Welcome and Introducing Chase McWhorter

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is March 16, 2026. I'm here with Sammy or Samantha from Zelf on the Shelf. Hey, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:13] Hello, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:13] Thanks for joining.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:14] Yeah, I'm pumped.

John Dehlin [00:00:15] On a scale of 0 to 10, how excited are you for today, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [00:00:19] I am actually out of 10.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] And for Brit, that's a lot, right?

Samantha Shelley [00:00:22] Yeah. Which is. That's Max Sight dangerous. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:27] Well, today we are super excited because it is Secret Lies of Mormon Wives season, season four just recently dropped and this is the first time I've had an actual member of the cast. I don't know if Chase, you're officially considered a member of the cast.

Chase McWhorter [00:00:46] Background dancer.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:47] What?

Chase McWhorter [00:00:47] I'm just a background dancer. That's my part.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] But yeah, the Chase is here from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. And we've tried to cover each season a little bit on Mormon Stories podcast.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:01] Not extensively, just like a few six hour episodes each time.

John Dehlin [00:01:05] Yeah. Sometimes we'll record more hours than actually are released in a given season, but hopefully we won't be that obnoxious today. But of course, this show, Secret Lies of Mormon Wives is not just one of the biggest things in Mormonism. Is it the most streamed show ever on Hulu?

Chase McWhorter [00:01:25] It's number one on Hulu right now. I think it's like three on Disney plus. And the girls every single season produce at a level that I think is, is really cool. And I think that's like, I think every season sit number one on Hulu. So it's hard to argue with what them and the production team are able to put together. So it's. Yeah, it's a big deal. You know, it's cool.

John Dehlin [00:01:43] And Taylor is, you know, is she premiering his the Bachelorette already started?

Chase McWhorter [00:01:48] I think that's, I think it's March 22nd.

John Dehlin [00:01:50] So the Bachelorette's about to drop.

Chase McWhorter [00:01:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] Whitney and Jen were just recently on Dancing with the Stars. Like, Mormons are taking over the world.

Chase McWhorter [00:01:57] They really are. Miranda, stay tuned. She's stuff coming up that I'm really stoked about for her. It's. It's crazy. The girls are going places. They really are.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] That's super fun. So Chase, before we dive into your story, how are you known on Secret Lies of Mormon Wives? Like, do you play a role? Are there certain plot lines that you're most known for? Just to kind of give people a sense for kind of how you're known on the show before we dive into your Background?

Chase's Background and Connection to the Show

Chase McWhorter [00:02:24] Yeah, no, I think, I mean people that followed it, I was, me and Miranda were married. We were Taylor's really good friend prior to the whole swinging scandal, her and her ex husband. So when that happened we kind of distanced ourselves from her, which, you know, people had a lot of opinions about, rightfully so. And then, yeah, we got divorced and I've been, you know, co parents with her ever since. And we've, we've done that cordially. So I guess, you know, I, I also have notoriously made some poor decisions that you know, people have seen in the last couple years. So I think that there's a little bit of a, he's an idiot, but he's also been around with, you know, the affiliation with Taylor from the beginning.

John Dehlin [00:03:06] And did you, you dated Taylor at least at one point, right?

Chase McWhorter [00:03:09] No. I mean, no, we never dated. Like there's a lot of speculation as to how that went down, but we were always just friends. And then, yeah, the swinger thing happened, swinger gate or whatever. And me and Miranda kind of took a step back and so I've, I've been, I mean, friends with Taylor for a long time and then now, you know, a lot of the girls, I, I, you know, friends with Layla, who I kind of hung out with and my brother dated. So there's a lot of tie ins to, I guess the girls on that. And then mostly just Miranda's co parent people sometimes joke around and say, you know, Mr. Miranda, which I'm honored by and totally cool with. So that's kind of it. I would say.

John Dehlin [00:03:48] Okay, very cool. And, and you said like we're not going to be going deep into the swingy stuff. But you did say you're okay at least talking a little bit about that?

Chase McWhorter [00:03:58] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:03:59] Cool. Well, cool. Well, let's, let's go back then and just do a classic traditional Mormon story. Is that all right, let's do it. Okay. So were your parents born in the covenant or were they converts to the Mormon church?

Growing Up Mormon in Rexburg, Idaho

Chase McWhorter [00:04:11] My mom was born in the church. My dad, really cool story actually. He had basically a single mom in Texas, not a lot of money, and she got, she, the elders knocked on her door and I think the way they tell the story is that she like was smoking a cigarette, like basically blew smoke in their face and was not interested. But they end up converting her and the rest of the family. My dad had like, I think eight siblings. I think there's eight total actually. So seven. And then he went on to go to byu, go on a mission and, yeah. Extremely orthodox member of the church to this day.

John Dehlin [00:04:47] Your dad?

Chase McWhorter [00:04:47] Yeah, my dad.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:48] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [00:04:48] And so my mom and him got married in the temple, raised us all in the church. So which temple?

John Dehlin [00:04:53] Do you know which temple they got.

Chase McWhorter [00:04:54] They got married in? I want to say Idaho Falls.

John Dehlin [00:04:58] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [00:04:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:59] Okay. Okay. So by the time, how many siblings do you have?

Chase McWhorter [00:05:03] So I'm the oldest of four. I have three siblings.

John Dehlin [00:05:06] Okay, you were born what year?

Chase McWhorter [00:05:07] 95.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] 95. Okay. So you're born in 95, the oldest of four. Your parents are temple married.

Chase McWhorter [00:05:15] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:05:16] So what was your Mormon childhood like? And. And Samantha. I'll jump in any. Any point.

Chase McWhorter [00:05:21] Totally. Yeah. I mean, I think pretty. Pretty standard in Rexburg. I mean, my dad was a pediatric dentist, so by the time I was in high school, like to think that I grew up in pretty affluent, you know, neighborhood.

John Dehlin [00:05:33] Tell people what Rexburg is like.

Chase McWhorter [00:05:35] Rexburg is.

John Dehlin [00:05:35] I call it Mormon. Saudi Arabia, which is probably offensive.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:38] Freezing.

Chase McWhorter [00:05:39] Provo had 50,000 people.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] I like.

Chase McWhorter [00:05:42] It's kind of how I describe it.

John Dehlin [00:05:43] It's worse, isn't it? The most.

Chase McWhorter [00:05:44] It's way worse.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] It is like, per capita, the most. Oh, yeah, Sammy, you win.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:48] Three and a half years I lived there.

Chase McWhorter [00:05:49] Oh, you did? Oh, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:51] So is it, like, considered the most conservative orthodox population per capita in the world for Mormons?

Chase McWhorter [00:05:58] Yeah. Yeah. Actually, did it feel that way? It does, absolutely. Everyone's, for the most part, you know, LDS, conservative, not a ton of diversity, Obviously. BYU Idaho is an interesting university where there's rules that I don't even think apply to BYU Provo. So, yeah, it was. I mean, I actually think having grown up there, I remember, like, my high school memories are fond, and I had good friends, but I also just. That's all I knew. But yeah, it's. It's an interesting place. It's a tiny little town and there's not a lot of variance in thought or belief.

John Dehlin [00:06:32] And so your dad was a pediatric dentist, and like you said, that means he was affluent. Was your mom a stay at home mom?

Chase McWhorter [00:06:38] She was, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] Okay. And y' all would have lived in the. If there's a fancier part of town in Rexburg, you would have lived there, right?

Chase McWhorter [00:06:44] Yeah, in Rexburg, we kind of had a. In one of the neighborhoods where. Yeah, I would say definitely more on the. On the. On the affluent side. And we had great neighbors, great people that I'm still friends with.

John Dehlin [00:06:53] So did your family do the traditional scripture study, prayer, family home, evening, three hours of church on Sunday? No. No. Our movies, no swearing. All that kind of stuff.

Chase McWhorter [00:07:03] We did most of that church on Sundays, attempted to do family home evenings. I mean, scripture study, not so much, but like prayer at night with the family. We followed most of the rules. I think my parents, you know, they had a. They had a marriage that they. They were. Was kind of difficult for them to navigate throughout. I think most of it. And they recently, a couple years ago, got divorced.

John Dehlin [00:07:25] But that would have been after what, 20 plus years?

Chase McWhorter [00:07:27] 30.

John Dehlin [00:07:28] 30 years, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [00:07:29] And so I think we did. Yeah, we followed most of that. I went to church on Sundays. I went to Mutual on Tuesdays. You know, knew that I was going to go on a mission because my dad did and all my uncles and some of my older cousins on my dad's side. So, yeah, I think it was pretty standard. Pretty standard upbringing in the church. And for the most part, I remember never. I never really considered even any other school of thought or like, lifestyle, just because that's how everyone lived in Rexburg in my circle.

John Dehlin [00:07:56] I always ask people if they remember their favorite primary songs. Did you have any favorite primary songs?

Chase McWhorter [00:08:00] Oh, the one where it's like, it's. Mine is a Home. Like, there's like the guy part and

John Dehlin [00:08:08] the guy Love Us who can hear.

Chase McWhorter [00:08:09] Yeah, that one's a banger. I like that one because it's.

John Dehlin [00:08:12] I see my mother.

Chase McWhorter [00:08:14] Yeah, that's a good one. I just like the melody in that. It's. It's kind of good.

John Dehlin [00:08:17] Was the. Was the eternal family message sort of very important to you?

Chase McWhorter [00:08:21] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember just thinking, of course, like, this is. That obviously makes sense that this is the goal because, you know, who wouldn't want to be with their family forever? So, yeah, that was definitely at the core of our, I think, our whole family's belief as a child.

John Dehlin [00:08:35] Did you feel tension between your parents, even pre high school, pre middle school kind of thing?

Chase McWhorter [00:08:42] Yeah, I think so. I think I. Especially in high school, but before. So, yeah, I think just, you know, knowing they weren't like a couple that was. There wasn't like PDA or like a whole. Even a whole lot of a. You didn't feel like they were super into each other. And that's not like trying to discredit them at all because I think they tried to make that work a lot. I know they went to extensive, like, couples therapy and stuff, but yeah, they just weren't. I think they grew apart and I think that the kids kept them together. But that's why as soon as the kids were out of the house. The. Was the end of that. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:15] Did they have like the traditional. Did your dad get called into the bishopric or was he young men's leader? Was your mom relief study president or primary president or young women's president, those sorts of colleagues?

Chase McWhorter [00:09:24] Yeah, my mom spent time as the. In the Relief Society. I don't want to misspeak, so I don't really know to which magnitude or what her degree or calling was. My dad was in the, like, was one of the counselors. He spent time as a bishop in one of the BYU Idaho wards.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] So your dad is a former Mormon bishop?

Chase McWhorter [00:09:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] And he was in a bishopric?

Chase McWhorter [00:09:42] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] That shows a level of significant devotion.

Chase McWhorter [00:09:46] Totally, totally. And he still serves. I don't even know what his calling is now, but he's an active temple attendance. You know, my mom, I think, still goes, so, yeah, very, very devoted.

Navigating Faith, Guilt, and Sexuality in High School

John Dehlin [00:09:59] Okay, so any big traumatic things happen as a part of your Mormon story? Let's say pre middle school, pre high school, or was it just kind of a bucolic, Idyl Rexburg Mormon upbringing?

Chase McWhorter [00:10:13] It was the latter. For most of my upbringing, I never even had a semblance of doubt with what, you know, what the lifestyle was with going to church and the path that was kind of laid out. Honestly, my first, I guess, rude awakening or introduction to another school of thought that, you know, maybe outside of Mormonism there might be a way or a path in life was on my mission. So I.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] Okay, before we get there, a couple more questions. Totally, totally. So in the, in the middle school, high school years, you know, the standards of behavior for Mormons are a pretty big deal. So whether it's word of wisdom, no alcohol, no tobacco, no drugs, no coffee, no tea.

Samantha Shelley [00:10:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] Or with, with love, chastity, no sex. No nothing close to sex. Only kissing, no masturbation, no porn. Did any of those things feature prominently in your adolescence?

Chase McWhorter [00:11:10] Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like, I, I. The word of wisdom never even was an issue. I never even, I never went to parties with any of it. I just never, it was never around. I think I figured out, like, I identified for the first time the smell of alcohol on my mission. But before, so before in my high school, it was always like, run into the law of chastity. I had a girlfriend my junior year. I had a girlfriend my senior year. And yeah, like the whole, the pornography thing, obviously I went to the priesthood sessions with my dad when Boyd K. Packer would talk about, you know, kind of the talk about pornography in a way that made you feel like if that was something that you were actively participating in. You were in a bad spot. And so all of that, I remember there was a lot of. I remember having a pretty. Pretty big guilt complex. I think around that, because I was like, man, I'm not really anywhere near perfect in this regard. And I feel like that's maybe what's holding me back. And to my dad's like, my dad's a great person. I think that he was obviously raised without a dad, so I think that he kind of was running, you know, attacking the. The dad approach, you know, without any example. But I remember him saying, even in sports, like, if you weren't. I played sports a lot growing up, and if you weren't playing well, I remember him being like, well, are you living right? Because if you're not living right, like, that's not going to translate well. So then every time I had a bad game, I was like, well, I can point to, like, all the reasons why I'm probably not playing well. And I feel like that was a pretty big hindrance on confidence because obviously you're never going to be, like, perfect. And it's pretty easy to look back and realize that maybe you've done some things wrong. And then it's. That becomes the scapegoat for why you played bad instead of maybe, like, lack of practice or lack of repetition. So I remember that, you know, and that kind of put that all together way later on in life and being like, oh, why did I think that, like, me having a bad game in basketball had anything to do with maybe hooking up with my girlfriend? And not even hooking up really, like, doing some of the things that are, like, you know, Mormon coded when it comes to hooking up and then blaming myself for bad sports performances in high school.

John Dehlin [00:13:14] So just kind of making out kind of stuff.

Chase McWhorter [00:13:16] Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, making out. I mean, I guess the term in church and whatever, like, touching, heavy petting. Is that what they say?

John Dehlin [00:13:24] Yeah, yeah.

Chase McWhorter [00:13:25] Which. The term alone makes me want to never do that again. But, yeah, totally. That was kind of where I was like, man, I felt a lot of guilt. And I had to go to my bishop a number of times. Different bishops who had different reactions.

John Dehlin [00:13:38] To do what? Why?

Chase McWhorter [00:13:39] Just to tell them, like, hey, I want to get clean so that I can be the best version of myself. I did XYZ with my girlfriend or this girl. And yeah, having two different bishops, different people that had different reactions to some of those things. And it wasn't ever sex. It was second base, third base. You know that stuff, but feeling like I had to do that because I wanted to go on a mission, first of all. And also I wanted to get blessings or whatever it was. And in order to do that, I needed to be clean or whatever. So, yeah, I totally had a complex with that. I remember being like, this is a lot. I, more often than not felt like I was really, really guilty. And that's not a great feeling. And I think that is a hindrance to confidence. So I think that that's something that I relate with on a personal level.

John Dehlin [00:14:29] Were you ever told by the bishop, you can't take the sacrament or you can't pass the sacrament, any, like, punishments that would feel shaming?

Chase McWhorter [00:14:37] Totally. Yeah. There was a couple times where I was like, all right, we're going to work through this. And in an encouraging sense, but, like, we're going to work through this, but we're going to make sure you don't take the sacrament for a while. And we're going to, you know, whatever it is, maybe we meet up again in a couple of weeks and see how you're doing and go from there. So, yeah, like, the note sacrament thing happened a couple times to me.

John Dehlin [00:14:57] When you look back, there's a couple ways to kind of think about that. One is that the church leaders are keeping you out of trouble, keeping you from unwanted pregnancy, keeping you from STIs, and that that's probably keeping your life less complicated. Then there's probably another way to look at it, which is like they're preventing you from normal, normative, healthy, exploratory experiences and. Or building a bunch of shame that's gonna leave scars and damage. Looking back now, do you see it as both or neither or one or the other?

Chase McWhorter [00:15:30] I think it's super individual because I think that some people I know, people that, you know, have abided by those rules successfully. It appears so throughout their life, because they're the type that you just tell them, don't touch the oven, and they never will. Unfortunately, my personality type is consistently been the opposite, where I want to make sure it's hot, and then I'll probably double down and make sure it's hot a second time. So I don't think, for me, it was really all that effective. And I think, you know, that's why it's part of what makes me me. But I also think that for some people, like my dad, I think my dad's the type that if you tell him not to do something and you say it's because of religion or God, or whatever. I think that he's the type that really won't. And so it's kind of hard for him to relate with me on that. But, you know, just variance in how we are and our personalities.

John Dehlin [00:16:17] I just, I saw a report, I don't know if you saw this, Samantha. I saw a report this week that Salt Lake City is third in the nation per capita for OnlyFans usage. And years ago I heard that Pornhub had Utah as like the number one per capita usage of porn. And then apologists want to dismiss that, but now it's coming up with OnlyFans. And I just really believe, and I've studied psychology a bit like there's a whole group of Mormons where you tell them not to do something, you're literally going to make them more likely to do the thing you're telling them not to do. In other words, the church is, for many Mormons, creating the problem that they claim to want to be solving. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. So you're saying that was your experience?

Chase McWhorter [00:17:05] Yeah, I think it is. I think it is based on personality. And I know for me, you know, I think that's why Utah is like one of the top opiate use states. I mean, because you can get your drug fixed, but it's from a doctor, which you can then say this is okay. And it's actually, actually probably a lot more harmful than medicinal marijuana or something or on a recreational usage. But yeah, I think that you, with people like me, when you tell them something like that, don't do this, don't do this, because I think that it would have been more effective for me and how I'll parent my kids is more so like you said at the beginning, where it's like the reason you don't want to have, you don't want to hook up with people in high school because I'm not advocating for that, but it's because of, you know, having sex in high school is really risky because you can end up with an unwanted pregnancy or you can end up with an STD or something that you just don't want to have to worry about at that age. And so I think it makes a lot of sense logically to teach someone like that without the like religious component of like this, this abstract person that you've never met, like kind of looking at you a different way and feeling a sort of shame that I think is a little bit hard to understand at that age and at that, at that, you know, at that maturity level. So that's How I'll go about it with my kids is just like, hey, I know how you feel. You're a walking hormone right now. Like, your girls make you feel a certain way. That's not going to change, by the way. Or boys or boys. And whether you're a girl or a boy, it might be. Maybe it's both. But, like, let's look at, like, actual constructive and healthy ways to handle that instead of abstaining. Because for some people, that can lead to them doing the opposite.

John Dehlin [00:18:41] Did you do release time seminary in high school? And if so, tell people what that is.

Chase McWhorter [00:18:45] I mean, is release time the one where. Because in Rexburg, it's part of the curriculum.

John Dehlin [00:18:49] Yeah, it's where you literally have seminary church instruction pretty much next door to your high school kids.

Chase McWhorter [00:18:55] Exactly. That was exactly what it was.

John Dehlin [00:18:56] So, like, you. You would pick an elective and it would be Mormon religion.

Chase McWhorter [00:19:00] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:19:01] As a part of your high school curriculum.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:02] Yeah. Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [00:19:03] And it was. We had five hours, and it was. One of those five hours was your seminary class per day?

John Dehlin [00:19:08] Every day.

Chase McWhorter [00:19:08] Every day. And it was two thirds because we did trimesters. So 2/3 of your year was dedicated, you know, one hour a day to that.

John Dehlin [00:19:15] Do you have memories of Mormon seminary?

Chase McWhorter [00:19:17] I rarely went.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] Oh, really? Yeah. So that means were you. Were you kind of a slacker?

Samantha Shelley [00:19:22] I.

Chase McWhorter [00:19:22] Why? Yeah, I just. I knew that was one that was like, I could kind of. I could pass the needed requirements for that one without a whole lot of attendance. I didn't go a ton. I. I typically would structure it right before lunch or right after. Double the lunch. That's kind of how I looked at that. But, yeah, no, it was. I do remember going. I mean, I went sometimes. And, you know, you learned about scripture mastery. You're singing songs about scriptures and going through whatever topics. I just. I always found the topic of religion in high school extremely boring and uninteresting. So I was always. Even on Sundays, I was like, oh, I don't really care. And that's why I think it wasn't until my mission that I even had any sort of idea. Like, I probably couldn't have told you what the difference was between mainstream Christianity and the Latter Day Saints belief until, like, my mission.

John Dehlin [00:20:08] Okay, so you're feeling all this guilt for, you know, according to the bishop, breaking the law of chastity, but your actual faith or belief was what surface level?

Chase McWhorter [00:20:18] It was very. I mean, it was like. Yeah, it was based mostly in, you know, being raised with parents that I think. I think I knew. Are Good people, and they'd found a testimony and a belief in what they lived. And I figured I'd get to that point. But I was always kind of procrastinating, I guess, to be scriptural the day of my repentance, and I just wasn't interested. It just wasn't a topic that I remember being in the MTC and then being like, okay, turn out, you know, turn to Timothy. And I'd be like, that. The small book or the big book? I didn't know. So I was like. But I'd been a member my whole life. I didn't really have an excuse. So, yeah, it just was like mostly apathy around the actual topic of religion, but I kind of figured it was the right thing to do. So I think that's why it was on my mission. You know, it kind of all came to a head. But.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:08] Okay, that's so interesting that you didn't really care about it that much, but you cared enough to go to the bishop to repent. It's like the. It almost sounds like the fear and the shame was like more powerful than your actual belief or faith.

Chase McWhorter [00:21:20] Yeah. And that's totally. That's what was for me. And I feel like I wrestled a lot with guilt and shame through high school. I don't think I had a lot of really transformative spiritual experiences of like, prayer or, you know, because I didn't try, first of all. So that's kind of on me. But yeah, I would say that my relationship with the church through high school especially was. Was mostly guilt ridden because I always had a proclivity to, like, talking to girls and hanging out with girls. And then, you know, one thing leads to another and all of a sudden I'm like, well, now I have to go talk to the bishop, you know, and. Was a common theme, common reoccurring theme for me in my upbringing.

John Dehlin [00:22:02] But it's also interesting because your dad was in a bishopric or eventually a bishop, and your mom was super devout, as you say. And so, yeah, I guess as a kid who grew up in Texas Mormon, where my family was in disarray, we had this impression that Utah Mormons, and I would say Idaho Mormons by extension. Sure, like, didn't take the church seriously, like those of us kind of in what we called the mission field.

Chase McWhorter [00:22:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:30] And I always just wondered, what was that about? Like, why wouldn't everyone take everything seriously all the time and be really intense about it? So on the one hand, you did have a faithful orthodox family. You're in one of the most Mormony Mormon places of all Mormondom. And yet it's not. It's not. You're feeling all the guilt and shame, which I think the church would say is the most important thing when you're a teenager, that you get marinated in that shame and guilt. But other than that, it just wasn't really top of mind. I don't. Do you, do you have a way to explain that?

Chase McWhorter [00:23:05] Yeah, no, I think I do now because I think I've done a lot of, you know, I feel like the church for me always. And I think that this is true for anyone. I think that religion in general is something that people it just like based on personality will have an attraction to to whether it's then that maybe puts them in alignment having a faith or a belief system. I think for me, I've actually, once I left religion I realized, oh my gosh, I don't have a bone in my body that's really interested in devout worship to some and not even Mormonism, just anything. And so I think that for me it was just like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. And it was out of alignment for me as a kid.

John Dehlin [00:23:44] I was just how you were wired.

Chase McWhorter [00:23:45] You were wired. It's not really, it's not hatred. It's not, it's not that I don't like that my dad goes and I wish he was different. I don't want him to be different. But I personally just don't have the interest because it's like if you try to show me, you know, I'm not a big tennis watcher and if you sit and sit me down and try to watch tennis for 12 hours, like, oh, this is kind of boring. Like I might do something.

John Dehlin [00:24:05] Although you're pretty good at pickleball.

Chase McWhorter [00:24:06] I mean, not really though Macy beat us.

John Dehlin [00:24:10] I did. Was, yeah, I did watch.

Chase McWhorter [00:24:12] Me and Mace actually got rocked in that. So Macy's way better. But yeah, I wasn't interested. And I think I, I, that also was something that made me feel guilty because I'm like, I should care about this and I should have a testimony and I should feel these feelings about a connection to someone because through prayer you can achieve that. And I tried praying. I mean I tried. I just never felt it. So I think for me it was generally or genuinely just something that wasn't in alignment with who I am.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] Love that. Thank you for that explanation. So what really quick, before we go to your college mission, what were you into in high school? Besides girls?

Chase McWhorter [00:24:45] Yeah, for sure. Girls I was. Loved girls and sports. Loved sports. That was my whole like all of high school. All I cared about was literally sports. And then. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:55] Did you let her like revarsity and

Chase McWhorter [00:24:57] you know, I played baseball and football my junior and senior year. Our football team was really good my senior year. You know, we had a bunch of good players too. It was not by any means just me. We had this phenomenal team. I played safety so I was on defense.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] So you're fast.

Chase McWhorter [00:25:10] I mean fast back then. Not anymore. But yeah, we were good. We won state my senior year. 5A.

John Dehlin [00:25:16] Oh, that's a big deal.

Chase McWhorter [00:25:18] Yeah, it was a big deal. Like our, our high school actually was never good like years up to that. It had been like 15 years since they were. They're really good at basketball. But our, our team won. I loved my friends.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] What's the high school again?

Chase McWhorter [00:25:28] Madison.

John Dehlin [00:25:29] And the mascot?

Chase McWhorter [00:25:31] Bobcats.

John Dehlin [00:25:31] Madison. Shout out to Madison.

Chase McWhorter [00:25:33] Madison Bobcats 2012. Yeah, but I had a great friend group I loved my friends was always getting into. Like we found a way to make Rexburg entertaining, which is really impressive.

Samantha Shelley [00:25:44] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [00:25:45] And what did Mormon kids do for

John Dehlin [00:25:46] fun or even naughty or Mormon kids do for fun in Rexburg?

Chase McWhorter [00:25:51] You know what's funny is all my, my really good friends that I grew up with were actually not like me. They were like rule follower, like really good dudes. And so what we did, there's like a recreational. You can go bridge jumping and you can. There's like stuff to do outside because Rexburg is you know, the three months out of the year. It's not 20 degrees under. It's. It's. You got a lot of stuff. You're in, you're in the middle of nowhere. So you go super cold, right? Super cold. And there's like, there's sand dunes close by. Those are fun. But most of the time we would just. My. My neighbor had a basketball court outside and we would play like hours and hours and hours of 21 or 3 on 3. And like that is literally how we'd pass the summer is playing sports and. Yeah. And later on I'd you know, go on date. I'd hang out with my girlfriend. But like that was it. Drive in theaters and basketball games. That was basically my who upbringing.

John Dehlin [00:26:39] So movies, sports and girls.

Chase McWhorter [00:26:42] That's it.

John Dehlin [00:26:43] That's it.

Chase McWhorter [00:26:44] It's truly like. Yeah, okay. Kind of boring sounding but I mean I had a good time.

Deciding Whether to Serve a Mission

John Dehlin [00:26:49] So being raised Mormon, what were you taught to think about your future post high school? Like if you were to say if the bishop were to pull you aside or your dad, son, tell us how your life's going to be. What was the plan for you?

Chase McWhorter [00:27:03] I think the plan was obviously companionship. I think finding, you know, your. Your wife for me, eternal companion and raising kids in the church, like obviously I always had a little bit of an aversion to like callings. I remember early on being like, I don't want to do that. Like I don't want to do anything extra than what I showing up because I already feel like that's a little bit taxing. But I remember, yeah, my dad kind of telling me like the, the purpose of it all obviously is to, you know, find your soulmate, your life partner, have children, raise them the same way and then find fulfillment in what you do for a living. And I kind of just planned on that.

John Dehlin [00:27:37] And mission.

Chase McWhorter [00:27:39] Mission went to Madrid, Spain for two years.

John Dehlin [00:27:41] Well, okay, wait, so right after high school, did you do mission first?

Chase McWhorter [00:27:44] So I was part of the group that was like the first 18 year old group, like where I actually was young for my grades. So I was planning on going to college for probably a year. And then 19 mission. And then when that announcement came out, it was in the fall of my senior year. So I remember I was like asleep. I think it was a Saturday morning announcement. And so I was not watching. My mom comes running into the room and she's like crying. She's like, gotta go watch this and go out there. And it's Monson, right? I think it was Monson that announced it. And he was like, yeah, we can now go at 18. I remember being like, oh, now I can put my papers in like basically next month instead of having to wait a year. So that was a huge like, oh shit, I better start taking this seriously moment. Cause I wasn't.

John Dehlin [00:28:24] What was it like to not really be into religion other than the guilt and shame stuff? And then to stare into the possibility of two years of telling everybody, you know, the church is true and not only that, but that they need to join too. Brutal. What was that like? Was it.

Chase McWhorter [00:28:39] It was brutal.

John Dehlin [00:28:40] Why was it brutal?

Chase McWhorter [00:28:41] It was. I mean, I again, I kind of just continued to procrastinate any preparation for the mission until I left, which was pioneer day of 2013. And I had a girlfriend at the time that I was really into. And I remember being like, I don't really want to do, like, this is bad timing, but I'm going to because I need to. And I have younger siblings. My dad was always like, you're the example. You Know, and I felt like I was the example for a lot. So I felt kind of the pressure of doing that for, if not myself, at least my siblings, which is ironic because now I'm like, I have a different perspective, obviously. But, yeah, I remember on my mission in the MTC for the first time, being like, okay, like, I'm going to go tell Spaniards like, that they're wrong. It was Madrid.

John Dehlin [00:29:24] Madrid, Spain. Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:29:25] Speaking Spanish.

Chase McWhorter [00:29:26] Speaking Spanish. And had to, you know, I was really bad at Spanish, obviously. Didn't take any. I didn't really, like, take Spanish in high school. So starting from ground zero there and then also was grappling with the fact that I didn't really feel like I knew my religion. So it was a lot. It was a lot. And I think that, like, the only reason I got through my mission is because I think that I do well in social scenarios and I can make friends with anyone. And I really did make friends with a lot of people on my mission, and I got through it. But I remember for most of my mission feeling like. I don't know why I feel. I don't. I don't feel qualified to really tell this person who's 80 years old and been Catholic his whole life that he's actually wrong. And it's. My country is actually the. The chosen one. And he. You know, because this has been around for, you know, there's. There's castles here, and it's like we go over there and it's. You know, and where I'm from, especially stucco buildings. Yeah, stucco buildings in byu, Idaho. Like, it's not. It's not exactly a. Of a movie. So I just. I struggled with that and my whole mission and. And, you know, that's why about a year in, I met up with the Jehovah's Witness. And that's. That's the first time that I was like, oh, shit. Like, this might actually be a little bit.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:32] This.

Chase McWhorter [00:30:32] This might not be it.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] What happened?

Chase McWhorter [00:30:34] So we were. Most of my mission was street contacting. We were just, you know, which is very, you know, long days. But I also liked it. Cause we were outside and we never really got a ton of. If you could get three or four people to give you their number a day, that was a great day. And this person was very interested. I'd love to learn more about God. I've been looking. And the whole time you're on a mission, you're praying for that to happen. So we were just stoked and wanted to meet the next day. We end up Going to meet up with them. And it turns out it's a Jehovah's Witness masquerading as an interested investigator. And they. I remember this person had, like, a stack of papers printed out, two of them. And it was basically at the time, when I looked at it was anti Mormon literature, talking about Joseph Smith and some claims about him prior to the first vision and all that stuff. And it's the first time I'd ever heard any of it. And I remember looking at it and just kind of reading it. My companion is talking more than me. I'm being like, there's no way this is real. And then him being like, yeah, no, it's true. You guys take it home. It's all whatever you want to do. And Mike, we got out of there pretty quick. But I took it with me. My companion didn't. And I was like, I want to read it. And then throughout various companionship studies over the next two, three months, I would go on through it and being like, holy cow. Like, this is hard. Like, I don't know. And I remember kind of struggling because I'd been out for a year. I wasn't going to come home because actually, at this point, I was having a fine time. And I spoke the language decently. So just kind of being like, okay, I'm going to kind of tuck this away, but I'd like to actually look at this when I have time to do it, and I'm not teaching all day. But, yeah, it was really. It really, really, really affected me. And I actually feel like later on my mission, my last area, there was a man who I still talk to, the only guy I still talk to for my mission, who's like. He's 89. His name's Carlos. And he. We met him because we were proselyting at night. We ran into this. This. This old guy, very like, old guy who's kind of laboring to his car. We stop him. We're like, hey, where you headed? He's like, I'm taking my wife, you know, dinner or something, who was. And she was in a. She was basically immobilized at that point, very sick, and she was the love of his life. Anyways, long story short, we brought her flowers. I think the next week, it was Mother's Day or something, and it changed his whole. He was sobbing, he was so grateful. We ended up teaching him for about three months every Tuesday. And he loves when we go over because he's old and his poor wife is no longer able to talk, and he Can't. You know, he can't really. He doesn't really have a companion anymore, so. But I remember we gave him the Book of Mormon. We challenge him to read it, and then when it comes time to actually formally invite him to be baptized, he told us, like, hey, like, I love this. I love you, Gu. Really appreciate your offer, but I made a promise to Lily, which was his wife at the time that we got married, that I would always be true to her and I'd be true to the Catholic Church. And he's like, I'm not going to change that. And I remember my human visceral reaction to that take off the missionary badge was like, hell, yeah, that's exactly what you should do. And I remember my companion being like, he was a young kid. I think he was actually training him, actually, I think. And he was like, well, and he kind of goes into, like, the whole testimony thing, and I was just like, oh, dude, I don't feel strongly about him going into Mormonism, like, with that being his origin story. And I. For the rest of the time, I taught him. Because then the. The kid that I was training gets transferred out, and I have another person there with me, and I'm like, no, this is. This is Carlos. We're not going to baptize him, but we're going to hang out with him every Tuesday because he's one of the best dudes I've ever met, and we can teach him a lesson, but mostly, like. Like, we're not gonna. I'm not gonna make this guy get baptized, nor do I want him to. We invite him to church and stuff, because I know that he liked community and he wanted more of that. But I still talk to him today, and I'm like, one of the best things I ever did on my mission was not baptize that guy.

John Dehlin [00:34:18] I love that story.

Samantha Shelley [00:34:19] Yeah, me too.

Chase McWhorter [00:34:21] It was. It wouldn't have been true to him, and I didn't feel like it felt true to me. So I. That was when I was like, oh, yeah, I don't actually think this is right for everybody. And that was kind of what started my, I think, deconstruction.

John Dehlin [00:34:30] Really? That was part of the beginning. Yeah, yeah. Because I remember I served in Guatemala in the late 80s, and, yeah, if somebody said to you, sorry, I love my faith, you would say, well, you're mistaken. You know what I mean?

Chase McWhorter [00:34:45] You don't have all the truth.

John Dehlin [00:34:46] Or they'd say, well, I felt the same Holy Ghost that you have. It's just. It told me that My faith was true. And then a missionary would literally, a Mormon missionary would say, well, Satan can deceive people and can counterfeit the Holy Ghost. It's a gross, horrible thing.

Chase McWhorter [00:35:01] It's really. When you peel it back and especially

John Dehlin [00:35:03] when you're like, 18 or 19, you know, almost nothing. Yeah, right. About life.

Chase McWhorter [00:35:07] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:35:08] So that's cool you. I mean, that's cool that you were so dialed in to respecting people's paths growing up in Rexburg at such a young age. I didn't figure that out until years later.

Chase McWhorter [00:35:22] Well, it's nice that you say that. I think that, like, I think that just having such a love for this guy, I mean, it really quickly clicked with Carlos and I. That's why still talk to him. And just knowing, like, dude, there's. If. If. I really quickly remember that night. I think I laid there thinking, like, if Carlos doesn't get baptized and. And our, you know, Jesus. God doesn't allow him into whatever the highest degree of whatever you believe. Like, I'm out. Like, I. I don't really want to be a part of that because he loves his wife, and he loves a commitment he made to her 55 years ago. And I think that's so much. Like, I can't sit here and tell you that. I think that's wrong. And so that's. That. That did start it. It kind of started it. And then, yeah, my whole thing, you know, after that just became very individual, which is, like. I do think that people that like the church, like my dad, he. You know, I think in some ways it serves him. And I. I just. I'll never speak for him, and I just don't know him on a level that I know myself, and I don't really. I don't really want to. I think he's the master of himself, like we, you know, they say. And so I. I realized really quickly, like, what's right for me. And that's when it started to unravel for me and realized, like, I don't think this is a plan for everyone. It can be a plan for you. Like, I'll trust your opinion, but, like, don't tell me what my plan is for me. And then I. That made it hard for me to want to tell people that what. What the plan was for them, obviously. So, yeah, I think by nature, the mission, you know, I. I kind of put blinders on and got through the rest of it. But after that, I realized really quickly, like. And now I hear missionary stories, and he's probably done this where I was at a buddy's missionary welcome home. And he was telling a story about how they knocked on this old lady's door and she's, no, no, no, I'm not interested. Come to find out, they knock on her door, like a month later, her husband's passed away. She's tragically sad, and she's just really, really, really downtrodden and just looking for answers. And they're like, well, you want to see him again? Take the lessons. And so she succumbs to their invitation and ultimately gets baptized. And like, they. They teach that you can look through that. You can look through that story through two lenses. One of them's like, what the. What an amazing conquering of the missionaries who continued to go back and were persistent. And the other one's like, that's kind of sad that you kind of preyed on a lady who I think was really, really emotionally just completely down, and now she's buying into something that I don't think she needs to because she probably could have found that in another way. But again, and it's what lens you choose to look through it. And I've seen that a few times now where I'm like, dude, I don't love. Like, if agency is such a big thing, like, why are you shoving it down, you know, and knocking on her door? And I understand the whole, you know, I understand the other side of it, but I've heard those stories now, and it's a little bit less palatable for me because I'm like, man, it says in the handbook, or preach my gospel, like, look for people who are new to an area who have suffered a loss. And I'm like, that sounds really nice. When you're a missionary, that's actually like manipulation 101.

Mission Experiences and Doubts

John Dehlin [00:38:09] That's a little predatory.

Chase McWhorter [00:38:10] It's super predatory.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] Find the poor people who are immigrants,

Chase McWhorter [00:38:14] and that's who you teach your message to and ultimately will get them to sign up for the membership.

John Dehlin [00:38:17] I mean, you could also argue, and I think it's also true. There could be multiple things true in parallel that even conflict. But sometimes if someone has no education or they're poor, or they don't speak the language, or, you know, joining the Mormon Church can be really good to help lift them up.

Chase McWhorter [00:38:33] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:38:34] So it can be predatory. It can also be life saving.

Chase McWhorter [00:38:37] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:38:37] Both. Both can be true.

Chase McWhorter [00:38:39] I love that you say that because there is that side of it where I think that I remember actually baptizing people who were. I was in the Canary Islands for six Months. And some Ghanaian people who didn't speak English or didn't speak Spanish at all and spoke English in kind of a different way than I do. And I remember them getting introduced to the church was awesome because there was other Ghanaian members and all of a sudden they have friends. And so it's like, you know what, I hope that guy's not paying tithing because he needs the money, but I also think it's cool that he has friends. And I'm happy to be the person that assists me in that. So I don't think it's all super negative either. I like that you said that because there's, there's two ways to look at it.

John Dehlin [00:39:13] Yeah. Really quickly, I'm curious. Were you like an obedient missionary? Were the rules hard? Like, the rules are pretty intense. Although were you able to call home weekly?

Chase McWhorter [00:39:21] Because ours was twice a year.

John Dehlin [00:39:24] Twice a year. So, yeah, I mean, only P days when you. Once one day a week for most of the day you can do personal things. But the rest, it's just all service.

Chase McWhorter [00:39:33] You know, I was really, I think I was really obedient. And then the last six months were kind of when I had this like, oh, I don't actually think letter of the law is something that I, I really operate off of. And I was still like, we would work the whole hours, like do everything the right way, but I was way more, way less. I took way a lot of pressure off me and my companion to like. I remember sometimes, you know, our mission had a big push for lessons in the street. And then people were like, literally like haggling someone to just stop. Let's share a principle with you. You, what's your name? My name's Elder this, Elder that. We're going to teach you about faith. Can you read this? Okay, we're gonna say prayer. I remember like, that was the weirdest interaction for anyone that ever experienced it because we're just two guys in a white shirt, like literally jamming a 30 second thing down their throat so that we can tell president we got, we got a lesson taught. And I remember being like, I'm out on that. Like, we're not. If they don't want to sit down with us. Like, we're not teaching a lesson. I'd rather teach zero at the end of the day than like fake four of those and make people think. Think that we're weird. In retrospect, probably should have just made them think that we're weird so they don't later on succumb to that stuff. But, yeah, I took a lot of pressure off because I kind of slowly started realizing, like, I don't think I'm all in. I'm not drinking all the Kool Aid. I'll drink enough to get through this. And I still believe it, but I'm like, I'm out on some of the rigid rules that feel performative.

John Dehlin [00:40:46] But you weren't, like, a party missionary.

Chase McWhorter [00:40:48] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:40:48] Or a super disobedient missionary.

Chase McWhorter [00:40:50] Not at all. I was too scared. I was, like, literally too scared to do that because I thought, like, I will, like, condemnation. Like, I didn't want to mess with any of that.

John Dehlin [00:40:58] Okay, Samantha, I'm checking in. I'm curious if hearing Chase's Mormon story up through his mission is different than you would have guessed based on, let's say, his Persona or what you've seen just on Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I know I'm putting you on the spot a little bit, but does this track with what you would have guessed, or is this quite different from what you would have guessed? Seeing the show?

Samantha Shelley [00:41:26] I think it's probably about what I would have guessed.

John Dehlin [00:41:29] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:41:29] It sounds like you had, like, a kind of healthy ability to keep yourself separate from it, even on the mission, which is interesting to me. Like, discovering all that stuff from the Jehovah's Witness. It's like, you sounds like it threw you off a bit, but it didn't, like, completely wreck you the way that it would with a lot of, you know, less healthy people.

Chase McWhorter [00:41:50] Yeah, I felt like I. I knew that I. Finishing my mission was important because I was like, I'm here, and. But I also did the same thing. Like, I always think that I looked at things a little bit differently than the way that my parents do, which is not. I don't want to say blind obedience, but, like, definitely not questioned obedience. And I think it's part of their generation because they didn't have one of these. And I think that I always had access to more information than them, and so I always kind of knew. Like. Like, I. I've always been someone that if I have an opinion on something, which I do on most things, but it's generally gonna be something that I can also. I can also substantiate. And so that's why early in my mission, I actually really got into, like, the. The arguments. Like, I. I love the way that

John Dehlin [00:42:31] people would argue scripture, like, scripture bashing or whatever.

Chase McWhorter [00:42:34] Scripture bashing. I was like, I kind of want to be the best at that. But then I realized really quickly that, like, that's a circle. Like, you can be the best scripture basher. And there's. It doesn't ever. First of all, you never teach anyone anything. You never change anyone's opinion through doing that. It's, like, politically, too. Like, you're not gonna change someone's opinion politically by whatever you think is gonna change their opinion. It has to be. It has to be cordial, and it has to be real. And it has to actually also have, like, interest on the other side to change their mind. Otherwise, it doesn't go anywhere. So it's not productive. And I feel like I actually do, like productive conversation. So, yeah, I feel like I was able to handle maybe the little bit of a shaking of the testimony. It was also kind of a relief for me, to be honest, because that made me feel like, okay, maybe I'm not, like, gonna burn in hell for never figuring out how to completely abstain from XYZ with girls. Because I remember having very vivid. Actually, ironically enough, at the beginning of each new year in high school, I remember I'd be like, man, another year. And I'm still kind of struggling with what I was last year. This sucks. Worthiness. And I remember being like, that's a brutal. Like, my. I don't think my friends struggle like I do. I don't think my parents know I struggle like that.

John Dehlin [00:43:44] And of course, your friends were struggling, too.

Chase McWhorter [00:43:46] 100%. 100%. And, like, I didn't want to talk about it because you don't want to. It's shameful. So, yeah, I. I'm glad that you said that.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] Yeah. That's a weird mind trick Mormonism can play on people. They make everyone feel like they're the only one who's a terrible person. When. When everybody's feeling bad about something that everyone's doing but no one's admitting or talking about to anyone else.

Chase McWhorter [00:44:09] Yeah, you feel secluded. You feel very isolated. And it's funny because my brother, who's younger than me by five and a half years, I think we have personality similarities. Is like, we talk later on in life, and we're like, oh, damn, you thought that too. Like, that's how you felt like, same

John Dehlin [00:44:23] and your brothers and you didn't feel comfortable talking about it.

Chase McWhorter [00:44:25] Well, and there's just a pretty big age gap. Like, I got back from my mission, and he was 15.

John Dehlin [00:44:29] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [00:44:30] So, like, through high school, he was like. He was just so little. And now. So it was later on, call it like college for him. And actually, after my divorce, we got to be Roommates for, like, a year and a half, which was really fun. But it was funny because we're like, oh, we all had. We had very similar struggles, and we just. We kept it to ourselves.

John Dehlin [00:44:45] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [00:44:46] Out of fear and out of shame. So. Yeah.

Meeting Miranda and Courtship After the Mission

John Dehlin [00:44:49] So what year did you get back from your mission?

Chase McWhorter [00:44:50] 2015.

John Dehlin [00:44:51] Okay. And Samantha, I think I met you in 2014. Is that right? That's what I remember.

Samantha Shelley [00:44:57] It was probably 2016.

John Dehlin [00:44:59] No, no, no, no, because I was.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:01] Well, I got married in 2015.

John Dehlin [00:45:04] Oh, yeah, yeah. I knew, I knew, I knew.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:06] So it would have been maybe 2015 then.

John Dehlin [00:45:09] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you were. Were you at BYU, Idaho at the same time?

Samantha Shelley [00:45:14] Chase was 2010 to 2014.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] Oh.

Chase McWhorter [00:45:17] So I would have been like, winter semester 2015.

John Dehlin [00:45:20] Okay, okay. But you would have been there when he was living there.

Chase McWhorter [00:45:24] Yeah. Cause I lived there all the way.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:25] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [00:45:25] 2013 is when I left my mission. So you were in Rexburg. Fun.

John Dehlin [00:45:30] Okay, so 2015 is when you get off your mission. And would you say you left your mission still being a believer of sorts?

Chase McWhorter [00:45:37] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:45:37] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [00:45:38] I mean, I had my doubts, had my cracks in the foundation or the shelf, you know, but no, I did. I did believe it. Came home. My first date was Miranda.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:48] Oh, what?

John Dehlin [00:45:49] Okay, tell us how you met Miranda.

Chase McWhorter [00:45:51] So, funny story. My aunt used to send me updates. We were really close with my cousins in Rexburg. They also live there, and they have kids that are around the same age as us. She'd send me an email every Sunday with a breakdown of basically everyone's week. And I loved it because, like, in your mission, you don't get a ton of emails. And one of them she sent my cousin Mitchell, who was Miranda's age, two years younger than me, was going on a date, like a. Like a homecoming or something, with a girl named Miranda. And I remember being like, who is that? She is gorgeous. And so I remember being like, that was the first. Like, I don't know who that is, but she's really pretty. And I got home, and I think she followed me, or I followed her. It was actually a really funny story where I didn't understand Instagram at that point. It's been two years before I left. You couldn't DM anyone. And so I remember Miranda likes a photo, or I like a photo. She does back and forth. I'm finally like, I'm going to DM her. I go to DM her and I realized, like, it says, take a picture or type. And I thought it was like, Snapchat then, because I'd had Snapchat. So I take a picture of me. Like, one shot. I'm, like, laying in bed. It's the worst picture. And I send it to Miranda. I'm like. Like, I don't remember what I said. And then she just types a message back. And I was like. Like, I didn't know you could do that. I thought you had to send a picture. But, yeah, we go on a date.

John Dehlin [00:47:00] Was she. How old was she?

Chase McWhorter [00:47:01] Was she in school right out of high school? Like, she was 18.

John Dehlin [00:47:03] Was she from Rexburg, too?

Chase McWhorter [00:47:05] She's from Rigby.

John Dehlin [00:47:05] Rigby. This is Idaho, which is where my mom's rural.

Chase McWhorter [00:47:09] Like, from Rigby.

John Dehlin [00:47:11] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:47:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:11] So, like, potato bill, right?

Chase McWhorter [00:47:13] It's potato veil, dude. Like, it's. It's real. Really? Southeastern Idaho is. Yeah, it's potato land. And we hit it off, like, really quickly. Really liked Miranda, obviously thought she was stunning, but also just really a cool person.

John Dehlin [00:47:26] Can I just. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but for me, she might come off as of season four. She might come off the best. To me, of all the secret letters,

Samantha Shelley [00:47:37] I feel like she's always come off the best.

Chase McWhorter [00:47:38] She literally. And I'm so glad you said that, because she is 100%. She is. She seems smart.

John Dehlin [00:47:43] She seems grounded. She seems wise at the moment. Pathetic.

Chase McWhorter [00:47:46] She is.

John Dehlin [00:47:46] Do you feel that way, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [00:47:47] I've always thought she was the best one from emotional.

Chase McWhorter [00:47:51] Emotional intelligence. I. I've never met anyone like Miranda who's.

John Dehlin [00:47:54] She joined season two. Right.

Chase McWhorter [00:47:55] She did season two. And a lot of people didn't like her because they all thought, like, you know, Taylor, Frankie, Paul has a ton of fans. The way that, like, Miranda left that scenario, people didn't really understand Miranda's side. So a lot of people thought she was fake. And then now people now see Miranda for who she is. And it's really cool for me because obviously I've known her really well, and I think that she deserves, like, the best, because she is the best. But, like, that's how she always was. She was always so. And she grew. She came from a very orthodox upbringing as well, so she was super in

John Dehlin [00:48:23] it to win it.

Chase McWhorter [00:48:23] Yeah. Yeah. And the nice thing about Miranda, though, she didn't do a mission or anything, but she had her beliefs, and she still maintains her core Christian values. But, like, yeah, I actually left the church about a year before she decided to. That was a friction point with a lot with her family.

John Dehlin [00:48:38] We'll get there.

Chase McWhorter [00:48:39] Yeah. Yeah. But no, she. She was such A cool person. I think that we kind of aligned on, like, we believe this, but also we're not so orthodox, and we clicked on that. And then. Yeah, we started dating. Got married about a year and a half later.

John Dehlin [00:48:54] So she was 18 when you met her?

Chase McWhorter [00:48:56] I was 20 and she was 18.

John Dehlin [00:48:57] And you were right off your mission. She's the first person you dated off your mission?

Chase McWhorter [00:49:01] First one.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] And did you only date her? Pretty much.

Chase McWhorter [00:49:04] She was going to Weber State that

John Dehlin [00:49:06] winter, so that's in Ogden, Utah, for those who don't know. Yep.

Chase McWhorter [00:49:10] And I was going to byui, so we were going to be like two and a half hours apart.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] Okay. Why was she going to Weber?

Chase McWhorter [00:49:15] She wanted to be like. She wanted to go into. I'm going to forget now.

John Dehlin [00:49:19] There's some. Some program.

Chase McWhorter [00:49:20] Some program.

John Dehlin [00:49:21] Weber State.

Chase McWhorter [00:49:21] It was down at Weber State and she had a friend going down there, so.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [00:49:25] Yeah, she wanted to get out of southeastern Idaho and go.

John Dehlin [00:49:27] If it was nursing, it was. It was. It doesn't matter.

Chase McWhorter [00:49:31] I'm going to remember when I. After this. But, yeah, she goes down there. I'm at byui. I kind of wanted to date around, too, because I hadn't. But it's funny because whenever she would come home, like for Christmas, we'd hang out, and then I end up going to Utah State. So now we're only 30 minutes apart. Go Aggies. And we started hanging out, kind of reconnected down there. That's like a hour drive from like 40.

John Dehlin [00:49:55] 45.

Chase McWhorter [00:49:56] 45. Yeah. You got through the canyon. But she. Yeah, we kind of reconnected and then started dating and got married like, eight months after that.

John Dehlin [00:50:04] And did you feel like you got to date enough other people to feel like you chose someone who's, well, a good fit?

Chase McWhorter [00:50:11] No, I don't think I. I don't think I felt like I dated enough. But I also knew that Miranda, like, I always knew that Miranda was like, one of one. And so I didn't want to, like, lose Miranda either. But we did kind of do a fair amount of off and on because she was like, hey, are we doing this or not? And she looks back now and she's like, why did we put any pressure on getting married? We should have just like, been a little bit more, maybe moved in together, kind of see how we like it. But again, we were pretty orthodox.

John Dehlin [00:50:36] It's the least Mormon thing ever to do. No, the most morbid thing to do is get married within six months.

Chase McWhorter [00:50:41] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:50:41] How long did you know your. Do I say his name or I'd rather not say.

Samantha Shelley [00:50:45] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] Yeah, yeah. How long did you all know each other?

Samantha Shelley [00:50:47] Not long enough.

John Dehlin [00:50:48] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [00:50:48] Yeah, I'm getting, like, two months vibes. That one. That's.

John Dehlin [00:50:51] That's Margi and I.

Samantha Shelley [00:50:52] You're not wrong.

John Dehlin [00:50:53] We're 10 months from getting from meeting to marriage. And that's long.

Chase McWhorter [00:50:58] That's long. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:59] You're.

Chase McWhorter [00:51:00] You're way into it.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] Okay, so y', all, what, a year and a half?

Chase McWhorter [00:51:03] Well, I say that like. No. No, because I got home from my mission in early July of 2015. I got married in May of 2017. But I only knew. I think that me and Ryan only dated for probably about a little over a year of that, so probably about a year and a half. Yeah, I guess.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:19] So by Mormon standards, y' all knew each other quite well.

Chase McWhorter [00:51:23] Yeah, we were. Yeah, I guess you're right.

John Dehlin [00:51:25] But looking back, you don't feel like you necessarily did.

Chase McWhorter [00:51:27] We just. We got married too young, and she would tell you the same thing.

John Dehlin [00:51:29] So you were. When you got married, you were how old?

Chase McWhorter [00:51:32] I was 20. I just turned 22.

John Dehlin [00:51:35] Okay. And she was.

Chase McWhorter [00:51:36] She was 20.

John Dehlin [00:51:38] Okay. And, okay, you mentioned that part of what attracted you to her was that you weren't, like. That's all my words. Ultra orthodox.

Chase McWhorter [00:51:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:46] That you were kind of a little more chill.

Chase McWhorter [00:51:48] I felt like still believing, but.

John Dehlin [00:51:49] But chill about the church. Is that right?

Chase McWhorter [00:51:51] Exactly that.

John Dehlin [00:51:52] So what were the ways that manifest? Like, drinking caffeine?

Chase McWhorter [00:51:56] No, I mean, I knew that Miranda kind of had a little bit. Like, she went to Weber, and I think that she kind of. That's when she kind of drank alcohol for the first time. And I knew that.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [00:52:05] And I didn't. By the way, did she do that

John Dehlin [00:52:07] feeling guilt and shame or, like, didn't really believe.

Chase McWhorter [00:52:09] Miranda always operated on a way better scale with skeleton shame than me.

John Dehlin [00:52:12] Oh, I want to hear how a Rigby girl ends up not feeling terrible. Like, I still haven't tried beer. Like, how in the world. Yeah, I've still. I've never tried alcohol. Like, how does a more Mormon girl raised in Rigby go to college and drink alcohol and not feel like she's the worst person ever?

Chase McWhorter [00:52:29] I think that Miranda's mom and dad did a good job. Mom, for sure. Her mom is awesome. I really like Miranda's mom a lot. I think that she does a really good job of still instilling the Mormon values, but also she did a really good job of instilling a lot of. Cause there's four daughters, no sons in that family. So four daughters. And I think, yeah, Miranda always felt like she was the kind of the captain of her own ship.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] Interesting.

Chase McWhorter [00:52:55] And I think I was attracted to that too. Like, I was like, okay, so you've kind of done some of the things that I feel guilt and shame for and even some things that I haven't done, and I would for sure feel guilt and shame for. But you seem to kind of still have a good relationship with self. And she was always like, yeah, like, I don't necessarily feel that bad about that. Like, I was always like, that's so cool. Like, I really wish I could do that.

John Dehlin [00:53:14] Interesting. And what would she have? And I know maybe we should have her on if she ever wants to come on. But I wonder how she would have described her Mormon faith at the time. She was not living all the standards, as we call it.

Chase McWhorter [00:53:27] I think what I attribute it to, and I've talked to her about this, is I think that having not gone on a mission, I know that Miranda definitely felt like she's like, I know what we believe, but I don't really know. I always go to the Jeffrey R. Holland talk where he's like, it's either true or it's not. That was another big thing for me where I was like, like, really, like, okay, challenge accepted. And I don't think she ever got to that point where she's just like, I kind of look at it as a great way to live and it's kind of what everyone around here does. So, like, why not? But, like, it's not. Yeah, it's really, really, really mature perspective.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] Does that blow your mind, Samantha, to hear that about?

Samantha Shelley [00:54:04] No, I don't think so.

Chase McWhorter [00:54:05] I think she was ahead of her time because I think a lot of people now live that way.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:08] Yeah, you.

John Dehlin [00:54:09] You were. Samantha, you weren't a Mormon that way when I knew.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:11] No, I was very orthodox.

John Dehlin [00:54:12] Yeah, so was I. Yeah. But. But why doesn't that surprise you?

Samantha Shelley [00:54:16] Just because there's a spectrum always, you know?

John Dehlin [00:54:18] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [00:54:19] And I think that Miranda. I'm like, you guys, where I was like, I'm either all in on this or I might be all the way out. And I did kind of go all the way out overcorrected. But Miranda's always had just, again, like, a very good sense of who she is, what she wants, who she like. I'm very, very even now. And today Miranda's helped me with a lot of perspectives and paradigm shifts because she's very into, like, I guess people would say woo y stuff. And I think that there's a lot of credence to some of that, and it's helped me, actually, as well. But she's always operated on a very healthy emotional level that I think that I just haven't.

John Dehlin [00:54:57] Did she hide that stuff from her parents?

Chase McWhorter [00:55:00] I do actually think that a lot of it comes from her mom. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:03] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [00:55:04] Because her dad, I think, actually is a lot more like us, where it's a lot of guilt, a lot of shame, a lot of kind of black and white, and he's a great dude. But I think that her mom is someone who is also still lds, but she's also very. Seems pretty nuanced, and it seems like she kind of takes things that she likes and maybe dismisses the things she doesn't. So.

John Dehlin [00:55:23] Yeah, so you don't have to answer this, but, like, one huge reason Mormons get married so quickly is because they not supposed to have sex before they get married. Did y'. All. Were y' all more flexible that way, or.

Chase McWhorter [00:55:36] No. I mean, kind of. Yeah, we. I think we did. You know, I think we were a little more cooler with, like, doubles and triples, like, to go baseball terminology. But, like, before we got married, we did go to a bishop in Orem, actually, because we, like, felt we're, like, we probably should talk about it. And he was a really cool dude. Like, more, I guess, in Mormon terms, you'd say he was a cool bishop because he wasn't like you guys are. He did make us wait, but not super long, and he was super encouraging. So we did go to the bishop about moral issues that had happened because of the law of chastity. Like, we followed. We tried to follow the rules, and when we didn't, we, you know, felt like we had to answer for it.

Temple Wedding and Early Married Life

Samantha Shelley [00:56:12] Okay, and you had a temple wedding?

Chase McWhorter [00:56:14] We did. Rexburg Temple.

John Dehlin [00:56:15] Oh, okay.

Chase McWhorter [00:56:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:18] So. And in your mind, were you both enough believers to believe you were gonna get married for time in all eternity and that sort of thing?

Chase McWhorter [00:56:25] Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think we. At the time, I remember we had a really cool temple, like, experience, because I know the guy, the sealer, was, like, a ward friend, and he said something about my grandpa who had just passed. And I remember just being like, that's, like, really cool. Like, really personal. And so, yeah, like, I feel like, for the most part, like, good experience.

John Dehlin [00:56:47] A lot of the people we've interviewed have described their Mormon temple experience as a bit culty. Did either of you feel that way when you first went through?

Chase McWhorter [00:56:57] Yeah, I remember I went through with Miranda for the first time. And I had gone for her first time for her first time. Because I went on my mission, I had my endowments out, so I went with her when she got hers. And I remember just being like. Because you know how everyone kind of. They've been through it when they're going with someone that's going for the first time. Everyone kind of puts up these, like, hey, just so you know. Which I think is crazy, because you shouldn't have to do that. But I remember watching her and her being like, this is weird. And then afterwards, I always told Miranda this. This is like one of the first combos we had. In retrospect, it's kind of funny, because I always thought, like, you know, the celestial room's cool. I don't love the decorating. I think it's kind of gaudy, you know, But I'm like. I think all they do to make it really feel nice is they first couple kingdoms, they're gonna, like, put it, like, 83 degrees. And then as soon as you get celestial, they'll go to, like, 68, and you're just like, oh, like, that's a great. I always feel like I walk in there and the AC's on. I'm like, this is my fish. Favorite part is the ac, and I guess the chandelier maybe.

John Dehlin [00:57:50] Interesting.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:50] Yeah. Celeste room's definitely the best pop.

Chase McWhorter [00:57:53] It's just cooler, though.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:54] Like, you don't have to move anything around.

Chase McWhorter [00:57:55] Yeah, you get less stuffy. I feel like that was, like, 90 of it, personally.

John Dehlin [00:58:00] Okay, so you remember your wedding day, your temple, marriage, wedding day as being a good experience?

Chase McWhorter [00:58:07] I do. I remember, like, Miranda was the one, actually, that got a little bit of cold feet. And I think that was probably an indicator for her. I was like, let's do it. And she was kind of like. Like, I'm super stressed today. I was like, oh. But, yeah, I remember it was a pretty good experience. I mean, it was your standard Idaho Mormon wedding. I mean, we went to, like, a. The whole. The whole thing was pretty standard, but it was also, like. It felt right. I thought it was cool, you know, looking back, like, that's not how I'd want to get married ever again. Obviously, it's not very individual. It's not like Miranda got to pick out her, like, you know, she's being. She's wearing her garments, and she hates them. And she wants to, like, wear a dress that. Miranda's beautiful, like, objectively look one of the prettiest people ever. And she wants to Wear a dress that reflects that. And she felt like that maybe wasn't all the way true with her having to abide by garment standards. So I think that's kind of a disappointment and a bummer that you have to, like, make something that's garments are now a part of your life for three weeks, and now you have to abide by those standards all of a sudden. I think that's kind of weird. But I think that, like, for the most part, we had a good experience.

John Dehlin [00:59:02] Yeah. Okay, so where did y'. All. How did your. How did your Mormon experience go after getting married in the time Temple?

Chase McWhorter [00:59:10] You know, it was good. We really quickly, like, I don't think we went to church a ton. Like, we would move. We moved a lot because I did summer sales. I was like, the token.

John Dehlin [00:59:18] Where'd you go?

Chase McWhorter [00:59:19] We went to Denver.

John Dehlin [00:59:20] Was it alarms or alarms? Pest control.

Chase McWhorter [00:59:23] Yeah. Well, I did pass for once. I did pest once when we were dating, but it was alarms. We went to Denver, San Antonio, Houston. So we were in Texas.

John Dehlin [00:59:32] That's such a Mormon thing.

Chase McWhorter [00:59:33] It is days.

John Dehlin [00:59:34] And she went with you. That's not normal.

Chase McWhorter [00:59:36] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:59:37] For the spouse to go with. With the.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:38] Well, she.

Chase McWhorter [00:59:39] Yeah, she went with me like, all three or four summers that I went out. And, yeah, like, I think we didn't ever really go to church out there because it's like, Sunday's your one day off. Like, why go to church? We'd hang out, do kind of what we wanted, and then when we came back, like, I mean, okay, wait, can

John Dehlin [00:59:57] I call you on that?

Chase McWhorter [00:59:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:58] Not call you on it, but, like, again, I'm married to Margi. We're not missing church. Like, so I want to slow down and say, I know that we're not the only type of Mormon out there, but in my mind, that's what it means to be Mormon. You always go to church every Sunday, especially after your temple married. And you make these covenants in the temple of consecration and tithing and obedience for so many Mormons. That freaks out you out into, like, hyper, hyper devotion. Especially because, you know the kids are going to be coming soon and you want to, like, lay down those righteous tracks so the kids can have that upbringing. Samantha, that was also you when you got married. At least at first, right?

Samantha Shelley [01:00:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:49] So, yeah, go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [01:00:50] Well, I was going to ask, did you just. Because it sounded like you both did believe it ultimately, but did you just think God was chill?

Chase McWhorter [01:00:56] I think that we were okay with a little bit of cognitive dish dissonance. I think that we were kind of like, well, we are pretty tired. Like, I have worked Monday through Saturday. Like, I would like to hang out with you.

John Dehlin [01:01:06] Is it a brutal sales summer?

Chase McWhorter [01:01:07] Yeah, I mean, it's like, literally Monday through Saturday. You're working most of the day, and you come home at, like, 9pm and so I think we kind of justified it.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] And what was she doing while you were doing summer sales?

Chase McWhorter [01:01:18] You know, she was either. I wanted it, by the way. I felt like one of my favorite things about summer sales was I had no money. But I loved that Miranda, at the very least, could we stay at, like, a pretty nice apartment complex, like, with a pool, and there's other wives there that she was friends with. And so, like, I liked that, like, me going out in summer sales meant that Miranda could kind of hang out and, like, chill by the pool or go on a walk with the dog. We had a dog for a while. I loved that because you want to feel like you're, you know, like you're providing. And I didn't have a lot of money yet. That's the whole reason we were out there. But I like that. And so she would hang out. I think that for her. I remember we watched a lot of shows together, like, in the morning, because I wouldn't go out till, like, noon. And we'd watch. We went. We went through Breaking Bad. Like, we had, like, things that we would do together that I really liked. And then I go work, come home, we'd have dinner. And, like, I kind of liked the schedule. Obviously wanted to get out of sales, but. Or summer sales, but. Yeah, like, we kind of found our groove. And I. A church we went to a couple times because we had friends that were very lds. And some of my friends. My friends from high school, and they would go every Sunday. And so sometimes we'd be like, all right, we should go to church. It's been a few weeks we'd go. But I remember, like, never really feeling too bad about missing. And I think that's because, again, Miranda and I kind of aligned on this. Like, I do believe this. I don't know if I'm all the way in on it, but, like, I'm in on most of it. And then for me, that unraveled.

John Dehlin [01:02:42] Yeah. Because, I mean, for you, it was never really synchronous with your worldview.

Chase McWhorter [01:02:46] No, it never was.

John Dehlin [01:02:47] Yeah. Yeah. So some call that Mormon ish. You were Mormon ish?

Chase McWhorter [01:02:51] I think that's how I describe myself. I was Mormonish in a land of extremely orthodox Mormons.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:56] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [01:02:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] Okay. So how many years did you do summer sales and did you, either of you, ever go back to school and finish school?

Friendships with Taylor and the Mom Talk Community

Chase McWhorter [01:03:02] I didn't go back to school and finish school to the. To the chagrin of my parents. I did five years summer sales, and so it was a pretty good amount of time. And then actually, I met Taylor's ex husband, Tate. He was working at a SaaS company and kind of introduced me and got

John Dehlin [01:03:17] me software as a service.

Chase McWhorter [01:03:18] Yep, yep. Software as a service. Medical software. And he got me an interview, and I interviewed and got the job and started working basically ground level at a software as a service with Taylor's ex husband.

John Dehlin [01:03:30] Where'd you meet him?

Chase McWhorter [01:03:31] We met up, like, Miranda and Taylor did a photo shoot in somewhere, and they kind of clicked, and they were both like, oh, we're married. Like, our husbands might get along. And then we went to Olive Garden and met him. That was our first time we ever hung out.

John Dehlin [01:03:43] What city was this?

Chase McWhorter [01:03:44] Riverton.

John Dehlin [01:03:45] Okay, so you had moved to Riverton by that point?

Chase McWhorter [01:03:48] At this point, we lived in Idaho still. We hadn't made the move to Utah, but we were trying to.

John Dehlin [01:03:53] And did you go five years without kids? No.

Chase McWhorter [01:03:57] The last summer of summer sales, Miranda. It might have been four years, but Miranda was pregnant with our first. The last year. And that's kind of what was like expediting my intrigue and finding something that wasn't displacing us every nine months.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] So that is a bit of a long time to wait to have kids by Mormon standards. Four or five years, right?

Samantha Shelley [01:04:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:17] Did you talk about. Was that just another thing you felt comfortable?

Chase McWhorter [01:04:21] Yeah, I think that. Yeah, I don't think that there was a huge rush ever, actually, the first time, even getting pregnant with our first, Miranda was kind of like. Miranda was the youngest. She's the youngest of four. She has a sister that has no problem getting pregnant. I think she had one that had a little bit of a fertility journey. So she's like, we might as well start trying. And I swear to God, it was the first time we. We even tried. She got pregnant, and that remained true for the second. Our second kid, too. We were like, so she got pregnant. We were excited, but she was like, I don't want to move every summer when we have a kid. And that's kind of what got me into looking and ultimately what led me to Tate and Taylor.

John Dehlin [01:04:57] What were your impressions of Taylor when you first met her?

Chase McWhorter [01:05:00] Immediately thought she was so cool, like, really, really funny, really charismatic. Tate, her husband, was like, funny dude, like, he did really well in sales. I could tell. And I was attracted to the fact that they both seemed like they, you know, pretty happy. But also just like, the thing with Miranda, they seemed like they were Mormon, but they're like, yeah, we sometimes go. And I was like, I kind of fuck with that. And I like that outlook, because I myself don't love going.

John Dehlin [01:05:29] So. Okay, so by the time you meet Taylor and Tate. Tate, what year is that? Approximately? 2,000? 20. 20.

Samantha Shelley [01:05:39] 2018.

John Dehlin [01:05:40] 2018.

Samantha Shelley [01:05:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:41] Okay. And what. What cohort generation do you. Are you Gen Z? What do you call yourself?

Chase McWhorter [01:05:47] Millennial.

John Dehlin [01:05:47] Millennial. Yep.

Chase McWhorter [01:05:48] Tail end of, like, latter. Very end of millennial, I think by, like, a year. 97 is two years. Yep. So Miranda's technically the last millennial.

John Dehlin [01:05:57] Okay. Okay. So you're still, like, late millennial. I wonder how common it is for that cohort to view Mormonism more casually, even the ones raised in Utah and Idaho. Yeah, Like, I wonder how typical you and Miranda were, because you're now saying that. That Taylor and her husband were also just more chill and relaxed.

Chase McWhorter [01:06:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:18] I wonder how common that is for kind of late millennials.

Chase McWhorter [01:06:22] I think it's. I think. I think late millennials do take on a lot of the, like, Gen Z of, like, kind of questioning anything. And we for sure were like that. And I think it validated us when we met people that were like that as well, because Tate and Taylor are actually older than us. They're like, 93, 92, but same exact outlook. And I think I'd argue they were actually even more chill by Mormon standards than we were. And I think that was something that was attractive because we were just like, oh, I don't want to feel. My friends in summer sales, they kind of give me the side eye after a month of not attending church. And these guys are like, I don't think I've gone to church in six months, but I'm Mormon. And I'm like, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:56] Interesting.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:57] Samantha, my first interview with you and Tanner, if I remember right, was called Losing Mormon Millennials.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:04] Right.

John Dehlin [01:07:06] And. And it was. Y'. All. Y' all had stopped believing by that point. You had started up on the shelf. Is that right? And. And I. I think we were noticing at the time that the church was starting to hemorrhage millennials. Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:19] Were you noticing that in your cohorts?

Samantha Shelley [01:07:21] Yeah, I think. I mean, I went to byu, Idaho, so people were quite orthodox a lot, but they're also even. There were a lot of members more like that. That. Yeah. Were just more chill, did it a bit more buffet style.

John Dehlin [01:07:36] I wonder if there's anything about. If y' all could. We'd even know. Like, if you're a fish, you're swimming in water. You don't even know the water. Like, I wonder if the cultural milieu that both of you were marinating in contributed to a bit more of a casual approach to mormonism than, say, the 80s milieu that I was marinating in as a Mormonism.

Chase McWhorter [01:08:00] I would argue it would, because I do think that from an early age, having been surrounded by a very, very, very high amount of LDS members, I always was aware that there was varying levels of belief. Like, I had friends that were like, I'm Mormon. And I'm like, you don't follow any rules. Like, that's. That's a little far, you know? And then I had some that were just like, you're like, they wear their church clothes all day on Sunday. Which I was like, where does it say that? And so I think that I was always around varying levels of it. And I have cousins, too. Like, my dad's family. He's got seven siblings, and some of them are members, some of them aren't. Some of them are, like, really, really into it. Some of them are, like, a little bit more casual. So I think that, for me, I saw that pretty early and obviously was like, I'm going to take the more casual approach because that seems to be more in alignment. And so I think it would be something like that, like, where, as if you grow up in California and you're like, one of 10 students in your school, it's kind of like, well, we're all kind of the same, because this is. This is our community. It's very small. I don't want to misrepresent it by being, like, a casual member, whereas I had the ability to misrepresent it, I guess, per se. But I could just fit myself into a different grouping of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:09:10] Do you have a thought on that? Just the kind of the cultural environment being different?

Samantha Shelley [01:09:15] Well, I do feel like the Internet is a big deal because, I mean, I was, like, on Twitter the whole time I was at byu, Idaho, for example. And just. I mean, I remember when I was doing Millennial Mormons, we were both orthodox members, but if we would even do, like, a satire article that was, like, not making fun of church leaders, but was, like, just funny, there were people that would feel like we were being, like, sacrilegious,

John Dehlin [01:09:43] but you felt inclined to maybe do some parody or satire and that's something that maybe previous generations wouldn't have felt empowered.

Samantha Shelley [01:09:50] Yeah, I felt like a very orthodox. Like I really was stalwart. But then, yeah, the generation above, they didn't really appreciate any kind of sort of humor or personality being added to was like, just don't even go there. Don't even make satire about the church, even though it was not anti church.

John Dehlin [01:10:07] Yeah, interesting. I mean. Cause I knew super orthodox Mormons and Jack Mormons growing up in the 80s. So I guess the big differences I think about in the 2000 teens is that by 2015, the CES letter comes out. Throughout the 2000s and 2000 teens, Mormon podcasts start emerging and the Internet just makes information more accessible. So I wonder if that. Do you think that I don't want to put that into your story?

Chase McWhorter [01:10:36] No, I do. I do think that that's. That I really think contributed. I remember I had at my disposal the first time. I remember, like after my mission, I kind of looked up the CES letter and I remember that one was a little bit. I wasn't quite ready to digest it, so I kind of just read a little bit stopped. The letter to my wife was actually way more. Way more pivotal for me.

John Dehlin [01:10:57] Tell people what that is.

Chase McWhorter [01:10:58] That one's just another. It's like a ce kind of like that. But it's basically a husband who tried to like, he's like, my wife is having a faith crisis. I'm going to go through all of her questions and basically cite sources and prove to her the church is true, essentially. And then in doing so loses his own testimony because he's like, oh my gosh. Like, this is. There's a lot of credence to these arguments.

John Dehlin [01:11:19] And he tried to write a tone that would be more acceptable because Jeremy maybe have been a little more sharp elbowed.

Chase McWhorter [01:11:26] Yep. And he was very, very. And that's why it was more digestible for me. And I read it and was like, oh my goodness, this guy's trying to convince his wife. You know, and in doing so, it's like, that's actually. I think that when someone can go into an argument and then come away with it and being like, I actually think I'm wrong. I think that's hugely emotionally mature and also like, it's real because we all want to be right, but like, we're all by nature never going to always be right. And I love that about that because I was like, that is so cool that like he published, like, this is something that I can read because if you lose an argument, you typically want to, like, not talk about it, or you don't want it to be a subject of a lot of focus. And he was like, no, on the contrary, this is what helped. And I felt like that really resonated. But again, my parents didn't have access to that, you know, in their growing up. And I'm sure you, like, you can just look up something on the Internet with a click or two. So I think that was a huge part of it, too.

John Dehlin [01:12:17] Okay. So as you move, eventually you end up up in Utah. You meet Taylor and her husband. You think they're pretty cool. Yeah. By that time, you and Miranda had been five, six years. You had at least one kid. Is that right? Yeah. And did you go five years kind of being not super devout Mormons by that point?

Chase McWhorter [01:12:41] You know, I think we were. We went to church again. We moved a lot, so that actually, every time we moved, we felt like we didn't really, you know, we didn't have connection to Ward. Yeah. It's just kind of hard to, like, replant yourself. But I remember we got a place in Orem that was right over by the Gold's Gym over there that's now ivasa. And we, like, ended up going to that ward and had a decent time. I remember I played a church ball with those dudes a few times because I was, like, trying to assimilate into that group. And so we tried to go, but again, we weren't operating off of orthodox standards by any means. And I think that we kind of hid that from our parents because they were like. My dad would ask me, how's. How's church? You guys got a calling yet? I'm like, oh, not yet. I don't know why. I don't even know the Bishop.

John Dehlin [01:13:23] So y' all started to do, like, things like try alcohol as a couple or have beer in the fridge, that kind of thing, or.

Chase McWhorter [01:13:29] I'd only tried one thing one time on a cruise with Miranda. Really, really shitty cruise, by the way. We. I tried, like, Sky Vodka, and I drank enough to, like, you know, make a horse go to sleep. And so I had a miserable experience. Got seasick. I didn't try again for years. And then it was actually at a cabin party with Taton Taylor, which is kind of the, you know, the prequel to the eventual Swinging drama that I started drinking again. And.

John Dehlin [01:13:54] Okay, so you went years not doing that kind of stuff, didn't drink.

Chase McWhorter [01:13:58] And I was in college. Like, I never drank. I was dd and I didn't really feel Like I was making that decision out of sphere of my parents. It was more just like, I've gone this long, like, who cares?

John Dehlin [01:14:08] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [01:14:09] You know?

John Dehlin [01:14:09] Okay. So still trying to make the church work. Okay, so maybe it's time to now talk about how the friendship. What's that?

Losing Faith and Leaving the Church

Samantha Shelley [01:14:20] Can I just ask a question, please? In that time, you've become a dad, right? And like what did you feel ready for? That was that was you becoming a dad, like connected to Mormonism in any

Chase McWhorter [01:14:31] way or me becoming a dad is when I really started to be like, I, I remember having very, very clear discussions with myself like, okay, I have a son now. I can't really half ass, like parents are wondering about like, when am I going to bless my son in the church? And we did actually end up doing that.

John Dehlin [01:14:50] So you said the blessing. I did bless your son.

Chase McWhorter [01:14:52] And I actually like would do it again because again my whole thing on that is like, it's my son. Like I actually, maybe I'm not worthy by your standards. But at that point I was like, I don't really care, like I'm going to say a prayer and you know, for better or for worse. And so I, I deconstructed even more at that point. But I wasn't ready to like step away. I think my son was when I was like, okay, either I'm doing this and I'm going to get a calling and I'm going to do it the right way or I'm all the way out. And I had a friend at the time that came to some of these cabin parties that was like a, he'd already. He went on a mission. He deconstructed and he's very smart. He actually is a big fan of you and he's actually what introduced. Who introduced me to stories. Yeah. And anyways, I would ask him questions a couple and then he would give me like a ton of info. And sometimes it was like, okay, it's

John Dehlin [01:15:39] a little much like about Joseph Smith.

Chase McWhorter [01:15:41] Yeah. Like, and he could give you every detail and super smart guy. One of the top, one of the most at that exact company though that I worked at. Like, he's the top dude. He crushes it because he's a genius and he's so smart and he's also, he's a good dude. But he helped me kind of deconstruct because I was like, I'm either in or I'm out and I want to figure it out. And I was kind of taking steps towards deconstructing but like not being vocal about it to my parents, obviously, or my community at home. And, you know, I kind of was like, I don't really know how to announce that or go about doing that, but I don't think I believe this anymore. And I think I'm kind of out. And that's kind of. That's why I was starting to engage more in, like, drinking felt okay. And like, trying out marijuana or whatever this. You know.

John Dehlin [01:16:24] When you were having these big doubts, did you talk to Miranda about them?

Chase McWhorter [01:16:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:27] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [01:16:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:29] How was she processing that she was

Chase McWhorter [01:16:30] cool about it because she was always like, yeah, for sure. Like, she didn't have, like, super rigid opinions on it. Again, I think that she was just so, like, Well, I don't. I already don't really struggle with this guilt complex, but so she. She totally knew and was really. Was really supportive about it too, along the way because I voiced to her like, I'm. I'm not. I don't want to leave the church because I want to sin. I want to. I want to want to. I don't believe this. Or I do, and I want to figure out what the right one is for me so we can follow it. So. Yeah. And that kind of set the stage for, you know, what ultimately helped me get a leave the church, which was you know, basically a public humiliation ritual by the, you know, by way of Taylor Paul going on Tick Tock Live.

John Dehlin [01:17:11] So.

Samantha Shelley [01:17:11] Damn.

John Dehlin [01:17:12] Okay, so you. But so around. So around. What year are we talking about where you start to have friends? Where you maybe start to party with a little bit?

Chase McWhorter [01:17:21] Well, Covid. So 2020.

John Dehlin [01:17:23] Okay, 2020. You're living where we're. You moved to Herriman. Do you buy a house or you

Chase McWhorter [01:17:30] got a little house up there, so

John Dehlin [01:17:31] you're doing well enough in what, software sales to where you can buy a house?

Chase McWhorter [01:17:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:35] Miranda has one kid or two by this point.

Chase McWhorter [01:17:38] At this point, one coke or our second's on the, like, almost on the way.

John Dehlin [01:17:43] Okay. And you're doing well enough in your career to buy a house in Herriman that's actually quite good?

Chase McWhorter [01:17:47] Well, low interest rates at that time. They were killer. But yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:51] And Herriman is Herriman a lot like Daybreak, like tiny houses all bunched up next to each other.

Chase McWhorter [01:17:57] Yeah, yeah, it's. It's, you know, we had a single family home in a cookie cutter neighborhood. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:03] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [01:18:03] It was. It was ours. We liked it. I loved it. I felt like it was, like, cool to have a place. But yeah, we were like, I could like, reach out my window and Touch my neighbor's house, you know?

John Dehlin [01:18:10] And did y' all attend your Herriman ward at first, at least?

Chase McWhorter [01:18:14] No, at this point, we didn't really go ever.

John Dehlin [01:18:15] Okay, so was there, like, okay, we're moving to heroin, we're gonna have a clean break for Mormonism or what?

Chase McWhorter [01:18:20] Yeah, I think at that point, we just, like, were kind of disinterested in the topic of, like, really attent church attendance. I think at this point, we'd really. I'd really deconstructed the point where I was like, I don't have any. I don't have any interest in going.

John Dehlin [01:18:31] So you lost your faith completely by the time.

Chase McWhorter [01:18:33] At this point, I'm like, I don't think I believe all this. Like, and what were, let's say, the

John Dehlin [01:18:37] top three to five issues were you just. That maybe made you feel comfortable leaving the church?

Chase McWhorter [01:18:44] I already. I kind of knew. Like, again, the whole Jeffrey R. Holland talk, I really put to the test where I was like, either I will believe this, or I think it's completely made up. And then there were things that I thought helped me realize that's what I thought. And part of it was ever changing. I feel like standards keep changing. I feel like.

John Dehlin [01:19:01] Which ones?

Chase McWhorter [01:19:02] Well, you know, like, even grooming and dress. I felt like it was funny how, like. Like, I mean, garments now. I guess this is later. But, like, I was like, I don't really feel like that makes any sense. I don't feel like the Lord looketh on the harp and not the outward appearance, but he apparently really cares about the outward appearance when it comes to garments. I. I don't think that makes any sense. You know, obviously had issues with, like, the whole. The civil rights movement and the timing of, like, the, you know, blacks getting the priesthood. I felt like it was really, really interesting. And I kind of was like, oh, that doesn't sound like a. A God that knows everything and loves everyone was very. It sounds, like, reactive, not proactive.

John Dehlin [01:19:34] And so the fact that, number one, the church, the Mormon Church, didn't allow black men to have the priesthood or women to attend the temple, that's a problem. It's racist. But then the fact that the church buckled in 78 and gave. It felt like they were caving to social pressure.

Chase McWhorter [01:19:50] Yes. Totally reactive.

John Dehlin [01:19:51] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [01:19:52] And also, I thought, like, at this point, I had a couple friends that were. That were gay, and I was like, I can't imagine. I can't rationalize. I know to your core, this is who you are. And I can't imagine a God that loves everyone, that sets us up for. Sets you up for failure because you can actually get married to the love of your life. And it's like I would always picture myself, if I had to get married to a man in order to make it to heaven, how miserable that would be for me, just because that's not who I am. And that was a huge one because I got pretty politically interested at this point too. And I had some rigid opinions about politics. And that was my. My views are pretty against the grain as far as like Rexburg and people that I grew up with. And I remember just being like, that doesn't make any sense at all. Like, I don't agree with that at all. I can't co sign that. Obviously this early church stuff that I started to get into, that I was just like, immediately, no, you know, whether it be polygamy, you know, I think I still to this day, I think the Brigham Young is like, I mean, this is going to be something that may maybe a sound bite, but like, I think Brigham young would have 100 been a guy that was in the files. Like that dude who was a.

John Dehlin [01:20:58] You mean the Jeffrey Epstein files?

Samantha Shelley [01:21:00] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [01:21:00] Like that guy totally loved power. He loved manipulation, he loved being able to take.

John Dehlin [01:21:04] He loved young women.

Chase McWhorter [01:21:05] Loved young women. And like I think of like all the early church prophets and I'm like, the people's disgust with the people that are in those files and the whole thing, I'm like, that is exactly what happened. Almost that same thing happened. Like, that's not. But that's not new. And so can I say Joseph Smith

John Dehlin [01:21:24] has so many parallels to Jeffrey Epstein. Honestly, totally. Brigham got it from Joseph 100%. Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [01:21:30] And I realized that and I was like, I don't need to co sign this. Like, I actually think that you can find all the things. One of my favorite quotes, I don't remember who said it, but it was like everything that I love about Mormonism is available outside of it. And everything that I don't, like, you don't have to worry about. And I was like, yeah, like eternal families. Cool. That's not a unique. I mean, Mormons like to think it's unique to them, but it's not. Like, you know, I don't really know if I believe in that anymore. But at the time I was like, I can have that outside of it. You know, faith and becoming a better person and doing good to your neighbor. That's like every other religion. That's actually like, basically all the religions are like those ones. So I found the core tenets that I liked were available outside of the confines of Mormonism. And I realized, like, I don't believe this, and I don't really care, and I didn't tell my parents, and I had no. I just wasn't ready for that because I was very terrified of how they would react. But that's why I think, in retrospect, the whole Taylor going on live and outing us all as swingers was actually a really good thing for me, because I wanted to. Yeah, sorry.

John Dehlin [01:22:26] Ask a couple more questions before we go. Yeah, yeah. There's the quote. Everything good about Mormonism isn't unique. And everything unique about Mormonism isn't good. Isn't necessarily good. Right. Okay, so. Oh, and so did you, like, reach a point where you're like, I don't believe this anymore, and then, like, tell Miranda I don't believe this anymore. Yeah, you did. Yep. And did she say, me neither, or did she say, I don't care enough

Chase McWhorter [01:22:54] a little bit more? She was a little slower with it just because, again, she didn't have all the huge feelings that I did about it. I remember I told her. I was like, this is actually. I remember the exact thing that made me tell her that I'm out and I think I'm ready to get the. My records removed was just. Just when I really. When I. When I deconstructed the. The Atonement, which was always. Yeah. Always talked about in such high regard, obviously, as this incredible sacrifice that, you know, he did for Jesus Christ did for all of us, which is. You know, that's like. I remember on my mission, there's no topic that brought people to tears more than the Atonement. And it's like the center of everything. And I just. Like, everything else, when I really peeled back the onion for me was like, okay, but I think I didn't even ask for that. And, like, I don't really want him. I didn't. I'll suffer for my sins, actually. And, like, I don't. I mean, I don't want to have to follow all the rules you put forth for me because of something that happened thousands of years ago that I don't even remember, like, giving the thumbs up on. And I remember being like that alone. Like, I think I'm out. I think I'm out on that because. And again, if that puts me in hell forever, like, so be it, but I'm not. I didn't ask for that. And not to be insensitive, but, like, that's. That's actually classic manipulation, which is like, I did this for you here. Like, create the problem, sell the solution. I'm like, that's at the core what the. To me, what the atonement is, which is. And again, some people love that. And I hate bringing this up, because people get really, really sensitive about this.

John Dehlin [01:24:17] It's sacred to them.

Chase McWhorter [01:24:18] Very sacred. And, you know, that's great. You know, what's sacred to me is, like, my favorite band, and they probably don't like that. So I. I just. Just think that when I got to that point and realized, like, oh, my gosh, I'm actually totally okay with not subscribing to that. And I don't think that just because the atonement happened, which, by the way, everyone that tells you it did, good for you. But you have to believe in it in a way that I just don't. So that was when I was like, oh, yeah, I'm out.

John Dehlin [01:24:46] There's a meme, Jesus died for my sins. That's manipulative. Have you seen what I think? Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:24:51] Yeah. Me and Tanner have been saying that for, like, a decade. We did not ask him to do that.

Chase McWhorter [01:24:54] Yeah, I was like, ask him to do that.

John Dehlin [01:24:56] No, I had the exact same concern. One of my first Mormon stories episodes. I'm like, if God made us all to be imperfect, so we're supposed to feel terrible that we sin, that's like, his choice. What's that?

Samantha Shelley [01:25:07] Sorry, Carry on.

John Dehlin [01:25:08] Yeah, no, say it.

Samantha Shelley [01:25:09] It's just on him, you know, that's what he chose to make. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:25:12] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:25:13] And then how's that my problem?

John Dehlin [01:25:14] And then we're supposed to feel terrible, and then he chooses to punish his son. Bleed and suffer and die. That's just inhumane. Like, why is Jesus getting all that torture for the mistakes we make? And then all this happened without my consent, so I'm supposed to feel terrible about it. And again, to a Mormon, this is the absolute worst possible thing you could ever say. Is what we're saying right now.

Chase McWhorter [01:25:37] It's blasphemous.

John Dehlin [01:25:38] Right?

Chase McWhorter [01:25:38] And it's totally.

John Dehlin [01:25:40] But I think we make good points, even though it's also.

Samantha Shelley [01:25:45] And I mean, I love Jesus. I think he was a mystic much more than Mormonism and acknowledges.

John Dehlin [01:25:50] Yeah, so you're still pro Jesus, just not pro Mormon.

Chase McWhorter [01:25:53] Eternal theology, I think, too. I think Jesus, actually, the way I look at it, it was like, that dude was very much in alignment. And that's my whole thing was like,

John Dehlin [01:26:00] so we're not anti Jesus here right

Samantha Shelley [01:26:02] now, but I'm Pro gnostic Jesus. Like a lot of stuff about Jesus. I mean, our whole perception of Jesus is filtered through whoever was in power who was dictating what he's presented as. But actually he was like a mystic, desert wanderer guy.

John Dehlin [01:26:16] So we're not antichrists, we're anti. Mormon atonement theology.

Chase McWhorter [01:26:21] Yeah, anti. You telling me what Jesus, what he meant to me. You can do whatever you want with how he meant to you and how that means you need to act in your day to day. I don't care. But like, I'm also going to make the call on that for myself.

John Dehlin [01:26:34] Yeah. Mormon atonement is guilt trip theology.

Chase McWhorter [01:26:37] Totally.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:39] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [01:26:39] Yep. And here's the solution. XYZ.

John Dehlin [01:26:41] Pay the church 10%. Obey the church till you're dead. You know, feel terrible about all these things that you do that are human

Chase McWhorter [01:26:48] and don't read anything else that's, you know, that has anything else to say besides, you know, church approved sources. And even the church approved sources. Like, we're going to tell you how to interpret it.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] So when you told Miranda all this, she's like, she was kind of like,

Chase McWhorter [01:27:01] okay, yeah, like, I respect it. She's like, I support it. She's like, it's obviously at that point, I think I went through a stage of like, anger where I was vocally upset with the church and I would try to tell people about how much better it was to not believe in it because that's what it was for me. And I feel like that's a terrible place to be too for like just being like accusatory and attacking and try to go to my mom, who's obviously not ready for this, nor does it matter because it's her life. But like, I had a phase and she didn't like that. She's like, okay. And I think in retrospect, like, I didn't like that. I didn't like that version of myself either because I was doing the exact same thing that I didn't want people to do with me, which was telling me how or what to believe. And that's what I left. And so for me to do the same thing afterwards was difficult for me to rationalize. And I got to a good place with that, where, I mean, fun fact actually on a light bulb moment for me was realizing this on a beach with my friend. We were dropping acid, if I'm being honest, and having some of the most productive conversations I've ever had because it helped me with my relationship with my dad and how I view him. And How I was kind of the same side of a different. The different side of the same coin where I wanted him to succumb to what I believed and why I thought it was right. And he wanted the same thing for me and that's why I didn't like him or I had a hard time with him. And I realized, like, dude, the only way for me to be happy is to worry about what I believe and how I want to live. And absolutely no one beyond that, even my kids. I should just be like supportive, support, love. That's it. I don't have to even tell you what's right and what's wrong. Obviously there's, there's like some things that are black and white on that, but like, for the most part it's like, dude, I think that we're all about. I'm all about experiencing, you know, emotions of every single part of the spectrum. And I think that's what life is. And so I stopped. I kind of retracted my, like my anti whole thing and I, I now I'm like super comfortable. I have friends that are LDs and friends that still believe, and there's some that are more nuanced, but I don't care. And I love them because they know what's best for them and I would never, ever, ever be arrogant enough to tell them what I think is best for them. I just ask for the same thing in return.

John Dehlin [01:29:06] That's beautiful stuff.

Samantha Shelley [01:29:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:08] Yeah. Okay. Beautiful. So you have met Taylor and her husband by this point. Really quickly, did Taylor exhibit, You know, right now by season four, there's this Taylor Dakota dynamic that just comes off as super toxic. And, and did Taylor show signs of that early on or not?

Chase McWhorter [01:29:34] Not early on, no. I mean, at this point she's married to her ex husband who's very different than Dakota and. No, not at all. I think that Taylor. I thought the same thing about her where I was just like, oh, if you didn't tell me that you believe in the church, I don't think I'd even know that you did. Not to knock on her, but she didn't. She drank coffee. I remember she like loved coffee. I mean, her coffees. I tease her for a coffee order because it's barely coffee. It's mostly like a milkshake. But she drank that. And I was like, okay. And she's like, I drank in high school. She didn't at the time. She didn't drink anymore. But she didn't live her life in a way that you'd be like, oh, you are Mormon or you are lds? She was just kind of like, that's my faith. I do believe it. But it seemed like it was kind of, like, on the back burner of things. And I. That's why I liked her, because I was like, that's kind of where I want it to be for me.

John Dehlin [01:30:26] So. So did you and Miranda, like, become close friends with. It's Tate and Taylor.

Chase McWhorter [01:30:32] Best friends.

John Dehlin [01:30:33] Best friends.

Chase McWhorter [01:30:34] We ended up, like, doing twice a night, twice a week. We'd get. We'd go over to their house, doordash, just hang out, talk like, this is Covid time. This is Covid. Yeah. This is, like, little pre Covid. And then Covid. Yeah, we just hang out with them. Like, this is. Before we ever drank or anything. We just would go over there doordash, put the kids down. Sometimes we put our kid down in their, like, spare bedroom, and because he slept really well. And we'd just hang out until, like, midnight, and then we'd go home.

John Dehlin [01:30:58] Like, what would y' all do?

Chase McWhorter [01:30:59] Just hang out, literally talk about whatever. We'd literally laugh for hours. Like, it was so much fun. And that's why we loved them, because it was such a unique friendship where, like, we could just hang out. It wasn't like we had to do a. Like, go somewhere or have, like, an activity planned. It was like. And Taylor's very low key, and he was too. Tate was very, very much, like, stay in, kind of just chill. And we would stay in, hang out, watch something doordash, laugh, talk about whatever the. You know, they would do. Tick Tocks at the time, Tick Tock was brand new. And then we just do that. That was it. Like, it was, like, the most.

John Dehlin [01:31:32] Did y' all drink together? At first.

Chase McWhorter [01:31:34] It wasn't until later. It was probably later in Covid, like, a little bit after Covid, where we started to, like, Airbnbs were very affordable because no one was getting them. And so we'd book a big Airbnb, go up, and, like, some people would bring alcohol, some people wouldn't drink by.

John Dehlin [01:31:48] More couples are being more couples.

Chase McWhorter [01:31:50] Yeah. Like, more friends that we work with. Like, work with at the same company.

John Dehlin [01:31:54] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [01:31:54] Wives.

John Dehlin [01:31:55] Okay. So, yeah, talk about how other members of the. Of the wives or whatever started being added, who got added, you know, and. And. Or. Or. Well, that happened later.

Chase McWhorter [01:32:05] Very early on. It was just co workers, basically, that were friends. But then later, I mean, our friends Camille and Sam, they ended up meeting Taylor and Miranda, and they started to come hang out more. And that's when Those three girls started doing, like, mom talk videos.

John Dehlin [01:32:19] Who's the third person?

Chase McWhorter [01:32:20] Her name is Camille.

John Dehlin [01:32:21] Oh, we don't know her.

Chase McWhorter [01:32:22] I don't think you guys know her. Maybe you. That's like early, early days of like, this is 2020, and this is when mom, like the origin of mom talk, which is funny. Hilarious to say, but, like, they would do videos, those three. And all of them, by the way, would, like. Cause people were shocked that they were all. They were really, really obviously really pretty, but they were also very young and they all had kids. They were just like, what's going on in Utah? Like, these are the moms out there. Like, they look like they're 23.

John Dehlin [01:32:46] Did they call it mom talk from the start? And what did they explain what they were doing and why to their husbands?

Chase McWhorter [01:32:53] No, I mean, it was nice for us because we were all at work. And then they'd be like, hey, instead of just like, they'd go hang out, make a few videos on TikTok. And this is early, early days. So, you know, that's just like a fun thing for girls to do. And then they'd have the kids doing playdates. So it was like, really nice because the kids are kind of playing with friends. They're getting a social interaction that I think that a lot of moms that, you know, you get married and have kids that you kind of don't have because you're just at your house with the kids all the time. So they kind of got to check that box. It was all our friend group anyways. And then we'd kind of plan on, like, our next hangout at whether it was a cabin or maybe we'd go to Mexico, which we did once. And, like, it was so fun. It was like a such a fun friend group. And it was really wholesome because there wasn't any, like, swinging happening yet. It was really just like, hanging out and we all had a good time and we were all kind of in this similar stage of life, which was like, we're not hyper religious. A lot of us are deconstructing. And we're also, like, hanging out pretty frequently and feel like we are a part of something, which I think is also something people have a hard time with when you get married and have kids and work all the time and don't have a friend group.

John Dehlin [01:33:54] Was there a lot of angst and intensity around people leaving the church or questioning the church or even. And being low key about the church? Or was it just. No, not even really addressed.

Chase McWhorter [01:34:04] Wasn't addressed I felt like I was the only people. Yeah. I feel like no one really cared about even talking about it. I was one of the only people that I felt like I'd talk to my friend and be like, dude, so tell me about this. And he'd be like, well, yeah, this and that. But that wasn't like, no one really cared. Like, Miranda, Taylor. Those girls were kind of like, my relationship with the church is what it is. I don't really care to talk about it. Like, just didn't care.

John Dehlin [01:34:22] Like, see, that's so different, again, from my Mormon experience. Yes. And women like. Like the Mormon girls I would have dated to BYU, they would have left you if you, like, 100, lost your faith or started drinking or they would say, our marriage is over. Yeah, but y' all were married to different types of Mormon women.

Chase McWhorter [01:34:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:43] Not that it's bad. Just it's different.

Chase McWhorter [01:34:46] Yeah. And then some of our. Some of the people in that friend group, like, were active members, but, like, didn't really. They drank or they were also going. They didn't really care. They just. No, yeah, we go on Sundays, but we don't like. Oh, cool. So it was very, very. No judgment. No one even asked. No one really cared. I mean, I cared because I was actively deconstructing, and I kind of more minded around, like, I need to make a decision on this. But, yeah, for the most part, it was, like, very much not a topic.

The Swinging Scandal and Marriage Breakdown

John Dehlin [01:35:15] Okay, so there's two tracks, and Samantha, jump in at any point. Like, there's two tracks I want to follow is, like, the growth of mom talk and then the growth of, like, behaviors that led to the swinging scandal. And maybe those things happened in parallel.

Chase McWhorter [01:35:31] They did.

John Dehlin [01:35:31] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [01:35:32] Yeah. So as the girls, like, so it's Taylor, Camille, Miranda, and, like, they start doing little TikTok dances and just little bits. Like, Taylor joked around about being their mom because someone said once in a comment, like, she looks like their mom. And so Taylor leans into that, and that's why she's a genius with. With social media. And people started being like, they're starting to get millions of views, by the way, early. And people are like, oh, my gosh, this is their mom. Are those her twin daughters? And they just leaned into that and they joke about it, but every video they posted was getting millions of views. And so as that went on, were

John Dehlin [01:36:05] they monetizing at that point?

Chase McWhorter [01:36:07] At that point, yes. Taylor was Miranda and Camille. Small brand deals, like, people sending them pr. It's kind of the early stages of that, which then again, Just kind of reaffirmed the fact that we're, like, sweet. Like, they get to feel fulfillment from, you know, this. They get makeup sent to them, or they get a clothes, and, like, we get. We're hanging out at work, and these are already our friends, like, love it. And it was.

John Dehlin [01:36:29] And Miranda was one of the first three. Yep. So she was dancing and doing all that stuff.

Chase McWhorter [01:36:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:34] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [01:36:34] Yeah, she was there. And she liked it, too, because her and Camille and, you know, Miranda were friends, or Taylor were friends. As that keeps growing, they start getting very popular, and other moms are reaching out, you know, and they know some of the other moms, and they all. They just kind of get together and they start doing more. More, like, mom talk videos with bigger group. Where, like, Miranda one time, she'd hosted our place during the day. So I'm at work, and I'd see a video of her. Whitney, Macy, Layla, Michaela.

John Dehlin [01:37:04] Do you remember when each of those women joined?

Chase McWhorter [01:37:07] Yeah, yeah. I remember, like, not knowing who they were, but I was like, oh, it's a fun group. Were they cool? And she's like, yeah, we had a blast. Like, this is her. This is her. And I was like, I don't know who any of them are.

John Dehlin [01:37:14] Riverton or. No, no.

Chase McWhorter [01:37:16] Herriman, Herman.

John Dehlin [01:37:17] Yeah, this is all Herman. Are most of these couples and women either in Daybreak or Herriman or a

Chase McWhorter [01:37:23] couple of them are, like, Utah County a little bit more south, but, yeah, for the most part, within 30, 40 minutes of, like, Herriman.

John Dehlin [01:37:30] Okay, interesting.

Chase McWhorter [01:37:31] And, yeah, it's funny because I never, like, really met them prior to the swing scandal because they always do these videos on a weekday when the husbands were working.

John Dehlin [01:37:39] Oh, so, like, all those names you just mentioned, Whitney and. And Jen and a lot of the others.

Chase McWhorter [01:37:45] Not Jen, but, like, some of the other ones. Yeah. Like Michaela, Macy, Layla.

John Dehlin [01:37:50] You met later.

Chase McWhorter [01:37:51] I met later.

John Dehlin [01:37:52] Okay. Okay.

Chase McWhorter [01:37:54] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:54] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:37:54] So a lot of that's happening while you're at work.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:56] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [01:37:56] And I'm like, oh, cool. Miranda's got a bunch of new mom friends.

John Dehlin [01:37:59] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [01:37:59] Thumbs up. Okay. And again, every one of their videos is just blowing up. It was just a content machine. It was foolproof, too. They'd post the videos. Like, damn, they got. Got 2 million views on this one. Like, that's crazy. You know? And all of a sudden they're like, yeah, remember Taylor hit a million followers, and then Miranda, like. And then Taylor had 2 million followers. And we're like, this is nuts.

John Dehlin [01:38:21] And Taylor would get more. Would they all publish on their own? Channels too.

Chase McWhorter [01:38:25] They would. But Taylor was always, like, pro.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:27] The.

Chase McWhorter [01:38:27] The leader, the. The protagonist.

John Dehlin [01:38:29] It. Was Miranda ever like, why is Taylor get more views than me or more subs than me kind of thing?

Chase McWhorter [01:38:33] No, actually, Taylor, Taylor, I think Miranda was very comfortable with her role. Again, just phenomenally mature person without. Basically, without blemish. Miranda's awesome. And so, no, she never was, like, problematic about it. She knew Taylor kind of. Taylor kind of already had a bigger following on Instagram because she used to post matching pictures with her and her daughter. I think they'd get matching clothes, and that was kind of her thing. And so I think she was already, by default, kind of the biggest person on socials, and that just continued. But then Taylor also had different bits that she would do that was really intelligent. Like, she would put up her camera and she would have, like, a fishing line thing, and then she'd do this video about how her house was haunted and how her water would turn on or something would fall over. Those videos would go crazy. So Taylor early on was, like, good at the social media thing.

John Dehlin [01:39:19] She's kind of a social media genius.

Chase McWhorter [01:39:20] Yeah. And then Camille and Miranda and them would just do stuff together, and it built to bigger moms. And then naturally those. As those friendships evolved and they got more friends, we'd start to invite more of those people to, like, cabin parties or a party at Taylor and Tate's house. So our parties grew, and I felt like we met a lot of people through basically, mom talk, literally. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:40] So. And is. Is the cabin parties when things started to go awry?

Chase McWhorter [01:39:44] Yeah, that's when we started to, like, people would bring up alcohol, and we kind of started dabbling in that more. And then I remember, like, we got trashed one time and, like, played spin the bottle, and that kind of became then, like, the norm going forward is like, a little bit more, I guess, promiscuity with that. But it was.

John Dehlin [01:39:59] Didn't have people start developing, like, is it pretty obvious that people just start developing feelings for other people's spouses, basically, or.

Chase McWhorter [01:40:06] No. I feel like there's only probably four or five times period where, like, these cabin parties were like, spin the bottle or anything like that happened at all. Like, it wasn't actually all that consistent because it very quickly reached a point

John Dehlin [01:40:19] where it blew up. Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [01:40:21] So I don't. I don't know. I mean, me and Taylor had a little bit of a thing where there was, I think, I mean, again, people know online about this, but she had said to me at the gym once I Saw her at the gym all the time that she's like, I had a dream about you. And I was like, oh, really? And she's like, yeah, like, what dream? And she's like, you know, what kind of dream? And I was like, oh. So she was kind of hitting, kind of flirty. But then I also texted her once and said the same thing back. And that was when I think that's where things kind of started to get a little muddy. And I was obviously bad spouse and not okay. But then Taylor, I guess, was also. She was kind of texting my other buddy, who they ended up having a little bit of an affair. That's what blew it all up, was,

John Dehlin [01:40:59] oh, it wasn't with you until.

Chase McWhorter [01:41:01] No, it wasn't with me.

John Dehlin [01:41:03] And was Miranda, like, you said, she was chill about the church. Was she chill about you flirting with Taylor?

Chase McWhorter [01:41:10] No, she was not excited about that. And, yeah. Yeah, I was not. Okay. And I was, again, to her credit, I think I was figuring things out a lot in real time. I think it was very stupid, emotionally. And Miranda was on the other side of that spectrum. And so I think that, like, I made a lot of mistakes that kind of poked holes in the trust that she had with me ultimately. And that's kind of why we ended up getting divorced. Was.

John Dehlin [01:41:31] Can I ask you if your faith dissolving left you kind of disoriented and possibly vulnerable to, like, not knowing which way was up? I don't mean to put that into your story, but I see it a lot.

Chase McWhorter [01:41:49] There's validity in the fact that I think deconstructing made me realize, like, made me a little bit overcorrect into maybe a little bit more nihilistic belief where I was like, well, who cares then? Like, if there's not a God that I don't believe in, like, what's the fucking point? And also, like, who cares? Like, there's no longer this morality barometer that I carry with me everywhere. It's more just like, well, you know, and I knew what was right and what was wrong. I knew that it wasn't okay to flirt with Taylor or to do that in any capacity, but I was kind of, you know, easily justifying it by, you know, being like, oh, who cares? And also maybe aided by some drinks in my system. So, yeah, I think that that contributed. I think, ultimately was, obviously, I knew. Knew what was right and what was wrong, and I chose to do the wrong thing. And that affected me in our relationship. But, yeah, I think there was a contribution of, like, well, you know, I've never done this. And also, like, yeah, you know, who cares? You know, I don't longer. I don't believe in that anymore.

John Dehlin [01:42:46] So, I mean, if your morality is rooted in a religious belief system, and then the religious belief system dissolves there. Dissolves for many, the foundation of their morality.

Chase McWhorter [01:42:59] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:43:00] It actually follows quite logically.

Chase McWhorter [01:43:02] And I think that's. And I feel like I. I'm pretty logical. So I feel like that's kind of what happened with me. And again, I knew that I was doing the wrong thing. And. And it was. It was not the right. Not a good. Not a good, like, partner moment for me at all. And it was a betrayal to Miranda. But at the same time, I feel like I was just at the same time questioning, like, why do we get married so young in the temple? Like, thinking that we had to do that in order to, like. Like, do the right thing for us. And I'm questioning, should we have done that? And then rationalizing these really, really careless mistakes by saying, oh, I shouldn't. I actually feel bad for myself because of xyz, which isn't the mature response. And it wasn't fair to Miranda. But also, I feel like there's a little bit of credence to it because,

John Dehlin [01:43:40] yeah, like, a lot of people feel like. Who are in this situation, especially in their 30s or 40s. I feel like I was robbed. Like, I didn't get to have normal dating experiences or whatever.

Samantha Shelley [01:43:53] And you have two kids. Kids by the time this is happening. Yeah. From the way you've told the story, it almost sounds like you and Miranda just seamlessly became parents. But was that intense to have been deconstructing and being like, oh, I already have these kids as well?

Chase McWhorter [01:44:05] Oh, yeah. No, that was. There was a ton of weight to that too, because again, I feel like the guilt complex comes back when you're like, now I'm not only a bad kid or a bad person, but I'm also maybe a bad dad. And then wanting to tell my. I don't think I'm a bad dad, but based on the rules that I'm continually not following, it's hard to argue that I'm not because I. I'm not following the word of wisdom. I'm not technically being the best spouse to Miranda and maybe betraying her in ways that I shouldn't be. I'm also not being honest to my parents. They don't know what I believe and how I act. And I just felt completely to go back to what the theme for Me has been recently out of alignment. I felt from high school.

John Dehlin [01:44:43] You felt that way.

Chase McWhorter [01:44:43] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:44:44] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [01:44:44] And I felt like even when you

John Dehlin [01:44:45] were doing all the things.

Chase McWhorter [01:44:46] Yeah, yeah. And I feel like that is the core reason why I was unhappy was I just, it didn't feel like I was in alignment with what I think is right for me.

John Dehlin [01:44:55] What you had been taught was right for you.

Chase McWhorter [01:44:57] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:44:58] Not what you actually felt was right for you. Totally.

Chase McWhorter [01:45:01] Exactly what I was taught was right. And it was like a scorecard. And so I felt really, really heavy about that. And I feel like it led to some overcorrecting in my behavior, which permeated through after the divorce in the last year and a half with engaging in drinking, maybe more in substances. And that's kind of what led to the, the DUI last summer that I got. So a lot of things that I feel like my theme in my life has always been, I make a mistake. I kind of learn from it, but I, I, I make a lot of mistakes and, you know, I touch the oven. So, you know.

John Dehlin [01:45:35] So was it Taylor? Well, first of all, there's the, the TikTok blow up, but. And then there's your marriage blow up. Talk about which happened when and how.

Chase McWhorter [01:45:46] And they're not as closely correlated as people think. Like, the TikTok blow up happens first. First.

John Dehlin [01:45:53] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [01:45:53] We end up moving back to Idaho.

John Dehlin [01:45:55] Wait, talk after the blow up, you're saying? So talk about the blow up.

Chase McWhorter [01:45:59] Blow up's crazy. It's like national news. I mean, what happened? The Rolling Stones did an article on it. Well, so what happened was Taylor ends up getting caught with our friend, and they're having an affair.

John Dehlin [01:46:12] An actual. So the actual. So the soft swinging thing always comes up. Was that before Taylor gets caught with your friend? Yep.

Chase McWhorter [01:46:19] Probably like the month leading up to that.

John Dehlin [01:46:21] So what, what, what do you want to say about that?

Chase McWhorter [01:46:23] Well, I think we had all been going to these cabin parties, getting trashed, doing things. Like, we're a little bit more gray area for sure, if not crossing over completely to, like, things we knew we shouldn't have been doing as married couples.

Samantha Shelley [01:46:35] But you mean like playing spin the bushel and stuff?

Chase McWhorter [01:46:37] It's basically. Yeah, I mean, no one ever did, I think, like, hooking up with each other, next to each other, not switching, but, like, hammered. Me and Miranda hooking up. Taylor and her ex husband hooking up right there.

John Dehlin [01:46:49] And like, you're saying that did happen?

Chase McWhorter [01:46:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:51] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [01:46:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:52] So y' all would be intimate with your spouse in the presence of other spouses?

Chase McWhorter [01:46:56] Yeah. So, like, stuff like that where it's like, well, we're not, like, cheating, and also spin the bottle. Like, I kissed her, but you also kissed him. So like, very almost juvenile stuff.

Samantha Shelley [01:47:04] Yeah. And it sounds like everyone was consenting to that.

Chase McWhorter [01:47:07] 100%.

Samantha Shelley [01:47:08] Everyone was consenting.

Chase McWhorter [01:47:09] Yeah. Anyone that didn't, and everyone that was there was consenting to being there for sure. But then come to find out, yeah, Taylor and our friend are having an affair. That comes to a head, and it immediately. I think Taylor, who has the biggest platform at this point, I think 2, 3 million followers, she kind of felt, I think, a little jaded because everyone kind of takes a big step back from a really good friend group. And Miranda is her best friend at the time. And I think Miranda's shaken up by it because her other friend, who, not as well, doesn't know her as well as Taylor, but, like, her other friend is the one that Taylor was with her husband. So that's like another friendship that Miranda cares about. And Taylor, I think, just felt like, okay, everyone's blaming me for this, but technically, we're all kind of fooling around, and there's some validity to that. So she goes on TikTok live, and, you know, she basically says, we're all swingers.

John Dehlin [01:48:00] And this other couple, they don't use their name in public. And that's.

Chase McWhorter [01:48:03] No, they don't. They kind of. Kind of lay low.

John Dehlin [01:48:05] Okay, that's fine.

Samantha Shelley [01:48:06] Fine.

Chase McWhorter [01:48:06] And so, yeah, she goes on.

John Dehlin [01:48:08] Was she part of mom talk at the beginning? No. Oh, okay.

Chase McWhorter [01:48:12] She wasn't. She was just kind of a friend that hung out with us.

John Dehlin [01:48:14] Interesting.

Chase McWhorter [01:48:14] Yeah. She didn't really do any of the TikToks.

John Dehlin [01:48:16] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [01:48:17] And.

Samantha Shelley [01:48:17] And Taylor did that live after people had found out that she'd cheated.

Chase McWhorter [01:48:22] Yep.

Samantha Shelley [01:48:23] Which to me, is so different from the swinging thing. Like, those are two completely separate.

Chase McWhorter [01:48:27] Well, I would agree with you, but what me and Miranda's reaction to that was really. What did us in? Where? I was at work with my boss, who's a friend of ours that used to hang out with us too, and came to some of these cabin parties. And we're at lunch at an Indian restaurant, and I see this live pop up, and I'm getting texts, and I pull up Taylor's live, and I'm like, holy. We just. Oh, my God, swingers. And all of a sudden, I get text message. Text message. My boss is like, you need to go home, be with Miranda. Because I don't. He knows Taylor really well. I go home, and Miranda's Crying. She's like, I don't want my parents to think I'm a swinger, because we don't feel like we are.

John Dehlin [01:48:59] So y' all hadn't, for example, had intercourse with other people?

Chase McWhorter [01:49:03] Nothing.

John Dehlin [01:49:04] See, that's. Then, yeah, that label would be horrific and untrue.

Chase McWhorter [01:49:07] And that's why we go on a live, right, like, an hour later, and we're like, we didn't. We're not involved, because in our minds, we're like, the people that are involved in this that actually kind of, like, swapped are the couples that are in, like, they got caught, you know, Taylor and. And the guy and. But then Taylor, like, the online reception, to me and Miranda saying, like, we're not involved was like, oh, we're not. We have nothing to do with this. And then Taylor's rebuttal is like, well, you guys playing spin the bottle? You're doing that. And we're like, okay, well, yeah, so we should have been a little bit better about, like, we have done this to this point. We have not switched.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:40] But I hate that you were even in a position where you had to be, like, sharing your, like, private sexual stuff.

Chase McWhorter [01:49:45] That's what we felt like.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:46] We're like, the implication that it was just inherently bad that anyone did anything, even though it was consensual.

Chase McWhorter [01:49:51] But in therein lies the what I think so interesting about, you know, Utah in general, because I think in any other situation a lot of times, or, like, Mormonism in general, like, this isn't such a huge story. And that's why we in Miranda were like, we have to defend ourselves. We're not PR trained. You know, this is just like, a side thing that Miranda does when I'm at work. And so we're like, we're not swingers. And then Taylor, who, again, I understand her side, which is like, everything's falling apart. I'm actually like, we're all a part of this because we've been doing this. And, yeah, you can argue, like, the terms, but, like, I understand her side, and I empathize with it because she was going through a lot. But that's why people hated us for a while, because they're like, liars, liars. Like, you guys lied about that. And Chase had feelings for Taylor, and now they're lying and they're running away, and we're like, ugh. So online was rough for, like, a year and a half. Miranda was. Was crippled with anxiety. Felt like she got strung out as somebody that she wasn't. And I was the one that I was like, I shouldn't have flirted with Taylor. That was stupid. I was kind of the one that was like, yeah, we should go to these, like, drink and not, like, spin the bottle. Like, I'm the one pushing that more than her. And so I felt a ton of guilt for myself because I'm like, look at this now. Miranda, who's, by the way, the best person I've ever been around, is getting strung out as a liar and a fraud, and she's no longer getting brand deals for a time because no one wants to associate with that. And I feel like it's kind of my fault. And so there's a lot of guilt. A lot of guilt. That was the last year, year and a half of our marriage, you know? And I have a question.

Aftermath, Divorce, and Personal Reflection

John Dehlin [01:51:17] Thank you for being so vulnerable, by the way. And I'm sure you've told the story a gazillion times, so thanks for telling it here. And this question is going to sound accusatory, but it's not. Because I think I can get what you may have been feeling on some level, but what's it? But smoking, beautiful wife who's super wise and cool, explain to people why you would even have interest in somebody else. And that's not accusatory.

Chase McWhorter [01:51:46] Yeah, no, no, you're right, because Miranda is all of those things. And yet I still felt like I was interested in dabbling in stuff like that, like drinking. And I thought that sounded fun. Like, spin the bottle. Like, that's kind of funny. I think it's just because I had. If I wasn't raised in a very big Orthodox home, I do think that I would have been someone that went to, like, college and lived a more traditional college lifestyle, and maybe afterwards would have not been married, and I would have probably whatever these things. Like, I felt like I needed to check off or experiment with or experience, because I just said 10, you know, 20 minutes ago. I think that life is a collection of experiences, and I actually want to run the gamut of that in here while I'm here. I don't want to just always be on the right side of everything. I actually really value the times that I feel like I've done the wrong thing because I learn from it intimately and enough that I can actually tell people, like, let me give you firsthand why I don't think you should do that, because I've done it. And so for me, it was like, yeah, Miranda is. Check every box in the book. She's not only beautiful and an incredible person, but she's also, like, the best mom I've ever met. And I'll get emotional talking about it, because she is truly that. And yet I still had a proclivity to wanting to be around things that I just never felt like I was able to. And I do think that that has a religious tie.

John Dehlin [01:53:03] So what's revealing to me, like, just the Persona of the episodes I've seen you in. The impression I would have taken away would have been like, he was a bad boy. He was never really Mormon to begin with, probably didn't serve a mission, probably had a rough childhood, not really raised in the church, and so he went crazy. But you weren't a cool bad boy. You were a good Mormon boy who was trying your best to make Mormonism work. Totally. I mean, you were living the gosp for as long as you felt like you could.

Chase McWhorter [01:53:34] Yeah. Never drink till I was 25. Miranda was my first. Like, I, I, I feel like, yeah, the bad boy label, I feel like, has been something that I've, like, my parents thought I was a bad boy, and I'm like, in high school, I feel like I didn't do anything, like, to, to check that box. So, yeah, I feel like it was truly an innate desire for me to, like, experience things that I hadn't experienced because I got married to Miranda so young. And it wasn't ever a knock on her ever a. A reflection of who she was or wasn't. It was way more me. Just, like, this is kind of who I am. And this is actually sounds weird to say in alignment when you're, like, talking about basically cheating or whatever, but I feel like it's just experiencing things so that I can end up learning who I am is something that I needed to do. And in a marriage to Miranda, especially one that was founded in, like, our shared Mormon belief, like, that just simply wasn't something that I was ever gonna.

John Dehlin [01:54:25] Well, this is something that we'll talk about at the end. But, like, one of the things I'm always thinking about is how bad people on some of these reality TV shows come off. And then I'm wondering, are these people just all lame, or is reality TV making them all look lame? Or is it some people are cool, but it just makes them look lame, and some are actually lame, and maybe it makes them look cool. Like, I'm always wondering, what are these people really like? And that's the thing I love most on episodes is, like, getting to know you. It's number one. It brings in the multiple dimensions of your life story. But I find you super thoughtful and sincere and relatable and smart. And I'm a little bit. And maybe none of the other people on Secret Lives are actually that way, but I probably think they. Many of them are.

Chase McWhorter [01:55:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:22] But I'm. Do you think about how frustrating it is about how y' all often appear versus the depth and the complexity and the humanity of your actual lived experiences?

Samantha Shelley [01:55:35] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:55:36] No.

Chase McWhorter [01:55:36] I'm actually. That's something I'm really grateful for. I mean, my attachment to the show is one that's unique because I'm obviously a back. I. I always joke. I'm a background dancer. I'm Miranda's baby daddy. The girls are the stars of the show. What I'm grateful for that the show has given me in my limited episodes and involvement is I've always felt like self expression is so important to me. I'm gonna get start crying. And I felt like it's. So much of who I am is exhibited in what I wear. I have my finger. I love painting my fingernails. And I never did because I remember I just. I did once years ago, and I got ripped for it. And I was like, that's embarrassing. But the show has actually given me, I think, a little bit more. People are a little bit more interested in, like, okay, explain that, because I do think that I understand the bad boy label that you get if you first meet me or you first have heard about what happened. And I do kind of fit and align with that. But I'm also like, dude, that's actually not who I think I am. And I think that self expression is so important to me for whatever reason. And I do think that the church. What's the tough about that is I don't feel like I could ever really fully express myself in ways that I really enjoy expressing myself now, which is I do like to go out and I like to hang out with my friends. And if that involves a little bit of drinking, I absolutely love that. And I don't think that there's a way that I've done that where it's not healthy, it's too much, and I got a DUI to show for it. But I do like to. I like to do what I like to do. And a lot of that stuff doesn't align with what the church says you're supposed to. And so when I departed from that, it took a while. But now I think I'm at a point in my life where I'm like, you know what? I don't really do anything anymore that I Don't feel like I want to. And I feel like the show has given me a little bit of an ability to do that, because they do look at you as a character on that. And I do think that sometimes people play into that a little bit too much, maybe. But I feel like I am actually a character. I think at my core, I like to think of myself as a character. And if I. If I live my life in a way that, like, I'm just a character, it actually helps me rationalize some of the things I feel like I've done that have hurt Miranda. Like, because that is to the. To today, like, one of the. My biggest regrets is, like, marrying who I know Miranda is, and I know her and, like, kind of not living up to the things I promised her when we got married. And even though I don't think that we got married at a time when you're emotionally able to say that, or at least I wasn't, and make those promises, like, I regret hurting her. I'm also very grateful that we got married, though, because we wouldn't have our kids. And those are my. Those are the best parts about me and best parts about her. And she'd say the same. But I feel like all of this stuff that's happened, the Taylor Paul Live, you know, the swinging scandal, the divorce, the dui, I feel like it's just actually peeled back the curtain on, like, this is more of a complex individual than just a bad boy that likes to fucking make everyone's life terrible. It's like, actually just someone who has experienced a lot of things that he wishes maybe would have gone differently. But I can now tell you, you, like, I wish I wouldn't have done that. And I'll fall on the sword for everything I've done incorrectly, and I'll continue to do that. But I also am grateful that I've been able to, because no one now, like, everyone that talks to me or I come on a podcast, like, they're co signing the fact that I've done a lot of dumb things. And I'll tell you exactly about it. I'm not hiding from it. But I also love that now, like, people resonate with that because I think everyone kind of wants to be able to do that too.

John Dehlin [01:58:58] To be authentic.

Chase McWhorter [01:58:59] Yeah, be authentic, be in alignment. That's like the best, best part of this is all like, as I feel like people now like, you wearing a pink shirt, dude. That's got actually, it's got bedazzled. Like, that's so weird to do at 30 with kids. And I'm like, yeah, you know, it's also weird to do what everyone else does. And I am out on that because I did that for so long and it never worked for me. So, you know, we talk about all these things and people sometimes are like, I feel so bad for you guys or whatever. And I'm like, dude, it was rough when it happened, but thank God it happened because burned it all to the ground. And I felt like I was able to build something that wasn't a house of cards.

John Dehlin [01:59:38] Holy moly, that was beautiful.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:40] I feel like Mormon or not, so many people don't accept that chaos can be such a useful change maker.

John Dehlin [01:59:49] Creative.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:50] And yeah, like, I think people just have this, this fantasy notion that you can somehow get more in alignment with yourself by staying perfectly within all the rules that you've constructed for yourself or whatever. And I just don't think that's realistic. And I think it can be like psychologically healthier for people to like wild out a little bit or a lot, to like figure out what's actually true for them than to stay contained and to just try and do these like really tiny things that might like teach them something, but realistically we'll never get them then.

Chase McWhorter [02:00:25] I actually, I think a huge part of it. And this is not even related to Mormonism. I think it's on the outside too. But I just think that like, I resent the idea that people think that progress is linear. Yeah, I'd actually argue that it's not. I think it's really not. I think it's like progress is the opposite of linear. In fact, I think you should burn it down a few times in order to like really figure out where you're at. And I just don't know that many people that like operate off of the progress is linear thing that I think are very real or very authentic or maybe even very happy. So I do. And again, I'm not gonna say that as an absolute. Cause I hate when people talk in absolutes. But I just think generally speaking, you're supposed to be different than you were five years ago, 10 years ago, one year ago. And that doesn't mean make a bunch of mistakes and just say fuck it. That's cause you know, I'm supposed to do that. I don't think that's necessarily the right way to go about it. But I do think that you should be shedding an old version of yourself pretty frequently if you want to evolve. And I hope that means that in two years I'm Way different than I am now. And the idea that you should have a five, 10 year plan, I've always laughed at that idea because I'm like, dude, how the hell do you think you know what's going to be happening in that. Like, that, like, that amount of time? So, again, I. Again, I. People are different than me. And I sometimes wish I was a little bit more. I felt like I relate more with, like, the masses, especially in Utah. But also I feel like now, instead of feeling bad about that, the show has given me the ability to, like, say. That's actually kind of my strength is I don't think I fit the mold. And I'm from Rexburg. Like, I. People. I tell people that, and they're, like, baffled. I'm like, hell, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:01:55] I thought California, for sure.

Chase McWhorter [02:01:57] And I love that. Like, I love that because I feel like it shows a little bit more, you know, Rexburg. You can be from Rexburg and still be way different, you know? And I do take, like, I take that as a compliment, despite having made a lot of poor decisions.

John Dehlin [02:02:11] So, first of all, that was beautiful. And the audience, everyone who's tuning in live, are loving it. Let me just say really quickly, please subscribe to the channel if you can. That would be great. And like, this episode and share it. I won't say anything more, but that'd be great if y' all could do that. So your divorce for Miranda, how much was it? Taylor flirting with Taylor, plus just all the stress from the Internet meltdown versus other stuff that we haven't even talked about. Whatever you want to talk about.

Chase McWhorter [02:02:46] Taylor and Tate, the whole swinger thing, maybe 10, 20% of the reason we got divorced, it was other offenses to breaking Miranda's trust in me, I think. Yeah, like, little things, like getting caught messaging someone more than I should have. And I don't think I handle a lot of situations great when it comes to, like, escalation. I think that that's something that I've worked on, just anger, anger. And I think that, like, yeah, I've found someone that I love to go to that Miranda actually recommended. Shout out to her. Her name's Sam. For, like. Like, it's like a Reiki therapy, like, energy thing. It's really helped me kind of dive into, like, hey, when you escalate, like, these are the. This is what you. This is how you kind of slow that down. Because again, again, every single time something that I'm good at is when I do get angry or we have an argument, which doesn't happen that frequently anymore at all actually is. I'll say sorry really fast because I do feel really, really bad anytime. I feel like it goes to a point that I think is too far. But yeah, no, we got divorced because I wasn't a great spouse to Miranda multiple times. And Miranda, to her credit, she's been on a podcast and talked about this. She knows her self worth and I think that she knows that she's like, I could stick around and figure out, like, wait for Chase to figure it out, but I also don't need to. And I also, like, can still advocate for him to do that because he's my baby daddy and like, we're always going to be cordial and we've always. We're really good friends now. But she knows that if she wants to be in a committed relationship with someone, she deserves the level of commitment that she was giving. And I wasn't doing that. And so, yeah, she's the one that pulled the plug after, like, we discussed it a few times. How many years? Seven.

John Dehlin [02:04:31] Seven years. Two kids.

Chase McWhorter [02:04:32] Seven years, two kids.

John Dehlin [02:04:34] And were you like, did you feel a sense of relief and freedom or were you devastated or both?

Chase McWhorter [02:04:39] I think I was like kind of the classic, like, when you get broken up with, you know, you're like, no, I don't want this to happen. And I was really, I was sad because it's, you know, you're. I had to tell, you know, my parents who had just been on divorced about a year previous and they had terrible divorce, they hate each other. So it was just like a lot. I was the only one that was married at the time. So my siblings now, who I felt like my whole life, I need to be the example. I'm like, well, sorry about mom and dad. I'm also getting divorced. I feel like I'm putting them in a tough spot with the optic of what marriage is supposed to be. I also feel like the idea that everyone, anyone has a marriage that's supposed to be is kind of silly because it's like everyone struggles. But I for sure wasn't the handbook, I shouldn't write the handbook on how to be married married. There was a lot of guilt and a lot again of just like more so shame and guilt that I felt because I knew I was the main and basically sole contributor to the failed marriage.

John Dehlin [02:05:34] But did you. Was there maybe a part of you that didn't ever really want to be a faithful orthodox Mormon, didn't want to be married?

Chase McWhorter [02:05:41] I think part of me was like, I do think that In. In order for me to be a good partner eventually down the line. Cause I think companionship is the goal. I think in order for me to do that, I have to actually probably break away from this.

John Dehlin [02:05:54] So you needed to go on this journey maybe?

Chase McWhorter [02:05:56] Yeah, I think so. And I try to look at it that way, where it's like, everything happens for a reason. And I kind of knew innately, like, I'm not gonna be the partner that Miranda needs as currently constituted. There's a lot of growth that needs to happen, a lot of reflection, a lot of work, and that's not gonna happen at the hands of being married to her and her feeling like she's always dragging me along in this marriage. Yeah, I feel like it was rough for a sec, but I think pretty quickly, I think something that we should all do, guys, especially on this show, Secret Lives, is like, just be humble enough to realize that you're married. And despite what you think the man and woman role in marriage is, first of all, I don't agree with that at all. I think it should actually be reversed if you really want to talk about it, in my opinion, on it. But. But be humble enough to realize that you're married to someone who. I think women, for the most part on the show, too, is, like, they're a rock star. And Miranda more so than probably anyone, I think. But I was able to. I think I looked in the mirror pretty quick. Instead of blaming Miranda or blaming, like, oh, you quit or you broke up this family, kind of realized, like, all right, no, it's my fault. I need to work on this. I want to be a great, like, co parent. And I said that once, I think on Haley Rawl, I was just like, I wasn't the greatest partner, but I can really work hard at being the best co parent. And that can be a consolation prize that I'm excited about. And I'm still making strides in that there's things I can do better. But I do take a lot of pride in trying to be, like, the best co parent, because everyone's getting divorced, you know, at least.

John Dehlin [02:07:30] Well, not on the show. Well, it looks like it can't spill, but we'll get there. My daughter Claire helped me prepare some of these questions. So that was one of the things she asked is, how do y' all co parent?

Chase McWhorter [02:07:44] Well, we kind of do our own thing, man. There's not even a custody schedule. We just operate off, like, what do you need for me today? What do you need for me today? And Miranda's got a Busy schedule right now, filming. And she's got some things in the works that I'm really excited about her being able to share. But like, this last week, she was in Nashville for the week, and so I had the kiddos. And she's less. She's less inclined to want to go out on a weekend. And so on weekends, I typically can go out because she's hanging out with the half hour and doing her thing. We don't really have a playbook. We just, like, I respect Miranda and I do love her in a way that's like, I want to be the best version of myself for you so that you don't have to have any more stress added to your life by way of your relationship that ended. Because I already feel like I again caused Miranda enough strife in our marriage and having that go the way it went. So we don't.

Samantha Shelley [02:08:33] I don't.

Chase McWhorter [02:08:33] We literally just. Like, I text Miranda most of the day, like, what do you need for me tomorrow? What's your schedule?

Samantha Shelley [02:08:37] Like?

Chase McWhorter [02:08:37] I want to.

Life After Miranda and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [02:08:38] Kiddos, do you have a day job?

Chase McWhorter [02:08:40] Not anymore.

John Dehlin [02:08:41] So how do you make ends meet? You don't have to answer.

Chase McWhorter [02:08:44] But, no, I mean, I actually in November, left my sales job 9 to 5. I did that for basically ever. And now I'm operating purely off of social media. I have a manager and. Yeah, so.

John Dehlin [02:08:57] So with. With like, TikTok and Instagram mostly. Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [02:09:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:01] You're able to make ends meet for.

Chase McWhorter [02:09:03] Yeah, like, brand deals and stuff. It's kind of funny and kind of cringy to say that, but, like, that's true. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:08] That's not cringy.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:09] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [02:09:09] I mean, it's. Yeah, it's like, you know, I kind of always joke around. Like, I do check a lot of red flag boxes, like, operation, like, you know, you talk about, like, from the outside, like, doesn't have a job, 30 years old, been divorced, painted fingernails. I'm like, yeah, if you're doing social

John Dehlin [02:09:23] media, getting brand deals, I think that counts as a no. Yeah, you're right.

Chase McWhorter [02:09:27] I mean, technically, I do have a job.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:29] It has a job these days.

Chase McWhorter [02:09:30] It runs. That's why I tell people I'm trying to join mom talk, though, because I kind of. I'm trying to do what those. Those girls crush it and what they do. I'm not anywhere near as. As. As big as them, but I mean, yeah, that's my job right now is monetizing social media.

John Dehlin [02:09:42] Okay, so you have your own source of income from social media. Yes. And then you. You're kind Of, I don't want to say Mr. Mom, but you take care of the kids whenever she needs you to, to in a really flexible way. And y' all just amicably support each other. I mean, that, that man, I wonder especially because you have such warm feelings towards her and I imagine she loves you on several levels too. Is that confusing? To be on such good terms and to be co parenting? I think it's like, that would be funny. Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [02:10:17] People ask that all the time. And I think it's fun. I picked up Miranda from the airport today and, you know, just drove home and I think it's maybe. Yeah. I think some people are always like, you guys are for sure, like, hooking up, right? I'm like, dude, no. I would tell people if I was. I would be bragging about it if I was. I do occasionally tease Miranda and like, hey, should I sleep over? And she's like, no, leave. But no. I don't know, man. I think it's like, I think that most of it, I think that me and Miranda know, like, I operate with her so well as a co parent. And I think towards the end of our marriage, we did argue a lot. And I think that, like, I love the fact and I really value the fact that we have such a good relationship because I actually think what's funny, I do like to be friends and I have an ex girlfriend who I'm really good friends with still. And I think that's came up in a podcast before. Like, why? I'm like, because I feel like if you like someone enough to date them, much less marry them, and then it breaks up. Like, I don't want to remove myself from that person's orbit because I love them enough to get married to them. Like, that's one of the few people on the planet that I can say that about, and it's the only person I can say that about. So why would I want to completely remove myself? And there's the kid tie that makes it obvious, like, you have to be in their life. So, like, why not make it like a good time? Like, I, I wanna, like, I'm always in Miranda's comments like, like, and it's, it's, it's like a bit kind of like joking about how much I want her back. And it's funny. And I, by the way, I do love her. Like, I mean that.

John Dehlin [02:11:38] But, like, if she's like, chase, I want you back, would you. Do you think you'd go?

Chase McWhorter [02:11:41] Or do you probably. Yeah,

Samantha Shelley [02:11:44] if she wanted me to. I be Like, Yep.

Chase McWhorter [02:11:46] No, I mean, I don't know. That's like a funny. I always joke about that with her, but I always. I always joke, too. Like, if we have, like, one more kid, like, platonic third could be funny because we. Our kids are so cute and. And. But no, I think it's really unique.

John Dehlin [02:12:00] Does she have a. Like, a significant other?

Chase McWhorter [02:12:02] No, she doesn't. She's single right now, so I'm definitely trying to shoot my shot. Yes, I'm also single. No, I think we're really just really, really good friends. I think it's cool that we've been able to. To have this approach to it. And our kids truly, like. I don't even think they understand the word divorce yet. I don't think they really maybe even know. They know that dad lives in a house over here and mom lives in a house over here.

John Dehlin [02:12:22] Ariel pretty close to each other.

Chase McWhorter [02:12:24] Yeah. We're like 10 minutes. And so. Yeah, I think it's an interesting approach. It for sure, isn't the traditional approach, but I also love that because nothing about. I think me, for the most part, feels traditional.

John Dehlin [02:12:36] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [02:12:37] I love it so much.

John Dehlin [02:12:38] Did either of you have a reckoning with your faithful family about just leaving the church?

Chase McWhorter [02:12:45] Miranda did.

John Dehlin [02:12:46] I mean, you don't have to tell her story unless you feel like she's okay.

Chase McWhorter [02:12:49] Well, and I'll tell parts of it, I guess, relate to me. But, like, my. I told my parents once I removed my name. I told my mom, told my dad separately because they were divorced. And I tried to approach it with respect because I know that they care deeply about that. And they also. I know that they raised me not to force that upon me, but they thought it was the best way to do it, and I respect them for doing that. Miranda's. Yeah. Her parents obviously love the church, and her sisters are all very active.

John Dehlin [02:13:18] All of them?

Chase McWhorter [02:13:19] All of them, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:20] Have they appeared on the show?

Chase McWhorter [02:13:22] No. Nor would they.

John Dehlin [02:13:24] Oh, really?

Chase McWhorter [02:13:25] No, I don't think so. And they weren't super supportive of her actually going on the show initially, but now they are. So good job to them for coming around to the obvious, which is that she's a star. But I think, yeah, it was rough. And I was actually, while we were still married, was when she kind of took her. It was like a year after me, but is when she kind of was, like, a little bit more vocal about. There was like a trip or something where they were gonna go to a temple. I don't remember someone's wedding. And she was like, I'm not going to the. I'm not gonna go. This is why. And it was hard, but, you know, she's got to a place now where I think they have a great relationship about it. And as I do with my parents and my relationship with the church, she's never trying to change her parents mind, nor am I trying to change mine. But I'm also like, pretty, pretty firm in what I believe and what I don't believe. And she is as well.

John Dehlin [02:14:15] I love it. Okay. Okay. Maybe it's time to dive into actual show stuff. Is that okay?

Discussing Season Four Cast and Relationships

Samantha Shelley [02:14:22] Yeah, we've already been starting to, so.

John Dehlin [02:14:24] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So are you allowed to talk about your, your impressions of people and, or relationships, other fellow show members or whatever, or do you try not to do that? And I'm not saying, like, I can

Chase McWhorter [02:14:40] tell you how I feel about people. I think, I don't think there's any issue with that. I mean.

John Dehlin [02:14:44] So can I just ask some of my questions and you too, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [02:14:47] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:14:48] So obviously the relationship between Taylor and Dakota. Dakota just feels obviously incredibly cyclically toxic. On the one hand, I just feel really sad for both of them that they're just hurting each other. And then that makes me feel angry at the show. Like it's the show that's making them be in this bound toxic relationship. On the other hand, they're probably making a ton of money and getting a lot of fame and status from it. So I don't know whether to feel sorry for them or to feel like they're wanting it and asking for it, or are they kind of playing it up and making it up, or is it truly tragic? And if it's truly tragic, then we're all maybe complicit in nurturing and feeding a really unhealthy narrative, not to mention the kids, kid or kids that are involved. So like, are you even able to go there in your own brain?

Chase McWhorter [02:15:56] Yeah, I feel 100. I, I actually. And having a, having a relationship with, having known Taylor now for eight years and seen her, you know, from her early stages, earlier stages of her first marriage to the divorce, to, you know, obviously dating Dakota and kind of how that's gone, I do like, like, I love Taylor in that I love how she is such a. She's always been very real about her struggles and her, you know, her shortcomings. And so I remembered meeting Dakota, who I didn't know super well until we went to the Vanderpump villa this last summer. And I got to spend four days with him.

John Dehlin [02:16:39] So he was Never a part of that early scene.

Chase McWhorter [02:16:41] Nope.

John Dehlin [02:16:42] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [02:16:42] Didn't know him at all, despite the fact that he's also from Idaho. He's from Middleton, so he's far away from where I'm from. But having people got. I got slack for this, for saying this on the last season, but, like, I, like. Dakota is one of the funniest people. I love hanging out with Dakota. He's a great hang, and I think he's a great person. And he's overcome substance abuse and an addiction to, like, hard drugs, and I think that's on a very, very. It's a very impressive feat. I know he cares a lot about his son, and I know he cares a lot about Taylor, and it is tragic because I know them both, and I know how much they do love each other. But I also do know how toxic it is, and it's a bummer to watch because having been with both of them on a bunch of occasions, I truly like both of them as people, and I wish they could make it work because I think they'd be the most fun couple if they could somehow navigate through all of the toxic cycles that have happened. I just don't think it's an. The cards. And I, I. I actually told him in Vanderpump, Phil. I was like, dude, you guys are. You guys are endgame. Like, I'm pretty sure you guys are endgame. What. What sucks is that, like, it keeps happening. The toxicity.

John Dehlin [02:17:51] Is that the show's fault?

Chase McWhorter [02:17:53] No, it's not. I mean it. The show definitely, definitely exacerbates the issue. I would. I would for sure agree with that. But I also think that something like, a little insight into Taylor. I remember back in, like, 2019, one of our door dash nights, we were sitting there, sober as a clam, having, you know, a chat. Me, Tate, Taylor, and Miranda, and. And we were talking about our dreams and aspirations and goals. And I remember asking, you know, Taylor's turn came up. Mine was like, oh, I want to play in the NFL or whatever. It's obviously not happening anymore. But Taylor was like, I want to be on tv. I want to be on tv. Or, like, on a show. I was always like, really? That's such an interesting dream. Like, I never thought about that. And then she accomplishes it. And so she's, in a way, like, I think she deserves credit for chasing a dream and reaching it. And now she's the protagonist in two different shows, shows that are coming out, you know, and within, like, two weeks of each other. But that being said, wait Secret lives.

John Dehlin [02:18:46] Secret lives.

Chase McWhorter [02:18:46] And Bachelorette.

John Dehlin [02:18:47] Bachelorette. Okay.

Chase McWhorter [02:18:48] But that being said, I think Taylor's strength is also her weakness, where she got famous for being, like, pretty raw, pretty real, and, like, maybe even a little bit unhinged with the TikTok live and being, like, someone that will call out any sort of crazy behavior or, like, toxicity or. I'll tell you how it is. Like, that's her whole Persona years ago. And I feel like now Taylor wants badly to be at a place where she doesn't have, like, that's not really her thing anymore. And she wants. I think she wants a stable relationship. I think that she loves Dakota in a way that she's never really loved someone before. And I think that's probably really scary because there's so many emotions that he evokes with her. But it's sad because at the core, I see two people that love each other, and on the exterior, what you see is massive amounts of toxicity. And it's. It's, you know, it's bilateral. It happens on both sides.

John Dehlin [02:19:36] You're seeing that track. Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:37] I'm feeling so validated by this because that's been my opinion from watching the season. I liked Dakota this season, and I feel like Taylor just has such strong attachment wounds and they're not able to, like, get past that. But they do seem like they really love each other.

Chase McWhorter [02:19:52] Yeah. And I don't care if this makes me in trouble because, like, I love both of them and they're both really good people with just really. They're wounded. And I think that's part of the reason why it's such good TV is because it's, like, obviously it's painful to watch, and it's.

John Dehlin [02:20:08] I mean, I think, you know, I'm all. Every season, I'm like, I'm not going to watch this season.

Chase McWhorter [02:20:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:13] And then because I run Mormon stories, eventually something makes pretty adjacent. I feel like Al Pacino pulls me back in. You know, Godfather 3.

Chase McWhorter [02:20:22] Yeah. That's a black hole.

John Dehlin [02:20:23] But. But, like, then when I watch it and I'm like, yes, it's absurd. Yes, it's ridiculous. Sometimes it feels barely Mormon, but I always feel like there are real humans behind the characters and real human dynamics that are on display for all of our weird benefit.

Chase McWhorter [02:20:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:44] You know, Totally.

Chase McWhorter [02:20:44] And I feel like actually, like, people that push back on, like, this isn't how Mormons are. And I'm like, it's not really doctrinally how Mormons are, that's for sure. But it's sure it will Give you a very, very, I think, realistic and current perspective into modern Mormonism within, like, Utah. Like, I think that's actually exactly how it is. Having experience.

John Dehlin [02:21:03] Let's have millennial and genealogy.

Chase McWhorter [02:21:04] Millennial and genealogy, where it's like, this isn't the idea, but it's also the culture. And I think that permeates throughout the show and the theme.

John Dehlin [02:21:13] Yeah. Whether it's divorce or psychedelics or experimenting with non monogamy or losing your faith or, you know, appearance stuff. Like, what's not Mormon about all that stuff these days? Right?

Chase McWhorter [02:21:28] Yeah, it's totally. It's a collision course of real, real everyday people that have believed in a. Maybe an orthodox religion, a high demand religion that are now coming to a reckoning of like, do I anymore? And how do I confront this celebrity lifestyle that girls have in real time juxtaposed to being Mormon, you know, or being barely Mormon, or being post Mormon or exploring.

John Dehlin [02:21:51] Yeah, yeah. And I'll swear a tiny bit here, but when. When Taylor talks about Dakota as a fuckboy or whatever, what I hear you saying is that's not really how she. That's not the totality of how she views it. Because part of me feels like he's saying, yes, I was unfaithful. It reminds me a tiny bit of you. I don't know, maybe y'. All. I don't know if you feel. Relate a little bit to him. Totally. But he's kind of saying, yes, I wasn't always faithful, but I do love you and I want to try and make this work. That's what I'm hearing when I see Dakota.

Chase McWhorter [02:22:25] Yeah. And I think Dakota too. And I would tell him this to his face because I have. I'm like, dude, there are parts of your personality when it comes to, like, Dakota is a charming dude. Like, I've been out with him. Like, people like Dakota, girls like Dakota. And so his.

John Dehlin [02:22:39] He seems. Is he tall?

Chase McWhorter [02:22:40] Yeah, he's kind of like my height. I think he's 6, 2. He's not as tall as you. I'm not as tall as you. But like, he's. When we're out and about, like, you talk to Dakota, you will like Dakota. I promise. I promise you'll like him and the people that hate him on the show. Cool. You talk to him in person. He'd get a picture with you. He'd ask you how your day's going. He'd ask you something about, like, the person you're with. He's the most charismatic dude. He's a really Good guy. And that being said, him and Taylor, they do have like a relationship that brings out the worst in them. And the worst of Dakota is a bad person. The worst of me is a bad person. And if you want to highlight that and that's, that's who you always think of someone. Like, you'll find that with anyone. And I, that's part of my, my, I try to tell Mikayla once in the show. I'm like, I, I, if you want to measure me by the worst I've done, like, you'll, you're right, I'm a bad guy. But like, you can also look at the different, you know, a different lens every now and then if you want. And I try to do that with Dakota because I want in turn for people to do that with me.

John Dehlin [02:23:32] That's beautiful. Did you have questions about Taylor, Dakota, or are you good?

Samantha Shelley [02:23:35] No.

John Dehlin [02:23:36] Okay. Okay. I've got my little cheat sheet here. Hell yeah. Cause there's so many freaking names and sometimes they all look different and sometimes they all look alike. So Whitney, Connor. Whitney's obviously having a moment with Dancing with the Stars. She seems just incredibly talented. Just incredibly talented. And it seems like she's trying to pivot her Persona this season to be less of the drama queen bad girl villain, to be more wise, to be more listening to kind of rise above the drama of it all and really to take her career to the next level, probably beyond Secret Lives. And on some sense, I'm kind of cheering her on. I'm like, I don't want you to be a villain and I want to see you succeed. And if that means moving beyond the crazy silliness, then if that's what you want, good for you. What are your impressions?

Chase McWhorter [02:24:36] Whitney is the most in alignment person on the show.

John Dehlin [02:24:38] Really.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:39] I've said it since season one.

Chase McWhorter [02:24:41] Whitney is literally doing what she was put on the planet to do now, which is be in the arts and be on Broadway. That is exactly where she's supposed to be. And I think what's funny is you can watch it in real time this season where it's almost, it's taxing for her to act like she has to care about all the stuff back here that got her to where she is. Which, by the way, it was awesome that, that, that was the springboard to get her to where she's going to be. But we would all be remiss to wish anyone out of their own alignment. Whitney is exactly where she's supposed to be. And Connor is the goal for like supportive husbands. And those two should be a lesson to everyone. Like, that you chase your dreams, and then as soon as you get there, never apologize. Because anyone that's upset about it is out of their own alignment.

John Dehlin [02:25:28] Do you sense they. I mean, they seem just, like, joined at the hip.

Chase McWhorter [02:25:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:33] Totally supportive and getting along.

Chase McWhorter [02:25:36] They seem whimsical. They seem happy. And it's because they're doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing. And I think that is, like, reverberates throughout their entire being.

John Dehlin [02:25:45] So there's a little bit. I don't know if it was in the first season about Connor. Connor, right.

Chase McWhorter [02:25:50] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:25:50] Maybe having feelings that were different than normal heterosexual kind of feelings. Like. And you don't have to say anything about that. I don't even. Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [02:26:01] Like, I think that was, like. I think that a little bit. What happened that. I think there was, like, a Tinder thing.

John Dehlin [02:26:05] Yeah. Or I heard it was Grindr.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:07] I feel like.

Chase McWhorter [02:26:07] I think that was. That was so. That was actually. I think just. That was completely untrue. I think that I've seen that too. But, like, I think it's okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:15] Oh, okay. So that's a. That's a falsehood. Totally. I'm glad I asked.

Chase McWhorter [02:26:19] No.

John Dehlin [02:26:19] Yeah. I don't care what people do.

Chase McWhorter [02:26:22] I know you don't.

John Dehlin [02:26:22] Yeah, totally.

Chase McWhorter [02:26:23] And I'm glad you asked, too, because that is a misconception.

John Dehlin [02:26:25] Oh, wow.

Chase McWhorter [02:26:26] Where it's like, Connor will lay on the sword for what he. What he did wrong.

John Dehlin [02:26:28] Why you say that?

Samantha Shelley [02:26:29] Just because we've done, like, three seasons of commentary.

John Dehlin [02:26:32] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [02:26:32] No, but I've also had a hundred people ask me that, and I'm like, no.

John Dehlin [02:26:36] Are you saying you're learning that for the first time?

Samantha Shelley [02:26:37] No. I knew that was okay.

Chase McWhorter [02:26:39] But there's a lot of people.

John Dehlin [02:26:40] Sorry, There's a lot.

Chase McWhorter [02:26:41] There's a lot of people. John, who. I've had bring that up and heard. I've heard that. And I'm like, ah, I'll correct that one. Because it's like, that's actually not what happened.

John Dehlin [02:26:49] So that he's happy. And you. You said he's happy in the relationship.

Chase McWhorter [02:26:52] Oh. I think that he is beaming because Connor knows that he's married to a star. And he knows, like, he loves Whitney.

John Dehlin [02:27:00] She seems to like him.

Chase McWhorter [02:27:01] She does. And they're the best couple. And I think they fit each other perfectly because they're both, you know, And I think that's what the coolest part is. I do think that Whitney is, you know, the whole thing about Mormon wives. I think it's cool, is like these, these women that are, that are breadwinners, that are, that are these stars and then their husbands, who for the most part are caretakers now watching the kids and they take the other side of it. And I think that, like, you see the different couples wrestle with how that reality and that non traditional sense. And then Connor and Whitney are acing the test when it comes to that, which is Whitney is gonna be on Broadway who knows how long. I hope forever, by the way. Cause she's so.

John Dehlin [02:27:35] She's also starring in a movie.

Chase McWhorter [02:27:36] She's starring in a movie. Like, Whitney should always do that. And then Connor is figuring out where, what his thing is because he also was a badass at his job and he quit that to support Whitney. So Connor was doing a great, doing great in his own right, but he's also understands that he loves Whitney and her alignment. Right now he's following and showing like, hey, you're the star and I'm gonna do whatever. I watch the kiddos, I'm gonna teach myself magic. Which I think is so awesome and so secure in his masculinity that he's just like, yeah, dude, I'll do that and I'll watch the kids until you are done. And I can't think of a better example of a married, like, couple who's gone through some, like, gone through some hard times. And I, yeah, whenever I see him, I mean, I, I, I saw him at Lifetime, like probably a year ago and I was like, I love you guys because you guys have gone through stuff. You've gotten hate on the Internet. You know, Whitney is, I always say, I laugh because like her whole, like the RSV video that she got in trouble for, like, hated on. And it's like she did a video. And then when you look at Whitney through the lens of this is a theater kid who is meant for the arts and Broadway, and that's why she's such a star. And that's also why whenever you try to bring her back into, like caring about what's going on with the drama of Mom Talk, she's just kind of like, it's like that's not her design right now. And it was maybe. And that's why maybe she was maybe the villain more so because it's not ultimately, I think her purpose. Her purpose. Purpose is right where she's at. And I love watching her. And I want more Whitney on my screen on Broadway.

John Dehlin [02:29:04] Could there be a day where she leaves Mom Talk, do you think, like, formally leaves It. Or do you think she'll always keep that?

Chase McWhorter [02:29:09] As I think she should. I mean, I don't know what she's gonna do, but I think she should get out of that and just do all of Broadway and shows and movies and whatever.

John Dehlin [02:29:18] She's a big star.

Chase McWhorter [02:29:18] She is.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:20] Our first panel that we did for season one, I felt like I was going to bat for Witch and it was. And people really hated me for it.

Chase McWhorter [02:29:27] Yeah. No, Whitney.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:27] It's so hard to defend her.

Chase McWhorter [02:29:28] Whitney's a polarizing one, but she is truly doing, I think, exactly what she's meant to.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:34] I wanna. Samantha, I'm just gonna say, like, I think I'm gonna make you blush. Like, when I think about Whitney and how incredibly talented she is in so many ways. I see you the same way, Samantha. Wow. I know even more. No, no, no singing. She's out Spotify songs. Oh, really? She's funny.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:53] I am not as good at anything as Whitney is at dancing.

John Dehlin [02:29:56] No, but you're super intelligent and witty, and I think, Samantha, you have star quality. And I. I'm sending this out to the world. Like, I think Samantha is a talent. Put me in a Broadway show, discovered, and I, you know, I see you, like, a couple times a year, so it's not like I'm just being honest.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:13] That's really nice.

Chase McWhorter [02:30:14] And I think as an artist, you do yourself a disservice. Anytime you try to, like, get super practical about people giving you content compliments about being an artist, then you should just lean into it.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:21] Yeah, you're right.

Chase McWhorter [02:30:22] You're like, yeah, I am that.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:24] And I have all the correct opinions about the secret lives of women wives. Always. And everything that Chase is saying is just like. Yeah, it's so validated.

John Dehlin [02:30:32] Makes Samantha super successful.

Chase McWhorter [02:30:34] There we go.

John Dehlin [02:30:35] Because she's super talented.

Chase McWhorter [02:30:36] It'll give. You just gotta tell it to.

Breaking News and Broader Mormon Culture Reflections

John Dehlin [02:30:37] Okay. All right. So just, like, crazy, like, real time. Margi texts me a People magazine article that just came out, like, Yeah, a few minutes ago or an hour ago. And it says, mormon wives halts filming after Taylor Frankie Paul, involved in recent alleged domestic violence incident. And I'm so sad.

Chase McWhorter [02:31:04] Yeah, me too.

John Dehlin [02:31:05] And you don't have to talk about it if you don't want to. But, like, that's real time news.

Chase McWhorter [02:31:08] It's real time news. I think. I mean, I don't know the details a ton. I. Obviously, what I love about the show for me, is that, like, I'm not inner circle. I'm not. And I actually really like that because there's I think there's a tax on being inner circle. I actually love to do the ignorance is bliss thing.

John Dehlin [02:31:26] Do you mean the pressure and the stress?

Chase McWhorter [02:31:28] No, not so much that. So much as, like, the. No. Of, like, you know, talks between production and cast members. And I mean, I'm someone that's like, hey, will you come to this? Like, sure. So I don't know. Yeah. I obviously. Big fan of Taylor. Big fan of Dakota. I know they're very toxic, and it sounds like there's been another incident. And I hope to God that gets worked out in whatever way it should, but I also hope that they will figure it out and get help.

John Dehlin [02:31:52] Okay. Yeah. Well, our best to all the family people involved.

Chase McWhorter [02:31:57] Totally.

John Dehlin [02:31:59] Okay. Did you have something? No. Okay.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:02] Just reality TV makes people feel like they have to pick a side on everything when really there's just a lot of. Of human complexity interacting.

Chase McWhorter [02:32:10] I'm Switzerland. Switzerland. Is that what they say? I want that one. I'm like, I love them both and I cheer for them both, and I want nothing to do with. I have told Dakota, though, like, dude, I like, this is the thing with Taylor. Like, you have, you know, you're up against, you know, a very beloved person. And I love Taylor, but I also. Yeah, I. She's complex, and I think that she's imperfect and she would say the same. So I hope that they work on that, you know, and get that figured out eventually at some point. Point. But it's up to them.

John Dehlin [02:32:35] I mean, if it. If it really goes south at some point in, like, significant ways where their lives are really damaged.

Chase McWhorter [02:32:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:42] I'm probably going to feel, well, not only super sad, but a tiny bit complicit, that collectively we all contributed to an environment. Because, I mean, my guess is maybe some of this behavior you wouldn't have predicted five or ten years ago when you knew her, or maybe you would have predicted it at all.

Chase McWhorter [02:32:59] I do think that you're right about, like, it being exacerbated again online because of a show. And I think that's also the tough thing, though, is that that was Taylor's dream. So it's like, yeah, it's like, we are complicit, but it's also, like, also complicit in the dream element. So it's like, it's hard because I feel like it's very personal. And ultimately, I think that I am against blaming, I guess, the masses for something that I do or she does. I think ultimately Taylor knows what's right and right and wrong and she's also someone who carries a lot of kids guilt for things she's done wrong. And that's why I relate with her, because she'll be the first one to tell you that she's messed up. And I don't expect this to be any different. I don't know the severity of it, but I hope, you know, I hope it's something that can get worked out.

John Dehlin [02:33:38] Well, again, best wishes to all the family members involved.

Chase McWhorter [02:33:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:44] Jen and Zach. Thanks for letting me do this. So. So, like, Zach was going to go to med school. Yeah. And then at some point, he bails for med school to try and support Jen in this season. Jen's also on Dancing with the Stars. She didn't win, but she. You could tell she's getting a bug for Hollywood. Sure. And Zach's getting frustrated being Mr. Mom. Although I'm guessing I was saying, I was watching with Margi and Clara, and I'm like, they've got a nanny, but they're making it. I'm guessing they do, but they're making it look like he's watching the kids all on his own. And Margi and Claire are almost mad at me for suggesting they would have a nanny. But still, kids are hard. Being a dad is hard, even with a nanny. So I'm not trying to diminish it.

Chase McWhorter [02:34:32] No.

John Dehlin [02:34:33] But like, you're getting the impression that Zach. His patience is wearing thin. Jen is getting the Hollywood bug. And it's one of several relationships that I'm thinking this relationship might have an expiration date, you know, and I'm not asking you to opine on that, but just on the dynamic.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:50] Because sometimes Zach doesn't come off great. But then other times I wonder whether, like, you. If I got to know him or like Dakota.

Chase McWhorter [02:34:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:57] I would actually think he was really cool. I don't know how to.

Chase McWhorter [02:35:00] You would. You would think Zach's cool? I. I like Zach. I do think that. I know Jen. Jen's probably the person I know the least on the cast. Like, I don't. I never was around Jen. I only talked to her probably twice. I don't know Jen at all. I know. I know Zach, and I know that Zach is. I actually have a lot of empathy for Zach because he grew up in the church, I think from a wealthy family. And I think that he is in real time. I can kind of see some of the. I personally see some of the things that he's recognizing. And I won't speak for him on this because I think it's Maybe something in the next season. But I just think that Zach is also struggling with the non traditional role of being a husband right now because Jen is a star. And I don't know what the length of, like, how long that'll last. I don't think you can really predict that. I also think that, like, in the last season, he says, like, in Hollywood's not a great example of, like, marriages. And it's like, yeah, that's fine. That's probably true. But it's also like, I don't think that's a reason to avoid it if that's what Jen wants to do. I feel like more so than almost any other couple on the show. I know that Zach and Jen have a. They've gone through their struggles publicly, but I also know that they both have a desire to make it work. And I've seen that in Zach where I know that he's. There's some push, but there's also some pull where I think he realizes, like, okay, that was.

John Dehlin [02:36:26] Well, he did give up med school.

Chase McWhorter [02:36:27] Yep, yep. And then he'll also, like, he's not

John Dehlin [02:36:29] loving being a supporting role.

Chase McWhorter [02:36:32] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:36:32] And of course, Jen's saying, well, I was a supporting role for you. I can't be. So it's complicated.

Chase McWhorter [02:36:37] It is complicated. He's trying.

John Dehlin [02:36:38] It seems like he's trying.

Chase McWhorter [02:36:39] And that's what I think is such great television, though, because you literally see the wheels, like, the cogs turning and you're just like, okay, maybe the reaction wasn't the greatest one right there. But I know Zach and I know that he's like, okay, he's good at being like, I shouldn't have done that. Maybe I have a different perspective now. And so I always. I really do think Zach is trying. And I think that he loves Jen. I know he loves Jen so much. I just think it's also. So it's a tough dynamic because, yeah, the med school was his plan, and then probably being a doctor of sorts and then providing and kind of the traditional route, and that's definitely not where they're at. And it doesn't seem to be like, where they're headed. And I wonder if he's able to rationalize that. And I think he will. But, yeah, I don't really know Jen that well, to be honest. It's like one of the people I've spoken to the least.

John Dehlin [02:37:27] There's a part of me that, like, with Dakota and Taylor, I feel like it's almost harmful to their marriage that they're trying to work these Things out in the public eye. Right. I think it's tough, but, yeah, so I do worry about that, and I guess I do wish them well. I don't know what else to say. Oh, I was going to say this a couple things. One is, do you ever think about. So, like, all the time, journalists will reach out to me and say, why are so many Mormon women, women so successful at social media? And one of the theories around that is that it's almost like patriarchy revenge. Like revenge. Like Mormon women are raised feeling like they're secondary to their husbands and support to their husbands. I think we used to call them the temple ceremony, used to say a help meet to their husband.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:28] And like, social media in many ways gave Mormon women a way to shine separate from their husbands. And so there's all this noise now in the news. Hopefully you've seen this, and I'm sure you have thick skin, but I've seen headlines like, dad Talk is Ruining Secret lives of Mormon Wives. And I think they do make cuts. And I don't know if y' all play into this, but they do make cuts where sometimes the guys don't look great, you know.

Chase McWhorter [02:38:57] Oh, God, yeah, that's all the time.

John Dehlin [02:39:00] But also they probably make cuts that way because it really is, at its core, a show about women.

Chase McWhorter [02:39:08] It is.

John Dehlin [02:39:08] And that's awesome. And that's, I think, part of what people love about it. But, like, how do you explain the patriarchy, Mormon feminism dynamic? Do any of the women identify as feminists? Would they even hate that term? Do you think it's a revenge against patriarchy?

Chase McWhorter [02:39:26] Like, you know, I think a couple of the women might be able to identify as feminist. And I laugh at that because I think people should all. I think all the women should identify as feminists because that's exactly what they're doing, is they're trying to advocate for, at the very least, like, equal treatment and equal respect.

John Dehlin [02:39:42] And that's all feminism means, right?

Chase McWhorter [02:39:44] That's all it is. It's not more, it's not less, it's equal. And I think that. I know that Miranda, you know, again, she's. She kind of aligns with where I'm at politically. And so, like, feminism is celebrated and should be, and any notion to the opposition of that is, I think, patriarchal. And it's also outdated and obsolete. But I think that, yeah, I think that what the women. I mean, to go along with what you said, women, Mormon women specifically, having a. There's a lot of women that have just been so become Stars online, whether it be through blogs back in the past or now, currently, you know, Instagram and later TikTok talk, I think. So I think it's probably something like that, like a way for them to shine. And obviously, you know, in general, especially in the culture around here, like, there's such an emphasis on looks. And so, like, obviously being one of the highest, you know, cosmetic surgery areas in the. Per capita in the country as well, factors into the looks beside. And I think that people are naturally attracted to looks. And online, that's always going to be kind of a huge. There's a huge market for or how to be better, maybe better looking or the best version of yourself. So that plays into it for sure. I think that the women, whether or not they know it, are feminists, because that's what the show is and that's what it should be.

John Dehlin [02:41:08] The working mom. That's feminism.

Chase McWhorter [02:41:09] It is the working mom. And your husbands are watching the kids at home. And that's not shameful. That's new age. And I think it's really cool to embrace that. And it should be celebrated more and there shouldn't be. That's my thing with Zach and like, the guys that have a hard time with it was like, hey, you kind of signed up for this. And like, you. Your wife is a star. And that means by design. Right now, I don't know how long it lasts, but, like, you're supposed to be number two. And, like, you should celebrate that just the same way Connor is, which is like, hey, my wife is the star. I just saw a video of him doing a magic trick outside of Whitney's Chicago show.

Samantha Shelley [02:41:43] Me too.

Chase McWhorter [02:41:43] And then he does the magic trick successfully and everyone's cheering and they start to go, go, Connor. And he goes, whitney, Whitney. And I'm like, dude, what a. Like, that alone shows how much you care about your spouse. And that is so cool because traditional gender roles were always the other way around. And all that women are doing right now is advocating for them to be treated the same. And so this show should be a show about women. I think it's fun to see the dad's side of it and how much they're struggling, because that actually is like a real. That's real. By the way. Like, some of them are struggling more than others, but it's really like a real peel of the onion away. Like, what's happening in these relationships where the women are stars and they are celebrities of sorts, and they're going to the Oscars or whatever it is, but their Husbands are known kind of as their husbands. And it's always been over the course of time, it's been the opposite. It's like, who's the man? Oh, this is his wife. And we've seen that on so many occasions where it's like, this is. You know, even people will say it like, this is his wife. And it's always like, oh, so demeaning. And so like, you know, you run con. It shouldn't be that way. So it's okay for men for a while to get that treatment because it's kind of, like, deserved and it's overdue. And it's also happening on, you know, it's. The show's four gonna be five seasons. We'll see about after that. But it's like, that's happened to women forever. You know, they were. They were trade pieces forever in marriage, where it was like, you. This is. I'll give you my daughter to this, you know, in, you know, back in the day as, like a. As a chess piece. And it means money and it means all this thing. And it's like women were never treated like men. And so it's okay to kind of reverse course on that first. That's why I love the show because I do think it's fun to kind of be like, I'm a background dancer. I'm not the main event. I shouldn't be the main event.

John Dehlin [02:43:26] Wow, it's cool to hear you embracing that. Like, I'm thinking about why the dad talks guys subconsciously to me maybe don't come off great. Yeah, I'm sure part of it is the gender roles that my brain is conditioned to expect. I'm sure there's a level where my brain is going, well, these guys aren't being real men. Now, I would never vocalize or even think those thoughts, but I know I have to be conditioned to feel that. That a man should be providing and leading.

Chase McWhorter [02:43:57] We all are. And I think that I've always kind of tried to stay a little bit away from the whole dad talk thing. Like, you'll never catch me. I don't typically do the videos. I just think that the whole term itself is always a little cringy. And I expressed that to, like, my brother and Dakota. I was like, dude, I'm not down with this dad talk thing. Like, we are. We are here to basically be, you know, assisting in whatever way, like, whatever plot needs to be added. And again, we're not. The main event shouldn't be. And that's what I like about it. That's why I think Connor does so well on it. And he's. And he's. He's so well liked because it's like, he's okay with that, and everyone should be okay with that. You should embrace it.

John Dehlin [02:44:30] Yeah. And going back to Jen and Zach, what I see in Zach's humanity is him just struggling to reconcile the Mormon patriarchal leader. I mean, for heaven's sakes, he's from a wealthy Mormon family, and he was gonna go to med school. Now he's literally watching the kids while his wife's a superstar. And I think a lot of the conflict and pain I see in Zach is him just trying to make sense of that and still maintain a sense of self worth and self efficacy.

Chase McWhorter [02:45:00] What I. What I think is really interesting about Zach is that, like, I think his desire to do something where he feels like he is, you know, well respected and like, just like everyone, like, that's like the traditional male role is like, you want to do something to provide, so you feel like you're well respected and. But like, Zach, if you could just realize what you're doing as a supporter right now of Jen is exactly that you are doing something that should. It's respected and it's appreciated. Maybe not to the crowd of people that you typically would appeal to, but it's like, people love the fact if you would just get out of your own way and understand that you are number two right now and you should celebrate the fact that you're number two, that's in and of itself a step in the right direction. Way more so than you getting, like, a conventional or a traditional job and providing in the way that your dad did. Like, embrace it. I just think that's the message to everybody on that show is just embrace your role and be happy about it and be a cheerleader. You should be a cheerleader.

John Dehlin [02:45:56] In that sense, it is kind of revolutionary, not just in Mormonism, but culturally, because it is defying traditional gender roles and stereotypes. And I think in overall, I mean, some would say all the plastic surgery or all the makeup and the hair and the clothes and all the silliness is just toxic culture. But it's objectively true that they're challenging, damaging gender stereotypes and communicating empowerment for women. That's also true.

Chase McWhorter [02:46:31] Yeah. And I think that, like, actually, I just think, like, with the whole, like, yeah, there's. There's a lot of, you know, some of the girls have had enhancements or plastic surgery or whatever. They get their hair done at, you know, JZ Styles with The hair extensions and stuff and all. I'm like. I think that, traditionally speaking, I know that there's a lot of people that have feelings about, oh, that's so much work and stuff. I think what's cool is, I think what it. And Miranda and I have talked about this, where it's, like, what it means to be a woman without any sort of regard for anyone else's opinion. And by the way, I don't know what it means to be a woman, nor should I ever be someone that's quoted as thinking he does. But I do think that my opinion, from talking to Miranda, who is a great woman, is what it means to be a woman is to do exactly whatever it is, whatever it is that you want to do with your appearance and your demeanor and how you dress. And if that means you dress up to the nines and you're wearing a dress and your hair and your makeup done like you're going to the Oscars, that is inherently feminine, because that is what you should. That's what you want to do. And I think it's probably in alignment with yourself. Now, if you're a. If you're the type of woman that doesn't really like to wear a ton of makeup or, you know, you like your hair how it is and it's not professionally done or whatever enhancements aren't interesting to you, that is within your alignment to not do it. And I think that's what's so cool about the show is you get women. Women, and all of them are very, very, very pretty. They're very elegant, and they're on these shows where they're wearing dresses and they look like they're dressed to the nines, and they are. But, like, they're all doing what I think they. They're. They're. They're in control of their style, and they're in control of what they look like. And I love that because, like, that's exactly how every single woman should look at how they dress and act is like, what do you want to do? And if it's. I want to dress, like, I want to get all of my makeup done. I want to do this. Like, do that, that, and anyone that says anything otherwise, fuck that, dude. Like, do yourself. I'm sorry if I can't swear, but, like, yeah, I love that about, like, being a woman is doing absolutely exactly what you think you should do. And it's typically dressing for the female gaze, which is, by the way, way better than the male gaze.

John Dehlin [02:48:27] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:48:28] Yeah. I think we can Talk about, like, the impact patriarchy has on different beauty ideals that, like, I will still find myself following as a woman. And I don't think that's. I think it makes no sense to be shaming or judging what any individual woman does one way or the other. And it's like, even under patriarchy, we all get to choose how we want to exist within that, even if it is catering to the male gaze. It's fun to cater to the male gaze sometimes.

Chase McWhorter [02:48:58] Yeah, totally. I think that, again, it's all in alignment with whatever individual people want to do. And I love that about the show, is that a lot of the girls, they get of. A lot. Lot of they get slack for, like, oh, this is so fake, or you can't believe they're getting another surgery done. It's like, yeah, dude, guess what? She paid for that on her own. She's 27. Like, she just, you know, I want to do this. And it's like, you probably couldn't pay for a surgery like that if you wanted to because, like, other people, like, they live a life that they have attracted. And that does come with whatever it comes with. And so I think it's really, really empowering. And I think most of the girls would kind of say the same and they have different opinions on all that. But I think what you said is true too. Like, if it's. It's dressing for the male gaze or the female, whatever it is, I just think that, like, do whatever it is you should do. And again, my whole thing is stop caring about what the masses think or what the critical opinions are, because I don't think that those really serve anyone.

John Dehlin [02:49:49] Margi, reminds me that feminism doesn't mean being a stay at home mom and it doesn't mean being a working woman. It means women getting to choose what they want to do.

Chase McWhorter [02:49:58] Women get to do whatever the hell they want. And I think that's cool.

John Dehlin [02:50:02] Yeah. Love it. Okay, well, I'm going to wish. I'm going to formally wish Jen and Zach good things.

Chase McWhorter [02:50:10] Totally.

John Dehlin [02:50:10] I hope they can work that out. Yeah, you know, it'd be sad to see them not work that out.

Chase McWhorter [02:50:14] Maybe. Maybe it would be in their alignment.

John Dehlin [02:50:17] That's also true. Also true. Yes. And I love it. All right, Jen and Zach, whatever's good for y' all do that.

Chase McWhorter [02:50:25] We support it. Rights and wrongs.

John Dehlin [02:50:28] Okay, well, let's see. I'm trying to think if there's any other plot lines that are really important to me to talk about. Are there any characters or relationships you want to ask about Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [02:50:45] Not really. I feel like, yeah, this has been great. It's nice to hear more from Chase.

John Dehlin [02:50:53] Let me ask this. Like, his. Like my. I have a close friend who. All he did was go on Soft White Underbelly talk about being a Mormon bishop, where he talked about calling Kurt McConkey. His name's Bo Euler. He went on Soft White Underbelly. All he did was basically tell the story of when he was a bishop. He had a child abuser come to him, confess child abuse. He calls Kurt McConkey. They tell him to not report the abuse, and the abuser doesn't get reported. That's my. And he tells that story. He is probably at this moment been excommunicated from the church. If you say, I've been excommunicated just for having a podcast 10 years ago, I could list so many people that have been excommunicated for doing really good things, for being whistleblowers against child sex abuse, they get excommunicated. Like, are you aware of any member of this show, this cast, male or female, ever experiencing church discipline for anything before or after the show came into existence that you're willing and able to talk about?

The Church's Relationship with the Show

Chase McWhorter [02:52:14] You know, that's a great question. I know that around season one, there was like an article that was put out. They were like, basically, we don't. We don't condone this.

John Dehlin [02:52:24] That was so funny, the church putting that out.

Chase McWhorter [02:52:26] Yeah, like, they put out an article. I don't remember where, but it was like, we. This is not reflection of our values. Which I thought was just like. Just like you're telling on yourself, basically. Kind of like when someone by their own admission is like, hey, I didn't steal that. And you're like, we didn't even ask. You know, like, what a weird thing to say. I don't think there's ever been. I know. I wonder if Taylor's gotten anything like that, because I know that she's technically still a member. Some of the girls have left the church. Like, Jesse's not a member of the church. I know that Mikayla and I think Macy kind of go. I think Whitney, too. But it seems like maybe not quite as frequently. I don't know if they've ever gotten any discipline. I don't think so. I haven't heard of anything where someone gets in trouble. I honestly feel like Taylor might have got. If Taylor did get some sort of judgment or whatever, maybe excommunicated or at least talked about not. Not voicing that she's Mormon. I feel like that would be a terrible move for the church because she'd probably just make a. You don't want to go up against Taylor Paul. I mean, especially on social media. And I've been on the wrong end of that one, so.

John Dehlin [02:53:32] But I mean, isn't that weird that like extramarital sex, adultery, alleged child abuse and I'm not targeting her at all.

Chase McWhorter [02:53:44] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:45] I'm not targeting her at all or even judging her at all. I'm noting the same. The kind of double standard of the Mormon church.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:51] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [02:53:51] You started a podcast and you get excommunicated.

John Dehlin [02:53:54] Or Sam Young leads a movement to protect children from child abuse and he's excommunicated. Or Jeremy Runnels publishes the CES letter and he has to resign because he is a disciplinary council's held. Or Bo Euler talks about the church recommending that he not turn in a child abuser and he's excommunicated. It's. I'm trying to just shine a spotlight on what the church does and doesn't really care about. And it's almost hypocritical. But how do you make sense of it?

Chase McWhorter [02:54:24] Well, I think the church. I mean, if we wanna talk about things that the church does that are hypocritical, I think we could do another few hours on this podcast. And I do agree. I think that that's ridiculous. I always thought that there was such a double standard with the portrayal of really caring about child abuse with the. Our situation and their kind of connection to that. And then this.

John Dehlin [02:54:46] Tim Ballard.

Chase McWhorter [02:54:47] Yep. Tim Ballard, who I, from the get go, felt like vibes were off. I mean, I won't even go into that, but like, yeah, the whole time was like, okay, so there's.

John Dehlin [02:54:56] There's this.

Chase McWhorter [02:54:56] And then that ends up being basically a complete farce. And, you know, it's really quiet about all that. I mean, I had family members that were like, loudly proclaiming their attachment to it. And then when it kind of. All the. How, you know, it all crumbled, it's like crickets. And I think that's kind of what. But this is exactly the way I look at the church now. And this isn't to offend anyone that is a member, because I think that you can be a member if you want. You can also hear this, that it is impossible for me to look at the church and not think you operate just the same way that Sony would. You are a corporation. And whenever something bad happens, HR related, just like that company where one of my Favorite Internet moments of last year where that CEO was caught, like, hugging that other chick. And it was at the concert.

John Dehlin [02:55:42] Was it his wife?

Chase McWhorter [02:55:43] It was not his wife. And, like, that was the HR nightmare. But it was funny because, like, the company dealt with it. Terrible optic, but the company dealt with it and is still a company today. I don't even know. Maybe they. I'm sure they replaced the CEO and I'm sure they replaced the check. But, like, that was hilarious and we all kind of laughed. That's the church. When something terrible happens, it's an HR nightmare. They address it. They remove who they need to, and they continue. And they don't.

John Dehlin [02:56:04] Or they don't remove like. Or they, like. I was surprised to hear David Archuleta is openly gay. They haven't touched him.

Chase McWhorter [02:56:11] Well, I think that we're starting to see a theme. When they're social media people, you don't touch them because they did me. Well, they get you. And then, like, these people that are like, whatever, it's a musician or it's Taylor, Frankie, Paul. It's like they're not touching them.

John Dehlin [02:56:22] Yeah, Like Dan Reynolds or like Tyler Glenn or David Archuleta. There's this double standard where you get a celebrity pass.

Chase McWhorter [02:56:28] I wonder if it's because there is a. Like, there's a little bit of a benefit that they get from Taylor saying she's Mormon just because of the reach.

John Dehlin [02:56:36] I was going to ask you that next. Like, do you think there's any part of the corporate Mormon church that feels like secret lives of Mormon wives is good for the church's reputation?

Chase McWhorter [02:56:46] Probably the same people that think it was good to hold on to GameStop and like. Like, really, really get invested in that. Because it was, like, gonna probably eventually pop off. I think. Yes. I think there's like a. There are very calculated, smart minds over there that are like, yeah, we don't want this to be the representation of what we do, but we won't endorse it. We don't hate that she is telling people on. On a massive scale that, like, she's Mormon. Cause that's gonna bring intrigue and, like, that's the whole point of it all.

John Dehlin [02:57:12] Cause back in the, let's say, 90s and 2000s, when I'm having corporate jobs outside of Utah, I'll say I'm Mormon. And people are like, oh, is that Amish people? And I'm like, no, no, no. And they're like, oh, is that polygamous people? And I'm like, oh, no, no, no. Like before the past five, 10 years, people, Mormons were an afterthought. They were these weird missionaries that came knocking on your door.

Chase McWhorter [02:57:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:36] Or they were polygamists or they were Amish or Mennonites. But nope. Now when people in the United States or even the world think Mormon, they think hot, good, dancing, smart, funny, witty girls and their husbands that are goofy.

Chase McWhorter [02:57:52] And a BYU team that can buy the best player in the nation, like in a BYU basketball can buy AJ debona. Like, they, they think about like. Yeah. And I think that's a great thing for the church. That's probably why. Because they're like, we actually don't mind that attachment because it is massive. And it is, it's getting news. It's headlines. And I think that's headlines at the end of the day that are relatively like, Taylor Paul's never going to come out and say like 10 reasons why I love being a Mormon, but she's going to tell people in passing that she's Mormon. Most of the girls too. Like, they're not like, they're not like you. You're. You kind of talked about how you in the 80s, like that's not the member they are. And to their.

John Dehlin [02:58:28] No, they're like you.

Chase McWhorter [02:58:29] They're like me and Miranda. Yep.

John Dehlin [02:58:31] Back living in Riverton or wherever you were.

Chase McWhorter [02:58:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:35] Herman, like millennial gen zers kind of in, but kind of not, not taking it too seriously. Having a lot of fun.

Chase McWhorter [02:58:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:42] Right.

Chase McWhorter [02:58:43] And I think that they know that they're like, there's not really the, the church. I think they're going to be like, I think that they are mostly like, we can take the good here. And then every time anything bad happens, we are able to say like, well, we don't actually co sign that, you know, so I think it's calculated and just like someone at Sony or whatever name a massive corporation, that's how they'd handle it.

John Dehlin [02:59:04] Well, I get a sense, Chase, that you still love the Mormon people.

Chase McWhorter [02:59:08] I do.

John Dehlin [02:59:08] And still want good for the people in the church.

Chase McWhorter [02:59:11] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:59:12] And Samantha, I want to get your take on this too. Like, there's a world where secret lives of Mormon wives are positively transforming Mormon culture to make it less restrictive, less orthodox, less uncool, maybe even more cool.

Chase McWhorter [02:59:29] Sure, sure. And I, yeah, I mean, I, I actually think that if it, if embraced the right way, like, you can make it work. I mean, I don't think it necessarily in my mind would work like that. Like, but I have friends, like, friends that I'm friends with now. That are more Mormon. And I can poke holes in how that doesn't necessarily work in my brain all day long. But I also understood, I think, that there's a new age of membership right now where like, I look at like youth, which is obviously hemorrhaging, but the ones that are sticking to it for the most part are really nuanced. They're way more nuanced drinking coffee. They're drinking coffee and they don't care. And they're getting a piercing and they're, they're, they have a tattoo on their arm and they're like, I'm Mormon. And I'm like, you know what? That's a step in the right direction for you. For what I like, that's validating for me because that's all I ever wanted was to like, we can't do it. I can't get, I remember thinking like, I love Kobe Bryant's ear piercing. I love Michael Jordan. I love this guy's ear piercing. I love his tattoo. I like that. And being like, I can't get that. I'm like, no, dude, get a tattoo. And then if you want to go to church, still go to church. I love that for the future of people, just because I think from a, a mental health stance, it's way better.

John Dehlin [03:00:38] What do you think, Sammy?

Samantha Shelley [03:00:39] Yeah, I mean it is psychologically healthier and I don't think it will keep people Mormon because we already know that when groups like that loosen the rules.

John Dehlin [03:00:46] I think it does kind of, that's, that's the rub is if the church, if this gets to be too prevalent, this culture becomes too predominant, then what it means to be a Mormon is have tattoos, have earrings, maybe do some soft swinging, singing, drink, swear party, have a non traditional marriage where the mom works outside the home or as an influencer and your marriage more likely than not is going to end. Like, how is that good for the church culturally?

Chase McWhorter [03:01:17] It's not. And I, absolutely, I'm rooting for that. You know, I'm rooting for the church to eventually lose its tax exempt status. If I'm being honest. That's, that's my real interest. But, but I, I love the membership, I love the people. I love everyone there. I'm just like, you know, save that 10 for a tattoo or whatever. You know, do something else or child care. Child care therapy.

John Dehlin [03:01:40] Yeah. That's interesting. So, yeah, so it's, it's, it's going to get wild. It's already wild and it's just going to get more wild. Do you do you think. Think people have left the church? Well, I have two questions. Do you think people have joined the Mormon church because of secret lives of Mormon wives in any meaningful number? And do you think people have started to question and or leave the church because of secret lives of Mormon wives? Or do you even have any idea?

Chase's Current Faith and Final Thoughts

Chase McWhorter [03:02:12] I would be shocked if a significant number of people have been led to the church because of secret lives.

John Dehlin [03:02:18] Really? Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [03:02:19] I feel like that I want to

John Dehlin [03:02:20] be hot and cool like them.

Chase McWhorter [03:02:23] If you're deterred to a high demand,

John Dehlin [03:02:26] what's the definition of cool other than what's on everyone's TV every night of the week is the most streamed thing that is. Is that the definition of cool?

Chase McWhorter [03:02:35] And not to say it's not cool. I think it's more like if you are brought to a high demand religion because of a bunch of people that are like, maybe living it kind of. I think that, like, I would question your ability to make really important life decisions. I would be like, what, what do you. That influenced you to get baptized? Like, wow, like, maybe question, like, maybe you're like, what is a Mormon? And you look that up. But like, I would be shocked if it's led to any conversions. Maybe I'm wrong. But like, I also think, number two, I hope it's kind of led to people at least that were like me, that were like, I don't really feel 100% like myself in this and I. I don't really know where to go and I don't feel like I have the courage to take any steps in the direction that I maybe, maybe need to. I hope it's helped those people because it's been a massive assist to me and people ask me all the time, like, how are you doing? Like, as if it's like, because it's hard when the new season comes out. Like, some people get a really bad opinion online and a lot of critiques and I've been fortunate. For the most part. It's been relatively positive. But I'm like, you know what? I don't really care because I have done really dumb things and when I do, the son writes an article about it and I'm like, well, that happened. That sucked. But I also feel like I'm doing what I want to do and I'm in alignment with where I'm supposed to be. For the most part, I can always get better. But I hope that it's helped the people that were like me in the church at least continue to try to question and feel like, do you Want to. Is that what you want to do? Because if so, good, do it. And if it's not, take a step out of your comfort zone because that's where the growth is, you know, love it.

John Dehlin [03:04:08] You may or may not be able to answer this. There's this vibe that you had, you know, when you were married to Miranda and you had all these friends who were couples where like people may have been lukewarm on the church or in or out, but it wasn't really discussed. Is there ever. Do you think it's ever happened where like, where like Whitney and Taylor and Jen and Jesse and Macy and whoever are sitting around going, wait, Joseph Smith married 14 year olds. Wait, wait. The Book of Mormon was translated with a stone and a hat. Wait, the Book of Abraham wasn't verified by Egyptologists. Do they ever get into the problems with the church's truth claims? Do they have awareness of it? Are there any who you are able to say just literally don't believe anymore and they literally have lost their faith completely. And are there others that are like literal true believers or are they all kind of in the middle? Middle. What are you able to say about their actual literal beliefs?

Chase McWhorter [03:05:10] I know that Leila wouldn't care and Jesse wouldn't care if I was. They don't believe in the church.

Samantha Shelley [03:05:14] They're.

Chase McWhorter [03:05:14] They're completely out.

John Dehlin [03:05:15] So Leila and Jesse are out?

Chase McWhorter [03:05:17] Yep, they're out. Non believing, non believing.

Samantha Shelley [03:05:19] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [03:05:20] Not members.

John Dehlin [03:05:20] Would they be aware of the truth claims problems and that type of stuff?

Chase McWhorter [03:05:23] I think they. I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:05:24] It's just not working for them.

Chase McWhorter [03:05:25] I think Jesse might because her. I think she had a family member also leave that was actually in it for a long time. So she might know, but she left. She's not a member. Layla too. Miranda, I think they're like Macy, Michaela, Whitney are all. They would consider them if you asked. They'd say, yeah, I'm a member of the church.

John Dehlin [03:05:43] But would that have been like you and Miranda like.

Chase McWhorter [03:05:46] Yeah, I think there's probably like a healthy amount of just like this is. It's a nuanced member. It's a new age nuanced member of the church. That's what I would. That's my speculate. That's my guess. And I think that I, I think that I'm right. J. Jen for sure. I know that her and Zach members nuanced though. Like they're not going every Sunday. I don't think I'd be shocked if they were. Cause she's dancing with the stars. But who am I forgetting?

John Dehlin [03:06:09] Is there anyone who wouldn't drink a beer?

Chase McWhorter [03:06:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:13] Yep. There's.

Chase McWhorter [03:06:14] I don't think. I don't think Macy or Michaela drink. I don't think that Whitney drinks. I don't think that Jen drinks.

John Dehlin [03:06:22] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [03:06:23] I don't think they drink alcohol.

John Dehlin [03:06:24] Not that that's some major litmus test.

Samantha Shelley [03:06:26] No, no.

Chase McWhorter [03:06:26] But I think that, like, it shows a level of commitment. Commitment to their beliefs.

Samantha Shelley [03:06:31] One thing I found strange in season one was when Whitney and Connor said they tried champagne for the first time when they moved into a house. And I was like, are they just Mormons who are drinking for the first time for Christmas?

Chase McWhorter [03:06:40] So maybe they do. I actually probably shouldn't expect. I could be wrong on all of these, but that's the vibe I got. Maybe Whitney and Connor do. They're also living in New York, and I feel like from things I've seen, it seems like they're kind of maybe going through a little bit of a. Like a. I don't want to say deconstruction, but, like, maybe something like that, from what I've seen.

John Dehlin [03:07:03] Interesting. All right.

Chase McWhorter [03:07:05] I do think that, like, most of the women, though, that, like, just because of, like, kind of like Miranda. And I think this is truly, like, probably a good thing for your psyche. But if you asked him about some of the, like, you know, some of the hesitations that people have, like me, that led me to leave the church, then it was very much like, trying to prove the church was true or not true. And, you know, your critiques with Joseph Smith and his. And the first vision, you know, not actually being written down 10 years until 10 years after or whatever, like, there being a number of first visions during that time period and how it wasn't all that unique at all, and how it was an angel at first, then it was later, two personages and Jesus and God, and it's like, all those. They probably wouldn't have a lot. I don't think they'd know. I just don't think that that's how they.

John Dehlin [03:07:45] Are there any of them that would know the CES letter type stuff?

Chase McWhorter [03:07:49] I'm sure they've heard of the CES letter, but, like, I really don't. I don't think any of them read it.

John Dehlin [03:07:53] Okay.

Chase McWhorter [03:07:54] And that could be wrong. Like, maybe tell me I'm wrong. But, like, I don't get. I don't think so.

John Dehlin [03:07:58] But it's also possible, like, with a lot of couples your age, you just

Chase McWhorter [03:08:02] never talked about, don't care, and I think that, like, most of them would be like, no, I don't care. But, like, I also. I'm very comfortable with where I'm at with my belief. Be like, oh, cool. Like, who am I to say otherwise?

John Dehlin [03:08:11] Do any of them feel like their participation on Secret, Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is like, a missionary effort to, like, proclaim either to, like, spread the gospel, or they want to change Mormon culture in a positive way because they're believers?

Chase McWhorter [03:08:31] I actually think that, like, there's legs to some of the girls, and I won't. I don't even know that I can speculate on who, but I think some of them maybe think, like, you know what, being on this and having it be. Because I do remember hearing about when the title came out, like, they had filmed the first season. Miranda wasn't a part of it, but I remember there was a ton of consciousness, controversy about the name being Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. And I think that some of the girls, yeah, probably embrace the fact that they're like, you know what? We're not actually trying to, like, ridicule the church like you guys all think we are. We're actually just trying to show you how we live. And we are Mormon. And so it actually is our right to be on a TV show, claim the name, because I am Mormon, and I don't have to be your version of Mormon, but I can be what mine has worked for me. And I think that, like, that was kind of the sentiment that some of them took. And I think that, like, honestly, that's fine. It's a great title for getting people polar, like, having polarizing opinions, and that's kind of the whole thing. But I do think that some of them probably go like, yeah, this is a secret life of a Mormon wife, because this is my life and I'm Mormon. Despite not checking every box of the

John Dehlin [03:09:31] orthodox or not believing at all.

Chase McWhorter [03:09:33] Or not believing at all. I used to be Mormon. And I think that's the argument, too, is that a lot of the women were raised in Mormon households or around Mormonism because of their proximity to Utah. And so I think that, like, the argument is simply. Well, a lot of them were around Mormonism in a way that the outside world hasn't been, and that's why there's so much intrigue.

John Dehlin [03:09:49] I'll just say the Mormon Church is threatening to sue me right now because for many reasons, but mostly they don't like that I have the word Mormon in my podcast, even though I've had it for 21 years. And I look at the term Mormon like I think many Jews look at the term Jewish. It's a culture, it's a heritage. And so even though the church excommunicated me, I still self identify as Mormon. And I'm not trying to deceive people. And Mormon stories, interviews ex Mormons and liberal Mormons and orthodox Mormons and I think it's good to expand. And obviously the church has rejected the term Mormon as something they don't want people using, so they've abandoned it. I love the fact that we're pivoting or reshaping the word Mormon to mean a group of people or a culture. I don't think think it's deceptive. I don't think it's disingenuous. I think it's healthy and I think it's accurately descriptive of what we are, which is it's a people who come from a shared heritage that express our beliefs and non beliefs in a lot of different ways.

Chase McWhorter [03:10:56] I totally agree. And I think that like add that to a list of long hypocritical things that the church has done. I mean my whole mission I passed out cards that said soy Mormon. That was the whole act that we had videos made like campaign about it. Like they spent millions of dollars on I am a Mormon. And then I come home and it's like we're actually not going to say that anymore. And I remember a couple times I'd say Mormon, please don't say that. It's actually Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. And I was like, dude, you know what I mean? And I also just, I'm going to say Mormon. Like it's not, I'm not trying to offend anyone, but like I have lived that. That's always been what I've used. And so I'm so sorry. And it's general. Yeah, I think that that's, I mean, Mormon stories, this my story that I just shared with you. I'm no longer a member, but that was a story about me being Mormon and I will never apologize for that. And you shouldn't. I think that you shouldn't either. I think it's ridiculous that they're suing you. But add it to the list of hypocritical things like we said could go on for a long time.

John Dehlin [03:11:52] Fortunately, they haven't sued me yet, but they're just threatening to.

Chase McWhorter [03:11:55] Oh well, come what may.

John Dehlin [03:11:59] Well, this has been amazing. I think we're probably reaching what should be the end. I really, I've loved Chase. I've really loved getting to know you. I had great hopes about how you would come off and you way exceeded that. And I even had really good hopes. I will say this would have never happened without you, Samantha. So thank you for making this happen.

Chase McWhorter [03:12:21] Yeah. Thank you.

Samantha Shelley [03:12:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:23] And also Clara, my daughter Clara, Shout out to her. She. I sat down with Claire and Margi and we watched like six or seven episodes and we binge watched like in one day, like seven episodes. We got a couple to go, but check it out, it's on Hulu. I think it's really interesting and poignant. Are you loving it?

Samantha Shelley [03:12:42] I loved it.

John Dehlin [03:12:42] Yeah. Yeah. You saw it all every season. Of course.

Chase McWhorter [03:12:48] I want to say really quick, John, I do think that like everything I've discussed so far has been like really, really talking about like Whitney, for example, how she's doing, what she's here to do. And I really think that's commendable and I love it. I know that. I think that you too, like, you were instrumental in my ability to, I think, get to where I'm at now in being in alignment with myself. And I think that that's why I was so stoked about coming on this podcast because I know people have opinions about you, right or wrong, like left polarizing ones. And I just think that like what you do is exactly what you're supposed to be doing. And that's why anyone that has anything to say about John Lynn, I'm always like, dude, I, I respect that guy and I like that guy a lot. Cuz he, even though he doesn't know me up until today, like he helped me in ways that I think helped me get to where I'm at and whether it's one person or millions, you know, we, we go through life and you hope that you affect someone and like you, you did that with me and so I, I'm a big fan.

John Dehlin [03:13:35] Oh, wow. Thank you. And you watched Self on the Shelf too, right?

Chase McWhorter [03:13:39] Yeah, exactly.

Samantha Shelley [03:13:40] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [03:13:41] So I'm amidst two people that I'm a fan of and that's why I was so stoked about coming on.

John Dehlin [03:13:45] Thank you. Well, this has been a real treat for me. Are there. Should we have this be the one cast member we interview or do you think we should try and interview?

Closing Remarks and Farewell

Chase McWhorter [03:13:53] Get all of them, man. Get all. They're all.

John Dehlin [03:13:55] Do you think any others would.

Chase McWhorter [03:13:56] Yeah, I think you could start. I, I'd really, I'm curious. You could probably. I, I bet you get Dakota. For sure. I'd tell him, just come on, you get Dakota, please. You could I'd tell Miranda, too. I mean, I don't know if she's busy as heck nowadays, but, like, Miranda's got her own story, you know? And again, she was different than me, so I don't know that she was locked into all the, like, the, the podcast and stuff that I was listening to. But, like, I'm sure Miranda would, would want to come on. She loves doing podcasts, and I could, I could put in a good word. I mean, I love you guys.

John Dehlin [03:14:25] Thank you. I was bummed for Macy. Like, like, part of the show is her trying to sell her book. I'm like, macy, I'll help you sell your book. Come on, Freak of Mormon stories.

Samantha Shelley [03:14:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:33] So I dm. Turn hasn't responded.

Samantha Shelley [03:14:35] So she sold it in the end, though.

John Dehlin [03:14:36] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:14:36] Seem like.

Chase McWhorter [03:14:37] Yeah, I know. I, I, I know I like Macy a lot. I, I'm, I'm trying to become better friends with her and Michaela, which is taking a significant amount of leg work. But if I ever get there, I'll pitch you.

John Dehlin [03:14:47] Well to any other cast members if you happen to catch this. We'd love to have you, of course. But also, if this is the one I do, I think, I mean, other than Miranda, this is the one to do. What do you think?

Samantha Shelley [03:14:57] Yeah, I agree.

John Dehlin [03:14:58] Right.

Samantha Shelley [03:14:59] I had a really good feeling about this, but I agree that it has exceeded my expectations.

John Dehlin [03:15:03] Dude.

Samantha Shelley [03:15:03] And everything that you show yourself to be online, it's beautiful to see that you're, like, even more that in person. And it seems like it goes all the way down, which is cool.

Chase McWhorter [03:15:12] That's gonna make me cry. There's no better compliment than that. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:15:15] Yeah. And then, you know, I'm watching the live stream, and the comments are all like, they love you, Chase, and they love your bull commenting.

Samantha Shelley [03:15:21] Green flags. Green flags. The whole episode. Every time I look at the chat. Green flags.

Chase McWhorter [03:15:25] That's uncharted territory for me.

Samantha Shelley [03:15:27] Has green flags.

Chase McWhorter [03:15:28] There's red flags bad. And I, I've checked a lot of those boxes. It's nice to be over here for once.

John Dehlin [03:15:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And people mostly just value, like you said, like, authenticity, vulnerability, being genuine, being honest, being open.

Samantha Shelley [03:15:46] Right.

Chase McWhorter [03:15:46] And I think the best thing that people ask, you know.

Samantha Shelley [03:15:48] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [03:15:49] It's like, what are you good at? What are you talented at? And I kind of go, I remember someone asked me that yesterday, a couple weeks ago on a thought exercise, and I was like, I'm, I don't think I'm that great at. Like, there's nothing that I can say. I'm that great. Like, I'm the best at. And then I was like, you know what I am the best at is being Chase. I am the best at being Chase, and you're the best at being John. And I think that's the goal is, like, be the best at being yourself and the best version of yourself, obviously. But no one's better than being at being chased than me. And I think that's actually kind of a cool thing.

John Dehlin [03:16:15] I love that.

Samantha Shelley [03:16:16] So true.

John Dehlin [03:16:17] That's wise.

Samantha Shelley [03:16:18] Yeah, you are wise. I love all your spiritual insights. I feel like we're aligned.

Chase McWhorter [03:16:24] Yeah, I made a lot of dumb choices, but I think through that, you become more wise.

John Dehlin [03:16:28] Amen, brother. Amen. All right, man. Hey, thanks for coming on. Tell us how to pronounce your last name.

Chase McWhorter [03:16:33] McCorter.

John Dehlin [03:16:34] McCord.

Chase McWhorter [03:16:34] At the coin. I always say McWhorter. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:36] Oh, McWhorter. Okay, okay. Chase McWhorter. All right, Chase.

Chase McWhorter [03:16:39] Thanks again, Samantha.

John Dehlin [03:16:40] Do you tell people that you do coach coaching and that they can donate to Zelph on the shelf?

Samantha Shelley [03:16:45] You really can donate to Zelphonthe Shelf. Patreon.com SelfontheShelf okay. We also have a PayPal, which is linked in all our videos.

John Dehlin [03:16:52] And you do life coaching, and I

Samantha Shelley [03:16:54] do samanthashelleycoaching.com if you're going through a faith transition and want emotional support and

John Dehlin [03:16:59] you're a budding Broadway star.

Samantha Shelley [03:17:01] Yes. Producer. What I guess you at this point. So reach out to John.

John Dehlin [03:17:07] Fifteen is all I ask.

Samantha Shelley [03:17:09] That's all he asked.

John Dehlin [03:17:10] No, wait. I got to do less than 10.9% is all I ask.

Chase McWhorter [03:17:13] John Aja 9.9.9.

John Dehlin [03:17:16] Got to do less of the church, right?

Chase McWhorter [03:17:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:17:18] All right, Samantha, well, it's great to have you again. Thanks for coming on. And really quickly, thanks to Brooklyn for what she does behind the scenes. And Julia, please subscribe and like this episode. I don't do product placements. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I try and just keep it pure as possible. Our ads barely make up, like, 10% of our revenue. We mostly live by donations. So if you donate. Thank you. If you don't donate and you value this content and you want to see it continue at a minimum, please subscribe and, like, but if you can, go to MormonStories.org donate, become a monthly donor. We're tax deductible in the U.S. we're transparent in our finances, and we try and spend all our money bringing you good content. So please support us if you can. Can we Love your comments. Please light up our comments. Tag us, comment, like it, share it. We love all the engagement. Be kind, but engage in lots of discourse. We love that as well. You can also follow us on Facebook, TikTok, Instagram. I'm even on substack. And we're on X. Like, follow us in all the places. We chop up these things and create shorts, but mostly just thanks for your support. Check out Secret Lives of Mormon Wives Season 4. There will be a Season 5.

Chase McWhorter [03:18:38] Yeah. They're on a film pause.

John Dehlin [03:18:40] Right.

Chase McWhorter [03:18:40] But we. They'll have one. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:18:42] So again, right. So blessings to the. To Taylor and her family.

Samantha Shelley [03:18:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:18:48] Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [03:18:48] And I think if you were commenting and you like my perspectives on any of this stuff, these two were a big part of, I think, where I got where I am. So, yeah, donate.

John Dehlin [03:18:55] How do people follow you?

Chase McWhorter [03:18:56] Just D. Chase Mac. My first name is Daniel, So Daniel Chase McWhorter. D. Chase Mac on TikTok and Instagram.

John Dehlin [03:19:02] It's.

Chase McWhorter [03:19:03] That's where I'm at.

John Dehlin [03:19:04] Can people donate to you or no?

Samantha Shelley [03:19:06] Sure.

Chase McWhorter [03:19:06] Yeah. Hit me in Venmo.

John Dehlin [03:19:10] And are you. Are you looking for something to date or not so much.

Chase McWhorter [03:19:13] You know, I think I got to do some more. More work and in order to be a good partner. I am. I'm working on that. But eventually, yes, eventually, we'll. I'd love to get the companionship if I can get more green flags.

John Dehlin [03:19:22] And I'll say, Miranda, if. If Chase keeps working on himself, give another shot. Come on, Miranda. He seems like a nice guy. Like, he's working.

Chase McWhorter [03:19:31] I see her rolling. She's rolling her eyes as she hears

John Dehlin [03:19:33] you say that no one's ever going to be your kid's dad. Yeah. Like Chase.

Chase McWhorter [03:19:37] One more platonic third, he'll know to

John Dehlin [03:19:39] love your kids more than Chase.

Samantha Shelley [03:19:42] Facts.

John Dehlin [03:19:42] Is it true?

Chase McWhorter [03:19:43] No. So true.

John Dehlin [03:19:44] So, like, come on, Miranda. Give him another chance at the. At some point when he earns it.

Chase McWhorter [03:19:47] Come on, Miranda. Yeah, when I'm there. When I'm there, give it to me.

Samantha Shelley [03:19:50] John's like, keep the patriarchal structure, guys,

Chase McWhorter [03:19:53] like, actually reconsider it.

Samantha Shelley [03:19:55] No co parenting. Yeah.

Chase McWhorter [03:19:56] No co parenting.

John Dehlin [03:19:57] No.

Chase McWhorter [03:19:58] We'll see. Maybe. Cross my fingers.

John Dehlin [03:19:59] All right. And thanks for Margi and Clara for making this possible as well. Couldn't have done it without y'. All. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Check out Secret Lives of Mormon Wives Season 4, and we'll see you all again soon. Check out Zephythe Shelf and we'll see y' all again soon. On another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks, Chase.

Chase McWhorter [03:20:15] Thanks.