Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Tiny bit of an overview. For over a decade on Mormon Stories, we've covered that the Mormon Church has a long, long history of excommunicating same sex married couples. And we've interviewed four or five of them on Mormon Stories podcast alone. Latter Gay Stories podcast has covered that as well. It's just been the long standing policy of the church, Mormon Church, that when they find out you got same sex married, you're toast, you're excommunicated. Well, recently we've been able to confirm through intelligence and through sources that we know of at least five or six legally same sex married couples who are actively attending their Mormon wards.

John Dehlin [00:00:44] They are taking the sacrament. At least some of them have callings. And it's known by their bishop and stake president that this is happening. And we think it's really important news. And so we're cautiously celebrating this really important moment in Mormon history. And joining us to discuss first is Kyle Ashworth of Latter Gay Stories. Hey, Kyle.

Welcoming the Panelists and Latter Gay Stories

Kyle Ashworth [00:01:09] Hey, John. Thank you for having us. Thank you for inviting the Latter Gay Stories audience and allowing us to participate in what I think is also something that is worth talking about. As you have mentioned, we've discussed this for a lot of years. This is kind of the point of advocacy, right. Where we, from a grassroots level, begin to try to induce change within an organization that has some room and some. Some opportunities for change. And, and now if it's happening, let's. Let's talk about it. Let's have a conversation.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] Absolutely. For those who don't know Lettergate Stories, you want to tell them what that is?

Kyle Ashworth [00:01:39] Yeah. Letter Gay Stories is the longest running LGBTQ podcast probably in the history of the world. Started in 2012, specifically with the angle of LGBTQ LDS, that intersection of LGBTQ Avenue and LDS Street. Just. We continue to share individual stories to help change the narrative and help bring better understanding to the LDS community, specifically on LGBTQ topics. So this is right up our wheelhouse. And this is exactly the type of change and the type of conversation that our audience is welcoming, but also wanting to better understand and wanting to be a part of.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] Absolutely.

Kyle Ashworth [00:02:21] Conversation wise.

John Dehlin [00:02:22] All right, well, thanks for joining us, Kyle. Also joining us today is my partner in truth and righteousness, Gerardo Sumano. Hey, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:30] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] Thanks for joining us.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:31] Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [00:02:32] You're kind of producing this episode, right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:34] Yes, yeah, yeah, it's been. Yeah. Pretty interesting. And we'll be talking about where we obtain the intelligence and stuff.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] So, yeah, be fun. And I. It's probably worth mentioning that you and I. And I don't remember if Kyle. Kyle wasn't in that episode. We talked about Charlie Bird and Ben Shalotti a couple years ago on a Mormon Stories episode.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:54] Yeah, we've done actually a couple episodes I had forgotten about. We did one we call the Mormon Reformation, where we specifically talked about Charlie and Ben and others. Basically just a history of the Mormon Church and advocates, or what would you call them? Like just kind of gay advocates, gay poster children for the church and how the progression has happened throughout the years. And then we did another one called the Gay Mormon Rescue or something like that where like Ben and Charlie went on a fireside that was pretty interesting. And commented on. On their questions and answers section of that.

John Dehlin [00:03:30] Yeah. And just to hit it right off the bat, like, we're not trying to like, dox these guys. We're not trying to harm them. We're not even criticizing them or calling them out. What would you say our intention is, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:42] Well, I think. I think it's important to celebrate right what's happening. And one of my intentions would be that if anyone is being treated differently in their word or stakes, you know, they can point their local leadership to this episode. But like, there's bishops and stake presidents out there who are embracing gay same sex married couples. So I think everyone should be getting the same treatment.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:04:08] And with the latter gay stories, audience, like, we've been intimately involved in these stories because we share them. And so the idea of seeing a random couple receive a calling who is married isn't completely foreign to our audience. But I think the important part of an episode like this is that now probably one of Mormonism's most high, the highest profile gay married couple is also following suit. And that's what I think is big. That's what I think we should talk about. Because as we discussed this kind of off the air, at what point do you say the cat has now left the bag and Pandora's box is open? And what do you do with that? And how do you. I mean, how do you put this all back in? For the Mormon Church, this really kind of is a watershed moment. This is big.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] It really is. And the final panelist that we have today is a friend of mine and probably a friend to many of you, Jillian Orr. Hey, Jillian.

Jillian Orr [00:05:04] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:05:05] Tell everybody who you are and why you're so cool.

Jillian Orr [00:05:09] Like ice cream sandwiches.

Kyle Ashworth [00:05:11] It's the haircut.

Guest [00:05:12] That's true.

Jillian Orr [00:05:13] It's a given. That's why I got it. I am the BYU graduate that had the rainbow flag sewn on the inside of my gown when I graduated BYU about two years ago. So that's kind of my thing. It's kind of what I'm known for.

John Dehlin [00:05:24] And then you and I were about to be known for appearing on an amazing YouTube channel called Jubilee.

Jillian Orr [00:05:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] There's a show called Middle Ground. Do you want to tell everybody what's gonna happen soon?

Jillian Orr [00:05:35] Oh, my gosh, I'm so stoked. This Sunday Pacific Time, 9am Jubilee is going to be releasing a panel that we did, Middle Ground, where it was Mormons versus ex Mormons. John and I were on one side of the panel, and then we were on the Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] No, just kidding.

Jillian Orr [00:05:50] Swapping sides. Undercover. Yeah. We had one side with us and a couple other. A couple other friends and then some. We had Carden and Kwaku on the other side. Some apologists as well as some other individuals where we discussed some pretty heavy topics, some pretty, you know, mainstream concerns of masturbation or doctrine changing. Which kind of.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] Or is the Mormon Church a cult?

Jillian Orr [00:06:14] Or is it a cult? Or are they welcoming to the LGBTQ community? And so we had a big discussion that's gonna be released, and I'm stoked for it. I'm holding out, just holding out till I have the watch party in the evening, see if I can make it.

John Dehlin [00:06:25] But I'm excited, so check it out, everyone. All right, so that's gonna be what we're gonna talk about today, and I think it makes sense also, you know, we've known about Charlie and Ryan for months. Kyle, were you at their wedding?

Charlie Bird and Ryan Jones's Wedding Goes Viral

Kyle Ashworth [00:06:39] No, I was. We were out of town. But, yeah, the wedding happened in August, so what?

Gerardo Sumano [00:06:47] Oh, should we say that Jillian is, like, she's representing most Mormons, and

Jillian Orr [00:06:55] because I knew they were engaged.

John Dehlin [00:06:56] Did you get an invite? Okay.

Jillian Orr [00:06:58] We were getting Kyle tell everyone who

John Dehlin [00:06:59] Charlie Bird is and who doesn't know.

Kyle Ashworth [00:07:02] Yeah. So just. So Charlie's rise or claim to fame really came as maybe two secrets. It's the tale of two secrets. One, he was a closeted Latter Day Saint student at byu, or even just a closeted Latter Day Saint who then also became Cosmo the Cougar while he was.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] Which is BYU's mascot.

Kyle Ashworth [00:07:22] BYU's mascot. And critically acclaimed. I mean, he. He won a lot of awards, a lot of attention. I think ESPN's number one mascot.

Jillian Orr [00:07:29] ESPN. He was a big name.

Kyle Ashworth [00:07:30] So it was a big name. And here he was not only hiding behind a mask as Cosmo the Cougar, but he also was hiding his sexual orientation as well. He was gay and kind of navigating that world as well. I knew Charlie kind of as a baby gay, involved in some really small, low key LGBTQ Sunday schools that we would do, that he attended and just kind of watched him grow, kind of gain some strength, and then in time, he was able to find some footing, advocating for kind of some change within the church, but also just better understanding the LGBTQ experience, which then leads.

Kyle Ashworth [00:08:08] Led to multiple firesides and opportunities to speak and some books and. And just some notoriety within Mormon circles. Then I think it also becomes somewhat problematic. It. The fame also brings with it a lot of criticism and a lot of opinions and people telling you how to live your life. And I think each of us with platforms understand that, and we. We recognize how difficult that can become because everybody is a Monday morning quarterback. Everybody tells you how you should live your life. And that stress and that pain also hasn't avoided Charlie's experience either. And so I think maybe one of my goals is also to, as we discussed earlier, to give grace where grace is necessary and also talk candidly about some of the interesting and difficult parts of this journey as well.

Kyle Ashworth [00:08:53] Because I think Charlie has also kind of through this process as well, done some harm in addition to some good. I think we're all probably guilty of that. And so this is interesting mainly. And as we've discussed this, he has a gigantic platform in this space as being a gay Mormon. And what do you do with that? When it now appears that the church is saying that's okay and. And they're providing pathways for that. That's really why Charlie is relevant.

John Dehlin [00:09:24] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:24] Can I give a little bit of a backstory really quick?

John Dehlin [00:09:26] You. You attended Charlie and Ryan's wedding when?

Kyle Ashworth [00:09:30] No, no, no, I was not.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] Oh, you were not?

Kyle Ashworth [00:09:31] We were out of town.

John Dehlin [00:09:32] But they got married when?

Kyle Ashworth [00:09:33] They got married in August at the state capitol.

John Dehlin [00:09:35] August of 2023.

Kyle Ashworth [00:09:36] 2023.

John Dehlin [00:09:37] Okay. So they've been married for six months.

Jillian Orr [00:09:39] Six.

Kyle Ashworth [00:09:40] Seven months.

John Dehlin [00:09:40] Six. Seven months. Okay.

Kyle Ashworth [00:09:41] Yeah. And it was. It was. It wasn't kept low key. I mean, it was a big party. But I think the idea is to kind of harness the fame of this and, and kind of the. So they wanted to do a YouTube video, like a multi series YouTube channel. They wanted to really, like, ride the coattails of the influencer world by releasing just little tidbits. So the fact that he is married and it's a big deal may come as a shock to some like Julian.

John Dehlin [00:10:07] Why are Gerardo and Jillian laughing?

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:09] Well, I'm laughing because Jillian's kind of shocked that this is happening.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] Do you know Charlie? Were you at BYU when he was there?

Jillian Orr [00:10:18] Yeah, we actually graduated at the same time. So when I graduated with my gown, he was also graduating with his master's. And so that's when we had connected and we chit chatted and we've run into each other on and off, and we kind of know what we both do and what we were both doing at the time, but I was not invited.

John Dehlin [00:10:34] So. You're shocked.

Jillian Orr [00:10:35] I am shocked. I didn't know.

John Dehlin [00:10:37] I had no idea.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:38] Well, let me say that I'm really happy that you know him, because

Jillian Orr [00:10:42] I

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:43] didn't know that when we talked about inviting you to the panel, but now I'm relieved that at least one person. Well, I guess you do also know him in person, but.

Jillian Orr [00:10:54] Well, he knew about the wedding and it was a party, apparently.

Guest 2 [00:10:58] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:58] Huge party.

Kyle Ashworth [00:10:59] Even. Even cos this is the interesting. Cosmo danced at the wedding too, which I thought that could be problematic for the church, but.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] You mean the. The current BYU Cosmo attended the.

Jillian Orr [00:11:09] He was. He was.

Kyle Ashworth [00:11:10] No, no, no. The current Cosmo showed up with scantly clad.

Jillian Orr [00:11:15] Whoa.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:15] They did a dance with the husband.

Guest [00:11:17] Right.

Jillian Orr [00:11:18] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:11:18] Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [00:11:19] And I. I've been charged. I've had dinner with Charlie. Oh, long time ago. Several years ago. So I've met him.

Kyle Ashworth [00:11:25] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:11:26] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:26] Oh, well, they claimed otherwise on one of their podcasts. Okay, nice. Well, I just wanted to say that I. Well, we haven't talked about this in. In our. In a redo, but we've talked about. We've. We've done a couple episodes where we've talked about Charlie and Ben Schilotti, who. They both have a podcast together called Questions from Closet. And the episodes have been maybe somewhat controversial for some people, I think. And there's a clip that we're gonna play where they're responding a little bit to one of the episodes that we did, but just a little bit of a story I wanted to give. Is that right when the first book, Charlie's first book was being sent to print.

John Dehlin [00:12:15] What was it called?

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:17] Behind the Mask? Yeah, he. That's when he met Ryan and they actually started dating. So by the time it was published, they were already dating. And Charlie's going around, you know, to stakes, giving firesides and Mormon moms and people, all Mormons, are believing that he's celibate, but he's secretly dating Ryan. Eventually, I think a lot of people, including us on Mormon Stories, talked about him having a secret boyfriend that he finally decided to come out clean. And he went to the honor code, told them that he was gonna break up with Ryan, at least for the time being while he graduated. And so he did. He didn't face any discipline necessarily, as far as I know, as far as he expressed on the podcast. But. But then he graduated and got engaged to Ryan, and now they're married. So. Yeah, that's the. That's the story.

John Dehlin [00:13:13] Yeah. And. And we've known about this marriage since it happened.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:17] We've held off on covering it, not. Not wanting to just jump on the story, invade their privacy, et cetera. But what. What led to us sort of deciding we wanted to cover it was the. The Mormon Church's recent hiring of Aaron Sherinian, I think is how you pronounce his name.

Guest 2 [00:13:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:38] He's the new director of communications for the Mormon Church, and as soon as he was hired, I think he replaced Eric Hawkins. But as soon as he was hired, I guess some conservative Mormons went and checked his kind of, you know, Instagram and Facebook profiles and found out that he's been marching in pride parades. He's pro lgbt. He has they them pronouns in his bio. Jillian's freaking out. Why are you freaking out?

Jillian Orr [00:14:02] I didn't know this either.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] Oh, yeah, yeah. It just happened like a couple weeks ago.

Jillian Orr [00:14:06] Whoa, the princess.

Jillian Orr [00:14:07] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:14:08] The head of pr. Yeah. And you know, when. When the. When the Supreme Court decision came out legalizing same sex marriage, he's got a tweet or an Instagram celebrating it.

Guest 2 [00:14:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:18] Yeah. So he needs pro trans, you know, so. So that was a really big deal.

Kyle Ashworth [00:14:24] Wow.

Jillian Orr [00:14:24] But.

John Dehlin [00:14:25] But there's several people in kind of the conservative Mormon world on YouTube who were quite confused and I think you could say upset.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:34] So there's this Greg Mattson guy from a YouTube channel called Quick, but also this Jacob Hansen guy from a YouTube channel called a Thoughtful Faith. And what I thought we'd start with is Jacob Hansen's clip just to provide the. What really was the impetus, because once this is coming out in TikTok and YouTube and Instagram and everywhere, and Charlie himself is posting about him and Ryan being active, then all of a sudden we don't feel like we're just doxxing a private citizen. It's become a matter of public discourse very broadly, including instigated by Charlie himself. And so at that point, why would. Why would we hold off?

Kyle Ashworth [00:15:14] It really becomes kind of the affect or effect of advocacy. It's the reason why Charlie is attending all of these firesides and holding these opportunities to better help the Latter Day Saints understand this topic. And now you're kind of seeing the results of your labor. Therefore, I think it's worth talking about. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] Yeah. Okay, so we'll play this quick clip from Jacob Hansen.

Church Members and Leaders React to the Wedding

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:15:39] Is this no longer what we believe? It is, at the very least, confusing to have a bishop in our church posting love is love. While the church's official teachings are that homosexual relationships are seriously sinful, in fact, I was recently involved in a membership council for someone who had engaged in homosexual behavior and where he faced church discipline. Yet when the Deseret book author Charlie Byrd announces his engagement to his boyfriend on social media, I see other LDS authors and BYU officials writing entire blogs

Video Clip 1 [00:16:19] where they celebrate this union that the

Video Clip 1 [00:16:22] church teaches is deeply sinful. Now, regardless of your opinions on these matters, is this not confusing? Even young women's General president Emily Belle Freeman still has Charlie posted on her social media page as an example of someone that we can all learn from.

Video Clip 1 [00:16:41] So is it that some people who

Video Clip 1 [00:16:43] have some level of celebrity status don't face any sort of church discipline for what they do, while ordinary members like my friend do? I couldn't help but think of my friend who was in that membership council and what he thinks about all this.

John Dehlin [00:16:59] Kyle, you were kind of smiling.

Kyle Ashworth [00:17:01] All the humanity. I mean, the idea that because you're gay, you cannot be. You can't learn anything.

Guest [00:17:07] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] Like, keep going.

Jillian Orr [00:17:10] Is this no longer. Is this no longer what we believe?

Kyle Ashworth [00:17:13] No, it's not.

Jillian Orr [00:17:15] It's not.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] Okay, keep going. Sorry.

Kyle Ashworth [00:17:16] No, you just think of that. It's like, how condescending. How. Like this is maybe a discussion about privilege. And from Jacob's perspective, he's looking at Charlie saying, you're gay, therefore you cannot be believed. And that's one of the biggest problems that I find in Mormonism is, oh, you don't have a temple recommend. I can't believe you. Oh, you're. This idea that you have, you have to be verified, sourced and part of the fold in order to be believed is really a problem within Mormonism. And I think Jacob does an excellent job at showing, really, one of the Mormonism's biggest blind spots in its inability to be diverse. And it's. It's very real attempts at ostracizing any voice that is not its own.

Jillian Orr [00:18:03] Yeah, I think I'm with you on that one. Because it's just so. We want to try and bridge it because it just. It's so contrasting. It's so contrasting to feel that one is treated one way when another's treated another way. On my way here, I was talking to my brother who was gay. He was gay before, is gay before he came out before I did. And he was telling me his experiences of bishops that he had and how he struggled with one bishop that treated him extremely unfair when he recognized that he was gay and he went above him to the stake president. And the stake president, instead of doing something about it, moved my brother to another ward.

Jillian Orr [00:18:39] And so it just feels like this roulette where he's like, he was frustrated because he's like, Charlie's not going to get the same treatment that a lot of people have. And so part of us, there's a celebration of this is great. And then there's another part that hurts because that's not what everyone's been experiencing.

Kyle Ashworth [00:18:54] And I think the eximo crowd, and maybe even the nuanced liberal Mormon crowd is saying that exact same thing. This is just a case of leadership roulette. You're highlighting something that's just a very small minority. And I think that's really the discussion we need to have. Is this really just at some point, do we. I think now is the point where we have this discussion that maybe this isn't just leadership roulette. Maybe, perhaps, possibly in a roundabout way, this really is a change. And. And I think a big name like Charlie Bird may say this could be a change because it's big enough that how do you undo this?

Guest [00:19:31] Right.

John Dehlin [00:19:33] All right, Harada, you wanted to play a quick clip from Charlie and Ben's podcast, right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:38] Yeah, yeah, but I did want to discuss that. Well, what should. Should we discuss?

Guest [00:19:44] I.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:45] Probably after. After I explain how do we get information, but basically, I think you already explained, John. We've been hearing that, you know, that Charlie and Ryan had been embraced by their word, by multiple sources. And we have known about it for several, probably months, and we didn't really want to cover it, but finally, I think the Jacob Hansen video was what made us.

Guest [00:20:10] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:10] I think this is important. And then also finding out that there's other couples who are getting similar treatment as well. Right. So when I heard about it for the first time and I talked to my husband and my sister or my dad about it, I.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:23] I thought the calling was interesting to me, but they all thought that the sacrament was actually the big thing. And the reason that I've understood now is because if you are taking the sacrament and are allowed by the bishop, the bishop knows that you're taking the sacrament. That means that either the Bishop doesn't believe that you're actually sinning or you have anything to repent of or, you know, that it's like, too bad. Which is, you know, we know that the law of chastity, violating the law of chastity is second to murder. So at least their bishop and possibly take precedent. They don't believe that they are committing the sin next to murder, which is kind of cool and progressive. And so, yeah, I think that's why it's pretty interesting.

Jillian Orr [00:21:14] That's so confusing. That is so confusing because even just being in a gay. Even just kissing a girl.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:23] Right.

Jillian Orr [00:21:23] Even just kissing a girl, I can't take the sacrament.

John Dehlin [00:21:26] According to what, Who.

Jillian Orr [00:21:28] According to bishop. According to the standards. The bishop's handbook is if you participate in any homosexual relationship, even at byu, if you hold hands or date girls, you'll get kicked out of byu. But if in the church, if you are kissing a girl or pursuing the lustful desires that you have of pursuing homosexual feelings, you can't take the sacrament. So that blows my mind.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] And, and just for those who are trying to speculate, I, I do have a source who's confirmed that the bishop and the stake president know that they're married and, you know, support what's going on. So it's not a matter of the bishop and stake president not knowing.

Kyle Ashworth [00:22:07] Yeah, 100%. Like, I, I've got additional sources too. And so I, I'm, I'm listening to Jillian that kind of, her mind is blown. And then I think, like, but should we also have a conversation about, like this, these differing standards? Because it seems like we, we have, we have talked about Bishop Roulette, but uiu, Idaho has a different standard than BYU Provo. Byu, Hawaii has a different standard than those two BYU schools. Bishop so and so has a different standard than President so and so BYU

Jillian Orr [00:22:40] has a different standard than even the church does.

Kyle Ashworth [00:22:42] That's right.

Jillian Orr [00:22:43] BYU is more strict.

Kyle Ashworth [00:22:44] That's right. And so that's what I'm saying. Like when we start talking about just kissing somebody or in a relationship or creating a friendship, like really, what standard should Mormons live by? And this then goes back to what Jacob Hansen is talking about or Greg Mattson is talking about or any of these other conservative, ultra orthodox Latter Day Saints, what standard are they judging this topic by? And at what point does the church become responsible for setting the record straight and creating a narrative that is uniform? Because then, I mean, all four of us have differing opinions as to what is acceptable or what certain leaders allowed us to do.

Kyle Ashworth [00:23:23] Or not do. And all of those are four completely different experiences. How can that be standard? And how can you literally judge somebody's next afterlife experience in the next afterlife? By creating a set of standards that literally is as colorful as the roulette will.

John Dehlin [00:23:43] Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's the rub here is because we don't want to invade Charlie and Ryan's privacy. We don't want to have them get in trouble. We're not trying to cause trouble. This is a celebratory podcast. But at the same time, we acknowledge that this podcast maybe contributes to forcing the church's hand to clarify what's going on.

Kyle Ashworth [00:24:07] To me, I think that's probably one of the hardest parts about doing an episode like this, candidly, honestly, it is the idea of, if the church is allowing this to happen, I don't want to stop that, because to a lot of Latter Day Saints, and I think there's a big difference here between Greg Madsen and Jacob Hanson will talk about Latter Day Saints of faith, gay Latter Day Saints of faith, like people who are living single, celibate lives. I also want to talk about gay Latter Day Saints who are faithful, who have faith, who aren't just talking about the covenant path, but are talking about a relationship with Christ.

Kyle Ashworth [00:24:40] And I want to give them that space if that's their path. And so I don't want to ruin it for them either, if the church is in a position where they are making changes and want to do it the way the church always does, like these pilot programs, or we're going to do it here, but quietly, and don't talk about it here until we roll it out. I understand the way the church works, and it's super confusing at times. And I don't want to. I guess my point, I don't want to stymie that. I don't. I don't want to stop that from happening if that's what the church is doing.

Kyle Ashworth [00:25:05] But I also want to make this very public and give a platform for this that it is happening. So other bishops and other church leaders out there who are contemplating how they handle this topic and their wives and their families, who also have an input on how the church affairs are run at a local level.

Kyle Ashworth [00:25:25] I want them to know that you're not alone out there, that there are other bishops and church leaders out there who are making substantial changes to the status quo, and you can be part of that change as well.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:35] Yeah, I should say that this morning I had this beautiful conversation with my dad, who I'VE said a million times on the podcast that my dad's a bishop, but I was telling him about it, and I just wanted to hear his opinion on it as a bishop.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:51] And as the conversation started going through and I was explaining who Charlie was and what was happening and how I. I saw what I saw. I went to church yesterday and saw it. He's like, you know, if Zach and, And you, my husband, if Zach and you decide to. To come to church and come to Our Word, I would let you have a calling, and I would. I would give you a calling, and I would probably also let you take the sacrament. Like, I. I wouldn't. I wouldn't tell you not to. And I was like, wow. Like, so if that, if this is. What if this episode does that to other bishops? I mean, you know, that's. That's great.

Jillian Orr [00:26:27] Yeah. Maybe the culture can shift enough that God's mind has changed too, because eventually that's what we're crossing our fingers on. Right? Is that enough? Bishops say, hey, yeah, we'll do it too. We'll do it to that. Then all of a sudden we can get new revelation of like, hey, now it's okay. Because if maybe God was like, no, until Charlie Bird did it. And he's like, actually, I like Charlie. Let's. Let's make this allow.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:47] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:49] All right, so we'll just show you really quick. Visually, there's a. There's a picture of Charlie Bird. For those who are watching on YouTube or Facebook, there's his partner, his husband, Ryan Clifford. We have confirmed through LDS tools that they're both. They both hold callings of ward activities chair. And then Harodo. Do you want to explain these, These images?

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:13] Yeah. So I included a couple screenshots. That one, it's a post that he made. This was before they were married and he was. He. They both attended the Washington, D.C. temple. Just. I don't think they went in, but they would. They were looking from the outside anyway. But they made a post about how he feels about the temple and how it makes him feel. Blah, blah. But what's interesting is that the official account of the Washington, D.C. temple commented on the post and said, this is beautiful. Thank you for sharing your experience and touching testimony. Some ex Mormons thought that that was significant, you know, like an official church account commenting on a gay couple's post.

Kyle Ashworth [00:27:53] Well, and to add to that, like, the post actually talked about he and Ryan being there together. And I mean, it was very clear that they were in a relationship. So.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:01] Right.

Kyle Ashworth [00:28:01] It Wasn't just, oh, here's two handsome guys that are standing out in front of the Emerald Castle. Yeah, so it was important.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:09] Yeah. So that's pretty significant. There's another one, I think, right?

John Dehlin [00:28:13] This looks like a little video.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:15] It's not showing up.

John Dehlin [00:28:17] Oh, yeah, here's the video. Should we roll it?

Guest 2 [00:28:19] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:19] So I included. We included a couple of videos from. From Charlie's account about how he. Because this is important too, right? He's public about his relationship. He. Very public about it and very public about being active in the church. So it's not like we're, you know,

John Dehlin [00:28:34] outing him or doxing.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:35] Outing him or doxing him. Yeah, he's very, very public about it. And so there's a couple videos that we want to. Are interesting.

John Dehlin [00:28:42] All right, let's roll the first one. So, Harada, for those who couldn't see that, what did you just see?

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:03] So it's a. It's Ryan and Charlie at the beginning, and there's a question from someone on Instagram that asks them, are your families. Are your Mormon family supportive of your marriage? And then it's. It's just a bunch of pictures of their LDS families attending. Attending their wedding and celebrating, which is pretty cool.

John Dehlin [00:29:25] All right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] Okay.

Jillian Orr [00:29:26] What?

John Dehlin [00:29:27] Oh, no, I just.

Kyle Ashworth [00:29:28] They. I believe the answer is yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:30] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:30] Yeah, that's. Yeah, there's a yes at the end.

John Dehlin [00:29:33] Okay. And what's this. What's this next clip?

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:37] So this one is just a little answer that he gives to a question about how. How come, you know, I mean, you're. Your church teaches that your marriage is not valid. So kind of, how do you reconcile that?

John Dehlin [00:29:49] And the comment that he's responding to says your marriage doesn't count. Even count in the eyes of your God. So waiting was pointless. I don't know.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:00] Oh, yeah, because this is a response of a video that he made that he waited until marriage for sexual intercourse. Oh, so he. So this is a person responding. Well, if your marriage doesn't even count, why did you wait?

John Dehlin [00:30:15] Okay. Because God wouldn't want you to live the law of chastity if you were gay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:19] Well, it's kind of like he's.

John Dehlin [00:30:21] Like, if you're. If you're gay, just throw it all together.

Kyle Ashworth [00:30:26] It's John Jacob Hanson.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:28] What's happening here is this idea that, like, if the church says that your marriage is counterfeit and doesn't even count, why are you waiting?

Guest 2 [00:30:35] You know?

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:35] You know, like, there's no. For the church, there's no difference. Like, before and after gay marriage because gay marriage is not a thing.

John Dehlin [00:30:42] Yeah. All in or all out, Julie.

Jillian Orr [00:30:45] That's just my thought. I was like. I remember in the temple when they talked about it, like, law of chastity is homosexual relationship. I'm like, well, check that one off the box.

Jillian Orr [00:30:53] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:30:55] Okay. All right, let's roll. Let's roll the clip.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:00] Oh, is.

John Dehlin [00:31:03] Is it possible this one doesn't have. Oh, I think there might not be audio for that one.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:09] I'm sorry, guys.

John Dehlin [00:31:10] That's okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:10] Yeah, that's all right.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] If you remember what he said. Approximately.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:15] Yeah. I mean, he just explains about his beliefs, and he believed that was right for him, and he's kind of tired of people telling him what to do or not to do.

John Dehlin [00:31:23] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:24] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:31:24] Okay.

Kyle Ashworth [00:31:25] And I think ultimately, like, his point was that it was his choice, and that that was just. I mean, part of his own personal relationship with God, and. And I respect and honor that. If that's something that Charlie wanted and Charlie and Ryan wanted that, and that's what they did, that's completely up to them. And I respect. I respect that autonomy, and I respect their opportunity to. To have that relationship with God.

Guest 2 [00:31:47] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:31:47] However they see fit.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] Got it. Okay. So, Gerardo, what's this next one?

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:53] So this was. This is a post he actually made yesterday about why he stays active in the church.

John Dehlin [00:31:59] So it's like January 28th, 2024. Yeah.

Jillian Orr [00:32:02] Right.

John Dehlin [00:32:02] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:03] And, you know, we're not. Put the post there. People can go and read it and see why he. Why he decides to stay. But there was a comment that was.

John Dehlin [00:32:14] I'll just read the main post. It says if you missed it.

Jillian Orr [00:32:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] I put up a post tonight about why I stay active in my religion, even though it can be painful and difficult as a gay man, I'd love for you to take a few minutes to read it. I think this is important because it's not like it's these two quiet guys being private who just want to live their private, religious, gay lives. Charlie's openly. How big is his following?

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:41] 160,000.

Kyle Ashworth [00:32:42] Yeah. Just under 200,000. So quite a significant.

John Dehlin [00:32:45] So bigger than Mormon stories on Instagram, right?

Guest 2 [00:32:47] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:47] Like, three times, four times.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] Yeah. And he's telling the world, I'm active, and here's why.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:53] So, I mean, fair, right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] Yeah. Okay. You want to go back to it?

Jillian Orr [00:32:57] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:58] So there was a comment there that was kind of interesting and. Just want to read it. It says, sadly, I think it is. It largely depends on the. On the bishop and stake president, the fourth option, which Is a. Is. Is an Instagram account. Is a gate married couple, two who share about their experience being active members. They can bear their testimonies and have callings, although not official callings. I think actually Ryan and I don't know you were a word clerk, Kyle. So with the fact that it's an LDS tools, that makes it an official calling, right?

Kyle Ashworth [00:33:42] Yeah. And I actually wanted to go back to this calling discussion too. Yes, it is an official calling and I think the thing that we're not talking about either, and I don't want to completely derail, but when you're called, what happens? Oh yeah, a bishop interviews you, finds you worthy, and then you stand up in front of the congregation. The bishop does and asks for a sustaining vote. So that's why I think this is a huge thing to talk about. It's because not only did the bishop feel like Charlie and Ryan were worthy to have a calling, but they also opened it up to the general membership of the church in their area, which is predominantly Latter Day Saints in a very affluent area. And the members raised their right hand to the sustaining square and approve the calling.

Jillian Orr [00:34:27] And probably just to clarify what a calling is, is that it's a, it's a responsibility in the church. Normally it's like helping with the youth or teaching lessons or getting involved somehow with teaching the doctrine of the church to the people. And so having a calling is pretty significant because you are, you're seen worthy. Like you're saying, to be in a position where you can teach or support or be a part of, you know, God's servants in the church.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:54] Okay. So Hiroda, what were you saying about anything else about this slide?

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:57] Oh yeah, so. And then said so but this lesbian Latter Day Saints, apparently they are not, they don't have official callings, according to this person. And I said, and it says, I often think about how my social media stories I share would potentially get me in trouble too. And it's scary to think about, but I hope the church will scale back on excommunications because it just isn't right anyway. And then the truth option, which is this lesbian couple who are active in the church who are allowed to give their testimonies and have callings and they, they commented on the post as well. And they actually

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:35] talk about no knowing other gay couple, the gay couples who were actually excommunicated and they acknowledge that, you know, their experience is not what other people are experiencing in the church, but they have a Instagram account, the dot fourth dot option. And they share their experience being active in the. In the church.

John Dehlin [00:35:58] All right. Okay. Well, yeah, and so it's. And it's not just Charlie. It's not just Ryan, as we've said. It's. It's at least five or six other couples that we've confirmed across the U.S. yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:36:12] And I. I know. I know a lesbian couple who are married here in Salt Lake City, and she. Her. Obviously two women, but one of the wives is a secretary in the Relief Society presidency.

John Dehlin [00:36:27] Julian, do you have something to say?

Jillian Orr [00:36:32] Every time something new comes up, I'm just like. I'm just shocked. I'm just so shocked because, I mean, part of me is like, that's great. That's great that there's movement. And then part of it. Just like every time I hear something like that, it actually hurts my heart because of the grief that I've experienced.

John Dehlin [00:36:47] You yourself?

Jillian Orr [00:36:48] Yeah, just the pain of me and hearing stories like. And talking with my brother and my friends or people in the queer community, just, like, how painful it's been to be ostracized and then to see people who are accepted and allowed to be part of different things. It's just mind blowing to me because I don't know why. Yeah, I don't know. There's just a lot of pain behind that.

Kyle Ashworth [00:37:12] These are the queer stories that just. I want to reach through and just, like, hug everybody because they're so hard. Because there are a lot of Latter Day Saints who want to remain Latter Day Saints, a lot of queer Latter Day Saints who wish to remain queer Latter Day Saints and love that identity and love God at the same time. And they're literally ripped from the pews and told, you cannot worship with us, and they're excommunicated. And I think that is. That's the real problem with a discussion like this is what is the metric? What makes a Charlie and Ryan work when a so and so who was equally faithful?

Kyle Ashworth [00:37:47] I mean, I'll say equally faithful because they chose to be there, they wanted to be there, they love God, they believe in the church, and they were kicked out and they were ostracized. And does that really just come down to who their leader was, or were they not faithful enough? Is Charlie and Ryan more faithful? Are Charlie and Ryan more faithful? Is that the reason why they're in this position? I just think this is. This is a discussion, and this is a problem that Mormonism needs to fix really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:38:12] There's a couple comments I'll show that have come in. Trevin, Cutler, Knapp, Says so crazy I sat through disciplinary counsel for same sex relations, was out on probation and told I could not take the sacrament. Hold any callings, give talks or prayers in any meetings. Thank you for sharing.

John Dehlin [00:38:34] I'll just share a couple more. Rock. Monanoff 808 writes wow. Just wow. As a gay man myself, I don't know how to react to this. I think of the gay people who have committed, who have died by suicide because they wanted this and could never have it. Thank you for sharing that. Rachmaninoff808 we're gonna be showing some clips of few past Mormon stories, episodes that tell the stories of people just living their beautiful married gay lives and the bishop comes knocking on the door and excommunicates them on their doorstep. So that's going to be coming. But thanks for those who shared those comments that help give a sense for why there's a real injustice here. Gerardo, do we. Is it worth it? Just covering really quickly the Church's policy on same sex marriage.

Guest 2 [00:39:23] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:24] Well, this is important because. Because the handbook hasn't changed, right? We're not saying that this is coming from the top. I think it's important to acknowledge that this is coming from local leadership as far as like how high up they're asking, you know, we don't know. But definitely the Handbook of the Instructions, which is the manual that bishops use worldwide to guide them in making decisions about what to do with members, that hasn't changed. So we can read what it says today.

John Dehlin [00:39:54] Well, I would say this does come from the top in the sense that the current Handbook of Instructions allows it to be a local matter of discretion

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:02] as far as excommunications. But as far as like, considering someone worthy to take the sacrament, I think the Campbell gets pretty clear.

John Dehlin [00:40:09] Okay. All right, let's. Let's show it.

Church Policy on Same-Sex Marriage and Callings

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:13] So There's a section 38.6.16. Same sex marriage. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but there's this paragraph that says only a man and a woman who are legally and lawfully wedded as husband and wife should have sexual relations. Any other sexual relations, including those between persons of the same sex, are sinful and undermine the divinely created institution of the family.

John Dehlin [00:40:43] Okay, so gay sex, lesbian sex.

Kyle Ashworth [00:40:46] No.

John Dehlin [00:40:47] No.

Kyle Ashworth [00:40:47] Wah wah.

John Dehlin [00:40:48] Still a no. Yep. Okay. Did you want to read the next slide?

Guest 2 [00:40:54] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:54] This is from the section 38.6.15. Same sex attraction and same sex behavior. And it says God's commandments forbid all unchaste behavior, either heterosexual or Same sex behavior that is inconsistent with the law of chastity may be caused for holding a church membership council.

John Dehlin [00:41:15] But it says may.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:16] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [00:41:16] Right.

Guest 2 [00:41:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:17] So it's not required.

Guest [00:41:18] Right.

John Dehlin [00:41:18] It used to be required.

Guest [00:41:19] Right.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] Like just what, five years ago?

Kyle Ashworth [00:41:21] Yeah, it was. And do you think this is maybe the Mormon Church, like opening up an option, the fourth option, the fifth option here, where they literally are saying like, oh, because we all experienced it when we were growing up, kind of through the church, we would love all of the pews to smell like tobacco smoke because then we'd know like, like everybody sins. If everybody sins smelled like tobacco smoke. This like kind of is set up to say, like, we can give callings to everyone because everyone sins. And so if we said you couldn't have a calling because you sinned, that would preclude everyone from a calling. I just wonder if this is like, this is how the justification wagon kind of rolls through the Pioneer, the Oregon Trail.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] A lot of people are saying in the comments that there's a difference between assignments and callings. Is that true?

Kyle Ashworth [00:42:11] Sure. And I've seen this too, so kind of. We discussed this earlier before the episode. A secretary in the Relief Society presidency is a calling. A ward cleaning scheduler is an assignment. And so there are queer people with those callings, like building a scheduler or I mean, a building security or a cleaning scheduler. I don't think those are like callings, but I know the activities chair is a calling that falls under the bishop and takes direction from the ward council. So they likely would be sitting in a ward council or a representative in the ward council. That puts you pretty close to. I mean, I've sat in ward councils. I know who sits in those meetings. Those are your bishop, your counselors, your Relief Society president, your high priest or elders quorum leaders. Now, so, I mean, you're with the top brass of a ward.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:03] Yeah. Something that Kara just said. This is a tangent, but something. It just came to my mind. Kara said to me yesterday when we went to their word was like, can you imagine how much it would have made a difference for you as a 12 year old knowing that there's a gay couple in your word and you handing them the sacrament every single Sunday, like, what that would have done to you as a, as a closeted gay 12, 12, 13 year old? And I was like, yeah, that would have been life changing. I think that's pretty cool.

John Dehlin [00:43:36] I think that's what people are saying, don't mess this up. Like what this whole thing does is it Risks Charlie and Ryan being excommunicated or dismissed or canceled in some way so that those kids in this ward

Kyle Ashworth [00:43:50] won't have that experience, that is my worry. And then I'm just reading the comments through on the latter gay story side, and I'm reminded there's another. There's another woman who just said, yes, I have a calling in my word, and I forgot all about her experience. I even interviewed her on latter gay stories, and she, outside of Utah, has a calling, she says, albeit minor, but it is still a calling, and it's something that she enjoys. And she's active in church and she's transgender. So the experience is there even outside of kind of Mormon Mecca in Utah. And I don't want to ruin that for these Latter Day Saints either.

Kyle Ashworth [00:44:23] But I also, again, want to emphasize the important fact that this is happening. And if you're a church leader out there who is contemplating whether or not that gay Mormon in your ward is worth a calling, I say, yes, they absolutely are. And extend those callings and give people an opportunity to serve. Because if they're choosing to be in your pews, and maybe the facetious side of me says you'll take anyone you can get at this point, but if they're choosing to serve, serve and allow them to serve and give them an opportunity to fulfill a responsibility. It was Hinckley years ago. Every new member, every member needs three things.

Kyle Ashworth [00:44:59] A friend in the church, nourishment from the good word, and a calling. A responsibility. I don't know when or if that will ever change, but I think those are all three things that every queer Latter Day Saint who chooses to attend church need as well.

Jillian Orr [00:45:13] And how, like, how cool is that for them? Like, you just these new stories that I didn't know about, like a transgender individual who was baptized or a queer couple that was married is allowed to make their sacrament and have callings. Like, how exciting that they feel, like they get to do both things that they love. Like, how cool would that be to not have to pick between your spirituality and sexuality? Because that's how I felt. I always felt like I had to pick between my spirituality, my sexuality. And I completely agree with you when it comes to having the youth see that, or like, having.

Jillian Orr [00:45:43] I'm trying to think. I was like, when was the first time I met a queer individual? I actually couldn't even tell you because I was just so involved in my ward, in that world, that I never even was exposed to such diversity that maybe I did. Maybe I did know them. And we didn't even know. But it's just a cool thing to be able to merge if that's what really is making people happy and allowing them to choose what makes them happy.

Kyle Ashworth [00:46:08] And the alternative opinions, the ones who are really the loudest voices against things like this have spent a lot of time, like, I don't want to say pointing their muskets. I didn't want to say pointing their muskets. Literally pointing their muskets towards the LGBTQ community.

Kyle Ashworth [00:46:23] What these very conservative, ultra orthodox Latter Day Saints haven't been able to create a narrative around are the allies, the family members of bishops, like the wives of the bishop, or other church leaders in the ward who are supporting things like this.

Kyle Ashworth [00:46:39] I've got a story right now at latter gay stories about a family in the Pacific Northwest who stood up for a transgender kid in their ward. And they're some outside. A couple members in the ward and then some outside kind of periphery ward members are absolutely throwing. They're going bonkers over this. They've involved the bishop, the stake president, the area authorities, trying to get these families affirming Latter Day Saints in their ward excommunicated. They want their callings taken away because they showed up in a rainbow pride pin or they read a book about Jacob who wears a dress. And so the narrative, the kind of these muskets have always been pointed at us like the queer Latter Day Saints who.

Kyle Ashworth [00:47:16] Who show up on Sunday or try to do our best. But now there's cisgender, straight Latter Day Saints who also are supporting. There's no narrative for that. And it's really difficult for Jacob Hanson to go up against a bishop or up against the bishop's wife and find relevancy or find somebody who supports him, because it was a lot easier just to target the queer person. And I think that's a beautiful part of this advocacy as well.

John Dehlin [00:47:42] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:43] Are people saying that because we're talking about there, we're risking them?

John Dehlin [00:47:48] I'm just. Those are just the thoughts that came to my mind, but I really. If I thought that was going to be the outcome, I wouldn't do this episode.

Guest 2 [00:47:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:55] I really think the cat. The cows out of the barn. I don't think the church can put this genie. How many metaphors can I use? I don't think the church could put this cow genie back in the barn bottle.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally.

Kyle Ashworth [00:48:08] In a bag.

Jillian Orr [00:48:10] The candy bar is out of the wrapper.

Guest 2 [00:48:11] Everyone.

Kyle Ashworth [00:48:12] You just chewed gum. Oh, wait, is that too much?

John Dehlin [00:48:16] Yeah. So that's My hope is that. Is that this is a watershed moment. Really quickly, Gerardo, we also included. Last thing. Did you want to say one more thing?

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:24] No.

John Dehlin [00:48:25] Okay. In the Church Handbook of Instructions, you know, if we went back to 2015, the church made it so same sex marriage was a mandatory, you know, disciplinary council with mandatory excommunication, which actually put same sex marriage higher than rape and incest in terms of severity. And we did our best to embarrass the church to the point where it needed to change that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:52] That's what I was going to say to the response. If anyone thinks, like, oh, why are you highlighting this? It might be taken away. Well, I don't think the church reversed the November 15 policy because it was kept secret. Right. I think reversed it because we kept hammering and exposing it.

Guest 2 [00:49:08] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:49:09] And that's how the church changes.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] It's literally the only way the church changes is when they get really bad media.

Kyle Ashworth [00:49:14] And I thought. I think the other interesting part about that kind of. I don't call it a reversal because it really was just a. They took the puzzle apart and they just put the puzzle pieces in other parts of the handbook. But I do think the interesting part was Dallin Oaks when he announced that, he specifically said, we did this because the members created a divide between the Latter Day Saints and the LGBTQ community, and it become really harmful. And so we wanted to kind of mend those fences and bridge the divide. He said, essentially, we want the members to do better and we want the members to stop with the prejudice, stop with the bigotry, stop with the hatred.

Kyle Ashworth [00:49:50] And I just thought that was even super interesting and maybe a tad bit tacky that the church would say, it's not because we gave you a uninspired undivine revelation. It's that the members didn't know how to treat the LGBTQ community South really fast. So therefore, we're going to blame the members for the 2015, the rollout of the 2015 policy or the impact of the 2015 policy, and then kind of put that pressure on them. I thought that was really weird. At the end of the day, I'm glad it's gone, at least on paper, and we can still continue to work for a better Mormonism for both straight and non straight Latter Day Saints.

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:27] So for those who are able to see, who can't see, I'll explain it. We've got from the Church Handbook of instructions, when membership council is required or may be necessary. And then, you know, it's got two columns. A membership council is required. And it lists murder, rape, sexual assault conviction, child or youth abuse, and violent predatory behavior. And then under sexual immorality, those are. That's the category of violent acts and abuse. And then under sexual immorality, it lists incest, child pornography, plural marriage, and sexual predatory behavior. And then there's a second column that isn't mandatory, but instead it's membership council may be necessary and same sex marriage or cohabitation and civil unions and partnerships are under, maybe necessary for, for, you know, for disciplinary council.

John Dehlin [00:51:35] And then. Yeah. And so you know what that shows people need to know that it looks like the church is backed off excommunicating same sex married couples by 2024. And that's a big deal.

Kyle Ashworth [00:51:48] It is a huge deal. Because I follow this latter gay stories really, really closely. And sometimes I would have close to a dozen stories of people who were facing excommunication membership restrictions based on their relationships. And it wasn't even just marriage. It was if they were cohabitating or in a same sex relationship.

Kyle Ashworth [00:52:06] There were bishops that were out there. And it really, I mean, I was highlighting. It almost seemed like maybe two or three a month we were sharing these stories of people who were excommunicated, who chose to stay and who wanted to be in the pew, wanted to practice Mormonism, but they were told they couldn't. And it was always guised under the law of chastity, like we were excommunicating you or doing this membership council because of the law of chastity. Your violation of the law of chastity never sat right. I think the second part of that was administratively how we could intervene with those excommunications with some phone calls and get some of those stopped.

Kyle Ashworth [00:52:44] To me, that's a whole other podcast episode. But if this was like the divine will of God, why could just a couple phone calls or a few emails reverse these decisions? If it absolutely was the mind and will of God?

Kyle Ashworth [00:52:58] Always confusing to me, but I 100% would go to bat for the queer couple who chose to stay in the church. And so did some church leadership. And I want to give credit where credit is due, but there are some leaders at 50 North Temple who believed the same way, and they would intervene. And there were excommunications that were stopped dead in their tracks.

John Dehlin [00:53:17] Yeah. And I've got close contacts who say that the quorum of the 12, quorum of the 15 is divided and that there are members of the Quorum that are pro lgbt, even potentially pro same sex marriage. And then Others that aren't. And so, you know, that's a problem.

Kyle Ashworth [00:53:34] And, and those who are pro. It didn't take very long for them to contact an area authority who contacted the stake president, who contacted the bishop or branch president, and excommunications were stopped.

John Dehlin [00:53:44] Shut down the excommunications within days.

Jillian Orr [00:53:46] Yeah, I really hope for the sake of, like, for the sanity of the queer community, just kind of what you're talking about is like, it's great, and I love that they can have these changes and these pivots and all these things that are shifting, but I hope that there's explanations as to why. I hope that there's, like, reasonings, because I remember, you know, just being a part of it. And before I even started identifying this way or starting to recognize how I felt, I remember being like, oh, well, my brothers gave up. We'll figure it out one day. We'll figure it out when we're in heaven, right?

Jillian Orr [00:54:12] But then when it was me, I was like, like, shoot, like, I need answers now. I can't wait until I die to figure out why. Because, you know, it's. And this is, this is an analogy that we just came up when John and I were filming with Jubilee this last time in la is that it feels like being a stray dog. Like, it feels like to be queer in the Mormon Church, from my personal experiences, that it feels like being a stray dog, where it's like everyone's excited and we gather around and look at this stray dog we took in and we love. But the stray dog doesn't get to live in the house. It never gets its own space. It never understands why either.

John Dehlin [00:54:50] It doesn't get a place at the table.

Jillian Orr [00:54:51] No, it doesn't get a place at the table. It's not equal. You're a second class citizen, if anything, you get the scripts and there's no reason why we don't know. We're like, oh, well, God will tell us one day. Well, wouldn't, like, why can't we know? So I hope as these changes happen, which are for the benefit of the mental health of queer community, but also the happiness is that there's also an explanation as to why.

Kyle Ashworth [00:55:11] And wouldn't that go to show, like, how unsustainable Mormonism really is? Because I 100% agree with Gillian, like the idea that, oh, we don't have an answer to that. That'll come, like, just don't worry about it. Think of something else. Like refocus your attention. And when enough people ask those questions, it really does put the church in a position where they have to start answering those. And if you can't answer them, then you just capitulate and you just open up a space for this to exist.

Kyle Ashworth [00:55:36] I kind of think that's part of the area we're in now where we don't have an answer for you. We can't explain why we did what we did. Therefore, we'll just do it and we'll just allow it to happen. And if it happens enough, and the members, it doesn't really matter how they react if stories like this continue to pop up, then again, the genie, the cat, the cow. The cow, the candy bar, it doesn't matter at that point because now it's just become part of the vernacular, part of the experience.

John Dehlin [00:56:06] So for those who just feel like we're just being mean to Charlie and Ryan, we isolated four or five clips from, you know, Mormon stories episodes within the past five to 10 years. Some of them within just a couple years.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:21] Less than a year.

John Dehlin [00:56:22] Yeah. That we wanted to play just. Just for the historical record. And Jillian, I'll be curious to hear your responses to these as well. I'm sure, Kyle, you've seen them. Carrado, do you want to talk about the first one?

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:34] Yeah. So this is my. My friend's actually.

John Dehlin [00:56:37] Let me do this. So. So some of the episodes we're going to be showing, there's Jill and Katie Searle, episode 974 to 975, responding to tragedy. This is where Jill Searles. Oh, Katie Searle's mom. Jill talks about her excommunication. We have Laurie Lee hall, the. One of the chief architects for the Mormon Church.

Kyle Ashworth [00:57:01] Fascinating, beautiful, like heartbreaking story.

John Dehlin [00:57:03] Who was excommunicated just for not even having surgeries. Just gender expression, social transition. Yeah, that was a powerful one. We've got Elizabeth Grimshaw and then we've got Dusty Johns. Those are the ones. But. But the first one. Gerardo, do you want to set this one up?

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:22] Yeah. This is my. These are my friends Brendan and Douglas. And I think the clip is pretty self explanatory.

John Dehlin [00:57:29] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:30] What's happening?

John Dehlin [00:57:30] And we just want you to contrast the treatment that Charlie and. And Ryan are currently enjoying relative to what these people whose clips we're about to show you what they experienced just a year to five years ago.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:44] Less than a year. This one is last July.

Kyle Ashworth [00:57:46] Yeah. This episode like a year ago.

Guest 2 [00:57:48] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:48] Yeah.

Stories of Excommunication and Disciplinary Councils

John Dehlin [00:57:49] All right, let's roll it.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:57:52] Sorry, I just want to make this clear. So you had moved out how far Away from your homeward, where you grew up.

Video Clip 2 [00:57:59] So I was raised in Meridian, went to church there. I, I moved to Boise, the capital of Idaho. He's in college. In college, going to Boise State.

Video Clip 2 [00:58:09] And you were living together at the time?

Video Clip 2 [00:58:10] Living together. Small, remote apartment. It's kind of got like a back entrance. Like you gotta go and find it for sure. Student apartment. Yeah. Yeah.

Video Clip 2 [00:58:22] You never transfer records from your old ward because you never attended church. You hadn't attended church in four years.

Video Clip 2 [00:58:29] So after, After I graduated high school, I did try going to singles ward.

Video Clip 2 [00:58:33] Okay.

Video Clip 2 [00:58:34] Because that was what you were supposed to do. But my records, we, you know, learned it never moved over because I was only there for two Sundays. Okay.

Video Clip 2 [00:58:45] And just so people that are not from here can just get an idea

Video Clip 2 [00:58:49] how far is that, that where you

Video Clip 2 [00:58:51] were going to college from your home?

Video Clip 2 [00:58:53] It's about a. For me, it's a 20 minute drive. If you're driving, you know, at a normal pace, it's like 30 minutes. Okay.

Video Clip 2 [00:59:01] And it's about. And it's a different steak.

Video Clip 2 [00:59:03] Yeah, right. Completely different steak. Definitely. Completely different stake. Probably like three stakes over two. I don't know exactly.

Video Clip 2 [00:59:09] So.

Video Clip 2 [00:59:10] Okay, continue.

Video Clip 2 [00:59:12] Oh, yeah, yeah. Hanging out Wednesday night, knocking our door. And then Brennan comes out and opened

Video Clip 2 [00:59:19] the door and there's these two men. I was just sitting, I was like, there's two dudes, you know, soliciting at an apartment complex at night. Yeah, this is 8:30 at night.

Video Clip 2 [00:59:29] This was weird. And then they deliver a letter.

Video Clip 2 [00:59:34] I heard, I knew that they were from church because they were talking, we're

Video Clip 2 [00:59:37] from so and so ward. And then I rec. I recognized one of them. The other I didn't recognize, but they introduced themselves and they. I asked, you know. Well, I was like, well, you drive. I. I actually said, well, you drive. You drove all the way across town. You know, I think I said, I think I said, thank you for taking the time. Which I was trying to be polite, but I, I took the letter and I, I started opening it, like right in front of them.

Video Clip 2 [01:00:06] Yeah.

Video Clip 2 [01:00:06] And they kind of had this look like, oh, maybe we should like go away now, you know, before he starts reading it. And I saw the line which said, you're being called to a membership disciplinary council on the basis of your conduct related to same sex marriage. And so I didn't say anything to them. I let them go. And then we closed the door and kind of looked at each other and I was like, babe, you need to, you know, you need to come and look at this.

Video Clip 2 [01:00:38] Did they make faces. Was there any verbal reaction from them? Were they just standing awkwardly as you read it?

Video Clip 2 [01:00:43] It.

Video Clip 2 [01:00:43] Oh, so. So I was opening the letter. I. I'd briefly skimmed it, but before I went to, you know, called Doug over, I had let them go. So they. So they headed out, and we read it, and it took. We talked for a little bit about, like, what it meant, and I was like, what? You know, what is a membership council? Because I'd heard of disciplinary councils before, but didn't know if the membership council was the same thing. So we talked about it, and it took us a. A bit of conversation to figure out, like, the. The weight and the immensity of, like, what this meant. Right. And so we were like, oh, my gosh, we need to call Gerado right away.

Video Clip 2 [01:01:25] And they called you. Yeah. And do you know what happened?

Video Clip 2 [01:01:28] Yeah, I told them to record all the conversations they had with their bishop and then stake president.

Video Clip 2 [01:01:33] We.

Video Clip 2 [01:01:34] We put them up on that podcast, and I think we embarrassed them enough that they left them alone and didn't excommunicate them.

John Dehlin [01:01:40] Okay, so in that case, they weren't excommunicated because of Mormon stories.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:44] But we've got others where it did happen. Should we roll those?

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:47] Yeah. Well, let me say the reason why I think this was so significant. I mean, they. They had the right context. Right. To get on Mormon stories and embarrass the bishop publicly. But. But Brennan, who was the one that received the letter, he had never served a mission. He didn't have the multisitic priesthood.

Guest [01:02:03] He.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:04] He literally went inactive after. After, you know, being 17 years old. He was living outside of word boundaries, and they still went and found his address and to deliver this freaking letter for. To excommunicate him.

John Dehlin [01:02:21] Yeah. All right, Jillian, any thoughts?

Jillian Orr [01:02:25] You just. My face is always giving my thoughts away. I'm just. I'm just wondering, like, why, you know, what is. What is the reason behind it?

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:34] If.

Jillian Orr [01:02:34] If it was a valid reason, why didn't they follow through with it? Because if it was a valid reason, if that's what's supposed to happen, why didn't they follow through with it? Like.

Guest [01:02:42] Right.

Jillian Orr [01:02:42] What's the priority here? What was the motivation?

John Dehlin [01:02:44] Pr.

Jillian Orr [01:02:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:45] That's why we do these episodes, because it makes change in the church.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:48] Full stop. All right. The next one. The next three weren't so lucky. So this is Jill and Katie Searle, episode 974 of Mormon Stories podcast.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [01:03:03] One other thing. When I was excommunicated, you were excluded. I was excommunicated. Not for years. Susie and I had been together at this point for a lot of years. It was probably 2001, 2002. We were in McMinnville. The kids were in high school by this time, junior high and high school. They were 50, 50. With me and Brent, things were very good.

Video Clip 3 [01:03:26] They enjoyed being at both homes, enjoyed four parents, you know, raising them well. And I got a call from the bishop clerk saying, the bishop wants to talk to you. I'm like, by this time, I haven't been to church for, say, 15 years. I'm like, you know what, what about, would you like to come to his office, or would you like him to come to your home?

Video Clip 3 [01:03:51] I said, I guess come to my house. I mean, that's what I said. I wish I had said, there's no need, you know, I don't want to talk to the bishop. But I didn't. Still trained to obey. So he came knocking at the door.

Video Clip 3 [01:04:04] This was during the molten. This was during the Multnomah county, you can get married now, period. And Susie and I had just gotten married. And he came to the door and he said, could you come out on the porch? I mean, I just spent 45 minutes cleaning my living room for this man.

Video Clip 3 [01:04:19] Why don't you come in? Well, I'd be more comfortable if you came out on the porch. Then I remembered, oh, yeah, he's by himself. He can't come in to my home because I'm a single woman. And then so I went out on the porch just to make it easier for him. And he proceeded to excommunicate me. And he was very kind man. He was. I could tell he was uncomfortable. I could tell he didn't want to do this, that he was doing it

Video Clip 3 [01:04:46] because he did it on the porch.

Video Clip 3 [01:04:48] It was obligation. He did it on the porch because that. It was recently passed, that if you're a woman and didn't hold the priesthood, you didn't have to have a court. When Susie got excommunicated, she had to have a court. But times changed, and now if you're a woman, you don't have to have a court. You can just be excommunicated on your front porch.

Jillian Orr [01:05:08] Very convenient. So he said, he. He said, I don't even. I don't even know if that. I agree with this, but I'm going to excommunicate you because you're living in a way that's contrary to the teachings of the church. And if you're not willing to change that, then we'll Carry on with excommunication. So I said, go for that, let's do that. And he left and he apologized again. And then he said, you know, your kids are great. You've done a great job with your kids. You're welcome to church anytime. I'm like.

John Dehlin [01:05:39] And people are asking whether that's the married couple or a mother daughter pair. That's a mother daughter pair. That's not the married couple. So any quick comments on that story?

Kyle Ashworth [01:05:50] Just heartbreaking.

Jillian Orr [01:05:51] It is. And it's traumatizing. Like going to council, having people come address you and say these things like that is. I don't think you understand how traumatizing that is to hear from someone that you respect in a position that you're supposed to respect and honor.

Kyle Ashworth [01:06:04] Yeah. And in 2024, when we talk about witch hunt, the political climate has given that a whole new meaning. But when this was recorded and when this happened, that really was a witch hunt hunt. Yeah, that was. They were hunted down, they were found, and they, they were exclusively or specifically targeted. Targeted to be excommunicated. It's just gut wrenching. Just doesn't feel good.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:26] What do you think about women not needing court to be.

John Dehlin [01:06:30] They can be excused. They're not even important enough second class citizens.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:33] Oh my gosh.

Kyle Ashworth [01:06:34] It's a great point. And it's like for people who say, well, the church doesn't change, like our policies are consistent or the doctrine's consistent and policies follow. This is another example of how that's just untrue.

Jillian Orr [01:06:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] So that last one was like before Prop 8, before the Supreme Court decision. This next one, I think was right around the 2015 time period. Let's, let's roll that one.

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [01:07:02] He said you were going to have to leave your relationship or we're going to have to have a disciplinary council held. And I said, well, obviously I'm not going to divorce my wife and I'm not going to participate in a disciplinary council. And he said, well, I want you to pray about it and I will come back at the end of the month.

Video Clip 4 [01:07:23] So he's asking you to pray about leaving your wife.

Video Clip 4 [01:07:27] Wife, yes.

Video Clip 4 [01:07:29] And daughter.

Video Clip 4 [01:07:30] Yes.

Video Clip 4 [01:07:31] Okay.

Video Clip 4 [01:07:33] So he said, we can do it the gentle way and you can write a letter asking to have your membership taken out of the church. And I said, I don't want my membership relief from the church because I believe in God and I believe in some of the components of the church, not this particular one. And he said, well, I want you to pray about it and I'll be Back at the end of the month. And so that's. That's how we left it.

Video Clip 4 [01:08:02] Okay. And so that. That was when.

Video Clip 4 [01:08:05] That was February 8th, which was. Yes. That was two days before our 10th anniversary of our commitment ceremony. So that was, you know, that was a nice week.

Video Clip 4 [01:08:19] So that was. That was two weeks ago, basically.

Video Clip 4 [01:08:21] Yes.

Video Clip 4 [01:08:22] So how did that feel, to have the bishop come to you and say these things?

Video Clip 4 [01:08:26] That felt like a punch in my stomach. I came in the house, I was absolutely sobbing and I was out of breath, and I was just shocked, absolutely shocked, because I knew about the edict in November about, you know, them considering us apostates, but I didn't think it was going to turn into a witch hunt about coming to people's doors and giving them ultimatums. And I felt threatened and I felt intimidated, and when I get into those situations, I start crying. So I started sobbing with him standing there. And then I felt mad at myself when I came in that I didn't get angry. Instead, I cried.

John Dehlin [01:09:10] Yeah. And people just have to ask why? Why was Elizabeth Grimshaw and her partner treated this way? And then Charlie and Ryan are given callings and are allowed to take the sacraments and are left alone. What's the difference why? And if. And if the church is like, oh, we're. We're making progress. Great. Apologize to Elizabeth Grimshaw. Apologize to Jill and Katie Searle. Apologize to Dusty Johns. Apologize to the hundreds, if not thousands, if not tens of thousands of LGBTQ Mormons and ex Mormons that you had held witch hunts against and excommunicated and reinstate their membership.

Jillian Orr [01:09:47] That's what they want.

Guest 2 [01:09:48] Right.

Kyle Ashworth [01:09:49] And I also want to take that a little further and thank the Gerardos and Zachs, the Kyle and J's, the Jillian, who stood up in front of a commencement ceremony and said, I'm queer. Who got married, who were visible in this space for the podcasts, many podcasts like Mormon Stories and others who highlight topics like this, who create changes through advocacy and representation, through visibility, that these are all contributing factors to the difference between what happened yesterday and what is now happening today, in my opinion.

John Dehlin [01:10:23] Any other responses to that last clip? No. Okay, we'll. We'll play one more. This is one of the most heart wrenching episodes of Mormon Stories. It's Dusty Johns.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:33] And this is before his actual excommunication.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:36] But he ended up getting excommunicated. So we'll just play this clip last.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:40] And I don't think I played the. I didn't put the entire thing.

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [01:10:42] It Was pretty quick, all right. And he sat in our living room. And I said, bishop, I'm going to be very open with you. Here's where we're at. I kind of told him the brief story. And he goes, he goes, you taking the sacrament? And I said, we've decided that we should probably not. We weren't married at the time yet. And he goes, well, I don't see a reason why you shouldn't be taking sacrament. That's important. He goes, let me find out on that. Said, okay. He goes, we're going to love you. You're welcome. And he left. And Tate and I just bawled. We held each other just bald.

Video Clip 5 [01:11:12] Like maybe there's a change. Maybe we're not going to be angry. We're not going to be mad. We're not going to, you know, come in and make it being uncomfortable. We just want to be us. And so we kind of celebrated a little bit, told our families. I think that helped our families a little bit as well, and kept going to church.

Video Clip 5 [01:11:33] And I think the second or third time we went was state conference. And we got a new state president. The other stake president had been called. It was 70. And our stake president was new. And in the meantime, we'd had other people that came in. This is a cool story. Our very first Sunday there, we had a couple out of California that came in and they, the very first Sunday were Talking about Prop 8 and how good it was and how the church stood its ground and defended traditional marriage. And we just sat in the background and just kind of looked at each other. And after what we thought, you know, that was interesting.

Video Clip 5 [01:12:07] And it's too bad. I don't think she really understands or I don't think they really know much about what gay people are struggling with. And so we just kind of noted that. And a couple weeks after that, the husband of that couple started calling us Tate Dusty the rock band or something. He just really started befriending us.

Video Clip 5 [01:12:29] The Elders Quorum president, it over loving us, telling us his examples of gay people that he knows who've struggled this incredible amount of love. The ward members of every. Every Sunday we'd go and somebody new would come up, be like, hey, we've heard about you. Can we help you with anything? We love you. Like, just love. Just great. The ward itself has been perfect. Absolutely perfect.

Video Clip 5 [01:12:55] Perfect. And what's the name of the ward?

Video Clip 5 [01:12:58] Sage Lakes. Sage Lakes. Sage Lakes Ward in Idaho Falls Stake, North Stake, Idol Falls North Stake, I think, okay, Temple district. It's the temple it's the one right by the temple. And. So we're thinking, okay, maybe this is going to change. President Basic, the new stake president, comes and meets with us. Text us, hey, I need to meet with you guys. Can I come over right now? So we're like, you know, holding our breath. Come over. We're again, open, knowing that it's probably. We're thinking that eventually it may lead to excommunication, but that's not going to change who we are, what we are and what we want, right?

Video Clip 5 [01:13:37] And so he comes over. Nothing but love. Nothing but love. So the bishop calls me one day and says, hey, I know that President Basic is asking the upper higher ups what he should do. And they've been told to pause.

Video Clip 5 [01:13:54] And I said, why? He goes, like, all I know is that the Public affairs office is involved. Okay? And I think at that time we started hearing.

Video Clip 5 [01:14:04] This is back then in May.

Video Clip 5 [01:14:06] This is probably June.

Video Clip 5 [01:14:07] June. Okay.

Video Clip 5 [01:14:08] Yeah, probably June.

Video Clip 5 [01:14:09] Okay.

Video Clip 5 [01:14:10] And

Video Clip 5 [01:14:12] pause.

Video Clip 5 [01:14:12] What pause? Our disciplinary council, okay. That they were talking about it. Bishop told us that the stake president had been asking and that first he said that he asked one, and then they asked pretty high up. I don't know how high up, but several layers up in the 70. And they said, yes, proceed. So he was getting ready to call us, and then he got a letter from the Public affairs office saying, wait.

Video Clip 5 [01:14:35] So they start waiting. We're just waiting. And then the bishop. Bishop basically says. He even reads me the letter that says, and I don't mean. I don't mean for this. The bishop has been incredibly awesome, and he's expressed to us his frustration because he's kind of been like, what do we do? Hey, hey, help us understand. Like, do we. Do we disciplinary. Do we not? Can we give these guys a calling? We love these guys. We want to give them a calling, help us out. They haven't had any guidance. And so.

Video Clip 5 [01:15:04] So

Video Clip 5 [01:15:07] we find out that there's this letter that. From the. I think, from the Public affairs office that basically says, hey, we're from Idaho. This guy that writes, I'm from Idaho. I know the members there very well. We're going to leave this up to you, stake president. You decide what you want to do.

Video Clip 5 [01:15:22] And this is always, you know, this is second and third, you know, levels. I'm not hearing this firsthand from anybody. But the bishop had read. Gotten a letter, I think, from the stake president, and he was reading us parts of the letter.

Video Clip 5 [01:15:35] So we think, okay, we're waiting. And then we think, well, the bishop, the stake President came over and gave us nothing but love. He's been open. He's been kind and generous and says, we're always welcome. We think this is going to be okay.

Video Clip 5 [01:15:48] And then the stake president calls and says, we need to meet. And I didn't go to this meeting. Tate went to this meeting alone. I was at work or something. Something. And the b. The stake president basically told Tate that they needed to. That they were going, that they needed to do a disciplinary council, and that there. There were three options. No action, disfellowshipped or excommunicated. And I got the distinct feeling at that point that they wanted that it would be better for us if we were separated.

John Dehlin [01:16:22] And after we concluded this interview with Dusty, it was before they had actually been excommunicated.

Guest 2 [01:16:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:29] And I remember, Kyle, I think you might have been involved with this, where we reached up to our contacts to see if we could get someone to intervene, to stop. And this is right before the reversal of the November 15th policy.

Kyle Ashworth [01:16:43] I want to say it was like two weeks.

John Dehlin [01:16:45] Yeah. Two weeks before it was.

Kyle Ashworth [01:16:47] Yeah. And you're. I was listening. So Dusty called me right before the interview. He was freaking out. And I. I was staying here in Salt Lake. I was at the double tree, sitting in the little rotunda, like, tears rolling down my face, just listening to this episode and also knowing, like, how much we had worked and tried to help Dusty. And then he's excommunicated. And maybe even, I want to say, like, nine days. That's what keeps coming. Like, nine days later, the church reverses the policy. No longer mandatory excommunication. And this was. This was beyond. I mean, they had a chance to appeal. Just nothing. Like, nothing. Nothing came out of it.

John Dehlin [01:17:22] Yeah. Yeah. And I just thought for sure they were gonna, you know, pardon them and roll it back. Because it was like, two weeks later that they took same sex marriage off the mandatory excommunication list and put it on the optional.

Kyle Ashworth [01:17:36] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:17:36] But they just left it.

Guest [01:17:37] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:17:38] It's crazy. Jillian, what are you. What are you thinking?

Panel Reflections, Closing Thoughts, and Wrap-Up

Jillian Orr [01:17:41] Oh, there's just so much in my head. I just. I hurt for these people. I hurt for the experience that they're going through because.

Guest 2 [01:17:47] Because

Jillian Orr [01:17:50] it's painful to not feel welcomed and wanted and loved and treated fairly, and it just hurts. It just hurts. I just feel for these couples, too, for the confusion they feel, for the unsurity of feeling wanted or important or significant. So I just. Every new video I'm just watching. It's just painful. Where some women are excommunicated right there on the porch and they don't even get a speak to anyone. No one witnesses it. Like it's just then and there, it's like, how disrespectful, how, how belittling would that feel? And then others, you have to wait. It's a game of ping pong, of like, when do we decide?

Jillian Orr [01:18:28] What are the rules? We don't really know who's gonna decide. And it's. I don't know, it's just interesting to see now how it is hopefully shifting and that this can be a permanent thing that gets to change because and for the sake of everyone and for the sake of the mental health and for the happiness of people, I think it's only fair.

Kyle Ashworth [01:18:48] And Gillian brings up a really good point about this, like the visibility and optics of it. So for a lesbian couple in Nowhereville America, you can be excommunicated on your front porch, but for somebody like Dusty, who was a radio DJ and a very well known Idaho public figure, church PR has to get involved and they have to weigh the schedule of excommunication based on public relations.

Kyle Ashworth [01:19:15] Laurie Lee hall, another great example of how the chief architect who designed some of Mormonism's most iconic buildings, they have to navigate this very discreetly in order to make this thing work. And then goes back to our discussion about Charlie. So was somebody with that type of a following and that much visibility, what do you do do, like, how do you navigate. This isn't September 6th territory. This is a much brighter, bolder, wider audience. It's very interesting, a very interesting time to be a Latter Day Saint leader.

John Dehlin [01:19:47] Yeah. And going back to Laurie Lee Hall, I'm pretty confident that if her experience had happened now where she is a church employer, you know, assigned male at birth, decides to transition, transitions in her ward, you know, she wouldn't, she wouldn't have been excommunicated in 2024.

Kyle Ashworth [01:20:08] And she would have said, Lori Lee hall is in my, the latter gay stories chat side. And she said, I would have stayed, I would have stayed in the church.

John Dehlin [01:20:14] So like, again, what's outrageous is this. The Mormon Church allows this bishop roulette, where if you've got privilege or if you've got the right bishop, or if you're in Cambridge or Berkeley or Brooklyn or Manhattan or certain privileged parts of Utah, you get a pass. And then if you're not so lucky to get the right bishop or the right stake president or live in the right region or be popular or famous or wealthy enough, you know, you might get different treatment. And that just feels unchristlike. Like, wasn't Christ's whole message, everyone's equal. No one's better than anybody else. The poor should be treated with as much love as the wealthy and the rich. Didn't he condemn the rich?

Kyle Ashworth [01:20:59] Perhaps that's the difference between Bethlehem and 50 North Temple.

Jillian Orr [01:21:02] Did he do it on their porch? Did he condemn them on their porches, though? No, I. And from my experience, to be honest, I. Looking back, I probably would not have left the church if it had been so welcoming to the LGBTQ community at the time.

John Dehlin [01:21:14] I was gonna ask that.

Jillian Orr [01:21:15] At the time, that was the biggest thing. And when I had come out as queer and started to identify these things within me, I did start to research and learn. I mean, a lot of it was from the content that you guys posted in Latter Gay Podcast was with the history of where they stand with the queer community. And it was. It blew my mind. And I. It hurt so bad to see where we stand and where our future is or where we fit in the celestial kingdom and all that aspects. But had I not been. Had it been more welcoming, I probably would have stayed.

Jillian Orr [01:21:45] Which, to be honest, for me, at this point, I'm grateful that it wasn't the case. I'm grateful there was a contrast, and I'm grateful that I'm in a position now where I'm happier than I was before and being queer and seeing the contrast and the split of what's going

Kyle Ashworth [01:21:59] on and more and more content like this is coming out and more exposure like that. I know Lori Lee hall is writing a book, and her book will be out very soon about her experience. Nathan Kitchen, the former president of Affirmation, is writing a book that's talking about that.

Kyle Ashworth [01:22:15] There's just so many lately that have come out to share these experiences and this intersection, that LGBTQ Avenue and LDS street and how that intersection has impacted them and really changed not just an individual. This is probably one thing, one blind spot the Mormon Church didn't expect when they thought they could just get rid of a single LGBTQ member, especially with the November 2015 policy. This is one way of just getting rid of the queer member and kind of thinning the hurt a little bit. But what they didn't expect was that it took the whole family. When one queer person left the church, it took their whole family with them.

Kyle Ashworth [01:22:47] That person left. And their mom and dad and brothers and sisters and aunts and uncles. It was a mass exodus out of the church, and I think it was an unintended consequence that probably led to the kind of the reversal or the change of the 2015 policy. But it is absolutely something that the church has never been able to recover from.

Jillian Orr [01:23:04] That's what affected my family so much. Like that made a huge impact on us. First, my older brother. I mean, out of seven kids, I mean, seven kids in my family, six of us are out. And it was a huge piece was the how the queer community is seen and perceived and treated was not just for me, but for my straight siblings who are like, whoa, that's not okay. We're not okay with this. And it's still controversial with how that's being seen.

John Dehlin [01:23:29] And that's part of a bummer that it wasn't probably so much that the church was sad about how it was treating its LGBTQ members. It's more that the church was realizing that this was having collateral damage amongst the straight membership.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:42] Right.

John Dehlin [01:23:43] And that's when they realized they needed to make changes. And that's sad. Plus when they were embarrassed publicly by all the disastrous media relations. So we need to start wrapping up. I'm going to just ask everyone really quick, Please subscribe on Latter Day stories, YouTube, Facebook. Please subscribe to Mormon stories, YouTube and Facebook. Please comment, please like, please share this. That'll help with the algorithms.

John Dehlin [01:24:06] I'm going to just wrap up really quickly and give. Give all you guys a chance to wrap up as well. But for me, I just want to say the. The. Our hearts today are. Are not in any way to call out Ryan and Charlie to have anything bad. We are here to celebrate. We are here to say congratulations, Charlie and Ryan, on your beautiful marriage. Congratulations that you have helped break through the barrier, the glass ceiling where you have succeeded in obtaining callings, taking the sacrament and being accepted and embraced as active same sex married people. Congratulations to you. Congratulations to your bishop. Congratulations to your stake president, to all the ward and stake members that have supported it.

Guest 2 [01:24:57] It.

John Dehlin [01:24:57] And congratulations to the LDS Church, because we know you know about Charlie, we know you know about these other five, six, ten couples out there. And we feel very confident, we're very hopeful that that 2024 represents a sea change where the Mormon Church begins embracing and accepting its same sex married couples, not in a full fellowship, but into partial fellowship, which is a really important step towards full fellowship. So congratulations, Charlie and Ryan. Congratulations, Mormon Church. Please keep it going. Okay, Kyle, what do you want to say?

Kyle Ashworth [01:25:37] I want to do a different round of congratulations. I want to congratulate the Latter day Saints, the 74% of the latter Day Saint community who support same sex marriage in Utah, a surprising and strong contingent of Latter Day Saints who believe that that marriage can be defined more than one way. I also want to congratulate people like Natalie Klein, April Despain, Michelle Tanner, Brother Matson.

Kyle Ashworth [01:26:05] I want to congratulate Jacob Hanson for realizing that their predominant narrative in Mormonism isn't sustainable. And they've realized very quickly that the only way now to try to make a difference is be the loudest one in the room when so many other Latter Day Saints, an overwhelming majority, support queer experiences because likely there's a family member within their own home who sit at their own kitchen table who experiences something along this spectrum. So I want to congratulate those who are now kind of in their last ditch effort to try to hold the banner high, but in reality they're realizing that the contingent of Mormonism is moving in a different direction and that further congratulation goes out.

Kyle Ashworth [01:26:46] Again, I've said it multiple times in this episode. To the queer community who continue to remain visible, who continue to show up, who continue to wear their lapel pins, who continue to be visible in their communities, both religiously and publicly and civically in all these areas, to say, I am who I am, I am not alone, I am not broken, and I have better days ahead. Contrary to what you believe, I am not all the things that your church taught about me, those are the areas that I want to congratulate. And again, like people, including Charlie and Ryan in this as well, who continue to break those ceilings and continue to take us to higher and loftier areas.

Kyle Ashworth [01:27:25] To me, I think that's why we do what we do and this is our labor of love. So thank you to all of those people.

John Dehlin [01:27:30] Beautiful, Gillian.

Jillian Orr [01:27:32] I think the biggest thing for me is recognizing those who do sit down and sit within their own knowing. You know, even Charlie, identifying his sexuality, choosing a husband, choosing what is best for him, what is happiest for him. That is the, that's the base of my message, is wherever you're at in your journey and whatever truth is going to shift is trusting your gut and trusting the information that you feel is right, regardless of any entity or other person, and just challenging the things that don't feel right and sticking to what your gut is, you know, sticking to what feels right. And those are the groups of people that I recognize and that I want to congratulate because we're all doing the best that we understand how to. And information changes and we get to change our minds as information Comes. And I love that for a lot of people.

John Dehlin [01:28:16] And check out me and Jillian on jubilee. Middle ground. Ex Mormons versus Mormons on Sunday. Right, Jillian?

Jillian Orr [01:28:23] Sunday.

John Dehlin [01:28:24] All right, Gerardo, you get the last word, the penultimate word, Because I get the last word.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:29] Yes.

Guest [01:28:30] So.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:31] Well, just really short, I think I just want to say, if you are laddering Latter day saying LGBT person who believes in the church, who wants to stay active in the church, and you're not receiving this same treatment, please message us. We want to help. We want to make sure that you're getting the same treatment that these other people, including Charlie and Ryan, are getting. And we can probably figure out ways to help out with that, because I think that's why we want to highlight this. We want everyone to receive the same treatment that. That Ryan and Charlie are. Are getting.

Jillian Orr [01:29:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:07] Beautiful.

Kyle Ashworth [01:29:08] It's a great point. Thank you.

Jillian Orr [01:29:09] We all support that.

John Dehlin [01:29:10] Yeah. And I'll just say, you know, on a really serious note, 10 thousands, if not tens of thousands of LGBTQ Mormons have lost their lives in this battle. And, you know, affirmation comes before us. There are a lot of activists and LGBT people and family members that have paid enormous sacrifices long before social media, podcasts, Facebook, Carolyn Pearson, for example, whose shoulders we stand on. So love and, you know, gratitude for everyone who sacrificed to make all this

Jillian Orr [01:29:50] possible and honoring the grief in it.

John Dehlin [01:29:52] Yeah. All right, well, please check out Latter Gay Stories. Kyle Ashworth on Latter Gay Stories. Kyle.

Kyle Ashworth [01:29:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:30:00] Thanks for joining us.

Kyle Ashworth [01:30:00] Thank you again. Thanks for the invite. I. Jillian, Gerardo, John, thank you. Like, just a.

John Dehlin [01:30:05] Great.

Kyle Ashworth [01:30:06] Just. Just good people.

John Dehlin [01:30:08] Likewise.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:09] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:30:09] Thanks, Jillian. Stay in touch. And Gerardo, thanks, man.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:12] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:30:13] All right, thanks ever for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Thanks to Maven and Julia and Brooklyn for helping out and Gerardo and, you know, please spread the words far and wide. Please send this. This podcast to your bishop and stake presidents and let them all know that change is afoot so they can be educated, and that will help get the word out. Hopefully, someday the church will make some public statement letting everyone know what. What's allowed, what's going on. But until that happens, just spread this podcast far and wide. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.