On today’s episode, we welcome two very special guests! Leopoldo Larcher and Emily Guincho are a father–daughter duo here to share their Italian Mormon story as the first family to join the LDS Church in Italy.
Leopoldo details his experience of quickly being placed into leadership roles and bearing the responsibility of helping establish the structure of the Church in Italy. Over the years, he worked with many LDS Church leaders, from Ezra Taft Benson to Spencer W. Kimball.
His daughter, Emily, joins us to share her own perspective on what it was like for her and her siblings to grow up in an environment dominated by church service and the immense pressure to represent Mormonism in their community.
Together, Emily and Leopoldo reflect on what it meant to be Mormon pioneers in Italy, how their dedicated service affected their family life, and where they stand with the Church today. They also discuss what the LDS community looks like in Italy within a predominantly Catholic culture, and the challenges the Church faces as it attempts to establish a uniquely American institution in Europe.
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-host: Margi Dehlin · Guests: Emily Guincho, Leopoldo Larcher
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction and Guest Backgrounds
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's January 22, 2026, and today we will be interviewing the first family baptized into the Mormon Church in Italy after World War II. We'll be hearing their story and perhaps more interestingly to some of our audience coming to understand why this family has decided to or has left the Mormon Church. So without any further ado, we introduce to you Leopoldo Larker. Hello, Leopoldo. Thanks for joining us.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:00:36] Nice to meet you.
John Dehlin [00:00:38] And with Leopoldo today is his daughter, Emily. Hey, Emily.
Emily Guincho [00:00:43] Hello.
John Dehlin [00:00:44] And Emily, your maiden name is Larker, but your. Your current last name is Guincho, is that right? Guincho? All right, well, we really appreciate y' all being here, and we're really excited to hear your Italian Mormon story. And joining us in the studio, we're super fortunate to have my wife and co host, Margi. Hey, Margi.
Margi Dehlin [00:01:08] Hello.
John Dehlin [00:01:09] And Margi's a quarter Italian, by the way. Her mom is half Italian, so it's. It's an Italian Mormon story all the way around today. Um, all right, well, I don't think that we've ever interviewed an Italian family on Mormon Stories podcast. So this is a first. We always. We have a goal to cover as many countries as we can on Mormon Stories. So that's something that's really exciting to hear about today. But also, your family in particular has held several important positions in Italy, including mission president in Italy. Is that right?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:01:52] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:01:53] And Temple sealer, is that. Is that also right?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:01:56] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:01:56] Yeah. And. And over the years, you had the privilege or opportunity to meet with several Mormon general authority, general authorities, and apostles.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:02:08] So at that time, I was also regional representative.
John Dehlin [00:02:13] You've been an area authority for. For the Mormon Church as well. Wow. So this is like Hans and Brigitte Mattson level Mormon stories or Tom Phillips level Mormon stories. I want to ask you if you've received your second anointing.
Emily Guincho [00:02:28] No, but he knows about it.
John Dehlin [00:02:29] He knows about it.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:02:30] Okay.
Emily Guincho [00:02:31] Actually, I don't know if he got it. Did you?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:02:45] Okay.
Emily Guincho [00:02:46] Oh, wow. I did not know this. He did not receive his second anointing, but he was a translator.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:02:51] Was President Monson. Apostle Monson came to the Swiss temple and requested me to make a translation of what he was doing to some of our brethren in the church.
John Dehlin [00:03:13] Okay, well, this will be fun, so buckle up. Leopoldo, why don't we start with you? Where in Italy were you born and what year were you born?
Leopoldo's Early Life and Family in Italy
Leopoldo Larcher [00:03:25] Okay. I was born in 1939.
John Dehlin [00:03:29] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:03:30] And in A small village close to Bologna.
John Dehlin [00:03:35] Okay, and where is that in Italy?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:03:37] Emilia. Romagna region is, I always say, northern part of Italy.
John Dehlin [00:03:46] And 39 would have been, I guess, Benito Mussolini would have been the head of Italy.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:03:51] That part of the story.
John Dehlin [00:03:53] You're not a fan of Mussolini?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:03:55] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:03:56] Do you remember Mussolini?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:03:58] No, I was too small. My brother maybe would remember.
John Dehlin [00:04:02] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:04:03] But. Well, I started to understand after World War II.
John Dehlin [00:04:10] Yeah.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:04:10] So.
John Dehlin [00:04:12] So would Italy have already been entered into World War II when you were born in 1939?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:04:23] Oh, yeah, of course. Okay.
John Dehlin [00:04:25] All right. Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:04:26] But you wouldn't remember American bombing.
John Dehlin [00:04:30] Okay.
Emily Guincho [00:04:30] Yeah, first that and then the rescue of the Americans.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:04:35] Yeah, that story. Bad story.
John Dehlin [00:04:37] Okay. Okay. So you were. And you're. I imagine your family was Roman Catholic when you. When you were born.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:04:45] I would say, like a majority of the Italian family.
John Dehlin [00:04:49] Yeah. Okay. So how did your family first encounter Mormon missionaries? What year and how.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:04:57] Oh, well, that. I was. I was married and I had the first baby, so means 64.
Margi Dehlin [00:05:08] Yes,
Leopoldo Larcher [00:05:11] 90. 64.
John Dehlin [00:05:12] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:05:15] It was strange because my brother at that time was living in Germany for work.
John Dehlin [00:05:20] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:05:22] And somehow my brother was speaking to my mother, my father, about this new church. So beautiful, so interesting. So my brother said, okay, why we. Why we try to send missionary. She was asking to the leaders in Germany, why we don't send a couple of missionary to my parents? They probably are ready to receive that message.
John Dehlin [00:06:02] So your brother joined first in Germany?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:06:05] Yeah, in Germany.
John Dehlin [00:06:06] Okay. And it's hard for me to believe that there weren't Mormon missionaries in Italy prior to the 1960s.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:06:19] No, they weren't, because I remember that when they were talking about a brother that was baptized in Sicily by an apostle. I don't even remember that name.
Emily Guincho [00:06:32] So his name is Vincenzo di Francesca.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:06:35] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [00:06:36] And he found. There's a video that the church has put out, and it's a miraculous story because he finds this book without a cover. He was a priest for an Episcopalian church. I'm not sure. And he was interested in finding out the source of this book because he didn't know the title. He didn't. There was no cover.
John Dehlin [00:07:01] Is this Herrera Possession, the movie?
Margi Dehlin [00:07:03] It is.
John Dehlin [00:07:04] I remember seeing this growing up in the church.
Emily Guincho [00:07:06] So he.
John Dehlin [00:07:07] What year was this about?
Emily Guincho [00:07:09] Late 1800s, I believe, maybe beginning of 1900s.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:07:14] Blocked. They couldn't move. He couldn't go to Rome because of war.
Emily Guincho [00:07:18] He couldn't get to. Anyway, you can watch the movie. But he couldn't get to be baptized because of all the war tensions and all of it. Eventually he was Able to communicate by writing letters to Salt Lake and was able to get baptized at the end of his life, I believe. And he got to go to the temple Switzerland, because that was his highest goal. But then he died right after. So basically that was the end of it. But they did make a movie, and it's pretty significant.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:07:58] He was a priest. I couldn't meet him. I couldn't meet him. It was too late.
Emily Guincho [00:08:03] Yes, he passed away in like 1929.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:08:10] No, I don't remember.
Emily Guincho [00:08:11] I can't remember.
First Encounters with Mormon Missionaries
Margi Dehlin [00:08:12] So did you end up meeting missionaries as a result of your brother? Is that how that happened?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:08:20] Happened that missionaries tried to talk to my parents, you know, they were old and they said, really, we don't want to change. I recognize that the church, Mormon church is very good. But, you know, we are used to. We are old and we don't want to change. So they talked to me, me and my wife, and everything seems to be so beautiful. So we accepted, like baby accepted that. So we started to investigate and everything was wonderful. Then it was in August, and in Italy in August, everyone goes to the sea for vacation. And so we said to the elder, we have to go, because the only time we have during the year to rest, to enjoy life. And so they said, oh, we can come with you,
Margi Dehlin [00:09:40] we have an idea.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:09:43] So they came and we found for them an apartment, a rented apartment. So we stayed there. So to make the story short, we were given all the lesson, the discussion, they were given all on the beach under the umbrella.
Margi Dehlin [00:10:04] That has to enhance, I feel like an experience.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:10:09] It is. So at the end of the week, in just one week, at the end of the week, we decided to be baptized in the sea. So the question was, well, we don't have the white dress, so what we do? Oh, we can baptize you Iur. So my wife was in bikini, I was in my trunk pants and we went in the sea. But in order to find water enough high, we had to go what we called the first seca Mexicano.
Emily Guincho [00:10:52] I had to walk a long ways away because it was sandbar all the way.
Margi Dehlin [00:10:57] Got it to get it deep enough.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:10:59] So we found a place and we were baptized. The joy of one of the two elders was so great that if make
Emily Guincho [00:11:09] a tufo, he dove. He dove in the water.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:11:13] And coming out of the water, he lost his glasses. His glasses. I went down and fortunately I got in my hand the glasses. So that's my story.
John Dehlin [00:11:30] And Leopoldo, what. What convinced you to join the church? Was it prayer? Was it reading the book Of Mormon. Was it just these nice missionaries?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:11:39] I would say all of them practically. But I think the ability of the elders and explain the good things and the differences between the Catholic Church. We were not very active in the Catholic Church, but we had the impression that the Catholic Church was not too far from our ideas. So when the missionaries started to talk about the gospel, we said, well, that sounds good, I want to attend all the function. But there was not a church. There were only two elders and only for a month. And then they went back because that time was the last month of their missions. So they went back. Going back. We were left alone. We had only the address of the Swiss mission where we should supposed to send our tithing.
Emily Guincho [00:12:59] They made sure they let that I
Margi Dehlin [00:13:01] was going to say.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:13:02] And that was for six months.
Emily Guincho [00:13:06] Oh, wow.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:13:07] When finally two missionary from a Swiss mission came visit us, visiting us. And that started. So we had the meeting in our apartment. We were moving the furniture in order to make room.
John Dehlin [00:13:29] And what city was this again?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:13:31] 65.
John Dehlin [00:13:34] 65. In what city?
Emily Guincho [00:13:42] Brescia.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:13:43] Brescia.
John Dehlin [00:13:43] That's a city.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:13:44] A city in the north of Italy.
John Dehlin [00:13:46] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:13:47] It's between Milan and Venice.
John Dehlin [00:13:51] Got it.
Emily Guincho [00:13:51] That's where they make the Beretta guns. Let everybody know that.
John Dehlin [00:13:54] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:13:56] You have to excuse my English. It's very poor.
John Dehlin [00:13:59] No, that's fantastic.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:14:00] I can. I cannot improve. I am 86, so it's fantastic. It's going different anyway.
Margi Dehlin [00:14:08] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:14:10] Did you read. Did you read the Book of Mormon?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:14:14] Yeah, we had the Book of Mormon in Italian.
John Dehlin [00:14:17] Okay. And so. So there was a Book of Mormon in Italian, but not any missionaries in Italy yet?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:14:25] No.
John Dehlin [00:14:25] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:14:27] And until 65. 65, yeah. The first Mission Italy mission with a seat in Florence.
John Dehlin [00:14:41] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:14:43] And yeah. Then somehow I was called as counselor of the mission president.
John Dehlin [00:14:50] So you were called into the mission presidency in Florence.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:14:54] Florence.
John Dehlin [00:14:55] But you didn't live in Florence.
Emily Guincho [00:14:57] No.
John Dehlin [00:14:58] You did not live in Florence?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:14:59] No, no, in Brescia. Brescia going down to Florence is three and a half hours or more. More than that of those days. There is no highway.
Emily Guincho [00:15:09] Oh, there wasn't a highway. So yeah, about four and a half hours.
Margi Dehlin [00:15:12] Interesting.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:15:13] Anyway, okay, it is at this point. Okay, then what do you want?
John Dehlin [00:15:21] So I. One of the things I remember about learning very distinctly in the 1980s was the teaching that the Catholic Church. The Mormon teaching that the Catholic Church was the great and abominable church mentioned in the Book of Mormon. It was actually referred to as a harlot.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:15:52] I didn't know that. No, no.
Emily Guincho [00:15:56] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:15:56] I Didn't.
John Dehlin [00:15:57] So you weren't. And I think the Book of Mormon even references the Catholic Church as the great and abominable whore as well. And so I was just wondering if, if any of that sort of messaging would have gotten to you living in the country that that is the seat of the, of the Roman Catholic Church.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:16:20] I, I, I, I was not aware of that. I didn't know anything.
Emily Guincho [00:16:26] Yeah, I don't think it specifically says that the Catholic Church is the whore of the earth.
John Dehlin [00:16:31] So it didn't in the Book of Mormon. But Bruce R. McConkie's Mormon doctrine said this.
Emily Guincho [00:16:35] And that never came to their attention.
John Dehlin [00:16:37] Okay.
Emily Guincho [00:16:38] They made sure that did not.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:16:40] I didn't care too much. You know, it's the same problem now.
John Dehlin [00:16:44] Yeah. Which is what?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:16:46] The Saints in Italy, they know nothing about what happens here. So I don't know. It seems that the information remain in United States. They don't go in Europe.
Margi Dehlin [00:17:04] Interesting.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:17:04] And not in Italy. When I present some question to friend of mine about the church that has done something not totally perfect, they don't believe me. They don't want to believe. They want some paper that justify what I am saying.
Emily Guincho [00:17:31] They want proof what he's saying. Yeah, he wants the proof. They want the proof from the church saying what he's stating.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:17:43] Basically without arms.
Margi Dehlin [00:17:47] Right.
Emily Guincho [00:17:47] So in the same army I'm without weapons.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:17:51] Weapons.
Emily Guincho [00:17:52] I see.
John Dehlin [00:17:54] So what's it like to raise a young family in the church in a foreign country when there isn't a strong ward or a strong stake and there might not even be a branch? How do you stay faithful and interested and engaged in the church?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:18:16] Well, we were our branch, our family. My family.
John Dehlin [00:18:20] My family was the branch.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:18:21] One baby
Margi Dehlin [00:18:25] intimate.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:18:27] Keeping the meetings, Sunday meetings in my apartment. And that was branch, but really we were not the branch. We were just group or even less than a group.
Emily Guincho [00:18:39] Yeah.
Baptism and Early Church Life in Italy
Margi Dehlin [00:18:40] I have a question with regard to, you know, after you were baptized, did you have to change your life? Did you have to change kind of the way you were living? Did you drink coffee? Did you like. I'm curious if it, in what way it changed you the living of your life?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:19:04] Well, really it is difficult for me to explain this, but. Well, we adopted all the church instructions and we lived for them. And we didn't care much about what the people were saying. We were satisfied and everything was good for us. And we accepted all the information that were coming little by little by the missionaries because they were the only one people we could met or meet. And even when the first mission president Was called. We didn't get much instructions, so we had the Book of Mormon missionary. The church was based on that. Good or not?
Emily Guincho [00:20:10] That was to translate the question, because I don't think he.
John Dehlin [00:20:14] I mean, that was really useful information. Is there anything else you want to ask him?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:20:27] My life has not changed.
Emily Guincho [00:20:30] Your life did not change because we
Leopoldo Larcher [00:20:31] were a good family.
John Dehlin [00:20:32] You didn't smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:20:36] Exactly.
John Dehlin [00:20:37] Okay. Even coffee. You didn't drink coffee.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:20:39] We were clean. Yeah. So we didn't have a problem to accept that rules. Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:20:45] I see.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:20:46] So it was so easy. And we said maybe we were prepared for joining the church. So.
Margi Dehlin [00:20:56] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:20:57] What was your profession? What was your job at that time?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:21:02] I was. Industrial.
John Dehlin [00:21:10] A laundromat.
Emily Guincho [00:21:11] An industrial laundromat for hospitals and restaurants.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:21:14] I was technical. I was responsible for keeping all the machinery working.
John Dehlin [00:21:21] Got it.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:21:22] That's my job.
John Dehlin [00:21:23] So you're kind of a mechanic.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:21:25] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:21:26] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:21:27] All right.
John Dehlin [00:21:29] So what was it like? How did you see the church grow in Italy from when you joined to, you know, the next several decades? How. What are your observations about how the church grew in Italy?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:21:55] Okay. Okay.
John Dehlin [00:21:59] How'd they do it?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:22:03] Well, I think the major reason is that, according to my understanding, is that the majority of the Italians are tired of the Catholic Church. This is also why the Jehovah Witnesses are growing. So Italian saints are tired to see priests and bishops and archibes doing only a scene, saying of theater,
Emily Guincho [00:22:52] Putting up a show. The Catholic Church is just putting up the show of whatever it is that they're doing.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:22:58] And the people in Italy are colors, you know, fancy. Hmm.
John Dehlin [00:23:05] So Italians, you perceive that Italians generally were tired of the Catholic Church, that they had all this dress, fancy dress and pomp and. And circumstance and ritual, but they weren't really engaging the Italian people meaningfully.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:23:25] And this is why the Italian accept very, very rapidly the Mormon Church and Jehovah Witnesses. Because we were those simple. We were like normal men and normal women. And this is why. And now? Well, now it's different. Now it's different.
John Dehlin [00:23:51] Okay. Okay. And then did you said general authorities would visit your family or visit Italy while you were. While you were living there? Do you. Do you have memories of general authorities visiting?
Leopoldo's Leadership and General Authority Encounters
Leopoldo Larcher [00:24:11] Depends. With what are we talking about? When I was missing president.
John Dehlin [00:24:17] Yeah. All the way through. In general?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:24:20] Before that? Yeah. Every once in a while, you know, they were saying when the general authorities had to go to east, they stopped to roam always. So they dedicated one or two days talking to the elders, to the missionaries, and talking to the Saints. So I received a lot of instruction by them. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:24:51] Are there any. Are there any names that you remember of general authorities that you met over the years?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:24:57] Almost all of them.
John Dehlin [00:24:59] Okay, so when you were. When you joined the church, David O. McKay would have been prophet.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:25:06] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:25:06] Did David O. McKay ever come to Italy?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:25:09] I am not seeing him.
John Dehlin [00:25:10] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:25:11] Except when I came here to Salt Lake.
John Dehlin [00:25:16] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:25:17] Because of responsibility. I receive it after mission services.
John Dehlin [00:25:23] Okay. So I'll just name some names. Did you ever remember meeting Spencer W. Kimball?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:25:30] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:25:31] What was he like?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:25:32] I do.
John Dehlin [00:25:33] What was he like?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:25:36] The Fatacola.
Emily Guincho [00:25:38] Whatever you want.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:25:39] Okay. Well, I was called by. At that time, I was already regional representative. So I received a desire from the local leaders to come to Salt Lake on the next visit and to complain for a movie that was prepared for the church in Italy using Italian saints. And that film, I Ate It. And the saints, the leaders of the church, they were saying, we can't use it. Please go there and tell the leaders, tell to the prophet that you can't. They can't use this film. We will not use it, they said. So I came here for another reason. I came for home front. Schemaba.
Emily Guincho [00:26:48] Home front?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:26:49] Yeah. Dominica.
Margi Dehlin [00:26:55] Whoa.
Emily Guincho [00:26:55] I have no idea. He's saying that there used to be a film.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:27:00] Spoken word music and spoken words Music and spoken words.
John Dehlin [00:27:04] So that was the Mormon Tabernacle Choir broadcast.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:27:07] Yeah. And I was called to.
Emily Guincho [00:27:20] Okay, so he was chosen to be the face and the dubbing voice for the music and the spoken word.
John Dehlin [00:27:29] Oh, okay.
Emily Guincho [00:27:31] I don't. He doesn't remember the name of the person that was at the time.
John Dehlin [00:27:35] Spencer Kennard or Spencer. Spencer Canard.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:27:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:27:40] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:27:41] And. And I never saw it. What I did, I never saw. I don't know where it went, but anyway, I never saw it. And then. So in. In a moment that we were free, I remember I had to talk to the leader of the church about this film. So I went to the office.
John Dehlin [00:28:06] Was this the Herrera possession film about the Italian man who joined the church reading the Book of Mormon or not? Was it a different movie? What was the movie about? Do you remember? Don't remember?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:28:25] No. Really, I don't remember.
John Dehlin [00:28:26] Okay, that's fine.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:28:27] Well, it was really poor. There was an Italian family from the south speaking with a hard dialect and showing something unbelievable. And we all rejected that. So I went see if I can continue. I went to the office, and it was not the building we have now. It was small, so I saw people waiting in front of the door. So I stayed. Later, a little Bit. And then I said, well, if it's possible, I want to talk to some leader. And then the person went and then came out immediately. The secretary, President Kimball. Oh, brother Larkin. Oh, we are waiting for you so much. Please come in, come in. And I was in front of the President Kimball, and in order to make the story short, he set me apart as a sealer of the Swiss temple. Oh,
Margi Dehlin [00:29:48] wait, so you went there to give feedback about the movie, saying, we don't like the movie, but you were offered to be sealer?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:30:00] Yeah, in the temple. But I told anyway. I told what the local leaders in Italy asked me to say. I said, president, there is a film that is impossible to be seen in Italy. All the local leaders are against it. Okay, okay. And then they changed the other interesting office.
John Dehlin [00:30:26] So did they do anything with the movie or did they just leave it?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:30:30] We have not seen it. Very, very possible. It was stopped. Right.
John Dehlin [00:30:36] So they listened.
Emily Guincho [00:30:37] Success.
John Dehlin [00:30:38] They listened to you?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:30:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:30:39] Oh, good.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:40] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:30:40] I was strong enough.
John Dehlin [00:30:44] I like it. Okay, how about Ezra Tap Benson? Do you remember Ezra Tap Benson coming to Italy? Any memories of him
Leopoldo Larcher [00:30:57] different? Well, when we were seated, the large round table on the church office building on the top floor. You know that? No. They are used to put together all the leaders from different countries, church leaders of different countries. And they share and we eat with them, we talk with them, we exchange opinions. I've seen almost all of them. I talk almost all of them during those occasions.
John Dehlin [00:31:41] So do you have any stories of conversations with general authorities that were memorable to you?
Emily Guincho [00:31:54] That I call it.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:32:05] Many. Well, let's start with man. Okay, maybe something very easy. We are in Florence. Elder Benson came and we were taking dinner and I said to the mission president, well, I will not partake because I am in a way of understanding that the church is calling me somehow. And was a time when I was called counselor admission president. So I was fasting and President Benson. Elder Benson. At that time, I had the first baby. She was 2 years old. And he came out of the room kneeling down and playing with my baby. So that makes me see the church like something very, very important. And the humility of this person then President Monson. Okay, President Monson. Well, at that time, I was a mission president. He came in Rome. Yeah, came in Rome. And after all the meetings with missionary with the local leaders, he made a question. Which kind of priesthood do you have? I am an elder. Oh, it shouldn't be that way. I'll come. You must be at least a 70. Let me take you and set you apart as a 70. After three months, a letter came from the church office. Oh, all of those that have been called as an elder by 70, as a 70, by local apostle moving around the world should go back to their priesthood. So I have been 70 and then elder, and I became high priest two or three years. Three years after that.
John Dehlin [00:34:58] Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So when I was younger, in the church, there's the Aaronic priesthood, the Melchizedek priesthood, and the Melchizedek priesthood had the offices of elder, high priest and 70, and. Yeah. And at some point, they abolished the. The office of 70.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:35:18] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:35:19] So that would have been interesting for an apostle to voluntarily call you as a 70 and ordain you as a 70.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:35:26] Exactly.
John Dehlin [00:35:27] And then a short time later, have the entire office taken away.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:35:31] Right, exactly. I said, well, I am an elder. I was an elder. I am an elder. What's the difference? I didn't find, anyway, another story. Oh, Kimbo Kimball. Right. Sometime I forget. President Kimball came. Came visiting. At that time, I was a mission president in Sicily, Catania Mission.
John Dehlin [00:36:07] You were the actual president of the
Emily Guincho [00:36:09] mission at that time? Yes.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:36:12] And President Kimball came in August, in Sicily. In August, hot with Arizona. Anyway, we couldn't find. Because in August, all the hotels are busy. We couldn't find a good hotel. Good for me, for the president of his church. Finally, we found good enough. So we left the mission. The president of the church there with two elders. My elders, stay in front of the door as bodyguard. And the elders, the following day was saying to me, you know, I don't understand. They were laughing all night. So I. I requested the president, what was in your room that you were laughing so much? The elders reported to me, we're mosquitoes all around. And so this is, you know, instead of complaining husband and wife, they were saying, hey, we are laughing because the mosquitoes. How simple this person was. I loved him a lot.
Margi Dehlin [00:37:46] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [00:37:47] And then he played the piano.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:37:49] Yeah. Then he came visiting our apartment, and they went directly to the piano and started to play. You know, when I was young, I was in. I had the band.
Emily Guincho [00:38:04] He's related to you, right? Or you're related to him? No, Kimball.
John Dehlin [00:38:08] Kimball Benson was a. Is a cousin of mine, not Kimball. But Kimball played the piano.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:38:14] Yeah, but he told me that when he was young, he had the band. Maybe this is what they told me, and I believe it.
John Dehlin [00:38:26] And you liked him? He was a nice man.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:38:28] Yes, I liked him.
Margi Dehlin [00:38:30] And his stories seem quite positive.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:38:33] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:38:34] That you're having.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:38:35] I saw the humility, being so troubled by this Truth, you know, and yeah,
John Dehlin [00:38:43] he developed throat cancer in the 70s.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:38:47] At that age, with that problem, coming from United States to Sicily, that make a difference? You don't know. If I start to talk to you about Sicily, you will never come to Italy.
John Dehlin [00:39:04] What's wrong with Sicily?
Emily Guincho [00:39:06] Well, for once.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:39:07] But she was born there.
Margi Dehlin [00:39:09] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:39:10] Oh, okay. You were born when your parents were mission presidents in Sicily.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:39:15] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:39:16] You were born.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:39:17] And after 15 days we went back to Brescia.
Emily Guincho [00:39:22] They were at the end of their mission.
Margi Dehlin [00:39:24] Okay. So I just want to make. Maybe this is an obvious observation, but it feels like you were kind of thrust into leadership, like quite high leadership in the church as a young person.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:39:41] Yeah, I was 30, 38, 39.
Emily Guincho [00:39:45] You were 40. You were 39 when you were done with your mission? Yes.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:39:51] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [00:39:52] He was called at 36 to be a mission president.
John Dehlin [00:39:55] Yeah, that's not normal in the church. Usually missionary couples or mission presidents and their wives are in their, I don't know, 50s.
Margi Dehlin [00:40:08] Would it be worthwhile just for the audience that may not be affiliated with, to go through the levels? Because this idea of him being a mission president in his 30s, then an area authority. Yeah. Like, do you want to quickly just do. Isn't it the sort of levels. I think it's interesting just from joining the church to the point where now you're in these positions, it's unique. It's a very unique part of your story that I think is not normal, right?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:40:49] Yeah, yeah, I think the same. Yeah, I thought the same. But you know, when you are involved, you don't make too many questions. You do your work.
Margi Dehlin [00:41:03] That's right. And it's clear you were foundational to Italy with regard to the church there.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:41:12] Yeah. For example, when I came on the mission with the service of a mission president, I found that the majority of the word. Yeah, let call word. But there was branches.
Margi Dehlin [00:41:33] Branches.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:41:34] Anyway, majority were led by missionary. So I said to myself, if the church has decided to call me as a mission president, why should I permit missionaries to serve as branch president? So it changed all of them in a very short time. I found people to put in the position as branch president.
Margi Dehlin [00:42:07] That's right.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:42:07] So that was my first issue.
Margi Dehlin [00:42:12] Got it.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:42:13] This must be changed.
Family Life and Raising Children in the Church
Margi Dehlin [00:42:14] Okay, I have a question. Can we go back to your family for a minute and you can definitely answer as well. But this idea of your family within the church, how would you describe. Was your family all about church? Was church just sort of a part of what you did? Like, did it in your everyday, would you say, with your Family. Were you reading scriptures? Were you. Was it more of. How would you describe family life?
Emily Guincho [00:42:52] I came a lot later when he started his mission, he already had three kids. And so the next sibling next to me is seven and a half years older. So I don't really know the dynamics of family, home, evening or reading scriptures. Before I was born, I'm assuming that they would read scriptures together and they would do family meeting together. But it makes sense to me that they were so involved, being so busy that yes, family life was definitely church life. When I came around, it was a little bit different. They were done with their mission and you know, having to wait seven and a half years to have another baby is a big gap. So they had to start all over. And maybe they were focusing more on me than the church. But I remember when I was 10, 12, doing family home evening, but frequently, regularly trying to do study scriptures in the morning before we'd go to school. He also was working for the church after he came back from his mission. And so he'd leave like at 7:30 in the morning and come back at 7:30 at night because he would have to travel for an hour by train to go to Milan, where the headquarters were and an hour back.
John Dehlin [00:44:20] So what was he doing for the church?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:44:23] The first position was real estate and then maintenance and then of buildings.
John Dehlin [00:44:34] Of church buildings.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:44:35] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:44:35] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:44:36] Yeah. And then at the end was manager of the office. That's. I finished. I found myself a cancer, so I quit.
Emily Guincho [00:44:49] Yeah, he had prostate cancer and so he had to quit. But he had to travel a lot too. Like he would go to Budapest, he went to Romania. You were in charge of the Eastern Europe area, correct?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:45:09] I avoided to being called as area manager for the physical facility. I couldn't support. I had my family. So when I was going three days per week and then traveling east, traveling north, first they called me, said there is a good position in France. So I took my wife and we went to France and see. I said, come on. But I started to understand that sometime is good to see no. So that my wife changed. I started to say no quite often.
Margi Dehlin [00:46:02] Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine that there was so much work to do. As the church is growing and you're
Leopoldo Larcher [00:46:09] a resource, really, you start to do it. Why do now my children say, well, dad, you forgot us. You forgot us. We were not having different nice family like before. You imposed us your rules. We didn't accept though. But we were scared to tell you. We were not happy. But they telling me now they have 40, 50 years and 60. They are all but one out of the church. That's my fault. I recognize that too late. But somehow was a blessing for them not being too much involved in the church.
Emily Guincho [00:47:13] And that's why I say I came at a different stage because I never had that. I never had that imposition. I never had that we must work hard for the church to grow. I came at a phase in their life where they had already backed off a little bit.
John Dehlin [00:47:33] I mean, just. If I can process what I'm hearing. If you look at the status of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in 2026, it's a $300 billion multinational corporation that if it were listed Amongst the Fortune 500, the most wealthy, powerful corporations in the world, it would be in the top 50. It's for sure the wealthiest church in the United States, which is saying a lot. And what I'm hearing is that for it to be able to grow its wealth and its power and its membership, it needed to, number one, do missionary work to many, many countries back in the 1940s and 50s and 60s and 70s. And then it needed to recruit local native members to bear the burden of growing the church in these local countries. And so people like you, Leopoldo, would. Would feel a sense of meaning and purpose, and you would feel special that you were being chosen by the church to help it grow.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:48:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:48:55] Is that right?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:48:56] Exactly.
John Dehlin [00:48:58] And while that probably felt good for you or you wouldn't have done it, what I'm hearing you say is it came at the expense of your children and probably your wife feeling neglected that you were so busy building the church that you were not spending time with them, but also forcing the church's rules and lifestyle on them. Is that what I'm hearing?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:49:28] Exactly. An example, I think that Elder Benson came to Rome Mission and he told me something very interesting and I learned a lot. At certain point, he made a question. President Larker, when you finish the work, I said, well, I keep working till night. So many things to do. And he made a good statement. He said, no, if you don't. If you can't close the day at five, that is not good. You have to stop. You have to take care of your family. But I was so much involved, I couldn't understand at that time. So I went working, going out, training the missionaries, visiting local leaders. I couldn't stop at five, but he told me that.
John Dehlin [00:50:41] Wow. So even though top leaders were sometimes encouraging you to limit your work for the church, you felt so much responsibility that you didn't feel able to.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:50:55] It was my responsibility. I called the branch president. I should instruct them. I couldn't stop at five.
Margi Dehlin [00:51:05] Right.
John Dehlin [00:51:06] Oh, cause you had to call them after hours to talk with them when they weren't working.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:51:11] They were working.
John Dehlin [00:51:12] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:51:13] This makes sense to me in a way where it may be that it was. I was gonna say out of touch, but where. Who was it that told you this? Was it Benson Ezra?
John Dehlin [00:51:26] Ted Benson?
Margi Dehlin [00:51:26] Yeah. And there are mixed messages, I think, in the church this way sometimes, you know, with motherhood too, where it's like, we want to tell you, take care of yourselves or. But when you're given the responsibility, like when, when you're get all the things they're telling you you have to do, you actually can't rest. You can't stop at five. And if he had known like, what the work was like and when you had to actually contact people, maybe he would have seen why that was a challenge. But I'm really relating to that, to this idea of sometimes you get messages of like, oh, but we do like the church, take care of yourself. Of course. But also here are the hundred things that you have to do. And by the way, your children are depending on you to do these things. Their salvation, their place in heaven is dependent on you doing this work. Then you know, it doesn't make. You can't do it. You can't do that thing that they're asking around the rest because they're.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:52:31] Yeah, part of this. The history of Italy, developing the church in that part of the country. And we were at the beginning, as I said, I had to replace the missionaries. They were called as branch presidents. So to me, I took very strongly this position. I said, if the church trust me, why shouldn't I trust my local leaders? So I called people, I called the branch president, and they one day had to make an interview of a lady to prepare to go to the temple for the temple recommend. And didn't know what to say, what to do. So I sat in his side and I suggested the question. You know, that's. It's unbelievable. I suggested to the branch president questions for the lady and receiving the answer and make a suggestion because he couldn't understand how could I do in a different way.
Emily Guincho [00:54:02] The church material was very limited too. We didn't have the Handbook of instructions correct. We had the Book of Mormon, obviously, but I don't think we had a hymn book. For example, when was the first hymn book in Italian?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:54:18] No, it was.
Emily Guincho [00:54:21] So Dioloris translated it. My uncle translated a few Hymns to be sang in Italian because we didn't have any songs.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:30] So you're having to come up with. That's a lot of work because you don't have actually the resources and the structure already you're having to create all the time.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:54:40] It's based all on me. So I couldn't stop at 5.
Emily Guincho [00:54:45] Manuals did not exist.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:47] Wow.
John Dehlin [00:54:49] Hmm. Yeah. Are you feeling. Are you feeling a little bit emotional about that? Do you want to talk more about what you're feeling?
Leopoldo Larcher [00:55:00] Stop for a while.
John Dehlin [00:55:01] Okay. Emily, do you want to share what. I know you. Do you want to speak for your siblings about maybe what they would communicate in addition to what Leopoldo's already shared?
Emily Guincho [00:55:15] I think that my oldest sister is the one that suffered the most, in her words. At least that's what she told me, because she was basically being the guinea pig of the situation. She was growing while they were growing in the church and being subjected to a lot of rules that she didn't understand and never really completely accepted, according to her. So she's the one that I think got it the.
Margi Dehlin [00:55:46] The worse.
Emily Guincho [00:55:49] My other sister's still in the church, so she just feels great about all of it. And my brother, I just found out, as in the last couple years, that he suffered as well, not quite as much as my oldest sister. And he's writing a couple books about his feelings and everything that went down. So maybe when that book comes out, we can read it, figure it out from him.
Margi Dehlin [00:56:12] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [00:56:12] But yeah, I, again, I had a very different experience because I was so. I came so many years after all of them were grown up, basically, so.
Margi Dehlin [00:56:23] Right.
Emily Guincho [00:56:24] Had a different experience than them.
John Dehlin [00:56:26] How. Thank you for sharing that. How many stakes at the peak of the Mormon Church? I assume the Mormon Church is in decline in Italy now like it is in most of the developed world. Do you either of you know the highest number of stakes that came that were formed in Italy by the Mormon Church? And for those who don't know, a stake is about 10 Mormon congregations
The Church's Growth and Decline in Italy
Leopoldo Larcher [00:56:59] or
John Dehlin [00:57:00] wards, as they're called. Do you know how many stakes were in Italy at the peak of the Mormon Church?
Emily Guincho [00:57:07] He should know very well because he had to account for all of them. Good question.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:57:12] Well, sometime I had to complain with the local leaders, the general authorities, about stakes, because the desires to create stakes was very urgent. Sometime we had to stake with 5, 6
Emily Guincho [00:57:39] branches.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:57:40] Branches, small branches, and in order to have a bishop there, in order to have all of this organization, but really there were. The people was overwhelmed of responsibility, not knowing where to Go on. And what to do. So we had 2 stakes in the south, 3 stakes in the middle, and 3, 4 stakes in the north.
John Dehlin [00:58:25] So around 10 or 11 stakes in the entire country. And many of those stakes weren't really proper stakes. They were a few branches that had relatively few members attending.
Leopoldo Larcher [00:58:40] I was involved in this process, and I sat quite often to the leader of the church. It is, for example, I was called divide the missions. What it means by the mission, okay, prepare the number, the total area. Everything was put on some cloud. No numbers, no qualified people, but we had to divide the mission.
Emily Guincho [00:59:23] So what he's saying is that when he was called as a mission president, he was called for the whole entire southern Italy. And so he was stationed in Rome for two years. And the mission covered basically from Rome all the way to Sicily and Malta. Malta. And two years into the mission, they told them, you have to divide the mission, you have to split it, because there was growth. And so he's telling you this is what he had to go through in order to separate the Rome and the Catania mission. So when the split did happen, he moved to the Catania mission, Sicily mission. And that's where I was born and had to oversee the split and the numbers and calculating which branch to move and which stake to fit in one mission versus the other. But the problem is that the boundaries of each branch or each stake or district, because they didn't have enough numbers to make stakes, so they called them districts, were so spread out that the members couldn't even do home teaching or home, whatever it was called, I can't remember.
John Dehlin [01:00:37] Or probably attend church because the chapels would have been so far away if
Emily Guincho [01:00:41] they had a chapel.
Margi Dehlin [01:00:42] Yes.
Emily Guincho [01:00:42] Because most often than not, it was a rented place.
Margi Dehlin [01:00:45] Right.
Emily Guincho [01:00:46] So he's telling all of this that to create a picture of it was really, really hard to make it happen. But on paper, you just move people here and there. Excuse me. People have to have the means to drive, to travel that far, to go visit so and so. Or to just go to church.
Margi Dehlin [01:01:06] Do you know what I'm noticing is it's almost like taking the Utah template of the church and trying to just sort of transplant that over to Italy. And you're the ones living with the reality of, like, this is not working.
Emily Guincho [01:01:21] Correct.
Margi Dehlin [01:01:22] What it's asking of members and the lived experience, it's not translating well.
Emily Guincho [01:01:27] Right, got it.
John Dehlin [01:01:32] Wow. Okay. Let me ask you a question from a different angle. The average Mormon family in Italy, were they different than the average Italian family? Were they happier? Were they Healthier, Were they better? Were they wealthier? Were they more educated? Did the church end up creating better families in Italy when you were there?
Leopoldo Larcher [01:02:05] Good question. I would say we have to make a difference between first generation, second generation and third generation. So the second generation is much better prepared. Young people like to go out Italy, they want to learn how the church is living here and there. And the third generation is even better. Even for education, for example, first generation was dumb, stupid, ignorant, ignorant. And with that culture, it was not important. Second generation, much better.
Emily Guincho [01:03:09] So I think what he's trying to say is that there was a big push into education from the church. And so they would instruct parents of his first generation, as he calls it in the church, to push their kids to get more education, to get higher level of education. So that's what he's referring to. For me, I think overall, the church tends to find those that are already good people. And in a way there wasn't that much difference for the life of those people that actually joined the church. Maybe they stopped drinking coffee because coffee is a major part of an Italian life.
John Dehlin [01:03:51] Isn't smoking pretty common in Italy?
Emily Guincho [01:03:54] Yes, that's true.
John Dehlin [01:03:54] So maybe they would stop smoking.
Emily Guincho [01:03:56] Yes, or maybe the wine that, you know, everybody has wine with their meals, even kids. But I don't think it's an addiction that much there in Italy. Yes, because it snows, so you can't drink until. I mean, obviously they have wine with their pasta every day when they're three and four years old, so it's not as hard to come back. And again, those people that were searching for the church or searching for change, they were already trying to change their lives to begin with. And so giving up wine, oh, no big deal.
Marriage, Roles, and Being Italian Mormon Pioneers
Margi Dehlin [01:04:32] You know, I have a question with regard to your wife. I'm curious about how with the idea of roles within the church, you being kind of breadwinner and her kind of home with the kids, was that true? Were those roles true for you in Italy? That's my first question.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:05:04] Si, capito, bene
Emily Guincho [01:05:08] della del marito, familia della chiesa.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:05:15] Well, it is simple. My wife was so. Well, this is why I selected her. It was simple. She was doing all I was waiting her to do. So her responsibility was to raise the children, to control the money, because that was very. At that time it was important and to help the kids grow. Because I was always out, even at the end. I had to take the train early in the morning at 7:00 o', clock, going to work in Milan, one hour away. And then Late at night, back. And the kids, where are the kids? Sleeping out. I couldn't care about them. I couldn't. Well, I was ordering my wife to take care of the children and they did a good job. She did a good job.
Margi Dehlin [01:06:37] Okay, so my question around that, my follow up question is, when you think of her now, do you have memories of her? Like, do you feel like that was easy for her, natural for her? How did she feel about you being gone, building the church at this time? Fully supportive sometimes. Did she say this is really hard or what are your memories of, if you have any of her experience?
Leopoldo Larcher [01:07:11] My wife never thought or never said, I'm tired. Never. She was a perfect person. This is why I selected her. But after, when all the kids were gone, she started to complain. And maybe this is her culture, I don't know. But she never said anything. She accepted the church, she accepted all my problems. She accepted to move twice. And now when I think that I moved twice. So the kids had to change school companion. My, my son complained with me. Now she's 50. So he has a right to. To complain with me. Something he couldn't say any word before.
Margi Dehlin [01:08:23] Yeah.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:08:24] Because of our culture, the father is the father, kids are the kids. But at the end, I would say two years before the ship passed away, she started to complain. And I saw,
Emily Guincho [01:08:54] Okay. She started reading and learning from the Internet about things, not just for. About the Mormon church, but in general about churches. And she started studying and digging and finding ugly in all the churches, basically. And she would share with him. And at one point she told him, she woke up one day and she said, do not pay my part of tithing anymore. I don't want you to pay. You can pay whatever your part is, but do not pay my part.
John Dehlin [01:09:28] How old were you when this happened, Emily?
Emily Guincho [01:09:29] Oh, this was three years ago. Four years ago. About two years before passing. She just woke up one day and told him that.
John Dehlin [01:09:41] So she lost her Mormon faith before me, before.
Emily Guincho [01:09:45] And him.
John Dehlin [01:09:45] Either of you.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:09:46] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:09:47] And before she passed away.
Emily Guincho [01:09:48] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:09:51] This is just a few years ago,
Leopoldo Larcher [01:09:52] not the last time, because she was studying Bible, Book of Mormon, Jehovah Witnesses.
Emily Guincho [01:10:01] She was studying everything.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:10:02] She studied a lot of books and then came at the end saying, you know, all the study I have made convince me that all the churches, all the churches are there just to make money. They don't care too much about life. Probably. She put together all the problems she had in her life with moving from one place to another to moving the kids. And she at the end was full and had to explode in that way.
Margi Dehlin [01:10:49] Right.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:10:50] I want you to stop to pay my title.
Margi Dehlin [01:10:53] Yeah. I mean, I think that's really interesting with regard to the impact of being. I'll just say overburdened. Like having such a busy life, having so much responsibility is. It doesn't. Sometimes it doesn't allow for. Well, let's just say it's harder to reflect and to connect with yourself. Sounds like she had. Most of you were grown and gone, and she had a moment where there was space for her to read and reflect and get information. So that's kind of. That's an interesting overlay to the story.
John Dehlin [01:11:38] Did you want to say something about your mom, Emily? Were you about to say something?
Margi Dehlin [01:11:41] Yes.
Emily Guincho [01:11:44] She lost her dad when she was 2. So she grew up with her brother and her mother. And her generation, particularly coming from the part of Italy that she came from, was very much like he was saying, culturally, the father is the head of the family and she did not have one. So in my opinion, when she met the church and the piece of the puzzle that was missing was put back in place. Yes, the father is the head of the family. She fully embraced the 60s mentality where you don't ever show any problems. Your husband comes home from work and the house has to be meticulously clean, the kids need to be bathed, and nobody screaming, everybody quiet. So she fully embraced that. And then when you transfer that, going to church where everything is perfect, everybody's hair's done, everybody's sitting quietly, no kids allowed to even turn their necks. I still remember my mother telling me, we are talking after the meeting is over. You do not go to the bathroom while the meeting is going on. You take a bathroom break before or after. It was so meticulously controlled by her. And like he was saying, she was in charge of all of us. By the time she got to me, she had three kids on her back already. So she was a pro. So she was very much brought up as, do not show any signs of weakness. Do not show any signs of tiredness,
Margi Dehlin [01:13:20] or
Emily Guincho [01:13:23] if you're sick, suck it up. You can't show any signs of sickness. You have a handkerchief, put it away. Can't be seen. So my dad never had to worry about that because she had it all under control. And that can be very heavy.
Margi Dehlin [01:13:38] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [01:13:40] I was going to say, never saying I'm tired might not always be the best thing.
Margi Dehlin [01:13:46] No, that disconnect from your lived experience from your body and what it needs.
Emily Guincho [01:13:51] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [01:13:53] Okay. Before Emily, we maybe hear a bit about your Story. I'll ask one, at least one more question. I was interviewing a man from Kenya who's a doctor. So he grew up in Kenya, joined the church in Kenya, in Africa, came to byu, Idaho, BYU Provo, ended up going to the University of Utah, became a doctor, moved to like South Dakota or whatever, North Dakota to become a doctor, had a dream of a Mormon life and then lost his faith and no longer attends. But I asked him, are you glad that the church is in Kenya now so that other people can have an experience like you? And he said, even though I don't believe the church is true, I'm glad the church is in Kenya because they're helping people live a better life, get an education and live happy, healthy lives. I want to ask you, Leopoldo, do you feel glad that the Mormon Church today is in Italy for the same reasons or not?
Leopoldo Larcher [01:15:09] I would say yes. As I explained before, the second generation took advantage of this culturally. They were improved and had the desire to improve. Between my generation, the first generation, there is a gap. Incredible. I believe that the church as given, but I am talking about generation in the church, not outside, because outside I don't know, but in the church. I saw the first generation really improve the quality or the desire to improve their ability. And they moved around, they went out, they studied. And I believe that the church has the, I would say the responsibility, but it's not a responsibility that gave the imprint to move ahead, to do something better than before.
John Dehlin [01:16:25] Interesting.
Margi Dehlin [01:16:26] I have a little follow up with regard. Sorry about your wife. Mother. You were mentioning that culturally where she came from, you know, she was kind of taught to obey and kind of take on this mantle of I've got it. We don't show like, if we show kind of that things are hard, it's a weakness. So we kind of, I'm great, never been better. Perfection, right? I would say the. In America, this is just a generalization within the church. I feel like the higher the position in the church, particularly for the man, but I think it could be maybe for the woman too, the more pressure, maybe to kind of be perfect, to show that you are living the true form of the gospel. And there's this pressure to have it look easy. It's easy for us. Right? Because if it looks hard, then it's kind of like you're probably not doing something. It's probably in your character. I'm curious if you felt that, if you feel like that might have been an extra layer for your wife or your mom, that she might have not only had it culturally, but maybe also felt. I'm wondering if it translated to Italy, that aspect of the church.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:18:11] No, no, no, no. My wife was a perfect woman. She didn't want to find, to learn to understand more about her life. She didn't care about my responsibility. She had the family, she had the kids to care about.
Emily Guincho [01:18:45] She would have never said anything to him, but she would communicate to me how hard it was. She did mention how it was very much social, cultural, and spiritual pressure.
Margi Dehlin [01:19:00] I see.
Emily Guincho [01:19:01] To have all the kids be good and to always show up in a certain way and to be always looking put together.
Margi Dehlin [01:19:10] So it was felt. That aspect from what you experienced, it did kind of translate to your Italy experience. Just curious, because we're kind of comparing. Yeah. Some of the differences there.
Emily Guincho [01:19:20] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:19:21] And I guess before we transition to kind of what caused your family to leave the church, I just want to know that. That the Mormon Church. One thing the Mormon Church does very well, I think, is to honor its pioneers. And whether that's the pioneers that joined the church in the early 1800s and then crossed the plains as pioneers to establish Utah and Idaho and Arizona, or the early families in various countries across the world who helped plant the stakes and the wards in the districts and the missions and grow the church for the benefit of the second and the third generation. The church seems to do a really good job of honoring those pioneers. And I think, because I think the church leaders probably believe that once the Mormon Church gets established in any country, the second, third, and fourth generations benefit. And so the church would honor you as a pioneer in Italy because of your efforts and your wife's efforts and your family's collective sacrifice. Other future generations of Italian Mormons benefited from the real sacrifices of you and your wife and your family.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:20:49] I don't know, but probably, yes.
Emily Guincho [01:20:53] Yeah, I do know.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:20:55] I am not in position to say
Emily Guincho [01:20:57] everywhere you go in Italy to visit any branch or whatever. Oh, brother Larker. He's like a superstar.
John Dehlin [01:21:05] So you are honored in Italy, Southern Italy across the country.
Margi Dehlin [01:21:10] Yes.
Emily Guincho [01:21:10] Southern Italy specifically. But in north and part. Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:21:16] And what was your wife's name? Do you feel comfortable saying it, or would you rather not? We're honoring you and it feels like it's a partnership as well. But I only want to do it if you're comfortable.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:21:38] Her name was Maria. So even the name is simple. Said so much. She was aware that I was glorious. I like to be the first. And that's it. No. And she didn't complain because she was the wife or the Number one. No, I don't know if this is the concept.
Emily Guincho [01:22:21] He was very proud and she knew that he was proud, but she didn't care because in a way she was also proud to be the wife of the number one in Italy. So it kind of you prideful people.
John Dehlin [01:22:38] Okay, well, in that sense, I'm glad you're honored. I'm glad you and your family and your wife are honored in Italy for the sacrifices you made for the Mormon Italian families that came after you. That's special.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:22:57] Thank you.
Emily Guincho [01:23:01] Nothing to be taken from the people of Valedaosta. The Valdez group joined the church before World War I, even from Lorenzo Snow when he came and did his little thing anyway.
Margi Dehlin [01:23:16] Right, right.
Emily Guincho [01:23:17] They all went to Utah, so nothing was left for us. We had to start from scratch.
Emily's Mormon Upbringing in Italy
John Dehlin [01:23:22] Okay, well Emily, let's, let's transition a bit to your story and Leopoldo, you can speak up whenever. What, what do you want to say about your Mormon upbringing both in Italy and then your journey here to the United States?
Emily Guincho [01:23:38] Well, as I was saying, I was born at the end of my parents mission in sicily.
John Dehlin [01:23:46] What year?
Emily Guincho [01:23:47] 1978. June. And my name is kind of special because my parents went to the assistants and asked for a list of names, American names, because they wanted to remember their mission through me. They called me their mission gift. And so they gave them this list and my parents chose Emily and Susan as a middle name.
John Dehlin [01:24:14] Okay.
Emily Guincho [01:24:15] So I'm the only one in my family with the weird American name and everybody else has Italian names.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:24:22] Okay, sorry.
John Dehlin [01:24:23] Emily's not a common name in Italy for a woman.
Emily Guincho [01:24:27] It didn't used to be.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:24:28] Now there is Emilia.
Emily Guincho [01:24:30] I met quite several. Emily.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:24:33] Yeah, yeah.
Emily Guincho [01:24:34] Recent years.
John Dehlin [01:24:36] And what was it like for you growing up Mormon in Italy?
Emily Guincho [01:24:38] I was different. For real. It was, I was always the only Mormon kid in any school I went to up until, until high school where there were two of us over 2,000 kids. But I remember going to church feeling like it was an extension of my family and feeling jealous of newcomers. I did not like when people were joining the church because who are these people intruding my family? But I also remember having a lot of missionaries coming for Christmas, Easter, any day really. We used to have up to eight missionaries, so four couples at the time. I remember our branch went from being a small little branch to a ward and then splitting the ward into two branches and then potentially two wards back to a one word ward. However, when I say ward, as we were talking about numbers award here in Utah or Arizona would be 3, 400 people in Italy. In my hometown, it would be maybe 60 people, 80 when it was like a Christmas or Easter. My brother actually became a bishop when we became a ward. But so, yeah, it was definitely different than any Utah, Arizona, Idaho branches or wards. Reading scriptures was part of our morning routine family meetings. We tried to do them as much as possible. Always busy with callings, never saying, rejecting a calling. And seminary was not understood by me in any way, shape or form. I did not like it. We would have these pamphlets that were translated from English and we'd have to fill them up. I never read the scriptures before. I would just read the passages that were highlighted. I did not read back to back or the entire Book of Mormon until my mission, basically. So scriptures were some part of our family life, but not. We have to read the Scriptures or. What does the scripture mean? It was just. You read, done. Put it away. I do remember talking in school once about the Mormon Church, just because it was me and Jehovah's Witness kid in the class. And so everybody else was Catholic, were curious. Let's have them talk. I don't remember what I said. It was probably nothing very impressive because I didn't understand very much what I was living. I felt different, mostly because my family was huge for an Italian family. All of my schoolmates had maybe one sibling. I had three. Most of them were the only child. So in that sense I felt different.
John Dehlin [01:28:04] But.
Emily Guincho [01:28:04] But other than the fact that I wasn't drinking, smoking or tea or coffee, whatever assumption. We were just kids growing up and that was it.
John Dehlin [01:28:21] What was it like to be Italian? Almost everyone's Catholic and you're a member of an American church that maybe people. Did people view it as a cult in Italy?
Emily Guincho [01:28:37] No, no.
John Dehlin [01:28:37] They just didn't know anything about it at all.
Emily Guincho [01:28:39] Correct.
John Dehlin [01:28:40] Okay.
Emily Guincho [01:28:40] They didn't even know that it was American.
John Dehlin [01:28:42] Okay.
Emily Guincho [01:28:42] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:28:43] Okay.
Emily Guincho [01:28:44] It was just weird. But just like the Jehovah's Witnesses. Just weird, different.
John Dehlin [01:28:48] Did you feel a connection to the United States that maybe your peers didn't feel?
Emily Guincho [01:28:56] I wouldn't say a connection, but there were these American missionaries that would show up and they were cool, they were fun, they were handsome, they were smart, tall, tall, of course, fair, handsome. But no, A connection with America? Not so much. Just the fact that we had these cool kids that would be part of our religion.
John Dehlin [01:29:24] Okay. And like, was. There was, like graduating from high school and going to byu. Was that a thing?
Emily Guincho [01:29:33] No, no, not at my time. The next generation after me. Yes, absolutely. Became the thing. It became the thing.
Emily's Teenage Years and Young Women's Experience
Margi Dehlin [01:29:42] When you were a teen, what did you want for yourself? Like, were you. Did you want to have a job or were you very much a career, do you mean? Yeah, a career. Like what. What were your dreams for yourself as a teen?
Emily Guincho [01:29:59] They were very much influenced by the church, and it was to get married and have a family.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:05] Okay.
Emily Guincho [01:30:06] Yeah, absolutely. Not having a job, not because I didn't want it. At one point, I did want something, but because the church said, you have to. You're gonna influence your children. You're gonna have to be at home.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:24] Right.
Emily Guincho [01:30:25] And my dad always said, you do not work. Your first job is to raise your.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:30:31] Your kids between mother and husband.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:36] Right?
Emily Guincho [01:30:37] No, no, I'm talking about me. Okay, Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:41] And was that different than your peers with where you were living, or was that also. I'm curious if in that way you were different or not really different, what you wanted for this.
Emily Guincho [01:30:53] I was different. Out of all of my schoolmates, three got married. Out of 23 schoolmates in Italy is a little different. You just stay with the same group of people for five years. Oh, how about that? So I had 30 kids, basically as schoolmates that we stayed together for five years.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:10] So you get to know them quite well.
Emily Guincho [01:31:12] Oh, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:13] Wow.
Emily Guincho [01:31:13] And only three got married, so. Including me.
John Dehlin [01:31:17] When you say got married, ever had families?
Emily Guincho [01:31:20] Yes. Oh, ever, Ever.
John Dehlin [01:31:21] To date.
Emily Guincho [01:31:22] To date, most of them are in a relationship, but not married and definitely not.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:27] So very different.
John Dehlin [01:31:29] Yeah, very culturally, very Italians getting married
Emily Guincho [01:31:32] and having kids because it's too expensive.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:35] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [01:31:35] They preferred to have dogs and cats.
John Dehlin [01:31:37] Interesting.
Emily Guincho [01:31:38] Yeah, interesting. And to travel, because traveling became a thing after my generation. And so everybody just decided to explore the war world. And you don't get to do that when you have kids and family and jobs. Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:56] Okay. Another question. As a teen, so did you experience the young women's program?
Emily Guincho [01:32:01] I did very differently than anywhere in Utah, Idaho and Arizona. I was one of three young women at first, and then two graduated. So it was their last year, and it was my first year. And then a young woman joined the church, so it was her and I, same age for the rest. Like the last three years, just the two of us. Very boring. Very, very, very boring.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:27] Very focused.
Emily Guincho [01:32:28] Very focused. The lessons were so over our heads all the time. And we did the. We got the. Sorry, the medallions, the whatever program. I don't know how I got the medallion because I don't remember doing anything, but they gave it to us anyway. It was like, here's your star. So very, very laid back.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:49] But
Emily Guincho [01:32:51] they tried, you Know, they tried to do what they could with what they had. Again, the material was not there. I mean, probably not as much knowledge and information that, you know, leaders have here in Utah, Arizona and Idaho.
Margi Dehlin [01:33:09] That's right. Interesting.
Emily Guincho [01:33:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:33:11] Did you feel emotionally connected to God or Jesus or the Book of Mormon or the prophet, I don't know, Gordon B. Hinckley or the prophet Joseph Smith? As a teenager, did you feel a connection to any of those things?
Emily Guincho [01:33:27] Nope.
John Dehlin [01:33:28] No.
Emily Guincho [01:33:28] No.
John Dehlin [01:33:28] Yeah. Why not?
Emily Guincho [01:33:31] I don't know. It was never imprinted on me as to. You have to have a testimony. That all came when I decided to go on a mission. And I decided when I went to BYU first and I saw all the other kids at byu.
John Dehlin [01:33:46] What year did you go to byu?
Emily Guincho [01:33:48] So I kind of messed up because I didn't speak English. So I came to Utah, to byu, to the English Language center for a summer for six weeks, and I just learned English. And then I went back home and decided to try BYU. That was 1999. Wow. I think it was okay. And then I did a semester at byu and I got to see all the returned missionaries, sister missionaries that were in my apartment, and I got to really dive into family home evening. Even though it was just the group of students, it was there where I really got fired up in the church and gained my testimony and decided to just, yes, I'm going to be a missionary, to spread the word.
John Dehlin [01:34:31] And I can't imagine attending university, not speaking the language of the university. Like, kids struggle in college enough. How in the world did you survive with only four months of English?
Emily Guincho [01:34:47] You know, I don't know. Well, the first six weeks when I was learning English, I remember crying just about every day. It was really hard. But it was over the summer, and I had a few friends that were from Italy as well, so we just coasted a little bit.
Margi Dehlin [01:35:05] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [01:35:06] And then because of his mission and service, there was this family nearby living in Provo that spoke Italian. And every once in a while they would, you know, have me over for dinner. And it was nice to just have some sort of family support, even though I was thrown in the middle of Utah culture.
Margi Dehlin [01:35:25] Yeah, that's really interesting.
Emily Guincho [01:35:27] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:35:27] I wanted to just now loop back to your relationship with your dad because you were kind of talking in a way for your siblings about what they might feel. What was your experience of your dad as particularly, let's say, in kind of teen years. Let's say teen years. Was he around more? Was. Did you feel like it didn't sound like it was Particularly rigid in your home. But what was your experience, particularly with your dad's travel and. Yeah,
John Dehlin [01:36:03] so
Emily Guincho [01:36:05] actually I liked it when he was traveling, when he would come to the States and travel around, because he would bring me back marshmallows. That's the one thing that I do like.
Margi Dehlin [01:36:14] Oh, you loved marshmallows.
Emily Guincho [01:36:16] I did, I did. But in my teen years, he still was gone most of the day to go to Milan. So he was gone from like 7:30am to 7:30pm the time that we would spend together was in the summer, and we would go to the beach for like two or three weeks. And one summer particularly, he had to visit chapels along the whole country, basically. So we spent. I think it was three months. It must have been. It was the whole summer, basically. And we stopped at every church building that he overseed, which were all of them that he had scheduled maintenance or just to be able to have eyes on the buildings. And we just did the whole coast and camped all over Italy. That was fun.
Margi Dehlin [01:37:09] So that was memorable at that particular time.
Emily Guincho [01:37:12] And that one young woman that was the only one with me came along with us. So I had a friend because my siblings were all married at that time, so.
Margi Dehlin [01:37:21] Yeah, that's right. In your home, was it a very strict home? Did you experience it as, like, having a lot of rules? Yes, basically.
Emily Guincho [01:37:35] My mother was very strict, so I did have a lot of rules. And I did have restrictions, I guess, which is fine. Compared to my peers, it felt a little heavy. They didn't have curfew that I had. Obviously they could go and party. I didn't really want to go party, but I wasn't really allowed to. I couldn't wear what I wanted to wear. So, yeah, you know, basic rules of keeping the kids in line. But I wasn't a wild one anyway, so.
Margi Dehlin [01:38:14] Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Emily's Mission and Time at BYU
John Dehlin [01:38:19] So being a BYU made you want to serve a mission, is that right?
Emily Guincho [01:38:23] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:38:24] Let's talk about really quick, your mission call and your mission service.
Emily Guincho [01:38:27] Yes. So I had a roommate that worked at the MTC in the cafeteria, I believe, and she also put her papers in. Her name was Emily, too. And she was telling me, oh, you are going to receive your mission call on this day. Because that's when they processed the papers and she received her mission call the day before, and she was like, this is weird. So that means everything is messed up. So I wasn't waiting for a mission call for another week, and I got it then the very next day to the same mission that she was going to, which was The New York Rochester Mission, the historical sites.
Margi Dehlin [01:39:04] Yes.
Emily Guincho [01:39:05] And we were companions in the MTC and in the field.
Margi Dehlin [01:39:07] Wow.
Emily Guincho [01:39:08] How bizarre is that?
Margi Dehlin [01:39:09] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:39:10] So how'd you like your mission?
Emily Guincho [01:39:12] I loved it. It was obviously that's where it all started.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:39:15] So I was like, oh, so Palmyra
John Dehlin [01:39:17] was part of your mission?
Emily Guincho [01:39:18] Yes, yes.
John Dehlin [01:39:19] Did you work in a visitor center there?
Emily Guincho [01:39:21] I was a visitor center sister, yes.
John Dehlin [01:39:23] For English and Italian speaking visitors?
Emily Guincho [01:39:26] Nobody came from Italy, but yes, I would have been able to.
Margi Dehlin [01:39:30] You were well equipped for that.
Emily Guincho [01:39:32] Was that situation
John Dehlin [01:39:35] okay? Okay. So you loved your mission and yes, when I talked about developing a relationship with God and Jesus and Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and the prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, did that happen on your mission?
Emily Guincho [01:39:49] Absolutely. Actually, right before I decided to go, I started studying and preparing, and then when I got my mission call, I memorized Standard of Truth and all the other things that they wanted us to memorize and working really hard because that back then is when we were still memorizing the discussions. So I remember trying to memorize my first discussion by the time I was in the field on the mtc. But then they threw all these scripts to memorize for all the historical sites. I'm like, oh, no. But I gotta sort of. I had to memorize a lot of stuff.
John Dehlin [01:40:28] And do you feel like serving a mission in New York really maybe solidified a connection between you and the prophet Joseph Smith?
Emily Guincho [01:40:36] Yes. I had no idea about any thing that happened. I knew that he was the founder of the church, but I did not know any of the history behind it or that came from. I just knew that he was the founder of the church and he saw God and Jesus Christ and that was it.
John Dehlin [01:40:56] Okay. Any big things happen on your mission that are worth mentioning or just overall that it was a great experience?
Emily Guincho [01:41:04] The very first day that our mission president took us to the sacred grove, he took all of us young new missionaries and said very dramatically, now, this is where it all started. We don't know exactly where, but in these woods, this is where it happened.
John Dehlin [01:41:23] Where Joseph Smith saw, Claimed to have seen God and Jesus.
Emily Guincho [01:41:27] Correct. And even though you weren't born yet, we were all up in heaven cheering for him to push through the darkness and to receive what he did receive. And we were so excited. Now today's the day that you are here and you get to share with everybody that experience. And I was pumped up. I was like, oh, yes, I'm gonna shout it. You know, I'm gonna be declaring it. This is where it happened. You guys that live near here are the luckiest ones. This is where the spirit was the strongest. And so I was really dipped in the spirit, Right? Yep.
John Dehlin [01:42:10] So you're anything else from your mission or just, you know, by the time you end, you were, you were in it to win it?
Emily Guincho [01:42:17] Yes, yes. I was digging through everything that I could dig in to memorize all the, the things that I could, to give the best tours and to just, you know, and, and I couldn't wait to go and be out to. Because tours are one thing, you know, the people are coming to you. But I wanted to be out there and really go and talk to people about, you know, the gospel. And I remember just being upset that I couldn't be out there to knock on doors and just trying to get members to come with us because once we leave, they need to have. The investigators, need to have someone to stay close to. They can't just get close to the missionaries because then we're gone. Right. But if they become close to the members, then they have some sort of a friendship to stay with, you know, in the church. So, yes, I really wanted to. To just go out and get them.
John Dehlin [01:43:16] Did any of your other siblings serve missions?
Emily Guincho [01:43:20] My brother. Oh, I served a mini mission too, but my brother served a mini mission. They're a big thing in Italy. They were where teenagers, like 17, 18 year olds would go for the summer or for a few months in the summer.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:43:33] Oh, and then went
John Dehlin [01:43:38] university.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:43:39] Soldier? No, military.
Emily Guincho [01:43:44] So my brother served a mini mission and then he said that he had to go serve do military service, which was mandatory back then. It's not.
Margi Dehlin [01:43:53] How about that?
Emily Guincho [01:43:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:43:54] So you were the only of your siblings to serve a full time mission.
Emily Guincho [01:43:57] Correct.
John Dehlin [01:43:59] And Leopoldo, how did you feel that Emily served a full time mission?
Leopoldo Larcher [01:44:04] I shouldn't say that, but she's the best we have.
John Dehlin [01:44:09] Yeah, you shouldn't say that for sure. But you were proud of her.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:44:15] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:44:15] Serving a mission, I am proud of
Leopoldo Larcher [01:44:17] all my sons and daughter. But for the mission, I was very happy. I loved what she did in her life, including who she marries, including Craig.
John Dehlin [01:44:39] Okay. Okay, that's nice. So you were making your parents proud and you were having a great experience.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:44:48] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [01:44:48] Is there anything that stood out? I mean, this is also your experience with America. Did anything stand out with regard to like BYU or your, your experience of America that you remember where it was just sort of notable or, oh, this is.
John Dehlin [01:45:06] Or the food Interesting.
Margi Dehlin [01:45:08] Or, oh, this is. Anything that made an impact? Yes.
Emily Guincho [01:45:14] There isn't really a culture in Italy. There wasn't Maybe there's now of dorm living or living in with a group of girls. That was different. That was very different. And the food. Yes, that's, you know, Italian food. A little bit hard. My first cultural shock.
John Dehlin [01:45:37] Wait, are you saying. Let's slow down. Are you saying Italian food's better than American food?
Emily Guincho [01:45:41] Did I say that?
John Dehlin [01:45:42] Did you? Did you imply that?
Emily Guincho [01:45:45] Read the fine print a little bit. So my first cultural shock was actually tomato. See, Okay. I about died. It was on a mission and somebody had offered us tomato soup, and I think it was crackers. And I. I think I became the same color of the soup. So it was really, really traumatizing. But, yep, I managed somehow.
John Dehlin [01:46:09] Wow. I've never heard of tomato soup being characterized as a problem, have you?
Margi Dehlin [01:46:13] Well, I can imagine just the processed version compared. Like how sweet and verse or brand.
John Dehlin [01:46:21] I don't know.
Emily Guincho [01:46:22] I am challenging you to today to go home, open a bottle of ketchup and try and down it as is, because that's what I felt. Yeah, okay. Don't do that. Don't do that.
John Dehlin [01:46:36] Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I was raised on it, so I love, like, grilled cheese sandwiches and tomato soup, but.
Emily Guincho [01:46:44] Oh, that's what it was. Grilled cheese sandwiches, not crackers.
Margi Dehlin [01:46:47] Because then you dip it in the.
Emily Guincho [01:46:49] Yes, yes, yes.
John Dehlin [01:46:50] I think that's still good stuff. I don't know. But for you it felt weird. Okay.
Emily Guincho [01:46:55] I haven't had that since.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:46:59] All right.
John Dehlin [01:47:00] So the food was sometimes weird. Not as good.
Emily Guincho [01:47:03] Yes. But on the mission, it was really humbling to see how the members were so kind and even non members, to be honest. And, like, they didn't have much and they would just share with us what they had and they didn't have to. But you know how this piece of paper goes around in release society and sign up to feed the missionaries. And here's this poor sister that already doesn't have a whole lot of money, and she's single and older or whatever, and she's, you know, trying her best to put together a meal for us. And it was really humbling to be sitting with those people and just partake of the little that they had.
Margi Dehlin [01:47:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:47:52] Were you all able to baptize some people, bring them into the church? And were you able to teach any Italian families?
Emily Guincho [01:47:58] Okay.
John Dehlin [01:47:58] Or people? Either one.
Emily Guincho [01:48:01] First question is, was I able to baptize? No.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:48:04] Because I didn't have the priesthood or facilitate baptism.
Emily Guincho [01:48:10] We did teach a bunch of people, individuals and families. I did not see anybody that I started teaching get baptized. I Did pick up a family that was baptized after I started teaching, but not very many. Yes.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:48:40] Yeah. Okay.
Emily Guincho [01:48:42] He wants to talk about something in the future, so. Okay, Okay. I did teach a. An Italian kid. He was an exchange student. He was in high school and was not interested at all. But the family that he was staying with was Mormon. And so they were like, oh, here's an Italian sister. Why don't you talk to her? And not interested at all. Then I think I taught him a third of the first discussion, and he was like, yeah, no. So that didn't go very well. But
John Dehlin [01:49:17] one of the things I hear many ex Mormons express is they really wish they could find a way to give their children, their adult children, an equivalent to a Mormon mission experience. Do you look back fondly that your Mormon mission experience was enriching to your life? Whether it's living in a foreign country or learning another language or just having that adventure? Of all the things you had to do to be a Mormon missionary, do you think of that as overall enriching your life?
Emily Guincho [01:49:50] I believe it was. I believe it was very stretchy, very challenging. And I do believe that it is a good experience for now, teenagers, because they lowered the age. But you can experience that in other ways as well. Some join the armies. I don't know that that's necessarily comparable. Some go on missions in South Africa or Asia, or they go teach English to other countries. I feel that there are other ways to have the same kind of experience, and I think I'd prefer those other experiences over the Mormon mission. Because you're so focused on what you're feeling, trying to understand what the other people you're talking to are feeling versus what am I learning? How am I growing? How am I helping the people in front of me growing in life? Not just spiritually, because I think that there's such a focus, and
Margi Dehlin [01:50:55] it.
Emily Guincho [01:50:55] I don't want to say it's like sales people, but it feels like you're a salesperson when you're on a mission, trying to kind of convince people that what you have is better than what they have. Because at the time, I thought I had something better and more than what they had, and it felt good to try and share with them.
John Dehlin [01:51:17] So did you ever hear those teachings about the Catholic Church being the great
Emily Guincho [01:51:22] abominable church at byu? Yes, I remember reading the Book of Mormon and all of a sudden opening up the part where it says, you know, all the red velvets and all the luxury fine apparel. Fine apparel, yes, that one. And yes, of course, it's the Catholic Church. And of course, it was told in my apartment and stuff with my roommates. And they would ask me, so how is it the church, the Catholic Church in Italy? I'm like, I don't know. I've never been in. Like, I've been to a church, but I don't go to mass or anything. But in my mind, it just. My mind just blew up when I put the two and two together. And I was like, whoa, yeah, they are the devil, you know, whatever.
Margi Dehlin [01:52:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:52:13] Okay, so you finished. You served a year and a half from what age?
Emily Guincho [01:52:17] 21 or I turned 22 at the MTC, so I was an old geese.
John Dehlin [01:52:22] So you were 23 and a half when you finished your mission. Okay, and that was around what year?
Emily Guincho [01:52:28] 2000 to 2001. I came back right after 9 11. Oh, I was in New York.
John Dehlin [01:52:33] So you were in New York during 9 11?
Emily Guincho [01:52:35] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:52:36] Okay.
Emily Guincho [01:52:36] I understood nothing because we had access to nothing.
John Dehlin [01:52:40] You couldn't watch the news or read the newspaper?
Emily Guincho [01:52:42] No. So I was at the Grandin Building when it happened in Palmyra. The Grandin Building is where the first copies of the bookmark were printed.
John Dehlin [01:52:52] The printing press.
Margi Dehlin [01:52:53] Correct.
Emily Guincho [01:52:54] And the senior couple that was there with us were frantic. They were like listening to the radio in their car and they were just like spewing out words that I didn't understand.
Margi Dehlin [01:53:08] Attack.
Emily Guincho [01:53:10] Twin towers. I had been on the Twin Towers, but I didn't remember what they were. And terrorism, like, I don't know. I got nothing. Then the rest of the day we were tracking because we didn't know any better. And we would see images on the people's TVs and smoking building. Smoking buildings and still not understanding anything. I didn't even know where those buildings were. My companion, she. She knew exactly what they were and she tried to tell me, but she was more concerned about what was going on. So she was trying to get information from TVs and people, and I found out much later what was going down. So
John Dehlin [01:53:57] as a Mormon missionary in Palmyra area, you would have been at least sometimes in charge of teaching others about early morning Mormon Church history, is that right?
Emily Guincho [01:54:08] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:54:08] Okay, can we do a little micro quiz really quick because I'm curious what you were and weren't taught about early Mormon Church history. All right.
Emily Guincho [01:54:16] Okay.
John Dehlin [01:54:17] So were you taught up through the time you served your mission that Joseph Smith had been a treasure digger searching for buried treasure illegally with a peep stone and a hat kind of thing? Were you ever taught that?
Emily Guincho [01:54:31] I was not taught that. No, but I did hear it from the locals.
John Dehlin [01:54:35] Okay, and what did you think about that when you heard it from the locals?
Emily Guincho [01:54:40] Misinformation.
John Dehlin [01:54:41] That it was lies.
Emily Guincho [01:54:42] They didn't know. Yeah, they didn't know any better. It was the anti stuff that they had heard that was coming out of their mouths.
John Dehlin [01:54:50] And what had you been taught about how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon?
Emily Guincho [01:54:55] That he received inspiration and that he had the plates in front of him and a sheet that would divide the person that was actually being the scribe from him because they were not allowed to see the plates, whoever that was, whether it was Emma or Oliver, and that he would just read and translate word for word, using what it was using the Urim and thummim, which were spectacles.
John Dehlin [01:55:31] And obviously now we know that he put a stone, the same peep stone he used for treasure digging. He would put that stone in his hat. The plates weren't anywhere in the room. So you weren't taught an accurate. You weren't even aware of the accurate narrative about how he actually translated, is that right?
Emily Guincho [01:55:50] Absolutely not.
John Dehlin [01:55:51] Okay, so you were sort of led to teach a false narrative about that.
Emily Guincho [01:55:56] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:55:57] What about the fact that Joseph's first vision story, that there were multiple versions of it and that it. That his story changed significantly over time? Were you ever taught about that as you were teaching the first vision story in Palmyra?
Emily Guincho [01:56:13] Nope.
John Dehlin [01:56:14] No. You hadn't heard about that or.
Emily Guincho [01:56:16] No, not at all.
John Dehlin [01:56:17] Okay.
Emily Guincho [01:56:18] My husband is the one to blame for that.
John Dehlin [01:56:21] What? Oh, for learning about this.
Emily Guincho [01:56:24] For learning about that.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:56:26] I was questioned by a general authority about this. Yeah, it was.
Emily Guincho [01:56:41] A French brother. He was a 70 at the time?
Leopoldo Larcher [01:56:51] No, no,
Emily Guincho [01:56:56] 70.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:56:57] General authority came to me and said, what do you think about if someone comes to you and says, you know, there are three way or three story about the first vision? I was out my mind was not even thinking about this. I said, who cares that for me, it was flying over my head. It was quite simple.
Emily Guincho [01:57:38] So you didn't ask any details about. No, the three very different versions.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:57:44] Cindy mentioned this. I said, but I don't even know that there are three ways, three versions, versions? Nope.
John Dehlin [01:57:56] And then were you ever taught that Joseph Smith ultimately became a polygamist and that he had over 30 wives and that, that sort of thing, as you were instructed on what to teach people learning about Joseph Smith?
Emily Guincho [01:58:12] Nope.
Leopoldo Larcher [01:58:12] Nope.
John Dehlin [01:58:13] And did you know that yourself?
Emily Guincho [01:58:15] No.
John Dehlin [01:58:15] So you're teaching about. You're teaching investigators about the life of Joseph Smith and you didn't even know how many that he had more than one wife.
Margi Dehlin [01:58:24] Correct.
John Dehlin [01:58:24] Let alone 30 or more. Okay. And this is in the early 2000s?
Margi Dehlin [01:58:31] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:58:32] Okay. Okay.
Margi Dehlin [01:58:33] Did these things come up in the discussions? Like, did people that you were teaching ever bring these things up? We had.
Emily Guincho [01:58:41] I think it was a rule, maybe it was a non written down rule in the mission, that when people started to fight back with these type of arguments, we'd just leave. And at the time, it felt a good thing to do. You don't want to cause problems, you don't want to argue with people. It felt safe. And so that's what we would do. We just back off.
Margi Dehlin [01:59:06] Right. Spirit of contention, right?
Emily Guincho [01:59:07] Yeah, correct.
John Dehlin [01:59:08] But the downside of that is you didn't learn anything.
Emily Guincho [01:59:13] But I wasn't out there to learn. I was out there to teach. Yeah, that's right.
Margi Dehlin [01:59:21] Yep.
John Dehlin [01:59:21] Leopoldo liked that. He thought that was funny.
Margi Dehlin [01:59:24] Oh.
Emily Guincho [01:59:24] Then he got it all when I got back.
John Dehlin [01:59:29] Okay. So, you know, it's. It's. Sometimes some of us have felt guest lit by modern Mormon apologists in, you know, on TikTok or Instagram or YouTube who want to say now in 2024, 25, 26, that the church has not, you know, deceived its members about its history or withheld history from its members. And so I just like to check in with people to know. Do you feel now, looking back, that you were at best ill informed but at worst deceived by the church?
Emily Guincho [02:00:05] Absolutely, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:00:08] That you were encouraged to teach a false narrative to others?
Emily Guincho [02:00:11] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:00:12] Okay.
Emily Guincho [02:00:14] And it's easy for people that are still fighting for the church to say, well, they never hid anything. How is it hidden when they're telling me what to say for them?
John Dehlin [02:00:32] Also when it's your second language and they're from a foreign country just trying to learn the language and adjust to mission life away from your family. Like, how are you going to grab a copy of Fawn Brody's no Man Knows My history.
Emily Guincho [02:00:45] Correct.
John Dehlin [02:00:45] And read it?
Emily Guincho [02:00:46] You know, there were some senior missionaries that were digging into some books and against the rules. Against the rules, of course. And we would call them the crazy couples or they're the seniles. They're just, you know, we just push them away. Like, like don't talk to them. Dismissing them.
Margi Dehlin [02:01:03] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:01:04] Because the mission rules. There are only like a couple books you're allowed to read. Is that right?
Emily Guincho [02:01:07] Miracle of forgiveness 4, I think it was. Miracle Forgiveness, Jesus Christ, Articles of Faith, Article of Faith. And there was another one.
John Dehlin [02:01:15] And marvelous Work in a wonder.
Emily Guincho [02:01:16] There you go. That one.
John Dehlin [02:01:17] Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. So you. You finished your mission. Did you go back to byu?
Marriage, Family, and Life in America
Emily Guincho [02:01:23] I did. I went back home first because I had to change my visa status from missionary to student, and I finished byu, got married, had babies.
John Dehlin [02:01:37] Were you married in the temple?
Emily Guincho [02:01:38] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:01:38] Which temple?
Emily Guincho [02:01:40] We were married in the Manti Temple.
John Dehlin [02:01:42] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:01:44] And I was a sealer.
John Dehlin [02:01:46] So you were a temple sealer?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:01:47] Yeah, I requested the authorization to the president. He gave me.
Margi Dehlin [02:01:52] That's special.
John Dehlin [02:01:53] How many of your children were married in the temple? Were sealed in the temple?
Emily Guincho [02:01:59] All of them.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:02:05] All of them?
Emily Guincho [02:02:05] He sealed all of them? Yes.
Margi Dehlin [02:02:07] Okay.
Emily Guincho [02:02:08] One in Frankfurt, two in Switzerland and me in Manta.
John Dehlin [02:02:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you've been a temple sealer, not a temple president though, right?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:02:18] No, no.
John Dehlin [02:02:19] Temple sealer. Area authority, Mission president. Were you a bishop? Were you a bishop? Okay, okay, okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:02:27] I jumped.
Margi Dehlin [02:02:28] I was gonna say you skipped over that.
John Dehlin [02:02:31] You jumped over. Okay, got it.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:02:33] All right.
John Dehlin [02:02:34] So you found your eternal companion at BYU or after.
Emily Guincho [02:02:39] Yes, it was at byu. I was the native Italian speaker at the so called Flisser, the foreign language student housing or residence just across the mtc. Between the MTC and the temple. That little.
John Dehlin [02:02:55] I think they were called international houses. Yeah, if you wanted to be with French speakers or Spanish speakers or Italian speakers. You live in the Italian House, Correct. So you lived there?
Emily Guincho [02:03:05] I was the one native speaker of the Italian house for the girls. And I had five roommates that wanted to learn Italian and I would help them with their homework and stuff like that. And we'd have meals together, speaking Italian and prepping it.
Margi Dehlin [02:03:17] It's so fun.
Emily Guincho [02:03:19] It was really fun.
Margi Dehlin [02:03:19] Did they have that when we went?
John Dehlin [02:03:21] Yeah, they did.
Margi Dehlin [02:03:21] I would have loved that. Had no idea.
Emily Guincho [02:03:25] I was the native in the Italian House. And I had a roommate that was from Portugal studying Italian, but she was also a BYU professor, happened to be my husband's professor. And so he would come and talk to her about homework or just to hang out to practice his Portuguese because he served speaking Spanish and Portuguese in Utah and then he saw me and the rest is history.
John Dehlin [02:03:51] Did you work in the mtc?
Emily Guincho [02:03:52] I did.
John Dehlin [02:03:52] Teaching Italian as well?
Emily Guincho [02:03:54] Yes, I did for about four years.
John Dehlin [02:03:56] Future Mormon missionaries going to Italy or elsewhere.
Emily Guincho [02:03:59] Correct.
John Dehlin [02:04:00] Any other countries where Italian is the primary language? Any African country or anything?
Emily Guincho [02:04:08] No. Libya used to be an Italian territory.
John Dehlin [02:04:11] Okay.
Emily Guincho [02:04:11] But it was.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:04:13] There are many colonized, decolonized, but we had.
Emily Guincho [02:04:18] There's a lot of Italians in the world, but not. Not a specific other country that speaks Italian.
John Dehlin [02:04:24] What was that like teaching in the mtc? That's pretty prestigious.
Emily Guincho [02:04:28] It was. It was. I went from the BYU Cougarit cafeteria to the mtc. So I was like, ooh, better food. Walking up the ladder.
John Dehlin [02:04:38] Better food.
Margi Dehlin [02:04:39] Better food.
Emily Guincho [02:04:40] Don't know. I'll talk about food. Sour note. Yeah. Yes. An employee at the Cougar. Eat. To be an employee at the.
Margi Dehlin [02:04:53] Got it. Yes.
John Dehlin [02:04:57] Okay, at the end, we got to get your recommendations for Italian restaurants.
Emily Guincho [02:05:02] Come to my house.
John Dehlin [02:05:03] Come to your house?
Margi Dehlin [02:05:04] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:05:04] Okay.
Emily Guincho [02:05:05] You're invited.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:05:07] All right.
John Dehlin [02:05:08] Okay. So overall, did you feel treated well at BYU as an Italian international student?
Emily Guincho [02:05:15] Yes, very much.
John Dehlin [02:05:17] Okay.
Emily Guincho [02:05:18] I had crazy roommates, good roommates, and wild roommates. Altogether, dating was a little bit weird. It's kind of different in Italy, but overall, a really nice and good experience. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:05:35] What'd you study?
Emily Guincho [02:05:37] Do we have to talk about it? No, I study visual arts. I know I'm Italian, and I study art in Utah. Great.
John Dehlin [02:05:45] You're saying that's sort of cliche?
Emily Guincho [02:05:47] No, it's like, why did you come to Utah?
Margi Dehlin [02:05:49] To study.
Emily Guincho [02:05:49] Study what? Everybody studies in Italy, so.
John Dehlin [02:05:52] Because you love art? Maybe.
Margi Dehlin [02:05:54] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [02:05:54] Well, not. I do, but I wanted to do interior design. But when I got to byu, they were closing down the. Well, moving the. The whole program to byu, Idaho. And at the time, it was Rexburg, so I did not want to go up there, and I'm like, ah, what's next? I'll just fold into visual arts. And so I did.
Margi Dehlin [02:06:15] Okay.
John Dehlin [02:06:16] All right, so you. So you get married in the Manti Temple to an American husband?
Emily Guincho [02:06:22] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:06:22] And where did y' all end up living? You know, in what states or whatever?
Emily Guincho [02:06:27] First six months, we were in Florida, because that's where he's from. And then we came back to BYU because he needed to finish byu.
John Dehlin [02:06:34] Okay, and then where did you end up settling?
Emily Guincho [02:06:38] And now we're in Arizona. We've been there for the last 12 years. A little over 12 years.
John Dehlin [02:06:45] How many kids?
Margi Dehlin [02:06:45] Four.
John Dehlin [02:06:46] Okay, four. And how prior to you or your husband or your mom or your dad having kind of a Mormon faith crisis, how did you enjoy your adult married Mormon experience?
Emily Guincho [02:07:02] I loved it. It was
John Dehlin [02:07:07] in the United States, I should say.
Emily Guincho [02:07:08] Yes. In fact, it was the peak of my growing up. It was always, you know, that that's what we were striving for as members of the church, to have the perfect family, to have, you know, the lot of kids and to all be strong in the. In the faith. And even though I didn't really understand a lot about the faith, I knew that that was the vision, the eventual Vision that you stay at home with the kids, you grow your family. And so being at byu, growing your family while you're surrounded by all these Mormons, it was heaven all together. It was like, we've done it. That's what we've been called to do.
John Dehlin [02:07:48] And sometimes people describe Arizona as, like, I don't know, Utah south, like, Gilbert Chandler, Tempe, Mesa, even certain parts of Northern Arizona are predominantly Mormon. Is that right?
Emily Guincho [02:08:02] Correct.
John Dehlin [02:08:02] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [02:08:03] Like, you're living also the American version of the gospel in the church. So you're having all the resources, all the supports. Yes. You're experiencing it the way it was sort of created, as opposed to.
Emily Guincho [02:08:18] Yeah, I did one. One year. We had my nephew as an exchange student. He lived with us for that year. He was senior, I believe.
John Dehlin [02:08:36] He's an Italian nephew.
Emily Guincho [02:08:37] Yes. Yes. All my siblings and everybody's still in Italy. I'm the only one that's in the States. So he came to spend year with us and to do an exchange student year at Provo. And he was the one that first kind of put a little crack in my Utah Mormon life, because he would come home and tell us how these. Oh, he's the bishop's son and he's drinking, or she's the bishop's daughter or whatever, and she's doing all these promiscuous things. And I'm like, wait, what? Because in my opinion, those were the kids that would get in trouble at byu. So you don't do that stuff, or you're not the bishop's son or daughter when you do that stuff. You don't have a whole lot of support in your family or you don't have a strong testimony. But he was telling me, us, about all these kids that were not good kids and they were members of the church. And so in my mind, it was a little shift of, oh, so it's not an automatic thing, that when you're a Mormon, you're a good person. That was the first crack. And then I started seeing little things in our ward where I had four kids. And I think it was recognized for one. You know how the first time you come back from the hospital and you have your baby, they introduce the baby and they're like, how's Mom? And mom is doing great. And whatever. I felt left out. I don't know if it was because I was Italian and they wouldn't recognize me or whatever. It just felt a little weird that I was not introduced as the other moms kind of a thing to the congregations. And then I felt really bad when I was asked to provide a meal for a new mom when I was myself a new mom and nobody had given me a meal. That was terrible. I know it's silly, but in all of my pregnancies and all of my baby raising years, I was asked to give and produce meals for families that had new babies. But I was never given a meal.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:10:50] And I don't care.
Emily Guincho [02:10:50] I'm not complaining. It's just. It felt really out of place and weird.
Margi Dehlin [02:10:58] Yeah, I mean, that makes sense to me. Just because having been in Relief Society, it's a big deal. It's a big deal of what it exists for and the culture of Relief Society. Yeah.
Emily Guincho [02:11:11] I didn't have a family. My husband's family was in Florida, mine's in Italy. And I'd have to produce a meal for a mother whose mom was there visiting, helping. And I was like, that's so weird. My parents would come every time I'd have a baby, by the way. I would make sure that they were there to help me. But just the idea that I had to. And I never received it was a little weird.
John Dehlin [02:11:37] Yeah. It'd be interesting to try and get to the bottom of that because I, you know, being raised Mormon, living Mormon for most of my adult life, I would have never heard, like, don't bring the casserole to the Italian woman, you know, or don't. Or don't bring the casserole. The European, you know, Like, I would have never heard anything that would have prompted that sort of discrimination.
Emily Guincho [02:11:58] It is intimidating being Italian with good Italian food, right?
John Dehlin [02:12:03] Oh, yes.
Margi Dehlin [02:12:05] But where is this? Where is this?
Emily Guincho [02:12:07] This is in Provo.
John Dehlin [02:12:08] I mean, can you bring Nutel Roni. Can you bring Nutellaroni to an Italian?
Emily Guincho [02:12:14] Yeah, I'm a chef.
Margi Dehlin [02:12:16] But I do think that's interesting. Yeah. Would you say. Did you feel othered in any other way or was it really just around meals after you had given birth?
Navigating Identity as an Italian Mormon in the US
Emily Guincho [02:12:31] I don't know that my being a little introvert had any influence on the fact that I didn't have friends at all. But yeah, I never really.
Margi Dehlin [02:12:45] I was.
Emily Guincho [02:12:46] I was one of them. Meaning I was doing the same things that they were doing. Having babies and going to church.
Margi Dehlin [02:12:50] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [02:12:51] But I never really connected with anybody and I never bonded a friendship with anybody.
Margi Dehlin [02:12:56] Yeah, I mean, it's interesting you say that, John. Cause I do feel like having, well, I'll just say certain experiences in the church. As a woman. I do think there's othering that goes on. There are sort of elect Women in a ward and then sort of people that view themselves as very much on the outside of that. And it does impact experience greatly. So I am not surprised, in a way, with what you have experienced in that way. Yeah, it's impactful.
Emily Guincho [02:13:29] Then when we moved to Arizona, there was definitely, in my mind, the mentality of, oh, you Arizona people don't know what it is to be a true Utah member of the church. In my mind, I was the one putting them down. In my mind, I had never said anything to anybody, but I was superior because I came from the Holy Land.
Margi Dehlin [02:13:53] Interesting.
Emily Guincho [02:13:54] Yep. And going back home in Italy, y' all don't know anything. I'm all up in heaven. Oh, yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:14:03] Interesting. Okay. All right.
Emily Guincho [02:14:05] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:14:08] So you and your husband raised four kids in the church, ending for over a decade in Arizona, which is where you are now.
Margi Dehlin [02:14:18] Correct.
John Dehlin [02:14:18] Okay. But overall, even though you sometimes felt lonely or maybe discriminated against, you were living the Mormon dream.
Margi Dehlin [02:14:28] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:14:28] And overall, what would you give it? A, A through F. What grade would you give your Mormon experience?
Emily Guincho [02:14:34] Oh, easy.
Margi Dehlin [02:14:36] A.
John Dehlin [02:14:36] A. Yeah. So you were loving it and grateful for it.
Emily Guincho [02:14:39] Yes. Yes.
John Dehlin [02:14:40] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [02:14:41] Yes, Absolutely.
John Dehlin [02:14:42] And, Leopoldo, you were proud of Emily for coming here and, of course, living the Mormon dream.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:14:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:14:48] Yeah. Okay. And your wife, I'm sure Maria was too.
Margi Dehlin [02:14:53] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:14:54] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:14:55] Did it feel difficult being away from being the only one here, being away from your family and Italy, or did it feel like a step of empowerment for yourself, like claiming a life that's different or both? I mean, it can be. Yeah.
Emily Guincho [02:15:14] That's a very interesting question, because I am definitely the mama's girl. I would cry every time my mom was out of sight. So it is very interesting that I'm the furthest away from my family, but being that I was the special gift from the mission, I was the only one with an American name. So coming over here meant it that I had fulfilled my mission, like, spiritually speaking and being not indoctrinated so much. But the idea of me being born on the mission and everything felt like I was supposed to carry this torch of somehow the church. And so when I came here,
Margi Dehlin [02:16:08] it
Emily Guincho [02:16:08] was like I was fulfilling my mission. I had to learn English. My name is English. You know, I had to be able to be part of this world because I came into the world because of this world. Got it.
Margi Dehlin [02:16:22] That makes sense.
John Dehlin [02:16:23] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [02:16:25] I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the church, because they would have not gone on a mission. Maybe I would have been in another way. But to connect the Dots. That's why I'm here.
John Dehlin [02:16:34] Yeah. I think, Margi, many of your kids, you have often said many of your siblings might not have been born if your parents hadn't converted. Right.
Margi Dehlin [02:16:42] For sure.
John Dehlin [02:16:43] I think that's a thing. And Emily is also kind of the star of the Saturday's Warrior musical. That name, Emily, is like one of her favorite children. Right.
Margi Dehlin [02:16:53] So, I mean.
When Faith Began to Crack
John Dehlin [02:16:58] All right, so when did the faith of your pioneer Italian Mormon family start to crack? And how. When and how? I mean, you've already mentioned that your mom, at some point, was she the first?
Emily Guincho [02:17:15] My oldest sister had some issues, not necessarily with any particular doctrine of the church, but she just had issues trying
Margi Dehlin [02:17:26] to
Emily Guincho [02:17:29] continue to move forward. She was struggling to understand why so many rules and why so much control and everything felt tied to her. She was a primary president, stake primary president, a young woman's stake presidency. She was everything. But everything felt like a chore, like a job, like a. Like trying to push through.
Margi Dehlin [02:17:53] Right.
Emily Guincho [02:17:54] So she's always been kind of. Why, why, why? When I came back from my mission, I would go to her house and we would read scriptures together day in, day out. And then she got her testimony back. Good. Then my niece, she kind of on the same route. She went on her mission in Greece and had some issues, came back early and struggled with some knowledge that she found, but she never shared with us. When she did share with us was a few years after, and she shared the story of Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon with the seer stones in the hat. That was the first time that I'd heard it. And, you know, just put it on the shelf.
Margi Dehlin [02:18:45] So what.
Emily Guincho [02:18:46] So what if you translated with some stones and hat? And then my mom started saying things like, you know, you should. You should really study more about the church and you should really look into it. I know all there is to know. You know, I served my mission and historical sites, for crying out loud.
John Dehlin [02:19:10] I live in the United States, Mom.
Emily Guincho [02:19:12] I live in Mecca.
John Dehlin [02:19:13] I live in Zion. Yes.
Emily Guincho [02:19:16] So, you know, put it aside, all these little things. And then my husband comes home one day and drops the bomb, and he's like, so what if there were other versions to the first vision? I know the first vision like the back of my hand. I've memorized. And I was there. Basically, I was there when it happened.
John Dehlin [02:19:36] Prayed in the grove.
Margi Dehlin [02:19:37] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:19:38] Yeah. And what year. How long ago was this? That your husband.
Emily Guincho [02:19:41] That was 2022. The end of 2022.
John Dehlin [02:19:44] Okay, so 3ish years ago.
Emily Guincho [02:19:47] Three years ago.
John Dehlin [02:19:48] Okay.
Emily Guincho [02:19:48] And then I said, okay, let me go and buy you a faith crisis book. So I bought him a good book on faith crisis, and I would follow him around the house with it.
John Dehlin [02:20:03] Was it like shaken faith syndrome, or was it plant?
Emily Guincho [02:20:05] I don't even remember what it was. Okay, it was one of those, probably, but he didn't read it, obviously. We talked a little bit more, and he said what the three different versions were. And I would push back, being like, well, you know, when you recall something years later, years, you. It. It changed. Your memory just shifts and you don't remember exactly. And he goes, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. The very first time that it was recorded was 12 years after it should have happened. Wait, what? Ding, ding, ding, ding. And then I started listening more.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:20:41] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:20:41] And then the first version, only Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith.
Emily Guincho [02:20:45] Yes. And it was an angel. Not even Jesus, if I remember correctly.
John Dehlin [02:20:49] I mean, there's so many versions. It just depends on which one you're talking about.
Emily Guincho [02:20:52] But so, yeah, it was a big.
John Dehlin [02:20:56] In the 1832 version, it's the Lord that appears to Joseph. Yeah.
Emily Guincho [02:21:01] And then later.
John Dehlin [02:21:01] But prior to that, he had never told anyone that God or Jesus appeared to him at all. But instead it was an angel. And the angel, by some accounts, sometimes was Moroni and sometimes was Nephi. So it was just evolving story.
Emily Guincho [02:21:17] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:21:17] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [02:21:18] And once.
John Dehlin [02:21:19] And then eventually culminates in being God and Jesus appearing to Joseph Smith.
Emily Guincho [02:21:23] Right.
John Dehlin [02:21:24] But that's only after Joseph developed a theology that God and Jesus were separate beings, and then he changed the Book of Mormon to correspond with his evolving theology. So it starts. Once you have the full story and the full historical context, it starts to look like he's making it up and changing it as he goes along.
Emily Guincho [02:21:43] Correct?
John Dehlin [02:21:44] Is that right?
Margi Dehlin [02:21:44] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:21:45] Okay.
Emily Guincho [02:21:45] 100%.
John Dehlin [02:21:46] So that's. I didn't mean to put those words in your mouth.
Emily Guincho [02:21:48] Oh, no, you said it perfectly.
John Dehlin [02:21:49] Okay, okay, okay. So your husband starts sharing the stuff with you, you start studying it, and then what happens?
Emily Guincho [02:21:57] One day I come across. I listened to your podcast with Tom Phillips about the second anointing, which I knew about it because of my parents. They mentioned it in the past.
John Dehlin [02:22:11] They mentioned the second anointing to you?
Margi Dehlin [02:22:13] Yes.
Emily Guincho [02:22:14] What it was, it was a special sacred ordinance that has done to only special people. And an apostle comes, and you and your spouse gets to get to receive this ordinance where they wash your feet and they give you a special blessing or whatnot. And so when I was listening to the second anointing podcast that you did with Tom Phillips I remembered all the things that my dad explained, but of course he went into greater details because he actually did receive the second anointing. And then I don't remember exactly what part of that podcast made me go something else to made me want to research something else. But then I listened to another podcast of yours where you talk about Joseph Smith getting married to 14 year old several months shy of her 15th birthday. And I remember the second that I heard that, first of all, I didn't know that he was married to other women besides Emma. My heart just sank because
Leopoldo Larcher [02:23:28] all the
Emily Guincho [02:23:29] years that I'd heard people justifying those young early marriages like, oh, she was 15 or whatever were justified by at the time. It was normal. People used to get married that early. Yes, they were, but they never were used to get married to people that were twice their age or more. They would get married 15, 18, maybe
John Dehlin [02:23:56] three years difference or as a 22nd or 25th or 30th wife, which is illegal.
Emily Guincho [02:24:03] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [02:24:03] Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Guincho [02:24:05] And so I had a 14 year old daughter at the time and my heart just dropped. And I think my husband came home that day and I said, I'm out. I don't ever want to go back to church. That was after I had sat at my last sacrament meeting and Relief Society meeting. It was after they had changed to a two hour meeting time. I sat on those chairs and it felt like I had fire underneath my butt. I wanted to just get up and shout, y' all are crazy. Did not. Obviously in Release Society, I remember I was sitting in the very back with my good friend who's also questioning. She's still in though. And I remember this couple of sister missionaries bringing in a young mother with a girl and they were black and I wanted to whisper, do you know what?
Margi Dehlin [02:25:09] They used to.
Emily Guincho [02:25:10] Anyway, so I just felt my heart was coming out of my chest. My, my seat was on fire. I needed to get out. I never set foot back in that church afterward. That was January 2023. I was so disgusted by everything and so upset about all of the things that I had found out that I just, it became the opposite. I wanted to become a missionary and tell everybody, get out, get out, get out. But obviously it's not the right way to do it. It's not the way that I should do anything really to declare what I know.
John Dehlin [02:25:52] So let me, let me ask you to address one common accusation. And that's when I hear anyone who I'm interviewing say it was Mormon stories where I started learning this stuff. I cringe A tiny bit. Only because, you know, some of the critics of, let's just say honest Mormon podcasts or books or scholars will say, well, it's John de Lynn or Mormon stories that led people out of the church. If you. If John Dehlin weren't doing his podcast, then these people, these fine Italian people who had such great experiences in the church would never have left.
Margi Dehlin [02:26:31] What.
John Dehlin [02:26:31] What would you say to that? If somebody said, yeah, John and Mormon stories took you out of Mormonism, no, you did not.
Emily Guincho [02:26:41] But you facilitated. A voyage, I guess, of sadness and horror that would have been a lot worse had I not known what I know. Because you exist. Meaning the church is not the only thing that's out there. There is an after church population. I did not know that either. No. I left the church because my husband took a class at BYU 20 years ago and learned a few things that were confirmed into this article that he read that the end of 2022, like the CES letter. I don't know what it was. It was an article on the Internet, I believe, that he read. And yeah, that's what made me go out the. The support that I received from Mormon stories was the ability to cope with. I was going through. But you did not. I didn't even know you existed before I knew that the three different versions existed.
John Dehlin [02:27:52] Yeah. I think the implication for people that make these claims is that it's better for you not to know the truth about the Church's history because you're happy in it, which I think was true. Or that if you're going to learn the truthful history, learn it from someone faithful so that you can have it contextualized in a way to where you can retain your faith. What would you say about those two things? That it would have been better for you either to not learn the history so that you would stay faithful, or learn it from someone faithful so that you wouldn't have been let out by bad framing or contextualization of the history.
Emily Guincho [02:28:44] Okay, well, I wouldn't say that what you're doing is bad framing at all.
John Dehlin [02:28:49] Okay.
Emily Guincho [02:28:50] I think that if you are content and you don't want to open your horizons, by all means, stay right there. If you're happy, there's no reason to. To dig. If you feel like there's something weird and you're doing some sort of mental gymnastic and it's starting to feel a little complicated to do those triple jumps. Absolutely. Go dig. Now. If you want to go dig with someone that believes, that's up to you. I do not like the idea of going through the church
John Dehlin [02:29:34] apologists.
Emily Guincho [02:29:35] Apologists. Because to me, they're not trying to present the puzzle as it is. They're trying to move the pieces of the puzzle the way that they want you to see the pieces of the puzzle, to continue the rhetoric to the story that is more the most appealing one. And I don't like that. I don't like the idea of finding some truth. I want to see the whole thing. If I want to look at a puzzle, I'm not looking at one piece here and one piece there. I want to see the whole thing. And now do I want to work to put the pieces together? Probably not. So I go to a Mormon story podcast with LDS discussion that does that for you. Do I want to.
John Dehlin [02:30:28] Gathers the. Gathers the information?
Emily Guincho [02:30:30] Yes. That has all the pieces of the puzzle that have been scattered because they've decomposed everything. And now they're using all of the original resources from the church that are there. They're not going to Timbuktu to ask Johnny, pardon the name about this is
Leopoldo Larcher [02:30:48] what we miss in Italy. We don't have access. Access kind of assets to this information. So we are like this way. We go straight. That's it.
Margi Dehlin [02:31:04] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [02:31:04] And anything that differs from what they're used to look at, they don't look at. Because it's not coming from the church,
Leopoldo Larcher [02:31:14] even because it's difficult. We don't have access, and they don't have access.
Emily Guincho [02:31:19] That's the reality of most people outside of the United States. Especially if it's a different language they don't know.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:31:28] This is why now who is baptized in Italy.
Margi Dehlin [02:31:32] Right.
Emily Guincho [02:31:33] He wanted me to say earlier that missionaries are being called to Italy. Now. I have two friends whose kids have been called in the last six months to go to Italy, Spanish speaking. Because Italians are not getting converted anymore.
John Dehlin [02:31:51] And what. Yes. Okay. So let me ask a couple questions to you, Leopoldo, before we talk about missionary work in Italy today. So. So, Emily, how did things spread within your family? Did your mom leave before you or after you?
The Family's Gradual Departure from the Church
Emily Guincho [02:32:10] Before me.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:11] Did you know that? Yeah.
Emily Guincho [02:32:12] Okay. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:32:13] So when your mom. So your mom started questioning, doubting. What year?
Emily Guincho [02:32:17] About 2021.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:32:20] 2020 21.
John Dehlin [02:32:24] She started doubting and questioning before your husband even came to you?
Margi Dehlin [02:32:27] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:32:27] So when did she share her doubts and concerns with you?
Emily Guincho [02:32:30] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:32:31] And what was that like for you?
Emily Guincho [02:32:34] I thought she was senile, Honestly. I was like, oh, she's just, you know, she's done. She's done with everything. She just sees darkness everywhere. She's negative.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:43] And did she. Is that where you referenced earlier? She would say to you, maybe you should dig a little bit, it'd be good for you to. That was during that time that she was saying that? Yes.
John Dehlin [02:32:53] I mean, that is a red flag. If the woman who raised you your entire entire life, who raised you with integrity, with hard work, with commitment, who's a smart, capable person, tells you at some point, hey, there's a problem in this church I raised you in, you ought to look at it. And your answer is effectively you're a senile old woman. I don't trust you. I think that's a red flag. I'm not trying to. I don't. I'm not saying that is on you. I think that's on the conditioning.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:27] Right?
Emily Guincho [02:33:27] Yes, yes.
John Dehlin [02:33:28] That you were raised with in the church.
Emily Guincho [02:33:30] And you know what's funny? The one that took it the hardest. She was in tears. Was my oldest sister who had already stopped believing.
John Dehlin [02:33:40] Tell us about that.
Emily Guincho [02:33:40] She was in tears when my mom told her that the church wasn't true and that she was out. My sister was just sobbing uncontrollably.
John Dehlin [02:33:48] Do you know why
Emily Guincho [02:33:50] I don't notice?
John Dehlin [02:33:51] Because it was validating or because it was just traumatic?
Emily Guincho [02:33:55] Maybe both. Maybe it was. You made me go through all this suffering and traumatizing for all these years and now you're out, just like that.
Margi Dehlin [02:34:03] Remember all those rules that were so
Leopoldo Larcher [02:34:05] hard, even the responsibility they have in the church, in the world, that forced them in somehow to remain active.
Emily Guincho [02:34:17] Oh, you're talking about Monica.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:34:19] Monica, yeah.
Emily Guincho [02:34:20] No, I was talking about Stefania.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:34:21] Okay.
Emily Guincho [02:34:24] My second sister. She's still not active in the church and so maybe that's what she was thinking too, like she's just senile or whatever. I don't know exactly what she's thinking, but she's still active. She never left, so they're still very much there.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:34:38] She's the one that when I talk about against the church, they say, oh, give me proof.
Margi Dehlin [02:34:45] Right?
Emily Guincho [02:34:46] My brother in law and my sister ask him for proof, but he doesn't have any because he can't really translate articles or go into archives and stuff like that.
Margi Dehlin [02:34:57] So what was it like for you, Leopoldo, when Maria came to you and expressed some of her doubts or feelings about the church? What was it like for you?
John Dehlin [02:35:08] Well, and I'll even say it sounds like your wife, Maria, your oldest daughter and Emily all started doubting and. Or leaving the church before you. Is that right?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:35:22] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:35:23] So what was that like to have your wife and Two daughters all lose their faith. When you were the pioneer of the church in Italy.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:35:32] Yeah, it has been hard because. But not because of the religion, not because of this history of the religion. I accepted it probably because I was tired, tired to see all the stuff that was going on in third world church. And somehow I compared to the Catholic Church. I don't know how, but it came in my one my mind and in the mind of my wife that it's a way to make money. That's it. They don't care too much about person. If they would care, they will not call my husband as a mis president. Having the family moving from one city to another. Anyway, there is no point.
John Dehlin [02:36:42] What's that?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:36:42] There is not the point clear in my mind to say, okay, that what happened in my mind when I decided to leave the church, because fundamentally I need to be glad by the church for what the church made with me and for me. And that's the reaction. You know, I was so proud to be a leader in the church in Italy. And now that I am confusing my mind that I want to be out of all of this, I consider also what could happen to the brethren in Italy. So somehow when this will go around, I don't know what would happen. I don't know even how to say it, but I am sure that many will start to complain with me and this is not important. Probably many of them will look into what we are saying or what we have done and maybe they will start to think with their mind and there's something good to happen. I am very scared at this point.
Emily Guincho [02:38:22] One of the things that the church always says when we go out as missionaries is you don't have to believe us. You can ask yourself, so now that I'm out, I always try to use the same parallel and be like, you don't have to believe me. You can google anything in the church archives and it's all there. They really are not hiding it anymore. It's all out in the open. So it's not like we're, oh, the church is not true. The church is true for whoever wants it to be true. And if people are okay being in the church, why bother? That's why I'm saying when he's trying to talk to my sister, don't, don't bother. If she has questions, by all means answer, but don't go and tell. Oh, but did you know that this. No, no. It makes, it makes no sense. It's just poking something that it's not interested in being poked.
Leopoldo's Fears and Reflections on Leaving
John Dehlin [02:39:23] When you say you're scared, Leopoldo, what are you scared of?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:39:29] You don't know the reaction of the
John Dehlin [02:39:32] people of Mormons in Italy?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:39:36] Yeah, especially the leaders.
John Dehlin [02:39:42] What is their reaction?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:39:48] They are all my friends. So what would happen? I don't know.
John Dehlin [02:39:59] So they're disappointed in you? They're sad. Are they angry?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:40:06] No, I don't think so. But they will start to question themselves. Hope. I hope they will start to question themselves about the church.
John Dehlin [02:40:17] You want them to question or would that be bad?
Emily Guincho [02:40:21] If they were to question?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:40:26] I hope they will not call me. I hope, because I know.
Margi Dehlin [02:40:34] Please don't call.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:40:35] Hard to say all. And they will. I imagine they saying, how come you were so strong that you were training us? I remember one time I went to Milan teaching the local leaders, Stake president and all the 12 of counselors. And we were at 9 o' clock in the night and it was still starting 5. And I said, boy, my friend, this is not the way to lead the church. Your wife are complaining, stop and go home. And I went, I said, I go, I don't want to stay with you again. I went and they continued till midnight. And then I receive all information from the wives. It's not possible. We are breaking our marriage because the husband is always in the church. And I said, well, they are right. What can I do? I give an example. I left them alone and I was original representative for them. They didn't have idea what the regional representative was. So anyway, I'm scared. Yeah, I hope that nothing would happen, but it depends much of what will go around. We don't have information, we don't receive. We don't know even to go to get information. So we go like horses, as I said.
John Dehlin [02:42:49] So what I hear you saying is that international members of the Mormon Church join without all the information, of course, and remain without all the information.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:43:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:43:01] And so they're staying members without full awareness.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:43:09] The story by itself is interesting, you know, first vision, the story, the history of all the members of the church moving from east to West. It's fascinating, but that's it. So it's good. It's good to be a Mormon, because Joseph Smith, the Mormon, travel and going to the west, the west for Italians has a meaning. The west is correct. So it is easy to fall into the baptism font. And maybe this is why now no more Italian saints or Italian people became members of the church. But Spanish people, South American people, Brazilian people, Portuguese people, African, that. That is, yeah. Or English people, black people.
John Dehlin [02:44:34] Are you saying that Italians aren't joining The Mormon church today because they have access to the Internet?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:44:43] No, I don't think so. I don't think so. To dtdc?
Emily Guincho [02:44:48] I do.
Margi Dehlin [02:44:49] Yes.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:44:49] Okay.
John Dehlin [02:44:50] What do you think it is if it's not?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:44:53] I think that's. Wow. I don't have words. No, really, I don't know exactly. Probably it's because of Internet, probably. But I really don't think so. But I don't know which other reason could be.
John Dehlin [02:45:21] It could be they don't like American churches. It could be they don't like churches at all. It could be it's boring. It could be lots of things. Right.
Emily Guincho [02:45:30] In a way, it's a combo of both. The Internet, the ones that would like to join a church, then they dig in the Internet, they see something they don't like and then they don't. But on the other side, churches in general tend to control behaviors and people lives in general. And young people don't like that. They are very much liberal. Don't touch my space. I need to be able to do whatever I want. So maybe it's a combination.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:46:03] I don't care at all about the church.
Emily Guincho [02:46:05] True.
John Dehlin [02:46:07] Is the Mormon church dying in Italy? Is it decreasing? Is it weak? Or is it strong?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:46:15] Thanking the arrival of all these new people from South America, from Brazil, from Africa. The church is growing. The church is growing. They're not Italian.
John Dehlin [02:46:33] But not with the Italian people.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:46:35] Not with Italian.
John Dehlin [02:46:36] With immigrants.
Emily Guincho [02:46:36] Yes.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:46:37] Immigrant.
John Dehlin [02:46:38] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:46:38] How would be regular?
Margi Dehlin [02:46:40] Yes.
Emily Guincho [02:46:41] Illegal. However, there has been restructuring of the boundaries of wards and stakes in Italy. In fact, they shut down the very mission that he opened. Oh yes. And years ago we went from three missions up north to two, and one was a district. So they are moving numbers around to make it look like it's still growing, but it's not really the shifting of numbers. That's what has been happening for the past 20 years. And now I don't know exactly what's going on, but in his ward where he's supposed to attend and he does go once in a while to say hi to the members, they have more people that don't speak Italian than they
John Dehlin [02:47:29] do that speak Italian.
Emily Guincho [02:47:31] Right. So there's more African people that speak English or South American people that speak Spanish or Portuguese. The bishop today is actually from Brazil.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:47:44] From Brazil.
The Rome Temple and the Church's Future in Italy
John Dehlin [02:47:46] What has the construction of the Rome temple meant to Mormons in Italy? Some say they shouldn't have built the temple there because there weren't enough temple recommend holding members to really justify a temple. Some say they built it to compete with the Catholic Church. Or to show their power or wealth. What's your perceptions, both of you, of the Mormon temple in Rome?
Emily Guincho [02:48:16] When it was announced, I was seventh heaven.
Margi Dehlin [02:48:21] Right.
Emily Guincho [02:48:23] I know from him, actually, that to locate the land was also a disaster, because everywhere you look, it's Roman ruins, Roman ruins. So you can't build anywhere. So the finding of the lot itself was a miraculous thing. And then it took so many years to get the plans to work and to get permission from the city and then construction itself. So when we finally got to be in the temple, at the temple dedication, it was the culmination of all the struggles for so many years. And finally we have a temple. For us, being from the northern part of Italy, Rome is five and a half hours. So it made no sense for us to have a temple there, because Switzerland, it's four hours away. And that was the other part, that we were not allowed to go to the Swiss temple anymore because they needed the numbers for the Rome temple. But that meant an extra hour and a half on the road. And that's probably what he's referring to. The church cares about numbers and not the people, because why would you want to have members sacrifice? Entire families had to move to Rome to sustain the temple.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:49:41] In that case, Rome is Rome. So the temple in Rome is by the church, by the leaders in the church. They say, wow, we have a temple in Rome. You can imagine. But it's good for tourists.
John Dehlin [02:50:02] Yeah, I've heard that in the United States that the main reason the Mormon Church built a temple in Rome is so wealthy, affluent, you know, prestigious Mormons, largely from Utah, when they're traveling in Europe and they're visiting Rome, always can have a temple to go to. Is that the majority of people that are attending the temple in Rome is wealthy Utah Mormons, basically.
Emily Guincho [02:50:30] No, there. There are some members that take the bus and the train, and they spent like, two or three days. But I do know that a lot of wealthy people from Utah tend to make that their destination, if not serve a mission there.
John Dehlin [02:50:47] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [02:50:48] But it is interesting how when all of the apostles came to Rome and they were all in front of the statues of all the original apostles, and they're like, we made it back. It was like, you know,
Leopoldo Larcher [02:51:04] there's that
John Dehlin [02:51:05] picture of Russell M. Nelson in front of the statue of Peter, who's holding a key, meaning he got the key of authority from Jesus. And like, Russell M. Nelson standing there holding that key as if he's really the one that has the keys.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:51:22] I didn't know that.
John Dehlin [02:51:23] Yeah, see, you didn't know that he didn't.
Emily Guincho [02:51:26] I did.
John Dehlin [02:51:26] It's a little tacky, I think. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, was it exciting for you, Leopoldo, to see an Italian temple?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:51:37] Of course. Yeah, we were praying for that.
John Dehlin [02:51:40] Yeah.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:51:41] But as my father said, we have one hour and a half to go to this temple and five hours to go to Rome.
John Dehlin [02:51:49] Yeah.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:51:49] Now I think that has been mentioned, the temple in Milan.
Margi Dehlin [02:51:56] What?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:51:56] Someone told me there might be a
John Dehlin [02:51:58] temple in Milan someday.
Emily Guincho [02:52:00] I have not heard that, but.
John Dehlin [02:52:01] Well, I mean, Russ Russell Nelson announced like 300, some crazy number, like 300 temples to be built. So who knows? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, I guess, Leopoldo, I do want to ask you, was it sad for you to be a pioneer for the Mormon Church in Italy and then to have so many of your family and eventually yourself lose your Mormon faith completely? Was that sad or happy?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:52:36] No, I am not sad. I admit I am not even happy because the many people that I know would be involved. But yes, if it is possible to clear the church in Italy would be good. It would be a benefit for all my friends.
John Dehlin [02:53:07] If. What happens? What do you want to happen that you want your friends to leave the church?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:53:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:53:16] Okay, well, let me ask you that. So if you agree that the Mormon Church was so good for you and your family at the beginning. At the beginning. And if you agree that the second and third generations of Mormon Italians did really well, I could see a church leader saying, leopoldo, just shh, keep it to yourself. You don't believe anymore, that's fine. But you yourself, Leopoldo, believe that the church has been good for many Italian families. Let them enjoy the church. Be quiet. Leave the church quietly and let them enjoy their Mormon Italian lives.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:53:59] I am responsible.
John Dehlin [02:54:01] Yeah, for what?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:54:04] Calling those leaders, Preparing those leaders. I am responsible. So I need to do something.
Margi Dehlin [02:54:14] Yeah, that's heavy.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:54:15] If I want to protect them.
John Dehlin [02:54:17] From what? Help them protect them from what? Or help them what?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:54:23] Protect them
Emily Guincho [02:54:27] from the falsehoods. From all the.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:54:31] And also to correct the false informations.
Margi Dehlin [02:54:37] Right.
John Dehlin [02:54:38] So you decided at some point the church wasn't true, the Mormon Church wasn't true. Is that right?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:54:42] Yeah. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:54:44] What were the main things for you that led you to believe the Mormon Church wasn't true?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:54:54] I'm collecting all the information through my daughter and other person and this changed the picture. So at the beginning I had the small picture and it was okay. Now the picture is enlarged and
Margi Dehlin [02:55:22] I
Leopoldo Larcher [02:55:22] would say that if I would be capable to help some of my friends, leader of the church in Italy understand what's going on and what is that they have to look a little bit above the picture they have received. They maybe would be happy.
Emily Guincho [02:55:48] I think it's a bit of a conundrum because he's saying that they can be happy in or out. If they're happy in, he's saying maybe I can help them be happy out. But at the same time, if they're happy in, why do you need to help them be happy out? Does that make sense?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:56:08] Yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:56:10] But I'm hearing that there's an aspect of responsibility, like you're feeling responsible, and I think that is a key part here.
Leopoldo Larcher [02:56:20] But just because I feel responsible, just because I have been their leader. Yeah, I feel involved and I love them. And I wish, for example, explaining that you can live a very good life without being restricted in those lot of
Margi Dehlin [02:56:47] rules
Leopoldo Larcher [02:56:51] to be free. If you want to drink a coffee, you would drink a coffee. That doesn't mean that you will be addicted to the coffee or the alcohol. I never drunk coffee and wine, not because I am a Mormon, because I was that way even before. So for me it was not the difficulty to. The only thing was the tithing. Yes, that for sure. In Italy, those that pay tithing, I don't know really how many paid tithing. But anyway, let's assume that all the leaders pay tithing. Just assume, if I can able to explain them that the church is wrong, They will start to understand even that I will not be obliged to trust the government. I will not be obliged to pay tithe and to pay fast offering. Well, that makes a difference. So this is my dream now. Maybe it will remain a dream, but just because I am too old and I don't have more energy. But let's try.
Emily Guincho [02:58:21] I think that one of the things that shocked him the most was when I told him about the IRS finding of the shell companies and all of that. That really struck a chord for him. None of that went overseas.
John Dehlin [02:58:35] Do you feel, Leopoldo, like the Mormon Church has been hiding its wealth and its money and that you. That the members in Italy don't know how wealthy the church is?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:58:49] Probably they know because it's quite simple. 15 million people, let's say 10 million, are active and they pay tithing. And so just calculate a little bit. Oh, I did it. I made a kind of calculation. I said, well, it should be difficult to manage that much money. I am not sure that while my daughter said the church has a lot of attorneys, technicians that manage the money, but I would say it should be very Difficult to manage that amount of money.
John Dehlin [02:59:39] What do you think about the Mormon Church being worth over $300 billion?
Leopoldo Larcher [02:59:45] I cannot even figure that amount of money.
John Dehlin [02:59:48] What do you think about the average Italian immigrant family being asked to pay tithing when you know that the Mormon Church is worth almost half a trillion dollars?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:00:02] I hope they will not pay. I hope they will be smart enough to stop or to not even start to pay tithing. And I seen family asking the bishop, I need to a little bit of money to buy the bread for my children. Can I. And the bishop fortunately has money and paid. But the. Sufficente. I don't know how to explain that because I returned.
John Dehlin [03:00:38] Oh, the. The in tithing settlement. They were told they didn't.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:00:41] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:00:42] Pay enough money.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:00:43] Yeah. They. It is not enough to help people, poor people, to take them out of starvation diets. And how much money goes to the church? How much money goes to the church?
Margi Dehlin [03:01:02] Yeah.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:01:09] The benefit to Pagicento.
Emily Guincho [03:01:15] Oh, so what comes back to you is not enough?
Margi Dehlin [03:01:18] Yeah, it benefits the corporation. It doesn't benefit necessarily the people that actually need the money in the moment or the help.
John Dehlin [03:01:28] Were you upset when he learned that the church was hiding its wealth from the members?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:01:34] No, I don't think so. It's just to the members in Italy, they don't care to you.
Emily Guincho [03:01:41] Were you upset?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:01:44] No, I was not upset. We don't know that.
Margi Dehlin [03:01:51] Got it.
John Dehlin [03:01:51] How about you, Emily? Was that upsetting to you?
Emily Guincho [03:01:54] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [03:01:54] What was upsetting to you?
Emily Guincho [03:01:56] They're asking us to be super honest in all of our dealings and then they just can't even be honest with the irs. Okay. I thought we were supposed to obey the law of the land. Apparently not.
John Dehlin [03:02:09] Yeah. For those who don't know, the Mormon church was fined $5 million by the securities and Exchange Commission a couple years ago for setting up like 19 shell companies to hide its wealth and to not have to pay appropriate taxes or do public disclosures that would allow the world and its members to see its 300 billion-plus. We don't know what's that.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:02:34] We don't know that.
Emily Guincho [03:02:35] None of that information.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:02:36] We don't care about those because we don't have this information.
John Dehlin [03:02:40] Do you think if, if Italian members had that information, it would.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:02:46] They will not believe you.
John Dehlin [03:02:48] They wouldn't believe you.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:02:50] Yeah. Because this is what you are saying.
John Dehlin [03:02:53] Yeah. Yeah.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:02:54] What are the proofs?
John Dehlin [03:02:55] Yeah.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:02:56] Tell me something about. Tell me more about that.
John Dehlin [03:03:01] I mean, it really is a genius thing to be able to create a church where you can make members Want to work so hard that even when you tell them not to work so hard, they're going to work till midnight anyway. And even when you tell them that the church has committed fraud or that the church's history is a problem, they won't believe it. Like that's pretty, that's pretty special.
Margi Dehlin [03:03:26] And some other adjectives.
John Dehlin [03:03:29] That's a lot of power, right?
Emily Guincho [03:03:31] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:03:32] Or even when the members are. I mean it reminds me of the latest Wicked movie where when I don't know if was Elfelborg, Linda asks the wizard of Oz, why don't you tell the people the truth? And literally the wizard of Oz says, because they won't believe it. It's true. They won't. Yeah. Especially if they're in a foreign country and they're just. But I mean that's an argument for the church in Italy. Maybe for some it's, hey, if it's blessing their lives, who cares what's happening in Salt Lake City? It's blessing the lives of the members in Italy. And even if they're immigrants, immigrants are good, important people too. Who cares if they don't speak Italian and they're not native Italians? If the Mormon Church is helping Africans or Spanish speakers in Italy, that's great.
Margi Dehlin [03:04:19] Yep.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:04:19] I have the example of my son in law of their second daughter. I'm telling him you never checked into detail of the church. Who cares? But I tell this. Who told you that someone has information. Let me see the information. Those information doesn't go to Italy. So he remains in the.
Emily Guincho [03:04:59] In the fog. Also, if you don't speak English, even if the information comes across the pond, you don't know what it means.
John Dehlin [03:05:07] Like there is an LDS discussion.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:05:09] I know.
John Dehlin [03:05:10] That's what I'm trying to tell you. There isn't. I don't know if there's an Italian version of the CES letter, but even if there were Italian, Mormons wouldn't know that it existed, let alone how to find it.
Emily Guincho [03:05:21] Correct.
John Dehlin [03:05:21] Right.
Emily Guincho [03:05:22] Yep.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:05:22] But like this one, only those that are interested in Internet, maybe we will have assess. But it is in English.
John Dehlin [03:05:35] Yeah.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:05:36] So another limitation.
John Dehlin [03:05:39] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [03:05:40] There's so much misinformation in, in the church in Italy. So many.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:05:46] And not only neatly.
Emily Guincho [03:05:48] No, I'm speaking Italy because I'm from there. That's my experience. Just the fact that he had to go and do the endowment session and get married in Sweden. Was in Swedish.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:06:04] Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Guincho [03:06:05] He was endowed and did not even know what he was saying. Oh, they were sealed. That's unreal to me. But like the fact that we distort the little information that we get from the headquarters. For example, there are. There were no chapels in Italy. There were no Mormon chapels in Italy at one point. And people wanted to get married in the church. However, there was no temple in Italy at the time. So you'd have to get married civilly first, and then you'd go to Switzerland to get sealed. Because of the rule that exists in Utah and Arizona and Idaho that you cannot take pictures in the sacrament rooms, people were not allowed to have their pictures taken, taken at their wedding, civil wedding, because they were in chapels. But we don't have chapels in Italy. We didn't have chapels in Italy. So in the cultural hall, that's what it was. It was so bizarre. My dad fought for years trying to say, to explain that there were. There are. At the time, there are no chapels in Italy.
Margi Dehlin [03:07:32] We.
Emily Guincho [03:07:32] We play volleyball in here.
Margi Dehlin [03:07:34] We do.
Emily Guincho [03:07:37] We have. What are they called, talent shows in here. Why can't I have a picture of my daughter's civil wedding? It's not the ceremony, it's not the ceiling. It's not even sacrament. Like, the pulpit was completely removed at point because it was the cultural hall. It was. And now the leaders were like, no. But it says here, once they did get the manuals translated, it says here
Leopoldo Larcher [03:08:05] that you cannot not take a picture.
Emily Guincho [03:08:09] It was bizarre how they would become so strict to what it said on the manual and not being able to translate it to an Italian circumstance. I am renting this church. This is an apartment, and I'm not allowed to take a picture in here. Why?
Margi Dehlin [03:08:25] Right.
Emily Guincho [03:08:25] But you see how the mentality got so narrowed and so like, yeah, tunnel focused.
Life After the Church and Final Reflections
John Dehlin [03:08:36] So, Emily, what has your life been like since you and your family leaving the church in Arizona of all places? Has it been happier, sad, mixed?
Emily Guincho [03:08:49] It has been fantastic, to say the least. The first six months were horrible. I felt like screaming and kicking every time I would see anything church related. And then, you know, it became of. I'm sorry for the ones who are still in that are not comfortable. The ones that are in. Are comfortable. I'm happy for them. But the ones that have to do the mental gymnastics and they're like, what is going on here? Those are the ones that I'm sorry for that I wish that I could help or that I wish that I could just. Hey, just, you know, there's happiness on the other side too. It's not like what they express all the time, that there's no happiness outside the church. There's Plenty.
John Dehlin [03:09:37] And, Emily, I'm also wondering, you know, regarding your own mental health, regarding your marriage, regarding your role as a parent, you know, friendships, community, there's a lot of different aspects or, you know, aspects of your life that of leaving the Mormon Church impacts. What would you say about, you know, all of those different dimensions of your life in terms of better, worse, happier, sad, healthier, less healthy? What would you say?
Emily Guincho [03:10:15] There was a transition time where I was so concerned for my kids, if not here, then where I realized that most of the things that the church teaches are good principles. Anyway, all of a sudden, that structure is gone. I don't have the teachers at church. I don't have the companionship that the kids had with their class friends and stuff. And so it felt like it was literally falling all on our shoulders as parents. But at the same time, it's not like we're beating our kids. We are good parents. And so took a minute to realize that, yes, we've lost a great support system, but the teachings that were not in line with our core beliefs that the church was providing would have been more damaging to our kids than
Margi Dehlin [03:11:23] all
Emily Guincho [03:11:24] of the good teachings that the church provides.
John Dehlin [03:11:29] Were most of your friends and community and your kids friends and community Mormon before y' all left the church?
Emily Guincho [03:11:38] Basically, yes. We live west of Phoenix, so not in the Mormon pocket of Arizona, but still predominantly, mostly members of the church. In high school for my son, he had like, three or four members of the church that he would hang out with my daughter. Now we're homeschooling all of our kids. They've been homeschooled for the past four, five years. Seven years. I'm sorry, seven years. So basically, the church was the friends that they had. And we live in a neighborhood where most of the people, every other street there is a Mormon family, at least. So, yeah, we were pretty connected with. With our ward. However, me being the introverse that I am, I didn't really have very many friends. Now my husband talks to everybody, so everybody knows him and he knows everybody. But I had my two or three friends, and I'm still really good friends with them. Just don't really interact with them as much or at all, except with one that I was mentioning earlier.
John Dehlin [03:13:01] And is that more you not wanting to remain close with them, them not wanting to remain close with you since you left, or both?
Emily Guincho [03:13:10] Probably both. I don't reach out really, and they don't reach out, so I'm guessing it's both.
John Dehlin [03:13:16] And so if somebody were to say, why, why not just Keep the friendship and don't let church come between friends. What would you say?
Emily Guincho [03:13:23] That's a good question. I don't think I. I feel like I would be imposing on a friendship like that because I'm out, so I'm the one that took myself out. So if they want to continue the friendship, I think that it should be from them if they feel safe approaching me kind of a thing.
John Dehlin [03:13:44] Because you would be worried to negatively influence them, right? Sounds like you don't want to negatively influence them.
Margi Dehlin [03:13:49] Absolutely. No.
Emily Guincho [03:13:49] No.
John Dehlin [03:13:50] Isn't it so. Isn't it so complicated? Because both of you are saying, I want people to know the truth and people are being misled and there might be harm, and you're saying, I don't want to damage them and I don't want to ruin their faith and take them out. You feel both, don't you?
Emily Guincho [03:14:08] Big conundrum.
Margi Dehlin [03:14:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:14:11] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [03:14:11] Yep.
John Dehlin [03:14:12] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So socially, it sounds like overall, you've lost friends again.
Emily Guincho [03:14:22] I didn't really have very many friends, but the one true friend that I had since the day I moved to Arizona is still with me.
Margi Dehlin [03:14:29] So I'm good.
Emily Guincho [03:14:30] All I need is one good friend.
Margi Dehlin [03:14:32] Yes, that's right.
John Dehlin [03:14:33] I guess I meant your kids overall. And. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:14:36] Anyway, for your kids, at the point with which you left, were they having a stellar experience within the church? Was it just like. Were they just hitting it and loving it at that point overall, or were they having a mixed kind of experience or like, how has it been for them?
Emily Guincho [03:14:58] Okay. So when we told our kids, our oldest son, I knew it. I've always known it.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:15:07] It was all that.
Emily Guincho [03:15:08] It was not true.
John Dehlin [03:15:09] Oh, really?
Emily Guincho [03:15:10] Yes. Yeah, I guess he was the smart one. I don't know. But anyway, he was joyous over joyous. A couple weeks before that, or more, I guess a couple months before that, had just bought a quad, quadruple combination for all of our girls and for everybody with their names and everything. And our third daughter, middle daughter, she had created like this little shrine in her room with the picture of Jesus and Joseph Smith and the scriptures, and she just fell apart. She was in tears. The other two were like, eh, right. Okay, well, I like the friends, but it's okay. Not much.
Margi Dehlin [03:15:56] Has it caused a shift for the ones that had friends who are members? Has it caused a pretty big shift for them as well?
Emily Guincho [03:16:06] I wouldn't say there has been a shift. Again, they had friends, but they were church friends. Yeah, they're very involved with sports, so they have their sports friends. So it wasn't like, oh, we're missing our friends. We're still. We still have friends. We still have fun with other things. So it hasn't been too traumatic for them.
Margi Dehlin [03:16:31] It's nice. Yes.
John Dehlin [03:16:34] So overall, individually and familially happier and healthier, would you say, Emily?
Emily Guincho [03:16:40] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:16:40] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:16:41] Yes.
Emily Guincho [03:16:42] Very freeing. Very. I can breathe now, and decisions that I make are mine. I don't have to report to a bishop or anybody. I don't have to pray to God to know if I have the right to go somewhere versus another. The first freeing thought that I had was it was always me.
John Dehlin [03:17:07] Meaning what?
Emily Guincho [03:17:08] I consider myself agnostic right now. I don't know that there's a God. I don't deny that there's a God. Maybe there is. Whatever. But when I said that statement, it empowered me so much, realizing that through all my life, I made all those choices. I decided the direction of my life. I wasn't a puppet being told where to go and what to do by the spirit or God or whatever. It was always me. I was the one in charge of the ship steering, and the ship came here because of me. And it's going to go wherever it goes because of me. No one else.
John Dehlin [03:17:47] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [03:17:48] Yeah.
Emily Guincho [03:17:49] Yep.
John Dehlin [03:17:50] And then, Leopoldo, do you miss being an active member of the church and being, I don't want to say worshiped, but being respected by an entire country for being a Mormon pioneer in Italy? Do you miss all that?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:18:07] No.
John Dehlin [03:18:09] What?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:18:10] No, it's. I miss friends only. I miss friends.
John Dehlin [03:18:19] Okay.
Emily Guincho [03:18:20] He's a social butterfly.
John Dehlin [03:18:22] So have you stopped being their friends or have they stopped being your friends?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:18:29] Well, first of all, nobody knows that I left the church. That's a problem. Oh, maybe they'll learn Now, I commented first. I said I'm scared about how many phone calls I will receive.
John Dehlin [03:18:47] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:18:49] So I am in a position to evaluate that.
John Dehlin [03:18:53] You're saying once this podcast is released, you're worried about.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:18:57] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:18:57] How many phone calls you receive. Got it.
Emily Guincho [03:19:00] But how many of your friends speak English?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:19:03] That's a problem. Very few see, it's not a problem then.
John Dehlin [03:19:08] Well, I guess word could get around that Leopoldo went on an anti Mormon, and I'm saying it in air quotes, an anti Mormon podcast and that he's dangerous and bad now? I mean, are you worried that that might happen if.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:19:24] Now the only thing I worry is will they be still my friends? That's it. If they don't want to be my friend again, I used to say, who cares? They have free agency. So they decided to leave me alone. I Will find other if I have the time to create new, new friends.
John Dehlin [03:19:58] How old are you right now? 86, Margi noted. And I totally agree that it's rare for us to have somebody of your season status on Mormon stories. And I think it's also very rare and I would say impressive or courageous on some level for somebody in their 80s when they, you know, there's this idea of this sunk cost fallacy that once people invested so much of their life and their years and their time and their reputation to something, the. The momentum is such that they don't want to change or admit that they were wrong or.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:20:38] Or.
John Dehlin [03:20:41] And so it's kind of remarkable in your mid-80s that you're willing to consider what you've given your life to and that you've been willing to come to a public conclusion that it wasn't what you thought.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:20:59] My life has been a remarkable way of doing so. This is another step. Who knows what would be in the next two years, 10 years, 15 years.
Margi Dehlin [03:21:15] We love it. We love to hear it.
John Dehlin [03:21:17] Fifteen more years of living.
Margi Dehlin [03:21:19] It's not over till it's over. Come on.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:21:21] I am trying to do all I can to survive or as long as my brain is good, I can go.
Margi Dehlin [03:21:30] That's right. Well, pasta has been very good for the brain.
John Dehlin [03:21:35] The olive oil. Wow. I'm kidding. That's inspiring.
Margi Dehlin [03:21:41] It is inspiring.
John Dehlin [03:21:42] Yeah. Yeah.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:21:45] You are saying too many good things to me. I am not used to.
John Dehlin [03:21:51] Okay, okay. Too much flattery. Do you regret joining the Mormon Church when you were in your 20s? Do you regret it?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:22:01] No. I was happy.
John Dehlin [03:22:03] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:22:04] I was happy. My family too. It was a newness. It's surprising really. Can be correct this? Oh, let's read the Book of Mormon. It was the only thing we had, so. Wow. And when we were need to some information missionaries, the elders tell me about this then. How should be a good Mormon during the week, during the day. So we were come una spunia paronta da sorbire.
Emily Guincho [03:22:44] We were absorbing as sponges everything that came out of their mouth.
John Dehlin [03:22:52] So you have happy memories of. Yes, of being a Mormon in Italy and of growing the Mormon Church in Italy.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:23:00] I was enjoying the contracts with the Catholics. We were even with the other religions. We had the Jehovah Witnesses in Brescia and we were meet them in their chapel and argue with them.
Emily Guincho [03:23:21] Argue with them. I did not know that. I did not participate.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:23:26] You were not there.
Margi Dehlin [03:23:27] That was a lie.
John Dehlin [03:23:29] So is part of you sad to lose your Mormon faith?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:23:34] No, no. Sad for. For my friends.
John Dehlin [03:23:40] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:23:40] That I probably will lose.
John Dehlin [03:23:44] Yeah.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:23:45] But for other things, I feel good. I feel even better than before.
John Dehlin [03:23:51] Really? Better than before? Why?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:23:53] Yeah, before being member, especially because in my word, I was not recognized. I am proud. I am not being recognized. Then why should I come to the church? And I decided to stop. I am too proud. They know, and this caused me a lot of problem. But I am proud. What can I say? I have been, even in my work, I always have been the first. In all company I work at, I was the first. I cannot be the second. So I have been the first member of the church. I have been the first Italian mission president. I was the first region representative. I was the first. Why should I think about the second? That shows how proud I am.
Emily Guincho [03:25:01] We need some weights to keep him on the ground here. He's floating away.
John Dehlin [03:25:05] It's clearly been good for his health.
Margi Dehlin [03:25:07] Yes. Yeah. I was going to just ask quickly if you feel like you've had to face existential, like the fear of death or. I think that's something that comes up for people, is that religion offers something within death that gives them hope. And I was just curious if either of you have felt like that's something that you've had a journey with or. Once you lose the belief in the church. And did you also lose the belief in an afterlife or not?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:25:57] I asked my wife. We were in agreement. The first that goes there, please come back and tell me. She didn't say anything, so I don't believe anything. Okay, we shall see.
Margi Dehlin [03:26:12] You'll see.
John Dehlin [03:26:13] Okay. So do you believe in God now?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:26:17] Yes and no.
John Dehlin [03:26:18] Okay.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:26:19] More no than yes.
John Dehlin [03:26:20] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [03:26:22] On more of a no. Tilt. Yes tilt.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:26:26] Everything has changed.
Margi Dehlin [03:26:29] Emily, can I ask you about the experience of the loss of your mom? If. What. How you. If there were any insights or things that kind of came to you in that experience around death, around life, around what's important.
Emily Guincho [03:26:50] It became very clear as soon as I realized that there might not be an afterlife. That the now and here is the only thing that matters. And it's the most important thing. And so my mom became ill. I tried to spend as much time as I could with. With her. And then it was a goodbye. I don't know if I'm going to see you again. It'd be nice, but this might be it. And that felt really bitter for a minute because I started thinking about all the ancestors that I don't even know about.
Margi Dehlin [03:27:27] Because.
Emily Guincho [03:27:29] I don't know. 2,000 years ago, I came from someone that was alive 2,000 years ago. But I Don't know anything about them. And it made it a little bit sad. But at the same time I realized that it's important to live the now and then, like the now that we're in with the people that we're in, because that's all the bubble that we're gonna have anyway. It doesn't matter. 200 years from now, they're not gonna remember me or my mom. That's not what's important. Yeah, but back then when I was a believer, it made it so that I needed to know about my ancestor and I needed to understand life before and life after. It was so broad, the view was so broad that I was like, I'm not even going to have time to study all this stuff, to learn all this stuff here. And so I got to the point when I was still a member of the church or true believing Mormon, I was like, oh, it's okay, I'll learn all that when I'm dead. To me, it became okay, when I die, I'm gonna have a perfect brain. I'm gonna know everything, so why struggle now? And now that I know that there might not be a then, I'm like, today is it one second at a time. I get to enjoy my family, I get to enjoy life, I get to enjoy this moment. Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [03:29:00] What about your, you know, one of the, the church would say, and maybe this would be our last question, the church would say that it's, it's grandest teaching, its biggest value is that it allows there to be eternal families. That if you get married in a Mormon temple, if you get sealed in a Mormon temple, if your children get sealed to you in a Mormon temple, then you and your spouse and your children can live forever in the celestial kingdom with God. The church would teach that once you lose your faith and leave the church, you lose your eternal family. Why are you laughing, Leopoldo? You're not supposed to laugh about something
Leopoldo Larcher [03:29:50] so serious at the end. And I came at the point where I say, if it is true, which kind of God will condemn me? He being so lovely, how come he would chase me? So I said, okay, everyone has the reason. Believe what you want, let me believe what I want. So I closed that.
John Dehlin [03:30:32] So you don't believe a loving God would separate people from their family in heaven? Is that what you're saying?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:30:41] Yeah, if it is not a God, whatever, yeah. As I said, my wife didn't come to tell me anything, so how can I believe?
John Dehlin [03:30:55] Right?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:30:56] Nobody came. So let's see. Live the best life you can make friends, make your family, raise your family. What you need more than that, what is important, what would be my wife is there 2 meter below the ground, still there, she didn't move. So fantasy, fantasy, we don't need fantasy.
John Dehlin [03:31:36] I think that's powerful, that is powerful. Thank you, Emily, I want to hear your answer too, but thank you Leopoldo.
Emily Guincho [03:31:43] I think that it's the principle of the carrot dangling. If the church presented this beautiful picture of an afterlife, then they have all that much power to control what you do in this life so that you can get to that carrot at the end. And it's yes, the church teaches good principles and yes it does help families and yes can be a good thing. But just like when in the past it was promised that Jesus was on its way back and then it never showed up and whose fault it was, it was the members fault after a while that that carrot is being dangled and it doesn't actually happen. Not that I want to die tomorrow to see if the carrot is there, but like he said, nobody has come back to tell us that the carrot is actually there. So if you want to feel that the carrot is there and you want to live your life according to that, by all means do I choose to live the carrot now to eat my carrot now. I want to be with my family now. I want to spend my life alive now in the way that I want to spend my life, not according to some person in their 90s mind.
John Dehlin [03:33:10] Beautiful. What do you think, Margi?
Margi Dehlin [03:33:14] Yeah, I loved it. Thank you both.
Emily Guincho [03:33:16] Thank you.
John Dehlin [03:33:18] Yeah, well, I'll just say again, I think Emily, I think you reached out to us first. Yes, I think you, I think you applied to Beyond Mormon stories.
Emily Guincho [03:33:29] Yes, I did.
John Dehlin [03:33:30] And then you told us about your dad and we were just, we waited, I think you waited very patiently until your dad could come from Italy. And so, wow, this has been a long journey for you guys and we just want to say Leopoldo, thank you so much for coming all the way to Utah.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:33:52] I hope it was my pleasure. Oh, I hope, yeah, you never know, maybe in the future we will hear something different. But anyway, for now, for now it's okay.
John Dehlin [03:34:08] Well we're very grateful for sure now for your willingness to share your wisdom and your learning and to exemplify the courage that you have shown us. Thank you, thank you. And Emily, it's been so beautiful to get to know you and your husband and your dad and for you also to share with us your story because none of this would have happened without you. Thank you so thank you.
Emily Guincho [03:34:34] Thank you for having us.
Closing Questions and Farewell
John Dehlin [03:34:36] All right, Margi likes to end. Margi and I like to end with just a couple final questions. Is there. Do either of you have a favorite book or movie that you would recommend or TV show or TV show to our audience? Favorite book, movie, TV show?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:34:55] I don't have. No, I'm not the very lecture member.
John Dehlin [03:35:01] Okay.
Emily Guincho [03:35:03] Life is beautiful.
John Dehlin [03:35:04] Oh, the Italian.
Margi Dehlin [03:35:06] Oh, the movie.
John Dehlin [03:35:07] Oscar winning movie. Life is Beautiful.
Margi Dehlin [03:35:09] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:35:10] About a Italian dad and his son in a concentration. Concentration camp. In that one Academy Award.
Margi Dehlin [03:35:17] Gosh.
John Dehlin [03:35:17] Life is beautiful. Okay, okay. And then what's something that's been making you happy lately or lighting you up, bringing you joy lately in your life?
Leopoldo Larcher [03:35:31] Nothing. The only thing is the bad thing. When my wife passed away, then after that, nothing is good.
Emily Guincho [03:35:39] Oh, come on. Visiting me here is good
Leopoldo Larcher [03:35:44] to say. Un appendice.
Emily Guincho [03:35:46] Oh, I'm an appendix.
John Dehlin [03:35:47] Okay, okay. All right. For you, Emily, what's been letting you up or bringing you joy lately besides your dad coming here? Oh, okay. Coming to Mormon Stories.
Emily Guincho [03:35:57] Yes, yes. Coming to meet you both and to be able to share my story and. Yeah. Just to get to know you.
John Dehlin [03:36:05] Well, thank you.
Margi Dehlin [03:36:06] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:36:07] And then is there one person you look up to, someone that you really admire or look up to in your life?
Emily Guincho [03:36:28] Nobody, except my wife.
John Dehlin [03:36:30] Maria.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:36:31] Maria.
John Dehlin [03:36:31] Maria. All right, Emily.
Emily Guincho [03:36:39] Probably my husband.
John Dehlin [03:36:42] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:36:43] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:36:44] Even though he helped cause this mess or because he helped cause he is a mess.
Emily Guincho [03:36:47] And that's why I love him.
John Dehlin [03:36:50] I love it.
Emily Guincho [03:36:51] He's my mess.
John Dehlin [03:36:53] I love it. All right, well, Leopoldo, thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories. We hope your friends treat you well, your Mormon friends treat you well. When you get back to Italy, okay? Hey, Mormons in Italy, be nice to Leopoldo. Treat him with love, stay his friend, keep your beliefs and keep your friendship with Leopoldo.
Margi Dehlin [03:37:20] Give him all the love he deserves.
John Dehlin [03:37:22] Yeah, he's still a pioneer, still a good guy. Treat him with love, Mormon Italians, even with respect. And again, Emily, thank you so much for joining us today.
Leopoldo Larcher [03:37:36] Thank you, thank you.
John Dehlin [03:37:38] All right. And Margi, thanks for joining us.
Margi Dehlin [03:37:40] Yes, absolutely.
John Dehlin [03:37:42] Couple of quick things. We are only 3,000 away from hitting our 300,000 subscriber mark on YouTube, so please take a minute to subscribe to this channel if you don't mind. We would love to hit that 300,000 mark. It helps just make people want to come on the show. So please do that. We really do encourage you to apply. We would love to have at least one person or couple from pretty much all the major countries in the world. We did Canada recently, We did Croatia recently. We did Kenya, you know, recently.
Margi Dehlin [03:38:17] India.
John Dehlin [03:38:18] India recently. And it's, it's so amazing to do Italy. But if you represent a country, if you come from a country or were born and raised in a country that Mormon Stories is not covered yet in terms of sharing a Mormon story, please apply mormonstories.org apply is how you apply. The 3 minute video is the most important part and that's where you just tell us why you think your story would be interesting to our audience. And so please apply. That's how these people got on and that's how you can get on. Also, we don't need you to be from a foreign country to be on Mormon Stories. We just want to hear good storytellers telling good stories. And it helps to be able to demonstrate that you understand our audience, that you've listened to a lot of Mormon stories so that you can help us know that you, that you, you know that, that you're certain that what you have to share would, would match well with who our people or audiences. So please apply. Thank you for everyone who donates to Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories Foundation. We couldn't do this without our donors. If you are not a donor and you value our content, our donations are in decline. I'm sure that has something to do at least with the, you know, the economy. And also I'm sure it has to do with a lot of people. There's a lot of shows competing for support and that's all good. We, we just want people to do what works for them. But if you do value Mormon Stories and you want to see it continue and you're in a position to support us financially, you can go to mormonstories.org donate and become a monthly donor and that will help keep us going. So please consider supporting us. Also, please know we really appreciate Brooklyn and Julia for all they do behind the scenes. And Margi and our board and the LDS discussions crew. There's so many people that help make all this possible. Want to thank all of them as well. And thank you, our listeners. Please like these episodes. Please comment. We love your comments on YouTube and on Spotify and we love your emails. So always feel free to email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and we'd love to get your feedback, your thoughts, even your criticisms, if they're thoughtful and respectful. Anyway, that's it for today. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. How do you say goodbye in Italian. Thanks for joining us, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Thumbnail Credits: Main image of Leopoldo and Emily taken by John Dehlin; Italy flag from flagexpress; Background image of Italy from Adobe Stock
One Response
I loved this interview. Having served in France in 2000, most of the “wards” were very similar to what I heard Leopoldo described…very small, members being moved around for the numbers. Members sacrificing so much to attend the temple (before the Paris Temple was built) Even as a missionary, I thought the sacrifice was more than I’d ever seen members give in the USA.
When he talks about his friends the ones that he might loss, this is what breaks my heart about members who leave…we are cast out, we have deceived by the dark spirit, we are weak minded and influenced by anti-mormon literature. I’ve lived this experience, most people in my housing community will not talk to me, look at me in public. It’s sad.