Introduction and Session Opening

Guest [00:00:01] Thank you for attending session 311 titled Turning the Mic on A Celebration of Ten Years of Mormon Stories. In this session, Feminist Mormon Housewives podcaster Lindsay Hanson park will host a Mormon Stories interview with John Dehlin about his most recent Mormon story being excommunicated from the LDS Church. John Dehlin recently received his Ph.D. in clinical counseling and psychology from Utah State University. He. He is the creator of several Mormon themed podcasts, blogs and websites, including the Mormon Stories podcast. Lindsey Hanson park is a women's rights activist, a feminist blogger, and an advocate against gender violence. She is the assistant director for the Sunstone Education foundation and the founder of the Feminist Mormon Housewives podcast. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, npr, the Los Angeles Times, and many Utah publications. So I'm going to turn the time over to Lindsay to conduct this interview. And if there is any time after they are finished for Q and A, we ask people to come up to this mic. It's a live mic. We want to get everything documented and recorded. So if you have any questions, please just form a line at the microphone here when it comes to that.

Guest [00:01:18] All right?

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:01:21] Good morning, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] Good morning, Lindsay.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:01:23] I want you to pretend that it's just you and me here today, okay? Because I'm so grateful that you decided to meet with me today. So I have some questions for you and I feel like we should just get started. So, number one, do you believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost? And do you have a firm testimony of the restored gospel?

John Dehlin [00:01:45] It's complicated.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:01:50] Okay. Well, actually, I think it's so great to be with you today. 10 years. Let's give him a hand for 10 years, you guys. And it's kind of adorable to see him nervous. That's because, you know, I'm going to ask him very personal questions about, you know, if he's being chased and looking at pornography. So. Okay, I'm not. I'm kidding. I'm not going to do that. Actually, I have a lot of questions as an interviewer, but I'm hoping that we can ask some questions that you guys have wanted to know, and if not, you'll be able to talk on the mic. But can you just start telling us about when you started? What was your goal for the podcast?

John Dehlin [00:02:43] First of all, thanks to all of you for coming on a Saturday morning at 9am to hear this interview. And thank you, Lindsey, for sponsoring it, Micah. And for everyone here. So many listeners will probably know that when I went through A really kind of serious faith crisis in Microsoft right around 2000, 2001 and thereafter it was so difficult. And I went out to a message board at Microsoft of all their internal Mormon employees and I'm like, did you guys know that Joseph Smith had multiple wives? And it was a really inappropriate thing to be doing in a workplace. But that was a testament to how traumatic all this was for me. I was trying to teach seminary and it was just so awful. And almost immediately many of these Microsoft employees would ask for kind of time with me and ask for help and they would disclose, you know, addictions and marital problems and mental illness. And it really, it was traumatic enough for what happened with me and my own family, but it didn't take but a month to see how many other people were struggling. And just ironically, I found Sunstone Online way back then and that was an important motivator for me. You know, I found the 10 year anniversary presentations given by the September 6th that were given at Sunstone and in 2004, this is right around 2004, 2005, and they inspired me really. And after I tried to talk to my bishop and tried to talk to family members and there was really no one who could understand well enough, I just decided to leave Microsoft and to try and follow the example of the people who had come before me and try and make a difference. So I definitely think the main goal was to help, try and help people through their transition. I kind of figured that if I, if I could try and process my own transition in a bit of a public way, other people would be able to kind of join me for the ride and together we would all kind of figure this out and come to a constructive conclusion. It was a bit of a naive endeavor. I also, I think I also began with an incentive to help people stay in the church. I had been very much influenced by Lowell Bennion, T. Edgar Lyon, Eugene England, people like that. And I felt like if we could just talk about these things, people wouldn't have to leave. And so those are the main reasons I started.

Why Some People Cannot Stay Silent About Faith Issues

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:05:41] So what is it about that though, that, I mean, people like you and me, we find out this stuff, like we can't be quiet about it. Most normal people go through the faith crisis. They try to hide it from their family, try to be quiet. Why is it that you had to talk about it publicly?

John Dehlin [00:06:00] Man, that's a really good question. I think. I don't know. I'd have to psychoanalyze myself and I'm not very good at that. I think that when my parents were divorced in middle school, that was particularly traumatic for me.

Guest [00:06:24] And

John Dehlin [00:06:26] I think that part of what I felt was that if people could talk more and share openly things they're struggling with, that maybe pain could be averted. And I just. I come from a very open family, and it's just part of who I am. And so it was scary, but I think I just believe that if you can talk things through, you can make a difference. And I just wanted to help as many people as possible. That was. Honestly, it's not that I love attention. It's not that I. I wanted to kind of reap a bit of the whirlwind that I reaped, but I just honestly have always wanted to help the most amount of people with anything I do. So I think it's efficiency more than anything.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:07:21] Yeah, I think you and I are like that. I mean, we've talked about this, about how we've experienced the sickness of staying quiet. Right. And so when you do that, you just. You can't stay quiet anymore. So that was your goal. You started off, like, just really wanting to help other people understand it, maybe discuss this, help people realize that they have community. Did that change over time? 10 years? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:50] I definitely went through some pretty severe ups and downs. I don't think the goal of alleviating suffering, promoting awareness of difficult issues, and encouraging growth. I don't think those goals ever changed. But there were times where I really desperately wanted to find a way to stay personally and help other people stay. But then there would be interviews that I would have that would really shake me because, you know, you think you know Mormon church history when you're 19, and then you think you know church history when you're 25, and then you think you know church history when you're 31. And sometimes the rabbit hole just keeps going down and down and down. And so some of the interviews that I did were very disturbing to me personally and emotionally. And most importantly, once I started traveling around the world, and no matter where I'd go, I'd be in London and, you know, a friend would reach out to me and say, hey, I'll pick you up at the airport. I will drive you to every business meeting you have. You can stay in my house. All I want to do is to be able to talk to you on the car rides between sort of where you're going. And this happened in China, this happened in Boston. This happened sort of everywhere I went. And every time the story was the same. Well, it's different but the same it's. My wife is about to leave me. You know, I was anorexic. You know, I'm gay, and my wife doesn't know, and I'm thinking about killing myself. And when you just tap into so much pain and suffering, it really does make you angry. And I think if I had regrets, I think it's been the times where I've lost my objectivity or I've lost. I've sounded frustrated, but I really do attribute that to just the overwhelming burden of the pain that I was tapping into and the frustration that I didn't see. You know, I think ideally the church would have, like, saw after a couple years that this was a need, and then they would have started filling it, because I think we made that pretty obvious in the first year or two. But they didn't. And so I think I just started getting really angry about how people were allowed to kind of keep suffering. And so there were times where I had to really check my motives, whether that was trying to keep people to stay, or sometimes where I'm like, I want to burn the whole thing down. And maintaining my attempt at objectivity for as well as I may or may not have done that was one of the hardest things about it.

Criticism, Money, and the Cost of Running Mormon Stories

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:10:45] Well, I want to talk about that for a minute because this idea of, like, staying or burning things down is like a very Mormon thing, right? It's very binary. It's like black and white. And, like, I'm trying to be the place where, like, I got both of those going on right now. But you people ask me how I have avoided so much criticism, and I think, honestly, this is gonna sound bad, but I learned a lot from you and your mistakes.

Guest [00:11:12] Really?

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:11:12] No, no, no, no, it's true. You were one of the first that had to go out there and do this. And you have taken an amazing amount of criticism. And one of the things that people criticize you for is maybe flip flopping or going back and forth. And when John changes his mind or changes his position, the Internet loses its mind. Right? Which is absurd to me, because as we're talking, it's a journey and it's a process. And every single one of us in here feels one way about things on a certain day, and other factors come in. So let's talk about that criticism and how it affected you, because you have had a lot. I mean, you've had a lot of praise. So not to say that people don't like you, but let's talk about the criticism and the mean things people have Said and done. As you're going through this journey and as you're quietly behind closed doors dealing with people who are calling you and. And wanting to commit suicide at 3am in the morning and waking you up.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] Yeah. Yeah. There have been some really, really, really hard things said. I'm trying to think of some of the worst. One was, I think, when an apologist kind of accused me of, like, spiritual. They called me like a spiritual Jack Kevorkian.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:12:24] Oh, golly. People are fun. They're just fun.

John Dehlin [00:12:39] I think there was some comment about. Oh, a lot of comments about being bipolar or schizophrenic or, you know, grandiosity calling me a meteor whore. I mean, honestly, I understand where people are coming from when they say things like that, that this is all about attention. Those are some of the hardest things, I think. But I always go back and forth on that because I think I have at least enough introspection to know that if you put yourself out there, if you make yourself a public figure, if you jump into the arena, you can't really whine and complain when people are hurt, especially when you're dealing with issues as sensitive as religion. So I think that's been an overriding thought that I have to remind myself of sometimes. I've deserved the criticism. Most of the time. I think I've deserved a lot of criticism as well. But, you know, one of the weird things I think. I don't think that a lot of the listeners hung in for hundreds of episodes to learn about what Joseph Smith did in this or that time period or to, you know, to fixate on this or that. I do think that. I do think that people really just kind of like reality TV a little bit. I think people sometimes got a little bit fused with my story as I was going through the interviews, and they would kind of be with me in the highs and lows. And if I was sort of really favorable for the church, but then I would take a downturn, I think they would. I think many people would just kind of take that personally, like it was an affront on where they were. And if somebody. And most importantly, if I was really feeling good about the church, I think that would make others who weren't able to make the church work feel very angry, like I was selling out or like I was. Like I was giving people false hope or something. So I think it's been deeply sad and difficult at times to be criticized. I do think I've developed some thick skin, but I think I understand where the criticisms come from. I Don't think I really blame people. And I do have to say that the generosity and the kindness overwhelms the negativity. As much negativity as you may have witnessed, or I may have witnessed the generosity and the kindness floods and overwhelms the negativity.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:15:21] Well, when I first met you, I was in the faith crisis mode. And it was crisis. I mean, it was a crisis. And I did this thing where, like, you, I transferred all my prophet leadership worship to you. Right. And I hate to say this, but, like, a lot of Mormons do this, like, a Mormon thing. Don't do this. Mormons. So. And then, you know, I met John as, like, a guy, and, like, if I saw John make a mistake or do something he didn't like, I was like, what? Faith crisis all over again? And so we've talked about this a lot, how people make people profits and that kind of thing in the community. Do you feel a sort of responsibility to the community? Because I've noticed, like, you're authentic and you share your authentic goals, but there's this whole audience that rides with it. So do you feel a responsibility to, like, maybe separate and have a public Persona versus a private one? Do you have conflicts with the authenticity there? I know that a lot of people that struggle with this question on how to be authentic and sincere and honest while not, you know, taking. Taking everyone for the ride. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:16:36] Yeah. It has been weird. It's been hard to have people. Yeah. To have people be so generous and kind sometimes in what they have to say. Because I'm so aware of our history, and I'm so aware of the ways that leaders in the past have taken advantage of that in ways that aren't useful. And it's a very heady thing to, you know, it's a very heady thing to be in China or in Home Depot or wherever. And to have someone. Or, like, Central park, you know, and to have someone recognize you and to, like, tell you that you saved their life or you changed their life. And for me, this really came to a head in 2011 when I started holding Mormon stories conferences, regional meetings, and we traveled to various cities. And it was really hard because I wanted to help. The most important thing I wanted to try and do was to build community, because I knew, even as a mental health professional that. That I'm not gonna be healing people. Right. I can help them find healing to some degree, but what was really gonna heal people was them finding others like them. Face to face, lunch to lunch, soul to soul. Heart to heart. And building little communities of support. And so when I started these little conferences, that was a major goal, was to help build up something in Phoenix and build up something in Boise and build up something in. In Salt Lake city and Washington, D.C. so that people. Because I couldn't. I couldn't. I have 60,000 unread emails to this date. I. There's no way that I could have reached all the people. But then when we'd have these conferences and we'd end with people sharing their sort of uncorrelated testimonies, people would like bear their testimonies about me. Yeah. And on the one hand, it's incredibly exhilarating. I mean, you just can't imagine how maybe many of you can in your various respects, but you can't imagine how incredibly exhilarating it feels to have people treat you like, I'm sure some small degree what they've treated other leaders, you know, and it can really go to your head very quickly. And I just. And by 2012, you know, there were a lot of things happening, but part of it was. It just became too much for me personally. And in 2012, my family started to fall apart and Margi and I started to wonder whether we were going to be able to make it. And, yeah, I started. I made some really big mistakes during that time period, mistakes I thought I'd never make. And that's, you know, it was a hard decision to pull the plug at the time on those communities and on those conferences. I feel like I really hurt a lot of people. We had so much momentum. I think Mormon stories grossed like $200,000 that one year. I didn't take that as income. There was a lot of expenses in running these conferences, but there's so much momentum and so much excitement and it was such a rush. But I also knew that I wasn't sure I was big enough for that task. And I withdrew because I did not want to create the same problems that so many people had been facing in their lives. I didn't want to recreate it. And I knew that I could be taking people down that path. So that was a really hard hit for me and for everyone. And I do apologize to everyone that I hurt during that time, including my own family.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:20:38] All the John Dehlin faith crises you started.

John Dehlin [00:20:41] I did, I did. I disappointed a lot of people for a lot of reasons. But I was. To be honest, one of the crazy things is as you face sort of your biggest nightmare, as you disappoint the people you Love and people who put faith in you. There was a sense of relief because I knew that I was disabusing them of the notion that I deserve that type of worship. And that was an important thing for me to kind of face and to stick with, because I said, what's the best way to get rid of this problem? It's to sort of lay it all out there and be crucified, so to speak. And so, yeah, people are still very generous, but I think we dodged a bullet a little bit in avoiding what could have been a lot worse.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:21:39] So you brought up money, and I want to talk about money, because Mormons get super weird about money, right? Everything's supposed to be free. We have lay leadership. Right. We don't have leaders that take money. And so when people ask for donations online, I've experienced this myself, I've noticed that's another thing that people lose their minds about. So do you want to talk about. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Just about how you ask for donations and sort of the criticism you had for that. Because I'm a big advocate and defender of you with this, obviously, because I asked for donations, too. But in feminism, it's a big principle. People should get paid for the work that they do, and it's work. So talk about some of the criticisms you got.

John Dehlin [00:22:29] When I started. When I started Mormon stories, I was just. I had a. I had a. Honestly, I just sort of lost a position at Utah state around 2005. And, you know, I'd gone. I'd gone from making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year at Microsoft to making, like $10,000 a year. And I had four kids, and it was just, you know, to buy equipment. And all the time I was spending, you know, I at least needed to recover my costs. And so that's how the donations started. I felt like that was fair and that. And honestly, the generosity was really quite significant. So that within the first couple years, you know, I think it started to grow to, like, $5,000, $10,000, even $20,000. And that would have been less than $5 an hour. That would have been like a dollar an hour for my efforts. And the money that I could have made, I mean, having worked for Microsoft, having worked for mit, the amount of money that I could have made, it wasn't about the money at all. But when my wife and my kids are missing me and I'm traveling all the time, having a little bit of money come in just makes Margi and the kids kind of feel like it's not just all sacrifice. Like, there's at least a little bit of compensation. And then. Then when I went back to school, like in 2009, I decided to go back and get my PhD. I had shut down Mormon Stories, but they offered, you know, they offer university students this horrible trade where it's like, we'll pay you $10 an hour to teach a course or to be a research assistant, and you just can't survive on that money. And I just thought, crazy, you know, I could. I can teach this class to 30 students or, like, I could bring Mormon Stories back. The pain didn't stop. I could bring Mormon Stories back and try and help thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people. I could help save marriages. I could help prevent suicide. I could help prevent, you know, depression and anxiety. And so I really. It was just a total act of faith and trust. And I just said, listeners, I don't know if any of you remember that episode where I made that offer. I just said, if you guys will support me, I won't take an assistantship. And at the time, that's a big deal. You don't get a tuition reimbursement if you take an assistantship. And, you know, I'm putting myself at the mercy of you guys who didn't pay directly for what you received and who could cancel at any time. So I feel like I took a big risk, and my listeners were extremely generous. And all I can say is I don't think people would have paid for something they didn't maybe find valuable. And I'm super grateful that money went directly to. I was not. I did my best to make sure that there would be no questions about the use of the money from the start. I said, this money will go to food on my table, meth, amphetamines. It will go to

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:25:30] feels good method.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] That came later.

Guest [00:25:41] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:25:45] No, but I did. I used the money for food, groceries. I had to provide my own health insurance for my family of six, home repairs. I mean, that's what the money went for. And I hope you feel, for those of you who contributed, I hope you feel like what you received was worth what you contributed.

Family, Marriage, and the Impact of a Faith Journey

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:26:14] Well, that brings up another question, because you talked about your family, and I don't want you to go into too much, because I know they deserve the right to tell their own story. But, Justin, I'm the same way that the donations that I get are really for my family to be like, hey, mom's not crazy. She's, like, actually doing something. So talk about the impact that this has had on your family to the extent that you can.

John Dehlin [00:26:41] I mean, as I've already alluded to. Mormon stories almost, you know, I. My parents were divorced. That's kind of what defined me growing up. The last thing I ever wanted to do was to have that happen in my family. And even though Margi and I had a really tough first seven years and ups and downs for the next seven to 10 years, we both brought to our marriage a lot of, I guess, trauma from our past lives that made us both really scared to fully trust each other. And so the hardest part about Mormon stories was the fact that I derived so much strength from all of you. When you would reach out and talk to me, it made me feel worthwhile, it made me feel validated. And all that time, Margi was sort of in her own way, screaming out to me, saying, pay attention to me, you know, why can't you care enough? Why can't you care as much about me as you care about your listeners? Why can't you talk to me? Why can't you listen to me with the same level of focus and attention that you give your listeners? And with all the travel and all the distractions. Like I said, By 2011, 2012, we were very close to calling it quits. And to some extent my kids were shielded from a lot of this. But over time, it started to bleed into my kids lives. And honestly, it's hard enough to be a teenager, to have your dad be in the newspapers and people start whispering things about your dad. It is a really traumatic thing for your kids. The happy side of that that I can say with, with total truth and conviction is that once Margi and I hit the really, really hard spots, 2012, 2013, it was sink or swim. And if any of you noticed that I pulled back, I stopped answering emails, I became a lot more insular. It's because I was investing in my marriage. And Margi and I, for the first time were learning to be vulnerable with each other and learning to trust each other. My work and my PhD, which you guys funded, gave me maybe a little bit of insight into some of my blind spots. And that helped me maybe gain a little bit more of the perspective that would allow me to work and heal my marriage. And as painful as it's been, Margi and I for the past two or three years have had an amazing love affair. And she's my soulmate.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:29:38] Gross. I'm just kidding.

Guest [00:29:42] Tmi.

John Dehlin [00:29:43] Tmi.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:29:46] I'm kidding. Margi, I love you.

John Dehlin [00:29:47] Oh, that's good. It's true. And as hard as she's my soulmate now, and I have more stories to thank for that, honestly. And while it's been really hard on my kids, I think my children, I think it's been good for them. As much weakness as we have, I think it's been good for them to see their parents stand up for things they believe in. And, you know, you think teens would immediately get it, or even children, but they don't. They're just like, I don't want to deal with this, Dad. I don't want people bugging you while we're at McDonald's. We don't go to McDonald's when we're at the, you know, I don't want people when we're at the movies. I don't want to have to stand while people come up to you, or I don't want to have to go to school. And, you know, they don't. They don't understand, even though you think they do. But over time, as I've seen them kind of mature, I do think they have perceived their parents as being people who are willing to stand up for those who maybe are struggling or in need of support. And I think they see parents who went through hard things and are willing to become stronger as a result. And I think that they share a lot of the values that Mormon Stories has tried to engender. Love and appreciation for LGBT people, for women's issues, for truth and openness and honesty and candor. And I, you know, I have to believe, and maybe this is self delusion, but I have to believe that my kids are better for having been through that. So it's bittersweet, but I think it's good overall. I'm sure it is.

Excommunication and Its Personal Aftermath

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:31:37] Well, I want to ask about the excommunication and how that affected you and your family. And like, I have more questions, but I think that there's probably going to be a lot of questions here. So let's talk about the excommunication. What it was like going for it. You know, one of the things I heard was John courted his excommunication and was asking for this. And I have a lot of thoughts on excommunication, but that's. We don't have time for that. So let's talk about the excommunication leading up to it. If you felt like you were really poking the bear and asking them to excommunicate you and then how it affected you and your family afterwards. And if you were surprised at how

Speaker F [00:32:13] you felt

John Dehlin [00:32:15] yeah, the minute I bought the microphone, you know, I'm sitting there in 2005, I don't know anything about podcasting. I met, you know, musician's friend or whatever it is, and I'm like, oh, what's a microphone that I should buy? You know, the immediate thought that came into my head was the September 6th. I mean, I was at BYU when the September 6th were excommunicated. I. I saw them hold a little meeting at a Provo Hotel, like a press conference with Paul Toscano and others sort of advocating for, I think it was, academic freedom at byu. But that was a very tumultuous time. And it was in my memory. I had watched the videos of Lavina and Michael Quinn and Maxine and the others share their experiences. And when I was at byu, they seemed really scary and kind of dangerous to me. You know, I was curious, but I was still very conservative in certain parts of my brain. But after I watched their 10 years reflection on their excommunications, I saw them as heroes. It was a lot like Malcolm X. Like, in high school, they had taught me that Malcolm X was this evil, wicked, violent person. But then I read his autobiography, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, I totally get why he was angry, you know, and I get why he did the things he did. And I saw him as courageous. It was a very similar thing with the September six. And so how could I not have that on my mind the very first moment that I bought the microphone? So, yeah, I felt like I was poking the bear from the very moment that I started Mormon stories. But nothing happened for nine years, right? I mean, obviously there were times where my bishop would, you know, call me in and say, I'm hearing hard things. But then I would reach out to you guys and say, send emails or letters about how I've helped you stay in the church. And I would get hundreds and eventually thousands of emails and letters. So I'm like, you know, and so over time, I felt like they're not going to do anything. You know, this is kind of cool. Like, we were past that. I mean, I really felt like we were past that. And then for me, it all kind of unraveled in 2013, the fall of 2013, if I have my dates, right? That was when, you know, Proposition 8 had happened. We had gone through, you know, a couple Romney campaigns or whatever, and

Guest [00:34:53] it

John Dehlin [00:34:54] seemed like the church had really backed off of opposing same sex marriage, of, you know, it started opening up with its history. It started being more candid. And I'm like, we're moving in the right direction. And as I would sit in church with torment about how can I stay? What about the people suffering? What do I do? What I said to myself in my mind is, as long as. As long as the church is moving in the right direction and I could be 100% open with how I think and feel. That's a tax. Then I'm willing to pay the tax of my affiliation with the church, with my support of the church, even with some of my tithing, I'm willing to pay that tax because I'm benefiting from my affiliation. I love being a Mormon. I love my family's benefiting from it. And if I'm open and vocal and the church is moving in the right direction, then everything's fine. But in 2013, Elder Oaks gave a really disappointing talk for me in General Conference. And it was basically kind of retrenching on the whole traditional family thing. And I just, you know, that's when I typed Oaks fail on a Facebook post. I just said, that's not going to be acceptable. If I stay a member, if I give money, if I give time, and they're going to continue either retrenching or moving in the wrong direction, then I have to. I don't know. I just. I kind of lost my temper a little bit. So that's when I gave my TED Talk. That's when I created my ordained women profile. And it wasn't two months from my ordained women profile and my TED Talk that my bishop called me in in January of 2014 and said, we're starting an investigation. And he specifically mentioned ordained women and a website that I created called Progressive Mormons as the reason for why he was starting the investigation.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:36:47] Women are scary, man.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] Yeah, women are scary. Yeah. So I did get more strident. But when I wrote that comment Oaks fail, I expected, like, you know, people, some people not to like it. But the incredible backlash I received from just simply making a really modest. What I felt, a modest criticism. I felt like it was disproportionate and kind of scary. And I thought, wow, if people are so scared to even make subtle criticisms that are public and named, that's a problem in and of itself. And so I said, I'm going to be publicly open about my doubts and disbelief more than I ever have. I'm laying it all out on the table.

Guest [00:37:33] And.

John Dehlin [00:37:33] And when I feel like the brethren merit criticism, I'm going to offer it. And, you know, that's when it all. That's when the heat.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:37:42] That's when your love affair and you started to court your church court and your love affair with your court of love began.

Guest [00:37:49] Yeah,

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:37:51] it's a romance. It's romantic.

John Dehlin [00:37:55] But the crazy thing is we remained active in the church up through that June. And then when they called the disciplinary council, that's when things got crazy. But just to. That was a really long answer. But the excommunication was a terrible thing. It's inhumane. It's dehumanizing. It's so impersonal. They don't look you in the eye. They don't show genuine love. They don't have any interest in what you have to say or what you feel or what your journey. When they gave us a little bit of time to talk, the High Council, they'd stare off into the distance. They would put up a blockade so that they wouldn't have to actually feel anything about your story.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:38:42] Why did you go?

John Dehlin [00:38:45] I just felt like for me, I understand why people don't go. For me, it almost felt like a ritual. If they were going to do it, I wanted to them to look me in the eye, which they didn't. But I wanted them to look me in the eye and I wanted to go through it. I wanted to have closure for myself. And honestly, I'm so glad I attended my excommunication because it was completely validating. If they had treated me with genuine, sincere love, if they had felt, if they had really listened, if they had. And they're good men. I'm not, I'm not. I'm not trashing them as bad men, but if they had shown Christlike love and empathy and listened, then I would have, like, really been shaken by that and had pause of like, let's try and make this work. But the degree, just the procedure, just the shaming, public shaming, the deceptions of how they. It was a completely deceptive process with the church PR and the apologists and even the stake president trying to say it was about these things in public. When he and I, you know, I have the recordings, I can share them at some point. It's very. I've shared some of them. Like, it's very clear why they were doing it and they weren't honest about it. And what I'm saying is that whole process was very much cathartic for me because it validated my decision. And I knew that this was not. This was not of God, this was not of God. This is not something Christ would approve of. And that made me feel better about it honestly in the end, and the only other thing I'll say is that I was carrying incredible cognitive dissonance for 10 years trying to bridge that gap between belief and non belief and it was very cathartic for me. I would not have let the church go. I love it too much. But they almost did me a favor because they had set me free. And I am no longer burdened by the cognitive dissonance and the pain and the suffering and the confusion. And it's life after has been awesome.

Reflections on Ten Years of Mormon Stories

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:41:10] Well, I going to ask one more question and then I'll let you take over because this is Mormon Stories. We're going to go three more hours.

Guest [00:41:17] Kidding.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:41:19] Actually it's really difficult to only ask one more question. So we're skipping over a lot of stuff I'm sure people want to know about. But John, is there anything that you want to tell your listeners after 10 years?

John Dehlin [00:41:31] Oh, wow. Yeah. Other than. Other than the private and the personal things that I share with my family, being able to create this podcast with you has been the most meaningful and uplifting and important and powerful part of my life. This has been a community effort. I couldn't have done it without the guests who came on Mormon Stories. I couldn't have done it without the people who send me emails to share their feedback and their thanks and appreciation. I couldn't have done it without the people who served on my board and the volunteers who helped make it happen happen. And I couldn't have done it without the financial support and encouragement. And I think we did something important over the past 10 years. I think we did help influence

Guest [00:42:49] the

John Dehlin [00:42:50] direction of the church modestly, but more importantly, I think we alleviated the pain and suffering of a lot of people. And I think the piece of feedback that I get most from people, they never use these words, but it's how I interpret it. They say thank you for giving me my life back. I was just locked in and I wasn't aware. And now whether they stay in the church or leave, they say now I have the freedom to think for myself. I've got all the information. I have a community that can support me. I have lots of validation. And now I can live whatever life I really want to live with, however many years I have left. Some people only have 20 or 30. Some people have 50, 60, 80 years left of their lives. And that's been an incredible gift to work with all of you to give that gift to others. So thank you.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:43:57] Everybody. John de Lynn.

Guest [00:44:08] All right, thank you, Lindsey and John. All right, let the line form. We've got about 10, 15 minutes. John, was that not working? It's the one mic I didn't check here.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] John, is there a God? Is there a God? Honestly,

Guest [00:44:37] I.

John Dehlin [00:44:38] Nothing would. I mean, honestly, I love life, and so I want to continue existing. Who doesn't, right? I mean, maybe some people don't, but I do. I love life. So, you know, the thought of everything ending when I die, there are parts of me, you know, that would be super sad about that. But two things, a couple things, I don't think anybody really knows. Honestly. I think we all hope. Some of us hope, some of us don't. So I hope things continue. I hope we all continue. I hope that we're all partying after this whole existence is through in the afterlife. I really do. But if this is all we have, and it's very possible to me that this is all we have, then how grateful I am that now, every minute that I have, I can enjoy in the present moment and that I can direct it and enjoy it as it is. And even if this is the only life we get, I still think it's a beautiful and a miraculous and a wonderful life. And so all I have to do is just sort of say, I don't know about an afterlife or a God. I hope there's something. Maybe I even have a little bit of faith that there's something. But I'm more and more at peace with this being good enough, at least for now.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:46:13] The apologists are going to cite that, and you're going to see Eat, Drink and be Merry. John Dehlin Sunstone interview 2015. You're welcome.

John Dehlin [00:46:25] Thank you, Joan.

Speaker G [00:46:26] I. I am very appreciative of the help that you have given people who have struggled in Mormonism. For me, I had what alcohol counselors call a high bottom. I got out of my Mormonism without a whole lot of the baggage that a lot of other people have. But I want to thank you for an aspect of what you have done that may not be apparent to most of the people here today. As a historian, I appreciate what you have done in about 600 podcasts to create primary sources that we historians can use in the future when we're investigating various aspects of Mormonism. You interviewed people on the left, the center, and the right of Mormonism. You interviewed Sandra Tanner and Mike Cornell. Quinn in the middle, you've interviewed Richard Bushman and Terrell Givens. On the right, you've interviewed Dan Peterson. And there's this whole trove of sources that we can Go back to if we have a computer and generate quotes and sources and things like that. So you're a psychologist, I'm a historian. You have helped my profession. Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [00:47:42] Thank you, David. I'll just note that John Larsen's in the back, and I think he deserves our thanks as well, As does one female badass podcaster right here.

Guest [00:48:11] My wife and I recently left the church and to great personal benefit. And the one issue that kind of disturbed us was we had some really good personal friends, neighbors, and we'd gone through some, you know, pretty serious medical issues that were there. Comfort to us. We left the church.

John Dehlin [00:48:36] Talk into the mic.

Guest [00:48:37] Is that better?

John Dehlin [00:48:38] All the way up close.

Guest [00:48:39] Okay. Should I start over again? Okay, sorry. We recently left the church, and you're very helpful in helping us, you know, get our heads out of the sand. So thank you very much. Our question is. Or my question is we. The one thing that we were kind of affected by a little bit is we had really close friends and neighbors, and they acted like we just were dead, like they had no interaction with us whatsoever. So my question is, how has your journey affected you and with your relationships with your friends and neighbors?

John Dehlin [00:49:20] Yeah, it's really. It's really creepy to be excommunicated in a Utah neighborhood. At least it was for me, because these people we've lived with for 11 years, we are. They were there for difficult times. Our kids babysat their kids. We shared a lot of tender moments. And as soon as you get excommunicated, I think I understand what happens to them. Whether it's Scientology or Jehovah's Witness or the military, the most dangerous people are the ones who defect because they cause the people remaining to question whether they should remain. So what they do psychologically is they erect walls.

Guest [00:49:58] They.

John Dehlin [00:49:58] That's what they have to do. And I don't think they're monsters. I don't think they're mean. But just the chill and the silence and the distance is really disturbing. I think biologically, we're wired to feel really troubled by that because, you know, a thousand, maybe even a couple hundred years ago, let alone thousands of years ago, that probably meant they killed you. You know what I mean? If the community felt that way about you. Right. And so it's really, you know, lot just creepy in our ward and in our community. My family's been. All my family are. My immediate. My parents and my siblings all remain active in the church. It's kind of crazy, but they've been very delightful. I have privilege that Way many people aren't able to do what we've done because they don't have the parents and the siblings that I had. But my family relationships are great and I have many, many, so many thousands of beautiful friends that, that offsets the disadvantages by a large amount. Thank you.

Speaker H [00:51:03] Thank you, John. My question is about, I'm trying to talk into the mic. My question is about the correlation between you having what appeared to seem a pretty great job at Microsoft and from a third party perspective, having less income directly correlated with your faith crisis. I know many of us don't have like this glee when we have a faith crisis. What we have is more hard times. What advice would you give to people who have maybe career setbacks or other social setbacks in the face of criticism from faithful members saying, well, it's because you're going through a few faith crisis that these, these problems exist.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] In my case, my faith crisis happened when I was making a lot of really good money. So for me, that wasn't, that wasn't a correlation. But I, but I, it's, it's one of the most awful things when people are blamed, you know, a death in the family or a sick child or bad financial situations and then the believing members sort of put that on you. I don't know. There's so much I could say, you know, you know, to some extent, follow your heart. That's important. You're being courageous. Try and understand that from their point of view, they're not really meaning the words they say. Anytime you hear those words come out of their mouth, what they're really saying is, I'm scared. I'm just really scared for myself. And they're not even as scared for you as they are for themselves. So try not to take that personally. It really isn't, it's not about you at all when they say those things to you. It's not about you. I know it's hard to muster that fortitude, but the other thing I'd have to say is try and look at this as a birth of freedom. If you don't believe that the church is what it claims to be, even if you're struggling financially, what I hope you'll realize is, is the gift you now have of the rest of your life. And it may be difficult, it may be challenging to create and forge that new path as a new pioneer, but it's a huge gift. You're alive, you're conscious, you have free will. And find what you. I'll be talking about this this afternoon. Find Your passion, something that you love and believe in and would do even if you didn't get paid for it. And then do that and you will find your way, you know, and you will have more joy than you ever would have had if you hadn't have left. That's my quick feedback.

Audience Questions and Closing Thoughts

Guest [00:53:41] Okay, so the four of you that are waiting to give questions, those will be our last four questions and then we'll wrap up after that. This. We got a lot of people in here. And the next session starts at 10:15, so please exit the room quickly so. So we can all make it to the next session. And so the next session here can get set up. Go ahead, Russ.

Guest [00:54:04] It's nice to finally meet you.

John Dehlin [00:54:06] Thank you, Russ.

Guest [00:54:07] We tried to meet. Didn't work. I really like you. I particularly like that your computer has the symbol of the biggest sin in monotheism to right under the apple. I love sunstone. I love sunstone. I come because of everybody here. And so my question is, I'm a retired chaplain. I wore a cross on my shirt for 23 years. I did what you do. People walking up to me in airports and I'm a part. I get that. I'm also a scholar of terrorism and why people become terrorists. My question is this. From what I've seen and experienced today, you have a huge amount in common with Douglas MacArthur, Elmer Gantry, Jim and Tammy all over north. I can keep going. So what are you doing?

John Dehlin [00:55:21] Elmer Gantry?

Guest [00:55:23] Yes.

Guest [00:55:24] Wow.

Guest [00:55:24] Elmer Gantry. So what are you doing to prevent yourself from becoming one of those? Because I like you and I like that you are here. But where I went to my undergraduate training, we were steeped in never becoming a nation of sheep. Don't create a flaw. Or is that your intent?

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:55:53] I feel like you have way better hair than those people.

John Dehlin [00:55:56] Better hair.

Guest [00:55:58] Not me.

John Dehlin [00:56:02] Thank you. Thank you, Russ. Well, I tried to address that in my comments about how I stop the conferences and the communities. I'll just tell you this, Russ, and anyone else concerned. It's amazing that I have six years of formal training as a clinical and counseling psychologist, and I'm not leaving the profession triumphantly that I'm going to be saving all these souls. It's humbling to sit in that chair and to stare someone in the eye to have them say, fix me because you really want to. But you know, they're either going to get better or not, you know, and they don't always get better. Even the best of therapists will tell you that. And really, really quick, you learn that your job isn't to heal anybody. Your job isn't. You can't save anybody. The best you can do is listen and validate. And occasionally you can give a tip or a suggestion or help them develop insight. Right. Occasionally there's a technique that may help a little bit, mindfulness or whatever, but the power of the individual is so limited, and the power of community is so great, you know? And so one of my favorite movies of all time is Kumare. Not because I cried during the movie, but because of the theme that the movie gives you, which is be your own guru. Right? And that's my message as a mental health professional. That's my message as a podcaster. We don't need more gurus. And. And so I will commit to you to do my best to not be that guy and to help all anyone who wants to develop their own wisdom and their own insight. And that's my commitment. And so that's. I'll tell you that. And if I. If I stray, I welcome your feedback. Russ, you can come to Cache Valley. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:58:12] Now a good time to talk about the compound that we're building.

John Dehlin [00:58:17] Yes. Is it Texas? Where's the company?

Lindsay Hansen Park [00:58:18] We have good news.

John Dehlin [00:58:19] Yes.

Speaker F [00:58:24] It seems that as you've discussed and throughout your journey, you've received a lot of criticism that you've been surprised by. It seems like you've been misunderstood, that people are telling a different story about you than the one that you tell about yourself. But depending on what sources people are read, that's the only side they're going to hear. They're not going to hear your side. So you've tried to create a lot of great things, and even at the best of intentions, they've been misinterpreted. They haven't done as well you've liked. Do you ever try to compare yourself to, for example, like church leaders or the early church, to see maybe they were trying with the best of intentions or maybe people are trying with the best of intentions now, things that are really hurtful now, even though it seems like it's very intentional that people are hurting and it's being purposeful, do you ever think that maybe that there's a different side and there's just a big miscommunication?

John Dehlin [00:59:17] I do. Thanks, George, and thanks for your blog posts. Over the years, you've been an important voice, an important influence. I hope that you've heard me say multiple times. I hope you've heard me express empathy for the brethren. I hope you've heard me say that they probably have one of the hardest jobs in the world. I hope you haven't heard me take too many unfair potshots at them because that has been my goal, to have empathy for them during this entire process. I absolutely, you know, I met with Elder Holland on two occasions. I met with Marlon Jensen for a one and a half hour, two hour lunch. Those men do believe what they're preaching and saying and I believe they have very difficult jobs. And I believe that they deserve respect and empathy. And so it's a great question, George. And I think we all deserve that, really. And so I take my lumps, they take their lumps. Hopefully we all get some praise and satisfaction along the way. And in the end, I just hope we all move forward towards a better understanding. And I think that's what it's about. And I think we are. I think the past 10 years have been healthy for Mormonism, for Mormons, for ex Mormons, for post Mormons. And so I appreciate that reminder and I share with you the importance of empathy for everybody. Will there be an episode 500 episode 500. I want that to be like, you know, how like, you know, like when Paul was dead and the Beatles, you know, like I want that to be like some secret, you know, nugget that people always ask about. No. My intention was to release the Tom Phillips episode as 500, but it was five parts and I didn't want it to be 500 A, B, C and D. My also intent was to create this sort of new vision for the next 500 episodes. But I got so overwhelmed by trying to make it meaningful that I just, I just, I gave up. So that's just going to be one of those rare oddities that people ask about. Kind of like a bootleg album or something in a, in a rock band. Thank you for asking. I was wondering how the process of

Guest [01:01:42] making Mormon stories has changed since your execution.

Speaker F [01:01:45] Communication,

John Dehlin [01:01:50] You know, technically it's been the same, like in terms of the technology that we use. It's hard for me. Well, you know, Terrell Givens won't come on Mormon Stories anymore. Fiona Givens won't come on Mormon Stories anymore, as far as I know. You know, if I'm wrong, I'll be delighted. Right. Many apologists won't come on Mormon stories anymore. And that's kind of what they did to Sunstone when Sunstone started getting too much attention, too successful. The comments against Symposia, the comments warning people. The 9-6-ex communications. The most significant thing that that did is it made all the faithful people scared to attend, all the BYU and CES employees unable to attend. And it becomes this self fulfilling prophecy where you appear to become more imbalanced and more strident and more angry, which partly is because of how they react to you, but it's partly because of what they do. And so it's really sad for me that Richard or Terrell won't come back on. I hope I'm wrong. I hope they will. I don't know. I don't know if I'm going to be able to keep the balance that I kept before. I'd like to, but part of me is just really tired of asking someone about the truth claims and how they believe. I'm kind of just really tired of that now. And Mormon stories has always been what interested me. And I hope that if it interested me, it would interest you. And so I have to figure out. It's very difficult. I'd love your feedback. I have to figure out how to keep it interesting now that we've done 550 whatever episodes of things that you're all very familiar with. So if you have feedback for how I can keep it balanced and interesting, please flood my inbox. I'm done with my PhD now. I'll be able to answer your emails better and I would welcome another 500 episodes if together we can do something really constructive and meaningful. But I'm not interested in becoming one sided, angry, negative, an ex Mormon podcast that just holds no interest for me. And so I would look to you as the community to say if we want there to be 500 more, let's do it. Help me figure out how to do that. And if it's time to kind of ramp it down, it will have been a wonderful, beautiful ride. And so thank you Lindsay for this interview. Thanks Micah, for moderating. Thanks to all of you here today and thanks to all those listening and viewing for supporting Mormon stories. It's been the most beautiful gift of my life and I'm honored to have walked this path with you all. Thank you.

Lindsay Hansen Park [01:04:54] And everybody stay for the next session. It's going to be awesome.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.