Introducing the Panel and Episode Context

John Dehlin [00:00:03] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is September 12, 2024, and we are in part two, knee deep, waist deep, throat deep, over our heads in Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. This is our second episode where Mormons slash progressive Mormons, ex Mormons, react to this amazing Hulu series that's taking the Internet by storm. We break down Secret Lives from a Mormon perspective so that you, the viewing public, can either feel represented if you're Mormon slash progressive, post Mormon, or so that those who have been never Mormon can know just how Mormon or not this series is.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] And we love to provide Mormon analysis as well. We kind of cheekily titled this episode are they True Mormons? Because that's going to be one of the major themes today, kind of the Saints versus Sinners dynamic. And we're really excited we're going to be covering episodes. We covered episodes one and two, along with some framework a few episodes ago. Go check those out because that will build a valuable foundation for what we talk about today.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] In the third part, we're going to cover episodes six through eight, so know that we're also going to do a final episode of this as well. We may try and get Dr. Julie Hanks to join us if we can. We may need to bring another chair to do that because not only do we have the amazing Alyssa Witbeck back with us. Hey, Alyssa.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:01:43] Hello. Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:44] And the fabulous Samantha Shelley from Zeph on the Shelf. If that weren't enough, we've got some Gerardo Energy joining us today. Hey, Gerardo.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:01:54] Hey.

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:54] We also have Brit.

John Dehlin [00:01:55] And of course we have Brit. Hey, Britt.

Brittney Hartley [00:01:58] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:59] You're not gonna. You're not gonna leave us early today, are you?

Brittney Hartley [00:02:02] Well, stop talking. So long. Hey, not all of us have six hours a day. Just kidding. I hope to be able to stay for the whole conversation.

John Dehlin [00:02:14] Absolutely. Well, thanks for having me. From a bunker in Boise, Idaho, right?

Brittney Hartley [00:02:19] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] All right. All right, well, let's begin. We've got a lot to cover. Alyssa, just for those who haven't joined us in the past, give us 30 seconds on your awesomeness.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:02:29] Hi, I'm Alyssa. I'm a writer. I love reality tv. I also teach university writing courses that focus on rhetoric and composition, so analysis, critical thinking, all that stuff.

Brittney Hartley [00:02:40] And.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:02:40] And I feel like some of that will apply to our conversation today.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] And you're also a mom and.

Brittney Hartley [00:02:44] I'm a mom, yes.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:02:45] And I'm around the same age, so where I would Be peers to them. Just not as cool.

John Dehlin [00:02:50] Or cooler.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:02:51] Or cooler. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:02:53] I. By the way, I got called out for using the term mommy. Margi. I got home and Margi's like, john, stop saying the word mommy.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:01] No, it was funny.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] I was like, what?

Samantha Shelley [00:03:03] I saw someone in the comments saying, I can't take John seriously every time he says Mormon mommies.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] I didn't know mommy was like a pejorative, but apparently it is.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:11] I didn't think you seemed.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] Yeah. Anyway, I'm going to be more careful. I'm not going to say mommy. And Samantha, you're definitely not a mommy.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:18] I'm a mummy to three kittens. Cat. Fully grown adult cats, actually.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] Wait, this is so childless. Cat ladies are all in the news these days.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:26] It's really nice that you have representation on this panel.

Brittney Hartley [00:03:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:31] Do you support Taylor's recent. No, we won't get it.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:33] Yeah, of course I do, John.

John Dehlin [00:03:35] So, Samantha, tell us a tiny bit about you.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:38] I'm on YouTube @self on the shelf and avid watcher of reality tv and there's nothing else in my brain right now other than this show. So very excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:03:47] You literally said this is your dream job. Talking about reality TV for money.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:51] Yeah, I mean, like, the only way is down after this. I fear.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] Brit, remind us who you are and why you're cool.

Brittney Hartley [00:04:00] Oh, I don't. I don't know about that. I'm quite nerdy. My name's Britt Hartley. I go by no Nonsense Spirituality online. I don't do a lot of Mormon content anymore, but I love getting invited to jump into these Mormon conversations. Most. Most of my work now is in talking about existential crisis and the void and nihilism. And I have a new YouTube channel under no Nonsense Spirituality with a series called A Hundred Tools for the Void.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] I love it and so make sure and subscribe. And Brit's new channel again, what's it called, Brit?

Brittney Hartley [00:04:41] Just no Nonsense Spirituality everywhere.

John Dehlin [00:04:44] And while you're at it, please subscribe to the Mormon Stories podcast channel and like it. Also know that we really welcome our panel. Sorry. We welcome our live audience. We invite you guys to make comments and super chats obviously will be prioritized. And you know, we love feedback and so Maven's going to star those when they come up. But we also thank our regular Mormon Stories donors who donate@mormonstories.org and make all this possible. And Gerardo, remind us a little bit about you.

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:19] I've been co hosting a Mormon Stories for a couple years now. And I don't know what else to say about myself. I, I, I was. I usually don't watch reality tv, but.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] Really?

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] You're into this one?

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:33] I was actually not gonna watch it. And then I watched the first epis. Like, there's so many people talking about it on Tick Tock. And I was like, let's watch it. And I was, yeah, I just binged it all Sunday. I haven't watched the last episode, but. Because I'm leaving that for la for. I'm building up to it, but. But, yeah, I'm really. I really have a lot of stuff to say about it.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] Yeah. So we're super happy you're here. Want to thank Unexcited. He's basically donating so that we have more female panelists. Does that mean I should go away or Gerardo should go away? Which. I'm just kidding. Thank you for that support. I'm excited. Okay. Well, we thought we would begin by bringing some faithful voices to our panel, because none of us. Is it fair to say, none of us are kind of orthodox Mormons. Is that fair to say?

Gerardo Sumano [00:06:25] I'm a little biased, though, but I.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] I think you're an orthodox Mormon.

Samantha Shelley [00:06:29] No, no, no.

Gerardo Sumano [00:06:29] I'm just gonna. I was just gonna say I think we are even more qualified to talk about it because we get.

Samantha Shelley [00:06:36] We.

Gerardo Sumano [00:06:36] We all have been all in, and then we're out. So we have, like, the. In perspective of what it was like to be inside the church and how it is not to see it from an outsider perspective. So, you know, try to be as respectful as possible to people's beliefs because we were part of it, but at the same time, being able to talk about it for a broad audience that might not understand what's going on.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:07:05] I'm guessing a lot of us would have judged those girls as not true Mormons when we were in the church. I know I probably would have. So, yeah, we have dual perspective in that sense.

John Dehlin [00:07:14] Yeah. Perfect. Well, that. That's a great segue to this next slide. We've put together a slide to help, you know, who's Mormon and who's not. Is that a fair way? What's that? Who's good and who's bad?

Rating the Cast on Mormon Orthodoxy

Alyssa Witbeck [00:07:28] Who gets checks? Who gets X's.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] Yeah. Okay. So, Gerardo, I think you helped put this slide together. Do you want to kind of explain to us what the slide's about?

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:39] So.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:40] So there was a recent podcast, Vile Files. Vile Files, where most of the girls were on except for Whitney and Taylor, and they all talk about how the level of religiosity or how and they consider themselves to be in the church. And what we gathered, I mean, we. And we can gather a lot of it from the, from the show as well. And we'll start the top left with Taylor, who was the only one from the group. And this has bothered me so much, John, like that everybody, especially old Mormons are talking about, like this is the swinging reality show that.

John Dehlin [00:08:21] The show, that the show's about swinging.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:23] But Hulu kind of is the reason why they marketed it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:27] Okay. But if you are going to be Hannah Syriac writing articles on the Desert News about a show and you're gonna have this supposed experts talking about how Mormons are not really swingers and this show doesn't portray real Mormons, like maybe you should be a little bit informed about. About the show because Taylor is the only one that was involved in it. She's ashamed of it. She stopped doing it. She divorced her husband who, you know, her and her ex were involved in it, and. And now she's trying to go back to church. Yeah, of course she lives with her, with her boyfriend without being married and stuff. But. But she's going to church. She's active.

John Dehlin [00:09:05] So she gets a check, basically, is what you're saying.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:07] Yeah. And she believes it.

John Dehlin [00:09:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we talked. I don't know if you heard last episode, but we definitely talked about swinging being a thing, a long standing thing in active, faithful Utah Mormon culture. We established that last time.

Samantha Shelley [00:09:21] We established that no one's ever approached you to participate in swinging. And that's been kind of hard for you.

John Dehlin [00:09:26] It's been a struggle. Yeah. But I'll try not to take it personally. Okay. Okay. So we're giving Taylor. I mean, Taylor starts as one of the most kind of unhinged presenting unhinged of the eight. But. But what you're saying, Gerardo, is give her a Mormon check because she identifies as a faithful Mormon even though she realizes she's not.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:50] I'm not sure if she will say I'm a faithful Mormon. She'll say I am a believer. Right?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:09:54] Yeah, she would definitely say she believes. She talks a lot about God and Jesus.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. She understands the church. She understands the what she did was wrong. That's not according to the standards of the church. She understands that. I mean, she's pushing the boundaries, but at the end of the day, she believes Joseph probably had a first vision.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:12] And.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:13] And translated golden plates.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] And with episode two, she's like, I'M going to try and come back to church and try and be faithful. Right.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:10:20] And on the VI Files as well, they said that she was actually going to church even when the swinging scandal broke. So she never really had a big break in time.

John Dehlin [00:10:29] And that's, let's just hit it like this comes up later in the episode. But there's this point that's made. Is church for the sinners or is church for the perfect? This is something that's said in Catholicism and evangelical Christianity and Protestant Christianity all the time. Christianity is for the sinners. We're all sinners. Right. And like, I guess people like Hannah Syriac or faithful Mormons want to say, oh, if you're sitting too much, you're not in, you're not a Mormon. Is that kind of what we're addressing here? The fact that everyone's a sinner. So that doesn't disqualify you from being considered a Mormon.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:11:04] Yeah. And I think that's a lot of what these women have said specifically that that's why they, they still identify with Mormon. They say, yeah, I'm not perfect. They have said multiple times that they're trying to bring awareness to an alternate route to mor Mormonism, to embracing, you know, mistakes or being open about, you know, a lifestyle that doesn't align with everything that Mormonism promotes. And so they seem to really want to lean into that. Even the ones who are considered the saints in this series are saying, yeah, I'm not perfect. You know, the church is for everybody. Nobody should be excluded.

John Dehlin [00:11:35] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so Taylor's in. The next one is Demi. I always want to mispronounce that and say Demi.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:43] What do we know about Demi?

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:45] Demi. She said that she is also believing member of the church. She, I mean, she knows all the lingo. She knows, you know, what to talk about, about the temple, when not to talk about the temple. She, she's endowed. I'm not sure if she has an active temple recommend. She didn't talk about that. But, and I mean she has said that she drinks occasionally, but she doesn't see it as like any other mistake that, you know, another Mormon would make on a regular basis. And, but she's, she's tries to be active in the church.

John Dehlin [00:12:21] Interestingly, like growing up as a Mormon, I, I didn't drink, but family members of mine drank, whether it was teen teenagers or young adults that were just exploring. And let's just say there were close family members who were adults who drank as a way to self medicate or to calm down during a vacation. So, like, and then when I came to Utah, it's almost like a thing for, like, Utah Mormon high schoolers to party right. On the weekends, but then clean up for Sunday. So, I mean, Mormons like to project the image of them not drinking alcohol, and there certainly are Mormons that don't drink alcohol, but there's plenty of Mormons that are active, faithful, and they do. Am I, Am I right? And Britt, you jump in at any moment, please.

Shifting Identity Markers in Modern Mormonism

Brittney Hartley [00:13:12] Yeah, let me, let me address this. It's interesting to watch the change in identity markers. So drinking an early Mormonism, even with the word of wisdom, of course, anyone who listens to Mormon Stories podcast knows that alcohol was a huge part of our early culture. And then later on, especially with the first Strength of Youth pamphlet for, like, my generation as millennials, it was definitely an identity marker for to be Mormon that you don't drink. And now we're seeing that Gen Z has its own identity markers for Mormonism. So things like tattoos and drinking and wearing garments, we know statistically that they don't see those as necessary identity markers to be Mormon.

Brittney Hartley [00:13:54] It's more. So just, is your family Mormon and do you attend church? That tends to be more of the Gen Z identity marker for what makes you a Mormon. So we can, we, we can see actually these markers for who's in and who's out of community. We can change. We can see that change every decade. And something like drinking has gone up and down as, as an identity marker for Mormonism.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:20] Yeah. Yep. I've thought about this a lot, and I think if we go by, you know, the standard that Hannah Zurich and other members of the church are applying is what makes you a Mormon is not whether you're making mistakes or not, but whether you're being public about those mistakes. It makes you a more. If you're hiding the mistakes and not talking about them, then you're a Mormon. If you're public about them, all of a sudden you're being excluded from the community. Does everyone agree with that?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:14:50] Yeah. Secrecy is so Mormon, you know, not just in these things, but the idea of, you know, presenting a certain way. And historically, there's obviously been so many secrets within the church, and so that seems to be the most Mormon part of the culture. And I think that is what makes these women almost the least Mormon is their willingness to, like, be open about all their. Their quote, unquote mistakes and sometimes very valid mistakes. Yeah, that's. I think one of, like, the more fringy things that they're doing.

Brittney Hartley [00:15:18] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:19] They straddle this weird line between not having shame and having shame about the things.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:15:23] Yeah, great point.

John Dehlin [00:15:25] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:25] Yeah, It.

Brittney Hartley [00:15:26] It reminds me of.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:29] Yeah, it reminds me a lot to Elder Oaks, the. One of the LDS Church, the apostles, obsession with people not identifying as gay and then teaching in. In state conferences. Do not identify as gay because you're just the son of God and that's what you should be identifying as. Or Russell M. Nelson, you know, telling people there's the most. The three identities that you should consider above anything else is that you're a son of God, son of the covenant, or whatever. This idea of, you know, anything that's not related to or that doesn't seem to be in accordance to the. The rules that we want you to follow. Just don't be public about that. That seems like a very strong identity marker.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:16:15] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:15] Anyway.

John Dehlin [00:16:16] Okay. Anything else about Demi? She's a green check.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:21] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:21] And then we have Jen.

John Dehlin [00:16:23] Oh, yeah. Jen who?

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:25] Everyone in the group thinks she's the most Mormon she could.

John Dehlin [00:16:30] We all agree she's like Mormon. 10 level, 12 level Mormon, whatever the level is.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:16:36] I think for the sake of this show.

Samantha Shelley [00:16:38] Yeah. Relatively speaking. But I feel like. Well, when I was in the church, I wouldn't have considered her like a 10 out of 10 obedient just because she doesn't wear our garments or she

Alyssa Witbeck [00:16:47] does, but she wears nursing garments a lot.

Samantha Shelley [00:16:49] Oh, she does.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:16:50] So they can be lower.

Samantha Shelley [00:16:51] Okay, that's a boat. Cool.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:16:52] But she doesn't. Every time she's like, goes back and

Samantha Shelley [00:16:54] forth, and it seems like a degree of her, like, zealousness is related to who her husband is and him kind of to Zach. To Zach wearing the pants in that sense. So I feel like maybe she's a bit more Mormon than she would otherwise be.

John Dehlin [00:17:09] But definitely green check.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:17:10] Yeah, yeah, definitely green check. She likes to present that way. But she's also open online of being like, yeah, I'm super Mormon. And she also talks about Mormonism more in this series than most of the women like in her. Her interviews, talking about, you know, trying to explain, like, the priesthood, explaining the church doctrine. And she seems like she's taking that role very seriously.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:30] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:17:31] But then online she'll be like, yes, I'm Mormon, but I've also had sex before marriage, which I think most people would not consider that to be 10 out of 10 Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:40] Although it happens a lot.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:17:42] Although.

John Dehlin [00:17:43] Right. Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:17:43] But like, to her artist point earlier, the fact that she says that is what makes her less Mormon. Than the fact that she's done it.

Samantha Shelley [00:17:50] Yeah, she has the most Mormon Persona I've noticed in different scenes where she's very much emulating the like ideal feminine and Mormonism, even though she's 24. And she. But there's a scene where I think it's later, but she just seems like a 50 year old Mormon mum in like her Persona presentation.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:10] I think I remember there's a rule in missionary handbook for missionaries that says do not talk about past sins with your companions.

John Dehlin [00:18:18] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:19] So this idea of not talking about what you've done wrong.

John Dehlin [00:18:22] Yeah, I remember general conference talk that basically said don't air, air your dirty laundry. And the idea is you just don't talk about any of the hard stuff, any of the mistakes. Keep it positive, keep it upbeat. I think that's how we've been raised. But I also think these women are explicitly doing this series in their minds with the intent of opening things up, talking about things that aren't talked about, creating a bigger tent.

Samantha Shelley [00:18:49] Right.

John Dehlin [00:18:50] And oddly that's why I started Mormon stories. Like it's with that same intention. So.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:56] And they're not trying to change doctrine because it's not doctrine that you shouldn't talk about the hard things or the things that you do wrong. So they're just trying to change the culture.

John Dehlin [00:19:04] Yeah.

Brittney Hartley [00:19:05] Which Mormons?

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:06] Sorry.

Brittney Hartley [00:19:07] No, go ahead. I think what's interesting for me about her dynamic is the church and active Mormons were really concerned about the swinging element. And there was a. About the swinging element. But once you watch the show, there's really nothing about, you know, that thing that happened in the past. And so while the church was concerned about the swinging element, what the world is noticing is that the most Mormon girl on this spectrum of Mormon religiosity is the one who has the most damaging marriage, like the most unhealthy, rooted in patriarchy. She's making the money, watching the kids, yet somehow he's still, you know, calling the shots and running the house patriarch.

Brittney Hartley [00:19:49] And so, you know, they'll say that they're, they're pushing the boundaries, but I think what the world is seeing is like, wow, what an unhealthy marriage dynamic from the woman who claims to be the most Mormon. And I don't think that the church was really, you know, has really responded to that side of the narrative because they were really focused on the swinging element. But I think that that's what when I watch Tick Tock and non Mormons watching this, they're just watching this Mormon who Seems to be the most Mormon. Really have the worst marriage, and that's what they're noticing.

John Dehlin [00:20:21] Ouch. Okay, so what else? Just to clear this slide, what else do we got that's important?

Profiling Each Cast Member's Faith Journey

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:28] Jesse is the only one that has. Seems to have deconstructed the religion or, you know, learned about the history and then left it completely.

John Dehlin [00:20:37] She talked about that. I guess she did go on Girls Camp podcast.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:42] Did anyone watch that?

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:43] I watched.

Samantha Shelley [00:20:44] I did.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:20:44] Yeah. She said that she identifies as ex Mormon. And interestingly, she also said that all of the women on the show recorded their stories of, you know, their religious fervor and how much of the church meant to them. And she was open about how she'd like no longer identified as Mormon. And on the vial files, she said she was a zero out of ten.

John Dehlin [00:21:04] Oh, wow.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:21:05] Which was interesting.

John Dehlin [00:21:06] So she's full on.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:21:07] Full on. Ex Mormon. Yeah. But the show cut all of that, which I think just. I mean, there was other drama going on, but it almost seems like, again, the analysis of whether someone is Mormon or ex Mormon or post Mormon seems to mostly be interesting to people within the group. We're the only ones that are making these distinctions. People that are watching. If you have any sort of adjacence to Mormonism, you get to claim the title. So we're the only ones that are, like, really gatekeeping that.

John Dehlin [00:21:33] Yeah, yeah. And we did reach out to Jesse, and Jesse said she would come on warmer stories. We just haven't heard back, so.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:40] Nice.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] Maybe she'll even come on Mormon stories and.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:44] Okay, so let's go really quickly. Macy is the.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:47] The.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:48] I'm not going in order just to go quick a little faster. But Macy says she has. She has a temple, an active temple recommend. She has a calling. She teaches in primary.

John Dehlin [00:21:58] I think we showed her video last time where she just tells the world I'm super Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:03] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:04] I mean, the only thing that happens in the show that might not be that Mormon is that she doesn't wear her garments all the time.

John Dehlin [00:22:11] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:12] And then Whitney as well. I mean, Whitney, the only thing that happens, probably the alcohol in the first episode, the sip of alcohol and the swearing. And the swear.

John Dehlin [00:22:21] Did any y' all think it was weird that she's dropping F bombs in front of her Mormon mom? Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:27] Yeah, I did.

John Dehlin [00:22:28] Did you ever drop F bombs in front of your Mormon parents?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:22:30] Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [00:22:31] How about you, Gerardo? Is there an F word in Spanish?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:22:33] No.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:34] No.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:34] I wouldn't even drop the F word in front of my non Mormon mom.

John Dehlin [00:22:37] Yeah. So, like, she's just like, regular every day dropping F bombs in front of her mom. That's weird.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:42] But I. I know faithful members, like really faithful wives of bishops who swear. Who swear.

John Dehlin [00:22:49] Yeah. So, I mean, that's just my.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:22:51] I'm glad she has that comfort level with her mom, you know, that she's not pretending to be something different. But it is very interesting and a juxtaposition to her, you know, fervor that she's super Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:01] Yeah, it's.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] It was jarring to me.

Brittney Hartley [00:23:03] But also, the first Strength of Youth of pamphlet has changed. I mean, it was much more specific. Don't say these words. And now the first Strength of Youth pamphlet is like, remember your body is a temple, but it doesn't specifically say no tattoos. And remember to use uplifting language. But it doesn't give you a list of words not to say, like, it is more gray. Like the. The pamphlet that is guiding some of these identity markers, especially for young people.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:23:28] Right.

Brittney Hartley [00:23:28] The For Strength of Youth pamphlet. You can actually see how that played out in my generation as a millennial versus the younger generation, because their language is a lot more flexible. And so maybe it's a weird thing to us, but I don't think it's a weird thing for young Mormons in general.

John Dehlin [00:23:45] Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. And.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:50] And then we have Layla, who seems to be coming back to church. She's been on and off, but at the end she's still a believer. And did you say she has a

Samantha Shelley [00:24:03] combat as well, isn't she?

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sixteen.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:24:06] Yeah. Since the show has aired, she has a new boyfriend who is active Mormon who she said specifically doesn't drink or smoke. So that's, you know, that's pretty Mormon by these standards.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:19] And then lastly is Michaela, who says that she grew up Mormon, but in California and, you know, very relaxed type Mormon, just as Macy, actually. But anyway, Michaela has been. Hasn't been active for 10 years, but she hinted us like, I'm open. You know, she hasn't lost her faith or deconstructed the religion.

Samantha Shelley [00:24:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:45] Not everybody who stops attending church deconstructs their belief. So you can be out of the church 10, 15 years, 20 years, but still believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. The Book of Mormon's true. Usually those people just feel a lot of shame. It's like, I'm not doing. I'm not living how I should, but I still believe it's true. And that's actually. We call those Jack Mormons in our culture. I don't know There's a female analog for that term, but anyway, that. That might be. What's that?

Samantha Shelley [00:25:15] No, I'm joking.

Brittney Hartley [00:25:17] So typical to not mention Jill Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:25:22] All right, so she's in between. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. So even the sinners are three out of four, you know, still self identifying as believing Mormons is what we're kind of saying. Is that what you're saying?

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:36] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] Okay, that's worth it. All right, so we pulled together some clips from a YouTube channel called Saints Unscripted. Gerardo, do you want to tell us why we are including these?

How Faithful Mormons Are Reacting to the Show

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:46] I think it represents overall how Mormons are feeling about this show, and I thought it would be interesting to kind of play him and. And just respond to it.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] Okay, so what's. What. What should we look for in this first clip?

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:00] Honestly? Julia, help us gather the clips. I just said I didn't have time to guess.

John Dehlin [00:26:05] Oh, that's fine. That's.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:06] We'll kind of be reacting live to it.

John Dehlin [00:26:07] Okay, so we'll call this one's entitled why Call Them Mormon Wives. So we'll tune in and see what's interesting.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:18] Sorry, we calling this.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:26:19] And also why are they claiming Mormon? Yeah, like because.

Brittney Hartley [00:26:23] Is it to draw people in or is it because they legitly are like,

Samantha Shelley [00:26:27] yeah, we're Mormon and we live that life.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:29] What would the alternate title be? The Secret Life of Daybreak Housewives. It's either that, but I think Mormon is just a little bit more.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:26:36] Because Daybreak.

Brittney Hartley [00:26:37] I love that you're calling out Daybreak.

Samantha Shelley [00:26:40] I don't know. I thought they were in each place though.

John Dehlin [00:26:42] Oh, sorry, Daybreak.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:26:43] Sorry, we're getting too.

John Dehlin [00:26:44] My parents live there.

Brittney Hartley [00:26:45] I love that place.

Samantha Shelley [00:26:47] No, but if it said Daybreak Housewives,

Alyssa Witbeck [00:26:50] people would be like, there's appeal to

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:53] people who aren't Mormon by saying Mormon.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:26:55] People love the Mormon. They do stuff.

Samantha Shelley [00:26:58] Yeah. And not love. Like, like this is crazy.

John Dehlin [00:27:05] All right, I got reactions, but I want to hear yalls first. Anyone have strong reactions to that? Like, she always had contempt. The bald one. I don't know her name. I apologize. I don't know their names, but I don't watch the show. And I just saw these clips right before the bald person woman.

John Dehlin [00:27:24] She seemed to have contempt for the use of the word Mormon. And for those who don't know, for like 150 plus years, basically the church embraced and used the title Mormon. And it's just in the past few years that the current Mormon prophet overturned that long history and all of a sudden said the term Mormon as an identity Marker shouldn't be used. And so it's really weird that just in a couple years, this younger generation has contempt for a label that all of us happily used, that the church invested in that identity in the I'm a Mormon campaign for billions of dollars for over 150 years.

John Dehlin [00:28:07] And now all of a sudden, it's almost like spits coming out of her mouth as she's enraged about the fact that anyone would dare refer to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as Mormon. Did that seem weird to y'?

Samantha Shelley [00:28:19] All? Are they not just annoyed that they're identifying as Mormon when, you know, they're so disobedient to the standards? I wasn't sure whether it was.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:27] I think they were going back and forth.

Samantha Shelley [00:28:29] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:29] But yeah, it was kind of interesting.

John Dehlin [00:28:32] Well, that is a thing, right? The. The Mormons all the time.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:36] It's like you should. You shouldn't call your podcast Mormon stories. That's misrepresentation, you know, And I'm like, what am I going to call it? Church Latter Day Saints stories? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Brittney Hartley [00:28:49] To be. To be fair, though. Yeah, to be fair. I think it is natural when. When they're like in the media right now, these Mormon shows, Mormon murder shows, Mormon true crime shows, and then you got the daybells, then you got this show that I think it's a natural reaction to say this representation in the media of all of some of, you know, the stuff that's going on in Mormonism that's more salacious doesn't represent my experience as just a stay at home mom who goes to church once a week. And these are my people and these are my beliefs. So I kind of understand that reaction in the context of all of the negative press in the media surrounding Mormonism, which.

Brittney Hartley [00:29:31] Which often they deserve. You know, it's like the billion dollars. And. But when you take all of those news stories together, of course they're going to say, that just doesn't represent my experience as a Mormon. And so I do understand that. But to Alyssa's point, like, if they're not Mormon, what are they? They're not anything else. And if you want to call the show Utah Wives, as if Utah culture and Mormon culture are somehow like, you know, able to separate.

Brittney Hartley [00:29:58] They're one in the same. Like, only on the inside do we care, you know, the gatekeeping of how Mormon are they. But from the outside, like the. And the hair and the language that they use, even the ones who are out are still highly Affected their brains are still Mormon brains. Like, I still understand them in the context of Mormonism. And so what else are they? What else are they other than Mormon?

John Dehlin [00:30:20] And Hulu would never have done this show if it was just Utah women. I mean, Hulu wouldn't care. Right. And all the major plot points are carefully chosen to evolve around Mormon tension, which we're going to get to in just a second. Really quickly, Julia put this slide together that I think we try. Tried to make this point last episode. We just want to make it again. Visually, the Mormon Church, on the one hand, is proud to claim 17 million, you know, members worldwide. Am I wrong? Am I wrong, y'?

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:51] All?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:30:51] Oh, they love talking about it.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:52] Don't count anyone.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] Yeah, yeah. So on the one hand, the church

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:55] people that are 100.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:30:56] What?

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:56] 100?

Brittney Hartley [00:30:57] When.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:57] When do they remove your records?

John Dehlin [00:30:58] When you're like 110, they'll take you off the rolls. And you know, we're not. We're not kidding. So. So on the one hand, The Mormon Church, LDS Church, wants to claim 17 million members. On the other hand, we just want to remind everybody, roughly 35% of those 17 million are either active in the church and or self identify as Mormon. And so this is. Julie put this together. The vast majority of members, people baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that the church claims would not self identify in this way and would not feel comfortable identifying with the way that these podcasters, you know, want people to sort of meet the criteria than to be able to call themselves Mormon. And so I just think that's important point, you know, so you're right, Brit, but I think you also agree that this is complicated. Right?

Brittney Hartley [00:31:50] No, I get that.

John Dehlin [00:31:51] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:31:52] I was just gonna say there's not 17 million weekly temple goers or tithe payers or. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:31:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah, not even close.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:59] And I bet there are women in that show who are paying full tithing, like obscene amounts of money to the church. And then for members of their own in group to be like, they don't really count, though. And it's like, well, they're giving 10 of their income to this organization. Does that not count?

Brittney Hartley [00:32:13] Yeah, that's what Jen's mom or Sorry, no, Taylor's mom. Taylor's mom just did a tick tock saying how hurtful it was that she fully claims. This is Taylor's mom claims. I'm an active Mormon. My daughter is a Mormon and she is essentially just talk to the Mormon community. In her most recent TikTok that she was so disappointed that everyone is just saying, like, you're not enough and you're not Mormon enough. And it made her ashamed of her own religious community that people could be so mean and people could be so cruel. So I thought that was actually a vulnerable and honest post that she made, even though she's a problematic character of her own.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] Yeah. All right, the next clip we have. And by the way, is this YouTube channel kind of like trying to be. Be the faithful.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:59] Answer to us, basically.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:04] That's kind of fun. These are like our nemeses. What's the word? They didn't even watch egos.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:08] But they didn't even watch it.

John Dehlin [00:33:11] They didn't watch.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:11] No, they. They made a response without watching this.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] Oh, they never watched the actual show.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] Okay. That's ridiculous.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:19] And they titled it Neo Mormon Trash tv.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] Wow. Can you really call something trash TV if you didn't bother to watch it?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:33:27] Is that problematic as someone who watches tv, reality TV and hates when people dish on it without watching it? It is problematic, John.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:37] Trash can still provide important, coach. So then it's like, is it trash? It's crisp for the mill.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:33:43] It's valuable trash.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:44] Yeah.

Brittney Hartley [00:33:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:45] I mean, in all seriousness, we addressed this last time like. Or maybe we talked about it after. Like, on the one hand, I'm like, I've been trying to get mainstream global television to talk about so many of these issues for like 20 years. So on the one hand, I'm lamenting, why is it that it takes a reality TV show for us to talk about things like Mormon sexual shame, Mormon gatekeeping garments, you know, in group out, group stuff. Like, sad that it has to be reality TV to bring this to us. On the other hand, yay, reality tv that's getting these issues talked about and in mainstream media. So if I wasn't successful, how can I now decry or belittle reality TV for being able to bring to the mainstream what I and others we weren't?

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:37] Is that fair?

Samantha Shelley [00:34:38] Yeah. And it's just a fact that, like, these giant media companies are going to be able to have the most reach. But like, things like Mormon stories, podcasts have been like, part of creating that wave.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:49] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:34:49] So it's all connected.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:34:51] Also think is why it's important to talk about these shows whether you think they're trash or not trash. Like, there are millions of eyes that are looking at this. And so whether you like it or not, I think it's necessary for us to be able to say, okay, what messages are these shows trying to Send us about Mormonism. What messages are these shows trying to send us about purity culture, about Utah culture, about marriage, about, you know, about young marriage, about divorce, all of these things. And so it doesn't, I mean, the show, you can say, oh, it's vapid or oh, it's funny or whatever, but the actual themes are things that are actually really important and they're conversations that you might see in like, you know, high brow media and books and literature and things like that.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:35:30] But that's not going to get nearly as many eyes on it. And so kind of have to use this as the launching off point to have the bigger conversations.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:39] But the reality is that Mormonism is fascinating for an outsider and I don't think Mormons see it that way. You know, I had a conversation yesterday with a co worker who, he grew up in Pennsylvania. He, he has never, it was his first time in Utah. And he was asking me all these questions about what is this building? Because we were in, in around Temple Square and I was explaining, well, this is where Mormons do rituals and not everyone's in, not everyone's allowed in. And I told him like my, and what kind of rituals? I was like, well, weddings happen there. Like I said, my sister got married in December, but I was not allowed to go in.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:36:17] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:17] And he's like, what? That's crazy. And these things that are like kind of day to day experience to Mormons, they think that that's how the world is and like, oh, we're not, we're, we're not that crazy. You know, I've seen, I mean, again, going back to Hannah Syac and her responses of like, we're just normal people, like loving Jesus and like doing and following the commandments. But when you really put it into context into what it means for the real world to have a place where you do these secret rituals and then not every, you exclude family members who don't follow all the rules.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:51] And you know, you, you believe in golden plays that were delivered by an angel and a translation of an Egyptian papyri that every, all Egyptologists say that, you know, it's not a true translation. Like all of this is fascinating to an outsider. So you don't really need, I mean, obviously it's exponential when you combine it with a story like swinging. But.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:37:16] Yeah, right. But it is like, yeah. Inherently interesting and kind of like what John asked us last time is, do we still identify as Mor? And I think immediately following leaving the church, I, I stopped feeling like I was Mormon. I was like, oh, that's not a part of my identity anymore. And it took moving away from Utah, having friends who had no relationship to Mormonism at all, and then them just being so fascinated by like Mormon culture for me to realize, oh yeah, no, I definitely am still very Mormon. I'm still very entrenched in this. It doesn't really matter whether I practice or believe it at all because I went through the temple, I did, you know, all the secret handshakes. Like that is wild to a lot of people.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] Yeah, yeah. And I just, I don't remember if I read this list off the air or at the end of last episode, but I'm just going to read it again. These are the topics, just a small subsample of the topics that I've been trying to cover on Mormon stories for 20 years that this show, Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, is covering. All right, Law of chastity, which is sexual morality, impurity, purity, culture, sexual shame, sex being a sit next to murder, which is scriptural inorgasmia, sexual dysfunction, masturbation, pornography use, infidelity, patriarchy, feminism, early marriage and motherhood.

Family Relationships, Shame, and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:38:37] Conditional and unconditional family love and relationships, controlling and judgmental parents, word of wisdom, drinking, alcohol, drug use, etc. Shame based gossip, perfectionism, plastic surgery, expectations of women appearance and body, etc, racism, boundary policing in group out, group gossip, queen bee dynamics, religious hypocrisy. And that's just the list I came up with just off the top of my head. And you could just go back and see entire multi hour Mormon stories podcast episodes trying to cover these topics. So again, I'm only just trying to make the point that this show, any of you Mormon or ex Mormon who hate the fact that it's reality TV that that's getting the spotlight around Mormonism and ex Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:39:29] You should also thank your lucky stars that this show is, is able to do what none of you and none of us have been able to do so far. Is that fair?

Brittney Hartley [00:39:39] Yep.

Samantha Shelley [00:39:40] Yeah. And I also feel like there's a degree of sexism in some people's just like instant disgust with reality TV because like typically women enjoy reality TV and enjoy watching like emotional drama play out. Yeah, just something like.

John Dehlin [00:39:56] Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. It's. It's like look down your nose at.

Samantha Shelley [00:40:00] Yeah, like I saw people in your comment section saying you were delegitimizing yourself as a podcast. I'm like, this is the, it's the number one show on Hulu. It's about the topic of your podcast.

John Dehlin [00:40:09] It's on The Hulu homepage for like a week, right? Yeah, yeah, we're not going to cover it.

Samantha Shelley [00:40:14] You're delegitimizing yourself by lowering yourself. Gonna be culturally important regardless.

John Dehlin [00:40:21] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:24] I have really strong opinions about how important I think this, this show is.

John Dehlin [00:40:27] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:28] And I mean, just a summary. Like imagine just your regular teenage girl who watches the show and see these women who are business owners who, you know, are the main breadwinners of their homes who are pushing against the boundaries of patriarchy and pushing against things that may not be necessarily commandments, but they can see that, you know, there's a problem with Mormon culture that can be solved by pushing these boundaries. I think it's is really important, but.

John Dehlin [00:40:58] Yeah. All right, let's go to the second video clip from this Faithful Mormon YouTube channel of faithful Mormons who didn't bother to watch the show but have very strong opinions about it. The title is Seeing Mormon Mormon as a Culture. Can people claim a Mormon identity from a cultural lens or even an ethnic lens if they're not true believing or TBM Mormons.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:41:30] Okay. Do you think that even if someone has left the church, but maybe not in a way that they are like super mad at it and they want to fight it, they just like decide that their life is going a different direction and they step that way for those people. Do you think that they can still identify as Mormon as members?

Video Clip 1 [00:41:47] Would we gatekeep them?

Video Clip 1 [00:41:49] Would we?

Video Clip 1 [00:41:49] Well, yeah, I don't know that.

Video Clip 1 [00:41:51] No, that's a good question.

Video Clip 1 [00:41:52] And maybe they use the term Mormon in that sense because they're not going to say, hey, I'm a member of the Church of Christ Latter Day Saints, because at that point they're not anymore. But to say Mormon is Mormon more

Video Clip 1 [00:42:01] of like a cultural.

Video Clip 1 [00:42:03] Yeah, I feel like they're talking about

Video Clip 1 [00:42:04] it more as like, like when they

Video Clip 1 [00:42:06] say, yeah, I used to, I, I've

Video Clip 1 [00:42:08] met a lot of people or I met a lot of people on my mission who would say, yeah, I used to be Mormon. Like, they use that term to just

Video Clip 1 [00:42:14] kind of associate with how they grew

Video Clip 1 [00:42:16] up and, and like, so I just kind of assume when someone's like, yeah, I used to be Mormon or I grew up Mormon, that they're usually just not anymore. They don't really claim it anymore.

Video Clip 1 [00:42:25] But it seems maybe the word Mormon

Video Clip 1 [00:42:27] has evolved into the cultural identity of

Video Clip 1 [00:42:30] being raised in Utah and things like that, or outside of Utah as well.

Video Clip 1 [00:42:34] But being a member of the church,

Video Clip 1 [00:42:36] being raised that way.

Video Clip 1 [00:42:37] Yeah.

Video Clip 1 [00:42:38] Which is why I think it's really wise that President Nelson had us associate, you know, change our name. I mean not change our name, but refer to ourselves as members of the

Video Clip 1 [00:42:47] Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day

Video Clip 1 [00:42:49] Saints because you can see a distinction when people use the term Mormon versus like the Church of Jesus Christ.

John Dehlin [00:42:56] What do you guys think? Okay, you're laughing. Why?

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:00] Oh,

John Dehlin [00:43:02] you go, no, no, you're laughing. Come on.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:05] Well, I just thought it was funny, you know, that say, oh, maybe Russell Nelson was just had this vision of people in the future identifying as, as Mormon as a cultural term. So now we need a way to identify the true believers. And so we're going to change our name to the Church of Jesus Christ

John Dehlin [00:43:24] of Latter Day Saints. Yeah, like he didn't get a vision about trans rights or he didn't get a vision about like a flood or you know, political turmoil. He got a vision about like the nickname of the church and like how we need to stop using that. But, but I was, I was just curious about the idea of that being smart. Do we all agree that it was smart for the church to abandon the, the title Mormon?

Brittney Hartley [00:43:52] I think so. For me, when I, for me, when I listen to that, if, if Russell M. Nelson and the PR team around him was watching that clip where someone said, I'm so glad that the prophet differentiated how Mormonism is seen kind of in the media compared to like what we want to be, I think that they would all pat each other on the backs that, that we did what we wanted to do, which was at the time separate what we're doing from other things going on the media, specifically at the time in the conversation around Warren Jeffs. And so if that's what believing members feel like is happening, that I don't associate with all this Warren Jeffs and you know, this Hulu show and the Chad Daybell, I'm doing this thing over here as the member of a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day says, if, if they feel like that's what's happening, then I think that that's what the profit and PR team wanted to happen.

Brittney Hartley [00:44:47] And so I, I think that's what they wanted to do because of how Mormons looked in the media, especially during the time of Warren Jeffs.

Samantha Shelley [00:44:55] I feel like it's mostly useful for self soothing among members because people outside of the church haven't really, I mean, some, you know, journalists have got the memo that they're not supposed to say Mormon anymore. But it's pretty hard to get away from the term Mormon for outsiders when the alternative is ludicrous.

Brittney Hartley [00:45:13] It sure. Like, but for like, the insiders, like, for a believing Mormon to say that she, like, is, like, sees the distinction and she's over here than it did for the in group. I think what the PR team and or profit wanted it to do.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:30] Yeah, yeah, totally.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:45:31] Yeah. I think the change is almost exclusively within the in group. And, and maybe to your point, Britt, I do think there is a way that it can be, you know, valid as far as, like, distinguishing between, like, Warren Jeff's FLDS and the more mainstream church. But it seems like there's definitely a lot of ways that people are using it as virtue signaling. Like, oh, I'm more. I'm more a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints than you.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:45:57] But even in the Secret Lives show, Whitney says that she's a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints about a hundred times. So a lot of the other women like to say Mormon, but you even see there in this show, it's kind of like comes across like this sense of piousness. And I think culturally that's really how it feels. Is this. Yeah, this like, tiered pious attitude that does happen in the show. They tried to make a distinction that we're not Mormons. I mean, some of them do. But yeah, Whitney specifies we like to be referred to as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] So really quickly, my understanding of what happened is they did some brand evaluations. Like, literally, they hired Madison Avenue types and just said, how's the Mormon brand doing? And everybody outside of the church, basically the, the, the most common reactions that came up to the Mormon brand, it was like either Amish or polygamists or like bigots or racists. And that was kind of the Mormon brand. And of course, there was a little bit of, like, missionaries or like nice families or the Osmonds. But my understanding is the feedback was overwhelmingly negative. And so my understanding is Russell M. Nelson, number one, wanted to shed a negative brand and do a rebrand, which

Samantha Shelley [00:47:15] he'd hated for decades, like, which he hated anyway. Did any of that research, for sure. It's just been his pet thing, no matter what.

John Dehlin [00:47:21] So it was a pet thing. The brand was damaged. Everybody knew it. The Book of Mormon musical was coming out, making the church look ridiculous. And I think it just in all in sincerity, he, Nelson, probably wanted the church to be more Jesus Christ focused. So if you always have to say Latter Day Saint or member of the church, Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints, or the Church of Jesus Christ, then you're naturally running from a damaged brand and then trying to emphasize what's more important to the church, which is Jesus Christ. The problem is you're abandoning how the rest of the world thinks of you and what they call you and how they know you.

John Dehlin [00:48:00] And you're also abandoning a short, easy to remember termination that the church spent billions of dollars investing in, not to mention all the search engine optimization benefits that they had by owning Mormon.org and by owning all the SEO around the term Mormon. Now, I will say another reason they ran from the term Mormon is because podcasts, podcasts like Mormon Stories and Mormon Matters and Mormon Think the website and Mormon Expression discussion, they were dominating at least the podcast realm, a lot of the web space, and the church was just losing the SEO battle. But anyway, these are some of the insider things.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:48:41] Yeah.

The Future of the Word Mormon

John Dehlin [00:48:41] And what do we think when, when Nelson dies, does Oaks or a subsequent prophet allow the, The. The. The term to, to become associated with us again? Or does Oaks and others perpetuate this, you know, this condemnation of the, of the term? Anyone?

Samantha Shelley [00:49:01] I can see them easing up on it.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] Go ahead, Brit.

Brittney Hartley [00:49:04] I'll go at that question for me, when I watch these things historically, to Alyssa's point that sometimes, you know, we have a rebranding or a renaming in order to kind of judge piety and, you know, when you really need to up the markers to see who's in and out. So if Mormonism becomes this kind of fuzzy thing where it's Utah culture and it includes flds and it, you know, it includes preppers and the day bills, if the boundaries start to get really fuzzy within the community, there, there's then a demand to, can we have some different words or markers here to see who's. Who's in my group? And so, you know, that identity marker became, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ Flattery Saints.

Samantha Shelley [00:49:45] Oh, okay.

Brittney Hartley [00:49:46] Then that means you're not any of these other things.

Samantha Shelley [00:49:48] Right.

Brittney Hartley [00:49:49] And so like Sam is saying, maybe when, you know, and then these things loosen up over time, and then there'll be. It gets too fuzzy again, and then there'll be another new thing. And these. It just kind of ebbs and flows. It goes in and out based on what's going on with the community at the time. So if Mormonism in the future, especially as the faith crisis wave calms down, if they kind of stop circling the wagons and, and being so defensive and having to really up the identity markers, when that calms down, then I think you'll See the term Mormon come back. I think you'll see a lot of things come back until it gets messy again and then they'll, they'll pull back the reins again and, and you can see this, you know, across Mormon history.

John Dehlin [00:50:34] Yeah, I just think for the most part, I think Nelson gets an F in successfully convincing the world to refer to us as members of the Church of Jesus Christ alone. Even, like at the Salt Lake Tribune didn't rename her podcast Mormon Land to Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints Land. And she's like a temple recommend holding faithful Mormon, like in every way. But it's just journalists alone are just not gonna use, they're not gonna stop using the term Mormon.

Brittney Hartley [00:51:07] Part of that is also the hypocrisy, though, because when you call gay people who want to be referred to as gay and you call them. No, we're going to call you people with same sex attraction, but then you have a preferred name that you want the world to call you. I think everybody called bullshit on that. Like, you don't get to have your preferred essentially pronoun or your preferred name, your preferred identity and then kind of language police other people's preferred identities. And I think people were really quick to catch up on that hypocrisy, especially the gay community.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:42] Yeah, I love how in that podcast clip they were like, we, we can't gatekeep. Right. Like, but maybe he thought about it.

John Dehlin [00:51:50] Yeah, yeah, we'd love to.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:51:52] I do feel like the timing of this where it's just like a few years after they've tried to, you know, tighten the reins on what they call it call the church. And also this idea of trying to be less culty, less weird, more normal, more mainstream. But the church is still like, in this, like, push and pull with that identity right now and that struggle. And so we see this show, these women who are saying exactly what Nelson has been trying to say, right? They're saying, we love Jesus, we love God, we're Christian, we're a part of this church. Like, it's not weird, it's totally normal.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:52:26] We're like these fun, attractive women that are, you know, totally not weird. And the response from Mormons, I think would kind of go against. I mean, the church made their statement and yes, they are drinking. So it's not that they're doing things perfectly aligned with the church, but their mentality that they're coming at this with, it's okay to be a little bit different. We just are trying to follow God. We're just, you Know, more mainstream, I think is really aligns with what Nelson has been trying to promote. And so the fact that it has. That their identity has been so intensely scrutinized, I think just kind of shows that even for Mormons, for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, they are still like, not fully buying into that idea that they are mainstream, that they are just Christian, that that's good enough. They're like, well, no, it's actually still not good enough because you're not doing xyz.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:18] Yeah. All right, let's jump to the final clip we have from Saints Unscripted. And this one is all about. It's entitled Representing the Faith. And I haven't heard this yet either, either. So let's. I'm hearing this for the first time.

Samantha Shelley [00:53:32] Like a lot of us, even, like

Alyssa Witbeck [00:53:35] when I follow, like Taylor, Frankie Paul's account, they posted that. It was a couple weeks ago.

Brittney Hartley [00:53:41] They posted that they did church at

Alyssa Witbeck [00:53:42] home, like, get ready for.

Brittney Hartley [00:53:44] With us to do church at home.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:53:45] And they have done ones where they've gone to church, but they just did church at home that day for whatever reason. And they had activity books for their

Brittney Hartley [00:53:53] kids that had primary stuff.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:53:56] And they showed them saying a prayer and whatnot. But also in the morning, it showed that they made iced coffee to prepare for church at home. And they're like, yeah, we're Mormons that drink coffee. Like, what of it? And then a lot of people in the comments were like, oh, my gosh,

Brittney Hartley [00:54:08] I'm like, this too.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:54:10] Like, there are just certain, like, I love the church, but I also, like, I also drink coffee and I also do this. And you totally don't need to go to church to. To have like, a fulfilling church experience and blah, blah, blah.

Brittney Hartley [00:54:22] So there's definitely a group, there's definitely an audience who relates to this, these people.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:27] And I have a thought.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:54:28] It is, it's interesting that.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:31] So is it okay, Is it okay for people to have be on a spectrum of faith? I think yes. Right. But is it okay for that the people that are on wide ends of this spectrum to be representing to people who don't know of the church, the wives in that church? And I think that's what's harmful to people.

John Dehlin [00:54:54] Interesting, Interesting thoughts on that.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:56] They kind of seem to have this bias that they're the reasonable middle, because she said it's not right for people on either ends of the spectrum. But I would say that it seems like these people want, you know, the pretty much the highest end of the Spectrum to be the representation for the church.

John Dehlin [00:55:14] Yeah. Are like, orthodox paid apologists for the Mormon Church? Do they represent the mainstream? Do they, like, these people. Are these people the mainstream? Like, which.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:28] I mean, Kwaku, who doesn't wear his garments and he's proud of it.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] Yeah. Or Cardan, who, you know, uses medical cannabis and is happy that he gets to break the rules because he has a medical cannabis card. Like. Like who. Yeah. Who gets to be a mainstream, especially, you know, like, we just showed this slide already.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:49] They are on the extreme ends, these apologists. Am I wrong?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:55:54] That's how it comes across.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:55] Yeah, but it is.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:55:56] I mean. Yeah. I don't know. I think the main thing that I was really taking from that is. And I don't have an answer. It's just more of, like, an observation. Just who. What does representation mean? You know, in. In this context? I think we, a lot of the time think, like, who's representing the church? It's. It's the missionaries that are going out, and they're like. They're the ones that are saying, we're representing God. That's, like, what we're assigned to do. These women didn't sign up to be, like, the token Mormons for the world to see. They didn't have any part in what the show was called.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:56:27] They are Mormon. Mormonism is a big factor of their life. And they say that, but it is really interesting that, like, you know, that. That the perception is that they're not representing Mormonism. Well. And why is it necessarily their job to represent Mormonism in any particular way? Because they're on a Hulu show. I don't know. They are Mormon, but I don't think anybody is watching this saying that is what every Mormon looks like. Like, they're on a reality TV show. That seems kind of obvious that most people would assume that they're not rep. Like, you see Housewives of Miami. You don't think that's what every housewife in my house.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:04] But even then, they have the problem as, like, how do you pick? Like, let's say that they get their dream, right? Like, and they get a show. We're gonna represent what. Like, what Hannah Syriac envisions as the epitome of a Mormon wife. Where are you gonna find it? Is it the one that has a calling? The one that rejected a calling? Is it. You know, how. How do you pick?

Samantha Shelley [00:57:29] And if you showed the representation they think that they want, the world is going to be even more disturbed by it. Like, there's no winning here.

John Dehlin [00:57:38] I mean, the treadwalk phenomenon isn't coming out too well. Right.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:57:42] Which I think is part of what is kind of sad about the reaction to the show, I think, as opposed to, like, what they expected. I'm just thinking of, like, Jen specifically, who has been, I think, kind of saying, like, we want to give, you know, we don't really want to show the church in a positive light. She's the one that's the most Mormon. But nobody's talking about how she's putting the church in a positive light. Nobody's really talking about how empowered these women are. They're talking about how they're in this really unhealthy relationships, a toxic marriage. Right, right, exactly. And I think, like, even when they're going into it and they said, I'm thinking of Jen, and maybe it was Macy who said specifically that they were a little bit tentative about they didn't know what the name of the show was going to be.

The Show's Portrayal of Mormon Culture vs. Official Teachings

Alyssa Witbeck [00:58:20] They were nervous about wearing like the blue trench coats in front of the temple. They were worried about what message the show editing team was going to like, how they're going to make that look because they didn't want the church to look bad. They wanted that. They were proud of the church. And even with that, it's not the editing, it's not the temple and the music that I think is why people are so shocked. You know, I think that's why Mormons are. Are appalled because we have the Sam Smith getting down in front of the Mormon Temple. But it's, it's the content of the relationships mostly that are. That have people questioning Mormon culture.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:53] Yeah, yeah. And yeah, that's a problem when you really get into the nitty gritty of what. Of what? I mean, when you're trying to decide who is the one representing Mormons and. Well, again, is it the bishop that accepts his Mormon whose gay kid who's married to another man, or is it the one that shuns them or kicks them out of the house?

John Dehlin [00:59:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I loved it that they started that clip by going, it's okay to have a belief spectrum. Right. That's okay for the people to have.

Brittney Hartley [00:59:28] I heard you laughing.

John Dehlin [00:59:31] But at the same time, like before, just 15 years ago, there was no such thing in Mormonism as the idea of a progressive Mormon or a liberal Mormon or a New Order Mormon or any of that. You were either like faithful in the church or you were like ex Mormon or Jack Mormon. So this, this idea of many ways to Mormon or shades of belief or unorthodox versus orthodox. That's a brand new. Like, Mormonism is a relatively young religion, and this idea of orthodoxy, unorthodoxy, literally, most Mormons have never heard the term orthodox or unorthodox in their own context.

John Dehlin [01:00:11] So I guess I'm going to forgive these apologists for looking silly and acting confused about there being a spectrum of Mormon belief, orthodoxy, and orthopraxy. But it's because this is new to almost everybody except for podcasts and channels that have been trying to create a.

John Dehlin [01:00:32] A bigger tent, you know, for the past 15, 20 years. And honestly, I think they have podcasts and YouTube channels and tick tock channels to thank for the expanding umbrella, to be honest.

Brittney Hartley [01:00:45] All right, can I add one more thing here, John?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:00:47] Great.

John Dehlin [01:00:48] Yeah.

Brittney Hartley [01:00:49] For me, that clip really highlights the interesting dynamic between the culture and what's said on the pulpit. Because they affect one another, Right? What's happening in the culture can show up pulpit. What's said on the pulpit affects the culture. But what's interesting when I like to watch the community is see what messages are accepted by the culture from the pulpit. And then sometimes the culture just says no. Like when Covid hit and President Nelson said, kind of go get vaccinated, the culture essentially said no. You're speaking as a man now. And when it comes to coffee, I mean, we have recent talks saying that one cup of coffee kept that mother from her temple blessings and exaltation.

Brittney Hartley [01:01:32] I mean, in general conference, talking about the damage done to your spirituality with one cup of coffee. And essentially the culture, especially young culture, looks at that and says no. Like, no. Like we drink coffee and we're Mormon. Like, they. They essentially, as a generation, as a culture, say no and don't accept it. So it's interesting what, you know, what things the culture will just ignore from the pulpit because they just say no.

John Dehlin [01:02:01] Yeah. All right, well, we got another clip here. This is Leanne May I believe this is Taylor's mom.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:02:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:08] Does someone want to tell us what we're about to watch here?

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:13] Should we run it?

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:14] Yeah, let's run it.

John Dehlin [01:02:15] Let's run it. And okay, so this is. This is Taylor's mom.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:02:20] Yeah. This is the video that Britt was mentioning.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:22] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:02:22] Oh, minutes ago.

John Dehlin [01:02:23] Okay, cool. I don't think I've seen this, so I'm. I'm excited to watch it. So let's hear from Taylor's faithful mom really quick.

A Cast Member's Mother Responds to the Show

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [01:02:32] I'm sure you have heard a lot about the secret lives of Mormon wives. I know. I have my daughter Taylor's in the show. But what really makes me irritated recently is that I see all the backlash from them. Their comments that they receive on social media. I don't know if their families get it as well as we do, but I recently received one that I thought was very interesting and contradicting that. They stated that we, or we, my family and I, should distance ourselves from being with the church and being Mormon because we're not Mormon enough.

Video Clip 2 [01:03:18] And that's pretty hypocritical coming in, saying that on somebody's page and stating other things like these don't align with the teachings. Well, either does that for. For somebody to come and say that I shouldn't be a member of the church because I'm not Mormon enough, or, Or I sin.

Video Clip 2 [01:03:42] Let me tell you. A lot of things happen in the church and a lot of sins are. Are committed every single day, and nobody is perfect. So before somebody should go out and judge somebody else or state that they shouldn't be Mormon or they're not active enough and all the other stuff that comes with it, maybe they should look within themselves and see if they're doing the things that align with the church.

John Dehlin [01:04:10] I mean, that's. That's a mic drop, right? Like, for. For so long. I, I get that on Mormon stories, it's like, oh, you. You're you. You like LGBT people, or you advocate for women, or you don't like what the prophet said, just leave the church. You can leave the church, but you can't leave it alone. Would Jesus be saying, oh, you're not living up to quite all the standards, so get the heck out of my church.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:32] That's like when people tell me to go home to England because I don't.

John Dehlin [01:04:39] Yeah. Other. Other comments. I, I love that point from Leanne. Brit.

Brittney Hartley [01:04:44] Yeah, for me, like, I'm mixed on her because I loved that post that she did. I loved how she called out the ugliness of the Mormon community and how they are acting on social media and, and attacking her family. I, I thought that that clip was great. And so I want to love her more. More. But then we have to talk about, and we probably will sometime today, about her, you know, being at the table with Taylor and telling Taylor how awful Dakota is, and then in the same breath pushing her to get married because she's pregnant. And so it's like, oh, I want to love you, because I loved that TikTok. And also you're a little bit. That. That scene was really hard to watch, but at the End.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:30] She's right. She is being Mormon.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:05:33] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:33] By telling Taylor, go marry that guy.

John Dehlin [01:05:35] Yeah, I would be.

Brittney Hartley [01:05:37] What's more Mormon than saying, yeah, like, you really screwed up. This guy is awful, and when's the wedding? Like, what is more Mormon than that?

John Dehlin [01:05:46] But also, you really telling Taylor, you really goofed up. You need to stop, get. You know, stop embarrassing the family. Don't. Don't shack up and, you know, live with someone out of wedlock. Like, she was a little bit shaming. A lot of shaming, which is Mormon, which is.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:01] Yeah, literally. And Taylor obviously behind all of this because they're questioning, like, the shame that is that it's all running on.

Brittney Hartley [01:06:09] And I think everyone's heart broke when Taylor said, I just don't deserve a happy ending. And we saw how the shame affects her, and we saw how the shame affects the kinds of partners that she picks and the behavior that she's allowed. And she just says, like, I don't. Don't deserve a happy ending. And I think just like, all of our hearts broke for her.

John Dehlin [01:06:29] Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, we've done some meta analysis. Now it's time to dive in just to the. Just to the good stuff on episodes three to five. That's what we're covering today. And so episode three begins with. Let's just. You know, it frames this kind of saint versus sinner dynamic, even though we've kind of debunked that they're pretty much all saints and all sinners. I mean, with the exception of Jesse, right? She's just pure sinner.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:07:07] Please come on. Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [01:07:10] In all the best ways, she's pure sinner, pure exmo. And it's nice to have XMO representation. I mean, since they're more of us

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:19] than faithful and an exmo that can be friends with a ton of believing members and not tell them about Joseph Smith as a sexual predator.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:29] But I'm like, she deserves some fun of friends to go to Vegas with.

Brittney Hartley [01:07:32] Because I felt bad for ex Mormon representation, though. Like, we could not be happier that, like, the ones who seem to be in the best marriages, the ones that you would most want to be friends, ends with, like, ex Mormon representation. I feel like none of them were the villains. So

John Dehlin [01:07:50] I'm just gonna say, Whitney, I'm not so sure that you identifying as a believing Mormon is having the impact the image of the Mormon Church that you think it is. You may consider wanting to, you know, as a favor to the church, self identify as one of the sinners. Really ruthless.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:06] John.

John Dehlin [01:08:06] I Know, make that. Make that a short. I should probably do a dance to it as a.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:13] With the sound. Whitney, do it

John Dehlin [01:08:16] anyway. Okay, so let's just start off with that whole dynamic. You know, obviously there's Jen's baby blessing. Right. And clearly. Okay, it starts out with that Jacuzzi scene where I guess that's Zach. Zach's graduation from byu. Are they at Zach's house?

Samantha Shelley [01:08:40] Zach's parents house.

John Dehlin [01:08:41] Zach's parents house. And, you know, they get in the Jacuzzi and then someone pulls out the flask and they start drinking alcohol. And apparently Zach and Jen are bent out of shape about the fact that anyone would drink alcohol in their presence in a sacred Mormon home. And so as a. As a consequence, Zach and Jen decide to disinvite four of the wives from their baby shower from their baby blessing, which usually is held, by the way, in a Mormon sacrament meeting in a Mormon temple or, sorry, in a Mormon chapel. So I thought that was kind of fringy. They didn't record that during COVID Right. So was that a little bit weird for you guys to see the baby blessing happening in their house instead of in a chapel couple?

Samantha Shelley [01:09:30] I think rich people would do that sometimes. I've seen that before. I've been to one, I think.

Brittney Hartley [01:09:34] I think there's been a shift since

Alyssa Witbeck [01:09:36] COVID kind of changed so that it happens sometimes.

John Dehlin [01:09:40] Okay. Okay.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:09:41] Still less.

John Dehlin [01:09:42] All right, well, I guess I'm showing my age as a. As someone where baby blessings were normally held. What?

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:50] You're showing your inactivity in the church?

John Dehlin [01:09:52] Well, I was. I was excommunicated. Well, I'm saying when I was faithful. Faithful. That's. That's. Yeah, when I was faithful. So anyway, so they're doing it in the house, but anyway, they decide to disinvite four of them from this sacred ordinance To.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:10:08] To make sure it's clear, though. You said that Zach and Jen decided to disinvite.

John Dehlin [01:10:12] Oh, right.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:10:13] Zach decided to disinvite. Jen was just the messenger.

John Dehlin [01:10:17] Yeah. Oh, there's so much to unpack.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:10:19] Yeah.

Exclusion of Less-Active Members From Family Ceremonies

John Dehlin [01:10:19] Okay, so one. Let's just. Let's hit from. From the beginning, this idea of less faithful Mormons being disinvited from things like baptisms, baby blessings, temple marriages. Is that a thing or not a thing? What. What is your experience?

Samantha Shelley [01:10:39] I feel like they normally try and use them as, like, missionary opportunities, though

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:42] it depends on how they're.

John Dehlin [01:10:44] So what's your experience, Rhoda?

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:46] Well, we just had one. We.

John Dehlin [01:10:47] You want to tell us?

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:48] Yeah, like, my husband's side side of side of the family. It was. It was pretty bad because I don't know how much to tell, but basically, Sax parents and siblings, they all live in Idaho Falls, so they don't live here in Utah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:11:09] Wait, maybe clarify that it's a different Zach.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:11] Oh, yeah, yeah. My sack.

John Dehlin [01:11:12] So her is married to a Zach. Check out his episode on Mormon Stories.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:16] And anyway, so he. So one of his cousins, one of his closest cousins, when he was a believer and not. Not married to a man, was gonna have a Her baby blessing. So she invites Zach's mom and siblings to the baby blessing, and Zach never finds out that his mom is coming to Utah. And, like, she's going to be here.

John Dehlin [01:11:42] And Zach lives here.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:44] Yep. Yep. And until we're driving to the neighborhood where the cousin lives, because we were gonna go do some shopping on Sunday, and then he gets a. A text message from his mom and says, oh, we're all here for the baby blessing of your cousin. We forgot to tell you, we're having kind of lunch after the baby blessing.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:07] You.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:07] You can come, but you're probably busy.

John Dehlin [01:12:10] Yeah. Okay.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:12:11] But you're probably busy.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:13] And that was devastating to him to the point where, like, he doesn't talk to that. Those cousins anymore because.

John Dehlin [01:12:20] So Zach was hurt by the.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:12:22] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:22] Really hurt that, you know, he. That the cousins invited his parents to come and travel to Utah from Idaho. Yeah. And basically made an arrangement with his mom of don't tell Zach that you're going to be here until after the baby blessing because he's not invited because

John Dehlin [01:12:43] they didn't want you and him showing up.

Brittney Hartley [01:12:45] Right.

John Dehlin [01:12:46] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:46] And then he later came out because they were scared that I was going to be there.

John Dehlin [01:12:50] But. Brit, do you have any story. I'm so sorry that happened. Gerardo and Zach. I'm so sorry. Brit, do you have any stories like that?

Brittney Hartley [01:13:01] Yeah. And I think it goes down to how dangerous you are as an ex Mormon. So, you know, and I think this is really done on the subconscious level. But if you. As an ex Mormon, there's something about you to the believing member. And I think that most of this is subconscious, that there's something that you know and there's things that you're doing that would totally destroy my worldview and my identity and my belonging. And so the. The most natural thing to do is put a boundary, and people do that without being aware of it and why they're doing it. It's just the most natural thing for an ego to do.

Brittney Hartley [01:13:32] And so I think your ability to be invited in those Spaces on a Mormon spectrum really depends on how many red flags of I'm dangerous you're putting out there. And so, you know, maybe if you're gay or you're come on Mormon stories like I do or you do other things, then you tend to maybe not get invited to those spaces. But if you're very quietly post Mormon and very supportive and just a part of the family, this is just a family ritual and you don't make a big fuss about things, then maybe there can be a lowered kind of danger response from your family and community where you may get invited to those things. But I tend to not. I tend to not be invited to those things.

John Dehlin [01:14:15] Yeah. Okay, so, Brit, you've been excluded from those things too.

Brittney Hartley [01:14:18] Yes. Huh.

John Dehlin [01:14:20] Okay, so is it okay if I. Okay, really quick, Alyssa, have you. Have you ever been.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:14:24] Yeah, I have been excluded from these things as well.

John Dehlin [01:14:26] Would like any examples? We don't have to name names or people.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:14:28] People. Oh, yeah. Baby blessings, weddings. There have been a couple things.

John Dehlin [01:14:33] Okay. All right. So, Britt, is it okay if I push back a little bit?

Brittney Hartley [01:14:36] Sure, please.

John Dehlin [01:14:37] So just as an example, so like, Margi and I, again, we live in Salt Lake City, and, you know, even when we. When Mormon stories. Even when Mormon stories was going, but we were still in the church, you know, but, but, but doing Mormon stories, we would still get invited to baby blessings, to baptisms, to temple farewells, to missionary farewells, and to missionary homecomings. At some point, we started getting uninvited, and we have family that lives, like, within a mile of where we live, and they would do baby's blessings and farewells, again, just like Gerardo, just like Zach, and just totally not invite us. And by the way, these.

John Dehlin [01:15:22] These events aren't just the baby blessing or the farewell or the baptism. They all have food. They all go back to the house. It's just a legit family reunion. Oftentimes people come from out of town. So it's really hurtful when, you know, like, with, like in Zach and Gerardo's case, everyone's coming from out of town. It might be the one time of year that everybody actually gets together and then you're not invited. So it's. I don't mean to be a crybaby here, but, like, this is hurtful.

Brittney Hartley [01:15:49] But don't you think that it shifted, though, post faith crisis wave? Because when I think about my experience. Experience as, like, like, I lost my faith now almost 15 years ago, so, like, kind of before the Internet wave, and. And I did have more flexibility to move around. I even taught seminary and was like very nuanced, didn't believe a lot of things. And I was a still a paid seminary teacher kind of before, you know, the CES letter and before kind of that wave. And I think since the wave of faith crisis within Mormonism, the danger sense is just so heightened. And so if you make any movement that you're a part of that faith crisis crowd, I think it's much more scary now than it was 15 years ago.

Brittney Hartley [01:16:33] We're just like, oh, this weirdo just kind of like doesn't believe in the Book of Abraham because of some weird things I never heard of. And that's just not, that just wasn't as dangerous 15 years ago as it, as it is kind of now where there's such, there was such a pressure on the Mormon Church because of the faith crisis wave, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:16:52] For sure. Brit, I do, I do agree that it's probably gotten more and more scary for believing Mormons to have close relationships with and invite non believing or ex Mormon family members to these events. But the thing I wanted to push back on is that it's only ex Mormon YouTubers and ex Mormon podcasters that are being excluded. I was literally last week visiting some of our closest friends. They live in Utah County. They don't, they're not public about, you know, they're leaving the church. They're not offensive to their family members. They're very kind, subtle, non offensive members who have left the church. And they were, they were telling me in a heartbroken way that one of their favorite nieces came to Utah from out of state to go into the mtc, the mission training center for her mission, that there was a huge family get together again, where people are coming from all over.

John Dehlin [01:17:58] And this particular friend of mine had a very close relationship as an aunt to this niece, but she wasn't even told that the niece was coming to Utah and about to go into the MTC for a year and a half and that all the family was getting together and she wasn't even told that the niece was coming to Utah or was about to enter the MTC or that there was a family reunion. And so all I'm saying is this is real. I'm super glad they caught it. This is a very heartbreaking dynamic that is pervasive in Mormon culture. And it makes me really happy that that real, you know, secret lives of Mormon wives covered it.

John Dehlin [01:18:38] That's all. So anything else we want to say about that whole dynamic? Oh, let's talk about now. The fact that it's, it's Zach who, you know, is really behind this exclusion. But then how it, you know, there's that, there's that conversation where people are calling Jen and Zach and confronting them. Them about being excluded and then how Jen kind of takes the bullet. Does anyone want to talk about that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:06] The exact same situation happened on our case.

John Dehlin [01:19:09] Oh, well, let's tell. Let's. Let's review it and then talk about how it applies. So what, what happens with the dynamic between Jen and Zach? Anyone want one of the women want to recount that?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:19:19] Jen. Jen invites everybody and she, she says, I'd love to have you all. And she clarifies that I know that they weren't all really close necessarily before.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:30] I don't think Jen knew anybody.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:19:31] But she did know Jesse. Jesse were really close. And Jesse is the resident ex Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:36] Right.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:19:38] And, and Jesse has made clear, she did on Girls Camp podcast that she was trying to be a. A non anti Mormon. She was trying to be, you know, a nice ex Mormon. But yeah. So basically she invites everybody. Zach is really offended by.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:19:54] I think, I think the fact that they had the flask in the hot tub was definitely part of it, but just in general, he said that he didn't feel like they were as good at. What did he say exactly? As good at keeping their covenants as you or as faithful as you. Talking to his wife. Trying to basically prop up his wife by. And then tell her that. And also none of your friends are invited.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:20:17] And it sounded like they'd had discussion back and forth. And he was like, no, this is pretty much fine. Not like you need to. You need to uninvite them. And so she came at it saying, we as a, you know, both of us think it's best and we just really want to be there for, for just our baby. We're trying to keep it more intimate. And then later she revealed that she was like, pretty sad about it and that she wanted to invite them, but that he was really passionate about it. And anyway, that was kind of how that went down.

Brittney Hartley [01:20:45] I feel like it was a perfect, like, display of that graphic that we got where it's like an umbrella with God and then there's like the man and then the wife and the children. And it was like a perfect, like, display of that kind of patriarchal order.

John Dehlin [01:21:01] Yeah. And it, but it was also conflicting because, you know, event, you know, there's this point where Jen's basically saying, this is kind of what Zach wanted. And Zach's basically saying, we. It's not that we don't want to exclude you. It's more that we just. It's about the kid. It's about the. It's about our son, and we just want it to be a good, positive energy. So it's not that we're excluding you. Right. Wasn't there some gaslighting there? Or am I misreading that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:32] How about having all the cameramen from Hulu.

Samantha Shelley [01:21:35] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:35] Who are probably not members of the church. Whichever recommends.

Samantha Shelley [01:21:39] But that's the thing. I'm like, if he just didn't, you know, his wife's doing this reality show, and he doesn't want it to encroach on, you know, the sacred parts of their lives. Fine. But, yeah, they still film, so.

Brittney Hartley [01:21:50] That's so true. Everybody else in the universe can watch it, but not you.

Samantha Shelley [01:21:54] Yeah. And Mom Talk is paying for his med school because he gambled away his med school money. So.

John Dehlin [01:22:01] Yeah. Yeah. So. But. But wasn't Zach gaslighting them?

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:06] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:07] Trying to say, hey, it's not that we want to exclude you. We just want to make it about the sun. What?

Samantha Shelley [01:22:12] We just don't want to include you.

John Dehlin [01:22:13] Yeah, exactly.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:22:13] We just want you not there. Which I also just feel like that the way that was presented, too, felt so Mormon as far as him trying to, like. Trying to, like, spin it as a positive, you know, because he was trying to, like, compliment Jen throughout that, like, you're just such a good mom, and we just love our baby so much. We just think you guys are just really bad people. Like, yeah, it just felt like this really weird sugar coating and, like, how

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:42] much was it about control rather than, like, actually thinking?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:22:46] Because I think that's part of it, too, is. I mean, I don't know. Jen probably has other friends and things like that, too. And this is kind of a. I'm not saying this is exactly what's happening. I'm just saying how it was presented in the show is. It looks like, you know, he's isolating her friends from this really important event, and hopefully there are other friends and family there, and she had people there to support her. So I don't. I'm not saying that with, like, my full chest that that's exactly what happened, but the, you know, the optics, the more we learn about Zach later on, kind of seeing those, like.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:23:15] Like, limits of he's now making decisions on who she can and can't hang out with. That's a pattern that is not healthy. And unfortunately, a lot of Zach's behavior that we see on the show, especially later, is kind of. Of goes along that unhealthy line. And I think that's just, you know, just a little example of, like, especially where she's the one that's. That's kind of taking the bullet for it and at first, at least, is pretending like it's a dual decision and is kind of like enmeshing her identity and into his, saying that, like, we chose it together, which I also think is a very, very Mormon thing to do and is expected within Mormonism to, you know, give up your own personal identity in for the sake of your partner, to be able to be like, we move as a team, which I think is good.

The Baby Blessing Conflict and Marital Tension

Alyssa Witbeck [01:24:02] Like, inherently you want to be able to have. You want to be a team with your spouse or your partner. Like, that's a good thing. But we just see the way that that can be going to these extremes where now she's like, kind of like losing herself in him. And again, this is just this. I'm not saying this was a really dramatic incident, but I'm just saying we're kind of seeing these inklings early on that. That become more exacerbated as the series goes on. That is hard to watch.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:27] And Jen admits that Zach has an issue when she became the main breadwinner of the home of, you know, trying to become kind of like second in, maybe in command. Because now how do I balance this? Like, she is the one making all the income and I can't make all the decisions anymore. And you can see that he. I mean, in my opinion, he's taking back control through little things like this.

Brittney Hartley [01:24:59] He handles it by throwing a little tantrum and saying, I don't care about your mom talk. And it's like, that was so hurtful. That was so painful. But I think you're so right. Seeing that moment. I think us Mormon women resonated with the way that we probably subconsciously did this in our own marriages because we were set up from the time we were small children to defer to our father, to defer to our bishop. I have yet to have a single female Mormon client come to me who doesn't need to do, like, work to figure out who she is and what her voice is. I have yet to find, like, a post Mormon woman who just says, like, yeah, I totally trust my own inner voice and intuition. Like, it just, like, I have the best relationship with myself and I know how to navigate all that. Like, it's just so ingrained so early on.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:25:53] Yeah. And I'm just Looking at some of the notes that we're taking, at one point, Jesse says to Jen, when Jen is revealing, like, by the way, like, you guys are not invited. She says, but you're the mom. You should have a say. And I think just with the baby blessing in particular, that is just a really sad representation of how, like, the mother is excluded, you know, so all the women are excluded from this event because the. Jen's friends are excluded. The women are excluded. I was wondering if they were going to, like, have Jen do something just to make the church seem less sexist, but they did not. And Jen is, like, explaining the priesthood to the cameras. Why it's only for men.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:35] That was so awkward.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:26:37] She was trying to, like, be very, like, take it very seriously. Like, she was looking at, like, a missionary moment, like, not kind of.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:42] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:26:43] Making, like, a joke about it, like, with so much earnestness.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:45] She thought it was going to come out as positive.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:26:48] Yeah, it was hard. It was. That was hard to see, too. And. Yeah, so then we see, like, yeah, the blessing. All the men go up in the circle. They don't show the actual blessing, but they show all the men in the circle, like, putting their hands on each other's shoulders. And Jen's just in the back. Like, we see her, like, smiling that with, like, Whitney or whoever else was there. And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:06] And then how they show at the end when the mom comes and, like, there's food.

John Dehlin [01:27:09] Yeah, everybody.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:10] Because that's their role, right?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:27:12] Oh, man. Yeah. Just these things don't just, like, exist in a vacuum. It's just like thing after thing after thing after thing here.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:20] So Mormon. But it's so normal of all the people saying that. This is not Mormon.

Brittney Hartley [01:27:27] It's so normal when you're inside and you're like, yeah, this. Like, I'm gonna make snacks for everybody

Alyssa Witbeck [01:27:32] and then do this.

Brittney Hartley [01:27:33] And then it's like, wait, like, if my power is that. If the little power that I get as a Mormon woman is that I'm a mother, why I'm not. Why am I not the one holding and blessing this child or a part of this ritual at all or. Or not even in charge of the guest list. And so from the outside, we see it, but I don't think that Jen or anyone or me either. Like, I feel. I don't think any of us fully see that when we're in it.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:27:55] And Jen, too, when she's talking about. During her. Her speech, about why it mattered and why she was not going to be the one giving the blessing that her husband Was. She was like, you know, this is a. Just like a little bit. I, I don't think intentionally, but it was a tiny bit demeaning to other religions too because she was like, you know, this is not just say hallelujah and sprinkle a little water on the baby. Like this is the priesthood. And she kind of like slows down. And I was like, this is like, like a special blessing using God's power in my. That has been given to my husband. You know, like. Yeah, there's just kind of an emphasis

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:29] when in reality baby blessings is probably the hardest ritual to describe for Mormons, like to an outsider or even to like, for them to understand because they're not receiving any kind of special. The baby's not receiving any kind of special power and there. He's not receiving a salvific ordinance. So it's like a really hard thing to explain. And then to use it as like the example to say this. Other rituals like baptism in Catholicism is, is, you know, that's not efficacious. But this blessing that we can't even explain what it is

Samantha Shelley [01:29:13] just like sending good vibes to a baby.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:15] It's more powerful. Right, because that's what it is.

Samantha Shelley [01:29:20] Give the baby special powers in the blessings.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:29:22] Yeah, exactly. I'll make this more interesting.

John Dehlin [01:29:26] Yeah, I hated that I wrote this down where, where she basically, Jen says it's more important than quote hallelujah and sprinkling a little water on a baby. Like what she's basically doing is demeaning. What Catholic infant baptism there or christening. Yeah, that was.

Brittney Hartley [01:29:43] Which is a beautiful ritual of its own.

John Dehlin [01:29:46] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:29:47] And I think that was like used as the defense for why the other women weren't there. Like. Yeah, I mean if it was just, if it was just like a sprinkle of water, like then they could be there.

John Dehlin [01:29:54] But it's with the hallelujah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:29:56] With the hallelujah. But this is the priesthood.

John Dehlin [01:30:00] Like Mormons don't do hallelujahs, by the way. Yeah, the hallelujah shout out that's like part of the consecration.

Samantha Shelley [01:30:07] You have to be dead behind the eyes while you do it though. It doesn't count.

Brittney Hartley [01:30:11] That's one of the more culty things that we do. When you watch that. I want to be the devil's advocate for a second though, and just ask as ex post Mormons in this group, would you have if you were at the house of a friend and you knew those friends parents were Mormon, would you if you were a drinker? I'm like John, I still don't drink alcohol, but if you were a drinker, was it appropriate for them to bring alcohol? Do you think, think that that was a douche move on the side of the ex Mormons?

Samantha Shelley [01:30:38] Yeah, pretty.

John Dehlin [01:30:39] I do. Samantha?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:30:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so too. The flask was. It's not like they were having a huge big drinking party, but I do think that was just like a little tasteless.

Samantha Shelley [01:30:49] Yeah.

Brittney Hartley [01:30:50] Isn't that classic, like gross ex Mormon and Mormon behavior? Because the gross ex Mormon behavior is like making a big deal out of it and passing the flask around like you're in eighth grade and it's cool. And it just kind of came off weird and disrespectful. It's not something that I would probably do if I was at a member's house. If I felt like I needed a drink, I'd maybe do it in private or with other people who drank. And so like that part was kind of icky. Ex Mormon. And then how the Mormons react to that was like icky Mormon. And I think it just shows our shadow on all sides there. Like that whole situation, I think showed some ick on both sides. Like, and I want to be fair to when that happens.

Samantha Shelley [01:31:29] Yeah, it's hard because the Mormon, especially because it's someone's parents, it's not even just Zach's house. But it's hard because they have like this magical thinking around alcohol where they're like, even it's mere presence in our hot tub could sully the whole, you know, property. But then it's also like, yeah, but you're in someone else's home and you kind of need to respect that.

Brittney Hartley [01:31:46] I think so too. I think, I think both sides were being classically ick around the outcome.

Samantha Shelley [01:31:52] Completely agree. That was a hard scene to watch. And it was all, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:57] And Britt, like, I, I want to say yes to this idea that we could do entire seasons on ex Mormons behaving badly. And so I want to celebrate that you're bringing that to our attention. And, and this isn't to neutralize what you said, but I do want to distinguish between stuff that's authentically Mormon and stuff that might be just a relic of like this being reality tv. And they're trying to create contrived drama because the disinviting from baby blessings, I think we've already established that's real, everyday lived Mormonism. I think it's almost unheard of for ex Mormons to bring a flask of alcohol to a Mormon you know, family celebration and to be sneaking it where believers can see it. I. That, to me, that is categorized more as reality TV drama than something that an ex Mormon would ever realistically do. But I don't know. Am I wrong?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:32:55] I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:32:56] Disagree with me. What. What do you think?

Samantha Shelley [01:32:58] I have a story.

John Dehlin [01:32:59] Okay. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:59] Well, me and my partner Jared, we bought a bottle of wine to Thanksgiving once at his Mormon family's house. But it was. We knew the vibes enough to know that it wasn't going to be like this huge. You know, it's like they maybe would have preferred it not to be there, but it. You kind of have to suss out the situation, I think. And yet there's something specific about the vibes of, like, passing a flask around in a hot tub that's like, okay, okay. Probably don't need to do that.

John Dehlin [01:33:25] Pushback. We love it.

Brittney Hartley [01:33:27] Yeah, I. I think sometimes ex Mormons, because we have what's called delayed adolescence as a tool, we didn't get normal high school experiences. The whole hot tub scene. And I've seen multiple people say this on TikTok, it looked like adults acting like eighth graders, and the whole world saw it. And I think that we can own up to that. That.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:33:49] That's.

Brittney Hartley [01:33:49] That was a little bit eighth grade. And I think. I don't think it's as uncommon as you're saying, John, because I think sometimes ex Mormons love to sometimes kind of like, rattle things or show that they're not ex Mormon. We have our own identity markers as ex Mormon, and I think sometimes we can be a little bit childish about that. And. And sometimes, you know, bring out alcohol or say things that aren't respectful or we want to look expressly ex Mormon because we want to show that we're so not Mormon, which is a very Mormon thing to do. And so I. I don't know. I think that there are times that more ex Mormons can act like what the world does in eighth grade.

Brittney Hartley [01:34:31] And I. I just think that that was one of those moments. And it's not that rare, I don't think. I don't think ex Mormons acting like 8th graders is that rare.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:39] Yeah, it's challenging when you're dealing with other people's sacred cows as well. Like, where. Where do you draw the line? Like, if someone wanted a coffee to get through filming night in the hot tub, would that have been seen as, you know, it's. It can be hard to know where to draw the line there.

John Dehlin [01:34:54] Like, the most common coffee Scenario I hear about in ex Mormonism is like having to hide the coffee.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:00] Hiding that.

John Dehlin [01:35:00] Yeah, more ex Mormons hide their coffee maker when their parents or in laws come visit.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:06] Even though they know they don't go to church anymore.

John Dehlin [01:35:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though they're known to be no longer in the church. Ex Mormons hide the coffee maker. That's. That's where I'm coming from. Brit, don't read. That's pretty standard.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:18] But that.

Brittney Hartley [01:35:18] Yeah, no, I get that. I get that. But, but it's. But that's like with your own parents versus this is like a hot tub. And so I think we're seeing like ex Mormon hot tub behavior. And if you know anything, if you

Samantha Shelley [01:35:30] know anything as well, like let's be

Brittney Hartley [01:35:33] honest about the ex Mormon community for a second that when we start meeting together to talk about our faith trauma and everybody's marriages are kind of, you know, getting a little rocky. People are trying alcohol for the first time in hot tubs. Like, there is an essence of that kind of ex Mormon high school hot tub behavior.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:35:52] That is.

Brittney Hartley [01:35:52] That is a thing. That is a thing.

John Dehlin [01:35:55] Well, Brett, I believe that happens when you're in a hot tub. That never happens when I'm in a hot tub. Tub. All right, let's talk really quickly about the scene where they're getting plastic surgery.

Aesthetics, Botox, and the Prosperity Gospel

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:07] Botox.

John Dehlin [01:36:08] They're getting Botox. I could. Is a 22 year old. Was it Leila?

Samantha Shelley [01:36:12] Oh, yeah. Did the 22 year old get it as well?

John Dehlin [01:36:14] Yeah, yeah. Like, like they're get. They're going to get Botox. And like, as a, as a secondary gain, they're super excited for the laughing

Samantha Shelley [01:36:23] gas, which is not normal. I've never heard of anyone getting laughing gas while getting Botox before.

John Dehlin [01:36:28] I hadn't either. But what, you know, I guess we did a whole episode on Mormons and plastic surgery. I was shocked to hear a 22 year old getting Botox. But like, how, how Mormon or disturbing or not was that whole scene about Botox and laughing?

Samantha Shelley [01:36:45] Yes, generally I feel like I watch a lot of dermatology TikTok people before they even people like under say like 28, just to be like generous with a cutoff point, like you're not forming dynamic wrinkles at that age. There's really like no need to do it. They're probably doing it with the mindset of like, we've got to be so prepared to never get a wrinkle five or ten years from now. It is excessive. Even within like, like communities that do get botox I feel like 22, 24 is like really extreme.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:37:17] It read to me like that was the reality TV exaggerated version of Whitney

Samantha Shelley [01:37:24] in that face mask as well. Like that doesn't happen at med spas. What was that like, where are you? Can I get one of those?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:37:31] But yeah, I did, I did feel like we've talked before about how it is so common for Mormons to, you know, have plastic surgery. And they emphasize that they were like, yeah, well, you know, we're not supposed to get tattoos or piercings, but they don't say anything about Botox or plastic surgery. So everybody has like boob jobs and lip filler and.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:37:49] Yeah. And I think like them doing it younger just kind of felt like it was just like twisting the knife a little bit of what is normal because it's a little bit extreme. But within like the range of something that's not shocking, you know, like I think people that are 28 will get Botox that is not surprising. Or get a breast augmentation. Maybe getting like three breast augmentations is and is surprising, but you know, like one is anyway. So I just feel like it's like a heightened sense but within. But Barry Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:38:18] Yeah, I, I just, I can't not mention the stat that we uncovered during our plastic surgery episode that Utah has more plastic surgeons per capita than Los Angeles and that the plastic surgery levels in Utah are something like three to four times the national average. Did I get that right?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:38:39] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:38:40] Yeah. Not to shame anyone, just to like say that appearance and perfectionism seems to really impact largely women's appearance and for some reason pressure for them to feel whether it's, you know. But the other thing I should mention is from our non scientific survey, most of the ex Mormon or Mormon women that have had the mommy makeovers, the tummy tucks, the breast augmentation, even the liposuction, or they say that, that they report high levels of satisfaction and self esteem improvement as a result. So like I'm gonna go with what, what they say because they have to

Samantha Shelley [01:39:23] live in a society that values, you know, female aesthetics so heavily. So yeah, you're gonna feel more comfortable or confident afterwards given that.

John Dehlin [01:39:34] Yeah.

Brittney Hartley [01:39:35] For this one, I feel like I almost want to separate what is, what is Mormonism here and what is just wealth. Because I live in Idaho, I live in Boise. Percentage wise, we're not that different. Salt Lake, as far as percentage of Mormons compared to percentage of Mormon, even though obviously Salt Lake's a lot bigger and we, we just don't have the hair extension life and the, it's, it's just not the same here. It's not any of that, to be honest. It's not that pressure. And so I do wonder how much of this is related to just Mormon wealth. And this is what women of all stripes do when you're talking about that level of wealth or whether this is more fueled by the Mormon side of having prophet saying put on a little lipstick and having doctrines of perfectionism and your only value as a Mormon woman being, you know, eternally sexually available.

Brittney Hartley [01:40:28] And so you need to look that way. Like certainly there are doctrines and, and things that are, that are essential to Mormonism that are driving this. But when you go to other places, even other places that have heavy amount of Mormon, you don't get it as bad as you do in Salt Lake. So I just wonder if maybe there's also a wealth element there because as soon as I drive from Boise to Salt Lake, I know when I'm in Salt Lake because what is it? Just every billboard is boob jobs and Botox, boob jobs and Botox, the whole strip down to Salt Lake as soon as I get into the valley. And it's just not that way even in other high area Mormons quite.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:41:07] I think it's definitely a combo between Mormon wealth and. Yeah, Mormons and wealth. Like I think both of those things are kind of going together for why this phenomenon is more so than in other wealthy areas in the country like la. Yeah, I think it's just you have is the perfect intersection of so much expectation on appearance and then just massive amounts of money. So I think those things go hand in hand sometimes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:34] Well, the Book of Mormon teaches pretty explicitly that the more faithful you are, the more you're going to be blessed with wealth. So yeah, so it is kind of

Samantha Shelley [01:41:46] beauty with the like, yeah. Countenance Mormon face.

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:50] Yeah. So it is not surprising that members of the church in Utah would want to show their wealth to other members of their congregation because it's a way to show their faithfulness.

Samantha Shelley [01:42:04] I think it's also normal when women are put kind of in these narrow roles and aren't don't have either like the time or the resources or like the belief that it's worth it to like pursue their creative passions or things like that. It's very easy to then just get like excessively self focused and especially if you're Mormon and like the way your internal landscape is supposed to be is kind of predetermined so you just like try and repress and like fit into that mold. Then like your external appearance so easily can just become like the thing you hyper focus on because that like, that's just something you can do, that's something you can focus on.

Samantha Shelley [01:42:43] And yeah, I mean, it's totally playing into like there's different flavors, there's different types of Mormons, you know, and like these girls are very much, I don't know, there's like sort of the, the. How do I say this? Like Dakota, for example, who like wanted to date the really hot girl who wasn't even in alignment with like what his standards were. But there is like a genre, I feel like, of members who are like men, patriarchal men who would just be like, okay, what's. I'm gonna get the hottest wife and I don't mind if she dresses immodestly and is like against the church kind of in that way, as long as it benefits me.

Samantha Shelley [01:43:19] But as long as it's not beyond that. I don't know, I think it can be like, it can be kind of sad the way that like all of these women, I feel like they put a ton of time and effort into their appearance and it's, it's like they go to these events and it feels like the bulk of the time they spend at them is like taking pictures or like maybe creating the illusion that they have this really fun and exciting life. But I feel like a lot of it is kind of like a, an aesthetic veneer. Maybe that's a harsh thing to say, I don't know. But I think it kind of goes

Alyssa Witbeck [01:43:52] back to what we talked about in the last plastic surgery episode also where these women are, you know, the. Everything that you were saying, Sam. And they're also having babies really young. They're having multiple babies, like really back to back. And that I think obviously changes your body also changes your body from people that are your same age in a different group, you know, so 22 year olds that are a mom of two children are going to have different bodies than a 22 year old who's single.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:17] And I remember when I was a woman wife and didn't even have children, like there was definitely this sense that like my youth had sort of been stolen from me in that. And so I wonder if there's something to be said for like, like women trying to like a 22 year old getting botox, like being so concerned with making sure we look young forever because like there's something going on in their psyche that's like, oh, and also like

Alyssa Witbeck [01:44:39] you're fulfilling these really adult roles. You're taking care of, you know, human beings at the breadwinner for a family at 22, 24. So you might just be like, yeah, but I need Botox now. Like, that's what women and mothers do.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:53] That's what being a woman is.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:44:55] That's like the identity of what it means to be a woman. So makes sense real quickly, Brit, I

John Dehlin [01:45:02] know the Prosperity Gospel was a topic you kind of wanted to cover since we just kind of made reference to it. Do you want to throw that in here? Do you want to wait till we get to a different part of the treatment?

Brittney Hartley [01:45:12] Yeah, no, we can do that now. I, I just think it's interesting because it is something that shows up in. In any religion because we're naturally superstitious as humans. We want our actions to earn us something. So this isn't. This isn't exclusively Mormon. It's not even exclusively Abrahamic religion. Buddhism can become very. If you go to a Buddhist country, it becomes very prosperity gospel. When I went to Thailand, you know, you make offerings to the Buddha so that your business does better.

Brittney Hartley [01:45:40] And so prosperity gospel just shows up everywhere because we're superstitious creatures that want to make offerings to the universe in some way so that we're going to be blessed. I mean, that's just. Just like innate human behavior that we're going to see everywhere. It's just really interesting in how it shows up with Mormonism because we have specific scriptures that really speak against and warn against wealth, not only in the New Testament, but even in the Book of Mormon. You know, you have King Benjamin, you have lots of scriptures that say, like, hey, beware. Like, be aware of when you're just caring about your appearance and your wealthy clothes and your costly buildings, like it's in our doctrine, like it's there.

Brittney Hartley [01:46:18] And it's really interesting that it's. It's essentially not highlighted at all in our manuals on the pulpit. I, I can't remember the last time that I heard a talk where someone was really calling us out on how we're just caring too much about our appearance and our wealth, and we should be giving our wealth away and we should cut down the cost of our temples, because that's what the Book of Mormon says that, you know, we. We don't need to have this be a burden on the people financially anyway. And so it's just really interesting that even though there is doctrine you can pull up in Mormonism that specifically, again, speaks against prosperity gospel, it does show up and, and essentially, as.

Brittney Hartley [01:47:03] As a culture and even our talks, it's more likely that you're going to hear talks about blessings where if you're righteous enough, God will take care of you financially. And you're much more willing to hear those messages. Even though we have doctrinal statements against that in scripture, we just essentially ignore them.

John Dehlin [01:47:23] Got it. Okay, well, let's. Let's turn to the Galentine's party. And in the Galentine's party, there was this. Or right around it, there was this moment where they're kind of self rating how much Mormon they are and then judging how Mormon some of the other women are. And I, I think as. I'm, as I'm remembering right, Demi rates herself as a 9 out of 10. And, and then Michaela makes the funny comment. Do you guys remember what Michaela says?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:48:01] She's like, if you're a 9 out of 10, I'm a 12 out of 10.

John Dehlin [01:48:05] Didn't someone else make a comment about her? Her? She basically said, I can see your nipple right now. So, like, I. Did you guys get what she was saying there? Like, I guess somehow. I guess somehow to me loses points

Samantha Shelley [01:48:20] because good Mormons wear padded bras.

John Dehlin [01:48:23] Okay, so she meant. She didn't mean literally her nipple. She meant, like, I'm assuming.

Samantha Shelley [01:48:28] Yeah, she'd freed the nipple, which God doesn't endorse.

John Dehlin [01:48:31] So she wasn't wearing a bra. Well, and that. So that she loses Mormon points for that, apparently. But then. But then Michaela rates herself as a 12. Is that right?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:48:43] Was that Macy?

John Dehlin [01:48:44] Was that Macy? Anyway, what is it? Is that even worth mentioning or did we kind of already cover that?

Samantha Shelley [01:48:49] Have you ever seen that? It's like a new age thing. I see where it will have, like, frequencies down the side, like 520Hz is the frequency of love. And it's basically just like quantifying how spiritually enlightened you are with these, like. Anyway, it just kind of reminds me of that. It's like if you're feeling fear or shame, then this is how unenlightened you are.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:49:09] Yeah, it's just like a funny thing too, that they are, like, trying to quantify this. And I think that's like a thing that we've been teasing so much, but just the idea that they have to like, yeah. Keep track of who's more Mormon. And they're like finding these specific things like, oh, you know, you're not wearing a bra, so you lose points. You had too much fun with your husband, so you lose points. Like it is.

John Dehlin [01:49:31] Yeah. You're not wearing your garments, so you lose points.

Brittney Hartley [01:49:33] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:49:34] It's like a funny ranking system.

John Dehlin [01:49:35] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:49:36] I mean, we love ranking each other.

John Dehlin [01:49:38] I don't think Mormons actually give each other or themselves numbers, but they're constantly.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:49:44] The day.

Brittney Hartley [01:49:44] The day bills. Do day bills master the number system?

John Dehlin [01:49:49] That's a dark joke.

Brittney Hartley [01:49:50] That's a great number system.

John Dehlin [01:49:52] You must live in Idaho. You must live in Idaho.

Brittney Hartley [01:49:55] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:49:57] And then immediately that rating discussion pivots into the discussion about Fruity Pebbles and Fruit Loops. Does someone want to recount that? And then just. I feel uncomfortable being the one kind of talking about that. So is it. Do we talk about Fruit Loops and Fruity Pebbles, or do we just skip it? Brit?

Brittney Hartley [01:50:17] Not it.

John Dehlin [01:50:19] Okay.

Ranking Mormonness and Sexuality on the Show

Alyssa Witbeck [01:50:19] All right. So basically what happens is they're. They're rating each other based on who's the most Mormon. And one of them, I camera was it Whitney, who's like, well, Demi, you know, she had that Fruity Pebbles thing, so she's less Mormon. And they, like, they're very excited about this memory. They're like, that was crazy. Apparently, Demi had told them some sex story with her husband that she'd done, and they'd. She'd been talking on the phone with her husband on speakerphone. The women had heard, and this was off camera, but she had told them. So anyway, this is what had happened. And then they, like, proceeded to role play what they. What the story was, which they never told us the actual story. They whispered it in each other's ears a couple times. And then Whitney start.

John Dehlin [01:51:06] Doesn't Whitney start to sit on another woman's face?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:51:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:51:10] Like, so.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:51:10] So they're acting out what. What food Pebbles is presumed to be.

John Dehlin [01:51:14] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:51:15] And they're getting ready for the Valentine's party. And they put it. The Fruity Pebbles as a gift that

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:20] they're gonna get Whitney.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:51:21] Whitney does.

John Dehlin [01:51:22] Wasn't that a mean girl move?

Samantha Shelley [01:51:24] I don't think she meant it to be mean. I think she was just tone deaf or just wasn't realizing that way.

Brittney Hartley [01:51:32] Yeah. Even if it wasn't mean, though, and she saw Demi's. Demi's reaction, then you would have said, I'm so sorry. Yeah, she didn't. She played victim. So then, you know, so then we can't even. If it was good intentions, because then you make it about you and your feelings, then you still don't look great.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:51:50] So basically what happened was Whitney was like, I'm going to give this, like, funny. Like, I'm going to allude to this sexual story you told us as this present. So she wraps up a bag of fruity pebbles, and then they. Michaela's like, I don't think Demi's gonna find it funny. Whitney's like, why not? It's like. It's like Galentine's it's supposed to be funny. But Demi had said that she wanted this party to be about feminine sensuality.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:13] I could sort of see Whitney's minds again. I'm not saying I would have done it, but I'm just saying as they were like, it's celebrating female sensuality. And she's like, oh, funny sex story from one of my friends. I'll do a callback. We still don't fully know the story of fruity Pebbles to this day.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:52:26] So then she opens it. Demise looks like it clearly upset and says, I'm upset.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:31] She laughed at first, though.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:52:32] I think I get, like, a shock laugh.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:34] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:52:34] And then she goes, mormons don't. I don't think Mormons do sexual actual gag jokes.

Brittney Hartley [01:52:38] I think they do a bachelorette.

John Dehlin [01:52:40] Do they?

Samantha Shelley [01:52:40] Yeah, they do.

John Dehlin [01:52:41] Okay.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:52:42] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:52:42] All right. All right. Well, again, I'm showing my age, probably.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:52:46] I mean, I think it's like. But it's always, like, within the context of, like, a bachelorette party or marriage. Like, I think the boundaries of, like, sexual gag jokes are very narrow.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:56] And she is a married woman. I don't think it makes her any less Mormon to do something.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:53:00] I think what made it what I thought made the joke, because I thought at first. Well, I watched it twice. When I first watched it, I was like. Like, I don't get it. She was just trying to, like, do this, like, funny joke. Like, they all talked about it. It's like, joint thing. But then thinking about it, and then Jim Demi was so upset. And to Britt's point as well, I think once you see that your friend is hurt, then you need to check in on why your friend is hurt. But then re Watching it, I think what struck me as strange about it was mostly the fact that Demi and her husband had had this conversation about keeping this particular event private. Demi had broken that contract by sharing it with her friends.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:38] I know it's kind of a bit. Is a boundary cross to have your husband on speaker and talking about an intimate sexual experience and not telling him that all of mum, everybody's there.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:53:47] So already it's like, now your friends know. And she was probably thinking, well, it's just my friends, which already it sounds like the husband was upset about. And then now it's on national TV and being scrutinized. And I do feel really bad about that because they'd explicitly said like, like, we wanted to keep this intimate sexual story between us. And then now it's like this huge scandal that now nobody want. Now everyone's trying to like parse out what it was exactly like. It just blew way out of proportion,

Samantha Shelley [01:54:11] I think, even though it's like unshame Mormons doing whatever they want in their marriages without it making them less Mormon.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:54:18] And Whitney talking about it and bringing it up is what brought it from mom talk secret to national talk television.

John Dehlin [01:54:26] Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean like a Mormon couples. Let's just call it oral sex being broadcasted globally. That's probably the first time that's ever happened in the history of Mormonism. Right? A faithful believing Mormon couple having their oral sex broadcasted globally. That is a. Pretty, as a. It's a pretty intense thing, especially knowing that the Mormon church literally outlawed oral sex. In the early 80s, the prophet Spencer Kimball sent a memo to all Mormons saying oral sex is forbidden. And strangely, the members revolted and the prophet had to rescind that. That ruling.

Brittney Hartley [01:55:09] Can we just thank our nasty Mormon parents for this being one of the times that I talked about where something goes off, off the pulpit and the culture says no. Our filthy Mormon parents. Yeah, so naughty.

John Dehlin [01:55:22] All the things that they're not going to.

Brittney Hartley [01:55:24] You guys said no. They. They said no.

John Dehlin [01:55:26] It's not equal rights. It's not the equal rights Amendment. It's not the. The ban on black people having.

Brittney Hartley [01:55:33] But if you take that.

John Dehlin [01:55:34] Don't take my oral sex away. Says 80s Mormon parrots.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:39] Anyway, you usually have to see about who's affected by those things. And usually if the white man, straight men are being affected by the rules.

Brittney Hartley [01:55:48] Yeah, yeah, that's so true because Layla's over here never having had an orgasm before, so it's probably. It's a more male heavy thing.

John Dehlin [01:55:58] I've never seen that prophetic memo that all Mormon women must have orgasms.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:56:02] No one's ever said that.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:05] Said no Mormon prophet ever. Anyway, this is also the moment where Whitney again emerges as problematic because so strangely, she's labeled as being trashy by giving that gift. And then it cuts to her talking, I believe, to her mom. And I. Forgive me for the swearing, but Whitney says to her faithful Mormon mom, what the. That is weird. What the. And I'm like, said no in my mind, said no Mormon woman to her mom ever. Yeah, right. But. But also so not Only is it weird that Whitney, who wants to be viewed as one of the faithful Mormons, is dropping F bombs in front of her faithful mom, but she's also, like, instead of being concerned about embarrassing and harming her friend, this is where Whitney really starts to turn it up to 11 and how she's somehow able to make every crisis about her her. Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:03] It seemed to me like. Well, it seems like she has a pretty fragile sense of self and is insecure. And then, like, suddenly having everyone. Like, I imagine she felt a lot of shame once she realized that Demi did not appreciate that gift. And then she, like, doesn't have a strong enough sense of self to then just be like, I'm so sorry. Yeah, national TV shouldn't have done, you know? Yeah. And it's again, highlighting the thing of, like, these are all women with multiple children, but, like, the emotional maturity is. Was, like, kind of iffy.

John Dehlin [01:57:31] Yeah. Okay. So then they cut to the baby blessing, and they basically contrast the sinners going bowling on a Sunday with the faithful with the saints going to the baby blessing.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:57:48] And I also just say that I love, like, the cinema choice of the producers being like, no, you need to go to, like, a dark and dingy bowling alley. Like, they couldn't go to, like, a light, an airy coffee shop. They needed the moody lighting of a bowling alley to then that was go back and forth between the bowling and the baby blessing. So fun.

John Dehlin [01:58:09] At least they didn't have them, like, going to a bar. Right. What were you gonna say?

Brittney Hartley [01:58:12] But still, the world looked that at that whole scenario and. And said, I'd rather be bowling with those girls.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:58:18] So fair enough.

John Dehlin [01:58:21] That's probably fair. But anyway, that was an interesting contrast. I. I will note that one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen in ex Mormonism as a result of ex Mormons being excluded from temple weddings and sometimes mothers being excluded from the temple wedding of their own daughters. Right. Which is the thing. If you're a. If you're a Mormon mom and you leave the church, but your daughter decides to get married in a Mormon temple, you're excluded. Same if you're a dad. Same if you're a sibling in law, whatever, you're excluded. One of the most beautiful things I've ever seen is this group, Waka women of a certain age, which is like a support group for ex Mormon, you know, 40 or above women.

John Dehlin [01:59:10] They started a ritual where whenever one of the Waka women has to attend, sort of has to show up on temple grounds as their family member. And all their other family members go inside to observe the temple wedding. Other women from the Walker group will show up with the excluded woman and sort of like have a little party on the temple grounds where they laugh and they talk or maybe they go get coffee just to help the excluded Mormon mom or excluded Mormon ex Mormon woman not feel so bad about the fact that the entire rest of the Mormon family is enjoying this special moment.

John Dehlin [01:59:55] And they're excluded literally, because they had integrity, owned up to their non belief, and. And as a result, were excluded from their own daughter's wedding.

Brittney Hartley [02:00:05] I. I hadn't heard that, John. That's. That's really beautiful and really Christ. Like, I love that.

John Dehlin [02:00:10] Yeah. I hope we. I hope we see more of that. Maybe the. You know, there's another. There's another support group along the Wasi front called Lost and Found Club or Faith Journey Meetups. If any of you were in that group, we celebrate that group as well. Y' all can implement that ritual as well. Anyway, any other thoughts about the contrasting between the baby blessing and the bowling alley? No, no.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:37] That was pretty interesting.

John Dehlin [02:00:39] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:00:39] The only other thing I'll say is just that it was interesting to see, like, Whitney bore her testimony before the baby blessing. Yeah, just like seeing some of that Mormon lingo on TV was just. It was just fun. I was like, oh, haven't seen this before.

John Dehlin [02:00:58] For me, Whitney's testimony at the baby blessing showcased Mormon hypocrisy because she's literally, in some ways, some of the. The most bad acting unchrist, like, acting member of the cast, and yet she kind of gets up and does the sanctimonious testimony bearing in a really solemn way, in a way that sort of represents sometimes, you know, gross religious hypocrisy, which isn't uniquely Mormon. But. And I don't mean to come too hard down on Whitney. Did y' all feel that or not?

Brittney Hartley [02:01:33] I think. I think it's why, you know, when. When Whitney gets mad that Taylor seems to be forgiven and people still like her, even though her life is seemingly chaotic and messy, it's because Taylor just says, like, my life is messy and I made some poor choices. And just that that human element of, like, you know, my life is chaotic and. And I make more choices than just admitting to that just makes you so likable as a human. And it's just something that for some reason, Whitney doesn't see that. She doesn't see that. It's not that. That your mistakes are so much worse than anybody else's mistakes.

Brittney Hartley [02:02:10] It's it's the sanctimonious. I'm going to put my testimony on top of it and not admit to any of my own accountability. Like, oh, there's just something that we. It's easy to recognize when you're kind of outside looking at it. We can recognize it in other religions, certainly, but it can be harder when you're in it to recognize, you know, your own hypocrisy.

John Dehlin [02:02:32] Yeah. And then does. Doesn't Jen say at the end that she's glad she didn't invite the other girls? Women? That was sad. Yeah. Okay. All right, so that's episode three. Episode four is this sort of girls getaway at Park City where they all decide to go to this super luxurious penthouse suite in Park City. And because this is where everyone's going to get real and they have this worst idea ever, which is. Was it the truth box? Is that what it was called?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:03:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:08] Yeah. Anybody want to talk about what happens with the truth box? Alyssa, do you want to recount that?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:03:13] Yeah. So we have the truth box box, which to me says it's her idea. It was probably a producer plant, but we. But chaos ensues nonetheless. And they say we're going to put in some anonymous questions and everybody has to answer and gets real in the juice box. Oh, wait, wait, wait. I have to say, right before the cheese box incident, Layla or not Layla, Jen said that she forgot her garments and someone is like, can we doordash garments? And I just thought that was funny.

John Dehlin [02:03:43] And then did y'. All. When they all got in the Jacuzzi, were they wearing one pieces? Like, one pieces are like the most Mormon thing ever. Like, Mormon women wear one pieces. Were they wearing one pieces? Do y' all happen to remember? I didn't pay super close attention.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:03:57] They were all wearing one pieces. The Jacuzzi or the exact parents house.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:05] No, not all of them were. Not all of them. And then there's another hot tub scene later, and they were in Vegas.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:04:11] Bikinis in that.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:12] Anyway, the world doesn't know that it is completely forbidden in 2024 for Mormon women to wear bikinis or two pieces.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:21] It's pretty, like, all over the map, though. Like, my bishop's wife would wear bikinis in England. We went to swimming at our state president's house, and everyone wore bikinis.

John Dehlin [02:04:29] I guess I should say maybe in Utah, in. In like Utah county young woman conservative circles.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:34] I feel like the type of. I don't know, there's. There's different flavors, but the. These girls, I Feel like a lot of that archetype will wear bikinis and it's not a big deal in Mormonism.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:04:43] Yeah, it was a big deal. I was in the group that was

Samantha Shelley [02:04:46] like one piece only.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:04:48] Yeah.

Brittney Hartley [02:04:49] I think at girls camp it's still, I think we still have the swimsuit conversations with girls camp specifically because then it's actually leadership that can say what's approved or not. And so we can watch that conversation. But when we're talking about girls at a pool with their girlfriends, especially young, I, I think Sam's right. I think that bikinis are totally normal in that context.

John Dehlin [02:05:13] All right, well, we can maybe we can agree to disagree a little bit about how prevalent that rule is. I, I think it's getting pretty severe. Like, I mean, even it's get to the point where like those girls camps up in Heber Valley, like you can't even wear shorts. You have in the heat of the summer at the Heber, you know, girls camps, they're making girls wear long pants in the summer because even shorts are starting. I think Mormonism in terms of like female clothes based modesty is getting more extreme than it was 10 years ago.

Brittney Hartley [02:05:51] I think, I think the girls camp thing, you're right about that, John. I think, I think for girls camp, that's a place where there's some like, obvious control measures that we can see. And we can see that even something like byu. We look at the beauty queens at BYU and they used to have like a sleeveless, you know, graduation gown in the 50s or whatever. So I, I see what you're saying, John, in that context where the church has some obvious control. But when you're talking about those same girls at girls camp who wore pants because they couldn't war wear shirts, and it's like really shamey. If you look at them at their friend's apartment complex pool together, even a group of Mormons, I think you'll see that they're not dressing like that except when they have to at. When in these areas where the church has a lot more control.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:06:41] All right, I will say this is just like a funny aside, but when I was in high school, somebody asked me on a date to a pool. As long as I wore one piece, I would not be invited on the date if I was to wear a two piece swimming suit. And I was like so embarrassed that he even thought I was a person that would even consider wearing a. Wow.

John Dehlin [02:07:07] I have to. I bolded this because it was so funny. So Layla, in the truth box, Layla gets asked which of Your friends, husbands would you sleep with? Her answer was Demi's husband, whose name is Brett. I think he's the one who's, like, in his 40s, right?

Brittney Hartley [02:07:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:25] Demi's, like, in her 20s or whatever, and Brett's in his 40s. And then Layla says, if y' all were together, do you remember what she said? She said I'd climb him like a tree.

Samantha Shelley [02:07:35] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:07:37] I love Layla.

John Dehlin [02:07:39] Okay. I also have this marked. Do you all feel like, at least through episode four, they're kind of treating Layla like a token? A little bit like the token person of color? Because I just feel like she's not involved in any of the core plots up through episode four. And then, of course, five, she has a little bit more of a feature. But I'm. I was just feeling like she's kind of ignored mostly for the first four episodes.

Samantha Shelley [02:08:06] I think it's because she was a later addition to the group because the show wanted.

John Dehlin [02:08:11] But others, just other white ones were, too, right?

Samantha Shelley [02:08:14] Yeah. But it. She. Layla had the tiniest social media following going into this.

John Dehlin [02:08:20] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:08:20] And I imagine because it's Provo, Utah, there's not, like, a ton of women of color choices for the show.

John Dehlin [02:08:27] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:08:27] Yeah. I did like how she talked about. I'm not. I can't remember the episode, but she talked about how it was hard to be black and member of the church.

John Dehlin [02:08:36] Yeah.

Brittney Hartley [02:08:37] But I hope she goes on Mormon stories and fleshes that all out.

John Dehlin [02:08:42] Wouldn't that be amazing?

Gerardo Sumano [02:08:44] She also was part, like, a big part in the story when Whitney didn't attend the baby shower. Because they went to the salt.

Brittney Hartley [02:08:53] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:08:53] Because I feel like they kind of used her in that to give her a scene because, like, no one else would want to have that talk with Whitney because they were just like, what are you doing? Just, like, say you don't want to go, at least.

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:03] Okay. And I think this is still part of the. The truth box, but there was this conversation where Demi. Demi says that Jen is too Mormon, that she brings up her Mormonism too much. And. And then also Demi says that is it Whitney is always talking about garments and byu. Well, yeah. I'm not sure who it is at this point, but there is this conversation about people bringing up Mormonism too much, and Demi says it's gaggy that Jen wears her Mormonism as a badge of honor. I don't know. Did y' all notice that?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:09:43] Yeah, I thought that was a really interesting moment, partially because, like, Jen is kind of using, at least for the sake of the show, at Least like. Like her portrayal in the show is using Mormonism as a badge of honor. She's like, kind of the one that we see. Like, we have, you know, Mormon is Jen, and Whitney is Jen, and Macy is as well, but Macy is less, like, controversial as a character, so she's. I don't think, like, when we do the. The interviews talking about Mormon doctrine, it's usually Jen, this is the one kind of, like, preaching that.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:10:16] And so it is kind of interesting, too, to see within the group, like, when they feel like it's. It's too much and not. And it was. Jen got really defensive of this. I mean, granted, everybody was being, like, cruel during the truth box, but this, to me, felt like the most gentle of. Of insults to give of the night. But she still. You could. She was like, so you don't want to be friends with me then because of that? Like, she felt, like, really hurt by that. So. Which, I mean, everyone was feeling her during the truth box. But, yeah, just kind of interesting

John Dehlin [02:10:50] when. When the fight started breaking out in the truth box, Margi noticed something that was really disturbing to her. She noticed that the. The more heated it got, the more that there was tension and acrimony between group members, the more Whitney started smiling. Did y' all notice that?

Samantha Shelley [02:11:09] I didn't, yeah. Oh, but she said in the confessional, I am loving it. Right?

John Dehlin [02:11:14] She said, I love the.

Samantha Shelley [02:11:15] Before it got to her.

John Dehlin [02:11:16] Right.

Samantha Shelley [02:11:16] Is that the point Maggie is making?

John Dehlin [02:11:18] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:18] Just because he was against Taylor, that's why.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:11:22] Right.

John Dehlin [02:11:23] Yeah. There was some schadenfreude there where Whitney was getting joy out of other people getting trashed. And that. That, I think that reveals something about Whitney.

Samantha Shelley [02:11:37] I need to re. Watch now that you said that.

John Dehlin [02:11:38] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:11:39] Yeah, I definitely noticed that too. It's hard to know. I guess they didn't look. Look close enough to see if the audio was, like, matching up or if they were, like, Frank inviting the smiling in.

Samantha Shelley [02:11:47] But, yeah, that easily.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:11:49] Could have been an editor, but that definitely was like.

Samantha Shelley [02:11:51] And it doesn't help that she's loving it.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:11:54] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:11:55] Like, I would have given her the benefit of the doubt of, like, maybe she smiles when she's a bit like when her nervous system regulated.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:12:01] But to.

Brittney Hartley [02:12:02] To be fair to Whitney, to give her some humanity in this, because it's hard sometimes to give her some huge humanity if you get roasted, like, absolutely destroyed on the Internet because you dance with your newborn child and. And you just get. I mean, she got obliterated. And I still see memes circulating, making fun of her for that than any time that it's human nature that, like, when you get Nash internationally, roasted, which, you know, our nervous systems really aren't prepared to handle, if the people around you make mistakes and they're getting some heat, it's. I mean, that's got to be totally human to just feel, like, a little bit of relief in that. And I don't know if she'd be that happy about it if she wasn't so roasted for that newborn dancing.

Samantha Shelley [02:12:54] Yeah, it had to have been so traumatizing getting hung in the town square for that dance because, I mean, it was tone deaf. And, you know, we can think what we want about it, but, like, at the end of the day, she wasn't, like, hurting anyone by doing that. It was just like a. A silly thing to do that, like,

Brittney Hartley [02:13:10] I'd never show my face, like, if I thought that that was a good choice and. And I probably wouldn't, but if I thought, this is a fun thing, I want to celebrate my baby getting better, and I do that. Like, the amount of heat that she took for that, I don't think that I have it in me to show my face again. So for her to be happy that other people are getting heat, like, we can at least say that that's. That's very human. And, like, we're not above having that response. Response.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:34] I did think it was, like, a semi impressive moment of vulnerability when Whitney, when someone said, are you jealous of Taylor? And she openly admitted, I'm jealous of the forgiveness. That seemed to come to her more easily because, again, just thinking about the fact that, like, Whitney didn't hurt her child by doing that dance, but, like, Taylor was arrested for, like, what, hurting a child by throwing a chair. And yeah, you know, there were, like, actual ways that Taylor hurt other people and, like, crossed ethical lines that, like, Whitney didn't really cross. Like, I. I thought that was brave of her to admit that in that moment.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:06] But then I felt like all the other girls were like, can you believe that? And then they also talked about how when she was like, on ketamine, she admitted that she did it for likes and views. And I'm like, again, vulnerable to admit. Good to recognize that in yourself. Glad that you did a psychedelic. And it kind of like, caused you to realize, like, whoa, I do a lot of the things. Things that I do for, like, the wrong reasons, you know, But I felt like they were just dragged her for it. And so I'm like, maybe I'm like, too much of a Whitney apologist. But I'm like, when she gives like a little crumb, I feel like it gets thrown back in her face, but I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:14:39] Yeah, I think, I think, I think Whitney has a reason to feel like she's being unfairly maligned. She did say the baby was getting better at the point she did the dance.

Samantha Shelley [02:14:50] Yeah. And I just. Brain had been so broken by the tick tock ification of everything. And she was just used to communicating with her audience through like dancing alongside text.

John Dehlin [02:14:59] Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:00] And it just like didn't serve her in that moment, but which is also

Alyssa Witbeck [02:15:03] interesting because like the big reveal that she was doing something for likes and clout, like that is what social media is.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:10] Yeah, duh.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:15:11] Like you're posting it so that somebody sees it, especially if you're an influencer. Like I thought I was kind of thinking that we're in a point like, communally where we all recognize like, like, yeah, you post on social media so

Samantha Shelley [02:15:21] people see it, you know, like when they're not.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:15:23] I'm trying to be better than everybody else by like pretending like we don't care.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:27] Yeah. Like being on the Bachelor for the wrong reasons.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:15:29] Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [02:15:31] Love is the least smart reason to be there.

John Dehlin [02:15:35] That's a good point. Really quickly, that ketamine thing was a really interesting thing to drop on Mormon stories. We had Stephanie Brinkerhoff on and she just told this amazing story story about how she was a depressed, super faithful Mormon mom who like tried therapy, she tried psychotherapy, psychiatry, and got so desperate that she tried mushrooms as a faithful believing Mormon mom. It's one of the most popular episodes of the past year or two. Check it out. It's fantastic. But like, over the past year or two, there almost are no ex Mormons who when they're telling their deconstruction journey, don't include some ayahuasca journey or a mushroom journey or an LSD journey, like.

Psychedelics, Meltdowns, and Taboo Topics

John Dehlin [02:16:20] And so in some ways I was really happy that a psychedelic experience got injected into this series because psychic and by the way, Mormon bishops, I recently found out about a Mormon stake president who took one of his bishops away from for a psychedelic journey as an actively serving Mormon stake president and actively serving Mormon bishop. So I don't know if psychedelics is becoming more pervasive than average in Utah Mormonism, but it's absolutely a thing both in and out of the Mormon Church. Now this isn't an endorsement of ketamine or mushrooms or lsd, but ketamine is

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:02] a, is a medical treatment now, right?

John Dehlin [02:17:04] It is, but it's also disputed in terms of its efficaciousness. It is sometimes abused and sometimes like with the Matthew Perry case, the guy from friends, like, yeah, it can be prescribed and still either be not efficacious or be abused or. But anyway, so not necessarily weighing in on this medical science of it all. And we didn't even mention mdma. Psychedelics is, is raging in both active and, and ex Mormonism.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:33] I guess where I was going, psychedelics is something you can't get from a doctor. But, but ketamine is mushrooms.

John Dehlin [02:17:41] You can't. And unless you're in an approved trial with, with psilocybin or lsd. Yeah, yeah, right.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:48] I've had Mormon friends do ketamine therapy.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:50] Oh, for sure. Oh yeah, yeah.

Brittney Hartley [02:17:52] My, my sense is like Mormon depression is at the root of this. That like really high depression rates. That's really well documented. And so then the Mormon, the active Mormons, I'm seeing more of the ketamine because you can go into a doctor's office, you don't feel like it's illegal. You feel like you can then answer word of wisdom questions when it comes to the temple and illegal drug use. And so I feel like active Mormons, I'm seeing a lot more do ketamine. And then I see in ex Mormon land, I, I essentially think it's a, it's a rite of passage. Like it's essentially a baptism into ex Mormons.

Brittney Hartley [02:18:28] Mormonism is to do some, some form of psychedelics, you know, break open your perspective, heal from your trauma, helps depression, all these other things. And so I think depression is at the root of this. And then it shows up with ketamine with active members, and then it shows up with more illegal psychedelics with ex Mormons.

John Dehlin [02:18:49] And a great reference is the book how to change your mind by Michael Pollan that does a really good job. And there's an accompanying, accompanying Netflix series, you know, for you to explore that stuff if you want to. So the, the retreat to Park City ends in mayhem with people screaming at each other and I mean, Whitney's sobbing, Taylor sobbing. The one point I wanted to make about all of this is there is a real problem with, with Mormons having dysfunction around healthy communication about talking about, about suppressing things, having the elephants in the room and just not being direct. But a lot of gossip, a lot of backbiting and just an. In a general inability to put up boundaries and, or have healthy communication. That's what I took as being Mormon or realistic about the Park City meltdown. Is there anything else you all wanted to mention? Just about the Mormon dynamics?

Brittney Hartley [02:19:53] Can I say one last thing? And then I'll have to head out, John. So this will be my last thing.

John Dehlin [02:19:57] Yeah.

Brittney Hartley [02:19:57] I see. I see these conversations as a couple things happening. I see the. I see the Mormon idea of contention is of the devil. So, like, that. That sense of tension, you can see it with Whitney, like, she just wants to get out of there, like, when. When her and Whitney are talking. And so you see.

Brittney Hartley [02:20:16] You see this idea that we have in Mormonism that when there's. When there's a fight, when there's cognitive dissonance, when there's. When there's tough conversations, that contention is of the devil. And so we do, like, shut that down. And that's very common with my Mormon clients when we're digging into things that they just don't even know how to then access their feelings anymore because they. We're just so used to shutting that down. And then there's a gossip thing because we're told not to gossip, but it's specifically for women. And we know with the history of Christianity that. That even talking about gossip in a Christian context was specifically because we didn't want women talking to each other.

Brittney Hartley [02:20:56] And that allowed men to do. Have more freedom to. To do whatever they wanted to do. And so that was very specific to women. And then I also see just like delayed adolescence.

Samantha Shelley [02:21:06] Right.

Brittney Hartley [02:21:07] So that they just seem a little bit emotionally young, maybe for their age, even though they're mothers. And so kind of the combination of that emotion, like, there's some insecurity going on and there's delayed adolescence, and then not. They'll sometimes say, like, therapy words, but they're not kind of doing it in the right context or the way that I think a therapist would help them with that concept. And then it just kind of devolves into watching eighth graders.

John Dehlin [02:21:38] Yeah. All right, Britt, well, we've loved having you for part two. Thanks so much for joining us. Please join us again. You're the best.

Brittney Hartley [02:21:47] My pleasure. Bye, guys. Thanks. Bye, Brit.

John Dehlin [02:21:51] Other. Other reactions about the meltdown.

Samantha Shelley [02:21:56] I mean, I think another element worth mentioning is just the way patriarchy pits women against each other and can create those kind of toxic friend environments. I would be surprised if that's not playing. You know, that's got to be playing into it, surely. Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:22:11] Especially because I can't remember if it was right here or later, but Whitney says something about how Taylor's really competitive or. Or at some point that, yeah, they're really Trying to like, distinguish who's on top and who's like the most powerful within the group, which I think, you know, that stems from the patriarchal source as well. And like, even just the way that we're watching these fights play out, I think, you know, it's easy for us too to like, jump into like sexist language, like, oh, they're being so catty, or you know, things like that. But I don't know, it's. It's hard to watch. I am continually impressed with Macy.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:22:43] I feel like she's someone who is like a really emotionally mature and is able to, to like what John was saying earlier, where some of the other women don't show on screen a very. Are, you know, very capable of having hard conversations. Like, Macy continually shows up and is loyal, but is also like, not going to sugarcoat anything and like, tells people how she feels about, like, has those discussions with why she doesn't like Dakota and things like that. So I feel like she's a good example of healthy communication here.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:15] It's sad to me how women like, have to. They seek refuge with each other because of patriarchy. But then it's like, because patriarchy is still so thoroughly installed in their brains, you're seeing it still come out in the ways that they're sort of like judging and it's also human nature as well. But, you know, just like the constant judging each other and projecting onto each other and like, because I feel like all of these women have like, probably a higher than ideal degree of shame inside of them. It's like, then very easy to like, judge and project onto your friends and like, you know, maybe when Whitney's saying that Taylor's super competitive, maybe that's just like her projecting onto her.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:55] Who knows? But yeah, I don't know. It's like it this. The show's interesting because it's like by the end I really was like, oh, there is something beautiful about this like, loyalty, friendship thing that they have going on. But then it's also sad that it like, like, isn't as functional as it could be just simply because, like, they haven't received like, basic education and like, communication and like health. You like, I don't know, it's challenging to have genuinely good mental health and appropriate like, differentiation individuation in Mormonism because, like, it's a high control group and they like, want you to be psychologically dependent on the group, AKA on the patriarchy. So none of them are very good at like, differentiation when it comes down to it.

John Dehlin [02:24:40] Love it. What? So just some of the interpersonal dynamics, you know, Whitney was asked to kind of say why she's mad at Taylor, and then Demi ends up going really hard at Whitney. And that's kind of how that kind of ends, is that Demi sort of takes on this role of just really going hard at Whitney, almost as if she's speaking for the group. And there's even this moment where it looks like it's like Taylor and Taylor and Whitney are vying for alpha female, but maybe it's gonna be Demi. Demi. You know what I mean? Like, that was interesting.

John Dehlin [02:25:16] And then Whitney's reaction, you know, to being so mercilessly attacked. And I. I do want to make one observation. I've watched enough reality tv, Survivor, particularly, that it's very common for producers to, like, tell a cast member, you're going to be the villain. So one thing we don't know is how much Whitney has sort of been told, you're going to be the villain. And so we're ascribing all this bad behavior to someone who might just be playing it all up because she's been told to play a role, because. Is that possible?

Samantha Shelley [02:25:47] Taylor and Whitney have been, like, hyping each other up in the Instagram post since the show's come out. Like, it doesn't seem like the feud is as it's a genuine. Yeah, I agree.

John Dehlin [02:25:57] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:25:57] But it seems like some members of the group do have actual. Like, it seems like Jesse really doesn't like Whitney to this day.

Gerardo Sumano [02:26:03] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:26:03] Yeah, that was something that they were. That a lot of women were debating on a podcast. I was listening to the Whitney wasn't There about whether or not Whitney was intentionally trying to play a villain role or not. Most of the women assumed that she was maybe, like, leaning into it now, but that, like, wasn't her intention and that she. Yeah, that she was, like, having a pretty emotionally difficult time with it. And this is, again, what they're saying. And maybe, you know, who knows? But, I mean, honestly, the person we're talking about the most is the villain. She's the one getting the most views. So if it's intentional, like, it's. It's a good idea.

John Dehlin [02:26:40] Yeah, they do it because it works. So just quickly going to episode five, I was pretty happy the Swig made an appearance. Do y' all have any. Do y' all want to explain Swig to. Or did they explain it sufficiently to the audience?

Samantha Shelley [02:26:56] Soda. What do you want us to explain?

John Dehlin [02:26:58] They called it Mormon Bar. Did you notice that?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:27:01] Called Mormon Vice at one point.

John Dehlin [02:27:03] Yeah, but it's like soda plus a bunch of other sweeteners, right? Yeah. Well, you were all jazzed about it before.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:09] I know. I got here late, so I couldn't bring a swig, but I want to go get it after so we can start. John talk.

John Dehlin [02:27:15] We need a better name.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:17] I just. You got one syllable name. I'm sorry. It's just the way it is.

John Dehlin [02:27:22] All right, so we're not gonna go. Go into Mormon. Mormon swig territory necessarily. All right, so any. Any other important parts of episode five that y' all think are worth mentioning?

Group Drama, Relationship Red Flags, and Season Wrap-Up

Alyssa Witbeck [02:27:40] I think we have to talk about how Whitney left the group group, Chad.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:43] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Avoidant queen.

John Dehlin [02:27:48] So she's mad that she keeps getting attacked.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:27:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:51] She what?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:27:52] And so she leaves and. Which. Okay, I thought.

Gerardo Sumano [02:27:57] Wasn't there, like, no reason she left. She just left.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:28:00] And she didn't announce someone leaving a group chat. I think that happens sometimes. You know, for example, this group chat has been popping off. Someone that was going to be a panelist was like. Like, I can't take all these messages about Mormon housewives, so I gotta leave. That's totally great.

Gerardo Sumano [02:28:14] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:28:15] You know, you explain why you're leaving the group, say you need some space, but just popping off, leaving without telling

Gerardo Sumano [02:28:20] anyone, and then being mad that people

Alyssa Witbeck [02:28:22] are asking about it.

Brittney Hartley [02:28:24] Oh, my God.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:25] Guys, I have more Whitney apologetics. As far as I remember. Someone tell me if I'm wrong. Before she left the group chat, they go to the. Was it Layla's divorce party? Was that. What was the event? Oh, she left the group chat before that.

Gerardo Sumano [02:28:41] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:28:41] Oh, so this she likes really early on, at least the way that it's.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:45] So she's. The way that it did the.

John Dehlin [02:28:47] There was Macy's birthday dinner, too. That happened after the Park City retreat.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:28:51] But before the Park City retreat was.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:53] Was the one where she's wearing, like, the black and white dress, she has a chat with Demi and then Demi's basically. Basically just like.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:29:02] That was at the. That was before the group chat. That was after. At least the way it's presented on screen right now.

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:08] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:08] Okay, well, then maybe my apologistics don't hold any water, but I could see, given that Whitney, like, I'm not saying what's right or wrong here. I'm just saying that given that Whitney felt very like, you know, left out to dry in Park City, felt like all of her friends collectively hated her, which, like, whether you're problematic or not, like, that's like a heroin experience to have Like, a group of friends of, like, mean girls turn on you, even if you're one of them.

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:31] But Macy was not. Macy was on her side. There was, like, two or three that were at least on her side.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:36] Taylor, as well, was, like, caring about

Alyssa Witbeck [02:29:37] her emotions in Toxicity, which I was impressed by Taylor.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:40] Me too. Well, that was the scene where I was like, okay, I actually really like her.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:29:44] I noticed. Oh, I'm so sorry to back up a tiny bit, but Demi was getting. She was getting really mad at Whitney in Park City.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:53] I didn't love that energy.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:29:54] I didn't.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:54] I felt like it was that thing of, like. Like, we found something problematic in you, so we're now allowed to be as mean as we want about it. And I, like, understand the frustrate, you know, it's all fine.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:30:03] It felt like she was, like, trying to be like, I'm empowering. I'm taking a stand. But instead, it just was mean.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:08] Yeah. Because it's like, if Whitney's problem. I don't know if. If you're. If you are her friends and if she's problematic, like, call her out more gently. I felt like Taylor was striking the right tone of, like, it sounds like you're really hurt. Like, let's talk about this.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:30:18] And she and Taylor said at one point, like, I understand that you're, like, maybe overreacting, but I know that I really hurt you. Yeah. I was like, taylor, are you, like, mothering your, like.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:29] Yeah. But anyway, I could see it being tough to say in the group chat, I'm leaving if you know that it's gonna then create a shitstorm of all these girls bitching about you. But.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:30:38] But they're gonna bitch about her anyway because it says on the thing Whitney Levitt has left the group.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:44] Yeah. I'm sure it was like a triggered moment where. Where she just, like, her feelings got way too big, and she was like. I just. I mean, she. It seems like she leans avoidant. Like, when she's, like, having feelings that are hard to manage, she moves to Hawaii or becomes a homesteader.

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:58] Not just avoidant, but I think she becomes avoidant because she won't accept responsibility for anything.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:31:03] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:31:04] And I. But I think she struggles to accept responsibility because she's so insecure and her sense of self is so weak that she, like, so easily doesn't feel like they even care. Like, again, I feel like there have been moments, like, where she's been taken in bad faith, where, to me, I'm like. I feel like her admitting that she was jealous of Taylor, like, that's a pretty. Like, that's brave to do. I don't know. I realize I'm in the minority with this. This Whitney tape.

John Dehlin [02:31:30] I think you want Whitney on Zelf on the shelf. That's what I think you're going for.

Samantha Shelley [02:31:33] Oh, don't tease Whitney. If you're watching, I'd love to redeem your image.

John Dehlin [02:31:39] Yeah, yeah. Whitney, call, call, call.

Samantha Shelley [02:31:42] I got you, girl.

John Dehlin [02:31:43] Samantha, she helps me. She'll help you.

Samantha Shelley [02:31:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:48] So did y' all notice at some point they go to Jen and Zach's house and. And. No, no, no. They go to Whitney at some point. Did you notice that? Was it Whitney who sweared and Connor corrects her. Did you notice that?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:32:04] Yeah, that was at Whitney's house.

Gerardo Sumano [02:32:06] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:32:07] And I also have to say that every single time they show Whitney's house, they have to show either the giant Jesus picture that they have in her. Yeah. They're kind of that same one or a different one or the temple.

Gerardo Sumano [02:32:19] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:32:19] Like, that is, like, their indicator of, like. Okay, we're gonna go to a Mormon scene now at Whitney's house. So, like, Mormon.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:26] I also love how her husband doesn't seem very good at, like, doing reality tv because, like, she's like. Everyone else is pretty good at, like, the acting component, but he just walks into the room and he's like, you'll never guess what I just. And she's just like, just interesting.

John Dehlin [02:32:42] Should we make anything of the fact that Whitney swears in of front of her faithful mom, but when she swears in front of Connor, who was on Tinder endlessly.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:32:50] I know.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:51] I'm like, if you had Tinder your whole marriage, let your woman swear. That's on her to police herself, not you.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:32:56] And she, like, apologizes. Like, she's like, I know I shouldn't swear.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:00] It might be because there's kids around in the defense.

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:03] Yeah. Maybe it's that because they zoom in on the kids.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:05] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:33:06] But I think it's also because Mormon women want their husbands to just sort of be righteous priesthood holders and to, like, show leadership? Because the husbands are supposed to preside in a Mormon home. Don't faithful Mormon wives want their husbands to step up and sort of make sure the home is extra Mormon or not spiritual bdsm.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:28] She likes to be put in her place by a man who she earns

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:31] more money until she be. They become like, Jen.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:33:35] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:36] Stuck in, like, a super unhealthy marriage.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:33:39] Yeah. I think, like, whether she wants it or not, that's kind of the. That's the expectation.

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:43] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:33:43] You know, so I don't think she's. Or most Mormon women are, like, put off by a man being like, hey, you know, don't do that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:53] All right, so where. Where else do we go to from here for. For the.

Gerardo Sumano [02:34:00] Taylor not wanting to get married, still saying that she's gonna push the boundary, even though she knows the church doesn't approve of it. But she says it's better to basically not get into a unhealthy marriage that's gonna end badly than rushing it, which I think I really appreciate.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:19] Yeah. I wish she would have had the same, like, seriousness with having a baby because she had, like, two failed pregnancies or whatever and, like, just didn't. She seemed like she wanted to have a baby with Dakota.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:34:31] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:31] And I've seen that even outside of. Of Mormonism with, like, some other reality show. I can't remember what. What one it was where it was like, they're having a baby, but marriage. Well, no, I don't want to get married just because I'm having a baby. And to me, I feel like having a baby is a way more serious thing. But I don't. I don't understand that, like, flip.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:34:49] For some people, it almost seems like. I don't know. And I. I'm not exactly sure, but, like, the way that this was presented right now, it seemed like Taylor was like, I know I can be a mom. I just don't know if I. And like. But Dakota, like, it kind of seemed like both of them in. Throughout the series, both meaning Dakota and also Zach make comments about, like, if we got divorced, like, you would be the one taking care of the kids, essentially. Like, Dakota doesn't know how to change a diaper. So it seems to me like Taylor is like, yeah, I know how to be a mom. But, like, you are kind of. I'm not. You're kind of not really a factor, you know, which I thought was really interesting. Like,

Brittney Hartley [02:35:29] oh, did Dakota say something?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:35:30] I can't remember if Dakota actually said something about that or if it was just Zach. But it was interesting, too, when Zach and Jen gave, like, Dakota, like, try to teach him how to do basics, like change diapers.

John Dehlin [02:35:43] And so he's, like, holding the baby, and then they playing the audio track of a baby screaming. And he's supposed to, like, put the powder to make the milk bottle while he's holding the baby. While the baby track is screaming.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:35:55] I was thinking. I was like, man, I really hope this is just for tv, because she is doing like, month. I really hope that you already know

Samantha Shelley [02:36:01] how to change a day. Men will be like, it's my dream to have seven kids. And they've like, never changed. So you have no business having an opinion yet.

John Dehlin [02:36:09] So in Mormonism, women are obviously like, my. My kids went to Utah high schools. When they did, like, family, like, family and human development class at like, Sky. Skyview, Sky View High School, they had to carry a baby around for like a full week. And I think that's like a punitive, A pre punitive sort of warning shot to young Mormon Utah women to say, don't have a baby.

Gerardo Sumano [02:36:38] They do it in Mexico, too.

John Dehlin [02:36:39] I don't think it's just.

Gerardo Sumano [02:36:40] I don't think that was just in the movies.

John Dehlin [02:36:43] No, no. My kids had to carry around a baby for a week.

Gerardo Sumano [02:36:46] Like a fake baby that like, cries and then they get a rating because the baby gets like. Like a kind of like, you know, like where the. You fit it or changed it. And then they get a grade.

Brittney Hartley [02:36:57] You get a school.

Samantha Shelley [02:36:58] School.

John Dehlin [02:36:59] Yeah. High school.

Brittney Hartley [02:37:00] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:37:00] Well, Michael, you know, it seems like somehow Mormon women, when they're young women or girls, learn how to change diapers and learn how to feed babies. Do young Mormon men or young boys ever learn how to change diapers or feed babies? Or is that really not on the agenda?

Samantha Shelley [02:37:18] It's probably family dependent because my partner Jared is like, second of nine and he said he changed a lot of diapers growing up. But I feel like some. In some families just the girls are taught to do that.

John Dehlin [02:37:29] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:37:30] And I think, like, in the community, like, I being in young women's, we did a lot of babysitting, of course, like, babysit the kids while the women from Luke Society went to the temple. Like, that happened all the time. And I think those opportunities are less. Less common for men, boys. So I think, yeah, it is family dependent. But then the structure, I think offers fewer activities to teach men and boys how to, like, take care of a kid.

John Dehlin [02:37:57] Did y' all notice the comment where Jen says about Zach, he's not a nice person if the house isn't clean. Wow. Did y' all notice that?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:38:07] Oh, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:08] He's not a nice person. I know.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:38:10] And what is. What was so striking about that too, is like, I mean, who knows? Maybe he's like, does great cleaning and he cleans everything. But, like, they didn't say, like, yeah, Zach cleans the house.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:22] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:38:22] Like, it was like, it was passive voice, you know, like, Zach isn't a nice person when the house isn't clean. Not he cleans the house.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:30] When he runs out of time to clean the house, he has a hard time with that.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:38:33] Right, Exactly. Like, we know that Jen is the breadwinner, and we. And they insinuated later on that she's one taking care of the kids. Because Zach said something about how, like, it would be hard worried about taking care of them if the kids, the parents were away or whatever, or if Jen was away. And then like, the house just gets clean. Like, they don't address it either way. And generally, if the man's cleaning it, he gets a lot of credit. And if it's just ambiguously clean, it tends to be the woman.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:57] So.

Brittney Hartley [02:38:58] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:59] And her. Just interesting that she's from a poor family and he's from a wealthy family and her mum of cleaning.

Brittney Hartley [02:39:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:39:07] I thought it was fascinating when, you know, Zach is trying to tell Dakota what it's like to be in a marriage. And he tells Dakota, hey, you know, if. If Taylor has a baby, once she has her baby, you can't be intimate for three to four months. And I thought there were two interesting things about that. One is it showed how Mormons can't say the word sex. So when a Mormon says be intimate,

Samantha Shelley [02:39:34] what they mean is no intimacy, no eye contact.

John Dehlin [02:39:38] Yeah, but he said, yeah, so Zach says, sorry, sorry, Dakota, you won't be able to be intimate for three to four months. And then Margi's like three to four months. That's like. I mean, one to two, like three to four.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:39:52] That's six weeks at six weeks.

John Dehlin [02:39:53] But I mean, I guess that's.

Samantha Shelley [02:39:55] That's.

John Dehlin [02:39:55] That shows what had Jen. What Jen's told Zach anyway.

Samantha Shelley [02:39:59] Maybe you can have, like, things happen.

John Dehlin [02:40:01] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:02] You know, I thought that maybe the vibes just simply aren't there when your husband is Zach.

John Dehlin [02:40:08] Yeah, that's true. All right, so there was the tattoo parlor scene. Is that interesting at all? Are faithful Mormons getting tattoos more and more these days? I guess it was taken out as a prohibition in the Strength of the Youth pamphlet.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:22] It.

John Dehlin [02:40:22] So I'm guessing tattoos are becoming more and more common in faithful Mormon.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:40:26] I don't know. I would love to know how. How much that is infiltrating.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:30] Like, actually, I heard from a woman friend recently that she was considering getting a tattoo.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:40:35] That's exciting.

John Dehlin [02:40:36] So, yeah, I'm guessing they're becoming more and more. Yeah, more and more common. All right, Other parts of. Okay, so when. When Dakota and Taylor show up to the. The. The filming shoot for Demi's product line, isn't Demi Doing. What's that?

Samantha Shelley [02:40:59] Baby mama. Are you talking about Macy's?

John Dehlin [02:41:02] Is that Macy?

Samantha Shelley [02:41:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:03] Okay. Sorry. I get them all. I do get them all confused.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:05] There's a degree to which they all kind of look alike.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:07] Definitely. I hate to say that Jesse and Demi, I can hardly ever tell them apart.

Brittney Hartley [02:41:14] Four episodes.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:14] Yeah.

Brittney Hartley [02:41:15] Before I see.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:15] I've watched the whole show like twice still like.

John Dehlin [02:41:19] Okay, okay. So it's Macy who's doing a product line of this. What?

Samantha Shelley [02:41:25] Baby Mama.

John Dehlin [02:41:26] Which is what?

Samantha Shelley [02:41:26] It's basically supplements for women.

John Dehlin [02:41:29] Which is so Mormon. Because Mormons are into supplements. Right.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:32] Yeah. It's very Courtney Kardashian of her as well, though.

John Dehlin [02:41:34] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:35] It's like trendy to do it.

John Dehlin [02:41:36] Okay. So Macy's got baby supplements, which is interesting.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:41] And she's.

John Dehlin [02:41:41] Go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:42] No, sorry, no. Well, she said she was inspired. The name came because she was. I can't remember if she was what the thing was, but basically she encountered a same sex couple that were having a baby through a surrogate. And she was like, oh, it's like your baby mama. That's so cute. And it's just interesting that, that whether or not that's a true origin story, she wanted to tell this even though she's one of the saints. Right. Macy, she wanted to tell the story on the show that. That like this same sex couple having a baby through a surrogate, which would not be okay by the LDS church leadership's opinions. That's what inspired her to name her business.

John Dehlin [02:42:15] And is that the first time any LGBT issue sort of has come up in. In episode five, they had that little

Alyssa Witbeck [02:42:22] joke with the truth box. Like, who would you go?

Samantha Shelley [02:42:25] Oh, yeah. So high school tended to kiss each other. Yeah. Who would you go lesbian for? Is like peak high school girl as friendship.

John Dehlin [02:42:33] Okay. But other than that.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:42:34] Other than that, it's kind of the

John Dehlin [02:42:35] first time the LGBT question is even.

Gerardo Sumano [02:42:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:38] Brought into it in. In episode five. Anyway, so. So Dakota and Taylor show up. She wants to do Macy. Right. Macy wants to do photos of Taylor with the product Baby Mama. And then weirdly, Dakota wants to take his shirt off.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:42:57] Iconic. Like, he's like, my shirt's so ugly. I'm just gonna take it off.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:01] Content king. He's like, let's get in there.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:43:03] Like, don't miss a beat. I am removing my face.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:06] He really wanted to have his show for it.

John Dehlin [02:43:10] Was that a little weird?

Samantha Shelley [02:43:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:13] Like, not only did he inserted himself,

Samantha Shelley [02:43:15] I do think it was about. Maybe I'm reaching, but I did feel like a bit of a moment of like, a man not really recognizing that, like. Like, as Macy had to explain, like, she is working. This is like a product photo shoot that she is doing. And he's just like, I'll just, like, get some free shots. I just, like, weasel my way in there. Like, he's not necessarily, like, respecting her time or like, business in that moment

Alyssa Witbeck [02:43:36] and getting partially nude in her place

Samantha Shelley [02:43:37] of business, which someone else was dragged for doing in front of Dakota, but then he does it in front of Maisie like it's nothing.

John Dehlin [02:43:44] Oh, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:45] Who was the one that got in when Taylor was like, you got in

Brittney Hartley [02:43:48] your bra in front of.

John Dehlin [02:43:49] Yeah, she came out in her bra.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:51] The double standard is there. Is what I was saying.

John Dehlin [02:43:53] He comes out fully unclosed.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:55] This top.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:56] He was braless. His nipples were fully

John Dehlin [02:44:01] interesting. All right, well, episode five ends with Leila. Finally, Layla gets a little bit of attention. It's a divorce party, which we just did an episode on Mormon Stories podcast on Healthy divorce, Happy divorce. We haven't released it yet. It's going to be really good. But we actually introduced the idea of a divorce announcement and a divorce celebration.

Samantha Shelley [02:44:24] I love that.

John Dehlin [02:44:25] Of. Of just like, let's drop. You know, too many wives of Mormon dentists are being killed. I mean, it's true. The stigma around divorce within Mormonism is way too serious. It's causing way too many people to stay in abusive marriages. Way too many people to stay in unhappy marriages. Let's lift the stigma. Let's celebrate people for whatever time they're able to stay together. I think that'll make divorces less acrimonious, less expensive if people don't feel like they have to blame the other person and. And battle over the, you know, the custody and make the other marriage partner look like a sexual predator so that you can get full custody.

John Dehlin [02:45:05] Like, it's a disaster on every, every level. This even came out with the Jody Hildebrandt, Ruby, Frankie, Kevin, Frankie stuff. It also came out with the Chad Daba, Lori Vala stuff. Like, we just gotta drop the stigma on divorce in Mormonism and even broader. But Mormonism takes it to an 11 because these marriages, or temple marriages are supposed to be eternal. And that just raises the stakes for everybody. Anyway, I loved seeing Layla host a divorce party. Hey, any thoughts on that? I guess you're agreeing, Samantha, you're kind of snapping, John.

Samantha Shelley [02:45:38] You know, I love divorce, so I was thrilled.

John Dehlin [02:45:40] Samantha's Protestant divorce.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:45:43] Yeah, it was great. And I think, like, the stakes are especially high for Layla because she's so young. She's what, 22? She's youngest. Right. And so the shame about being divorced already exists. And then the shame of getting divorced at 22 with two children is even higher. So it was just really great to see.

John Dehlin [02:46:00] Was that Layla's second divorce? I think a lot of the women

Alyssa Witbeck [02:46:04] have been divorced, but that was her first.

John Dehlin [02:46:06] Okay, any other comments on that party? Because that's kind of how episode five.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:46:10] One thing that.

Samantha Shelley [02:46:11] And.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:46:12] And this is nitpicky. Okay. But I was like. So earlier on in the episode, Layla had mentioned that she was like, yeah, I want to take things slow. I'm not, you know, looking to get into another relationship really quickly. And then at the divorce party, and I know it's just like girlfriends trying to have fun, but within Mormonism, we have such a hard time with single women. It makes us so uncomfortable. And so, like, at the Chippendale event, it made more sense. But here at her divorce party, where she's, like, embracing, like, not being attached to anybody, they're like, hey, there's this other guy. I want to set you up.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:46:47] And it just felt like. And again, maybe in this context, it's just playful girls trying to, like, be supportive. But I feel like for the larger, broader Mormon culture, like, when divorce is already stigmatized, and then when you do get divorced, you better get remarried as quickly as possible, especially if you have kids. Kids. Because you don't want that scarlet letter to stay on you any longer than it possibly has to.

John Dehlin [02:47:09] Yeah, well, I guess I lied because that wasn't the final scene of episode five. The final scene wasn't in Taylor and Dakota's home, where basically Taylor wants Macy to reconcile with Dakota. Right. And so Macy shows up.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:27] Oh. And they have the fight.

John Dehlin [02:47:28] Taylor's trying to stage an intervention between Dakota and Macy, and it goes really south and kind of sad. And it ends up with Taylor sobbing and Taylor and. And Dakota kind of getting in a fight. Did y' all notice anything about the dynamic between Dakota and Taylor when Taylor started sobbing?

Samantha Shelley [02:47:51] I have a lot of thoughts about their relationship. Like, it is really sad. Like, clearly, Taylor has a tight attachment. Trauma, attachment insecurity. She even says that that's something she's learned in therapy, is that she doesn't deserve the happy ending.

Samantha Shelley [02:48:04] But I feel like there's something between. You know how they say you're not supposed to. You know, when you're, like, doing AA or, like, you're in rehab, you're not supposed to, like, start a new relationship. Isn't that a thing, John?

Samantha Shelley [02:48:15] It is they both met each other in a very tenuous time. Like, she. Whether or not she's an addict, like, she had some substance abuse issues, because that's, like, what got her. Well, that's what got her. That's what made the swinging scandal hap. Not, like, made it happen like it's her fault, but, like, she was really intoxicated that night that she, like, crossed that boundary with someone else's husband and he was sober. And then, like, that fight she had with Dakota, she was really trashed. And then he's also recently in recovery. She's also just gone through, like, a crazy, like, public hanging in the town square situation.

Samantha Shelley [02:48:48] And then these two find each other. It's like, a little bit iffy of a foundation. And then I also feel like. It seems to me like she just. She, like, knows deep down that he's not like, her person, like her dream man. And she. And so she keeps referring to this situation that happened, like, around the time they weren't really official yet, which is,

Alyssa Witbeck [02:49:12] like, kind of a gray area.

Samantha Shelley [02:49:13] Like, I understand having feelings about it, but I do feel like, like, in an otherwise good relationship, you'd be able to let that go. So she obviously has, like, trust issues with him that go, like, deeper than just that. Because I feel like by the time you're pregnant with this baby, you know, it's not like if she had no reason to think he's cheated. Since they become official, anything was the lying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like she has some sense of, like, this man is not, like, it the way I wish a man would be, but I don't feel able to. To. I don't necessarily even believe that I could find better, which is what's sad about the whole thing.

Samantha Shelley [02:49:44] And I feel like he's constantly, like, sensing that in her. Like, he kind of knows he's punching, in a way with her or however you want to, like, describe that. And so it's kind of just like this fundamental thing that they don't seem like, ever able to reconcile.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:50:01] And he gets just continuously more and more angry.

John Dehlin [02:50:04] Yeah. The more she's sobbing.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:50:06] Yeah. And it just seems like as the series goes and like, and as the conversations go, like, he just is just so frustrated. And was it this one where she said that. I don't remember if it was this episode or a different one, but the same fight that they've had many times, and she's like, I just don't want to have to give. I don't want to give in to you.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:26] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:50:26] The fact that she. That phrase, she was like, I'm not ready to give in to him yet. And it's like, even the fact that you would characterize, like, choosing to commit to this man that you, like, kind of chose to have a baby with.

Brittney Hartley [02:50:36] With.

Samantha Shelley [02:50:36] Yeah. As giving in is, like, showing something about the culture.

John Dehlin [02:50:40] But, I mean, historically, Mormon wives covenant to submit to their husbands.

Samantha Shelley [02:50:47] Yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [02:50:48] And the proclamation on the family declares that the husband presides in the home.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:50:54] So perhaps, like, she's feeling subconsciously or consciously, like, regardless of him, her choosing him, like, she's able to have a little bit of power and a little bit more of that differentiation by not being his wife. And it's. It's really sad to kind of see that play out.

Samantha Shelley [02:51:10] And didn't we learn. I don't remember who said it, but by this point in the season, we know that they got in a fight. And, like, in the fight, he's, like, calling her, like, an effing whore. And again, that's just always a red flag. Yeah, always a red flag. When, like, first of all, you're the one who was apparently sleeping around when you guys started dating. She wasn't. But, like, when. That's the insult that you go to when you're in a fight about the fact that a woman doesn't want to commit to you.

John Dehlin [02:51:36] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:51:36] Red flags.

John Dehlin [02:51:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Dakota doesn't come off looking great at the end of episode five, and

Samantha Shelley [02:51:43] I'm sure Taylor has a sense that he will be more controlling once they're married.

John Dehlin [02:51:48] You're not a Dakota fan. No.

Samantha Shelley [02:51:49] No, me neither.

Gerardo Sumano [02:51:50] No, you kind of were.

John Dehlin [02:51:52] Yeah. After reading the comments, I take it all back. Dakota's worse than Whitney.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:00] And, yeah, isn't it funny? Like, Whitney's the villain of the season. I'm like, okay. At the end of the day, she's just, like, a problematic, messy. But, like, they were, like, actual abusive men on this show that are giving, like, violent potential.

John Dehlin [02:52:11] I mean, I think that if there really are villains right now, it's kind of for the man. It's Zach and Dakota.

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:17] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:17] And then anything Whitney's done, like, really does pale in comparison to that. Like, lest we forget. Like, I just don't want us to lose sight of that just because it's so easy to, like, hate the women. And obviously it's like, like, part of the fun, that there's, like, a lightness and a darkness to the show. But I'm like, these men are, like, the true villains.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:52:32] Like, the stakes of Their villain arcs are very different.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:34] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [02:52:36] That's important point.

Panel Verdicts on How Mormon the Show Really Is

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:38] All right.

John Dehlin [02:52:38] We love you, Whitney. You're welcome. On Mormon Stories podcast.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:41] Mormon Stories is officially pro. Whitney, you're gonna lose all your subscribers.

John Dehlin [02:52:45] This episode is brought to you by Whitney.

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:48] All right. All right.

John Dehlin [02:52:49] Well, I think we. I think we did it. I think we covered episodes three through five.

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:53] Yay.

John Dehlin [02:52:54] Which means. Means that our final treatment of. Other than having all of the. The secret lives of Mormon wives on Mormon Stories Podcast, individually and collectively as a group. We can all dream, right, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [02:53:09] And then just like random different configurations. Exactly. You gossip about the other.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:53:13] Next year is just going to be dedicated.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:15] Yes. Every week the discourse is going to be never ending on Roman Series podcast.

John Dehlin [02:53:21] Other than that, we have one more episode planned, which will be the grand finale. Episode six through eight, the Vegas trip, the Chippendales, the Zach meltdown with the text like, you have not seen anything yet. This is where it all unravels. Final words. We'll give each of you a chance to give a final summary. Gerardo, I'll give you a chance to go first. Any final words for today?

Gerardo Sumano [02:53:48] No, just. I mean, tune in for the next episode. I think the analysis was. Was pretty great.

John Dehlin [02:53:55] All right, Sammy.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:57] Yeah. I'm just so excited for episode three. John, it's so fun seeing you be, like, invested in reality tv. What a treat.

John Dehlin [02:54:04] I have a huge Margi and I love Survivor, believe it or not.

Samantha Shelley [02:54:07] I know you guys do.

John Dehlin [02:54:07] We've probably seen, like, 30 episodes of survival.

Samantha Shelley [02:54:10] This is like, a different flavor, you know, so it's fun to.

John Dehlin [02:54:13] I'm not a Bachelor Bachelorette fan. I have not enjoyed. What's the British one?

Samantha Shelley [02:54:17] The Love Island.

John Dehlin [02:54:18] Love Island. I. I mean, my. I probably would like Love Island.

Samantha Shelley [02:54:21] Yeah, that's. It's Love Island UK is so good.

John Dehlin [02:54:23] I do like Shark Tank. We have just started watching Shark Tank. Why are you laughing?

Samantha Shelley [02:54:29] Business boys.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:54:30] I compare Shark Tank to Love Island.

Samantha Shelley [02:54:32] Sean.

Brittney Hartley [02:54:33] Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:54:33] I didn't compare them. I just. They're both reality tv, aren't they? Kind of.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:54:37] That's the. That's the associations, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:54:39] Okay. All right. Thanks for putting me in my place a little bit. All right. You've not. Good. Okay. So, Alyssa.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:54:48] Yeah. Final thoughts are. The show is fantastic. We really hope season two comes out. We have.

John Dehlin [02:54:54] Oh, is there possibly a season two?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:54:56] That's the. That's the.

Samantha Shelley [02:54:58] There has to be. Sure. There has to come on.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:55:01] So there hasn't been signed yet, but that's why we need to make more content about this to try and promote this into a 10 season show.

John Dehlin [02:55:09] Okay.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:55:10] That Sam becomes a star in.

John Dehlin [02:55:11] Can the Mormon church weather it? Okay, really quickly, as of episode five, is this good for the Mormon church overall or bad for the Mormon Church? Alyssa, good or bad? One or two or neutral?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:55:22] Good.

John Dehlin [02:55:22] Better. Neutral. Good, because.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:55:26] As of episode five?

John Dehlin [02:55:27] Because.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:55:28] Good. Because I think we're seeing characters improving, we're seeing redemption, we're seeing atonement that they've mentioned a little bit, which is very good branding for Mormons where you're seeing cool, hot people identifying with the church. They're not weird. So decultifying it a little bit.

John Dehlin [02:55:47] What if there's some high level strategist who, like in the Mormon Church corporate headquarters that actually came up with this idea, pitched it to Hulu, and is actually behind it all?

Samantha Shelley [02:55:58] You sound like an ex woman that just tried weed for the fest.

John Dehlin [02:56:04] All right, so Alyssa says good as of now. As of episode five, Gerardo, good or bad for the morning? I agree.

Gerardo Sumano [02:56:12] It's good.

John Dehlin [02:56:13] Good for the church.

Gerardo Sumano [02:56:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:14] All right, Sammy, are you gonna go with the consensus or are you gonna diverge?

Samantha Shelley [02:56:18] I truly believe any coverage of the Mormon Church of any variety is a net negative for the church. The truth is gonna win out. I. I like the show. I think these are nice girls, but I'm not just like, ooh, cool. It doesn't make me think they're cool. These are sad moms at Chippendales. So I think it's a net negative and happy about it.

John Dehlin [02:56:37] I mean, because Sammy wants the church to burn. No, I'm just kidding.

Samantha Shelley [02:56:42] Yeah, I do.

John Dehlin [02:56:42] Okay. You know, I'll. I'll say something that makes me think you could be right. If you think about, like, Tyler Glenn, David Archuleta, Dan Reynolds, Mindy Gledhill, like, how many times now do we have to see these Mormon celebrities?

John Dehlin [02:56:59] Half of the people who are on the I'm a Mormon commercials, they all end up leaving the church. There's something about being a celebrity Mormon other than, like Steve Young, who we love on Mormon Stories podcast, along with his wife Barbara and maybe the Osmonds. Like, pretty much all Mormon celebrities these days, especially younger ones, end up leaving the church. So what happens when, you know, when these, you know, housewives start leaving the church, start reading the CES letter, start talking about their apostasy? Like Heather Gay. Right, Like Heather Gay. By, you know, she's publishing the book Bad Mormon. She's.

John Dehlin [02:57:41] She's talking about her loss of faith on these episodes. Certainly if there's a season two or Season three, the arc is going to be them talking about Joseph Smith, talking about polygamy, talking about leaving the church, talking about problems with patriarchy. Like, isn't that almost inevitable if there is a season two?

Samantha Shelley [02:57:58] I hope so. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:58:00] Yeah, that'd be awesome.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:58:01] That's a good point because that's something that they apparently recorded. I think I said this earlier. They recorded, like, all of their stories, some of which include some ex Mormon stuff. So if they get into the next season, maybe we would learn more about them as characters. Maybe in the next season we move away from mom talk and into them more as people. That would be the direction. I would hope I could see it

Samantha Shelley [02:58:20] splintering more for next season. Definitely.

John Dehlin [02:58:22] I. There's just no doubt that it's gonna go from like seven believing slash faithful Mormons down to like two or three.

Samantha Shelley [02:58:31] You really just think by virtue of them becoming famous, that's going to make them less Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:58:35] David Archuleta, Dan Reynolds, like, but David

Samantha Shelley [02:58:38] Archuleta was gay and had, like, a good incentive to deconstruct.

John Dehlin [02:58:42] Well, don't these women have gay family members and friends?

Samantha Shelley [02:58:46] No, you're right. But sometimes when, like, the trauma of fame can make you cling more tightly to your in groups. So I guess I just don't know.

John Dehlin [02:58:53] I don't know either for sure. But if past is prologue, I predict that several of them will not only leave the church, lose their faith in the church, but it'll become woven into the plot of future seasons. Like the fabulous Heather Gay of Real Housewives of Salt Lake.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:59:09] Maybe because they deconstruct the patriarchy of these relationships.

Samantha Shelley [02:59:12] Yeah. And I guess having a lot of, like, money and fame and opportunities does maybe make it that a. Like, you have reasons to want to distance yourself, but also that it's probably, like, liberating to realize, like, oh, I'm not financially bound. I'm not. You know, you just have a lot more, like, freedom to move, I feel like. Yeah, if you have a number one show on Hulu, maybe.

John Dehlin [02:59:33] All right, well, that's a cliffhanger. Thank you, Alyssa, for joining us today. It's great to have you.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:59:38] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:59:39] Thanks, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [02:59:40] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:59:40] Check out Zelf on the Shelf. Subscribe to Zelf on the Shelf.

Samantha Shelley [02:59:43] Subscribe to Zelf on the Shelf. We just celebrated Russell M. Nelson's 100 birthday. He is a Pisces king. Come join us for this week's video.

John Dehlin [02:59:51] Subscribe to Mormon Stories as well. Alyssa, how do people follow you?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:59:54] Follow me on Tick Tock at list likes words. Check out my writing on my website. Alyssa Witbeck dot com.

John Dehlin [02:59:59] Okay.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:00:00] Instagram, listen.

John Dehlin [03:00:01] And Gerardo, how do people follow you?

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:06] My social medias are private, but so

Samantha Shelley [03:00:08] send him good vibes from wherever you are. He'll fill them.

John Dehlin [03:00:11] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:00:12] Good.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:13] Follow Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [03:00:14] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:14] Subscribe. Yeah. Go to MormonStories.org and click on the donate button.

John Dehlin [03:00:19] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:00:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:20] Gerardo helped renovate our website if y' all want to check that out. Along with my friend Dave and other people. Like new new fully functional website. A lot of cool features. Couldn't do without you. Let me quickly read a one super chat that came in. We were low on super chats this episode episode. But Cassie writes, I am grateful. I began my low key obsession with Mormon stories about a year ago and had all the context I needed for Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. As an Australian in Australia, never Mormon, who has never met a Mormon in real life. The show is fascinating. Honestly, Cassie doesn't need anything other than Mormon stories and Secret Lives of Mormon Wives to understand the Mormon church. Am I wrong?

Audience Questions and Closing Thanks

Alyssa Witbeck [03:01:07] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:07] Or any other type of media.

John Dehlin [03:01:13] Cassie, you're. You're tuning in all the most important stuff. Mormon stories, podcast, Secret Lives. You're good.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:17] Yeah, I just think we're touching on every aspect of the human condition through this secret lives discourse.

John Dehlin [03:01:22] Well, that's why half over half of our audience has never been Mormon. People are connecting. I say the. The Mormon story is the human story. Am I reaching?

Samantha Shelley [03:01:31] No. That's so true, John.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:01:32] The Secret Life of Mormon Wives is also the human story.

John Dehlin [03:01:38] Yeah. All right. Anyway, thank you, Cassie for that super chat. We always welcome your super chats. We want to thank those of you who donate to Mormon Stories podcast to make it possible. We also want to ask if you value this content and want to see it continue. We have monthly donors that Cancel Every month, 10 to 20 of them. And if we don't replace them, then we have to start cutting panelists, cutting services, cutting programming.

John Dehlin [03:02:04] So if you value this content, if you want to see continue, if you want to see us do a third episode and to cover future series of reality TV on Mormonism or the other good stuff we do, please go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button, become a monthly donor and we'll do this for as long as we can.

John Dehlin [03:02:24] Also, again, support yourself on the shelf. Check out no nonsense spirituality. Buy Brits book. Go to her for Coaching Sammy also does Coaching Sammy. What's your website for coaching smartshellycoaching.com and list what's your coaching website. I'm just kidding.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:02:39] I would love to. DM me and we can gossip. You know, I can help you. Exactly. Yeah. Peer to peer. It's important.

John Dehlin [03:02:46] And Gerardo, what's your coaching website?

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:47] And I'm not a coach.

Samantha Shelley [03:02:49] You guys need to get your acts together.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:02:51] Yeah, seriously.

John Dehlin [03:02:51] Can you be an ex Mormon content creator and not be a coach?

Samantha Shelley [03:02:54] You shouldn't.

Brittney Hartley [03:02:55] So it's not right?

John Dehlin [03:02:56] You don't recommend it. All right. Anyway, thanks for all your support. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Check out Real. I always. Forget it. What is it? Real Secret Lives of Mormon Wives on Hulu. Share this episode with as many people as you can. Thanks to Julia and Maven and Brooklyn for all they do behind the scenes in post production. Along with Gerardo, all our co hosts. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.