Welcome and Introduction to Marcelo and Sandra

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Sean Dehlin. It's August 23, 2024 and today we have for you a Brazilian Mormon story. Today we are interviewing Marcelo and Sandra Ribeiro. Is that right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:00:16] Did I get it?

John Dehlin [00:00:18] Masomanos?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:00:18] Yes. How do you say it in Portuguese? They say hibeiro.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] Okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:00:24] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] And they are the co hosts of

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:00:27] a YouTube channel called Mormonismo San Censura which is uncensored Mormonism. And what it's about, it's about mostly telling the story, the history the church doesn't want us to know. And we also do some interviews, heavily inspired on your show.

John Dehlin [00:00:45] So it's like a, it's kind of like a Brazilian Mormon stories basically of sorts.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:00:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] Fun like 70 plus episodes.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:00:51] Is that correct?

John Dehlin [00:00:52] Yes, yeah, yeah. But most importantly, this is just, you know, I don't know if folks know this, but Brazil is in the top three in the world. Top three countries for the most number of Mormons of record. Now how many active Mormons? I, I, it's probably still top three.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:01:10] Probably.

John Dehlin [00:01:11] Yeah, but it's, you know, it's one of the three largest Mormon populated countries in the world. So it, but, but as you were saying Sandra, earlier, it's not just about broken resilience, it's just about converts to the Mormon church from countries outside the United States.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:01:28] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:01:29] We have so many of them.

John Dehlin [00:01:31] Yeah. So today we're going to be just doing a traditional threeish hour Mormon story and we always like to begin with intentions. So do each of you just kind of want to share why you wanted to do this interview? Maybe Sandra, we, you can go first.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:01:47] Yeah, sorry. So the reason we are here and sharing our story with you guys is because we have so many members of the church that convert to it as an adult and become like very faithful to it, do everything like playing by the book, doing everything.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:02:12] And one day we discovered that the church is not what it says. It is a struggle and people need, they need support. Like they need a place, a safe place to share their stories and see that they are not alone with this. So I think the main reason is like to save those people that is once was a member of the church or no longer believe in the church and is a struggle to thinking they are alone. They are not alone. We are here, you know, and we have this channel in Portuguese because we know not only Brazilians, but people all over the globe that has the same story. We also have a lot of Brazilian here in Utah that no Longer believes and still think they are alone.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] Yeah. And there's also a lot of humans, Mormons, but Brazilians who are Mormon, who don't know all the facts because the church has not been honest with its history. And that's another probably part of your motivation. How about you, Marcelo?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:03:32] For me, John, I think we have a story that's a little bit out of the norm of what the show, your show usually have. Right. Because we are converts, we covert as adults and we're in a. In a different environment outside of Utah in the US and your show was such a lifeline for us in the beginning of our transition. And just seeing people sharing their stories, you. You don't resonate with the entire story, but there's one point here and there. Oh, okay. I understand that. I feel like they do and you know that it's similar to my experience. So I think just adding a little a different story, a different, you know, adding to the diversity pool, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] Yeah, no, in a very meaningful way. Every story that gets told reaches an important audience that it needs to reach.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:04:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] And especially when we do a country like Brazil, it's going to reach a bunch of Brazilians that would not be reached otherwise, but also Latinos and again, people from all over the world. So I'm thrilled you're here. Thanks for coming. Jump in. So who wants to, who wants to tell how their Mormon story began first? And we'll kind of, we'll go back and forth until you guys, your stories merge and then we'll have you tell the story together. So who wants to go first?

Marcelo's Childhood and Early Life in Brazil

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:04:48] Marcela, I can start. Yeah. So speaking a little bit of my childhood. Right. Because I baptized in the church when I was 18, so until then I didn't have any contact with the church. But I think there are points in my childhood that will play a role later.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:05:04] Right. So I had a pretty normal childhood for a Brazilian. Right. I was raised in a Catholic family, what we call a non practicing Catholic just by name. But I remember being to a Catholic mass maybe two, three times in my life and I would always like almost pass out because we would always get there late and there were no more seats on the pews and I had to stand up. And I used to have a little bit of a heart issue when I was younger that I couldn't stand up for too long, my blood pressure would go down anyway. So I never really even watched the whole mess in my life.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:05:41] I've been to a couple of baptisms and things like that, but really not non Practicing. But that was the formation of my beliefs. My beliefs in God, right. That was my view of God growing up, right. So my family was from the northeast of the country, not a town people, big city called Fortaleza. Then they married and they moved down to another city like three days drive distance. I think it's 2,500 miles distance in the state of Sao Paulo, a city called Santos, which is the biggest port in Latin America. It used to be, at least, I don't know if it still is, but a big, decent sized city, right.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:06:26] And. But I grew up away from my extended family, right. So really it was just my parents and me and my brother growing up. So did well in school. I was actually, I was thinking about this when I was, when we were driving here. I actually skipped one year of school because in Brazil you typically go to preschool for a couple years, well, one year, and then kindergarten equivalent to kindergarten. And then you start in first grade. And so I did that first preschool year and I was doing great and I was loving it. And then when the next year school was about to start and my.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:07:06] I asked my parents, so what am I going to do there? You know, the same school. Oh, you're going to do the same things. You know, activities and coloring and, you know, you know, kids stuff. I was like, no, I want to learn how to read and write. I don't want to do that again.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:07:20] And funny, because so I was, I started first grade when I was six then, right. One year early. And the public system wouldn't take me because they were afraid I wouldn't keep up. So I had to go to a private school for a few months to prove that I could keep up. Right.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:07:37] And then once they saw that I could, then I got sent back to the public system, which is kind of funny. In Brazil, you typically don't want your kids to go to public school if you can't afford a private school just because of quality, right.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:07:53] So, and funny thing is that that was the first time in my life that I. The desire to learn English showed up, right. Someone came and made an advertisement to the students, right. About English school. And we took flyer home to show our parents and we were supposed to bring the next day the authorization to start the course or anything which would be paid. And my parents were poor. They couldn't afford, they couldn't afford the private school I was going to in first place.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:08:22] I was going just because I needed to show that I could. Right. Keep up. And I remember my mom saying, you don't even Know Portuguese yet? Why do you want to learn English? But that was at 6, at 5 years old or 6, first time I want to learn English. I think it's cool. Know another language. Right. And that, that will play a role later in my life. Right. So yeah. So normal Catholic kid, kind of smart, maybe for that time, wanting to learn. I always had this desire to learn and to, you know, to achieve and to do things. Right.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] Yeah. So it seems like there was some family turmoil that led you to kind of consider Mormonism. Do you want to talk about that?

Family Struggles and Discovering the Church

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:09:11] Yes. That would be later, Right. In my teenage years. So my. So my family situation, right. My father kind of an abusive father. Not very physically abusive, but like very demanding. Right. And my mom very submissive. Right. So her function in life was to fulfill his desires. Right. Keep the house clean and everything in order and everything. He wasn't very present in my life.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:09:39] And then it got to a point where so he would drink a lot and he had other women that he would see. And at one point my mom found out about it and they had this big fight, big marital crisis and they decided to go back to the Northeast where they were from.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:10:02] At that point, I was 17. I was able to finish high school in that place where I considered my home. I was born there and grew up there. The other place is vacation place. It's not my home. We go to Fortaleza and really that was devastating for me. I remember we drove all that distance. So three days on the road and I cried. The three days going back, I was so upset because 17 years old, my first love. So I was dating this girl that I really loved and she actually pops up in my story later friends. So it was top of the world. And now all gets pulled from underneath my feet and I go to this other town, other city that I don't like. It's super hot. So, you know, my family situation was a mess.

John Dehlin [00:10:57] Sounds like prime missionary material.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:11:01] Oh yeah, definitely. Then I started making friends in this new place. My parents are very, very absent at that point. So we were living in an apartment that was my uncle's, my father's brother apartment. So he rented it to us. And my grandma on my mom's side had passed away a few years back, so my parents were renovating grandma's house so we could move in there. Right. But meanwhile, and that took months.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:11:35] And during that time they were working their relationship, trying to fix things, very self involved. And we, me and my brother, I was 17 at that point, my brother was 14. And we were basically living by ourselves, right? For it would go days without our parents showing up in the house.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:11:55] So we started making friends. And the very first time I saw the missionaries was on a bus, right? I was going downtown. I saw a couple white American dudes, white shirts, neckties, speaking in English. I was like, oh, those are embassy employees. Maybe I don't think embassy employees would ride a bus in that city. But anyway, a few months later, the cousin of a friend of mine came back from her mission and went to spend a few days with this cousin that was my friend, and she introduced all of us to the church, right? We were a group of friends. We were always hanging out together, doing things together, going to the beach and whatnot.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:12:40] So the missionaries came and taught all of us, and I think, like, more than 10 of us all baptized within a month. So I remember attending, you know, participating in the missionary discussions, and some of my friends were. They were very touched in a very strong way. Would cry and feel the spirit very strongly. I never had that experience.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:13:07] And for the longest time, that really frustrated me and made me feel less than right. The others, why can't I feel the spirit that way? And then what the missionaries told me and what my patriarchal blessing actually helped me understand at that time was it was very interesting because my patriarchal blessing says that I studied all these things before coming to earth. Right? And it was that. That's how I felt when the missionaries. Missionaries were teaching me. Yeah, that makes sense. It's almost like I'm just remembering something that I knew before. So that was very interesting.

The Plan of Salvation and Gaining a Testimony

John Dehlin [00:13:46] So the theology of us living, the Mormon theology of us living as spirits before we came to this earth resonated with you, the plan of salvation, right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:13:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:58] Yeah. What else were some of the main. The top three teachings that the missionaries taught that. That you really loved, or was it more social, or was it both social and the teachings?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:14:11] As far as the teachings, John, I think something that really was interesting for me was, well, yeah, the whole. Our timeline as spirits and coming to earth and then receiving a reward based on our behavior and what we did here. Right? And I think meritocracy, right. In the plan of salvation made total sense to me. And it's very interesting. One thing is that I firmly believed in reincarnation, right. And I remember just weeks before the missionaries came, having this debate with friends, just, you know, down at the.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:14:52] On a bench there in the park, just chatting and talking about this, and I'm like, very authoritatively saying this. There's gotta be reincarnation how else could you explain that? People are born rich and some are poor, some are born with an illness, some die early, some live forever if it's not the result of something they did before.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:15:16] How is it fair that not everybody start at the same point in this life? Right. And then reincarnation is what explained that. And I was like, there's no way. That's the only explanation. When the missionaries taught me the plan of salvation, all that stuff, and they gave a different version, but in their explanation, everybody started at the same starting point, so that made sense. That's fair. Right. And we're going to talk here in our story, being fair and trying to be at least fair, it's a big deal for me. Right. And that plays a role in my whole life and in my Mormon story as well.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:15:54] So. Yeah, so that made sense. Right. And my family was a mess at that point. So the church came in and gave me structure, gave me role models, gave me goals in life. Right. So I finished high school and we went to this city where I hated and I spent one year of my. I wasted a year of my life. I didn't go to college. I didn't even think about it. I don't want to do anything. I just want to be mad about my life.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:16:24] And then the church came and put everything in order, and that's how I started moving forward again. So that was important at that point.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] Okay. And so that makes perfect sense. And it almost sounds like the church was a good thing in your life at that point in time.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:16:45] Oh, definitely was, yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:47] So you got baptized. Was that a tough decision? Were your parents happy? Were they sad? Do you want to talk about the actual baptism?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:16:57] Yeah, of course. So my parents didn't care much. Again, they were so self involved. They didn't attend my baptism, actually. Yeah. And I remember going there and there were 20 or 25 people that I'd never seen before, except for the missionaries and my friend, the one that introduced me to the church.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:17:19] And actually, as I said, a group of friends were all baptized one after the other. And the day I baptized my brother and my best friend at the time, who was kind of the leader of the gang of friends. Right. He was going to baptize too, but he had some more serious sins that he needed either area presidency or first presidency approval to baptize.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:17:44] Right. And so he had to reschedule. And I was like, oh, that changes a lot. And I really thought about, you know, postponing mine too, because, I mean, I had been talking about Church for two weeks. That was it.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:17:58] I've been to church a couple times. I don't know anything about this church. Right. But it just felt good. Did not have a testimony. And later I had to really fight and find one.

John Dehlin [00:18:14] So when you, when you got baptized, you would say you didn't have a testimony?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:18:17] Oh, definitely not. I had the good feelings, right. That missionaries identify as the Spirit. But no, I had a calling right after. We can talk about in a minute as a. As a ward mission leader.

John Dehlin [00:18:30] That's so weird because as someone who's a brand new member who isn't sure they totally have a testimony, the first calling you get is to be in charge for the ward or congregation of converting other people to the church. It's actually brilliant of the church to do that.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:18:48] Oh, yeah, definitely. I'll tell you in a second. But yeah, the baptism, I didn't know exactly what I was doing, but I have a very strong thing with me. If I give you my word, John, I will not break it.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:19:02] I mean, I really can't do it right. For some real serious reason. And I gave the missionaries my word that I was going to baptize that day, June 12, 1994. And I'm doing it. It doesn't matter who else is not doing right. So me and my brother baptized that day and it was magical, really.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:19:21] You know, being lowered in the water. There wasn't just as, you know, a dive, a normal dive. I felt different. The whole emotional thing, right. Wow. I'm finally finding a tribe right, where I was completely lost for a year. And these are good people. This is going to change my life. It's going to be good, right? So that today I understand that. But back then I was like, that was the Spirit, right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:19:46] But yeah, so I baptized and I, like, two weeks after, I think I get called world mission leader. So I'm in charge of a group. I think we had something like six or eight ward missionaries. Some were returned missionaries. I was like, what am I gonna teach these people?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:20:03] And I'm going with the missionaries visiting people that they are teaching, and I'm supposed to bear my testimony. And I'm like, I don't have one. You know, all I could say was like, church is great. I love it. I feel good about it.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:20:18] But again, you know, fairness and honesty, honesty are so big for me. I was like, I have to find a testimony. I have to have one.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] Can I ask about that?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:20:28] Sure.

Reading the Book of Mormon and Getting Baptized

John Dehlin [00:20:29] So the Book of Mormon, did you read it before getting baptized or during this time? And the Narrative of the Lamanites and, you know, the Nephites and the Lehighes coming to America as Jews from the old World. And the whole Book of Mormon narrative about the Nephites and the Lamanites and the Lamanites getting dark skinned. And the curse. Was that at all parts of your study, conversion or those early struggles to get a testimony, or were you just not even aware of that stuff?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:21:01] Well, I read the parts that the missionaries marked on the book. Right. Just as part of the discussions and felt good about it and all that. I don't remember the whole curse thing coming to the front of my mind. I was just reading, like, yeah, I guess that's what happened. Right. But I did buy that. Like, that's the truth. That's a historical story. Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] And so how did you tie that to your own history? Did you think I'm a descendant of the Lamanites and the Nephites or not?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:21:35] No, not really. Again, in Brazil, we are so mixed. It's actually hard to find a real black looking person because we, over the centuries, we mixed up so much. We all brown, right. Portuguese natives, just different shades of brown. So at least for me, there are racist people in Brazil for sure. But for me, it was like, not even part of my psyche.

John Dehlin [00:22:03] You didn't think yourself as a laymanite?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:22:05] No. Wow. That's never. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:08] Sandra, you're also shaking Brazil.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:22:10] We don't talk about that. Like, seen as, as, you know. Lemonade. No.

John Dehlin [00:22:16] That's weird because all seems like all the other Latin American countries do call themselves laminates. I didn't know Brazil didn't think of themselves that way.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:22:24] Like this part of, like race. In Brazil, for example, people will consider Marcellus white.

John Dehlin [00:22:35] Okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:22:36] Yeah. So it's. It's hard to like. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] Because if Lamanites are dark skinned, then you wouldn't identify as dark skinned. So you wouldn't identify as a Lamanite. Is that right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:22:52] Right.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:22:52] It's like dark skin is black. Black. Black.

John Dehlin [00:22:56] Okay. In Brazil.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:22:57] Yes.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:22:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] Okay. Got it. Okay. Okay, that's good. Okay, so ward mission leader, right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:23:03] And then I'm like, I need to have a testimony. I cannot say I have without having it because that's dishonest.

John Dehlin [00:23:09] Right.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:23:10] So I couldn't do it. So I started my, my struggle, right. To have a testimony. So I would pray and pray.

John Dehlin [00:23:16] And I just want to know this is after your baptism, not before.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:23:18] Oh, yeah, right, yes.

John Dehlin [00:23:20] I'll get baptized then. Try to get a testimony. Okay, sorry.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:23:23] Keep going. So I'm talking with the missionaries who taught me and asking for their help and all that, right? And I'm like. And they're trying to convince me, right? All those feelings you had during the discussions and the feelings you had during your baptism, all those subtle things, right? That's your testimony. That's what the church teaches, right? You don't need a lightning striking you or anything like that or a vision or anything.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:23:48] And I remember one day the missionaries came, and we. So again, we are in the apartment alone. My parents are doing their thing and renovating the other house and all that. And we talked, and the missionaries decided, let's kneel. Kneel down and pray one at a time. So one missionary did, the other one did, and it was the last one.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:24:08] And I finished that. And kind of I felt my goosebump or something, but I'm like, no, I don't want it to be my brain playing tricks with me. I want something that I cannot explain otherwise. And I myself, you know, right. I didn't. No, that was not it, right? But then the missionaries are coming, going out, and, you know, one of them hold my hand, and he says something like.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:24:34] I can't remember the words now, but he said something like, it will come. At the time. At the time of the Lord, it will come. And I felt something so strong at that moment, just internal, right? And I was like. And then they left. I didn't say anything. But then internally, I was just like, that's it. I can't explain that feeling. Right. That I had. And I think it was, you know, the Lord talking to me through that missionary. And there you go. For years, that was my initial testimony. And everything else was just like, always feeling good about things. Always feeling good about things.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:25:08] And. And it's like my patriarchal blessing said, right? I studied these things, so it's just like, remembering. So it's nothing too drastic for me. Never was, right? And the church convinced me that, yeah, that's also a testimony, right? And then.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:25:22] And it's funny, Santa will tell her how she obtained her testimony, right? And forever when she would tell me how she had her testimony, I was like, that's weak, right? That's not really a testimony. And for me, like, mine was like, it.

John Dehlin [00:25:39] Why are you so judgy, Sandra?

Sandra Ribeiro [00:25:42] Because, yeah, it doesn't look like, you know, a real testimony,

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:25:49] but we only find out much later when we're talking about this. And, like, you know what? Every time you tell, you know, and we telling each other, I never thought your testimony was that strong. The experience Right. Was like, you could call that experience a testimony, but.

John Dehlin [00:26:04] Yeah. How influential was it that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was located in the United States and that these missionaries were Americans? Is that a form of influence to a Brazilian, at least in your experience or not? Is it a positive thing? Is it a neutral thing? Is it a negative thing?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:26:26] I think you could say it's a positive thing for the church. It helps to get converts, for sure, because it's a. An exotic aspect of it. Right. Everybody in Brazil has some sort of English in high school, for example. But it's just like here, you end high school here, you know how much Spanish you really know in Brazil? It's similar with English. Yeah, I had English, but I don't really speak it. Right. But there is that thing that's so cool, right? I speak English. You would be walking down as missionaries down the street and kids running around, hey, speak English. Speak English. So it brings that exotic aspect, for sure. And for me in particular, remember when I was six, that's when I wanted to learn English. Oh, yeah, that's cool. I want to.

John Dehlin [00:27:12] Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. All right, well, let's jump to Sandra and let's talk about your conversion. Is that all right?

Sandra's Background and Conversion Story

Sandra Ribeiro [00:27:18] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:27:19] All right, Go for it.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:27:20] So in my case, okay, I. I grew up in this Catholic family. All my family are Catholic. And I grew up in this small city that I could say that 95% of the population are Catholic and also very conservative. And then my parents, even though they're not so strict with the church, they was really light about it. They make sure all their kids fulfill their faith covenants, right? Like baptism and first communion and what else? The other one is like confirmation. I did all of that. All my siblings did that, went to the church.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] I.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:28:16] One of us that was really active in a church, I participate with kids group we called Crusades, Little Crusades. I participate in youth choir. I consider, like, I was pretty active in the church, Catholic church. And then I had, like, before met the missionaries and the church. I already have all this concept of, like, Noah's Ark and Adam and Eve and then all those stories, right? My parents and the church taught me I already have this conception about chastity that sex is just for couples. There are marriage that sets.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:29:21] So when. When church came with, this wasn't like something new. It was like, okay, I already know about it. And then, yeah, so patriarchy. I was like. Like, I believed all of that. That was the right way that life's supposed to be Like I will grow up and then I will find a guy that I'll marry him, have kids, family life as it is.

John Dehlin [00:29:51] Are Brazilian women who are married generally stay at home moms or do in general? Both husbands and wives have jobs when they have kids. Is there a way to.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:30:05] Even in general, both works.

John Dehlin [00:30:07] Okay. Okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:30:08] Yeah, in general. But like where I used to live as a kid, I would say that the majority was like home mom.

John Dehlin [00:30:16] Oh, okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:30:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:17] So that's what you were thinking.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:30:19] Oh yeah. I grew up with this concept.

John Dehlin [00:30:21] Okay, got it.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:30:23] However, then When I was 16, my parents sent me to live with my cousins. With cousins in a big city. Like. Like the, the. The capital of the states. Is the biggest city in the states. And then I from Sierra Brazil. And then I was born in this small city that's called Vallota. And I was sent to live in Fortaleza for a better education. And then I finished my high school there and then go to college. And then I was the first kid in my family to go to college.

John Dehlin [00:31:02] Congrats.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:31:03] Yes, thank you. But during the time I 16, and then I met the church, the missionary. And then when I kind of stopped going to the church and practice the beliefs, you know, I didn't have opportunity when I was living there. And then when I visit my parents, I went sometimes like, nah. And it wasn't a big deal. I didn't felt that not going to church. Oh, I'm Is a sin or I'm doing something bad. No, I just now going to church. But I was like doing everything. I was good to my peers almost. I was fine. Yeah, right. I was fine. Okay. Then the church entered to my life when I was in my early twenties.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] Mormon Church. Mormon Church, yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:32:06] When I was in my early 20s, when I left my cousin's house to live by myself, I found this lady that rents room in the. In her house for adults, single adults. And then she was member of the church. And it was the first thing she said, like her rules. She said, I am Mormon and they are proud to say that they are Mormon at that time.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] How do you say Mormon in Portuguese? Okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:32:44] And then she said, I am Mormon and then I am Christian. And then the only rule I have is if you have a boyfriend, you cannot sleep with him at my house. And that time I did, I did have a boyfriend. It was like. Was a relationship, like long relationship. I would say I was like two and a half years relationship with him. And then was a. I would say my first love.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:33:19] The first person I loved that Better said like that and was great. I respect her religion and found the missionaries come back and forth sometimes for lunch. Because in Brazil, missionaries go for lunch at the members house. And then I have some contact with these missionaries at that time.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:33:48] But yes, I already been educated about, like, Marcelo didn't have much contact. I did. I already have some questions in my head about, you know, things that I don't believe. I. I never liked, for example, confection, confession. When I was like maybe nine years old, I was get ready for like four first communion. And then we supposed to confess our

John Dehlin [00:34:18] sins to the priest.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:34:21] To the priest. And then I didn't know what to say, but I supposed to confess something. I remember thinking in my head, what have I done that could be a sin, right? To confess? And then I don't know, I think I said, like, I was mean with my brother, you know. And then the priest said, okay, three Marys, like, do you know three Mary spray, three fathers pray. And then I was like, make no sense how he knows God will be satisfied with this. And then. And he really forgive me for that. So I never confess. I think I had to confess one more time to do the confirmation when I was 4:15. Yeah. And that's it. I. I never ever confessed other than that because I didn't believe.

John Dehlin [00:35:20] Yeah. Okay. So what made you interested in the Mormon Church and made you want to get baptized?

Sandra Ribeiro [00:35:26] That's a good question. Because it was in a time of my life that I was in a big mess. I don't know if I have a better word for that. So I already had received some missionaries lessons with two missionaries sisters. With two sisters. I love them. They're amazing. And I liked it. Well. Oh, they taught me about the church, I think. Oh, it's great. Okay. You said Joseph Smith. This guy is a prophet. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] Okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:36:11] Right. And then I went to the church. Great church. Great. But I was like dating. I was like so interested in participating. Then year later, I broke up with this boyfriend. It was dramatic. I could say I was betrayed. I felt bad. I was feeling really, really low, you know, Wanted. Not wanted.

John Dehlin [00:36:44] Yeah, yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:36:46] Not wanted. And I was living in this big city by myself, no friends. Because at that time, my friends was his friends.

John Dehlin [00:37:01] Right.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:37:01] And then I learned that I didn't have friends. My family was like, far away.

John Dehlin [00:37:07] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:37:08] And then church came in. The missionaries came.

John Dehlin [00:37:13] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:37:13] And then they started to invite me come to the church and then come for this activity. And that was nice because it was Saturday afternoon, the young adult got together to play volleyball at the church. And then I was so welcome, so welcomed.

John Dehlin [00:37:33] I mean, I'm so torn for both of you. It's almost an identical thing. On the one hand, you could look at it positively and say the Mormon Church was there for both of you when life got really hard and made things better. Gave you friends, gave you community, gave you meaning, gave you purpose, gave you morality, gave you structure. You could look at it that way or you could look at it like the Mormon Church preys upon people when they're in a really vulnerable situation and takes advantage by targeting you when you're down and out, when you're at your lowest. It's almost like both are true.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:38:12] This is why. Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:38:13] The thing is that the whole help. Yeah, you're right. It came in a great moment, was important. The thing is that it has a price.

John Dehlin [00:38:20] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:38:21] Which you're not told up front.

John Dehlin [00:38:22] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:38:23] Right. And the price increases as you go. And it's like boiling the. The frog. Right. You don't. You don't feel it, but you're paying higher and higher and higher of a price.

John Dehlin [00:38:35] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:38:35] And getting in, in our case, at least less and less back.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] Yeah. Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:38:40] Right.

John Dehlin [00:38:41] We'll get there.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:38:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:42] Okay. Were you gonna say something, Sundra?

Sandra Ribeiro [00:38:44] Yeah. This is why I said so many people can resignate.

John Dehlin [00:38:48] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:38:49] With this story.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:38:50] Because church just appear in a. In a time that they need.

John Dehlin [00:38:54] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:38:55] At that time, the church was everything I need.

John Dehlin [00:38:59] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:39:00] You know, I trust, like, Christians. Right. So Christians are good people.

John Dehlin [00:39:07] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:39:07] And then I was living with this lady for a year more, and even though she wasn't a good role model.

John Dehlin [00:39:16] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:39:18] But you know, the missionaries is amazing always. They are like great people. I really like them. Them. And then they came and said, hey, we have this true church. And that right there was like, why true church? They're Christian. Right. So it's another Christian church. For me, it was just another Christian church. But I had to. What's one thing that I had to believe that was this one true church? I was really like, questioning with the missionaries, like always. He had to prove in the Bible that what they're saying about this church do you know, must be something in the Bible, because the Bible was the only book I would believe. And they make a way to show me whatever they are teaching has. In the Bible.

John Dehlin [00:40:14] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:40:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:15] Because Joseph Smith loved the Bible. Right. Okay, keep going.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:40:20] Yeah. What I would say, like that time I didn't have a testimony as well. When I decided to be baptized. What I had was a like critical thinking. Like, say Okay. I have this church offer me a place. They are great Christians. They have, you know, direction, instruction, and then I need a community, I need friends.

John Dehlin [00:40:51] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:40:52] And that they offer me all of that instantly. When I baptized, I had a community.

John Dehlin [00:41:01] Yeah. Yeah. Most conversions to Mormonism are social, I think. Don't you think?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:41:08] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:41:09] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:41:10] There's no way. Especially in a high paced baptism environment like Brazil is and so many other countries. Right. I understand, like in Europe you take months. Right. In other places. But in Brazil, I can. You're challenged in the first discussion to get baptized. Oh, yeah, definitely. I don't know if they still do that, but I remember in my mission we were encouraged to do that. I struggled during doing that. I always struggled with the salesman aspect of the missionary field and any. Throughout my church story. Right. But I mean, when you're in that fast pace, you're baptizing one week, two weeks, there's no way you have a testimony. Right.

John Dehlin [00:41:53] But you do have feelings. And the missionaries tell you what your feelings mean. If you have good feelings, they'll say what those feelings are. What?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:42:02] Oh, the spirit. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:03] The Holy Ghost.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:42:05] Right, The Holy Ghost. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:42:06] How do you say Holy Ghost in Portuguese?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:42:08] Spirit of Santo.

John Dehlin [00:42:09] Yeah, right.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:42:10] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:10] If you have good feelings, that's God saying be Mormon. Right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:42:13] Yeah. As little as they may be. Right. I just felt you smiled. The missionary was funny. That's the Spirit. The Holy Ghost.

Sandra's Testimony and Serving a Mission

John Dehlin [00:42:21] Yeah. There's no other possible interpretation of the feelings other than that the Mormon Church is the true church.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:42:27] Yes.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:42:27] And when they are teaching us, they suggest us, like paying it. Pay attention. When you go to church, when we listen, you know, the speakers and the pulpit and the lessons when we in a class. So pay attention. Maybe the Spirit will talk to you. And then really we do that. We try to like pay attention at least me, right? Paying attention. What is my feeling? Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:42:58] Power of suggestion is strong with those.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:43:01] Oh, yeah. And then what I felt, I felt good. Yeah, I felt good. But I never thought it was a testimony. Because for me a testimony is not only a feeling. Must be something that do not leave me, like questions. It's like for real, you know? So my good feelings was a good feelings.

John Dehlin [00:43:28] So how long did it take you to get a testimony, Sandra?

Sandra Ribeiro [00:43:33] I would say at least almost five years.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] Five years. Okay, okay.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:43:38] It wasn't until I came in. Right? Yes. Okay. Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:43:42] That's for later.

John Dehlin [00:43:45] So did. So did either of you serve missions?

Sandra Ribeiro [00:43:49] Marcelo served mission. I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:43:51] Okay, okay. So Marcelo. Okay, okay. So you, you got Baptized. And it was a positive thing for you at the time?

Sandra Ribeiro [00:44:01] For me was a really positive thing because. Yeah. Brought me what I need at that time. Yeah, it was great. Great people. Yeah, right. Activities in church in Brazil does a lot of activities. They want to make sure that the youth is stick to them. They need these people.

John Dehlin [00:44:25] Yeah, totally.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:44:26] Yeah. And then I was one of them, like, you know, games, and they did like, Olympics, right? How can I say Marcelo.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:44:38] Olympic Games.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:44:40] Yeah. Friends in Portuguese. We had Olympia dos Amigos. I don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:44:45] Friends Games.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:44:46] Friends Games. And then they did the Olympics.

John Dehlin [00:44:48] Friend Olympics.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:44:49] Yeah, yeah. Friend Olympics, Something like that.

John Dehlin [00:44:51] How many years between your baptism, Sandra, and meeting Marcelo? How many years was that?

Sandra Ribeiro [00:44:56] Okay. I was baptized 1995. I met Marcelo 2000.

John Dehlin [00:45:02] So five. Five years.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:45:03] Five years.

John Dehlin [00:45:04] Five years.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:45:04] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:45:05] Okay. Just for the sake of time, maybe the next thing we can do. So you did serve a mission.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:45:11] I did.

John Dehlin [00:45:11] Should we talk about that really quick?

Sandra Ribeiro [00:45:12] Yes, sure.

John Dehlin [00:45:13] Okay. So, like, did you ever think you would be serving a mission in your 20s? And what was that like?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:45:19] Oh, from the moment I got into church, like, I'm doing it okay. Right. Not because I was super excited about it. It's just because that's what the Lord wants.

John Dehlin [00:45:27] Okay.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:45:27] And I'm like, once I buy into something, I AM all in 110%.

John Dehlin [00:45:33] All right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:45:33] So, yeah, I'm going on a mission. It took a while for my life to fall in place. I study, and I got a really good job with the federal government in Brazil. And then I started studying to get into college, Right. So I got a good job before I had even started college. I kind of reversed things a little bit. Then I started college. So there were a couple of things at play there, Right. So at the job I was. If I worked for, there was a probationary period of two years. And after that, you can get unpaid leaves for up to three years. Oh, wow, that's perfect. I take the leave, go serve a mission and come back. And then college, you have to do one year. Then you can put it on hold, right.

John Dehlin [00:46:15] For.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:46:15] I don't know what the timeframe is, how long you can. But it was enough for the mission. So I did that. And it was interesting. During that process, I felt guilty because I'm like, I'm putting my things, you know, in front of the Lord, ahead of the Lord. And I very. And I'm talking. That federal job is like, you don't get fired unless you kill someone or punch the president of the country or something like that.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:46:40] Oh, it's true.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] So it's precious.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:46:42] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a whole industry to prepare, to prepare people for the test, to be admitted to the job. It's not like a regular job application. It's more like a. You take a test, and only the top people that rank in that test get in.

John Dehlin [00:46:56] Got it.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:46:57] Just to give an idea, I. I aced the test, and I was number 10. Oh, right. In the whole country, there were 900 people per position competing for each position. So, anyway, so big deal, right? And I'm like, I'm gonna quit because I need to go to admission.

John Dehlin [00:47:12] Wow.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:47:13] And then a friend of mine, luckily, you know, convinced me to. No, you know, you stay for the two years, go on a mission, then you come back and you're gonna have a good job. You're gonna be able to serve so much better in the church, having a good job as a. Okay, I can do that. So I waited two years, right? And I went into. In 98, went to the south of Brazil, border with Argentina and Uruguay, and that was a dream come true as far as learning English for me, because, like, half my time I'm spending with American companions, so I can study English now.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:47:46] My mission president was very good at encouraging Brazilians to learn English, so he imported a ton of dictionaries. He would encourage people to practice English with their companions. So I would ask my companions to record themselves reading the Book of Mormon so I could listen to the tapes and, you know, practice and all that. So my English started with it come to pass. And, you know, notwithstanding that was my English.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:48:12] The mission president's wife, because I was a secretary in the mission, so I had a lot of contact with the mission president and the wife, and I asked her to record the Book of Mormon tapes for me and to copy them. But it was such a hassle. And she was like, you know what? Just take the whole set. It's yours. So that's how my English started. Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:34] These are cassettes of the Book of Mormon read in English, correct? Yeah. Yeah, I remember those.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:48:39] So I didn't have to bother my companions anymore or the.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] Anyone out there remember cassettes? They were a thing.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:48:45] Yeah, they were. So, anyway, so mission experience was great, you know.

John Dehlin [00:48:51] Do you have a lot of baptisms?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:48:54] It depends on what you call a lot. You're not supposed to just say the number, right, John, you need to know the names now.

John Dehlin [00:48:59] We can do whatever we want.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:49:00] Yeah. No, I think I baptized something like 50 people, which was average. It wasn't, like, amazing. But you Know, compared to other places, it might be a lot. Right? So, yeah, but as I said, I struggled a little with the whole salesman. Put pressure to baptize and invite a challenge in the first discussion. I couldn't rarely do that. And it was very much against my nature. Like, no, they don't have enough, they don't have enough information. They can't commit to something yet. So I struggled with that side. Survived a hurricane in my mission.

Navigating Difficult Church History as Converts

John Dehlin [00:49:37] I have two quick questions, is that okay?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:49:39] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:49:39] So I'm reading in Matt Harris's book, Second Class Black Mormons and the Struggle for Equality. It talks about when the Mormon Church originally sent missionaries to Brazil. It's because there were white people in Brazil, particularly in the southern part of Brazil, because they didn't want to teach people with, quote, any African blood. But they were, I guess, Europeans. Can you just talk quickly? Are there Germans or Portuguese sort of like European descended people in Brazil? A lot of them, yes.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:50:12] And in the south is where you see the least amount of miscegenation, right? The interracial marriage, marriage type thing. So you see a lot more really white, European looking people in the South.

John Dehlin [00:50:27] People,

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:50:30] yes, yes. But not the really like the German ones. And the funny thing is that in Brazil, like you know how you, you can, in a lot of places you call Americans gringos. Right. In Brazil, we call the European liking people German because that's the biggest, you know, number of them that came during World War II, I think. Yeah. So that's how the church started in Brazil. So a lot of saints, the German saints moved. I don't know if they were Nazi or not fleeing the Nazis or whatever it was.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:51:04] But the first meeting, the story I hear is that the first meetings of the church in Brazil were actually held in German and the Book of Mormon they had was in German. It wasn't until Brazil got involved in Second World War that holding meetings in German became forbidden. Then they started having to do it in Portuguese and published the Book of Mormon. Portuguese. And then the church started that way. That's the story I heard from, from the church itself. Right.

John Dehlin [00:51:32] It's so weird. They didn't want to teach dark skinned people, but they were okay teaching Nazis.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:51:38] Right. And interesting that the blacks in the priesthood was the very first controversial subject that I got exposed to in my life. Right, Okay.

John Dehlin [00:51:50] I was gonna ask you all that. Were you taught before he got baptized that the Mormon Church had excluded black people from membership from the priesthood or the temple for 150 years? Sandra.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:52:05] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:52:06] You weren't taught that Nope. Do you think that would have influenced you if you had been taught that? Or maybe.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:52:10] Maybe. Okay, maybe. And then interesting, because they. They don't talk about like polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:52:17] Were you taught that Joseph smith had had 30 plus wives?

Sandra Ribeiro [00:52:20] No. No, Emma. That's it.

John Dehlin [00:52:21] How about you, Marcelo?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:52:23] Oh, not at all. Neither of those two things never came up in any church material classes or anything. Right. The one time I heard anything about it was in the hallways. I don't remember how the conversation started, but was, you know, a very black guy talking to someone else. And they were. I think I overheard the conversation or something. I joined the two of them when they were talking about it and I overheard it.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:52:48] That the church for some time didn't allow priesthood for blacks or temple. Yeah, that wasn't brought up at that point. Right. But yes, you're right. The temple as well. But the only topic they talked was priesthood. And the explanation, very like, briefly, like, you know, it's a hallway conversation. Right. It's like it was that all the descendants of Cain were black. Not all blacks are descendants of Cain. That's how it was explained to me at that point. But all descendants of Cain were black. And God needed to wait until the last one of them died because we can differentiate. We couldn't. Right. So God knew.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:53:28] So when the last one was gone, then, now the blacks can have. Because there is no risk of giving the priesthood to a descendant of Cain. I was like, oh, okay. And I was like, John, I was so involved in bettering, improving myself, serving others. That's what mattered to me.

John Dehlin [00:53:45] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:53:45] What happened at that point? That would be what, 90, 19, 98, 99 or no, sorry, 97, 95. So almost 20 years. Right. Nobody's impacted by that anymore, so I don't care. Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] Makes sense. Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:54:02] And it was never brought up. It was just like one quick conversation in the hallway. That was my very first exposed exposure to it.

John Dehlin [00:54:10] How about the fact that Joseph Smith changed his first vision story over time? Were you taught that? No, no, Sandra, no.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:54:19] No.

John Dehlin [00:54:19] What about the Joseph Smith?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:54:21] That was one topic that came up again very quickly. A companion in my mission, he briefly mentioned something about multiple versions of the first vision. He said there were nine. And I was like, again, I'm so busy doing important stuff. Who cares about that?

John Dehlin [00:54:36] But again, that was years after you had converted, right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:54:38] Oh, yeah, many years. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] And that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using a stone and a hat. Did the missionaries tell you that, Marcella?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:54:45] Never.

John Dehlin [00:54:45] How about you, Sundar?

Sandra Ribeiro [00:54:46] No, not at All.

John Dehlin [00:54:47] Yeah. Or that the temple ceremony came from the Masonic lodge. Did they ever tell you that?

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:54:52] No.

John Dehlin [00:54:53] Yeah. And that's, you know, that's a main value or mission in Mormon stories, is just to recognize that the church does not provide people with informed consent.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:55:04] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] And that's, you know, and that's not ethical. People deserve to know the truth about the organization they're joining.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:55:12] Yeah, they. They don't talk about that at all. Especially during the, like when they are teaching new people.

John Dehlin [00:55:20] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:55:20] Like prospecting people, that stuff. Yeah, they don't talk about that. I heard about polygamy. When I communicate my parents that I was going to baptize in that religion, they are not against it. But weeks later, my mom called me, said, hey, I just discovered that this church is a polygamist church. And I was surprised because I didn't hear nothing about polygamy and I didn't see any family do, you know, like a guy with multiple wives or something like that.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:56:00] But that was the definition that you would see in the dictionary, just the Portuguese dictionary, when you look up Mormonism, that's. It was there. I don't know if still is polygamist or. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what. What her mom saw. And it was like, hey, are you sure about this?

Sandra Ribeiro [00:56:15] Yeah, she found out about. And. And the dictionary.

John Dehlin [00:56:19] Yeah. To be clear, the Mormon church still believes in polygamy in 2024. So that's, you know, it's accurate.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:56:26] Yeah. Correct. Yeah, Actually, yes. But what I did, I. I was like, I'm gonna know more about it. And then I asked someone that I trust, a leader. And the explanation was like, oh, that was a long time ago, like in the beginning. And just because in that time, because of the persecution, so many men was being killed. So God permit, like polygamy just to help the wives. Oh, not the wives, the widows. The widows. It was for the widows.

John Dehlin [00:57:05] And that's also not true. There were more men than women in Utah during those polygamous years. So it's not true.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:57:11] Right.

Sandra Ribeiro [00:57:12] And about the black. I heard months later I was baptized. And then I think a co worker told me about, so, oh, that church, they exclude the. The blacks, you know, and then I, again, I never heard about it. And then I did the same thing. I. I went to a leader that I trust. And then I asked. And then he said, oh, no, that was long time ago and was during the slavery. And then we no longer believe that blacks. We have blacks and all position and the church, except the presidency.

John Dehlin [00:57:52] Yeah, okay, okay. I'm glad we covered that. So, Marcelo, two year mission. Did you leave it feeling even better than before you started, more committed to the church? Do you feel like you gained a testimony or strengthen your testimony on your mission?

Marcelo's Mission and Meeting Sandra

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:58:08] I wouldn't say my testimony got stronger or anything. I acquire experience of dealing with people, you know, all the things of living away from home and all that stuff. It did hurt my relationship with my mom and my brother, though, because when I went on my mission, my parents had divorced six months prior, and basically there was this fight between me and my dad and I kicked him out of the house and I was the one with the good job and I just left. So in a space of six months, my mom lost the husband and the son that was providing, and they really struggled financially when I was gone.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:58:50] And I didn't pay for my mission because of that. So the only asset I had was a car. And I was like, I'm going to leave the car to my mom so they can move around. And they struggled financially. I contacted my bishop back then. I was like, my mom is struggling. They're starving.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:59:09] Church never did anything for them. Anything. Then I learned that they didn't do anything. I called the bishop. You go there, I'm here doing everything for the church. You need to go help. It was actually a friend of ours, a friend of mine that got some sisters from the Relief Society, everybody pitched in and bought some equipment for my mom to start a little business. Church did nothing for them.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:59:36] And that was upsetting to me. My mom didn't write me. She wrote me like two times while I was in my mission. I would write back every week. So anyway. But I was there doing my best, and the hope was that my sacrifice would touch their hearts. Right. Which really didn't never happen.

Marcelo Ribeiro [00:59:57] But, yeah, it was a good experience overall. Yeah, I have nothing to say. Bad about one thing, though, interesting, is that because I had to wait that little time because of my job and college and all that, to make sure everything was in place when I come back. I was a little bit older in the mission I went on mission. I was 22 when I started, 24 when I finished.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:00:23] Most missionaries were 18, 19 or 19, 20. I was like, these kids are childish, you know, older. Some of the games they were playing was like, what is this? We are supposed to be the army of the Lord. What are these guys doing? Yeah, they're playing the silly games.

John Dehlin [01:00:41] Yeah, I remember. I remember having companions that were older and they were just always shaking their head at how dumb missionaries. Yeah. Okay, so you come home. How did y'. All. Let's talk about how y' all met. Is that all right? Yeah, yeah. When was. How long after your mission did you guys meet?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:00:59] So it was seven months after.

John Dehlin [01:01:00] Okay.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:01:01] So I came home on a mission to marry, right? My exit interview. Interview from the mission. The president. My mission president was, you know, he talked about a lot of things, and one of the things he said, you know, Elder Marcelo, you know what the main reason why returned missionaries leave the church? I was like, no, what does it present? They can't keep their penises in their pants.

John Dehlin [01:01:24] Oh, my goodness. Was he from the United States or was he.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:01:28] Yeah, he's American.

John Dehlin [01:01:29] What the. Yeah, he says that he said penises.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:01:33] Yes. Okay. He's a very, like, blunt guy. He's like. He says what he thinks. Not a lot of filters.

John Dehlin [01:01:40] All right.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:01:42] I hope that's okay to say here.

John Dehlin [01:01:44] Yeah, yeah. That's an anatomical term, right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:01:48] And so. Okay. All right. So I'll make sure I keep mine in there. So I gotta marry quick. So I'm like going jumping, you know, girlfriend after girlfriend, quickly realizing whether or not they were the one, right? So I met Sandra. She was engaged at a time when we very first met. And I was like, okay, she's out of bounds. But then she broke up her engagement later, and then we started dating. It's a long story, but make it short. We started dating and we dated for what, six months? And there was this. So at that time, we didn't have a temple in our city.

John Dehlin [01:02:28] That's Fortaleza.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:02:29] Fortaleza, yes. There is a temple there now, but before we didn't. The closest one was 12 hours drive from our city, right? So the way the most people go to the temple, especially the ones that don't have a lot of money.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:02:43] The church organizes caravans. So you charter a bus and the whole stake, right? People from the entire stake. And if they can fill a bus, you invite people from other stakes. You go and spend a week there. So there are dorms attached to the temple on the temple grounds. So we spend the whole week there. So we decided to go on one of those. We're just dating. And the idea was, let's pray in the temple and decide what we're going to do.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:03:10] Then we go the whole week. We do multiple vicarious ceilings, me and Sandra. So we're there doing the ceiling, right? And everybody's thinking we are married already. So the very last endowment session, right? So we go through it, get to the celestial room, and it's the very last one in that caravan. And then I popped a question in the celestial room. I don't think I knelt down because you're not supposed to kneel down in the temple. That's where they teach us. But yeah, that's okay.

Falling in Love and Getting Married

John Dehlin [01:03:46] Marcela, tell me three things you loved about Sandra. Most. Three things go.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:03:51] That I loved when first mad about her.

John Dehlin [01:03:53] About her. Then.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:03:55] Okay, one, she was a very independent person. She's living by herself. She has her own house. So she. She is a get goer. Right. Go get him.

John Dehlin [01:04:07] Either works. Either works get go or go get him.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:04:10] That she was. She is really hot. Okay. And she's firm in the gospel.

John Dehlin [01:04:16] Okay.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:04:17] Right. Those are the two things. Not maybe not necessarily in that order, but beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:04:22] All right, Sandra, what are three things you loved about Marcelo at the time?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:04:26] Yeah, I think I thought that he was really handsome and he was like funny. He made me laugh and he was like intelligent. I could have a good conversation with him and I like that. You know, not only. And it's not only about gospel and church. It's gospel and church. Yes, we can talk about it, but not only about this. So I really like that point. And he was like. He had a good, like as he said, he was independent as well. He had a good job. He did. He was like return missionary. Right. And then right there was like something that I really liked. It's also a guy that this has like a career as an intelligent guy. And I like him. His handsome and nice, beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:05:23] That's great. So you all were married what year and in which temple?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:05:26] 2001 in Recife, Brazil. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:30] Where is that in Brazil about.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:05:32] That's the northeast region.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:05:33] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:05:34] Okay, so.

John Dehlin [01:05:35] And were either of your parents or siblings, if you have siblings, able to attend the temple wedding?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:05:40] Not the temple? No, not the temple.

John Dehlin [01:05:42] Was there a civil wedding?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:05:44] Yeah, yeah. And we had the civil in Brazil because of the distance in the temple that for us was 12 hours driving. So we can let Mary and the civil before I go to temple.

John Dehlin [01:06:00] Okay. So the wedding in Fortaleza that everyone.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:06:04] And then the civil wedding. In that wedding, my family was there, Marcelo's family was there, so everybody was there.

John Dehlin [01:06:12] And then after you went to the

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:06:14] Mormon temple and sealed, it really surprised me when we moved to the US and we learned that here in the US before, if you did the civil wedding separate from the temple, you had to wait a year. That was not the case there. However, there was some time where the area presidency wanted to really tighten their grip on marriage and Stuff because usually what members would do, you marry if you don't leave. Right. In the same city where the temple is. You would marry on a Friday or Saturday. The civil wedding. Do the ceremony you want. Church has a ton of restrictions, what you can do or cannot do in the church building.

John Dehlin [01:06:52] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:06:52] For example, you couldn't. There is one, a very traditional wedding march, I think it's called, that everybody plays in their wedding. Church doesn't allow you to. Don't know why. And you can decorate with flowers the way you want. It's very limited. So we were like, we are not marrying the church building. We're doing another place. We want to do our thing. Right. It's our wedding, it's our day. So we had a little bit of a hold on that. Right. Didn't let the church guide, you know, restrict us from doing what we really wanted. But anyway, you marry Friday or Saturday and go to the temple. Temple is closed on Mondays, so you do the ceiling on Tuesday.

John Dehlin [01:07:27] Okay.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:07:28] There was a time where the church leadership was like, no, if you don't do it the next day, you have to wait a year. So that's stupid.

John Dehlin [01:07:36] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:07:38] But anyway, that was short lived.

John Dehlin [01:07:39] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:07:40] Okay. They tried to do it.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:07:41] Didn't work in Brazil. Not that way.

John Dehlin [01:07:43] Got it.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:07:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:45] Okay. So just for the sake of time, I'm going to ask you just some broad questions. So you're married in 2000. You said two.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:07:56] 2001.

John Dehlin [01:07:57] 2001. And then how many years between that and you guys moving here to the United States? How many years between 2001 and we came in 2009.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:08:09] So we're.

Early Married Life and Temple Experiences

John Dehlin [01:08:09] Okay. So you're in Brazil eight years. Did you have any kids during that time?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:08:13] Oh, yeah, we had three kids.

John Dehlin [01:08:15] Three kids in Brazil.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:08:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] Correct. While you were there.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:08:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:18] And then tell us just some of the callings or responsibilities you held while you were Mormons. A young Mormon couple in Brazil. Yeah, either one.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:08:29] Yeah. I would like to go back a little bit because when Marcelo was like, he's doing his mission, I was like, living another life, not mission. Right.

John Dehlin [01:08:40] You strayed from the path a little bit.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:08:43] Kind of. But no. So when I baptized, I had like six months in and about five out. And then go back, I went back. Right. But during that time, I have like all sorts of callings.

John Dehlin [01:09:04] Oh.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:09:05] And in Brazil, because sometimes they lack of people that can. Excuse me, they are lack of people that can fulfill the calling. Sometimes we have multiple callings.

John Dehlin [01:09:18] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:09:18] And then I moved from like words. Right. And then that words. I Had a lot of. A lot of callings. I was like. And the young women. I was like, camp leader. I was like, not only in that one, but in others. I was like camp leader. I was like second counselor. I was the president of the young women

John Dehlin [01:09:52] as a single woman.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:09:54] Not as a single woman. When Marcelo was called bishop, I was called the young women president.

John Dehlin [01:10:01] What was your professional during those years?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:10:03] Okay. I was working for the. I was working for Sony, and I was like, like sales promoter.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:10:10] Okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:10:11] And that time I had a great job.

John Dehlin [01:10:13] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:10:14] My own car. Right. And then people really respect people like that. Anyway, but when I was in this other world, I started to date the bishop son. Bishop's son.

John Dehlin [01:10:30] You dated the bishop's son?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:10:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:32] Okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:10:32] I did the bishop's son. And then I had already maybe, I think, two callings. I was the seminary teacher and the camp young women camp leader.

John Dehlin [01:10:46] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:10:47] And then the bishop called me for an interview. And then I thought it was another calling. I was like, new in a church. I was not even a year member of the church. And then for my surprise, the interview was like, for, like, dignity. It wasn't for calling.

John Dehlin [01:11:10] So do you mean worthiness? What?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:11:12] Do you mean worthiness?

John Dehlin [01:11:14] Okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:11:14] Yes. And then the bishop called you into

John Dehlin [01:11:16] a worthiness interview a year into your membership year before.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:11:22] And it was not because I was like, close to a year.

John Dehlin [01:11:26] Oh, okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:11:27] Is because I was dating his son.

John Dehlin [01:11:29] Oh, yeah. So he's wanting to find out whether you're breaking any rules with his son.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:11:37] No, because he trusts his son and he knew we're not doing anything.

John Dehlin [01:11:43] Okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:11:44] He wants to know if I was a virgin.

John Dehlin [01:11:47] Oh, my goodness. How did. Are you comfortable sharing how he asked that?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:11:51] Yeah. So. Yeah. And then I already have talk about this with now he is my friend.

John Dehlin [01:11:58] Oh, the bishop.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:11:59] Now the bishop. The bishop was to be my friend and his son because he passed the bishop. He's no longer here.

John Dehlin [01:12:09] Oh, okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:12:09] But anyway, so what happened? They called me. He called me for this interview, and he was like, pretty straight. Like, I said, okay, my son is a virgin and he is looking for a, you know, a wife. He wants to find a wife, and he is looking for a strong, like, member of the church. And like, anyway, he asked me if I was virgin.

John Dehlin [01:12:44] Wow. How'd that make you feel? Was that shocking? Was that.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:12:48] It was shocking. I. I wasn't expect that question at all. I didn't know was a thing. Yeah, I felt confused, actually.

John Dehlin [01:13:00] You didn't know what was the thing?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:13:02] Virginity.

John Dehlin [01:13:03] Oh, okay.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:13:05] That was that important.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:13:07] Well, yeah. And then I was like, I, I cannot lie. I'm, I'm not going to lie. I told him, no, I'm, I'm not virgin. I had this like long relationship before to be baptized. Right. Was the relationship that I broke. And then I thought I would marry that guy. And yes, we had sex. And then when he started to ask how many times you had sex? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:41] Oh my goodness. And then like that mattered.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:13:45] Do you know how many times? I don't know because was almost three years relationship. I didn't count.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:13:51] I wasn't keeping tabs. Right.

John Dehlin [01:13:54] As you write down 2, 3, 4. What's he thinking?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:14:00] And then he asked those, those questions, you know, how long? And I was like, anyways, if it was a long, you know, if it was a long term relationship was how many times? And I don't remember anymore because how

John Dehlin [01:14:17] did it make you feel to have him ask you those questions?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:14:20] That was the big problem. I felt like I wasn't forgiven. I was doubting. It's like that question, that interview made me doubt my dignity. My, my not dignity was the wordness.

John Dehlin [01:14:38] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:14:39] My worthiness was, am I forgiven?

John Dehlin [01:14:43] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:14:43] I didn't told the missionaries I wasn't a virgin. I, I did not suppose because when they asked me about are you keeping the, the law of chastity? I. I said yes because.

John Dehlin [01:14:58] Because you were.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:14:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:59] At the time.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:14:59] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:15:01] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:15:01] And then I was like, I, I don't know now. I don't know. And it was like he put the, you know, the scene.

John Dehlin [01:15:10] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:15:11] Back on my shoulders.

John Dehlin [01:15:12] Yeah. Because one of the benefits quote of baptism is you. All your sins are washed away.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:15:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:18] And so you're so happy. It's like, oh, whatever bad things I've done, now I'm clean. And now this bishop, a year into your membership is making you feel dirty. Like your baptism didn't clean you.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:15:29] Yeah. I, I wasn't sure.

John Dehlin [01:15:31] I'm sorry.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:15:32] And then I was like 20, about 24 years old at that time, and I was like strongly encouraged to, to go to the temple and do the endowments. And I was single.

John Dehlin [01:15:50] Right.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:15:51] But I was like my bishop, my friends, my boyfriend, you know. Yeah. Go to the temple and they gave me a booklet talking about the temple. And that was the only information I had about the temple. And it's so superficial, so superficial. In my head, I was going to this beautiful place that you feel peace and then you come back with using garments. That's it.

John Dehlin [01:16:26] Oh. And I mean, I think you would agree the temples are beautiful. So I Think what I. I think what you're saying is you didn't feel beautiful going to the temple. Is that right?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:16:36] Well, that. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:16:39] Or did you?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:16:40] Yeah, I was like, well, the worthiness. Um, I was just like, I don't know if the. Do you know this sexy, like not sexy, like having sex, not be a virgin.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:16:55] So I think you'll be a big deal.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:16:58] But I was like, I am worthy to go to the temple. Yeah, I am.

John Dehlin [01:17:03] Yeah. Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:17:04] Want to say something?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:17:06] I'm just saying, I think what Sandra is trying to say is that because he kept being brought back up, she. She was always doubting. Right. Am I really clean from what I did?

John Dehlin [01:17:17] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:17:18] Right?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:17:19] Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Marcelo. I have told him about it because it's all the time that I went to like a temple interview that they ask about it. Because when they ask, it's like more deep, I think. And I was like, I. I'm not sure, but still I can go to the temple. And then I went to the temple for the first time. At that time, the closest temple was in Sao Paulo. And we went on bus. It was a. We call caravana. Go like a lot of people like the. The steak and go just in one bus.

John Dehlin [01:18:00] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:18:00] And it's three days driving.

John Dehlin [01:18:05] Yeah. No, I know when I. When I grew up in Texas, the closest temple is Mesa, Arizona. And it was like a two or three day car ride to the temple. So I did that too, even in the United States. So I relate. Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:18:20] Cool. And when I went to the temple for the first time single, I had no like a reason to do all that, you know, covenants. But I had a. A great. What is the name of Salofah? The people that escort.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:18:42] Yeah, escort her. Escort to the temple.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:18:44] Yeah. It was an amazing lady.

John Dehlin [01:18:47] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:18:47] That was with me all the time, guiding me.

John Dehlin [01:18:50] Oh, good.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:18:50] You know, and then when I did my. My temple covenants, like the initiatory. Like the initiatory. So the first thing before I enter, she said, just remember, whatever they do with you inside is gonna be with the most respectful way is for your salvation. And it's sacred.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:19:19] That's so funny. It's like the lady knows it will be weird. Just know that's a good thing.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:19:27] And when I did was with a rope that is open that they touch my skin. Like my legs, my side, my chest

John Dehlin [01:19:37] here you were naked other than the poncho that they put over you and they're putting their hands on your naked body through the side of the poncho.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:19:44] Yeah. I Was like on the chest here.

John Dehlin [01:19:47] Abdomen. They do glowing.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:19:48] Yeah. My arms and the skin side. It's like my ripped cage right here. And then my legs.

John Dehlin [01:19:53] For me, they did the groin. They literally did the groin now with me.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:19:57] But. And I didn't felt disrespected or. I was okay with that part, actually was. I was okay. But for the endowment session, when we start to dress with the priesthood robes and an April Aprons, right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:20:18] Apron, yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:20:19] And the veil that I look around and see all that people with the same clothes. I thought was, this is weird. This is.

John Dehlin [01:20:31] So the temple was weird.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:20:33] Yeah, the clothes, you know, all that. That. Anyway. But I was. I was looking around and I was like surround with people that I. You know, like intelligent people, like, successful, like lawyers. Like. No, no, no. Marketing. Like people that was there. I was like, these people, they are intelligent people and they're doing this. I think I've just kept going, you know, just keep going. So we had like, I think three days in the temple. And then the first day was my own endowments. And then the second day I avoid the endowments. I didn't want to go, so. But I had so many names to

John Dehlin [01:21:17] be baptized for the dead of dead people.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:21:19] Yes, I had the list. And then I spent most of my time and the family, you know, enter all the information. And I met a guy, this young single man. And then he was from Portugal, handsome. And I was like, so charming. He's like, the way he speaks.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:21:46] The accent.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:21:46] The accent. I was okay. We became instantly friends. And we spent the rest of the day and the next day doing Baptism for the dead and also going for the sessions because at that time we had two movies with the blonde Eve and the brunette Eve. And then we're like, okay, we're going to the brunette now. And then after that, we're going to

John Dehlin [01:22:17] the blonde one right now they don't have movies. It's so weird to think of the Mormon Temple not having movies. But they used to.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:22:24] And then make my experience in the temple lighter. Like, okay, I can do this.

John Dehlin [01:22:30] Oh, good.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:22:30] Yeah. And then. Yeah. Second time I went same tempo, same three days in a buzz, back and forth. But I was. I was going with my bestie and I was be her skirt. And then I was excited for that.

John Dehlin [01:22:46] Oh, good.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:22:46] And then it was like another fun time because I had like my friends was more people like my age.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:22:53] Yeah, yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:22:54] The second time when Marcelo. I went. No, the third time when I went together.

John Dehlin [01:23:00] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:23:01] So the temple was okay for me.

John Dehlin [01:23:03] Okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:23:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:04] All right. Okay, well, that's. That's. I'm glad you told that story. The worthiness stuff is really important, and the temple experience is really important. So. Okay. Is it okay to. Okay. So we were. Maybe we jump back now you're married. You stay in Brazil for about eight years, and you shared a lot of the callings that you had had. Marcelo, can you give us an idea of the type? Sure. I guess it's harder to find Melchizedek priesthood leadership outside the United States. So sometimes younger Mormons get called to higher levels of authority. Was that your experience?

Marcelo's Path to Becoming Bishop and Stake President

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:23:40] Definitely. Oh, yeah. So I was called a high priest when I was 21, John, before I went on my mission.

John Dehlin [01:23:45] Yeah. I never made it to high priest,

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:23:47] so I was actually. I was demoted. Right. To go on a mission. I remember feeling that.

John Dehlin [01:23:52] But before your mission, you were high priest?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:23:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:54] That's crazy.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:23:54] So now I'm elder, right?

John Dehlin [01:23:56] Yeah. Just for people who don't know. The church kicked me out when I was 45. I was never a high priest. He was a high priest before he served his mission. Okay, keep going.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:24:05] I remember being in Dallas when I was filling out papers for people that I was baptizing. Do I put elder or I put. Because you're elder. Marcelo. Right? Do I put elder or put high priest? I don't know. But anyway, so I served in a bishopric before I went on my mission. So that's how little before. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:23] Okay.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:24:23] That's how little leadership we have.

John Dehlin [01:24:25] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, how awesome you were.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:24:28] No, not really. So I come back from a mission, we marry. Right. And. And then we. I moved to Sandra's stake, and I had some experiences that were really bad between coming. You know, those. What? About a year, right after my mission, I served in the bishopric again. And there was a very contentious war. There were some issues going on. I was burned out. So when we moved, I would go talk to the branch president where we are now living, and like, look, I told him this story. I need a little break. I need to be without a call. I need to reset. And he was like.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:25:08] I was talking through him because he immediately or the next day was like, I'm going to call you this. Whatever it was. And I said no. The first time and only time I said no in the church. And I felt so guilty for so many years about that because Mormons aren't

John Dehlin [01:25:22] supposed to say, no.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:25:23] No, you can't. But anyway, got some ward callings and I started serving in this stake young men's president, and we had a Lot of activities and loved working with the young men. I always had a little bit of this and feistiness in me. Right. Rules need to make sense to me, John. If they don't, I was able to separate a little bit, like, what Marcelo believes and what the young man's president is supposed to do.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:25:58] Right. So I remember one time we put together this ball dance in our ward and invited people from all sorts of different wards and stakes. And I always liked dances, Right. I was the dj and we had the lights dimmed. The stake president comes in and is like, the lights are too dim. I'm like, no, they're not. Yes, they are. No, they're not. I read the manual. You're supposed to be able to see across the entire, you know, room, and I can see across the whole place. So it's by the book. No, you need to, you know, turn the lights on. I was like, okay, I'll turn the lights on.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:26:35] Because you're saying so, not because I think it's the right thing. So I always had that kind of little bit of a separation. Right. But they kept calling me to higher callings, John. I don't know why. I think they liked that somehow.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:26:47] So, yeah, Young man's stake, young man's president. I was called the bishop after that. Well, I served in the high Council for a little bit, and then a bishop served as a bishop for five years.

John Dehlin [01:26:59] Oh, wow. In Brazil.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:27:00] In Brazil, yeah. So I was called into the stake president's office one Sunday morning, the two of us, and then he breaks the news, Right. We're calling you as a bishop. The Lord is calling you. I was like, remember, I can't say no anymore ever.

John Dehlin [01:27:15] Right.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:27:15] I was traumatized by that one time. Like, I guess it's yes. So I go home. So that's. That was in the morning. That ward would. Our ward would meet at 3 o' clock in the afternoon or something like that. So I had that long to prepare. I was called the same day. So I go back home, throw my. Myself in bed. I was like, my life is gonna change forever and a lot, and we don't even have kids. And I got that rubbed on my. No going to college. We were married for a year and a half.

John Dehlin [01:27:49] Wow.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:27:50] You're going to college already.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:27:52] I was still going to college. And I was. I was 27 at the time.

John Dehlin [01:27:58] Yeah. So just for people to understand, like, this is the equivalent of a pastor or a priest. So without any training, without any kids, having just been married a couple years, you're put in charge of an entire congregation while you're still in college. Like that's mind blowing.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:28:14] Yep.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:28:14] Yeah. And that got rubbed on my face a time or two. Right. Trying to give counsel about, you know, family and raising kids. You don't even have kids. So. Yeah, you're right, because you're supposed to

John Dehlin [01:28:25] counsel the church members who are married as a bishop and you're not even. And you don't, I mean, who have kids and you don't even have kids.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:28:32] Yeah, yeah, but the mantle, right. You're supposed to teach me everything I need.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:28:36] Plus you were called for the new ward.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:28:40] Yeah. So the ward was splitting that day and it was called the bishop of the new ward. So served for five years. I wanted, really wanted to come to the US to study, learn English and have a college experience here. And I remember praying about it. And I felt very strongly that I shouldn't go at that time because I had this commitment. I don't break my word. I said I would stay and I'm staying right. Until four to five years. That's usually the tenure of a bishop. So I stayed there and five years are approaching. I'm starting to prepare again, studying English and taking tests and doing everything I need ahead of time to come to byu. That was the plan.

John Dehlin [01:29:22] To byu.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:29:22] To byu, yeah. Because there is a scholarship that I could take advantage of, a full ride scholarship. And that was the plan. Right. Then five years are approaching, the stake president is to be released. So 70 comes, interviews everybody from the High council, interviews all the bishops in the area and we get called in. After that, Sandra gets called in. They call me and say, hey, can Sandra come here? And at that point I know what's going to happen. Right. And okay, yeah, sure. So she comes in, we get the interview, and then 70 asked me. So during the interview I told him, right. My plan is once I get released, I'm going to go to BYU and et cetera, et cetera.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:30:10] And then when Sandro comes in, he's interviewing us together this time and he goes like, what do you think about postponing that plan for 10 years? Because that's usually the stake president tenure. Right. Or service. And I'm like, I would feel very frustrated.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:30:28] I'm 32 now and that would mean 42. And that's kind of getting out of the range of age for the. I was coming for the MBA program. Yeah. So it's kind of getting a little old for the MBA program.

John Dehlin [01:30:39] So they were going to call you to be a stake president.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:30:41] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:41] Which Is like a. Like a card. I don't know, in the Catholic Church, like, over, like, 10 congregations.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:30:47] Correct.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:30:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:48] Yeah. I mean, which is flattering. Like, it's a position of high responsibility and respect in the Mormon Church.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:30:57] Right.

John Dehlin [01:30:57] But you had other plans.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:30:59] Right? Yeah. And the interesting thing, John, is that one of the reasons. Well, there was this. That Since I was 6, I wanted to learn, be fluent in English and all that. When I saw the church catalog of materials in Portuguese was super thin. There was a pamphlet in Spanish was like three times as thick. And in English was like a Bible. Right. So thick. Like, look at all the material. I'm going to have access once I'm 100% fluent in English. Right. So anyway, so I tell him that. He doesn't care. He calls me anyway, so I get called to be the stake president. We had eight awards at that point. The stake president was going to serve a mission, and so I was taking his place. So I stayed there for two years.

John Dehlin [01:31:48] So you were a stake president?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:31:49] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:50] Wow.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:31:51] I don't say no, John. I didn't used to. Dang.

John Dehlin [01:31:54] That's so much responsibility for a young.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:31:57] Yeah, 32.

John Dehlin [01:31:59] Yeah, yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:32:00] Two kids at that point.

John Dehlin [01:32:01] Okay. Wow. And did y' all love that? Hate that. What was that like being a stake president? A stake president's wife, you know.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:32:10] Oh, it's a challenge.

John Dehlin [01:32:11] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:32:12] Yeah. Not only the state president wife, the. The bishop's wife, you know, I have to.

John Dehlin [01:32:17] You. Were you relief Saudi president as the bishop's wife or young women's.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:32:21] I was young women.

John Dehlin [01:32:22] Okay. So that's. You're basically running the ward and then the stake.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:32:27] Yeah, I was like young women president for a while, and then when I was released, I was called the seminar teacher.

John Dehlin [01:32:33] Yeah. Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:32:35] Well, it was a lot of work. I never looked and never sought that, but interesting. I loved it, John. I love helping people. Right. That's the reason why we have the YouTube channel, the Facebook group and all that. I love helping people.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:32:55] And it was a very poor area, and there was a lot of opportunity to help, especially kids to get out of the slums and give them what the church once had given me. Right. A purpose in life, goals, role models so they can break the cycles that they have in their families with drugs, with alcohol and all that sort of problems.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:33:19] So it was a good experience. Right. Challenging, for sure. You become like, everybody's looking your life. Right. I remember having to take pictures down, you know, back in social media back then. Or could you guys never had that here. It was a Google thing that you guys never had, which is funny, but, you know, there was a picture of Sandra with a swimming suit and people thought it was a little scandalous and were calling my counselor, take this down, take this down. I was like, okay, whatever, fine. I'm not gonna hurt anyone's feelings.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:33:51] But yeah, I said yes to the calling. We had two year and a half run church in Brazil was very, I believe, still is very, very vibrant, right? It's growing. We're creating new wards all the time, new stakes.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:34:12] So in two years and a half, and again, I was like, do I really need to give up my plan? Then I met a recruiter from byu. He came to our city and interviewed me and he said, no, just prepare someone to take your place and come, come to byu.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:34:30] And so that changed my paradigm on that. I was like, okay, I'll go. And that's what I did. I served for two years and a half as a stake president. And the day I was released, there was. Well, it wasn't just me, right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:34:46] We were working towards splitting the stake for years. And the main purpose was to get enough stakes to justify a temple in our city. That was the plan. Everybody was engaged in that, right? Everybody. So, yeah, we split the stake the day I was released. So I was going out and two new ones coming in. So that was a fun experience.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:35:12] Now I did at that point, I was starting to notice that the church wasn't. The system of the church wasn't feeding me spiritually anymore. That whole rush of let's go, go, go and do and do and do, that wasn't working for me. I did not realize at that point. Now looking back, back, I know that's how I was feeling at that point. And the one hint to that was that when I was.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:35:41] So we are having the stake conference. I know the stake's going to be divided and we're going to have two new ones, new presidencies. So I gather the stake leadership, all the organizations, all the presidencies, and I remember telling them, look, we did all this. It's great.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:35:58] I know I'm not going to be here anymore. You don't have to listen to anything I'm saying. You're going to listen to the new guy. But if it was me, the one thing I would like to focus from now on would be the individuals, not programs, not splitting anything, not creating new wards. Individuals, not numbers, right? And I didn't think this way back then, but now I know that was because it wasn't working for me at that point anymore. I wanted introspection, internal change, and the church wasn't helping me anymore with that. Right. It's almost like it worked for a time frame, for a time period.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:36:36] But I need something different now to keep moving forward. I felt like I was stuck in a hamster wheel doing the same thing over and over and over and over, not going anywhere, spiritually and personally speaking.

John Dehlin [01:36:50] Yeah. Okay, well. And so that's kind of your internal voice kind of waking up a little bit. You don't quite know what it means. But having said that, like, this is one of the hardest parts about these stories that I do. You're not only getting this great community, meaning purpose, you're getting leadership responsibilities, not just as a bishop, but as a stake president. You as a seminary teacher, you're getting status in your community. You're getting influence, power even. And then you're getting a move to the United States and, you know, to advance your career. What's not to love? What an incredible set of positive results to you joining the church. Right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:37:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:37:41] Right.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:37:42] And we just look for the great parts and, like, focus what is good. Right. We don't pay attention what the things that is hurting.

John Dehlin [01:37:51] Yeah. Okay. Well, that's a. I guess that's a preview to what's coming. Maybe so. But I mean, you moved here in what year?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:37:59] 2009.

John Dehlin [01:38:00] 2009, yes. Okay. To pursue an MBA. MBA?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:38:04] Where?

John Dehlin [01:38:05] A BYU. Provo.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:38:07] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] Okay. So I'm. I'm dying, so. But that's an interesting thing because you're like bishop then, stake president, and then you come here and I would just be honest. I don't think Mormons in the United States respect Mormons from other countries as much. And so I wonder if you felt a downgrading of respect once you came here. But I don't want to put that into your story if that's not true. What was it like to come to BYU after having been a stake president from Brazil? What was that like?

Moving to BYU and Adjusting to Life in America

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:38:40] Well, it was a big change, for sure. For sure.

John Dehlin [01:38:42] Was it?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:38:42] Yeah. Because, John, I was putting in probably at least 20 hours a week of work in the church. Right. You know, Tuesday's interviews and Wednesday meetings, and Sunday starts at 6 in the morning, goes until 10pm doing meetings, visiting wards and, you know, visiting people and all that.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:39:02] Plus all the time I'm spending at home preparing talks. I was giving talks every week, basically visiting a ward. And the bishop wants to stay present to talk. Right. So it was a lot of time. And then I come here and crickets. We Go to a student ward, a family student ward at byu.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:39:23] And we keep going for a few months, two, three months, and nobody calls us to talk to us. The bishop doesn't even know we're there. Nobody comes to visit us. Nobody gives us anything to do. And the lessons suck because it's a bunch of kids teaching stuff. That lesson was awful.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:39:41] You know, then I'm feeling, no, we are not being seen here. Let's go to a regular ward. Because we had that option. Right. So we went to a regular ward, which was a little better. But again, you're there, they know your student, you'll be there for two years and they'll be gone. So they don't invest in you emotionally or relationship wise or anything but. Right. And for a while it felt bad, but then I was like, hey, the MBA program is pretty tough, so it's actually good that I don't have to spend time doing other things. I can focus on studying.

John Dehlin [01:40:14] It's gotta be hard to go to grad school in a second language. Like grad school's super hard in your own language. Doing it in a second language.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:40:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:23] I have with technical business language and accounting language and finance language. That's got to be incredibly difficult.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:40:30] Yes, it was. I remember picking accounting. Right. My bachelor's is in accounting.

John Dehlin [01:40:37] Okay.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:40:37] And I'm like, accounting class, I'm gonna, you know, it's gonna be easy peasy. I have to relearn the whole vocabulary about that. So different professor would speak so fast.

John Dehlin [01:40:47] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:40:48] I recorded the lessons, the lectures, so I could go back and re listen to them multiple times.

John Dehlin [01:40:55] Wow.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:40:56] The first semester, that's how it was.

John Dehlin [01:40:58] Wow.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:40:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:59] It's like a fire hose.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:41:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:01] How was the transition for you, Sandra, moving here?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:41:04] A big challenge.

John Dehlin [01:41:05] Really.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:41:06] A huge challenge.

John Dehlin [01:41:07] What were the hardest parts?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:41:09] The language.

John Dehlin [01:41:10] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:41:10] The barrier of the language. I came here with no language, with no English.

John Dehlin [01:41:15] Oh, really?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:41:16] Few words. Some. Some sentences. That's it. With three kids?

John Dehlin [01:41:21] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:41:22] Like three little kids. I had a five months old, so do you know what I mean? Like just a baby and two kids, like one in each side of my skirt like that. It was like a challenge. And Marcelo went to BYU like 8 in the morning and come back home about 7.

John Dehlin [01:41:42] Oh my gosh. So you're in a new country and he's never around.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:41:46] No.

John Dehlin [01:41:47] And you've got three little kids and you don't speak the language?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:41:50] No.

John Dehlin [01:41:50] That's got to be incredibly hard.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:41:52] It was. It was. And then I tried to study. I went to this English school. It Was like called Dixie, I think. And then I try and taking my three kids with me. I remember my three first day there. I had my little baby and like, you know, the. The chair stroller. Yeah. And in a class, and it was a huge challenge for me. And then Marcelo told about the students word. For me, the experience was the opposite. I liked the students words better. I knew who was the president at the time. I had friends there.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:42:41] My neighbor that was helping me was my angel. Right. That was helped me all the time. All the time by my side. I love her until forever. I love her forever. Connie, I love you. And then. And then Marcelo said, no, let's go to the family world because we're gonna spend just two years in this country. And then I know I. I want to see the. The church in running here, like as a fool. Right. And then we went there and then I disappeared.

John Dehlin [01:43:16] What do you mean?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:43:17] I disappeared. I was.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:43:18] She wasn't seen. She wasn't seen.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:43:21] Oh, I was. No, I was called. Yeah, we are called to be the nursery assistant of the assistant of the assistant baby. And then we have to show up like every other Sunday. So I was like, every other Sunday and primary and then the other one in the overlift society. So. But then in the overlift society, I was like, no one.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:43:50] And then when we are in Brazil serving, like, we live in an area pretty close to a poor area, and we have this sister in the Verdle society that she was uneducated. She always come sit in the back seat, never participate, never say a word, and go home. She had no friends.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:44:17] You know, I think because she doesn't. She couldn't read and, you know, she never participates. And then when I was in that word in Provo, I felt like that sister. I didn't know who was the Relief Society president and the consulate. I just knew the secretary. But I looked at like four ladies. I said, I know that one is the secretary. I don't know those three. I don't know who they are.

John Dehlin [01:44:52] So they weren't like members of the ward or the Relief Society that would try and reach out to you, make you feel comfortable, try and help you understand, answer questions.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:45:01] No, no, no. I didn't know who they are. I saw the ladies there. Nice ladies.

John Dehlin [01:45:09] Okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:45:10] Beautiful smile.

John Dehlin [01:45:11] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:45:12] Well dressed. I don't know who they are.

John Dehlin [01:45:14] Oh,

Sandra Ribeiro [01:45:17] the not visiting teachers was a couple, what we call home teachers. Home teachers.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:45:23] It was a couple instead of.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:45:24] They were amazing.

John Dehlin [01:45:26] Okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:45:27] Yeah, they were amazing. But I was like, I wasn't feel like how can I say nurture for the spirit. I didn't stand.

John Dehlin [01:45:36] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:45:38] Just so people understand. It's not like we were missing, you know, the praise and being up there in the pulpit and all the attention we would get right. Back in Brazil was like, I'm not doing anything in the church. I like helping people. Right. And I'm not helping anyone right now. So I felt really bad because of that. Right. Not that I wanted the attention or anything like that. I think I speak for Sundays the same. It's just like, we're doers, right? We want to do something, help people, help, you know, feel like we're propelling the kingdom forward, not just sitting in the back and being a weight being carried.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:46:23] Now, when we moved to Idaho Falls, the experience in the church was totally different. We had an amazing word with amazing people. I felt so welcomed there.

John Dehlin [01:46:40] So you were at BYU for two years, is that right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:46:42] Correct. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:43] And then you left BYU. What year?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:46:45] 2011.

John Dehlin [01:46:46] 2011. And that's when you go to Idaho Falls.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:46:49] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:46:49] Okay.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:46:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:50] Okay. And what did y' all think about not going back to Brazil, but, like, deciding to change countries and raise your children not in Brazil, but in the United States? Was that exciting? Was that scary? Was that sad?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:47:07] All of the above. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:08] Do you feel like you're abandoning your country?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:47:12] No, I don't think I ever felt like that. I was just, hey, there are better opportunities here. We love the Idaho Falls small city, you know, safe for your kids. You know, my kids can bike to school and not have to worry about their safety, because Brazil can be.

John Dehlin [01:47:28] I mean, the United States can be super dangerous. Like, Chicago can be dangerous, like D.C. like parts of Utah. But generally speaking, I know a lot of missionaries that had guns pulled on them in Brazil. I think that happens more frequently in Brazil than it happens in the United States on average, right?

Sandra Ribeiro [01:47:46] Yeah. Especially in big cities.

John Dehlin [01:47:48] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:47:49] So big cities, big problems everywhere. But, yeah, in Brazil, we can't have a really tough.

John Dehlin [01:47:55] So Idaho Falls is a lot safer than.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:47:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:59] Than Fortaleza.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:48:00] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:48:00] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:01] Yeah. Okay.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:48:01] Yeah. Fortaleza has 2.5 million people and all the problems that come with that many people put together.

John Dehlin [01:48:06] Okay, okay. Okay. So overall, you were excited to. To move and raise your family here in Idaho Falls?

Settling in Idaho Falls and Raising a Family

Sandra Ribeiro [01:48:16] Yeah, I was, because especially at that time, my kids was, like, just five years old, three years old, and two years old anyway, to raise them in that small town with great people surrounded by members of the church. Because in Brazil, we are surrounded by. With not members of the church. All the time. But here, that everywhere. My neighbors, almost everybody. So I was like, awesome. I like it. But we always had the idea, like, to go back home. And yes. Now we have kids, like, in college right now.

John Dehlin [01:49:01] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:49:02] This is their first language. First language, yeah. And their home.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:49:06] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:49:06] I don't want to put them through the same thing I went through moving away from the place I called home.

John Dehlin [01:49:11] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:49:12] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:49:13] Anyway. Yeah.

Faith Begins to Unravel in Idaho Falls

John Dehlin [01:49:14] So let's. Is it okay if we talk about when your faith started unraveling? Is that okay?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:49:19] Sure. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:49:21] So did it that started Idaho Falls? Pretty much. Were you pretty strong in the faith before moving? Idaho Falls?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:49:29] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:49:31] Okay. So what happened? When did your faith start unraveling? It seems like Idaho Falls would even strengthen because it's a very Mormon town. Right. What percentage of Idaho Falls. Ammon. Is it Ammon. That's near Idaho Falls. What percentage of Ammon? Idaho Falls is active, faithful Mormon?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:49:49] I think it's well active. I don't know, but I think it's about 50%, John.

John Dehlin [01:49:54] Like every other person's Mormon.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:49:56] Right. At my work, I would say probably 80%. It's higher than that.

John Dehlin [01:50:02] So you're going to become super faithful if you move to Idaho Falls? No, I'm just kidding. So what happens?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:50:07] And to be honest, I hated Provo. Right. For multiple reasons, and the main one being too many Mormons together. I think you said this at one point, and I totally agree that, like, if the scriptures say, Right. That we are the salt of the earth. Right. If you put too much salt together, it just spoils the food. Right. If you have too much. I think the fewer Mormons you have, the less the concentration, the better they behave because they have to get along well with everybody else around them.

John Dehlin [01:50:37] Absolutely.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:50:37] But we went from Provo, 90% Mormon or more, to Idaho Falls, 50%. This is great. It was a much better experience. So anyway, we get there, we start getting involved again. And I worked as a Boy Scouts. Boy Scout Master, I think it's called. Worked most of the time with the youth. And I'm getting, you know, back in action. Right. Doing things, helping people, visiting and all that. But then in 2014, my mom had a brain stroke. Oh, right. So got half of her, you know, half of her body paralyzed. Severely impaired her. Impaired her speech and all that. And then the next year, 2015, I ruptured my Achilles tendon playing soccer. And then that same year, a little bit later, I got diagnosed with cancer.

John Dehlin [01:51:34] Oh, no.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:51:35] With a lymphoma. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:38] Lymphoma.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:51:39] Yeah. In the same. So within a year, basically all those three things happened.

John Dehlin [01:51:43] And again, you just said this, what year again?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:51:45] 2015. So 14 my mom and then 15 me. Both the Achilles tendon and the cancer diagnosis. And my mom is coming to spend six months with us and I'm wearing a boot and doing radiation therapy, right. And I can't tell her because her, her health is fragile so she can't know any of that.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:52:06] So what that did to me, John, maybe people would look, oh, See, he thought, you know, he only believed in God and the church once things were going well. Once it goes, you know, bad, he start. Stops believing. It wasn't that what happened. What that did to me was mortality became very real very quickly to me. I was like, I'm not going to be here forever, right? And I get emotional when I think about that. I'm like, I will die.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:52:37] You know that in your mind. But for the first time it really hit me and I was, I want to make sure I invest in my time and everything in the right thing. Yeah, I'm not wasting any of this.

John Dehlin [01:52:55] Now for some, that makes them believe stronger because they want the answer to the question of death to be Mormonism and then the plan of salvation.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:53:03] That's great, right? So how was that then a lot of questions that were put in the, on a shelf, right? All of a sudden I'm like, no, I don't have time to wait anymore. I have to find answers. And funny enough, I started questioning God before I even thought about the church.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:53:20] Yeah, I came across a YouTube channel that was basically an angel, a little angel. What is it called? Anyway, so it's like, it's a animation, right? So the angel dialogue with God. So all the things that God did in the Old Testament, all the atrocities, right? Killing people, genocides, killing, threatening people because they were not circumcised or because they didn't finish having sex with, you know, they didn't want to procreate, so they pulled out or whatever. They killed the guy. I was like, what is this? So the angel is questioning all those things. So I'm like, yeah, that doesn't make sense. That's not a love.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:54:03] Very loving God. So I started reading book actually. I go on a trip to Lake Powell with a bunch of guys. We're on a houseboat and on the way down there, it's a 10 hour drive from where I live. So someone puts an audiobook, the book called Sapiens.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:54:26] And then I'm like, we listened to one chapter. I was like, that is really cool. I want to know more about that, because that kind of hits right on the nerve. So I download the book, devour it, in two days, come back, and for one year, I'm studying more and more about this and having more and more questions.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:54:46] And in that process, then I started looking into the church. And at that point, I am a world mission leader again, which is funny. My very first calling. And that's where it ends. Spoiler alert. So I'm preparing a lesson for gospel principles, and the lesson is on priesthood.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:55:11] And I'm like, what if someone asked about the ban on the blacks? Because I had heard about that once. And again during the MBA program. Someone brought it up very quickly. I'm like, I need to know about that. What if someone asks? I need to be prepared. So I go search online and find the essay on the church website, and I read the essay.

John Dehlin [01:55:35] Black race in the priesthood.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:55:37] Race and the priesthood. Yeah, that's right. So I read the essay, and I feel like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. And then I go give the lesson. Nobody asked about it. But then I go back home.

John Dehlin [01:55:48] The essay basically says, God wasn't the author of the priesthood ban. Or it says, no, the priesthood ban wasn't doctrinal. It was just the opinions of the leaders and policy. And we don't know why God did it, but we just have to have faith. Is that a good summary of what it said? Which is totally different than what I was taught growing up. Yeah, but, you know, and in a

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:56:12] very subtle way, it says, oh, well, it was Brigham Young's. You know, he was inserted in a racist world. That's what his worldview was. Because of that. Yeah, because of the context he was in. And then I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. So I go, nobody asks about that. I go back home. I was like, wait a minute. Isn't he supposed to be a prophet and know better? Why is he being, you know, teaching as God's word? Something that's just his own prejudice.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:56:41] Something is not right about that. And then I remember there was a little paragraph saying that, but, hey, when Brigham Young instituted the ban, he promised they would have the priesthood at some point. So that's great prophecy. I want to read the full text of that.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:57:00] Then I go online, and I find his speech to the Utah legislature, and it's like the most racist speech I ever seen in my life. And, John, I'll tell you, I think that was the first time I had a real encounter with racist thinking. Because my dad is black, my grandpa is black.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:57:21] Not 100%. Right. How you would think of a black. But, I mean, everybody's mixed in Brazil, so racism was never a thing to me. It was like, just because your skin is a little darker, you're not dumb or filthy or whatever. But then that hit me really hard. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not right.

John Dehlin [01:57:42] Brigham Young's speech. Do you remember what he said in it?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:57:47] Oh, he says that they can't have a drop of authority in government or in the Church, that anyone that mixes their seed with their seed should be killed on the spot. You know, all that kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [01:58:01] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:58:02] And. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:03] That the punishment for having sex with a black person.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:58:06] Right.

John Dehlin [01:58:07] For a white person is death.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:58:08] Right, Right. Yes. Yes. And I'm like. And worse than that, I could maybe accept that. Oh, yeah. Was it the views of his time? He confused things, by the way.

John Dehlin [01:58:19] That was worse than normal for his time, just to be clear.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:58:22] Correct. Yes. And I'm like, I understand how, you know, I was inspired in the callings and things I did as bishops sometimes. Comes to your mind. I don't know. I could justify. But the thing that I could not justify was that the Church lied to me about that. Or at least they hid it. Right. They were not honest by their own definition because the essay said. But look, he promised that they would receive the priesthood. But then when you read the whole thing, it says they would after every descendant of Abel or all the whites had had their chance.

John Dehlin [01:59:00] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:59:00] That is not. First, that didn't happen. So failed prophecy. And second, you didn't include that in the. You know, you removed that from your quotation, which is dishonest.

John Dehlin [01:59:12] Now, not only is our Mormon prophets racist, but they get their prophecies wrong. And the Church is hiding the truth from its members.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:59:22] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:59:22] It's like a triple betrayal.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:59:23] Yes.

Sandra Ribeiro [01:59:24] Right.

John Dehlin [01:59:24] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:59:24] Yes. And that's really the worst to me. Lied to me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:30] Because honesty is really important to you.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:59:32] Yeah. Yeah. Then I started. Just went down the rabbit hole of that. Right. So that was the first essay, and then the next one, I think was polygamy. And how. In a. At that point, I started. Sorry. I started not trusting what the Church was.

Discovering Polygamy Essays and CES Letter

John Dehlin [01:59:44] What did you read in the polygamy essay that was shocking that you didn't know?

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:59:53] From the essay? No, no.

John Dehlin [01:59:55] From the polygamy essay. I can help you.

Marcelo Ribeiro [01:59:57] Yeah. The things blur now. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:00] So Joseph had how many wives?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:00:03] Yeah. 30 plus.

John Dehlin [02:00:04] And some of them are as young as.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:00:07] Yeah. 14. Yeah. I guess that is there because, I mean, sometimes I Don't remember what the church is willing to say, how far they go.

John Dehlin [02:00:13] And.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:00:14] Yeah, those things.

John Dehlin [02:00:15] Some of them were already.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:00:16] What, already married? Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:18] To other men.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:00:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:20] So he was marrying married women.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:00:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:23] Right.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:00:23] The polyandry thing. Totally.

John Dehlin [02:00:25] And then there were sister pairs and mother daughter pairs, and he was lying. Did he tell Emma?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:00:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:31] Did he let her know that he was getting into these marriages?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:00:33] Yeah. I don't remember if that's the essay. I think admits that. Right. That some. In some cases, she didn't know. And I was like, wait, he was

John Dehlin [02:00:40] hiding it from her?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:00:41] Yeah. And then because my experience with the race and the priesthood essay, I was like, I knew what they were saying was not the full truth. Right. I was like, I ain't gonna research outside of the church material.

John Dehlin [02:00:53] Those are just two super huge things that. The racism and the polygamy of Joseph Smith. No one should be baptized in the Mormon Church without being told those two things. Things at least.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:01:05] Correct?

John Dehlin [02:01:05] Right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:01:06] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:01:07] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're learning them at what age?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:01:11] At that point, 30? I don't know, seven? No, no, no, no, wait. No, it's 41, 42.

John Dehlin [02:01:17] After having served as a missionary, a bishop, a stake president, a seminary teacher. Right. A relief society president, a young women's president, you're given, like a decade or two of your lives to the church, and then in your 40s, you're learning these things.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:01:33] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:01:33] Right.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:01:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:34] It's just not right.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:01:35] No.

John Dehlin [02:01:36] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:01:36] And I felt betrayed and I felt, you know, like Sandra multiple times said, if they told me it was a rock in the hat, how is that any different from freaking glasses made of transparent rocks, you know, crystals?

John Dehlin [02:01:51] So, Sandra, you were saying the stone and the hat don't matter. The urimum Thummim, stone in the hat. But who cares? It's all the same. Which is fine.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:01:59] Yeah. I believe there are other stories. Do you know that they see Jesus and God and then the whole story of the Book of Mormon, this book, like, Burying Hill, Cumorah thing, I did believe. I love that. What the difference?

John Dehlin [02:02:16] Yeah. Like, who cares if it's a urim and thummim or a stone in the hat? It's all kind of. It's all spiritual. It's all a miracle. And so it makes sense that those things wouldn't necessarily bug you. The problem is that we were lied to and deceived about it. But maybe that didn't matter. I mean, the truth is, if the church had been a huge blessing to your life, if it had made you happy? If it had given you all these opportunities and if you were enjoying it and you had friends in Idaho Falls and you were loving raising your kids there, that's a lot of incentive to not care about the history, right?

Sandra Ribeiro [02:02:49] Yes. Okay.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:02:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:51] Yeah. Why? Why? So. So does that mean y' all were in a mixed faith marriage where you were struggling, but Sandra wasn't?

Sandra Ribeiro [02:02:58] I didn't even know he was struggling.

John Dehlin [02:03:01] Oh, so you were, were you? How were you afraid to tell her? Marcelo.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:03:06] What it was, was I wasn't certain about what I was learning at that point. Right. So for a few months, I think I was just researching. I would go down to the basement and lock the door and research. And research. And research.

John Dehlin [02:03:19] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:03:20] And I would go to work the next day, stop in the parking lot and cry and cry and cry because I didn't want any of that to be true. I mean, the lies that the church had done.

John Dehlin [02:03:33] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:03:33] Like, no, there's got to be a way to explain this away. But then it got to a point where it was undeniable. Right. All the problems. And I'm like, so what were some

John Dehlin [02:03:44] of the others besides the priesthood, temple ban and polygamy? Just name a few others.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:03:51] Oh, the whole Book of Mormon not being a historical document. Right. Not have been written by actual Native Americans. The Native Americans not having any DNA from Israel. Right. What is this? And the church changing the narrative, changing the Book of Mormon. Introduction from the. You know, the Nephites are the. I think it used to be the main ancestors, principal ancestors changed to one of the ancestors, whatever they say now among the. Yeah, yeah. I was like, wait, wait, wait a minute. I was told there was millions and millions and they were all over the place. And, you know, all the change in narrative. Right. And the multiple versions of the first

John Dehlin [02:04:35] vision that Joseph Smith changed the story in significant ways.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:04:39] Yes. Over the years and the whole timeline of the thing, it doesn't match when Alvin died and when he supposedly had the vision, when they joined the whatever, Methodist church. It all doesn't line up with what we are told. It's like, whoa. Every day I was discovering something new and it was like pulling the floor from under my feet and falling and drowning. And I started asking for help. I reached out to the bishop, to the stake president. It was an awful experience, particularly with the stake president.

John Dehlin [02:05:14] So did they have answers? Were they helpful?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:05:16] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [02:05:18] How did they react?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:05:19] So the bishop, I was like, I had been a bishop, so I like, I know, I told him, I know you don't have any training in this. I don't expect you to know the answers, but I need someone that does. And you're the only one, you know that can point me the way. And his answer was like, I don't think anyone. I wanted someone to sit down with me and study these things and explain to me what was seen. And he was like, I don't think anyone has the time. What the. Yeah. And I was thinking, institute director, they're paid to do this. Right. And at that point, I didn't know about the CS letter at all. Right. And I actually never read it.

John Dehlin [02:05:55] Oh, yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:05:56] Because when I finally found about it, I was like, I already know all the probably. I don't need to put them together again. And so talk with the bishop. And then Sandra, one day I had this, I think, to me, was a brilliant idea. I have one of those every decade or so. But I was like, sandra, come with me. Talk with the bishop. Because at that point, we had started talking about these things, and Sandra was very resistant. She doesn't want to hear any of it. I printed the essays, and she doesn't want to read them. She'll tell you her side here in a minute, but she's busy for other things. She doesn't have time for that.

John Dehlin [02:06:35] Raising kids, like, yeah, right. Were you working, Sandra? Were you working?

Sandra Ribeiro [02:06:39] I was working, and I was starting to be a real estate. So it was a tough. It was a tough time.

John Dehlin [02:06:46] I learned the language.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:06:48] Yeah. I was trying, like, to, like. Learned the language.

John Dehlin [02:06:51] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:06:51] I was working at di.

John Dehlin [02:06:54] Oh, wow. Desert Industries.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:06:55] Desert Industries was a great time. I did like that. And studying for this real estate test. And Marcelo wants to meet. Read, like, Brigham Young speech in the Congress with that language in English. And I was trying to. Had two thick books to study for real estate, you know, I was like, no.

John Dehlin [02:07:19] Yeah. No, I was like, who cares? Like, it makes us happy. Right?

Sandra Ribeiro [02:07:23] He was like. Like, he was really smart because he was come, like, bring some questions to me little by little, you know, what do you think about that? I'm studying the Old Testament. Look what's happened there. What do you think? Is that why you bring me this? You know, and then he's like, bringing and bring, like, questionings about the Brigham. He compare, like, Brigham, the pre. The priesthood. Not the priest. Yeah, the priesthood. Like the black.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:07:56] The band.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:07:57] How can I say that? The priesthood ban the priesthood band with the LGBT problem right now.

John Dehlin [02:08:03] Oh, right.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:08:05] And I was so pissed because I knew that the LGBT people. I'm sorry, you're not Going to heaven. Right. Because in the Bible says, and was so tough because I had the mentality that we love them, we just do not approve. Approve what they do what they do. And this is so hypocrite. We do know.

John Dehlin [02:08:32] Do you love the sinner, hate the sin?

Sandra Ribeiro [02:08:34] Yeah, that's right. Wrong. Yeah, that's totally wrong.

John Dehlin [02:08:38] But that's what the church taught you.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:08:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:08:40] I was like, yeah. And then I raised, like, to be like, you know, how can I say obedient to. To the. To my husband.

John Dehlin [02:08:50] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:08:51] And then I learned and my core value that my parents taught me, and then I found this church that's saying the same thing. And then I go to the temple and make promised to God to hear my husband. Right.

John Dehlin [02:09:06] And then he's having doubts.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:09:09] Yes.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:09:11] And we had agreed when we married that if anytime one of us got weak in the faith, the other one had the responsibility to kick their butt and bring that back. Right. So Sandra is feeling that responsibility. So I'm comparing. Right. The priesthood ban. Well, if Brigham Young, we know now for sure, 100% he was wrong in what he was teaching as the word of God, what guarantees us that they're not wrong about what they're teaching about the LGBT now? It's another group of people that are banning from privileges in the gospel. Right. What if they're wrong too? Right. Anyway, but Sandra is not accepting that, and

John Dehlin [02:09:55] for good reason.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:09:56] Yeah. So I just. I invite her to come to one of the visits with the bishop. And what that did was that instead of her having to be, you know, in the defensive, you know, defending the church and the faith, she could be just an expectator. And I think that showed her for the first time that I wasn't trying to tear down what we had. I was. I had legit questions, and I wanted it to work.

John Dehlin [02:10:21] You're sincere.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:10:22] Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I wanted it to work.

John Dehlin [02:10:24] Wanted it to work.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:10:25] And the bishop just had nothing. Right.

Difficult Conversations with Church Leaders

John Dehlin [02:10:29] What was it like for you, Sandra, to see that the bishop from America, like, you know, you're converts, you come from another country, it's not even your first language. You come to Idaho, kind of Mormon central. I'm sure he's like a pioneer, you know, Bishop pioneer ancestors Bishop. You think, of course he'll have all the answers. What was it like when your white American Mormon bishop from Idaho didn't have the answers to your Brazilian originating questions?

Sandra Ribeiro [02:10:58] I wasn't expecting him to have answers.

John Dehlin [02:11:00] Really.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:11:01] I was really, like, watching the question, and in my head, I was like, he is Asking this to him, he knows he do not have the answer. You know, I wish he had because he'll solve our problems, Our problems. That, you know, his doubts. And he was just like, bear his testimony. We always. We the church, teach us this. If you don't know, just bear your testimony. Right?

John Dehlin [02:11:34] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:11:34] I have done it teaching in all sorts of callings I had. But actually, I went to two conversations like Marcelo had with this bishop. The first one, I was pretty, like, hopeful because we left the room and he said, just look for the fruits, Marcelo. Look for the fruits. And then at the time, I was like, really looking for the good things church did for us, you know, the good things we have because we had the church in our lives.

John Dehlin [02:12:11] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:12:12] But the second time was completely different. The bishop was, like, more resistant, I think, and said, just like, look, Marcelo, I read the same book, and then here I'm strong in my faith.

John Dehlin [02:12:26] Wait, this is a different bishop or the same bishop? Just a second time.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:12:29] Same bishop. Okay, same bishop. And then what broke my heart when we are. When we are living and, you know, by the door, shaking hands and said, just look, Marcelo, I. I barely was calling for this, you know, for this responsibility, and I have so many good, you know, it didn't say good, like faithful members that I need to nourish. And.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:12:57] Yeah, so basically, he was saying he had 99 sheep. He didn't have time for the one that was trying to go astray. Astray, you know?

Sandra Ribeiro [02:13:06] Yes. Right. There was the message that I was thinking. He was telling Marcelo, literally, I was like, wait a minute. He's saying he has 99 ships and he has. He has no time for this one. And he, like, doubts someone has it.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:13:26] He was like, you can come anytime. We can talk about anything, but not those issues.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:13:32] Also is like, okay, like, don't come anymore. Right.

John Dehlin [02:13:36] He was saying that he did, but

Sandra Ribeiro [02:13:38] for me, it was like he was saying that. He said, look, I have this many people.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:13:44] Like, he didn't say, don't come anymore. He said, don't bring these issues to church because can help you with them. Right. So we can. You can come anytime you want. We can talk about whatever, but I don't have answers to those, so what's the point? Right.

John Dehlin [02:13:59] How did that feel for you, Marcelo, for him to basically say, I can't help you, and I've got other more important things to attend? How did that make you feel?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:14:05] Well, it felt lonely. That was the main thing. During, you know, those months before I started talking with Sandra, I felt very lonely. I had nobody, nobody. I didn't know about Mormon stories. I didn't know any the of the Facebook groups, anything.

John Dehlin [02:14:18] CS letter.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:14:19] I was, I didn't even know about the CS letter. I was alone and I reached out to a friend of mine who works for CS in Brazil, and I was like, for sure he's going to have answers, right?

John Dehlin [02:14:34] In Portuguese.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:14:35] He, he, he was my, I think I can say this. He was my counselor in the Stake Presidency. So we were close. I'm like, man, I'm having these questions. I really need help. And he goes, oh, yeah, no problem. I'm going to study and I'll give you answers. Weeks go by, I think months. And then I'm like, I think weeks. And then I, hey, where are those answers? Still working on them. And yeah, I just don't want to give you half baked answers, but they're coming. I was like, okay. And then months, John. And I'm like, you know what I wrote him. You don't, don't worry about it. I found the answers. And he's like, oh, awesome. He just didn't know the answers weren't in favor of the church.

John Dehlin [02:15:18] But I just have to say that right now, In August of 2024, there's a real push by the Mormon Church to discredit Jeremy Runnels and to say that he wasn't sincere when he wrote the CES letter, that the CES letter is not sincere, that it's deceptive. And I just want to note, your story parallels Jeremy Runnels almost exactly in the sense that you learned these things that you had never been taught and you went to a CES director to get answers and he couldn't answer your questions. Like, it's almost the exact same story just in Portuguese instead of Jeremy's. Like, of course Jeremy was sincere. And of course you're sincere. And hundreds of thousands of more Mormons have had the same experience as us.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:16:06] Yes, me too. You know, it gets better, John.

John Dehlin [02:16:08] Okay, okay, keep going.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:16:10] So we have these talks with the bishop and then Sandra and I are at breakfast table, kids are there. Somehow we start talking about dinosaurs and age of the Earth, and I'm like, millions of years, billions, maybe. Whatever is like, nope, it's 7,000.

John Dehlin [02:16:27] Because the doctrine and Covenants in the says that.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:16:29] Correct. And she's like very literal on that. And we have an argument in front of the kids and that flips a switch on her.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:16:37] Yeah, that was ridiculous. That was ridiculous. I said, no, I, you know, and I was like, witness all Marcelo's like at that time, I knew he had all these, you know, doubts and talking with the bishop and talking with the bishop stake president, I could see that he was genuinely seeking for help.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:17:04] And I decided just, I knelt down and I prayed to God and then I said, just look, I had a covenant with you to listen to my husband, right? And I can see he is like, I know him for years living with this guy. He is being like, like genuinely honest, like his hazard out. And he has a point, right?

Sandra Ribeiro [02:17:32] So look, I trust you and is in your hand, but I'm going to listen what Marcelo had to say. And then that point on I said, marcelo, what you want me to read? Bring them on. And then he didn't bring the Brigham Young's speech anymore. He brought the essays one by one.

John Dehlin [02:17:58] These are the Mormon church's own gospel topics, correct?

Sandra Ribeiro [02:18:01] One by one, this one first sender and then do you know and then came, do you know like polygamy and then the black and the priesthood and

John Dehlin [02:18:12] then probably the Book of Abraham.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:18:15] Book A. Yes. And the rat and hog, the rock and hat. And then one by one I was,

John Dehlin [02:18:24] I was reading English or Portuguese.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:18:28] I think it was in Portuguese. Right.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:18:30] I think I printed them in Portuguese.

John Dehlin [02:18:32] Nice.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:18:32] And then I was like, okay, let's talk about it. Right? And then after all of that said, oh look, you can search also in a those podcasts. And one was your podcast Mormon story podcast. And was was the Vanya Moore podcast.

John Dehlin [02:18:49] And she's, she, we've had Vanyan Mormon stories. She does it in Portuguese.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:18:54] I, I, I did watch all of that. I watched Vanya Moore's interview and the Mormon stories. And then I start to watch Mormon stories. And then I would start to watch Vanya's because at the beginning of her podcast she was like reading and then digest the information with, you know, Brazilians because she was speaking in Portuguese. All those founds she was reading was like, what is the book she was reading about?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:19:31] Was an Eckhart tolle1.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:19:32] No, no, no, no, no. She was reading Righteous Mind. Yeah. And from the Mormon stories that Mormon stories. It was a book about Joseph Smith.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:19:48] Oh, American.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:19:49] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:50] Crucifixion by Alex Beam. We've had him on. That's a great book.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:19:55] She was like just digesting what she was reading and talking about it. I was fascinated with her and with your approach was the stories that was coming, you know, and then I have those source and of course going to church. And then, and then I started to make my own research in my own Way. Right.

John Dehlin [02:20:16] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:20:17] And then. Yeah. I ended up like losing interest in church because it was so hard to be. I was primary secretary. Marcelo was. Was out. Like now I don't want to go to church. It's too hard for me to be there to listen all of that and can say a word. And then I start to feel the same thing because I was bringing my kids with me. And then it's like. Like learning that Joseph Smith came to this young women, like. Like 19 years old, you know, 20 years old, single, and make this horrifying proposal behind their parents back.

John Dehlin [02:21:05] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:21:06] That's not. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:21:07] Behind Emma's back too.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:21:09] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:21:10] Yes.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:21:11] So the approach Joseph Smith went to that people.

John Dehlin [02:21:17] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:21:18] Was not acceptable.

John Dehlin [02:21:20] No.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:21:21] Not for me.

John Dehlin [02:21:22] It's like marry me or. And you get eternal salvation and then if you don't, you get cut off and you're damned. Basically.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:21:30] It's kind of like come and kill me.

John Dehlin [02:21:32] Right. Or an angel with the flaming sword will kill me if you don't agree to marry me.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:21:36] The pressure they put on them to accept the proposed like that. You have to accept it kind of like that.

John Dehlin [02:21:44] Yeah. Or you got 24 hours.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:21:46] Yeah. So you know your family is going to be sealed. So everybody has salvation. Your entire family.

John Dehlin [02:21:54] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:21:54] So that's now. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:21:56] It's abusive.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:21:56] And then you go to the primary and you see that kids being indoctrinated. That. That guy is an amazing guy. Do you know Joseph Smith's. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:06] And Jesus and.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:22:07] Yes. And I. And my. I was like, no, he's not. And now I know. And then they are teaching my kids and I. I did that for years.

John Dehlin [02:22:20] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:22:22] And then I said, I cannot do it anymore. I need a break. You know. And then I asked for the break. I asked to be released. I talked with the primary president and then I said, oh. I said that I would like to go to the Spanish awards too because I genuinely was trying to learn Spanish. And then I was. I have been a Spanish award like maybe two, three times. And then could be a possibility. Not totally lie, but I really need that break. And then I was released. Bishop never asked why. Never came to me. Never talked to me. Never offer support.

John Dehlin [02:23:11] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:23:12] Nothing.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:23:13] My theory is that in the back of his mind he knew why, but he doesn't want to touch that with a six foot pole. Right.

John Dehlin [02:23:20] Well, they don't have answers.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:23:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:22] And they probably have a lot to lose if they lose their faith. I mean, you're a faithful Mormon in Idaho Falls Bishop and all your family and friends and community, your Job is there. Like, it's just too much for most people to deal with. They just want to. They're going to want to ignore it.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:23:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:41] You had mentioned, Marcelo, that your stake president didn't have a good experience with him. Do you want to talk about that?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:23:47] Oh, absolutely. So talk with the bishop a few times, right. We're going through all this thing, and then all of a sudden, I get called to go to the stake presidency for an interview. I'm thinking, oh, great, something I want to talk about it.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:24:01] So I get there, and the counselor, stake president counselor, is, you know, to talk with me. And I sit there and I'm like, okay, so you're probably here to talk about my questions and, you know, the things that I asked the bishop. And he's like, oh, what questions? Oh, so he didn't know at all.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:24:22] So my assumption today is that they were going to extend a calling to me, you know, high councilman or, you know, something with the young man, whatever. I always worked with the youth there in Idaho Falls. I don't know what it was. Definitely not to answer my questions.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:24:38] So I explained the whole thing to him and tell him a couple of what the major questions I had were. And he's like, oh, I don't know any of that. But I read this great book called Planted.

John Dehlin [02:24:51] Oh, Patrick Mason.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:24:53] Correct. So then he wrote on a sticky note the name of the book and gave it to me. Hey, read this book. It's awesome. Yeah, okay, sure. Then I go back home, and again, no answers, right?

John Dehlin [02:25:05] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:25:06] But then I think I procured a stake president, right? And I called and scheduled a meeting with him, so I wanted to talk with him. So he schedules the meeting. So I go there. I am sitting with the stake president, okay, now things will move.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:25:27] Then he. I think I explained why I wanted the conversation, right? So he knew I had questions and everything. So he was very armed, right? He was like. I'm like, I have some questions. And he's like, okay, what were the questions?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:25:44] I have a bunch of them. Let's start with the Book of Mormon translation and the changes that happen. And he barely lets me finish the question. He just shoots it down immediately. And he's like, oh, yeah, I read the original version.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:26:03] The differences are not significant. Next I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. It's more than that. It's more complicated. That's. You know, let's talk about what the changes were and why you think they are not relevant and what I think they are. And yeah, of course, there were thousands of grammatical errors which shouldn't be there in the first place. If the translation would give Joseph, you know, the exact words on the rock. But that's fine. But there are doctrinal changes too.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:26:30] But he just doesn't listen, right? And then I tried a second question. I don't remember now what it was, but then again, he just shot. I think it was polygamy maybe, maybe with blacks and priests, but he just shoots it down immediately, right? And he's like, look, I know there's all these anti Mormon literature out there. You shouldn't listen to that stuff and blah, blah, blah. And you know, I have a testimony. And she bore his testimony. And 15 minutes he had something else to do. So we stood up and he hugged me and said he loved me. And I left as empty as I entered.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:27:09] And I'm like, that was not helpful at all. I wrote him a letter afterwards, like politely saying, look, I just want you to understand what you did did not help me. I didn't want him to go back home and feel like he fulfilled his calling and helped me bearing his testimony. I said, no, that's not what's going to solve the problem.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:27:33] He told me later that he never got the letter, which is. I don't know. It's weird because I don't know. Postal service never failed me before I sent a snail mail letter, right? They never failed me before, ever. So very convenient that he failed at this.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:27:49] They're always the first time.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:27:52] But yeah. So he gave me 15 minutes to try and solve my questions, and he spent hours deciding if he wanted to excommunicate me or not. That's later in the story.

John Dehlin [02:28:03] Oh, well, let's go there.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:28:04] Yeah. So anyway, so I'm having all this experience with leaders. Nobody has time to talk to me. Remember that trip to Lake Powell? Right. So it's an annual thing. So a year goes by, another trip. And that one guy that put the book Sapiens to play, he was going to be there. Barely knew him. Colleague from work, different department, barely knew him. So I go there. I'm like, I need a chance to talk to him, right? So I'm there. And I remember John, I'm on top of a houseboat. Sky is as clear as I can get. First time I ever see the Milky Way in my life.

Searching for God and Deciding to Leave

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:28:47] Never seen it before. It was so dark there, right? Lake Powell is so nice. And I'm praying and talking to God. Look, I don't want to go down this path if it's not the right one. Tell Me now. Show me.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:29:00] Right? And then a bunch of guys come up and they want to watch NFL game, whatever. I'm not into that. So I go down, I see that guy again, and he's talking about LGBT stuff, and he's siding with lgbt. And the other guy is like, you know, coming down, lgbt, how wrong it is. And, you know, it's not of God and blah, blah, blah, and unnatural, all those things. Like, now that's the sign. This sign. I want. I need. I need to talk to this guy. So I reached out to him after the trip, and I think it was 2017, 2018, on a general conference Sunday.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:29:40] So the trip was September. So in October, I reached out to him. Hey, I need to talk. And he's like, yeah, absolutely. So we go to a coffee shop, Starbucks on a Saturday. That's sinful, right? They sell hot chocolate, too.

John Dehlin [02:29:54] Okay. Still the appearance of evil.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:29:57] I'm just kidding, right? So we go there on a Saturday of general conference, and he spends three hours with me, my leaders, my pastors, didn't have more than 15 minutes. And a guy that I barely knew. And then he introduced me. I didn't even know what a podcast was. So he started talking to me about podcasts, and he gives me a bunch of resources, going from your podcast all the way down to Infants on the Thrones and everything in between and books and, you know, Fair Mormon and Mormonthink and all those resources.

John Dehlin [02:30:34] Probably CS Letter at that point.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:30:36] Yeah, yeah, maybe. Maybe he talked about this yesterday, But Mormon thinks, great.

John Dehlin [02:30:40] We don't mention that enough.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:30:42] Right? And then he's talking, and I'm crying and opening my heart and really pouring it all. And I think we might have spoke a little bit loud, because then someone, a lady there, comes to us. Hey, I heard you guys talk about the church. You have any questions I can answer? Lady, you have no idea. I do have questions. I don't think you want to hear them, though.

John Dehlin [02:31:04] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:31:05] But anyway, so from then on, then I had the resources, and I started getting to, you know, Mormon spectrum at that time and started meeting people right? Locally. That was game changer, right? And then you came to Idaho Falls, and we had. You did a retreat there. Like 90, 100, 120 people showed up.

John Dehlin [02:31:27] That was. I think it was 20, 2012, 2018. Yes, yes.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:31:32] So Sandra was still in the church, and she came, and it was great because she saw that ex Mormons were drooling, mad people. They were normal. They were trying to find a way to live better and find solutions to the Problems they had. Anyway, so we go through that and decide to leave the church. Oh, there's a whole thing how we dealt with the kids at that point and everything. But after a few months, I started thinking, hey, what is out there in Portuguese that people can study about these things? And I looked up and There was one YouTube channel, there was one website that hadn't been updated in ages. And the one YouTube channel, we know the person that has that channel, we love her, but it's a different approach, a little more.

John Dehlin [02:32:33] Aggressive.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:32:34] Aggressive? Yeah, a little more aggressive. Harsh. You know, really, like, church is awful. I'm like, no, my experience with the church wasn't awful, was great. Actually. It doesn't work for me anymore. And that's not how I want to talk about this. Right? And there was a gap. There was something missing. And then I decided to start a channel. The very first thing I thought about doing was like, I'm gonna take the church essay on race and priesthood, and I'm gonna dismantle that thing and show everything that's wrong there. Like, side by side comparison, right? What they say, what the truth is, right? So I write the whole script.

John Dehlin [02:33:08] Wow.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:33:09] And I show Sandra and I show a couple people. And other people were like, ah, that's great. And Sonny's like, I don't know. That's very much in line with what the other approach is. I was like, okay, fine. And then she says, why don't you start just reading the essays? Right? And that's what I did. The first 13 videos are me just reading the essays in Portuguese. I read a couple questions and I ask a couple questions just for reflection, but 90% just reading the essay.

John Dehlin [02:33:42] And for those who join late, tell them the name of the YouTube channel again.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:33:48] Okay, so Mormonismo Sense and Sura with American English accent.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:33:53] One reason that I. I told Marcelo, like, I didn't. How can I support the. The. The first approach he brought to me, like, like, kind of a battle look. Like. Like, I want to prove that you. What you said, it was like, you know, it's what's wrong, it's not what's like that. It's different, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I don't know. I don't know if I was looking, researching. And I was too kind to make sense. If I will, I don't know, watch that channel. If I was like, these people. I don't know. This person has questions. I will not at the point send Vanya more videos. But maybe Mormon Stories podcast was a good one. But we do not have in Portuguese. So let's do like the difference, like, what about you? Because the essays itself tells a lot. Let's start with that. And he did agree, so.

John Dehlin [02:35:01] And most the church put those out because we on the Internet were making the information so well known and they didn't have any good answers. They put those essays out so that if people had questions, they could get some answers, even if they're bad answers. But they didn't publicize them to the membership on purpose because they didn't want to spread doubts. And so even though those essays existed, you know, not in the United States and certainly not in Brazil, were the members ever made aware that those essays were there? Yeah. So just reading them is brilliant.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:35:38] Yeah, yeah. And I'll tell you, the. The website in Portuguese made even harder to find essays than in English.

John Dehlin [02:35:45] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:35:46] It was like, you need to know what you're looking for and being a little persistent to get there.

John Dehlin [02:35:50] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:35:51] And a lot of the links, like that link, what was it? I know that there are some links that you can find in the English version that are not there in Portuguese. There are a lot of those videos that now we know, videos that the church publicize here or cartoons, A lot of them are not available in Portuguese. The more controversial subjects are not available because nobody's asking those questions at that point in Brazil. So the church is just, you know, damage managing. Right. Just what is needed.

John Dehlin [02:36:20] They're being open and transparent on a need to know basis.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:36:23] Exactly, exactly. Right. And the funny thing is that I just started reading those essays and a lot of people commenting, this is a lie. This is anti Mormon stuff. Like is the church material, you know. But it was very funny.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:36:41] I was kicked out from the one of the like church Facebook group because I shared one of Marcelo's video.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:36:55] Oh yeah, the one that I was just reading. The essay.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:36:57] Yeah, the essay. Other thing that I think is important to point it out. When Marcelo decided to do the channel, he had this feeling that I was there out there in a mission for two years, teaching the people about this story, about this church, this one true church that now I know is not true church. Do you know what I mean? It is a church, but that is not. It's not the only church that will take you back to Heavenly Father.

John Dehlin [02:37:29] Right.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:37:29] And then I said, but I cannot go back and say, hey, I was wrong, but I will do something that it will be out there. And if they people, these people come back to me and say, hey, you taught me that. And now you going to Another direction. Why you didn't tell me the. Yeah, you know, the true. When you discover.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:37:55] And he can say it's out there is in the website. I cannot go, you know, because if you go to a person that is like in their life, living their faith, doing everything, they are happy, you, you, you, then you're not going to bug that person.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:38:15] But the information that we have right now, we have the right to tell and inform the people. It's out there and anyone can have it. If you don't want to hear, if you don't want to know about the church history in Portuguese, the history the church doesn't like to tell in Sunday school, don't go to Mohammedismo San Sensure. Don't go there.

John Dehlin [02:38:48] Right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:38:49] Yeah. You don't have to, Right?

Sandra Ribeiro [02:38:50] Yeah.

Facing Potential Discipline and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [02:38:52] I'm curious. You mentioned your stake president. He considered whether or not to excommunicate you. Was there more to that story?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:38:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:00] Okay. Does that come later or is that.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:39:02] Yeah, we can talk about that now. Yeah, yeah. So just one thing, right, about the YouTube channel, right, where we started a couple things. Things, right? First, honesty. Honesty is my number one value above anything else. I've done some stupid things sometimes just to be honest, right.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:39:21] I had one that I wanted to say. Now it flat me, but I'll remember in a minute. Oh yeah, I was gonna say even like in movies, right, when I'm watching a movie and the main character needs to hide the truth from their loved one to protect them, like, no, you tell them the truth and let them decide if they want to be part, if they want to send you away, whatever it is, right? Like it bothers me so deeply at that level just to give you an idea, right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:39:51] So that was one and the second, like Sandra said, right. I taught this for so long what the church, you know, gave to me and just pass it along. What if in the future someone like 10 years down the road comes to me, hey, you knew all this. You never told me. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want to go, you know, be in that position, right. I want to tell everybody. So we wrote a letter to our closest friends explaining we are not, you know, we don't believe in the church anymore. We're not going to get into details.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:40:22] We just studied long and hard and prayed and fasted and we decided what the church told us is not true. If you want to know more, we are happy to tell you. If you don't, that's fine. If you want to invite us to baptism, anything church function, we'll go, you know, no problems.

John Dehlin [02:40:39] These are friends in your Ammon, Idaho.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:40:41] No, no, no. Idaho Falls Ward friends, period. Our closest friends, I think we sent like 30 letters. Some in Brazil, some here in Utah, some in Idaho Falls, mostly Brazilians. Really.

John Dehlin [02:40:53] Okay, got it.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:40:55] So some we had to send emails and stuff like that. So I sent to all of them. Like, I don't want you to find out through someone else through gossiping or whatever. Yeah. And I want you to know that if you want to talk about it, I'm. I'm here. Right. Anyway, so we start the channel and everything, and then we feel the need to start a Facebook group. Support group. Well, initially was a place where people could talk about this issues from both sides without censorship. Right. That's the name of the channel.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:41:24] But late years later, it evolved into more of a support group. Right. So church members, John, that joined the group, they could not respect the pain of people going through it. They were just like, you're just, you know, they wouldn't use these words. Sometimes they would.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:41:41] Basically the message would be like, you're just babies. You guys like complain. You wanted to sin. You wanted to just leave the church. You want to just find an excuse now to explain what you wanted to do all along and that kind of stuff. Right.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:41:52] Never had a testimony.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:41:54] Yeah. The whole walk a mole thing. Right. It doesn't matter. You find solution for one. Another one pops and he never ends. Right. All that and the rule, my saying, the channel rights without censorship, but with respect. So I say that in every video. Nice, right?

John Dehlin [02:42:10] Smart.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:42:10] And the rule of the Facebook group is like, you can say, you can disagree with any ideas, but you cannot disrespect or minimize anyone's pain. Members cannot do that. The members that joined the channel, I mean, the Facebook group.

John Dehlin [02:42:24] Does the Facebook group have the same name as the YouTube channel?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:42:27] Yes. And then one by one, they started getting kicked out of the group. Right. We would give them warning. You're disrespecting people, you're hurting them. You know, it's like you come into a therapy session about, you know, abusive about. Someone is trying to heal from an abusive relationship. You're defending the abuser. So that's not the time for that. Right. But anyway, so one person that got kicked out of the group decided to locate my stake president. This guy lives in Germany. He works for one of the church affiliated companies there in Europe.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:43:04] So he reaches out to my stake president, tells him the whole story. He sends him, I think he sent prints and stuff, talked about the channel, it was anti Mormon stuff. Then my stake president talks to the bishop. The bishop has to come talk to me. And he's like, the stake president feels he cannot not do something right. I was like, oh, before, he felt he could just ignore my pain and my questions. Now he cannot not do something right. That fine. And so they want to know what the channel is about. Is it anti Mormon? Am I in apostasy?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:43:41] And the stake president calls me in for an interview. So I go there, and in his defense, John, the man was so nervous, he was shaking, right? There was one point in. In the interview, and I was like, I'm gonna go there. I'm gonna ace this thing. You know, I'm gonna put my elbows on his desk, and I'm gonna share my position. You know, I'm ready. He is not.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:44:08] He's like. There was one point. He's a doctor, and he was on call. So he has to take a call right during the conversation. And you can see his hand shaking when he's answered the phone to the point that he puts on the other side and, you know, puts against his shoulder to not show how nervous he was.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:44:25] So he wasn't doing that, you know, for malicious reasons. He just felt like it was his duty. Right. That's how I read it. But anyway, he spends one hour with me at this point now, not 15 minutes, one hour. And we're talking about these things and how he's trying to understand the channel. He actually asked members of the stake that served in Brazil to watch my videos and come back and report to him what they saw.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:44:54] And the funny thing is that in the beginning of the conversation, he's giving me all. All the hints for me to know who the person that, you know. Told him.

John Dehlin [02:45:05] Told on you? Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:45:06] Told him. Yeah. And I'm, like, puzzled. I mean, why is he doing this? Right. I don't think you. I would. Anyone would. But anyway, I find out that the guy that contacted him reached out through a, you know, a VOIP phone or whatever. So this. They didn't exchange contact information, so he didn't have a way to contact that guy back to get more details and maybe get his deposition for a potential court in the church, Right? So he's giving me all the hints, so I know I figured out who the person is, which I did. And he wanted me to tell him who the person was. I was like, president, you want me to give you ammunition against myself? I don't think that is very wise and doesn't make sense.

John Dehlin [02:45:51] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:45:52] But Anyway, so we don't go into the questions I had. He never tried to answer any of them. His point was trying to figure out if he could fit me in the box of apostasy, right? If I was a wolf in sheep's clothing or whatever and was trying to pull people away from the church and all that stuff.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:46:16] I was in leadership callings. I understand how I've been. Been in multiple of those kind of conversations, disciplinary actions, all that stuff. I know what he's trying to do. And the church has those three functions for disciplinary action, right? It's protect the good name of the church, protect the innocent, and help the person repent. Repent, right. And I'm like, all the time, there's only one of those things being hammered on. It's not helping me. It's not helping the innocent. It's protecting the church.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:46:51] So we have that conversation, we leave, and he asks for access to the Facebook group. He wants to see what's going on there. I was like, I don't know. Let me think about that. Then later I decide to, yeah, that's fine. You can access with me there. Because I don't want you getting screenshots of what other people are saying. You can read everything I say. I don't care.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:47:15] But it's like the promise of the group. It's a private, safe space. I don't want you, you know, copying what people are saying, sending to their stake presidents, right? And the funny thing is that from. For a period of time, right after that American profile start, you know, trying to join the group.

John Dehlin [02:47:35] So he shared it with very specific headquarters. And then, yeah, they tried to send spies.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:47:41] I can't prove that, but was very timely, very suspicious, Right?

John Dehlin [02:47:44] Of course, it's true.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:47:46] Anyway, so some time goes by, and he wants me to talk with the other members of the stake presidency, right? So, okay, fine, I go talk to a counselor. Same thing all the time. Just trying to identify if they could, you know, pin me with apostasy. And I'm like, oh, one thing with the stake president was funny. He at one point, he said, if you're angry with the church, why don't you just remove your name?

John Dehlin [02:48:17] They always say that, right? Always just say, just make our lives easier by leaving.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:48:23] You know what I mean? And I'm like, in my, no, you want me out, you're gonna have to do it the hard way. That's why my name is still there.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:48:32] By the way, you've done your need to pop this question, right?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:48:36] Yes, but. And I had read the church handbook about, you know, disciplinary action in preparation for that conversation. So when he says that, like, by the way, president, you're not supposed to tell me that. You're not supposed to encourage a member to remove their name.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:48:52] And he's like, he doesn't have an answer for that. But anyway, so talk with the other counselor. Then weeks later, talk to the second counselor. And then this time, I'm tired of this whole thing. They wanted Sandra to come, and she's like, what? I don't have anything to tell them. If they have answers, I'll go. But if it's just the same, I'm not wasting time. And I'm like, patiently going, I want them. If you want to excommunicate me, it's fine.

Life After Mormonism and Finding Happiness

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:49:20] There is nothing there that you can excommunicate me for. But it's your prerogative. If you excommunicate me, it's your choice. You can do whatever you want. Right? And that was one thing that I loved about one episode, Jon, you did right after your excommunication. I remember I was on the supermarket. I remember exactly what I was when I was listening on my headphones, and you said, the church. It's the church prerogative who they keep in or they kick out. And you didn't sound mad at all. I was like, how he should be mad. You know, that was like, at that moment, I was sold with more stories. Right. He's not an angry man.

John Dehlin [02:50:02] No.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:50:03] And their club, their rules. Exactly. Right. And that's. I've said that multiple times from what I learned from you. And then, anyway, I go to talk with the second counselor, and like, look, if it's more of the same. I don't have time for this. I have questions. Do you have answers? And he's like, no, no, no. And I think I kind of tried to go in the direction of a question. And he's like, no, no, no, no. Let's leave those to the men with the keys. Meaning they stake president. I was like, what do keys have anything to do with the questions about church history or anything?

John Dehlin [02:50:38] They certainly don't come. Those keys don't come with answers, that's for sure.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:50:41] Exactly. I was like, no, this is dumb.

John Dehlin [02:50:45] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:50:45] But anyway, I think. I think in the end what happened was they judged that whatever damage I was making wasn't that big or wasn't in their backyard. Because my audience in Brazil. So it's not in Idaho Falls, right? It's not. It's not there.

John Dehlin [02:51:03] Flock.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:51:04] Flock.

John Dehlin [02:51:04] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:51:05] Thank you so and then weeks, months go by and like, not even. Not even any kind of report back on, hey, we're not going to do anything or we will or whatever. That I reached out and like, did you guys reach a decision? And then they like, we decided not to do anything. Now I was like, cool, thanks for letting me know.

John Dehlin [02:51:24] So you weren't excommunicated?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:51:26] No.

John Dehlin [02:51:26] Congrats. Yeah, it's not fun. So, you know, I don't know.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:51:30] I. I was totally planning on making it a lot of fun. Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:51:34] They sent me the invitation to talk with the stake president, and I knew that was about that. It was like interviewing Masalo. And I said, no, I'm not going. They. This guy, they don't know me. They know my name and a list of members. That's it. Yeah, they're just trying to talk to me to, I don't know, try to find information. Yeah, I didn't.

John Dehlin [02:52:01] I won't bother. Yeah, so I guess a couple as we kind of reach kind of the end. Ish of this episode. I have a few questions before we end. One is just how do you feel about how much the church meant to you in your lives, especially during those early adult years?

John Dehlin [02:52:28] And then all the experiences you had, including bishop seminary teacher, relief study president, young women's president, stake president, then coming here, getting your mba, raising your family here. Just all the, I would assume, positive experiences, all the ways the church has helped and blessed your lives. You both speak English. You're probably making a lot more money than you would be in Brazil. I'm assuming your kids are probably getting a better education.

John Dehlin [02:52:58] How do you balance your gratitude to the church for the fact that now you feel like it betrayed you and lied to you and is no longer true. And you probably want other people to see that too, which then would mean other people might not have the same benefits that you had. How do you work through. And you can both answer this. How do you work through that? I would think, and it is for me, that that would be really confusing. That would be really conflicting. How is it. How is it for you?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:53:31] I can't. I can't count how many times people told me you're. We have a saying in Portuguese. I don't know how we how what the English version would be, but we say you're spitting in the plate you ate. So just meaning you're being ungrateful. Right. So it's basically like someone helped me and helped you and now you're spitting on them.

John Dehlin [02:53:49] I mean, I've heard. Don't Poop in your nest, you know what I mean?

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:53:51] Right? Something like that. Right. So just basically accusing me of being ungrateful or. Look, so many good things church gave to. Gave to you, Right? Yeah, especially the, you know, multiple times the scholarship I mentioned that I came with to go to byu. Right. Which by the way, wasn't church sponsored. Was a bunch of church members, I think. Yeah, no, no, no, it was rich. Church members just created this trust fund and invest the money in whatever interest they help people come to get a better education. Right?

John Dehlin [02:54:23] Yeah, yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:54:23] I was like, yeah, the amount of tithing I paid for 24 years would have paid for that multiple times over. Okay, right. So I'm not in debt for that. Plus the 24 years I worked my tail off for the church, I was happy doing so because I believed in it. It was a lot of work. As I say, as I said, for those seven years and a half that was a bishop and a stake president was at least 20 hours a week I was giving in.

John Dehlin [02:54:51] And you weren't being paid. You were paying to serve the church.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:54:55] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:54:55] And to grow and build the church.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:54:56] Exactly. And then you had those two years as a missionary. Right. And then all the other years, all the other callings I had, they all took time and effort and money and my guests driving around. Right. So I don't feel like I owe the church anything. It was a mutual agreement where one side knew everything and me on the other side knew just what they wanted me to know. Right. So it was not fair. That's why I think when I think about the covenants that I made right. In the temple, for example, I don't feel like I broke anything because the premise upon which they were made were true.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:55:34] I didn't have the full information. So the contract's nullified at that point. Right. In my mind, when we started the channel, right. And people started reaching out. And every week, John, every month, people reach out, hey, I'm going through this. I need to talk to someone. And I'm like, yeah, I'm available. That's my charity work now. I don't pay tithing, I don't work, volunteer for soup kitchen or whatever. But that's my volunteer work. I donate hours to that, to the channel and to helping people outside of what is publicized in the channel. But anyway, so the very first time someone reached out and sent me an audio message saying, hey, thank you for what it's doing.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:56:20] Thanks to you, I am now leaving the church. I wasn't happy when I. When I saw that I was like, that's a lot of responsibility.

John Dehlin [02:56:30] Yeah, I felt the same way.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:56:32] Right.

John Dehlin [02:56:32] I shut down Mormon stories when I got that first email.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:56:36] Right.

John Dehlin [02:56:36] For a while I felt so terrible.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:56:38] Yeah, Yeah. I was like, oh, man, I don't know if this is good. You know, of course, over time I got over that and because my intention is not to take anyone out of the church, just, you now have the information, do whatever. When people said, you know, make comments in my videos, I know all these things and I love the church as a awesome, great, true things that they don't know all those things, they know what the church told them in the essays of whatever in the book Saints and all that stuff, which is not 100%, but anyway.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:57:13] Which is awesome as a inoculation tool. Right. When you're going to talk to someone. No, I already read about this. No, no, no, no. You don't know, you know, 10% of it. But. And then there was one time where a servant bishop contacted me on WhatsApp, which is a popular texting app outside of the U.S. so he reached out and he's like, hey, I binge watched your videos over the long weekend, three day weekend, and I'm turning my resignation from the calling and from the church.

John Dehlin [02:57:45] Wow.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:57:45] It's like three days. I'm like, whoa, let's talk about this. Let's not be, you know, not in a hurry. Let's think about it. They're like, no, no, no, no. I'm pretty sure about it. And we've been in contact ever since. They're doing fine. They're doing great. He's Brazilian, Yes. Yeah. Well, actually, no. But yeah, he was in Brazil. His wife is Brazilian. He's from another country.

John Dehlin [02:58:09] Got it.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:58:11] But yeah, it's not like, yeah, I want to destroy the church. No, I just. And actually, it frustrates me when members get, get mad about what we do and what you do and they don't realize so many changes in the right direction the church has done because of this. Right. You know, loosening up their policies on so many things. Right. And changing temple, you know, ordinances and the covenants and, you know, being easier on missionaries and all that stuff.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:58:44] Yeah, you're welcome. You know, it wouldn't happen if people weren't talking about this. Right. So, yeah, I just feel like I want people to know. And so many times I've thought, you know what? I think there is enough information out there for people to make their decisions. But then people keep telling, oh, no, don't stop, don't Stop, keep doing it. And you know, there are more stuff to talk about and there are stories and current events and whatever. Right.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:59:10] But what is really in my heart, the main thing that I love is the Facebook group. Group where you can really chat and connect. And again, back to what I said when I was released as a Stake president. Right. Is the one individual, right. That one on one connection. That's what fuels me.

John Dehlin [02:59:31] Beautiful.

Marcelo Ribeiro [02:59:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:32] How about you, Sandra?

Sandra Ribeiro [02:59:33] Yeah. It's like I'm still grateful for the church. It appears in a time that I need and fulfill its callings. It fulfilled its callings to me. And then same way I paid to be there. Do you know, I paid my part to be part of the LDS membership.

Sandra Ribeiro [02:59:59] We gave our blood kind of to that church. We did everything in our power. We changed without notice that we are changing. We became like not so close to our family because the church became our family and take over, took over. And we didn't realize because we're so involved.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:00:25] So yes, I. I don't feel that I owe anything to the church. And if someone owes something, I think is the other way around. So yeah, we, we, we. When Marcelo decided that was discovering all of this, we. We paid not 10% of our income, it was 11% because 10% was the, the tithing. And 1% is offering like fast offering all the. All, you know, all kinds of offerings because we have to be generous, right?

John Dehlin [03:01:03] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:01:04] Oh my gosh. Anyway, yeah, so the channel is like the same way. You don't want to destroy the church. We don't want to destroy the church. We like the church. Church do good and great things. But we discovered that at the same time it can do really bad things for some people.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:01:32] Right now what bothers me about the church is because it's still trying to convince people that it's the only way to go back to God. There is no other way. And this like teaching itself can separate families. Right.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:01:54] In Brazil, there are so many converts that like me, I was the only member of the church. All my entire family was. It is still Catholic. So it separates us from heaven. Because I'm going to the celestial and my family is not going to be there, right? Actually, I'm not going because I resignates and my name is not there. So probably I'll be in the other.

John Dehlin [03:02:23] You resigned from the mortgage?

Sandra Ribeiro [03:02:25] I did resign, yeah. So many things that happen when we send the letters for our friends. You know, I am really, I emotional, attached with people. I'm your friend. I'll give my love. And then I will feel your love. Right. Once I was like discovering that my church friends was only church friends.

John Dehlin [03:02:51] Right.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:02:51] And not real friends. And then I discovered that probably I was going to the same way. You know, if I had the mentality, once you're not member of my church, once you do not believe what I believe, so our friendship, you will feel fade.

John Dehlin [03:03:14] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:03:15] So the people that answer our letters, when we send our friends that we are living, it's. This is like, if you want to talk about, just ask. We have the channel, but we are not talking to you about it. And a lot of them said, oh, the friendship will never change.

John Dehlin [03:03:36] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:03:37] Yeah. They no longer invite us for anything. Baptism. Nope. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. So it's just they are not real friends. They are just like the church is not real.

John Dehlin [03:03:54] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:03:55] Some friends did stay right. To be fair. But most, oh, most left. Right. We sent out like 30 letters to our closest friends. I think two or three responded something. But just like, sorry about that.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:04:10] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:04:10] It was the extent of it. The friends that we are still. We still have that are members of the church. We don't talk about church stuff. Right. And I'm like, I learned the hard way. Like the other day, a friend of mine, I was snowboarding with a friend and he's saying something about church doesn't force you to do anything. I was like, well, let's not talk about. About. I don't want to talk about that. I purposefully avoid. Unless I know they're hungry for it. Right. But it's like, what's the point? And Sandra was always an excellent missionary. Right. She brought people to church. Her sister being one, her niece. And I was never good at selling the church. Right. Once you're in, man, I'll go to the moon for you and I'll take you with me. But anyway. And the same way, she's an excellent missionary after the church, so she'll talk about things.

John Dehlin [03:05:05] She's a good ex Mormon missionary.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:05:06] Oh, yeah. She'll talk about these things like they're nothing. And people get offended by that. I was like, sandra, let's calm down. It's taboo for, you know, for them.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:05:18] I didn't know I have to learn, like with my mistake weeks because that is the way I am.

John Dehlin [03:05:26] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:05:27] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:05:27] I just, I was just tell the truth. Sharing what I was learning.

John Dehlin [03:05:31] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:05:32] And I was not doing with everybody. Right. I'm not that crazy.

John Dehlin [03:05:36] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:05:37] But with some people that I thought that has a open mind, you know. Then I think, what is not that kind so strict with church. Was like my open, more flexible, you know, sometimes do things they're not supposed to do. And then not in a bad way, not in a bad way, but I was like, oh, this person, this one, I can talk about it, you know, and then I start we're like sharing what we're learning and then later we discover that they're feeling not comfortable with the conversation. Yeah, let's find a way to make us know.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:06:16] Yeah. We learned the hard way that non compliance doesn't mean non belief. Someone that's not living by all the rules, that the church, they're wearing clothes, that they're clearly not wearing garments or whatever. Things like that does not mean you can talk negative things about the church.

John Dehlin [03:06:35] It's never processed. It's truthfulness. They just don't like living all the standards.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:06:42] And we've known people that are completely inactive. Yeah, but you don't talk bad about the church. And that makes me feel even worse for them because I understand the pain and the guilt they're feeling because they're inactive because they still believe.

John Dehlin [03:06:57] Guilt.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:06:57] They just can't live all the things that I think they should be doing.

John Dehlin [03:07:03] Well, this is brilliant. Let me just ask you a couple super quick questions. Brazil boasts, I think over a million members, if I'm not mistaken.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:07:14] Yeah, more than a million. I think it's 1.2 or something.

John Dehlin [03:07:15] Okay, just really quickly, what's your perception of the percentage of those who are actually actively attending self identifying, faithful members?

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:07:28] I would say probably between 25 and 30%. A third of the members, well, two thirds for sure are not active. Yeah, yeah, I remember. It was a funny story real quick when we were trying to create a new stake. Right. When I was released as stake president, we created a new stake and there are numbers behind that. Right. And we were super good about cleaning up records. Right. Everybody that we don't know where they live, we sent to church headquarters as like unknown address. We don't want those records here, just clogging, you know, whatever. When we were preparing for home teaching, whatever.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:08:06] And then we're submitting the papers to divide the stake and we don't have enough records because it's not just the number of people attending in priesthood and all that stuff. You need a certain number of records. And we didn't have enough even though everything else.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:08:22] And then all of a sudden the church had some sort of contact with credit bureau agencies, whatever. They found the last known address of all those people that were unknown address before and sent it all back to the units. Right. And then again, I have a really good understanding, at least in our area, my stake, and from talking with other stake presidents at the time. And I believe it's true for the whole country. At least two thirds are inactive, if not more.

John Dehlin [03:08:55] Yeah, My understanding is it's as low as 10 to 20% of, of the membership in Brazil. Mormon Church membership are actually active.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:09:03] Could be.

John Dehlin [03:09:04] Next question, really quick. Do you get the sense, you know, you get the sense in the English speaking Mormon world that people are learning about the truth claims, learning about the history, learning about the, you know, becoming concerned about the treatment of women, about the racism and the LGBT stuff and they're leaving in droves? Are Brazilian Mormons learning about these problems at the same rate as American or English speaking Mormons? Are they leaving at the same rate? And if not, why? Why aren't Brazilian Mormons having the same level of concern as is happening here?

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:09:52] If, you know, I would say what you need to keep in mind is like, for example, we've been in the US for what, since 2009? 15 years. I have known of maybe one handful. I could count the baptisms I've seen in the wars. I've been here in more than one, right. Multiple wards. Like I could count in one hand how many converts baptized.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:10:17] So in Brazil is the completely the opposite, right? Most people have been baptized, brought by the missionaries and they had one week, two week exposure to the church. So they. Yeah, sure, yeah, they're Christian. All roads lead to Christ, right? So there isn't that strong commitment. So there's a strong number that leaves right there, right? The first year retention is awful.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:10:37] Those who stay, that get involved in the callings got really like embraced by the church and the church works for them. Those are the ones that stay and are hard. You know, that's. Those are the ones that get hit hard when they learn the truth. But that's right there you already got rid of, you know, quote, unquote got rid of, you know, I don't know, super high percentage of people who joined. So you have a very small number left. And then the material is not available in Portuguese, very little. We have the essays, my channel, a handful of YouTube channels that came up after that.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:11:14] And Vanya's channel, which is hers, is the biggest one. So they're very limited, right? So no, people are not learning this at the same rate. And two, the ones that are members, if you did like a ratio, the commitment of those who are in the church past the first year in Brazil is much, much, much higher than People here in, you know, Utah, Idaho, there is no social Mormon in Brazil. Because your family is not a member, you don't have a social pressure to stay. You stay because you believe.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:11:51] Right. And when you, those who left in the first years because the church didn't work for them, they don't have any reason to look back. So they don't, they're not watching my channel, they're not reading essays, they don't care. Right. Church was a blip in their radar. Right. So there's a very different demographics there.

John Dehlin [03:12:10] Okay. And I guess I want to end by asking you guys if you feel happy now, if you've been able to find friends, if you are comfortable raising your kids, you're freaking in Idaho, Falls am in Idaho. And you no longer believe the church is true. And half of the people you run into are faithful Mormons or at least self identifying Mormons. And by the way, the church teaches wickedness never was happiness. There's nothing more wicked than leaving the true church. Each of you just share if you're happy and if you are, how you found happiness.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:12:48] Yeah. So now it's a different life, right? To have to rebuild myself because I have to deconstruct my beliefs. So I have to figure out, so in the beginning we run everywhere, like where do I go, right? Finding things. At this point I'm more comfortable not knowing and there is no like hurry to know whatever. Now I'm learning as life is bring me get interest for right now I'm teaching my kids to be good person, good values and we can change our mind. If a value no longer fits our family or one of my kids, we will reconsider, we'll bring new values, right? And

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:14:00] great.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:14:00] I had a great time when I was in a church. I had bad times as well when I was in a church. Don't take me wrong. I have like great losses of my life because of the church. But it's in the past. I'm a new person.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:14:20] And also a year ago I, I just discover that I, I am neurodivergent. So I have ADHD explain so much of my behavior, right. And in my limitations. And now I like trying to figure out who is this new Sandra with adhd, with all my bag, baggage, bag of knowledge that I bring to me, to my life is just new things coming and I do not have the pressure to learn more, to read every day about it, to have a testimony. Do you know, I'm just learning and not everything I'm learning will fit my life and If I don't need to do it, there is no more pressure to be, you know, worthy, fulfill callings, because if you do not fulfill those callings, like, you know, you're not doing everything right. So there is. There is no pressure anymore. So this, for me, is freedom.

John Dehlin [03:15:48] Beautiful. Beautiful.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:15:49] Yeah. I will live my life as fast as I can, and I will do my best for my family, my friends, my community, right? I'm still serving and does that doesn't need to be in the church or, you know, I'm still serving. I serve my community. I have this new job that I love is in a mental health hospital. I go in there. I know they pay me, but I go there and then at helping people to get better. That's it.

John Dehlin [03:16:30] Beautiful.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:16:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:32] Beautiful. Marcelo.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:16:34] Oh, life doesn't stop, right? You know, same things that happened before continue happening, right? You have struggles, you have challenges, you have good moments, bad moments. When I reflect about not being in the church today, I feel extreme, deep happiness, right? Because now I am the. The world just expanded to me so much, right? I can't get anything from the whole ocean. Instead of being limited to a little fishbowl, right? Information, my opinions. I don't. I'm not. I don't have a commitment to do something I don't agree with or I don't believe in.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:17:17] There's a lot more uncertainty, and it took a while to be comfortable with that. Where am I gonna go when I die? What is right and what is wrong and why? And that's the big thing that changed, right? Is the why. Before, I didn't need a why for anything, right? It's wrong because the prophet said so, right? Because the scriptures say so.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:17:42] Now it's like, I really need to think about it, right? From a personal perspective, from a community perspective, why is it right or why is it wrong for anything? So it gives a lot of freedom, but it comes with a lot of responsibility, too, because I can't just plug into the matrix and follow along. I need to work for it and teaching the kids those same skills, right? The kids feel free to ask more why they can't say, heavenly Father wants you to do this. No, you need to sit down. Hey, let's talk about sex for a minute, right? Is it good? Is it bad?

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:18:23] Is it too early, Is it too late? Or, you know, whatever. You know, what happens if you do, you know, protection, all those things. And we were talking to our kids recently, preparing to come here, and we asked them, right? What changed? And our daughters said, you guys are so much lighter to talk with now, right? There is no. They feel a lot more freedom to talk to us about things.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:18:49] Right. One time, our oldest daughter had a party in our house for New Year's Eve and a friend of hers, member of the church, brought alcohol. Right. And they were all minors. And then Sandra finds half the case in our daughter's closet. And then I didn't have to explode and oh, my God, what's going to happen? She's going to hell. It's a slippery slope. No, hey, look, alcohol needs to be dealt with responsibility that we had the conversation. Right. An adult conversation about it.

John Dehlin [03:19:27] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:19:28] Where her friend had. Not that for sure. And she had to hide from her. Her father. Her parents don't even know that it ever even happened. Right. And so, yeah, it's been a much more open relationship with the kids and we can talk about anything without, you know, it has to be this way now. Let's figure it out how it's going to be for us.

John Dehlin [03:19:53] Okay, so bullet answer. Healthier marriage now or before? Marcelo? No, healthier marriage now. Sandra.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:20:03] Oh, yeah. No.

John Dehlin [03:20:04] Okay. Better mental health now or when you're Mormon, Marcelo Now. Sandra?

Sandra Ribeiro [03:20:14] I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:20:15] Okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:20:16] This is a trick question. That's good because with this getting out of the church, you know, and all the findings and it's just send me mess. My, you know, my head.

John Dehlin [03:20:30] Yeah, yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:20:30] It's brought me. Yes. Brought me a lot of stress. I have to figure out for myself, you know, my ADHD doesn't have like helping like.

John Dehlin [03:20:40] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:20:41] Marcelo is more like, do you know, how can I say? Logical.

John Dehlin [03:20:46] Yeah, yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:20:47] And for me is a little. Take more time.

John Dehlin [03:20:50] Yeah, that's okay.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:20:51] And then. Yes. Mess. Mess. Mess up my. My. My head. Yeah, greatly.

John Dehlin [03:20:58] Oh, thanks for being honest. Better parents now or before or so.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:21:03] Definitely now. Like I said, more open, more willing to listen.

John Dehlin [03:21:07] Sandra.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:21:08] Yes, definitely now.

John Dehlin [03:21:10] Better friends now or before when you were Mormon? Marcelo?

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:21:15] More. I would say more authentic now, friends.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:21:19] Oh, yeah, yeah. More authentic for sure. Yeah, yeah. And then it's supportive because we have a great group of friends in Idaho Falls.

John Dehlin [03:21:31] A really fun memory I have is coming to Ammon and meeting your friend group. What a great friend group there. There's a lot of great post Mormon stuff going on in Idaho Falls.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:21:40] Yes.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:21:41] Yeah. And because of this work, I would say work we do with the channel, with the group, we have this, like, we create a new community.

John Dehlin [03:21:51] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:21:52] We lost one. We gained a bunch. Now only one community because we have like an ex Mormon community, you know, and you have the ex Brazilians and the one that has never been in the church. And they will come. They will come. If you walk away from the church, you can go anywhere you want and you'll find great people there.

John Dehlin [03:22:22] That's beautiful. Okay, so the name of the YouTube channel and the Facebook group, One last time Mormonismo San. Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:22:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:31] And how many followers subscribers do you think you have?

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:22:35] Getting close to 6,000.

John Dehlin [03:22:36] That's great.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:22:38] It's not huge. No, that's. That is a great group.

John Dehlin [03:22:41] That's great. And maybe it'll grow a little bit.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:22:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:43] From this. Yeah, we'll keep it up. Guys, I'm so honored to know you. I'm so grateful for all the work you're doing. You inspire me and I know you're helping a lot of people. So I'm just so thrilled you were willing to come and be on Mormon Stories. And I just wish you all the best and I hope we'll stay in touch and stay close.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:23:04] Yeah.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:23:05] Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity, John. And yeah, I hope someone out there gets helped by what we had to share here today.

John Dehlin [03:23:12] They will.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:23:12] Yeah. Thank you for. Thank you for having us. It was like really an honor for me that had you as my inspiration for the channel. You know the way that I said Marcelo to approach different because I knew you. I knew you approach. You made me listen, you know, because if Marcelo just bring the other channels that like Vanya in the beginning, she was not so harsh past chill compared with you. Super harsh. I. I did for a while. I watched one video of her and never watch her for months.

John Dehlin [03:23:53] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:23:53] But I was watching more my stories.

John Dehlin [03:23:55] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:23:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:23:57] I mean we. There's lots of approaches, but the more you can try to be kind and calm and not angry, I think people are more open.

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:24:06] Yeah.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:24:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:24:07] So.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:24:07] And thank you, John, for your work. Yeah. This do know is a work of love. Yeah, it is. Because now that you like in the other side, we can see people that is suffering the other side because some damage this side does.

John Dehlin [03:24:25] Yeah. Thank you. Thanks, Sandra.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:24:29] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [03:24:30] All right, thanks again, Marcelo And Sandra, it's so great to have you. You guys take care. And thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. You can always contact us@mormonstoriesmail.com we always appreciate everyone who donates to make this possible. Thank you. And of course, if you want to donate to support Mormon stories, you can do that@mormonstories.org Become a monthly donor. Can people donate to support you guys if they want to support what you're doing?

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:24:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:24:57] How do they do that?

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:24:58] For the longest time, I didn't want to ask for any of that because, I mean, it's just my volunteer work. But so many channels have come and gone because they don't have any kind of support, and then you lose interest.

John Dehlin [03:25:09] How do people do it?

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:25:11] You can donate through Vemo. So we can put the link on

John Dehlin [03:25:15] the description of the video, is it the same name?

Marcelo Ribeiro [03:25:18] I believe is the email mormonismo saint sensura.com? yeah.

John Dehlin [03:25:24] Perfect. Yeah. Support these guys. And that's how we keep our creators going. All right, thanks again, guys. Take care.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:25:31] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:25:32] We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Ciao. Is that how you say it in Brazil? Ciao. Bye, guys.

Sandra Ribeiro [03:25:41] Bye.

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