Join John and Jenn as they hear the unique Mormon Story of Sam and Melissa Zitting Wyson. Sam grew up in the FLDS church in Short Creek. After leaving the FLDS at age 18 he converted to the mainstream LDS church. He then met and fell in love with his beautiful wife, Melissa.
Listen in part two as Sam and Melissa begin to question doctrine of the LDS faith and their transition together out of the mainstream LDS church.
Listen in part two as Sam and Melissa begin to question doctrine of the LDS faith and their transition together out of the mainstream LDS church.
You can find them on their amazing YouTube channel, Growing Up in Polygamy!
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Guests: Melissa Zitting Wyson, Sam Zitting Wyson
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introducing Sam and Melissa Zitting Wyson
Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1617
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your two co hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is June 20, 2022 and I'm here in studio with Jen Camp. Hey Jen.
Guest [00:00:14] Hi everybody.
John Dehlin [00:00:15] Thanks for joining us.
Guest [00:00:16] Of course.
John Dehlin [00:00:17] Yeah. It's good to have you, Jen.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:00:18] Thanks.
John Dehlin [00:00:19] And we are here for what I think is going to be one of the most important interviews of the year and maybe it'll go down as one of the most important interviews that I, that, that I do. We are here today to interview Melissa and Sam. This is Sam Zitting Weissen and Melissa Zitting Weissen, who went by Melissa, I guess Cowles before you. You married Sam, is that right?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:00:49] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:00:50] And they are the co hosts of a really exciting and up and coming YouTube channel called Growing Up Polygamy which has at least 20,000 subscribers. And my personal inbox has been inundated over the past month or two with requests to interview them because they have such a devoted, loyal following. Who wants to hear their full story from start to finish? And with the. Not just the under the Banner of Heaven, you know, series that came out on Hulu, but recently a new series has come out on Netflix called called Keep Sweet Pray and Obey, I think it's called, which is talking about the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the FLDS Church that is still, I guess, currently led by Warren Jeffs. It's an offshoot of the most well known LDS church that up until recently was primarily located in Colorado City or Short Creek, which is either in southern Utah or northern Arizona or somewhere in Colorado. I, I forget exactly what the, what the borders are of that, of that group. And of course at some point they moved to El Dorado. And of course at some point Warren Jeffs was put in jail for I guess it was an accomplice to rape of a, of a minor. But we're going to get into all that. But this Netflix series, both Gerardo, my, my colleague got into it and, and then Jen Camp also really got into it. Jen cares a lot about this issue. It's, it's personal to her as well. And both Gerardo and Jen are like, John, we really need to cover fundamentalist polygamy more on Mormon stories. I'll, I'll just say we, we have covered it a tiny bit. My very first video I ever did. I'll just say this for history's sake. I interviewed a woman named Ann Wild. That was the first video I ever tried to do. I did it on my own. And she was a polygamist and she was proud of it. She was raised lds, married LDS man and then divorced him and then married Ogden Kraut who was like a really well known polygamist, fundamentals polygamist and author in the 60s and 70s that, that got under Bruce Armaconki's skin quite a bit. Anyway, we'll include a link to the Anne Wilde. It's W I L D E and Wild interview. I've also interviewed Vance Allred and Lance Allred from the Allred group. So Vance Allred recently passed away. He was a really well loved historian, school teacher of history here in Salt Lake. He was the son of Ruling Allred who led the Allred group for many years. And then his son Lance Allred was the first deaf NBA player in the, in the National Basketball association and he played with LeBron James for the Cleveland Cavaliers. So those are at least a couple like to say three. And I've interviewed Lance twice, one for his story and then once for a book that he came out about toxic masculinity recently. Anyway, that's a little bit of what we've covered so far, Mormon stories. There may be a couple other instances, of course. We did a recent series with Sandra Tanner about polygamy. I entered Todd Compton very early on. We can include a link to that. Todd Compton is the author of a really important book called In Sacred Loneliness. So that was one of the first, I would say 30 interviews that I did on Mormon stories was interviewing Todd Compton. And and then of course we've interviewed Lindsay Hansen park where she talked about her Year of Polygamy episode. So we've tried to cover polygamy a little bit over the years, but never like today with all the time that we have and really good audio and video and never with a couple that are so awesome.
Guest [00:04:36] Thanks.
John Dehlin [00:04:37] Yeah. And I'll, I'll add we really, we're going to be doing this episode and then we're also going to be doing a panel later this week with you guys, with Jen and Gerardo, I think is the plan for now, maybe someone else as well. But we would really love to do a long form interview with a woman who grew up in the FLDS church. And so I'm going to put that call out there as well. And I just kind of want to state some intentions up front. So anyway, that's just a little bit of background, but. But today, you know, and if everybody's saying, wow, this is the longest intro ever, I'm just gonna Say we do long form on Mormon Stories podcast because these issues are important. The people care about the information. We don't want sound bites and highly edited stuff. We like to take time. So that's why we're doing this. So I guess I'm not gonna apologize for the intro, but, but I will say that we, I'll just tell everyone how we plan to do today. We plan to begin by doing part one, which will be Sam's experience growing up in the FLDS church up through when things started to go wrong. So up through about age 16 or so. That's going to be part one of this episode. We can't do eight hour episodes, so we're going to do that as part one. Part two is going to be once things started falling apart with Sam's experience with the FLDS church, what led to him, and I'm gonna give away a little bit of the ending, what led to him converting to the traditional mainstream LDS Church, which included meeting Elder Jeffrey R. Holland and serving a full time mission for the church, kind of going from FLDS to a full time Mormon missionary within a year, I believe. And, and then eventually, you know, him meeting him, meeting Melissa and marrying her and, and sort of trying to do the traditional LDS Church route. That's going to be part two and then part three. We'll talk about where their faith journeys have led them today, if they have had any struggles with their orthodox LDS faith, we'll talk about that and we'll talk about what's led them to start their own channel. And we'll probably just do some Q and A about, you know, Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs and the similarities and differences and the LDS Church and the FDS Church and the similarities and differences. We'll be doing that in our panel as well. But in, in part three, we may have a bit more of a freeformed discussion. So that's our intention for today. Buckle up, relax, get a, a tea or a coffee or a Diet Coke or a water, whatever your beverage of choice is. We're just super excited. Jen, is there anything I left off that you want to add?
Guest [00:07:32] No, I. That's great. I'm excited.
John Dehlin [00:07:34] Yeah. Okay. All right.
Guest [00:07:37] So.
John Dehlin [00:07:38] And, and I guess I should say Sam and Melissa, is there anything you would want to add to that introduction before we jump in?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:07:45] No, sounds great. And that. I think that's a great way to go about it. So we're excited to get into it.
John Dehlin [00:07:50] Okay, good. All right. And I'll give, I'll give one last maybe tiny bit of disclaimer. Normally, normally when we interview a couple, we want to make sure and give both people full time for their full stories. And especially since we come from a patriarchy, we, if we air, we are on the side of giving the woman even more time than the man. In this case, because we're featuring, we're kind of spotlighting the FLDS church. We are going to hear Melissa's story, but they flew in this morning and they're going to fly out this evening. And so we have to manage time a little bit. And so we're going to, we're going to definitely hear about Melissa's story, but we might not be giving Melissa as quite the level of emphasis, frankly, that she deserves just, just because of, of time constraints. And so, but, but, but we are definitely inviting Melissa to, to jump in and share all the way along, and we will be doing her story again, just not with the level of depth that you deserve.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:08:57] No worries. It sounds great.
John Dehlin [00:08:58] Okay. All right, so without any further ado, let's begin. Normally, I say let's begin with your, your Mormon story, but I, I'm guessing, Sam, you didn't identify as a Mormon growing up, so. No.
FLDS Origins and Relationship to Mainstream Mormonism
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:09:12] No, not really. We did not. So, I mean, we, we understood the similarities, but it was never. We didn't consider ourselves Mormon. You're correct.
John Dehlin [00:09:20] Yeah. So where does your FLDS story begin? And if you want to talk about your ancestors, I don't know when your family might have joined the movement, but if you want to mention that, I want to hear about your parents and even your grandparents or ancestors, if that's relevant at all.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:09:40] So both of my parents were raised in the FLDS church, and so it's. I guess I have a long line of people in the FLDS Church, but my great, great grandfather was the first one to join, and he actually came over from Sweden, directly from Sweden with the early Saints to Utah. So he was converted from Sweden, came to Utah with the Saints, and that's kind of where our first introduction to the mainstream LDS Church was.
John Dehlin [00:10:11] Any idea about when that was?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:10:13] Oh, man, I'm not.
John Dehlin [00:10:14] Decade, even a decade or century?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:10:17] Oh, man, I'm trying to remember the exact date. I did look it up. I don't remember off the top of my head, though. But anyway, so he came across with the Saints and joined the church at that point. I'm not exactly too sure on his exact conversion story. So that's something that I would have to dive into a little bit more and is something that I'm more interested in now, so I will be looking into that.
John Dehlin [00:10:40] Sure.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:10:41] But anyway, so that was the first introduction. And for the first time, long while we were as far as my ancestors, they were all just a part of the mainstream known as Mormon Church. That's kind of where the background started and came from.
John Dehlin [00:10:57] And you're kind of the. Your. Your last name was Zitting.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:11:02] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:11:02] And your mom's maiden name, Bigly Beagly.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:11:06] Her last name is Beagley.
John Dehlin [00:11:08] So you come from Zitting and Beagleys.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:11:10] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:11:10] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:11:11] Correct.
John Dehlin [00:11:11] So mainstream Mormons.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:11:12] Exactly.
John Dehlin [00:11:13] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:11:13] Yes. A lot of England and Sweden and Scotland. Those areas is kind of where my ancestors are all from.
John Dehlin [00:11:22] Western Europe and Scandinavia. Okay.
Guest [00:11:24] All right.
John Dehlin [00:11:24] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:11:25] Yeah. So. And then as. As time went on, I'm sure a lot of people know about the manifesto and Wilford Woodruff signing that. So that's kind of where things split off.
John Dehlin [00:11:37] If it's okay, can I just. We have a lot of never Mormons who. Listen, half our audience has never been Mormons. So I'll just. I'll explain that super briefly. Is that okay?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:11:45] Definitely.
John Dehlin [00:11:45] Okay. So Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith secretly practiced polygamy and lied about it up until his death. So basically, 1841, 1844, secretly practicing it, lying them about it, hiding it from most of the members, had over 30 wives, was killed for trying to cover up, was basically put in jail for trying to cover up people who are outing him for his polygamy by printing, you know, a newspaper printing press called the Navo Expositor. He had it destroyed because it was going to out him as having lied about practicing polygamy. He was put in jail, and then he was killed while he was in jail. And the Mormon Church didn't want to admit the polygamy for many, many years. Even when they moved to Utah and were still practicing it, they kind of wanted to keep it under wraps until, I think the mid-1850s. Brigham Young finally came out and admitted it. But even when, even when the Mormon Church was sending missionaries to the British Isles to convert women to polygamy, to bring them to the states to become polygamous wives, they were telling the Europeans that they weren't practicing polygamy. And to the world, they were still denying it up until they just couldn't deny it anymore. But then from like the 1850s to the 1890s, for about 40 years, the. They were openly practicing polygamy. But then the United States government started really going after them because it was illegal. And so they started putting our leaders in jail, arresting them, and seizing Our property. And it was basically the church was going to cease to be if they didn't abandon the polygamy.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:13:33] Right.
John Dehlin [00:13:34] And so Brigham Young, John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff all were polygamists. John Joseph Smith. Bring on John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff. Wilford Woodruff. Yeah, but in 1890, the church told everyone publicly that they were going to stop practicing polygamy. And that's the, the manifesto that you're talking about that Wilford Woodruff issued. However, the, the, the mainstream orthodox LDS church, the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints, continued secretly practicing polygamy for at to 20 years after that. But the 1890 is this manifesto the LDS Church put out to tell the world they were going to stop and lied about that too. But we're not trying to criticize the church. That's just a fact. So that's the 1890 manifesto that we're for Wilford Woodruff put out. Now we've your your family back in.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:14:31] Yes, and you're correct, actually, for a long time, a lot of the leaders that started the FLDS church remained in good terms with the church and Wilford Woodruff because they already had several wives. And for a time there, the leaders of the church, like Wilford Woodruff, he as well, had several wives. So for those that continued on with polygamy, they said that was okay, but no one else was allowed to get more wives at that point.
John Dehlin [00:14:57] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:14:58] And then it was a later leader, it was after Wilford Woodruff, I believe the prophet after him or maybe two down the line.
John Dehlin [00:15:05] So there's Wilford Woodruff, then Lorenzo Snow and Joseph F. Smith and Heber J. Grant. I think they were all polygamists. I think David O. McKay was the first Mormon prophet that wasn't a polygamist.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:15:15] I think, yes, I believe it was Joseph F. Smith that actually finally stood up and said, okay, we are having nothing else to do with polygamy because if we continue this on, the government will shut us down. And so that I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that's kind of the leader that stood up and said, okay, no more. And that's where the FLDS originally said, or just came up, came out and said, okay, we're no longer going to be associated with the mainstream church. We're starting starting our own thing. Because the leaders like Wilford Woodruff, Brigham Young, all of these leaders told us that polygamy was necessary to return to
John Dehlin [00:15:51] God and we should have our own episode about the rumors that John Taylor, I think, received a revelation that Polygamy was supposed to continue, but that it needed to continue separate from the mainstream church, and that that had John Taylor's blessing and even potentially the Lord's blessing.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:16:09] Exactly. And I have heard of that. So it was because of these prophets that came out and said, this is necessary to return to the celestial kingdom and live in the presence of God. So a lot of the leaders, my grandfather being one of them, said, okay, we have to continue on. There's no way that God would change his mind like this. And all of a sudden say, never mind. This isn't important. And so they. My grandfather was very, very. Charles Zitting was a very big part of this, and he was thrown into prison for quite some time as well.
John Dehlin [00:16:41] Really? Yes, in the mid-1900s. Okay.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:16:44] Yep.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:16:44] And my father actually.
John Dehlin [00:16:46] There were raids, right? The government did some raids.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:16:48] There were. Yes, there were.
John Dehlin [00:16:49] Do you want to give a little bit of history on that? Because I didn't know your family was involved in that.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:16:53] Yeah, so. Well, I mean, that was a long time ago. So my father was boy during these raids, and at the time, I believe the prophet was Roy Johnson. He went by Uncle Warren to those that were members of the FLDS church. I'm sorry, Uncle Roy. Yes, Uncle Roy. And so there were law enforcement showed up many, many years ago. This happened more than once.
John Dehlin [00:17:17] Where would this have been? What town?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:17:18] So this was on the border of Utah and Arizona in Colorado City and Hildale. Huh. Or otherwise known as Short Creek.
John Dehlin [00:17:26] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:17:27] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:17:27] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:17:28] So the law enforcement showed up, they split up the families. They took them, the women and children, and kind of scattered them throughout Arizona. And after Roy Johnson and the other leaders of the church were released from prison, they actually went out and drove throughout the state and gathered up all of the children and. And women and brought them all back.
John Dehlin [00:17:50] Do you. Do you have any stories, family stories about your grandfather being involved in this?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:17:55] There are some stories. You know, it was one of those things where even my father, you know, he's at an advanced age now. You know, he was a very young boy. And so it was one of those things that. It was something that I heard from him because he was such a young boy as. Well, I don't. I don't know that or know too many very specifics, I guess.
John Dehlin [00:18:17] And what was tricky about those raids, as I understand it, was that the government didn't really think it through because they're. They're incarcerating all these fathers, but then all the wives and children have no one to feed them. And so they're literally starving. And they realized, oh, do we really want to cause a bunch of women and children to starve?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:18:37] Right?
John Dehlin [00:18:37] And that's why, if I understand it, that's why they had to let the men go. And then prosecuting for polygamy became a problem after that. From the 1950s forward, it did.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:18:48] And it's been very difficult for anyone to prosecute for polygamy because of some of the issues that they had had in the past.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:18:53] Well, and they didn't really want to have people in jail for polygamy. Like, these men were good men. And his grandfather's journals, you know, he talks about the fact he was one of the men, he's, like, in jail and had written down his life story, and we're lucky to have that. And he mentions the fact that, you know, they. They basically came and said, hey, we don't want to keep you here anymore. We don't want you in jail. All you have to do is say that you're not going to practice. Just say, we're not going to practice polygamy anymore, and we'll let you go. And his grandfather stood up and said, I will not deny what I believe in, and I will stand for the truth, and I am going to practice polygamy. And they had to keep him longer than all the other men that he was with.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:19:32] So he was one of the few that.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:19:33] One of the few that was willing
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:19:34] to say, no, I will not say this is wrong. I know this is truth. And I guess a quick story there that my father did share with me. He remembers that while his father was in prison, my grandfather, at times when they were transported to go do some manual labor, the people in prison, they were transferred in a truck to go do some manual labor to help out. And as they were going from one place to another, they were actually. I guess some of these men were good friends with the driver of the truck. And so they actually were allowed to drive past their family's homes on the way to work. And the families would stand out and wave. And my father remembers standing out in front of his house, waving to his father, driving back and forth in this prison vehicle. So, you know, I mean, he got to see him. And it turns out that the driver of that truck was a direct descendant to my mother, which is interesting how that connection all. All worked out. But anyway, so my father has experiences and stories, but being so young, you know, he doesn't recall all of that.
John Dehlin [00:20:43] There's one last matter of history I just want to make really Clear to the people that are learning about this for the first time. The modern Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints kind of likes to create the impression that they have nothing to do with polygamy and they have nothing to do with the FLDS church and all these people down in southern Utah. But what's dishonest about that is that not only was Joseph Smith the polygamist and had over 30 wives, underage wives, other men's wives, but it's, it's currently in the Mormon Church's Doctrine and Covenants as doctrine. If you go to Section 132 of the LDS Church's Doctrine and Covenants, polygamy is all there spelled out. So it's still doctrinal. Not only did Joseph Smith, through the prophet before David O. McKay, they all practiced it. And most importantly, pretty much every prophet from Joseph Smith until Heber J. Grant stated that it was doctrine, that polygamy was an eternal doctrine, that it was an essential doctrine and that polygamy would never be rescinded from the earth, that it couldn't, that it was God's law. They denounced heterosexual sort of monogamy. They denounced it in General Conference. And they, they claimed that exaltation or achieving the highest degree of salvation in the celestial kingdom in the Mormon Church, polygamy was required for that. And we're not talking, you know, Warren Jeffs here. We're talking about, you know, people like Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, prophets like that, LDS Church prophets making those sorts of statements. And then when you add to that all that the early Mormon pioneers and settlers sacrificed partly because of living polygamy, to then just, you can see why there was a big branch of fundamentalist Mormons that said we can't betray all that we've sacrificed. We can't betray the prophets and what they taught. They're men of God. And so there's a real, in my view, there's a real integrity to the flds, to the, to the fundamentalist strains of Mormonism, because in my view, they're living more true to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young's Mormonism than the modern church. And instead of being viewed as dishonorable, dishonest, criminal weirdos, they, in my mind, at least before Warren Jeffs was sleeping with 13 year olds, you know what I mean? They deserve to be in some sense respected for living true, true Mormonism. And so I just wanted to kind of make that defense on your behalf.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:23:23] Yes, well, and something to keep in mind too is a lot of the persecution in the early church was because of polygamy, dealing with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. And so a lot of my grandfather included, they would say, hey, we can't just now say, no, we're not going to do this anymore. A lot of what we went through and a lot of the difficulties we went through was because we're staying true to this law.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:23:45] Yeah. Everything else would be in vain. Why would we dishonor our entire past and everything that all the sacrifices everybody went through if we're going to just deny it at the end? Right. We're supposed to endure to the end. And the fles really, truly live that they believe that they're enduring to the end.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:24:01] And my father would definitely say that it's that he is living the law, the restored gospel. The polygamy was part of this restoration, and it's necessary to return and to be in the highest degree of glory.
Guest [00:24:19] Did you ever. Did they ever teach that the mainstream LDS faith would again start to practice polygamy? Was that ever taught with you guys or. I'm just wondering about that, like, if they ever.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:24:33] That people from the FLDS said, yeah, if they. If they taught. I'm sorry, the question is if they taught me that eventually the mainstream LDS
Guest [00:24:44] people would come back into, like, polygamy or into your fold again.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:24:48] Well, they looked at the. I don't know that this was actually
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:24:52] taught in the church, but it was definitely rumored.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:24:55] But it was rumored that growing up in the flds, we looked at the mainstream Mormon church as the great and abominable church talked about in the Book of Mormon. And they would say that because it's one of those things that, you know, these people had the truth and then they went astray. That's what we were told. We were told that the mainstream LDS church were the great and abominable church that went astray and didn't want to follow what Joseph Smith taught.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:25:22] Yeah, they were apostates. And so, I mean, kind of on that lines of almost sons of perdition because they had the truth and they let go of it. So, I mean, once it's a couple generations, they just believe that they were led by false prophets. And so not quite as much the apostates or sons of perdition, but initially when it split, all of those people that chose to follow the mainstream people were.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:25:45] We consider them apostate apostates. And the rest of the. Everyone that belonging to the church now, they would just consider them Gentiles, people that never had the full truth. And that on the other side, if they don't choose to accept it on this earth that on the other side, they would have a chance to accept the truth. That's what they would say.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:26:03] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:26:04] All right. Well, thanks for your patience with the history. I just. I get people telling me we don't know the history. You talk about this stuff like we know it already. So for those who knew the history. Sorry. For those who didn't know the history, we hope that was helpful. End of history lesson. Now to your story.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:26:19] No problem at all. So anyway, I'm trying to switch back here. I don't want to talk or mention something that I already talked about. So at the time that polygamy was put to an end, like I mentioned briefly, my grandfather was very much a part of. Of continuing on this polygamy way of life. He was thrown into prison for quite some time.
Family Roots in Early FLDS Leadership
John Dehlin [00:26:42] So in the 1890s and after.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:26:44] Exactly.
John Dehlin [00:26:45] Great grandfather.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:26:45] My great. Yes, my great grand. No, sorry, this was my. This was just my grandfather. Oh, yes.
John Dehlin [00:26:51] Okay.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:26:51] There's very long periods of when you have so many children.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:26:56] Yes. So my father now is in his 80s, so, yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:27:00] His father is older than my grandparents. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:27:03] Whoa.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:27:03] So there's a very big generation stands.
John Dehlin [00:27:07] How old are you right now?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:27:08] I'm 31.
John Dehlin [00:27:09] So it's 20. 22. You're 31 and your grandfather lived in the 1890s.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:27:14] How about that, huh? Yes. Yes.
Guest [00:27:16] So crazy.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:27:17] I know, right?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:27:18] I have. I mean, I don't. I don't want to go way off track here, but just a fun fact, I have siblings that are way. They're plenty old enough to be my. My father.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:27:29] He. He has siblings that are older than my parents are.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:27:32] Yes.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:27:33] Yeah. So.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:27:34] And then some that are still very young. So anyway, a very long range of
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:27:38] siblings on the teenagers, from older than my parents to still young teenagers is the span of his father's children.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:27:45] We had a big family.
John Dehlin [00:27:47] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:27:47] But anyway, so my grandfather was actually. I believe eventually the story. Story has it that. That he. They just kicked him out of prison, said, okay, you're obviously not a bad man. You're just trying to live the best you can. And it sounds like they just eventually said, he's not going to ever say that he doesn't believe in polygamy, so let's just let him go. So they let him go, and that was that After. I don't know exact. Do you remember how long he was in.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:28:12] I want to say it was a year. Well, it was a year when everyone else got released, and then I think he stayed for three or four more months longer, so about a year and a half in prison for it.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:28:21] Yeah. But from every story I've heard, and he wrote a lot in his journals while being in prison, and we're reading through those right now to get more information.
John Dehlin [00:28:32] You have those journals?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:28:33] We do, yes. Yes.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:28:35] One of his. Was it an aunt had actually. So he had written them in just normal, like, composition notebooks, all by hand and cursive like his entire life story. And then there's another one, but two volumes, and she actually just like, carbon copied them and put them into a hardbound book and luckily reached out and said, is anybody interested in a copy of these? Because we're going to do one printing of these. And we were like, absolutely. And so we have these beautiful hardbound copies of his journals that we're trying to read through.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:29:05] We're reading through those right now, and we'll have more information as time goes on.
John Dehlin [00:29:09] But on your polygamy, on Growing Up Polygamy podcast or YouTube channel.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:29:13] Yeah, so. But very interesting. And he, you know, from everything I've heard and everything that I've read, he was just an outstanding guy, my grandfather. So just trying to live.
John Dehlin [00:29:24] Tell us his name one last time.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:29:25] Charles Zitting.
John Dehlin [00:29:26] Charles Zitting. Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:29:28] And he, you know, was just trying to live the best he could. And he was very much involved in the. The leadership as the FLDS church began.
John Dehlin [00:29:38] Okay, so that's Charles.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:29:40] Yeah, Yep, that's him.
John Dehlin [00:29:42] Who comes after Charles?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:29:44] So after Charles, my father, also very, very well known throughout the community. Someone that was very well respected and looked up to, had very high callings in the church. Patriarch, and was also the mayor of Hildale City for a long, long time.
John Dehlin [00:30:00] Do you want to use his name or do you not want to use his name?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:30:03] Well, I don't think. I think people can probably guess at this point, if anyone's curious, because they know of us out there. But his name's David. David Zitting.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:30:11] Huh?
John Dehlin [00:30:12] David Zitting.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:30:12] Okay. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:30:13] All right. He was a patriarch.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:30:15] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:30:15] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:30:16] So he had very. That. For those of you that don't know, being a patriarch is a very, very high calling within the church. And it's one of those things that he would actually be a speaker and give talks in that. In some of the general meetings because of his calling.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:30:30] And in the flds, speaking in church is a much higher calling. It's a much bigger deal. So in the LDS Church, you know, the congregation, people get assigned randomly from the ward but in the flds they weren't randomly assigned. The speakers were always high priesthood holders. Is that correct?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:30:47] Right. Yes. There was never a general testimony meeting where someone could stand up from the audience and go share their testimony. That would have been interesting. That could have gone because so many people in the flds because it was such a high demand religion, there were some people in the audience that didn't agree with a lot of what was going on, especially once the Jeffs took over. So had they had a chance to stand up in front of everyone and bear their so called testimony, it could have gotten very interesting in those meetings. So I think that's why they only allowed people that were very high in the church to give any kind of talk over the pulpit.
John Dehlin [00:31:25] I'm going to ask this about David, but do you know how many wives and children Charles had?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:31:31] Oh my goodness. I have been told this. I believe he had four. Three or four wives, I believe.
John Dehlin [00:31:40] Okay. And any idea?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:31:42] But I don't, I don't know exactly how many children.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:31:44] I know I'm like trying to think of the family tree. I'm like, okay, it's hard to keep track of a very big tree in
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:31:49] this big, of a, of a family. It's hard to keep track of the exact numbers.
John Dehlin [00:31:53] But you need three. As I, as I understand it, you need three to reach the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. Reach that threshold.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:32:00] That's interesting because that's not something I was told growing up.
John Dehlin [00:32:04] Oh, okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:32:04] So when some people would ask me, do you need a certain number of wives to reach the highest degree of heaven? I would tell them, no, I don't think so, because I was never told that. But now some of these people that were closer with Warren Jeffs and closer with the leaders, they are saying that this is what they were told. I mean, I guess that is true.
John Dehlin [00:32:24] In most high demand religions or cults, there is kind of the secret inner knowledge that isn't shared with the outer members. Okay, how about David, your dad, the patriarch? How do you know how many wives and children?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:32:37] Oh yeah, yes, yes. Now we're, now I'm familiar. So four wives.
John Dehlin [00:32:43] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:32:43] And my mother is the second wife.
John Dehlin [00:32:47] And then how many, how many kids do you know?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:32:49] Well, so biological siblings I have. And I'll explain why I say biological. Biological siblings I have 35. But as far as full blooded from just my mother alone, there's 12 of us. But if we're going to include the fourth wife, they're not actually biologically related to me because the fourth Wife was married into the family after she was a widow, and so her children were already grown and moved out of the house and all adults before she joined our family. And so she was joined and became another mother as well. But all of her siblings, I never got super close with her children because they were already all out of the house. But if we include her children as well, there were 45.
John Dehlin [00:33:42] Okay, so 10, 10 more like non biological siblings.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:33:47] Right.
John Dehlin [00:33:47] Okay. All right, so what do you want to say? Do you know the profession? Did you, did you say what Charles Zitting's profession was?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:33:58] Oh, boy.
John Dehlin [00:33:58] You know, it's okay if you don't. I just curious if you, I, I,
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:34:01] I cannot think off top of my head what he did.
John Dehlin [00:34:04] That's fine. How about David, what was your dad's profession? And what is there anything about his childhood or adolescence or adulthood that are important parts of the story?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:34:15] Yes. So he, well, he was, he had an, he did a lot of things, I guess, growing up. He was, he owned a ranch and was in charge of running a big ranch there in Utah, Southern Utah. And he had, he had an entrepreneur type mindset. So he started a few different things over, over his younger adult life. But very early on, after join, after, I guess not joining, he was born into the church, but after he was married, very shortly after that, he became the mayor of, of Hildale, which is the Utah side of Short Creek, and did that for many, many, many, many years. Okay, that's the, oh, that's the, that's when I was born, he was already the mayor and that's all I knew. That's the only profession that I saw him do. So.
John Dehlin [00:35:05] Wow, that's a big job.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:35:06] Oh, yeah. And it was a huge job because, you know, I mean, he just had so much going on all the time. It seems like he was always in meetings. And because of his position, I felt that our family probably had a little bit more of a connection to the outside world because we would have people coming in and wanting to talk to him and interview him and, you know, and so he had that connection to the news reporters and some of the other government officials and that that would come in and talk to him.
John Dehlin [00:35:37] And you said he's how old now?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:35:38] He, oh my goodness. I don't want to get this wrong. I believe 82.
John Dehlin [00:35:43] Okay, so somebody do the math. 20. 22 minus 82. Do you know what year he was born? I just want to kind of get a sense for the year he's born.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:35:50] Oh, my goodness gracious. I should I should have my numbers.
John Dehlin [00:35:52] I'm guessing 1940, I believe.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:35:55] Yes, that sounds right.
John Dehlin [00:35:56] Okay. All right. So. Wow, that's interesting. So he was born like Pre World War II.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:36:04] It's crazy to think about. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:36:06] Yeah. Okay. So you partially answered this. In the Mormon Church, a patriarch is kind of an older person that gives patriarchal blessings, which is kind of like fortune telling for Mormons, basically. Crystal ball kind of fortune telling of what your future is going to be. You get that blessing when you're a teenager. What did it mean to be a patriarch in the FLDS Church in addition to whatever you've already told us?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:36:31] Yeah, very similar, actually. And I remember it was also done in our home. So I remember people would show up to our house and they would meet with Father and actually normally his first wife, and she was the scribe, so she would write down the blessing as he gave it, just to have record of what it was so that the person that was receiving the blessing would have a copy and. Yeah, so very, very similar because I got a patriarch, a patriarchal blessing in the LDS Church as well when I joined. And so that's.
John Dehlin [00:37:05] You've got two.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:37:05] I've got two. No, no, no. Actually, I never got one with my father. I got a lot of priesthood blessings which are a little bit different, but never a patriarchal blessing. I believe you had to be a certain age. I believe you had to be 18 years old, if I'm not mistaken.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:37:20] And he left right after he was 18.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:37:21] Yes, but very similar. All I know is people would show up to the home and they would go up into the upstairs living room and shut the doors, and then they would receive their patriarchal blessing. I was never there to witness exactly what it was or how he did it, but I assume it was very similar. It seemed like it was to the LDS Church blessings.
John Dehlin [00:37:44] So in addition to being mayor and having eventually four wives and events like 35 to 45 kids, he would give lots of patriarchal blessings.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:37:54] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:37:54] And that was viewed as a. I. I guess. Can you describe what the organization of the FLDS Church would have been prior to Warren, when your dad David was kind of growing up flds. What the structure pre Warren? Like. Like in the LDS Church, there's a. A prophet, a first presidency of two counselors in the prophet, and then a quorum of the twelve apostles.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:38:17] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:38:18] And a presiding bishop. And a presiding bishop, Brick and a bunch of 70s. What was your. The organization prior to Warren?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:38:26] So that you know of? Prior to Warren. That I know of. There was the prophet the leader of the church and there were his counselors.
John Dehlin [00:38:34] Do you remember who the prophets would have been prior to Warren? As far back as you can.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:38:38] Well, before Warren it was his father ruling Jeffs. Before Ruthen Jeffs it was Roy Johnson. Before him it was John Y. Barlow. Before him it was. I believe. I hope I'm not forgetting someone. Lauren Woolley. And before him John Woolley. And I believe John Woolley was the first prophet of the FLDS church.
John Dehlin [00:39:01] That was really good.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:39:03] I hope I didn't forget anyone.
John Dehlin [00:39:05] We have a song that helps us remember our prophecy.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:39:08] I always sing it too. Every time I'm going through throwing it on Taylor can throw.
John Dehlin [00:39:14] Okay, that's okay. So you're, you're. Your dad would have known most of those prophets personally.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:39:22] I believe he knew when he was young. I believe he grew up with John Y. Barlow being the prophet. And then he had most of his really good experiences growing up was with Roy Johnson as the prophet. He cannot say enough good about him. He just goes on and on and on about how he was the most amazing man. And it's. From everything I hear, it seems like if you talk to other people throughout the community that were around during that time, everyone only has good to say about Roy Johnson seemed like a very, very good guy. When the Jeffs took over, even Rulin Jeffs before Warren Jeffs, it seemed like things started to have a little bit of a shift.
Guest [00:40:03] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:40:03] Yes, you could say.
John Dehlin [00:40:04] Yeah. Because like even my intent in doing these episodes isn't to shame non monogamy. You know, there are lots of people that figure out ways to live their life and maybe it's even theoretically possible for there to be ethical. Well, of course there's ethical non monogamy, but maybe there's even. I don't even know if polygamy can be ethical. But. But it. I. I like to think that there can be just people who are just faithful, believing people who are honest and moral and kind and good people. And this just. They're just sincerely following their beliefs.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:40:37] And I would say the same about my father and my mother a hundred percent. They're just trying to do the best they can, live the best lives they can. I don't think they have ever had a bad intention on as far as leading us astray or trying to convince us of something that they didn't fully believe. I believe that was. They've only tried to live the best they could with what they were given.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:40:56] Yeah, absolutely.
Sam's Father as Mayor and Patriarch
John Dehlin [00:40:57] So, okay, so David is mayor and patriarch. Anything else you want to say about his life that will help us understand your story better prior to your birth, or do we cover the most important.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:41:12] I think we covered most of it. I will just say that he gave up everything for the church. He had businesses that he had started, lots, lots of things going for him. But when the leader of the church snapped their fingers and said, okay, this is where we need you, he said, okay, very faithful, Very, very, very faithful. Would give up anything for the church. And he, I mean, growing up in my younger years, we lived in a double wide trailer home with a lot of, a lot of family, you know, so it's one of those things that just goes to prove that, hey, you know, if this is where you want me, regardless of the living conditions, I'll be there. And it wasn't until later on, about maybe 9 or 10 years old, that we moved into a bigger home. So when I was 9 or 10
John Dehlin [00:41:56] years old, I'm just remembering one of my favorite hymns. Growing up lds. I'll go where you want me to go, Dear Lord. I'll say what you want me to say. I'll be, you know, I'll do what you want me to do. I'll be what you want me to be.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:42:08] Yeah, absolutely. And they really lived that like, so there's not many times I feel like, because growing up lds, that was the same thing, you know, you hear those. But I feel like the things that we were asked to do now never felt as extreme. Right. You look at the FLDS and you're like, they were asked to do so much that it makes the things that I was asked to do as LDS look not like that big of a deal, you know, but.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:42:31] But if you go back to the early days of the church, they were asked to give up a lot.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:42:36] That's true.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:42:37] And to do a lot of things. And, and the FLDS church believe, or at least the members. I don't know about Warren. We will get into him later. But as far as the members that are faithful members of the FLDS church, they looked at their experience as we know this is true because we're going through the same persecution, we're dealing with the same things that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had to deal with. It's obvious that it's true because Satan is trying to attack us just like he did back in those days. Right. And now they've thrown our prophet into prison. See, just like, just like Joseph Smith.
John Dehlin [00:43:13] It's a fulfillment of prophecy.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:43:14] Exactly.
Growing Up in a Polygamous Household
John Dehlin [00:43:15] Okay, so you said you were born to the second wife. Do you Want to talk about where you are in the birth order and what year. What year were you. You were born?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:43:24] I was born in 1991. Sorry. That was when my wife was born. I was born in 1990. And my. I was right in the middle of. Of her chill. Of my mom. Mother's children. I say mother just in case everyone's wondering, because growing up in the flds, we were not allowed to use the names dad and mom. That was never allowed.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:43:47] Disrespectful.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:43:48] It was considered disrespectful. So we had to say father and mother. And for the other mothers that were not our biological mother, we would call them mother and then their first name. So let's say their name was Diana. You would say mother Diana, or. And. But if it. For our. For our mother, we would just say mother.
John Dehlin [00:44:08] So, okay, so you refer to the sister, I guess, is sister wise? Is that. Was that a. Was that an okay term to.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:44:16] Yes, it was. It seemed like it was okay.
John Dehlin [00:44:18] So for those who don't know, sister, wife means what?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:44:22] So another. So another wife to the. To the same man. So, for example, I mean, my father had four wives, and so there were four sister wives that would. I'm trying to remember. I don't know that they would refer to themselves as sister wives or if they would just refer to them as the other mothers of the family, because that's how it was. We weren't in, like, some other polygamous groups you'll see on tv, all the mothers have their own home. But no, we all lived in the same house under the same roof. We all grew up together, all the mothers, all the children. So, I mean, I was probably just as close, if not closer to some of the children from another mother because they were closer to my age growing up. So it was all just one big family.
John Dehlin [00:45:06] So when you were born, how many siblings had already been born in total? Do you even know? Like, 20. At least.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:45:13] least.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:45:14] Yeah. He's got to be. You got to be in the middle.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:45:16] I'm right in the. I'm in the middle everywhere you look at it. I'm in the middle of all of the siblings. I'm in the middle of my mothers, you know, and my mother is the middle wife. I'm in the middle everywhere.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:45:27] And his mother, being the second wife, was married 15 years after the first wife. So father and his first wife had a lot of children before he even married Sam's mother, who then started having children, and his mother and the third wife got married a lot Closer in gap. So there's a lot of the same age children. Like some of his half brothers are like three months apart from him, and they're like really close together because those two mothers were having children at the same time. Where the first wife had had a lot of children, she had all of
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:45:58] her children before I was born, before,
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:46:00] you know, the second wife even started really starting their family.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:46:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:46:05] So your dad David had already married three times before you were born.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:46:09] Correct.
John Dehlin [00:46:10] So you were born with three moms.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:46:12] Basically grew up in the home. And I didn't think anything of it. It seemed perfectly normal and natural to me.
John Dehlin [00:46:17] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:46:18] Yeah. I mean, there were some of the. One of the moms you'd have to watch out for. She was a little more strict. Right. So we would kind of pick and choose which mom we were going to ask to get away with something because we knew which one would be more lenient. Most of the moms would just say, ask father. Father had the final say no matter what.
John Dehlin [00:46:38] Okay.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:46:38] And when the fourth mother came, all the boys were excited because they thought maybe there was a new mother that they could get away with more from.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:46:46] You know, we thought that. I remember very, very vividly. We were still living in our double wide trailer home, and we were waiting for the fourth mother to show up because we knew that father had gone to be married to his fourth wife. And so we were just waiting. Okay, who's it going to be? We had no idea. We were hoping that it was going to be some very young girl that would be able to. That we could go to and get away with anything because she would be a mother. She could give us permission for things. So we're hoping that she'd be a young girl that would say, sure, do whatever you want and not be too strict. But as we.
John Dehlin [00:47:22] Jen, why are you smiling? Why are you smiling?
Guest [00:47:23] I. I'm just still stuck on. You were all in a double wide trailer.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:47:29] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:47:29] Yes.
Guest [00:47:29] Like, I'm still stuck on your first sentence.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:47:31] Well, there were three wives, and then they're gonna add another and like 20 something at least.
Guest [00:47:36] Right.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:47:36] Kids, they're in the 20s that were there at a time because some were older and we get married. Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:47:42] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:47:42] And I will say. I should. I will say that the. There was a double wide trailer, was the main home. And then we did have a single wide trailer right next to it that was kind of a workshop and did have two bedrooms. So some of the family lived there as well.
Guest [00:47:56] That's better.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:47:59] It's a little bit of an Addition. Right. So anyway, I forget where we were.
John Dehlin [00:48:05] Let me. I want to give a disclaimer first. Like, whenever we're talking about. I learned this a lot talking to transgender individuals, that there are. There. There are ways you can exoticize and even exploit people, and there are common stereotypical questions that get asked that can be perceived as really rude or offensive or exploitative. And that's. That's never the spirit with which I want to do these interviews.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:48:34] Right.
John Dehlin [00:48:35] But I know that. That just like with the transgender community, with the polygamous community, there, there are questions around, like, living arrangements, around bedrooms, around beds, around sex, that are highly offensive. So I want to start by saying I don't want to talk about anything. I don't want to exploit you. I don't want to be disrespectful to you or your people. And so I just want to kind of set that tone and. And disclaimer, and I'll just say, of course, you know, there are certain types of questions that typically get asked around living arrangements. And so maybe that's a general way. I'll say, are there. And this is to educate people so they can be more respectful. Are there questions that get asked that are off limits or highly offensive around living arrangements? Or. And. Or are there. Are there things that are actually, from your perspective. Okay. To talk about? And I'm just going to kind of leave that general question there out of respect and then let you talk about all the things you imagine I'm talking about.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:49:46] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:49:47] Does that make sense?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:49:48] Yes. And thank you for being respectful. But really quick, I'll just finish. I remember what I was in the middle of saying, and I'll just finish this, and then I'll jump right into that question. We were all, as young girls and boys, looking out the window, waiting for the fourth mom to show up, and we didn't. We couldn't actually. Even when. When father pulled up, we couldn't see. We're like, who? No one's. No one's in the car. And she's a very short lady, pure white hair. And we were just like, oh, no, we're not going to get away with anything. So just a very. Anyway. But she turned out to be one of the best additions to the family. She was a very lovely lady, and we loved having her. So.
John Dehlin [00:50:27] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:50:29] But as far as sleeping arrangements and all of that, that's a very common question, as you can imagine. Why. And luckily for me, I don't have a whole ton of information, so there's not a whole lot of disrespectful things that I could talk about. Because I don't. I have, I've. You know, there were rumors and people would say, this is what I saw, this is what I heard, or whatever. But me personally, I'll speak from my personal experience. It didn't seem that odd growing up in it, but it was never talked about. It was very, very hush hush. Everything sexual was just off the table. We couldn't ask about it, you know, it wasn't something that anyone would ever talk about. So it was just, I don't know, it was never anything that I really cared too much about growing up out there. All I know is that in the home each mother had her own room and father had his room. Obviously there's a lot of children, so they got together at some point, but I don't know exactly how those arrangements worked. And a lot of the mothers would have their infants staying in the same room with them. And then once they got a little bit older, there were boys rooms, there were girls rooms, there were younger boys rooms, younger girls rooms. And we were kind of split up that way throughout the house.
John Dehlin [00:51:47] Beautiful. That makes sense. So I can imagine, I'm trying to think of like these cabins, you know, in Heber, wherever, where like all the cousins all sleep together in one big room. I'm imagining something like that for the kids, huh?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:52:03] Yes. A lot of us, beds, like. Yeah, bunk beds was a very, very common thing when you as a younger boy. That's what it was. It was just a room with a bunch of bunk beds in it and kind of put as many in there as you could for sleeping. And once you got a little bit older in your teenage years, then you would advance to the older boy's room, at least speaking from my personal experience. And then oftentimes we would have our own bed, you know, no more bunk bed. Had our own bed. And so you'd have to share.
John Dehlin [00:52:35] Sometimes as a kid you would share beds with other kids.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:52:39] What I refer to by your own bed is it wasn't a bunk bed, but generally speaking, we had our own twin size mattress. Mattress, exactly. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:52:47] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:52:48] So. But it was, you know, it just made sense. It was to me growing up, it was. We kind of kept everyone in the same age group the best we could and then obviously separated the boys and girls. Boys and girls weren't really allowed to do much together at all growing up. They didn't want us to really play that much together or work together. We kind of had separate chores and I, you know, My sisters, even in the house, they were always fully clothed and from wrist to ankle. And us boys were expected to dress that way as well. Even our pajamas, we were completely covered wrist to ankle.
John Dehlin [00:53:28] Talk about that.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:53:30] Yeah, yeah. So basically the dress or the uniform code, I guess you could say was for the guys, a button up shirt, long sleeve buttoned up shirt always should be tucked in. If you want to get on your parents good side, do up the top button and then pants.
John Dehlin [00:53:51] Seriously?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:53:51] Yes.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:53:52] Yeah, serious.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:53:52] Seriously. Yeah. I mean, my parents would have loved it if I had walked around with my top button done up all the time.
John Dehlin [00:53:58] So was it viewed a tiny bit as rebellion to have your top but top button unbuttoned or that.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:54:03] That was one of the things that was okay. It was, it was okay to have your top button undone. I think that because a lot of the leaders would also undo their top button just for comfort reasons.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:54:13] Wow.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:54:13] Right. But if you roll up your sleeves now. Oh boy.
John Dehlin [00:54:16] Really?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:54:17] Do not roll up your sleeves.
John Dehlin [00:54:19] They want as a man, boy or as a woman or girl, anything.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:54:24] Well, I mean, the women's sleeves normally had like cuffs on the bottom of their dresses anyway around their wrists, so they wouldn't really be able to roll it up. But the men's like dress shirts like this show your. That would be a big no, no,
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:54:37] that would not be allowed down and not even undo the button. Do the button up, no undone button. And yes, this was also expected of us while working in Southern Utah. Southern Utah heat outside. We never were able to wear short sleeves or shorts or any of that type of thing.
Guest [00:54:57] Wow.
John Dehlin [00:54:57] I, I didn't know this.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:54:59] Yes. Very strict dress code.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:55:01] And part of that reason was. Do you want to talk a little bit about the garments?
Religious Practices, Dress, and Daily Rules
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:55:06] Yes, sure. So we had an undergarment that we would wear. And I, if I'm not mistaken, I believe we all started wearing them at age 8 after being baptized.
John Dehlin [00:55:14] You started wearing what?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:55:16] An undergarment. We call them garments.
John Dehlin [00:55:19] And was it, was it religious?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:55:21] Yes, yes. Oh, I didn't know that it was actually. So if I don't know how familiar your viewers are with LDS garments, but just as a little bit of a comparison and history that I learned as we were looking into this together, but when Joseph Smith originally received revelation of what the garment should look like, it did go wrist all the way to your ankles. And the FLDS kept the original garment that Joseph Smith had restored and had a revelation of how it was supposed to be. So while the LDS garment continued to kind of progress and change through Time and through different styles. The FLDS kept it in its purity as, as what it was. And instead of a temple garment, it was something that once you were baptized, you received it.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:56:09] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:56:09] Okay, I'm already, I'm confused.
Guest [00:56:11] Did not know that.
John Dehlin [00:56:12] Yeah, yeah. So in the Mormon Church, you don't start wearing your garments until you are a young adult. When you go through the temple and you take out your endowment and at the temple that's when you swear the oaths, get your new name, learn the science tokens and in my case, the penalties. And you're, you're, you're. They do your washings and anointings in the temple with oil while you're almost naked. And then they put on a garment that has Masonic symbols on it. A square and a compass and a, I guess a ruler. And then on, on the bottom parts, there's, there's a line on your navel and then a little sewn in line right above your knee. And that's what the garments are in the LDS Church and that's when you get them. And of course they're short sleeve now and they're like biker shorts for men and women. Well, that's its own episode. We've talked about that. So did, was there an endowment for kids? Was there a temple ceremony for kids? Were there markings on the kids garments and were they the same markings?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:57:25] So really the, I guess you could say the ritual that was done to then receive your garments was, I guess you would say baptism. And there were no markings. It was just a white garment that was, that would completely cover your body from your neck to your ankles to your wrists. And because of that undergarment, it was necessary to wear your long jeans or slacks and button up shirts and all of that just to cover your garments. Same thing with your pajamas. You had to make sure your garments were covered, but there were no markings on them at all.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:58:01] And it was also just. Again, for any LDS viewers, it also was not a replacement for underwear. They would still wear underwear, regular underwear.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:58:10] Over top.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:58:11] Over top of their.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:58:12] Because there was obviously a cutout for going to the bathroom.
John Dehlin [00:58:16] I had no idea.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:58:18] Many people don't.
Guest [00:58:19] It's actually, I never heard that.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:58:20] Yeah, many people don't know about that. But let me tell you, the first time I took that off and went with regular clothes on, I felt like I was naked, you know, without those garments on. Because I was raised. It's not something you get when you're an adult. You're raised that way.
John Dehlin [00:58:34] And what are you told as you're an 8 year old getting baptized. What are you told the garments mean?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:58:42] A symbol of your righteousness and willingness to follow God.
John Dehlin [00:58:47] Are you taught that they have special powers to protect you?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:58:52] You know, we were always taught that it was important to obey commandments, important to obey our leaders and all of those things. And the garment was just a piece of that obedience. So it wasn't necessarily, you're going to have superpowers if you wear these, but it was just overall, this is a part of being obedient. If you're obedient, you'll be protected. So I don't remember any specific promises with the garment other than just it was required.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:59:22] And for the women, it was a big sign of modesty as well. Again, it helped you remain. It helped you remain modest. You know, from his sisters that have told me about it and, and they said, yeah, it's just, it's another way like that has to be covered. So then you avoid the rolling up of sleeves or making sure that your ankles are showing, like all those type of things. It just created a very standard modesty standard as well, by having it from a very young age that those couldn't be shown. And so whatever you wore, you know, even with the full prairie dresses, they would wear leggings underneath and then they would wear socks to go up.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:59:58] A lot of them would, A lot of them would wear ride horses, ride bikes, that type of thing. So if their dress was flying up, they would have a pair of leggings or something underneath.
John Dehlin [01:00:07] So like four layers. Like there's garments, underwear, leggings, and then
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:00:11] a blouse and slips. So for the women, then they would have. So they'd have their garments, they'd have underwear, then they would wear slips, and then they would wear their dresses.
John Dehlin [01:00:20] Wow.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:00:21] You know, speaking of their dress code, I had a. This wasn't really allowed in my family, so I'm happy for the other family that was able to do this. But I recently spoke with somebody that I met and when they realized where I was from, they said no way. So you'd be familiar with this type of thing, I guess. They were at Lake Powell, a big lake here in southern Utah, and they. I guess they're in southern Utah. I'm no longer in southern Utah. And they were at the lake boating, and they saw this boat just flying across the lake and someone on. What's the jet?
Guest [01:00:54] Water skis.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:00:55] Water skis behind the boat, just cruising behind this boat, water skiing. And they had their big prairie dress just flying up in the air. Behind them, their braided hair, the poof on their head, and they're just going down the lake behind the boat. So even for water, any type of activity, we were never allowed to get into any type of swimsuit or that type of thing.
John Dehlin [01:01:14] So swimsuits were forbidden?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:01:16] Oh, yes.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:01:16] Yeah. They weren't allowed to go into the water because Satan controls the waters.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:01:20] Any big bodies of water. We were allowed to play in small bodies of water. And when doing so, I wore my jeans and button up shirt.
John Dehlin [01:01:28] So this, this woman, jet skiing was breaking the rules, but still wearing the
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:01:33] shirt, she would have had to been breaking some kind of rule. I don't know though, because here's something that I learned as I got older. There were families that were a lot less strict than my family that would take the rules in Hildale. In. In Hildale, yes.
John Dehlin [01:01:46] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:01:46] And also some that were in Canada and some that were in Salt Lake.
John Dehlin [01:01:50] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:01:50] And they would sometimes be a little bit more lenient when it came to the rules of the church.
John Dehlin [01:01:55] Like unbutton their top button maybe? Sometimes, yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:01:58] Or roll their sleeves up.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:01:59] I feel like it's very similar to the LDs in that sense that, you know, in certain families it was like no short shorts, no tank tops. And then some families you can, could wear, you know, a tank top in the summertime or short shorts. And it wasn't as big of a deal. It was more of a family by family matter. There are definitely rules in the FLDS that were a family by family matter.
John Dehlin [01:02:18] I'll just, I'll just say that, you know, religion is often counterintuitive. In religion devotion. Religious devotion is often counterintuitive. Sociologists have shown. Sometimes you think, well, if the church will become more relaxed, then the members would be more devout and loyal because the rules would be perceived as just suffocating. And if you, if you loosen up the rules, then you'll get more devoted members and people will say, why can't the current LDS Church just let people drink coffee, like let them drink beer. Then, then more people will stay. But the truth is, sociologists have demonstrated the opposite is true. The more demanding the church is, the more allegiance the church elicits from its members. So by being super strict and controlling, that made you all more committed than regular LDS Church members probably are?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:03:19] Well, 100%. And for several reasons, one just being the fact. Okay, well, every, every aspect of our life was determined. Everything and everything the church owned. So we felt like the church owned us and we had to abide by the rules. But secondly, it was. They would keep us from a lot of the outside world. So a lot of the normal information you can go out there and find was not available to us. So, you know, that that was another thing that they would control, that we weren't allowed to see media and news and that type of thing.
John Dehlin [01:03:53] Yeah. And we can talk about the bite model, but we'll hold off on that until later. Okay. So growing up as the number. Number what kid in.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:04:05] I would have had to been right around 20.
John Dehlin [01:04:08] But with yours, with your mom, who
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:04:09] is the second wife, I would have been number six.
John Dehlin [01:04:12] Okay. You were number six of 10.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:04:16] Of 12.
John Dehlin [01:04:17] Of 12. But then. But then of total, you were what number?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:04:23] I believe around 20.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:04:25] Right around. I'm trying to remember if it was 19 or 21, but right in that number.
John Dehlin [01:04:29] So talk about. Yeah. What your family life was like and what your religious and spiritual life was like as a fundamentalist Mormon. Yeah. Lds, definitely. L. FLDS kid.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:04:43] Yeah. So like many would probably say before Warren Jeffs and before his. Before Warren's dad had a stroke.
John Dehlin [01:04:52] And that year would have been around what year?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:04:54] So about 2000. And right around 2000. 2001 is when things were starting to change a little bit because.
John Dehlin [01:05:04] So you would have been 10 or 11 when Warren. When things started to change. So you had a good 10 years pre. Warren Jepses significant influence.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:05:13] Exactly. Well, he started to have some influence because his dad started to get sick and he started to have. Or he. He stood up and basically said, I'm speaking for my dad, and this is what he wants me to do. And so he started speaking for his dad pretty early on.
John Dehlin [01:05:29] But Rulin was the prophet when you were born.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:05:32] Correct.
John Dehlin [01:05:32] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:05:33] And was for several years.
John Dehlin [01:05:34] So for those first 10 years, what was growing up FLDS.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:05:37] It was awesome.
John Dehlin [01:05:38] Really.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:05:38] It was. It was.
John Dehlin [01:05:39] Talk about how awesome it was.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:05:41] Yeah. So. Well, first of all, I had a lot of siblings around growing up, lot to do, a lot of friends to play with, I guess you could say that were there with me, growing up with me, going through the same experience. Our backyard was the mountains. We lived in a very remote place that we were allowed to go out and roam freely for the most part until we got caught and sent back home. But we were allowed to go and play and build rock forts on the mountain and, you know, ride our bikes around town. And it was a very. Seemed like a very tight community. Everyone knew each other, and it was just a really. I felt like a very good childhood. Father would try hard to take us on Trips, camping trips, picnic trips, up to places around nearby like Cedar Mountain and Pine Valley Mountain, which are mountains not too far from St. George, Utah. So it seemed like he tried hard to give us a good life, even though he had so many children. It was very rare that we would all get to go at the same time. But he did make sure that at least once a year we all got together, not only our immediate family, but also some extended family. And we did this celebration picnic day on Pine Valley Mountain. And it was to celebrate his birthday. But it was something that was put on every year that we were all allowed to get together and have a great time.
John Dehlin [01:07:10] You wouldn't do that for each of the moms or sister wives, right? No, just his birthday.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:07:15] Yes. And I don't know if that was. I don't know where that came from, if it was something that he decided or if it was something that the mother said. Hey, we want to do this each year. That I can't say I don't. It was already happening when I was born, so I'm not sure how it started. I was just happy to go be. Be there for the ride. So.
John Dehlin [01:07:32] So one fringe benefit was having lots of siblings you could play with. That would be fun.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:07:37] And the area that we lived in was fun. You know, I mean, we had a creek that ran through town. We would spend a lot of time playing in that. And mountains.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:07:46] Very.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:07:46] We had a great time. A lot of outdoor activity that we were allowed to do.
John Dehlin [01:07:50] How did. Like, it's super hot down there. Like, we mentioned the four or five layers, but that's also living in 100 to 120 degree weather. Am I wrong?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:08:00] Well, in. On the border where we grew up, it was a little cooler than you would find in St. George, Utah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:08:06] Okay. So kind of went up into the.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:08:07] You go up the mountain a little ways, but it still got, you know, in the, in the 90s and low hundreds during the summer. So, you know, it definitely got hot. And also we got some snow during the winter time.
John Dehlin [01:08:19] Okay. Okay. So it wasn't quite St. George.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:08:22] No, not quite.
John Dehlin [01:08:24] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:08:24] However, just a quick, you know, insight to that heat we dealt with. We worked a lot in St. George once, once we got older as young men, we would go and work on construction sites in this 120 degree weather and we kept that same clothing.
John Dehlin [01:08:40] So tell people where Hilldale or Colorado City are relative to St. George. Just for people who don't know the geography.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:08:46] Yes. So it is southeast about 45 minutes. And if you go through Hurricane Utah, or as it's called, Hurricane. If you're, if you're local and you go through Hurricane, Utah and up the mountain towards the east and head southeast, you take the. Oh my goodness, I'm forgetting the main highway there. Is it the 50? I don't remember the highway there. It's been a while. But anyway, you take that road towards Lake Powell and you'll go through the small town of Shore Creek.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:09:18] They're right on the backside of Zion National Park. So, like, if you go from, you know, if you hike up the mountains where he grew up as a kid, you would literally come up over those mountains into Zion National Park. So it's really beautiful.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:09:31] Yes.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:09:31] You have all those mountains.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:09:32] Yeah. You have the backside of Zion there. It's very beautiful. I know of some hikers that would make that hike from Zion over into Short Creek. And it's not an easy hike, but it's definitely something that can be done. And there were natural springs there, you know, so there's. It's got a lot. It's a very nice and good place to live, you know, I mean, it's very remote, but it's very beautiful.
John Dehlin [01:09:53] Okay, that's helpful. I've driven, I think I've only driven through one time and I didn't stop, I just drove through. So I remember seeing it.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:10:02] Had you heard much about the. I'm curious because a lot of people heard a lot of negative about the community that say, you know, don't stop, just keep going. There's people in their trucks and guns and things.
John Dehlin [01:10:13] Yeah, yeah. What I would have. So what I would have heard, I wouldn't have heard of this. Growing up in Texas in the 80s as an Orthodox Mormon, I wouldn't have even known much of the FLDS church at all growing up. But once I went to BYU and lived there long enough, I would have heard of the FLDS church. And once I started paying attention to it, my. I would have been told lots of Amish looking people, weird hairdos. And I don't mean to be disrespectful. This is how it would have been communicated to me. Poofy women, poofy, weird hairdos with, with long dresses, looking like pioneers. Yeah. That if you, if you went into town, people would follow you, they would intimidate you, threaten you. That was kind of really secretive and scary to go there. And then also you would hear that for tax reasons, no one would ever actually complete their homes, that they would leave their homes partially unfinished because then they would somehow avoid taxes. By never actually completing their homes. So there was an impression that it was kind of dilapidated, rundown, scary police state. Now, I don't know how much of that I was influenced by Warren Jeffs or if that. If my memories of being taught those things would have also predated Warren Jeffs, but. And I feel bad saying those things to you, but that. That, you know, and I'm a little bit resentful. I'll just be candid here. I'm a little bit resentful at how the Mormon Church has kind of, like, spoken ill of your people and tried to distance itself from your people. So I've. Part of why I like to talk about this stuff now is to try and atone for some of that, because I don't think all those negative things are fair or kind.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:12:15] Right. Huh.
John Dehlin [01:12:16] So I feel bad.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:12:17] Yeah. Well, thank those things. Thank you. No, and you're just fine. Honestly, that's kind of the way that all the public saw. That's what they were told. So what do you expect? Right. And. And there were. I mean, this did predate Warren Jeffs as well. So it's not one of those things that, you know, I'm not shocked to hear it, honestly. And some of the things were true, right? Some of the things you heard were true. Very secretive, very. No one really wanted to talk to the outsiders. There were, I guess they were called the God Squad, or some of the security people would drive their trucks around, and if an outsider pulled in, I was never a part of that, but I did hear of guys driving around and being a part of this security, I guess you could say.
John Dehlin [01:13:03] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:13:03] And so it was something that happened. From my knowledge, they were never intending on hurting anybody, but more just to intimidate them, to kind of scare them out of the town so they didn't feel welcome.
John Dehlin [01:13:15] That makes sense. That makes sense.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:13:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:13:16] Okay. Okay. So, you know, that's kind of the perception that many of many of us had, But I love hearing that for you, it was just this beautiful, idyllic childhood.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:13:30] Right.
John Dehlin [01:13:32] If you don't mind, let's talk a little bit more about that. I'm curious to know what your relationship was like with your mom, because she had a lot of kids herself, but then I'm guessing each other, sister, wife, helps with all the children. So can you talk about your relationship with your mom, your relationship with your, you know, sister wives? I remember Ann Wild saying things like, hey, you get more moms. Like, what's wrong with more moms? It's more love. It's more moms, it's more siblings. You know, what's not to like? So, yeah, talk about your relationship with your mom, your relationship with your other moms.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:14:15] Yeah, no, it was very, like I say, one big family, one big happy family. I guess you could say everyone was involved. And so not only did we have all of the moms taking care of us and helping out with the children, but also I had a lot of older siblings that were also there and helping out. And one of my older sisters from my father's first wife was actually a big part of raising me as a young child, as a, as an infant and toddler.
John Dehlin [01:14:46] Oh, so siblings can also play the role as parent a little bit.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:14:50] Exactly. Especially the older sisters, they had a big part of that and it was very common for the older siblings to pitch in and help out and so. Yeah. But as far as my relationship with my mother, it was always very clear who belonged to who. As far as I knew from the moment I remember which mother I belonged to, there was never a big. Everyone's kind of jumbled in together and nobody knows who's who. It was pretty clear. So that was, you know, that was nice. I think, I know that later on things got a lot more hectic and crazy, but my very young years, things were very good. I did have a relationship with my mother. She would make sure to take time aside to meet with me and spend one on one time with me. We would even go shopping sometimes together. One fond memory I have of my mother is she would take me, just me. And sometimes we would go and get a cantaloupe from the store and some vanilla ice cream and we would cut the cantaloupe in half, put a scoop of ice cream after taking the pits out, and we would just sit at a park and eat the cantaloupe and vanilla ice cream together and just have a, have a one on one experience together. So that was very nice. And looking back on how much she had going on, I, I'm very thankful that she was able to do that and take that time out of her. Her day.
John Dehlin [01:16:19] Yeah. Okay. And I, you know, when I'm thinking about what Ann Wilde basically said, like, were you able to get close to your other moms and did you even have like a, a strong emotional connection with them or was it mostly just with your, your main mom?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:16:36] Yeah, we, we did. I felt like we had a good connection with all of the moms. The, our personal, our biological mom was. We had a stronger connection with her. I guess I should Speak for myself, I believe it was the same for all of the other, my other siblings. But you know, there was the, I mean my mother would take just her kids alone and meet with us all in her bedroom. And she was a very, very strict, she was all in 1000%. So she would take us aside and make sure her children were following the rules exactly. And we need to make sure we're following what father says and just, you know, she was very, very strict and wanted us to all be perfect children. So she would, because of all the attention she gave us, I definitely had a stronger connection with her. But all of the mothers were in our day to day lives, we were very much involved and had a very strong connection with all of them. I would say I want to talk
John Dehlin [01:17:37] about those relationships between the moms wives, but how, how much time do you remember spending with your dad growing up? One on one, if at all?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:17:48] Yeah, see that's a different story. So he was, To spend time with him normally meant you were in trouble for something. So as far as one on one time, he did try to go out of his way to make sure that he was there for family events and some family vacations and family morning and evening scripture study and prayer. So we saw him around a lot, but it wasn't much of a one on one relationship with him. It was more of a, you looked at him as a leader figure, not so much as a daddy, if that makes sense.
John Dehlin [01:18:30] Oh, now that makes me a little sad because I'm thinking about like I've made lots of mistakes as a dad, but if I, I look at the ability to have emotional relationships with my four kids and almost like friendships is probably one of the most important things I do. That's not to say the way I do, it's better than the way it was done. But it makes me sad for you and it also makes me sad for your dad.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:18:56] Right. And I mean, who knows, he, maybe he would have done things completely different had he had his own way and had he not been raised a certain way and had he not had so many children. Right. I mean you can imagine how difficult that would be to have that one on one time with all of your children, having so many in the home, also having such a difficult and high demanding job. So you know, he was always doing something for the, for the church or something for the city that he was the mayor of. And so you know, he had a lot going on, so I can't necessarily blame him. But, but the circumstances were just, that's the way they were. And it's a system. Exactly. Who knows what he could have or wished he could have done differently? I can't speak for him.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:19:45] And I do have to say, too, that when Sam and I first met, because of that type of relationship, it's always been super, super important for him to be super close to our children. And it was a reason that we wanted a little bit smaller of a family than what a typical Aaliyah's family would look like. And it was super important for him to have a super close relationship. And he's an amazing father.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:20:07] Oh, thank you.
John Dehlin [01:20:10] So in terms of, like, these moments that a father son might have where he gives wisdom one on one or encouragement or even anything, do you. Do you have memories like that with your dad?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:20:23] Not. Not one on one. It was more of a family setting where he would teach us and try to give us advice and that type of thing. Like I say, most of the one on one experience I had with him was because I did something I wasn't supposed to do. So then I got sent to. Got sent to the office to get into trouble. So that was.
John Dehlin [01:20:43] That's really. That's really all you.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:20:45] That was the. The bulk of the one on one.
John Dehlin [01:20:47] Oh, that makes me kind of sad. I'm not trying to impose that on you. But again, if my only one on one memories of my dad were getting in trouble, or if my only memories with. If my kids only memories with me were getting in trouble, I would feel sad about that.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:21:04] And, you know, I wonder. I mean, I look back sometimes and wonder, you know, maybe I should have tried harder to have that. To have that connection. Maybe if I had randomly knocked on his door more often, maybe he would have been accepting and invited me in and love to have that conversation. But because of the structure of the FLDS church, we looked at our father as a leader, dictator, not necessarily a buddy that we could go hang out with. Right. Because of the way the church was. So I never felt like I could go and do that, you know, and so it was just one of those things where it was the way it was and we just tried to stick together as siblings, the. And, you know, get advice from each other, maybe go to our older siblings if we wanted to know something.
John Dehlin [01:21:53] Yeah, I mean, that's offset by how many moms you have and how many older and younger siblings you have. Like, I'm sure they're like. Like, you started with. You lose some things with your dad and maybe your mom, but then you gain a lot too. So I Don't mean to paint it all is all sad. Right, Right.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:22:14] Yeah. No, I, I mean, growing up, I didn't feel. I mean, people are very resilient and, you know, depending on the situation, everyone has a story and sometimes, you know, you just learn to deal with it. Right. And I, I know there's a lot of people out there that have a much worse situation than I do with my family. And so I was just grateful for the, you know, try to focus on the positive things. Right. I, I didn't realize how unique it was until I moved out. And then I look back and said, whoa, that was an interesting childhood. Right, right. But growing up, I thought, you know, I was like every kid. I was very afraid of something happening to my parents and I was, you know, single as far as I could tell. I had a great relationship based on what I was given.
Child Labor, Wages, and Community Economics
John Dehlin [01:23:03] What were the rules in the home, what were the things you had to do as a kid and what were the things you weren't supposed to do as a kid?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:23:11] Oh, man, I don't know if you want to list that long as to things they weren't supposed to do.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:23:14] Let's just tell you what I was allowed to do and leave now. The list of what we weren't allowed to do is a little longer, but what we were allowed to do was, well, we had homeschool, so that was something that we had. It wasn't something that was put as a top priority, but it was there for us as young children growing up, homeschooling. But it was just mostly with family. You know, we didn't really have a whole lot of other extended family or friends that were involved in that. We were allowed to go out and work at a very young age, which, because that's what all my older brothers were doing, that's kind of what I wanted to do. That was, that seemed to be the priority and kind of what everyone aspired to do was to just get out and work. So that's what I wanted to do
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:24:04] as a very, A very young age.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:24:06] Yeah, I, I grew up. I, I grew tall very quickly and so I came. Came off as an 18 year old when I was about, you know, 14 or 13. So I was able to get out there on these job sites pretty, pretty early on.
John Dehlin [01:24:19] What job sites?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:24:21] Construction.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:24:21] Construction job sites.
John Dehlin [01:24:23] Okay. Talk about construction culture in flds, families and communities.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:24:28] It was the number one thing that we knew how to do and the number one thing, it was our moneymaker, I guess you could say most everyone, if you didn't have some type of job within the community, like my father, the mayor. Then you were typically in construction of some kind or another. So I did a. I jumped around a little bit. I did framing, I did masonry work, I did flooring, and I did, I don't know, several different things throughout my upbringing.
John Dehlin [01:24:56] Would this have been for other FLDS families or for just. Just normal non FLDS clientele?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:25:03] Oh, no. It was only. I was only ever allowed to work for people that were flds.
John Dehlin [01:25:10] Right, But I mean, on. On homes that who would move into.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:25:14] Oh, I see. No, no, no. We worked outside of the community. That was kind of how we made the money was to go out in several states, actually, and we would do construction for homes in St. George and in Nevada and in Arizona and Colorado. So we kind of traveled around and built homes for just the, I guess you could call Gentiles.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:25:34] But they were only allowed to work for, like, other FLDS members. So, like, the FLDS were known for having a lot of construction companies. Right. So his brothers would have a stone working company and you'd have an uncle that had this company and that company. And these young boys would stop schooling at the age of 12 to 14 and go start working full time for whatever family member or other member of the flds. Go out on these construction job sites for anybody. But they were known, like, I grew up in St. George, was about 45 minutes away from Hildale, and in St. George, like, you wanted the polygamous workers on your job site because you knew they did an amazing job. They worked hard, they worked fast, they had big crews of people. So they were known for their craftsmanship and for doing a really good job in construction. So they always had a ton of work in my community, but we didn't know necessarily that it was all like a lot of child labor. So.
John Dehlin [01:26:32] So who owned the companies? Did FLDS Church own the construction companies, or were they privately owned? Or was it a mix?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:26:41] It was a mix. It started out that they were privately owned, and then as time went on, it seemed like the church wanted more control over some of the companies. So then it became a mix. And then during Warren's heydays, he kind of took over and just everything kind of belonged to him and all the money belonged to him. And so. But there were a lot of companies that were privately owned by FLDS members. And then they would just turn in a lot of their money as tithing to the church, but they were in control of the company. That was my childhood when I was growing up. Going to work. They were privately owned, but then just giving a lot of their money to the church that they owned or the profits of the company.
John Dehlin [01:27:26] I have more questions, but Jen has a question.
Guest [01:27:29] I was just wondering, so at 14, you're on the job site. Did you get a paycheck or how did that work as far as, like, paying the younger people that were working?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:27:41] Yes, great question. And I did get a paycheck, and it was one of those things where it was very clearly known to us that when we get this paycheck, a certain amount of it needed to go to father to help take care of the family. So that was. Some people ask us, how in the world was your father allowed or able to. To provide for such a large family? Well, there you have it. A lot of us out there working would. Would give money to him to help provide for the family. So a lot of our money would go to, I guess you could say in a roundabout way, to the family or to the church, but we were able to keep some of it. And that's why some of the. Or a lot of the men you'll see out there have the really nice vehicles and. And things like that, because they were able to spend some money on what they want to.
John Dehlin [01:28:27] So what do you know what kind of wage you were paid as a child and as a teenager? Like, hourly wage. And then what percentage you had to give to your dad?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:28:36] Boy, oh, boy. It was a. Hmm. I don't. A lot of the. A lot of it was piece work. So you get paid a certain amount per. Like, for example, when I was doing masonry work, putting rock work on people's homes, we got a. Paid a certain amount per to the square foot that we did. So if you worked extra hard, then you would get paid more. And I'm trying to remember the rule with. As far as giving money to the family or to father, I believe it was a dollar amount that we were expected to give him. So if we worked harder and made more money, then we could keep more money because he expected us to give a certain dollar amount. And I forget exactly what that dollar amount was. I apologize.
John Dehlin [01:29:20] That's fine. And their child labor laws preventing the exploitation of children. Like, was it legal for you to be working at such young ages, or was it illegal?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:29:31] It was illegal.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:29:32] It was illegal.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:29:33] And I actually was prepared that if anyone came to me and asked me how old I was on the job site, I was prepared to tell them I was 18.
John Dehlin [01:29:41] So you were told to lie.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:29:43] I don't remember if I was straight up told to do that or if I just knew that it was illegal so I was going to do it myself just because I knew that it could get myself and the employer in trouble. So I don't remember anyone specifically coming to me and say, hey, you need to lie about your age, maybe. But I just remember that I was ready to say that.
John Dehlin [01:30:03] And you started working on these construction jobs around what age?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:30:08] Around 14.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:30:09] Wow.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:30:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:30:11] Okay. And did they just pay you in cash?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:30:14] Yeah. Yes and no. Sometimes also checks, because checks are traceable.
John Dehlin [01:30:19] Cash is not traceable.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:30:20] Right, yeah. So the companies that would pay me in with checks, they were paying tithe or they were paying taxes. They would have had to have been.
John Dehlin [01:30:28] So maybe that was when you were older and it wasn't illegal for you to be working.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:30:32] Right.
John Dehlin [01:30:33] Maybe they would pay the 14 year olds in cash.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:30:35] And once you became 16, I wonder now back, because do you know what the labor laws are in you?
John Dehlin [01:30:42] I'm sure you can work at 15.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:30:43] I was gonna say normally it's maybe it's 16. I mean, I imagine paper boys, it's 15.
John Dehlin [01:30:49] The thing is, I'm sure paper boys can deliver newspapers at younger ages. So I don't even pretend to know what's illegal and what's not.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:30:57] So I, I was a little bit older when I started getting checks, so I imagine I must have been 15 or 16 years old.
John Dehlin [01:31:02] So they would do it cash until it was legal, I'm sure.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:31:05] Yeah, they're smart. Yep.
John Dehlin [01:31:08] Okay. And you, that's, you know, this is probably not going to be surprising to you, but as I think about raising my kids, especially in the era of like cell phones and iPads and video games and screens, as I was growing up as a traditional Mormon dad, I wanted my kids to learn to work because that's like, for me, even after I'd kind of lost my orthodox faith in Mormonism, the thing that I wanted most is my kids to grow to adulthood and to be able to work hard and provide for themselves because like, what else? How else can you get by and have a good, healthy life if you can't make ends meet?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:31:47] Right.
John Dehlin [01:31:47] So I wanted them to be honest, hard workers who could provide for themselves. And it turns out I think my kids are great. And that was, it was really hard to figure out because just getting them to like, like, I remember Saturdays growing up like, okay, we're gonna work, we're gonna go weed the garden. And it was almost like mutiny that ended in people crying. And I'm just like, I Can't even get my kids to freaking weed the flower bed in front of our house. Like, how am I ever. How are my kids ever going to learn to work? And so for us, it ended up being where school was, the way they worked. But. But chores around the house were, you know, they'd make their bed maybe if we were lucky, or help with the dishes maybe. But getting them to work around the house was hard for us. And so, like, I'm thinking of your childhood with a lot of envy as a child and as a parent in the sense that you just said you were looking forward to work.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:32:41] Yes, it was looking forward to work because it was kind of a way to be with the big boys, right? And to get out of the house and get away from some of these chores around the house that we were required to do. And it just. For some reason, the feeling out there was the quicker you can get to work, the better. I don't know where that came from, but it seemed like all of us boys just wanted to do that. And we. Well, and it was also the only way we were going to be able to make any money. So we wanted to be able to make that money to maybe buy us a new bike or, you know, any of the big purchases. Even though we had money, we were supposed to run them all through father anyway just to make sure. Got in trouble for that a few times.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:33:19] I'm just gonna say, I'm like, is that what you did, babe? How'd that work out for you?
John Dehlin [01:33:23] What type of purchases?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:33:24] What purchase did you make?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:33:26] One specific. We were preparing for a funeral and we were all walking out to father's vehicle to, as a family, drive over to the funeral. And as we were walking out to his car to get in a big semi truck pulls in front of our house and they start unloading this big couple really large boxes and putting them on our front porch. And father looks around. What in the world is going on here? Me, I'm this little teenager. I'm like, oh, that's me. That's my new bed. He did not appreciate that at all. So we got a sermon on the mount about how we need to run every purchase through him after that. But it was just so he would have been unhappy.
John Dehlin [01:34:09] Why?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:34:10] Just because he wanted to know what was being purchased and where our money was going. He didn't want us to be spending money on things that weren't allowed.
John Dehlin [01:34:19] I thought you were going to say it was like a four wheeler, like a jet ski or something.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:34:23] I got. I got in Trouble for a big old bed. Yeah, that's. That's all it was.
John Dehlin [01:34:28] Wow, that's so interesting.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:34:30] Which I left behind when I moved out because it was too big, so.
John Dehlin [01:34:34] But for those who want to criticize the lifestyle, we'll just call it the lifestyle. Unless you want to. Want me to call it something different? Like there's some real.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:34:43] Like.
John Dehlin [01:34:43] I'm thinking about. I remember growing up and watching the movie Witness with Harrison Ford where he's like this investigator, crime investigator, trying to solve a murderer, and he moves into an Amish community. And one of the most beautiful, moving scenes I've ever seen in Hollywood is this scene where, like, someone's, I think, house burns down or barn burns down and they do a barn raising as a scene where the entire Amish community comes and builds the barn in, like, a day to. To help out someone who had lost their barn is super moving. And I. And I. I looked at that and I thought, what a beautiful feeling. An idea to have a community that just pitches in together, helps each other and serves each other. What do you think of her feel
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:35:29] when I say, oh, it's funny you mentioned that, John, because it happened often. There would be a family in need, a family that didn't have a home. And we would come together and it was almost this competition on a Saturday. We would come together as a community and build a house in a day. That was kind of a really cool thing that we were known for, that we could build a house in a day.
John Dehlin [01:35:48] You could.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:35:48] There was. We could. There was a concrete slab there, but that was it. And we built the home. We had every, every.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:35:55] The every trade.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:35:57] Every trade was within the community so we could all come together and figure out a way to build the house.
John Dehlin [01:36:02] You did that?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:36:02] We did that.
John Dehlin [01:36:03] Well, how did that feel?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:36:04] It felt amazing. As far as, you know? Well, depending on what. What age I was at. At a very young age, it was almost overwhelming because I showed up at the project and I didn't have really any idea what I was doing. So I was just kind of running around trying to get out of people's way. As you can imagine, building a home in a day takes a lot of people all in the same space. So it was a little overwhelming. But as you got older and really good at your job, then it was very fulfilling and a very fun thing to do. And then you would see the family move in the next day, and you were just like, wow, we did that. Right? So it was a very cool feeling.
John Dehlin [01:36:38] I helped a friend move the other Day. And I felt like a million bucks when I was done. You know what I mean? Like, I can't imagine what it feels like to help a family in need like that.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:36:47] Yeah, yeah, it was great. And that wasn't the only time that we came together as a community. There were a lot of community events that were held when I was young. Obviously, Warren took all those things away later on. But when I was younger, we had community events where we got together to either do a project or even just have some fun sometimes at the parks. And we would, you know, the Harvest Festival festival was one thing we did. The Fourth of July celebration was another. And we came together as a community. We had a lot of food, a lot of fun, you know, and just played games and had a great time all together.
John Dehlin [01:37:21] So was it 4th of July or 24th of July?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:37:24] Actually, both.
John Dehlin [01:37:25] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:37:25] We did something on both of those. But the Fourth of July was the bigger of the two that we celebrated.
John Dehlin [01:37:31] I thought fundamentalists weren't crazy about the government, and so they. I would have thought they might not celebrate the fourth of July because of the historical persecution of. From their perspective of the government, you know, from the government to you.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:37:49] All right. And, you know, that was something that is definitely a big factor, but that came after Warren's time. Warren was the one that kind of made us start to hate the government more.
John Dehlin [01:38:02] So that stuff about not finishing the house to avoid taxes, was that Post Warren or pre Warren?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:38:08] I believe it was. I think it was Post Warren. There may have been some of that happening beforehand. In 2000, were the Olympics in Salt Lake in 2002? Yeah, 2002. So in 2000 or just before 2000, before the Olympics, all of the members of the FLDS community that lived in Salt Lake City were commanded to leave Salt Lake City because we were told that if the Olympics came here, that would be. The earth would be destroyed.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:38:37] End of times.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:38:37] End of times, Right. One of the. One of the end of times. So all of the people that lived in Salt Lake City, which were a lot of FLDS members, moved down to Shore Creek.
John Dehlin [01:38:48] Was your family here in Salt Lake?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:38:50] No, we were in Shore Creek.
John Dehlin [01:38:51] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:38:52] So we just got to witness the town filling up very, very quickly. And some of these homes. I was under the assumption. I know that you hear about the taxes and trying to skirt around that, and maybe that was something to do with it, but I was under the assumption that a lot of these homes weren't completely finished because we were just popping homes up left and right, trying to fit all of the people moving in into homes.
Bleeding the Beast and Financial Exploitation
John Dehlin [01:39:14] The term that I remember learning about was bleeding the beast. Does that term mean something to you? Did it then and does it now?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:39:23] It wasn't something that we were really. Or that I was personally involved.
John Dehlin [01:39:28] You don't remember that term?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:39:29] I don't remember that term.
John Dehlin [01:39:30] Do you want to explain to people what is meant by that term?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:39:34] Well, there came a time where Warren told all of the followers that the government was after us. They were trying to just destroy us completely. And so his commandment was, we do not give them anything. So we do not give them. We do not pay our taxes. We do not do any of these things because we're funding this persecution and they're just all evil and we can't. Anyway, my understanding was, but they would
John Dehlin [01:40:03] take advantage of social services like welfare. And so you're bleeding the beast by taking as much from the government as you can, but not giving back to it.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:40:15] And that was another part of it. There was a lot of fraud in the, in the food stamps, for one. They would take advantage of that, and from what I heard, they would go in there and collect food stamps and then they would just turn around and give it all to the church. So it wasn't even for themselves. And there were a lot of these women that had children with men that weren't legally married. A lot of the men were married to the first wife legally and then were not married to all of the other wives. So technically these were single moms with children needing to care for these children
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:40:51] with 12 children because they were just celestial marriages that couldn't be on record because of it being illegal to practice polygamy. So.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:40:57] So they would, they would go and collect all of their benefits from the government, turn around and just give it straight to the church.
John Dehlin [01:41:03] Wow.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:41:03] So I guess if that's where you're. What you're referring to is bleeding the beast. That also did happen.
John Dehlin [01:41:08] Yeah. That's fascinating. Okay. And just really quickly, I was. I learned this from the Keep Sweet documentary because I, I didn't realize this, that, that Warren. I think it was Warren not ruling when the Olympics came, told everybody that the end Jesus would be coming soon.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:41:24] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:41:25] So you were in Colorado City, Hilldale, when everybody moved in, but then Jesus didn't come. And you know, that's a modern day example of a modern day prophet's prophecy not coming true. What are your. What are your. Oh, Jen's.
Guest [01:41:44] I'm just, I'm just wondering what he said to you guys, like why he wanted Everyone to come down. Like, what was the narrative that was being said to you guys, why everyone was coming down there and then how
John Dehlin [01:41:58] he managed the prophecy ended up not coming true too?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:42:01] Yeah, it wasn't even the only time that he said it was going to be the end of the world either. There was.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:42:05] There were several times. And because, because of all of these prophecies, I will just say as a child, I was always in a state of fear. Right. I was afraid of so many things happening because he was talking about the end of times all the time. And it was just that, you know, hellfire and damnation was his sermon all the time as far as Warren Jeffs goes. And so we were very afraid of these type of things. But you ask, how did they skirt around the prophecy not coming true and what did they say about that? It was actually very simple because it was always blamed on the people if something didn't come come to pass. It had nothing to do with the prophecy not being true. It was because we as a people weren't righteous enough. We weren't obedient enough. So it was because of us. It was our fault that Jesus Christ couldn't come back to the Earth. We weren't prepared for him.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:42:58] And they believed that everyone had to come to Hilldale, to the Crick, because that one specific town, everything else in the entire world would burn and would be destroyed. And they all needed to be together in one Zion in order to be saved.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:43:17] So to Jan's question, exactly. We were, we were, we were told they all had to move down because the. I guess Short Creek was the only place that was going to be completely safe. And so that was kind of the idea behind it. And they would talk about, because Short Creek has large, really tall mountains surrounding it. And they talked about because of the way the mountains were set up, the bomber planes wouldn't be able to come in and bomb the town. I mean, it was very much talked about Russia evading on one side and China on the other side. And everyone's going to be after the Lord's people and we're going to be destroyed unless we're obedient, if we're not obedient. So when things didn't happen, like, like we were like they were prophesied that they would when the Olympics did come, then I was even more afraid. I was like, oh no, now what? Now we're for sure going to be destroyed, you know, and then the next prophecy would come several years later and then we would try to prepare for that one and it was. There was always something.
John Dehlin [01:44:14] Yeah. And that's a technique that high demand religions or cults use called blame reversal. You. You always have to blame the members and it for prophecies that don't come true. And it provides at least two important functions. Number one, it gets the leader off the hook for making a failed prophecy. But it also makes the members more afraid and more perfectionistic and more devoted, which is weird because you would think a failed prophecy would weaken the devotion of the membership, just like a failed treasure dig by Joseph might weaken the devotion of his followers. But the truth is, if you can turn the blame of the failed prophecy or the failed treasure dig back on the people themselves, they're ironically more devoted after the prophecy doesn't come true than they were before.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:45:04] Yeah, I agree. That's how I felt. I felt that because it was my fault, I had to be better. I had to try harder because, you know, Christ is trying to come, right? And it's all my fault. It's our fault that he's not here yet. And so it was just. It was a constant state of fear and a constant state of, I'm not good enough. What do I do now? And then eventually you're sick of it.
John Dehlin [01:45:26] Like, I'm feeling deep ambivalence of like, almost a romantic envy of the idealized parts of your upbringing. And this. I'm sighing deeply at, like, this shame and the perfectionism and the oppression that you were experiencing. I'm experiencing both emotions, and I didn't even go through it. Jen, were you going to say something?
Guest [01:45:47] I'm just saying that I think that still exists in the mainstream LDS church right now. That same. Like that is very similar, I believe, like the reversal, fear and shame for not being obedient. It's your fault, you know, that things are happening. I think that still exists quite a bit.
John Dehlin [01:46:06] Yeah.
Guest [01:46:07] Yeah. Something similar still.
John Dehlin [01:46:08] Like, if you don't have kids, maybe you weren't faithful, or if your patriarchal blessing doesn't come true, or if you don't, you know.
Guest [01:46:14] Yeah. So much of that still. So much.
John Dehlin [01:46:16] Yeah.
Guest [01:46:17] It's sad anyway.
John Dehlin [01:46:20] I'm envious and really sad about your upbringing simultaneously.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:46:25] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:46:25] But there's a lot of envy, weirdly.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:46:27] Right. Yeah, it's. It was interesting, you know, and I don't. I don't look back and think, oh, what a horrible childhood. Or, you know, I don't. I don't look at it that way.
John Dehlin [01:46:38] No.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:46:38] You know, but I'm also. I would consider myself one of the lucky ones. I feel that I got out just in time. Some of the people dealt with a lot more than I did.
John Dehlin [01:46:49] Talk this whole last 20 or 30 minutes started with me asking about the rules of your upbringing. Oh, yeah, it was a perfect. It was a perfect path to go. But just quickly, like in my Mormon home growing up, no swearing, no alcohol, no tobacco, no drugs, no porn, no masturbation. No. You know, no. Our movies, you know, obey the Sabbath, don't go shopping on Sunday. You know, modesty stuff. What were the main rules growing up in your home? Just make a big old list if you can.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:47:23] Yes. So I will gladly do that. But for those that are familiar with a Mormon mission, I will just say for you, the mission was. The rules on the mission are. Were not any difficult thing to deal with because those are very similar to the rules in the flds. We weren't allowed to swim. We weren't allowed to really have any type of entertainment. We weren't allowed to watch movies. Weren't allowed to watch at all anymore. At all.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:47:53] Listening to music?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:47:54] No. No movies? No. They call it Gentile music. So really the only music we were allowed to listen to was music made by the church and hymns, basically. Hymns and a lot of songs that were created by church members that were either Warren or close to Warren that would. The words were very much, you know, praise the prophet, follow the prophet, keep sweet, you know, keep sweet. No matter what, he knows the way. Nobody else almost like turned it away from Christ. More focusing on the prophet.
John Dehlin [01:48:30] Can you sing a song or two that you remember that would have been encouraging you to follow the Prophet or Warren Jeffs or whatever. Do you even remember, is that not everyone's into music like me.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:48:43] If I had a singing voice, that would be the first requirement here. Second requirement be to remember all the words, which I don't. I haven't listened to the. To the music for such a long time. I still do have some. Like, if a song comes on, like, listen, watching some of these shows like Keep Sweet and Obey, I. Listening to that music that comes on sometimes it just takes me to a place. I mean, this music was forced on us from every angle. So the music is one of those things that was a very big part of kind of putting our mindset in the right place, I guess you could
John Dehlin [01:49:22] say, or maybe a more sinister interpretation. The music was used to what, to
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:49:29] convince us of certain things or to persuade us to believe a certain way? Definitely.
John Dehlin [01:49:36] Kind of maybe to control or indoctrinate you a little bit.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:49:39] Yes, I would definitely Say that.
John Dehlin [01:49:41] Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:49:42] When he hears the music. When he hears the music, it definitely brings up, like, a lot of emotion. And you can see just in his face, like, it hit him how much he remembers it. So. So I think if a soundtrack came on, he would be able. He could sing along with it for sure. I remember when we were dating, being in the car and I was flipping, you know, back when they had. You had, like, CD albums in your car, you know, and we're flipping through CDs, and there was a CD with Warren's face on it. And I was like, what is this?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:50:10] I have some.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:50:11] Yeah. And he's like, oh, it's, you know, the music I listen to. So we popped in for a second. I couldn't handle it for very long because I'm a big. I listen to the words of songs really closely, and there's so much indoctrination in those songs to be loyal to Warren. But, yeah, it's definitely. You'd be able to sing along.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:50:31] I would be able to sing along, but to just think off top my head, you know, it's been about 15 years since I just sat down and listened to the songs.
Authority, Obedience, and Warren Jeffs
John Dehlin [01:50:39] So, like, as you think about who it was most important to obey, there's God, there's Jesus, there's Joseph Smith, and there's Warren Jeffs. What would be the order that it was emphasized for you growing up?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:50:53] Warren Jeffs. Warren Jeffs. Warren Jeffs and Warren Jeffs.
John Dehlin [01:50:57] I didn't. That sounds like I anticipated that answer, but actually, I wanted you to rank him.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:51:02] You know, I mean, they tried to turn it on. Hey, all you have to do is follow Warren because he speaks for God. Right? So they try to make it seem like ultimately you're following God and Jesus Christ. That's the ultimate, you know, idea here. But all you have to do is listen to and follow Warren because he won't lead you astray. He will make sure you do that in the perfect way.
John Dehlin [01:51:28] He speaks for God.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:51:29] Yes.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:51:30] 100%. Yes.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:51:31] He'd probably rank himself right there. Like, rather than it being a ranking, like, you'd think a list. It's Heavenly Father and Jesus, and Warren is right there with them, and he's the one that's speaking down. So I'd say it's more of a parallel rather than a ranking.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:51:45] And his sermon, sometimes he would walk up to the pulpit and just look down. Silence. You'd hear a needle drop. He would just sit at the pulpit, not making a sound. And I was always told by my mother that he was praying. And the reason he was praying is because the words that he was about to speak were God's words. He wasn't thinking up what to say. He was praying for God to be in the spirit, to be with him, to be able to speak his words, like, speak the words. God is speaking directly through him at that point. That's what I was taught.
John Dehlin [01:52:23] So much power.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:52:25] He had too much power over the people, for sure.
John Dehlin [01:52:28] Did he have to worry about what past prophets had said? Because one of the things that Mormon, lds, modern LDS prophets have to deal with are really embarrassing or even just different things that past prophets have said, like gays are bad, or homosexuality is a perversion, or blacks shouldn't have the priesthood. Like, there's always this, like, how do we not undermine ourselves by overriding what past prophets have said while still changing so that we're not viewed as bigots today? How did Warren Jeffs deal with previous rules or prophecies or doctrines or teachings of previous prophets?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:53:08] Well, because he kept things so strict, it was actually very easy for him because he would keep the same rules. He never changed those rules. He would just add to them. So he never went back and said, oh, now it's okay for the blacks to have priesthood? No, he was still very much against that. If it was in the scriptures, he's against it. He just made more rules on top of the rules that were already there. So it was almost easy for him.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:53:33] They definitely stayed very fundamental. You know, the gospel had been restored. And how that was in the very beginning with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. That is what they held true to. There was no trying to go back on what Brigham Young said. It was what he said was truth, and we only build on it.
John Dehlin [01:53:53] Okay, so just to close this one out. So no, no tv, no cartoons growing up, not even Disney movies?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:54:01] Well, okay, so that's a good question, because there was a little bit of that allowed only if Father, not one of the mothers, Father himself, had to be present in the room, then we could watch very selected movies. I watched Bambi. I watched Winnie the Pooh. I watched the Sound of Music, some National Geographics. And then we watched all those over again a hundred times. So that was about it.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:54:27] Very, very short list.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:54:29] And it had to be a special occasion, too. We couldn't just randomly, hey, hey, Father, I want to watch a movie. No, no, no, no, no. It had to be okay. It's family. We tried to do a family home evening once a week, typically on a Monday is when we would do that if it worked out and we would all meet together as a family and we would either play games or on occasion we were able to watch a movie. So it was a very structured, like almost like a treat to be able to watch anything.
Home Church, Scripture, and FLDS Worship
John Dehlin [01:54:57] How do 30 or 40 people do a fam home evening?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:55:01] Well, there were never quite that many in the home at once because so many.
John Dehlin [01:55:04] Okay, 20.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:55:05] Yes. Well, there were very large rooms. Our family rooms and living room rooms were huge.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:55:15] The homes are. They're like hotels even now. I mean Hilldale now, a lot of them have been converted into hotels. Talking massive, massive homes.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:55:25] We also would hold certain meetings in our homes for like Sunday meetings, for example. The sacrament meeting was actually held in our home before going to the general meeting.
John Dehlin [01:55:35] Well, explain that.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:55:36] Yeah. So basically on Sunday were there chapels
John Dehlin [01:55:40] that everyone would attend? Were the awards were there.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:55:43] So there was only one big church building in. In Short Creek. There was just one big meeting house and it could fit all the members. So very, very, very large building.
John Dehlin [01:55:54] How many members?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:55:55] At its peak in Shore Creek, I think it got up to about 10,000.
John Dehlin [01:56:00] That's like a mega church.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:56:01] Yes.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:56:01] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:56:02] A lot of. Lot of chairs.
John Dehlin [01:56:04] What was that building called?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:56:06] The meeting house? Oh, I believe it was named after Roy Johnson. So I believe it was called the Roy Johnson meeting house.
John Dehlin [01:56:14] It was folding chairs or like auditorium.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:56:17] Yes.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:56:17] We would set out a lot of chairs. There was also a surrounding balcony on the second floor that would kind of surround the main hall and look down onto the main hall and the speakers at the pulpit. So just a lot of chairs set out and we would just sit there and listen to the leaders preach. But that was at 2 o' clock in the afternoon when that meeting was held from 2 to 4 o'.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:56:41] Clock.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:56:42] Before that, every Sunday morning we would hold in our homes what we called sacrament meeting. And that was where we had the breaking of the bread and the water. And all of that was passed out to just family settings.
John Dehlin [01:56:57] That's interesting because during COVID the church was kind of moving in that direction. And with the church's new curriculum, I've been out, so I don't remember what it's called, but more home study. What's that?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:57:09] Come follow me.
John Dehlin [01:57:10] Come follow me. Sorry, that came out after the church kicked me out. But that's the church moving a little bit more in the direction of the fundamentalists. If the administration of sacrament and instruction is more home based. Primarily, yes.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:57:24] And the meetings were. They were run by the family or by the head of the family, otherwise known as The Father and he would select who would say the prayers, who would, you know, which songs would be sung at these meetings. And a couple of the older boys that held the priesthood would come up in front of the room and kneel down and say the sacrament prayer, break the bread, pass out the water. Something interesting about the passing out of the water, though, is we just all use the same cup. So instead of having individual water cups, we would all take a sip out of the same water cup. So a little bit different than the way the LDS Church does it today.
John Dehlin [01:58:07] Now, the Book of Mormon originally had wine instead of water, so I'm wondering how fundamentalists dealt with that.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:58:13] They just. We weren't supposed to. They had the Word of wisdom.
John Dehlin [01:58:16] No, I mean, wine as part of the sacrament.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:58:18] Right. I don't know. They didn't really give a whole lot of instruction on why. And that's something they were able to get away with. They didn't have to give the answers to why exactly. They just were able to say, this is the way it is because this is what God wants, period. And we said, okay.
John Dehlin [01:58:31] Because the Earl. I think the earliest Book of Commandments, Doctrine and Covenants, would have also said wine instead of water. And that would have been changed at some point.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:58:40] Yes. I would have to have a conversation with my father or someone that was earlier on in the church to understand why exactly they weren't allowed to. Or we weren't allowed to have water or, sorry, wine. But I assume it's something similar to the reason the mainstream LDS church doesn't allow it now.
Guest [01:58:58] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:58:58] In fact, maybe it changed before they split off.
John Dehlin [01:59:02] Yeah. Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:59:02] Maybe that's why.
John Dehlin [01:59:03] Okay, so it's home church with just your father, his wives, and all the children. Did. Did multiple families ever do home church together?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:59:14] There were times where we would have, for example, my grandmother, father's mother, we would go pick her up and bring her to be there. So there were some times where some extended family would join in as well, but it was mostly just a family meeting.
John Dehlin [01:59:29] Okay. And so there was prayer, hymns, sacrament and what else? During home church, basically.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:59:36] And then. And then sermons. Yes. And then we also had. Within that same meeting, after we had the sacrament and the hymns and all of that, there would be a sermon or two, and then we would split off to what we called Sunday school. And that was based on the age groups. So depending on how old you were, there were different classes that we just met in different rooms in our home. And then the older siblings would teach those classes based on our age or the sister wives. Or one of the mothers. Yes, or one of the mothers or one of the older siblings.
John Dehlin [02:00:08] Sorry.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:00:08] Yeah, yeah. And I believe that father would typically be in charge of and teach the priesthood classes, like the Melchizedek priesthood classes.
John Dehlin [02:00:18] Did you have a Relief Society equivalent for women?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:00:20] Oh, boy. Not that I can think of. Maybe we did. Maybe I just didn't pay attention because I wasn't a part of it.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:00:29] The women, the women had class. I don't know if it was on Sunday, but they did have very specific classes where the women went and had trainings.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:00:36] They had trainings. So I guess they could have called that Relief Society. Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:00:40] Whether you want to call it or. Yeah, whether they called it a Relief Society or not, they had specific trainings and they had manuals and, and things of how to be a righteous mother in Zion and, you know, just normal motherly duties and duties as a daughter and all those type of things. Very specific. I actually, my one sister in law has given me those manuals, so I've gone through on some of our videos and sharing some of those which are really interesting, but I don't know if they ever called it Relief Society, but
Guest [02:01:06] I think I watched one of your podcasts and one of the ladies called it homemaking.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:01:11] Oh, yeah, Homemaking class. You're right.
Guest [02:01:12] Is that right?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:01:13] That does sound familiar.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:01:14] Okay.
Guest [02:01:15] Yeah, yeah, Nice.
John Dehlin [02:01:16] Jen, look at you knowing your stuff.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:01:20] You're remembering our. Our episodes better than I am, so that's awesome.
John Dehlin [02:01:24] But at home church, there was. There was the equivalent of sacrament meeting, there was the equivalent of priesthood meeting, there's the equivalent of Sunday school. I guess you didn't call primary, the kids education primary.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:01:36] Primary does actually ring a bell. I'm trying to separate what I've learned and heard in the mainstream LDS Church from what I was. What I was raised with. Yeah, but primary did ring a bell, but I believe it was only because of the primary songs that we had and would sing.
John Dehlin [02:01:52] Got it.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:01:53] If that now. Now that I think about it, I believe it was only because of the primary songs that I. That that name rings a bell from
John Dehlin [02:02:00] my childhood and the fact that. That the women wouldn't have their own meeting during church maybe fits the pattern of how patriarchy can sometimes play out. So I'm not super surprised at that. In terms of the scriptures that you viewed as scripture, what, what, what, what books did you view as scripture? And how is that different or the same from the LDS Church?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:02:25] Yes, so very similar, actually. They had the Book of Mormon, the Bible Doctrine, covenants, Pearl of great price, and a lot of the Joseph Smith's teachings, Brigham Young's teachings. And then they would have also some scriptures that they would refer to as scriptures from more modern prophets as well. Like even Warren Jeffs would have some scriptures, I guess you could say, and other leaders of the church.
John Dehlin [02:02:51] But were they added to your doctrine? So did your Doctrine and Covenants go beyond what our Doctrine and Covenants went to?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:02:58] No, actually, my father would go and buy scriptures from Deseret books, had the exact same ones. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:03:06] No, I was just gonna say exactly what you were going to. So go ahead.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:03:09] Okay. No, I was just going to say the only. The only thing that was never really changed is they would always stick with the brown hymn book. They never switched over to the green hymn book.
John Dehlin [02:03:19] So you use the LDS Church hymn book that was used prior to the green one.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:03:25] Correct.
John Dehlin [02:03:26] So you would sing all the same hymns. I grew up singing, basically.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:03:30] Yep.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:03:30] Yep, exactly.
John Dehlin [02:03:32] Wow.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:03:32] And get the same. Get the same scriptures. Quads straight from desert.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:03:35] Yeah, we had quads. We had the same exact scriptures.
John Dehlin [02:03:38] So Book of Abraham, Book of Moses. So you sang, you know, you saying, come follow me. You saying, you know, I stand all amazed. All of those, you know, oh, how lovely was the morning.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:03:54] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:03:55] Those are all hymns of your. Put your shoulder to the wheel.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:03:58] Yep, all of those. I sang all of those there. I mean, there were some changes made when they switched over to the green hymn book, but most of the hymns are the same.
John Dehlin [02:04:09] Wow.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:04:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:04:09] What about. What about primary songs?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:04:11] See, we did have a primary hymn book as well, and so I did grow up from being familiar with a lot of the primary songs.
John Dehlin [02:04:21] The same ones. I would have been familiar.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:04:22] Yeah. Like, I am a child of God. Jesus is, wants me for, Wants me for a sunbeam. Those. Those type of songs, huh?
John Dehlin [02:04:29] You would have learned and sang those.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:04:30] Yes.
Guest [02:04:30] Did you sing Follow the Prophet?
John Dehlin [02:04:33] I think that would have come later, I don't think. Also. Also. Yeah. Yeah. It would have come after the green book had been released.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:04:43] Yes. That one does not sound familiar. From my childhood. I've heard it now.
Guest [02:04:47] I was just wondering if Warren would like that song. So I was wondering.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:04:50] I know you think it would be right up his alley.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:04:52] He came up with songs very similar to that.
Guest [02:04:55] Okay.
John Dehlin [02:04:56] Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. So where were the revelations given by FLDS prophets kept if they weren't added to the Doctrine and Covenants?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:05:09] They had their own separate books.
John Dehlin [02:05:11] What were those books called?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:05:13] Oh, my goodness. That I don't remember. I never read them. I just knew we had them around the house. As a young teenage boy, I wasn't really that into reading sermons, so I only read what I had to read basically, as far as that goes. But yeah, I don't remember any of the names to be honest.
John Dehlin [02:05:33] That's fine.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:05:33] And I think they would be similar to like some of the books that the apostles of the LDS Church have come out with. Some of these apostles have written books. It would be something like that, but we would consider it scripture.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:05:44] Yeah. Or like the teachings of Harold B. Lee or whatever. When you have like the teachings and then that's what you study from, in Sunday school in the lds, it's similar to that. We have some of his that he had written since he was in prison and it will just say like revelation to all nations, a revelation to the United States government and it'll still be like that thick, but it's a whole series of revelations and then they'll get that series of revelations bound and then that's one book of revelations from him.
Guest [02:06:12] Okay, is, is the revelations. I think I've seen a picture of one. So is the revelations always written in like verses like the scripture?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:06:21] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:06:22] In King James English?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:06:24] Yeah, sort of. Yes, very close.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:06:26] I'd say it's very similar to the Doctrine and Covenants. Obvious, honestly.
John Dehlin [02:06:30] Like apparently God only speak God and Jesus only speak King James English, apparently.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:06:34] Yeah. They change other things. As the times change, a lot of other things change, but the way they speak always stays the same.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:06:40] Isn't that interesting? I mean, it's a good, valid point. That does seem to be, you know, the thou seems to always carry on through scripture.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:06:49] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:06:50] Okay. And I know we're going back to this again, but I just, you know, you comparing it to a mission, Mormon mission experience is really interesting because, you know, a lot of people don't like the modern LDS Church being referred to as a cult. They find it deeply offensive. But I think it's fair to say that the LDS missionary experience, at least the experience that I had growing up, was the most cult like approaches the most cult like living conditions in the LDS Church. Because you can't be alone, literally. Except when you're going the bathroom. You couldn't call home. But twice a year, like you couldn't even go home if a parent died. Like it, you know, you couldn't call home. You couldn't read the newspaper, couldn't watch the news, couldn't read books that weren't church books. You had like five Books you could read, couldn't listen to popular music, only church hymns. Like by any standard, couldn't date, like by any standard, that would be viewed as cult like. And you're saying that was your, your regular life?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:07:57] Exactly that. And then maybe some extra rules on top of it.
John Dehlin [02:08:00] Like what else?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:08:02] Well, every home had their own rules. In my home, we were not allowed to snack. If we were, if we were hungry, we couldn't just go up to a cupboard and get some food and eat it on our own. Right. We'd have to get permission from a parent. I think a lot of that was due to the fact there were so many of us that if we snacked the when we wanted to, that food would not be there for very long. But we weren't allowed to run in the home. That was a huge no, no. Oh boy. There were very, very strict times for meals. Meal times were very, very strict and we had to be there. It wasn't an option. Every morning we would wake up around 5am we would meet for morning prayer and scripture reading and same thing in the evening, about 6pm we would meet for the evening prayer.
John Dehlin [02:08:55] Everyone?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:08:56] Everyone?
John Dehlin [02:08:56] Everyone in the prayer and family scripture reading was everyone, Everyone? Yep. Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:09:01] Yes. So. And it was just up to us to make sure we were there. And that was one of the things we were able to get away from a little bit when we started working away from the home because we would get back from the job sites later and we would leave so early that we had that little bit more of freedom from not having to be at all these meetings because we were out working. So. And then as far as the. That was just more family rules. As far as other community rules, we weren't even allowed to think about another girl, let alone, let alone try to date. I got in huge trouble once for holding a girl's hand. And at what age? I would have been sure, boy, 13, 14 maybe. And then sometimes we would sneak out of our homes at night just to go and just sit there and talk to a girl. Right. Because at a certain age you're curious and you're interested and you know, for me, I was interested in girls and I wanted to learn more about them. And I just felt, I don't know, I mean, I mean, it was just an exciting thing to be able to go and talk to a girl that was outside of my family and it wasn't allowed. So it was kind of a rush to be able to sneak out of your home, jump on your pedal bike and cruise across town to meet behind an animal pen or something to sit there and kind of hide from everyone and talk. So anyway, dating was a big no, no. We weren't allowed to listen to any music that wasn't made by the church. No entertainment as far as movies and all that, unless it was very well structured.
John Dehlin [02:10:34] What about outside news sources like the Salt Lake Tribune, the Deseret News, like Fox News, cnn?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:10:42] Yeah. So we would receive a newspaper that was something that my father would read. And I think it was more important for him to stay up on the news because of his position within the community. And so that was. I don't believe all of the families would read the newspaper, but he did. And if there was something really important, for example, when the Twin Towers were hit, we heard about that pretty quickly. So things that were very, very big news we did hear about.
John Dehlin [02:11:10] But you would not have been able to see the news?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:11:12] Oh, no, no, no, no. We didn't. We didn't watch the news. We just heard about it.
John Dehlin [02:11:18] Wow. Okay. And so no sources. What about Internet use phones? Cell phones and smartphones and social media?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:11:27] Yes. So smartphones weren't a thing when I was out there yet. So as far as having the Internet on your phone, there wasn't really a need for it or even a want for it when I was out there. That happened right after I moved out. But we did have cell phones, and we had to basically beg for one and we had to buy it ourselves if we wanted it. And we had to come up with a very good reason why we needed it. For me, it was, well, I'm going to be working and I need to get a hold of other people for work and all of that. So that's another reason we like to go to work, is because then we would have an excuse to get some of these things. And so I had a cell phone at age 16 was when I was able to finally go buy one myself. And Internet was not allowed unless it was for business company use. And you weren't allowed to have that in your home. It had to be at the office. So Internet was a huge no, no. And for those families that did have a company that required Internet, it was very much monitored and people weren't allowed to just jump on and do whatever they wanted.
John Dehlin [02:12:30] So you didn't have a computer in your home connected to the Internet that anyone could jump on?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:12:35] No, no, we did not. We had some computers at the building we went to for homeschooling, but it didn't have the Internet. It was just used to kind of Help us learn how to type.
John Dehlin [02:12:46] What about making friends with non flds church members? Why are you laughing?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:12:53] He wasn't even allowed to make friends with other flds. They were not allowed to play with children outside of the family.
John Dehlin [02:12:59] What the.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:13:00] Every family was very much their own family. We weren't supposed to like the neighbor kids across the street. We weren't supposed to spend any time with them. Well, I believe that every family had their own way of interpreting, interpreting the sermons and the laws and the rules. So they didn't want another family to come in and be a bad example or a bad influence on us. So yes, as far as even within the community, we weren't supposed to make friends, let alone outside of the community. That was a. I mean I looked at everyone that was outside of the community as an evil person. I wouldn't have wanted to try to make friends. Yeah. Oh yes.
Social Isolation and Outside World Restrictions
John Dehlin [02:13:37] The rest of the world was evil.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:13:39] Yes.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:13:40] Well, they were wearing short sleeve shirts. What do you expect? That's the way it was really. I mean I would see someone that wasn't dressed like us and I would automatically think of them as a bad person in some way or another. As I got older, my ideas started to change because I would work outside of the community a lot more and that would allow me to spend time with these people and actually realize, oh wait a minute, these are not all bad people. But I don't know that I was taught that they're all wicked. I'm not saying that it's just the way I thought because of the way I was raised.
John Dehlin [02:14:17] I can see how not allowing families to have much inter family communication that intra or inter family communication. I imagine that would serve a really important purpose for Warren or the church leadership because it would really cut down on the dissemination of information.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:14:40] Right.
John Dehlin [02:14:40] And gossiping or dissension if families couldn't talk to each other.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:14:45] Absolutely. I think too like a lot of people may not fully understand, you know, when they see the things that Warren did and they're like, how can anybody follow Warren Jeffs with all the things that he did and the amount of information they even had of what was actually happening with Warren behind closed doors. Most of the families had no clue. There was no way for them to even get the information of the like the things that he was doing behind closed doors. Most people had no idea.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:15:12] Right. Even now I will watch some of these documentaries that have come out and there's things that I see on these documentaries that I'm just like, wait, he was doing what? Right. So I knew. I knew that he was, you know, forcing some men to marry younger girls and that type of thing, but I assumed that was a call from God and it was directly from him to do that. But I had no idea about the other things that Warren himself was doing.
John Dehlin [02:15:40] Wow.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:15:41] Yeah.
Guest [02:15:42] So when you. Sorry. When you went to, like, the big functions that you talk about where, like, more families came, were they. Were they still. You were still separated, even though you were at this big party. I know. With everybody, or was that the one day where, like, you can go see another kid?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:15:59] Well, there were some moments when we got older that we would have to make friends because we were out working with other people. And. And like you say, these big functions, we were allowed to, I guess, play with other families and have a good time while we were there, communicate that type of thing. But we weren't allowed to go home with them and spend some time or have a sleepover or anything like that. It was just a very temporary, hey, how's it going? And maybe play some games together. But it wasn't like becoming best friends.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:16:34] It wasn't like a typical childhood at all. And a lot of those big events, they. Warren got rid of them.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:16:40] True.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:16:41] So those happened early on. But then by the time Sam was, like, a teenager, those were no longer allowed either. So those opportunities to be able to mix and mingle as a community, as things kind of got more secretive and more bad things were happening, they weren't allowing that anyway. So that. But, yeah, not having the time to communicate between families is definitely part of the control.
Guest [02:17:04] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:17:05] Warren banned fun. Even the word yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:17:09] You couldn't say fun.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:17:10] Fun was no longer allowed. If you wanted to say something was fun, you had to say it was enjoyable. Nothing, everything that was pleasure or fun was not allowed. And he basically told us that we shouldn't be having fun. We are only here to do the work of the Lord, and we need to focus on that. We don't need to focus on what pleases us. Later we find out some of the things he was doing on the run, and it just makes me want to cringe. But he was telling us that those having any type of enjoyment outside of just the pleasure of serving the Lord and doing his work was not allowed.
John Dehlin [02:17:46] But you said you played games for family meeting.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:17:49] Yes. See, that was before, though.
John Dehlin [02:17:51] Okay, got it, Got it.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:17:52] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:17:53] And then I was going to ask about, like, friends you'd make at school, but you're homeschooled, so you can't even make friends at school.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:17:58] Exactly.
John Dehlin [02:17:59] That is so isolating. I thought it would have been this tight knit community where everyone knew each other and played with each other and made friends within the community. Is that what you're thinking?
Guest [02:18:09] Yeah, I've always thought that way.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:18:11] And yeah, it was at one time. It was at one time. Yeah, it was that way and when I was growing up it was that way in the sense that if we needed something or if a family was in need, we would all come together to provide and help. But it wasn't in the way that we all had a very close relationship with each other. That wasn't the case when I was growing up. Before my time things were a lot
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:18:35] more that way and it only continued to get more and more strict. Even after Sam left, it continued to be more and more isolating. And the things that happened with his siblings after he left, the way they started splitting up the families and putting up walls through the middle of homes and saying you're worthy and you're not. So you live on this side and you live on that side. They continue to isolate more and more and more.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:18:59] Yeah, families were. This was starting to happen. It didn't happen to my family while I was there, but families were just ripped apart as you can see in these documentaries. It's unfortunate.
John Dehlin [02:19:09] We'll get there for sure. I was just, yeah, I was trying to. Even the pre warn stuff is crazy, so. But, but sad, but inspiring. It's. It's a lot of things. But interestingly, coffee wasn't forbidden. Correct.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:19:26] So yes, we had the word of wisdom, but we took it as a suggestion, not a commandment. Because, because that's the way it says in the scriptures. It says in Doctrine and Covenants that is meant to be a suggestion or a recommendation. And so my father would tell us, well, it is just a recommendation, but if the Lord recommends something, I would recommend that you do it. But that wasn't but the feel for it. Even throughout the community in our family, father would have appreciated it if we did not drink coffee. But throughout the community most people did. And because of that, so did I. Growing up, when we were on our way to work, we'd stop at a station or something and get a cup of coffee. And so I did grow up in my teenage years drinking coffee and other things in the word of wisdom as well. Some of them people would, would follow, some of, some of them wouldn't. It just depended on which one and which family actually.
John Dehlin [02:20:22] So like what about tea, tobacco, beer? What about mild drinks of barley? Because people, Mormons don't know this. The word of wisdom allows beer, and it allows wine. And the only thing it guards against is hard liquor. And Joseph Smith engaged in all those things, including hard liquor and tobacco. You know, like, so. So what about beer and wine?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:20:46] That was fine. Short answer, it was fine. Depending on the family. Once again, my father would not allow it. But you would see the leaders of the church, other leaders of the church all the time drinking beer or wine.
John Dehlin [02:21:04] I'm stunned. Are you stunned?
Guest [02:21:08] Yeah. I don't.
John Dehlin [02:21:09] Like. I still haven't tried beer.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:21:11] Oh, okay.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:21:11] Wow.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:21:12] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:21:13] Or wine or any alcohol.
Guest [02:21:14] I have not tried beer, but I have tried other alcohol.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:21:17] Okay.
Guest [02:21:17] But, yeah, there's so many things that I'm learning for the first time today that, like, we're just not.
John Dehlin [02:21:24] Yeah, good.
Guest [02:21:26] Like, we don't know about. You know, like, we. We have our own, like, idea about
John Dehlin [02:21:31] the child garments, how it was child garments.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:21:33] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:21:34] I didn't know about the rolling up the sleeves, obviously.
Guest [02:21:36] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:21:37] But beer's okay and wine's okay.
Guest [02:21:38] Yeah, I didn't know that either.
John Dehlin [02:21:40] Yeah. So interesting.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:21:41] Yeah.
Guest [02:21:41] I didn't know you couldn't play with other people's family's kids. Yeah, there's lots of things.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:21:47] And one of the reasons. I would say that one of the big reasons that the leaders didn't want us to mingle with other families is, let's say we were over at the neighbors place playing with one of our neighbors, and one of their daughters walks out, you know, as a teenage boy, and we start liking them or having feelings towards a girl, you know, that could lead to big problems. So that's. I'm assuming that was one of the big reasons that they didn't want us mingling as well.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:22:15] When all the marriages are arranged, they really. I mean, even within families, they weren't allowed to mingle as much with the sisters. And some of his sisters that I'm close to now have said, you know, like, they just wanted to get to go play with the boys, and they were always stuck doing chores. And there's so much separation between. Even within the family, but outside the family. It was a huge fear, I think, for the leaders and especially Warren. Once Warren was in power, it was a big fear of his that anybody would try to find a way to have a relationship without him okaying it and him giving the direction. Because in the early days, I mean, his older brother, they could request earlier prophets, they could request, you know, if they started to like someone from across the room, and they could say, oh, is there any Chance that we could get married. And he had an older brother that him and his wife kind of picked each other. They went to the Prophet and asked permission, and then they were granted that ruling.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:23:13] This was ruling?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:23:14] Yes.
Guest [02:23:14] Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:23:14] And he's still not Warren. Not Warren.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:23:16] I don't know if Warren ever would have approved that. And depending on the, depending on the woman you were asking about, if he thought she was beautiful, he probably would have said denied and took her on as a wife himself. That type of thing happened, unfortunately.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:23:31] Yeah. But with Warren, as it got more strict then the fear and the possibility of them seeing other teenage girls or having any type of feelings was threatening to him.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:23:43] Yeah, I don't know that any. I don't personally know of any man that went and asked Warren for that type of thing, because I, I assume they would have already known that the answer was no because they. We were told, or at least Warren told us, that only God could tell us who we should marry.
John Dehlin [02:24:00] So because porn and masturbation are such a prominent issue within mainstream Mormonism, I, I. As a way of shame and control, I'm curious if those were even topics of discussion for you growing up.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:24:18] So, because everything, sex talk, everything was so taboo, so off limits, we couldn't even think about it. It wasn't talked about. I don't remember. I mean, and maybe other families talked about it more. In my family, I don't remember ever being told or talked about masturbation or porn. Well, okay. There was one time that porn was brought up that it was not okay. In fact, one of the leaders of the church randomly called our home and told Father to round up all of us boys within a certain age group. I believe it was all teenagers to come to the office and to talk to him. And so one of the leaders of the church was on the other line of the phone. I don't remember if it was. I think it was one of the counselors to Warren, and he said, and he went through this list. We have received revelation that some of your boys have been doing things they shouldn't do as a way to obviously try to prove that they're receiving revelation. And they said, have you been watching movies? And, you know, and then we'd have to answer that. Have you seen porn? Was one of the questions. No joke. I turned to Father and I said, what is that? Like, I didn't even know what the word meant.
John Dehlin [02:25:33] At what age.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:25:34] I would have been early teens.
John Dehlin [02:25:36] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:25:37] I wouldn't. I didn't know what the word meant.
John Dehlin [02:25:39] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:25:40] And then obviously Another question was, have you had any relationship with the. With the opposite sex? And so anyway, those were some questions. So that was the first time that I ever heard about porn. So it wasn't talked about in our family because we just weren't even supposed to know what it was, let alone do it.
John Dehlin [02:25:56] And to be clear, this would have been 2003. We're not talking like the 1980s.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:26:00] Exactly.
John Dehlin [02:26:01] You know, we're talking about 2003.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:26:02] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:26:03] The Internet was in full swing.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:26:04] Oh, yes.
John Dehlin [02:26:05] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:26:05] If you had access to it.
John Dehlin [02:26:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I'm trying to think if there's any other behavioral rules. Swearing, obviously was bad.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:26:20] Swearing was bad. But as construction workers, it happened. We would swear. But we. We tried that. We tried to minimize, you know, to what swear words we would use. And around the home, of course, that wasn't allowed at all. No swearing at all.
John Dehlin [02:26:36] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:26:37] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:26:37] Saying the Lord's name in vain was super bad.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:26:40] Yes. Big no.
John Dehlin [02:26:41] No. What about. What about if. Was there ever talk of, like, man, we believe in Warren, but like. Or Rulon, but like, this. This one thing they did made me sad. Or like critiquing and. Or speaking ill of the Lord's anointed.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:27:00] You know, it was something that, if you had those type of feelings, you just kept it to yourself. And the reason for that is, as we have seen in some of these documentaries, Warren could just take you away from your family. So you don't want to talk against him. You don't want to say anything about him that you don't agree with, because he could just take your family right away from you. And so there wasn't really much going around the community of people saying anything because they were afraid it would get back to him.
John Dehlin [02:27:29] So no criticism.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:27:30] Right. We weren't really allowed.
John Dehlin [02:27:32] Did you. Did the adults vote in US Elections? Local, state, or federal elections?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:27:40] The only thing that I remember was local. And so as far as I'm aware, the state and federal. I don't believe so. Not that I'm aware of. Once again, I moved out when I was 18 years old, the month I turned 18. So even if it was. Was available to people, I wouldn't have done it myself, but I don't believe so. I never saw anyone aside from the local. Like who. Like voting to who for who's going to be the mayor of the. Of the cities. Right. Those type of things were. Were there and there were voting booths and all of that.
John Dehlin [02:28:15] What about police and law enforcement and the judicial system, like being subject to judges county judges and county police and those sorts of things.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:28:26] Yes. Well, all of that was local as well. Every policeman that I know of was also flds. So it was all. All the law enforcement in that town was within the church. And I believe the leaders of the church would decide who was going to be the police officers. Obviously people they could trust. Right. And who was going to be. I don't remember if there was a judge out there or not. I don't know for sure.
John Dehlin [02:28:56] Yeah. So, like, I'm just trying to imagine an FLDS mom, you know, child abuse, abuse in the home. How could she have gotten any support from law enforcement or from a judicial system if there was physical abuse, sexual abuse, even murder?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:29:17] Yeah. So they didn't go to any law enforcement. So if there was any problems in the home, then they would go straight to the prophet and they would try their hardest. We know somebody who there is horrible abuse going on in the home. And her mother consistently would just write over and over and over to the prophet. And it took about three or four months of pretty much. You had to be determined to bug them. You had to be willing to have your family taken away in case he just decided he wasn't happy with the fact that you were bothering him over it. It was a huge sacrifice and a huge risk to put your family in that situation. But sometimes the dangers were too big to not do that as a mother. And they would just fight and fight and fight and try to ask the prophet, but there was no going to the police over abuse or anything like that. It was begging the prophet to be put into a different family.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:30:14] Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:30:15] So it was very, very, very sad when it came to abuse. And Sam was so, so lucky.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:30:20] I was.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:30:21] That he wasn't in a family that had to endure that.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:30:24] Yes. I was very lucky to not have to deal with a lot of the things that other people did deal with. The women weren't really allowed to speak up. They weren't supposed to at all. They could get in big trouble for going to the prophet about something their husband did because they were just supposed to obey their husband.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:30:41] Yeah. In one of the revelations from Warren that we had, we had been reading and going over, it says specifically that as a wife, if your husband does something that's not honoring his priesthood, it is your job to not correct him, but to support him and try to help him find his way back. And so there was this huge pressure that, like, if you told on your husband, that wasn't good because that makes your husband look bad. And if he's doing bad things and you're not supporting. Basically, it was just always on the woman's head. You know, if your husband does something, you need to be supporting him better because he's just a man and you need to help him with his priesthood. And there's really no place for a woman to go and be fully listened to and to be protected. Honestly, there really wasn't.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:31:33] Wow.
John Dehlin [02:31:34] Okay. Oh, my gosh. A gazillion questions. So you. You believed in the prophets through which one? Like in terms of LDS prophets Through.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:31:47] Through. I'm sorry, Brigham Young, John Taylor. Through John Taylor.
John Dehlin [02:31:51] Joseph Smith. Brigham Young, John Taylor, yes. So the first three prophets were still prophets to you?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:31:57] Exactly.
John Dehlin [02:31:57] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:31:58] And then after that, it was a whole different line from the mainstream LDS Church, because after John Taylor, it's Wilford Woodruff. And so for us, it was John Taylor and then John Woolley.
John Dehlin [02:32:09] What'd you guys think of Wilford Woodruff?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:32:12] There was a little bit of a sour taste in our mouth. You know, I mean, he.
Guest [02:32:15] We.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:32:15] He was the one that kind of said, okay, we're no longer going to live polygamy. So there was definitely some. Some bad feelings towards him.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:32:22] Him.
John Dehlin [02:32:23] But John Taylor was okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:32:24] He was great. Yeah, no problem there.
John Dehlin [02:32:30] And then Jesus as the savior and, you know, the basic Christian teachings of Jesus and the atonement and the resurrection.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:32:40] Yes, all of that was the same. As far as I can tell, we read the same Bible, the King James Version. And so all of those stories were very much talked about and not as much focused on as the mainstream LDS Church, because it was more, hey, this is what Christ taught. But now we follow this man that makes sure that we continue to do what he wants us to do in our day and age.
John Dehlin [02:33:06] Do you remember scriptures? Like, I always struggle with the idea. Like, even when I was a believing orthodox Mormon, I'm in high school, and I'm looking at how many non Mormons there are in the world, and I divide the number of Mormons by the number of non Mormons, and I get less than one half of 1%.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:33:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:33:25] I'm like, that's. Those numbers are kind of a problem. If God's all loving and all powerful, you had a worse problem because the number of FLDS people in the world by the total number of people in the world is like a super accessible. You know what I mean? So, like, there's a restoration. There's a. There's the restoration that Joseph Smith supposedly did, which was to end the apostasy and then bring the true new church back to the earth. Well, you. That, that the numbers there are problematic enough. Well, you had to deal with the, the, the restoration falling into apostasy and then being restored again through some super obscure branch. How was that thought about and justified? Why did the restoration go into apostasy and need another restoration? Does that make sense?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:34:21] Oh yeah, it makes sense.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:34:23] It definitely does. But they used the leaders of the FLDS Church would actually use that to their advantage. They would say that in the scriptures it talks about how the righteous are going to be very, very few in number and that only the very elect will make it to the very end and prove to be righteous to the very end. So they would use that as, hey, because we are so small in number, it's proof that it's true. Because that's what it says in the scriptures, that there's not going to be very many that are righteous enough to make it to the very end. So they would use that to their advantage. And they would also talk about, well, why would God send so many people to the earth if they aren't going to have the opportunity to learn about him? Why would he do that if he's a loving father, like you say? And so what they would say is, when Christ returns, the millennium will start. During these thousand years of peace, after Christ has returned, that's when the preaching will start. That's when temples will start to be built across the earth. That's where temple work will start to begin. That's when people will start to learn about the fullness of the restoration of Jesus Christ. And so that we were told that as soon as Christ returned, that's when we start teaching the world about it.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:35:43] Yeah, the lds, I mean, it's kind of the opposite, like the LDS with it being right now, we're supposed to get that going and then we're kind of tying up loose ends in the millennium. Right. And helping the people that weren't able to get it. But we're supposed to be trying to spread as much as possible right now. And they FLDS are like, no, only a small group is really meant to have it on this earth and be able to enjoy it. And then everything is really left to the millennium instead.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:36:07] Right.
John Dehlin [02:36:09] Was there a Ronic in a Melchizedek priesthood?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:36:12] Yes, there was.
John Dehlin [02:36:13] And what did deacons, teachers and priests do? Or were those offices a thing?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:36:18] So there were.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:36:21] Hmm.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:36:21] And we would go to certain meetings that would teach us how we should be as boys and men growing up in the church. So we would go to these meetings. On occasion there was also a. Oh boy. They were considered missionaries, but they would just go around the community and teach messages from Warren to families and make sure that the families were following certain rules and that type of thing. So these were teachers and priests in
John Dehlin [02:36:50] the, but in the modern LDS Church, deacons are 12, teachers are 14, priests are 16, deacons pass the sacrament, teachers prepare the sacrament, priests bless the sacrament.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:37:05] So there were some different types of responsibilities. Not so much for the deacons, that was just more of a, hey, you have the privilege of being a Deacon now.
John Dehlin [02:37:13] 12 years old.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:37:14] 12, yes.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:37:15] Okay.
John Dehlin [02:37:15] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:37:15] So I was ordained a deacon, but I never went beyond that because I was never found worthy enough. I guess you could say it was a little different. It wasn't okay, now you're this certain age.
John Dehlin [02:37:25] It wasn't automatic, right?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:37:26] It wasn't automatic. You had to receive a call from God, I guess to the prophet that would then say, okay, now he's ready. And so if you were forgotten about, then you're not ready until you're remembered
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:37:36] or if you're out there trying to, to sneak and hold girls hands, that definitely gets you off the list.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:37:41] Not a good person, I guess. So anyway, I did break some rules, you know, on occasion. So maybe that's why. But anyway, so I never advanced from deacon, but I had brothers that did to teacher and priests. And those were the ones that had the responsibilities of going around town as what they would call missionaries to teach people messages from Warren Jeffs.
John Dehlin [02:38:03] That makes me wonder if Warren ever called missionaries in the LDS church. Sense of like growing the FLDS church through sending missionaries to the world.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:38:13] Not that I'm aware of. Not that I'm aware of. I believe he, he would have been
John Dehlin [02:38:18] smart to do that.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:38:19] Right. He didn't. They didn't seem to focus on trying to get new converts to the church as much as they did just by having lots of children within the church. And I think that's because it was such a secretive organization that they didn't want, want outside influences to come in and mess things up. Yeah, you know, there were some converts, but it was very, very few.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:38:38] Well, and polygamy is still illegal just about everywhere. And so you go and you start preaching that you're just putting a big target on your back inevitably anyway, that's
John Dehlin [02:38:47] weird because I mean, well, when Jesus called 12 apostles, it was go out into the world and preach my gospel. Joseph Smith did the same thing, but that was pre polygamy and then during polygamy. But You. You guys had no missionary, no real meaningful missionary efforts. That's interesting.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:39:03] No, the only thing that I could say that was kind of along those lines was Warren Jeffs did send sermons out to the world. In fact, when I was in Chile, a sermon from Warren Jeffs showed up to the LDS Church, and he was trying to convince people that the end of times was coming. And this was him writing from his prison cell.
John Dehlin [02:39:24] So what about who got called as an elder or a high priest? And what did those offices mean in your church?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:39:32] Not super familiar with it because I was never involved. I do know that people were called into these callings and they would have high callings within the church.
John Dehlin [02:39:40] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:39:41] And they were the ones that would give sermons over the pulpit, but I don't really know aside from patriarch, because I'm familiar with that. I don't really know what all of their responsibilities were.
John Dehlin [02:39:51] Wow. Okay. And was there a first presidency in a quorum of the 12 or a 70?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:39:58] 70 quorum of the 12, not that I'm aware of.
John Dehlin [02:40:02] That's weird.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:40:03] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:40:03] I mean, it makes all the sense because you wouldn't want challengers to your authority, right?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:40:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:40:08] Right.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:40:09] I believe there were several prophets back, but during the Jeff's era, and that's when I came to the end of the picture, there were counselors to the prophet. So there were two counselors, the prophet, there were bishops. So there was a bishop in the Canadian group. There was a bishop in, obviously, the Short Creek group. And I believe there was one more group that I'm not sure where it was. So there was a bishop in these different areas, but it was. Yeah, it was very few leaders that were all the way to the top. And from what I can tell, they were only people that the prophet could trust. Very, very close to him and to know all the information.
John Dehlin [02:40:55] And so the main geographic centers of the FLDS church when you were growing
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:40:59] up were where the main one was in Short Creek.
John Dehlin [02:41:04] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:41:05] After that, there was the one in Canada.
John Dehlin [02:41:07] What part?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:41:08] Oh, my goodness. I was just reading about this.
John Dehlin [02:41:11] Like, southern Alberta. It doesn't matter.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:41:14] It's kind of remote, but I don't remember exactly where it is. Someone watching your podcast will know exactly where it was. We have a lot of Canadians that reach out to us on our channel as well and talk about how close in proximity and that they've seen some of these people. So as far as I know, the people that live in Canada now no longer follow Warren Jeffs. They follow Winston Blackmore, and he was the bishop up There during the time of Warren Jeffs, before they split off. Oh, okay, yes.
John Dehlin [02:41:41] So Canada. Where else?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:41:43] Before. Before 2002, Salt Lake City had a big group, but no longer.
John Dehlin [02:41:48] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:41:49] And then later on there was a place in Colorado State. There was obviously the. The big ranch in Texas.
John Dehlin [02:41:57] El Dorado.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:41:58] El Dorado, Texas, exactly.
John Dehlin [02:42:00] El Dorado.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:42:01] And that was a big part of. I was never a part of that. I never went to Texas or Colorado. I guess I was never worthy enough to go to these places, what they called Zion, to help with that. So I look back now, that was a blessing to not have to be involved in all of that. But at the time, I felt like I was just a bad person. I wasn't worthy enough. And so I kind of felt left out. But I'm very, very grateful that I was left out. Now,
John Dehlin [02:42:31] at the peak of the FLDS church's membership, do we have any sense of how many members there were throughout the world?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:42:39] As far as I'm aware, just over 10,000. As far as I'm aware, they're about 10 to 15,000.
John Dehlin [02:42:48] I've heard a size 20, but I don't know.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:42:50] And that may be true. Maybe there were more different groups. Maybe there were more in Canada than I was aware of.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:42:55] Of.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:42:55] You know, I never went to Canada. I've never been in. In to Canada, so I'm unfamiliar with how big that group was. So.
John Dehlin [02:43:04] But you were saying to me now, Melissa. Right, Melissa. That. That there are over 75 different fundamentalist Mormon sex offshoots with. With 5, 000 or more members. So if you multiply 75 times 5,000. We tried to do the math, but that's something like 400,000 fundamentalist polygamists, you know, members of offshoots. Is that right?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:43:32] Yeah, that's what we've been told recently by a good source, I would say. But we were like, wow, we had no idea that there were that many different groups. You know, there's probably the main five, but there's quite a few in Salt Lake that people are aware of. And then obviously the flds, but. But there's more and more that are continuing to go more fundamental, I guess, from the mainstream church.
John Dehlin [02:43:54] What were the main competitors? Because you hear about Centennial park and then you hear about the Allred group, and you hear about other main fundamentalist Mormon groups that aren't the flds. What are they? And did you even think about them? And if so, what did you think about them?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:44:13] So I thought they were just apostate groups, people that were led Astray and following some corrupt person that they shouldn't be following. That was my impression.
John Dehlin [02:44:21] Did you know the names of the groups?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:44:23] The people I had heard of was the rlds, the Kingston Group, the Allred Group, and obviously the Centennial park group because they were just a mile away from Shore Creek. They're just over the hill. And the Santaniel park group are primarily people that left the FLDS church after Roy Johnson passed away. Because when the Jeffs family took over, power became the prophets. That's when a lot of people said, no, I don't believe in them. This other guy was supposed to be the prophet and so they followed him.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:44:59] So it's a pretty recent break off from the FLDS where a lot of these other ones are break off from the mainstream LDs. Then you have all these different ones. But the Centennial Group is a breakoff from the flds. Break off?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:45:12] Yes. And there's been a couple of those.
John Dehlin [02:45:14] And I'm, I'm guessing if you can't even really socialize with other FLDS families much, you're not having any communication with Centennial Park.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:45:23] Oh, no, they, they lived across, like I say, just very, very close. So sometimes they would come into town to our parks and our, and our grocery stores and things like that, but they would start to dress like the outside world. So we looked at them as these bad people that were dressing immodestly and corrupting our town.
John Dehlin [02:45:42] Were there ever like fights or battles between the groups that you're aware of?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:45:46] No, not that I saw personally. It seemed like if we would, if we showed up to a park and saw some of the people from Santaniel park there, we would just go our separate ways. We wouldn't want to mingle or be a part of that at all.
John Dehlin [02:46:00] Was there any equivalent to anti Mormon literature within the FLDS group of like books or magazines or newspapers or sources of information that would have been challenging the FLDS Church and or the Jeffs that were known to exist, like the Tanners in the modern Mormon Church or frankly like Mormon stories in the modern Mormon Church or the CES letter. Were there websites, books, pamphlets, magazines, figures, people? There were known apostates who were trying to take your church down, you know, that were known.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:46:41] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:46:41] That you were warned to stay away from people?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:46:44] Yes, there were several people that were brought to our attention of, hey, this person I know you used to see him in church meetings. He's bad. Stay away from him. He's preaching anti doctrine. He's this horrible person. Don't listen to Anything he has to say. But as far as the actual literature, nothing I knew of. Once again, I didn't have the Internet, so there wasn't really that option of really scouring the Internet looking for any of this type of thing.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:47:09] It was more of any literature, like anything. I mean, when the entire Internet is against the church, basically, that's kind of what they were told, that that's the outside evil world that will just convince you to go do evil things.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:47:22] That's a good point.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:47:23] Pretty much all media.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:47:25] Yes, that's a good point. Even children's books were considered anti literature because what I mean, when I was really little, we were allowed to read different books. But as time went on, Warren took away every book that wasn't scripture or written by the church.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:47:41] He got rid of the public library there. Warren did. So early on, they were allowed to have books. Warren came into power. No more books.
John Dehlin [02:47:50] Yeah, so, like, if you think about, like, the Tanners or Jeremy Runnels or me, you know, people that would be viewed as enemies of the church, I guess there'd be no consciousness of any enemy to the church because all relationships and sources of information would have been forbidden. So no one could even rise to the level of being viewed as an enemy to the church because they were all just cast out. And the bubble, the control of information and of relationships was so severe.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:48:21] Right.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:48:22] And they did such a good job of the fact that when somebody was cast out, like one of his uncles that we have an interview with, he, you know, when he tried to speak up against Warren and as he left, you know, when they would get up at the pulpit and say, do not listen to so and so anymore. He's an apostate. Well, the entire church and all those people were very good at shutting out whoever Warren said to shut out. So he could be screaming from the rooftops and all the people would just be like, look away, not listening. There wasn't really a whole lot of platform for him to infiltrate back in to try to convince anybody.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:48:57] Well, because the second someone was kicked out of the community, all of a sudden, anything he said, anything he did no longer mattered. He was just bad if he was kicked out. Everything he's going to preach from here on out is false evil. That's just the way it was. So because he was bad enough to get kicked out, so that was the end of him.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:49:19] And they would get physically kicked out as well from their homes, because the homes and the properties were owned by the church. If a man was kicked out, he was no Longer even in the community. So it wasn't even something that they were. They weren't a thorn in the side, you know, sticking around and being able to say anything. They were actually physically removed completely from
John Dehlin [02:49:36] the situation because no one owned their homes. People. Well, generally speaking, towards the end, people didn't own their own homes. They didn't own their own property. They didn't own their own businesses. Their jobs were with members or the church itself.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:49:53] Exactly.
John Dehlin [02:49:54] So the church had full control. Full control of everything.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:49:57] Everything. Even families. Because they would look at it as they all. Even the wives that were given to the man were given to them by the church. So technically, they had this feeling that the church owns my wives, the church owns my children, because everything was given to them.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:50:12] They would say that the women and the children belong to the priesthood. So you weren't your husband's. You did not belong to your husband. You belonged to the priesthood, and so the priesthood could do what they wanted with you.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:50:25] So very, very sad stories of. About families being torn apart, we can get into. But that was after I moved out.
John Dehlin [02:50:33] Yeah. Okay. Well, we're almost three hours in and we haven't even gotten to Warren Jeff's yet. I mean, we've been talking around it.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:50:43] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:50:43] But I just wanted to paint a picture for like. You mean your. Your YouTube channel is called Growing Up Polygamy. And. And I wanted to get a sense of kind of pre Warren life.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:50:54] Right.
John Dehlin [02:50:55] And I think. I think, you know, we've covered a lot of it. What do you think, Jen? Yeah, I mean, I learned a ton.
Guest [02:51:01] I learned a ton.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:51:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest [02:51:03] It was a good setup.
John Dehlin [02:51:04] Yeah, yeah.
Guest [02:51:05] It was good to.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:51:06] Well, great question.
Guest [02:51:07] Kind of know how you grew up and.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:51:09] Yeah.
Guest [02:51:09] What it was like before. It kind of maybe went a little. A little wrong.
John Dehlin [02:51:16] Well, thank you for this. For this first three hours, of course. It's been really beautiful and powerful and shocking and everything.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:51:25] Thank you. I'm glad to be able to get the story out there. It's something that I'm happy to share.
John Dehlin [02:51:30] Okay, so this is part one. We're gonna go use the restroom and have lunch. And part two, Come right back. Part two is going to be. Let's just. We're gonna talk about how Warren Jeffs really ruined everything. That then is what led to you ultimately leaving the FLDS religion, joining the modern LDS Church, serving a mission, meeting your. Your dear wife. And that's going to be what. What part two is about. And then we'll go from there. How does that sound?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:52:06] Sounds great.
John Dehlin [02:52:07] All right. All right. Well, thanks again. The. The YouTube channel is growing Up Polygamy. Thanks again. And, Jen, thanks so much for being here.
Guest [02:52:16] Of course.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:52:16] Thanks for having me.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:52:17] Thank you.
John Dehlin [02:52:18] Yeah, we'll see you guys right back. So don't go away. Come right back, and we'll see you all for part two.
The Rise of Warren Jeffs and Community Changes
Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1618
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. I'm here with Jen Camp. Hey, Jen.
Guest 2 [00:00:08] Hi, everybody.
John Dehlin [00:00:10] It's June 20, 2022, and we're here for part two of what I think is a super interesting, epic interview with Sam Zitting Weisen and Melissa Zitting Weissen, but also Melissa Cowles, which was her maiden name growing up. And they are the co hosts of a really cool YouTube channel called Growing up in Polygamy. Did I get that right?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:00:36] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:00:37] Thanks for having us.
John Dehlin [00:00:38] And we just spent three hours speaking with Sam and Melissa about Sam's upbringing in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the FLDS Church in Colorado City, slash Hilldale. Short Creek, you can call lots of things down in southern Utah, Northern Arizona. Like, I don't even.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:00:56] Yeah, so northern Arizona, southern Utah. Right on the border, actually.
John Dehlin [00:01:00] Yeah. And fascinating first three hours. If you haven't watched that, pause it, go back and listen. You'll get a lot of history about the LDS Church, the FLDS Church, and about Colorado City and Hill Dell. I'm going to get all these names wrong.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:01:17] Shortcreak.
John Dehlin [00:01:18] Anyway, important stuff. And where we left off was sort of just understanding Sam's upbringing with a dad and four moms. One mom biological, but four moms and, I don't know, 25 to 35 siblings, you know, growing up in Colorado City. Did you call it Colorado City?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:01:38] So we were in. On the Hilldale. So we were on the Utah side. So we were. Technically, I was raised in Hildale, Utah.
John Dehlin [00:01:45] And is there a difference between. So there's a difference.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:01:47] There is. So Hildale is on the Utah side, Colorado City is on the Arizona side.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:01:52] And.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:01:52] And it's. It's like one small town right smack on the border.
John Dehlin [00:01:56] Were there reasons why some lived in one versus in the other? Not.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:01:59] Not necessarily. It's just wherever you were assigned to live, I guess.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:02:03] Yeah. And it's really peculiar, too. There's actually a road called you called uzona.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:02:08] True.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:02:09] And on one side is Utah and the other side is Arizona. So the first time Sam took me out, he's like, there's Usona. And I was like, that's so clever. Whatever side you live on, uzona's road or one's Utah, one's Arizona.
Guest 2 [00:02:21] When they say Short Creek, is that the combining of both?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:02:23] That's the combining of both, exactly.
John Dehlin [00:02:25] Yeah.
Guest 2 [00:02:26] Got it.
John Dehlin [00:02:26] I'm not clear on all this stuff.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:02:28] That's fine.
John Dehlin [00:02:29] I'm a bad Ex Mormon. Okay, so where we left off was just kind of, you know, Warren Jeffs was just about to kind of take control. I'll just say really quickly, one of the main reasons we're doing this episode is number one, their YouTube channel's gotten so big, we're getting a ton of people asking us to do this. But also, so we're also kind of semi featuring a new Netflix series called Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey that is about Warren Jeffs and the FLDS community. And it's. I was resisting watching it because I just finished Teal Swan's the Deep End on Hulu and it was really dark and disturbing. And then there's the end of the Banner of Heaven stuff and I'm just like, oh my gosh, like, like depressing documentary fatigue. But Gerardo and Jen told me it was really important that I watch it. And sure enough, I'm three, eight episodes and it's a four episode series and it's really powerful. And we're going to be talking later this week in a panel about both the similarities between Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs and the similarities between the LDS Church and the FLDS Church. We're not going deep on that in this episode because it's more about your personal story. But in this part, we may do a part three. We'll see how much we have left in time because we got to get them to the airport. But in this part, we're definitely going to be talking about how Warren Jeffs kind of really worked to destroy the FLDS community, how that led to your conversion to Mormonism. We're going to talk about Sam, your conversion to the LDS Church, which included an interview with Jeffrey R. Holland to get baptized and you serving a mission for the church, all within a year of your baptism. And, you know, and meeting Melissa. And Melissa, we're going to talk a bit about your upbringing and, you know, you marrying Sam. And at some point, either in this episode or the next one, we'll talk about your faith journeys since then, where you are now, and, and we'll Talk about your YouTube channel a little bit. Well, that will either be in this part two or maybe in part three, depending on time. Okay, so let's jump into this next part. You know, we talked so in the, in the Keep Sweet documentary, something I had forgotten or didn't know was that the Olympics, real turning point, kind of like the 2001 time frame, you, you were born in 1990. For those who missed the first part, you were born in 1990. The Olympics happens around 2001, 2002, where the Olympics come to Salt Lake. And you had mentioned last episode that that was when Warren Jeffs, where Rulon Jeffs, Warren Jeff's dad, was getting old. Warren was kind of starting to lead the church from within while his dad was still alive.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:05:20] And.
John Dehlin [00:05:20] And during that time or soon thereafter, Warren tells everybody who was living in Salt Lake, all the FLDS people that are living in Salt Lake, they needed to relocate down to Short Creek.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:05:32] Correct.
John Dehlin [00:05:33] And that's when there was this influx of people moving into the town, which you talked about last episode. And then. And so let's start kind of around that time period where eventually Rulon dies, Warren takes over and. And how that. How you experienced that transition and then the rule of Warren Jeffs.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:05:56] Right? Yes. And for me it was, you know, having so many people move down from Salt Lake City was kind of exciting. Wow, look at all these new neighbors now that we're going to have. And. And I didn't really understand at that young, young age the significance of. And the changing point that this was for the church as far as so many families had to give up so much. So many families that were born and raised here in Salt Lake City had to just give up their businesses, give up their homes and just without asking any questions up and leave to a new place. And so that was kind of a very difficult thing for a lot of families. For me, I was already living in Short Creek, so it was just, well, hey, here comes a lot of, you know, a lot more people to live around us. Also. A. I don't know, it was just a. I guess it was a little bit of a difficult time in the community. There was a lot of uncertainty what was going to happen happened with the Jeff's prophesying of the end of times and all of that. So it was pretty scary time for us in our lives at that moment. And that is kind of where things started to change a little bit too. It's where Warren started to get a little bit more hellfire and damnation type sermons. And like this is going to happen, that's going to happen if you're not prepared and righteous enough. And so, you know, it was a little bit fearful as a young boy growing up, for sure. But we just, for me, you know, I was raised away to just listen and obey, and that's how I went about it.
John Dehlin [00:07:30] But you grew up like, just like I grew up kind of with Spencer B. Kimball's My Prophet. The prophet of your first 10 or 11 years would have Been ruling, right?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:07:38] Correct. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:07:39] So did you love him?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:07:41] Did you kind of worship him in a way? Yes, I did. And I thought he was the greatest man ever. At a young age, after everyone had moved down from Salt Lake City, one of my sisters actually was called to marry Rulin Jeffs, Warren's dad. He would have been in his 80s and she was in her late teens. So that was an interesting aspect that kind of brought us a little bit closer to the Jeff's family at that time.
John Dehlin [00:08:10] Did he marry. Did she marry him?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:08:11] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:08:12] Oh, wow. So your sister was married to Rulin, Correct? Holy moly.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:08:15] She was, I believe, around his 60th wife.
John Dehlin [00:08:20] And how old was she?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:08:21] I believe 19.
John Dehlin [00:08:24] He was 80. She was his 60th wife. And your sister was 18,
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:08:32] right. In that age.
John Dehlin [00:08:33] Holy.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:08:34] So it was a.
John Dehlin [00:08:35] It was.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:08:35] But you have to realize that in our minds, she was marrying the prophet of God. So to us, it was a huge. We thought it was a huge honor for her to be able to go through this and, you know, and we just assumed that she felt the same. Now, I don't recall ever personally asking her, hey, how was your experience being married to the prophet? Right. So I don't. I couldn't speak for her on exactly how that experience was for her, but for me, I just remember thinking, wow, look at this. He's pulling into our driveway and she's walking out to get into the car with the prophet of God. Like, this is the most amazing thing ever as a young boy. That's just kind of the way it was for me, not really knowing what it all entailed.
John Dehlin [00:09:16] Wow.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:09:17] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:09:18] That takes it to a whole nother level when it's your sister.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:09:21] It does.
John Dehlin [00:09:21] Were you close to her growing up?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:09:23] I was very close, yes.
John Dehlin [00:09:24] Oh, wow.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:09:25] She was quite a bit older than me, so, I mean, we didn't do everything together, but. But she was. She was very loving and kind and always around.
John Dehlin [00:09:33] Was she. Were you ever able to, like, talk to her about what it's like to be married to the prophet?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:09:38] No, not really. Not really. I mean, after she moved out and moved in with him and all of her sister wives, there were moments that she would come back and we would get to visit with her and she seemed happy. And that's. That's as far as. That's as far as it got for me. I didn't really go into any details with her as a young boy. I didn't really know what getting married married really meant, so I just was going with the flow and thought it was a. An opportunity for her to be able to marry someone like that.
John Dehlin [00:10:08] Wow.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:10:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:10:09] And so how was Rulin Jeff's. You mentioned this a little bit last episode, but how was he thought of, like, in the community? What was his reputation? I guess. I guess. How was Kim Jong Un? What's his reputation in North Korea? Like? I guess the person with absolute power. You can't even talk bad about him.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:10:29] Right.
John Dehlin [00:10:29] So I don't even know what this question really means. But how was he thought of?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:10:34] Yes, as far as we were concerned, we thought that he was the greatest man ever. And there were moments where we got to actually go into his home, meet in. In his home and shake his hand and the hand of war and Jeffs. And we just thought it was this most spiritual, amazing experience ever because of the way we were raised and the way we were taught that they were such. These great man that were talking with God.
John Dehlin [00:10:58] So you met Rulon?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:10:59] Yes, shook his hand several times, actually.
John Dehlin [00:11:01] Oh, wow. What was his. Did he have a personality?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:11:05] He was. He could be funny. He would crack a joke here and there, and he seemed like a pleasant guy, as far as I could tell. I didn't. Didn't really look into it too much, but yeah. And I actually helped do the landscape, helped build the block wall around their. Their homes there in Colorado City, or Hildel, actually. So I actually spent quite a bit of time around them for a while. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:11:30] Okay. So what was it like to the community when he died? And was there a sense that Warren was kind of taken over even before Rulon died?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:11:39] Yes. And including some of the women that Rulon was marrying, it seemed like Warren was kind of forcing that. He was calling these women and telling them they were going to be marrying his father. And at this point, Rulon had had a massive stroke, and so he was dealing. I mean, he was having a hard time just surviving. He had to be on oxygen and a lot of things. And so Warren at that point kind of stood up and started taking charge of some of these things like the marriages and that. And he would always say that he was talking for his father, and we believed him. Now, I don't know how much of that was true and how much of it. He just claimed to be talking for his father. So a while before his father passed way, he was already kind of becoming the leader of the community. He was forcing him his way up the chain. And for a while there, he was the only one that would really have any communication with his father. So it's hard to Know if his father was really asking him to do these things or if he was doing it on his own.
John Dehlin [00:12:42] And one of the moments of Keep Sweet that was shocking to me was to hear that there were rumors of Warren Jeffs being potentially sexually inappropriate with his own sisters growing up. And that when someone mentioned that to rule and rule and said, leave it alone, I've got that covered. So kind of like with Joseph Smith, there were early signs of sexual impropriety before he ever really fully took power.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:13:13] Yeah, those were things that I never heard of. Of course, those are things that I'm learning with you on these documentaries. I would have had no idea that that type of thing was going on behind closed doors in the Jeff's home. No idea. So very shocking for me. I thought they were the most amazing man ever because that's what I was taught to believe.
John Dehlin [00:13:31] So what was the reputation about Warren like prior to and once he became prophet? And also was there. Was there a rule about succession within the FLDS church?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:13:46] So not so much as there is in the mainstream LDS church, because it was kind of a God would call the next prophet when the other prophet was coming close to the end of his days. And so that's just the kind of the way it was. We assumed that someone we were hoping that it would be Rulon Jeffs himself would call the next prophet. But he ended up passing away before he ever stood up and told us who was going to be the next prophet. But then there were people within the community that had spiritual experiences and there were people within the community that would stand up and testify that Warren Jeffs was supposed to be the next prophet. And he himself stood up and said that his father had told him that he would be the next prophet. So most everyone in the community believed it convenient.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:14:33] Right.
John Dehlin [00:14:35] I mean, it was a ma. On the one hand, the fact that the longest tenured in the Mormon Church, in the LDS Church, the apostle who's lived the longest automatically becomes president or prophet of the church when the president or prophet dies. And in one sense that should almost be a red flag that God's not calling these people. That it's really a bureaucratic decision on who outlives the other person. On the other hand, it was a. It was a masterstroke of brilliance because avoids the. The possibility of a succession crisis and of a big conflict.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:15:13] Right.
John Dehlin [00:15:13] You guys had eliminated quorum of the twelve apostles, which helped eliminate the possibility of a. Of a succession crisis.
Guest 2 [00:15:21] Right.
John Dehlin [00:15:22] But it's mind blowing to me, number one, that Rulin didn't designate a successor because what if he had died without designating it? But I guess we don't even know if he really did designate Warren. All we know is that Warren got close to him towards the end. And then Warren claims. Did he have any document or evidence that Rulin had made him successor?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:15:43] Not that I know of. Just people in the community with spiritual experiences that we were told to rely on revelation. And we went home after the meeting of Warren telling us that he was the next prophet. And my father gathered us together as a family and he said that he believed that Warren was the next prophet. And that was. That was final word. We all followed and the whole community did as well. Most of the community. There were a couple that didn't agree with it and went their separate ways.
John Dehlin [00:16:14] So they were. Were they kicked out of the community
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:16:15] or either kicked out or chose to move, leave because they didn't want to deal with him as the prophet?
John Dehlin [00:16:20] They probably knew stuff.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:16:21] Oh, I'm sure did a lot more than we knew.
John Dehlin [00:16:24] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:16:24] Yeah. Because we didn't know any of the bad things going on at that point.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:16:28] And it seems like a lot of the higher ups definitely saw warning signs a lot earlier than most of the rest of the community did.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:16:35] Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:16:35] And so those people that had seen the warning signs of just kind of Warren's personality and how he was handling everything with his father, it seems that those people were the ones who, when he declared, they were able to see. No, that's not. Something's up. Something's fishy.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:16:51] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:16:53] So how did, how did you experience? Because there's so much we could go into that's in the documentaries. I don't want to repeat all that.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:17:00] Right.
John Dehlin [00:17:00] Because our time's going to be short. So watch the documentary or we'll cover that another time. But how did you experience changes once Warren took over in your life?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:17:10] To me, it seemed like everything just all of a sudden got a little bit more tense. That's the feeling I got. All of a sudden there was a lot more secretive things going around. All of a sudden there. There were people that were disappearing and called to this so called Zion that they were building up. And I didn't even know what that meant. As a young boy, I thought maybe they were carried off into the heavens to do some kind of amazing job. I didn't know. I didn't know that this place was in Texas. We. We weren't given any of this information.
John Dehlin [00:17:41] So when they were building El Dorado, which is how they pronounced it, El Dorado, when they were building El Dorado in Texas to escape the legal heat that was going on, none of the members knew they were even doing that. Building a Zion and a temple in El Dorado.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:17:57] Not unless you were one of the elite that were called to go and help.
John Dehlin [00:18:01] Wow.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:18:01] And some of these people that were called to go help did eventually come back. And for example, I had a brother that disappeared, and then he randomly came back, but when he came back, he was not about to talk about it. Nothing was to be talked about. So it was still. We just looked at them as these, wow, I guess I'm just not good enough because I have no idea what's going on. And so that was kind of. The vibe is as soon as Warren became in full power, everything just kind of started to shut down a little bit.
John Dehlin [00:18:31] The.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:18:32] The rules became a lot more strict. Everything that was enjoyable that we were doing beforehand was taken away from us. We were supposed to just dedicate our lives to building up Zion and sending lots of money to the leaders of the church to supposedly help build this Zion. And. But we were kept in the dark entirely kept in the dark.
John Dehlin [00:18:51] And you mentioned this last episode, but just to kind of, in this episode, give a sense, you had said that. I mean, I saw in the documentary they outlawed the color red. You couldn't wear red.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:19:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:19:02] You said they outlawed what games. Like, what are all the fun. Like, what were all the things that got outlawed once Warren took over, that made things more strict and more intense.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:19:13] So, no, no. Books from the outside was one of them. We were not allowed to really. We weren't supposed to do any family outings and that type of thing anymore. We weren't supposed to go camping or do anything as a family. That would probably. My assumption now is things that would cost a lot of money because he wanted all that money. And so that just, you know, camping or family excursions, nothing like that was really supposed to happen any longer. Any of the big outings or trips or that type of thing.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:19:48] No celebrations.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:19:49] No celebrations, exactly. So, yeah. And then the rules just became a little bit more strict as far as what even, you know, what you're supposed to do as a family, where you're supposed to work, what you do with your money. All of those type of things just became a little bit more strict.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:20:06] There's stuff like no dogs were allowed. No dogs as pets.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:20:11] Red. Red was. Red for me, was never allowed. Even at a young age. My entire life, I don't remember red being allowed. And they would tell us that it was because it was a sacred color reserved for Christ to return to the earth in red. But because of the way they talked about it, it didn't seem like a sacred color. It came across as an evil color. So when we would see someone with a red truck, we just thought, oh, that's an evil color. That's an evil truck because it's red. For some reason, that's the way it came across.
John Dehlin [00:20:44] And I saw in the documentary, like photos of like what the perfect hair should be. And again, the pastels being encouraged for the only colors that women would wear.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:20:56] Right.
John Dehlin [00:20:57] Is that worn Warren stuff.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:20:59] That was, that was. I didn't deal a whole lot with that. It seemed like that got a little bit more intense once I moved out.
John Dehlin [00:21:05] Okay.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:21:05] His sisters have told us later that, I mean, yeah, the exact way that the hair was done at the end of the bottom of their braid where the ponytail would be, had to be pulled up. Like there couldn't be a little tail at the end of your ponytail. It had to be wrapped up into your braid. No hanging hair because there couldn't be any hanging hair at the bottom, couldn't be any hanging hair by your face. It was all like very specific, even down to the way they were supposed to put on their clothes, which leg and which foot you put on which sock in which order.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:21:36] A lot of these really intense and crazy rules came after he was put in prison. So he was in his prison cell coming up with these rules. And I think that, I mean, it seemed like at that point he just wanted entire control and power over everyone. And because he wasn't allowed to be there and to enjoy anything himself, it seems like he just wanted to take everything away from everyone else.
Underage Marriages and Abuses Under Warren Jeffs
John Dehlin [00:22:01] So part of what I is probably really hard to do and tease out when you think about the most awful things that Warren Jeffs did in the Fldesk community. A huge chunk of that stuff Joseph Smith himself did. Like Joseph Smith married 14 year olds. He married other men's wives. So some of the really, really awful stuff Joseph did. But then there's going to be, I don't know that like Joseph Smith was like taking away wives from one man and reassigning the wives to another. And I don't know how prevalent it, you know, I don't know that Joseph was telling everyone, no one can get married and we get to decide, you know, arrange marriages for everyone. So, you know, let's say 80% of the awfulness Joseph did and they learned from Joseph. Then there's the remaining awfulness What I want to get a sense of is how much of that was Rulon doing or was even being done before ruling versus how much Warren was responsible for. So was. Were 13, 14 year old girls being, were arranged marriages happening before Warren? Were underaged 13, 14 year olds, you know, being married before Warren and we're like families being torn apart, The Lost Boys thing happening, men getting excommunicated and wives being reassigned. Was all that happening with Rulon or before Rulon or did all that start with Warren?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:23:30] It seemed like most of all of those topics you just touched on were done towards the end of Rulin's life when it seemed like Warren was starting to take control and during Warren's time. As far as like the underage marriages, that was a thing that happened years and years ago as well with other leaders of the church because Joseph did it. Exactly. And it seemed like it just continued on over the, over the years. And of course the people that were marrying or know or know of these people that were marrying underage girls, they would tell you that the underage girl was very mature for her age and she was ready and she wanted it. Right, that's what they're going to tell you. But, but it was definitely some, a lot of these things.
John Dehlin [00:24:09] I don't want to call it smiling because it's dark.
Guest 2 [00:24:12] Yeah. But I'm just laughing at the like logic of that.
John Dehlin [00:24:18] Right, that's just using it.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:24:20] Yeah, yeah.
Guest 2 [00:24:21] 12, 13 and 14 year old girls choosing to.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:24:26] Yeah, well, yeah, it's hard. It's so hard as a woman to like hear that, especially if you have a daughter. Another thing, the idea that they're choosing it too, almost all of these young girls. Well, and the boys, they had no sex education at all. And so there are a lot of girls that didn't even know what that marriage was going to involve, anything sexual. So when they say a 12 year old was excited to get married, okay, how many 12 year old girls go, oh, I can't wait to pick out my wedding dress. That does not mean that they are ready and understand what comes with a marriage. And those are two completely separate things. And so then they're going and basically being raped and not knowing what's happening because they have no education on that and they think that God is just going to provide them with a baby when they get married and not understanding what a husband's going to expect or what childbirth is going to be like or all those type of expectations that go with a marriage. Yeah, I can see a 12 year old being like, oh, it would be so great to have a family. That's not the same as consent. And they had no idea what they were wanting or consenting to. If you want to even say that a 12 year old could consent to begin with.
John Dehlin [00:25:34] Right.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:25:35] I have a, I have an older sister, not a whole lot older than me, that somehow or another she found out what sex meant in her teenage years. And I remember her specifically saying, I will never get married, you know, because it frightened her. She wasn't told about anything. And so she found out somehow and she was afraid and she didn't want to get married now after that point. And she actually ended up getting married in her teenage years. I think she was 15, almost 16, and ended up having children right away. So obviously she didn't get her wishes of not getting married after finding out what it was all about. But just to your point of. A lot of these women have no idea what they're getting into when they're getting married.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:26:20] Yeah, there were some. I mean, the knowledge was so limited and they knew so little that there were couples that Sam had heard of that, you know, even if they were a normal age of getting married, then in their 20s and got to marry somebody else for the first time was a first wife and it's a younger couple and they would go in and after a year of being married ask, you know, we're not having children, what's going on? And realizing they didn't, they never knew how to make a baby. And having to have it explained to them, not understanding that anything had to happen for that to happen, because they just believed that once they got married, God would send them a baby and she would become pregnant. And so that's how limited and how little education there was on that. And so, yeah, if that gives any insight into the fact that these girls had no idea what was coming.
John Dehlin [00:27:08] Yeah. So what's the lowest age you ever heard of a girl getting married either while you live there or what you've heard since?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:27:19] Well, the youngest is the one on this most recent documentary of the. I believe she was 13. 12. 12 year old. So that's the youngest I've heard of.
John Dehlin [00:27:27] So it got as young as 12.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:27:28] Yes, but the youngest I personally know and saw happen in front of my eyes was 15.
John Dehlin [00:27:34] Yeah, so.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:27:36] And that was to an older man that she was his second wife. And I believe he was in his late 40s at the time
John Dehlin [00:27:45] and Joseph did 14. So I mean, that's not much older than 12.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:27:51] So there's precedent, right?
John Dehlin [00:27:54] The precedent of when you hear people claim that Joseph, you know, like Brian Hales claiming that over there, Joseph never had sex with any of his wives or certainly didn't have sex. There's no proof of him having sex with any of the polyandrust wives or the underage wives. Do you have any reaction to that?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:28:13] I mean, I. I can't say for sure. I don't. I don't. I haven't done a whole lot of research on it. Melissa might know more than I do about what exactly went. Went down, but I would say that based on my experience, that's not. I don't see that being possible.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:28:31] I would say that there would be no reason for him to. Because the scriptures say what polygamy was meant to be for, which is. Which is to continue to grow the seed of Zion and have more children. Yeah, that's what we were told to. Yeah. So if that was the purpose, you know, any other younger girls could have been married to any person to be able to be sealed, because that's a typical other argument is that, you know, they needed to be able to be sealed to reach the highest degree of glory, and that could have been done with any person of their own age or when they were older. So it does not make sense to me that from the. From the things that were told as to why polygamy was a possibility, that why wouldn't he have slept with them?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:29:13] Seems like there's a lot of excuses out there to why. Why it was. Why it was important or why he was commanded or whatever. But it all comes down to, you know, it's. It's not good enough. It's not. It's not. To me personally, based on the experiences and what I've saw, what I saw now, having a daughter of my own, just. It's just not right. Just. And they're. And I don't see the point. And I don't see it possible that someone is marrying a girl and not having sex with him.
John Dehlin [00:29:44] Was there ever. Like, I know on one hand this all felt normal and natural to you because this is how you were born and this is how you were raised, and this was your entire culture that was very tightly controlled. I do. I do. You know, in. In Keep Sweet, there were some fathers who are like, you know, they say they're no way. And heck, I would have. Hell, they would have let my underage daughter get married.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:30:09] Right.
John Dehlin [00:30:09] Was there. Did you ever hear any conversation about. Yeah, that's a little young. From anyone.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:30:16] Not on. Not that I heard. Personally, and anyone that would stand up against the church. Growing up out there, I no longer trusted them and thought they were bad people because they were standing up against what God wanted. So in my mind, growing up that way, these young marriages, I didn't think of them as a bad thing. I thought that's what we. What God wanted. And so I just assumed that it was. Okay.
John Dehlin [00:30:37] So even you growing up would have never had the thought, 14, that's bad, or 14, that's way too young?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:30:44] No, no. I mean, did you know it was illegal? I. I knew that they did. I knew that they didn't want the government to find out about it. And so I guess technically, yes, I knew it was illegal, but they would just tell us that it's. It's God's will versus the will of the p. Of the. Of humans. Of the government.
John Dehlin [00:31:07] So God's law versus man's law.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:31:09] Exactly. Exactly. So they would just say, well, if this is what God is commanding of us, we can't go against God's word. So I just said, okay, well, I guess that's what we were supposed to do then. Right? So I never questioned it growing up.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:31:22] And again, they always had that precedent of the early saints practicing it, and they were persecuted for it. And how, you know, if they can be as valiant and as righteous as the early saints were, that they're going to be blessed.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:31:35] And they would use that a lot. That. Well, this is the same thing that happened back in Joseph Smith's day. And this is. And they were persecuted for it. And same. It's the same thing. Now that's what they would. That they would use that a lot.
John Dehlin [00:31:47] There's this justification that's been used in the history of our church called lying for the Lord, where it's. It's okay to lie if it's for a righteous purpose, that there's such thing as God approved or holy lying. And I guess the example would be Nephi cutting off Laban's head and then putting Laban's clothes on and pretending like he was Laban. That's, in effect, lying or deceiving. Was there a sense that lying was okay if it was to protect the church? And was there an explicit teaching the lying was okay to protect the church?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:32:21] Definitely was okay to protect. Protect the church 100%.
John Dehlin [00:32:25] To lie.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:32:25] To lie, yes, you can lie. You could try to run from the law. You could. You know, as long as. As long as it was for the church, it was perfectly okay. Now, a specific saying or a quote, I can't think of one right now. But I do remember being taught that it was okay to protect the church at all costs, whatever that may mean.
John Dehlin [00:32:47] Okay, okay, so what else. What other things did Warren make? Oh, well, let me ask this. At some point, Warren must leave Colorado City and move to El Dorado. And. Or there's a point where he's on the run and he's just like, in his car doing all the things he was doing, which we can talk about later. But like, do you remember when he's like, Elvis has left the building when, when Warren Jeff's. Yeah, talk about that.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:33:17] Oh, yeah. So I was, I was a young teenager and I was, you know, everything was kind of going as normal. We had our, our general meetings on Sundays and Saturday morning meetings that we would meet at the meeting house there in town. And so everything was kind of going as normal. And all of a sudden Warren Jeffs was no longer at these meetings. And we were told that it was because he was being wrongly accused by the government that he did these horrible things. Not true.
John Dehlin [00:33:46] And did they say what he was being accused of?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:33:49] No, not really. They didn't go into any details. We. They mentioned, and we just assumed it was based on polygamy. And that's kind of what, that's kind of what we thought it was all based on.
John Dehlin [00:33:59] So they didn't say he's being accused of, of having sex with underage girls or of marrying off underage girls to other people. That was.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:34:06] No, those weren't things that were talked about. So it was just based on, for me, at least, what the vibe I got was. It was based on polygamy, and it was based on the government trying to destroy God's work. That's kind of the, the vibe that was given. And so they were trying to catch Warren Jeffs to put, to put God's prophet in prison, just like they did to Joseph Smith. Those are the things they would say to us. And he was on the run or he was in hiding. And in early church days, you know, you would hear of man leaders going into hiding. That was a pretty common phrase. And so it wasn't, it wasn't that surprising to us.
John Dehlin [00:34:41] Well, that's another parallel. Joseph Smith spent the last year of his life almost identical to Warren Jeffs, running from the law from place to place as, as, as sheriffs or whoever were after him.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:34:54] Right.
John Dehlin [00:34:55] So it's, it's very similar, actually.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:34:56] Yeah. And that, and that's, that's the example they would use. So anyway, he was on the run And I remember one morning, I believe it was a Saturday morning, we were at our meeting and everything was going as planned. And. And we were preparing the. We had opening hymn and then the prayer. The opening prayer. And we all bowed our heads in prayer and we heard this commotion from the entrance doors of the meeting house. And you could hear some people shouting and some banging going on. And we're all like, what in the world? And so as we looked up and heard this commotion, I remember looking up and the stand where all the leaders were sitting was empty. All of a sudden, all of the leaders were gone. And I was like, what? And the FBI stormed the meeting house trying to find them, but they were gone. And they ran out the back door, jumped on ATVs and headed down into the creek onto small trails and got away.
John Dehlin [00:35:55] Whoa. Did Warren have been in that group?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:35:58] No, this was after Warren was already gone. This was them trying to get the other leaders to find out where Warren was. So this was the bishop and the other leaders of the church and they escaped the FBI at that point.
John Dehlin [00:36:11] You were there?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:36:12] I was at that meeting, yes.
John Dehlin [00:36:13] Around what year might that have been?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:36:14] This must have been in. Oh boy. 2004. Ish. 2005. Right around that time.
John Dehlin [00:36:21] Wow.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:36:22] So. But it was interesting though, and everyone. I remember talking to people around the community and they're like, oh, it's so amazing. They got away and they. They had this escape plan and they knew exactly where to go and run out. And anyway, so it's like a proof
John Dehlin [00:36:36] that they were prophets and the Lord was guiding them to escape.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:36:42] And that's why. And that's the reason or one of the reasons I assumed that they would never catch Warren Jeffs. I assumed that God would protect him and that he would never be caught. So this whole time he was on the run. I just assumed that all would be well. Didn't think twice about it. That they would never be able to
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:36:59] catch him as long as everyone was righteous enough.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:37:01] Exactly.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:37:02] Then he went.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:37:03] As long as we were righteous enough.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:37:04] It always depended on their righteousness.
Purges, Excommunication, and Lost Boys
John Dehlin [00:37:06] Okay, so one of the things that marked Warren Jeffs administration was purging the church of his siblings, of other prominent leaders. Do you remember as he started purging any opposition, including people older than him, well respected people of the community. Do you remember any talk of those purges?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:37:33] Well, I was in the general meeting, the first big purge, where he stood up in front of the congregation and had a list of 21 men and read their names off, made them stand up in the Meeting and kicked them out on the spot. Don't even say goodbye to your families. You have been, I believe the show used master deceivers and called them out and said that they were these bad people and these were all highly respected, or not all, but several of them were highly respected men, leaders of the church. And so you can imagine we were all shaking in our boots that what's going to happen next? Right. Most of these men with families were just completely nervous that they could be next because who knows? We didn't really get any details on what they did wrong, just that they had been fighting against God's work and they were no longer allowed to be there.
John Dehlin [00:38:27] Do we know now why he kicked them out?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:38:30] It just seems like it was a power move. Power move to scare everyone else into. Into submitting to him and following his words and commandments.
John Dehlin [00:38:39] So they weren't necessarily opposing him.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:38:41] It doesn't seem like it. I think they just knew too much and were too well respected in the community and he didn't want them there to be to have that influence over people.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:38:49] It seems like anybody who could threaten his power, especially once he was in prison, ended up gone.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:38:57] Yep.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:38:58] Anybody who could threaten him, like.
John Dehlin [00:39:01] And I'm trying to imagine being one of the 21 most respected members of the community, like, being told, leave now in front of your wives and kids. I would think that some of them would say, f off or go away, Warren, or screw you, or let's get this guy. Or they would yell back or disagree or argue like, I'm trying to. Like, if he tried to tell me, you know, leave Margi and your kids, you know, get out of here now. Well, you know what I mean. I'm just trying to imagine if any of them even spoke up.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:39:35] Right? Nobody spoke up that I remember. Maybe there was one or two that tried to say something and they were just forced out. But you have to remember that you are teaching your family their entire lives that they need to follow the word of the prophet. They need to obey him no matter what. And so to have the prophet stand up in front of not just the fathers, but the children and the families of these fathers, all of a sudden, the second the prophet says he has been fighting against God's work, all of his wives, all of his children, now look at him as the bad guy immediately. Because they have been taught their entire lives to follow the prophet and to do what he says no matter what, to keep sweet no matter what. And so these men were put into a position where they had no Choice. Their families now didn't trust them anymore.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:40:29] They had raised their families to be in the position where they would betray them for the religion because that's how intensely they had taught their children to believe it, which is. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:40:43] So I can imagine many of them thinking, wow, I must have really done something wrong. I must deserve this. I'm sure some of them, at least, didn't oppose Warren Jeffs because they believed they deserved to be removed.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:40:56] I. I agree with you. There were some men, I don't know if they're on that list or if they were kicked out at a later time, but there were some that did stand up and say, no, I'm not doing this. This isn't going to happen. And their family, some of their family actually went with them and some of the family stayed behind. So that did happen a little bit. But, yeah, it was most common that. I mean, because nobody's perfect. Right. So if someone tells you you did something wrong, you're going to be able to look back in your life and realize you're going to be able to find something you did wrong. And then you're. And so he didn't really have to pull specifics. He just said, you're a bad guy. And they look back at their life and said, oh, oh, no, I did do something wrong back when, you know. And so I'm sure they were just blaming themselves for every little detail of
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:41:41] their life, especially when they're taught to that their thoughts. You know, even just having a bad thought.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:41:46] Exactly.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:41:47] Is a huge sin. And so an unclean thought. So if you'd ever had an unclean thought in your adult male life, and they can look back and be like, oh, that's what I did. You know, it's.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:41:57] Who knows?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:41:58] Yeah. When you're not told, when it's this ominous. You had us, you've sinned. And yeah, I can imagine if you're just getting called out in a meeting like that, you probably don't even have a second to try to realize what you did before you're being marched out.
John Dehlin [00:42:10] Wow.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:42:11] I can speak for experience. If Warren had told me I did something wrong, I would have been like, oh, you're right. I wasn't perfectly obedient. You know, I mean, I, I did. I guess you could call them, I made mistakes. I guess you could, you could say, but I definitely didn't always follow the rules exactly as they were laid out.
John Dehlin [00:42:28] And again, these men didn't own their property. They didn't own their wives.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:42:32] Exactly.
John Dehlin [00:42:33] I mean, the church, the Priesthood owned their wives and their kids and their property and their jobs, so they had nothing. Were you gonna say something, Jen?
Guest 2 [00:42:41] I was just thinking like if he has the power to stand up and say that to 21 grown men and they obey and do exactly what he said and leave their wives, their kids, their homes, their families, their jobs, like, does a 12 year old girl have any chance, like does any young person in that community have any chance if he has that much control that he could make 21 grown men just leave? Like that. That's, there's, there's almost no chance unless something major happens like that. Like when people say how could the mom allow that? How could, how could, you know, the 15 year old be okay marrying the 80 year old man? You know, it's, they don't, like, they, they don't have any mindset that would make them think otherwise. Yeah, like that just kind of put a, I don't know, put it into perspective a little bit. Like all those things that you're like, how could they think that? How could they do that?
John Dehlin [00:43:52] Yeah, and you're making me want to, Jen, you're making me. That point's so good. You're making me want to bring up another one. The modern, you know, in 2022, the modern apologetic that the church seems to be going with is that these women who were polygamous wives of, of, you know, Mormon polygamous wives of the 1800s, they consented to it, they agreed to it and they, many of them loved it and wrote good things in their journal about it. If I say that to you now, it's like, hey, polygamy is not bad. The, the women who did it, many of them consented to it and even said they had a great experience. Can we trust those narratives or, or in what way might those narratives have been influenced?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:44:38] Go ahead.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:44:39] No, just, just like I was saying earlier with the 12 year old is a perfect example. Like. Yeah. One, they don't know what they're signing up for and no, there's no way to be able to have consent at those, those ages. And there is no way. Like.
John Dehlin [00:44:51] But what about adult women? Oh yeah, say the same thing.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:44:54] Even adult women. Yeah. If you're raised in that environment and you're in those situations, I don't think you have, you don't have a chance, you don't have a chance against that kind of power and that kind of control in your life. And you may think that the only, yeah, it's the only way. And when you've been raised your whole life to think that that's your only purpose in life, which is something that's instilled in them so much and drilled into them that it is their only purpose in life to be in a plural marriage and to have as many children as possible. And that is all they should be living for then psychologically, No, I don't think so. And yeah, Apologetics, when they say that, when they say, oh, well, they consented. Unless you can go back and look and see exactly what the situation was, you can't have. Yeah. You can't have consent even as an adult when you've been put into those type of situations where your entire life depends on you being obedient. I don't feel good.
Guest 2 [00:45:56] Yeah. And just to add to what Melissa is saying, like, I was talking with a friend, messaging with her the other day, and we were talking about these adult women that Joseph Smith married, like the ones that are, were older, at least 18. And, but that the apologetics and the church says, well, he didn't have sex with them, you know, like he, it wasn't like a real wife, you know, it was like an eternal wife or whatever. Yeah, but then they were, weren't allowed to marry anyone else, you know, during their time when they were sealed to him. And it's still, it's still controlling a woman. That's still controlling a woman because it's not. What about her needs? What if she wanted to have sex? What if she, you know, what if she wanted a real marriage? You know, what if she wanted to have kids and a home and a family? And what if that's something she, she wanted? That's still not a good narrative, even thinking of it in that way. And so it's like the, the women's needs or wants or anything within that where the way they're throwing it out there, either way you look at it, it's still controlling women. It's still not caring about their needs or wants or, you know, any, any way you look at it. So, yeah, it's so wrong no matter what.
John Dehlin [00:47:19] And there's also this, you know, when I'm thinking about the FLDS men, they, they had no authority. They didn't own their property, their families could be taken away from them at any time. They didn't even own their assets. They didn't even have a savings account. They were just giving all their excess income to the church. They're powerless. And that's how 19th century women were. Even in normal monogamous heterosexual marriages, women hadn't gotten the Vote. Yet I think, as I understand it, many women couldn't own property. Right. Couldn't vote, couldn't own property, were basically possessions of their husband. So these Mormon polygamous women that allegedly consented and in some cases really valued being polygamous wives, was there so much coercion and pressure that you can't even. They can't be reliable witnesses to their own lives because of the coercion and the. And the complete powerlessness. Does that make sense?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:48:25] Oh, yeah. Well, and to Jen's point too, when she was talking about the fact that, you know, if they didn't have sex, then they were, or if these weren't sexual relationships with Joseph Smith and they weren't able to have children, isn't that cruel in its own way, when the entire purpose that we're told as a woman on earth is to be able to create a family? So if that's something that's being taken away from them by being sealed celestially, that's kind of cruel in its own way. And that's happened a lot since Warren as well, that he stopped all marriages. So you teach these young girls from a young age that their entire purpose is to be a wife and to be a mother and to have posterity, and then you say they can't get married and they can't have children. Well, that's about as cruel as you can be to someone that you've told the importance of that too. And I think it's the same in Joseph Smith's case. If he's not going to have sexual relations and he's not going to let those women experience what it is to be a mother when his teachings very clearly state how important motherhood is, that's cruel in its own right. It's their opinion.
Guest 2 [00:49:29] It's their whole identity. He's stripping them in both cases of their whole identity and an identity that they put in place for them. So it's so cruel in so many ways.
John Dehlin [00:49:45] I'm saying it's awful either way.
Guest 2 [00:49:46] Yeah. Any way you.
John Dehlin [00:49:47] Sex or not, it was still for women.
Guest 2 [00:49:49] Yeah. Any way you look at it, it's just so hard.
John Dehlin [00:49:53] Okay, so. Yeah. So what else did Warren do? Like, and how when all these people start getting purged, how does that affect the environment of the community?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:50:06] It affects it a lot because a lot of these people who are being purged were business owners and they were in charge of a lot of what was going on industrially within the community. So it was a big. Definitely a big slap, I guess you could say Big slap to the community. And a lot of us were fearful. A lot of us didn't know what he would do next. And so there was definitely. The spirits of the community were down at that point, definitely.
John Dehlin [00:50:35] Is it called excommunication when someone's kicked out of the FLDS church?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:50:39] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:50:39] Is that what it's called?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:50:40] For some reason, we've always referred to it as being kicked out, but yes, it's an excommunication.
John Dehlin [00:50:48] And did they have disciplinary councils like we do in the modern LDS Church?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:50:53] In some cases they did. I have heard a lot of experiences and stories from people that were sent to the office of Warren Jeffs. And for example, my cousin Sham Fisher that we did a video with, he had to do that. And they went and he would explain to them what they had been doing wrong and what they have to do to repent for it and all of that. But not always. In a lot of cases, they received a phone call and you're out, and that was it.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:51:23] And by a council, it's not quite the same way that in the LDS Church, it's like an actual council of multiple men in leadership. If they ever did have counsel, it was normally just directly with Warren and
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:51:33] maybe, maybe one other leader.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:51:35] So, yeah, not quite a full council.
John Dehlin [00:51:38] There's so much we could talk about here. But I don't want to lose your story, so let's just. Let's switch to how all of these Warren Jeff changes impacted your FLDX experience to the point of. Of you leaving. So just back up to wherever you want and just tell us that story of your ultimate the beginning to the end of you kind of leaving the FLDS church.
Sam Leaves the FLDS Community
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:52:03] Yeah. I mean, mine wasn't the typical. I wasn't kicked out. I wasn't one of the lost boys or any of that. I wasn't involved in any of that, really. It came down to. There was just a lot going on. It wasn't the same. It wasn't enjoyable to be a part of this community anymore. It wasn't the same feeling of love that you would have in. In my earlier days. And so there was just already this feeling in me that I just didn't really enjoy being a part of this community anymore. And so the day that I left, though, I did not plan on leaving. I didn't plan for it even one day in advance. It just happened.
John Dehlin [00:52:39] Okay. Before you left, like, was there in your mind or in your behavior prior to the day you left? Can you talk us?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:52:50] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:52:50] Were things building? What. How was. How. How did your beliefs or behaviors change over time? Did you talk to anyone? I don't mind you backing up and kind of talking about your descent right before the actual day, because I. I think that's important.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:53:04] You know, the funny thing is, I did back up. That's how much planning I did.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:53:08] There wasn't as much.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:53:10] I will say this. I mean, there were.
John Dehlin [00:53:12] It wasn't a process, like a grudge.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:53:14] Not for me. It just happened.
John Dehlin [00:53:15] Okay, you were 15.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:53:17] No, no, no. I was 18 when I left.
John Dehlin [00:53:19] So through 18 years old, everything was fine. Until one day it wasn't.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:53:25] It wasn't fine. I didn't like some of the rules, and that was one of the main things that I kind of had questions about, is, man, why would we be forced to live this way? You know, why would everything. Because by the time I was 17, almost 18, the community had kind of started to fall in the sense of the. The sense of community that we always had the love and the. And the, you know, being there for each other. It was more just super secretive, and who knew. Who knows what's going on anymore? So I was already starting to just not enjoy the environment.
John Dehlin [00:53:57] Okay. Because at what age did Warren leave the community? At what age?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:54:01] I would have been probably 16, maybe 15. 16.
John Dehlin [00:54:06] Okay. And then so does his leaving the community mark an important downturn in the health and happiness of the community?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:54:16] It does.
John Dehlin [00:54:17] Plus the purges.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:54:18] Right. It wouldn't have been that big of a deal if he had just disappeared. But it wasn't just him disappearing. It was all of a sudden, we had to do all of this stuff for the profit. We had to give a lot of money. We had to work harder to be able to make enough money to give the profit. We had to constantly fast and pray that he wouldn't be caught by the law enforcement and that type of thing. So it just seemed like there was a lot more required of us. You know, it wasn't just like he disappeared and we missed him. I was a young teenager. I didn't really care if he was around or not. Right. I'm sure that his family cared, but it didn't change my lifestyle as far as whether or not he was in front of us.
John Dehlin [00:55:02] And the part that blew me away from the documentary, probably one of the most shocking is when you find out that he's. He's on the run, going to Disney World, going to strip clubs, going to New Orleans, partying.
Guest 2 [00:55:18] Las Vegas.
John Dehlin [00:55:18] Yeah, Vegas. And he's. He's receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars of cash a Day? Yeah, a day in these tomato cans. They get glued shut. And so, like, he's squeezing his members of all their money so that he can party with his entourage of women. Am I. Am I getting that wrong or.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:55:41] Well, I had no idea. And if. If the people that we. If we had known what he was spending some of this money on, we would have been furious. But we didn't.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:55:50] We had no idea it was to build Zion. So because they all knew that there was this place that Zion was being built, it made sense that to build Zion was going to cost a fortune, and they were willing to do that. So it was all under the guise of building Zion. They had no idea that Warren was doing what he was doing. Yes.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:56:06] And so that was. We. That's why we were okay with it. We had no idea what he was up to. So that's one that. That kind of started my. Okay, I just don't like this anymore. I just kind of had a weird vibe about what was going on.
John Dehlin [00:56:17] One more question. Sorry.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:56:18] Nope, you're good.
John Dehlin [00:56:19] And people get mad at me for interrupting, but it's just because I have to understand a couple things more like I'm thinking of a 15 or 16 year old kid even growing up in Colorado City. Like, you're at a store or you happen to see a newspaper or a magazine, or you see some tourists who look like normal, happy, healthy kids. I can imagine. Like, man, I. What would it be like in the outside world? And what if I want to run away or I want to go experience St. George or go experience Cedar City and like, see the. The fun and the excitement? You know what I mean?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:56:56] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:56:57] Like, is that even the. Is that even a possibility of, like, if. If not running away when you're younger, at least sneaking. Running away for good. At least sneaking away to just experience the outside world and the curiosity, Right?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:57:14] Yes. Yes. And about that age of that 16 years, 16, 17 year old. I did experience some of that. I would sneak out a little bit here, and we were out on construction sites a lot, so sometimes we would sneak over to the movie theater and watch a movie, or sometimes we would listen to this evil gentile music called Taylor Swift.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:57:35] I'm not even joking. Hillary Duff.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:57:36] Hillary Duff, Tim McGraw. Yeah, those were. That was the evil music we were listening to.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:57:41] His brothers would have to rededicate their trucks. They would get furious because they'd play Tim McGraw on the trucks and then the brothers would have to rededicate them.
John Dehlin [00:57:48] Oh, man.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:57:49] Me and a couple of my brothers were definitely a Little bit, I guess you could call us rebels. We didn't really like to follow all the rules. So there were moments that we got into big trouble. And because we did want to experience a little bit of the outside world.
John Dehlin [00:58:03] When you say got into trouble, what do you mean?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:58:05] Well, just sometimes if we. Oh, man. Sometimes. When we were younger, getting in trouble in our household meant sitting in a corner and sitting there until father said it was okay to get up.
John Dehlin [00:58:19] He didn't spank you or hit you.
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:58:22] The mothers did on occasion, but that was when we were really little. You know, after that, we got too smart and we started putting books in our britches or something so it hurt their hands to try to spank us because they didn't notice the big book in our pants. Right.
John Dehlin [00:58:37] If you're 15 or 16 and you listen to music you shouldn't or go to a movie, where's the discipline? Does it come from leaders of the Church? Does it just come from your parents? Does it come from peers? How do they discipline you? Or if you, like, get caught dating a girl or kissing a girl or heaven forbid, having sex with a girl? How, how was discipline enforced on teenagers? Especially when you're in construction sites all the time?
Sam Zitting Wyson [00:59:04] So it depended on what the so called sin was, if it was listening to gentile music. And it also would depend on who caught us doing it. If it got to the leaders of the church, they would, in a lot of cases, kick people out for doing things they shouldn't be doing and just separate you from your family and say you're not welcome here anymore. Especially if it was anything to do with sexual sins. Then they would just. There was no hope for you. You just kicked out, you're gone.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [00:59:33] And they did that to a lot of young boys, like living in St. George. Outside the community, there were multiple boys, we would call them lost boys that were taken in by families. Like there were some in my neighborhood, in my ward, a family that had taken in a lost boy. And so when these boys would be kicked out at 14, 15 years old, a lot of times families, and a lot of times LDS families would take them in and then they'd go to high school with us and just try to start having a normal life from that point.
John Dehlin [01:00:00] Yeah, and this is obvious to many, but they had to create lost Boys because they, they would, they had, they, you know, needed a surplus of women to be able to marry polygamously and then there'd be a bunch of men who would never get married. So they had to create lost Boys. They had to kick out generations of young men just for the math.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:00:20] Right, right. No, it's. It's true. And this didn't really happen until Warren started taking charge that these men were marrying up to 80 women. Like, some men were just getting all these wives. And so this wasn't really common until his days.
John Dehlin [01:00:38] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:00:38] Normally, it was more of, like, the max you would see is maybe eight wives or something like that. So anyway, it became to be a bigger problem. So I can see why maybe any. Any boy or any young man that had any type of sin, they would just kick him out because, oh, well, there's another one gone.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:00:56] Yeah. And they were expecting perfection again, because he could kick them out for any type of sin, anything under the sun. I mean, think of a teenage boy, and if he did any one thing, he could kick him out like that. And so when you have that kind of perfectionism, saying, this is the expectation, if you don't meet the mark, then I'm gonna throw you out. It was very easy for him to throw out the boys and have a surplus of women.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:01:21] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:01:22] Okay. So. So if you were caught at a movie theater at 16 or listened to music, you could have been kicked out for that. But, you know, I don't know for
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:01:34] sure if that would. Would get you kicked out. I don't know. I never got caught.
John Dehlin [01:01:40] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:01:43] I did get caught sneaking out of the house once to go meet up with a girl, but it was just to talk and hold hands. So for that, it was more of a slap on the wrist. And I want to take your cell phone away. You're no longer allowed to talk to anyone you needed. I mean, I guess, in a way, grounded for a while, but that would also depend on the family. Right. That was. Thankfully, that was the type of punishment I got. But I did hear of families that would. Some fathers would beat their children, and so I don't know much about that. Thankfully, that wasn't my experience. But I do hear of people that
John Dehlin [01:02:20] dealt with that, and there'd be no police to provide any consequences for that, right? Yeah. Okay. So you were just working all the time, giving all your money away, not having any fun? It was just getting lame, basically.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:02:35] Yes. There was just a point where it just. For someone at my age, it just wasn't something I wanted to be a part of, though I still believed in the doctrine. I still believed that it was true. So my idea was, if I ever move out, I'll probably move out, experience life, and find out for myself that this is as miserable as they claim it is, and then I'll move back. That was kind of the idea, but I wanted to find that out for myself because I wasn't sure. And the way things were happening and the way things were turning out to be in the community, it just wasn't something that I wanted to live that way for the rest of my life. So what happened is, one day, me and several of my brothers were out on a job site in St. George, Utah. I guess I should back up a little bit. We had started this construction remodeling job in a home in St. George, Utah, for a family that we kind of became really close with, and they were great friends, and we were shocked at how happy they seemed. And they seemed like they were just such a great, close, loving family. And so we started to get to know them a little bit. And the more we got to know them, the more I became a little bit surprised to see that they seemed happy, because we were told that if you're not a part of the flds, it would be impossible to truly be happy. Right.
John Dehlin [01:03:58] Sounds familiar.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:03:59] Sounds very familiar.
John Dehlin [01:04:00] Right?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:04:01] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:04:01] Yeah. So. So as I got to know this family, I started to wonder, wow, maybe it's not so bad out here. And so fast forward a little while later, several of my brothers and I were in St. George, Utah, working on some jobs. And as we were working on this job, a girl that was a member of this family that I just told you about came and visited us on the job site.
John Dehlin [01:04:29] Is this a residential construction or commercial construction?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:04:33] Residential.
John Dehlin [01:04:34] So you're building a home?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:04:35] Yes, it was a re. We were remodeling or doing something for this family. Yes, we were doing that, but at this very moment, on this specific day, she. This was a different job.
John Dehlin [01:04:46] No, that's. But that's how you got to know this family.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:04:47] Exactly.
John Dehlin [01:04:48] Was through remodeling their home.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:04:50] Exactly.
John Dehlin [01:04:50] That's dangerous.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:04:51] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:04:52] For them to let you do remodels and meet the families.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:04:54] Well, you know, one of my brothers got a little too close to the family, and he was kicked off the job because my older brother that was kind of in charge overseeing everything, saw that he was getting too close to the family, and he was gone. He had to work on a different job after that. So they definitely monitored it even then, you know, to make sure that we weren't doing something we shouldn't. So fast forward to that day again. A couple of my brothers and I all went out to dinner, and we invited this member of the family with us, and she came and had dinner with us. And after dinner, two of my brothers, being the good boys that they were, ran home as fast as possible or drove home as fast as possible before they got caught. And myself and one of my other brothers and a friend that was with us decided to stick around and to just have a discussion. And we ended up driving over to a park and sat in my brother's truck for quite some time, just talking and just discussing life with this girl that we had.
John Dehlin [01:05:58] How old was she?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:05:59] She was our age, so.
John Dehlin [01:06:00] No, how old was she?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:06:01] Oh, so she would have been 18.
John Dehlin [01:06:03] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:06:04] Uh huh.
John Dehlin [01:06:04] So she's an LDS 18 year old girl talking to two FLDS. 18 year old boys.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:06:11] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:06:12] Ish.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:06:12] Yes. Well, and three of us because it was the two of us and one of our friends.
John Dehlin [01:06:17] Wow.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:06:18] Yeah. And I'm going to leave her name out of it just for privacy reasons. But anyway, she was just this really, I mean she was just seemed so happy and everything was going for her and we were just like, wow. So we built this strong connection with her and as we were talking, we didn't really pay attention to the time until it was, I believe 2am and we realized what time it was and we thought, oh boy, we are in the worst of trouble. If we go back, you know, we're just going to be in a heap of trouble. So we sat there for a little bit looking at each other and light bulb, right. We had this brilliant idea, what if we just don't go back? What if we just stay out here and you can imagine that our friend, the girl we had become close with, kind of looked at us like, you guys are crazy. Like, what are you, what are you doing? Right? But when she, when she realized that we were actually being serious, she said, well, I mean, if you need somewhere to crash, you can sleep on my couch tonight. And we, we agreed to it for some crazy reason. And of course at this point we, our phones started, we had cell phones and they started blowing up of phone calls from my mother, my father and his mother. He's a half brother and also our friend, his parents, I mean everyone, they were just trying to call us to find out where we were at this point. And you can imagine that we didn't know what we would possibly tell them if we answered the phone. We just thought, man, I mean, we kind of made this crazy life decision right now.
John Dehlin [01:08:00] Is that called something when someone just doesn't come home and leaves? Was it called leaving? Disaffecting, apostatizing? How would, how would they have Described that act of not coming home.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:08:13] I would say apostatizing would be the way to look at it and would just put us in the worst of terms with the family because we would choose, because we had chosen to leave. So I guess leaving or apostatizing was the two ways of looking at it.
John Dehlin [01:08:26] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:08:27] And so what we decided to do is just not answer our phones. Well, we actually did text back and said, just so you know we're okay. And then we just turned our phones off because we didn't know what we would say.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:08:39] It's a mother's nightmare. Like every time he tells this story, I'm like, you poor mother. Like your 18 year old boy just doesn't come home one night and turns up his cell phone.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:08:47] Yeah, I have had a chance to talk to her over the phone since then to apologize. Now that I have kids of my own, I'm like, I am so sorry for the way that I. The situation I put you in. But because of the religious aspect behind it and all of that, there wasn't really a good way to leave. There wasn't a good option here. It would have been a lot smarter for us to save up some money first, at least to plan this out a little bit better, but we didn't. So that night we slept on the family's couch that had been really good to us and great friends to us. The next morning, you can imagine, this girl's father walks downstairs and sees us on the couch and was like, what in the world? He immediately knew where we were from because of the way we were dressed. So that was a giveaway. But anyway, that was. We decided to move out on Saturday. The next morning was Sunday. And this, come to find out, was a very good LDS family. And they said, well, around here on Sundays we go to church. You guys want to come to church with us? And so we had just moved out of this very extreme religion. And to me, I kind of thought, oh, as a joke, why not? This could be funny, right? Like, like what could this possibly be like? And so we agreed and they rounded up a lot of different church clothes for us from different neighbors because I was so tall and had big or have big feet. And so they were trying to find shoes that would fit me and a shirt that would fit me and try to get me dressed up a little bit for the occasion. Anyway, so we went to church that morning and that was my first introduction to the mainstream LDS church.
John Dehlin [01:10:38] And just to be clear, all your clothes would have been at home. You had a Did you have a car or transportation?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:10:44] We had a truck.
John Dehlin [01:10:45] You had a truck?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:10:46] My brother did.
John Dehlin [01:10:47] And then you didn't have a ton of money and all your clothes and possessions were at home.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:10:51] Yes, I probably had 20 bucks in my wallet. Probably similar for the other two friends.
John Dehlin [01:10:58] What about a bank account, like a checking or savings account?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:11:00] Not at that time. I did not have one. No.
John Dehlin [01:11:03] With all that work you'd been doing for all that long, you never had savings?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:11:06] My older brothers had bank accounts. I don't believe they had savings. Savings and financial advice wasn't really given to us, so that wasn't something I thought much about.
John Dehlin [01:11:18] You didn't have a 401k?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:11:20] I had no idea what that was.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:11:22] All their savings was just waiting for tithing calls. Because it's a little bit different than the LDS where you just give 10% of your income as you get your income, you can pay 10% as it goes along. They had what was called tithing calls, where someone, a leader would stand up and say, every man over the age of 18 needs to give $2,000.
John Dehlin [01:11:40] So tithing was reinterpreted from 10% to what?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:11:44] To whatever is required.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:11:45] Whatever was asked.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:11:47] Whatever we ask of you, you need to give it to us. Whether it was several thousand dollars or whatever the case was, it was just.
John Dehlin [01:11:54] Was there an explanation of why they. Why it changed from 10% to just however much we want, whenever we want?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:11:59] It was Warren's idea and claiming to. Claiming that it was being used for the building up of Zion.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:12:04] Well, and they thought they were living the higher law of consecration as well. Right. If everything was consecrated together, then any money you earned should be for the community and the building of Zion. So sorry, random fact thrown in there. But they didn't really have a lot of savings. From everything I've heard the only time the men really saved money was that so that they would have enough to be able to give when tithing calls happened.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:12:25] Right. Or we would just immediately spend it on whatever we wanted, whether it was trucks or beds or beds or beds or fancy leather jackets or whatever the case may be. We didn't really save money at all. It was more just either we spent it or we gave it away.
John Dehlin [01:12:43] And Jesus talked a lot about to his disciples about leaving everything behind and following. So they could use Jesus own teachings to kind of justify you giving everything to the church, right?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:12:54] Oh, yes, definitely. Yeah. And they would use that. The teachings of Christ or the law of consecration, all of that was used to encourage us to do that.
John Dehlin [01:13:03] Just following Jesus, basically.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:13:05] Right?
John Dehlin [01:13:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, that decision, like, I'm thinking about how like traumatic excommunication was for me and my church, you making that decision to not go home and spend and spend the night and shut off your phones and you can't. Like, can you go back at that point? How are you going to be treated? You're not. It's not just like, in my case, I was being kicked out of my church. You're. You're making the decision that's going to get you kicked out of your family, your community and your faith and your job and everything. And not just, but cut off from all of them, like shunned kind of Scientology or Jehovah's Witness level shunning. Like, so, like, and it's just like, oh, this is cute girl and this nice family. So I'm going to do it in like eight hours. Like, can you talk more about, like, what that felt like? Because you're almost talking about it like it was kind of a trivial, flippant, hey, let's do this right. But it seems so severe, what I would understand the consequences to have been, right.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:14:15] And we, we didn't really think it through, like I said. And it was. It was very, very difficult. And the next morning I called my mother back and I tried to explain to her that I wanted to live a different lifestyle. I wanted to experience different things and not be stuck in what was being taught out there. And as you can imagine, it was just crying and pleading, how could you possibly do this? You know what we've taught you is true. You know this is the truth. How could you possibly leave it behind? And it was very, very, very, very difficult. As a teenage boy, I tried to make light of the situation the best I could and pretended that it didn't really bother me that much, you know, but in the end, it was very difficult. There were moments where even several months after I had moved out, that I almost went back or at least tried to, just because I missed my family. I didn't know how to live this life outside of the community. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know how to move on. So there were moments that were dark and it was very hard not to move back.
Building a New Life and Joining the LDS Church
John Dehlin [01:15:25] How do you build a life at that point? You're 18, you have nothing. How do you build a life?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:15:31] Well, we didn't really know what building a life meant. All we knew how to do was work. So that's what we did. We would travel from Nevada to northern Utah to wherever we needed to be to work on the construction jobs that we could find. We had some connections because of the construction that we had done prior. So we would just call the connections that we had and try to find any kind of work we could to make a little bit of money. And that's really all we did at that point. The family that allowed us to sleep on their couch that night, they had a casita in their backyard they allowed us to stay at on occasion if we needed it. And they were there to help us with anything we needed. If we needed something, they would encourage us and direct us on how to kind of help us on our feet again. Right.
John Dehlin [01:16:21] How do you feel about that family and what they did for you?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:16:27] Words are hard to express. How much I love them and am thankful for them. Yeah. Sorry.
John Dehlin [01:16:41] So that's. I mean, that's the first time I've seen you get really emotional here. Not about the hard stuff, just about the love of a faithful Mormon family that was there for you in a time of need.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:16:55] Yeah, it was. They were very loving, and it was. I mean, they really changed the course of my life and encouraged me to. To better my life and try to fight for. For something to live for. Because leaving your family behind like that, it's. It's not easy. And so. I needed something to live for, and they. They helped me find that, and they encouraged me to find a new dream and follow that dream. And, man, they.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:17:46] They.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:17:46] They became my family. They really did.
John Dehlin [01:17:52] Yeah. Yeah. So thank. Thank you for being so vulnerable, and it is inspiring. And, you know, now we're talking about my people, right now we're talking about your people, Jen, your people. And that's what makes it so complicated is because these are good people,
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:18:18] some of the best people I know for sure. And they. I believe they're just living the best they can and are trying to help out anyone they can along the way, is what it seems like to me.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:18:30] And they're still their family now.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:18:32] Yes. They took me and one of my brothers in and were just there for us for anything we needed, and we ended up joining the church. They asked us if we wanted to talk to the missionaries, and it was a hesitation for me. It seemed like my brother, this isn't the same brother that I moved out with. About four months later, another one of my brothers left as well. And the other brother that I moved out with, he wasn't really interested, and I can't blame him. Leaving one extreme religion and being interested in another is not really the Natural thing to do, most people would think, but for me, having this family that took me in and the love that I felt around them, I felt that it was the spirit talking to me through love, that this is what I needed to do for my life. And it seemed that the Mormon Church was the most familiar thing to me as well, because it was a lot of the same doctrine, a lot of the same teachings originated from the same prophets. So for me, it was kind of easy to go to what I felt was the most familiar. And so I did agree to being baptized into the Mormon Church.
John Dehlin [01:19:56] And you talked in the car from the airport about the things the missionaries told you that seemed natural versus the ones that weren't natural. Do you want to tell that story?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:20:08] You should have seen the faces of those missionaries as they were teaching me the missionary discussions, because I was not the normal investigator. That's for sure.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:20:18] The missionary's dream. Every missionary would dream of having an
John Dehlin [01:20:22] investigator like that tell why tell the story?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:20:24] Well, I was raised with believing in a lot of the same things. And so when they started their conversation of, hey, do you believe in Jesus Christ? Of course. Yes, of course I believe in Jesus Christ and his teachings. Okay, what about modern day prophets? Of course I believe in modern day prophets. No problem there. Okay, what about Joseph Smith? Definitely, definitely believe in Joseph Smith. One of the greatest men I know. Okay, Book of Mormon for sure. Got one right here. No problem at all. So Book of Mormon was definitely all the articles of faith, all of those things. I was like, oh, yeah, I got those memorized. And so they were, as you can tell, they were kind of chuckling and shocked and didn't know how to handle it. And as teachings went on, it came down to, do you believe that President Monson is the prophet of God? And that's where I was like, whoa, wait a minute. I mean, okay, I was fine with everything up to this point, but now we're changing the man that talks to God here. Hold on. Right? So that was the moment that took me some pondering and thinking about, you know, because I had spent my entire 18 years of my life just bearing my testimony of these Jeffs ruling Jeffs and Warren Jeffs, that they were the prophets of God, that they were speaking directly to God. And, yeah, so it was definitely a mind change there. And it was a little bit difficult to admit that, but eventually I did and I said, yes, I feel okay about that.
John Dehlin [01:21:59] So at this point, Warren Jeffs hadn't done anything to you? No, you hadn't. You hadn't been kicked out, you hadn't been excommunicated. You chose it. So what would have allowed you to lose your faith in Warren Jeffs, and
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:22:15] that was why it was so difficult, is I hadn't at that point, I had not lost my faith in Warren Jeffs. I didn't leave the FLDS because of a doctrine that I didn't agree with. I left because of the lifestyle, and I didn't want to live that way anymore. So I still, at this point, wasn't 100% sure if I was going to return at some point, because I found out that it is the truth, and I was trying to figure that out.
John Dehlin [01:22:40] So you got baptized, probably still believing that Warren Jeffs was a prophet.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:22:45] I had kind of moved past that. I would say I still had some hesitation that I had kind of convinced myself that I believed that Thomas S. Monson was the prophet. But in the back of my head, subconsciously, I can honestly say I still felt that Warren was a prophet of God.
John Dehlin [01:23:07] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:23:08] So it was tough. Tough. It was ingrained in me at a very young age.
John Dehlin [01:23:13] Exactly. And then you add to that that you had been taught that the LDS Church was literally the great abominable Church of Satan. How did you gain a testimony of the LDS Church and of Thomas S. Monson when you had been raised to believe they were the sellout, you know, sons of Perdition, basically,
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:23:35] I don't think I gained a testimony before being baptized. That was something that came after. But with time, I gained 100% believing that it was the truth.
John Dehlin [01:23:48] So why'd you get baptized?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:23:53] I felt like it was the best thing for me at that time. And I thought that. Well, though I don't 100% know everything at this point, I assumed that eventually it would all be made clear. And like I mentioned before, through the love of this family that took me in, I felt that that was the Spirit talking to me and telling me that it was the truth.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:24:17] Leap of faith, really.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:24:19] It was. It was.
John Dehlin [01:24:23] Yeah. And I'm just. It. This is a really delicate thing to talk about. But you both got so emotional talking about this family that took you in. But you were also in a very vulnerable situation when they took you in.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:24:43] Oh, yes.
John Dehlin [01:24:44] And of course, their motives were pure in taking you in and in introducing the missionaries to you and in taking you to church. From their perspective, it's the one true church, and they're just helping you come to the truth.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:25:01] Right.
John Dehlin [01:25:01] But the truth is you were super vulnerable. Super vulnerable and influenceable, if that's a Word to what they were wanting for you.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:25:15] Yes, I agree. I think they had the right intentions. I think that their intentions were pure. As you would know, growing up in the church and serving a mission yourself, that at least for me personally, it was all with pure intentions. I believed it was true and I was just trying to help everyone else have the same truth that I had. So I believe that was where they were coming from. I don't think they were trying to take advantage of me in any way. But you're right, though, it was. I was in a very vulnerable spot in my life.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:25:51] I think too, just knowing what a good family it is, I think they also saw an opportunity to help him get through what all the emotions were and everything that was going on in his life. This was a way for him to positively make it through. Through. Because you see a lot, especially growing up in St. George and seeing a lot of the lost boys, they can really become lost in a lot of different ways.
John Dehlin [01:26:13] Describe that.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:26:15] Well, being in the FLDS religion, we weren't allowed to do much of anything. So a lot of these boys, when they were forced out of the community, they would try to experience everything. And when I say everything, I don't mean just the good things. So a lot of these boys got caught up in drugs and you name it, they kind of wanted to experience it all. And a lot of them ended up not. I don't know about a lot, but I know of some that ended up in prison. I know of some that unfortunately took their own lives because of the situation they ended up in.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:26:49] Well, and a lot of them too. When you leave and you've been told your entire life, especially the ones that had been kicked out, it's even a little bit harder mentally in the sense that you believe that you're going to hell and that there is. If you're an apostate and. Or a son of perdition, like there's nothing worse and you have eternal damnation. And so what does the rest of this life matter? What does it matter what you do or what you do to your body or what you do? Like, just in general, what does it matter when you're already damned? And so a lot of place can go that direction. So I think too, the family was in a way saving him.
John Dehlin [01:27:28] Totally.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:27:28] Yeah. Yes. And. And really, I mean, I owe a lot to their kindness as far as what I was able to. The walls I was able to break through at the time and. And just. I don't know, it was very hard to build up self confidence and try to move past the believing that I was too. This is a harsh word, but too stupid to learn and to grow at that point, because I didn't feel like I had enough of an education or a knowledge about life in general to really move past this place that I felt that I was stuck in.
John Dehlin [01:28:10] Yeah. Well, ex Mormons from the LDS Church should understand, because none of us, Few of us, experience the extreme shunning and rejection that you did. And we are. You know, many of us became depressed and suicidal without the extreme shunning. So we should be able to really understand how difficult it must have been for you.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:28:41] Right.
John Dehlin [01:28:42] The other analogy that I have is the LGBTQ community. There's this research done by something called the Family Acceptance Project out of San Francisco that tried to figure out why there was such an LGBTQ suicide epidemic. And the number one contributor to LGBT suicide was family rejection. Wow. And so that. That's it. If. If. When LGBTQ people were experienced high levels of rejection from their family, they were three times more likely to engage in risky drug. Drug use, three times more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior, and something like eight times more likely to attempt suicide. And I would guess that the Lost Boys would have experienced very similar levels of depression and suicidal ideation.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:29:44] Right. And on top of that, kind of being in their place of not really learning much about the outside world, to then all of a sudden be forced into that outside world is also something that would be very difficult for them to try to understand. Okay, now what do I do? What is this new life all about? How do I move on from this? So it's a challenging place to be in. I can only imagine.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:30:12] LDS Church in particular, really is able to give people a sense of purpose. So if you go from now. I don't have a sense of purpose. I have no idea which direction I'm going. And then, not only are you able to then have a family who loves you and have that sense of purpose that the LDS Church gives you. You know, it gives kind of a perfect trifecta.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:30:36] Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:30:37] Of hope. Really.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:30:39] Yeah. So, yeah, it's. It was. It was a tough time of my life for a while there, but with some help and kindness of family and friends, I was able to move past and. And kind of set my sights on a new life. And that was to. Well, first of all, I had the opportunity actually to sit down face to face with Elder Holland.
John Dehlin [01:31:07] Yeah. So explain that. How did Elder Holland, Mormon apostle, prophet, seer, and revelator Jeffrey R. Holland, how did he end up Conducting your baptismal interview.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:31:17] It wasn't so much my typical baptismal interview questions type that you would see from another mission, but it was more of a we want you to understand. And at this time, anyone that moved from the FLDS community and wanted to join the LDS Church had to be interviewed by an apostle. So that's what took me there. And that was primarily, or at least I was told it was primarily to make sure we understood the differences between the two beliefs, to understand why the LDS Church no longer practices polygamy, and just to make sure that we understood. And I can imagine that it was partly because they didn't want us to join the church and then go start teaching false doctrine about the polygamy and the beliefs that we came up with. Right. So I assume that's probably part of it.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:32:14] Yeah. They don't want him going, running around and wanting a second wife on them or anything. So.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:32:19] And during that interview, I mean, I will say it was a, it was a great. Both my brother and I went and, and it was a great experience. We were able to sit down with him and he was, seemed to be very loving and kind to us. And as we were wrapping up, can
John Dehlin [01:32:34] you tell us like, what questions he asked you, how he treated you, how you felt, what you talked about? That's if you're comfortable. That's fascinating.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:32:42] It really wasn't, it wasn't the, that long of an interview is quite short. While we were sitting in the waiting
John Dehlin [01:32:49] room with the church headquarters in Salt Lake. Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:32:52] Yes. So we went to church headquarters. As we were sitting there waiting for him to be available, we ran into a couple of the other apostles and got to shake their hands as well. And so, I mean, overall it seemed like. Well, to be honest, I didn't realize how big of a deal it was because I was so new to the church. I kind of thought, oh, maybe everybody gets to meet the apostles like this. I didn't really understand the significance of what was happening.
John Dehlin [01:33:19] Did you think he was an important, like super cool, important dude? Did you even know anything about him?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:33:23] Yes, I had heard of him. I had seen some general conference talks from him. And so I knew that he was high up in the church and that he was an apostle. I just didn't realize how rare it was for people to sit down on a one on one conversation interview with him. So. But it wasn't a super long interview. He just asked us how we were doing, how we felt about the church, and if we had any questions. And then he asked if we had any questions about polygamy and kind of why the church no longer practices, and just basically wanted to make sure that we understood the difference between the two religions, why it was important that they were different, and answer any questions we might have. And that was really. That was the gist of it. Yeah. And at the end of our interview, he looked at us both, smiled and said, well, you two would make some fine missionaries. And I kind of looked at my brother and was like, yeah, for sure. And then after we left the meeting, we were like, what does a missionary do? So we weren't super familiar with what missionaries, other than the fact that missionaries had taught us, but we didn't really understand what a mission entailed, like, what exactly it meant. But. But after that, because he mentioned that to us, we were curious and started looking into it. And both my brother and I decided that we wanted to serve a mission. So I believe the rule was you needed to be a member of the church for one year before you could serve. So we waited out our year, and we were both on our. After that time, we went to the mission training center and left. Left on a mission to Chile. Both of us, actually, both went to Chile. We did different. Different missions in Chile, but both in Chile.
John Dehlin [01:35:07] And that's interesting because Elder Holland has a special relationship with Chile, you know, because he lived there for three years when he was cleaning up all these fake baptisms, you know, that had been performed there.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:35:18] It's interesting because the moment we arrived at Chile, we started hearing about all the things that Elder Holland did while he was in Chile.
John Dehlin [01:35:25] And did you know he closed over 30 stakes while he was in Chile?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:35:29] We heard. We heard things. We heard those stories. Yes, we did.
John Dehlin [01:35:33] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:35:34] After I understood what they were saying in Spanish, then. Then we learned about those things.
John Dehlin [01:35:41] Your.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:35:42] Your.
John Dehlin [01:35:43] Your current name is different than. Than the name you grew up with. Do you talk about that publicly? And. And did that name change happen before or after your mission?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:35:53] It was after my mission.
John Dehlin [01:35:55] Okay, we'll wait and talk about it. If you even want to talk about it.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:35:59] I mean, it's. It's. We can. We can touch on it.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:36:03] Sure.
John Dehlin [01:36:03] Okay. So. So. Wow. So you just did construction. Did you live with this other family or did you live on your own in an apartment? For that year prior to going on
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:36:14] a mission, we were a little bit. So for the first. So before my other brother moved out that joined the church with me, the brother that I moved out with, we jumped around all over the place doing construction work. Eventually ended up back in St. George, Utah, where we both got an apartment together and the friend that moved out with us, all three of us got an apartment together.
John Dehlin [01:36:37] Oh, I didn't ask. Did you go back to get your stuff? Did you go back to say goodbye to your family?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:36:42] We skipped a step here. Sorry. I've told the story so many times, I forget some pieces sometimes. But we. The next morning we contact or we. I called back and spoke with my mother and of course she's not going to understand and all she can do is beg for me to come back. And so we said that we would come back later that day on Sunday and gather our things and meet with Father. And of course Father was going to try to convince us to stay. And so we showed up and gathered our things, which is a blessing that we were even able to do that. If that were to happen later on, I don't think that we would have had that opportunity because things got more strict after that. But we did have a chance to just go out there very briefly, gather our things, just what we could fit in the back of our truck. Had to leave my nice big fancy bed behind. And on our way, after we had showed up, Father showed up at the home as well and sat down with both of us individually and tried to see what we were thinking and why we were possibly trying to give up everything that we knew was the truth. And so it was. It was a hard conversation to have. At that point, though, our minds were set and we were convinced that we wanted to live a different life.
John Dehlin [01:38:02] How'd you tell him? What, what did you say? What reasons did you give him?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:38:06] Oh, man, you remember? It's hard to remember. And thinking back, they weren't any good reasons. They were just nothing that was good enough for him anyway. We didn't have an inspiring revelation about anything. It was just. We feel that we need to. We don't like what's going on here and we want to live a different lifestyle.
John Dehlin [01:38:28] Was it like Warren's, things are weird with Warren type of excuses or.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:38:32] We didn't really call out Warren because we knew at that point, well, geez, at that point I still kind of believe that he was the prophet. And I knew that Father did, so I didn't really want to bash on him, but it was just more based on. In general, we don't want to live here anymore. We don't want to be a part of this.
John Dehlin [01:38:50] And did he cry? Was he sad?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:38:52] He was upset, very upset. Mother, of course, was just in tears. And I don't Know if he cried later when we left, but he tried to keep a straight and stern face to convince us that what he had taught us our entire lives was still true and how could we possibly walk away from it? So it was. It was a very awkward and very. It was just a difficult conversation to try to have, so.
John Dehlin [01:39:23] And what about the conversation with your mom? Anything else you want to say about.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:39:27] We weren't allowed to talk to her. About what? No, because once. Once it was. Once it was clear that we had made that decision. She wasn't allowed to really say goodbye or anything.
John Dehlin [01:39:38] What's that about?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:39:39] It's just a part. It's just the way it is. If you choose to leave, you're not supposed to have any type of connection or relationship with your family from that point on.
John Dehlin [01:39:49] Have you seen your parents in person since that moment?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:39:54] I have. So at that time, it wasn't quite so strict. So for a short period of time before I left on my mission to Chile, on occasion, I was able to drive out there and have short visits with them. So I was able to, in a way, say goodbye. But it was never good enough, of course, you know, I mean, my mother, to this day, if I had an opportunity to talk to her today, she would just beg that I come back. That's all she could say to me. That's all. She still fully believes that that's the only way to return to live to our Heavenly Father.
John Dehlin [01:40:29] Did you get to say goodbye to your siblings?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:40:31] No.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:40:32] No.
John Dehlin [01:40:33] Was that. What was that like for you? I'm assuming you were close to some of your siblings?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:40:38] Yes, it was very difficult, of course. And thankfully since that time, a lot of my siblings have also moved out, and I do have a relationship with them. But at that time, it was difficult, but it was also not. Not much I could do about it because they knew that or they no longer trusted me because I had made that decision, and so they didn't really want that relationship with me. Or at least based on past experiences that I had when my older siblings moved out, that's kind of the way it was.
John Dehlin [01:41:13] So of The. You said 25 biological siblings that you had, is that right around.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:41:19] Well, 35.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:41:20] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:41:21] I lose track. Sorry.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:41:22] That's okay. 35 that are all from his father.
John Dehlin [01:41:24] Of the 35 biological children, how many are you aware of that have left the FLDS at this point?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:41:31] It's about 16, I believe. Yes, about 16.
John Dehlin [01:41:34] So about half.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:41:36] Close.
John Dehlin [01:41:36] Yeah, close to half and half are about still in.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:41:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:41:40] And you're in touch With a lot of those.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:41:42] Yes.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:41:42] Everyone that's left.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:41:43] The ones that have left, I'm in contact with. Yes.
John Dehlin [01:41:47] That must be hard on the moms.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:41:49] Oh, my gosh. Well, and especially for the moms that are still fully believing in it. They believe that all of their children that have moved out have chosen a life of damnation, and they don't want to be a part of the great work of Zion and of God. And they also believe that because of the choice we made, we are not going to be able to live with them in the next life. And we have given up that eternal family that was promised us if we continued to follow the teachings of the prophets.
John Dehlin [01:42:21] So the teaching of eternal family is so beautiful and sweet until it falls apart and then it's violent and a nightmare.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:42:29] Yeah.
Guest 2 [01:42:30] Heartbreaking.
John Dehlin [01:42:31] Yeah. For a woman that gives her whole life to raising these kids and then half just leave. And not only. Not only do half leave the church, but she has to be cut off. They have to be cut off from half their offspring for the rest of their lives.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:42:48] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:42:49] Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:42:49] So then they don't get to have a connection and relationship in this life or the next.
John Dehlin [01:42:53] Jen, what would that be like for you to be cut off from half your children for the rest of your life in theirs?
Guest 2 [01:43:00] That would be hell to me.
John Dehlin [01:43:01] Right?
Guest 2 [01:43:01] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I know, like, this is a strict teaching. It sounds like in the flds, where it's, you know, when they're gone, they're gone kind of thing, and you treat them so. But I know families in the mainstream LDS that this is still taught. Like, this is still practiced. Also, if they stop believing they're not invited to family things, they, you know, they're cut off, too. I don't think it's like the FLDS where it happens most of the time, but I think that teaching is still within our, you know, doctrine. It's been taught before, and people still follow it to some sense.
John Dehlin [01:43:43] It made me go from feeling like the eternal family's teaching is one of the most beautiful teachings of Mormonism to the most pernicious and psychologically violent it can be.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:43:53] Definitely. And even within the mainstream LDS Church. I mean, yes, you're not necessarily shunned from coming around your family anymore, but there is that. There is the different feeling. There's a different vibe that if you who don't believe what they believe now, it's changes. It can change relationships.
Guest 2 [01:44:13] Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:44:15] And I mean, yeah, I can't imagine as a mother, having to not have your children, but I mean, and his mother has said things like, you know, every time it rains, just know that those are my tears for my children that have left. Things like that that are just kind of a. I don't know,
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:44:39] some of this part of my life, I feel like I've hidden into the. Hidden so far down into my brain that I sometimes may come off as emotionless. But it was not easy. It was a very difficult time in my life to not be able to be a part of my family's life and to feel that I wasn't welcome anymore because I didn't want to live those rules.
Reconnecting, Marriage, and Faith Transition
John Dehlin [01:45:08] And how fortunate you were. Like, for many of us maybe, who aren't LDS anymore, we're like, whoa, you went from one the frying pan into the fire kind of thing. Or from the fire in the frying pan. But how, honestly, if we're just trying to be objective, how fortunate you were to have something to replace the FLDS church with, even if it was Mormonism?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:45:31] Yeah, absolutely.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:45:32] It was.
John Dehlin [01:45:33] It.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:45:33] It was what I needed. It was what I needed at that time. At that time, it was the. The perfect solution to my slump, to my pit that I felt like I was stuck in. Yeah, I needed a way out. And I feel like that was. That was the solution for me at that time.
Guest 2 [01:45:50] And that's what's hard, I think about, like, even this job here in Mormon stories is that, you know, how beautiful and gracious and like, these people are. Like, you know, the FLDS people or the mainstream LDS people, like, within the religion, like the family that took you in, you know, they're just beautiful people trying to love everyone, trying to help people, you know, and then. And then there's this part that is just hard because then there's the part of, like, I don't know how to explain it, like, the part of shunning or the part of not being enough or the part of, you know, the fear of messing up or, you know, not being included or losing your community and your family and all these things that come into play with that, you know, beautiful, loving story and the eternal aspect of it that's hard that, like, being here and kind of doing the truth telling of history and. And things like that. Like, for most people in my life, I don't. They don't even know I work here, and they don't know the truth claims because, to be honest, like, I don't even. I don't want to hurt them.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:47:26] Right.
Guest 2 [01:47:27] Like, there's this, like, protecting them because they're such good people. And knowing, like, the shattering that I had to go through, finding out all of that, and then the rebuilding that had to happen after that, that you almost want to protect them from that, too. And so there's this, like, fight that kind of goes on within you, you know, like what to say, when not to say. You know, how do I love them and hold space for them where they are, and how do I help them? You know, maybe see things a little differently? You know, in, like, everyday conversation, there's, like a. There's like a tug of war with my heart sometimes, you know, talking to people and even being in this space. So, yeah, it's just. It's just hard because there's. There's a certain amount of pain each way that you have to go through, so.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:48:27] I agree.
John Dehlin [01:48:28] Beautiful. Thanks. Yeah, it's just complicated. So complicated.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:48:35] Yeah, it is. It's. I don't know that there is a. An easy. An easy way to explain it other than. It's just you don't want to hurt the people that you love, but you also can't deny what you find to be true. And I know that there's a lot of people out there that just keep putting these things that they find out about either hide them away, put them on the shelf, however you want to call it, because they don't want to deal with the heartbreak that comes through letting your family down, or for them to look at you differently or to not accept you. And though it may be different in different religions than the flds, it all has similar tastes, that if you suddenly don't believe what they know to be true, Something changes. Something changes when they. When they realize that you don't believe
John Dehlin [01:49:35] what they believe anymore, they flip a switch and you're. You're no longer one of them. You're. You're other. Right.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:49:43] Well, and I feel like, too, like, growing up, I remember thinking, you know, I'd rather have someone be super angry at me than disappointed in me. And I feel like a lot of times with whatever religion it is, when you start believing differently, it's that. That feeling of disappointment to me is what, like, aches the most, more than I wish they'd just be mad at me, I don't know, or be willing to have, like, those tough conversations. But the disappointment in knowing that you're hurting someone over what you feel or believe, that's tough.
John Dehlin [01:50:19] One of the most common things that happens in the LDS Church when you lose your faith is your instinct is to want to go back to your siblings, to your parents, to your children, to your friends, missionary companions, and deconvert them to tell them all the reasons why they shouldn't be there anymore and to try and get them out with altruistic intent. And I want to get to quickly your mission and then to you, Melissa, but did you ever have a desire to go back and deconvert your parents, to convert your siblings and rescue them?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:50:57] Well, at this point in time, the stuff that Warren was doing wasn't so well known and the splitting families in the middle wasn't done as much as it happened later on. So I didn't feel that my family was in any danger per se. And because I was so freshly out of that belief, I could fully understand where they were coming from in. In looking at me differently, like I understood why they didn't want me around because that is the exact same way I felt when I was out there, when someone else decided to leave. So I understood where they were coming from. So in my mind, I knew that by going, if I tried to go out there and convince them of anything, all I would do is drive a bigger, deeper wedge between us. So I didn't ever really have that desire at that time in my life to, to go out there and try to convince them of anything other than what they believed was the truth because I just knew that it would make things worse.
John Dehlin [01:52:01] And in some sense you still shared a lot of their beliefs, right?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:52:04] Exactly. At that time. Still. Exactly. So I, I wasn't sure that I wanted them to believe differently at that point.
John Dehlin [01:52:10] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:52:11] Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:52:11] Especially I feel like when you feel like there's no harm being done at, at that point, if you feel like, okay, well, my family's not being harmed by their beliefs, then okay, it's okay that they believe differently than me as long as they're happy.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:52:25] Right.
John Dehlin [01:52:26] Wow. Okay. So is your mission even worth talking about, given all the other things we could talk about?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:52:36] I'll touch on. Was a big part of who I am today. It was very difficult. Coming from a place where I didn't really have much of an education to then learn a new language was pushed me way outside my boundaries and kind of forced me to do something that I never thought possible. And so that was a big, big part of helping me build some self confidence and to realize, oh, I can do something, you know, if I put my mind to it, I can actually do it. Like, before leaving on my mission to go to a college or to receive any type of professional education was just way outside of the realm of possibilities. It was never going to happen in my mind. In fact, there were times where going across St. George, driving across the town of St. George City, I would go the long way to avoid the. To avoid the college campus in town, because as I drove by and saw the people there going to college, it made me feel so inferior to them and that I was just worthless.
John Dehlin [01:53:43] Because you say you're homeschooled, but what type of education does an FLDS kid get?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:53:50] Depends on the family. Depends on how much time you put into it before you leave on a job and go to work.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:53:55] I'd say yours was probably, what, fourth
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:53:57] grade, fifth grade, probably around there. Maybe a little higher in some of the. In some of the topics, subjects, but maybe even less in others.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:54:05] Most of the homeschooling kind of ended between 12 and 14.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:54:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:54:10] So like science and math and English and social studies.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:54:16] Not much math. I always struggled with. And because it wasn't a priority, it was something that was just a struggle up and for forever up until I put some extra time and thought into it.
John Dehlin [01:54:32] Tara Westover, in her book educated, talked about not learning until after she left that the holocaust had ever happened. Have there been things that you've learned about in terms of history, world history, u. S. History that you didn't ever learn growing up that are kind of really big things?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:54:50] The landing on the moon.
John Dehlin [01:54:53] What do you mean?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:54:53] Was one of them? We were. I mean, I guess this is still a debate out there in the real world too, so I guess.
John Dehlin [01:54:59] I don't know.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:55:00] But I didn't believe that we had landed on the moon, that anyone had set foot on the moon. I don't know for sure. It's hard to determine what I was taught out there and what I learned on my own after moving out.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:55:16] At this point, I was gonna say I can have a little bit of insight because we'd gotten married when Sam was halfway through his college. And I remember there was history classes where he would come home and, oh, he was just, like, giddy, excited to be learning so many things. And I remember, like, Columbus. Oh, remember that book you read on Columbus? And he was so excited to learn more about it, which I always super admired, you know, because you can't help what you were taught when you were younger. That wasn't up to Sam, But I always admired and just loved the way that he yearned for knowledge and wanted to know more. And so that was something that I kind of got to see towards the end of the. Towards the end of his degree is like, getting to see those history lessons or science lessons or whatever it is, and he just loved it and soaked it up. Because a lot of those things that I would take for granted, the things that I learned, you know, at a younger age, and then to see him learn them for the first time as an adult was, like, super awesome to watch.
John Dehlin [01:56:12] Yeah, that's cool.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:56:13] So just to wrap up, as far as the mission goes, it was a great experience. It helped me in a lot of ways to push past some of these barriers that I felt that I had. And to. For someone to. Regardless of what. What the organization is, for someone to set aside time and just focus on other people and serving others, I think is a great thing. It's a great idea for anyone to experience that. I'm not saying it has to be a religion or it has to be any specific type of organization, but just anything that allows you to set aside yourself for some time and focus on the needs of others and give yourself that opportunity to just, you know, fully focus on serving other people around you, I think would benefit anyone. So that's one thing I was able to do on my mission because I really gave my mission my full heart. I was 100% in, and it was a good experience to be able to serve so many people and kind of be there and help out those of Chile.
John Dehlin [01:57:21] Were you either encouraged or discouraged from telling other missionaries your background?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:57:28] Not really. Either way. Honestly, there were some that I discussed it with and others I did not, but it was not really. I'm trying to remember if my mission president even knew where I was. I think he had an idea of my background, but I don't remember any type of discouragement or encouragement either way.
John Dehlin [01:57:47] But you get a sense. The church was super proud to have brought you in, so to speak, because you were a former Florida.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:57:54] Oh, okay. No, you're right. As far as I did get some encouragement on sharing my testimony. Yes, I got a lot of opportunities and a lot of encouragement to share my testimony because I was a convert and because I came from an interesting background and then chose to. To join the church. Yes, that part I was encouraged to do.
John Dehlin [01:58:11] Right. But the FLDS part, was that emphasized or kind of not discussed?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:58:16] Not so much.
John Dehlin [01:58:17] Yeah, we're not proud of that per se.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:58:21] Yeah, that wasn't anything that I was ever encouraged to talk about.
John Dehlin [01:58:24] Yeah, I can see why. Okay, so great mission experience, and you probably had a lot of baptisms, I'm guessing.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:58:34] I did. I did. I mean, it was. Don't get me wrong, it was stressful. I always felt that I maybe wasn't doing enough or being good enough or trying hard enough, but, you know, but I was as far as what I was able to learn, what I was able to accomplish, which then gave me the self confidence to return from my mission and say, I want an education and to jump right into it, both feet and hands and went after it. It was not easy, oh my goodness. To try to start at a. Well, I got my GED to begin with and then after that just started at college. And the first few classes were. I'm surprised I passed them. By a miracle, somehow I passed them. But it got easier and easier over the years and I was able to graduate with a bachelor's degree with a really great GPA actually.
John Dehlin [01:59:22] Where'd you go?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:59:23] Dixie State University.
John Dehlin [01:59:25] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:59:25] There in St. George.
John Dehlin [01:59:27] Yeah. Okay. So, wow, that's amazing. What was your bachelor's degree in?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:59:32] It was a. Well, it was kind of a two part, but it was in business marketing. In Spanish.
John Dehlin [01:59:38] Okay.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [01:59:39] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:59:39] What was it like to date?
Sam Zitting Wyson [01:59:42] Okay, here we go, the fun part. Well, there were a lot of things that were very. Oh, man, very difficult, I guess you could say, because I came from a place where the men were in charge. And so to come out into the real world and try to create these relationships that were equal, you know, it took some changing, a mindset change. But as far as wanting to date, that was very natural. I felt like I was in a good. At a good age where I wanted to start going on dates and wanted to get to know women. But the first few dates were failures, definitely. I'll admit that she had a slight experience with some of that.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:00:28] Did we start sharing our story?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:00:31] I didn't know how to act around women. I mean, as you can imagine, I wasn't allowed to. And so I don't know how I came across. Sometimes I'd like to be able to go back and see how I was acting. But obviously it was a challenge to begin with.
John Dehlin [02:00:47] Well, let's maybe at this point go ahead and jump to Melissa's. Yes, an unfortunately abbreviated version of Melissa's story.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:00:56] That is just fine.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:00:57] She does have a very interesting story.
John Dehlin [02:00:59] But maybe we'll have you back another time because I would not at all mind doing that in full. But because you guys have to catch a flight, let's back up. And Melissa, tell us whatever you want to about your Mormon upbringing all the way through to your first date.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:01:14] Okay, so I'll give you the Cliff Notes version. So I was a BYU baby. My parents met at byu. My parents were Both converts, which was always something that growing up, I felt like was important and made me a little bit different because I always felt that my family was a little bit more like, accepting of other people and other people's beliefs because they had come from those places. None of our extended family was lds, and so, I don't know, I just always felt like we. We didn't really judge other people as harshly as what I saw a lot growing up in Utah. My mom had an amazing conversion story where she was on her deck in Chicago and said, God, if you're there, I need to know right now. And knock, knock, knock. The missionary showed up at her door.
John Dehlin [02:02:06] Your mom?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:02:06] My mom.
John Dehlin [02:02:07] Your mom's a convert.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:02:08] My mom's convert and had a very powerful conversion story. And so, you know, and then my dad was kind of forced into it at a young age, about 12, when his father got remarried. And my grandpa was never lds, would never be lds, but his new stepmom was. And so he kind of had to do that to please the stepmother. But I feel like growing up with converts as parents, we were just a little bit more open minded, I guess, like I said, than a lot of the other Mormon community that I was raised in in St. George, but had an awesome childhood. So good. I feel like I was that kid. I love rules, and so I love getting to be obedient and to have a very strict checklist. Like, my mom always jokes that, like, I came out as a baby with a pen and paper and checklists, like, that's how I work, that's how I operate, roll. And so the LDS church was fabulous for me growing up because I could check the boxes and know it. I love knowing exactly what was expected. Having the high standards, feeling like I hit those standards was like, oh, so good for me. I loved it. Did I don't know. All the things, so all the things, you know, getting the varsity letters in seminary, making sure I memorized all my scripture mastery and getting my young women's recognition, like, at 12. I mean, like getting it done in a year and just wanting to excel and getting my Faith of God award as early as I could. You know, all the, all the things that could make me feel like I was excelling as. Yeah, as a Mormon, as a Latter Day Saint. So really had. Everything was good. Had great friends, great influences. Feel like I was a pretty picture perfect Molly Mormon all through high school, everything. In college, I had a really good friend. I had lots of friends that weren't lds because again, my parents were never one of those that said, oh, you have to only be hanging out with Mormon kids, you'd see that sometimes in Utah. But my parents were not like that. So I had lots of different friends of lots of different backgrounds and beliefs. But my best friend in college, high school is where?
John Dehlin [02:04:21] St. George.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:04:22] In St. George, yep.
John Dehlin [02:04:23] Okay.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:04:24] And then I started attending at Dixie State. It wasn't a university yet, but when I went it was Dixie State.
John Dehlin [02:04:29] But you were kind of an orthodox believer all through high school, seminary.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:04:33] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Did all the things. Was a really good teenager. Like, I didn't have a single. I can't think of a single rebellious
John Dehlin [02:04:42] thing that you didn't, like, roll up your sleeves or anything.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:04:44] No, no, no. I mean, I was that girl that, like, I played tennis and traveled all over the country for tennis, and I would wear cap sleeves on my tent, like, even in workout attire and, you know, like, very tried to stay extra modest and have the longest tennis skirts I could have possible, and tried to make sure that if I had an opportunity to spread the gospel to friends, because I was one of the very few Mormon girls that traveled all over the country for tennis.
John Dehlin [02:05:11] You would have been good at tennis if you're traveling all over the country playing tennis.
Guest 2 [02:05:14] Yes.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:05:14] Yeah, I did very, very well in tennis.
John Dehlin [02:05:17] So, like, rankings kind of stuff.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:05:19] Oh, yeah. I always maintained from the time I was 12 to the time that I was 16, I always stayed in the top 20 in the seven state region and then normally nationally in the top 200. What? Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:05:31] So you're one of the top 20 tennis female tennis players in seven states.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:05:36] So, yeah, it's called the intermountain region. It was like Idaho, Utah, Colorado, Nevada and Arizona, maybe.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:05:42] I feel like there was another deal.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:05:44] But, yeah, traveled all over country. I loved it. I love traveling, I love tennis. So it was the perfect thing. Growing up, had super awesome parents that made it happen even when it was a struggle on them. And it was. It was great. But that gave me a lot of opportunities to share the gospel. And I. I felt like I knew everything like that sounds. I feel like the older I get, the less I know. But, you know, I felt like I had all the answers. I felt like when people would ask me questions about what Mormons believed, because, again, there was only a couple of us that were at that level of tennis that were LDs. And so I felt like I always had answers for them and good answers, good, solid answers. And it wasn't until I was in college and I had. My best friend was not LDS and just had an awesome family and she was from Colorado and she's still one of my best friends to this day. And I remember.
John Dehlin [02:06:38] So there are a lot of Gentiles, I'll say gentiles, non, non, LDS at Dixie.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:06:45] Quite, I mean, quite a few. You had a lot of people from Colorado or California that could afford like out of state tuition at Dixie was still pretty cheap. So they could be like away from their families a little bit further but not be super far away, you know, and have a good experience. So yeah, there was, I'd say there's quite a few. When I went, it was known more as like the party school too. So a lot of, a lot of LDS kids from northern Utah would come to Dixie to be a little bit further away from their parents and be able to do rebellious things. That was still not me. I had this solid, you know, the group of friends and just really awesome people as friends, which almost became a little bit of hurt to my testimony because as I made like my best friend and she was this awesome, amazing girl from an awesome, amazing family and was not lds. And I remember having my first questions as to eternal families and thinking, I just don't believe that God's going to keep her apart from her family in the next life. There's no way that this family who has a loving, you know, mother and father together and they're, you know, her and her brother, there's no way that they're going to be separated. And I remember having questions like that as I continue to be good friends with people who weren't members. But I would always just go to my return missionary buddies because I had a great big group of friends that were all returned missionaries and I would talk to them until I felt better about whatever my question was and I would just kind of, you know, move along. And I, yeah, I don't even, I'm
John Dehlin [02:08:20] trying to think of like, where to go. How many years were you at Dixie?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:08:23] 2009, 2010. So I got my associate's degree.
John Dehlin [02:08:28] And did you play on the tennis team at Dixie?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:08:30] So interested I got a full ride academic and I chose, I was a little bit nervous about playing tennis because I knew that I wanted to keep up my GPA really well. And so I chose my academic scholarship over the tennis scholarship they gave me. So I had the two options and I said, you know what, I really want to focus on academics. I've been a little bit burnt out from playing at such a high level for so many years from such a young age. And I was like awesome. If I don't have to depend on tennis for college, I'll do that. I'll work and kind of go that route. So I had got my associates and I was all set up to go to the BYU accounting program in the fall. But I graduated in December and I was working for In N Out Burger
John Dehlin [02:09:09] at the time and not an official sponsor of my.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:09:15] No, I do love them. Yeah, exactly. But I do love them so much. But I was working for In N Out at the time and they said, hey, would you go into management? Would you be interested in that? We think you'd be great in management. And then just for the time being until you get into your program and then you can just step down and be like a part time manager while you're at byu. And I was like, that sounds amazing. It sounds perfect. Yes. And I became a manager and I just fell in love with it and ended up moving to Northern Utah like the plan was. But when it was time to go to byu, I decided that instead I wanted to continue working. They were paying me as much as my friends that were graduating BYU, what their jobs were paying. And I was already making that at 20. And so I was like, you know what, let's go this route. Because I knew that I always wanted to be a stay at home mom. And so I thought if I buy some properties, have investment properties and stuff, I can stay at home with my kids later. Rather than putting a career on the shelf, I'll have these investments on the shelf and then I can stay home and have, you know, an income that way. And so I kind of. It was all planned, you know, for being able to be a stay at home mom pretty much from the beginning,
John Dehlin [02:10:25] but I'm already regretting that we have to cut your interview short.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:10:29] I know. I'm trying to get. I'm trying to get in.
John Dehlin [02:10:31] I want to give you four hours.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:10:33] I know, I know.
John Dehlin [02:10:34] I'm not rushing. That's not me rushing you. That's just me saying, I can tell there's a lot to talk about.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:10:39] I would love. I mean, seriously, anytime. I would love to come back because. Yeah, I am trying to give the shorter version.
John Dehlin [02:10:45] Yeah, you're being really good.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:10:46] Thanks.
Guest 2 [02:10:47] But.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:10:48] But yeah, so I moved to Northern Utah and was working there and definitely had experiences in northern Utah as a single girl that had me questioning my faith back and forth on and off. Had different experiences where, you know, I would make a mistake and have to go talk to the bishop.
John Dehlin [02:11:10] Dating.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:11:11] Dating experiences. Yeah. Like I said, I didn't have very typical rebellions in like all through high school or anything like that. But I did like dating and I did like boys and I liked to kiss them. So that would start getting into problems there things and. But I would see the way that like bishops were handling those situations and like, I would be, you know, punished or not be able to take the sacrament and the boy that it happened with would have no consequence at all. And I remember, I mean, I'm making good money at this time. I was like the only kid in BYU housing that like, had a career and was working full time. And I remember feeling bad about not having paid tithing for a little bit. And I thought, I'm going to redevote myself to paying tithing. And I went in and had an interview with the bishop and I said, just so you know, I want my temple recommend. And I am devoted to starting to pay tithing from right now. And I just want to say that out loud so it's an outward commitment and I can show you. And he said, well, you can either back pay six months of tithing and I can give it to you now, or you can pay for six months and I can give it to you later. And I remember that that was one of the first things that I thought. So you're saying I can write you a check for my temple recommend. That just didn't feel right. Like, I was so sincere of heart for wanting to be the best I could. And I felt like here I am going insincerely saying this is something I'm struggling with. I want to move forward. And I really thought that I would be given, like, grace or an opportunity to just improve. And he could see. But it felt really, really like a checklist. And it felt like I could buy myself one. And so, I mean, I did it again. I love lists. I love a challenge. So I paid my tithing for six months, got my temple recommended, and I remember not using it after that because I felt like I had earned it. And so now I was good enough and I could, you know, that was all. But I remember specifically that time not using it because I had earned the prize. I guess you could say I was now worthy enough and that was the part that mattered to me. But, yeah, went back and forth through different spiritual things and started looking into polygamy funnily enough. Funnily is a word.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:13:38] It's funny that she married me, you know, since that was a big problem.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:13:43] Yeah, Started looking into polygamy. Did not feel good about it. Did lots of research did not feel good about it. Really came to the conclusion that I did not think that polygamy was from God. I couldn't necessarily explain all the rest or why, where the Book of Mormon came from or exactly how I felt about Joseph Smith. I just felt really strongly that polygamy was not of God.
John Dehlin [02:14:06] Were there sources like, you probably didn't read Todd Compton's book.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:14:10] No. So at that time, I was just reading off of lds.org Honestly, going there
John Dehlin [02:14:15] for the gospel topics essays, or at
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:14:18] that point, yes, I think I had read one. I can't remember if those had been out yet.
John Dehlin [02:14:22] They would have been 2013, 2014.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:14:24] Yeah. So it wasn't. It wasn't. At that point, I was like, no, there wasn't gospel topic essays. I was just researching, finding out more about how many wives Joseph Smith had. I did a lot of family history up there. When I first moved up there, I didn't have any family. So every single week I'd go and do my own family history up in Salt Lake because it was something for me to do. So just learning about his wives, the situations, and. Yeah, I'd say so. It was the fall of 2013, was the first time that I really felt like, I don't know if I can be a part of this church. It's just not adding up. And I remember the first time that I said to someone the words, I was raised lds. When someone asked if I was Mormon, I said, oh, I was raised lds. And that was like, the biggest thing in my heart, like, to be, like, I just said that out loud. That, like, makes it official that I feel like that's how I was raised, instead of that's what I am when my whole life, that's what I had been, you know, and that was, I don't know, an interesting thing.
John Dehlin [02:15:24] And so in your mind, by 2013, you kind of didn't believe the church was true anymore.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:15:31] Yes. And I don't know how much detail to go into
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:15:37] you feel comfortable with.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:15:39] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:15:40] Is this stuff you haven't talked about, Talked about publicly or to.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:15:44] I haven't talked about it publicly. I don't mind talking about it. I just don't know if we have time for it.
John Dehlin [02:15:49] Okay, okay.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:15:49] Oh, just the quick version. And I'll try not to get emotional in it, but in. So when I was 21, which would have actually been 2012, is kind of. I was struggling, and I started dating a guy who was an LDS who had already left the church. And I remember, you know, my mom would always Ask, oh, is he returned missionary? And I was like, actually he's not. And you know, my mom started asking more questions, it was more worried. And I said, I just don't know if I think that temple marriage is necessary to return back to Heavenly Father. And it worried my mom a lot. And so she said, you know, I was living in Orem and they were in St. George, my parents were in St. George. And she said let's meet in the middle at Beaver and let's just have a talk about this. And at 21 years old I thought, okay, we're going to go, we're going to have this discussion and my parents are going to convince me why the church is true, why the temple matters. And I may or may not listen to it, but I was just kind of ready for the lecture and I said, I don't know if the temple is for like is necessary. And my dad said, well, I don't believe it is and I don't know if I even believe in God. And I'm actually pretty sure I'm an atheist.
John Dehlin [02:17:14] What? And he had raised you active LDs my entire life.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:17:19] He had served a mission and I was raised lds and it just shattered,
John Dehlin [02:17:35] Shattered my mom, did she not know or did he had never told her,
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:17:50] So that was not what I was expecting. So I leave Beaver and I actually go back to St. George because I felt completely responsible for blowing up my whole family. So I end up having to go back up to back home. Eventually I, I felt like I'd blown up my parents marriage because for anybody who's been lds, having a spouse leave is a very big deal, especially to come out as saying that not only do you leave the church, but that you're an atheist. So. I just, I mean I kept going and at that point I almost doubled down and not wanting to believe because I didn't want what I had just done to them, to their marriage, to my whole family to be in vain. So I felt like I needed to make sure that I, I didn't believe right. So I had lived up there for another year, finally you know, officially said more than just oh, I don't know if the temple is a thing. Finally been able to say that I, that I had been raised LDS and my brother was going to be leaving on a mission in 2014 and my mom was in a really dark place and my parents marriage was falling apart over that whole year.
John Dehlin [02:19:20] So before that disclosure from your dad, your perception was that your parents actually had a healthy, good relationship?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:19:27] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [02:19:28] So when you say you were worried that you blew your family up. That's because after that meeting, oh, I knew parents.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:19:36] I knew I had blown my family up. And I know now, after a lot of time and a lot of healing and some therapy, that it wasn't my fault that I was the detonator. And it was already. It was already there, ready to blow. You know, at some point, my dad was going to come out with that and say that, and it would have happened. But at that time, at 21 years old, I knew it was my fault. And that was a really heavy burden for a long time, because it didn't. The pain didn't end for a very long time for my family because now my one brother was just about to leave on a mission, and he left. But it was this weird, my dad feeling like he continued to have to fake it. My mom falling apart, knowing that her husband just gave up their entire eternity, and having to know that my younger siblings were caught in that household dealing with all of those things at the same time. So in 2014, early 2014, I was living still in northern Utah, working in and out, and I just felt like I needed to move back and be there for my family, for my baby sister. And before my. I have two younger brothers and then a baby sister. I still call her the baby. She's not baby anymore, but. And my one brother was on a mission. The other one was about to leave. And so I knew my little sister was going to be in. What I felt like was this mess that I created. And I felt strongly that I needed to move back to St. George, and I didn't want to. I just felt like it was what I needed to do. And so I just cried and cried to my managers up here. I was like, I don't know why I have to move back. I have to move back. And so I moved back to St.
John Dehlin [02:21:39] George because you're like a regional trainer over many, many in and outs.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:21:44] So at the time up here, I was an assistant manager. I became a regional trainer later.
John Dehlin [02:21:49] Okay, so you're assistant manager of an entire store.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:21:51] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:21:52] That's a big deal.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:21:53] Yes. And I was doing very well in the position. I knew that I would have been the next person to be promoted to have a store. I was very, very close to being able to get that position. And when I left, I had to be demoted as well, a level to go back to St. George because they already had an assistant. And I remember telling my other friends, I said, whoever takes my spot at this store, I guarantee will get the next store, they'll be the next door manager. And that's what happened. That was where they put you when they were preparing you for that next level. So instead of moving further in my career, I took a step back. And I remember when I was moving, so I took great pride in living in Utah Valley for three years without getting engaged. Took great pride in that because I thought all these people were crazy.
John Dehlin [02:22:38] It's really a record. You set a record.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:22:40] Yeah. So, yeah. Really, though. And I thought, these people are crazy. They find someone and they date for a couple weeks, and then they get engaged, and then they get married a couple months later. And that is absolute craziness. And. Are you smirking yet? Yeah, I know where this is going. You know where this is going, right?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:22:58] So absolutely crazy.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:22:59] I think part of my tears going to St. George was the reality of. I had dated a lot in St. George, and I felt like I had dated every person or their brother or their cousin. There were times I literally went on a date, and he would. We'd go back to his house to watch a movie, and his cousin that I had dated before would be there. Like, really? When you're raised there, it's just a small town. And I was like, well, if I move back to St. George, I'm gonna die an old maid. And I'm okay with that. I just have to accept it as what it is. Just move on with life, and that's just fine. And so I moved to St. George. And again, still, I would consider myself. I wouldn't have said that I was lds. You know, I was raised lds. That was the best way for me to say it, in denial. And I just. I don't know, I just felt like there was a lot of stuff going on. And my first weekend there, I just felt like I didn't know what else to do besides going back to a singles ward. You know, there's such a huge community in a singles ward. And I was like, you know, I just feel like I need to go to church tomorrow. And I still remember being like, I don't know why I feel this way, but I need to go to church. And so I looked on the Handy Dandy app, found out which ward I was supposed to be in, and I went in at the time. It told me in the building. It told me and everything. And I sat in the back, and as soon as I. I don't think
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:24:32] we've mentioned that we had previously met before this.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:24:36] Oh, you're right.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:24:37] So maybe. Maybe that's important to Just briefly mention that.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:24:42] Okay. Okay. So Sam and I had originally met because this friend that he had stayed up talking late to, she was a friend of mine. Like, we had the same connections. So he showed up to my 18th birthday party.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:24:55] This was just not too long after I had moved out of the LDS community. Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:25:00] And we became lunch buddies, and we went.
John Dehlin [02:25:03] You and.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:25:04] And Sam. So we had met. What's funny is there were tons of people at this party, and somehow my mom took a picture of the two of us. She was like, oh, so give me your new lunch buddy. So we had this picture from the very first night we met when we were 18, and he had just left.
John Dehlin [02:25:18] And did you think he was cute?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:25:19] Yeah, he was cute. But we went on two lunch dates and we never spoke again.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:25:23] Like I said, I was awkward with girls.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:25:25] So at that point, you have to understand, I had a missionary. No, you weren't awkward. I just remember you kept paying for the lunches, and I thought we were gonna be lunch buddies, and then you paid for them. And it felt more like a date than what I was wanting at that time. Because I had a missionary.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:25:39] I didn't think women had money. I'm just kidding.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:25:42] Can't say something like that.
John Dehlin [02:25:45] I'm just joking.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:25:47] You're gonna get everybody in trouble.
John Dehlin [02:25:48] Look at me. Jokes.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:25:49] Just a joke. Anyway, and so we had gone on those two dates, and then we never spoke again for the five years.
John Dehlin [02:25:58] Had you known his background when you went on those dates?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:26:01] Yeah. So he was very open with it. So when we went on these lunch dates, he had told me his story. And so I. I knew he had a super thick, heavy hick accent. And that was another thing, too. I mean, he wasn't interested in education, which I was super into. He had a super hick accent. And we just were not going on the same paths in life at the time, honestly. And he was getting ready. He was gonna be going on a mission. I had a missionary. I was fun having a lunch buddy. But when he started paying, I was like, oh, let's not. I don't think we should date.
Guest 2 [02:26:32] I don't think.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:26:33] I haven't said that. I think I just ghosted you. Honestly, I don't remember. But we had.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:26:37] I don't remember exactly either, but I know that it abruptly ended. And if I remember correctly, it was Melissa that stopped returning my texts.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:26:47] So it probably was.
John Dehlin [02:26:49] Do you think she was cute? Did you like her?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:26:50] I did.
John Dehlin [02:26:51] Yeah. Okay.
Guest 2 [02:26:52] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:26:52] But I mean, I was like, she says I was preparing for a mission. So I wasn't expecting anything long term anyway.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:26:58] So, yeah, it just faded away. I hadn't said anything, like I said, for five years at this point. So I look, I go where I'm supposed to go. I sit in the back pew waiting for sacrament meeting to start. And when I grab the program, it says I'm in the wrong ward. And I was just sitting back there frustrated because I'm like, I make this kind of effort to go to church for the first time in like a long time, probably like six months. And I'm like. And here I am not even in my right ward, meeting any of the people that. Of this community that I'm hoping to like, regain somehow. And I don't even know if I want to be here. So I sit in the back row and in walks Sam. And I'm like, he looked so familiar, but he had, like turned into a man in those five years, like, boy to man. And so I go, and I don't know how I was so brave, but I went and awkwardly tapped on his shoulder. And I'm not very good with names normally, but I was like, is your name Sam? And he said, yeah, but he couldn't remember my name. He's like, yeah, it is. We went on lunch days, right? And I was like, yeah, we did. And it was just super awkward. And I was like, yeah, like, good to see you. And I went back and I sat down. And he was Elders Quorum president at the time, so he's running around like a busy bee saying hi to all these people. I'm sitting on the back pew. But he did end up coming and sitting back by me for sacrament meeting. I go off to Sunday school, release society, all that stuff. And I go to leave and as I'm about to walk out the doors of the church, he runs and he says, hey, for old times sake, we need to go to lunch. And I was like, okay. Like, yeah, sounds good. Like, here's my number. And I walked out and he set up a date for the next weekend. And then I canceled on him. But that was just to reel him in.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:28:49] Yeah, it worked.
John Dehlin [02:28:50] What did both of you think of each other when you reunited?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:28:54] I thought he had just grown up and was super attractive. I was like, woo.
John Dehlin [02:28:57] Okay. Less nerdy, less of a hick.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:29:01] He didn't have an accent anymore at all. He was very confident instead of faking confidence because when he first left, honestly, he kind of had that air of him of like almost trying too hard to be cool, I think, because he didn't have the real life experience to know how to be cool. That sounds.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:29:18] I pretended to know everything. That was a bad thing that I went through. It was temporary, but it was something that I pretended to know everything. And I think that came across as very. I can imagine, Very bad. But anyway, I. I thought she was very attractive. So to see her again, I was like, wow. Like, I mean, I didn't know what was going to come of it. I just thought we would go hang out and maybe go on, see what happens. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:29:45] Okay.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:29:46] Yeah. So I canceled on him the first time because I had forgotten a friend was coming into town. But I told him, I said, but this is just a rain check. I promise. So a couple days later, I text him or called him or whatever and said, I'm free this weekend if you still want to go on a date. And so, yeah, we went on our very first date and. Or our first or second first date. And it was just awesome. Like, from the very beginning to the very end.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:30:14] So easy.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:30:15] It was so good.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:30:16] We didn't have to. I don't know, There wasn't any awkward moments that I can remember. It just everything flowed so smoothly. I spent all my life savings on this date, you know?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:30:27] I mean, he, like, went all out trying to impress me. Took me, like, to the nicest restaurant in St. George.
John Dehlin [02:30:32] Which one?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:30:32] Anasazi.
John Dehlin [02:30:33] Okay.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:30:34] Steakhouse. It's delicious if you've never been.
John Dehlin [02:30:36] Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:30:37] So he's like. Takes me to this expensive restaurant, and then it was one of those where we didn't want the night to end. So then he's like, okay, let's go bowling. He's like, oh, now do you want frozen yogurt? Yeah, I want frozen yogurt. Okay. Now do you want to go back and watch a movie? Well, yeah, I want to go watch a movie. You want to go look at the stars? Like one of those. You just progressively. And it was kind of funny because when I moved back again, this was only two weeks from when I had moved. Like, I had moved. And then two weeks later, we had our first date. But it felt like everyone that I had gone to high school with that had ever wanted to take me on a date kind of came out of the woodwork. So I had had a couple dates in between before I had my date with him. And on Wednesday, I'd had a date. And then I went on my first date with Sam on Friday. And that guy from Wednesday, Saturday morning was like, hey, can you go on a date tonight? And I said, I'm sorry. I have a boyfriend, and I still feel so bad that that's. But I didn't know what else to say. And then I remember, like, being done because I didn't want to lead him on because I liked Sam so much. And I remember calling my mom and being like, I really hope Sam wants a second date because I just said no to this other guy and told him that Sam's my boyfriend.
John Dehlin [02:31:37] It's an act of faith. You're a prophet.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:31:40] Yes. It was my prophecy. I had a revelation that he was going to be mine. And he just didn't know it yet. No, but it was super cute because obviously he did know it, because he called me the next day and he was leaving to go to his family's cabin that weekend, and he stopped by just to say hi on his way. He's like, I'm sorry, we can't hang out again this weekend. I just wanted to say hi and gave me a quick kiss and ran back off to go. And we've been together ever since.
John Dehlin [02:32:08] So how long was the courtship before engagement and before marriage?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:32:12] So we dated for six weeks, and we got married two and a half months later.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:32:17] Okay, very, very quickly.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:32:19] So all the things karma, if you make fun of people for something, it will come back to you. I mean, I hope it was in the best way possible, but, you know,
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:32:29] I mean, I don't know, it felt so natural and perfect between us, you know, that I didn't see the point in pushing it off. And, you know, obviously there's that culture within the Mormon Church as well, to get married quickly as well. So that had a little bit of something to do with it as well.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:32:48] But you want to make it to the temple, right?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:32:50] Exactly.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:32:50] Let's be real. You want to make it to the
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:32:52] temple that had a huge part of it as well. Sure, exactly.
Guest 2 [02:32:54] Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:32:54] Pure. Well. And I'm kind of going back a little bit to where I was spiritually because, again, this was my first day back to church in, like, six months. And I had kind of been on and off with the church for the three years that I was living in northern Utah. And I remember coming home from my first date with him and feeling so strongly I'm going to marry him in the temple after the very first date. And I remember thinking, crap, I've got to find out if I have a testimony of the temple, if I'm going to marry this man in the temple. And the only reason I really share the story of what happened with my parents is after what happened with my parents, I knew that I could not go into a marriage and change my mind later because I had seen what that had done to my parents marriage. And I'm very lucky and happy for them now that they worked through all that and they're happy now.
John Dehlin [02:33:46] Well, so your parents are still together?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:33:48] They are still together. They made it through. But it was a long. It was, was a lot of years and a lot of hard. A lot of hard and a lot of years are.
John Dehlin [02:33:55] Are you comfortable seeing whether they're in or out of the church?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:33:58] Yeah. So my mom is still in the church and my dad is still an atheist.
John Dehlin [02:34:02] Wow.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:34:03] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:34:03] Okay.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:34:04] So anyway, that's the only reason I share that story before is.
John Dehlin [02:34:07] But he couldn't go to your wedding.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:34:08] No, he couldn't. And I'll get to that in a second. No, no, you're fine. But I knew I couldn't do what my dad had done to my mom. I could not blind some blindside somebody later. And I remember thinking, I have to know like now because if I keep dating him, I know that he will only accept a temple marriage. And I have to know whether or not I believe in that and I have to regain a testimony or I have to break up with this amazing man that I like knew after the first date I was going to be with. And that was a crazy time emotionally and spiritually for me. And I just was praying and I remember just crying in the shower and just pleading with God that he would help me know if it was true and feeling like I got some answers through hymns actually. Music has always been super powerful in my life and always touched me a lot. But I just, you know, would pray and then all of these experiences, you know, Sam would invite me to go to family home evening and. And I think when we first started dating, I tried really hard to hide a little bit of all that. I didn't want him to be worried about it. I just wanted to figure it out and I wanted it to be for myself. I did not want it to be for him. Looking back now, I don't know how it couldn't have been a little bit for him. But at the time I really did my best to decide that it was for me. And I was feeling all of the things that made me feel what I believed at that time to be the spirit. Right. You feel that sense of love. I remember I'd always questioned why a priesthood blessing was important, like what is, you know, and what that means. And then Sam invited me. He got a call because he was the elders Quorum president of the YSA Ward. And he went and was like, will you come with me while I give a blessing? And. And I said, yeah. And, you know, I just felt this overwhelming love and power and felt like that was the spirit telling me that Sam's priesthood was powerful and did mean something. And every step of our relationship continued to give me these reaffirming feelings that the church was true.
John Dehlin [02:36:25] And so I guess if you're a believer, that's the Holy Ghost. If you're not a believer, that's called motivated reasoning.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:36:31] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [02:36:32] Which is where your. Your emotion is in control and your logic and your reason serves as a way to justify what you're feeling. Yeah, I'm not trying to say which it was. I'm just saying.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:36:45] No, no, I.
John Dehlin [02:36:46] One of those two things, probably.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:36:48] I agree 100% with you. Like I said at the time, I really did feel like, you know, my emotions were telling me that they were separate, and I was doing it for me. Looking back again, I was falling in love with this amazing man who was the most righteous man I think I had ever dated. He was, you know, he did all the things. He was Elders Quorum president and he was serving, and he was giving girls blessings in their dorm rooms if they needed it because they didn't have family. And, you know, we were praying together and reading scriptures together and doing all those things. And I remember at one point just feeling like, no, this is right, and this is the life that I want and putting the issues that I had that I said, you know what? Here's my life with Sam in the church. And I could see it, and it looked beautiful, and it looked amazing. And I thought, here's my issues and is it worth blowing this up for these couple things, you know, And I put them on the shelf and I said, no, that's what I want. And I remember making the conscious decision in my mind that no matter what else came on that shelf, no matter what else maybe cracked it, even if it broke. I swore to myself that I was willing to live out the rest of my life being a faithful Mormon. That was in my head. I was like, I will not have what my parents had. I will stay true. And I mean, his. The family that had taken him in and become his family. All sorts of people told me, you know, he's going to be an apostle someday, you know, that he's going to be a stake president, that he's going to be this. And that is truly what I felt like I signed up for. I signed up for being not just righteous and not just being a Mormon, but going back to my roots, which, again, had its comfort level for me, to be honest, because not believing and being a young adult in northern Utah and trying to navigate life without the church was hard, especially without family support. It was really, really hard, and it was really, really trying, and the church was very comfortable. And I knew what was expected of me, and I knew that I could be dang good at it. I could be a good Mormon, and I could do that really, really well, and I could be a good wife and do the things that I needed to, because those expectations were really clear for me. And I felt like that was something that I could do.
John Dehlin [02:39:12] So in some sense, the LDS Church in orthodox Mormonism filled a vacuum in both of your lives.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:39:20] Absolutely.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:39:21] It did. It did.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:39:22] It did. And then on top of it, as you know, if you had asked me when I first moved, if it was anything spiritual, the feelings of me needing to move to southern Utah, I would have been like, no. But as hindsight, it all felt very clear. Oh. Out of nowhere, I felt the need to move to St. George. Excuse me? I felt the need to move to St. George my very first weekend. I feel the need to go to church. I go to the wrong church, and I meet Sam. Like, talk about fate, talk about the Holy Ghost guiding me to what I was supposed to be doing and the way that I was supposed to be living. And I was being blessed for following it and doing what I was supposed to. I felt like it was a direct correlation and a direct guidance.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:40:08] So that helped her to easily accept the church again because she felt that that was inspiration.
John Dehlin [02:40:16] Wow.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:40:17] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:40:18] So we've got. We've got about an hour before we have to leave to get to the airport an hour early. So I. Here's what I want to do. What I want to do is just sort of like, ask you. Okay. So you got married. How many kids did you have? Now, let's talk about how you got to where you are now. But. But I also want you guys to make sure you can share whatever you want. So were you going to talk about your. Your temple marriage and your dad?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:40:49] Yeah. I can touch a little bit on us getting married and kind of the first years of our marriage.
John Dehlin [02:40:54] Did you ever let him know about all your doubts when he got married or before you got married and that you were putting them on the shelf? Or did you just.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:41:01] So, yes, he. You knew that I had struggled before, and he would answer questions for me that I had as I was Continuing to kind of go through that process a little bit. I think looking back, I may have underplayed it a little bit. Out of fear.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:41:18] Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:41:18] I don't know. Would you say that's true?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:41:19] Maybe a little bit.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:41:20] I tried to be honest. I mean, we were very open with each other, but.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:41:24] And to me, it wasn't the problem. It was just. I mean, I had been a missionary, and I was okay helping answer more questions. Right. I mean, it didn't seem like that big of a deal to me. She seemed like she was all in at that point. And at that point in time, that was very important for me to have someone that I could marry in the temple. And so it wasn't a big deal that she had some questions. I felt that was okay.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:41:47] And we always had a lot of open communication about everything right from the beginning of our relationship.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:41:53] Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:41:53] And so, like I said, I think I definitely asked you a lot of questions and let you know some of the questions. Maybe the gravity of where they had taken me before, I had downplayed. But he definitely knew that it had happened and that, you know, I hadn't really gone to church, you know, off and on, and that that was a thing. But I think I reiterated very strongly that I was all in at that moment.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:42:19] Yeah. Yep.
John Dehlin [02:42:20] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:42:22] So, I mean, I guess we don't have to get into all the details. We did go on to get married in the temple.
John Dehlin [02:42:27] Was it hard for you? I guess. Your parents weren't there?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:42:29] My. My. My family.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:42:31] Adopted family.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:42:32] My adopted family was there. The. And so they supported me through my mission. They supported me when I got back, encouraged me to get the education that I wanted, and then, of course, support. Supported us preparing for the temple, and were there in the temple with us during that experience.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:42:48] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:42:49] But my biological family, of course, they had no part in that.
John Dehlin [02:42:53] Had you changed your name by the time you got married in the temple?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:42:56] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:42:57] Do you want to tell that story really quick? Because I think it's kind of complicated but powerful.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:43:01] But it is a little bit complicated, but really. So I move out, away from my family. I'm no longer allowed to be a part of their lives. So the family that took us in supported us through my brother and I, our missions. And they were the ones that were sending us weekly emails and letters on our missions and sending us the goody baskets and everything like the other families. I mean, they were our family doing everything just like any other family would for their son or daughter. So they, even more so throughout the mission experience, became our Family. And so when we. When we returned from our mission, they picked us up from the airport and brought us back to their home where they had a room for us. And just. I mean, we were 100% a part of the family. And so it. And it was just one of those things where I felt perfectly comfortable. I felt like I was one of them. And Mom Wisen came to us at one point, and she just was expressing her love for us and how much she felt that we were very much a part of the family, and she didn't think of us any different than the rest of her own children. And she asked us if we just. She didn't want us to ever feel excluded or left out. And so she said that if you guys want to, and if you feel comfortable, we would love to offer our last name to you just so that you feel like you are 100% a part of the family. And so that's kind of where that came from. And both my brother and I thought about it for quite some time, and it was just. I don't know, to me, it felt like they had become my family. And so it seemed like that would be the okay thing to do.
John Dehlin [02:44:57] And on the one hand, I know how important they were to you and how tender your feelings are for them and how much they loved you and all that seems beautiful, but I. The idea of a grown adult changing their name and taking on the name of another family as an adult, that would never even occur to me. And then there's the idea of, like, what it. How that would be received by your actual family, even though they'd cut you off? I guess that didn't matter. Well, but anyway, like, is there anything about that conflict that you would want to say?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:45:31] Well, definitely. I mean, because now I have a lot of siblings. At that time, there weren't as many, but now there is becoming more and more of my siblings that have moved out. And I did leave my last name zitting in my name as well. I didn't. I didn't get rid of that. I'm very proud of my heritage and very interested in the history and love my ancestors. There's nothing against that at all that I was trying to escape from. It was more out of love for this family that had done so much for me that I wanted to accept their invitation, accept and be a part of the family.
John Dehlin [02:46:07] Did they have legal reasons for why they would propose that?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:46:10] Not that I know of.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:46:12] Legally there wasn't. It wasn't like it was a legal adoption or anything. Like that, just offering it and so.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:46:18] But for.
John Dehlin [02:46:18] They just really wanted you to be part of their family in every way.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:46:21] Yes.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:46:21] Yeah, exactly.
Guest 2 [02:46:22] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:46:23] Exactly. That's exactly what it was.
John Dehlin [02:46:25] Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:46:26] Obviously, it was very touching and difficult with my siblings that have moved out, and that was something that. Something that I'm still dealing with that, I mean, I can understand. And I've talked to them and told them, hey, this is not out of disrespect for you, our name. This is. I don't feel any less a part of our family biologically as I ever have. Like, I don't feel like I'm less a part of the family anyway. It's hard to explain.
John Dehlin [02:46:58] Sure.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:46:59] It's hard to explain. And I did have some backlash. One of my math teachers at the school, the college I was going to at the time, when I told him that my last name had changed, he asked me why, and I told him, and he basically told me I was an idiot and how dare I do something like that to my family? And that put me in a really dark spot for a while because I was already struggling with it and with just how that was coming across to my biological family and to have someone else just reiterate, hey, what you are. I can't believe you would do something like this. And so anyway, it hasn't always been rainbows and unicorns for sure, but.
John Dehlin [02:47:43] So the Weissen in your name is this adopted family, Correct. Okay.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:47:47] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:47:48] So I guess the Weison parents played the role of your parents at your wedding?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:47:55] Yes.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:47:55] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:47:56] Did you let your biological parents know you were getting married and.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:48:01] Yes, I did, to the best of my ability. They weren't able to be a part of it in any way, but at least they knew. I forget if it was through phone call or message or something, but they were aware of it.
John Dehlin [02:48:14] Did they react in any way?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:48:16] I'm trying to remember if I was able to talk to my father. I believe I was able to talk to him on the phone and let him know. And he just was. He just congratulated me and seemed to be happy for me, but told me that I. He hoped that I understood why he couldn't be a part of it.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:48:33] Yeah, we knew that the siblings that had left, obviously they were invited and they came and were a part of it, but anybody that was still out there, they would not have been allowed to be even come to the reception, let alone any other part of it.
John Dehlin [02:48:48] So. St. George Temple.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:48:49] St. George Temple. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:48:50] Okay. So they were close. Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:48:53] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:48:53] Yeah. Did. Did they send A wedding gift or a card that you remember your parents?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:49:02] No. And you have to remember, too, that weddings in the FLDS are very different. There wasn't a celebration. So, in fact, a lot of the weddings were done in secret. And so a wedding isn't something for the FLDS people where you send gifts or you show up and have a celebration.
Guest 2 [02:49:19] Okay. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:49:20] And I was going to ask you this before I forgot to. Are there temples or temple endowment ceremonies or temple weddings in the FLDS church? I know they were building a temple in El Dorado, but do they even do temple work? No.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:49:34] And even the temple in El Dorado sounds funny to say it like that.
John Dehlin [02:49:40] And I'm a Texan, I know the
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:49:43] temple they had there was not actually able to be fully used for what the intention was for it. So I'm not sure what the plan was for that temple, but that was the only temple that I know of that the FLDS church ever built. So the only thing that was done, I guess you could say with the temple like, ceremony was during the wedding. There was a sealing. The prophet of the church would seal for time and all eternity, the husband and wife together. But there wasn't actual temples and there
John Dehlin [02:50:15] wasn't endowment ceremonies or baptisms for the dead or no, you know, endowments for the dead or ceilings for the dead.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:50:24] That was all meant to be saved for the millennium.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:50:26] Right.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:50:26] They believed all the temple work was going to be done in the millennium,
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:50:29] but during the millennium, I don't know that they were really going to be doing it for the dead as much as they were going to be. Like, during that time, the people were going to be there physically to be baptized. So they, they. That was one of the reasons they said they were waiting for the millennium till the resurrected beings would be, I guess, wow. Or maybe some of some that had died would have to wait for a later time and the ones that were living would. I don't. But during the, during the time where Christ would return. Maybe I'm forgetting all of my. My history on what they taught there, but maybe at that point that's when people would be resurrected. Maybe that's what they were referring to.
John Dehlin [02:51:06] Okay.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:51:06] Yeah. Definitely not the same temple stuff that was going on and that we. Yeah, our normal temple.
John Dehlin [02:51:12] One area where the LDS church is weirder than the FLDS church. Sorry, that was a bad joke. I mean, work for the dead is for some people's very interesting.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:51:23] Very unique. For sure.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:51:24] Definitely.
John Dehlin [02:51:25] Sorry. More unique. Thank you. I didn't mean to be rude. Okay, so at least your adopted parents were there. Do you want to talk about your dad?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:51:35] Yeah. I mean, obviously it was really hard on him because he was the only person that I really was able to speak to about my feelings when I had kind of left and gone back and forth before. And so for him to watch me go back into it, I know it's really, really hard on him. Excuse me. But he.
John Dehlin [02:51:58] Love is a powerful thing.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:52:00] Yes. I did go and take him aside and ask if he wanted me to have a ring ceremony so that he could be a part of it. And he was like, is it just gonna be for me? At that point, he and my mom. My mom still kind of wanted him to hide the fact that he was where he was with the church. And I said, well, yeah, it would be for you, but that's enough for me, you know, like, I'm fine with doing that for you. And he felt like it would be a lot of unnecessary attention to the situation, I think. And so that was really hard. I found out later how truly hard that was on him. And when I was offering, I probably should have tried to make more of an effort, because when he just said, oh, no, it's okay, like, you don't have to do that for me, and I said, okay, you know, and kind of moved on with wedding plans. I wish that I had pushed that harder and made that happen, to have him be a part of it. He actually sat in the lobby of the temple so that it looked and appeared like he was in there with us when he wasn't. And instead of having parents come out after us, because it's typical that when you leave out the back doors at the wedding doors, the parents would come out behind. We asked the Wyson and my mom if they could go out the front and come around so that it didn't appear like we were missing my dad. So it was a little bit theatrical in that way, which still made it made me really sad. I was trying not to focus on it. You know, my mom's crying in the temple during my sealing. I tried to say that those were happy tears for me getting married, not the absence of my father being there. And honestly just tried not to think about in that moment and then tried to do, you know, other things. Like we took bridles, and I had him, like, walk me to Sam for the bridals and got pictures like that. So try to do other things. That kind of felt like a replacement. But obviously there's no replacement for your dad being there for your wedding. But at that time, too, because I had just come back into it. I remember thinking, dad, you're not missing my wedding. This is just a religious ceremony. And I remember saying that. And obviously, now that I'm a parent, that is not good enough. That's not. It's not enough.
John Dehlin [02:54:14] It's more motivated reasoning.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:54:16] Exactly. You know, it's a. Well, you're not really missing out on my wedding. You know, it's.
John Dehlin [02:54:20] It's.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:54:21] It's religious, so you don't need to feel too bad about it. But obviously all those are just excuses. It's. It's not okay. But there's nothing we could do. I. We were both fully in at that point, especially through our engagement. I mean, I was already fully in while we were dating, before we had gotten engaged. You add on a couple more months to that, and I was ready to be a stake president's wife and an apostle's wife, and I was ready for whatever came.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:54:45] And so I don't know why. I don't know where everybody. Everyone got that idea, but I was told that a lot for some reason.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:54:49] Yeah, no, it was, it was a real thing that I was told a lot.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:54:52] I let so many people down.
John Dehlin [02:54:55] But it's such a. Just on your dad's behalf. My brother had to miss his own daughter's temple wedding once he lost his faith. And it's. Even if your dad's in the temple, in the waiting room, everyone who goes, who attends the ceremony is going to know he's not there. And word's going to get around. It's such a. Prof. Not only is it horrific that in the modern LDS Church in 2022, family members are kept from weddings, Mormon temple weddings, but it's so. That's awful that he wasn't able to be there, but how profoundly shaming that is that word's gonna get around. I wonder why a brother. Wonder why brother so and so wasn't, you know, in the temple. I wonder what he did. It's just.
Guest 2 [02:55:40] Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:55:41] So shaming, the whole situation is just. Yeah. Like now looking back, it's just. Again, you can only. We always just try to remember that, like, in each stage, you can only do the best to your knowledge and what you believe at that time, you know, so. Yeah, it's hard.
Guest 2 [02:55:58] There's.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:55:59] I can't go back and beat myself up over it, but if I could say that it was a regret, I would have definitely done at least three ceremony for him. Hands down. If we went back and redid our wedding, we would totally. It Was hard. It was tough. And I mean, the whole temple in general was just an interesting experience.
John Dehlin [02:56:20] I'm sure we could ask you all about that, but let's. So how many kids did. Did you guys end up having kids?
Guest 2 [02:56:25] Yes.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:56:26] So we have two.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:56:27] Two beautiful one, one daughter, one boy.
John Dehlin [02:56:30] What year were you married?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:56:31] 2014.
John Dehlin [02:56:34] So eight years ago. And you have two children?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:56:37] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:56:37] Okay, so I. Is what I think I want to go to now is kind of your faith journey and what changed in terms of both of your faith? Unless there's anything else about those eight years you think are really important to your story?
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:56:54] I mean, I would just say during those eight years time, during that eight year. Well, not, I guess, the full eight years for the first. How many years do you think that we were all 100% in first four years, we were 1000% in the church. I was. I had high calling, she had callings in the church, and we just gave it our all. We had. We were 100% dedicated.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:57:18] We never even got, like. We didn't get to teach primary like that. You know how that's like, always the first, like, baby step of like, oh, we're a newlywed. We're gonna get to teach together. And he went straight into elders corn presidency again. I went into primary, being a primary chorister for almost those full four years. And. Yeah. And then at one point, I mean, what were you, 28 when you became Elders Quorum president? He was elders quorum president again. Like the president this time, instead of in the corner or in the presidency, he went. Did that like it was just all very. We did all the things all the time. And we were doing it well in
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:57:56] it to win it. Exactly.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:57:56] Oh, yeah. For sure.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:57:57] Until one day.
John Dehlin [02:58:01] This is four years ago. Yes, 2018.
Leaving the LDS Church and Life After Religion
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:58:04] So 2018, our story, our faith transition story actually starts with me being asked to speak in state conference. So.
John Dehlin [02:58:12] And you're still in St. Georgia at this point?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:58:14] Yep, we're in St. George. And I got asked to speak in state conference, and I was just. The original topic was something to do with Jesus Christ.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:58:25] The teachings of Jesus Christ.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:58:27] Yeah. And it actually got switched right at the end to be about the new ministering. Switching over from ministering. But it was April of 2018, and as I was looking through, reading and preparing for this talk, Sam and I were on a drive back from Las Vegas, and I just looked at him and I said, babe, do you ever feel like the list that we have to return back to our heavenly father is a lot longer and a lot different than the list that Christ gives us.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:58:54] What?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:58:55] That was my question.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:58:56] That was the question.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:58:57] That was the question.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:58:58] And of course, as a returned missionary, I have all the answers, right? So I gave some kind of answer. I forget exactly what it was. But then I paused and we discussed it and decided to go into a little bit more detail than we normally did about these type of conversations. Because there were some thoughts that came up in my mind as well that I thought, huh, you have a point here. I mean, I have my missionary answer, but there is a point to this. There is a lot more on this to do list that we have today. Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:59:34] And it was the first time, obviously, I felt from the moment that we got married, I had married up, right? Like, he was super, super righteous. I was doing my best to keep up. And so anytime I had any questions, it was just go to him, ask him. And that was the first conversation when I was asking this question, I was expecting, like, that missionary answer back and just have it all tied and wrapped up with a bow.
John Dehlin [02:59:55] So you were, like, stewing in doubt at this point?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [02:59:57] Oh, no, not at all.
Sam Zitting Wyson [02:59:58] She expected the answer to be resolved on that trip.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:00:01] On that trip.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:00:02] Never looked back.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:00:02] Stay closed. Let me go give my talk. Everything's gonna be fine. No big deal. And he said, yeah, and have you also thought about this? And I was like, well, yeah, I've thought about that before. Have you thought about this? And I was kind of surprised that he had these other questions. And we just kind of kept going back and forth about some questions that we had had. And I actually have written in my journal that I want to say it was. It was right after my talk, just a couple weeks after my talk, and I wrote down that Sam told me that no matter what I believed regarding the church, he would still love me. And that was like. Like I said, I wrote in my journal. I don't write in my journal a lot, but I wrote that down because that gave me what I felt like was the freedom to be able to look into these hard questions that we had been talking about for a couple weeks, knowing that I didn't have to have that fear that was always instilled in me, that what was going to happen to my parents was going to happen.
John Dehlin [03:01:02] What made you tell her that, Sam? I. You know, do you think she was going off a testimony cliff or.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:01:08] It was hard to know at that point, but.
John Dehlin [03:01:11] Because that's not like. Have you heard of Fanny Alger? You know, that's not like, have you heard of the Book of Abraham, it's
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:01:17] just like, oh, no, it's. At this point, we had one child. Yeah, we had our oldest child. And there had been some questions come up in my mind a little bit about, okay, now it's not all just about me. What do I want for my children? That's what's important now. How do I raise my children? So I'd had some questions myself, as Melissa mentioned, I started asking some questions as well. But as I thought about this and as I thought about how she might think I come across, or because I've always been so dedicated in the church, I was just thinking she might think that if she changes her mind about anything in the religion that we belong to, that I will just walk away from her. And as I thought about that, that terrified me that she might have those thoughts, especially given your background. Right, right. And so I just immediately thought, no, that's never going to happen. And I remember. And then going to her and saying, hey, just so you know, it doesn't matter to me what you believe or any changes you might have. I'm with you to the end. I love you.
John Dehlin [03:02:27] Wow. That's a big deal. Especially how orthodox you were.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:02:31] It is huge. Like, we are so, so lucky for it to go that way again. I think, too, he knew that I had that fear because of. Of what had happened with my parents. And that. Yeah. That I was worried about being able to look into things. And that gave me a freedom that I just am super grateful for that I.
John Dehlin [03:02:54] It changed everything and ever ruined everything depending on.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:02:58] Depending on who you ask, if you ask, if you ask our parents or my mom and the wise ends, then, yes, it ruined everything.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:03:05] Yeah. But as time had gone on, I had become more of a seeker of truth and more knowledge. Right. And so for me to realize that, hey, just because she has some questions and just because I have some questions, you know, I want the answers to these questions now. Now I'm done just pretending. I have all the answers. I actually want the answers. So, you know, I was okay with her trying to find answers to some questions.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:03:30] And we didn't think for a single second at that point. Again, I was just reading through my journal last night before we came here. We didn't think for a second that it was gonna end with us leaving the church.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:03:40] Oh, no.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:03:41] Absolutely not. I was excited for this faith journey that I was going to have with my husband, where we could find more truth and build a stronger testimony and relationship, and it was just going to strengthen us in every way. And that is what I looked forward to. And when he gave me the permission to look deeper into these things, it was more of a, I know this is gonna make our testimony stronger. I know this is gonna be great for us, and we're gonna find these answers to the hard questions and that it's gonna be wonderful.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:04:11] And we'll just know that much more than everyone else. You know, we were just looking and excited to know more about the church.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:04:18] Yeah. And so we started looking. I mean, I had been raised my whole life. Where do you start? So we started@LDS.org and found the Gospel Topics essays.
John Dehlin [03:04:27] Do you remember which ones you first?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:04:29] Yeah, the first ones I was looking at because the main thing that I had put on the shelf was polygamy, which, again, is funny with who I ended up marrying. But he knew that that had. He knew that that bothered me even, you know, from the very beginning. So kind of took that one off. Just the idea of restoration and I mean, the first Gospel topics essays to answer your question had to do with polygamy.
John Dehlin [03:04:53] Can I just say, you probably still. Sam, you probably still believe polygamy was a good thing, right. At that point, you just thought, well, the church I'm in right now can't practice it, but you probably still had a testimony of polygamy.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:05:06] Yes. Well, because of the early teachings of the church, I believe that after. In the next life, that polygamy would be practiced once again.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:05:16] But just not in this life. He didn't want more wives, right?
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:05:18] Not in this life.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:05:19] In the next life.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:05:20] At that point, I had served a mission and everything, so I was way past believing in polygamy on this earth. Once again, I thought I had understood why the church had put an end to it and all of that, but in the next life, I still believed it was going to be practiced and a good thing.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:05:37] So that was the first Gospel topics essay. But of course, as soon as I saw that there was one, I was like, what are these other ones about?
John Dehlin [03:05:44] Oh, so you didn't go down a polygamy rabbit hole at first.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:05:47] So I had a very large rabbit hole that consisted of many burrows. So, I mean, I was reading. I was reading so much. So I had our little baby girl, and I was at home with her. I was able to stay home with her. And so I just went deep on every. I was reading hours and hours and hours and hours and hours a day. Sam would come home from long day at work, and I would basically give him, like, the Cliff Notes versions and
John Dehlin [03:06:12] tell him, what were you reading?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:06:13] This is what I was reading. All lds.org stuff. I was. I had questions about polygamy. So then I was reading those articles, and then I was looking up to see if Joseph Smith really did have how many wives he had, how many were previously married.
John Dehlin [03:06:24] What'd you find out?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:06:25] That he had a lot of wives and that he was married to women that were already married. That was something I didn't know. Even with my previous learning a little bit and having a distaste for it. I was finding out over 30 wives,
John Dehlin [03:06:37] probably at least 34, Joseph Smith married, and he married at least 11 women who were married to other men at the time. Some of them active, faithful Mormon men.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:06:45] Some of them.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:06:46] 10 out of the 11.
John Dehlin [03:06:47] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:06:48] Some of these active, faithful Mormon men on missions in a different country.
John Dehlin [03:06:52] He'd send someone on a mission and then propose to their wife.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:06:55] Absolutely. Orson Hyde, he sent on a mission. You know, so that's. That's the kind of deep digging that I was doing where I'm like, okay, well, I've been told that, you know, they had to marry the other people's wives because their husbands weren't members. So then I would research that and be like, that's just not true. Out of the 11, 10 of them had Mormon husbands. So there's only one that he was quote, unquote, saving. That way. I was digging into that. And then along with polygamy, I'm finding more about the multiple first visions. I'm reading through all five of those, deciding how I feel about that one. That was, strangely, something that I looked into from the beginning. I don't even know why. This was a huge thing in my mind was temple garments, the origination of them, which is actually very hard to find. I found it and had confirmation because my brother was at BYU at the time. And I searched everywhere that I could to find a picture of, you know, how it was restored and finding out that Joseph Smith said that the original garment, that if it was changed in any way, it would be blasphemy. That was his wording. It would be blasphemy if they were changed in any way. That there were more symbols, that there was more symbolism to them and to everything that had to do with them. And I remember thinking, if they're changed as blasphemy, but now they are way changed, and what's kind of going on? And I called my brother, who was at byu, and I said, I can only find limited information on this. Can you go to your religion professor and ask this question for Me. And he did. He came back and said, what you found is true. I said, okay, awesome. Just wanted to have another church resource
John Dehlin [03:08:24] because I want that citation. I've never seen that citation.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:08:27] Okay, I will have to look it up.
John Dehlin [03:08:28] I'm just saying I want it.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:08:29] Yeah, yeah. That was the kind of deep diving and it was just one thing after another. So it was this. Then it was temple ceremonies and how those had changed. And I started, you know, and reading into the old prophets and the things that Brigham Young said and finding out that Spencer W. Kimball is saying what Brigham Young said doesn't matter anymore.
John Dehlin [03:08:49] Well, that was the Adam God theory probably.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:08:51] Yeah. Blood atonement and all of these things. And again, all of this I'm getting from LDS.org because early on I wasn't looking anywhere else. I didn't want any anti Mormon literature.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:09:04] Yeah, I was going to point that out that we had been told don't look at anti. That it's bad to look at anti Mormon literature. So she was only looking on church websites, church doctrine and that type of thing to find these answers. And unfortunately what she and we found was not what we were hoping, hoping we would find when looking for it
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:09:22] and the Joseph Smith papers and just lots of stuff like that. And I was, I mean, I read so much of those documents which are. Can be a little intense. And yeah, it was just one thing after another after another. And I'd say, you know, Sam and I always say that we always kept each other knowing what pages we were on and we were always in the same book on our journey, but we definitely still had different pages as to what type of things broke our shelves and what things caused us to lose our faith over time.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:09:55] It wasn't so much the things that she was finding or the doctrine, the problems with some of the doctrine. And that, that was really my big concern. For me, it was more the overall picture of just how can this make sense? And what really got me concerned about that originally was I came across the documentary of someone going through all over the world and interviewing people from different faiths and religions. And to come to find out that the people in these different religions were as convinced that they had the only truth as every other person. And so I thought back to my mother and I'm like, she would literally give her life today for her truth because she is 1000% convinced. So would so many faithful LDS members. So would hundreds of other people in hundreds of other religions. Some of these people that have converted from Christianity to Muslim to back and forth all different ways, and all claiming to have received personal revelation and a confirmation. And they were all in tears, just sobbing because they had such a strong experience and were so convinced that what they had experienced was straight from God. And so then it got me thinking, you know, because I've. Based on the experiences I've had with going from one religion to another and realizing that, man, this is kind of crazy. And you start looking into some of these really crazy cults that some people deal with that I forget the name of the guy that ended up killing off his entire following.
John Dehlin [03:11:45] Jim Jones, the People's Temple.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:11:48] Okay, so come to find out, they had a piece on that. And his followers would tell the people that were interviewing them that they had received all of these personal revelations and that he would tell them this is how he convinced them that it was true. He would tell them to go to a quiet place all alone, kneel down, and ask God if what he is telling them is true. And that he knew that because God was speaking to him, that they would receive an answer for themselves to know that it is the truth. And guess what? They all did that. And they all received an answer that it was the truth and the only truth. And I'm just.
John Dehlin [03:12:24] And then they all died by Kool
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:12:25] Aid and they all ended up dying by. Exactly. So it was just obviously a crazy guy that had convinced all of these people. And then obviously that got me thinking back on Warren Jeffs and my experience in all of that and how he's convinced so many people. And I know for a fact, because I have a personal relationship with them, that they would give their life for the truth they claim to know they have. And anyway, so a lot of that could go on for a while.
John Dehlin [03:12:50] I just have to ask. As more and more news was coming out about Warren Jeffs and the things he was doing and running from the law, there were rumors that in jail he had admitted he really wasn't a prophet. Did. Were you following all that news about Warren Jeffs and did that, hearing about his. Oh, and the allegations of child sexual abuse, did all of that sort of take luster off of your faith in him, which would then make you look at the modern church and Joseph Smith as well, or not? I'm not trying to make that. I just wonder.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:13:28] When I was still living in the community, the FLDS community, I didn't believe a word that they were telling us. So, for example, when he claimed to not be a prophet anymore and when he almost committed suicide and they claimed that this happened, that happened to us, it was all fabricated garbage that never happened. It was the world trying to pin all of these things on him, shed a bad light on him, to try to convince the world that he was an evil man. And we didn't believe any of it for a second. We thought it was all fabricated. And we. For example, when he attempted suicide in prison, I was under the assumption, I know many of us were, that one of the people in prison tried to kill him and claimed that it was suicide. So, you know what I mean, we just twisted everything that we were told in a way that made sense to us because I was so convinced he was a man of God. So I wouldn't believe those things.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:14:21] One of the main things that Sam would always say to me as well is, you know, as he was realizing that more and more people were feeling these spiritual confirmations. And he would tell me stories of his childhood, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, but he would say too. He's like, you know, when I would go into Warren Jeff's home and shake his hand, I felt the spirit. And if I felt the spirit shaking his hand. And now I know that he's doing these things all behind closed doors. And now I'm feeling the spirit here. Like, not that it sounds bad to say, can you not trust the spirit? But is the spirit maybe something different than what we originally thought?
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:15:01] Which took me to. I think people underestimate the power of the mind. And that's kind of where I am currently at is I think that our minds are much more powerful than we realize. And that we can convince our minds, can convince us, our subconscious can convince us of things that may not even be there, that we can see, may not even be there, but we can feel, may not even be there, but we can hear. Because there are so many experiences that I have now seen and witnessed that other people had that I personally had that make me question what is going on.
John Dehlin [03:15:39] That.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:15:40] And when you compile it with a feeling of love, you know, now I look on my experiences as I was falling in love with Sam, and I wondered why. It was the most spiritual months of my life were dating and preparing to marry him. And I really feel like those. Those same feelings that I had been taught my entire life were the spirit were love. And I was falling in love with Sam, and I was falling in love with the man that he was. And part of who he was was the church. And I don't think I could differentiate the difference between the feelings of my love for him being true. And my feelings for the church being true,
John Dehlin [03:16:19] man, I want to dig in, but let's just go to. So how did. How did you guys come to process all this talk about it? And then where did that lead in terms of your decisions and the fallout?
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:16:30] It was a long journey.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:16:31] Yeah. So, I mean, his was kind of broad. I was much more of a deep digger. Right. Like, I'm going. And I'm like, okay, if the garments were like this and then they weren't like this, and I liked all the nitty gritty details. And my main thing kind of ended up coming down to, if I had been a member of the church a hundred years ago, what is the pathway that they would have told me and the things that I would have had to do to return back to Heavenly Father? And why are they different if this is a restored gospel? And that ended up being. My ultimate breaking point was you made
John Dehlin [03:17:03] a list on both sides.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:17:04] I made a bit. Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [03:17:04] Was the list different?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:17:05] I said, oh, yeah. How was it differently? Oh, goodness, it's different.
John Dehlin [03:17:09] Couple examples. Just a couple.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:17:10] Having to live. The law of polygamy was a huge one.
John Dehlin [03:17:13] Right? Yeah. Back then.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:17:14] Back then. Yeah. I'm talking about Joseph Smith.
Guest 2 [03:17:16] Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:17:17] So time living the law of polygamy, the oaths I would have made in the temple, the covenants that I would have made and things that I'd been told were restored and should. To me, the temple ordinances were things that were not in the process of restoring. They should have been restored, and so they should be everlasting and not changing. You know that I understand that there are social elements that change over time, and I think those things are good for society overall. It's good that the church continues to change. Right. That they're not stuck in some of those ways. But there are some things that, if they were restored that way, they should have changed. They shouldn't have changed. You know? Yeah, that. The role of women, the role of race, the roles with lgbtq, like, all of those type of things and how they would get to heaven. And then I'm looking at my list now, and I see all these different things and the temple ordinances changing and the garments changing and scripture changing and the prophets now basically throwing away things that the prophet said in the past instead of building upon them. All of these type of things where it's like, well, if you're telling me that now, all I'm supposed to focus on is what the current prophet tells me and that they can say, no, the prophet before was wrong. Well, you're kind of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Because if you're telling me that a new prophet can say what you're doing is wrong, then how do I know that what I'm doing right now is actually going to get me to heaven? Because then what if the next prophet says you're wrong? So then I did everything wrong because I'm following this prophet. So to me, I just lost my faith in the fact that there was one truth, one man that was guiding us and that they were actually being led by God. And we went to the stake president multiple times. I remember our last temple recommend interview. We did so much research, and we prayed together every day and night for an answer for about eight months. So it's from April to the end of 2018. And in the fall of 2018, we went to go get our temple recommends renewed. And I remember them asking the questions. And when they asked if I believed that Joseph Smith was a prophet, I said, I do not know, but I feel like I need to go to the temple to get those answers. That was my answer. I just was like. I told Sam before going in, I said, I've got to be honest. They said, do you believe, you know, that the current prophet is a prophet? And I said, I don't know, but I feel like I need to go to the temple to get those answers. So they let me have my recommend because I wasn't committing any other sins, right? All of my things were faith questions. And we had an awesome stake president, and he had meetings with us trying to explain doctrinal things. I didn't. We left and I said, I don't agree that there's basically no doctrine, that everything in the church's policies and the only doctrine is that there's Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I was like, I don't buy that. Because they say that there's doctrine, like you can say, you can see what the prophets have said or doctrine. But there were definitely things they tried to help us through. And I'd say, so I was then in 2018, and we had our son in the spring of 2019. And at that point, our daughter was 2. And we said, we have to make a final decision by the time our daughter could go to primary, because if this isn't true, we can't let her go and be indoctrinated. And when our son was born, we kind of lucked out, because at that point, our minds were kind of out. But we lived in Utah, we lived in St. George. All of our neighbors were LDS. Sam was the Elders Quorum president. I was in Relief Society activity. Like, we had our callings, all the friends and neighbors and everything in the ward, and we just felt like, okay, how do we get out from here? And we lucked out in the. In the sense that Sam got a job promotion for us to move to Las Vegas six weeks after my son was born. So when my son was born, we didn't go to church for a while, because you don't. When you have a new baby, right? Don't want everyone trying to kiss and love on your baby. So we did that. And then right at the time that we would have gone back to church and had it not be noticeable, we moved to Las Vegas, and we went to church one time, one more time, to bless our son because we felt like it was a traditional thing that we wanted him to have. And. And we didn't go back after that. And that was in the fall of 2019. And our daughter would have gone to primary in the beginning of 2020. And that's when we said, no, we can't do that.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:21:38] I mean, at that point, we were still open to people talking to us. I mean, we still are very friendly and open to people having a relationship with the members around us and that. And the bishop, after we blessed our son, actually wanted to meet with me to find out what in the world was going on. And so I met with him and just told him exactly how it was, and he said, okay. He didn't really know, because when I'm sharing experiences of my past and how they relate with current experiences and how he just didn't really have an answer for me, and that was kind of the end of that. And we didn't really hear from him after that, but. And then we moved across the valley.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:22:22] And I know that's a super. I'm trying to. That's the condensed version, if that's okay,
John Dehlin [03:22:27] but how did it feel, Sam, to lose your faith in. In the church after you had been through such a harrowing journey emotionally? What was that like for you to see her lose her faith and for you to lose your faith after all you'd been through?
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:22:44] Well. Oh, boy.
John Dehlin [03:22:46] And after the church had saved you from a very troubling time.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:22:49] Mm.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:22:51] You know, it was a very hard journey. It was not easy. It was not something that we said, oh, you know what? We want to party on Sundays, so we don't want to go to church anymore. That was not at all what it was. We started this by trying to prove a point that there's these questions we have. We're going to find the answers and all will be well. But that, unfortunately, was not the way it turned out. And we were very reluctant to try to. Oh, man. To look at anything but just church doctrine and church websites, because that's all we wanted to look into for any research. And the more we found, the more difficult it came to find the answers to all of our questions. It seems like we got more questions as time went on.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:23:43] Absolutely. I mean, it was months and months and months before we were willing. Before I was willing to look at outside sources or, heaven forbid, me watching Mormon stories took a lot. That took a long time before I was willing to look at that. And my dad had sent all of us kids the CES letter a long time previous and didn't really look at it until that moment. And that built on more questions, but we didn't even look. We didn't read that or look at that until months into our journey.
John Dehlin [03:24:10] Yeah, but what about emotionally?
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:24:12] Yes. So I just wanted to point out that it wasn't something that we just were able to quickly make a decision. And I was very. Because of my previous experience, I was very afraid to let my family down. The new family that took me in.
John Dehlin [03:24:26] Weisen family.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:24:27] Yes. I was very afraid to let them down and didn't want to hurt them and had a slight sense of fear that I would be abandoned once again by my family, because, you know, that's kind of the experience that I had before, that I didn't truly believe that they would just say, I don't want to talk to you anymore. I didn't think that would happen, and it didn't happen. But I had that in the back of my mind because of what I had experienced before. So it was terrifying. I was terrified. I was terrified to say anything. And so, to be honest, I didn't tell them. I didn't tell them about any of the questions I was having or any of the fears I was having regarding the church because I was afraid to hurt them. And unfortunately, that in a way backfired because when it all came out, it was not received very well because it just kind of like her dad, where he just all of a sudden says it out of the blue. That's kind of how it happened, because I kept it in for so long because I was afraid to hurt anybody. I didn't want to talk about it, and then it was too late. And it all came out in one big boom. Here you go. This is what I believe now And I think. I think that. I think I. I don't know. I think I hurt a lot of people. And obviously, seeing that hurt me. And even to this day, I don't know how to handle it. I don't know how to. I don't know the best way to go about dealing with a belief, a change in belief. All I can do is. Is be there for those that I love and. And show my. My love towards them, regardless of my belief and regardless of their belief and hope that that is reciprocated.
John Dehlin [03:26:17] So you say. But you said the Weissons didn't cut you off.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:26:20] No, not at all.
John Dehlin [03:26:21] So you still have a relationship with them. Has it changed or not changed, or do you want to talk about it?
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:26:27] I don't think their love for me has changed. I think our relationship has changed a little bit. As you can imagine, our relationship kind of started and has been based on the church. It's always been about the church. I'm not saying they didn't love me aside from the church. I'm just saying that it's always been. The church has always been included in a very big part of our relationship. So to then not have that. It. It changed. It definitely changed.
John Dehlin [03:26:55] That's hard. I'm sorry.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:26:57] Yeah, well.
John Dehlin [03:27:01] Yeah, go ahead.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:27:02] No, I was gonna say I. I still feel very loved and. And they. It's not like they shun me in any way. I'm not trying to say it was the same experience I had with my biological family in any way. It's just. It's just. It's difficult, and it's difficult for them. It's difficult for me. A faith transition is just not easy for anyone involved. All I can hope is that anyone that goes through it to reach out to others and try to find. If you don't have a loved one in your home, you can go through it with. At least reach out to a community of some kind, because you can't do this on your own.
John Dehlin [03:27:35] And, Melissa, what was it like to tell your mom? And what was it like to tell your dad?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:27:40] So we told my dad a little bit earlier, I'd say, than anybody else. And the interesting dynamic in my family was the fear of being put into the same category as my dad, that we somehow left because of him or that we now were atheist, which we were not. All of these expectations that if we left, it was because of him and for him or with him or all these type of things was a really tricky dynamic with my family. My brothers are both still in the church. And my mom's still in the church. And, yeah, it was a tricky dynamic. It was heartbreaking for my mom to feel like she had lost another family member. Right. So she had already lost my dad. They had mostly worked through it. It was still pretty tender. Yeah, it was just. It was really heartbreaking for her. And I felt like we tried to be as gentle as possible. I mean, there were a lot of things that slowly eased out of, like, I would still wear my garments around her to try to make her feel comfortable, you know, just being very cautious to make sure we didn't ever bring up religion around her or any of our thoughts and feelings. And she's come a long way in accepting, and we've been able to have a lot of good conversations now. So I feel like our relationships and really, really good place now where we can be open and I can be honest with her about the things I feel and she can share how she feels and have a lot more mutual respect. But it definitely took years to get. A couple years to be able to get to the point where. Where it didn't just make her incredibly sad. And I think for both families, you know, you never want to think that it's your child that is responsible. So I know that she. She. You know, she blamed Sam a little bit. She was like, well, you were the priesthood holder. You were supposed to. To convince her that it was true. And the wise ends definitely blame me and think that it was because I started asking questions that I took away Sam from the church. And so I feel like that kind of is typical and happens, which is just fine, because we know that we did it together, and, you know, that's all we can do, is be true to us and true to what we want for our family. And I think most of the people in our lives now, at least my brothers and on my side of the family, like, I've been able to have deep conversations with them individually. So even if we don't believe the same thing, they understand why I feel the way I do. And I've been able to have those with my family, which has been really good and lucky, and we're all in a good spot.
John Dehlin [03:30:12] Was your dad ever able to say he was happy or grateful or less lonely or isolated?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:30:20] I mean, to us, obviously, yes. Like, as we started, like I said, he was the first one that we kind of said, you know, we're not leaving the church yet. But I do have questions about this. And, yeah, he was very, very happy. He could not show that around my family because he didn't want to convince anyone that he had because we didn't tell him until, like, six months into our journey. I mean, we were pretty mentally out by before because we didn't want it to come across to our family. Like, he had influenced us because it really had nothing to do with him.
John Dehlin [03:30:46] Yeah, of course.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:30:47] But he was ecstatic. Honestly, he was.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:30:51] We didn't talk to him in. Until we were ready to hear about the research that he had done. Right. Because we didn't want him to just try to convince us. And so we wanted to do our own research. And so as soon as we came to the conclusion, okay, we need to figure out what's going on here, then we were open to other people's research and experiences as well.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:31:14] But he was. Yeah. Happy is definitely an understatement.
John Dehlin [03:31:19] Did you ever get to. Did you ever feel like you wanted to apologize to him for the wedding?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:31:23] Yeah, we've definitely. We had that conversation, actually, even before we ever left, we had that conversation where we were able to have it. And, you know, apologies went both ways. He was like, I'm sorry. I should have shared more of my feelings that I did want that ceremony so that I could be a part of it. And I was able to say that I was sorry that I didn't push that more, you know?
John Dehlin [03:31:42] So did he ever apologize for not telling you earlier that he had lost his faith? Because when I contemplated not telling my kids, I always feared the possibility that if I hid it from them, that I didn't believe that someday they would be angry at me, that I hid it from them.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:31:58] So I think my dad and I have a close relationship. And he had kind of hinted certain things at me, like, probably the year or two before, and I just kind of pushed him aside, like, okay, dad, you know, I don't think he ever apologized.
John Dehlin [03:32:17] It's hard. I'm not saying that he should have.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:32:19] Yeah, no. I'm trying to think of whether or not he apologized for that. I mean, I don't know if I'd call it an apology. He's definitely said that he realized that that was not the right way for that was not the ideal situation. He's very aware of that, that that was not the ideal way for it to happen. And Morris just pleaded for understanding of how hard it was when you have your kids and your sons are about to go on missions, and you just. I mean, the inevitable happened. Right. Like, he knew that it would blow up the family.
John Dehlin [03:32:46] Yeah.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:32:47] And he loves our family. And he didn't want that to happen. And especially after our journey, realizing how easily that could happen, that you can blow up a family from that kind of news. I could understand why it took so long and why it really took him feeling like he was supporting me and my decision for him to come forward because he was like, I couldn't be quiet any longer when you were having these questions. I had to tell you that I didn't think that you were wrong in your feelings. And so, you know, after getting through all the heartache of feeling like it was completely my fault and more looking at it as, you know, it was inevitable, and I kind of gave him the opportunity to come forward with it, even though it was not in the best way. And we all wish it hadn't happened that way. But I don't know. I can't say that I blame him because we understand firsthand how hard it is to disappoint people and to have all that go on.
Reflections, Closing Thoughts, and Farewell
John Dehlin [03:33:47] Well, here's the tragedy of the day, is that we have to get to the airport. So let me do this. So we're going to do another episode. We're just going to do it over streamyard and there's some things we're going to definitely. So we're going to. We're going to. I want to cover why you started growing up in polygamy, the YouTube channel, and what that's been like to move from the difficult conversations of leaving the church to actually speaking up about polygamy in your case. And I don't know, even if you talk about the LDS church in growing up in polygamy, but. So we're going to save that for part three, and we're going to tell people just to check out your amazing YouTube channel, because I'm guessing if they go to the beginning, they can kind of get all of this or much of this and more. Is that right?
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:34:38] Yes.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:34:38] Oh, yeah. You'll get a lot more stories of what it was like for Sam growing up.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:34:43] So, yeah, yeah, we've put a lot of content out there and a lot more to come. Obviously there's a lot to cover, but there's to be going quite a bit. You could go back and watch, tell,
John Dehlin [03:34:53] tell listeners of yours really quickly what your channel is and what it's about, just really briefly.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:34:58] So it all started because I. Every time I meet a new person, they have a million questions when they find out where I'm from. And it's just one of those things that everyone I talked to said, you have to tell your story somehow. And I kind of got sick of talking for hours every time I met a new person. So I thought, you know, this isn't a bad idea. Melissa was very supportive and said, hey, you know what? If we get your story out there and people have questions, then they'll be able to go to your channel. And then as we started thinking about it, we said, you know what? Even if we never got one single view in our entire time doing this, it's good to have this information out there for our posterity. So it was kind of like, you know what? Let's create a journal on YouTube about this experience that you've had. We had no idea that people were that interested into it and that people would actually watch it so much. But so that's kind of where it started.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:35:50] Yeah, I mean, it's a. A community. It's a dying community. And right now, they can't get married, they can't have children, which was the only way that they were gaining members at all. And it's been that way for a while. And I told Sam, I was like, our posterity, this is not even going to be a community that's around, you know, in another generation. And so let's document all of this while we can.
John Dehlin [03:36:10] So I. I knew that Warren Jeffs had suspended FLDS marriages.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:36:15] Correct.
John Dehlin [03:36:16] But FLDS church members aren't having children right now.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:36:19] They're not allowed to have any sexual relations with their spouses.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:36:23] It got to the point that they're not even allowed to shake hands with your spouse. The husbands and wives.
John Dehlin [03:36:28] Holy moly.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:36:29] They're not allowed.
Guest 2 [03:36:30] Warren isn't getting any. No one's.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:36:32] Exactly.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:36:32] That is exactly, exactly.
Guest 2 [03:36:34] Amen.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:36:35] That is why I said that. I think it seems like he's sitting in his prison saying, well, if I can't have it, I don't want anyone else to have it. And these people are following what he tells them to do.
John Dehlin [03:36:44] And yet. And, like, your parents are still in it.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:36:48] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:36:49] So he said even married couples can't have sex, correct?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:36:52] Oh, yeah. They can't hug.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:36:54] They're not even allowed to shake hands at this point.
John Dehlin [03:36:57] How has the church not imploded?
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:37:00] I mean, it's on its way. It's mostly.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:37:03] You'll see now that it's kind of scattered. There's not really a community anymore. It's a lot of people scattered around the state of Arizona, state of Colorado, State of Utah, and they're just trying to live the best they can. They still do receive sermons and teachings from Warren Jeffs from Time to time from prison, from some of the leaders that are still able to go and talk to him and spread his word. So he's still in charge of these people, the ones that are following him. But it's not so much a community anymore as it is families scattered around. They're still trying to follow his teachings.
John Dehlin [03:37:37] Who can't have sex in marriage and who can't get married and who can't have children ever.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:37:43] There haven't been children for the last.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:37:46] It's been a couple years now.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:37:47] Yeah, years. I want to say, like five now.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:37:50] It's been a long time. Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:37:53] I'm just stunned.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:37:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:37:55] Yeah. I mean, it just. But it also just goes to show how resilient belief is because people are like, well, how can Mormons still believe in 2022 with the CES letter and Mormon stories and, like, you ain't seen nothing. You know, LDS Church members, there are people still believing that war. Even though Warren Jeffs is in federal prison on child rape charges and he's told his members that they can't touch each other, let alone have sex or have children. And your parents, Sam, are still faithful.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:38:25] They're still waiting for the day that God comes down and breaks down the prison walls and his servant Warren Jeffs walks out and reclaims his people.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:38:33] Yep.
John Dehlin [03:38:34] And I wonder, if Warren Jeffs dies,
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:38:36] he'll be a martyr. He'll be just like Joseph Smith.
John Dehlin [03:38:39] But then who will be the successor?
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:38:40] There will always be someone to stand up and say, warren told me that I should follow,
John Dehlin [03:38:45] and then it just starts over again. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:38:49] But I do believe that unless Warren dies very quickly, that if he is allowed to keep on doing what he's doing for much longer, the time will come where without new children being born into the religion and the belief, it'll be too late for someone else to stand up because everyone will be so scattered and just kind of doing their own thing at that point, that there won't be a religion anymore.
John Dehlin [03:39:12] Long live Warren Jeffs. Right. Oh, long live Warren Jeffs.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:39:18] That's what they think. Yeah, that's what they think.
John Dehlin [03:39:20] Let him live another 40 years so that the church can implode.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:39:24] Yeah, well, he's in isolation right now, and they believe that he will be put in gen pop fairly soon, and they don't believe he will last much
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:39:31] longer as a child predator. They said that they don't tend to last very long in general.
John Dehlin [03:39:35] Please don't put him in gen pop. Prison system.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:39:39] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:39:39] Yeah. I don't know. I'M not sure what will happen. It's hard to say which leader would stand up and claim the throne, so.
John Dehlin [03:39:45] Okay, well, this has been part two. You are both amazing, thoughtful, sensitive, brilliant, wise humans. So thank you so much. We decided to do this, like, Friday or Saturday.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:39:59] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:39:59] Last Monday just made it happen.
John Dehlin [03:40:02] Thanks for making it happen. You guys. Don't mess around. You, Jen, thanks for your part in helping make it happen.
Guest 2 [03:40:06] Yeah, of course.
John Dehlin [03:40:07] Gerardo, you were a big part of this.
Guest 2 [03:40:08] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:40:09] As well. Part three, we're gonna do a panel, and we're gonna. We're gonna ask two main questions. This is a cliffhanger. To what extent is it fair to. To compare Joseph Smith to Warren Jeffs? So in what ways were they similar? In what ways were they different? And then part two will be, in what ways is it fair? You know, what ways are the LDS Church and the FLDS Church different versus similar? And we're going to do that also through the lens of Keep Sweet, Pray, and Obey, the Netflix documentary. So, like, you ain't see nothing yet, people. The. The good stuff is still to come. And we're going to have a female family member of yours who can represent women in the floor. Yes.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:40:56] One of my cousins that happened to be in the religion a lot later on than I did, so she dealt with a lot more of the crazy rules that Warren came up with from his prison cell.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:41:07] It's Sam's cousin, and we've done an interview with her. Her name's Joanna. So if anyone wants to go see that before this panel and get to know her a little bit, she's wonderful.
John Dehlin [03:41:16] Okay, we'll try include links to all that in our show notes, but I don't know. I want to try and air this, like, Wednesday if we can, or Thursday before we do the episode. Episode. So we'll. We'll see what we can do.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:41:26] See what we can do.
John Dehlin [03:41:29] All right. All right. Well, the. It's. The names are Sam Zitting Weissen and Melissa Zitting Weissen, formerly known as Melissa Cowles. The podcast is Growing up in polygamy on YouTube and also on Spotify.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:41:52] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:41:53] Huh? Yeah. Please support them. And can people donate to support your podcast or your show? Do you accept donations?
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:42:00] We have memberships on YouTube, but we're
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:42:04] so new to it.
John Dehlin [03:42:05] Oh, okay.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:42:05] So we're still trying to figure out a way to be able to make that happen. So I don't know if we can
John Dehlin [03:42:09] really plug for a paid membership to their YouTube channel.
Melissa Zitting Wyson [03:42:12] There you go.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:42:13] Thank you so much.
John Dehlin [03:42:14] Yeah. Because we want this to. There's a lot. So much to talk about.
Guest 2 [03:42:17] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:42:17] And it's not going away. Cults aren't going away. Polygamy is not going away, and Mormon fundamentalist polygamy is not going away. Like you said, Melissa, there's over 75 fundamentalist polygamous Mormon groups that have over 5,000 members. So that's 400,000 fundamentalist Mormon polygamists. And they're going to be growing.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:42:40] Yes. Interesting to see how that all turns about and see what they do. And I imagine they'll all have different ways of going about it.
John Dehlin [03:42:48] Yeah.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:42:49] So.
John Dehlin [03:42:49] Yeah. So hopefully you'll be youtubing for a long time. Let's get you guys to the airport. Thanks so much. You. You're amazing. Thank you for having us.
Sam Zitting Wyson [03:42:59] Thank you. Thanks for having us.
John Dehlin [03:43:01] And, Jen, thanks for being here.
Guest 2 [03:43:02] Of course.
John Dehlin [03:43:02] All right.
Guest 2 [03:43:03] Thank you.
John Dehlin [03:43:03] All right, well, check out. Don't go anyway. Don't go anywhere. Come back. Right. For part three on Mormon Stories podcast. You all take care, and we'll see you all again very soon. Bye. Bye.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
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One Response
While listening I see more and more parallels with the mainstream church. BKP took all the fun out of life, and that was his goal. Shunning is now expected. And on and on. Our whole lives are supposed to revolve around promoting the projects of the current prophet. That is the definition of a cult.