Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's March 13, 2023, and today we are answering the question, how does a faithful, devout, believing Mormon mother and wife leave the church after trying mushrooms or psychedelics or psilocybin? And why in the world would a believing, active, faithful Mormon wife and mother be trying mushrooms to begin with? That is what we're talking about today. And joining us in studio to talk about it is Stephanie Brinkerhoff. Hey, Stephanie.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:00:36] Hi. How are you?

John Dehlin [00:00:37] Thanks for joining us.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:00:38] Thank you so much for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:39] Our pleasure. We are also joined in studio by my partner in truth and righteousness, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:47] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Thanks for coming.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:48] Yes, I'm happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] And we're delighted to have in the studio back joining us again, the Samantha Shelley from Zelf on the Shelf. Hey, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:59] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] Now, Samantha, tell us why we brought you on.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:02] John told me he brought me on because I was the only person he knew with a mushroom tattoo, which is humiliating.

John Dehlin [00:01:07] Show the. Okay, there it is. Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:01:09] But it's a beauty.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:10] It's a choice I made. I don't want to be held to it.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:01:12] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] No. So let me give it just a few disclaimers. First of all, this is going to be just a normal Mormon story in the sense that Stephanie is a single mom living in Ogden, Utah. You're a hairstylist. You're kind of a famous Utah famous hairstylist.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:01:29] Kind of a big deal. What can I say?

John Dehlin [00:01:32] Followers on Instagram. But that's not. People always complain. Like, can't you just interview regular people? Do you feel like a regular person, Stephanie?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:01:39] Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, maybe amongst hairstylists, people would know who I am, but nobody else does.

John Dehlin [00:01:43] Hairstylists in Utah, around the world.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:45] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:01:45] I mean, like, I don't know, it's. It's a matter of opinion.

John Dehlin [00:01:48] What's your Instagram account?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:01:50] Hair and Makeup by Steph.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] Okay. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, hello to the half a million fans of Steph. But no, this is going to be a normal Mormon stories interview about someone's faith journey. It just happens to evolve. Involves psychedelics and specifically mushrooms or psilocybin. And I do want to give a disclaimer because I just want to acknowledge at the top, we are in no way condoning or promoting drug use as a part of this episode. Psilocybin and mushrooms, I believe are still illegal in the state of Utah. So we don't want him to think we're encouraging anyone to do anything illegal. And I personally am still very cautious about all the kind of word of wisdom things. Having said that, I've probably met thousands of post Mormons who have tried not only mushrooms or psilocybin, but LSD, ayahuasca, peyote, mescaline, DMT for years. Probably at least, at least for 10 years I have heard weekly or daily Post Mormons or progressive Mormons tell me about their psychedelics use. So it's been referenced on Mormon stories in the past as a part of people's stories. This is the first time we're kind of billing the episode as psychedelics being central to the story. And, and that's only because Stephanie, you said this is one of the main themes for you, is that right?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:03:15] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] Yeah. So I'm going to, at the top, recommend the book how to Change youe Mind by Michael Pollan or the Netflix documentary, which I believe is a three part documentary, how to Change youe Mind. Michael Pollan is a very reputable journalist who's written about food and diet historically. But for some reason a few years back he decided to focus on psychedelics. It's an amazing book and it's an amazing resource if you are even interested in considering psychedelics. But again, I just want to be delicate about that because this is in no way trying to promote or glorify. To this date. I've never had a psychedelic experience, but we want to validate that. Many, many, many people, thousands of people have said that it's been helpful. So I don't know any other disclaimers. Samantha, any disclaimer you want to add?

Samantha Shelley [00:04:05] No.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] No? Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:08] No.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] All right. Okay. Well with that let's go ahead and jump in with maybe. Stephanie. One of the things we like to do when we begin a Mormon stories interview is just to give people a chance to talk about maybe why, why they're not doing the interview and why they are doing the interview. Is there anything you want to say just in terms of your intention?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:04:29] Yeah, so I'm. I'm not doing the interview to talk about the nitty gritties of church history and stuff like that. I don't know very much about that. Still, even that wasn't what led me to where I am now. I mean, my exit out of the church was more of like a emotional slash spiritual process. So I just want to share my story of how I got to where I am.

John Dehlin [00:05:02] Okay, perfect. All right, and Margi and Samantha, please jump in with any questions or comments. It's great to have you both here. Today.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:10] Thanks, babe.

Stephanie's Mormon Heritage and Background

John Dehlin [00:05:11] Okay. Well, Stephanie, normally I like to just ask if there. If you're kind of. Your lineage goes way back in the church or if, you know, you or your parents were more converts. So where does your Mormon story begin?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:05:24] Yeah, it begins with the pioneers.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:05:27] Yeah, clear back at the beginning. So, yeah, it's been in my family for many generations.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] Okay. And, like, was there family lore about. About who. Who those ancestors were? Is that not a big part of your story?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:05:44] I mean, not really. It seems like my. There was one point when I was, like, in child. Child in childhood that they were like. I think that we're, you know, somehow related to Brigham Young or, you know, stuff like that. But. No, not really.

Samantha Shelley [00:06:01] West Flex, ever. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] Regarding your parents. Did. How'd your parents meet?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:06:10] I'm just curious how they meet. Yeah, I think they went to high school together.

John Dehlin [00:06:13] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:06:14] And you know where to? Roy High.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] Okay. Roy. Yeah, That's. That's Davis County.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:06:20] It's technically Weber county, but it's up there. Yeah, it's been around for, like, a billion years.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:06:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:06:28] So they met there, and they didn't date or anything until after my dad came home from his mission.

John Dehlin [00:06:33] So your dad served a mission. Okay. And your parents got married. How many kids did your parents have total?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:06:39] 4.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] 4. And were you in the birth order?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:06:41] I'm the baby.

John Dehlin [00:06:42] You're the youngest of four?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:06:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] Okay. All right, so what do you want to share about your kind of your childhood and how did Mormonism manifest itself in your childhood home?

An Idyllic Utah Mormon Childhood

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:06:52] Yeah, so my childhood, I feel like, was very close to ideal. My parents are incredible, like, salt of the earth people. There's no hypocrisy in them at all. They're just genuinely incredible human beings and so very attentive, you know, gave all of us kids a lot of attention. Always wanted to hear what we had to say. Tons of family time. They were, you know, the exact same people at church that they were at home. They're just really, really good people. And so my childhood was fantastic. I mean, you're essentially growing up in this sort of, like, ideal little safe, protected bubble where you're comfortable and you're taken care of, you have great community, great relationships with my friends, great relationships with all of my siblings. It was ideal.

John Dehlin [00:07:57] Did you guys do all the Mormon things at home, like family prayer, scripture study, family home, evening, all that stuff?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:08:02] Yeah, we did all the things. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:03] Yeah. Um, what. Where. What town did you grow up in?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:08:09] I grew up in Layton late.

John Dehlin [00:08:11] Okay. And for those who don't know where Layton is. For those never Mormons who've never been to Utah, where's Layton?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:08:17] It's like maybe 30 minutes north of Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [00:08:20] Okay. And in terms of, like, the Mormon orthodoxy spectrum, like, let's say Provo and like Alpine or Bountiful or tens, what's Layton?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:08:31] I feel like Layton's pretty up there. It's not as bad as, like, I mean, as high as, like, Farmington. Farmington, I would say, is like a 10.

John Dehlin [00:08:39] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:08:40] Layton's maybe like a 8.

John Dehlin [00:08:42] Okay. I would say Farmington's where. Where Lagoon is. The amusement park?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:08:47] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [00:08:48] What do you think makes the two point difference?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:08:50] I don't know. I think. I think Farmington's very sort of like, it's just very concentrated and very kind of like, well to do. And it feels like everyone's kind of the same and you just get a lot of, you know, people that are believing the same things in a very concentrated space where I feel like Leighton's a little bit more spread out and a little more diverse, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] Okay. Okay. So if you were to describe some of your most cherished Mormon church beliefs as a child. Well, just really simple. What would those be? How would you have borne your testimony back then?

Deep Faith and Belief Growing Up

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:09:31] I mean, I really loved Jesus. I felt such a connection to Jesus, you know, as. Even as a small child, I loved the idea that you had people that loved you, that were watching over you and taking care of you, even if you couldn't see. I loved that. So, yeah, I mean, and I love the idea that families were together forever. And it's like, Mormonism is so nice because it's very comforting for, like, the mind, because the mind loves, like, order, you know, it loves to have the answers to things. And so it was just so nice to be like, oh, I know what's gonna happen and I know where I'm gonna go when I die. And I know. I know everything, you know, Like, I don't have to have any questions. And it's all conven in this. In this little container.

John Dehlin [00:10:24] What did you believe about Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon growing up?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:10:27] Oh, yeah, like 100%.

John Dehlin [00:10:29] What about the. How would you describe.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:10:31] I mean, I. I would feel the spirit when I sang the praise to the man, you know, and read the Book of Mormon several times and just really felt like a connection to it. I mean. Yeah, it's like you look at those. Those paintings of Joseph Smith and you're just like, yes, I'm a part of something so special, you know, you can really feel it.

John Dehlin [00:10:54] So you were a sincere believer in all that in.

Samantha Shelley [00:10:57] In the years.

John Dehlin [00:10:58] Okay. Any family events in your. Or personal events in your childhood that you want to mention as a part of your story? Pre. Let's just say pre. Middle and high school?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:11:10] Not particularly, no. I feel like most of childhood, like, things didn't. Things didn't shift for me until I was in my 30s.

John Dehlin [00:11:19] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:11:19] And for my family as a whole, things didn't start to shift until, you know, we were all graduated from high school at least.

John Dehlin [00:11:27] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] Do you. Are you comfortable sharing what professions your dad and. Or mom had?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:11:33] Yeah, so my mom was a teacher, an elementary school teacher, but she didn't teach while we were young. I think she went back to teaching when she. When I was maybe a senior.

John Dehlin [00:11:42] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:11:42] And then my dad, he owned a fiber optics man, or. Yeah, a fiber optics business. They sold software to help people map their fiber optics. He, like, developed the software and sold it and whatever, but he has since sold that and is now retired.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] So he was kind of a techie guy or.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:11:59] I guess.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:00] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:12:01] I still get very confused about his.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:03] He was.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:12:03] He's technically a manufacturing engineer, so. So he's kind of like a Mr. Fix It. Like, anything that's broken, he can fix.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:10] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:12:11] So.

John Dehlin [00:12:11] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:12:13] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] And do y' all have any questions about her childhood?

Samantha Shelley [00:12:19] I guess. Well, it sounds like it was all very. Maybe tell me if I'm wrong, but your relationship with Mormonism was more, like, carrot than stick. Like, I feel like a lot of people tell their Mormon story in childhood through the lens of guilt and shame. But it sounds like for you, it was like this genuine joy.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:12:36] Absolutely. 100%. Like, my experiences in the church were 100% good, but I was always following the rules. And so it was easy for me to be like, oh, this is fantastic. All I have to do is, like, check off these things and, like, I'm good to go, you know? So. I never felt that sort of like, fear or shame or anything like that when I was a child. No.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:56] But it felt so natural to follow the rules.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:12:58] Yes. It felt like it fit me like a glove. I was like, oh, this place is perfect for me.

Samantha Shelley [00:13:03] Nice.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] Anything you want to say about what it was like going to church as a kid?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:13:09] I just loved it. I mean, I know this is probably not what you guys hear.

John Dehlin [00:13:12] No, I love it, but I differ.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:13:14] I loved it. I loved being a Mormon, going to

John Dehlin [00:13:17] church as a Mormon kid.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:13:18] I just.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:18] You.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:13:19] I mean, you have this, like, ideal community. Everybody thinks the exact same way you don't ever have to question anything. You don't ever have to feel like, you know, literally all you have to do is follow the rules and you're set for eternity, you know? And so it was just so nice. And plus, I've always been inherently, like, very spiritual. Like, I would get made fun of, even as a kid for being too spiritual.

John Dehlin [00:13:41] Meaning what?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:13:42] Meaning, like, I'd get called a Molly Mormon, or people would tell me I was, like, taking it too seriously or, you know, whatever. I always felt like I stood out in that way for our Never Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:13:51] What would it mean? What would someone be thinking when they called you a Molly Mormon? What would they be thinking?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:13:56] They'd be thinking? I mean, I think traditionally a Molly Mormon is someone who follows all the rules to a te. But for me, I. It was much more sincere than that. It wasn't necessarily just that I wanted to follow the rules. Like, oh, I don't want to break any rules, because I. Whatever it was, it felt very sincere for me. It was like, I truly believe that this is how you connect to spirituality and how you connect to God. And so I'm doing it as best as I can. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:14:24] Yeah. It probably meant you didn't swear and you.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:14:27] You know, I think I said my first swear word when I was, like, in my 20s.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:31] Okay, that's embarrassing.

John Dehlin [00:14:34] I shouldn't admit that you probably didn't see PG13 movies.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:14:37] I. I did, but I was very, very cautious. I was so. I was so sheltered. But it was of my own doing because I truly believed that that's how you, you know, could have this connection to God or whatever you want to call it.

John Dehlin [00:14:51] You said your prayers and registry?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:14:53] Yeah, I was an EFY counselor for, like, five years.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] Yeah, we'll get there.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:14:57] I guess I wasn't a counselor for five years, but anyway.

Family Dynamics and Church Identity

Margi Dehlin [00:15:01] Yeah, I have a quick question. In the way you're kind of describing your childhood with regard to your family and the church, it's kind of like two different systems. And what I'm hearing is an experience where it's really working for you. A lot of warmth and alignment. You know, I'm curious if. If you have any memories of, like, connecting to yourself outside those systems that stand out to you in particular, or would you say that in your memory it's kind of. You're really at one with, like, your family system? Really at one with the religious system?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:15:40] Yeah, it was completely enmeshed. Completely enmeshed. And so I couldn't. I couldn't See it at the time that it wasn't what was actually happening underneath, you know, for me, like, emotionally. But at the time, it was just. There was no separation. Yeah. It's like if I were connecting to myself, it would be through that lens.

John Dehlin [00:16:03] Got it.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:03] And I just have a quick question with regard to your parents. So I'm hearing you kind of say that you really loved rules you obeyed, and so it really worked on, you know, in an important way for you. Did you ever observe your siblings be in a different kind of place where maybe they weren't they related in a different way and maybe experienced different feelings with regard to your parents? Or did you feel like it was kind of unilateral, just, you know, unequivocal warmth? Like, how would you talk about that?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:16:34] Yeah, so my siblings, I definitely watched and learned from them in their processes. Cause they were more. Some of them were, like, more rebellious than I was or whatever. But my parents were never, like, the punishing type. And so even though it was, like, difficult for them to navigate those situations, with my siblings, there was always a lot of love. You know, it wasn't like they were, like, disowning anybody or, you know, telling anybody that they're going to hell or anything like that. It was just like, I could see that they were genuinely trying to navigate the situation in, like, the best way that they could in the most loving way. But I was definitely very observant of that.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:17] Okay, so it sounds like the perfect Mormon childhood, would you say? The ideal Mormon childhood.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:17:22] Yeah. And it's like, I. I think it's like, I get why people stay. Like, if I, I. I'm pretty sure I would have stayed for my whole life. I mean, there's so many people where it's like the church doesn't work for them in that way, but there's so many others, as you guys know, where it's like, it is working for them. And I was one of those people. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:41] Okay. Switching to middle and high school is. What would you. Is there anything you would want to say about your story? Or are you just going to say it was the perfect middle and high school?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:17:49] It really was. It really was. I feel like it was.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:53] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:17:54] I mean, I. I was just the same. I mean, I was just doing all the things. I loved seminary. I loved going to young women's stuff. I. I loved all my friends. I just had, like, a really good support system, you know, and so, yeah, there's not. I mean, I can obviously, I can look back now and talk about it differently, but at the time it was just really good memories.

John Dehlin [00:18:22] Did you go to youth dances?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:18:24] Uh huh. Just did all the Book of Mormon

John Dehlin [00:18:26] length between you and the person, the boy you were dancing with?

Samantha Shelley [00:18:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:32] And you went to seminarial? 4 years. This was release time during school. Were you. You weren't a Davis Dart, you were

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:18:40] a Layton, Northridge, Knight.

John Dehlin [00:18:43] Northridge Knight, yeah. And that's in Davis County?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:18:47] Uh huh. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:48] Okay. Okay. Northridge. So there's Dayton, Layton and Northridge.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:18:53] Are those the three kind of Layton, Davis and Northridge?

Margi Dehlin [00:18:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:56] What did I say?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:18:56] Dayton? Did you say Dayton?

John Dehlin [00:18:58] Yeah. Are those all, Are those schools all close to each other?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:19:01] They are, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] Are they all kind of rivals? Yeah. Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:19:04] I'm assuming they still are.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] Yeah. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:08] So.

John Dehlin [00:19:09] And your testimony, did it, did it grow in high school?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:19:13] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like that's when I really was sort of stepping into my own identity. At least I thought my own identity, you know, my own way of being. Yeah. Like shortly after is when I started go, or I guess I went to efy. You go to EFY when you're in high school, right? Is that the age? I cannot remember. Yeah. So I went to EFY for like 5 years. All 5 years. Just living my best Mormon life forever Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:19:40] EFYs especially for youth. It's like a church campus. Mormon church camp for youth. Right?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:19:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:47] And you dug all the music.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:19:48] I was just loving it. Just eating it up.

High School Years and Social Pressures

John Dehlin [00:19:53] So oftentimes there's this conflict arises at this point point in the story for many where either they have some type of shame, some type of. They're tempted to break the word of wisdom and try alcohol or drugs or sexual experimentation or some type of shame with Bishop's interviews or whatever. I'm going to. I think I know what you're going

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:20:13] to say, but I never, like I was. It was so indoctrinated to me, into me. That those things were coming from Satan and that they were dangerous that I just didn't even consider it. I'm like, why would anybody risk being tempted by the adversary? You know, I was just so, so convinced. So I just completely. I mean, I've never, I never had to confess anything to a bishop ever.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] You know, so no drugs or alcohol as a teen experimentation?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:20:44] No nothing.

John Dehlin [00:20:45] And dating, like dating in Utah is weird. I don't think people realize how weird dating is. Do you want to talk about what it's like to date? Not date in Utah?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:20:53] Well, I mean, it's like, how do you. How do you even call it dating? You know, it's like you. You meet someone and you can't really see if you're fully compatible. It's almost like you just become really good friends with someone and then you're like, maybe we should get married. You know? So it is. It's very bizarre.

John Dehlin [00:21:15] But isn't there a thing where, like, you'll have all these dances throughout the year, like homecoming or, like, some type of Sadie Hawk girls choice thing or whatever, or prom, but you. You can never go with the same person twice.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:27] Yeah, you can't.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:21:28] Yeah, yeah. You're not supposed to, like, have one person that's, like, exclusively who you're seeing, you know, Or. A lot of parents had rules that were like, if you go out with this person two times, you have to go out with someone else two more times, and then you can. You know what I mean?

Margi Dehlin [00:21:42] Dilute it.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:21:43] Yeah, dilute it. Spread it out a little bit.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:45] Like, I just.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:21:46] Weird stuff like that. But I never had any of those rules because I didn't want, like, I was, like, afraid of, you know, boys. And so I just. It wasn't even an issue for my parents, you know?

John Dehlin [00:21:56] So no boyfriend in high school?

Margi Dehlin [00:21:58] No.

John Dehlin [00:21:58] Not at all.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:21:59] None. No.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:00] Not even a big, crippling teenage crush?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:22:01] Oh, tons of those.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:03] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:22:03] Yeah. But there was, like, ones where you, like, see them from afar and you don't ever talk to them.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:07] They call you the enormous stalker. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:10] And then you can kind of create them into what you realize

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:22:16] Sam knows.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] Okay, so lots of crushes, but no boyfriends.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:20] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:22:20] Yeah. No, I was. I was much. I mean, if you guys can't tell, I was very, very naive, very innocent, very. Just, like. I mean, what I would have called at the time, very pure.

John Dehlin [00:22:32] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:34] Gorgeous. What kind of things stressed you out as a child or teen or if you got upset about things, what. What would they be? I know that's kind of broad, but,

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:22:44] I mean, I feel like similar things to a lot of people. Like, feeling left out, feeling like I was different, feeling like I didn't belong, feeling like I was weird.

Samantha Shelley [00:22:54] And was that because of how pure you were?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:22:57] Yeah, like, I felt like I was too. I was too Mormon. And so I felt. But then I felt like the other people who were also, quote, unquote, too Mormon, I didn't really mesh with their, like, personalities. So I was like. I don't know, like, where I fit, if that makes sense.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:12] Yeah, I sort of relate to that.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:23:14] Yeah. Oh.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:15] I was gonna ask, you know, what your interests were Kind of in your developing years.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:23:20] Yeah, I was a cheerleader, but I was one of the, like, ones that nobody knew I was a cheerleader. I was like in the back always. People would be like, wait, you were a cheerleader? But my best friends were cheerleaders, so we did that. I danced and I was big into painting. My. You'll. You'll love this. My dream job when I was, like in high school was to paint murals in the temple. That's, like, literally what I wanted to do was grow up and do that. Now look at me. Look at me now.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] What do you mean you? Look at you now.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:23:51] Fallen off the path.

Samantha Shelley [00:23:52] I mean, the mystery. You're very wholesome. And I don't think psychedelics make a person less wholesome, you know? Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:23:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] So cheerleading, painting and dancing, Is that right?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:24:03] Yeah.

Education, Career, and Expectations for Mormon Women

John Dehlin [00:24:04] What were you taught about education and career after high school as a Mormon young woman?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:24:10] I never thought it was something that I would have to even think about. I never planned on having a career. I never. I just planned on being a stay at home mom, honestly. And my career sort of took off unintentionally and kind of like fell into my lap. And I was like, by the time that I had kids, I was like, oh, well, I can't just like, this career works really well with also being a mom, you know, But I had never planned on it.

John Dehlin [00:24:38] So, like, were you taught, get all the education you can so that you can have a great career?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:24:43] Heavens no.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] What was it?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:24:45] It was that your husband will take

John Dehlin [00:24:46] care of you, so do what.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:24:49] So do I.

Samantha Shelley [00:24:50] Don't.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:24:50] For me, it was just like, do whatever you want. I guess just. I guess I'll go to hair school, you know, But I didn't plan on actually needing it, you know, it was like, oh, I'll just have my husband, he'll take care of me.

Samantha Shelley [00:25:04] And did that sound like a nice plan? Did you like the idea of being a student?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:25:08] I thought I did. I thought I did. But once again, it's one of those things that was so fed to you that you're like, this is what you want. This is what you need.

Samantha Shelley [00:25:15] A fairy tale in your mind.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:25:16] This is what's going to make you happy. But in reality, like the true me.

John Dehlin [00:25:20] We'll get there.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:25:21] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:22] When you get. When you went to hair school, did you love it? Like, was there part of you that kind of.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:25:28] I did life. I did love it. Yeah. I actually knew it was at like a young woman's activity when I had my hair done by somebody and I was like, oh, my gosh, I love this. And so I knew from the time I was probably 13 that that's what I wanted to do.

Samantha Shelley [00:25:46] So, yeah, I loved it.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:25:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:48] You knew you wanted to do hair since you were 13 because of a young women's event.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:25:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:53] In the Mormon Church.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:25:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:55] Well, it was hair or paint the murals and the exact queen. Either. Either one of those.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:26:00] They're both beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] Okay. Okay. Anything else about your high school years in terms of, like, important things in your story?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:26:12] It was just. It was just ideal.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] You loved it.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:26:15] I loved it, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:16] You loved being a Mormon young woman in Layton.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:26:20] I did, yeah. It fit me like a glove.

John Dehlin [00:26:23] You went to prom and all that. Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:26:25] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:26:26] I have a question about that, because you. You say it was ideal, but then you also talk about how, you know, you felt like a bit of an outsider was. It was the amount you kind of felt like an outsider. It just felt sort of manageable.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:36] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:26:37] Like it wasn't this huge.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:26:38] Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [00:26:39] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:26:39] Exactly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:41] Did you have your crowd of friends?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:26:42] Yeah, I had my close friends. People that I ran around with. And so, yeah, it wasn't anything that I felt was, like, unbearable. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:26:50] Did you have any type of superiority complex about just kind of being so pure? Especially given that other people.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:26:58] If you were to ask me at the time, I would say no, of course.

Samantha Shelley [00:27:01] Yeah, of course. Because you're so humble.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:27:03] Yeah, exactly. Because Mormons. Mormons are. I wasn't judgmental. Heavens, no. You know, that's. That's how I would have responded at the time. Definitely.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:13] Yeah. Oh, it's okay.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] Okay. Okay. So you graduate from high school having been a cheerleader, having had a great group of friends, kind of living the Mormon dream. No drama, no trauma that you would have identified at the time. No shame. None of the Mormon guilt and shame. You might be the first. You might be the first person I've ever interviewed that made it through high school with no Mormon guilt or shame. I think. Amanda, I think. Samantha, I think you were Mormon for, like, 12 minutes, but didn't you have guilt and shame?

Samantha Shelley [00:27:47] Five and a half years. Okay. And I was a really strong. No, no, no. I'm in doubt.

John Dehlin [00:27:51] No, I mean, what age did you convert?

Samantha Shelley [00:27:53] Yeah, I was, like, 16.

John Dehlin [00:27:55] I'm just saying. Yeah, you would have only had a year or two in the church. You would have had guilt and shame.

Samantha Shelley [00:27:59] Not really. I think just because it wasn't planted in there as a child and because I. I felt like, well, I'm doing this freely of my own accord. So I already feel like people at church were so impressed with me almost.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] And you were celebrated.

Samantha Shelley [00:28:15] And also, I was. I instantly got down with the rules anyway. And I also really enjoyed the structure of rules and. Yeah, it's just like, you plug in this formula, you get whatever. So, I mean, guilt and shame maybe came into play a little bit in college and stuff, but I feel like for my high school years, which was, I think was like a year and a half, that was a woman in high school. Not really too much guilt and shame.

John Dehlin [00:28:36] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:28:37] Just hype.

John Dehlin [00:28:38] Right. Okay, cool.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:39] Margi, I was curious if, you know, you have any memories about high expectations or ever feeling a bit of a crunch there in whatever way or, you know, what was your experience? And that would be like, church expectations, family expectations. If you ever remember that, feeling heavy or something other than effortless and a fit.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:29:09] Not at the time. Not at the time. I thought that whatever it was, whatever the expectations were, I could do it, you know, because my parents are genuinely very happy and they have a really good life. And so I would just. And I really trusted them, you know, and I love them. So I would look to them and it was just like, okay, like, if I follow the same formula, like, I will be. I'll be happy and I'll be okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:35] Yes. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:29:36] I feel like this whole thing is really showing the power of not having early childhood trauma, because for the majority of people who are Mormon, you're growing up with early childhood trauma. And then the church is like, mostly, like, interacting with that in a way that is not really helpful and is adding to the guilt and shame. But it seems like you had. You described your parents as really warm and you always got enough attention. I think it's interesting. And maybe if we have a brilliant 0 to 6 or, you know, just a good. A safe early childhood, the. The things don't, you know, don't impact us as negatively. Even though, as you said, there's. There's more of a story to be told as you gain understanding as an adult. But still, you can't put a price on no trauma from zero to six.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:30:22] It's. Yeah, it's interesting, and I don't want to jump ahead, but it's interesting because I would almost say that the. The trauma was all there. It was just so, so repressed.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:32] Okay. I take everything I say.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:30:34] Just kidding.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:36] You're a brilliant storyteller.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:37] And that's the thing, right? Like, you don't know what you don't know.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:30:40] You don't know what you don't Know. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:30:42] I can't wait to hear it.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:30:43] Just.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:44] But it just. Your perception at the time was. This is all perfect.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:30:47] Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [00:30:47] Vibing with this.

Life Goals, Marriage, and Starting a Family

John Dehlin [00:30:50] So, graduating from high school, if you were to describe what your hopes were for your life, how would your life play out? What were all the milestones you were going to hit once you graduated? Take us all the way to your death. In terms of milestones from 18 to death, what were the Mormon milestones?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:31:07] Mormon milestones. You get married in your early 20s, you start having kids in your mid to late 20s, and then your life stays the same for the next 60 years, and all your kids just grow up and everyone loves each other and everyone's the same, and you just live

John Dehlin [00:31:26] the Mormon dream and you marry who? Or what?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:31:30] Who did I marry?

John Dehlin [00:31:31] No, no, you're supposed to marry. What type of man?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:31:35] A returned missionary, of course.

John Dehlin [00:31:38] Where?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:31:38] Marry the woman in the temple. Of course.

John Dehlin [00:31:41] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:41] And then hopefully your kids will all, what, someday?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:31:44] Yeah. Do the same thing, right? Yeah. Follow in your footsteps.

John Dehlin [00:31:47] And then when you're old and retired, you do what?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:31:49] You go on a mission, right? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:51] I'm not trying to plant all this. Was this.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:31:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:54] Was this all.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:31:55] Oh, totally.

John Dehlin [00:31:56] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:31:56] Yeah, I used to dream about, like, being a mission president's wife and stuff like that.

Samantha Shelley [00:32:00] What a dream.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:32:01] What a dream.

Samantha Shelley [00:32:02] It's gonna be great. Love excess labor.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:32:09] So did you consider college at all

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:32:12] outside of beauty school? No.

John Dehlin [00:32:14] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:32:15] Yeah, I knew that that's what I wanted to do.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] So where'd you go to beauty school?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:32:18] It was called Taylor Andrews up in Layton.

John Dehlin [00:32:21] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:32:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:23] And when you did that, what were you thinking would happen in terms of, like, how would your career play out?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:32:28] Yeah, I was thinking I would just, like, work in the salon until I had kids, and then I would just maybe do hair out of my house, you know?

John Dehlin [00:32:35] And then a lot of the people that I meet who have been Mormon planned on finding their spouse at byu. You didn't even plan to go to byu? Talk about that?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:32:44] No. Yeah, I mean, I was like, maybe I'll meet him at Mutual or at these, you know, fire. They do some sort of, like, firesides, right. Like, for, like, young adults, stuff like that. Or maybe I'll meet him through friends, you know, so. Yeah, I just. I was always on the lookout, though. Of course, you always got to be looking for your. For your spouse.

John Dehlin [00:33:07] Eternal companion.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:33:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:09] So your parents didn't encourage you to go to college?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:33:12] No, but they didn't. They weren't against it, but they were just, like, you don't. You know, it wasn't something that they were like pushing me to do either, you know, I just always knew I wanted to do hair.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:33:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:23] Okay. So where did. So what happened after high school?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:33:26] So I went to beauty school and met my ex husband. Now at probably. I probably was 19 or so we were married by. I think I was barely 22. Got married in the temple.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:45] Did you date for three years.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:33:47] So I know, right? That's like very unworming scandal.

John Dehlin [00:33:50] I know.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:33:51] No, we were friends for a long time. He actually came in to me to get his hair cut and I cut his hair for probably a full year.

John Dehlin [00:33:59] That's how you met him?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:34:00] Yeah, well, kind of. We met after a football game, a Weber State football game. And we had mutual friends and he heard that I was a hairstylist. And then he was like, you know, he's like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna sneak in the door, you know. And so he started coming to me to get his hair cut and I cut his hair. Yeah, for probably a year or over a year. And then we were friends for a while. So total, I think we. We knew each other for a minute before we actually started dating. But from the time we started dating to when we got married, it was probably. It was less than a year, you know.

John Dehlin [00:34:33] And had he already served a mission by the time you first met?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:34:36] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:34:37] So he was the return missionary. Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:34:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:40] And so you are engaged by what age?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:34:43] Like 22, 23, maybe 21. 21, 22. Somewhere in there.

John Dehlin [00:34:48] And married.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:34:49] Married, yeah. So married less than a year later. Maybe like 22, nine or ten months later.

Samantha Shelley [00:34:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:54] What were your, kind of your beliefs about marriage and kind of what you were looking for and how it was going to work?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:35:02] I mean, I mostly was just hoping for what my parents had and even my siblings will all say that too, where it's like they had this sort of ideal marriage where it was. I never heard my parents yell. I've never heard them yell still. I don't think I've ever even seen them argue. I mean, I know they do, but. But it's not something that. That's like this anyway, this huge issue for them. And so I was hoping for that, you know, just like a really peaceful, you know, sort of wonderful addition to your life who just only makes your life better. And then you work together just so nicely without any issues.

Samantha Shelley [00:35:40] Was he your first relationship? Did you have any?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:35:43] He was my first long term relationship. Yeah. I mean, I. I think before that, the longest I had dated somebody, was maybe four months, which is very. A very. Yeah. Common. I feel like.

John Dehlin [00:35:56] So kind of your first real boyfriend you married?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:35:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:59] Is that right?

Samantha Shelley [00:36:00] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:36:00] And that's pretty standard, I feel like.

John Dehlin [00:36:02] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So anything you want to say about, like, the temple marriage? Was that everything you hoped it would be? Was it a Davis County, Martin Weber county wedding?

Temple Wedding and Early Marriage

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:36:15] We got married in Bountiful. Bountiful Temple.

John Dehlin [00:36:18] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:36:19] And then did our reception after in Layton. You know, very typical Mormon setup. You do your temple wedding and then you go do like a luncheon, and then you have a big open house where, you know, your. All your stake members come, that you've never even met half of them, and you stand in a line and you say, thank you for coming. And.

Samantha Shelley [00:36:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:43] Okay. And did you pray about him, whether Heavenly Father wanted you to marry him?

Margi Dehlin [00:36:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] What did Heavenly Father say?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:36:51] I mean, I remember that I didn't get an answer.

Samantha Shelley [00:36:54] And that was your answer, and that was my answer because you already knew that.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:36:58] I didn't, but I was like, then, of course you have ways of being like, well, if I'm not getting an answer about this, then that means that Heavenly Father trusts me to decide for myself. So that's how that works. So it works out.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:16] So you never got the answer.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:37:17] No.

John Dehlin [00:37:18] But you kind of talked yourself into.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:37:19] Well, I loved him. I loved him a lot. I was like, this person is fantastic. You know? And so I didn't. You know, it's like, heavenly Father, trust me to make this decision.

John Dehlin [00:37:30] Nice.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:30] In young women's. Did you ever, like, write. Lists qualities that you were looking for in the.

Samantha Shelley [00:37:37] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:38] Do you remember kind of what you wrote? And if your first, like, if your ex husband was like, it seems like

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:37:44] I wrote things about like, that he would go to the temple with me regularly and that we would, like, read our scriptures together and somebody that made me feel like I wanted to be a better person, things like that. But yeah, it's really. I wouldn't say that he. That he wasn't those things, but, you know, it's no surprise that my ideal sort of perception of reality, it didn't match up to what I was actually experiencing in my marriage, you know, but that's just reality. It's not like there was anything horrific happening. It was just not what I had perceived based on my upbringing, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:38:30] Such a good point.

John Dehlin [00:38:31] Okay, so you get married at age 22. 22. And did he. Did he have college plans? Was he already in a profession? And then how did you. What did you Guys decide about kids and stuff.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:38:45] Yeah. So he was in school.

John Dehlin [00:38:48] Oh, wait. How was the temple ceremony for you?

Margi Dehlin [00:38:51] It's good.

John Dehlin [00:38:52] You, like, you enjoyed the temple?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:38:53] Yes. And so many people talk about how when they go through the temple the first time, they're like, what? And I was just like, not that way at all. It's like, this is beautiful. Oh, my gosh. I love this so much, you know? So I thought it was great.

John Dehlin [00:39:07] Okay. Okay. This is awesome.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:39:10] Am I blowing your minds?

John Dehlin [00:39:11] Yeah, a little. Maybe it's just who I choose.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:39:14] I feel like it's probably blowing your minds that I'm sitting like that. I. Where I'm at now.

John Dehlin [00:39:17] It's probably blowing your mind.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:39:19] Yeah, it is blowing my mind. It's blowing a lot of people's minds. Most people are like you. Like, you left of all people.

Samantha Shelley [00:39:26] Don't you think that are quite. Maybe the sample of this podcast is skewed for obvious reasons, but I do feel like there are a lot of people who just have an ideal Mormon upbringing and never doubt or I'll be honest.

John Dehlin [00:39:39] If it's skewed, it's skewed towards people who are bishops in bishoprics, in relief Society presidencies. Because I always. If I have a bias, it's probably trying to get the most in it, to win it. Types of people, because I think those make the most powerful stories. But.

Samantha Shelley [00:39:56] But the people that are willing to tell their stories, I mean. Yeah. The people who have analyzed it enough to. To have that. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think it's not. I don't know, it doesn't seem that atypical for people to just kind of have it all be idyllic and for them to just love it. And I know a lot of people do hate the temple, but I bet there is also a lot of people who are just, like, so into it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:17] Now, this is super atypical, and I'm loving it.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:21] Well, it's atypical for our lens and for who may end up here, so I totally love that point, Samantha, about this. Like, we may not see on the podcast here, you know, the people who did or continue to are still loving it and where it still fits, and that's important to acknowledge.

Samantha Shelley [00:40:40] And also. Yeah. I mean, your whole perception of what you love and what fits is, like, completely defined by that. So it's, like, so tough to say, but I almost feel like we're amping up the idea that this is such a crazy niche story that no one else has. Obviously, like, there are super unique aspects to it.

John Dehlin [00:40:57] But you're saying sampling bias. That's what you're saying.

Samantha Shelley [00:40:59] I don't know really what I'm saying. I'm saying nothing. It seems.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:41:03] We'll just hold it.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:04] We hold it in.

Samantha Shelley [00:41:04] You know what I'm saying, though? The ideal moment.

John Dehlin [00:41:07] Yeah, I'll just try to say what I'm saying, which is that I interview people that were APS on their mission and relief Society presidents and, like, you know, again, bishopric and relief study presidency and stake presidency and Stake High Councils. And for almost all of them, there's still family trauma. There's still childhood trauma. There's almost always word of wisdom or law of chastity, guilt and shame in their high school years. There's almost always some sort of problems on their mission and a lot of trauma along the way, even for the people that were super high performers.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:41:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:45] So I'm just saying this like, it was idyllic from start until marriage.

Samantha Shelley [00:41:50] Although Stephanie did say that she is gonna talk us retroactive.

John Dehlin [00:41:56] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:41:56] The reason I felt like it's important to say that is I just don't want to give believers listening the idea that. Because I think more, you know, believers would see Stephanie as like, yes, that's how it should be.

John Dehlin [00:42:07] Right.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:08] And there really are a lot of people that leave Mormonism who did have the perfect thing, who didn't do anything wrong sexually, who didn't, you know, drink. They would never do drugs. You know, a lot of people who leave Mormonism were quote, unquote, perfect and did have the idyllic experience. And so I guess I'm bringing that up just because I don't want to make it seem to believers like, oh, there's never anyone who's super pure that goes in woman's story, because, yeah, you know, it's.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:33] That would be problematic.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:35] All right. Yeah, that's good. Okay, so let's talk about your marriage years.

Having Children and Cracks in the Marriage

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:42:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:41] Yeah. What happened next?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:42:43] So after I had kids was when I started developing pretty intense anxiety.

Samantha Shelley [00:42:50] When did you have your first?

John Dehlin [00:42:51] How many kids and how fast?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:42:53] So I had my first. So my first were twins, and I was probably. Oh, dear. How old was I? They just turned 9, so I was 25.

Samantha Shelley [00:43:05] And was it easy to choose to have them? Like, did it just all feel like the right time?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:43:10] This is another one of those things where it's like, looking back, I'm like, I can see a lot that I couldn't see at the time, but at the time, like, I never felt like I wanted kids. I Never felt that. You know, a lot of people grow up with that sort of like, they just really, like, are hungry for that. I never felt that. It was kind of like a. I guess this is what we do now, you know, and so. And we both kind of were that way, I think. I mean, I can't speak for him, but it was just kind of like. I guess we're at the age where we kind of start talking about having kids, I guess, you know, and so it wasn't like, it was an issue for us, but it wasn't something that we were just, like, dying to, you know, get started with.

John Dehlin [00:43:50] So you didn't, like, have, like, honeymoon pregnancies, though, so you decided to wait at least 20 years?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:43:56] We waited. I think it was like, three or four years.

Samantha Shelley [00:43:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:59] Yeah, that's so. That's atypical. Most, even. Margi and I were pregnant within a year of our marriage.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:05] So what led your decision to hold off a few years?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:44:07] I think it's just not in my nature. Like, I was just petrified of being a mom. And for me, getting married was way less of a big deal than having kids. I was like, I can, you know, marry someone and my life will pretty much stay the same, but if I'm having kids, like, that is like, your life is not ever the same. And so I was really just like, freaked out by the idea, I think. So I waited till the ripe age of 25.

John Dehlin [00:44:36] Okay, and so what was it like for you to have. You had twins first without. I mean, you don't have to answer this. Yeah, twins are associated with, like, IVF or something.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:44:47] Yeah, no, and they're not genetic either. Apparently, identical twins can just be, like, a fluke. And so, yeah, it was a total shock. I was in denial for many months. I was like, there's not two in there. Like, there's no way I'm having twins, you know? So it was huge surprise.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:04] Wow. And thinking about that with your earlier trepidation of, like, how it changes.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:45:09] I know.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:10] Yes.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:45:10] Cool.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:11] 2.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:11] Even more so, I would imagine.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:45:13] Yeah, Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:45:14] Okay, so. But you had twins. Was everything okay up to that point, or did cracks start to develop?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:45:21] The only thing was, you know, my relationship with my husband, we weren't super. It wasn't, like, as spiritual as I was hoping, which is so funny because it was such a big deal to me at the time. But he was just more. He was a lot more balanced and, like, well rounded. I feel like I was the one that was very, like, hyper, you know, I guess Religious is the right word. And so. But it was mostly really good. Like, we had a really good group of friends. Just, you know, we traveled a ton. Just living the life. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:57] Was he. When you. When you thought about spirituality, did you think about your dad or mom?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:46:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:03] And you were. Were you comparing him to your dad and mom?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:46:06] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:07] And what was he not doing that they would do or vice versa?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:46:10] Well, I mean, he was like, I'm not gonna go to the temple with you every week. Like, that's insane. You know, and at the time, I'm, like, so sad about it, but he's just, like, having boundaries, you know what I mean? Like, practicing being more balanced.

John Dehlin [00:46:23] Did your parents go to the temple every week?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:46:25] I don't know that they went every week, but they were very regular. Like, very, very regular. And they. Yeah, so of course I was. I mean. And that's what you do. When I grew up, how I did, at least, it was like, I'm comparing everything to what they had.

John Dehlin [00:46:42] But you wanted to go to the temple every week?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:46:44] Yeah, I was that person. That was me.

John Dehlin [00:46:46] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:46:47] Yeah. It's crazy.

John Dehlin [00:46:48] And did you go without it? Wait, you. You did, too?

Samantha Shelley [00:46:51] Yeah. For the short time, though. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:53] Yeah. Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:46:54] Yeah, I would go without him. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:55] You would go weekly to the temple?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:46:57] I mean, I didn't. Not all the time, but I'd go through phases where I was going regularly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:01] As you could.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:47:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:02] Okay. How else was he not living up to your Peter priesthood standards?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:47:06] That's pretty much it. You know, it was a bad boy. Yeah. He's such a rebel.

John Dehlin [00:47:12] So you were having. Did you have couples prayer? Did you do couples scripture study, any of that?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:47:17] Sometimes we would, but it was another one of those things where, like, I was planning on doing that all the time, and he was just kind of like, you know, a lot more grounded, I feel like, you know.

John Dehlin [00:47:29] And did you do three hours of church every. Every Sunday?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:47:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] And serving your callings and all?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:47:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:36] With. With babies.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:47:37] With babies.

John Dehlin [00:47:38] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:47:39] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:47:40] So how did things progress?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:47:41] So, yeah, after I had kids is when I started to get really bad anxiety. And I would say depression, too, but it's not. It wasn't like the typical sort of like, constant flatness. It was, like really high highs and then really low lows and, you know, just like up and down, up and down, up and down. And so that's when I got on, like, an antidepressant for the first time was after that, what age was probably 26 or 27.

John Dehlin [00:48:05] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:48:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:07] Because the anxiety and depression got really bad.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:48:09] Yeah. I mean, I'd never really. I think I had always had it, but I was really good at maintaining my life in a way that made me feel comfortable. And so now that I had kids, it felt like there was so much more that was out of control. You know, it was just like, I. Kids are. It's still really hard for me because it's something that you love so much that you can't necessarily protect. You know, like, you do your best, but you can't. You can't control that.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:31] Yes.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:48:32] And so it was like all of that was hitting for me and it was really hard for me to. I don't know, I was essentially losing control of everything that I had. Felt like I had control of, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:48:42] Yeah, that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:48:44] So did you consider stopping with the twins?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:48:47] Um, I think if. I think we could have had just two if they weren't twins, but because we had them at the same time, I was like, I feel like we should have at least one more. And so we had. Probably four years later, we had a little boy.

John Dehlin [00:49:01] You waited four? Now that's also, I'm going to say, in my view, atypical.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:49:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:05] Because normally it's like every two years.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:49:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:07] You know?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:49:08] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] Mormon. Mormon couples are having kids.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:49:10] I had two. So I was like, okay, we need a. We need to wait a minute before I. We introduce a third one, you know?

John Dehlin [00:49:17] You waited four years for your third child?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:49:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:20] And then at what age you had your. What age? Your third.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:49:24] Oh, at what age? How old was I then? 29.

John Dehlin [00:49:27] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:28] Or.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:49:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:29] Somewhere around there and then. That make things better or worse?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:49:32] No, it was like from the time I had my twins until the time I did mushrooms, it was like my anxiety and depression was progressively getting more and more and more unmanageable, slowly. So that was a what, a seven

John Dehlin [00:49:46] year period, I guess, between your third child?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:49:49] Between my first kids and the time I did mushrooms, it was like.

John Dehlin [00:49:53] So. So there were three years between your third child being born and trying mushrooms?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:50:00] Probably, yeah. Two. Two or three. Somewhere in there.

Samantha Shelley [00:50:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:03] Okay. Okay. So do you want to.

Anxiety, Depression, and the Search for Relief

Margi Dehlin [00:50:06] I have a question about anxiety and depression during those years and how it showed up, what it felt like for you during that time.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:50:15] It felt like a constant state of, like, I was never content. I'm like, my whole life seems to be going exactly how it's supposed to. I have an amazing community. I'm very close with all of my friends. I have a good marriage. I love my husband. Like, we were like best friends, you know, we have beautiful, healthy children. My career is wildly successful, way more than I ever anticipated.

John Dehlin [00:50:44] Can you talk about that really quick? Just like, it was just. So how did your career. How did you do a career and have a successful career while you're raising three young kids with anxiety and depression?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:50:54] Yeah, I know, right? Yeah, it was. So my career was a total fluke. Like, it just exploded. Exploded overnight without me ever intending. But because of that, we were able to. It opened up so many opportunities so I could work way less.

John Dehlin [00:51:11] When you say your career exploded, you're cutting hair at a local salon. How did you.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:51:15] Yeah, so I. I exploded on Pinterest and is what happened. You know how everyone goes to Pinterest for their hair in store, right?

Samantha Shelley [00:51:22] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:51:22] And in a matter of probably two months, I went from 6,000 followers to 5 million followers on Pinterest.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:31] Oh.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:51:31] And I did 6,000.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:32] I'm like, damn, that's me too. 5 million.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] 5 million.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:51:37] And I don't even know how it was. Like, I went. I went viral on Pinterest. It was the weirdest thing. I don't. I still don't even know how it happened.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:44] You must have been taking good photos.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:51:46] I was posting things on there.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:47] Yeah. And you must have been ahead of the curve.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:51:49] I must have been. It was like the right place, the right time.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:52] Because now hairdressers will sort of, you know, take before and afters. But you must have had enough quality in your photos.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:51:58] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:51:58] And, you know, impressive enough.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:52:00] Something.

Samantha Shelley [00:52:01] Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:52:02] And then there was this. This magazine that's pretty big in the hair world that like, found me, and they put me on the COVID of that. And then from there, it was just like all of a sudden and on there in that article, they were like the most famous hairdresser you've never heard of. So it was like I was somebody who was just kind of like social media famous. And then all of a sudden I went to, like, being a big wig in the hair world, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:52:27] Work in terms of, like, you're cutting in a salon, then all of a sudden you become viral and famous. How does that change the types of clients you get, the types of engagements, the types of opportunities? What is that? Like magazines calling you rock stars, like actresses? How does that happen?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:52:44] Yeah, yeah. It was very much like I had been doing. So I specialize in doing wedding hair. That's what I do. And so I was doing like six. Six weddings a week, you know, I mean, and here in Utah, people get married every five Minutes, you know, and so it's like I was never running out of business. But then from there, I was able to move into a space of educating. So I stopped taking as many weddings and I started educating other stylists on how to do wedding hair. And then from there, I was able to move into online educating, where I have, like, a subscription site and people pay to, you know, for videos and whatnot. And so it really, it. It helped me to transition so that I could work a lot less, but still, you know, help support financially.

Samantha Shelley [00:53:28] You have DVDs on Amazon and they call you the biggest star in social media. Updos. That is a hell of a Tagline.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:34] Wow.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:53:35] Those DVDs are probably very dated now.

Samantha Shelley [00:53:37] These photos are so. Did you do, like, these high fashion.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:40] Oh, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:53:41] So cool.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:53:41] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:42] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:53:43] So you would do wedding hair as. As your career exploded?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:53:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:48] And then just, like, would more and more people, like, prominent people be asking?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:53:53] It's. Yeah, it was. It was like I was getting a lot of requests for destination weddings, you know, like, come to Italy or come to Aruba or come to, you know, whatever to do.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] You do those? Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:03] Oh, yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:54:04] It was fantastic.

John Dehlin [00:54:05] Would you take your husband and kids?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:54:07] I would take my husband, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:08] So you'd get to take your husband on really fancy, swanky destination weddings. Doing hair for fancy people.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:54:15] Yeah. That was my life.

John Dehlin [00:54:17] This sounds amazing.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:54:18] And somehow I was depressed.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:20] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:54:21] But, okay, so.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:22] But it's really a different dream, probably when you're thinking, oh, I want to do hair, and, you know, like, you think of a salon. Like, you were talking about working at a salon. And when you have kids out of the basement to. I'm just thinking the largeness, the pressure, the, like, did it feel positive? Did it feel like a match for you? Or did it also feel like pressure? Like, was there also a dark side to it?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:54:50] I gotta be honest, I just totally loved it. I was just eating it up. I was like, this is fantastic.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:56] So this plays into my original question. Can we go back to that?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:54:59] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:00] Cause I was asking kind of, okay, during those years, what did anxiety and depression look like? What did it feel like? And you were just starting to say, like, my. Weren't you saying my external circumstances were perfect?

John Dehlin [00:55:12] You know, perfect marriage, perfect Mormon church faith, perfect. Like, not just a great career. I've never heard of a career like that.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:55:19] Yeah, it was.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:21] So go. And you're doing destination weddings to Aruba, Like.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:25] Without even trying, without even having that as the goal.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:55:28] That just sounds just like.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:29] Sure.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:55:30] I'll go there.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:30] But here's the thing. You do you feel like you're. You seem. Well, the way you described your Mormon upbringing was kind of. You sound like a perfectionist, but also like you were naturally drawn to being that way anyway. Do you think that. That perfectionism is what gave you those skills with hair? Because it does look like you really would have had to put in some learning time to get that highly skilled.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:55:53] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:54] So even though the career sort of, you know, you weren't trying to have that exact career, I'm like, you really must have put in some time to get that good.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:56:02] I feel like it was a combination of that. And also, weirdly, for some reason, I feel like it's something that I was, like, born with. Like, it immediately made sense to me. Like, I'd look at something and be like, I know how I would do that and I would change it like this. And this is how you do it, you know, so there was a lot of learning, but also it was just something that I was like, I don't know why this is in me, but it just is.

Samantha Shelley [00:56:23] Yeah, that makes sense because you said as soon as you saw at 13.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:56:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:56:28] I love this.

John Dehlin [00:56:29] Okay, so to Margi's question, you're living, like, every Utah Mormon girl's dream life. How could you be feeling anxiety and depression?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:56:38] Exactly. And that was my question.

John Dehlin [00:56:40] And how did it manifest?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:56:41] So it manifested as just this constant state of feeling, uncontent feeling. Like, no matter what was happening, I was not happy. And I would obviously be happy when I was traveling or when we were with our friends. But if it was like, I'm home alone, or, you know, just me and the kids or whatever, as soon as you come down from that high, it's like your real feelings are there, you know? And I saw this. I saw this quote just recently that was like, you can determine a man's level of. I think it was happiness or maybe inner peace by his ability to sit in stillness. And that's very much me. It's like, when I was just me, I was just all the emotions, you know, so much anxiety, just feeling like, why am I not happy?

Samantha Shelley [00:57:31] Did you find solace in. Because you obviously prayed and read scriptures, and that is a form of stillness, Even though it's like filling your head with specific concepts, did that give you any kind of comfort?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:57:40] That was, like, the only comfort I had. Absolutely. But it got to the point where it's like, I don't feel like me. And like, no matter how much I pray, I don't feel like it's gonna. It's doing anything, which, you know.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:53] And you also. You described it as high highs, low lows. Not like this constant depression. Was the high highs kind of in relation to your career? Because obviously, if you're in Aruba.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:58:02] Yeah, it was my career. And we really did have a really, really close group of friends that we were always doing stuff with. You know, a lot of people get married and they kind of, like, disappear off the face of the earth, but we were just, like, living the life, you know, we were always camping, we were always planning parties. We were always getting together, you know, so it was just like, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun all the time.

Samantha Shelley [00:58:24] That does sound fun.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:58:25] It was fun.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:26] And then you're motivated, I would bet, to keep. Kind of keep moving.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:58:29] Yeah, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:30] Because if your experience is. When I stop, I have all this flood of feelings that are really uncomfortable. Did you find that? So it was like, all the things we can.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:58:39] And I think a lot of people are like that. I think that they. They don't realize that they're like that. You keep yourself up, up, up, up, up. But then it's like, if that ever crumbles, you're just a complete mess. Underneath that, I feel like that's me.

Samantha Shelley [00:58:53] That is you, John. I am always telling you this.

John Dehlin [00:58:58] Like, I keep super busy because it's not good when I'm not exactly John.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:59:03] Sounds like you need psychedelics.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:05] Yeah. Because there's not to make this about you, but there's just. You'll feel so much more confident and powerful when you can sit in silence by yourself. Like, there's just a freedom that comes with that.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:59:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:18] And again, this isn't about me, but I can. Margi might remember the most painful hour of my life. Literally, of my life. Do you remember what it was, Margi? It's when we went to a Quaker service. So we were flirting with other churches, and we went to a Quaker service in Cache Valley, and this is their church service. You go and you sit for an hour in silence, and everybody's in a circle. There's no sermon. There's no music. You just sit for an hour in silence, and you're just kind of looking around and staring at people. And I swear, I think that was the most painful hour of my life anyway.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [00:59:52] Yeah. Because what happens when you do that? You're forced to be with yourself. My brain goes crazy, and you're like, I can't. What's in my body? Like, I can't be in here.

John Dehlin [01:00:01] And that's what was happening with you?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:00:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:00:03] Okay. All the time.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:00:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:04] And was there. Do you. Were you conscious of any dissatisfaction with being married or with having children during those years?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:00:15] Conscious of it is. It's like, kind of. But I thought it was my fault, you know, I'm like, oh, if I'm not enjoying being a mom, that's on me. I mean, not to say that it's on my children, but, like, I would never have pegged it on my lifestyle. I would have only pegged it on my inability to keep up, my inability to be loving enough or to be selfless enough or to give of myself more, you know, so it's like I kind of was conscious of it, but I didn't. I didn't think it was. I thought it was me.

Seeking Help Within and Outside the Church

John Dehlin [01:00:49] So did you go on a quest with your parents, with leaders or friends or elders that you respected or church leaders to say, what's wrong with me? Why am I not happy? Can you help me, please?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:01:03] Mostly just with my husband, you know, I would talk to him about it. Obviously he was very aware he would help a lot. When I was, you know, depressed or anxious, he would take the kids and let me rest and stuff like that. So he was really the only one. I didn't talk about it. I mean, I was very private. You wouldn't guess it by what I'm doing now, but I was a very private person, so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] Okay. So no one knew but your husband? Basically, yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:01:27] Not even my parents or anything? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:29] Oh, you didn't even tell your parents? Okay. So did your husband try and give you blessings that would be a normal thing a husband would do? Priesthood blessings.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:01:38] He was the one who introduced me to psychedelics, so that's.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:44] He.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:01:44] He was very supportive in wanting to help me feel better.

John Dehlin [01:01:50] Okay. But let's talk about rock bottom. Was there a rock bottom before the psychedelics did? So did he try and give you blessings? No, he didn't try.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:01:59] He wasn't. He wasn't that type of Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:02:01] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:02] So he was a slacker Mormon.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:04] He.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:02:04] I mean, I guess you could say technically, by Mormon standards, you would call him that. Yeah, probably.

John Dehlin [01:02:08] But he wasn't going to church every Sunday.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:02:10] He would. He would go to church every week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And do all, you know, all that stuff.

John Dehlin [01:02:15] But did you ever think that. Did you ever think that he's part of why you're unhappy, he's not righteous enough?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:02:21] Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:02:23] How did that not become a huge wedge in your marriage?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:02:26] Well, it kind of did, but There was so much else that was, like, making up for it, you know, it was like.

John Dehlin [01:02:31] What do you mean?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:02:32] Like, we were. We really were, like, best friends. So it's like, okay, maybe. Maybe he's not as spiritual as I, my Mormon self, would have hoped. Or religious, I guess, is a better way to say that. But, like, we're happy, you know, for the most part.

John Dehlin [01:02:51] Did you pray to Heavenly Father to take your depression and anxiety away?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:02:55] Yeah, I prayed, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:56] Oh, yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:02:57] For years, of course. Like, why am I not happy? You know, nothing. That obviously didn't work, you know, I mean, I thought I had come to come to the point where I was like, maybe this is just my lot in life, which is another sort of Mormon belief that God can kind of, like, will something on you for your own benefit. That's, you know, and you just have to kind of accept it. And so I had kind of, like, come to that space where it was just like, this is my lot in life, and, like, I'm just gonna be like this, I guess. But it got to the point too. Like, I wouldn't say that I was ever, like, fully suicidal, but I was like, okay. And this is the only reason I did mushrooms is I was like, if I'm gonna. I would rather try something like this than just accept that this is my fate, you know?

John Dehlin [01:03:44] So you. You were about to say you weren't suicidal. Well, what did rock bottom look like for you?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:03:50] It was very, like, just feeling like, this is no way to live. Like, I felt completely out of control of my internal state. You know, it's like, why can't I just relax? Why can't I just be happy? Why can't I just function like everyone else is functioning? Like, what is wrong with me? That's kind of. That's kind of what it was like. And, you know, it. Rock bottom just looked like. Just feeling like I couldn't function. I mean, I was still working, and I was still taking care of my kids, but it's behind closed doors. I was just a mess, you know?

John Dehlin [01:04:29] So one thing a Mormon might say to you at this point in your story is it's because you're working outside the home. A woman's place is in the home. You should be home with your kids. You shouldn't be working, and that's why you're anxious and depressed. Did that ever happen?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:04:43] No, because by that point, my job was so. It had been set up so well that I was barely working out of the home at all. I mean, I was. I was mostly Teaching classes and doing stuff online. And so people kind of like, you know, praised me for finding such a good way to be with my kids, but also still work, you know, it's just like, oh, wow, that works out so nicely. You know.

John Dehlin [01:05:06] So it was a. Your. Your successful career was requiring minimal time.

Samantha Shelley [01:05:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:13] Taking. Taking you minimally away from your duties of mom and wife.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:05:17] Yep. And my husband was also self employed, so anytime I was gone, they were with him. And so it was like one or the other. We never had babysitters or nannies or anything like that.

John Dehlin [01:05:26] Wow.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:05:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:26] Okay. And you. Did you ever. So you were on SSRIs for how long?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:05:32] Yeah, I was on Prozac for probably eight, seven or eight years.

John Dehlin [01:05:36] And that this still got worse and worse.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:05:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:40] Did you ever do talk therapy?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:05:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:05:43] Before the mushrooms.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:05:44] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [01:05:45] And that was it an audience therapist?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:05:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:05:48] Okay, go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [01:05:50] Sorry. I was just wondering if you, like, wrestled with the decision to get on SSRIs.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:05:55] No, actually, not at the time.

Samantha Shelley [01:05:58] Cool.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:05:58] I didn't have any issues with it. I think there was kind of a stigma. There kind of is. But I also knew enough people that were on them.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:07] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:06:08] That I was kind of like, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:11] So what didn't work about a therapist? What did they try? And what was your experience consulting a therapist for your anxiety and depression?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:06:19] Talk therapy is such a blanket term for what therapy can actually be. You know, it totally depends on your therapist. It depends on the type of therapy that they do. And a lot of it does depend on their own personal projections, you know, like stuff that they're. That they're bringing in from their own perceptions and projecting onto you, you know, so the one that I went to, she was super nice, but it was essentially, just let me sit here and talk to you about how I feel. And then she validates everything that you say. You know, it's just like. And a lot of times, you know, validation isn't what you need to actually heal, you know, and so it was like, sure, this is nice. But, like, if I want to talk to somebody about how I feel, I can go talk to my girlfriends or I can go, you know, talk to my husband or whatever.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:06] And it seems like a lot of the time therapy. Talk therapy happens at the level of the ego, which can be great, like, and helpful. But I. I feel like I have a sense of where you're maybe going to go based on your psychedelic experiences, and it's just. Just a different thing that you needed. It sounds like.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:21] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:07:21] Yeah. I mean, there's There is so much that can be helpful about talk therapy, but there's so much more that happens with anxiety and depression outside of what your brain's doing. There's so much going on. And so just talking about it was like, just keeping me in my head

Samantha Shelley [01:07:37] and even sort of just having the goal that therapy will take away your anxiety. I don't know.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:07:42] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:42] It's tough.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:07:43] Yeah, exactly. Like, even just the idea.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:45] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:07:46] That you can. That it's something that is wrong with you. Like, that was very much the perspective that I had. Like, something's wrong with my brain. And that perspective in and of itself is very unhelpful, you know.

John Dehlin [01:07:58] Well, anxiety and depression can be chemical imbalance in the brain.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:08:02] Yes. Yes. So my. I mean, I can only speak for myself. My experience was. I mean, you'll hear. You'll hear all about it, but my experience with anxiety and depression was very much not just related to my. To my brain by any means.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:15] And isn't research showing more and more that, you know, this idea that people with depression just, you know, don't produce enough serotonin, isn't that being proved to be a bit of a myth? Like the idea that it's just this chemical thing. You're born with it. I feel like that was like the dominant narrative with anxiety and depression until, like, quite recently.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:08:32] Yeah. And now they're kind of saying, like, there's no. Yeah. That. That's a myth. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:37] With the human brain, there's always going to be so many factors totally. To reduce it to one thing. It's just never going to work.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:08:42] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:08:42] Okay, so your therapist tried mostly empathetic listening and validation.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:08:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:49] And that just wasn't having any major.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:52] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:08:53] I'm like, thank you. I feel the same.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:56] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:56] Sorry if I'm. I don't know if I'm rehashing anything here, but did your anxiety and depression, you describe it as just like sort of not being content and feeling that you sort of should be. But were there specific stories it would tie itself to? Like, specific things you obsessively were anxious about?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:09:14] Um, specific things I was anxious about. Not necessarily, but it was. There was the story of if you don't feel good, something is wrong. If you don't feel happy or content or at peace, something about you or something about your life is wrong.

John Dehlin [01:09:35] And when you say wrong, do you mean sin?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:09:38] I guess I. Unrighteousness. I don't know. I didn't. I don't know that I necessarily felt like I was sinning. But I felt like there's this narrative of, like, if you're doing what's right, you will be happy, you know? And I'm like, this isn't.

John Dehlin [01:09:52] It's not adding up, that happiness in Mormonism, that happiness is righteousness.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:56] Exactly. Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:09:57] Happiness is like, you're on the right path. You're doing what God wants, and if you follow all that, you will be happy. And it's like, there's this idea that things might happen, you know, maybe you'll get, like, a terminal illness or maybe you'll get in a car wreck, but internally, if you're following the gospel, you will feel good. Internally, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:18] We're taught it's called the Great Plan of Happiness.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:10:20] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:10:20] Right.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:10:21] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:10:21] I mean, that's another name for the plan of salvation within Mormonism, the Great Plan of Happiness.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:10:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:27] So if you're not happy, you're doing it wrong.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:10:28] Exactly. And I was like, I am definitely not doing it wrong. You can tell from my story I'm not doing it wrong. So why am I not happy?

Margi Dehlin [01:10:37] This is so interesting, because it reminds me of what you were saying before Samantha, this idea of having perceptually, even if it's age of perception, a positive. A really positive experience for years and years and years where, you know, on some. I feel like in some way, you're feeling like your emotions are. You're experiencing them in a rather simplistic way. But also, it's one thing you're. You're having kind of a consistent experience. And it sounds like you hit a place in your life where that is no longer the case, where all of a sudden, you know, you're doing the same things, you're following the same formula, and now your emotions are not following in line. You're not happy, you're not peaceful. Whereas in contrast, someone who has a. A really difficult childhood that hits you really early, you know. Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [01:11:33] Well, and also, if you had sort of healthy attachment as a kid, then you're. You're held in the things that are uncontrollable. There's still that safe container, and you really thrived with, like, you know exactly what to do, and it will produce these results. But then real life isn't like that. You have twins.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:11:50] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:51] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:11:51] You know, it's like you weren't really prepped for sort of the. The wildness of life and of being, like an adult woman.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:12:00] Exactly. And I feel like most people who can stay in Mormonism and make it work, it's like, because at least for me, I shouldn't say most people, I should say. For me, I got to a point where I didn't realize how much control, sort of like perceived control I had until it started to dissolve. And then I was like, wait, I don't actually have control at all. Like, why isn't this working? You know, I'm doing the same things and I'm not getting the same results. Like, what's happening?

Samantha Shelley [01:12:30] And Mormonism isn't a type of spirituality that encourages you to make peace with the lack of control and find freedom and surrender. So it's like you had almost the complete opposite type of spirituality of religion that would be helpful.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:12:42] Exactly. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:12:46] Okay, so you tried talk therapy, you tried SSRIs. Is there anything else you tried before mush? You tried talking to your husband, you tried prayer with Heavenly Father. You were hyper righteous from the start. Is there anything else you tried before mushrooms?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:13:03] That was basically all I knew. I mean there's, there's so many things I just listed. Yeah, okay. There's so many more tools for anxiety and depression out there, but those were the only ones that I knew even existed.

John Dehlin [01:13:14] Okay. So there is this really unuseful perspective that I grew up with that I still find very pervasive, that there's like a scale of like harm. There's, there's like a scale of harmful drugs. There's kind of less harmful drugs, perception of less harmful drugs and more harmful drugs. And because alcohol is legal amongst like a lot of Mormons who haven't ever thought about anything outside the word of wisdom, they're thinking, well, if you're going to self medicate, start with the safe stuff like alcohol. And then, yeah, mushrooms, that's like super dangerous, crazy, weird psychedelic stuff. And you know that that's, that's problematic. And we're going to talk about it. It's deeply problematic. But before you. But, but then they would probably say, well, certainly alcohol is super dangerous, but I'm sorry, super alcohol is bad, but you know, try that and then maybe marijuana. But then mushrooms are way awful. So did you try alcohol in any way to self medicate before mushrooms?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:14:31] Heavens no.

John Dehlin [01:14:33] No, never. So you tried, you, you never tried alcohol?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:14:37] I had never had alcohol or weed.

Samantha Shelley [01:14:40] Okay, this was this. How many years ago was this?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:14:43] This was, let's see, two years ago

Samantha Shelley [01:14:45] was when you tried mushrooms. Yeah. Okay, so it's already, I feel like by that point a lot of at least younger Mormons, it is coming into the mainstream that mushrooms are. I think most Mormons would have a more favorable view of mushrooms and Alcohol.

John Dehlin [01:14:57] We're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about that. But I just got in a debate a believing Mormon when I was kind of talking about psilocybin and mushrooms this week. Literally the believe in Mormon's like, how dare someone go to mushrooms when alcohol is a much more safe and viable option. You know what I mean? So I do think it's an important point to bring.

Samantha Shelley [01:15:15] That's a pervasive view. Oh yeah, I've never heard that. I can't imagine a Mormon saying, why wouldn't you try alcohol before?

John Dehlin [01:15:22] Do you want me show you my text?

Samantha Shelley [01:15:23] I can understand the legality being. No, I believe you.

John Dehlin [01:15:25] There's a perf. I think there's a perception because alcohol is legal.

Samantha Shelley [01:15:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:29] That it must be safer than things like LSD or at least you're not breaking the law.

Samantha Shelley [01:15:32] And that in a. Of itself is, I think, I think

Margi Dehlin [01:15:35] that exists often with opioids too.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:15:38] Like this.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:38] There's like a, I mean there's a current campaign that's clearly. But like initially there were feelings about that. Like if it's, if it's sort of given to you in this way by some type of, you know, that that does affect people psychologically a little bit to feel like, well they gave it to me so it must be okay. Yeah, it's approved of or it's in this case, you know, spoiler alert.

John Dehlin [01:16:04] Alcohol is probably one of the most dangerous drugs you could take. And so I just wanted to make sure we say that. And so are opioids. Like if we're talking like really super dangerous drugs, it's like meth. Well, it's probably. What's the stuff that's like synthetic opioids, fentanyl, fentanyl, super dangerous meth, heroin, opioids, you know, stay away from all that stuff. But alcohol is usually in those categories of dangerous. Am I, am I wrong?

Samantha Shelley [01:16:41] Well, not the category you just said. I think the thing with alcohol is big. Yeah. It's obviously bump it up against a lot of damage. But alcohol is kind of a weird one because it's like, I mean, yes, there's, there's no amount of alcohol consumption that is considered like fully safe, obviously. But it's, it's a tough one because it's like people who become alcoholics will drink a lot of it and you know, like it is. What I'm trying to say is that it is possible for people to have a decently healthy, like have alcohol be a small part of their life and you know in with a balanced life everywhere else. It doesn't have to be, you know, whereas you wouldn't just do a little bit of fentanyl with dinner, you know. Yeah, like, that's like a whole different ball game.

John Dehlin [01:17:21] I'm not saying that there are not people in the world who have healthy relationships with alcohol. What I am saying is a lot of damage. I went and looked 10 different graphs on most dangerous drugs and alcohol is always bumping up against. But I think cocaine, meth, heroin, opioids, fentanyl, it's always like right there grouped at the top with those other drugs. Now, it's not as dangerous, probably as those other drugs, but I'm telling you, every list I looked at, it was grouped as right under it.

Samantha Shelley [01:17:52] But it's because those. Yes. And I'm not. I'm not like being an alcohol apologist here, even though I do drink alcohol. But it's because they. I think they usually do that data based on, like, how many deaths each substance causes. And obviously, because alcohol is legal and easily accessible, it's going to be one that people are going to go to also because it's, like, accepted in mainstream society. And a lot of people, you know, obviously alcoholics aren't able to have a good relationship with it, but they have to live among people who consume it. It's just. It's tough. Whereas you're not. If you're a heroin addict, you don't have to be around people who. I mean, you don't have to be around people who drink alcohol either, but it's just so pervasive. Okay, sorry if I over. If I didn't say all that.

John Dehlin [01:18:31] Okay, so alcohol was not on the table for you and marijuana was not either. Why, why was marijuana not something you considered to. To try to medicate your depression and anxiety by this point? Was cannabis legal in Utah for medical? Cannabis legal in Utah?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:18:49] I think medical. Yeah. Two years ago, I think so.

John Dehlin [01:18:52] I'm just curious, like, straight to mushrooms. Like, what kept you from considering medical marijuana for anxiety and depression first?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:18:59] Yeah, because for me, in my Mormon brain at the time, marijuana and alcohol were coping mechanisms, whereas mushrooms was something that I had learned could potentially heal things. You know, it's like, all about, you know, rewiring your neural pathways rather than just like, what can I do to help with my symptoms? So it was like, I don't want to cope. I want to. I want to fix my brain. This is what I was telling myself at the time.

Samantha Shelley [01:19:29] How did you get introduced to all that? Because your husband Was a believing Mormon at the time.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:19:35] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:19:36] How did you two.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:19:37] Yeah, he just is very into podcasts. Very into. He was always just, like, learning a lot about different things. And so he'd heard people talk about it. He's like, hey, you should listen to this podcast of, you know, so and so, talking about their experience with mushrooms.

Samantha Shelley [01:19:52] Do you remember what the podcast was?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:19:53] I feel like it was like, Joe Rogan or something. Yeah, probably. But then there was, like, you know, that document or. Yeah. Documentary called Fantastic Fungi. Yeah, Fantastic Fungi. Yeah. And just things like that where it was like we were watching them together and he was showing them to me and kind of like, maybe this would be an option kind of a thing.

Samantha Shelley [01:20:11] Cool.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:20:13] And they were presented in, like, a medicinal way, which they are. I feel like they are medicinal. And so it wasn't like this, okay, I just need alcohol to make me feel better or, you know, my view of marijuana at the time was the same, like, oh, it's just gonna. All it's gonna do is just like, help. Help me feel better temporarily. Whereas mushrooms, it was like this medicinal sort of substance that had only become illegal because of the war on drugs, but it actually wasn't in the same category as the other illegal drugs.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:43] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:20:44] So you knew about the war on Drugs and all that. Okay, cool.

John Dehlin [01:20:47] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:20:47] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:20:47] So it's like, okay, this comes from the earth. It's not addictive, and it's literally healing, helping people heal from PTSD and all of these, like, severe. Severe sort of psychological ailments. And so for me, it was, like, a beautiful thing, even though it took me probably a solid year to convince myself to do it, but it was like, by the time I convinced myself, I didn't feel bad about it.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:17] Yeah, I can totally see your line of reasoning. Yep.

How a Faithful Mormon Mom Came to Try Psilocybin

John Dehlin [01:21:21] Because that's my question is how does a totally faithful, orthodox believing Mormon woman. Mom. Who's never tried a sip of alcohol, never taken a puff of cannabis, go to, you know, not just be, like, not. Not even be angry at your husband for even recommending it, but then considering actually trying it.

Samantha Shelley [01:21:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:48] Was that a journey for you?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:21:49] It was.

John Dehlin [01:21:50] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:21:50] Yeah. It took, like, a whole year.

Samantha Shelley [01:21:52] But it seems like you are. You've always been an intelligent person who takes in information.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:21:59] I mean, I guess that's debatable.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:05] You were hearing intelligent arguments for it. And I feel like, well, this is just my own perception, I guess, but I feel like the younger generation of Mormons are a bit. Are more open. You know, things like, I have a Mormon friend who's done ketamine therapy. And I think, like, that super, like, never a single drug don't even, like, entertain the idea that they can be healing. I feel like that is becoming more and more dated and less mainstream.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:22:29] Yeah. And psilocybin's being legalized, and so it's like people aren't even really viewing it as a drug anymore.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:37] And Mormons have been having to confront the ways that the opioid crisis has touched them because they did put their trust in these legal substances. There is quite a lot of distrust of big pharma in the Mormon community.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:22:50] I know a lot Mormons to Doterra. I've known. I know a ton of Mormons who have done mushrooms.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:55] A ton.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:56] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:22:56] Like active. Still active Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:22:58] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:58] Joseph Smith may addenum. I've.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:23:00] I believe it.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:02] Okay, so you spent a year. Did you read Michael Pollan's book how to change your mind?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:23:07] Did it come out? I think it might have come out after that.

John Dehlin [01:23:09] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:10] Or.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:23:10] I didn't know about it until after that.

John Dehlin [01:23:11] But you saw the movie.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:13] Fantastic.

John Dehlin [01:23:13] Fantastic.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:23:14] Fun guy. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:23:16] You listen to podcasts? Had the Mormons on mushrooms podcast come out yet?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:23:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:23:20] Before.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:23:21] Yes. But I was like, oh, maybe this would be interesting, but it's like a. It's like an ex Mormon podcast. So as a. As an active Mormon, I was like, oh, I'm not going to listen to that, because, you know. Of course, you know.

John Dehlin [01:23:33] And in that year leading up, had you heard about problems with church history, like challenges to the church's truth claims? Was. Did any of that play a role?

Samantha Shelley [01:23:43] Did anything bother you about the church? Like, any social issues or church?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:23:49] This is why I feel like. I feel like I. Oh, yeah, and my brother's gay, so it's like, you would think that that would have, like, gotten me out of the church.

Samantha Shelley [01:23:56] Did you feel like he was sinning by acting on being gay?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:23:59] I mean, it's one of those things at the time where I didn't feel like it was a sin. I didn't think that he was like, I didn't have those beliefs where I was like, oh, he's doing something wrong, or, oh, he's just, you know, this is a choice that he made or something like that. I didn't understand it, but I was very much. I could compartmentalize. You know, I was just like, I don't know what this is, but God knows, so I'm just gonna leave it in God's hands, you know? And I feel like, you know, for me, this is why I can relate so much to why people don't leave the church. Because there was no cognitive dissonance for me because everything that was coming in that would be. Make me uncomfortable or maybe make me question was amazing. Immediately doing one of these being put in a place in my mind where it was like, this is unsafe information. You know, this is either coming from the adversary or this is coming from people who don't know what I know. And so there was no cognitive dissonance. It was just like, these people don't know, you know, they don't know what we know in the church. And so I don't. If it's making me uncomfortable, it's because that's a sign that I should stay away from it because that's the adversary or it's anti Mormon doctrine or whatever. So, yeah, none of that.

John Dehlin [01:25:16] So did you consider asking your dad or your bishop or, you know, getting Mormon approval somehow?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:25:24] I think I might have, actually. Now that you mentioned this, I feel like. Well, my parents knew about it, so my. I was. Yeah, I was the last one of my siblings to leave the church. And so all of my siblings had left maybe 10 years earlier. Oh yeah. And I was the one who was still Mormon. And so when I and my brother actually had already done mushrooms, so he. He was kind of already in that world. And so for me to come to my parents and be like, hey, like, I think I want to try this. Like, they were like, okay, you know, and they watched Fantastic Fungi and, you know, so they were very much like, kind of like intrigued by the science of it, you know, and like the psychology aspect of it and stuff like that. And so it wasn't really a big issue for them.

John Dehlin [01:26:11] So your parents were semi affirming to your decision?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:26:14] Yeah, they. They're very like, I think they've probably had enough experience with their other kids by that point to just be like, we just want our kids to be happy. Whatever they're gonna do, you know, that's gonna bring them to that place is what we want for them, which is very atypical. I feel like here in Utah, you know, a lot of people get shunned and disowned and all of that, but it's just kind of one of those things where they're like, we. They probably just learn from experience. Like, we're. No matter what we say, our kids aren't going to listen to us, so we might as well just make them feel safe to be who they are kind of a thing.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:47] Was it hard for you that all your other siblings are out the church.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:26:50] Is it hard now or was it.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:51] Was it hard?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:26:52] I feel like it was. It wasn't super hard on our relationships because we were all pretty good at having boundaries, you know.

Samantha Shelley [01:27:00] Did you worry that they weren't gonna be with you in the next life or.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:27:03] No. And you know what's so interesting is I don't know that my parents necessarily hold that belief either. Like, maybe they do, I don't know. But I feel like they're very much like they believe that God is a loving God and that they're trying to be good people. And so it's all gonna work out in the next life, I feel like is kind of the perspective that they

Samantha Shelley [01:27:20] hold, you know, it's quite high up there on how healthy a Mormon beliefs can be.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:27:25] Yeah, exactly. Which is. Which is like why I had never. I never question. I just never questioned anything, you know.

John Dehlin [01:27:32] Seems like for having faithful, devout parents, your parents are like more open minded. 9th percentile of cool.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:27:39] They are very cool. You would like my parents. They're very cool.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:42] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:44] Okay. So you spent a year, your parents kind of got on board. Your husband was encouraging. You didn't talk to the bishop, didn't ask the bishop permission. Did you ask Heavenly Father how he felt about you trying mushrooms?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:27:59] It was one of those things where I was just like. I remember praying, like literally on the way there, I was like, if I'm doing something wrong, I am sorry. I am just trying to help myself. And I didn't feel bad about. Felt like it was resonating with me, you know, I really loved the fact that it was something natural, something that came from the earth. So it was like, okay, you know, this isn't some sort of. It just felt safer to me, I guess. And then I loved. I was really on board with the fact that they were helping people heal from like they were medicinal, you know, So I didn't feel bad about it. So I prayed and I was like, I'm sorry if I'm doing something wrong, but I don't feel. I don't feel like this is a bad thing. And that was pretty much it.

John Dehlin [01:28:46] Do you want to share whether or not your husband, your ex husband, had tried mushrooms before you? He hadn't, he had not.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:28:53] No, he just hadn't.

John Dehlin [01:28:54] So he was encouraging you to try mushrooms when he had not tried them yet?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:28:57] Just based on everything that we were reading and learning and hearing.

John Dehlin [01:29:01] Wow.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:29:01] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:02] Fantastic. Fungi is very compelling.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:29:04] It is very compelling.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:05] I did. I thought it was it doesn't seem

Samantha Shelley [01:29:07] that crazy when you're hearing from, you know, therapists and scientists and experts. You know, it's not like this wild card thing to be encouraging, even though you haven't tried them.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:29:17] It might. Yeah, it might have been maybe 10 years ago, but now I feel like it's much more accessible and people understand.

Samantha Shelley [01:29:23] Because you were coming at it from such a sort of mature, sensible way.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:29:28] Yeah, it was like, this is medicinal. It's not like I'm doing, you know, a party drug or something like that.

Preparing for a Guided Mushroom Experience

Samantha Shelley [01:29:34] So how did you decide the way that you were going to do mushrooms? Because you did a big guided trip. Right.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:29:40] And I knew that that's what I

Samantha Shelley [01:29:41] do right off the bat.

John Dehlin [01:29:43] Like, there's lots of questions. It's like, how much to take, where to get it.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:29:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:47] Set and setting, who to have around, where to do it. Talk us through that whole decision.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:29:53] Yeah. So, I mean, I had no idea what I was doing. I've learned a lot now, but I literally had no idea what I was doing. I was like, googling, like, mushroom guides in Utah and I found this woman, you know, and we, like, texted a few times and then that was it. That was literally it. Which looking back, I'm like, that there is so much that goes into what type of psychedelic experience you have, you know, But I was just going into it blind, totally blind. So I just.

John Dehlin [01:30:23] So you went with her?

Margi Dehlin [01:30:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:25] Okay, so you found someone on the Internet, you texted them and you said, let's do it.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:30:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:29] So how was it set up? Tell us all the details.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:30:32] I got there and she was very, like, not what I was expecting at all. And at the time especially, it was like she had like crystals everywhere and she had. She was like a tarot card reader and she was like, saging me, you know, all this stuff. And especially for, like, a true believing Mormon, I was like, what have I gotten into?

Samantha Shelley [01:30:52] The aesthetics alone are going to start messing with your psyche and how you're experiencing it all.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:30:56] Yeah, but she was.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:00] She.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:31:01] She ended up being good, you know, I mean, it wasn't a bad experience. The mushroom trip itself was not a bad experience.

John Dehlin [01:31:08] How many grams did you take for your first.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:31:11] My first time was only one gram.

John Dehlin [01:31:13] One gram.

Samantha Shelley [01:31:14] Oh, okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:31:14] Because I think she could tell. She just had. I don't know, she was just like, you don't need very much. And so it was only one, but that was enough.

John Dehlin [01:31:24] And what was the sentence setting like?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:31:26] It was just at her house, you know, we were. We were in her living room. And then we were out in her yard and I was still very much present because it was only one grammar. And so it was like I was. It wasn't super, super insane, you know, it was just kind of like, oh, this is weird. Like, I'm kind of seeing things and I kind of feel weird. But I wasn't like blasted to the moon or anything like that.

The First Psychedelic Trip and Its Immediate Effects

Samantha Shelley [01:31:48] What were sort of your first experiences of being high? If you can call it being high. But what were sort of like the things that surprised you about how it made you feel or. Or see things or.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:32:01] I remember. You know what's interesting is I. The biggest differences I noticed after I was done, it wasn't like necessarily when I was on it. Like, when I was on it, I was seeing the shapes. And I remember looking in the mirror. They tell you not to look in the mirror, but I was like, looking in the mirror and I looked like a lizard. And I was like, this is strange.

John Dehlin [01:32:23] With one gram.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:32:23] Yeah, with one gram.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:24] I feel like, to explain it to you, John. It's not like you look in the mirror and you literally are seeing a lizard.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:30] It's.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:31] It's just kind of like the power of suggestion. So you might, like, look at a tree. Tell me if I'm wrong. But you might, like, look at a tree and people would describe like, the tree is breathing. But it's not like you're hallucinating. It just your. Your mind is just sort of more open. And I think you probably are like, seeing the way the tree actually moves more normally. It's just that your brain in regular life has to make things more static and sort of like filter more things out.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:32:54] It definitely opens you up more.

Samantha Shelley [01:32:56] Yeah, but it's not like, oh, shit, I'm a lizard. It's not like. Yeah, I mean, people imagine. I know mushrooms can make you hallucinate, but.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:33:03] Yeah, when you said that that's what I would have you pictured me looking like.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:06] It was actually. And then I'm like, oh, my gosh, was that terrifying? Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:33:11] You know, I like. What I will say about psychedelics is I feel like the range of what can happen is massive. You know, it can be anywhere from. You're not really seeing or feeling a whole lot. And it's just kind of like you're feeling connected with nature to. You are full on hallucinating and you're not in your body and you don't know where you are and you don't know what's going on. Like, there's just a giant spectrum.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:32] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:33:33] Realistically dose dependent, though. Not always.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:33:35] Yeah, dose dependent. And then, like, it just depends on where you're at psychologically at the time. It depends on your setting, you know, who you're with. There's just so much that plays into it.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:44] So did you have particular insights that came out of that, that experience? Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:33:50] Like, the Mormon Church is not what I thought the first one.

John Dehlin [01:33:54] So before we jump to that, is there anything about the experience itself you want to describe? So you're having light hallucinations, you're feeling like. Anything else you want to describe about the actual trip?

Samantha Shelley [01:34:06] I was realizing things during the trip. Like, big or small?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:34:09] No. But, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:10] Good.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:34:11] If I were to compare it to my second trip, the first trip was very much just like, I'm talking to the guide. Feeling good, Feeling safe. Feeling safe. Yeah. It was just a good experience. Interesting. Nothing too crazy.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:28] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:28] And then processing it afterwards, you said was when.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:34:31] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:32] The insights came.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:34:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:34:33] Was it just you and the guide?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:34:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:34:36] Was your husband there?

Samantha Shelley [01:34:39] He may or may not have been there.

John Dehlin [01:34:40] Oh, okay. Okay. Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:34:41] I don't know if that's the thing

Samantha Shelley [01:34:42] I want to say.

John Dehlin [01:34:43] Yes. Yeah. No comment.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:44] All the. Yes, always.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:34:47] Yeah. Yeah, no comment. Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:48] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:34:48] So the guide was there. And one of the things that I'm really sensitive to is when I hear about guides that are suggestive or active in the processing and the experiencing to the point of. I've even heard about, in really horrible cases, memories being planted by guides or. I've also had several people write in about abuse, people being abused by their guide while they're under the influence.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:35:18] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:35:19] So how. What was your interaction with your guide during your first trip?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:35:24] So it was good for me. For me, it was. It was, it was. She wasn't super suggestive. We were just like. I can't remember what we were talking about, but what you're describing, I have experienced because, you know, obviously after doing mushrooms the first time, I've done other plant medicines and mushrooms again multiple times. And so I feel like I've experienced a lot of that. And I feel like, yeah, who your guide is can make a huge, huge difference.

Samantha Shelley [01:35:50] And I feel like the fact that you started with 1 gram, it's pretty unlikely you're going to be that susceptible. I mean, unless you're a very vulnerable person. One gram, you're going to be able to keep your composure. You're going to be aware enough.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:36:00] Exactly.

Samantha Shelley [01:36:01] You're not going to be as vulnerable.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:02] Yeah, that's a good point. Were you on your ssri still?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:36:05] No. So you had gone off. Yeah, I got off a month before that.

John Dehlin [01:36:09] And that's what they recommend, right? Not that you quit cold turkey. Did you taper off?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:36:14] Yeah, I tapered off, yeah. And I've heard of people that do mushrooms while they're on their SSRIs, so I. I think it just depends. But I was given the advice that you're. You should taper off of them, and so I did. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:25] Yeah. Margi, you're. You're. You're alluding to what we read, which is that SSRIs will blunt or mute potentially, the impact of your experience. Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [01:36:35] Yeah, I thought it could do either. I thought there was just. It. It interacts with it.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:36:39] Well, I think you have serotonin syndrome, which is where your brain gets flooded with too much serotonin, which can be really dangerous. Plus, I'm sure there's other things that can happen that I don't know about. If you mix psychedelics and medications.

Samantha Shelley [01:36:53] Well, I think normally the SSRIs, you just won't feel the mushrooms. They won't be able to. That's what I've heard.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:36:59] Or. Blessings.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:01] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:01] With lsdu.

John Dehlin [01:37:02] So you chose to taper off your SSRIS before your experience. Okay. Okay. So you have the experience. A minimally invasive guide, some hallucinations. Anything else you want to describe about the beauty or the terror of your first experience?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:37:20] No.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:20] You?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:37:21] I definitely felt good. I felt a lot of love. I felt safe. I felt very clear. Very clear. I remember feeling very in tune, very attuned. You know, just like all of a sudden you're in your center and you're like, oh, like, this is what feels. This feels like me. This feels like who I actually am. This feels like there's no noise.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:51] You know, that seems like a perfect first trip experience. Just dosage wise, setting wise. It seems like it was.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:37:58] It was, yeah. I just got a lot more than I bargained for after the fact.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:03] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:03] So excited to hear.

John Dehlin [01:38:05] So processing, then. So did you do processing after your experience was over with the guide or not?

Revelations About Self, Marriage, and Leaving the Church

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:38:12] Well, I mean, I don't know how everybody is with mushrooms because I. Everybody's so different. But my experience was that I was literally never the same ever again after

John Dehlin [01:38:24] that first time with one gram. How were you? How are you different?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:38:28] It's almost like. I mean, one way I would describe it is that if done properly in the right setting, in the right container, they can allow you to take a step back from yourself and see your own conditioning and also the conditioning of your environment. And so it was like, all of a sudden I had this different lens for myself. And for. I would say it's almost like my sense of discernment was greatly heightened, where all of a sudden I was like, I could feel when something felt off. I could feel when. When something wasn't adding up. And whereas before, I was so disconnected from all of that because I was told. I mean, that's how I was raised. Right. So before, it didn't. I couldn't even feel. I was just so disconnected from my body in that way. And then all of a sudden, I was able to look at myself and look at my surroundings and be like, wait, this isn't adding up. Like, what. Not just logically or cognitively, like, these facts don't add up, but, like, how it's making me feel is not adding up. You know, they're telling me that this is love, but I can feel that it's not.

John Dehlin [01:39:43] You know, who was telling you the. What was the church? Okay, so you. Immediately after your first psychedelic trip, you're tapped into your own feelings, your own center, and you're starting to feel things about the Mormon Church.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:39:57] Yep. I remember it was General Conference, and I was, like, listening, and President Nelson said. He was, like, saying all these beautiful things that were like, the church is progress, progressive, or the church is evolving, is what he said. And we're always open to new ideas. You know, how they throw in these things, you know, and we're always going to be changing, and the Lord's church is continually unfolding and all this stuff. And then the very next sentence was like, if you want to be with your family forever, or no, no, it was simply wishing to be with your family forever will not be enough. So it was the. It was like I could see clear as day the separation between what they were feeding people versus what they were actually saying. Saying.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:46] Were you watching him give this talk?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:40:48] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:49] You'd come down from your trip or.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:40:50] Yeah, it was maybe like. It was shortly after that. Yeah. And it was so. It was like the second I came out of my. And at that point when I was listening to General Conference, it had been maybe like a month or two. And so I had already been, like, examining everything in the church and being like, wait, like, this is not making sense. And then listening to General Conference, it was like, blaringly obvious. It's like, oh, my gosh, like, they're manipulating everyone. And I couldn't see it before because everything is masked as love. And then all of a sudden, I could feel the disconnect.

Samantha Shelley [01:41:23] And once you. If you've never been taught to, like, establish that really grounded connection with yourself, I feel like once you just even have a glimpse of it, you can't undo that. You can't really go back the same way we talk about how once you, you know, realize that Santa isn't real or the church isn't, you can't, like, unsee it. Yeah, it just shifts everything.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:41:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:43] It's almost like eating the opposite of the tree in Lehi's dream. Because the.

Samantha Shelley [01:41:49] Every ex woman, the first time they try mushrooms says this.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:41:53] Yeah, well, what.

John Dehlin [01:41:54] So I'm just, you know, I'm just going with you guys. But, like, when you hear about Lehi's dream, there's the tree with the fruit, and you partake of the fruit and you feel, according to the Lehigh's dream, the love of God. And then you're never the same again. And then you want to share the love of God with everyone. I'm hearing that you partook of the mushrooms, and that immediately led you to interpret the Mormon Church's relationship with its members as not being about the love of God.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:42:31] Absolutely. It was like I felt in mushrooms, pure love, if. If you want to. I mean, I feel like people misuse the word love even, but it was just like pure. It felt like pure truth. And not even the truth that was being told to me, but like, I could feel it in my body. It was just this centeredness of like, oh, this is reality. Like, this is what's true and real and this is what's not. And so when I, Yeah, like, immediately I was looking at the church and I'm like, they're saying all this stuff in love, supposedly out of love, and it's not at all. And so that's exactly what it was where I was like, this is love. Like, this is love, not what the church is doing. It was very eye opening, to say the least.

John Dehlin [01:43:15] So mushrooms gave you a baseline of self awareness and knowledge and of love that then you could compare to what the church was doing, what the church was teaching.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:43:26] And I. And I feel like I like to interchange the word love with non violence, because I could see how I feel like pure love is non violence. And I could see how the church was doing things that were inherently violent. You know, like the using shame and fear to basically get people to obey. I'm like, that is. That is violence. You know, that's like a violation of autonomy and that's control. That's not. That's not love. That's not freedom. That's. That's not what they're telling you that it is.

John Dehlin [01:44:02] Mm.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:03] I'm also hearing a connection to self, but even more to body.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:44:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:09] As well.

John Dehlin [01:44:09] What do you mean by that?

Margi Dehlin [01:44:10] Which. That feels really notable. Yes.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:44:12] What do you mean, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [01:44:13] Well, that I hear you making references to, like, how it felt and knowing what it felt like and, you know, this sense of groundedness or feeling more expansive and connecting back to feelings now that you're having that. Just feel like it's much more. There's a connection there that I'm hearing that. And this makes so much sense actually, when you think of PTSD or some of the things that really, it's. Mushrooms are really particularly beneficial for bringing back to body.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:44:48] Is that true?

Margi Dehlin [01:44:49] Is that really what I'm hearing, or what would you say?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:44:51] Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's. It's tricky with Mormonism because at least for me, I was having a mixture of connection to myself, but it was. It was like in the church, you're kind of. At least for me, I was having real. A real connection to myself, but it was being like, sold back to me. So, like they. They essentially tell you what you're feeling. I mean, that's how they get you. That's how they get you. They're like, hey, if you're feeling that while you read the scriptures, that's because the church is true. If you're feeling that while you're at church, that's because it's true. Right. And then everything else just comes with it. You know, it's not like I wasn't having this connection to self. It's that they were telling me it was theirs and then selling it back to me, like taking monopoly on it. And so it was like all of a sudden, after mushrooms, I could see, wait, like, that connection that I'm feeling does not. Not only does it not come from them, but it doesn't. It's not dependent on my behavior. It's not dependent on my belief system. It's not dependent. And no one has access to it more than I do, you know, and so it was like it took out the middleman. And all of a sudden I could see the middleman was actually the bad guy, you know, and that they. They weren't actually giving me anything that I didn't already have access to. All they were doing was telling me that I needed them for it.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:09] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [01:46:10] And adding concepts on top of that.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:46:12] And adding concepts. Yep.

Samantha Shelley [01:46:14] It's like in Mormonism, you have like a conceptual Sense of self. But it's. Yeah. I'm glad we're talking about the body piece because I feel like our sense of self or just a lot of people's in the world. It's like you think of. It's so mind based. Like the body is just like this thing that you make do your bidding and it's just, you know, maybe it's there for decoration or for functional for whatever, but it's like we really don't have like a holistic.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:46:36] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:46:36] View.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:46:36] And I. I didn't even know what that felt like.

Samantha Shelley [01:46:38] Me neither.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:46:39] Like. Yeah. Talking about how, like, oh, you need to get back in your body. I'd be like, yeah, like I am in my body. Like, what does that even mean?

Samantha Shelley [01:46:44] That almost felt like twee to me. Like that wasn't the real thing. Like I needed like the. The grand philosophical. But yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:50] What did you just say? Twee.

Samantha Shelley [01:46:52] Twee.

John Dehlin [01:46:53] What is twee?

Samantha Shelley [01:46:53] I don't know. Just sort of like cute and it's sort of insignificant or just almost like a bit saccharine or it didn't like hearing messages about connecting to your body or it just didn't likely not credible. Psychedelics.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:08] Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:47:09] It didn't resonate in any way that felt useful to me.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:47:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:12] Got it.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:47:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:14] Wow. Okay, so. So you're going to general conference now. Is still a faithful Mormon wife and mom, and all of a sudden everything that the general authorities are saying go.

Samantha Shelley [01:47:24] Were you in the room or were you just watching it?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:47:25] I was just watching it on tv.

John Dehlin [01:47:26] But. But you start processing what they say as being the opposite of love, as being guilt and shame and fear based. So what does that do to your life?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:47:35] It exploded. My whole life. My whole life exploded. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:39] Talk about that. What happened? Tell the story.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:47:42] It exploded. My marriage exploded and I left the church. So within a matter of probably four months, I was divorced and no longer going to church.

John Dehlin [01:47:55] Whoa, four months?

Margi Dehlin [01:47:56] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:47:57] From one trip or were you having other trips in that time?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:48:00] So during that time, I'm trying to think. I don't think I had any trips for a couple months. I think I waited until probably five months or so because I was preoccupied with my life falling apart, you know. But yeah, it was. It was incredibly traumatic. It was almost like. And I said this to you earlier, but it was almost like if you were happily married. Like I was happily married or in a relationship with the church and then I walked in on them having an affair, you know, it was just like, oh, no. Like, this was not what I thought it was.

John Dehlin [01:48:34] And I know that we don't want to get into, you know, obviously divorces are messy and whatever, but, like, I'm thinking about somebody who's thinking, okay, I'm open. I'm open to, you know, mushrooms if it'll help me with my mental health immediately. What I'm. I guess what I'm fearing is, and this displays some of my bias because I love Margi and our relationship, but, like, I'm. I'm fearing that people now are going to hear, oh, take mushrooms, it's going to blow up your religious worldview and you're going to leave your spouse. Yeah, right.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:07] Yeah, you might.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:49:08] You might.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:08] It will reveal what is true. It will.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:49:11] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:11] It will clear away the dust. It will take off the masks. So, yeah, if, like, your marriage is. Isn't a true.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:49:19] Like, if it's not in alignment with what your soul is actually, you know, it's like people can do a lot of things to, to get by.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:28] Yes.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:49:29] You know, but then all of a sudden, management.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:31] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:49:32] Symptom management. But then all of a sudden, you know, the mushrooms just blew all that off. Like, it blew the lid off of that for me. And it was just like, you can't. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

John Dehlin [01:49:42] You know, if somebody like. Oh, go ahead, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:46] I was going to say, obviously there are a lot of ex Mormon couples who do mushrooms together and they. They don't get divorced. So just.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:49:52] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [01:49:53] I don't want to make people too scared, but it. But there is a level of bravery. And I do think when you take psychedelics, you're signing up for, you know, like, you're using them, I think, to, to have truth revealed to you. And, and it's like, how. How courageous are you? But I think for a lot of us, we had this experience of not knowing they were going to reveal that much truth or, or do that, and then suddenly we're confronted with all these realities that we didn't even necessarily know we weren't confronting or couldn't identify. So. So that is. That is kind of the name of the game with psychedelics is not that everyone who takes psychedelics always arrives at greater truth and, you know, things. There's a variety of experiences that people can have, but so that when they work well, that's what they're doing.

John Dehlin [01:50:34] So, Stephanie, would you use that, the term Samantha just used in your story, the truth was revealed to you? Are those words you would use?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:50:42] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:50:42] Oh, yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:50:43] Because I'm triggered now and here's what I mean. Like Mormonism, the truth restored, the truth is revealed. Joseph Smith had the truth revealed unto him. So, number one, like, any time any source is claiming to reveal truth. I'm worried.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:50:57] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [01:50:58] I'm conditioned to be worried. But then I'm also like, this is just a piece of food. Like, this is a little plant thing that you're eating. It doesn't have the power to reveal truth. Or does it? Or does it? I want to let. I want to let the answer.

Samantha Shelley [01:51:16] She's bothering me.

John Dehlin [01:51:16] No, no, no, you're great. I just want to start.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:51:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:19] Like, truth revealed. It's a mushroom. You eat it well. You understand that.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:51:25] Well, truth is a very relative term. It's a very relative term. And there isn't, like, a truth that we all need to be revealed to that the, you know, like the church like to make us think that there is. So it's not like that.

Samantha Shelley [01:51:40] Other than maybe I would say concepts like interconnectedness. The fact that we're all interconnected, to me, is kind of like a universal truth that we all kind of do need to arrive at or like love. Yeah. It's not, you know, like. Yeah, a specific. Pretty broad. And.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:51:57] Yeah. Beyond.

Samantha Shelley [01:51:58] Everyone's gonna have.

John Dehlin [01:51:59] So for you, what was it?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:52:00] It was just what. What actual love was. You know, it was just like the idea that love doesn't actually have conditions and that all the conditions are entirely fabricated. They're just completely made up. And it was interesting to, I don't know, just compare and contrast so many different traditions and belief systems and philosophies and be like, they're all doing the same thing. They're taking spirituality and they're adding stipulations to it.

Samantha Shelley [01:52:29] But did you find that you would that. Because for me, I was completely just like, anti Jesus, anti anything religious. But then I would revisit these words that Jesus wrote about what love is, and I was like, yeah, this guy gets it.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:52:41] Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, there's. There's a huge, I want to say, impulse to sort of throw the baby out with the bathwater, especially after leaving Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:52:52] But. But what I hear you saying is, is that mushroomed help mushrooms helped you realize what true love is, and you realize that the Mormon Church wasn't selling that form of pure love. And then I think I'm also hearing you say, although we're not going to get into it, that you must have discovered that while you would have gone into the mushroom experience feeling like you had a happy and a healthy marriage, you must have concluded that that wasn't the marriage that you want or the love that you wanted and needed after the experience.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:53:28] Yeah, yeah. And. And I want to add too that like, you know, looking back on it, I would say at the time that there was always something in the back of my mind not, not necessarily about him, where I was like, there was something in the back of my mind, but something in the back of my mind with our relationship that I was kind of like pushing away, you know. And so I don't want people to think that if they're just like deeply in love with their partner that they're gonna go in and all of a sudden just, you know, it was like, it was kind of always there. I was just very, very disconnected from it, you know.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:00] And I feel like when you sort of expand your view of love to be, you know, less conditional and more about complete acceptance and non possessiveness and all those things, you realize that sometimes people don't necessarily leave their spouse. Cause they're like, oh, we don't love each other. But because they realize how much they do love each other and they accidentally access that like, undefiled love that is not being, you know, interfered with by like culture or conditioning or any. You know, they're accessing that true place of love within them. And then they realize that the most loving thing we can do is to go our separate ways.

John Dehlin [01:54:34] So it'll be better for each of you.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:36] Yeah. So it's like when we're talking about, you know, it. It sounds so scary, the thought that some people might have realizations like that. But at the end of the day,

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:54:46] it's.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:46] It's kind of like with. Maybe it's not true for everyone, but it's sort of like with leaving the Mormon Church, it sounds like the absolute worst thing that can happen. You know, the idea that you would lose your faith when you're in it, but you don't realize all the good things that, you know, you don't realize that it's going to come from such an expanded place that is gonna, for a lot of people, though, not everyone is gonna feel so much better. And like, you don't know how that's gonna feel until you're there.

John Dehlin [01:55:11] But I get that. That makes sense. But in your case, there were also three kids involved.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:55:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:17] And so like, I'm trying to imagine a four month. Your husband's like, I love you. We have a great marriage. Maybe mushrooms will help you try them. Four months later, you're out of the church and divorced. What can you tell us about those four months in terms of, like, your story? Because that's a lot.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:55:34] It was absolute chaos. It was absolute chaos. It was literally like the blinders got removed. You know, the glass shattered. It just completely exploded.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:46] It was like, constant realizations after that. Like, once the lid came off, were you just. Like, every week, every day, I was

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:55:52] having my mind blown constantly. I was just like, what? Like, I can't believe this and this and this and, oh, my gosh, what about that? And this is insane. And it was just like. It was absolutely absolute chaos.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:03] Can I ask you a question about that experience? Like, how did that feel, that.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:56:09] That process?

Margi Dehlin [01:56:11] Like, did it feel liberating? Did it feel like, honest? Did it feel really destabilizing? Did it feel like, how was your anxiety after?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:56:21] It felt incredibly traumatic. It was very, very traumatic. Like, I didn't feel like there was something in me that. That knew that it was the right thing, that I was doing the right things. But it takes a lot longer for your nervous system to catch up to that, you know, to get on board with what's happening. And so even though I could say, like, this is the right thing and these are the things that I have to do and this is happening, and, you know, every ounce of my internal state was like, oh, no. You know, just like it. Very, very, very traumatic.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:00] Because your conditioning wants to fight back as well and just get back to this, the familiar.

John Dehlin [01:57:05] And it's not like you. Like a lot of people, I see a lot of divorce. It's sort of like, you know, church isn't working. Question the church, lose your faith, leave the church, figure out your marriage. And then maybe some point down the line, you either leave the church and. Or don't and. Or leave your marriage. I'm just trying to process. Within four months, you go from Molly Mormon to divorced and leave the church. That velocity again. We talk about atypical on Mormon stories that velocity is light speed, both in terms of marriage and your relationship with the church. So how do you explain that?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:57:52] Mushrooms. That's the only way I can explain that.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:54] It was a good state of consciousness.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:57:55] Yeah, like, your brain is like. It was like an expanded state of awareness. All of a sudden, I could see things for what they were, and it was like, this is not good. You know, I mean, there's no other way to describe it. And I know that that doesn't happen to everyone. Like I was saying, everybody's psychedelic experiences are so. There's such a wide variety of what can happen. But for whatever reason, that was my experience and I.

Mental Health Outcomes and Shifting Spirituality

John Dehlin [01:58:23] So bring it back to your mental health. You went into the mushrooms experience with severe anxiety and depression. So would you say that the insight you gained from that first mushroom experience then led you to make the changes that you needed to make to get in a healthier state of mind?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:58:45] Yes, but that is a long process. At least it was for me. Some people I know, they go into mushrooms. Excuse me, they go into mushrooms or some other like psychedelic and they immediately feel better or, you know, they're receiving a lot of like. I guess I want to say it's more, it's more of a peaceful process for them, but for me it was basically like, oh, the reason that you're anxious and depressed is because of your. Everything that you're repressing, like everything that you're repressing in your life that you didn't even know that you were repressing because of your upbringing and your conditioning being in the church, you know, and so I, in order to get to a place where I was healthier as far as like anxiety and depression and all that goes, I, I had to work through so many of the beliefs that I had been fed about myself, about the world, about God, spirituality, whatever, all of that. It was like, it became clear to me that my beliefs, my beliefs about life were what was making me anxious and depressed. And I didn't even know it.

John Dehlin [01:59:54] Let's dig in. What were the top three to five?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [01:59:58] Just the idea that you can do something that makes you unworthy. That's, you know, it's interesting because when you're in the church and you're following all the rules, you don't realize that that belief gives you anxiety because you're following the rules, you know, but it's like that is a fear based belief. That is not a love based belief. And so the idea that you can do something that makes you unworthy is constantly going to be feeding this sort of like perfectionistic mindset in order to keep yourself in an effort to keep yourself safe, I want to say. And then the idea that there are, there's like a dark force that's trying to tempt you and trick you. I'm like, it wasn't until after I did mushrooms and I started working with like spiritual coaches that I was like, oh my gosh, like the belief in Satan is entirely optional. Like, you don't even have to believe in that. I'm like, why would anybody choose to teach that to their children? That was so harmful for me, just like not only that, like God or whoever was like watching everything that you did, but that like there was an active force that was trying to harm you, that was trying to get you off the path. Like that is like, how can you believe that and not have anxiety?

John Dehlin [02:01:21] Not just Satan, but billions of his.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:01:24] And they're around you all the time and you can't see them. And they're very tricky. They're going to trick you. They're very deceptive. And so you're constantly like, can I trust myself? Can I trust this thought? Can I trust this feeling? I don't know, is this coming from God or is this coming from Satan? And then. Which leads me into like the next belief that like your feelings come from outside of you. You know, you're essentially taught that whatever you feel, it's either something that you're. That's coming from God or something that's coming from Satan, essentially. And so you're constantly in this state of wondering, am I worthy enough to be in tune with the guidance that I'm supposed to be receiving or am I secretly being tricked by Satan and I just can't see it. That was like my entire life

John Dehlin [02:02:12] and not having the sense of self efficacy that the wisdom was within.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:02:19] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:02:20] But Mushrooms helped you be open to the idea.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:02:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:24] That like what Jesus said, the kingdom of God is within you.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:02:27] Yeah, right. It was literally like, oh, it's all here. And so what is the church doing? They're not, they're literally not giving me anything. They're just making me think that they are.

John Dehlin [02:02:38] Well, they're kind of blocking you from.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:02:39] They're taking, aren't they? They're taking, yeah. And when you grow up Mormon, like, you're in a constant state, especially as Mormon, as I did, you're in a constant state of dissociation because like you're being fed these beliefs from the time that you're a child, but you don't even realize that those beliefs aren't. At least for me, I didn't realize that they weren't in alignment for me because they were so enmeshed with my identity and they were making me happy and all this stuff. So you. But it's not, it's not the actual reality. The actual reality is that I was very, very dissociated from my true sense of, you know, being my embodied self in order to maintain this belief system that I had been told was true. It's like indoctrination. You know, there's. There's kind of this idea that like, especially People that leave the church, they get told a lot like, well, how are you going to know what to teach your kids and how are you gonna know how to tell em about the truth and stuff like that and how are they gonna lead a good lifestyle? And it's like kids actually being told what to believe is way more harmful than being given the freedom to feel into their body, to feel what resonates with them, you know, because then when you're, when you're told essentially what is truth, you never get the chance to develop that connection with yourself. To develop like, this is what I want, this is who I want to be. This is, this is what feels true to me. Because you're, you're given something else that you are told you have to accept and you don't even realize that that's what's happening. Especially if you grow up in an environment like I did where I loved my parents and I saw that they were happy. It's just like you take everything that they're saying and you're just like, this is truth, this is what it's gotta be.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:24] Also, human moods are like not supposed to be one thing anyway. But don't you think it's kind of easy in Mormonism to, to be sort of conceptually happy because you, because, because you are like everything is how it should be. It's almost like happiness is a concept rather than a feeling, which happiness is. A feeling doesn't, isn't really going to be constant no matter who you are.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:04:46] Yeah, and there was, there's also this idea in the church that like, and we kind of already talked about this, but it's like if you're not happy, then you're doing something wrong or something is wrong or if you don't want, if you're not doing something wrong, then there's just something wrong with your brain and there's not really anything you can do about it, you know, except for maybe take medication. And so, you know, since leaving I've been able to develop a much more healthy approach to emotion in general. Where it's like emotion is, this is how it is. You know, people are just going to be doing this because this is, that we live in like an emotional world, you know, that's just the nature of reality and that it's not an indication that something is wrong or that something is wrong with you.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:26] You know, and constantly analyzing your thoughts and feelings again through the God Satan lens is really not conducive to just like allowing them all to pass through you.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:05:36] Yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [02:05:37] So really quickly, I just want to capture the main ones. So we've got the harmful Mormon beliefs that I've heard listed so far are that. That our worthiness, Our worth is tied to our behavior. You didn't like that that was harmful, right? That there's Satan and dark spirits all around us trying to tempt us and hurt us, and that our thoughts and feelings might be us, might be the Holy Ghost and God, or might be Satan and the dark spirits. And how do you know the difference is that. Right. Okay. The third is that basically conditioning, Mormon conditioning, that we shouldn't really listen to our true selves in our thoughts and feelings, that we kind of suppress that, mute it, disassociate, and pay attention to some external authority as our source for wisdom and truth and guidance. Which is the church. Right?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:06:29] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:06:31] Okay. And that. And that feelings come from external sources versus from within. Okay. Any other top five, top ten harmful teachings or feelings that. That came to you?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:06:50] There's so many. I feel like what's so interesting about it too is like, I would never. I would never like if I was a Mormon, if I was an active Mormon right now and I was hearing you say those things, I would literally say, that's not what the church teaches. That's not what the church tells you. Because they're manipulate. The way they use their language is very manipulative. So they'll say, so for example, the belief that you can. Okay, so here's a good example. Like, what a blessing that we have temples and that we can be with our families forever because of temples. So you hear that as a member and you're just like, oh, we are so blessed. We are so. This is so fantastic when underneath that, what they're actually saying is, if you don't go to the temple and give us your money and follow these other things, you can't be with your family, you know, so it's like as a member, you can't even see that that's what they're actually saying because they're not coming out and saying it, you know? And so I feel like the entire church is just filled with harmful teachings that I'm like, that they can't even see that that's what they're being fed, you know, I mean, just like the concept that we're fallen, that we're naturally bad, like the natural man is an enemy to God, that we're naturally going to want to do bad things and that we need the idea that we need to be saved, that you have to do certain things in order to be saved, you know, stuff like that.

John Dehlin [02:08:18] So. But that's touching on Jesus. That.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:08:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:20] And that's probably the most sacred Mormon belief. The atonement that Jesus died for us, that Jesus suffered for our sins to make our sins right and that through Jesus suffering we'll be able to live with Heavenly Father again. Mushrooms made you feel what about all that?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:08:35] Mushrooms made me feel that Jesus is just as misinterpreted as any other. Like I feel like you can for me personally love Jesus and then be like, what is Christianity doing? That's my own opinion.

Samantha Shelley [02:08:51] Could not agree more.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:08:52] Yeah. So I feel like I had a very close affinity with Jesus. Like very much. Just like I told you in my childhood, very loved Jesus. And then after mushrooms I was like, I think these people are wrong about Jesus. I think they're, I think that whatever they're saying or doing about, you know, whatever they've done with Jesus is very much rooted in fear and shame and control. And I don't think that's Jesus, I think that's humans making Christianity, you know,

John Dehlin [02:09:18] so it didn't, Mushrooms didn't make you dislike Jesus?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:09:21] No.

John Dehlin [02:09:22] It made you realize that people were misinterpreting or misusing Jesus's teachings for harmful or self interested motives.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:09:32] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:33] Same psychedelics made me like have appreciate Jesus again or you know, stop caring about him at all.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:09:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:42] The pure kind of Jesus's own teachings versus filtered through.

Samantha Shelley [02:09:45] Yeah. And I think, and obviously, yeah. It's hard to pin down like what, what, what. I don't know enough about the history of like the actual Jesus but you know, someone wrote down things that at some point that feel true to me.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:09:59] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:10:00] Whether or not it was like the, exactly what we think of as Jesus but outside of like, you know, people are using his teachings to like manipulate and all those things. Like. Yes. But I also just feel like it's the nature of the human ego to just like want a blueprint, to want the like plug and play, to you know, do this and you'll get this outcome. And it's like I feel like awakening isn't like that.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:10:21] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:10:21] But we can't really, we don't know what we don't know and we, we're not very good at handling that because the ego wants like a surefire way to get to salvation or whatever it is.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:10:31] Yeah. And it is so interesting how like the more you learn about different belief systems and theologies and stuff, it's like they really all are kind of saying the same Thing. And it's. It's. You can see the patterns of how the mind really does want a blueprint, like you're saying. But then you can kind of look at it at all as a whole and be like, no one actually really knows, you know, and we're all just deeply struggling with the fact that we don't know, you know, Whereas sitting in that sort of unknown is actually, like, where the most growth happens, you know?

John Dehlin [02:11:06] Yeah. Okay, Stephanie, so while we're on the topic of sort of core themes of Mormonism that you deconstructed, I want to ask you just a couple more core Mormon doctrines and ask how your psychedelic experiences impacted those teachings. Is that okay?

Samantha Shelley [02:11:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:24] Okay. So we talked about this idea of Jesus and as a savior, and that we're broken and fallen and needing to be saved. And that kind of fell away for you.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:11:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:34] What about just the idea of a God or a heavenly father or supreme being? How did that change for you?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:11:40] Yeah, that also fell away, but it was kind of one of those things where that one happened a little more gradually, but still very, very quickly, like maybe over the course of six months. But it was kind of one of those things where I realized that it didn't matter what you thought, quote, unquote, God was. So. It was like, it's not that I was like, anybody who believes that God is a being is wrong. It was kind of like that no longer resonate. Resonates with me, but if it resonates with you, that's okay. But no one really knows, you know, and the churches, the church is giving us this thing, like, they say, we know. And it's like, no, you don't. You know, like, you can find what resonates with you, but that doesn't mean that, you know. So essentially it was kind of like, hey, the psychedelics kind of showed me, like, what resonates with you. Like, find what feels good in your body and go with that. And that's, you know, going to be different for everyone based on where they're at in their own progression.

John Dehlin [02:12:44] So psychedelics made you an agnostic?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:12:46] Is that what that makes me?

John Dehlin [02:12:47] Well, I mean, that's. Isn't that kind of textbook? Agnostic means you. You don't believe that people can know.

Samantha Shelley [02:12:54] I know, yeah. I. I get what you're saying, but I feel like my friend Tana Gill and always said that he doesn't believe in a higher power. He believes in a wider power. And I feel like that is sort of the psychedelic experience where it almost makes you A. Is it polytheist? What's the word I'm looking for? I can't remember.

John Dehlin [02:13:10] Theistic.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:11] Pantheistic? Yeah. It's like you can see how words are only at. Words and concepts are only ever the finger pointing at the moon. They're not the moon. And so like if, if someone else finds a certain framework useful, like I think Taoism is a useful framework for sort of describing how I experience life and what seems true for me. But you don't have to care about Daoism or use that framework to, you know what I mean? There's different ideologies and philosophies can describe the same things in different language or with sort of different concepts. Seems like that, right?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:13:44] Yeah. And kind of like this idea that what we're doing on earth is just storytelling. It's a bunch of. It really is story, it's all story. And those stories are, you know, resonating for people in different ways. And it's not to say that there aren't some like sort of underlying things like we were talking about earlier, like this, this sort of like underlying sense of consciousness or this underlying sense of love or togetherness or whatever, but inside of that we're all just, just telling stories. At least this was how it unraveled for me at the time.

John Dehlin [02:14:19] So what about a belief in a unifying power or an energy or something that's bringing it all together for you?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:14:27] Yeah, I mean, because some people have

John Dehlin [02:14:29] that psychedelic experience and they feel.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:14:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:14:31] Connected as one to the universe.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:14:33] I definitely, definitely had that where it was kind of this sort of realization that like, you know, we appear separate but we're, we're actually connected, you know.

John Dehlin [02:14:47] Meaning humans.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:14:48] Yeah, like we. Yeah. Sort of like an underlying sense of oneness, you know, but once again, that's just me. You know, I think that there's so many. There's so many ways to sort of like connect to your own spirituality that don't have to even involve that. You know what I mean?

Samantha Shelley [02:15:06] Although when you say that interconnectedness is kind of like, is a self evident truth in that. Like. Yeah, we are all interconnected.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:15:14] Yeah. So I mean, I feel like you can believe in interconnectedness without necessarily having to say that you believe in some sort of greater power necessarily. Like, I know what resonates for me, but it's like I just know how it's so individual and I hate that there's, you know, especially after leaving religion, there is so much emphasis on very specific ways that you can quote, unquote, be Spiritual. And it's like, that's not even accurate. Like, there's a ton of spirituality in atheism. I feel like there's a ton of spirituality in just accepting your humanness and accepting that this is, you know, like, what do you. What do I want to do while I'm here? What, like, what connects me to my heart? What gives me greater meaning and greater purpose, you know? And so it's like, I feel like in that sense, I don't feel like it really. There is, like a one size fits all, you know, so.

John Dehlin [02:16:06] So that. That was the next question I was going to ask. So Mormonism spirituality means do you feel the Holy Ghost or not? And this is some member of the Godhead that can come into your body and tell you to turn left or right or what, who to marry or what major to do in college or where to find your keys. Right? So. So. Or spirituality is the warm fuzzies you get when the warm and Tabernacle Choir sings or when someone bears their testimony hair stands up on your arms or your, you know, spine tingles or whatever. So what does spirituality mean to you now?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:16:38] Yeah, and I would add to that as well, that spirituality for me, when I was a Mormon was a connection to a deity. And now spirituality for me is very much being a human is a spiritual thing. Like you. It's like you have your mental and your emotional and your physical and your spiritual aspects of yourself. And it's like a part of your makeup. And your spiritual makeup is literally just anything that drops you into your heart. You know, it's like being with your children, walking your dog, being in nature. You know what I kind of what I was saying a minute ago, like, what do I want to do while I'm here? You know, it doesn't matter if you believe in a God. It doesn't matter if you believe in an afterlife. It's like when you're connecting to that sort of deeper sense of, like, meaning, that, to me is spirituality. And it's. It's so sad to me that people are fed a very specific narrative about what spirituality is. So then when they leave the church, they completely. They have no footing. They're like, I don't know how to, you know, be connected to that sort of aspect in myself because it was given this lens, and I no longer want that lens.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:53] And I feel like within Mormonism, people will mock the idea that you're spiritual without being religious, because their idea of spirituality is. Is all about, like, having the right concepts, believing in the right Concepts. When I feel like what's been a more useful spirituality to me is like shedding concepts and, you know, becoming more sort of uniform.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:18:13] I agree. I feel like religion. All in my opinion, what it does is it. It adds at least my experience with religion, with Mormonism, it adds concepts to spirituality. It's not. It's just adding a bunch of stuff that's completely unnecessary.

John Dehlin [02:18:28] Complicates it.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:18:29] Yeah, complicates it. Not only complicates it, but is harmful.

Samantha Shelley [02:18:33] I love how I feel like you just described the concept of like embodiment versus transcendence. Like, a lot of the time in organized religion, it's all about trying to like, transcend your humanness and like, what's the next. Next thing, the next life. Like, how can we overcome our human nature versus what you just described was just embodiment in the human experience and like having a fuller, richer human experience.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:18:52] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [02:18:53] And it's interesting that that will be belittled by people who are, you know, like, die hard believers in certain organized religions, because it's what could be better than having a richer, fuller, more dynamic human experience.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:06] So, Margi, I want to get to your question, but I don't want to leave the. This one topic of what religion adds to spirituality. So you've already talked about shame, you've talked about guilt, you've talked about external sources of authority, muting your own inner voice. What else does Mormonism put on top of spirituality that not only isn't helpful, but that is harmful to you?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:19:30] I mean, it's a lot of exclusion. You know, it's like they, they talk about the church being such a great community, but it's like, you know, before, before religious community, we had the village, you know, and so it's like, what is religion? All they've done is drawn a line in the sand where there didn't need to be a line in the sand. So it's like, you know, we have all these stipulations, and if you follow these stipulations, you can belong here. But it's like belonging. You belong because you're a human, you

John Dehlin [02:20:07] know, not because you got baptized or got your endowment or served a mission or got married in the temple.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:20:13] Yeah. So they offer you, you know, they offer. And it's tricky because when you're, when you're like an active believing Mormon, you're very comfortable. At least I was. And so of course, people are like, I love it here. Like, this community's so great for me. But then you have to really look at like, but at what cost? You know, like, look at how much harm it's doing to the people who can't belong. Which is, yeah, a whole other topic that I could talk about. Just how they're promoting, you know, sort of like belonging and inclusive inclusivity, but actually they're the ones that created the exclusivity in the first place.

Samantha Shelley [02:20:51] How can you have conditions for belonging and not have people fall outside of it? Exactly. Not belong, like, so the system almost requires people to not belong to continue functioning.

John Dehlin [02:21:01] I mean, in that way it feels more Christ like your path just because you think about God, an all loving God and Jesus. If you're going to believe in God and Jesus, who's not invited.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:21:11] Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that was the weirdest part is when, when I was like, just like deconstructing church stuff, it was all based in love. And so I would, you know, it was so weird to feel the same on the inside. Like, my whole life I had been trying to do what felt loving and felt right. And then all of a sudden what I was doing that felt loving and right wasn't lining up with what anybody else was saying. And so all of a sudden people were like, oh, I don't want to hear that, I don't want to talk about that. I don't want, you know, But I'm like, but wait, this is coming from the same place. It's coming from that, that place of I'm doing the right thing. And then all of a sudden everyone was perceiving it as something that was wrong. Which is a weird shift, you know, because when you're Mormon, if you have spiritual experiences, you can go to anybody and talk about them, you can share them in sacrament meaning. And everybody's just like, oh my gosh, like, it's so beautiful, you know, and then all of a sudden I'm like, these experiences like, were so life changing and people are like, oh, I don't know about that.

John Dehlin [02:22:12] I guess there's all the rules, like, you know, don't drink coffee, don't drink tea, don't try mushrooms. I imagine those things you might now view as being anathema to spirituality rules.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:22:23] Yes, yes. I mean, yeah, Like, I feel like what Mormonism adds to spirituality, it's like, of course there's the fear and the shame and the control. There's. It's just a whole bunch of conditions that are unnecessary. You know, it's like they don't have monopoly on anything and they're just leveraging people's connection to their own soul and adding a bunch of stipulations to it that are taking away from it. So whether it's the rules or it's telling you how to dress, or telling you that this and this and this makes you unworthy, or telling you that you have to confess to someone, or telling you that they need your money, or telling you that, you know, you're fallen, you know, just like there's so many. I feel like the whole thing, I'm just like, it just. It just completely. I guess I just did a complete 180.

John Dehlin [02:23:24] And so you said spirituality now is a sense of love. It's a sense of connectedness. Anything else Any other ways you want to describe what spirituality means to you now?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:23:34] Yeah, I mean, I think that's what's interesting is once I dropped my religious definitions of God, all of a sudden, God became everything. It was like, I would be doing the dishes and I'm just like crying, you know, like, this is so beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:23:50] Literally.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:51] Yeah. Like, I used to see the laundry. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:23:54] Like, I can't believe I get to be alive. I can't believe I get to be a human being. I can't believe. Like. Like spirituality is like your relationships.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:02] Like.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:24:02] Like being able to touch people, being able to connect, like sitting in the grass. Like, it sounds so corny, but literally you're just like, oh my gosh. Like, God is not, at least for me, something far away that I'm trying to reach. Like, it's here everywhere in everything that we do all the time.

John Dehlin [02:24:19] So, like a sense of wonder and a sense of gratitude.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:24:23] Yeah. Like, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:24] And I love how accessible it is.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:24:27] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:27] As opposed to kind of our conditioning

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:24:30] where it was like, you really have

Margi Dehlin [02:24:31] to work and you have to, like, get everything right and be doing everything right. And then even then, maybe, you know, you're going to be tested and it's not going to come to you and you're going to have to have a

Samantha Shelley [02:24:38] good about how you're doing. Well, then that will get you right,

Margi Dehlin [02:24:41] because, yeah, it's so accessible. It's everywhere. And there's no scarcity of it. It's like abundance.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:24:46] Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly how I feel.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:49] So. Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:24:50] And it's like I said, it doesn't really have anything to do with what you believe per se. It's like a state of being that we all have. And it's like, if you. If you want to be atheist, that's fantastic. I've read so many articles about atheism that Just, like, make me cry, you know, and then I'll read things about, you know, different aspects of different, like, ideologies and theologies and whatever. And I'm just like, oh, there's just. There's so many different ways to approach it. And we were just given a very, very, very specific lens.

John Dehlin [02:25:21] Okay. Margi, you had a question or comment you wanted to make. Do you still have it?

Margi Dehlin [02:25:24] Oh, no, it was tied to something she was saying before.

John Dehlin [02:25:27] Okay, you're good. Samantha, were you wanting to have you

Samantha Shelley [02:25:30] had that quote that's like, spirituality isn't peeling the potatoes while thinking about spiritual things. It's just peeling the potatoes being fully in it.

John Dehlin [02:25:39] Yeah. And I think Han is really into. He's a. Like. Like Eckhart Tolle or the Buddha or whatever Lao Tzu he would talk about, like, mindful washing the dishes. You know, mindful walking down the street. Just mindful brushing your teeth. Is that kind of just living in the present moment?

Samantha Shelley [02:25:57] He may have said that quote. I can't remember.

John Dehlin [02:25:59] Yeah, just really living in the present moment can be spirituality. Just being aware of everything around you.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:05] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:26:06] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:06] It's like there's this. Sorry, didn't mean to cut you off. There's like, this magical realm that you can have access to if you're just still enough to tap into it. And it's like this undercurrent. I feel like we're talking about this at dinner the other week, but it's like it's there the whole time. If you just slow down enough to sort of feel into it. Everything can be magical.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:26:24] Yeah. And not only. Not only is it there if you slow down, but a lot of times you can't even access that if you have such rigid mental conditioning, you know, which is what I feel like mushrooms did for me, where it, like, pulled me outside of myself, and I was like, whoa. I was fed all of these beliefs that are preventing me from seeing what was actually just there the whole time that I didn't actually have to do anything to earn.

John Dehlin [02:26:50] So the. The belief in prophets, that's a core teaching that God speaks to us through men that he calls called prophets. Did that change? And so how.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:27:03] Just that they're like, first of all, that there's no hierarchy, that everyone is equal, truly equal, like, horizontally relating. And also that there is no need for a middleman ever. And that there's no way that God would have, like, secrets like that. Like, tell, like, reveal things to one person about you or that you need to know, but not just tell you Directly.

John Dehlin [02:27:34] Okay, what about. So the idea of bishops, prophets and bishops probably became problematic.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:27:41] Yeah, yeah. All at once.

John Dehlin [02:27:43] And I'm guessing another key thing with Mormonism is authority. That it's this church. The Mormon Church has authority. All other churches don't have authority. And you have to have the right ordinances. Baptism, confirmation, temple, temple, marriage, temple endowments. Not only do you have to be in the right church with the right authority, but have the right ordinances from the right church with the right authority.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:28:06] Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, it literally, it was like. It all felt like mythology to me. I was, like, looking at it and I'm like, there. It just felt so made up, which is kind of like how it is, you know, And I'm like, I don't know what they're doing, but I don't. It's getting in the way. Whatever they're doing is some weird sort of mental construct that they've developed that they think that they need, but they actually don't.

Samantha Shelley [02:28:35] It's exactly what you would imagine a person in the 19th century coming up with a religion would turn into, if you know what I mean. Yeah, like, it's exactly that.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:28:44] And what's. What's extra tricky about Mormonism, I feel like, is that it is such a loving space on the surface. So it's not like. Which I think Joseph Smith probably really recognized that people were hungry for that. You know, it's probably like, you know, all these churches that are like, God's gonna ban you to hell. And then all of a sudden, Joe Smith's like, wait a minute, God's actually loving, you know, and. And he comes in and he like. And people are like, oh, I love this idea, you know, and so he focused so much on, like. I feel like my experience with the church is they focus so much on that, on the love that you somehow miss all the. The other stuff that they're actually saying underneath that, you know.

John Dehlin [02:29:23] Okay, so let's see. I'm trying to think of, oh, scripture. So speaking of mythology, Bible, Book of Mormon, that we need holy books, Christian, Mormon, holy books, scripture to guide us.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:29:42] I feel like a sacred text could literally be anything, you know, you can. I've had spiritual experiences with so many books since leaving the church that are not, quote unquote, sacred texts.

John Dehlin [02:29:56] And it's all by Mormon evaluation.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:58] Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:29:59] I mean, just regular books on, you know, all sorts of things. And so, yeah, it's not that, like, I very much connected with the Book of Mormon, which I think a lot of people do, obviously. When they're in the church. And it's not that I look at that and think that that was all pretend or made up my experiences per se, but it just made me realize like, oh, that's not because it's the Book of Mormon. It's just because I was sitting down in an. With an intentional mindset and trying to connect with God. Of course, of course you're going to feel whatever you're going to, you know, something, some sort of connection, but that doesn't mean that it's true.

John Dehlin [02:30:37] You know, what about. So this is a. This is a derivative. But what about. How did you come to interpret past spiritual experiences? Because I'm guessing pre mushrooms, you would have said, oh, I've had a ton of spiritual experiences.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:30:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:54] How have, how do you now look

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:30:55] back and I feel like I don't know what other people say who you have talked to, but I feel like for me personally, looking back on all my experiences in the church, they were 100% real spiritual experiences. The problem is that those spiritual experiences are being filtered through your conditioning. So it was interesting to me how after I left the church, I would see the same thing happen in these sort of like plant medicine circles or these groups of people being like, oh, I'm having these spiritual experiences. But it was very clear that there was like, mental distortion happening because everything that you're experiencing spiritually is still getting filtered through your. Your ego construct. Right. And so looking back in the church, it's like, yeah, I had so many spiritual experiences there, but that's just because we're inherently spiritual beings. And then those spiritual experiences were being taken and filtered through this lens that I had that made me attach them to the scriptures, to the temple, to the prophet, you know, to the doctrine.

Samantha Shelley [02:31:58] Yeah, that makes sense. I'm curious how you would describe as what. What counts as a spiritual experience. Like, thinking about how you say people can have spiritual experiences, but they're being filtered. Like, what differentiates in your mind a spiritual experience from just like heightened emotion?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:32:14] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:14] Or is heightened emotion. Can that alone be. I'm just curious.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:32:17] I feel like I was gonna say that as well. I think there is confusion a lot between, like, feeling peace and love and comfort and joy as emotional states that people are like, oh, this is a spiritual experience, or this is a sign of something. You know, I feel like for me, you know, a spirituality or like a spiritual experience is sort of like a deep, deep connection to what feels like the soul to me. It's like a deep part inside of me. It doesn't necessarily feel like. Yeah, I don't know if that makes sense.

Samantha Shelley [02:32:54] And so it seems to me like if there's not kind of a lessening of your ego in some way or like a. Like a falling away of the. Of cultural baggage or what, then I almost struggle to see it as a spiritual experience. Maybe I don't need to be defining it this much, but.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:33:11] Yeah, and that's the thing too, is we've definitely been given, like, when we hear the word spiritual experience that we've been given, like, a very specific idea of what that is. And it's like, it doesn't necessarily have to be defined in a certain way, and it's most certainly not only defined by how we were taught growing up, you know, so. But I feel like there is, you know, there is a lot of sort of. It's just like, for me, my spiritual experiences were very sincere and they felt very real. But I also know that there were other spiritual experiences I had that were simply just a specific emotional state in the right setting, in the right context, you know, so it's like I had both.

John Dehlin [02:33:55] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [02:33:56] Because one doesn't necessarily connect you more to life and to things. It almost just can strengthen your ego.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:34:03] Yeah. It can just make you feel concepts. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:34:08] Okay, so how did you think about morality? Because obviously, I wonder if you felt like a little bit like Eve and partaking of the forbidden fruit. Like, Eve was commanded not to partake, but she knew there was wisdom in the fruit. So she. She broke the law, but she knew that it was going to be good for her, and she partook of the fruit and she became wise, like. So that's kind of a question about morality.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:34:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:35] Did your views on morality change?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:34:36] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:37] And if so, how?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:34:38] I mean, morality, meaning you're talking about, like, sexual morality or like having good morals, period.

John Dehlin [02:34:46] Be sex. Yes. But also drugs and just morality. What, what, what is. How do you have a moral compass now? And if so, what is it? Yeah, Are there things that you thought were bad that now you don't think they're bad or.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:34:57] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:58] You used to not care about that. Now you think are bad.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:35:00] You know, I feel like morals, once again, is a very. A matter of opinion for a lot of people. It's like, unless it's harming yourself, harming the planet, or harming another person, then it is. It is not immoral. Like, there's no morals beyond that, in my opinion. So when people, you know, sort of moralize things where they're like, your Shoulders are immoral or, you know, having sex before marriage is immoral. That to me is more just a sort of like, it's. It's almost like it's imposed for a sense of righteousness, per se, you know, like a feeling of wanting to feel righteous, to feel good, to feel like you're a good, righteous person, but in actuality, they're not harmful, you know, and so it's like, when I think of morals, the thing that comes to mind is just like, if it's. Is it harmful, then. Then it. Then don't do it. You know, we don't want violence. We don't want violence. Aside from that, it's all just made up. People just make up their rules that they want to make up.

John Dehlin [02:36:06] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:36:06] That's my opinion.

John Dehlin [02:36:07] Okay. All right. Okay. Any other questions from Margier Samantha about kind of deconstructing Mormonism? I guess I should say. You never read the CES letter or, like, learned about Joseph Smith and his polygamy and the Book of Abraham and the kinderhood plates and the stone in the hat?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:36:26] Even if all of that. Even if I would have known all that in the church, it would have just gone either in one ear and out the other, or it would have been like, I don't understand, but God does. And so you can just.

John Dehlin [02:36:38] Like with your gay brother, basically.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:36:39] Yeah, exactly. It's like I. I didn't even have a shelf. It's not like I was putting things on the shelf. It was just like, I don't get it. But that's okay. God understands and I don't, and that's okay, you know?

John Dehlin [02:36:49] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [02:36:51] I suppose I'm curious a little bit about whether anything relating to you being a woman came up in your trips, because I feel like psychedelics and my femininity or womanness have been like, you know, there's stuff that's there.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:37:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:05] And the alternative to that is patriarchy.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:37:07] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:08] Thoughts on. Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:37:09] Oh, absolutely.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:10] So did it kind of. I don't know, did you have any sort of realizations or like, a shift in how you viewed.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:37:17] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:17] Yourself because of that?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:37:19] Well, first of all, there was this whole idea that a woman's job is to have children, and not only is that her job, but, like, it's what should make her the most happy, you know, of all the things that she's going to do in her life. So the idea that I was just a baby maker, immediately I was like, oh, like, there's. I mean, when I realized that, that was, like, so freeing for Me, I was like, I don't have to feel bad for not wanting children, you know, I mean, obviously I want them now, but, like, at the time, I didn't, you know, so that was, like, a huge one for me. It made me. It made me realize, like, that the view of women in the church is just a role. It's not an actual human being, which I'm sure you guys have talked about a ton. But it's like, I didn't even realize that I wasn't allowed to be who I actually was or to be a whole person. All I was was essentially a.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:20] I

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:38:20] was like, an asset. That's what it felt like, you know, hey, you're here because we need you to fulfill these roles. We need you to do these things for us. You're an asset, you know, you're not an actual human being. So. Definitely,

John Dehlin [02:38:39] yeah. Women are treated like things, like assets. Yeah. Too often, I think. In the world.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:38:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:45] And in Mormonism. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:38:48] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:38:51] Did it change your views on LGBT stuff?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:38:54] I feel like, yes, but. Well, yes, I know. It's interesting because I felt kind of that same way the whole time, that the way that, like, I didn't think that being gay was a sin. I didn't think. I didn't have some of these weird things that I hear people say where they're like, well, being gay is not a sin, but acting on it is, you know, Like, I didn't hold any of those views. I just thought that I didn't understand, but that God did. But I didn't see anything wrong with being gay at all. I wasn't. I wasn't secretly, like, judging them or thinking that they were evil or anything like that. I just very much compartmentalized. But after I left the church, it made me realize how much the church. How much harm the church is doing, which is one thing that I didn't realize before, because they do a very good job at concealing that. So that you think that, like, oh, they're not. They're not that bad for the LGBTQ community. Like, it's just, you know, like, they can still come to church, so you don't really realize the amount of harm that's being done. And so when I. When I left the church, it was like, all of that hit me as well, where I was like, wow, this is so, so, so messed up. So messed up and entirely unnecessary.

Adjusting to Life After Faith Transition and Divorce

John Dehlin [02:40:05] So did you come down with the impulse to want to evangelize? Both psychedelics, but also, church is bad to everyone? And if so, how did you deal with that impulse.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:40:23] Well, I feel like going through the process of transitioning out of the church is very messy, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. You know, I think that I've. I talked to a lot of ex Mormons who kind of have this air of, like, arrogance about them if they're not angry or they're not bitter, as if that somehow is like. Well, I just. Like, they're somehow, you know, they've moved beyond that or whatever. And I feel like that being angry or being bitter is very much part of the process. You know, it's kind of like your anger is saying that your. Your boundaries were violated, and your anger is like, that's not okay, you know, or your anger saying, hey, other people are being harmed, and that's not okay. And so I definitely went through, and still go through a lot of anger, you know, but as far as, like, trying to talk to other people about it, I mean, I think that's pretty much why I initially made my Instagram page, which is how you found me, is because I didn't want to talk to my family and friends about it, because I'd seen my brother go through this process with my parents, where he. He sat and talked to them, you know, over and over and over and over again. And there's. And they were just like, at the end of the day, we're still going to be Mormons. So it's like, I'm not going to say anything to my parents that they haven't already heard. And I knew how I was when I was a Mormon. It's like, people could have told me anything, and I would. It wouldn't have stopped stuck. It would have just completely just, like, went, you know, right off my shoulders. And so I had to find a sort of outlet that I felt like could actually be heard, you know, because a lot of times when you. When you try to convince everyone to think what you think as an ex Mormon, it's like it's falling on deaf ears and it's not doing anything. And it's not. It's. For me, it wasn't actually helping me, but that's just me. You know, everybody has their different way of approaching it.

John Dehlin [02:42:08] So tell us again the name of your personal Instagram account.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:42:13] Stephanie Ann Again. So, like, Stephanie Ann and then again, a n. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:18] Stephanie Ann again.

Samantha Shelley [02:42:21] Yeah. I did not realize you had this account. That's how I followed you on your. Oh, really? Yeah. I'm like, great.

John Dehlin [02:42:26] That's how I found you is through Stephanie Ann again?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:42:29] Yes. Yeah, I had to do Stephanie on again because I have my Steph. My hair and makeup by Steph business page. So it's like, here I am again.

John Dehlin [02:42:38] I love it. Okay, so can I just say, isn't it mindboggling? So you have these lovely parents who we all are going to agree are lovely, who raised, I'm sure, four lovely children. I'm sure your siblings are also lovely. And all four of them who are lovely can leave the church, and it can. Belief can be so entrenched that your parents would have. They poured all their love, all their best wisdom, all their effort, all their knowledge into these four wise, beautiful children. And then they all decide. They wake up, they learn, they live, and they're like, this isn't true. This isn't working for me. Isn't it a testament to how powerful Mormonism is, is that the parents can have all four of their kids leave the church and not even bat an eye?

Samantha Shelley [02:43:35] Yep.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:43:36] Yep. And it's funny, because I would have been the exact same. Like, had I not done psychedelics, I would have been the exact same. I would have been the type that was hearing about all this, like, tax fraud stuff and would have been like, that's probably not accurate. Like, they probably. That's. We don't know if we can really trust those facts, you know, so. And it's like, what's so tricky to me about. I don't even want to call it religious trauma. I feel like it's spiritual trauma because the. The spirituality, the connection to your soul or to, you know, whatever you want to call it. I know that that's what very active Mormons are feeling. I know that that's what they're feeling, and they don't realize that it's being manipulated. And I feel like that type of manipulation is so damaging. It's so damaging. And so it makes sense to me why they're staying, because they're feeling real resonance that has been deeply, deeply, deeply distorted, you know, through a lot of mental conditioning for many generations.

John Dehlin [02:44:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't know till you know. You don't see it till you see it.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:44:41] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:44:42] Yeah. I. I want to. I want to be delicate about how I say this, because the way we kind of set up this, where you said within four months you were divorced and out of the church, it almost made it sound like. Like the divorce was just the mushrooms. And while none of us have any interest in trying to, like, you know, excavate the marriage per se, it is fair to Say that like, maybe. Maybe in some. Definitely for you. But maybe. Maybe your experiences led to some experiences with your ex husband, to where maybe you realize things that you hadn't considered before or saw things differently that you hadn't seen before, or learn things that you didn't know before about yourself or about your relationship, where the mushrooms were a part of that journey. But it wasn't like just you woke up and the mushroom said, leave your husband today.

Samantha Shelley [02:45:46] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:47] You know what I'm saying?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:45:48] Exactly. Yeah, yeah. I mean, when. When you have such a rigid construct of how you've lived your entire life and then you do psychedelics, it's like you realize how that construct is affecting everything in your life, not just your belief system, but it's like your relations with yourself, your relationship with your spouse, your relationship with your children. And so, yeah, it was like it wasn't. Yeah. Like, it just told me, you need to leave your husband. It was like I was realizing all of these dynamics that had been informed by this belief system that actually weren't in alignment for who I actually was.

John Dehlin [02:46:24] Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. So we talked about the whirlwind, the four months from believing faithful, active Mormon mom and wife to out of the church and divorced. You talked about how that was. What was the word you used? A chaos.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:46:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:45] So let's talk about. Well, I guess there's two things I want to talk about is rebuilding your life. But also, you didn't stop with one psychedelic experience.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:46:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:55] So let's talk about the other psychedelic experiences.

Samantha Shelley [02:46:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:58] And then talk about rebuilding your life.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:00] Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:47:01] So that year I. Did you just want to know, like, what I did or when, how much and why?

John Dehlin [02:47:07] Like, oh, you had one great experience. Why didn't you just stop there?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:47:10] Yeah. I mean, you definitely can have these sort of like, heightened states of awareness on psychedelics that make you feel really, really, really good. And I have always considered myself like a. A very spiritual person anyway. And so when, like, the psychedelics were the most spiritual experiences I had ever had, and so I was like, I need more. You know, it was just. I felt like I was just hungry for it in a way. And so I tried several, you know, over the next probably six months, but it was one of those things where I had to learn the hard way that it's not something that you mess around with, and it's not necessarily how it's being marketed in sort of Western society as this. Like, it can be very. It can be too much. It can be too much too quickly for Your brain and for your nervous system. And it can be potentially very traumatic, you know, if you're not cautious about it. At least that was my experience.

John Dehlin [02:48:22] Yeah. And this is something that I'm not an expert to even be talking about. And Samantha, I don't know if you'll be able to talk about this better than me or you. Stephanie. There's a traditional addictive property to things like cocaine and alcohol and meth and heroin where you develop a tolerance. You need more and more to get the same high. And it also changes your neuroreceptors in a way to where it almost kind of numbs your ability to just feel happy and healthy normally, so that you need the drugs to actually just feel normal after a while. So there's all these elements to addictiveness that my understanding with psychedelics generally do not apply. In other words, you don't be. There's never in the world been a mushroom addict.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:49:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:12] There's never been, as I understand it, an LSD addict or a ayahuasca addict. And in some ways I've even heard the term anti addictive in the sense that. Well, there's some people who have one or two experiences and they're done for life. They don't want anymore, even though they may say it was either a great experience or it was a terrifying experience. But I learned a ton. But they don't leave feeling I gotta have it all the time. Now, there's gonna be other people that microdose, which is taking small amounts to treat anxiety or depression with psilocybin specifically, and there's gonna be some people that kind of use it recreationally or that integrate it into kind of a longer term set of health and. Or psychological and or spiritual practices. But generally speaking, I think it's important to stop and make the point point that if you're worried about getting addicted to drugs, and when I talked about that, that sort of gradients of danger or harm, what makes opiates, meth, fentanyl, you know, alcohol, even tobacco, so dangerous for many is the addictive quality. And I think it's important to say that that's not a problem, generally speaking, with psychedelics. Now that's my understanding. Do either of you want to comment on that?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:50:35] No, that's 100% true. Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:38] And Samantha, do you want to.

Samantha Shelley [02:50:39] Yeah. Outside of the fact that obviously you can get addicted to anything. I mean, it's not chemically addictive, but you know, you can be addicted to behaviors or you can. And people can get addicted Sorry, I don't know what the, like the textbook psychological definition of addiction is, but you can become like addicted to the high of excavating your own mind with psychedelics and, you know, you could get like, use it into them potentially, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, well said, John.

John Dehlin [02:51:08] Okay. Okay, so. So you were just looking for further light knowledge in your traditional psychedelic experience.

Subsequent Experiences, Risks, and Ego Death

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:51:16] Yeah, I mean, I had spent so much of my life just having anxiety and depression and then all of a sudden I was like feeling good, you know, and not in. Not good in a way of like, good how you feel when you're, when you smoke weed or you know, when you get drunk, but good in a way where I felt like I was more centered and connected to myself. And so I just was, yeah, like, hungry for more of that.

John Dehlin [02:51:40] Okay. And so I think this is a good point to say that there are dangers and risks with psychedelic experiences in addition to just some people having a bad chemical reaction. You hear about bad trips with lsd. I had people write in and say they had, you know, I think, Margi, when we were doing research ahead of time, if you have schizophrenia, a history of, of schizophrenia in your family, consider not taking psychedelics or being very, very careful if you do. That's one thing we read. There were several people who wrote in and said they were terrified. They had a horrible experience that was rare. Probably like a ratio of like 300 to 1, you know, in terms of. So. But it does happen. So don't think that it's just a default guarantee that if you try any psychedelics, you're going to have a wonderful euphoric, happy experience. You could have an aversive experience and in a worst case experience, you, you, it could, it could lead to some sort of psychosis.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:52:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:42] Although that's rare.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:43] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:52:43] And I, I don't, I don't feel like, I mean, this is getting more into territory where I'm like, I'm not the expert and all I can do is say my own experience and the things that I have learned. Because after I did mushrooms the second time, I, it, it seriously just, it was too much, first of all. And I, I like what I tell myself, what I said to myself at the time is like, I broke my brain. You know, I didn't actually break my brain, but that's what it felt like. And I was in utter hell, you know, for probably at least six months.

John Dehlin [02:53:20] Okay, so you did a second psilocybin experience.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:53:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:24] And that quote broke your brain.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:53:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:26] And was that because you, you did 1.5 grams the first time.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:53:30] I did 1 gram the first time. And the second time she only gave me two and a half, but.

John Dehlin [02:53:33] So you went to two and a half?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:53:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:35] But you're also not, you know, six foot six and 35 pounds.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:53:39] Yeah, but I think that my system, for whatever reason, is very, very sensitive, which I didn't know. I didn't know until it was, like, too late, you know? And so it's one of those things where I feel like psychedelics, in my own opinion, can be very unpredictable. And there's a lot of things that you can do to, like, make sure you like. If I would have had the proper support before beforehand and the proper support after, I think I would have been a lot better off. But I kind of went into it blind. It was too much. And then my. It was almost like my brain couldn't handle what happened. And then I didn't have the proper support after until probably maybe six months later or so when I finally found someone who could help me figure out what happened to me kind of a thing. So integration is huge. Huge.

John Dehlin [02:54:29] And when you say integration for those who have no idea what we're talking about, what does that mean?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:54:32] Yeah, there's like, integration coaches. It's like people who are very well versed and trained in psychedelics, and they specialize in getting you prepared for a psychedelic experience and helping you process afterwards.

John Dehlin [02:54:47] Meaning like a therapist would talk through.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:54:50] Okay, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:52] And you're saying eventually after your second bad trip, we can call it. Yeah, call it a bad trip. Yeah. You were able to find someone that could talk you through what you experienced so that you could derive value from that difficult experience.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:08] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:55:09] It's so complicated. And I feel like, like, the more that I talk about it, the more that I realize that I am, like, the one in a million. You know, I've worked with probably three or four different plant medicine integration coaches, and all of them are just like, yeah, your case is like, worst case. Not worst case scenario, but, like, pretty high up there. Because it wasn't. It wasn't that I necessarily had a bad trip. The trip itself was relatively okay. It was just way too much. And so afterwards is when all hell broke loose. Afterwards, I could not, like, get back in my body. I was, like, dissociating super, super hard. I was like, in and out of, like, a state of psychosis for months where I was just like, I don't know what's real. I don't. And I'm not trying to, like, scare anybody because I Feel like it's good

John Dehlin [02:55:53] for people to know.

Samantha Shelley [02:55:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:54] To be careful.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:55] Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:55:55] It's just.

John Dehlin [02:55:57] So you had a couple months of feeling symptoms of psychosis.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:56:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:01] After your second trip.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:02] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:56:03] And psychosis, I feel like too, is one of those terms that's defined very differently in Western society versus, you know, if you look at it through different lenses. So if I would have gone to like a traditional Western psychologist, they would have been medicated me, you know, but like working with a plant medicine integration coach, they were like, okay, this is what happened to you. This is what's going on with your, you know, your state of awareness. This is what you need to do. Like, this will, this will integrate. It's just going to take time, you know, so that I didn't feel like I'd actually messed up my brain because I don't believe that that happened, you know, I don't believe that mushrooms messed up my brain. It was just like it was too much for my nervous system to process, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [02:56:41] Yeah. Like, I have a friend that tried to do what they call the hero's dose or the heroic dose, which is five grams or more. He said that there was like at least 30 minutes where he wanted to die. Every single minute. And every minute he would say, okay, I'll just try and make it through this minute. And then the minute would go by and then it would be like, okay, I'll just try and make it through this next minute. Like, I can't imagine anything more horrific. Wanting to die on a minute by minute basis for an hour.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:57:10] It's interesting because when people have like really difficult journeys like that, sometimes they can be very, very transformative. But it's just a matter of making sure you have the right containment. You know, it's like if you're in a good place, you know, psychologically, but also like with your container, like your, your, your setting, you know, and all of that. Like, you can go have a bad trip and you can be very transformed, even though it sucks and you're like, oh, this is hell, I want to die. But then you can also have a bad trip where you, it, it causes trauma, meaning it's not just difficult, it's like it's actively traumatizing you. Does that make sense? Which is something that I've had to like, work through since then.

Samantha Shelley [02:57:53] Because if you don't have the tools, because some people come to psychedelics not even having yet developed the tools to navigate regular life, emotions that are difficult, so then to be thrown into, into such an Intense. Yes, version of, you know, way more intense than you'd ever feel in regular life.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:58:10] Exactly. And especially coming from a Mormon lens, it's like the only tools you're given is to pray and read your scriptures, you know, and you're so dissociated from your body without even knowing it. And then all of a sudden, for me, the psychedelics just dropped me into my body and it was just like chaos. It was just, it was utter chaos. But also I don't regret it and I feel like it was the most life changing thing I've ever done, you know, the bad trip, all of it.

John Dehlin [02:58:37] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:58:38] Yeah, okay. I mean, the bad trip, it's like it was horrendous, but I feel like it completely, I guess, like broke me open in a way that probably I would have had to go into it blind, you know, in order to have that much of a transformation. But I definitely don't want to say by any means that, you know, you need trauma in order to heal. You need to go through something traumatic in order to like, you know, break open.

John Dehlin [02:59:08] One of the common outcomes for people that take maybe doser dose dosages on the higher end, they call it an ego death. Do either of you want to describe. Well, one, if you've experienced that and if so, what that means?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [02:59:23] Yeah, I think that everybody kind of has a different perception of what ego death is. I mean, some people do psychedelics and then they come out and they realize that their whole life is a sham and then that's their ego death. You know, it's essentially them realizing that everything that they've done up until that up to that point has been either a coping mechanism or something that was fed to them as that made their sort of Persona and their mental construct. Right. And they come out and they're like, oh my gosh. My whole life I've just been following what people said and I've just been doing, doing this and that this, not, none of that is even who I am, you know, and that's kind of like an ego death for me. Ego death, it's like a very specific, like this is just how it was for me. It's like I actually thought I was going to die, you know, and it's not. I know that other. A lot of people have experienced it this way as well, where you're not like, oh, I'm having an ego death. You're like, no, I'm going to die. Like, if they don't take me to the hospital right now, I'm going to Die. Like something's going on in my body. Something bad happened. I don't know what this is. I'm literally going to die. And then your guide's just there going, surrender. You just gotta die. You just have to die.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:25] Just die.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:00:25] And you're like, you know, and so then you literally, like, let go and you're like, goodbye, children. Like, I was like, I messed it up. I'm dead. I'm never gonna see anyone ever again. And then you, like, surrender into it, and then all of a sudden you're. You're like on the other side of it. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [03:00:43] Like, floating in nothingness?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:00:44] No, you're just. You just realize that, like, the only thing that was holding on was your mind and that there's. There is there. There is no sort of like. I don't know that that type of death was just simply a death of your ego, a death of your constructs, you know? But I don't know. Have you ever experienced it?

Samantha Shelley [03:01:06] Yeah. And sort of like along a spectrum, like, with smaller doses, just kind of a lessening of, you know, buying into the false sense of self or just the masks you wear or just, like, concepts about yourself generally. You know, just like a lessening of concepts about yourself. And. Yeah, I can relate to the thinking like, you're gonna die.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:01:29] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:01:31] Yeah. I suppose that there's so much that could be said about ego death, but I suppose it is just. For me, it was like the thing that facilitates the interconnectedness. Right. And the. The zooming out from yourself and. Yeah, sorry. My brain is so full of answers right now, I don't know what to say. But I think.

John Dehlin [03:01:54] I mean, if I think about Buddhism and Eckhart Tolle and the things that I've learned from an acceptance, commitment, therapy, some of the problems, some of the baggage that we gather psychologically are labels, stories, ways that we interpret the world, our schemas for understanding ourselves and others. So stories, labels, and the way we interpret our emotions and the world around us. And I envision ego death as all of those things falling to the floor and taking away our tendency to evaluate, to name things. Good, bad. I'm this. I'm. I'm a parent, I'm a dad, I'm a Mormon, I'm a. And letting all the labels and stories and schemas fall to the ground and just kind of radical experiencing of oneness or connectedness with something much bigger.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:02:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:56] Once all that falls and.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:02:58] And the getting to the point of where you're able to let go of that, like, have the ego. Death can be very scary for people if they're not used to that. Like, if you're someone who. Which is like me, like, why I actually thought I was going to die. Because if you're not used to surrender and you're kind of someone who lives in a place of a lot of control, you know, you have to let go of control in order to get to that place. And that's very scary for people a lot of the time.

Samantha Shelley [03:03:22] Yeah. Because so many of us, like, only ever experienced ourselves as the ego from when we were young and we had to, like, cultivate that to sort of get by. And so it does feel like you're dying because that. That's the only you that you've known. But then there's like this massive, like, freedom and bliss and, you know, beauty on the other side of it. And it is, like, as simple as surrendering. But your brain will fight so hard.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:03:49] Yeah, it will. It will try really hard to protect you from that because the ego wants to stay alive. You know, it's like, no, this is who we are. Yeah. To the point where, yeah, for me, it was like, oh, no, I'm actually gonna die.

Samantha Shelley [03:04:00] Yeah. And any sort of bad trip I've had has been because of that tension where I'm coming up against that. You know, my mind is like, wanting to surrender, or part of me is because of the psychedelics, but then I'm clinging on because it seems so scary. But I got into psychedelics in tangent with getting into Eckhart Tolle, which I do think helped a lot. And like, having a bit of a foundation of meditation also did help a lot for bad trips because it. You. You kind of know you can because,

John Dehlin [03:04:28] you know, the goal is to let go a lot of that junk. So you. Maybe you're a little bit primed to be willing to. To let go.

Samantha Shelley [03:04:35] Yeah, I think the two work well.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:04:37] It also seems like the.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:39] The body connection of meditation might be helpful because actually, I would imagine amidst the ego death, as you guys are describing it, like a nervous system reaction, like your body is having actually an experience. And I would think, like, breathing, like knowing that you have calmed yourself down before or how you regulate your nervous system, I would think would be really helpful. Is it?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:05:07] Yes. And I didn't have any of that.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:09] Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:05:11] Which I could have used.

John Dehlin [03:05:12] Yeah. Okay. So after a second experience that was more aversive, you didn't stop there either.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:05:22] So I had my second psychedelic. Let me think. So I did my first trip, which was the one that kind of blew the lid off of everything. But the trip itself was pleasant, but it blew the lid off of my life. Then from there, I did a couple more with different plant medicines. There's one called bufo, and then there's another one called combo that I did both of those as well. And then after. And those were. Those were not anything super insane, you know, they were both good experiences. They weren't like, nothing crazy happened. And then was my second mushroom trip. But after my second mushroom trip, I waited probably almost a year, and then I did ayahuasca.

John Dehlin [03:06:06] And, like, for those who don't know anything about that, why ayahuasca?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:06:12] So they say. They say the mushrooms are like the ninos, and the. The ayahuasca is the grandmother, you know,

John Dehlin [03:06:20] so grand grandchildren versus grandma.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:06:22] Yeah. Or maybe. Yeah, I'm. Isn't that what they say? I think the mushrooms are the ninos. At least that's what I've heard.

John Dehlin [03:06:27] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:06:27] And so it's basically a way of saying, like, the mushrooms are very gentle and the grandmother is like a stern grandmother that's gonna, like, whip you into shape, you know? And so I wanted to try ayahuasca because, I don't know, it's one of those things where you kind of. At least for me, I was feeling really called to it, and I was really petrified. But I was like, I don't know why. I just feel like I need to do this, even though I was scared to death. And so then that's why I did it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:58] And when I think about ayahuasca, I think of South America, Peru, or Costa Rica, and I think of throwing up. Those are the things that I think of.

Samantha Shelley [03:07:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:07] Is that right?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:07:08] I mean, they. They have ayahuasca or they do. I know they have, like, retreat centers and stuff in Mexico as well, and I'm sure lots of other places. I mean, I went to Texas, you know, and there's an ayahuasca church here in Utah, too.

John Dehlin [03:07:25] And yes, I did, but kind of originating.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:07:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah. As far as I know, but I'm not an expert.

John Dehlin [03:07:31] Yeah. And you. What would you say you did throw up? Oh, you did throw up.

Samantha Shelley [03:07:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:35] And so again, someone would say, why would you ever want to do anything that would make you throw up?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:07:39] Yeah, it's. It's one of those things that's really hard to describe until you've done it. You know, it's like the most beautiful and painful thing that you can ever experience. You know, if it's if it's done the right way and in the right container and you have the right switch support, it's so difficult, but you come out feeling like you're just like never the same, you know, I just, it's really hard, hard to explain. It's very transformative and it's, it's healing people and helping people for a reason, you know?

Critical Questions About Psychedelics and Lasting Change

John Dehlin [03:08:07] Yeah, okay, let's go there. Because this isn't my biggest critique. It's my biggest question about psychedelics. Having never really never having never had a psychedelic experience one time when I was feeling clever because I've met thousands of people that say it changed their life. But if you knew these people before and then you know them during and then you know them after, sometimes you can go, wow, they really are different. And sometimes you can go, I really don't notice any difference. And sometimes you can say, wow, their life's a big mess. Right. So it's hard as just an observer to really kind of assess how much their life has actually changed versus kind of the cute little saying I, I thought of at one time was what if all psychedelics do is give you the feeling that you've had a life changing experience without actually changing your life. But they just, they're the things that trip the neuroreceptors that make you feel like your life has been changed and you really believe it and you cry when you talk about your experiences and you go to the grave saying, I was never the same, but everyone around you is like, same person, same pain in the rear. You know what I mean?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:09:22] Yeah, totally.

Samantha Shelley [03:09:22] Would that not still be worth it if your internal experience of life was better or.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:09:27] That's what I was going to say. I feel like it's more of an internal thing. I mean, a lot of people can make really huge, profound changes externally as well.

Margi Dehlin [03:09:36] But.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:09:37] And, and I want to add too that it's not like the psychedelics are, in my opinion, this sort of like fix all, you know, you can do psychedelics and be a terrible human being, you know, it's not like this thing that's going to make you some sort of. And it can still be life changing and transformative for you internally, but then you can still be a horrible person, you know. So, yeah, I mean, I think regardless of where your life goes, I don't think I've met anybody who would, who would say that they weren't the same after, you know, no matter what that looks like externally.

John Dehlin [03:10:12] Yeah, because I'm thinking about like, let's just say I want to try psychedelics someday. Right. Well, if I could feel better all the time, and it could have a lasting impact on just how I feel about myself and how I feel about the world and make me more emotionally connected, and it's just about me feeling better, well, that's worth it. Absolutely. If I could just feel better in the long term, that's good. What's more important to me is I would do it. If I could know I'd come out a better husband to Margi, a better parent to my kids, a better boss. Like, I have a friend who I worked with, who's who once they tried psychedelics. They said, I don't want you as a boss anymore because I don't want to have any boss who hasn't had a psychedelic experience that I felt discriminated against, you know? But I think the point was it'll make you compassionate and connected and loving and empathetic in a way you're not, but in a way that would make me want to work with you much more. And so I guess I'm saying yes, if I can be a better husband, dad, boss, podcaster, human, then I totally want to do it. Right.

Samantha Shelley [03:11:28] Yeah. And I think the fact that you have those intentions probably makes it highly likely that that will be the case. But. But it's not perfectly controllable. Like, you might do psychedelics and then realize, like, you don't want to do a podcast anymore, but you're a better. All the other things. Like what? You know, maybe the podcast one doesn't. Doesn't happen. I'm just, like, theorizing, like, you can't perfectly predict, but I think, like, the. If you're the sort of baseline things that you want of just becoming more compassionate and connected to the people in your life, I feel like that's reasonable to think that, like, that probably will happen for you, or at least it won't be an. It won't do a disservice. It won't. You know, it's worse is what I just. I think in terms of, like, connecting to the people you love, I. It seems highly likely that it would improve it. But I think when you're talking about things that are maybe not as fundamental, like the podcast, like, that's. That's quite different from, like, your children, for example, you know, because that is not as essential as, like, you are a dad through and through. Whatever happens, you are not a podcaster through. You know, you might have awakenings on psychedelics that make you think, you know, you want to take five years off work, you know, who knows?

John Dehlin [03:12:43] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:12:44] I think too, it's such a personal decision, you know, like me going to psychedelics for my anxiety. It's like I got way more than I bargained for. But, you know, there, I guess what I'm saying is there, even though we want a formula of, like, this is what I'm going to get out of it, or this is what's going to

Samantha Shelley [03:13:05] happen, that's what they did to Jesus and look what happened. Now you have this podcast. 20 years.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:13:08] Yeah, there's. There's really no way of knowing. And so it's like, if you feel like you want to, then you gotta. You gotta follow that, you know, Even if there are no guarantees of anything.

Samantha Shelley [03:13:18] Yeah, there is a. Is a leap of faith. Like, there is a bit of bravery involved, but it's also like, you don't know what future John is gonna. So what to you might seem horrifying. Like, let's just go with this one. Let's just say you have an experience that tells you, like, stop working. That to you right now might seem terrible because you don't know what the John that has felt the need for that will feel like. And so it's not. You're never going to be able to accurately predict, like, things that. Again, like, with, you know, to me leaving finding out that Mormonism wasn't true was the absolute worst thing I could possibly imagine. And now I'm like, it was the best thing that could have possibly happened, you know? Yeah, you don't know till you know. I feel like. Sorry.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:13:59] No, you go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [03:14:00] Just in general, if your intentions are good and you're. You're a good person, naturally, then I just think with that foundation, it will probably be good.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:14:09] Yeah. And I just want to add too, that me and Sam are. Are literally just speaking from our own personal experiences. Like, we're not. I'm. We're not integration coaches. We don't. I don't know things. I feel like I shouldn't be speaking for plant medicine at all because I'm like, all I know is what I know. And so it's one of those things where it's like, research it for yourself, see how you feel, you know, and. And, you know, follow that.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:33] I'm so glad you said that. I do think that's so important. I was going to ask you bring. Because I feel like now we're on something that I have read a bit about with regard to intention. How would you talk about the role of intention in your Process, maybe with each and how you think about, like, I feel like, Samantha, you did a really great job of talking about that a minute ago too, but if you have anything more to say, but like, what is the role of intention and

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:15:02] how did it play out for you?

Margi Dehlin [03:15:03] You and what. How do you hold it kind of now?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:15:06] Yeah, I have mixed feelings about this too, because I know people who have done psychedelics recreationally with no intention at all, who come out and they're completely changed me.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:15] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:15:16] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:15:16] So I think there's some things that are just out of our control, honestly. But I also feel like setting a good. Like having good intentions, I feel like definitely does help because you're already trying to connect with yourself. You're already trying to connect with something of value and of importance, you know, and something real. And it's like, that's not gonna hurt by any means, but I don't know that it necessarily has to be that way.

Samantha Shelley [03:15:43] Yeah, I think if there's something you're stuck on, you could. You could just bring that, you know, like they say to bring your questions to general conference. You could bring that with you. And it, you know, there's. There's a chance, a. A decent chance that zooming out from your ego a bit is going to help you maybe evaluate things more objectively. And yeah, it doesn't hurt to set an intention as it might not go that way. You might be taken on a different sort of journey.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:16:08] But yeah, I'm hearing, like, hold it loosely.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:11] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:16:11] And especially if you're doing. Because I like to just do micro doses. I feel like a little micro dose with a question you're wondering about in your life or something you're stuck on. I feel like that compare really nicely.

John Dehlin [03:16:20] How many grams?

Samantha Shelley [03:16:22] 0.3. Let's just say.

John Dehlin [03:16:24] Okay. Okay. So, Stephanie, go back to your experience. So you were no longer a wife, but you still had your relationship with yourself. And then you still had three children, and then you were still a daughter and a sister and a human and a hairstylist. How did. If you had to guess how the people around you have experienced you since your psychedelic experiences, have they given you feedback? Would they say you've changed? Would they say they've noticed the difference? And it. Not that you need their validation, because that's part of the whole point. But would you say that those around you have observed differences?

Relationships After Leaving Mormonism

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:17:07] I mean, probably just in the traditional Mormon to ex Mormon way, where most people, either. Most people that I'm still close with who are Mormon just accept me for how I am, and they feel like they just support me in my path. And those who I'm not super close with probably think I'm absolutely insane.

John Dehlin [03:17:27] So a bunch of people around you are like, she's on drugs. She's gone crazy.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:17:31] I'm sure. I mean, I don't know really. I know a few people that think that, but I. I'm not sure how many probably more than are saying,

John Dehlin [03:17:39] well, are you saying there's no one around you that's like, wow, I've really noticed the difference. You're kinder, you're more gentle, you're more loving, you're more. You're less anxious, you're less depressed.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:17:47] Like, only with the people who I know who are ex Mormons, I think that Mormons. It's not that I have bad relationships with them, but we don't really. I probably just seem the same. I probably just seem the same to them.

Samantha Shelley [03:18:00] You seem like you've been very nice always, based on what I know about you. Like, you don't seem like someone who had to do psychedelics to develop empathy.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:18:08] Yeah, yeah. No, I feel like my. My relationships in that way have kind of. Yeah. Stayed the same. And people. People ask, you know, like, how are you feeling? Like, how's your anxiety? How's this and how's that? But I don't know that it's something that they would notice at least yet on the surface. But I have had people, you know, in the ex Mormon community and people, like mentors and stuff that I've worked with that have noticed, well, how.

John Dehlin [03:18:32] How have your anxiety and depressive symptoms been? Because that was the main reason.

Margi Dehlin [03:18:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:18:37] You went on this journey.

Margi Dehlin [03:18:38] It's like your relationship with yourself.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:18:39] Yeah. How is that, man?

Margi Dehlin [03:18:41] It's such a.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:18:42] It's such an interesting question to answer because I think everybody wants to hear just like, oh, you feel better, you know, like that you're. You're fixed. You know, we love the fix it. Yeah, we love the fix it. But I think my path has been so tumultuous for a reason. To show me that tumultuous is not dangerous per se. And it's. It's kind of the way that it's all unfolded for me has given me a greater capacity to hold the. The things that I don't want to hold. So it's like I'm still scared all the time, but I feel like now I can see it for what it is. I'm like, oh, okay, this is what my mind is doing. This is what my nervous System is doing this is what this is. And blah, blah, blah, blah. And, and so I can hold myself through it so I'm not absolutely just losing my mind. And then on days where I do feel depressed or I do feel down or whatever, I can see it and I can hold it and have empathy for myself in that way. Whereas before you're very blended with your emotional states. There's no separation between your emotion and you. And so you're just in it and you're flailing, you know. And now it's like, okay, I can feel these things and also maintain a sense of myself and centeredness and a sense that things are okay. That was one thing. It's like when, when I felt like things were not okay before, I really was just like, things are not okay. And now I'm like, things are not okay, but it's also okay that things aren't okay, you know?

Margi Dehlin [03:20:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:09] What strikes me as psychologically sound about that? Just as someone with the training in psychology and who studied Eckhart Tollean Buddhism. Buddhism starts with the premise that life is suffering because it's healthy to view life that way. So the goal isn't to always be happy. No one is going to always be happy, ever. Doesn't matter what religion or psychedelic experience you're a part of. Life contains suffering. The question number one is do you learn to accept that suffering and there's liberation. And this is also heavily borrowed from Noah Rashida's secular Buddhism, which I highly recommend. Learning to accept the suffering in life can help keep you from adding additional pain and suffering on top of the suffering that life is always going to dish unto you. That's one. So acceptance is huge. It sounds like it's helped you with the acceptance of the suffering that life brings you as one. Is that true?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:21:08] Yeah. And it's not only acceptance, but just a deep core belief that everything actually is okay. You know, like existentially. I think Mormonism really kind of freaked me out that, that existentially you could be unsafe. Like there's a chance that you might die and experience eternal damnation, you know, or torment or whatever. And so it's like not only am, am I now able to accept the, the low moments, but I don't fear that something's actually wrong, you know, I don't fear that I'm somehow unsafe, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [03:21:40] Yeah. The second thing I'm hearing that's very psychologically sound, not to evaluate you or judge you, but just, I just have to share what sounds good to me. It's it's learning to separate your awareness from the thoughts and the feelings and the emotions and the stories and the labels that surround you, because that's also suffering. And, and so when, when Buddhism or acceptance, commitment, therapy or meditation center you on present moment, mindfulness and. Or meditation, the idea is to learn to be the observer of your thoughts, even in a non evaluative way. To be the observer of your thoughts, the observer of your emotions, but to hold them loosely and to let them even come and go without infusing or imbuing onto them more meaning and significance than the fact that they're literally just words or even just sounds that got strung together. Like, what are stories but sentences? What are sentences there but words? What are words there but letters? What are letters there but sounds? And we imbue all this meaning when reality, you know, it's, it's all story, like you said.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:22:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:54] And so it sounds like that's another huge healthy takeaway.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:22:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:57] From your psychedelic experience.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:22:58] Yes. And you know what's so interesting is, is I feel like Mormonism is kind of like this idea of like, at least for me, holding myself up, up, up, up, up in these states of only feeling how I want to feel. But then as I've, you know, gone into like absolute, just chaos and torment and hell and, and all of this other stuff that I was avoiding for so long, it's given me the ability to accept those things. And then when that happens, when you realize that there's not actually anything to be afraid of in that way that you can hold both. You can hold the happiness and the joy and the depression and the anxiety, like you can do that. There comes something that's so much deeper than just happiness, you know, and, and it, in a strange way, it is happiness. It's like this weird sort of like deep inner contentment that I've never had, ever. Where it was like for the first time in my life, I'm like. I don't feel like I wish I was somewhere else. I don't feel like I wish I was doing something else. I don't feel like something's missing. I feel like it's wholeness, it's all here and I'm able to hold all of it. I'm not running from anything, I'm not chasing anything. I have space for all of it. And that gives you like this deep sense of safety and peace and contentment that I had never had before. And I would take that over happiness any day. And. But it is, it is somehow like I Am happier, you know, but it's not in the traditional way that you would define happiness, if that makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [03:24:30] Yes. I love the way you're describing it because it's reminding me almost of like, what you're saying on. I don't know, are you saying kind

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:24:37] of you're a large. You're larger.

Margi Dehlin [03:24:40] You now have a large enough container and you. You kind of now have experience of that terrain. Enough to know. I can hold it.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:24:50] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [03:24:50] I can hold it. And that. Is that where the contentment comes of this?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:24:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:24:54] It's almost like from those experiences now of like, I know what it means. I know what it means to suffer. And I can hold that with the joy.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:25:02] Yeah. And. And that, like, I had never. I'd always been running from something. You know, when you're. When you're trying to hold yourself in a very specific emotional state, like when you're in the church, you're always avoiding either yourself and the things that make you feel shame or you're avoiding the things that you're afraid of, you know? And now, now it was just like I. I felt so much more expanded, like you were saying. It's like, okay, like, this is. This is all okay. And it was. Yeah, it's just like this deeper sense of contentment. And I feel like it's also opened my heart more to reality. Kind of like we were saying where all of a sudden everything becomes God. It's like, oh, my gosh. It's not that God is only these things. God is also in all of the garbage, you know, and it's like that can be found there too. It's not Satan. It's not. It's not the devil that's making me depressed. You know, it's like there's beauty that can be found in all of it.

John Dehlin [03:26:04] Yeah. Okay. So that sounds. That sounds sound from a psychological standpoint, the lessons you seem to have derived. So I love. I'm loving hearing that. You mentioned something interesting during our lunch break, which was that, so you, You. You had your first psychedelic experience as an orthodox, active believing Mormon. So first of all, apparently active, faithful believing Mormons are doing psychedelics. It's not just you. It's kind of a thing. Can you talk about that? Because I would just. You would not think. I know in my upbringing that along the Utah Wasatch front, Mormon moms and dads who are believing and faithful are going on psychedelic trips. Talk about that.

Mormons and Psychedelics: A Growing Trend

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:26:57] I know. It kind of is mind blowing.

John Dehlin [03:26:59] Is that true?

Margi Dehlin [03:27:00] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:27:00] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:27:01] Like, it's like it's common.

Samantha Shelley [03:27:02] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:27:03] I feel like it just goes to show you the power of narrative, because the narrative in the mean, in the media is changing around psychedelics to the point where people can be actively Mormon and feel okay about it because of the way it's being presented. And that's the difference. It's like, before it was like, this is an illegal drug. You know, this is dangerous. It's going to scramble your brain and whatnot. And so people were completely closed off to it, but now it's being presented as medicinal, as healing, as something that can be helpful in your psychological health, you know? And so that narrative has shifted so much in a way that people are like, okay, I want to try this, but.

John Dehlin [03:27:43] But, like, so, like, this is a little bit hard for my brain to wrap around because, like, I'm 53, one of the world's most infamous ex Mormons, and I still haven't tried beer. And what I mean is, like, when I was Mormon, I really wasn't trying beer because the church said not to. So, like, in my brand of Mormonism, that's still obviously impacting me. If the church says, don't, you just don't. So how are people feeling? I mean, I guess there have been criticisms of the Word of Wisdom Doctrine and covenants, section 89, where it's like, I wish it'd be updated because it forbids all this stuff that's really not unhealthy. Right. Like tea or coffee, for example. And so people wish it would be updated. I guess one of the benefits of an outdated Word of Wisdom is Joseph didn't envision psilocybin or ayahuasca maybe explicitly or didn't see it as a problem. But either way, because it's not named, the church doesn't have a formal position on it. Other than his position on psychedelics.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:28:46] Yeah, other than it's illegal. But it's like, if it were legal, would that all. Yeah. Does it. Does that even fall under the Word of Wisdom if it was legal? I mean, I feel like. I feel like two things are probably happening with Mormons that are doing psychedelics. It's either Mormons who are more of, like, the apologists, who are like, not, you know, maybe not maybe, or not TBMs and that are a little bit more relaxed about things. They're probably trying psychedelics. And then I think it's people who are desperate, which is where I was at, where they're, like, severely struggling with whatever it may be. They've tried all the medications, they've Tried all the things, and they're hearing about this now, and so they're going to it for that reason, because it's a

John Dehlin [03:29:26] known thing that there's an opiate addiction problem in Utah along the Wasatch front. Some of that's probably chronic pain. Some of it's probably just the numbing of psychological distress and perfectionism and pain. And if that's the case and the church knows that there's an opiate addiction problem along the Wasatch front, it is incumbent upon them to say there are better alternatives to opiates that you should try. And by the way, SSRIs can be fine. They can really be helpful to people. But there's some people who they don't help or they sometimes make things worse or the side effects are so awful. Like, we. I. Part of my motivation for being. Wanting to do this story and to talk about this stuff is because we need. We need to try new things because the mental health. There's a mental health crisis right now, not just with adults, but with youth. Depression and anxiety and even suicidality are kind of out of control. And we need to become more creative and open to things that might be solutions. Right.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:30:33] Yeah, I agree. I mean, I would. I would be shocked if the church doesn't come out with some sort of stance about psychedelics eventually. If they continue to grow in popularity,

Samantha Shelley [03:30:45] though, I could also see them just not because then they don't have to specifically okay it or, you know.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:30:52] Yeah, exactly.

Samantha Shelley [03:30:53] I wonder, like, how they're scaling back the Strength of Youth pamphlet to be like, we're not saying you can get tattoos, but, like.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:30:59] But we're not saying you can't.

Samantha Shelley [03:31:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it would be.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:31:02] I wonder if they knew, you know, the ratio of people who did psychedelics and then left the church, if they would make a stance.

John Dehlin [03:31:10] Right. Yeah. Well, a couple things I want to say there. One is that Utah, just this past legislative session that ended a couple weeks ago, they value, you know, psychedelics and. Or psilocybin bill was evaluated for medical purposes, and it didn't pass this year. But the people that I talked to who are kind of lobbyists working the bill say that within the next year or two, they think there's a decent likelihood. And of course, what kills any legislation in Utah? The Mormon Church. So the Mormon Church killed at this time, most likely. But they're saying that in a few. In a year or two, there might be a decent chance of medicinal psilocybin being approved in Utah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:31:52] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:31:52] Goodyear and as the there is a federal kind of what would movement kind of going on with more research and more within mental health. Right?

John Dehlin [03:32:03] Yeah. So when you watch Fantastic Fungi or read how to Change youe Mind by Michael Pollan, you'll learn that the Johns Hopkins University and other major R1 Division 1 universities are in advanced trials of various forms of psychedelics, whether it's mdma, psilocybin, lsd, all of these different types for things like anxiety, depression, PTSD, PTSD, etc.

Margi Dehlin [03:32:31] Worked in conjunction with a therapist is what I understand kind of right now. But I imagine that that might help things along eventually if it starts becoming accepted kind of.

John Dehlin [03:32:43] Well, once it gets decriminalized on a federal level, that's, you know, because you don't hear about people getting arrested these days for mushroom possession or mushroom usage at all. I don't even hear for cannabis these days. I mean, so, I mean, so many drugs are being decriminalized. So anyway, so that's one thing is that Utah is in the process. It may take a few years, but Utah is in the process of eventually approving medicinal psychedelics. Second thing is, is, you know, you talked about the church doing like, how many people leave the church when taking psychedelics, Like Stephanie versus stay in the church when taking psychedelics. You said that, you know, people who had psychedelic experiences as active, faithful, believing Mormons and it even strengthened their beliefs or made them stay in the church. Is that right?

Samantha Shelley [03:33:35] Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:33:37] Because I mean, like I said, and once again, I. I feel like there's going to be like some real psychedelic experts who are gonna listen to this and be like, this girl has no idea what she's saying. But from my own understanding, psychedelics can also amplify what's already there. So it can sort of cause like an ego inflation where you become more solidified in your ego rather than peeling things away, you know, And I don't. I don't feel like that happens often, at least from what I understand. And most people I know who have been Mormon and done psychedelics have since sort of like deconstructed and like, looked at things. And overall I feel like the narrative that I've heard has been mostly really like, healing in that way. But it's one of those things again where it's like anything is possible, you know?

John Dehlin [03:34:23] Okay, yeah. So I guess the church is going to have to do one of its studies. Hey, members who are active and faithful, have you tried psychedelics? If so, did it strengthen your faith or weaken your faith? And that's probably how the prophets will decide how to implement psychedelics policy.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:34:40] That seems like a very strange conversation for Rusty Nelson to be having.

John Dehlin [03:34:45] I guarantee they're doing that.

Samantha Shelley [03:34:46] Yeah, I'm sure they are.

John Dehlin [03:34:47] Or if they aren't, they. They will be soon, I'm sure. Okay, okay. So, okay. 1. Talking about religion, there is one criticism I have a little bit. I probably have two criticisms of all the people that I've interacted with around psychedelics. One is that they can become as zealous, kind of as missionary, like as the most amped up, you know, Adderall taking Mormon missionary I've ever met.

Samantha Shelley [03:35:16] This is feeling personal on many levels.

John Dehlin [03:35:19] I mean, and I don't mean it in a mean spirited way, but like, most of my friends who have had psychedelic experiences, that's all they want to talk about. They want to talk about it with you. They want to find out why you haven't done it yet. They want to encourage you to do it. And it's just like, oh my gosh, this must be what it's like to have a Mormon missionary knock at your door. You know what I mean? So, like, and you don't either of you need to answer that, other than I just assume that when you've experienced something really wonderful, you want to share it.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:35:46] Yeah, I think, Yeah, I think everybody kind of goes through that phase initially where they're like, oh my gosh, like, this is wild, you know, and they kind of want to like, yeah, you want to spread the joy to, you know, But I think that, you know, if you, if you maintain a healthy perspective, you always hold the belief that you don't ever know what somebody else needs, you know, and that there's definitely not a one size fits all. Even with psychedelics. I mean, especially with psychedelics. It's something that I would never push on someone else because I know firsthand how the experiences can be so varied. Mm.

Margi Dehlin [03:36:21] That's so important.

John Dehlin [03:36:22] Okay, okay. The. The other, the only other criticism that I think I have is when I talk to friends who talk about psychedelic use, sometimes there's a very strong religious flavor to how they talk about it. They talk about the. The plant medicine, they talk about the wisdom of the plant medicine. And they'll say things like, the, the plant knows you. The plant will give you what you need. And they start to almost imbue into a mushroom or some cactus juice or whatever it is, like divine powers of knowledge and omniscience and the ability to not only diagnose what your challenges are, but then arrive in its chemicals in just the right form to heal you. And I'm just like, this feels a lot like church.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:37:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:37:14] And you know, is it sacred, you know, wisdom, or is it like food?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:37:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:37:21] You know what I'm saying?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:37:22] I feel like it totally depends. Well, first of all, I want you to ask this question again after you've done psychedelics. And I feel like it depends on the, once again, the lens you're using because, you know, having the perspective that the, the plants contain wisdom or their own intelligence, that could be considered very new age. But it could, it, it's also very indigenous, which is the type of sort of lineage and the wisdom that's been, you know, around for thousands and thousands and thousands of years. But it's not something that has to resonate with you. You know, it's like if you love the idea that you're connecting with the plant and that it's teaching you things and whatever, then that's beautiful, like, hold that narrative. But if you hate that idea, then fully take like a psychological sort of like approach to your own consciousness, your own psyche. What am I opening up to in myself? How is this, you know, affecting my relationship with the self rather than necessarily having to take that more spiritual lens to it, which I feel like I could see how a lot of ex Mormons would be really put off by that idea.

Samantha Shelley [03:38:28] And also sometimes it's just language like that there are, there's language that people will use that to an outsider might sound really woo woo, that maybe if you actually ask this person to sort of break it down, it maybe isn't as woo woo as you think. You know, like they've shown that mushrooms do possess various kinds of intelligence. That is, you know, surprising. And I don't know, I just think. Yeah, but I'm saying just, you don't need to get too hung up on

Margi Dehlin [03:39:00] language.

Samantha Shelley [03:39:01] People. Yeah, the people who are advocating or the language they use, because again, it is just so personal and it's just,

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:39:08] and I feel way you like to

Samantha Shelley [03:39:09] talk or conceptualize things, it's almost like

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:39:11] they're all kind of describing the same things, but it's kind of being projected through their own lens.

Samantha Shelley [03:39:16] And people can get religious about it, you know, and, and like, my opinion might be that it would be good for them to have a little extra dose of skepticism there or like have a bit more of a sense of humor about it or like maybe hold something a bit more lightly. But at the end of the day, people's people are just doing what they can you know. Yeah, there's always going to be personalities that are going to be more intense or.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:39:40] I feel like I was very much in that position that you're in when I started going to my integration coaches because I was like, I don't want you talking to me about spirits. I don't want you talking to me about some sort of divinity and all this like. No. And so the two people that I worked with primarily were both Jungian psychology based and so their perspective was all about the self. It was like, okay, this is about the psyche. This is about, about symbolism. This is about what you're being opened up to in your own consciousness and your own awareness. And that very much resonated with me because it felt spiritual, but not in relation to anything else. It was just like my own relationship to myself. So you might like that.

John Dehlin [03:40:23] Yeah, well, I, when I express my criticisms, it's not from a place of judgment or mean spiritedness. It's just to say some, some things. I, I guess I think I, if I have any trauma, I think I probably have some religious trauma or some trauma coming out of my religious experience with Mormonism. As much as I love and have loved and I'm grateful for so much of my experiences, I think I have some spiritual or religious trauma. And so anything that even smells a little bit like that kind of triggers me if I. Some people don't like that trigger language. But it's just like it's a, it's a no. It's an immediate no.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:41:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:41:04] As soon as I feel anything superstitious or woo.

Samantha Shelley [03:41:07] That's exactly how I felt.

John Dehlin [03:41:09] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:41:09] Like becoming, getting into psychedelics.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:41:11] Yeah. And I don't think there's anything like necessarily wrong with that. It's just like I feel like your skepticism is a part of your intuition. It's like that doesn't feel good. There was abuse there before. I'm not gonna, I'm not, I'm. Stay away from that. But I do think it's nice that you can choose a different lens or a different narrative around the psychedelics. One that feels more in alignment with you. You know, you don't have to go find someone who's gonna like, you know, put some crystals on you and stuff like that and connect you with Jesus. You know, you can find someone who's gonna be like, okay, let's take a look at your psyche and see what's showing up for you symbolically.

Samantha Shelley [03:41:45] And it's a healthy foundation on which to do psychedelics potentially like that. Skepticism, you know, I agree with that.

John Dehlin [03:41:52] Mm. Okay. Okay. Now I'm dying to know. You talked to us about your idyllic childhood and adolescence and even young adulthood, and that now, looking back, you see problems with it. Now, of course, you love your parents and still value them, but now I'm dying to know, like, what wasn't. Now that you're looking back with new eyes, what was problematic about your upbringing that now you've kind of teased out?

Recontextualizing a Mormon Upbringing

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:42:22] Yeah. So what I can see now is from my own perspective, a healthy way to raise a child is to give them a safe container to explore who they are and explore the world. So they need to, like, this is how I'm with my own kids now. It's like, give them the freedom to think and feel and be whatever they are and to be able to have a safe space to. To come back to you and. And process and develop healthy coping skills with whatever it is that they're experiencing. Because when you feed specific beliefs to your children about the world, when you. Like, when you're a child, you don't have any. You can't conceptualize what that means.

Margi Dehlin [03:43:08] All.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:43:08] It becomes truth to you. It becomes truth immediately. And because you're trusting your caregivers, I mean, that's literally how you're orienting yourself to the world. Okay, this must be truth. Yeah, this is truth. And so that literally just goes straight into your, like, unconscious. It goes into your, like, nervous system. And so you never are given the opportunity to, like, you're never asked, well, what do you think? What do you feel? What do you feel in your body? What feels right to you? So it's like, when my kids will ask me about spirituality now, I'll be like, well, this is what I think. But other people. People say this. Some people say that. Some people say this. What do you think? And they'll be very curious. Well, I don't know. That doesn't make sense because of this, and I feel this way and that and that. And then it's just very fluid and flexible so that they have the opportunity to connect to their own innate knowing because they're being taught how to feel what feels right and what they're connecting with and what they're not connecting with. And that's my biggest. My biggest thing with Mormonism is just the complete disconnection from your body, complete disconnection from your own. Trust in yourself. Trust in yourself. You know, it's just like everything comes from outside of you. All your answers come from outside of you. And you. You disconnect from your Center. And it's like, no wonder people have so much anxiety and depression in Utah. You know, they. They have been fed this. This information that they've been told is truth that has completely dissociated them from their actual core centered self, and they can't even see it. And so it's manifesting in all of these psychological ailments. That was a long answer.

Samantha Shelley [03:44:54] So well said. Are you going to make that a TikTok?

John Dehlin [03:44:56] It's red. It's red, bold and underlined.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:45:01] So that was one. I mean, that was a huge one. That's a big one.

Samantha Shelley [03:45:04] Yeah, to name one.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:45:05] To name one. But that fundamentally underlies all of Mormonism. You know, just the idea that you need to give your children the truth and how people don't even realize how harmful that is. You know, and kids are growing up feeling like they can't verbalize, but something is not feeling right inside of them. And so they're, you know, they're having, you know, like kids are feeling suicidal, like younger and younger and younger because they don't. They're not ever taught safety in the body. You know, they feel just so disconnected from themselves. And I feel like that is the. At least in my own personal experience, the biggest issue with mental health, things that we're struggling with, is people's disconnection from themselves. You know, 100%, that was totally mine. You know, it was like, I thought it was just my brain, but it's like, oh, no, no. I've been completely dissociating for my whole life in order to uphold this belief system that I was given.

Samantha Shelley [03:46:05] And you don't even know how to reconnect or go still. You don't know how to sit in silence with yourself for 10 minutes. Like, I couldn't.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:46:12] Yeah, exactly.

Samantha Shelley [03:46:12] And I had to take psychedelic drugs to cultivate that ability. Not that you can't do outside of that.

Margi Dehlin [03:46:17] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:46:17] And just. Even just the idea that, you know, like the Mormon way of thinking is so black and white and they feed you these truths that you can really, really hold onto because they feed them to you as things that they know are true. You know, that's a big thing in testimony meeting. Like, I know that this is true. I know. Whatever. And how it feels so good at the time. It feels so good to know, to have answers, but how incredibly unhealthy that is because once again, you're never forced to live in the unknown with the rest of the world. And living in the unknown is really where you develop that sort of inner resilience. And that inner trust in your own guidance system. So you can be like, I don't know exactly, but I know I'm gonna be okay. You know. Instead you're fed all these things and you're like, I can hold onto these for dear life so that I don't have to hold onto myself. I don't have to trust in myself because I can't trust in myself. Because that's what you're taught, you know.

Samantha Shelley [03:47:20] And you almost learn that curiosity is not safe. So then you don't move through the world with curiosity. And so then you don't experience as much awe and wonder. And then you have to go back to this organized religion to experience these states of awe and wonder that you could find just like looking up at like a close up of a leaf as you walk past it. But you don't even have. Your mind isn't even. Your mind is too cluttered to even be like, I wonder what that looks like up close. And just to like stop on your walk and bend down and see. Like you just don't think like that.

Margi Dehlin [03:47:48] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:47:48] Because it's like, what would it. There's no benefit to me or it doesn't serve these concepts that everything in my life is supposed to be serving.

Margi Dehlin [03:47:56] Yeah, it reminds me of kind of that. The idea that when you have. You're taught to value answers and like the known. It reminds me a little bit of Eckhart Tolle when he talks about like what would you think of a flower without knowing it was a flower without

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:48:12] the label of a flower.

Margi Dehlin [03:48:13] If you saw a tree without knowing, like there's some. Something happens when you don't have that label. And that reminds me a little bit of what you're describing. It's like when everything is just known. Like, here's the answer. Here's the answer. It's like the world dies a little bit. You know what I mean? It's like there's something, an aliveness to it, a wonder, like you were saying. And awe is like lost in the known. There's something. You know.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:48:41] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [03:48:41] It literally, it feels like it dies a little.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:48:43] It does. It feels like it. It becomes unalive. It. Yeah, it dies. It's not alive. And it becomes something stagnant.

Samantha Shelley [03:48:51] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:48:51] It becomes something not real. Yeah, I totally agree.

Samantha Shelley [03:48:57] It's funny how people often experience colors becoming brighter on psychedelics because I just think, is it just that that's the color that they are? I guess maybe there is no constant color of things, but yeah, I feel

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:49:10] like Another thing that was super, super unhealthy, looking back on it was just the whole idea that you are supposed to be in a certain place and that life isn't for exploring, you know, When I, like, think about my younger self now, I'm like, if I would have been told, you can do whatever you want, what do you want explore? What do you want to do while you're here? I would have had a completely different life. Completely different. And so, I mean, I can see it in my kids now when I talk to them, because sometimes they'll get. My older girls will get in this state where they, like, feel like they're doing something wrong or, like, is there something they're supposed to be doing? Or whatever. And I'll just remind them, like, the only reason you're here is to explore, you know, and they're just like. They just, like, melt. And then it's like, okay, what do I want to do? Like, what makes me happy? What feels good to me? How do I want to experience life? Like, there's there. You don't have to hold this belief that you're being tested by some deity and that you're. You could maybe fail. It's like just. You miss out on the aliveness of being a human being when you hold that perspective. And it's almost like, I hate, too, how the church is, like, always makes Earth feel like this place that you're banished to. You know, like, you gotta come here to be tested. And life's gonna be really great in the next life, but right now it's gonna really suck really bad. It's like, that's so sad to me. Like, there's so much richness in humanness that is so incredibly spiritual and beautiful that you completely miss because you're just always thinking about, oh, my gosh, it's gonna be so much better in the next life. And, like, this place sucks.

John Dehlin [03:50:44] And it's a fallen world in Mormon.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:50:46] It's a fallen world. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:50:47] Jesus is going to come save it.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:50:49] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:50:49] But it's going to be a. I don't want to say shithole. Mormons wouldn't say that. It's going to be crappy until Jesus comes again.

Margi Dehlin [03:50:57] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:50:58] And that also absolves you of any responsibility for playing a part in the world. You know, you're just like, well, God's going to take care of it. So I guess I don't have to worry about social issues. You know, it doesn't affect me.

Samantha Shelley [03:51:08] I think I recently saw that Provo uses the most resources Per capita of anywhere in the United States.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:51:16] Not surprising.

Margi Dehlin [03:51:17] Which does.

Samantha Shelley [03:51:17] Yeah. Completely unsurprising.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:51:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:51:19] Well, that's just like the water used on BYU campus to keep the flowers in the grass green.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:51:23] Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [03:51:24] God. But I think it was looking at. Yeah, just general consumption.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:51:27] Well, and it's like, my sister, she does a ton of work for the unsheltered in Salt Lake. She has, like, a little donation closet, and they're just, like, kicking people off the. The temple grounds. You know what I mean? It's just. It's the exact same thing. Like, they're like, you're making. Making this space ugly. Like, you can't stay here.

Samantha Shelley [03:51:45] Humanity is making this face ugly.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:51:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:51:51] Okay. So basically, the way you've recontextualized your idyllic upbringing is you were carefully conditioned to ignore your inner voice, to disassociate from your inner voice and your feelings. And you were handed a script that you were to follow whether or not it was good for you or whether it was some. Whether or not it was something you wanted.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:52:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:52:21] And you. You basically. It hijacked your life. Kind of like the Matrix plugs into the bodies and just siphons out like a parasite.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:52:29] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There was no individuality. Even though you think there is. You think you're your own person when you're Mormon, you're not, because you were never given. Even given, the option as a child to really explore or develop into who you want to be. So, yeah, it was just like. That was all hijacked. And it's so sad to me because I feel like it's hijacked for no reason. You know, like, they're. They're not. Like I've said before, they're not giving you anything that doesn't already exist. It's like life in you. Yeah, exactly. Like human life is just beautiful in and of itself. And why did you come in and complicate it? Like, you're. You're telling me that I could have grown up having the belief that I'm safe no matter what, that I can't. I can't be unworthy. There's no such thing as unworthiness that you can explore, that you can just live your life to the fullest simply by doing what you want to do. Want to do. Excuse me? Like, if I would have known that, my childhood would have been so different, and my meaning. I shouldn't say my childhood, who I developed into, would have been so different, and it would have been way more truthful to who I actually Am it

Samantha Shelley [03:53:44] would have especially maybe been different for you because you described quite a safe sounding childhood. But then I guess for a lot of people, if their home is less safe than the Mormon church even. And so you can see how it is like a, it can feel like a healing bomb because it's maybe a step up from.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:54:03] I think that happens a lot, especially with people who are like converts or they grew up in really unsafe environments. They find the church and they're like, oh, this is, you know, a breath of fresh air. But it's like that's only because the church is claiming to take monopoly on something that they can have access to without the church, but they don't know how to find it or where, you know.

The Slippery Slope Question and Final Reflections

John Dehlin [03:54:28] Okay, this takes me to my last fear about psychedelics. And it's also an observation. So I know that using the slippery slope analogy or metaphor when it comes to drug experimentation is problematic for many. The idea that, well, you start with a beer or you start with a little weed and then you do some psychedelics, but then it can graduate to the harder, more addictive stuff. And I know in one sense, many of my friends who have experience experimented with this stuff will say, don't, don't say slippery slope, not a thing bad. Don't associate it with this stuff. On the other hand, I will say that I have observed, well, I think about the idea of just starting with not being comfortable with, you know, your, your anxiety and depression and, and whatever is inside your, your skin. And then you add to that the idea that if you take certain substances, you can change your state of consciousness and feel better, whether it's dopamine or serotonin or, you know, whatever the chemicals are, if I take something, I'll feel better. And even if we've all agreed that, that psychedelics are not only not necessarily addictive and can even be considered anti addictive, there is this tendency, I can see in some people to always need something to feel better, to not have a general sense of okayness with their state of consciousness. And whenever they have a free moment, where's the weed? Where's the vape pen? Where's the psychedelics? Where and where's the alcohol? And then, and then it can even get into the harder stuff that we talked to at the beginning. So I know that some people are going to throw stuff at the screen when they hear me ask this, but is that a risk?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:56:30] I feel like, I mean, I can only speak for my own personal experiences, but my psychedelic experience experiences were, although they were beautiful, they Were also terrible. And they're like a lot of work. This is just me. I know that you've done a lot more recreationally and have like these really beautiful, you know, experiences in the woods and stuff.

Samantha Shelley [03:56:50] It didn't really end up being recreational. It ultimately was all like healing.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:55] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:56:55] Yeah. So for me, my personal experiences have never just been this easeful, blissful thing that I'm like, I can't wait to do that again. You know, every time I even think about doing it, I'm like, okay, am I prepared for this? Like, is this really what I like? Do I have space for this right now? You know, because in a way, at least for me personally, it was kind of like it, it. If you want to feel better, you have to work on yourself. So the psychedelics kind of show you this is what's not lining up. This is where you know, whatever's happening in your ego and what whatnot. And then from there after that, you have to make those changes in your life. So there was never even an option for me to even remotely feel dependent on them because it was so much work. But I'm curious what yours are like.

Samantha Shelley [03:57:49] Yeah, actually hearing that. I suppose I have had more recreational experiences than you, but also at like very low doses in combination with very healthy habits, like going on a hike. And you know, I think my. There's so many ways that psychedelics made me healthier. Like I had a very bad relationship with food and my body for a lot of my life and I. Psychedelics were a massive part of me getting to a really good place with both of those things and, and really valuing nourishing myself. And yeah, I, I definitely haven't felt like psychedelics have made me more inclined to do anything else. That's more dang if anything, if I'm. If I have taken psychedelics that day or I'm more likely to want to, you know, eat a really healthy plant based meal and go and get fresh air. And you know, I feel like they, for me, go hand in hand with healthy habits rather than the other way around.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [03:58:48] I don't feel like for me, that they were ever something that. It felt like it was helping me cope. No, it never felt like that.

Samantha Shelley [03:58:54] But I think I understand the. I do. I have had times in my life where I relate to the sort of like looking for the next thing. But I think psychedelics were one of the healthiest things I could have been looking to because they did just make me do the work. So, you know, I'm very glad that they came into my life at a time when I didn't drink any alcohol. I didn't like alcohol. It was mostly just like a couple years of psychedelics and cannabis. But also I think what the. The personality profile you described of the person who's just always looking for a thing. And psychedelics are just one of many of the things in that mix. I guess they have a good. And. Well, they enjoy psychedelics enough to. To have them be a part of that mix, which to me is kind of interesting. But anyway, that's kind of its own problem, is psychedelics aren't causing that, you know, and if anything, throwing psychedelics into that mix of things that you look to is going to be, you know, replace an alcohol day with psychedelics. That's probably going to be better for you, you know, so it's not. It's not that the psychedelics are making you then want to run to alcohol, want to run to all these things, you know, not anything's possible. I guess if you have a terrible experience and you feel like you're breaking down, you might turn to alcohol to cope. But.

John Dehlin [04:00:08] Yeah, okay, that makes sense. That's helpful. Okay, well, I think we've covered. I mean, we haven't talked about mdma. Maybe that's its own episode, but a lot of people are finding MDMA is a very effective. Is MDMA considered a psychedelic or not? You don't even know.

Samantha Shelley [04:00:29] I don't know if it is. It might.

John Dehlin [04:00:32] Yeah, A lot of. A lot of people are also. I'll just. I'll throw that acronym out there for future discussion, because that's another. It's in the family of psychedelics, at least in how it's discussed as something that's helping people heal trauma and feel levels of love and connection that they have never before experienced. So I'm just gonna throw that in right at the end as we're starting. Starting to wrap up. But, yeah, this has been. I've been wanting to figure out how to introduce psychedelics formally on Mormon stories for a long, long time. Stephanie, your Instagram things popped up, and I just thought, here's someone who's really wise. And I've been in this game a while, so when someone comes on and just strikes me immediately as wise, that's why I wanted to have you on. I had no idea when I invited you that psychedelics was the key theme in your story. And what you're telling me is psychedelics were an important part of your wisdom, your. Your growth and wisdom. Is that right?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:01:37] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:01:37] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:01:38] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:01:39] So, I mean, that's. That's powerful. So, anyway, I'm really grateful, and I've really enjoyed and appreciated and valued the wisdom and the experiences that you shared. And it's probably no small thing to decide to talk about your psychedelic use coming out of a Mormon context when, you know, 50 to 100,000 people or more are gonna hear the story.

Samantha Shelley [04:02:02] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:02:04] I mean, I don't know why I just keep putting my life on the Internet. I don't know why I keep doing that. And just open yourself up to everybody's opinions. You know what? It's fine. I feel like it's something that I really believe in. Like, as tumultuous as it was, it's something that I feel like can potentially help a lot of people, honestly. And I feel very passionately about helping people, like, understand what happened to them when they leave Mormonism, you know, because there's a lot of talk about, like, church history or whatever the church is doing, but I don't see as much talk about, like, this is what happened to you. Like, this is the type of manipulation and the psychological abuse that you were enduring. And here's, like, language to understand it, you know? And so I guess just that's the. I guess that's why I've been talking about it publicly. Even though it's scary, it's just like, hopefully you can help somebody.

John Dehlin [04:02:57] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [04:02:58] Margi, I have a quick question before we end, and that's kind of tying back to the theme of spirituality and what it looked like in Mormonism, as opposed to now, how you would talk about, do you have spiritual practices? How do you experience spirituality from day to day now? Is it effortful? Is it intentional? If you want to.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:03:21] Just before we. I think that's something that's very personal for people, too. I mean, I know a lot of people who have no sort of formal spiritual practice, and they're. You know, they just love being out in nature or they love being with their kids or whatever. For me personally, like, spiritual ritual was such a huge thing for me when I was Mormon that it was really hard for me to not have something to do every day. You know, to have that sort of, like, intentional. I'm going to set this time aside and I'm going to connect with myself. So I do still have practices like that. And it's mostly just like, meditating or reading certain books, journaling, stuff like that, dropping into my body, connecting with how I'm feeling, You know, things like that.

John Dehlin [04:04:02] Nature walks.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:04:03] Yeah, nature. Yeah. I have A tree that I love to, like, sit in the winter and, like, look at out my window or go and, you know, sit under stuff like that. Yeah, definitely. But once again, I feel like it's a very personal decision.

Stephanie's Coaching Work and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [04:04:16] Yeah, I guess I do have one last question. I think you said at lunch that you're. I mean, I don't. I want your business to prosper as much as it is. Should be prospering. But it sounds like you're interested in more than hair these days, professionally. Is that an okay way to say it?

Margi Dehlin [04:04:36] Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:04:37] I just. I'm almost finished with a. A youngian coaching training, so I don't. I don't know exactly how it's going to unfold or what I'm going to do, but I do very much see myself helping people in some way to. I don't even want to say heal from religious trauma. It's not like I want to be a faith transition coach per se, but I want to help people. What was super helpful for me, I should say, is as I was transitioning, I was working with people who weren't just helping me deconstruct, they were helping me reframe. So that's what I would like to help people do, is like, hey, you don't have to just. You can maintain a sense of self and a sense of spirituality and a sense of groundedness and all of this without this lens that you were given. So I'm hoping to help people kind of reframe that, but I once again have no idea what that's going to look like.

John Dehlin [04:05:30] Yeah. But I mean, I hope people will follow. So again, your private Instagram is Stephanie Ann again.

Margi Dehlin [04:05:37] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:05:38] With no E, A N. Again, I hope they'll follow you because if you do get into coaching, I think you could help a lot of people.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:05:46] Yeah. And I'll. I'm sure I'll post all about it on there. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:05:48] Okay. So follow Stephanie Ann again. That's your private Instagram. And then you've got of your professional Instagram, which again is hair and makeup by Steph. Hair and makeup by Steph. Which is also fun.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:06:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:06:02] And cool. Is your Pinterest still going strong?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:06:05] Still going strong.

John Dehlin [04:06:05] You still.

Samantha Shelley [04:06:06] To the end of.

John Dehlin [04:06:07] Do you still give content? Do you still put content on your.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:06:09] Yeah, I mostly just post on there. What I post on Instagram.

John Dehlin [04:06:11] Okay.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:06:12] But yeah, I do all the time.

John Dehlin [04:06:13] Okay. All right. Okay. Anything else you want to plug? If somebody is having a wedding.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:06:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:06:19] And they want some professional hair.

Samantha Shelley [04:06:21] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:06:21] If you have a lot of money. And you want to fly me across the world. No.

Samantha Shelley [04:06:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:06:25] You still do wedding hair.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:06:27] I do. I. I'm very. I don't want to say selective because I just don't take a ton of weddings anymore just because I'm a mom, you know, doing mom life, so. But I definitely do still do weddings.

John Dehlin [04:06:39] Do you have a website?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:06:40] Yeah. How do people just hair and makeup by stuff.

John Dehlin [04:06:42] That's the website.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:06:43] That's the website.

John Dehlin [04:06:44] So you do makeup too?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:06:45] Yeah, I have actually haven't done makeup since COVID I, like, stopped doing it during COVID And then I was like, oh, I think I just want to do hair. But I. It's my business name, so.

John Dehlin [04:06:54] Hairandmakeupbysteff.com.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:06:56] yep.

John Dehlin [04:06:57] Okay. And that's also the Instagram.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:06:58] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:06:59] Okay. All right. And Margi and Samantha, both of you do coaching and I recommend you to people. You. I know Margi's oftentimes like, I'm. I'm good, but. So I'll just plug Margi. You can find margie@beautyinthenow.org if you're needing a coach to help you through life transitions, grieving, faith transitions, relationship stuff. Margi's amazing. Anything you want to add to that?

Margi Dehlin [04:07:28] I was just going to say, and

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:07:29] if I'm full, I give a referral

Margi Dehlin [04:07:31] list and Samantha to budget.

Samantha Shelley [04:07:33] Margi is on my referral list.

John Dehlin [04:07:35] And so, Samantha, how do people, if they want you, talk about your coaching.

Samantha Shelley [04:07:39] I'm samanthashelleycoaching.com I'm also on Instagram @thesamspo. But yeah, I do faith transition and intentional living coaching.

John Dehlin [04:07:49] And Shelley is ey. So Samantha s h e l l e y coaching.com and the Sam Spo is s a T G S a M P S O. Yeah. Is that right? Okay. Yeah. And use Samantha, use Margi, and someday use Stephanie for co for your coaching needs.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:08:12] Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:08:12] Yeah.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:08:13] Yes, yes, please.

John Dehlin [04:08:15] Okay, well, thanks, Stephanie. This has been so lovely. I hope you'll stay in touch and come back on Mormon Stories.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:08:21] Yes, yes. Thank you so much for having me.

John Dehlin [04:08:23] And hi to your brother because apparently he's listening to a few more stories.

Margi Dehlin [04:08:27] Yes.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:08:27] You were a big part of his transition out. This was a long time ago, but.

John Dehlin [04:08:31] Hi. Stephanie's brother and ex husband. All right. Thanks, Stephanie. Keep in touch.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:08:38] Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:08:39] Thanks, Samantha. You're awesome.

Samantha Shelley [04:08:41] Yeah, I was going to say me and Tana did a deep dive into the Mormon to Mushrooms pipeline on. Or just a deep dive into our own psychedelic experiences on our YouTube channel.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:08:50] Oh, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:08:50] There.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:08:50] There is a Mormons on Mushrooms podcast.

John Dehlin [04:08:52] Yeah, I mentioned that before. So let's plug them. Check out Mormons on Mushrooms podcast.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:08:57] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [04:08:57] Because they've got instantly pivot to a different content creator,

John Dehlin [04:09:05] The one on Zelda on the Shelf. Tell us one more time what that's about.

Samantha Shelley [04:09:07] Yeah, I think the video title is the Mormons. The Mormon to Mushrooms pipeline.

John Dehlin [04:09:13] Okay, so we'll include Mormons to Mushroom pipeline. We'll include that in our show notes.

Samantha Shelley [04:09:20] Oh, thank you, John.

John Dehlin [04:09:21] Check out Zelf on the Shelf. Subscribe to Zelf on the Shelf. Donate to the Patreon on Zel on the Shelf and support these and listen

Samantha Shelley [04:09:30] to my EP about my psychedelic experiences.

John Dehlin [04:09:32] Oh, yeah, you've got music on Spotify under Samantha Shelley.

Samantha Shelley [04:09:36] Yeah, I made an EP just about my psychedelic journey last year, and I was.

John Dehlin [04:09:40] What's it called?

Samantha Shelley [04:09:41] The ep.

John Dehlin [04:09:42] The. The. Yeah, the.

Samantha Shelley [04:09:43] It's called Don't Ask why. Oh, it's a threesome. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:09:50] Okay. Yeah, check out Samantha Spotify now we're promoting you.

Margi Dehlin [04:09:53] Yeah, I love your music. So.

John Dehlin [04:09:56] Yeah. Okay, so Zephy on the Shelf, Samantha Shelley coaching and Samantha on Spotify. Margaret Beatty in the Now, Stephanie. We've already said it. And check out Mormons and Mushrooms podcast. They do good work. Also, there was going to be a Mormon Palooza. My friend Steve and Sarah Urquhart, they do an annual Mormons and psychedelics conference. And I don't know if that's going to be held in April. I think Mormon Palooza was going to happen, but it's been canceled. But the work that Steve and Sarah have been doing has been featured on Rolling Stone. Like, it's kind of been a big deal. And so shout out to Steve. I think their organization is called the Divine Assembly. So that's also something you can check out if you want to Google that. And there's a gazillion guides like Utahns that want to guide people. How do you find a good guide?

Samantha Shelley [04:10:50] I have that episode.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:10:51] Yeah, I have. Have one. I'm gonna. I'm gonna tell them that they need. They need to come on here because I feel like all of your questions they could answer. And I've been to a lot of guides and I know that there are. There's not just one good guide in Utah. I know there's lots, but I've been to a lot and I'm like, this is the only one that I would trust with my psychedelic life. So I'm gonna tell them that they need to come on here.

John Dehlin [04:11:13] Okay, well, we'll see. If we let them know. But that's cool. All right, well, we've given enough references for today. Read how to change your mind by Michael Pollan. Watch the Michael Pollan three part series on Netflix about how to change your mind. Check out Fantastic or fabulous fungi as it's a beautiful. Made Margi cry. And it's a great. It's a great document

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:11:43] tagline, the permanent tagline.

Samantha Shelley [04:11:45] I'd wear something based on that.

John Dehlin [04:11:47] And maybe I'll try psychedelics. Maybe. Maybe psychedelics are my future. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [04:11:51] And will you be able to tell on the podcast?

John Dehlin [04:11:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [04:11:55] Will it be.

Samantha Shelley [04:11:56] Will he be suddenly spacious stoner John?

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:12:00] Yeah. His hair is going to be like this.

Samantha Shelley [04:12:02] Abundant job.

Margi Dehlin [04:12:03] That's right.

John Dehlin [04:12:04] Abundant job. So Marty's got me as a stoner. You've got my hair long.

Stephanie Brinkerhoff [04:12:09] You got a man bunny.

John Dehlin [04:12:11] A man bun. I've got a man bun. And you've got me. What?

Samantha Shelley [04:12:13] I don't know. I just think you could get really into magnets.

John Dehlin [04:12:16] Magnets. Magnets. All right, we'll see. Will John take psychedelics? That's the question we'll end with. All right. Thanks, Stephanie Brinkerhoff. You're awesome. Stay in touch.

Samantha Shelley [04:12:27] Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:12:28] Thanks, Margi. Thanks, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [04:12:30] Bye.

John Dehlin [04:12:31] Thanks, everyone. We do not endorse breaking the law. We're not pushing psychedelics on anyone. But be safe. Find healing and growth however you find it. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Support Mormon Stories. If you value this content@mormonstories.org, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor. Subscribe to us on YouTube, on Facebook and wherever TikTok Instagram. We love your support and your follows. The best thing you can ever do is share these episodes with people who you think might benefit from them. And most importantly, to heal and grow. Be good to each other, be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care of.

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