Introduction and Episode Overview

Shawn Delyn [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Shawn Dehlin. It's February 25, 2025, and today we are going to be talking about, well, we're going to be interviewing Michelle Stone. And Michelle Stone has gained quite a bit of notoriety and attention and interest and fandom because she has a YouTube channel called 132Problems where she is exploring whether or not Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. And so she takes deep, deep, deep, deep dives into all the different evidences and claims made about whether or not Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. And I think it's fair to say that as of now, as of your review of the evidence today, you lean towards the camp that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy. Is that true?

Michelle Stone [00:01:00] Yes.

Michelle Stone [00:01:00] Yes, that is fair to say.

Shawn Delyn [00:01:01] Okay. And it's not just her. This is a strain of thought or perspective that has its origins at the very beginning of Mormonism, including during the time Joseph Smith was alive. There were questions about whether or not he was practicing polygamy as early as, I don't know, the 1830s. 1830. Yeah, yeah, mid-1830s. But then, of course, after he died, the reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for, I don't know, a century and a half, which was at some point led by Joseph Smith iii, Joseph Smith's son, and Emma Smith, Joseph's wife. They maintained for 150 years that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy until they sort of turned into and changed their view on that. I don't know if it was in the 1960s or 1970s, but there's a long tradition of people holding this position that Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy long before Michelle Stone or 132Problems YouTube channel. But I would say that this perspective has gained quite a lot of momentum over the past several years, in no small part to Michelle Stone. Your Work, Michelle's YouTube channel. Many of her videos get 50,000, 60,000 views. It says it's got over 100,000 subscribers. Some people are curious about that number. But regardless, it's a significant enough movement that I'm thinking about it that I'm paying attention to it and that we're covering animal stories. And I tend to only want to do things that are socially relevant, and I think it's important. I'll give one other piece of context, just as background. So a week or two ago, I forget exactly when we did an LDS discussions episode, me and Julia and Nemo, answering the question to our best attempt of whether or not Joseph Smith had sex with his plural wives. And because I have kind of this long standing bias against things that I fear qualify as conspiracy theories. So whether that's, you know, people didn't land on the moon or the earth is flat, or, you know, the 911 didn't happen, or the Holocaust didn't happen, or, you know, because I feel like. Or antiviral, you know, generally speaking, because I have. Because I believe that conspiracy theories can be harmful. I have this fear of never wanting to advance things that I am concerned might be conspiracy theories on Mormon stories. So when we did that LDS discussions episode, and in previous episodes, I kind of referenced Michelle Stone and her work without always naming her name and almost explicitly just saying, I'm not gonna mention her name because I don't wanna advance conspiracy theories. And later, just a few days ago, really, we had this lovely two hour conversation where she just said, I would love it if people would talk to me, not about me. And that was a very gracious, direct and thoughtful way to sort of call me out on, you know, what probably felt quite disrespectful or at least devaluing or diminishing. I don't know, you can speak for yourself there, but you know, that's. It was at that point. And also Michelle and Cheryl Bruno on 132Problems Channel did a response, part one of a response to this LDS discussions episode where they called me out on historical errors that I made, which I was quite embarrassed about. So embarrassed that I took the whole episode down for at least one full day. And I can explain why I put that back up. But anyway, that's all to say that there was enough there that I just realized it's really time just to bring Michelle on, to stop trying to ignore her, to talk to her, to show her dignity and respect and to let her tell her story and then to talk about these issues. And I know this is a bit of a lengthy intro. I'll just end by saying this. As I started to prepare for this episode, I'm like, what's your position on the Navajo Expositor? And she's like, why don't you go watch the three or four or five videos that I've made on it? And for every issue that I came upon, like, oh, what about William Clayton's journal? There's an episode on that. And I'm like, oh, what about, you know, anyway, pretty much every issue that you could want to know about. She's done an episode on how many episodes at this point?

Michelle Stone [00:06:11] Oh, I want to say 158 right now.

Shawn Delyn [00:06:14] So more than 132.

Michelle Stone [00:06:16] Yes, yes. We've surpassed it.

Shawn Delyn [00:06:18] Yeah. So anyway, we're going to. We agreed ahead of time that there'd kind of be three parts to this interview. The first part is going to be her story, her Mormon story. So we're gonna do a good hour or two on that at least. And then the second part we're gonna like we do with Patrick Mason and Jim Bennett and other faithful Mormons. I'm gonna cover just the high level critiques of Mormon Church truth claims. It may only be 15 minutes, I don't know. But the reason I'm gonna do that is because I think there's a context around Joseph Smith's credibility that is much bigger than just polygamy that I want to just get a sense for how much she knows about and where she stands on them. We're not going to dig into them. I just want to kind of know where she stands on some of the broader controversies around Joseph Smith to then provide context for part three, which is where we're going to try to understand, number one, her positions around Joseph Smith's polygamy, or lack thereof, practicing it and how she responds to what many feel is overwhelming evidence that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy. And that's going to be a substantive part of this conversation. We agreed that there will be a part two, potentially where we potentially dig into the sources more extensively. I don't expect today to be like I pull up a source and she pulls up a source and we argue about the sources. Today is about getting a lay of the land for her positions. We'll have a follow up maybe where we talk about things more in depth. So that's what we're in store for probably a five hour episode. So strap in. We welcome your live stream. We we really appreciate any comments. Please subscribe to this channel. Also, if you want to learn more about Michelle and what she talks about, go subscribe to her channel as well. Please like this episode and if you really want us to see your comments or questions and to potentially read them on the air, the best way to do that is through the super chat function of YouTube. But also, we just want to always thank our donors for making all this possible. We couldn't do this without you, so thank you. Open Stories Foundation Mormon Stories donors. We've got Julia and Maven moderating comments and doing time codes and show notes. So throw us your questions and comments. And without any further ado, Michelle. First of all, Anything you want to correct or add to what I said in the intro?

Michelle Stone [00:08:48] Well, I have to apologize. I started getting sick last night because, of course, when you're coming on Mormon stories. So I have to apologize for my voice. But the only thing I wanted to correct is that actually Emma Smith never was in charge of the RLDS Church in any way. That was just one little, very ticky tack thing. But no, she wasn't. She didn't lead the RLDS Church. Only Joseph Smith III did.

Shawn Delyn [00:09:10] Okay. Yeah. And I'll get a million things wrong, so I'll appreciate that. Yeah. I don't know why I associate her with being kind of a leader. I don't mean like a hard leader, like a prophet or anything, but sort of as a figurehead, I don't know. Is that fair to say?

Michelle Stone [00:09:25] I think that's how, you know, I think that it is a really common idea that Emma that, like, this Emma's church, that Emma started this church that she was mad at Breaking Machine. You know, it just. I think it's, you know, it doesn't seem very accurate to me, so.

Shawn Delyn [00:09:39] Okay. Anything else about how today's gonna go? I tried to provide you with all the questions that I could beforehand. I'm not interested in gotchas. I'm not even interested in trying to pin you down or I just, you know. But I hope you feel respected in this process. I always want people to leave these interviews feeling respected, so I hope we can do that.

Michelle Stone [00:10:02] Thanks. I appreciate that. And I appreciate you having me on. I know that this is a challenging. I don't know, but this creates complications for people. I know that this is a very divisive topic that people have really strong feelings about, so I appreciate you being willing to step into it.

Shawn Delyn [00:10:18] Yeah. Thanks for coming.

Michelle Stone [00:10:19] That's really great.

Shawn Delyn [00:10:22] I think we'll get to this. But, like, people are being excommunicated for taking the position that you hold. And so for me, it's no small act that you're willing to come on Mormon stories knowing that you value your membership, I think, and love the gospel as much as anyone. And that your work is probably a reflection of your love for the gospel. It's no small thing that you're willing to come on Mormon stories knowing that there could be risks, so.

Michelle Stone [00:10:51] Well, thank you. Thanks. I'm a glutton for punishment. What can I say? Oh, there was one other thing. Well, and maybe we'll get to this, so maybe I could wait. But I did want to also clarify one other thing that Actually, we have a lot of agreement, because when I started my channel, I actually didn't want at all to get into Joseph Smith's polygamy. That was not my interest or my topic. I wanted to share with the people in the church, my people, that polygamy was never of God. So my entire first year is actually scriptures and theology sharing how polygamy was never of God. And also I get into a lot of other things. Psychology, sociology, biology, a lot of other things to show the impact of polygamy and to show that it always has bad fruits and that it's never of God. It wasn't until I was into my podcast for quite a while that I started diving into Joseph Smith, because obviously the documentation seemed completely overwhelming. And I just thought that Joseph Smith originated polygamy just like everybody else, that people really pushed back on me. So I just wanted to clarify that. That, actually, the core issue to me that I feel is by far the most important is that people understand that polygamy is not of God. And I know for much of your audience, it's like, duh. But it's actually painful and sad how many people in our church don't understand that. Really, really kind of drag this along with us.

Shawn Delyn [00:12:11] Yeah. And so in some way, we're kind of allies because we both think polygamy is horrible.

Michelle Stone [00:12:20] Yeah, well, it was. So did you have any more questions? Cause I can div. And kind of start talking about it.

Michelle's Motivation for Coming on the Show

Shawn Delyn [00:12:25] Let's do your intention really quick. So tell us really quickly. We do this with everyone. Why did you want to come on Mormon Stories? And you've got a journal and a conference coming up, and I want to give you a chance to talk about that as well. So first, why did you want to come on Mormon Stories real quick?

Michelle Stone [00:12:40] So, yes, I did. I wanted to come on Mormon Stories for the first thing, to talk about this journal and this conference that we're really excited about. And do you want to go there first and then I can talk? So this is the Journal of Mormon Polygamy that is being started. The first articles should be coming out early in March, and our conference is coming up March 21st and 22nd. And what we are doing with the journal is trying to create engagement, trying to start people engaging together so everybody can understand the research that is being done on this topic to try to bridge the divides. Because when we all. When we bring different perspectives together, I feel like it just accelerates what everybody can learn. So we're really excited about that at the conference. Some of the People we have speaking that some of your audience members might know the names. Todd Compton will be. And Dawn Bradley. Claire Barris. Barbara Jones Brown is our keynote speaker, along with Taylor Petrie as our other keynote speaker. I'm gonna leave people out, but. And then we have people that are from different perspectives. We have people joining us from fundamentalist communities who are current fundamentalists. And then we also have people from the community I represent that will be presenting several names. Peter Brown, Jeremy Hoop, Gwendolyn Wine, Whitney Horning, and several others. So we actually think it will be a fantastic experience. So I wanted to let people know about that.

Shawn Delyn [00:13:58] It's quite a line.

Michelle Stone [00:14:00] Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [00:14:00] That's part of the lineup. That's exciting. It's at the U, right? University of New York.

Michelle Stone [00:14:04] It is. It's at the u. Yep. The 21st and 22nd. Oh, and then I should. I guess I should share the intention. I guess I left that out.

Shawn Delyn [00:14:11] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [00:14:11] Yeah. So I wanted to let people know about this journal and conference because we are putting so much work into it, and we're really, really optimistic and excited about it. And also, I just have. I want to share my perspective with your audience. I think there are a lot of people who haven't, who, you know, obviously would be like, why in the world would somebody think that? And I understand. I fully understand sort of the hostility and the dismissiveness, because I am saying something very different. But my hope is that in just talking about it and letting people understand my journey and then also answering some of the questions, we can just kind of break down some of those barriers a little bit where we can start having conversations so we can all have better scholarship. That's what I'm hoping for.

Shawn Delyn [00:15:00] Love it. Okay. And normally when I start the story portion, I start by saying, where does your Mormon story begin? I'm dying to know how far back and if polygamy is a part of your Mormon ancestry, But where does your Mormon story begin?

Family Background and Polygamy Ancestry

Michelle Stone [00:15:21] So I'll begin back there. So in. Okay. So for people who understand, in 1904, the second manifesto was issued, which was like, for real, we are not doing this. Totally done.

Shawn Delyn [00:15:32] When the Mormon Church said, no more polygamy for real, this time they did

Michelle Stone [00:15:36] in 1890, but they had to again in 1904 because of the Reed Smoot hearings and things that were happening. So, yes, they reissued and they were like, we mean it. In 1906, my great grandfather was called. So our family history, you know, our family lore, I guess I could say, is that my great grandfather met with the president of the church and was told he could go to Mexico and take a second wife. He and his first wife were unable to have children. And so. And he's. And what our story is is that he said, president, I thought we weren't doing that anymore. And Joseph F. Smith said, I'm not calling you as the president of the church. I'm calling you as the president of the priesthood. And that's how he differentiated it. And so my grandfather did go down to Mexico and court the bishop's daughter, waited till she turned 16, and they got married. And for the rest of his life, he was very protected by the church leaders. He served in high callings. He worked in the church office building. So this is all very verifiable. So this is my ancestor. And interestingly, I'll go on a little sidetrack. I have the same. My great grandfather happens to be Mark Hoffman's grandfather.

Michelle Stone [00:16:44] So if people know who Mark Hoffman is.

Michelle Stone [00:16:47] Mark Hoffman is my cousin once removed.

Shawn Delyn [00:16:50] And he's. For those who don't know, he's the bomber forger that we've covered in previous episodes.

Michelle Stone [00:16:54] Yeah, I know it's maybe weird to be associated with him, so I don't need to bring him. But it's just an interesting part of my growing up and part of our story that I know my Aunt Lou, my older siblings, grew up with Mark, knew him to some extent, have a lot of stories to tell about him growing up. And I was far too young to know him, but I know that my sister Janae, that is, she just passed away, but she had cerebral palsy. She's a lot older than I am. And every time they would drive around the point of the mountain, she would just say, hi, Mark.

Michelle Stone [00:17:27] You know, like, we have funny family

Michelle Stone [00:17:29] stories about Mark Hoffman. Okay. That they all knew. You know, he's our cousin. Isn't that interesting? My mother is the oldest granddaughter and then of the polygamist, and then Mark Hoffman was the son of the youngest sister. So he was the same age as my kids, as my mom's kids, as my older siblings.

Shawn Delyn [00:17:49] So your mom is the granddaughter of polygamous family.

Michelle Stone [00:17:52] Mm, my mom's oldest, yeah. So I'll tell you an interesting story. So the first wife's name was Agnes McMurran, and William Gayly Sears was her husband. The two of them went to Mexico, and they married. Oh, Athelia Vallocal. If I get any of the names wrong, I'll be embarrassed by. But her first baby was named Agnes after the first wife. And that's my grandmother. So I have polygamy pretty close.

Shawn Delyn [00:18:17] Yeah. Would you believe my grandmother was the daughter of a third wife?

Michelle Stone [00:18:21] Oh, really?

Michelle Stone [00:18:22] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [00:18:23] It's not even a great grandma for me.

Michelle Stone [00:18:25] Yeah, this is my grandmother. My grandmother was the daughter. Okay.

Shawn Delyn [00:18:27] Okay.

Michelle Stone [00:18:27] So we both have second wife.

Shawn Delyn [00:18:28] Okay, so we both have grandparents.

Michelle Stone [00:18:30] Yes.

Shawn Delyn [00:18:31] That were children of polygamous church.

Michelle Stone [00:18:33] Polygamy in the LDS Church. Not fundamentalist.

Shawn Delyn [00:18:35] Yeah, me too.

Michelle Stone [00:18:37] And so I was raised. I don't think it was talked about a lot, but I was just raised believing that polygamy was the higher law, that it was the law of Zion and the celestial kingdom and that, you know, as soon as we were righteous enough to live polygamy and the law of consecration, Jesus could come. And, you know, that was really my perspective for quite a while. In fact, as a young mom, I sold my mom's music. So my mom is Jeanine Brady. If anyone knows I'm a Mormon.

Shawn Delyn [00:19:05] Tell us about her.

Michelle Stone [00:19:07] Yeah, my mom is awesome. She just turned 90 in November.

Shawn Delyn [00:19:11] She's still alive.

Michelle Stone [00:19:12] She is alive. She's still kicking, and she's great. And she wrote oh, go ahead. So people will recognize. When I grow up, I want to be a mother. I was raised. So my bedroom growing up was below my mom's bedroom. So I in the mornings would hear her composing on her piano that was right above my bed. So I got to hear those songs early on. And yeah, I guess. I guess we can't sing I'm a Mormon anymore. We had to change it to I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Michelle Stone [00:19:39] Right.

Michelle Stone [00:19:40] And then she also has some songs in the primary song book. And which ones she wrote I Lived in Heaven.

Shawn Delyn [00:19:46] I lived in heaven a long time ago.

Michelle Stone [00:19:49] It is true. Yep, she wrote that one.

Shawn Delyn [00:19:51] That's a good one.

Michelle Stone [00:19:52] It is a good one.

Shawn Delyn [00:19:53] Okay. What else?

Michelle Stone [00:19:53] What else is she actually? I don't know that she submitted many to the primary song, but because she didn't like that, other people would edit it without her. You know, she's kind of like, I wrote a song, don't change my song. It was her feeling, you know, so she just. Most of her songs she did on her own. Where's some others that people would know? She has so many.

Shawn Delyn [00:20:13] I'm pretty sure Margi grew up listening to these songs. Did your mom write Telling the Truth Isn't going to be.

Michelle Stone [00:20:22] My teacher told me Broke My Window. And the LDS Church made videos using. Using several of her songs. Yeah. So the Stand and Tall series and the Safety Kids and.

Michelle Stone [00:20:32] Yeah, like.

Michelle Stone [00:20:33] Like, she really has an amazing legacy. And, you know, she's always been such a model to me. She raised nine children and then went on to. To. They sold, I think, in their heyday, over 15 million albums. Albums and cassettes. Not just digital down, you know, so. So it was actually quite a successful business that she. My mom did the music. My dad was also a musician, so he helped clean things up and he ran the business. And so my whole growing up, my dad was either at the office or at the church because he was also the bishop. My whole growing up.

Shawn Delyn [00:21:05] Okay, wait, so where did your parents meet?

Michelle Stone [00:21:08] They met at byu.

Shawn Delyn [00:21:09] Okay. BYU Provo. Okay. And they married around what year?

Michelle Stone [00:21:15] Oh, I'm so embarrassed.

Michelle Stone [00:21:16] My mom was born in 34. My oldest sister's 20 years older than

Shawn Delyn [00:21:20] I am, so probably in the mid-50s.

Michelle Stone [00:21:21] Yeah. Married in the 50s.

Shawn Delyn [00:21:22] Okay. And then they had how many kids?

Michelle Stone [00:21:25] Nine.

Shawn Delyn [00:21:25] Nine kids. And you were wearing the birth.

Michelle Stone [00:21:28] Nine.

Shawn Delyn [00:21:28] You were. You're the youngest.

Michelle Stone [00:21:29] I'm the tail end. Yep.

Shawn Delyn [00:21:30] Okay. So what was your dad's profession?

Michelle Stone [00:21:33] He.

Michelle Stone [00:21:33] So he ran Bright Music.

Shawn Delyn [00:21:34] Okay.

Michelle Stone [00:21:35] He ran the.

Shawn Delyn [00:21:35] So they started that company together.

Michelle Stone [00:21:37] Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [00:21:37] After they got married. Okay.

Michelle Stone [00:21:39] Yeah, they actually started it. I want to say they started making that. They had to their first books because it started with. With manuscript books of their lds songs for children. And my mom was always frustrated because there were Sesame street songs and then reverent primary songs. So she one time heard her children outside singing I love Trash from Sesame Street.

Shawn Delyn [00:22:00] Oh, I love Trash.

Michelle Stone [00:22:02] I don't know it.

Shawn Delyn [00:22:03] Anything dirty or dingy or dusty.

Michelle Stone [00:22:05] Yes. And my mom was like, we can

Michelle Stone [00:22:08] do better for our children. So her initial song, she didn't love it, I guess, but her initial idea was I want my children to have the fun. Fun of weekday songs, but teaching messages. So that was her initial idea, but then it expounded very much from there. So I think she started it when she was pregnant with me, actually, and

Shawn Delyn [00:22:27] then started Bright Music. Oh. After she had. Had seven kids.

Michelle Stone [00:22:30] Nine. Eight.

Shawn Delyn [00:22:31] Nine. Sorry. Yep. Yeah. Okay. Eight. Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So what was your dad doing before Bright Music got started?

Michelle Stone [00:22:39] He always was an entrepreneur and he struggled. They struggled financially for a long time. Very, very long time with him trying to start different businesses and trying to provide. He got a master's in music composition, and so he was always very careful with us to say, what are you going to do with that degree? Because nobody had asked him that question. But it served him really well because he was such a hard worker and he Just made this business. It's hard to make a business go. And that was my dad that did that.

Shawn Delyn [00:23:06] So what cities were you all raised in?

Michelle Stone [00:23:09] So just a little bit north of here, I was raised in East Mill Creek, went to Olympus High, so I'm kind of in my own stomping ground.

Shawn Delyn [00:23:15] Oh, okay. Wow. So this is kind of your area. All right. Okay. So after giving birth to you, your mom started Bright music. Bright, Is that what. And then she and your dad built that business up while you were growing up. Okay. So that's kind of a non traditional Mormon woman set of activities because it's perceived that the woman's place is in the home and that she shouldn't be working outside the home. So that feels a little bit non traditional. That's just what some people think. What do you think about that? Having a working professional mom growing up?

Michelle Stone [00:23:58] Yeah, that's an interesting question because I didn't. She wrote her music at home and then she would be in the recording studios. And so I remember, you know, like she'd get us little latch hook quilts and we'd go sit at the recording studio for hours at a time while the more talented children would record while we'd sit there watching them. And then I do remember being locked out of the house a lot coming home from school and she wasn't home yet, so we'd have to figure out a way to break in the house or go somewhere else.

Shawn Delyn [00:24:26] So you were a latchkey kid basically.

Michelle Stone [00:24:27] Well, except that my mom wouldn't let me have a key, so that was funny. It would have been better if I'd been latched.

Shawn Delyn [00:24:31] You were a latchkey kid without a key?

Michelle Stone [00:24:33] Yeah, I was a locked out kid, but it was only, it was only periodic, it was only when she was in the studio. So actually. Cause she really. My mom just was born with this amazing talent. When she was six years old, she became the accompanist for the school, you know, the pianist for the school. She just was really, really talented from an early age and wrote music her whole way through, you know, until she started write music. I mean, she'd always been writing the road shows and she wrote a lot of music. And so I actually really, I mean, for me I appreciate that and everybody has their own path. But my mom felt like dedicating her life to her motherhood for that many years. Really informed what she was able to do later. She felt like that was like she couldn't have done bright music like she did if she hadn't first raised her Family. And for me, it's been really motivational and inspirational because I also have loved raising my family. I have a lot of children. And I'm sorry. So thankful that I've gotten to put all of my time and talents into raising my family. And now that, you know, I don't have babies the same age, I'm putting. I'm doing full time work in a different direction. So for me, it's a really good model that my mom showed me.

Shawn Delyn [00:25:45] Yeah, so your mom kind of exemplified having the kids, being the mom, and then having this second act of a professional life after the kids are born and during and after raising them. That kind of primed you for the same sort of thing. And 132 problems right now is kind of your bright music.

Michelle Stone [00:26:04] Yes, yes, yes, it is.

Shawn Delyn [00:26:06] Is that accurate?

Michelle Stone [00:26:07] It is, it is. And I actually. I'm so thankful for my mom's example because for me, it's like, it's really hard to be having kids and working about daycare and babysitting and a career and, you know, trying to navigate all of that. At the same time, I think it's wonderful that people do it. For me, this has been a very graceful trajectory to go on. Like, I always want to encourage couples. Don't be afraid to have your family first and then build your career. So it's not a bad method for anyone that feels inspired to go that direction.

Shawn Delyn [00:26:34] Do you have a sense for whether you're like, I know that Pauli's Dunn, there was some jealousy about his popularity and that maybe some of the Brethren were uncomfortable with how popular he was getting. That's just an example of like, how commercialism with a religious bureaucracy can sometimes run afoul of each other. Do you have a sense for whether your mom was on the good side of the Brethren or of Salt Lake on the bad side, whether there was drama or conflicts between her business and the church?

Michelle Stone [00:27:03] Church leaders, yeah. So the church. One thing that's been good for me to learn is the church isn't a monolith. It's a bunch of individuals with different perspectives, you know, and so there were some challenging things that, you know, that I think just. I think you're right that just sometimes that happens. I know that my mom struggled at times with some things that happened and there was a. I can't remember. I don't know the details. I was young, but she always just kind of worked through it and, you know, but yes, that's a good question. I know there were some frustrations and Some conflict at times, but it didn't stop her.

Shawn Delyn [00:27:37] Did they become pretty financially decently well off by the time bright music hits its pinnacle?

Michelle Stone [00:27:43] Yeah, when I was growing up, so my siblings grew up quite poor, and then I grew up quite different. Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [00:27:51] So they did well, by the time it hit its apex.

Michelle Stone [00:27:53] Yeah. My dad wasn't fabulous with money, so he didn't invest well and he didn't, you know, like, he just ran his business and was a musician. So I don't know that they did, like, astoundingly well, but they did quite well. And, you know, my mom's still taken care of. She's not super rich, but she's taken care of at 90, and I'm thankful for that.

Shawn Delyn [00:28:13] Good. Okay, this is going back a tiny bit. Do you have. I would assume that if you had polygamous ancestry starting in 1906 or whatever, you might have polygamy and polygamous ancestry going all the way back potentially to Nauvoo or thereafter.

Michelle Stone [00:28:28] Yeah. Do you know what? I would need to. I have looked into that before. I know I have polygamy on both my mom's side and my dad's side. And you don't know how form. Not a little bit. But I would need to, like, I would need to refresh. I haven't looked into that, actually. I do have a grandmother who has. Who has been one of my inspirations and someone that I feel like is kind of one of my angels. Her name's Ann Mariah Bowen, and she has a story that is just tragic. And I didn't learn about this, but she. Until. Until I was, well, going in my podcast. But she. She was 15 when her dad died crossing the Mississippi, trying to get to an oxen team to leave and come west. And he ended up dying of pneumonia a day or two later. So she ended up. So she was an orphan and her mother was a widow. She drove her older sister's oxen team because her older sister, I think, was pregnant and had a baby. So at 15, having never driven a team before, she drove the oxen team clear across the country, including. We have a story where they got into a river and were starting to get turned over and go down, and she climbed out on the tongue and unhooked it and saved the whole deal. Like, she was really amazing. And then in. So. And I. This isn't the story. This is what happened, because the records are all there. So in the. Oh, gosh. I don't know if it was the tabernacle or some other Building. There was some conference and Brigham Young was speaking and he said, anson, call. Have you taken a. Have you gotten a plural wife? And he said, no, Brother Brigham. And he said, there's Ann Mariah Bowen. Take her. And so she was 17. Anson Colle, I want to say, was 40. And the next day she had to leave with him. And pretty, pretty awful. And she ended up being left in just the most godforsaken places trying to raise her children. There are amazing stories of what she did. She was left, oh, up north,

Michelle Stone [00:30:22] maybe

Michelle Stone [00:30:23] in Logan, I'm not sure, but she maybe somewhere else. The call compound was in Bountiful. And she ended up, she was up there with her little children and knew that they would not survive the winter. So she had to get down to the compound before winter. So she ended up bringing, I cannot remember how many head of cattle and her, I think, four little children by herself from wherever she was up north to the compound. And she, you know, she felt so proud of herself that she didn't lose a single one. Anyway, she ended up having six children. Two of her little girls passed away. And then Ann Sincall decided to divorce her. And the story is, so he helped with the rescue, the handcart rescue, and ended up getting two extra wives with that. And so we had two extra wives. And it sounds like the wives didn't really approve of her. Outdoorsy. She ran the post office, she ran a little restaurant, she worked out with the farmhands, and they didn't approve of that. And so they kind of conspired and got him to divorce her. And she got kicked out. And I'm sorry, I sometimes get a little teary at these stories, but she got kicked out, was only allowed to take her babe in arms, and had to make her way back to Spanish Fork to live with her mom, who had been given to some other polygamous man. And as soon as that little baby was a few years old, old enough to be taken away, they sent the oldest son to come and get her baby and take her away. So there are some really, really heart wrenching stories. And I've actually, like, I'm sure this will come up, but I am someone who feels like I have interaction with the divine, you know, And I feel like she is one who has called me to do this work. Like I've had experiences of being wakened up in the night and told to go find something, told to go see something.

Michelle Stone [00:32:12] And I've really dug out her story and feel a close, like she's somewhat excited.

Michelle Stone [00:32:17] I'M excited to give a hug too.

Shawn Delyn [00:32:20] Yeah, I'm very much emotionally connecting with this part of your story. It wasn't until a few years ago when I did an interview with Melissa. Growing up, growing up. Polygamy.

Michelle Stone [00:32:32] Yes.

Shawn Delyn [00:32:33] It's great.

Michelle Stone [00:32:34] I love them.

Shawn Delyn [00:32:35] Where I investigated my own polygamous ancestors. This grandma that I told you about. And I found out that, like, while, you know, while my, my first two great grandmothers, I guess, were struggling to just like survive with young children, my great grandfather was called on a mission, like to Europe. And so not only are these women in a polygamous marriage with young kids, but their husbands called to Europe, totally neglecting them. I think as a doctor, and I think one or two of his own children died while he was away, totally neglecting his first two wives. And then once he moved on to his third wife, the accounts are that he kind of just left the first two families to kind of fend for themselves. And then he gets a fourth wife who he ends up dumping and she gets addicted to opiates and she goes back to Oregon after he kind of threw her out and there were lawsuits. And just like I connect with how horrific the conditions of polygamy were for so many of the wives and children that were brought into it.

Michelle Stone [00:33:41] Absolutely. So many. Just tragic, tragic stories. More than people realize. You know, it's everywhere that this was practiced, I will say. So my great grandmother was the 16 year old. So Anne Mariah Bowen's little 3 year old boy when she got kicked out is my great, great grandfather. And his. He went down and was the bishop in Mexico. And his daughter is my great grandfather. And she. What was the story? I was just going to tell you something. I totally lost my train of thought.

Shawn Delyn [00:34:10] It was just about all the horrific things that happened.

Michelle Stone [00:34:12] Yeah. But she, I will say she, like everybody talks about what an incredibly wonderful, wonderful person she was. So I don't want to cast any aspersions at people that live these principles, but I do know that she was the only one with the children. Right. And she. When Agnes was born, my grandmother, named after the first wife, she was left in Mexico while the husband and the first wife took the baby to the grand tour on Salt Lake to kind of show off their baby. Right. Just unthinkable things. These are the things I didn't learn about until after because my mom really talks about how they were kind of raised to not talk about things in these polygamous situations. And so. And then, you know, so I'll tell you first. So I Was raised believing this. I didn't hear these stories when I was young. I heard this story. One of the stories is that at my grandfather's funeral. Oh, well, I'll first tell you this. So my grandfather was also. He was called to be the mission president in Tonga and told he could only take one wife. So he took his first wife, and the second wife, with all of the children, was left here. And one of the. My grandmother didn't marry until she was quite old for the day. She was, I believe, 27, which was quite old for that time period because she and her younger sister were working full time to try to provide for the family. And so, you know, there were some difficult situations. But, yeah, I was always told the story that when my grandfather died, an apostle spoke, the chapel was filled because he was a big, important church leader. And, you know. And then a little while later, the first wife, Agnes McMurran, died, and the chapel was empty, which is so sad. And the story is that my great grandmother sat on the bench and just said, where are they? Don't they know I loved her just as much as I loved him?

Michelle Stone [00:35:53] You know?

Michelle Stone [00:35:53] So I don't want to only, like. I know that people did their best, and some of them were amazing people. But I also know that there was, like, after. So I grew up thinking, oh, there are just things we don't understand, and it will be beautiful. It wasn't until I started looking at it through this new perspective that I started hearing other stories like that my grandmother. My great grandmother would say her children would hear her at night, rocking her baby, crying, saying, mine, mine. Because nothing was allowed to be hers. Do you know what I mean? Everything. I think that my great grandfather was very sympathetic to the first wife because her mother had been a plural wife and had really suffered. And so I appreciate that he was so sensitive to her. It's just there's not a good way to make it work. It causes pain. And there are so many stories of my wonderful great grandmother pain.

Shawn Delyn [00:36:48] And you look at kind of you as. I don't want to say hyperachiever, but I'm impressed with what you've accomplished and with all your children and then your mom. How could it not be that part of our inheritance of hyper achievement doesn't at least come in part from the massive unreasonable expectations that polygamy brought to our ancestors? And then that hyper achievement was kind of passed down. You know what I mean? Or endurance or perseverance or grit or determination. Right. Yeah.

Michelle Stone [00:37:22] I hadn't thought of it quite that way. But I am actually people that are. You know, there are different groups of people that don't appreciate the work I do. One of them is polygamists or very polygamy happy members of the church, you know, and they really accuse me of betraying my ancestors, you know, and I don't. I don't feel that way at all. I'm like, no, I'm trying to help be a voice to help right the wrongs that they suffered under. But I appreciate their goodness and their sincerity and their hard. Like, they endured amazingly well.

Shawn Delyn [00:37:54] Oh, yeah, it's inspiring. Okay, so how would you describe your Mormon upbringing? Just as a Mormon kid and as a Mormon teen?

Growing Up Mormon and Early Spiritual Life

Michelle Stone [00:38:03] Yeah, I guess. Just Mormon, right? Like, we were very active. My dad was, you know, and I did. I've always been someone that just has had spiritual experiences, so I, you know, have had a lot of connection to the Lord, and from how I interpret that, and. I don't know, when I went through my teen years, I guess I was a little bit more. Oh, I don't just want to be like everybody else, just one of the crowd, but in general, just busy with sports and school and music and. And went through. And, you know, I didn't go to young women very often, and that caused a little bit of conflict because I always had. Well, I had sports and I had other things. So it was kind of. My mom was. My mom's a little bit of a rebel, but my dad is definitely a rule follower. So it was always kind of a fun dynamic that, you know, between them, my mom would be like, don't worry about it. And my dad would be like, you need to.

Michelle Stone [00:38:54] You know.

Shawn Delyn [00:38:55] So you didn't attend young women?

Michelle Stone [00:38:57] Not very often, because I always had basketball practice or games or soccer or a musical I was in or, you know, I was very active in a lot of activities. I just wasn't able to attend.

Shawn Delyn [00:39:08] So. Basketball, soccer, musical theater.

Michelle Stone [00:39:12] Yeah, I was the athlete of the year every year throughout college. I mean, throughout high school, in junior high. Oh, really? At Olympus, but at Evergreen Junior High and then Olympus.

Shawn Delyn [00:39:20] Fun, I think, until my.

Michelle Stone [00:39:22] Yeah, yeah.

Shawn Delyn [00:39:22] That's like three minutes from my house. Yeah. Yeah. That's so fun.

Michelle Stone [00:39:26] Yeah, that's fun.

Michelle Stone [00:39:27] And then I. And then I also did ensemble and dance company, and so I was just always really, really busy.

Shawn Delyn [00:39:32] What about seminary?

Michelle Stone [00:39:33] I did seminary.

Shawn Delyn [00:39:35] And did y' all do family meeting, family prayer, scripture study?

Michelle Stone [00:39:38] Tried. Yeah, tried. You know, like. Like, they wanted to. It's hard when you have it, and I'm kind of at that stage now, I was at the tail end of the family, and I was so good at those things when I was a young mom. Really faithful. And now, you know.

Michelle Stone [00:39:52] You know, when.

Michelle Stone [00:39:53] When you raise a big family, your priorities kind of change, and the kids are kind of different, and it's just a different upbringing. Like, I'm a very different mom to my younger kids than I was to my older kids.

Shawn Delyn [00:40:04] Did you say your dad was a bishop?

Michelle Stone [00:40:06] Mm.

Shawn Delyn [00:40:07] Okay. So that's. I mean, how many kids? Nine kids and a bishop and running a business as an entrepreneur. That's a lot.

Michelle Stone [00:40:14] It was. It was a lot.

Shawn Delyn [00:40:16] What year did you graduate from high school?

Michelle Stone [00:40:17] 94.

Shawn Delyn [00:40:18] 94. Okay. I'm trying to get that in my timeline. Okay, 94. So how would you describe your testimony as you're graduating from high school?

Michelle Stone [00:40:30] Oh, that's a really good question. I think I was a strange dichotomy. I just always have wanted to learn. So I loved talking to people with different religious ideas or of different religions. I loved exploring, and I don't. And some things about Mormonism bothered me, you know, But I. So I don't know, but I would say I had. It's funny that I am having a hard time answering that. I think I had a testimony. I went to girls camp and bore my testimony, you know? But I think generally I've been more connected to God than necessarily the religion do. You know? Like, when my faith deconstructed, which it's done a couple of times at the very bottom, I was like, what do I know for sure? And for me, that's the existence of God. I know God. I know God's voice. I don't deconstruct below that for my personal experience. But everything else, I kind of am like, okay, God, like, what do you

Michelle Stone [00:41:32] want me to do?

Michelle Stone [00:41:33] I'm willing to be curious about a lot of things.

Shawn Delyn [00:41:38] Okay. So now as I'm trying to put this timeline together, you say Mark Hoffman was a family member of yours. You would have been living in the area where at least one of the bombings happened, and you would have been alive during the time Mark Hoffman was kind of caught exploding bombs and ultimately put in jail.

Family Connection to Mark Hofmann

Michelle Stone [00:41:59] Oh, yeah.

Michelle Stone [00:42:00] Did you have more questions?

Michelle Stone [00:42:01] Sorry.

Shawn Delyn [00:42:01] How old were you?

Michelle Stone [00:42:02] I have. I have vague. That's what I was gonna say. I have vague young, very young elementary school memories. Do you remember when Salt Lake downtown flooded, and there were the bridges, the wooden bridges.

Shawn Delyn [00:42:12] Weren't there boats going down, like Main Street?

Michelle Stone [00:42:15] I don't remember that, but I remember with my mom holding her hand, walking across the bridges on the way home from the recording studio. Right. I remember that. And I remember Mark Hoffman the same way. Just like little vague images because I don't think I was over eight years old.

Shawn Delyn [00:42:27] Okay, so that didn't register for you

Michelle Stone [00:42:28] as a thing I watched. I do remember. I do remember heartache in my family

Shawn Delyn [00:42:34] because he was family.

Michelle Stone [00:42:35] Mm. Well, his mother and father were. I'm sorry, I'm a little close to tears.

Shawn Delyn [00:42:41] We love emotions here.

Michelle Stone [00:42:43] His mother and father were beloved in the family.

Michelle Stone [00:42:46] And it really. That broke his dad.

Michelle Stone [00:42:50] His mind kind of broke, and he was never the same and didn't live much longer.

Michelle Stone [00:42:55] And then I know that Aunt Lou, everyone has just had, you know, it was more just like the horror for that this happened, you know, and for

Michelle Stone [00:43:05] those parents especially, where his dad had defended it, had believed him and defended him. And, you know, that's a.

Michelle Stone [00:43:11] That's a. I think that's where the

Michelle Stone [00:43:13] tragedy was for us. Not, I mean, not to minimize the huge tragedy for the Metcalfe and the Christiansen's and that, you know, like, not to minimize that at all. Because I think that tragedy was.

Michelle Stone [00:43:22] Was weighing on everyone.

Michelle Stone [00:43:24] There was just also this personal element.

Shawn Delyn [00:43:26] The shirts, right? No, no.

Michelle Stone [00:43:27] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [00:43:28] I won't get all the names right. But it was close to home with his parents because his dad was a beloved uncle. He taught all of my siblings to water ski. He'd take him out on the lake and be so patient with them and, you know, so there were a lot of personal connections there. Yeah. My oldest sister has much better memories of it than I do.

Shawn Delyn [00:43:52] Really quickly. Is there a theory in the family about what happened to Mark? Like, I always wondered whether he started uncovering problematic church history, was mad at the church for being misled, and then was trying to get back at the church with all the fraud, you know, with all the forgeries and everything to embarrass the church. But are there any theories in the family lore about, like, what happened to him?

Michelle Stone [00:44:16] Yeah, and I'm probably. I hope I don't upset any of my family members by speaking about this, because I'm sure, you know, my understanding from those who knew him is that he was just a really bad guy from young.

Shawn Delyn [00:44:30] Okay.

Michelle Stone [00:44:30] He was just a kind of a. I don't want to throw words around, but he lacked empathy and, you know, he just seemed kind of like a psychopath and narcissist. There's a story that they tell that my son sister told me that she remembered. So my handicapped sister that Passed away. Janae, you know, she was, I think Mark's age, and my older sister was a little older, and they were. They would go up to Bear Lake for family reunions every year before my time. But Mark had a metal detector, and he was getting convincing all of the kids that there was treasure in the sand because it would beep every time he would go. So all of the kids, you know, I don't know if there were 50 kids or what, but they were excitedly digging, and they just kept digging in that hot. Not playing in the water, not going on the boat. They were digging and digging, and he'd come over and put it in the hole and it would beep, and, you know, and they were exhausted. My handicapped sister was out there digging and, you know, and then after they had spent the entire day and he had goaded them on, he just laughed at their faces and showed them that he had been pushing the button manually and manipulating it. And that was pretty. That's something that several of my family members still talk about or, you know, remember, because it was so strange. And then there are several other stories like that. It's just like this is a very troubled person that likes to cause pain and doesn't have empathy. And I know that I've. I think it's in the Silmarillion. No, the. The. Oh, what's the book that was written about him. I know that there are theories that he discovered his post manifesto, Grandparents, and that's what said. No, not at all. We knew that was his grandparents. Like, I hear a lot of stories that I just don't think make sense at all. And so he went to England on his mission, already knowing what. He was already buying books, so the old paper. So I just think he was. I mean, it's hard to understand how there are people like that, but that's my understanding of it.

Shawn Delyn [00:46:22] I said shirts, but I meant Sheets. So Kathleen Sheets was one of his two victims, along with Stephen Christensen. Sorry, I got that wrong. Okay. Sounds like he was just born without empathy. You know, maybe that's how it appears to me. Yeah.

Michelle Stone [00:46:39] From the family stories. I know.

Shawn Delyn [00:46:40] Yeah. Okay. So if I think about the 80s and 90s. Oh, really quickly, there's a couple comments. So all Those opposed says MeToo 1994. Me, too. I played basketball against her.

Michelle Stone [00:46:58] We did. You know, she is one of my favorite followers. She's in your community. But she is brilliant and beautiful and awesome and leaves the best comments. So we've got to get together and play some ball.

Shawn Delyn [00:47:08] Shout out to all those opposed? Yeah. Yeah. Love her. Somebody wrote if Michelle wrote an autobiography, she could call it Michelle Stone rolling. That's a.

Michelle Stone [00:47:18] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [00:47:19] That's a comment section someone made. And then also Kolch. I know you just did a interview with Kolch. Colch said, Michelle is a good person. Thanks for having her on, John. So shout out from Colch from the culture hall.

Michelle Stone [00:47:30] I love Colch.

Shawn Delyn [00:47:31] Yeah. Okay. So when I think about the 80s and 90s, and this would have probably not been in your mind, but the 80s was kind of the rise of sunstone and dialogue hitting its stride. And then 93 would have been the. The September 6th excommunications. That's, you know, the last year I was at byu. You just made the sign. What?

Michelle Stone [00:47:53] I just.

Michelle Stone [00:47:54] Yeah, that was all I. I went to BYU in 94.

Michelle Stone [00:47:57] Did. Yeah.

Michelle Stone [00:47:58] Like. Like, I. I was just excited to go to school. So busy with all of my stuff I wasn't aware of. I don't think I was aware of any of those things happening.

Shawn Delyn [00:48:05] So all the. The Tanners. Had you learned about the Tanners?

Michelle Stone [00:48:08] Oh, I knew.

Michelle Stone [00:48:09] I knew the anti Mormon literature. Stay away from. From anti Mormon literature. And I don't know when I knew the name Gerald and Sandra Tanner, but maybe I did, you know.

Shawn Delyn [00:48:18] And were you taught growing up that the church. I guess you would have known in your family lore that you had ancestors who practiced polygamy. Would you have been taught any narrative about how polygamy started in the church or, you know, when it started with who it started, like up through high school, were you taught anything?

Michelle Stone [00:48:43] So it's hard to go back and know for sure what my mindset is, but I don't remember ever not knowing that Joseph originated polygamy. I hadn't studied Section 132, but I knew it was there, and I knew it was polygamy, and I knew it was from Joseph Smith. So I never had any reason. And polygamy, in my paradigm was a positive thing. Was the higher law. Right. So it would have been strange if it hadn't come from Joseph.

Shawn Delyn [00:49:09] Okay, so your. Your understanding from a young age was that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy?

Michelle Stone [00:49:16] I think so, yeah. If I. If I ever thought about it or

Shawn Delyn [00:49:19] questioned it and that whole explanation that, like, there were more women than men on the plains and that that's why there was polygamy, because there were women who didn't have husbands and that kind of thing. Was that ever told to you?

Michelle Stone [00:49:33] Do you remember that? I don't know. I don't. I Mean, I'm probably in seminary, but I don't know if it was in my family. Yeah, you know, probably just like everybody else, you learn that this was necessary for a time, because of. Which is a very frustrating narrative to me.

Shawn Delyn [00:49:50] Would you have been told about any of Joseph Smith's alleged plural wives growing up?

Michelle Stone [00:49:54] Probably not. I don't think I knew any of the details, but I don't think I knew any of the details of Brigham Young either. I didn't know the details of my ancestors, except just those stories I heard about my grandmother.

Shawn Delyn [00:50:04] Okay. How was byu?

Michelle Stone [00:50:07] It was great.

Michelle Stone [00:50:08] It was fun. I went and killed. It did really well. Was on full scholarship.

Shawn Delyn [00:50:15] Is this your husband?

Michelle Stone [00:50:16] Is my husband.

Shawn Delyn [00:50:17] Wait, you did. You were on scholarship?

Michelle Stone [00:50:20] Yes, yes.

Shawn Delyn [00:50:21] So did you leave sports behind and just do academics?

Michelle Stone [00:50:23] Yeah, I wanted to play. I wanted to play basketball, but I got a scholarship almost everywhere at byu, but I wanted to go to byu, so I just went and did intramural and, you know, did the sports. And then I actually ended up. Well, my first year, I just did all of the academic ges while I decided, and then I ended up majoring in music, dance, theater. So kind of a jack of all trades that I went from sports to music and dance.

Shawn Delyn [00:50:49] That's a tough major at byu.

Michelle Stone [00:50:50] It is.

Shawn Delyn [00:50:50] It's demanding, right? It's competitive.

Michelle Stone [00:50:53] Yes.

Shawn Delyn [00:50:53] Did you perform in any of the musicals at byu?

Michelle Stone [00:50:56] Oh, yeah. I mean, we were in the.

Shawn Delyn [00:50:58] Which ones?

Michelle Stone [00:50:58] Diong and the H vac. Oh, I'll have to remember. I know. I was in Jane Eyre. I was in. Nonsense. I was. Oh, I'll have to go back and. And see what.

Michelle Stone [00:51:07] What. All of.

Shawn Delyn [00:51:08] All of them were singing roles as well as drama. Dramatic roles.

Michelle Stone [00:51:12] Yeah, we did all dance, singing, and acting. It's all three combined.

Shawn Delyn [00:51:16] Do you have favorite musicals? I have to ask. Broadway musicals.

Michelle Stone [00:51:19] Do you know what's funny? I am a horrible fan. Like, I play every sport, but I don't watch sports. And I always loved performing and singing, but I actually have just been so busy with my kids. I don't go to a lot of shows, and I don't keep up with it.

Michelle Stone [00:51:35] And so.

Michelle Stone [00:51:35] And I chose my major. This is something that I've. I don't want to say I regret, but I chose my major to be around being a mom. I plan to be a mom so I can do a studio. I can teach, I can, you know, where I was really good at a lot of things, and it might have been fun for me to have somebody to tell me, hey, what would you think of pursuing this, I mean that major was awesome. It has served me well, but I do have a little bit of regret around that.

BYU Years, Marriage, and Early Family Life

Shawn Delyn [00:52:05] So anything notable about your time at byu? Is that where you met your husband, got married?

Michelle Stone [00:52:10] Yep. I had planned. I did not want to get married. I wanted to graduate, get a master's, go on a mission, then get married because I was so cool. And then I did. This was one of those experiences. I did not even want to date anymore because it was hard at BYU because I didn't want to get married. And you know, there are a lot of returned missionaries at BYU that do

Michelle Stone [00:52:32] want to get married.

Michelle Stone [00:52:33] So anyway, I didn't want to to date any more Richard missionaries till I got on admission. But I ended up saying yes when my husband asked me out because I couldn't think of an excuse. And then on that date I knew I was going to marry him and it kind of made me mad. But within a week and a half I was sold. So yeah, I was sold on him and we got married a couple months

Shawn Delyn [00:52:51] later at again what age?

Michelle Stone [00:52:53] I was 20 and he was 24.

Shawn Delyn [00:52:55] Okay.

Michelle Stone [00:52:56] He graduated from Utah State actually.

Shawn Delyn [00:52:58] Oh, he's an Aggie.

Michelle Stone [00:52:59] He is an Aggie, yes. A very dedicated Aggie. It was against his religion to marry a cougar, but yeah.

Shawn Delyn [00:53:09] Okay, so yeah, so tell us just about your early family.

Michelle Stone [00:53:15] So yeah, so I was at BYU and then ended up as soon as we got married I just felt there is a baby that's supposed to come and you know, anyway, I ended up having two little boys a year and a half apart and then ended up 18 months later, a year and a half later having birth control twins. So we had four babies under three, four in diapers together and it was like full bore motherhood all at once. Which actually I look at that as kind of a. I always put so much into anything that I did that in a way it was kind of like, okay, God knows me and knows that I have to do this all out. So yeah, I ended up not graduating because I had a baby and I couldn't go put him in daycare to go dance nine hours a day on campus. So if I had chosen a different major, I would have graduated, but I couldn't in MDT with a baby I could have, but I couldn't justify going and taking the dance classes I had left.

Shawn Delyn [00:54:16] Oh, okay, so you didn't finish started having kids and so what was, you know, what was your family kind of your child raising years like for you and for the church?

Michelle Stone [00:54:30] Okay. So then I became extremely dedicated to the church. I. I loved. I've always loved learning, but I. I began to just delve deeply into the scriptures, and I really loved the feeling. I still love the feeling of gaining an insight in the scriptures. That's one of the things that is just like, what is it? Delicious to my soul, you know? So I studied my scriptures a lot, and I had the impression. I felt inspired to homeschool my kids. So did motherhood, like, full out. And kept having children. And really, I came to a point where I actually really was struggling in the church because we lived in a neighborhood in Draper where I had. I think I had my sixth. While we were there, I had a couple of miscarriages as well, and I had four callings, all at the same time with my young family and felt like. I really kind of felt like I broke at that point with the demands and the. You know, it was just too much. I. It was like, this is taking so much more from my family than it's giving, and I can't. You know, I. I felt kind of broken at that point. And then I also.

Shawn Delyn [00:55:48] This is at what age this would

Michelle Stone [00:55:49] have been when I was approaching 30. Okay, getting close to 30.

Shawn Delyn [00:55:53] And how many kids?

Michelle Stone [00:55:54] Well, let me see. I better do the math. Maybe a little younger than that. I had my sixth. She's 18 now, so. Yeah, so I would have been 28, something like that.

Shawn Delyn [00:56:04] So you were starting to feel like you were breaking.

Michelle Stone [00:56:07] It just. Was it just trying. It was just a hard situation where we were living, and I was so conservative. I didn't want my children watching tv. I didn't want them eating candy. I didn't want them. You know, I really wanted to, like, raise them this perfect way. And it felt like they would go to church and be shown videos and eat candy. And I was running myself ragged trying to fill all these. I think at the same time, I was the young women's sports coordinator. I was the Cub Scout committee chair. I was asked to run a monthly mother and cat class. It was when they changed to the new enrichment Night, or Relief Society, whatever it was. And in addition to being a Relief Society. Oh, and then. And then I was being asked to substitute primary every single week. So it was. It was like, that shouldn't happen. It was too much. And I didn't have very understanding leadership. They were just kind of like, well, I've served in many callings, you know, so that was a. That was a rough time. And then at the same time, I didn't feel like I was being spiritually fed, like I wanted to be. So I kind of had a. It was just challenging where I just wanted more spiritually but less. Less demanded of me at that time. You know, if I've grown so much now, if I now were to go back to that period, I would handle it completely differently. I just didn't know that you could say, oh, that doesn't work for me. Sorry, really peacefully and be like, yeah, thanks for the offer. I'll stick with this one calling I have, you know, I really thought that you accept callings and you, you know.

Faith Challenges and Early Doubts

Shawn Delyn [00:57:43] So how did you work through that hard time?

Michelle Stone [00:57:46] Well, actually, I. Oh, this is a good question. So I kind of. I kind of say I had a reverse faith crisis because I was struggling so much before. Because also, in addition to feeling so many demands, I also felt like, how do I explain it? I was so invested in the scriptures. I studied them all the time. I loved them. I know you talk about scrupulosity. I don't think I would identify as scrupulosity at all because I don't have ocd. And it wasn't out of anxiety. It was out of desire and love and wanting to. And so I was learning so many things. And I think that's just one of my spiritual gifts, is seeing things in the scriptures that I want to share and having insights and, you know, and so I'd go to church so excited to share what I had learned, wanting to hear other people's. And it just felt like this. This is it. And I felt like if we are the one true church and we have the priesthood and the temple, then this is God's a team. This should be God's a team. And we. When we come together to discuss the scriptures, it should be like, next level. And instead it's this. And it was actually like, it sounds funny to talk about, but it was painfully disappointing. I was starving for spiritual nourishment and being able to share insights and gain insights. And my poor husband, because I'd come home from church just crying week after week when I would hear things taught that I did not believe were true and think, you know, like, oh, I mean, all kinds of things, right? Or sometimes it seemed like the lesson was much more about the teacher being impressive than about the subject matter. I just. I loved the scriptures and felt like we weren't taking them quite seriously enough. So for me, actually, when I. And then also reading the Book of Mormon, I kept getting some messages from the Book of Mormon that felt really Profound to me. And I didn't see anybody else talking about them. So it was when I started studying church history the first time that I kind of realized, oh, oh, the church has some problems. Oh, I'm expecting too much. It's not what I thought it was. Oh, I'm okay. I was more okay at that point when I learned some of the problems of church history because it solved that massive cognitive dissonance I was struggling with at that time where I felt like the church should be so much more. I had way too high of expectations.

Shawn Delyn [01:00:10] Well, I'm torn about that because, I mean, if this is the one true church and if the stakes are as high as kind of the plan of salvation suggests, then we should be taking all this super seriously and really focused and committed and dedicated. And there's always this idea that milk before meat, but that implies you eventually get to the meat. So there's. I think we're all primed to believe that at some point we will get to the meat. And so to thirst for knowledge and truth. I think that's very Mormon.

Michelle Stone [01:00:40] Yeah, yeah. And I also, I have to say, I think that we go through different phases of our life. You would know more as a psychologist than, you know, this is just my perception. But also I think that at that point I tended to be a little more critical. I saw kind of the things that were not right. And it took me a little bit more growth to realize, oh, everyone is people. And look at those amazing people and those amazing people. Do you know what I mean? So I think looking back, I was, I agree with you that, man, we could really up the level, you know. But I have met so many people who do that, who are really inspired and inspiring. I've been to a lot of incredible, incredible lessons in addition to some that are, you know, ho hum, whatever they are. So I've gained a different perspective now where I am much more aware of the good and the bad. Whereas I think at that point I was really kind of, not intentionally, but just really focused on the things that were hard around.

Shawn Delyn [01:01:41] What year was this? Just approximately, we're kind of this first dip crisis.

Michelle Stone [01:01:47] Oh. Oh, man. So, okay. We moved from Draper to highland when my 18 year old was about one. So about 17 years ago. Like what? 18? I mean, it was a good couple of years.

Shawn Delyn [01:02:03] 2002, 2003.

Michelle Stone [01:02:05] It was several years.

Shawn Delyn [01:02:07] Did you start confronting kind of challenges to more mature truth claims at this point? Did that stuff entered your consciousness?

Michelle Stone [01:02:15] Well, yeah. I mean, when you came on online, I started watching you quite.

Shawn Delyn [01:02:20] In 2005.

Michelle Stone [01:02:22] Well, I. Okay, I could be wrong, but the first episode I remember watching live, I had watched a lot of recorded episodes, but I think the first one I remember watching live, if I'm remembering correctly, was your episode with Edward Kimball. Do you remember that?

Shawn Delyn [01:02:36] Yeah. And we didn't livestream, but we published that on YouTube, so you would have.

Michelle Stone [01:02:40] And so I was watching before that. Whatever.

Shawn Delyn [01:02:42] Oh, wow.

Michelle Stone [01:02:43] That was.

Shawn Delyn [01:02:43] Okay, so you're tuning into more mistakes stories pretty early on.

Michelle Stone [01:02:48] Okay, so as well as reading a ton and. Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [01:02:53] So were you reading, like, signature books kind of books?

Michelle Stone [01:02:55] Well, I shouldn't. I was still reading the scriptures heavily. And I also. I think that I would read things that would make me think deeply. Right. So I really. I mentioned this on another conversation I had. I would tune into every, like, atheist versus theist debate I could find. I would tune into, you know, all of the debates around epistemology and ways of knowing. And, you know, I just loved learning all of that. And once I was kind of opened up to, okay, what is this whole wide world of learning that we can have? So in addition to listening to your podcast, and I think in those early years, if I'm not mistaken, but my impression was that you were very kind of neutral and open and seeking and not, you know, you were in a different space than you necessarily are now after some additional things have happened in those early years.

Shawn Delyn [01:03:51] Yeah, I mean, I was trying to help the church work through these difficult historical.

Michelle Stone [01:03:56] And trying to help people, I think, as well.

Shawn Delyn [01:03:57] I mean, I still feel that way, but I mean, at the time I was in the church trying to help the church from within.

Michelle Stone [01:04:02] So yeah.

Shawn Delyn [01:04:05] Okay, so would you say in Those early to mid 2000s that you had a crisis of faith?

Michelle Stone [01:04:12] Well, and maybe it's a little later than that, but no, it would have been. It would have been about then. And you know what? No, because my daughter, if she was 18, it would have been closer to 2006. Actually, she was 2006, 2007. I think we went back a little too far. So it would have been around that time period. And I would say, yes, I did. I mean, that was one of my. I've had several sort of deconstructions. That was one of them.

Shawn Delyn [01:04:36] Okay, but did you have, like, a dark night of the soul at that point where you're wondering if the church is even true?

Michelle Stone [01:04:43] Well, that had happened before. Like I said, I had had all that cognitive dissonance going. Why is the reality so different from what it should be? And so When I. When I realized, oh, we have problems in our history, it actually. It actually eased that. That struggle for me because I was like, oh, okay. It's okay if we aren't what I expect.

Shawn Delyn [01:05:05] So what were some of the problems you were wrestling with in the church's history during that time period now?

Michelle Stone [01:05:12] What. What do you mean? I. So I was wrestling with my expectation of being filled with the spirit. So. So I didn't wrestle with church history as much. Like, when I started reading things about Brigham Young or. Or those different things, I was kind of like, oh, okay, okay, that explains it.

Shawn Delyn [01:05:29] Okay, so, like, we're talking pre CS letter here. Early Mormon stories days. You weren't wondering about Book of Abraham or Book of Mormon historicity?

Michelle Stone [01:05:38] I mean, I had the. I knew the Book of Mormon historicity questions. I don't think I was into the Book of Abraham yet. Probably to some extent, but not like,

Shawn Delyn [01:05:47] were you putting stuff on your shelf, historical stuff on your shelf at that point?

Michelle Stone [01:05:51] I. I think. I think I was really, really busy with my family.

Shawn Delyn [01:05:55] That makes sense.

Michelle Stone [01:05:55] And. And listening and fitting it in around when I could, you know, doing the dishes, listening to things, books.

Shawn Delyn [01:06:01] It's kind of that Mormon mom with young kids haze.

Michelle Stone [01:06:06] Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [01:06:07] It lasts. And I have 15 years.

Michelle Stone [01:06:09] 20 years for me, because I. So I have 13 children.

Michelle Stone [01:06:12] Right.

Michelle Stone [01:06:13] And so it's been a lot of years.

Shawn Delyn [01:06:14] Oh, wow.

Michelle Stone [01:06:15] Raising children.

Shawn Delyn [01:06:16] And what. Why 13? Like, was there doctrinal teaching behind that?

Michelle Stone [01:06:24] So my husband and I, when we dated, like, I don't. So I have inherited just this legacy of motherhood from my great grandmother. My grandmother, my mom just loved being moms. I always was really good with kids, loved kids. And when I dated my husband and he said he wanted seven or eight, I think he said eight, but he said. Says that he wanted seven. I was like, awesome. You know, it was never a specific decision. So we planned to have seven or eight. But it was funny. I just always, like I said, I have been one that has felt like I didn't plan to have a first baby right. So quickly when we got married, but I just felt like there is a baby that's supposed to come, you know, and then we had the twins. And then I've had several miscarriages, but it would just be when I first felt like there is a baby that's supposed to come. And then we also like tmi, but we've never had, for a variety of reasons, we've never had a good and reliable form of birth control. I don't want to say that to say we regret having so many children, but it's just like, we had several that were like, oh, okay, I guess that's happening now as well. But I can share a story if that's okay. So I actually don't have easy pregnancies. People will often think, oh, he must. I have really quite terrible pregnancies. And when I had my 11th, I actually had, like, really an identity crisis because there were people that did not. I mean, it's an unusual amount of children, so there's a lot of judgment that comes at you, and some of it was very personal and difficult. So, anyway, I was really struggling, struggling with it, and I just had this profound answer where the Lord kind of healed me and just showed me how much joy this baby would bring and how happy I was to be having this baby, and then said, and the next baby will bring just as much joy. So I was like, okay, I guess we're having a 12th, right? So that was my plan. And then my 11th ended up having health problems, and we spent several months in and out of the hospital and then with home care, not knowing if we would get to keep him. And. And that was challenging because I had 10 other children, so being in the hospital for extended periods and, you know, it was really challenging. And I remember just, like, when I would be able to go out and walk or run, I would just say, lord, I know you promised more joy, but I'm all joyed up. We're done. Like, if you wanted me to have another one, you should have sent a healthy one, you know? And so I hope this story is okay. I know people are going to hear this all through their own ears. I just have to share my experience, right? But he had really severe health problems.

Michelle Stone [01:08:59] And one night when I was holding

Michelle Stone [01:09:01] him and trying to take care of him and comfort, and he was just in pain a lot.

Michelle Stone [01:09:06] And I. I just prayed like I always. But I was like, lord, is there anything I can do? And, like, what can I do to help him? Because he was just not improving. And.

Michelle Stone [01:09:21] And I just had this understanding that

Michelle Stone [01:09:25] his job is to make sure his

Michelle Stone [01:09:26] friend gets to come.

Michelle Stone [01:09:27] And so it felt to me like he couldn't settle into his body all the way somehow.

Michelle Stone [01:09:31] I know this will sound crazy to people, but that was what I felt.

Michelle Stone [01:09:34] He can't fully settle into his body because it's his job to make sure

Michelle Stone [01:09:37] his friend gets to come. So I said, lord, if I promise to do everything in my power to

Michelle Stone [01:09:41] have this next baby, can he be healed? And from that Day on, he was, it was like, it felt to me completely miraculous. He started improving, he started gaining weight,

Michelle Stone [01:09:54] his painful episodes started to completely minimize. And anyway, and so it was hard for us to have our number 12 because there was more controversy and adversary and disapproval and judgment. It's so funny, we know as a society not to tell someone when are you having children? But we somehow don't know not to say, hey, you have enough children, stop having children. You know, we're allowed to judge on that side. So anyway, we ended up finally getting pregnant and having our 12th that I felt like we were told to have. And then when she was just about two months old, I learned that she had an undiagnosed heart condition that they had missed. She didn't have the left half of the.

Michelle Stone [01:10:41] Her heart.

Michelle Stone [01:10:41] And so, so she ended up passing away.

Michelle Stone [01:10:44] And that was actually. Sorry. She was awesome. That was hard because I had to grapple with the possibility that this God I had loved my whole life was actually cruel to tell me to have this baby, you know, but, but actually that didn't. There were so. There are so many parts of this story that I'm not telling you. My daughter in law got pregnant right before we did. So it was really hard to get pregnant because we're doing that whole, hey, we're pregnant sometime. But there were so many answers and she was amazing. Her baby, her ultrasound, her baby was diagnosed with a heart condition and they had to go to the specialist the next day. We all fasted and prayed and the next day her baby's heart was fine and they were like, we don't know what you were seeing. And my baby's heart on the ultrasound seemed fine, but you know, so, so it felt, I mean, there's more to the story, but when I was holding my little girl after she had passed away and I looked back and saw my daughter in law holding her little girl with my husband, my son, with his arm around her. I just thought like, I wouldn't trade, I wouldn't want it to be theirs instead of mine, you know, so I, so I felt purpose in it in a way. And then, and then, then it was a mess because my youngest baby had passed away. Like I have seven boys and this is my little girl, you know, and. And it was really, really hard and I was a complete mess. So finally one day I felt like the Lord just calmed the sea. Like, like it was just this raging storm for months of what do I do? How do I fix this? You know, like it's is quite a thing. To lose a nursing baby, because you don't. You can't even sleep to get away from it. You know, you get up multiple times in the night to go to the empty crib.

Health Crises, Loss, and Spiritual Experiences

Michelle Stone [01:12:39] Sorry.

Michelle Stone [01:12:40] So anyway, when the. So one day, the Lord I felt, it just calmed the sea. And it was just. The words were, you don't know what you want, but I know what you want, and if you trust me, I'll give you what you want. And I just said, okay, okay, you know, like, whatever it's going to be. Because I couldn't imagine ending on a loss like our last baby died and that's it. And, you know, and somehow in my mind, I think you think it will fix something to have another one. But the thought of facing another pregnancy about did me. And I was in my mid-40s, and pregnancies are really hard, you know, and so when the. And then I just. The worst outcome I could imagine is

Michelle Stone [01:13:24] a little boy with down syndrome, because

Michelle Stone [01:13:25] I already have seven boys. And, you know, and down syndrome is the worst thing you can imagine as an older mom, so. But we ended up getting pregnant again, and I was like, okay, it's what I want. The Lord told me, whatever it is, it's what I want. And so. And, you know, the world was strange. My first little girl passed away in 2020, and then now this was 2021. And I really.

Shawn Delyn [01:13:47] This is four years ago.

Michelle Stone [01:13:49] Yeah. And I had really Having. Losing a child in 2020 in the hospitals was not a good experience. There were some really horrific things that happened that left me, you know, like, quite traumatized. And so I knew, like, with my 13th, I just knew I needed an ultrasound and I needed medical care. And because I had been so traumatized with 2020, I couldn't wear a mask. And I know that may sound extreme, but if people understood the story, they might understand a little more. And so I wasn't able to wear a mask. I just was not doing great. So I was refused medical care. I called something like 20 doctors, even reaching out to my Stake Relief Society president, whose husband was a doctor. They just all said, sorry, there's nothing we can do. And so I ended up finally being able to go just to some guy's

Michelle Stone [01:14:45] basement and get an ultrasound, you know,

Michelle Stone [01:14:46] some guy that had a machine. And my husband and I, on our own studying, realized that she had what's called Edwards syndrome, based on the. Which is like, down syndrome is the good one, because the babies live, you know, there are worse ones. And that was the point where I had been Told you don't know what you want, but if you trust me, I'll give you what you want. And now I was pregnant with a baby that we didn't get to keep. Another little girl. And that was when I really did have to face the horrible possibility that we're in a universe where God is a monster, you know, where God would do this, like, twice, tell me to have a baby. And even when I got pregnant again that 13th time, it. I hadn't expected to have to grieve again. But feeling in my body the price I had paid for my little Avonlea. It was my first little girl that passed away. And feeling again that I was paying that price. But even paying that price wouldn't bring her back. You know, I kind of knew that. I don't know. So I found myself in this horrible reality where it was suffering in this pregnancy with a baby we didn't get to keep, and there was no way out and nothing I could do, and trapped in this universe with where God could do something like this. And so I. I had to grapple with that for a while. And at the same time, if I told you the things that happened during those years, I don't know why, but for some reason, that was just like. I was dealing with nine things at the same time. Any one of which wipes somebody out. You know, we had huge things happen. My husband and I were not doing well. Our marriage was ending. We were leaving. I was leaving the church. We had family estrangement on both sides. Just 2020 and 2021 were hard years,

Michelle Stone [01:16:38] you know, leaving the church.

Michelle Stone [01:16:40] Oh, yeah. Like two really hard times in the

Michelle Stone [01:16:44] church for me were 2015 and 2020 with just different way things were handled. You know, the experience I had in 2020 did not work well with how the church was handling things for me.

Shawn Delyn [01:16:55] Do you want to. Well, I don't want to pass over the passing of your children.

Michelle Stone [01:17:00] Yeah, it just was. I felt like. I felt like.

Michelle Stone [01:17:05] Well, and I don't know if we need to get into this. Just my perspective was mine, you know, I'm not saying I'm right.

Michelle Stone [01:17:09] It was just when I read the Scriptures, Jesus cared for the sick, and we have all of these miracles of

Michelle Stone [01:17:15] healing, and, you know, I was troubled

Michelle Stone [01:17:17] by the church's response.

Michelle Stone [01:17:19] It just seemed troubled to me. And the November 2015 policy, well, that had been a previous one, but also in 2020, it was just. It was just hard for me because I had been so traumatized in the hospital. Anyway, I'm clear.

Shawn Delyn [01:17:34] Oh, so the church's response to Covid

Michelle Stone [01:17:37] was hard for me.

Shawn Delyn [01:17:37] Was the second strike to your testimony?

Michelle Stone [01:17:43] I have faced a couple of different times where I didn't think I could stay.

Michelle Stone [01:17:47] Where I just was like, I'm done. You know, and one of them was around 2015. And what happened those years, combined with

Michelle Stone [01:17:56] some other more personal experiences that happened, where I felt like I experienced some

Michelle Stone [01:18:00] ecclesiastical abuse and I could, you know,

Michelle Stone [01:18:02] I couldn't find a way to stay at that point until.

Michelle Stone [01:18:05] I mean, that was one of the times.

Michelle Stone [01:18:06] And then in 2020, I was like, okay, we're done, we're done. You know?

Shawn Delyn [01:18:11] And are those things you prefer not to talk about?

Michelle Stone [01:18:14] I don't know. I'll finish this story. Maybe we can go back into them.

Shawn Delyn [01:18:18] Yeah. Yeah. Perfect.

Michelle Stone [01:18:19] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [01:18:19] And maybe I've gone into this story too much.

Michelle Stone [01:18:21] It just the thing I wanted to. Yeah. Like, I guess I was just saying

Michelle Stone [01:18:25] during these years, I don't know why I'm. You're a psychologist, John, and I'm in this chair, so I'm just unleashing. But we were dealing with a lot. My son got engaged. I was pregnant with a baby we didn't get to keep. I was still grieving my previous baby.

Michelle Stone [01:18:40] We had a son attempt suicide. We had a son have a 15 foot fall and land on the side of his head on the trampoline bar that we were nursing him from a pretty good tbi. We, you know, it just was. My husband had three surgeries during that time. It was just like unbelievable. Unbelievably intense.

Shawn Delyn [01:19:00] It's like job stuff.

Michelle Stone [01:19:02] I mean, it felt like I was. I was just like. Like I just was waving the white flag. I was like, I have babies on both sides. This baby doesn't get to stay and I'll just go with her is kind of what I thought at that point. It was a lot, you know. But one day, I think I was 15 weeks along when we found out about my little girl. And her name was Avery. And the organization, the support organization for

Michelle Stone [01:19:30] Edward syndrome is called Avery's Angels.

Michelle Stone [01:19:33] You know, so we really just felt little, little signs along the way. But one day when I was just really struggling and I. That reality of that God might be cruel while I'm dealing with these different things was challenging, you know, like, is this all just a horrific joke? You know, And. And I just had a conduit open and that just showed me my life going forward without any details with my little. My little boy, my little 11th as my youngest. And I just had this realization Because I knew, like, my two little girls always wanted to be together. They always were supposed to be together. And that had. Knowing that had kind of comforted me. Previously, I'd had an experience where both of my little girls came to me while I was pregnant and let me know they were always supposed to be sisters. They always wanted to be together, you know? So I thought, okay, we won't have Avonlea, but we'll have Avery. And Avonlea's always with Avery, so we will always have Avery with us, you know? But then when I learned that we weren't keeping Avery, it meant something different. But I just kind of realized they always were supposed to be together. They always wanted to be sisters. I was supposed to be their mom. And the Lord just showed me this path and said, this is what you want. Like, on the grand scale, this is exactly what you want. Like, my belief is that we, you know, we wanted things before we came here. We had things to accomplish. And for years in my motherhood, I had known there were things I was supposed to say and things I was supposed to write. I didn't know what. I just knew that there were things I was. And I actually kind of struggled to not be able to do things.

Michelle Stone [01:21:18] I was.

Michelle Stone [01:21:18] You know, I was just being told to have another baby. So that kind of felt like the first time of the Lord saying, like, I know this is hard, but this is what you want, you know? And it really.

Shawn Delyn [01:21:31] It's what you want.

Michelle Stone [01:21:32] It was what I want. The Lord said, this is what you want. And it actually. I knew it. Like, I knew that that was true, that he wanted. That I wanted that I always.

Shawn Delyn [01:21:41] He said, you wanted to lose two children?

Michelle Stone [01:21:44] It's not that I wanted to lose two children.

Michelle Stone [01:21:45] It's that I wanted to be their mother. And this is the way they came. If we'd been able to keep my little number 12, we wouldn't have had her little sister, right? And once I felt how much they wanted to be together, I wanted them together, you know, I wanted.

Shawn Delyn [01:22:00] So maybe this was Heavenly Father's way of having them have a companionship in heaven while their families was still here on earth. And they wouldn't be alone. The first wouldn't be alone.

Michelle Stone [01:22:13] No, that was more. I mean, I don't think it was just. I just knew these two little girls were supposed to come this way. They were supposed to be my daughters,

Michelle Stone [01:22:23] and they were supposed to just come

Michelle Stone [01:22:24] for a short time.

Michelle Stone [01:22:25] And I had other work to do, you know? And I will share one more experience because, Well, Anyway, I did have an experience with one of my little girls where my heart was so shattered, and I was not okay. You know, like, at the hospital before she passed away, she'd been ripped out of my arms and taken on the life flight while I was held from behind. And they didn't let me go so by myself, because I didn't let my husband in. Within just a few minutes, I went from thinking my little girl was sick to learning she was gonna die. And then immediately, she was ripped out of my arms and flown to a hospital 45 minutes away that I wasn't allowed to go to. And they tried to keep me locked out of the. It's a long story. I'm like, this is a nursing baby. What is wrong?

Shawn Delyn [01:23:15] Primary Children's, were they gonna take.

Michelle Stone [01:23:17] I was at Provo Hospital, and they

Michelle Stone [01:23:19] flew her to Primary Children's.

Michelle Stone [01:23:20] And I called my husband on the way there and said, go, go. She's alone. You'll get there before I do. And so he got there before I did. So when I got there, like I said, when I got there, they told

Michelle Stone [01:23:29] me I needed to go home and

Michelle Stone [01:23:30] come back in 24 hours. And, you know, I mean, there were a lot of things that were extremely challenging throughout that I didn't go home. They called security, but then they let me in, you know, because, anyway, it was challenging. And so when she passed away and they needed to come and take her body, I couldn't. Like, I'd been so traumatized by all of this that I couldn't let her go. So my husband was giving all of us blessings. And he said something about how much she loved me, which I. I had never thought of. I know. I know I love my baby, but I hadn't thought that she loved me, you know? I mean, you don't think about that with an infant. And so it made me just think, where is she? Like. Like, you know, and it was at that point that I. That I saw her. Like, I know what she looks like, what her hair is, like, how she walks, you know, and she just walked behind me. She. I mean, you know, I guess it's the stereotypical Mormon idea, you know, but it was my experience that I saw her, and she walked behind me and wrapped her arms around me and kind of in. And just put my heart back together. Like, she just kind of healed my heart. And that changed everything. I was. I did, you know, Like. Like, that was a beautiful, beautiful experience. And so I'm. I do feel very close to my little girls.

Shawn Delyn [01:25:02] I am so sorry Well, I mean, I don't know. I don't. It's not my place to say I'm sorry or offer.

Michelle Stone [01:25:07] Oh, no, please be sorry.

Shawn Delyn [01:25:08] Please be sorry.

Michelle Stone [01:25:09] Yes. It's not okay.

Shawn Delyn [01:25:11] I'm so sorry you had to lose those last two. I can't imagine I have four and I can't imagine losing one, let alone two. How many children survive right now?

Michelle Stone [01:25:24] 11. My other 11.

Shawn Delyn [01:25:26] Okay.

Michelle Stone [01:25:27] My youngest is seven. That little number. 11 is.

Shawn Delyn [01:25:29] So. 11 survived. Two. How many passed away?

Michelle Stone [01:25:33] Just those two.

Michelle Stone [01:25:33] Just my two little girls.

Shawn Delyn [01:25:34] Okay. I'm so sorry. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for being vulnerable. That's so heartbreaking. I'm so sorry.

Michelle Stone [01:25:43] Thanks, John.

Michelle Stone [01:25:43] I appreciate that.

Shawn Delyn [01:25:44] I mean, words can't mean much, but. And that's so much trauma. I don't know if you said traumatic

Michelle Stone [01:25:58] it was.

Shawn Delyn [01:26:00] You would probably. I can't say you would meet criteria for a PTSD diagnosis, but I think what you have been through would certainly qualify as trauma.

Michelle Stone [01:26:13] Yes, yes. But I will say also on the other side of it, I have experienced the, like, incredible healing power of the Lord. That experience with my little girl really helped me. And then I also had. Have had different experiences. I had a dream that healed a big piece of it. I do feel like I did have ptsd. I really, really struggled during those years,

Michelle Stone [01:26:41] but I don't feel like I do now.

Michelle Stone [01:26:44] I feel like I can.

Michelle Stone [01:26:47] I'm not tormented by any of those things anymore.

Shawn Delyn [01:26:51] Wow.

Michelle Stone [01:26:51] I feel like I've really been. Yeah. I mean, you know, I don't know the clinical terminology, but I have experienced the Lord's ability to heal.

Shawn Delyn [01:27:02] Do you think of it as the atonement? What do you think of it as? Just the power of God again, I

Michelle Stone [01:27:08] just think of it as my connection to God. I don't know how I would define it.

Michelle Stone [01:27:12] I just know that I have had experiences with God sometimes just incredible wisdom and just peace and, you know, I've had those kinds of experiences several times.

Michelle Stone [01:27:25] So.

Shawn Delyn [01:27:28] I mean, what irony that you have these tragic deaths, but also they bring forth these miraculous spiritual experiences for you that are life changing and healing? Like.

Michelle Stone [01:27:47] Yeah, I guess. I mean, yeah, like, like I, I do. I just. Those experiences have been good for me to like really deepen my faith in the goodness of God. Because I've seen. I've seen it repeatedly. I've seen what seemed like an unthinkable tragedy from a cruel God be given so much purpose, meaning and love and comfort. You know, like, like, I really, I really. It's. It's been Good to have. No, I don't. Like. I like to have no fear. I know that whatever happens, God can heal me.

Shawn Delyn [01:28:25] Oh. Like, I'm thinking about the. The philosophical exercise of. I think it's called the theodicy, where, like, how can God be all powerful and all loving and. And then there's such suffering. And those of us maybe who haven't experienced the tragedy that you have philosophize about how can there be evil and terrible things in the world, but God still be loving and all powerful? And then we think about how we can make all that square or can't. Like, you kind of lived the theodicy horrific tragedy, and yet instead of saying there's no God or instead of saying God's evil, your conclusion after having the miraculous experiences is that God is incredibly loving in spite of the horrific things that happen to you with God in charge, like, you're living.

Michelle Stone [01:29:17] I actually stated that very well. Yes. Like, I believe to my core in the goodness and the greatness of God. Like, I've seen it too much. Constantly.

Shawn Delyn [01:29:28] Wow. Dang. Well, thank you for sharing. And there's a. There's a gazillion very kind and complimentary comments coming. So the viewers and listeners are.

Michelle Stone [01:29:40] I will.

Shawn Delyn [01:29:40] Are touched and I appreciate that.

Michelle Stone [01:29:42] And I will go ahead and say. I know I get criticism for crying, and I just want to. Like, I never was a crier. Like, my husband has always teased me that when he proposed, he cried and I didn't. When we got married, he cried and I didn't. I never. But. But I am now. I'm much closer to tears than I used to be. And I think that's okay.

Shawn Delyn [01:30:03] We love all the emotions on Mormon stories, and crying is nothing to apologize for on Mormon stories, that's for sure. I don't. I want to show your story all the respect it deserves. But I do have a couple quick questions, if it's okay.

Michelle Stone [01:30:20] Sure.

Shawn Delyn [01:30:21] So the one thing that came to my mind as you were telling the story was Saturday's Warrior and the narrative. Cause it's, you know, this is the play, the musical that was, you know, released in the 70s, and it's got the Flinders family and they have all these kids, but. And there's, you know, there's this Zero population song about, like, we should limit our posterity. But then the Flinders family has all these kids. I think they're jokes about the mom being pregnant at her daughter's wedding. Guilty.

Michelle Stone [01:30:53] Yeah. What?

Shawn Delyn [01:30:53] Say it again.

Michelle Stone [01:30:54] Guilty.

Shawn Delyn [01:30:55] Yes.

Michelle Stone [01:30:56] On a mission.

Michelle Stone [01:30:56] And.

Michelle Stone [01:30:57] Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [01:30:58] But also this idea that There are spirits in heaven before we were all in heaven as spirits before we came here. And maybe we agreed in heaven that certain children would be with certain parents and there were understandings made and that if you don't have all the babies here, those spirits won't. You won't be fulfilling your promise to the baby spirits and. Or those baby spirits will go to other non Mormon families and they won't have. Like, it's sounding, your story feels very Mormonish to me and informed by either Mormon doctrine or Mormon culture. But like, it's sounding like you would have been heavily influenced by that to have so many children even into your mid-40s, by kind of traditional orthodox Mormon culture. Is that fair? Not fair?

Michelle Stone [01:31:55] No.

Michelle Stone [01:31:56] I actually don't resonate with that at all. And I can explain why. Like, so I was always too cool and I thought Saturday Warrior was cheesy and you know, and listen to me when my mom has all of her cheesy music that I love. You know, I guess I just didn't ever really resonate with those ideas. And so for me, it wasn't at all about we need to have all the babies we can or we need. It was purely, I feel like there's a baby that's supposed to come in this moment. Do you know what I mean?

Shawn Delyn [01:32:26] You feel like that wasn't a Mormon priming or Mormon influence. That was just you and your connection to the divine separate from Mormon culture, theology.

Michelle Stone [01:32:35] Well, I will say this, that I've actually always been thankful that, that my mom has been so supportive of my family because I've taken like, in Mormonism,

Michelle Stone [01:32:45] I've actually taken a lot of heat

Michelle Stone [01:32:47] for having a big family. It's not very normal in the church.

Michelle Stone [01:32:49] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [01:32:50] Oh, for sure.

Shawn Delyn [01:32:50] So you felt like the surrounding culture, Mormon culture, was saying, why are you having so many babies?

Michelle Stone [01:32:56] I mean, that was one of the reasons when we moved to Utah county, we moved into a neighborhood and like the woman down the street had raised 11, the woman next door had raised nine. I felt like I can and nobody will be rude to me, you know, I mean, they were all older. We moved in and we were the young family in a grown up neighborhood. But yeah, I had taken a ton of criticism. So I always felt like I had,

Michelle Stone [01:33:20] like it was God. I feel like God is telling me

Michelle Stone [01:33:26] to have this baby and I will do it even in the face of all of this. But I was so thankful. Like, I know that this is controversial and different people say it different ways, but I was meant to be a

Michelle Stone [01:33:39] Mom, you know, and I've been thankful to be part of a family and

Michelle Stone [01:33:46] a culture and a religion that supported that. That didn't make me feel less than

Michelle Stone [01:33:51] or like I needed to make a different choice, you know, because it can swing either way so easily.

Michelle Stone [01:33:59] And so, no, I didn't feel it all like, oh, it's our obligation. You know, I had to defend myself.

Michelle Stone [01:34:05] Like, you know, studying the.

Michelle Stone [01:34:08] What was the famous bet between Paul Ehrlich and Julian Simon, if I'm getting the names right?

Michelle Stone [01:34:13] Right.

Michelle Stone [01:34:13] Like, I studied Thomas Malthus quite a bit, Malthusianism when I did my episode on contraception and birth control. And I just disagree with those ideas. And I love what Julian Simon says, that our children are our greatest resource. And so I know that some people think there are too many people in this world. I think that's a sad. A sad idea. Just in terms of, well, who should be killed, do you know? Like, that's kind of worse than genocidal. It's like Species Idol or whatever. And, you know, and I do. I have done my best to raise my children. Well, I'm not saying that I want everybody to do what I have done at all.

Michelle Stone [01:34:51] I just want the ability to do

Michelle Stone [01:34:53] what I felt like I was supposed to do without facing everybody's criticism.

Shawn Delyn [01:34:57] Yeah, okay. Sounds like you're very pro life

Michelle Stone [01:35:01] in

Shawn Delyn [01:35:02] terms of, like, the abortion and.

Michelle Stone [01:35:04] Well, see, all of these issues are complicated for me. When I was pregnant with my 13th,

Michelle Stone [01:35:09] I desperately wanted to just deliver her. I didn't want an abortion. I wanted my baby, but I knew I didn't get her. And I couldn't stand the thought of suffering through, you know, six more months of hell. Like, that pregnancy when. Because of her complications. Like that was part of why it was really hard to be refused medical care because. So I just. I think that I tend to be libertarian leaning and I think, what is it?

Michelle Stone [01:35:40] Is it Alma, that said preaching the word has more effect on people's hearts than the law?

Michelle Stone [01:35:45] You know, I think. I do think that abortion is a sad thing, especially I think that women

Michelle Stone [01:35:50] do it because they don't feel like they have a choice or girls do, and that's actually not giving them a choice. So I wish there were better options for most people. So my ideas on that are a little bit complicated. But, yes, I really love people who go and support women in being able to keep their baby.

Navigating Pregnancy Loss and Personal Inspiration

Shawn Delyn [01:36:06] You don't have to answer this, but it sounds like your last pregnancy may have been terminated.

Michelle Stone [01:36:11] No, no, I carried her. I went through. I really wanted to just deliver her. I got really angry when my husband said, you want an abortion? I got really angry because I was like, no, I just don't. I don't have any control over when she dies. But she's going to die, you know. But I did finally, I was struggling and my good friend, I have to call out Kara, because she literally saved my life. And she came over one day and sat with me and just said, well, when I was in this pregnancy, this dismal time, she just said, michelle, what can we hope for? And I had learned something that really troubled me, that a stillborn baby isn't put on the records of the church. And with knowing that my girls always wanted to be together, I could not stand the thought of any list of our family that had one of my little girls and not the other one. So I knew that if my little girl wasn't born alive, we would remove our records for that reason. And anyway, so when she asked, what can we pray for? And I just had the impression that she could be born alive, you know, because with that condition, my understanding is about a third of the babies die in utero. About a third died during birth and then the other third, without intensive medical

Michelle Stone [01:37:27] care for the ones that aren't as severely affected, the rest of them will die within the first days of life.

Shawn Delyn [01:37:33] So how many months did you carry your last?

Michelle Stone [01:37:35] I was 36 weeks, but I was measuring like 49 centimeters because I had, oh, I can't remember the term. She couldn't swallow. So they were worried about a uterine rupture. It was hellish. But I'm here on the other side of it.

Shawn Delyn [01:37:53] So you didn't terminate the pregnancy, but you feel like there's a place for medically.

Michelle Stone [01:37:58] I just don't want to. I am pro life.

Michelle Stone [01:38:01] I'm very much like.

Michelle Stone [01:38:02] I think lives are precious and I don't want women to feel like they are facing that awful choice. Right. But I'm not always sure that law, I don't know, I have complicated feelings about it. I would just.

Michelle Stone [01:38:15] I just want.

Shawn Delyn [01:38:17] It sounds like you want to preserve the legal right for a medical termination of pregnancy. If health.

Michelle Stone [01:38:25] I will say I was thankful to

Michelle Stone [01:38:27] live in a state where if I

Michelle Stone [01:38:29] hadn't been refused medical care, that would been. Have have been an option. I felt very thankful for that.

Shawn Delyn [01:38:34] So pro life in terms of you love life and you don't want to ever support the casual termination of life, but a recognition of sometimes the medical need for there to be termination of

Michelle Stone [01:38:47] pregnancy, I think Just, yeah, I want to be empathetic.

Michelle Stone [01:38:52] I think that sometimes women think. What I object to is the idea that this is a solution, that abortion is just like an easy. And I think that that isn't necessarily the case. I think there are many women who are scarred deeply. So I would like to prevent it whenever possible, but I don't want to judge other people's paths.

Shawn Delyn [01:39:13] And you wouldn't want to force a law where it was prohibited to all people.

Michelle Stone [01:39:17] Oh, I'm probably going to get myself in so much trouble. I will just say I was thankful that the law gave me an option.

Shawn Delyn [01:39:22] Okay, okay. Okay. So the other question I had was around your epistemology, and this isn't me ever wanting. I believe people's beliefs are sacred. I really do. I actually don't do Mormon stories to try and take people's beliefs away from them. And I don't do it to challenge people's sacred beliefs. And I'm not trying to challenge yours. I am curious because, you know, this idea, and you and I talked about this on the phone, this idea that. That we can communicate with God or the divine through our feelings and our thoughts can be beautiful. And it can be very problematic because you've told us examples that were very beautiful for you in many ways, but also the thoughts to have the children that God wanted you to have. The children were horrific for you, making you think God was evil at some point. So there were points where those thoughts felt evil or bad to you in some way or made you wonder if God was evil. And then you go to the worst extreme. Lori Vallow, Chad Dabell, Jody Hildebrandt, Ruby Frankie, the Lafferty Brothers, Warren Jeffs. There's all sorts of atrocities done with sincere beliefs that God is telling the people to murder or to do polygamy or whatever. So one option that many people go to is just to say, wait a minute, maybe God isn't behind our thoughts and feelings. Maybe we just have thoughts and feelings and we attribute them to God, but maybe we should have what I call what some call epistemic humility, and just say, you know, right now I'm feeling like it's from God, but maybe it's not. And that kind of gets you out of this pickle of wondering whether God's evil, because instead of it being God evil, it's just I had the thought or the feeling or the desire to have more kids, and I attributed it to God. Did you ever go there and just say, maybe my thoughts and feelings aren't divine? They're just my thoughts and feelings. Did that ever occur to you as an option for you?

Michelle Stone [01:41:37] Well, sure. I mean, I think that navigating inspiration is something we all have to struggle to learn. So when I used to teach in the homeschooling communities, my topic was called celestial education. And I would teach about the different stages of learning as I believed them to be. But I used to talk about actually learning to receive inspiration and to interpret inspiration. And so I think that it is definitely, what should I say? I guess my instinct is to err on the side of faith, lean into faith, because I don't know how it serves me. My life has been outlined by doing what I felt God told me to do, specific direction to me. And so I don't know how it would contribute to my life to do that differently. To just assume it would feel actually quite arrogant to me to just think, oh, I'm just driving the ship, I'm in charge. You know, I of course wrestle with God and anyway, I don't know if that's answering your question, but I don't. I do think it's an important thing to learn to discern. The Book of Mormon's all about discernment, right? How we learn to hear the good voices. And while I believe in inspiration, I also believe in deception. And I think there are some tell tale signs of deception. For example, anything that sounds at all self aggrandizing, I think, oh, be careful with that, just put that file that away in a back drawer, don't think about that too much. And then anything that you are inspired to do at the expense of somebody else is not from the right source. I wish that everyone would just like accept that as a rule of thumb. I don't think I can be inspired to hurt somebody or take something from somebody. I can definitely be inspired of who I can serve, who I can help, who I can love. And that's where inspiration serves me well.

Shawn Delyn [01:43:40] And if somebody were to say to you, you are a victim of the Mormon Church because you were taught that your thoughts and feelings come from God, you were taught to have a lot of babies and those deaths happened because you were way too old to be having kids, but the church's culture and doctrine influenced you that direction. Plus to believe that your thoughts and feelings were from God, and in that sense you and your family suffered incredible tragedy because you were under the influence of doctrine and culture, that was just harmful. What would you say to that person?

Michelle Stone [01:44:21] So first of all, I would like to come and punch you in the Face for saying I'm way too old to be having kids, because my first little girl's death had nothing to do with my age. The second one. Actually, genetic disorders can show up at any age. Yes. Yes, it was a higher risk. I took that risk based on my inspiration. So, yes, you can say that I was a victim, but I would push back so hard because I love my children.

Michelle Stone [01:44:47] I have loved being a mom. My kids are amazing. And I would not. There's nothing I would rather have done with my life. And again, I am so thankful to have been. And also, how many people in my

Michelle Stone [01:45:05] church were not necessarily happy that I was having more children?

Michelle Stone [01:45:09] Including, you know, like, there were people

Michelle Stone [01:45:13] who were extremely supportive and people who were not. And so I don't think that this is a church culture to have 13 children in Mormonism at this point. This was me. This was my own choices. And I have dear friends who also have large families. So I guess we had our own little culture, and we came together because

Michelle Stone [01:45:30] we were this kind of mom that

Michelle Stone [01:45:33] homeschooled and had a lot of kids.

Michelle Stone [01:45:35] And so I. I actually am so

Michelle Stone [01:45:40] thankful to have had my family, and

Michelle Stone [01:45:43] I'm so thankful to have had my little girls. Like, I would not trade that for anything. I still feel them. You know, they're here. And I have grown so much. I hate ever making it sound like it's a good thing what happened, because it's not. But I can't be anything other than tremendously thankful.

Shawn Delyn [01:46:10] Yeah. Powerful. Beautiful.

Michelle Stone [01:46:13] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [01:46:14] Thank you for sharing. And that's this. The final. The passing of your final child was 20.

Michelle Stone [01:46:21] 20.

Michelle Stone [01:46:22] 2021.

Shawn Delyn [01:46:23] 2021. So I was in the middle of COVID Kind of.

Michelle Stone [01:46:26] Yeah, okay.

Michelle Stone [01:46:27] Okay.

Michelle Stone [01:46:28] Summer of 20, July of 2021.

Shawn Delyn [01:46:31] Okay. So I want to just talk really quickly or ask you to just talk really quick, very briefly. And I'll have Brooklyn take notes so that I can come back and read what you answered and catch up on what I missed. But, you know, prepperism is kind of a thing in Mormonism, kind of end times. You know, millennialism is kind of a thing. It's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. There's the whole visions of glory kind of stuff. Preparism, homeschooling is often kind of associated with that. And so I want to give you just a few minutes to just talk about your decision homeschool, how you view about the proximity of the end times, whether you were kind of. Whether you had visible to you this prepper, types of movements in Utah County Whether you had any associations with or visibility into people who love the Visions of Glory book and. Or we're stockpiling for the end times. I totally want to hear the answer to this question, but I got to run to the restroom. Okay.

Michelle Stone [01:47:41] Do you want to go there before.

Shawn Delyn [01:47:42] No, go ahead and jump into that.

Michelle Stone [01:47:44] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [01:47:45] Yeah. And then. And then I'll be right back.

Michelle Stone [01:47:47] Okay. So I guess, yeah, I guess there is an overlap with homeschooling and prepping. I didn't think of it that way. So I will say my mom took me to. What's his name, the guy that wrote Dreams and Visions of the Last Days, Roger K. Young. I think I went to some of those things, and I definitely was into preparedness. I was definitely into preparedness. I went through some experiences where I kind of learned. I felt like the Lord took me through some experiences where I learned all the things I was relying on other than God. And I came to a point of kind of feeling like, prepperism. I don't want to say I was like a prepper. I just believed in the year supply, and I had, like, a water purifier, you know, like, I guess moderate food storage type. Nothing more extreme than that. But I kind of started realizing, oh, I'm trusting in this maybe more than I'm trusting in God. And so I've really stepped back even from that. But I still do buy in bulk because it's really nice to just go down and bring up some more oats rather than having to go to the store all the time. So. Yeah. And I still have my buckets of wheat. So. Yeah, I guess I'm just normal Mormon prepper. I always wanted a cow and chickens. Never got one. Never got them. So is that Maven? You can fill in if. Is there anything he asked that I'm missing? Oh, the visions of glory. Yes.

Michelle Stone [01:49:18] Okay.

Michelle Stone [01:49:19] I do remember someone giving me Visions of Glory when it first came out, and I read it and was horrified. I thought it was the worst book for a variety of reasons. I mean, there were just weird scenes in it. I don't know if I recall them. But then also the whole idea that, like, Jesus comes and it goes through the church like this backs up just a little bit. Actually, my first thing that I really started struggling with in the church is the idea that, like, it's kind of, like, all about the prophet. Right. That the prophet can't lead us astray. And that's just not true through church history. And I kind of felt like wasn't necessarily spiritually Safe because we're putting our trust in the arm of flesh, and it sets us up to maybe not have our faith be as solid as it otherwise would be. So that was one thing that. That I struggled with was that idea and kind of got myself in trouble talking about it. There was nothing specific at the time that I disagreed with any of the prophets on. It just was the idea in general. And so the idea in visions of glory that, like, Jesus comes at general conference and you get a ticket based on your righteousness or. Anyway, there were several reasons that I really, really did not like that book at all and found it deeply troubling.

Considering Leaving the Church and LGBT Family Members

Shawn Delyn [01:50:38] And I'm back. Do you believe that the Second coming is nigh kind of thing?

Michelle Stone [01:50:43] Do you know?

Michelle Stone [01:50:43] I mean, I definitely have. I believe that the Book of Mormon is like, what I kind of have been shown or interpreted is a series of people coming into the presence of God. So it's like I'm much more concerned with my relationship with God and my experiences with God than I am of some of things. I think that trying to understand scripture or trying to predict things or trying to is. I've never seen anyone be accurate in any of it. Right. So I don't spend much time thinking about any of that. I know some people get really into it. It's definitely not my cup of tea.

Shawn Delyn [01:51:20] Okay, so you're not sitting around thinking that Jesus is coming any moment. We've got to create food storage and. And get weapons and bullets to prepare for the second coming.

Michelle Stone [01:51:30] That doesn't make sense to me. If Jesus is coming, why do we need weapons and food storage? I don't know that Jesus needs our stuff. I think there's probably wisdom and basic preparation because life is unstable. But at the same time, if you dig into preparation and you see how far it can go, how can you possibly prepare for every eventuality, you know? And I think of, like the flower LDS groups that just wasted so much money focusing on the end of time. So I think I was probably more like that when my oldest kids were little. They might be like, mom, you were totally a prepper, you know, but I haven't been for quite a while.

Shawn Delyn [01:52:07] Okay. Did you. Were you ever aware, I think Denver Snuffer kind of emerged around 20, I don't know, 10, 11, 12, 13 kind of thing. Were you ever aware of Denver Snuffer and his writings? This idea of the second comforter of having Jesus visit you personally, being able to see Jesus in the face? Were you ever kind of exposed to or influenced by Denver Snufferism or second comforter kind of teachings?

Michelle Stone [01:52:39] Yes, yes. So actually, when I was kind of going through that faith crisis of thinking that my cognitive dissonance of why isn't the church living up to my expectations?

Shawn Delyn [01:52:49] You know, this was in the mid-2000s.

Michelle Stone [01:52:51] Yeah, well, like 2005, 2007. Yeah, around that time. And I did feel just completely led by the Lord to Denver Snefer's first book, which I read, which kind of gave me permission to believe what I was believing. So I did read his first book, and I appreciated it. I thought. Yeah, I liked it.

Shawn Delyn [01:53:10] So is that something you ever. Are you comfortable even sharing whether that's something you tried to obtain the witness of the second comforter?

Michelle Stone [01:53:19] Oh, I think I thought about it for quite a while, but I. But I. That's another thing that I think can. Oh, I don't want to get myself in trouble because different people have different perceptions. My feeling is trying to quantify an outcome, a specific goal with the Lord or the Spirit is just not how I work. It doesn't feel great to me. You know, I'd rather just, like, let my experiences with the Lord come as they will come, rather than trying to say, I want that experience to happen.

Shawn Delyn [01:53:49] Okay.

Michelle Stone [01:53:49] If that makes sense.

Shawn Delyn [01:53:51] So seeking a witness was not something you've settled to feel like you want to do.

Michelle Stone [01:54:00] Okay.

Michelle Stone [01:54:01] How do I explain? I have experiences with the Lord. They don't necessarily feel fit into anybody else's categories of how they would define them. And I don't think that that, like, need to have some kind of experience necessarily leads to good places for a lot of people. Maybe it does.

Michelle Stone [01:54:18] I don't.

Michelle Stone [01:54:19] But it's not my cup of tea.

Shawn Delyn [01:54:20] Okay.

Michelle Stone [01:54:22] So.

Shawn Delyn [01:54:22] Okay, let's go back a tiny bit. You talked about 2015 as a moment. You were kind of thinking about leaving the church.

Michelle Stone [01:54:30] That was hard.

Shawn Delyn [01:54:31] Can you talk about what? Can you. Can you tell us about that? Was that the first time that you remember, like, really seriously considering leaving?

Michelle Stone [01:54:39] Yeah, maybe. I think so.

Michelle Stone [01:54:41] I think.

Michelle Stone [01:54:41] Well, and maybe it was. Was it before that? I can't remember. Maybe it was a little before that. I. I did have a time, and I need to remember. I. I need to do the math of how old my kids are. It was one of my oldest. We're all teenagers, so probably then, yes, in those years that I just felt like I. I experienced some ecclesiastical experience abuse. The November policy happened, which I found to be utterly devastating.

Shawn Delyn [01:55:04] And for those who don't know. Do you want to describe what that. What was Devastating about it to you?

Michelle Stone [01:55:08] Yeah. So I felt like I had been in communities of people trying to make the church work with their families that

Michelle Stone [01:55:16] had LGBT family members. And I didn't know I had gay

Michelle Stone [01:55:19] children yet, you know, and.

Michelle Stone [01:55:21] And then I also was in a lot of communities of people that were, you know, kind of going, like, just struggling with faith questions based on all of these problems. And I don't know why, but I just always have wanted to be an advocate for the church. I see a lot of good in the church, and I see a lot of good in people's lives when they're in the church. And I hate to see the church

Michelle Stone [01:55:40] lose the people I love that I think contribute to the church. So it was really hard to have something happen that. It just felt like a nuclear bomb. And anyone who was, like, sympathetic with the church and kind of active went completely like, no, the church is bad. Anyone who was already critical of the church went extremely critical of the church, you know, and it just. It just felt so sad to me.

Shawn Delyn [01:56:11] Are you saying like a self inflicted wound, that the church kind of gave itself a self inflicted wound by the November policy?

Michelle Stone [01:56:18] Yeah, I mean, yes, but also, it wasn't just the church that was hurt. So many people. Like, it's not like I'm more. I grieved for my church and it grieved for my friends and for myself. You know, I'm being selfish, but I didn't. Like, it's hard to make these decisions and it's hard to feel. I don't know, it just was hard. It was just a hard time for me. And then there were some other things that happened as well that made me feel like I needed to consider leaving.

Shawn Delyn [01:56:51] Did you consider yourself an LGBT ally in 2015 when that stuff happened? Did you have. You said you didn't know about your own kids yet, so did you have other friends or family members that helped you develop empathy? Or was this just so.

Michelle Stone [01:57:05] Again, I just had experiences with the Lord. So I. I was actually so conservative. I was a big supporter of Prop 8, which, you know, didn't know, didn't understand, but. But I had some experiences with God where that really changed my perspective and some really profound experiences. And I came, I had some. It's hard to talk about these things, but really I like, here am I. Send me is something that I think that many people said, including some of our loved brothers and sisters who have really hard challenges if you're a member of the church. And then I also. So I'll tell. Okay, I'LL just tell a story. I've told this before, but I had

Michelle Stone [01:57:53] gathered with a lot of friends and

Michelle Stone [01:57:54] we were talking about, you know, homeschool moms, we were talking about things. And I had been. I had had that experience and I had felt really just told by the Lord that. But it was my responsibility and our responsibility to love people, to actively, aggressively seek out people and love them. Do you know what I mean? And people who didn't fit easily into the church structure.

Michelle Stone [01:58:16] And so as I was thinking about that, oh, this shows how the space I was in, but I was like, oh, I totally love people. I want to love people. I wouldn't want them in my home. I wouldn't want them around my children. I wouldn't want that example around my children was my thought.

Michelle Stone [01:58:32] And it was one of just a few times that I felt it's hard. I felt like smacked upside the head by the Lord in that thought. And the words were, it is not their example of homosexuality that's damaging to your children. It's your example of lack of charity that's damaging to your children. And I learned that my children aren't going to learn to be gay by seeing gay people, but they're going to learn to be self righteous and judgmental and lack empathy from a mom who models that. And I. So I just kind of came into the community because I wanted to share those lessons and wanted to try to help in whatever way I could.

Shawn Delyn [01:59:16] Wow. So it wasn't necessarily personal experiences with immediate family or friends. It was instruction from the Lord that made you more lgbt, empathetic or supportive. Wow. Okay.

Michelle Stone [01:59:30] It was.

Shawn Delyn [01:59:31] So you regretted your Prop 8 support after that?

Michelle Stone [01:59:34] I did.

Shawn Delyn [01:59:35] Oh, wow.

Michelle Stone [01:59:36] Okay. I mean, I. I'm sympathetic with all of us. We're all growing and learning. Nobody, I think, knew and understood well enough, you know, but. But it's hard. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

Shawn Delyn [01:59:50] No, go ahead, keep going.

Michelle Stone [01:59:51] Oh, just. No, it's all. It's all right.

Shawn Delyn [01:59:53] Okay. Okay. So did that. You don't have to answer this again. I just. I'm curious. Like, did that make you think the church's policies on LGBT people were in error?

Michelle Stone [02:00:06] I. I really struggle with this one. And I can. Maybe I can put it in the context. There'll be some. This. This occurred to me a little while into my podcast, where I realized, because I have for a long time thought, we need better answers. I don't know what those answers are, but I feel like we need better answers. And, you know, so I don't have the solutions I I don't claim to, I, I, I just know that we need better answers that we have, I feel, you know, but I don't, I don't, man, I wouldn't want the job of church leaders, you know, that would be hard. But when I was studying polygamy in the scriptures and I realized that the Book of Mormon really has next to nothing to say about homosexuality. But my gosh, there's an abomination it talks about an awful lot.

Shawn Delyn [02:00:59] Tell us what that is.

Michelle Stone [02:01:01] The doctrine of many wives and concubines.

Michelle Stone [02:01:04] Right. And it's declared an abomination. And my feeling is that's part of, I guess why I feel like this matters is we really need better answers on these things. And so for me, the fact that the Book of Mormon has so much to say about polygamy is actually a confirmation of its usefulness in our church

Michelle Stone [02:01:23] and in my life. And, you know, because how can we

Michelle Stone [02:01:26] expect to get answers on these other things when we have our own pet abomination that we're carrying around in our back pocket?

Shawn Delyn [02:01:32] Wow.

Michelle Stone [02:01:33] I feel like we are, I mean, I don't want to be critical, you know, I know that we're all just trying, but it does feel to me like we're going to get that moat out while we've got a beam in our own eye. And I really feel like we desperately, desperately need answers to these other issues. And I guess it's just my little idea that maybe if we, I mean, the Book of Mormon tells us throughout

Michelle Stone [02:01:56] it that when we listen to it,

Michelle Stone [02:01:57] we will receive more.

Michelle Stone [02:01:59] Right.

Michelle Stone [02:01:59] We're told in 3 Nephi 26 that

Michelle Stone [02:02:01] we're under condemnation for not believing what's in the Book of Mormon. Same thing in Doctrine and Covenants 84.

Michelle Stone [02:02:05] And I just think that we can

Michelle Stone [02:02:08] believe the Book of Mormon and it has a lot to say about polygamy. And maybe if we heed that, maybe we'll get more answers on the other hard issues we're facing. I don't know. That's just my supposing.

Shawn Delyn [02:02:19] So Julie and others are saying, wait a minute, isn't it only just one short verse on polygamy in the Book of Mormon? Explain what you.

Michelle Stone [02:02:26] The Book of Mormon is by far the most anti polygamy book of scripture in the entire canon. So if anyone's curious, you can just look like search concubine in the Book of Mormon, there are four times that it uses the exact phrase many wives and concubines, and another time that it talks about wives and concubines. And you know what those phrases are. First of all, Jacob 1 and Jacob 2, where it is absolutely condemned. And then also King Noah, wicked King Noah did not do that. Which was right in the sight of God, for he had many wives and concubines. He and his priests. Right. And then evil King Riplakish in the Book of Ether. And then also, if you go throughout, like, I didn't come prepared to go through the scriptures, but these are the things that I learned that I wanted to share in my podcast. That first year, I do an episode, it's my second anniversary episode, called God is Not a Polygamist. And skip the first three minutes because I'm celebrating my birthday and it's embarrassing. But that's a good one to get the scripture overlay. Like, I tried to just put as many of the scriptures about polygamy in it as I could. So I should go to this part for a second. If, like, my change of heart on polygamy and how I learned this or did you have.

Shawn Delyn [02:03:31] Can we touch on. Can we come back to it? Yeah, okay. We will totally come to it.

Michelle Stone [02:03:35] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [02:03:37] So did you want to talk about the ecclesiastical abuse at all?

Michelle Stone [02:03:42] And maybe that's an unkind term. And that bishop afterward reached out to me and, like, really, again, healed me and, you know, was just kind.

Michelle Stone [02:03:51] I think that leaders are trying their best.

Shawn Delyn [02:03:54] Was it around the November 15 policy?

Michelle Stone [02:03:55] It was a little before that, but,

Shawn Delyn [02:03:58] I mean, was it about that?

Michelle Stone [02:03:59] No, no, no.

Shawn Delyn [02:03:59] Oh, it was about something else.

Michelle Stone [02:04:00] I've told that story on other podcasts. I gave a talk in church that I thought was. That felt very inspired. And it was about Lot's Wife, who. No, my talk was not about Lot's wife. I included a tiny little bit about Lot's wife in my healing process. I went and did a Sunstone presentation on Lot's Wife and shared these ideas. I gave a talk on Jesus has no Hands But Ours and how we, you know, we can help in our own little way lift the burden of Jesus. Any pain that we lessen is pain that Jesus doesn't have to suffer. Any pain that we inflict is pain that Jesus has to suffer. Right. We are all engaged in this work and then seeing the pain of. During this time, I was going and speaking to groups of parents with LGBT children, occasionally with some of the things that I had experienced. And the first time I was asked to speak to a group, I felt completely, completely in over my head because I didn't have gay children at that

Michelle Stone [02:04:55] point that you knew of. I didn't know I had gay children at that point. And I felt like.

Michelle Stone [02:05:00] Like, how can I tell them anything?

Michelle Stone [02:05:02] You know?

Michelle Stone [02:05:03] And I had an experience. We were studying Lot and I had an experience. And reinterpreted, like, throughout that week, that story flipped on its head, and Lot's wife became one of my profound scriptural heroines.

Michelle Stone [02:05:16] I think she is a rock star, and I think we need her story.

Michelle Stone [02:05:19] And I think we as mothers need her story. And I can give you the really fast Cliffs Notes, but at the end of my talk, I just shared a tiny little bit of. And the stake president's wife happened to be there and didn't like what I had said because it was just different. People sometimes just struggle to have something different. But it's awesome. If you look up the images, Pillar of Salt, it's actually like a profoundly complex. And it's like the biggest compliment God can give that someone could become a pillar of salt. And Jesus, we wouldn't even know that much about Lot's wife anymore than we do of all the. Any of the other Old Testament strange stories if Jesus hadn't brought her up and said, remember Lot's wife? Right? And if you read it, I'm a big believer in the. On the 12, the greater portion and the lesser portion of the scriptures. And if you read it and it says, in that day, who was ever on the housetop, let him not return in the house, remember Lot's wife. So it makes it sound like, remember she was bad, you know? But if you read it the other way and say, remember Lot's wife?

Michelle Stone [02:06:17] Whosoever shall.

Michelle Stone [02:06:18] Shall seek to save his life shall lose it. And whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. Preserve like salt. And when you realize Lot's wife had children and grandchildren in the city, right? If you read the story through those eyes Lot's wife had. Anyway, I like, I love her and kind of like I love Emma.

Michelle Stone [02:06:37] I don't like women being derailed and vilified if. When I see a different. Something different in them.

Shawn Delyn [02:06:46] So you were trying to redeem Lot's wife.

Michelle Stone [02:06:49] Well, I felt like God did show me that we as mothers, there's so much. Maybe it's. Maybe it's less. In the church at that time, there was a lot of suffering from mothers over their children leaving really, the empty chairs in heaven idea, you know? And I wanted people to understand what Lot's wife teaches us. Because a pillar of salt, salt is power to save, right? Salt is good, Jesus says, and salt was ounce for ounce as precious as

Michelle Stone [02:07:17] gold in the old world.

Michelle Stone [02:07:18] Right.

Michelle Stone [02:07:19] Salt is what saves, and a pillar is what sustains and supports and is a symbol of God, a pillar of fire, a pillar of a cloud, the pillars of the temple. A pillar of salt, to me means power to save.

Michelle Stone [02:07:32] And a mother who doesn't turn her back, but who keeps reaching out, who keeps loving, who keeps embracing and doesn't. Doesn't give up, has power to save.

Shawn Delyn [02:07:45] Were you? So you were basically saying Lot's wife was righteous?

Michelle Stone [02:07:49] Well, in my talk, I just really

Michelle Stone [02:07:52] quickly said, I gave my talk on the Savior, and then I just, for

Michelle Stone [02:07:55] the last few minutes, said, and I feel like I should share this.

Michelle Stone [02:07:59] I know it's unconventional.

Michelle Stone [02:08:00] Forgive me for giving a different interpretation, but it's been meaningful, Meaningful to me.

Michelle Stone [02:08:03] So in case it's helpful to anyone. And I gave a Super CliffsNotes version of Pillar of Salt and what Jesus

Shawn Delyn [02:08:08] said, but that she's not a negative cautionary tale. Right. You were redeeming her.

Michelle Stone [02:08:13] Yes. I think she's a story that we. I think we, as women, need her.

Shawn Delyn [02:08:17] Yeah. Okay.

Michelle Stone [02:08:19] And I do not think Jesus is the type to, like, remember that really, really evil woman who doesn't have a name. Right. Remember, like, why is it not for. Remember Cain, Remember King David, Remember. I mean, there are so many examples.

Michelle Stone [02:08:35] You have a mother who, like, the

Michelle Stone [02:08:38] angel told Lot to go and get his sons and daughters and daughters, like his sons in law. Right. They had children and grandchildren in the city. Nephi says, I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded. I know, right? Lot just came back and said they thought I was joking around. He didn't get the children. And so while they were tarrying, which

Michelle Stone [02:08:54] I think is Lot's wife's saying, go get my children. I'm not living without them. And the angels put their hands on them and transport them out of their city. What does a mother do if her baby is in a burning building? She goes back to get her baby. What do we expect Lot's wife to do?

Michelle Stone [02:09:10] Right.

Michelle Stone [02:09:10] And I'm not saying that these stories are literal or I never argue that. I just think they're profound lessons for us. And this is part of why I love the Scriptures, because I think they can unfold themselves to us in really meaning, meaningful ways. That's been my experience, and I have come to love that story.

Shawn Delyn [02:09:26] Okay, so you got called out for teaching an unconventional interpretation of a story.

Michelle Stone [02:09:30] Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [02:09:31] But then it's been healed since then. Okay.

Michelle Stone [02:09:33] Yes.

Shawn Delyn [02:09:34] Do you want to talk about your own kids? Coming out as LGBT and how that's impacted you. Nothing you don't want to share?

Michelle Stone [02:09:41] Yeah, no, I. I just.

Michelle Stone [02:09:42] I just will say that my kids are awesome and I adore them and I love them. That's. Yeah. I was kind of. Maybe I should. I was kind of happy that having my kids come out to me didn't change my perspectives. I'd already been taught what I needed to be taught by the Lord. I won't say I haven't been stretched. There have been a lot of things

Michelle Stone [02:10:02] that I've had to go back to

Michelle Stone [02:10:03] the Lord and say, what do you want me to do in this situation? You know, there are challenges and struggles

Michelle Stone [02:10:08] when you're navigating a lot of children

Michelle Stone [02:10:10] and you're, you know, and so I've

Michelle Stone [02:10:12] rely on lot on the Lord, and

Michelle Stone [02:10:13] I give my kids their space, and I think they are fantastic humans. I love them very, very much.

Shawn Delyn [02:10:20] Is it. Would it be putting words in your mouth to say that you don't believe that being lgbt, gay, lesbian, bisexual, or trans is, like, evil or an abomination?

Michelle Stone [02:10:32] Oh, being gay. Yeah.

Michelle Stone [02:10:35] Is evil.

Shawn Delyn [02:10:36] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [02:10:36] No, I mean, I think that. I mean, I guess we could go anywhere with that answer, but, no. I believe God loves God's children. God made each of us right. I think we all choose what we do with the lives that we're given. But I'm tickled with the lives my kids are leading.

Shawn Delyn [02:10:58] And I don't mean to push too hard, but, like, if you had a gay son who decided to marry a man or a lesbian daughter that decided to marry or partner with a woman in all the ways. In all the ways the affidavits, the polygamy affidavits alluded to. Right or wrong.

Michelle Stone [02:11:16] I gotta call you on that.

Michelle Stone [02:11:17] That's not accurate, but keep going.

Shawn Delyn [02:11:19] That was a joke. But would you be worried about the worthiness of your children if they had same sex partners?

Michelle Stone [02:11:25] So one thing that's really helped me

Michelle Stone [02:11:27] actually, is in my faith transition, is to let go of fear. I don't think fear is a great way to parent. And I recognize that as a young mom, while I was trying so hard to teach my children all the righteousness, that I was actually in kind of a fearful place. And I just know that God has

Michelle Stone [02:11:45] shown me in so many profound ways

Michelle Stone [02:11:47] that God has got my kids and they are in God's hands, living their life, going on their path, teaching us the things that we need to learn, hopefully learning what they need to learn

Michelle Stone [02:11:57] along the way at. And

Michelle Stone [02:12:00] I just love Watching their lives unfold.

Shawn Delyn [02:12:03] Beautiful. And you don't have to answer this, but do you consider yourself trans affirming?

Michelle Stone [02:12:08] Oh, that's probably a hard one. That's a hard one.

Michelle Stone [02:12:11] I don't want anyone to be hurt.

Michelle Stone [02:12:12] It just is hard when things overlap with other things. And it's hard to know anyway, who to support. I am trans affirming. I'm also woman affirming. So it's a little bit of a challenge for me as a. And I know that that's radioactive to say to people. I'm just being honest.

Shawn Delyn [02:12:30] So you're working through the tensions there?

Michelle Stone [02:12:32] Yeah, yeah. It's a struggle for me.

Shawn Delyn [02:12:34] I think we all are.

Michelle Stone [02:12:35] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [02:12:36] There are things that I'm very concerned about in our society.

Shawn Delyn [02:12:40] Sure. Okay.

Michelle Stone [02:12:43] But I have a sister, my oldest sister is like, amazing. And watching her scoop up and embrace,

Michelle Stone [02:12:50] like, I've been to her house. She gathers people and she'll often have multiple trans people there in her home

Michelle Stone [02:12:56] that, like, I just.

Michelle Stone [02:12:57] She is a model to me. I love her. So I want everybody to be loved, embraced included.

Shawn Delyn [02:13:03] Beautiful. Okay. So you mentioned a second faith crisis in 2020.

Michelle Stone [02:13:09] Ish.

Shawn Delyn [02:13:09] Around the passing of your children, but also around Covid. Like, I know that a lot of people were upset that the leaders of the Mormon Church at the time were supporting the vaccine, the COVID vaccine, or supporting masks. Were you in that category of people that were either anti Covid vax or anti mask?

Michelle Stone [02:13:35] Well, I will just say this. I felt like in 2020, all of the divisive forces of hell were unleashed on our society. That was how it felt to me, and I think desperately, desperately wished that the church would have been able to teach messages of unity, love, faith, acceptance, understanding, rather than sort of picking aside. That was hard for me to see. All of the division that there was. It was just really hard.

Shawn Delyn [02:14:03] And again, only if you're comfortable answering. Did you feel. Are you in the camp that felt like the COVID vaccine was bad or evil? Were you supportive of the vaccine? Do you have a position?

Michelle Stone [02:14:13] I guess I'm wondering your reason for asking. Because I will say that how I was traumatized in the hospital affected my view of all of that. Like, I viewed it all in a negative light because of what I experienced.

Michelle Stone [02:14:25] Yeah, it was. I spent. After being told I couldn't see my daughter, my nursing daughter, and then her last two days of life on the earth, I couldn't smile at her, I couldn't kiss her, I couldn't smell her, her big eyes looking for my smile. So she could return it. And the nurses just being so.

Shawn Delyn [02:14:52] Oh, they were justifying it by Covid, sort of spread kind of justification.

Michelle Stone [02:14:57] It was in April of 2020, and it threatened to. To kick her out of the hospital if I wouldn't let her be nasal swabbed, which shortened her life because her heart at that point, crying was not good. They forced me. Like, the things that happened felt to me unthinkable. And I felt like we as a society lost our humanity based on fear. That was my perception of it.

Shawn Delyn [02:15:21] And those. Those interventions were connected to Covid in some way. Okay. And that spoiled you, maybe to that whole.

Michelle Stone [02:15:30] It was like having her ripped out of my arms and taken and being told by myself, oh, go get in your van and drive 45 minutes. Go find your daughter. That had never been out of my arms. And I'm driving down the freeway and see a helicopter go from, like, surreal, surreal. So I was pretty messed up through that. And then to feel alienated from my community, I wasn't allowed to. I wasn't able to get food for my children. It wasn't because I was so traumatized by it. So it was. It was hard for me.

Shawn Delyn [02:15:58] And so then that made you feel what. Regarding the church leadership? Just that they weren't.

Michelle Stone [02:16:05] I. I mean, I.

Michelle Stone [02:16:06] My.

Michelle Stone [02:16:06] My attitude is very different now. I. At that time, I was angry. I was angry, and I was very vocal online. And I. You know, if I had had a platform at that time, I would have been excommunicated because I was really, really upset

Shawn Delyn [02:16:21] at the leaders of the church.

Michelle Stone [02:16:22] I was very critical.

Shawn Delyn [02:16:24] But now you don't. You don't feel the same way about those things.

Michelle Stone [02:16:27] I'm in a different place now where I just. I've healed and I can take it in stride. I still. I think I still have my same views on wishing that it had been. I think we could have really used a message of unity at that point. And, you know, but. But I'm not. I'm hesitant to say any of these things because I recognize this is not my stewardship and not my calling. And we can all have opinions. And I hope that I'm not getting

Michelle Stone [02:16:53] myself in trouble by just sharing my opinions. I'm not trying to be critical at that point.

Michelle Stone [02:16:58] I was extremely critical. But things happened after that. Again, that completely healed me, and that towards the church.

Shawn Delyn [02:17:06] Mm. Do you wanna talk about that?

Michelle Stone [02:17:08] Yeah. Yeah. So while I was pregnant with. I mean, these stories are so multifaceted, have so many connections. I just see the Lord's hand throughout them. Right. But I'll just tell this one portion of it. My stake president, my previous stake president, I had miraculously been brought into association

Michelle Stone [02:17:27] with him his very first. I ended up speaking at his very first state conference.

Michelle Stone [02:17:31] And we.

Michelle Stone [02:17:31] So we knew each other, right?

Michelle Stone [02:17:33] And then. And so he was patient with me while I was so angry during those years. And then when my. When my. See, that's another thing. Like, John, not many people in this day and age lose children, and not many people lose two in a row in two years. And I felt I was so angry in so many ways. I had some people say to me things like, you better be careful with

Michelle Stone [02:17:57] how vocal I was online.

Michelle Stone [02:17:58] You have a little girl in heaven that wants to see you again, and if you keep criticizing the church, you won't get to see her again. And that was the first time eternal families had been weaponized against me. And I realized, whoa, you know, like, I hadn't experienced that before. And then also, many, many different things

Michelle Stone [02:18:15] that happened, but also since the world

Michelle Stone [02:18:18] was shut down, I felt completely alone. Like, when I was pregnant with my 13th, I had my oldest son, home was suicidal, literally. Then my little 14 year old was like, making peanut butter sandwiches for her brothers every night. I was pretty much down for the count. And we didn't have any support. There was no one that said, how are you? What do you need? What can we do? I couldn't.

Shawn Delyn [02:18:42] Your ward wasn't coming through for me

Michelle Stone [02:18:43] because it was all shut down. And it just. I mean, my ward is wonderful. And when my first little girl died, you know, I don't want to be critical. It just my perception at that time felt, what have I given my life to? Why have I given my life to this church? What is it? You know? And so I was really struggling in that place for a while. I. I eventually had a woman that, I mean, at the same time, I was having beautiful, miraculous experiences and a woman that I, you know, that I saw one day and I kind of unleashed on her. Just, I was like, what is this? How? And so she and the compassionate service leader came over and cleaned the kitchen, which was exactly what we needed. So anyway, I was really struggling. And so when the stake presidency found out that I was pregnant with another little girl we were going to use, they all three came over together and were very kind and ministered, and I kind of let loose again. I was so angry and so upset by everything that was happening. And I just voiced all of it because my son's suicide attempt, like, we

Michelle Stone [02:19:54] no longer had young men's president.

Michelle Stone [02:19:55] So the bishop was supposed to be the. The young man had gone on high adventure and had left my son behind, and no one had reached out to him. And it was that night that I found him. So I just had a lot of reasons that I felt angry, you know, anyway, that stake presidency. Because I said also. Anyway, I'm making this story confusing and long, but my stake presidency came over three weeks in a row in jeans and T shirts. Those three men and swept my kitchen, fed my kids, like, took care of us. And something about that. It's kind of like Jean Valjean, like, you have sealed my heart for God. You know, I see. Saw goodness in the church. It opened my eyes to be able to see things in the church that I hadn't been seeing before that are absolutely there.

Shawn Delyn [02:20:55] That's the church at its best. When we're taking care of each other, loving each other and.

Michelle Stone [02:21:00] And, you know, I mean, there's more to it than that, but that really. And then we were assigned some. The. The ward missionary family. Our couple that was assigned to us have kind of adopted us, like grandparents. And they also like seeing people like this in my church. People that I want to be like, that I get to associate with and try to. Try to learn to emulate them. Like, there are incredible people. And then there's much more. There's much. There are many more reasons I stay as well. But that was the thing that really changed things for me, was just that pure ministering in the face. I mean, there were a lot of people that were really angry at me

Michelle Stone [02:21:39] because I was so vocal online.

Michelle Stone [02:21:41] And there were, you know, but those people really saved us.

Reasons for Staying in the Church

Shawn Delyn [02:21:47] As you mentioned that about the reasons you stay, there are people asking, give her a chance to really enumerate the main reasons why she does stay. We could ask that later, but. But may as well ask that now. Since you brought it up. What are the main. After all you've been through, you've shared. I mean, I think divine guidance is probably your number one answer. I'm gonna predict that that's it. But, like, do you. Are there any reasons that you've stayed with the church, aside from the service and the divine guidance that you would wanna share?

Michelle Stone [02:22:18] Yeah, well, yes. The core of it is that I feel like the Lord has told me to stay. So. Okay, I'll back up again to the first. First time that I felt. I just felt like this black pit. Like, I cannot stay in the church

Michelle Stone [02:22:30] after what I've experienced.

Michelle Stone [02:22:31] I didn't want my children to experience anything.

Michelle Stone [02:22:32] Like that. And I, you know, it was really

Michelle Stone [02:22:35] hard, and I. I was seeking the answer.

Michelle Stone [02:22:37] I just was praying, God, show me what's better. Show me where to go. Show me what you know. I already homeschooled. I didn't feel great about just home churching, you know, or not doing anything. And I was just desperately praying. And. And during that time, I had some really profound answers.

Michelle Stone [02:22:55] One of the things that happened, because I would always counsel with my children, you know, like, I had boys who were in their teens, maybe their mid teens. And so I remember talking to my second son and saying, I'm thinking of leaving the church.

Michelle Stone [02:23:08] What would you think about that? You know? And he. It was such a good learning experience for me because he just got a little choked up and said, mom, I know you know God, so I know you'll be fine. But I don't know God. All I have is the church. And that really made me realize the church is more than just what I want it to be. It's different things to different people. But what really happened, the main thing that made me stay at that point was I just had, again, it was divine guidance. But I felt this really profound answer from God to me. And people can, you know, this is my answer. But I was just told Jesus stayed. Jesus stayed in the church.

Michelle Stone [02:23:46] He.

Michelle Stone [02:23:47] Jesus was more aware of all of

Michelle Stone [02:23:49] the problems in the church of his day than I could possibly be of any problems of the church in my day.

Michelle Stone [02:23:53] And yet he stayed.

Michelle Stone [02:23:54] He continued to go to the feasts

Michelle Stone [02:23:56] in the temple, but he didn't submit.

Michelle Stone [02:23:59] I had been told in those interviews with the bishop that I couldn't make comments in class. I would never teach, I would never speak.

Shawn Delyn [02:24:06] You know, it's kind of being disfellowshipped, kind of.

Michelle Stone [02:24:08] Yeah, that was. Word didn't come up at all. Well, what it was, I could only say things that were directly out of the manual. And so I felt like that was part of the reason of, like, how do I stay like that? And with what I had experienced, it was not a good interaction with the bishop for me. But I was told Jesus stayed but didn't submit.

Michelle Stone [02:24:31] Jesus did what God wanted him to do, not what the leaders told him to do. And so. And that in my perception, you know,

Michelle Stone [02:24:40] that combination of staying but not submitting

Michelle Stone [02:24:44] led to the most important event of all time, the atonement. Right. So I felt told to stay and not submit. And it was just after having that

Michelle Stone [02:24:53] answer that we had a new stake president put in. And I ended up speaking at his very first stake conference when I'd been

Michelle Stone [02:24:58] told I'd never speak again, you know, and so I was told to stay

Michelle Stone [02:25:02] that time and felt. Became more aware of the needs, that it wasn't just about me.

Michelle Stone [02:25:08] It was about many more people than

Michelle Stone [02:25:09] me, you know, so that was my first time that I stayed and really felt committed. And it was painful. It was painful.

Michelle Stone [02:25:16] Like. Like, there are lots of things that I hear that I don't like. There are things that I, at that point that I was concerned that my

Michelle Stone [02:25:22] children were being taught that I didn't agree with, you know, but gradually, over time, I just.

Michelle Stone [02:25:27] It started to be where the good

Michelle Stone [02:25:29] would sink in and the hard would kind of. You know, I just was kind of blessed to let the hard go more than I had and embrace the good where I think before that I had been doing the opposite, you know, and then.

Michelle Stone [02:25:40] And then in 2020, when I felt so inspired to stay, there was something

Michelle Stone [02:25:47] else I was going to tell you.

Michelle Stone [02:25:48] I'll have to think of what it is about why I stay

Shawn Delyn [02:25:53] while you're thinking about it. Do you attend now? Every week.

Michelle Stone [02:25:57] Wow. Yeah, we. I love. I love being a member of the church. I really love the church. I, of course, mourn and grieve over people who, like. Like my twins, do not want to be members of the church.

Shawn Delyn [02:26:12] And I think they're lgbt. Okay.

Michelle Stone [02:26:15] And I think that, you know, it's a little hard for them sometimes that I still am, and we struggle with that, you know, but for me, I feel God in this church. Like it has been through this church. Not through this church, but in this church that I've come to know. God, I really love the Book of Mormon and being in class and being inspired with a comment that I can share.

Michelle Stone [02:26:37] Having my children have opportunities to teach

Michelle Stone [02:26:39] and sing, being able to serve, being able to all of those. Like,

Michelle Stone [02:26:47] this is something that I have shared before.

Michelle Stone [02:26:50] But during that, really, those really hard years that we were having, my marriage was also ending. We didn't. You know, marriage is hard anyway, but when you're losing. When you're going through things like that. And there were some additional pressures being put on our marriage as well. And I went through a time, okay, I'm just. Man, I'm being really vulnerable here, but I went through a time of intense, aggressive suicidality where it was while I was pregnant, actually, where it was in my marriage, if I would feel powerless, unseen, unappreciated and unloved, I would. I don't even know what it was. I would go to this place where I caught myself, like, accelerating into oncoming traffic. Or like one night after something happened, I ran out and, you know, I was at my 12 pass passenger van and drove up to the canyon just to try to. And I kept finding myself, like, accelerating toward the cliff, you know, So I pulled over in the middle of the night, feeling like a complete idiot because. And called the suicide hotline because I'm like, I don't know what's happening. This is, you know, the suicide hotline is for adolescents. And I'm a pregnant mother of 12. What is wrong with me? You know, that was the space that I was in. And I. And I went. Anyway. The next night, something happened again, and I knew I couldn't drive because, you know, so I ran over. It was in the middle of the winter. I was in the park in the middle of the night, feeling like there was no hope.

Michelle Stone [02:28:27] And I can't remember what I was talking about, why I went to this answer.

Michelle Stone [02:28:30] But I'll.

Michelle Stone [02:28:30] But I'll just continue with this story even if I can't remember why I started it.

Michelle Stone [02:28:34] So I. I ran. I was at the park feeling like everything has to end. I felt so powerless. There was nothing I could do to solve the problems I was having. And it was then that the best term I have is the wisdom of the mothers. I felt like this incredible wisdom and as big as eternity, this feminine wisdom. I kind of think it's like the polygamist women, you know, that learned these things from their experience. I actually. I know this may be goofy to some people, but I feel like I was carrying their feeling powerless and unloved and unseen and like they didn't have choices and they didn't matter, you know, that was affecting me so much. And I had. I had this wisdom come to me that just said that part of your marriage is not your whole marriage. That thing he did is not who he is. And it really healed me and allowed me to stay in my marriage, which I'm so thankful for, that we made it through that time. And I've had that same. That same impression with the church. Like, the church has some really, really difficult things, but that's not the whole church. And that's what I've come to see. I mean, I've been struggling in this space for what, 20, you know, but I've been really thankful over these past several years where I've come to see there is so much more to the church than the things that I struggle with. And I really, really appreciate the whole package And I can just have more charity. Just like I need to have more charity for those things about my husband that are really hard for me and really appreciate all the good things. I kind of try to do the same thing with the church.

Shawn Delyn [02:30:21] Beautiful. Beautiful. Okay, I'm going to just check in. Do you need some water or do you need a quick break? Are you doing okay? You okay? Okay.

Michelle Stone [02:30:30] My voice is holding out kind of.

Shawn Delyn [02:30:32] It's still rasping. You're amazing. So thanks for helping us understand why you've. How you've been able to stay in the church and in your marriage. When did you first start your YouTube channel?

Michelle Stone [02:30:49] So, okay, so this is. Can I build on that story? I just told it kind of as a good segue.

Michelle Stone [02:30:55] So after that experience I had with the wisdom of the mothers, I was healed from that.

Michelle Stone [02:31:01] I have not struggled with that.

Shawn Delyn [02:31:02] From your suicidal ideation.

Michelle Stone [02:31:04] I haven't struggled with that since.

Shawn Delyn [02:31:05] Oh, wow. Wow.

Michelle Stone [02:31:06] It was just completely healed.

Shawn Delyn [02:31:07] Dang.

Michelle Stone [02:31:08] And that next day, I was so grateful. So I was just praying, like, what can I do with. Like, what can I do to thank you? You know, and the women that had

Michelle Stone [02:31:22] given me that insight.

Michelle Stone [02:31:23] I know that sounds strange, but that's really what I felt like. I just was like, what can I do in return? And I was given the answer, tell other women. And I felt like I had studied.

Transition to Questioning Polygamy's Origins

Michelle Stone [02:31:33] So I guess I haven't talked about my transition in my beliefs on polygamy. Maybe I should go there first.

Shawn Delyn [02:31:38] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [02:31:38] So, yeah, so I was a big believer in polygamy. Big old believer in polygamy. I'm on the record teaching in celestial education that polygamy is the law of Zion in heaven. And so, yeah, it was. I told you this story before. It was my husband that came in and was like, I don't think polygamy was ever of God. So in order to save my going apostate husband from his false beliefs, I went to the scriptures to.

Shawn Delyn [02:32:01] Around what year was this?

Michelle Stone [02:32:03] I want to say 2013, 2014. Yeah. So I'd had all these faiths, transitions, but I still hadn't questioned polygamy.

Shawn Delyn [02:32:08] Right.

Michelle Stone [02:32:08] It sometimes comes piece by piece. I hadn't thought about it a lot, but I hadn't questioned it.

Shawn Delyn [02:32:13] So he concludes that Polygamy wasn't of God. 2013ish.

Michelle Stone [02:32:18] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Based on the Book of Mormon. And so I started studying it because of course it is.

Shawn Delyn [02:32:25] We know that that's so weird when the husband's against polygamy and the wife

Michelle Stone [02:32:28] is affirming it his great grandparents lived in the same little Mexican colony as my grandparents. So, you know, Chihuahua colonial Dublin, I think it was. And so anyway, I went to the scriptures, and I was shocked by how little I knew about what the scriptures have to say about marriage and polygamy. And I just. My mind was blown. And as I studied more and more and more, and that really was also another time of some degree of upheaval, because something that I had just assumed was true became antithetical to what the scriptures actually teach. Right. And so I ended up starting a Facebook group. Well, I tried to bring it up because you have to talk about this stuff when you know. So I tried to bring it up in several Facebook groups. And no, polygamy is verboten. You cannot talk. You may not discuss that here. And so I started my own Facebook group that I was like, okay, fine, I'll start my own and we'll talk about polygamy. And so. And because I had been in these really conservative homeschooling communities and had taught these things, I think that it actually was a blessing because a lot of people who were very pro polygamy and actual polygamists ended up joining that group, and then they tagged a bunch of, like, the polygamy scholars. So in my association there, I was able to engage with. With the very best arguments in defense of polygamy, and that was the best thing that could have happened to solidify my thinking that maybe I was wrong about polygamy. When I realized that's the best you've got, those are the arguments. It becomes pretty easy to be like, oh, my gosh, this was never good.

Shawn Delyn [02:34:10] Are you talking about church historians? Employees who are church historians?

Michelle Stone [02:34:14] I'm fundamentalist church apologist. Polygamy flds.

Michelle Stone [02:34:20] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [02:34:21] Or whatever. Whatever. Probably more AUB and different groups telling me that. Because before that, I had met people that were in the AUB and they had told me their theology went back when I was younger and selling bright music, and I was in their homes, and they told me their theology of one day the mother and the father will come back together. And I was like, oh, sounds logical. You know, it just worked with my perception at that time. So this was really a big. So anyway, I ended up being able to encounter all of the best arguments in favor of polygamy. And I found them to be severely lacking and sometimes quite atrocious. Like, if anyone has read Ogden Kraut, some of that is just.

Shawn Delyn [02:35:00] We interviewed Ann Wilde. My very first video interview on Mormon stories was Ann Wilde, his second or third wife.

Michelle Stone [02:35:06] His secretary. Yep.

Michelle Stone [02:35:07] And. And she.

Michelle Stone [02:35:08] I remember, I think in. In either your interview, like, she made some claims and threw some things out. When you go dig them up, you're like, oh, my gosh, that's what we've got. Right. And so I became very, very convinced that polygamy was not of God. And that was what my study was, was that polygamy was not of God. Scripturally, absolutely bulletproof. I felt like that is a lockdown case.

Shawn Delyn [02:35:31] Except for DNC132.

Michelle Stone [02:35:33] Well, I did. I learned just enough about DNC132. Like when I remember when I learned where it came from and when it was added and was like, oh, my word. Like, are you kidding me?

Shawn Delyn [02:35:46] You know, when you learned it was added much later.

Michelle Stone [02:35:49] Yes. That it wasn't.

Shawn Delyn [02:35:50] It made you question its validity.

Michelle Stone [02:35:52] Oh, yeah. Well, I just. Whoever it came from, it wasn't from God. Especially reading, because I was engaging with these people. And so I had. Sometimes people would challenge me. It was always polygamous. Men as well. It was like very. Some women joined, but usually men. And it was funny. I learned that one of their biggest insults for women is I would never want you as a wife. I got that often. Which was like, what a strange insult.

Michelle Stone [02:36:13] You know, I guess that's the worst

Michelle Stone [02:36:15] insult in a polygamist mindset, that you're not wife material. I'm like, I got a husband. I'm good, thanks.

Michelle Stone [02:36:21] But

Michelle Stone [02:36:24] it was one of. I was challenged several times, but one time explicitly, someone said, michelle, will you fast forward and pray about 132. And I was like, okay, yes, I will, I will. And so I did. And I knelt down and prayed after fasting. And I had this impression come to mind that was like, read verse by verse, asking which portions are of me. And that was the first time I had ever considered that it might. Some of it be from God and some of it not be from God.

Shawn Delyn [02:36:56] D&C 132, specifically.

Michelle Stone [02:36:59] Yep. And so I started to go through that exercise. And then it was also when I read Jacob, the book of Jacob next to D&C132, it could not be more apparent that these are not the same God.

Shawn Delyn [02:37:13] Because Jacob, tell our non Mormons what Jacob says. Paraphrase.

Michelle Stone [02:37:17] Yeah. So Jacob. Jacob too is the famous sermon there's more of. You have to read 1 and 3 as well to get the full impact. But Jacob 2 starts out the first half all about pride, which is actually incredibly apt because polygamy is the most prideful Doctrine there is. I'm convinced of it. So the first half is about pride and then the second half is an absolute, inescapable, unavoidable prohibition and condemnation of polygamy. They were condemned for just desiring many wives and concubines. They misrepresented. Read the scriptures of old like David and Solomon and they. Those were the things. Anyway, we can go into it. People like to claim that 2:30 is a loophole. And I so much work has been done to show that that does not work at all. In fact, in the church manuals they'll often change the words they'll do but or nevertheless in an ellipsis when it says for like it's building on what came before. And then they always ignore verses 31 through 35, maybe going in a little, but it's. It says for if I want to raise up seed, I will command my people as God is doing here. And God says in 1st Nephi 7:1 that God wants to raise up seed through Lehi and his sons. So they go back and get the family of Ishmael. And you can do the math. There's one each. Right. God created Adam and Eve to multiply and replenish the earth. Noah and the three sons. And there were eight souls on the ark. Monogamy.

Shawn Delyn [02:38:40] Right.

Michelle Stone [02:38:40] It's even good enough for the God.

Shawn Delyn [02:38:40] So lots of opportunities to raise up a seed in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon. God's not implementing polygamy to raise up a righteous seed.

Michelle Stone [02:38:50] Every time God wants to establish a people, God does it in monogamy without exception, as far as we know. Well, if we're going to look at the scriptures.

Shawn Delyn [02:38:58] Yeah, right.

Michelle Stone [02:38:59] If we're going to look at the scriptures and then the first polygamist is Lamech, who's this descendant of Cain who becomes the next Master Mahan the like.

Michelle Stone [02:39:07] The what is it?

Michelle Stone [02:39:08] The Son of Perdition. Right, like. And that's the first polygamy. The first time polygamy is on the earth. This is where in both the Bible and in the Pearl of Great Price. If you look up. So look up Lamech. And that's the first indication we get of polygamy anywhere in scripture. And then 132 claims that God commanded Abraham. No, God did not command Abraham. Go to the the Bible. God has never commanded polygamy.

Shawn Delyn [02:39:33] So in the Holy Bible, the Old Testament, Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon. God's not telling those prophets to take plural wives as far as you read.

Michelle Stone [02:39:44] Yeah, well, I mean I would argue it with Anybody.

Shawn Delyn [02:39:46] And then you have.

Michelle Stone [02:39:49] And then also like, yes, as far as I read.

Michelle Stone [02:39:52] But I read it.

Michelle Stone [02:39:53] Right.

Michelle Stone [02:39:54] And then also the.

Michelle Stone [02:39:56] Sorry, my voice is starting to get a little raspy, so just ignore.

Shawn Delyn [02:39:59] But do you need water?

Michelle Stone [02:40:00] Yeah. Also the claim that. What was the other claim? I was going to say. Oh, I'll have to get back to it. Anyway, the question. I'll get back to it. But the question was, what is Jacob to. It is an absolute unequivocal prohibition of polygamy.

Shawn Delyn [02:40:16] It calls that actually prohibit it. Just say those words really quick.

Michelle Stone [02:40:20] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [02:40:21] It's. I the Lord view.

Michelle Stone [02:40:23] Let me. Let me just get there really fast.

Shawn Delyn [02:40:25] I'm sorry, I brought my.

Michelle Stone [02:40:26] Well, I should have the whole thing memorized and I probably do.

Shawn Delyn [02:40:29] No, I put you on the spot. Whenever someone puts me on the spot, the words immediately escape my brain. I'm sure you've. I've heard you cite this scripture.

Michelle Stone [02:40:36] I cite it all the time. I think the thing is, I don't want to just read that one verse.

Michelle Stone [02:40:39] I.

Michelle Stone [02:40:39] You know, I won't do too much. But it's important to see that it's.

Michelle Stone [02:40:44] They many.

Michelle Stone [02:40:44] They did indeed have many wives and concubines, which was abominable unto me. Is one thing that he says about David having many wives and concubines is abominable. The Doctrine and Covenants tries to twist that. To say only in the matter of Uriah.

Shawn Delyn [02:40:57] What?

Michelle Stone [02:40:57] Like that is not what the Book of Mormon.

Shawn Delyn [02:40:59] It means he killed a husband.

Michelle Stone [02:41:01] Right. And why is it not in the matter of Bathsheba? Like it's ridiculous that that's the only way that he sinned. And then it goes on. Let's see. The word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. So in chapter. Chapter one, it's called a greater wickedness. And then.

Michelle Stone [02:41:16] Or.

Michelle Stone [02:41:16] And then it's called grosser crimes. For they understand not the scriptures. For they seek to excuse themselves and committing whoredoms because of the things which were written concerning David and Solomon his son. So pay attention that it says the things which were written. Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines. Which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

Michelle Stone [02:41:36] Wherefore?

Michelle Stone [02:41:37] And then it goes down. And then I could. I mean, it keeps going.

Shawn Delyn [02:41:39] So the Book of Mormon is saying David and Solomon's polygamy and concubinary is an abomination.

Michelle Stone [02:41:46] Is an abomination, full stop.

Shawn Delyn [02:41:47] Like it's not making conditions for that.

Michelle Stone [02:41:50] Right? And if you read this, it actually makes it Quite clear that that was a big part of what Lehi was preaching against in Jerusalem. And part of why he had to leave is he was preaching against this perversion of God's establishment of marriage. Right. Here you have God wanting to raise up a righteous seed, and this is what the people do with it. And so.

Michelle Stone [02:42:08] And then.

Michelle Stone [02:42:08] And so when it says wherefore? And then it's interesting too. I just, I love the scriptures. This is my favorite part. But when it says, wherefore thus this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord, or of hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes. And it goes on to curse the land and tell them that they will be destroyed. And isn't it fascinating that Wilford Woodruff claim to have a revelation from God that said, if you don't knock it off, this is what's going to happen. The church will be utterly destroyed. Right. I see that as a fulfillment of what the Book of Mormon, of what the Book of Mormon says certainly wasn't

Shawn Delyn [02:42:42] good for the church after a while.

Michelle Stone [02:42:44] Ever. Ever. It was never good for the church.

Shawn Delyn [02:42:47] Yeah, probably.

Michelle Stone [02:42:47] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [02:42:48] And then it says, for if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts. And it says, for if I will. Meaning building on what I just said. Right. Not in opposition to it, raise up seed unto me. And it just says in verse 25, what it means to raise up seed is raise up a covenant people, which is what God said in 1st Nephi 7 he's doing with Lehi and his descendants. Right. If I will raise up seed to me, I will command my people. This entire chapter is God commanding his people. Don't do this thing. Right. And it says otherwise. If I don't command them, they shall hearken unto these things, the things written about David and Solomon.

Michelle Stone [02:43:22] Right.

Michelle Stone [02:43:22] And if you look at it grammatically or in any other way, that's what it says. And then what's important is to go on to the next verse. For behold, I, the Lord have seen the sorrow and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, and because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands. And the entire rest of the chapter gives the reason that God always condemns and forbids it. So if we want to say that God sometimes commands polygamy, then we're saying then just God at sometimes doesn't care about women.

Shawn Delyn [02:43:54] Why do you think so? Like Gerardo's interpretation of that verse? Because he would believe Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, not God. Gerardo wrote it's Obvious that Joseph was struggling with polygamy at a very early age. I'm guessing you wouldn't have that interpretation correct?

Michelle Stone [02:44:14] Not at all. Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [02:44:15] So why was God worrying about polygamy during the time of Jacob in the Book of Mormon, do you think?

Michelle Stone [02:44:22] Well, it seems to me and again, I hold my beliefs loosely. I'm never gonna get into an argument with someone over whether this is a historical document or where it came from. I think I've also never seen it explained well where we got it. So I tend to really love the Book of Mormon unapologetically and I'm okay with that even if I don't understand it but about it. Right. But I do think that polygamy is something according to this chapter that was happening in the old world, Lehi was commanded. Verse 3 tells us that Lehi was commanded that they should not practice polygamy. And so what was her. So I actually.

Examining Scripture and Early Polygamy Revelations

Shawn Delyn [02:44:57] So he's basically wondering why in Book of Mormon times in the new world, God wanted this in the scriptures. You know what I mean?

Michelle Stone [02:45:05] Well, well I mean if I'm gonna put on my faithful hat. Faithful hat, yeah. The way that I see it, I mean look what happened in the church. And we believe this is a book that was brought forward to our church and it's telling us what we need to know. It's a book written for us. Right. And so I actually find it to be profoundly. It's kind of prophetic, miraculous and prophetic that it is telling us. I wouldn't and them.

Shawn Delyn [02:45:30] And them.

Michelle Stone [02:45:30] Right. No, I'm saying that yeah, like I wouldn't God to give us a book of scripture that condemns those other people over there.

Shawn Delyn [02:45:37] Right, right.

Michelle Stone [02:45:38] You know, and so I actually think it gives us an opportunity to continue to be willing to believe it because like I said, it also tells us like warns us to not treat it lightly. And one of the things we can talk about again, look up how many times it says many wives and concubines. And what's fascinating in the Book of Mormon, in the Book of Mormon, uh huh. It uses that term four times at least to condemn it. And then all of a sudden in 132 we get the doctrine of many wives and concubines commanded by God in complete opposition to the Book of Mormon. So I would say if Joseph was struggling with ideas of polygamy, he could have just left it out or he could have put it in somehow. And like 132 did. Like hey, you know, David and Solomon had some pretty Cool ideas. Right. And he could also have when he translated the Bible. So after Joseph died, the Mormons who came to Utah really wanted to get the Bible from Emma. The Bible retranslation and the stories about that are pretty cool. Her faith in she, she just felt very strongly that if she kept that safe, they would be protected. And the, they were trying to get it from her and if they couldn't get it, they wanted to destroy it. So they tried to burn her house down many times. According to the history, she would find the house have set on fire, but it wouldn't catch. And so she preserved the Bible. And I think that's amazing because now we can see that in Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible, which he did much later than the Book of Mormon, he actually increases the condemnations against David. There's no wiggle room for polygamy built in. And those, those things I think. And then if we look at doctrine and covenants, we have section 42, which was given as the law unto the church. This was the law to the church. And verse 22 says, Thou shalt cleave unto thy wife and none else. Right. I think right before that it says thou shalt not lie. You know, you can't lie for the Lord, you can't lie for polygamy. Section 49 has another strong prohibition of polygamy that if I weren't fuzzy brained I could quote for you. But we can look it up.

Shawn Delyn [02:47:34] So don't forget DNC101835. Yeah, you wanna.

Michelle Stone [02:47:39] Yeah. The original statement on marriage that Joseph added that was.

Shawn Delyn [02:47:43] It was canonized in the original Doctrine and Covenants.

Michelle Stone [02:47:46] It was, it was at accepted by unanimous universal common consent. Every single organization in the church voted on it. And it was another extreme prohibition against polygamy. It said, inasmuch as this church has been reproved with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that one man but should have one wife and one woman but one husband, except in case of death, where either is at liberty to marry again. Can't get much more clear than that. And those are the consistent scripts that we have coming throughout Joseph's lifetime. And canonized.

Shawn Delyn [02:48:17] And that lasted until what, 1876.

Michelle Stone [02:48:19] Yes.

Shawn Delyn [02:48:19] In the Doctrine and Covenants, the explicit prohibition by the Doctrine and Covenants of polygamy.

Michelle Stone [02:48:25] Yeah. So what became Section 132 did not show up at all until 1852, August of 1852, where Brigham Young.

Shawn Delyn [02:48:33] Not in Scripture yet.

Michelle Stone [02:48:34] No. Where he magically pulled it out of his desk. Brian Hales makes fun of me when I magically. Because he thinks I'm being literal. I'm just saying, poof.

Shawn Delyn [02:48:41] Look.

Michelle Stone [02:48:41] Look what I've had locked in my desk. And none of you knew it. He says that. He says nobody knew it was there. I've had this in my desk for many years. Well, where did it come from? Did it cross the plains in his desk? Right. And so he pulls this out and it's so problematic. We can dive into that another time. Like, hugely problematic. That's the first time it shows up. And then it's printed in the Deseret News. So they are living in complete opposition to their canonized scriptures because 132 is not in the scriptures, but 101 is. Well, it's 109 at that point, because in the 1844 version, it was 109. And that lasts almost throughout the entire period of polygamy. Right. Only 14 years before polygamy ends is 132 added. And now for the rest of the time, we're living in opposition to our scriptures again because we still have 132 in. Where polygamy has been officially banned since 1890. So it's. It's just an interesting. It's an interesting history that people should be aware of.

Shawn Delyn [02:49:35] Yeah. So it's kind of like the Book of Mormon and most of the Doctrine and Covenants and the pull of Great Price all converted you to the belief that D&C.132 was not of God.

Michelle Stone [02:49:52] Absolutely.

Michelle Stone [02:49:53] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [02:49:54] Except the portions.

Michelle Stone [02:49:55] Except.

Shawn Delyn [02:49:56] Which is valid because they are contradictory.

Michelle Stone [02:49:58] They are.

Michelle Stone [02:49:58] They are. And God is in one of them. The God I know is in the Book of Mormon and is in the Doctrine and Covenants is not in doctrine and covenants. 132. 63. God does not see women as possessions to be taken and given, and God does not. This is not of God. Right. And so there was something else I was going to say. I'll have to. I'll have to.

Shawn Delyn [02:50:21] Dan Vogel in the chat, and he wants to. I think he and I both would have some. Want to have a conversation about the original revelation that Joseph Smith is reported to have received with Hyrum. And that was based on Clayton's journal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That there was. There were many reports of that revelation being shown around Nauvoo.

Michelle Stone [02:50:47] Yes. They'd all come out later. We would be happy to see.

Shawn Delyn [02:50:50] Brigham wasn't necessarily the first time.

Michelle Stone [02:50:53] No, those reports all came later.

Shawn Delyn [02:50:55] Right, right.

Michelle Stone [02:50:56] I mean, those reports of people having Seen it came starting in 1869. So they claim. They backtrack and claim.

Shawn Delyn [02:51:04] Well, we'll get into this. But other than the Nauvoo Council in 1843, people saying that they were told, and there are other reports of people. So we have contemporaneous reports in Nauvoo.

Michelle Stone [02:51:17] The Navu Expositor.

Shawn Delyn [02:51:19] Yeah, yeah. And we'll get. We'll get to all that. Anyway, I think Dan's just wanting to make sure people don't think that Brigham Young coming up with the document in 1850, whatever, is, like, truly the beginning of. Of the idea of a revelation.

Michelle Stone [02:51:33] No.

Michelle Stone [02:51:33] Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [02:51:33] Okay.

Michelle Stone [02:51:34] There were.

Shawn Delyn [02:51:34] There were.

Michelle Stone [02:51:35] Yes. We could get into that.

Shawn Delyn [02:51:36] We'll get into that.

Michelle Stone [02:51:37] But. But132, in its current form first was first presented to the church, first read to the church, first seen, and then we can get. One thing I did want to say is that the portions of it that actually are about eternal marriage. And this goes into my model of

Shawn Delyn [02:51:52] the earlier part of DC137.

Michelle Stone [02:51:54] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [02:51:54] Like the teens.

Shawn Delyn [02:51:55] So you're praying. Let's go back to that. You're praying verse by verse in the Doctrine and Covenants.

Michelle Stone [02:52:00] Yeah, and I didn't really make it through much. It was just the idea that some of it could be from God and some of it could not. So, 1. Can I clarify something really fast? Because I do talk about my experiences with God, but I don't base my opinions on things on what God tells me, if that makes sense. I really like the scripture by learning and also by faith. And I feel like, for me, the Spirit can tell me, like, what's the best language. I feel sometimes inspired. Go look at that or go read that. You know, or sometimes I can feel a confirmation of an idea. But I really like critical thinking, and I really like evidence. So I just wanted to clarify, because some people say, oh, so God told you Joseph wasn't a polygamist. And I. It's so discouraging and demoralizing and inaccurate.

Shawn Delyn [02:52:48] So I don't want to. I don't want to push that off. This is the type of epistemological conversation I might save till later. But since you brought it up, I'm going to just. We'll hit it now.

Michelle Stone [02:52:58] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [02:52:59] So what I hear you saying is that you value evidence.

Michelle Stone [02:53:02] I do.

Shawn Delyn [02:53:02] And you value truth. And it would not be fair to just say she just felt that it was true and that's what she bases her position on.

Michelle Stone [02:53:12] Yes. Yes.

Shawn Delyn [02:53:13] Because anyone who you. I will never, ever, ever. I'm just Saying it now. I will never have the command of Mormon history that you do.

Michelle Stone [02:53:20] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [02:53:22] So what I'm trying to say is, you know a lot, and you've researched a lot, and you clearly care about evidence and facts and truth. That's very clear to me. And I think that's what you're also trying to say. It's not just warm fuzzies, you know, that are your foundations.

Michelle Stone [02:53:41] Yes. Thank you for stating that. Well. And understanding and believing that, because it's really frustrating to me with how much I work to. Really, honestly, I love being proven wrong. I have a big track record of very visibly changing. I was, you know, I'm on record very often speaking when I was teaching Celestial education on believing polygamy was of God and the law of Zion, and I changed that.

Shawn Delyn [02:54:07] Did you ever feel like God told you polygamy was right?

Michelle Stone [02:54:10] No. No. It was just my.

Shawn Delyn [02:54:11] So have you ever been reversed on something you felt God had told you was right? You have.

Michelle Stone [02:54:17] Well, I mean. Or greater understanding coming. Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [02:54:20] Okay.

Michelle Stone [02:54:21] Homosexuality, my babies. Like. Like, I don't know that it's been. Like, that was wrong, but it might be that was partial or you misunderstood.

Shawn Delyn [02:54:30] Misunderstood. Okay. So you haven't shut the door of understanding or being open about any of this stuff.

Michelle Stone [02:54:37] No, not. I really. I know that people don't believe this about me, but general. Like, when I would listen to the atheist debates, I loved it when a question was asked that bothered me that I couldn't answer. I loved the exercise of talking to my kids about it and, like, really pondering and praying about it and then having whatever epiphany I might have. You know, I like being challenged in my views. I know people might not believe that, but I really, genuinely do. And when I was very slow when I started my podcast, I did not want to get into the question of Joseph Smith for a variety of reasons. The main one of which is that I think the God question is so much more important. And I felt like the Joseph Smith question always, like, eats the God. It's like, you can't even talk about God anymore because it's just about Joseph Smith. And then also I knew what I was stepping in. If I were to come out and say Joseph wasn't a polygamist, I knew that that would be. I knew I actually, by nature am really high in agreeableness. I'm a people.

Michelle Stone [02:55:35] Please.

Michelle Stone [02:55:36] I don't like having everyone hate me. So it really was. It's been evidence that has convinced me. And if the second we find a child or some other really solid evidence. I will definitely have to grapple with that.

Shawn Delyn [02:55:50] Let me just very quickly, we've gotten so many super chats. Life Take Two says, hey, Life Take two. Check out her channel. She says my cheating reading X was a fierce monogamy affirmer. That's.

Michelle Stone [02:56:03] Oh no, that's funny.

Shawn Delyn [02:56:04] That's ironic and tragic.

Michelle Stone [02:56:05] I'm so sorry.

Shawn Delyn [02:56:07] Yeah, thanks for sharing. Boyd K. Boyd X. Thanks for your support. I'll just go through these super quickly. EJS says, what about the October 5, 1843 journal entry? I think she's talking about William Clayton there.

Michelle Stone [02:56:24] She's talking about the, the Willard Richards Joseph Smith journal. And we can go to that.

Shawn Delyn [02:56:29] What she trying to say there.

Michelle Stone [02:56:31] I think what she's saying is there is one thing that has not been brought up in this study until the monogamy affirmer movement is the huge record of altered records. The huge pile of altered changed records. So we have many cases of Brigham Young writing in his history that they were engaged in revising the history of the church after Joseph. We have Howard Corey, I want to say is his name, who was in Nauvoo after Joseph's death, but then left and joined the rlds. And he said that he was very troubled by watching them alter all of the records to fit what he called the new order of things. And then if we go in, we can see now that we have the Joseph Smith.

Shawn Delyn [02:57:09] We know that Brigham Young rewrote Lucy Mack Smith's biography and tried to have it burned.

Michelle Stone [02:57:15] And many, many. So if I showed you like I could pull up right now five different documents right now that Joseph or Hyrum, well, even more than that, preached or published or did something with like, like vehemently anti polygamists that were changed to give it a little loophole, to give it a little out to that were changed by Brigham Young and the later polygamists. And that hasn't been part of this conversation. Those are some of the sources we're trying to bring forward.

Shawn Delyn [02:57:40] Were you. And this is an example. Gotcha. But it just comes to my mind. Were you aware that Joseph Smith changed his own revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants from the earlier versions? You know, he would flip meanings, he would delete stuff. He would add stuff to revelations that were supposed to have been received years before. I didn't really understand the depth of that until we did the LDS discussions episode about that. Did you know that Joseph Smith, and he's changed the Book of Mormon, he made several changes to the Book Of Mormon. Not a gotcha. But I'm curious if you are aware of. I am aware the changing maybe starts with Joseph.

Michelle Stone [02:58:16] Yes. Well, no, no, no. I would disagree with that because Joseph wasn't changing somebody else's history to try to frame them as doing or saying the opposite of what they said. Joseph was changing his own history. And while that means in the first vision too. Right. Well, I know the different first vision accounts. I don't want this to sound at all like a cop out. It's not. But I have my hands full with polygamy. I am aware of the other issues. I can't dive into everything the same way. And I guess like I'm just kind of about where God wants me, what God tells me to do, you know,

Shawn Delyn [02:58:52] you don't feel called to study that other stuff deeply right now?

Michelle Stone [02:58:56] Yes, I can't. Yeah. I'm doing all I can on this topic and I feel like. Well, I can tell you why I came to the. I feel like I'm not finishing things, not finishing stories.

Shawn Delyn [02:59:06] My fault. I'm sure it's my fault.

Michelle Stone [02:59:07] Oh, it's okay.

Michelle Stone [02:59:08] I can't even remember what I was going to say. I should read the Jacob. I mean the October 5, 1843 journal entry because it's fascinating. Yeah, we could save that for another conversation. But Joseph said walked up and down the street with scribe preaching and teaching against polygamy.

Michelle Stone [02:59:25] Against.

Michelle Stone [02:59:25] I can't remember if it says it. Polygamy saying that anyone who is practicing or teaching polygamy.

Michelle Stone [02:59:31] I can't.

Michelle Stone [02:59:32] My gosh. But it just says, Joseph forbids it. On this law, no man shall have but one wife. That was the original journal. Then we can see. So how they created the histories of the church was they would take all of these sources that they would get and put them into a draft history. And it was where they would leave spaces, make changes, alterations. Right. And then they came up with the final history. And that's a really fun one to look at. I can post it below for anyone who wants to see it. I'm not able to share documents in this conversation. It's good to see the documents, but you can see the original journal entry, the draft history, where it is written with lines in between, left to change it. And then you can see it's crossed out. And in a new pen it writes in and says, for the only but one on earth at the time unto who these keys are forgiven. And I have constantly said, no man shall command shall have but one life, unless I command otherwise. Or Unless I, Joseph, give permission otherwise. Right. You can see to be revised written over in the corner. Then you can see the revision, and then you see the final history, which is what we all grew up with. Right. It's not until we have the Joseph Smith papers that we can see these things.

Shawn Delyn [03:00:38] Yeah, I was this morning, I get 3am I was trying to prepare for this episode and I was learning. I was trying to learn more about the. The Austin Cowles and I. And so I learned that Austin, you know, it's alleged that Austin Cowell's daughter was sealed to Joseph Smith, you know, in 1843, as a precursor to him stepping down from the Nauvoo Council.

Michelle Stone [03:01:07] Oh, see, those are all assumptions that we can argue.

Shawn Delyn [03:01:10] But yes, I'm telling you what I read.

Michelle Stone [03:01:12] Right, right, right.

Shawn Delyn [03:01:12] So I'm reading that and then. And then I'm reading. Okay, so that's one. So Austin Cowell's daughter was sealed to Joseph Smith. So then I go to look at some of the records that. That seem to be suggesting that. And it literally had her, as I read it. And this is something that came from, I think, Gary Bergera, where somewhere it was annotated that she was sealed to her husband. And then that was like crossed out. And I think it was Joseph F. Smith that wrote in sealed to Joseph Smith. I'm like, what the fetch? Like, come on. I thought I was going to something really solid. And I'm like, why is Joseph F. Smith crossing out a record and then putting in she was sealed to Joseph Smith. Now, that doesn't mean she wasn't sealed to Joseph Smith.

Michelle Stone [03:01:59] But.

Shawn Delyn [03:01:59] But it is like, weird.

Michelle Stone [03:02:01] It is weird.

Shawn Delyn [03:02:01] It's like deflating. I'm like, I got. Oh, crap.

Michelle Stone [03:02:04] Yes.

Shawn Delyn [03:02:05] Joseph F. Smith writing that.

Michelle Stone [03:02:07] So this is so interesting. This is what I started to find. Every single piece of evidence has huge problems. There's nothing in my mind. Everything I have seen is better explained as this later created evidence than it is as actual contemporary factual evidence.

Shawn Delyn [03:02:22] Frustrating.

Michelle Stone [03:02:23] It's so frustrating.

Shawn Delyn [03:02:24] I was trying to. Obviously, I'm gonna get her. I'm gonna get her. And I'm like, I'm so glad I didn't run with that. I'm so glad I looked at the footnotes this time.

Michelle Stone [03:02:30] Good.

Shawn Delyn [03:02:31] You look. You would have called me on that, right? You would have busted me. So freaking Joseph F. Smith.

Michelle Stone [03:02:36] Joseph F. Smith was like the first correlation committee and kind of the correlation committee on steroids.

Shawn Delyn [03:02:41] He wasn't the first. I'd say Joseph Smith was, but we can talk about that.

Michelle Stone [03:02:44] Later.

Michelle Stone [03:02:44] Okay. Okay. I guess. I mean, like, like. Yeah, that's a fair point. But Joseph F. Smith after the restoration was the first correlation. He's the one that took the lectures of faith out of the Doctrine and Covenants because he agreed with some point in lecture five. And then he is also the one that tried to compile evidence. And we have him writing a letter to Orson Pratt that says that he was shocked by the fact that there was no evidence of Joseph Smith's polygamy. He's asking Orson Pratt to write his story of polygamy, saying that he needs to create them because there's nothing. And Orson Pratt doesn't do that. And then also Joseph F. Smith, in one of his exchanges, I believe it was with Joseph iii. If not, it was with a different RLDS leader. And I'm going to say Joseph iii. But he said, I challenge you to find one thing that my father ever said in favor of polygamy and Joseph F. The only thing he could Find is this October 5th journal entry that was altered.

Shawn Delyn [03:03:38] Oh, wow. Yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:03:39] And so those kinds of things. This. Let's. Let me just make this point. Can I just quickly, please. This has been an interesting thing to me because I actually was very slow to be willing to accept that Joseph Smith didn't originate polygamy for a variety of reasons. But one thing that I find fascinating is the more evidence we get, the more access to documents, the more people studying the documents, the more scientific evidence, DNA, whatever. The stronger the case against Joseph Smith's polygamy becomes, in your view? Well, actually, no. Like, it was much stronger before we had this monogamy affirmative movement. I haven't seen anything come out of the Joseph Smith papers that has strengthened the argument that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.

Shawn Delyn [03:04:18] Interesting.

Michelle Stone [03:04:19] Or studying affidavits. And I would expect the opposite to happen.

Shawn Delyn [03:04:22] I don't know enough to agree or not agree, but I do think you know more than me, so I'm not going to argue with you.

Michelle Stone [03:04:27] That was unfair. I will acknowledge that.

Michelle Stone [03:04:29] I.

Shawn Delyn [03:04:31] No, it's good. Super quickly. I just. I want to thank those who donate, make this possible. So, Les Adams, thanks for the support. Same with all the opposed. Donnie Lee Gringo in Brazil is asking a question about how you deal with the affidavits of Joseph's plural wives. We're going to get to that. Donnie Lee Gringo in Brazil, but just

Michelle Stone [03:04:49] know I can answer that really quickly.

Shawn Delyn [03:04:50] Now you want to answer that.

Michelle Stone [03:04:53] So, Cheryl Bruno and I are actually writing a book on the affidavits that we're hoping will be out early next year. Okay, so that will be exciting.

Shawn Delyn [03:04:59] Stay tuned. Okay, cool.

Michelle Stone [03:05:00] Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [03:05:01] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:05:01] I will just say this. The affidavits are not what you think that they are.

Shawn Delyn [03:05:04] Yeah, well, I mean, it almost sounds like in some instances these women were given a template.

Michelle Stone [03:05:10] It was Joseph F. Smith making a form letter and then later filling in the names.

Shawn Delyn [03:05:14] Yeah, I mean, some of them, not all of them, but some of them,

Michelle Stone [03:05:16] Joseph F. Smith's mostly are.

Shawn Delyn [03:05:19] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:05:19] The 1869 and 1870 that Joseph F. Smith did.

Shawn Delyn [03:05:22] Okay, well, I'm not going to argue with you. Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:05:25] There are later ones that are more in the women's voices.

Shawn Delyn [03:05:28] Okay. So. Okay, so you're looking at DNC 132. You're finding that it just doesn't hold up. Muster in your story. Where does that take you? So you're in this homeschooling group, Facebook group, learning about polygamy. You start to question and doubt DNC132. What happens next in terms of leading you to your YouTube channel.

Starting a Podcast and Engaging the Polygamy Debate

Michelle Stone [03:05:53] So, yeah, so I'll actually jump ahead because I had that Facebook group for several years. It was a lot of fun to engage with a lot of angry polygamists that you would dare. A woman would dare question, you know. But it was really good. I learned a ton. And then I just kept having my babies. And then I had that experience when I was pregnant with my 12th when I was told to tell other women. And then I went on to have another baby. And it was after that, it was in, I want to say January of 20, 2022. That one day I was just told, it's time.

Shawn Delyn [03:06:22] So this is three years ago. Three years ago you started.

Michelle Stone [03:06:25] Yes. And yeah, everything I've learned about church history has been in the last two and a half years.

Shawn Delyn [03:06:29] That is, I just. My mind can't wrap around that.

Michelle Stone [03:06:32] It's been a lot.

Shawn Delyn [03:06:32] Yeah, you've Learned more in three years than I've learned in 50, 55.

Michelle Stone [03:06:38] I've been.

Michelle Stone [03:06:38] It's a very narrow and dedicated focus and I think my ADD hyper focus works. And then I tend to have. Be able to grasp things well sometimes, you know, so. But anyway, I was told it's time. And I actually was still in that dismal space. But I ended up one day. Cause I just felt overwhelmed. Like, I can't. I don't know how to do this. I can't do this, you know.

Shawn Delyn [03:07:02] Do what?

Michelle Stone [03:07:03] Start a podcast.

Michelle Stone [03:07:04] I had.

Michelle Stone [03:07:04] No, I'm not techie. I don't Design, I had no idea what to do. And I knew I wanted it to be called 132 problems because it's section 132. And I thought that was a fun name. And so I one morning woke up, and it was just like. I compare it to Nephi being told how to build the ship, because I just was. Because we still had. I don't even know how many kids we had home at that time. We have seven at home right now, so we must have had eight or nine at home. Eight, I guess I'll have to remember. But I was just kind of shown. This is the room you can use. This is how you can set it up. I was told to call my son that. Son that. Anyway, my second son, I was told call him. And it just all came together, like, miraculously. And I just went up and recorded my first 15 minutes episode, feeling like a complete idiot, because who cares about polygamy? What a random, bizarre, dumb topic to talk about in 2022. Right? Like, I was just like, okay, I'm feeling like I'm supposed to do this, so I'll do this. I had no idea what was going to happen.

Shawn Delyn [03:08:18] How much of a consumer were you of, like, other YouTube channels or other podcasts prior to?

Michelle Stone [03:08:24] I had listened to Lindsey Hansen Parks, for example.

Shawn Delyn [03:08:26] You're a polygamy, like, all the way through.

Michelle Stone [03:08:28] Okay, well, I started. I started late, but then I went back, you know, But I was frustrated by it because I had different information. You know, I'd read Carolyn Pearson's book, and that's also Ghost of Eternal Polygamy.

Shawn Delyn [03:08:40] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:08:41] Yeah, I thought she did a great job. But I still was kind of frustrated because what I wanted was sort of the scriptural exegesis, sort of the. This is theologically why you can know that polygamy is not of God for people. Because that's who I was. Like, when I still believed in polygamy, I don't know that I would have read Carolyn Pearson's book, but if I had, I might have been like, ooh, this is really hard. I mean, I needed the. I really like the scriptures. I needed the. Like, here's what God says. Here's what this scripture says. Here's what this scripture says. Here's what this church leader said compared to what the scripture said. Right? Like, there is no defense for this. Like this. You cannot defend polygamy. And that I also went through before when I learned that polygamy was never of God. I went through a period of really, oh, gosh just repentance feeling like. Because of course, when I had imagined polygamy, when I was so busy with my big family, it was like there'd be someone there to help me, you know. And so it was so, again, so prideful and selfish. Like, oh, another woman's life is just to help me with my. That's what her life needs to be. You know, I hadn't stopped to think about these things. And then I also. And I've heard this from so many people. There's sort of a repentance process of believing that that's who God was, of believing that that could be the nature of God. And it's like, that is not God. And I'm sorry. Like, I really object to a human tendency to blame God for the mistakes of man. And I just. I think we need to not do that.

Shawn Delyn [03:10:11] That's what many of the church's gospel topics essays do. Is they. If something really like the priesthood ban, Ultimately it wasn't that the members were racist. It's that we don't know God's mysterious ways.

Michelle Stone [03:10:23] Yeah. But I so appreciate that Deseret book printed Paul Reeves book and that we are. I mean, I know it's hard and it's frustrating. I also know that the church leaders. I was thinking about this the other. Other day, like when my kids are in a fight and they all want the same thing and I'm trying to make them all happy and feel like I don't even know how to make my own kids happy when you're running a big church organization. And, you know, like, I don't want to be critical of the leaders because while there are things I disagree on, I just am. I just want to do my part.

Shawn Delyn [03:10:54] Yeah. And I'm not asking to be critical of them. I'm just noting that oftentimes in the church when we really don't have a good answer for something really awful that happened, like the priesthood and temple ban for black people, like polygamy. I don't think whoever writes those documents. We don't even. It's probably not the leaders. Whoever writes those documents tends to fall back to God. God's ways are mysterious. Which for my Christian and theist friends is so frustrating because many of my Christian and theist friends believe that that blaming of God for the horrific practices of humans kills God and creates ex Mormon atheists.

Michelle Stone [03:11:36] I 100% agree with you. I could not agree with you more. And it breaks my heart. And I find it very troubling and upsetting. I think. Yeah. I just. It's very. I mean, repentance is a universal. And all that God wants from us is a contrite spirit, a broken heart, and a contrary, and a willingness to repent. I think that God is actually cool with us being like, whoa, really messed that up. I'm really sorry. I'm gonna try to do better. And I think that that's what we as individuals do. Like, I'm really happy to be someone who can tell my kids, I'm so sorry, I did that wrong, rather than, you know, the kind of parent that my kids can't criticize. And I would love it if we as an institution could have that same approach a little bit bit more easily.

Shawn Delyn [03:12:20] Totally. Yeah. So you wanted. When you were watching, listening to Lindsay Hansen Parks Year of Polygamy, you were hoping for some sort of doctrinal, scriptural, theological, spiritual denunciation of polygamy, and instead it was more historical.

Michelle Stone [03:12:37] Well, I actually. And I don't want to. I was just not as a criticism

Shawn Delyn [03:12:40] of her, just of what you were wanting.

Michelle Stone [03:12:42] Well, I'm just kind of. I might make a little Christmas. I don't mean to, but I was actually disappointed because I felt like what she was doing is making a podcast out of Todd Kopton's book. Like, I felt that's basically each episode

Shawn Delyn [03:12:53] was a chapter in Todd Compton's book. I don't think she hid that right.

Michelle Stone [03:12:57] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [03:12:57] So I think that was the model.

Michelle Stone [03:12:58] That was the model. And I didn't feel like it was very.

Shawn Delyn [03:13:02] I mean, was it original? Is that your concern?

Michelle Stone [03:13:05] So I've had Todd Compton on my show, and I really like Todd. I'm thrilled that he's coming to our conference. You know, he did. I believe that he really wrote his book when he was in a place of being quite frustrated with the church. He actually wrote his book to kind of give the church a black eye. And I think his book was a fantastic groundwork to say, hey, let's focus on these women and let's tell these stories. But the fact that we kind of treat it as the magnum opus and now the work is done, rather than a first foray into the topic, is really troubling to me.

Shawn Delyn [03:13:35] It's basically all the documents he could find about each of Joseph's 30 plus wives in a chapter. Is that right?

Michelle Stone [03:13:41] Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:13:41] Yes. But I feel like it's also a lot of speculation, a lot of almost historical fiction type storytelling at points.

Shawn Delyn [03:13:48] Todd does that.

Michelle Stone [03:13:49] Well, I mean. I mean, who am I to criticize Todd? No, that's just My impression, you know, and then I also, when I go back and look at the sources, this is kind of what I think has happened with the polygamy debate. Can I go into that? So I think that this is what has happened. So first of all, the RLDS Church, as you said, there was a tug of war between the LDS Church and the RLDS Church. And Joseph Smith's polygamy was a big part of that. Another part was the succession that it had to be lineal, which is why Joseph F. Smith, who was really a troubled guy, was called into the apostleship quite young and groomed to be a leader. Right. So that they had. Look, we've got a Smith too, you know, so. But the polygamy was a big part of the tug of war. And then in the. Well, I don't know when it started, but I know it was happening in the. The RLDS Church. They were training all of their leaders and historians at a very liberal Methodist College called St. Paul, 1960s. 1960s, yes. I sometimes get my senses.

Shawn Delyn [03:14:42] No, no, no. I just want to make sure our listeners knew which century.

Michelle Stone [03:14:46] Yes, it is that century. And so. And there were several things that happened. The position papers that the leadership was working on were released, sort of like a Mormon leaks, you know, and caused a huge rift and a huge division. There was a. There was a segment of the church that was. Most of the leadership and historians that had been trained in this liberal college that really wanted to become more ecumenical and less distinct. So they were wanting to separate themselves from Joseph Smith. They were wanting to separate themselves from their Mormonism and become more Christian. Right. And when those position papers were released, that caused a huge uproar. And then several other things happened. We started to get the. Like Flanders, I want to say, is it Robert Flanders wrote his book. Oh, is it Nauvoo Kingdom on the Mississippi, Something, which is the first one I'm aware of, that kind of opened the door to Joseph Smith starting polygamy. And then we had Richard Howard's paper that caused a bit of an uproar. But it was really the women in the priesthood that caused the church to split.

Shawn Delyn [03:15:46] Our earliest church allowing women to have the priesthood.

Michelle Stone [03:15:49] Priesthood, yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:15:49] Which was quite early in the, in the early 80s. That was quite avant garde, you know, and so.

Shawn Delyn [03:15:55] And so in Mormon. In Mormon land.

Michelle Stone [03:15:57] In Mormon land. You're right.

Michelle Stone [03:15:58] You are correct.

Michelle Stone [03:16:01] And so anyway, it was, it was that whole movement that caused the split. And actually the. My understanding is the largest and most sort of faithful, highest tithing. Congregations, spirit and formed the restoration branches. And so I think it's a misnomer to believe that the RLDS Church just. They wanted Joseph Smith to not be a polygamist, but the evidence was so strong, they just couldn't deny it anymore. That's actually not accurate. They were motivated to separate themselves from Joseph Smith, and that was one thing that they did. And also. And to separate themselves from the Book of Mormon as well, to some extent. I don't want to speak for community of Christ people. I. There are people in faith everywhere in the community.

Shawn Delyn [03:16:42] It is very possible that leaders and historians in the RLDS Church just looked at the documents and decided that the evidence weighed in favor of Joseph being a polygamist.

Michelle Stone [03:16:52] Right.

Michelle Stone [03:16:52] Well, I think they brought their bias to it because we can read. So what I think is more useful to do rather than saying the RLDS Church admits it, which actually isn't quite true, because the RLDS church that didn't believe it split off and became the restoration branches. And that's where we get Richard and Pamela Price and others that did all of the. Did so much research to show that Joseph was not a polygamist. And the ones who were wanting to go in the liberal direction did that, but I moved that direction. But what we can do is look at their books and papers and see what evidence they rely on. Does that make sense? So we don't need to just say they changed their mind. That's not good scholarship. What we should do is say what made them change their mind and see if it's as solid as they claim it is. And I don't think it is.

Shawn Delyn [03:17:31] Dan Van Vogel is saying the split was also about the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

Michelle Stone [03:17:36] Yes, I believe that's true. Thanks, Dan.

Shawn Delyn [03:17:39] Okay. Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:17:40] Yeah. They wanted to separate themselves from Joseph and from. The real connection to the Book of Mormon is my understanding. And so. But why I think that's important is because the RLDS Church, dropping their side of the tug of war, let the narrative just stand unquestioned. Right. And so. So from that point on, anything that was discovered, it was. I believe it was around that time or after that, like the affidavits were discovered or that, like. So every new discovery was like more evidence of Joseph's polygamy. And it was never questioned, it was never critically examined. It was just accepted with excitement as telling us this narrative. And that's where we've come since, you know, since really the 80s. And that's why I think this is emerging because we're going back to. Now that we all have access to those documents and reexamining them and going, okay, now let's rethink this. There are a ton of problems here.

Shawn Delyn [03:18:31] So the lack of attention, you're saying, led to some lack of scrutiny.

Michelle Stone [03:18:37] Yes.

Shawn Delyn [03:18:38] Of the sources.

Michelle Stone [03:18:39] Yeah. Like if I. If I. Forgive me. But that's one thing that Cheryl and I said in our response to your episode.

Michelle Stone [03:18:46] Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [03:18:46] That we didn't have you on the discussions episode.

Michelle Stone [03:18:49] Right.

Michelle Stone [03:18:49] Well, yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:18:49] I just said the only way I know to overcome bias. The only way I know to overcome bias is to engage with someone who disagrees with you. Because I know that you and Julia and Nemo, we're trying really hard to look at things fairly and without bias, but I think it's impossible if there's not someone pushing back.

Shawn Delyn [03:19:07] Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I agree. I totally agree. So I apologize to you. I apologize to Cheryl. Humble. I know you're not asking me to do that, but I agree.

Michelle Stone [03:19:19] So what I'm wanting people to realize is that is what's happened in the broader polygamy discussion.

Shawn Delyn [03:19:23] Of course. Of course.

Michelle Stone [03:19:24] So I keep trying to tell people, you guys want us. We are making everyone's scholarship better. Instead of just shutting us up. You need to dig deeper and do better and come up with better arguments and find better sources. Because we're poking holes in what you have so far.

Shawn Delyn [03:19:39] Yeah, no, it's good. Yeah. Any scientist scholar should welcome scrutiny.

Michelle Stone [03:19:46] I agree.

Michelle Stone [03:19:47] I agree.

Shawn Delyn [03:19:48] Yeah. Okay. So you weren't crazy about Lindsay Hanson Park's Year of Polygamy podcast? In some ways, yeah. And so what happened then?

Michelle Stone [03:19:59] Oh, I don't know.

Shawn Delyn [03:20:00] I'm like, did you read Todd's book?

Michelle Stone [03:20:02] Yeah. So most of those books, I spend most of my time in the footnotes, so I don't necessarily read them through cover to cover.

Shawn Delyn [03:20:09] Wow. So you're an original source person.

Michelle Stone [03:20:11] Oh, 100. I think that is the only way to study polygamy.

Shawn Delyn [03:20:15] Interesting.

Michelle Stone [03:20:15] I think anything else you do is asking for these problems.

Shawn Delyn [03:20:18] Oh, wow.

Michelle Stone [03:20:18] Because what we have at this point is interpretations based on interpretations of interpretations.

Shawn Delyn [03:20:24] Yeah. So Todd's perspective just puts you at risk of just being misled.

Michelle Stone [03:20:30] Yeah, it's interesting to. Because there are a lot of people who've read a book, they've read Todd Compton or they've read something else, and they're like, oh, my gosh, she is a flat earther. She's a. You know, and they. All it is. Is like, I've been told this, so I know it's true. And I'm just asking for people to hold a little space, that maybe. Maybe there's more to this story than you. I did compare it to people who leave the church. Can I go into that?

Shawn Delyn [03:20:53] Sure. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.

Michelle Stone [03:20:55] Is that all right?

Shawn Delyn [03:20:55] Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:20:56] So I messaged John. I don't know how long ago. It's been a year or two ago.

Shawn Delyn [03:20:59] Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:21:00] And yeah.

Shawn Delyn [03:21:01] Cause I didn't ask you this, but, like, I know that the term conspiracy theorist is offensive, and you don't even like the term polygamy denier.

Michelle Stone [03:21:11] Well.

Shawn Delyn [03:21:11] Right.

Michelle Stone [03:21:12] Well, I think that. I do think it's a pejorative, and it's not that. I think it's also misleading. Like, when I watched during Julia's and Nemo's episode, I saw that you. It looked to me like you actually believe that term, which isn't an accurate term. I don't deny that polygamy happened. I don't deny Nauvoo polygamy.

Shawn Delyn [03:21:27] Right, right.

Michelle Stone [03:21:28] So I think. And I also think that anytime you call someone a denier, you are calling them a conspiracy theorist. You know, that's what it's intended to.

Shawn Delyn [03:21:34] Holocaust denier. 9, 11.

Michelle Stone [03:21:37] Yeah, yeah. All of that. And so. And I think that this is just more accurate and takes us out. I just. I would like to move. So far, the discussion has been so hampered by ad hominem attacks and appeal to authority, which are both logical fallacies. And calling someone a conspiracy theorist or a flat earther or a polygamy denier is just ad hominem. And then saying the whole historical consensus agrees is just appeal to authority. And I'm like, okay, let's talk about the documents. How about that? Right. And so there was one other question you asked that I was going to answer or one other thing I was seeing.

Shawn Delyn [03:22:07] Oh. So, yeah. So I think you were just wanting to talk about the value of engaging, having you in the conversation, but also how ex Mormons have been mislabeled and you connecting with that.

Michelle Stone [03:22:25] Yes, yes. So I messaged John with what I thought was a really good point. It was one of the times that you did an episode on polygamy deny or something or other, I think. And so I sent John a message. I sent you a message. And I just pointed out, like, I have really valued your research you did on why people leave things church, and I've really been an advocate for that. I'm troubled any. Anytime we're sitting in church and they're talking about people who leave, I. I tend to speak up, you know, because I just don't like us to label people. So anytime we talk about people who leave and say they just wanted to sin or they never had a testimony

Shawn Delyn [03:22:57] or they were offended, or even calling them anti Mormons.

Michelle Stone [03:22:59] Yes. Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [03:23:00] Which is a pejorative from our perspective.

Michelle Stone [03:23:02] Oh, that's good to know.

Shawn Delyn [03:23:03] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:23:03] Do you like ex Mormon? What do you like?

Shawn Delyn [03:23:05] I mean, everyone's different.

Michelle Stone [03:23:06] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [03:23:07] Yeah. But I'm not even speaking for me generally, like you with polygamy Denier, the label anti Mormon has been used to kind of dismiss people instead of the source documents being legitimate or legitimately concerning. Oh, they just have an axe to grind. They just wanted to sin. They just wanted to drink.

Michelle Stone [03:23:28] They can leave the church. They can't leave the church alone.

Shawn Delyn [03:23:30] That whole way to dismiss labels are way to dismiss.

Michelle Stone [03:23:32] Right. And so that. That's what I pointed out to John. Is that just the same way that it's hurtful when a lot of people who leave the church want to say to their family and friends, maybe I've read things that you haven't read. Maybe I've learned things that you haven't learned. Right. Maybe there are reasons that I am actually a logical thinking, good person who made a decision based on evidence. Right. And so that's what I wanted to say is like with the polygamy Denier label, when they just say, oh, she just couldn't handle her cognitive dissonance, or, oh, she just has her body. She just had to have Joseph on a pedestal. And she Learned about the 2014 essays and. Right. It does the exact same thing where it dehumanizes and minimizes the experience. Where I want to say, maybe there are things I've read that you haven't yet read.

Shawn Delyn [03:24:12] Maybe there's a question which is for sure true for almost everyone in the world. You are in the 99.9 percentile of reading stuff on Mormon Cleveland.

Michelle Stone [03:24:22] I feel like I'm setting myself up for a full. Just so everyone knows, there is a lot more I need to read.

Shawn Delyn [03:24:27] I am your. I am your witness.

Michelle Stone [03:24:29] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:24:30] I feel like I've been, like, drinking from a fire hose, trying to master

Shawn Delyn [03:24:34] this body of work. It's impressive. Okay, so you decide you want to do 132 problems. YouTube. You create it originally. It wasn't going to be a deep historical dive. Or was it?

Evaluating Historical Sources on Joseph Smith and Polygamy

Michelle Stone [03:24:46] No, theological.

Shawn Delyn [03:24:47] Okay, theological.

Michelle Stone [03:24:48] And I thought Maybe I'd have 132. Two episodes. Maybe that might be fun, but kind of scriptural.

Shawn Delyn [03:24:52] And theological. Okay. And then how. What happened?

Michelle Stone [03:24:55] And then. Okay, I don't want to. Then as I studied, I really argued against people and pushed back against people who were talking about Joseph's polygamy because I kept being lumped in with that, you know, And I was like, that's not the important question. Whether it was Joseph or Brigham. We have the same problem in the church is kind of what I was.

Shawn Delyn [03:25:15] Polygamy is the problem. Doesn't matter who did it.

Michelle Stone [03:25:17] Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:25:17] Like, the church has the same problem whether it's Joseph or Brigham. Right. It was my perspective. So that. That isn't the important question. The question is, is it from God? Right. That was my perspective. And I also felt like it detracted from that more important question. Right. But I eventually learned that I came to. So one of those times, I came to believe differently. I felt like I got a very different answer and learned actually, it is important. And it was time for me to start delving into that more. And that was challenging. I will. I'll jump ahead a little. I told John this. I was really. I was reading the things that people were writing. St. Joseph wasn't a polygamist, and I was really taking it seriously. But I had some real hangups that I was like, I don't know how you get past that piece of evidence. Like, you know, do you need to do a super chat? I can pause.

Shawn Delyn [03:26:02] No, no, no, no, no.

Michelle Stone [03:26:03] All right.

Michelle Stone [03:26:04] And I, you know, I really had some hangups. And then gradually, just something would happen, and I would go, oh. And see that evidence in a new light that I hadn't considered before. You know, that happened a couple of times, and there were still things that bothered me, but that kept happening. And it was then.

Shawn Delyn [03:26:21] Are you comfortable sharing what some of the biggest early problems were that then you got over just because it would show that you had empathy for the people?

Michelle Stone [03:26:29] I absolutely do.

Shawn Delyn [03:26:30] So when you had hangups, some of

Michelle Stone [03:26:33] the biggest ones, I thought, William Marks. I could not find a way past William Marks.

Shawn Delyn [03:26:37] Tell people what that means. He was a stake president, right?

Michelle Stone [03:26:41] Yeah, he was the stake president in Nauvoo, and then he joined the rlds, and I think he became an apostle. Cheryl's going to kill me for not knowing because she did his biography. But he has some statements that I was like, I don't know how you get past that.

Shawn Delyn [03:26:52] Saying what? Basically just saying.

Michelle Stone [03:26:54] So he talks about and he tells the story multiple times, saying that near the end of his life, Joseph came to him and said. Said, I'm going to root polygamy out of the church. I feel it will be our destruction. I should look at the quotes exactly

Shawn Delyn [03:27:03] because it matters, but he's basically saying, number one, I was with Joseph and he was teaching polygamy. And then late in life, Joseph backtracked.

Michelle Stone [03:27:10] No, he was saying that Joseph said to him that I have been deceived about polygamy and I fear it will destroy the church.

Shawn Delyn [03:27:17] That Joseph shouldn't have been practicing.

Michelle Stone [03:27:19] Yes.

Michelle Stone [03:27:19] Yes.

Shawn Delyn [03:27:20] And you found that to be compelling.

Michelle Stone [03:27:22] Very compelling. I was like, I don't know how

Shawn Delyn [03:27:24] you get past it as evidence that Joseph had practiced it, because I find

Michelle Stone [03:27:27] William Marks to be very reliable. You know, and then another one I was really troubled by. I didn't understand the documentation of Fanny Alger, but I was really troubled by it because.

Shawn Delyn [03:27:37] Trying to understand, was it an affair? Why was Joseph before the sealing or the polygamy revelation come. Joseph is allegedly having an affair with a girl who lives in his home.

Michelle Stone [03:27:51] Like those. And I didn't know the documentation well enough. I couldn't find a way through that. I was like, something happened with Fanny is kind of what I thought, you know? And. And. And for me, I just. I tend to have a high bar, a high standard. If, like. Like I go crazy with the arguments of, oh, this is what happened with Fanny. It was just a ceiling or it was just a. Whatever. What I'm like, if Emma felt betrayed, it was not okay. Right. So if he betrayed, so believe Emma,

Shawn Delyn [03:28:19] you were kind of feeling.

Michelle Stone [03:28:20] Yeah, like, I'm like, if Emma was betrayed, I'm not on the team with, you know, like, oh, well, I should go back. When I did think that Joseph had originated polygamy, I just genuinely, based on some other conversations I'd had with some people before telling me their personal experiences, I just believed that he had lost his spiritual protection and that's why he was able to be killed. That was my like.

Shawn Delyn [03:28:41] So maybe Joseph went into apostasy.

Michelle Stone [03:28:43] Well, just. I don't know if it was too strong. No, I wouldn't use that strong of just.

Shawn Delyn [03:28:48] I mean, I think many people do.

Michelle Stone [03:28:50] Yeah, sure.

Shawn Delyn [03:28:50] But many people believe that Joseph just was a fallen prophet.

Michelle Stone [03:28:53] Yeah, I would. I wouldn't have ever used that language. It was just like, he dabbled in this at least. Like, he at least dabbled. And that's not okay with God is kind of where I was.

Shawn Delyn [03:29:02] And that's how he was allowed to be killed.

Michelle Stone [03:29:04] Yeah, that was my. That was my perspective.

Shawn Delyn [03:29:06] So you got. You got to that point. Okay, okay, okay.

Michelle Stone [03:29:08] I was there for quite a while once I learned that polygamy was not of God.

Shawn Delyn [03:29:12] That's kind of was this before 132 problems.

Michelle Stone [03:29:15] I thought that for many years.

Shawn Delyn [03:29:17] So there's never been a point during your YouTube channel where you still believed that Joseph Smith probably practiced.

Michelle Stone [03:29:24] No. The first almost year of it, I did. I started my YouTube channel in that place.

Shawn Delyn [03:29:28] Do those episodes still exist?

Michelle Stone [03:29:30] I just avoided. Because I was just talking about the scriptures. I was just saying no matter who started it.

Shawn Delyn [03:29:35] So for the first year of 132 problems you were just concerned with. With polygamy as a practice is not. End of the scriptures, not of whether or not Joseph. Oh, wow.

Michelle Stone [03:29:46] And I used to say like it doesn't. Like I would be frustrated by the Joseph conversation. Cause I felt like people were kind of saying if Joseph started it, then it's of God and if it's not of God, then Joseph didn't start it. You know. And that bothered me. You know, it felt just like a bias that I didn't have evidence for.

Shawn Delyn [03:30:05] So what turned you?

Michelle Stone [03:30:06] Yeah, so it was when. Sorry. It was actually when I did my episode on Emma that I.

Michelle Stone [03:30:14] That I was like talk about that. So I did.

Shawn Delyn [03:30:18] Most people don't know anything about Emma. They think she's awful or you know, whatever. They praise her, but they really don't know.

Michelle Stone [03:30:25] Yeah, I did it. I did a deep study of Emma.

Michelle Stone [03:30:28] And you can read.

Michelle Stone [03:30:28] We have.

Shawn Delyn [03:30:29] We have Mormon Enigma.

Michelle Stone [03:30:31] Uh huh.

Michelle Stone [03:30:31] Yep.

Michelle Stone [03:30:32] And we have several letters.

Shawn Delyn [03:30:33] Well, the footnotes in it.

Michelle Stone [03:30:34] Mormon Enigma. I did, I did read many, many,

Michelle Stone [03:30:36] many of the footnotes.

Michelle Stone [03:30:37] All of the relevant footnotes. And we have many letters that she wrote. We have histories of people talking about her and Emma. From what I have been able to see, other than some late biased sources like William Law or Joseph Jackson in Nauvoo, like some sources that I tend not to hold to the same level as the universal sources coming from somewhere else. Well, and also Brigham Young is a source that I don't give as much.

Shawn Delyn [03:31:02] Also Clayton, right? Clayton says he talked to Emma about some of the polygamous.

Michelle Stone [03:31:06] Well, yeah, we can get to Clayton because that. Yeah, yes, that's a good point.

Shawn Delyn [03:31:09] He's a problematic source for Emma from your perspective.

Michelle Stone [03:31:12] Well, I believe he's a problematic source, period.

Shawn Delyn [03:31:14] Yeah, I know.

Michelle Stone [03:31:16] Yes. But he does have things to say about Emma. But as I read everything else that didn't come from the polygamy or the. I don't know what I could call Doctrine and Covenants refers to them as the testimonies of traitors. It tells Joseph, my friends will not be swayed by the testimonies of traitors. So we can call like Bennett or Jackson or Law that if we want to. But everything I read about Emma talked about how wonderful she was. And when I read her letters, the intellect and sincerity and goodness, and when I read through the journals of when Joseph was in high school in 1842, and the letters back and forth between them, I just came to.

Michelle Stone [03:31:52] And then.

Michelle Stone [03:31:52] And then I read what Brigham Young said about Emma, and he had a lot to say about Emma once the RLDS church missionaries started coming out. Even though, remember, she was not the head of the church. Right. It was. But he had a lot of things to say about Emma, and I just didn't believe it was true. I'm like, these stories do not fit with this woman who was talked about this way by everybody else.

Shawn Delyn [03:32:14] Her mother, basically, smear job. You felt she had been maligned by Brigham Young.

Michelle Stone [03:32:20] And I'm really.

Michelle Stone [03:32:25] It's painful to me that we still

Michelle Stone [03:32:28] tend to see Emma through the lens of Brigham Young. I think that does a disservice to Emma Smith for sure, but also to all of the women in the church throughout the rest of the. You know, throughout the rest of the church. I think that I did an episode on this a little while ago when there was that episode uproar with something posted on Instagram about the Relief Society. Anyway, I just think that redeeming Emma is important. And it was when I studied her life. For me, saying Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy was not about Joseph Smith nearly as much as it was about Emma. Because if these things are true about Joseph, then they're true about Emma. Right.

Shawn Delyn [03:33:05] So it's not that no man would cheat on a woman. So amazing doesn't mean. No, no, no.

Michelle Stone [03:33:12] It's the polygamist. If Joseph is a polygamist, then we have a version of Emma that she's a raving lunatic, shoving women down the stairs, screaming at Joseph, having him beat her, disagreeing with it, but then agreeing with it, but then disagreeing, wishy washy, having no moral compass like it does not make sense, and then lying about

Shawn Delyn [03:33:30] it later and saying it never happened.

Michelle Stone [03:33:32] Yeah, I cannot find this. Her biography is called Mormon Enigma because it does not make sense. The polygamist narrative of Emma doesn't make sense at all when we look at who the woman actually is. And also, there are several things that people just kind of poo poo and brush away that they Shouldn't. Like what polygamous leader puts a woman in high position in charge of the church who fights against polygamy? If he wants to practice polygamy. Right. Like, Brigham Young's relationship with women was so different from Joseph Smith's. And all of these things fit really well, well with Brigham Young's personality and relationship with women. We have talks from Brigham Young as early as 1845. What does he say? No man, no woman will get to heaven, but that a man leads her. And any woman, that any man that is led by a woman will go to hell. God knew what Eve was. So he's, you know, like. Like, there are some. There's some strong language from Brigham Young that fits with the polygamist model and the polygamist mind. And I can't find that in Joseph Smith.

Shawn Delyn [03:34:38] This is just a comment that I'm seeing that just because I respect Dan Vogel, I'll show it. Now he's saying, when you think of Emma, think of Hillary Clinton, in other words, I think what he means by that is you sigh. I assume what he means is, like, you're in a marriage, you've got an

Michelle Stone [03:34:58] unfaithful spouse, an opportunist, and so you'll go along to get along because there's something free. Like, I don't think that generally people think of Hillary Clinton in the highest terms. People at least that look at that like. Like we see her.

Shawn Delyn [03:35:11] It depends. Some people think she do.

Michelle Stone [03:35:13] Right, Right.

Shawn Delyn [03:35:14] I mean, what I like to think of is Eleanor Roosevelt. Like, FDR is one of the most. He served four terms. I mean, he died in his fourth term, but, like, he's a loved president,

Michelle Stone [03:35:24] but again, he was.

Shawn Delyn [03:35:26] He had a mistress. And I think Eleanor Roosevelt had a mistress, but they also both believed in his presidency, in saving America, and they were partners, but they just understood maybe sexually they weren't super compatible. It doesn't have to be. So I'll say Eleanor Roosevelt, not Hillary, to take all the negativity around Hillary off the table. But I could see a couple saying, maybe Eleanor's. Maybe I'm lesbian, or him saying, I need other things. Maybe we don't have the same Libido. It's the 30s and 40s. We're trying to save America. So there are things bigger than just whether or not we're monogamous. So we have an arrangement. Right.

Michelle Stone [03:36:07] I hear you, but there's nothing evil

Shawn Delyn [03:36:08] about that in my mind.

Michelle Stone [03:36:09] Sure, I hear you, but I think it's missing the point. If we had some people claiming that he had this affair and that Eleanor was throwing people down the stairs and was trying to poison him. It was out of control. But. But every other. It's not about that Joseph was cheating on Emma. It's about who Emma is in this narrative. It's about who we have to believe Emma is and what she did. That doesn't. That's what I object to. It's not just that I say, oh, he couldn't have cheated on her. It's like, no, the things that the polygamy narrative necessitates Emma doing don't make sense to me. But that was just my first. That's not what I base my entire opinion on. But that was kind of the thing that made me.

Michelle Stone [03:36:49] And then.

Michelle Stone [03:36:50] And then, in addition to that, there were other things. Like, I mean, learning that there is not a single record of polygamy in Nauvoo of Joseph's polygamy. Not a journal entry, a letter, a sealing record. You know, like, you just can't find anything. And we can find quite a bit of other Nauvoo polygamists even before Joseph's death, but we can't find anything from Joseph. But we find constant, ongoing. Like, I don't even like to call Joseph's and Hyrum's and Emma's actions denials, because what it actually is is a massive anti polygamy campaign. Constantly, almost every day, they were fighting against it. And that's in the records that we can find now. So I have a really hard time. Like, people say that I have a conspiracy theory, and I'm like, wait, wait, wait. You're telling me that Joseph had so much power and control, that he was doing this and keeping it so secret that no one even wrote anything in Nauvoo anywhere? And I'm the one with the conspiracy theory. You know, I think it's a conspiracy either way. I just think that the conspiracy with Joseph is much harder to get behind. It requires way more people. It requires much more effectiveness.

Shawn Delyn [03:38:03] And I don't know enough to contest that position, that there's no contemporary evidence in Nauvoo affirming Joseph Smith's.

Michelle Stone [03:38:10] There are things like the Nauvoo Expositor which we could talk to, because I'm talking about. That's an important issue. But that does not. What I'm talking about is a journal entry, a letter, a ceiling record, anything we would expect to find, not to mention a child. Right. And we have other. Like, I was really amused that Julia and you pulled out the other Nauvoo polygamists having children. As if that is surprising to us or hurts us. For me, that's a huge point in favor of our argument that here we had these other polygamists barely dabbling in polygamy compared to Joseph having children. We claim Joseph had this huge polygamy and there's not a single child. That's a big problem.

Shawn Delyn [03:38:50] There were polygamous children born pre Joseph Smith's death in Nauvoo. At least five.

Michelle Stone [03:38:55] Yes.

Shawn Delyn [03:38:56] But none from Joseph, you're saying?

Michelle Stone [03:38:58] Yes. So we know that we have a lot of evidence of other polygamists in Nauvoo, mainly that inner circle people don't realize Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball were best friends their entire lives. Willard Richards, I want to say, was Brigham Young's cousin. And Heber C. Kimball was the mission president in England when they. Well, they made him. They trained him up in England when they were on their mission there. And he came over with him there so we can. Can find that little core group.

Shawn Delyn [03:39:24] And people are saying, what about John C. Bennett? We're going to get to all that. We're not quite there. Gerardo wanted me to. Gerardo really wants me to make one point, and this is not related to where we are right now, but I'll forget it if I don't. He says, john, I think you need to make the point that the LDS discussions episode that you and Cheryl responded to was not about responding to you, Michelle Stone, or 132 problems. It was more about Brian Hales and trying to reflect. Because as you said, as I think you and Cheryl have said, other than Brian Hales, there hasn't been a lot of work done, work done around Joseph Smith polygamy and potentially Joseph Smith's sexual polygamy other than Brian Hales. So I think Julia just basically relied heavily on the work he's done, and she was trying to reflect that we weren't.

Michelle Stone [03:40:14] That's good, too.

Shawn Delyn [03:40:14] We weren't thinking, let's refute Michelle and everything she said. I think. I think just because I never watched anything you've ever done until after that episode, until we started engaging.

Michelle Stone [03:40:25] Right.

Shawn Delyn [03:40:25] Not. Not two minutes of anything you've ever done. Not. Not out of disrespect. It's just. Yeah, I don't have time.

Michelle Stone [03:40:31] But see, isn't it interesting that you knew all about me as a polygamy denier and you knew I was crazy and you, when you hadn't engaged with anything, I said, I'm embarrassed.

Shawn Delyn [03:40:39] I know.

Michelle Stone [03:40:39] So I Want to thank you for having me on, and I hope that other people will listen to that. I think this is huge of you, John, and I want you to know how much I appreciate it. Thanks for being willing to talk to me.

Shawn Delyn [03:40:51] I'll tell you honestly, I went to some of my most trusted friends. I'm like, I think I want to interview Michelle. And I think even people very close to me are like, never interview her, never platform her. And there were a lot of people who are like, I'm not going anywhere near that. I don't touch that. Even saying it's dangerous or, you know, problematic to even platform Michelle. And I feel strongly that I disagree with that. I think that your command of the history and even just the position you're taking, like we've already said, is going to make us all better if we engage. But also just your intellect and your command of the history deserves respect and attention.

Michelle Stone [03:41:41] My goodness. Thank you. I really, really appreciate that.

Shawn Delyn [03:41:45] Yeah. And that doesn't mean I agree with your interpretation.

Michelle Stone [03:41:47] You don't have to. No, no. I will say this. The thing I am the dragon. I am fighting right now. The battle I have is. I just want people to acknowledge that there is a discussion to be had. I don't. Like, we haven't had the discussion yet, so it would be premature for anyone to jump to it. Well, I don't even think we can have the discussion now. Like, this is the Journal of Mormon Polygamy. We need the scholarship to continue to be done. And I just want people to recognize. Oh, the scholarship. Like, people somehow think everything's been said about polygamy that needs to be said, which is no.

Shawn Delyn [03:42:20] It's not even close to no.

Michelle Stone [03:42:21] And it's actually the most fascinating part of Mormonism. It's like, there is so much work to do.

Shawn Delyn [03:42:27] Yeah. Really quickly, Brooklyn wanted to make the point that we've discussed that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of. Is not evidence.

Michelle Stone [03:42:35] It's not evidence. In other words, it's not evidence of absence. Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [03:42:37] Just because Joseph didn't. There's no evidence of Joseph fathering children in no way means anything about whether or not he practiced polygamy or had sex.

Michelle Stone [03:42:46] I think that's a little too flippant. I mean, if there.

Shawn Delyn [03:42:50] I just want to hear, you know, that's what people think or feel.

Michelle Stone [03:42:53] Sure, sure. If there are things that you would expect to see, then that can be taken into consideration. So I'm not claiming that no children alone is proof that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist. I'm saying that the documentation I have seen is Joseph, Emma and Hyrum and others fighting vociferously against polygamy throughout their entire life. Records being on altered. A body of records being created much decades later in Utah by the very motivated polygamists who needed to say, this is Joseph doing this. Right. And on top of that, there are no children. So. Right. And there are no records.

Shawn Delyn [03:43:31] It's a data point.

Michelle Stone [03:43:32] Yeah, it is a data point and an important one. It shouldn't be ignored.

Shawn Delyn [03:43:35] Shouldn't be ignored. But doesn't. It's not. Doesn't prove anything.

Michelle Stone [03:43:39] No, it's not. I'm not here saying Joseph had no children, Therefore.

Shawn Delyn [03:43:42] Yeah, good. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. So it was Emma that turned you to gaining the position. I won't say belief that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy. You don't like. So you said earlier, it's really important that you not be viewed as someone you know in the Book of Abraham discussions. There's this apologist named. Named Kerry Muhlstein. Have you ever heard of him?

Michelle Stone [03:44:11] I have heard of Kerry Muhlstein, but I'm not sure why.

Shawn Delyn [03:44:13] No, it's okay. So in a moment of real candor, he once admitted. So I'm going to paraphrase. I'm a Mormon apologist. I start with the position that the Book of Abraham was inspired and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. And so any of the work I do as an apologist then flows from my desire, and I'm using my own words, flows from my desire to buttress the position that I began with, which is that Joseph Smith is a prophet and the Book of Abraham is inspired. So he admits that, which is honorable, but also shows a problem, which in rfm, has used different quotes too, I think, from Sherlock Holmes or whatever, that you don't start with the position and then selectively use the evidence to buttress your position. You start with the evidence and then arrive at it. And I'm not saying it's a problem, but when you say you read about Emma formed an idea in your mind about who she was and then concluded that Joseph wasn't a polygamist.

Michelle Stone [03:45:21] Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [03:45:22] You could see how someone would go, wait a minute, that sounds like something similar to Kerry Mohlstein, where you just. You decided for yourself who Emma was and what she would or wouldn't allow or do. And so from then on, you're gonna selectively look at the record and buttress that opinion from that starting point.

Michelle Stone [03:45:42] I really appreciate this question. I Think it's a really good one and an important one. So, first of all, what Kerry Muhlstein said, like, no offense, but I hate that when I homeschool my kids, we would watch the. I think it's Harvard Introduction to Philosophy courses that you can watch on YouTube. I highly recommend it for people wanting to teach their kids critical thinking. And every once in a while, a kid would stand up and say, as a Christian, I believe. And I just would want to pull my hair out, because as a Christian is not an argument. It's showing a lack of ability to make a good argument. So that's what I would say to that. So what I had tried to. To say is that actually the barriers that I had had that I couldn't get over had already kind of come away. Like, I'd already seen, oh, my gosh, there's a completely different way to interpret Marx. Oh, there are a couple of different ways, which actually, Cheryl Bruno agrees with. Right. But I hadn't seen them before then when I dug into the evidence of Fanny Alger and saw, oh, my gosh, there's another story here that is so much better supported by the evidence and makes better sense. And that happened continually with different evidence. And then I started digging in and seeing that every piece of evidence, when you pick it up and look at it, it, like, falls through your fingers. Like, there's very little there when you go to those affidavits and see what they actually are. Right. So it was all of those things had set it up. And it was when I studied Emma that I kind of was like, okay, do you know what I mean? It was not. It was not that Emma turned me or that I based my view on Emma. It was kind of like Emma was the final straw.

Shawn Delyn [03:47:15] Got it.

Michelle Stone [03:47:16] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:47:17] Yeah, yeah. Or was a final straw, because I still. I still was really, really hesitant and terrified to come out on. To come out as a monogamy affirmer. Right. But. But I just. Just the more I have dug into it, the more I have been like, oh, my gosh, every piece of evidence, this happens to it. So I've. I've become much more confident than I was when I first said it. As I studied more.

Shawn Delyn [03:47:40] What I will say is that, number one, I will agree with you that the Mormon Church is not credible at all in how it's handled its history. In many ways, in some ways, it's a world standard for keeping records and genealogy and diaries and all these minutes. Like, wow, why did you write that down? On the one hand, that on the other hand, we've already talked about Brigham Young and Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith and all the ways the church has been sketchy with its history for two centuries. You and I are on the same page about that.

Michelle Stone [03:48:13] Right, Sorry, I'm uncomfortable saying that, but yeah, that is one point I've made as well is that it's so interesting to me that people like people who exmos, if that's what you know. I don't want to use the wrong term, but that exmos tend to be like, I think the guy said this before. The Mormon Church lies about everything except polygamy. And then everything they say you can take to the bank. Like, explain that one to me.

Shawn Delyn [03:48:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we're on the same page there. Okay, so. So I think now is the point where we transition really quickly to what I imagine might just be a 10 minute section, even though I allocated an hour for it.

Michelle Stone [03:48:53] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [03:48:54] I think that it's important to at least understand that while polygamy has an entire context that you need to understand to be able to understand polygamy, I think Joseph Smith and the founding of Mormonism has a broader context to understand. Not just because they're historical documents that are problematic related to Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church's truth claims, but also that many feel really touch on Joseph Smith's credibility. So I have a list of like 10 or 15 little things that I'm not expecting to go into detail on. This isn't a gotcha. It's sort of like, are you aware of this thing? And you can just say yes or no, I'm aware of it. And then two, have you thought about it? And if you have, how you've reconciled it. And literally it's fine if this is a three minute segment that I meant to be an hour and all you say is, I've never heard of it and I've never thought about it, or yes, I've heard about it, but I haven't really thought about it. And I'm not pretending that all of those answers, let's just say in the negative, invalidates everything else we're going to talk about. Okay, but. But I am curious because if you have thought about these things and if you have come up with ways to think about it, I really want to know because your understanding of polygamy and your knowledge about polygamy is very impressive. So I don't want to leave 5 hours with you without at least giving you a shot to help me understand things that caused me to struggle okay. Is that all right?

Michelle Stone [03:50:24] Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [03:50:24] So I'll do it really quickly.

Michelle Stone [03:50:25] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [03:50:26] Okay. And so this will be like 15 or 20 quick little things, hopefully. So are you. Are you okay? So the treasure digging thing, the fact that Joseph helped people find buried treasure, allegedly got paid for it, used a stone in the hat, folk magic, occult stuff, never really found any treasure, was tried, was charged with criminal behavior. That. That was all illegal. Would you agree with those things that I just said?

Michelle Stone [03:50:55] So I have to. Again, as I have seen what the narrative is on polygamy versus what the documentation says, in my opinion, I'm willing to withhold judgment to some extent. That may make some people. I, of course, have read all about that. But again, I have my hands so full with polygamy, and that isn't to me, nearly as pressing of an issue.

Shawn Delyn [03:51:18] Okay, but is your understanding that that stuff happened, or is it possible? Are you holding open a significant space in your mind that that's all hogwash and that none of it happens? Or. Or are you like, oh, yeah, that happened.

Michelle Stone [03:51:34] I think it happened. I think that there are arguments we could have about interpretation and about belief systems. Right. I think that that's a place that presentism may come in a bit, where we're like, oh, that's wacko. But we don't know what Joseph's believing. Do you know what I mean? Like, having some wrong ideas that you believe at one point doesn't invalidate, doesn't necessarily invalidate that you could grow in whatever gift you have. I'm spitballing. This is not something I've seen studied in depth. But again, it's not something that I find to be like, oh, this is really troubling my testimony. It just hasn't hit me that way like polygamy did.

Shawn Delyn [03:52:07] But. But. So you're saying as far as you understand, he did do the treasure digging, folk magic stuff, and you agree that it was illegal and that he was charged with criminal behavior.

Michelle Stone [03:52:18] Well, we have the court record, so. Yeah. So I. But I. But I'm. I'm. Like I said, I know people might go crazy. I'm sorry. I just like to form firm opinions of things I haven't said.

Shawn Delyn [03:52:28] I respect that. I respect that. But for you, it's not a problem.

Michelle Stone [03:52:31] Not. Well, I mean, yet.

Michelle Stone [03:52:34] Yes.

Michelle Stone [03:52:34] I'm hoping that at some point I can dig into everything, but this is doing all I can do right now.

Shawn Delyn [03:52:39] Okay. All right. So the next thing is, do you understand the surroundings of Joseph and Emma's elopement, why they eloped How Isaac Hale felt about Joseph Smith, both his treasure digging and the whole Book of Mormon enterprise.

Michelle Stone [03:52:59] Yeah, I mean, I understand somewhat. So is your question like.

Shawn Delyn [03:53:04] I mean, Isaac Hale did not want Joseph to marry Emma. Isaac Hale saw Joseph as a charlatan. He felt like the treasure digging was fraud and illegal, and he felt like the Book of Mormon was a foolish enterprise. And so instead of this beautiful marriage with all the family surrounding Joseph, Emma basically had to disappear and go get married somewhere else and live apart from Emma's family.

Michelle Stone [03:53:28] Right.

Shawn Delyn [03:53:29] Does that speak to you about Joseph's character at all?

Michelle Stone [03:53:31] Oh, interesting question. See, again, I center Emma. So it actually is kind of a. Interesting question to me where I, like Isaac Hill in some ways, was a jerk is my understanding. I don't, you know, and was kind of like disapproving. I don't think he's the only father that's disapproved of his daughter's choice. And sometimes those judgments are correct, sometimes they're not. But I look at Emma's choice and that she never seemed to second guess, and she was a full partner in everything that they went through. So it would be very, in my opinion, patriarchal to prioritize Isaac Hale's bias over Emma's. Emma Smith's choice, or to paint Emma

Shawn Delyn [03:54:11] as someone that Joseph deluded or absconded

Michelle Stone [03:54:14] with, that she, I mean, yeah, but I just see that as a love match. And I actually love the story that Joseph had to take the right person with him to get the plates and that that was Emma. He thought it was Alvin, but Alvin died and it became Emma. And to me, I really, I just like. I don't like thinking of God as male. I think we need the feminine on every level, everywhere. And I love that God established this church as I see it through a matriarch and a patriarch together united. That's meaningful and important to me.

Shawn Delyn [03:54:50] Okay. And so Isaac Hale as a witness to Joseph's credibility, you wouldn't put much stock in that?

Michelle Stone [03:54:59] I wouldn't necessarily not put much stock in it, but I would put more stock in em.

Shawn Delyn [03:55:03] Got it. Yeah. Good. Okay. As far as the Book of Mormon goes, you know, are you familiar with the mound builder myth? Is that a term you've heard?

Michelle Stone [03:55:13] Is that the, like, North American geography?

Shawn Delyn [03:55:16] It's the idea that. No, no, no, no. It's this well established idea in, let's just say post colonial America that all these wonderful formations and mounds, Indian burial structures, were so impressive that dark, savage Native Americans could never have created them. So there must have been a white skinned version of Native Americans that would do the culturally civilized stuff. Which means that the dark Native Americans must have killed off the white Native Americans.

Michelle Stone [03:55:53] Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [03:55:53] So this and that. They all have ties to Israel. Sort of the view of the Hebrews. But there were probably five or ten different books that had that sort of core Lamanite Nephite narrative that existed as common understanding about trying to explain Native Americans and their origins that predated Joseph Smith. So then when you see them showing up in the Book of Mormon along with like 19th century Protestant theology, the Book of Mormon really starts to look like a 19th century work of Bible fan fiction. That I think even people like Terrell Givens and Richard Bushman and Patrick Mason and other progressive Mormons are now pretty much admitting that the Book of Mormon and then you add the anachronisms, the horses, the steel, the chariots, the rice, the wheat, all the anachronisms and then all the Christian theology. And before Jesus is even born, Lamanites and Nephites are baptizing in the name of Jesus as Christians. You know, Benjamin and Mosiah are giving Protestant sermons. Like there are so many ways that the Book of Mormon just reads like 19th century fan fiction, Bible fan fiction. Are you aware of all that and do you have thoughts of on? Because I know you love the Book of Mormon, but I think objective people looking at it would say looks like fiction. What would you say to that?

Michelle Stone [03:57:22] Sure, I am aware of that. And I've said for a long time that I would never spend time arguing over the historical literacy. Historical. Yeah, what's the word I'm looking for? But yes, the literal history of the Book of Mormon.

Michelle Stone [03:57:37] Right.

Michelle Stone [03:57:38] Any more than I was spend time arguing over the literal existence of Adam and Eve. Right. I don't. The Book of Mormon isn't useful to me as a history lesson of what happened in America. And I have a lot of questions about it. I do. Like, I'm really open and I've gone through periods of my life where I've just kind of shut it away and haven't like I was like, ugh, just leave it alone. You know. But in general, maybe this is an answer. The story of the Good Samaritan is valuable to me, whether it's an allegory or literal. Right. And the story of like Uncle Tom's Cabin was a very foundational book when I read it as a young mom, you know, and so I don't need it to be literal. I know that we have the problems of Joseph Smith Claiming it was literal. And I'm aware of that. I have different ways that I think about that. I can put, you know, to all of these things, I can put my super believing hat on and say all of these other. This is a position I can step into. I'm not saying it's what I believe, but all of these other mound builder myths came because the adversary was trying to confuse. You know what I mean? I know people could go there with it and you could go to. It's a complete fraud on the other end of the spectrum. Right. And I'm just somewhere in the middle because I don't have a good explanation for the Book of Mormon. I know people. It's another one, kind of like children, like Joseph not having children. The existence of the Book of Mormon, I haven't seen a good explanation for. And then, in addition, it just blesses my life. There are beautiful principles and doctrines taught in it that. That have blessed my life. So. So I don't, I don't value it because it's literal historically.

Shawn Delyn [03:59:13] Okay. And so do you have a mind space where you could still be a believing whatever you are, but that the Book of Mormon maybe is not historical? There wasn't really a Moroni or an Alma or a Nephi like that. It could be in your spiritual, religious worldview. The Book of Mormon could be more fable and myth, but inspired fable and myth than an actual historical document. You're open to that?

Michelle Stone [03:59:44] Sure, sure.

Shawn Delyn [03:59:45] You think there's a decent probability, there's some probability that. That I would.

Michelle Stone [03:59:49] If I had to guess, I would say I think that that's what it tends to be. Just like I think that's what Adam and Eve tends to be.

Shawn Delyn [03:59:56] Oh, wow.

Michelle Stone [03:59:58] But I don't want to. I mean, I can hold openings for anything. But as I read it, if I start trying to think about the literal, you know, and then I lose the point. I lose the thread and so.

Shawn Delyn [04:00:11] But also the evidence points you to.

Michelle Stone [04:00:15] I don't want to argue. I don't ever want to be in a position of arguing against strong evidence. It's just, it does not. I refuse to be an apologist. I'm willing to be an advocate. I will not be an apologist.

Shawn Delyn [04:00:26] So for you, the evidence of the Book of Mormon gives you more questions than answers about its historicity, for sure. Okay, that's fine.

Michelle Stone [04:00:32] And I'm okay with that.

Shawn Delyn [04:00:33] Okay, good, good, good.

Michelle Stone [04:00:34] And if people disagree, I'm okay with that. I don't want people to get mad at me on either side.

Shawn Delyn [04:00:38] Okay. So then, you know, quickly, I'm sure you can see how people are like, well, the Book of Mormon, if it's not historical, but Joseph claimed an angel brought in plates and Joseph claimed that those were real characters. That starts for some, gets into fraud territory.

Michelle Stone [04:00:56] Sure.

Shawn Delyn [04:00:57] Then you add the Book of Abraham, where we now have the papyrus that Joseph used to translate the word Abraham isn't anywhere on the papyrus, which then becomes possibly two sets of scripture that Joseph produced with the second really looking like potential fraud. What do you do with the Book of Abraham?

Michelle Stone [04:01:19] Oh, the same thing. These are the conversations I sit with friends and discuss all night. Right. I don't have a settled position on them that I'm comfortable going, oh, oh, this is what it is. And for me it doesn't eliminate the value of it. And so I'm willing again to withhold judgment and go, I don't know exactly the answers on these things, but there are things I love in them.

Shawn Delyn [04:01:43] Yes. So I get the valuing part and I have myth and Uncle Tom's Cabin and yes, Jonathan Steinbeck, all the. Yes, Bible 2. But there is the credibility problem that if Joseph now is producing two potentially fraudulent or fictional scriptures that he alleges are historical and divine, some would say that starts to pick. And then you add to that the folk magic and the treasure digging and the illegal stuff for some, that starts to pick away at Joseph's credibility as being a prophet of God. How do you think about that?

Michelle Stone [04:02:22] Sure, I'm very, very sympathetic to that. I can step into different. This is what is the part I meant. I talk late at night with my husband or my friends about, you know, because I can step into different perspectives. On the one hand, it can be that Joseph was receiving inspired things and believed what he was saying. On the other hand, he could have been telling what is it a benign story for good. It could be. I still, I can't find an explanation for the coming forth of the Book of Mormon without God's involvement somewhere. Like, I haven't seen anything that makes sense to me. So I don't have an explanation that solves any of it for me. So I can't really answer the question other than to say I just withhold judgment because I know the problems. I'm sympathetic to people who are like that problem does it for me. For me, there are other issues that are more important.

Shawn Delyn [04:03:18] Yeah. Okay, so last question. Maybe this will be the last question about non polygamy stuff. Some people are complaining in the chat that I'm asking about non polygamy related stuff. I'm surprised that everyone can't understand why Joseph Smith's just general credibility is at least something to be considered as a contextual element to then look at polygamy. But maybe it's just a rogue comment.

Michelle Stone [04:03:41] Can I maybe just fill in? Because I think what you're doing is try to establish, like, I do want to clarify. This is not because I have Joseph on a pedestal or had Joseph on a pedestal. And so I have to defend that I have. Like, I actually don't agree with everything that Joseph Smith said or wrote and I don't, you know, like, I'm willing to grapple with the troubling aspects of everything. I think polygamy is its own issue that needs to be investigated. I really get frustrated when people say, oh my gosh, even if he didn't do polygamy, still the treasure digging, still the Book of Abraham still there. And, and like, okay, let's adjudicate each of those on their own. Maybe he's guilty of all of those. That doesn't mean he betrayed his wife. That doesn't mean he slept with all the teenage girls. Because I think we can all agree that polygamy is the most malignant, the most, you know, the worst part of what Joseph Smith did. And I think that that deserves to be measured on its own. Even if he did, even if he was guilty in all the other ways, that doesn't mean he did polyg. He originated polygamy.

Shawn Delyn [04:04:37] Okay, I won't belabor any of these more points. But, you know, one of the really interesting things that shocked me was to find out that one of the three Book of Mormon witnesses, David Whitmer, later published a pamphlet where he says that whole Melchizedek priesthood, you know, there is no date. People never maybe stop to think that there's a date for the Aaronic priesthood. There's no date for the Peter, James and John bestowing the Melchizedek priesthood on Joseph and Oliver. And then one of the three Book of Mormon witnesses ends up saying, later, Joseph added that later when he was trying to justify. When he was trying to justify his authority. When you, oh, you look shocked.

Michelle Stone [04:05:21] I haven't presumed that Joseph added it. I think it was added later. But I didn't think it was Joseph that did it. So I would have to study that out. That's a new thought for me. Maybe you're right. I just didn't realize that it was Joseph that added it later. I know it's in Warren Cowdery's Signature. I mean, writing the last entry in that journal. I believe, if I'm recalling. And I know that there are issues with it, but. And it doesn't matter.

Shawn Delyn [04:05:41] You may know more than me.

Michelle Stone [04:05:42] Well, I could be. I don't know.

Shawn Delyn [04:05:44] I guess all I'm saying is, like, one of the three Book of Mormon witnesses upon which the Book of Mormon stands is saying Joseph. That. Let's say, not Joseph, that Melchizedek priesthood stuff was added later. It never was part of the early church, and it was added later to justify something. When you combine that with all the ways Joseph Smith changed, added, changed, edited, deleted versions of that 1835 version of the Doctrine and Covenants and or Book of Commandments and the changes he made to the Book of Mormon and to his first vision story to sort of adjust and synchronize with. With this evolving theology, there's a lot of. Some would say there's a lot of sketchy behavior that you would say that you would sort of accuse Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball and others of doing. Some would say there's a lot of evidence for Joseph, really changing documents, changing revelations, changing narratives, changing the Book of Mormon, changing his first vision story to adapt to challenges or questions. And then in some ways, if Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball and Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Ealing Smith were bad actors, changing stuff and doctoring stuff, they came by it honestly, learning from Joseph. Okay, can you see?

Michelle Stone [04:07:02] Absolutely. I'm very sympathetic to these things. I could turn that back around and say, even with those concerns, David Whitmer still believed in the Book of Mormon. Right. And that. That's another thing to consider is that. And so we can look at that either way. And again, I would need to study all of that much more in depth to be able to speak. I don't like to make positions that I haven't studied for myself. I've read the stuff on it. I've done a lot of the study. But I'm realizing, oh, I need to look into that more because I don't know when that was added. I'm not saying that I don't think Brigham Young added that. I just wondered if it was Warren or somebody else. I didn't know if it was. Was Joseph.

Shawn Delyn [04:07:39] Totally fair. I appreciate you taking those questions. Yeah, this is kind of a slightly different angle, but, like, age of the earth, is it 6,000 years old or billions of years old?

Michelle Stone [04:07:50] Are you really asking me these questions?

Shawn Delyn [04:07:52] I'm just. Because I'm curious.

Michelle Stone [04:07:54] Let me just settle this. I like evidence I like arguments that are based on evidence. I try to not form opinions on things unless I've looked at the evidence. So maybe we can just wrap that whole thing section up with that statement. If there are things that there are strong evidence for, I will. And I feel inspired to dig into them. Maybe I will. But no, I would not say The Bible says 6,000 years, therefore I would never do that. If I got into studying geology and was like, oh, they've got some problems here, then maybe I would consider that. But I've not seen anything that would make me. Do you know what I mean? Like at this point? No, I believe what it looks like there is evidence for.

Shawn Delyn [04:08:34] So like you wouldn't say evolutions of the devil, for example.

Michelle Stone [04:08:38] I would look at the evidence and see what it says. I know that we had church leaders that said that evolution is for the devil. I do have. Maybe I'm exposing myself. I have questions about evolution. I don't think it's quite as locked down as we like macroevolution. I think there are some reasons to have some questions. I haven't studied enough to form a solid opinion. And I actually, I also don't like being like, this is the consensus, therefore it is true. And anyone who disagrees is an idiot or a conspiracy theorist.

Shawn Delyn [04:09:04] Sure. Maybe let me ask you a different way. So the scientific evidence as you interpret it today, maybe, would you agree, points towards billions of years old Earth?

Michelle Stone [04:09:15] Yes.

Shawn Delyn [04:09:15] And that maybe the idea of Adam and Eve as literally the first humans as being.

Michelle Stone [04:09:23] I think I already said this.

Shawn Delyn [04:09:24] You did, you did, you did. But you know, I think for people on my side of the aisle, you may think it's weird that I'm asking you these questions or a global flood that a global flood probably isn't. There's not enough water to cover the whole earth.

Michelle Stone [04:09:37] I don't know that I've deeply studied that one. But I think for all the animals sitting on the boat, yes, I think that we have. I think the Bible and I think scripture is useful to us because of what it teaches us about us, because of the mythology. I mean the. It teaches us. It's designed to teach us about human nature and about connection to God. That's how I interpret scripture, not what it tells us about scientific endeavors.

Shawn Delyn [04:10:02] Well, you may feel insulted by the questions. Trust me, the people on my side. If you want people to view you more credibly and seriously once they know these things about you, I promise you it's going to help. A lot of people want to take you More seriously, because, like, there's the Rod Meldrum group. Not to disparage anyone, but if you're believing that the Earth's core is water and ice, not molten lava, and that the earth is 6,000 years old and that, you know, people are going to tend to dismiss other things, you have to say, sure, if you're a science denier. And so for you to say, I'm not a science denier, I don't know. I don't mean to be.

Michelle Stone [04:10:41] That's helpful.

Shawn Delyn [04:10:41] Obnoxious.

Michelle Stone [04:10:42] That's good. Yeah. I think we can move on from it, though, because I'm not a science engineer.

Shawn Delyn [04:10:46] Thanks for answering my questions. I mean, no insult by it.

Michelle Stone [04:10:50] I'm actually. No, I didn't. I wasn't. Thank you.

Michelle Stone [04:10:52] Thank you for explaining because it is a little bit like, what are you asking me?

Shawn Delyn [04:10:56] Okay, well, I'm very happy to hear those answers. Okay, so let's turn to polygamy now. So the 18, the first, and I don't know anything, I know very little. The first sort of emergence other than the Book of Mormon stuff that you've highlighted about some openness to polygamy, like behaviors that I'm aware of related to Joseph smith is that 1831 revelation to Indians. And I'm going to mask her this, but the idea that Joseph basically said, hey, you Mormon missionaries going out to the frontiers of Missouri, if you happen to have a little Native American concubine on the side while you're out there being a missionary, I'm okay with that. That's my summary of what I understand to be the 1831 Indian revelation that I think the church often references. When you read the church's defense of polygamy, they often mention the year 1831. And I really believe that that's what they, the church, the Mormon Church believes is the first real attempt at Joseph to float the idea of polygamy. Do you have thoughts on that revelation?

Joseph Smith, Fanny Alger, and Dissenting Voices

Michelle Stone [04:12:08] I strongly disagree. But first let me. Well, first let me clarify something because I've seen a lot of comments about, like, the church admits it. How can you deny it? Right. Like, can I just back up and talk about the LDS Church? Because what people I think don't understand is the LDS Church, ever since Brigham Young has had to, they believe I disagree with them, but they have believed that they have to have Joseph Smith be a polygamist in order to justify and validate Brigham Young's polygamy. Right. Like in the temple lock case, the LDS Church was trying to argue that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. That's been their stance. And so saying the LDS Church admits it is not a strong argument at all because I disagree with what the LDS Church says. Also, it's the historians that are giving. That are creating the topics essays that are giving the talking points, the sound bites. Right. And so anyway, I just wanted to clarify that. That saying the church admits it is not at all a good argument for me. Right. I know that the church admits it.

Shawn Delyn [04:13:15] I disagree, of course. Of course. Oh, I totally know that when I ask the question.

Michelle Stone [04:13:19] And the church is very motivated to clean that. And so now I didn't come prepared to discuss specific documents because I thought we weren't getting into them.

Shawn Delyn [04:13:26] No, I meant a general reaction. You have a general.

Michelle Stone [04:13:29] So a general rule of thumb and polygamy.

Michelle Stone [04:13:32] This is kind of.

Michelle Stone [04:13:32] This is what I called our response to your episode. I've gone after others. Sources matter. You can't just say, in 1831, Joseph Smith said, you have to look who made that claim? Where is it written? What are the motivations of that person? How consistent is it? What supporting evidence can we find? Right. You have to dig in and actually critically examine these sources rather than just like, accusations are not fact, claims are not fact.

Shawn Delyn [04:13:57] Sure.

Michelle Stone [04:13:57] Right. You have to adjudicate it critically before just accepting it.

Shawn Delyn [04:14:02] Did you do it, but did you do an episode on this?

Michelle Stone [04:14:04] I haven't done an episode on that yet, but I've touched on it. I just don't have it. Right. I know that there was a FELLOW Letter in 66 that was the 35 claim about the Indians. But if you give me some of these topics, I will come very prepared to discuss them.

Shawn Delyn [04:14:17] And I'm not trying to guide you.

Michelle Stone [04:14:19] Right. It's really important. I don't want to say this is my opinion on it. I want to dig into the documents.

Shawn Delyn [04:14:27] You haven't done that yet with this piece of it?

Michelle Stone [04:14:28] I haven't done that. Well, I've looked into it, but I haven't done an episode on it. And somehow doing an episode gives me more mastery than just looking.

Michelle Stone [04:14:34] For sure.

Shawn Delyn [04:14:35] For sure. Dan writes, The 1831 revelation wasn't about polygamy, but WWE Phelps made it sound like it. That's Dan's answer to my question.

Michelle Stone [04:14:43] Thank you, Dan. Thanks.

Michelle Stone [04:14:44] I wish.

Michelle Stone [04:14:44] I wish I had all of these memorized. I just.

Shawn Delyn [04:14:47] This is me just running stuff by you.

Michelle Stone [04:14:48] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [04:14:49] Like it literally, I'm saying I'll bring up something. Is this something you've dug into? If so, what's your conclusion about it based on your understanding of the evidence. Okay, I'm not trying to, you know,

Michelle Stone [04:15:02] dig into sources like we can do this. I just want you to understand it would be more useful to do it with documents.

Shawn Delyn [04:15:08] Oh, 1,000%. 1,000%. Okay. The next one's Fanny Alger. And you know, as you know, Oliver Cowdery was co president of the church with Joseph at the time. He's one of the scribe to the Book of Mormon, one of the three witnesses. He's saying Joseph Smith was having an affair with a girl living in his home. What have you come to conclude about those accusations based on the evidence?

Michelle Stone [04:15:40] So okay, again I will tell you, but I feel that this is actually not a good way to go about it at all because people can just go, oh my gosh, she's so ridiculous. If I can't show you why, I conclude why what I conclude. But a couple of Cliff's notes I can give you.

Shawn Delyn [04:15:57] I'm sure you've done an episode on Fanny, right?

Michelle Stone [04:15:59] Well, I've done episodes covering elements of it. I haven't yet done the episodes on each of the wives I need to, but I have looked into Fanny quite deeply and actually will be in our next our part two of our response to you. We'll be talking about Fanny so people can look at that. I will say that a lot of the sources we rely on for Fanny are extremely problematic. I am actually shocked that people use William McClellan. It's very surprising to me that historians like unabashedly consider McClellan a good source. And then we have Levi and Mosiah Hancock, very late sources. Right. The Oliver question is a good one. But what you have to realize, the letter that Oliver wrote to the High Council when he was defending himself didn't bring up an affair at all. Didn't bring up adultery. And Oliver never went on to accuse Joseph in those High Council minutes. Joseph, it was just recorded as Joseph explained the girl business. And to me that implies that it was such a non issue. I have my perspective of what it was. It was such a non issue that he just explained it. They were all fine with it. That is evidenced by the fact that several of those High Council members left the church very soon thereafter, including Thomas B. Marsh, who went on to make all of the accusations against Joseph Smith and contributed to the mobbing and the, you know, like Marsh was instrumental in that. He made all kinds of accusations. One accusation he did not make was anything having to do with Fanny or infidelity or adultery. And that's true of Several of the others as well. So, again, it comes down to documents and sources. I have my explanation of what happened with Joseph and Fanny. And I'm a little hesitant to say it here without the documentation because I don't want people to be like, you know, to. To push back when I can't show what I'm talking about. But I.

Shawn Delyn [04:17:49] So it sounds like you're not convinced that Oliver.

Michelle Stone [04:17:54] So here's what I think happened. Fine. I'll just say it. But, John, I'm really mad at you that you're making me come and talk about these things, about documents. But I will do my best.

Shawn Delyn [04:18:02] I think I understand your point, and I think it's valid.

Michelle Stone [04:18:05] Okay.

Michelle Stone [04:18:06] Okay. Because we weren't gonna do sort of. But it's okay. I'll do my best. But I'm asking people to please just be patient and, you know, don't tear me apart. Because I'm just saying it without providing the sources. Right. Because that's what I like to do, is show the sources and then talk about interpretation. But.

Michelle Stone [04:18:23] Okay.

Michelle Stone [04:18:24] Oh, I'm gonna get myself in trouble if I tell this story, I'm afraid.

Shawn Delyn [04:18:28] Okay.

Michelle Stone [04:18:28] I'm just gonna tell it anyway, and people can do with it what they will. But I was actually. My husband and I were going out of town for the first time in many, many, many years. And I was on an airplane for the first time in many years. When you have that many kids, you don't travel. And I was reading a book about. I was reading Whitney Horning's book about Joseph Smith Revealed. And it got to where she was talking about Fanny Alger. And I didn't like the way that she handled it at that time. I think she's changed her perspective where she said it was a ceiling, you know, and that upset me that I'm like, that doesn't make it okay. If Joseph is sealing himself to girls. And Emma's mad. I'm not okay with. Makes me mad. Like, I do not think we can, with a straight face, claim they were having sex. I do not think there's good evidence to say that. Again, McClellan is not a good source. But so I did in the airplane. I just prayed. I was like, God, can you help me understand what happened with Fanny? Because I was so troubled by Fanny. I just like, I can't be okay with Joseph if something happened with Fanny. Even if it was just a sealing. I'm not okay with that.

Shawn Delyn [04:19:32] And also, the sealing power hadn't been given yet.

Michelle Stone [04:19:34] Well, I mean, even for me, in

Shawn Delyn [04:19:38] the Well, I mean, people, by 1835, it came later.

Michelle Stone [04:19:40] Right, right, right, right. You can't. You can't.

Shawn Delyn [04:19:43] He didn't have the part of Seal yet. He didn't have the polygamy revelation yet. If you said he never had it, but, like, certainly it couldn't have happened in 1835.

Michelle Stone [04:19:51] Right. So I'll just to share what happened. But again, I want to clarify. I don't base my opinions on spiritual experiences. I appreciate the inspiration to help me find answers or sources or. Yeah, yeah. Can we please understand that? So I did. I just prayed and I was really upset and kind of desperate, like. Cause I was doing this podcast and people were yelling at me that Joseph Smith wasn't a polygamist. And I was like, yeah, he was. You know, even though it was just a ceiling. Yeah, he was. And so. So I prayed. And while I was praying, a picture came to my mind from my freshman year of college at BYU that I had no idea I even remembered. And it was. It was. We were working on a show called Lucky Stiff. There were three girls. We were the three dancers that played the roles, and we had the pianist. The pianist was a guy. And so we were having a rehearsal, and then after the dance rehearsal, we were over around the piano practicing our vocals and all kind of flirting with the pianist. Right. It's just three girls. We were kind of flirting with this guy. One of the girls was giving him a back rub. We were just, you know, we were working on the music, but it was kind of flirty. And all of a sudden he stiffened up and, like, moved the girl's hands off his shoulders. And we saw him get up and walk over, and his wife had walked in, and none of us had even like. I remember being sick to my stomach going, oh, I had no. Even thought about it. I hope they're okay. Do you know what I mean? Like, I felt very much like this had been inappropriate, but nobody had really realized it. And that came right to my mind. And I was like, I didn't even. I've never thought about that since, you know? And so it gave me an opening to consider a way. And then when I went and investigated those documents, the possibility that Fanny was flirty and that Joseph was maybe being nice to me fits the documentation better than any other argument I have heard. That Emma was like, no, you're out of here. You know, this is not okay. Joseph and Emma worked it out. Joseph went to the High Council and was like, okay, this is what happened. You know, and it was a non issue. And so I had the inspiration to give me a way to consider thinking about it as I went to the evidence. And the evidence seemed to me to back that story matches the evidence better than other evidence than any other story I had considered.

Shawn Delyn [04:22:05] So in that case, Oliver Cowdery would have just jumped to conclusions.

Michelle Stone [04:22:08] Yes, yes. Oliver Cowdery misunderstood, which I think. I can't speak above my pay grade here. I don't know that he later said he misunderstood, but it seems to me quite clear that he did because he didn't continue to make the accusation.

Shawn Delyn [04:22:22] And he did die.

Michelle Stone [04:22:24] I guess he joined the church again. And there are. Oh, see, I can't speak about sources that I can't. But I know I've read about Oliver feeling bad that Joseph didn't reach back out to him and invite him back into the church. Like he kind of always thought the rift would be fixed. Oliver was mad at Joseph for many things. There were many issues. And if you look at the High Council minutes, they were throwing everything at Oliver. They were accusing him of everything. I think counterfeiting it. I can't. I can't remember. But it seems to me that it was kind of a. I'm mad at you, so I'm going to accuse you kind of a culture to some extent as well. And I think Oliver misunderstood that, but also wasn't necessarily that sad to misunderstand it with how mad he was at Joseph. Possibly. I'm. I'm throwing out possibilities. I'd rather go to the documentation and let people see what they think.

Shawn Delyn [04:23:11] Yeah. Okay. All right.

Michelle Stone [04:23:16] So do you want me to talk about McClellan really quickly? Why I say he's not a good source.

Shawn Delyn [04:23:21] Sure.

Michelle Stone [04:23:21] Do you want to just.

Shawn Delyn [04:23:22] I mean. Yeah, that. I mean, I'll just note that, like it. It is common for. I mean, this is a. I'll say. I'll say it this way. This is a trick about doing history. Like it's hard to know people's motivations.

Michelle Stone [04:23:38] Right? It is.

Shawn Delyn [04:23:39] And so that's a tricky thing that oftentimes historians try and stay away from, and critics of the church sometimes flock too, is making assumptions about people's motivations. So it cuts both ways. But also, I think one thing I see a lot in your responses is going to the credibility of the people. If there's a source or a witness or a journal entry, it's common for you to talk about whether they're credible, whether the document's credible, which probably is okay. I mean, that's what we do at a court law Court of law, we would question someone's. A witness's credibility, and we would make sure the evidence was credible. So.

Michelle Stone [04:24:25] Yeah. But.

Shawn Delyn [04:24:25] Yes, please tell us about William McCloud.

Michelle Stone [04:24:27] Well, first.

Michelle Stone [04:24:28] First, I will say this, that good historical practice is you want sources as close to the time and the person as possible, and you should prioritize those sources. So that's one thing that, to me, is goofy. And polygamy, the historians will say, say that. Like that. Keith Erickson, Fireside, he talked at one point about how we want sources that are close to the evidence and that are. That are close to the person and close to the time period. But then he ignores everything we have that is close to the person and close to the time period and prioritizes everything that comes later. And one extra challenge in polygamy is that we do have people who were motivated to tell different stories. So if I were to bring to you Emma's many, many statements about polygamy, people know about her deathbed claim, which they write off as a deathbed claim, which is surprising to me when they. They try to prioritize Sylvia Lyons supposed secondhand deathbed claim. Right. But we have a firsthand deathbed claim from Emma, as well as seven. Seven published interviews that she gave about polygamy, plus many other things as well. And we.

Shawn Delyn [04:25:29] Denies it. Denies it, Denies it.

Michelle Stone [04:25:31] She says the first time she ever saw the revelation was in Orson Pratt's the Seer. She is very logical, consistent. Right. And it's easy to see consistency in her, and it is consistent with what we find in Nauvoo. So it's shocking to me that everyone just goes, oh, Emma was lying, and we just write her off. But then all of these really problematic sources that are, I would say, more motivated than Emma, at least as motivated, we go. And with people who have a longer track record of lying for the Lord or saying what needs to be said for the kingdom, whatever it might be, we're like, no, those things are all true. Emma was lying. Joseph III was lying. Joseph Smith was lying. Hyrum was lying. And we come to that, like, from the outset. We make up our mind before we come to the evidence. So when you say that I'm questioning the credibility of sources, I would be like, yes, and so are you. And we should. And I would say the sources that I'm questioning have less credibility than the sources that you're throwing out from my perspective. Perspective.

Shawn Delyn [04:26:23] And so McClellan is not credible because. Too late.

Michelle Stone [04:26:26] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [04:26:26] Yeah. No.

Shawn Delyn [04:26:27] Okay.

Michelle Stone [04:26:27] I could. I. I should probably show the Documents, if I go into him. So he. So we have published in. Oh, I can't remember if it's the Deseret news, but that McClellan, while Joseph was in prison, he raided Emma's barn and robbed her house. And that he also, while Joseph was in chains in prison, he asked the jailer if he could beat. If he could beat Joseph. And the jailer said, only if it's a fair fight and Joseph can beat back. And then he said he wouldn't be willing to. Joseph wrote a harsh letter that included McClellan. Right. But then after all of that, we claim that McClellan went and visited Emma and she bore her soul to him and told him things that she didn't tell anybody else, and he gets the names wrong. And then also we have a newspaper where McClellan published that he was. What he was going to get from Emma, and he doesn't say anything. It comes up later in his letters to Joseph Smith iii. So there are many reasons that I'm just like, why are we giving. First of all, McClellan is secondhand from Emma. Right. And a very troubled and troubling source. And we have other documentation to show that he's not credible. We throw out everything that Emma actually says, but believe emma's voice through McClellan. That bothers me, ma'.

Shawn Delyn [04:27:38] Am. Okay. Thanks for explaining that.

Michelle Stone [04:27:41] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [04:27:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm just gonna say, like, I know you're probably. I really respect that historians focus on source documents, and I know that that's the best place to have these conversations. It's also a real problem with helping educate the masses because there's a lot of people that just are never going to be able to have time or the luxury or the privilege to dig into the primary source sources. So while I don't expect anybody to form a solid opinion based on your summary of what you gathered from the sources, there's massive value in people hearing a Dan Vogel, or forgive me for saying a Michelle Stone to hear what your. You know, what your summary is. But if people are going to then use this episode to try and hang you, I will condemn that right now and say that's garbage. I'm putting her in this position. Be charitable and engage her with the primary sources. Don't draw any conclusions on anything we say today. Anything I say? Anything you say. Believe the source documents. I think you would agree, right?

Michelle Stone [04:28:55] Absolutely.

Shawn Delyn [04:28:55] Don't believe Michelle Stone. Don't believe John Dehlin. Don't believe Dan Vogel. I think Dan would agree with this. Believe the source documentation.

Michelle Stone [04:29:01] I Hope so. Yes. Thank you for saying that again. I appreciate it.

Shawn Delyn [04:29:04] Okay, good. Because I still think it's valuable to hear your conclusions even if we don't have the documents right in front of us.

Michelle Stone [04:29:10] Sure, sure.

Shawn Delyn [04:29:11] Okay.

Michelle Stone [04:29:11] Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [04:29:13] Yeah. Okay. All right. So. I had this question. Before we get to John C. Bennett, this question came up for me. If somebody said to you, Michelle, like, three of Joseph's relationships, regardless of where you are, on the credibility of the scandals, Michelle, three of Joseph Smith's relationships with you could argue his closest counselors, Oliver Cowdery, John C. Bennett, and William Law, ended in rumors of sexual scandal.

Michelle Stone [04:29:54] Absolutely.

Shawn Delyn [04:29:55] Is that, like, what do you do with that? You know, a lot of people will. And again, I have personal experiences of defamation where, like, I know how I would answer this if somebody said to me, where there's smoke, there's fire, as it relates to my life. Not that I claim to be perfect in any way, but, like, if somebody says to you, come on, Oliver Cowdery, John C. Bennett. Okay, you don't like John C. Bennett as a source. He certainly is probably the most biggest scoundrel. Even if you hate Joseph Smith, you have to acknowledge that John C. Bennett's worse than Joseph Smith. John C. Bennett, Oliver Cowdery. Even if you hate John C. Bennett, you still have to acknowledge Oliver Cowdery, one of the three witnesses inscribed in the Book of Mormon, and then William Law, they all had relationships with Joseph that ended in allegations of sexual scandal. Where there's smoke, there's fire. What would you say to that?

Michelle Stone [04:30:46] First of all, I'm glad that you pointed out that accusations do not equal reality. Right. And that's something we need to take seriously. We've already discussed Oliver Cowdery and then William Law is an interesting one. And again, it's getting into the Nauvoo Expositor, the accusations that he actually makes, what evidence he actually has is not. So when I did, I still have one at least episode to do on the Navajo Expositor, if not two. And that's where it'll be. Get to the juicy stuff. I got derailed by that by doing my episodes on other topics. It's just a lot to try to get done. So I'm sorry for anyone that I haven't finished my Nauvoo Expositor episodes. They will be coming. Actually, this is what I should say. So the Journal of Mormon Polygamy is actually doing a full edition on the high council, the August 1843 high council, which leads to the Nauvoo Expositor. And we will have different perspectives all published together so people can really dig in and get a broad understanding of that. So I think that's very useful to mention that people will want to pay attention to as soon as that comes out. But there's a scripture that actually people might not think this is interesting, but it is interesting to me. And one thing, what I was going to say when I did the Nava Expositor, I realized that Joseph did not choose counselors in the way of the most righteous man. He did it kind of like a presidency. And, and William Law was somebody who had a lot of property, had a lot of land, kind of had a, maybe a different faction that he could bring in. And so Joseph was kind of making a coalition with his is how it

Shawn Delyn [04:32:15] appears to me oftentimes his talent and experience and skills and assets. Right?

Michelle Stone [04:32:20] Yes, very much.

Shawn Delyn [04:32:21] I mean, modern day Mormon general authorities aren't always farmers and teachers, school teachers, they're lawyers and successful rich businessmen. Right. Cause they're running a multi billion dollar corporation.

Michelle Stone [04:32:34] Right, right. And that's I think similar to what it was, was like, oh, we can be kind of the useful people to lead this society.

Michelle Stone [04:32:42] Yeah, it's kind of.

Michelle Stone [04:32:44] Well, I don't want to say in a demeaning way, but yeah, creating. You're trying to build a city and a church. So yeah, get competent people with clout and assets. That would be great.

Shawn Delyn [04:32:52] I think managers are crucial.

Michelle Stone [04:32:53] Okay. Okay.

Shawn Delyn [04:32:54] Yeah. I don't mean that manager is a pejorative at all.

Michelle Stone [04:32:56] Okay, good.

Michelle Stone [04:32:57] That's good to know. And so, and also, so it's interesting, like there are. See, I want people to also realize I'm answering your questions that are pushing me on the best evidence for your side and the hardest for me to answer. What we are neglecting are all of the things I could press you on to say. How do you explain this? How do you explain this? So I just want people to know that we are. This is a really big. This isn't meant as an insult, but it's a really big home court advantage.

Shawn Delyn [04:33:18] Right.

Michelle Stone [04:33:18] Where I'm just answering the hardest sources and the hardest charges, if that makes sense.

Shawn Delyn [04:33:23] Yeah, you're in the hot seat. You're in the hot seat.

Michelle Stone [04:33:25] And there's another, there are other conversations we could have that would put someone with your perspective in the hot seat. Yeah, yeah. I don't, I wouldn't.

Michelle Stone [04:33:31] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [04:33:31] A historian with your perspective in the hot seat.

Shawn Delyn [04:33:33] Right. I'm not a historian.

Michelle Stone [04:33:34] So.

Michelle Stone [04:33:34] And so.

Shawn Delyn [04:33:35] So Dan Vogel in the hot seat.

Michelle Stone [04:33:36] Yes, yes, yes. I Have asked and asked.

Shawn Delyn [04:33:39] Were you about to say, I'd love to have Dan on the hot seat?

Michelle Stone [04:33:41] No, not necessarily on the hot seat. I just have. I've really wanted him to come and engage. He makes a lot of comments, but I would love him to come and talk back and forth instead of just doing a response. That feels very safe. I would love for you to have a conversation.

Shawn Delyn [04:33:54] She's saying, talk to me, don't talk about me. Dan Vogel. So there it is. I will say from ex Mormons, totally secular Joseph Smith disrespecting historians. They were really disappointed at Brian Hale's engagement with you when y' all had your discussion that he did not engage you in a way that even secular, non Joseph Smith believing historians would have loved a true historian to engage you with.

Michelle Stone [04:34:24] Anyway, thank you.

Michelle Stone [04:34:24] I appreciate that.

Michelle Stone [04:34:25] And especially because he came under false pretenses. He was supposed to come and discuss is polygamy of God and then is polygamy of Joseph Smith and instead he had a different PowerPoint.

Shawn Delyn [04:34:34] It's almost like a worthiness interview.

Michelle Stone [04:34:36] I know.

Shawn Delyn [04:34:36] Like, do you.

Michelle Stone [04:34:37] Should you.

Shawn Delyn [04:34:38] Is it. Are you an apostasy?

Michelle Stone [04:34:39] Right.

Shawn Delyn [04:34:40] Isn't that how it evolved?

Michelle Stone [04:34:41] And you know what really, really frustrates me that I hope we can find our way through is that there is a coalition of people, polygamists or members of fundamentalist groups posing as members of the church, as well as very pro polygamy church members who are actively trying to manipulate ecclesiastical decisions. And what really bothers me is I feel like they want to win on unfair terms instead of engaging with the evidence. They just want to see me excommunicated so they can say, see, we were right all along. And I hope that. I hope that. I hope that that won't happen. But even if it were to, I hope that people could see through it and see that that is not a winning argument. Right. I mean, I know that that might be easier for people in your community, but I hope that people in my community could see that as well.

Michelle Stone [04:35:31] Me too.

Michelle Stone [04:35:32] So really, I like this scripture and people can do with it what they will. But in doctrine and covenants, 1037, Joseph is told that he cannot always judge the righteous as you cannot always tell the wicked from the righteous. So he's told that in, in that verse. And I think that that's actually interesting that he. Joseph Smith. And I, I'm sympathetic to this because I tend to do the same thing. I've learned that I am really sincere and I tend to project my sincerity onto other people. And that sometimes gets me in trouble.

Shawn Delyn [04:36:02] Me, too.

Michelle Stone [04:36:03] Okay. And I believe that that's what Joseph Smith did. Right. But some of the things we can look at is the fact that Joseph actually sued in a court of law, Francis Higbee for. Oh, I think it was Francis for the allegations that he was making of infidelity and polygamy. And if you're going to sue someone, that opens you up to discovery, it's very unlikely for someone who is guilty to sue. And if you go and look at the actual claims that Law made, he didn't have much evidence at all about Joseph's, like, law got mad. And I think it was mainly over financial things. If you look at the evidence. And then again, what is the thing to accuse Joseph Smith of after Bennett's letters have come out, after this whole, like, oh, let's build on this polygamy narrative, which, if you read the Expositor, it seems to me is what he's doing. And so. And then we can look to Bennett. And I do think that Bennett was a bit a. Of. Of a scoundrel, to say the least. And anyway, we could talk about Bennett another day, because that's a bit of a discussion.

Shawn Delyn [04:36:56] But you're saying that even a prophet of God cannot be the best judge of people and can be fooled by bad people.

Michelle Stone [04:37:04] Why would we think otherwise? Right. And I will just say about Bennett, the question that I've kind of used as shorthand recently is I would like it if someone could show me evidence to show that Bennett's accusations or the, oh, what's the Buckeyes Lament or any of those other accusations are more likely to be insider, literal information, legitimate information, rather than rumors that are even either being spread or created. And I think that's important to consider. Right. Because we know that Bennett was, you know, apt to spread rumors and just using the first initials, not naming any actual women. And, you know, it's just like, I think when we hold it in the balance of all. All of the other evidence, it really pales in comparison. It's not nearly a solid solid of evidence as the evidence that I look to.

Shawn Delyn [04:37:50] That's fair. Do you. Do you have a sense for why, you know, the 1835 DNC has Section 101 denouncing polygamy, but it says something about giving rise to the rumors that there's polygamy going on?

Michelle Stone [04:38:04] This church has been accused.

Shawn Delyn [04:38:05] Do you know why there were rumors that polygamy is going on in the church in 1835?

Michelle Stone [04:38:11] Well, I would need to Dig into this deeper. But this is my strong understanding at this point. I don't think that was an uncommon accusation. There were.

Shawn Delyn [04:38:18] Or any church.

Michelle Stone [04:38:19] Yeah, well, these kind of gatherings. You know, this was right after the restaurant. What was it called?

Michelle Stone [04:38:24] The.

Michelle Stone [04:38:24] Sorry, my head is starting to get a little.

Shawn Delyn [04:38:26] There were other polygamists.

Michelle Stone [04:38:28] Yeah. Like, we had just had the Cochraneites, and we had the. We had other groups that were playing the Great Awakening. The Great Awakening, yes. And then we had these different groups, the Oneidas, the Shakers, that, you know. And there were also groups emerging in England. It seemed that this was kind of a.

Shawn Delyn [04:38:43] So polygamy is breaking out. Lots of places.

Michelle Stone [04:38:44] Polygamy is breaking out. And if you want to accuse a new church that you don't like, that is not an uncommon accusation. You know, like, just like people accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist or a flat earther because they assume that I must be if I make these accusations. So if they're a new branch and they bug us and we don't like them, then we'll accuse them of that. I see more evidence for that, definitely, than evidence that there was any polygamy going on.

Shawn Delyn [04:39:08] As far as the fanny stuff contributing to that.

Michelle Stone [04:39:10] Well, you would have to show me who got information about the fanny stuff and started making those accusations in 1835. Right. Like we would. It's easy to just. It's easy for us to, afterwards, with our bias in mind, lump things together, but that's not necessarily a great way to find what actually happened.

Shawn Delyn [04:39:26] Okay. Okay. So jumping back to John C. Bennett, I'm just curious about your theory. So, clearly you would agree that John C. Bennett was engaging in sexual predation, spiritual wifery.

John C. Bennett, Brigham Young, and Polygamy's Origins

Michelle Stone [04:39:40] I think that's pretty well found, well validated in the documents.

Shawn Delyn [04:39:44] Do you think, like, Brigham Young and Heber C. Were engaging that early during the John C. Do you think that it was bigger than just John C. Bennett in that sort of, what, 1841, 1842 timeframe? Do you think it was more than just John C. Bennett, or was it just. Was he the author? Was he the atom?

Michelle Stone [04:40:05] No.

Shawn Delyn [04:40:05] Of spiritual wifery in the Mormon movement?

Michelle Stone [04:40:10] Not in my opinion at all.

Shawn Delyn [04:40:11] What would be your opinion be of who was the originator?

Michelle Stone [04:40:14] Well, I don't know that it's an originator. John C. Bennett came to Nauvoo in order to predate women. Right. In order to be a predator? Well, he had a wife and narcissist. I mean, psychopaths, whatever we want to call him, need to flee once they burn all the bridges and go get a new start. This was a great place for him to come and pose and make a great start. When the claims came that he had a wife that he had left, Joseph launched an investigation. Right. So he wasn't a good guy from the beginning. And he came with, I don't know. I don't know what. Anyway, like, I think it would be a mistake to say that everything grew out of John C. Bennett starting it. We do have evidence, strong evidence actually, of things happening in England in 41:42, when the apostles were there. There's actually some very strong evidence. I have a friend who's doing good work on this right now that's going to be presenting at the Journal of Mormon Polygamy Conference that we can show. Brigham Young, multiple times throughout his life, claimed that he had the revelation in England before John about it. He knew it for himself in England before coming home and claiming that Joseph told him in 1842. We have also letters and journals and like, we have evidence that we. William Clayton's England journals show all kinds of. I don't know what you would call it, spiritual fol. Dereal. Spiritual adultery happening in England before they came and claimed that Joseph taught it to them. So I was actually talking to a friend about this the other day because. Because I don't have it nailed down at this point exactly the timeline and where it came from and, you know, but what we. Like. I was kind of like, it is interesting to see these overlaps, but also, I don't think they were all in the same group. I think it was just kind of a thing that was happening with different people.

Shawn Delyn [04:41:51] So, like, in your theory of what may have happened, it seems like, as I've.

Michelle Stone [04:41:55] As I said. Sorry, I just wanted to point in, as I said, polygamy was growing in England as well, independently. So while the apostles were there, like it was. It didn't have to have a sink. It's kind of like someone doesn't have to teach a man to commit adultery. Yeah, right.

Shawn Delyn [04:42:08] But to claim it's of God is a different thing.

Michelle Stone [04:42:11] Yeah. And we do see that starting. I thought it was so interesting when I saw in the back of Brigham Young's England journal, written upside down, it says, questions to ask Joseph, question to ask Joseph. It talks about children who die, and it says, was David a man after God's own heart. That was interesting to me. I don't know if I'm interpreting that correctly, but it sure seems like it could be interpreted as Brigham trying to make his Claim. Planning to make his claim to Joseph. To convert Joseph.

Shawn Delyn [04:42:37] Okay. Okay. So, you know, in what I've. What I've listened to of your YouTube channel, it seems like Brigham Young and Heber C. Are kind of the OG Bad guys, in your mind. Is that fair to say?

Michelle Stone [04:42:52] Well, the Godfather, because I did an episode called the Godfathers of Mormon Polygamy. Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [04:42:56] And who are the godfathers of Mormon Polygamy?

Michelle Stone [04:42:58] Yeah. Well, I think Brigham Young, Hebrew C. Kimball. I think Willard Richards was right in there. I think William Clayton was, like, the ultimate wannabe. He really wanted to be included, but no one really liked him, but he was involved.

Shawn Delyn [04:43:09] Okay, so in your. And do you have a sense. So they're what, 1840, 1841, 1842. They're starting these 1842, 1843, for sure.

Michelle Stone [04:43:18] And there were others, like, I haven't fit. I think it's Turley in. He was an early polygamist, and there's more work being done that is coming out.

Shawn Delyn [04:43:25] But in your view, they're the ones that start the polygamy shenanigans and just Joseph doesn't know about it.

Michelle Stone [04:43:32] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [04:43:33] I don't want to overstate and say it was just them or it was, but we do have Brigham and Heber claiming to different people that Joseph had a revelation even before 1843. Right. Like Brigham. Brigham claimed to Augusta Cobb. Brigham claimed. They both claimed to Martha Brotherton. Like, I have. I've tracked down several sources of people claiming there was a revelation from Joseph.

Michelle Stone [04:43:55] Right.

Michelle Stone [04:43:55] So I do think that they were highly involved. And I don't know. I don't know that they were the original. I can't say that yet. But they were the ones who emerged as the leaders afterwards, so it's the easiest to track theirs earlier.

Shawn Delyn [04:44:08] So for you, Brigham and he claiming that there was a revelation from Joseph about polygamy isn't a suggestion that it started with Joseph and that Joseph gave some sort of permission. It's that they were making stuff up and trying to pin their sin and their evil on Joseph as a justification or as permission?

Michelle Stone [04:44:37] Yes. I don't think they had enough clout to have their own revelation that they would carry out. So they. This was the path they wanted to pursue, and blaming it on Joseph or saying Joseph did it validated it for the people that they wanted to convince in my. In my model.

Shawn Delyn [04:44:54] Okay. Okay. So. But you see, you see Brigham and Hebrewsy as kind of the ringleaders.

Michelle Stone [04:45:01] Yeah. Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Again, I don't want to speak past What I could. You know, I don't want to right now.

Shawn Delyn [04:45:06] That's your theory?

Michelle Stone [04:45:07] Yeah. Yeah. And I would want to get in and see. I haven't done enough research to see who else might have been involved early, but from what I have seen so far, I would say that Brigham and Heber and I. And I'd put Willard Richards in there too, because he became Joseph's scribe and you know, that becomes important.

Shawn Delyn [04:45:23] And then John C. Bennett.

Michelle Stone [04:45:24] Well, John C. Bennett's journals are. Yeah. Like they're a big problem.

Shawn Delyn [04:45:28] I'm also an OG if he's in 1842.

Michelle Stone [04:45:31] Oh, yeah. He was for sure. Like if you read his England journals, it is unquestionable. We have. So my friend Whitney found a journal of Heber C. Kimball's that there's a ton of foot washing and hair combing and spending nights together. And you know, with women there are lots of shenanigans looking things. And there's one page that is just fascinating that it says washed our feet and went to bed. And went to bed is scratched out. Right. That's just one example of things we can find in the England. In the England materials that I think should be that I think have not been addressed by the standard narrative and

Shawn Delyn [04:46:11] that all these og. Polygamous shenanigans were happening and Joseph wasn't aware.

Michelle Stone [04:46:16] I think. Well, we have evidence. We have strong evidence that Hyrum was trying to root it out. They were aware it was happening. They were to trying. Trying to root it out. They knew that this was a problem. I don't think they automatically knew everyone who was involved.

Shawn Delyn [04:46:30] So. Yeah. Because if Brigham and Heber maintained Joseph's support to the end, that would mean that either Joseph looked leniently on their shenanigans or he didn't know about their shenanigans.

Michelle Stone [04:46:45] Yeah. I don't think it's as unlikely as people tried to claim that he didn't know this was not a. I mean, if you think about how much time Joseph spent in hiding, how busy he was, people always say he didn't have time to sleep with his wives, he was too busy. And yet we think he had time to know everything that was going on in other people's private lives, there's not. There's not evidence that Brigham Young was at all close to Joseph Smith in 1842, when Joseph has that meeting on the island when he's in hiding and he has people there that he speaks so highly of. Brigham's not there. You can't connect Brigham closely to Joseph Smith. We do have a source, and it's William Smith, and he's complicated. So, you know, but it's a source to consider at least where William, at a breakfast at the end of Joseph's life, told them that, or I don't know if William told them or if he heard Joseph say, I would need to read it again to refresh my memory, but that Brigham and Heber are involved in polygamy. And Joseph said, ah, as soon as I get done dealing with these problems, I'll take care of that, and I'm gonna have problems with Brigham is what that source claims. And so. And then we have Hyrum writing something. We have a letter from. Oh, my gosh. See, this is why I need to look over my sources so I can be more fresh. Also, I'm sick, so I'm a little fuzzy brain, so forgive me if I can't remember the details as well. But we have a letter from. I want to say it's Willard Richards to Brigham Young, but it might be William Clayton to Brigham Young or someone else saying that Hyrum is trying to set a trap to catch the men of the secret priesthood. What should we do? Right. And there are a lot of sources like this that, if they are included in the histories, are not really taken seriously enough, in my opinion. So I think we have strong evidence to show that Joseph and Hyrum were trying desperately to root it out.

Shawn Delyn [04:48:27] Yeah, you've mentioned this in terms of the. When John C. Bennett writes his Tell all, he lists initials of alleged wives of Joseph Smith that correspond to names that now the church claims are women who were legitimately sealed to Joseph Smith. So some people say that successfully implies Joseph. And I heard you respond once, saying something about if magicians can make it look like a woman is cut in half.

Michelle Stone [04:49:06] Yeah, yeah, I answer differently, but go ahead.

Shawn Delyn [04:49:10] No, no, no, no, no. Do your answer now.

Michelle Stone [04:49:11] Yeah, I shouldn't have done. I did that episode responding to rfm and I tried to fit too many things in, and I hadn't done as much research as I've done now. So people should know about my podcast. It's as I've been going. I study something deeply and then put it out. So I can't necessarily. If anyone wants to point out something I've said and say I disagree with you, then I would love to, like, go, oh, that's a really good point. Or I disagree with you because of this. I don't want people to cherry pick something and say, she's totally fair. So What I will say is we actually have evidence that the historians, the polygamist historians, had John C. Bennett as a source. They include the happiness letter. The only source we have for that is John C. Bennett. That he published it. Right.

Michelle Stone [04:49:51] So.

Michelle Stone [04:49:51] So if they are, I don't know

Shawn Delyn [04:49:52] if that's true, but I'll take your word for it.

Michelle Stone [04:49:54] Okay. Okay, well. And it says William Richards instead of Willard Richards wrote it, and it comes from John C. Bennett. And so we. So I don't. And then also, we know, like, I just had an exchange with Dan Vogel either last night or this morning talking about Benjamin F. Johnson. And Dan even said that Benjamin was. I mean, that we know he was using the journals and histories to create his affidavit and to create his narrative. I was like, exactly, exactly. Right. So the fact that they like it really is concerning. But they really needed Joseph Smith to be a polygamist. So even if the accusations came from an enemy, how would John C. Bennett have insider information? If he was a polygamy insider, as Brian Hales want to call them, why wouldn't Joseph was. We have all of these claims that Joseph was, like, forcing men to take extra wives and pushing them into polygamy. So if John C. Bennett was this polygamous insider, why wouldn't he have been told to take other wives? Right. And if he wasn't a polygamy insider, if that even existed, why would he have this information that nobody else had? And why would we put so much credibility into him? I think it's much more likely, and I think we can show that the Utah polygamists were using prior sources to create their narratives and their affidavits. Some people might disagree with that, but I don't. I think it'd be hard to say that absolutely is not the case. So.

Shawn Delyn [04:51:11] So for you, the fact that John C. Bennett lists initials of wives that he believes Joseph Smith was having, was marrying, that now the LDS Church lists with corresponding initials were, in fact, according to the LDS Church, Joseph's plural wives.

Michelle Stone [04:51:32] I find that deeply, deeply sad and troubling. I think we're so still following the Brigham Young narrative. And I don't want to call it just the Brigham Young narrative, the polygamy narrative, that was Joseph F. Smith even more, you know, And I think that it deserves to be reinvestigated people, because

Shawn Delyn [04:51:48] some of these women are the ones that later their names are associated with

Michelle Stone [04:51:51] the affidavits, but there are many that are not. Louisa Beaman never did an affidavit. She's L.B. agnes Smith never did an affidavit, and even Ina denied it. Right. And we. And what am I trying to say? Oh, she's as. Also, we would need to say, why is Bennett using initials instead of names?

Michelle Stone [04:52:12] He's using.

Shawn Delyn [04:52:13] It could be to protect the confidentiality.

Michelle Stone [04:52:15] Right. But he's not into that. Right. There are other names that he uses. So it's. I mean, it is something that has to be argued back and forth. But I think that there are. Again, if you look just at what we're doing right now, where I'm just arguing against John Bennett, people might go, you're ridiculous. But what I would want to do is bring the rest of the body of evidence to the conversation and say what is more likely to be a credible source. I think that it is more likely that John C. Bennett was spreading and. Or creating rumors and accusations against Joseph.

Shawn Delyn [04:52:47] Okay.

Michelle Stone [04:52:48] That were then later utilized by the Church.

Shawn Delyn [04:52:51] Okay.

Michelle Stone [04:52:52] Despite the women never having a voice in that.

Shawn Delyn [04:52:54] Okay. And to the question why Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball weren't excommunicated, you would say at the same time as John C. Bennett, you would say it's because Joseph didn't know.

Michelle Stone [04:53:05] I think it was trying. Yeah. I think he was trying to keep. I mean, I don't think that's unreasonable. I don't think, like, people can keep secrets from you. You could say the same thing about a president of a company. How could you have your vice president embezzling and you don't know. Right. Like, people can keep secrets and it's not. It's not. Yeah. In your world, it's not that surprising.

Shawn Delyn [04:53:25] Okay. Okay. I'm gonna. If it's okay, I'm gonna ask your forgiveness ahead of time. For one thing, I kind of really want to talk about the Navu Expositor as really the only thing I'm going to talk about in depth. Not to try and, like, put you on the spot. I'm going to relate to you my superficial understanding, just spending a few days trying to understand the details. And I think it would. If anything, I think it's going to invite our viewers and listeners to want to investigate the sources because I think it's a fascinating discussion. And to me, I think. And I have to give credit to rfm. I watched his. You know, I did an episode with him about the Nauvoo Expositor, and I went back and listened to his episode where he responds to you called no man, that's not history where he talks about it. But I think of all the ways to talk about whether or not Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. I think if there was a silver bullet, I think most of the people that I talk to would say it's the Navajo Expositor. So can I share with you how I read the source documents that I've reviewed and then just have you kind of respond to it?

Michelle Stone [04:54:41] Yeah. Do you have like an Advil or a Tylenol in the mean?

Shawn Delyn [04:54:44] Yes, yes, yes, yes. So absolutely. Get some water. There is Advil over there near the kitchen. Let me read out some super chats really quick. Get some water. It's okay. Get some water. Go get some snacks. Get an Advil. Take a nap. I will read a few of the super chats because you've been a real smart sport. Oh, my gosh, we're five hours in. Oh, I didn't realize the time had gone that fast. Okay, well, maybe we'll end. I don't want to end on the Nava Expositor, but I do want to cover it. And then I want to end on some personal things, just about how you're feeling and. And about church discipline and that sort of thing. And we'll just say we'll do it another time. But let me just read a few super chats while you're taking an Advil. I feel bad. Thanks to Boyd, Boyd K for his super chat. Let me just read a couple more. Cheryl. Bruno. Hey, Cheryl. She says, John, I really appreciate you clarifying points that are hazy. This is a lot of information in a short period of time. Good job. Thanks, Cheryl. Cheryl and I go way back. We go back, I want to say, to like 2005, 2006. So it's really fun to reconnect with you, Cheryl. And I know that these are tricky kind of things to navigate, but it's fun to reengage with you, Cheryl. I hope to re. Engage with you more. Rivercrest Lodging says, I hope she finds peace. So much trauma on so many levels. It's hard for me to follow her thinking, but it's easy for me to feel her sincere pain and I would say her sincerity and her command of the knowledge of the. Of the data. So anyway, thanks for that super chat. Donnie Lee Gringo says, how does she decide which apostles, prophets, seers are lying and which ones are telling you the truth on any topic? I don't expect you to answer that, but I'm just going to read it out and you could address that later if you want. I want to get through these. Riley Hyatt writes. What's her interpretation of the Happiness letter. I think you answered that. I think. Think you think it's tainted by John C. Bennett being associated with it. Is that right?

Michelle Stone [04:56:51] Yes. I can't say for sure if it comes from Willard Richards or just John C. Bennett, but it comes through many hands before we should attribute it to Joseph Smith.

Shawn Delyn [04:57:00] Okay. Another B asks, what's the harm in believing Joseph Smith practices polygamy? I think she's basically saying, what's wrong with non monogamy?

Michelle Stone [04:57:10] What's wrong with believing that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy?

Shawn Delyn [04:57:13] What's wrong with non monogamy? Polygamy, Polyandry. Oh, she's asking, like, inherently immoral.

Michelle Stone [04:57:18] Yes.

Shawn Delyn [04:57:19] About. And we can get to that.

Michelle Stone [04:57:21] Polygamy is very, very abusive to women. It dehumanizes women. It's. It's the equivalent in, in my book, it's the equivalent of a form of slavery. It's just gender based instead of race based.

Michelle Stone [04:57:33] It.

Michelle Stone [04:57:33] It does the same thing. It turns humans into property for the benefit of others that want to control them for their own good. And I think that it should be decried if people want to come up with their own systems of marriage. You know, I'm quite traditional in my beliefs, but polygamy, Mormon polygyny is different than even just than other systems.

Shawn Delyn [04:58:01] Yeah, I'm not a fan of polygamy either. And then Shkye786 says, thank you so much for doing this. Love you guys. Okay.

Michelle Stone [04:58:11] Oh, that was nice.

Shawn Delyn [04:58:13] All right, well, yes, thank you for that super chat as well. So, yeah, is it okay if we do just like a little more?

Michelle Stone [04:58:22] Yeah, we'll try. Yep.

Shawn Delyn [04:58:23] Okay. You're such a great sport. I thought we were three to four hours, not five. So.

Michelle Stone [04:58:29] Yeah, I wish I. I wish I had hadn't gotten sick yesterday. So I'm doing my best.

Shawn Delyn [04:58:33] All right, well, we'll try.

Michelle Stone [04:58:35] Yep.

The Nauvoo Expositor and D&C 132 Problems

Shawn Delyn [04:58:37] I want to talk to you about Nauvoo Expositor. And then I just want to ask you some more personal questions just about how you're doing, about possible church discipline, about that sort of thing. So I'll, I'll just. So I'll just share with you what I learned, if that's okay. So, so I start, I started by going to the novel Expositor. And you know, I hear the affidavits. The affidavit, there's three affidavits. So go ahead and look at the affidavits. And I read them and it's William Law, his wife. And then the third affidavit is Austin Cowles, which is a name I would have never even known, believe it or not, even though I've read it before, I forgot it. So I'm like, Austin Cowles. Okay, interesting. And then I read those three affidavits, and I listen to RFM's episode, which basically says, there you have it. In a printed newspaper. The main tenets of Doctrine and covenants, Section 132, including many of the elements that I think you would say were added by Brigham Young later. The latter parts of D&C132.

Michelle Stone [04:59:45] No, it's the first verse, too.

Shawn Delyn [04:59:47] No, no. The first and the last. But I'm just saying you could argue that most of the main substantive elements to the entire D&C 132 can be found written in the Nauvoo Expositor between these three affidavits in print before Joseph Smith dies. Before, you could sort of allege that Brigham Young came later and added a bunch of stuff like, I think it's reasonable to argue that the meat of D&C132 can be found in these three affidavits in print in the Nauvoo Expositor before Joseph Smith dies. Okay. That's what I concluded. Now, RFM led me to that. But then I went and read the source documents, and I read through each of the three statements, and I'm like, yeah, the spirit. The comprehensive spirit of DNC132 to me, is reflected in those three affidavits in print in what, April of 1844? June of 1844. Okay, you. I've seen you kind of look up a little bit. Are you. So far. Are you kind of trying to.

Michelle Stone [05:00:50] Right.

Michelle Stone [05:00:50] I understand the argument. This is the strongest argument on your side.

Shawn Delyn [05:00:53] Okay. Okay.

Michelle Stone [05:00:54] I agree. It doesn't. It's. I want to clarify. It's not evidence that Joseph had sex with women or that he practiced, but it is. No, I'm not claiming that it is evidence that Joseph Smith brought forth a revelation on polygamy. So I would agree with that, that it's the strongest claim for your side

Shawn Delyn [05:01:08] that it wasn't necessarily Brigham pulling out a document out of his desk and trying to push D and C 132 back. It sort of seems to suggest that the principles of D&C132 were in the air and people claiming that Joseph Smith revealed those principles from D&C132 to them as contemporary sources written in print without Brigham Young's likely influence.

Michelle Stone [05:01:33] Okay, so let me get into a couple of things. So first, of all, the first big problem is that there are very important elements of D&C 132 that are not found anywhere in the Nauvoo Expositor. Anything about eternal marriage which is unavoidably, inescapably monogamous. Right. That's just one example that we have a lot of that.

Shawn Delyn [05:01:52] You can have eternal marriage. That's also polygamous, right?

Michelle Stone [05:01:55] No, not in 132. In 132, it says if a man and a wife go through this process together.

Shawn Delyn [05:02:02] This is the thesis you and Greg talked about on the quick episode. Where did we. He was saying.

Michelle Stone [05:02:07] He kept saying, oh, that was so.

Shawn Delyn [05:02:09] I know. That was.

Michelle Stone [05:02:10] I'm like, okay, then go have affairs. Because if you're not sleeping with all of the women at the same time,

Shawn Delyn [05:02:15] all polygamous marriages are. It's one man coveting with one wife at a time. Anyway, that was. Go listen to that. That was interesting.

Michelle Stone [05:02:22] I hope we can all agree. Like, this is. This is why, in some ways, engaging with some Mormon men is so frustrating, because they tie themselves into the student in order to defend polygamy itself. Right.

Shawn Delyn [05:02:33] So your view is that eternal marriage in D&C, 132 only was monogamous in its nature.

Michelle Stone [05:02:39] Yeah, if we could.

Shawn Delyn [05:02:40] That's your reading of it?

Michelle Stone [05:02:41] Well, I mean. Yeah. If we look at those verses and I. So what I will say is this. We have strong evidence that Joseph Smith received a revelation on eternal marriage that was monogamous, and he taught it publicly on June. Okay, let me get the dates right. Sorry, my head is starting to get fuzzy.

Shawn Delyn [05:03:01] No, I've got them here. June 7, 1844, to the Nauvoo Council.

Michelle Stone [05:03:05] July 12, 1843, is when. I don't know what to make of it.

Shawn Delyn [05:03:10] Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Michelle Stone [05:03:11] July 14, 1843, or July 12, 1843, is when Clayton writes that Joseph wrote the revelation. But what's interesting is I don't know what to make of Willard Richards, Joseph Smith's journal, but he recorded that there was a revelation on that day, but doesn't say that it was about polygamy. Doesn't say more. And then we have Joseph smith teaching publicly July 16, 1843, four days later, speaking extensively about eternal marriage. Nothing about polygamy and saying the temple needs to be done before we can teach more. But it is very much an eternal marriage sermon. Four days after, like, so we would be claiming that he had a polygamy revelation and then four days later taught all day long and didn't say A single thing.

Michelle Stone [05:03:53] So what?

Michelle Stone [05:03:54] I.

Shawn Delyn [05:03:54] But he wouldn't want to be admitting polygamy. Well, that's in a public sermon.

Michelle Stone [05:03:57] Right, right. But again, be careful to not just bring the bias to ignore the evidence that, you know, because you can have this idea that, oh, he received this revelation and Hyrum's going to go read it to the High Council with no problem.

Shawn Delyn [05:04:09] Right.

Michelle Stone [05:04:09] And William Clayton's going to keep record it in his journal, but it's not anywhere else. It has to be kept super secret except for these big times that we expose it. And then later on when we have all of these claims of people saying, hyrum read it to me, Hyrum showed it to me.

Michelle Stone [05:04:21] Or.

Michelle Stone [05:04:21] Right. Like, it becomes very murky. So I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to go into it very much. I'm really running out of steam. But Joseph Smith did, I believe, have a revelation on eternal marriage, which he taught publicly on July 16, 1843. We have multiple records of it. And then if you go forward and read the city council minutes regarding the Nauvoo Expositor on June 8 and June 10, 1844, responding to the Nauvoo Expositor, they, like people, again, just throw out everything that Joseph and Hyrum says because they already come to it with the presumption that these other guys are telling, you know, that we have to believe everyone except for them, but they say they turned the truth of God into a lie and they disavowed all of it. And so I would like to. Again, I'm not loving having this conversation right now, while we're not able to get into the documents when I'm not feeling great. But what I want to say is we have strong evidence that Hyrum again taught eternal marriage on April 8, 1844, and completely condemned and forbid polygamy. Right. And so we have this strong line of them teaching eternal marriage, and we have a portion of that in 132. And then we have these other revelations that they claimed were going around Nauvoo on polygamy. And I don't, so I don't. I don't know what might have been going around, but I believe that 132 is an amalgamation of true and false sources, and that is borne out by William Law himself saying that the document he saw that he claimed was a revelation was much shorter.

Shawn Delyn [05:05:54] Where did he say that?

Michelle Stone [05:05:56] In his interview with Dr. Weil.

Shawn Delyn [05:05:57] So, Wilhelm Weil, you don't like that interview, do you? Isn't that A problematic interview from your

Michelle Stone [05:06:02] perspective, I don't think. Well, you can't just say an entire source is problematic. You can't just say an entire source

Shawn Delyn [05:06:10] or if it's really late or if the person is antagonistic to the church. Can't you say it's a bad source?

Michelle Stone [05:06:15] Well, William Law.

Shawn Delyn [05:06:16] Not credibly, but I mean, don't William Law.

Michelle Stone [05:06:19] Why would William Law be motivated to say that 132 was something different than what he saw? Dr. Weil had. Like, he corrects Dr. Weil in several of the points that he makes in his book, and some of them. And then he takes a lot of the information from Dr. Weil and they write some letters back and forth and then have some interviews. And he says that the document he saw was much shorter. Then we have James Whitehead saying that he saw a document on eternal marriage and it was much shorter. And then we have the RLDS missionaries that came out have several accounts of who they were told, worked on creating the revelation, amalgamating it, W.W. phelps and William Clayton and others. And so there are a lot of questions to ask about it. I appreciate RFM's research. I would love to engage with him about it as well. I do not think the case is nearly as lock solid as he claims and I have a lot more reasons to say that as well. Just again, it would be good to have the documents right in front of us. So I think he did some good work and some good. I mean, this has been pointed out like this was pointed out forever ago by the polygamists in my discussion group. So it's not a new argument, but it's already been hashed out and done. And I think there is much stronger evidence to show that Joseph was teaching about eternal marriage, not polygamy, which is amalgamated in that. In what became 132.

Shawn Delyn [05:07:38] Okay, let me do this. I'm going to call an audible because I can tell you're running out of steam and I don't want to be a jerk. So I'm going to do. But I also want. I want to talk about this on this podcast. And so I'm going to free you.

Michelle Stone [05:07:54] I'm okay to keep going.

Shawn Delyn [05:07:55] Well, I'm going to free you from having to micro respond to what I came up with. I want to. This will be fun. I want to put this out as an exercise to those of you who. Who either like Michelle and like DNC 132 problems and tend to think Joseph Smith wasn't a polygamist and I want to throw this out to ex Mormons and critical Mormons and believing Mormons that tend to think he was a polygamist. I'm going to share with you without you needing to respond. You can respond, but I'm not expecting you to respond because I know I've already kept you five hours and you're sick and you're running out of steam. So I'm going to just share what I learned.

Michelle Stone [05:08:39] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [05:08:39] And I'm going to do it. I'll do it from start to finish. It'll take hopefully just five minutes. But I want to. I'm doing it because I think it's really interesting. I think it's important and I think it's a fantastic field to as a launching point to have a lot of other interesting conversations with the documents in front of them. So I'll lay out. I'll call it a strawman. It's not a strawman. It's my best attempt at sort of highlighting what I think and what RFM thinks and other people think is like the biggest problem. And I have a little bit that RFM didn't mention that. I'm proud of myself for looking into that. I didn't get from rfm. I'm a lay it out. You can respond to what you want, but I have no expectation that you do because I can tell you're tired and not feeling well.

Michelle Stone [05:09:26] Okay. I wanna give the same call out to rfm. I think it's funny, John, that RFM is sending his questions through you rather than just engaging with me.

Shawn Delyn [05:09:35] So I hope he didn't do that.

Michelle Stone [05:09:36] He just said that.

Michelle Stone [05:09:36] I hope RFM at some point will be willing to have a conversation with me. Cause I like RFM a lot. I'm sad that he really doesn't like me. I think we could be friends.

Shawn Delyn [05:09:43] Oh yeah, absolutely. He's big hearted and he didn't give me questions to ask you. He let me know that he did an episode relating to you and then I went back and listened to it. But it wasn't like RFM's filling out.

Michelle Stone [05:09:56] So is that what this is? Because I felt very misrepresented in that episode, which is okay. I should have done a better job and shouldn't have set myself up.

Shawn Delyn [05:10:01] No, no. This is just me taking some of the stuff RFM shared, looking at the source documents and trying to do my own understanding of what happened. So I'm going to lay this out and I'm going to challenge all of you to check out, listen to my story, check out the source documents, see what's wrong with it, see what you agree with, see what you don't. And if you want to respond to anything at the end, of course, I'm going to give you a chance on this episode. Okay, so I start with looking at the three affidavits. And of course I knew that William and Jane Law were behind the Nauvoo Expositor, but I knew nothing about Austin Cowles. So I started looking into it and I hear about the Nauvoo City Council and reports that Joseph Smith, well, in the affidavits I read, if I'm remembering right, claims that Joseph Smith shared his revelation with the Nauvoo City Council.

Michelle Stone [05:11:04] That Joseph did or Hyrum did.

Shawn Delyn [05:11:05] Hyrum did. Yes. Thank you. Yes, yes, yes, thank you. Yes, that Hyrum did. So that makes me me want to look a little bit more into Austin Cows. And what I found out was that according to both the. Well, if. If according to the LDS Church, but also apparently according to Elvira Annie Cowles own affidavit, which again, after, you can contest if you want. What I know about what I learned about Elvira Annie Cowles, who I never thought about really until yesterday, was that she was a maid in the Joseph Smith home. Like Fanny in, you know, let's just say around 1842, through the end of 1842, that she marries Jonathan H. Holmes, December 1, 1842. So she's in Joseph's home up until she. The time she marries Jonathan H. Holmes. And then according to her affidavit, as I understand it, and to the LDS Church and to the Joseph Smith Papers project, that on June 1, 1843, this would be six months after she marries Jonathan Holmes, that Elvira marries Joseph Smith as a plural wife. That's definitely what the Joseph Smith Papers Project claims. And it lists a whole bunch of sources. It claims her own affidavit. It mentions Joseph F. Smith and his affidavits on celestial marriage. It mentions brown Nauvoo ceilings, adoptions and anointings, Todd Compton and sacred loneliness. All sorts of evidence the church would provide saying that Elvira was one of Joseph Smith's plural wives. Then. So that's June of 1843. And then in July 12, 1840. Did you understand you're about to fall asleep?

Michelle Stone [05:13:08] Well, can I just pause because I'm kind of. I appreciate that. But I would like this so much better if we were to say, hey, let's discuss the Expositor, and then we could both bring our evidences and have an actual conversation, because I.

Shawn Delyn [05:13:20] No, we will. I'm happy to do that. You don't. Well, can I just share this one thing?

Michelle Stone [05:13:26] Yeah.

Shawn Delyn [05:13:26] And I know this is your interview, but I think it's. I think it's interesting. I think it's interesting. Are you saying. Are you saying I'm masquering?

Michelle Stone [05:13:35] No, I would like to push back on some of these. I'd like to add some.

Shawn Delyn [05:13:39] But can that be a teaser for our next episode? Can that be a teaser? And I want to challenge our viewers and listeners to go do their own research so that when we do have a second episode, this is. I'm laying out a homework assignment.

Michelle Stone [05:13:51] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [05:13:51] Is that okay if we frame it that way? That way you don't have to feel like this is the final word or that what I say is right. This is a homework assignment to you, the viewers and listeners, to see if I'm wrong, if she's. You know, if you've got alternative explanations. Is that all right? Is it hard for you to do that?

Michelle Stone [05:14:08] That's okay. Yeah, of course. I always want to say my piece, but I'll just let you go.

Shawn Delyn [05:14:12] Okay. So then I wrote, read that after Elvira is allegedly married to Joseph Smith as a plural wife, that July 12th. So about a month later, 1843. Allegedly. According to, I guess we would say, William Clayton and maybe Hyrum Smith, that the polygamy revelation is dictated July 12, 1843.

Michelle Stone [05:14:37] So just William Clayton, not Hiram Smith Smith.

Shawn Delyn [05:14:39] William Clayton.

Michelle Stone [05:14:40] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [05:14:41] Yep. That's from his journal. Right. Okay.

Michelle Stone [05:14:43] And his later affidavit that Joseph F. Smith actually wrote that Sherilyn Bruno and I are releasing a paper on in the next couple of weeks, but it

Shawn Delyn [05:14:49] is in his journal. His diary.

Michelle Stone [05:14:51] Right, his recopied, highly problematic diary that still hasn't been released. Yes.

Shawn Delyn [05:14:55] Andrew Hat's copying of a diary that he had access to that the Mormon church is still holding and has been released.

Michelle Stone [05:15:01] That is a recopied. It's not a contemporary diary. It's been recopied. It's a clean copy.

Shawn Delyn [05:15:05] That's good.

Michelle Stone [05:15:06] It's very possible that he was creating it just as other evidence was created.

Michelle Stone [05:15:11] Okay.

Michelle Stone [05:15:11] Maybe paint this narrative.

Shawn Delyn [05:15:12] Maybe. Yep. So Mormon Church released that freaking diary. Okay. Right, right.

Michelle Stone [05:15:18] Yeah, we already do know that it's recopied. That's not a question.

Shawn Delyn [05:15:21] Okay, so according to William Clayton, July 12, 1843, the polygamy revelation is dictated by Joseph Smith to Hyrum. Right. And then August 12, 1843, like you mentioned, allegedly this polygamy revelation is read to the Nauvoo High Council, and there are several attendees who stated under oath that Hyram, as you corrected me on, read that revelation to the Nauvoo High Council. And again, the Joseph Papers projects lists a gazillion affidavits of different peoplethomas, Grover, Joseph F. Smith, you know, Jane and William Law, all sorts of sources. The LDS Church would claim support the idea of.

Michelle Stone [05:16:13] Jane and William Law didn't claim that he read it. They claimed that they saw it. Those are just the Expositor affidavits because they weren't at the High Council meeting. So they say that Hyrum showed it to him. We have a lot of affidavits of people claiming that Hyrum Room showed them the revelation in addition to theirs, but they're all later.

Shawn Delyn [05:16:27] But Austin Cowles would have been at that Nauvoo City Council meeting, correct?

Michelle Stone [05:16:33] I would need to look at the roles. I'm embarrassed that I am not coming prepared for this. I'm just too frustrated. He had stepped down from the Nauvoo High Council and was objecting to. You can see he wanted somebody. And I'm just too fuzzy to remember this. There was somebody that he wanted excommunicated, and he didn't win that argument and stepped down right after that. And I think that's a better explanation of why he stepped down, because the Expositor didn't come out until a year after that, almost a year later. And he never made a claim about. Never made a claim about Elvira or. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I'm slumping in my chair.

Shawn Delyn [05:17:10] No, it's okay. So my understanding is that Austin. Austin Cowles was at that Nauvoo City Council meeting.

Michelle Stone [05:17:17] Okay.

Shawn Delyn [05:17:18] Where he. Where he alleges to have heard Hyrum Smith.

Michelle Stone [05:17:21] I will not argue with that.

Shawn Delyn [05:17:22] I'm sure you're talking the Revelation. Okay, so we're trying to understand Austin Cowles. Why would he end up participating in the Nauvoo Expositor, and why would he be mad at Joseph Smith? And what I'm piecing together is it's possible that he found out that his daughter had been polyandrously married to Joseph Smith at some point. Maybe I'm speculating that maybe he didn't want to believe, like William Law, according to some accounts, didn't want to believe that Joseph was involved in the spiritual wifery. But then he's sitting in that Nauvoo City Council, and he's having Hyrum present to him this Revelation that ends up being reflected again in the Navajo Expositor. That also the substance of which appears in DNC132. So after a month after. To the day, a month after Austin Cowles allegedly attends the City Council and has the polygamy revelation revealed to him by Hyrum, he. Sorry, sorry, I'm getting that wrong. So August 12, 1843, is when the revelation was read to. Okay, yes, was read to the Nauvoo city council. Then September 12, 1843, a month after that Nauvoo City Council meeting happens. So September 12, 1843, Austin Cowles resigns from the Nauvoo High Council. So within a month of that meeting, he resigns. And it. And what I was able to read is that Austin Cowles was always against polygamy. He was always opposed to it. He was opposed to it after he resigns from the Nauvoo City Council. And the explanation for his motivation for signing the affidavit and participating in the Nauvoo Expositor was that he hated polygamy, was led to believe that Joseph Smith was a part of it. And I would add probably that he at some point found out that Joseph Smith had married his own daughter. And that provides a lot of explanation for why, with very sincere and, I would say, potentially laudable motives that, if true, I would think you would respect. He hated this idea of polygamy, associated it with Joseph, and that's why he included his affidavit in the Nauvoo Expositor, which, by the way, along with William and Jane Law's affidavits, reflect a lot of the substantive doctrines that are allegedly presented in DNC132. And all of this has nothing to do with. Do with Heber C. Kimball or Brigham Young injecting, you know, forcing affidavits or doctoring documents. These are contemporary sources, people close to Joseph who, with firsthand accounts, are expressing concern about learning about Joseph Smith's polygamy, learning about the revelation, and then objecting to it. So that, you know, that was interesting to me, and that's stuff I had no idea. I feel like I at least tried to go to the primary sources.

Michelle Stone [05:20:47] I think, again, I would rather have a conversation about this that we could both come prepared with. But I want to point out I acknowledged that this is the strongest evidence your site has. And did you hear how much speculation you had to build into that explanation?

Shawn Delyn [05:21:02] Sure.

Michelle Stone [05:21:02] Tons and tons of speculation, Tons of it. And I, again, didn't make my points. And then also, I Would love to like pushing back on rfm. He made some claims about why there are no children in Nauvoo that were like completely. It was kind of like your episode where you just hadn't studied it enough. Right. He made some outrageous claims that showed a huge lack of understanding. So I think maybe we could do another episode and we could bring up those two issues. Maybe RFM would want to come. You know, I think that would be great. I just am not up to engaging on this topic in depth right now.

Shawn Delyn [05:21:41] Do you feel like Austin Cowles is not a credible source for the same types of reasons you do? You don't like William Lowell.

Michelle Stone [05:21:49] So I've tried to say this several times. I feel like if we look at the totality of evidence, right. If we look at the full body of evidence on each and see what's happening, it is far easier for me to explain why Coles. Some people pronounce it Coles because it's written that way at times. So Cals.

Shawn Delyn [05:22:07] I'm sure that's right.

Michelle Stone [05:22:08] Yeah, I'm not sure. But it's far easier for me to explain this than it is to explain the huge, massive body of evidence on the other side. I think that you are actually not correct about why Cowell stepped down. I think it's a huge problem that he didn't ever claim that his daughter was married to Joseph Smith. Right. And I don't see any evidence of that. I just see a much, much later affidavit that we could dig in. It has problem. It has problems. I have found so many problems with those Navo Expositor affidavits. We have several of them that we can show they were just not telling the truth for a variety of reasons. There are no notes from that Aug. 12 meeting that show what would have happened and it would have been explosive. Mark said was co teaching with Hyrum that day. Also, I ask the question, and I think that this should be considered and not just thrown out. What revelation did Hyrum go across the street and get to take to the Expositor? According to the stories, the one version that Clayton wrote was burned. And we only had one other version written by Kingsbury that was tucked away and secret. And so we would have. There are.

Michelle Stone [05:23:11] These are.

Michelle Stone [05:23:12] These are not all of the arguments, but there are a lot of things that we would point to. But then I would like the opportunity to push on you on some of my strongest arguments and have you try to explain them. Because again, we're arguing just like I'm playing complete Defense here, which I don't think is the best way to get to the truth.

Shawn Delyn [05:23:27] And I'm not. I hope I was clear. I'm not. My intent wasn't to attack you or even to say that I proved anything. I don't think that. I can barely remember things that I have right in front of me on

Michelle Stone [05:23:38] a piece of paper.

Michelle Stone [05:23:39] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [05:23:39] I feel bad that we're ending it on this topic rather than starting a fresh one on this topic because I feel like it leaves a taste in everyone's mouth that I have bad arguments or something. But hopefully it doesn't.

Shawn Delyn [05:23:47] I don't think so. I think hopefully people will take their homework assignment to go study this. This story and the original sources.

Michelle Stone [05:23:55] Read the High Council record. It's a little bit tough, but John Dean wrote a good book on it. Read? Why, like, read? So you can see what happened right before Coles stepped down. Coles Kells step down. That I think is much better. Proximity explain why they waited a year to publish it and then look into the deeper story behind the Navu Expositor. There's a lot going in there. Law was starting a new church. He was trying to take over for Joseph. He wanted to be the leader. And so those who wanted to side with him had more motives than just, you know, exposing what they saw as the truth. I'm not claiming there wasn't a revelation. I've already said there were a. A quote, a pretended revelation. There are many claims that there were. There could have been something that they saw. What I am saying is that 132 is a later amalgamation.

Shawn Delyn [05:24:45] Okay.

Michelle Stone [05:24:45] I think there's a lot of evidence for that.

Shawn Delyn [05:24:47] But the revelation you believe does exist. There's no evidence for a different revelation.

Michelle Stone [05:24:54] Right.

Shawn Delyn [05:24:54] There's no document. There's no source. That's speculation. What do you mean that there is a. Well, you sort of seem to have the belief that there was some revelation that was shared.

Michelle Stone [05:25:04] Joseph Smith taught, but that it didn't

Shawn Delyn [05:25:05] have polygamy in it. That's speculation, right?

Michelle Stone [05:25:08] No. Joseph Smith taught publicly on July 16, 1843, with. And there are numerous records of it, that he taught on eternal marriage. Right. And then on in the city council minutes, both he and Hyrum say that they explain exactly what the revelation was. They explain what verse it was based on, was based on the Sadducees. Trick question to Jesus about they neither marry nor are given in marriage. Joseph explains exactly what the revelation was, where it came from. It matches perfectly the notes on July 16, he says this is the Revelation that I had. This is a lie. And for us to not recognize the consistency between those sources and just throw that out, I think is irresponsible. And then we can show a lot of problems with those later affidavits of people claiming that hi. And then we completely lack any notes in those High Council minutes. They have to come up with the day of August 12th. I think by going through the notes, the fact that we claim that Hyrum would be team teaching with Marx, who we know was an anti polygamist and didn't really believe it was happening. I don't. Well, until. I mean, we could talk about these other things, I'm just saying there are a lot of things on the other side that need to be looked at.

Shawn Delyn [05:26:14] Love it. Okay. All right. Thanks for going through that exercise with me. The viewers and listeners are really mad. They're like, end the interview now. Is it. How do you feel? Is it okay if I ask you now switching away from source documents? Any of that? Just a couple personal questions, just to kind of end on a more positive personal note.

Michelle Stone [05:26:34] Sure.

Shawn Delyn [05:26:34] Are you sure?

Michelle Stone [05:26:35] I'll go home and take a hot bath.

Shawn Delyn [05:26:37] Okay, me too. I love that.

Michelle Stone [05:26:38] Thanks, guys, for watching out for me.

Michelle Stone [05:26:40] I appreciate it.

Shawn Delyn [05:26:40] Yeah, yeah. Some people feel like you not just believing the affidavits that the women write, even into the late 1800s, is sort of a suggestion of not believing women.

Michelle Stone [05:26:55] Sure.

Shawn Delyn [05:26:56] Of not trusting women, of disrespecting women in their own voices. Give a quick defense for why. Because I know you believe Emma, and I know you believe in women, and I love that. That I'm hearing that such your motivation is about empowering women and giving women voices. So when somebody says you're disrespecting these women who wrote these affidavits later, by not just believing them and trusting them, what would you tell people?

Michelle Stone [05:27:22] So, again, the majority of the affidavits are actually the words of men and women are being used. Right. There are later affidavits and later writings that we can look at. And I think each one needs to be taken on its own merits. And so this is kind of a difficult question to answer, but maybe the short. I mean, I could give a better answer, but maybe the shorthand is, look at the FLDS women. Did I already talk about that when the compound was raided? Right. When the compound was rated. And we saw these women going everywhere saying, warren Jeffs would never marry underage girls and saying, no, I was 18 when my baby was born. Right. We have to be careful when we believe women that are trapped in a rather totalitarian society. If you look at, like, Brigham Young brought the church thousands of miles away and they were very, very isolated in Utah. And then they were taught constantly that it was their responsibility to follow their priesthood head. And in some ways, Mormon polygamy is the most pernicious of all of these systems. Because I don't, I don't like to compare, and I'm sorry if I offend anyone with comparisons to slavery. Please don't think I'm saying this is worse than slavery. But what I think is a useful comparison is that people who were enslaved or in the old world, women that were trapped in a king's harem, had the hope of a better future. The American enslaved people had spirituals that they sang and they hoped for Moses and deliverance. Right. In Mormon polygamy, the women were taught that this was their eternity, that this, there was no escape from this. They had to be faithful and silent and obedient for any hope of not going to hell. Right. And so we have to think of these women in that circumstance. And I do, I never want to say I don't believe women, but we also need to look at their stories. Helen Markimbell's book that she writes, highly, highly problematic. And it's basically an anti monogamy screed. It's saying that monogamy is of the devil, it will destroy the earth. It will. Right. And then we have all of these sort of fanciful, melodramatic, romantic claims that she makes. Right. We need to also understand the climate and culture of Utah at this time period. These women were not trying to say, Joseph Smith did this to me or he victimized me in this way. This was in a culture where the more you sacrificed for the principle, the more righteous you were. So Helen Kimball and Helen Whitney and others that were writing these like she was maximizing her sacrifice in order to elevate herself. Also, these women were asked to write their reminiscences for these purposes. And like Elizabeth Ann Whitney's, her reminiscence was actually written by, oh, I think Emmaline P. Wells. I'm sorry if I get any names wrong. Forgive me, but at the behest of Eliza Smith for Edward Tulidge's book.

Michelle Stone [05:30:11] Right.

Michelle Stone [05:30:11] So, and if you look at her affidavit, I mean, her reminiscence compared to the affidavits, compared to the other claims, none of it matches up. These are much easier. These documents are much easier explained as later attempts to claim earlier events. And I will just say anyone who is curious at all all about this, please go read the temple lot testimonies. Three of Joseph's wives testified. I think it's Lucy Walker, Melissa Lott and Emily Partridge. And if you read through their temple lot testimonies and then read like Joseph Smith III and compare them and you can see what I'm talking about. I mourn for these women who were put in these positions to defend this. I think it's a mistake to say believe women without taking into account the situation the women are in. If we say believe Elizabeth Smart when she says, no, I'm not Elizabeth Smart. We are not doing her a service.

Shawn Delyn [05:31:05] I think that Warren Jeff's FLDS point is really powerful. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah. And again, if you're annoyed by what Michelle's saying or by what I'm saying, go check out the source documents and think through it yourself. I love. Anyway, really quickly, I'll end on a couple more like, I'm sure it's not lost to you that you know, from Brigham Young to what George Albert Smith, all those LDS church presidents practice polygamy, that you know, Russell Nelson and Dallin H. Oaks and several other LDS prophets, Howard W. Hunter, Joseph Fielding Smith were sealed to multiple spouses in the eternities like to say that polygamy was a mistake and that Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball and John Taylor lied and hid and sinned and pushed this on the church and that just the prophetseers and revelators from then to now all got it wrong. Number one, I'm sure you can see how that sort of of potentially puts them in the light of being evil people because that's making up things. Sexual predation, forging documents, rewriting history. That's the work of evil. And so like there's so many different ways to ask this question, but like, how does that not, number one, condemn a bunch of prophets, seers and revelators that according to the LDS Church, God called, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's how can the church be true? How can God be at the head of the LDS Church if God is calling horrible men to be prophets for a couple centuries?

Michelle Stone [05:32:58] So I don't know that I would agree with the characterization of horrible man or evil men. I think it's more important to get in and try to understand their moral framework. Try to understand them. I am deeply troubled by many things, particularly about Brigham Young. I also try to give grace and see the value that he brought and some of the good things that he Accomplished, that is. So anyway, I don't know if I should say that I had a real struggle. So my 16 year old people are going to make fun of me, but some people are really mean. But my 16 year old is named Brigham. And I had a real crisis realizing I had done that. My husband did not want to name him Brigham Young. I argued for it just because I thought it was a cool name. I didn't love Brigham Young, I just thought it was a cool name. I went to high school with a cool kid named Brigham, had good associations with it. And anyway, and I've had to deal with like, I went through a time of feeling like I named my son Adolf. And so it's been good for me to try to go in again and try to see from a different perspective, see, you know, and have more grace. But I do struggle with a lot of things. It's true. However, when I read the Scriptures, I don't see perfect people and perfect leaders. Right. I see a pattern of God doing something, establishing a people and then spending the rest of the time trying to get them to come back to the terms of the covenant or whatever we want to call it, to stop doing things that are pretty wrong. I think the whole, I mean, we can look throughout the Scriptures. I could talk about Eli's sons and how evil they were, that he called them as priests and let them keep sexually predating the women and taking all of the feasts. We can look at Samuel and his sons. We can look throughout history and say there are problems with church leaders at times. However, that doesn't necessarily invalidate what God did through those people. And I don't believe it invalidates us. I think the message of Jesus Christ is you can always turn back, you can always come again. Right? You can always repent. We don't say, oh, sorry you did that, therefore it's all over, you're done. And I, again, I just, as I have looked into, like, for me, the

Michelle Stone [05:35:07] roots of this church are really, really good. I know people agree, disagree.

Michelle Stone [05:35:12] For me, as I have dealt with, into this research, my, my heart has

Michelle Stone [05:35:18] been really softened for Joseph Smith. It's really been a redemptive process because

Michelle Stone [05:35:22] I had the same challenges, the same biases and grudges against him. And as I have studied things that I didn't know and sources that aren't talked about and seeing how he dealt with things, how he dealt with people coming after him consistently time after time,

Michelle Stone [05:35:38] it's really easy to look at the

Michelle Stone [05:35:40] sources of what other people said about him. But it's something else to look at his own words and his own actions,

Michelle Stone [05:35:45] and it has honestly amazed me. I. I have come to really. I know this will ruffle feathers, but I have come to love Emma and Joseph Smith, and I feel that's one

Michelle Stone [05:35:58] of the reasons, like, when you guys

Michelle Stone [05:35:59] were doing your episode, I just, you know, I just want to cry sometimes

Michelle Stone [05:36:03] because I feel like people misunderstand him

Michelle Stone [05:36:05] so badly from what I have seen. And so I think the roots of reliance on the Spirit, forgiveness, love, Christ, like attributes, believing that God can commune with man, believing we can live our lives this way. Being taught to ask God each day, what can I do today to make

Michelle Stone [05:36:25] the world a better place? How can I serve you?

Michelle Stone [05:36:27] The roots that I see, the power that I feel in the Book of Mormon and so much of the Doctrine and Covenants. Right. Combined with the fruits that I see of the people around me and the goodness and being able to feel the spirit in the. Like, I had my son who was. Who attempted suicide, who served a mission. And my gosh, like, missions have been good for my kids. I don't want to just take that away from them too quickly. And I know we have all kinds of questions, you know, I've had to have answers, but I know that there are troubling branches, you know, but I don't think that branches define the entire tree. And I think that if we're up there trying to do our best to

Michelle Stone [05:37:11] just cut some of those branches off

Michelle Stone [05:37:14] to make the tree a little better. I just. I went through a lot of time

Michelle Stone [05:37:19] of not having much hope at all for the church, just thinking, okay, it's

Michelle Stone [05:37:22] condemned, it's over, and the Lord has really changed my perspective on that. I was called kind of in a surprising way to go back to the temple. My ptsd. I had had a couple of experiences in the temple, and I was not going to go to the temple again. But after I was healed, I was told to go to the temple, and I had some profound experiences, and I was given. So I was shown that there is so much hope for the church. Like, we're not done yet. It's not over. And. And I. Anyway, I just. I. I really, really love so much of this church, that if some of the leaders got some things wrong, God's bigger than that.

Michelle Stone [05:38:01] I. I have learned there is no mistake I can make that's too big for God to fix. And I think that's true of all of our leaders as well.

Closing Reflections and Future Plans

Shawn Delyn [05:38:10] Beautiful. I have to ask this before we go. Somebody wrote that it's kind of people who don't like the church win either way. If you're right that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy, that makes all the subsequent prophets, according to this person, horrible people. And the church is false, therefore, it loses. If Joseph Smith was a polygamist, then the church was founded by a sexual predator, and the church loses. So it's kind of a. People sometimes view your position as being a lose, lose for the church.

Michelle Stone [05:38:43] Yeah, it's irrelevant. Right. That's exactly what I said earlier, why I didn't want to get into Joseph Smith, because I was like, it doesn't matter who started it. It's the same problem for the church.

Shawn Delyn [05:38:51] And so somebody would then say, then you're on the chopping block for excommunication, because just talking about this stuff sort of, like, maligns the church from the church's perspective, and that would make them see you as a threat. So, like, I'm sure you do this knowing that excommunication is a possibility. Do you have thoughts and feelings about that?

Michelle Stone [05:39:11] I. I pray all the time that. That we can have room in the

Michelle Stone [05:39:18] church for loyal, faithful, good members who

Michelle Stone [05:39:21] disagree on a historical point, who say, like. Like, it's.

Michelle Stone [05:39:26] It is surprising that saying our founding prophet was faithful to his wife and told the truth might be considered an excommunicable offense. That's really something to wrap your brain around. Right. I know that I am putting my

Michelle Stone [05:39:41] leaders in a difficult position. I love and appreciate them so much. They're such incredibly good men, and I hate that I am making their job harder, you know? And I recognize that our church sometimes struggles with people having a different view. I never want to say what the church should do. I try really hard not to be critical, and if I have overstepped in any way, then I'm sorry. Let me retract that. I look back at Mountain Meadows Massacre and think, one, maybe the only thing we can feel good about in that whole horrible episode is the fact that we didn't excommunicate Juanita Brooks. I think that is a really beautiful thing that helps give us some amount

Michelle Stone [05:40:27] of redemption from that terrible, terrible episode.

Michelle Stone [05:40:32] I compare that to, like, Helmut Huebner.

Michelle Stone [05:40:35] Right.

Michelle Stone [05:40:35] Who was excommunicated when he was fighting against Hitler. I know that I am making people uncomfortable. I understand that, you know, this is unchartered territory. I do pray, and I ask your audience to pray that there can continue to be room in the church for me and my family, because it blesses us a lot.

Shawn Delyn [05:41:01] Beautiful. And I Think we already discussed that. You are seeing people being excommunicated for having the public position that Joseph did not practice polygamy. Is that right?

Michelle Stone [05:41:11] I think.

Michelle Stone [05:41:12] Well, you know, like anything, it depends on what is your terms.

Michelle Stone [05:41:15] Bishop roulette, you know, like leadership.

Michelle Stone [05:41:16] And I am.

Michelle Stone [05:41:18] I do understand. I just think. I think in general, excommunication is. I don't see it in general doing

Michelle Stone [05:41:26] more good than harm.

Michelle Stone [05:41:27] And I really do mourn at the people I know who have been excommunicated. I'm hoping that. I know some people think, like, I don't go sound off at my ward.

Michelle Stone [05:41:38] I don't say things, you know, I. I feel like Sunday service is a very sacred space where I hope that everybody doesn't bring their own pet issue in and make it hard for us to all worship together. So I hope that that's helpful. And I try to be very respectful. I don't try to convince anybody that I'm right in my life, you know, But I do hope that I can continue to read the scriptures and believe what they say, testify of the goodness of Joseph and Emma Said Smith and study history. That's basically what I'm doing. And I hope it doesn't become a problem. I don't think it should become a problem. I don't think historical questions should be like articles of faith.

Michelle Stone [05:42:21] Right.

Michelle Stone [05:42:22] We should be able to study a historical question. The fact is, for anyone who wants to claim I'm hurting the church or leading people out of the church, the truth is, polygamy hurts the church.

Michelle Stone [05:42:32] Polygamy.

Michelle Stone [05:42:33] Polygamy leads people out of the church. And one of the arguments I say is I hope that as a church, we don't want the only people talking about it to be people like you who really are quite critical of the church. Right. And I mean, that's not an offense, but I would like there to be

Michelle Stone [05:42:48] room for my voice to talk about polygamy in a way where I really am genuinely an advocate for the church. Even knowing the challenges.

Michelle Stone [05:42:57] I hope.

Michelle Stone [05:42:58] Maybe this is perception, but I hope that my church could see me as part of the solution. Look, here's someone who has studied all of this in depth and has felt strongly compelled to stay. And, you know, and I hope that that can be something that won't. I just. I feel bad that I'm causing more problems for any of the church leaders who already do so much.

Shawn Delyn [05:43:24] Beautiful. All right, well, I'm happy. A mutiny by my staff and the viewers saying, let Michelle go. Free Michelle. Free Michelle.

Michelle Stone [05:43:30] No, it's an all nighter. We're here for good.

Shawn Delyn [05:43:33] Everyone's mad at me. In fairness, we did agree that it would be a lengthy interview, but you've been a great sport.

Michelle Stone [05:43:40] Well. And it's been delightful, John. It's been really fun.

Shawn Delyn [05:43:43] Did I do okay?

Michelle Stone [05:43:43] You did. I was a little concerned.

Michelle Stone [05:43:46] I was a little mad last night, but I think we came through it.

Shawn Delyn [05:43:49] Was this okay?

Michelle Stone [05:43:50] Yeah, this was great.

Shawn Delyn [05:43:51] If people are mad at me for this, you're telling me I'm okay, You're okay.

Michelle Stone [05:43:56] Just tell them to like, send me

Michelle Stone [05:43:57] flowers or bubble bath or something.

Shawn Delyn [05:43:59] Do you accept donations? Do you accept financial donations?

Michelle Stone [05:44:02] I do, I do.

Shawn Delyn [05:44:02] I would love to. How can people support you financially?

Michelle Stone [05:44:04] Yeah, just on. On 132Problems. I accept Venmo or Patreon or just on YouTube.

Michelle Stone [05:44:12] I, I really, I really do. My.

Michelle Stone [05:44:14] My husband would love it if I were helping with the. With an income. Now that I don't have babies, he funds my passion project. So I appreciate any donations. Especially also while we're trying to do this journal and do this conference and build the journal. I really do want to ask people, please consider attending the conference, the Journal of Mormon Polygamy Conference. You'll rub shoulders with a lot of people here. If you've been interested enough to sit in through, what has it been, six hours? I think, think this might be something that you would really enjoy and appreciate. We would love to see you there. We'd love to meet people. I think it's going to be a

Shawn Delyn [05:44:50] great opportunity and I think you want me to show that screen again, so I'll just show it there. There is the website for the Journal of Mormon Polygamy and there's the registration button. What are the dates again? And who's.

Michelle Stone [05:45:05] March 21st, 22nd. I will remind people that my co founder of the Journal does not agree with my perspective.

Shawn Delyn [05:45:10] Cheryl Bruno.

Michelle Stone [05:45:11] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [05:45:12] Cheryl Bruno is a hardcore polygamy affirmer. I'm a pretty hardcore monogamy affirmer. So we are bringing that opposition into everything we do, which I think makes us a powerhouse. It's really a good combination.

Shawn Delyn [05:45:28] All right, well, I've really cherished. It's hard for me to get super excited and engaged in interviews sometimes after 20 years and 2000 episodes. I loved preparing for today and I loved every minute of our 5 hours and 47 minutes that we spent together. I'm sorry you're sick and I'm sorry I kept you so long. But I didn't want to end on just that intense historical Conversation.

Michelle Stone [05:45:52] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [05:45:52] No, I appreciate.

Shawn Delyn [05:45:52] I think the stuff you shared at the end brings it back up to an uplifting conclusion.

Michelle Stone [05:45:57] And you know what? I've got a heart of steel. I always could go longer, so I'm just fine. No, I have really, really appreciated this interview. I thought you conducted it very respectfully, very well, and I cannot thank you enough.

Shawn Delyn [05:46:10] Yeah. Well, thank you.

Michelle Stone [05:46:12] So no one be mad at John. Don't be mad at John.

Shawn Delyn [05:46:15] Yeah, you hear that, Gerardo? Okay. All right. So the YouTube channel is 132Problems. Michelle Stone. Yeah. Thank you so much for sitting in the hot seat and for pushing us all to look at the primary sources. Yeah. And I really, really. And if you want, let's figure out a part two.

Michelle Stone [05:46:36] Yes, please. Guys, hold him to that. Be mad at him if he doesn't bring me back.

Shawn Delyn [05:46:39] You want to do a part two? You want to do a part two?

Michelle Stone [05:46:41] Yes.

Shawn Delyn [05:46:42] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [05:46:43] I'll come do some of your Mormon discussions. I'll do whatever you want.

Shawn Delyn [05:46:46] You'll be the contrarian, the. The.

Michelle Stone [05:46:47] Or.

Michelle Stone [05:46:48] I'll just.

Shawn Delyn [05:46:48] It'll be truly neutral or objective.

Michelle Stone [05:46:51] Yeah. Then, yeah.

Shawn Delyn [05:46:52] Having multiple sides.

Michelle Stone [05:46:53] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [05:46:53] Use me however you want to. I'm game for all of it. I am passionate about this topic. I love the research. I love presenting it.

Shawn Delyn [05:47:00] All right. Thank you. Michelle Stone. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories.

Michelle Stone [05:47:03] Thanks.

Shawn Delyn [05:47:04] Thanks to all our viewers and listeners. Again, don't hate me. We couldn't do this without your financial support. So thanks to everyone who donates. Thanks to Brooklyn, Julia, Gerardo Maven. They were all integral to today's episode. Thanks to our board. Thanks to our donors. If you want to become a donor, go to mormonstories.org, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor. Also support Michelle Stone and 132. 132 problems. While you're at it, check out the conference. I may go. It just depends on whether I'm available.

Michelle Stone [05:47:38] Come, John.

Shawn Delyn [05:47:38] I will try and come.

Michelle Stone [05:47:40] Yes, you would be. We have lunches set up where people can go to lunch with whoever they want to, so people would love to come and go to lunch with you. I think you would be a fantastic presence at the conference. It'd be great.

Shawn Delyn [05:47:53] Sometimes I think the Mormon studies crowd hates me, but thanks for saying that.

Michelle Stone [05:47:57] Well, do you know what? We are expanding. The Mormon studies crowd hates me. I am not allowed to. Anyway. It's been. You know, I know that we're already done, but it has been shocking to see people not wanting these conversations to take place. So I really appreciate you jumping on board. And we also want more voices studying this topic. So I would love to invite RFM to submit an article on his topic to our Expositor episode. And John, if you have anything you'd want to submit, it'd be great. Come on, get the scholarship going.

Shawn Delyn [05:48:28] Okay.

Michelle Stone [05:48:29] All right. Or anybody else listening, anybody who wants to dig in and study that people have no idea like the field is white, all ready to harvest on this topic.

Shawn Delyn [05:48:40] Beautiful. All right, thanks again, Michelle. Thanks, Cheryl. Thanks everyone for joining us today. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, read the primary sources, get engaged, talk to people. Instead of talk about people. I say these things in the name of Emma Smith. Amen. How's that?

Michelle Stone [05:48:58] Amen.

Shawn Delyn [05:48:59] All right. Thanks for joining us today, everybody. Take care. See you all again soon. On another episode of Mormon Stories podcast.

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