Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast, Joseph Smith Edition. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. It is August 6, 2025, and today we are on, I believe, if I'm Counting right, part 10 of our series on Joseph Smith. We call it the Joseph Smith Podcast. To kick off the Joseph Smith Podcast, as you know, we're featuring a brand new book by Professor John Turner called Joseph Smith the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet. We have covered nine chapters so far in this amazing book. We are now up to the 1931. Sorry, 1831, 1832 time frame. Today we're going to be talking about Independence, Missouri. We talked about Kirtland last time and we've talked about all the stuff before that I won't rehash. But I will say this podcast is best consumed in sequence. So if you're joining us for the first time, go back to part one and start. And there's a playlist on YouTube that you can listen to, or you can check out just the standard Mormon Stories podcast theme on Spotify, Apple podcast, or YouTube, but start at episode one. Join us on 10 when you're done. The only other thing I'll say is that we are super grateful for not just the regular donors to Mormon Stories Podcast that make this possible. We're also grateful to those who have donated specifically to support this series with John Turner. I'm happy to say we have received 145 donations as of this 10th episode. And somebody donated $1,000. A single person donated $1,000. We're super grateful for everyone who's donated. And I would call out the names of the people who donated, but I don't know. I don't have their consent, so I'm not going to mention any names. I will say we've raised almost 9, $500, which puts us, you know, I think if I'm counting right, it almost puts us through, like chapter 18. So there's 31 chapters in the book, plus the epilogue. So we're almost like, I don't know, half to two thirds funded. So if y' all keep donating, we'll be able to make it all the way through. I will say, just for fun, a few of you have written in. We've, we've covered this in past episodes where you've accused John Turner of being an apologist. I think why I want John Turner on is not because he's a critic or apologist, just because he calls balls and strikes as someone who's never been Mormon, but I will share one thing John Turner said. He said that those who just think I'm an unqualified apologist need to wait until the polygamy chapters of this book. So without any further ado with that teaser, John Turner, welcome back to Mormon Stories.

John Turner [00:02:56] Thanks. John Dehlin, great to be back with you.

John Dehlin [00:03:00] Was that. Was that a story I shouldn't have shared?

John Turner [00:03:02] No, that's. That's totally fine, except we're teasing something that. I don't know. We must still have at least a dozen chapters before we get to it. Although I believe in this chapter today we're going to.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] Yeah.

John Turner [00:03:17] Talk about a little bit about the timeline and context in which Joseph Smith might have started to contemplate polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:03:27] Absolutely. And that's a great. Also introduction segue to something else. So if. When y' all get to chapter 10 of the book, if you haven't read it yet, it's kind of a shortish chapter. It's literally like four or five pages. And so, you know, we're trying to do a couple hours per episode just because there's so much here. The LDS church, just in the past week or two, came out with three new essays. One of them is on the Book of Mormon translation, which is something we've covered in depth. Another is on Joseph Smith's character, which we've covered to some degree. And then the third, I think, is on Joseph Smith's polygamy. And I figured we would wait on the third, but if we get done early today, John Turner, I thought it'd be fun just to kind of pull some excerpts from these two new paragraphs, these two new essays, and just let you opine on them if time permits. How does that sound?

John Turner [00:04:27] That sounds great. I am happy to opine.

John Dehlin [00:04:30] Okay. And I should say also I really enjoyed your Sunstone presentation. It was fun to see again in Utah. And that was a great presentation.

John Turner [00:04:39] Thanks. I had a blast. Met a lot of. Met a lot of great people, which happens every time I come to come to Zion.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] Well, we are the Lord's chosen, so you're on. You're on the right path. Keep it up.

John Turner [00:04:55] You got it.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] Okay. All right. Well, chapter 10 is called the Land of Joseph, and it covers the time frame 1831, but mostly in Independence, Missouri. And why don't we start by just having you give whatever introduction you want?

Independence, Missouri as the New Jerusalem

John Turner [00:05:17] Yeah. I mean, I think one thing I'd say at the outset is if. If you're someone who's familiar with the history of the church, you're accustomed to the idea that Joseph Smith would. And his followers would leave Kirtland and travel to Jackson county episodically, I think it's really important to remind ourselves again that Joseph Smith's new directions are often wild and audacious. So as of the summer of 1831, he's 25 years old. It's been less than half a year since he showed up in Kirtland, Ohio. He's done an awful lot to, you know, organize and sort of calm down and structure the church there. And now in July, he is headed west, and he's going about a thousand miles to a sort of sparsely populated portion of western Missouri. He's intending to announce a particular spot in Jackson county as the site for. For the New Jerusalem. This is a pretty. This is a just a. Again, just a pretty crazy, harebrained idea. And I think Joseph Smith, you know, if we're not. If we're not, you know, quick on our feet, he's hard to keep up with, and he's prone to wear us out.

John Dehlin [00:07:06] Let me ask you. So obviously, as someone who was raised as a Latter Day Saint and was in the church for 45 years, you know, obviously the Mormon perspective is the reason why independence became a thing was because God told Joseph to, you know, establish Zion in the New Jerusalem. But let's just say that there's going to be a group of people listening to this podcast that are looking for a more secular explanation. Can you give us a biblical, slash, historical, slash, potentially secular explanation? You know, he was in New York. Like, clearly New York wasn't working out. He kept ending up in jail. You know, he made some enemies there. And of course, as we talked about, you know, all Sidney Rigdon's congregation got converted in Kirtland. Kirtland was a place for him to start over, plus the church. You know, at some point, he had more members in Kirtland than in New York or anywhere else. And so Kirtland makes a lot of sense to me. For somebody trying to figure out why, number one, why would he want to create the New Jerusalem? Why independence and, like, why would he want to dilute his attention? Given that Kirtland probably was enough evil, you know, enough stress or complexity, why would he even want to do something like independence? Give us some historical, secular perspective on how you think this happens.

John Turner [00:08:46] Sure. Well, I also say behind your question is the. Is the correct idea that doing this created a lot of difficulties? So by. By having independence and Kirtland as tandem centers of gathering, as two places where a house of The Lord would be built as two centers of this still fledgling, but now growing movement creates all sorts of logistical difficulties. It's not easy to organize two things that are a thousand miles apart from each other. In terms of the why, that's a great question. I think as of 1830, 1831, Joseph is still thinking about the conversion of large numbers of native people to the church. And Jackson county is. Is right next to what Americans at the time simply refer to as Indian territory. There are a couple of native peoples who have been pushed off of their lands further to the east that are there now. Joseph could have trained his sights on other parts of the American frontier. And the exact reason for why his focus settled on western Missouri and Jackson county, that's actually not. That's not clear to me. It certainly was a place where the church could both take a crack at evangelizing natives and acquire land very much on the cheap, and there was land available to be settled.

John Dehlin [00:10:50] So what I heard you say is cheap land and proximity to Native Americans. That even though he was, as we discussed last episode or two, even though he was kind of rebuffed or their missionaries were kind of kicked out of the front Indian frontier by the, what, the Bureau of Indian Management or whatever they. I. I'm assuming he didn't give up his hopes that they could, that the proximity to the Native Americans in Independence might prove useful down the road. Is that what I heard you say?

John Turner [00:11:21] No, that's true. And also, it's clear from some of Joseph's activities on his first trip to Jackson county that he himself has not given up on the idea of native conversions at this point. I think after that first trip, it becomes much, much less of a focus, but it's still close to the, you know, top of his priority list on that 1831 trip.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] Okay, let me ask you this, and this may be a useless question. Like, you know how, like, before Jesus came, Jews were waiting for a messiah, Right. And you know how, like, modern Christians are waiting for Jesus to come again. You know what I mean?

John Turner [00:12:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] Was there this idea of a new Jerusalem in the Zeitgeist? Were there other Was. Was. You know, we talked about Campbell. You know, were. Were Campbellite Christians or other Protestants all wondering, there's going to be a new Jerusalem, where will it be built? And so, in other words, Joseph sort of imports an existing understanding and. And then starts prophesying about it. Or was the idea of a new Jerusalem just totally made out of whole cloth from Joseph or some combination thereof?

John Turner [00:12:44] Yeah. Or do you Know, Question. Yeah. So if you go back to, I can't remember the precise individuals, it might have been an early Massachusetts minister named John Elliot. There you can find in the 17th century some American Protestants who think the New Jerusalem will be in North America. I think the dominant idea among Protestant Christians of the 19th century is that the New Jerusalem will be right where the Old Jerusalem is.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] Where did they get the expectation that there would be a New Jerusalem? Is that somewhere in the Bible?

John Turner [00:13:23] Yeah, no, that, that comes out of the Bible, I think out of the book of Revelation. Revelation, okay. So that idea in general has had a long resonance among Christians. And you know, historically, you can find other examples of the idea that New Jerusalem would be built in this, that or the other place by the early 1800s. As far as I know, other, you know, American Protestants, they're thinking of the New Jerusalem not in the Americas, but right where the first Jerusalem is. So Joseph, Joseph is unusual and he's not unique in thinking we can build the kingdom of God on earth. But the idea of building a physical New Jerusalem in a particular place, that's really distinctive.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] Okay. And so in other words, there, Jesus needed to come again to either the Old Jerusalem or a New Jerusalem. And so that was like a commonly held precursor to his second coming was the reestablishment of what, a Christian based Jerusalem somewhere. So.

John Turner [00:14:41] Well, I don't know. I'm. I going to fumble my way through biblical prophecies if we get too into the weeds on this, John.

John Dehlin [00:14:49] No, it's okay.

John Turner [00:14:50] I think, I think the reality is different Protestants read different passages of the Book of Revelation in different ways. Most. You can find examples of American Protestants like Charles Finney, who's probably the most prominent evangelist in the country at this time. He's not at all focused on, you know, building a particular place. He simply thinks that Christians, through reform and evangelism, they can usher in God's kingdom on the earth. It will be a millennial sort of reign for a thousand years and then Jesus will return. There are others who think, well, Jesus is going to come, it's going to be cataclysmic and Jesus will usher in a millennial reign on earth. I don't, I don't know that. I just don't. I don't think other American Christians are focused on building a city. That, that's unusual.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] Yeah. Okay. And then, and then the other thing is building a temple. So, so let's talk about. So I guess the book, the chapter starts with Joseph Smith setting off to independence from Kirtland with some colleagues. Let's talk about what their goals were, what they hope to achieve, and how that went.

John Turner [00:16:22] Yeah, so I think, you know, the first thing is Joseph is simply looking to check this place out. He has not, at this point, clarified by revelation that the site for the New Jerusalem will be Independence, Missouri. He sent missionaries there. They have sent back reports. His prior revelations have talked about a new Jerusalem among the Lamanites or something like that. But he wants to check out this place for himself. Once he's there. He does dictate a revelation specifying that, yes, this is indeed the site of the New Jerusalem. So that's. That's a goal. And then he wants to establish the gathering of church members to this place. So he's bringing some key associates like Sidney Gilbert, Gilbert Edward Partridge, Oliver Cowdery. He essentially thinks that Gilbert and Partridge are going to oversee the acquisition, the purchase of land and its distribution. So he's looking to, you know, leave people in place who can oversee gathering to independence and other parts of Jackson County.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] And you've already kind of alluded to this, but that's so ambitious. He's barely. He kind of had to abandon a church back in New York. He's barely got this church alive in Kirtland. And he's already, like. He's already starting to prophesy of a potential second coming. He's thinking about establishing a new Jerusalem. And. And as we're about to talk about laying the cornerstone of a temple that's going to be built like, that's. I guess if you're a visionary, if you're a prophet, you dream big. And Joseph, you gotta give him credit for dreaming big, you know?

John Turner [00:18:26] Yeah, no, I mean, I say this is a typically bold plan for Joseph Smith. He's only been in Kirtland for about four months, maybe five months. It wasn't easy to show up there, sort of take the reins. He just had this sort of powerful and significant conference in June of 1831 in Kirtland where there's the ordination of people into the high priesthood, and then, you know, here's. Here's a new direction. And he's been hinting at it, but it's another thing to. To set it in motion. And it's another pretty. It is another bold gambit. It's something that could easily fall flat for any number of reasons.

John Dehlin [00:19:11] Yeah. Okay. So where does this idea of a temple and yet another temple come from? I don't even know that we talked much about the Kirtland temple yet, but like, obviously, there's temples in the Old Testament. Jesus visited the temple in the New Testament. But Christianity doesn't really develop other than, I think, in Mormonism, a real temple tradition. Like, you know, Jews still have temples in 2025, but I can't even name a Christian sect that even has a temple. So what is Joseph doing interjecting temples into Christianity? Any idea?

The Origins of the Temple Concept

John Turner [00:19:51] Yeah. So great and complex question, because I think, first of all, again, if we. If we have grown, if you've grown up with this story, if you're. Or if you're very familiar with it, one would think that when Joseph talks about building a temple, he has in mind at least what transpires in Kirtland, if not in Nauvoo. I think Joseph doesn't. Doesn't have that worked out in his mind. Yet Joseph does again and again find things in the Bible to restore, not necessarily exactly how they appear in the Bible, but often in new and creative ways. So priesthood's a great example. A temple is another example. Later on, baptism for the dead is an example. So Joseph's interest in a temple flows out of his engagement with the Bible. I don't think at this point he has in mind a temple for the restoration of particular ordinances or the introduction of particular ordinances. When he begins to flesh out his understanding of what temples are for over the next year or two, at first he thinks. I think he thinks of them as places for instruction, preaching, education, and he doesn't necessarily. You know, we might talk about this in a later chapter, but when. When he and his associates sort of lay out what they expect the City of Zion to look like, they envision a series of temples, houses of worship and instruction.

John Dehlin [00:21:50] So it's a different. It's a bit of a different vision than how it's all formed out to today. Remind me, there was a restorationist movement that preceded Joseph Smith. And weren't Campbell and Rigdon parts of the restorationist movement? And is it just sort of like, if it's in the Bible, we got to bring it back kind of thing?

John Turner [00:22:11] Yeah. Well, I think one distinction I'd make is the Campbellites, like a lot of other Christian restorationists, what they want to get back to usually is the primitive New Testament Church. So a lot of Christians look both at this time period and at other times, have read, say, the Book of Acts, and they've read about the way that the earliest Christians lived and worshiped and acted, and they've thought, well, why don't our churches act like that? And they've you know, they've wanted to restore essentially New Testament Christianity. Joseph and, you know, he's. He's not the only reformer or restoration restorationist in history that thought more broadly. But Joseph wants to restore all things. He doesn't confine himself to restoring New Testament practices. He's interested in, like I said, concepts such as the temple and priesthood, which are at least more associated with the Old Testament. So that definitely sets him apart from the Campbellites, who are not interested in temples.

John Dehlin [00:23:36] Okay. Yeah. So that's that idea of not just restoring New Testament stuff, but Old Testament stuff too. It seems like that might be semi original on Joseph Smith's part.

John Turner [00:23:52] Yeah, I mean, it's at least semi original. Like I said. I think you could. If you, if you stretch back further in history, you can, you can certainly find other Christian reformers who have taken inspiration from the Old. The Old Testament and its descriptions of priesthood, for instance. But, yeah, Joseph, as is perhaps not surprising given how much we've talked about his. His boldness and audacity and creativity, he tends to go farther than other people go.

John Dehlin [00:24:24] Yeah, yeah. And that gets him into trouble, but it's also kind of what makes him so compelling or interesting. Okay, so you mentioned that Missouri recently joins the Union as a slave state. I think you mentioned that there are around 200 slaves in all of Missouri, is that right?

John Turner [00:24:47] No, just in Jackson County.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] Oh, just in Jackson County. Okay.

John Turner [00:24:50] Yeah. This, this is, this is also a sort of part of Missouri that doesn't have a ton of white settlement. There may be 3,000 or so white American settlers in Missouri, and about 200 of those are enslaved. So a high percentage of white settlers were from other slaveholding parts of the country. So that's a, you know, that's a part of the social mix that is significant when it comes to Mormon settlement in the next couple of years.

John Dehlin [00:25:34] And so, you know, Mormons start descending on Missouri and, you know, your book starts to touch on this idea of Missourians not loving Mormons as they gather. And what do you, you know, typically critics, you know, sort of say the Mormons were. Were unpleasant and bad neighbors. And then the church tends to have the narrative that Missouri was evil and they were just persecuting the righteous. What do we want to say about that in, you know, in the 1831 time period about who's to blame, you know.

John Turner [00:26:11] Yeah, so that's a. It's a great question. Well, at first it's just a handful of Mormons, so I think at first it wasn't an Incredibly big deal. I do think the fact that most of the Mormon newcomers are from places like New York, Ohio, Vermont, they're Yankees. And so, you know, there's, you know, slavery aside, there's some cultural differences. I think, you know, a lot of those comments that, you know, William W. Phelps, I. I quote him to the effect that they, you know, they. Other Missourians, they hate Yankees worse than snakes, which is pretty bad. I think the animosity really builds as more and more church members come. And some of that animosity relates to the fact that Joseph. Joseph's revelations essentially predict that Jackson county is the inheritance for the Saints, as they begin to call themselves. And so the reasons for the conflict, I think they're just not complex. They're, you know, you can find examples of, you know, religious bigotry and derision. You can find some choice words back and forth on the subject of slavery. But certainly as a year or two passes, the main reason for the animosity is that non Mormon Missourians can foresee that they're going to become a minority in the county and they don't want to be ruled or possibly even kicked out by the Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:27:59] Yeah, I have it in my notes to ask, and I think we've already kind of covered this, but I have it in my notes to ask why. Why Joseph didn't just make Kirtland the New Jerusalem. Why did he need. Why did he need to make it a totally different.

John Turner [00:28:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:20] City. But we've kind of answered that. But I just.

John Turner [00:28:23] Yeah, I'll just. I'll just jump in and say that by the time Joseph moves to Kirtland and he shows up there In February of 1831, that would have required a significant break or revocation of earlier revelations. He's, you know, he's been dictating revelations in the fall of 1830 that the new Jerusalem is going to be among the Lamanites. And so then to, you know, if he had turned around and said, no, it's going to be Kirtland, I think that would have been, you know, that would have been tough. Not that Joseph was totally opposed to, you know, shifting directions, but he's sort of pretty firmly on record that it's going to be out west.

John Dehlin [00:29:08] Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so is there anything worth mentioning about the temple lot in terms of who he's instructing to buy it, why he needs a temple lot? You mentioned that it wasn't just going to be, you know, a place for one temple, but for many, but also for the Saints to Live around. Is the temple lot worth mentioning at this point in the narrative?

John Turner [00:29:33] Well, you know, it certainly is because it becomes so significant later on and a point of contention among different movements. One thing that, you know, strikes me when reading through the minutes and other documents about Joseph's. Joseph's first trip to independence is, number one. This is a really quick trip. He's sort of in and out in just. Just a couple of weeks. I think he's there for less than a month. There's another attempt at preaching to the natives. There's some organization of who's going to be in charge of what going forward. And then, you know, a little bit less than a week before he leaves, there's the dedication of a temple site. Church doesn't own it at the time. Edward Partridge purchases it a few months later, and Joseph places a stone at what's going to become the intended temples, one of its corners. And this happens really quickly. There's a small number, you know, still a small number of people there. I think there's a church conference about that time with 45 people in attendance, a few local converts, and I think maybe around the dozen or 20 people that attend Joseph had brought with him. So this is something that goes by quickly, I imagine. Not everybody necessarily knows what. What to make of it at the time. I don't know that we know that. We don't even know exactly what Joseph himself has in mind. But it's a quick trip. Joseph doesn't stay to preside over the beginning of construction or even the. The purchase of the land.

John Dehlin [00:31:38] Okay, so for now, we'll just hold the temple lot as kind of a TBD in the timeline.

John Turner [00:31:46] Yeah, it's a tbd.

John Dehlin [00:31:48] We've talked about the mission to the Lamanites failing. I think we covered that previously. The next thing your book talks about is Ezra Booth becoming a dissenter. Do you want to talk about that?

Booth's Disillusionment and Joseph's Leadership Style

John Turner [00:32:01] Yeah. So there's, you know, there are. I don't think Booth is the only one, but the people who accompany Joseph on this trip, they are expecting something fabulous. There has been the expectation that there will be a harvest of converts in Jackson county, maybe among the native peoples who are nearby, maybe among white settlers, according to Booth, who. I'll just back up and say. Booth had been a Methodist minister over the. Maybe about half a year before this. He converted, joined the Church of Christ, became a Mormon, and then accompanies Joseph on this trip to Independence. According to Booth's recollection, Joseph had reported a vision that Oliver Cowdery had Raised up a large church in Missouri. Now, Cowdery had written back with some promising early reports. I don't know exactly what Joseph expected when he showed up or what he had predicted, but Booth is disappointed when he gets there. There's a handful of converts. There's no sign that there's been this great, great harvest. And I think also, and I can't remember whether Booth comments on this, Edward Partridge certainly does. This place doesn't look that hospitable. You know, Independence is sort of this ragtag settlement. Maybe there's a dozen or two dozen houses. There aren't a lot of people. A lot. There aren't a lot of white people to even try to convert in Jackson County. And it looks. This looks hard. This looks like a hard task. This is not going to be an easy place to build New Jerusalem. And so Booth, he's disillusioned. And then he gets more disillusioned on the trip home.

John Dehlin [00:34:22] And does it, does his disillusionment end up mattering much?

John Turner [00:34:28] Well, it does matter. I mean, number one, he, he essentially leaves the church and is sort of the church council silences him. I'm not quite sure. He was probably on his way out. But once he gets back to Kirtland, he writes a series of letters, letters very critical of Joseph Smith, that are published in a local newspaper. They are subsequently published in Eber D. Howes, Mormonism Unveiled. So a lot of people end up reading Booth's criticism.

John Dehlin [00:35:11] And if you were to sort of summarize and grade the validity of his disillusionment, obviously, when you're raised lds, every critic is, is a weak, feeble, anti Mormon, bitter malcontent who isn't. Is faithless. Right. Is you're looking at him with a more open minded, empathetic eye. Is there some credibility to his disillusionment or is he just a bad apple or something in the middle?

John Turner [00:35:45] I, I think that's a great question. So Booth makes a lot of. He makes a lot of criticisms. These are pretty long letters. I don't remember all of the contents. But he thinks that Joseph's revelations are pretended and manipulative. He's. He, I think he denounces Joseph as an infidel. He also criticizes Joseph for essentially asking some of his associates and followers to rough it while he makes it easier on himself. And Booth also basically says Joseph just doesn't act the way a proper religious leader should act. He doesn't act the way, say, a respectable Methodist minister would act. You know, he's he's sort of frivolous and, you know, likes to jest and joke and things like that. So are these, you know, are these valid criticisms? I mean, I think the thing that is tricky in terms of parsing, that is other people went with Joseph to Missouri, experienced the same things, and, you know, didn't come away with the same sort of negative impression, having been equally intimate with Joseph. So some of. Some of Booth's criticisms and descriptions are definitely accurate. So the way he describes Joseph's personality as, you know, lacking sort of respectable decorum, definitely true. And, you know, that something that attracted a lot of people to Joseph Smith in terms of the revelations being convenient or manipulative, I don't think that's an invalid criticism. I mean, I think Joseph, during 1831 issues, I think that's the year in which he issues the single or dictates the single largest number of revelations, maybe 35 or 40 that we know of. And there are probably a lot more. And sometimes. Sometimes those revelations shift, you know, shift policies and decisions from almost one day to the next. I can understand why Booth found these to be pretended revelations rather than messages from the Lord. Obviously, some of Joseph's followers, who are more stalwart in their faith that, you know, they. They didn't think those criticisms were justified, that I can understand why he made them.

John Dehlin [00:38:41] Yeah, if I'm trying to be objective, on the one hand, I. I do think Joseph was an untraditional leader, often less formal than people expected out of their leaders. And I also think he was kind of always flying by the seat of his pants, and that would lead to frustration. And I do think, especially in those early years, he was famous for making revelations or prophecies that did or didn't come true. And so people would have cause to feel frustrated if I'm on the other side. I don't think he can do anything as a leader without having. Without burning bridges and having disillusioned, you know, members of your team at some point or another. So it kind of just comes to the territory of leadership, in my opinion.

John Turner [00:39:30] It's partly that. I think also, you know, Joseph's, I guess, style or method of prophetic leadership does, you know, change over the course of, you know, of his life. He doesn't always lead in the same way. And this year, as I said, he's leading through this flurry of revelations, many of which deal with pretty mundane matters. You know, he'll. He'll dictate a short little revelation that these three individuals should go to independence or he'll dictate a revelation that, you know, as they travel back home to Kirtland, so. And so should, you know, this pair of men should stop and preach along the way. These two should go quickly home. It really get. They really get into the nitty gritty. I think after a few years, Joseph. Joseph's revelations become much more infrequent. It's. It's almost cumbersome to lead a church the way he's doing it in 1831. They'll, you know, they'll be traveling home, the canoe will capsize. They don't know what to do next. And Joseph will dictate a really long revelation, making a new plan. And it must have taken an hour or two to. To dictate. It would be, you know, it's simpler simply to talk with everyone and say, well, I, you know, I'm. I'm sensing that God thinks we should do X know, rather than dictate a long revelation on the subject. And I can imagine that for somebody like Booth, who sees, you know, some things not going the way he expected or maybe the way that Joseph had predicted, having all. All of these detailed revelations on these matters, it's obvious grist for criticism.

John Dehlin [00:41:35] Yeah. Well, the only thing I'll say with the benefit of hindsight to Ezra Booth is if you want to criticize Joseph, get in line.

John Turner [00:41:44] That's true. That's true. Joseph never has a shortage of critics.

John Dehlin [00:41:50] So this is a theme that's going to reoccur. We talked about it at ad nauseam with Martin Harris. But this theme again of Joseph asking a lot of people and then people really taking it in the shorts, making huge sacrifices. We talked about that with Martin Harris. Looks like it's Partridge's turn to do some suffering, to get rebuked. And do you want to talk about that at all?

John Turner [00:42:16] Yeah. So it seems that Ezra Partridge, who Joseph has, by revelation, appointed as the church's bishop. Bishop, and has asked him. Asked him to, you know, divest himself of some of his property and business in Ohio. Partridge is going to be tasked with allocating property properties for church members who move to Jackson County. Now, Partridge, he doesn't seem to realize that he's going to be there for a long time. So, you know, Joseph's only there for a few weeks and then heads back to Kirtland. Bishop Partridge apparently expected to be back with his wife and children in Ohio by the end of the summer as well. But Joseph instructs him, I think, by revelation that he's going to stay in Missouri. Partridge has. He has all sorts of complaints. He finds, you know, he finds the situation in Jackson county inhospitable. He expects that it's going to be full of suffering and privation. He doesn't think Joseph's good or talented at selecting property to purchase. He seems. Yeah, he seems to think that some of Joseph's prophecies about Missouri have proven false. I think when it comes down to it, though, he is simply put out that he's being asked to sacrifice a great deal and be separated from his family. Joseph chastises Partridge by revelation for un. Unbelief and blindness of heart. And their relationship is strained for quite some time. They're at odds. And I think Joseph. I think he responds harshly to Partridge because he sees Partridge as a viable associate. And for Partridge to question elements of his leadership in is. Is serious. I think that's why Joseph's response is so pointed.

John Dehlin [00:44:49] Yeah. Yep. It's a rough time. And Partridge did. I mean, he just basically gets up and leaves and goes to Independence and is kind of left out on his own. And this is a. A precursor to the ongoing tension Joseph's going to have of navigating the. The feelings of his. Now his Kirtland saints with them, with the independent saints feeling somewhat neglected and as kind of redheaded stepchildren as, you know, again, being deprioritized or, you know, less important. Right.

John Turner [00:45:25] Well, and a part of the problem also is because, you know, Joseph and Edward Partridge, they're. They're at odds. But Joseph heads back to Kirtland. Partridge remains in Missouri. Probably they would have found a way to work out their differences had they been in the same place. But. And this is another recurrent theme for the next several years, distance doesn't usually make these hearts grow fonder. You know, it. It allows for sort of simmering discontent to persist. And so Joseph. I don't think he settles things with Partridge. I think he settles things with Partridge when he makes a second trip to Independence the next year. But the problem lingers for some time simply because they're separated by so much distance.

John Dehlin [00:46:20] Yeah. All right. Well, let's go next to a question I asked, I believe last episode, the question of polygamy and the, you know, Native American women. And then I've got some questions about that, but why don't you give us some background there?

Missionaries and Proposed Alliances with Native Women

John Turner [00:46:40] Okay. So this is. This is a kind of a murky episode, but I think it's really important, and I think it's a point of controversy. And one that I've thought about a little bit. So I'm excited to talk about it. Joseph does make an attempt to revive the Lamanite mission once he shows up in Independence. And this is just a very short, you could call it a sort of a Sunday preaching incursion. And I think Joseph touches on it briefly in his history. And then William W. Phelps, who's a former newspaper editor who's recently joined the church, he writes about it several decades later in a statement that he prepares for Brigham Young. So apparently Joseph and a group of, I think six other men, they gather on a Sunday and they are thinking about, you know, what are we going to do? Who should preach to the Indians. And Joseph withdraws by himself to pray and then returns and at least according to Phelps, he dictates or, or, you know, speaks out. A revelation. And, you know, this is pretty mundane. Phelps is going to be the lead preacher cadre. Cautery will open the meeting and a few other people have, have smaller roles. And apparently they went over the border and Phelps preached to a group of, a mixed group of white settlers, Natives and African Americans. I don't think there is any great harvest of converts. Apparently that same revelation also suggested a creative way to circumvent the, the government's restrictions on missionary work. If you recall, when Kady and the other original missionaries to the Lamanites went into Indian territory to preach, they got into trouble with the US Indian agent who basically told them they couldn't preach without a permit and they needed to clear out, which they did. So Joseph's thinking, well, how can we, how can we minister to or preach to the natives despite that restriction? Well, one way might be to trade with the natives. That might be a good way to get opportunities to share the gospel. But Joseph apparently has another idea, and this is attested to both in Phelps's recollection and in one of Ezra Booth's letters. And that idea is that the elders could marry native women.

John Dehlin [00:50:13] And

John Turner [00:50:15] Phelps several decades later writes out, well, writes out Joseph's revelation on this subject for Brigham Young. I'm just gonna, gonna pause for a minute, see if you have, have questions or, you know, where, where you want to go with that, John?

John Dehlin [00:50:37] No, no, I mean, well, this is great so far. I want to let you, I guess I want to let you finish that narrative and then I'll, I'll ask a couple follow up questions and maybe introduce one of the three essays that we teased at the beginning of the show.

John Turner [00:50:52] Sure. So, yeah, I'll just, I'll continue A little bit on this. So, according to Booth, Joseph in particular thought that Martin Harris would be a good prospect for a marriage to a Native woman. If you recall, he's been at odds with his wife, Lucy Harris, for quite some time. So, I mean, he's sort of available. I don't think the. I don't think the suggestion really goes anywhere.

John Dehlin [00:51:26] He's available in two ways. He's available in the. Joseph kind of wants him out of his hair, it would seem, in Kirtland. But he's probably. He doesn't have a partner because he and his wife, what, got divorced or were estranged.

John Turner [00:51:40] I think they're just separated.

John Dehlin [00:51:42] Yeah.

John Turner [00:51:42] But, you know, this. This may have been an. An offhand, you know, comment from Joseph that there should be this matrimonial alliance. I will say Joseph Smith is not the only one who has thought about that as a means to assimilate, Christianize, or sort of even whiten native peoples. I think Thomas Jefferson thought that native white intermarriage might. Might be a good path for Indian assimilation. Where this gets, I think, quite interesting is in Phelps's later recollection. Now, I think what's really tricky about this is, according to Phelps's recollection, when Joseph has this revelation, nobody has pen, ink or paper to write it down. Now, I think that seems a little strange because in just July and August of 1831, there are probably a dozen revelations of Joseph Smith that were written down and recorded for posterity. According to Phelps, Joseph suggested that the Lord could preserve his words until the time was appointed. Phelps, in this statement to Brigham Young, includes a revelation. It starts, verily, verily, saith the Lord, your Redeemer, even Jesus Christ. What we don't know is, did Phelps write this down a couple of days later, a few months later, or did he sort of recapitulate it in 1861? Regardless, this revelation, it includes some details that sort of track with the other accounts of this episode. That Phelps should preach the sermon, Oliver Cowdery should open the meeting. But then also it says, Jesus says, for it is my will that in time ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and just. And then Phelps writes a bit of a postscript in this statement to Brigham Young. Remember, this is 1861. Phelps recalls, about three years after this was given, I asked brother Joseph privately how we that were mentioned in the revelation could take wives from the natives, as we were all married men. He replied instantly in the Same manner that Abraham took Hagar and Keturah and Jacob took Rachel, Bilhah and Zilpah by Revelation. The saints of the Lord are always directed by Revelation. So, you know, basically what we have is this suggestion of a matrimonial alliance between Mormon men and Native women. And then Phelps suggesting that at some later time, Joseph suggested that these marriages would be plural marriages, polygamous marriages.

Native Americans in the Book of Mormon and the Polygamy Essay

John Dehlin [00:55:33] Okay. All right, so I'm ready to ask a couple questions. So. So first of all, I just, I did a search for the first instance in a Mormon context of this idea of Native Americans becoming white and delightsome, you know, when that was first introduced. And I've got it in second Nephi, chapter 30, verse 6 in the 1830 version of the Book of Mormon. So Joseph's already thinking dark red skin will be turned white, you know, in 1829. So we don't. I guess we wouldn't know whether he means by intermarriage in 1829. That would probably be speculation, right?

John Turner [00:56:17] I think so. And, you know, my recollection of reading that passage in the Book of Mormon really sounds like it's going to be through conversion or simply the return of natives to the faith of their ancestors. That is going to widen them. I don't think there's any suggestion that this is through intermarriage.

John Dehlin [00:56:40] Okay. All right. So the next thing, the next thing I'll maybe do is introduce one of the three essays that we kind of teased. It's the Plural Marriage essay. So In July of 2025, July 31, the LDS Church News has an article, Church adds three new pages to Gospel Topics and Questions. You know, the Gospel topics essays as we refer to them. One's a Book of Mormon translation, one's Joseph Smith's character, and one's plural marriage. So let's go ahead and talk quickly about plural. A couple things about plural marriage. We won't get into it too deep. One, I have to ask you just because for those of you who don't know John Turner's cv, he previously wrote a biography on Brigham Young, and we had him on Mormon Stories a long time ago to talk about it. But with the advent of sort of what some like to call Joseph Smith polygamy deniers, we had Michelle Stone on recently. I can't not ask this question, since I've got you on. We're talking about the essay, this new polygamy essay that came out. And by the way, the church had at least three polygamy essays already. Have you spent any Time wondering why they needed to come out with. By my count is a fourth. It may be a third. It's at least a third, if not a fourth. Do you have any idea why they wanted to come out with a third or fourth when they are, had already come out with two or three?

John Turner [00:58:12] Well, I mean, if I had to speculate, it is because for reasons that honestly, to me, as an outsider, seem unexpected, there is this sort of growing number of church members who assert that Joseph didn't practice polygamy. So apparently all of the questions in this area aren't settled for many church members.

John Dehlin [00:58:40] Okay, so in your mind, this is potentially literally in part a response to the Joseph Smith polygamy deniers?

John Turner [00:58:52] I think, you know, I, I, I think so. I think they're in one of the questions in the new material. It does seem to address that fairly directly.

John Dehlin [00:59:04] Yeah, yeah. So it does. In it, you know, early in the essay, it's kind of Q and A format and it literally says, did Joseph Smith practice plural marriage or was it introduced by Brigham Young or others? That seems pretty clear. And I'll read you what it writes, what it has. Joseph Smith introduced the practice, not Brigham Young. Credible contemporary sources document Joseph's practice of plural marriage. Later, many faithful men and women who knew of Joseph's practice of plural marriage gave sworn testimony of it. Rather than deny this historical practice, we can apply the principles outlined in seeking answers to Questions to help us better understand it. So John Turner, as now a published author on Brigham Young and Joseph Smith, balls and strikes. What do you, what do you say here on this, this answer?

John Turner [00:59:58] I mean, I do think the, the evidence is pretty, it's very overwhelming that Joseph practiced plural marriage. I actually do think it is interesting, you know, the earlier topics, gospel topics, essays on the subject, they seem more designed to assuage the concerns of church members who may have heard things that troubled them about Joseph marrying large numbers of women or marrying very young women or marrying women who are already married. But I do think this is a bit of a new wrinkle that in a way brings us back to the late 1800s when the church was documenting Joseph's polygamy in response to the reorganized church. There's, there's now, you know, like you can sort of sense the, the church needs to respond to a wide array of concerns and questions about Joseph's polygamy.

Joseph Smith's Early Practice and Concealment of Polygamy

John Dehlin [01:01:04] Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll, I'll now introduce a question that I probably have introduced previously. But this is definitely the chapter to talk about it really directly as I think about problems with trying to decide if Joseph Smith's polygamy was from God or not. There are a couple really big problems. One is that, you know, most, most people that track Joseph Smith's polygamy are going to list Fanny Auger as the first wife, which, let's just put the date of that around 1834, 1835. One of the problems with that as Joseph Smith's first polygamous wife is that it was very much seen as an affair at the time it happened, according to Oliver Cowdery. So, and I'm just putting these forward as my understandings, then I'm going to invite you, John Turner, to respond. So, you know, how can Fanny Augur be a first, a second wife to Joseph Smith if everybody else considered it to be an affair? Secondly, the sealing powers are received later in the timeline. So Joseph Smith didn't even have the powers to seal around the time of Fanny Auger. And then third, the, the, the polygamy revelation that we all know is DNC132 doesn't come until 1842, 1843. So for all those reasons, like, you know, some would like to say, no, no, no, that's enough. That's enough information to say Joseph Smith's polygamy started as a illicit affairs and then he receives the revelation late, almost as a way to do damage control and to justify retroactively a bunch of relationships that really look a lot more like serial adultery or serial affairs. And then what the Mormon Church does, what apologists do, is they say, no, no, no, no, no, you don't understand. There's good evidence that Joseph Smith, you know, received at least a polygamy revelation in the 1830s and as early as 1831. That's what has been written previously. And then what I'll go ahead and read now is a new, you know, phrasing of this argument in this new polygamy essay that just got released. I'll just read it under the question of what is known about the beginning of plural marriage in the Church. What the Church published in July of, you know, late July of 2025 is this text. Some evidence suggests that the prophet Joseph Smith first received a revelation in the early 1830s regarding plural marriage, the revelation. So it's implying that the eight early 1830s revelation, because it follows that sentence with these, with the words, the revelation, again implying that it's the early 1830s revelation that was received. The revelation written down in 1843 states that Joseph prayed to know why God justified some Biblical figures in having many wives. The Lord responded to that. The Lord responded that he had commanded them to do so. And then if I look at the footnote, it's got a footnote number 12, which it then, then takes us to D and C, 132, verse one, and then 34 through 38. And already I'm, I'm calling foul on at least a couple things. It's ambiguously citing an early 1830s revelation without telling us what it's referring to. And then it's basically saying whatever that unspecific early 1830s revelation is that was received. And it's implied that then that was what was written down in 1843. Again, I'm Colin Foul. That doesn't make sense to me, John Turner. But you're the expert, so am I missing something? Am I getting something wrong? Am I. Is that an uncharitable reading? You know, and you know, the only other thing I'll say is that it goes on to say the Lord also commanded Joseph Smith to practice plural marriage. Evidence suggests he married a second wife, Fanny Augur, in Kirtland, Ohio, in the mid-1830s after he had obtained her consent and that of her parents. We're going to cover Fanny Augur later because that hasn't come up in your book yet. So we don't want to give too much of the spoilers, but let's hit this head on because I think all of this is trying to tie back to the 1831 Missouri stuff without really getting too specific on the Church's part. Now tell me if I've got it wrong or right. John Turner.

John Turner [01:06:08] I am with you on this one, John De Lynn. So first of all, I just want to say whenever Joseph got a revelation or even inkling about polygamy, whether that's 1831, 1841, 1835, in my opinion, none of that justifies the reckless and hurtful way ways that Joseph pursued polygamy. So I just sort of want to get that on, on the table. It's not as if, if we stumble upon evidence that Joseph received a revelation on this subject in 1831, then therefore everything's okay. I don't think the, I don't think the timeline is the most significant part of this story. However, I think the evidence for an early 1830s pre Fanny Alger revelation is pretty slim. So I'm aware of a couple of pieces of possible evidence. Maybe there's more out there somewhere that I'm not thinking of. One of them is a recollection From Joseph Bates Noble, who was an associate. He was close to Joseph in Nauvoo. I forget when they became acquainted, he was present at Joseph's ceiling. To Louisa Beaman in 1841. His recollection, and I'm going into the weeds with some of these dates because I think the details matter to some extent in terms of assessing this evidence. His recollection from 1883 is that Joseph received a revelation on plural marriage while working on his translation of the Old Testament scriptures. So that would date it basically to perhaps early 1831, then. And I'll. I'll come back and say something about that in a minute. And then we've got this information from William W. Phelps, which is dated to 1861. Again, it's possible that Phelps wrote down the revelation earlier, but we don't really know. So taking these in turn, I don't put too much stock in Noble's recollection. We don't have. I don't think we have good corroboration for that. I think it's definitely possible that Joseph, who spent a lot of time with biblical texts, I think it's entirely conceivable that when he read about Abraham or Solomon or Isaac or Moses, he probably wondered, you know, how is it that they had multiple wives? I think a lot of. A lot of Christians living in monogamous societies, they've had that question. I don't see why Joseph couldn't have had that question. I don't think that's really strong evidence for Joseph dictating or possessing a revelation on the subject in 1831. Secondly, the material from William W. Phelps. I think we have to remember this is 1861. This is just when the reorganization is getting off the ground. This is. We're just getting into an era in which the LDS Church has strong incentive to document Joseph's practice of polygamy and his revelation on the subject. I think this isn't a whole lot to go on. Joseph certainly doesn't share in 1831 that he has a revelation on plural marriage with anyone. Had Joseph hinted along those lines, as I say in the book, Ezra Booth would have run with that in his public criticisms of Joseph. So we're basically relying on Phelps a few years later, asking Joseph what he had in mind. And Phelps says that Joseph was quick to say, basically, you all can do what Abraham and Isaac did. You know? Phelps says a few years later, this is not very precise evidence. It's late. It's in a very different context. I personally don't Put too much stock in it. And I know you warned me against spoilers, but I'll just say I'm not convinced that Fanny Alger is an early plural wife. I don't think these things coalesce in Joseph's mind until the early 1840s.

Interpreting the Historical Evidence on Early Polygamy

John Dehlin [01:11:30] Okay, so I'm looking at your book on page 105, and I'm a little confused. So help me out. I. I think I'm reading it wrong, because on the. The last paragraph, there's a sentence that says, according to both Ezra Booth and William Phelps, the prophet announced that the elders should marry native women. But then towards the end, you write. Of that same paragraph, you write, had Joseph even hinted at polygamy, Booth would have divulged it after his break from the church. So, okay, so what you're saying is that both Booth and Phelps said that the missionaries should marry native women, but what you're saying is that it wasn't like, polygamy or, you know, it wasn't framed as divine polygamy. I'm trying to understand. Booth knew but didn't complain about plural wives. Why didn't he complain? And what did he. What aren't you saying about what Booth knew and. Or did or didn't have concerns about? Sorry if that's confusing.

John Turner [01:12:38] No, no. Maybe I wasn't crystal clear in the paragraph. So I think when I'm saying that the prophet announced that the elder should marry native women, he's simply saying, you know, Mormon men.

John Dehlin [01:12:52] Oh, marry them. Not as plural wives.

John Turner [01:12:55] Right. Mormon men could marry native women and that.

John Dehlin [01:12:59] So the single Mormon men who were

John Turner [01:13:02] missionaries, or maybe Martin Harris, who's separated from his wife. I don't think I. I don't think.

John Dehlin [01:13:10] Got it.

John Turner [01:13:11] I kind of forget who else in the group is married. I guess William Phelps. I don't think he's saying, william Phelps, you should go find yourself a native woman for a second wife. I don't think there's any hint of that, or else Booth would definitely have publicized that as an utterly scandalous suggestion.

John Dehlin [01:13:33] So marrying them isn't scandalous, but marrying them when already married would have been scandalous?

John Turner [01:13:40] Marrying. Yeah, Single Mormon men marrying native women wouldn't have been super scandalous. It would have been scandalous, depending on who you talk to. But it wouldn't. Wouldn't have been. Certainly wouldn't have been as scandalous as married Mormon men marrying native women.

John Dehlin [01:14:00] Okay, so I'm not. I don't have the actual. I guess it's Phelps recollection in front of me. I'm trying to Google it really quick, but it doesn't mention married men or polygamy. It just says you can marry the Lamanite women or something to that effect. Is that right?

John Turner [01:14:21] Correct. Well, you know, in my diligent preparation for our conversation, I. I did print it out today. Okay, let's see. I. I think I read it once. It's just simply, it is my will that in time ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white delightsome and just for even now, their females are more virtuous than the Gentiles. So if that is something from the early 1830s, I think it simply refers to a general idea of marriages between white, white Mormon men and native women, by the way, not Mormon women and native men. That's just not contemplated. It's. And then. And then Phelps sort of tags on to this statement, sort of after the words of the revelation itself. You know, this later discussion with Joseph that suggests this could include polygamy.

John Dehlin [01:15:26] Okay, now, I will just.

John Turner [01:15:28] I will just say, you know, I. I don't put. I. I don't think we have enough information to think that Phelps has preserved Joseph's words from 1831. It's possible he may have, but I think we don't know.

John Dehlin [01:15:47] Okay. And just not devil's advocate, but I'm just trying to think this through. If we probably could figure out a number of people that were called as missionaries to the Lamanites, you know, and we could then do an audit of how many of them were single or separated versus married, and I guess one could make the argument that if at least 50% or more of them were married, then the polygamy could be implied because he's giving the revelation saying you could marry them, and most of them were already married.

John Turner [01:16:26] Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [01:16:27] But that would be going beyond the evidence. In your opinion, is that kind of what you're saying?

John Turner [01:16:32] I think so. You know, and I think, you know, let's. Let's keep in mind, I did. I did not print out or look at Booth's statement in preparation for today. I do think it's noteworthy that Joseph particularly encourages Martin Harris. I am pretty sure that Oliver Cowdery wasn't married at this point.

John Dehlin [01:16:53] Okay.

John Turner [01:16:54] So theoretically, Joseph could have chosen to encourage him. So why would he encourage Harris? I read that almost as a way to sort of rib Martin Harris a little bit like, well, here's a solution for you, Martin. You know, I know things haven't gone too well. On the home front for you and you're separated from your wife, maybe this is a solution.

John Dehlin [01:17:17] Okay. Okay. So now trying to address this claim in the. The plural marriage essay, that is not a new apologetic on the part of the church, because I've. I've. I've encountered this at least in the past 10 to 20 years, probably multiple times. If you're calling balls and strikes, like, you know, let's just say there's a range. There's. Oh, there's a range from like, no, the church is right. They've got documents we don't know about. We should just trust them because they would never lie. So this is, like, totally valid and true. Let's just say that's one end of the spectrum. Somewhere in the middle is like, well, there's enough room to doubt. It's motivated reasoning. But they're being sincere here. They genuinely believe that this is related to polygamy, and so they're making the claim. And then they say on the other end of the spectrum, it's like they're totally lying here, totally deceiving people. This is a totally unethical argument to claim that Joseph smith was receiving 1831 revelations about polygamy. And it's probably, you know, they're just desperate because otherwise his polygamy looks like sexual predation. Like, where. Where are you coming down in like that. That range of interpretations on why they're making this claim, you know,

John Turner [01:18:40] I mean, I guess more. I guess somewhat in the middle, but a little bit more toward. Toward the last one. I don't. I don't think it's really. I don't think it's inconceivable that Joseph thought about polygamy as a possibility in the early 1830s. I don't think it's inconceivable that he felt he had a revelation from God on the subject at that time. But I do think it's relatively unlikely. I think what emerges in Nauvoo in the early 1840s, I think it tracks with later theological developments of Joseph's developing understanding of human exaltation. And I don't see that present in the early 1830s. I think, you know, Phelps at an early point, you know, he sort of creates this historical record of this revelation. I think church member. I think church leaders, when over the decades, they've referred to evidence for the early 1830, for an early 1830s revelation, I do think they've. They have had that revelation recorded by Phelps in mind. And there's some car. There's at least corroboration from Ezra Booth that there was some sort of revelation that day. So, you know, I can understand how one could choose to put that together. It's just. It's not persuasive to me. I'd also just reiterate, even if Joseph believed that God was presenting polygamy as either a commandment or a possibility in 1831, I don't think that. I don't think that provides justification for everything that Joseph subsequently does. And so, I mean, I think that. I think that's an important point to. To keep in mind, I guess, the, you know, to answer your question succinctly, I think the evidence for an early 1830s revelation on polygamy is flimsy.

John Dehlin [01:21:12] Okay, so when you read this, you know, is this the sort of thing where you, like, roll your eyes and shake your head? You know, when you read this new essay that comes out, I imagine you have friends who might even work in the church history department. I'm wondering if you even. I mean, you. You don't have to answer this because I think it's important to maintain anonymous and confidential sources. But, like, I could even imagine, like a text to a friend saying, what the heck did y' all do here? What are you thinking? But. But is this the type of thing that at least would elicit kind of an eye roll and a head shake from you when you read it?

John Turner [01:21:53] I don't think it's surprising. So I guess. I guess not. You know, so I'm used to reading. It's not that I stay up at night reading the Doctrine and Covenants, John, but, you know, I'm familiar with, say, the introduction to section 132 in the doctrine and Covenants, which I think, you know, makes this assertion of either an 1831 or an early 1830s revelation. So this has been a position that the Church has articulated for quite some time. So I don't, you know, I'm not at all surprised to see it revisit. Reiterated here.

John Dehlin [01:22:34] Okay, so this kind of business as usual for you. But you could argue they should know better. You know what I mean? It'd be fair to say they should. They by. By 2025, maybe they should know better than to make this argument in the way they did.

John Turner [01:22:51] I think, yeah, I mean, if, If. If somebody wanted to hire me to write a similar statement, I definitely would write it differently, and I certainly wouldn't want to go further than, you know, there's some evidence that suggests that Joseph contemplated plural marriage in the early 1830s. But the evidence that we have is really fragmentary and inconclusive. I mean, I think that would be a fairer reading of the historical record.

John Dehlin [01:23:25] Okay, thanks for being willing to share that. One other quick question about this, particularly. We know that at least by, as I understand it, 1835, section 101 of the Doctrine and Covenants, you know, basically says, inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, you know, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife and one woman, but one husband. I guess that's a really good counter to this church's claim that in 1831 Joseph was receiving the revelation. Why would Joseph go to the trouble of denouncing polygamy in the Doctrine of covenants in 1835 if he had received a revelation in 1831 that polygamy was from God? But that's a real problem. Now we know that DNC 131, DNC 101 was removed from a subsequent Doctrine and Covenants. And that's one of those revelations that gets removed and swapped out without sort of notifying the full membership. But I have two questions there. Am I right that that kind of is a really good argument that there wasn't an 1831 polygamy revelation? But number two, where, where were those rumors coming from? Like, what are the rumors between 1830 and 1835 that were likely the grounds for these allegations that Mormons were practicing polygamy? On the other hand, that suggests that there was some polygamy going on or at least some hanky panky or why would they feel the need to denounce it? So now I'm doubly confused, actually. John Turner.

John Turner [01:25:08] Oh, I don't know if I can clear up all of your confusion, but. So in 1835, I think one typical response to that has been that it may be that Oliver Cowdery authored that rather than Joseph Smith. I'm not, I'm not entirely sure. I think that that could be the case. I mean, I can see, I'll just speculate a little bit if I, if I wanted to play devil's advocate against myself. I mean, if Joseph had received a revelation authorizing polygamy, I can see him nevertheless denouncing it in print. I mean, later on in Nauvoo when Joseph is engaged in polygamy, I mean, it's a secret and Joseph and others deny that this is taking place. So I mean, in theory, he could have received a revelation and publicly been saying other things.

John Dehlin [01:26:08] So polygamy denials mean pretty much nothing, I think.

John Turner [01:26:11] I think they don't mean too much. And then on the other point, like, is there a lot of hanky panky going on? I actually would say no, I don't think there is. You know, there are, you know, very various critics of Joseph and the church in the 1830s, and then retrospectively in later years accuse Joseph of this or that in the early 1830s. I actually don't think there's good evidence for Joseph not being faithful to Emma during these years. I know we're going to talk about Fanny Alger later. I tend to date that to. I date that to 1836, so the first half of the 1830s. I think a lot of those criticisms are simply due to the fact that it's pretty common for critics to tar new religious movements with, you know, the taint of sexual immorality and outlandish sexual behavior. There are some other, you know, smallish religious groups in the United States in the early 1830s that are practicing things akin to polygamy. There's a group in Maine known as the Cochranites that are practicing with what either they or their critics call spiritual wifery. So it's pretty easy to throw around accusations. I don't think there's good evidence for Joseph being an unfaithful husband during these years. Obviously, you know, you can find examples of church members, you know, committing adultery or doing other, you know, other things that might attract some reproach, but I don't think the church is not countenancing such things.

John Dehlin [01:28:16] Okay, one more question before we leave this topic and get back to chapter 10. I may have mentioned this before, but this is a chapter maybe to touch on this again very briefly. I know that we've already covered the. The in your book, the instance where Joseph is awakened at night, dragged out of his home and tarred and feathered, and his tooth is chipped, you know, with what some allege is a. Is a vial of poison. And. And he was threatened with castration. We've covered that. That tar and feathering, Correct?

John Turner [01:28:53] That's next chapter.

John Dehlin [01:28:55] Okay.

John Turner [01:28:56] Yeah, it's coming up.

Threats, Consequences, and the Missouri Church Conference

John Dehlin [01:28:57] Okay. Because my question was going to be. And maybe we should answer this, or maybe we should leave it as a spoiler. I think Grant Palmer alleges that possibly, I think. Is it the Johnson brothers, that possibly there is some reason to believe that maybe Joseph had been inappropriate with one of the Johnson sisters and that the reason he was tarred and feathered and pulled out of bed and threatened with castration was for, was potentially for rumors of inappropriate behavior with a single woman. Do we want to leave that as a spoiler or do we want to hit that now while we're talking about pre1836 allegations of polygamy? Basically.

John Turner [01:29:43] Yeah, no, I'll just say. And I'm checking where the charge originates from. So it's, it's a charge that Joseph had been inappropriate or intimate with 16 year old Marinda Johnson, who's the daughter of John Johnson, who's a significant supporter of Joseph in the early 1830s.

John Dehlin [01:30:12] Is she an eventual polygamous wife?

John Turner [01:30:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:30:16] Okay, that's interesting, but keep going.

John Turner [01:30:18] Yeah. So the charge, as far as I know, it first appears in, in an account written by a Campbellite minister and published in 1884. So it's very late and it suggests that that's why Eli Johnson targeted Joseph Smith. In that attack. It's been, you know, from there, plenty of other people have, have picked it up and repeated it. I, you know, I'd say the same thing that I would, that I said about the evidence for an 1831 revelation. I think that evidence is really flimsy. And there were other reasons why those assailants targeted Joseph Smith and tarred and feathered him in 1832. And you know, if you think about really doesn't make sense, they gave Sidney Rigdon the same treatment. Well, Rigden, no, nobody's suggesting that Rigdon was, was intimate with a young woman at the time. So I just think, I just think that attack was based on other complaints and grievances and intentions. So I don't, I just don't think there's good evidence for, you know, that, that Joseph behaved in such way toward the young Mirinda Johnson and the threat of castration.

John Dehlin [01:31:53] Was that legitimate? Was he, was Joseph, was there a doctor on hand to castrate Joseph?

John Turner [01:31:59] Yeah, so that's a good question. So I'm, I'm trying to refresh, refresh my memory. There are some reports to that effect. I don't think it's definitive. I mean somebody is definitely, you know, I mean it seems like that some people present may have contemplated doing that. Others definitely contemplated killing Joseph. I will say that I have found some other instances in the 19th century where people are castrated for things other than sexual crimes. So I don't know. I think again, it's not entirely possible that people at that scene wanted to castrate Joseph Smith. And that does, I do agree that Raises the possibility of some sort of sexual indiscretion. But the later evidence for that, I think, is just, well, it's really late and it's kind of flimsy.

John Dehlin [01:33:09] Okay. All right, well, let's jump back to the chapter then. I think the next thing to maybe cover is. Let's see. In Independence, there's a conference and the temple site is dedicated. Is this the very first conference ever held in, you know, by the Mormon Church? Church of Christ? I guess at the time.

John Turner [01:33:38] It's not the first church conference. There's definitely. There's definitely a conference in September of 1830. There's another church conference in Kirtland or somewhere near Kirtland in June of 1830. 31. This is the first conference in Missouri, though.

John Dehlin [01:33:59] Okay, that makes sense. Okay, well, anything else we want to say about Joseph's time in Missouri with his friends that, you know, that bears mentioning?

John Turner [01:34:16] No, I think what next bear is mentioning is the. The trip home.

John Dehlin [01:34:20] Okay.

John Turner [01:34:21] Which. Which is actually. It's sort of. It's. It's a fun little episode in a way. Although they didn't have a. They didn't have a really good trip. So Joseph, just a few weeks after he reaches Independence, he and about 10 other church members start heading back east. And at first. And, you know, this gets to, you know, I like to, you know, emphasize Joseph as somebody who. Who enjoys a bit of adventure. Well, in this case, they got a little bit too much. So they're going by canoe down the Missouri river. And apparently that's generally just not a good idea. There's a lot of. There's a lot of, like, logs and just tree, you know, parts of trees and debris in the river. And the canoe carrying Joseph insigne Rigdon strikes a submerged tree. It capsizes, everybody goes ashore. They make camp. William Phelps, who, you know, all along the way is actually a pretty fun character in this story. He apparently has a vision of the destroyer riding upon the face of the waters. So, like, this river. This river is not just dangerous, it's almost downright evil or satanic. And Joseph at that point dictates a revelation that they should abandon river travel, which. Which seems like a really good idea after that disaster. And it further says that they should proceed, proceed by land until they can reach canal routes. And then, as I mentioned before, these revelations during this year, they're often very nitty gritty. Specifies that Joseph Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery should head with all possible speed for Cincinnati, which would basically mean traveling by stagecoach and most of the other, the other, the residue of the party. They're going to travel by foot. And you know, that. Again, rankles, Rankles. Some people, such as Ezra Booth, who, you know, I don't think he, he likes the fact that. I don't think he likes the fact that Joseph and a couple people are going to have it relatively easy while everybody else has to sort of trudge along and preach on route.

John Dehlin [01:37:19] Interesting. I, I'll just share with you something that you probably know, but you, you know, some of our viewers and listeners may not that that scripture slash prophecy about water, you know, having the destroyer and, and water being dangerous has a really interesting legacy. You know, up to this day in the modern Mormon Church, Mormon missionaries are not allowed to swim or be in pools or the ocean while they're on their mission. Now, again, it doesn't totally make sense in terms of consistency. The general members can go in pools and in the beach, but Mormon missionaries can't. But the justification used for Mormon missionaries not being allowed to go on the water is, I believe, the dnc, you know, chapter and. Or verse or section that this cut. That this revelation is the origin for. Did you know that, John Turner?

John Turner [01:38:24] I did not know that. And that's totally fascinating. Thanks for, thanks for sharing it with me. I mean, maybe the distinction is this is a revelation that's basically delivered to a group of missionaries.

John Dehlin [01:38:36] Okay, that's interesting. The only other sort of dark twist is we might say this is all kind of silly. I was mission companions with Elder Brian Bartholomew in Guatemala, and we were, we were zone leaders together. And after he transferred to another mission. No, sorry, to another zone. He and some buddies, two buddies, went out on Lake Atitlan in Guatemala and the boat capsized and two of them died. And one of them was my former companion, Brian Bartholomew. And so as like, silly as some might claim, that revelation was, you know, as fate would have it, in my mission it came true. And those two missionaries were never found, by the way.

John Turner [01:39:28] That is a, that is a sad story. Yeah, I would say, you know, it's a revelation that it'd be easy to say. It's convenient. Right, right. They have this disaster. I forget. There had been a revelation a number of days before this one, which had basically laid out a travel plan for the group. And now there's a different revelation. And you might ask, well, why couldn't Jesus have provided. Why couldn't he have provided good instructions initially? I think in, in a way, though, that was, that was sort of the future of Joseph's leadership. During this year, everything was chaotic, everything was new. And no matter what circumstances arose, Joseph, Joseph essentially could dictate the words of the Lord for, for the particular situation. For some people like Ezra Booth, you know, this was, you know, this was convenient or manipulative. For others it was simply marvelous. And you can find recollections of church members who went to Missouri that summer and they recall or wrote about glorious meetings, marvelous things. It's as if they didn't pay any attention to the contention or, you know, some of the disasters like this, this trip home. One thing that always strikes me when reading about almost any period of history is people can live through the same thing and come away with extremely different conclusions.

Reflecting on Joseph Smith's Audacity and Legacy

John Dehlin [01:41:24] Yeah, I've mentioned this, I've mentioned this before, but I'll just say it again, that number one, you know, how many times have, you know, Christian prophets in the 19th and 20th centuries, for example, with Jehovah's Witness tradition, predicted the Second coming on a certain date. It didn't happen. But because they used blame reversal to blame it on the unfaithfulness of the members, the members ended up redoubling their commitment and increasing their belief and commitment in the church, even though the revelation didn't come true. Like the combination of failed prophecy plus blame reversal for many can lead to greater belief and commitment. And that's it. You know, it almost seems like this trip, this semi ill fated trip by some people's account of Joseph Smith to independence in 1831 was a precursor to Zion's camp because like, it didn't go as people thought and some people apostatized, but because of it. But the net effect to, you know, bad experiences and semi failed prophecies for many was increased devotion and commitment.

John Turner [01:42:48] Well, if you think about what builds devotion and commitment, right, it's going with Joseph to Missouri, going through these difficult circumstances, becoming part of, I would describe it as a little preposterous. Becoming part of this preposterous harebrained vision to build New Jerusalem in Jackson County. And so if you're willing to do that and walk alongside Joseph through all of these experiences, yeah, there's a possibility that you could be disillusioned, but you can also simply, you're becoming part of this story and I think that's really powerful. And for individuals who have accepted Joseph as a prophet, there are definitely some who, you know, scrutinize some of the revelations along the way and wonder why everything's not coming to pass as predicted. I think there are more who are simply marveling that well, I'm in the midst of this, this prophet who has the ability to bring forth really this torrent of revelations during this year. So, yeah, I, I can understand why things could go in either direction for individuals. Joseph definitely, you know, he demanded a great deal from his followers. You know, we mentioned Edward Partridge. There are a lot of other examples. He's already sent Oliver Cowdery a thousand miles to Jackson county and back. And he gives these people really hard assignments. You know, go preach to the natives, purchase land, you know, as we go forward, start businesses, start a printing press. And as we'll see in the next chapter, Joseph also, he asks a lot of himself and there are times at which, you know, I mentioned, we, we talked about this episode where he's going to go by stagecoach and other people are going to walk. But there's certainly episodes in which he sacrifices a great deal and risks everything.

John Dehlin [01:45:18] Yeah, yeah. You know, for some of, some of my audiences, people who have investigated the church's truth claims and have decided they don't believe anymore or have felt hurt by the church and so they decided they don't believe anymore, there's always, it seems like there's always going to be a subset of the population that are cynical or skeptical or critical or science minded and the going to find reasons to say that a religious movement is not, you know, valid or true or historical right or scientifically credible. But there's also going to be a large group of people, probably a bigger group of people on average in the, you know, in humanity that care much more that they're part of something, that they're part of something big, that they're part of a dream, they're part of a people, they're part of a organization or a group that has meaning and purpose. And they're going to just enjoy being with a group of people doing something bold and visionary and audacious. And that's just way more important to them than whether something is historically true or scientifically valid. They, and I think, I think it's very, it's very normal for, I'll just say ex Mormons as the people that I interact with to say this is all so non believable, this is all so silly. This is also clearly untrue. How could anybody buy it then or now? And I think that's a misreading of human nature. So many humans just want to be part of a community doing something meaningful or good or useful and like actual scientific validity or historic historical truthfulness takes a second, third, fourth, you know, backseat what do you think?

John Turner [01:47:22] Yeah, no, I mean, I. I do think that's true. I think also, you know, if we step back and maybe. Maybe step back from the particulars of some of Joseph's plans and predictions, he did promise individuals that they would become part of a great and marvelous work. I think that's language from some of his earliest revelations. And people would join the church. He would send them, you know, he would send a lot of them out as missionaries during those missions. They had powerful experiences. People will, you know, at least some people would believe what they preached. They would preside over healings. They would experience visions. I don't know how you. You know, then for some individuals, you know, they have, you know, they have experiences that might detract from that faith. Faith. I'm not. I'm not responding very articulately to what. What you said, John, but. No, I mean, I. I do think Joseph drew people into a story. And I think once people became part of that story, I mean, for. For some of them, that story would take them places they didn't want to go and they would drop out. Out of it. But I think for people who were enmeshed in that story, some of the. Some of the details, you know, they weren't. Those details didn't disprove the. The meaning, the purpose and the power that they were experiencing.

John Dehlin [01:49:10] Yeah, well, I'll just say, you know, I'm. I'm rereading Fawn Brody's no Man Knows My History as I read this book. And, you know, it's easy to say that the interesting part of Mormon history is either the Golden Plates, you know, and the Book of Mormon writing, or the treasure digging, or it's the Nauvoo stuff with polygamy, or it's the Danite stuff, you know, in late Missouri, or the Carthage stuff or the Mountain Meadow stuff. But, like, the truth is this 1831, 1832 time period is so fascinating purely because of its audaciousness. Right? And that's the thing. He's not just creating a church and growing a church when he has no business creating or building a church or writing a book. He's claiming that he's going to usher in the second coming of Jesus. So he's got to build a couple cities and a couple temples while he's starting a missionary program to the Native Americans, while he's gathering Zion, you know, while he's sending people on freaking missions to England when he's barely got a congregation of a couple hundred people in Courland And a couple dozen people in Independence, like The audaciousness of 1831, 1832, is kind of mind blowing in my view. Joseph's audaciousness, I totally agree.

John Turner [01:50:35] I mean, it is bravado, audacity, chutzpah all the way along. And you mentioned some of Joseph's activities. He's also, I mean, he's also retranslating the scriptures. At the same time. He's also, especially when we get to the next year, he's overseeing a number of sort of financial and business operations. He's trying to recover the pure language of heaven. I mean, it's always this bundle, bundle of things. And yeah, this is. I mean, Joseph is a man who doesn't stay at a fixed point. And for some of his followers, that was thrilling and inspiring. And for some people, it just wore them out and eventually pushed them away. And Joseph never stopped asking a lot of his people.

John Dehlin [01:51:37] Yeah. And I think it's my opinion now in 2025 that humans want. I don't know if you ever saw. Did you ever see the musical Wicked? Did you ever see the movie or the musical Wicked? There's a song where the, where the wizards tells Elphaba, you know, I never asked for this or planned it in advance. You know, I was simply swept here by the winds of chance. I never thought of myself as a Solomon or a Socrates. I knew who I was. One of your Diamond Dozen mediocrities. Then I got swept here even just because the folks in Oz needed someone to believe in. Like, I think we could talk about this later. But I almost think people create profits because they want something to believe in. They want someone to follow. They want someone to paint a grand vision and to organize and lead others to a place like Zion. And it's almost like you could say that a prophet. If you don't like prophets, if you don't believe in prophets, you could say they're charlatans who deceive people. But you could just as easily say prophets are created by people who, who want someone to rise up and give them a vision and lead them somewhere special.

John Turner [01:52:59] Right? Yeah. I mean, I think humans, we sort of have an ingrained. I don't know if I'm not saying this in a super scholarly way, but we have an ingrained desire to make meaning, create stories. And I agree with, agree with you. To identify and follow leaders who can bring us into their stories. I mean, and I think, you know, we see this all the time in the realm of politics. Right? I mean, politicians make even more predictions than most profits. And most of the. Most of those predictions don't come true. And that does not, in most instances, shake, you know, shake. Shake the connection between those leaders and their followers. It's not as if that connection can't be sundered. But that sort of charismatic relationship between a leader and followers, it can be. It's durable. I think it's actually a little bit mystical, if you will. It's not something that easily subjects itself to. To, you know, empirical analysis.

John Dehlin [01:54:19] Yeah. All right. Well, as we're kind of towards the end of this chapter, is it fair to say that Joseph is sort of perpetuating the expectation that Jesus is coming any year now? Is that fair to say?

John Turner [01:54:38] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:54:39] Okay. So everyone's still kind of thinking, whether Kirtland or in Independence, Missouri, Jesus is coming soon. Missionaries, get out there and get as many people converted as you can. We're going to build Zion. Zion's going to be here in Missouri. But Joseph, you mentioned towards the end of this chapter that Joseph does receive a revelation that Kirtland will remain a stronghold for five more years. Now, does that come true? Is that a failed prophecy? What made you want to include that towards the end of the chapter?

John Turner [01:55:16] So, I guess for a couple of reasons. I mean, I. I suppose Kirtland does remain a stronghold for another six years or so. But I actually, I. I do think I was going to say, as you were starting to talk about, that there is a caveat. You know, if you look at Joseph's earliest revelations, I mean, the return of Jesus seems super imminent. Joseph never says, okay, it's going to be 1832 or something like that, but it seems highly urgent. I do think there's a little bit of a shift when Joseph gets back from this first trip to Independence, where he says, let the work of the gathering be not in haste nor by flight. You know, the elders are going to need to go out and reap a harvest of converts first. Kirtland's going to remain important for a while. I actually, I take that as a sign of a little bit of realism on Joseph's part that he, for all of the lofty predictions, he feels a little bit chastened by this first trip to Independence. He sees on the ground how hard it's going to be to build a new Jerusalem there. He knows it's not going to happen overnight. So I do think there's just a little bit of an expansion of the timetable in light of what he's experienced. He's not going to Uproot everybody from northeastern Ohio immediately. You know, Kirtland, rather than Independence, remains his base of operations for the next six years. So I think, you know, that we've talked about all this audacity and boldness and bravado, but there's just a touch of, of realism in that revelation.

Closing Thoughts and What Comes Next

John Dehlin [01:57:11] All right, and then you end the chapter by, you know, the way the chapter begins in its title at some point, Independence, Missouri, what gets dubbed the Land of Joseph. Is that right?

John Turner [01:57:23] Yeah. Church newspaper refers to, I think, Jackson county as a whole as the Land of Zion, which is the land of Joseph. And I take that not actually to mean the land of Joseph Smith, but the land of Joseph's descendants, the native peoples of the Americas. But

John Dehlin [01:57:49] Joseph of, of old. Joseph of Old, basically, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Joseph. Okay.

John Turner [01:57:57] And so then the ancient Jews who built boats and sailed to America, they would also be descendants of, of that Joseph. But I kind of like, I do like to think of it as a sort of a double meaning that, you know, this is also, you know, in a way, this is land of Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [01:58:15] We're talking about Joseph with antenna, colored dreamcoat Joseph.

John Turner [01:58:19] That's the one.

John Dehlin [01:58:20] Donny Osmond, multicolored coat Joseph.

John Turner [01:58:23] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:58:24] Okay. That's what they mean. Good. Thanks for that clarification. I, I, I missed that. And then the final thing, you end the chapter with Joseph pulling a Terminator. I'll be back. Is that a precursor to Zion's camp? Basically,

John Turner [01:58:42] he comes back before that. So, you know, okay.

John Dehlin [01:58:46] It's one of many trips.

John Turner [01:58:48] He kind of comes, comes back again and again, just like Terminator. Yeah, hard to, hard to get rid of.

John Dehlin [01:58:55] All right, well, we, we did it. We did chapter, we did chapter 10 and, and the polygamy essay in less than two hours. Why don't we end by talking about what's next?

John Turner [01:59:07] Okay, so next is. We sort of alluded to some of the things that are coming up. The next chapter extends into, I think, March of 1832. Joseph's back in Kirtland, or really Hiram, Ohio, during those months. It ends with, ends with the tarring and feathering. There's a lot that happens in between. Joseph has to deal with some fallout from that first trip to Independence. He also has a number of significant revelations, including the early 1832 vision of three degrees or kingdoms of Glory. So we'll have plenty to talk about. It's a little bit longer of a chapter than, than this one, Sean, so you're going to have to roll up your sleeves for next time.

John Dehlin [02:00:09] I think I can. I think I can handle that. I'm going to ask you whether Joseph cribbed Three Degrees of Glory from Swedenborg. So be prepared for that. Is that all right?

John Turner [02:00:19] I'll be ready.

John Dehlin [02:00:21] Okay, cool. Well, John Turner, you're. You're your time. You know, we are fundraising to pay you, and there are lots of scholars that still wouldn't be as generous with their time as you are being. So I just want to say I'm really enjoying this and I'm really grateful you would spend so much time with me and our people and our audience to help understand Joseph Smith better.

John Turner [02:00:45] It's a blast. And I'd like to thank everyone who's listening and thinking about this history and engaging about it. I was in Utah last week, talked to quite a few people who've been listening to the episodes. And, you know, that's super gratifying for me. I love talking about this stuff. I find the fascinating. I find the history fascinating. I love all sorts of questions about it, all sorts of opinions. So let's keep it going.

John Dehlin [02:01:18] All right? All right. Thanks, John Turner. I'm going to do the final plugs. So please buy this book, Joseph Smith the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John Turner. Buy it at Benchmark Books because we love those guys. They may even have signed copies for you if you buy them on the Benchmark website. If you don't want to buy it with Benchmark or if they're out, of course, you can buy it through Amazon or through Yale University Press. Let's make this book New York Times bestseller if it's not already. Also, thank you to our just standard Mormon stories donors. We could not do this podcast without our regular donors. And also we couldn't do this series specifically and pay John Turner without those who are donating specifically to this Joseph Smith podcast with John Turner. So we are paying him. And the way that you, if you want to see this, continue the series, go all the way to 31 +chapters. The way you do it is go to donorbox.org Joseph Smith Become a one time or a monthly donor. And as long as we keep receiving donations to pay John, we'll. We'll keep this going all the way through. I want to just tell you, you don't want to miss the polygamy portions of John Turner's review. He gave us a preview of that at his Sunstone presentation. And it's good stuff. And he goes, he goes candid, he goes frank. I would even say he goes hard on the polygamy issues. So let's, let's fundraise to get John Turner all the way through the polygamy sections. You'll all be glad we did. So again, that's donorbox.org door donorbox.org Joseph Smith donate to see this project all the way through. Thanks to Julia. Thanks to Brooklyn. Thanks to our board. Thanks to everyone who makes Mormon stories in the OBA Stories foundation possible. Other ways you can support us subscribe to this episode on YouTube. Follow Us like us. Also on Spotify, also on Facebook, also on Instagram and TikTok. You can comment on these episodes. We want to answer your questions. Or if you have criticisms or feedback, you can do that in comments. You can also email us@mormonstories gmail.com I believe it's JL Turner gmail.com Is that right?

John Turner [02:03:58] You know that's not right. It's JG Turner 52mail.com Sorry JG Turner

John Dehlin [02:04:04] 52mail.com that's how to send John your questions or feedback directly. But yeah, support us in any way you can, you can, including giving us your feedback or comments. Thanks to everyone for today. Thanks to everyone today for joining us. I'm getting ahead of myself here. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Buy this book and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormont Stories Podcast and the Joseph Smith Podcast. Thanks again, John.

John Turner [02:04:33] Bye bye.

John Dehlin [02:04:34] Take care everybody.

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