Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:03] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Shonda Lynn. It's February 25, 2025, and today we are going to be talking about, well, we're going to be interviewing Michelle Stone. And Michelle Stone has gained quite a bit of notoriety and attention and interest and fandom because she has a YouTube channel called 132 Problems where she is exploring whether or not Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. And so she takes deep, deep, deep, deep dives into all the different evidences and claims made about whether or not Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. And, and I think it's fair to say that as of now, as of your review of the evidence today, you lean towards the camp that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy. Is that true?

Michelle Stone [00:01:02] Yes. Yes, that is fair to say.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] Okay. And it's not just her. This is a strain of thought or perspective that has its origins at the very beginning of Mormonism, including during the time Joseph Smith was alive. There were questions about whether or not he was practicing polygamy as early as, I don't know, the 1830s, mid-1830s.

John Dehlin [00:01:30] But then, of course, after he died, the reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for, I don't know, a century and a half, which was at some point led by Joseph Smith iii, Joseph Smith's son, and Emma Smith, Joseph's wife.

John Dehlin [00:01:48] They maintained for 150 years that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy until they sort of turned and changed their view on that. I don't know if it was in the 60s, 1960s or 1970s, but that's. There's a long tradition of people holding this position that Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy long before Michelle Stone or 132Problems YouTube channel. But I would say that this perspective has gained quite a lot of momentum over the past several years, in no small part to Michelle Stone. Your work, Michelle's YouTube channel.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] You know, many of her videos get 50,000, 60,000 views. It has a hundred thousand. It says it's got over 100,000 subscribers. Subscribers. Some people are curious about that number. But regardless, it's a, it's a significant enough movement that I'm thinking about it that I'm paying attention to it and that we're covering animal stories. And I tend to only want to do things that are socially relevant. And I think it's important. I'll give one other piece of context, just as background. So a week or two ago, I forget exactly when we did an LDS discussions Episode me and Julia and Nemo answering the question to our best attempt of whether or not Joseph Smith had sex with his plural wives.

John Dehlin [00:03:19] And because I have kind of this long standing bias against things that I fear qualify as conspiracy theories. So whether that's, you know, people didn't land on the moon or the earth is flat or you know, the 911 didn't happen or the Holocaust didn't happen or you know, because I feel like, or anti vaxxers, you know, generally speaking, because I have, because I believe that conspiracy theories can be harmful.

John Dehlin [00:03:52] I have this fear of never wanting to advance things that I am concerned might be conspiracy theories on Mormon stories. So when we did that LDS discussions episode and in previous episodes I kind of referenced Michelle Stone and her work without always naming her name and almost explicitly just saying I'm not going to, I'm not going to mention her name because I don't want to advance conspiracy theories. And you know, later, just a few days ago really we had this lovely two hour conversation with, where she just said I would love it if people would talk to me, not about me. And that was a very gracious, direct and thoughtful way to sort of call me out on, you know, what probably felt quite disrespectful or at least devaluing or diminishing.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] I don't know, you can speak for yourself there. But you know, that's it was at that point. And also Michelle and Cheryl Bruno on 132 Problems Channel did a response, part one of a response to this LDS discussions episode where they called me out on historical errors that I made, which I was quite embarrassed about. So embarrassed that I took the, the whole episode down for at least one full day.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] And I can explain why I put that back up. But anyway, that's all to say that there, there was enough there that I just realized it's really time just to bring Michelle on, to stop trying to ignore her, to talk to her, to show her dignity and respect and to let her tell her story and then to talk about these issues. And I know this is a, a bit of a lengthy intro. I'll just end by saying this. I, I, you know, as I started to prepare for this episode, you know, I'm like, what's your position on, you know, the Nava Expositor? And she's like, why don't you go watch the three or four or five videos that I've made on it?

John Dehlin [00:05:56] And I, you know, and for every issue that I came upon, like, oh, what about William Clayton's journal There's an episode on that and I'm like, oh, what about, you know. Anyway, pretty much every issue that, that you could want to know about, she's done an episode on. How many episodes at this point?

Michelle Stone [00:06:14] Oh, I, I want to say 158.

Guest [00:06:16] Right?

John Dehlin [00:06:16] Yeah. So more than 132.

Guest [00:06:18] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [00:06:18] Yes, yes. We've surpassed it.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] Yeah. So anyway, we're gonna. We agreed ahead of time that there'd kind of be three parts to this interview. The first part is going to be her story, her Mormon story. So we're going to do a good hour or two on that at least. And then the second part we're going to like we do with Patrick Mason and Jim Bennett and other faithful Mormons. I'm going to cover just the high level critiques of Mormon church truth claims. It may only be 15 minutes, I don't know. But the reason I'm going to do that is because I think there's a context around Joseph Smith's credibility that is much bigger than just polygamy, that I want to just get a sense for how much she knows about those criticisms and where she stands on them.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] We're not going to dig into them. I just want to kind of know where she stands on some of the broader controversies around Joseph Smith to then provide context for part three, which is where we're going to try to understand, number one, her positions around Joseph Smith's polygamy, or lack thereof, practicing it and how she responds to what many feel is overwhelming evidence that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy. And that's going to be a substantive part of this conversation. We agreed that there will be a part two, potentially where we potentially dig into the sources more extensively. I don't expect today to be like I pull up a source and she pulls up a source and we argue about the sources.

John Dehlin [00:07:48] Today is about getting a lay of the land for her positions. We'll have a follow up maybe where we talk about things more in depth. So that's what we're in store for probably a five hour episode. So strap in. We've. We welcome your live stream. We really appreciate any comments. Please subscribe to this channel. Also, if you want to learn more about Michelle and what she talks about, go subscribe to her channel as well.

John Dehlin [00:08:14] Please like this episode. And if you really want us to see your comments or questions and to potentially read them on the air, the best way to do that is through the super chat function of YouTube. But also, we just want to always thank our donors for making all this Possible we couldn't do this without you, so thank you. Open Storage Foundation Mormon Stories donors. We've got Julia and Maven moderating comments and doing time codes and show notes. So throw us your questions and comments and without any further ado, Michelle, first of all, anything you want to correct or add to what I said in the intro?

Guest [00:08:51] Well, think.

Michelle Stone [00:08:51] Oh, I have to apologize. I started getting sick last night because of course, when you're coming on Mormon Stories, I get. So I have to apologize for my voice. But the only thing I wanted to correct is that actually Emma Smith never was in charge of the RLDS Church in any way. That was just one little very ticky tack thing. But no, she wasn't. She didn't lead the RLDS Church. Only Joseph Smith III did.

John Dehlin [00:09:12] Okay. Yeah. And I'll, I'll get a million things wrong, so I'll appreciate that.

Guest [00:09:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:18] I don't know why I associate her with being kind of a leader. I don't mean like a hard leader, like a prophet or anything, but sort of as a figurehead. I don't know. Is that fair to say?

Michelle Stone [00:09:28] I think that's how, you know, I think that it is a really common idea that Emma, that like this is Emma's church, that Emma started this church that she at Break a machine. You know, it just, I think it's. I, I, you know, it, it doesn't seem very accurate to me, so.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] Okay. Anything else about how today's going to go? I, I tried to provide you with all the questions that I could beforehand. I, I'm. No, I'm not interested in gotchas. I'm not even interested in trying to pin you down or I just, you know, but, but I, I hope you feel respected in this process. I always want to people to leave these interviews feeling respected, so I hope.

Michelle Stone [00:10:04] Thanks. I appreciate that and I appreciate you having me on. I know that this is a challenging. I don't know that this, this creates complications for people. I know that this is a very divisive topic that people have really strong feelings about. So I appreciate you being, being willing to step into it.

John Dehlin [00:10:20] Yeah. Thanks for coming.

Michelle Stone [00:10:21] Really great.

John Dehlin [00:10:22] I think, I think, I mean, I think we'll get to this. But like people are being excommunicated for taking the position that you hold. And so it's. For me, it's no small act that you're willing to come on Mormon Stories knowing that you value your membership, I think, and love the gospel as much as anyone and that your work is probably a reflection of your love for the gospel. It's no small thing that you're willing to come on Mormon stories knowing that there could be risks. So.

Michelle Stone [00:10:53] Well, thank you.

Guest [00:10:54] Thanks.

Michelle Stone [00:10:54] I. I'm a glutton for punishment. What can I say? Oh, there was one other thing. Well, and maybe we'll get to this, so maybe I could wait. But I did want to also clarify one other thing that actually, we have a lot of agreement, because when I started my channel, I actually didn't want at all to get into Joseph Smith's polygamy. That was not my interest or my topic. I wanted to share with the people in the church, my people, that polygamy was never of God. So my entire first year is actually scriptures and theology sharing how polygamy was never of God. And also I get into a lot of other things.

Michelle Stone [00:11:27] Psychology, sociology, biology. A lot of other things to show the impact of polygamy and to show that it always has bad fruits and that it's never of God. It wasn't until I was into my podcast for quite a while that I started diving into Joseph Smith, because obviously the documentation seems completely overwhelming, and I just thought that Joseph Smith originated polygamy just like everybody else that people really pushed back on me. So I just wanted to clarify that. That, actually, the core issue to me that I feel is by far the most important is that people understand that polygamy is not of God. And I know for much of your audience, it's like, duh.

Michelle Stone [00:12:03] But it's. It's actually painful and sad how. How many people in our church don't understand that really, really kind of drag this along with us.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] Yeah. And so in some way, we're kind of allies because we both think polygamy is horrible.

Michelle Stone [00:12:22] Yeah, well, it was.

Guest [00:12:23] So.

Michelle Stone [00:12:24] So did you have any more questions? Because I can dive in and kind of start talking about it.

John Dehlin [00:12:27] Let's do your intention really quick. So tell us really quickly. We do this with everyone. Why did you want to come on Mormon Stories? And you've got a journal and a conference coming up, and I want to give you a chance to talk about that as well. So first, why did you want to come on Mormon Stories real quick?

Michelle Stone [00:12:42] So, yes, I did. I wanted to come on Mormon Stories for. For the first thing to talk about this journal and this conference that we're really excited about. And do you want to first. And then I can talk. So this is the journal of Mormon Polygamy that is being started. The first articles should be coming out early, early in March, and our Conference is coming up March 21st and 22nd. And what we are doing with the journal is trying to create engagement, trying to start people engaging together so everybody can understand the research that is being done on this topic to try to bridge the divides.

Michelle Stone [00:13:16] Because when we all. When we bring different perspectives together, I feel like it just accelerates what everybody can learn. So we're really excited about that. At the conference, some of the people we have speaking that some of your audience members might know the names. Todd Compton will be there, and Don Bradley, Claire Barris, Barbara Jones Brown is our keynote speaker, along with Taylor Petrie is our other keynote speaker. I'm going to leave people out. And then we have people that are from different perspectives. We have people joining us from fundamentalist communities who are current fundamentalists. And then we also have people from the community I represent that will be presenting several names.

Michelle Stone [00:13:52] Peter Brown, Jeremy Hoop, Gwendolyn Wine, Whitney Horning, and several others. So we actually think it will be a fantastic experience. So I wanted to let people know about that.

John Dehlin [00:14:00] It's quite a lineup. Yeah, that's quite a lineup. That's exciting. It's at the U, right? University of New York.

Michelle Stone [00:14:06] It is. It's at the u. Yeah. The 21st and 22nd. Oh, and then I should. I guess I should share the intention. I guess I left that out. Yeah. Yeah. So I wanted to let people know about this journal and conference because we are putting some. So much work into it, and we're really, really optimistic and excited about it. And also, I just have.

Michelle Stone [00:14:25] I want to share my perspective with your audience. I think there are a lot of people who haven't. Who. Who, you know, obviously would be like, why in the world would somebody think that? And I'm. And I understand. I fully understand sort of the hostility and the dismiss, dismissiveness, because I am saying something very different. But my hope is that in just talking about it and letting people understand my journey and then also answering some of the questions, we can just kind of break down some of those barriers a little bit where we can start having conversations so we can all have better scholarship. That's what I'm hoping for.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] Love it. Okay. And normally when I start the story portion, I start by saying, where does your Mormon story begin? I'm dying to know how far back and if polygamy is a part of your Mormon ancestry. But I'll just say, where does your Mormon story begin?

Michelle's Background and Family History

Michelle Stone [00:15:23] So I'll begin back there. So in. Okay. So for people who understand, in 1904, the second manifesto was issued which was like, for real, we are not doing this. Totally done.

John Dehlin [00:15:35] When the Mormon Church said, no more polygamy. For real.

Michelle Stone [00:15:37] This time they did in 1890, but they had to again in 1904 because of the Read Smoot hearings and things that were happening. So, yes, they. They reissued and they were like, we mean it. In 1906, my great grandfather was called. So our family history, you know, our family family lore, I guess I could say, is that my great grandfather was met with the president of the church and was told he could go to. To Mexico and take a second wife. He and his first wife were unable to have children. And so. And he's. And. And what our story is, is that he said, president, I thought we weren't doing that anymore.

Michelle Stone [00:16:12] And Joseph F. Smith said, I'm not calling you as the president of the church, I'm calling you as the president of the priesthood. And that's how he differentiated it. And so my grandfather did go down to Mexico and court the bishop's daughter, waited till she turned 16, and they got married.

Michelle Stone [00:16:29] And for the rest of his life, he was very protected by the church leaders. He served in high callings. He worked in the church office building. So this is all very verifiable. So this is my ancest. And interestingly, I'll go on a little sidetrack. I have the same. My great grandfather happens to be Mark Hoffman's grandfather. So if people know who Mark Hoffman. Mark Hoffman is my cousin once removed.

John Dehlin [00:16:52] And he's. For those who don't know, he's the bomber forger that we've covered in previous episodes.

Michelle Stone [00:16:56] Yeah, I know it's maybe weird to be associated with him, so I don't need to bring him up, but it's just an interesting part of my growing up and part of our story that I know my Aunt Lou, my older siblings, grew up with Mark, knew him to some extent, have a lot of stories to tell about him growing up. And I was. I was far too young to know him, but I know that my sister Janae, that is, she. She just passed away, but she had cerebral palsy. She's a lot older than I am. And every time they would drive around the point of the mountain, she would just say, hi, Mark.

Guest [00:17:29] You know, like, we have funny family

Michelle Stone [00:17:31] stories about Mark Hoffman.

Guest [00:17:33] Okay.

Michelle Stone [00:17:34] That they all knew. You know, he's our cousin. Isn't that interesting? My mother is the oldest granddaughter and then of the polygamists. And then Mark Hoffman was the son of the youngest sister, so he was the same age as my kids. As my mom's kids. It's my older siblings.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] So your mom is the granddaughter of polygamous family?

Michelle Stone [00:17:55] My mom's oldest, yes. I'll tell you an interesting story. So the first wife's name was Agnes McMurran, and William Gailey Sears was her husband. The two of them went to Mexico and they married. Oh, Athelia, Viola, call. If I got get any of the names wrong, I'll be embarrassed, but her first baby was named Agnes after the first wife. And that's my grandmother. So I have polygamy pretty close.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] Yeah. Would you believe my grandmother was the daughter of a third wife?

Michelle Stone [00:18:24] Oh, really?

Guest [00:18:24] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:18:25] It's not even a great grandma for me.

Michelle Stone [00:18:27] Yeah, this is my grandmother. My grandmother was the daughter.

John Dehlin [00:18:29] Okay.

Michelle Stone [00:18:29] Okay. So we both have a second wife.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] Okay. So we both have grandparents.

Michelle Stone [00:18:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:34] That were children of polygamous polygamy in

Michelle Stone [00:18:36] the LDS Church, not fundamentalists.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] Yeah, me too.

Michelle Stone [00:18:39] And so I was raised. I don't think it was talked about a lot, but I was just raised believing that polygamy was the higher law, that it was the law of Zion and the celestial kingdom and that, you know, as soon as we were righteous enough to live polygamy and the law of consecration, Jesus could come. And, you know, that was really my perspective for quite a while. In fact, as a young mom, I sold my mom's music. So my mom is Janine Brady. If anyone knows I'm a Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:19:08] Tell us about her because.

Michelle Stone [00:19:09] Yeah, yeah, my mom is awesome. She just turned 90 in. In November.

John Dehlin [00:19:13] She's still alive.

Michelle Stone [00:19:14] She is alive. She's still kicking, and she's great. And she wrote. Oh, go ahead, she. So people will recognize when I grow up, I want to be a mother. I was raised.

Guest [00:19:25] So I.

Michelle Stone [00:19:25] My bedroom growing up was below my mom's bedroom. So I, in the mornings would hear her composing on her piano that was right above my bed. So I got to hear those songs early on. And. Yeah, I guess. I guess we can't sing I'm a Mormon anymore. We had to change it to I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Guest [00:19:41] Right.

Michelle Stone [00:19:42] And then she also has some songs in the primary song book, and which ones she wrote I lived in Heaven.

John Dehlin [00:19:49] I lived in heaven a long time ago.

Michelle Stone [00:19:51] It is true. Yep.

Guest [00:19:53] She wrote that one.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] That's a good one.

Michelle Stone [00:19:54] It is a good one.

Guest [00:19:55] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:19:55] What else? What else is she.

Michelle Stone [00:19:56] Well, she actually. I don't know that she submitted many to the primary song, but because she didn't like that Other people would edit it without her. You know, she's kind of like, I wrote a song, don't change my song. It was her feeling, you know, so she just. Most of her songs she did on her own. Where's some others that people would know? She has so many.

John Dehlin [00:20:15] I'm pretty sure Margi grew up listening to these songs.

Guest [00:20:18] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] Did your mom write Telling the Truth isn't going to be.

Michelle Stone [00:20:23] Yeah, my teacher told me. And the LDS church made videos. Videos using. Using several of her songs. Yeah, so the. The Stand and Tall series and the Safety Kids and. Yeah, like. Like she really has an amazing legacy. And, you know, I. She's always been such a model to me. She raised nine children and then went on to. To.

Guest [00:20:44] They.

Michelle Stone [00:20:44] They sold, I think in their heyday, over 15 million albums. And that was with albums and cassettes, not just digital down, you know, so it was actually quite a. Quite a successful business that she. My mom did the music. My dad was also a musician, so he helped clean things up and he ran the business. And so my whole growing up, my dad was either at the office or at the church because he was also the bishop. My whole growing up.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] Okay, wait, so where did your parents meet?

Michelle Stone [00:21:10] They met at byu.

John Dehlin [00:21:12] Okay. BYU Provo. Okay. And they married around what year?

Guest [00:21:17] Oh, I'm so embarrassed.

Michelle Stone [00:21:19] My mom was born in 34. For my oldest sister's 20 years older

John Dehlin [00:21:22] than I am, so probably in the mid-50s.

Michelle Stone [00:21:23] Yeah, they would have married in the-50s.

John Dehlin [00:21:24] Okay. And then they had how many kids?

Michelle Stone [00:21:27] Nine.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] Nine kids. And you were wearing the birth.

Michelle Stone [00:21:30] Nine.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] You were. You're the youngest.

Michelle Stone [00:21:31] I'm the tail end. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:21:32] Okay. So what was your dad's profession?

Michelle Stone [00:21:35] He. So he ran bright music.

John Dehlin [00:21:36] Okay.

Michelle Stone [00:21:37] He ran the.

John Dehlin [00:21:37] So they started that company together.

Michelle Stone [00:21:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] After they got married. Okay.

Michelle Stone [00:21:41] Yeah, they actually started it. I want to say they started making that they had to their first books because it started with. With manuscript books of their LDS songs for children. My mom was always frustrated because there were Sesame street songs and then reverent primary songs. So she one time heard her children outside singing I love Trash from Sesame Street.

John Dehlin [00:22:02] Oh, I love trash.

Guest [00:22:04] I don't know it.

John Dehlin [00:22:05] Anything dirty or dingy. Or dusty.

Guest [00:22:08] Yes.

Michelle Stone [00:22:08] And my mom was like, we can do better for our children. So her initial. She didn't love it, I guess, but her initial idea was I want my children to have the fun of weekday songs but teaching messages. So that was her initial idea, but then it expounded very much from there. So I think she started it when she was Pregnant with me, actually.

John Dehlin [00:22:29] And then started Bright Music. Oh. After she had. Had seven kids. Nine. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Eight. Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So. So what was your dad doing before Bright Music got started?

Michelle Stone [00:22:41] He always was an entrepreneur and trying. He struggled, he, they, they struggled financially for a very, very long time with him trying to start different businesses and trying to provide. He got a master's in music composition. And so he was always very careful with us to say, what are you going to do with that degree? Because nobody had asked him that question.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [00:23:00] And so. But it served him really well because he was such a hard worker and he just made this business. It's hard to make a business go. And that was my dad that did that.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] So what cities were y' all raised in?

Michelle Stone [00:23:11] I was just so, just a little bit north of here. I was raised in East Mill Creek, went to Olympus High. So I'm kind of in my old stomping ground.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] Oh, okay. Wow. So this is kind of your area. All right. Okay. So after giving birth to you, your mom started Bright Music. Right? Is that was. And then she and your dad built that business up while you were growing up. Okay. So that's kind of a non traditional Mormon woman set of activities because it's perceived that the woman's place is in the home and that she shouldn't be working outside the home. So that feels a little bit non traditional now. That's just what some people think. What do you think about that? Having a working professional mom growing up?

Michelle Stone [00:24:00] Yeah, that's an interesting question. Because I didn't. She wrote her music at home and then she would be in the recording studios. And so I remember, you know, take like she'd get us little latch hook quilts and we'd go sit at the recording studio for hours at a time while the more talented children would record while we'd sit there watching them. And, and so, so, and then I do, I wish I do remember being locked out of the house a lot coming home from school and she wasn't home yet. So we'd have to figure out a way to break in the house or go somewhere else, you know.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] You were a latchkey kid, basically.

Michelle Stone [00:24:30] Well, except that my mom wouldn't let me have a key, so that was funny. It would have been better if I'd been Alaska.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] You were Alaskan kid without a key?

Michelle Stone [00:24:35] Yeah, I was a locked out kid, but it was only, it was only periodic. It was only when she was in the studio. So actually, because she really. My mom just was born with this Amazing talent. When she was six years old, she became the accompanist for the school, you know, the pianist for this. She just was really, really talented from an early age and wrote music her whole way through, you know, until she started write music. I mean, she'd always been writing the road show and she wrote a lot of music. And so I actually really, I mean, for me, I appreciate that everybody has their own path, but my mom felt like dedicating her life to her motherhood for that many years really informed what she was able to do later.

Michelle Stone [00:25:19] She felt like that was like she couldn't have done bright music like she did if she hadn't first raised her family. And for me, it's been really motivational and inspirational because I also have loved raising my family. I have a lot of children and I'm so thankful that I've gotten to put all of my time and talents into raising my family. And now that, you know, I don't have babies the same age, I'm putting, I'm doing full time work in a different direction. So for me, it's a really good model that my mom showed me.

John Dehlin [00:25:48] Yeah, so your mom kind of exemplified having the kids, being the mom and then having the second act of a professional life after the kids are born and during and after raising them.

Michelle Stone [00:25:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] That kind of primed you for the same sort of thing. And 132 problems right now is kind of your bright music.

Guest [00:26:06] Yes.

Michelle Stone [00:26:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:08] Is that accurate?

Michelle Stone [00:26:09] It is, it is. And I actually, I'm so thankful for my mom's example because for me, it's like it's really hard to be having kids and worrying about daycare and babysitting in a career and, you know, trying to navigate all of that. At the same time, I think it's wonderful that people do it. For me, this has been a very graceful trajectory to go on. Like, I always want to encourage couples. Don't be afraid to have your family first and then build your career. It's not a bad method for anyone that feels inspired to go that direction.

John Dehlin [00:26:37] Do you have a sense for whether you're like, I know that Pauli's done, there was some jealousy about his popularity and that maybe some of the brethren were uncomfortable with how popular he was getting. That's just an example of like how commercialism with a religious bureaucracy can sometimes run afoul of each other. Do you have a sense for whether your mom was on the good side of, quote, the Brethren or of Salt Lake on the bad side? Whether there was drama or conflicts between her business and the church.

Michelle Stone [00:27:05] Church leaders. Yeah.

Guest [00:27:06] So.

Michelle Stone [00:27:06] So the church. One thing that's been good for me to learn is the church isn't a monolith. It's a bunch of individuals with different perspectives, you know, and. And so there. There were some challenging things that, you know, that I think just. I think you're right that just sometimes that happens. I know that my mom struggled at times with some things that happened, and there was a. Some I can't remember. I don't know the details. I was young, but. But she always just kind of worked through it and. But yes, that's a good question. I know there were some frustrations and some conflict at times, but it didn't stop her.

John Dehlin [00:27:39] Did they become pretty financially decently well off by the time bright music hits its pinnacle?

Michelle Stone [00:27:45] Yeah, when I was growing up, so my siblings grew up quite poor, and then I grew up quite different. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:53] So they did well by the time it hit its apex.

Michelle Stone [00:27:56] Yeah. My dad wasn't fabulous with money, so he didn't invest well, and he didn't, you know, like, he just ran his business and was a musician.

Guest [00:28:02] So.

Michelle Stone [00:28:02] So I don't know that they did, like, astoundingly well, but. But they did. They did quite well. And, you know, my mom's still taken care of. She's not. She's not super rich, but she's taken care of at 90, and I'm thankful for that.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] Okay, this is going back a tiny bit. Do you have. I would assume that if you had polygamous ancestry starting in 1906 or whatever, you might have polygamy and polygamous ancestry going all the way back potentially to Nauvoo or thereafter.

Michelle Stone [00:28:30] Yeah. Do you know what I would need to. I, I've. I. I have looked into that before. I knew. I know I have polygamy on both my mom's side and my dad's side. And you don't know how far? Not a little bit. But I would need to, like, I. I would need to refresh my memory. I haven't looked into that, actually.

Michelle Stone [00:28:44] I do have a grandmother who has. Who has been one of my inspirations and. And someone that I feel like is kind of one of my angels. Her name is Ann Mariah Bowen, and she has a story that is just tragic. And I didn't learn about this, but she. Until. Until I was well and going in my podcast, but she.

Michelle Stone [00:29:05] She was 15 when her dad died crossing the Mississippi, trying to get an oxen team to. To leave and come west and he ended up dying of pneumonia a day or two later. So she ended up. So she was an orphan and her mother was a widow. She drove her older sister's oxen team because her older sister, I think, was pregnant and had a baby. So at 15, having never driven a team before, she drove the oxen team clear across the country, including, we have a story where they got into a river and were starting to get turned over and go down. And she climbed out on the tongue and unhooked it and saved the whole.

Michelle Stone [00:29:42] The whole deal. She was really amazing. And then. This isn't the story. This is what happened because the records are all there. So in the. Oh, gosh, I don't know if it was the tabernacle or some other building. There was some conference, and Brigham Young was speaking, and he said, anson, Call, have you taken a. Have you gotten a plural wife? And he said, no, Brother Brigham. And he said, there's Ann Mariah Bowen. Take her. And so she was 17. Anson call, I want to say, was 40.

Michelle Stone [00:30:08] And the next day she had to leave with him. And pretty. Pretty awful. And she ended up being left in just the most godforsaken places trying to raise her children. There are amazing stories of what she did. She was left, oh, up north maybe. Maybe in Logan, I'm not sure, but she.

Michelle Stone [00:30:27] Maybe somewhere else. The Call compound was in Bountiful. And she ended up. She was up there with her little children and knew that they would not survive the winter, so she had to get down to the compound before winter. So she ended up bringing, I cannot remember how many head of cattle and her, I think, four little children by herself from wherever she was up north to the compound. And she, you know, she felt so proud of herself that she didn't lose a single one. Anyway, she ended up having six children. Two of her little girls passed away. And then Anson Call decided to divorce her.

Michelle Stone [00:31:01] And this, the story is some. So he helped with the rescue, the handcart rescue, and ended up getting two extra wives with that. And so we had two extra wives. And it sounds like the wives didn't really approve of her. Outdoorsy, she ran the post office. She. She ran a little restaurant. She worked out with the farmhands. And they didn't approve of that. And so they. They kind of conspired and got him to divorce her. And she got kicked out. And so I. I'm sorry, I sometimes get a little teary at these stories, but she got kicked out, was only allowed to take her babe in arms and had to make her way back to Spanish Fork to live with her mom, who was, who had been given to some other polygamous man.

Michelle Stone [00:31:44] And as soon as that little baby was a few years old, old enough to be taken away, they sent the oldest son to come and get her baby and take, take her away. So there are some really, really heart wrenching stories and I've actually like, like, I'm sure this will come up, but I am someone who feels like I have of interaction with the divine, you know, and, and I feel like she is one who has called me to do this work. Like I've had experiences of being waking up in the night and told to go find something, told to go see something.

Guest [00:32:14] And I've really dug out her story

Michelle Stone [00:32:16] and feel a close, like she's someone excited. I'm excited to give a hug too.

John Dehlin [00:32:22] Yeah, I'm very much emotionally connecting with this part of your story. I. It wasn't until a few years ago when I did an interview with Melissa Growing up, growing up. Polygamy.

Michelle Stone [00:32:35] Yes, I love them.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] Where I investigated my own polygamous ancestors. This grandma that I told you about. And I found out that like, wow. You know, while my, my first two great grandmothers, I guess were struggling to just like survive with young children, my great grandfather was called on a mission like to Europe. And so not only are these women in a polygamous marriage with young kids, but their husbands called to Europe, totally neglecting them. I think as a doctor, and I think one or two of his own children died while he was away, totally neglecting his first two wives. And then once he moved on to his third wife, the accounts are that he kind of just left the, the first two families to kind of fend for themselves.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] And then he gets a fourth wife who he ends up dumping and she gets addicted to opiates and she goes back to Oregon after he kind of threw her out and there were lawsuits. And just like that, I connect with how horrific the conditions of polygamy were for so many of the wives and children that were brought into it.

Michelle Stone [00:33:44] Absolutely. So many just tragic, tragic stories. More, more than people realize. You know, it's everywhere that, that this was practice, I will say. So. My, my great grandmother was the 16 year old. So Anne Mariah Bowen's little 3 year old boy, when she got kicked out is my great great grandfather. And his, he went down and was the, was the bishop in Mexico and his daughter is my great grandmother. And she. What was the story? I was just going to tell you something and totally lost my Train of thought.

John Dehlin [00:34:12] It was just about all the horrific things that happened.

Michelle Stone [00:34:15] Yeah. But she. I will say she, like everybody talks about what an incredibly wonderful, wonderful person she was. So I don't want to cast any aspersions at people that live these principles, but I do know that she was the only one with the children. Right. And she. When Agnes was born, my grandmother, named after the first wife, she was left in Mexico while the husband and the first wife took the baby to the grand tour on Salt Lake to kind of show off their. Off their baby. Right. Just unthinkable things. These are the things I didn't learn about until after. Because my mom really talks about how they were kind of raised to not talk about things, you know, in these polygamous situations.

Michelle Stone [00:34:52] And so. And then, you know, so. So I'll tell you first. So I was raised believing this. I didn't hear these stories when I was young. I heard the stories about. One of the stories is that at my grandfather's funeral. Oh, well, I'll first tell you this. So my grandfather was also. He was called to be the mission president in Tonga and told he could only take one wife. So he took his first wife, and the second wife, with all of the children, was left here. And one of the. My grandmother didn't marry until she was quite old for the day. She was, I believe, 27, which was quite old for that time period because she and her younger sister were working full time to try to provide for the family.

Michelle Stone [00:35:25] And so, you know, there were some difficult situations. So. But, yeah, I was always told the story that when my grandfather died, an apostle spoke, the chapel was filled because he was a big, important church leader. And, you know. And then a little while later, the first wife, Agnes McMurran, died. And the chapel was empty, which is so sad. And the story is that my great grandmother, Mother sat on the bench and just said, where are they? Don't they know I loved her just as much as I loved him, you know, So I don't want to only, like. I know that people did their best, and some of them were amazing people.

Michelle Stone [00:36:01] But I also know that there was, like, after. So I. So I grew up thinking, oh, there are just things we don't understand, and it will be beautiful. It wasn't until I started looking at it in. Through this new perspective that I started hearing other stories like that, that my great. My grandmother. My great grandmother would sit. Her children would hear her at night, rocking her baby, crying, saying, mine, mine. Because nothing was allowed to be hers. Do you know What? I mean, everything. I think that my great grandfather was very sympathetic to the first wife because her mother had been a plural wife and had really suffered.

Michelle Stone [00:36:38] And so I appreciate that he was so sensitive to her. It's just. There's not a good way to make it work. It causes pain. And there are so many stories of my wonderful great grandmother's pain.

John Dehlin [00:36:50] And you look at kind of you as. I don't want to say hyperachiever, but I'm impressed with what you've accomplished and with all your children and then your mom. How could it not be that part of our inheritance of hyper achievement doesn't at least come in part from the massive unreasonable expectations that polygamy brought to our ancestors? And then that hyper achievement was kind of passed down, you know what I mean? Or endurance or perseverance or grit or determination. Right.

Michelle Stone [00:37:24] Yeah, I hadn't. I hadn't thought of it quite that way, but I am actually people. People that are. You know, there are different groups of people that don't appreciate the work I do. One of them is polygamists or very polygamy happy members of the church, you know, and they. They really accuse me of betraying my ancestors. And, you know, and I don't. I don't feel that way at all. I'm like, no, I'm trying to help be a voice to help right the wrongs that they suffered under. But I appreciate their goodness and their sincerity and their hard. Like, they endured.

John Dehlin [00:37:55] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [00:37:56] Amazingly well.

John Dehlin [00:37:57] Oh, yeah. It's inspiring. Okay, so how would you describe your Mormon upbringing? Just as a Mormon kid and as a Mormon teen?

Growing Up Active in the Church

Michelle Stone [00:38:05] Yeah, I guess just Mormon. Right. Like, we were very active. My dad was the bishop, you know, and I. I did. I. I've always been someone that just has had spiritual experiences. So I, you know, have had a lot of connection to the Lord and from how I interpret that as.

Michelle Stone [00:38:22] And I don't know, when I went through my teen years, I guess I was a little bit more. Oh, I don't just want to be like everybody else, just one of the crowd, but in general, just busy with sports and school and music and. And went through. And, you know, I didn't go to young women very often, and that caused a little bit of conflict because I always had. Well, I had sports and I had other things. So it's. It was kind of. My mom was a. My mom's a little bit of a rebel, but my dad is definitely a rule followers. It was always kind of a fun dynamic that, you know, between them. My mom Would. Would be like, don't worry about it. And my dad would be like, you need to.

Guest [00:38:56] You know.

John Dehlin [00:38:57] So you didn't attend Young Women?

Michelle Stone [00:38:59] Not very often, because I always had basketball practice or games or soccer or a musical I was in or. You know, I was very active in a lot of activities I just wasn't able to attend.

John Dehlin [00:39:10] So basketball, soccer, I did everything.

Michelle Stone [00:39:14] Yeah, I was the athlete of the year every year throughout college. I mean, throughout high school.

John Dehlin [00:39:18] Oh, really? At Olymp.

Michelle Stone [00:39:20] But at Evergreen Junior High and then Olympus. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:25] That's like three minutes from my house. Yeah. Yeah. That's so fun.

Guest [00:39:28] Yeah, that's fun.

Michelle Stone [00:39:29] And then I. And then I also did ensemble and dance company, and so I was just always really, really busy.

John Dehlin [00:39:34] What about seminary?

Michelle Stone [00:39:35] I did seminary.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] And did y' all do family meeting, family prayer, scripture study?

Michelle Stone [00:39:41] Tried. Yeah, tried. You know, like.

Guest [00:39:43] Like, they.

Michelle Stone [00:39:44] They wanted to. It's hard when you have it, and I'm kind of at that stage now. I was at the tail end of the family, and I was so good at those things when I was a young mom. Really faithful. And now you just kind of change, you know, when. When you raise a big family, your priorities kind of change, and the kids are kind of different, and it's just a different upbringing that, like, I'm a very different mom to my younger kids than it was to my older kids.

John Dehlin [00:40:06] Did you say your dad was a bishop? Okay, so that's. I mean, how many kids? Nine kids and a bishop and running a business as an entrepreneur. That's a lot.

Michelle Stone [00:40:16] It was. It was a lot.

John Dehlin [00:40:18] What year did you graduate from high school?

Michelle Stone [00:40:19] 94.

John Dehlin [00:40:20] 94. Okay. I'm trying to get that in my timeline. Okay, 94. So how would you describe your testimony as you're graduating from high school?

Michelle Stone [00:40:32] Oh, that's a really good question. I think. I think I was a strange dichotomy. I just always have wanted to learn, so I loved talking to people with different religious ideas or of different religions. I loved exploring. And I.

Michelle Stone [00:40:49] I don't. And some things about Mormonism bothered me, you know, But I. So I. I don't know, but I would say I had. It's funny that I am having a hard time answering that. I think I had a testimony. I went to girls camp and. And for my testimony, you know, But I think generally I've been more connected to God than necessarily the religion do, you know, like, I. Like when. When my faith deconstructed, which it's done a couple of times, like, at the very bottom, I Was like, what do I know for sure? And for me, that's the existence of God. I know God. I know God's voice. I don't deconstruct below that for my personal experience.

John Dehlin [00:41:30] Okay.

Michelle Stone [00:41:30] But everything else, I kind of am like, okay, God, like, what do you

Guest [00:41:34] want me to do?

Michelle Stone [00:41:34] You know, I'm willing to. I'm willing to be curious about a lot of things.

John Dehlin [00:41:40] Okay. So now as I'm trying to put this timeline together, you say Mark Hoffman was a family member of yours. You would have been living in the area where at least one of the bombings happened and you would have been alive during the time Mark Hoffman was kind of caught exploding bombs and ultimately jail.

Michelle Stone [00:42:01] Oh, yeah. Did you have more questions?

Guest [00:42:03] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:42:03] How old were you?

Michelle Stone [00:42:04] I have, I have vague. That's what I was going to say. I have vague. Young, very young elementary school memories. Do you remember when Salt Lake downtown flooded and there were the bridges that they, the wooden bridges, weren't there boats

John Dehlin [00:42:15] going down like Main Street?

Michelle Stone [00:42:17] I don't remember that, but I remember with my mom holding her hand, walking across the bridges on the way home from the recording studio. Right. I remember that and I remember Mark Hoffman the same way. Just like little vague images because I don't think I was over eight years old and.

John Dehlin [00:42:29] Okay, so that didn't register for you

Michelle Stone [00:42:31] as a thing I watched. I do remember heartache. I do remember heartache because he was family. Well, his mother and father were. I'm. I'm sorry, I'm a little close to tears.

John Dehlin [00:42:43] We love emotions here.

Michelle Stone [00:42:45] His, his mother and father were beloved in the family and there.

Guest [00:42:49] And it really. That broke his dad.

Michelle Stone [00:42:52] His mind kind of broke and he was never the same and didn't live much longer.

Guest [00:42:58] And then I know that Aunt Lou, everyone has just had, you know, it was more just like the horror for that this happened, you know, and for

Michelle Stone [00:43:08] those parents especially where his dad had defended it, had believed him and offended him and you know, that's a, that's a. I think that's where the tragedy was for us. Not, I mean, not to minimize the huge tragedy for the Metcalfe and the Christiansen's and that, you know, like, not to minimize that at all because I think, think that tragedy was, was weighing on everyone. There was just also this personal element.

John Dehlin [00:43:28] Shirts, right?

Michelle Stone [00:43:29] No, no, Yeah, I won't get all the names right. But, but, but this, but it was close to home with his parents because his dad was a beloved uncle. He taught all of my siblings to water ski. He'd take him out on the lake and be so patient with them and, you know, so there were a lot of personal connections there. Yeah. My oldest sister has much better memories of it than I do.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] Really quickly. Is there a theory in the family about what happened to Mark? Like, I always wondered whether he started uncovering problematic church history, was mad at the church for being misled, and then was trying to get back at the church with all the fraud, you know, with all the forgeries and everything to embarrass the church. But are there any theories in the family lore about, like, what happened to him?

Michelle Stone [00:44:18] Yeah, and I'm probably. I hope I don't upset any of my family members by speaking about this, because I'm sure, you know, my understanding from those who knew him is that he was just a really bad guy from.

John Dehlin [00:44:31] From young. Okay.

Michelle Stone [00:44:32] He was just a kind of a. I don't. I don't want to throw words around, but he lacked empathy, and, you know, he just seemed kind of like a psychopath and narcissist. There's a story that they tell that my sister told me that she remembered. So my handicapped sister that passed away, Janae, you know, she was, I think Mark's age. My older sister was a little older. And they were. They would go up to Bear Lake for family reunions every year before.

Michelle Stone [00:44:55] Before my time. But Mark had a metal detector, and he was getting convincing all of the kids that there was treasure in the sand because it would beep every time he would go. So all of the kids, you know, I don't know if there were 50 kids or what, but they were excitedly digging, and they just kept digging in that hot sun, not playing in the water, not going on the boat. They were digging and digging, and he'd come over and put it in the hole and.

Michelle Stone [00:45:16] And it would beep and, you know, and they end, and they were exhausted. My handicapped sister was out there digging, and, you know, and then after they had spent the entire day and he had goaded them on, he just laughed at their faces and showed them that he had been pushing the button manually and manipulating it. And that was pretty. That's something that several of my family members still talk about or, you know, remember, because it was so strange. And then there are several other stories like that that it's just like, this is a very troubled person that likes to cause pain and doesn't have empathy.

Guest [00:45:50] And.

Michelle Stone [00:45:51] And I know that I've. I think it's in the silmarillion.

Guest [00:45:53] Is that.

Michelle Stone [00:45:53] No, I'm the. The. Oh, what's the book that was written about him. I know that there are theories that he discovered his post manifesto, grandparents, and that's what said. No, not at all. We knew that was his grandparents. Right. Like. Like I hear a lot of stories that I just don't think make sense at all. And so I. You know, he went to England on his mission already knowing what. He was already buying books, so the old. The old paper. So I just think he was. I mean, it's hard to understand how there are people like that, but that's my understanding of it.

John Dehlin [00:46:23] I said. I said shirts, but I meant sheets, so. Kathleen Sheets.

Michelle Stone [00:46:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] It was one of his two victims along with Stephen Christensen. Sorry, I got that wrong. Okay. Sounds like he would just. Born without empathy, you know, Maybe that's

Michelle Stone [00:46:39] how it appears to me.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [00:46:40] From the store, from the family stories. I know.

John Dehlin [00:46:42] Yeah. Okay. So if I think about the 80s and 90s. Oh, really quickly, there's a couple comments. So all those opposed says, me too. 1994. Me too. I played basketball against her.

Michelle Stone [00:47:00] We did. So you know, she is one of my favorite follower.

Guest [00:47:03] She's.

Michelle Stone [00:47:04] She's in your community, but she is brilliant and beautiful and awesome and leaves the best comments. So we've got to get together and play some ball.

John Dehlin [00:47:10] Shout out to all those opposed.

Michelle Stone [00:47:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:12] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [00:47:13] Love her.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] Somebody wrote. If Michelle wrote an autobiography, she could call it Michelle Stone rolling. That's a.

Guest [00:47:20] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:47:21] That's a comment someone made. And then also Coach, I know you just did a interview with Colch. Colch said Michelle is a good person. Thanks for having me having her on, John. So shout out from Colts from the cultural hall.

Michelle Stone [00:47:33] I love coach.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] Yeah. Okay. So when I think about the 80s and 90s and this would have probably not been in your mind, but the 80s was kind of the rise of sunstone and. And dialogue hitting its stride. And then 93 would have been the. The September 6th excommunications. That's. You know, the last year I was at byu. You just made the sign. What?

Guest [00:47:56] I just.

Michelle Stone [00:47:56] Yeah, that was all. I went to BYU in 94. Did.

Guest [00:48:00] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [00:48:00] Like. Like I was just excited to go to school. So busy with all my stuff I wasn't aware of. I don't think I was aware of any of those things happening.

John Dehlin [00:48:07] So all the. The Tanners. Had you learned about the Tanners? Oh, I knew.

Michelle Stone [00:48:11] I knew the anti Mormon literature. Stay away from anti Mormon literature. And I don't know when I knew the name Gerald and Sandra Tanner, but maybe I did, you know.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] And were you taught growing up that the church, I guess you would have known in your family lore that you had ancestors who practiced polygamy. Would you have been taught any narrative about how. How polygamy started in the church or, you know, when it started with who it started, like up through high school, were you taught anything?

Michelle Stone [00:48:45] So, so my. It's hard to go back and know for sure what my mindset is, but I don't remember ever not knowing that Joseph. Joseph originated polygamy. I hadn't studied Section 132, but I knew it was there, and I knew it was polygamy, and I knew it was from Joseph Smith. So I never had any reason. And polygamy in my paradigm was a positive thing. Was the higher law. Right. So it would have been strange if it hadn't come from Joseph.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] Okay, so your, Your understanding from a young age was that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy?

Michelle Stone [00:49:18] I think so, yeah. If I, If I ever thought about it or questioned it and that whole

John Dehlin [00:49:23] explanation that, like, there were more women than men on the plains and that that's why there was polygamy, because there were women who didn't have husbands and that kind of thing. Was that ever told to you?

Michelle Stone [00:49:36] I don't know. I don't, I don't. I mean, I'm probably in seminary, but I don't know if it was in my family. Yeah, you know, probably just like everybody else, you learn that this was necessary for a time because of. Which is a very frustrating narrative to me.

John Dehlin [00:49:52] Would you have been told about any of Joseph Smith's alleged plural wives?

Michelle Stone [00:49:56] Probably not. I don't think I knew any of the details, but I don't think I knew any of the details of Brigham Young either. I don't, you know, I didn't know the details of my ancestors, except just those stories I heard about my. My grandmother.

John Dehlin [00:50:07] Okay. How was byu?

Michelle Stone [00:50:09] It was great. It was. It was fun. I was. I went and, you know, killed it. Did really well. Was on full scholarship.

John Dehlin [00:50:17] Is this your husband chosen?

Michelle Stone [00:50:19] Is my husband.

John Dehlin [00:50:19] Wait, who you? Did you. You were on scholarship?

Michelle Stone [00:50:22] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:23] So did you leave sports behind and just do academics?

Michelle Stone [00:50:26] Yeah, I wanted to play. I wanted to play basketball, but I got a scholarship almost everywhere but byu, but I wanted to go to byu, so I just went and did intramural and. And, you know, did. Did the sports, and then I actually ended up. Well, my first year, I just did all of the academic ges while I decided, and then I ended up majoring in music, dance, theater. So kind of a jack of all trades that I went from sports to music and dance.

John Dehlin [00:50:51] That's a tough major.

Michelle Stone [00:50:52] It is.

John Dehlin [00:50:53] It's demanding, right?

Michelle Stone [00:50:54] It is competitive, yes.

BYU Years, Marriage, and Early Family Life

John Dehlin [00:50:56] Did you perform in any of the musicals at byu?

Michelle Stone [00:50:58] Oh, yeah. I mean, we were in the.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] Which ones?

Michelle Stone [00:51:00] Diong and the H Vac. Oh, I'll have to remember. I know. I was in Jane Eyre. I was in. Nonsense. I was. Oh, I'll have to go back and. And see what. What. All of.

John Dehlin [00:51:10] All of them were singing roles as well as drama. Dramatic roles.

Michelle Stone [00:51:14] Yeah, we did all dancing and singing and acting. It's all three combined.

John Dehlin [00:51:19] Do you have favorite musicals? I have to ask. Broadway musicals.

Michelle Stone [00:51:21] You know what's funny? I am. I am a horrible fan. Like, I play every sport, but I don't watch sports. And I always loved performing and singing, but I. I actually have just been so busy with my kids. I don't go to a lot of shows, and I don't keep up with it.

Guest [00:51:36] Okay.

Michelle Stone [00:51:37] And so. And I chose my major. This is. This is something that I've. I don't want to say I regret, but I chose my major to be around being a mom. I plan to be a mom. So I can do a studio. I can teach.

Guest [00:51:49] I can.

Michelle Stone [00:51:50] You know, where I was, I was really good at a lot of things. And it might have been. It might have been fun for me to have somebody to tell me, hey, what would you think of pursuing this? I mean, that major was awesome. It has served me well. But I do have a little bit of regret around that.

John Dehlin [00:52:07] So anything notable about your time at byu? Is that where you met your husband, got married?

Michelle Stone [00:52:13] Yep. I had planned. I did not want to get married. I wanted to graduate, get a master's, go on a mission, then get married because I was so cool. And then I did. I. This was one of those experiences. I did not even want to date anymore because it was hard at byu because I didn't want to get married. And, you know, there are a lot of return missionaries at BYU that do

Guest [00:52:34] want to get married.

Michelle Stone [00:52:35] So anyway, I didn't want to date any more return missionaries till I got on a mission. But I ended up saying yes when my husband asked me out because I couldn't think of an excuse. And then on that date, I knew I was going to marry him, and it kind of made me mad. But within a week and a half, I was sold. So, yeah, I was sold on him. And we got married a couple months later.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] Again, what age?

Michelle Stone [00:52:56] I was 20 and he was 24.

John Dehlin [00:52:58] Okay.

Michelle Stone [00:52:58] He graduated from Utah State actually.

John Dehlin [00:53:00] Oh, he's an Aggie.

Michelle Stone [00:53:01] He is an Aggie, yes. A very dedicated Aggie. He. It was, it was against his religion to marry a cougar, but yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] Okay, so yeah, so tell us just about your early family.

Michelle Stone [00:53:17] So, yeah, so I was at BYU and then ended up. As soon as we got married, I just felt there is a baby that's supposed to come and you know, anyway, I ended up having two little boys a year and a half apart and then ended up 18 months later, a year and a half later having birth control twins. So we had four babies under three, four in diapers together and it was like full bore motherhood all at once. Which actually I look at that as kind of a.

Michelle Stone [00:53:48] I always put so much into anything that I did that in a way it was kind of like, okay, God knows me and knows that I have to do this all out or so. So yeah, that's. I ended up not graduating because I had a baby and I couldn't go put him in daycare to go dance nine hours a day on campus. So if I had chosen a different major, I would have graduated, but I couldn't in MDT with, with a baby I could have, but I, I couldn't justify going and taking the dance classes I had left.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] Oh, okay, so you didn't finish. Started having kids?

Michelle Stone [00:54:21] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:54:22] Yeah. And so what was, you know, what was your family kind of your child raising years like for you and for the church?

Michelle Stone [00:54:31] So I was. Okay. So then I became extremely dedicated to the church. I, I loved, I've always loved learning, but I, I began to just delve deeply into the scriptures and I really loved the feeling, I still love the feeling of gaining an insight in the scriptures. That's one of the things that is just like what is it Del?

Michelle Stone [00:54:55] To, to my soul, you know, I, so I, so I, I studied my scriptures a lot and, and I had the impression, I felt inspired to homeschool my kids. So did motherhood like full out and, and kept having children and really I came to a point where I actually really was struggling in the church because we lived in a neighborhood in Draper where I had, I think, I think I had my sixth. While we were there I had a couple of miscarriages as well and, and I had four callings all at the same time with my young family and felt like, like I really kind of felt like I broke at that point with the demands and the, you know, it was just too much.

Michelle Stone [00:55:39] I, it was like this is taking so much more from my family than it's giving, and I can't. You know, I. I felt kind of broken at. At that point. And then I also.

John Dehlin [00:55:50] This is at what age this would

Michelle Stone [00:55:52] have been when I was approaching 30. Okay, getting close to 30.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] And how many kids?

Michelle Stone [00:55:56] Well, let me see. I better do the math. Maybe a little younger than that. I had my six. She's 18 now, so. Yeah, so I would have been 28, something like that.

John Dehlin [00:56:06] So you were starting to feel like you were breaking.

Michelle Stone [00:56:09] It just. Was it just trying? It was. It was just a hard situation where we were living. I. And I was so conservative. I didn't want my children watching tv. I didn't want them eating candy. I didn't want them. You know, I really wanted to, like, raise them this perfect way. And it felt like they would go to church and be shown videos and eat candy, and I was running myself ragged trying to fill all these. I think at the same time, I was the young women's sports coordinator. I was the Cub Scout committee chair. I was asked to run a monthly mother and cat class.

Michelle Stone [00:56:42] It was when they changed to the new enrichment night, or really for society, whatever it was. And in addition to being a relief society. Oh, and then. And then I was being asked to substitute primary every single week. So it was. It was like, that shouldn't happen. It was too much. And I didn't have very understanding leadership. They were just kind of like, well, I've served in many callings, you know, so that was a. That was a rough time. And then at the same time, I didn't feel like I was being spiritually fed. Like I wanted to be. So. So I kind of had a.

Michelle Stone [00:57:12] It was just challenging where I just wanted more spiritually, but less. Less demanded of me at that time. You know, if I. I've grown so much now. If I. If I now were to go back to that period, I would handle it completely differently. I just didn't know that you could say, oh, that doesn't work for me. Sorry, really peacefully, and be like, yeah, thanks for the offer. I'll. I'll stick with this one calling I have. You know, I really thought that you accept callings and you, you know, so

First Faith Crisis and Spiritual Struggles

John Dehlin [00:57:45] how did you work through that hard time?

Michelle Stone [00:57:48] Well, actually, I. Oh, this is. This is a good question. So I. I kind of. I kind of say I had a reverse faith crisis because I was struggling so much before. Because also, in addition to feeling so many demands, I also felt like.

Michelle Stone [00:58:07] How do I explain it? I was so invested in the scriptures. I studied them all the Time. I loved them. I know. I know. You talk about scrupulosity. I don't think I would identify as scrupulosity at all because I don't have ocd. And it wasn't out of anxiety. It was out of desire and love and wanting to learn, right? And so I was learning so many things. And I think that's just one of my spiritual gifts, is seeing things in the scriptures that I want to share and having insights and, you know, so I'd go to church so excited to share what I had learned, wanting to hear other people's. And it just felt like. Like this, this is it.

Guest [00:58:40] And.

Michelle Stone [00:58:41] And I felt like if we are the one true church and we have the priesthood and the temple, then this is God's a team. This should be God's a team. And we, when we come together to discuss the scriptures, it should be like, next level, and instead it's this. And. And it was actually like, it sounds funny to talk about, but it was painfully disappointing. I was starving for spiritual nourishment and being able to share insights and gain insights, and my poor husband, because I'd come home from church just crying week after week when I would hear things taught that I did not believe were true and think, you know, oh, I mean, all kinds of things, right?

Michelle Stone [00:59:25] Or sometimes it seemed like the lesson was much more about the teacher being impressive than about the subject matter. I just. I loved the scriptures and felt like we weren't taking them quite seriously enough. So for me, actually, when I. And then also reading the Book of Mormon, I kept getting some messages from the Book of Mormon that felt really profound to me, and I didn't see anybody else talking about them. So it was when I started studying church history the first time that I kind of realized, oh, oh, the church has some problems. Oh, I'm expecting too much. It's not what I thought it was.

Michelle Stone [00:59:58] Oh, I'm okay. I was more okay at that point that when I learned some of the problems. Problems of church history, because it solved that massive cognitive dissonance I was struggling with at that time where I felt like the church should be so much more and I had way too high of expectations.

John Dehlin [01:00:13] Well, I'm torn about that because, I mean, if this is the one true church and if the stakes are as high as kind of the plan of salvation suggests, then we should be taking all this super seriously and really focused and committed and dedicated. And there's always this idea that milk before meat, but that implies you eventually get to the meat. So there's I think we're all primed to believe that at some point we will get to the meat and so to thirst for knowledge and truth. I think that's very Mormon.

Michelle Stone [01:00:42] Yeah, yeah. And I also, I have to say, I think that we go through different phases of our life. You would know more as a psychologist than, you know, this is just my perception. But also I think that at that point I tended to be a little more critical. I saw kind of the things that were not right. And it took me a little bit more growth to realize, oh, everyone is people and look at those amazing people and those amazing people. Do you know what I mean? So I think, I think looking back, I was, I agree with you that, that man, we could really up the level, you know, But I, but I have met so many people who do that, who are really inspired and inspiring.

Michelle Stone [01:01:23] I've been to a lot of incredible lessons in addition to some that are, you know, ho hum, whatever they are. So, so I've, I've, I've gained a different perspective now where I am much more aware of the good and the bad. Whereas I think at that point I was really kind of, not intentionally, but just really focused on the things that were hard around.

John Dehlin [01:01:43] What year was this? Just approximately what was, was where kind of this first dip crisis.

Michelle Stone [01:01:50] Oh. Oh man. So, okay, we moved from Draper to highland when my 18 year old was about one. So about 17 years ago. Like, like what? 18? 18. It was, I mean it was a

John Dehlin [01:02:05] good couple of years. 2002, 2003.

Michelle Stone [01:02:08] It was several years.

John Dehlin [01:02:09] Did you start confronting kind of challenges to more mature truth claims at this point? Did that stuff entered your consciousness?

Michelle Stone [01:02:17] Well, yeah, I mean, I mean when you came on online, I started watching

John Dehlin [01:02:21] you like around 2005.

Michelle Stone [01:02:24] Well, I, okay, I could be wrong, but the first episode I remember watching live, I had watched a lot of recorded episodes, but I think the first one I remember watching live, if I'm remembering correctly, was your episode with Edward Kimball. Do you remember that?

John Dehlin [01:02:38] Yeah, and we didn't live stream, but we published that on YouTube so you would have.

Michelle Stone [01:02:42] And so I was watching before that. Whatever.

John Dehlin [01:02:44] Oh, wow. Okay. So you're tuning into more machine stories pretty early. Early on. Okay, so.

Michelle Stone [01:02:51] As well as, as well as reading a ton and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:55] So were you reading like signature books kind of books?

Michelle Stone [01:02:57] Well, I shouldn't, I was, I was still reading the scriptures heavily and I also, I think, I think that I, I would, I would read things that would make me think deeply. Right. So I really, I, I mentioned this on another conversation I had, I would tune into every, like, atheist versus theist debate I could find. I would tune into, you know, the. The. All of the debates about. Around epistemology and ways of knowing. And, you know, I just loved learning all of that. And once I was kind of opened up to, okay, what. What is this whole wide world of learning that we can have?

Michelle Stone [01:03:37] So, so in addition to listening to. To your podcast, and I think in those early years, if I'm not mistaken, but my impression was that you were very kind of neutral and open and seeking and not, you know, you were in a different space than you necessarily are now after some additional things have happened in those early years.

John Dehlin [01:03:53] Yeah, I mean, I was trying to help the church work through these difficult historical.

Michelle Stone [01:03:58] And trying to help people, I think, as well.

John Dehlin [01:04:00] I mean, I still feel that way, but I mean, at the time I was in the church trying to help the church from within. So.

Michelle Stone [01:04:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:07] Okay, so would you say in Those early to mid 2000s that you had a crisis of faith?

Michelle Stone [01:04:15] Well, and maybe. Maybe it's a little later than that, but no, it might have been. It would have been about then. And you know what? No, because my daughter, if she was 18, it would have been closer to 2006. Actually. She was 2006, 2007. I think we went back a little too far. So it would have been around that time period. And I would say, yes, I did. I mean, that was one of my. I've had several sort of deconstructions. That was one of them.

John Dehlin [01:04:38] Okay, but did you have, like, a dark night of the soul at that point where you're wondering if the church is even true?

Michelle Stone [01:04:46] Well, that had happened before. Like I said, I had had all that cognitive dissonance going. Why is the reality so different from what it should be? And so when I, When I realized, oh, we have problems in our history, it actually, it actually eased that. That struggle for me because I was like, oh, okay, it's okay if we are. Aren't what I expect.

John Dehlin [01:05:07] So what were some of the problems you were wrestling with in the church's history during that time period?

Michelle Stone [01:05:14] Now what. What do you mean? I. So I was wrestling with my expectation of being filled with the spirit. So. So I didn't wrestle with church history as much. Like when I started reading things about Brigham Young or. Or those different things, I was kind of like, like, oh, okay, okay, that explains it.

John Dehlin [01:05:31] Okay, so like, we're talking pre CS letter here, Early Mormon stories days. You weren't wondering about Book of Abraham or no Book of Mormon historicity.

Michelle Stone [01:05:41] I mean, I had the question. I knew the Book of Mormon historicity questions. I don't think I was into the Book of Abraham yet. Probably to some extent, but not like you.

John Dehlin [01:05:50] You were you putting stuff on your shelf, historical stuff on your shelf at that point.

Guest [01:05:53] Point.

Michelle Stone [01:05:53] I. I think. I think I was really, really busy with my family.

John Dehlin [01:05:57] That makes sense.

Michelle Stone [01:05:58] And. And listening and fitting it in around when I could, you know, doing the dishes, listening to things.

John Dehlin [01:06:03] It was kind of that Mormon mom with young kids haze.

Michelle Stone [01:06:08] Yeah, it lasts.

John Dehlin [01:06:10] And I have 15 years, 20 years

Michelle Stone [01:06:12] for me, because I. So I have 13 children. Right. And so it's been a lot of years.

John Dehlin [01:06:17] Oh, wow.

Michelle Stone [01:06:17] Raising children and what.

John Dehlin [01:06:20] Why 13? Like, was there doctrinal teaching behind that?

Michelle Stone [01:06:26] So my husband and I, when we dated, like, I don't. So I have inherited just this legacy of motherhood from my great grandmother. My grandmother. My mom just loved being moms. I always was really good with kids, loved kids. And when I dated my husband and he said he wanted seven or eight, I. I think he said eight, but he said that he wanted seven. I was like, awesome. You know, I. It was never a specific decision. So we planned to have seven or eight, but. But it was funny. I just always, like I said, I have been one that has felt like. Like when.

Michelle Stone [01:06:59] That I didn't plan to have a first baby right. So quickly when we got married, but I just felt like there is a baby that's supposed to come, you know, and then we had the twin twins, and then I've had several miscarriages, but it would just be when I felt like there is a baby that's supposed to come. And then we also like tmi, but we've never had. For a variety of reasons, we've never had a good and reliable form of birth control. I don't want to say that, to say we regret having so many children, but it's just like, we had several that were like, oh, okay, I guess that's happening now as well.

Michelle Stone [01:07:34] But I can share a story if that's okay. So I actually don't have easy pregnancies. People often think, oh, he must. I have really quite terrible pregnancies. And when I had my 11th, I actually had, like, really an identity crisis because there were people that did not. I mean, it's an unusual amount of children. So there's a lot of judgment that comes at you, and some of it was very personal and difficult. So anyway, I was really struggling, struggling with it, and I just had this profound Answer where? The Lord kind of healed me and just showed me how much joy this baby would bring and how happy I was to be having this baby.

Michelle Stone [01:08:12] And then said, and the next baby will bring just as much joy. So I was like, okay, I guess we're having a 12th, right? So that was my plan. And then my 11th ended up having health problems, and we spent several months in and out of the hospital and then with home care not knowing if we would get to keep him. And that was challenging because I had 10 other children. So being in the hospital for extended periods and, you know, it was really challenging. And I remember just like, when I would be able to go out and walk or run, I would just say, lord, I know you promised more joy, but I'm all joyed up.

Michelle Stone [01:08:46] We're done. Like, if you wanted me to have another one, you should have said, sent a healthy one, you know? And so I hope this story is okay. I know people are going to hear this all through their own ears. I just have to share my experience, right? But he had really severe health problems. And when night when I was holding him and trying to take care of him and comfort, and he was just in pain a lot.

Guest [01:09:08] And I. I just prayed like I always. But I was like, lord, is there anything I can do? And, like, what can I do to help him? Because he was just not improving. And.

Michelle Stone [01:09:23] And I just had this understanding that his job is to make sure his friend gets to come.

Guest [01:09:29] And so it felt to me like he couldn't settle into his body all the way somehow.

Michelle Stone [01:09:33] I know this will sound crazy to

Guest [01:09:34] people, but that was what I felt. He can't fully settle into his body

Michelle Stone [01:09:38] because it's his job to make sure his friend gets to come. So I said, lord, if I promise to do everything in my power to

Guest [01:09:44] have this next baby, can he be healed? And. And from that day on, he was. It was like, it felt to me completely miraculous. He started improving, he started gaining weight.

Michelle Stone [01:09:56] His painful episodes started to completely minimize. And anyway, and so it was hard for us to have our number 12 because there was more controversy and adversary and disapproval and judgment. It's so funny. We know as a society not to tell someone, when are you having children? But we somehow don't know not to say, hey, you have enough children. Stop having children. You know, we're allowed to judge on that side. So anyway, we ended up finally getting pregnant and having our 12th that I felt like we were told to have. And then when she was just about two months old, I learned that she had an undiagnosed heart condition that they had missed. She didn't have the left half of her heart and so she ended up passing away.

Personal Trials and Grief

Guest [01:10:46] And that was actually. Sorry. She was awesome. That was hard because I had to grapple with the possibility that this God I had loved my whole life was actually cruel to tell me to have this baby, you know, but, but actually that didn't. There were so. There are so many parts of this story that I'm not telling you. My daughter in law got pregnant right before we did. So it was really hard to get pregnant because we're doing that whole, whole hey, we're pregnant at the same time. But there were so many answers and she was amazing. Her baby, her ultrasound, her baby was diagnosed with a heart condition and they had to go to the specialist the next day.

Guest [01:11:27] We all fasted and prayed and the next day her baby's heart was fine. And they were like, we don't know what you were seeing. And my baby's heart on the ultrasound seemed fine. But you know, so, so it felt, I mean, there's more to the story, but when I was holding my little girl after she had passed away and I looked back and saw my daughter in law holding her little girl with my husband, my son with his arm around her, I just thought like, I wouldn't trade, I wouldn't want it to be theirs instead of mine, you know, So I, so I felt purpose in it in a way.

Guest [01:12:02] And then, and then, then it was a mess because my youngest baby had passed away. Like I have seven boys and this is my little girl, you know, and, and it was really, really hard and I was a complete mess. So finally one day I felt like the Lord just calmed the sea. Like, like it was just this raging storm for months of what do I do? How do I fix this? What? You know, like it's, it's quite a thing to lose a nursing baby because you don't, you can't even sleep to get away from it. You know, you get up multiple times in the night to go to that baby empty crib.

Michelle Stone [01:12:41] Sorry.

Guest [01:12:43] So anyway, when the, so one day the Lord, I felt it just calm the sea. And it was just the words were, you don't know what you want, but I know what you want. And if you trust me, I'll give you what you want. And I just said, okay, okay, you know, like whatever it's going to be. Because I couldn't imagine ending on a loss like our last baby died and that's it. And you know, and Somehow in my mind, I think you think it will fix something to have another one. But the thought of facing another pregnancy about did me. And I was in my mid-40s and. And pregnancies are really hard, you know, and so when the. And then I just. The worst outcome I could imagine is

Michelle Stone [01:13:26] a little boy with down syndrome, because

Guest [01:13:28] I already have seven boys and, you know, and down syndrome is the worst thing you can imagine. It's an older moment, mom. So. But we ended up getting pregnant again, and. And I was like, okay, it's what I want. The Lord told me, whatever it is,

Michelle Stone [01:13:38] it's what I want.

Guest [01:13:39] And so. And, you know, the world was strange. My first little girl passed away in 2020.

Michelle Stone [01:13:45] And then now this was 2021.

Guest [01:13:47] And. And I really.

John Dehlin [01:13:49] Four years ago.

Guest [01:13:51] Yeah, and I had really Having. Losing a child in 2020 in the hospitals was not a good experience. There were some really horrific things that happened that left me, you know, like. Like, quite traumatized. And so I knew, like, with my LA. My 13th, I just knew I needed an ultrasound and I needed medical care. And because I had been so traumatized with 2020, I couldn't wear a mask. And I know that may sound extreme, but if people understood the story, they might understand a little more, you know, and so. So I wasn't able to wear a mask. I just was not to able. Not doing great.

Guest [01:14:30] So I was refused medical care by. I called something like 20 doctors, even, like. Like reaching out to my Stake Relief Society president, whose husband was a doctor. You know, they just all said, sorry, there's nothing we can do. And so I ended up finally being able to go just to some guy's basement and get an ultrasound, you know, some guy that had a machine. And.

Guest [01:14:51] And my husband and I, on our own studying, realized that she had what's called Edwards syndrome, based on the. Which is like down syndrome is the good one, because the babies live. You know, there are worse ones. And that was the point where I had been told, you don't know what you want, but if you trust me, I'll give you what you want. And. And now I was pregnant with a baby that we didn't get to keep another little girl. And that was when I really did have to face the horrible possibility that.

Guest [01:15:24] That we're in a universe where God is a monster, you know, where God would do this like twice, tell me to have a baby. And I. Even when I got pregnant again that 13th time, I hadn't expected to have to grieve again, but feeling in my Body. The price I had paid for my little Avonlea was my first little girl at the house. And feeling again that I was paying that price. But even paying that price wouldn't bring her back.

Guest [01:15:53] You know, I kind of knew that. I don't know. So I found myself in this horrible reality where it was suffering in this pregnancy with a baby we didn't get to keep, and there was no way out, and I could do. And trapped in this universe with where God could do something like this.

Guest [01:16:13] And so I. I had to grapple with that for a while. And at the same time, if I told you the things that happened and during those years, I don't know why, but for some reason, that was just like. I was dealing with nine things at the same time. Any one of which wipes somebody out. You know, we had huge things happen. My. My husband and I were not doing well. Our marriage was ending. We were leaving the church. I was leaving the church. We had family estrangement on both sides. Just 2020 and 2021 were hard years,

Michelle Stone [01:16:40] you know, leaving the church.

Guest [01:16:42] Oh, yeah, I.

Michelle Stone [01:16:44] Like.

Guest [01:16:44] Like two really hard times in the

Michelle Stone [01:16:47] church for me were 2015 and 2020 with just different way things were handled. You know, the experience I had in 2020 did not work well with how the church was handling things for me.

John Dehlin [01:16:57] Do you want it? Well, I don't want to pass over the. The passing of your children.

Guest [01:17:02] Yeah, it just was. I felt like. I felt like.

Michelle Stone [01:17:07] Well, and I don't know if we need to get into this. Just my perspective was mine, you know,

Guest [01:17:11] I'm not saying I'm right. It was just when I read the Scriptures, Jesus cared for the sick, and we have all of these miracles of healing.

Michelle Stone [01:17:18] And I. You know, I was troubled by the church's response. It just seemed troubling to me.

John Dehlin [01:17:23] And the November 2015 policy.

Michelle Stone [01:17:26] Well.

Guest [01:17:26] Well, that.

Michelle Stone [01:17:27] That had been a previous one, but also in 2020, it was just. It was just hard for me because I had been so traumatized in the hospital. Anyway, I'm. I'm.

John Dehlin [01:17:36] Oh. So the church's response to Covid was the second strike to your testimony?

Guest [01:17:44] It was it there.

Michelle Stone [01:17:45] I have faced a couple of different

Guest [01:17:47] times where I didn't think I could stay, where I just was like, I'm done, you know, And. And one of them was around 2015. And what happened those years combined with

Michelle Stone [01:17:58] some other more personal experiences that happened, where I felt like I experienced some ecclesiastical abuse and I could. You know, I couldn't find a way to stay at that point.

Guest [01:18:06] Until, I mean, that was one of the times.

Michelle Stone [01:18:09] And then in 2020, I was like, okay, we're done, we're done. You know?

John Dehlin [01:18:13] Are those things you prefer not to talk about?

Guest [01:18:16] I don't know.

Michelle Stone [01:18:17] We can, we can. I'll finish this story. Maybe we can go back into there. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:21] Yeah, Perfect.

Guest [01:18:21] Yeah. And I.

Michelle Stone [01:18:22] Maybe I've gone into this story too much.

Guest [01:18:23] It just the thing I wanted to. Yeah. Like, I guess I was just saying during these years, I don't know why I'm.

Michelle Stone [01:18:29] You're a psychologist, John, and I'm in this chair, so I'm just, just unleashing. But we were, we were dealing with a lot.

Guest [01:18:35] I was.

Michelle Stone [01:18:35] My son got engaged. I was pregnant with a baby we didn't get to keep. I was still grieving my previous baby.

Guest [01:18:42] We had a son attempt suicide. We had a son have a 15 foot fall and land on the side of his head on the trembling bar that we were nursing him from a pretty good tbi. We, you know, it just was. My husband had three surgeries during that time. It was just like unbelievable, unbelievably intense job stuff. I mean, it felt like I was, I was just like, like I just was waving the white flag. I was like, I have babies on both sides. This baby doesn't get to stay and I'll just go with her is kind of what I thought at that point. It was, it was a lot, you know, but one day I think I was 15 weeks along when we found out about my little girl and her name was Avery.

Guest [01:19:29] And the organization, the support organization for Edward syndrome is called Avery's Angels. You know, so we really just felt little, little signs along the way. But one day when I was just really struggling and I. That reality of that God might be cruel while I'm dealing with these different things was challenging, you know, like, is this all just a horrific joke? You know, and, and I just had a conduit open and it just showed me my life going forward without any details with my little, my little boy, my little 11th as my youngest. And I just had this realization because I don't. I knew like my two little girls always wanted to be together.

Guest [01:20:17] They always were supposed to be together. And that had. Knowing that had kind of comforted me. Previously. I'd had an experience where both of my little girls came to while I was pregnant and, and let me know. They were always supposed to be sisters. They always wanted to be together, you know, So I thought, okay, we won't have Heavenly, but we'll have Avery. And Avonlea's always with Avery, so we will always have Avery with us, you know. But then when I learned that we weren't keeping Avery, it meant something different.

Guest [01:20:42] But I just kind of realized they always were supposed to be together. They always wanted to be sisters. I was supposed to be their mom. And. And the Lord just showed me this path and said, this is what you want. Like on the, you know, on the grand scale, this is exactly what. What you want. Like, my belief is that we, you know, we wanted things before we came here. We had things to accomplish. And for years in my motherhood, I had known there were things I was supposed to say and things I was supposed to write. I didn't know what. I just knew that there were things I was supposed to do. And I actually kind of struck. Struggled to not be able to do things.

Michelle Stone [01:21:20] I was, you know, I was just

Guest [01:21:21] be told to have another baby. So. So that. That kind of felt like the first time of. Of the Lord saying, like, I know this is hard, but this is what you want, you know, and it really.

John Dehlin [01:21:33] It's what you want.

Guest [01:21:34] It was what I. It was what I want. The Lord said, this is what you want. And, and it actually. I knew it. Like, I knew that that was true, that he wanted. That I wanted, that I always.

Michelle Stone [01:21:43] He.

John Dehlin [01:21:43] He said, you wanted to lose two children.

Michelle Stone [01:21:46] It's not that I wanted to lose two children. It's that I wanted.

Guest [01:21:50] And this is the way they came. If we'd been able to keep my little number 12, we wouldn't have had her little sister, right? And once I felt how much they wanted to be together, I wanted them together, you know, I wanted.

John Dehlin [01:22:02] So maybe this was Heavenly Father's way of having them have a companionship in heaven while their families was still here on earth. And they wouldn't be alone. What, the first wouldn't be alone?

Michelle Stone [01:22:15] No, it was more. I mean, I don't. I don't think it was just. I just knew these two little girls were supposed to come this way. They were supposed to be my daughters

Guest [01:22:25] and they were supposed to just come

Michelle Stone [01:22:26] for a short time and I had

Guest [01:22:28] other work to do, you know, And. And I will share one more experience because. Well, anyway, I did have an experience with one of my little girls where my heart was so shattered and I was not okay, you know, like at the hospital before she passed away, she'd been ripped out of my arms and taken on the life flight while I was held from behind. And they didn't let me go so by myself because I didn't let my husband in. Within just a few minutes, I went from thinking my little girl was sick to learning she was going to die. And then immediately she was ripped out of my arms and flown to a hospital 45 minutes away that I wasn't allowed to go to. And they tried to keep me locked out of that. It's a long story. I'm like, this is a nursing baby. What is wrong?

John Dehlin [01:23:18] Primary Children's were they gonna take.

Guest [01:23:19] I was at. I was at Provo Hospital, and they flew her to Primary Children's, and I called my husband on the way there and said, go, go. If she's alone, you'll get there before I do. And so he got there before I did. So when I got there, like, I was. When I got there, they told me

Michelle Stone [01:23:31] I needed to go home and come

Guest [01:23:33] back in 24 hours. And. And, you know, I. I mean, there were a lot of things that were extremely challenging throughout that. I didn't go home. They called security, but then they let me in, you know, because, anyway, it was challenging. And so when she passed away and they needed to come and take her body, I couldn't.

Guest [01:23:54] Like, I'd been so traumatized by all of this that I couldn't let her go. So my husband was giving all of us blessings, and he said something about how much she loved me, which I. I had never thought of. I know. I know I love my baby, but I thought that she loved me, you know? I mean, you don't think about that with an infant. And so made me just think, where is she? Where? Like. Like, you know, and it was at that point that I.

Guest [01:24:23] That I saw her. Like, I know what she looks like, what her hair is like, how she walks, you know, and she just walked behind me. She. I mean, you know, I guess it's the stereotypical Mormon idea, you know, but it was my experience that I saw her and she walked behind me and wrapped her arms around me and kind of in. And just put my heart back together. Like, she just kind of healed my heart. And that changed everything. I was. I did, you know, Like. Like, that was a beautiful, beautiful experience, kids. And so I'm. I do feel very close to my little girls.

John Dehlin [01:25:04] I'm so sorry. Well, I mean, I don't know. I don't. It's not my place to say I'm sorry or offer, oh, no, please be sorry. Please be sorry.

Guest [01:25:11] Yes. It's not okay.

John Dehlin [01:25:13] I'm so sorry you had to lose those last two. I can't imagine I have four and I can't imagine losing one, let alone two. How many children survive right now?

Michelle Stone [01:25:26] 11. My other 11.

John Dehlin [01:25:28] Okay.

Michelle Stone [01:25:29] My youngest is seven. That little number.

Guest [01:25:31] 11 is.

John Dehlin [01:25:31] So 11 survived two. How many passed away?

Michelle Stone [01:25:35] Just those two. Just my two little girls.

John Dehlin [01:25:37] Okay. I'm so sorry. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for being vulnerable. That's so heartbreaking. I'm so sorry.

Guest [01:25:45] Thanks, John.

Michelle Stone [01:25:46] I appreciate that.

John Dehlin [01:25:48] Words can, can't be much, but that's, and that's so much trauma. I don't know if you, you said traumatic like it was. You've, you would probably, what you, I, I can't say you would meet criteria for a PTSD diagnosis, but I think what you have been through would certainly qualify as trauma.

Guest [01:26:15] Yes, Yes. I, I will say also on the other side of it, I have experienced the like incredible healing power of the Lord. That experience with my little girl really helped me. And then I also had, have had different experiences. I had a dream that healed a

Michelle Stone [01:26:35] big piece of it.

Guest [01:26:35] I like, I, I do feel like I did have ptsd. I really, really struggled during those years. But I, I, I don't feel like I do now. I feel like I'm, I can, I'm

Michelle Stone [01:26:50] not tormented by any of those things anymore.

John Dehlin [01:26:53] Wow.

Guest [01:26:54] I feel like I've really been. Yeah. I mean, and you know, I don't know the clinical terminology, but I have experienced the Lord's ability to heal.

John Dehlin [01:27:04] Do you think of it as the atonement? What do you think of it as? Is just the power of God?

Michelle Stone [01:27:09] Like again, I just think of it as my connection to God.

Guest [01:27:12] I don't, I don't know how I would define it. I just know that I have had experiences with God. I sometimes just incredible wisdom or, or, and just peace and you know, I've had those kinds of experiences several times.

Michelle Stone [01:27:28] So.

John Dehlin [01:27:30] I mean, what irony that you have these tragic deaths but also they bring forth these miraculous spiritual experiences for you that are life changing and healing? Like,

Guest [01:27:49] yeah, I guess. I mean I, yeah, like, like, I, I do. I just, those experiences have been good for me to like really deepen my faith in the goodness of God because I've seen, I've seen it repeatedly. I've seen what seemed like an unthinkable tragedy from a cruel God. Be given so much purpose, meaning and love and comfort. You know, like, like, I really, I really, it's, it's been good to have. No, I don't, like, I like to have no fear. I know that whatever happens, God can heal me.

John Dehlin [01:28:27] Oh. Like, I'm thinking about The. The philosophical exercise of. I think it's called the theodicy, where, like, how can God be all powerful and all loving? And then there's such suffering. And those of us maybe who haven't experienced the tragedy that you have philosophize about how can there be evil and terrible things in the world, but God still be loving and all powerful? And then we think about how we can make all that square or can, like, you kind of lived the theodicy horrific tragedy, and yet instead of saying there's no God or instead of saying God's evil, your conclusion after having the miraculous experiences is that God is incredibly loving in spite of the horrific things that happen to you with God in charge. Like, you're living.

Guest [01:29:19] Stated that very well. Yes. Yes. Like, I believe to my core in the goodness and the greatness of God. Oh, like, I've seen it too much. Constantly.

John Dehlin [01:29:30] Wow. Dang.

Guest [01:29:33] So.

John Dehlin [01:29:33] Well, thank you for sharing. And there's a. There's a gazillion very kind and complimentary comments coming. So the viewers and listeners are.

Guest [01:29:42] I. I will.

John Dehlin [01:29:43] Are touched and I appreciate that.

Guest [01:29:44] And I will go ahead and say. I know I. I get criticism for crying, and I just want to. Like, I never was a crier. Like, my husband has always teased me that when he proposed, he cried and I didn't. When we got married, he cried and I didn't. I never. But. But I am now. I. I'm much closer to tears than it used to be, and I think that's okay.

John Dehlin [01:30:05] We love all the emotions on Mormon stories, and crying is nothing to apologize for on Mormon stories, that's for sure. I don't. I want to show your story all the respect it deserves, but I do have a couple quick questions, if it's okay.

Michelle Stone [01:30:22] Sure.

Navigating Pro-Life Beliefs and Difficult Pregnancies

John Dehlin [01:30:23] So the. The one thing that came to my mind as you were telling the story was Saturday's Warrior and the narrative, because it's, you know, this is the play, the musical that. That was, you know, released in the 70s and it's got the Flinders family and they have all these kids. But. And there's, you know, there's this zero population song about, like, we should limit our posterity. But then the Flinders family has all these kids. I think their jokes about the. The mom being pregnant at her daughter's wedding. Guilty. Say it again.

Guest [01:30:56] Guilty.

John Dehlin [01:30:57] Yes.

Guest [01:30:58] On a mission. And. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:00] But also this idea that there are spirits in heaven before you. We were all in heaven as spirits before we came here. And maybe we agreed in heaven that certain children would be with certain Parents and there were understandings made and that if you don't have all the babies here, those spirits won't, you won't be fulfilling your promise to the baby spirits and, or those baby spirits will go to other non Mormon families and they won't have. Like, it's, it's sounding, your story feels very Mormonish to me.

Guest [01:31:36] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:31:36] And informed by either Mormon doctrine or Mormon culture. But like, it's sounding like you would have been heavily influenced by that to have so many children even into your mid-40s, by kind of traditional orthodox Mormon culture. So is that fair? Not fair?

Guest [01:31:58] No.

Michelle Stone [01:31:58] I actually don't resonate with that at all. And I can explain why. Like, so I was always too cool and I thought Saturday Warrior was cheesy and you know, and listen to me when my mom has all of her cheesy music that I love, you know, I like, I, I guess I just didn't ever really resonate with those ideas. And so for me, it wasn't at all about we need to have all the babies we can or we need. It was purely, I feel like there's a baby that's supposed to come in this moment. Do you know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:32:27] Like, like you feel like that wasn't a Mormon priming or Mormon influence. That was just you, you and your connection to the divine separate from Mormon culture, theology.

Michelle Stone [01:32:37] Well, I will, I will say this, that I've actually always been thankful that, that my mom has been so supportive of my family because I've taken like, in Mormonism, I've actually taken a lot

Guest [01:32:48] of heat for having a big family.

Michelle Stone [01:32:50] It's not very normal in the church.

Guest [01:32:52] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [01:32:52] Oh, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:32:53] So you felt like the surrounding culture, Mormon culture, was saying, why are you having so many babies?

Michelle Stone [01:33:00] That was one of the reasons. When we moved to Utah county, we moved into a neighborhood and like the woman down the street had raised 11, the woman next door had raised nine. I felt like I can live here and nobody will be rude to me. You know, I mean, they were all older, we moved in and we were the young family in a grown up neighborhood. But yeah, I had taken a ton of criticism. So I always felt like I had,

Guest [01:33:22] like it was God. I feel like God is telling me

Michelle Stone [01:33:28] to have this baby and I will do it even in the face of all of this. But I was so thankful. Like, I know that this is controversial and different people say it different ways, but I was meant to be a

Guest [01:33:41] mom, you know, and I've been thankful to be part of a family and

Michelle Stone [01:33:48] a Culture and a religion that supported

Guest [01:33:50] that, that, that didn't make me feel

Michelle Stone [01:33:52] less than or like I needed to make a different choice, you know, because

Guest [01:33:57] it can, it can swing either way so easily.

Michelle Stone [01:34:01] And so, so no, I didn't feel at all like, oh, it's our obligation. You know, I, I had to defend myself.

Guest [01:34:08] Like, you know, studying the, what was

Michelle Stone [01:34:10] the famous bet between Paul Ehrlich and Julian Simon, if I'm getting the names right? Right. Like, like I studied Thomas Malcolm, this quite a bit Malthusianism, when I did my episode on contraception and birth control. And I just disagree with those ideas. And I love what Julian Simon says, that our children are our greatest resource. And so I know that some people think there are too many people in this world. I think that's a sad, a sad idea. Just in terms of, well, who should be killed, do you know? Like, like that's kind of worse than genocidal. It's like species cital or whatever. And you know, and I do, I, I have done my best to raise my children well.

Michelle Stone [01:34:48] I'm not saying that I want everybody to do what I have done at all. I just, I just want the ability to do what I felt like I was supposed to do without facing everybody's criticism.

John Dehlin [01:34:59] Yeah, okay. Sounds like you're very pro life in terms of, like the abortion. Abortion and.

Michelle Stone [01:35:06] Well, see, all of these issues are complicated for me. When I was pregnant with my 13th,

Guest [01:35:12] I desperately wanted to just deliver her. I, I didn't want an abortion. I didn't, I wanted my baby, but I knew I didn't get her. And I couldn't stand the thought of suffering through, you know, six more months of hell. Like that pregnancy when, because of her complications. Like that was part of why it was really hard to be refused medical care because. So I, I just, just, I think that I, I, I tend to be libertarian leaning and I think, what is it?

Michelle Stone [01:35:42] Is it Alma, that said preaching the word has more effect on people's hearts than the law?

Guest [01:35:47] You know, I think, I do think

Michelle Stone [01:35:49] that abortion is a sad thing, especially.

Guest [01:35:51] I think that women do it because

Michelle Stone [01:35:53] they don't feel like they have a choice or girls do, and that's actually not giving them a choice. So I wish there were better options for most people. So any, my ideas on that are a little bit complicated, but yes, I, I really love people who go and support women in being able to keep their baby.

John Dehlin [01:36:09] You don't have to answer this, but it sounds like your last pregnancy may have been terminated.

Guest [01:36:13] No, no, I Carried her. I went through. I really wanted to just deliver her. I got really angry when my husband

Michelle Stone [01:36:22] said, you want an abortion?

Guest [01:36:24] I got really angry because I was like, no, I just don't. I don't have any control over when she dies and. But she's going to die, you know. But I did. Finally, I was struggling and my good friend, I have to call out Kara, because she literally saved my life. And she came over one day and sat with me and just said, well, when I was in this pregnancy this time, she just said, michelle, what can we hope for? And I had learned something that really troubled me, that a stillborn baby isn't put on the records of the church. And we. With knowing that my girls always wanted to be together, I could not stand the thought of any list of our family that had one of my little girls and not the other one.

Guest [01:37:05] So I knew that if my little girl wasn't born alive, we would remove our records for that reason. And anyway, so when she asked, what can we pray for? And I just had the impression that she could be born alive, you know, because with that condition, my understanding is about a third of the babies die in utero. About a third died during birth, and then the other third, without intensive medical

Michelle Stone [01:37:29] care for the ones that aren't as severely affected, the rest of them will die within the first days of life.

John Dehlin [01:37:36] How many months did you carry your last?

Guest [01:37:37] I was 36 weeks, so.

Michelle Stone [01:37:40] But I was measuring like 49 centimeters because I had, Oh, I can't remember the term.

Guest [01:37:47] I had to.

Michelle Stone [01:37:48] She couldn't swallow, so I had two. So they were worried about a uterine rupture.

Guest [01:37:51] It was, it was, it was hellish, but.

Michelle Stone [01:37:53] But I'm here on the other side of it.

John Dehlin [01:37:55] And so you didn't terminate the pregnancy, but you feel like there's a place for medical.

Michelle Stone [01:38:01] I just don't want to. I, I am, I am pro life.

Guest [01:38:04] I'm very much like.

Michelle Stone [01:38:05] I think lives are precious. And I don't want women to feel like they are facing that awful choice. Yeah, right.

Guest [01:38:10] But.

Michelle Stone [01:38:10] But I'm not always sure that that law.

Guest [01:38:14] I, I don't know.

Michelle Stone [01:38:15] I have complicated feelings about it.

Guest [01:38:17] I would just, just, I just want.

John Dehlin [01:38:20] It sounds like you want to preserve the legal right for medical termination of pregnancy. If health.

Michelle Stone [01:38:28] I will say I was thankful to live in a state where if I hadn't been refused medical care, that would have been an option. I felt very thankful for that.

John Dehlin [01:38:36] So pro life in terms of you, you love life and you don't want to ever support the casual termination of life, but a recognition of sometimes the medical need for there to be termination of pregnancy.

Guest [01:38:50] I think just.

Michelle Stone [01:38:50] I, Yeah, I want to be empathetic. I think. I think that sometimes women think. What I object to is the idea that this is a solution, that abortion is just like an easy fix. And I think that that isn't necessarily the case. I think there are many women who are scarred deeply. So I would like to prevent it whenever possible, but I don't want to judge other people's paths.

John Dehlin [01:39:15] And you wouldn't want to force a law where it was prohibited to all people.

Michelle Stone [01:39:19] Oh, I'm probably going to get myself in so much trouble. I could just say I was thankful that I. That the law gave me an option.

John Dehlin [01:39:24] Okay, okay, okay. So the other question I had was around your epistemology. And I. And this isn't me ever wanting. I believe people's beliefs are sacred. I really do. Do. I actually don't do Mormon stories to try and take people's beliefs away from them. And I don't do it to challenge people's sacred beliefs. And I'm not trying to challenge yours. I am curious because, you know, this. This idea, and you and I talked about this on the phone. This idea that we can communicate with God or the divine through our feelings and our thoughts can be beautiful. And it can be very problematic because you've told us examples that were very beautiful for you in many ways, but also the thoughts to have the children that God wanted you to have the children were horrific for you, making you think God was evil at some point.

John Dehlin [01:40:20] So there were points where those thoughts felt evil or bad to you in some way or made you wonder if God was evil. Evil. And then you go to the worst extreme. Lori Vallow, Chad Dabel, Jody Hildebrandt, Ruby Frankie, the Lafferty Brothers, Warren Jeffs. Like, there's all sorts of atrocities done with sincere beliefs that God is telling the people to murder or, you know, to do polygamy or whatever.

John Dehlin [01:40:53] So one option that many people go to is just to say, wait a minute, maybe God isn't behind our thoughts and feelings. Maybe we just have thoughts and feelings and we attribute them to God, but maybe we should have what I call what some call epistemic humility and just say, you know, right now I'm feeling like it's from God, but maybe it's not. And that kind of gets you out of this pickle of wondering whether God's evil, because instead of it being God evil, it's just. I had the thought or the feeling or the desire to have more kids and I attributed it to God.

John Dehlin [01:41:28] Did you ever go there and just say, maybe my thoughts and feelings aren't divine, they're just my thoughts and feelings. Did that ever occur to you as an option for you?

Michelle Stone [01:41:39] Well, sure. I mean, I think that navigating, navigating inspiration is something we all have to struggle to learn. I think so. When I used to teach in the homeschooling community, my topic was called Celestial Education. And I would teach about like the different stages of learning as I believed, as I believed them to be. But like I, I used to talk about actually learning to receive inspiration and to interpret inspiration, right. And so I think that it is definitely.

Michelle Stone [01:42:12] What should I say? I guess, I guess my instinct is to err on the side of faith, lean into faith, because I don't know how it serves me. My life has been outlined by doing what I felt God told me to do, specific direction to me. And so I don't know how it would contribute to my life to, to do that differently. To just assume it would feel actually quite arrogant to me to just think, oh, I'm just driving the ship, I'm in charge. You know, I of course wrestle with God. And anyway, I don't know if that's answering your question, but I don't.

Michelle Stone [01:42:46] I do think it's an important thing to learn to discern. The Book of Mormon is all about discernment, right? How we learn to hear the good voices. And while I believe in inspiration, I also believe in deception. And I think there are some tell tale signs of deception. For example, anything that sounds at all self aggrandizing, I think, oh, be careful with that. Just put that file that away in a back drawer. Don't, don't, don't think about that too much. And then anything that you are inspired to do at the expense of somebody else is not from the right source.

Michelle Stone [01:43:21] I wish that everyone would just like accept that as a rule of thumb. I don't think I can be inspired to hurt somebody or take something from somebody. I can definitely be inspired of who I can serve, who I can help, who I can love. And that's where inspiration serves, serves me well.

John Dehlin [01:43:42] And if somebody were to say to you, you are a victim of the Mormon Church because you were taught that your thoughts and feelings come from God. You were taught to have a lot of babies and those deaths happened because you were way too old to be having kids. But the church's culture and doctrine influence you that direction plus, to believe that your thoughts and feelings were from God. And in that sense, you and your family suffered incredible tragedy because you were under the influence of doctrine and culture. That was just harmful. What would you say to that person?

Michelle Stone [01:44:23] So, first of all, I would, like, come and punch you in the face for saying I'm way too old to be having kids, because my first little girl's death had nothing to do with my age. The second one, actually, genetic disorders can show up at any age. Yes, yes, it was a higher risk. I took that risk based on my inspiration. So, yes, you can say that I was a victim, but I would push back so hard because I love my children.

Guest [01:44:50] I have loved being a mom. My kids are amazing. And I would not. There's nothing I would rather have done with my life. And again, I am so thankful to have been. And also, how many people in my

Michelle Stone [01:45:08] church were not necessarily happy that I was having more children, including, you know, like.

Guest [01:45:13] Like, there were people who were extremely

Michelle Stone [01:45:16] supportive and people who were not right. And so I don't think that this is a church culture to have 13 children in Mormonism at this point. This was me. This was my own choices. And I have dear friends who also have. Have large families. So I guess we had our own little culture, and we came together because we were this kind of mom that homeschooled and had a lot of kids.

Guest [01:45:37] And so I. I actually am so

Michelle Stone [01:45:42] thankful to have had my family, and

Guest [01:45:45] I'm so thankful to have had my little girls. I, like, I would not trade that for anything. I still feel them. They're, you know, they're here. And. And I have grown so much. I hate ever making it sound like it's a good thing what happened, because it's not. But I can't be anything other than tremendously thankful.

John Dehlin [01:46:12] Yeah. Powerful. Beautiful. Okay. Thank you for sharing. And that's this. That the final. The passing of your final child was 2020.

Michelle Stone [01:46:24] 2021.

John Dehlin [01:46:25] 2021. So I was in the middle of COVID Kind of.

Guest [01:46:28] Yeah. Okay.

Michelle Stone [01:46:30] Summer of 20, July of 2021.

John Dehlin [01:46:33] Okay. So I. I want to just talk really quickly or ask you to just talk very briefly, and I'll. I'll have Brooklyn take notes so that I can come back and read what you answered and catch up on what I missed. But. But preparism is kind of a thing in Mormonism. Kind of end times millennialism is kind of a thing. It's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. There's the whole visions of glory kind of stuff.

Homeschooling, Preparedness, and Spiritual Seeking

John Dehlin [01:47:01] Preparism homeschooling is often kind of associated with that. And so I want to give you just a few minutes to just talk about, you know, your decision to homeschool, how you view about the proximity of the end times, whether you were kind of, whether you had visible to you this prepper, types of movements in Utah county, whether you had any associations with or visibility into people who love the Visions of Glory book and, or we're stockpiling for the end times.

Michelle Stone [01:47:40] So, yeah, I guess there is an overlap with homeschooling and prepping. I didn't think of it that way. So I will say my mom took me to what's his name, the guy that wrote Dreams and Visions of the Last Days, Roger K. Young. I think I went to some of those things and I definitely was into preparedness. I was definitely into preparedness.

Michelle Stone [01:48:04] I went through some experiences where I kind of learned. I felt like the Lord took me through some experiences where I learned all the things I was relying on other than God. And, and I came to a point of kind of feeling like preparism. I, I don't want to say I was, I was like a prepper. I just believed in the year supply and I had like a water purifier, you know, like, like, I guess, moderate food storage type. Nothing more extreme than that. But I, I, I, I kind of started realizing, oh, I'm, I'm trusting in this maybe more than I'm trusting in God.

Michelle Stone [01:48:43] And so I really stepped back even from that. But I still do buy in bulk because it's really nice to just go down and bring up some more oats rather than having to go to the store all the time. So. Yeah, and I still have my buckets of wheat. So, yeah, I guess I'm just normal Mormon prepper. I always wanted a cow and chickens. Never got one. Never got them. So is that, maybe you can fill in if. Is there anything he asked that I'm missing?

Michelle Stone [01:49:09] Oh, the Visions of Glory. Yes. Okay. I do remember someone giving me Visions of Glory when it first came out. And I read it and was horrified. I thought it was the worst book for a variety of reasons.

Michelle Stone [01:49:24] I mean, there were just weird scenes in it. I don't know if I recall them. But then also the whole idea that like, Jesus comes and it goes through the church like this, this backs up just a little bit. Actually, my first thing that I really started struggling with in the church is the idea that like, it's, it's kind of like all about the prophet, right. That the Prophet can't lead us astray. And that's just not true through church history. And I kind of of felt like wasn't necessarily spiritually safe because we're putting our trust in the arm of flesh, and it sets us up to maybe not have our faith be as solid as it otherwise would be.

Michelle Stone [01:50:00] So that was one thing that. That I struggled with was that idea and kind of got myself in trouble talking about it. There was nothing specific at the time that I disagreed with any of the prophets on. It just was the idea in general. And so. So the idea in visions of glory that, like, Jesus comes at general conference and you get a ticket based on your righteousness or. Anyway, there were several reasons that I really, really did not like that book at all and found it deeply troubling.

John Dehlin [01:50:31] And I'm back. Do you believe that the Second coming is nigh kind of thing?

Michelle Stone [01:50:35] Do you know? I mean, I definitely have. I believe that. I believe that the Book of Mormon is like, what I kind of have been shown or interpreted is a series of people coming into the presence of God. So it's like. Like I'm much more concerned with my relationship with God and my experiences with God than I am of some of things. I think that trying to understand Scripture or trying to predict things or trying to is. I've never seen anyone be accurate in any of it. Right. So I don't spend much time thinking about any of that. Okay. I know some people get really into it. It is definitely not my cup of tea.

John Dehlin [01:51:13] Okay. So you're not sitting around thinking that Jesus is coming any moment. We've got to create food storage and get weapons and bullets to prepare for the second Coming.

Michelle Stone [01:51:22] And that doesn't make sense to me. If Jesus is coming, why do we need weapons and food storage? I don't, like. Like, I don't know that Jesus needs our stuff. I think that. I think there's probably wisdom and basic preparation because life is unstable. But at the same time, if you dig into preparation and you see how far it can go, how can you possibly prepare for every eventuality, you know? And I think of, like, the FLDS groups that just wasted so much money focusing on the end of time. So I think I was probably more like that when my oldest kids were little. They might. They might be like, mom, you were totally a prepper, you know, But I'm. I'm. I haven't been for quite a while.

John Dehlin [01:52:00] Okay. Did you. Were you ever aware. I think Denver Snuffer kind of emerged around 20. I don't know, 10, 11, 12, 13 kind of thing. Were you ever aware of Denver Snuffer and his writings, this idea of the second comforter, of having Jesus visit you personally, being able to see Jesus in the face? Were you ever kind of exposed to or influenced by Denver Snufferism or second comforter kind of teachings?

Michelle Stone [01:52:31] Yes. Yes. So actually when I was kind of going through that faith crisis at of, of thinking that my cognitive dissonance of why isn't the church living up to my expectations?

John Dehlin [01:52:42] You know, this was in the mid-2000s.

Michelle Stone [01:52:44] Yeah, well, like 2005, 2007. Yeah, around that time. And I did feel just completely led by the Lord to Denver Snapper's first book, which I read, which kind of gave me permission to believe what I was believing. So I did read his first book and I appreciated it. I thought, yeah, I, I, I liked it.

John Dehlin [01:53:02] It. So is that something you ever, are you comfortable even sharing, whether that's something you tried to obtain? This, the witness of the second comforter?

Michelle Stone [01:53:11] Oh, I think I thought about it for quite a while, but I, but I, that's another thing that I think. Can I, oh, I, I, I don't want to get myself in trouble because different people have different perceptions. My feeling is trying to quantify an outcome, a specific goal with the Lord or the Spirit is just not how I work. Work. It, it doesn't, it doesn't feel great to me to, you know, I'd rather just like let my experiences with the Lord come as they will come rather than trying to say I want that experience to happen. Okay, that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:53:43] So seeking a witness was not something you've settled to feel like you want to do.

Michelle Stone [01:53:52] I, okay, how do I explain? I have experiences with the Lord. They don't necessarily fit into anybody else, else's categories of how they would define them. And, and I, I don't think that that like, need to have some kind of experience necessarily leads to good places for, for a lot of people. Maybe, maybe it does. I don't, but, but it's not my cup of tea.

Considering Leaving the Church and LGBT Family Experiences

John Dehlin [01:54:13] Okay, so, okay, let's go back a tiny bit. You talked about 2015 as a moment you were kind of thinking about leaving the church.

Michelle Stone [01:54:23] That was hard.

John Dehlin [01:54:24] Can you talk about what can you tell us about that? Was that the first time that you remember, like really seriously considering leaving?

Michelle Stone [01:54:31] Yeah, maybe.

John Dehlin [01:54:32] Okay.

Michelle Stone [01:54:33] I think so.

Guest [01:54:34] I think.

Michelle Stone [01:54:34] Well, and maybe it was, Was it before that? I can't remember. Maybe it was a little before that. I, I did have a time and I need to Remember, I, I need to do the math of how old my kids are. It was one of my oldest. We're all teenagers, so probably then, yes, in those years that I just felt like I, I experienced some ecclesiastical abuse. The, the November policy happened, which I found to be utterly devastating.

John Dehlin [01:54:57] And, and for those who don't know, do you want to describe what. That. What was devastating about it to you?

Guest [01:55:01] Yeah, I, so I felt like I had been in communities of people trying to make the church work with their

Michelle Stone [01:55:08] families that had LGBT family members, and I didn't know I had gay children

Guest [01:55:12] yet, you know, and.

Michelle Stone [01:55:14] And then I also was in a lot of communities of people that were, you know, kind of going like, like, just struggling with faith questions based on all of these problems. And, and I don't know why, but I just always have wanted to be an advocate for the church. I see a lot of good in the church, and I, I see a lot of good in people's lives when

Guest [01:55:31] they're in the church.

Michelle Stone [01:55:31] And I hate to see the church

Guest [01:55:33] lose the people I love that I think contribute to the church. So it was really hard to have something happen that. It just felt like a nuclear bomb. And anyone who was, like, sympathetic with the church and kind of active went completely like, no, the church is bad. Anyone who was already critical of the church went extremely critical of the church, you know, and it just, it just felt so sad to me.

John Dehlin [01:56:03] Are you saying like a self inflicted wound that the church kind of gave itself a self inflicted wound by the November policy?

Guest [01:56:11] Yeah, I mean, yes, but also, it wasn't just the church that was hurt so many people. Like, it's not like I'm more aggrieved for my church, and I grieved for my friends and, and for myself. You know, I'm being selfish, but I didn't. Like, it's hard to make these decisions and it's hard to feel. I don't know, it just was hard. It was just a hard time for me. And then there were some other things that happened as well that made me feel like I needed to consider

John Dehlin [01:56:42] it.

Guest [01:56:43] Leaving.

John Dehlin [01:56:44] Did you consider yourself an LGBT ally in 2015 when that stuff happened? Did you have. You said you didn't know about your own kids yet. So did you have other friends or family members that helped you develop empathy, or was this just so.

Guest [01:56:58] Again, I, I just had experiences with the Lord. I. So I, I was actually so conservative. I was a big supporter of Prop 8, which, you know, didn't know, didn't understand, but, but I had Some experiences with God where that really changed my perspective and some really profound experiences. And I came, I had some. It's hard to talk about these things, but really I like, like, here am. I said, send me is something that I think that many people said, including some of our loved brothers and sisters who have really hard challenges if you're

Michelle Stone [01:57:39] a member of the church.

Guest [01:57:40] And then I also. So I'll tell. Okay, I'll just tell a story. I've told this before, but I had

Michelle Stone [01:57:46] gathered with a lot of friends and

Guest [01:57:47] we were talking about, you know, homeschool moms, we were talking about things. And I had been. I'd had that experience and I had felt really just told by the Lord that, that it was my responsibility and our responsibility to love people, to actively, aggressively seek out people and love them. Do you know what I mean? Like, and people who didn't fit easily into the church structure.

Michelle Stone [01:58:08] And so as I was thinking about that, oh, this shows how the space I was in, but I was like, oh, I totally love people. I want to love people. I wouldn't want them in my home. I wouldn't want them around my children. I wouldn't want that example around my children was my thought.

Guest [01:58:24] And. And it was one of just a few times that I felt. It's hard. I felt like smacked upside the head by the Lord in that thought. And the words were, it is not their example of homosexuality that's damaging to your children. It's your example of lack of charity that's damaging to your children. And I learned that my children are going to learn to be gay by seeing gay people, but they're going to learn to be self righteous and judgmental and lack empathy from a mom who models that. And I. So I just kind of came into the community because I wanted to share those lessons and wanted to try to help in whatever way I could.

John Dehlin [01:59:08] Wow. So it wasn't necessarily personal experiences with immediate family or friends. It was instruction from the Lord that made you more lgbt, empathetic or supportive. Wow. Okay.

Guest [01:59:22] It was.

John Dehlin [01:59:24] So you regretted your Prop 8 support after that?

Guest [01:59:27] I did.

John Dehlin [01:59:28] Oh, wow.

Guest [01:59:29] Okay. I mean, I. I'm sympathetic with all of us. We're all growing and learning. Nobody, I think, knew and understood well enough, you know, but. But it's hard. And anyway. Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:59:43] No, go ahead, keep going.

Guest [01:59:44] Oh, just. No, it's all. It's all right.

John Dehlin [01:59:46] Okay. Okay. So did that. You don't have to answer this again. I just, I'm curious. Like, did that make you think the church's policies on LGBT people were in error.

Guest [01:59:58] I, I really struggle with this one. And I can, maybe I can put it in the context. There'll be some. This, this occurred to me a little while into my podcast, where I realized, because I have for a long time thought we need better answers. I don't know what those answers are, but I feel like we need better answers. And, you know, so I don't have the solutions. I, I don't claim to. I, I, I just know that we need better answers that we have. I feel. You know, but I don't, I don't. Man, I wouldn't want the job of church leaders, you know, that would be hard. But, but when I was studying polygamy in the scriptures and I realized that the Book of Mormon really has next to nothing to say about homosexuality. But my gosh, there's an abomination. It talks about an awful lot.

John Dehlin [02:00:52] Tell us what that is.

Michelle Stone [02:00:54] The doctrine of many wives and concubines.

Guest [02:00:57] Right. And it's declared an abomination. And my feeling is that's part of, I guess why I feel like this matters is we really need better answers on these things. And so for me, the fact that the Book of Mormon has so much to say about polygamy is actually a

Michelle Stone [02:01:13] confirmation of its usefulness in our church and in, in my life. And, you know, because how can we

Guest [02:01:19] expect to get answers on these other things when we have our own pet abomination that we're carrying around in our back pocket? I feel like we are. I mean, I don't, I don't want to be critical. You know, I know that we're all just trying, but it does feel to me like we're going to get that moat out while we've got a beam in our own eye. And I really feel like we desperately, desperately need answers to these other issues. And, and I guess it's just my little idea that maybe if we, I mean, the Book of Mormon tells us

Michelle Stone [02:01:48] throughout it that when we listen to it, we will receive more.

Guest [02:01:51] Right. We're told in third Nephi 26 that

Michelle Stone [02:01:54] we're under condemnation for not believing what's in the Book of Mormon. Same thing in Doctrine Covenants 84.

Guest [02:01:58] And I, I just think that we

Michelle Stone [02:02:01] can believe the Book of Mormon and it has a lot to say about polygamy. And maybe if we heed that, maybe we'll get more answers on the other hard issues we're facing. I don't know. That's just my supposing.

John Dehlin [02:02:12] So Julie and others are saying, wait A minute. Isn't it only just one short verse on polygamy. The Book of Mormon. Explain what you the Book of Mormon

Michelle Stone [02:02:19] is by far the most anti polygamy book of scripture in the entire canon. So if anyone's curious, you can just look like Search Concubine in the Book of Mormon, there are four times that it uses the exact phrase many wives and concubines and another time that it talks about wives and concubines. And you know what those phrases are. First of all, Jacob 1 and Jacob 2, where it is absolutely condemned. And then also King Noah, wicked King Noah did not do that, which was right in the sight of God, for he had many wives and concubines. He and his priests. Right. And then evil King Riplakish in the Book of Ether.

Michelle Stone [02:02:51] And then also if you go throughout, like, I didn't come prepared to go through the scriptures, but these are the things that I learned that I wanted to share in my podcast. That first year I do an episode, it's my second anniversary episode called God is Not a Polygamist. And skip the first three minutes because I'm celebrating my birthday and it's in embarrassing but.

Michelle Stone [02:03:09] But that's a good one to get the scripture overlay. Like, I tried to just put as many of the scriptures about polygamy in it as I could. So I. I should go to this part for a second. If like my change of heart on polygamy and how I learned this or did you have.

John Dehlin [02:03:23] Oh, I. Can we touch on it? Can we come back to it? Yeah, okay. We will totally come to it.

Guest [02:03:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:03:29] So did you want to talk about the ecclesiastical abuse at all?

Michelle Stone [02:03:34] Oh, and maybe that's an unkind term. I and that bishop afterward reached out to me and like really again, healed me and, you know, was just kind.

Guest [02:03:44] I think that leaders are trying their best.

John Dehlin [02:03:47] Was it around the November 15 policy?

Guest [02:03:48] It was a little before that, but

John Dehlin [02:03:50] I mean, was it about that?

Michelle Stone [02:03:51] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [02:03:52] Oh, it was about something else.

Michelle Stone [02:03:53] I've told that story on other podcasts. I gave a talk in church that I thought was. That felt very inspired. And it was about Lant's wife who. No, my talk was not about Lot's wife. I included a tiny little bit about Lot's wife in my healing process. I went and did a Sunstone presentation on Lot's wife and shared these ideas. I. I gave a talk on Jesus has no Hands but Ours and how we, you know, we can help in our own little way lift the burden of Jesus. Any pain that we lessen is pain that Jesus doesn't have to suffer. Any pain that we inflict is pain that Jesus has to suffer.

Guest [02:04:25] Right.

Michelle Stone [02:04:26] We are all engaged in this work and then seeing the pain of. During this time, I was going and speaking to groups of parents with LGBT children, occasionally with some of the things that I had experienced and, and. And the first time I was going to. Was asked to speak to a group, I felt completely, completely in over my head because I didn't have gay children at that point. I didn't know I had gay children at that point. And I felt like, how can I tell that anything, you know? And I had an experience. We were studying Lot and I had an experience and reinterpreted, like, throughout that week, that story flipped on its head. And Lot's wife became one of my profound scriptural heroines.

Guest [02:05:09] I think she is a rock star, and I think we need her story,

Michelle Stone [02:05:11] and I think we as mothers need her story. And I can give you the really fast Cliffs Notes, but at the end of my talk, I just shared a tiny little bit of that. And the stake President's wife is. Happened to be there and didn't like. Didn't like what I had said because it was just different. People sometimes just struggle to have something different.

Guest [02:05:27] But.

Michelle Stone [02:05:27] But it's awesome. If you look up the images, Pillar of Salt, it's actually like a profoundly complex. And it's like the biggest compliment God can give that someone could become a pillar of salt. And Jesus, we wouldn't even know that much about Lot's Wife any more than we do of all the. Any of the other Old Testament strange stories. If Jesus hadn't brought her up and said, remember Lot's Wife? Right. And if you read it, I'm a big believer in the Alma 12, the greater portion and the lesser portion of the Scriptures. And if you read it and it says, in that day, who was ever on the housetop, let him not return in the house.

Michelle Stone [02:06:03] Remember Lot's wife? So it makes it sound like, remember she was bad, you know? But if you read it the other way and say, remember Lot's wife, whosoever shall seek to save his life, so shall lose it. And whosoever shall lose his life shall be preserve it. Preserve like salt. And when you realize Lot's wife had children and grandchildren in the city, right? If you read the story through those eyes, Lot's wife had. Anyway, I like, I love her and kind of like I love Emma.

Guest [02:06:30] I don't like women being derailed and villain vilified.

Michelle Stone [02:06:35] If.

Guest [02:06:36] When I see a different. Something different in them.

John Dehlin [02:06:39] So you're trying to redeem Lot's wife.

Guest [02:06:41] I. Well, I felt like God did show me that we as mothers, there's so much. Maybe it's. Maybe it's less. In the church at that time, there was a lot of suffering from mothers over their children leaving, really, the. The empty chairs in. In heaven idea, you know? And I wanted people to understand what

Michelle Stone [02:06:59] Lot's wife teaches us, because a pillar

Guest [02:07:02] of salt is power to save. Right. Salt is good. If Jesus says, and salt was ounce

Michelle Stone [02:07:08] for ounce, as precious as gold, old in the old world.

Guest [02:07:11] Right.

Michelle Stone [02:07:11] Salt is what saves, and a pillar is what sustains and supports and is a symbol of God, a pillar of fire, a pillar of a cloud, the pillars of the temple. A pillar of salt to me means power to save.

Guest [02:07:24] And a mother who doesn't turn her back, but who keeps reaching out, who keeps loving, who keeps embracing it doesn't. Doesn't give up, has power to save.

John Dehlin [02:07:38] Were you. So you were basically saying Lot's wife was righteous?

Guest [02:07:42] Well, in my.

Michelle Stone [02:07:43] In my talk, I just really quickly said. I gave my talk on the Savior, and then I just for the last few minutes said.

Guest [02:07:49] And I. I feel like I should share this. I know it's unconventional. Forgive me for giving a different interpretation, but it's been meaningful to me.

Michelle Stone [02:07:56] So in case it's helpful to anyone. And I gave a Super CliffsNotes version of Pillar of Salt and what Jesus said.

John Dehlin [02:08:02] But this is not a negative cautionary tale. Right? You're trying to. You're redeeming her.

Guest [02:08:06] Yes. I think she's a story that we. I think we as women need her.

John Dehlin [02:08:10] Yeah. Okay.

Michelle Stone [02:08:11] And I do not think Jesus is the type to, like, remember that really, really evil woman who doesn't have a name. Right. Remember, like, why is it not. Remember Cain? Remember King David? Remember. I mean, there are so many examples.

Guest [02:08:28] You have a mother who, like, the

Michelle Stone [02:08:31] angel, told Lot to go and get his sons and daughters and daughters, like his sons in law.

Guest [02:08:35] Right.

Michelle Stone [02:08:35] They had children and grandchildren in the city. Nephi says, I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded. I know, right? Lot just came back and said they thought I was joking around. He didn't get the children. And so while they were tarrying, which

Guest [02:08:47] I think is Lot's wife saying, go get my children. I'm not leaving without them. And the angels put their hands on them and transport them out of their city. What does a mother do if her baby is in a burning building? She Goes back to get her baby. What do we expect Lot's wife to do?

Michelle Stone [02:09:03] Right.

Guest [02:09:03] And I'm not saying that these stories

Michelle Stone [02:09:05] are literal or I never argue that.

Guest [02:09:06] I just think they're profound lessons for us. And this is part of why I love the Scriptures, because I think they can unfold themselves to us in really meaningful ways. That's been my experience, and I have come to love that story.

John Dehlin [02:09:19] Okay, so you got called out for teaching an unconventional interpretation of a story.

Michelle Stone [02:09:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:24] But then it's been healed since then. Okay.

Guest [02:09:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:09:27] Do you want to talk about your own kids coming out as LGBT and how that's impacted you? Nothing you don't want to share?

Michelle Stone [02:09:33] Yeah, no, I, I just.

Guest [02:09:35] I just will say that my kids are awesome, and I adore them and I love them. That's. Yeah. I, I, I was kind of. Maybe I should. I was kind of happy that having my kids come out to me didn't change my perspectives. I'd already been taught what I needed to be taught by the Lord. Lord, I won't say I haven't been stretched. There have been a lot of things

Michelle Stone [02:09:55] that I've had to go back to

Guest [02:09:56] the Lord and say, what do you want me to do in this situation? You know, there are challenges and struggles

Michelle Stone [02:10:01] when you're navigating a lot of children

Guest [02:10:02] and you're, you know, and so. So I rely a lot on the

Michelle Stone [02:10:06] Lord, and I give my kids their

Guest [02:10:07] space, and I think they are fantastic. Humans love them very, very much.

John Dehlin [02:10:13] Is it. Would it be putting words in your mouth to say that you don't believe that being lgbt, lgbt, gay, lesbian, bisexual, or trans is, like, evil or an abomination?

Michelle Stone [02:10:25] Oh, being gay.

John Dehlin [02:10:27] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [02:10:28] Is evil.

John Dehlin [02:10:29] Yeah.

Guest [02:10:29] No, I mean, I think that I. I mean, I guess we could go anywhere with that answer, but, no. I believe God loves God's children. God made us, each of us. Right. I think we all choose what we

Michelle Stone [02:10:43] do with the lives that we're given.

Guest [02:10:45] But. But I'm. I'm tickled with the lives my. My kids are leading, so you.

John Dehlin [02:10:51] I. And I don't mean to push too hard, but, like, if. If you had a gay son who decided to marry a man or a lesbian daughter that decided to marry or partner with a woman in all the ways. In all the ways. The affidavits, the polygamy affidavits alluded to right or wrong.

Michelle Stone [02:11:08] I gotta call you on that. That's not accurate, but keep going.

John Dehlin [02:11:11] I know that's a joke, but. But would you be worried about the worthiness of your children if they had same sex partners.

Guest [02:11:17] So one thing that's really helped me

Michelle Stone [02:11:20] actually is in, in my faith transition is to let go of fear in parenting. I don't think fear is a great way to parent. And I recognize that as a young mom with, while I was trying so hard to teach my children all the righteousness that I was actually in kind of a fearful place. And I just know that God, God

Guest [02:11:38] has shown me in so many profound

Michelle Stone [02:11:39] ways that God has, has got my kids and they are in God's hands, living their life, going on their path, teaching us the things that we need to learn, hopefully learning what they need to learn along the way.

Guest [02:11:50] And I, I, I like, I just

Michelle Stone [02:11:53] love watching their lives unfold.

John Dehlin [02:11:56] Beautiful. And you don't have to answer this, but do you consider yourself trans affirming?

Michelle Stone [02:12:00] Oh, that's, that's probably a hard one. I, that's a hard one. I don't, I don't want anyone to be hurt. It just is hard when am, when, when things overlap with other things and it's hard to know who anyway, who to support. I am trans affirming. I'm also woman affirming. So it's a little bit of a challenge for me as a. And I know that that's radioactive to say to people. I'm just being honest.

John Dehlin [02:12:23] So you're working through the tensions there?

Michelle Stone [02:12:25] Yeah, yeah. It's a struggle for me.

John Dehlin [02:12:27] I think we all are.

Guest [02:12:28] Yeah. I don't.

Michelle Stone [02:12:29] There are things that I, that I am very concerned about in our society.

John Dehlin [02:12:33] Sure. Okay. But definitely not.

Guest [02:12:35] I have a sister. I haven't. My oldest sister is like, amazing. And watching her scoop up and embrace,

Michelle Stone [02:12:42] like, I've been to her house. She, she gathers people and she'll often have multiple trans people there in her

Guest [02:12:48] home that like, I just, she is

Michelle Stone [02:12:50] a model to me. I love her. So I, I want everybody to be loved, embraced included.

John Dehlin [02:12:56] Beautiful. Okay. So you mentioned a second faith crisis in 2020ish around the passing of your children, but also around Covid. I know that a lot of people were upset that the leaders of the Mormon church at the time were supporting the vaccine, the COVID vaccine or supporting masks. Were you in that category of people that were either anti Covid vax or anti mask?

Reasons for Staying in the Church

Michelle Stone [02:13:28] I, Well, I will just say this. I felt like in 2020, all of the divisive forces of hell were unleashed on our society. That was how it felt to me. And I desperately, desperately wished that the church would have been able to teach messages of unity, love, Faith, acceptance, understanding, rather than sort of picking aside. That was hard for me to see. All of the division that there was. It was just really hard.

John Dehlin [02:13:56] And again, only if you're comfortable answering. Did you feel. Are you in the camp that felt like the COVID vaccine was bad or evil? Were you supportive of the vaccine? Do you have a position?

Michelle Stone [02:14:06] I guess I'm wondering your reason for asking, because I will say that how I was traumatized in the hospital affected my view of all of that. I viewed it all in a negative light because of what I experienced.

Guest [02:14:18] Yeah, it was. It I spent. After being told I couldn't see my daughter, my nursing daughter, and then her last two days of life on the earth. I couldn't smile at her. I couldn't kiss her. I couldn't smell her. Her big eyes looking for my smile so she could return it. And the nurses just being so.

John Dehlin [02:14:45] Oh, they were justifying it in my Covid sort of spread kind of justification.

Guest [02:14:49] It was in. It was in April of 2020, and they threatened to kick her out of the hospital if I wouldn't let her be nasal swabbed, which shortened her life because her heart at that point, crying was not good. They forced me. Like, the things that happened felt to me unthinkable. And I felt like we as a society lost our humanity based on fear. That was my perception of it.

John Dehlin [02:15:13] And those. Those interventions were connected to covet in some way. Okay. And that spoiled you, maybe to that whole situation.

Guest [02:15:22] It was like having her ripped out of my arms and taken and being told by myself, oh, go get in your van and drive 45 minutes. Go find your daughter. That had never been out of my arms. And I'm driving down the freeway and see a helicopter go, like. Surreal. Yeah, surreal. So I was pretty messed up through that. And then to feel alienated from my community, I wasn't allowed to. I wasn't able to get food for my children. I wasn't able because I was so traumatized by it. So it was. It was hard for me.

John Dehlin [02:15:51] And so then that made you feel what, Regarding the church leadership? Just that they weren't.

Guest [02:15:58] I. I mean, I. My. My attitude is very different now. I. At that time, I was angry. I was angry, and I was very vocal online. And I. You know, if I had had a platform at that time, I would have been excommunicated because I was really, really upset

John Dehlin [02:16:13] at the leaders of the church.

Guest [02:16:15] I was very critical.

John Dehlin [02:16:17] But now you don't. You don't feel the same way about those things.

Guest [02:16:20] I'm In a different place now.

John Dehlin [02:16:22] Yeah.

Guest [02:16:22] Where I just, I've healed and I can take it in stride. I, I still, I think I still have my same, same views on wishing that it had been. I think we could have really used

Michelle Stone [02:16:33] a message of unity at that point.

Guest [02:16:35] And, you know, but, but I'm not. I, I'm hesitant to say any of these things because I recognize this is not my stewardship and not my calling. And we can all have opinions and I hope that I'm not getting myself

Michelle Stone [02:16:47] in trouble by just sharing my opinions. I'm not trying to be critical at that point.

Guest [02:16:51] I was extremely critical. But things happened after that. Again, that completely healed me and that towards the church.

John Dehlin [02:17:00] Do you want to talk about that?

Guest [02:17:01] Yeah. Yeah. So while I was pregnant with my. I. I mean, these stories are so multifaceted, have so many connections. I just see the Lord's hand throughout them. Right. But I'll just tell this one portion of it. I, My stake president, my previous stake president, I had miraculously been brought into

Michelle Stone [02:17:20] association with him his very first. I ended up speaking at his very first state conference. And we. So we knew each other. Right.

Guest [02:17:26] And then. And so he was patient with me while I was so angry during those years. And then when my, when my. See, that's another thing. Like, John, not many people in this day and age lose children and not many people lose two in a row in two years. And I felt, I was so angry in so many ways. I had some people say to me things like, you better be careful with

Michelle Stone [02:17:50] how vocal I was online. You have a little girl in heaven

Guest [02:17:52] that wants to see you again, and if you keep criticizing the church, you won't get to see her again. And that was the first time eternal families had been weaponized against me. And I realized, whoa, you know, like, like I hadn't experienced that before.

Michelle Stone [02:18:05] And then also many, many different things that happened.

Guest [02:18:09] But also since the world was shut down, I felt completely alone. Like when I was pregnant with my 13th, I had my oldest son home when was suicidal, literally that my little 14 year old was like making peanut butter sandwiches for her brothers every night. I was pretty much down for the count. And we didn't have any support. There was no one that said, how are you? What do you need? What can you do? I couldn't.

John Dehlin [02:18:34] Your ward wasn't coming through because it

Guest [02:18:36] was all shut down.

John Dehlin [02:18:37] Yeah, yeah.

Guest [02:18:38] And. And it just, I mean, my ward is wonderful. And when my first little girl died, they, you know, I don't want to be critical. It just my perception at that time, felt, what have I given my life to? Why have I given my life to this church? What is it? You know? And so I was really struggling in that place for a while. I. I eventually had a woman that. I mean, at the same time, I was having beautiful, miraculous experiences and a woman that I, you know, that I saw one day, and I kind of unleashed on her.

Michelle Stone [02:19:12] Just.

Guest [02:19:12] I was like, what is this how. You know, know. And so she and the compassionate service leader came over and cleaned the kitchen, which was exactly what we needed, you know. So anyway, I was really struggling when.

Michelle Stone [02:19:23] And so when the stake presidency found

Guest [02:19:25] out that I was pregnant with another little girl we were going to use, they all three came over together and. And were very kind and ministered, you know, and I. I kind of let loose again. I was so angry and so upset by everything that was happening, and I just voiced all of it because my son's suicide attempt, like, we no longer

Michelle Stone [02:19:47] had young men's president.

Guest [02:19:48] So the bishop was supposed to be the. The young man had gone on high adventure and had left my son behind, and no one had reached out to him. And it was that night that I found him. So I just had a lot of reasons that I felt angry, you know, anyway, that stake presidency, because I said also, anyway, I'm making this story confusing and long, but my state presidency came over three weeks in a row in jeans and T shirts, those three men, and swept my kitchen, fed my kids, like, took care of us. And something about that. It's kind of like Jean Valjean, like, you have sealed my heart for God. You know, I saw goodness in the church. It opened my eyes to be able to see things in the church that I hadn't been seeing before that are absolutely there.

John Dehlin [02:20:48] That's the church at its best. When we're taking care of each other, loving each other, and.

Guest [02:20:53] And, you know, I mean, there's more to it than that, but that really. And then we were assigned some. The. The word missionary family. Our couple that was assigned to us have kind of adopted us, like grandparents. And they also like seeing people like this in my church, people that I want to be like, that I get to associate with and try to try to learn to emulate them. Like, there are incredible people. And then there's much more. There's much. There are many more reasons I stay as well. But that was the thing that really changed things for me, was just that pure ministering in the face. I mean, there were a lot of people that were really angry at me

Michelle Stone [02:21:32] because I was so vocal online and

Guest [02:21:34] that were, you know, but. But those people really saved us.

John Dehlin [02:21:40] As you mentioned that about the reasons you stay, there are people asking, give her a chance to really enumerate the main reasons why she does stay. We could ask that later, but may as well ask that now. Since you brought it up. What are the main. After all you've been through, you've. You've shared, I mean, I think divine guidance is probably your number one answer. I'm going to predict that that's it. But, like, do you. Are there any reasons that you've stayed with the church, aside from the service and the divine guidance that you would want to share?

Michelle Stone [02:22:11] Yeah, well, yes. The core of it is that I feel like the Lord has told me to stay. So. Okay, I'll back up again to the first time that I felt. I just felt like this black pit. Like I cannot stay in the church

Guest [02:22:23] after what I've experienced.

Michelle Stone [02:22:24] I didn't want my children to experience anything like that.

Guest [02:22:26] And I, you know, it was really

Michelle Stone [02:22:28] hard and I, I was seeking the answer.

Guest [02:22:30] I just was praying, God, show me what's better. Show me where to go. Show me what you know. I already homeschooled. I didn't feel great about just home churching, you know, or not doing anything. And I was just desperately praying. And during that time, I, I had some really profound answers.

Michelle Stone [02:22:48] One of the things that happened, because I would always counsel with my children, you know, like, I had had boys who were in their teens, maybe their mid teens. And so I remember talking to my second son and saying, I'm. I'm thinking of leaving the church. What would you think about that? You know?

Guest [02:23:03] And he. It was such a good learning experience for me because he just got a little choked up and said, mom, I know you know God, so I know you'll be fine. But I don't know God. All I have is the church. And that really made me realize the church is more than just what I want it to be be. It's different things to different people. But what really happened, the main thing that made me stay at that point was I just had, again, it was divine guidance. But I felt this really profound answer from God to me. And people can, you know, this is my answer. But I was just told Jesus stayed. Jesus stayed in the church. He.

Michelle Stone [02:23:40] Jesus was more aware of all of the problems in the church of his day than I could possibly be of any problem problems at the church in my day.

Guest [02:23:46] And yet he stayed. He continued to go to the feasts

Michelle Stone [02:23:49] in the temple but he didn't submit. I had been told in those interviews with the bishop that I couldn't make comments in class, I would never teach, I would never speak.

John Dehlin [02:23:59] I, you know, kind of being disfellowshipped, kind of.

Michelle Stone [02:24:01] Yeah, that word didn't come up at all. Well, what it was, I could only say things that were directly out of the manual. And so.

Guest [02:24:09] So I felt like that was part

Michelle Stone [02:24:12] of the reason of, like, how do I stay like that? And. And with what I had experienced, it was not a good interaction with the bishop for me.

Guest [02:24:19] And. And so.

Michelle Stone [02:24:21] But I was told Jesus stayed but didn't submit.

Guest [02:24:23] Jesus did what God wanted him to do, not what the. The leaders told him to do. And so. And that from. In my perception, you know, that combination of staying but not submitting led to the most most important event of all time, the atonement. Right. So I felt told to stay and not submit. And it was just after having that

Michelle Stone [02:24:46] answer that we had a new stake president put in. And I ended up speaking at his very first state conference when I'd been told I'd never speak again, you know,

Guest [02:24:53] and so I was told to stay

Michelle Stone [02:24:55] that time and felt. Became more aware of the needs, that it wasn't just about me. It was about many more people than me, you know, so that was my first time that I stayed and really felt committed. And it was painful. It was painful.

Guest [02:25:09] Like. Like, there are lots of things that I hear that I don't like. There are things that I, at that point that I was concerned that my

Michelle Stone [02:25:15] children were being taught that I didn't agree with, you know, but gradually, over time, I just.

Guest [02:25:20] It started to be where the good

Michelle Stone [02:25:22] would sink in and the hard would kind of. You know, I just was kind of blessed to let the hard go more than I had and embrace the good. Where I think before that, I had been doing the. The opposite, you know, and then.

Guest [02:25:33] And then in 2020, when I felt so inspired to stay, there was something

Michelle Stone [02:25:40] else I was going to tell you. I'll have to think of what it is about why I stay

John Dehlin [02:25:46] while you're thinking about it. Do you attend now? Every week.

Guest [02:25:50] Wow. Yeah, we. I love. I love being a member of the church. I really love the church. I, of course, mourn and grieve over people who, like. Like my twins, do not want to be members of the church.

John Dehlin [02:26:05] And I think they're lgbt. Okay.

Guest [02:26:08] And I think that, you know, it's a little hard for them sometimes that I still am, and we struggle with that, you know, but for me, I feel God in this church, like. Like it has been through this church, not through this church, but in this church that I've come to know God. I feel I really love the Book of Mormon and, and being in class and being inspired with a comment that I can share.

Michelle Stone [02:26:30] Having my children have opportunities to teach

Guest [02:26:32] and sing, being able to serve, being able to all, all of those. Like,

Michelle Stone [02:26:40] this is something that I have shared before.

Guest [02:26:43] But during that really, those really hard years that we were having, my marriage was also ending. We didn't. You know, marriage is hard anyway, but when you're losing, when you're going through things like that and with. And there were some additional pressures being put on our marriage as well. And I went through a time.

Guest [02:27:02] Okay, I'm just. Man, I'm being really vulnerable here, but I went through a time of intense, aggressive suicidality where it was while I was pregnant, actually, where, where I. It was in my marriage. If I would feel powerless, unseen, unappreciated and unloved, I would.

Guest [02:27:25] I don't even know what it was. I would go to this place where I caught myself, like, accelerating into oncoming traffic or like one night after something happened, I ran out and, you know, I was in my 12 passenger van and drove up to the canyon just to try to. And I kept finding myself, like, accelerating, riding toward the cliff, you know, So I pulled over in the middle of the night feeling like a complete idiot because I called the suicide hotline because I'm like, I don't know what's happening. This is, you know, the suicide hotline is for adolescents. And I'm a pregnant mother of 12.

Guest [02:27:59] What is wrong with me? You know, that was the space that I was in. And I. And I went. Anyway, the next night something happened again. And I knew I couldn't drive because, you know, so I ran over.

Guest [02:28:12] I was. It was in the middle of the winter. I was in the park in the middle of the night feeling like there was no hope. And I can't remember what I was

Michelle Stone [02:28:21] talking about, why I went to this answer.

Guest [02:28:23] But I'll.

Michelle Stone [02:28:23] But I'll just continue with this story even if I can't remember why I started it.

Guest [02:28:27] So I, I ran. I was at the park feeling like everything has to end. I felt so powerless. There was nothing I could do to. To solve the problems I was having. And, And I. It was then that I. The best term I have is the wisdom of the mothers. I felt like this incredible wisdom. And I don't. As big as eternity, this feminine wisdom. I Kind of think it's like the polygamist women, you know, that learned these things from their experience. I actually. I know this may be goofy to

Michelle Stone [02:29:02] some people, but I feel like I

Guest [02:29:03] was carrying being there there feeling powerless and unloved and unseen and like they

Michelle Stone [02:29:08] didn't have choices and they didn't matter,

Guest [02:29:10] you know, that was affecting me so much. And I had. I had this wisdom come to me that just said that part of your marriage is not your whole marriage. That thing he did is not who he is.

Guest [02:29:26] And it really healed me and allowed me to stay in my marriage, which I'm so thankful for, that we made it through that time. And I've had that same. That same impression with the church. Like, the church has some really, really difficult things, but that's not the whole church. And that's what I've come to see. I mean, I've been struggling in this space for, what, 20 years, you know, But I've been really thankful over these past several years where I've come to see there is so much more to the church than the things that I struggle with. And. And I really, really appreciate the whole package.

Guest [02:30:02] And I can just have more charity. Just like I need to have more charity for those things about my husband that are really hard for me and really appreciate all the good things. I. I kind of try to do the same thing with the church.

John Dehlin [02:30:14] Beautiful. Beautiful. Okay, I'm going to just check in. Do you need some water or do you need a quick break?

Michelle Stone [02:30:20] Are you doing okay?

John Dehlin [02:30:21] You okay? Okay.

Guest [02:30:22] Know my voice is holding out kind of.

John Dehlin [02:30:26] You're amazing. So thanks for helping us understand why you've. How you've been able to stay in the church and in your marriage. When. When did you first start your YouTube channel?

Michelle Stone [02:30:42] So, okay, so this is.

Guest [02:30:44] Can I.

Michelle Stone [02:30:44] Can I build on that story? I just told it kind of as a good segue. So after that experience I had with. With the wisdom of the mothers, I

Guest [02:30:52] was healed from that.

John Dehlin [02:30:54] I. I have not from your suicidal ideation.

Guest [02:30:57] I haven't struggled with that.

John Dehlin [02:30:58] Oh, wow. Wow.

Guest [02:30:59] It was just completely healed. And that. That next day, I was so grateful. So I was just praying, like, what can I do to. For you? Like, what can I do to thank you? You know, and the. The. The. The women that had given me that insight.

Michelle Stone [02:31:16] I know that sounds strange, but.

John Dehlin [02:31:17] But.

Guest [02:31:17] But that's really what I felt like. I just was like, what can I do in return? And I was given the answer.

Michelle Stone [02:31:22] Tell other women.

Discovering Problems with Polygamy and D&C 132

Guest [02:31:23] And I felt like I had studied,

Michelle Stone [02:31:26] so I guess I Haven't talked about my transition in my beliefs on polygamy. Maybe I should go there first.

John Dehlin [02:31:30] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [02:31:31] So, yeah, so I was a big believer in polygamy, right? Big old believer in polygamy. I'm on the record teaching in celestial education that polygamy is love Zion in heaven. And so. So, yeah, it was. I told you this story before. It was my husband that came in and was like, I don't think polygamy was ever of God. So in order to save my going apostate husband from his false beliefs, I went to the scriptures to.

John Dehlin [02:31:54] Around what year was this?

Michelle Stone [02:31:55] I want to say 2013, 2014. Yeah, so I'd had all these faith transitions, but I still hadn't questioned polygamy. Right. It sometimes comes piece by piece. I hadn't thought about it a lot, but I hadn't questioned it.

John Dehlin [02:32:06] So he concludes that polygamy was cousin of God. 2013. Ish.

Michelle Stone [02:32:10] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Based on the Book of Mormon. And so. So I started studying it because of course it is.

John Dehlin [02:32:17] We know that that's so weird when the husband's against polygamy and the wife is support affirming it.

Michelle Stone [02:32:23] His. His great grandparents lived in the same little Mexican colony as my grandparents. So, you know, colonial Dublin, I think it was. And so. So anyway, I went to the scriptures and I. I was shocked by how little I knew about what the scriptures have to say about marriage and polygamy. And I just. My mind was blown. And as I studied more and more and more, and that really was also another time of some degree of upheaval because something that I had just assumed was true became antithetical to what the scriptures actually teach. Right. And so I ended up starting Facebook group. Well, I tried to bring it up because you have to talk about this stuff when, you know.

Michelle Stone [02:33:08] So I tried to bring it up in several Facebook groups. And no, polygamy is verboten. You cannot talk. You may not discuss that here. And so I started my own Facebook group that I was like, okay, fine, I'll start my own and we'll talk about polygamy. And so. And because I had been in these really conservative homeschooling communities and had taught these things, I think that it actually was a blessing because a lot of people who were very pro polygamy and actual polygamists ended up joining that group.

Guest [02:33:34] And.

Michelle Stone [02:33:35] And then they tagged a bunch of, like, the polygamy scholars. So in my association there, I was able to engage with the very best arguments in defense of polygamy. And that was the best thing that could have happened to solidify my. My, like, thinking that maybe I was wrong about polygamy. When I realized that that's the best you've got, Those are the arguments. It becomes pretty easy to be like, oh, my gosh, this was, you know, this was never good.

John Dehlin [02:34:03] Are you talking about, like, church historians? Like, employees who were church historians?

Michelle Stone [02:34:07] I'm fundamentalist church apologist.

John Dehlin [02:34:10] Okay.

Michelle Stone [02:34:10] Polygamy, flds.

Guest [02:34:13] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [02:34:13] Or whatever. Whatever. Probably more AB and different groups.

John Dehlin [02:34:17] Okay.

Michelle Stone [02:34:18] Telling me that. Because before that, I had met people that were in the AUB and they had told me their theology went back when I was younger and selling bright music and I was in their homes, and they told me their theology of one day the mother and the father will come back together. And I was like, oh, sounds logical. You know, it just worked with my perception at that time. So. So this was really a big change. So anyway, I ended up being able to encounter all of the best arguments in favor of polygamy. And I found them to be severely lacking and sometimes quite atrocious. Like, if anyone has read Ogden Kraut, some of that is just.

John Dehlin [02:34:53] We interviewed Ann Wilde, my very first video interview on Mormon stories. Was Ann Wilde his second or third wife.

Michelle Stone [02:34:59] His secretary. Yep.

Guest [02:35:00] And. And she.

Michelle Stone [02:35:01] I remember, I think, in. In either your interview or like, she made some claims and threw some things out. When you go dig them up, you're like, oh, my gosh, that's what we've got. Right. And so I became very, very convinced that polygamy was not of God.

Guest [02:35:13] And.

Michelle Stone [02:35:14] And that's. That was what my study was, was that polygamy was not of God. Scripturally, absolutely bulletproof. I felt like that is a lockdown case. And. And so.

Guest [02:35:24] And then.

John Dehlin [02:35:24] Except for DNC132.

Michelle Stone [02:35:26] Well, I did. I learned just enough about DNC132. Like when I remember when I learned where it came from and when it was added and was like, oh, my word. Like, are you kidding me?

John Dehlin [02:35:39] You know, when you learned it was added much later.

Michelle Stone [02:35:42] Yes. That it was.

John Dehlin [02:35:43] Made you question its validity?

Michelle Stone [02:35:45] Oh, yeah. Well, I just. Whoever it came from, it wasn't from God. Especially reading, because I was engaging with these people. And so I had. Sometimes people would challenge me. It was always polygamous. Men as well. It was like very. Some women joined, but usually men. And it was funny. I learned that one of their biggest insults for women is I would never want you as a wife. That was. I got that often. Which was like, what a strange insult.

Guest [02:36:06] You know, I guess that's the worst

Michelle Stone [02:36:08] insult in a polygamist mindset that you're not wife material. I'd like I got a husband. I'm good, thanks. But. But it was one of. I was challenged several times, but one time explicitly someone said, michelle, will you fast and pray about 132? And I was like, okay, yes, I will, I will. And so I did. And I knelt down and prayed after fasting. And. And I had this impression come to mind that was like read verse by verse asking which portions are of me. And that was the first time I had ever considered that it might some of it be from God and some of it not be from God.

John Dehlin [02:36:49] D&C 132 specifically. Okay, yeah.

Michelle Stone [02:36:51] Yep. And so I so I started to go through that exercise and then it was also when I read Jacob the book of Jacob next to DNC132, it could not be more apparent that these are not the same God because Jacob

John Dehlin [02:37:07] tell our non Mormons what Jacob says. Oh, so paraphrase.

Guest [02:37:10] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [02:37:10] So Jacob, Jacob 2 is the famous sermon. There's more of that. You have to read 1 and 3 as well to get the full impact. But Jacob 2 starts out the first half all about pride, which is actually incredibly apt because polygamy is the most prideful doctrine there is. I'm confused convinced of it. So the first half is about pride and then the second half is an absolute, inescapable, unavoidable prohibition and condemnation of polygamy. They were condemned for just desiring many wives and concubines. They misread the scriptures of Old Date like David and Solomon. And they those were the things. Anyway, we can go into it.

Michelle Stone [02:37:47] People like to claim that 230 is a loophole. And I so much work has been done to show that that does not work at all. In fact, in the church manuals they'll often change the words they'll do but or nevertheless on an ellipsis when it says for like it's building on what came before. And then they always ignore verses 31 through 35. I'm maybe going in a little but it's. It says for if I want to raise up seed, I will command my people, as God is doing here. And God says in 1st Nephi 7:1 that God wants to raise up seed through Lehi and his son.

Michelle Stone [02:38:19] So they go back and get the family of Ishmael and you can do the math, there's one each. Right. God created Adam and Eve to multiply and pledge the earth. Noah and the three sons. And there were eight souls on the ark. Monogamy.

John Dehlin [02:38:32] Right.

Michelle Stone [02:38:32] It's even good enough for the mountains.

John Dehlin [02:38:33] So lots of opportunities to raise up a seed in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon. God's not implementing polygamy to raise up a righteous seed.

Michelle Stone [02:38:42] Every time God wants to establish a people, God does it in monogamy. Without exception.

John Dehlin [02:38:48] As far as we know.

Michelle Stone [02:38:50] Well, if we're going to look at the scriptures.

John Dehlin [02:38:51] Yeah, right.

Michelle Stone [02:38:51] If we're going to look at the scriptures. And then the first polygamist is Lamech, who's this descendant of Cain who becomes the next Master Mahan.

Guest [02:38:59] The. Like. The. What is it?

Michelle Stone [02:39:01] The Son of Perdition. Right, Like. And that's the first polygamy. The first time polygamy is on the earth.

John Dehlin [02:39:06] This is where in the.

Michelle Stone [02:39:07] In both the Bible and in the Pearl of Great Price. If you look up. So look up Lamech. And that's the first indication we get of polygamy anywhere in scripture. And then 132 claims that. That God commanded Abraham. No, God did not command Abraham. Go to the Bible. God has never commanded polygamy.

John Dehlin [02:39:26] So in the Holy Bible, the Old Testament, Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon. God's not telling those prophets to take poor wives. As far as you read.

Michelle Stone [02:39:37] Yeah, well, I mean, I would argue it with anybody.

John Dehlin [02:39:39] And then you have.

Michelle Stone [02:39:42] And then also.

Guest [02:39:43] Like.

Michelle Stone [02:39:43] Like, yes, as far as I read.

Book of Mormon Passages Against Polygamy

Guest [02:39:45] But I read it.

Michelle Stone [02:39:46] Right.

Guest [02:39:47] And then also the.

Michelle Stone [02:39:49] I'm sorry, my voice is starting to get a little raspy, so just ignore. But yeah, also the. The claim that. What was the other claim? I was going to say. Oh, I'll have to get back to it. Anyway, the question. I'll get back to it. But the question was, what is Jacob to. It is an absolute unequivocal prohibition of polygamy.

John Dehlin [02:40:09] What are the words that actually prohibit it? Just say those words really quick.

Guest [02:40:12] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:40:13] It's. If it's.

Michelle Stone [02:40:14] I.

John Dehlin [02:40:14] The Lord view.

Guest [02:40:16] Let me.

Michelle Stone [02:40:17] Let me just get there really fast. I brought my. Well, I should have the whole thing memorized. You probably do.

John Dehlin [02:40:22] No, I put you on the spot. Whenever someone puts me on the spot, the words immediately escape my brain. I'm sure you've. I've heard you cite this.

Michelle Stone [02:40:28] I cite it all the time. I think the thing is, I don't want to just read that one verse.

Guest [02:40:32] I.

Michelle Stone [02:40:32] You know, I won't do that. But it's important to see that it's.

Guest [02:40:36] They. Many.

Michelle Stone [02:40:37] They did indeed have many wives and concubines, which was abominable. Unto me is one thing that he says about David having many wives and concubines is abominable. The Doctrine Covenants tries to twist that. To say only in the matter of Uriah, what. Like that is not what the book

John Dehlin [02:40:52] of Luke killed her husband.

Guest [02:40:53] Right.

Michelle Stone [02:40:54] And why is it not the matter of Bathsheba? Like. Like it's ridiculous that that's the only way that, that he sinned and then goes on. Let's see. The word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. So in. In chapter one, it's called a greater wickedness. And then it's called grosser crimes. For they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves and committing whoredoms because of the things which were written concerning David and Solomon his son. So pay attention that it says the things which were written, behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines. Which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord, wherefore? And then it goes down. And then I could. I mean, it's keeps going.

John Dehlin [02:41:32] So the Book of Mormon is saying David and Solomon's polygamy and concubinary is an abomination.

Michelle Stone [02:41:39] Is an abomination.

John Dehlin [02:41:40] It's not making conditions for that.

Michelle Stone [02:41:43] Right. And if you read this, it actually makes it quite clear that that was a big part of what Lehi was preaching against in Jerusalem. And part of why he had to leave is he was preaching against this perversion of God's establishment of marriage. Right. Here you have God wanting to raise up a righteous seed, and this is what the people do with it. And so, and then. And that. So when it says wherefore? And then it's interesting too. I just, I love the scriptures. This is my favorite part. But when it says, wherefore thus this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord, or of hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

Michelle Stone [02:42:17] And it goes on to curse the land and tell them that they will be destroyed. And isn't it fascinating that Wilford Woodruff claimed to have a revelation from God that said, if you don't knock it off, this is what's going to happen. The church will be utterly destroyed. Right. I see that as a fulfillment of what the Book of Mormon, of what the Book of Mormon says certainly wasn't

John Dehlin [02:42:35] good for the church after a while.

Guest [02:42:36] Ever.

John Dehlin [02:42:37] Ever.

Michelle Stone [02:42:38] It was never good for the church.

John Dehlin [02:42:39] Yeah, probably. Yeah.

Michelle Stone [02:42:41] And then it says, for if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts. And it says, for if I will, meaning building on what I just said. Right. Not in opposition to it. Raise up seed unto me. And it just says in verse 25, what it means to raise up seed is raise up a covenant people, which is what God said in 1st Nephi 7 he's doing with Lehi and his descendants. Right. If I will raise up seed to me, I will command my people. This entire chapter is God commanding his people. Don't do this thing. Right. And it says otherwise. If I don't command them, they shall hearken unto these things, the things written about David and Solomon.

Michelle Stone [02:43:15] Right. And if you look at it grammatically or in any other way, that's what it says. And then what's important is to go on to the next verse. For behold, I, the Lord have seen the sorrow and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, and because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands. And the entire rest of the chapter gives the reason that God always condemns and forbids it. So if we want to say that God sometimes commands polygamy, then we're saying then just God at sometimes doesn't care about women.

John Dehlin [02:43:47] Why do you think so? Like Gerardo, you know, Gerardo's interpretation of that verse. Because he. He would believe Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, not God. Gerardo wrote, it's obvious that Joseph was struggling with polygamy at a very early age. I'm guessing you wouldn't have that interpretation, correct?

Michelle Stone [02:44:07] Not at all.

John Dehlin [02:44:07] Yeah. So why was God worrying about polygamy during the time of Jacob in the Book of Mormon, do you think?

Michelle Stone [02:44:15] Well, it seems to me, and I, again, I hold my beliefs loosely. I'm never going to get into an argument with someone over whether this is a historical document or where it came from. I think I've also never seen it explained well where we got it. So I tend to really love the Book of Mormon unapologetically, and I'm okay with that, even if I don't understand everything about it. Right. But I do think that polygamy is something, according to this chapter, that was happening in the old world, Lehi was commanded. Verse 3 tells us that Lehi was commanded that they should not practice polygamy. And so. So what was her.

John Dehlin [02:44:49] So I actually was basically wondering why in Book of Mormon times, in the new world, God wanted this in the scriptures.

Michelle Stone [02:44:57] Yeah, I mean, well, I. I mean, if I'm gonna put on my faithful hat, the way. Yeah, the way that I see it, I mean, look what happened in the church. And we believe this is a Book that was brought forward to our church, and it's telling us what we need to know. It's a book written for us. Right. And so I actually find it to be profoundly kind of prophetic, miraculous and prophetic that it is telling us. I wouldn't.

John Dehlin [02:45:21] And them. And them.

Michelle Stone [02:45:23] Right, right. No, I'm saying that, yeah, like. Like, I wouldn't expect God to give us a book of scripture that condemns those other people over there.

John Dehlin [02:45:30] Right, right. Yeah.

Michelle Stone [02:45:31] You know, and so I actually think it gives us an opportunity. Opportunity to continue to be willing to believe it, because like I said, it also tells us, like, warns us to not treat it lightly. And if. And one of the things we can talk about, again, look up how many times it says many wives and concubines. And what's fascinating in the Book of Mormon. In the Book of Mormon, huh? It uses that term four times at least to condemn it. And then all of a sudden, in 132, we get the doctrine of many wives and concubines commanded by God in complete opposition to the Book of Mormon.

Michelle Stone [02:46:00] So I would say if Joseph was struggling with ideas of polygamy, he could have just left it out or he could have put it in somehow. And like 132 did, like, hey, you know, David and Solomon had some pretty cool ideas. Right. And he could also have.

Michelle Stone [02:46:16] When he translated the Bible. So after Joseph died, the. The Mormons who came to Utah really wanted to get the Bible from Emma. The Bible retranslation and the stories about that are pretty cool. Cool. Her faith in, she. She just felt very strongly that if she kept that safe, they would be protected. And the.

Michelle Stone [02:46:35] They were trying to get it from her, and if they couldn't get it, they wanted to destroy it. So they tried to burn her house down many times. According to the history, she would find the house have set on fire, but it wouldn't catch. And so she preserved the Bible. And I think that's amazing because now we can see that in Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible, which he did much later than the Book of Mormon, he actually increases the condemnations against David. There's no wiggle room for polygamy built in. And those. Those things, I think. And then if we look at Doctrine and Covenants, we have section 42, which was given as the law unto the church.

Michelle Stone [02:47:07] This was the law to the church. And verse 22 says, Thou shalt cleave unto them thy wife and none else. Right. I think right before that, it says, thou shalt not lie for you know, you can't lie for the Lord. You can't lie for polygamy. Verse first chapter on section 49 has another strong prohibition of polygamy that if I weren't fuzzy brained, I could quote for you. But we can look it up.

John Dehlin [02:47:27] So don't forget DNC101,

Michelle Stone [02:47:31] the original statement. Yeah, the original statement on marriage that Joseph added. That was.

John Dehlin [02:47:36] That was canonized in the original Doctrine and Covenants.

Michelle Stone [02:47:39] It was. It was accepted by unanimous, universal common consent. Every single organization in the church voted on it. And it said it was another extreme prohibition against polygamy. It said, in as much as this church has been reproved with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that one man should have, but should have one wife and one woman but one husband, except in case of death, where either is at liberty to marry again. Can't get much more clear than that. And those are the consistent scriptures that we have coming throughout Joseph's lifetime and canonized.

John Dehlin [02:48:09] And that lasted till what, 1876?

Michelle Stone [02:48:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:48:12] In the Doctrine and Covenants.

Michelle Stone [02:48:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:48:13] In 1870, the explicit prohibition by the doctrine and covenants of polygamy.

Michelle Stone [02:48:18] Yeah. So what became Section 132 did not show up at all until 1852, August of 1852, where Brigham Young.

John Dehlin [02:48:26] Not in Scripture yet.

Michelle Stone [02:48:27] No. Where he magically pulled it out of his desk. Brian Hales makes fun of me when I say magically because he thinks I'm being literal. I'm just saying, poof, look. Look what I've had locked in my desk. And none of you knew it. He says that. He says nobody knew it was there. I've had this in my desk for many years. Well, where did it come from? Did it cross the plains in his desk? Right. And so he pulls this out and it's so problematic. If we can dive into that another time, like hugely problematic. That's the first time it shows up. And then it's printed in the Deseret News.

Michelle Stone [02:48:53] So they are. They are living in complete opposition to their canonized scriptures because 132 is not in the scriptures, but 101 is. Well, it's 109 at that point, because in the 1844 version, it was 109. And that lasts almost throughout the entire period of polygamy. Right. Only 14 years before polygamy ends is 132 added. And now for the rest of the time, we're living in opposition to our scriptures again because we still have 132in where polygamy has been officially banned since 1890. So it's just an interesting. It's an interesting history that people should be aware of.

John Dehlin [02:49:28] Yeah. So it's kind of like the Book of Mormon and most of the Doctrine and Covenants and the pull of Great Price all converted you to the belief that D&C132 was not of God.

Michelle Stone [02:49:45] Absolutely. Yeah. Except the portions.

Guest [02:49:48] Except.

John Dehlin [02:49:49] Which is valid because they are contradictory.

Guest [02:49:51] They are.

Michelle Stone [02:49:51] They are. And God is in one of them. The God I know is in the Book of Mormon and is in the Doctrine and Covenants is not in doctrine and Covenants 132. 63. God does not. Not see women as possessions to be taken and given. And God does not establish this is not of God. Right. And so there was something else I was going to say. I'll have to. I'll have to.

John Dehlin [02:50:13] No. Dan Vogel's in the chat and he. He wants to. I think he and I both would have some. Want to have a conversation about the original revelation that Joseph Smith is reported to have received with Hyrum.

Michelle Stone [02:50:30] And that was based on Clayton's journal.

John Dehlin [02:50:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That there was. There were many reports of that revelation being shown around Nauvoo.

Michelle Stone [02:50:40] Yes. That all come out later. I would be happy.

John Dehlin [02:50:43] So Brigham wasn't necessarily the first time.

Michelle Stone [02:50:46] No, those. Those reports all came later.

John Dehlin [02:50:48] Yeah. Right, right.

Michelle Stone [02:50:49] I mean, like. Like those. Those reports of people having seen it came starting in 1869. So they claim. They backtrack and.

John Dehlin [02:50:57] Well, we'll get into this, though. Other than the novel Nauvoo council in. In 1843, people saying that they were told, and there are other reports of people. So we have contemporaneous reports in Nauvoo. Yeah, yeah. And we'll get. We'll get to all that. Anyway, I think Dan's just wanting to make sure people don't think that Brigham Young coming up with the document in 1850, whatever, is like, truly the beginning of. Of the idea of a revelation.

Guest [02:51:26] No. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:26] Okay.

Michelle Stone [02:51:27] There were.

Guest [02:51:27] There were.

Michelle Stone [02:51:28] Yes, we could get into that. But. But 132 in its current form first was first presented to the church, first read to the church, first seen in. And then. And then we can get. One thing I did want to say is that the portions of it that actually are about eternal marriage. And this is. This goes into my model of the

John Dehlin [02:51:45] earlier part of D&C.130.

Michelle Stone [02:51:47] Yeah. Like the teens.

John Dehlin [02:51:48] So you're praying. Let's go back to that. You're praying verse by verse in the doctrine and Covenants.

Michelle Stone [02:51:53] Yeah.

Guest [02:51:53] And I didn't really.

Michelle Stone [02:51:54] I didn't really make it through much. It was just the idea that some of it could be from God and some of it could not. So 1. Can I clarify something really fast? Because I do talk about my experiences with God, but I don't base my opinions on things on.

Guest [02:52:10] On my.

Michelle Stone [02:52:11] On. On what God tells me, if that makes sense. I really like the scripture by learning it, also by faith. And I feel like, for me, the spirit can tell me, like, what's the best language. I feel sometimes inspired, go look at that or go read that, you know, or sometimes I can feel a confirmation of an idea. But I really like critical thinking and I really like evidence. So I just wanted to clarify because some people say, oh, so God told you Joseph wasn't a polygamist. And I. It's so discouraging and demoralizing and, okay, inaccurate.

John Dehlin [02:52:41] So I don't want to. I don't want to push that off. This is the type of epistemological conversation I might save till later, but since you brought it up, I'm going to just. We'll hit it now.

Michelle Stone [02:52:51] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:52:52] So what I hear you saying is, is that you value evidence.

Guest [02:52:54] I do.

John Dehlin [02:52:55] You value truth.

Michelle Stone [02:52:56] Truth.

John Dehlin [02:52:56] And it would not be fair to just say she just felt that it was true and that's what she bases her position on.

Michelle Stone [02:53:05] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:53:06] Because anyone who you. I will never, ever, ever. I'm just saying it now. I will never have the command of Mormon history that you do.

Guest [02:53:13] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:53:15] So, like, what I'm trying to say is, like, you know a lot and you've researched a lot and you clearly care about evidence and facts and truth. That's very clear to me. And I think that's what you're also trying to say. It's not just warm buzzies, you know, that are your foundations.

Michelle Stone [02:53:33] Yes. Thank you for stating that. Well. And understanding and believing that. Because it's really frustrating to me with how much I work to. Really, honestly. I love being proven wrong. I have a big track record of very visible, visibly changing. I. I was, you know, I. I'm on record very often speaking when I was teaching Celestial Education on believing polygamy was of God and the lie at law of Zion, and I changed that.

John Dehlin [02:54:00] Did you ever feel like God told you polygamy was right?

Michelle Stone [02:54:03] No. No. It was just my.

John Dehlin [02:54:04] So have you ever been reversed on something you felt God had told you was right? You have.

Michelle Stone [02:54:09] Well, I mean. Or greater understanding coming. Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [02:54:13] Okay.

Michelle Stone [02:54:14] Homosexuality, My babies. Like, Like, I don't know that it's been like, that was wrong, but it might be that was partial or you misunderstood.

John Dehlin [02:54:22] Misunderstood. Okay. So you haven't shut the door of understanding or being open about any of this stuff.

Michelle Stone [02:54:30] No, not. I really. I know that people don't believe this about me, but genuinely, like, when I would listen to the atheist debates, I loved it. When a question was asked that bothered me that I couldn't answer, I would. I loved the exercise of talking to my kids about it and like, really pondering and praying about it and then having whatever epiphany I might have. You know, I like being challenged in my views. I know people might not believe that, but I really, genuinely do. And when I. I was very slow when I started my podcast, I did not want to get into the question of Joseph Smith for a variety of reasons.

Michelle Stone [02:55:05] The main one of which is that I think the God question is so much more important. And I felt like the Joseph Smith question always, like, eats the God. It's like, like, you can't even talk about God anymore because it's just about Joseph Smith. And then also, I knew. I knew what I was stepping in. If I were to come out and say Joseph wasn't a polygamist, I knew that that would be. I actually, by nature, I'm really high in agreeableness. I'm a people.

Guest [02:55:28] Please.

Michelle Stone [02:55:29] I don't like having everyone hate me.

Guest [02:55:32] So it really was.

Michelle Stone [02:55:34] It's been evidence that has convinced me. And if the second we find a child or some other really solid evidence, I will definitely have to grapple with that.

John Dehlin [02:55:43] Let me just, very quickly, we've gotten so many super chats. Life Take Two says. Hey, Life Take two. Check out her channel. She says, my cheating ex was a fierce monogamy affirmer. That's.

Michelle Stone [02:55:55] Oh, no, that's funny.

John Dehlin [02:55:57] That's ironic and tragic.

Michelle Stone [02:55:58] I'm so sorry.

John Dehlin [02:55:59] Yeah, yeah. Thanks for sharing. Boyd K. Boyd X. Thanks for your support. I'll just go through these super quickly. EJS says, what about the October 5, 1843 journal entry? I think she's talking about William Clayton there.

Michelle Stone [02:56:17] She's talking about the, the. The Willard Richards Joseph Smith journal. And, and we can go to that topic.

John Dehlin [02:56:22] What you trying to say there?

Guest [02:56:23] It's.

Michelle Stone [02:56:23] I think what she's saying is there is a one thing that has not been brought up in this study until the monogamy affirmer movement is the huge record of altered records. This huge pile of altered changed records. So we have many cases of Brigham Young writing in his history that they were engaged in revising the history of the church after Joseph's death. Right. We have Howard Corey, I want to say is his name, who was in Nauvoo after Joseph's death but then left in and joined the rlds. And he said that he was very troubled by watching them alter all of the records to fit what he called the new order of things. And then if we go in, we can see now, now that we have the Joseph.

John Dehlin [02:57:02] We know that Brigham Young rewrote Lucy Mack Smith's biography and tried to have

Michelle Stone [02:57:07] it burned and many, many. So if I showed you like I could pull up right now five different documents right now that Joseph or Hyrum. Well, even more than that preached or published or did something with. With like, like vehemently anti polygamists that were changed to give it a little loophole, to give it a little out to that were changed by Brigham Young and the later polygamists. And that hasn't been part of this conversation. Those are some of the sources we're trying to bring forward.

John Dehlin [02:57:33] Were you. And that this isn't a gotcha, but it just comes to my mind. Were you aware that Joseph Smith changed his own revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants from the earlier versions? You know, he would flip meanings. He would delete stuff. He would add stuff to revelations that were supposed to have been received years before. I didn't really understand the depth of that until we did the LDS discussions episode about that. Did you know that Joseph Smith and he's changed the Book of Mormon. He made several changes to the Book of Mormon. Not a gotcha. But I'm curious if you are aware of. I am aware the changing maybe starts with Joseph.

Michelle Stone [02:58:08] Yes. Well, no, no, no. I would disagree with that because Joseph wasn't changing somebody else's history to try to. To frame them as doing or saying the opposite of what they said. Joseph was changing his own history. And while that means the first vision too. Right. Well, I know the different first vision accounts. I don't want this to sound at all like a cop out. It's not. But I have my hands full with polygamy. I am aware of the other issues. I can't dive into everything the same way. And I guess like I'm just kind of about where God wants me, what God tells me to do.

John Dehlin [02:58:44] You know, you don't feel called to study that other stuff deeply right now?

Michelle Stone [02:58:48] Yes, I like, I can't. Yeah. I'm doing all I can on this topic and. And I feel like. Well, I can Tell you why I came to the. I feel like I'm not finishing things, not finishing stories.

John Dehlin [02:58:59] It's my fault. I'm sure it's my fault.

Guest [02:59:00] Oh, it's okay.

Michelle Stone [02:59:01] I can't even remember what I was going to say. I should read the Jacob. I mean the October 5, 1843 journal entry, because it's fascinating. Yeah. We could save that for another conversation. But Joseph said, walked up and down the street with scribe preaching and teaching against polygamy. Against. I can't remember, says it polygamy. Saying that anyone who is practicing or teaching polygamy.

Michelle Stone [02:59:24] I can't. My gosh. But it just says, Joseph forbids it. On this law, no man shall have but one wife. That was the original journal. Then we can see. So how they created the histories of the church and was they would take all of these sources that they would get and put them into a draft history. And it was where they would leave spaces, make changes, alterations. Right. And then they came up with the final history. And that's a really fun one to look at. I can post it below for anyone who wants to see it. I'm not able to share documents in this conversation.

Michelle Stone [02:59:53] It's good to see the documents. But you can see the original journal entry, the draft history, where it is written with lines in between, left to change it. And then you can see it's crossed out. And in a new pen, it writes in and says, for there is none, but only but one on earth at the time unto who these keys are forgiven. And I have constantly said, no man shall command shall have but one life unless I command otherwise. Or unless I, Joseph, give permission otherwise. Right. You can see to be revised, written over in the corner. Then you can see the revision. And then you see the final history, which is what we all grew up with. Right. It's not until we have the Joseph Smith papers that we can see these things.

John Dehlin [03:00:31] Yeah, I was this morning, like at 3am I was trying to prepare for this episode and I was learning. I was trying to learn more about the. The Austin cows and I. And so I learned that Austin, you know, it's alleged that Austin Cowell's daughter was sealed to Joseph Smith, you know, in 1843, as a precursor to him. Him stepping down from the Nauvoo Council.

Michelle Stone [03:01:00] Oh, see, those are all assumptions that we can argue.

John Dehlin [03:01:03] But yes, I'm telling you what I read.

Michelle Stone [03:01:04] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [03:01:05] So I'm reading that and then. And then I'm reading. Okay, so that's one. So Austin Cowell's Daughter was sealed to Joseph Smith. So then I go to look at some of the records that. That seem to be suggesting that. And it literally had her, as I read it. And this is something that came from, I think, Gary Bergera, where somewhere it was annotated that she was sealed to her husband. And then that was like crossed out. And I think it was Joseph F. Smith that wrote in sealed to Joseph Smith. I'm like, what? The facts, like, come on. I thought I was going to something really solid. And I'm like, why is Joseph F. Smith crossing out a record and then putting in she was sealed to Joseph Smith. Now, that doesn't mean she wasn't sealed to Joseph Smith. But it is like, weird.

Michelle Stone [03:01:53] It is weird.

John Dehlin [03:01:54] It's like deflating. I'm like, I got. Oh, crap.

Guest [03:01:57] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:02:00] So this is so interesting. This is what I started to find. Every single piece of evidence has huge problems. There's nothing in my mind. Everything I have seen is better explained as this later created evidence than it is as actual contemporary factual evidence.

John Dehlin [03:02:15] So frustrating.

Michelle Stone [03:02:15] It's so frustrating.

John Dehlin [03:02:17] I was trying to. Obviously, I'm gonna get her. Yeah, I'm gonna get her.

Michelle Stone [03:02:19] Right?

John Dehlin [03:02:19] And I'm like, I'm so glad I didn't run with that. I'm so glad I looked at the footnotes this time. You would have called me on that, right? You would have busted me. So freaking Joseph F. Smith.

Michelle Stone [03:02:29] Joseph F. Smith was like the first correlation committee and kind of the correlation committee on steroids, because he wasn't the first.

John Dehlin [03:02:34] I'd say Joseph Smith was, but we could talk about that.

Guest [03:02:37] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:02:37] Okay. I guess. I mean, like, like, yeah, that's. That's a fair point. But Joseph F. Smith, after the restoration was the first correlation. He's the one that took the lectures of faith out of the Doctrine and Covenants because he agreed with some point in lecture five. And then he is also the one that tried to compile evidence. And we have him writing a letter to Orson Pratt that says that he was shocked by the fact that there was no evidence of Joseph Smith's polygamy. He's asking Orson Pratt to write his story of polygamy, saying that he needs to create them because there's nothing. And Orson Pratt doesn't do that. And then also. So Joseph F. Smith, in one of his exchanges, I believe it was with Joseph iii. If not, it was with a different RLDS leader.

Guest [03:03:17] And I.

Michelle Stone [03:03:18] If I'm going to say Joseph iii, but he said, I. I challenge you to find one thing that my father Ever said in favor of polygamy and Joseph F. The only thing he could Find is this October 5th journal entry that was altered.

John Dehlin [03:03:31] Oh, wow. Yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:03:32] And so those kinds of things. This. Let me just make this point. Can I just quickly. This has been an interesting thing to me because I actually was very slow to be willing to accept that Joseph Smith didn't originate polygamy for a variety of reasons. But one thing that I find fascinating is the more evidence we get, the more access to documents, the more people studying the documents, the more scientific evidence, DNA, whatever, the stronger the case against Joseph Smith's polygamy becomes, in your view? Well, actually, no. It was much stronger before we had this monogamy. A firmer movement. I haven't seen anything come out of the Joseph Smith papers that has strengthened the argument that Joseph Smith was a polygamist or studying affidavits. And I would expect the opposite to happen.

John Dehlin [03:04:14] I don't know enough to agree or not agree, but I. I do think you know more than me, so I'm not going to argue.

Michelle Stone [03:04:20] I will acknowledge that I.

John Dehlin [03:04:23] No, it's good. Super quickly. I just want to be. I want to thank those who donate, make this possible. Celeste Adams, thanks for the support. Same with all the opposed. Donnie Lee Gringo in Brazil is asking a question about how you deal with the affidavits of Joseph's plural wives. We're going to get to that.

Michelle Stone [03:04:40] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:40] Donnie Lee Gringo in Brazil.

Michelle Stone [03:04:42] But just know I can answer that really quickly now.

John Dehlin [03:04:43] Just. Oh, you want to. You want to answer?

Michelle Stone [03:04:45] So Cheryl Bruno and I are actually writing a book on the affidavits that we're hoping will be out early next year.

John Dehlin [03:04:50] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:04:51] So that will be exciting.

John Dehlin [03:04:52] Stay tuned. Okay, cool.

Michelle Stone [03:04:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:54] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:04:54] I will just say this. The affidavits are not what you think that they are.

Guest [03:04:57] Are.

John Dehlin [03:04:57] Yeah, well, I mean, it almost sounds like in some instances, these women were given a template.

Michelle Stone [03:05:02] It was Joseph F. Smith making a form letter and then later filling in the names.

John Dehlin [03:05:07] Yeah, I mean, some of them. Not all of them, but some of

Michelle Stone [03:05:09] them, Joseph F. Smith's mostly are.

John Dehlin [03:05:12] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:05:12] The 1869 and 1870 that Joseph F. Smith did.

John Dehlin [03:05:15] Okay, well, I. I'm not gonna argue with you. Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:05:18] There are later ones that are more in the women's voices.

John Dehlin [03:05:21] Okay, so. Okay, so you. You're. So you're looking at DNC 132. You're finding that it just doesn't hold up Muster in your story. Where does that take you? So you're in this Homeschooling group, Facebook group, learning about polygamy. You start to question and doubt DNC132, what happens next in terms of leading you to your YouTube channel podcast.

Starting a Podcast and Engaging the Polygamy Debate

Michelle Stone [03:05:45] So, yeah, so I'll actually jump ahead because I had that Facebook group for several years. It was a lot of. Of fun to engage with a lot of angry polygamists that you would dare. A woman would dare question, you know, but. But it was.

Guest [03:05:56] It was.

Michelle Stone [03:05:56] It was really good. I learned a ton. And then I just kept having my babies. And then I had that experience when I was pregnant with my 12th when I was told to tell other women. And then. And then I went on to have another baby. And it was after that, it was in, I want to say January of 2022, that one day I was just told, it's time.

John Dehlin [03:06:15] This is three years ago. Three years ago you started.

Michelle Stone [03:06:18] Yes. And yeah, everything I've learned about church history has been in the last two

John Dehlin [03:06:21] and a half years that I just. My mind can't wrap around that.

Guest [03:06:24] It's been a lot.

John Dehlin [03:06:25] Yeah, you've Learned more in three years than I've learned in 50, 55.

Guest [03:06:30] I've been.

Michelle Stone [03:06:31] It's a very narrow and dedicated focus and I think my ADD hyper focus works. And then I tend to have. Be able to grasp things well sometimes, you know, so. But anyway, I was told it's time, and I actually was still in that dismal space. But I ended up one day because I just felt overwhelmed. Like, I can't. I don't know how to do this. I can't do this, you know, start a podcast.

Guest [03:06:57] I had no.

Michelle Stone [03:06:57] I'm not techie. I'm not. I don't design. I don't. I had no idea what to do.

John Dehlin [03:07:03] Right.

Michelle Stone [03:07:03] And I knew, I knew I wanted it to be called 132 priorities problems, because it's section 132. And I thought that was a fun name. And so I one morning woke up and it was just like, I compare it to Lee to Nephi being told how to build the ship. Because I just was. Because we still had. I don't even know how many kids we had home at that time. We have seven at home right now, so we must have had eight or nine at home.

Guest [03:07:27] Eight.

Michelle Stone [03:07:27] I guess I'll have to. I'll have to remember. But I was just kind of shown. This is the room you can use. This is how you can set it up. I was told call. I was told to call my son that. That son that. Anyway, my second Son, I was told, call him. And it just all came together, like, miraculously. And I just went up and recorded my first episode, my first 15 minutes episode, feeling like a complete idiot, because who cares about polygamy? What a random, bizarre, dumb topic to talk about in 2022. Right? Like, I. I was just like, okay, I. I'm feeling like I'm supposed to do this, so I'll do this. I had no idea what was going to happen.

John Dehlin [03:08:11] How much of a consumer were you of, like, other YouTube channels or other podcasts prior to?

Michelle Stone [03:08:17] I had listened to Lindsay Hansen Parks, for example.

John Dehlin [03:08:19] You're a polygamy, like, all the way through.

Michelle Stone [03:08:21] Okay, well, I started. I started late, but then I went back, you know, But I. I was frustrated by it because I had different information. You know, I'd read Carolyn Pearson's book, and that's also Ghost of Eternal Polygamy.

John Dehlin [03:08:33] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:08:34] Yeah, I thought she did a great job, but I still was kind of frustrated because what I wanted was sort of the scriptural exegesis, sort of the. This is theologically why you can know that polygamy is not of God for people, because that's who I was. Like, when I still believed in polygamy, I don't know that I would have read Carolyn Pierre person's book, but if I had, I might have been like, oh, this is really hard. I mean, I needed the. I really like the scriptures. I needed the, like, here's what God says. Here's what this scripture says. Here's what the scripture says. Here's what this church leader said compared to what the scripture said.

Michelle Stone [03:09:05] Right? Like, there is no defense for this. That, like, this. You cannot defend polygamy. And. And that I also went through before when I learned that polygamy was never of God. I went through a period of really, oh, gosh, just repentance feeling like. Because, of course, when I had imagined polygamy, when I was so busy with my big family, it was like, there'd be someone there to help me, you know? And so it was so. Again, so prideful and selfish. Like, oh, another woman's life is just to help me with my children. That's what her life needs to be. You know, I hadn't stopped to think about these things.

Michelle Stone [03:09:41] And then I also. And I've heard this from so many people. There's sort of a. A repentance process of believing that that's who God was, of believing that that could be the nature of God. And it's like, that is not God. And I'm sorry. Like, I really object to a human tendency to blame God for the mistakes of man. And I just. I think we need to not do that.

John Dehlin [03:10:03] That's what many of the church's gospel topics essays do. Is they. If something really like, they're like the priesthood ban.

Michelle Stone [03:10:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:10] Ultimately it wasn't that the members are racist. It's that we don't know God's mysterious ways.

Guest [03:10:16] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:10:17] But I so appreciate that Deseret book printed Paul Reeves book.

John Dehlin [03:10:20] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:10:21] And that we are. We are. I mean, I know it's hard and it's frustrating. I. I also know that the church leaders. I was thinking about this the other day, like, when my kids are in a fight and they all want the same thing and I'm trying to make them all happy and feel like I don't even know how to make my own kids happy when you're running a big church organization. And, you know, like, like, I don't. I don't want to be critical of the leaders because while there are things I disagree on, I. I just am. I just want to do my part.

John Dehlin [03:10:47] Yeah. And I'm not asking to be critical of them. I'm just noting.

Michelle Stone [03:10:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:51] That oftentimes in the church when we really don't have a good answer for something really awful that happened, like the priesthood and temple ban for black people, like polygamy. I don't think, think whoever writes those documents. We don't even. It's probably not the leaders. Whoever writes those documents tends to fall back to God. God's ways are mysterious. Which for my Christian and theist friends is so frustrating because many of my Christian and theist friends believe that that blaming of God for the horrific practices of humans kills God and creates ex Mormon atheists.

Michelle Stone [03:11:29] I 100% agree with you. I could not agree with you more. And. And it breaks my heart. And I find it very troubling and upsetting. I think.

Guest [03:11:37] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:11:38] I just, it's very. I mean, repentance is a universal. And all that God wants from us is a contrite spirit, a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and a willingness to repent. I think that God is actually cool with us being like, whoa, really messed that up. I'm really sorry. I'm going to try to do better. And I think that that's what we as individuals do. Like, I'm really happy to be someone who can tell my kids, I. I'm so sorry I did that wrong. Rather than, you know, the kind of parent that my kids can't criticize. And I. I would love it if we, as an institution could have that same approach a little bit more easily.

John Dehlin [03:12:13] Totally. Yeah. So you wanted. When you were watching, listening to Lindsay Hansen Park's Year of Polygamy, you were hoping for some sort of doctrinal, scriptural, theological, spiritual denunciation of polygamy, and instead it was more historical.

Michelle Stone [03:12:29] Well, I actually. And I don't want to.

John Dehlin [03:12:32] I was just not as a criticism of her, just. You were wanting.

Michelle Stone [03:12:35] Well, I'm just kind of. I might make it a little criticism. I don't mean to, but I was actually disappointed because I felt like what she was doing is making a podcast out of Todd Compton's book. Like, I felt that's basically.

John Dehlin [03:12:45] Basically each episode was a chapter in Todd Compton's book. I don't think she hid that.

Michelle Stone [03:12:49] Right. Okay.

John Dehlin [03:12:50] So I think that was the model.

Michelle Stone [03:12:51] That was the model. And I didn't feel like it was very.

John Dehlin [03:12:54] I mean, was it original? Is that your concern?

Michelle Stone [03:12:58] So I've had Todd Compton on my show, and I. I really like Todd. I'm thrilled that he's coming to our conference. You know, he did, I believe that he wrote his book when he was in a place of being quite frustrated with the church. He actually wrote his book to kind of give the church a black eye. And I think his church, his book was a fantastic groundwork to say, hey, let's focus on these women and let's tell these stories. But the fact that we kind of treat it as the magnum opus and now the work is done, rather than a first foray into the topic is really troubling to me.

John Dehlin [03:13:27] It's basically all the documents he could find about each of Joseph's 30 plus wives in a chapter. Is that right?

Guest [03:13:33] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:13:34] Yeah. Yes. But I feel like it's also a lot of speculation, a lot of almost historical fiction type storytelling at points.

John Dehlin [03:13:41] Todd does that.

Michelle Stone [03:13:42] Well, I mean. I mean, who am I to criticize Todd? No, that's just. Is my. My impression, you know, and then I also, when I go back and look at the sources, this is kind of what I think has happened with the polygamy debate. Can I. Can I go into that? So I think that this is what has happened. So first of all, the RLDS Church, as you said, there was a tug of war between the LDS church and the RLDS Church, and Joseph Smith's polygamy was a big part of that. Another part was the succession that it had to be lineal, which is why Joseph F.

Michelle Stone [03:14:08] Smith, who was really a troubled guy, was called into the apostleship quite young and groomed to be a leader. Right. So that they had. Look, we've got a Smith too, you know, so. But the polygamy was a big part of the time. Tug of war. And then in the. Well, I don't know when it started, but I know it was happening in the 60s. The RLDS church, they were training all of their leaders and historians at a very liberal methodist college called Saint 1960s. 1960s, yes. I sometimes get my sentence.

John Dehlin [03:14:35] No, no, no. I just want to make sure our listeners knew.

Michelle Stone [03:14:37] Okay, which.

John Dehlin [03:14:38] Yes. Which century?

Michelle Stone [03:14:39] Yes, that it is that century. And so. And there were several things that happened. The position papers that the leadership was working on were released sort of like a Mormon leaks, you know, and caused a huge rift and a huge division. There was a. There was a segment of the church that was. Most of the leadership and historians that had been trained in this liberal college that really wanted to become more ecumenical and less distinct. So they were wanting to separate themselves from Joseph Smith. They were wanting to separate themselves from their Mormonism and become more Christian. Right. And when they. Those position papers were released, that caused a huge uproar.

Michelle Stone [03:15:14] And then several other things happened. We started to get the, like Flanders, I want to say, is it. Robert Flanders wrote his book. Oh, is it Nauvoo Kingdom on the Mississippi Something, which is the first one I'm aware of, that kind of opened the door to Joseph Smith starting polygamy. And then we had Richard Howard's paper that caused a bit of an uproar. But it was really the, the women in the priesthood that caused the church to. To split.

John Dehlin [03:15:38] The RLS Church. Allowing women.

Michelle Stone [03:15:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:15:41] To have the priesthood.

Guest [03:15:42] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:15:42] Which was quite early in the, in the early 80s. That was quite avant garde, you know, and so. And so.

John Dehlin [03:15:48] In Mormon. In Mormon.

Guest [03:15:49] In Mormon.

Michelle Stone [03:15:50] You're right.

Guest [03:15:51] You are correct.

Michelle Stone [03:15:53] And so anyway, it was, it was that whole movement that caused the, the split. And actually the, the. My understanding is the largest and most sort of faithful highest tithing congregation foundations split off and formed the restoration branches. And so I think it's a misnomer to believe that the RLDS church just. They wanted Joseph Smith to not be a polygamist, but the evidence was so strong they just couldn't deny it anymore. That's actually not accurate. They were motivated to separate themselves from Joseph Smith and that was one thing that they did. And also. And to separate themselves from the Book of Mormon as well to some extent. I don't want to speak for community of people I know there are people in faith everywhere in the community.

John Dehlin [03:16:35] It is very possible that leaders and historians in the RLDS Church just looked at the documents and decided that the evidence weighed in favor of Joseph being a polygamist.

Guest [03:16:45] Right. So.

Michelle Stone [03:16:45] Well, I think. I think they brought their bias to it because we can read. So what I think is more useful to do, rather than saying the RLDS Church admits it was actually isn't quite true because the RLDS church that didn't believe it split off and became the restoration branches. And that's where from we came get Richard and Pamela Price and others that did all of the research, did so much research to show that Joseph was not a polygamist. And the ones who were wanting to go in the liberal direction did that. But what I moved that direction. But what we can do is look at their books and papers and see what evidence they rely on.

Michelle Stone [03:17:16] Does that make sense? So we don't need to just say they changed their mind. That's not good scholarship. What we should do is say what made them change their mind and see if it's as solid as they claim it is. And I don't think it is.

John Dehlin [03:17:24] Dan Vogel is saying the split was also about the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

Michelle Stone [03:17:29] Yes, I believe that's true. Thanks, Dan.

Guest [03:17:32] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:17:32] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:17:33] Yeah. They wanted to separate themselves from Joseph and from. The real connection to the Book of Mormon is my understanding. And so. But why I think that's important is because that the RLDS Church, dropping their side of the tug of war, let the narrative just stand unquestioned. Right. And so from that point on, anything that was. Was discovered. It was. I believe it was around that time or after that, like the affidavits were discovered or that, like. So every new discovery was like more evidence of Joseph's polygamy. And it was never questioned, it was never critically examined. It was just accepted with excitement as telling us this narrative.

Michelle Stone [03:18:09] And that's where we've come since, you know, since really the 80s. And that's why I think this is emerging, because we're going back now that we all have access to those documents and reexamining them and going, okay, now let's rethink this. There are a ton of problems here.

John Dehlin [03:18:24] So the lack of a. Of attention, you're saying, led to some lack of scrutiny.

Michelle Stone [03:18:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:18:31] Of the sources.

Michelle Stone [03:18:32] Yeah. Like, if I. If I. Forgive me, but. But that's one thing that Cheryl and I said in our response to your.

John Dehlin [03:18:38] Yeah. That we didn't have you on the LDS discussions episode? Right.

Guest [03:18:42] Well, yeah, I just.

Michelle Stone [03:18:42] I just said I. The only way I know to overcome bias. The only way I know to overcome bias is to engage with someone who disagrees with you. Because I know that you and Julia and Nemo were trying really hard to look at things fairly and without bias, but I think it's impossible if there's not someone pushing back.

John Dehlin [03:18:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I agree. I totally agree. So I. I apologize to you. I apologize to Cheryl. Humble pie. I know you're not asking me to do that, but I agree.

Michelle Stone [03:19:10] Well, so thank. So what I'm wanting people to realize is that is what's happened in the broader polygamy discussion. So I keep trying to tell people, you guys want us. We are making everyone's scholarship better instead of just shutting us up. You need to dig deeper and do better and come up with better arguments and find better sources because we're poking holes in what you have so far.

John Dehlin [03:19:32] Yeah, no, it's good. It's good. Yeah. Any scientist slash scholar should welcome scrutiny.

Michelle Stone [03:19:39] I agree.

Guest [03:19:40] I agree.

John Dehlin [03:19:41] Yeah. Okay. So you weren't crazy about Lindsay Hansen Parks, your polygamy podcast. In some ways, yeah. And so what happened then?

Michelle Stone [03:19:52] Oh, I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:19:53] Did you read Todd's book?

Guest [03:19:55] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:19:56] So most of those books, I. I spend most of my time in the footnotes, so I don't necessarily read them through cover to cover.

John Dehlin [03:20:02] Wow. So you're an original source.

Michelle Stone [03:20:04] Oh, 100. I think that is the only way to study political.

John Dehlin [03:20:07] Interesting.

Michelle Stone [03:20:08] I think anything else you do is asking for these problems.

John Dehlin [03:20:11] Oh, wow.

Michelle Stone [03:20:11] Because we have. What we have at this point is interpretations based on interpretations of interpretations.

John Dehlin [03:20:16] So. Yeah. So Todd's perspective just is. Is. Is. No is. It puts you at risk of just being misled.

Michelle Stone [03:20:23] Yeah. Like, yeah, it's interesting to engage because there are a lot of people who've read a book, they've read Todd Compton or they've read something else, and they're like, oh, my God, gosh, she is a flat Earther. She's a. You know, and they all it is. Is, like, I've been told this, so I know it's true. And I'm just asking for people to hold a little space, that maybe. Maybe there's more to this story than you. That I. I did compare it to people who leave the church. Can I go into that?

John Dehlin [03:20:45] Yeah. Like, sure. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Michelle Stone [03:20:47] Is that all right?

John Dehlin [03:20:48] Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:20:49] So I messaged John, I don't know how long ago it's been but a year or two ago.

John Dehlin [03:20:52] Yeah, yeah.

Guest [03:20:53] And.

John Dehlin [03:20:53] And yeah, because I, I didn't ask you this, but like, like I know that the term conspiracy theorist is offensive and you don't even like the term polygamy denier. Well, right.

Michelle Stone [03:21:05] Well, I think that. I do think it's a pejorative and it's not that. I think it's also misleading. Like when I watched during Julia's and Nemo's episode, I saw that you, it looked to me like you actually believe that term, which isn't an accurate term. I don't deny that polygamy happened. I don't deny Nauvoo polygamy. Right, right. So I think, and I also think that any of sort time you call someone a denier, you are calling them a conspiracy theorist. You know, that's what it's intended.

John Dehlin [03:21:27] Holocaust denier. 9, 11.

Michelle Stone [03:21:30] Yeah, yeah, all of that. And so, and I think this is just more accurate and takes us out. I just, I would like to move. So far the discussion has been so hampered by ad hominem attacks and appeal to authority, which are both logical fallacies. And calling someone a conspiracy theorist or a flat earther or a polygamy denier is just ad hominem. And then saying the whole historical consensus census agrees is just appeal to authority. And I, I'm like, okay, let's talk about the documents. How about that? Right. And so there was one other question you asked that I was going to answer or one other thing I was seeing.

John Dehlin [03:22:00] Oh. So, yeah. So I think you were just wanting to talk about the, the value of engaging, having you in the conversation.

Michelle Stone [03:22:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:13] But also how ex Mormons have been mislabeled and you connecting with them.

Michelle Stone [03:22:18] Yes, yes. So I, so I messaged John with what I thought was a really good point. It was one of the times that you did an episode on polygamy deny or something or other, I think. And I, and so I sent John a message. I sent you a message. And I just pointed out, like, I have really valued your research you did on why people leave the church, and I've really been an advocate for that. I'm troubled. Any. Anytime we're sitting in church and they're talking about people who leave, I tend to speak up, you know, because I just don't like us to label people. So anytime we talk about people who leave and say they just wanted to sin or they never had a testimony

John Dehlin [03:22:49] or they were offended, or even calling them anti Mormons.

Michelle Stone [03:22:52] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:53] Which is a pejorative.

Michelle Stone [03:22:55] Oh, that's good to know.

John Dehlin [03:22:56] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:22:56] Do you like ex Mormon? What do you like?

John Dehlin [03:22:58] I mean, everyone's different.

Michelle Stone [03:22:59] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:23:00] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:23:00] All right.

John Dehlin [03:23:00] But. But I'm not even speaking for me.

Michelle Stone [03:23:03] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:23:03] Generally, like you with. With polygamy Denier, the. The label anti Mormon has been used to kind of dismiss people instead of the source documents being legitimate or legitimately concerning. Oh, they just have an axe to grind.

Guest [03:23:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:23:19] They just wanted to sin. They just wanted to drink.

Michelle Stone [03:23:21] They can leave the church. They can't leave the church alone.

John Dehlin [03:23:23] That whole way to dismiss labels are weighted.

Michelle Stone [03:23:25] Right. And so that's what I pointed out to John, is that just the same way that it's hurtful when a lot of people who leave the church want to say to their family and friends, maybe I've read things that you haven't read. Maybe I've learned things that you haven't learned. Right. Maybe there are reasons that I am actually a logical thinking, good person who made a decision based on evidence. Right. And so that's what I wanted to say is like with the polygamy Denier label, when they just say, oh, she just couldn't handle her cognitive dissonance or, oh, she just has her bias. She just had to have Joseph on a pedestal. And she Learned about the 2014 essays and. Right. It does the exact same thing where it dehumanizes and minimizes the experience. Where I want to say, maybe there are things I've read that you haven't

John Dehlin [03:24:04] yet read, which is for sure true for almost everyone in the world. You are in the 99.9 percentile of reading stuff on Mormon.

Michelle Stone [03:24:15] I feel like I'm setting myself up for a fall just so everyone knows. There is a lot more I need to read.

John Dehlin [03:24:20] I am your. I am your witness.

Guest [03:24:22] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:24:23] I feel like I've been like drinking from a fire hose trying to master this.

John Dehlin [03:24:27] No, it's impressive body of work. It's impressive. Okay. So you decide you want to do 132 problems. YouTube, you create it originally, it wasn't going to be a deep historical dive or was it?

Michelle Stone [03:24:39] No, theological.

John Dehlin [03:24:40] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:24:41] And I thought Maybe I'd have 132 episodes. Maybe that might be fun, but kind

John Dehlin [03:24:44] of scriptural and theological. Okay. And then how. What happened?

Michelle Stone [03:24:48] And then. Okay, I don't want to. Then as I studied, I really argued against people and pushed back against people who were talking about Joseph's polygamy because I kept being lumped in with that, you know, And I was like, that's not the important question. Whether it was Joseph Or Brigham. We have the same problem in the church is kind of what I was.

John Dehlin [03:25:08] Polygamy is the problem. Doesn't matter who did it.

Guest [03:25:10] Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:25:10] Like the church has the same problem whether it's Joseph or Brigham. Right. It was my perspective. So that isn't the important question. The question is, is it from God? Right. That was my perspective. And I also felt like it detracted from that more important question. Right. But I eventually learned that I, I came to. So one of those times I came to believe differently. I felt like I got a very different answer and learned actually it is important. And it was time for me to start delving into that more. And. And that was challenging. I will. I'll jump ahead a little. I told John this.

Michelle Stone [03:25:40] I was really. I was reading the things that people were writing. St. Joseph wasn't a polygamist and I was really taking it seriously. But I have had some real hang ups that I was like, I don't know how you get past that piece of evidence. Like, you know, do you need to do a super chat? I can pause.

John Dehlin [03:25:55] No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Guest [03:25:56] All right.

Michelle Stone [03:25:57] And I, you know, I really had some hangups. And then gradually just something would happen and I would go, oh, and see that evidence in a new light that I hadn't considered before.

Guest [03:26:06] Right.

Michelle Stone [03:26:07] You know, that happened a couple of times and there were still things that bothered me, but I. But that kept happening. And it was. Was then.

Early Doubts About Joseph Smith and Polygamy

John Dehlin [03:26:14] Are you comfortable sharing what some of the biggest early problems were that then you got over just because it would show that you had empathy for the people.

Michelle Stone [03:26:22] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:26:23] So what were. When you had hang ups? What were some of the biggest ones?

Michelle Stone [03:26:27] I thought William Marks. I could not find a way past William Marks.

John Dehlin [03:26:30] Tell people what that means. He was a. He was in. He was a stake president, right?

Michelle Stone [03:26:34] Yeah, he was the stake president in Nauvoo. And then he joined the rlds and I think he became an apostle. Cheryl's gonna kill me for not knowing because she did his biography. But he has some statements that I was like, I don't know how you get past that.

John Dehlin [03:26:45] Saying what? Basically just saying.

Michelle Stone [03:26:47] So he talks about. And he tells the story multiple times, saying that near the end of his life, Joseph came to him and said, I'm going to root polygamy out of the church. I feel it will be our destruction. I should look at the quotes exactly.

John Dehlin [03:26:56] Because he's basically saying, number one, I was with Joseph and he was teaching polygamy. And then late in life, Joseph backtracked

Michelle Stone [03:27:03] No, he was saying that Joseph said to him that I have been. Been deceived about polygamy, and I. I fear it will destroy the church that

John Dehlin [03:27:10] Joseph shouldn't have been practicing.

Michelle Stone [03:27:12] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:27:13] And you found the that to be compelling?

Michelle Stone [03:27:15] Very compelling. I was like, I don't know how

John Dehlin [03:27:17] you get past as evidence that Joseph

Michelle Stone [03:27:19] had practiced it, because I find William Marks to be very reliable.

John Dehlin [03:27:22] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:27:22] You know, and then another one I was really troubled by. I didn't understand the documentation of Fanny Alger, but I was really troubled by it because.

John Dehlin [03:27:30] Trying to understand, was it an affair? Why was Joseph before the ceiling or. Or the pilgrim revelation come. Joseph is allegedly having an affair with a. A girl who lives in his home. Lives in a home like those.

Michelle Stone [03:27:45] And I didn't know the documentation well enough. I couldn't find a way through that. I was like, something happened with Fanny is kind of what I thought, you know? And. And. And for me, I just. I tend to have a high bar, a high standard if, like. Like, I go crazy with the arguments of, oh, this is what happened with Fanny. It was just a ceiling or it was just a. Whatever. What I'm like, if Emma felt betrayed, it was not okay. Right. So if he so believe Emma, you

John Dehlin [03:28:12] were kind of feeling.

Michelle Stone [03:28:13] Yeah, like, I'm like, if Emma was betrayed, I'm not on the team with, you know, like, oh, well, I should go back. When I did think that Joseph had originated polygamy, I just genuinely, based on some other conversations I'd had with some people before telling me their personal experiences, I just believed that he had lost his spiritual protection and that's why he was able to be killed. That was my.

John Dehlin [03:28:33] So maybe Joseph went into apostasy.

Michelle Stone [03:28:36] Well, just.

John Dehlin [03:28:36] I don't know if he was a follow prophet.

Michelle Stone [03:28:39] No, I wouldn't use that strong of a.

John Dehlin [03:28:40] You never got there.

Michelle Stone [03:28:41] Just.

John Dehlin [03:28:41] I mean, I think plenty of people do.

Michelle Stone [03:28:42] Yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [03:28:43] But people believe that Joseph just was a fallen prophet.

Michelle Stone [03:28:45] Yeah, I would. I wouldn't have ever used that language. It was just like he dabbled in this at least.

John Dehlin [03:28:50] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:28:51] Like, he at least dabbled.

John Dehlin [03:28:52] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:28:53] And that's not okay with God is. Is kind of where I was.

John Dehlin [03:28:55] And that's how he was allowed to be killed.

Guest [03:28:57] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [03:28:57] That was my. That was my perspective.

John Dehlin [03:28:59] So you got. You got to that point.

Guest [03:29:00] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:29:01] Okay. Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:29:01] I was there for quite a while once I learned that polygamy was not of God. That's kind of.

John Dehlin [03:29:05] Was this before 132 problems.

Michelle Stone [03:29:08] I thought that for many years.

John Dehlin [03:29:09] So there's never Been a point during your YouTube channel where you still believe that Joseph Smith probably practiced.

Guest [03:29:16] No.

Michelle Stone [03:29:17] The first almost year of it, I did. I started my YouTube channel in that place.

John Dehlin [03:29:20] Do those episodes still exist?

Michelle Stone [03:29:23] I just avoided it because I was just talking about the scriptures. I was just saying no matter who started it.

John Dehlin [03:29:27] So for the first year of 132 problems, you were just concerned with polygamy as a practice and of the scriptures, not of whether or not Joseph. Oh, wow.

Michelle Stone [03:29:39] And I used to say, like, it doesn't. Like I would. I would be frustrated by the Joseph conversation because I felt. Felt like people were kind of saying, if Joseph started it, then it's of God, and if it's not of God, then Joseph didn't start it. You know, And I, I. That bothered me, you know?

John Dehlin [03:29:53] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:29:54] It felt just like a bias that I didn't have evidence for.

John Dehlin [03:29:57] So what turned you?

Michelle Stone [03:29:59] Yeah, so it was when. Sorry. It was actually when I did my episode on Emma that I. That I was like, talk about that.

Guest [03:30:10] So I did.

John Dehlin [03:30:11] Most people don't know anything about him other than. And they think she's awful or, you know, whatever. They praise her, but they really don't know.

Michelle Stone [03:30:18] Yeah, I did a. I did a deep study of Emma.

Guest [03:30:21] And you can read.

Michelle Stone [03:30:21] We have, we have.

John Dehlin [03:30:22] Did you read Mormon Enigma?

Guest [03:30:23] Uhhuh.

Michelle Stone [03:30:24] Yep. And we have several letters.

John Dehlin [03:30:26] Well, the footnotes in it.

Michelle Stone [03:30:26] Mormon Enigma.

Guest [03:30:27] I did.

Michelle Stone [03:30:27] I did read many, many, many of the footnotes. All of the relevant footnotes. And we have many letters that she wrote. We have histories of people talking about her and. And Emma. From what I have been able to see, other than some late biased sources like William Law or Joseph Jackson in Nauvoo, like some sources that I tend not to hold to the same level as the universal sources coming from somewhere else. Well, and also Brigham Young is a source that I don't give as much.

John Dehlin [03:30:55] Also Clayton, Right. Clayton says he talked to Emma about some of the polygamous.

Michelle Stone [03:30:59] Well, yeah, we can get to Clayton because that. Yeah, yes, that's a good point.

John Dehlin [03:31:02] He's a problematic source from your perspective.

Michelle Stone [03:31:05] Well, I believe he's a problematic source, period.

John Dehlin [03:31:07] Yeah, I know.

Michelle Stone [03:31:08] Yes. But he does have things to say about Emma. But as I read everything else that didn't come from the polygamists or the. I don't know what I could call Doctrine Covenants refers to them as the testimonies of TR Traders. It tells Joseph, my friends will not be swayed by the testimonies of traitors. So we can call like Bennett or Jackson or Law that if we want to. But, but everything I read about Emma talked about how, how wonderful she was. And when I read her letters, the intellect and sincerity and goodness. And when I read through the journals of when Joseph was in hiding in 1842, and the letters back and forth between them, I just came to.

Michelle Stone [03:31:45] And then, and then I read what Brigham Young said about Emma, and he had a lot to say about Emma once the RLDS church missionaries started coming out. Even though, remember, she was not the head of the church. Right. It was. But he had a lot of things, things to say about Emma, and I just didn't believe it was true. I'm like, these stories do not fit with this woman who was talked about this way by everybody else.

John Dehlin [03:32:08] Smear job. You felt she had been maligned by Brigham Young.

Michelle Stone [03:32:13] And, and I'm, I'm really.

Guest [03:32:17] It, it's painful to me that we

Michelle Stone [03:32:20] still tend to see Emma through the lens of Brigham Young. I, I think that does a disservice to Emma Smith for sure, but also to all of the women in the church throughout the rest of the, you know, throughout the rest of the church. I think that I did an episode on this a little while ago when there was that uproar with something posted on Instagram about the Relief Society. Anyway, I, I, I just think that redeeming Emma is important. And it was when I studied her life. For me, saying Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy was not about Joseph. Joseph Smith nearly as much as it was about Emma. Because if these things are true about Joseph, then they're true about Emma. Right.

John Dehlin [03:32:58] So it's not that no man would cheat on a woman. So amazing.

Michelle Stone [03:33:03] No, no, no, no. It's the, it's, it's the polygamist. If, if Joseph is a polygamist, then we have a version of Emma that she's a raving lunatic, shoving women down the stairs, screaming at Joseph, having him beat her.

John Dehlin [03:33:15] Like, disagreeing with it, but then agreeing with it, but then disagreeing with it.

Michelle Stone [03:33:19] Washy, having no moral compass. Like, like it does not make sense.

John Dehlin [03:33:22] And then lying about it later and saying it never happens.

Michelle Stone [03:33:25] Yeah, like, I cannot find this. Like, her biography is called Mormon Enigma because it does not make sense. The polygamist narrative of Emma doesn't make sense at all when we look at who the woman actually is. And also, there are several things that people just kind of poo poo and brush away that they shouldn't. Like what polygamous leader puts a woman in high position in charge of the church who fights against polygamy. If he wants to practice polygamy. Right. Like Brigham Young's relationship with women was so different from Joseph Smith's. And all of these things fit really well with Brigham Young's personality and relationship with women.

Michelle Stone [03:34:03] We have talks from Brigham Young as early as 1845. What does he say? No man, no woman will get to heaven, but that a man leads her. And any woman, that any man that is led by a woman will. Will go to hell. God knew what Eve was.

Michelle Stone [03:34:18] So he's, you know, like. Like there are some. There's some strong language from Brigham Young that fits with the polygamist model and the polygamist mindset. And I can't find that in Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [03:34:30] This is just a comment that I'm seeing that just because I respect Dan Vogel, I, you know, I'll show it. Now he's saying, when you think of Emma, think of Hill, Hillary Clinton, in other words. I think what he means by that is you. You sigh. I assume what he means is like, you've got. You. You're in a marriage. You've got a unfaithful spouse, an opportunist,

Michelle Stone [03:34:54] and so you'll go along to get along because there's something free. Like, I don't think that generally people think of Hillary Clinton in the highest terms. People at least that look at that like. Like we see her.

John Dehlin [03:35:04] It depends. Some people think she.

Guest [03:35:07] Right.

John Dehlin [03:35:07] I mean, what I like to think of is Eleanor Roosevelt. Like, FDR is one of the most. He served four terms. I mean, he died in his fourth term, but, like, he's a loved president,

Michelle Stone [03:35:17] but again, he was a.

John Dehlin [03:35:18] He had a mistress. And I think Eleanor Roosevelt has had a mistress, but they also both believed in his presidency, in saving America, and they were partners, but they just understood maybe sexually they weren't super compatible. It doesn't have to be. See, so I'll say Eleanor Roosevelt, not Hillary, to take all the negativity around Hillary off the table. But I could see a couple saying, maybe Eleanor's. Maybe I'm lesbian. Or him saying, I need. I need other things. Maybe we don't have the same Libido. It's the 30s and 40s. We're trying to save America. So there are things bigger than just whether or not we're monogamous. So we have an arrangement. Right.

Michelle Stone [03:36:00] I hear you, but there's nothing evil

John Dehlin [03:36:01] about that in my.

Michelle Stone [03:36:02] Sure, I hear you, but I think it's missing the point. If we had some people claiming that he had this affair and that Eleanor was throwing people down the stairs and was trying to poison him. It was out of control. But every other. It's not. It's not about that Joseph was cheating on Emma. It's about who Emma is in this narrative. It's about who we have to believe Emma is and what she did. That doesn't. That's. That's what I object to. It's not just that I say, oh, he couldn't have cheated on her. It's the, like. No, the things that the polygamy narrative necessitates Emma doing don't make sense to me. But that was just my first. That's not. That's not what I base my entire opinion on.

John Dehlin [03:36:40] Sure.

Michelle Stone [03:36:41] But that was kind of the thing that made me. And then. And then, in addition to that, there were. There were other things. Like, I mean, learning that there is not a single record of polygamy in Nauvoo of Joseph's polygamy. Not a journal entry, a letter ceiling record. You know, like. Like you just can't find anything. And we can find quite a bit of other Nauvoo polygamists even before Joseph's death, but we can't find anything from Joseph. But we find constant, ongoing, like, I don't even like to call Joseph's and Hyrum's and Emma's actions denials, because what it actually is is a massive anti polygamy campaign.

Michelle Stone [03:37:21] Constantly, almost every day they were fighting against it. And that's in the records that we can find now. So I have a really hard time. Like, people say that I have a conspiracy theory, and I'm like, wait, wait, wait. You're telling me that Joseph had so much power and control, that he was doing this and keeping it so secret that no one even wrote anything in Nauvoo anywhere? And I'm the one with the conspiracy theory. You know, I think it's a conspiracy either way. I just. I just think that the conspiracy with Joseph of. Is much harder to get behind. It requires way more people. It requires much more effectiveness, and I

John Dehlin [03:37:56] don't know enough to contest that position that there's no contemporary evidence in Nauvoo affirming Joseph Smith.

Michelle Stone [03:38:03] There are things like the Nauvoo Expositor which we could talk to, because I'm talking about. That's an important issue. But that does not. What I'm talking about is a journal entry, a letter, a ceiling record, anything we would expect to find, not to mention a child. Right. And we have other. Like, I was really Amused that Julia and you pulled out the other Nauvoo polygamists having children. As if that is surprising to us or hurts us. For me, that's a huge point in the. In favor of our argument that here we had these other polygamists barely dabbling in. In polygamy compared to Joseph having children. We claim Joseph had this huge polygamy and there's not a single child. That's a big problem.

John Dehlin [03:38:43] There were polygamous children born pre Joseph Smith's death in Nauvoo. At least five.

Guest [03:38:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:38:49] But none from Joseph, you're saying?

Michelle Stone [03:38:51] Yes. So we know that we have a lot of evidence of other polygamists in Nauvoo, mainly that inner circle people don't realize Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball were best friends their entire lives. Willard Richards, I want to say, was Brigham Young's cousin. And Heber C. Kimball was the mission president in England when they. Well, they made him. They trained him up in England when they were on their mission there. And he came over with him there so we can find that little core group.

John Dehlin [03:39:16] And people are saying, what about John? John C. Bennett? We're going to get to all that. We're not quite there. Gerardo wanted me to. Gerardo really wants me to make one point, and this is not related to where we are right now, but I'm. I'll forget it if I don't. He says, john, I think you need to make the point that the LDS discussions episode that you and Cheryl responded to was not about responding to you, Michelle stone.

Guest [03:39:39] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:39:39] Or 132 problems. It was more about Brian Hales and trying to reflect.

Michelle Stone [03:39:45] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:39:46] Because as you said, as I think you and Cheryl have said, other than Brian Hills, there hasn't been a lot of work done, work done around Joseph Smith polygamy and potentially Joseph Smith's sexual polygamy other than Brian Hales. So I think Julia just basically relied heavily on what the work he's done. And she was trying to reflect that we weren't.

Michelle Stone [03:40:06] That's good, too.

John Dehlin [03:40:07] We weren't thinking, let's refute Michelle and everything she said. I think just because I never watched anything you've ever done until after that episode. Until we started engaging.

Michelle Stone [03:40:18] Right.

John Dehlin [03:40:18] Not. Not two minutes of anything you've ever done. Not. Not out of disrespect. It's just. Yeah, I don't have time.

Michelle Stone [03:40:23] But see, isn't it interesting that you knew all about me as a polygamy denier and you knew I was crazy. And you, when you hadn't engaged with anything.

John Dehlin [03:40:31] I'm embarrassed.

Michelle Stone [03:40:32] I want to thank you for having me on, and I hope that other people will listen to that. That, like, I just, I think this is huge of you, John, and I want you to know how much I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [03:40:42] Well, thank you.

Michelle Stone [03:40:43] Willing to talk to me.

John Dehlin [03:40:44] I'll tell you, I'll tell you honestly, like, you know, I, I, I went to some of my most trusted friends. I'm like, I think I want to interview Michelle. And I think, think even people very close to me are like, never interview her, never platform her. And, and there are a lot of people that are like, I'm not, I'm not going anywhere near that. I don't touch that even saying it's dangerous or, oh, you know, problematic to even platform Michelle. And I, I feel strongly that I disagree with that. I think that your command of the history and the, the even just the position you're taking, like you, We've already said is going to make us all better if we engage. But also just your intellect and your, your command of the history deserves respect and attention.

Michelle Stone [03:41:33] My goodness.

Guest [03:41:34] Thank you.

Michelle Stone [03:41:35] Yeah, I, I really, really appreciate that.

John Dehlin [03:41:37] Yeah. And that doesn't mean I agree with your interpretation.

Michelle Stone [03:41:40] You don't have to. No, no. I, I will say this. The thing I am the dragon. I am fighting right now. The battle I have is I just want people to acknowledge that there is a discussion to be had. Yeah. I don't, like, we haven't had the discussion yet, so it would be, it would be premature for anyone to jump to it. Well, I don't even think we can have the discussion now. Like, this is the journal of Mormon Polygamy. That we need the scholarship to continue to be done. And I just want people to recognize. Oh, the scholarship. Like, people somehow think everything's been said about polygamy that needs to be said, which is, is.

John Dehlin [03:42:12] No, it's not even close.

Michelle Stone [03:42:13] No. And it's actually the most fascinating part of Mormonism. It's like there is so much work to do.

John Dehlin [03:42:20] Yeah. Really quickly, Brooklyn wanted to make the point that we've discussed that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of, Is not evidence, in other words, of absence.

Michelle Stone [03:42:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:42:30] Just because Joseph didn't. There's no evidence of Joseph fathering children in no way means anything about whether or not he practiced polygamy or had sex.

Michelle Stone [03:42:39] I think that's a little too flippant. I, I mean, if there, I just

John Dehlin [03:42:43] want to hear you. That's what people think or.

Michelle Stone [03:42:45] Dr. Sure, sure. If there are Things that you would expect to see then. Then that can be taken into consideration. So I'm not claiming that no children alone is proof that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist. I'm saying that the documentation I have seen is Joseph, Emma, and Hyrum and others fighting vociferously against polygamy throughout their entire life. Records being altered, a body of records being created much decades later in Utah by the very motivated polygamists who needed to say, Joseph. This is Joseph doing this. Right. And on top of that, there are no children, so. Right. And there are no records.

John Dehlin [03:43:24] It's a data point.

Michelle Stone [03:43:25] Yeah, it is a data point and an important one. It shouldn't be ignored.

John Dehlin [03:43:28] Shouldn't be ignored. But doesn't. It's not. Doesn't prove anything.

Michelle Stone [03:43:31] No, it's not. I'm not here saying Joseph had no children, therefore.

John Dehlin [03:43:35] Yeah, good. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. So it was Emma that turned you to gaining the position. I won't say belief that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy. You don't like. So you said earlier it's really important that you not be viewed as someone you know. In the Book of Abraham discussions. There's this apologist named. Named Carrie Muhlstein. Have you ever heard of him?

Michelle Stone [03:44:04] I have heard of Kerry, but I'm not sure why.

John Dehlin [03:44:06] Okay. No, it's okay. So in a moment of real candor, he once admitted. So I'm going to paraphrase. I'm a Mormon apologist. I start with the position that the Book of Abraham was inspired and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. And so any of the work I do as an apologist then flows from my desire, and I'm using my own words, flows from my desire to buttress the position that I began with, which is that Joseph Smith is a prophet and the Book of Abraham is inspired. So he admits that, which is honorable, but also shows a problem, which in. In rfm has used different quotes, too, I think, from Sherlock Holmes or whatever, that, you know, you don't start with the position and then selectively use the evidence to buttress your position.

John Dehlin [03:44:57] You start with the evidence and then arrive at it. And I'm not saying it's a problem, but when you say you read about Emma formed an idea in your mind about who she was, and then concluded that Joseph wasn't a polygamist.

Michelle Stone [03:45:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:45:14] You could see how someone would go, wait a minute, that sounds like something similar to Kerry Mohlstein, where you just. You decided for yourself who Emma was and what she would or wouldn't allow or do. And so from then on, you're going to selectively look at the record and buttress that opinion from that starting point.

Michelle Stone [03:45:35] I really appreciate this question. I think it's a really good one and an important one. So first of all, what Carrie

John Dehlin [03:45:44] said,

Michelle Stone [03:45:44] like, no offense, but. But I hate that when I homeschool my kids, we would watch the. I think it's Harvard Introduction to philosophy courses that you can watch on YouTube. I highly recommend it for people wanting to teach their kids critical thinking. And every once in a while, a kid would stand up and say, as a Christian, I believe. And I just would want to pull my hair out, because as a Christian is not an argument. It's showing a lack of ability to make a good argument. So that's what I would say to that. So what I had tried to say is that actually the barriers that I had had, that I couldn't get over had already kind of come away.

Michelle Stone [03:46:18] Like, I'd already seen, oh, my gosh, there's a completely different way to interpret Marx. Oh, there are a couple of different ways, which actually Cheryl Bruno agrees with. Right. But I hadn't seen them before then when I dug into the evidence of Fanny Alger and saw, oh, my gosh, there's another story here that is so much better supported by the evidence and makes better sense. And that happened continually with different evidence. And then I started digging in and seeing that every piece of evidence, when you pick it up and look at it, it, like, falls through your fingers. Like, there's very little there when you go to those affidavits and see what they actually are.

Michelle Stone [03:46:51] Right. So it was all of those things had set it up. And it was when I studied Emma that I kind of was like, okay, do you know what I mean? It was not. It was not that Emma turned me or that. That I based my view on Emma. It was kind of like Emma was the final straight straw.

John Dehlin [03:47:08] Got it. Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:47:09] Yeah, yeah.

Guest [03:47:10] Or.

Michelle Stone [03:47:10] Or was a final straw because I still. I still was really, really hesitant and terrified to come out on. To come out as a monogamy affirmer. Right. But. But I just. Just the more I have dug into it, the more I have been like, oh, my gosh, every piece of evidence, this happens to it. So I've. I've become much more confident than I was when I first said it. As I studied more, what.

John Dehlin [03:47:33] What I will say is that that, number one, I will agree with you that the Mormon Church is not credible at all in how it's handled its history in many ways. In some ways it's a world standard for like keeping records and, you know, genealogy and diaries and all these minutes. Like, wow, why did you write that down? You know, on the one hand that on the other hand we've already talked about Brigham Young and Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Feeling Smith and all the ways the church has been sketching with its history for two centuries. You and I are on the same page about that.

Michelle Stone [03:48:06] Right, sorry, I'm uncomfortable saying that. But yeah, it's. That is one point I've made as well is that it's so interesting to me that people like, like people who ex most, if that's what you know. I don't, I don't want to use the wrong term, but that exmos tend to be like, I think I said this before, the Mormon Church lies about everything except polygamy. And then everything they say you can take to the bank. Like, explain that one to me.

John Dehlin [03:48:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we're on the same page there.

Guest [03:48:33] Okay.

Examining Historical Evidence for Joseph Smith's Polygamy

John Dehlin [03:48:34] So I think now is the point where we transition really quickly to what I imagine might just be a 10 minute section, even though I allocated an hour for it.

Guest [03:48:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:48:47] I think that it's important to at least understand that, that while polygamy has an entire context that you need to understand to be able to understand polygamy, I think Joseph Smith and the founding of Mormonism has a broader context to understand.

John Dehlin [03:49:05] Not just because they're historical documents that are problematic related to Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church's truth claims, but also that many feel really touch on Joseph Smith's credibility. So I have a list of like 10 or 15 little things that I'm not expecting to go into detail on. This isn't a gotcha. It's sort of like, are you aware of this thing? And you can just say yes or no, I'm aware of it. And then two, have you thought about it? And if you have, how you've reconciled it and literally it's fine if this is a three minute segment that I meant to be an hour and all you say is, I've never heard of it and I've never thought about it, or yes, I've heard about it, but I haven't really thought about it.

John Dehlin [03:49:45] And I'm not pretending that all of those answers, let's just say in the negative, invalidates everything else we're going to talk about. Okay, but, but I am curious because if you have thought about these things and if you have come up with ways to think about It. I really want to know because you're understanding of polygamy and your knowledge about polygamy is very impressive. So I don't want to leave 5 hours with you without at least giving you a shot to help me understand things, things that caused me to struggle.

Guest [03:50:16] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:50:16] Is that all right?

Michelle Stone [03:50:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:50:17] So I'll do it really quickly.

Michelle Stone [03:50:18] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:50:18] Okay. And so this will be like 15 or 20 quick little things, hopefully. So are you. Are you okay? So the treasure digging thing, the fact that Joseph helped people find buried treasure, allegedly got paid for it, used the stone in the hat, folk magic, occult stuff, never really found any treasure, Was tried, you know, was charged with. With criminal behavior. That. That was all illegal. Would you agree with those things that I just said?

Michelle Stone [03:50:47] So, so I have to. Again, as I have seen what the narrative is on polygamy versus what the documentation says, in my opinion, I'm. I'm willing to withhold judgment to some extent that may make some people crazy. I, of course, have read all about that. But again, I have my hands so full with polygamy. And, and, and that isn't, to me, nearly as pressing of an issue.

John Dehlin [03:51:11] Okay, but do you. Do. Would you. Would. Is it your understanding that that stuff happened or is it possible? Are you holding open a significant space in your mind that that's all hogwash and that none of it happened, or are you like, oh, yeah, that happened.

Michelle Stone [03:51:26] I think it happened. I think that there are arguments we could have about interpretation and about belief systems. Systems. Right. I think that that's a place that presentism may come in a bit where we're like, oh, that's wacko, but we don't know what Joseph's believing. Do you know what I mean? Like, having some wrong ideas that you believe at one point doesn't invalidate, doesn't necessarily invalidate that you could grow in whatever gift you have. I'm. I'm spitballing. This is not something I've studied in depth. But again, it's not something that I find to be like, oh, this is really troubling my testimony. It just hasn't hit me that way. Way like polygamy did.

John Dehlin [03:51:59] But, but. So you're saying as far as you understand, he did do the treasure digging, folk magic stuff, and you agree that it was illegal and that he was charged with criminal behavior?

Michelle Stone [03:52:11] Well, we have the court record, so. Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [03:52:13] Okay.

Michelle Stone [03:52:13] But, but, but I'm, I'm. I'm. Like I said, I know people might go crazy. I'm sorry, I just.

John Dehlin [03:52:17] No, don't Worry about other people, to

Michelle Stone [03:52:19] form firm opinions of things. I haven't.

John Dehlin [03:52:21] I respect that. I respect that. But for you, it's not a problem.

Michelle Stone [03:52:24] Not. Well, I mean, yet. Yes. Yeah. I'm hoping that at some point I can dig into everything, but this is. This is doing all I can do right now.

John Dehlin [03:52:32] Okay. All right. So the. The next thing is what? Do you understand the surroundings of Joseph and Joseph and Emma's elopement, why they eloped, how Isaac Hale felt about Joseph Smith, both his treasure digging and the whole Book of Mormon Enterprises enterprise?

Michelle Stone [03:52:51] Yeah, I mean, I understand somewhat. So is your question like.

John Dehlin [03:52:57] I mean, Isaac Hale did not want Joseph to marry Emma. Isaac Hale saw Joseph as a charlatan. He felt like the treasure digging was fraud and illegal, and he felt like the Book of Mormon was a foolish enterprise. And so instead of this beautiful marriage with all the family surrounding Joseph, Emma basically had to disappear and go get married somewhere else and live apart from Emma's family.

Michelle Stone [03:53:21] Right.

John Dehlin [03:53:21] Does that speak to you about Joseph's character at all?

Michelle Stone [03:53:24] Oh, interesting question. See, I. Again, I sent her Emma. So it actually is kind of a. Interesting question to me. Where I, like Isaac Hill in some ways, was a jerk is my understanding. I don't, you know, and was kind of like disapproving. I don't think he's the only father that's disapproved of his daughter's choice. And sometimes those. Those judgments are correct, sometimes they're not. But I look at Emma's choice and that she never seemed to second guess, and she was a full partner in everything that they went through. So it would be very, in my opinion, patriarchal to prioritize Isaac Hale's bias over Emma's. Emma Smith's choice, or to paint Emma

John Dehlin [03:54:04] as someone that Joseph deluded or absconded with.

Michelle Stone [03:54:07] I mean, yeah, but I just see that as a love match. And I actually love the story that Joseph had to take the right person with him to get the plates and that that was Emma. He thought it was Alvin, but Alvin died and it became Emma. And to me, I really, I just, like, I don't like thinking of God as male. I. I think we need the feminine on every level, everywhere. And I love that God established this church as I see it through a matriarch and a patriarch together united. That's meaningful and important to me.

John Dehlin [03:54:42] Okay. And so Isaac Hale as a witness to Joseph's credibility, you wouldn't put much stock in that?

Michelle Stone [03:54:52] I wouldn't necessarily not put much stock in it, but I would put More stock in Emma's choice.

John Dehlin [03:54:56] Got it. Yeah. Good. Okay. As far as the Book of Mormon goes, you know, are you familiar with the mound builder myth? Is that a term you've heard?

Michelle Stone [03:55:06] Is that the like North American and

John Dehlin [03:55:08] it's geography idea that. No, no, no, no, that, no, it's, it's this well established idea in, let's just say postcolonial America that all these wonderful formations and mounds, Indian burial structures, were so impressive that that dark savage Native Americans could never have created them. So there must have been a white skinned version of Native Americans that would do the culturally civilized stuff. Which means that the, the dark Native Americans must have killed off the white Native Americans.

Michelle Stone [03:55:46] Yeah. So this is.

John Dehlin [03:55:46] And, and that they all have ties to Israel, sort of the view of the Hebrews. But there were probably five or ten.

Michelle Stone [03:55:53] Sure.

John Dehlin [03:55:54] Different books that had that sort of core Lamanite, Nephite narrative that existed as common understanding about trying to explain Native Americans and their origins that predated Joseph Smith. So then when you see them showing up in the Book of Mormon along with like 19th century Protestant theology, the Book of Mormon really starts to look like a 19th century work of Bible fan fiction that I think even people like Terrell Givens and Richard Bushman and, and Patrick Mason and other progressive Mormons are now pretty much admitting that the Book of Mormon and then you add the anachronisms, the horses, the steel, the chariots, the rice, the weeds, all the anachronisms and then all the Christian theology.

John Dehlin [03:56:44] And before Jesus is even born, Lamanites and Nephites are baptizing in the name of Jesus as Christians. You know, Benjamin and Mosiah are giving Protestant sermons like there are so many ways that the Book of Mormon just reads like 19th century fan fiction, Bible fan fiction. Are you aware of all that and do you have thoughts on. Because I know you love the Book of Mormon, but I think objective people looking at it would say looks like fiction. What would you say to that?

Michelle Stone [03:57:14] Sure, I am aware of that. And I've said for a long time that I would never spend time arguing over the historical literacy. Historical. Yeah, what's the word I'm looking for? But yes, the literal history of the Book of Mormon.

Guest [03:57:30] Right.

Michelle Stone [03:57:30] Any more than I would spend time arguing over the literal existence of Adam and Eve.

Guest [03:57:35] Right.

Michelle Stone [03:57:35] I don't. The Book of Mormon isn't useful to me as a history lesson of what happened in America. And, and I, I have a lot of questions about it. I do. Like, I'm really open and I've gone through periods of my life where I've just kind of shut it away and have, haven't like I was like, ah, just leave it, leave it alone. You know. But in general, maybe this, maybe this is an answer. The story of the Good Samaritan is valuable to me, whether it's an allegory or literal. Right. And the story of like, like Uncle Tom's Cabin was a very foundational book when I read it as a young mom, you know, and so I don't need it to be literal.

Michelle Stone [03:58:12] I know that we have the problems of Joseph Smith claiming it was literally literal. And I'm aware of that. I have different ways that I think about that. I can put, you know, to all of these things, I can put my super believing hat on and say all of these other. This is, this is a position I can step into. I'm not saying it's what I believe, but all of these other mound builder myths came because the adversary was trying to confuse. You know what I mean? I know people could go there with it and you could go to. It's a complete fraud on the other end of the spectrum.

Michelle Stone [03:58:41] Right. And I'm just somewhere, somewhere in the middle because I don't have a good explanation for the Book of Mormon. I know people. It's another one, kind of like children, like Joseph not having children. The, the book of, the existence of the Book of Mormon, I haven't seen a good explanation for. And then in addition, it just blesses my life. I. There are beautiful principles and doctrines taught in it that, that have blessed my life. So, so I don't, I don't value it because it's literal historically.

John Dehlin [03:59:06] Okay. And so do you have, have a mind space where you could still be a believing whatever you are, but that the Book of Mormon maybe is not historical? There wasn't really a Moroni or an Alma or a Nephi like that. It could be in your spiritual, religious worldview. The Book of Mormon could be more fable and myth, but inspired fable and myth myth than an actual historical document. You're open to that?

Michelle Stone [03:59:37] Sure, sure.

John Dehlin [03:59:38] You think there's a decent probability there's a. Some probability that that is.

Michelle Stone [03:59:42] I would, if I had to guess, I would say I think that that's what it tends to be. Just like I think that's what Adam and Eve tends to be.

John Dehlin [03:59:49] Oh, wow.

Michelle Stone [03:59:50] But, but, but I don't want to. I mean, I'm gonna hold up. Oh, I can hold openings for anything. But as I read it, if I start trying to think about the literal, you know, and that then, then I lose the point.

Guest [04:00:02] Point.

Michelle Stone [04:00:02] I lose the thread.

John Dehlin [04:00:03] And so, so, but also the evidence points you.

Michelle Stone [04:00:07] Yeah, I don't want to argue, I don't, I don't ever want to be in a position of arguing against strong evidence. It's just, it does not. I, I refuse to be an apologist. I'm willing to be an advocate. I will not be an apologist.

John Dehlin [04:00:19] So for you, the evidence of the Book of Mormon gives you more questions than answers about its historicity, for sure. Okay, that's fine.

Michelle Stone [04:00:25] I'm okay with that.

John Dehlin [04:00:26] Okay, good, good, good.

Michelle Stone [04:00:27] And if people disagree, I'm okay with that too. I don't want people to get mad at me on either side.

John Dehlin [04:00:31] Okay, so then, you know, quickly, I'm sure you can see how people are like, well, the Book of Mormon, if it's not historical, but Joseph claimed an angel.

Michelle Stone [04:00:42] Right.

John Dehlin [04:00:43] Brought in plates and Joseph claimed that those were real characters. That starts for some, gets into fraud territory.

Michelle Stone [04:00:49] Sure.

John Dehlin [04:00:50] Then you add the Book of Abraham, where we now have the papyrus that Joseph used to translate. The word Abraham isn't anywhere on the papyrus, which then becomes possibly two sets of scripture that Joseph produced with the second really looking like potential fraud. What do you do with the Book of Abraham?

Michelle Stone [04:01:12] Oh, the same thing. I, I, these are the conversations I sit with friends and discuss all night. Right. I don't have a settled position on this. Them that I'm comfortable going, oh, this is what it is. And, but, and for me, it doesn't eliminate the value of it. And so I'm, I'm willing again to withhold judgment and go, I don't know exactly the answers on these things, but there are things I love in them.

John Dehlin [04:01:36] Yes. So I get the valuing part.

Guest [04:01:39] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:01:39] Myth and Uncle Tom's Cabin and yes, Jonathan Steinbeck, all the. Yes, right. Bible 2. But there is the credibility problem that if Joseph now is producing two potentially fraudulent or fictional scriptures that he alleges are historical and divine, some would say that starts to pick. And then you add to that the folk magic and the treasure digging and the illegal stuff for some, that starts to pick away at Joseph's credibility as being a prophet of God. How do you, you think about that?

Michelle Stone [04:02:15] Sure, I'm very, very sympathetic to that. I can step into different. This is what I, this is the part I meant. I talk late at night with my husband or my friends about, you know, because I can step into different perspectives. On the one hand, it can be that Joseph was receiving inspired things and believed what he was saying. On the other hand, he could have been telling what is it a benign story for good? It could be. I still, I can't find an explanation for the coming forth of the Book of Mormon without God's involvement somewhere. Like, like I haven't seen anything that makes sense to me.

Michelle Stone [04:02:51] So I don't have, I don't have an explanation that solves any of it for me. So I can't, I can't really answer the question other than to say I just withhold judgment because I know the problems. I'm sympathetic to people who are like, that problem does it for me. It for me. There are other issues that are more important.

John Dehlin [04:03:11] Yeah. Okay, so last question. Maybe this will be the last question about non polygamy stuff. Some people are complaining in the chat that I'm asking about non polygamy related stuff. I'm surprised that everyone can't understand why Joseph Smith's just general credibility is, is at least something to be considered as a contextual element to then look at polygamy. But maybe it's just a rogue comment.

Michelle Stone [04:03:33] Can I, can I maybe just fill in? Because I think what you're doing is try to establish, like, I do want to clarify. I, this is not because I have Joseph on a pedestal or had Joseph on a pedestal and so have to defend that I have. Like, like I actually don't agree with everything that Joseph Smith said or wrote and I don't, you know, like, I'm willing to grapple with the troubling aspects of everything. I think polygamy has its own issue issue that needs to be investigated. I really get frustrated when people say, oh my gosh, even if he didn't do polygamy, still the treasure digging, still the book of Abraham, still the.

Michelle Stone [04:04:04] I'm like, okay, let's adjudicate each of those on their own. Maybe he's guilty of all of those. That doesn't mean he betrayed his wife. That doesn't mean he slept with all the teenage girls. Because I think we can all agree that polygamy is the most malignant, the most, you know, the worst part of what Joseph Smith did. And I think that that deserves to be measured on its own own. Even if he did, even if he was guilty in all the other ways, that doesn't mean he did. He, he originated polygamy.

John Dehlin [04:04:30] Okay, I, I won't, I won't belabor any of these more points, but, you know, one of the really interesting things that shocked me was to find out that one of the three book of Mormon witnesses. David Whitmer later published a. Published a pamphlet where he says, that whole Melchizedek priesthood, you know, there's no David date. People never maybe stop to think that there's a date for the Aaronic priesthood. There's no date for the Peter, James and John bestowing the Melchizedek priesthood on Joseph and Oliver. And then one of the three Book of Mormon witnesses ends up saying, later, Joseph added that later when he was trying to justify. When he was trying to justify his authority. When you. Oh, you look shocked.

Michelle Stone [04:05:14] I haven't presumed that Joseph added it. I think it was added later, but I didn't think it was Joseph that did it. So I would have to study that out. That's. That's a new thought for me. Maybe you're right. I just didn't realize that it was Joseph that added it later. I know it's in Warren County's signature, the. I mean, writing the last entry in that journal. I believe if I'm recalling, and I know that there are issues with it, but. And it doesn't matter, but you may

John Dehlin [04:05:35] know more than me.

Michelle Stone [04:05:35] Well, I could be. I don't know. All.

John Dehlin [04:05:37] I guess all I'm saying is, like, one of the three Book of Mormon witnesses upon which the Book of Mormon stands is saying Joseph that, let's say, not Joseph. That Melchizedek priesthood stuff was added later. It never was part of the early church, and it was added later to justify something. When you combine that with all the ways Joseph Smith changed, added, changed, edited, deleted versions of that 1835 version, the doctrine and Covenants and her Book of Commandments, and the changes he made to the Book of Mormon and to his first vision story to sort of adjust and synchronize with his evolving theology.

John Dehlin [04:06:16] There's a lot of. Some would say, there's a lot of sketchy behavior that you would say that you would sort of accuse Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball and others of doing. Some would say there's a lot of evidence for Joseph really changing documents, changing revelations, changing narratives, changing the Book of Mormon, changing his first vision story to adapt to challenges or questions or problems. And then in some ways, if Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball and Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Ealing Smith were bad actors, changing stuff and doctoring stuff, they came by it honestly, learning from Joseph. Okay, can you see?

Michelle Stone [04:06:55] Absolutely. I'm very sympathetic to these things. I could turn that back around and say, even with those concerns, David Whitmer still believed in the Book of Mormon. Right. And that's, that's another thing to consider.

John Dehlin [04:07:08] Sure.

Guest [04:07:08] Is that.

Michelle Stone [04:07:09] And so we can. Either way. And I, again, I would need to study all of that much more in depth to be able to speak. I don't like to make positions that I haven't studied for myself. I've read the stuff on it. I've done a lot of the study. But I'm realizing, oh, I need to look into that more because I don't know when that was added. I'm not saying that I don't think Brigham Young added that. I just wondered if, if it was Warren or somebody else. I didn't know it was. If it was Joseph.

John Dehlin [04:07:32] Totally fair. I appreciate you taking those questions. Yeah, this is kind of a slightly different angle, but like age of the earth, is it 6,000 years old or billions of years old?

Guest [04:07:43] Are you really asking me these questions?

John Dehlin [04:07:45] I'm just, I just. Because I'm curious.

Michelle Stone [04:07:47] Let me just settle this. I like evidence. I like arguments that are based on evidence. I try to not form opinions on things unless I've looked at the evidence. Evidence. So maybe we can just wrap that whole section up with that statement. If there are things that there are strong evidence for, I will. And I feel inspired to dig into them. Maybe I will. But no, I would not say. The Bible says 6,000 years. Therefore, I, I nev. I would never do that. If, If I got into studying, like geology and was like, oh, they've got some problems here, then maybe I would consider that. But I've not seen anything that would make me. Do you know what I mean? Like, at this point? No, I'm, I, I believe what it looks like there is evidence for.

John Dehlin [04:08:27] So, like, you wouldn't say evolutions of the devil, for example.

Michelle Stone [04:08:31] I would look at the evidence and see what it says. I know that we had church leaders that said the evolution is for the devil. I do have. Maybe I'm exposing myself. I have questions about evolution. I don't think it's quite as locked down as we like macro evolution. I think there are some reasons to have some questions. I haven't studied it enough to form a solid opinion, and I actually don't. I also don't like being like, this is the consensus, therefore it is true. And everyone who, Anyone who disagrees is an idiot or a conspiracy theory.

John Dehlin [04:08:57] Sure. Maybe. Let me ask you a different way. So the scientific evidence as you interpret it today, maybe. Would you agree, points towards billions of years old Earth?

Michelle Stone [04:09:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:09:08] And that maybe the, the problem, the, the idea of Adam and Eve as literally the first humans as being.

Michelle Stone [04:09:16] I think I already said this.

John Dehlin [04:09:17] You did, you did, you did. But, you know, I think for people on my side of the aisle, you may think it's weird that I'm asking you these questions or a global flood, that a global flood probably isn't. There's not enough water to cover the whole Earth.

Michelle Stone [04:09:30] I don't know that I've deeply studied that one. But I, I think.

John Dehlin [04:09:33] Or all the animals sitting on the boat.

Michelle Stone [04:09:35] Yes, I think, I think that we have, I think the Bible and I think scripture is useful to us because of what it teaches about us, because of the mythology. I mean, the, it teaches us, it's designed to teach us about human nature and about connection to God. That's how I interpret scripture, not what it tells us about scientific endeavors.

John Dehlin [04:09:55] Well, you may feel insulted by the questions. Trust me, the people on my side, if you want people to view you more credibly and seriously once they know these things about you, I promise you it's going to help. A lot of people want to take you more seriously because, like there's the Rod Meldrum group. Not to disparage anyone, but if you're believing that the Earth's core is water and ice, not molten lava, and that the earth is 6,000 years old and that, you know, people are going to tend to dismiss other things, you have to say, sure, if you're a science denier. And so for you to say I'm not a science denier, I don't know, I don't mean to be. That's obnoxious.

Michelle Stone [04:10:35] That's good. Yeah. I think we can move on from it, though, because I'm not a science denier.

John Dehlin [04:10:39] Thanks for answering my questions. I, I, I mean, no insult by it.

Michelle Stone [04:10:43] I'm actually, I wasn't, I get. Thank you, thank you for explaining because it is a little bit like, what are you asking me?

John Dehlin [04:10:49] Okay, well, I, I'm very happy to hear those, those answers. Okay, so let's turn to polygamy now. Okay. So the 1830, the first, and I don't know anything, I know very little. The first sort of emergence other than the Book of Mormon stuff that you've highlighted about got some openness to polygamy, like behaviors that I'm aware of related to Joseph smith is that 1831 revelation to Indians. And I'm going to mask this, but the idea that Joseph basically said, hey, you Mormon missionaries going out to the frontiers of Missouri, if you happen to have a little Native American concubine on the side while you're out there there being a missionary.

John Dehlin [04:11:35] I'm okay with that. That's my summary of what I understand to be the 1831 Indian revelation that I think the church often references. When you read the church's defense of polygamy, they often mention the year 1831. And I really believe that that's what the church, the Mormon Church believes is the first real attempt at Joseph to float the idea of polygamy. What do you. Do you have, do you have thoughts on that revelation?

Michelle Stone [04:12:01] I strongly disagree. But first. Well, first let me clarify something because I've seen a lot of comments about, like, the church admits it. How can you deny it? Right. Like, can I just back up and talk about the LDS Church? Because what people I think don't understand is the LDS Church, ever since Brigham Young has had to have they, they believe I disagree with them, but they have believed that they have to have Joseph Smith be a, be a polygamist in order to justify and validate Brigham Young's political polygamy. Right. Like in the Temple lock case, the LDS Church was trying to argue that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.

Michelle Stone [04:12:36] That's been, that's been their stance. And so the, so saying the LDS Church admits it is not a strong argument at all because I disagree with what the LDS Church says. Also, it's the historians that are giving. That are creating the, the topics. Essays that are giving the talking points. Points, the sound bites. Right. And so I. So anyway, I just wanted to clarify that. That saying the Church admits it is not at all a good argument for me. Right. I know that the church admits that I disagree.

John Dehlin [04:13:08] Of course. Of course, of course. Oh, I totally know that when I asked the question.

Michelle Stone [04:13:12] And the church is very motivated to clean that. And so now I didn't, I didn't come prepared to discuss specific doctors because I thought we weren't getting into them.

John Dehlin [04:13:19] No, I just meant a general reaction.

Michelle Stone [04:13:21] Right. So a general, general rule of thumb. And polygamy. This is kind of. This is what I called our response to your episode. What I've gone after others. Sources matter. You can't just say, in 1831, Joseph Smith said, you have to look who made that claim. Where. Where is it written? What are the motivations of that person? How consistent is it? What supporting evidence can we find? Right. You have to dig in and actually critically examine these sources rather than just like, accusations are not fact.

John Dehlin [04:13:48] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [04:13:49] Claims are not facts. Right. You have to adjudicate it critically before just accepting it.

John Dehlin [04:13:55] Did you do it? But did you do an episode on this?

Michelle Stone [04:13:57] I haven't done an episode on that yet, but I've touched on it. I just don't have it right. I know that there was a Phelps letter in 66. That was the 35 claim about the Indians. But if, okay, if you give me some of these topics, I will come very prepared to discuss them.

John Dehlin [04:14:10] And I'm not trying to gush.

Guest [04:14:12] Right.

Michelle Stone [04:14:12] I just. It's really important. I don't want to.

Guest [04:14:14] I to. Don't want.

Michelle Stone [04:14:15] Want to say this is my opinion on it. I want to dig into the documents.

John Dehlin [04:14:20] You haven't done that yet with this?

Michelle Stone [04:14:21] I've done that. Well, I've looked into it, but I haven't done an episode on it. And somehow doing an episode gives me more mastery than just looking for sure.

John Dehlin [04:14:28] For sure. Dan writes the 1831 revelation wasn't about polygamy, but WWE Phelps made it sound like it. That's his answer to my question.

Michelle Stone [04:14:36] Thank you, Dan. Thanks. I wish, I wish I had all these memorized. I just.

John Dehlin [04:14:40] This is me just running stuff by you.

Michelle Stone [04:14:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:14:42] Like it literally, I'm saying I'll, I'll bring up something. Is this something you've dug into? If so, what's your conclusion about it based on your understanding of the evidence?

Michelle Stone [04:14:52] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:14:52] I'm not trying to, you know, okay.

Michelle Stone [04:14:55] Dig into sources or like, we can, we can do this. I just want you to understand it would be more useful to do it with documents.

John Dehlin [04:15:00] Oh, a thousand percent. A thousand percent. Okay. The. The next one's Fanny Alger. And you know, as you know, Oliver Cowdery was co president of the church with Joseph at the time. He's one of, you know, scribe to the Book of Mormon, one of the three witnesses. He's saying Joseph Smith was having an affair with a girl living in his. In his home. What do you. What have you come to conclude about those accusations based on the evidence?

Michelle Stone [04:15:33] So, okay, again, I will tell you, but I. I feel that this is actually not a good way to go about it at all because people can just go, oh my gosh, she's so ridiculous. If I can't show you why, I conclude what I conclude. But a couple of Cliffs Notes I can give you in. I mean, you did.

John Dehlin [04:15:50] I'm sure you've done an episode on Fanny, right?

Michelle Stone [04:15:52] Well, I've done. I've done episodes covering elements of it. I haven't yet done the episodes on each of the wives I need to, but I have. I have looked into Fanny quite deeply and actually will be in Our next, our part two of our response to you will be talking about Fanny so people can look at that. I will say that a lot of the sources we rely on for Fanny are extremely problematic. I am actually shocked that people use William McClellan. It's very surprising to me that historians like unabashedly consider McClellan a good source. And then we have Levi and Mosiah Hancock, very late sources.

Michelle Stone [04:16:25] Right. The Oliver question is a good one. But what you have to realize, the letter that Oliver wrote to the High Council when he was defending himself didn't bring up an affair at all. It didn't bring up adultery. And Oliver never went on to accuse Joseph in those High Council minutes. Joseph. It was just recorded as Joseph explained the girl business. And to me that implies that it was such a non issue. I have my perspective of what it was. It was such a non issue that he just explained it. They were all fine with it. That is evidenced by the fact that several of those High Council members left the church very soon thereafter, including Thomas B.

Michelle Stone [04:17:04] Marsh, who went on to make the. All of the accusations against Joseph Smith and contributed to the mobbings and the, you know, like Marsh was instrumental in that. He made all kinds of accusations. One accusation he did not make was anything having to do with Fanny or infidelity or adultery. And that strike true of several of the others as well. So again, it comes down to documents and sources. I have my explanation of what happened with Joseph and Fanny and I, I, I'm a little hesitant to say it here without the documentation because I don't want people to be like, you know, to, to push back when I can't show what I'm talking about. But I.

John Dehlin [04:17:42] So it sounds like you're not convinced that Oliver.

Michelle Stone [04:17:47] So here's what I think happened. Fine, I'll just say it. But I, But John, I'm really mad at you that you're making me come and talk about these things about documents. But I will do my best.

John Dehlin [04:17:55] I think I understand your point and I think it's valid.

Michelle Stone [04:17:58] Okay, okay.

Guest [04:17:59] Because.

Michelle Stone [04:17:59] Because we weren't going to do sources. But it's okay, I'll do my best. But, but I'm asking people to please just be patient and you know, don't, don't tear me apart because I'm just saying it without providing the sources. Right, because that's what I like to do is show the sources and then talk about interpretation. But okay, I'll tell. Oh, I'm gonna get myself in trouble if I tell this story. I'm afraid. Okay, I'm just gonna tell it anyway and people can do with it what they will. But I was actually. My husband and I were going out of town for the first time in many, many, many years.

Michelle Stone [04:18:29] And I was on an airplane for the first time in many years. When you have that many kids, you don't travel. And I was reading a book about. I was reading Whitney Horning's book about Joseph Smith's revolution, and it got to where she was talking about Fanny Alger. And I didn't like the way that she handled it at that time. I think she's changed her perspective where she said it was a ceiling, you know, and that upset me that I'm like, that doesn't make it okay if Joseph is sealing himself to girls and Emma's mad. I'm not okay with.

Michelle Stone [04:19:01] Makes me mad. Like, I don't. I do not think we can, with a straight face, claim they were having sex. I do not think there's going be to evidence to say that again. McClellan is not a good source. But so I did in. In the airplane, I just prayed. I was like, God, can you help me understand what happened with Fanny? Because I was so troubled by Fanny. I just like, I can't be okay with Joseph if something happened with Fanny, even if it was just a ceiling. I'm not okay with that.

John Dehlin [04:19:25] And also, the ceiling power hadn't been given yet.

Guest [04:19:27] Right.

Michelle Stone [04:19:27] Well, I mean, for me, in. In the.

John Dehlin [04:19:31] Well, I mean, people, it came later.

Michelle Stone [04:19:33] Right, right, right, right. You can't. You can't.

John Dehlin [04:19:35] You didn't have the part of Celia. He didn't have the polygamy yet. If you said he never had it. But like, certainly, yeah, it couldn't have happened in 1835.

Michelle Stone [04:19:44] Right. So I'll just share what happened. But again, I want to clarify. I don't base my opinions on spiritual experiences. I appreciate the inspiration to help me find answers. Yeah, yeah.

Guest [04:19:56] Can I.

Michelle Stone [04:19:57] Can we please understand that?

Guest [04:19:58] So. So I did.

Michelle Stone [04:19:59] I just prayed and I was. I was really upset and kind of desperate, like, because I was doing this podcast, I. And people were yelling at me that Joseph Smith wasn't a polygamist. And I was like, yeah, he was. You know, even if it was just a ceiling. Yeah, he was. And so, so I prayed. And while I was praying, a picture came to my mind from my freshman year of college at BYU that I had no idea I even remembered. And it was. It was. We were working on a show called Lucky Stiff. There were three girl. We were the three dancers. That played the roles and we had the pianist.

Michelle Stone [04:20:31] The pianist was a guy. And so we were having a rehearsal and then after the dance rehearsal, we were over around the piano practicing our vocals and all kind of flirting with the pianist. Right? It's just three girls. We were kind of flirting with this guy. One of the girls was giving him a back rub. We were just. He, you know, we were working on the music, but it was kind of flirty. And all of a sudden he stiffened up and like moved the girl's hands off his shoulders. And we saw him get up and walk over and his wife had walked. Walked in and none of us had even like.

Michelle Stone [04:21:00] I remember being sick to my stomach going, oh, I hadn't even thought about it. I hope they're okay. Do you know what I mean? Like, I felt very much like this had been inappropriate, but nobody had really realized it. And that came right to my mind. And I was like, I didn't even. I've never thought about that since, you know, and so. So it gave me an opening to consider a way. And then when I went and investigated those documents, the possibility that Fanny was flirty and that Joseph was maybe being nice to me fits the documentation better than any other argument I have heard that Emma was like, no, you're out of here.

Michelle Stone [04:21:37] You know, this is not okay. Joseph and Emma worked out. Joseph went to the High Council and was like, okay, this is what happened, you know, and it was a non issue. And so I had the inspiration to give me a way to consider thinking about it as a went to the evidence and the evidence seemed to me to back that story matches the evidence better than other evidence that any other story I had considered.

John Dehlin [04:21:58] So in that case, Oliver Cowdery would have just jumped to conclusions.

Michelle Stone [04:22:01] Yes, yes. Oliver Cowdery misunderstood, which I think I can't speak above my pay grade here. I don't know that he later said he misunderstood, but it seems to me quite clear that he did because he didn't continue to make the accusation.

John Dehlin [04:22:15] And he did die.

Michelle Stone [04:22:17] I guess he joined the church again. And. And there are. Oh, I see. I can't speak about sources that I can't cite to you, but I know I've read about Oliver feeling bad that Joseph didn't reach back out to him and invite him back into the church. Like he kind of always thought the rift would be fixed. Oliver was mad at Joseph for many things. There were many issues. And if you look at the High Council minutes, they were throwing everything at Oliver. They were accusing him, him of everything. I think counterfeiting it, I can't. I can't remember. But it seems to me that it was kind of a.

Michelle Stone [04:22:46] I'm mad at you, so I'm going to accuse you kind of a culture to some extent as well. And I think Oliver misunderstood that, but also wasn't necessarily that sad to misunderstand it with how mad he was at Joseph. Possibly. I'm throwing out possibilities. I'd rather go to the documentation and let people see what they think.

John Dehlin [04:23:04] Yeah. Okay. All right.

Michelle Stone [04:23:08] So do you want me to talk about McClellan really quickly? Why I say he's not a good source?

John Dehlin [04:23:14] Sure.

Michelle Stone [04:23:14] Do you want to?

John Dehlin [04:23:15] I mean, yeah, that. I mean, I. I'll. I'll just note that, like, is common for. I mean, this is a. I'll say. I'll say it this way. This is a trick about doing history. Like, it's hard to know people's motivations, right?

Michelle Stone [04:23:31] It is.

John Dehlin [04:23:32] And so that's a tricky thing that oftentimes historians try and stay away from, and critics of the church sometimes flock, too, is making assumptions about people's motivations. So it cuts both ways. But also, I think one thing I see a lot in your responses is going to the credibility of the people. If there's a source or a witness or a journal entry. Oh, it's common for you to. To talk about whether they're credible, whether the document's credible, which probably is okay. Like, I mean, that's what we do at a court. Law. Court of law. We would question someone's. A witness's credibility, and we would make sure the evidence was credible. So.

Guest [04:24:18] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [04:24:18] But.

John Dehlin [04:24:18] Yes, please tell us about William McCloud.

Michelle Stone [04:24:20] Well, first. First, I will say this, that historic. Good historical practice is you want sources as close to the time and the person as possible, and you should prioritize those sources. So that's one thing that, to me, is goofy. And polygamy. The historians will say that like. Like that Keith Erickson, Fireside, he talked at one point about how we want sources that are close to the evidence and that are. That are close to the person and close to the time period. But then he ignores everything we have that is close to the person and close to the time period and prioritizes everything that comes later.

Michelle Stone [04:24:51] And one extra challenge in polygamy is that we do have people who were motivated to tell different stories. So if I were to bring to you Emma's many, many statements about polygamy, people know about her deathbed claim, which they write off as a deathbed claim, which Is surprising to me when they. They try to prioritize Sylvia Lyons supposed secondhand deathbed claim. Right. But we have a firsthand deathbed claim from Emma as well as seven. Seven published interviews that she gave about polygamy, plus, plus many other things as well.

John Dehlin [04:25:21] And where she denies it. Denies it.

Michelle Stone [04:25:24] She says the first time she ever saw the revelation was in Orson Pratt's the Seer. She. She is very logical, consistent. Right.

Guest [04:25:31] And.

Michelle Stone [04:25:31] And it's. It's easy to see consistency in her, and it is consistent with what we find in Nauvoo. So it's shocking to me that everyone just goes, oh, Emma was lying, and we just write her off. But then all of these really problematic sources that are, I would say, say, more motivated than Emma, at least as motivated we go. And with people who have a long track record of lying for the Lord or saying what needs to be said for the kingdom, whatever it might be, we're like, no, those things are all true. Emma was lying. Joseph III was lying. Joseph Smith was lying. Hyrum was lying.

Michelle Stone [04:26:00] And we come to that, like, from the outset. We make up our mind before we come to the evidence. So when you say that I'm questioning the credibility of sources, I would be like, yes, and so are you. And we should. And I would say the sources that I questioning have less credibility than the sources that you're throwing out from my perspective.

John Dehlin [04:26:16] And so McClellan is not credible because. Too late.

Guest [04:26:19] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [04:26:19] Yeah. No.

Guest [04:26:20] Okay.

Michelle Stone [04:26:20] I could. I. I should probably show the documents if I go into him. So he. So we have published in. Oh, I can't remember if it's the Deseret news, but that McClellan, while Joseph was in prison, he raided Emma's barn and robbed her house. And that he also. While Joseph was in chains in prison, and he asked the jailer if he could beat. If he could beat Joseph. And the jailer said, only if it's a fair fight and Joseph can be back. And then he said he wouldn't be willing to. Joseph wrote a harsh letter that included McClellan. Right. But then after all of that, we claim that McClellan went and visited Emma, and she bore her soul to him and told him things that she didn't tell anybody else, and he gets the names wrong.

Michelle Stone [04:27:00] And then also we have a newspaper where McClellan published that he was what he was going to get from Emma. And he doesn't say anything about this. It comes up later in his letters to Joseph Smith iii. So there are many reasons that I'm just like, why are we giving, first of all, McClellan is secondhand from Emma. Right. And a very troubled and troubling source. And we have other documentation to show that he's not credible. We throw out everything that Emma actually says, but believe emma's voice through McClellan. That bothers me.

John Dehlin [04:27:29] Me.

Michelle Stone [04:27:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:27:31] Okay. Thanks for explaining that.

Guest [04:27:34] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:27:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm just going to say, like, I, I, I know you're probably, I, I really respect that historians focus on source documents, and I know that that's the best place to have these conversations. It's also a real problem with helping educate the masses because there's a lot of people that just are never going to be able to have time or the luxury or the privilege to dig into the primary sources.

John Dehlin [04:28:02] So while I don't expect anybody to form a solid opinion based on your summary of what you gathered from the sources, there's massive value in people hearing a Dan Vogel, or forgive me for saying a Michelle Stone to hear what your, you know, what your summary is.

John Dehlin [04:28:23] Okay, but, but if people are gonna then use this episode to try and hang you, I will condemn that right now and say that's garbage. I'm putting her in this position. Be charitable and engage her with the primary sources. Don't draw any conclusions on, on anything we say today. Anything I say? Anything you say. Believe the source documents. I think you would agree, right?

Michelle Stone [04:28:48] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:28:48] Don't believe Michelle Stone. Phone. Don't believe John De Lynn. Don't believe Dan Vogel. I think Dan would agree with this. Believe the source. Doctor?

Michelle Stone [04:28:55] Yes. Thank you for saying that again. I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [04:28:57] Okay, good. Because I still think it's valuable to hear your conclusions even if we don't have the documents right in front of us.

Michelle Stone [04:29:03] Sure. Sure.

John Dehlin [04:29:04] Okay.

Michelle Stone [04:29:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:29:06] Yeah. Okay. All right. So, So I had this question before we get to John C. Bennett. It, this question came up for me. If somebody said to you, Michelle, like, three of Joseph's relationships, regardless of where you are, on the credibility of the scandals, Michelle, three of Joseph Smith's relationships with you could argue his closest counselors, Oliver Cowdery, John C. Ben it and William Law, ended in rumors of sexual scandal.

Michelle Stone [04:29:47] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:29:48] Is that like, what do you do with that? You know, a lot of people will. And again, I have personal experiences of defamation where, like, I know how I would answer this. If somebody said to me, where there's smoke, there's fire as it relates to my life, not that I claim to be perfect in any way, but like, if somebody says to you, come on, Oliver Cowdery, John C. Bennett. Okay. You don't like John C. Bennett as a source. He certainly is probably the most biggest scoundrel. Even if you hate Joseph Smith, you have to acknowledge that John C. Bennett's worse than Joseph Smith. John C.

John Dehlin [04:30:22] Bennett, Oliver Cowdery. Even if you hate John C. Bennett, you still have to acknowledge Oliver Cowdery, one of the three witnesses inscribed in the Book of Mormon. And then William Law. They all had relationships with Joseph that ended in allegations of sexual scandal. Where there's smoke, there's fire. What would you say to that?

Michelle Stone [04:30:39] First of all, I'm glad that you pointed out that accusations do not equal reality. Right. And that's something we need to take seriously. We've already discussed Oliver Cowdery.

John Dehlin [04:30:47] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [04:30:47] And then William Law is an interesting one. And again, it's getting into the Nava Expositor, the accusations that he actually makes, what evidence he actually has is not. So when I did, I still have have one at least episode to do on the Nava Expositor, if not two. And that's where it'll get to the juicy stuff. I got derailed by that by doing my episodes on other topics. It's just a lot to try to get done. So I'm sorry for anyone that I haven't finished my novel. Expositor episodes. They will be coming. Actually, this is what I should say. So the Journal of Mormon Polygamy is actually doing a full edition on the high council, the August 1843 high council, which leads to the Navajo Expositor.

Michelle Stone [04:31:26] And we will have different perspectives, all published together so people can really dig in and get a broad understanding of that. So I think that's very useful to mention that people will want to pay attention to as soon as that comes out. But there's a scripture that actually people might not think this is interesting, but it is interesting to me.

Michelle Stone [04:31:47] And one thing I was going to say, when I did the Nava Expositor, I realized that Joseph did not choose counselors in the way of the most righteous man. He did it kind of like a presidency. And William Law was somebody who had a lot of property, had a lot of land, kind of had a, maybe a different faction that he could bring in. And so Joseph was kind of making a coalition with his is how it

John Dehlin [04:32:08] appears to me oftentimes his talent and experience and skills and assets, right?

Michelle Stone [04:32:13] Yes, very much.

John Dehlin [04:32:14] I mean, modern day Mormon general authorities aren't always farmers and teachers, school teachers, they're lawyers and successful rich businessmen. Right.

Guest [04:32:23] Because.

John Dehlin [04:32:24] Because they're running a multi billion dollar corporation.

Michelle Stone [04:32:27] Right, right. And That's, That's, I think similar to what it was. Was like, oh, we could help. We can be kind of the useful people to lead the society. Yeah, it's kind of. Well, I don't want to say in a demeaning way, but, yeah, creating. You're trying to build a city and a church. So. Yeah. Get competent people with clout and assets. That would be great.

John Dehlin [04:32:45] I think manager managers are crucial.

Guest [04:32:46] Okay. Okay.

John Dehlin [04:32:47] Yeah. I don't mean that manager is a pejorative at all.

Guest [04:32:49] Okay, good.

Michelle Stone [04:32:50] That's good to know. And so. And also it's interesting, like there are. See, I want people to also realize I'm answering your questions that are pushing me on the best evidence for your side and the hardest for me to answer. What we are neglecting are all of the things I could press you on to say. How do you explain this? How do you explain this? So I just want people to know that we are. This is a really big. Not. This isn't meant as an insult, but it's a really big home court advantage. Right. Where I'm just answering the hard hardest. The hardest sources and the hardest charges, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [04:33:16] You're in the hot seat. You're in the hot seat.

Michelle Stone [04:33:18] And there's another. There are other conversations we could have that would put someone with your perspective. Yeah, Yeah. I don't. I wouldn't.

Guest [04:33:24] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [04:33:24] A historian with your perspective in the hot seat. Right.

John Dehlin [04:33:26] Not a historian.

Guest [04:33:27] So.

Michelle Stone [04:33:27] And so.

John Dehlin [04:33:28] So, so. Dan Vogel in the hot seat.

Michelle Stone [04:33:29] Yes, yes, yes. I, I have asked and asked.

John Dehlin [04:33:32] Are you about to say, I'd love to have Dan on the hot seat?

Michelle Stone [04:33:34] No, not necessarily on the hot seat. I just have. I've really wanted him to come and engage. Makes a lot of comments, but I would love him to come and talk back and forth instead of just doing a response video. That feels very safe. I would love him.

John Dehlin [04:33:46] She's saying let's. She's saying, talk to me. Don't talk about me dead Vogel. So there it is. I will say from. From ex Mormons, totally secular Joseph Smith disrespecting historians. They were really disappointed at Brian Hale's engagement with you.

Michelle Stone [04:34:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:34:03] When. When y' all had your. Your discussion that he did not engage you in a way that even secular, non Joseph Smith believing historians would have loved a true historian to engage you with.

Michelle Stone [04:34:16] Anyway, thank you.

Guest [04:34:17] I appreciate that.

Michelle Stone [04:34:18] And especially because he came under false premises pretenses. He was supposed to come and discuss is polygamy of God and then is polygamy of Joseph Smith, and instead he had a different PowerPoint.

John Dehlin [04:34:27] It's almost like a worthiness interview.

Michelle Stone [04:34:29] I know. Should you.

John Dehlin [04:34:31] Is it. Are you an apostasy?

Michelle Stone [04:34:32] Right.

John Dehlin [04:34:32] Isn't that how it evolved?

Michelle Stone [04:34:34] And you know what really, really frustrates me that I hope we can find our way through is that there is a coalition of people, polygamists or members of fundamentalist groups posing as members of the church, as well as very pro polygamy church members who are actively trying to manipulate ecclesiastical decisions. And what, what really bothers me is I feel like they want to win on unfair terms instead of engaging with the evidence. They just want to see me excommunicated so they can say, see, we were right all along. And I hope that. I hope that. I hope that that won't happen. But even if it were to, I hope that people could see through it and see that that is not a winning argument.

Michelle Stone [04:35:18] Yeah, right. I mean, I know that that might be easier for people in your community, but I hope that people in my community could see that as well. So. So really quickly, I like this scripture and people can do with it what they will. But in doctrine and covenants, 1037, Joseph is told that he cannot always judge the righteous, as you cannot always tell the wicked from the righteous. So he's told that in, in that verse. And I think that that's actually interesting that he. Joseph Smith. And I.

Michelle Stone [04:35:45] I'm sympathetic to this because I tend to do the same thing. I've learned that I am really sincere and I tend to project my sincerity onto other people, and that sometimes gets me in trouble.

John Dehlin [04:35:55] Me too.

Guest [04:35:56] Okay. And.

Michelle Stone [04:35:56] And I, I believe that that's what Joseph Smith did. Right. But some of the things we can look at is the fact that Joseph actually sued in a court of law. Francis Higby for. Oh, I think it was Francis for the allegations that he was making of infidelity and polygamy. And if you're going to sue someone, that opens you up to discover it's very unlikely for someone who is guilty to sue. And if you go and look at the actual claims that Law made, he didn't have much evidence at all about, about Joseph's like, law got mad. And I think it was mainly over financial things.

Michelle Stone [04:36:26] If you look at the evidence. And then again, what is the thing to accuse Joseph Smith of after Bennett's letters have come out, after this whole, like, oh, that's a. Let's. Let's build on this polygamy narrative, which, if you read the Expositor, it seems to me is what he's doing. And so. And then we can look to Bennett. And I do think that Bennett was a bit of a scoundrel, to say the least. And I. Anyway, we could talk about Bennett another day because that's a bit of a discussion.

John Dehlin [04:36:49] But you're saying that even a prophet of God cannot be the best judge of people and can be fooled by bad people.

Guest [04:36:56] Sure.

Michelle Stone [04:36:57] Why would we think otherwise? Right. And I will just say about Bennett, the question that I've kind of used as shorthand recently is I would like it if someone could show me evidence to show that Bennett is Bennett's accusations or the. Oh, what's the Buckeye's lament? Or any of those other accusations are more likely to be insider, literal information, legitimate information, rather than rumors that are even either being spread or created. And I think that's important to consider. Right. Because we know that Bennett was, you know, apt to spread rumors and just using the first initials, not naming any actual women. And, you know, it's just like I think when. Hold it in the balance of all of the other evidence, it really pales in comparison. It's not nearly as solid. Solid of evidence as the evidence that I look to.

John Dehlin [04:37:43] That's fair. Do you. Do you have a sense for why, you know, the 1835 DNC has Section 101 denouncing polygamy, but it says something about giving rise to the rumors that there's polygamy going on.

Michelle Stone [04:37:57] This church has been accused.

John Dehlin [04:37:58] Do you know why there were rumors the polygamy is going on in the church in 1835? I.

Michelle Stone [04:38:04] Well, I would need to dig into this deeper, but this is my strong understanding at this point. I don't think that was an uncommon accusation there were any church. Yeah, well, these kind of gather. You know, this was right after the. The rest. What was it called? The. Sorry, my. My head is starting to get.

John Dehlin [04:38:19] There were other polygamists.

Michelle Stone [04:38:20] Yeah. Like, we had just had the Cochranites and we had the. We had other groups that were playing the Great Awakening. The Great Awakening. Awakening, yes. And then we had these different groups, the Anitas, the Shakers that, you know, and they're there. And there were also groups emerging in England. It seems that this was kind of

John Dehlin [04:38:35] a. Polygamy is breaking out lots of places.

Michelle Stone [04:38:37] Polygamy is breaking out. If you want to accuse a new church that you don't like, that is not an uncommon accusation. You know, like, just like people accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist or a flat earther because they assume that I must Be. If. If I make these accusations. So if they're a new branch and they bug us and we don't like them, then we'll accuse them of that. That I. I see more evidence for that, definitely, than evidence that there was any polygamy going on.

John Dehlin [04:39:01] As far as the fanny stuff.

Michelle Stone [04:39:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:39:03] Contributing to that. Well, who?

Michelle Stone [04:39:04] You would have to show me who got information about the fanny stuff and started making those accusations in 1835. Right. Like we. We would. It's easy to just. It's easy for us to afterwards, with our bias in mind, lump things together. But. But that's not necessarily a great way to find what actually happened.

John Dehlin [04:39:19] Okay. Okay. So jumping back to John C. Bennett, I'm just curious about your theory. So clearly you would agree that John C. Bennett was engaging in sexual predation, spiritual wifery.

John C. Bennett and the Origins of Nauvoo Polygamy

Michelle Stone [04:39:32] I think that's pretty well found, well validated in the documents.

John Dehlin [04:39:37] Do you think, like Brigham Young and. And Heber C. Were engaging that early during the John C. Do you think that it. It was bigger than just John C. Bennett?

Guest [04:39:46] It.

John Dehlin [04:39:47] In that sort of, what, 1841, 1842 time frame? Do you think it was. It was more than just John C. Bennett, or was it just. Was he the author? Was he the atom.

Guest [04:39:58] No.

John Dehlin [04:39:58] Of spiritual wifery in the Mormon movement?

Michelle Stone [04:40:02] Not in my opinion at all.

John Dehlin [04:40:04] What would be your opinion be of who was the originator?

Michelle Stone [04:40:06] Well, I don't know that it's an originator. John C. Bennett came to Nauvoo in order to predate women. Right. In order to be a predator. Well, he had a wife. And not narcissist. I mean, psychopaths, whatever we want to call him, need to flee once they burn all the bridges and go get a new start. This was a great place for him to come and pose and make a great start. When the claims came that he had a wife that he had left, Joseph launched an investigation. Right. So he wasn't a good guy from the beginning. And he came with, I don't know. I don't know what.

Michelle Stone [04:40:36] Anyway, like, I think it would be a mistake to say that everything grew out of John C. Bennett started it. We do have evidence, strong evidence actually, of things happening in England in 41, 42, when the apostles were there. There's actually some very strong evidence. I have a friend who's doing good work on this right now that's going to be presenting at the Journal of Mormon Polygamy Conference that we can show. Brigham Young, multiple times throughout his life, claimed that he had the revelation in England before Joseph said anything about it. He knew it for himself in England before coming home in cleaning. That Joseph told him in 1842.

Michelle Stone [04:41:10] We have also letters and journals and like, we have evidence that we. William Clayton's England journals show all kinds of. I don't know what you would call it, spiritual falter. All spiritual adultery happening in England before they came and claimed that Joseph taught it to them. So I was actually talking to a friend about this the other day, because I don't have it nailed down at this point exactly the timeline and where it came from and you know, but what we like. I was kind of like, it is interesting to see these overlaps, but also, I don't think they were all in the same group. I think it was just kind of a thing that was happening with different people.

John Dehlin [04:41:44] So, like, in your theory of what may have happened, it seems like as I've.

Michelle Stone [04:41:48] As I said. Sorry, I just wanted to point it. As I said, polygamy was. Was growing in England as well, independently. So while the apostles were there. Like, it didn't have to have a scene. It's kind of like someone doesn't have to teach a man to commit adult. Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [04:42:01] But to claim it's of God is a different thing.

Michelle Stone [04:42:04] Yeah. And we do do see that starting. I thought it was so interesting when I saw in the back of Brigham Young's England Journal, written upside down, it says, questions to ask Joseph. Question to ask Joseph. It talks about children who die, and it says, was David a man after God's own heart? That was interesting to me. I don't know if I'm interpreting that correctly, but it sure seems like it could be interpreted as Brigham trying to make his claim claim. Planning to make his claim to Joseph to convert Joseph.

John Dehlin [04:42:30] Okay. Okay. So, you know, in what I've. What I've listened to of. Of your YouTube channel, it seems like Brigham Young and Heber C. Are kind of the OG Bad guys. In your mind, is that fair to say?

Michelle Stone [04:42:45] Well, the Godfathers, because I did an episode called the Godfathers of Mormon Polygamy. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:42:49] And who are the Godfathers of Mormon?

Michelle Stone [04:42:51] Well, I think Brigham Young, he persisted. Kimberly. I think Willard Richards was right in there. I think. I think William Clayton was like the ultimate wannabe. He really wanted to be included, but no one really liked him, but he was involved.

John Dehlin [04:43:02] Okay. So in your. And do you have a sense. So they're what, 1840, 1841, 1842. They're starting these 1842, 1843, for sure.

Michelle Stone [04:43:11] And there were others, like, I Haven't fit. I think it's Turley in. He was an early polygamist, and I. There's more work being done that is coming out.

John Dehlin [04:43:18] But in your view, do they're the ones that start the polygamy shenanigans and just Joseph doesn't know about it?

Michelle Stone [04:43:25] Yeah, I don't want to. I don't want to overstate and say it was just them or it was. But. But we do have Brigham and Heber claiming to different people that Joseph had a revelation even before 1843. Right. Like. Like Brigham claimed to Augusta Cobb. Brigham claimed. They both claimed to Martha Brotherton. Like that. I have. I've tracked down several sources, sources of people claiming there was a revelation from Joseph. Right. So I do think that they were highly involved. And I don't know. I don't know that they were the original. I. I can't say that yet, but they were the ones who emerged as the leaders afterwards, so it's the easiest to track theirs earlier.

John Dehlin [04:44:01] So for you, Brigham and Heber claiming that there was a revelation from Joseph about polygamy is. Isn't a suggestion that they. That it started with Joseph and that Joseph gave some sort of permission. It's that they were making stuff up and trying to pin their sin and their evil on Joseph as a. As a justification or as permission?

Michelle Stone [04:44:29] Yes. I don't think they had enough clout to have their own revelation that they would carry out.

Guest [04:44:36] So.

Michelle Stone [04:44:36] So they. This was the path they wanted to pursue, and blaming it on Joseph or saying Joseph did it validated it for the people that they wanted to convince in my. In my model.

John Dehlin [04:44:47] Okay. Okay. So. But you see, you see, Brigham and he is kind of the ringleaders.

Michelle Stone [04:44:54] Yeah. Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Again, I don't want to speak past what I could. You know, I don't want to right now.

John Dehlin [04:44:59] That's your theory.

Michelle Stone [04:45:00] Yeah.

Guest [04:45:00] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [04:45:00] Well, and I would want to get in and see. I haven't done enough research to see who else might have been involved early, but from what I have seen so far, I would say that Brigham and Heber and I. And I'd put Willard Richards in there, too, because he became Joseph's scribe and, you know, that becomes important.

John Dehlin [04:45:16] And then John C. Bennett.

Michelle Stone [04:45:17] Well, John C. Bennett's journals are. Yeah. Like, they're a big problem.

John Dehlin [04:45:21] I mean, also an OG if he's in 1842.

Michelle Stone [04:45:24] Oh, yeah. He was for sure. Like, if you read his England journals, it is un question.

Guest [04:45:28] We have.

Michelle Stone [04:45:28] We have. So my friend Whitney found a. A journal of Heber C. Kimballs that there's a ton of foot washing and hair combing and spending nights together. And you know, with women there are lots of shenanigans looking things. And there's one page that is just fascinating that it says washed our feet and went to bed. And the. And went to bed is scratched out. Right. That's just. Just one example of things we can find in the England. In the England materials that I think should be that I think have not been addressed by the standard narrative and

John Dehlin [04:46:04] that all these og. Polygamous shenanigans were happening and Joseph wasn't aware.

Michelle Stone [04:46:09] I think. Well, we have evidence, we have strong evidence that Hyrum was trying to root it out. They were aware it was happening. They were trying to root it out.

Guest [04:46:17] They.

Michelle Stone [04:46:17] They knew that this was a pretty problem. I don't think they automatically knew everyone who was involved.

John Dehlin [04:46:23] So. Yeah, because if. If Brigham and Heber maintained Joseph's support to the end, that would mean that either Joseph looked leniently on their shenanigans or he didn't know about their shenanigans.

Michelle Stone [04:46:38] Yeah, I don't think it's as unlikely as people try to claim that he didn't know. This was not a. I mean, if you think about how much time Joseph. Joseph spent in hiding, how busy he was, people always say he didn't have time to sleep with his wives, he was too busy. And yet we think he had time to know everything that was going on in other people's private lives. There's not, there's not evidence that Brigham Young was at all close to Joseph Smith. In 1842, when Joseph has that meeting on the island when he's in hiding and he has people there that he speaks so highly of, Brigham's not there.

Michelle Stone [04:47:07] You can't connect Brigham closely to Joseph Smith. We do have a source and it's William Smith and he's got complicated. So, you know, but it's a source to consider at least where William, at a breakfast at the end of Joseph's life told them that, or I don't know if William told them or if he heard Joseph say, I would need to read it again to refresh my memory, but that. That Brigham and Heber are involved in polygamy. And Joseph said, ah, as soon as I get done dealing with these problems, I'll take care of that. And I'm going to have problems with Brigham is what that source source claims.

Michelle Stone [04:47:39] And so. And then we have Hiram writing something. We have a letter from. Oh my gosh. See this is why I need to look over my sources, so I can be more fresh. Also, I'm six. I'm a little fuzzy brain, so forgive me if I can't remember the details as well, but we have a letter from.

Michelle Stone [04:47:55] I want to say it's Willard Richards to Brigham Young, but it might be William Clayton to Brigham Young or someone else saying that Hiram is trying to set a trap to catch the men of the secret priesthood. What should we do? Right. And there are a lot of sources like this that, if they are included in the histories, are not really taken seriously enough, in my opinion. So I think we have strong evidence to show that Joseph and Hyrum were trying desperately to root it out.

John Dehlin [04:48:20] Yeah, I. You've mentioned this in terms of the. When John C. Bennett writes his Tell all, he lists initials of alleged wives of Joseph Smith that correspond to names that now the church claims are women who are legitimately sealed to Joseph Smith. So some people say that's. That. That successfully implies Joseph. And I heard you respond once saying something about if magicians can make it look like a woman's cut in half.

Michelle Stone [04:48:59] Yeah, yeah, I. I get an answer differently, but go ahead.

John Dehlin [04:49:02] No, no, no, no. To do your answer now.

Michelle Stone [04:49:04] Yeah, I shouldn't have done. I did that episode responding to rfm, and I tried to fit too many things in, and I hadn't done as much research as I've done now. So people should know about my podcast. It's. It's. As I've been going, I study something deeply and then put it out. So I can't necessarily. If anyone wants to point out something I've said and say I disagree with you, then I would love to, like, go, oh, that's a really good point. Or I disagree with you because of this. I don't want people to pick. Cherry pick something and say, she's totally fair. So what I will say is we actually have evidence that the historians, the polygamist historians, had John C. Bennett as a source. They include the Happiness Letter. The only source we have for that is John C. Bennett, that he published it. Right. So if they are.

John Dehlin [04:49:44] I don't know if that's true, but I'll take your word for it.

Michelle Stone [04:49:47] Okay. Okay, well. And it says William Richard Richards instead of Willard Richards wrote it, and it comes from John C. Bennett. And so we. So I don't. And then also, we know, like, I just had an exchange with Dan Vogel either last night or this morning talking about Benjamin F. Johnson, and Dan even said that Benjamin was. I mean, that we know he was using the journals and histories to create his affidavit and to create his narrative. I was like, exactly, exactly. Right.

Guest [04:50:11] So.

Michelle Stone [04:50:11] So the fact that they like it really is concerning. But they really needed Joseph Smith to be a polygamist. So even if the accusations came from an enemy who. How would John C. Bennett have insider information if he was a polygamy insider, as Brian Hales is want to call them, why wouldn't Joseph was. We have all of these claims that Joseph was like forcing men to take extra wives and pushing them into polygamy. So if John C. Bennett was this polygamy insider, why wouldn't he have been told to take other wives? Right. And if he wasn't a polygamy insider, if that even, even existed, why would he have this information that nobody else had?

Michelle Stone [04:50:45] And why would we put so much credibility into him? I think it's much more likely, and I think we can show that the Utah polygamists were using pre prior sources to create their narratives and their affidavits. Some people might disagree with that, but I don't. I, I think it'd be hard to say that absolutely is not the case.

John Dehlin [04:51:03] So, so for you, the fact that John said C. Bennett lists initials of wives that he believes Joseph Smith was having, was marrying, that now the, the LDS church lists with corresponding initials were in fact, according to the LDS Church, Joseph's plural wives.

Michelle Stone [04:51:25] I find that deeply, deeply sad and troubling. I think we're still following the Brigham Young narrative, and I don't want to call it just the Brigham Young narrative, the polygamy narrative. That was Joseph F. Smith even more, you know, and I think that it deserves to be reinvestigated people, because some

John Dehlin [04:51:41] of these women are the ones that later their names are associated with the

Michelle Stone [04:51:44] affidavit, but there are many that are not. Louisa Beaman never did an affidavit. She's a, she's lb. Agnes Smith never did an affidavit. And even Ina denied it. Right. And, and we, and what am I trying to say? Oh, she's as. Also we would need to say why is Bennett using initials instead of names

John Dehlin [04:52:05] he's using to protect the confidentiality.

Michelle Stone [04:52:08] Right. But he's not into that. Right. There are other names that he uses. So it's, it's, it's. I mean, it is something that has to be argued back and forth. But I think that there are, again, if you look just at what we're doing right now, where I'm just arguing against John Bennett, people Might go, you're ridiculous. But what I would want to do do is bring the rest of the body of evidence to the conversation and say what is more likely to be a credible source. I think that it is more likely that John C. Bennett was spreading and. Or creating rumors and accusations against Joseph.

John Dehlin [04:52:40] Okay.

Michelle Stone [04:52:41] That were then later utilized by the church.

John Dehlin [04:52:44] Okay.

Michelle Stone [04:52:45] Despite the women never having a voice in that.

John Dehlin [04:52:47] Okay. And to the question why Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball weren't excommunicated, you would say at the. At the same time as John C. Be done it. You would say it's because Joseph didn't know.

Michelle Stone [04:52:58] I think it was trying. Yeah. I think he was trying to keep if. I mean, I don't think that's unreasonable. I don't think people, like people can keep secrets from you. You could say the same thing about a president of a company. How could you have your vice president embezzling and you don't know? Yeah, right. Like, people can keep secrets and it's not. It's not. Yeah. It's not that surprising.

John Dehlin [04:53:18] Okay. Okay. I'm gonna. If it's okay, I'm going to ask your forgiveness ahead of time. For one thing, I kind of really want to talk about the Navu Expositor as really the only thing I'm going to talk about in depth. Not to try and, like, put you on the spot. I'm going to relate to you my superficial understanding. Just spending a few days trying to understand the details.

John Dehlin [04:53:43] And I think it would. If anything, I think it's going to invite our viewers and listeners to want to investigate the sources because I think it's a fascinating discussion. And to me, I think. And I have to give credit to rfm, I watched his. You know, I did an episode with him about the Nauvoo Expositor, and I went back and listened to his episode where he responds to you called no man, that's not History where he talks about it. But I think of all.

John Dehlin [04:54:13] Of all the ways to talk about whether or not Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, I think think if there was a silver bullet, I think most of the people that I talk to would say it's. It's the Nava Expositor. So can I share with you how I read the doc, the source documents that I've reviewed, and then just have you kind of respond to it?

Michelle Stone [04:54:34] Yeah. Do you have like an Advil or a Tylenol in the mean?

John Dehlin [04:54:37] Yes, yes, yes, yes. So absolutely. Get some water. There is Advil over there near. Near the kitchen. Let me read out some super chats really quick. Get some water. It's okay. Get some water. Go get some snacks, get an Advil. Take a nap. I will read a few of the super chats because you've been a real sport. Oh my gosh, we're five hours in. Oh, I didn't realize the time had gone that fast.

John Dehlin [04:55:03] Okay, well, maybe we'll end. I don't want to end on the Navu Expositor, but I do want to cover it. And then I want to end on. On some personal things, just about how you're feeling and, and about church discipline and that sort of thing. And we'll just say we'll do it another time. But let me just read a few super chats while you're taking an Advil. I feel bad.

John Dehlin [04:55:25] Thanks to Boyd, Boyd K for his super chat. Let me just read a couple more. Cheryl Bruno. Hey Cheryl. She says, john, I really appreciate you clarifying, identifying points that are hazy. This is a lot of information in a short period of time. Good job. Thanks, Cheryl. Cheryl and I go way back. We go back, I want to say to like 2005, 2006.

John Dehlin [04:55:50] So it's really fun to reconnect with you, Cheryl. And I know that these are tricky kind of things to navigate, but it's fun to re engage with you, Cheryl. I hope to re engage with you more. Rivercrest Lodging says, I hope she finds peace face so much trauma on so many levels. It's hard for me to follow her thinking, but it's easy for me to feel her sincere pain and I would say her sincerity and her command of the knowledge of the data. So anyway, thanks for that super chat. Donnie Lee Gringo says, how does she decide which apostles, prophets, seers are lying and which ones are telling the truth on any topic?

John Dehlin [04:56:27] I don't expect you to answer that, but I'm just going to read it out and you can address that later if you want. I want to get through these. Riley Hyatt writes, what's her interpretation of the Happiness letter? I think you answered that. I think you think it's tainted by John C. Bennett being associated with it. Is that right?

Michelle Stone [04:56:44] Yes. I can't say for sure if it comes from Willard Richards or just John C. Bennett, but it comes through many hands before we should attribute it to Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [04:56:53] Okay. Another B asks, what's the harm in believing Joseph Smith Smith practices polygamy. I think she's basically saying, what's wrong with non monogamy?

Michelle Stone [04:57:03] What's wrong with believing that Joseph Smith practice polygamy?

John Dehlin [04:57:06] What's wrong with non monogamy, polygamy, polyandry? Oh, she's asking like, is there anything inherently immoral?

Michelle Stone [04:57:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:57:12] About. And we can get to that.

Michelle Stone [04:57:14] Polygamy is very, very abusive to women. It dehumanizes women. It's, it's the equivalent in, in my book, it's the equivalent of a form of slavery. It's just gender based based instead of race based. It does the same thing. It turns humans into property for the benefit of others that want to control them for their own good. And I think that it should be decried if people want to come up with their own systems of marriage. I, you know, I, I'm, I'm quite traditional in my beliefs, but, but polygamy, Mormon polygyny is different than even just it. Than other systems.

John Dehlin [04:57:54] Yeah, I'm not a fan of polygamy either. And then Shkoye786 says, thank you so much for doing this. Love you guys. Okay.

Michelle Stone [04:58:04] Oh, that was nice.

John Dehlin [04:58:06] All right, well, yes, thank you for that super chat as well. So, yeah, is it okay if we do just like a little more?

Michelle Stone [04:58:15] We'll try, yep.

John Dehlin [04:58:16] Okay. You're such a great sport. I, I thought we were, were three to four hours, not five.

Michelle Stone [04:58:21] So I wish I, I wish I hadn't gotten sick yesterday. So I'm doing my best.

John Dehlin [04:58:26] All right, well, we'll try.

Michelle Stone [04:58:28] Yep.

The Nauvoo Expositor and Affidavits Against Joseph Smith

John Dehlin [04:58:30] I want to talk to you about Navu Expositor, and then I just want to ask you some more personal questions just about how you're doing about possible church discipline, about that sort of thing. So I'll, I'll just. So I'll just share with you what I learned, if that's okay. So, so I start, I started by going to the Nava Expositor and I hear the affidavits. The affidavits. There's three affidavits. So go ahead and look at the affidavits. And I read them and it's William Law, his wife. And then the third affidavit is Austin Kels, which is a name I would have never even known, believe it or not, even though I've read it before, I forgot it.

John Dehlin [04:59:10] So I'm like, huh, Austin Kels. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. And then, and then I read those three affidavits and I listen to RFM's episode, which basically says, there you have it in a printed newspaper. The main tenets of Doctrine and covenants, Section 132, including many of the elements that I think you would say were added by Brigham Young later The latter parts of DNC 132.

Guest [04:59:38] Now, it's.

Michelle Stone [04:59:39] It's the first verse, too.

John Dehlin [04:59:40] No, no. The first and the last. But I'm just saying.

Michelle Stone [04:59:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:59:44] You could argue that most of the main substantive elements to the Entire D&C132 can be found written in the Nauvoo Expositor between these three affidavits in print before Joseph Smith dies. Before you could sort of allege that Brigham Young came later and added a bunch of stuff. Stuff like. I think it's reasonable to argue that the meat of DNC 132 can be found in these three affidavits in print in the Nauvoo Expositor before Joseph Smith dies. Okay, that's. That's what I concluded. Now, RFM led me to that. But then I went and read the source documents, and I read through each of the three statements, and I'm like, yeah, the spirit. The comprehensive spirit of DNC 132 to me is reflected in those three affidavits in print in what, April of 1844. June of 1844. Okay, you. I'm seeing you kind of look up a little bit. Are you. So far. Are you.

Michelle Stone [05:00:43] I understand the argument. This is the strongest argument on your side.

John Dehlin [05:00:46] Okay. Okay.

Michelle Stone [05:00:47] I agree. It doesn't. It's. I want to clarify. It's not evidence that Joseph had sex with women or that he practiced.

John Dehlin [05:00:52] But, no, I'm not claiming that it

Michelle Stone [05:00:54] is evidence that Joseph Smith brought forth a revelation on polygamy. So I would agree with that. That it's the strongest claim for your

John Dehlin [05:01:00] side, that it wasn't necessarily Brigham pulling out a document out of his desk and trying to push DNC132 back. It sort of seems to suggest that the principles of DNC132 were in the air and people claiming that Joseph Smith revealed those principles from DNC132 to them as contemporary sources written in principles print without Brigham Young's likely influence.

Michelle Stone [05:01:26] Okay, so let me get into a couple of things. So, first of all, the first big problem is that there are very important elements of DNC132 that are not found anywhere in the Nauvoo Expositor. Anything about eternal marriage, which is unavoidably, inescapably monogamous. Right. That's just one example that. That we have a lot of.

John Dehlin [05:01:45] That you can have eternal marriage. That's also polygamous, right?

Michelle Stone [05:01:48] No, not in 132. In 132, it says if a man and a wife Go through this process together.

John Dehlin [05:01:55] This is the thing you and Greg talked about on the quick episode.

Michelle Stone [05:01:58] Where did we.

John Dehlin [05:01:59] He was saying.

Michelle Stone [05:02:00] He kept saying, oh, that was so.

John Dehlin [05:02:02] I know. That was.

Michelle Stone [05:02:03] I'm like, okay, then go have affairs, because if you're not sleeping with all of the women at the same time,

John Dehlin [05:02:07] all polygamous marriages are.

Michelle Stone [05:02:09] Are.

John Dehlin [05:02:10] It's one man coveting with one wife at a time. Anyway, that was. Go listen to that. That was.

Michelle Stone [05:02:15] I hope we can all agree. Like this. This is why, in some ways, engaging with some Mormon men is so frustrating, because they tie themselves into the stupidest arguments in order to defend polygamy itself.

John Dehlin [05:02:26] Right, so your view is that eternal marriage in D&C132 only was monogamous in its.

Michelle Stone [05:02:32] Yeah, we could.

John Dehlin [05:02:33] That's your reading of it?

Michelle Stone [05:02:34] Well, I mean, yeah. If we look at those verses and I. So what I will say is this. We have strong evidence that Joseph Smith received a revelation on eternal marriage that was monogamous, and he taught it publicly on June 6th. Okay, let me get the dates right. Sorry, my head is starting to get fuzzy.

John Dehlin [05:02:54] No, I've got them here. June 7, 1844, to the Nauvoo Council.

Michelle Stone [05:02:57] No, July 12, 1843, is when. I don't know what to make of this.

John Dehlin [05:03:03] Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Michelle Stone [05:03:03] July 14, 1843, or July 12, 1843, is when Clayton writes that Joseph wrote the revelation. But what's interesting is I don't know what to make of Willard Richards, Joseph Smith's journal, but he records that there was a revelation on that day, but doesn't say that it was about polygamy. Doesn't say more. And then we have Joseph smith teaching publicly July 16, 1843, four days later, speaking extensively about eternal marriage. Nothing about polygamy and saying the temple needs to be done before we can teach more. But it is very much an eternal marriage sermon. Four days after, like, so we would be claiming that he had a polygamy revelation and then four days later taught all day long and didn't say a single thing.

Guest [05:03:46] So what?

John Dehlin [05:03:47] I wouldn't want to be admitting polygamy. Well, that's a public sermon.

Michelle Stone [05:03:50] Right, right. But again, be careful to not just bring the bias, to ignore the evidence that. That, you know, because you can have this idea that, oh, he received this revelation and Hyrum's going to go read it to the High Council with no problem. Right. And William Clayton is going to keep. Record it in his journal, but it's not anywhere else. It has to be kept. Super Secret, except for these big times that we expose it. And then later on when we have all of these claims and people saying, hyrum read it to me, Hyrum showed it to me.

Guest [05:04:14] Or.

Michelle Stone [05:04:14] Right. Like, it becomes very murky. So I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to go into it very much. I'm really running out of steam. But Joseph Smith did, I believe, have a revelation on eternal marriage, which he taught publicly on July 16, 1843. We have multiple records of it. And then if you go forward and read the city council minutes regarding the Nauvoo Expositor on June 8 and June 10, 10th, 1844, responding to the Nauvoo Expositor, they, like people, again, just throw out everything that Joseph and Hyrum says because they already come to it with the presumption that these other guys are telling, you know, that we have to believe everyone except for them.

Michelle Stone [05:04:53] But they say they turned the truth of God into a lie and they disavowed all of it. And so I would like to. Again, I'm not loving having this conversation right now. Now, while I'm. We're not able to get into the documents when I'm not feeling great. But what I want to say is we have strong evidence. Hyrum again taught eternal marriage on. On April 8, 1844, and. And completely condemned and forbid polygamy. Right. And so we have this strong line of them teaching eternal marriage, and we have a portion of that in 132. And then we have these other revelations that they claimed were going around Nauvoo on polygamy.

Michelle Stone [05:05:32] And I don't, so I don't. I don't know what might have been going around, but I believe that 132 is an amalgamation of true and false sources, and that is borne out by William Law himself saying that the document he saw that he claimed was a revelation was much shorter. Where did he say in his interview with Dr. Weil?

John Dehlin [05:05:50] So Wilhelm Weil liked that interview. Do you. Isn't that a problematic interview? Interview from your perspective?

Michelle Stone [05:05:56] I don't think. Well, you can't just say us an entire source is problematic. You can't just say an entire.

John Dehlin [05:06:02] Or if it's really late or if the person is antagonistic to the church. Can't you say it's a bad source? Well, William Law credibly, but I mean, don't William Law.

Michelle Stone [05:06:12] William Law. Why would William Law be motivated to say that 132 was something different than what he saw? Dr. Weil had, like he corrected Dr. Weil and several of the points that he makes in his book and some of them. And then he takes a lot of the information from Dr. Weil and they write some letters back and forth and then have some interviews. And he says that the document he saw was much shorter. Then we have James Whitehead saying that he saw a document on eternal marriage and it was much shorter. And then we have the RLDS missionaries that came out have several accounts of who they were told, worked on creating the revelation, amalgamating it, W.W.

Michelle Stone [05:06:47] phelps and William Clayton and others. And so. So there are a lot of questions to ask about it. I appreciate RFM's research. I would love to engage with him about it as well. I do not think the case is nearly as locked solid as he claims and I have a lot more reasons to say that as well. Just, again, it would be good to have the documents right in front of us. So I think he did some good work and some good.

Michelle Stone [05:07:12] I mean, this has been pointed out like this was pointed out forever ago by the polygamists in my discussion group. So it's not a new argument. But. But it's already been hashed out and done. And I think there is much stronger evidence to show that Joseph was teaching about eternal marriage, not polygamy, which is amalgamated in that. In what became 132.

John Dehlin [05:07:31] Okay, let me do this. I'm going to call an audible because I can tell you running out of steam and I don't want to be a jerk, so I'm going to do. But I also, also want. I want to talk about this on this podcast. And so I'm going to free you.

Michelle Stone [05:07:47] I'm okay to keep going.

John Dehlin [05:07:48] Well, I'm going to free you from having to micro respond to what. What I came up with. I want to. This will be fun. I want to put this out as an exercise to those of you who either like Michelle and like DNC130, you know, 132 problems and tend to think Joseph Smith wasn't a polygamist. And I want to throw this out to ex Mormons and critical Mormons and believing Mormons that tend to think he was a polygamist. I'm going to share with you without you needing to respond. You can respond, but I'm not expecting you to respond because I know I've already kept you five hours and you're sick and you're running out of steam. So I'm going to just share what I learned.

Michelle Stone [05:08:32] Okay.

John Dehlin [05:08:32] And I'm going to do It, I'll do it from start to finish. It'll take hopefully just five minutes. But I want to, I'm doing it because I think it's really interesting. I think it's important and I think it's a fantastic field to, as a launching point to have a lot of other interesting conversations with the documents in front of them. So I'll lay out, I'll call it a strawman. It's not a straw man. It's my best attempt at sort of highlighting what I think and what RFM thinks and other people think is like the biggest problem. And I have a little bit that RFM didn't mention that. I'm proud of myself for looking into that, that I didn't get from rfm. I'm gonna lay it out. You can respond to what you want, but I have no expectation that you do because I can tell you're tired and not feeling well.

Guest [05:09:19] Okay.

Michelle Stone [05:09:19] I wanna, I wanna give the same call out to rfm. I think it's funny, John, that that RFM is sending his questions through you rather than just engaging with me.

John Dehlin [05:09:28] So he didn't do that.

Michelle Stone [05:09:29] He just. I hope RFM at some point will be willing to have a conversation with me because I like him a lot. I'm sad that he really doesn't like me. I think we could be friends.

John Dehlin [05:09:36] Oh, yeah, absolutely. He's big hearted and he didn't give me questions to ask you. He let me know that he did an episode relating to you and then I went back and listened to it, but it wasn't like RFM's filling out.

Michelle Stone [05:09:49] So is that what this is? Because I felt very misrepresented in that episode, which is okay, I should have done a better job and shouldn't have set myself.

John Dehlin [05:09:54] No, no, this is just me taking some of the stuff RFM shared, looking at the source documents and trying to do my own understanding of what happened. So I'm going to lay this out and I'm going to challenge all of you to check out, listen to my story, check out the source documents, see what's wrong with it, see what you agree with, see what you don't. And if you want to respond to anything at the end, of course I'm going to give you a chance on this episode. So, okay, so I start with looking at the three affidavits. And of course I knew that William and Jane Law, you know, were behind the Nauvoo Expositor, but I knew nothing about, about Austin Cowles.

John Dehlin [05:10:35] So I, I started looking into it. And I hear about the Nauvoo City Council and a report, you know, reports that Joseph Smith. Well, in the. In the affidavits I read, if I'm remembering right, claims that Joseph Smith shared his revelation with the Nauvoo City Council.

Michelle Stone [05:10:57] That Joseph did or Hiram did.

John Dehlin [05:10:58] Hiram did. Yes. Thank you. Yes. Yes. Yes, thank you. Yes, that Hyrum did. So that makes me want to look a little bit more into Austin Cowles. And what I found out was that according to both the. Well, if. If. According to the LDS Church, but also apparently according to Elvira Annie Cowles own affidavit, which again, after, you can contest if you want.

John Dehlin [05:11:28] What I know about. What I learned about Elvira Annie Cowles, who I never thought about really until yesterday, was that she was a maid in the Joseph Smith home, like Vantage in, you know, let's just say around 1842, through the end of 1842, that she marries Jonathan H. Holmes, December 1, 1842. So she's in Joseph's home up until the time she marries Jonathan H. Holmes. And then according to her affidavit, as I understand it, and to the LDS Church and to the Joseph Smith Papers project, that on June 1, 1843, this would be six months after she marries Jonathan Holmes, that Elvira marries Joseph Smith as a plural wife.

John Dehlin [05:12:21] That's definitely what the Joe Smith Papers Project claims. And it lists a whole bunch of sources. It claims her own affidavit. It mentions Joseph F. Smith and his affidavits on celestial marriage. It mentions brown Nauvoo ceilings, adoptions and anointings, Todd Compton and sacred loneliness. All sorts of evidence the church would provide saying that. That Elvira was one of Joseph Smith's plural wives. Then. So that's June of 1843. And then in July 12, 1840. Did you understand you're about to fall asleep?

Michelle Stone [05:13:01] Well, can I just tell you, because I'm kind of. I appreciate that, but I would like this so much better if we were to say, hey, let's discuss the Expositor, and then we could both bring our evidences and have an actual conversation, because I know we will.

John Dehlin [05:13:14] I'm happy to do that.

Michelle Stone [05:13:15] You don't?

John Dehlin [05:13:15] Well, can I just share this one thing?

Michelle Stone [05:13:19] Y.

John Dehlin [05:13:19] And I. I know this is your interview, but I think it's. I think it's interesting. I think it's interesting. Are you saying. Are you saying I'm masquering?

Michelle Stone [05:13:28] No, I would like to push back on some of these. I'd like to add some, but can

John Dehlin [05:13:32] that be A teaser for our next episode. Can that be a teaser? And I want to challenge our viewers and listeners to go do their own research so that when we do have a second episode, this is. I'm laying out a homework assignment.

Michelle Stone [05:13:44] Okay.

John Dehlin [05:13:44] Is that okay if we frame it that way? That way you don't have to feel like this is the final word or that what I say is right. This is a homework assignment to you, the viewers and listeners, to see if I'm wrong, if she's. You know, if you've got alternative explanations. Is that all right? Is it hard for you to do that?

Michelle Stone [05:14:01] That's okay. Yeah, of course. I always want to. To say my piece, but I'll just. I'll just let you go.

John Dehlin [05:14:04] Okay. So then I read that after Elvira is allegedly married to Joseph Smith as a plural wife, that July 12, so about a month later, 1843. Allegedly. According to, I guess we would say William Clayton and maybe Hyrum Smith, that the polygamy revelation is dictated July 12, 1843.

Michelle Stone [05:14:30] So just William Clayton, not Hiram Smith, William Clayton.

John Dehlin [05:14:33] Okay. Yep. That's from his journal. Right. Okay.

Michelle Stone [05:14:36] And his later affidavit that Joseph F. Smith actually wrote that Sherilyn Bruno and I are releasing a paper on in the next couple of weeks.

John Dehlin [05:14:42] But it is in his journal. His diary.

Michelle Stone [05:14:44] Right, his recopied, highly problematic diary that still hasn't been released. Yes.

John Dehlin [05:14:48] Andrew hat's copying of a diary that he had access to that the Mormon Church is still holding and has that.

Michelle Stone [05:14:54] There's a recopy. That's not a contemporary diary. It's been recopied. It's a clean copy. It's very possible that he was creating it just as other evidence was created.

John Dehlin [05:15:04] Okay, maybe. Maybe. Yep. So Mormon Church released that freaking diary. Okay. Right, Right.

Michelle Stone [05:15:11] Yeah, we already do know that it's recopied. That's not a question.

John Dehlin [05:15:14] Okay, so according to William Clayton, July 12, 1843, the polygamy revelation is dictated by Joseph Smith to hydrate Hiram. Right. And then August 12, 1843, like you mentioned, allegedly this polygamy revelation is read to the Nauvoo High Council, and there are several attendees who stated under oath that Hyram, as you corrected me on, read that revelation to the Nauvoo High Council. And again, the Joseph Papers project text lists a gazillion affidavits of different people. Thomas Grover, Joseph F. Smith, you know, Jane and William Law. All sorts of sources the LDS Church would claim support the idea.

Michelle Stone [05:16:06] Jane and William Law didn't claim that he read it. They claimed that they saw it. Those are just the Expositor affidavits because they weren't at the High Council meeting. So they say that Hiram showed it to him. We have a lot of affidavits of people claiming that Hyrum showed them the revelation, but. In addition to theirs. But they're all later.

John Dehlin [05:16:20] But Austin Cowles would have been at that Nauvoo City Council meeting. Correct?

Michelle Stone [05:16:26] I would need to look at the roles. I'm. I'm embarrassed that I am not coming prepared for this. I'm just too fr. He has stepped down from the Nauvoo High Council. He was objecting to. You can see he wanted somebody. And I. I'm just too fuzzy to remember this. There was somebody that he wanted excommunicated, and he didn't win that argument and stepped down right after that. Okay. And I think that's a better explanation of why he stepped down, because the Expositor didn't come out until a year after that, almost a year later, and he never made a claim about. Never made a claim about Elvira or.

John Dehlin [05:17:00] Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Stone [05:17:02] Oh, I'm slumping in my chair. So.

John Dehlin [05:17:04] So my understanding is that Austin Cowles was at that Nauvoo City Council meeting meeting.

Michelle Stone [05:17:10] Okay.

John Dehlin [05:17:11] Where he. Where he alleges to have heard Hiram Smith.

Michelle Stone [05:17:14] I will not argue with him.

John Dehlin [05:17:16] The revelation. Okay. So. So. So we're trying to understand Austin. Austin Kells. Why would he end up participating in the Nauvoo Expositor? And. And why would he, you know, be mad at Joseph Smith? And what I'm piecing together is it's possible that he found out that. That his daughter had been polyandrously married to Joseph Smith at some point. Maybe I'm speculating that maybe he didn't want to believe. Like William Law, according to some accounts, didn't want to believe that Joseph was involved in the spiritual wifery. But then he's sitting in that Nauvoo City Council, and he's having Hyrum present to him this revelation that ends up being reflected again in the Navajo Expositor that also the substance of which appears in DNC 132.

John Dehlin [05:18:09] So after a month after. To the day, a month after Austin Cowles allegedly attends the City Council and has the polygamy revelation revealed to him by Hyrum, he. Sorry. Sorry, I'm getting that wrong. So August 12, 1843, is when the revelation was read to.

John Dehlin [05:18:37] Okay, yes. Was read to the Nauvoo city council. Then September 12, 1843. A month after that Nauvoo City Council meeting happens. So September 12, 1843, Austin Cows resigns from the NAU High Council. So within a month of that meeting, he resigns.

John Dehlin [05:18:57] And it, it. And the, the. You know, what I was able to read is that Austin Cowles was always against polygamy. He was always opposed to it. He was opposed to it after he resigns from the Nauvoo City Council. And, and the explanation for his motivation for signing the affidavit and participating in the Nauvoo Expositor was that he hated polygamy, was led to believe that Joseph Smith was a part of it. And I would add probably that he at some point found out that Joseph Smith had married his own daughter. And that provides a lot of explanation for why with very sincere and I would say potentially laudable motives that if true, I would think you would respect.

John Dehlin [05:19:44] He hated this idea of polygamy, associated it with Joseph, Joseph, and that's why he included his affidavit in the Nauvoo Expositor, which, by the way, along with William and Jane Law's affidavits, reflect a lot of the substantive doctrines that are allegedly presented in DNC132. And all of this has nothing to do with Heber C. Kimball or Brigham Young injecting, you know, forcing affidavits or doctoring documents. These are contemporary sources, people close to Joseph who with first hand accounts are expressing concern about learning about Joseph Smith's polygamy, learning about the revelation and then objecting to it.

John Dehlin [05:20:33] So that, you know, that was interesting to me. That's stuff I had no idea. I feel like I at least tried to go to the primary sources.

Michelle Stone [05:20:41] I think, I think again, I would rather have a conversation about this that we could both come prepared with. But I want to point out I acknowledged that this is the strongest evidence your site has. And did you hear how much speculation you had to build into that explanation? Sure. Tons and tons of speculation. Tons of it. And I again, didn't make my points. And then also I would love to like pushing back on rfm.

Michelle Stone [05:21:07] He made some claims about why there are no children in Nauvoo that were. That were like completely. It was kind of like your episode where he just hadn't studied it enough. Right. He made some outrageous claims that showed a huge lack of understanding. So I think maybe we could do another episode and we could bring up those two issues. Maybe RFM would want to come. You know, I think that would be great. I just am not up to engaging on this topic in depth. Depth right now.

John Dehlin [05:21:33] Do you. Do you feel like Cows, Austin Cows is not a credible source for the same types of reasons you do. You don't like William.

Michelle Stone [05:21:42] So I've tried to say this several times. I feel like if we look at the totality of evidence, right. If we look at the full body of evidence on each side and see what's happening, it is far easier for me to explain why Coles of some people pronounce because it's written that way at times. So Cal.

John Dehlin [05:22:00] That's right.

Michelle Stone [05:22:01] Yeah. I'm not. I'm not sure. But. But it's far easier for me to explain this than it is to explain the huge massive body of evidence on the other side. I think that you are actually not correct about why Cowell stepped down. I think it's a huge problem that he didn't ever claim that his daughter was married to Joseph Smith. Right. And I don't see any evidence of that. I just see a much, much later affidavit that we could dig in and has been problem has problems. I have found so many problems with those Navo Expositor affidavits. We have several of them that we can show they were just not telling the truth for a variety of reasons.

Michelle Stone [05:22:34] There are no notes from that Aug. 12 meeting that show what would have happened and it would have been explosive. Marx was co teaching with Hyram that day. Also I asked the question and I think that this should be considered and not just thrown out. What revelation did Hyrum go across the street and get to take teachers to the Expositor? According to the stories, the one version that Clayton wrote was burned. And we only had one other version written by Kingsbury that was tucked away and secret. And so we would have. There are. These are. These are not all of the arguments, but there are a lot of things that we would point to.

Michelle Stone [05:23:08] But then I would like the opportunity to push on you on some of my strongest arguments and have you try to explain them. Because again, we're arguing just like I'm playing complete defense here, which I don't think is the best way to get to the truth.

John Dehlin [05:23:20] And I'm not. I. I hope I was clear. I'm not. My intent wasn't to attack you or even to say no, no. It's that I proved anything. I don't think that. I can barely remember things that I have right in front of me on

Michelle Stone [05:23:31] a piece of paper. I feel bad that we're ending it on this topic rather than starting A fresh one on this topic because I feel like it leaves a taste in everyone's mouth that I have bad arguments or something. But hopefully it doesn't.

John Dehlin [05:23:40] I don't think so. I think hopefully people take their homework assignment to go study this, this story and the original sources.

Michelle Stone [05:23:48] Read the High Council record. It's a little bit tough, but John Dean wrote a good book on it.

Guest [05:23:53] Read.

Michelle Stone [05:23:53] Why like read so you can see what happened right before Cole's stepped down. Coles Kells stepped down. That I think has much better proximity. Explain why they waited a year to publish it and then look into the deeper story behind the Navu Expositor. There's a lot going in there. Law was starting a new church. He was trying to. To take over for Joseph. He wanted to be the leader. And so those who wanted to side with him had more motives than just, you know, exposing what they saw as the truth. I'm not claiming there wasn't a revelation. I've already said there were a quote, a pretended revelation. There are many claims that there were. There could have been something that they saw. What I am saying is that 132 is a later amalgamation.

John Dehlin [05:24:38] Okay?

Michelle Stone [05:24:38] I think there's a lot of evidence for that.

John Dehlin [05:24:40] But the revelation you believe does exist. There's no evidence for a different revelation.

Guest [05:24:47] Right.

John Dehlin [05:24:47] There's no document, there's no source. That's speculation. That there is a. Well, you sort of seem to have the belief that there was some revelation that was shared.

Michelle Stone [05:24:57] Joseph Smith taught, but that it didn't

John Dehlin [05:24:58] have polygamy in it. That's speculation, right?

Guest [05:25:01] No.

Michelle Stone [05:25:01] Joseph Smith taught publicly on July 16, 1843, with another. There are numerous records of it that he taught on eternal marriage. Right. And then on in the City Council minutes, both he and Hyrum say that they explain exactly what the revelation was. They explain what verse it was based on. It was based on the Sadducees trick question to Jesus about they neither marry nor are given in marriage. Joseph explains exactly what the revelation was, where it came from. It matches perfectly the notes on July 16. He says, this is the revelation that I had. This is. Is a lie. And for us to not recognize the consistency between those sources and just throw that out, I think is irresponsible.

Michelle Stone [05:25:38] And then we can show a lot of problems with those later affidavits of people claiming that Hyrum read it. And then we completely lack any notes in those High Council minutes. They have to come up with the day of August 12th. I think by going through the notes, the fact that we claim that Hyrum would be team teaching with Marx, who we know was an anti polygamist and didn't really believe it was happening. I don't. Well, until. I mean, we. We could talk about these other things. I'm just saying there are a lot of things on the other side that need to be looked at.

John Dehlin [05:26:07] Love it. Okay. All right. Thanks for going through that exercise with me. I. My. The viewers and listeners are really mad. They're like, in the interview now, is it. How do you feel? Is it okay if I ask you now switching away from source documents. Any of that just to come. A couple personal questions just to kind of.

Michelle Stone [05:26:24] Sure.

John Dehlin [05:26:24] To end on a more positive personal note.

Michelle Stone [05:26:27] Sure.

John Dehlin [05:26:27] Are you sure?

Michelle Stone [05:26:28] I'll go home and take a hot bath.

John Dehlin [05:26:30] Okay. Me too. I love that.

Michelle Stone [05:26:31] Thanks, guys, for watching out for me.

Guest [05:26:33] I appreciate it.

Michelle Stone [05:26:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:26:34] Yeah. Some people feel like you not just believing the affidavits that the women write, even into the late 1800s, is sort of a suggestion of not believing women. Women, sure. Not trusting women, of disrespecting women in their own voices. Give a quick defense for why. Because I know you believe Emma, and I know you believe in women. And I. I love that I'm hearing that such. Your. Your motivation is about empowering women and giving women voices. So when somebody says you're disrespecting these women who wrote these affidavits later by not just believing them and trusting them, well, how would you. You. What would you tell people?

Michelle Stone [05:27:15] So, again, the majority of the affidavits are actually the words of men and women are being used. Right. There are later affidavits and later writings that we can look at. And I think each one needs to be taken on its own merits. And so this is kind of a difficult question to answer, but maybe the short. I mean, I mean, I could give a better answer, but maybe the shorthand is, look at the FLDS women. Did I already talk about that when the account was rated?

John Dehlin [05:27:39] Right. No.

Michelle Stone [05:27:40] When the compound was raided, we saw these women going everywhere saying, Warren Jeffs would never marry underage girls and saying, no, I was 18 when my baby was born. Right. We have to be careful when we believe women that are trapped in a rather totalitarian society. If you look at, like, Brigham Young brought the church thousands of miles away, and they were very, very isolated in Utah. And then they. They were taught constantly that it was their responsibility to follow their priesthood head. And in some ways, Mormon polygamy is the most pernicious of all of these systems. Because I don't like to compare. And I'm sorry if I offend anyone with comparisons to slavery.

Michelle Stone [05:28:20] Please don't think I'm saying this is worse than slavery. But what I think is a useful comparison is that people who were enslaved or in the old world, women that were trapped in a king's harem, had the hope of a better future.

Michelle Stone [05:28:32] The American enslaved people had spirituals that they sang and they hoped for Moses and deliverance. Right. In Mormon polygamy, the women were taught that this was their eternity, that there was no escape from this. They had to be faithful and silent and obedient for any hope of not going to hell. Right. And so we have to think of these women in that sense circumstance. And I do. I never want to say I don't believe women, but we also need to look at their stories. Helen Markimbell's book that she writes, highly, highly problematic. It's basically an anti monogamy screed. It's saying anti, that monogamy is of the devil.

Michelle Stone [05:29:12] It will destroy the earth. It will write. And then we have all of these sort of fanciful, melodramatic, romantic claims that she makes. Right. We need to also understand the climate and culture of Utah at this time period. These women were not trying to say, Joseph Smith did this to me or he victimized me in this way. This was in a culture where the more you sacrificed for the principle, the more righteous you were. So Helen Kimball and Helen Whitney and others that were writing these, like she was maximizing her sacrifice in order to elevate herself also, these women were asked to write their. Their reminiscences for these purposes.

Michelle Stone [05:29:50] And like Elizabeth Ann Whitney's, her reminiscence was actually written by, oh, I think Emma P. Wells. I'm sorry if I get any names wrong. Forgive me, but at the behest of Eliza Smith for Edward Tulage's book.

Guest [05:30:04] Right.

Michelle Stone [05:30:04] So. And if you look at her affidavit, I mean, her reminiscence compared to the affidavits, compared to the other claims, none of it matches up. These are much easier. These documents are much easier explained as later attempts to claim earlier events. And I will just say, anyone who is curious at all about this, please go read the Temple Lot testimonies. Three of Joseph's wives testified. I think it's Lucy Walker, Melissa Lott and Emily Partridge. And if you read through their Temple Lot testimonies and then read, like, Joseph Smith III and compare them, and you can see what I'm talking about. I mourn for these women who were put in these positions to defend this. I think it's a mistake to say believe women without taking into account the situations the women are in. If we say believe Elizabeth Smart, when she says, no, I'm not Elizabeth Smart, we are not doing her a service.

John Dehlin [05:30:58] I think that Warren Jeff's FLDS point is really powerful, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. And again, if you're annoyed by what Michelle's saying or by what I'm saying saying, go check out the source documents and, and think through it yourself. I love. Anyway, really quickly I'll end on a couple more like I'm sure it's not lost to you that you know, from Brigham Young to what George Albert Smith, all those LDS Church presidents practice polygamy that you know, Russell Nelson and Down H. Oaks and several other LDS prophets, Howard W. Hunter, Joseph Fielding Smith were sealed to multiple spouses in the eternities like to say that polygamy was a mistake and that Brigham Young and Heber C.

John Dehlin [05:31:50] Kimball and John Taylor lied and hid and sinned and pushed this on the church and that just the prophetseers and revelators from then to now all got it wrong. Wrong. Number one, how I'm sure you can see how that sort of potentially puts them in the light of being evil people because that's making up things. Sexual predation, forging documents, rewriting history.

John Dehlin [05:32:19] That's the work of evil. And so like there's so many different ways to ask this question. But like how does that not, number one, condemn a bunch of prophets, seers and revelators that according to the LDS Church, God called, you know what I'm saying? Like that's, how can the church be true? How can God be at the head of the LDS Church if, if God is calling horrible men to, to be prophets for a couple centuries.

Michelle Stone [05:32:51] So I don't, I don't know that I would agree with the characterization of horrible men or evil men. I think it's more important to get in and try to understand their moral framework. Try to understand them. I am deeply troubled by many things, particularly about Brigham Young. I also try to give grace and see the value that he brought and some of the good things that he accomplished. That is. So anyway, I don't know if I should say that I had a real struggle. So my 16 year old people are going to make fun of me but some people are really mean. But my 16 year old old is named Brigham and I had a real like crisis realizing I had done that.

Michelle Stone [05:33:27] My husband did not want to name Him, Brigham. I argued for it just because I thought it was a cool name. I didn't love Brigham Young. I just thought it was a cool name. I went to high school with a cool kid named Brigham, had good associations with it. And anyway. And I've had to deal with like. Like I went through a time of feeling like I named my son Adolf, you know, when I. And so it's been good for me to try to go in again and try to see from a different perspective, you know, and have more grace. But I do struggle with a lot of things.

Michelle Stone [05:33:54] It's true. However, when I read the Scriptures, I don't see perfect people and perfect leaders. Right. I see a pattern of God doing something, establishing a people, and then spending the rest of the time trying to get them to come back to the terms of the covenant or whatever we want to call it, to stop doing things, things that are pretty wrong. I, I think the whole.

Michelle Stone [05:34:18] I mean, we can look throughout the Scriptures. I could talk about Eli's sons and how evil they were, that he called them as priests and let them keep sexually predate, predating the women and taking all of the feasts. We can look at Samuel and his sons. We can look throughout history and say there are problems with church leaders at times. However, that doesn't necessarily invalidate what God did through those people. People. And I don't believe it invalidates us. I think the message of Jesus Christ is you can always turn back, you can always come again, right? You can always repent. We don't say, oh, sorry you did that, therefore it's all over, you're done. And I, again, I just. As I have looked into, like, for

Guest [05:34:59] me, the roots of this church are really, really good. I know people agree, disagree.

Michelle Stone [05:35:05] For me, as I have delved into this research, my, My heart has been

Guest [05:35:11] really softened for Joseph Smith. It's really been a redemptive process because

Michelle Stone [05:35:15] I had the same challenges, the same biases and grudges against him. And as I have studied things that I didn't know and sources that aren't talked about, and seeing how he dealt with things, how he dealt with people coming after him consistently time after time,

Guest [05:35:31] it's really easy to look at the

Michelle Stone [05:35:32] sources of what other people said about him, him. But it's something else to look at his own words and his own actions.

Guest [05:35:38] And it has honestly amazed me. I. I have come to really. I know this will ruffle feathers, but I have come to love Emma and Joseph Smith. And I feel that's one of the

Michelle Stone [05:35:51] reason, like when you guys were doing

Guest [05:35:52] your episode, I just, you know, I

Michelle Stone [05:35:55] just want to cry sometimes because I

Guest [05:35:57] feel like people misunderstand him so badly

Michelle Stone [05:35:59] from what I have seen. Seen.

Guest [05:36:01] And so I think the roots of reliance on the spirit, forgiveness, love, Christlike attributes, believing that God can commune with man, believing we can live our lives this way, being taught to ask God each day, what can I do today to make the world a better place? How can I serve you? The. The roots that I see, the power that I. Of Mormon and so much of the Doctrine and Covenants. Right. Combined with the fruits that I see of the people around me and the goodness and being able to feel the spirit and the like. I had my son who was. Who attempted suicide, who served a mission, and my gosh, like, missions have been good for my kids.

Guest [05:36:45] I don't want to just take that away from them too quickly. And I know we have all kinds of questions, you know, I've had to have answers. But I know that there are troubling branches, you know, but I don't think that branches define the entire tree. And I think that if we're up there trying to do our best to just cut some of those branches off to make the tree a little better. I, I just. I went through a lot of time

Michelle Stone [05:37:11] of not having much hope at all for the church, just thinking, okay, it's

Guest [05:37:15] condemned, it's over, and the Lord has really changed my perspective on that. I was called kind of in a surprising way to. To go back to the temple. I. My ptsd. I had had a couple of experiences in the temple, and I was not going to go to the temple again. But after I was healed, I was told to go to the temple and I had some profound experiences, and I was given. So I was shown that there is so much hope for the church. Like, we're not done yet. It's not over. And. And I. Anyway, I just. I. I really, really love so much of this church that, that if some of the leaders got some things wrong,

Michelle Stone [05:37:53] God's bigger than that.

Guest [05:37:54] I. I have learned there is no

Michelle Stone [05:37:55] mistake I can make that's too big for God to fix. And I think that's true of all of our leaders as well.

Implications, Church Discipline, and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [05:38:03] Beautiful. I have to ask this before we go. I'm sure somebody wrote that it's kind of people who don't like the church win either way if you're right, that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy, Polygamy, that makes all the subsequent prophets, according to this person, horrible people. And the church is false. Therefore, it loses. If Joseph Smith was a polygamist, then the church was founded by a sexual predator, and the church loses. So it's kind of a. People. People sometimes view your position as being a lose. Lose for the church.

Michelle Stone [05:38:36] It's irrelevant. Right. That's exactly what I said earlier, why I didn't want to get into Joseph Smith, because I was like, it doesn't matter who started it. It's the same person problem for the church.

John Dehlin [05:38:44] And so somebody would then say, then you're on the chopping block for excommunication, because just talking about this stuff sort of like, maligns the church from the church's perspective, and that would make them see you as a threat. So, like, I'm sure you do this knowing that excommunication is a possibility. Do you have thoughts and feelings about that?

Michelle Stone [05:39:04] I. I pray all the time that.

Guest [05:39:09] That we can have room in the

Michelle Stone [05:39:11] church for loyal, faithful, good members who

Guest [05:39:14] disagree on a historical point, who say, like. Like, it's.

Michelle Stone [05:39:19] It is surprising that saying our founding prophet was faithful to his wife and told the truth might be considered an excommunicable offense. That's really. That's really something to wrap your brain around. Right. I know that I am putting my

Guest [05:39:34] leadership in a difficult position, and I love and appreciate them so much. They're such incredibly good man men. And I hate that I am making their job harder, you know, And I. I recognize that our church sometimes struggles with people having a different view. I never want to say what the church should do. I try really hard not to be critical. And if I have overstepped in any way, then I'm sorry if. Let me retract that. I look back at Mountain Meadows Massacre and think, one. Maybe the only thing we can feel good about in that whole horrible episode is the fact that we didn't excommunicate Juanita Brooks. I think that is a really beautiful thing that helps give us some amount

Michelle Stone [05:40:20] of redemption from that terrible, terrible episode.

Guest [05:40:25] I compare that to, like, Helmut Huebner, right.

Michelle Stone [05:40:28] Who was excommunicated when he was fighting against Hitler.

Guest [05:40:31] I. I don't. I know that I am making people uncomfortable. I understand that, you know, this is unchartered territory.

Michelle Stone [05:40:39] I do pray, and I ask.

Guest [05:40:41] I ask your audience to pray that. That there can continue to be room

Michelle Stone [05:40:45] in the church for me and my

Guest [05:40:46] family, because it blesses us a lot.

John Dehlin [05:40:54] Beautiful. And I think we already discussed that you are seeing people being excommunicated for having the public position that Joseph did not practice polygamy. Is that right?

Guest [05:41:04] I think, I think.

Michelle Stone [05:41:05] Well, you know, like anything, it depends on what is your term.

Guest [05:41:07] Bishop roulette, you know, like, like leadership.

Michelle Stone [05:41:09] And, and I am, I do understand.

Guest [05:41:11] I, I just think, I think in general excommunication is. I, I don't see it in general doing, doing more good than harm. And, and I really do mourn at the people I know who have been excommunicated. I'm hoping that.

Michelle Stone [05:41:26] I know some people think like, like

Guest [05:41:28] I don't, I don't go sound off at my ward.

Michelle Stone [05:41:30] I don't say things, you know, I, I don't. I feel like Sunday service is a very sacred space where I hope that everybody doesn't bring their own pet issue in and make it hard for us to all worship together. So I hope that, that helpful and I try to be very respectful. I don't try to convince anybody that I'm right in my life, you know, but I do hope that I can continue to read the scriptures and believe what they say, testify of the goodness of Joseph and Emma Smith and study history. That's basically what I'm doing. And I hope it doesn't become a problem. I don't think it should become a problem. I don't think historians, historical questions should be like articles of faith.

Guest [05:42:14] Right.

Michelle Stone [05:42:15] We should be able to study a historical question. The fact is, for anyone who wants to claim I'm hurting the church or leading people out of the church, the truth is polygamy hurts the church. Polygamy leads people out of the church. And one of the arguments I say is I hope that as a church, we don't want the only people talking about it to be people like you who really are quite critical of the church. Right. And I mean, that's not an offense, but, but I would like there to

Guest [05:42:40] be room for my voice to talk about polygamy in a way where I really am genuinely an advocate for the church. Even knowing the challenges, I hope, maybe

Michelle Stone [05:42:51] this is perceptuous of me, but I

Guest [05:42:52] hope that my church could see me

Michelle Stone [05:42:54] as part of the solution. Look, here's someone who has studied all

Guest [05:42:58] of this in depth and, and has felt strongly compelled to stay and you know, and I, I hope that that can be something that that won't cause. I just, I feel bad that I'm causing more problems for any of the church leaders who already do so much.

John Dehlin [05:43:17] Beautiful. All right, well, I'm having a mutiny by my staff and the viewers saying let Michelle go free. Michelle.

Michelle Stone [05:43:23] No, it's an all nighter.

Guest [05:43:24] We're here for Good.

John Dehlin [05:43:26] Everyone's mad at me. In fairness, we. We did agree that it would be a lengthy interview, but you've been a great sport.

Michelle Stone [05:43:33] Well. And it's been delightful, John. It's been really fun.

John Dehlin [05:43:35] Did I do okay?

Guest [05:43:36] You did. I was. I was a little concerned.

Michelle Stone [05:43:39] I was a little mad last night, but I think we came through it.

John Dehlin [05:43:42] Was this okay?

Guest [05:43:43] Yeah, this was great.

John Dehlin [05:43:44] If people are mad at me for this, you're. You're telling me I'm okay?

Michelle Stone [05:43:48] You're okay?

Guest [05:43:49] Just tell them to like, send me

Michelle Stone [05:43:50] flowers or bubble bath or something.

John Dehlin [05:43:52] Do you accept donations? Do you accept financial.

Guest [05:43:55] I do. I do.

John Dehlin [05:43:55] I would love to people support you financially.

Michelle Stone [05:43:57] Yeah, just on. On 132 problems. I accept Venmo or Patreon or just on YouTube.

Guest [05:44:05] I, I really, I really do. My.

Michelle Stone [05:44:07] My husband would love it if I were helping with the. With an income now that I don't have babies. It's. He funds my passion product project. So I love, I appreciate any donations. Especially also while we're trying to do this journal and build. Do this conference and build the Journal. I really do want to ask people, please consider attending the conference. The Journal of Mormon Polygamy Conference. You'll rub shoulders with a lot of people here. If you, if you've been interested enough to sit in through, what has it been, six hours? I think this might be something that you would really enjoy and appreciate. We would love to see you there. We'd love to meet people. I think it's going to be a

John Dehlin [05:44:43] great opportunity and I think you want me to show that screen again, so I'll just show it there. There is the website for the Journal of Mormon Polygamy, and there's the registration button. What are the dates again? And who's the.

Michelle Stone [05:44:58] March 21st. 22nd. I will remind people that my co. Founder of the Journal does not agree with my perspective.

John Dehlin [05:45:03] Cheryl Bruno.

Guest [05:45:04] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [05:45:04] Cheryl Bruno is a hardcore polygamy affirmer. I'm a pretty hardcore monogamy affirmer. So we are bringing that. That opposition into everything we do, which I think think makes us. Makes us a powerhouse. It's really a good combination.

John Dehlin [05:45:21] All right, well, I've really cherished It's. It's hard for me to get super excited and engaged in interviews sometimes. After 20 years and 2000 episodes. I loved preparing for today and I loved every minute of our 5 hours and 47 minutes that we spent together. I'm sorry you're sick and I'm sorry I kept you so long, but I didn't want to end on just that intense historical conversation.

Guest [05:45:45] Yeah, no, I think the stuff you

John Dehlin [05:45:46] shared at the end brings it back up to an uplifting conclusion.

Michelle Stone [05:45:50] And you know what?

John Dehlin [05:45:50] More heartfelt.

Michelle Stone [05:45:52] I've got a heart of steel. I always could go longer, so I'm just fine. No, I, I have really, really appreciated this interview. I thought you conducted it very respectfully, very well, and I cannot thank you enough.

John Dehlin [05:46:03] Yeah. Well, thank you.

Michelle Stone [05:46:05] So no one be mad at John. Don't be mad at John. Done.

John Dehlin [05:46:08] Yeah. You hear that, Herardo? Okay. All right. So the, the YouTube channel is 132 problems. Michelle Stone. Yeah. Thank you so much for sitting in the hot seat and for pushing us all to look at the primary sources. Yeah. And I, I really, really. And if you want, let's figure out a part two.

Michelle Stone [05:46:29] Yes, please, guys, hold him to that. Be mad at him if he doesn't bring me back.

John Dehlin [05:46:33] You want to do a part two?

Michelle Stone [05:46:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [05:46:35] Yeah.

Michelle Stone [05:46:36] I'll come do some of your Mormon discussions. I'll do whatever you want.

John Dehlin [05:46:39] It'll be the contrarian. The, the, or I'll just, It'll be truly neutral.

Guest [05:46:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:46:43] Or objective.

Michelle Stone [05:46:44] Yeah.

Guest [05:46:44] Then, yeah.

John Dehlin [05:46:45] Having multiple sides.

Michelle Stone [05:46:46] Yeah. Use me however you want to. I'm game for all of it. I, I, I am passionate about this topic. I love the research. I love presenting it. So.

John Dehlin [05:46:53] All right. Thank you. Michelle Stone. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories.

Guest [05:46:56] Thanks.

John Dehlin [05:46:57] Thanks to all our viewers and listeners. Again, don't hate me. We couldn't do this without, without your financial support. So thanks to everyone who donates. Thanks to Brooklyn, Julia, Gerardo Maven. They were all integral to today's episode. Thanks to our board, thanks to our donors. If you want to become a donor, go to mormonstories.org click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor. Also support Michelle Stone and 132. 132 problems. While you're at it, check out the conference. I may go. It just depends on whether I'm available.

Michelle Stone [05:47:31] Come, John.

John Dehlin [05:47:31] I will try and come.

Michelle Stone [05:47:33] Yes, you would be. We have lunches set up where people can go to lunch with whoever they want to. So people would love to, to come and go to lunch with you. I think you would be a fantastic presence at the conference. It'd be great.

John Dehlin [05:47:46] Sometimes I think the more mysterious crowd hates me, but thanks for saying that.

Michelle Stone [05:47:49] Well, do you know what? That's. We are expanding. We. This is the Mormon study studies crowd. Hey hates me. I am not allowed to anyway. There it's been. You know what? I know that we're already done. But it has been shocking to see people not wanting these conversations to take place. So I really appreciate you jumping on board. And we also want more voices studying this topic. So I would love to invite RFM to submit an article on his topic to our Expositor episode. And, John, if you have anything you'd want to submit, it'd be great. Come on, get the scholarship going.

John Dehlin [05:48:22] Okay. All right.

Michelle Stone [05:48:23] Or anybody else listening, anybody who. Who wants to dig in and study that. People have no idea, like, the field is white. All ready to harvest on this topic.

John Dehlin [05:48:33] Beautiful. All right, thanks again, Michelle. Thanks, Cheryl. Thanks, everyone, for joining us today. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Read the primary sources, get engaged, talk to people. Instead of talk about people. I say these things in the name of Emma Spirit Smith. Amen.

Guest [05:48:50] Okay?

John Dehlin [05:48:50] How's that?

Guest [05:48:51] Amen.

John Dehlin [05:48:52] All right. Thanks for joining us today, everybody. Take care. See you all again soon. On another episode of Mormon Stories podcast.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.