Welcome and Introduction to Nemo the Mormon

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's September 11, 2024, a somewhat dubious date, at least here in the United States, and it's a dubious subject, or at least a sad one from my perspective. I'll be curious to see what y' all think and feel about it today. We are here to share the sad news that Nemo Douglas Silgo, our dear friend, fellow YouTuber, podcaster, and British YouTuber, is set to be summoned to a disciplinary council. And you know what that means in Mormon land is to be excommunicated. So here is the. Here's the thumbnail. That's the Nemo, and it's Nemo. The Mormon is the YouTube channel. And y' all will know Nemo because he's been on Mormon Story several times. He's been a part of the LDS discussion series, and. And, yeah, he's much beloved. So, Nemo, it's under these sad circumstances that I welcome you back to Mormon Stories Podcast. How you doing?

Nemo [00:01:17] Thank you for welcoming me back. I'm feeling a lot of things, should we say, at the moment, but as a good Brit, I'm keeping them all very much trodden down and not addressing any of my emotions. So glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:31] I would. I would expect nothing less. Indeed, our viewers and listeners who follow Mormon Stories will know that back in 2015, I was excommunicated for the Mormon Church, mostly for my unwillingness to take down Mormon Stories Podcast. That was really before it was much of a YouTube channel, even also for supporting LGBT rights and women's rights in the church. But the Mormon Church has a long, long history of excommunicating its honest critics, from, you know, Fawn Brody to, you know, the September six to Brett Metcalf and others, even recently to Jeremy Runnels and Bill Real and Natasha Helfer. And it almost seems like nowadays it's a badge of honor to be excommunicated. Because one thing's for sure, if you're excommunicated for apostasy in. In 2024 or, you know, within the past five to 10 years, it's usually because you're on the right side of history. Anyway, that's how I feel. Nemo, how do you feel?

Nemo [00:02:37] I'm not quite feeling the badge of honor just yet. Very much feels like my community is just trying to cut me off for essentially standing up to the leadership who are doing things wrong. You know, we'll get into the specific reasons why this might be happening. But, you know, there. There are times where I have quoted leaders of the church to show that they don't really care about something. And so it'll be a funny thing to be excommunicated for quoting prophets.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] Yeah.

Nemo [00:03:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:09] Well, the only other thing I'll say, I should have mentioned Sam Young. Sam Young, of course, the advocate for children's rights. He was also excommunicated. One of the things that I tried to do, just because of my experience, was to make. Make excommunications kind of a celebration where. Where people would show up, where, you know, the press would be involved, it would become an national, international news story, and it would embarrass the church to the point where they would stop doing these, what I call barbaric and medieval actions. And I kind of thought, at least as of late, that the church. That the church might even stop doing these excommunications for apostasy. And a few years back, they even changed the language. They changed the language from excommunication to membership withdrawal, from disciplinary council to membership, I don't know, review council or something like that, but. And many people just wondered how you've survived so long, Nemo, because I think many people were just expecting this much, much sooner.

Nemo [00:04:19] Yeah, I mean, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Right. That's the Shakespeare line. And I think the church is trying to say, oh, well, you know, um, we don't call it excommunication anymore. So. And then maybe they're now trying it out on me and seeing if they can still get away with it. But, you know, they're also expecting the media to be involved in this one. We'll get into that. But, you know, they, of their own volition, have. Have expected that the media will be involved. So that's as good as an invitation to get the media involved, frankly, as far as I'm concerned. You know, I. They can't do this in the shadows. They shouldn't be doing this in the shadows. We need to. They need to know. The world needs to know that they're still doing this in 2024. They're using a medieval solution to a modern problem. I don't know who it was that called it that, but they were pretty spot on.

John Dehlin [00:05:03] Yeah, well, just to give a tiny bit of history, and on Mormon stories, I consider it sort of a podcast of record for cultural Mormonism. I'll just give a tiny bit of history, and we'll talk about things as we go. Today we want to just talk about why Nemo thinks this happened, what the history was that led up to it and why now, how he feels about it, how he's going to approach it and what we think the outcome might be. I think for me things started with Nemo. Back In September of 2020 we did an interview on Mormon Stories podcast called leaving the LDS Church as a young adult in the UK. Douglas Stilgo that was episode 1345. Oh my gosh, Nemo, that's like 600 episodes ago. Anything you want to say you about that as you're. Yeah, beginning.

Nemo's History with Mormon Stories Podcast

Nemo [00:05:56] Absolutely. That interview for me has been a bit of a double edged sword in some ways because I kind of went on it when I was very much of the opinion that I was just going to leave the church and then I didn't and I thought, well no, I'm gonna stay, I'm gonna try and make a difference. I'm gonna, you know, push for some change. And I've been successful in that regard. Not on my own, not unassisted and not in a sense not assisting others as in, you know, I was part of groups as well. It wasn't all about me. We've seen some positive changes. So it's a bit of double edged because people look at that and go well you've left. I go, actually I said that because I kind of came on in my angry face and was like, ah, I'm really annoyed about this and I just want the church stop lying to people. But even in that interview I was talking about some of the Sunday school lessons I used to give and I was turning into a bit of a troublemaker even then. So to hardly surprising this is where things have ended up.

John Dehlin [00:06:54] Yeah. If. Well, we want to welcome our everyone joining us on the live stream. Of course Mormon Stories exists through the donations, monthly donations of generous listeners. We also appreciate the super chats when we do live streams and I'll just kind of, if y' all provide a super chat, I'll make sure and show your comment. The Silver Leaf writes, Nemo, sorry they're doing this to you for speaking the truth and their truth to boot. Thank you Silverleaf, for, for that comment. And then also. Oh, go ahead Nemo.

Nemo [00:07:28] I just think that's a reference to Texas. The fact that when I got up there I was actually, you know, quoting prophets and apostles.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] Yeah, absolutely. And we'll, we'll cover that towards the end. Trumble T writes, I'm sure it's painful but Nemo, you can be proud of the work you've done to deserve this and deserve is in quotes. As y' all share comments and super chats. I'll make sure and read them today over the air. Nemo, will you remind everybody just like a one minute, like your background in the church and then maybe just one minute on what caused you to lose your faith because there's going to be people joining that didn't listen to that original episode and maybe haven't been following you.

Nemo [00:08:05] I mean, those people need to book up their ideas. Frankly, no. So, yeah, I was born into church, one of six children, parents born parents were child converts at the same time as their parents, meaning I'm technically third generation member of the church. And then in sort of 2020 time, late 2019, I discovered things like the CS letter, but particularly the church's financial behavior that caused me to lose. I think now looking back on it, and maybe it's a privileged thing for me to be able to do is have spent so much time engaging with the church since that I can look back on it and realize, you know, maybe it wasn't necessarily a faith crisis so much as a trust crisis. I completely lost my trust in the church and, and that sort of stuff. So, yeah, that's. That's kind of how I got there. And I started to be more nuanced and I was still teaching Sunday school at the time, and I was, you know, started to teach more broadly open lessons and start to bring up things that I was now learning about, you know, about Joseph Smith and about church history and stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:09:12] And you had done all the things, mission, temple, marriage. You were even, I believe, a temple worker. I was, yeah. So you were in it to win it, right?

Nemo [00:09:20] Yeah. And a lot of this has been about me wanting to go back to the temple for trying to get a temple recommend for like the past four years. But I won't sustain the brethren because they lie and they mishandle money and all that sort of stuff. And I won't pay my tithing because it's being paid to an institution that hides that money and acts in a way that the government find them.

John Dehlin [00:09:40] So, yeah. All right, John west wants to share the comment. Thank you for being so deeply involved. Nemo, you will continue to enlighten and to be a change maker. And then they're thanking me as well. So thanks, John west, for that support. So, okay, Nemo, so you lost your faith. You at some point came on Mormon stories. And did you say when you came on Mormon stories your intent was sort of just to kind of fade away? Do you Want to just talk really quickly about what really was the impetus to you actually deciding to start a YouTube channel and to be sort of the. I don't know, the, the. The. Who's the guy that started the Avengers. The.

Nemo [00:10:29] The charact Fury.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] Yeah. To kind of be the Nick Fur theory of what becomes the Brit vengers. Tell us how that, how that happened.

Nemo [00:10:36] Yeah, so I, I engaged with little Sunday school, sort of after Sunday school class during the pandemic of nuanced thinkers and people who were kind of in the church but wanted a place where they could actually kind of be really honest about Sunday school. And that was great. And I realized that my ward was like that as well because I'd moved during that time and I moved to Oxford. And Oxford is, is very much like that. You know, I, I can sit in, in Sunday school or elders quorum in Oxford and say, I disagree with Rustam Nelson here. I didn't like his talk. I thought this quote was bad. I don't think that's helpful. Etc. So, you know, I found a place where I could be open, honest. So that helped. But the reason I started a kind of YouTube channel was because Kwaku et al decided they were going to start trying to tear the CES letter apart using ad hominem attacks and juvenile behavior with the tits videos. This is the show was the acronym. And then. Yeah, so they did those. And I thought someone needs to fact check that. So I did. And I start my video started with me just watching and pausing every time they made a logical fallacy, which I paused quite a lot in those early days. And then it kind of spiraled on from there, where I would just take church materials and look at them. And I've soon started to realize that what we needed in this space, or certainly what I felt we needed and what I felt I could contribute was someone who looks at modern church leaders with a critical eye and says, right, where are they being honest, where are they not being honest, etc.

John Dehlin [00:12:09] With what intent at least did you start? Were you trying to get people out of the church? Were you just mad? Were you just trying to get the church to be honest, to make it a healthier place for those who remain in. Were you wanting to remain in the church as a critic? You know, what were your intentions?

Nemo [00:12:23] Yeah, so I'd realized there was a role I could fulfill where I could stay and be a critic. Be a bit like the gadfly in the stories about Socrates. Right. And realize that a healthy organization needs someone who's willing to openly criticize it. Intentions. I've, I've never really taken a strong position on people's intentions to stay or leave. They can do what they want with the information. The most important thing is that they know what's going on. I think I, I summarized it in my initial interview with you, John, when I said I just want them to stop lying to people. I just, that's what I want. I want to stop lying to people. I thought if I can help keep them honest in some way, that would be really helpful for, you know, my family and friends who are still in the church, fully in and believing my niece and nephews who are going to serve missions and all this sort of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] But you also stayed in yourself and attended regularly. And was that because you were hoping to be able to maybe stay in for the rest of your life, or did you envision that only being temporary?

Nemo [00:13:21] Well, I, I. Oxford was a place I felt I could stay because it's a community that was welcoming to someone like me who would sit there and just call a spade a spade and say, this is wrong, this is right. You know, I remember attending some of my first virtual Sunday schools and someone else, not me, brought up the fact the church got a hundred billion dollars and they could be doing better with that money. I thought, okay, what is this place I've ended up in know. So that was a community that I, I will be sad to, to no longer be able to attend as a fully participating member. And the, the temple has kind of significance to me as someone who served my mission there. So I also did want to be able to worship in the temple. Still, I enjoy going to the temple. There's a lot of people in the comments will say all sorts of things about the temple. And I know I've been quite risque about what I will say about the temple, but, you know, I do enjoy temple worship and I, I enjoyed my time at the temple and would like to be able to return there, but they obviously won't let me know.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] All right, Les Adams says, go Nemo. Thank you, Les. And also Knox D. Says, as an enthusiastic and voluntary former Mormon, I don't pretend to understand how this must feel. Removing you forcibly from. For being honest makes my heart break for you. And I don't think, I don't think she's alone. Thank you both for, for sharing those comments. Okay, so this is a screenshot, I believe today of Nemo, the Mormon YouTube channel. You're up to 28,000 subscribers.

Nemo [00:14:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:00] And 375 videos and, and you've kind. One of the things that was kind of inspiring to me, there aren't a lot of people that leave their day jobs to become full time creators in the Ex Mormon space, but you, you did it. And of course I was inspired by your willingness to do that, but also like a little concerned, like, but you, you ended up going full force on Nemo the Mormon. Your videos have very high production quality, very substantive, well written content. And I was going to say that you kind of, you brought to the Ex Mormon Space a YouTube channel that's kind of classic. I don't know if you consider yourself Gen Z or millennial. How old are you, Nemo?

Nemo [00:15:43] I'm 27. I'm right on the border between millennial then.

John Dehlin [00:15:48] Is that what you are, a Z?

Nemo [00:15:49] All my siblings are older than me and the next oldest sibling is five years older than me. So I feel like a millennial because kind of all my sort of cultural references from them pull me into that sort of, you know, that sort of sphere. So I feel like a millennial.

John Dehlin [00:16:06] I wonder if you're among the youngest people in the history of the Mormon Church to be excommunicated for apostasy. I didn't even have my faith crisis. I didn't even have my faith crisis until I was 31. And excommunication would have been when I was 36. So we should check. You might be the youngest Mormon to ever be excommunicated for apostasy. Have you thought about that?

Nemo [00:16:33] I, I've, I've not, if I'm honest. You know, I, I try to avoid the label that comes with being one of the younger people in this space, I guess. I mean, I started my YouTube channel when I was like 23. Right. I was a fetus, crazy child.

John Dehlin [00:16:50] I was just two years off my mission in 23. That's crazy.

Nemo [00:16:53] Yeah, I was just two years from being married, so I, you know, I got married at 21. So I do feel like in many ways my, my life as a member of the church has condensed a lot of stuff right at the beginning. And I feel like I've gone through a lot and I'm only 27.

John Dehlin [00:17:09] Yeah.

Nemo [00:17:10] And it's kind of. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like, you know, marriage and also the only thing I haven't done is have kids, so.

John Dehlin [00:17:17] Yeah.

Nemo [00:17:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:18] Well, part of what's wild, what, what I love is that you helped all of us up our YouTube game, I guess. You know, Samantha Shelley, who's also a Brit, she on Self on the shelf. Kind of did the classic, you know, YouTube, high quality, highly edited response videos. But. But, you know, between you and Sam, the UK really brought to Mormonism, slash ex Mormonism, helped us all up our game in terms of our YouTube presence. And that's been. That's been fun. As someone who cares about the ecosystem, I will also share Doug Vincent's comment. Doug's been a very strong supporter of our ecosystem. Doug writes, nemo, use this money to buy some Jimmy Dodgers to pass out to the Court of Love attendees.

Nemo [00:18:07] Don't read my mind. I will be taking snacks to my disciplinary council.

John Dehlin [00:18:10] So we. We've got you on the record. You will bring Jamie Dodgers to your disciplinary council.

Nemo [00:18:15] Yeah, I'll be taking snacks. If no one wants them, that's fine, but I'll be eating them.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] Will you bring, like, Doritos or.

Nemo [00:18:21] All the things I'm famous for, John? All the things I'm famous for. Little. Little pot of Pringles. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] All right, well, Mike will be proud of you. Mike, from LDS discussions, in addition to doing Nemo the Mormon, you helped start what we now call the Brit Vengers. I don't know if they would like, you know, to say that you helped start that, but do you want to just talk a little bit about the Britvengers?

Building a British Ex-Mormon Online Community

Nemo [00:18:47] Well, I wouldn't.

John Dehlin [00:18:48] What they've all meant. Meant to you over time.

Nemo [00:18:50] Yeah, I didn't come up with the name for sure. That was actually. I'm not gonna say who that was because I always get it wrong. And then the individual who actually was will get upset with me. So that was someone other than me in the group that came up with that name.

John Dehlin [00:19:04] I don't mean the name. I kind of mean the concept.

Nemo [00:19:06] The concept?

John Dehlin [00:19:07] Yeah.

Nemo [00:19:08] Yeah. It was a very loose thing, and it's kind of shifted over time. It was very much that we'd found a group of us who were kind of speaking out in our own ways, and we connected kind of in person at Sunstone events and which we were doing Sunstone events in the uk. So we've done a good job just as a community in the uk, kind of opening up a thriving, sort of nuanced Mormon space. And now we're doing a lot of Thrive events in the UK as well. So, you know, there's. There's good stuff going on there. But we met in person and we kind of got in touch and were part of a group chat. And it just, I think, organically developed from a group chat of people like myself, Peter Bleakley. Julian Heath, who at the time was running Sunstone in the UK and his wife Peter thinks it was him. Yes, he, Julian probably thinks it was him. So Peter and Julian want to fight. They can. It used to be priesthood dispatches as well. He's no longer on the radar for, for his own, you know, for his own reasons. He's taken a step back, which is perfectly understandable. And then Sara Delaney, Jane Christie. It was originally, it wasn't originally others for 21st century saints. It was. Alana was working with Jane. But yeah, there was a group of

John Dehlin [00:20:26] us and they're still going. I noticed that when you did your announcement on your channel, which I would recommend everyone go watch and subscribe to, Nemo the Mormon, you decided to make the announcement with the, with most of the Brit vengers.

Nemo [00:20:39] Yeah, yeah, I think they're, they're, they're. It kind of became an unofficial sort of coalition and an unofficial Brit panel for me. So whenever I would do a panel show they would be the natural go to people to bring on. I'd bring them on for my halftime shows, which shameless self plug. They'll be coming around again this October but who knows how they'll go down if I'm not a member of the church anymore. Um, yeah, you know, my commentary on. I felt like the thing I brought to the space was commentary on, on current things in quite a digestible quick format because you didn't go for 6

John Dehlin [00:21:14] hour, 8 hour, 12 hour interviews. You're basically the anti, you might be anti Mormon, but you certainly were the anti John De Lin.

Nemo [00:21:22] Yeah, yeah, I realized I, I realized the attention spans were decreasing and you know, but, and I've tried long form content and there are people, fans of yours, John, that are also fans of my channel who if I haven't posted an hour and a half live stream in a few weeks are like, I missed the long form stuff. Where's your long form stuff? Because last week's video is only 12 minutes long, you know, so yeah, you've still got very, you've got, you've an audience there that wants, that wants the long stuff. I just thought we'll give people options in the space, you know.

John Dehlin [00:21:53] Absolutely. Lily Rose writes, Nemo, I hope you're holding space for your many feelings, but be darn proud of being so strong they felt you had to be taken down. Use this to bring some hobnobs to the hearing too. What are Hobnobs, Nemo?

Being Recognised as a UK Mormon Commentator

Nemo [00:22:10] Hobnobs are an oaty biscuit. They're Oat based. And they can either be plain which psychopaths eat those or they can be half covered in chocolate, which is the only acceptable way to eat a Hobnob.

John Dehlin [00:22:23] Got it?

Nemo [00:22:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:24] Let me ask you this. So you know, here in Utah and sometimes around the country, you know, some of us sort of ex Mormon influencers will be recognized, but certainly, you know, the, the progressive post Mormon ex Mormon social media influencers, whether it's YouTube channels or podcasts, they've made a dent in Mormon active faithful Mormon consciousness here in the us. Can you talk about whether any of you, you or any of your Brit Venger peers, you know, ever get recognized in the UK when you're out and about? And can you? You know, because we know that ex excommunication means a couple things. It means you've criticized the Brethren and it means you were standing on the side of truth and justice, on the side of history, the right side of history. But it also means you reached a threshold of impact. We're going to talk about some of the things that sort of probably represented your, your reaching significant impact. But can you talk about your impact and the impact of the Brit Venzers on the LDS Church in the uk?

Nemo [00:23:34] Well, so I, and I get mocked by the Brit venters for this, but I said somewhere that I'm, I think I said it in Texas. I'm the UK's leading commentator on the Mormon Church. My channel definitely took off and so I definitely, I've never been recognized in the street in the UK until earlier this year when an American on holiday in Oxford saw me, stood outside a bakery and went nemo. I said hi, chatted for a little bit, so that was fun and took a picture together and that sort of thing. Then I got spotted in the airport on my way out to Texas by an ex Mormon who was transiting through. So I've been caught twice in the wild in the UK now and I, I'm regretting having the anonymity anymore. But generally day to day life no one recognizes. Whereas like you go walking around downtown Provo with John de Lin and you can't go anywhere without people recognizing him. If I was several inches taller, maybe I would also get spott anymore. But in the church, the impact in the church there is not an LDS meeting house that I walk into in the church without getting recognized. So that's kind of just the way it is. Now I have, believe me, members will come up to me and, and shake my hand and kind of quietly say oh thank you, I really appreciate what you do online or that sort of thing. So when I'm in a Mormon setting, yeah, I'm well known in the uk.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] So you. When. When you do get approached by faithful believing Mormons, it, you know, let's just say one end of the spectrum is anger, hostility, resentment, versus, like, gratitude and support, where, you know, what's the pie chart distribution of what you experience?

Nemo [00:25:20] Oh, like 9010 positive. Because I think primarily because I've always tried to be very careful not to trample on people's faith and be. Yeah, I'm critical of the systems rather than the individuals who believe those systems. You know, I don't feel like people feel attacked personally, when I'm criticizing the church and the way the church operates. I think. I think that's quite important or I do my best anyway, and I think people can tell that and people agree with me. You know, when I'm criticizing church leaders and they come out and they say, yeah, no, I have those concerns too. You know, I have people come up to me and say, you know, thank you for, you know, for standing up to Down. Nate jokes he was trying to lie about something, or, you know, thanks for standing up to church. The amount of believing members who are upset about the Texas incident, which again, we'll get to. But the whole steeple height thing, they're like, why is my church being made to look so bad? Because the brethren are saying something matters that just doesn't. Thank you for being a member willing to stand up and say that it doesn't matter and that we could all just get along and build something more modest, you know, so I feel like I am standing up for the interest and quite a few members can see that I'm standing up for their interests in trying to call the brethren to account and call the church's problematic systems to account. You know, I am, to a fair few people, the guy that means that people that work with their children now have to be background checked. And I don't deserve all the credit for that in any way. I don't deserve most of the credit for that. I was just a part of that. But I think because my. Because I'm a bit more of a prominent figure than those who work behind the scenes. I get maybe kind of attached to that a bit, and. And I'm willing to speak out about it, but, you know, certainly wasn't all me.

Most Impactful YouTube Videos and Topics

John Dehlin [00:27:05] But what are, what are some of the YouTube videos? Give. Give our audience a sampling of some of your most impactful, most successful videos. What the topics were, what what you were trying to say in those.

Nemo [00:27:22] One of my most popular ones, I think, is the John Sweeney interview with Jeff, Jeffrey R. Holland. And just going through that and pointing out where Jeffrey R. Holland was lying. I did a series on the lies of the apostles. So lies that they've told in public. I'd say another big one is my arguments with downlaid jokes and how I laid that story out in how I kind of took on down a jokes over lies that have been told by leaders of the church. So fact checking, church leaders conference halftime shows are good. People come there so that they don't have to watch conference themselves. They can hear what I have to say about it. And then Texas, going to Texas and speaking out against the, you know, Fairview town. Speaking to the Fairview Town Council as a member of the church and saying, you know, I don't know why my church is behaving like this. That's. I'd say those are some of my more impactful topics.

John Dehlin [00:28:18] I'll just, I'll just jump on your page really quick. And you know, divine dispute inside the feud between Russell M. Nelson and Gordon B. Hinckley. That's around whether the, the term Mormon could or should be used. Is that right?

Nemo [00:28:33] Yeah, that, that's, that's in general about how it seems that Nelson is trying to one up Hinckley in every possible way and why he might be trying to do that. And what does that say about prophets when they come into power? Should they be holding on to things that they've always wanted to do? Like Wendy Nelson said, he was unleashed. Should they just be holding on to that? Or should they respond to what God tells them to do in that moment and maybe realize or have the humility to realize that the prophet at the time was meant to be being guided. So know your place and don't just try and bring your baggage along.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] Absolutely. You talk about the second anointing, the secret ceremony that we know about thanks to our, our dear British friend Tom Phillips. We'll talk about Tom's son Allen, maybe in a bit. You talk about one of my favorite videos of yours is Nepotism of Mormon Leadership. And you systematically show how so many of the top church leaders are sons in laws or nephews or daughters in laws. Not daughters in laws, maybe sometimes daughters in laws, but just family members. You talk about the wealth of the church a lot. Polygamy. It's great, great stuff. So. All right. In addition, one of the things that's. That that's been most fun for me and Most valuable is to have you appear as a regular on the LDS discussion series. So, you know, I decided to take the great work of, of Mike from LDSdiscussions.com and do like a 50, what, 55 episode series dedicated to Mormon Church truth claims. We have had you on as a permanent panelist on that series. It's had millions and millions of views. I know it's made a significant, significant difference here in, in the US and churchwide. Can you just talk a little bit about what that has meant to you and what you've seen the impact of that series to have been?

Nemo [00:30:29] Yeah, I, I get thank yous from people for it a lot. People say that's one of the things they enjoy seeing me on the most. So there are people that are definitely fans of, that will not necessarily be fans of my other work and that's fine. I feel like what I add to this or what I try to add to this is giving space for the faithful perspective of someone that, you know, comes in and encounters this for the first time and kind of speaking to the apologetic sort of responses they'll get and, you know, and trying to, trying to keep things quite level. You know, that's what I try and bring to the table with. Most of what I do is a sort of levelness and I do occasionally get agitated, particularly when topics are quite, you know, emotive like polygamy and. Yeah, that sort of stuff. But yeah, generally I try and bring the car and that's what seems to be what people appreciate, certainly about what I bring to it.

John Dehlin [00:31:25] You also bring the receipts and you bring the analysis. I think that's important.

Nemo [00:31:29] Yeah, it's some of my favorite content to work on in part because other than sometimes when I'll sit down beforehand and just check through the slides or when I'll help build the slides, sometimes it's something I don't have to actually write myself or edit or do anything to. I can just turn up and be presented with it and go through it and react to it and I really enjoy that element of it.

John Dehlin [00:31:53] Really quickly, thanks to Ruby Ray 777 for becoming a, a YouTube member of this channel. Also thanks to Stephen Stansfield for the super chat and Lauren Helms writes. I'm so sorry that the church is taking this choice from you. Whether we believe or don't leave or stay, we all deserve the right to choose for ourselves. Let me ask you this, Nemo. When I was excommunicated and decided to make it an international news story, there were some ex Mormons who were particularly salty and basically saying, john, you knew what you were doing when you started Mormon stories. You intentionally agitated the church and criticized the brethren, knowing that this would end up in excommunication. So don't expect us to have sympathy for you. They kind of likened it. I don't know if this is a term that you're familiar with, but they called it death by cop. In other words, you want to die, but you, you don't have the courage to die by suicide. So instead you commit some crime where you know a cop's going to shoot you, but then you want sympathy. And they basically said, that's kind of overdramatic or hypocritical. What are your thoughts about whether, you know, if people are going to say, nemo, you've been doing this to provoke this outcome. You wanted this outcome. Don't, don't ask us to feel sorry for you.

Receiving the Membership Council Letter

Nemo [00:33:17] Yeah, I would say I don't deserve sympathy from anyone and feel free not to give me any sympathy and feel free to just continue to enjoy the, the difficulties I put myself through in order to give you the work that you clearly enjoy. So if you're enjoying my work, but don't have any sympathy for me, that's fine. You can keep taking. But I, I, I, I think I've been challenging the church to be better in the sense of, yeah, you could excommunicate with this. I know you could. I called my stake president when I moved into the new stake and said, look, I've been told by the people I meet the handbook's definition of apostasy, and I'm worried that I'm going to get kicked out for what I'm doing. And I was reassured, no, he's not worried about it. And constantly, time and time again, as things escalated and as I went out to Texas, as I spoke to this outlet, as I started appearing more on Mormon stories, so on, so on, so on. Every time I check to my state president, they're like, yeah, we're not worried. We're more concerned about within the stake. And you don't seem to be causing any trouble in the stake, so that's fine, you know, so time and time again, I've been worried about this, but I've been checking in and it seems like it wasn't going to happen. So I've kind of been carrying on. And yeah, so I've been daring them to be better than kicking me out and rising above it and seeing if they can actually just tolerate someone being critical within the Community. Someone who's engaged with the community, which I am and have been. And, yeah, if someone wants to engage with the community but be critical, can they endure that? And they endured it for about four years before they went. Actually, you know what? I'm not sure anymore.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] Yeah. Also velocity. You went way faster than me. It took the church 10 years to excommunicate me. I started Mormon Stories in 2005. They did it in 2015 when I bought the microphone because of my experience. Experience watching the September 6th get excommunicated in 1993 while I was a BYU student. When I bought the microphone and published my first episode, I knew. I knew I probably would have said, I'd bet a million dollars that I'll end up excommunicated. Even though I didn't want that outcome, I kind of knew that would likely be the outcome, not because of anything I intended to do, but just because I know how the Brethren have always treated dissenters. How. How confident do you think or how aware do you think you were when you started that this might be the outcome?

Nemo [00:35:37] Oh, I. I knew logically, emotionally, it's different, isn't it? And I think it's a lot of emotions I'm dealing with. Emotions aren't particularly logical. So, you know, there will be people in the chat, and there have been people that have given me the feedback that I should expect nothing less and that they have no sympathy for me. That's fine. Um, but they didn't go through it. And I'm feeling what I'm feeling, or trying not to feel what I'm feeling, because, you know, that's how we operate over here. And, yeah, I'll come to terms with it eventually, and I'll process all those feelings. But I knew pretty early on. Well, the fact that my channel got quite successful quite quickly, you know, I'm. I'm not successful by, you know, the standards of even warmer stories in terms of, you know, subscriber numbers or. Or other mainstream view channels. Channels my size don't usually go full time, but it's thanks to, you know, generous supporters and. And donors that I'm able to do that. And so, yeah, I. I knew pretty early on that I was onto something that was making a difference. And I knew that the side effect of making a difference could be that the Church wants me to stop making that difference because they don't like the outcome of it.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] Yeah. Well, let's go ahead and read the letter you received, and then I want to go through some of the major, you know, I want to ask you why and why now what the offenses were that you think put you on the list other than just having a voice, speaking out and being successful. We're going to go through sort of a tour of some of your most prominent actions and behaviors before I do that. Stray Mormon wants to know, nemo, why don't you simply turn in your resignation letter and control your destiny instead of allowing the church to do it? I got that all the time.

Nemo [00:37:29] You can't win with this community. It's either questions like, why don't you just sign in and take the power back? Or it's how do I get one of those letters? I want them to kick me out. Why are you getting it? I'm so jealous. Like, there are people out there who are raging and want the church to kick them out. And there are people out there who would never in a million years go to one of these countries councils. And I get both views. For me, my entire thing, I guess, has been, we'll talk about it with the Oaks Instant particularly, it's going through the system and being like, right, okay, no. Where others would normally turn away, where other people would normally get turned off and bored and their leaders would just shut them down. I'm gonna keep pushing and pushing. And that's how I got communications from downtate jokes. Everyone goes, oh, how did you get communication from downlight jokes? I wouldn't have. Yeah, but you didn't punish, you didn't push for like 18 months for it. Right. There's an element of persistence there. And so I'm not just going to go, well, I quit, then I'm going, okay, fine. Excommunication is another one of those things the Church does that I'm going to now shine a light on and show people how terrible it is.

John Dehlin [00:38:31] Yeah, it is terrible. It's barbaric, it's medieval. And I, I was not going to go down quiet because most importantly is, I object to just the act of excommunication, especially when someone's either telling the truth in response to the Church deceiving and lying and hiding information from its members and from the world. But also when you think about the harm that sometimes the Mormon Church causes women, people of color, LGBTQ people, children through abuse and sexual shame, there's no way I'm gonna just back down and let the Church excommunicate its, its activists and its true tellers. So. So that's why for me. All right. Really?

Nemo [00:39:19] Oh, and just, just real quick.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] Sorry.

Nemo [00:39:21] I just want to say, fundamentally, the Reason I don't quit is because I don't want to leave the church. Sorry, I don't know how I quite forgot to mention that part.

John Dehlin [00:39:28] Yeah.

Nemo [00:39:29] But, you know, above all the highfaluting ideas and all the. Well, I'm just going to follow the system through. It's fundamentally because I don't want to leave. If I, if I wanted to leave, I, I know I can write a letter and leave. I know that there's several leaders that would happily process that very quickly and have me off their books and have me out, but I don't want to, and I don't have to necessarily explain those reasons, but.

John Dehlin [00:39:51] Well, yeah, so I was going to just say, why not? If you don't believe it's true, you know, if you believe that the modern leadership is corrupt, if you think Joseph Smith was a fraud, why, you don't have to answer. But why don't you just want to leave and resign?

Nemo [00:40:07] I think there is, there is. I, I've always kind of remained pragmatic and not gone into the, the where's and whys in terms of, you know, the whole Joseph Smith thing and the, and the Book of Mormon, all that sort of stuff. It's simply that I, I'm here. I was born into this religion. I was born into this community. This is my community. This is what I know. These are my people and this is where I want to stay. Because I can have a difference here. I can make a difference here. I can make it that little bit better. And I have done like I said and I'll be proud of that. But this is a place that I could continue to improve and make better. And even just in my little community in Oxford that I, amongst others, I'm part of making that a more open minded, honest, intellectually honest space for people who don't normally get that experience as members of the church. So I don't want to walk away from that. Yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to leave that and I know. So I'll still be going to Elders quorum. Yeah, I might not be allowed to speak anymore, but I could still be there.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] I love that idea of you still attending. Lavina Fielding Anderson, one of the September six, as I understand it, for 20 or 30 years, just continue going to church even though she was excommunicated. That's a super, I mean, it's hard. That's psychologically, I don't know, masochistic, but she did it. The Cambria guy writes. As someone who chose to Resign membership to avoid a council being called. Thank you for putting yourself out there in ways I can't to create a space of informed consent and decision I never had. All of you, thank you. Thank you. The Cambria guy, Landry writes, you are an example that will be used for years to show the cult behavior of the church you are not allowed to question. Thank you so much for doing this. And that's. That's worth noting that Stephen Hassan gave us a really easy way to identify cult behavior. Do you want to remind us what that is, Nemo?

Nemo [00:42:01] I. I don't know. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:42:03] So it's the bite model. They control behavior by controlling information, controlling your thoughts, and then manipulating you with emotions like fear, you know, And I. I think that's part of. Of what you're saying, is that people deserve the information so that they can think for themselves. I don't know.

Nemo [00:42:23] Yeah, people do. People deserve to know that there's someone in the congregation who's willing to be open and honest with them, even if it's not comfortable for both of us. Right?

John Dehlin [00:42:33] Yeah. All right, well, let's go ahead and. Oh, I was going to ask you this. Is there a part of you that loves the Mormon Church and that is grateful for the role it's played in your life?

Nemo [00:42:48] Not right at this moment.

John Dehlin [00:42:52] How about as of last week? How about as of last week?

Nemo [00:42:54] As of last week? Yeah. Yeah. There's a deep love there for the community that I grew up in and the way in which I was brought up. You know, I said to the BBC, I wouldn't necessarily be brought up in the same way. And I was talking there very much about the idea that in Mormonism you're brought up at the age of eight, that you will make a covenant to give all your money to this church. And this is the way the world is, and there's no other way of thinking about it. I wouldn't bring my children up that way, but would I bring them up with a lot of the values that I was brought up with in primary? Yes. Would I bring them up? Yeah. That I was brought up in a very good way, by good parents, in part, at least. I think about my peers and I think about myself, the people I grew up around, the sort of town I grew up in, and the way my life has ended up. And I'm grateful for the part the church played in that. And there is a love for the institution there, and there's a love for the family members I have who are still very much, deeply entrenched. In the institution.

John Dehlin [00:43:47] Yeah, Yeah, I, I think it's really hard to do this sort of activism that we do without some form of love that sort of underlies it all. So let's go. What's that?

Nemo [00:44:00] Otherwise you'd give up, right?

John Dehlin [00:44:01] Yeah. Or move on. Right. Like hate. Usually. Usually when we even hate. And I'm not ascribing that emotion to you, it. There's an underlining of former love or love that's been very much abused or disappointed. At least that's kind of what I. What I think. All right, well, let's go ahead and read the letter and then we're going to talk about some of the. Some of the actions of fame on your behalf. This letter is hard to read, but I'll just leave it up there. 4th of September, 2024. So that's just a week ago. It says, dear Brother, still go. The Stake Presidency is holding a membership council in your behalf. The council will be held at 10am on, and then it gives a time. Do you want to talk about that? 10:00am I've. I was just saying to you, like, I've never heard of a disciplinary council being held on a weekday at 10am it's almost always on a Sunday afternoon when I've. When I've seen these things be scheduled.

Anatomy of the Excommunication Letter

Nemo [00:45:04] Any comments on that afternoon? Well, I hadn't considered it could be held on the Sabbath. Yeah, I, I know why it was chosen for that day. I also cynically know why. But the answer I was given is that the area presidency said it should be during the daytime so that the media presence, that it would be sort of light and airy and it won't be dark and gloomy. I've since come back and said it's an unacceptable time and we're changing the date so we'll find out what date it will be. And we're still kind of fine tuning that. So there is no date as of yet, but it will have to be either a weekend during the day or it'll have to be an evening because my wife works at like an actual job, unlike us, John, who kind of just fart around talking about Mormonism. She, like, has an actual job and so, yeah, she needs to be there.

John Dehlin [00:45:59] And you want her to be there with you? Yeah, my disciplinary council got out late into the night and there was this big candlelight vigil with like hundreds of people holding candles. And then the news was there. So it was very dramatic. I'm sure they didn't love this, the cinematics of that. So it's interesting to see how they change the disciplinary council process as they learn from other people. All right, let's keep reading. So this council will consider your public statements as well as reported conduct that together suggest you have a repeatedly acted in clear and deliberate public opposition to the church, its doctrine, and its leaders and babies engaged in a pattern of intentionally working to weaken the faith and activity of church members, either of which, if established, could constitute apostasy. I think it's silly that they're talking about this like. Well, we'll see. We'll see if the evidence stacks up to a guilty verdict. We all know that these things are decided before the letters ever get written. He says during the council, I anticipate that it will take about 15 minutes to present information regarding your statements and reported conduct. So they'll present their case. For 15 minutes, you're invited to attend the council to give your response, for which you will be afforded about 45 minutes. You may provide written statements from persons who could provide relevant information. You may invite such persons to speak to the council in your behalf. If approved in advance by the stake president. You may also invite your bishop, elders, quorum president or spouse to be present and provide support.

Nemo [00:47:43] Here's a question for you. Yeah, please, before we go there. Isn't it interesting how it says I may invite people to provide relevant information? How can I determine its relevance if I don't know what I'm actually accused of? Oh, I was gonna ask you what it's about.

John Dehlin [00:47:56] You don't know?

Nemo [00:47:57] No, I don't know what specific things I'm accused of doing to undermine people's face. It talks about conduct and reported actions. I don't know what they are. All I've been told by my church leaders is, well, you're familiar with your own content. And I've said to my. I said to my state president, that would be the same as you being called into a disciplinary at work and then saying, can I ask. Insane. Can I ask what it's about? Well, I assume you're familiar with all your communications with your colleagues.

John Dehlin [00:48:22] Well, let's talk about that. So. So who. What's the name of your state? Well, who. Just say this. What communications have you had since this letter was sent out so that you could gather more understanding of why and what's going on?

Nemo [00:48:38] My state president met with me on Sunday night to discuss this and to try and provide more information, but obviously he shut down when I asked for specifics. He wasn't able to give them to me. He wouldn't give them to me and just kept coming back with. I assume you're familiar with your content. It's your content as you started to make me a little bit angry. A little bit. Because it's, it's quite insulting to accuse someone of something and, and not be specific about it because I want to be able to defend myself. I don't think that I deserve this process. I don't think this is the right way to deal with someone like me. Disagree in the chat all you want, please. It will drive up the YouTube engagement on this video no end, I'm sure. But I don't think this is the right approach for the Church. I think particularly given some of my recent public appearances, I've actually made the church look quite good. And if that's been reported by the people that have watched those videos. So for the church to, to kick me out is, is bad for them, I think, and is not good for me either. And to have all that being based on, well, you know, I'm sure you know what you've done wrong, don't you? So. Well, actually, I don't. So you're gonna have to spell it out to me, bud, because I don't know what it's meant to be.

John Dehlin [00:49:47] Yeah, well, I, I, I don't know if this is relevant at all. But what I do know is that when I was, when the, the months leading up to my excommunication, after I was informed of the disciplinary council, I recorded all my, all my communications with both my bishop and my stake president, and I ended up releasing those to the New York Times and they published a transcript of one of those communications. And in it, it was very, very, I think, embarrassing for the stake president because he wasn't aware of the issues. He certainly wasn't equipped to deal with them. And I think by all people, and you can check out all those audio recordings on, on the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel, there's a playlist. He just comes off looking mean, ignorant, barbaric, rude, uninformed, unenlightened. And I'm, I'm guessing that maybe they were concerned that you would out duel your stake president. He would come off looking really, really bad and that you might record that and it might ended up getting shared on the Internet. That's my only theory. Having not known until this interview that he wouldn't even engage with you on why. That's disturbing, actually, that he didn't, didn't have the guts to engage you on the why because that's, they're told that they need to counsel with you and sort of mentor you to try to fellowship you into faithfulness as a prerequisite before a disciplinary council gets called. So this almost seems like they're breaking their own standards.

Nemo [00:51:30] Yeah, this letter came out of nowhere because like I said, up until this point I've been told the disciplinary action is not pending. It's not, it's not there, you know, it's not going to be their approach. So without having a meeting with my state president and out of nowhere I get a letter in the post and then a text from him saying, can we talk? And I said, well, what's it about? He said, oh, you should be getting a letter and that'll, that'll tell you what it's about. Okay, right, I know what that letter is then. And then decided he wanted to meet with me. So the one issue he did bring up, you know, he, he mentioned, for example. So he did give one example of the communications he talked about when I included the High Council in some emails about my concerns about the fact that I wasn't being allowed to use the priesthood and that I wasn't being allowed to temple recommend and these sorts of things. And I had concerns about those. And they'd created a second class membership of the church for someone like me who can't gain a temple recommend on amoral grounds. They can't gain a temple recommend because they disagree with the behavior of senior leaders. They have a good reason to oppose them. They've gone through the Church's own process to try and put that opposing vote into force and the Church has let that process down. So they, they said, well, you can't exercise the priesthood because you can't get a temple recommend. That was their position. I brought the High Council into the loop on this and said, well, just so you know, this could be happening in your wars and your units. And I gave reasons why I included them. And he said, oh, I didn't like that you did that. And I said, well then why are you calling disciplinary council? Why don't you just say, I don't think you need to include the High Council in these emails moving forward. I'd appreciate it if you didn't. Seems like what a grown up mature person would do rather than trying to excommunicate me. So that can't really be the reason because I haven't done that in a while. It certainly hasn't increased in frequency in my contacting of the High Council. So I don't believe that's the real reason. And I Think he realized once I apps I gave these same pushbacks to him in the meeting and I walked him into a corner verbally, and he wasn't able to respond. At that point, he realized there's no point trying to give me the reasons because I'll just argue him.

John Dehlin [00:53:31] Yeah.

Nemo [00:53:32] I don't know if you guys can tell, but that's kind of my thing.

John Dehlin [00:53:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wouldn't want. I know I wouldn't want to go up against Shanimo, and I've been doing this for 20 years. The, the next part of the letter is just basically don't record, don't audio or video record any of the disciplinary council. Do you have thoughts or feelings on that rule? That came up after Jeremy Ruddles, author of the CES letter. Literally, I mean, in mind, they were worried I was gonna audio record my disciplinary council. Margi forbade me to record the disciplinary council because they made me sign. I think I was the first person in the history of the church to have to sign a legal document promising that I wouldn't record. And because they made me sign that, Margi asked me to keep my, you know, to comply with what I was signing. Jeremy Runnels blew through that video recorded as this disciplinary council. And this has become a standard thing. Do you think, how do you feel about the fact that they don't want the, you know, audio or video record of what they're doing to you?

Nemo [00:54:40] I would. I would kind of ask whose privacy are they trying to protect? Because I would absolutely appreciate it that they don't record it. However, if I agree to have it recorded, then it should be recordable because actually, I'm the one whose privacy should need to be protected. They shouldn't need to protect the privacy of church leaders. What are they going to say that's going to hurt them other than if they do something wrong or if they speak badly or if they try and argue under bad faith or. Or do any of the sort of things they're probably going to do to me. I don't know. You know, who knows what happens when it's behind closed doors and they're desperately trying to justify my excommunication both to themselves morally and to then the satisfaction of each other. I don't know. I don't know what loop like mental hoops will be jumped through then. And maybe they wouldn't want that published. I think there's a lot of Americans, no offense, Americans, I love you. You're great. A lot of Americans getting very upset at the idea of signing anything at all. Do not sign that. Do not sign that. Do not sign that. But I think the. The law in the UK is different. You know, I couldn't record that and publish it anyway. So it's kind of a mute point for me to sign that because it's not taking away any right of mine. So I have no issue with. With that.

John Dehlin [00:56:09] What we do know is if you refuse to sign it, they would just disinvite you, hold it without you, and excommunicate you.

Nemo [00:56:15] Yeah, I don't like that. Yeah, I don't like that.

John Dehlin [00:56:18] And then. And then you don't have any record of why they excommunicated you. And then there'll be rumors that you were sexually inappropriate and that that's why they did it, so they can smear you. That's kind of how the church has worked in the past.

Nemo [00:56:30] So, yeah, that element of duress that you have to sign it under, I'm not a fan of, but I. I understand that that is what I need to do in order to be able to defend myself. So I. I wish to defend myself.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] Yeah. Sentia Dreamer writes, faithful, caring members who are good people get excommunicated. That's Sam Young, Jeremy Runnels, Bill Real you, Natasha Helfer, so many others. While pedophiles get secrecy, support, and forgiveness from the leadership and membership. And I'll even say legal. Legal defense from Curtin McConkey. Let's not forget that. Okay. So you plan on signing the document? Is that what I'm hearing?

Nemo [00:57:12] Yeah. I'm gonna have to. Right? There's. There's no. There's no way around that.

John Dehlin [00:57:15] Okay. Yeah. All right. The letter. The letter closes by saying, I hope that in time. I hope that in the time since you moved to Oxford and in the many times we have met over those years, you have felt my love and concern for you on your spiritual journey. You have often been in my thoughts and prayers. My hope and prayer is that as we meet together, we can find a path forward that aligns with the principles of the gospel and supports you on your spiritual journey. If you have any questions or need further information about this meeting, please do not hesitate to contact me directly. We look forward to meeting with you and working together in a spirit of love, understanding, compassion. And then this is the. Is it Tims, that you pronounce it?

Nemo [00:58:07] Tims Thames.

John Dehlin [00:58:08] Thames Valley Stake President. And you're choosing to be respectful and not share his name? What. What's your response to that paragraph about him praying for you, trying to counsel with you feeling like he's loved you and that he wants the outcome to be something that aligns with your spiritual journey. What's your response to that?

Nemo [00:58:32] I think he believes it. I think it's sincere. I. We've had a good relationship up until this point, and so I don't believe that he is personally behind this. I don't think he's woken up one morning and decided, you know what? It's time to ex this guy. I think there's been pressure come down on him. From where? I don't know. I've got some pretty good guesses, and I think there's some pretty good evidence to back up those guesses. But, yeah, I. I think. I don't think it's him. And so I think he's trying to cover himself also in that part by saying, you know, I've counseled with you. And keeping that vague will make people think that he's counseled me to stop doing whatever it is that I'm accused of doing wrong. But he hasn't. He hasn't counseled me to ever stop doing what I've been doing publicly. He hasn't ever counseled me to stop including members of the High Council in certain emails. He's not ever. He's not counseled me to do those things. So he's given me. No. The only counsel he's ever given me is to be morally relativistic when it comes to the brethren, I. E. Find a way to be okay with their dishonest behavior. That's the counsel I received from my leaders time and time again, is that I need to take a different perspective or I need to find a way to be okay with it.

John Dehlin [00:59:45] So to give Brother down and give Brother Nelson a break, basically.

Nemo [00:59:49] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:59:50] Yeah. All right. Tammy Call writes, nothing is more frightening or faith killing than the Mormon Church's history of dishing out spiritual death for the crime of critical thinking. Nemo, your show has given us hope. We love your genuine spirit. Thank you, Tammy. Call for that. Let's go through some of the possible candidates.

Nemo [01:00:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:13] That led to your excommunication. The first one was your exchange. Well, I mean, we. Obviously. The first one is coming on Mormon stories. The second is starting a channel that's successful in all the videos. The third is doing the LDS discussion series, and there's probably lots of others. Let's talk about a few more. One was your exchange with. With Down H. Oaks. Do you want to talk at all about that and whether you think that was a contributing factor?

Casting Opposing Votes and Criticising Leadership

Nemo [01:00:42] I Can I can run it through really quickly. Over the course of 18 months, I cast a series of opposing votes because I opposed the Brethren because they had made dishonest statements publicly. So people like Jeffrey R. Holland say not one red cent was spent on Prop 8D jokes saying that electroshock treatment didn't happen while he was president at byu. Them being given the opportunity to set the record straight and refusing to.

John Dehlin [01:01:05] That's with LGBTQ members, we should add. Yeah.

Nemo [01:01:09] Yes, there was, you know, Gary E. Stevenson telling the NAACP luncheon that they told members of the church to ignore a racist part of the church handbook, that they just didn't tell anyone to ignore. That that didn't happen at all. Russell M. Nelson lying about the time he almost died in a plane crash. The list goes on. And I laid them all out. I laid them all out with evidence. And what happened was my local leader said, well, we can't speak to the intent of the Brethren, so we can't say it was a lie or not. I said, right, well then let's talk to the people who can. So I cold emailed all the 12, I got a bite, and I managed to, through the area presidency, through my state presidency, and at the request of the Office of the First Presidency, send Dallin eight jokes. My three and a half thousand word letter outlining the lies that have been told. One of the first lies was down eight jokes. His lie about electroshock treatment. And after two or three months, he came back to me and said, here's a fair Mormon study that says I did not lie in the. At the University of Virginia. And I made hay online about that with John and with Bill and RFM and others about the tacit admission that one, all the other lies are true because he didn't even address them after promising to investigate them. And then to the other point, which is he wasn't able to say the words, I did not lie. He had to point to another individual to speak to his own matters of his honesty, which completely defeated the point of going to them in the first place because only they could speak to matters of their own honesty. I would have had more respect for him if he'd just come back and gone, oh, I didn't lie. But the fact that he can't say that and has to say, well, here's a study that proves I didn't is telling to me.

John Dehlin [01:02:47] Now, you probably know that it's called the. Have you ever heard the term third rail in the United States? You ever heard that term, the third rail? It's basically a reference to a train tracks where the third rail on the train track is an electric live voltage distributor for the trains. And if you step on it, you die. Like in Mormonism. The third rail, as we all know, is criticizing church leaders. In fact, we covenant in the temple to never speak ill of the Lord's anointed. So surely you would acknowledge that. You knew that calling the brethren liars might tee you up for excommunication. True or not? True.

Nemo [01:03:29] Yeah. But only in a system whereby people are more concerned with not upsetting the leaders than they are with whether the leaders are lying to them or not. I think your covenant is with God and I think God would expect you to call out dishonesty amongst his servants if you see it. Because their dishonesty doesn't just affect the people around them like with us, it affects the whole church. They claim to speak for God, so you know, it needs to be said. And it's part of your, your larger covenant to the church, to the building up of the Kingdom of God to call out dishonesty amongst those who claim to lead the kingdom. Yeah, that's what I'd say.

John Dehlin [01:04:07] It's just ridiculous in the modern era that, that leaders want to be above criticism and prohibit criticism and respond to criticism with excommunication. Another really significant thing you did was you fought the Mormon churches in the United States, mostly their attempt to build temples against the will of local citizens of various towns with really super high steeple heights.

Nemo [01:04:34] And this one here isn't about that. This one here is about the story.

John Dehlin [01:04:39] This one's about.

Nemo [01:04:40] Yeah, it's about child safeguarding. So I was part of a letter writing campaign and an otherwise pressure campaign on local church leaders in the UK pointing out that there's some certain issues with the way the Church currently approaches safeguarding of children. So background checking and whatnot. And so through that process, which is too long and tedious to kind of recount here with others, we got the church to voluntarily start background checking people who work with children, youth and vulnerable adults.

John Dehlin [01:05:12] And I guess you knew with Sam Young that that could get you excommunicated. Advocating against child abuse in the Mormon Church, that's dangerous territory.

Nemo [01:05:20] Yeah. But there we are. We managed to prove that. And this is why I think the Salt Lake tribute ran with it. Not only did we convince the church that was the right thing to do, but we convinced them to do it without any legal pressure to do so. Meaning that they didn't have to legally do this and they chose to which sets an example for the rest of the world that the church can just choose to background check people if it wants, and they're choosing not to in places where there isn't sufficient pressure from people like me and 21st century saints and the other Brit avengers.

John Dehlin [01:05:51] And we know that there's a massive child sexual abuse problem in the Mormon Church. And so it's disturbing that you even need to do that activism, let alone you might get punished for it. That story made it to the Salt Lake Tribune and even the Mormon Land podcast, which, as a dissident, it's hard to make that podcast. They generally keep that faithful and pro Mormon. So that's a real accomplishment as far as I'm, as far as I'm concerned, recently you've been getting a lot more. Your, your media attention in the UK has kind of skyrocketed. Let's discuss briefly your appearance on The Late Show, BBC radio.

Nemo [01:06:30] Yeah. Oh, that says on February 9th that it will have been September 2nd. I think that was on. It was like a week ago on Monday or so. Two days before the letter was sent out. Actually, that came out.

John Dehlin [01:06:43] This covered that story.

Nemo [01:06:44] Yes. Sorry. You've read that date like an American. Oh, so 0209. It's February 2nd, not February 9th.

John Dehlin [01:06:52] Got it, got it. Don't laugh at us. How rude.

Nemo [01:06:56] I'll laugh at you guys putting the month before the day. What's wrong with you? Anyway, so I was invited on to speak to the Late show about being a member of the church and being an activist within the church and why don't I just shut up and stop? Because that's what most people would do and don't you get a lot of grief for it, etc. And I just, I spoke to, I, I guess the listenership on that broadcast is possibly in the low millions, but it's a national broadcast. It goes out to all the local radio stations, sort of for people that are starting their work shifts later at night, etc. And yeah, that's, that's when I went on there and spoke about what I've been speaking about on Lad Bible. And, and I kind of didn't say anything too controversial. Nothing to anyone should really get upset about particularly.

John Dehlin [01:07:46] Well, the, the true crime isn't criticizing because you can criticize. And if nobody listens or cares, the church doesn't care. It's criticizing when you have a big platform.

Nemo [01:07:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:57] And lots of people are paying attention. So that's, that's the concern there. Now let's go to the, the Mormon Temple Steeple height that we've covered on Mormon stories and elsewhere. I imagine that was a bee in the Brethren's bonnet. What do you think?

Temple Height Campaign and Media Appearances

Nemo [01:08:12] Oh, I think. I think so. I think the fact that I went out there in person as well, I think deeply upset some people, including the church lawyers. And as some people have postulated, it's one thing to upset the Brethren, it's one thing to upset the members, but if you upset the lawyers, that's where the real power is. So that's when you're about to disappear. Yeah. There's two and a half thousand angry Mormons outside the building after I'd got up and spoken. So I was kind of aware that it was a bit of a risk. But, yeah, I. I went there and I presented myself honestly as a member of the church because I am. I'm an active member of the church. And I understand the church's position on steeples in that it has never taken a position up until this point. They don't matter. The words of our own leaders indicate that they don't matter and they're not important. So let's all just calm down and compromise, shall we? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:06] And here's a clip of you addressing the Fairview, Texas Town Council. I loved, as a fellow Texan, I. As a Texan, I loved. I loved the scene of my buddy Nemo going down there to set those, you know, set the church right in Texas. I also should add, you were invited there by members of the Mormon Church to speak on their behalf. Am I wrong?

Nemo [01:09:31] There was. It was local members of the community.

John Dehlin [01:09:34] Yeah, that's what I mean.

Nemo [01:09:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:35] Yeah.

Nemo [01:09:36] They threw me out. And I traveled here from Oxford, England. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I'm a graduate of the church's seminary program. I am a returned missionary and I'm also the UK's leading commentator on the church. There are three simple points that need to be made here, particularly in response to the claim being made that the height of the steeple is part of our religious observance. One, temples do not need a steeple. Two, the steeple does not have to be a certain height. And three, architectural design is secondary to the temple's primary purpose. The church currently has 199 temples that are either operating, being refurbished, or awaiting dedication. All of these are equal in their value to laissez Saint worship. They all provide access to the same covenants and ordinances. And there are several prominent examples of temples with no steeple. At Mesa, Arizona, Cardston Alberta, Leh, Hawaii, and most recently Paris, France. Of those temples that do have a steeple, the shortest is just 54ft in Freiburg, Germany. In fact, almost 90% of the church's temples have a steeple shorter than what is being proposed here in Fairview. At 173ft and 8 inches, it is eminently acceptable to the church in almost 90% of cases to have a steeple shorter than what they're asking for here in Fairview. The shortest temple the church has ever built is the Paris, France temple. At just 42ft tall, with no spire, no steeple, yet it has a square footage of 44,175 square feet, the same as the proposed temple in Fairview. Steeple height, therefore, cannot be argued by square footage. And speaking of the Paris, France temple, Presiding Bishop of the Church Gerard Corsair said, there are a number of constraints that we have the code that we have to respect, but in the end, it is only good because it makes for a temple that everybody accepts and recognizes as theirs. The Presiding Bishop of the LDS Church publicly declared that respect for planning code and constraints is a good thing because it makes for a temple that everybody accepts and recognizes as their own. Where is that attitude here? Furthering Bishop Caucy's point, the church has said a temple's design, both internal and external, is secondary to its primary purpose. The prophet and president of the church, Russell Nelson, said More plainly in 2022, it's not the location, it's not the architecture, it's the ordinances inside. I've heard many claims that the steeple variance is request required by LDS beliefs and that's simply not the case. The president of the church has said otherwise. The actions of local leaders and are not in harmony with the teachings of the prophet of the church. And I don't know why they're ignoring the plain teachings of the president of the church, but what I can say categorically is as a member of this church, steeple height has never mattered. I have known throughout my entire membership of church that some temples have steeples and others do not. I think LDS Apostle David A. Bednar summarized it best in April 2023, just last year when he said, regarding temples, who cares what size it is if you have access to the same covenants and ordinances and thank you very much

John Dehlin [01:12:39] and you got like, I don't know, close to a standing ovation. That was so fun. Nima, what's it like to be this 20 something, you know, obscure Mormon, British bloke and to have reached such prominence that a bunch of mormons in Texas, along with a bunch of never mormons are going to fly you out to speak at a city council meeting to fight the big bad corporate billion dollar mormon church. What's that like?

Nemo [01:13:05] I was just riding on the coattails of Mormon ish podcast, really. They, they started off this coverage of the temple stuff, but I got particularly interested in fairview. It's. It's strange. I have to. Flying to Texas and back in 48 hours is an odd experience and it did not do my body well. And next time I fly out to the states, I want to spend plenty of time there so that I can get over the jet lag and be nice and chilled and relaxed. So it's an odd experience definitely to have people from the other side of the world reach out and bring you to their town. And I didn't know the people I was staying with. I went and stayed with strangers off the Internet. Don't do that, kids. That's not smart. Sensible. Don't do that. And yeah, I was shown texan hospitality and really nicely looked after by the people there. And I got to see my cousin. It was all lovely, but it's, it's, it's strange definitely that people want me to come and speak to their town council, but come on.

John Dehlin [01:14:05] Instead of odd and strange, isn't it kind of gratifying or rewarding or satisfying or. No.

Nemo [01:14:12] How long have you known me, John?

John Dehlin [01:14:15] I know you. Plenty, plenty.

Nemo [01:14:18] For the helicopter ride. There's a video doing rounds on the Internet, folks. You should go check it out. Where me and the people from zel on the shelf roasted John de lin. It's the last time I was in Utah and John's roast of me was that I went on a helicopter ride. And all I could say about it was, it's all right. But you know, that is, that, that is a high praise from a British person. It was indeed.

John Dehlin [01:14:41] All right, all right, all right. Well, when you, when you reached out to me to let me know that Lad Bible TV the YouTube channel was getting was gonna have you on, I was like, who's that? And that says nothing other than my ignorance and age. But, but that apparently was a really big deal. Do you want to kind of tell our uninformed u. S. Viewers what lad bible is? I mean, all they need to know is that there's 3.19 million subscribers. The, the, the topic of the video that they had you on was, do you belong to a cult? Mormon answers your questions in the Honesty box. And then the thumbnail says, how many wives do you have you want to talk about? Oh, and we can actually, why don't we go ahead and play the. Play a clip from that. Does that make sense?

Nemo [01:15:31] Yeah. How will the church respond to you making this video? Probably not very well. I feel like I've been a bit more open and honest than they maybe would have liked me to. But that's the point of the honesty box. So, you know, I've got to be honest about these things. My position with the church is somewhat of an interesting one. My full time job is commentating on the church and that means I need to be critical of my religion sometimes because what they're doing isn't right and the church puts a lot of time and money into cultivating this polished external image. And so they don't necessarily like the fact that I'm challenging to that sort of narrative that everything's all is well in Zion, as they would say, because it isn't, unfortunately.

John Dehlin [01:16:19] Yeah, that was a nice little clip. Do you want to talk about that appearance in the aftermath, what that was like?

Nemo [01:16:25] Yeah, sure. So first and first off it means I have to be critical about my church sometimes. Maybe that was a bit soft. I should have been a bit more like I'm critical about it all the time. You know that that's a fair sort of pushback on that lad. Bible is a platform that's a bit of an institution in the uk. It's well known here. They bring such wonderful content as Snack wars where they'll get people to try different snacks from their home countries, etc. They do minutes with, it's an interview series, they do all sorts of stuff. They're a big sort of media outlet and this one particular show they're doing is quite new, it's Honesty Box. And they've just recently brought in a nun to speak about her faith as well and kind of answer questions. So they submit. They've got like a members only portal when people that want to support Lab Bible and ask their questions can ask their questions. So they put up a poll in there and said, you know, here's we've got a Mormon coming on the show. What would you like to ask him? And I got to see some of the questions beforehand and there's some wild questions in there that we didn't go for in the end, but there's a big long list of questions and yeah, so they brought me into their place in London. We, we sat down for about an hour and all it Was, was I would pick a question out of the box, I'd read it, I would answer it, throw it away and answer the next one, throw it away, answer the next one. I didn't really study the questions beforehand. I got to see them, but I didn't really do much study or prep or anything like that. And for an hour straight I was just answering quickfire questions which if you look at my YouTube channel, it's, it's almost what I was designed to do is just succinctly and quickly answer these questions. And they were really happy with me and what happened and, and they offered after support afterwards, said, you know, if you get criticism online or from your religious community, there's support available for you. As someone that's been on our channel, we can get you counseling, whatever you need, you know, we're free for you to talk out. And so when I've, I've reached back in touch and told them, you know, that I'm now on the chopping block. And the first thing, the first thing they said was, oh, do you want us to make the video private? Do we need to take that down? I said, oh, no, no, I'm willing to stand by it. That's fine. But they were immediately concerned and they are very concerned for my well being at the moment and they've been great. So shout out to you loud Bible. They've been, they've been keeping in touch with me and checking that I'm all good.

John Dehlin [01:18:42] So that's beautiful. Let me. Rebecca Raven says best to you, Nemo. We'll just share that. And then Elizabeth Scott writes. Nemo, I have great respect for your knowledge and your critical thinking. I'm so sorry that you're going through this. Love your podcast. Both Nemo and John. Thanks to both Rebecca Raven and Elizabeth Scott for those super chats. Let's play a couple more clips from that appearance.

Doubts, Faith, and Deciding to Stay in the Church

Nemo [01:19:05] Yep. Do you ever have doubts? Yeah, all the time. I think it's healthy too. I think it's important to. But that goes against some of the teachings of the church. Like doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. I think doubts are important. They're an important part of working out what you truly believe and how you can kind of authentically live your faith or be part of your faith community. So keep doubting people.

John Dehlin [01:19:32] I have to say, in the modern era, I think that speaks well for a church to give a response like that and that a church can be resilient and strong enough to have members that can put together such an articulate thought that's my opinion.

Nemo [01:19:48] Yeah. And, and, and the people that enjoyed that fact, and there was a lot of comments in there to that effect of, it's great that he's willing to be honest and open about this. Those people are now going to get whiplash and are going to be deeply upset that the church is kicking me out over this. You know, if it is the lad Bible video, I don't know, it could just be down late jokes, his personal vendetta against me because it made him look bad, or it could be the fact that they want steeples built. And I've shown to be a roadblock to that because I won't let them lie to a small town in Texas, you know?

John Dehlin [01:20:22] Yeah. I'm gonna share a couple comments from our mutual friend Colby Reddish, whom we love. Colby writes, for the love of whatever, please stop questioning Nemo's decision on this. All you have to do is exercise some empathy and realize this is Nemo's decision for his life and membership, not yours. Colby goes on to write, and for what it's worth, I remove my records rather than wait for them to kick me out. But what I do for me isn't going to work for everybody. Just let Nemo speak for himself. We love you, Colby. Anything you want to say in response to that, Nemo?

Nemo [01:20:58] Yeah, it's that I, I, as ever, I sympathize with people who, that don't understand my position. And I'll be honest with you, I don't understand my position all the time now. I'm quite open, honest about that. Does my position make logical sense? No, but it's not 100% logical that I hold the position that I hold. There's emotion to it, there's deep feelings that I don't share publicly that are involved with it. And I don't think it's. I don't think it's right that I share those publicly in part because I want to keep something for myself and in part because my channel's always been about the facts and the logic and the critique, not about what I think or feel so much, because that tends to color the conversation one way or another and makes it less helpful to people. If I start, you know, taking strong sort of personal beliefs and opinions out, out there. Does that make sense, John?

John Dehlin [01:21:48] It does. Let's play the, let's play the last clip that we've got staged up real quick.

Nemo [01:21:53] Yeah. Have you ever thought of leaving? Yeah, I have. And it's a moment that when you discover the things you lied to about in the church, or you discover parts of the church's history you weren't aware of, or when you discover the way the church treats certain groups, then there's a thought, do I just leave this organization? But ultimately, I think there is power in staying part of your religious community and working with your religious community. And that's what I've. I've done. And I've seen success in that with child safeguarding in the UK and the introduction of background checks into the church. You know, there's been success there with working from the inside with the church and kind of pushing the church to be better. So, yeah, that's ultimately why I haven't left.

John Dehlin [01:22:42] I'll actually say that. Something controversial, maybe it's a credit to the Mormon Church, in my opinion, that it would create someone as sharp as Nemo. And, you know, I think you're just a great spokesman for the church. And Gordon Lightfoot writes the church should be hiring Nemo as its new spokesman. His Texas speech was tremendous, as was his appearance on Lad Bible and his basic channel. Anyway, I'm sure you're uncomfortable with praise, right?

Nemo [01:23:14] Nemo Deeply uncomfortable with praise.

John Dehlin [01:23:16] All right, sorry.

Nemo [01:23:18] Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:23:19] Make it awkward for you. All right, so you release that episode. Is this the end of Nemo the Mormon ever? What's that?

Nemo [01:23:29] I say it's the best performing episode ever on my channel.

John Dehlin [01:23:32] I think the most views of any. Of any.

Nemo [01:23:34] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:35] And it's only been out a couple days. Like a week, right?

Nemo [01:23:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:39] Do you plan on changing the name of your channel now or not?

Nemo [01:23:45] I don't know. Honestly, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:23:48] Yeah. All right.

Feelings and Reflections on Facing Excommunication

Nemo [01:23:50] I'm having a lot of thoughts and feelings about what the future looks like, you know, for me, and. And about what my relationship with the church looks like after this. And, you know, there's. There's a lot to be kind of decided and worked out and figured out and. And that'll take some time.

John Dehlin [01:24:04] Is shutting your channel down completely and kind of leaving this space. Is that on the table for you or not on the table for you?

Nemo [01:24:15] I don't think it's on the table at this point. I don't think so.

John Dehlin [01:24:21] Okay.

Nemo [01:24:21] I'm not. I'm not done talking about this, so.

John Dehlin [01:24:25] Yeah, I mean, I. I think as far as I'm concerned, the worst thing the church did for themselves is excommunicate me because it basically guaranteed I was not gonna let go of this bone. That's just how it was for me. You don't excommunicate me to Silence me. That's not how it works.

Nemo [01:24:40] Yeah, well, we'll see. We'll see how they react. But I certainly, I certainly won't be shutting down the channel the moment I'm excommunicated. That's not, that's not on the cards. Yeah, yeah, it's not gonna silence me, that's for sure.

John Dehlin [01:24:52] Well, I just like the idea of reclaiming the term Mormon, especially now that Russell M. Nelson has said it's a victory for Satan. Why can't we call ourselves Mormon?

Nemo [01:25:01] Yeah, yeah, I could just keep it, you know, and, and, yeah, to that point, people have often kind of criticized me just based off the fact that I'm called Nemo the Mormon, just because I think his whole thing is silly when it comes to the name Mormon. I just think it makes no sense. So there's no reason I couldn't just keep it.

John Dehlin [01:25:19] Yeah.

Nemo [01:25:20] So I don't, I don't think a rebrand is on the cards of, you know, emo, the exmo, or whatever people are suggesting. There's an entire thread on Reddit. I think, of people's suggestions for what I should call myself, and it's quite amusing to see, you know, people's suggestions and things like that, and, and they're having some fun with it, but I don't think it's going to change.

John Dehlin [01:25:41] Yeah. Okay, so kind of coming to kind of some final thoughts. There's this weird dynamic in Mormon Church leadership where when the current prophet gets super old and kind of feeble and close to death, that kind of the next prophet waiting in the wings, the next apostle, sorry, waiting in the wings, will sort of jam through some policy changes or some behaviors, while the, While the current prophet's kind of an invalid so that the, the next prophet won't get tagged with some unsavory behavior. And since the Mormon Church just did that recently, it's. It's pretty much guaranteed that now that Russell Nelson is aging and he's about to die, he just turned 100. And we know Down H. Oaks is the biggest homophobic transphobe in the history of Mormonism. We're pretty sure that this new transgender policy that the church just jammed through was. Has Elder Down H. Oaks fingerprints all over it so that he won't have to take the blame for that when he becomes prophet in a few weeks or however soon it will be. That sort of begs the question, do you have a sense for whether. And we know that it takes apostolic approval to a past to. To excommunicate a high profile member of the Church. Because the church is certainly going to have some blowback in response to this excommunication, particularly in the uk, but not only in the uk. So that sort of begs the question, do you believe that your excommunication is a Nelson thing? Is it an Oaks thing? Or do you have other theories as to what pushed them over the edge and who's behind it? It's almost always an apostle who's behind it. M. Russell Ballard was behind mine. I'm wondering if you have a theory about who's behind yours.

Who Drove the Excommunication Decision

Nemo [01:27:43] I think it's Oakes. I think he's the. If it had to be any of them, it has to be him because he's the only one that has sufficient reason to be upset with me to that extent. I, I think there are other things at play as well. My bishop changed and the bishop I currently have is not in a position to advocate for me in the same way as my old bishop was. I think they know. I think they've done the calculation. I think they've realized that lest I become the UK media's go to guy on Mormonism, they've got to get rid of it now. But that won't stop me being the UK media's go to guy on Mormonism because they're not going to go to church because the church won't give them an honest answer. But I will. So that's why they come to me. You know, certain individuals when they were reacting to my lad Bible appearance and you know, pulling it apart and saying things about me, I've had it reported that essentially what came through was or why didn't they ask us? Why didn't they speak to us about the church? And ultimately it's because I'm the person that's willing to give the honest answer on beh on behalf of the Church. The church itself won't and its defenders won't. It takes someone who's willing to be critical to, to kind of get to the nub of. Of the Church.

John Dehlin [01:29:02] Yeah. So you think it's Oaks. Do you think it was any particular actions that. That pushed him over the top? Do you.

Nemo [01:29:09] Do you think it could be Texas? Could be lad Bible and the BBC. I mean the BBC interview. The church, you know, is not a fan of the BBC. Ever since John Sweeney made Holland look bad, they were really not happy with that. They sent a firm to go and lobby the BBC and, and hand in complaints and stuff. So yeah, I, I think seeing me on the BBC has scared them.

John Dehlin [01:29:40] Yeah.

Nemo [01:29:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:42] All Right, Here's a comment from Eric Loftahl. He says, don't give up Nemo. Keep studying Mormonism. And John, please continue with more LDS discussions. With Nemo on board, we do plan on continuing the LDS discussion series. You can find that on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts and there's a YouTube playlist on Morm Stories podcast channel called LDS Discussions. Julia created a slide for us to talk about a recent push in terms of training church leadership around membership councils. I'll just read it. A recent confidential training was released to Mormon bishops and stake presidents on the topic of membership councils. The training was given by none other than second in line Prophet sir and revelator and future prophet D H Oaks. In the training, Oaks acknowledges the significant decline in membership councils. Thank you very much. You're welcome, Church. He acknowledges the decline and the training overall seems to be calling upon leaders to hold more of these membership councils. Because this training was copyrighted by Intellectual Reserve, the training cannot be shared in full. But we'll share a summary which is that membership councils are an essential step in repentance for serious sins by endowed persons. These endowed members cannot repent by themselves. Church action is required for repentance taken towards the individual and it's not a punishment. Instead it's an essential catalyst for change. According to the training, these membership councils reintroduce these individuals to the covenant path. Welcome to the welcome again to the Covenant path. Nemo, what changes do you anticipate this disciplinary council will inspire in you?

Nemo [01:31:35] I don't think many. I can't, I can't think of any at the moment, to be honest with you.

John Dehlin [01:31:42] What about, honestly though, in seriousness, what about like, what about you doing a spiritual inventory and, and a moral inventory and, and considering whether you're in, in the wrong, the Church is in the right, you're doing more harm than good to God's one true church and you need to step back, fall in line and stop kicking against the pricks as they say in the Book of Mormon, and fighting against God's chosen prophets.

Nemo [01:32:13] I have believing members of the Church who are in touch with me fairly regularly and I use them as a sort of yardstick. So if they start telling me, hey, you're a bit far here, yeah, obviously they're nuanced people, they're people that understand the issues. But I kind of use that as a sort of guide for when I am getting it wrong or maybe it tones off or these sorts of things, right. So I am self reflective about this. And so that's one of the things that does shock me about this, I'm not massively surprised that it's happening, but at the same time I'm a bit surprised it's happening now, given the feedback from my church leaders, was that I wasn't heading towards disciplinary action and I didn't see my behavior as particularly escalating in any way.

John Dehlin [01:33:07] Yeah.

Nemo [01:33:08] So I was kind of on a bit of a. I mean, my, my trajectory in terms of popularity or whatnot was certainly on the rise and probably is still on the rise a bit in terms of like bad Bible reaching out and other stuff like that. I was getting a bigger platform. But the core message of what I'm saying, I don't think has changed particularly or got particularly worse or more drastic or anything.

John Dehlin [01:33:32] What about you're just spiritually in error yourself?

Nemo [01:33:37] Oh, it could be. But wouldn't that be for my priesthood leaders to point out before they just threatened to take my membership off from me?

John Dehlin [01:33:44] Yeah.

Nemo [01:33:45] And they've never pointed to anything I'm spiritually in error over. They want me to engage in moral relativism, which Todd Christofferson has taught against. We're not meant to do that. You know, the truth is the truth, it's right or it's wrong, all these sorts of things. The Mormon Church is actually very binary in its teachings, and I'm following from that perspective, that very binary set of standards and seeing that the brethren fall short of them. And that needs to be mentioned. The fact that no one has received church discipline over the SEC scandal, but I'm receiving church discipline for calling out the SEC scandal, amongst other things, is a deep problem with our church.

John Dehlin [01:34:25] Not just that there's thousands of pedophiles in the Mormon Church, thousands of members of the church that have committed financial fraud and all sorts of heinous crimes, rape, abuse that the Mormon Church has protected, not excommunicated, and even offered legal support to protect them and to cover up their crimes and to keep local law enforcement officers from being able to investigate and prosecute those crimes. So the Mormon Church treats rapists and pedophiles and child abusers better than it's treating you an honest, conscientious critic. I think that's just objectively true.

Nemo [01:35:06] What was it, $300,000 they offered to. To one victim to keep them quiet about something or other. Right? Yeah, They've not. They've not offered me that scale of money to stop talking about this.

John Dehlin [01:35:17] Yeah, yeah. Really quickly, I want to ask everyone to some. Please subscribe to Nemo. The Mormon the YouTube channel that helps Nemo. While you're at it, please subscribe to this channel Mormon Stories Podcast like this episode. Share it. It'll help with the algorithms. Also watch Nemo's own dedicated broadcast about this We've got at least one critical comment. English Bob, Right. Nemo felt that he was Teflon coded. He wasn't. In reality, the BBC interview was a gate crash. You were not accurate with your comments and you were overly critical. Nemo, what do you say to English Bob?

Nemo [01:35:55] Well, there's some follow up from English Bob in the comments and I believe his criticism is that I said that children are forced to pay tithing. That isn't exactly what I said. I said that children, when they're baptized at the age of 8, enter into a covenant that they were then going to give 10% of their income to the church for life. Which is true because they set themselves in in motion on a path that leads to paying 10 of their income to church for the rest of their life until they choose to stop or leave. That's just objectively true. But you know, I'll take that on board if you didn't think it was a good interview. That's good feedback. Thank you. And you know, I don't get everything right. And the thing I want people to take away from this more than anything is if, if you look at me and see a slightly confused, emotionally stunted 27 year old English guy who's just trying to do his best, then you're probably seeing who I am. I don't get everything right. My decisions aren't always logical. My, my feelings about wanting to stay in the church aren't necessarily logical. I try my best to be logical when it comes to the facts presented in front of me and whether people lied or not, whether people were being honest or dishonest, whether people were doing what the church teaches that they should do. In that element of my life, I feel I can be very objective and critical and sort of critical thinking. And that's what people seem to like about my channel when it comes to my personal decision to want to remain a member of this church and all the motivations behind that and all those other things. Your guess is as good as mine. Sometimes I'm just acting on, on how I feel and what I feel is the right thing to do there. So yeah, don't expect perfection from me, please, because I don't claim to speak for God.

John Dehlin [01:37:26] Beautiful Liz writes. Liz, Mathia writes. John, you and I are about the same age. Sorry Liz, for That were we as articulate as nemo at 27? I don't think so. I think I was still saying whatever every other sentence. Thanks for that, Liz. Aaron, another critical comment. Brother Nemo, keep the faith, stay humble and your testimony of Jesus Christ. Do not listen to Brother John's speculative language who has total disregard and luck, he said luck of respect for the Lord's apostles. I think he means lack of respect for the Lord's apostles. What say you to Aaron Ariho?

Nemo [01:38:07] Oh, I don't, I don't know. I think you can respect individuals without having to respect their ideas or their behavior. And I certainly, I can't speak for you, John, but I don't respect the behavior of the senior leaders and the sort of pedestal that they've put themselves on over the years. It doesn't mean that I wish ill on them in any way. And I'm sure you'd agree there, right? You don't have to wish ill on people or lack respect for their them as, you know, other human beings. You just don't have to. You don't have to respect their ideas, their opinions and their behavior.

John Dehlin [01:38:43] Yeah, well, that's great. There's a really important way you're asking people to support and help you for those who want to help. But before we get there, I'm going to ask you just one more question that I know you're going to hate when Sam Yong or others have come to me about their excommunication. Jeremy, Kate Kelly. One thing, including my own experience that was very real is there's like this initial adrenaline rush and you almost feel like animated by the church's threat of disciplinary council. But I don't congratulate people when they get that letter because what I've experienced is the disciplinary counselor, the excommunic excommunication process to be psychologically violent. I don't know any other way to describe it. It's. It's cutting you off. It's labeling you in your community as a bad, horrible, apostate person. It's cutting you off not just from your community, stamping a scarlet E on your chest and on your forehead for all your fellow saints throughout the country and throughout the world and in according to Mormon Church doctrine and belief. It's literally damning you to the Mormon equivalent of hell, where you won't be able to be with your spouse. And if you have any kids or your siblings or parents or grandparents or whatever, it's condemning you to the equivalent of Mormon hell for eternity. So it's A very psychologically violent and socially violent act. I don't congratulate people when this happens. And by almost all accounts, the friends of mine who have been excommunicated underestimated how sad, disturbing, violent and traumatic it was going to be for them. So I don't want to predict that for you, but I do want to ask you how you're feeling, if you're even willing or able to share how you're really feeling about all this and how you anticipate feeling when you show up to that disciplinary council.

Processing the Outcome and Looking Ahead

Nemo [01:41:04] Right now, I feel like I failed. I feel like I failed to toe the line. Maybe I did get a bit cocky, you know, maybe I did push my luck too far. Clearly I have in some way, and I wasn't. I just. Either my leaders were lying to me when they said it wasn't leading towards excommunication, or I failed to check in with them sufficiently or whatever it was, but my goal was to avoid this. So I've failed in that. That sense. And now, again, the pragmatism has kicked in. I'm like, right, well, this is my situation now. Can I fight it? Can I prevent it from happening? I'm going to do my best. I'm going to push back. I think the emotion and everything will kick in. Yeah, the emotion will kick in afterwards. And that's when I'm going to have to really kind of deal with it and cope with it. And, you know, I think I'll take up groups on their offers of some counseling or some therapy or whatever and go into a place where I can sit and talk through my feelings and my emotions and try and process it in a. In a healthy way. It's just difficult for me to do as a British man, but I'm gonna do my best to kind of deal with that. And, yeah, I'm taking a break just before this weekend. I won't be in the country. I'm going away. Me and my wife are going away and we're gonna spend a weekend away. I'm just gonna try and not think about this for. For a few days and. Yeah, but at the moment, I think a lot of that adrenaline that you were kind of talking about is kicking in in terms of. I have to prepare my. With the church. I have to prepare myself to defend myself from these accusations that I don't necessarily know the nature of or. Or know the specifics of, I should say. So, yeah, I'm having to. I'm having to kind of prepare myself for that, which is. I'm riding through all this on that, but I'm aware there's a crash on the other side of that. And I'm just doing my best to exercise and eat well during this time to try and keep myself from sort of well grounded and stable. And I think that's what everyone should do when something like this happens to them, is make sure you don't give up on the things that. That keep you healthy, like exercise and eating well.

John Dehlin [01:43:19] Brilliant. Well, we definitely want you to take care of yourself and to stay as healthy as you can. All right, so people want to know how they can help. And I think there's at least one way that people who are still in the church can tangibly and meaningfully help. Do you want to let them know how they can do that?

Nemo [01:43:41] Well, we're going to go back to Fairview, Texas for a moment, folks. If you remember Fairview, Texas, you'll remember that the church thought it was very appropriate to bombard the town manager with thousands of emails. 13,000 emails he received because they felt it was appropriate to mobilize the people that supported them to tell the town council that they want a temple. Those people have no legitimate say in what happens in a small town. No more than I did, necessarily. I got brought in from outside as well. It's really up to the people of the town to engage with town officials. But those people felt they had, you know, some skin in the game. So if you feel you have some skin in the game, I'm not going to give you my stake president's email because that would be disrespectful to him. But I will give you this email nemois innocent mail.com if you feel like this is something that shouldn't be happening. If you feel you've got skin in this game, then please do send your thoughts and opinions to that. You don't have to be a member of the church because you didn't have to be a resident affair view. You just have to be someone who feels like they've got some skin in the game. You feel like you've got an opinion on this, send it to that I will then forward it to my state president and he will feel the weight of the support that there is for me. Hopefully all three of you will email and I'll just be deeply embarrassed. So whichever outcome, I've set that email up, so feel free to send things over.

John Dehlin [01:45:00] All right. Again, that's Nemois innocent gmail dot com. Yeah, Nemo, do you want to share whether you plan on Bringing any witnesses to testify on your behalf at your disciplinary council?

Nemo [01:45:11] Yeah, there are some individuals. I'm not going to name them. They're going to come in and speak on my behalf. My wife is the one I will name, will come in and speak on my behalf also. And they're going to speak to. Well, you know, again, my state president said, you know, can I know the names of these people? Can I know where they are? And can you tell me, you know, sort of what their relevance is, what the relevance of the information they may be able to provide is? And I told him, well, I can't speak to the relevance because I can't. I can't speak to the relevance to something which I can't identify. I don't know what they're meant to be relevant to because I don't know the exact nature of the accusations. I don't know exactly what I'm accused of. I don't know what comments I'm meant to be defending. So all I can do is say that they will be able to speak to my effect, the effect of my communications on active members of the church. They are active believe members who will be speaking up for me. And then my wife will be able to speak to my character and my intent because I am in charged. I'm charged with, in one case, intent to do something. And I think it's quite rich of them to pull me up on intent given how much time we spent arguing over the intent of church leaders and how they use that as a defense. So we'll see how that plays out. But yeah. So the people will be coming and speaking for me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:23] All right. Well, Nemo, in all seriousness, I have admired you for a long, long time. There aren't many creators in this space, and I don't know anyone who has done the. The thoughtful and the powerful and the consistent and the effective work that you have, especially in such a short amount of time, especially as young as you are. And I consider you a dear friend. I admire you and I look up to you and I'm really sorry this is happening. But I can also tell you it'll be hard, but I anticipate you're going to emerge just like Obi Wan Kenobi. Darth Vader strikes him down and he comes back stronger. What I would anticipate would be that this is only going to make you stronger emotionally, psychologically, and with your. With your platform. In the end, that's. That's the good wishes and the hope that I'm going to be Putting out there, you know, as this happens.

Nemo [01:47:32] Thank you. Nice.

John Dehlin [01:47:34] Yeah. All right, well, tell us the. Tell us the email address one more time.

Supporters, Contact Details, and Farewell

Nemo [01:47:40] Nemois innocent gmail.com. i'm surprised that was available, actually. You know, clearly no one's questioned the innocence of a clownfish before. So Nemo's. One of my favorite comments, actually, that I've seen throughout this entire debacle is someone said that they turned to their wife and said their ex communicating Nemo and their 4 year old started crying and they said, oh, no, not the fish. The fish is fine. So I'm sorry that your God was upset.

John Dehlin [01:48:09] Why are you traumatizing little children, Nemo?

Nemo [01:48:12] Yeah, I'm really sorry that child was traumatized by. By this experience. But yeah. So you feel free to send your letters of support there. I'll get a chance to then read them also, and my state president will then receive them and he will know what, you know, what the people think.

John Dehlin [01:48:31] All right. All right, Nemo. Well, again, please subscribe to Nemo, the Mormon YouTube channel. They can donate to you as well, financially to support you, correct?

Nemo [01:48:40] They can indeed. I've just launched channel memberships. Ooh, there's one tier. It's like $2 a month. So if you can't afford to send anything else, but you can afford to give me the equivalent of half a cup of coffee a month, then sign up to that. You'll get a little thing by your name and you'll get a little jammy dodger with a tape here in it that you can send me because, you know, I'm just delightfully creative like that.

John Dehlin [01:49:00] That's like a fifth of the cost of a cup of coffee. At least a latte in the United States. Oh, really?

Nemo [01:49:06] I don't drink coffee, so I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:49:09] All right, Nemo. Well, we love you. Keep going. We're behind you. We're grateful for you. And if you want, we of course welcome you back to let us know how things go after the disciplinary council happens.

Nemo [01:49:23] Definitely. Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [01:49:25] All right, big thanks to Julia for helping with production and. And Maven for helping out with the comments. All the Open Stories foundation staff, Gerardo Brooklyn, etc. And we love you, Brit Vengers. And yeah, Nemo, you take care. Be good to each other, everyone. Be kind to each other. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Good luck, Nemo.

Nemo [01:49:50] Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:49:51] Take care, brother.

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