred and hostility until it destroys…”. Again, I ask you, how have my comments been hateful and hostile? The truth is not hateful or hostile, it is just the truth. I have made every effort to make sure that my love and concern for all the victims of this fraud know that I care about them and want the best for them.
Note: posting as a reply to my own comment because it appears we’ve reached the end of allowed comment replies. This is my reply to:
King
May 15, 2016 at 9:05 pm
Again, I am just trying to help. I don’t want you to continue down this path of hatred and hostility until it destroys all of your relationships and you and John are sitting alone in Pioneer Park talking about when you could throw a football over them mountains. One final attempt…
Thanks for this King. It is good to know that someone can be outside the church and still think this way.. Thank you.
It seems possible that you did more good by leaving than the fifty years as a church member.
I think of the couple who was helped by your leaving – the faithful wife who was able to accept her unbelieving husband. And the generations who won’t suffer living a lie.
Thank you & congratulations.
Thank you for this Clay, you speak after my own heart. I wish you and your family a full and happy life.
Thank you Clay, you speak after my own heart. I wish you and your family a happy and full life.
“At some point facts matter.”
Thank you Clay.
Facts do matter, including the fact – which you so critically expressed – that many believing Mormons do reach out to “apostates” with kindness and generosity; and genuinely seek to maintain, and even build, relationships.
I understand that these facts of goodness can be missing in many lives. I agree that goodness can be found everywhere, and that the causal direction is primarily from the hearts of people to religious institutions.
Which is not to say that religions do not inspire and promote compassion and acts of generosity. But, to my mind, they too often to delimit and distort their expression.
Once I separated myself from the Mormon Church I began seeing its doctrine and policies in a new light. They seemed skewed toward serving a monolithic institution even though every justification was couched in terms of individual blessings. Their Heavenly Father and Son began to look like its ventriloquist dummies for promoting its social conservative and financial agendas, all guided by expediencies.
Mosiah 2:17 indirectly relates to the above.
“And behold, I tell you these things … that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.”
With a bit of distance, I saw this as spoiling my humanity by misdirecting my natural affections along a selfish institution-serving detour. I was being asked to be good “only for [my] God,” who, as far as the facts of this church, and this world, are concern, has kept himself profoundly aloof and silent.
Clay, with this interview you are likely helping far more people than you realize, including believing members.
I love his passion and conviction. Beautiful bittersweet story.
Clay, you mentioned a DNA study being done to determine whether your wife is descended from Joseph Smith or Windsor Lyon. When and how can we hear about that when you find out the results? Thanks!
Is it fair to say that the church was going to excommunicate him when all they did was invite him to a disciplinary council?
I would appreciate not exaggerating situations that haven’t or didn’t happen. We don’t know what the outcome of the council would have been. If I were the leader in charge I would like a dialog and a commitment going forward, but I don’t think I would have excommunicated Clay.
Perhaps you could invite the Stake president to offer his point of view, he probably won’t come on the podcast, but I can assure you his intentions were not to excommunicate him. This is the sense that I perceive from hearing these stories. Maybe it could have been a result if he were persistently telling people the church isn’t true… but I believe respect for one another is key.
I’m looking forward to how the church will move forward from all this, something interesting ought to come out of all of this.
It seems reasonable to suppose that excommunication was imminent, though you’re right, we shouldn’t be so quick to assume.
OTOH, I see a pattern emerging: Otherwise kind, humble bishops and stake presidents are ministering to their flock, listening and responding with love as Clay describes, when suddenly (seemingly out of the blue), an urgent message arrives; a disciplinary council needs to be convened ASAP.
I don’t think we can know for certain, but it seems like Church HQ is behind it, notifying and directing local leaders, demanding swift action. Some leaders have even let it slip that their orders indeed came from SL (see Kirk & Lindsay Van Allen’s story, if I’m remembering correctly).
That’s my take, anyway. Someone at the top seems desperate to maintain control, and threatening church discipline seems to be their only recourse (if only to scare future interviewees from appearing on MS).
This is a real inside look at how these go. Witch-hunt/Kangaroo court. No love, no answers, literally a medieval mindset/punishment in the name of Christ! It made me sick to my stomach to watch it. Jeremey must have felt he was in a time warp from the middle ages.
The church still ‘burns-at-the-stake’ (and the stake centers).
Jeremy Runnells excommunication video –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3W42r-Q3t0
Huh? You can assure me that the Stake President wasn’t going to excommunicate me? By the way, you will notice that I never said anything bad about my Stake President or my Bishop. You weren’t here when they visited. Let me tell you, there is no way they wouldn’t have excommunicated me. The point of it all is that they shouldn’t be convening church courts at all. Jesus didn’t excommunicate.
Hi Clay and Jon, this is a really great interview so courageous and personal full of honesty and love, Jon please bring more people on the podcast to talk about their points of view about church history and joseph smith’s life, it’s all all so interesting and many members also non members don’t know much at all about Mormon history or joseph’s life and his personal history within the church, l am so pleased that clay is strong within himself and that his family are all pulling together to support each other, l hope he will keep in touch and talk again some time, very best of luck to clay his wife and family and also to matt his brother in law, l hope his life improves in the coming future. best of luck, thank you again for such a great interview, keep these podcasts coming, Jon, honesty within the church is so important, god bless.
In my eyes, you exhibit conduct becoming a human. Thanks for your integrity.
Clay, did you consider visiting also other websites that acknowledge the difficult issues and offer alternative faithful perspectives?
Such as:
https://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/
I also like leadinglds.com
David,
I didn’t look at that website but I was a member for 50 years. I knew enough of the history that I was perfectly versed in the apologetic answers to “difficult issues”, I had been giving them. After reading the CES letter it became apparent to me that it was time I considered the possibility that Joseph Smith might have been lying and the Book of Mormon might not be true. I had subscribed to the FARMS newsletter, I kept waiting for real evidence of the Book of Mormon. For whatever reason, I was content that there is ZERO evidence of the Book of Mormon. I looked at the FAIR Mormon “debunking”. There is nothing there. I read No Many Knows My History. It is well documented. I read No Ma’am That’s Not History and once again there is nothing that contradicts. I also don’t believe that apologists speak for the church. There are too many contradicting theories. I would look to LDS.org to debunk but the opposite is happening. The church is publishing the story of the seer stone in the Ensign. The Essays are confirming what we were always told were lies. Sorry, the church just isn’t true. Let yourself consider that possibility.
Hi Clay,
I don’t consider it an apologetic website at all, but it offers alternatives in order to maintain a faithful perspective. I think we can agree that as a church the narratives went off a tangent… sort of a broken telephone type of system we members of the church we unknowingly propagating and exaggerating truths.
It would be nice if the church offered certain retractions and a way to move forward with faith, and this is sort of what websites such as: https://athoughtfulfaith.org/, https://mormonmatters.org/, & https://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ offer.
I’m glad you found a better place for you and your family. What I want to do is try to shape the church to be more inclusive and acknowledge that some of the truth claims are not as true as they say they are, but I guess the truth is where do we turn to now? Who has the words of truth and salvation… and can’t I do something to make this church work for everyone.
Any how, I have deep respect for your choice and conviction and perhaps one day I shall do the same… but for now I will continue to follow God’s inspiration for myself. In your case He has led you out of the church… and that is to be honored and respected. It would be nice to have you back, but until you do and if ever that happens… God bless.
Thank you, Clay, for sharing your story, and also for mentioning quitmormon.com. I had never heard of it before today but plan on using it just as soon as I submit this comment! What a wonderful—and needed—service Mark is providing.
And John: a million times thank you for continuing to provide a forum for so many people to share their stories. I discovered Mormon Stories pretty late (just a couple of years ago) but have listened to 200+ episodes—including some of the earliest ones—and have been so impressed with every one.
For me one of the most touching moments of this interview is when you are discussing emotions and you (John) say “we don’t choose them, and it’s healthy to talk about them.” Such a simple thing to say, and maybe obvious to lots of people, but I think it speaks to one of the most important things you do, which is helping people to talk about their emotions, and to understand and embrace a diversity of emotions that can’t—and shouldn’t—be boiled down to simple dichotomies of good vs. evil, light vs. darkness, etc. Thank you thank you and keep up the great work.
Ha! I knew it!! You left because you wanted to drink coffee! In your British Museum mug, no less! 😜
My thoughts exactly
In mixed-faith marriages, is it better to keep playing along and trying to make it work, or to leave and risk destroying my marriage?
Hi Playing Along,
My wife came to me with the CES letter on her phone. She had the look of Eve in her eye. I could tell she had seen things she couldn’t unsee. I don’t believe we have the right in our marriages to refuse to share what is troubling one another. I had no choice but to read the CES Letter and once read, you can no longer, “just believe” you either become an apologist or an exmormon. I know it isn’t this simple for everyone but it was for me. I am sorry for you and your spouse, I can imagine what life is like not being able to discuss your faith crisis with your best friend. I can only suggest that you continue to have open conversations and plead with your spouse to consider the evidence. Good luck to you both.
Hi Clay. It’s soooo nice to hear someone so logical, & forthright. My jaw hit the floor when you mentioned Redmond utah in your first interview. My dad grew up there and I too visited growing up. To this day I love going there. The connection made you’re story much more personal to me. Thank you for validating my thoughts and emotions reading church history. And thank you for still having all the wonderful characteristics my favorite people and my dear family have. Most of all thank you for sharing.
Clay – would u mind shooting me an email? Have a couple quick questions for ya.
Thanks for sharing your story and personal situation, much respect.
Mountainmankoskie@gmail.com
Clay,I especially appreciated the way you framed what happened: “I found out the church isn’t true” vs. “I lost my faith”, or “I no longer believe”. You kept the onus exactly where it belongs, on the Church. The Church is the one making the truth claims which are demonstrably false.
Your clear calling out of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young as creepy predators was so powerful, I got tears of revulsion and sadness.
I’m so grateful to be free, it’s like joining the human race. I’ve been out for almost 20 years, and my ex and child have also been spared but I still need encouragement to be clear with my tbm family and not just hide out. Thanks for your transparency and desire to share the good news.
Clay says he doesn’t foresee any more podcasts, and I say – why not? He’s got a great voice, a passionate presence and inspiring story-telling ability. He would be great on more podcasts. He’d be a great guest and a terrific substitute host if J.Dehlin needed one. Wonderful follow-up podcast. Thank you.
Hi Leslie,
That is very nice of you. I admit that I am still willing to do whatever I can to help. I admire people like John, Jeremy and Sandra who are devoting their time and talent to exposing the truth. I support them because I wouldn’t be here without them. I have a little taste of the criticism that comes from being a public person in this fight for truth. No one has really questioned my motives but they question theirs. I don’t like that. The message of truth needs people who are willing to advance it full-time.
I said that on the podcast because I want people to know that I am just a regular member, if I can leave, you can too. If I can leave and publicly (if only briefly) correct the false testimony I have born, then perhaps it will help others do the same. I think there is a place for full-time public faces of the movement for truth. I want to keep seeing John, Jeremy and Sandra out there sharing the truth. I think a little of me goes a long way, but if there is anything I can ever do to help them, I’ll do it. My truth sharing activities will probably be much more one-on-one and less public in the future.
Thank you again,
Clay
I would like to say thank you to Clay and his brother-in-law Matt. Thank you for putting into words why I can’t just sit back and say nothing. I was a Young Women’s President at a very young age. I bore my testimony regularly. I was all in, and it is so important for my self-respect that I am able to be heard and known as no longer a part of the church. And because of Doctrine-not cause “satan” finally got to me. I want my testimony to go up there with the rest, fixing my mistaken, innocent testimonies from before. I know this church is a cult and hurts families. And that is why people get out and then “can’t leave it alone”. Life is so much happier on the other side where we’re allowed our basic human rights without any shame or guilt. And our love for others that drives us TO the church is what also drives us to sometimes wish others would leave as well. Some never will. I thought I never would though, and I bet a lot of people thought you never would…so… there’s that to keep in mind. I have found healing through books, I am an avid reader and would like to share some of my favorites that helped shape the new life philosophy I have that you can be good with or without a god, so let’s just do it. Books: Good Without God: What a Billion Nonreligious People Do Believe, Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Other Abusive Relationships, and Raising Freethinkers. I will say for me, at first, it was hard to imagine not believing in God, and I could see from the last podcast that you are not in that place either. Keep being patient with yourself, like you said there’s so much still just to research within the confines of the church. When you are ready to consider the Bible I highly recommend reading: The Year of Living Biblically: One Man’s Humble Quest to Follow the Bible as Literally as Possible. It’s a comedy writer, but he does real and compassionate research into many different religions and beliefs and has fascinating insight into the Bible. The most important thing, and you seem to already get that is that YOU CAN STILL BE A GOOD PERSON AND NOT BE A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH. Good for you for being open-minded. Good for you for your conviction to honesty. Good thoughts your way on the rest of your journey.
Clay,
I am so amazed at your story. I am married to a fantastic man who has really been hurt deeply by my leaving the church. I am often confused as to why certain people hear the same information and they feel it is a matter of integrity to leave, while others hear the same information and are able to dismiss it. I am just happy that in the case of your family that everyone is on the same page. I am saddened by the pain and misunderstandings that have occurred on both sides of this in my family because our personalities have not allowed us to see this the same and we are stuck with a very uncomfortable divide. I love my family and wish we didn’t have this emotional and spiritual disconnect from each other. But I REALLY appreciated your stating that you still love Christ and HE isn’t the one who has hurt you. I feel the same way. I too have no desire to go to another church, but I believe my Savior loves me and understands my heart. Thanks for sharing your story. Best wishes to you and your family.
I have SO much admiration for Clay. It takes so much courage to be open minded in this church. They instill such a fear factor in people that it is so sad that intelligent, educated people do not know such obvious truths. You do not need to dig deep to see that JS was an absolute and total fraud. He was a very imaginative 14 year old boy that was not having success in his treasure seeking. He saw his father and his family struggling to make ends meet financially and was a very smart, resourceful, creative boy…I’ll sure give him that. But a prophet? NO WAY! Read, educate yourselves…the truth is so easy to find and it is so sad that the lds church suppresses communication/open debate. If they are the one true church, let’s discuss it! It is so devastating that Matt is living his life like this. He obviously loves his family very much but to me, he seems so sad over this whole thing. You can tell that he is looking for a way to lighten his load and just live the best he can but he is so young still and life is worth living openly. The other factor is that this cycle will continue with his children. I admire Clay so much for facing the music and being open minded enough to see the truth. Jesus loves all and would want families to be happy, not live in fear that they would lose their families for speaking up.
Clay —
If I had had anything to do with who you have become, I would be proud.
Impressed with how you handled your situation.
Clay,
After suspecting my husband of loosing his faith and testimony for years. He finally felt he could come to me and share his feelings about a month ago. I am so grateful that he felt he could finally talk to me, but I fear I am not enough… he needs someone to talk too. I want you to know you said something in your words that resounded inside of me (in not so many words), we can love God, we can love Christ, we can be a family, we can be happy without being apart of the church. Also it’s not about partying and wanting to leave the church because you’ve decided to “sin”… You’ve decided that truth is black and white. He started his journey reading the essays which I led him too, in all honesty thinking this would give him the answers. Full disclosure I hadn’t read them at the time either. But instead of helping him answer his questions, they produced more and more and subsequently has led us to this point now, where is ready to resign from the church. Because of the essays alone and reading the material the church itself has put out he has made this choice, not by reading “anti mormon” literature. That troubles me… I’m trying to sort my own feelings out now, because my husband knows so much more than, he served a mission, he’s read the bom several several times… so I’m trying to become as educated as he is, and I know this is important now more than ever because of your words. I’m trying to not let fear guide my actions… I am worried about the future and what it holds, I don’t know how to live without the responsibility, the guilt, the striving, the doing… but I find solace that you see God’s hand on your life and God’s hand and the church are not mutually exclusive.
I wish we could talk in person. We’re a new couple in that we’ve been married or sealed for 6 years with 2 kids. I don’t know how to navigate these waters. And I’m full of fear. But I’m hanging on that God and the Gospel, that Jesus and the Gospel are not mutually exclusive. Because I treasure my relationship with them. My anchor in my testimony is Heavenly Father.
I hope this finds you well…
Holly
Hi Holly,
I have not forgotten those early days of finding out that the church was hiding its history. Going from fully-believing, never-doubting, to seeing clearly that it has been a complete fraud was traumatic. That process unfolded over just a couple weeks. Our Mormon Story 616-617 was filmed just six weeks after I found out. It has been almost eight months now. It is still difficult. I would be happy to meet you and your husband. You are welcome in my home. We have met many of the people we have helped and it has been uplifting for all of us. You can reach me at claychristensen@hotmail.com.
One of the greatest joys I have experienced from doing these interviews is the knowledge that I have helped to unite couples who were struggling with different stages of the faith crisis.
I hope to see you and all couples caught up in this united. Good luck to you and your husband.
His integrity and fairness is obvious. He is not vindictive or seeking attention, he just tells his story and sincerely wants to help others with their faith crisis, especially if they are having family issues because of doubts about the church.
Instead of just leaving him alone and letting him fade into inactivity, the church just had to excerise their “muscle heads” and try to excommunicate him. Clay took the high road and as Clay said, they are in middle ages using excommunication as weapon instead of love and kindness.
How do I find the original interview? This link isnt working for me, and I dont see it in the Dec 2015 archives.
https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/thirteen-years-of-silence-matt-elggren-clay-christensen/