Welcome and Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is December 8, 2025. We are Mormons who watch Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. So you don't have to. This is part two of our coverage on Mormon stories of season three of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Today we have a power triangle of just three of us. It's me, John Delinquent. It's Alyssa.

Alyssa Alexander [00:00:28] Hello. Alyssa Whitbeck.

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Witbeck. And Samantha Shelley. Samantha, how's it going?

Samantha Shelley [00:00:35] Good. Yeah. And we've all watched the series the same amount, which is what's so beautiful about this power triangle.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] This is an isosceles triangle, which means that two sides are equal and one side is shorter than the other two. And we won't say which one that is. No, I'm just kidding. No. Today, Alyssa and Samantha are fully prepared to discuss the second half of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I'm fully prepared to respond to the clips I watch and to their recounting. They're going to recount. You don't even have to watch Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. All you have to do is watch today's episode. They're going to catch you up on all the drama, and then we're going to watch specific clips that have Mormon ties. And then you, along with me, are going to just cogitate, analyze, process the Mormon ness of it all. And I want to start with a hot take. Are you ready?

Alyssa Alexander [00:01:28] We're ready.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] Yeah. Are you ready?

Samantha Shelley [00:01:29] We love when you do hot takes.

John Dehlin [00:01:30] Okay. I think this series should be renamed the not so Secret Lives of Not so Mormon not so Wives. What do you think?

Samantha Shelley [00:01:42] Even the not so Wives. True, but the blow dragging them at every level.

John Dehlin [00:01:47] Is this. Is that too much of a hot take?

Alyssa Alexander [00:01:50] No, I mean, is it fair? I think it's fair.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:52] Depends on the wife. No two wives are the same. That's one of the rules of Wives. That's why you have to have a lot of them in the celestial kingdom.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] No, I mean, there's a. I mean, this is like one of the biggest shows ever in the history of Hulu.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:10] And. And perennially, consistently, there's this question, are these women even Mormon? So we're here to validate or dispel those myths. All right. Also, please like and subscribe and donate@mormonstories.org donate. We exist through the generosity of our donors. Alyssa, you are producer on today's episode.

Alyssa Alexander [00:02:35] You did the title.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] What's that?

Alyssa Alexander [00:02:36] I said thank you for the title.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] Yeah. So you want to Give us a background, I guess. We did part one. I don't know if we even need to recap.

Alyssa Alexander [00:02:44] Yeah, we did part one, which was episodes one through five. Today we'll mostly be talking about episodes six through 11. 11 is reunion. We'll bounce on that a minute because there's a few things there. We'll talk a little bit about some things from episode five that felt relevant to carry us into today. But there's just a few main themes that we're kind of going to be going over. A few main plot points that are particularly relevant to our Mormon angle.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] And are we covering the post show stuff like the reunion, all that drama?

Alyssa Alexander [00:03:16] I think as it applies, I included a couple things of it because I just threw it all in here and then we can see how much we get to.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] All right, listen, do you want to tell everyone again who you are and how they follow all your creative endeavors?

Alyssa Alexander [00:03:30] Yes. Hello, I'm Alyssa Witbeck. I'm a writer. My most recent publication is an exponent 2 that talks about being a mom, about shame, pride, parenting, Mormonism, all that stuff. So go check that out in the most recent issue of Exponent and also other writing that are Mormon adjacent, wife adjacent, secret life adjacent on my website, which is Alyssa with Beck.com and on the TikTok it is somewhat lapsed as far as participation, but go look. It's called List likes words.

John Dehlin [00:04:03] And you're also not so Mormon mom. Is that right?

Alyssa Alexander [00:04:06] Not some woman mom. Ex woman mom.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] I wasn't going to say not so mom. That wouldn't be.

Alyssa Alexander [00:04:11] Yeah, right. Not so.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:13] Not so.

Alyssa Alexander [00:04:15] Not some Mormon. Very mom.

John Dehlin [00:04:18] Very mom. Very wife.

Alyssa Alexander [00:04:20] Very wife.

Guest [00:04:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:20] Okay. All right, Got it. And Samantha to our other very wife.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:24] Thank you. Yeah, I am kind of a little bit of a housewife to be honest.

John Dehlin [00:04:30] To your cats.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:31] Well, to my boyfriend as well. You know, he's a working man. He goes out, works 10 hour days and I maintain the home.

John Dehlin [00:04:38] Love it. Tell us who you are and what you do and how people can consume your services.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:42] Yeah, so I'm half of Zelph on the Shelf so you can watch us on YouTube. We're on. We have a lovely patreon community at patreon.com self on the shelf. Also have a substacks month. Shellysubstack.com Sometimes I write about Mormonism on there and then. Well, I've also been a faith transition coach for the last five years. So if that interests you, you can go to samanthshelleycoaching.com Shelley with an ey.

John Dehlin [00:05:06] You're a terrible promoter.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:08] I remember to bring up my coaching this time. Normally you have to say that, but I was like, no. John gets me in a good mindset. Always be advertising.

John Dehlin [00:05:16] Absolutely. Always. Marketing. Okay, where do we begin? Alyssa.

Mikaela and Jace: A Young Mormon Marriage

Alyssa Alexander [00:05:20] Okay, let's start off with our main. One of the biggest storylines of the second half of the season, which is Mikaela and Jace. So Mikayla is one of the Mormon wives. Um, the first couple of seasons, she didn't get a ton of screen time. Her main storyline was that she had. Is it an autoimmune disorder? Okay. Skin condition. Anyway, we start to see a lot more of her this second half of this third season. She is married. She's currently pregnant with her fourth baby, and she is 25. She turns 25, actually, while she's pregnant. So she's very young. And they kind of open up, her and her husband Jace, about their marital struggles. And this tends to be her arc for the second half of the season. They're struggling with intimacy, both emotional and physical intimacy. And a lot of that struggle is based on Michaela's past sexual trauma that she had as a child. She has been open with her husband Jace, about some sexual trauma she experienced at age 15. She got pregnant with Jace's baby at 16. They got married quickly after. So it's kind of a rough.

Samantha Shelley [00:06:27] And he was 21.

Guest 2 [00:06:28] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [00:06:29] When she got pregnant at 16, which

Alyssa Alexander [00:06:30] really adds a dark cloud to their entire relationship. I feel like otherwise, Jace is one of the more likable men, but that's a really hard start to that relationship to move past.

Childhood Abuse and Mormon Sexual Culture

Samantha Shelley [00:06:42] As a viewer, did you mention that she also was abused as a child?

Alyssa Alexander [00:06:45] Oh, yes.

Samantha Shelley [00:06:46] Like, she was 6ish. I don't know.

Alyssa Alexander [00:06:48] Yeah, and that's one of the things. So it sounds like she's had multiple

Samantha Shelley [00:06:51] bits of sexual abuse. I think it was, like, early childhood and then again at 15. And then she met Jason, got pregnant with him at 16. Just interesting.

Alyssa Alexander [00:06:59] It seems like there hasn't been a lot of working, and she's. I guess she's open. She hasn't really worked through a lot of that sexual trauma. She hasn't even opened up to her husband about a lot of it, particularly who abused her at age 6. And that seems like it's kind of starting to come out sideways in her relationship. She's having a hard time being open romantically, both sexually with her husband and also, like, emotionally. He will say, I love you, and she will give a quick love you, but feels uncomfortable with, like, a Lot of connection. So they set off on television while she's six months pregnant to solve their sexual issues, which I think in and of itself is. We're already off on a bad foot. So anyway, let's just kind of start off with that storyline.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] So we're starting light.

Alyssa Alexander [00:07:41] Yeah, exactly. We're starting. Welcome to Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. The nice themes are so light. Exactly. It's. It's funny because it's always seen as, like, such a vapid show. And of course, there's elements of that of drama, but so much of the content is so heavy. So I guess a really heavy trigger warning for viewers. Or just start with caution, because the entire series, this whole season is just pretty dark with sexual themes especially.

Samantha Shelley [00:08:07] Yeah, kind of the whole show is just pure chicocha.

Alyssa Alexander [00:08:10] It is.

Samantha Shelley [00:08:10] Here's what happens.

John Dehlin [00:08:12] All right, well, I've got so much I already want to say, but let's play the clip. With our first clip, we'll discuss it. So this is Jace, Michaela's husband.

Guest [00:08:21] For me, it's not just physical intimacy or the sexual intimacy. It's really hard for her to have an emotional, vulnerable relationship with me. She might be able to say love you as she's walking out the door, but she can't actually, like, sit down and tell me how she feels about me. I know she has definitely the harder half of this. The biggest thing in her way is fear, and rightfully so. But for me, it just kind of leads to me feeling like my wife doesn't love me a lot of the time.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] So right off the bat, I'm just gonna. I'll call balls and strikes from the Mormon angle. I. I tell people we get about a thousand applications for people to be on Mormon stories every year, and I would say somewhere between 50 to 75% of them have abuse elements to the story. I'm on record as saying that the Mormon Church probably has a child abuse levels per capita comparable to the Catholic Church. One piece of confirmatory evidence of that is the Boy Scouts of America lawsuit. Whereas I understand that the church has settled, has, you know, offered something in the hundreds of millions of dollars in terms of settlements with tens of thousands of reports of child sexual abuse. And that's just the boys. So even just this last week or the week before, the brother of LDS apostle D. Todd Christofferson, the brother's name is Wade Christopherson, has just been picked up by the police, investigated by the FBI for abusing children. And so. And that's just like. It's like every week there's a report in Utah or Arizona or West Virginia or Idaho of child sexual abuse within a Mormon context. So that's super common because the church tends to hush these things up and not report it to the police. And the church's legal services don't tend to get psychological or psychiatric help for the victims. Untreated trauma, especially from sexual abuse, is super rampant in Mormonism. And so as someone who worked as a psychologist for six years and has spoken with tens of thousands of Mormons and ex Mormons, this idea of people getting married, it's usually. It's often women who are abused, but it's not only women, but it's often these women who otherwise are, you know, viewed as virgins or consider themselves as virgins. They come to marriage having had no other sexual experience than abuse. They marry having not had any sexual education or treatment or conversations with their spouse, and they get married. And then there's just heavy sexual dysfunction. People very close to me are in the situation where they'll go to 5, 10 years, 20 years of relatively sexless marriages, and it tears lives apart, families apart, marriages apart. And that's. So this is just. There couldn't be a more Mormon theme than this. That's just my balls and strikes for the first topic we start with, and y', all, please take it away. I just had to give my perspective.

Alyssa Alexander [00:11:47] Yeah, it's something that I guess just a little bit more could continue on going macro with this. This is something that comes up for so many of the women on this show, which I think is particularly interesting. Most, if not all of them have talked about some form of sexual abuse. And I guess that's the main thing, too. I wanted to just mention about the reunion is we have two other cast members who reveal that they've been sexually abused. And so now on the stage, we have almost the entire cast. I think almost all the women, if not all the women, several of the men who have been sexually abused. And I think even just anecdotally, this is something that in every social circle I've ever been a part of, every even work environment, I've been a part of where people begin, like, sharing their stories. Like, as a teacher, I have students will submit essays. This is just something that comes up once, it seems like once people get comfortable, this seems to be something that many people reveal that they have experienced, and it is pretty rampant.

John Dehlin [00:12:43] You've lived most of your life in Utah, right, Melissa?

Alyssa Alexander [00:12:45] Yeah, most of it, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] So you've. You've heard of and seen a lot of reported abuse.

Alyssa Alexander [00:12:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And a lot of it does seem to stem from. From purity culture, from this patriarchal idea that. That men own their wives, own women, and it's a lack of sex education. It's just a perfect storm that leads to a lot of trauma.

Samantha Shelley [00:13:12] Well, even just the. The Michaela being 16 and Jace being 21 is somewhat. Not like, that's not that crazy for Mormonism. You know, like that can happen.

John Dehlin [00:13:24] What do you mean?

Samantha Shelley [00:13:25] Well, it just. I mean, that is statutory rape, is it not?

John Dehlin [00:13:29] But not weirdly not in Utah. Like I once looked this up and I think there are weird laws that allow men up to like 27 to have sex with girls, Women, young women as young as 16 or 17. We can have Julia Google that. But that's my understanding. There's weird because there's this idea of if someone's 18 and 17, is that statutory rape? Of course not. Because they'll be in high school together. Well, what about. What about 18 and 16? What about 18 and 15? So there's already these. I think they're called Romeo and Juliet laws.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:10] That allow that. Make it so an 18 year old and a 15 year old don't go to prison or jail if they have sex or the 18 year old in that case. But as I understand it, it can extend up as high as the mid-20s.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:25] It's like I'm inclined to be sympathetic to Jace as we see him struggling in this season, because I know that he's also been a victim of purity culture. But it is hard to think about 16 year old and a 21 year old. And that's not counting in her mind seemingly as abuse. And it, the, you know, Mormon culture is pretty much like, well, if you got married, it's. It's sort of done now.

Alyssa Alexander [00:14:51] You know, you don't have to think about it anymore.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:53] Yeah. And so it's just interesting that her body is literally rejecting Jace at this point in their marriage.

John Dehlin [00:14:59] Julia did look it up and she's saying you can be up to 10 years older than the victim.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:04] Wow. That's from a 16 year old.

John Dehlin [00:15:06] So a 26 year old.

Alyssa Alexander [00:15:08] Wow.

Samantha Shelley [00:15:08] When does it start? Like, could it be a 15 year old and a 25 year old?

Alyssa Alexander [00:15:12] I mean, 16.

John Dehlin [00:15:13] I think it might. I don't, I don't. I don't know. But It's. I mean, 16, 26.

Alyssa Alexander [00:15:18] That's particularly uncommon in Utah. Right. That's not.

John Dehlin [00:15:21] Every state's got different rules. Yeah. The other thing I think that bears mentioning and I, You Know, I don't mean to, to be heavy handed with this, but the founder of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith was in his 30s when he started taking plural wives aggressively. And the, the, you know, he started in 1840 aggressively. I mean his first affair was with a teenage girl. I believe the John Turner says she was around 18 or 19. So Fanny Alger. Alger was the first. So he was do. He was going for teenagers in his 20s. But, but that was in, you know, Kirtland era, Ohio, mid-1830s. Once he gets into his 1840s,

Sexuality, Shame, and Mormon Upbringing

Samantha Shelley [00:16:10] he

John Dehlin [00:16:11] may have been in his early 30s, now that I think about it, but once he gets into the 1840s in Nauvoo, after he sort of slows down marrying other men's wives, he starts marrying teenagers and he marries, as I understand it, at least two teenage girls as young as 14, when he's like 35, 36, 37. So Joseph Smith sort of started not only plural marriage, but the marriage of, of older men to teenage girls and then subsequent prophets. Between Joseph Smith and the termination of Mormon polygamy in the 1910s, 19 fifteens, there was just a long history of old Mormon men fighting over vulnerable teenage Mormon girls who were often immigrants from another country who couldn't speak the language.

Samantha Shelley [00:17:04] I didn't know they'd have to go be some bishop's third wife.

John Dehlin [00:17:08] Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:17:09] When they made the trek over selling everything, they have to come here.

John Dehlin [00:17:13] Right.

Samantha Shelley [00:17:13] Wild.

John Dehlin [00:17:14] There was an informed consent. Now is that being, am I being too heavy handed? Am I being unfair by your readings of the history? You can tell me. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:17:23] Oh no, not.

John Dehlin [00:17:23] And early church history.

Samantha Shelley [00:17:24] No. Yeah, of course, the lots of middle aged religious leaders marrying children.

John Dehlin [00:17:29] Yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:17:30] And I think it's just like, it just lays the foundation for the types of relationships that we're seeing now. I think it just is just another layer of that informs what we're seeing.

John Dehlin [00:17:40] Yeah. So you don't think, you think that's a fair, is it fair to connect modern day predation, Mormon predation on teenagers with, with Joseph Smith polygamy, I mean, or is that too far in the past to really be relevant?

Samantha Shelley [00:17:56] No, I think it's relevant and I think patriarchal purity culture, which like by design prioritizes the feelings of men, always seems to have this element to it. Right. It's just when a woman is more objectified and you're not necessarily partnering with her for her thoughts and feelings and dreams and aspirations and all that stuff, it's just kind of like people are more willing to sort of widen that like ideally in my mind, a 21 year old wouldn't like just emotionally would not connect to a 16 year old the way that you would expect, like, you know, hope for two people that are going to have a kid together. Like a 16, even a very mature 16 year old presume and a 21 year old, like that is such a big developmental leap.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] Yeah. What do you think?

Alyssa Alexander [00:18:47] Yeah, I mean, I think that even just like systemically looking at. I'm trying to like, I don't know, maybe I don't know if Jace knew that she was 16 or she pretended to be older. I don't know the story. So I'm not trying to pick on him in particular, but I think like we look at the pattern of this. We look at even just like what we're talking about with Utah's laws. I think Utah has been formed from Joseph Smith, formed from Mormonism. These laws are created in part because of that. We know as of very recently that laws are shifted to protect different leaders, family members. Many of those leaders are involved in the church. So I think like, it's all just a compounding factor. And so we can't separate ourselves from the origins of the church, especially because it really wasn't that long ago. And. And especially when we're looking at the way the systems are working.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:37] Yeah. And your Mormon Stories podcast, I feel like you have to draw those parallels.

Guest 2 [00:19:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] Julia's fact checking. Turns out Joseph Smith would have been 30 in 1835 when he was allegedly betting Fanny Alger. And then he would have been 35 when he took Louisa Beeman as a wife.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:59] Why is that? I've always just heard for like 10 years that Fanny Alger was 16 when Joseph married her.

John Dehlin [00:20:04] Well, the problem is there's a question about she lived with him multiple years. So the question is, when did Oliver catch Joseph in the barn with Fanny and John Turner? Because of some justifications that you'd have to check into the Joseph Smith podcast to hear. Because we cover the Fanny Alger scandal. He dates it to be with. To Fanny being around 18.

Samantha Shelley [00:20:29] Does he have a vested interest in her being 18 or is it just.

John Dehlin [00:20:32] No, no, no. If you get to his navu section, he goes hard.

Samantha Shelley [00:20:34] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:20:35] So he's literally just trying to analyze the, the, the evidence.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [00:20:40] Cool.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] Yeah. Yeah. He pulls no punches in my opinion, so. And I guess, I guess if I'm going to argue against my own position, there's probably no chance that Jace knew about Joseph Smith's teenage sexual predation. Right. Because to know, don't we argue on Mormon stories and on Z that nobody knows. Yeah. That the church doesn't tell its members about its problematic history.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:05] He's 29, so I mean, or he

John Dehlin [00:21:09] wouldn't have at the time.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:10] I guess he could have heard about the essays 10 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] Right.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:15] I feel like 29, it's. It could go either way. He may have heard that Joseph took teenage wives. Never really know.

Teen Pregnancy and Premarital Sex in Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:21:22] Okay, well, to connect with, with Michaela for a second, like what would it be like to be a 16 year old Mormon girl and to get pregnant?

Alyssa Alexander [00:21:35] Yeah, I mean it's horrible on so many levels. I mean and, and she hasn't been super open about this. So I, I don't know what it would be like was like for Michaela in particular but I think the shame within Mormon called Mormon communities around having premarital sex anyway and then getting pregnant is its own scarlet letter. There's just so much shame there. And I'm sure I would imagine her or any other women in that position. Girls in that position feel like they don't have a lot of options. They don't have a lot of choices. And they did get married and it seems like they have like a fine relationship. But that's the other hard thing too about Mormonism is we have this idea that like if you have a baby, like you have to get married. And so we don't know what the circumstances were for them to get married if they felt like they were forced into it, if they were even compatible. I don't think they were together for a really long time building this really beautiful relationship before they got pregnant.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:29] So it was a month.

Alyssa Alexander [00:22:31] Yeah. And so then it just. Their whole lives were changed at that point. And Michaela I think is also in such a hard position because like she's just been pregnant so many times since then. Her fourth baby in, in just a few years and like I'm sure just for her body in particular, like that's just so much further trauma that she's been going through. Even if it's something that, that they're consensually deciding on as a joint team. They want to have more children. That's great. And we have to recognize like the literal physical toll that that is going to be on her so quickly and like the babies being relatively short apart, I don't know how many, how far apart, but the fact that she's on her fourth, like that's just quick and. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:14] Do we have more Michaela and Jace clips?

Alyssa Alexander [00:23:16] We do.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:17] Okay.

Alyssa Alexander [00:23:17] Should we bump to them.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:18] I didn't want to jump ahead really quick.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] I, you know, I'm not necessarily super modern when it comes to sexuality in the sense that I, I do think people should be wise and thoughtful and educated when they, when they have sex. And I'm, I'm, I'm imagining y' all probably agree, so I'm not necessarily pretending that y' all wouldn't, but what I am going to say is that it, you know, sometimes people want to say that if you're ex Mormon, then you're like, have sex as young as you want for as often as you want, with as many partners as you want. And like, I'm guessing that's none of

Samantha Shelley [00:24:00] our positions, what he's saying, as young as you want.

John Dehlin [00:24:03] Right, right. I, I, I mean, within reason, but, but I guess what I'm clumsily trying to say is that I don't necessarily think that it is bad to,

Guest [00:24:19] to

John Dehlin [00:24:19] be, it's probably good to be really thoughtful about sex before marriage, in my opinion, and at this. So I don't want people to think I'm arguing for recklessness or lack of education on that regard. But I also have just seen so much damage with Mormon couples getting married, having never had sex before, either at all or with each other. Because how do you know if there is a fundamental sexual incompatibility and, or how do you know you need treatment for trauma if you've never actually tried to have sex before? And so there's that real rub of we want to encourage thoughtful, educated sexual exploration and even care. And in theory, we're okay with people not necessarily being reckless in that regard. And getting merited virgins seems like a huge risk that I would probably advise my children against, but that's just me. Do either of y' all have thoughts on that?

Samantha Shelley [00:25:32] Yeah. And even outside of just your compatibility with your spouse, I think just the notion that you shouldn't explore your sexuality at all before marriage is just, it's inherently making sexuality that is something that you claim for yourself through someone else, which is like, that's going to result in a dysfunctional relationship with your own sexuality. Like, sexuality is something that you have to sort of find within yourself first. I think in the same way that people say you can't deeply love someone else too, you love yourself because you'll always be looking to sort of fill a hole through them. And so then that's kind of antithetical to like, true connection and relating that isn't obsessed with what, what's the outcome going to Be here. It's just, like, true connection. It's. To me, it's just the same way with sexuality. It's like you can't outsource your eroticism to one person forever. Like, even if you. You know, you could obviously be. You could have one sexual partner your whole life and be monogamous your whole life. But, like, I still think you need to sort of claim your own sexuality, for it's something you have to explore and connect to by yourself. And I'm talking about that in, like, a bigger sense than just, like, masturbation, you know, I mean, just like, eroticism as an energy in your life and in yourself. And, like, I think a lot of people, maybe Mormon or not, can kind of relate to what Mikaela seems to be going through in this season because, like, how many of us have been just thoroughly cut off from our own eroticism because the world does. Mormon or not, the world just doesn't teach you how to be healthily connected to that force within yourself.

Alyssa Alexander [00:27:14] Yeah. No, I agree. That was well said. Thank you.

Sexual Intimacy Struggles in Mormon Marriages

John Dehlin [00:27:20] I'm reminded of. I think it was Jennifer Finlayson Fife who first woke me up to this idea. She's a PhD psychologist that works mostly with faithful Mormon couples. And I think she did her dissertation on Mormon female sexuality. And I. I think her basic conclusion was Mormon women are taught from a very young age that they exist to please men sexually, but only after marriage. But they're never acknowledged as sexual beings. And like you say, Samantha, they never learn to even figure out what. That they can have pleasure, that they should have pleasure, let alone how they receive pleasure in optimal ways. And so they enter these marriages just. It's all been about, no, no, no, stay away. I need to be pure and guard our sexuality. And that's just the beginning. They also just have no idea what. What. What's. What's attractive for them.

Samantha Shelley [00:28:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] And I think it just. It's. It just adds more layers. Right. Of complexity.

Samantha Shelley [00:28:33] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:28:34] And I mean, I think we've seen throughout this season and just throughout Mormonism at large and purity culture at large for, like, other Christian. Christian religions and religions. Anyway, just the idea that, like, women's bodies are. Are for men, and that's not like a new idea. And I think that's a kind of a trope because it's so common, because it's such a big fundamental element of purity culture and of the experiences that these women are having is that they don't have a chance to really consider their own eroticism, and they are outsourcing it like you were saying, Sam. And that then any sort of sexuality that they have is only for their husband to be consumed by their husband. And then when, when they add sexual trauma and prior sexual trauma to the mix, like in the case for Michaela, it seems like it's just adding a lot of tension. And I think what they're also up against is this really high pressure. The sex has to look a specific way or that any sort of like sexual incompatibility that they're experiencing now is like a deal breaker, as Jay says. Like, I think they both feel a lot of tension and pressure that like this is something that needs to be fixed immediately in a very like, like, oh no, we need to fix this or else our relationship is going to fall apart. Rather than even really considering like the, the pace at which that they seem like they're trying to figure this out, I think is really interesting. And like there's this sense of urgency even though Michaela's little. Literally pregnant with their fourth child. And also thinking back on the relationship, she's been pregnant four times and whether she was breastfeeding, I don't know. But like that's something that is notoriously not going to help your libido. So they're talking about how Jace has a really high libido, Michaela has a really low libido, but she's also been pregnant four times in the span they've been together. Like I don't even know if there's been very much time that they've been able to actually consider what their average levels are.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:24] And yeah, like they're co creating those extreme libidos. Like he said out of 10, was it to Natasha or a different. As the other therapist, he said his Libido was a 10 out of 10. He would have sex three times a day if he could. And she said her libido.

John Dehlin [00:30:35] Did you say that? Yeah, three times a day.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:37] So this is what I'm getting at. But she said zero. She almost feels like she just doesn't want sex.

Alyssa Alexander [00:30:43] I think she said one, but.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:44] Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, one a day.

Alyssa Alexander [00:30:46] No, no, her like a libido on a scale of 1 to 10 is 1.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:49] Okay, but it's like who knows what his libido would be if he was in a situation where he had, you know, sexual compatibility with his partner. It's like you're a 10 and you want it three times a day because it's all you think about because it's a need that's not getting met for you. And same with her. It's like, because there's so much pressure for her to have sex with him. It's a one when maybe both of them would be much more towards the middle if they were able to. Exactly exploring this outside of such a high pressure situation where there's kids involved.

Alyssa Alexander [00:31:19] Yeah. There's four kids involved now. Now they're trying to solve it on reality television.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:23] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:31:24] And she's trying to work through her, like, sexual trauma. It just seems they seem like they're coming. They're bumping up against this inherent incompatibility. And perhaps that's true. We don't really know as. As viewers, of course, but it almost just seems like this, like, misaligned or miss. I don't know what I'm thinking of. But it seems like there's this panic that doesn't necessarily need to be there. Like, they can just hold off for a minute. They don't need to, like, put all this pressure and this energy that things are so wrong when we don't even know what normal is for them.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:55] I think I do agree with what you're saying, but I feel like from seeing Jace in the season, maybe we'll watch a clip. That's why I don't want to jump ahead. But I really do feel like that is a man that is at the end of his rope. It seems like for Mikaela, it would be something she could kind of put on the back burner. And also, rightly so, six months pregnant. It's all completely fair enough that someone six months pregnant wouldn't be wanting to, like, tackle this. But I really. I could see in Jace how. Because it really is bigger than the sexuality.

Alyssa Alexander [00:32:28] Right.

Guest 2 [00:32:28] He was.

Samantha Shelley [00:32:29] You can see in the way that they interact that she's not even. She's not able to, like, meet him in the present moment in any kind of way. Like, she's. And like. I mean, I remember that feeling from my own Mormon marriage, to be honest, where it's just because, like, you. There's just some. Your soul, whatever you want to call it, just sort of knows that this is not a person you want to be getting closer to right now. And it's. Oh, it was so hard watching their awkward attempt to have a sexy scene that we. We had a clip of that.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] All right, let's go to the next clip. Let's go to the next clip. Thanks for talking about this.

Alyssa Alexander [00:33:01] That's the third clip we can.

John Dehlin [00:33:03] Let's play a second. Let's play a second and then we'll Go to the third. We can play them in succession if we want that. Okay.

Alyssa Alexander [00:33:08] Yeah. Yeah.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:33:09] I just think there's a lot of shame. I think that's why I'm angry when

Video Clip 1 [00:33:11] he brings it up. Do you know what your needs are?

Video Clip 1 [00:33:13] Do you think you need to figure out what your sexual needs are?

Video Clip 1 [00:33:17] So I feel like for me, once

Video Clip 1 [00:33:18] I found it more enjoyable, it was like, oh, like, this is like fun, right?

Video Clip 1 [00:33:23] Yeah. Well, I think that's what's hard too, is again, I still have that mindset of like, this isn't for me.

Video Clip 1 [00:33:28] Like, okay, not gonna cry. You can cry.

Video Clip 1 [00:33:36] I think it's just hard.

Video Clip 1 [00:33:42] He's just like so good to me.

Video Clip 1 [00:33:44] Yeah.

Video Clip 1 [00:33:45] And like, I want to be able to do it over again, but I just don't know how.

John Dehlin [00:33:54] You can just feel the pain there.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:57] So many thoughts.

John Dehlin [00:33:58] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:59] Well, it just seems she talked about how he's so good to her. It seems to me like they're in a dynamic where he takes on like a pretty intense caretaker role for her, which, again, rightly so, she's pregnant. You know, that's kind of how it has to be. But I do feel like couples that are really codependent where there's like one person doing a lot of caretaking, you know, there's no blame in any of this. Like, but I just think that that's not gonna make you want that person sexually. Like, if that person is in like a parental role to you, as it seems Jace is to her, you don't wanna have sex with your parents. Like, it's just.

John Dehlin [00:34:36] Or your boss.

Samantha Shelley [00:34:37] Yeah. Not abusive.

John Dehlin [00:34:40] Right.

Samantha Shelley [00:34:41] Those second ones are kind of like different, but you know what I mean? It's like they're so close and enmeshed that there's no what. Where's the desire going to spring from? Because there's no gap between them. There's no like healthy or indifferentiated self to. For them to be what? Like, where's the desire supposed to exist when you're that enmeshed and there's so much pressure and there's four kids involved. It's like you're already close enough to that person. Why would you be seeking more closeness?

Alyssa Alexander [00:35:13] Yeah. And I mean, there's four kids involved and she had that and still struggles with, I think, the autoimmune disease where she has a lot of skin issues, which I would also imagine would really like.

Samantha Shelley [00:35:24] Which all feels so connected.

John Dehlin [00:35:26] It does.

Alyssa Alexander [00:35:26] It's like her body is just reacting to the trauma this way. And. And I also.

John Dehlin [00:35:32] Meaning maybe the skin conditions Caused by all this dysfunction? Is that what you're saying?

Samantha Shelley [00:35:36] Yeah, it's like a pretty well known thing. I feel like that especially. Especially autoimmune conditions. I mean, I'm not a scientist, so I don't want to speak out of hand, but when you think about what an autoimmune condition is, it's like the body doesn't know what's like ours versus like, you know, the inside and outside world. It's like there's an incorrect barrier there or whatever. It's like it doesn't know what to own and what not to own. I'm saying this so badly, but yeah, yeah, I read this book called when the Body says no. I don't know if it's been debunked or anything, but apparently it's a pretty well known thing that women who are people pleasers, for example, can be a lot more susceptible to autoimmune conditions, which to me just makes sense from what an immune condition is.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] I think it's also people that internalize stress instead of deal with it, in

Samantha Shelley [00:36:25] my experience, and repress emotions, which we

John Dehlin [00:36:29] do well in Mormonism.

Samantha Shelley [00:36:31] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:36:32] Other thoughts on this?

Alyssa Alexander [00:36:33] Yeah, I mean, I think she mentions in there like, her. Macy's trying to help her. Like, do you just not like. Do you not like, like sex? Like maybe you can just talk about what you need. And she's like, I don't know. And I think that also feels kind of like what we're talking to a little bit earlier feels so Mormon of this. I mean, the women aren't really able. Taught to understand eroticism and are taught to shove it down so much that I think it like tamps it out for a lot of people. Especially when you add trauma to the mix. Especially when you add a young marriage to the M and then you add four pregnancies back to back. Like, I feel like she. And then, yeah, the autoimmune condition, like, I feel like she's most likely just in a position where she feels so trapped. And I think that's where so much of that pain is coming from. And I think that's why it's hard. Like, I understand that Jace especially, he wants to be able to connect with his wife both sexually and emotionally. And also seems like Michaela wants to be able to do those things and just can't and doesn't know how. And then you add the pressure of trying to figure out how to do it. Now there's like timeline that Jake says, like this might be a deal breaker, which I think is a very valid thing for him to feel. But that has to up the pressure for Michaela. Right. That she's like, I'm about to have a newborn, and I need to figure out how to deal with this. And now this is something else on my plate. I have to also, like, solve the marriage. I have to not only fix the marriage, but that means I also have to go back in time and solve my trauma. Like, that is just so much on her plate that it feels like there's no way for her to really move forward. I am just from seeing, like, this clip, it seems like she's just so stuck, and I don't even know how she could really get out of that.

Samantha Shelley [00:38:11] And I'm so uncomfortable even with this notion that the show is sort of embracing of, well, if Michaela healed her sexual trauma, if she does, you know, successful EMDR and has a healthier relationship to her childhood sexual abuse, then she'll want to have sex with Jace. And it's like, I just don't know that that's true. And I feel like when a woman is undergoing, like, a significant sexual healing effort, it's a really bad idea to have this, like, end goal in mind of. So you can have sex with this man who. Who, you know.

Alyssa Alexander [00:38:40] Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [00:38:41] I feel like she wants to solve their sexual issues, like, in theory, because she knows that that's what a good marriage is. But when you actually hear her, she's like, I just don't want it. Like, a few times she says that, and I just feel like there's no. There's no space in her life because, you know, it kind of would point to divorce. There's no space for her to just be like, maybe I do not want to have sex with this man. And, like, I'm not. It's not even. You know, it may not be because she's traumatized. Like, people can just. Like, even outside of childhood sexual trauma, just being impurity culture alone, I feel like can land people in this kind of situation even without the trauma.

John Dehlin [00:39:23] Yeah. And. And a couple things we're not mentioning. They're. Asexuality is a thing. There are people that just don't have attraction for people.

Samantha Shelley [00:39:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] Sexually, that's a thing. It's a. It's a real thing. And of course, you don't know that unless you have a chance to, in a healthy way, explore. Also, I have met many Mormon and ex Mormon wives who are lesbian, you know, and that's. That's also a thing. And you don't really. If you never have the chance to explore that. And I'm not saying, you know, let's have kids exploring all sorts of things. I don't know. I'm just saying that if you never had the chance to explore your sexuality, how are you ever going to know whether you're actually attracted to men or women or both? You have to explore usually, maybe not always. I guess you could feel attraction by watching TV or movies or whatever.

Samantha Shelley [00:40:20] You have to have sex to know that you want to.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] No, I think women. So maybe I'm wrong.

Samantha Shelley [00:40:24] I think it'd go either way. I do think it's okay.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] Wait, wait. Can I argue back? Go ahead, go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [00:40:29] Well, I do think it is a bit different with women because of like. Because being straight is sort of like the default. So I do think it could be more challenging for women to figure out that they're not straight. So maybe with women, they actually do need to, a lot of the time have experiences to really, like, see that in themselves or.

John Dehlin [00:40:46] Yeah, like, I'm. You're right. I'm thinking about, for example, the gay man who's young, who's a boy, who just really has close male friends and he doesn't realize, he doesn't. His worldview doesn't allow him to be gay. And so in his mind, he just really, really likes Billy and thinks he's great. You know what I mean? Or I've had, I've counseled as a therapist, young Mormon women who just really love their roommate and get really angry when they get engaged and it's because he's a jerk. It's not because they realize later they were in love with the roommate because in a Mormon context, they were never allowed to one consider themselves as sexual beings, but certainly not ever consider themselves as what, same sex, attracted, lesbian, gay, etc. So I think it's probably different along a spectrum of many dimensions, including gender identity and sexuality and religiosity. Yeah, but there's something to that idea of if you don't explore, sometimes you don't know. And certainly I've met many, many ex Mormon divorced women who didn't realize they were lesbian or bisexual until after their divorce.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:08] Yeah, and that's like, I mean, anything's possible here, but it seems probably most likely that she is straight or does like men. But this just isn't it. This situation is not conducive to her wanting to have sex.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:42:22] And it's also possible that they need a separation. Like, yeah, they perhaps divorce, perhaps not. But like, even if she took A little bit of time for herself because she's been in this relationship with him since she was 16. And.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:34] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:42:34] And again, this is terrible timing because they just had a newborn, you know, and so I think I feel like that's such a tough because they've always

Samantha Shelley [00:42:42] just had a newborn. Right. It feels like when has been like. I'm sure Jace didn't just like suddenly start bringing this up at six months pregnant, but probably when they were trying for children, she was able to engage sexually more because there was like this stated goal so she could kind of.

Alyssa Alexander [00:42:57] Right.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:57] I could, I could see that being a lot easier to have sex under those conditions for her.

Alyssa Alexander [00:43:01] And that's, that's. I think what's hard is they haven't had time to build relationship without children.

Samantha Shelley [00:43:05] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:43:06] She hasn't had a time to build a relationship with herself as an adult. Yeah. And he mentions at one point that he's like, you know, she used to be more into things. She used to like, like more things like role play. And it's like, yeah, it seemed like

Samantha Shelley [00:43:19] they did have like they enjoyed having sex with each other in the beginning. Like, but the beginning was also when

Alyssa Alexander [00:43:23] she was a 16 teenager, you know, which maybe like that could. Who knows why that changed. Maybe it's because she's an adult and her preferences have changed. Maybe it's because she's been pregnant four times. I don't know.

Samantha Shelley [00:43:34] It just feels like, because like, desire in long term relationships is a challenge for like anybody, like inside or outside religion. And then I just feel like this is like the worst possible conditions for navigating that because you just. Especially because she has sexual trauma. She's so wired to be like, oh, it's because I'm broken because of sexual trauma.

Alyssa Alexander [00:43:53] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:43:53] Which it's.

Alyssa Alexander [00:43:54] I mean, and they keep referring to it as an issue, which I think like, sexual trauma is an issue, but having a low libido is not inherently an issue.

Samantha Shelley [00:44:02] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:44:03] And so I think he was being like, this is. He's trying to be supportive, which is sweet. But he keeps saying like, this isn't just your issue to solve, this is our issue to solve. Which still means at the end of the day, I know you're going to want to have sex just as much as I do in the same way that I do. Which kind of feels like it's like the language. Even with a therapist, from what we're seeing on tv, we know, we know this is not their life. We're not analyzing their real life. But the way the language is kind of going is. It's like Michaela needs to adjust her desire and her expectations and her behavior to match Jace's, and her desire needs to kind of like, she needs to fix herself for her husband. And I understand that, like, for healthy relationships, some there. There does need to be a much more compatibility than there is, but it just seems like everything is put on her to change her mindset, her behavior, her drive, her connection, her trauma, her parenting, her illness. Like, it's just a lot.

Samantha Shelley [00:44:58] Yeah. I really didn't like when the therapist said give. Given the context of them talking about her trying to heal her sexuality. I didn't. And she was talking about how she's kind of resistant to really doing that work. And the therapist talked about how a good motivator can be your husband and kids. But given the fact that it was a conversation about, like, her libido and like, figuring this out so she can have a libido so she can want to have sex with Jace, like, I just. There's nothing, like, less sexy or erotic than being like, you've got to heal your sexual trauma issues for your husband and kids or else he'll leave you

Alyssa Alexander [00:45:35] and then you'll be a single mom to four children.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:37] Yeah. I just. I'm so uncomfortable with the. Like, I really do feel for Jace. I feel like I feel for Jace more than I've been watching the discourse online, and I think it's also valid. But I really can see how it's like being partnered with someone who just cannot connect with you, like, properly in any moment. That is like a heinous reality to be living in. And I don't think it's that insane to be considering leaving, but the six months pregnant thing is just like the absolute worst timing.

John Dehlin [00:46:03] What are people saying about Jason?

Samantha Shelley [00:46:05] Like, Well, I mean, kind of like what Alyssa's speaking to of, you know, maybe he's being a bit like, potentially entitled to sex or, you know, obviously the. Her being six months pregnant and him being like, something really needs to change here because we're not connecting is, you know, maybe like, insensitive timing or. Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:46:23] But I do agree that, like, that they are. It's. It feels like a no win scenario for either of them because this is their fourth baby. They've probably been deal. And they've also just been dealing with young kids this whole time, and they're exhausted, I'm sure. And like, when have. When would be a better time for them to figure this out? Like, to me, it seems like there probably has. They've probably been in the same boat for a while of she's pregnant or they have a baby, I mean, obviously, because this is their fourth child, so.

Samantha Shelley [00:46:57] And I can also see him being like, I mean, if not now, when in terms of the figuring it out, because it's like, well, she's six months pregnant, but, I mean, she's amazingly energetic. And, you know, I'm so impressed by how all these women navigate life as, like, pregnant. I just can't believe the energy they have. But, you know, she's doing all these things for her fame and career and stuff, so I just felt like them being in that they were in this big, gorgeous villa mansion together for this work trip. And you could just see there's, you know, Jace is like the husband who's really supported his wife in doing this Mormon wife thing. And, you know, he's presumably he's like doing a lot of stay at home dad stuff so that Michaela can, you know, do a lot of the things that Mumtuck has to do. And then they're in this gorgeous, like, romantic villa after, you know, years of them kind of giving themselves over to fame and to the entertainment industry, and now they've got all this money, all the opportunities in the world, and it's like, what's it all been for if we can't even just connect at the most basic level?

John Dehlin [00:48:01] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:48:01] Like sex on.

Alyssa Alexander [00:48:02] Should we watch the clip on the hot tub at this fancy villas at Airbnb there? So they go to Stagecoach. The all of mom talk. And it's. It's quite a pivot point. I remember this happening, this discourse happening online when it was live, and I was like, I'm so excited to see how this pans out on season three. And here we are. So they go to Stagecoach, big concert. The husbands go to. Michaela and Jace have kind of set this up as like, this is the weekend we're away from the kids. We're in this beautiful space that you were talking to Sam, and now we're gonna, like, really get it on cameraman and all. And so they go to the. The hot tub and this is how it goes.

Mikaela and Jace's Relationship Unravels

John Dehlin [00:48:43] All right, let's roll the clip.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [00:48:46] For me, moving forward with sexual abuse, I feel like it's something that I need to have a lot of control over when it comes to how it goes, which I know is hard for him. And he has to let go of a lot of that control. Can we officially go to bed now?

Guest [00:48:59] Yeah. She's just not ready to be vulnerable. And unfortunately, intimacy for me is really important in so much as that it's like a deal breaker. I don't know if we're going to be able to strengthen our relationship and overcome some of these obstacles.

John Dehlin [00:49:18] I think I heard a little bit of laughter, potentially. Like, what, what was funny?

Samantha Shelley [00:49:24] Well, I was just laughing at the, like. Unfortunately for me, intimacy is kind of a deal breaker because, I mean, it should be for everyone, shouldn't it? But, like, that's not unique to Jace.

John Dehlin [00:49:34] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:49:34] I don't know if he feels like it is.

Alyssa Alexander [00:49:36] He, I mean, he might if. Because it's not to Michaela.

Samantha Shelley [00:49:40] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:49:40] You know, and so, yeah, I, I, I guess what we missed in the clip as they were going to the hot tub and the jets were, like, a little bit off. They didn't seem that off to me.

Samantha Shelley [00:49:51] No, I think she was just looking for any. She was so uncomfortable in the situation, even though she had been the one to say, oh. It was actually interesting because, like, earlier, before the hot tub scene, earlier in the day, they'd got to the mansion and we see her trying to, like, flirt with Jace and basically, basically telling him in like a flirty way that they were going to have sex tonight, like, getting him excited. And I was watching it with Jared, and Jared in that scene was like, that's a man who knows it's not going to happen. And we didn't know yet if it was going to happen. So I was like, really? Because in my mind, I was like, I bet they'll do it. I don't know. I didn't really think about it, but it's like Jared just immediately knew that this is probably something Jace has gone through before. And I thought it was interesting.

Alyssa Alexander [00:50:33] My husband said that too, actually really similar. He phrased it slightly differently, but he was just like, oh, she's. It's not, it's not.

Samantha Shelley [00:50:40] Because you could tell it wasn't coming from a pure place in her. Like, it wasn't coming. That wasn't coming from a woman that was turned on. It was coming from a woman who's kind of desperate.

Alyssa Alexander [00:50:47] She felt like she was trying to, like, read the script that she knew

Samantha Shelley [00:50:50] she was supposed to do. Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [00:50:51] And, and again, I think it just kind of speaks to this really tough situation for both of them because she's saying, like, she's kind of trying to act flirty and he responds and she, I mean, you can tell she's immediately super turned off by his response. She's like. And then she kind of tries again and he'll be like, Lightly flirty back. And she kind of like does a face like, like, I don't want that. And it's just, it's just rough. And I think the, the. I don't even. I think the pressure for both of them has just built up. And I keep saying there's so much pressure, there's so much pressure, but I just feel like that feels like there's no way that they can go forward with that.

John Dehlin [00:51:31] That's impossible. Like, the worst way to get sleep is to feel stressed that you're not sleeping.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] And the worst way to solve sexual intimacy problems is the pressure of needing to solve the sexual intimacy problems. I do want to mention one other thing that we've covered a gazillion times on Mormon stories. Mormon men aren't supposed to masturbate even in a marriage. And so if, I don't know if, if, if Jace is following that rule,

Samantha Shelley [00:51:58] if it's of interest, after that scene, he rips shots like he does shots of alcohol because you can tell he's just like spiraling. So I don't know if that says anything about his. But I feel like most people would do a shot later than they would embrace self pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:52:12] Well, yeah. In an observant Mormon marriage, neither the husband nor the wife masturbates. And so because we've been taught that that's evil. And you know, I've heard Natasha and others say that that can be an important safety valve or alternative. If there isn't healthy sexuality in the marriage, well, then a spouse can kind of take care of themselves. We talk about Jason three times a day. You talk about repression. Like, if he can't even have masturbation as a release, could that be a factor in. In what's going on here? Or at least in some of those early dysfunctional years.

Alyssa Alexander [00:52:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] Do you think that's even a viable theory?

Alyssa Alexander [00:52:57] Well, I mean, especially regardless of whether or not they still follow that rule now, that's what they grew up believing. And I'm sure, like, that messaging doesn't just go away, that it's your responsibility to like, that the other person's. That the other person's sexuality is your own responsibility. Which I think kind of goes back to what Sam was saying a while ago, which is each person should be able to own their own sexuality. And so she feels the pressure to not only heal her own sexual trauma, but also she's in charge of Jason's sexuality and he's also in charge of hers. And so, like, he might feel like he's Failing. He has not said this, so this could be just completely reading into it. But, like, he may be thinking, like, you know, am I doing something wrong? Why am. Like, am I. You know, he tries to do this, like, light, sexy talk. It's not received well. I feel like you just add these layers of. Also you have to take care of each other 100% of the time. Sexually is also not going to make it sexy either, because now it's a job, now it's a choreography.

Samantha Shelley [00:53:57] He does seem like a man who's willing to do anything to sort of make this relationship work. Like, the way he seems to interact with her throughout the season, I'm like, if there's something he could be doing, I bet he'd be doing it.

Alyssa Alexander [00:54:10] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:11] Like, yeah. And you can see him trying so hard not to be selfish and entitled and like, he knows how it will

Alyssa Alexander [00:54:21] come across, I think.

Guest 2 [00:54:22] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:22] I mean, it's hard to know that line between PR and. But it does kind of seem like his personality to be like a big caretaker. And also, I mean, like, what would make you attracted to a 16 year old at 21? Presumably you've got some kind of savior complex in there that, like, lends itself to you being a caretaker. That's a whole other thing. But. Yeah, I forgot why I was even talking about that.

John Dehlin [00:54:42] What's this next clip about?

Alyssa Alexander [00:54:44] Okay, let's see.

John Dehlin [00:54:46] Episode. Episode 7, Jace and Taylor Convoy.

Alyssa Alexander [00:54:49] Oh, yes. This is interesting.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:50] Is this them talking by the river? Yeah, I was going to bring that up.

Alyssa Alexander [00:54:53] Okay, just play it. We'll give context.

John Dehlin [00:54:55] Okay, this is Jace and Taylor by the river, right?

Alyssa Alexander [00:55:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] All right.

Guest [00:55:02] I know that Michaela is going to take time to get there, but sometimes it is like maybe a little bit of jealousy there where I see you and Dakota have like this great sexual chemistry, Right?

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [00:55:13] Yeah.

Guest [00:55:14] And so I'm like, I do long for that in Michaela and I's relationship. And I think that we can get there too. And it's just going to take me being patient.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [00:55:22] Everything you guys have over just like freaking the sex life. I, like, long for that. Plus, like a good relationship.

Guest [00:55:29] Always looking at what you don't have.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] Does anybody find that huge fountain?

Samantha Shelley [00:55:38] What's the symbolism there?

Alyssa Alexander [00:55:41] He's like, I have this great spot for you guys.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:47] But so, John, in case you don't know, Taylor and Dakota, they're sort of like, well, they're not officially together. They're not married. They had a baby together. Right. You remember that from.

John Dehlin [00:55:57] Oh, yeah. And I thought they broke up. I've seen that they did.

Samantha Shelley [00:56:00] So they are broken up during Stagecoach, but they sleep together on one of the nights, like, she, like, texts him and is like, you up and he goes into her room. They clearly have a very fun night together. And it's. I just think this is such a perfect condemnation of purity culture in certain ways, because Taylor and Dakota are just a toxic couple, right? Like, by. By most measures. And yet they do seem to have this really genuine sexual chemistry, which is, you know, we're not crazy at all. When you understand eroticism, like the forbidden or like the toxic can, like, so easily be, you know, a huge turn on for people. And then Jace is the person in the marriage doing everything right, Doing, you know, doing things the Mormon way. And his wife just could not want him less. Which just goes to show, I mean, it's kind of a. I mean, it's sort of a Mormon belief that if you follow all the rules and do things God's way, then that's how you'll have the best sex life. Right. But the show shows us that like, yeah, married Mormon couples aren't having, like, the best sex out of any demographic. That's.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] This. This may betray my own, I don't know, template to some degree, but, like, I can't imagine being attracted sexually to somebody that was unsafe. Like, for me, I think I experience attraction when I feel very connected emotionally and safe with the person. So this idea of, like, I've thrown stuff at him, he's throwing stuff at me, we scream at each other. Like, I. That. I guess for some you're saying that can be arousing.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:35] Well, I mean, yeah, obviously.

John Dehlin [00:57:36] Like, what about needing emotional connection and safety as a precursor to sexual.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:45] Oh, no, that's obviously healthier. Right. But Taylor and Dakota are both. I mean, they've both struggled with addiction. They're both people who clearly have heinous relational histories. So, yeah, I mean, that's kind of what happens when you have like a dysfunctional, you know, attachment style or dysfunctional ways of relating to. It's like to her, Dakota kind of is like this familiar. It's familiar. You know, it's like that we seek a lot of things psychologically because they're familiar rather than safe.

John Dehlin [00:58:13] Interesting.

Alyssa Alexander [00:58:14] This, I thought, was just an interesting moment. Well, it happens at Stagecoach, which is at this. The same evening, presumably. I don't know how many nights they were there, but for the sake of the show, it's the same night where Dakota and Taylor hook up, which is the same night that Jason, Michaela fail to and it is just like a really interesting way that we see like both extremes of purity culture in completely unhealthy ways. Like neither of them, none of the four of them are in a good spot with their respective partners. And Taylor and Dakota, obviously, terrible, super toxic relationship. They got pregnant and now things are going to be, are extra complicated and things will blow up more as the season goes. But they, they are sexually compatible. And then Jason, Michaela, like, like what you've been saying, have been following the rules, have this family and things still aren't working. And it seems like in both ways purity culture has caused their sexual lives to come out a little bit sideways and lead to unhealthy relationships. And they're both jealous of the other person, which is interesting because neither of them are in a very good spot, but they just kind of are like reaching for the exact opposite end of the spectrum. And nobody in the group really has seemed to figure out a way to have just like a functioning, healthy adult relationship.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:30] Macy and Jacob. Yeah, from what she said.

Alyssa Alexander [00:59:33] But that's even still coming off the back of a lot of trauma for Macy. So she had to kind of, I think like their relationship seems healthy, but it is still like built off of something unhealthy.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:46] Yeah. And just thinking, I mean, speaking to your safety question, John, like our, I mean something that's so problematic about purity culture is it doesn't encourage people to just like, explore their own desires in their own heads, you know, and like desire, there's so much valuable data in our desires and like what we're attracted to at one time in our lives is not going to be the same as what we're attracted to later on in our lives. Just thinking about the fact that she was 16 as well, I'm like, that phenomenon is sort of supercharged given that. But Taylor, I mean, having the desire to invite Taylor into Dakota. Sorry, into her room, even though they've got this like really toxic thing going on, that is her having this desire for safety and closeness and companionship. It's just that she hasn't, she doesn't seem to have. In that moment, she's not realizing like, it's not going to come from him or it's got to come from you first go. Or whatever.

The Difficulty of Marriage and Early Parenthood

John Dehlin [01:00:46] I think one thing that also just bears mentioning here is just how difficult marriage is and how difficult. You know, I, I look around and I, I have a hard time finding any marriage that is either healthy or if it's healthy, hasn't had major eras of unhealthiness or, or trauma or high levels of conflict. Why do you think that's. Huh?

Samantha Shelley [01:01:18] Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] No, go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:19] I was just gonna say why do you think that is? Like, what do you think it's something about marriage itself? Or.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] I mean, yeah, obviously, and this is stuff you and I've talked about and others have talked about. Like, I just think there's something at the very core which is, I think all of civilization is trying to move us from the caves to domestic life. And that's a, that's a pretty big journey for. We're basically animals, I hate to say it. We're gorillas, we're, you know, whatever, who lost hair and evolved and got sophisticated brains and we're trying to do non animal things. And I think living in a suburban home with one spouse, sexual partner, having these corporate jobs or staying home and taking care of the kids, with all the pressures and complexities of media and of family structures, et cetera, I think it's just incredibly hard, period to try. And I don't think we're wired for how we're trying to live. And 19th and 20th century, sort of Victorian, suburban Mormonism slash America. That's my first take. We can drill into different aspects of that.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:38] But no, I think you're spot on. Like, we, we try and replace a whole village with a spouse. And that is obviously absurd and going to be a huge lift. And I. Yeah, I don't know. I think a lot of our ideas about marriage or long term partnership in our society is sort of based on a lot of like, fantastical thinking. And I think like, true compatibility is pretty rare. I don't know. Like, I mean, clearly, I mean, it's a spectrum, right? So, so maybe that's not the right way to say it.

John Dehlin [01:03:11] I mean, half, half of marriages end in divorce. Probably 40% of first marriages end in divorce. But that's, that's just the ones that fail by divorce. And not all divorce is failure because sometimes divorce is really healthy. But that leaves 60% of first marriages not getting divorced. And then how many of those are really, really fulfilled and healthy and happy? It's. The numbers aren't great. Alyssa, I want to get you in here.

Alyssa Alexander [01:03:36] Yeah, I was just thinking just about Michaela and Jason particular, how just as far as first marriages go. Again, we just keep going back to Michaela being 16 when she got pregnant because it just feels like such a big foundation to their relationship. But I think like, these relationships can come in seasons if they are planning on being in it. I mean, they're going to be in each other's lives forever because now they have four children together. So they will need to have at least some sort of relationship, hopefully. And I think it will just be interesting to see, like, if they're planning on recognizing like we're in a dip season and hopefully maybe once we're not filming the show, maybe, hopefully once we're not freshly postpartum, we can kind of try to build back up. But I think a lot of that's going probably is going to depend on if their foundation has something that they can build or I mean, honestly, they probably didn't even really have too much of a foundation because they were so young. But do they have compatibility that they can start to build something fresh for kids? And it seems like they might be in a position where they're building a relationship backwards, where now they have four children and then they kind of have to start from scratch. So.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:45] And it's so hard once you've, I mean, because they've been together or I suppose like nine years now. And it's. I feel like something that is hard with marriage, with long term partnership is it's so easy for people to get locked into these roles and then they're thumbs up in each other. But once you get locked into certain roles where there's sort of this rule book that you've co created about how your relationship generally functions, the dynamic you have, like who kind of takes control in what situations, who's doing most of the care, whose feelings matter most in the relationship, seems to be Michaela's, as far as I can tell. Jace, as I keep saying, just seems to be such a classic caretaker type. It can be quite hard even if you maybe realize that your relationship has been codependent in unhealthy ways, and it's pretty hard to then move towards healthy interdependence because you just got such like so much wiring together. And sometimes it's gonna just be easier with a new person. But when there's kids involved, obviously, like that's the outcome nobody wants. But I just look at the situation and I'm like, what does Jace ultimately want to have sex with Michaela, it sounds like, or at least that's something he wants to do. What does she want to not have sex with Jace? Well, what's the natural outcome of that? It's like he. Either he changes her into someone who wants to have sex with him or divorce on her end. So like, no wonder she's like wanting it to just because she doesn't want to get divorced, but she doesn't want to have sex with them. So she's just like in an impossible situation.

Alyssa Alexander [01:06:23] So she wants to just kind of kick the can on that a little bit, which is why it seems like possibly. And again, the logistics of having a new baby makes this all complicated. But even having a separation, not a divorce.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:34] Yeah, per se.

Alyssa Alexander [01:06:35] But even just have. Giving them both time to like.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:37] I think that's such a good place

Alyssa Alexander [01:06:38] to have some time to breathe, you know, and figure out if this is. I think that would just take some of the pressure off. And then if they were able to actually make decisions and consider what they actually want, maybe that would. Maybe Jace wouldn't feel like a 10 anymore. Maybe she wouldn't feel like a 1 anymore. If they also just had a little space and to figure it out. And then maybe they'd come back together and be happy and healthy.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:01] Because, you know, sometimes after, like when two people break up and maybe this is something that Taylor has experienced that's kind of kept her going back to Dakota. But sometimes when you break up with someone, there's just this radical truth telling that can happen in that space where you're like separating and figuring out the breakup. And sometimes that can really draw people back together. Which is why I think, like, separation, again, separation is not really a Mormon thing that, you know, Mormons aren't generally like, yeah, just have a separation period with your spouse. I mean, that's like. That would be pretty nuts, at least in my experience of Mormonism. But I do think that's kind of a brilliant idea.

John Dehlin [01:07:37] I'll also note one interesting irony here that's related specifically to secret lives of Mormon wives. On the one hand, it's really. Is it. Is it fair to say it's unethical that these really complex, trauma informed, high conflict sort of situations are trying to be worked out on national international television? Like that is. Is it fair to say it's unethical? I'm grateful that they're doing it because they're bringing light to very common, typical Mormon issues. On the other hand, if we think of these people as humans, it feels almost borderline unethical slash abusive. To be putting, for example, Michaela, but not just Michaela, Jace as well through this on national television, because it's almost more guaranteed to fail now that the cameras are on. Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:34] Yeah, I think you've got a really solid point. And I think reality TV can be this weird kind of. I don't. I don't know what the word is, but it can really trigger a lot of awakening in the cast members that they didn't anticipate going in. But I just think any kind of awakening happens through grace. Happens kind of randomly. Like, you're lucky if you. In my opinion, you're, like, lucky if you're a Mormon and you wake up one day and something happens to trigger your. To trigger a faith crisis. And most people don't choose that. Like, it's just something that happens that a lot of us would consider ourselves very lucky happened to us. And I feel like that's maybe a situation like this for them where, for better or for worse, this show is revealing the ways that their lives aren't rooted in truth. And I'm such a big fan of when things just feel so impossible in life or when you're at any kind of crossroads or whatever, just radically tell the truth and then see how life arranges itself around you. And my. What stresses me out so much with couples like Michaela and Jace just staying together with these issues for years and years and years with, like, no real progress is like, it's. It does demand dishonesty. Like, if ever. It's. If she's really honest with herself and. And she kind of was in the show, it's like, she doesn't want to have sex with Jace. So it's like, what if she could just fully embrace that truth without anyone trying to make her change it? That's just what stresses me out, is how much a woman with sexual trauma is saying, I don't want to have sex. And everyone's like, okay, what can we do to get you to want to. Yeah, I just think that's such a flawed way to go about it and is like, yeah, I do think it's antithetical to true sexual healing.

John Dehlin [01:10:17] And you could argue Jace is saying, I want a partner who wants to have sex with me. And you could say the same thing. He should maybe go find it.

Samantha Shelley [01:10:24] But, yeah, he completely agree. Like, I fully see how it's so tough with the kids, but I think healthy co parenting, to me, seems more of a possibility than them fixing whatever that is. I don't know, because I'm not them.

John Dehlin [01:10:40] But this also does speak to the Mormon proclivity for women to get pregnant so young and have so many kids so early, which the church encourages. The church wants, but I don't think they provide the education and the healthy, normative formative experiences to make early marriages have a high likelihood of success. In fact, take Mormonism out of it. My understanding of the Social science research is the older you get married and the older you have kids, the healthier the marriage is. And the healthier, the better the parents are, the older you are, not younger. The irony that I was going to say the second part to the irony of the ethics of Secret Woman, Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is that at least Michaela is not going to be like most Mormon women who have zero education and zero career. I don't know how much of an education Michaela has, but because of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, this marriage may not work out. But she will have a fantastic income, probably a high multiple of anything Jace will ever have.

Alyssa Alexander [01:11:48] She'll be financially dependent on him.

Samantha Shelley [01:11:50] Yeah, it would be very.

John Dehlin [01:11:50] She will or she won't.

Alyssa Alexander [01:11:51] She won't.

Samantha Shelley [01:11:52] She won't. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:53] And he might be dependent on her. Like, he might have a very favorable.

Alyssa Alexander [01:11:56] The power dynamics are flipping there a little bit.

Samantha Shelley [01:11:59] Yeah. It's going to be interesting to see all that play out because yet she has the resources for them to. To break up at this point. You know, I mean, even just in terms of childcare, I mean, they can afford to pay for as much childcare as they want. And.

John Dehlin [01:12:14] And I'm saying that's a good thing relative to most Mormon women that I see get divorced.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:19] They have no education, no career, no prospects, multiple kids, and a husband that it wants to fight for every penny in the divorce. You know, it's rough.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:30] So.

Alyssa Alexander [01:12:30] But ultimately, I. I feel like it's just worth mentioning again that even just the fact that she's been pregnant and postpartum hormonally, that lowers your sex drive because it makes your body not want to have more babies evolutionarily or whatever. I can't remember what hormone it is, but it just feels like because they've had four kids in nine years and that's at least half of their time together that she's been at least pregnant and then postpartum and then perhaps breastfeeding, it just doesn't even feel like it's a fair template to consider whether or not they're sexually compatible because there has been so little amount of time within that that she has not been pregnant or breastfeeding, which is going to impact work hormonally for her to even, like, know, because she's like, I'm a one. Well, she's also six months pregnant right now and before. And she's been doing that this whole time.

John Dehlin [01:13:24] Yes, it's.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:24] But I will say, given that it is also clearly an emotional connection issue, too, like it Makes me sad that Jace is in a position where he's having to as carefully as he possibly can be, like, ah, like intimacy is important to me in a marriage. Which it's like that's. That should be so 101, you know, like this. I mean, I definitely don't think people should go into marriages quickly. Certainly not like the way they did. So.

John Dehlin [01:13:53] And yet how stereotypical is it for Mormons to be taught that any two worthy, righteous Mormons can make a marriage work?

Alyssa Alexander [01:14:02] He said that?

John Dehlin [01:14:03] Yeah. All right, well, let's go. I, I think, I hope Jason, Michaela watch this episode. They're getting a lot of really good insight.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:11] They do not watch this story, are dealing with that. Yes, it's as much as I like, I. I get that the marriage is hard thing is just sort of an interesting discussion to me. Sorry, I'll try and make this quick. But I just think, and this is what purity culture type marriages just like don't think this way at all. Like life is hard. So because of that, relationships, you know, have challenges. But to me, I mean, I don't have kids, so I like recognize my stress, privilege and that. But I've been with Jared for nearly eight years now and at no point would I say like, partnership with Jarrod is hard. It's like life can be hard, but it's easier because I'm with him. And it's like, why be with someone if they don't make your life easier? Like again, I know that conflict and intimate relationships, that's inevitable. So I'm not talking about like a conflict free existence or anything, but I just think, why be with someone if it's like, I look at Jason, Michaela and it just seems like they're two people whose souls are like yearning for something that is not this, but this is the only thing that they know how to try and fix.

John Dehlin [01:15:20] And I don't think it's arguable that Mormon marriages are happier on average than non Mormon marriages. I don't think. Yeah. So it's a mess. All right, the next clip is Michaela feeling pressure, guilt around sex life.

Alyssa Alexander [01:15:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:37] Do you want to set this up?

Alyssa Alexander [01:15:39] No. I mean, and I. We could even. Do we feel like we have more we can say about Michaela and Jay?

Samantha Shelley [01:15:46] I can do three more hours just on them.

John Dehlin [01:15:48] I still want to rush it. If there are the good clips. I want to. Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:15:51] Well, let's watch the clip so we can see. We can see if there's more.

John Dehlin [01:15:53] Okay.

Alyssa Alexander [01:15:54] We have addressed. We've got two we have nothing to say.

John Dehlin [01:15:57] All right, we'll play both clips back to back.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [01:15:59] Maybe I feel a lot of pressure and guilt around my marriage and our sex life right now because I feel like I have a lot of broken pieces that I haven't fixed yet, even though I know that it comes from the abuse and the way I was raised. I think growing up in the church, I'm always trying to chase this idea of being a person, perfect wife or being perfect for him or. Yeah, it just never feels attainable.

John Dehlin [01:16:27] Yeah, I do think we've covered that. But you're. Go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [01:16:34] Well, her saying, we're really struggling with our sex life right now and, you know, intimacy. And then she says, even though I know it comes from the abuse and, I mean, obviously abuse is going to impact her entire life. How could it not? But I still think it's. That, to me, sounds a little bit like someone just trying to convince themselves, like, oh, if I can just heal this abuse, abused, broken piece of me. She referred to herself as broken, then our sex life will be great. I just think that that is, like, such. That's just a theory that may or may not turn out to be true. But you can see that there's this, like, desperation to believe that it's true because the alternative is too hard to think about. But I just think there's usually a lot of really useful data in what we're afraid to even think about as a possibility. And the fact that in her situation, I'm sure she doesn't feel able to really consider the alternative. I just think that's going to make the healing so much harder because you can't really heal with the set outcome in mind relationally.

John Dehlin [01:17:38] No, Brains don't work that way.

Alyssa Alexander [01:17:39] Usually Mormon research works that way, though. Start with the conclusion and then try to find everything back to that.

Samantha Shelley [01:17:48] So true.

John Dehlin [01:17:50] All right, should we go to the final. This is the final clip of.

Alyssa Alexander [01:17:52] Of that.

John Dehlin [01:17:53] Michaela's and Jace's sex life. Sexual dysfunction. All right, let's play it.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [01:18:00] For me, it just makes me feel pressure of, like, okay, this is my issue.

Samantha Shelley [01:18:04] I have to fix this.

Guest [01:18:05] I really don't want you to feel that way either when you say it's my fault. Like, I hate that. Because at the end of the day, I don't think it's your fault. I think it's someone else's fault that's, you know, took things and stole things from you. And if I'm frustrated, I'm frustrating at those people. I'm not frustrated with you. You know, and I'm frustrated at the problem, and I think you're doing a really good job.

John Dehlin [01:18:27] Her. I just have to say her. Her body language. She couldn't, like, be farther away from

Samantha Shelley [01:18:33] him, like, as it's a full body. No. For this man. Yeah.

Guest [01:18:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:38] She's just, like, not looking. Looking at him, leaning away from him. This is not. I don't see good body language there. Sorry.

Samantha Shelley [01:18:46] It's like, what percentage of people generally in life are you going to want to have sex with? Very few. So I just think, what are the chances that even if she heals this man that she met at 16, she'll suddenly want to have sex with them three times a day?

John Dehlin [01:19:01] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:19:01] And it's hard because you can tell that he's trying so hard to be a good husband. And I think he's being very sweet, but it's still being framed as like. Like what we've been saying. Like, it's this problem to solve. It's your issue. It's just. And. And of course, again, the trauma is. That is a problem.

John Dehlin [01:19:18] But.

Alyssa Alexander [01:19:19] But we are kind of going in with that idea, Sam, that, like, once this trauma is fixed, we're both gonna have the exact same libido, and that libido will probably be a 10, and this is gonna be great. And it's just hard.

Samantha Shelley [01:19:31] I mean, I bet he'd be happy with a 4 at this point. Oh, it's so hard to watch.

Alyssa Alexander [01:19:37] It does kind of seem like part of what makes it so complex. And who knows? It could be, like, a chicken or the egg situation. But they're not really having a lot of other connection. Like, I do. Oh, I. I did think it was interesting, kind of going back to that shots thing that you mentioned earlier, Sam. Like, so. So they have a fight in the shower as what every couple does.

Samantha Shelley [01:19:57] And so they're showering together when they're having that fight. I couldn't tell.

Alyssa Alexander [01:20:00] So I don't know for sure, but. So they don't have sex. But they did shower together, presumably. Regardless, they get in an argument and they're frustrated. Michaela's frustrated because she feels like Jay's Stagecoach because they didn't have sex. He was. I think she interpreted it maybe as pouting, but he was, like, not interacting with her, but it seemed like he was like, well, she didn't have sex, so I'm just going to, like, take the pressure off and just hang with my boys. And it just seemed like, even relationally, them not having sex was not a neutral. Like, well, but it didn't happen today. She seemed to really internalize. We didn't do this thing. And now I feel bad. And now I have to. Now I feel bummed. And he's like, we didn't do this thing. So now I'm going to, like, do a shot. Do a shot and, like, hang out with this. I don't have any other way of, like, trying. I'm not going to try to connect with her another way. I'm just going to, like, pivot. And I can. I can totally see why she'd be offended. And I can also see why he's feeling like maybe I'll just take a step back. And it's just. They're clearly not even, like, emotionally.

Samantha Shelley [01:21:04] It was an acting out shot for sure. Like, that's a man who's just desperate for some kind of release from it all. And I. Yeah, he probably has a good amount of data show it. Like, it doesn't seem like connection with her is really on the cards, just generally speaking at this point.

Mikaela and Jace Separate and Divorce

John Dehlin [01:21:22] Yeah, well, we've been really comprehensive about Jason Michaela, I think. But also this is so important, though, like, very Mormon.

Alyssa Alexander [01:21:29] It is.

Samantha Shelley [01:21:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:30] This is very Mormon. And because I tend to be. Want to be comprehensive, we haven't even mentioned the Mormon doctrine of eternal families and eternal marriage. That makes it so. You may be in a horrible marriage, super dysfunctional, but you're taught that the whole purpose you exist is to find your eternal companion and marry them. And you're not just married for a year or 10 years or 20 years or 50 years. You are supposed to have that marriage last into the eternities. And that just. That doesn't leave couples with the room to sometimes break it off. Like, sometimes a couple can get married a year or two and all of a sudden realize, you know, we're not a good fit. And what's wrong with. Shouldn't we encourage and even celebrate an early into a marriage without kids yet if it leads to them finding a better match later and then having kids, be raised in a healthier. Y' all are both, like, going like this. Am I preaching to the choir? Y' all feel free to. Y' all feel free to speak up.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:41] This is very progressive for you, John, advocating divorce.

John Dehlin [01:22:45] It's not that I'm advocating divorce. People, I'll say that they're like, you guys want porn? Masturbating divorced people. That's not what we're saying. Right. But y'. All, y' all literally maybe have lived some of this, but I don't know what you want to share?

Samantha Shelley [01:22:59] So we. Did you have kids when you got divorced?

Guest 2 [01:23:01] No.

Samantha Shelley [01:23:02] Okay.

Guest 2 [01:23:02] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:23:02] So we both got divorced when we didn't have kids. Oh, my God. Is the. It's, like, absurd to imagine having not got divorced? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:23:12] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:23:12] The other thing I'll say is, even though Jason Michaela. Yes. It's a very Mormon story, you can so see how Mormonism has influenced the. Everything for them. I also think probably a ton of people watching who have no connection to Mormonism will really relate to it as well or will see themselves in one or both of them. Because I do think it. I mean, we're in a page. We've all grown up in a patriarchal society. Generally speaking, it's a spectrum. But, you know, we've all grown up with varying degrees of purity culture. I mean, there's a. There's. There's aspects of purity culture, not the Mormon extreme, but even in just sort of regular secular society, like, I really just think shame around our desires is such a huge problem because anything we try and repress comes out in more dysfunctional ways. I think there's so many ways that we as humans are scared of our desires because desire is such a. It's such a powerful life force. Like, it's. It, like, can cause us to upend our, you know, completely change our lives or whatever. And I think it's so human to be afraid of that sometimes and want to be like, no, I need to contain my life in this way that I've kind of scripted and orchestrated in advance. And we want to believe that our lives can sort of be perfectly constructed by us. And that's just not really true. And I really feel like the way that we stop being so dysfunctional is by embracing desire more. Not through the lens of we're going to do every single thing we have a desire to do, but being able to take honest inventory of our desires and be like, what desires are coming up constantly and have never left. And maybe there's obviously probably more significant data in those than just some fleeting desire you have on one day. I don't know. There's a lot there. But I do think the Jason Michaela thing is interesting to me because I just think it's a societal problem as much as it's a Mormon one, which

Alyssa Alexander [01:25:05] is partially why I think the show is so great. Is. I mean, I think, like, reality TV generally is a bit of a caricature of real life. I mean, we can, of course, there's going to be elements that are going to be exaggerated for tv. And again, that's where the caricature comes in. But all of the elements are elements that are like real human experiences, real human stories. And I think, yeah, Mormonism, so many people are going to be able to see the Mormon story of sexually dysfunctional relationship and of childhood sexual trauma and of sexual trauma, period, and of like, relationship dynamics. Despite the potential ethical questions we have on the way that this show was produced and the real life ramifications, the connection that people have is very real. And I think that's partially why he's blown up so much and why people love it is they're. They're gawking a little bit at the, at the oddities of it, but they're also seeing themselves in these women and in these stories.

John Dehlin [01:25:58] But I think it also, I think the question that I often get is why Mormons? Why Mormon wives? Why not Presbyterian wives or Lutheran wives or Baptist wives or, you know, progressive Jewish wives? I think the answer is because Mormons take everything to 11. Like, yes, the Mormon story is the human story, but also aside from like Scientologists and Joe's witnesses and like Hasidic Jews, Mormons tend to take things to 11. Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:27] And that's what, that's what makes about those other groups.

John Dehlin [01:26:31] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:31] You know.

John Dehlin [01:26:31] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:32] I've seen shows about progress. I can't remember what it. There was a show about progressive Jews.

John Dehlin [01:26:36] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:36] That I watched that was like reality, what it's called.

Alyssa Alexander [01:26:39] We say that, like, this show is a caricature of Mormons. Mormonism is like a caricature of like regular people.

John Dehlin [01:26:44] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:26:45] We're just like slightly more dramatic and, and intense and a little bit. Everything's a little bit off.

John Dehlin [01:26:52] And good looking. And good looking. Alyssa.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:56] And entertaining.

Alyssa Alexander [01:26:57] That's what.

John Dehlin [01:26:58] And good dancers.

Alyssa Alexander [01:27:00] Really good dancers.

Samantha Shelley [01:27:01] Really good ballet 101 graduates.

Reunion: Confronting Trauma and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [01:27:07] All right, so let's go ahead and go to the reunion because is the reunion kind of the capstone of the story of Michaela?

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [01:27:15] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:27:15] All I really wanted to know it on the reunion is, well, Stacy, the host was like, so are you guys. Have you fixed your sex issues? And I was like, she's like eight weeks postpartum here. And like, they're not even. Can't. She's not even medically cleared to have sex for six weeks. So.

Samantha Shelley [01:27:34] Yeah, it's like, what, in the last few days? No, exactly.

Alyssa Alexander [01:27:37] So anyway, that was just kind of, I mean, I guess working through it, but. And they're a larger connection. I'm sure she says that they're working on it. But the main takeaway I thought with the reunion was just there was more reveal on sexual trauma. Both Jen and Jesse revealed that they've been sexually assaulted at some point in their life. And neither of those stories have come up in the show up to this point, which I think, I think rounds us out at nearly every woman on the show, which I think for the Mormon Church that's not a good optics that we can see that. I mean the, the rates of women who are sexually assaulted is like what, two out one out of three? But on this show it's like eight out of nine. So we take already high rates and we've exacerbated them exponentially. Connor opens up a little bit about his own experience with, with sexual assault. And I thought this was interesting. He said that that made him struggle with intimacy and polarizing ways. He went from not wanting sex at all to hypersexuality. And I think that's an experience that probably a lot of survivors of sexual abuse would relate to. So I just kind of wanted to note.

Samantha Shelley [01:28:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:56] That you know, we talk about homosexuality, we talk about celibacy, we talk about asexuality, we talk about all sorts of things. We don't necessarily talk about some people maybe not being a good fit for marriage.

Samantha Shelley [01:29:14] Yeah, 100%.

John Dehlin [01:29:16] Like I don't even think that in my mind. I think everybody should be married. Right. And that's even a separate question from non monogamy. Like there's probably people that are really well suited for monogamy and marriage. And then there's probably some percentage of people that still want to be married but probably aren't well suited for monogamy. And that just the numbers would have to demand that there's some people that just aren't a good fit for marriage. And yet in Mormonism, there's no place in Mormonism for someone that doesn't want to get married. They're going to just always feel every Sunday like they're failing God's plan.

Alyssa Alexander [01:29:53] Not only is there not a place for people that don't want to get married, you have to get married, you have to have children, and you have to do it all very young. It's just such a narrow role to fit into. And it's a role that works for some people, but there's so many people that it doesn't. And we can see on the show that that's the route that every single one of them has, has tried, that has worked to varying degrees.

Samantha Shelley [01:30:15] It's been interesting because as I said, I've been with my partner for eight years now and we're not married because we just, I don't know, the concept of marriage just doesn't really hold much weight to me. Maybe it would be different if we were trying to start a family or something. But it's been interesting over the years, the number of people that will say, oh, do you think you'll get married? Or, you know, marriage is like a big question to them. And even though me and Jared have been in partnership for eight years, living together for half of that time, we have like a very healthy, functional, joyful relationship that's very low conflict. It's like that is almost less important to them than this just like concept of marriage that they have in their head. And like, really, I mean, marriage is a commitment, I guess, at its core. Right. And you're kind of putting faith in this idea that you can know in advance that someone will be your person forever, essentially. And I feel like in my relationship it's like the, that the data, the reasons to believe that we'll be together forever have sort of stacked up over time. And I feel like a lot of

Alyssa Alexander [01:31:18] people,

Samantha Shelley [01:31:20] they, it's kind of like a, a fantasy based idea to think that you can sort of bypass the need for time to give you that data, you know. So I feel like for a lot of couples getting, I mean, when I got married at 22, I like fully thought I'm going to be with this person forever, like, based on what? You know, it's like we, a lot of our ideas about marriage, there's quite a lot of fantasy in there and like these, just these beliefs that you can know things in advance that you can't know. And like, I think anyone who's been in, I'm sure you would say, like you've been in a long, really long

John Dehlin [01:31:52] term marriage, 32, 33 years.

Samantha Shelley [01:31:56] Yeah. But you didn't know at the beginning what it was going to take necessarily.

John Dehlin [01:32:01] No, no way.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:02] You know, like the number of iterations of marriage that you've had to go through.

John Dehlin [01:32:05] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:05] It's like you just happen to be people.

John Dehlin [01:32:07] We're like on our sixth marriage.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:08] Yeah, exactly, exactly. But it's like we, I think it's so scary how we teach young people that like fantasy based idea that you can know. It's like it's kind of this, it's almost to me like kind of like an emotional laziness or like a relational laziness that we just want to think, oh, well, God can tell you two Months in, this is your person forever. It's like now put in the time, like be with them year after year. You know that you, you learn so much and you build so much together over time. But I think when, when I like asked you earlier. Oh, do you think there's something inherent about marriage that seems to make it so hard? Because you always just hear married people being like, marriage is so hard. And it's like, what actually is marriage? It's just like two people in a long term relationship or not even long term. Where was I going with this point? I just wonder if there's something cognitively about for me at least not being married. At no point is there any pressure. It's like in theory I could leave tomorrow, which I know to some people sounds very unromantic, but it's like, yeah, but I'd never leave tomorrow because this is like the love of my life. And I love, love the life that we've built together weirdly. And I just think built is like the key word.

John Dehlin [01:33:17] One of the weird, powerful, beautiful realizations Margi and I had in one of our unravelings of our marriage and then rebuilding of our marriage was we, we both had to reject this idea that we for sure are going to be together forever. And once both of us said no, like, you know, I'm gonna wake up every day and be with you if I want to and then I'm gonna see how you're treating me. And my desire to be with you is probably gonna be impacted by how well you're treating me.

Samantha Shelley [01:33:56] Like that's healthy.

John Dehlin [01:33:57] We'll see. We'll see how things go. But it's kind of a day to day thing. Weirdly, the minute that we both killed the together for the rest of our life sort of dynamic, that's what I think is and decided that we were gonna just day by day, we're happier together. We're more attracted to each other.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:16] And we're more, weirdly, we're more committed to each other.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:19] Yes.

Alyssa Alexander [01:34:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:34:20] Yeah. That's how it's been for us.

Alyssa Alexander [01:34:22] I heard something at one point that was like, if you get rid of the idea, like think of divorce as always an option or breaking up is always an option. If we tend to take some of our, like a really fragile glass vase and we say this will never break, this will never be broken. And then you move houses, you're much more likely to like, if you're saying this glass is never going to be broken, you're going to be much more, you're going to be much less careful with it. You're going to be much more willing to just toss it around. But if you say, this glass vase is extremely fragile, I need to protect it, I need to take care of it, you're probably going to take much better care of it. And I think that, like, when we look at relationships, that can. Can be really helpful also something to take care of and, and look at as something that is fragile, and you'll most likely be able to take better care of it that way. But it is funny too, when, like, thinking about your relationship that you've been together for eight years, your average Mormon would probably take your relationship much less seriously.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:15] I know.

Alyssa Alexander [01:35:15] Than someone who got married after six months at 18.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:18] I know. And I'm like, so many people put their. Put so much faith in just, again, this concept of marriage. Like, marriage is just an idea. Right. It's like a sort of contract that people, like, come up with and, well, it's kind of laid out already. But, you know, I mean, let's see.

John Dehlin [01:35:33] In Mormonism, it's the proclamation on the family, It's God's anointing.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:37] So I know that for a couple. Right. For all people. Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:40] Someone thinks it's made by God. I mean, you can't really fight that, can you?

John Dehlin [01:35:43] But that's. I mean, they're Mormon wives. Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:45] But isn't it just funny how so many people would think who, you know, have known each other for a year and are married would look at that relationship as somehow stronger, more meaningful, more real than, you know, me being with my partner for eight years when it's like. No, there's like eight years of building that's gone into that. And I'm sure you, as someone who's been with your partner for way longer, you're like eight years, no kids, that's nothing. You know, like, there's just.

John Dehlin [01:36:08] No, no, eight years is a huge accomplishment in my book.

Samantha Shelley [01:36:13] I mean, accomplishment, you know.

John Dehlin [01:36:14] No, it is.

Samantha Shelley [01:36:15] It's an accomplishment.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [01:36:16] It's hard work.

John Dehlin [01:36:18] I think.

Samantha Shelley [01:36:19] I think it's hard work if you're

John Dehlin [01:36:20] abusing each other and miserable. No, it's not an accomplishment. But if you're. I think, in my opinion, if you really are enjoying being together and you've built a life together that's meaningful. Yeah. I think there's a lot of work and effort and accomplishment in that. Maybe for you it's been fun and only fun. I don't know.

Samantha Shelley [01:36:38] I think the work is in how much you yourself have, like, you know, it's self work. Like, me and Jared are both people that have, like, studied ourselves, if that makes sense, and, you know, like, confronted our own shadow sides and reactivity. And, like, obviously reactivity is going to come out in intimate partnerships, and that gives you an opportunity to grow and all that. But, yeah, I mean, I would say it's been like, yeah, it has always been fun, but it's. I guess the accomplishment is just, like, in the individual work that you do that then allows you to come to the table. And the mistake I feel like so many couples make is that in crisis, they don't know whether to be together. They've got all these issues, and that they refuse to leave the table together to try and figure anything out. They're like, we have to stay at this table until we figure this out. And it's like, to speak to your separation idea, it's like, maybe if you guys just went and sat at separate tables for a while, you could figure out a lot more and then you could come. John, I am eternally grateful for when I was going through my divorce and you gave me that Mesh four where you were like, if you're a codependent couple, if one person falls down, you both fall down. But if you're, like, healthily interdependent, you're both standing like this. If one person falls down, yeah, you can, like, help them get back up. But it's not like you're both on the floor. I just, like, think about that constantly.

John Dehlin [01:37:49] I'm getting chills that you remember that.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:51] Yeah, that's. I probably tell someone that analogy, like, once every fortnight. Like that. I thought it was so good that

John Dehlin [01:37:57] was over ramen, right?

Samantha Shelley [01:37:58] Yeah, it was really impactful. I've, like, said that to my coaching clients so many times. Like, that really stuck with me. It's just so simple.

John Dehlin [01:38:05] That was with your former husband, too.

Guest [01:38:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] Y' all were contemplating staying together or not.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:10] At the time. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:11] You've come a long way, Sammy.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:13] Yeah. And honestly, like, I have to give a shout out to a book that changed my life because speaking of that, like, I talk about codependency constantly. And it is so much informed by this book called Inner Bonding by Margaret Paul. If anyone's just, like, dealing with any of this stuff.

Alyssa Alexander [01:38:27] Paul.

John Dehlin [01:38:29] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:29] You are the veil guy.

John Dehlin [01:38:31] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:32] Yeah. But. And also another book that's been really significant for both me and Jared is this book called Conscious Loving the Journey to Healthy Co Commitment, I think it's called. And it's by gay and Kathleen Hendricks. That's also been. It's like all of the stuff in Mormon Wives is also like a codependency issue versus healthy interdependence. And so that's why I just feel like bringing that.

John Dehlin [01:38:53] Love it. We'll make sure Julia includes links to those books in the show Notes. Alyssa, anything?

Alyssa Alexander [01:38:58] No.

John Dehlin [01:38:59] Okay, well, should we move on from Mikaela and Jace?

Alyssa Alexander [01:39:04] I suppose, if we must.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:05] Which one's Mikayla and Jace? Who are they?

John Dehlin [01:39:08] What? We're only an hour and 40 in. All right, the next topic is the Pride event. Go ahead, Alyssa.

The Cast Attends an LGBTQ Pride Event

Alyssa Alexander [01:39:13] Yeah, so I just felt like we touched on this briefly before, but I thought it was worth mentioning a little bit more just when we're considering how Mormon these women are. So in episode eight, they host a Pride event. This was right around the time that the bill passed that was banning pride flags in Utah from being basically anywhere. And so Macy's kind of becomes the spokesperson for this event as a MomTAC event. And I do think it's worth noting that, like many of the active Mormon women go and. Okay. In some ways, the Pride event itself is a little bit cringey. And it seems like they've discovered suits.

Samantha Shelley [01:39:51] Like the full rainbow suits.

Alyssa Alexander [01:39:52] Yeah, they're like full rainbow suits. It seems like they've discovered, like, that gay people exist for the first time. Possibly. They're like, like, wow, like, it must be hard to be gay.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:04] Was it hard coming out to your homophobic family? Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:40:07] And so what I would imagine is, for a lot of the audience would be like, this almost feels like regressive, but I do feel like, given the context, that the current climate is not. We're in like, a conservative anti gay climate in a lot of ways. And so I think, like, them making the decision to host this event or talk about it publicly, you know, they are making a decision to stand with queer people. And so I do think that's worth noting. And they're like, addressing actual policy, which I also found interesting. And I don't feel like that's church policy. Yeah, church policy and legislation. So they're addressing church policy and Utah policy, which I feel like is unique for a reality television show. So, anyway, we can go ahead and watch the clips now. But I just thought that was. This was like just kind of out of nowhere. It was only given, like, a few minutes of the show. I don't really know even what the, like, how this came to be. Anyway, show the clip.

John Dehlin [01:41:04] Yeah, and just to be clear, in Mormonism, it is not okay to be Gay. It is not okay to be same sex married. You can be excommunicated for being same sex married.

Alyssa Alexander [01:41:15] Theoretically, you can't get a temple recommend for even supporting gay marriage. Like, that's one of the temple questions is like, do you support anything that's antithetical to the church?

John Dehlin [01:41:24] Oh, for sure. If you speak up publicly as an advocate for same sex marriage like me, you can get excommunicated. So the other thing I just want to say before we show the clip is that Utah has regressed in terms of its support for LGBT. There were these years leading up to 2015 where there was a broad awareness of an LGBT suicide epidemic in the church. And then we had people like Dan Reynolds, who's ex Mormon, and Tyler Glenn, who's ex Mormon, and lots of other people advocating for LGBTQ people within Mormonism to the point where Utah, I think, became one of the first states to legalize same sex marriage.

Samantha Shelley [01:42:02] I remember when the church gave money to. It was a housing, anti discrimination housing bill.

John Dehlin [01:42:07] And the church, the LDS Church, worked with LGBT advocates in Utah to pass anti discrimination legislation for housing and employment in Utah. So Utah was trending towards more LGBT acceptance, including rainbow flags everywhere. And, you know, the Mormons building bridges. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of Mormons marching in Utah pride, you know, weekends where it was sort of cool to be pro LGBTQ and Mormon. And again, rainbow flags would be flown everywhere in Mormon houses and in non Mormon houses. And then. 2020, right? No, 2015. 20. No. With the. With the recent election, I would say starting a year or two ago.

Samantha Shelley [01:43:01] I see, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:02] Utah, like. Yeah. Started just retrenching to like 10 or 20 years ago, like you said, where they decided to outlaw even the showing of a rainbow flag or a rainbow in schools and businesses, in public places, etc. Right.

Alyssa Alexander [01:43:22] Yeah, yeah. It has felt like a big social regression.

John Dehlin [01:43:25] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [01:43:25] And policy regression.

Samantha Shelley [01:43:27] This is just like how Taylor Swift was such a public liberal during the years that it was really trendy in the zeitgeist. And now we never hear from her about that.

Alyssa Alexander [01:43:35] Wait one.

John Dehlin [01:43:36] You're a Swifty? Are you saying something anti Swifty?

Samantha Shelley [01:43:40] I like. Yeah, I like Taylor Swift. I. But she's not speaking up anymore about progressive issues, which.

Guest [01:43:46] Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:43:47] What does that mean from a billionaire?

Alyssa Alexander [01:43:51] You got to criticize your faves.

John Dehlin [01:43:53] Yeah, no, well, they're exceptions, but I

Samantha Shelley [01:43:55] don't think she's a white supremacist. I don't agree with that discourse, but I think she could be saying some stuff when she isn't.

John Dehlin [01:44:01] All right. Let's play a clip.

Guest 2 [01:44:04] Me and Jacob are both active members of the LDS Church. However, we do not stand with the church's stance on going against the lgbt. LGBTQ community. Jacob actually has a cousin who just came out as gay, and so we are very supportive of him and everyone else in the community. Jacob and I have not been very vocal with our opinions in the past because having strong opinions can kind of come with a lot of criticism and backlash. But going to this Pride event, I have learned actions definitely speak louder than words. Moving forward, I want to be not just a silent supporter, but also more of an active ally for the community.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:37] I mean, Flag is still silent, and

Alyssa Alexander [01:44:39] I'm obsessed with the tiny little flag. It's sweet. It's just, like, funny in the. In the moment.

Samantha Shelley [01:44:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:45] Okay, so what. What are Yalls reactions to when she

Samantha Shelley [01:44:49] said the church's stance on LGBT issues? I'm like, babe, that is the family proclamation to the world. That is kind of the centerpiece of the doctrine. So I wouldn't say, like, all the. All the more believing women on the show. Jen, for example, in that dancer scene, act as if it's just the church's kind of opinion currently. But, I mean, isn't it doctrine that men should marry women?

John Dehlin [01:45:13] Yeah, yeah, no, it's core temple family proclamation, core doctrine. The most important doctrine, probably the church would say today, other than priesthood authority, it's heterosexual marriage in the temple.

Alyssa Alexander [01:45:27] I mean, even, like, Charlie Bird, who the Mormon Church tends to, like, really uplift and promote as like, a current gay Mormon who is still active, I believe, but like, he. They couldn't get married in the temple, and they don't have temple recommends anymore. And, like, it's definitely not just like, their. Their stance, like, their opinion or like, their. It's not just like, oh, it's the old people in the church, their perspective. It is a core part of the church, which is kind of show this dissonance.

Samantha Shelley [01:45:54] That's the whole thing of the temple ceremony, right? Being like, man, woman.

John Dehlin [01:45:58] So does that mean secret? Because I've heard some reports that actually Mormons used to rank lower than Muslims and Wiccans in terms of, like, the absolute lowest respectability in U.S. culture. We were the worst rated religious group of all. And what I've heard is, by some accounts, because of Secret lives of Mormon Wives, we've bumped up a few notches to, like, maybe above Muslims and Wiccans, but still below everybody else. Partly because this show makes Mormons look less weird, look kind of cool. They're Good dancers, they're good looking, they're kind of trendy. And in this case is secretizing Mormon wives giving the world the impression that Mormons are less anti LGBT than they really are.

Alyssa Alexander [01:46:52] Yeah, I was thinking about this. I feel like probably, I mean, in some ways they are being critical of the church and like, and Michaela, not Michaela. Miranda mentions that in a minute. Macy mentions that a couple of times. They both say, Jen, I. And when we had that moment with Ezra from Dancing with the Stars, how he, you know, didn't feel supported within the church as a gay person. But I do think that there is a little bit of pushback. But overall, we do see all of these women attending the pride event, all of them claiming still to like, be active, full believers. Macy talks about she has a temple recommendation. And so I would imagine as a total outsider, you might have. You might be like, yeah, the Mormon Church doesn't accept gay people, but you probably wouldn't have the impression that it is so intensely homophobic and that there is such a high rate of. Of queer suicides.

Samantha Shelley [01:47:47] I also don't know if this is true, but I've heard that that maybe the, the gay Ally stuff on this season was kind of a response to the Internet finding out that basically everyone in the cast except Layla and Miranda is. And it's pretty hard to be in the entertainment industry and for people to think you're a homophobe, which with the Mormonism of it all, that's like a natural conclusion a lot of viewers are going to reach is like, oh, these women are probably all homophobic.

Alyssa Alexander [01:48:13] Which I was also. Well, that came from a comment that Chase made on a post. I don't know necessarily how reliable the narrator Chase is, but that did make me like, like Chase a little bit more.

Samantha Shelley [01:48:23] I've heard that Chase is liberal.

Alyssa Alexander [01:48:25] Yeah, so. But also, I don't know this firsthand. I didn't read. I haven't read yet Macy's book, but apparently within the book she mentions something about how she's like, pro choice. So they were saying, like, with that, just the person that read the book that was commenting on this was saying, like, with that information in mind, it would be difficult to imagine Macy as maga. But regardless, the women have come under attack for being maga, with the exception of Miranda and Layla Chase and possibly Macy, given the content of her book.

Samantha Shelley [01:48:56] But yeah, it's kind of like if you're the number one show on Hulu, to me, it's so. And you're part of a homophobic religion. You got to get ahead of that because that's like a ticking time bomb in terms of like just a massive boycott of the show because everyone's like, hang on a minute, these women are homophobic.

Alyssa Alexander [01:49:11] But it is also interesting that none of them have, like, actually responded against it. So perhaps they haven't seen that as a PR crisis enough to address it head on. They don't want to ostracize MAGA viewership.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:21] Yeah. And maybe they are just magus.

Alyssa Alexander [01:49:24] Yeah.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [01:49:24] So they're just.

Alyssa Alexander [01:49:25] They're not going to deny it.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:27] And we want to let everyone know, as I always like to give on disclaimers, that we want people to feel comfortable watching Mormon stories regardless.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:36] Of your political affiliations or where you fall on the political ideological spectrum. When we talk about MAGA or liberal or whatever, we're just trying to be as descriptive as possible, not trying to say we favor or reject one side or the other. Sorry about that.

Alyssa Alexander [01:49:56] Just describing the comments, the discourse that we're seeing.

John Dehlin [01:50:00] Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:50:02] I mean, I don't favor or reject people. I mean, ideas. Yeah, we've all got our own ideas. But. Yeah, but just thinking of the entertainment industry and how that is so correlated with liberalism. But I would say specifically, specifically, like, gay rights. You know, there are conservatives who are for sure kind of not homopho. You know, there are people that are MAGA that still love gay people in a way that we might consider more liberal. Because I feel like for a lot of people, that's kind of a. I don't know, it's just a big one, you know?

Guest [01:50:30] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:50:30] People can be conservative for a lot of reasons that are like, yeah, not that.

Alyssa Alexander [01:50:36] Yeah, but let's take even the. I'm thinking about what this is going to look like for the church and all of them on their respective faith journeys. And if we. If they're in the entertainment industry, perhaps they'll also be around more people who are queer than they've been around that have been openly queer in. In Utah and in Utah Valley. I wonder if that is also going to. Like, some of the women are going to kind of have to have a little bit more of a reckoning with the church and with the church's quote unquote stance on queer people. Like, you see that with Jen a little bit when she's talking to Ezra. Like, I just feel like people should love everybod and I would imagine, like, if you are as these women are just originally Mormon wives, stay at home moms, and then they're thrust into fame. And with fame means more opportunities, more exposure to other perspectives, that they're just like lot more lives generally. That also, I feel like, is going to be a way for many of them to have a faith crisis. Like, if there's anything that's going to be, like, the. The ultimate moment that is going to cause someone to consider their life and their worldview, I feel like suddenly being flung into a much more expansive world might be that thing. So it will be interesting to see, as these seasons progress, how many of them are going to, like, they're already like Prague, Mo. But it will be interesting to see how many of them leave and are more open about leaving from being on the show and the experience of being on the show.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:04] As someone who's in touch with a lot of people who end up leaving the church, the churches. The LDS Church's position on LGBT people is a huge major reason why tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people have left the church over the past 10 years, 20 years. So it's a thing. So it's cool they're covering it, and maybe it'll help move the needle. But let's go ahead and should play the next clip.

Alyssa Alexander [01:52:32] Let's do it.

John Dehlin [01:52:33] All right. Do you want to set it up or should we just play it?

Alyssa Alexander [01:52:36] Let's just play it.

John Dehlin [01:52:37] Okay.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [01:52:38] Learning more about the LGBTQ community and

Video Clip 2 [01:52:42] the struggles that they face regarding equal rights, it certainly makes me realize how

Video Clip 2 [01:52:47] petty all the drama that the girls get wrapped up in really is.

Video Clip 2 [01:52:50] And I've certainly seen more acceptance within

Video Clip 2 [01:52:54] the Mormon community and the church itself.

Video Clip 2 [01:52:57] However, I think that there is still

Video Clip 2 [01:53:00] a pretty long way to go.

John Dehlin [01:53:04] Yeah. Yeah. They frame it as inequality or lack of acceptance. I think it's a lot deeper than that.

Alyssa Alexander [01:53:13] Yeah. I mean, big doctrinal. And I'm curious what the.

John Dehlin [01:53:18] I mean, it's full rejection of your core essence and being and a pathology, not just a pathologization of your sexuality, a demonization of your sexuality that is tied to eternal damnation, basically.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:39] That's so ungenerous. I feel like we've gone from full demonization to simply pathologization. That's the hardest word.

Alyssa Alexander [01:53:46] I wonder just the way that reality TV is functioning. I wonder, like, how Hulu is responding to, like, the church being mentioned, because the church is kind of like this playful character. They're not really doing any sort of actual criticism of the church. I wonder if they're being told, like, if. If the way that. If there this kind of, like, softness, this. This language, like, stance the language, like lack of acceptance, if some of that is being influenced by producers not wanting to just seen as Miranda's religious.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:20] So it's. And they can't, they can't like really like so many of these women are not like practicing Mormon. So then the show. Yeah, I do. And I've heard from other people that have sort of been involved in like them scouting out new options for spin off shows. Like they, they're, they're trying to keep Mormonism like just the right amount of centered where they don't want to be. Like half of these girls are ex Mormon now and just would probably dunk on the church more if they weren't being filmed. They're like, yeah, I do think they're making them to that line. And I feel like that's honestly why they did the whole Ally thing is because they're like, wait, but the number one show on Hulu being about homophobic church, like that's like kind of a problem for us. I really do think they were like, we have to get ahead of this.

Alyssa Alexander [01:55:03] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:04] Because how can they keep doing. It's like people are kind of willing to not think about it for season one because they don't really know much about the church or these women or, you know, you're just getting introduced. But then the discourse always gets more and more.

Alyssa Alexander [01:55:15] But they're not interested in doing a full religious breakdown. Yeah, Like Mormon stories podcast.

John Dehlin [01:55:21] Yeah, we do full breakdowns. We spend more time commenting on the show than the show has hours.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:28] And that's the beauty of us.

Alyssa Alexander [01:55:30] Exactly. You thought you liked the show. Well, watch us thinking about the show.

Does the Show Capture the Weight of Mormon Issues

John Dehlin [01:55:34] No, in all seriousness, like, there are times where I feel like this isn't portraying how serious and heavy these Mormon issues are. And then on the other hand, I'm like, that's why it's so popular because people don't really get into super heavy, dark, sad, these sorts of themes and topics necessarily or another. And sometimes they do true crime and, and you know, cult dramas, but cold dramas and true crime don't reach the level of secret lives of Mormon wives on average because it's playful and fun and lighter. And so I guess we should be grateful that they're not as heavy handed, ham fisted, at least in part because that democratizes access to these issues.

Samantha Shelley [01:56:20] Yeah. And Hulu knows and like all of us are extremely online know that with anything like this, the real discourse is happening on TikTok where people are doing like the intense breakdowns. Like so many people, Mormon or not, are doing breakdowns of the. The Mormon stuff on this show. Hulu knows that people are going to do that, like, deeper discourse about the show if they just present something light. So it's kind of a win win for them.

Alyssa Alexander [01:56:44] Which has been fascinating, too, to see so many people, like, discovering Mormonism for the first time. It's been a thrill. I have never been so happy to have a TikTok account than I am right now. I should be watching people like, Googling like, what is Mormonism? You know, and be like, there's this thing called these, like, garments. Oh, my gosh. It's amazing. I'm so glad to be next Mormon in this day and age to watch people in New York discovering garments for the first time.

John Dehlin [01:57:10] What we all do. If this leads to a massive uptick in people wanting to convert to the Mormon Church because it's so sexy and cool to be Mormon, can you imagine

Alyssa Alexander [01:57:21] what the world thinking? Mormons is sexy and cool.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:24] And I don't think people are right now.

John Dehlin [01:57:26] If you watch dancing on the shower,

Samantha Shelley [01:57:28] I'm not watching the show thinking that this is sexy and cool.

John Dehlin [01:57:31] Are you sure?

Samantha Shelley [01:57:32] It's. First of all, it's like, these are.

John Dehlin [01:57:35] Call her daddy.

Alyssa Alexander [01:57:37] It's true.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:38] Whitney is sexy and cool. I stand by that.

Alyssa Alexander [01:57:42] Whitney is fun. Whitney is not cool.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:45] We can't get into it.

John Dehlin [01:57:47] She's high school cheerleader cool.

Alyssa Alexander [01:57:50] I think she's like theater kid.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:51] Theater kid cool. To me, she's cool because I was at theater kid and I was a theater kid. And she's a good one.

Alyssa Alexander [01:57:58] She is a good. She is a good one.

John Dehlin [01:58:00] So y' all don't think this is making Mormonism look cool?

Samantha Shelley [01:58:03] Well, they have, like, a Kardashian vibe in that they're these women who, like, excessively focus on how sexy they look. But then, like, as Michaela and Jace show, it's like they're all exaggerating their sexuality aesthetically. But when it actually comes to, like, the. The sec. The sex in their marriages, is it like, that's not sexy to me? Yeah, that's like the opposite of sexy. That's. You're, like, overcompensating with all the hair. With all the hair to ride with that amount of hair. Sorry.

Alyssa Alexander [01:58:32] Macy just got a haircut, so she took her extensions out.

Samantha Shelley [01:58:35] Are they going shorter now that they're more mainstream?

Alyssa Alexander [01:58:37] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:58:39] You know, ex Mormons and Mormons don't realize that prior to, you know, the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City and Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, the most common perception of Mormons in the US Wasn't that they were some weird Joseph Smith cult. It was that they were Amish. It's like, wait, are those the Mennonites? Are those.

Alyssa Alexander [01:59:01] The.

John Dehlin [01:59:01] Are Mormons the ones that drive horse carriages in Pennsylvania? Like, that's how clueless the US Was about Mormons. I guess the Book of Mormon musical has helped somewhat with that. But do I think the secret lives of Mormon wives are making Mormonism look more cool than perceptions that they're Amish and Mennonites? Yes, I do. Yeah, they're way sexy and cooler than men.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:25] Head to Mennonites.

Alyssa Alexander [01:59:27] This show is, you know, dwarfed Book of Mormon musical at this point, I think.

John Dehlin [01:59:31] Yeah, it's got to. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:33] Anyway, guys, just remember the book is better

John Dehlin [01:59:37] than the musical, than the music,

Samantha Shelley [01:59:38] than the Hulu Show.

John Dehlin [01:59:39] All right, should we play the next clip?

Alyssa Alexander [01:59:41] Next clip.

John Dehlin [01:59:42] Do you want to set it up or just play?

Alyssa Alexander [01:59:43] Nope, just. Just go for it. More rainbows.

Guest 2 [01:59:45] BYU's honor code prohibits same sex romantic behavior. And I know it's not the same thing, but when I was at byu, I definitely broke the honor code when I got pregnant out of wedlock. So I feel like I can relate. And I don't think it's fair that the students have to live in fear of being kicked out based on who they choose to love. I do love byu. I had a great experience there. However, I do think a lot of their policies are outdated and need to be updated to fit the times.

John Dehlin [02:00:12] That's cool. Like, we're all BYU alum in one fashion or another.

Alyssa Alexander [02:00:15] One fashion.

Samantha Shelley [02:00:16] What do you mean by that?

Alyssa Alexander [02:00:17] Sure gave it. Well, I didn't graduate from byu.

Samantha Shelley [02:00:19] Oh, I thought it was BYU shade.

John Dehlin [02:00:21] No, no. You went there for a year.

Alyssa Alexander [02:00:23] I did. I gave it a good shot.

John Dehlin [02:00:25] Yeah. And then you, Samantha, you're byu Idaho graduate. Yeah. And I was BYU Provo.

Alyssa Alexander [02:00:30] I did graduate college, everyone.

John Dehlin [02:00:32] Yes, yes. This likes words we know. Master's degree or two. How many masters are you doing?

Alyssa Alexander [02:00:39] Two. So, you know, there's nothing better than just getting the same degree twice, basically.

John Dehlin [02:00:44] And I'm more of a USU aggy than I am a cougar, because I went to nine years of graduate school at Utah State. But no, we're just being silly now. But I think this is super cool because BYU is very sacred, like, top five sacred to Mormon Church leadership. And the fact that they're calling out the honor code and the unfair treatment of LGBT students at byu, that's banger.

Alyssa Alexander [02:01:07] I do think that's brave. You know, she does have Macy has a temple recommend. And I do think, like, she's taking a risk here, you know, kind of putting that. I mean, I have no idea.

John Dehlin [02:01:16] No, they're not.

Alyssa Alexander [02:01:17] I don't think she is.

John Dehlin [02:01:18] Here's why. Like, my friends, you know, Dan Reynolds, Tyler Glenn, like, pick your celebrity. The church doesn't excommunicate celebrities. Right. Like Steve Young and his wife Barbara Young, they've been LGBT advocates for decades. Church is never going to excommunicate Marie Osmond for supporting her queer kid or even advocating for same sex marriage. Like celebrities in Mormonism get an excommunication pass.

Alyssa Alexander [02:01:44] Do you think the. I think in my opinion, Salt Lake City is.

John Dehlin [02:01:48] Or David Archuleta on call with their.

Alyssa Alexander [02:01:50] With her bishop, like, no, I think

John Dehlin [02:01:53] the church leaves celebrities alone.

Alyssa Alexander [02:01:55] So you don't think that.

John Dehlin [02:01:56] In my opinion.

Alyssa Alexander [02:01:57] You think the bishop has, like, he's just going at it by himself? Do you think he's given instruction to ignore.

John Dehlin [02:02:04] If you're wealthy, powerful, and highly influential, the church would much rather treat you with kit gloves. I know of a famous rock star who is still a believing Mormon, and he gets all sorts of passes from his bishop because he's a famous rock star. And I could tell you the passes, but I won't go into detail. I just know that, like, if you're a rich, successful Mormon celebrity, lots of things go. And your bishop is cool with it all. As long as you're not critique. You know, as long as you're not, like, openly. Even if you are openly apostatizing, they don't care. So I take that back. They don't care if you're a celebrity. Double standard all the way. Because the church doesn't want the PR headache. Can you imagine tmz, like National Enquirer, International News. Mormon Church excommunicates Tyler Glenn, Dan Reynolds, Marie Osmond, Steve Young, David Archuleta. Never gonna happen. Sorry. Whitney. Secret Lives. Heather Gay. Right.

Alyssa Alexander [02:03:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:12] Anyway, sorry, I just. I just rant.

Alyssa Alexander [02:03:15] In which case, then I guess you could also argue that then they're using their special status for good here.

John Dehlin [02:03:20] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:03:20] To mention. To mention the honor code. And I think they are cool. Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:26] I don't know. Oh, that's not how you took it.

Alyssa Alexander [02:03:27] No, no, that is how I took it.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:29] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:30] Rule aligned.

John Dehlin [02:03:31] Yeah. All right, let's see. Does that close out kind of the lgbt?

Alyssa Alexander [02:03:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:39] Okay.

Alyssa Alexander [02:03:40] Yeah. Let's bump down to the demise storyline.

John Dehlin [02:03:45] Okay, so wait, we're going to miss the garments comment from Jen.

Alyssa Alexander [02:03:48] Oh, do you want to hear that? Do you want to do the garment?

John Dehlin [02:03:50] I'll play the clips even if we don't talk about it. Okay. Is that all right?

Alyssa Alexander [02:03:54] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:54] I know you probably have to go. We'll go fast. We'll go first.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [02:03:58] It's really hard not to combine both culture and, like, the religion itself. And I feel like the culture and, like, the tradition. Traditions of the church have hurt me.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:11] Yeah, they hurt me.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [02:04:13] Yes. And I definitely have gone through my own own, like, faith crisis. I feel like I have looked at the church as, like, you have to wear your garments. You have to show up to church on Sunday. You have to act and be a certain way for people to love and accept you and for God to accept you. I just don't feel like God really cares.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:29] Yeah.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [02:04:30] If I'm wearing garments or not.

John Dehlin [02:04:32] Whoa. I'm glad we didn't skip that.

Alyssa Alexander [02:04:34] That's a big one.

John Dehlin [02:04:37] Garments are very sacred to Mormons.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:39] And I can't believe she just called the family a proclamation to the world. The culture. I'm like.

Alyssa Alexander [02:04:44] Or the temple requirements of wearing your garments.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:46] She's like, I totally get what it was like being gay in the church because I hate wearing my garments. Which is valid. It's not the culture, it's the doctrine.

Alyssa Alexander [02:04:54] And it is interesting that she's like, I used to think that, like, you had to wear your garments. Like, well, that is kind of what the church. That is.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:02] I mean, you still kind of probably should.

Alyssa Alexander [02:05:04] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:05] By their logic.

John Dehlin [02:05:06] I mean. But I'll also say that what. What we're seeing in warp speed in 2025 is the church loosening its standards so women can now have multiple piercings in their ear. Tattoos are no longer stigmatized. Garments are being, you know, refashioned to be able to show shoulders like Mormon brides can now show their shoulders, which they never could do before the temple ceremonies being shrunk, shortened, more Jesus focused. They're taking out a lot of the horrible misogyny. Like, the. I mean, dogs and cats are sleeping together. Like, caffeinated beverages are allowed at BYU Idaho, Samantha. Can you imagine that when you were BYU Idaho? Could you have a Coca Cola with caffeine?

Samantha Shelley [02:05:52] No, I had to get on Adderall

John Dehlin [02:05:55] or drink monsters, Right?

Samantha Shelley [02:05:57] Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [02:05:58] Yeah. Yeah. So. And then the church has totally given people a pass for cannabis, for mushrooms, for psychedelics, for ketamine. Like, in some sense, she is reflecting the way the church is moving. Or am I wrong, Alyssa?

Alyssa Alexander [02:06:16] No, I think. I think you're right. It is interesting. I think with. With garments in particular, I think that change has definitely not been formalized. I think they. Well, they took like in the. For the strength of youth. They took out the language forbidding multiple piercings, tattoos, things like this. But I do think, like, the expectation is still to wear your garments. But I do. My understanding is that they were just being a little bit more flexible on how much they're following through with that. And, like, I don't know, it seems like once it's started becoming more common for people to wear them, less bishops are kind of stuck in a hard place. Because once you take someone's recommend because they're not wearing them every day now, you have to take everybody's recommend. It kind of is like this immunity herd.

Samantha Shelley [02:07:00] Immunity, everyone. Just quick garments and you guys will be fine. Yeah, they can't come for you all.

Mormon Women Coming Out and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [02:07:05] Think of all the Mormon young women, and we all know that over the past couple years, for the first time, not just in Christianity, but in Mormonism, there are, I think, more men, slightly more men attending church than women. Which means that women Mormon young women are leaving the Mormon Church at a higher rate than men are in 2025. Right?

Alyssa Alexander [02:07:30] Yeah, that's new, right?

John Dehlin [02:07:31] That's. I think that's new. In fact, they just lowered the mission age of Mormon young women to serve missions to 18. And we all know why they do that. Why do they do that?

Samantha Shelley [02:07:44] Because women can be Jezebels in that year, period.

John Dehlin [02:07:47] And you gotta tighten between high school and college. They're losing too many young women. So they gotta get them on missions right out of high school or they'll leave the church, which they're doing. Do you think shows like this make women feel more empowered? Make them feel like the standards are less important to then make them feel like him? I like our Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and Real Housewives of Salt Lake City contributing to mass young woman Mormon disaffection.

Alyssa Alexander [02:08:18] Well, I mean, they're telling. They're telling the woman that they're smashing the patriarchy. So we're being told we're being empowered over and over and over again and that you can be a feminist and smash the patriarchy and be a breadwinner and still be a Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:08:34] So why'd you just air quote their feminism?

Alyssa Alexander [02:08:36] You know, I think they've started the.

John Dehlin [02:08:40] They're baby feminists.

Alyssa Alexander [02:08:41] They're baby feminists. Yeah. They're like. As all we tend to do in womanism, we're like a decade and a half behind, but on the right track.

Samantha Shelley [02:08:51] Sammy, I have nothing to.

John Dehlin [02:08:53] Okay, so what I heard you say Eliza's. Yes. This show is probably accelerating more young women leaving the Mormon Church or at least lowering their observance.

Alyssa Alexander [02:09:07] Probably lowering their observance. I could see going either way. I think. I don't know. In some ways, I think they're also showing that, like, you can be really casual Mormon and it's fine.

John Dehlin [02:09:18] That could be good for the church, right?

Alyssa Alexander [02:09:19] It'd be good for the church. All right, well, but they might not have as many, like, butts and seats.

John Dehlin [02:09:25] Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:26] And it doesn't work right When. When high control groups loosen their grip. It doesn't make them retain members the way they hope.

John Dehlin [02:09:34] No. The more devotion, the more expectation, the more devotion, the less.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:37] All about the psychological control. It's not truly about the doctrine the way that people think it is.

John Dehlin [02:09:42] Yeah. All right, let's hurry and go to the next clip. Who's this guy she's talking to?

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [02:09:46] Is your family still part of the church?

Samantha Shelley [02:09:48] When they found out I was gay, they took me out of dance. I was, like, literally, like, locked me in a room. I think they automatically thought that I was dancing. That was the reason why I was gay. So When I turned 19, I left Utah. Didn't talk to my mom, didn't talk to my dad. It took my mom a long time to realize, how can my son not be accepted in a place that I love? And because of that, they all left the church. She's like, if my son's not accepted here, then I can't.

Alyssa Alexander [02:10:12] I can't practice here.

John Dehlin [02:10:15] Her eyes got really big.

Alyssa Alexander [02:10:17] Yeah. I love the shirt.

John Dehlin [02:10:19] That's a big deal. They're talking about people leaving the church.

Guest [02:10:21] That's.

John Dehlin [02:10:21] That's a big deal.

Alyssa Alexander [02:10:22] It was interesting that they. That they showed that.

John Dehlin [02:10:25] Why?

Alyssa Alexander [02:10:27] I mean, like, from a production standpoint, this is a little bit edgier, you know, talking about, like, Mormon disaffection. But. Yeah, but, yeah, I think this is. This is the story that we see sometimes of. I think it's telling on both ends. It's telling that we see, like, just how common it is for Mormon parents to be really upset when their child comes out as gay. And he literally, like, took him out of his dance classes, presumed that, like, dance would somehow affect his sexuality. And then we see, like, this kind of arc. We see him, his family, like, leave the church, which I think is, like, a really sweet moment. We see a family rallying behind a son. And anyway, I think we kind of see a little bit of both sides of. Of the Mormon journey there.

John Dehlin [02:11:13] Yeah, I'M glad they're covering that for sure, because that's a huge part of what we do on Mormon stories. Should we switch to Demi?

Alyssa Alexander [02:11:19] Let's switch to Demi.

John Dehlin [02:11:20] All right, give us some Demi background.

Alyssa Alexander [02:11:22] Okay, this. This is a really. This is a tough one. So in this episode or in this season, we. We talked at the very end of last time, the last season, there was this potential scandal between Demi and this guy named Marciano, who was a cast member of Vanderpump Villa, basically Marciano, and is the man that Jesse had an emotional affair with. There was a potential that Demi and Marciano, like, kissed and had a little bit of an affair as well. So a lot of the first half of the season is Jesse and Marciano talking about their affair, and then we kind of bump into to Demi talking about her potential relationship with Marciano. But at this point, she denies ever having a relationship and is saying that she was sexually assaulted by Marciano. And the second. The back half of this season turns into, like, them trying to litigate whether or not she was actually sexually assaulted or not. And it has turned into a big mess.

Demi's Allegations of Sexual Assault

John Dehlin [02:12:24] All right, well, let's go ahead and roll. Should we roll the first clip?

Alyssa Alexander [02:12:28] Yeah, actually. Wait, wait.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [02:12:29] Before.

Alyssa Alexander [02:12:29] Before we roll the first clip? Yeah, I guess I'll just. I'll just kind of give a little bit more context here. The. The main allegation is that Marciano grabbed Demi's ass twice without consent. But we do know that, and. And the women all have, like, varying reactions to this, but we do know that Macy and Michaela have both been, like, very traumatically sexually assaulted in their life. And so that's what both of these clips are in response to, is that Demi is looking for support from them because of their life experiences.

John Dehlin [02:13:06] All right, let's roll that. Let's roll the first clip.

Guest 2 [02:13:11] Demi brings up my past history with abuse, and it feels a little inappropriate to me because our situations are so vastly different. I was in an abusive relationship. I was abused, choked, hit, pushed. All these things. I was. And this situation is so different than what she went through. So to me, it almost feels insensitive that she's trying to compare the two or use me as a scapegoat for what she's going through.

John Dehlin [02:13:37] So really quickly, let me ask you a question about this, Alyssa. Like, one thing I've heard is we don't want to get into this trauma Olympics where my abuse is way worse than your abuse. So your abuse is significant. But is this that or is this not that, or do we get into that.

Alyssa Alexander [02:13:55] I don't know if we. I don't even know how much we can get in.

John Dehlin [02:13:58] Okay.

Alyssa Alexander [02:13:59] To that specifically.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [02:13:59] Let's.

Alyssa Alexander [02:14:00] Let's roll the next clip, and then

John Dehlin [02:14:01] we can go ahead and do the next clip.

Alyssa Alexander [02:14:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:03] Okay. All right, let's go ahead and go to the next clip. This is Michaela.

Alyssa Alexander [02:14:07] Yeah.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [02:14:08] It's hard to say yes to me's lying because I obviously never want to say that someone's lying if they are a victim of something, but I think it's offensive for Demi to take my situation to almost put more validity in her situation. Obviously, I was a child when this was happening to me, and I just. I don't think it's fair to compare our two situations at all.

Alyssa Alexander [02:14:34] I feel like my main. One of my main takeaways about this whole storyline is I'm really just frustrated with producers for making this story half season because we're essentially set up with two options. We've made Demi an unreliable narrator for most of the time. We see. We have. There's a ton of criticism of Demi.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [02:14:57] I think that.

Alyssa Alexander [02:14:58] That there's a lot of reasons why, like, from what we've seen, she's an unreliable narrator in just, like, everything. Like, she's just a little bit. She's. She's someone that we're not told to trust or we're not told. Told to root for. And so then she brings up this sexual assault. And basically, then, like, the back half of the season is, like, the viewers being shown, like, the women all trying to litigate this story. And then the viewers are kind of told by the end that, like, they shouldn't believe to me, and, like, I. I think we're put in a really tough spot as, like, the cast members and the viewers, because it's like, okay, the main. So now the main storyline is to not believe Demi, which I think, again, just like, considering the way that women aren't believed anyway, it just feels like even if Demi isn't being honest, whether or not she's being honest, I just hate that the producers were like, yes, we're gonna run a storyline of a woman who is, like, seen as an unreliable narrator. And, like, whether she is or whether she isn't, I just don't understand why we had to make, like, a whole back half of the season about that, and also why we put, like, so many of the women in the position to, like, publicly comment on whether or not she was sexually assaulted. And they were asked that very directly, and I just felt like that was just an icky move on their part to even, like, make that such a headline valid.

Samantha Shelley [02:16:19] I have something to say that I don't know if this will be controversial. I'm not speaking to whether or not Demi's story is true. I mean, yes, she seems like an unreliable narrator, but I can't speak to whether unwanted touch happens. And I'm not. But I do think the show is highlighting something that we kind of do need to be aware of as a society, which is that if we. And I'm like, I'm such a feminist. Like, I obviously default to believing women, but if we have sort of a social system where if a woman claims assault, we automatically believe her, there are going to be some tiny percentage. I imagine some people are going to abuse that power because it is just as we saw in the season. It's such a, like, bind. It can, like, if someone is a nefarious actor or, you know, is just purely interested in personal. There are times when, like, that power can be abused. You know what I'm saying? Like, I obviously think it's good that we default to believing women. And again, I'm not. I'm not speaking to other. Marciano touched me in a. I don't know, but I don't know. I mean, I think there's some valuable cultural discussion to be had around the fact that, like, that is like a. A power that. That people have then have. Like, do you get what I'm saying? Am I. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:40] No. I mean. Golissy, go ahead.

Alyssa Alexander [02:17:43] And then I'll say no to say, I see. I see what you're saying. And I also, like, bristle at the word power in relation to women compared to men. Because, like, traditionally, in almost every way, that's not. Yes, it's. It's the exact opposite. And so I wonder if, like, even in that context, any sort of want

Samantha Shelley [02:18:00] to make imply that it is anyway equal, you know? Yeah, it's still not a reason to not believe women. I'm just pointing out that, like, we. We can't be delusional about the fact that, like, I don't know whether it's 1% of the time or half a percent of the time or 0.1%. But, like, those times are still real for the people that they're real to. And, like, that still is. Like, that's just. It's tough. It's tough. It's highlighting, like, a cultural moment that we're in where it's like, yes, we now do default to believing women, and that's good. But then you're seeing throughout the show how that makes. It kind of just freezes the conversation, and it's just tough.

John Dehlin [02:18:35] No, it's tough. And this is actually very personal for me because I've never talked about this. Most of my viewers have no idea, but I was falsely accused of sexual harassment. It was 100 made up. There was zero truth to it. It has all been proven in a court of law that it was made up and defamatory. We won a judgment. We were awarded $1.2 million, which we haven't collected. And I've never mentioned it once on Mormon stories to this day. Why did I never mention it? Because people very close to me in my lives have been sexually assaulted, and I did not want to contribute to the narrative that women should not be believed. So, yes, to both of you, yes, we. You know, this is not a narrative that we probably do well to be promoting a lot. And yes, false accusations happen, and they're horrific, and not only career ending, but life ending potentially when they happen. And so we can't just pretend like that doesn't happen, because it can't.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:40] So it's just because especially in a patriarchal society where, you know, women can often feel such. So limited in their power. Again, I'm, like, real. I'm not. I'm really not trying to move us away from believing women in any way and saying, no, of course not. But, like, thinking of your situation, John, like, yeah, there have. There are things like that that have informed my perspective of, like, it's even me saying, like, we've got to be a bit careful. I don't even really know what I'm saying in that, because I'm not suggesting that, like, start being more skeptical, you know, that just acknowledging that it happens. Like, we can't just pretend that it will never happen, that someone will. That nefarious people exist and will use accusations sometimes for bad.

John Dehlin [02:20:23] No.

Samantha Shelley [02:20:23] And we can be upfront about how, like, how tiny of a percentage of the time that is, but it's still just, like, on a grand scale. That's still, like, still happening to people.

John Dehlin [02:20:32] Yeah, it's hard.

Alyssa Alexander [02:20:33] Yeah. I think, like, it's something that's happening very small and I. Or a very small amount. And it is still happening very rarely. But I think that's partially why I'm frustrated that it is taking up half a season of this show because so many of these women have been sexually assaulted and that's been talked about. I don't think that, like, sexual assault needs any more space on this show. It's something that already has a lot of space, and it is something that we can't ignore because it's something that is happening to real people's lives. So they can't, like, edit it out fully. But I did feel like the producers were, like, amping up this narrative. Like, we don't like Demi. We don't trust her. And. And I just feel like, why are we putting all these women in this position where they need to, like, publicly litigate whether or not they believe her? That just feels like, from a producer standpoint, is so inappropriate.

Samantha Shelley [02:21:18] Yeah. I think generally, like, our societal impulse to feel like we have to all collectively litigate things is not ideal.

Alyssa Alexander [02:21:26] Like, we all just need to decide with. And they keep saying that, like, we. Do we believe her? Do we not believe her?

Samantha Shelley [02:21:30] We needed to decide.

Alyssa Alexander [02:21:31] And I was thinking, like, do we need. Do we need five episodes? There's got to be a third thing.

Samantha Shelley [02:21:36] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:21:37] Yeah. Does this even need to make it to screen?

Samantha Shelley [02:21:39] Can I say another controversial thing? I genuinely just want to know what you do.

Alyssa Alexander [02:21:42] I want to be on air with Sammy.

John Dehlin [02:21:46] No, let's do it. We need to talk about stuff. Can I say, before you say this, I think one of the reasons why. I mean, I think. I think we all probably agree that in US Culture, US Political arena, there's a benefit to having two sides, two viable political parties that help push, hopefully, ideally, conversations and rhetoric and policy more towards a moderate middle ground. And regardless of where you are politically, we've seen the evisceration of the Democratic Party and of leftist politics, and I think it's partly because the left in some areas has gone too far.

Samantha Shelley [02:22:26] I just think it's always good to maintain a little, however strong, in a belief you are. Like, I fully think we should default to believing women, but it's always good in anything to have just a shred of healthy skepticism in certain situations. So the controversial thing I wanted to ask you guys about, so Demise. The alleged sexual assault was that he grabbed her butt, right?

Alyssa Alexander [02:22:50] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [02:22:52] So I don't. I don't know. Again, I'm not. I wasn't there, so I. I genuinely don't know. And I don't feel like any of us have to, like, have that much of an opinion, if that makes sense.

Alyssa Alexander [02:23:01] Sure.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:03] But to me, if someone is really flirting, if. If it sounds like Demi was really flirting with Marciano in the villa. Right. Like, other girls testified of that. If there are two people and they're really flirting a lot in a situation and she's like, touching his arm a lot. And, like, I feel like an unwanted butt grab can be like a. Like a misjudged, like, flirtatious move. That, to me is, like, potentially could be more of, like, a miscommunication than an assault. Like, I don't know. And I guess maybe I feel more like that because I see her comparing it to all these girls, like, really heinous sexual abuse history. But I'm like, I. And I. And I don't know the energy that he had or I don't know anything, but it's just like, I feel like people grab butts when they're flirting sometimes. That's generally not something that someone will be like, can I touch your butt? Like, that's usually not like, an explicit verbal consent thing. I feel like that could just be, like, a misjudgment on his part. I don't know. Like, I'm like, is. Is that necessarily sexual assault?

John Dehlin [02:24:06] That's a great question.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:07] Again, like, we can't really know because we can't, like, see it to sort of get a sense of it.

John Dehlin [02:24:11] But, I mean, there's a part of my Mormon brain that's like, nobody's ever grabbed my butt, and I've never grabbed anyone's butt, and that doesn't happen in this world. But that's.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:20] Again, you never had a friend that's

John Dehlin [02:24:22] grabbed your butt, not a woman.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:24] Yeah, fair enough if you're a Mormon husband. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:27] But I mean, I wonder, Sam Manta, if you're speaking to this puritanical, sexually repressed Mormon culture. I don't know. I have no idea what goes on at frats and sororities and in. In big ten or SEC schools.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:44] And I'm not saying that unwanted butt grubs are okay. That is definitely not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that, like, in flirtation, sometimes there's going to be some misjudgments, and there's. I feel like there's can maybe be, like, a little bit of space for that that doesn't just immediately leap to sexual assault. Again, wasn't there, so can't fully say. But another thing I thought while watching Demi throughout the season was I fully believe her that she's experienced a lot of shitty treatment from men in her life. Probably worse sexual abuse than she's claiming from Marciano.

Alyssa Alexander [02:25:13] I don't know.

Samantha Shelley [02:25:14] That's just a guess, but. So it wouldn't surprise me if, like, these decades of. Of, like, shitty treatment from men is, like, really kind of coming to a head in this one situation where maybe she's blowing it out of proportion. I don't know. Like, is that not a possibility that we can sort of, like, transfer a lot of our, like, historical woundedness into, like, a new situation where maybe it's not quite warranted at the level that you're, like, claiming?

Alyssa Alexander [02:25:40] Yeah, I don't. I mean, what's. So. What's so odd about this is, on the one hand, like I've said, we're spending half a season literally dissecting this and. And trying to litigate it, but there's not really any new information that we're getting. We don't understand the context. We don't understand. We just know it was off camera

Samantha Shelley [02:25:57] and that he just filed a defamation lawsuit.

Alyssa Alexander [02:25:59] But the thing that was confusing is. Well, I just. I just briefly read, like, a People article about it, so really need to check my sources here. But it seems like a lot of what he was saying about the defamation lawsuit was, like, we did kiss, and it was a consensual kiss. And I was, like, confused that he kept referencing the kiss, but. But her claim was that it was the butt grub.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:18] I don't know, but I guess that's what I mean by, like, if you guys were kissing and then he grabbed

Alyssa Alexander [02:26:24] the kiss altogether, that's her.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:27] I mean, based on what we saw in the show, she does seem like someone that, like, would lie about the kiss. We do not know. But again, like, people grab each other's butts when they kiss, and, like, maybe that's unwanted. And, like, a person obviously deserves to speak up and be like, hey, don't do that. That's not cool. We're not there yet. Like, I'm, again, fully against unwanted touch. Like, but I don't know. The whole thing is just so icky.

John Dehlin [02:26:50] Like, one thing I know for sure is that Mormons don't know how to deal responsibly with alcohol.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:58] Yeah, but she. Was she drinking? Did we.

Alyssa Alexander [02:27:00] I know. We know that Jesse was. I don't know about you.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:03] I'm sure Marciano was.

John Dehlin [02:27:05] I'm just saying. I can imagine there are all sorts of standards and mores you learn in normal, healthy, fun, slash adolescent slash adult slash. I'll just say party culture that Mormons probably don't learn because it's all, no, no, no, no, no. Or hidden or darker secret. Is that possible? What would be let alone with just the idea of consent? Has any Mormon ever been taught what consent is and what the principles and standards of consent are, ever?

Samantha Shelley [02:27:41] Yeah, not really.

John Dehlin [02:27:43] Alyssa?

Alyssa Alexander [02:27:43] No, I never was. At least.

Samantha Shelley [02:27:45] So what do you think it is that she might not know? Because of her. Because of the Mormonism of it all? Like, what are you suggesting that she might be blind to?

John Dehlin [02:27:53] Well, I mean, I haven't. I haven't. I have no way to have visibility into what did or didn't happen or whose opinion. I'm more speaking to the types of dynamics that I see particularly in sometimes in. In ex Mormon culture, where people never got a normal young adulthood, and so they act in super bizarre, crazy ways, often unethical or even outrageously abusive or horrific, partly because they just didn't learn what one drink is and what two drinks are and what consent is and what's acceptable versus when you're so tightly

Samantha Shelley [02:28:30] wound for so long and then you have access to a substance that lowers your inhibitions and you, like, you kind of need to lower your inhibitions. Maybe not through that method.

John Dehlin [02:28:40] Yeah. I don't know. So we're speculating.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:42] Yeah, but that wasn't. The inhibitions thing wasn't about to me, by the way, that was just a separate thought.

John Dehlin [02:28:48] Okay. All right, Alyssa, should we show the next clip?

Alyssa Alexander [02:28:51] Our next clip? Yes.

John Dehlin [02:28:52] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:53] Am I going to get counseled for what I just said? I agree with Demi that I wanted to touch is unwanted touch.

John Dehlin [02:28:59] And I. Yeah, like, again, our uncharitable listeners in bad faith are always going to say, you guys want all these horrible things.

Samantha Shelley [02:29:08] I know.

Alyssa Alexander [02:29:09] Part of what I was also feeling like, like, frustrated by. With just with the discourse overall is a lot of so. So taking, like, her particular situation out of it. And like, the women already distrusted me for a variety of reasons. And so as it's, like, really complicated dynamic with the scenario. But a lot of what she's saying for. For abuse that we know is actual sexual abuse is valid. Like, she's saying the way that you behave with a person before, after, does not negate the fact that, like, abuse can happen. And so I think, yeah, that was also where, like, that's what made it so, so icky is a lot of the women, like, rather than just saying to me, lies anyway, like, we just don't believe. To me anyway, they seemed like they were trying to find a reason, like a valid reason to disbelieved me. But the problem is, like, them trying to explain to the camera why they disbelieve to me or was falling into victim blaming, like, the explanations they were giving. And Demi was saying, that's victim blaming. But the problem is, like, the explanations they were Using are tropes of victim blaming. Like, why were you being friends with him after when that's something that can happen? And. And I don't. I mean, in real relationship type abuse scenarios, which I don't necessarily think this. That's what this fell into. Like, this felt like kind of an offshoot.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:32] That's the thing. Just like, all the context around it, it's like, yeah, you're right. Like, they are. They are.

Alyssa Alexander [02:30:38] She.

Samantha Shelley [02:30:39] If she was lying, which I'm not really commenting on, she put them in the perfect bind. And like, exactly.

Alyssa Alexander [02:30:47] Which is partially why I just don't feel like it was appropriate for production to even have this discussion. Because the types of language that they're using, regardless of Demi's scenario, does fall into, like, standard victim blaming tropes.

Samantha Shelley [02:31:02] But I do get what they're saying. Given that even by her own story, it was a relatively. Not that it has to be a hierarchy, but, like, a butt grab is not a rape. Right? Like, those are, like, two very different things. Like, the energy of the way she was talking about being, like, a victim of sexual assault, given, like, what her story was, and then the fact that she did clearly facetime him with her daughter and, like, was, like, involving her daughter somehow. And, like, like, it just does it. It's like, really valid that they're like, this isn't adding up. And also that you. We have kind of seen this general psychological profile of Demi and how she tends to act and like, it's just all a nightmare. Like, it. I. I could totally also. This. The single thing that's been frustrating me the most. She does this thing all season. Unwanted touch is unwanted touch. And then when she's arguing with Miranda about another situation where she totally exaggerated a physical interaction that happened. Even though I still can agree that, like, Chase maybe was bringing an aggressive energy. And that's still so valid as a woman to be like, ugh. By that. But when she was saying to Miranda that Chase, she shoved Miranda in the exchange, so she's, like, not even consistent in her. Like, her whole thing is, I want to touch someone to touch. And then you shoved Miranda without that being wanted. Like you did to Miranda what you claim Chase did to you.

Alyssa Alexander [02:32:30] Well, she did what she thought was worse than what. Yeah, exactly.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:34] So that. That's why it's just all like, come on. Like, to me, I'm like, you. I mean, I guess it's like the. The childhood story we all grew up hearing, like, the boy who cried wolf. Like, we heard that story for a reason. It's like, if you lie a lot or you act shitty a lot, then, yes, your character is going to be in a bad standing to receive something like, you know, I mean, sorry if I've just been talking about this too much.

Alyssa Alexander [02:33:05] No, I mean, it's just. I think to me, it's just, like, generally just a very unlikable. She just becomes more and more unlikable as the seasons continue.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:16] But I do really believe that she has been mistreated by men a lot in her life, and I'm sure that's playing into all of this. So she is, like, a victim kind of, no matter what.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [02:33:24] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:33:25] And it does seem like, regardless, like, the situation with Marciano was at. At least concerning a miscalculation or regret or an awkward moment and at most, an assault in it somewhere.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:43] I also feel like she could have had so much more credibility if she would have just admitted, like, yeah, I did flirt with him a bit too much. Because that just seems like it's. It's not really up for debate based on the other accounts. It's like you're making yourself look less credible because you're like, no, I talk to all my friends about swallowing their cum. It's like, I just. I don't know about that.

Alyssa Alexander [02:34:03] Like, nobody else seemed like they had that relationship with her.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:07] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:34:08] I don't know. Do you have anything else you want to say about Demi? I feel like I've said all.

John Dehlin [02:34:11] Should we play the next clip?

Alyssa Alexander [02:34:13] Well, that's just, like, an example of.

John Dehlin [02:34:16] Okay, we don't need to.

Alyssa Alexander [02:34:17] We can probably skip that one. Unless there's more that you wanted to say.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:19] No, I've said too much already.

Taylor, Dakota, and the Season Finale

Alyssa Alexander [02:34:22] So we're gonna bump down into Taylor. This is where the. The series. The season ends. Okay, we can just play. We can just play the next clip about. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:33] All right. This is Taylor. Freaky.

Alyssa Alexander [02:34:36] This one is the Jordan telling Jesse about Dakota.

Samantha Shelley [02:34:40] Oh, good.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [02:34:41] During one of the times they were

Video Clip 3 [02:34:43] broken up, Leanne's friend reached out to him and was just, like, checking in on him. You know, he felt like it was a safe place, and she started, like,

Video Clip 3 [02:34:53] hitting on him, and it kind of turned sexual. From what he told me was, is

Video Clip 3 [02:34:57] that, like, she started, like, kind of coming on to him and, like, fed into it. And then when it was time to, like, actually hang out, like, he's like, I shut it down. Wait, which friend of Leanne's? Like, who was it? Oh, my God, that is so bad. It doesn't matter if you've been broken up or not. That's like Taylor's family.

Alyssa Alexander [02:35:15] Like, that's a.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [02:35:16] A big deal.

Samantha Shelley [02:35:18] So true. That's a big. Your family friend.

Guest [02:35:22] No.

Alyssa Alexander [02:35:22] So this is. So this is the big scandal is Dakota's like, I will tell nobody except for a cast member. Oh, Dakota. So, yeah, I mean, that's basically it is that Dakota was sexting. They go back and forth. Oh, my gosh. They go back and forth. And this comes up more in the reunion on what the specific scandal was. But Dakota sent a silhouette photo, which we will refer to as the silhouette scandal. Silhouette, Kate. A shirtless silhouette photo to. To Taylor's mom's friend. And anyway, basically sexting Taylor's mom's friend, which is so inappropriate on so many levels. And this blows up their relationship. And this is. Taylor finds out about this right before she goes on Jimmy Kimmel, which is like the biggest events of her career. And apparently this also happened two years earlier. So he had just been like, holding on to this detail for literal multiple years. Yeah. What was your take?

Samantha Shelley [02:36:25] I'm. I'm going to be. There's no world where I'm just not going to be hated for my controversial opinions. But, I mean, yeah, that's so messed up. To flirt with Taylor's family friend. That's not cool. But I. I do a little part of me feel sorry for him because I'm like, they were broken up. It's. To me, it's like, it's leaky sexual energy between these two people. Like, it sounds like nothing really substantial happened, but there was like this leaky sexual energy between them, which I fully agree is gross. And if I was Taylor, I'd be like, it will never talk to me again. Like, so, like, all the empathy in the world for that. But I'm like, ah, a man who's down bad and a woman's being kind of flirty with him by text. Like, I. I don't think it's good, obviously, but that again, just thinking about how the men are all victims of purity culture too. And I don't know, I can understand why he sat on it for two years, because I could. I could see how he would not really think it had been enough of a thing to be because they never met up. I don't even know if sexting happened. It just seems like maybe it was like a bit flirty.

Alyssa Alexander [02:37:29] It was the shirtless silhouette. Yeah, he sent a shirtless silhouette and she sent a bikini picture.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:35] Like, truly not ideal. So Taylor, if I was Taylor, I wouldn't want to talk to him. Ever again.

Alyssa Alexander [02:37:40] Oh.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:41] But I do feel a little bit sorry for him for how big of a. Because I'm like, these two people are clearly both very, like, relationally broken and wounded and, like, struggling. And, like, as someone who loves attention, I could totally see myself indulging in some flirty banter in a moment where I'm down bad and I've been broken up with.

Alyssa Alexander [02:38:00] Oh, my God. He just feels like a poor sex idiot in this sex idiot. And, yeah, I mean, maybe it also

Samantha Shelley [02:38:10] gave me, you know, like, with the whole Jenna stuff where it was like, they weren't an exclusive couple when he had a thing with Jenna. It's. I feel like Dakota genuinely, like, really likes Taylor. Like, they have something. There's something between them that is real, and I feel like he knows that he can't quite meet her standards for loyalty, and so. And of course he's gonna sit on stuff because she is so volatile.

Alyssa Alexander [02:38:35] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:35] Like, she's not the type. Like, if I was dating a man and then he was like, oh, by the way, in the beginning, when we weren't exclusive, I slept with someone else, I'd be like, that stings. But okay, we weren't exclusive. Like, oh, you know. But with Taylor, you know, it's gonna be a meltdown, relationship ending thing. So I feel like, given that he seems like he just wants to be with her, he's just trying to be with her.

Alyssa Alexander [02:38:56] He just. He just makes really stupid decisions.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:59] Yeah, that was so, so dumb.

John Dehlin [02:39:02] And now she's going on the Bachelor.

Alyssa Alexander [02:39:03] She's the Bachelor.

Samantha Shelley [02:39:04] Apparently, she was texting him before the reunion. He made a comment in the reunion about how Taylor was. And presumably the reunion was the reunion after the Bachelor.

Alyssa Alexander [02:39:13] Oh, maybe the Bachelorette's filming now. Right now, actually.

Samantha Shelley [02:39:15] Oh, so the reunion was before she went on the Bachelorette?

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [02:39:18] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:39:18] Okay.

Alyssa Alexander [02:39:19] I feel like. I mean, I don't think anybody's arguing that. I seen. Elise said it was cheating because they weren't together.

Samantha Shelley [02:39:26] Yeah, but it was just the family friend.

Alyssa Alexander [02:39:28] It was just family friend. Just. Just a bad, bad move. It is. It is funny, unfortunately, that, like, Taylor's family in season one, season two, have been so defensive of Dakota and have been like, you need to make it work. You need to make it work. And then they do something that offends Leanne, and that's, like, her deal breaker. She won't look him in the eye sunglasses. Like, I mean, of the things he's done, this is not. It's super inappropriate, but I can't with,

Samantha Shelley [02:39:57] like, the dad who's like, just been so heinous in previous episodes. Like, slut shaming his own daughter.

Alyssa Alexander [02:40:03] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:03] Then the dad is in here at the reunion trying to have some sense of, like, moral superiority over Dakota. I'm like, at best, you guys are cut from the same cloth. Like, let's not act like. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:15] Wow.

Samantha Shelley [02:40:17] When you're three hours into the Mormon Stories episode and you're just hyperactive.

John Dehlin [02:40:23] Should we play last clip?

Alyssa Alexander [02:40:24] Let's play last clip. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:40:25] Did you want to set it up or.

Alyssa Alexander [02:40:27] Oh, yeah. This is a pivot. This is this last thing that ever. They're Dakota and Taylor's baby. Oh, okay. So I guess Dakota goes on strike on the show. He's really upset. He's embarrassed. Taylor's like, I never want to talk to you ever again. He's embarrassed. And so he's like, I won't film if this is going to be discussed. Unfortunately, this seems like an odd move on his part because it's already been discussed on camera, so now he just can't be a part of the narrative. But whatever, he's on strike. And so now it's time for their baby's baby blessing. Taylor wants to bless him and, like, the traditional Mormon way, but Dakota says no. So anyway, they just chat about the baby blessing.

Guest [02:41:08] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:41:08] That's what this clip is for.

John Dehlin [02:41:09] All right. Baby blessings very ubiquitous in Mormon culture.

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [02:41:15] Are you gonna still do the baby blessing? I'd like to. I mean, I wanted Dakota to kind of plan it out, but he's not even filming right now. He's not at all. He's refusing to film if we bring the story up at all.

Video Clip 4 [02:41:27] Oh, wow.

Video Clip 4 [02:41:27] Dakota and I had planned on having a baby blessing forever, but in the church, we can't do a baby blessing without both of us signing off. And he is hiding away, which sucks.

John Dehlin [02:41:42] So he's on strike.

Alyssa Alexander [02:41:45] And so he's on strike. And so they end up doing a blessing of comfort. They just, like, make it slightly more. Slightly less formal, but so they're not even doing the formal Mormon baby blessing. But they still have Taylor's dad do it, because if Dakota's not available the next day, next patriarch in the family is the one to do it, who is not even close to, like, the standard of Mormon priesthood power. But he's. He. He's the one that does it. But I was curious. Sorry. Actually, do you have anything to say? You respond first.

Samantha Shelley [02:42:16] I just. I don't want to. Prayer shame. But I just. When Taylor's dad gave the prayer, I'm like, that was surely just like the little opening thing to the actual blessing of comfort. Right? Like, that's not, that's not the sacred religious ritual that we all gathered here together to have like that shitty little prayer. Like that's. I'm just like, your heart is not with God, sir. I can even tell he.

Alyssa Alexander [02:42:38] He hasn't seen enough baby blessings apparently to like really get on his soapbox there.

Samantha Shelley [02:42:43] Yeah, I was so confused by that.

Alyssa Alexander [02:42:44] I mean, every other baby blessing I've been to, the man is like so excited to have his like five minutes of glory. He's like, I'm going to address every possible thing that's going to happen.

Samantha Shelley [02:42:53] It felt like a quick meal prayer, like the kind of prayer you do before class at byu, Idaho, before you eat like donuts at church. It didn't feel like this was like,

John Dehlin [02:42:59] why did we not include,

Alyssa Alexander [02:43:02] like, shouldn't you revel in, in this moment that you have?

Samantha Shelley [02:43:06] He's not a narrator and honestly, me neither. So fine.

Alyssa Alexander [02:43:10] Well, of course you're not. You're a woman.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:12] But.

John Dehlin [02:43:14] So there was a big reunion after show and there was a lot of drama there, right.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:18] Sponsored by Dunkin Donuts.

John Dehlin [02:43:19] I thought we were gonna. I thought we might cover some of that, but is there anything worth mentioning?

Alyssa Alexander [02:43:24] It was the worst reunion, truly.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:26] They barely got into anything. They just sort of like skidded by every issue and every time it got close to hitting any kind of new depth that we hadn't seen throughout the season already, they just moved on to a Dunkin Donuts ad and then segregated into the next thing. So it kind of felt pointless.

John Dehlin [02:43:39] So it's hyping season four, basically.

Alyssa Alexander [02:43:41] Yeah, basically. It's like, sorry, we can't talk about that. We can't talk about that this time.

John Dehlin [02:43:45] Season four has been purchased, right?

Alyssa Alexander [02:43:47] It is, yes. It's filming. It's. It's playing in like March or something.

John Dehlin [02:43:51] Oh, wow.

Alyssa Alexander [02:43:53] Yeah, they're. They're going quick.

John Dehlin [02:43:54] So they're filming now.

Samantha Shelley [02:43:55] We're going to be back in the stud. So soon? No, exactly.

Alyssa Alexander [02:43:58] John, you have to catch up.

John Dehlin [02:44:00] I'll catch up. I've been busy doing what the church is trying to. Well, the church is threatening to be

Samantha Shelley [02:44:07] a multi billion dollar organization.

John Dehlin [02:44:09] Yeah, the church is seemingly threatening to sue me. So I've been a little busy anyway. Hopefully that'll be under control.

Alyssa Alexander [02:44:16] There's nothing more decompressing than like watching just more narratives of like sexual assault.

John Dehlin [02:44:23] Yeah, it sounds like a fun. Watch what y' all are saying.

Alyssa Alexander [02:44:26] Exactly. Real, real thrill.

Season Recap and Final Reflections

John Dehlin [02:44:28] Any summaries you want to make. This has been interesting and, and I think. No, I think these are really important discussions, really. I. I think what I want to say about season three of Secretizing Mormon Wives is that it's hitting. It's not becoming more superficial and less relevant to Mormons. And we kind of joked not so secret lies of not so Mormon, not so Wives. But the truth is the themes that are being discussed are core, serious, significant, pervasive Mormon themes. That's my takeaway. What are yalls takeaway?

Alyssa Alexander [02:45:02] Yeah, I think so too. I think anytime I would imagine Hulu, I mean, I'm making this up, of course, but you see a bunch of influencers who are famous for dancing and for swinging and it's like fun and light and you're trying to make a reality show a lot of other. Of like reality, like Housewife Adjacent, which I think is probably the closest that this show comes to. A lot of the drama I haven't seen. You know, there's so many iterations of Housewives, but with them, a lot of the drama is like inner circle drama. I'm even thinking of like the Whitney drama, for example, is very like, petty. It's leaving the group chat, coming back to the group chat. But with this show, like so much of the drama is that is their real lives is real trauma. And I think that a lot of viewers have had a lot of criticism of that, saying, like, I didn't want to watch actual trauma. I wanted to watch like, leave the group chat, join the group chat type of drama. But the problem and part of what I think is like, so Mormon about this show is that when we're actually looking into their real lives, purity culture is eroding these foundational relationships. And it's really sad. And I think it's also just like the way that so many people who grew up with under the thumb of a high demand religion, like, there is real trauma there, there is real, real religious shame there that is coming out that like, it can't just be a show about some of like the vapid silliness when you really dive into it and when you are committing to making more seasons and more episodes of it, the drama becomes unfortunately more or the secrets maybe that come out are more devastating than we originally thought. And I think that is unfortunately the Mormon story in a lot of ways.

John Dehlin [02:46:42] Amen.

Samantha Shelley [02:46:44] And I bet reality TV producers know from experience that if you put a camera crew in probably anyone's life, you're going to uncover some dirt because we don't live In a healthy society, people generally have, like, varying degrees of dysfunction in their relationships in their lives. So I think it's very easy to watch the show. And, you know, we, like, we get so fixated on litigating every little thing. I know. I do. I'm psychoanalyzing all of them, and I'm convinced that I'm the most accurate.

Alyssa Alexander [02:47:19] I'm in those for no reason.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:23] But I do just think. I mean, I just. What I like about what we kind of do in these episodes is I like when reality TV is just a jumping off point. We're talking about systemic problems and, yeah, just, like, learning more about the human condition. And I just think a lot, me trying to justify how unpopular some of my opinions are, but, like, I feel like it's kind of a practice to watch reality TV and try not to judge, but just to be like, what's going on here?

Alyssa Alexander [02:47:55] Like, have passion for the humans.

Samantha Shelley [02:47:57] Yeah. Which I feel like everyone on all the panels we've done has been, like, great. That's why it's been so fun to talk to you all.

John Dehlin [02:48:03] Do you ever get feedback that people are enjoying these panels?

Samantha Shelley [02:48:06] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:48:07] Yeah. I mean, how could you?

John Dehlin [02:48:08] Not exactly. I love it. I love it. You know, there's this idea of life imitating art, but then art imitating life, or. Or, you know, basically art influencing people, but then people influencing art. And. And it's kind of a virtuous cycle. Like, is. Is. Are these shows going to transform Mormonism? Are they transforming Mormonism? Is there going to be, like, this moment 50 or 100 years from now where they're like, you know, when Mormonism really changed, it was when that show, Secret Lies of Mormon Wives, appeared on Hulu. Each of you give you a prediction?

Alyssa Alexander [02:48:50] I hope so. I mean, it sounds funny, but honestly, like, I think we can just. Just based on how huge the show has been, I feel like the church has to respond to it. Like, perhaps at the beginning, they made their statement when season one came out, like, this is not representative of us. But I really. I can't see away based on just how popular this is, that this isn't either a turning point for either the church makes a change or the cultural opinions of the church changes, like, just based on how large it is. I think there's.

John Dehlin [02:49:21] What type of change do you mean?

Alyssa Alexander [02:49:22] Like, I mean, I think either the church is. They're going to have to continue loosening. I don't know if that's sustainable or not, but, like, just based on seeming less culty, they might have to try and like, seem more popular, perhaps like be less open about like being homophobic, things like that. But also with so much more awareness. I don't know. I could see it going either way. Like, the public is right now, I think, really intrigued by Mormonism. And once people start digging into it, what is the public perception going to be? I don't know. Perhaps they'll think they're cool and fun and sexy like you were suggesting. Or perhaps once more people are digging in, all of like the dark underbelly is uncovered and like Mormonism is seen collectively as, as more dangerous than it could down. Like the kind of goofy, funny, Amish adjacent religion that people have presumed it to be.

John Dehlin [02:50:19] Because I don't know if this is adjacent to what you're saying, but like all of these women are. Are Ruby Frankie's potentially waiting to happen, right? I mean, is that too dark?

Samantha Shelley [02:50:29] That might be harsh.

John Dehlin [02:50:30] Okay, that is harsh.

Alyssa Alexander [02:50:31] But like, but at least like some, like some sort of story, you know, like they're all famous. They're going to be known in some way. Maybe not, hopefully not for, for child

John Dehlin [02:50:41] abuse, but it's not so much. It's just fame. Fame. Fame is hard. Fame ruins people. Look at all the stars who implode with fame. All these women and men have become famous, their household names across the world. Now it's inevitable that they're going to be addiction, there's going to be abuse, there's going to be people breaking the law, and it's all going to be tabloid fodder.

Alyssa Alexander [02:51:07] Didn't Chase get a doi recently? That could be misinformation.

Samantha Shelley [02:51:12] But I just think just because you mentioned Ruby Frankie and I'm like, that is like a really. That feels like a deep case of psychopathy to be abusing children. I know she was also influenced by Jody.

John Dehlin [02:51:22] Bad example. So I'm warning true crime, some type of true crime.

Mikayla (Secret Lives of Mormon Wives) [02:51:25] Right.

Guest 2 [02:51:26] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:51:26] And. And I mean, I guess Ruby Frankie was definitely made vulnerable to Jody Hildebrandt style thinking because of Mormonism. But I don't. I mean, these women don't seem like they're gonna go in that direction.

John Dehlin [02:51:37] I. That was an extreme.

Samantha Shelley [02:51:38] Your examples of like, yeah, addiction and infidelity, you know, all those I think of. But maybe child abuse is like such a specific.

John Dehlin [02:51:46] Well, like one of the riskiest things the church has ever done is use celebrities to promote faithfulness because pop stars and actors and entertainers and musicians, they leave the church. David Archuleta, Tyler Glenn, Dan Reynolds, like Mindy Gledhill, like Musicians leave the church en masse. And movie stars, too. How many movie stars are ex Mormon right now? Popular movie stars have a dancing of the stars cast is ex Mormon. Am I wrong?

Samantha Shelley [02:52:16] Yeah. And I feel like it's because. To be an artist. I mean, just thinking about the entertainment industry, it's like, to be an artist, you have to. A good artist, you have to be able to connect with yourself. And so you. And you can't just do that through Mormonism. Like, so the. The whole Mormon shtick is, like, be psychologically dependent on our organization, and that's how you'll find happiness. But if people are wealthy or, like, they have an artistic career, like, all those things are, like, they're not dependent on Mormonism.

Alyssa Alexander [02:52:42] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:42] Yeah.

Alyssa Alexander [02:52:42] Sort of like, outside the Mormon perspective.

John Dehlin [02:52:46] I think these are PR disasters waiting to happen for the church, in my opinion.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:51] Yeah. I mean, anything having light shed on it.

John Dehlin [02:52:54] What.

Samantha Shelley [02:52:55] Anything that is brought into the light more, which even though the church wants to be separate themselves from these women, it's like, yeah, these women are obviously bringing Mormon issues into the light.

John Dehlin [02:53:04] Yeah, they are for sure. That's why.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:06] But they can just. No true Scotsman fallacy themselves to the bitter end and be like, that's actually nothing to do with us, even though we made all of them.

John Dehlin [02:53:15] How many seasons do you predict, Alyssa?

Alyssa Alexander [02:53:17] Ooh, I'm. I'm hoping, like, at least. At least nine. They're doing two a year. I think most reality shows do one a year, so they're really pumping them out.

John Dehlin [02:53:27] Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:28] I hope to be on this Mormon stories panel till retirement.

Alyssa Alexander [02:53:32] Just keep going back. John's like, please stop making these. I'm so ticket.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:36] We won't stop. We're gonna get worse every season in how much we care.

John Dehlin [02:53:40] There's. I mean, how many other big issues are there to cover?

Guest 2 [02:53:43] I.

Alyssa Alexander [02:53:44] So many.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:53:45] Really? They've covered patriarchy. They've covered LGBT stuff. They've covered, you know, sexual shame, and, I mean, come on.

Samantha Shelley [02:53:54] Well, I'd seem drinking.

John Dehlin [02:53:55] They've covered, you know, divorce and infidelity and swinging.

Samantha Shelley [02:54:00] I'd like to cover some more divorces. What, like a Michaela and Jace gonna stay together or are they gonna divorce Jesse and Jordan?

Alyssa Alexander [02:54:06] I don't know. I feel like.

John Dehlin [02:54:07] No, no, no. I'm not talking about drama. I'm talking about, like, core Mormon issues.

Samantha Shelley [02:54:12] But I. But, like, for example, the Michaela and Jace storyline that they've set up this season, it's like, well, now we know as the audience, so it's like, you can either Lie to us and pretend that it's got a bit better and just kind of try and let it fade into the background or you're going to get divorced or something. And so we'll be like, yeah, you can't just like sex therapy your way out of incompatibility. Like that would be something that could potentially be shown.

Alyssa Alexander [02:54:34] And we haven't talked about temple too much yet. Temple rituals.

John Dehlin [02:54:38] Okay, that's still there. All right.

Samantha Shelley [02:54:40] Child baptism. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:54:44] How about like church history?

Samantha Shelley [02:54:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:46] They haven't gotten into Joseph Smith and.

Alyssa Alexander [02:54:49] No, not at all. But I don't imagine some of them sure have to like Miranda. She's an ex Mormon, as is Jesse.

John Dehlin [02:54:57] They haven't hit racism super hard yet.

Alyssa Alexander [02:54:59] They've touched on it. Lightly, lightly, lightly, lightly.

John Dehlin [02:55:02] Yeah. Well, stay tuned, right? Stay tuned, stay tuned.

Samantha Shelley [02:55:07] Yeah, tune in.

Closing Thoughts and Guest Farewells

John Dehlin [02:55:09] All right, Samantha, tell people all the ways they can pay you to fix their problems.

Samantha Shelley [02:55:16] Just like cash straight to my Venmo. Well, if you're interested in having a coach to support you in a lot of the stuff we've talked about today that you think I would be a useful coach and it's samanthshellecoaching.com I am pretty passionate about relationships generally. I guess I feel like that's sort of my main area of passion with coaching. And then I'm on Zelf on the shelf everywhere or on my personal socials at the samspo. Is that what you meant?

John Dehlin [02:55:43] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:55:44] Did I do something wrong?

John Dehlin [02:55:48] I was trying to spell samspo S a M spo. Yeah. Which makes no sense. Alyssa, how do people follow you and give you money?

Alyssa Alexander [02:56:01] Yeah, always give me money. I'd love it just Alyssa Whitbeck on Instagram l words on TikTok. Maybe inspire me to. To get back out there. Alyssa.com I have like most of my reset publications on there. The most recent one is an essay in Exponent 2. If you're a book agent. Hey, hit me up. Be great. Currently querying a memoir about Mormonism right now and so going it's it. Well it took a pause during the whole the newborn stage by recently was inspired to pick it back up again. So starting it back up again.

John Dehlin [02:56:40] All right. Well y' all are wonderful. We're sorry Haley of Haley Rawl of a girls camp couldn't join us. We gave her too late notice. But we didn't want to let three weeks go by in the holidays.

Samantha Shelley [02:56:52] We simply couldn't.

John Dehlin [02:56:53] We couldn't.

Alyssa Alexander [02:56:53] Couldn't. I just had was just busting at the seams to talk about this.

John Dehlin [02:56:57] So we did it. So sorry. We love you, Haley. And yeah, thanks for joining us. We exist through the generous donations of our viewers and listeners. Thanks to everyone who donates to make this possible. If you don't donate and you value this type of content, you can Support us@mormonstories.org Donate or mormonstories.org Click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor. It's tax deductible in the US we're transparent in our finances and we pay our talent. So Alyssa gets paid, Samantha gets paid, Julie gets paid, everyone gets paid. You get a car, you get a car? No, but we can only do that when you donate. So please donate if you support this. If you hate this series. I had a friend come up to me and say, john, the Secret Lives of Mormon stuff, it's garbage. Don't do it.

Samantha Shelley [02:57:47] I'm like, it's like two videos out of like a hundred that you do.

John Dehlin [02:57:50] I'm like 2, 000 episodes. No, but, no but I mean like

Samantha Shelley [02:57:54] reality TV is a treat.

John Dehlin [02:57:55] I do two to three episodes a week. So can't you just skip one and not complain?

Samantha Shelley [02:57:59] I think it's, I get, I think there's something what, what they're rejecting in those episodes. It's like it's triggering something in them personally. That's really useful data that is especially

Alyssa Alexander [02:58:08] by, you know, media that is tends to be consumed mostly by women. Is there something there?

Samantha Shelley [02:58:13] Yeah, for sure. There's something being excessively triggered by John putting out Mormon stories episodes when clearly he's got no issues putting out a million episodes about everything all the time. It's not holding you back in any other area is my point.

John Dehlin [02:58:26] Yeah, that's probably true. Yeah, it's true. So anyway, don't complain if you don't like these episodes. Just skip them and watch the other stuff. I do. But if you like this stuff, email us and and comment and tell us how much you love this because it's a lot of work, right, Alyssa?

Alyssa Alexander [02:58:43] It's a lot of work.

John Dehlin [02:58:45] Yeah, but it's fun. And anyway, yeah, thanks. Please subscribe and like and comment and share and do all the things and we love your feedback. So email us@mormonstoriesmail.com we love. If you've got a great story and you want to be a traditional long form guest on Mormon Stories podcast, just go to mormonstories.org apply and apply to be on the show. We are always looking for interesting guests who have interesting stories to tell their stories or Mormon stories. So please apply that's also really important. Anyway, that's all for today. Thanks for joining us. Thanks again, Alyssa. Thanks, Samantha. Thanks to Julia, who's handling our production. And also, we miss you, Brooklyn. We're sorry you weren't able to join us. You were such a star last time. Brooklyn again, we organized this too late, and Brooklyn wasn't able to join us. But Brooklyn, you do great work in the post production. And we want Brooklyn back. Right?

Alyssa Alexander [02:59:52] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:59:52] Don't we want Brooklyn back?

Samantha Shelley [02:59:54] So I'm going to be in Devon in like a week.

John Dehlin [02:59:56] All right. Well, be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Be a peacemaker, be a bridge builder. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.