Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] What is it like to convert to the Mormon Church as a teenage young woman from India? Hello, everyone, and welcome to Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's July 23, 2025. We've done over 2,000 episodes of Mormon Stories podcast, and we, as far as I remember, have never covered the story of a convert from the country of India. And today we are going to be doing just that. We have in studio Sirisha Shumway. Hey, Sirisha.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:33] Hi, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] Thanks so much for joining us.

Sirisha Shumway [00:00:35] Thanks for inviting.

John Dehlin [00:00:37] Yeah. Can you believe we've done almost well over 2,000 episodes?

Margi Dehlin [00:00:41] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [00:00:42] And we've never covered a convert from India.

Sirisha Shumway [00:00:45] There's always a first.

John Dehlin [00:00:46] Yeah, there's always a first.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:47] It's about time. It's about time.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] And of course, we have Margi with us today as well. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:52] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] Hello. Everyone always loves it when you're here.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:55] Oh, that is. I'm glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] Yeah. Today's episode is truly epic. Obviously, the Mormon Church doesn't have a lot of converts in the country of India or China, and I want to understand why that is. But also, you know, this is going to be an episode about defying your parents and your family of origin, what type of sacrifice it is to join a church, an American church like the Mormon Church, in a country like India, where they take things like that very seriously. So there's going to be some familial and parental alienation involved, and we're going to be talking heavily about informed consent and exploring whether people who convert to the Mormon Church, especially in foreign countries, receive all the information that they need to make an informed decision. But this is also a triumphant story of courage and of resilience and of growth. And that's all I've got to say about that. Sirisha, anything you want to add?

Sirisha Shumway [00:01:58] You covered it all.

John Dehlin [00:01:59] Yeah. Okay. Well, I guess before we begin, do you have an intention that you wanted to share about why you wanted to tell your Mormon story?

Sirisha Shumway [00:02:12] My intention is basically, I'm not here to change anybody. That's what I want to do. I don't want this to be like someone, oh, she's trying to. I'm not. This is for my kids. For my kids and for them to really know. I mean, they're too young now. They wouldn't understand what I went through. But when they grow up, probably, you know, you never know the time. Maybe I might be around or not. But I want them to look here and be proud of the mother they

John Dehlin [00:02:45] have love it is there also a desire? Let's just say there's people, maybe in foreign countries, maybe teenage girls or boys or young men or young women who are considering joining the Mormon Church, but maybe aren't getting all the information from the missionaries, maybe in Africa, maybe. Would a side motive be that you want to help people gain a full set of information so that they can make informed decisions?

Sirisha Shumway [00:03:15] Absolutely. I wish somebody did that to me. Yeah, I wish somebody did that. But it never happened. And if I could be of help for anybody, I would be honored. And I'm always open, not just for the podcast or something. I'm open to talk. There was a time that I didn't want to talk about it. I'm trying to process, but I'm in a position to talk about it now.

John Dehlin [00:03:40] I love it. All right, well, before we actually jump into your Mormon story, I have a question about the Mormon Church missionary program and the state of the Mormon Church in India. Because of all the current and former Mormon missionaries I've ever met, very few to none have ever served in India. Now, Margi, you're nodding your head, is that right?

Mormonism in India and Indian Religious Culture

Margi Dehlin [00:04:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] And that's weird because as I understand it, India is either the first or second most populous country in the world. We're talking over a billion people. Is that right?

Sirisha Shumway [00:04:15] Yeah. Ye.

John Dehlin [00:04:17] That the Mormon Church would have the most missionaries in India, especially because, as I understand it, India doesn't forbid missionary work like China does.

Sirisha Shumway [00:04:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:29] And so my first question is, why? Why aren't there, you know, 20 or 40,000 Mormon missionaries just in the country of India? And you may not know, but just tell us what you know about India, its religion, its culture, and why the Mormon Church may or may not be super strong there, if you have any idea.

Sirisha Shumway [00:04:53] I'm. Honestly, I'm not someone to speak on that because I was not quite sure, but I think that missionary work started in India back in the 80s or even 80s. 1980s. Yeah. Back in the 80s, they didn't have much success. They didn't have many missionaries. And I think there was one couple. I'm really not quite sure. It's been a long time. The Indian couple. They met the missionaries here in the States and then they invited them to come to India. They didn't have many people. I don't know the reason, but for now, I think the church in India is very strong. It is growing than before. When I joined Back in 1995, we were going in small home groups, but now there are big chapels, and I think they're even Talking about temples in India. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:50] Okay, well, let me ask the question from a slightly different angle. If you think about your average Indian family, if you think about Indian culture, what is it about Indian culture that would make Indians maybe less open to an American religion or a Christian religion or, or the Mormon religion, let's just say, than maybe other countries or cultures. Can you think of anything about Indian culture?

Sirisha Shumway [00:06:18] It's basically a Hindu country. It is not a Christian country. Like unlike other countries. You're talking about Africa or other countries. India is a dominantly predominantly Hindu country. And Islam and it's amalgamation of different religions like Hinduism. We have Muslim, we have a lot of Muslim population Christians, we have Jains and a lot of religions.

Sirisha Shumway [00:06:49] One thing is a lot of our orthodox Hindus to start with, they're very less Christians. And most of the missionaries, I feel like they approach the Christians. It's easier, I think, for the Christians to, you know, join, to listen than Hindus or other religions. You know, I don't know the exact reason, but yeah, but as a people, as a country, you know, we are open. We respect all religions.

Sirisha Shumway [00:07:25] But conversion wise, there are some. It's not really as easy as it sounds that it's not like, oh, why can't they come and have more missionaries? It's still, we have religion is. Conversion into other religion is not. How do I say it?

Sirisha Shumway [00:07:50] It's not easy. It's not just a family thing. It's also the government or other things. I can talk to you more about this later. What the first missionaries, how their thing happened.

John Dehlin [00:08:04] But yeah, okay, so let's just say the average Mormon missionaries go to an average Indian family, knock on the door and say, hey, we're Mormon missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and we want to teach you a lesson about Jesus. What would the average Indian family say to that?

Sirisha Shumway [00:08:23] They say, yes, most average, they say not because they are dying to know about Christ, even if they're Hindus. We are very hospitable. I don't know if that is the right word. Culture. Like, you know, when someone comes to your home, you don't just kick them out. And especially we have, most of our missionaries are from Utah, our white people. So we are curious Indians. You know, when we see white people, young guys, and you know, they look different, first of all, you know, we look different than our skin color, hair and everything. And then we have a Caucasian white. And it's a known thing, you know, if you go there in India, people will go, ooh, there's a White man walking, you know, and then these two missionaries with their white shirt, tie, name tag, and they're coming and knocking. Yeah, they would invite you. They would want to listen. Okay, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] So then let's say for the average Indian family, the missionaries teach two, three discussions over a few days and then challenge that Indian family to get baptized. What would the average response be?

Sirisha Shumway [00:09:35] I would average. That's when it gets tricky because, you know, they are hospitable. They would love to invite you. They'll give you food. It's very common in our culture, even though the host doesn't have food themselves. But they would give something. They will treat you well. They will do. But they're also very dedicated to their religion, either Hinduism or even some other church or whatever. So it is kind of hard. When I was on my mission, it was kind of hard to get those commitments. You know, talking to people was easy. Going into people's houses was easy. You make a good bond with them. And then when it comes to baptism, that's like, oh, no, we.

John Dehlin [00:10:24] You know, they'd say, what?

Sirisha Shumway [00:10:25] We?

John Dehlin [00:10:25] What?

Sirisha Shumway [00:10:25] I mean, they would be like, you know, they wouldn't make commitments. Indians also have a hard time saying no. They will say something like, I'll do my best to get baptized or I'll do my level best. These are the words we say. It's kind of hard for us to say no. I had experiences where they lock the door and go out when they know that we are coming. Oh, my gosh, they're coming again. So very few people. They'll come up front and say, hey, we don't want to be baptized. You know, they can come to church, too. There are a lot of Hindus, you know, during Christmas time, you see them going to church. Even some of we respect religion because we all live together and we do. But then when it comes to getting baptized and stuff, some people would not make that change. That big change.

John Dehlin [00:11:16] Okay. And just for those who are curious, I asked the Internet. According to the Internet, there are four LDS church stakes in the entire country of India. Four steaks.

Sirisha Shumway [00:11:30] Okay, that's like.

John Dehlin [00:11:31] There's. There's four stakes in, like a square mile here in, you know, in holiday, Right?

Margi Dehlin [00:11:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:37] So four stakes in three districts. So there's seven steak equivalents in an entire country of a billion plus people. So, I mean, that is pretty small.

Sirisha Shumway [00:11:48] Yeah, but. But for India, that is big. I would say, okay, it is growing. I would say, if it is foresake and then it is growing. Because when I was there, there was I think one stake. No, I don't.

John Dehlin [00:12:01] No, it says the first LDS stake was established in Hyderabad in March of 2012. So this is the first steak LDS Church stake in India. That's where I was 13 years ago.

Sirisha Shumway [00:12:15] Oh, that's where, that's where you're from?

John Dehlin [00:12:17] Hyderabad?

Sirisha Shumway [00:12:18] I mean I'm different places. I'll tell you. It's a long story, but I spent a lot of time and I have some deer people there. Yeah, Hyderabad is home.

John Dehlin [00:12:26] Okay, last question and then we'll go into your story. Is the Mormon church even known for the average person in India?

Sirisha Shumway [00:12:35] No. No, absolutely not.

John Dehlin [00:12:37] People have no idea.

Sirisha Shumway [00:12:38] It's not like if you talk about, I mean Christianity is a known thing. You know, if you go I'm saying Christian but you know, if you say you are a Mormon, it's not like you'd. Oh, you're a Mormon. No, it's not. Average Indian doesn't know about Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:12:48] So if you say I'm a Mormon, an India person would say, what? What's a Mormon?

Sirisha Shumway [00:12:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:53] Okay. All right, well let's talk about your upbringing even before meeting the missionaries. Tell us just about your parents, your birth, your family and whatever happened in your life that led you to the church.

Sirisha's Childhood and Family Background

Sirisha Shumway [00:13:07] Yeah, I was born in southern India and I'm the only child to my parents. Only daughter. Only child, yeah. And both of my parents were working. My daughter dad is very responsible. What do you say? Like he's a gusted officer. I don't know if you have that in the United States. You know, he's like very higher government official.

Sirisha Shumway [00:13:33] And my mom was also a nurse for the government like hospital. So they both are, you know, they were living in like we call it agency area. Not even, even many Indians wouldn't know. It's like interior. It's like not just villages, but it's very rough area.

Sirisha Shumway [00:13:58] They didn't have good schools so they asked my grandma to raise me in a place called Vijayawada. So that's where I spent most of my childhood growing up years and my home environment is not something that conduce you to, you know, I wouldn't call it as a healthy or happy environment for any kid to grow.

Sirisha Shumway [00:14:26] It was very abusive family. My dad had alcohol issues and issues with money and my parents obviously with those things would fight and it was hard. I was protected by my grandma a lot. I would say she took good care of me and she was always there for me. But I used to spend in Vijayawada with my grandma. But when I used to see my parents during the summers in those villages, it was very rough.

Sirisha Shumway [00:14:59] It was traumatic experiences. There were times that my dad would drink alcohol and abuse my mom. And we had to leave the house in the middle of the night to escape that abuse. So it wasn't a very happy childhood or something.

Sirisha Shumway [00:15:19] So after that, I moved to different places with my uncles. My mom has siblings, and I almost spent time with all of them. But there was a time, I think I felt that my dad loved me. And he told my mom, my God, okay?

Sirisha Shumway [00:15:43] He said, I don't want my daughter to be away from me. And he wanted me to be with him. So they bring. They brought me to this place called Rajumandri. And they both were not working in that place. Again, I was there and it was not a happy childhood. It was filled with lot of struggles, emotional and physical abuse.

Sirisha Shumway [00:16:16] Whatever my parents were going through, they couldn't show it on each other. They showed it on me. And it was very rough, very rough childhood. I always. My neighbors who used to see me, they would be saying things like, you know, make sure you study hard, make sure you get a very good job so that you go out of this house and live a happy life.

Sirisha Shumway [00:16:48] So from a very young age, I knew that I wanted to be something big. And my dad also had big dreams for me because I come from a family of very highly educated people. My aunts, uncles, my cousins, the engineers, doctors in the family.

Sirisha Shumway [00:17:06] Very highly educated family. And my dad always would say, I want you to become something like him, higher government official. He would say, when you walk, I want people to stand up and wish you. Like when he used to walk, people would say, they stand up, say, namaste, sir, like that. So my dad had that respect him because he holds that position in the government.

Sirisha Shumway [00:17:37] And my dad always used to say that to me, I want you to be like that. You know, for a person who was born in those days, for him to say to a girl, generally, they expect to a boy, like, especially in my culture. But my dad was. He would say that to me, I want you to be that powerful and strong woman.

John Dehlin [00:18:02] In your teen years, did you move back in with your parents? Or were you always raised by extended family, even in your teenage years?

Sirisha Shumway [00:18:10] I think I was about 12 or 13 when I moved back to my parents. The place is called Rajmandri. It's in southern India. Very beautiful, beautiful place.

John Dehlin [00:18:26] Real quickly, in terms of religion, were you raised with a religion at all? And if so, what was that like?

Sirisha Shumway [00:18:34] Religion was not a big Part of growing up because my family is a mixture of different religions.

John Dehlin [00:18:42] Which ones?

Sirisha Shumway [00:18:43] Hinduism and Christianity. So some of my family members followed very strong Hinduism. Honestly, when I was living with my grandma growing up in Vijayawada, my uncle, who is my mom's brother, my mom's brother and grandma and me, we used to live in one portion of a house. And then my mom's sister and her husband used to live in the other portion. And my mom's sister and her husband are very, very orthodox Hindus. So growing up, my uncle would make sure I wake up early in the morning, shower, get ready and do puja with him.

John Dehlin [00:19:24] What is that?

Sirisha Shumway [00:19:25] Puja is a worship. It's a Hindu ritual. Like he has pictures of almost all the Hindu guards in the house, in every room he filled, even on the top of the fridge. Everywhere he would chant the Hindu slokas and mantras. And he taught me those things. And I used to do that with him. And he used to have a bell. This is a ritual I have to do every single morning with him before I go to school. So mostly I would say I have Hindu upbringing because of my uncle. He would take me to temples. We used to go to a place called Tirupati, which is a very famous place for Hindus to go.

Sirisha Shumway [00:20:05] And in Vijayawada we used to have this temple called Kanakadurga temple. And he used to take me there. So I have more of a Hindu upbringing. And Christianity is kind of limited to Christmas. You know, on Christmas I used to go, we used to go to the church. And for me at the most, mainly I was focused on the cake. That's all I'm there for. They'll give the cake. So from my mom's side of the family, my grandpa used to be a pastor in Salvation army so we did have some connections there. But my family doesn't really practice orthodox Christianity.

John Dehlin [00:20:44] And when you say used to go to the church, meaning the Christian church, which one?

Sirisha Shumway [00:20:49] The Salvation Army.

John Dehlin [00:20:51] That's a church.

Sirisha Shumway [00:20:52] The Salvation army was a church. It's a church. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:55] So I think like there's Catholic, there's Methodist, there's Baptist.

Sirisha Shumway [00:20:58] The Salvation army is. They even have in the States they,

John Dehlin [00:21:02] I mean, I've heard of the Salvation army but I've always thought of it as like a non profit that helps, you know, countries but not as a religion. But you know, yeah, that's what I

Sirisha Shumway [00:21:11] observed here in the States. You know, like I see them during Christmas, you know, doing those things. In India it is a church. We have a church building and My grandpa used to be pastor and he was also working for the government. So he was a convert to Christianity and changed his name and he followed Salvation army. And I think they have this thing called soup, soap. And salvation means like, when a person is hungry, you give them food, you give them shelter. Salvation comes at the end preaching, but you'd care for the others.

John Dehlin [00:21:50] Soup, soap and salvation.

Sirisha Shumway [00:21:52] That's what I heard. My grandpa loved the church so much. His oldest son, he named him William Booth. William Booth is a founder of Salvation Army.

John Dehlin [00:22:02] Very cool.

Sirisha Shumway [00:22:03] Yeah, very cool.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:04] It's kind of. It sounds like it's kind of the philosophy of meeting people's basic needs first.

Sirisha Shumway [00:22:11] Exactly. Yeah. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:15] So can I ask you, you know, as your dad is kind of, you know, in many ways being progressive and saying, you know, hey, you can be like me, you should aim high and maybe work for the government or be respected one day. Are you. Did that fill you with? Is that something you wanted for yourself as he was talking to you?

Sirisha Shumway [00:22:39] Absolutely. Absolutely. It's so funny. Indians love movies, you know, we are crazy about. And there are times, at those times, there's these movies where the women police officer beating up bad guys. I'm like, in that zone, you know, I'm going to be this one. I'm going to be someone respecter or like doctor. I always imagined myself when I thought of my future, you know, all the time at that time, it was always like in a powerful position, like how my dad expected. And my dad was gem of a person with his Ray Ban glasses. And he's like, you know, and he. He truly took care of his people and they all loved him and he wanted that.

Sirisha Shumway [00:23:22] And I got a lot of respect in that area because of my dad. The good things, amazing things he have done to the tribes there. Honestly, I. For me, if people that are very close to my heart, I would say the tribals in Andhra Pradesh and Aditygala Vairambaram, the place I grew up, I relate with them more than any other group of people on this earth. I feel that they are mine.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:48] Oh, I love that. That feels like home.

Sirisha Shumway [00:23:51] It is to you?

Margi Dehlin [00:23:52] Absolutely.

Sirisha Shumway [00:23:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:56] So we're talking about the 1990s, when you're, let's just say 10, you know, 11, 12. Is that right? The late 1990s. I'm curious what the perception was of America in, you know, when you were a young girl or teenage girl. Was it good, was it bad, was it mixed? Or did you even think about America?

Margi Dehlin [00:24:17] Yeah. Were you aware of America?

Sirisha Shumway [00:24:18] You know, America in those days was a glory. It's way above than being good or better. Everybody dreamed about that. And if you have come to the US or even meet somebody from here. So it was. It's not like now it is in those days. That's a big deal. Really big deal. Like you people used to say proudly, oh, my brother's friends, friends used to live. Is living in the States. And you'll be like, oh, really? You know, people would be, yeah, it is a big thing. I think even now a little bit. I think it is wearing off right now with the things that is going. But in those days, it is like even if you can just come once to this country. Oh my goodness, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] Do you have a sense for why America was so?

Sirisha Shumway [00:25:09] I think the way the media portrayed. I think in those days, like the movies, you know, it's funny,

Margi Dehlin [00:25:19] in the

Sirisha Shumway [00:25:19] Indian movies, the Telugu, which is my mother tongue, or even the Bollywood movies, anytime they show America, it's like huge skyscrapers, super fast cars, you know, people living their best, nice houses and stuff. When I came back, when I really came, I was like, oh, this is not what I saw in the movie. Much different, but it is what it is. And also the people who come from us, you know, like Indians who lived there and came back. Oh, like, oh, you know, you know, they have this swag. They have certain, you know, thing. And we will, oh, he came from the States, you know, we would be like, yeah. So there was a. It is a really big deal back in those days, like someone, you know, even if you know someone who living there, it's like, big deal.

John Dehlin [00:26:07] Okay. Okay, cool. All right, so let's talk about your teenage years and how you ended up meeting Mormon missionaries.

First Encounters with Mormon Missionaries

Sirisha Shumway [00:26:16] Yeah. So as I told you, so my dad told my mom, you know, I want my daughter. I don't want her to be anywhere else. You know, let's bring her here to Rajamanri. So it is a central place to the place where both of them working. So my dad would come like once a week to see me and my mom would go in the morning, come in the evening. She used to work in a different city too. So they took a house for rent and I was staying there. So one day the missionaries came actually to my neighbor's home.

Sirisha Shumway [00:26:45] And like it is 1995. So in India we have this thing. If there is any white people, we just want to go see them. We don't know what they're doing. We just want to see them. So the neighbor girls, they said, you know, There are some Americans in my house. I'm like, really? So I went and called all the neighborhood kids, and they said, there's some Americans there. Just go see them. So there was like.

Sirisha Shumway [00:27:08] The room was like, I don't know, a really small room. You know, Indian houses are not huge. Their living room is really small. There were, like 20 kids sitting. I gathered everybody in the neighborhood. We just wanted to see them. It was like. And we were like, oh, my God, blue eyes. You know, we don't have blue eyes in India. So that was like, oh, my God. You know? So we were just like, you know, admiring them, you know, seeing somebody that close, from a different culture and interested in what they are saying, why they are here. So they're actually. They came to our neighbor's home and they were teaching our neighbors.

Sirisha Shumway [00:27:44] And you know how the missionaries are. I mean, they show that love to you. They show that care to you. None of them. They get baptized. They were like, I don't know how many families, Kids are there. And the neighbor, they didn't take. As I said earlier, they will invite you. They will talk to you. But when it comes to baptism, they might not like that idea. So same thing happened with these families that are around there. So none of them, not one family, although there were so many that missionaries went to, not one of them wanted to be baptized.

Sirisha Shumway [00:28:23] So for me, it was different. The reason is, for me, somebody even sitting there to talk to me and to listen and care for me was a big deal. As someone who was in a. I would say, a vulnerable state, a young girl who was 13, 14 at that time and who grew up in an abusive family, who nobody ever sat with her, gave her any importance or talked to her, showed her love, when suddenly, when she saw these two missionaries carrying. And I was immediately, you know, drawn. I'm like, I'm so interested what they have to say. You know, they are showing so much interest in me.

Sirisha Shumway [00:29:13] And they would give me scripture, things to read. They gave me Book of Mormon. I was the only one who would read, and I wouldn't understand anything. First of all, English is not my first language. You know, my mother.

John Dehlin [00:29:27] Your first language? Tell us again.

Sirisha Shumway [00:29:29] Telugu. Telugu.

John Dehlin [00:29:31] Telugu.

Sirisha Shumway [00:29:31] T E L U, G U. Telugu. Yeah, that's my. I speak Hindi and other languages too, but India. But English was not, at that time, was not my strength. So especially Book of Mormon. English was very different. So I wasn't even understanding what it is, you know, saying. So I would read three, four times, try to make sense out of it. It Was still difficult, but I was obedient. When the missionaries told to read, I would read. I'm the only one who would read too. Rest of them, they would be like, oh, this is an American book. It is printed in America. That's all they care about. For I was like, you know, they cared about me. They showed me that love and concern, and it's my minimum respect to read that do what they asked me to do. So I was doing everything they asked me to do.

John Dehlin [00:30:17] So I'm just so fascinated with why the church isn't bigger in India. So I googled and I asked, how many Mormon missions are in the Philippines? Right. Just trying to think of a big country, you know, relatively close to India. Right?

Sirisha Shumway [00:30:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:32] Do you want to guess how many missions are.

Sirisha Shumway [00:30:33] There are a lot. Philippines, I think they have a lot of 26 missions. Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] In the Philippines. Do you know how many there are in India?

Sirisha Shumway [00:30:42] Two.

John Dehlin [00:30:43] There's two.

Sirisha Shumway [00:30:43] Two.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] Yeah. And India has way more people, so. So I asked. I asked what it is about the Philippines that makes it way more compatible to Mormon missionary work. And here's what it says, that the dominant religion in the Philippines is Roman Catholicism, that Christian doctrines and the concept of Jesus align well with the Filipino people, and that converting to another Christian faith is socially acceptable. So the flip side, in India, Hinduism and Islam are the dominant religions. So people aren't primed for Christianity.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:21] Kind of what you were saying.

Sirisha Shumway [00:31:22] Yeah, exactly, that's what I was saying. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:23] Yeah. And then also the idea of a single savior and Western style worship is culturally foreign. Yes.

Sirisha Shumway [00:31:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] So the idea of one true church or like a savior, it's very hard

Sirisha Shumway [00:31:36] concept, Especially people who grew up in Hinduism, because in Hinduism there are so many Hindus and so many gods. There are so many gods and nobody is fighting. My God is better than your God or my God is the only true God, not yours or my temple. I'm not saying temple. It's a Hindu temple. So people go whichever is close to their home, whichever is convenient to them. It is not like, oh, why are you going to that temple? You should go. So there is no division in Hinduism as a religion. It is united. And for them to see there is a Jesus as a savior, one person. It's not. Yeah, that's what I was telling before. Because converting from Christianity to Mormonism is easier than converting from Hinduism or even Islam is very hard.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] Yeah. The last point it makes is that conversion from Hinduism or Islam is often seen as betrayal and is socially frowned upon in India.

Sirisha Shumway [00:32:45] Yeah. Yes. I Would agree. Okay, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:48] And I think that's relevant to your story, which is why I brought it up. Okay, so I'm hearing so far that you were open to the Mormon missionaries, number one, because they were white Americans, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:33:01] Curiosity, probably.

Sirisha Shumway [00:33:03] I would have. Even. Even if they're Indians also, I would have. But the fact that they showed the care, for me, the initial interest is, yeah, they are white. That's why the first went, just to see. Because I have never seen white people that close. But I think the later, it's more about the care they showed towards me.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] Okay, I'm going to ask you about that, but I was going to also ask, is it possible part of your interest was that you came from an unhappy home in childhood?

Sirisha Shumway [00:33:33] Absolutely. There are so many kids. That day, they didn't even come to my house. The missionaries didn't even come to my house. There are so many kids, there are so many families there. But they didn't come from a broken family like me because they already are seeing that love, that care, that concern already in their home. So whatever the missionaries showed, they just didn't care much. For me, that was a novelty. That is something that never happened in my family. My grandma loved me. I'm not saying, denying that. And she is probably one person in my entire family that really protected me, really loved me. But our culture is so different. Like, my grandma would die for me, but she never said, I love you or give me a hug or say, you are special.

John Dehlin [00:34:19] Oh, really?

Sirisha Shumway [00:34:21] In our culture, it is not common. We show through actions. A father and mother can do anything for their kids. But saying I love you, I think it is changing. The trend is changing these days. But back then, it's not what people do. They show their love by actions. They take care of you, they cook food for you, they protect you, they pay for your school. Everything but outlawed. But when, you know, when I went to church for the first time, I saw a couple missionaries. Oh, they hugged me and then they say, oh, you are so special. I was like, oh, my goodness. You know, that never happened. And for me, in my immature, naive, young brain, I. I related something differently completely. I thought these people love me more than my family.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:12] Right.

Sirisha Shumway [00:35:12] It was like.

John Dehlin [00:35:14] It was just because they said the words.

Sirisha Shumway [00:35:17] They said the words. They gave me hugs. They were like, oh, you know, you are so special, you. And I think that is all genuine. I really, I. Yeah, it is. I feel, you know, but I was like, oh, my goodness, you know, these people love me. I was so drawn, so attached because I Didn't get that. You know, Now I think back and see how silly it is for me to think that way, that they loved me more than my family. But it was what I believed at that time, unfortunately.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] Okay, that's powerful. I can already see you're feeling a lot of emotions when you say that.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:58] What are you feeling?

Sirisha Shumway [00:35:59] I mean, like, I wish somebody can just slap me on the head and say, what are you thinking? You know?

John Dehlin [00:36:06] Why?

Sirisha Shumway [00:36:06] Like. Like, how can I even think that way? That they allowed me. They have an agenda. They have an agenda. Their agenda is to convert and make people stay. Their agenda is not truly love me for who I am, for what I truly am. My family love me for what I am, especially my grandma. I don't know if my parents loved me as much, but for my grandma. I was a big disappointment to my grandma when you. When I joined the church. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:41] Okay.

Sirisha Shumway [00:36:41] Big disappointment. She's tried to stop me so much, and somehow I thought these people loved me more than my grandma. How wrong I was.

John Dehlin [00:37:00] I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:03] Well, I feel so much, though, for you as a girl and what you've described so far, because I think there, you know, we talk about basic needs and we talk about, like, shelter or food or basic kind of health care, but I think this love and care being felt by a child, you know, what I hear is like, my grandmother loved me and my parents loved me. But I think oftentimes, and I think that's so true for many children, looking back, they can see. See Nat. Like, later. But sometimes as a child, you don't feel it, though. Like, you don't feel the care, you don't feel the presence even of them looking at you and really seeing you or, you know, feeling valued by them, known by them.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:57] And so it's a basic need, though. And I think as a child, when you don't have that, and then it does leave you vulnerable to no fault of your own. To no fault of your own. You're just literally unconsciously, you're not even aware of it. You're trying to get your needs met.

Sirisha Shumway [00:38:16] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:16] And this. This lure, this offering, you know, made by the missionaries, you know, it. It hit you at this foundational level of, like, I need that. And you did. That's the thing. Like, you did. It's just what they were holding, you know, now you can see. But I have all the love and compassion for the girl you were and your needs and your experience of love at that point and how desperate you were to Feel it.

Sirisha Shumway [00:38:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm torn between on the one hand, a missionary church can provide what a potential convert isn't receiving and in that sense they're meeting an unmet need.

Sirisha Shumway [00:39:09] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:39:10] But the flip side or the dark side of that is it can also be framed as preying on the vulnerable. And how can any of us? I think most missionaries are just trying to do good. So how do we thread that needle of like taking advantage of the vulnerable on the one hand or helping a kid who feels like she needs love and giving her love, you know what I mean? It's hard to make sense of that.

Sirisha Shumway [00:39:38] Yeah. And honestly, I don't blame anybody here because the missionaries, especially the two elders that baptized me, they were young at that time, now that I think of it, you know, at that time I was only 13, 14 and you know, they were like older, but now they're just like 18 year old kids and they are only doing what they're taught to do since ever since they, you know, eight months old, you know, from a childhood, from their babies onwards, they're only doing what they're taught to do. That's it. They are not understanding the implications or they don't understand how it could impact. Honestly, I don't even think even the couple missionaries at the time were even understanding the impact of this breaking this family dynamic because it is very, very common.

Sirisha Shumway [00:40:28] I personally know a lot of people in India during that time. The missionaries baptized. When I went to church in Raju Mandari, there were just like three families. That's it. It was in a home. It is somebody's home. They rented that house and the church used to be there. The missionaries used to live on the downstairs and the church was like upstairs, couple of rooms. Very less members are just three families. Most of them are youth.

Sirisha Shumway [00:40:53] Their parents are not there. Their parents are just thinking, oh, they're just going. Because as I said, in India we respect all religions. You know, a Hindu person would come to church on Christmas, you know, Christian can go to temple. It's not like very strict. So they were sending and then the missionaries are teaching and sometimes it breaks those families ties and it has a big impact on family. Very, very big impact.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:23] And we can just maybe have a moment of acknowledging kind of a little white saviorism going into, or colonialism or colonialism going into places where, you know, there's not a full understanding, I think of culture and kind of what's at stake and what their, their actions are actually doing to people and their families. And yeah, holding that lens for real?

Sirisha Shumway [00:41:53] Yeah. I don't even know. I don't even think today any of these missionaries who are going to India today, these young kids have any idea of what they're doing to the people there. You know, maybe some families, it works. I'm not denying that there are successful people who came, they join and they're living and stuff, but I personally know some people who had, who break their families and had this distance. It is not a good thing.

What Drew Sirisha Toward the Church

John Dehlin [00:42:27] So let's talk about how much of it was the teachings that really converted you versus the church attendance experience versus the missionaries. Talk about the elements of your missionary experience that were most convincing to convert you. When most Indians are not primed to convert to a church like the Mormon Church.

Sirisha Shumway [00:42:54] Okay. So I would say again, it's a combination of all those things, not just one. Even the teachings, when you say teachings, when they come and they say that God loves you so much he died even for you. And that is not a concept in Hinduism that, I mean, of course God loves, but it is not taught like in a. In a strong sense the way Mormonism teaches. Hinduism is more like a ritual. People are not sitting and preaching. You go to the Hindu temple, the priest there, the Pujari, you know, he's not giving a sermons. I mean, they do give sermons sometimes, but it is not like you're not going there.

Sirisha Shumway [00:43:35] You're going and, you know, giving flowers to the priest and he, he's doing this ritual of puja and you're coming back within 10, 15 minutes. So the concept that, for me, that as I said, you know, I was so love deprived at home. Not just love deprived, but living in a constant state of fight and flight, stressful mode. Because it's an extremely, extremely abusive family.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:01] Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [00:44:02] Volatile, very abusive. Verbal and physical abuse on a daily basis. Extreme level. It was really, really bad. I mean, I wouldn't even blame my mom because she has gone through a lot of, I think her own mental health in those days. Mental health was not something we are even aware of, you know, or the things she's going with my dad, it was, you know, too much so for me that God loves me and he even died for me. I was like, what? And then the way they portrayed Joseph Smith, you know, you know, he saw God and he did this. There were movies in those days, you know, they show glorify these things. Glorify and they will show in the video cassettes they used to have.

John Dehlin [00:44:49] What do you remember of those Joseph Smith movies that stick in your mind?

Sirisha Shumway [00:44:54] They were like all kinds of things. Like, you know, how he fought for the truth, how he was always honest and, you know, he never drank alcohol. You know, when they talk about word of wisdom, they always start with story about how during the surgery he asked his mom to hold rather than drink it. I was like, oh my God. Really? This person, like, you know, I. I never met Joseph, of course not, because, you know, but I had such devotion and love for him. He's a prophet of God. He even saw God. He did so much sacrifice, how he has to hide the golden plates, how he. Especially his story about in the cottage jail, like, you know, he would rather die than deny the truth. I was like, if he can die for this, I would live for this. I can die for it too.

John Dehlin [00:45:57] You know, I'm just having this thought now. If you're taught about this amazing, perfect man named Joseph Smith who didn't drink alcohol even when he was having his leg cut open as an anesthetic, and you have a dad who's abusing alcohol and abusing you, that would be very compelling if true.

Sirisha Shumway [00:46:17] You know, Exactly. I'm trying to. There were some gaps in my own life at the time as a kid, and I'm thinking I'm just, you know, filling those gaps. I'm feeling, you know, oh my goodness, these people don't even drink alcohol. I have developed searches, an aversion towards alcohol from what I have seen in my own family, in my thing even. It's. It's been, you know. Yeah, yeah, like I don't ever touch it. I'm never going to touch. It's not because of some God is going to punish me, but because of what it has done in my own life, I will probably never touch it.

Sirisha Shumway [00:46:56] I don't know. So, yeah, so it is filling those teachings again. Coming back to the question. It is those combination of those teachings. How the. And also when you went. When I go. When I went to the church for the first time or during this time, I felt so much loved by people and people would come, shake hand, tell their name and hey, you know, like the youth, you know, very good friends. And I was like, oh my goodness, you know, what did I do to deserve this? You know, there are 1.2 billion people in this country and I was a chosen one to be part of this.

Sirisha Shumway [00:47:30] I feel. Felt like. I can't tell you how blessed on top of the world I felt to be part of this. The portrayal it gave, you know, the thing they taught about Joseph Smith. And I thought at least Once in my life I should go see his house, you know, in New York. And, you know, I was like dreaming, dreaming of that. You know, I wanted to dedicate my life. I could do anything for this church. And I did everything above, beyond, and much more.

John Dehlin [00:48:08] Okay, so what led to your conversion and your baptism? Oh, what was that like? And with your family and everything?

Sirisha Shumway [00:48:15] Okay, before that, I need to go back a little bit. There was one point of time I told this story to a lot of. Even in my testimony meetings, a lot. My parents actually never liked me meeting missionaries. Never. Like, initially it was like, you know, I was just. They were like, oh, she's just going just to see them. But I started to get serious. I was reading, spending a lot of time reading Book of Mormon and all those things. My mom was like, as I said, my family is so obsessed with education. My mom thinks every waking up minute, except you are either studying or you sleep or you're study, go to school, that's it.

Sirisha Shumway [00:48:51] There is no thing such time for anything else. So when I, when she saw me spending time on reading Book of Mormon, she didn't like it at all. She's like, you know, you need to stop it. You need to focus on your education and stuff. And finally one day she really said, you know, you can't meet them anymore. You are done. You can't meet them at all. And I said, okay. And I remember when the missionaries came to a neighbor's home and they were knocking on my door, my mom literally locked me inside and said, you're not even opening the door. Let them knock and let them go.

Sirisha Shumway [00:49:22] That's what I was telling you. With Indians, they won't say no right straight to the face. They'll be like, trying to do all these things anyway. So I felt like my heart was going out of my chest. It was like, oh, my goodness, I can't do this. They have those teachings, they have those things. I felt like I'm missing on all of those things. And one day I was going to school, the missionaries, they saw me at the school, on the way to the school and they said, if you're really interested, you can come to the church and we'll teach you there. So I cannot meet with missionaries in my home anymore or my neighbor's home anymore because my neighbors, they said they're not going to get convert.

Sirisha Shumway [00:50:01] And my mom, my parents are not allowing the missionaries. So I used to go to the church after school and I used to get the discussions. Take the discussions at that time, okay?

Baptism at Fourteen Against Family's Wishes

John Dehlin [00:50:14] I have to ask a question then. So the Mormon missionaries from America knew you're a minor, you're 14, right?

Sirisha Shumway [00:50:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:23] The Mormon missionaries knew that your parents did not want you?

Sirisha Shumway [00:50:27] Oh yeah, they knew, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:50:29] And so they were willing to support you hiding and deceiving your parents as a minority. They were supporting you taking lessons against the will of your guardians of your parents.

Sirisha Shumway [00:50:45] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] I mean that, that seems problematic from the morals and the values I was raised in. The sense that parents should. Of minors should be respected. Right?

Sirisha Shumway [00:50:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. My parents were not at all happy with that. My mom literally shut the door. Missionaries know very well that my parents are completely against it. And I was on the way to school, they said they saw me and I was like, okay, I can come to the church. So I finished rest of the discussions at the church. Finally they asked me to be baptized. And oh my goodness, my mom didn't even want these missionaries in the house. She didn't even want me to read the Book of Mormon. Do you think she's going to say yes to baptism? Absolutely no. So I tried to ask, my mom would get angry and she would beat me up. So.

John Dehlin [00:51:40] And I would go, you said beat you up?

Sirisha Shumway [00:51:42] Oh, I was physically abused by my mom. Physically.

John Dehlin [00:51:46] So what the missionaries, Mormon missionaries were doing to you was causing you to be. Not only disobey your parents, but to be beat by your parents. And they were okay continuing to teach.

Sirisha Shumway [00:51:57] I don't know if they know at the time that I was physically beaten, but, but for sure they know that my parents are not happy with this. They know that for sure. I don't know about the physical.

John Dehlin [00:52:09] Were they concerned, were they conflicted about disobeying your parents?

Sirisha Shumway [00:52:13] I don't know. I don't know what's going on in their mind. All I saw them was doing is encouraging me and you know, and I would say things like, I really want to get baptized. You know, I wanted to at that time.

John Dehlin [00:52:27] And again, you're 14.

Sirisha Shumway [00:52:29] I was 14, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:30] I mean, can a 14 year old consent? Like in several matters it's understood that like sexually, a 14 year old can't consent to sex with an adult. I wonder if religion should have that same level of, I don't know, informed consent. You know what I mean?

Margi Dehlin [00:52:49] Ethics.

Sirisha Shumway [00:52:51] I don't think religion should be an exception because I would say religion is more, I mean, yeah, sexual acts are damaging and so is religious thing too. It's not like anything simple. So I think so for sure the missionaries, they know that my parents are not at all happy with that. I highly doubt if they know about the physical abuse that is going on, but for sure they know this is what. So they asked me and they read the scriptures. You know, the God will provide a way first. Nephi 3, 7. If God commands, I will make provide.

Sirisha Shumway [00:53:24] So on December 7th, I guess it was first Sunday, and they fasted. And then they said, okay, we're going to ask your parents again. So they came. The missionaries came to home, my home that day. My mom was not home. There was no way, no way my mom would even let them in the house if she was there, forget about giving consent for my baptism. They wouldn't be even in my house. And my dad, he was there and he was under the influence. I don't know if the missionaries know that. I cannot speak to that about them. But, you know, the missionaries spoke to my dad and I spoke and he.

Sirisha Shumway [00:54:01] The missionaries wrote a. Took a little piece of paper from their notebook. They wrote, and I'm letting my daughter baptism something. It's not like any official doc or anything.

John Dehlin [00:54:10] It's a consent form.

Sirisha Shumway [00:54:10] It's a consent form and my dad signed it. It's so funny. Later years, when I asked my dad, do you know that you are the one who gave me permission? He's like, I never gave you permission.

John Dehlin [00:54:23] Well, you said in your outline he was drunk.

Sirisha Shumway [00:54:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not quite sure how drunk he was at that time, but, you know, I don't know if he's doing what he's. At that time, I didn't know. But later, when I asked him about his consent and I told him you were the one who gave, he said he never gave. He doesn't.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:46] He didn't.

Sirisha Shumway [00:54:46] Didn't even realize what he was doing.

John Dehlin [00:54:48] And I remember reading your outline that you were inspired by the story of Nephi from Laban, because. Do you want to tell that?

Sirisha Shumway [00:54:56] Yeah, yeah, that's what I was told. That's what, you know. You know, the Lord provided the way. When the Lord asked Nephi to bring the plates from Laban, you know, Nephi said, I hope I remember. I haven't read the Scriptures in years. You know, I will go and do the things the Lord has commanded. For God giveth no commandment to the children of men, save he should prepare a way. And Nephi, that was my inspiration. That was my inspiration.

John Dehlin [00:55:21] Laban was drunk. Nephi wanted the plates. And so God basically told Nephi to wait till Laban was drunk and then what?

Sirisha Shumway [00:55:31] Yeah, cut him off already.

John Dehlin [00:55:33] Yeah, cut his head off. And steal the plates. In other words, God's okay for you to do bad things.

Sirisha Shumway [00:55:41] That's what at that time, I thought at that time, that was my rationale. I mean, I was 14. Please don't judge me for that.

John Dehlin [00:55:47] No, no, no, no.

Sirisha Shumway [00:55:48] But at that time, yes. If God can, you know, a good thing will happen from a bad thing for me, you know, God's okay with that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:58] So deceiving your dad, who's intoxicated to sign a consent form for your baptism, it's much less bad than killing, right? Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [00:56:07] I don't know. I didn't think about at the time, like, deceiving him or something, but I looked at it in a different way. I looked at it as God providing me the way.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:17] That's right.

Sirisha Shumway [00:56:17] That was. I was thinking. It wasn't for me. In my mind, it's like I'm deceiving him now. Yes. I think, you know, I shouldn't have done that, you know, but at that time, it was. I looked at myself as how God provided a way to Laban Nephi. He's providing a way for me. That was. I was looking at. And I got baptized. You know, it was funny. I was like, taking some clothes, you know, preparing myself, you know, with my backpack, and I got baptized on December 17, 1995.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] And your parents didn't know?

Sirisha Shumway [00:56:54] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:56:55] And you were 14, right. Okay. Okay. How was that?

Sirisha Shumway [00:57:01] The baptism day was like. I thought I achieved some of one of the greatest things. I felt more happy than someone who will get a Nobel Peace Prize. But it was very hard. Life from then was very hard and filled with so many sacrifices. Especially Mormonism is not once in a week, an hour or two kind of religion.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:27] That's right.

Sirisha Shumway [00:57:28] It is not. It is a daily religion. And I have to tell you something very interesting. I, as a kid, I was very, very interested in music. And my mom, as I told you, only thing she believes is education.

Sirisha Shumway [00:57:44] That's it. And she wouldn't allow me to go. So what I used to do, my mom used to put 10 rupees every day in a box when she was going to work to buy myself some lunch because she didn't have time to make it. So I would save up all that money and I joined myself in this music. It's called Kakatiya Music Academy. It's very famous. In those days, right near to my school, I used to go and learn this instrument called veena. I used to play veena. It's an Indian instrument. And I used to learn Carnatic music, and I loved it. So when the missionaries.

Sirisha Shumway [00:58:16] The seminary used to be after school in those days. So when I joined. So the seminary teacher came and said, now, this is seminary. You have to join it. Now I don't have enough time or enough, you know, to manage my music and this and also the timings. So I had to sacrifice. I gave up on my music lessons so that I can go to seminary five days a week.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:40] So what it shows is you giving up something that really brought you a lot of joy, which was music that you were willing to use your lunch money for to have in your life. But when after you were baptized, you give up music and instead you start attending seminary. Yeah, Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [00:58:59] I mean, if it is a normal, healthy family, you know, they would be like, you know, okay, you can go to church and you can do this. But I didn't have the choice of doing all the things I wanted to. Even Sunday. Every Sunday was a struggle. And I don't ever remember missing Sundays. I was very. You know, my mom was thinking that, yeah, I was going to church sometimes, you know, like. But. But she doesn't know that I was baptized. I was this involved. Okay, she's just going with friends, or she's just coming, and not a big deal, but it wasn't. So it was a struggle. Sometimes she'll say, you can't go again. There was a lot of physical abuse. A lot of physical abuse. And I just did. I just went. Because for me, this means a lot. And I was seminary graduate. I did four years of seminary.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:45] Wow.

Sirisha Shumway [00:59:45] Yeah. And I did everything. Anything they asked. It's so funny. Like, when I was investigating, when the missionaries said they would give commitment about. I remember in India, if you go to an Indian family, they'll give you tea chai. And we gave the tea to the people, to the missionaries, and they said, no, we don't drink tea. And when they talked about word of wisdom, I don't know, I committed. And I just said, okay, I actually love tea. And. And I said, yep, I'll never drink. It was not hard for me. It's very hard for an average Indian to give up their tea.

John Dehlin [01:00:23] Well, isn't India the country of tea? Like, kind of.

Sirisha Shumway [01:00:26] We love tea. We love tea.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:28] So there's that cultural layer, too.

Sirisha Shumway [01:00:30] It's a culture. You go to anybody's home, you get tea. If you get anything, tea, samosas or whatever. But tea has to be there. So for an Indian, you know, when I was on a mission, people can give up everything, but not their tea, you know, so for me, I was so committed. I told the missionaries, I will not drink tea. Never drank all those 24 years I was there. 24, 25.

John Dehlin [01:00:57] Maybe that's another reason the Mormon Church hasn't had as much success in India. Because of tea. Seriously? Maybe.

Sirisha Shumway [01:01:04] Could be. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:05] Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [01:01:05] And even with tithing, when they said, will you pay 10% of everything? I was like, 14. I don't know what I was thinking. I said, yep. And I did it until. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:15] Do you know what I was thinking is also, it sounds like the moment that you got baptized and your parents didn't know about that. Right. That was something that you had to keep hidden.

Sirisha Shumway [01:01:28] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:29] So the moment you got baptized and joined the Mormon Church, in a way, was the moment you really had to start a double life.

Sirisha Shumway [01:01:40] Yeah, I have to. It's very, extremely hard as someone that young to do that. Yeah, yeah, it was. It's very hard. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:52] But I also want to know that you had a really rough life as a kid.

Sirisha Shumway [01:01:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:58] And you probably joined. We've already talked about many of the reasons why you joined, but what I've noticed is that religion exists because it fits needs. It gives people community, it gives people friends, it gives people a set of morals, it gives people a sense of spirituality. It gives people answers about life and its purpose and the afterlife. Like, I'm guessing you felt like the church was benefiting your life.

Early Benefits and Tensions After Joining

Sirisha Shumway [01:02:30] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:02:30] Is that true? And if so, can you tell us the ways that you felt like the Mormon Church was blessing your life even after your baptism?

Sirisha Shumway [01:02:38] Yeah, it was blessing because again, I said, is the love and the friendships

John Dehlin [01:02:44] I made there, the community.

Sirisha Shumway [01:02:45] The community which is. Which I didn't have before, the love and the acceptance, they have it. I got a sense of community. I think that's what people are really looking for. And I did get all those things. You know, I had some that I thought they cared about me. At least at that time, I had good friends. I forgot some of my pain. At least a couple of hours I was at the church. I have to give the credit where the credit is due. During that time, the little pockets of joy, the little pockets of happiness I ever felt were actually when I was with other Mormons, giving you safety. Giving me safety. Giving me the, you know, a safety net to fall back on to place that I can go to.

John Dehlin [01:03:34] I would also guess that, you know, if you. If your parents of origin aren't able to love you, believing that there's a heavenly father that loves you, like you said, A heavenly father that loves you unconditionally, that knows you, a Jesus figure who died for you.

Sirisha Shumway [01:03:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:55] I imagine that would almost help replace the role of loving, safe parents in your life. Is that right?

Sirisha Shumway [01:04:04] Yeah. And even the scriptures also says that, you know, you need to love God more. You know, your parents even come after that. Do what is right first. Do God first. The church, the God first. You know, like, what do we do in the temple?

Sirisha Shumway [01:04:22] You are doing all your dedication to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Right. It's that thing that comes first. Everything else is secondary. Probably if you go to a Hindu and if you say, oh, I can't come to the temple anymore, my parents are upset. I don't know. The priest would say, oh, it doesn't matter what your parents would say. I don't know.

Sirisha Shumway [01:04:44] It's not that strong there. But here it was like, God will bless you, what you're going through. He will give you tenfold, he'll give you hundredfold. And yeah, yeah, it was. And I wouldn't always again say, I always had the safety net. Even in the church. Yes. There are some good friends there. I'm not agreeing. But there are some people. It attracts some kind of people, I would say, because there is this person. I'm not going to tell the name, but there is this person who was much older than me, way much older than me. And I used to call him Annaya. Annaya. In India, when you say that in Telugu, it means you really consider them like your own brother.

Sirisha Shumway [01:05:28] You're not just a friend or some colleague or something. You are like your own brother. And that's what I considered. And he used to call me that. Chelli. Chelli means like, you know, like a younger sister. One day he comes to me and he says, hey, you know how to talk to you something. And I was like, what?

Sirisha Shumway [01:05:46] Last night I was asleep and then the angel came to me. And the angel said, give me your hand. And I gave my hand. And the angel held my hand. And the angel told me, sirisha is not. God didn't create her to be your sister. She should be your wife.

John Dehlin [01:06:00] How old was he?

Sirisha Shumway [01:06:02] About, I. I don't know, late 20s, early 30s or something.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] And you were how old?

Sirisha Shumway [01:06:08] I was like 14. 15. 15 or something.

John Dehlin [01:06:12] And he was a member of the church?

Sirisha Shumway [01:06:13] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:15] So what was that like for you?

Sirisha Shumway [01:06:17] Oh, my goodness. I was like. I was shocked because for me, I considered him like a brother and I didn't like that at all. And I went and told the Bishop. They didn't do anything, they didn't say anything and I was like so shocked and yeah, it was. That kind of creepiness went on for some time.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:45] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] So that doesn't just happen in Utah, apparently.

Sirisha Shumway [01:06:48] Wow. Apparently not.

John Dehlin [01:06:52] So.

Sirisha Shumway [01:06:52] Yeah, I had that experience in India.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:57] So disturbing.

Sirisha Shumway [01:06:58] Yeah, very disturbing. Very disturbing at that time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:01] Yeah. Because how do you know that an angel didn't as a 14 year old girl, 15 year old girl. How do you know that an angel didn't appear to him? If angels appear to people. Right.

Sirisha Shumway [01:07:11] Yeah. And also it is really the male patriarchy. First of all, India is a very, you know, honestly, let's talk about the things males get. Always importance, even in a culture. I'm not even talking about the Mormon or Christian. In a culture like India where men are like, you know little about, they're treated differently. And to top it off with the Mormon concept of priesthood and all these things, oh my goodness. Some of the men in India, the

Margi Dehlin [01:07:41] way

Sirisha Shumway [01:07:44] it's not pleasant to be around them, honestly, I don't want to really go deep, deep into that. It's really sometimes the way they treat women. I'm not again talking about all of them. There are some good Mormon members, but also it gives them already people who have this little egoistic thing. It gives them a boost.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:05] That's right. Amplifies it.

Sirisha Shumway [01:08:07] I feel like amplifies their thing gives them more. It's not like in India in my culture, like men will feel that way if they have done great things in life. You know, like they have great education, we have big social status and stuff and people, you know, I mean, I'm not saying that's the right thing, but that's how it is. But if you come in the. These people may not be even educated. They didn't even finish their plus two. But they have the same level like other Indian who are having a big position or something like that. Because they give that being confident is good. But here it is another level.

John Dehlin [01:08:49] It sounds like it's bordering on being

Sirisha Shumway [01:08:50] abusive almost to be like that. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:08:53] And you're saying Mormon priesthood and patriarchy can make some Mormon men a bordering abusive when they really haven't achieved much in their life.

Sirisha Shumway [01:09:05] No, no, absolutely. Like, you know, I know how some people treated me and these people, some of these guys who were. They didn't even like finish their undergrad. I'm not saying anything less or anything, but the way they would treat, you know, like. And someone like who has dual masters, you know, like in an outside world, even In India, a woman who was that educated, she wouldn'. You know, take things from them. But then I was told constantly, oh, I need to respect that. If some person says offends me or says, you know, like something. And I go talk to a couple missionaries, so and so did that.

Sirisha Shumway [01:09:44] And they will say, you need to learn to forgive. God is trying to teach you a lesson. So it's always my fault. Like, I remember once a missionary, a male missionary. This was actually after my mission, right after, almost right after my mission, he comes and he says, you know, first, first of all, I wear very conservative clothes, even in my culture and stuff. He comes and he says, your shirt is too tight. And I'm not able to focus on the work or something like that. He came and told me and I felt so terrible, like, I'm such a bad person. I went and asked this sister, you know, was my shirt too tight?

Margi Dehlin [01:10:23] Was it?

Sirisha Shumway [01:10:23] And she's like, is my shirt too tight? She was like, you know, getting conscious, you know, about these things. Oh, my goodness. You know, it's all. It's your fault, right? In that culture, like, not in my culture. I mean, I'm talking about in the Mormonism.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:36] That's right.

Sirisha Shumway [01:10:37] I would have a different thing to say to that elder if he comes to me now with that thing. But at that time I was like, you know, you always make yourself low.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:46] That's right, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:49] Did you tell us whether you actually told your parents that you got baptized and what their reaction was?

Sirisha Shumway [01:10:54] Okay, I didn't tell, but they came to know. So I got baptized in 1995, December. I kept it for secret for a few years. Although my mom knows. Yes, I'm meeting church members, I go. But she has no clue about me going to seminary classes or spending all this time. So my mom came to know when the first building they built in, I think it's first or second Rajamandri Chapel. So they built. That's where I grew up.

Sirisha Shumway [01:11:25] I think I'm just chronologically going back and forth. I should really confuse. So, okay, let me take you back a little bit more. So I got baptized in Raja Manri and I was going to church there. And it is becoming very hard because my mom was very against it. So for undergrad degree, I finished my plus two, which is 12th grade and undergrad degree. I thought, okay, this is it. I need to move to a different place. And I got there is this place called Hyderabad, which is not that far from rajmandary. It's about 8 hours train ride overnight Train ride. The church is very strong.

Sirisha Shumway [01:12:05] Even in those days they have four branches. So my parents doesn't know. My mom has no clue about that. So my mom said, well, why can't you stay here and study? And I said, no, no, no, I want to go to Hyderabad. I'll get more exposure. There are better colleges there. And that's how my mom would. Oh, better colleges, okay, by all means. Because she's very focused on education.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:26] That's her value of education to her.

Sirisha Shumway [01:12:28] Exactly. I spoke to her language and I got accepted. I wrote the entrance dress and I moved to Hyderabad, stayed in a hostel and was going to church. And I was like a free bird. I got all kinds of callings. I was, I was called as soon as I came to Hyderabad. I was even called as a translator for the church. So I used to translate the non scripture at that time, all the manuals, videos and everything.

Sirisha Shumway [01:12:59] And I had callings. I was young woman president. I was doing everything. Oh my goodness. All these years of deprivation. I think I moved to Hyderabad sometimes towards the end of 1999. So all these years of, you know, being scared to go to church. Now I'm freely able to go, spend time and do all the things I wanted to. So that's how life was going. And then Rajamindri Chapel, they were building and dedicating that. So my mom was there and I went to visit and I thought, you know, my mom would like it, you know, she can meet some people. And I said, oh, the chapel they're dedicating.

Sirisha Shumway [01:13:37] You want to just come in? It's like big, you know, first time there, like in a chapel. So. And I told everybody around, my mom doesn't know that I was baptized. I don't remember which year was that Raju Mandu Chapel dedication. I don't know if it is 2000 or something. I don't know. Good. Five years after my baptism at least, you know. And I was telling all my friends who were around there, please don't talk about my baptism. Please don't tell about me going to church or anything. You know, just, you know, don't say anything. And I told almost everybody except one sister who talks a lot and she's the one who was talking to my mom.

Sirisha Shumway [01:14:17] And the moment I saw that sister talking to my mom, I went running to stop her and it was too late. So she told my mom everything. Oh, your daughter is so active in the church in Hyderabad. She does this, she does that, that. My mom was, oh my goodness, you don't want to go There. I don't want to talk about it. This is she. You deceived me all these years. You lied to me all these years. I will never. It was. I broke her trust because she thought I went to Hyderabad and I have. I'm not doing any churchy thing. I'm just focusing on my education.

Sirisha Shumway [01:14:53] That's all I'm doing there. I am doing. Yes, I was getting education, but spending way more time on these things. So my mom was very, very disappointed. It was not easy thing. And I think at that time she realized that it's too late now because I'm much older, I'm in my early 20s and I'm living in a different city. There's not much she could do. It came to a point of giving up for her.

Celebrated for Defying Parents in the Church

John Dehlin [01:15:26] And you write in your outline that within the Mormon Church in India, you were celebrated for deceiving and or defying your parents. Is that right?

Sirisha Shumway [01:15:35] Yeah, again, it is. I wouldn't put it again that way. Deceiving. But then it is considered like strong faith that you're going against your parents wishes, you're going against the societal norms, you're going against it. And, and you know, that is a great thing.

John Dehlin [01:15:52] I don't want people to think I'm making that up. So your outline says my story of sacrifice and struggle against parents opposition was celebrated. Giving status in church.

Sirisha Shumway [01:16:02] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:16:03] I just want people to know I'm not making that up.

Sirisha Shumway [01:16:04] No, no, no, you're not. You're not making that up. But I don't. I mean, what I meant to say at the time is it's not like, oh, she's deceiving her parents, so we should be proud of her. That's what I meant to say. It's not that, but opposing your parents, you were celebrated. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Because that is shown as. Okay, look at her dedication. She didn't give up. Although her parents were against it. You know, she didn't give up. When I came to the, when I moved to the U.S. you know, my story was celebrated. Yeah. I was invited to different chapels, I was invited to speak in different places. You are absolutely right about that.

John Dehlin [01:16:47] One of the Ten Commandments is honor thy father and thy mother. So that celebration of you sort of dishonoring your parents runs in contrast to one of the Ten Commandments.

Sirisha Shumway [01:16:58] Exactly, exactly. I mean, everybody knew, at least in Rajamanri, that how my parents were against it. Everybody almost. You know, there were times they know my story. Yeah, they do.

John Dehlin [01:17:13] So you going back a little bit? I just don't Want to miss this part of your outline? You mentioned having feelings for a missionary when you're 15 or 16 and falling in love or dating or something, or returning missionary. Do you want to tell that story? Go ahead and back up and tell that story.

Sirisha Shumway [01:17:29] Okay, I will. Yeah. Sorry, I forgot that part. It's not that I had feelings for them. Again, that missionary is in India, and. Yeah. And I had never. I didn't think of initially. It was not any feelings for me at all. It was him approaching me.

John Dehlin [01:17:47] Okay.

Sirisha Shumway [01:17:48] And he was like, you know, he is much older. I don't know exactly his age at that time, but yeah. And he approached me and he said he was in love and he wanted to marry right after his meeting.

John Dehlin [01:18:04] Marry you?

Sirisha Shumway [01:18:05] Marry me after. Right after his mission.

John Dehlin [01:18:07] Okay.

Sirisha Shumway [01:18:07] I know in India, it's like, we don't date much or we just, you know, he proposed me and then I. I was like, too scared. I was like, what is he talking? You know, I was like, probably about 16 at the time. And I think he celebrated his birthday at that time when he was there. I remember it was 26th or something like that. Yeah, yeah, things like that. So I went to the sisters that I close. They're much older than me, and I said, you know, this elder is talking like that. And they were like, really? How lucky you. You know, that guy is such a strong testimony.

Sirisha Shumway [01:18:40] He's very spiritual. And all these years of sacrifice that you were going through, if you marry him, you can go to church freely. And, you know, they said they were so happy for me. And I was like, okay. Then I started to get feelings, you know, thinking, oh, that's true. You know, I can go. And he's a good person, you know, he's a strong Mormon priesthood holder. And what else I need? And all those people.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:10] What else do you need?

Sirisha Shumway [01:19:10] What else I need? Seriously? I mean, that's a story. Like, seriously. I got married at 29. I was. According to the Mormon thing, I was very late, and everybody said the same thing. He is. Every person comes into my life, it was like, he is a strong priesthood holder. That's all you need. As long as he is a strong priesthood holder, he can take you to the temple. He will take you to the temple. That's what you can.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:37] So you kind of. I'm getting that you have now several experiences of feeling pursued by someone significantly older than you and having messages that you should feel lucky you're chosen, and that makes you lucky.

Sirisha Shumway [01:19:55] For me, it's not that the person is how older than me, 10 or 20. But the fact that I was younger.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:00] That's right.

Sirisha Shumway [01:20:00] It bothers me more. It's not that the age gap, people do have 10, 15 years age gap when they marry. But the thing is I was under 18, I was young.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:10] That's right.

Sirisha Shumway [01:20:11] So that is the one that. Because I was so immature and everything and anything these people said I believed.

John Dehlin [01:20:17] You know, this brings up something for me because I served my mission in Guatemala. I think there was kind of a socioeconomic education differential and a cultural power differential between Americans and Guatemalans. Do you know what Mormon missionaries call teenage girls who are investigating the church?

John Dehlin [01:20:42] Oh, gosh, they're called snakes. What? Yeah. Do you know why they're called snakes? No. The perception is that teenage girls in a developing country will pretend interest in joining the church so that then they can marry the American Mormon missionary and have a chance of going and moving to the States. And so the implication your sort of fear is put into you as a young American Mormon missionary in a foreign country. Be careful for the snakes. They were called culebra. Culebras because they are out to sleep with you so that you'll marry them so that then you'll take them to the States and they can become citizens.

John Dehlin [01:21:40] So that's kind of a mentality. There's this like, oh my goodness. So on the one hand they're snakes, be careful. But on the other hand you want to baptize them because they show a lot of interest and you know, you can use that power or influence to get them interested in the church so that then you can baptize them. So it's a dual situation.

Sirisha Shumway [01:22:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:03] So were you aware of that?

Sirisha Shumway [01:22:05] I wasn't aware of that. I mean, I was 14, I didn't even have. Honest. Honestly. I was very childish. I know how 14 years old think that these days, you know, boyfriends and dating. For me that concept didn't even for us. You know, I come from a family, a very conservative family where arranged marriages and all my cousins and stuff. So I knew that wasn't even. Honestly, John, I'm telling you today, I was never even interested in marriage growing up. I was not planning on it or anything. The reason being is seeing my own parents.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:39] Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [01:22:40] If that is marriage. And not just my parents, some other people surrounded me at the time. Even in my other extended family, I didn't want be that. So when I planned my future at that time, when I dreamed of my future, I was not dreaming of family, husband, kids. I was dreaming of being a powerful woman. Being of, in a position of like my dad was always telling me, me walking and men standing up.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:08] That's right.

Sirisha Shumway [01:23:09] That was the picture my dad put in my head and that's what I wanted to do. So for me, when they came here, when in the Mormon culture and they were like talking about, oh, marriage is so important. If not, you can't even go into the highest degree in celestial kingdom, you would never even make there. And they would say something like, I forget a lot of the terminology now. It's a ministering angels. I think they're called ministering angels. You will be forever. It doesn't matter how good you are, doesn't matter everything you do. If you're not married and if you don't have children, you cannot be.

John Dehlin [01:23:42] You'll basically be a servant. A servant to married Mormon couples in heaven for eternity.

Sirisha Shumway [01:23:48] That's exactly, I don't know how far that is true, but that's exactly what I was told.

John Dehlin [01:23:52] No, that's a Mormon doctrine.

Sirisha Shumway [01:23:54] So that's what I was told. And I was. And then the women who were at that time telling me, you know, you're so lucky this missionary is coming. And at that time I didn't even know that missionaries had these rules or anything. I was very young, naive, I have no rules about these things. So I didn't know it was what he was doing was actually breaking the mission rules even in that culture.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:18] But, but interesting.

John Dehlin [01:24:20] Well, the only reason I'm mentioning that is because I'm reflecting on our missionary practices and what I'm realizing is, number one, it's awful that teenage convert girls are viewed as snakes. But there's an age and a power and a cultural differential. That should be noted that these are 14, 13, 14, 15, 16 year old girls. They're minors. And there is undue influence when white, tall, wealthy American missionaries come into a developing country and start, you know, showing interest in these teenage girls. Yeah, yeah, that's a, that's a power differential.

Sirisha Shumway [01:25:05] Yeah, yeah, there is definitely, you know, yeah, I agree with that.

John Dehlin [01:25:12] Yeah. It can lead to undue influence.

Sirisha Shumway [01:25:14] It's not just young teenage girls. It could be on anybody in a culture, in our culture where most of the population is below average household income. And you know, for them to see this church portrays a picture of wealth, success, something. Oh my goodness, look at those people. Oh my goodness, you know, like, will I be ever like them? Not just, not just like, you know, spiritual or something, even like in their material stuff. I didn't realize the difference at dollar or, you know, I knew it has more value, but it really, like wants you. They are in a pedestal. You admire them and you want to do everything they told you to do. You want to be like them.

John Dehlin [01:26:04] How many rupees for a dollar?

Sirisha Shumway [01:26:06] Now it is about 85.

John Dehlin [01:26:07] 85 rupees.

Sirisha Shumway [01:26:08] 85 rupees, I think now. $1 85. Yeah.

Romantic Feelings and Missionary Relationships

John Dehlin [01:26:13] So what happened with this missionary that showed interest in you?

Sirisha Shumway [01:26:16] Oh, yeah. And then he would write letters. You know, I remember back in those days they used to have this flowery letterheads and you know, all these things how he'll come marry me and stuff. And the ironic thing is this person, the other person who came to me and he told me that he should marry the angel. You know, that guy, one day he comes to me and he was like, you know, oh, that person is. He was still on mission, but he's coming to Rajmanri. He's like, you have to keep your heart very strong. You're going to hear something very bad news. I'm like, what bad news?

Sirisha Shumway [01:26:54] I just didn't understand what could go wrong. And then that missionary comes to me and he's basically. He's like, you know, he's breaking up and he can't. I was like, what? I still don't understand the reason till today. What happened.

Sirisha Shumway [01:27:08] I don't know how this guy, the guy, the angel came and told no before anybody else that he came and told me. I don't know what happened there till today, but I don't care. But yeah. And that actually took me, this I have to tell, into a very deep depression. Because first of all, I was not thinking of him in that way. My goal was very, very different, which doesn't align with church. You know, my goal was to study hard and make myself independent. And there these women telling you are so lucky that this guy even like, you know, said that and said I should pursue and stuff.

Sirisha Shumway [01:27:49] And now he's saying, I mean, I was dreaming of, oh, I'm going to marry in the temple, I'm going to have these kids, I'll go to church and all these things, you know, and then he comes and he breaks it. I was in such a deep depression already. I have a very rough time in the house already. I'm seeing hell in the house.

Sirisha Shumway [01:28:07] It only added on the top of it. And I didn't even have a space to sit and cry. I was. I think I was 17 during this time. I would say, I would. My mom would ask me to go get something from the store or something.

Sirisha Shumway [01:28:24] There is A little space between houses. I would just go stand there and cry my heart out. It was. What he has done was not right. And what these women especially, they were much older than me. They should know better.

Sirisha Shumway [01:28:42] I trusted them. I trusted all the church members. For them to say that, you need to go pursue this. It was not right. And it affected me in a. Negatively in my education, everything. It was really hard.

John Dehlin [01:28:57] I'm so sorry. Yeah, yeah. When religion's involved, it raises the stakes in the emotions of everything. Right?

Margi Dehlin [01:29:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:05] Right?

Sirisha Shumway [01:29:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It does. It does. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:10] Okay, so let's talk about, you know, what leads up to you serving a mission.

Sirisha Shumway [01:29:15] Oh, yes. So the next thing. So my mom came to know about my mission and. And she kind of.

John Dehlin [01:29:21] About your baptism.

Sirisha Shumway [01:29:22] Sorry about my baptism. That's what I meant to say about my baptism. And she wasn't happy. But then there's not much she can do. I was already in. And she said, but make sure you have good education. And I always promised my mom that I will not take my focus off of there. It will always be there. I'll get my degree and then I want to go on a mission. So that was another big episode I submitted. I didn't tell my mom or parents of anything that I'm submitting permission or anything. I applied for admission.

John Dehlin [01:29:57] And was that while you were in the middle of school? Were you in college?

Sirisha Shumway [01:30:00] I finished my school. I finished my undergrad.

John Dehlin [01:30:03] Okay.

Sirisha Shumway [01:30:05] Three years undergrad in India. I have bachelor of computer applications. So I finished my bachelor's in computer applications and applied for my mission. Not right after, there was some space in between, but applied for my mission and I got my mission call. I just wanted to give as less time between my call and leaving so that there will be. I knew, you know, I knew I'm going to go anyways, but I just don't know. Anyways, so I got my call and I got my date. I think sometime in September I was to go to MTC in Philippines. So I finally. When I have few, I got all my stuff ready and my clothes, everything. I was. I told you I was working as a translator for the church and I was able to earn some money from that.

John Dehlin [01:30:57] Were they paying you for that?

Sirisha Shumway [01:30:58] Yes. Yeah, they did pay. Some are volunteers. I work some like temple work and stuff. But some are paid. So I was getting paid.

John Dehlin [01:31:08] And what'd you translate?

Sirisha Shumway [01:31:09] Just so I translate. I don't know. Remember my projects exactly? Young woman manual, primary manuals, Some of the videos. I even did another video. I remember Them taking me to Bengaluru to do a video production at the time. So I did a lot over the years because I got called as trans. It's not calling, it's also talent based. I went through rigorous testing.

Sirisha Shumway [01:31:35] My bishop. I didn't even know exactly what I was testing for, but I had to take English language test, Telugu translation test. I had to pass all those tests. And then I was called as a translator. And yeah, with that money, I did get paid. And I used that money for the church thing again. For me, I actually, I remember telling my language supervisor when I did my first project, I didn't even know that I was getting paid.

Sirisha Shumway [01:32:03] I just submitted my project. He's like, where is your invoice? And I'm like, like, what invoice? He's like, you know, you're getting paid for this. I said, no, I don't want to get paid. It is God's work and I want to do it for him. I don't want to get paid for this.

Sirisha Shumway [01:32:18] He said, you know, the church is very strict on this. We just can't give your money. You can take and do whatever you want with it. So I ensure that when I got that money, other people are like using for different things. They would talk about how they bought this and that for me. I felt this is God's work. I just can't use this money for myself. So I used it again for the church related stuff and paid extra, tithing paid extra. This thing paid extra that I did. And then used that money for my mission stuff, clothes or whatever.

John Dehlin [01:32:50] So the church got all that money back.

Sirisha Shumway [01:32:53] I would say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of it, yeah, yeah. I mean they didn't ask for it, but it was my choice. I gave thinking this is what the reason I'm telling you these things is. I wanted to tell you at the end, you know what all these people told me once I started having questions about my commitment or my dedication and sacrifice? Yeah, that money, I didn't use it for myself.

Sirisha Shumway [01:33:20] I used it back for the church. Anybody needed something. And also at the time I didn't know the church has billion dollar. All these things is super rich. I remember when 300 billion. Oh, I didn't know. I didn't know all those numbers. But at that time I didn't know there were. When somebody needs help, when they come to the bishop, the bishop would ask so many questions, sometimes they wouldn't get the help they need. Sometimes they do get help, but sometimes they don't. So what I would Do I would use this money to help them and tell them the church helped them.

Sirisha Shumway [01:33:52] In my mind I was thinking that is true because it is a. Although it is the money I earned through translation. But again it's a church's money. So I would give that money to them and tell them, hey, this is from the church, you know, like that and buy the groceries. If they need something, I would use it back. I didn't use. And I didn't come from super wealthy family or anything. I could have used that money for myself, but I never used it. I only gave to the church.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:18] Yes, that is so significant.

Sirisha Shumway [01:34:19] Only gave, never took any. Anything. I can say it, hundred percent. Never took anything. Only gave it.

John Dehlin [01:34:26] Religion's a good business, man.

Sirisha Shumway [01:34:28] Oh yeah, I wish I could do that, John. You know, I work so hard for my thing and I hardly, you know, I mean they okay, but my job. But man, religion, it's a great business. You just have to say a few words and anyways.

Preparing for and Receiving a Mission Call

John Dehlin [01:34:41] So how did your family react to your mission call?

Sirisha Shumway [01:34:44] Mission call, exactly. Oh my goodness, I go everywhere. So I called my mom. I didn't call my mom. I was so scared. I remember the district president at that time, I said, can you call my mom and tell him that.

Sirisha Shumway [01:34:58] Tell her that I got my mission call. And at this time also I want to tell you. When I newly came to Hyderabad, my dad left us one day my mom called, she said, your dad is not here. I was like, what do you mean he's left? Like he said he was going on a camp, which he does, you know, go for weeks or something. He never came back. And I said, is he okay? And she said, yeah, he's absolutely fine. Because the government housing, he gets a government vehicle and a driver and stuff. So it was given to somebody else. And they said, you need to vacate this house because we're going.

Sirisha Shumway [01:35:36] So we were. Financially I was not in a good position, honestly at that time. And I still never took that translation money. My mom was struggling because my dad left us anyway, so my dad left. He's completely out of the picture at this time. All these years in Hyderabad, he didn't contact me or anything.

Sirisha Shumway [01:35:58] So I got my mission call and I told my district president, I was in his office and I said, can you please call my mom and tell her? Because I was so scared. And he called my mom and he just casually said, your daughter got mission call and stuff. I don't know how hardly she or how loud she yelled at him. He said, okay, you talk to Your

Margi Dehlin [01:36:18] mom pass the phone.

Sirisha Shumway [01:36:20] He gave the phone. My mom said, take a next train. Pack everything you have in Hyderabad. Just come home right now. And I was like trying to explain to her. She said, I'm not listening anything to you. Pack your bag. I don't want any single thing. You're not going back to Hyderabad. Pack everything. Come to Vijayvada. That's it. I'm not going to hear anything.

Sirisha Shumway [01:36:44] And I was going to Vijayawada. There was a couple missionary at that time. And I was, I was like so scared. I knew something. My mom would not be happy with this. I told that couple of missionaries. My mom called and she said, pack everything, come. I'm just so scared. And I remember she gave me 500 rupees. And she said, if it gets really hard, if your mom doesn't let you go on mission, just take this money, buy a train ticket. Just come off. We'll take care of you. You are above age now. Nobody can tell you what you should or should not do.

John Dehlin [01:37:20] I just want to say that there's such a rub. Cause the Mormon Church claims family is the most important thing. But the way that it's treating you relative to your mom is not respecting your family. In this context, it's almost like only a faithful Mormon family is important. But if it's a mixed faith family, the non believers, they're out of picture completely.

Sirisha Shumway [01:37:49] They're out of picture.

John Dehlin [01:37:50] Yeah. That's not good.

Sirisha Shumway [01:37:52] No.

John Dehlin [01:37:52] Because they're driving a wedge between you and your mom. And it sounds like your mom could have used your help at that point.

Sirisha Shumway [01:37:57] Oh yeah, absolutely. Like, absolutely. My mom was needing help actually because my dad left us with no, nothing. Not even a warning or anything. He's gone. And yeah, I could. And instead of helping my mom, here I am putting another big thing on her head saying, I'm going off to my mission, you know. And I remember the couple missionaries saying, she gave me that 500 rupees at the time. And she said, come off, you know, we'll take care of it. So I went to Vijayawada. My mom was furious. Yes, immediately. One of her brother lives in a state called Gujarat. He was a very. He's an IFS officer there.

Sirisha Shumway [01:38:36] Very respectable Indian Forest Service, very respectable position. He has his own bungalow given by the government, his own sick. You know, he has this guard at his house and stuff. So he's a very respectable guy. And she said, you are going to Gujarat. And I was like, what? You know. And she was like, yeah, they already booked my train and everything. And she said, you are going. That's it.

Sirisha Shumway [01:39:04] And I was taken there. And my uncle is like, you are not going on mission or anywhere. Just forget about it. We didn't even know that you were even going to church in Hyderabad. They have no clue. My whole entire family in India, at least in my family, family, when I said it's not just mom and dad, it's everyone. Your aunts, uncles, grandma, grandpa, everybody, they all have that say in your life. They all care about you. My uncle said you're not going on any mission.

Sirisha Shumway [01:39:34] So you're coming here. You're going to do your MBA in Gujarat. You're not even going to south anymore. So they made me to sit in the MBA entrance test. My uncle has lot of contact. So he made sure that my application was sent.

Sirisha Shumway [01:39:51] He sent me. But he can't write a test for me. I remember sitting there, I remember it's a place, Ahmedabad, where my uncle's friends university is there. And I didn't even open the question sheet. The answers that you write there for the entrance test. And then I told this person and I said, I don't know why my uncle is making me do this. I am going on my Mormon mission. I already got a call. I already have a date. I'm not doing mba.

John Dehlin [01:40:21] So you intentionally failed the MBA entrance test.

Sirisha Shumway [01:40:24] I didn't even write it. I didn't even write the entrance test.

John Dehlin [01:40:26] So you intentionally failed.

Sirisha Shumway [01:40:27] Intentionally failed intentionally. Because I want to go on a mission, right? Yeah, that's what. I already have a call. What's the point in writing this test? I didn't even open the questions sheet. And I was just sitting in this hall. I'm like again thinking the same story. Like, you know, Nephi, the Lord helped Nephi, the Lord helped Nephi. He will help me. That is one thing that is stuck in my head. And it is going to be there. And that, and that, that person, he is asking why didn't he even write this? And kind of, I feel kind of bad for my family because they were doing it out of love.

Sirisha Shumway [01:41:01] But I looked at them as enemies. Why are they doing this to me? Why can't they just accept this is the truth and stuff? And the distance was becoming more and more and more already. It was a dysfunctional family to start with. And everything the church was doing was bringing more and more and more distance.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:22] Right?

John Dehlin [01:41:23] This reminds me of Benjamin Halof's story.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:25] It does for me too.

Sirisha Shumway [01:41:27] It was bringing more and more distance. I didn't even write, I didn't even open the question seat. And when that person asked, I told about my uncle and he called my uncle and he said, why are you forcing her if she doesn't want to do it? You know. And my uncle didn't understand, but he was like, you know, why is she doing that? So again, I was. Was brought back to my uncle's home and he's like, you are still not going on mission. Forget about that.

Sirisha Shumway [01:41:53] And that sister missionaries gave me that 500 rupees selling I can just run away. I even tried that. I was like one night. But then he has a security guard. He has a guard who, you know, they call it gurka. I don't know what it is, but he was there. And I'm like, okay, there is no way this guy is letting me to run away from my uncle's house. It was physically impossible, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:19] So in like they're basically staging an intervention for you. They're trying to intervene and kind of at this point with the Mormon Church to try and have it be that you actually there's no way you can go on a mission. There's no way like this official, without using a lot of control, like trying to force you to do other things, trying to force you back into a life, you know, that they approve of and want for you. But it sounds like also without a lot of emotional connection to you, without actually really talking to you.

Sirisha Shumway [01:43:02] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:03] Would you say that? Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [01:43:04] You know, I wish it was my family dealt it in a different way. Honestly, I wish instead of yelling at me, getting mad at me, beating me for going to church and all these things, I wish they sat me down, they talked to me and they say, hey, we love you more than any of those people. We want. This is best for you. Why don't you at least wait some time? At least, you know, this decade of decisions, that's what I am furious about.

Sirisha Shumway [01:43:34] That people can make their lives. I turned everything. I was going to be a different person. I was going to do something with my career. I was going to be something very different. But church kind of pulled everything, you know, you need to be married, you need to do this, you need complete. The focus was shift. Honestly, I said marriage was not at that time, you know, ever. I don't think I'm a kind of person who would be. It is unpopular thing to say this, but I don't really care what people think. But I'm not a kind of person who would sit at home, have a lot of kids, cook, clean.

Sirisha Shumway [01:44:10] I like to go out I like to make money, I like to be powerful. But I have to shift that thing because this is what is right for me. This is what expected of me. And change my brain, change my thinking to match what is being taught. Instead of me being truly be me the self.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:31] It's kind of like on a level betraying yourself.

Sirisha Shumway [01:44:34] It is Betraying myself.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:36] Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [01:44:36] So when my uncle, you know, he. When I brought and he said, you're not going. And I can't even run away with a guard. I can't even run away. So what is the thing I could do? I remember Gandhi.

Sirisha Shumway [01:44:48] Gandhi, he did a hunger strike, right? He believed in an I ahimsa. What do you call it? English? No, do no harm. Yeah, do no harm. And doing with love, doing with things. So instead of running and doing fighting, I can't fight. I don't know how to. So all I know how to do is to starve myself. That's what I do. No. So I locked myself in a room, didn't come out, didn't speak to anybody, didn't want to eat any food.

Sirisha Shumway [01:45:20] I don't remember the days, but my mom recently when I spoke to her about this era, she was like, like, you didn't eat food for three days, you know, like it was like you didn't want to talk to anybody. And I was like, I told them I'm not going to do mba and they wanted me to get married to somebody, at least marriage or something. Nope, I'm not going doing that. So I have to go on mission. Finally, the day of ultimatum came. My uncle called me and he said, okay, you have two choices. One, you love us, you stay with us. Forget about missions and all these things.

Sirisha Shumway [01:45:55] You know, we'll have a good life. You know, we'll take care of you. And especially he was like a father figure to me. He was always like a father figure to me. My dad was never really available when he never really was there, but he was my father figure. And the second choice, he said, is go to your mission but never come back home.

Sirisha Shumway [01:46:15] We are all dead to you. That is the thing. He said two things. Stay with us, forget about Mormons, or go on your mission, but don't ever come back. We are all gone. I didn't even take a breath. I said, I'm going on mission.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:31] Wow. Wow.

Sirisha Shumway [01:46:33] I didn't even think twice. Immediately. And he said, all these years of how we took care of you all these years like that. You just said, you'll go, okay, I'm booking you tickets. And my uncle booked my train ticket. He still cared about me. He still sent one of his workers to go with me to be, you know, to carry luggage and stuff. He sent me.

John Dehlin [01:47:01] And this was because you were starving yourself and willing to die for the church, for the Mormon Church.

Sirisha Shumway [01:47:06] Yeah. I didn't want to do mba. I didn't want to do anything. I didn't want to. To deal with life. And I honestly thought, if I can go on mission, what is this life for? What is this life for me? Because this church has so much truth. This is the truth. If I can teach people this thing, what is my life for? I don't care. I would die then. Up to you.

John Dehlin [01:47:35] I mean, two things I just want to note. If we were to swap out the name of the church for any other church, this would sound like a cult. You know what I'm saying?

Sirisha Shumway [01:47:48] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:49] Like, it would be a family feeling like their child was indoctrinated into a cult and that basically the cult stole their child from the child.

Sirisha Shumway [01:48:01] My mom literally said that. My mom literally said that. She's like, I cannot believe. Believe. You know, the church has taken you away from me this much. I didn't know it was happening. You know, she didn't know. My grandma was so disappointed. And. Yeah, and I gave up. I. I told, like, in a second, when my uncle said, choose go on mission. I said, I'm going on mission. And he sent me breaking all the ties, everything, all the family ties.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:30] And that was the sentiment as well, with Ben Halaf's parents as well, saying to him, we've lost, you know, feeling like they'd lost him.

John Dehlin [01:48:41] And that's. And that's such a hard thing for a Mormon to wrap their brain around, a believing Mormon, because missionary is one of the best things you can be. And you're preaching the truth and the gospel, so it can't be bad, no matter what. It can never be bad.

Sirisha Shumway [01:48:56] No, it can never be bad to

John Dehlin [01:48:58] teach the Mormon doctrine to people, even if it. And you could even find a scripture in the New Testament where Jesus said, I've come to separate, you know, parent from child.

Sirisha Shumway [01:49:08] You know, honestly, I forgot a lot of scriptures. I don't read anymore. A lot of things. But then now that, you know, you're mentioning all those things, I think there's something in doctrine Covenant, something like that, too. Whoever loses something will be given more like forgotten sake. I don't remember. I didn't want even for this to prepare. I didn't even really prepare. This is all from my heart. Whatever it is, I didn't have to, but at least I should have remembered some of the scriptures because I forgot. But they quoted all those things and I took those things to my heart

John Dehlin [01:49:44] because Jesus says something like, I've come to separate brother from sister or mother from child. That sort of rhetoric.

Sirisha Shumway [01:49:52] Yeah. And then people take it. I don't know what context he said that or did he even say that, but it was what it is taken. So I broke it and the family relationships and everything. And my uncle still cared. He just didn't say that. He came to the station, he had one of his people who works for him to go with me, to drop me. And I went on my mission and wrecking everything. And I was not like those missionary that, you know, who was flirting with me and stuff. I gave my everything. I went to Philippines, Manila mtc. That is the first time I even went to the temple there. I got endowed in Manila Temple in the Philippines.

John Dehlin [01:50:36] What did you think of the temple?

Sirisha Shumway [01:50:39] You know, honestly, it was not that was expected. Especially the initiatory was kind of little scary, especially coming from my culture and stuff. It was a little. I was taken aback because I was not prepared. But again I was blaming myself because, oh, you know, I should. I should have more faith. I should just trust the process. Especially when during that time they would give you a cloth, it has opening, you are naked inside completely. And they gave you something in the.

Sirisha Shumway [01:51:11] Just to cover in the. You know, and then they touch and they say touch your body and stuff. And not someone that is used to me and. And like. And again, anything I doubt I would blame myself and I need to have more faith. One other important aspect of something I have to tell you. After I got on the train, I was sitting in the train and I sat there and suddenly this voice came into my head.

Sirisha Shumway [01:51:42] Almost. Almost like it's as if somebody was talking to me. It's saying, you broke your family relationship, everything for this. What if this is wrong? In the train that day from Gujarat, when I was coming, when my uncle was sending me, I heard it as clearly as if somebody was talking to me. Me. There's nobody that I, you know, the person, you know me there. And it was, what if, if this is wrong?

Sirisha Shumway [01:52:12] And then I sat and I remember how church tells you when you had a doubt, that is Satan trying to help you. So you take off the equation of thinking or justifying, you know, an analytical brain at all. Right, Right. And I remember I used to have a small Walkman and I had the series of Church in a tabernacle choir. I put it on and then I put the full sound of music and I tried to vanish that feeling away instead of sitting and what if this is wrong instead? Oh, this is how Satan does that. Because they have solutions to everything.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:50] I would say thought stopping.

Sirisha Shumway [01:52:52] Thought stopping strategies for everything. I don't know how that. But. But that, you know, I really. I wish I didn't listen to that Walkman on that day. I wish I sat and I really did. And I wish I could speak to somebody. I don't know. I would still change my mind just like that. But I didn't even let that thought entertain. That thought of this could be wrong and what would I be doing leaving all this family.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:19] That's right.

Sirisha Shumway [01:53:19] So, yeah, I came and I. And I went on my mission.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:24] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:53:26] Wow. So powerful. I'm so sorry. So how was your mission?

Serving a Mission: Hardships and Harassment

Sirisha Shumway [01:53:31] My mission, it was hard, but I enjoyed it because that is what I wanted to do. I did have few experiences on my mission that. Not really happy things. One of them was how I've been. I don't know what you call it, right word. Sexual harassment by another missionary or something.

Sirisha Shumway [01:53:55] So what happened? I would. We give our phone numbers to everybody, right. We are not allowed to speak in mother tongue. You know, we are. We have to wear skirts and stuff. We give our numbers to everybody and people call all the time. So this person, I would get calls. I was like senior missionary. I would say senior companion at that time and then I would answer the phone calls and this person would call me and. And say really vulgar things. Really, really vulgar things on the phone.

Sirisha Shumway [01:54:24] And I called my mission president at that time and I called the assistants and I called, I let my seniors know, my district leaders or whatever. And they were trying all. In those days, we didn't have this. This is back in 2003, I guess. 2003. Four like that, I think. 2004.

Sirisha Shumway [01:54:43] And I told them this. I'm getting these calls from this random person and they're very vulgar. It went on for a few months and they said, okay, we're going to talk to the thing. They didn't do anything much. I mean, I didn't know they could do anything at that time. I don't know if they have any resources with the technology at the time. I don't know if it's possible to find it. But we were in a conference, a district conference with all the missionaries. And this elder comes to me.

Sirisha Shumway [01:55:14] I was just sitting and doing something. He comes to me and says those Same words that he said in the phone right to my face.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:20] So identifies. It's an identifier, right? Because he's repeating it.

Sirisha Shumway [01:55:24] And my brain still didn't understand that he was that person. And I was like, how do you know? I was asking him. Although I didn't tell him he was not the district leader or mission president or assistant. I was like, for me, it's so hard, like to. I don't see red flags or something, you know.

Sirisha Shumway [01:55:48] I was like, how do you know? And he was like, oh, it was me. And the smile vanished. I was like, what? And because he was so confident, next day was his release. He's finishing his mission and going. I immediately, the assistants, they were all there and the people, all the leaders of mission. And I went immediately and told them, you know, Elder, that the phone calls I've been getting, it is from this elder.

Sirisha Shumway [01:56:16] And he was like, oh, I remember this missionary that I told him, he said, I wish I didn't have this name tag. I would have gone and punched him on the face. But Sister, he's going home tomorrow. There's not much we can do.

Sirisha Shumway [01:56:33] But you know, I want you to forgive him. Like the Lord taught us how to forgive and stuff. So that person was released honorably. And he even said that maybe in paper he says release honorably. But I know in my heart that he is not released honorably. That's what I was told. After all that he has done to me, all that stress. I remember I used to call. I used to be very.

Sirisha Shumway [01:57:04] I'm a lively joy person. And someone calls, oh, Sister Coleuko from the Church of Jesus Christ, how can I help you? I used to always answer the phone calls and my mission president would call and he said, it is so joy just to hear your voice like that. And one day he called and I started taking the phone and doing this thinking, who is that? Unless I know who that then I'm going to introduce. Then one day he called and inside, instead of giving that answer, I just kept the phone like this. And he's like, sister Kolu. And I was like, yeah, oh, I thought you would say that.

Sirisha Shumway [01:57:39] And he's like, are you too scared to say that? I said, yeah, I was. So he knows, but nothing has been done about that.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:47] That's right.

Sirisha Shumway [01:57:48] So that is one experience. And another one was when I was serving in Chennai, I got a call from a mission president saying, my grandma passed away. The person who. One person who actually cared about me in this whole world.

Sirisha Shumway [01:58:11] And you know, she passed away and mission president said, if you want to go, we can, we can let you go. You know, just for a visit to go and see grandma and stuff. And then I remember all these people telling stories about how, again, it's not that they told me not to go, but then the kind of portrayal they give about the sacrifice, you know, oh, this missionary's mom died, but he didn't go because he worked that, you know, all these things.

Sirisha Shumway [01:58:47] You know, when the Mormon church or mission says, we never told people to say that, we never told people women should not work, we never said that. You know, you never said that out loud. But that's what you basically, you know, make people think that how that is, you know, you give all those examples and all these things. And I didn't go for my grandma's funeral.

Sirisha Shumway [01:59:09] And my uncle who actually broke the thing, broke the relationship, he actually called me. You know, he's the kind of person who doesn't. He has what do you call a lot of self respect. He doesn't come down easily. He's like, also his position, the power he has. He's not someone who steps down easily. He did. He called me personally, although he said, forget about the family, forget about all these things.

Sirisha Shumway [01:59:39] He called me and he said, can you please come? And I said, like, I can't. I'm doing the most important work. I was so sad. I was sobbing, I was depressed. I wouldn't sleep night. And I was, next day I'll still go and teach.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:54] Wow.

Sirisha Shumway [01:59:55] I didn't take one day or anything at all. I would cry when I'm at home or something. But I will go and did everything. Went to all my appointments, did everything that I needed to. I didn't go home. So it was the church was. I don't know how to say it. Is there any word in English language or any language for that matter, how much I trusted it, how much I gave everything, how much I gave everything, sacrifice everything, my family, my career, my ambitions, everything.

John Dehlin [02:00:42] And for those who think this might be an exception, I had a grandpa and a grandma die on my mission and I didn't even ask to go home. Didn't even ask. So. Had the same experience. Yeah. Except they didn't raise me.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:55] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:00:56] Very different.

Sirisha Shumway [02:00:57] She was one person, she was different. It's not like some grandma. Oh, you know, they're like, she was. I actually, honestly, I never called her grandma growing up. I thought she was my mom. I used to call her Amma. Amma means mom.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:10] Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [02:01:11] Because that's all I knew her And I remember once I called my mom auntie. Like in India, you call everybody auntie, even someone random on the street. Like, you know, for me. And my grandma would say, don't call her that. But my grandma was my amma. She was my mother. She was not like my grandma.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:29] Yeah, can we just take just one moment? And do you want to share a memory or two of her just in honor of her? What, how she made you feel or a certain memory or do you want to do that?

Sirisha Shumway [02:01:44] Oh, my God.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:47] You can even say how you remember her, what you remember about her. If there are particular moments or things that she loved to do that you associate with her.

Sirisha Shumway [02:01:59] I mean, like, she's a very simple woman. You know, she's a teeny little Indian woman in her sari and, you know, always sort of a knot, you know, all the pull her hair back and big glasses and taking me everywhere she goes, holding my hand all. She never let me go. She would let me go, I would run away.

Sirisha Shumway [02:02:20] I was always, you know, that one of those kids, she would wake up. And in India, we have this culture in the schools where the teachers beat kids, you know, growing up, you know, like, if you make noise or if you are not studying well or something. So one day in this class, we were all like, I was in second grade, I think. I think I was in second grade. We were all being rampakious kids everywhere. The teacher got really mad. She took a scale and started beating everybody up in the school. My grandma happened to walk in at that time to school, saw the teacher even giving that beating to me, man.

Sirisha Shumway [02:02:57] She fought with that teacher like crazy. She said, dare you ever raise your hand on my granddaughter? And she was so protective of me. And she's like, her mom doesn't even live here. If she cries for phone, what would I do?

Sirisha Shumway [02:03:12] And she said to the teacher, you don't ever do that, you know, and she never. The teacher would beat other kids or something, not me. And she always, like, you know, fed me with her own. Because I growing up, eating food was a big deal. So she would feed me with her own hands and take me everywhere. She was very, very protective of me. She. Even when I moved to Rajmanri, she actually came and lived with me because knowing that my both parents are not there.

Sirisha Shumway [02:03:42] But then her health started declining. I remember when I was going on my mission, I actually kind of felt that maybe I will not see her because her health was declining. She wouldn't recognize half of our family members, but my voice, she could hear me and she would recognize me. And my uncle said that like, she never even treated you like a grandkid. She had seven kids. I was like the eighth kid.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:10] Yeah, yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [02:04:12] She used to tell my uncle, please take care of her. She doesn't have good parents.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:21] Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [02:04:23] I didn't even go for her funeral. She's the most important person in my life. She was. And I thought, okay, I'll go get baptized for her in the temple. That is, she would be happy for me not knowing that I couldn't see her for the last time.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:41] Yeah, yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [02:04:47] I thought myself, I'm not going to cry. But I don't know. She was different.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:54] It sounds like it. Yeah. Thank you for sharing a bit about her.

John Dehlin [02:05:00] Thank you. Thank you. You mentioned your outline being flown to Salt Lake City to translate the temple ceremony.

Sirisha Shumway [02:05:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:05:14] Do you want to talk about that?

Sirisha Shumway [02:05:15] Yeah, Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:17] I don't mean to jump to a new segue.

Sirisha Shumway [02:05:18] No, no, no, no, that's fine.

John Dehlin [02:05:20] That was beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Sirisha Shumway [02:05:22] Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. It's just, you know, I don't talk about her a lot. I always think about her too, but had not many people know. But she deserves that.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:32] She does. She does deserve that.

Sirisha Shumway [02:05:35] Yeah. She. When she was baby. Sorry. When I was a baby, she would carry me and my uncle said that one. She fell and she even broke her arm. But she never stopped caring me. She was always, always there for me. Caring. Worrying about my future and me joining the church has reached. Really stressed her out. She was really started to worry. Anyway, so when I was serving in, I think Chennai, I think I got called from my supervisor through the. At the time he was an aut. Like we used to have a language supervisor. And he said, you have an interview to come and meet somebody in the church or something.

Sirisha Shumway [02:06:18] And they called a couple of people and then they finally I went for the interview. I didn't know what it was. They didn't tell me anything about it. They were just talking to me and I didn't understand what they were saying. And one day I get a call. They said, you are called to translate the temple ceremony into Telugu. And I was so like, I thought, this is it. This is what I was born for.

Sirisha Shumway [02:06:44] All these things are leading up to this, my mission. And I thought, even if I die after this, I have no regrets or anything. I have achieved everything that I could. And I came to Salt Lake City during my mission. I still had to. They had to take some special permission because they don't Fly missionaries come out of their mission and do those things. There are three people.

Sirisha Shumway [02:07:10] The other two were not missionaries. And I was there. I was the. The main translator for all the things. And I translated the whole Telugu ceremony into Telugu and I. They even called me. It was multiple trips. I came back and then I even gave my voice for Eve.

John Dehlin [02:07:32] You were. You were the voice of Eve in the Telugu Mormon temple ceremony?

Sirisha Shumway [02:07:37] Yeah. I don't know if now it might still be.

John Dehlin [02:07:40] He might still be.

Sirisha Shumway [02:07:41] I don't think so. I think that ceremony had. I think they changed it. The whole thing has changed. But it was before when the first Telugu ceremony came. I was Eve.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:52] Wow.

Sirisha Shumway [02:07:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:53] How was that experience for you doing that work for the church?

Sirisha Shumway [02:07:57] I mean it was. I mean as I said, being given the conditions at the time, I thought that is it. That is my life thing. And it was hard as well because. Because that is not something I have done anything like that before. But I really considered like that is something. You know, not everybody gets that. And honestly there are so many people in Telugu speaking members who are really good at it, who are really much more experienced than me.

Sirisha Shumway [02:08:28] I thought they were great. But I was honestly surprised and shocked and. And pleasantly that it was me. And I have given everything. Everything I have done to the church. I have given wholeheartedly. Either a calling or a translation. Again, as I said, it was never for money.

Sirisha Shumway [02:08:48] It was always. I even did general conference after I came back to the States and stuff. But during my mission I was called for the temple thing and it was Eve's voice.

Cultural Suppression and Mixed Mission Memories

John Dehlin [02:08:59] You mentioned on your mission being forbidden from teaching in your native language, being forbidden from wearing Indian style clothes on your mission and being taught that American culture is superior to your cultural heritage. Do you want to talk about that?

Sirisha Shumway [02:09:16] It is kind of, yes. We were not allowed to speak in any of our mother tongue. We have so many languages in every state have their own language. Mine is Telugu. A lot of people speak Hindi, Tamil. But English is the only language that we are allowed to speak. I don't know. The rules must change. It's been while. But I don't know at that time. And we have to wear this American style clothing.

John Dehlin [02:09:41] So dresses for women just like American style dresses. Not Indian style dresses.

Sirisha Shumway [02:09:46] No, no, no. Not Indian style dresses at all. Indian style dresses like what I'm wearing now. It's actually very comfortable. It's actually juice is very good for our culture because getting on buses and sitting on the floors. A lot of times we sit on the floors but we have to wear skirts and tops, sitting on the floor with a skirt and getting on this buses that has tall steps. It would be, you know, very. What do you call.

Sirisha Shumway [02:10:16] Uncomfortable? I would say, I don't know why do they have those rules at that time not being able to do. But I mean we are never to question, right? We are not supposed to. But honestly that was not something any of us. Some people like that because it also gives like attention because not everybody. Two girls wearing skirts and you know, tags and going around at least at that time back in this is about 2003, 2004 I'm talking about. So it gives a kind of attention. I don't know.

Sirisha Shumway [02:10:50] But sometimes it didn't give a good thing. We had some guys making comments that are not so nice or trying to touch us or something. It happened to me personally a couple of times. So yeah, that was thing of the mission to bear.

John Dehlin [02:11:11] And if you had to summarize your overall mission experience, how was it?

Sirisha Shumway [02:11:16] My overall? I would say it was very challenging. It was not easy given the conditions and stuff.

John Dehlin [02:11:26] Did you see a lot of baptisms? Not.

Sirisha Shumway [02:11:28] Yeah, we did. We baptized. Not every week, but we did have a lot of baptisms. And yeah, I don't remember how many people exactly, but I had some. At least we had baptisms once a month or something like that. You know, we did have.

John Dehlin [02:11:47] So at least 10 or 20 people.

Sirisha Shumway [02:11:49] Oh, more, more, more than that. More than 20 people for sure. I used to have all their list of names. I just lost it. And one of the things that

John Dehlin [02:12:00] we

Sirisha Shumway [02:12:00] tell the church tells people like, you know, when you go to some of these people who are struggling already financially again I said a lot of Indian population is, you know, struggling and making. And tell us to ask them to pay tithing. And then in the zone conferences in the missionary training, they said tell them you, you do this and promise, you know, God will bless you and all these things. And I would do that. I would do go to these families and tell them a mother, a single mom who has kids who is already struggling, she's working as a house help in couple of houses to take care of her kids.

Sirisha Shumway [02:12:41] And I tell her give 10% of your thing to the church and the God will promise you. Honestly, I'm embarrassed of some of those things I said at the time. Yeah, you know, I shouldn't, you know, like I was so blind faith. I hope the missionaries or whatever the young people they're doing these days, I hope they think twice before make that kind of things because it's not like your American culture. Like, if you're sick, you go to the hospital and you will get healthcare no matter what. It's not like that in India. You pay money, you get health care. It's very rare in government hospitals.

Sirisha Shumway [02:13:25] Sometimes you get. And for them, for you to say, promise this kind of things to them, I don't know. It was not. Not right.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:35] That's right. It's kind of, you know, not being aware, truly, of what they're asking of people. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:47] Okay. But if I were to have asked you at the end of your mission whether it was a good experience for you, what would you have said?

Sirisha Shumway [02:13:57] I would say it was a good experience. I would. At the time, I would. But now that I'm thinking about the people, of how I brought them and how their lives and how I could have used that time to do my own thing, my own studying, preparing my own life, especially my dad left us, and we didn't have financial sources or something. How I could have used that. I can't believe what my mom would have gone through at that time. Now that I'm thinking as a mother, I can't believe. But it was not something.

John Dehlin [02:14:32] Yeah. You were her only child.

Sirisha Shumway [02:14:33] I was her only child.

John Dehlin [02:14:36] And she had no husband?

Sirisha Shumway [02:14:37] No. No other kid.

John Dehlin [02:14:39] Was it. Was it her mom who died? Your grandma?

Margi Dehlin [02:14:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:42] So her mom died, her husband left her, and then her only child was, from her view, taken by a cult.

Sirisha Shumway [02:14:49] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [02:14:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you regret that you weren't there for your family?

Sirisha Shumway [02:14:55] I. Oh, absolutely. I regret all of that.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:57] This.

Sirisha Shumway [02:14:57] I regret all of this. There's not, you know, sometimes I think that, you know, to just to make myself happy, there is. Has to be some good. There has to be. There is. I did get a community, but I could have got that somewhere else. I could have gone to college and have a community there. Mormonism didn't offer me anything that outside things could offer me. It didn't, you know, I did get some love, but it's not that, you know, like, it's not like I couldn't get anywhere else. Maybe I could have joined other. You know, I don't know. We didn't have a lot of, like, these days there are a lot of, you know, societies, a lot of agencies and all these things. But back in the day, we didn't have. But honestly, I wouldn't do any of this. I seriously regret every single thing. And I. I grieve. I grieve. Losing me.

John Dehlin [02:15:49] Me.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:49] Right.

Sirisha Shumway [02:15:50] Losing me becoming what they want me to be. What they want me to think what they want me to wear everything I grieve. The lost me.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:00] Yeah, that's right. That makes all the sense in the world.

John Dehlin [02:16:08] I can tell you're feeling those emotions again.

Sirisha Shumway [02:16:12] I mean, no one should go through this. No one. There is one thing, you know, the pursuit of happiness. They say everybody, no matter what it is, they should be able to pursue it. If some Mormons, it is working for them that, you know, they wanted to, you know, go do it for you. But why do you have to rub all your things on others? You go to a foreign country, talk to your 14 year old, it is working for you. Yeah, by all means. But you can't do that, that to others. Especially when you're hiding so many, so many things. Especially when you're doing those things. It's not right.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:57] Yeah.

Coming to America and Marriage

John Dehlin [02:16:59] So if it's okay, let's transition now because I'm really curious. It sounds like you end up learning that the Mormon Church wasn't what you thought when you were baptized. Right. When you were converted to the church in India. So maybe let's talk about how you ended up. Oh, I was going to say, and it sounds like it took you coming to the United States to learn that the church wasn't what you thought.

Sirisha Shumway [02:17:24] I mean, I learned that after marrying my husband back in 2000. I married him in 2011.

John Dehlin [02:17:30] Well, let's get there. So how do you go from being a missionary in India to coming to the United States? Let's talk about that.

Sirisha Shumway [02:17:37] Okay,

John Dehlin [02:17:41] so anything else that's important in your story? You know.

Sirisha Shumway [02:17:45] Okay, so after I came back from a mission, I found a job in Hyderabad and I was working for a call center in India for a multinational company. And then I was also for my mom, doing an MBA is very important for her. That is one thing I promised her before I went on my mission, that I'm coming back and, and I'm going to finish that. And I did, I did my mba.

John Dehlin [02:18:12] Does she forgive you for going on a mission or no?

Sirisha Shumway [02:18:14] No, that is not something, any of these things I could forgive, but she could forgive me. And then I actually started trying really hard to. Get her baptized. Yeah, I, I mean she was in, honestly, she was in a very difficult situation. I mean, as you mentioned, she didn't have a husband. Her mother is gone now, her daughter. So I found a job in Hyderabad. I took a small, teeny little room for rent with my salary that I get.

Sirisha Shumway [02:18:52] And I asked my mom, you know, to come live with me because she's been Living with her brothers and stuff like that, because she didn't have a place of course her own and she was living. And she would go to church with me. But every time I tell her about baptism, she's like, at that point of time it's too late. I'm in my, like, you know, mid-20s and served my mission. She knows the church is part of my life. She started to accept it, even if she likes it or not. So.

Sirisha Shumway [02:19:21] And she. I was asking her to baptize many times she didn't. I came to the US in 2009, December to do my master's in information systems.

John Dehlin [02:19:33] Was that hard to get accepted or easy to get accepted?

Sirisha Shumway [02:19:35] It is hard to come to the U.S. let's say that not just to get accepted, but even to get a visa you have to show a lot of money because they don't want you to stuck here or something like that. So I have to show the family.

Sirisha Shumway [02:19:51] We used to have a land in India. My mother, when she was working all the money she had saved. So my mom has been. Although she struggled a lot, but she ensured that always got the best education. And when I told her that I want to come to the States, she has made sacrifices and everything. And the money she was saving for my wedding and in India I have to give dowry. Although it is not thing that everybody that government opposes, but people still do it. And I told her, she instead of that, you know, I asked her to give some of that money for my education. And I came to the US in 2009 December to Utah State University.

John Dehlin [02:20:36] And why. Why not BYU? Why Utah State? I mean, go Aggies.

Sirisha Shumway [02:20:43] I mean, it's like more like I have friends in. My mom is very protective of me like. Like how. And especially going to different countries. So I have very good friend in Logan. Logan who my mom really trusts and knows a church member. He is. And I consider him my own brother again. So he was there. So it was. For me, it's like a kind of safety kind of thing, you know, in my family, I think they were very protected. They didn't want to send the kids too far unless you had married someone and then go with the husband, but alone. So for me that was things. So I came to Utah State and loved it there.

John Dehlin [02:21:24] So you moved to Logan in 2009 to get a master's in information systems.

Sirisha Shumway [02:21:31] I already have an MBA from India and I wanted to. Honestly, it was like for me trying to escape something because even in the church it was getting difficult. As soon as I came Back from my mission. The pressure to get married was intense from the members. It was like, they're not just encouraging you to get married. They're not even doing that. They're insulting you, putting you down, you know, saying stuff like in this. I don't know where this quote came in the world out of it. They were like, if you are not married within six months of your mission, you are a nuisance to the society. I was told that to my face almost on every Sunday basis.

John Dehlin [02:22:13] Oh, my goodness.

Sirisha Shumway [02:22:14] It was in India. In India, In India. In India. The obsession. The obsession over certain people in the place, the church I went through. It's like, you can achieve anything. You can be the President of the United States or anything. If you're not married, you have no value kind of thing. And how that pressure.

Sirisha Shumway [02:22:36] And they were bringing some of the guys that. And by then, I already have my master's in business administration, and they were getting guys. I'm not like someone. But in my side of the family, my cousins, they were highly educated. They were engineers, and they were married to other engineers. A doctor married another doctor. And, you know, I was expecting someone, you know, reasonably.

Sirisha Shumway [02:23:02] They don't have to be super. But it's just, you know, it was really hard, and I just didn't. And my mom wanted me to marry somebody highly educated, with her obsession with education. And she has sacrificed a lot for her family, too, to get her brothers. My mom is 85 now. She got married very late because when her father died, she took all the family responsibility, ensured her brothers, sisters, they all get good education.

Sirisha Shumway [02:23:31] So she has always been there. And she herself wanted to become a doctor. But the circumstances and the poverty at that time, it didn't let her. So she wanted me to get education. She wanted my husband to have that kind of thing. Anyway, so I ended up marrying a doctor. I mean, he wasn't a doctor at the time, but anyways, so 2009, I came to Logan, and again, this thing about church and all end up and.

John Dehlin [02:23:59] Oh, and you were escaping the pressure

Sirisha Shumway [02:24:01] to get in India.

John Dehlin [02:24:04] Yeah, well, come to Utah to escape the pressure to get married.

Sirisha Shumway [02:24:09] Can you believe that? Can you believe. What was I thinking? I was like, I will be near the temple. I will just, you know, I will get my master's. I just need a break from all

John Dehlin [02:24:20] these people, all this pressure to get married.

Sirisha Shumway [02:24:23] The pressure to get married and hear the bishops, their life goal is to see you get married. That's what they were doing. I'm like, what did I fall into? You Know, so I honestly had really a good time, you know, like I was doing volunteering at the temple on a weekly basis, attending temple like crazy. I'm always there. I'm always there. They would have to. Sister, can you please go? We are closing the temple. Please come back tomorrow. They have been very nice. You know, I was like, you know, enjoying my time with school. And I was also doing general conference after I came here.

Sirisha Shumway [02:25:05] General conference at that time when I was doing was voluntary work. So I was translating the conference talks and I would do voiceover and it was like Mormon haven. Living in Logan, Utah, doing all the callings among all the members.

Sirisha Shumway [02:25:27] People would invite me to speak in the different. You know, when people heard about me, I spoke in. There is this meeting called Religion in Life. They have the institute in Logan where a lot of members would come and they invite guests. And I. I was speaking there and I spoke about my experiences at the time. And I was, yeah, they would invite me. I even went to Idaho, some of these places to speak at the time. You know, they would call all these young men and young women, look at her and all these things. And I felt so special, so valued and was. I was having really good time. And then wait.

John Dehlin [02:26:06] And I just have to note, you know, just. Just 10 minutes ago you talked about how you regretted all of it.

Sirisha Shumway [02:26:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:12] And I just want to note the paradox of. On the one hand, you regret all of it and I believe you. On the other hand, isn't it almost every Indian young man or young girl's dreams to end up in graduate school at a US university? So you're living a dream because of your relationship to the church. One would argue or one would.

Sirisha Shumway [02:26:41] Okay, I would defer. The reason I would say that because I didn't come to the church. I didn't go to the Utah State University because of church or anything, you know. Yeah, I was escaping or something. But had I stayed back with our church in India instead of coming in 2009, I would have come right after my undergrad degree. I would have saved all these years, you know, I would have still come if I wanted to, you know, because the church, none of the church members had helped me anywhere financially or anything at all. It was all my mom and my hard work coming here.

Sirisha Shumway [02:27:22] So I would have come if I wanted to, even without that. In fact, you know, I got a marriage proposal right when I was doing my undergrad. I don't remember if I finished it yet at that time. I don't remember. But this person who went To IIT IIT is Indian Institute of Technology. It's like MIT of us for technology.

Sirisha Shumway [02:27:47] One of the family members, if you know, he was a graduate from there and I got a marriage proposal from the. Again, as I said, my family arranged marriages. They do that. So they arranged marriage with this person.

Sirisha Shumway [02:28:03] And I just couldn't because I want to marry a member. So take this equation out. I would have achieved these goals in a much higher level much earlier.

John Dehlin [02:28:14] Oh, that's right.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:17] I love that so much because I think there's this tendency and part of this. This is the conditioning of the church too, is like the church saying, we're what make you special.

Sirisha Shumway [02:28:29] Yeah, we're what.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:30] And so I love your pushback in saying it was I had the will. I was the one who was committed to my. And I would have had that regardless. What I had instead was this whole era of like kind of erasing myself and giving all my resources, all my time, all my energy to the church and kind of having it take away from. And that's just a really. That's an important part, I think, of deconstruction is being able to actually see the parts of us that were always us, but that the church kind of took credit for or. Right. Kind of said they gave it to us. They're the ones that made that thing. And in fact, it was you all along.

Sirisha Shumway [02:29:23] Yeah. I have people tell me, I'm glad you asked that question because there are a lot of Mormons. Somehow they think that I had some kind of help from members or now that you came to because of the church. Because of the church you got. I want to tell one thing. Looking right into their face. Your church has only taken things from me. T A K E N Taken.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:45] Yes.

Sirisha Shumway [02:29:46] I have only given G I V E N. I don't know how else I could make financially. Everywhere I give. You guys owe me a lot. Just more than money. People say that about me. And like some people try to start rumors. You know, when you start question, they don't like it. So they have to character assassinate you. Right. So they say stuff like, oh, maybe that president helped her go. People turned to my face, I was like, which president? Can you ask them who came? It was all my mom. After all the things I have done, my mom has sent me here with her hard work. Being a single mom.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:22] Right.

Sirisha Shumway [02:30:22] She has done that for me.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:24] Right.

Sirisha Shumway [02:30:24] Anything I owe my education, my mom.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:27] That's right. And the sacrifice to her was that, you know, she might have been a doctor, she might have chosen to do things in her life, but ended up. Yes, yes.

Sirisha Shumway [02:30:38] Not even my dad. My mom.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:39] Mom.

Sirisha Shumway [02:30:39] 100%.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:40] Wow. Yep.

Sirisha Shumway [02:30:42] I just want to clear this. Very clear. And you know, I would have achieved way better in life. I would have had more money at that time because I could have focused on my education. Think of my. I would have become a doctor. My uncle wanted me to. They put it in that path. I would have been a. Had a successful career, way more financially independent. I lost way too much because of this.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:08] We hear that.

John Dehlin [02:31:10] So you feel like the church exploited you.

Sirisha Shumway [02:31:12] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:31:13] To its own benefit.

Sirisha Shumway [02:31:14] Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:16] Yeah, I hear that all the way.

Sirisha Shumway [02:31:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:21] Okay.

Sirisha Shumway [02:31:22] No doubt about it. I mean, I think they also know, but then they give a different word to it. But you're right.

John Dehlin [02:31:27] Okay. Okay. So you're here in Logan believing that you're living. Living the dream. That's the weird thing you're telling us. On the one hand, the church 100% exploited you. On the other hand, by 2009, 2010, you feel like you've reached the highest state you could ever live in your life. Working for the church in Utah. Right?

Sirisha Shumway [02:31:51] I'm not working for the church in Utah. I was going to school in Utah State University, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:31:57] I mean, the translating and that kind of thing.

Sirisha Shumway [02:31:59] I stopped translating at that time. I stopped doing. I was volunteering. So all my translation work was volunteer. Because general conference at that time was all volunteer.

John Dehlin [02:32:09] Okay. I just mean working with the church.

Sirisha Shumway [02:32:10] With the church.

John Dehlin [02:32:11] It felt.

Sirisha Shumway [02:32:12] Yeah. Because I didn't want the people to think, oh, she's still getting money. Because, you know, I know how they try to take piece everything apart and stuff. But it is all mine going to school. I was working as a graduate assistant in the university to help pay for my college and working for my professors and stuff. Utah State University took good care of me, gave me jobs on campus. You know, I was able to. Yeah, they were very, very good. I had a good education and good experiences and exposure there. Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:46] It's good to know.

Sirisha Shumway [02:32:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:48] Okay. So. Yeah. How did you end up getting married or what came next?

Sirisha Shumway [02:32:54] Yeah, I mean, the thing is, the pressure to get married is really high because I was going to be close to my 30s. I was 29 and I met a mutual friend of mine, has introduced me to my now husband, Brandon.

Sirisha Shumway [02:33:11] At the time, he was Spanish. He was doing undergrad in Spanish and he's about seven years younger than me. And it was like just a date. And I used to be so scared of dates and stuff. I didn't Want her to go.

Sirisha Shumway [02:33:25] But she was like, you know, you're not going to marry him. Just one date in the evening because it's a church activity again. It's in the church. So we all went to church and I met him and he was a seventh generation Mormon. I was so fascinated. I was like, oh my goodness. Shamway family there starts at the Joseph Smith time. Their connection with the church and stuff. And we fell in love real quick. And, you know, he came up from his mission and stuff, finished in Nebraska. A lot of people think that again, he served his mission in India. That's how married. They tried to do all those things.

Sirisha Shumway [02:34:06] He didn't serve his mission in India. He didn't come. He went to Nebraska mission. He's Spanish speaking. So yeah, it was, you know, he was a worthy priesthood holder. And, you know, we fell in love quickly. He came to India to do some of the service projects for the people in the slums and stuff. You know, he was there building the toilets and stuff, bore wells and stuff.

John Dehlin [02:34:33] Before he met you?

Sirisha Shumway [02:34:35] Not before, after I met. We went together with him. We went together with an organization that does all these things with a group of people.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:45] Yep.

Arranged Marriage, Family Pressure, and the Church

John Dehlin [02:34:45] So really quickly here. India's known for arranged marriages. And so I'm trying to understand. We've already talked about the trauma your family went through in India with you baptizing into the Mormon church and then serving a mission in the Mormon church. What was it like for your family, number one, to not have you enter into an arranged marriage and then to add possibly insult to injury, to have you marrying a white Mormon American, you know, on another. In another country, basically.

Sirisha Shumway [02:35:20] Honestly, my family relationship has broken with my mission itself.

John Dehlin [02:35:25] Okay.

Sirisha Shumway [02:35:26] They didn't really care after that about me. Oh, much.

John Dehlin [02:35:29] Wow.

Sirisha Shumway [02:35:29] It's. We didn't have like, that break was really hard. And. And to top that, I didn't even go home for my grandma's funeral when my uncle himself called me.

John Dehlin [02:35:40] So that really just destroyed your family relationship.

Sirisha Shumway [02:35:43] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:35:44] It destroyed your family.

Sirisha Shumway [02:35:45] He was not joking when he said that. It was not like trying to. It's not. He meant it.

John Dehlin [02:35:51] Oh, wow.

Sirisha Shumway [02:35:52] And I meant it.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:53] That's right. And even I noticed when you were talking about your mom when you got back from your mission and you went and got the MBA that you said something to the effect of like, oh, no, my mom would not forgive me for that. You know, inferring that that decision, it permanently changed kind of your family dynamic.

Sirisha Shumway [02:36:19] Absolutely. Because here you are, you know, you know, your parents are against it. And you still did it. And I told my uncle to his face that this is more important to me than you.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:32] Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [02:36:33] And I was ready to break it up. He said, like, we are dead to you if you go. And I said, okay, yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:40] Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [02:36:40] And I looked at it as, you know, God providing her way to Nephi. I looked at it that way. I didn't look what I was doing, looking bad at it. I. I'm not proud of. I mean, at that time, I didn't know anything better, but I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have broken my family's trust or something. Doing wrong things for right reason was a Nephi. Killing Laban for plates. Yeah, killing was bad, but getting plates, you know, what wouldn't have done, you know, like that. So for me, I justified some of these things. You know, getting signature from my dad or not telling my mom until the last minute and then going off on my mission. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:29] What do you feel?

Sirisha Shumway [02:37:34] I don't know how, how they manipulate those things to your thing that you're thinking that doing these things is right. I should. Any sense should have been there for my mom right after my undergrad. I should have gone for grad school, got a job, supported her, but instead, mission and. Oh, my God.

John Dehlin [02:38:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [02:38:04] And I met my husband and, you know, we got married in Logan Temple, August 2011.

John Dehlin [02:38:12] Were you excited about that?

Sirisha Shumway [02:38:15] Honestly, I was excited because that is what I'm supposed to do based on the church, based on everything I did, you know, like going on mission. These are not things I would do. Like, you know, not having a career, not having an, you know, like a high, you know, position or something.

Sirisha Shumway [02:38:35] This is not. But I did it just because. To fit in that honestly, marriage was something. It was not because of my parents or what I have gone through, but for me, I love my husband. You know, he's a great man. I'm not denying that. But marriage, the dynamics, it doesn't sit well. But then I don't want to be servant to the people who are married right in the heavens, in heaven, forever being a servant. That's what I was told, that I will be literally a servant to the people ministering angels. You are basically a servant. So I'm like, okay, no, no, no, I'm not going to be a servant. Nope.

John Dehlin [02:39:12] So that doctrine that Mormon theology caused you to make a very dramatic decision that you might otherwise not have made.

Sirisha Shumway [02:39:21] Yeah, my husband gave me permission to talk about, but I really don't think it's my place to. But Honestly, he was also in a position. He would have made a different choice if he was not a Mormon. He would have totally made a different choice.

John Dehlin [02:39:39] He might not have gotten married as early either. Or at all.

Sirisha Shumway [02:39:43] Not just marrying early or something. But I don't. I mean, he said, I can talk, but I don't know if I should. But he wouldn't be marrying me.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:54] Yeah, yeah. And I think this comes up quite a bit like as we do this work with Mormon stories, is this idea of, I mean, one way to say it is a cult personality. If you're uncomfortable with that term, we could say a conditioned personality. Stephen Hassan is the one who has done a lot of work on high demand religions. And this idea of actually a separate self is created within high demand religions.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:31] Right. In these conditioned places where your desires are no longer your own, your personality is no longer your own. It is literally like it creates you in the way that best serves it right. And that's what I hear kind of you saying at this point is that like. Right. That you recognize it looking back. But what you really. What really happened is you had a separate self emerge that acted in this way. And I think it's a really tough. This is the rub in people's stories is when they come out of it, but then they're living the decisions that they made while in it. Right. Where they kind of feel like, but I wasn't myself. I wasn't actually. Does that make sense? Does that feel right to you?

Sirisha Shumway [02:41:20] Does that feel. And he didn't have opportunity to explore his own thing. He couldn't be out and accept his true identity. You know, he has to fit in that norm. Coming from a very strong Mormon family, he is expected to do certain things. He did all those things, although some of them he didn't agree to or something. And we both, you know, put in this place.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:43] Got it.

Sirisha Shumway [02:41:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:45] And I don't mean to go back to this, but I had to ask you, did any of your family attend your wedding?

Sirisha Shumway [02:41:52] My wedding was in Utah, so my engagement was in India. There's a couple of family members that came. None of my uncles and none of the people that truly mattered to me didn't come. Distant. Not your mom? My mom was there. My mom, yeah, she was there. She was living with me because here, not in US at that time, she was living in Hyderabad alone. When I came to US she was living alone in Hyderabad. She has some family things going on, so she didn't want to go back. So she was living alone all by herself. So My mom was there and a few family members, like distant cousins.

John Dehlin [02:42:30] And you were married in India?

Sirisha Shumway [02:42:32] I had engagement. We have. In India we have this pre wedding engagement. I don't think us have it. It's like a big party. Everybody will be there, all the family. India is a marriage is a big deal in India. It's a topic of another thing, but it's a big tale. So some of few, like my distant cousins were there, but none of the people who really were close from the family, none of them were there.

John Dehlin [02:43:01] Okay.

Sirisha Shumway [02:43:03] And I got married in Utah, so my mom wasn't even there.

John Dehlin [02:43:06] So you probably didn't really have any, Anyone here when you got married?

Sirisha Shumway [02:43:09] No, no, nobody was there. Not even my mom. Nobody. I mean, what's the point? Because they can't come into the temple anyways or you know, they didn't have.

John Dehlin [02:43:19] They can't because the Mormon church excludes non members from the wedding if it's a temple wedding.

Sirisha Shumway [02:43:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't go, right?

John Dehlin [02:43:26] Yeah. Wow.

Sirisha Shumway [02:43:27] My mom was member at the time, but she didn't have temple recommend. She got baptized in 2010.

John Dehlin [02:43:32] Whoa, your mom got baptized?

Sirisha Shumway [02:43:34] Yeah, she had. Okay, I'm going everywhere. Yeah. Again, again. She. It was in a vulnerable state.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:40] She.

Sirisha Shumway [02:43:41] I got a call, I was in Utah state. I got a call saying she had to have open heart heart surgery. She's going through that and somehow like this thing came into her mind. If she gets baptized, the surgery will be success. Something like that. She hardly knows anything about the church doctrine or anything. She didn't even understand Book of Mormon. She didn't even even read it. She likes Bible. But for me, I was like, it doesn't matter as long as she is baptized. For me, that was, I thought, you know, once she, you know, she didn't even get through some of her interviews because they were like, she didn't understand all those things.

Sirisha Shumway [02:44:18] But the, you know, they got approved and approved her to baptize, so. So she got baptized. I think she started, I don't know if belief really started with her, but she started going to church and now, now she goes every Sunday. She is very devoted. She gives, pays her tithing. She's like, you know, now she's like, it's so funny. The plates have switched now.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:44] That's so true. Like, what a curveball.

Sirisha Shumway [02:44:47] It's switched now. Now I don't go. But my mom, she goes, yeah, she goes. Now I think, honestly, I think for her, the. I asked her, like when I left the church, you know, I just Want to let you know that this is what it is. I know I have pursued you for years, and then you got baptized. But I told her, she's like, I don't even know what you're talking about. I have good friends there.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:15] A little selective memory going on.

Sirisha Shumway [02:45:18] She was like, she has no clue of what's going on. And she knows some stuff. She knows about some. Some stories, but she has no clue about those things. She has a very good friends, very good community. And she's lonely. My mom, she likes to be around with people. Especially being away from her family and stuff was hard. So for her, again, it's the same thing story repeated with me. She got a community, right?

Margi Dehlin [02:45:45] And I think in this case, time of life, where she is in her life maybe, you know, matter a little bit. And what I hear from you kind of in your story is kind of this idea of what it cost you. And it is possible that it can cost her less or what is being asked of her to have community or to have these may be much less than what was. And I think that's a really important question to ask if we're gonna talk about what it gives you. It's what it also costs you to get those things right.

Sirisha Shumway [02:46:26] My mom, she didn't lose much at all. Nothing. She hasn't. For her, she joined back when she's like, I think 70s age. For her, it's more like a community. The social aspect. She loves to talk, so they gave her opportunity to talk in the church. She says, they give me sleep, saying time is over. I just ignore and keep talking, you know, so she. She gets that platform to talk. So she's there.

John Dehlin [02:46:53] So I have to ask, are you glad she has the church?

Sirisha Shumway [02:46:57] The thing is, you know what if it is working for her again, I'm not saying Mormonism is bad for everybody. Some people, it works for them. Maybe they need it. That thing. They don't. Probably. Some of the things that concern me, that made me out for them when I talk, that's a big deal. For my mom, it's just a community. It could be anything.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:20] Got it.

Sirisha Shumway [02:47:21] She's not going for teaching. She doesn't have a burning testimony of Joseph Smith, none of those. She doesn't read even Book of Mormon. But for her, it's the social support. Social support. And they are good to my mom. I have to agree to that. They have some members, a couple of members who are very close to me. Even now. They. They take good care of my mom, you know, so she's alone and yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:48] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:47:49] Wow. What a curve ball.

Sirisha Shumway [02:47:51] It is, it is, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:52] Okay.

Sirisha Shumway [02:47:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:53] Well, it's lovely that it's working for her. It's lovely that, you know, as opposed to it being sort of again, one of those high cost scenarios.

Sirisha Shumway [02:48:04] Yeah, yeah. Again it is not costing her at all for her, it's just she goes if she wants to. She also goes to other churches. She's just not normal. You know, when I go to Hyderabad, she gets calls from Jesus calls church, she gets from St. John's Church. She goes to all of them. For her at this age, she just need a community. She just want to sit and listen to someone speak and she goes. She's not just like, not like Mormon church. All the churches in that neighborhood, she covers all of them.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:33] Yeah, that's great.

Beginning to Question Church Truth Claims

John Dehlin [02:48:35] Okay, so I'm dying to know what in your story leads you to start questioning the church.

Sirisha Shumway [02:48:42] Okay, so we are happily married in the temple and we had kid right after that. Our first child was born in Utah, Logan, Utah, 2012. And my husband started going to med school in 2013 back in Washington D.C.

Sirisha Shumway [02:49:02] in a military medical school. And all these years, very devout Mormons. Did everything as a family, had a plan life together, like finish his medical thing, everything and then go on missions, everything, you know. And then we moved to my husband, we moved to Loma Linda, California to do his residency in the Adventist hospital.

Sirisha Shumway [02:49:26] I don't know what really started his journey exactly. He was the first person to actually question these things. He was the one who was reading like crazy. He was getting obsessed over church history. He is first of all bookworm. He loves to read on the top of it. He just started to going and digging all these things and telling me, do you know this didn't really didn't happen. And he started me telling stuff and I'm like, you know what? And at the end I have only one thing to say. Whatever it is, I know the church is true. I know you have been doing these things, but I hope you can come back, you can do all those things you want.

Sirisha Shumway [02:50:05] I'm not going to stop you because I know this is true and truth will always, you know, I would say things like that and he would, you know, and one day finally he said,

John Dehlin [02:50:16] do you remember any of the things he would bring to you? Questions?

Sirisha Shumway [02:50:18] Oh my goodness, everything.

John Dehlin [02:50:20] Just three to five, just so people have a sense.

Sirisha Shumway [02:50:22] Oh, he would say stuff like, like do you know like alcohol thing. You know, that's a big deal for me, right? Yeah, that was a big deal for

John Dehlin [02:50:30] Me that he was courageous and didn't

Sirisha Shumway [02:50:32] go through a thing. And he said, do you know there was a bar in his Nauvoo mansion. He was drinking alcohol. I'm like, oh, is that what the anti Mormon literature told you? Because that's what they tell you, right? Everything. Anything anti Mormon literature. Right. He said, no. And my husband, he's very like, he has very like. He just doesn't believe anything just because someone said he does his own research. You talk about medicine or anything. He is goes for factual. It's very detailed. So someone like them for me to. For him to say that. I was like, nah, he's just like, I don't know what he's talking to something. So one of the biggest thing was that for me about alcohol. I'm not like, I didn't believe it for a long time. And he said he was drinking alcohol even through his adult life. I was like, no way, no way he's drinking alcohol.

John Dehlin [02:51:23] The night before he was killed. He drank alcohol even then.

Sirisha Shumway [02:51:25] Yeah, yeah, he said that. Do you know the night before he was killed, he was doing that. I was like, no, he did it. And also I was like, you know how the church portrays that he was there and the mob came and shot him. But in fact, you know, he actually had someone to come rescue him. And when the jailer was telling, the mob is coming, Joseph Smith was actually telling, yeah, they're coming to rescue me, thinking they are the people that he arranged but ended up different. That was all like, for me even that if he could deny it and he could escape all these things. That's what members told me. Right. But he didn't deny he was true to his religion. But for me, he was trying to make his own escape.

John Dehlin [02:52:09] He had a gun.

Sirisha Shumway [02:52:10] Right.

John Dehlin [02:52:10] And he fired the crowd. Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [02:52:12] I don't know that growing up, that is not what the church showed you any of the movies. They even showed him, I'm going as a lamb to the slaughter, knowing that I will be killed. You know, he was going on the horse, looking at people, and I'm like sobbing over here, oh, my God. Oh, my God. You know, like, I can't, I can't anymore. And then my husband coming and telling me, you know, that's all I was like, he has a gun. I'm like, no, he didn't. So. But he was in a roller coaster. I was in a roller coaster. He was seventh generation Mormon. I was like, stronger than all his generations put together.

John Dehlin [02:52:48] I mean, this part of the interview is really important because it touches on what information you weren't told or what untrue things you were told that maybe if you had been told, you would not have joined. So are there any other really big things that you were not told or wish you had been told?

Sirisha Shumway [02:53:09] One thing, one story. I mean, there are so many. And people can read that Internet. I don't have to put time to read that one story about Lucy Walker. Okay, that story.

John Dehlin [02:53:22] Who's that?

Sirisha Shumway [02:53:22] Lucy Walker is a girl, like, you know, her father, they come from England, and her mom dies of typhoid or some disease. And then Joseph Smith calls her father and says, go on mission. And he's like, I have a young daughter. How can I do that? He's like, I will take care of her, like, as my own daughter. You know, go on mission. And as soon as the father leaves and he's telling her, you need to marry me, he gives her pressure, timeline, and he tells her, the windows of heaven will be closed, you know, if you don't like all this. And then she finally tells, you know, she says in her own journal, like, you know, I'm putting my. My happiness on the altar.

John Dehlin [02:54:03] Like, my mind as, like, a teenage girl with Joseph the prophet pressuring her to marry him.

Sirisha Shumway [02:54:09] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:10] That feels. What. What's wrong with that?

Sirisha Shumway [02:54:16] I don't know English enough. Well, it's not just wrong, it's. I don't know what to say it.

John Dehlin [02:54:20] Abusive.

Sirisha Shumway [02:54:21] It is, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:22] Predatory, manipulative.

Sirisha Shumway [02:54:24] It is evil. How can you say to a father, I'll take care of your daughter. And then you go and force this. Like, what are you. Forget about everything else. That itself. I would never have baptized you as a woman.

Sirisha Shumway [02:54:41] These are the things. When my husband told me I had really hard time. I was thinking, somebody made up these stories. There is no way these are true. When my husband was telling. He's telling all these kinds of stories, like how, you know, the discrepancy between this thing. How. How. Book of Mormon, you know, the most current book on this earth has so many revisions, so many. Not just grammatical, even, like, you know, everything else. And I was like.

Sirisha Shumway [02:55:08] It was so much for him. It was so much for me. Finally, one day, my husband comes and says, I can't do this anymore. I'm not going. And I was like. I was almost kind of forcing him to come back. And I was like, why can't you come this Sunday, bear your testimony? And then you decide, what do you.

Sirisha Shumway [02:55:29] I made him. I remember we were in Redlands. I remember him. I asked just Go, just go, just go. I pushed and I thought, he will say the church is true, the traditional testimony. No, he was talking about how he's having questions about these things and he was all these things and I was kind of embarrassed. I'm like, what? Because they say when you bear testimony, your testimony will be strengthened. That's what I was thinking. But he didn't even do that enough. And he came and I was trying to make this work. I just can't lose him to the, you know, whatever.

John Dehlin [02:56:05] So, I mean, you had sacrificed literally everything.

Sirisha Shumway [02:56:08] Everything.

John Dehlin [02:56:09] Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [02:56:09] How can this could be this wrong? You know, So I wasn't. So what I started doing, I started.

John Dehlin [02:56:15] Plus, you got your worthy priesthood holder.

Sirisha Shumway [02:56:17] My worthy priesthood holder who might. There is no way he's the one who's going to know my name, knock the temple, bring me into the heaven. What if this guy is gone? Who is going to. There's another really crazy thing to really think about that you have to have a husband to go to the heaven and he's going to open the door, he's going to let you in. I was like, oh, my goodness, I just can't.

John Dehlin [02:56:39] He was your ticket to not being a ministering angel. And then by falling away, even marrying a righteous Mormon priesthood holder, you weren't saved from your fate of being an eternal foot servant.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:53] Yeah, yeah. You could be knocking with no one answering.

Sirisha Shumway [02:56:56] Nobody answering. Who's letting me in?

Margi Dehlin [02:56:58] Nobody. Right.

Sirisha Shumway [02:57:00] So.

John Dehlin [02:57:00] Because a woman without a man in heaven, in Mormon heaven.

Sirisha Shumway [02:57:03] No, no, the door does not open. The door does not open. So there he is, going off. So up until then, I was a little relaxed thinking, this is so true. There is no way he could leave. He has such a strong testimony, his family and everything, all this. It can. But then I really started to get fear when he started to get serious and saying, I'm not doing this anymore. Then I jumped into the picture. Then I started doing research and trying to prove everything he's saying is wrong. My thing is that.

Sirisha Shumway [02:57:36] And I have. I really don't want to go to that thing. But I. Every time, every time when I'm trying to take, oh, he's wrong about this. I need to show him this is it. And when I find out he's not wrong, it killed a part of me, okay? It killed a part of me. Like, I'm here to talk about my own thing and here I am 24, 25 years later.

Sirisha Shumway [02:58:18] Every time I learn this thing, it just killed part of me. And I'm trying to make sense out of it. I'm trying to talk to people and when they say. When the church says people fall when they don't read the scriptures, they don't go to the. They don't go to the temple. They don't go to the church.

Sirisha Shumway [02:58:36] I was going all this time to the temple regularly, to the church regularly, reading my scriptures regularly, doing my prayers regularly. All the things I was doing, any Mormon would be doing while going this thing. And every time I'm finding it just. It just killed part of me just killed trying to make sense of it. Trying to do mental gymnastics. Right? You want to do the. You are so sure about certain things. The church, you know, oh, this is only true. There's nothing can be more true than this. And then when it comes to things like that, the answer is God works in mysterious ways.

Sirisha Shumway [02:59:14] You just have to have faith for some reason when it comes to that. Then, you know, all these things would come. I was talking to people, I wasn't. People say that, oh, she must be talking to ex Mormons. No, no, I didn't.

Sirisha Shumway [02:59:31] I didn't meet any of the exmoor. I was talking to church members. I was talking to the temple president. The temple president was coming to my house almost on a weekly basis, him and his wife, to talk to us about these things. And I would talk to members. You know, I would. But Lucy Walker or other women. And the women would say, well, at least it is not me.

Sirisha Shumway [02:59:51] And I'm like, so it was okay to happening to women in 1800. They were like, I mean, God didn't ask me to do it. I'm fine with it. For me, it was not for me. It's not which generation, which culture she is from, what color skin she has. It's a woman, Lucy. She left her family to come with you and what you do to her, what the heartbreak she has gone through among all the miscarriages she has.

Sirisha Shumway [03:00:25] I used to have little doubt about Lucy Maxim when I was a member. Like, doubt in the sense. I used to think, she has seen the prophet so close. How can she, you know, drifted off at the end after his death, you know, Howard. But sorry, Emma Smith. I'm getting.

John Dehlin [03:00:42] No, it's good. So how could Emma have his wife?

Sirisha Shumway [03:00:45] His wife is Emma.

John Dehlin [03:00:46] Right.

Sirisha Shumway [03:00:47] Okay. I think it's a good thing that I'm detaching. And also sometimes I'm just mixing up names. I'm forgetting a lot of things.

John Dehlin [03:00:54] It's a sign of growth.

Sirisha Shumway [03:00:55] It's a sign of growth and I'm proud of this. And this is what I've been wanting to. That's a good thing anyways. But my respect for Emma has increased after leaving the church.

John Dehlin [03:01:05] Honestly, why?

Sirisha Shumway [03:01:07] Because of what this woman had gone through. I just can't. I just can't. I wish. I wish if there is a heaven, if we can still meet, if there is a thing as such, I would probably first go and hug her and say, oh, my God, I'm so sorry what you have gone through with this man. You don't deserve this.

Sirisha Shumway [03:01:32] My respect for her increased dramatically after leaving the church. So I. And then even after knowing all these things happened, and then I said, okay, there's no wonder my husband does. And my husband is not someone who listens to anybody. He has his own thing. And I saw one of the biggest things I have to really tell emphasize on this is a member's reaction to our faith thing.

Sirisha Shumway [03:01:59] How these people who know us 20, 25 years called as your own family. Like, I can count on. Suddenly they started to say mean things. You know, when I was talking to one of the lady that I really know, trust her, and like my own sister, she's like, oh, since Brandon, he's now a doctor. That's what he's thinking, that he left

John Dehlin [03:02:23] because he got educated.

Sirisha Shumway [03:02:25] Yeah, he left because he became a doctor. He's prideful now. And I'm like, no, not just because he's a doctor, you know? And then there was a couple missionaries who came to visit me, and I was talking to them, whom I love very dearly, and I said, do you know these things that are happening? How do you deal with this and all these things? And one thing she said, they like to shut you down first. They don't like to talk about it. She says, sirisha, if I'm duped, I like to stay duped. These are her exact words. Exact words. If I am duped, duped, I want to stay duped.

John Dehlin [03:03:00] Wow.

Sirisha Shumway [03:03:02] At that time, I couldn't say anything. And now I could ask her, why are you duping others? Now, at least, why are you duping others? You want to stay duped, stay duped. What right? You have to go to some foreign country, talk to people. And most of the people don't. They think that they have informed consent. They're doing all these things. Not. I wouldn't join this church. Like, oh,

John Dehlin [03:03:29] okay. Can I ask you about that? Because I. So let me tell you about a conversation I've had either literally and theoretically, I've had both. If I were to talk to a Mormon believer, and say Mormon missionaries are deceptive and unethical. When they go to a country like India and they don't tell the full church history because they're not conforming with the rules and the ethics of informed consent, they'll say to me, no, no, no, the gospel's about Jesus and the gospel's about love and the gospel's about salvation and repentance. And like, if we tell, you know, 14 year old Sirisha Joseph Smith was a polygamist, had 40 women married 14 year olds, you know, the book of Abraham is a false translation and the Book of Mormon isn't historical.

John Dehlin [03:04:29] And you know, the Kirtland bank scandal, nobody, no organization is ever going to lead with its darkest moments or its history. It's going to focus on what's most important. And honestly, it's gonna focus on the positive stuff. And then once they join, once they have the spirit, once they have more experience, then they can learn that stuff. But it's unreasonable to expect a missionary to tell all the dark, terrible secrets of the Mormon Church, especially because the church is ultimately about Jesus. Now you're smiling, but what would you say?

Sirisha Shumway [03:05:11] I can't tell you how right you are on that. I'm like, I'm like seeing myself. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:05:18] What would your response be to that? Now as a convert from India.

Sirisha Shumway [03:05:22] Oh my goodness. If people are saying that Mormon missionaries are not deceptive, oh my God. I don't know what to tell you. There is no evidence. I'll tell you one example. Right before my mission, little bit before my mission, there were senior couples who are from, I don't want to say the place anyways, so there were some senior couple missionaries.

Sirisha Shumway [03:05:48] They definitely know everything. Church history. I would. Right. I met somebody. I was staying in a hostel at that time and I met somebody and it was my life's mission to convert everyone to Mormonism at that time. So I was just talking to this lady and she was talking about, do you know Mormon Joseph Smith was a polygamist and all these things. I didn't even know the meaning of that word at the time. He had mindful eyes. I'm like, no way he could have that. There's no way. You know, for me, I couldn't take that immediately. I went to this couple of missionaries house and asked her, I met this lady and she said, this is what it is.

Sirisha Shumway [03:06:28] And that couple of missionaries, she looked at me and she said, said, you know, Sirisha, people are just jealous about the this church and they are spreading all these rumors about it. There's nothing. None of that is true. It is all a lie she told to my face. And obviously I'll believe that. Another experience I can think of is when I came here on my mission, during my mission to do the temple translation, I came alone for the first time. No, I think I had two more people. But I was leaving, A couple of missionaries were dropping me.

Sirisha Shumway [03:07:08] And I saw this sign. You know, in a bridge, in the bridge on the road, there's some sign and they have some writings on that. It says JosephLight.com I still remember that website. It happened almost 20 years ago. I saw it. It says JosephLight.com and then I read it. I was like, JosephSlight.com and then I turned to her and she says I was going to ask her something. And she looks, don't even think about it. Don't even go there. And I'm like, okay, so they shut you down. They deliberately withhold information, period.

Sirisha Shumway [03:07:45] You can think whatever you want. They deliberately withhold. When you are going to developing countries and when you are telling a single mom who is already struggling to meet her ends, is a missionary going and telling her, hey, you need to pay tithing. And what we do with your Money, we have 100,000, whatever billion dollars and we are going to invest that money and we are going to make more money, but it doesn't matter if your kids go hungry for a day. But are the missionaries going to be that transparent and telling that single mom who is barely making enough to feed her kids that her money is going to go into that billion dollar funding

John Dehlin [03:08:29] Disney stock and Tesla stock and Apple stock in the US stock market?

Sirisha Shumway [03:08:33] Yeah. Are you going to tell. I'm challenging you. Are you going to tell you missionaries when you are going and talking to those people, can you tell this? You give that money, but we are going to invest and I'm not going to give you anything. If you need any help from us, we're going to ask you, we're going to kind of humiliate you and we're going to say, say, come clean the chapel for the money we gave you for.

Sirisha Shumway [03:08:58] Are you going to be that transparent? So for you to anybody to say that Mormon missionaries are honest and. No, absolutely not. You are deliberately hiding all these truths. Truths. And when someone comes to them, you give them a label saying anti Mormon literature.

Sirisha Shumway [03:09:21] And when someone questions, you know when I was talking to you about my admission to Utah State University and all these things, like there were people, when I started questioning these same people who said, I wish my daughter is half as faithful as you or my son is half faithful as you. Coming and telling me saying, oh, we gave you this. We gave like, you know who gave me what. Can you ask them to come and see me?

Margi Dehlin [03:09:46] Me?

Sirisha Shumway [03:09:46] Nothing.

John Dehlin [03:09:49] Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [03:09:53] It's so unfair to the people who are joining. And you twist the information, you twist how marriage at that time was underage. So that's what people were doing all these things. People can look at the data and then you stop them saying, oh, that's what anti Mormon literature is. Or what about history?

John Dehlin [03:10:14] Yeah. So how did it feel for you when you realized you had sacrificed so much, including your family, your relationship with your grandma who passed, your mom, your uncle moved here, sacrificed years of education, your career, your own connection with yourself? How did it feel when you realized the church had deceived you?

Discovering Deception and Facing a Faith Crisis

Sirisha Shumway [03:10:45] I really don't have words how to explain that, John. I have no words Again, I tried to make it work by. I don't know. In spite of knowing these things, I said, I'm not going to go to church on Sunday. I'm not going to participate in religious things. I asked my bishop, first time in my life, first time in my life to release me from a calling. And because I have given, I couldn't just. I'm so attached, too attached to this place. I just can't give up. Although I came to know everything and I was teaching, I was a young woman adviser, a teacher at that time.

Sirisha Shumway [03:11:23] I asked him to release me from my. There were times I had three, four callings in India while doing translation, while doing these things, while doing job and all these things. I never asked for a release. For the first time, I did. And I'm not someone who sugarcoats things. I'm not someone who when I went boldly told the people, this is the only truth now that I came to know. I'm not going to just sugarcoat and hide behind like, you know, try to deny it. I'm not that person. I value truth. I value honesty. And I told my bishop, he asked me why, I said, said, there is so much discrepancy.

Sirisha Shumway [03:11:58] I cannot teach kids lies because I was teaching about Joseph Smith story. One of the things. And I just couldn't say it. And I was like, according to the fourth version. And I started and people were giving me looks and I'm like, I just stopped thinking these kids were taught something else in the house here I am teaching something else here.

Sirisha Shumway [03:12:20] It's not. They're young kids, they're small kids. It's not fair for them for me to do. And I just stopped and I told him, I can wash bathrooms in the church. Give me that calling. But I can't teach anymore because I will be teaching lies if I have to follow, and I can't do that.

Sirisha Shumway [03:12:42] And I would go to even activities. And the way people started treating me was so different now that I'm not believing anymore. I used to go for relief societies activities. Even after leaving, it just wouldn't one day. I remember going to the last time I went to church. I compared this to people, people who, if you. If any members who are listening to this.

Sirisha Shumway [03:13:09] When my mom told me not to meet the missionaries, when she closed the door, when the missionaries came, she didn't want me to. I had this feeling of I'm under the water, struggling for breath. I just, I. That feeling, I have to talk to them.

Sirisha Shumway [03:13:25] I. I just didn't know, you know, I had that feeling. And everybody told me, see, that is the Holy Spirit. And I had the same experience again for the second time. This time I was sitting in my car on a Sunday back in. In front of the Redlands Church.

Sirisha Shumway [03:13:45] There was. I just parked right. I never get a parking space. For the first time I got that space where it faces directly to the church. I sat there, I couldn't open the car door and go inside. Brandon said he's not going to come. I didn't feel the kids, my kids should be safe in the church with all these things anymore. I want to protect them. I left them. I came alone. The same feeling, I just. That return turn like I was under the water and I'm struggling to breathe.

Sirisha Shumway [03:14:15] And the moment I decided, put my gear in reverse, went back, I was able to breathe. Never came back again to church. Never after that.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:27] How long ago was that?

Sirisha Shumway [03:14:29] That was 2000. 18, I would say. 18 like that, seven years ago.

John Dehlin [03:14:37] And you didn't tell your mom?

Sirisha Shumway [03:14:39] I told my mom. She wouldn't understand. For her, it's not any of these things that brought her in.

John Dehlin [03:14:45] She's not in for the beliefs or the doctrines.

Sirisha Shumway [03:14:47] She's not in for the beliefs. She's not in for the history. She's not in for any of this. For her, it's purely community.

John Dehlin [03:14:54] Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [03:14:55] And she's getting that community. She's still going till today. She's there and you know, for her that's important. And she has other communities too. She goes to Jesus calls, she goes through Baptist church. You know, for her it is one of them. A place that she can talk to people and people Are being nice to her, you know, and they are fine. And I told her, I never told her not to go. I never tell anybody not to go. I tell them my experience. This is what it is, this is what I came to know. Make your own choice. I'm not the Mormons to manipulate, hypnotize someone to do something right. People need to make their own choice. And I never told my mom not to go either. I told this is what it is. And she says, I don't even care. I don't even know, you know.

John Dehlin [03:15:42] So what was it like for you to at age, what, 40, to realize. 38. To realize you had built your life on untruths?

Sirisha Shumway [03:15:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:54] And then where did you go from there?

Sirisha Shumway [03:15:56] Yeah, 38, 37, something like that. Anyways, first couple of years I was extremely depressed. I went to deep, deep, deep depression. Running over the things, running over the things. That's all I did. I wasn't doing my job. One thing is, it's like me coming out of myself and I was looking at myself. What have you become? I just looked from top to bottom at my own self. What have they made it to you? I don't recognize the person you become anymore. But then I just can't go back. It's not a year or two that I lost. Okay, I'm going to start over and do it. Okay. People still, I'm not disappointing anybody. But there is, there is a, they say decade of decisions for reason.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:49] Reason.

Sirisha Shumway [03:16:50] You make certain decisions during between ages 15 and 25 that affects the rest of your life because that is the age you are deciding.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:59] Right.

Sirisha Shumway [03:17:00] What are you going to do with your life? Are you going to be a doctor? Are you going to be one Mormon missionary and try to do that. So that age, if there is anything I can tell to the future converts or anybody, I would say be careful what the decisions you made between 15 and those 25 years of age, whom you marry, everything, whatever the choices, you really can't undo those things. Yeah, you can try to, you know, I have a career now, you know, all these things. But for me, I went to deep depression. I just couldn't believe like I have become fallen for this wasted 24 years.

Sirisha Shumway [03:17:41] Years, 24 years in this, giving up everything, what my life had become. I started to try to, you know, live in a different reality. My mental health has taken a big toll. I have to go to therapy, I have to go for counseling. I just. That's all. I could talk to people like people who never even heard about Mormonism. And by the end, they talk to me, they can write a book. It was so much for me to take it.

Sirisha Shumway [03:18:14] And I was so lonely because suddenly, not just you only, not only you lost this identity or everything, you lost your community. They don't want to deal with you anymore and say mean things about you. Write me in Facebook messages and you know, like really, really mean, mean stuff. Character assassinate you. I never have.

Sirisha Shumway [03:18:38] All I do is when I have an issue and I see something and I talk openly about it, the people, they don't have a real substantial things to say. Hey, what you're saying is not true or anything. Right. So what they can do is to character assassinate you.

John Dehlin [03:18:54] Did that happen to you?

Sirisha Shumway [03:18:55] Yes, absolutely. It happened to me a lot from different people and the people to whom they know me so well, you know, and some people say she never had a testimony. That is a lot of people. Oh, she never had. Because for them it is so hard to accept someone who really did everything, did all the things that is right left it because it has lies. It's not something they can take it. They will never be able to take it it. So what they can do is they can character assessment. Oh, she never had it. She's in for a reason. Nothing

John Dehlin [03:19:37] that's painful. It's a lot of loss.

Sirisha Shumway [03:19:41] It's a loss of everything. It's loss of your precious time, loss of your opportunity, loss of your relationships with others. My own family.

John Dehlin [03:19:52] Yeah, yeah,

Sirisha Shumway [03:19:56] yeah. It's not right what they have done to me. It's not right.

Leaving the Church and Reconnecting With Indian Identity

Margi Dehlin [03:20:01] Did you feel amidst that reckoning time, did you feel a loss of kind of trust in yourself?

Sirisha Shumway [03:20:10] Yeah, like I started telling open people. I tell my own kids. I'm like, you know what? Don't ever trust me. I became, you know, like I lost trust on myself. It is. No one should do that. When you leave something, either you should have good memories. I'm glad that happened. Or Ms. Or else, you know, it's okay. But this, you end up in counseling that tells this is what a cult this is because they have a cookie cutter. You have to fit in there.

Sirisha Shumway [03:20:49] You have to lose everything else. My career is. I'm like. It took me a long few years to come out of it. I just couldn't talk about it without breaking down. It was really hard for me. And we moved and we were so lonely because all the people we knew in Redlands are members and most people that close to was none of them cared about anymore. So we moved to Central Valley and my husband got a job there. And right now it is much better. But those few years were some of the very hardest years of my life. While I have young kids in the house all this time, everybody is so willing to come help you anytime.

Sirisha Shumway [03:21:37] Suddenly you are alone. Nobody's there to help you anymore. They just don't care. Once you know that it is done, you're done. Again, not everybody. There's one sister that I'm grateful. She really the visiting teacher, one person, she came and visited me even after I left. She never shared a message. She just came to see how you are. So I'm not saying 100% of all of them are like that, but mostly there is one or two exceptions. But most of them seeing that how everybody is, how this church makes people to think, yeah, it's very scary, right? Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [03:22:12] Some of the people, the way they behaved, said the hard things to me. And I was telling my husband, I'm like, you know what? I never want even say there is nothing wrong with the church or history or anything. If leaving it is a reaction you get from the members, that itself is very, is a big scary thing. Forget about doctrine, forget about history, forget about all those things. If leaving makes you people like treat you that bad, no thank you.

John Dehlin [03:22:47] Yeah, there are, you know, sometimes Americans and probably more, even more common orthodox believing Mormon Americans believe that America is the chosen country. They probably believe that being white is the superior race. And that basically even if you, you're smiling already, but even if you, if the church didn't end up being true, you're lucky because you married a white guy, you got to live in the States and now you're here, you're probably a citizen. Like you won. Even if you lost, you won the lottery because you get to live in America and be in a blessed country with the blessed race. You know what I mean? What would your response to that?

Sirisha Shumway [03:23:40] Oh my goodness, there was a time, there was a time. I mean as the Book of Mormon says, brown skin is a skin curse or something. Again, I'm forgetting my scriptures, but that's a good thing. That's a good thing. But something it says about brown skin being a curse, right? White skin or something. I asked my seminary teacher at the time, she said, oh, it's okay, don't worry. If you're righteous, if you're unto the end, we will be white too. And I was excited for that.

Sirisha Shumway [03:24:10] So at that time, yeah, America was a Zion, the chosen land. You know, that's what people say. And all this things, I don't think that is true. It's a good country. I'm not denying that. It gives good opportunities, it's good for people. But I don't, how do I say this?

Sirisha Shumway [03:24:35] I don't consider like America to be the best of the land. I consider myself to be. Yeah, I'm coming here maybe making more money than I would have made in India. Probably go back or something. One thing that I realized after coming from the cult from the Mormon church is seeing how great my own country is.

Sirisha Shumway [03:24:55] Up until then I never even realized seeing my own culture. I always looked it as a gentile country, idol worshipers. But I'm not religious anymore. I don't consider myself to be a practicing orthodox Hindu. But as a culture, I am Hindu. Seeing how great, you know, Mormonism teaches, or Christianity teaches, a man is a sinner just by birth. Man is born a sinner. Hinduism says just because you are a man, that itself, you are great. Wow.

Margi Dehlin [03:25:35] It's like scarcity in abundance.

Sirisha Shumway [03:25:37] It is completely different. And I'm seeing, I'm so sad I'm so far from my country. Yeah, I mean now my kids are here, my husband is here, but I want to go back so bad. If there's anything I could do. I will never leave my country.

Sirisha Shumway [03:25:58] Seeing how great Ayurveda yoga, it's a gift my country gave into the western people. Yoga, you know, and I have never seen that. I was so obsessed that the way they create this obsession, you know, like in India, if anybody, their goal is to come to the States somehow, they would have a better life there. But no, they'll come here, do whatever but has to be there. This creation, this is the right place. This is what it is. Just because you're here, that's immediate enough.

Sirisha Shumway [03:26:32] No. I miss my country. I miss my culture and the teachings of it. How, how, if there's anything, I'm seeing now more clearly how blessed I am to be born in India, the land of spirituality. We invite everybody, we take care of people. Irrespective of your religious background, our everything.

Sirisha Shumway [03:26:58] And you people come defile us with your lies, Corrupt our country. Yeah, with your white Mormon lies about this thing, Joseph, all these things

Margi Dehlin [03:27:19] I

Sirisha Shumway [03:27:19] wish people know how great is my culture. How so? There are some drawbacks here and there. The dowry system. I'm not denying that there are some things. But as a culture and as a country, I am so, so proud to be born. I love my brown skin. I hope the Mormons are wrong about turning it into white. I don't want it white. I love my brown skin. And I respect my husband because of what he is, is not because of his color or because he's a doctor or because of anything. Because of the goodness he's doing to the people, not because he's white. I love this country, too. It has given me some opportunities, A good education and opportunities earned. I'm not denying that. But to say that this is blessed or chosen above, you cannot be more wrong about that.

Margi Dehlin [03:28:14] Right? Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Thank you for that.

John Dehlin [03:28:18] That was beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Any final things you want to say about healing? Because I know there's going to be a lot of people who identify with the pain and the suffering and the sadness and the disillusionment and the depression and the feelings of betrayal. Any hope you want to give people about finding joy and health and happiness again? Or is it too soon?

Healing, Recovery, and Reflections on Mormon Life

Sirisha Shumway [03:28:50] No, it's not too soon. Because a lot of Mormons told me, oh, where will you go now? Oh, what would you do now? Oh, you know, like, it's the end of my life, you know, Lot they kind of made. I just want to tell them, oh, boy, you are so wrong. So wrong. Healing is not even, like, possible.

Sirisha Shumway [03:29:10] It's for sure if that. If you have the courage to come out, if you are pressurizing, if you think there's nothing out, trust me, it is. Oh, I. It was hard. I'm not denying that. It was easy. It was hard. I still grieve over my lost life because I can't bring. Literally can't bring those 24 years back. The church stole it from me, those 24 years. But healing is possible. And whatever makes. Works for you. For me, reconnecting with my country is healing me.

Sirisha Shumway [03:29:43] Reconnecting. Doing my yoga and seeing how all those things are already there that I never seen. I'm just blinded by something else. Whatever works for you, but healing is possible. I moved to a different place, found a job that I love, love, and that gives me fulfillment. I help kids indirectly. I'm in it. And I have a community now. Yeah, Mormonism. Not from my work. It's like a lot of Telugu people. A lot of them are doctors and stuff. I have very good community.

John Dehlin [03:30:19] Oh, wait, you found people from your native land?

Sirisha Shumway [03:30:22] Yeah, my natives. A lot of them are doctors and. And then they're very good people. They're not there to judge me. They're not there to, you know, oh, if you are not. They're all Hindus. There's not one Christian or other religion. They're all Hindus.

Sirisha Shumway [03:30:41] And I take my kids to the temple to the Hindu temple for festivals and all those things. And I tell them, my kids, you can follow any religion if you want. If you don't have to, you don't have to. There's not anybody called me ever. Hey, we missed you in the temple of. On this Pooja day. What's going on with you? Yeah, they call me, see, how am I doing? But there is nothing. So I'm very happy about the community I am in right now. The women, especially in my community, they are so different than the women I grew up with in the Mormon culture.

Sirisha Shumway [03:31:16] You know, these are strong. I'm not saying they're not strong, but their strength is very different when it comes to priesthood. They always put themselves down. But these women, they are doctors, they're business owners, they do 10 things.

Sirisha Shumway [03:31:30] They have that, you know, independency, financial, everything. And I exchange their energy and I'm healing in my own way. I'm not done there yet. I'm not there where I wanted to be there yet. But it's a journey. Healing is not linear. Some days up it is down. But it will always, if you want it, it will be there. The healing will come.

Margi Dehlin [03:31:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:31:58] Beautiful. Did you always wear your more native dress or is that something you've rediscovered?

Sirisha Shumway [03:32:05] I started wearing more recently, you know, and so a few years ago you

John Dehlin [03:32:09] would have been dressing more American style.

Sirisha Shumway [03:32:11] I would say mostly I would, you know, I don't. Yeah, I would probably wear everything. I love my Indian clothes. They're comfortable, they're beautiful. I wish I could have this colors, vibrant colors. Sometimes they're too eye catchy. So I don't wear that much. But yeah, I love my culture and I go every year to India. I go practice yoga and stuff. And it has been a very healing. I just can't believe how, how I denied it all these years. Never when I was in India. But it's not just for your body. It transforms your mind.

Margi Dehlin [03:32:52] Yeah. Yeah. It feels very kind of full circle, like you've come going back to my roots. That's right. And also like a reclaiming of yourself. You know, you belong to yourself now where the church once maybe put a stake in you, you know.

Sirisha Shumway [03:33:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:17] And. And kind of wanted you for their own. It feels like you've taken yourself back. Would you agree?

Sirisha Shumway [03:33:23] Yeah, it's full circle. I. Although I'm very far from my country, but it is healing me.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:33] Yes, husband.

Sirisha Shumway [03:33:35] I. I say that to my husband and says, I am yoga, I am Ganga. You know, it's in me. It was always in Me, Yes. Some of somehow this lies just put a curtain. But now I'm seeing very clearly.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:53] I see that. That's beautiful. We're so happy for that.

John Dehlin [03:33:58] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:59] Yeah. It was like a. In my opinion, it was one of the tragedies I think of Mormonism in particular is just what a separator it is, what a disconnector it is from either people we love or people we don't know or other countries or you know, just other human beings and from ourselves as well. Like how it disconnects us and can make us unfeeling and can make us. Us do terrible things to other people and feel justified or right, you know?

Sirisha Shumway [03:34:35] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:35] Or. And anyway, so this reconnecting that you're doing, it just feels really beautiful. It is.

Sirisha Shumway [03:34:46] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:49] You know, you just, you just gave me an aha moment for the longest time. I would say the gift of the Mormon faith crisis is the rest of your life. But now I want to amend it. The gift of a Mormon faith crisis is you and the rest of your life.

Sirisha Shumway [03:35:07] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:35:08] You get you back, huh?

Sirisha Shumway [03:35:10] I get myself back. I got myself back.

Margi Dehlin [03:35:13] Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [03:35:14] I have. I'm seeing myself like never have before. I wish I could go and protect that 14 year old. Yeah, I wish.

John Dehlin [03:35:24] What would you say to her?

Sirisha Shumway [03:35:27] Run away from the Mormons.

John Dehlin [03:35:29] Run.

Sirisha Shumway [03:35:30] Just run, just run. Your life will be so good. Just run away. If you really wanted to join, wait for a few years, make sure your life, you do all those things. If someone is really dying to join, there is no expiry date, they'll take you anytime anyways. So just wait. Build a career, especially women. Get education. Build a career. There are too many women staying in abusive marriage because they don't have a way out. Build a career, be financially independent, do all the things and then. Yeah. When you're probably at the 30s or 40s or something, or when you've done the major decision making, it will still be there. I don't think it's going anywhere. It will be there, but don't. The decade of decisions 15 to 25, please. Below 25, I would say it's not like you can baptize at 8 and come out of 14 or something when you're making decisions.

Margi Dehlin [03:36:26] Right. And that piece of informed consent.

Sirisha Shumway [03:36:29] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean they wouldn't expect. Because I do know that concept of informed consent at that time. And people wouldn't know like, you know, know unless they're actively searching. And even then the church has answers for everything they have.

Margi Dehlin [03:36:46] Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [03:36:46] You know when it comes to their things, they have all these readily available answers, you know?

Margi Dehlin [03:36:52] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:36:53] The thing is, is the church could teach the principles of informed consent if it believed in them and wanted people to know them. Right?

Sirisha Shumway [03:37:03] Yeah. Yeah. The. Their.

Margi Dehlin [03:37:07] Okay.

Sirisha Shumway [03:37:07] Anyways.

John Dehlin [03:37:08] What, why are you laughing?

Sirisha Shumway [03:37:13] You know, there is a saying that, you know, you can make someone who doesn't know anything at all, you can teach them or people who knows everything they can teach, but people who pretend not to. The church is pretending. Pretending it is not doing any harm. Pretending it is the best thing. Pretending how it has all the truth. Deep down, I think they also. I just don't know. You know, Another funny thing is, ever since I came to church, came out of church, a lot of people started to trust me even more. Some members, they call me like, some of them I don't even know, but somehow they know the word. And then they tell me their concerns, tell me this is what is happening.

John Dehlin [03:37:59] They feel like you're safe to talk to.

Sirisha Shumway [03:38:01] They feel that I am safe to talk to. And I don't even know these people are. And I'm like, why don't you talk to your bishop? You have these things. Why don't you. We have these things. Oh, oh, no, we can't. You know what they'll say.

John Dehlin [03:38:13] Yeah, well, that's so. What a powerful story. I feel so moved by your journey. And honestly, you bring a level of passion towards the church or maybe against the church missionary program that I don't know I've seen as much before on Mormon stories, but that makes total sense. It's important because a lot of people are like, oh, I'm still glad because overall I found my husband or I found my kids and I got out of a rough situation. I think you're one of the first people I've ever met who's like, I would have been way better off never joining to begin with. I think you may be one of the first people that's a. Ever actually said that. But I'm sure you're not alone.

Sirisha Shumway [03:39:03] Again, I love my husband. He's a good man. I love my kids. But there could have been other person who's good for him. There could have been other person who's good for me. It is not like he is the only one and only because of church or I would have probably met him in a different realm and it would have still made it work. I really. They. There is all the. The church has only brought me pain.

Margi Dehlin [03:39:29] Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [03:39:30] Yeah. And one. One of the worst thing I would say is all those people who showed me love. There are only two people that are in contact and who cares about me. From Hyderabad, from those two girls, everybody else. I. I was really devastated to see that the love never came from a real place of love. It was conditional.

Margi Dehlin [03:39:50] Right.

Sirisha Shumway [03:39:51] All the care, all the things that I thought at that time, they loved me. It was so conditional. That was very hard for me to digest. And how they all turned out against me. Now. I still love them. I still do. But I'm sorry. For what? The brainwashing, whatever. I don't blame them. It is their church, you know, brainwashing or whatever. It's making them. I have no ill feelings towards anybody. I wish them best. If it is working for them. Them. Yeah. But please be very careful when you're talking to somebody new who is not from this culture, who's not from this.

Margi Dehlin [03:40:31] Right.

Sirisha Shumway [03:40:31] It will destroy us.

Margi Dehlin [03:40:33] Yes, that's right.

John Dehlin [03:40:37] That was our experience, too, that Mormon friendship and Mormon love was deeply conditional.

Sirisha Shumway [03:40:42] Very conditional.

John Dehlin [03:40:43] Yeah.

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

Margi Dehlin [03:40:44] I think one of the things that, you know, I'll just say kind of finally for me is just. Just how incredibly you gave to the Mormon Church. How you just gave all. Really.

Sirisha Shumway [03:41:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:41:03] And to what extent you trusted and were desperate, honestly, because of how it's set up and how manipulative I think it is for you to have salvation and for you to have the kind of the things in heaven that you. You were told you needed. And now you get to decide who you give to. Yeah. And you get to give to yourself, you know, and that just, like, makes me feel deeply happy because your giving is so special and people should absolutely, I feel like, be deserving of what you give.

Sirisha Shumway [03:41:49] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:41:51] They should deserve it. Yeah.

Sirisha Shumway [03:41:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:41:55] So thank you for sharing so generously with us today and on some level reliving some really kind of hard things. So thank you.

Sirisha Shumway [03:42:06] I think this is my final closure as well, because it has been bothering. It's like looking into the eye of a demon for the last time.

John Dehlin [03:42:13] Time.

Sirisha Shumway [03:42:14] And I can tell you that the church. Yeah. Took away a lot from me, but I rose up like a phoenix.

Margi Dehlin [03:42:21] You sure did.

Sirisha Shumway [03:42:23] You can't have your control all the time on. On me. I really don't care what you think of me. I'm going to live my life on my terms and myself as a priority and my kids and makes me happy. Happy. There is not an old man sitting and telling me, validating what my decisions are. I don't care. What do you think of me? I care what I think of me.

Margi Dehlin [03:42:50] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [03:42:52] I'm not adding to that.

Margi Dehlin [03:42:53] Nope, we'll just leave it there.

John Dehlin [03:42:56] Beautiful. Well, Sirisha Shumway, thank you so much for the generosity and courage and hope you've given us all with your story.

Margi Dehlin [03:43:08] Thank you. Yeah, we honor you.

Sirisha Shumway [03:43:11] Thank you. Thank you for giving me this opportunity. If nothing else, this is for my kids. Again, as I said.

John Dehlin [03:43:19] Yeah. But I know it's going to help a lot of people and it may save some other people pain, the type of pain you've experienced. So thank you.

Sirisha Shumway [03:43:30] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:43:31] All right. All right. Well, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. We would love your comments and feedback. Please leave comments. I'm sure Sirisha will check the comments on YouTube. Maybe not, but please share them either way.

John Dehlin [03:43:47] Please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if you have feedback. You know, the way that we found out about Sirisha is just she applied. So if you have a story that you want to tell tell, we'd love you to go to MormonStories.org, scroll down until you find the application form. Click on the form, apply, record a three minute video. Tell us why you believe your story will fit well with our audience. Because that's what we're looking for, people that understand our audience and that understand why their story would connect with our audience. And we'd love to consider you for the podcast just really quickly. We couldn't do this without the support of our donors.

John Dehlin [03:44:28] Our revenue is struggling a bit right now, honestly, because people continually move on. So thank you. If you're a donor, we couldn't do this without you. If you value this type of content and you want to see it continue, the way that you can keep this stuff alive is by going to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor.

John Dehlin [03:44:52] And that's how we're able to afford to keep going. Other ways you can help is by subscribing to the channel on YouTube or on Spotify or Apple podcasts. By liking it, by liking this episode, by giving us a positive five star review on Spotify or on Apple podcast or wherever you consume these podcasts.

John Dehlin [03:45:16] And again, just hearing your feedback, as always, you. So thanks again for joining us, Margi. It's been so great to have you. Thank you for being. Everyone loves you, Margi. Everyone loves you.

Margi Dehlin [03:45:26] Oh, I feel the love. Thank you all.

John Dehlin [03:45:31] So thanks for being my co host. And again, Suresh, thanks so much for joining us today.

Sirisha Shumway [03:45:36] Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity. John and Margi, thank you.

John Dehlin [03:45:40] And finally, thanks to Brooklyn and Julia and our board of directors that also keep everything going. Y' all be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care

Sirisha Shumway [03:45:55] of.

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