Introduction and Episode Overview

Guest [00:00:00] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:07] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. It looks like we're releasing two episodes in the same day. I hope that's not too much for y'. All. It is January 25, 2024. I am here with my colleague Gerardo Sumano. Hey, Gerardo, how you doing? Hi.

Gerardo Sumano [00:00:27] Doing good. Give me one second. Sorry. Technically.

John Dehlin [00:00:29] No problem. We are here to address a really, a really important topic we've titled this. Mormons are Confused Right now. The Mormon Church is doing a lot of things really interesting regarding its LGBTQ policies. Specifically, we covered just a week or two ago, the Mormon Church calling as a new head of communications, a man who, who has a long, I guess, multi year history of supporting same sex marriage, of supporting, you know, of celebrating the Supreme Court decision to legalize same sex marriage, of attending pride parades, of. Of supporting gender transitioning and, and the correct usage of pronouns. And then they hire this man to become the new head, chief spokesman for the church.

John Dehlin [00:01:24] And whether it's Greg Matson of Quick YouTube channel, or Jacob Hansen of the Thoughtful Faith YouTube channel, or even, you know, Cardon Ellison, Kwaku of Ward Radio, or Midnight Mormons, however they're calling themselves these days, there's a lot of confusion amongst conservative orthodox, I'll say, even fundamentalist Mormons on what this all means. I think there's a genuine fear and concern that the Mormon Church is slipping. It's becoming more liberal, it's becoming more progressive, it's becoming more tolerant of LGBT people, and it's becoming more inclusive. And that has a lot of conservative Mormons and YouTubers concerned, specifically Jacob Hansen. And so Gerardo reached out and we decided we needed to cover this and specifically Jacob, a recent video by Jacob.

John Dehlin [00:02:26] Gerardo, make sure your, your, your video is on high def. I'm not sure if you checked that in the, in the streamyard settings, but. Gerardo, welcome to welcome back to Mormon Stories. It's been, it's been a while. Where have you been?

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:42] Just working on the background a little bit on the thumbnails and stuff. Taking a rest a little bit from podcasting, but I'm glad to be back.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] Okay, well, it's great to have you,

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:53] as you saw with, with the technical glitch at the beginning, but. But hopefully it'll go smoother.

John Dehlin [00:03:00] Well, why don't we give you the floor? I gave a little bit of an intro while you were getting set up, but what do you want to say, as by way of introduction?

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:09] Well, yeah, I think when I saw that video, you know, I Usually don't watch Jacob Hansen's YouTube channel that much, but I, I can't remember if you were the one that sent it to me, and I watched it and I was like, oh, I agree with him probably in 80 of that video. So I thought maybe it would be interesting to do a response and have his opinions expressed here on the podcast. I, I think there's a lot of ironic things that he brings up to light. And so we're just going to be discussing them, and I'm pretty excited. It's a topic that, you know, is dear to my heart, LGBT issues in the church. So, yeah, let's. I think I'm ready to dive into it.

John Dehlin [00:03:53] Yeah. And I'll just say I am. I am very much in support of open dialogue, of, Of. Of even bringing on people who are critical. I, I've avoided really showcasing Cardinalis or Quakeu from, from Ward Radio or Midnight Mormons and this Jacob Hansen guy just because they, they, in my opinion, they have a history of lying, of misrepresenting things we say. I don't mind constructive criticism or healthy dialogue. I just think there's sometimes when you go beyond the pale and are unethical that I'm not interested in giving you a platform. So I, you know, I, I would. I think there's a part of me that would have been fine, never, ever mentioning Jacob Hansen's name on the podcast. Maybe. Gerardo, share. Why. Why you think this is important, if you're willing.

Gerardo Sumano [00:04:51] Well, like I said, I think this is a very important topic. I think the. How. How the church. I mean, the video that we're gonna play from him is him addressing this confusion that maybe, I don't know if I should say mainstream or conservative Mormons are having right now where they're seeing something set from the pulpit as far as what the church stances are on LGBT issues and, and other things, and then seeing something different played out in the words and stakes in. In at least in the US Right by. By local leaders.

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:29] And I mean, I, I mean, I, I think there are some really shocking things that were a little bit interesting that he brought up to light and that you and I, John, have been discussing on the background for a bit.

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:42] So I thought, I thought maybe this was going to be a really good opportunity to talk about them. And then. Yeah, what's interesting about Jacob Hansen is that. Well, his podcast is called A Thoughtful Faith, and he doesn't really use his name on his. On the name of his video. So it'll be interesting when people Google his. Jacob Hansen. Now, this video is probably going to be at the top there on, on the YouTube searches. That'll be interesting.

John Dehlin [00:06:10] Yeah, I think a couple, yeah, a couple things. Just really quickly for me, I think number one, we've been covering LGBTQ issues literally since like 2005 on Mormon stories Podcast. Har, you've been living LGBTQ issues in Mormonism for how long?

Gerardo Sumano [00:06:29] 29 years now?

John Dehlin [00:06:31] Yeah, yeah. So. And then also just over the past five or 10 years, we've been predicting a schism in the church. The church has always kind of gone after progressive and liberal Mormons. I was excommunicated in 2015 in part because of my public support of same sex marriage in my TED Talk where I recommended that the church be more supportive of same sex marriage.

John Dehlin [00:06:57] So, you know, this is an old topic for us, but a very critical and important one. It's, it's interesting. We'll be talking about this. It's interesting to see now that this conservative wing of the church that they've been hesitant to crack down on, to discipline is now starting to turn on the church leaders and criticize the church leaders. And this includes Greg Maxson, Greg Matson of Quick Podcast YouTube channel, and, and even potentially Kwaku and potentially Jacob Hansen. So I feel sorry that they feel. I, I saw one comment. This is kind of funny. We welcome our viewers and listeners. Jake Williams writes, I think Jacob is suffering from priesthood dysphoria.

John Dehlin [00:07:39] I think that's a funny comment. We do want to welcome our viewers and listeners. We are live streaming. Please subscribe to this channel. Please share your comments and questions and experiences and we would love to share them throughout the episode. We're always grateful for those who donate to Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation@mormonstories.org your donations make all this possible. You're the backbone of what we do. And then also we always appreciate the super chats when, when they come in. So anyway, yeah, I guess, I guess in some ways we feel sorry for Jacob Hansen that he feels sad that, that, that, that the brethren are confusing and maybe abandoning his position.

John Dehlin [00:08:20] And it's a, it's like you said, it's a rare opportunity where we agree with much of what Jacob Hansen and others like him are saying because it is confusing. And so, yeah. Should we just roll the video and, and respond to it?

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:34] Sure, let's do it.

Guest [00:08:35] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:08:35] So the YouTube channel is the Thoughtful Faith. Jacob Hansen stole that name. That name comes from a book by, edited by Phil Barlow called A Thoughtful Faith. And then we had a podcast under the Open Stories foundation for many years called A Thoughtful Faith. And he literally stole it and called his YouTube channel a thoughtful Faith. So I just. I just wanted to call that out because it's factual. I'm sure he did that on purpose, but I'm sure he has paid SEO, you know, consultants funded by nonprofits, funded by wealthy church members telling him to do things like that to try and swallow up the past episodes of A Thoughtful Faith.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] I'm speculating there, but that's my opinion. Anyway, this is on the a thoughtful faith YouTube channel, and it's in the. The video is entitled Can We Go on like this? So, I mean that. That right off the bat, Gerardo, what do you think about that title? Isn't that kind of an extreme, extreme title? Can we go on like this? What do you think?

Guest [00:09:38] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:38] Kind of giving the church an ultimatum, huh? And also. Well, I think as we're going to

John Dehlin [00:09:44] discuss,

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:46] it's interesting that he's just realizing a problem that we've been highlighting on Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] Or you.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:53] You've done John for. For many, many years, but he's experiencing it for the first time for some reason.

John Dehlin [00:10:02] So he's just confused right now. In 2024. Can we go on like this? He says the church is now allowing men to be baptized as women. I am so confused. So that's what he wrote in the description. Anyway, let's go ahead and roll the video and we'll pause. Tell me when you want me to pause, Gerardo. And we also welcome our viewers and listeners to make comments, and we'll show your views and comments throughout the episode. All right, let's start with his. A high quality production value. He's got a disclaimer there.

Jacob Hansen's Video on Church Confusion

Jacob Hansen [00:10:37] So I have to admit this is a video I seriously considered not releasing. But I've met so many people like me who feel confused.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] And I took real quick, Gerardo, why do you think he seriously considered not releasing this video?

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:50] But it's on the edge of criticizing the Brethren, I think.

John Dehlin [00:10:54] I mean, we've all. I was excommunicated in part for criticizing the brethren. We all take temple vows as Mormons to never speak ill of the Lord's anointed. And. And again, Greg Matson from Quick and. And this guy, Jacob Hansen. I don't know what he's doing, if this isn't criticizing the brethren. But. But he should be very afraid. I think he should be very afraid because the brethren don't like being criticized. And he's of covenanted in the Temple to not criticize the Brethren. Right, right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:25] All right. I mean, just think about this. You know how Bill Real has oftentimes, I mean, you've said, John, that Bill, one of the reasons why he was excommunicated was because he, I mean, he called Elder Holland a liar. But he would show, you know, this is what Elder Holland said. Well, this is what he said later with, you know, and showing discrepancies. I don't think that's too far away from what Jacob is to do here.

John Dehlin [00:11:51] Yeah, absolutely. I'm also going to add if you watched our interview from earlier this week or last, Greg Matson from Quick and that's CWIC YouTube channel, he kept saying in his video where he was expressing concern, I'm not checking the church. I don't want to check the church. I'm not checking the Brethren. Like when you make a YouTube video telling the world that you, you feel like the Brethren are contradicting the church doctrine and theology, how is that not criticizing or checking the Brethren? You know, it's, it's interesting that they have to tell us they're not criticizing the Brethren as they criticize the Brethren.

Jacob Hansen [00:12:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:12:30] Yeah, for sure. Second guess. Yeah. Like how about just be quiet and let the Brethren do their job and not, not make YouTube videos that tens of thousands of people watch? That's, that's one idea. Is that an idea?

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:44] I mean, if you do, you will believe they're inspired, right?

John Dehlin [00:12:47] Like just shut the freak up and let them do their job and quit second guessing them and spreading your apostasy, your apostate questions all over the Internet to the entire world. That's, you know, that's one suggested. Take it, take it from someone who, who knows what happens, how this ends. Jacob Hansen. I'll just say that one more time. Jacob Hansen. Take it from someone who knows how this ends. Okay. All right. So you were probably right to consider not releasing this. You probably should have gone with that, I'm guessing. Okay.

Jacob Hansen [00:13:18] Took comfort in hearing Elder Oaks read a letter that I believe capture what so many members are feeling confused about.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] I just received a valuable letter from a 16 year old girl who lives in a state where we have few members. I will call her Amy. Her letter is important because she expresses feelings that are common in young people all across the church. Amy's lengthy letter includes these. I've asked one of your peers to read her words.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:58] I feel like I sometimes get inconsistent and confusing messages from the church. And in my day to day life I see members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on social media act as if they aren't part of this gospel. I feel like I'm the only young woman in my ward who sees the things I see wrong with the world. I truly don't understand why so many youth in our church don't see any problem with people changing their gender every other day, dating people who are the same sex or identify as no gender. At ward or stake youth activities, I am asked my pronouns or.

Jacob Hansen [00:14:31] Or.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:31] At school, I am asked to dance with a girl who thinks she is a boy. I know we are supposed to love everyone and show them respect, and I always do. I just feel that there is a line being crossed. I wish we heard more talk from church leaders about this problem.

Jacob Hansen [00:14:46] I have to admit, this letter also impact.

John Dehlin [00:14:49] I have to ask you, do you. Do you think there's any chance that is a real letter?

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:54] I mean. Yeah, I think it could. It probably is a real letter. What. What I thought was interesting is that the letter says the. The lady on the letter says that she feels like she's the only one in the Word who feels that way. Basically, the rest of the word is compassionate and caring through. Towards LGBT people.

John Dehlin [00:15:19] That's fascinating. Which. Which would make the Brethren worried and probably explains why. Why the church is pivoting on this issue and hiring a PR spokesman. That's LGBTQ affirming. Because the church membership is getting out ahead of the Brethren on this issue, and now they're playing damage control. Really quickly. Gerardo, what do you think about Oaks sharing this letter in this story? As an apostle, as a member of the First Presidency?

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:52] I mean, I think it's what you just said.

Jacob Hansen [00:15:54] He's.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:54] He's concerned. He's concerned that. That the words in. In the church are going too progressive. And I think it's something that the church is. Is having a hard time to manage. Right. Like you. You want to tell the members that they should love everybody, that they should respect what everybody wants to be identified as. As. As per the handbook of instructions. But then you're worried that they're gonna be too supportive, you know, which is kind of like the fine line that Elder Holland tried to walk in his. His musket fire talk that ended up blowing up. But, I mean, it's. It's a hard line to walk, I think.

John Dehlin [00:16:40] Yeah. Well, some. Some in the comments wonder whether a minor really wrote that letter. I thought it was weird. They weren't showing her face. They. They don't have an act. Even an actor reading. They just show the back of the head of the girl, as if she's reading. I think that's interesting. And again, I'm just going to tell Jacob, if members are confused, why do you keep stoking the confusion? Jacob Hansen? It seems like you're making it worse. You're not making it better by making YouTube videos. All right, let's keep rolling.

Jacob Hansen [00:17:08] Right. Acted me, because so many others feel the exact same way. And so today I am making this video and using my talents to hopefully give expression to the confusion that so many of us feel with the hope that our leaders can help us to make sense of this and provide clarity.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] All right, do you have a thought on that? I do.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:32] Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:17:33] Like, I just think as soon as you set yourself up to be a voice of the disgruntled in the church, you're literally sticking your head out to be chopped off. Don't you think, like, I, Jacob Hansen, represent the confused members of the church because there's no other way for you, the church leaders, to hear what they feel and what they're concerned about. So let me be the spokesperson. I'm just telling you, red alert, Jacob Hansen, you are offering your head on the chopping block.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:04] Well, what is his intent on this video? That's a question that I kept asking myself the, the entire time.

Guest [00:18:11] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:11] And. And I still can't come up with the answer. If he is concerned and he feels like he. He needs to warn the brethren about what's going on, why is he not writing a letter like this lady did and sending. Sending it to Elder Oaks? Why is he doing a video that's going to go out to, you know, tens of thousands of members? You. I don't know. It's. It's kind of confusing.

John Dehlin [00:18:37] Yeah. Also, doesn't he believe that the brethren talk to God and Jesus? Like, aren't they. Doesn't he sustain them as prophets, seers and revelators who are special witnesses of Christ? And if the brethren, the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, if they speak to God in Jesus, why in the fetch, do they need Jacob Hansen telling them, even correcting them or bringing something, something to their attention? Clearly God's guiding what they, what they do and what they say. Why? Does Jacob Hansen have anything to add?

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:12] Can someone help me understand that?

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:14] That would be. Yeah, that would be a good question for Jacob.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] It shows a lack of faith in God, Jesus, and they're the special witnesses of Christ that somehow they can't communicate effectively. So Jacob needs to help them, you know, Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:28] Right.

John Dehlin [00:19:28] I don't know. Is that unfair?

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:30] No, I agree. I agree. Well, and how is he helping?

John Dehlin [00:19:34] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:34] Because it just seems like he's stirring the pot.

John Dehlin [00:19:37] Exactly. He's turning the bot. Yeah. All right, let's keep going.

Transgender Woman Baptized into the Church

Jacob Hansen [00:19:43] I want to start with some fairly recent events that took place in Arizona, where a man who dresses like a woman was placed on the official records of the church as a woman.

Guest [00:19:55] Welcome, listener.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] Gerardo, I think you had a really good, important point about his language there. Do you want to make that point?

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:03] Yeah. It sounds like Jacob is not respecting these transgender persons pronouns and how they are designing to identify themselves. So I. Something that is pretty interesting in the Handbook of Instructions of the Church, the policy. While there's some bigotry there, of course, for example, members are discouraged to transition, and medical treatments are. Are discouraged. And. And also, there's kind of like a. A threat of. For church membership restrictions. There are some quite progressive things in. In the Hamburg instructions, one of them being this section that says if a member.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] And for the. For the wreck. For those who want to reference it, it's Section 38.6, entitled Transgender Individuals in. You know, the. The Church Handbook of Instructions as of January 25, 2024. Okay. Go ahead.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:03] Yeah. And this. This paragraph, second paragraph here, it says if a member decides to change his or her preferred name or pronouns of address, the name preference may be noted in the preferred name field on the membership record, and the person may be addressed by the preferred name in the word. So it's. It's giving the. It's allowing members to use the correct pronouns and the preferred name of transgender people. And here, Jacob Hansen is, for some reason, not doing that. But. And it sounds a little bit like he's mocking this person as well.

John Dehlin [00:21:42] Yeah, yeah.

Guest [00:21:42] He's.

John Dehlin [00:21:43] I mean, it sounds like he's. He's defying church policy. He's disregarding disobeying church policy. Is that fair?

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:51] I agree.

John Dehlin [00:21:53] And he's being unkind. Right. Which you. You would think if. If you swear allegiance in covenant under Jesus Christ's church, you're gonna. You're gonna look to kindness as your guiding rule, your guiding light, right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:11] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:22:12] Yeah. And. And I can tell you from firsthand experience, transgender people who are misgendered, who are referred to by the wrong names, who are called the wrong gender, that. That is extremely upsetting and unsafe for them, and he should know that by now. Right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:34] Yeah.

Jacob Hansen [00:22:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:35] Yep.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:36] I agree.

John Dehlin [00:22:37] Yeah. Okay. So do better. Do better, Jacob Hansen, if you claim to follow the Church and Christ. All right.

Jacob Hansen [00:22:46] Like a woman was placed on the official records of the church.

John Dehlin [00:22:50] Okay.

Jacob Hansen [00:22:50] As a.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] Okay, really quick, Gerardo, talk about the podcast he's about to. To share for those who don't know what it is. Listen, Learn and love. Is it. Is it Blake Osler? Is that his.

Guest [00:23:05] No.

John Dehlin [00:23:05] What's his name? Papa? Richard.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:07] Richard Osler.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] Richard Osler. Listen, learning and love. Tell us what you know about that podcast.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:12] Yeah, and the reason why I'm laughing a little bit is because you, John, have pointed out before that I. Interestingly, that phrase, listen, learn, love is a phrase that you use on.

Jacob Hansen [00:23:24] On

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:27] that got you excommunicated.

John Dehlin [00:23:29] That was the whole point. I. Those are the three points of my TED Talk. Listen, learn and love. Yeah. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:35] Anyway, so it's a podcast that. Where Richard Osler invites members of the church. Members. He has had some non members and some people who have also left the church, but mostly members of the church who are lgbt and they share their experiences. Experiences as openly as. As they can, you know, on how it is to live as an LGBT person in the church. And so here's Richard Osler who. Who was a bishop, I believe. I don't think he currently is a bishop, but he used to be a bishop. And interviewing this person who was baptized and she's transgender.

John Dehlin [00:24:16] Yeah. Really quick, I'll share a comment from Julia analyzing Mormonism. She says, just like they want us to be respectful of the name Mormon, they should respect chosen names. And I'll add pronouns. That's a great. That's a great point, Julia. Thanks. Thanks for sharing. Okay. And we should also say that, you know, along with like Julie Hanks, Julia Diazebedo Hanks, these sort of more progressive voices within Mormonism. Patrick Mason, you know, the Givens's, the Bushmans, Papa Osler, they've all come under fire by these sort of ultra conservative fundamentalist Mormon Twitter, Twitter people and YouTube people. Right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:05] Like, yes, totally.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] Yeah, they're kind of. They're kind of always in the line of fire of people like Jacob Hansen. All right, he's gonna. We're gonna play now from Papa Ostler.

A Transgender Convert Shares Her Story

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:25:14] Welcome, listeners, to another episode of Listen, Learn and Love, hosted by Richard Osler. My guest on today's podcast is a new convert to the church. Will you tell us, Lauren, and will you tell us your last name? I want to make sure I say it right again. And Lauren is a transgender Latter Day Saint who joined the church following a legal transition, following medical transition, is obviously a woman, but I just thought this would be A wonderful story. For those that are trying to better minister to lg, to transgender Latter Day Saints, for those that are transgender, for those that are trying to. That are in local leadership trying to create space for transgender Latter Day Saints and our joint prayers, the things that Lauren shares will be helpful. Talk more about what that means to you. When someone just says, this is my friend. She's my girl.

Video Clip 1 [00:26:09] Yeah, it just feels super affirming and super loving.

Video Clip 1 [00:26:14] I mean, yes, it's.

Video Clip 1 [00:26:18] Being proud to be trans is awesome. Like, I have a trans flag hanging

Video Clip 1 [00:26:23] up in my room.

Video Clip 1 [00:26:25] Like, I am.

Video Clip 1 [00:26:26] I have the proud part of it,

Video Clip 1 [00:26:28] but I also know that isn't my full definition.

Video Clip 1 [00:26:32] I am here, and I'm able to

Video Clip 1 [00:26:38] be in all spaces. I don't just have to go to one space and feel like that's all I belong to. I can go to all spaces, just be myself.

Video Clip 1 [00:26:50] I mean, that's helpful for me. Listeners, I think Lauren, it sounds like, is fine having a conversation about being trans and what that means to somebody who wants to understand. But I think generally, Lauren would like to be accepted as a sister, a woman, a girl, whatever circle she's in, and not have this sort of additional label, if I'm speaking correctly. And I think that's one of the things we can do as Grace as members of the church, is just see you as a daughter of God, because that's the way you see you, and I'm going to see you the way you see you.

Video Clip 1 [00:27:22] I'm not going to define you based on anything, but how you're defining you. That just seems like the gospel of grace or the gospel of kindness, the gospel of love, the gospel of support, the gospel of compassion. And I'm learning a little bit, listeners, just listening to Lauren as I'm going

Video Clip 1 [00:27:39] along here now, my initial thought.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] All right, Gerardo, anything you want to say about how awesome Richard Osler is?

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:47] He's awesome. Yeah, I agree. You know, sometimes I've been a little bit. Not publicly, but maybe just within me, critical of. Of him, because in some way, I feel like he's part of the enabling of what some LGBT people experience in the church. But obviously, the highlighting of these stories is so incredibly important, and I think there's gonna be a. A shocking part to this story that is gonna make Jacob really, really upset in just a minute, and we're gonna be talking about it.

John Dehlin [00:28:25] All right, well, let's keep. Let's hear what Jacob has to say after playing that.

Hansen's Reaction to the Transgender Baptism

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:28:31] That clip was that perhaps this was some sort of a mistake. I Mean, if a man dresses like a woman and says he's a woman, the church now a woman, you know, and I, and I noticed some of

Video Clip 2 [00:28:45] the questions were what does your membership? I mean, as you just said, like

Video Clip 2 [00:28:51] I even have it right here like

Video Clip 2 [00:28:53] it says female on the Membership Tools app.

Video Clip 2 [00:28:59] Anybody didn't listen to the first podcast? This was not a one off with some missionaries that went rogue in Arizona and just baptized you on the sly. Lauren was pretty clear that she had a supportive mission president. This is, goes through the mission president, the new converts. Baptism goes through the mission president who needed to get First Presidency approval. You were taught by sisters because you're

Video Clip 2 [00:29:25] a woman, but this is a man.

John Dehlin [00:29:28] All right, so before he goes on his rant that's obnoxious and offensive, Osler brings up a really important point. This is the second First Presidency Mormon Church. First Presidency approved transgender baptism that I'm aware of. So this is the second. I was aware of one a few years back. But this means that even though Russell M. Nelson, Dallin H. Oaks and Henry B. Eyring, you know, express doctrine and theology and concern about gender transitioning and or same sex marriage, they are approving the baptism as TR of transgender individuals. Right? Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:14] Well, it's a hard, I mean put, put yourself in their position. I, it's pretty cool, right, that this is happening and it's, it's even cooler. That is being highlighted by both sexual sides of, of Mormonism. Right. The conservative side and also the progressive side. But if you put yourself on their shoes of First Presidency and you know the doctrine of the, of the, of baptism is that all your sins are forgiven when you get baptized and you believe that social or, or any kind of transition is sinful. Well, those, those sins would, would have to go away.

Jacob Hansen [00:30:57] Right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:57] So it's, it's a hard position to be in where the First Presidency have to decide these cases. Right. But at the end they're choosing to, to let these people join the church with. I think it's pretty impressive.

John Dehlin [00:31:11] Yeah, yeah. But I don't know what it means. I. Why wouldn't the church deny these baptisms? Right. Just say you're, you're not living in. Just like they might not baptize a man and a woman who aren't married who are living together. That, that's how my mission went. Right. They probably wouldn't baptize two gay men who were married or living together. I wonder why they're allowing transgender individuals to be baptized when that in some ways they're living out of harmony with the policy.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:48] Right. The only. The only difference with. With people living when they're not living together, when they're not married or in some sex marriages, there's always something they. They have to do, right? They have to divorce or they have to get married.

Guest [00:32:03] If.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:04] If they're like a heterosexual couple with transgender people, it becomes a little bit more complicated, especially if they have undergone surgical procedures to transition. Because then what is there to do after that? Right? Like, are they gonna. Is a church gonna require them to detransition in order them to get baptized? I think that just gets really complicated.

John Dehlin [00:32:26] So instead they just decided to kind of waive the concern and allow them to be baptized.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:32] Right?

John Dehlin [00:32:34] Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. And so I guess that's why we're gonna see Jacob Hansen loses mind here. All right, let's play.

Jacob Hansen [00:32:42] Right. Sister missionaries are not allowed to meet alone with men. Is it now the case that if a man claims he's a woman, the sister missionaries can meet alone with him?

Guest [00:32:53] You were on the church.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] Do we think for a second that Jacob Hansen is concerned about the safety of the sister missionaries here?

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:03] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] Is that what he's trying to tell us? He's, like, worried the sister missionaries are going to be unsafe meeting with a man?

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:10] No, he's just trying to be unkind and. And mock this transgender person A thousand percent.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] And. And Cultural hall writes, jacob knows what he's doing. He's intentionally being hurtful. And I. Unfortunately, I. That's how he. That's how I think that's his brand. And I just don't. I don't know why the church lets these YouTubers do what they do. Because Jacob Hansen could be excommunicated for violating Jesus's teachings of kindness, but somehow he's violating the church's policies on respecting the names and genders and pronouns of transitioning people. Why doesn't the church discipline Jacob Hansen?

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:52] Right. Yeah, that's a good question.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] Why is unkindness or cruelty not grounds for excommunication? But. But support. But. But being same sex married is. Or even in my case, speaking up for same sex marriage is grounds for excommunication. It's. It's strange. All right, let's keep going.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [00:34:15] Presidency approval for your baptism in a written communication to the mission president. The way that works. And you were. Came on the records as the church as female going to release society. The restrictions are you cannot attend the temple, and you're at peace with that. So if someone's wondering, this was a Rogue event by some. Whatever vocabulary we're going to use, that's going to end badly. This is the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints with keys to authorize your baptism. And that is significant.

Video Clip 3 [00:34:55] I agree. If men are now able to be put on the records of the church as women and treated as a woman, that is extremely significant, and it makes the following very hard to understand.

Video Clip 3 [00:35:09] We also know that really quick. A lot of the commenters are noting that I'm really angry. And, I don't know, part of me feels like, yeah, I'm angry because he's being so mean and hurtful, but part of me feels bad that I'm. That I'm being so upset. And Herdo, these sorts of issues touch you more closely than me, and you're being so cool, calm, and collected. So I don't know what's going on here.

Video Clip 3 [00:35:35] I'm sorry. Well, John, this. I know this is something that's important for you too, right? So I think it's important for everybody, and everybody just reacts differently. But, yeah, I don't know.

Video Clip 3 [00:35:48] Yeah. Yeah, this. This does touch people. People close to me, people that I love.

Video Clip 3 [00:35:54] So, yeah. Yeah.

Video Clip 3 [00:35:56] So that's probably it. I. Yeah. So thanks for. Anyway, if you think I'll try and keep calm and professional and collected, but if I'm upset, it's because I'm experiencing public cruelty that I think is inappropriate and hurtful and damaging. And I'm. It's upsetting me, but I'll try. And thanks for calling me out on it. I'll try and I'll do better. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual, premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

Video Clip 3 [00:36:31] Interestingly, Bishop Osler, who hosts this podcast, is keenly aware of this man. Being treated as a woman creates some seeming confusion and contradiction in church policy and listeners.

Video Clip 3 [00:36:45] I recognize that, if I understand the handbook correctly, if you go through a medical transition like Lauren has, that can put you sideways with church teachings. But you did that as before you joined the church. And so through the letter to the senior leaders of the church, I assume the first presidency or whoever at the church handles these things. You were given the green light, and so some may feel there's inconsistencies there. We treat investigators that have fully transitioned different than we teach our own members who feel impressed to transition or fully transition.

Video Clip 3 [00:37:22] Do you see what he's saying? Members can face church discipline if they socially transition. It would seem that doing so according to the church's policy constitutes some sort of sinful behavior. But this man was baptized without any regrets about his transitioning. And in fact, he's very proud of the fact that he transitioned. And frankly, Bishop Osler thinks this is great.

Guest [00:37:47] That is you, Lorne, because here you are looking for the unique doctrine of our restored church and the hope and healing it brings. So we're gathering Israel, but LGBTQ people are Israel too. Even those that are already baptized, that are lgbtq, they're part of the gathering of Israel, is to help them feel more welcome and included. Those that are born into our faith that sometimes wonder if there's room for them or place for them. So you help us.

Jacob Hansen [00:38:16] Help us what?

John Dehlin [00:38:18] Anything you want to say about what Oscar was saying?

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:21] I think he has a great point.

Jacob Hansen [00:38:23] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:23] Like, there's definitely some disparity as far as how people who have transitioned before joining the church are treated versus people who are already members and. And decide to transition. Well, actually, thinking about it, Jacob Hansen might have mudded waters a little bit because I don't think he said it yet. But Jacob Hansen is going to say that members of the church who. Who are already members and decide to either socially transition or go through surgical procedures, they can, he says, they can face membership discipline. But that's not what the Hamburg of instruction says. The Hamburg of instruction says church membership restrictions gives very specific of what those restrictions are.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:14] And it gives some examples like entering the temple or receiving the priesthood, which would be the same restrictions that these. That this transgender woman who joined the church would be facing in the future as well. So actually, just thinking about it, I don't think either Richard Osler or Jacob Hansen are totally right when they're saying that the people are treated differently. Because I don't.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:42] I could be wrong. But my understanding from what I read on the hammock of instructions is that there is not church discipline, it's just membership restrictions, which would be the same for both. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:39:54] Yeah. I want to share the comment of M. Gunter. They write stay angry at this extreme vitriol. It's impressive that you haven't become numb to such hatred after seeing so. So much of it over the years. Thanks, Sam. Thanks for the super chat. Thanks for the support. Speaking of anger, look at Jacob's face right now. Gerardo, what do you see there? What emotions do you see in his eyes, in his brow, in his mouth? What do you see there?

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:22] Oh, he's definitely angry.

John Dehlin [00:40:23] He's angry.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:25] Yeah, I think he's angry.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] And if anger is a secondary emotion, I can say as a psychologist, anger Is known as a secondary emotion. And usually under anger there, there's a couple choices. There's either fear or sadness. Would you say he's afraid or sad or both?

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:45] I, I mean, he, I think he's afraid. I think that tells us. He tells us that on. In the title of the video and throughout the video. He just doesn't know how the church is going to move forward with this. What he perceived to be. Perceived to be over progressive movement taking over the church.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] So he's afraid that progressives are taking over the church.

Guest [00:41:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:10] And is he sad? What is it? What's he sad about? What does he have to be sad about?

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:18] The video show. He will show quotes from the prophets.

Guest [00:41:22] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:23] And about what they say regarding gender and, and, and marriage. And I think that that probably causes some. Not just confusion, but also. What's it called?

John Dehlin [00:41:44] John. John Godreau is saying disgust. He's seeing disgust. What were you going to say, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:51] Yes. I was going to say cognitive dissonance.

John Dehlin [00:41:54] Oh, okay. Got it. Yeah.

Guest [00:41:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:56] Okay. Yeah. I mean, yeah, there's disgust, there's fear, there's sadness that his church is going to change. Part of what's weird about that is the church has been changing for 200 years. Like the church changes all the time. Is it. Is he never received the memo that the Mormon church changes all the time.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:15] Right.

John Dehlin [00:42:16] How is that a new thing for him?

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:19] Yeah, well, when you're that conservative, orthodox member of the church, you know, you're under this idea that there are core doctrines of the church that never change, which I know, I, I think we've, we all know.

John Dehlin [00:42:33] I mean, the church used to teach that it was a sin to even have gay thoughts and feelings. They used to send gay members to conversion therapy, electroshock therapy at byu. Then they start softening that with the Mormons and gays website, you know, but then they do the exclusion policy when, when same sex marriage is legalized, then they take the same sex, you know, the exclusion policy, then they take it away. Four years later, you know, they were excommunicating same sex Mormons. We're going to be talking in a future episode about how it appears they've stopped excommunicating married same sex Mormons. Like, how is it new to Jacob that the church has not been constantly evolving and changing on this issue? It's just beyond me. It's like he just woke up and all of a sudden has been paying attention to the church.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:20] And it's LGBT policies.

Guest [00:43:22] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:22] It's mind Boggling a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:43:24] Yeah. All right.

Accusations That the Church Is Abandoning Its Doctrine

Jacob Hansen [00:43:27] Confused gender destroy women only spaces in the church. But according to Bishop Osler, if we are confused, perhaps it's our fault. Perhaps the Lord's doctrine on gender is not what we think it is.

Guest [00:43:42] You know, some of you may listen really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:43:44] Do you think he's concerned about women only spaces in the church? That somehow he's just this protector of women, Women only spaces. And that's really a concern to him.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:59] I would hate to get political, but it's obviously, it parallels really well with the political stance of that. That current conservatives have regarding transgender issues. Right there. Bathrooms, Church is talking about.

John Dehlin [00:44:16] Yeah, yeah, you're right. So he's reflecting more cultural political issues of the day than in any way is he following the leadership of the br. Except for Oaks. Like Oaks did play that letter that he plays at the very beginning expressing the concern of that teenage girl. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:36] Like, he's not talking about bathrooms. And what about the sister missionaries teaching a transgender.

John Dehlin [00:44:41] Or Relief Society. Right. Or Relief Society women meetings. Anyway, it's weird when people hide their bigotry behind a feigned concern for marginalized groups like women.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:56] Yeah. If he's worried about Relief Society having a transgender person in it, why is he not worried about the General Relief Society? What's it called? Like the, the meeting they have?

John Dehlin [00:45:08] Yeah, he's going to show that. He's going to show that clip with

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:11] first presidents with the First Presidency in it.

John Dehlin [00:45:13] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:14] There's men, definitely on Relief Society meetings.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. Why are they letting First Presidency members speak to women at women's only meetings? Like they're violating sacred women's only spaces when they go speak at those meetings.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:28] Right.

John Dehlin [00:45:28] Yeah, it's. Yeah, it, it, it's tone deaf. I don't think it's sincere. It's disingenuous.

Guest [00:45:33] Be listening to a transgender Latter Day Saint for the first time. And I love the words of Elder Uchtdorf where he said, how often have the Holy Spirit tried to tell us something, but we couldn't get past the massive iron gate of what we thought we already knew?

Jacob Hansen [00:45:50] But then what are we to make of what our prophets teach us?

John Dehlin [00:45:54] Fundamental to us is God's revelation that exaltation can only be attained through faithfulness to the covenants of an eternal marriage between a man and a woman. Woman. That divine doctrine is why we teach that gender is an essential characteristic of individual, premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

Jacob Hansen [00:46:19] Are you confused? I have to say that I am. Now, if this were the only instance of things that confuse me, I would not be making this video. But let's consider these words from Elder Holland as he encouraged the BYU faculty to. To not engage in LGBT advocacy.

John Dehlin [00:46:39] For example, we have to be careful

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:41] that love and empathy do not get

John Dehlin [00:46:44] interpreted as condoning an advocacy.

Jacob Hansen [00:46:48] Now, with that in mind, it confuses me why the church would recently have bishops like Bishop Shrinian, who has been engaged in queer advocacy for years, hired as the new communications director for the church. This is a man who, while serving as bishop, was posting his joy at the redefinition of marriage.

John Dehlin [00:47:11] God sanctioned marriage between a man and a woman has been the basis of civilization for thousands of years. There is no justification to redefine what marriage is. Such is not our right, and those who try will find themselves answerable to God.

Jacob Hansen [00:47:34] Is this no longer what we believe? It is at the very least, confusing to have a bishop in our church posting love is love while the church's official teachings are that homosexual relationships are seriously sinful. In fact, I was recently.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] Pause.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:53] Yeah, that was. I just had a thought right there. When he talks about, when he plays the clip from Gordon B. Hinckley, he speaks with very strong words where he says that people who attempt to change this definition of marriage legally, they would be, you know, be accountable to God.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:18] That's pretty interesting, giving that. I mean, we've covered this, but given that the Church has now supported the Respect for Marriage Act. I mean, of course, because he benefits them, because he gives them the. The religious protections that they. That they want to have. But I mean, that's really striking contrast with Gordon B. Hinckley saying from the pulpit that people are going to be accountable to God for trying to define or change the definition of marriage. And. And then Jacob Hansen asks, is this not what we believe? Well, of course it's not, Jacob, because the church has officially now supported a bill that officially, you know, redefines the definition of marriage in the law.

John Dehlin [00:49:01] Yeah, you know, I don't know exactly the right place to talk about this, but if you remember when, when the church PR person put out a statement against Tim Ballard, how people like Carden Ellis and others, immediate and probably Jacob, immediately, their reaction to it was that there's a mole. There's a. There's a Q, there's some, you know, some mole in the church who's making decisions that the Brethren don't know about, that somebody's gone rogue inside the church, that the Brethren aren't doing this, that it's apostate. Liberal, you know, church employees that have infiltrated the church. Sort of this weird conspiracy thinking stuff. Like what do you think Jacob is thinking?

John Dehlin [00:49:49] Does he think that when Shirinian is called as the head of communications that like the top church lead church leaders didn't vet it, that they don't know? Or does he think that like somehow either shrinia they didn't vet Shynian before they put him in the most important role in the church, the PR spokesman or you know, what is he thinking? That the Brethren are asleep at the wheel and that these decisions are being made without their knowledge. And if so, is he concerned that the Brethren are asleep at the wheel and aren't paying attention to these really big decisions? Like what? What's. Because he's quoting Oaks and he's quoting Hinckley and he's quoting Nelson as if he has faith in them and takes them seriously.

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:34] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [00:50:36] What do you think he's thinking?

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:38] Well, I think. Remember when at the beginning I said this looked a lot to me like what Bill Real did to Elder Holland, where he would put one of his statements here and then another of his statements here and then show the disparity. It looks like that's kind of what he's doing here. He's probably genuinely confused and saying this is what they're telling us officially from the pulpit, but then this is what they're doing and.

John Dehlin [00:51:06] But there's only two. There's only two possibilities. Tell me if I'm wrong, Gerardo. One is that the Brethren are asleep at the wheel, too old to pay attention, that they're not leading the church and that all these mid level progressive bureaucrats in his mind have kind of taken over the church. That's one option.

John Dehlin [00:51:26] And I think he'd be concerned that the people supposed to be leading the church aren't. The other option is that they know, which I think is the true one. I've talked to Jim, I've heard from Jim Bennett, who confirms that Shirenian was vetted. He was interviewed by top church leaders. They knew his background and he was picked because of his background, not out of ignorance for it. So the other option is that the Brethren are in charge. They are making these decisions. And if that's the case, then he should be apostatizing because it would mean that the top leaders of the church are going against their own teachings.

John Dehlin [00:52:05] Doesn't he lose either way? Is there a way out? Is there a third way that I'm not seeing for Jacob Hansen and. And his ilk?

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:15] I mean, is the second one includes the fact that the Brethren can be duplicitous intentionally.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] That the brother to, like, I mean,

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:23] well, not lying, but.

John Dehlin [00:52:26] But I just think genuine duplicitous. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:29] Like they, they know that there's things that they can, you know, like Elder Holland told you when you met with him, like, oh, this is great that you don't want people to get divorced over faith crisises, but I can't say that over the pulpit. But you go and tell people that I told you that that was okay.

John Dehlin [00:52:46] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:46] You know, is that kind of where they're at? I. I think it is, but I, I'm not. I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [00:52:55] Yeah, I just think that's a. It's a slippery slope for Jacob because really, unless he's just totally ignoring logic, this leads him to believe the Church is in apostasy. And that's where the Denver Snuffer types go. That's where the Chad Dabel and Lori Valo types go. That's even where the Tim Ballard and the, you know, the visions of glory.

John Dehlin [00:53:18] You know, Avram Gileadi, who's the author of Visions of Glory. I'm spacing on his name for Tom. Tom Harrison. All these, all these fundamentalist conservative Mormons, they often go to the churches in apostasy, which is weird because I thought Mormonism was brought in to end the apostasy. So now we're going to have another apostasy after the first apostasy, and we need a second restoration to re. Restore the restoration that came with Joseph Smith. Like, I, I don't know how these guys live in their minds without going crazy, which is probably why look, I mean, look at his face. He's clearly tormented. Right. Because he's. We're watching a cognitive dissonance meltdown of Jacob Hansen.

John Dehlin [00:54:07] Unless he just puts it all back in the box and just follows the Brethren and believes the brethren. He's on the course of a meltdown, right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:15] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:17] I don't know how else he's going to do it. Same with. Same with Cardinalis, same with Kwaku. I don't know how they maintain this position in the long run. Either they leave and apostatize or the Church kicks them out. I don't know how it doesn't end in one of those two things.

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:32] Yeah, Yeah. I mean, there's also the possibility that the Church doesn't do anything to them because they have public platform.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:39] And the creature. They shouldn't touch people.

John Dehlin [00:54:43] But what happens when they get a following of A hundred thousand people or more. Like, they're already at 20, 30, 40,000. Like, at what point does the church fracture because they have such a large following that they're influencing?

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:55] Yeah, that's true.

John Dehlin [00:54:57] I mean, eventually, the church has always cut this stuff off. Now, maybe it's too feeble and weak now, but if that's true, then the church is going to have even a worse. A worse situation on its hands. Because imagine elders quorum, right, with these. With these factions battling against each other. I just don't know how the church withstands that. All right, let's keep going.

Jacob Hansen [00:55:21] Involved in a membership council for someone who had engaged in homosexual behavior and where he faced church discipline. Yet when the Deseret book author Charlie Bird announces his engagement to his boyfriend on social media, I see other LDS authors and BYU officials writing entire blogs where they celebrate this union that the church. Church teaches is deeply sinful.

Charlie Bird, Same-Sex Marriage, and Church Discipline

John Dehlin [00:55:49] Now, now, Gerardo, we've covered Charlie Bird in the past, and people like him. I know you have strong feelings about Charlie. Is there anything you. You want to share or say about Charlie Bird and his husband Ryan?

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:06] I.

John Dehlin [00:56:06] Well, again, for those who don't know who Charlie Bird is, do you mind giving a little background?

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:12] Yeah, well, Charlie was a. The BYU mascot.

John Dehlin [00:56:16] Cosmo the Cougar.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:17] Yeah. When he was. When he was in college, became pretty popular because of a viral video that went and came out and then. And then eventually came out as. As gay and wrote a book that the Dessert book published. And then eventually.

John Dehlin [00:56:37] Well, it was also mentioned Bench in the podcast, right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:40] Oh, yeah, He's. He's really good friends with Bench, who was an honor code administrator at the time. And then it was revealed that as the book was printing from Desert Book, you know, this book of Charlie Bird telling his story about being gay, member of the church and. And loving the church, but how hard it is to be LGBT and celibate and.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:04] But also not encouraging people to be celibate. It was like, kind of like a. A hard line to walk on that book. But anyway, as the book was printing, he was secretly dating or getting to know his current husband, Ryan Clifford. And eventually he decided, as he was almost graduating his master from. From byu, to come out about his relationship, to tell the honor code administration that. That he had been dating. The honor code didn't really do anything to discipline him. They just told him he needed to stop his relationship, which he did supposedly for. For the remaining time. And. And then he.

Jacob Hansen [00:57:48] He.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:49] When he graduated, he came, uh, he, you know, kept dating Ryan and Now they're married. And right before he announced his engagement, he published his second book and which was also, which was not published by Deser book was self published. But Desert Book did sell the, sell it for a little bit on, on the bookstores and I believe online. And, and then once he announced his, his engagement to Ryan, he, he himself went to Desert Book and told them, hey, I know this is probably. Well, I don't know exactly why he told them, but he, he asked them to remove his books voluntarily from this, her book.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:33] But, but a lot of people love him and he's, he has a big platform. He's on Instagram, has a podcast with, with Bench Lottie called Questions from the Closet. And there's a lot of uh, LDS people who support him and love him. And now that he's married has definitely, uh, bring a light into, you know, what it is like to be LGBT member of the church who's married to someone of the same sex.

John Dehlin [00:59:00] Yeah. And we're going to do an episode about these guys, I believe. But one of the things that's so upsetting to Greg is, is what we've depicted in this slide here. Do you want to just explain what this slide is and what it's saying?

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:13] Well, it turns out that they are

Guest [00:59:15] being

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:18] embraced in full fellowship in their word. Charlie and Ryan have callings, bro. Yeah. So there is, there has their names, Charlie Bird and Ryan Clifford and they're both Word Activities Chair. That's, that, that's their, that's their calling. And, and yeah, so there, there's even more, more things to, to talk about later in a future episode about how they're being embracing full fellowship in in their words.

John Dehlin [00:59:49] Yeah, we've covered this on Mormon stories in the past, but I can, I can list. I could, I can list. Just quickly I went back and found, I don't know, four or five Mormon Stories episodes where we interviewed same sex married couples who were excommunicated. So Dusty Johns and his partner from Idaho Falls, they were excommunicated for getting same sex married. Lori Lee hall, who was the chief architect for the Mormon church for like 30 years, she was excommunicated simply for gender expression. She didn't even have any surgeries. And she was excommunicated simply for changing her gender expression after giving 30 plus years to the church as the head church architect architecting many of their temples.

John Dehlin [01:00:38] And then we've got Elizabeth Grimshaw, who's facing excommunication, who, sorry, who, who was excommunicated along with her partner for, for same sex marriage. And, and then there's at least one other story that we have on Mormon stories. So we've been covering this for a long time. For so long the church has gone after these people and excommunicated them when they found out that, that they had taken that step and gotten excommunicated and Ryan and, and Chart. And I guess Jacob's super upset that now all of a sudden the church is letting Charlie and Ryan be members in what appears to be fellowship. I don't know if it's full fellowship. I don't know if they have temple recommends, but they clearly have callings. Right. So, Gerardo, what were you gonna say?

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:29] Oh, I was just gonna say another one. Another one episode, which is quite shocking I think is the one we did with Douglas and Brennan where they're not even attending church. Brennan has not attended his word in years. He never served a mission. He was not endowed.

Guest [01:01:46] He,

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:48] he didn't have even. He didn't have the Melchizedek priesthood. And he was contacted by his bishop to face disciplinary action because he was married to Douglas. And this was like just recently. And we have the recordings of the, of, of the meetings with the bishop and then the stake president. And we called the episode persecuted by the Mormon Church because literally, like it was the bishop trying to figure out the address because he didn't even live in the Word. The bishop went in like long. It was this crazy story. Like they, they had to drive out, out of word boundaries to deliver the letter for church discipline. Anyway, just crazy, crazy story. And then we have Charlie and Ryan here with word with callings and being embraced in the Word.

John Dehlin [01:02:41] And it's an important moment because I haven't heard about the excommunication of same sex married couples for a while. So it's possible the church has paused same sex marriage excommunications and is. It is soft transitioning into ward embraces of same sex married couples where they're not disciplined. Maybe they can't have supple recommends, but it looks like they can have callings and, and, and, and be members in almost full fellowship. And if the church has made that change, that's pretty significant, right, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:16] Right. Right. For sure.

John Dehlin [01:03:18] It's. And I would say you and I would say that that's where maybe we disagree with Jacob Hansen. I think we would celebrate that as a positive change. I don't know. I don't want to speak for you, Gerardo. Do you celebrate that as a positive change? For sure, yeah. Okay. I Do, too. But. But here we've got Jacob Hansen's face. I don't think he's loving it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:38] Yeah, I agree.

John Dehlin [01:03:40] All right, let's keep going.

Jacob Hansen [01:03:41] Regardless of your opinions on these matters, is this not confusing? Even Young Women's General President Emily Bell Freeman still has Charlie posted on her social media page as an example of someone that. That we can all learn from. So is it that some people who have some level of celebrity status don't face any sort of church discipline for what they do, while ordinary members like my friend do? I couldn't help but think of my friend who was in that membership council and what he thinks about all this really quickly.

John Dehlin [01:04:15] Gerardo, what do you think about that idea? Is it. Is Charlie. Are Charlie and Ryan getting a pass because Charlie's a celebrity or is the church just changing and they're the most visible example of the church changing? What do you think?

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:32] I think it's a combination of everything. It's a combination of his celebrity status. Not only his celebrity status, but how he has built the brand around him. Right. Like, he believes in the church so much. He loves Jesus. He loves the church. He loves the brethren. So it's hard to excommunicate someone like that. Right. And then. And then also a combination. Combine that with being in a. In. In one of, you know, in a very progressive word, with a lot of people that support you, with a bunch of members that support you and love you and you and your husband. It's just a combination. I think, of the perfect recipe for that to happen. I. I don't think it's something that's coming up from. From headquarters necessarily.

John Dehlin [01:05:18] But, yeah, I'm getting. I'm getting the question from Spencer Ostad. John, is it true that they don't punish celebrities? It's pretty true. I remember when Tyler Glenn was coming out against the church with his Excommunication album. We were close friends at the time. He received direct word that. That throughout the church, the word was put out, leave Tyler Glenn alone. And whether it's, you know, David Archuleta, Tyler Glenn, you know, Steve Young, the church does not like to go after celebrities because it becomes an international scandal. But then that's weird that prophet seers and revelators are selectively applying the disciplinary councils and punishment and giving favor to celebrities. That's kind of weird, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:09] Well, and I have to say that I think the Charlie and Ryan situation is.

Guest [01:06:14] Is.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:15] It's a little bit different than most situations because, yeah, Tyler did do that album and everything. He was public about his stances with the church. But he was not attending church. Right. He was not attending award. He. He wasn't trying to get. Or taking the sacrament or trying to get callings. But. But these guys are so. It is. It is a little bit different and really interesting and. And something to celebrate for. Sure. Like you said, John, the fact that the church is not doing anything to them, but. But doing the opposite. Right.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] I don't know if you even know the answer, but Donnie Lee Gringo in Brazil is asking if David Archuleta resigned or has been excommunicated. Do you know and are you able

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:56] to say, I don't believe he has.

John Dehlin [01:06:59] You don't believe he's resigned or has been excommunicated?

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:02] He's definitely not being excommunicated. I don't believe he has resigned.

John Dehlin [01:07:05] Okay. All right. And we could be wrong, but that's just our. It's not understanding. All right, let's keep going.

Local Leaders Quietly Shifting Church Culture

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [01:07:13] Confusing event had to do with Liv Haney. Liv is a young women's president who also is a queer activist. She has explicitly stated online that she has stopped believing in the Family Proclamation and participates in all sorts of queer activism in and around the church's BYU school. So it was really confusing to me when Sharon Eubank and the Relief Society General Presidency chose Liv as the person to join them on stage at byu. So I'm very pleased to introduce my friend Jessica Livier Haynes, but she goes by Liv.

Video Clip 4 [01:07:51] I'm so happy that you're here.

Video Clip 4 [01:07:54] Welcome.

Video Clip 4 [01:07:54] Thank you. Welcome to the BYU conference.

Video Clip 4 [01:07:57] Well, my name is Liviere, but most people call me Liv, and I really like it. I'm a young women's president. I'm a daughter, a sister, a returned missionary.

Video Clip 4 [01:08:08] I am queer.

Video Clip 4 [01:08:09] If you don't know how to refer to someone, what term to use or pronoun, listen to them. Listen how I speak about myself and show me and show everyone that you

Video Clip 4 [01:08:23] want to be in this journey.

Video Clip 4 [01:08:25] For a long time, I felt that recognizing who I am made me broken. And I was ashamed of saying it out loud. I had always had those feelings, but it took me about 20 years to

Video Clip 4 [01:08:42] look at myself in the mirror and

John Dehlin [01:08:44] say it out loud. But now I know that I'm not broken. I am perfect the way I am. Gerardo, as a. As a gay graduate of BYU Idaho, how does that make you feel to see that clip that was recorded at byu?

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:04] Yeah, I think I was shocked when I saw that. I think it's awesome. I don't think that would have ever been allowed at byu, Idaho. But I. I'm really happy that it's happening in Provo. And.

Guest [01:09:19] Wow.

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:20] Just really cool. Really interesting. I'm not sure if they would have known about her background or that she has expressed doubt about the family proclamation before on her social media, but just the fact that they allowed her to. To get up there, say that she's queer to everybody. You know, Holland was making a fuss because there was a valedictorian who came out as gay. And here's, like, this young woman's president with someone who's, like, you know, invited by someone who's in. In the highest leadership of the church, and she's telling everybody there that she's queer and how to use pronouns and why to use pronouns. And I think it's awesome.

John Dehlin [01:10:07] Yeah. Like, why did Holland give the musket talk if at byu, they're going to be bringing up queer people on stage, telling the audience to respect their pronouns, and having the queer person say, I love who I am. I'm perfect. God made me this way. Why. Why did Holland give his musket talk at all?

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:27] Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Really interesting.

John Dehlin [01:10:30] Yeah. I mean, but. But Parrardo, does this signify that the church is really. I mean, all these events, does it signify whether it's Shirinian, Charlie Bird, and Ryan's acceptance, this video clip that we just saw, the. The baptism of trans people. Are we seeing a turning point in Mormonism where the Mormon Church is making significant strides in 2024 to. To embrace and accept LGBTQ individuals? Do you think we can say that, or is it too early?

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:05] If I'm honest, I think that these movements are being driven by the members and by. By. By local leaders themselves. And the brethren are just trying to manage everything from above without breaking the church and trying to keep everyone happy and. But at the same time, trying to uphold the doctrine.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:34] I've been able to talk to someone who has had several meetings with a senior apostle, just as recent as probably in the last couple years, where it's pretty obvious that the apostles are. Or at least some of them, in.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:55] In, you know, in. Again, this is a senior apostle, and he seemed to be pretty oblivious about LGBT issues, about their experiences, about why it's important to them that they're gay, about why it's something that can't. They can't change, about the struggles that they.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:13] That they go through. And I mean, that. That just tells me that this is just not. I don't think this is something where the apostles are getting together and and planning on how they're going to reform the church in the next 20 years to accept gay marriage.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:31] I think this is something that is being driven from you, you know, from below. And then the Brethren are just trying to put fires, put out fires and, and manage it without, you know, like I said, breaking the church.

John Dehlin [01:12:50] Yeah. Because, because the way the church has operated historically, they never apologize. They never tell the church members a doctrine's changed, a theology has changed, a policy is significantly changed. They just quietly change and act like it's always been the way that they just change, changed towards. But also. What's that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:12] Someone made this comment, and I, I think that's exactly what I thought when, when I talked to this person who has met with, with this apostle. The Brethren live in a bubble with little in literal interaction with regular members.

John Dehlin [01:13:25] Okay, so if that's true, who's leading the church, Gerardo? Who's making these decisions if it's not the Brethren?

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:32] I think they're, they are making the decisions, but they're not. I don't think it's calculated.

John Dehlin [01:13:38] They don't even know what they're doing.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:41] I think. What do you mean? I mean, give me, give me an example.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] Well, like picking Sherinian as the chief of Chief PR guy or this BYU woman, this, this woman bringing up a queer student in front of at byu. Like, certainly that was approved.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:58] I, I, I don't think the Brethren would have approved that necessarily. I don't know. But as far as Shinian, I think it was something where they would be like, oh, this person really loves queer people. And we want to give the appearance that we like gay people because I, I think they genuinely believe they do. And they thought, oh, this would be a good opportunity. I don't think they're really thinking about the consequences.

John Dehlin [01:14:23] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:23] Of their decisions.

John Dehlin [01:14:24] And they're acting granular in a granular level. They're not thinking about the forest. They're just dealing with tree after tree after tree and not even thinking about the forest.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:34] Yeah, I mean, it's, it's obvious by the November 15th policy.

Guest [01:14:38] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:38] Like, they came out with this egregious policy that was against doctrine that made a lot of members abandon the church and resign their church membership without thinking about the repercussions and, and then doubling down. Right. Like going on, on the media and talking about why it was important that this, that this was a revelation, blah, blah, blah, and then three years later, reversing it at I, I, I, I don't think any of these decisions are calculated.

John Dehlin [01:15:05] I mean, honestly, if I, if I had to characterize the way the church deals with these sorts of things, it's by being duplicitous. It's by talking out of both sides of their mouth, by saying things to please the conservatives and the fundamentalists, like Jeffrey Holland's musket talk, but then doing progressive and conservative thing, progressive and liberal things to keep the progressives and the liberals happy and most importantly, to help protect its image to people outside the. So it's duplicity, like you said earlier, it's duplicity. It's speaking out of both sides of your mouth, trying to be all things to all people and never really taking a firm stance. And they'll do that for another 30 years until same sex marriage is accepted in the temple. And at that point they'll say it's always been that way. What are you talking about?

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:54] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:15:55] We've always loved gay people. I don't know what you're complaining about anyway, that. I think you're right. I think that's what's going on. All right, let's keep going.

Jacob Hansen [01:16:04] What does that even mean? Is the position of the church that we are perfect the way we are? Is it our belief that experiencing same sex attraction or dealing with gender dysphoria is not an issue to be concerned with? I'm not saying that I have all the answers, but does this kind of rhetoric create more clarity or does it cause deeper confusion and division? And why was it the Relief Society's choice to have an activist who does not believe in the Family Proclamation to speak on these issues when President Oaks is out saying the exact opposite?

John Dehlin [01:16:41] Those who do not fully understand the father's loving plan for his children may consider this family Proclamation no more than a changeable statement of policy. In contrast, we affirm that the Family Proclamation, founded on unchangeable doctrine, defines the kind of family relationships where the most important part of our eternal development can occur.

Jacob Hansen [01:17:09] This is why things like pride displays in local chapels cause so much confusion. It also confuses members when the church's official university, byu, is handing out gay pride and pride pronoun gear to its students. It's confusing for students at the church's university to sit in on a lecture where professors are positing the radical idea that maybe Joseph and Jesus were gay

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [01:17:36] and they noticed something really powerful about the figure, the literary figure that's being developed and that is he shows signs of being gay.

Video Clip 5 [01:17:46] What they're doing is gendering the Savior. They are saying that the person that

Video Clip 5 [01:17:51] delivers US has a more effeminate view of the world. We do see one interesting parallel in the Jesus story and then here in the, in the, in the Joseph story. And that is a character that's called, quote, beloved. And obviously this is something to think through. What does this mean to have a

Video Clip 5 [01:18:13] disciple who's a very close male affiliate

Video Clip 5 [01:18:17] and he's someone loved by Jesus?

Video Clip 5 [01:18:20] It is also confusing when we are hearing professors at the Church's universities pray to Heavenly Mother along with Heavenly Father. Our opening prayer today will be offered

Video Clip 5 [01:18:30] by Dr. Rachel Gianni Abbott. Our Heavenly parents, thank you for this new day to live life and learn lessons. And our Heavenly parents, thank you for this new day to live.

Jacob Hansen [01:18:44] Honestly, I wish I did not have more examples, but I have many, many more.

John Dehlin [01:18:50] I mean, Gerardo, at this point, he's going on this litany. It looks like he's almost crying there. It looks like his eyes are red and that he's almost crying, going on this litany of all these decisions the Church is making. And I don't at the sake of being repetitive. First of all, what do you think about those changes you're seeing? How do they make you feel? And then what do you have to say about Jacob and how he's handling it?

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:19] Again, I think, I think these are not necessarily changes that are coming from the top, other than maybe not doing anything to go after these professors. Right. Because the church really well could go and, and discipline these professors for praying to the Heavenly parents or for claiming on a podcast or teaching in a podcast that Jesus and Joseph were gay. But these are BYU professors, right. And the Church is not doing anything to them. So, I mean, we do know, John, though, that, that the church has doubled down a little bit on the questions that they're asking BYU professors specifically regarding same sex marriage and, and the doctor, the doctrines of, of gender. So I don't know. I, I again, I think that what the only solution the brethren have is try to put out the fires wherever they appear. It's obviously not working.

Guest [01:20:15] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:16] The membership is still obviously going, going in the progressive side pretty rapidly. But what do you think?

John Dehlin [01:20:27] Yeah, yeah, I think so. I've got a, I've got a viewer who's watching a friend of mine who gave me permission to share this. I'm trying to decide if there are parts of it that need to be redacted, but basically what it is, it's a first presidency letter that, that is giving approval, I believe, for a transgender individual to be baptized. It's a little bit fuzzy, but it does have the. It does have the signature of the First Presidency. So there you can see it. It's. It looks like that's 5-28-ish. 2019. It's really hard to read. It's on church letterhead. It's in the Ohio Cincinnati Mission.

John Dehlin [01:21:14] And my understanding is if I could read that more clearly, maybe I'll try and get it translated. But. But. But my understanding is this is an example of a letter from five years ago now where the First Presidency approved a transgender baptism. So I just. That's the second instance that I've heard of and I just wanted to share it. Yeah, because it's receipts. You know what I mean?

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:38] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:21:40] For sure.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:40] I wonder what Jacob Hansen think about. Thinks about that letter.

John Dehlin [01:21:44] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not a mole. If the First Presidency is doing it right, they're signing the letter right. I mean, he's got to apostatize or change his beliefs, you know? Yeah, keep going.

Jacob Hansen [01:21:57] I will just offer one more area that deeply confuses me, and it is why nothing happens to members of the church who publish books like Queer Mormon Theology, a book by Blair Ostler, which accuses the church of homophobia and actively advocates for. For activism against the church in order to get it to embrace queer polygamy in its temples.

▶ Video Clip 6

Video Clip 6 [01:22:22] The text beautifully and prophetically states, disability, death or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed. This sentence explicitly states that there are other circumstances which require individual adaptation.

Video Clip 6 [01:22:40] Other circumstances could also include a trans woman married to a cisgender woman.

Video Clip 6 [01:22:45] The trans woman may have identified as a man prior to her transition, but after she transitions, the couple's biological offspring could have two mothers.

Video Clip 6 [01:22:54] Think of it.

Video Clip 6 [01:22:55] Trans women show us that there are ways a lesbian couple can have their own biological offspring.

Video Clip 6 [01:23:01] Other circumstances could include a mixed orientation

Video Clip 6 [01:23:04] marriage of an asexual man and heterosexual woman who is impregnated by a sperm donor.

Video Clip 6 [01:23:10] Depending on the anatomy of the persons

Video Clip 6 [01:23:11] involved, a transgender man and a cisgender

Video Clip 6 [01:23:14] man can already reproduce their own biological offspring together. Transgender men who desire fatherhood as gestational

Video Clip 6 [01:23:22] dads can even nurse their babies in a practice called chest feeding.

Video Clip 6 [01:23:26] Eventually, uterus transplants may allow transgender women to gestate children too. It seems fitting for individuals who were

Video Clip 6 [01:23:34] assigned male at birth to aspire to motherhood.

Video Clip 6 [01:23:37] When latter day apostles teach, the highest and noblest work in this life is that of a mother.

Hansen's Call for Discipline of LGBTQ Members

Jacob Hansen [01:23:43] Does the Church no longer excommunicate people for open and flagrant apostasy like this? And before you.

John Dehlin [01:23:50] I mean, I. I think we should ask that question about Jacob Hansen. Right?

Guest [01:23:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:55] How is he so clueless that he's not realizing that he's one of the types of people that the church appears to no longer be excommunicating. Right. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:06] Right.

John Dehlin [01:24:06] But. But having been on the. On the side, having been on the other side of the table, having been excommunicated, I have to say, it's disgusting to see a church member who claims to be a follower and a believer in Christ to be calling on the excommunication of members knowing personally how violent and disturbing and barbaric and medieval and. And frankly traumatizing the entire excommunication process is. It's revolting and disgusting. Having been through that myself with my family, to see Jacob, like, furiously calling on the excommunication of his fellow members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. How did. How do you feel about that, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:59] Yeah, no, I agree. I think I agree for sure. I just wanted as. As. As he was playing those quotes from. From the book, from Blair Ostler's book, I. I remembered that my. My friend who has met with this senior apostle was bringing up some of these. Some of these scenarios to the apostle, and it was like he said, like he was. Like his mind was exploding. Like, he had never thought about, you know, that that surrogacy was an option for a gay couple or that that a lesbian couple could have. Could have a baby with artificial insemination. Like, it's like he had never, ever considered that. And, you know, it was kind of crazy. But, yeah, on the one hand, it

John Dehlin [01:25:51] makes all the sense in the world because they're nonogenarians, 90 plus years old. They were born, like, pre World War II. On the other hand, it just makes you wonder who's running the church, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:02] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:03] Who's running the church if it's not the church leaders? You know, I just want to hear Jacob answer that question.

Jacob Hansen [01:26:09] I think this is some fringe book. Just know that noted LDS author and scholar Patrick Mason has done an entire podcast praising the book on the foyer.

John Dehlin [01:26:21] Blair Ostler's book is called Queer Mormon Theology, An Introduction, and Taylor Petrie's is called Tabernacles of Clay, Sexuality and Gender in Modern Mormonism. They would make great Christmas gifts for

Guest [01:26:34] all the people on your list.

Jacob Hansen [01:26:35] Stocking stuffers.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:36] That's what all the kids want this year.

Jacob Hansen [01:26:38] Additionally, Bishop Ostler, who is a. I

John Dehlin [01:26:41] just want to say I got a. I love Patrick Mason. It's so Good to see him there. It's so good to see the progressives finally winning in the church. It makes my heart sing because these are kind, good hearted people versus this sort of vile, violent, bigoted rhetoric that we're seeing from the people like Jacob Hansen.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:05] Yeah, I agree.

John Dehlin [01:27:06] Yeah.

Jacob Hansen [01:27:08] Popular Fireside speaker and Deseret book author had Blair on his very popular podcast four separate times, including one episode totally dedicated to promoting her book and looking for ways to get her ideas into the hands of church educators.

Guest [01:27:27] And every time Blair comes on, I learn something and she has great insights. And so she has written a book. And we both felt it makes sense for Blair to come back on the podcast and talk about her book. Blair is somebody I deeply admire, respect, and really look up to. When I stepped in this space, Blair and her husband were and continue to be kind of mentors to me, a safe place for me as I was trying to figure out this space. I'd love to have you talk to seminary teachers and institute teachers. You're talking to that group anyway. That's a group because they're engaging with younger Latter Day Saints. This topic is coming up probably more than traditional congregations, although I don't want to say that's entirely true, but that's my experience, and they're looking for content.

Jacob Hansen [01:28:18] Why would the church publish Bishop Osler's books when they contain ideas like these?

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:25] While Nate is a transgender man, also known as female to male, or ftm, we can see him just as a man. Our son came out to us as

John Dehlin [01:28:35] transgender at age 3.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:37] I feel blessed that this was the case, as I have never thought that he was choosing this. Straight kids are never told that they should hold off on putting a label on themselves. This is part of how the shame, the awareness of being broken or wrong begins. Yes, they know they are LGBTQ at a young age.

John Dehlin [01:28:59] These precious young children also carry, to

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:03] varying degrees, the burden of hiding that identity. Heavenly Father told me that she, my underage daughter, was going to start hormones one way or another, and I needed to help her. So she got them from a legitimate doctor.

John Dehlin [01:29:19] Keep in mind, really quickly, you know, Jacob asks, why is the church allowing these books to be published? I would love to hear him answer the question.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:31] Yes, I agree.

John Dehlin [01:29:33] Right. I want to hear his answer. What does he think is going on? I hope he shares that. Jacob Hansen, I'm. I'm calling you out right now. Answer your own questions. I want to hear Jacob Hansen, what you think is going on? Why was Tim Ballard censured? Why is the church allowing Patrick Mason, such a high profile. Why is the church supporting Richard Osler? Why is the church not excommunicating Charlie Bird? I want to hear your opinion, Jacob Hansen. I want to hear what you think. Answer your own questions. Tell us what your conspiracy theory is about what's going on. I'm dying to hear it. Okay. Biking Bandit asks, does Jacob Hansen have a calling? Just curious. I think that's a really great question.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:23] He must have pretty high up calling because he said he was part of a disciplinary council. Just this a couple weeks ago, of a gay man.

John Dehlin [01:30:30] So he's probably in a bishopric, right?

Guest [01:30:32] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:33] Or a sick presidency.

John Dehlin [01:30:35] Yeah. Suzanne Enright says people like this dude Jacob are so prevalent in our area here in Kansas. And part of the reason I had to step away from the church. This rhetoric is so harmful, especially to the youth. And that's what I'm trying to say is that the church is losing its hemorrhaging members in droves. The more that the church becomes polarized and blowhards like Jacob Hansen keeps speaking up in ward meetings, they're going to drive out the liberals and the progressives and even just the moderates, and the church is going to continue to have disaffection. That's why I'm confused. Mormon Church. Why are you not punishing people like Jacob Hansen?

John Dehlin [01:31:14] You know, I'm. I. I don't know. I'm curious. I'm. That's. That's what I want to see in terms of a disciplinary council, if there's going to be one. I'd rather there not be disciplinary councils, but if there is going to be one, I'd much rather see Jacob Hansen than. Than Bl. You know, than Blair Osler or. Or Richard Osler. Right.

Guest [01:31:35] Yeah.

Jacob Hansen [01:31:36] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:31:36] Or Patrick Mason. Heaven forbid. I'm sorry, I'm.

Jacob Hansen [01:31:41] So this content is on the shelf at your local Deseret book. I actually went to a Deseret bookstore to see if the book was there and to ask if they were aware about the content of the book. And when the manager came out to talk to me, she was wearing a rainbow pin under her Deseret Book name tag. Seriously, like, I was just thinking, what is going on? Again, as I said, I am not here to give the answers. I am here to express my deep confusion and to help so many others that I know feel this way realize that they're not alone. The reality is that the confusion has become so deep that even faithful members who sustain the prophets are saying things like this.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:30] And. And. And.

John Dehlin [01:32:31] Yeah, finish. Is Gay marriage on the table. So for the future.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:40] Okay, now hold on a second.

John Dehlin [01:32:42] This is where the church wants to go.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:43] It is a genuine question.

John Dehlin [01:32:45] I proposed a question on Twitter. People got mad at me for asking.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:47] But it's very relevant to what's happening today. If this is the future and this

John Dehlin [01:32:51] is the direction the church has said, hey, in 20 years, we.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:54] We're going to be a.

John Dehlin [01:32:54] We're going to be a church that allows gay marriage. This is the person you'd hire.

Jacob Hansen [01:32:58] So if I.

John Dehlin [01:32:59] If I understand you, we haven't made a choice as.

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:01] As a professional event coordinator that's done a really good job making huge parties happen and so on and so forth

John Dehlin [01:33:07] with thousands of people. You understand that there's a Runway of

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:10] advertising that has to get done for the big event.

John Dehlin [01:33:12] And you're saying you kind of.

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:14] You sense the, The.

John Dehlin [01:33:16] The road getting paved for a major announcement. If they were going to make a major announcement on a change on a

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:25] view that's a little bit more secular on gay marriage, that this is the

John Dehlin [01:33:27] move to take it. I'm.

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:29] I'm not coping here, guys.

John Dehlin [01:33:30] I'm just saying I see what's there, and I'm just saying it walks like a duck, talks like a duck. It's probably a duck. I just have to say, like, I, I. When I started Mormon stories podcast in 2005, the whole purpose was to help keep people of the church. So I was acting as an apologist. And then I got. I saw so much pain, death, suicide, divorce, so much carnage that eventually I started being really critical of the church. I stopped defending the church, and I got excommunicated. Then Bill Real steps up and takes my place and starts podcasting, saying, let's be faithful. And there was this joke.

John Dehlin [01:34:14] As Bill Real is John Dehlin once was, and as John Dehlin is Bill Real may become. And. And look at it. Look at it. We're seeing right now that the. That the apologists are going after each other. That as somebody grabbed this clip for Twitter, right? As Jacob Hansen is Kwaku once was. And as Jacob Hansen, you know, and as Cueco is Jacob Hansen someday will become. Right? These guys are all going down the same path of apostasy, right? And now they're going at each other. I mean, I don't want to say it's fun because lives are at stake here, but it's really weird to see Jacob Hansen attacking Kwaku in the same decade, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:56] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:34:58] What do you think?

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:01] Yeah, definitely. Interesting. I mean, he's calling him out for, you know, his. His opinion and telling, like, do you really support. Like, telling him, asking if you actually supports the Brethren?

John Dehlin [01:35:16] Yeah, like, I want to just. I want to see how this ends, you know? And if Kwaku and Cardin respond, I think they've had Jacob on their podcast, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:26] Yeah. All right. Let's see what he has to say.

Jacob Hansen [01:35:31] See how confused we all are, or is he right? I would not be surprised if 40%, almost half of the membership, agree with Kwaku. They agree and think that it's only a matter of time until the church abandons its current doctrines on gender and marriage. But then we have our prophet telling us marriage between a man and a

John Dehlin [01:35:57] woman is fundamental to the Lord's doctrine and crucial to God's eternal plan. God's marriage pattern cannot be abused, misunderstood, or misconstrued. All we are to emulate our Savior's kindness and compassion. Did Nelson say that? That God's doctrine cannot be misunderstood or confused?

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:21] Yeah, he did a lot of stuff.

John Dehlin [01:36:26] If there were ever an unprophetic thing to have been said, Russell. And Russell Nelson just said it. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:33] I think this is the same talk where he says that the definition of marriage between a man and a woman has never changed.

John Dehlin [01:36:43] Says a man married to two women. Yeah. Russell Nelson is literally married to two women. One's passed on, but one's alive, and he'll be with both of them in the hereafter. And he's saying marriage has always been one man and one woman.

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:59] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:37:01] You can't make this up. You can't write this humor.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:08] I agree. I agree.

John Dehlin [01:37:12] We are to value the rights and feelings of all of God's children. We cannot change his doctrine. It is not ours to change. His doctrine is ours to save, study, understand, and uphold.

Jacob Hansen [01:37:28] So here is where I stand. I believe President Nelson. I sustain him. And I am deeply, deeply confused why even leaders in the church are giving such mixed signals. Perhaps you are as well. Perhaps this video has helped sum up what you have already been feeling. I am not a believer in activism against the church, but I am a believer in members counseling together with each other in support of our prophet and his declarations about the doctrine of marriage and the family. If this matter is important and concerning to you and you are confused by things that are going on in the church, I would strongly encourage you to speak about it with your prayer priesthood leaders and perhaps share this video with them if it accurately sums up your own feelings that perhaps you struggle to articulate.

John Dehlin [01:38:24] Okay. Let me get this straight. He's not an activist. He doesn't believe in activism. But he's. But he's broadcasting his concerns to the world and calling on all confused members that he's helping to spread the confusion. He's calling on all of them to to go speak with their priesthood leaders. What is that called, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:48] Activism.

John Dehlin [01:38:52] He thinks that if he just says not activism that somehow it's not activism if he just says it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:00] Yeah, yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:39:02] It's like words don't mean what they actually mean. It's like a horse is a taper. Right? Yep.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:09] Yeah, I agree.

Jacob Hansen [01:39:14] To My dear priesthood leaders, I love you. I know because I've been there myself. I know that you guys have had the incredible challenge of ministering to those who struggle with same gender attraction and gender dysphoria. I personally applaud the church's efforts to look to embrace those who struggle with these things.

Jacob Hansen [01:39:41] But I think we all need to self reflect. Are we also confused about the mixed messaging coming from the church Somewhere in our hearts? Do we think perhaps change is coming and it's just a matter of time? If you find yourself confused, perhaps you too can share this video and ask for counsel from your leaders.

Jacob Hansen [01:40:07] I am a big believer in counseling within the church and through the priesthood channels. I hope that if nothing else, this video has shown that as Elder Oaks talked about, we have a major problem in the church with confusion. I am here essentially to echo what Elder Oaks has said. This problem is big and it's only growing. And unless church leadership creates clarity for members, this confusion will continue and people will lose faith that the church actually believes the doctrines it proclaims.

Jacob Hansen [01:40:43] Actions speak louder than words sometimes. Now please do not take this video in the wrong way. I don't claim to have the answers I feel fully support the brethren. I encourage everyone to go to their priesthood leaders to talk about their concerns around this issue.

Jacob Hansen [01:41:03] I am here in all sincerity trying to bring awareness to the very real struggle of faithful members who are confused. To the leaders, I say that we need your help. We need your guidance. We sustain you. To those watching this video, please sustain the brethren. Work within the proper priesthood channels to help create clarity within you and within your stewardship as you echo the words of our prophet on these subjects. May the Spirit of the Lord guide us as we seek to do this and build his kingdom.

Final Thoughts on Hansen and Church Confusion

John Dehlin [01:41:45] There are so many.

Jacob Hansen [01:41:46] So do you enjoy the content here on Thought?

John Dehlin [01:41:48] There's so many good comments that are coming in. I wish I could read them all. I'LL just read a few of them. You know, Jacob is the only one who's confused here. Joan of Arc writes he'll take this video down. Mark my words. That's Joan D'. Arc. DeLuli writes, this isn't a petition, but will you sign this paper in support of my campaign? Like, just mocking the idea that he's not an activist. Shannon M. Right, you're confused, Jacob, because you're being lied to by the leaders. That's true. Elder Nelson is being duplicitous. So is Oaks, and he's confused for a reason. A big thanks to Brian Paul Laverdi for the super chat. Yeah, there's so many good comments that are coming in. Gerardo, what, what do you want to share?

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:40] Well, my final thoughts are just. I agree with Jacob the confused. The confusion is there. We've talked about it for a long time. I think Greg Prince used to say that the LGBT issues in the church have been like a roller coaster.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:57] Sometimes things look like they're getting better as far as accepting. And then something like the November 15th policy comes right. And, and destroys it all. And, and then it gets reversed and then we have, you know, just lots of different things, like transgender people being allowed to get baptized in the church, same sex married couples embracing their words. Like, it's definitely been a roller coaster. I think it will keep being a roller coaster. Like I said, I think it's being driven by, by the local members.

Gerardo Sumano [01:43:35] And I think the only thing the brethren can do is just put up fires where they can and, and try to be, try to tell, depending on what audience they're speaking to, you know, try to say what they think the audience needs to hear, which is kind of what they've been doing. Right? But yeah,

John Dehlin [01:44:00] yeah, I'll just add Jacob Hansen, that, you know, you're so confident, you're so strident on your YouTube channel and on the Internet. You talk as though you've like, been around for 12 minutes and like you haven't been paying attention and you don't know anything about your church's history for the past one or two centuries. Like, oh my gosh, the church is making a change. Have you heard of dynastic ceilings that men used to be sealed to men in the early years of the church? Have you, have you, you know, did you, have you heard of the 1890 manifesto where polygamy was ended? And then did you know that for the next 10 or 15 years?

John Dehlin [01:44:42] Have you ever heard of post manifesto polygamy? Did you know that after the church Told the world that it was stopping polygamy, that it kept practicing it for another 15 years until they had to issue a second manifesto. Like, have you ever heard of your own history? Do you not realize that the First Presidency, the Mormon Church First Presidency, signed multiple doctrinal statements saying that the curse of Cain and the priesthood ban on black members was doctrine until it reversed it in 1978 and then later said it was just a policy change and was never doctrine to begin with. Have you heard of the 2015 exclusion policy that was then reversed three or four years later?

John Dehlin [01:45:26] Like, are you not paying attention at all? You're acting like the church has never changed. What you're really doing is you're showing egregious ignorance as to the history and the reality of your own church. And if you were such a bigoted jerk in the way you treat people, I would want to be kind and compassionate with you. But you're so offensive and heinous in, in your level of discourse that it's really hard to have compassion for you. So what I will ask is educate yourself, Jacob, and let me, let me do you a little favor, okay? Go to Mormon Stories podcast, Jacob Hansen, and watch some episodes and I'll just give you a little recommendation on a couple episodes you could watch.

John Dehlin [01:46:16] Watch the episode with Dusty Johns. Watch the episode with Lori Lee Hall. Watch the episode with Elizabeth Grimshaw. Watch the episode with with Gerardo's friends Douglas, Douglas and Brennan. Right? Watch our episodes on the November 2000 the number November 2015 policy and its reversal. Watch our interviews with Kyle Ashworth, who Go, go read Kyle Ashworth's Was it on the Record?

John Dehlin [01:46:49] PDF where he gives the history of the Mormon Church changing its policies, changing its treatment of LGBTQ individuals. Become informed. Learn about blood atonement that was, you know, doctrine until it was taken away. Go learn about the Adam God theory that was doctored until it was taken away. Learn about the Mormon Church's temple ceremony that used to be eight or nine hours long and used to have blood oaths where you slit your throat before they took that out, like at the church. The Mormon Church, if it's anything, it's been changing its doctrine and policies consistently for two centuries. So learn a little bit about your own history before you go on your bigoted rants that are hurtful, that only display your ignorance as to the church's history and the way the brethren have always behaved.

John Dehlin [01:47:40] Okay? That's how I feel. Jacob Hansen, I invite you to come on Mormon Stories and we'll have a conversation. And I promise to treat you respectfully. And mostly I, I want to hear how your faith evolves, because I don't think the church long term is going to be moving in your direction. I think the church is actually. You know, Martin Luther King Jr. Once said that the, The. The arc of history is long and it bends towards justice. And unfortunately for you, Jacob Hansen, even the Mormon Church's history bends towards justice. Maybe it's always 30 years after the fact. Maybe it's always 30 years after the rest of the civilized world.

John Dehlin [01:48:20] And maybe it's always in response to the same activism that it decries. But make no mistake, Jacob Hansen, the church eventually gets it right after it excommunicates the activists who showed it the way. That's always the way it's been. It's never not been that way. And that's the way it's going. So, Jacob Hansen, either stay on the wrong side of history and apostatize from the church or continue suffering, or join the rest of us in the civilized, humane world of kindness and compassion and acceptance of the marginalized and the people that Jesus Christ himself came to administer to. That's my invitation to you, Jacob Hansen.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:09] That was a good rant.

John Dehlin [01:49:11] Was that, was that. Did, Did Caffeinated John just reappear on Mormon stories?

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:17] He did, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:18] I apologize. I. That, that was. Something came over me that was not planned.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:24] Yes, well, I mean, yeah, it's. It's all true, John. It's all true.

John Dehlin [01:49:37] It's kind of. I mean, it is a little fun, right? I mean, the, The. The pain and the suffering of the marginalized is horrific and sad. But as, as you and I have been doing this for a long time, I was excommunicated for this stuff. It's nice to see 10 or 20 years or 30 or 40 years. It's nice to see the Church come around. I wish they would apologize to the couples they've excommunicated for same sex marriage, to the activists that, that had the courage to speak out and show the church the way. I wish the church had the courage and the dignity and the, and the grace to apologize to the people it's punished and excommunicated that, that actually we're on the right side of history.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:17] Yeah, I agree. I agree.

John Dehlin [01:50:20] Sorry, Gerardo. Keep going. I'm. I need to be quiet and let you talk.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:23] Oh, this is great. Well, I kind of gave my final thoughts, but okay. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, it's. And it's not with. Just with LGBT issues. Right it's like with women, with black

John Dehlin [01:50:36] people, people of color.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:38] Yeah. It's with

John Dehlin [01:50:42] people who love science intellectuals, like people who care about truth. Right. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:47] Yeah. Yep. September 6th.

Guest [01:50:49] Right?

John Dehlin [01:50:51] There's so many people. M. Gunter writes, the ark of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. The principle guides me in my work and research. Yeah, that's. I think that's the actual quote of Martin Luther King, Jr. Yeah. Well, Gerardo, you're a legend, and. And people are here for you, so thank you for making today happen.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:10] Well, thank you. Thank you. I think it was a good episode. I think this is really important to highlight. And like we said, we kind of agreed with Jacob as far as. Well, yeah, there is definitely confusion.

John Dehlin [01:51:23] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:23] Like, there's definitely duplicitous statements being said over the pulpit versus what's happening in the words and stakes or at byu. So, yeah, it's all great to highlight it because hopefully the church will keep bending in the right direction.

John Dehlin [01:51:44] They will. They'll get it right eventually. They often do. And, Jacob Hansen, when you're either excommunicated or you apostatize from the church, I hope I welcome you to come tell your story on Mormon Stories podcast. We'd love to have you.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:58] That'll be awesome.

John Dehlin [01:51:59] All right. Thanks, Gerardo. You're the best.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:01] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:52:03] And, yeah, thanks to Julia and Maven in Brooklyn for. For all they do to make this possible. And thanks to our board and thanks to all of you. Thanks to our donors who donate to make Mormon Stories podcast possible. Your monthly donations allow this to continue. Please go to YouTube and subscribe. Please follow us and like us. Click the bell.

John Dehlin [01:52:23] Please share this episode. You can also subscribe and follow us on Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram. Please become a monthly donor. That's how we afford to do what we do. And. And, yeah, be. Be kind to each other and be good to each other and, you know, give us your feedback. Feel free to comment on these episodes. We. We try to read every comment that's made. Feel free to email us. I do apologize for getting so angry.

John Dehlin [01:52:51] I don't know. Jesus got angry, so I. I guess I'm trying to be like Jesus today, but, uh. But I. I hope I haven't been offensive or unkind. Hopefully you can be spirited and not unkind and mean. But if I've. If I failed, I apologize.

John Dehlin [01:53:06] It's just because I. This stuff touches me personally anyway, and I hate bullies. You guys take care, and we'll have more on this in the coming days. Weeks and months. Love you guys. And we'll see all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.