Welcome and Panel Introductions

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:00:00] Whoo.

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Let's start with applause for our panel tonight. Welcome to Mormon Stories Live. My name is John Dehlin. I'm very happy that you have joined us today. It's April 6th. I think that's an important day. Isn't there something about that day? I'm kidding. Yeah. Yeah. We're here on the anniversary of the LDS Church, actually, of its founding and on Jesus birthday. Is that right?

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:00:27] And the FLDS apocalypse.

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Okay.

Guest [00:00:30] They're all.

John Dehlin [00:00:30] Yeah. It's an important. It's an auspicious day. Again, my name is John Dehlin from Mormon Stories Podcast, and we are here super excited for this topic. Very grateful that you guys have all joined us tonight. The title of this panel is Black Mormon Lives Matter.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] And I would like to begin by just giving a tiny bit of history on this topic. So, you know, and we're going to get into this a little bit, and I'm going to introduce my guests in just a second. But just to kind of give a little background. Early in Mormon Stories history, I knew that the blacks in the priesthood issue was important, and so I got Darren Smith on, who had written a book about race in the church, just to talk about the historical perspective. And I kind of felt like I had done my duty for race in the church. I'm admitting right now how awful that sounds now, but at the time, that's kind of how I felt.

John Dehlin [00:01:31] So we've covered it. Now we can move on to other important issues. And a few years ago, several really cool groups started emerging on the Mormon Internet, including feminist Mormon, women of color, and other groups that maybe we'll talk about tonight. Sort of saying, hey, you know what? The discussion's not quite over yet. There's still a lot of important things to talk about. And at that point, I was so caught up in all the other things going on, it just. It didn't even register for me.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] Then I started feeling like there was some real tension starting to stir, not just towards me and Mormon Stories, but just in the blogger knuckle at various events with Feminism with K. Kelly, with sort of every aspect of discourse around Mormonism, race would come up in really heated, you know, spirited exchanges. And it got to the point where I was almost starting to feel scared to talk about it. It's like, I knew we needed to talk about this, but I don't know how because, man, I feel like if I talk about it wrong, you know, I. You know, it could be embarrassing, frankly. So fast forward to last year, around August, I'd say I'm presenting at a Utah Valley University event.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] And I'm talking about post Mormons. And it just occurs to me to, you know, I'm thinking about how this point I wanted to make, which was that many people who leave the church consider the term anti Mormon to be a slur.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] So in a moment of brilliance, or in truth, embarrassment and a little bit of shame, I'll own I decided that I was going to vocally compare using the term, referring to the term anti Mormon as sort of the ex Mormon equivalent to using the N word. So I said it. I didn't actually say the N word, but I said, you know, and there's something in me that just, like, said, that was dumb. You know what I mean? But I was like, oh, you know, people understand what I mean. And I. I finished the presentation, went well.

John Dehlin [00:03:50] I think you were the first person to stand up Misha, probably. But. But Misha was there, and Misha McGriggs, and she very diplomatically, very generously took the time to sort of explain to me why that's deeply, terribly offensive to people of color, specifically African Americans.

John Dehlin [00:04:17] And I feel like I responded respectfully back and thanked Misha and decided I was going to try never say anything that awful again. Well, within, like, 10 seconds, somehow it got onto the Facebook that I had done this, and it was during a really kind of tough time.

John Dehlin [00:04:37] You know, other things were going on in my life. And just imagine, like, this 500, and I'm exaggerating, like, this 500 comment thread about how incredibly racist John, you know, ignorant, foolish, dumb John Dehlin is, you know, a lot of friends on that thread. And it was deeply hurtful. You know, now, no pity for me, right? Like, that's not the point. But the point is I learned even more how difficult it is to talk about race, not just in America, but in Mormonism. And it's really sensitive. And I, like, I just went into my shell, tried to apologize as much as I could, probably made it worse, but knew then that we needed to have another discourse.

John Dehlin [00:05:26] Another thing that happened was I interviewed Juliana Villegas Haas, who is a wonderful woman from Belgium who is black, but not in any way African American. And I thought, hey, I'm going to start talking about race. Well, it turns out that interviewing someone from Belgium who is black is very different than talking about race, race relations in the United States and in the church. And so even that was sort of controversial. And what I found is that this is just a really tough topic, not just in Mormonism, not just in Utah, but in America and probably the world to talk about.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] I did interview Darren Smith again, sort of on the 10 year anniversary of my interview with him about race in the priesthood. Darren's gone on to get his PhD and he has written this wonderful book about being a black athlete at byu. I highly recommend the interview and I just released it last week. And even that has been fascinating because just 10 minutes into the interview I tell the story as part of the podcast and Darren says this wonderful line. He says, john, newsflash, let's just get this out on the table. You know, all white people are racist. Okay, now that hit me really hard, right?

John Dehlin [00:06:47] But I, you know, I've been around just enough to know that I need to just stop and listen and understand, right? And so I, you know, I just took it and I learned and I listened. He explained it. It made perfect sense to me. Put this release this podcast out on, on Mormon Stories. It's the first thing that comes. Have you guys seen the comments? Did you guys follow that at all?

Mica McGriggs [00:07:07] I haven't seen it.

John Dehlin [00:07:08] I'm not, I turned the thing off after 10 minutes because Darren said this and how racist it is for him to assume that all, you know, and really interesting sort of responses. Anyway, I'm really committed to trying to talk about this and I'm going to make mistakes and I'm going to blunder and I'm just going to admit that and own that from the start because I think that's super important. And so what I did is I was talking to Lindsay Hanson Park. Can we give Lindsay a hand? Because she's freaking amazing.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] You will know Lindsay. She's sort of one of the heads of Sunstone Educational Foundation. Sunstone has an amazing symposium every year in Salt Lake City, late July this year they hold symposiums all over the United States and in England. Turns out.

John Dehlin [00:08:00] But Lindsay is phenomenal. But you also will know her from her feminist Mormon Housewives podcast from Year of Polygamy podcast. And now she's doing a podcast called Color of Heaven, which I struggle to remember in my interview with Darren. And I embarrassed myself because it took me a while to remember that. But she's covering race for a year in a podcast just like she did in Mormonism, just like she did on your. With Misha, Misha's with me with Misha and Gina Colvin. Is there anyone else?

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:08:28] It's the three of us and we interview scholars and experts and super good podcast.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] So check it out. But Lindsay was kind enough to organize this panel and to put together sort of an outline for the second half of this show. So, Lindsay, thank you so much for joining us and for being willing to help us organize this event.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:08:49] Yeah, thanks for having this conversation, John. And what I want to say before we get into introducing the panelists is just, you know, I get that. That people listening to this might feel defensive, especially as white people. And like you have said, we have both been there. We've been there in a public way when we say really dummy things. And of course we're gonna say dummy things. Cause I grew up in white Mormon Utah, mostly. Right. So that makes sense. But I want to acknowledge that these panelists here today are doing us a huge favor. They're giving us a gift, and so we can get defensive and choose to throw that gift away.

Reflecting on Race and White Privilege

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:09:26] And that's our privilege. Right. But I would strongly encourage everyone listening to not throw that away. These people are taking time and energy, and I don't think we can understand, especially as white people, the energy that it takes to live in a brown body and to have to be around predominantly white Mormons all the time, constantly explaining your existence, constantly trying to educate people. So the fact that they are here educating us is a really big deal. And they're giving us a gift. And so I just wanted to acknowledge that. So thank you.

John Dehlin [00:09:58] Let's give them a round of applause. And I'm going to add, even before I introduce you guys, I've taken enough sort of. I've been exposed maybe at least to enough kind of multicultural diversity stuff to know that in some ways, it's almost. I don't want to say offensive or disrespectful. To ask anyone to sort of represent their race in a way. It could be even traumatic. Does anybody want to talk to that really quick? Have you heard sort of that. It's just. It's something to be really sensitive about when you're. When people are sort of put in that place of having to explain to the rest of us.

Mica McGriggs [00:10:32] Well, I think often, especially if you have a person of color who is in a predominantly white environment, particularly with. If you're talking about children who often. That's the case. That was my case. I grew up in a very white environment.

Mica McGriggs [00:10:49] To ask that person to speak to the experience of millions of people is exhausting. And it's reductive because it's asking an entire culture to be reduced to one person's experience. And so that's like, well, obviously you would be the authority on it, because this is who you are. So teach me about all of the millions of other of you who look like you. And so it's reductive and it's exhausting. And especially when we're talking about children, which this happens a lot to children in schools, at church, that is, that's not their job. They're kids. So I think that's. Yeah, I definitely, you know, I can speak to things that I know about academically, and then I can speak to my experience. But to speak for all black people or all, you know, black women even, it's just. Yeah, can't do that. Right.

John Dehlin [00:11:46] Thank you, Misha. All right, so without any further ado, I would like to introduce tonight our three panelists. And I'm just going to give a really brief introduction. And then when we talk about their stories, we're going to have them kind of dig a little bit deeper into who they are and what their experiences are. The. The first half is going to be a little bit about each of their stories, and then the second half, we're going to dive into sort of important questions about race relations, the experience of people of color, both within Utah, within Mormonism, and maybe even broader in the United States.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] So with that, I'm going to introduce first Misha McGriggs. Misha. Sometimes they pronounce. Mispronounce their name. Some people say it's pronounce it Micah, but it's Misha, right? Misha McGriggs. She after my own heart. She's a PhD candidate in counseling psychology at Brigham Young University. She has been accepted to an internship at University of Washington in Seattle, which is a super prestigious internship, by the way. I'll just say she blogs for the Huffington Post about race and religion, and we're super excited to have her here. So let's give Bisha McGriggs a challenge. I'd also like to introduce Tanisha Zandamela.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:13:12] Zandamela.

John Dehlin [00:13:12] Zandamela. She's a student at BYU as well, studying sociology in French. She's the author of Just Pick One Stories of a Biracial Girl. And let's give Tanisha our welcome as well. Thank you, Tanisha, for joining us. And then we have Sammy Galvan.

John Dehlin [00:13:31] He's a queer Guatemalan immigrant, activist and neuroscientist. He is a 2014 Point Scholar, which Sammy told me is maybe one of the most prestigious academic scholarships that an LGBT person can receive in the world. I believe he has particular interest in healthcare, theology, queer theory, and baked goods. So let's welcome Sammy Galvez.

John Dehlin [00:14:00] Excellent. So I thought it would make Sense, because this is Mormon stories to just talk about each of your experiences and specifically as it relates to your experience with race and Mormonism. So, Misha, if it's all right, let's start with you, and let's just take five minutes and. And talk to us a bit about kind of your upbringing in the church and how kind of race played a role and a bit of, like, what that was like for you.

Panelists Share Their Backgrounds and Identities

Mica McGriggs [00:14:31] Sure. So my mom is white. She's from Montana, and my dad is black, and he's from New Orleans. And they met and got married and had me, and they got divorced when I was about five. And so I was raised primarily with my mom and my grandparents, my white mom and my white grandparents in white neighborhoods and white schools and going to white congregations. And so, you know, oftentimes I was the only black kid in the school and, you know, definitely at church. And so my experience was one of being. And again. Right. I didn't have the language at the time. Now I have it to understand my experience. I had a good life. I had, you know, everything I needed

Tinesha Zandamela [00:15:23] and a lot of what I wanted.

Mica McGriggs [00:15:24] And I had loving family and we, you know, Mormonism, you know, as far as, you know, just kind of going to church and going to sports and, you know, doing good in school and all of that. It was a good way to grow up. There were things that happened to me that I didn't know how to explain, but they felt icky.

Mica McGriggs [00:15:45] So I've always had kind of a big personality and could carry, you know, speak. And so I would, you know, give a talk in Church at 12 years old, and, you know, I would have 20 people come up to me after and just so articulate, and you're so well spoken and all of that. And I was like, yes, that's, you know, that's what you want. You want validation. You want your, you know, we want our egos fed. And. And so I was popular.

Mica McGriggs [00:16:12] And at the same time, as it felt good, it felt off. Like, something about that, but I couldn't put my finger on it. I just knew that it was like,

Tinesha Zandamela [00:16:20] it felt good and it felt bad

Mica McGriggs [00:16:21] at the same time. I remember when I was 14, was

John Dehlin [00:16:25] part of that getting extra attention was that you thought maybe you got more attention than.

Samy Galvez [00:16:29] Yeah.

Mica McGriggs [00:16:29] Oh, I mean, I definitely. Everyone knew me, right? Everyone knew who I was, and everyone liked me. Me. No one didn't like me. People were. People loved me in a way that was very tokenizing. Misha will entertain you. She's funny. She'll, you Know, it was kind of like dance and show us, you know, show us your talents and things like that. And so you get attention and so that feels good. But at the same time, there was something off about it because it was different than other kids. So when I was 14, we went on Trek, Pioneer Trek. Many of you probably went on Pioneer Trek. We went to Martin's Cove.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:17:11] And

Mica McGriggs [00:17:14] I could not put my finger on which. I'm not a wilderness person, so I knew some of it was, I don't want to be in the wilderness pulling a handcart through the desert. That doesn't sound like my jam.

Mica McGriggs [00:17:24] But something more than that felt off. And what I realize now is that it was like, this would not have been my story. I would have been the slave in this story. Like, no, I wouldn't have been part of the family and I wouldn't have been one of the kids or one of the wives. I would have been the slave. That would have been my story. And so even though I didn't know that at 14, I could feel something was off about dressing up like a pioneer and trekking through, through the wilderness.

Mica McGriggs [00:17:55] And so, I mean, that's just one example. But I code switch a lot and that's something that's very natural to me. And so code switching is a linguistic form of kind of changing your intonation or your dialect. And it's something that happens.

Mica McGriggs [00:18:13] It's not of my choosing conscious. I don't choose, like, now I'm going to sound stupid, stereotypically black, and now I'm going to sound white. That's not the conversation that happens in my head. It's just something that happens. And I would notice that when I would code switch, I got a lot more attention. People really liked that, as though I was, I mean, I'm a funny person, but what I realized is that people were more than laughing with me, they were kind of laughing at me. And so that's something that I became kind of self conscious about was my, was my code switching. So there are things like that.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] Stereotypically black sometimes, Is that what you mean?

Mica McGriggs [00:18:49] Yeah, so I mean, you know, I mean, it just happened. I just noticed it like 30 seconds ago. It happened just a little bit. And so. And that's not something it just, it just is that way. It's, it's changing vernacular, essentially.

Mica McGriggs [00:19:06] And most people do that to an extent, right? Like, we talk one way when we're at work, then we talk when we're home with our friends. But for people of color, for survival purposes, we have to do it even more than that.

Mica McGriggs [00:19:22] So those are just a few things. I mean, I had a good life and was a little bit. I knew that I was black, and we had Afrocentric literature in the house. And I read about slavery and the civil rights movement and all of that. My mom was made sure that I had access to those things. But again, I didn't have the language. And so my racial identity development was a little bit slower than maybe other black kids did.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] That come on. In college at byu, I went to

Mica McGriggs [00:19:56] college at nau Northern Arizona University. And that's where a lot of it kind of really got going. And actually I lived in my junior year, I lived in London and. And that was having a black. I never had a black teacher, never had a black instructor, and I had a black. They have a lecturer and they have a tutor in every class in London, and the lecturer was from Pakistan, but the tutor was black. And that was who I spent a lot of time with, was the tutor, basically like the TA for the class, the graduate assistant. And she was black. And I had never had a black instructor.

Mica McGriggs [00:20:32] And that was a point. If we want to talk about racial identity development a little bit later, that was a point of contact, which is important in racial identity development for me. Seeing I'm seeing myself in this woman and we're having this, you know, and so. And now I'm just an activist who, you know, is too much to handle.

John Dehlin [00:20:52] Okay. Okay, good. All right. Thank you for sharing some. Just a few things about your background. That was great. Tanisha, why don't you go next?

Tinesha Zandamela [00:21:01] Yeah. So my parents met at Ricks College, which is now byu Idaho. And then they moved to Provo and had me. So I'm a BYU baby. My dad is from Mozambique. He immigrated here. He came on a mission to Philadelphia and then ended up staying here on scholarship to Ricks College and then byu. My mother is white.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:21:25] Her ancestry is Scandinavian, Swedish speaking Finns. So it's a very different. I grew up especially within the LDS Church, with two very opposite backgrounds, I guess. So when we talked about family history, I did have pioneers and I also had my dad, who was from a completely different continent. I think one thing that was difficult as far as growing up in the church and just growing up in general and understanding racial identity was my dad.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:22:04] His culture was completely different than African American culture. I feel like I learn a lot. I'm learning about African American culture, and a lot of people expected me to understand or teach them, and I didn't have anything to teach It's a completely different culture. Absolutely. And I have always identified as biracial. That's been something that has been really interesting, especially within the LDS Church. I think sometimes we like to put people in boxes and say, this is.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:22:42] I think Mormons are kind of good at that. Good and bad. And sometimes there's a dichotomy. And I think, especially for me, people wanted me to pick one race and when I didn't, it was a huge deal. I remember, actually.

John Dehlin [00:22:57] So are you. How would they.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:23:00] I think.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] How would you experience that pressure?

Tinesha Zandamela [00:23:03] Right. So, for example, I was in Young Women's once and someone said, tanisha, you're black. Right. I said, no, I don't racially identify as that. I am half black, but. And I remember her looking at me and saying, okay, you're black. So. And just continued with the conversation because I think it's easier to pick one in that sense for other people.

John Dehlin [00:23:27] How does that feel when someone does that? Because I'm guessing there's a lot of people here who are like, okay, let's, you know.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:23:33] Yeah, I think it's frustrating for me. I have no problem with people thinking that I'm black, especially in the us that's what I pass as. But if I tell someone I racially identify as biracial and then they don't accept that, that's really frustrating for me because it ultimately becomes what white people want is comfortable for them. Alright, I want to call you black. That's comfortable for me. That's it.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:24:07] But I grew up being very active in the church and was very important to me. But I had a lot of struggles as far as fitting in, especially as it concerns beauty standards. There were a lot. I've always been really interested in fashion and makeup and things that are very feminine. It was very difficult for me. When you go to a young women's activity and everyone's doing hair or they're doing makeup and you're the only person who doesn't have their shade there. You sit on the side and you know, you have to eat chips and watch while everyone else does their hair. There's no. There wasn't any hair things.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:24:42] For me, there wasn't. Like, no one knew what to do with my hair, with my makeup. And so I felt really isolated from a lot of church activities, actually, because I couldn't really connect in that sense. And that was something that I really liked and I wanted to connect to other people in that way.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] Kids are really sensitive to being sort of different in any way, especially at that age.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:25:08] Right, exactly. Exactly. But, I mean, I knew I was different. And that was also difficult, is recognizing that you're different and recognizing that you're being treated differently because of your race. And I grew up around white people in predominantly white areas, so a lot of me wanted to push back on that a lot. If I thought in my head, like, I know someone's being racist right now. In the back of my head, it's like, no, you can't think that. No, they're not. They're being nice. You don't want to bring that up. Especially with my friends, they say, hey, that's a little bit racist.

John Dehlin [00:25:45] It's kind of a buzzkill, right? It's like a downer.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:25:49] I don't even know if it's. I don't think it's a buzzkill so much as. It's just.

John Dehlin [00:25:52] If you were to bring it up. Right.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:25:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:53] No.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:25:54] Well, I think it's a buzz kill, but I think it's more than that. I think people are incredibly offended. I've had many friends say that's the worst thing that you can say to someone is being called a racist as a white person. Which is.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:26:06] Yeah, just as, like, as a white person growing up who had friends of color. I remember these conversations coming up, and I was the white girl in your ward being like, what's the big deal? Let's just come comb my hair. And so I think our, like, our thing with this. With this word racist, it. I mean, it took me until probably two years ago with, you know, working on these conversations to be like, oh, when you say racist like that, that means more than, like, in my mind, it's like, you know, this horrible villain. And I think there. There's often this distinction, like, I'm just kidding around. Like, don't throw racism in there. I'm just making a joke. I didn't mean anything by it. And I would imagine you probably felt that a lot like, dismissed when you felt uncomfortable and they said, oh, get over. Just lighten up. I didn't mean it like that.

John Dehlin [00:26:58] And we're gonna define the term and talk about what the term actually means as well. Cause I think a lot of us think, oh, you have to wear a sheet, you know, over your head to be racist. Or you have to, you know, say, you know, call someone a bad name. And. And for some reason, those are the only types of things I think many of us in white culture feel are horrible or damaging or difficult. And it's important to understand what that word means. So we'll talk about it. Thank you, Tanisha. Sami. Sammy or Sami, which do you.

Samy Galvez [00:27:28] Sami comes out Sammy.

John Dehlin [00:27:30] All right, Sami, tell us your story a little bit.

Samy Galvez [00:27:32] Okay, so my name is Sami Galvez and I became latino back in 2009 when I arrived in the United States,

Guest [00:27:41] I,

Samy Galvez [00:27:43] I grew up in Guatemala City. Guatemala. Where I was not Latino. Guatemala, right, yeah. Oh, I hate that word. But yes, I, I usually Guatemalans don't mind that word, but I don't like it. I just. Isn't that personal?

John Dehlin [00:27:57] Isn't that what they call each other?

Samy Galvez [00:27:58] Yeah, it is, but I, it's, I

John Dehlin [00:28:00] serve my mission in Guatemala.

Samy Galvez [00:28:01] So, yeah, it's, it's not bad. Don't worry.

John Dehlin [00:28:03] Okay.

Mica McGriggs [00:28:03] Okay.

Samy Galvez [00:28:04] But I, Yeah, so I grew up in Guatemala. I grew up as a third generation member of the church in a family that's very active in the church. When I was about two years old, my father got called to be a bishop. When I was five, he got called to be a stake president. When I was 16 and a half, 17, he got called to be a mission president. And he's currently serving as a 70 in the fourth quorum. So he's an area 70 in Guatemala, there are five area 70s and I'm related to three of them. And my grandfather is currently the president of the Guatemala Quetzaltenango Temple.

Samy Galvez [00:28:43] So when we talk about an aristocracy, I'm it. And it's interesting because in Guatemala, race works differently. And I am. In Guatemala, there is also colorism. So I did, I was, you know, often made fun of because of my dark skin color. However, I was not the victim of racism because people recognized that I was mestizo, which is the privileged class, because I speak Spanish. That's my native language. I don't speak an indigenous language. I don't have an accent when I speak Spanish. And so I was part of.

John Dehlin [00:29:20] You talk about what the word mestizo means, please.

Samy Galvez [00:29:22] Mestizo is a mix of European and Native American.

John Dehlin [00:29:27] And when we say Native American, do you mind describing what we mean by that?

Samy Galvez [00:29:31] Well, in Guatemala, one of the 23 different ethnic groups that are from Mayan origin. So in my case, I am actually. So this is what's interesting because my family has done some family history and we have yet to find an indigenous person in my background. We have some Italian, we have Spaniards, but it's all over my face.

Samy Galvez [00:29:58] And so, you know, it's interesting because I have yet to find these ancestors and I don't know how to claim them. And I think part of the issue is that in Guatemala we aspire to whiteness. And so I don't know if it was the fact that my family was trying so hard to be as European as possible. And, oh, look, but we're Italian. Oh, but we're also Spanish. Look at our last name. Galvez de Leon, clearly from Leon y Castilla. Right. In Spain. And so it was this clinging to whiteness. And just even though my face is brown and even though if I were to be in Spain, in Castilla Leon, I would certainly stand out as a foreigner and as someone who does not belong there.

Samy Galvez [00:30:42] And so I'm in the middle of these circumstances because my mom did grow up in the Guatemalan highlands, and she speaks, which is a language that's only spoken by 40,000 people in this little town. So I cannot claim, you know, to be a Spaniard, clearly. But I also, in Guatemala, cannot claim to be a part of an indigenous population, because my native language is Spanish. It's not indigenous language. And I am certain. And certainly I have not ever experience the racism that exists there. So that's kind of my complicated position as a privileged person in regards to race in Guatemala, however, victim of colorism at the same time.

Samy Galvez [00:31:27] And then coming to the United States, I'm finding out that that's not at all how it works in here. And suddenly all of these different nuances and all these different histories and all these different groups come together into Latino. And you're there standing in immigration and they ask you, check a box. White, black, Native American or Pacific Islander, Asian, Latino. Like, I'm not any of them.

Samy Galvez [00:31:55] And so that was interesting. In regards to the church, there's also, you know, there also tend. The wider you are. You know, the church leadership tends to be a little wider. Not many indigenous people even. I'm talking about in the microcosm, like cosmos of Guatemala.

John Dehlin [00:32:14] That was a subtle, subtle statement.

Samy Galvez [00:32:16] Yeah. So, I mean, it translates down to Guatemala. And it's interesting because when we had a 70 visit, because my dad was a stake president, so sometimes we had 70s come visit when they were white, more people would show up and people would pay closer attention.

Mica McGriggs [00:32:31] And.

Samy Galvez [00:32:32] And it was this thing of, oh, wait, he came all the way from Salt Lake, where they know what they're doing. So. And then whenever they had.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] Why are you laughing?

Samy Galvez [00:32:43] Whenever we had some, like, you know, another Latin American show up, people would be like, oh, but he doesn't know what he's talking about.

John Dehlin [00:32:51] He's Carlo Tomato.

Samy Galvez [00:32:52] Yeah, yeah, something like that. And so I think there was also this moment When I was. When I was reading 2nd Nephi and I was reading about my skin and how the very purpose of my skin was to make me ugly to other people. And that hit really hard because as a victim of colorism in Guatemala, I was called a monkey often. I remember one time when my friends. And this is one of my earliest childhood memories, one of my friends came up to me and said, sammy, you should really start showering. And I said, but I shower every day. And they said, well, you know, all the other kids are saying that you bathe in poop, and that's why you're brown, so you should probably shower more often.

Samy Galvez [00:33:40] And, you know, it was a childish thing, but it has stuck with me. And it's like every single time I have to face racism, all of these little experiences that have piled up over the years rush back in together, and they all come back.

Samy Galvez [00:33:56] So I went to BYU back in 2009, one of my missions, serving in California, Elkana, San Francisco, from 2009 to 2011. Came back, and I finished my degree in neuroscience last year. And I have been involved with affirmation, and I was president of Understanding Same gender attraction at BYU from 2014 to 2015.

Samy Galvez [00:34:19] I am currently trying to decide where I'm going to go for my master's in public health, but I've been accepted to Columbia University in New York City. So I'm thinking I'm probably going to do that, because that sounds really exciting.

Samy Galvez [00:34:30] But, yeah, it's been difficult since. The other thing that I want to point out, last thing I want to say for this part, is that when coming out, I think that's when I started really having drawbacks into those childhood experiences, because the LGBT community is extremely racist. And I see some faces like, what? Yes. Yes, it is extremely racist.

John Dehlin [00:34:57] It's sexist sometimes, probably.

Samy Galvez [00:34:59] Oh, definitely. Misogyny is rampant among gay men. And it was very. At first, when I first I remember talking to someone and saying, hey, so do you want to hang out? And they were like, oh, sorry, I only go on dates with white guys. And I said, oh. But I was talking about hanging out.

Samy Galvez [00:35:23] And then I was like. He said, oh, it's just a preference. I said, okay, it's just a preference. Okay, cool. And I dismissed it. But it kept happening almost every single week. And then I realized, this is not a preference.

Samy Galvez [00:35:38] This is an illness. This place is ill with racism. If it were a preference, I think that it would be unique and isolated. However, I've discovered that the words of the Book of Mormon reach into people's minds even when they are gay and even when they come out. And that in some people's minds, my skin was still given to me to not be attracted to them.

Samy Galvez [00:36:03] And, you know, that's when it started hitting me hard. And that's when I started thinking about it more and more. What place did I occupy in this society in Utah, and what did it mean? And how did all these circles come together and intersect into my life? And so that's been kind of where I'm at right now.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] I have to say. It must have been interesting being sort of a gay Mormon missionary in San Francisco, Oakland area. Is that true?

Samy Galvez [00:36:29] Oh, yeah, it was great. I mean, we had two reactions. We had the go away, leave our city. And I was like, but I'm one

John Dehlin [00:36:38] of you in the wake of Proposition 8, right?

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:36:39] Yeah, yeah.

Samy Galvez [00:36:40] I was there 2009, so a year after. And I was like, well, but I'm one of you. And then we also had the high elders want to come over? And I was like, oh, trust me, yes, but no.

Samy Galvez [00:36:55] So those were thanks, but no thanks. Those were the two types of reactions that we most often had. But it was great. I came out to my mission president. I came out to several Companions members in the queer part of my life. My mission was great because I was able to see that there were members of the church who were lgbt, who were not homeless, who were loved, who had careers. And I think growing up in Guatemala, there's a lot of stigma attached to the word gay. If you're gay, you're homeless, you're HIV positive. Not that there's anything negative to this, but it was really hard for me to see myself.

Samy Galvez [00:37:31] I was like, oh, I'm not any of those things, so I must not be gay, clearly. And then I realized that being gay means whatever I want it to mean. And then I. Sorry. And then I actually stopped using the word gay, and I started using the word queer because I realized that gay is white. So nowadays I identify as queer because I'm not white enough to be gay.

Mica McGriggs [00:37:52] Interesting.

Colorism, Racism, and White Supremacy

John Dehlin [00:37:54] Would you mind just telling us the difference between colorism and racism?

Samy Galvez [00:37:58] Well, colorism is an expression strictly related to how dark you are. And so, for example, in the United States, we can see that Latinos as a group are oppressed. So that's an example of racism, because Latino is a construct, a racial construct of the United States that is being systematically oppressed. However, within the Latino community, we have, for example, Afro Latinos who are completely ignored, misrepresented, and who have also had experiences of being oppressed by the rest of the Latino community, even though they are Latinos. So that's an example of colorism in which. And of course, there's also an intersection of racism there as well, because back in Latin America, then there is a construct for that particular demographic. So colorism is directly related to how dark your skin is, whereas racism is related to the construct of your race.

John Dehlin [00:38:56] Thank you. Thanks, Sammy. Beautiful. Okay, let's go back. And what I would like to do is model sort of an open discussion where if Lindsey or I step in it in some way, say something offensive or rude, that we can model just sort of correction, right. Where if I do something wrong, if I mess up, whatever, you guys will feel free to just sort of correct me, because I think that is an important part of learning to feel more comfortable where we can just all sort of understand we're going to mess up sometimes, we're going to make mistakes. And so.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:39:32] And then I'll tell you to get over it. It was just a joke.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] Yeah. So I want to invite you to do that. And I'm going to start with a question that I don't even know if it's offensive, but I'm going to ask it, and you tell me. I would be curious to hear you guys talk about any experiences you had of sort of what you would call. Well, let's start by defining racism. Is that okay?

Mica McGriggs [00:39:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:54] Do you want to take a first stab at it, Misha? And then the others could add.

Mica McGriggs [00:39:57] So the best that we understand about the term racism comes from critical race theory, which defines racism as the intersection of power and privilege. It's a construct. It's a system of oppression. So therefore, I'm either oppressed by that system or I am privileged by that system. I benefit from that system. And so I have. I'm not completely eradicated from it, but I have moved away from calling people racist and saying, that's something bad. You're a bad person because you're racist. Often we have this evaluative piece, this moral judgment that's been on it. When someone says, that's the worst thing you can call me, that's because we've said that means you're really bad. What that means is that you benefit from the system of racism. You benefit from it. So when Darren Smith says all white people are racist. Yes. If we're talking about the academic terms. Yes. Because you benefit from racism.

John Dehlin [00:41:02] And what we hear is, oh, you call people the N word and you lynch people or you're part of the kkk. Right, right.

Mica McGriggs [00:41:07] And so what I would say is,

John Dehlin [00:41:09] and it's not that you're saying it's not that way.

Mica McGriggs [00:41:11] I think that there are expressions. Expressions. People engage in expressions of racism or overt racism. And to me, that is being a bigot. That's prejudice, that's discrimination. And so if someone were to call me a bigot, I would be much more like, oh, I need to check myself, than if someone were to say, you're racist. Well, you know, if you're white. Yeah, because I benefit from this system and someone else is oppressed by it. And so that's the best that we have right now in language. And we're still constrained by language, obviously, but that's the best we have.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:41:42] Sorry to interrupt. The term that has been helpful for me, understanding these issues is white supremacy. Now, at first, that one was even more loaded than racism because, you know, you think of white supremacists, you know, the neo Nazis. And however, once it was explained to me, like Lindsay, stop. Think about that word for a minute, that whiteness is, you know, supreme. And so when we look at that as a system where whiteness is the goal, like you were saying in Guatemala, white supremacy, to me, that's helpful because that to me explains a system that we're all a part of, that we all engage in, that we're all affected by the whiteness. Yeah, the whiteness is the goal. Whiteness is the best, even if it's not overt. But it, I mean, in America, it's pretty overt.

John Dehlin [00:42:26] And in the Book of Mormon, it's pretty explicit. Right. Like, it even talks about the culmination of the progress for Native Americans will be when they become white and delightsome. White and delightsome. So, I mean, that's pretty explicitly white supremacist, right?

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:42:41] Well, that and you guys, maybe you guys can speak just to the system of white supremacy. But like, you know, in Mormonism, in Christianity, white God. God is white. God is male and white. I mean, everything is white. You were talking about beauty.

John Dehlin [00:42:54] Temple clothes are white, baptismal clothes are white.

Mica McGriggs [00:43:00] Those are white too.

John Dehlin [00:43:03] Right.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:43:05] It seeps into everything, like, just to everything. So maybe you guys want to talk about white supremacy more.

Samy Galvez [00:43:13] Well, under. Under Mormonism, I think it's very prevalent. Yesterday I had the unfortunate experience of watching Saturday's Warrior.

John Dehlin [00:43:24] It wasn't. You didn't like,

Samy Galvez [00:43:29] was great. I mean, it was just great. No, I hated it.

John Dehlin [00:43:32] Had you seen it before or was it your first time?

Samy Galvez [00:43:34] It was my first time seeing it. And Alex Boyer was casted as God, which at first I thought. As God, which at first I thought, oh, this is interesting.

John Dehlin [00:43:48] Edgy.

Samy Galvez [00:43:49] Yeah. Except his character was a caricature of blackness. And so, of course, you know. But then again, I had the opportunity to visit the renewed section of the church history museum last week, and they produced a new Joseph Smith movie with this huge screen that's all around you. And it's like just trying to get you very submerged into that grove. And of course, the God and the Christ that you see are white. And I think that it's still there. It's still there where there are still many members who believe that, you know, in the next life we're all going to be white. That's how God is. And that's certainly what everyone would ever want to reach for.

John Dehlin [00:44:34] So as we. So we've kind of defined racism. If I can just try and repeat it, it's someone is racist if they benefit from sort of a systemic dynamic that privileges one race over another. Is that fair to say?

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:44:50] Can we give, like, an example of that, too? Like the benefits that we're talking about. We're not talking about just being made fun of. And like, John and I aren't made fun of firmer skin, although that is true as well.

Mica McGriggs [00:45:03] But so when we talk about privilege and oppression, what we're talking about is access to economic resources. So when I say that when one group, let's say, might be prejudiced against or discriminated against, that doesn't automatically mean that they're oppressed. So understanding when we're talking about, again, these are systems. So when we're talking about racism, we're talking about this system that allows access, that grants access to white people to economic resources, to land, to. To money, to jobs, opportunities. Opportunities and power. Right? Because whoever has the money has power. And this system was carefully created and calculated when the first white people came over here and obliterated the Native Americans living on this very land. Right. And then kidnapped Africans and dehumanize them and use them so that they could gain wealth and power. So that's.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:46:13] I just want to point out where that came from. Like, it didn't just stop with the transatlantic slave trade. I mean, if you know the history of the Ivory coast, we're still doing that. We're still mining cocoa fields for our chocolate and rubber fields. That's how Congo is in the mess that it's in from the rubber trade that we built, like America built its backs on colonizing South America and the Ivory Coast. And so it's not just, I mean, while of course, it's explicitly the transatlantic slave trade affects the race temperature in America, it goes well beyond that.

Mica McGriggs [00:46:48] Absolutely. Yeah. So that's, to me, that's the easiest way to understand it. It's like it's access. We're talking about access. We're not talking about. When I say privilege, I'm not talking about that. That means that you white. So that means you have a silver spoon in your mouth. We know that there's poor white people. However, systemically there is different access to that power and that money and opportunity.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] Yeah. Other examples of privilege, of white privilege. Do you guys want to. Just because I don't think we really understand what that means. Exactly.

Samy Galvez [00:47:18] It means that you can be here from Iceland and you can stay longer than your visa allows you to and no one will ever tell you to go where you came from. Whereas I have, you know, have paid every fee and have tried to do everything according to immigration, yet almost every other week I get told to go back to Mexico, which is not where I'm from.

John Dehlin [00:47:47] I laughed and I shouldn't.

Samy Galvez [00:47:48] It also means that if you take crack, which is a cheaper form of cocaine, which is the same, exact same compound as cocaine, but it's cheaper. So it's, you know, majority of black men do not consume cocaine. They consume crack. I mean, the ones who are in drugs. Right. And so that means that if you are a white girl who is in college and wants to experience with drugs, you're going to do cocaine. And then if you get caught, you can get away with it. Whereas if you're a young black man who has tried crack and gets caught, you have a mandatory sentence and then you cannot vote and your record is marked forever. And then you cannot get employment again.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:48:35] And we're talking sometimes lifetime sentences for drug possession for usually predominantly statistically, like African American men, even for things like pot, you know, like a white, you know, a white man can get busted on the same, in the same circumstances as a black man and their sentences are going to be disproportionately different.

John Dehlin [00:48:56] And you hear this in Cache Valley, if a Latino kid engages in drug use or selling drugs or assault or something like that, very severe consequences. If it's the white Mormon kid of a well to do family, maybe no consequences at all. And it's very severe. Tanisha, do you have a couple examples of white privilege?

Everyday Experiences of Race in America

Tinesha Zandamela [00:49:19] I think some things that everyone deals with in their everyday life. There's so many examples. For example, white privilege is going to the store and not having someone follow you. Especially if you're in a store where clothing is more expensive or whatever, products or household are more expensive.

John Dehlin [00:49:38] Is that a thing? Because I think a lot of people have no idea that that's even a thing.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:49:41] That happens to me all the time.

John Dehlin [00:49:43] So you go into a store. What happens?

Tinesha Zandamela [00:49:45] I shop at Banana Republic very frequently, for example, and I constantly have people. The store people will come behind me and walk next to me. Hey, what are you looking at? Are you gonna buy that? Can I get you something? And I think for certain people who don't have to deal with that, that doesn't sound like a big deal. The store clerk's just, like, being really nice. She's coming to help you out. However, I have seen, because my mother is white, and because I have. I have grown up in predominantly white areas, I've seen my friends enter stores, nothing. Hey, how are you doing? Let me know if you need any help rather than someone standing right behind you and making sure that you buy something.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:50:29] In fact, one time I was at City Creek, I was looking at some perfume, and the lady comes up behind me and she says, are you gonna buy that? I was like, I don't know. Just testing her out. We'll see. And she was like, okay, I just need you to know, like, just don't touch stuff that you're not gonna buy.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:50:50] And I was furious. And I have been in that store many times with that same person who works and seen that same person who works there with friends. And no one's ever said, hey, don't touch that if you're not going to buy it because people assume that you cannot afford it or you're going to steal it. So little things like that, I think when you're white, you go into the store, it's no big deal. Just walk into a store, you're shopping. But these are things that go through our mind as a person of color every single time you walk into a store. Honestly, when I walk into a store, I consciously think every single time, do not look like you're doing anything sketchy.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:51:29] If I'm next to a rack of something with small items, I never reach into my bag to grab my purse or to grab my phone because I don't want it to look like I am stealing anything. These are things that. I mean, that's a little thing. Going to the store to get something is not a big deal. But those little things become a big deal when you are being profiled and being followed. And so I think that when we think of white privilege, we have to recognize that there are little examples every day that we, as people of color

Mica McGriggs [00:51:59] have to deal with.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:52:00] This isn't, I don't do cocaine, or I've never done drugs, for example. Yeah, I know, but that's so. That seems like a big thing. Like, if you don't do drugs, it's like, oh, okay, well, you know, I've never done that. I don't know anyone who does that or whatever. But even something as simple as walking into a store and not having someone follow you or going to the airport and not having someone pat down your hair or pull you aside, little things like that on your hair.

Mica McGriggs [00:52:30] Every time I go through tsa, I

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:52:33] didn't know that was upside.

John Dehlin [00:52:35] How many of you have had your hair patted down at tsa? This man's bald. Pretty much. No one. Maybe. Maybe Jack.

Mica McGriggs [00:52:42] Every single time. And I've had them say, we're just checking to make sure there's nothing bad in there.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:52:47] Oh, yeah. I have to, like, shake it out when I have my hair curly so I can show them that there's nothing in there.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:52:53] But see, I want to point out, like, we are hearing these stories, and we're like, that's horrible. Who would ever say that to you? But if we're honest with ourselves, and I'm gonna say something terrible about myself here, but in the interest of full disclosure, I remember being at a McDonald's late at night, and there was a McDonald's employee that was taking a break outside smoking a cigarette. So, first of all, I'm Mormon, and so he's smoking cigarettes, so that's bad. But he happened to be black, and my first instinct was to lock the doors. Like, in the car, you know, he's just taking a cigarette break.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:53:25] And it didn't occur to me at the time, but it did later after. I'm trying to unpack this stuff. Like, would I have locked the doors of just a white McDonald's employee taking a smoke break? The guy was not interested in my car at all. And I think it's those little ways that it creeps up on us. And you'll see studies that are done across the board, even for people of color who will respond this way, that culturally, when we see movies, who are the criminals? Who are the actors playing the criminals? Are they white people or are they brown people?

Mica McGriggs [00:53:57] And this is the same in Disney. I know you love your Disney, Lindsay, but this is the same. You know, you have the. Jafar is the darkest guy in the show. And the scar is the darkest mane of the lions. And I mean, it goes on and on and on. This stuff, it just creeps into pop culture. And so we are conditioned.

Samy Galvez [00:54:19] It's just, it's everywhere. I mean, white supremacy is when you have feminists fighting because they only make 79 cents. When you look at women of color

Mica McGriggs [00:54:29] and men of color.

Samy Galvez [00:54:30] Men of color who make less than white women.

Mica McGriggs [00:54:33] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:54:34] Talk really briefly about driving while black. Some people may have not even.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:54:42] The only time I've been pulled over in Utah was when she was in white.

Mica McGriggs [00:54:45] That's true. I forgot that was the only time. I'm like, I get pulled over all the time. I would say that my experiences have. I mean, I know I try to abide by the law and all of that, but driving while black is something that I've known about since I was a kid. And that's something that I'm very aware of. My dad, who is a dark skinned black man, has a nice vehicle and he gets stopped quite frequently and he has to show all of his military IDs, you know, before someone's like, oh, okay, you're good. You know, he has to show that he is prove his innocence all the time.

Mica McGriggs [00:55:29] And so like that etiquette around. I mean, these are conversations around etiquette. When you're dealing with authority, particular police, that is something that black people and people of color are talking with their children about from the time they're very small.

Mica McGriggs [00:55:41] So here's what you do. If you get stopped by the police, this is how you act. Because if not, you may end up dead, you know, or, you know, at least you might go to jail.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:55:52] That would be.

Mica McGriggs [00:55:52] The hope is that you would go to jail and not be killed. If you're removed from your vehicle, expect to be removed from your vehicle, expect to be asked to get out of your vehicle. And of course, we see, you know, recently in the media how these things have started to. We have cameras now and we're capturing these experiences and so we know that these things are going on. But yeah, it's a dangerous thing to drive while black. Very dangerous.

John Dehlin [00:56:22] Now I'm asking you guys to do something really hard because I'm trying to channel all my full whiteness and I'm trying to put myself in the mindset of the more resistant listeners that I know I have because my embarrassingly my Mormon stories audience embarrasses me in how they respond to people of color that I bring on the show. So I can hear my listeners in their little privileged, secluded Sort of scenario. Say, okay, boo hoo. When you're buying something at City Creek, you have to be a little bit careful, you know, Boo hoo. You have to be a little bit careful while you're driving. Like, we've all got things, you know, we've all got things we struggle with.

John Dehlin [00:57:06] I've got things too. You've got your thing, but in America, you've still got lots of privilege, you've still got lots of opportunity. There's affirmative action and you've got a black president now. And like, you know, yeah, there's some mild inconveniences that you guys experience, but come on, it's America. It's a melting pot. And everybody can do well here if they try. Can you please try and communicate how these matters of privilege or disadvantage can really impact you emotionally or psychologically or temporally? Each of you take just a moment. Maybe Tanisha will start with you, then Sammy, then Misha. Help someone understand emotionally or psychologically or temporally why they should think about this more as just minor inconveniences.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:58:01] Well, I mean, I've heard that a lot. And I think it's really interesting because I think, for example, to drive 55 on i15, now that's super annoying because I like driving 70, kind of a minor inconvenience. And yet I hear people complain about that all the time. Like, I'm late for work because I can't drive 75 on the freeway, which we all know everyone does anyway. But I think it's interesting when people say, but that's just a minor inconvenience when there are a lot of minor inconveniences in all of our lives that people find to be a really big deal.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:58:38] So imagine, I guess, that you're constantly having to drive 55 on all these freeways or whatever. I just think it's interesting because there really is a huge emotional toll. So, yeah, going to the store and doing that doesn't seem like a big deal. But if you go to the store often, it is a big deal. And then you leave this, you get to the checkout counter and you have to make sure that you don't look like you're doing anything sketchy. Especially if you're like in a gas station. I swear, there's always weird, like, they're like, are you.

Mica McGriggs [00:59:10] Is this all.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:59:10] Are you. You know, is there anything in your bag? And then you go out to your car and I hope that nothing. There's no weird interactions or whatever. It's just constant. And to have that constantly in the back of your mind.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:59:27] It's exhausting. And especially as someone who. It's my fifth year at byu and when I went to Paris, I was in Paris for three months doing an internship. And my experience was a lot different there. And I did not have to deal with the same microaggressions and things that I have to deal with here.

Tinesha Zandamela [00:59:47] And I didn't realize how much of a toll it had taken on my life until it was. I didn't have to deal with it anymore until I could just walk into a store and go get something. I could go on a date with whoever was attracted to me. And there wasn't this weird tokenization.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:00:08] I think there's so many, they seem like minor inconveniences, but they don't just happen once. And I think that's the big thing. It's not one time that I've walked into the store and someone has followed me. It is every single time I walk into a store, especially in Utah. And so I think when you put that all together and you think this is all the time, you are constantly thinking, how do I make sure that I don't get shot by the police? How do I make sure that if I get pulled over something bad doesn't happen to me? How do I make sure that no one thinks I'm doing anything sketchy all the time? Then, yeah, that adds up. It becomes emotionally exhausting. It becomes.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:00:49] Can I just interject with a question? I really want to hear your response to this too, but maybe Misha can speak to this. This is not a made up thing either. If you look at the history of

Mica McGriggs [01:00:56] Battle Fatigue syndrome, racial Battle Fatigue syndrome, we understand this now. Psychologically, exactly what's happening, it's increasing, it increases anxiety, depression. This is real mental health issue. It's taking on the world every day because of your race and battling white supremacy, every single interaction. And now just imagine that you are at byu, where we are and where Sammy has been, where it's all white mostly, except for us and a few of our friends and some athletes. And being in a white church and in white communities and in white corporate America and in white government, racial battle fatigue syndrome. It is very, very real. And so, yeah, that's my answer. Now Sam can give his.

Samy Galvez [01:01:49] I'm going to make an assumption here that significant section of your following is either post Mormon or, you know, on the fence. And I'm going to say that every time, if they're living in Utah, every time they are annoyed by the church or something that the church does in government or in laws, every time you say, oh, why do they have to do this? Or every time they have to interact with their family and they say, why can't we just focus on being family right now? And every time the church, just like the church misses, if we can say that messes with, like, almost every single aspect of your life.

Samy Galvez [01:02:30] Now imagine if those annoyances got you killed or got you deported. Because getting stopped on the freeway for you may or may not mean a ticket, but for families here might mean death, or it might mean lose your children for you don't know how long you might have to be in a jail, in a prison here, waiting to get deported, not knowing what's ever going to happen again to you.

Samy Galvez [01:02:59] So now, of course, I know as someone who has issues with Mormonism, I know it's hard to deal with Mormonism in an everyday situation. I'm not going to dismiss that as irrelevant, but I'm just trying to compare it.

Samy Galvez [01:03:15] Now imagine how much that has infiltrated your life and your family's life. White supremacy has infiltrated even more because you can move to New York and not have to think about the church, except once every six months. But no matter where you go, white supremacy is there.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] And you can't move away from the color of your skin, right? I mean, if you're, if you're post Mormon or whatever, you move to Texas, nobody knows. You can blend right in. There's no label on your head that says post Mormon, right?

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:03:47] And this is such a perfect example that you just brought up, because how many out there, like, have complained at some point when you're struggling with an issue in the church and you try to tell someone and they tell you to get over it or to not think about it, it's not that big of a deal. Why can't you just leave the church and leave it alone and think of how painful that is? And I think that that is an example that we can really relate with. And so, like, if you're feeling defensive at all, practice the empathy there. We know how painful it is when people dismiss our pain. So, like, we just need to be open to it. If anything, we should be more attuned to it.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] Misha, do you want to answer the question? Do you want to add anything to what's been said?

Mica McGriggs [01:04:32] So the pain. I have an interesting relationship with the progressive Mormon community because I can so relate to much of the struggle. And also I think that there is something that is going to benefit you in a growth A development that's going to happen as you sit in the pain of that. You understand that what I'm getting is a practice, an exercise in empathy for understanding what people of color go through every single day. And so as much as you're reaching out and trying to find community, and I think that you should continue to do that and read the books that are comforting and engage in the communities that are validating and comforting.

Mica McGriggs [01:05:19] Don't fight it. Don't swat it away too much, because this is an opportunity for you to grow. And. And when we grow, we understand each other better. We get to move closer to whatever you want to call it, to Christ being Christ, like, to God, to actualization, to enlightenment. Right. We move closer to that when we see each other. And so the pain you feel, hold onto it a little bit longer and sit with it a little bit longer

John Dehlin [01:05:50] instead of just dismiss it like, oh, Darren offended me. So I'm going to. You know, Misha said something that was uncomfortable.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:05:56] We, as white people, like I said at the beginning of this, we don't have to listen to this. It's our privilege. We can say, oh, you know, that. That makes me feel uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [01:06:04] Oh, they're just.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:06:05] They can't walk away from this. You can't walk away from your skin color and your experience. And it is such a privilege of white privilege. I've had this in. And I want to talk about progressive Mormonism, too, in just a second. But as a progressive Mormon, I was like you. I did an interview on race. I'm like, this is good. It was an embarrassing interview, looking back, and I got a lot of criticism for it. And my response was, at least I'm trying. Like, I let you know I had the conversation. But what I was really saying was, I let you speak. You know, you had your turn. Like, get over it.

John Dehlin [01:06:44] Sit back down.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:06:45] Yeah. And, you know, of course, there was no malicious intent, but my defensiveness, like, took over everything, Right? And so there, you know, I got burned down. And it was painful for me. But at the end of the day, I could say, I can turn off the computer, or I don't even have to podcast anymore. I don't have to deal with this. And that is such a privilege that I didn't realize at the time, because I'm like, I'm hurting. I was trying. Can't you recognize my good intentions? I can walk away from the conversation.

Mica McGriggs [01:07:13] And what we're talking about is racial identity development. And so we have a model for. If you want to look more into this Su and Sue and Helms, we have a model for people of color, and we have a model for white people. And in summary, the model for white people is really the recognition and then the deconstruction of your white privilege. And so this is a. It's psychosocial development. This is an opportunity to develop. And so it's not that, well, I was bad and now I'm good. Right? Or I didn't get it. Now I did. We're all growing and we're developing. And if I'm not racist anymore.

Mica McGriggs [01:07:51] Right. Or I'm not racist anymore, we're starting from a place that is a lower level of identity development, and we're moving to a place that's more mature, and that's a process that, I mean, we don't fight Piaget. Stages like this is just another example of development.

Being Black in the LDS Church

John Dehlin [01:08:10] So before we talk about various branches of Mormonism, I'd love to hear each of you talk a bit about,

Mica McGriggs [01:08:18] you

John Dehlin [01:08:19] know, race as it relates to your experience in the LDS Church. Have you, you know, we've talked about white privilege that permeates all of, you know, America, United States and the world, I'm sure, to some degree. Let's talk about that as it's specific to Mormonism. Now, we all know that the church certainly has a troubling history with race prior to 1978. And many of us, many of us in the church think what. We kind of fixed that in 78. We're good. Now talk about the experience of people of color in Mormonism so that all of us can get a sense for the fact that actually there's much work to be done or there's still many problematic issues. Tanisha, are you okay starting with this?

Tinesha Zandamela [01:09:07] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:09:11] Speak to your experience. Speak to your experience. Your experience. How is being a person of color been problematic or difficult for you as a Mormon?

Tinesha Zandamela [01:09:19] Okay. I think it's been incredibly difficult in the sense that I just never really fit in. And I wasn't quite sure I did all the right things. Right. And as I've grown, I've started to push certain things off and sort of ignore them. I still go to church. I'm still active.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:09:39] But when I was younger, I just didn't understand why I didn't fit all the way in. And by that, I mean, I had, for example, my dad, who is black and is African, he got in trouble for not wearing a white shirt to church. Now, no one else in my ward ever wore a white shirt. There was T shirts. I mean, it was pretty. It was all over the place. But not everyone wore that. And he was the only person that was ever called out for that. And I saw that and I saw that in my own life. I got in trouble when I was 14.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:10:16] I mean, I was very straight edged Mormon. I didn't even understand, like, sex was just like, I had no idea. And I got in trouble with my bishop because I had these sequin high heels from Wet Seal. Totally innocent favorite high heels. Wore them with like a long skirt, of course. And my bishop said, you can't wear these anymore. And he told my parents, because your daughter is walking around these halls like a stripper.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:10:47] And I'm the only person. Everyone else in my young woman's group was also wearing high heels. And I'm sure that it was not the sequins that offended him or the gold. It was me. And so as I started to get older, I started to realize that why am I getting called in more than everyone else? Why am I getting in trouble for things when I am doing every single thing that I'm supposed to be doing?

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:11:11] I just want to say I was never called in unless I went on my own.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:11:15] Yeah. And that's, I think, a common experience for most white people. None of my friends ever got called in. I was the only person of color when I was in Young Women's until my sister was 12. There wasn't anyone else. And when someone else actually did move into the ward who was a person of color, she also was getting called in all the time. And so I think that's been really interesting because it was mostly just me by myself growing up and as a person of color in my ward. And I got in trouble a lot. And it was really frustrating because I didn't understand what I was doing wrong. The heels were just not enough for me to.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:12:01] Did you internalize that as a racial thing, or did you think they must discern that I'm like more wicked racial thing?

Tinesha Zandamela [01:12:08] Because, I mean, my dad has always been very good at saying this is like, I know why this is happening. He's very articulate and gets why things happen. And I. So there were times where I wanted it to be okay, maybe I'm just messing something up. I did, you know, listen to that CD last week. There's a few swear words, but when I got rid of all those things, there wasn't anything else. It was just me. And so that's something that has been incredibly difficult, is just getting called out for things that I didn't feel like I had done. And then I didn't feel like there was a place for me within that group. When I go to Mutual, I know that I'm eventually probably gonna get in trouble, and I wasn't doing anything. So then why go right?

John Dehlin [01:12:59] Does that extend your experience at byu?

Tinesha Zandamela [01:13:03] Yeah, BYU is like a whole nother thing. Mostly just because I think being at BYU was difficult because you have people who are racist constantly, and there's that religious aspect. So I feel like it was a little bit different just because there was way more white people than there were in my ward. And I wasn't necessarily getting called in all the time so much as it was my peers. Whereas when I was in Mutual, my peers necessarily weren't saying stuff to me all the time. I was just getting called in by the bishop. But then all of a sudden, I'm being called out by people who are my age, people who are in my class.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:13:43] What about dating in the church as

John Dehlin [01:13:47] a person of color?

Tinesha Zandamela [01:13:48] It's a disaster for me at byu. I have had an incredibly hard time dating. People will graduate and they'll be like, yeah, I went on all these dates. Dates. So great. I do not go on many dates because.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:14:05] So the app Tinder, for example, which I have used every single time I have downloaded that app, I have instantly regretted it because it takes people. No matter what my pictures are, even if my pictures are very, you know, I generally have wearing the same thing I am now in my pictures, someone will send me something incredibly sexual or. Or they'll say something about my race. And that is the same way it's been at byu. Even with people who are incredibly straight edge, they just assume that you, like, must not really be that religious. And you're either sleep around. Yeah. They sexualize you or they use you as a token.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:14:44] Wow. I have always wanted to make out with someone like you or whatever that, like, generally, almost always when I'm on that app, which I feel like is a good representation of dating in Utah. That's what's happened regardless of the person's status in the Mormon Church. So I think that that was also something that was frustrating because, you know, growing up, wanted to go to LDS prom or things like that, and I did at one point, but it was just very difficult because I wasn't. I didn't have that same look as a lot of my peers, and I think the same stands at byu. It's just. It's difficult.

John Dehlin [01:15:22] Misha, talk about.

Mica McGriggs [01:15:25] Yeah. So I can relate to the dating stories. I remember when I was 12 and the young woman Leader was teaching a lesson about temple marriage, you know, because we do that like at least once a month. And she was talking about how you have to date someone who's Mormon so you can get married in the temple.

Mica McGriggs [01:15:45] And I was like, well, what if you fall in love with someone who's not Mormon? Like, well, that's why you don't date people who aren't Mormon. And I. But what if, what if it just happens? You know, my 12 year old, what if it just happens? And she's like, well, it just won't happen because you won't date someone who's not Mormon. And I was like, okay. And then I, you know, I was crying and I was like, oh my gosh. Like, because I knew that it was a date in my religion or date my race. There wasn't. Because there weren't other black Mormons around me.

Mica McGriggs [01:16:11] I didn't see that. And so I was like, I am either going to have to date, you know, a Mormon and not date someone that is my race because that's all I see is white Mormons, or I date outside my religion, don't get to have a temple marriage and date someone who's my race. And so that was, I mean, you know, that was kind of my introduction to like, here's what your dating life is going to be like.

Mica McGriggs [01:16:36] And then in high school I was like, chubby, so I didn't date, but just like a different problem with discrimination. And so, yeah, I mean, but other than, you know, so dating is fascinating, but other than that, I mean, it's. I don't see leaders who look like me. I don't see images of God that look like me. People laugh when I talk about black Jesus and I'm like, well, he wasn't white because it says right there in the Bible he had hair like wool. So this boy was not white.

Mica McGriggs [01:17:10] And, and to me, I've embraced this God that has to transcend white maleness. Right. So when I see God, I see like black mother God.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:17:21] Why is that important though? Like, why would you want to see a God that looks like you?

Mica McGriggs [01:17:24] Well, if I'm created in the image of God and God doesn't look like me, then how is that true? You know what I'm saying? Like, that we're created in the image of God.

John Dehlin [01:17:32] You just code switched right there.

Mica McGriggs [01:17:33] I did, I did. That's.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:17:37] Yeah.

Mica McGriggs [01:17:37] So I'm created. Are you telling me I'm created in the image of God and yet God looks like a white guy?

John Dehlin [01:17:42] It's kind of Privileged, because we're like, what's the big deal? But we all have had the privilege of seeing God.

Mica McGriggs [01:17:47] I'd like to see myself reflected in

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:17:49] me in the leadership. Why would that be important?

Mica McGriggs [01:17:53] Well, how can I know that my leaders really understand my trials and struggles if they don't? They have no experience that ties me to them. And not only is this a problem for people of color in America, but internationally, the 15 guys that are in charge, I mean, maybe they don't. They might not even know that your country exists. You know, I mean. I mean, really, they. Oh, that's a country, right? Yeah. How can I be sure that they understand my lived experience when they're telling me how to live my life? But if they don't understand the trials and struggles that I'm going through, how can I trust that they can give me any advice that would be sound, especially if they're just guided by a white male God? So, yeah, that's been. My experience is a lot with the leadership in theology and stuff like that. And, yeah, Dayden's a hot.

Representation, Dating, and Church Leadership

John Dehlin [01:18:56] Were you disappointed this last two conferences ago when they had three openings and none was a person of color? Were you hoping for that?

Mica McGriggs [01:19:03] That was painful. And, you know, I went to Genesis that evening.

John Dehlin [01:19:08] Tell us what Genesis is.

Mica McGriggs [01:19:09] So Genesis is the official auxiliary of the church for black members. And a lot of people, they don't know they exist, but they do. And they've been around since. They've been around for over 30 years.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:19:21] And.

Mica McGriggs [01:19:22] And they. I mean, they're an official auxiliary. So they are an arm of the church, fully embraced and funded by, you know, the brethren in Salt Lake and everything like that, fully sanctioned. They have a presidency. It's three black men. It's always been three black men in their presidency. They have an area authority who's over them. And it's where, you know, black church culture meets Mormon theology. So it's a good time. There's gospel music, and a lot of black converts will go because they miss music and they miss being up, able to clap. We clap. We're in an LDS chapel. We're clapping, we're hooting, we're hollering, we're feeling spirit.

Mica McGriggs [01:19:59] We're being moved. And it's a beautiful. It's a beautiful place. If you have. If you are white and you are raising black children at LDS Church, please take them to Genesis so they can see other black people. Please, please take them to Genesis.

Mica McGriggs [01:20:13] They meet one every first Sunday of the month. They have a fireside in Salt Lake. Anyway, so I went to Genesis and that night after conference, and people were in pain. You could see it. People were in pain. The Genesis presidency was in pain. We had people talking about that they had turned off conference for the first time in 20 years. I've never not watched conference. I turned it off after that. I turned it off because I heard, when is it going to be our time?

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:20:40] We're talking like, Genesis is faithful, faithful

Mica McGriggs [01:20:43] members, very faithful, very orthodox, but not

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:20:46] afraid to shy away from controversial issues.

Samy Galvez [01:20:49] And I think it's important to mention the implications of this, because it's not just. I mean, yes, being able to see yourself represented is a big deal, but the implication is that God does not speak to us

Tinesha Zandamela [01:21:03] or that we can never become that. If you see all these people consistently being called over and over and they never look like you, then that's not something I can aspire to. And from that point of view, I can see how other people that I went to church with and continue to go to church with say, okay, well, being white and being blonde is what being Mormon is. And that makes sense when you think, as far as the leadership goes, if people are thinking in terms of that, that's who the leadership is. That's who gets called to the highest positions in the church. Not me, not anyone that looks like me. Right.

John Dehlin [01:21:37] But, Sammy, go ahead and answer that question I've asked the other two about.

Samy Galvez [01:21:41] Yeah. So first, I want to talk about the word Lamanite. I hate the word Lamanite because everyone just looks at me, especially at byu, and they're like, oh, you're Sammy. Like Samuel the Lamanite. Say, I'm about to get on a wall right now. But the word Lamanite is an automatic reaction.

John Dehlin [01:22:06] You grew up being told you were a Lamanite, right? Or not.

Samy Galvez [01:22:09] Well, that's what's interesting, because in Guatemala, you don't want to be a Lamanite.

John Dehlin [01:22:15] Okay, so just pause.

Guest [01:22:16] Just.

John Dehlin [01:22:16] When I was in Guatemala, we remember teaching the people that they were Lamanites and they should be proud and happy about that. And we also. I remember members of my awards sort of proudly owning that label for themselves. Now, that was back in the late 80s.

Samy Galvez [01:22:33] Bring me up to speed if you want to. And so there's still, you know, there's still that. Like, I don't think we have ever met 2 Latinos refer to each other as Lamanites.

Mica McGriggs [01:22:43] Okay?

Samy Galvez [01:22:44] I've never had any Latino or Latina call me a lame knight. And I've never called a Latino or a Latina Lamanite. And it always comes off a little condescending as like, oh, you're that stray group who first, definitely proves that my church is true, and second, that it's finally coming back and blossoming like the rose, meaning becoming more or, you know, joining the church and like, fulfilling all those prophecies. But, you know, Lamanite. And again, when you go back to what being a Lamanite means, that means you have darker skin. That means you are lazy, you are unattractive, and you're mostly wicked, except for a few years here and there, but mostly wicked.

Samy Galvez [01:23:31] And in the end, you killed the Nephites. And it's always this, you know, I've never thought of Lamanite as like this positive thing that, you know, and every time someone's like, oh, it's just, you are the fulfillment of all these prophecies. And I think, no, I'm not. I am just, you know, and especially given my complicated ethnic and, you know, racial background, it just feels so inappropriate when people tell me that. And I also feel like it's very inappropriate. Like, I've never called an indigenous person in Guatemala, oh, a Lamanite because, you know, clearly Lamanite was a racial construct from 600 years ago. And it is completely inappropriate and in accordance to current, you know, cultural and societal circumstances all over Latin America.

Samy Galvez [01:24:23] So I think we need to move past that. So that's the first thing. Just like how Lamanite kind of mixes in together with everything. But also, again, just being able to see yourself and being able to say, what is my place and why am I here?

Samy Galvez [01:24:43] And especially when it comes to culture, I'm really glad to. I've never been to Genesis, but I'm really glad to hear that that exists because I feel like there's always, you know, I like to think that there must be some way in which missionary work from any religion can be non colonizing. But so far I have yet to see an example of that.

John Dehlin [01:25:05] What do you mean?

Samy Galvez [01:25:06] What I mean by colonizing is a whitewashing of someone's culture. Where you look at a culture and you see, you look at it from a white perspective. And whatever passes the test of whiteness can remain. But whatever doesn't pass has to change. And so we have. You know, I remember my mom was really excited because the first sister missionary from her town, meaning from the Chutu Hil people, was going out on a mission and she wanted to wear her traditional clothing on her mission because that's who she is. That's what she's worn her entire life and then she wasn't able to. And I can't think of any doctrinal reason why that would be.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:25:51] Well, we're told in the doctrine to abandon the traditions of our fathers. And so I remember asking my mom about that. Does that mean our German culture? She's like, no, no, no, that's not what it means. It means there are some tribes that practice things that are voodoo and stuff like that. And so I think, like, that's the doctrinal. Is that doctrine, Is that scripture?

Samy Galvez [01:26:14] Yeah, it's defined in the scripture. Throughout the Book of Mormon, they talk about the wicked traditions of the Lamanites.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:26:18] Right.

Samy Galvez [01:26:19] And so again, it comes back to being a Lamanite is being wicked. And so you have all these traditions. Guatemala is a pluralistic country with over 23 different languages spoken in an area that's like a third the size of Utah.

Samy Galvez [01:26:34] So we have all these people. It's so complicated. And you just come in and you just filter out. Whatever passes the test of whiteness can stay. Whatever doesn't has to go. And so I think that. And even imposing white culture, I remember knowing some people who are like, oh, let's celebrate Halloween now. And certainly that's not just like church wise. Right. I think there's something to be said about globalization and living in a global society where, you know, the US has control over the media and exports that. But there certainly is traditions, like doing like the pioneer thing. I remember dressing up like a pioneer in Guatemala and we did whatever happened, you know, we did a trek and it was really foreign and interesting.

Samy Galvez [01:27:26] And I thought, well, why don't we talk about our pioneers who are here in our country? So, you know, that kind of those two things, like the word Lamanite and also the filtering.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:27:37] Sammy, can I ask you a question about that really quick? One thing I wanted to say is I'm like 95% sure that they used to have Lamanite wards which were

Guest 2 [01:27:47] in

John Dehlin [01:27:48] Los Angeles or Houston.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:27:50] No, no, no. It was like this all encompassing term for anyone that wasn't black or anyone that wasn't white. And I think it was up until recently because some of my Pacifica friends had experiences there. That's just an aside, but I want to ask you, when we're talking about representation, I think you're kind of unique in that you saw family members in the leadership. So can you talk about that just for a minute?

Samy Galvez [01:28:15] Yeah, that's for sure. I saw my family growing up, but there's always a Limit. And anytime the white man comes from Salt Lake, that's where anyone's voice ends. So whatever they say, oh, we have to do, and we're all freaking out, they're gonna come to our house, we're gonna have dinner, gonna clean everything. Whatever we're doing wrong, we have to listen to them. We have to correct our family culture. So, you know, again, yes, I was in that place of privilege where my dad was there the entire time, my uncles, everyone. Yet at the same time, in the presence of whiteness, everything just like gets

John Dehlin [01:28:49] flushed through so really quickly. Something that's kind of bizarre for me as someone who's currently not attending church, who used to, when I went through kind of what I struggled with, the issue of race was actually one of the major things that started me down the road of feeling like maybe the church wasn't something I could support and I'm white. But once I sort of felt little bit sensitized, I said, this church, the Book of Mormon itself, and then our past policies in and of themselves are kind of non starters, like the Book of Mormon is.

John Dehlin [01:29:29] I was feeling the Book of Mormon is false just because of the racial narrative there. That alone makes it a book that I can't believe in, let alone the historical problems with it. Would you, each of you, to the extent that you're able or comfortable, talk about how you have come to terms with the racist narrative in the Book of Mormon and the church's policy in terms of black. And I know that some of you are at byu, so we'll all just know that you'll have to say whatever you're able to say in that situation. Misha, why don't you go first?

The Book of Mormon, Lamanites, and Racial Theology

Mica McGriggs [01:30:00] Sure.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:30:01] So

Mica McGriggs [01:30:05] let's see. Well, even though we see such a whitewashed church and a whitewashed theology, luckily God has sustained my people. Not white religious leaders, but God. A God who hears and a God who sees and a God who knows. And so while in the, you know, when there was slavery in the Deep south, you know, and black people were out in the fields, what were they doing? They were singing to their God. They were singing spirituals to their God, and from a book they could not read, from a book that they were told was used to oppress them.

Mica McGriggs [01:30:53] And still they were finding God, you know, in the worst of circumstances. And I think that resiliency is the story of so many people of color. And so for me, I can find God just about anywhere, because God will find me, because I believe that I'm connected to God. And so God will find me.

Mica McGriggs [01:31:24] And I was born in a Mormon family, in a Mormon community. And so I think if I had been born somewhere else, I would have a different language for talking about God. Certainly I might have been born in a Catholic family, and I would have Catholic language for talking about God. And so I feel like a lot of people are born being able to talk and experience God, but it's just delivered in a package to wherever they start. And so for whatever reason, you hold on to the package or you don't or you find a new package. Right. But, like, so for people, I think if you're rooted in God, then you understand the packaging, and you can kind of rifle through that, if that makes sense, to use metaphorical words.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:32:13] Can I tell a story about you and me really quick? This is how I got to understand this, because I was at the same. Asking the same question, like, if the church is. You know, we're doing this podcast called the Color of Heaven, and we're just, like, digging and finding all of these things where the church is so formed around race, things that I never paid attention to before. And so I'm like, how. How have you done this so long? How have you stayed in the church? And there was a point where I was, you know, as I'm want to do, cry over some issue in the church, feeling pain, like, feeling betrayed or whatever.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:32:45] I was with Misha and our friend Jennifer Gonzalez, and they let me do it. They let me cry and, you know, patted my shoulders, and I asked that question. I'm like, how can you. Like, how can you still stay in this church when it's like this? And they were very sweet and walked me through it, but they basically said, lindsay, like, you're in pain. You've been on this high cliff and you've fallen into the valley, and that hurts. It hurts to lose that pedestal that you put the church on. But we've always been in the valley.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:33:17] And so for us, like, the religion is there. And that was such a realization for me to be like, okay, like, it's unfair of us to be like, well, isn't the priesthood ban, you know, enough for you to leave the church? But that is not how a lot of people experience this.

Guest 2 [01:33:33] Beautiful.

Guest [01:33:33] Thank you.

Mica McGriggs [01:33:33] Well, and to go off of that, I really believe that that's where God lives. First shall be last. God lives in the margins. God lives in the valley. God doesn't live up here.

Guest [01:33:43] Right?

Mica McGriggs [01:33:44] Who lives up here? The money changers live up here. The people that Jesus was flipping tables in the temple over Live up here, right? God lives down here with the most marginalized and oppressed. And so, yeah, I'm like, yeah, I'm just chilling. I'm living with God. And hopefully you'll see me model a way to come to God in such dysfunction. And I think I really believe. I call it the gift of. Of melanin. I'm very proud of melanin. I say check that melanin all the time because I think it's a gift of brownness. And a gift of being black is that we just get to have this opportunity to have a relationship with God, to have resiliency, to have all these things built in.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:34:35] Right.

Mica McGriggs [01:34:36] When the world says you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're bad. We have spirit lifts enough to. You're right where you're supposed to be. And hopefully some of your white friends will learn something and join you, join you.

Samy Galvez [01:34:47] I think that's, you know, that's really funny that people would say that, well, why don't you leave the church? And then I can reply, well, why don't you desert the United States as the empire that it is? You know, given that, you know, I think that sometimes people think that racism originates in the church. It does not. And you can leave the church.

John Dehlin [01:35:12] If you leave the church, you escape racism.

Samy Galvez [01:35:14] Yeah. And you can leave the church and still be racist. You can recognize the racist problems within the church and still be racist. You can, you know, even cry out against the church for its racist problems and still be racist because. And I think that's why it's like, oh, you know, like, yeah, the church has that problem, but what doesn't have that problem?

Mica McGriggs [01:35:38] So, like, show me where my. Where my safe haven is.

John Dehlin [01:35:43] Tanisha, how about you?

Tinesha Zandamela [01:35:44] Yeah, I mean, for me, I'm still active and I believe because it's where I feel I belong. And I don't really know. I can get into all explaining all of that. It's where I feel I belong. And regardless of the things that are in the Book of Mormon or the culture of the church or the leadership, I am a very resilient person. And I also don't like people telling me what to do. And I'm not gonna leave the church. I feel like I belong, so I'm gonna stay. That's, I guess, just the simple truth of it. I feel like my heavenly parents have included me in the conversation and they understand for me, I look at my heavenly mother as being, you know, someone that I want to aspire to, and she is a representation of me.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:36:35] And she understands what it's like to be a biracial woman living in Utah. And because I have that connection and that relationship, that's. That's why I'm here. That's why I speak.

Should People of Color Stay or Leave the Church?

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:36:47] So tell us how you feel when you hear this question and related specifically to race in the church, which I think most people conflate with the priesthood ban. And you can get into the language of the priesthood and temple ban. Maybe you can talk about how the way that we even talk about, you know, the 1970s in the church as a problem. But what is it like for you to experience that when people think that, like, you should leave the church because there was a priesthood and temple ban?

Tinesha Zandamela [01:37:15] Honestly, when progressive Mormons or ex Mormons tell me stuff like that, it's like Sammy says, you don't. It's not like you leave and you're like, less racist. And because of the spaces that I've been in and continue to be in and contribute to, there's a lot of incredibly racist people within the group that I fit into and within the progressive Mormon group. And so for me, I honestly, I just don't care because I don't think me leaving the church because of the priesthood ban would make my life.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:37:51] I would not experience any less racism because I have seen the racism in those groups as well. And so for me, I guess I have to do what I feel is right for me. And honestly, I think it's a little rich for a bunch of white ex Mormons to come to me and tell me what I should be doing about race. And I think that's always so interesting because people are like, no, we want to help you out. And that's the epitome of white saviorism. I don't need that. I don't need your help. I understand. I'm a smart person and I know what I feel and I know how I feel about the church.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:38:25] And so I don't really care what other people say about that, especially when it's like white progressive Mormons or ex Mormons, that's not their place. And of course, there are obvious problems within the church. And for me personally, I've always felt like my calling is to stay and help remedy those issues. But, yeah, when people say that to me, especially white people, I don't care

Samy Galvez [01:38:51] if I can say just a couple things about this topic. First is when talking specifically about the Book of Mormon, we have, and I'm going to say two options, whether it's true or it's not so in case. Well, let's say it's not true. So we can just look at it as this document, which was written by Joseph Smith, which was heavily influenced by the racist environment of earlier, you know, United States of America. And so naturally, there will be many racist expressions in that book. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't things in that book that may be good.

Samy Galvez [01:39:25] You know, certainly I believe that there are passages in the Book of Mormon that are great. I love King Benjamin's speech when he says, aren't we not all beggars? I mean, why aren't you denying your goods to others? I think that's a good principle. I think that it's more of a nuanced approach to it. Now, let's just entertain the thought that the Book of Mormon is true and that really.

Samy Galvez [01:39:48] And that that really happened. And, you know, I was thinking about it the other day. I was like, how can it be true when there's so much racism? And I said, what if, you know, constantly in the Book of Mormon, the Nephites are warned of this pride and this pride and this pride that's going to destroy them forever. And then I think, what if this pride was referring to racial pride?

Samy Galvez [01:40:12] What if there were three days of darkness and everything was destroyed and a few, you know, few Nephites, few Lamanites survived? And then they see a light that's coming down and they're there and bountiful, and they bow down their heads, and then they lift up their eyes and they see the Savior who is the color of the people they have despised for 400 years.

Samy Galvez [01:40:38] I think that's a very powerful imagery, and I think that that's why I like the idea of brown and black Jesus, because I think it's an image that we all need to reckon with of saying that this Savior of mine is the person I oppress the most and the person I've despised the most. And certainly that's a main tenet of Christianity.

Samy Galvez [01:41:03] And, you know, in the end, like, that pride and that racism certainly did kill the Nephites. So that's been kind of a thought that I've been entertaining.

Guest [01:41:13] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:41:15] Anything to add to this question, Misha?

Mica McGriggs [01:41:19] I think I said it earlier. Okay, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:22] Lindsay, you prepared a bunch of good questions. I think we've covered some of the topics here, but why don't you. You know, we're a little bit more short on time than I thought we would be, but take us through just some of the questions that you think are most essential Particularly around the topic of what can we do as members of the church, as former members of the church, even as citizens, what do we need to learn, Maybe guide our panelists through some questions and answers about how we can do better, what we need to know, and what we can do better to be better. Is the word allies appropriate? I don't even know.

The Meaning of Black Mormon Lives Matter

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:42:01] Well, I first want to address something that I think that we should address, which is the topic that the title of this podcast, which is Black Mormon Lives Matter. And so I want you guys to talk about that. And obviously, like, you know, Sammy had some concerns since he, you know, doesn't identify as a black man, obviously. And I was like, no, Sammy, like, we need you here because the issue of race in the church is so much broader than the African American experience. But, like, there's. Sammy's like a leading voice on this issue. Anyway, so do you guys want to talk about this specific title first?

Samy Galvez [01:42:36] I'm gonna go first and say that I'm not gonna say anything about it, so. Because it's charged for you because I am not black.

John Dehlin [01:42:44] Okay.

Mica McGriggs [01:42:45] So like many movements that we have seen over time, the feet of those movements are young people. The feet of those movements are college age students, are young adults. The feet of the Black Lives Matter movement is young adults.

Mica McGriggs [01:43:09] We are the feet of a movement. And so as we were kind of strategizing and talking about what we wanted to. What message that we wanted to bring and how we should title it, obviously Black Lives Matter is very relevant today, and it's relevant because it's moving, it's doing something.

Mica McGriggs [01:43:38] There's an energy right now in the country, and I think that that energy and that fire and that passion and that work is something that we. That I had in mind when I thought of who I wanted to speak with. I wanted people that embodied that passion and that fire and who have boots on the ground in this work. And so certainly, as we're talking about race broadly, I thought we can still use the title, even though we're having a broad conversation, because it's the energy of that movement that I wanted to attempt to capture.

Mica McGriggs [01:44:26] And because when we eradicate white supremacy and racism in America, we just take care of every other problem. It's all encapsulated there. And so what happens is when you reach to the very. If you have a shepherd with his staff, and you reach with the staff to the very, very back, you'll catch black women. That's all you catch. And then who gets gathered up is everybody else. And so black movements are actually liberating for every marginalized people. That's my thoughts on. Is that good? That's great.

John Dehlin [01:45:04] Beautiful.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:45:06] I mean, when I heard the title of the podcast, I was a little nervous just because, once again, I don't racially identify as black, so I didn't know what I would be able to offer. The second thing I thought was, is anyone going to show up to this because of the title? And I think that that's. And incredibly, I've been on. I was on a panel at Sunstone two years ago about being a person of color, youth of color in the church, and we had an incredibly low turnout compared to the other. Every other session that had happened that day.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:45:47] Can I just speak to that really quick?

Tinesha Zandamela [01:45:48] Yeah, of course.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:45:49] So I work with Sunstone, as you know, and this has been an issue that we've been talking about in trying to. I'm trying to do the work in my own life and in the platforms that I have. So we've been trying to have these conversations more and across the board at Sunstone, the big symposium or just regional conferences where we have people of color keynoting or the topic being about race issues are across the board, always the lowest attended.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:46:21] Just across the board, yeah. So I think that's the only thing that. I think what Misha said is really great, because I don't want to put too much in it if that's not how I racially identify. But I just wanted to say that I think the fact that that was my second thought was just really interesting to me, and I think that I'm right. So, I mean, I think that. So I think that that's something for me that really, I had to do a lot of thinking of the way that we, you know, people in a lot of progressive Mormon groups say, I really want to be engaged in this, or they try to be engaged with it in some sort, but they don't do the work to come to these things or to listen or to actually, it's just a lot of talk, I find. So.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:47:11] And that's what I want to ask about. As a progressive Mormon movement, I was sort of thrust into doing this work, and I'm so grateful for it. But at first it was really hard because, you know, it's very complicated. But basically, ordained women, you know, skyrocketed the Mormon feminist movement to the forefront, and there were some rumblings of racial critiques that maybe ordain women was racist. And we're like, what do you mean? If we lift up, you Know, women, we're lifting up all women. It's ordained women. It's not just ordain white women.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:47:46] And it sort of burst open this conversation about how actually, no, ordained women was not for women of color. It was for white women. And I'll have you guys talk about that. But then it opened up this broader conversation of Mormon progressives, because I think sometimes we make the mistake as white Mormon progressives that we think we've got it figured out. Like, we've unpacked these issues in the church. We're figuring it out. You know, we're not like our family or friends who don't think about these things. We've got it figured out.

Mica McGriggs [01:48:15] And.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:48:15] And yet when it comes to race, just like this is what I brought up earlier, you know, the priesthood ban, calling it the priesthood ban doesn't even acknowledge that it affected black women, that they were banned from the temple and these saving ordinances. So I want you to talk about the racism you've experienced in the progressive Mormon movement and maybe some of the problems. And I understand that people listening are going to feel defensive, and I just want you to practice that empathy that Sammy was talking about earlier, where when you're trying to tell your family members about issues of the church and they don't want to hear. So let's try to keep that in mind.

Diversity, Inclusion, and Progressive Mormon Blind Spots

Samy Galvez [01:48:53] So I want to talk about the word diversity. I think that everyone likes to say, oh, diversity is important. Diversity. I've come to learn that in the United States of America, diversity means when a white person has the mercy to let you sit at their table.

Samy Galvez [01:49:16] You need to get off your table and do not approach our table. Do not sit there and expect us to talk to you. You have to sit pretty far and start listening. And then maybe you'll be invited to sit at the table and then learn a little more. But we are sitting at the wrong table.

Samy Galvez [01:49:38] And I think that's the best analogy that I've found. We are sitting at the wrong table, and we still think people of color are an afterthought that we planned this panel on. Oh, they're all white people. Oh, dang it. We need to be diverse. We need to be progressive. Who do we know?

Samy Galvez [01:49:55] Oh, yeah, I know. This brown person, this black person. Let's call them and see if they're available. I'm sure they can contribute. If the only times you invite people of color on your podcast is to talk about race, that's a problem.

Samy Galvez [01:50:12] It's also a problem if you are only talking about race. With people of color in all these interactions, or if you expect people of color to educate you, if you show up to their table and just sit down and demand to be educated, that's very rude. And I think that we really need to stand up and it takes work to leave the comfort of our table where food is being served to us continually and walk over to that, you know, get closer to that table and start listening and yeah, what does that look like, Sammy?

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:50:43] Like, how can white people, instead of exhausting the resources that we have, like we acknowledge, I mean, this is a gift that they are here today to educate us because. Because that's really what this is. How can we, where are conversations happening? How can people start without being intrusive and rude and sort of appropriating or co opting a space that's not theirs?

Samy Galvez [01:51:04] Well, you know, I think that's one of the fails in my analogy in saying that, oh, we're not inviting you yet, because actually people of color who are Mormons and who are progressive are actually speaking, they're writing, they are singing, they are saying all these things and people just aren't listening. They're not even interested in listening at what's happening at this table. So I think it starts by showing up. So thank you for showing up. And it goes further into reading, into researching, into listening, learning history, into rethinking history again, like the example I was given of the Book of Mormon. How about if we think of the Book of Mormon like the other way around as the history of a racist people?

Tinesha Zandamela [01:51:53] I think it's been really frustrating for me because, you know, I am a progressive Mormon. When I went to byu, it didn't really fit in with the orthodox Mormons. So a lot of people told me to turn to the progressive Mormons as somewhere to find a haven with. And as the years have gone by, it's definitely got a lot better. And I know so many wonderful people who are part of these groups. However, for a long time there was no place for me to be there because you're also constantly battling racial things. And for me it was harder to deal with that with people who are progressive Mormons because you expect that in that group you're not going to have to fight those racist things that people will understand.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:52:42] Can you give us like an example that you remember?

Tinesha Zandamela [01:52:45] Yeah, I think just seeing people interact with me saying things like, I mean, it was like we were saying earlier, people saying, hey, you should leave the church. And I'm saying, no, I don't think people white People realize how demeaning it is to sort of be told what to do or assume that you don't know what's best for you as far as race goes, or just the tokenization of, you know, Sammy talked about that a little bit.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:53:14] There was definitely. And it continues to happen, but especially a few years ago where, you know, I'm getting a call three hours before this panel happens, and they need me to come and speak on it. And I am well educated in a lot of other topics, and I have never been asked to talk about those things.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:53:37] Just race or people want me to show up to their event and there's a photo op, and I'm the only person of color there. Look how diverse we are. Things like that within the progressive Mormon community have been really frustrating.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:53:54] So it's kind of hard just because sometimes I don't really know how I fit in to those groups. And I think what Sammy touched on is perfect. It's just being able to do the work, being willing to do the work and to show up and to listen and, you know, like Sammy said, there's a lot of people who I've heard and post on these groups and say things like, wow, this group is so racist. There really is a lot of racism. Oh, my gosh, why aren't we hearing from more women of color? There are women of color talking. You're just not listening, and you're not promoting their voices, and you're not being willing to repost those things or talk about them or go to those events.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:54:33] I just think it's incredibly condescending to sit down and say, you know, we don't have any women of color that are saying anything. Just don't hear any voices, because there are women of color. There are people of color who are talking about different issues.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:54:46] We're just not promoting their voices. We're not listening enough, and we're not willing to put in the. There's a lot of white people who are just not willing to put in the work, to go listen to them and to go out of their way to make sure that these people's voices get lifted up.

Tinesha Zandamela [01:55:03] So, I don't know. I think it's a tricky thing because I agree with so many things, and that's my group as far as. But there's just a lot of issues with racism.

Mica McGriggs [01:55:20] So I'm very involved with the progressive community, and I feel in kinship with my progressive Mormon brothers and sisters who are white. And it's also one of the most difficult and painful spaces I've Ever occupied. And I think that is because the appropriation for your own causes is so a lot of black Mormon folks, like, I don't mess with liberal people. I don't mess with progressives, because conservatives don't even know what to steal. They don't know what to rip off. They don't even know. They're just over there happy at church, and they good. And I'm over here doing my thing, and it's fine. But regressives, because there are submovements, there are agendas within that community. I mean, anytime we're talking about, you know, marriage equality, immediately we talk about race and we talk about, you know, marriage equality racially. And I'm like, okay, well, our race problems are not all fixed up.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:56:30] So you mean they compare the two

Mica McGriggs [01:56:32] is what you mean, right? Or say, well, let's do what they did, or when this happened with race, race. And we can learn. The LGBTQ community can learn from and this thing. And I'm like, listen, we are trying to. We're still trying to deal with our kids getting killed in the street so that, you know, I'm happy to, you know, partner. And I think that there's. Intersectionality is very, very important. But it's always. There's always an appropriation. There's always a co option, or there's.

Mica McGriggs [01:57:02] If you want an example, I'll give you an example. So. And I've recorded another podcast about this, but I Recently, there was a painting by a very famous Mormon artist that was released. It was called. I don't know what it was called. Eve.

Mica McGriggs [01:57:23] I've been calling it Black Eve. And I made. I knew. I knew what was going to happen. I knew. And he had an event, and I could not make it to the event because I would have gone and given my feedback in person, which I would have preferred to do. But I just knew that after this event, people were very excited about this painting. I knew all of my feminist friends, my white feminist friends, were going to run out and they were going to get this painting. And I knew how painful it was for me and several other, many, many other people.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:57:57] We were like, finally, Eve is black. It's amazing. It's such a great painting.

Mica McGriggs [01:58:03] So I knew there was gonna be excitement around it, and I knew that I wanted to share with my friends the pain that brought it brought up for me and the pain that I saw other black women experiencing as they looked at that painting. And so, anyway, I made a comment in a Facebook group, and that rolled into an article in the Salt Lake Tribune. And the artist responded to my critique.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:58:35] Can you say what your critique was?

Mica McGriggs [01:58:36] I said lots of things about it, but my critique mainly kind of to sum it up, was basically that it. So it was Eve, and she was bare chested and she was black, and her head's turned to the side and her face is washed out, but her breasts are very prominent. And nudity. The portrayal of nudity of white women is very different than the portrayal of nudity for black women. When we're talking about why I don't have a problem with nudity, a lot of people said, you're such a prude. I'm not a prude. I don't have a problem with nudity. I think that's fine. I love beautiful European white art. I can appreciate that.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:59:17] I'm telling your bishop.

Mica McGriggs [01:59:19] Tell my bishop. But black female nudity is so historically tied to slavery and to the rape and the brutality and the torture of black female bodies that that is what I saw. I saw a white man who was selling a black body to other white men.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:59:44] Talk about the action block.

Mica McGriggs [01:59:46] Anybody?

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:59:47] Tammy from Sisters in Zion posted a meme next to the painting that really was, like, startling of women who had actually been sold on the slave block in the exact same position. And it was startling.

Mica McGriggs [02:00:00] So I made that critique, and the artist followed up with an explanation. And in his explanation, what he said was that he was feeling so much aggression and anger toward the priesthood and temple ban and toward patriarchy that he wanted to. I don't know what he wanted. He wanted to express that through this black Eve, and that should have been empowering. And I said, oh, okay, well, that was what you wanted to do, but what you did is you took a black female body and you weaponized her against other black women. That's what you did. So your intention was like, I want to stay down with the problems in our shared institutions.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:00:45] Bring black people to the table. Like we talked about. We want to bring black people.

Mica McGriggs [02:00:48] We do our table, right? And I was. I mean, I was silenced. That was probably the worst criticism and critiques that I've ever, ever received of anything I've ever said. And I've said a lot of stuff, but it was that. It was like, can't you just be happy that we painted you at all? No, I'm not happy. If you want to piss on the patriarchy, do it with your white penis. Paint that. I am sorry, but paint that like that is what you can do.

Mica McGriggs [02:01:16] Don't use my body to do that. That's not your place. And so, I mean, that's just an example, one example of many of trying to co opt and appropriate and then we get hurt. And I keep showing up and I keep coming because there's so much that we have in common. And I love the progressive community in so many ways because I care about dismantling oppressive systems like patriarchy and homophobia and all of those things. I care about those things.

Mica McGriggs [02:01:49] But when I'm hurt by the community, it makes it hard to want to continue to contribute. Sorry, that was a long answer for a short question.

Closing Reflections and Audience Questions

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:01:58] I just have one last question. I mean, I have lots of questions. We could talk about all kinds of stuff, but you spent the evening educating white Mormon progressives. So now I think I'd like to see you guys end on Just what message would you like to give? You know, Misha McGriggs out there listening to you or Sammy Galvez, someone from Guatemala? What, what message would you guys say give to someone like you?

Mica McGriggs [02:02:28] God sees you. God knows you. God made you. And, and God is whatever God looks like or whatever, whatever God, the form that God takes in your life, like that is real. And hold onto that. And it does not matter where you end up in your journey. If it's in the church, if it's out of the church, if it's wherever it is. But know that you're that even when you feel like you're not seen or heard by the people around you that God knows and sees. And here's your prayers and your cries and you are beautifully made by a person. Perfect creator.

John Dehlin [02:03:07] What if you're atheist?

Mica McGriggs [02:03:13] If you're atheist? Well, I believe God made you too, but I think God still sees you. Here's you. But if you're atheist, you still matter and you still are important. And I have lots of atheist friends and honestly, some of my atheist friends have brought me to the most spiritual moments of my life because I've.

Mica McGriggs [02:03:36] They've found a way to. They found a way to have morals and connect with people who knew it was possible. But I've been seen and heard by some of my atheist friends. And so I see and I hear you and I don't mean to be, you know, offensive, but I see and I hear you and I want to know you.

Mica McGriggs [02:03:59] And I'll say black atheist child, Black atheist teenager. Read between the World and Me by Ta Nehisi Coates, okay, because he. Everybody, everybody, that's homework. Read that. But he is a black atheist and he talks about feeling that separation from the black community. Because we are a faith community and because he does not share that faith. And he's never seen God's hand in anything because he grew up in the real, real, and he's never seen God and never knew God.

Mica McGriggs [02:04:32] And there's power in that as well. And so your experience and your. Don't be gaslighted. Gaslit. I don't know. Don't allow yourself to be that, because your experiences are real and they're valid regardless of whether you have God or.

Tinesha Zandamela [02:04:53] If I could speak to myself three years ago and I was listening to this podcast, I would tell myself and whoever is listening, there are communities there for you and there are people who will listen to you and are willing to fight for you. And I know sometimes, especially in progressive morning communities, it doesn't feel like there are people who are willing to listen, but there are. And there are so many people that are willing to fight for you and fight with you and amplify your voice.

Tinesha Zandamela [02:05:22] And you matter and your experiences matter. And no matter what anyone else tells you when you comment on a post and people just tear you down, your experience matters. And the things that you have to say absolutely matter and they impact. There's so many people of color, especially women of color, that I saw posting before I was or saying and speaking out. That gave me the courage to speak out, and I'm really grateful for that.

Tinesha Zandamela [02:05:49] So speak out. There are people who want to hear your voice and who need to hear your voice, and you do matter everything. Your experiences are important for other progressive Mormons and for other people in general.

Samy Galvez [02:06:08] This is a rather difficult question for me because I think I. I still struggle to see myself and love myself at times. And a lot of it is again, that weight of all those times that I've been told how despicable I am because I'm not. Because of how dark I am. So if I could talk to Sammy last week or three years ago or five years ago, I would say that your skin is a gift and that you can use that as also your best gift. Use that to discover how beautiful you are inside and outside, and that you do not need anyone to love you except for yourself. And that when the time comes, that really it will feel that nobody is capable of loving you because of how dark you are. That that's when you can discover your greatest strengths by standing up to everyone and showing how much you're worried.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:07:30] Sammy always makes me cry, man.

John Dehlin [02:07:31] Sammy's awesome. Thank you so much, all of you. Before we end, we are a little bit past Time. But this issue is so important. I'm okay with that. And many of you are still here, so you are, too. We want to invite a few of you to come up to the microphone right over here, speak into it. And if you have any questions for our panelists, we'd love to invite you to maybe ask a few while we're waiting. Feel free to queue up. What are some. Jack, you got something? All right, we'll start with you. First off. Thank you very much. Very informative.

Samy Galvez [02:08:09] This is a question particularly for Misha on the Color of Heaven podcast.

John Dehlin [02:08:14] Can you kind of give a morsel? I'm loving the podcast so far, just

Samy Galvez [02:08:20] on, you know, whether it's Q Walker

John Dehlin [02:08:23] Lewis or Green Flake, kind of. How can you just kind of explain what's going on there?

Samy Galvez [02:08:31] Like, unearthing direly unknown Mormon history.

Tinesha Zandamela [02:08:36] It's awesome.

Mica McGriggs [02:08:39] So, yeah, so basically, this is Lindsay's brainchild, and I'm so glad to be included and be on board for this project. Basically, we're looking at the history of race in the church, and it's kind of unfolding organically, and we're kind of just kind of following. You know, I don't know if this is what historians do. They're not historians. She has. You can speak to that. But you're following Leeds, and you're following where the history takes you, where the documents take you. And so we're all kind of letting it unfold. And so we've started, you know, in the early part of the church, we

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:09:15] opened with a lynching.

Mica McGriggs [02:09:16] We did open with a lynching. It was very. It's heavy. It's a heavy podcast, so strap in. It's especially heavy for white folks. I'm like, lynching, like, that's terrible. And that happened. But what happened was just tell the story briefly. So there was a black man here in Salt Lake who was talking to white women. Not. Okay. And this is when Brigham was the prophet, and he was essentially. I mean, he was decapitated. Blood atoned. Right. Decapitated. Not fully, but across his neck. And then he was left up on the steps of the state capitol with a note pinned to his chest that

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:10:02] said to his skin.

Mica McGriggs [02:10:04] To his skin. Right. Not to his shirt. This is a warning to all n words that you better not mess with white women. And so that's how. That's how the. Which is just a gruesome. But here we are. And so we talk about that. That dark, insidious history, and then we talk about. We talk about Q Walker Lewis Right. Who was, you know, friends with the prophet and who was a missionary and who had the priesthood and who.

Tinesha Zandamela [02:10:32] Who taught.

Mica McGriggs [02:10:33] And the congregations that he taught said they had never met a man who, as illiterate as he was, was also so inspiring and was so. Just so he was beyond his years. You could tell he was filled with the spirit. And so we're talking about really getting into everything, and we've started talking about will be, you know, hitting, of course, what was going on with American Indians and indigenous people here and moving it out to Pacifica people and Asians. And there was a significant group of Chinese people here in the early. Here in Utah, in the early part of the church history here who were working on the railroad.

Mica McGriggs [02:11:21] And so we want to talk about them and we want to talk about, yeah, Pacifica and all types of indigenous people. So we're really just trying to take a look at the history and what it says, and we don't know where it's going to go. I mean, Lindsay thought your polygamy was going to be just a little walk in the park, and it turned out to be a lot bigger. So we expect the same thing for Color of Heaven. Anything you want to say about that, Lindsay?

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:11:48] Thanks for the plug, Jack.

Guest 2 [02:11:52] So I'm feeling an enormous amount of rage right now. I am the mother of a Cambodian daughter. Before we adopted our daughter, though, several years before, we were looking at adopting through LDS Social Services, a biracial child. We decided not to do that because of the enormous amount of family racism that we came upon.

Guest 2 [02:12:16] We hear lying for the Lord. I say that there's a lot of white people that do not tell the truth about the racism that there is. I listen to family members talk and say that the reason that men, the black men, got the priesthood is because there weren't enough righteous white people having babies, and so they needed more black men. I sat at tables where they said the only good Indian was a dead Indian when we adopted our daughter. The Ensign wanted an article of a family that had already had biological children that adopted a child.

Guest 2 [02:12:56] And when they saw that our child was not our same race, they told us that they do not use families of mixed races in their church magazines. I have had family members that have always wanted to hold my white babies, that have not wanted to hold my Cambodian baby.

Guest 2 [02:13:19] My emotions and my feelings about this are so strong and so powerful, and I am very sorry for everything that every one of you have gone through. And I would also very much like some advice on how to raise my daughter. That looks and says, why is my skin not the same color as yours? That meets with Cambodian people who with their culture believes that because she came to a white family that she has a lot of merits from past lives and treat her almost like she's royalty because she's with a white family.

Guest 2 [02:13:54] I really, I want her to have pride in who she is and pride in the beautiful dark Asian skin that she has that is so very brown, Sammy, and it's beautiful. And I would love any insight that you have and I'm sorry I invited myself to your table, but please teach me because as my 15 year old son said when he was a little boy after we adopted and he was at school and his teacher asked what group, what ethnic group he was, he's blonde and blue eyed and he said he was half Cambodian and the teacher argued with him and he said, I have a Cambodian sister, I'm half Cambodian. So we are not just a white family.

Mica McGriggs [02:14:49] I can feel your fear and, and your pain and your passion for what's going to be the best, trying to do the best by your child. I will first, because I think it's really important to let you know who is telling you what so I'll own my bias that I always very hesitant around interracial adoption because so often children are stripped of their culture and their whitewash and they go to colorblind families who want a cute brown baby and they have their cute brown baby.

Mica McGriggs [02:15:38] I see this all the time in Utah county. And what I want to say is you have your, you have your beautiful child and you have the passion that it takes to want to do the right thing. So this is a perfect starting point and you love that she's Cambodian and so I imagine that you are not going to strip her of that culture and that identity as much as you can. So that's what I would say is that she's not white, she's Cambodian. And so making sure that she knows that and I would find her a Cambodian tutor and again get her familiar with the language and if we could find a Cambodian community out here, mentorship.

Mica McGriggs [02:16:23] She needs to see as much as she needs love. Love is not enough. Love is not enough. For those of you who have adopted children of color, love is not enough. Is not enough. But use that love and turn toward that child and say I love you enough to let you be a part of your community and so create those opportunities where you can. And I don't know much about if there's a Cambodian community here, but I would find It. And honestly, if you have to move, and that's within the realm of something that you could do. If there's no Cambodians here, there probably are.

Mica McGriggs [02:17:05] And they're probably very offended that I've just said that. But if you can't find them or there's not an established community, move to where there is. Because that child needs to see people that look like them doing great things and succeeding. So that's what I would say is expose your child to their culture and don't be afraid of their culture. So that's my list.

Samy Galvez [02:17:31] I'm not a parent, so I have no idea how. I have no idea how to raise a child. But I, you know, I think that's the most important part. Just, like, connect them to their community. And I don't. I really don't know. Wrong table. Go to the Cambodian table.

Tinesha Zandamela [02:17:53] I think one thing that I'm really grateful that my mother did, who is white when we were growing up, is. I mean, granted, I had a black father, but was just making sure that in all sorts of things. Yeah, exposure. I completely agree with that. But within the home, having books, we had a lot of books with.

Tinesha Zandamela [02:18:21] I mean, there's not a ton of books with. With biracial girls, but there were books with all different kinds of. With all different races and ethnicities, and there were books with girls that look like me. I actually didn't watch the actual Cinderella, the, like, animated version until I was much older because we only had the one with brandy in it. If you have not seen, you should see, because it is the best one. Yeah, so. So things like that were really important for me.

Tinesha Zandamela [02:18:52] Granted, there wasn't a lot sometimes that my parents could find. But we did have. All our ornaments on the tree are all like, I have a brown angel and my dad has a black Santa. So there's all just little things like that were incredibly important to me because I felt like I could find representation at least when I went home, at least on the walls. There was me there, too.

John Dehlin [02:19:23] Mark?

Guest [02:19:24] Yeah. Just a comment on. My kids are half Japanese. My grandkids are all mixed race. We had one very fortunate thing that was that we had the Japanese ward. And that was a great place for them to grow up because they were always around other kids that had similar backgrounds and they saw adults, you know, that were like them who were successful and did all kinds of things. And I thought that exposure. And then we just constantly talked about it at home, you know, I mean, it was not like race was hidden at all. It was Just a constant dialogue.

Guest [02:20:00] I was curious, though, being involved in feminism like I am. I know my experience as a whole white male is so dramatically different from white females. And on the panel, we have, you know, people. We have women who are African American. Do you think that there's. In what way would a male African American's experience be different than yours as a female? I mean, is.

Tinesha Zandamela [02:20:33] Is.

Guest [02:20:34] It just seems so dramatic for me as a male versus female, do you see a lot of difference in the experience between black males and black females?

Mica McGriggs [02:20:48] I think there's actually one really stark

Tinesha Zandamela [02:20:50] example that I saw on Twitter,

Mica McGriggs [02:20:56] and

Tinesha Zandamela [02:20:56] I'm speaking as an outsider, because I was watching this conversation take place between there was some black men who were talking about Bill Cosby, and Feminista Jones was saying, you know, Bill Cosby is a rapist. And there were some black men pushing back on her, saying, like, well, if he had been white, this situation would have been different. And I just thought that was really interesting. She brought up points like, you're not fighting for us and things like that. I don't know. I just thought that contrast of that they were identifying with Bill Cosby in that he's like, a black male, and of course, there are racial issues there, but she's saying, no, you need to be willing to fight for us a step further.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:21:42] So you mean they identified, like, with the. With the blackness first over the gender thing? Is that what you mean?

Mica McGriggs [02:21:48] Okay. I think history, historical context is so important when we're talking about these differences, because there is a trauma in. Because we know the socialization of masculinity and femininity. These are constructs, but there's a socialization. And so when something is socialized, it becomes real. And so I think there is a trauma that we, as a black community are still recovering from, from. In that black men were unable during slavery adequately to protect black women.

Mica McGriggs [02:22:36] And that. And if, you know, any man I know that has a family, is very protective of his family, even if he's the most, like, egalitarian, he's fiercely protective of his. His children and of his partner. And so I think that there. There is a trauma that we are recovering from. And I think that that trauma manifests itself in different ways, because that's. I mean, that's what we're dealing with in a lot of ways is that, you know, they feel this. Like, I don't. You know, I don't feel this way. Like, this is the system. This is how it was set up. But a lot of them have internalized, like, I was.

Mica McGriggs [02:23:14] We failed like we were. We fail to protect our women. And so that trauma, I think, has carried through and it manifests in different ways. And sometimes it manifests itself in reifying patriarchy and misogyny, and sometimes it. And understanding, like we have a history of not being able to be families. Black people in America have not been able to be families. We are being able to be breeders, but not families. There weren't families on plantations.

Mica McGriggs [02:23:47] So we're still learning how to do that through, like, you know, post traumatic slavery syndrome. And so the difference is, I think, is it depends on the person and how that trauma manifests. And sometimes it means, like taking on fiercely this womanist, you know, womanist theology and womanist theory into the fight and saying like, no, like this is how we dismantle this, by being a womanist for a black man to be a womanist, which is just the black version of feminism, if you're not familiar with womanism.

Mica McGriggs [02:24:25] Or it can be the reification of patriarchy. And so I think that's. There's differences in how that manifests, if that makes sense. I don't. Don't know if it does, but thank you.

Guest [02:24:40] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:24:40] Bart,

Tinesha Zandamela [02:24:47] I just have a question. I've got three biracial children of my own, and I just want to know your advice. I know Tanisha mentioned some things that were happening to her and young women's. What would you say to these girls who are in your exact same situation who are going through these same things right now? And you know, my daughter doesn't want to go, and I'm fine with that. I'm totally, completely fine with that because of some of these things that are happening to her. And she's doing this self actualization right at the moment. And what would be your advice to these young women going through these things right now in their lives? That's such a big question.

Mica McGriggs [02:25:33] She wrote a book. You can pick that book up. Definitely start there, pick up the book.

Tinesha Zandamela [02:25:39] I think just. I mean, I think the fact that you're willing to, like, let your kids not go is awesome. I think that that's a huge thing. But if I were speaking to girls in that situation, which I was, I think it would just be like, you're beautiful and having that reaffirmation that you're beautiful, what you say matters. And a lot of what I got to do in high school, which I'm grateful for, is the energy that I just couldn't expend going to mutual because I felt like there's A lot of racial tension. I sort of played put in other places and got that validation in other ways.

Tinesha Zandamela [02:26:22] I guess. I did a lot of community organization stuff. And for me, I found this leadership, and I found, wow, I'm good at something. So I think sometimes church and church activities don't always provide that, and sometimes they don't even come close. And it's okay to find that in other ways, I guess, would just be my only thing.

John Dehlin [02:26:47] All right, last question.

Samy Galvez [02:26:54] I want to ask about truth claims. We talked earlier about how it would be virtually impossible to leave this church

Guest [02:27:01] and go to another organization that didn't have sort of inherent racism in it, but the church makes certain claims about its origin and

Samy Galvez [02:27:12] connections to God and

Guest [02:27:15] things of that nature. And for me, the claims that the church makes about race and skin color and things were the most.

Samy Galvez [02:27:23] That was the way that was most.

Guest [02:27:25] I could most easily determine for myself

Samy Galvez [02:27:28] that the truth claims were invalid. And so how do you.

Guest [02:27:33] How do you navigate that landscape yourselves?

Samy Galvez [02:27:41] Well, I think if you listened to the claims that people make about the United States of America, you'll find them just as impossible. It just simply. I mean, it is everywhere. It really is. And I am not. And, you know, yes, the church claims to be the only one, but so does the United States. I mean, they literally went into my country, killed my president, and set up a dictator and fueled genocide.

Samy Galvez [02:28:15] That's just. I mean, there is so much more. And I think that's part of. And I know this intersects racism and xenophobia and just so many different intersections together to understand what. What really happened in Guatemala, let alone every other single country that has been invaded.

Samy Galvez [02:28:34] So that's just one example. But, I mean, I think it's. Yeah, I think each and every single one of them is really difficult to navigate because, I mean, five years ago, if someone would have told me, oh, yeah, I joined the US Army, I would have said, you're disgusting.

Samy Galvez [02:28:53] And now I've come to respect people for their volunteering of their time, while at the same time abhorring the army as an institution. So that's been really difficult for me to navigate because I have friends whose parents are veterans. And when I first found out, I was like, how can you live at your home?

Samy Galvez [02:29:14] It seemed incomprehensible to me. So I think. I think it's. I think I've gone from, like, I've stayed away from moral absolutism in which I can claim, oh, this one thing is evil or this one thing is good, because I realized that there are so many nuances that I need to pay attention to if I am to survive by being a queer Latino immigrant here in the United States, because they're just everywhere.

Samy Galvez [02:29:43] So I think I need to cling onto those nuances and in every single structure that I face so that I can operate, because I can't. You know, there are days when I just want to burn a US Flag.

Samy Galvez [02:29:58] I really do. And I think it deserves no respect. But that doesn't mean that I don't have great respect for many of the great things that this country has done all over the world and some of the great things that are happening in it. So I think it's just clinging to those nuances.

Mica McGriggs [02:30:18] I think we move from. For me, it's moving from here, capital T to lowercase T, truth. And that just opens up, like, so much like. And I mean, there's very little that I believe out of the mouth of white men. So I'm like, what's next? Right. Yeah, keep it moving. Next ride along. Yep. Nope. Black female. God did not say that to me. Keep it right. Moving right along to your next little joke that you're going to try to throw out there. So, I mean, and really, it's moving from that. Here's this capital T, truth to like, what can I.

Mica McGriggs [02:30:55] What's redeemable here, what feels good here, what feels like truth, what's connecting me to other people and keep that stuff and the rest. But we don't have to throw out. Have to throw out the baby. You can keep your baby without, you know, you can throw the bathwater out and keep the baby. So,

Tinesha Zandamela [02:31:13] yeah, I just feel like there. There are a lot of good things for me, and I. I recognize that, yeah, there's some. There's some big issues, and there are some things that the church continues to do to cover up the history. However, in my life, I feel like I have. I deserve to have peace. And so if I find that peace within the LDS Church, I'm going to take it.

John Dehlin [02:31:39] So

Tinesha Zandamela [02:31:44] can I throw out something really quick?

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:31:46] So I know Tanisha talked about her

Tinesha Zandamela [02:31:48] book or we mentioned the book, but are there.

Mica McGriggs [02:31:50] Can each of you just really quickly mention, like, one blog post or podcast

Tinesha Zandamela [02:31:55] or thing that you've written or said that you'd like? Folks listening to, read or listen to.

Mica McGriggs [02:32:07] Color of Heaven podcast. I blog at Huffington Post. So my stuff is there, and I blog. I contribute to a few other outlets as well. But I have a reading list that I make available to. To lots of different people when I go and Speak. And I'm more than happy to make that available to you, John. And we can get that posted because it's a good one and I think it's the critical readings on understanding race.

Samy Galvez [02:32:38] I don't have anything, but stay tuned because I have talked to Lindsey about.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:32:43] This is his Sunstone presentation he just gave on Queer Jesus. Oh, my goodness, you guys. And we're going to post the audio, but tell them.

Samy Galvez [02:32:53] Yeah, so I'm still deciding what I'm going to do with it, but I thought about writing a book called Queer Jesus and I think it has a lot of potential, so we'll see. But they say that you shouldn't tell people that you're writing a book because telling people that you're writing a book releases the same levels of dopamine as actually writing the book. So I should probably stop telling people

Mica McGriggs [02:33:17] I am doing neuropsychist.

Tinesha Zandamela [02:33:21] And yeah, Kate mentioned my book. So go read that.

John Dehlin [02:33:25] What's the name of your book?

Tinesha Zandamela [02:33:26] It's called Just Pick one. Stories of a Biracial Girl. It's on Amazon, Kindle. Just Google my name or that title

Mica McGriggs [02:33:33] and I'll pull right up.

John Dehlin [02:33:37] Beautiful. Well, So I would like to ask all of you to please join me in thanking our three panelists, Misha, Tanisha and Sammy, along with Lindsey Hanson park, for both being willing to come, willing to share with us, for organizing this and for helping us learn. Can we please give them a round of applause?

Closing Thanks and Upcoming Interviews

John Dehlin [02:34:14] Thank you. Please. I want to thank everyone who's come tonight. It really means a lot. So thank you for coming. We really enjoy being able to meet people face to face. We'll have more Mormor stories live events in the future. Mama Dragons are next. So that's our next event. We'll give you guys a date on that soon, soon.

John Dehlin [02:34:36] Please join us@mormonstories.org if you have comments or questions about this episode, about what was said tonight. We will include Misha's reading list, a link to Tanisha's book, and we'll wish Sami good luck in writing his as well, hopefully without releasing any endorphins, but please contribute there. And also we want to thank club cafe at 50 west and Jake Jensen for sponsoring us tonight. They're always great, gracious hosts. And we want to thank all the Mormon stories donors and supporters and contributors because you guys are all who make this possible. So thank you for your contributions.

John Dehlin [02:35:17] Please check us out again and we will have more. Lindsey, tell us about something we're about to share in our next episode that you helped us record.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:35:25] Yeah, I'm really excited about this. She's a non Mormon. Her name is Erika Chilome and she is indigenous and Mexican. And we did an interview with her to talk about Mormonism and colonization. And she sort of specializes in this. She's done a bunch of TED talks and is like an incredible poet. And at the end of the interview, she shares this amazing poem, so you gotta listen to it all the way through. But we actually got to take her to Temple Square for the first time and we watched the Testaments.

Mica McGriggs [02:35:55] Good idea. Yeah.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:35:57] So anyway, she says a lot. She is a religious activist, so I think there's a lot that Mormons can learn looking outside our faith tradition. So it's a mind blowing interview. You shouldn't miss it.

John Dehlin [02:36:09] And go to Sunstone in July.

Lindsay Hansen Park [02:36:11] Go to Sunstone in July and support panels with people of color.

John Dehlin [02:36:16] All right, everyone, thanks for joining us tonight and please join us again soon for another Mormon Stories episode. You guys take care. Drive safely. Thank you very much.

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