Welcome and Panel Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast, Secret Lives of Mormon wives Edition Part 3. I am your host for today, John De lin. It is September 24th and we're back ready to do our concluding review of the smash Hulu series that I don't know if it's number one on Hulu still, but it certainly was for a while anyway, we, we, we thought about the most clickbaity title that we could come up with and we came up with Our Mormon Husband's Jerks. And answer that question we have back in studio, Alyssa. Hey, Alyssa. Hey. Yes or no, our Mormon Husband's Jerks.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:00:44] You know. Yeah. To be continued. Please stay tuned.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] No spoilers. All right.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:00:49] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] Alyssa, remind us to teeny bit about you and what you do.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:00:54] I'm Alyssa. I'm a writer. I teach university composition courses where we talk about analysis, critical thinking. Was Mormon. Still consider myself to be, you know, community based Mormon.

Guest [00:01:07] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:01:07] Love, love tv. This is great.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] You have no, you have no reality TV shame, apparently.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:01:14] No, no reality TV shame.

John Dehlin [00:01:16] All right, thanks for joining us also for, not for the first time on Mormon Stories, but for the first time in this panel. In this review, we have the Hayley Rawls.

Hayley Rawle [00:01:27] Rahl.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] Rol. Hayley Rawls.

Hayley Rawle [00:01:29] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] Hayley Rawls from Girls Camp podcast.

Guest 2 [00:01:31] Hey, Hayley.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:01:32] Hi.

Hayley Rawle [00:01:32] I'm so happy to be here. I said when I came in, there's nothing I love more than talking about the secret lives of Mormon wives. So thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:01:40] Oh, well, Samantha, Shelley's loss is our game. We love you, Samantha. Samantha will give her our best wishes. She got sick and so she couldn't join us, but we'll have her back. Samantha. Anyway, tell us a bit about for those, for the three people who don't know, tell us about Girls Camp Podcast.

Hayley Rawle [00:01:59] Yeah, so I host the girls Camp podcast. It's also about the post Mormon experience. And I, we were actually just talking about this. I recently had Jesse from the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives on the Girls Camp podcast. So I've been deep in this rabbit hole. Love talking about all things Mormonism, Mormon culture, and I grew up Mormon, did all the things and then left and am currently unpacking it and have lots to say about it.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] And of the four of us, you're the only one who's ever had a brand deal.

Hayley Rawle [00:02:30] Yes, yes. So maybe I can relate with these women.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] You're the expert. You can, you could opine about the brand deal.

Hayley Rawle [00:02:38] Yes, I can. I can and will as needed. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] All right, well, we're super Excited to have you. Thanks for coming.

Hayley Rawle [00:02:44] Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:02:45] And then, if last but not least, the epic, the amazing, the wonderful Gerardo Simone is with us. Hey, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:53] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] What do you do for a living?

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:56] I work for Mormon Stories.

Hayley Rawle [00:02:59] Best job ever.

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:00] Yeah.

Catching Up on Episodes One Through Five

John Dehlin [00:03:01] All right, well, so for those of you who don't know, we of course covered episodes one through five on two prior episodes. So if you want to really get the lowdown on the Mormon skinny and the ex Mormon skinny on this show, make sure and check out parts one and two. This is part three where we will be covering six through eight, and we're excited about it. So where should we begin? Should we begin by talking about villains?

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:37] Yeah, I think that's been the topic of controversy that everyone's weighing in on social media.

John Dehlin [00:03:44] And we want to. We want to welcome. We are live streaming today, so we want to welcome our live audience. And we. We'll do our best to incorporate your. Your comments and feedback. Super chats are great if you're in a position to throw some our way. That helps support our. Our. Our work, but also it helps us make sure we see your comments. So anyway, we welcome that. Welcome our live audience. And so. So heroes and villains. Perota, you put a slide together, actually,

Who Is the Real Villain of the Show

Gerardo Sumano [00:04:15] with Julia, but here it is. I think she's. She puts in there. Who is the real villain of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] Who are the candidates?

Gerardo Sumano [00:04:26] Three people. The. The coda, Whitney or. Or Zach. Zach Affleck.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] So Dakota is the boyfriend of Taylor. Whitney is kind of. Yeah, she's kind of the foil to the whole thing.

Gerardo Sumano [00:04:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:42] And then. And then Zach is Jen's adorable husband. So who. Do you all have opinions?

Hayley Rawle [00:04:50] I have a strong opinion.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:04:51] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:04:51] I think it's Zach through and through. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] Well, that's on point for today's theme.

Guest [00:04:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] Do you want to tell us more?

Hayley Rawle [00:04:58] Yeah, I mean, I think we'll get all of it in these episodes especially. But as I was watching the series, when I got to episode seven, which we will be discussing, I literally turned to my friend and I said, oh, good, we have a male villain now. I feel much more comfortable villainizing Zach than I did Whitney. So I think the. The evidence speaks for itself, in my opinion, when we see Zach's behavior in these episodes.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] Okay. All right, Alyssa.

Guest [00:05:24] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:05:24] I mean, I think that Whitney feels like a classic reality TV villain. The drama is based on, like, following and unfollowing. But when we talk about decode, but especially Zach, like, the stakes are just much higher, and we're starting to see actual problems in real relationships that extend beyond, like, reality TV pettiness. And for me, this is really when the tides turned in the show.

Hayley Rawle [00:05:47] And I.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:05:47] And I think it's really unfair, too, to categorize all three of them in the same. On the same level of villainess, because, like, they're not. They're not doing the same things.

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] So you're saying Zach's in outer darkness.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:05:59] Exactly. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] But Dakota is where, you know, he's.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:06:03] He's working his way that way. Yeah. You know, to be. Yes. There we go. We have to see more of him.

John Dehlin [00:06:10] Whitney's terrestrial.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:06:11] Whitney's terrestrial.

Guest 2 [00:06:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] You don't know how much is just theater. Is that what you're saying?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:06:14] Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, it seems like there's, like, real drama going on, but. But it. But the harm is much less.

Hayley Rawle [00:06:20] Yes. I also think I see Whitney and Dakota as more broken individuals whose brokenness is also rubbing off on people around them, whereas I see Zach as more nefarious in intention as well, which I think makes a big difference.

Mormonism's Influence on the Husbands

Gerardo Sumano [00:06:40] Would you say that it is actually through Zach where we actually see mormism come through?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:06:48] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [00:06:48] Like, is it because he's arguably probably one of the most orthodox people in the. In the show and his family. And it's interesting that the villain ends up being probably one of the most orthodox people on the show, which I

Alyssa Witbeck [00:07:06] think is probably the opposite of the intention, you know, when some of them that are more active went into the show. And I think, you know, Mormonism and Mormon culture and even Mormon doctrine, to a point, has played such a big role in the show overall. You know, we have baby blessings. We have, you know, garment discussion, but the way we really are seeing, like, Mormon characters play out, the way the Mormon doctrine is actually penetrating the people that Zach.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you think, John?

John Dehlin [00:07:33] Well, I do. Yeah. Zach. Zach disturbs me. And if you think about real patriarchy dynamics in Mormonism and, you know, all. All that I've seen in terms of marital conflict and abuse and. And that sort of thing. Sort of like some of the worst aspects of Mormon patriarchy. Zach gives. Some of. Zach gives Mormon patriarchy. Is that the way to say it in 2024?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:08:01] That's the way to say it.

Hayley Rawle [00:08:02] He gives. Yes.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:08:04] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:08:04] Sorry, I missed it, but. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] What did I say?

Hayley Rawle [00:08:07] No, I just missed the. It gives part. That's maybe too common in my vernacular to even. Yes.

Guest 2 [00:08:13] Trigger that.

Hayley Rawle [00:08:13] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:08:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:15] And that's when. Yeah, that's when it starts to get kind of serious and Chilling.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:20] Yeah. So I think we have a video that we, we can show from that kind of discusses this idea about Whitney and whether she can be a. Considered a villain or not. You know, kind of like another perspective that we can play. And Tara Herbert, who has been on Mormon stories before, gives an unpopular opinion on Whitney and the church.

John Dehlin [00:08:42] And Tara's interesting because she's, I guess, the daughter in law of former governor Gary Herbert. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Her, she's married to former governor Gary Herbert's son, which is kind of interesting.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:56] Wow.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:08:56] Utah's a small world.

Hayley Rawle [00:08:58] Very small world. Yeah, I know Tara. I did not know that about her.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] Yeah, yeah. And yeah, go ahead.

Hayley Rawle [00:09:03] Sorry. She talks about this in the video, but she was mission companions with Whitney, so also another small world think and an interesting insight into Whitney.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] All right, let's play a little bit from Tara. Okay.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:09:20] So last night I went to the premiere party of the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and I just finished watching the series and I wanted to share some of my unpopular opinions about it. I first met Whitney Levitt as my mission companion in Atlanta, and we quickly became best friends. And after watching the show, my opinion about her hasn't changed at all. The church released a statement before the show came out saying that the show was not an accurate representation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and their values and their views. But I think it absolutely was an accurate representation of what it is like as women within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:57] I didn't like how they had the ex Mormon women of the group pretending like they were just less devout members, because I feel like a lot of people don't recognize this dynamic outside of Mormonism of how much tension there is between ex Mormons and Mormons and how hard it can be to maintain friendships when you're within this dynamic. There was a lot of talk about empowerment and wanting to change things within their Mormon religion and culture, but there was no talk about how essentially this isn't really possible because men are in charge of all the hierarchical decisions within Mormonism, and that absolutely is what creates the culture.

Video Clip 1 [00:10:39] The only secret that I think was actually uncovered is how much all of these women are judging themselves, how much people are judging them, and how much they have continued the cycle to judge others. And that really is so big within Mormonism. It is so hard as women within Mormonism to be able to find your authentic self. And I feel like all of those women were on that journey to figure out who they were outside of the box that was created for them by their church. Lastly, everyone has been comparing the show to the movie Mean Girls, and in my personal opinion, for me, it was giving more girl interrupted.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:19] As an ex Mormon woman, I found myself being able to relate to every single cast member on the show. And honestly, all of them should be so proud for being so vulnerable and open, even knowing there was going to be so much scrutiny.

John Dehlin [00:11:35] All right, that's a. That's a good take. What did y' all think? Alyssa?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:11:39] Yeah, she had so much good stuff. I think what I really liked that she was talking about. Well, one of the things is when she was saying how judging each other is, you know, a patriarchal system within the Mormon church and how it is just so Mormon. And I think that's something that, like, so many women struggle with in and out of the church. And I think part of it, you know, is definitely this patriarchal structure. And I think part of it is also how, you know, in Mormon doctrine, like, we do have these very black and white right and wrong. And when you can see something that is considered right versus something that is considered wrong, it's really hard to not judge somebody that is, you know, not following the line.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:12:16] And you learn that from the time you're three. And so, yeah, I just feel like these women were kind of set up to kind of be playing this somewhat petty game. And, you know, Whitney, I think, is, you know, acting immaturely at least. The presentation of Whitney that we're seeing can be really frustrating. And I can also, like, see a lot of, like, the experiences of Mormons in her and in, like, judging how active people are and, you know, kind of, like drawing these hard lines on in groups, out groups. And, yeah, she's a very common villain, I guess. Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:12:52] I was thinking about back to, you know, Zach versus Whitney as the villains of the season. I'm actually sad that Whitney sort of phased out, it seems, of filming in this latter third of the season, because I think that we saw the best of mom talk when Zach sort of emerged as a villain, because we saw how, despite some of the in group dynamics that, to Alyssa's point, are probably fueled also by patriarchy, I think we saw how these women actually can rally together and the support that they can offer each other as women within the patriarchal society. And so I think it's unfortunate that Whitney kind of missed out on that part of the storylines, because when Whitney was the villain, I think the dynamics we were seeing were it was a little bit less of that empowerment that mom Talk claims that they are all about.

Hayley Rawle [00:13:51] Right. Where I feel like when it was about Zach and Jen and we saw, excuse me, we saw a lot more of what I think can be really powerful about these female friendships and female dynamics, particularly in a patriarchal system.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:08] Yeah, yeah, it's kind of interesting. Just something I was thinking about is about she mentioned about the church's statement and how they release this before the, the series even came out and said this doesn't represent our values. This is not the LDS church. And it's like these people served missions and some of them have temple recommends. They have the church PR had the ability to just research who these women were and search if they were, that they were returned missionaries, that they are in good standing with the church. It makes, it's just really infuriating that they would make a statement like a blanket statement like that without, you know, even watching the show because he hadn't come out and then not knowing anything about these women. But yeah, kind of interesting.

Hayley Rawle [00:14:52] And I think as Alyssa said, it's funny, it's extra ironic because as the show unfolded the women and the men characters who identified as most Mormon, I think we could say were oftentimes the people behaving in the worst ways. Right. And so I think the fact that the church made a statement of this doesn't represent us. And yet the people who were most representative of the church so self proclaimedly they were the ones who were oftentimes behaving the worst. Which just kind of adds an extra layer of irony to the church wanting to distance themselves from it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:28] Yeah, yeah. And behaving the world the worst. Probably not in the Mormon like breaking up, breaking Mormon values or you know, Mormon rules, but rather kind of what seems more disturbing for an outsider.

Hayley Rawle [00:15:43] Yeah, good distinction. They're not the ones drinking in the hot tub, but they're the ones verbally abusing their partners.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:15:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] So I, it's, I could, I would be willing to bet a large amount of money that Zach's family is well connected within Mormonism. Don't they have the, the level of affluence? And if you just look at their house and the way they all dressed and the way they were presiding. Isn't he a doctor?

Hayley Rawle [00:16:11] He's a surgeon.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Yeah, yeah. Like there's, there's like a zero percent chance that his family isn't blue blood mainstream Mormonism.

Hayley Rawle [00:16:18] Right.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] And then I turns out our own Lila Tuller, he was at byu like during the filming. He was a BYU student in med school.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:16:27] Right.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] So, I mean, that's pre med. Yeah, yeah. Premed. Yeah, yeah. And then Lila Tuller, who was Hartman Rector Jr. S daughter, we've had her on Mormon Stories podcast. So she was a very prominent general authorities daughter. She told me that her daughter and Demi were super close friends all growing up. And Demi's husband Brett is an Ingaman, and the Ingamans were, I guess the managers of the Osmonds. It's a really prominent, wealthy Mormon family that's. That's connected all the way back to kind of those. The Osmond power families, you know, in Provo. You grew up in Provo?

Hayley Rawle [00:17:11] I grew up in Provo. I knew Demi was in Orem. I knew of her. She was a little older than me.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:17:17] We.

Hayley Rawle [00:17:18] Yeah, we were tangentially. I knew who she was. We had friends of friends and things like that.

John Dehlin [00:17:22] So does the Ingamen name mean anything to you or not? Is that.

Hayley Rawle [00:17:26] I don't know if you've talked about this connection before, but Brett Ingaman, who's now married to Demi, his ex wife, is on the Real Housewives of Salt Lake as well. So that's the only way I knew of the Ingaman thing. But funny, this is random. My stepdad taught Brett Ingaman in seminary and he's now watching the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and he's like, wow, this is not what I expected where this man would end up. But anyway, kind of a funny, also personal connection. And I think just goes to show to your point, the level of connectedness is just really interesting. And it's been funny seeing so many people talking about this series as someone inside that connected web.

Hayley Rawle [00:18:08] I mean, even Tara talking about Whitney, she was her mission companion. And you see how the people inside that group are tangentially associated with that group. We're all only a connection away from probably almost anyone on this cast. Which definitely makes it an interesting thing to see as a hit show on Hulu.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:18:28] And I also think, like, with all of that, especially thinking about how connected exacts family is, how, you know, mainstream Mormon, they seem to be on the show or they purport to be. I think it's really important for Mormons to be able to recognize that the experience that Zach is and Jenner having is not uncommon, that it happens. High level Mormons. I think it's really easy for Mormons, even for Jen, you know, from how she's talking on the show, to kind of be like, this is like a. Kind of a fluke. This is a weird situation. This is like a bad apple that can be solved, that we can, like, step away from.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:19:01] But when we look at it closer, we see, you know, we'll dive into this more as. As the episode continues. But just how common the relationship dynamic Zach and Jen have, how familiar that is to so many of us, even at this high level, that this is not just like some random offshoot on a reality TV show. Like, huh, that was a weird guy. We don't need to, like, interrogate. That I think is really important for any members of the church who watch this show to realize, like, oh, this is something that I do need to interrogate about my community and about, like, the culture and the doctrine that I'm a part of.

John Dehlin [00:19:32] So I guess the takeaway is the Mormon church, and orthodox Mormons just need to stop trying to distance the church from these characters.

Hayley Rawle [00:19:40] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:19:40] And takeaway number two is Whitney is not the villain.

Hayley Rawle [00:19:44] Zach is the villain. Zach is the true villain. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] I just got an interesting comment from Harold White. He writes, didn't the showrunners tell Whitney they were going to frame her as the villain?

Hayley Rawle [00:19:57] I actually heard via Jesse that Whitney was actually kind of the pet of production, that she was really close with production. And it seems like the rest of the cast imagined that she was going to be given one of the best edits because of her closeness with production and though.

John Dehlin [00:20:14] But are those. Are those mutually exclusive? Can you be the pet of production? And they like villains and so you can be on good terms with the production staff as the villain character, perhaps.

Hayley Rawle [00:20:25] I do think Whitney, as the villain, as she was portrayed, was not necessarily in the empowering, conniving villain. I think the way. I mean, even down to details like the toilet paper on the shoe in that one scene, I think as I perceived the edit, it was more to embarrass her. There was a lot of editing things that seemed that way. Who's to say? But from what I've heard, I don't think that Whitney had any idea she was going to be the villain. Which, again, who knows?

John Dehlin [00:20:56] Interesting.

Hayley Rawle [00:20:56] Yeah. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:59] When the show came out, she. She made a video on Tik Tok where she said, well, that's not how I remember it kind of thing. But all. All the other girls have been going on podcast saying, well, that's exactly what happened.

John Dehlin [00:21:10] Yeah, interesting. That would just suck to, like, participate in something that's going to have global exposure and only find out after that you're framed as a villain. Yeah, that would super suck.

Hayley Rawle [00:21:23] I was also at the premiere event for when they showed this, and Whitney came Late. She was not standing up at the front with the rest of the women. They did a little intro thing. So, I mean, again, who knows? But it seems like she's definitely taking it hard. And I think if she had gone in wanting to be the villain, she maybe would have. She maybe would be responding differently.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:21:47] And she doesn't seem to be, like, leaning into it too much either, you know?

Hayley Rawle [00:21:51] Yeah, a little bit. She kind of is, but isn't. I feel like she's is but isn't. I don't know.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:21:57] There's moments where she is, and then when people actually criticize her, she seems uncomfortable.

Hayley Rawle [00:22:02] Yes, good. Yes, I agree.

John Dehlin [00:22:03] So a couple. I'd just be integrating comments as they come a little bit. Audrey writes. Audrey Barlow writes. I went to high school with Zach's parents. Typical, rich, popular Mormon kids. And that's just Audrey's opinion, Audrey's experience.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:15] Well, Zach, that say. Does say that. Oh, sorry. Jan says that Sax family all come from family of surgeons. Yeah, like, it's not just Sax dad, but, like, Sax dad. Generations before generations first have been surgeons.

John Dehlin [00:22:30] Okay. And then our own Julia writes, in a later interview, the girls said that Whitney would cry whenever people called her the villain.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:22:38] So, anyway.

John Dehlin [00:22:40] All right, now we're going to be sympathetic to Whitney. I don't want to spoiler, but after episode eight, I was just trying to make sense of how absurd this whole thing is. Margi and I were trying to make sense of some of Whitney's behavior, for example, and it's just like, how can we really try to even form opinions on this absurdity? Because it's just so theatrical. And what I concluded. And, Alyssa, you can, I guess, you're both kind of literary. You both have literary slants.

John Dehlin [00:23:09] But the best way I could make sense of it was is that this is a form of modern satire. That the weird, absurd theatrics is just a vehicle to deliver astute social observations. And if you. If you don't take it as actual plot, but instead of satire, maybe it actually. That can allow us all to feel comfortable about evaluating it and learning from it. Is that possible? My making it too serious?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:23:37] No, no. I think. I think reality TV is very serious.

Hayley Rawle [00:23:41] I agree. I have lots to say about it.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:23:45] But I do think, like, the. The notion that, like, reality TV is staged, not scripted, I think is definitely coming to fruition here. So things tend to be, like, exaggerated. You know, people are also. They're under, like, high stress of being on T tv. They're editing things in a different way. So I Don't think anything we're seeing is, like, fake or, like, scripted. Like, okay, now, you say this, you say this, but everything is, like, up to a 10. You know, everybody is an exaggerated kind of caricature. Right, like you were saying, like. Yeah, exactly. And so I think. Yeah, that just.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] So it's. It's truth. Ish. It's real. Ish. Is that what you're saying?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:24:17] Yeah, and it makes it easier to evaluate, you know, because it's like, everybody's like, more. There's just so much more to see.

Hayley Rawle [00:24:25] Yeah, it's like real life magnified, I think, too. I know a lot of people who criticize reality TV could say something like, oh, well, Whitney was edited to be the villain, and she was maybe fed lines that made her look more villainous. I also think it's really fascinating to kind of break that fourth wall and think, okay, of course there is producer manipulation, but the producers are only working with what they see. See? And I think a good producer is able to kind of suss out a dynamic, sense people's weak points, and then play into that. So to Alyssa's point, I think it's definitely exaggerated, but they're not working with nothing.

Hayley Rawle [00:25:01] You know, they couldn't take the four of us and make that same show, obviously. And so I think Whitney, she has a certain personality that they are then trying to get her to play up, that they are creating situations where her personality is going to come out in these specific ways. And so, yes, I don't think you can look at it as real life fly on the wall, but I do think once you break that fourth wall, it's maybe even more interesting, because then you're thinking about, oh, what are these people giving the producers? And also what are they willing to do for tv? I mean, there's some things I watched on the show that I would have just said, I'm not going to do that.

Hayley Rawle [00:25:38] And to see the willingness of characters to even do certain things that the producers are asking them to do, I think is really fascinating as well.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:25:46] Like what? What wouldn't you have done?

Hayley Rawle [00:25:48] The Fruity Pebbles, I think, is a good example. And I know that's been discussed before. Yes. Someone could have said, hey, Whitney, you should give Demi this box of Fruity Pebbles. But she wasn't forced to do that.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:25:59] Right. It may not have been her idea

Hayley Rawle [00:26:01] exactly, but she still did it. Exactly. And she was maybe encouraged. But then another thing that I think is something to think about is once she gave Demi the Fruity Pebbles, say the producers Told her to. Then you just watch how things unfold. And that's where the social experiment of it is really fascinating, because in that moment, then they're just reacting to this gift. And yeah, in the real world, would that gift be given? Maybe not. But now you're seeing how people react in these heightened situations. And then you are seeing what I think is very real human emotion in a lot of instances. In some instances, maybe less so.

John Dehlin [00:26:39] Love it, love it, love it. Okay, a couple. There's some comments that are really good. So really quickly, I like that Christine. Christine writes. Chatrone writes, love this perspective. Instead of pitting women against women, the real problem is the patriarchy that creates this dynamic in the first place. Do you all like that comment?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:26:57] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:26:58] Snaps for that.

Hayley Rawle [00:26:59] Amen. All the snaps.

John Dehlin [00:27:00] And then perhaps the most important comment of the day, Melly writes, just arrived. Love Alyssa's haircuts.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:27:07] Oh, thank you.

Guest [00:27:08] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:27:11] So we can just end now?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:27:12] Yeah, exactly.

Episode Six Begins: Body Image and Plastic Surgery

John Dehlin [00:27:15] All right, well, let's go ahead and go to the beginning of episode six. And it starts out, or at least my notes. We're going to start with this art day where the. The girls are getting anatomical drinks and they're drawing their vulvas. And there's a couple of notes, I think, Alyssa, you took these notes. And I'll just read the notes. Jessie has gotten her boobs done three times and is getting a labiaplasty, which is surgery on your labia. Jen writes, I don't even know what a vagina looks like. Says that. And then Jesse responds, and this may be graphic. I'm just reading what Alyssa wrote or what Jesse said. My meat curtains hang low. What are we to make of this? We'll have Hayley go first.

Hayley Rawle [00:28:10] I was debating, I was actually kind of debating some of this with my group chat of women. And we were talking about how sometimes, perhaps surprisingly, Mormon women are over explicit about sex. And this isn't sex specifically, but obviously related in some ways. And there were some of my friends who were saying this is just weird behavior. Kind of the delayed development behavior that Brit from no Nonsense Spirituality has been talking about. I can absolutely see that. I also think for me, as a Mormon woman who grew up in Provo, Utah, I can watch that scene and while it's being played up, it's a little cringey at moments.

Hayley Rawle [00:28:55] I think the fact that these women are talking about vulvas on national TV and with each other is something to be celebrated in a lot of ways. And even the labiaplasty of it all. I think that there is some really beneficial things about removing taboos from those sorts of things, because as we know, you've discussed this on Mormon Stories podcast, surgeries like that are happening. And I think being able to talk about them openly, even celebrate them, you know, paint the vulvas, I think that there's something again, from my background that I can see about that and really appreciate and I can understand how Mormon women are sometimes maybe more explicit about those things in a way that other people wouldn't understand, because I see it as a pushback and to purity culture, to patriarchy, where I think the powers that be don't want women being open about those sorts of things.

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:53] Yeah. Something I thought was interesting that the most faithful women in. In the group didn't know what, or couldn't remember what her intimate part looked like. Yeah, it's really.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:30:07] Yeah. I feel like that. That whole scene where we see both kind of like the over explicit conversation, like, let's draw it. Let's all talk about, like, let's make jokes about meat curtains, you know, those types of things. And then we, we, you know, juxtapose that with Jen saying, like, oh, maybe I need to like, go look up a picture of like, what a vulva looks like. Like, that felt so Mormon to me because I do think, like, a lot of Mormon women aren't, don't really know, like the specifics. They're not really taught to really pay that close of attention to like, what our bodies do or what they look like, you know, things like that.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:30:38] And so then kind of like that overcompensation, I think is really common. And I do think, like, well, you know, to your point, Hayley, like, is it cringy? Yes. Is it? I also was like, found it interesting that like, the point also was not only to like, draw a vulva, but like draw your perfect vulva. Which I was like, oh, there it is. You know, there's still like this like, little bit of segue in there of like this body perfection, patriarchal kind of stance that tends to seep in even in these empowering moments. And so I feel like this is very complicated. And I feel like these women just throughout this series and through this episode just show so many times, like the complexity of trying to live in a patriarchal world and trying to go away from purity culture and how like, it can be simultaneously empowering and we can be de. Empowering ourselves in one sitting. And that's. That's a lot to unpack in the first, like two minutes of the show.

Hayley Rawle [00:31:31] Yeah, I think I appreciate you saying that because I think there is a little bit of, like, faux sex positivity or, like, totally an attempt at sex positivity, but with still these underlying the perfect vulva. And it's all in honor of going to a surgery to achieve the perfect vulva. And so I think that's a great distinction of, yes, it's maybe a pushback, but only within the confines of how far they're even kind of allowed to go within the system that they're a part of.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:32:03] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:32:05] So for me, and I worry that this is going to sound to some like I'm virtue signaling. I'm not, you know, if you. If you married to Margi, I'll just talk about my relationship with Margi. She would always want to say, do you like my hair long? Do you like my hair short? Do you think I should color my hair? Should I not? Is this dress cute? You know, and I have always just felt annoyed at the way culture puts a burden on women that men don't have to carry. And I had these feelings before I even would have identified as a feminist. I'm just like, why do women have to wear makeup and men don't?

John Dehlin [00:32:40] Why do women have to spend an hour in front of the mirror to get ready and men don't. Why do women have to wear heels that have to be ungodly uncomfortable and awkward and dangerous, possibly. And men don't like. And again, this is just. I'm just being honest. This is how I've always felt. So when Margi's like, should I color my hair? I'm like, you do what you want with your hair. I love your gray. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:33:04] You know, should I wear mascara? I'm like, you're beautiful. Mascara. I don't need you to wear a single piece of makeup. Like, that's how I've just always felt because I just kind of. I like Markie as Markie. You know what I mean? But I'm supportive of whatever she does. So, again, I'm just being honest here. And so, you know, there was a comment, you know, Jamie Ferrier writes, I had no idea Mormons were so into plastic surgery. We've done a whole episode on that. So you all check that out. It's just a few episodes ago, but Mormons have, what, two or four times the plastic surgeons per capita than la, right?

John Dehlin [00:33:41] Didn't that come out of our plastic surgery episode? Like, yes, Mormons are the plastic surgery. And. And my analysis of. We did a Survey of Mormon women about their experiences with plastic surgery. And most of the women who responded said they were really happy with their plastic surgery. But it wasn't so much that it. Saying it made my husband happy. It was. It made me happy. And so I realized I have to be guarded about my opinions about this sort of stuff because it's not about the men, it's not about me. And if a woman's saying my mommy makeover just makes me feel better about myself or my clothes fit better, or I just feel like I'm cuter or can wear my old clothes or whatever the reason is, then yes, yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:34:29] All the plastic surgery that makes people feel healthy when it comes to the labiaplasty. And again, I'm sure I'm not even supposed to have an opinion on this. Like, I've always associated that with a woman trying to make her anatomy look appealing to her husband because that's one instance where a woman's probably never going to be able to see that.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] And that again, my immediate reaction is that makes me sad. Why would a woman have to go under the knife so that her husband is happy with whatever like that. My initial reaction is to feel sad about that. However, I was talking to my friend just this morning about his wife's mommy makeover and it turns out that some of the reconstruction they did allowed her to have more pleasure in sex. And so it's. I, I'm always torn between, like, resenting how our society makes women contort themselves, to quote, please the male gaze, and just trusting and believing women that they're doing what makes them happy. Does that make sense? That's just. I'm just being honest. That's how I feel.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:35:34] Totally.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:35] I think it's complicated. I, I do know that there's a correlation between how a person feels about themselves in, in, during. During sex and, and how they enjoy having sex too. You know, like if they're confident about their body and how their partner perceives them, they're probably going to enjoy the experience more than if they are insecure about what their body looks like.

Hayley Rawle [00:36:01] I think a labiaplasty too.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:36:03] I've.

Hayley Rawle [00:36:04] I've seen some comments on this that I know that a lot of women do get labiaplasties for insurance can cover it because it can be really uncomfortable and particularly postpartum, as Jesse was talking about. I think that. And this is where it gets complicated, right? It's. Where do you draw those lines of something that's could even be medically necessary or increased Pleasure and things like that. I think that there are a lot of people who probably get a labiaplasty twofold because there is something about the aesthetic and the pressure, and then there's also something about they just want to be comfortable. Jesse even mentioned this in leggings. She felt uncomfortable. And so I think particularly the postpartum element, I think, changes things a bit for me as well, because it maybe feels less about achieving. Achieving the most perfect body and a little bit more about reclaiming something.

John Dehlin [00:36:56] Childhood destroyed my body.

Hayley Rawle [00:36:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:36:58] Having babies.

Hayley Rawle [00:36:59] Yes. So I think that there's. It's complicated, and I think both of those things are true at once, for

Alyssa Witbeck [00:37:05] sure, which is why I think the discussion is important to have because, you know, it is so multifaceted. And I think the fact that these are many women who've had babies very young, you know, as young as 16, I think just adds a really interesting element to this because they're experiencing their 20s and early 30s very differently than the rest of the country. So they're getting, you know, cosmetic augmentations much earlier than other people who are doing it for a postpartum reason, you know, and things like that. And it is, you know, we talked about this in the. The Plastic Surgery episode, but you simultaneously have, you know, cosmetic reasons.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:37:40] You also have medical reasons, adjustments. There's also, like, the doing it for yourself, but there's also the social capital of why you feel like you're doing it for yourself. There's also the male gaze. Like, it is just a very. We're in a very complicated spectrum with that, I guess.

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:56] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:37:57] One other thing I wanted to say quickly with the. I don't think this maybe applies as much to plastic surgery, but with what you were saying, John, about makeup or hair, for example, as you were saying that, I was thinking, oh, I love. I almost feel bad sometimes that men don't get it, get dolled up. I mean, they can and they. They should, and many do. But I almost feel like, oh, I feel so lucky that I get to wear high heels and get dressed up, because I love doing that. I think it's fun. I think it's self expression. And I think that that can be written off very easily as vayne.

Hayley Rawle [00:38:27] And in the show, you know, these women who are obviously gorgeous and obviously pay a lot of attention to their appearance. Yes, of course, you cannot divorce that from the fact that there is social capital that comes with that, that there's the male gaze. But also, you know, Jesse, she's a hairdresser. She probably Just loves hair and has a lot of joy in doing hair and presenting her hair. A. So I think it can definitely be. There's a lot going on.

John Dehlin [00:38:53] There's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Just do whatever makes you happy. Right. Do whatever makes you feel good. Oh, gosh. So a couple comments that I think are worth mentioning. Lauren writes, I'd much rather my daughter be talking about her vulva with her girlfriends than with a male bishop.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:39:15] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:39:17] Ryan writes. Ryan Dickinson. Jesse said her labiaplasty was because her meat curtains. Sorry. He's. She says. And that it bothered her physically bothered her with chafing and rubbing. So that's. That's important to understand. I was just gonna say, how would it be to have your. Your labia discussed on national television? Like, that's.

Hayley Rawle [00:39:41] And shown. I mean, Jesse Foley. I mean, it was blocked out, but she showed her labia to the camera people, you know? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:50] And we. And. And I. I mean, this is a spoiler, but Taylor's childbirth at the very end.

Hayley Rawle [00:39:54] Yeah, I know.

John Dehlin [00:39:56] In childbirth position.

Hayley Rawle [00:39:58] Yeah, I know. Again, maybe it's just the Mormon in me, but I think it's brave. And I think that certainly the messaging of it all is not perfect, but I do think that it's a huge break from what we've traditionally seen out of this community. And so I think, you know, I think there's something to be said for it.

John Dehlin [00:40:20] It's like a hard reaction to traditional orthodox Mormonism, which is never talk about anything, ever of substance. Right. Just total elephants in the room. Really quickly, Heather writes, maybe the church isn't worried about the women, but how actions of the men reflect on the church. A recovering addict, an unfaithful husband, and an abusive gambler smells like patriarchy. Thank you for that other r. That's a good. That's a good comment. Thanks for the super chat. Okay, so that was. That was a good. That was a good take. I'm glad we covered that. All right, so now we talk. We're talking pre Vegas now. The. The girls are getting ready to plan a Vegas trip, and this is kind of where Zach starts to really become the villain, I think. What. What Anything y' all want to bring up about sort of the run up to going to Vegas.

Zach Controls Jen's Vegas Trip

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:15] Oh, I think we have a video, actually.

John Dehlin [00:41:18] Should we. Should we. Okay. Okay. Should we play that? All right, this is what Zach. Our friend Zach. This is what Zach thinks about. About Jen going to Vegas. Right. Okay. It's hard to get these names straight.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:41:33] How would you feel if you went to A Magic Mike concert.

Video Clip 2 [00:41:39] Do you want to go to that? No, I. I think it's more of, like, a funny thing.

Video Clip 2 [00:41:42] If we do end up going.

Video Clip 2 [00:41:43] Being divorced and taking care of two kids would be kind of tough.

Video Clip 2 [00:41:47] So I guess you make the decision. I mean.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:41:53] Oh.

John Dehlin [00:41:54] Oh, my gosh. Okay. Your. Your takes. We'll have. Alyssa, you go first.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:41:57] Yeah.

Guest [00:41:58] This is.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:41:58] I mean, Zach has been giving red flags for much of this season, and this is when, you know, we really start to see, oh, things are getting bad. She can't even make a joke or even ask an actual question about something that they'll do before he is threatening divorce.

Hayley Rawle [00:42:13] And.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:42:14] And also saying that, you know, you'll be divorced and you'll be the one taking care of the two kids. I'm just gonna bail. Like, there's. It's just reeks.

Hayley Rawle [00:42:24] Agreed. I also think something that's put on display with that interaction and then the subsequent events that follow is they obviously aren't capable or they don't know how to just sit down and Jen say, hey, there's a high likelihood that when we're in Vegas, I'm getting a sense that this is something that might happen. How do you feel about that? And then he could say, you know what? That actually makes me feel a little insecure, or, I'm a little worried about. Blah, blah, blah. I. I don't think his.

Hayley Rawle [00:42:55] I mean, I actually do think his reactions in a lot of ways are just wrong, period. But I think it's fair and valid that he has thoughts. I mean, that's what a marriage is. You discuss that. That interaction is so crazy to see because they're trying to talk about something, and they're not even getting close to actually talking about the thing. And then you see the repercussions of that because they weren't able to just get on the same page about something. And you also see Jen kind of trying to prime him a little bit of, like, how would you feel about this? Instead of just saying, hey, if my friends go do this fun thing, I want to attend, let's talk about it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:31] Yeah. The communication skills are really lacking in Mormonism, because we usually are primed to not discuss hard things and. And avoid conflict and avoid feeling bad or icky about things, because then the spirit can't be there. And that. That really shows throughout, you know, these types of conversations on the show.

Hayley Rawle [00:43:57] I think there's a lot of toxic masculinity on display, too, where Zach obviously feels triggered by this idea, but he doesn't feel like, he can be vulnerable and just say, that would actually be really hard for me, and here's why. Or, hey, I'd like to set a boundary around that, and here's where I'm coming from. So instead, he makes a very cruel joke and counts that as communication because he's afraid to say how he actually feels or what actually comes up for him.

John Dehlin [00:44:24] Was it a joke or a threat? I was unclear.

Hayley Rawle [00:44:27] I found maybe a little bit of both. I don't know. I'm curious how you took it. I think it was. I think he was making his point clear. Don't do that. I don't think he was threatening, per se. Maybe a little bit. I don't know.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:41] I mean, that's why eventually ended up happening. Kind of like, we're done.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:44:46] So, yeah, it, to me, felt like, you know, a preemptive threat because she was kind of. It was sad, you know. You know what you were saying, Hayley, how they weren't able to have this actual discussion. Like, Jen was not in a position where she felt like she knew how to approach her husband in this conversation, at least, and, like, actually assert something or, like, take control of the conversation and say, like, we need to have a conversation about this. She's mentioning it very, very passively. And then his response is very aggro.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:45:16] Yeah. And. And, yeah, I think it just felt kind of like a preemptive threat. And it also didn't. She did not seem all surprised by this. And that seemed to be Jen's reaction for much of this, these few episodes, is she just kind of, like, nods. You know, I think if this was something that happened the first time, if he made such an insane comment and this was the first time she said it, she'd be like, are you serious? You know, or she would have more of a reaction.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:45:40] But I think that was telling, too. That made it feel more threatening to me just because, like, it was clear that this was not the first time this conversation had had, you know, similar ghost conversations before.

Hayley Rawle [00:45:51] Yeah. And she wasn't laughing, to your point. So maybe more threat, less joke.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:56] Yeah. There are two thoughts that occurred to me when watching this behavior from Zach, and both are kind of scary. One of them is just think about, you know, Jen is the breadwinner, the one that works her ass off to. To pay the bills, and Zach is basically just going to school and doing nothing and probably spending money. Well, gambling and.

John Dehlin [00:46:23] And then.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:24] And then.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:46:25] But.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:25] But then he also feels like he has, you know, he's the decision maker of the house, and how much of that is him feeling threatened that. That he can't have a say because Jen is the breadwinner. And then kind of, like, overly compensating for that insecurity or. But then there's also this scenario where, like, if he's behaving this way now when he's not even bringing any. Any money to home, how would it be when he's a surgeon and he's the one.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:47:00] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:00] Making all the money.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:47:02] That's such a good point. Like, we're seeing this, you know, kind of, like, toxic provider mentality from someone who's not really doing much of anything. From what we see, like, the way that Jen talks, she's the one that's doing the cleaning. She's the one that's doing the child care. She's the one that's the breadwinner. And yet that still has been taught from his church that he is ahead of the household, and so he acts that way. And he doesn't even have, you know, financial backing of him being a surgeon that he will presumably have in the future. I also wanted to mention that I think it was.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:47:29] I'm really glad that the producers showed the conversations of some of the other wives having this conversation with their spouse so we could see, like, a normal, more healthy conversation about it. Like, Denis and Brett, Like, Brett made a couple jokes, but I. This is. This is not really relevant, but I thought it was funny. Like, they're talking about Vegas. He, like, brings out her temple bag and is like, hey, I have an outfit for you.

Hayley Rawle [00:47:49] And they're like, a long pioneer dress.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:47:51] Yeah, exactly. And, like, it's just fun. Like, they're just. He knows, you know, he's like, he kind of. And I think that kind of showed, like, pioneer dress. I know what Vegas is. Like, you're going to be doing the opposite of this. He makes a couple jokes about, like, hamburgers and steak, and Denise, like, kind of laughs like, it's very casual. And then Macy and her husband have, like, a very sweet conversation where he's like, I trust you. And she's like, are you jealous? He's like, why would I be jealous? Like, I trust you. I know you're not going to do something that would make me uncomfortable. And I think just, you know, having that propped up against Jen and Zach's conversation just makes it a little bit more obvious that what is going on there is not normal or healthy.

Hayley Rawle [00:48:30] Agreed.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:31] Or very normal in Mormonism.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:48:33] There you go. Very normal, very common. Not healthy.

Guest 2 [00:48:36] Yeah.

Mormon Patriarchy and Controlling Husbands

Hayley Rawle [00:48:37] To that point, one thing I wanted to say before we get into all of this with Zach is. Zach is. I mean, I don't know if we could even call him an outlier. I think the way that he reacts to. To these things is very aggressive. I think that the dynamic that is portrayed even for really kind, more loving Mormon men, that dynamic is still very real. And that was something interesting for me. Watching my husband would never in a trillion years treat me that way. However, we have struggled and are continuing to work out these similar dynamics of, not the Chippendales stuff, but of figuring out, you know, who decision making and figuring out whose career we're weighing against whose and how in childcare.

Hayley Rawle [00:49:26] I just think it's important to note that although Zach might seem easy to distance from because of just how terrible he is, even in loving Mormon marriages, these dynamics, unfortunately, are still going to come out because of what the messaging in church is around a man's place in the household and a woman's place in the household. And so I think that that's a really important thing to say up front. And to Alyssa's point about reality tv, yes, this is exaggerated, but it's allowing us to see how this happens on a whole scale and spectrum.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:49:58] And I also think when we're in a community of even, you know, these good marriages, where that patriarchal system is still very common, it makes abusive relationships seem less bad. You know, when you're comparing an equal marriage to an abusive marriage, then it's obvious just how drastically different it is. When you're showing a loving but patriarchal marriage to an abusive marriage, you can still see the difference, but you might be able to make more justification, say, oh, you know, maybe he's just a little angry. We just need to, like, talk some things down. And I think that is something that really happens for Mormons and for young Mormons all the time.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:50:34] And I see that happening for Jen because when she's trying to kind of like, justify things, she's saying, like, God is number one, you know, and she. And she's saying up front, like, I know that you're going to be the provider one day. Like, not even just in this conversation, but the way that she talks about her husband, apart from, like, these really traumatic scenes, there is still that very clear hierarchy that she doesn't seem to be uncomfortable with or even tries to shy away from on camera. It just is mentioned very casually. Oh, yeah, Zach is not a nice person when the house isn't clean.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:51:03] Oh, Zach, he would, you know, wish we had nannies when I'm gone on a trip. You know, like those types of very subtle comments before really hits the fan. Can I say on Mormon stories, it's authentic. Yeah, exactly.

Guest 2 [00:51:16] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:18] Well, one, One more thing. Mormonism rewards this kind of patriarchy hierarchy. If you look at general authorities, you know, the. The wives are always meek, are always probably the ones that stayed at home and never had careers. And just, I mean, look no further than David Bedner and his relationship. At least what is displayed on, you know, in public with his wife, you know, and how his wife is always like, you know, super me I need to bring talked about on. On Reddit about how blatant that that dynamic is. And I have close family members. One close family member.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:52:04] Who

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:07] Him.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:52:08] He.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:09] This. He has. He hasn't been able to get a calling higher than state residencies. And he knows or. Or blames. Blames it a little bit on. On his wife for not of wife that a general authority usually would have and be. I mean, this is just really how Mormonism rewards this man for following this patriarchy hierarchy in the home, I think.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:52:39] And Jen is in such. Sorry, one more thing. Jen is in such a difficult position because I do feel like, because she has said before that she expects her husband, he's going to be the provider at one point in a decade or whenever Zach finishes medical school. And so she's kind of.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:52:54] But she seems to kind of feel guilty about being the breadwinner right now. She's simultaneously, like, proud and excited. She says a lot of positive things. But she's also seems, you know, just from those comments of like, Zach's a little bit uncomfortable, like, she's kind of wrestling with that, which I think a lot of women, Mormon and ex Mormon women, something that I'm still struggling with is like, how much do I want to work? How much am I pushing against the patriarch? How much am I leaning into it? I think that's just a question that, like, a lot of mothers in particular have.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:53:18] And unfortunately, Jen is in the role where she's doing most of the childcare, most of the cleaning, she's the breadwinner. And, and he also can't emasculate Zach. And so she's always kind of pivoting to make it seem like he's still in charge. And I think in some ways, unfortunately, her being an influencer, being in this job that is typically seen as like, less important, she's able to, you know, kind of like, take a backseat. If she was having a higher, a more respected position, maybe she would like, be seen as more of like the powerhouse in the family. But because she's just in this, like, quote unquote, like, feminine, silly job that still makes an insane amount of money, she's able to still kind of make it seem like Zach still is in control.

Alyssa Witbeck [00:53:57] She's kind of like this passive, meek. She's just dancing, you know, the, the. It was just this hobby that's getting her this money. She doesn't have to like. Anyway. She's still actively trying to not emasculate him because he can't take it.

John Dehlin [00:54:10] Yeah. We're super thrilled to have Julie. Dr. Julie Hicks. In the comments, she writes, hey, Julie.

Hayley Rawle [00:54:17] Hey, Julie.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] She writes, direct communication is rare with LDS couples I've worked with, especially about taboo topics. She also writes the dynamic of female breadwinner plus do most of childcare and household chores is not uncommon. It's so out of balance. I believe they called that second shift when I was doing grad work like that. The woman who works outside the home also ends up doing most of the household duties. And we're thrilled to have you, Dr. Hanks, thanks for joining. Really quickly. So I'm not a Zach apologist. Yes. On horrible communication skills. Yes. That was a horrible thing to say. I am truly, genuinely worried about Jen.

The Chippendales Outing and Male Fragility

John Dehlin [00:54:58] So I will say yes to everything y' all have said. And I did, I did try and put myself in his shoes for a second. Not his shoes, but in the shoes of a faithful orthodox Mormon husband who's being told that his wife is going to go to a strip club for men, for women, where men strip and show their rears and maybe even more to the audience, like, and where there's alcohol and that it's going to be on national television. Now. I'm 55. I still haven't tried alcohol or marijuana. I've never been to a strip club. And I'm 10 years out of my excommunication.

John Dehlin [00:55:49] Like, I could do all that. I'm sure if I contextualize it properly, Margi would say, yeah, go to a strip club, you know, whatever. But I don't. That's how Mormon I still am. So if I'm 10 years out and all that stuff is something I would never do even now, or don't think I would do.

John Dehlin [00:56:05] I can understand a husband not communicating it the way he did. But, like, this is not what we do. This is not just not aligned with our values. Going to a strip club and having it be on national television is a deal breaker. So horrible way to express it. If I'm actually trying to put on my Mormon hat. That is an outrageous, potentially deal killing decision for a spouse to make. Or am I wrong? Am I wrong?

Hayley Rawle [00:56:39] I would love just old. I was actually having self reflection in the opposite direction because I've been seeing discourse around the Chippendales and seeing a lot of people never Mormon people who are saying that is a big deal. I would not want my partner to go to a strip club. I personally feel like Chippendales is so different.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:02] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:57:03] And then a strip club than a strip club.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:57:05] I can still see how so.

John Dehlin [00:57:06] Because I've never been.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:07] It's a show. It's not, you know, it's a strip club. It's not a bar where you go to get. Maybe find a strip.

John Dehlin [00:57:16] But there's lab dancer. I mean, there's lap dances.

Hayley Rawle [00:57:19] I think one of the biggest differences, which I've gotten some heat for because Jesse and I talked about this and perhaps this is a double standard. I do think that Chippendales number one, it's campy, it's less sexy and it's more silly. Campy, goofy. I also think there's so much to say about the fact that the whole world is centered around the male gaze. And for women to go to something like a male show. Yes, A strip show that is catered to the female gaze. I think there's something about that that makes it quite different for me as well. Because I. Speaking for myself, if I were to go to a Chippendale show, it would be hilarious.

Hayley Rawle [00:58:03] It would be. I mean, you see it in the way the women are watching. I just think the women going to a Chippendale show is so differently motivated than even potentially women going to a strip club. It just is. It. It's apples and oranges to me. And yes, they're related. And yes, there's nudity. Yes, to me put her hands on the Chippendales guys, but whatever. But I just never would have seen Chippendales as something to. I just never would have compared it to a strip club.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:32] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:58:32] I think it's so different. And I think, again, just to emphasize, I think the fact that it's catered toward heterosexual women because it is very rare that that gaze is catered to. And because the female gaze, I think is so much less in that instance, about arousal. It's about fun and it's about play. And I think that makes it different too.

John Dehlin [00:58:56] But Hayley, how much of that critique or analysis is post Mormon feminist Hayley vs Orthodox believing Mormon Hayley? And there's no right answer there.

Hayley Rawle [00:59:08] No, it's a good question. I tried to put myself in that frame of mind thinking if I was a full blown Mormon. I mean, I'm maybe hard to ask that too, because my husband's the type. I just don't think he would have ever really cared. But I mean, they talk about this on the show. Macy, who's Mormon, she's gone to Chippendales with her mom, I heard. I believe it was. I was listening to a podcast. I believe it was Demi who said she went to church after the show aired and she had multiple women in the ward coming up to her and saying, oh, we've been to Chippendales, like active Mormon women. So I don't know. I'm sure there's a wide spectrum, but

John Dehlin [00:59:47] I basically, I'm old.

Hayley Rawle [00:59:48] That's what you're saying, John, your age is showing. In a nutshell. I don't know. What do you think?

Alyssa Witbeck [00:59:55] Yeah, I mean, I think that, like, I think it's really important to make the distinction between Chippendales and stripping just for, like, the intention. You know, some of the acts are the same. You know, these shirtless men, very ripped. But like women that are going to a Chippendale show, they're going to a performance, they're going to, like, something fun, they're not going to get aroused. Where I think the intention of a strip show is like, you know, I'm trying to do this secretly. I'm like trying to hoping to like, get it on. You know, maybe I'll even bring someone home and pay them. I don't actually know. I don't really know what I'm talking about, but, like, that's my perception.

Guest 2 [01:00:26] Yes.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:00:26] And John, I think to your point, like, Zach might not know the difference and he might have thought, like, you are going to go and like, have a stripper dance on you and like, you hope to take you back to the room. Like, it seems like that was kind of what he was thinking. And I was trying to think about myself, my Mormon brain. And like, I think even then I'm pretty sure my mom and my sister and I talked about going to a Chippendale show in Vegas and like, pose in front of the pictures when I was like a teenager, like, just for fun, like, very silly, like I was very, very Mormon. But this is, this is cringey to admit on live, but I've already started. So, like, I can't wait.

John Dehlin [01:01:03] Why stop now?

Hayley Rawle [01:01:03] Why stop now?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:01:04] There's this time and again. I know it's not. Not great. But, like, remember when, like, Hollister, like, at the mall, they'd be, like, the guys out, the shirtless. Shirtless. I was always the one to, like, go, like, up and pose. And I was, like, very. But, like, it was silly, you know? And, like, my mom thought it was funny, and, like, that was just kind of how it was. So to me, that's, like, how Chippendales is. But I do think is. And so, okay, I have two things that I want to, like, really emphasize about this. One of them is that I think every relationship deserves to have its own boundaries, and we can honor those.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:01:32] And I think if Zach is not comfortable and if Jen is not comfortable, I think, you know, what is okay for Jesse's relationship does not necessarily have to be okay for Zach's relationship. What is okay for Macy's grandma might not necessarily be okay for Michaela's husband. And I think that that is normal. And every relationship needs to work on those communication skills to be able to establish those boundaries so that both parties are feeling respected. Neither party is feeling like they are being, like, being submissive in this decision process.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:02:01] And I also think what tends to happen in this conversation, I think the Chippendales is, unfortunately, a red herring. I think we're arguing, and when I say we, I mean, like, the discourse collectively. I think a lot of people are watching this show and trying to debate whether or not Chippendales is acceptable or not. And I think that's a red herring for the actual problems, which is Zach's behavior. And I think that's really the core that is, you know, the. The shocking element of this.

John Dehlin [01:02:30] We'll move on after this. One final comment I'll make is that Mormons in 2024 are getting beat down over their pornography use. And so to an unsophisticated orthodox Mormon man in the bubble, I could see him saying, I'm. I'm getting the shit beat out. I'll say shit just because you want me to.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:02:49] I'm.

Guest 2 [01:02:50] We're pro.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] Sweet. I'm getting the shit beat out of me because I can't stop looking at pornography. And yet all you women are going to basically see live pornography. I can see that being a very natural orthodox Mormon thought.

Hayley Rawle [01:03:05] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:03:05] Or concern, anyway, not to apologize for him. Speaking of apologies for Zach Gerardo, we have a clip about comments from Zach and his mom. Did you want to say anything about it to set it up?

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:16] Let's just watch it.

John Dehlin [01:03:17] Okay, let's watch the clip.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [01:03:21] To the surprise, of absolutely no one. Zach's family has now reacted to this show, so we're gonna read what they had to say before. First, thank you to this Reddit page for saving these screenshots before the comments got deleted. Let's start with Zach's brother, A.J. zach is one of the best guys in the world. Ask anyone who knows him personally. I'm beyond saddened by the fake manufactured representation of him. I'm extremely disappointed in Hulu, his wife, and these fake girls. This backs up the very reason I decided never to be shown on the show. It's a fake, nasty representation of an amazing religion and people I pray for.

Video Clip 3 [01:04:00] My brother and others deeply affected by this nonsense. What a riveting statement. Followed by a statement from Zach's mother, Krista. I love everything about this statement. As someone who's been personally affected by this, let me tell you, Hulu is in the business of destroying marriages and families. So now I pray we can all judge less and love more and let our lights continue to shine to show the world who we really are.

Video Clip 3 [01:04:31] Well, Jacques has shown his true colors to all of us. He is an ass who does not deserve a single dollar that Jen has made. He does not deserve her supporting him through medical school. And he should not have treated Jen the way that he did that night in Vegas. So I hope this was a very eye opening moment for all of you.

John Dehlin [01:04:54] Really quick, Gerardo, you'll get this joke. Remember Mark Twain's comment about the Book of Mormon witnesses? And he basically makes the joke that, that, you know, we can't. We have to believe the Book of Mormon comes from God because the entire Whitmer family spoke up in favor of it. Reminds me of this comment. It's like, well, his brother, his mom, he's a nice guy, right?

Guest 2 [01:05:19] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:20] Any. Any reactions?

Hayley Rawle [01:05:22] Honestly, maybe to that point, John, maybe I'm, I don't know, naive, but I was actually pretty surprised about how hard they came out in defense. I think it's still very much within reason that a mom could come out and say, like, we were disappointed to see our son saying those sorts of things and like, we're really proud of him for going to therapy and trying to figure this out to be better.

Hayley Rawle [01:05:50] Obviously, yes, it's his mom, it's his brother, but I still think there was an opportunity there for them to even say, yeah, this is not what we stand for. And we're hoping that Zach works through it. And instead, the doubling, tripling, quadrupling down was really disappointing to see and made me Much more afraid for Jen because I can only imagine what kind of messaging is happening behind closed doors. And I think that just contributes to the gaslighting where there's no admitting what is just objectively terrible behavior from Zach's family members to his wife too.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:06:32] You know, and like the comment to that. And ask anyone who knows him personally, like. Well, I think Jen knows him pretty personally. You know, like, it was just, it's, I think so disappointing to see them trying to not only defend Zach in something that is so blatantly inappropriate, but then also criticizing Jen in the process, who is like the victim of just some really horrific texts and conversations that we'll get to. It's, it's really sad.

John Dehlin [01:06:59] Is the hashtag Free gen come out yet?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:07:01] Probably should.

Hayley Rawle [01:07:02] Let's start it.

John Dehlin [01:07:03] Yeah, go ahead.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:05] Yeah, I mean it's, it's clear from the episodes that there is power dynamic happening because of the affluence of Zach's family. I think, I don't know, we've talked about, I don't think, I don't know if we've talked about this, but she, you know, she mentions that her mom is literally a person that works cleaning the hospital where Zach's dad is a surgeon on. And they're.

John Dehlin [01:07:31] And there. Are they immigrants? Legal immigrants? Are they. Do you know?

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:34] I, I'm. Yeah, I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [01:07:37] But they're from. Her mom's from South America.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:39] Right?

John Dehlin [01:07:39] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:40] Right. So. So yeah, I mean, I mean she's. She says she grew up really, really poor and not, I mean she, she talks about before going on social Media, she was working 15 an hour job.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:07:52] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:52] Something like that. So, so yeah, I mean the, the power dynamic must feel really hard trying

Guest [01:08:00] to

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:02] do everything in her power to, to look good to Zach's family. And there's a video that I saw yesterday on Tick Tock that made me really sad about that. Kind of really shows how she might be treated in the family. I mean, I think the show shows it pretty well. But, but this was kind of sad to me and a little bit jaw dropping. But we, we can play it.

John Dehlin [01:08:29] This is it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:30] Okay. All right, let's play it.

Zach's Family Attacks Jen Online

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [01:08:35] Remember when Jen Affleck's mother in law and brother in law and just Zach's family went online to attack Jen and Hulu for Zach's narcissistic behavior? They literally did not blame anything on Zach, of course. Well, this was posted in a forum and I think it's very interesting. Crystal, who is Zach's mother, who already made Comments in regards to the same secret lives of Mormon wives made posts for her daughter in laws on their birthdays. And I do think it's very interesting how different these two posts are. So for Jen's birthday she posted one photo of their family and she said it's this fun, spirited, music loving, hard working, beautiful girl's birthday today.

Video Clip 4 [01:09:17] We love and appreciate you, Jen. Are so grateful for the mix you add to our family. And Zach's brother aj, I'm assuming this is his wife and this is what she wrote on Bae's birthday birthday. Happy birthday bae, we love you. All in caps. When your child finds someone who loves them, believes in them and makes them the best version of themselves, it is a gift. That is what Bailey is to aj, our family and me. A gift. I love you bae. Happy birthday. When Crystal wrote the mix you bring into our family, probably because Jen is not blonde with blue eyes, she's half Ecuadorian.

Video Clip 4 [01:09:52] The mix just sounds kind of condescending. So basically it's like, yeah, Jen, thanks for bringing the mix to our family. You're so exotic to bae. You are our gift.

Video Clip 4 [01:10:02] We love you. She said happy birthday like three times

Video Clip 4 [01:10:04] in one post today. This says it all and I just think Jen deserves so much better.

John Dehlin [01:10:14] Thoughts?

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:20] It's hard because I've. I kind of have personal experiences with this, but so I can definitely see it and, and I feel bad for, for Jen a little bit. It is, I mean it. It is clear why the mom would not take any, or put any responsibility on Zach and, and instead blame Jen and Hulu for the betrayal of Zach.

Hayley Rawle [01:10:43] But yeah, I think the Hulu slander is just so silly because we see Zach's behavior, I mean, as everything unfolds.

John Dehlin [01:10:57] He's probably on his best behavior, by the way.

Hayley Rawle [01:10:58] Yes.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:10:59] Because he's being filmed. Yes.

Hayley Rawle [01:11:01] And he refuses. I. Someone pointed this out. As everything unfolds after Chippendales, he refuses to get on a call with her because he thinks that that will be filmed. And instead he texts her. And he probably does not think that she's going to show her text. And thank God that she did. But she showed her text, Read her text out loud. That's how we know what Zach said. No one made that up. No one edited that a certain way. That was his words. I mean, there's a screenshot of the text. It's terrible, it's worse, it's awful. And so to blame it on Hulu, I think is just goes to show how far they're willing to go to justify Zach's behavior.

Hayley Rawle [01:11:41] And yeah, I think those birthday posts show that this is probably much deeper as well than the show. It's probably not. They probably didn't love the dynamic for many reasons in the first place. And so it makes sense that now that this is all unfolding, they're going to continually turn against Jen. And now in this case, a whole television network.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:12:06] It does really just seem like Jen is just kind of is just getting pressured and, you know, hurt from all sides on this family situation. And it's also sad because we can see that she's trying so hard to make it work. You know, Jen is the way that she's presenting on this TV show. And they did say that, like, she. Her light is dimmed when she's near Zach, that she's much funkier, much more, like, outgoing. But what we see of Jen is a very meek person. We see her, like, sing over and over again, like, I'm worried Zach's going to be upset set. And, you know, even when they go into the Chippendales, they don't even go to the show.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:12:40] They go backstage. So Layla, who's the single one, gets to, like, oil up the guys. Like, it's supposed to be this fun thing for Layla's birthday. And we see Jen just constantly talking about Zach and thinking about Zach and trying to make sure that he's okay. She's looking down, she's refusing to participate. She's saying she's extremely uncomfortable. And I think that just makes it, you know, so much of this conflict, some of this, like, anger toward Jen. It makes it even worse because she was actively trying to, like, stop this from happening because she knew that his response was going to be terrible. And I think that, again, shows that, like, it wasn't just this kind of deal breaker, crazy Chippendales strip thing that would be really triggering for a lot of Mormons and Mormon marriages.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:13:24] This is a pattern that's been going on in the relationship. She's always kind of, like, preemptively trying to make sure that he stays calm and is trying to, like, walk on eggshells around him. And it's just really hard to see.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:36] Yeah, yeah, I agree. So we do have those.

John Dehlin [01:13:40] The.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:41] The a tick tock video that shows the text messages, but I'm not sure if you want to cover.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:46] About the timeline first regarding, you know, what. What took. What happened, you know, the Chippendale show and.

John Dehlin [01:13:53] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:53] Jan leaving. Do you want to discuss.

John Dehlin [01:13:54] Yeah. So listen, so what happens? What happens after, you know, after they decide to go.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:14:00] So. So Jesse decides to go. She's surprising all of the women because I think it's Layla's latest birthday, right? And she's the single one. She's just getting divorced. It's this kind of fun, like, Bachelorette vibe. They go to the Chippendales, they get the backstage pass. Layla gets to oil up the guys. Michaela's husband and Dakota are also uncomfortable that they're at Chippendales. And so all three of these women, Jen, Taylor and Michaela, don't even go to the event at all. They head back to the Airbnb because they don't want to upset their men. The other women, they go to the Chippendales, they're lacking. It's playful that goes down. And then we go back to the Airbnb and, oh, I wrote down a couple things that why did Jen go?

John Dehlin [01:14:47] If there was an option of staying back, why didn't she stay back?

Hayley Rawle [01:14:50] And she was surprised. So I think that there was Jesse. There's moments before they go where Jesse says, I have a surprise for you all. And Jen says is, am I gonna be okay? And Jesse says, well, I think in the eyes of God, you'll be fine, because my God is chill as F is what she actually says. So there is an element. God is chill as F. Yes, Jesse's God. So I guess ex morbid God is. Yeah. And I think that there's obviously an element of surprise that I can imagine is very much a producer, you know, push. Because then they're in the bus on the way to the Chippendale show, and there's some chatter still of, like, Jen's obviously has an inkling of what's about to happen and she's concerned about it.

Hayley Rawle [01:15:36] And then they just walk them immediately backstage. So it's from we don't know what's going on to now the Chippendales dancers are getting oiled up. So Jen, I think another important thing to note here is Jen probably feels pressure to do her job. She is now on a TV show that she is contracted to be on. She is the breadwinner. We've established that. So in another situation where she might just say, hey, I'm actually going to leave, which she. I'm sure, again, she wasn't forced to be there. I also think that it's worth noting that she's trying to do her job, she's trying to further her career.

Hayley Rawle [01:16:11] And so she also has this pressure of, I want to be a good sport, I want to participate but she's obviously uncomfortable. I think the reason she doesn't just leave is because she feels like this is my job to be on the show and. And do what's going on with the show.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:24] Yeah. But she also stays back. Right? Like, she's not engaging with head down with the meet and greet or anything.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:16:30] Like.

Hayley Rawle [01:16:30] Yes. One really interesting thing is then they pull them all for the photo. Because then they take a photo. And that is when she seems most concerned. And so much of her language on a rewatch was about, this doesn't look good. Yeah, this doesn't. This isn't what we stand for. I think it's important to note that because I think there's a difference between Jen being personally uncomfortable to be around shirtless men versus Jen being uncomfortable about how that's going to be perceived by her husband and by the public. But mostly it seems based on her language by the public, the quote that

Alyssa Witbeck [01:17:05] she was saying in that moment when they're deciding to take the picture, she said, I'm shaking right now. Like, being associated with them, meaning the Chippendales, taking pictures with them. It just looks bad. I feel like this goes against everything in my religion. It is disrespectful to my husband. The minute they try and dance on me, I'm a divorced woman. I'm not even kidding.

John Dehlin [01:17:23] Like, that feels like what an orthodox Mormon wife would say.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:17:27] Yeah. And then she said in that same moment, this goes against everything we believe as Mormons. This is disrespectful to my marriage. I am literally telling you I would be a divorced woman.

John Dehlin [01:17:39] Like, that does beg the question of why she's doing it, but I guess it's. She's trying to put him through med school and so she's gotta do reality tv.

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:47] But is she doing it when she was surprised?

Hayley Rawle [01:17:51] She was surprised into that part. She could have ran out of the room.

John Dehlin [01:17:54] Do you believe that? Because Margi said that. I'm like, does she not know?

Hayley Rawle [01:17:58] I think she definitely thought that that's what was going to happen. I think again, going back to the reality TV of it all, I just think she probably is just kind of. I think it's probably happening quickly. She's probably just thinking, okay, how am I going to play this off? And then maybe when she's actually in the moment, she's thinking, oh, this is going to be really bad.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:18:18] And. Yeah, and I think she's also. I think she's also like, hoping. She was like, well, Jesse knows Zach. Like, maybe she won't sign us up for anything crazy. Like, I think she's constantly trying to justify. To project Zach's feelings and the public perception. Like, we never really see. Like, I'm uncomfortable seeing these shirtless men. I feel, like, nervous.

Hayley Rawle [01:18:37] I don't want to be here.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:18:38] I don't want it. Exactly. It's like, this is not going to look good. Zach is going to be mad. I'm going to be divorced. Like, none of it is like her. And none of it, unfortunately, we see over and over again, like, Jen just really is not in a position where she's making many. Is able to make many decisions or has learned how to make decisions. She's put on the bus. And yeah, John, you're like, why doesn't she just leave? And I don't. Mormon women, I don't think, especially in this, like, social dynamic is her job.

Hayley Rawle [01:19:02] She's the youngest of the group.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:19:04] Exactly. I think, like, one of having her.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:07] She's also been judged by all, by the rest of the group for being

Hayley Rawle [01:19:12] new to the group.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:19:13] Like, I just don't feel like she's really been set up to learn how to, like, be able to make these really autonomous choices, you know, like, one way or the other, like, to either stand up to Zack or to stand up to the women. And so what ends up happening is she's disappointing everybody. The girls think that she's being boring. Her husband thinks that she's a terrible person. She's trying to constantly appease everybody. She's looking down. She's trying not to participate. She ends up not telling. I think it was Taylor told Dakota and then Dakota told Zach or someone told someone.

Guest [01:19:43] Who?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:19:44] Someone told Zach. And I just feel so bad for Jen because she really is just trying

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:49] to make everything immediately.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:19:50] Maybe she did.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:51] Yeah. And then.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:19:53] And is trying to be like, oh, yeah, maybe that was the order. And is trying to just be like, you know, as long as I'm not doing anything, she's just. Is just terrible.

Hayley Rawle [01:20:01] One thing that I think was the smoking gun of this whole situation is when Zach finally calls her. So they see the Chippendales. Then they're pulled back into a waiting room before the show. And they do all leave before the show. Well, all Taylor, Jen and Michaela. She gets on the phone with Zach and I wrote down what she said, because she said, can you just think about me, please? Can you just think of me as a human being?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:20:31] And she is sobbing.

Hayley Rawle [01:20:33] Well, she has to ask her partner that she is married to off the bat. This is. I mean, who knows? With editing. But she says to him, as he's probably beginning to lay into her, can you please just think of me as a human being? Like that cut me to my core, thinking that she already knows before they've even begun the conversation, that she will be dehumanized. She knows that for a fact because before they even start talking about it, she has to plead with him to please see her as a human being. That, to me, says so much of what you need to know about how this man has probably historically treated her that she would ever have to ask. You should never have to ask anybody that, much less your partner.

Guest 2 [01:21:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:18] As you were describing, Alyssa, just Jen trying to please everyone, not even probably thinking about herself. That feels like the most Mormon thing we've talked about.

Guest [01:21:28] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:21:29] This entire series. Is that. Does that feel right to you guys?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:21:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:33] Just how lost Mormon women can be trying to please everybody.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:21:36] Yeah. I mean, she's a. She's 24. She's a mom, right?

Guest 2 [01:21:39] 24ish.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:21:40] 25. Mom to two kids. You know, like, it's just like she's already doing so much as an adult at this stage, and she still can't make decisions for herself. She still doesn't know what her own vulva looks like. Like, it's just hard.

Hayley Rawle [01:21:56] I think it's really interesting, too, this point of empowerment, disempowerment happening at once, where you see someone like a Jen who has. She says this in the series. She says, I will be making more than Zach as a surgeon this year. I think she says she's making insane money. I don't even think people can comprehend how much money these women are making. She's making insane money. And to see that even someone who's empowered in that way financially, she's still being treated like this. And also, I think to what you were saying, John, it is the most Mormon thing, but it's in this complete, completely not typical Mormon context because of the influencer stuff.

Hayley Rawle [01:22:37] And maybe we can get into that more at some point. But I think the fact that these women are so. That they're making so much money, but the way that they're doing it, which you nodded to earlier, I think immediately is able to be discounted as opposed to if she was a CEO of a company or what have you. And I just think it's fascinating. I think it's part of what makes the show so interesting to watch is because there's two things happening simultaneously, and you're seeing the Mormonism, but in a context that we're not really used to seeing that Mormonism play out in.

Analyzing Zach and Jen's Relationship Dynamic

John Dehlin [01:23:09] I. I want. Does this video about the show show the actual text? Because I really want to read what's

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:15] on the text, so I want to.

John Dehlin [01:23:16] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:17] So they go to the house

John Dehlin [01:23:20] after Chippendales.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:21] Yeah, after Chip. And. To Jan, Taylor and Ma.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:23:24] Michaela.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:25] Michaela. And they're in the house and Jen is texting back and forth with Zach. I don't think this video was taken during that. I think it's. This is around the time when the. When all the rest arrive. I could be wrong, but we do know that Demi mentioned the morning after that this text went on to till like 2am in the morning. So this could be, you know, probably the. Either at the beginning or, you know, we know that there's so much more than that. So I just want to say that if this is bad, I just can't imagine what. What the rest looked like.

John Dehlin [01:24:02] You mean the texture about this?

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:03] Right.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:24:04] Right.

John Dehlin [01:24:04] And wasn't it weird that he blew 25 grand gambling while he's berating her?

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:09] 2, 500.

John Dehlin [01:24:10] Oh, sorry. I. I apologize. Still.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:15] Wasn't it weird that he blew as a. As a recent college graduate, 2,500 bucks while he's berating her of her money?

Hayley Rawle [01:24:21] Of her.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:24:22] She like gave him as an allowance, basically.

Hayley Rawle [01:24:25] Another thing that the next morning, Dakota kind of outs him on is that one of the reasons Zach wasn't willing to just go talk with Jen is because he was gambling until 2 in the morning. So as soon as he finished up gambling at 2am Then he said, okay, I'll talk to you in person. But as he was sending those texts, I think he was actively gambling too, and he wasn't willing to step away from his gambling to have a conversation with his wife.

John Dehlin [01:24:50] Cringy.

Hayley Rawle [01:24:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:52] Play clip.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:53] Let's do it.

John Dehlin [01:24:53] All right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:00] I just want to give a shout out. I keep forgetting to give a shout out to all these tick tockers. I'm so sorry, Will. Her name is Steph. With that, with that, you. You can, you can see it on the screen. We'll put it on the show. Notes all the. All these people and give them credit.

John Dehlin [01:25:21] They do deserve credit. It's just hard to do a balance all this.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:24] Yeah, I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:25:24] All right.

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [01:25:27] Jen Affleck from the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives made a post in regards to her and Zach, and this most likely is due to Zach getting tons of backlash after the show. And in the post, Jen is saying that basically they were married very young. They were Inexperienced, and they came from different backgrounds. And she also writes, when we were dating, Zach bought me my first laptop when he had $10 in his bank account and I shared my dream of running a marathon. He trained alongside me and ran with me. I told him I want to start my videography business, so he saved up money and bought me my first camera.

Video Clip 5 [01:25:57] He gave me both stability and freedom, which allowed me to post videos online and launch my career on social media. And she goes on to say that they definitely have had struggles in their marriage, but they're going to keep working at it and they love each other. But I just feel like this post should have came from Zach on a public platform. Zach belittled Jen. He said words that he should never say to any woman, especially his wife and mother of his children. And I just don't think Jen should have to be doing this. And I really like Jen, but I just can't with Zach.

Video Clip 5 [01:26:29] And when she says he gave me both stability and freedom. Can we talk about the text that he sent her during the Chippendales episode so we can see some of the text? And this is what he wrote to her. Seriously, I don't want to hear one more thing about your heart. Start taking accountability for your actions in the situation you put yourself in. You're a grown woman. Doesn't matter your intention. You were there. And that's the image you portray of yourself, family, church, etc. Everyone you represent with this platform. And Zach does use the R word. He says, the fact that you had to ask me was, are would you ever find Katie asking Kyle that?

Video Clip 5 [01:27:07] So Katie is Zach's cousin. FYI, Katie had commented about the show and Zach and Jen. Basically, she blamed Hulu. She said, my cousin and his family are amazing people who bent over backwards for these producers only to have their narrative twisted and their son trashed by his own wife. They have done nothing but support Jen and Zach through this whole process and taking care of their children so Zach can try and focus on media, social, school, and Jen can promote this crap show. Zach is the kindest soul, and she goes ahead to defend what Zach did and said, yeah, he overreacted, but he was frustrated.

Video Clip 5 [01:27:38] So basically she blames Hulu and Jen for Zach's narcissistic behavior. Okay, back to the text. So he says, would kds Kyle. That says no because she respects her own values and her husband and would never put herself in that situation. And I think the last sentence of this paragraph says, the fact that we are even having this conversation is sad. And especially after everything with the temple. And then obviously the last paragraph, you really can't see, but you see something that says how dumb you would. You're a worthy temple. Anyways, you get the gist of the text. I expected them to stick together and work through this, but I just can't get on board with Zach. Zach and his family. Yeah, no, thank you.

John Dehlin [01:28:21] Reactions to Zach's text.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:23] I do want to say that in the top is really hard to read what she was saying, but as far as I can tell, she says something like, I'm, I'm sorry, I was naive. So she's basically apologizing, apologizing. And. And Zach is just not accepting the apology.

John Dehlin [01:28:43] So reactions to Zacks, the way he talks to Jen.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:28:46] Yeah, I mean, I think it's devastating. I think, you know, we've talked a lot about how unhealthy we see this relationship to be. And I think,

John Dehlin [01:28:56] like, are you worried for Jen?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:28:58] Very. I'm very, very worried.

John Dehlin [01:28:59] In all seriousness.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:29:00] Yeah, in all seriousness, I'm very worried for Jen. And I think, you know, we never necessarily, we don't necessarily know all the. Of course, we don't know all the dynamics of the relationship, of course we don't know how things are edited, etc. Etc. But the behavior that we're seeing here is verbally abusive and I think is really important for.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:29:20] I don't know, I just think it's important for us to be able to like, recognize that it's his problem. And seeing so many people defending him is also just, just gross because so many people already have a really difficult time getting out of abusive and relationships that are showing abusive behaviors. And so if there's anything to kind of latch onto to show that maybe it's okay or maybe she's the one that's in the wrong, which is just like a classic unhealthy relationship dynamic as well. Is her thinking that she's the one that's making all these mistakes, him blaming her, his family blaming her. And yeah, and she's getting more and more isolated is something that I resonate with and something that makes me nervous for her.

John Dehlin [01:30:01] Hayley?

Hayley Rawle [01:30:03] Yeah, I think that text is almost jaw droppingly textbook. I mean, he talked about the temple, he weaponized the temple against her. He found this one couple, his cousin and their relationship that he could say, oh, if you were only more like Katie, who had values and who had morals. The way that he is weaponizing the church here I think is really, really critical to pay attention to because it's not Even in this ancillary way of, okay, this is. The culture has rubbed off on them. It's him literally saying, you went to the temple and, and now you were in a photo with Chippendale's dancers.

Hayley Rawle [01:30:45] That's what makes you a terrible person. And look at Katie, who is this lovely, wonderful, Mormon temple worthy person. I think it's crazy how explicitly he's weaponizing the temple worthiness of it against her and is showing how directly he's probably using the fuel of Mormon worthiness and shame and guilt against his own wife. And that's what I think was so sad and impactful to me about that text message. And I'm really glad that it got captured because we see it's not even an indirect correlation. I don't think anyone was saying it was, but the how direct it is that he's using temple worthiness in his abuse is just really terrible to see.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:31:35] And not only is it temple worthiness, but in the temple, you know, women are vowing to hearken unto their husbands. And Jen and Zach got married in December of 2019. And I do know that the temple ceremony was changed in January of 2019 so that women aren't hearkening onto their husbands anymore. I don't know if Jen went to the temple on her own before that, but I'm pretty sure Zach did. I was under the impression that he served a mission. And so it's very likely, if not almost confirmed, that he went through the temple when women were vowing to hearken unto their husbands. And regardless of whether or not that was actually part of their exact temple ritual ceremony, that is just what the temple has represented.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:32:12] So much of the temple is deeply sexist and deeply hierarchical of relationships and marriage. And I think that is a super common way that, like, abusive men like to take control of their wives and be able to use it while justifying God is through the temple. Because it's also. It's not correlatory, correlate correlation anyway.

Guest [01:32:30] It's.

Hayley Rawle [01:32:31] It's literal.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:32:31] You know, we see it in the doctrine of the temple.

John Dehlin [01:32:34] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:36] Isn't it alarming that this is the kind of people that are going to become doctors in Utah?

Hayley Rawle [01:32:42] Yes. I've seen memes that were like. Because, you know, towards the end, Jen says she's talking about mom talk and Zach says, I don't really care. And someone said, imagine going to Zach as your heart surgeon and you, you say.

John Dehlin [01:32:53] Or your gynecologist.

Hayley Rawle [01:32:54] Yes, yes. But they were like, if you went to Zach and said, I'm having heart palpitations. And he says, I don't really care.

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:01] I know people who have been denied prep by infectious disease doctors in Utah because they think they, they believe it causes promiscuity, like as recent as, like just like a couple years ago.

Hayley Rawle [01:33:16] So unethical.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:33:18] That's crazy.

John Dehlin [01:33:20] Yeah. Part of something, you know, when we think about how Mormon is this, like, there's the question of, you know, every religion and secular groups too, are going to have bad apples. So there is the question of, is Zach just a bad apple? But every, every tradition and secular folks too are going to have bad apples. Or is Zach giving orthodox Mormon male cultural vibes? Right. And so I do think it's fair to ask that question. Is Zach representative? I mean, that we, we, we sort of click baited the title, you know, as our, you know, Mormon Husbands Jerks. Right. And is it fair to extrapolate Zach to Mormon husbands generally, or is it unfair? Do you want to try and tackle that, Alyssa?

Guest [01:34:14] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:34:14] I mean, unfortunately, you know, we're looking at the discourse and the response, and we're seeing so many women who are responding saying, I used to be married to a guy like Zach. I was in a relationship with a guy like Zach. Even, you know, Jesse and Macy both said, like, hey, I was in relationships with people like this. And my first marriage was with an abusive person. And it was very similar to this relationship. You know, how it started off this way. And I think it was especially interesting to watch this and see, like, the way that the church and the temple in particular were used.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:34:45] I've never, I mean, I've seen a lot of unhealthy relationships played out on tv. And I've been like, oh, this feels like, this feels reminiscent for a lot of different reasons. But I've never seen a relationship dynamic that was playing off of the church and using and the language that they were using about God, about the temple, about worthiness, about garments, and then him throwing in these, like, really verbally abusive language. It was really shocking. I've never seen that, like, represented on a TV show. And I think it's really important for, you know, all of us within the Mormon community to see this and see that it's not an uncommon, it's not just a bad apple.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:35:17] And this isn't saying that all Mormon husbands are bad, but it is saying that there is a lot of doctrinal reasoning that can justify a lot of these behaviors. And I think that has justified a lot of these behaviors for a really long time. And I Think not only is it important for people that are in the church to be able and out of the church, but just that are part of this Mormon spectrum to look at Zach and say, I wonder if he's onto something here or, like, if there's something more going on here. But then seeing all the comments, seeing all the stories, seeing all the ways that not only are people experiencing abuse, but are experiencing abuse that is being justified by Mormon doctrine that is still being taught.

Hayley Rawle [01:35:54] Yeah, I think of it. I. I agree completely. I think of it a lot of times as fuel to the fire. I think that Mormon doctrine and culture can catalyze this type of behavior. It can exacerbate this type of behavior. Certainly you have abusive men who grew up all sorts of ways, and they

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:12] can justify it, too.

Hayley Rawle [01:36:13] Exactly.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:36:14] Yes.

Hayley Rawle [01:36:14] And you see that in the response, right? I mean, you would like to think that if any mother saw her son behaving this way, she would, you know, like, if I saw my child behaving that way. But I think so much to Alyssa's point of the response and the reaction, people chiming in that they felt this way, but also seeing how easily this type of behavior gets swept under the rug because, well, he's a. He's going to med school, and he's a good Mormon boy who comes from this good Mormon family, I think that that is super, super present. So, yes, he's maybe on the worst end of the spectrum, but I do think that this is something that happens.

Hayley Rawle [01:36:50] And I also think, to your point, Alyssa, seeing this play out on TV is really powerful because we're also seeing an abusive relationship where we're seeing the dynamics of the fact that they got married incredibly young and that they had kids incredibly young. And that's not something that's often represented on tv, but is so typical of the Mormon experience, where even if it's not this level of abuse, if there's any sort of abuse or even just toxic dynamics, things change a lot when you're 24 years old and you have two kids. That's. And you got married when you were 20. And Demi makes this comment during the fallout.

Hayley Rawle [01:37:23] She says, yeah, it's because Mormons are getting married before their brains fully developed. And I think that's a huge part of what's happening here as well. And that is absolutely influenced in a huge way by Mormon doctrine and culture.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:37:38] And I think another part that is so difficult about this is that Jen, it clearly, she recognizes that something is wrong. She's able to articulate it. She kind of intellectualizes. It seems like she thinks that if she's naming that he is being, like, narcissistic or that there's these problems, like, maybe it will help. And that is the first step. Like, that's a very good thing for her to be able to do, but it's not fully solving the problem. But I do think that, like, Mormon women that are in these unhealthy relationships are set up for failure based on, like, the belief in the atonement. I think the atonement can have a lot of really wonderful elements, of course, but that is a really common way that abusive men in particular can try and, like, hold on to these marriages.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:38:19] It's just something that, like, I've heard of and that, like, you know, just like anecdotally, I know a lot of people have experienced, like, if you believe in the atonement and you're able to say, like, I know that this relationship has these problems, but Jesus will forgive everything. All we have to do is put God first. And in Mormonism, like, you're not only promising to get married, it's your eternal covenant. You know, if you choose to get divorced, you are literally saying, I know that I will no longer be eligible for heaven. And so it's a huge thing to try and get divorced. There's like a kind of a common joke that, like, yeah, Mormons get married young and get divorced young, but every Mormon who got married in the temple and then chooses to get divorced is doing so knowing that they will at least temporarily no longer be eligible for the celestial kingdom because they're breaking those covenants.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:39:02] And I think you have that, you know, literal eternal pressure backed up against, if I'm divorcing you, am I suggesting that, like, your sin is too far past Jesus? And I think that is a really, really heavy weight to bear. And I think that, you know, you can say that's like a misinterpretation of the atonement or whatever, but I do think that's like, a really common wrestle that a lot of people struggle with and that Jen is probably feeling. And I also noticed that in the comment section, there are tons of people that are saying that Zach is. Is terrible and are relating their experiences to their own.

Is Zach Redeemable and Is He Representative

Alyssa Witbeck [01:39:32] But there were also a lot of people who were saying, you know, Zach's a good person. We see how righteous he is, like, in the church. Otherwise, we know he's trying, and we know that he can change because of the atonement. And I think it would probably be really easy for Jen to pick out those comments and kind of have this hope for something to change. And unfortunately, most of the time it doesn't. Most of the time it just gets worse.

Hayley Rawle [01:39:59] That atonement piece, I think is so key because there's multiple moments where Jen says, I see potential the way God sees potential. And that is really frightening in a situation like that. But you can tell she has this pressure of. I've been taught to see everyone as a child of God with potential that is redeemable, which is lovely to your point. There's something really beautiful about that, but not when you're stuck in a narcissistic, abusive marriage. And even if Zach does change, that's a long journey that they have ahead of them for him to actually change that. She's just, no matter what, inevitably going to have to go through a lot with him and probably guide him through a lot of that change.

Hayley Rawle [01:40:44] So, yes, I'm not saying someone like Zach is irredeemable, but I am saying that it's not Jen's job to fix him. But I do think the doctrine of atonement and repentance and forgiveness is probably again fueling her desire to give him that chance. Because that feels like what a good righteous Mormon does.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:41:04] And when you have. And perhaps he is redeemable, but when you see the way that he's responding, the way that his family is responding and how non supportive they are at this point, it's just no signs. There's no signs anywhere in the future or in the near future, at least.

Hayley Rawle [01:41:21] Agreed.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:41:21] And sorry, I just have. I'm just so rattled about this. But also like he's literally isolating her by taking her to New York. And, and we'll talk in a minute about this female. The best part of the entire series, I think the way that these women rally around Jen, but I think like we're seeing starts of her isolation. And I think the other reason why this tends to be so common in Mormonism is that Mormonism, for better or for worse, really relies on secrets. The temple is of course, like sacred, not secret, whatever, but there are secrets there. There's so much taboo within Mormonism. Don't talk about these secrets things.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:41:57] Make sure you know, porn is a secret, masturbation is a secret. Make sure you're, you're always being private and perfect all the time. And you know what else? And so you know, you can criticize or not criticize that. But the other things that really arise out of secrecy is abuse, is eating disorders. There are so many things that like, thrive on secrecy. And when you have a state that the entire community is used to and very, very comfortable with keeping secrets, it makes this idea that, like, you have to keep this abuse a secret easier. It does it. You're not surprised by it? I've been listening to podcasts about the series from people that are not Mormon, that are, like, New York City gals just, like, living it up, and they're trying to, like, suss out Mormon culture.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:42:37] And it's just so fun to listen to. And they're like, you know, reading off the church's website, like, mormon.org you know, it's like, it's really funny, but, like, all of this is just so wild to them, but all of it, you know, maybe the abuse is exaggerated in some relationships, but this is like the waters that we're swimming in. And whether it's Zach, but Zach, I think really is more of a launching off point for, like, Mormon men in general. And this is something that is going to continue to happen because we have a culture that's okay with secrets, because we have a culture that is continually trying to forgive men and let men do better, that is continually teaching women that they need to not only care for their children, but also make sure that they're like, almost parent their husbands.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:43:14] Like, it's just. I don't really see any world in which this is going to go away anytime soon. It's just massive deconstructing for every individual person. Person is really the only way out of it. Amen.

John Dehlin [01:43:28] Beautiful. Takes really quickly. If I could just add a tiny bit, I think it's important to call out what aspects of Mormon doctrine, theology, culture might be at play here, because otherwise we're just complaining. But we're not, we're not kind of identifying what the core root problems are. And I, I could just think of a couple. I, I want to invite you all to add, but, you know, obviously Mormonism is a patriarchy.

John Dehlin [01:43:54] The Proclamation on the family states specifically, and this is basically in effect, Mormon doctrine signed by the First Presidency states that men are to preside in the home, that women are to nurture the kids and to be homemakers, and that men are to provide and preside and protect. And so that that's already setting up this toxic, masculine protector, presider character to the woman who's home with kids, nurturing and being more submissive. I think that is a place to start. I think patriarchies are inherently abusive. I think that's fair to say.

John Dehlin [01:44:32] And then if you add the polygamy Element. Like obviously Mormons will just say, well, polygamy is in the past. We don't do that anymore. That's not true. Our two highest ranking leaders are both celestial. Polygamists believe in polygamy. It's still in doctrine and covenants 132. But my, my, my friend Kim once told me that polygamy inherently makes women pennies to a dime. In other words, you know, as soon as you believe that a man can have multiple wives and Mormons still do, and they're lying if they tell you they don't, then women are worth the fraction of what a man's worth. And then you add to that.

John Dehlin [01:45:13] You know, a lot of people like to interpret the Bible as sort of Jesus kind God fulfilling the law against the sort of mean retributive Old Testament God. But the Book of Mormon with Joseph Smith almost brings Old Testament God back. And you see that in like the Book of Mormon where Jesus comes and instead of it being a celebration, it's like mountains are dropped on the heads of men, women and children, and thousands die in fire and volcanoes. You know, like God, Book of Mormon God has no problem annihilating thousands or tens of thousands of his own children if he just has a bad day and thinks that they're kind of misbehaving.

John Dehlin [01:45:54] And so I think Mormon God is kind of a harsh, retributive person. And how are men who are presiding not going to role model their presiding hood from toxic masculine retributive Mormon God? Those are just a couple things that come to my mind. Is there anything that y' all would add in terms of Mormon doctrine, theology, practice, etc.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:46:19] I mean, there's the temple that we've talked about where women were covenanting, meaning promising to obey their husbands up until 1990 and then promising to hearken unto their husbands as their husband husband harkened then to the father. 2019 until 2019.

John Dehlin [01:46:34] Crazy.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:46:35] So like, Hayley and I both got married and you got married in the temple, right? Yep.

John Dehlin [01:46:39] Women were veiling their faces to pray to God.

Hayley Rawle [01:46:42] They came crazy.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:46:44] And like 2019 is not very long ago. And even then, like that culture is. You can't get rid of culture in five years.

John Dehlin [01:46:51] Like that's not in six generations. You can't get rid of that culture.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:46:55] Yeah, yeah. And so like, we're in marriages where technically, based on what we promised, we're still like beneath our husbands.

Guest [01:47:01] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:02] Also those reports that come out every, every general conference about how, how many men talk in general conference versus how many Women. It's crazy to me that it's always less and less women.

Hayley Rawle [01:47:15] Two people celebrate, too.

John Dehlin [01:47:17] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:47:18] Like, we did it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:19] The fact that a woman first prayed in general conference for the first time. What was it, 2013 or something? Yeah, 2013.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:47:25] Yeah. And also, like, there's even, like, the bit. I mean, this I don't think is complete. I think Mormonism makes it worse. But even just Christianity in general, we have, like, Bathsheba, we have this. All these ideas of these temptresses. We have the idea of the men, like, we need to, you know, control the women.

Hayley Rawle [01:47:45] Yeah. So much security culture. I think I want to mention something really quick that's a little bit off the question you asked John, but I haven't seen anyone talking about this, and I. It occurred to me, and I think it's really interesting, the fact that there's so much upset over this Chippendales situation when you look at the way that these women are dancing on TikTok. And I was realizing that, okay, here's Zach demonizing Jen for going to a Chippendale show. And I want to be careful how I say this. I'm not going to comparing what Jen does on TikTok to Chippendales. But a huge part of why these women are making the money that they make is sex appeal and sexual dancing.

Hayley Rawle [01:48:26] It is. And that's okay. As long as they're still faithful to their partner, they can go be sexy on the Internet. And, in fact, someone like a Zach probably likes that in some way. Right. It's, again, this dualism between, oh, you can be sexy to an extent, and that's cool, because I'm the husband of this woman who's being sexy on the Internet, but only to a certain extent. And I just point that out because I think that makes these things extra confusing as women, and probably Mormon women, particularly, because there's a lot of that purity culture wrapped up into it where it's okay for Jen in some ways, I think, to monetize her sex appeal.

Hayley Rawle [01:49:08] And let me be so clear, I'm all for it. I'm not saying. Saying there's anything wrong with that, and I'm not even saying that's what she's doing intentionally. But if she's doing that and making money, that's then funding Zach's gambling addiction, that's one thing. But then she can't go to a Chippendale show. And I think there's a lot wrapped up, to answer your question, John, with purity, culture and virtue and how women are Given the impossible task of being sexy and desirable and even making money off of their sex appeal. But.

John Dehlin [01:49:35] And also maternal and humble and submissive and ladylike.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:49:39] Yes.

Hayley Rawle [01:49:39] And pure and virtuous and righteous. And it appears non virtuous for Jen to be at Chippendales and yet she's doing sexy dances on TikTok. And for some reason it just goes to show how those, it gets kind of arbitrary sometimes too. Trying to like weigh those things out and really confusing for the women caught in that fray.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:02] Yeah. This wordings in the, and the proclamation of the wording in the proclamation of the family about the fathers, it's just jaw dropping crazy. And it's gonna keep getting crazy sound crazier and crazier as time gives. I mean it's not that old. It's 30 years old and it's. But it's current and yeah, but it's already for an outsider sounding insane that by divine design fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of the life and protection for their families. I mean when you look up what the word preside means, you know, it, it means to be in charge of thumb, something exercise, guidance, direction or control. And you usually use these like, you know the word preside when in a company. He has presided over the company for 15 years. You know, like someone that.

Hayley Rawle [01:50:55] In charge of.

John Dehlin [01:50:56] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:57] And it's in charge of and I don't know, it's just, it's just kind of insane. Have you heard about. Recently apologists have come out and try to change the word preside and change the meaning of it. Have you guys seen it?

Alyssa Witbeck [01:51:10] Oh, I haven't. Yeah. Well, I haven't heard it from that but when I was in the middle of my divorce and I was like talking to my stake president and I'm basically trying to figure out like is he crazy or is something wrong with the church? And we spent like months talking about the family proclamation and specifically the word preside. And I was like, I just, I was like. Anyway. And basically we're trying to figure out if like what he was doing was, was okay in the Mormon Church or not. And like we were really going in circles about how basically at the end of the day, yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:51:42] A lot of what was happening, I mean not every, not everything but like the overall dynamic was okay in, in the church and like, and, and he was telling me that like that's just how it's supposed to be. That's what it says in the temple and like that's not bad. And he was actually like, you're actually the only person I've ever talked to that's like had a problem with this. Like, I don't know what is wrong here. Like, wow.

John Dehlin [01:52:02] Yeah. And just, just to maybe take this for me to the most serious level, I can't help but notice in the past few years these national news stories that are coming out all basically saying Mormon dentist, husband kills wife and self and sometimes entire family. And that's. It's not just once, it's not just twice. I swear I've seen six or eight of those stories in the past few years. There is something deadly and toxic about the, the situation that many Mormon women and children end up in that grows out of. Now of course I don't have data on husband murdering wife and kids per capita. Utah slash, Idaho, Arizona, Mormons versus other populations. But am I crazy in noting that that story seems to be more and more common? Do y' all notice that too?

Hayley Rawle [01:52:57] Absolutely.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:52:58] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:52:59] I'm thinking as you're saying that too of how dangerous, actually dangerous this can get so quickly. I don't know if we want to talk about this yet, but when the women are talking the next morning. Yeah, yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [01:53:12] About the true crime, right?

Hayley Rawle [01:53:13] Yes, yes. Well, so the next morning they all wake up and Jen isn't there because Jen also at 2am Zach called her and said, yeah, I want to talk. And she had to make her way at 2am over to Zach to speak to him.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:53:26] Only a few on her own in Las Vegas, which feels, yes, yes.

Hayley Rawle [01:53:29] Nerve wracking to me when he was done gambling. So they all wake up, Jen's not there and no one's heard from her. And Macy actually makes a joke and she says maybe I've seen too much true crime. But where's Jen? You know, like kind of insinuating. That's not a stretch to imagine that some Zach could have acted violently toward her.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:53:47] Which is also not a stretch because Macy, it wasn't shown on the show but she's talked about openly. She was in a physically abusive relationship. And I think that like that is just this, the water that all of these conversations are swimming and nothing is existing in a vacuum. Macy making this light hearted comment is also based on experience.

Hayley Rawle [01:54:05] Totally. One thing I wanted to talk about in that morning kind of debrief, these women are all talking about it. Jen's not there and, and Demi is kind of recapping some of the things that she read. Zach texting Jen and one of the big things that Zach did was try and throw all of her friends under the bus. But the thing that I really noticed is he said about Macy, he said Macy and her husband are a joke because he walks. She walks all over him. And then Macy responds, and she says, yeah, I call that respect, bitch.

Hayley Rawle [01:54:39] Which I loved. But I think that also shows a huge thing at the core of this that is hugely magnified by the Mormon presiding doctrine, which is the fragility of Zach's masculinity, that he sees an equitable partnership in Macy and her husband, and he has to say, well, isn't her husband such a pushover who gets walked all over by his wife? That is very common in Mormonism. That is something that I. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've heard a sentiment like that, how many times I felt like that. How many times people have made comments to my husband of, like, oh, wow, like, you're kind of really letting Hayley.

Hayley Rawle [01:55:17] And not in an explicit way, but in a way of, like, are you cool with, like, Hayley sharing an opinion on the Internet? Like, I'm not joking. Like, even ex Mormon men. And it's crazy that any sort of equality in a marriage is often viewed as, oh, well, that. Look at that husband getting walked all over. And then I love what Demi said, because she said. And I wrote it down, she said, zach, you look like the biggest baby right now. And I said, snaps to that, because you're the one embarrassing yourself thinking that you have to be this presider in charge. And any other men who listen to their wives are embarrassing and weak. No, you're the one who looks weak because you're showing your insecurity loud and clear.

John Dehlin [01:56:00] He does look super weak.

Hayley Rawle [01:56:01] So weak.

John Dehlin [01:56:02] Pathetic. And I'm a guy, you know. Yeah, yeah. He does not represent me.

Hayley Rawle [01:56:07] Well, you don't identify, which is good.

John Dehlin [01:56:11] Identifying with Zach today. Yeah. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:15] Mormon patriarchy is, like, really fragile. And this remind me a lot to this conversation, this history with the church in the 70s, when the brethren were. When women's rights, you know, were being passed. And the Brethren were really scared of, especially Joseph Feeling Smith, who I believe was the prophet at the time, was scared that men were gonna lose their place as the patriarchs of. Of the home. And to the point where he was, like, really believing that doctrinally, that men could lose their sex in the hereafter if they didn't exercise that power dynamic in the home. So what he does is he institutes Mondays

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:05] to be family Hope evening as a Way for to give the dad a more patriarchal figure of a, of a family gathering where the dad would act as a patriarch in the home every week and would tell who was going to say the prayer, who was going to give the lesson and institute this, this patriarchal dynamic.

John Dehlin [01:57:29] We know that that was the motivation.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:30] Yeah, yeah. I believe Taylor Petrie is the one that has written about it on, on, on. On his book about gender dynamics in the church.

John Dehlin [01:57:38] The other thing I'm sure y' all are aware of is from the article the Gift Given, a Gift Taken Away, that Mormon women actually exercised the priesthood in the mid to late 1800s and early 1900s, including giving healing blessings. Priesthood, healing blessings. And as I understand it, the logic for it be it was taken away, it was given to them and then it was taken away. And the logic for why it was taken away was if women have too much responsibility, then men won't step up and do their proper roles. So we have to push women, we have to disempower women so that men can feel more empowered. And that's, I mean, that goes back to the looking weak. That's weak sauce right there. That's a lot of weak sauce.

Alyssa Witbeck [01:58:24] And it's also, I mean, we can criticize it a lot and I think we should, but it's also accurate. You know, like when women are able to get education, when women are able to work, when women are able to make decisions for themselves, patriarchy does crumble because it is this made up, terrible system. And the way that is able to continue is by not letting women know that they're disempowered. And as soon as they can realize it, then it all falls apart. So I think it's, it is in the church's best interest to set up specific ways for men to like, always make sure that they're the ones asking who to say the prayer. You know, just like these little ways to make sure we know, we know who's the top dog here.

Hayley Rawle [01:59:04] Yeah, I really. You talked about this with Vegas, but I think being able to see a couple like Macy, and I believe her husband's name is Jacob, I'm really glad that the show showed so many different couple dynamics as well. Jesse and Jordan, it didn't show as much, but Brett and Demi, just seeing that it doesn't have to be that way and showing men like Brett, I honestly think Brett is one of the unsung heroes of the show. He's much older. You would think he would be more steeped in patriarchy. And in some of these things we're talking about. And he seems nothing but deeply supportive of Demi in going to Chippendales, in wearing what she wants to wear.

Mormon Marriage Doctrine and Modern Relationships

Hayley Rawle [01:59:44] He's the one, like, helping her throw this. Galentine's party. I thought that was really powerful to see. They seem much more distanced from Mormonism, and I think they've probably just unpacked and deconstructed these things, which is why I think it's that way. But I'm really glad that we can see that someone like Brett appears so much more strong in himself and his identity by being willing to. Not being willing, but by being that type of husband. And the contrast is just incredibly stark between someone like him and someone like Zack.

John Dehlin [02:00:20] By the way, Brett, apparently Brett's sister was married to Larry King.

Hayley Rawle [02:00:25] Oh, wow. Interesting.

John Dehlin [02:00:26] Ingaman. Anyway. Interesting. Is Brett still married to the. To the woman he was.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:00:33] To Demi?

John Dehlin [02:00:33] To Demi?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:00:34] I think so, yeah.

Hayley Rawle [02:00:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:35] Okay. They didn't get divorced. Okay.

Hayley Rawle [02:00:37] No, the ones on the show.

John Dehlin [02:00:38] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [02:00:38] Are you talking about.

John Dehlin [02:00:39] Yeah.

Guest 2 [02:00:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:39] Okay. All right. Well. All right. So we're on episode seven, and are we done talking about Jen and Zach, or is there more we want to process? Or should we move on to either Whitney or. Or Taylor?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:00:55] Can I just say a couple things that. Just a couple quotes. Just that I think that Jen said just to kind of, like, nail this down again. Jesse said that Zach is the typical LDS guy who wants perfection from his wife. I was just really happy that the show, like, that they included that. That they included, like, the women, you know, criticizing the way that the church is set up. I thought that was. I was really surprised. I was expecting, like, us to be talking about it, but I was really impressed when we saw some of that conversation happening, you know, on the show itself.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:01:32] The other thing, just that I just. That seems like such a big red flag when. When Jen came home after she was there at the night of Vegas, they were worried. They weren't sure where she was. She shows up and she makes the comment.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:01:45] I can't find the exact thing right now, but. But basically she's saying, like, I know that Zach has his problems. He's, like, narcissistic, but I don't know if anybody would love me more. And I think that is a huge pitfall.

Hayley Rawle [02:01:57] She said that multiple times. She said, no one loves me more

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:01] than he does or has loved me or something.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:02:03] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:04] And then the women point out, like, you. You dated for, like, two months or something. Like, you know, you got married at 18.

Hayley Rawle [02:02:11] That caption she posted Was. I was like, oh, you don't realize.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:02:15] Not even helping.

Hayley Rawle [02:02:15] You're documenting love bombing. You literally documented it and thought that it was going to help your case.

John Dehlin [02:02:21] And the power differential is disturbing. If her mom's literally an immigrant cleaning the hospital, her mom, English is a second language. She was raised here. But this family is super Mormon, which brings its own power. If you're viewed as being entrenched in connected Mormon power and authority, plus you're super rich, plus your family is all intact and super connected and willing to defend your future husband at any cost, that's just so much power.

Hayley Rawle [02:02:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:02:56] She is so downpowered in that relationship,

Hayley Rawle [02:02:58] and I think she feels so lucky that she got chosen to be part of this family. And so she's going to fight even harder to, well, this guy loves me. This Mormon prince loves me, and no one's ever loved me this way because she never gave anyone a chance to love her that way. And because I think she feels chosen. And that greatly exacerbates the problem. But, yeah, I noticed that, too. How? How? I think she said it maybe three or four times. She said, but he loves me so much as if the love excused the rest of it. And that's also abuse on display.

Hayley Rawle [02:03:36] Right. He's really good at it because he makes her feel super loved enough so that he can get away with this type of behavior. And she's. She's saying these things but not even realizing it. And there's another point where Demi says to her, which I think was really powerful. She's like, you're. There's this pattern, but you're not adding it up.

Hayley Rawle [02:03:54] And I think that we saw Jen kind of in real time, like, really digesting, like, oh, this thing I've been noticing, it's real and. And starting to put those pieces together.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:04:04] And I think also, like, when. When she's saying, like, he loves me so much. That's all. It just feels like Zach is talking through her, you know, in that. And I think it's a very, very common, you know, abusive relationship. Thing that happens is. Is for men to say, like, I'm the only one that could ever love you. I love you so much. No one could. You know, I love. And this is something that both Dakota and Zach said or their partner said about them. He loves me too much. He can't help himself.

Hayley Rawle [02:04:30] Like, I can't.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:04:31] He cares. He loves me too much, too much. So he has to, like, be controlling. And I think it is, like, this idea that we're taught unfortunately, and especially when we're young, and in, like, Disney movies that we see, Ben is that control is a sign of love and that, like, that's what love looks like and is really. Is really sad to see. And also, part of the problem is that is normalizing it, that Zach is essentially saying, like, oh. And she says also, like, who says, like, another marriage wouldn't be just like this. Like, well, it's. It's abusive. So. So it most likely wouldn't be.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:05:00] Hopefully it wouldn't be. But I think it is kind of like we're equating, and Zach is probably to her, and maybe she is. While she's trying to reconcile equating, like, marital issues with abuse and things. See, thinking like, oh, they're basically the same thing. And that's just really hard to watch her, like, be realizing or, like, trying to be processing at the same time. Like, you know, every couple gets in arguments and, like, okay, now we're just.

Hayley Rawle [02:05:22] That's not an argument.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:05:23] You know, it. There's. There's different levels, and I think it's. Yeah, that's what I want to say about that.

John Dehlin [02:05:30] Yeah. Wow. Okay.

The Women's Support Network in the Show

Alyssa Witbeck [02:05:32] I do want to talk about the women. When Jen returns to the dinner and, like, their response.

John Dehlin [02:05:39] Let's go there.

Hayley Rawle [02:05:41] Yeah. So Jen comes home. They debrief. The next morning, she's gone all day. They don't hear from her until later in the day. She texts to me and says, like, yeah, we're working it out. And then they go to dinner. She's supposed to be there. She's not. Demi gets a call, I believe. Or she calls her, and Jen's like, oh, my gosh, we worked everything out.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:06:00] Yeah. She's like. And she's like, great.

John Dehlin [02:06:03] Better than ever.

Guest 2 [02:06:04] Oh, no.

Hayley Rawle [02:06:05] And the women's draws does literally drop. Thank goodness. And then Jen reunites with them all, and then they all get together and kind of debrief. And she's trying to play this, like, yeah, like, he knows what he did was wrong, and he apologized, and it was a hard conversation, but it needed to happen. So she's already switching the rhetoric to, he's apologized, and it's. It's fine.

John Dehlin [02:06:26] I. I was listening to her say that. I'm like, there's no way that conversation happened. There's no way he backed down in private to humble, submissive. It's all me. I'm so sorry.

Hayley Rawle [02:06:36] There's no way.

John Dehlin [02:06:37] Right?

Hayley Rawle [02:06:37] There's no way. I mean, and even if.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:06:40] Even if he did, it's been, like, 12 hours.

Hayley Rawle [02:06:42] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:06:42] Like, just this kind of, like, assumption that, like. And I think also that comes from this, like, very Mormon, you know, demure idea that, like, we don't want to be in conflict, so let's just do anything just to move past the conflict. Like, I don't want to have to sit and wrestle with this. So let's just. You said sorry one time maybe, or I said sorry for you, and you didn't disagree. So let's just say everything's fine. Let's just say everything's fine. We'll work through it.

Hayley Rawle [02:07:07] It seemed more like that. Yep.

John Dehlin [02:07:09] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [02:07:10] So, yeah, then they're all sitting there around the fire talking about it. And this is when we see Demi and Jesse primarily just basically telling Jen, this is not normal. This is not okay.

John Dehlin [02:07:21] They go hard.

Hayley Rawle [02:07:22] They go really hard. Yeah, yeah. And Jesse, she also. She was in a very similar relationship. She got a divorce. So I think she's really passionate about. She said, zach's disgusting, and I never want to be in the same room with him.

John Dehlin [02:07:37] Yeah.

Guest [02:07:38] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:07:38] And I think. I think this was my favorite moment from the entire series, as. Was it harsh? Yes. And, like, maybe, you know, I don't necessarily know exactly, like, what the best way is for these women to talk about it, but seeing the way that these women rally together when the stakes actually matter, I was really impressed by and really happy to see that, like, for so much of the show, they're claiming, like, we're liberating women. We're talking about, you know, we're drawing vulvas. Like, we're trying to, like, be empowering. And I think for a lot of it, like, we've been able to have some critique.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:08:07] Like, it hasn't come across. It hasn't landed in the way that they've intended. But this conversation, like, I was just really happy to see, like, in a time when a woman really needed help from her friends, that they were able to kind of put their issues aside, that they were able to say, okay, this isn't about a reality TV show anymore. This is about real problem. And they were able to come in with, like, their own experiences, too. And, yeah, Jesse went really hard, and Jen had a really hard time hearing it. But at the end of the day, I do think that, like, from what we saw, she was receiving a lot of support, which is something that I think, you know, a really common thing that happens in abusive relationships, too, is isolation.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:08:44] And I think them being able to name it, to be able to. Which also is why Zach hates them, you know, because they're. They call him on it. And, yeah, I was just. That felt, like, really, really heartwarming to

John Dehlin [02:08:57] see there's the same kind of dynamic with Dakota. Right?

Hayley Rawle [02:09:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:02] Like, yeah, who is it that hates Dakota?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:09:04] It's Macy.

John Dehlin [02:09:05] Macy's always down on Dakota. But I think it's because she loves her friend.

Hayley Rawle [02:09:10] Right?

Guest [02:09:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:11] She's like, I'm loyal.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:09:12] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:09:13] Loyal to Taylor, not to you, Dakota. Right.

Shifting Focus to Whitney's Story

Hayley Rawle [02:09:16] Could we maybe segue into Whitney?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:09:17] Because I have a thought.

John Dehlin [02:09:18] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [02:09:19] From that.

John Dehlin [02:09:19] Let's do Whitney.

Hayley Rawle [02:09:20] I think the Whitney nail in the coffin for me was you saw that moment with the women rallying around Jen. And then you see Connor gets a call from Jordan, Jesse's husband, and he walks downstairs. Whitney did not go to Vegas. And he says, oh, this drama happened. Do you want to hear about it? And she's listening to him recap. He tells her, yeah, Zach told Jen he doesn't love her anymore because she saw these Chippendales dancers. And Whitney says, well, I can see where he's coming from because she's not a good friend.

Hayley Rawle [02:09:51] And that, to me, I was trying really hard to give Whitney the benefit of the doubt. I still think that the discourse around her is cruel and not necessary. But that moment, to me, I think, showed a really dark side of Whitney that even in that moment that, to your point, brought all these other women together of, like, this is bigger than this. Whitney chose to say, oh, well, she's a bad friend, so basically she deserves an abusive marriage. That was.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:20] And doesn't she say, well, they kind of deserve it because they decided to go to Vegas, and I'm glad I didn't.

Hayley Rawle [02:10:25] Yeah. She kind of makes, like, a smug, like, well, glad I wasn't there.

John Dehlin [02:10:28] Yeah, it's kind of like if you dress wrong, then you deserve.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:10:31] Exactly.

Hayley Rawle [02:10:32] It very much felt that way. And that was really sad to see. I. I think Whitney, to give her some benefit of the doubt at that point, was probably already feeling massive amounts of left outedness, massive amounts of abandonment from these women. But that point was a moment for Whitney to exercise some compassion. And it was really unfortunate to me that that's how she chose to respond.

Guest 2 [02:10:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:57] For outsiders, I think it's really important to understand that Mormonism, as a. As a. As an artifact of Mormon patriarchy, there absolutely is a culture of rally around the man. And this is no more evident than in our plague of child sex abuse within our culture and how literally Mormon patriarchy, thanks to Kurt McConkey and others, is structured to where we have this super bizarre and toxic and horrific culture of protecting the abusers and pressuring victims to not go to the police, to not speak out and make public the fact that they were abused, to not name their abuser, and to rush the victims to forgive, to follow Christ's example and forgive.

John Dehlin [02:11:54] And, you know, this is a less extreme example, but just this idea of everybody rallying around the perpetrators, the men, the bad guys, at the expense of the victims is very, very toxically modern Mormon. And again, to your point, Alyssa, to have the women rallying around the woman and saying, we support you, that's bad behavior. You. You deserve better. That is. I mean, if anything is anti Mormon, that's anti Mormon in all the best ways.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:12:29] Amen. Yeah, because they're criticizing, like, the priesthood holder. They're criticizing these sacred covenants, like, and they're criticizing.

Hayley Rawle [02:12:37] They. I mean, to me, that's when she made the comment about Mormons get married before their brains develop. They were making. They were very actively, like, kind of deconstructing and unpacking as a group, which I think was really cool to see, too.

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:52] Yeah, agree.

John Dehlin [02:12:55] All right, is there anything else from episode seven that we want to. That we want to kind of COVID really quick? Do we want to talk about anything else? We can talk. I mean, I know we have to talk about Whitney and Connor and how everything ends, and then we have to talk about Taylor and Dakota.

Hayley Rawle [02:13:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:14] How all that ends. Which. Which should we do first?

Hayley Rawle [02:13:16] Yeah, let's talk about Taylor and Dakota.

Dakota, Taylor, and Pregnancy Drama

John Dehlin [02:13:18] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [02:13:19] I was thinking. To segue. I was thinking about that conversation. We didn't see so much from Taylor, but I do think it was interesting to see Taylor. She said this, I believe, at the dinner before they all had that conversation where she said, I don't want to be Jen in five years. And she said last night, when all the Chippendales drama went down, she said, I was really glad I wasn't married. And I think we kind of saw Taylor watching Jen and realizing some dynamics in her own relationship in ways that were pretty key for her as she was witnessing that happening, like, in a worse sense.

John Dehlin [02:13:58] And, Hayley, tell me if I've got the dynamic right. You, too, Gerardo. Basically, Dakota wants Taylor to commit. Dakota wants Taylor to be all in. He's basically saying, you're not committed. I'm committed. I'm all in.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:11] What is.

John Dehlin [02:14:12] You keep expressing hesitancy or doubt about me, and it's making me mad. I want you to be all in with me and marry me and be committed to me. What's Taylor's Perspective either, either of you.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:24] I think it's only about marriage.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:14:25] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:26] Because in what other way is she not being committed?

John Dehlin [02:14:28] I think she's expressing doubt.

Hayley Rawle [02:14:30] I think she's hung. I think he's frustrated at her because she's hung up on the fact that when they were first starting to date, they weren't officially exclusive. He said, I'm at a boys night. She said, come over. He said, I'm at a boy's night. And then later that night, he hooked up with another woman. So she is really struggling to move past that breach of trust. What she sees as a breach of trust, Dakota, I don't think sees it as much as a breach of trust because he was like, we weren't exclusive. And so I. I was never.

John Dehlin [02:15:02] She's also denying that they had sex.

Hayley Rawle [02:15:04] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:05] Later she discovered it or something like that.

Hayley Rawle [02:15:07] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:15:07] Yes.

Hayley Rawle [02:15:09] She. He didn't tell her that she found that out. So I think that was another key thing. So I think, yes. He wants her to just say, I'll marry you and I'm in this. And she's. She's not willing to just say. Even if they're not getting married immediately, she's not willing to say, I want to marry you eventually. That's what I'm working towards. And I for give you. She's kind of ruminating on that breach of trust. And I mean, I think it's personally clear as day to see that she just doesn't really like him that much. I mean, I think she loves him, but I think she sees him for what he is, which I think is someone who has a ton of work to do on himself.

Hayley Rawle [02:15:45] I think the biggest mystery of it all is that she got pregnant with his child, presumably intentionally. That is the one thing that I can't really make sense of. I think she was probably just in a hard frame of mind, but I think Taylor is truly just waiting for an excuse to cut ties is how I've perceived their dynamic personally.

John Dehlin [02:16:06] It probably doesn't hurt to mention that the Mormon culture is awful about sex education, about contraception, about healthy sex dynamics. And so a birth out of wedlock, that's not. That's not an uncommon thing in our culture. A pressure to have babies. Also something that's. That's. Because what else does a Mormon woman. That's literally what Mormon women were created for, is to have babies.

Hayley Rawle [02:16:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:34] So, yes, it's. It's unfortunate that it's out of wedlock from an orthodox Mormon perspective, but those grandparents are going to be super stoked to have another baby to add to their posterity. You know, that's to be multiplied as sands of the earth, worlds without end. Am I. Am I wrong?

Hayley Rawle [02:16:51] Yeah, I think for Taylor, too, I do sense this. I mean, I think we can assume it was maybe intentional because she had a miscarriage and then an ectopic pregnancy. So I think she knew that she was trying to get pregnant.

John Dehlin [02:17:05] She has other kids too, right?

Hayley Rawle [02:17:06] She has two other kids as well. And I think, to your point, John, I think she sees it as maybe her most important value add, especially to a man who doesn't have children, who's a little bit older by Mormon standards. I mean, he's 31, so that's probably a big deal for him. He seems very obsessed with this idea of having a family. And she maybe recognized that, whether consciously or subconsciously early on and thought, like, this is a value add. I can have and carry his child. And then as their relationship progressed, she continued to see, like, that this maybe wasn't something she wanted to commit to for the rest of her life. And now that's causing, obviously, a lot of discord.

John Dehlin [02:17:46] I'm kind of curious to know if. If Dakota comes from money or status, because if I'm Taylor and it's just come out publicly that I've been arrested for child abuse and I'm divorced, and I'm viewed as this crazy Mormon swinger person globally, I imagine she feels like she's damaged goods, like no one's gonna love her. And the idea that open if this Dakota guy comes from money or status or if he just likes her. Maybe having a baby is a way to lock someone in when you're worried or insecure that you're not lovable anymore and that no one will want you. Which is weird because she's making a gazillion dollars as a super famous influencer. But she could probably still be insecure, right?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:18:36] Yeah. And she has said many times that she doesn't feel like she is worthy of love and she feels really guilty. And, like, at the end of the day, the mistakes that she made were pretty dramatic. I'm not referring to the swinging. I'm referring to the arrest.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:18:51] And so I think that that just does kind of put a cloud over. Over everything, even with Taylor's redemption story, because it is just. It's just really messy. And I do wonder if, like, it's clear, especially from the first episode, that, like, she's in a lot of emotional turmoil, she's really struggling, and when she's coming from that she's coming from just this enormous scarlet letter of the swinging scandal and then of the arrest where the stakes were just raised so much that, you know, she's already has two children. She's coming from a background where, like, motherhood is the most pure domestic angel thing that you can do.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:19:27] Like, what better way to kind of, like, clear her name? And I meant perhaps this was subconscious. Maybe this wasn't even part of it at all. But to me, that kind of makes sense as, like, when you're grappling with being, like, kind of tarred and feathered in the community, the best way to kind of get out of that is having a new baby. And that seems kind of like. You know, we talked about so much about how communication is something that is really not very effective in a lot of these relationships. And it seems like having a baby with someone is, like, a common way that people are like, let's just, like, work through the problems by just ignoring the problems and bringing this new, beautiful life into the world. That'll fix it, because it's adorable. You know, we know this doesn't actually work, but it makes sense.

John Dehlin [02:20:11] And it brings children into a really hard world.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:20:15] Exactly. And that's when things are. I. It is really hard, you know, that this is kind of like the. The way that the baby is coming into the world in some tumultuous.

Gerardo Sumano [02:20:28] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [02:20:28] Dynamics.

John Dehlin [02:20:29] And I don't know that this has been mentioned enough. The parallel has been drawn enough. But we are just coming out of the Ruby Frankie, eight passengers, Dodi Hildebrandt fiasco of real, literal federal crime level child abuse. I just. I wouldn't. If there's a lot of things I would not want to be. I for sure would never want to be the child of a Mormon mommy influencer in Utah, because it just seems like a setup for abuse or neglect. I don't know.

Hayley Rawle [02:20:58] Or exploitation.

John Dehlin [02:21:00] Yeah, Exploitation abuse, which is abuse in

Hayley Rawle [02:21:03] a lot of ways. Yeah, totally. Yeah. This is a bit tangential, but I actually was really impressed for the most part, how the show handled the very few children were seen. It was not a focal point at all, which I was so happy about, especially because I actually kind of did a deep dive. I didn't know all these women, but that's one thing that I just have a really, really hard time excusing in any way is using the children as part of the clickbait of it all. And I was just really happy to see, and I hope that the success of the show shows these women that they don't need to be using their children in order to gain the popularity that it seems like they desire because they had a hugely successful show, and it wasn't about the children.

Hayley Rawle [02:21:50] But to your point, maybe Taylor was still in that mindset of, like, my kids are a big part of my brand. And this. I didn't even think about how it could be a rehabilitation effort of. It's harder to be as cruel, maybe even to, like, a pregnant woman, you know? And, yeah, I don't. I don't think she consciously got pregnant for that reason, but I do think that that's. Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:22:09] And I do think, like, what you're saying, because she mentioned that a lot about that cruelty, that she was really disturbed and shocked that the fights with Dakota would escalate while she was, like, 36 weeks pregnant. Which is. Is very valid that, like, she should be able to, like, be much calmer. But, like, she was really noticing that, like, I. Which, I mean, I don't know, but I'm kind of, like, extrapolating. It seemed like she thought, oh, like, this is supposed to be, like, the sweet, perfect time. We're, like, in, like, the baby moon phase, and it still is so bad.

Hayley Rawle [02:22:39] And maybe thinking that her pregnancy would afford her some more care from her partner.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:22:44] Exactly.

Hayley Rawle [02:22:44] And I think there's some ways I can relate to that, too. Where, I mean, I. Yes, definitely. I think pregnant women deserve to be cared for and deserve to be given slack and all these things. But I do think maybe that's the only way that sometimes women feel like they can get the respect that they feel intrinsically they deserve is by literally carrying another life.

Guest [02:23:04] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:23:04] And like, on her. On Taylor's social media also, like, before she had the baby, she was, like, showing a lot of, like, oh, look, Dakota was, like, being so sweet, like, rubbing her feet. And, like, they were really emphasizing, like, during the birth. Like, I was like, wow, Dakota is being the most charming I've seen him this entire. Do you guys. Feelings, you know, because she gives Regina joy. And he was, like, excited with Taylor. Like, he was being the sweetest to Taylor. Once her water broke. He was, like, making jokes and, like, oh, you know, she smelled the pants. And I was like, oh, I'm starting to see this, like, charisma that I haven't seen until now. And it kind of took this, like, really dramatic change for something like that to happen.

Hayley Rawle [02:23:41] Yeah. And I think if they have broken up, as people are speculating that they have, it's interesting because I think the baby is now. I don't know, six to eight months. So they probably had a little bit of an influx of that goodwill and that, I mean, there is something that happens when a baby comes that's really special.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:23:57] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [02:23:58] But it's also incredibly difficult. And once that initial magic can not the magic of the baby, but the magic of what that can do to a companionship kind of wears off. That we're probably right about the point where they're like, okay, even this is not going to be enough to keep us together.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:24:16] Because now they're actually in like the trenches of who's. Who's getting up in the night. How are we handling, you know, the rules of how many diaper changes are we feeling here? You know, like those are like real, real relationship. And I know that they've. I'm sure they've done that because Taylor has two children already. But like in some. But like they're her children, you know, so Dakota.

Hayley Rawle [02:24:38] I doubt Dakota's been much involved.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:24:40] Anything that Dakota's been, has been like a bonus.

Guest [02:24:42] Like, wow.

John Dehlin [02:24:43] Remember when he was trying to learn how to change diapers?

Hayley Rawle [02:24:45] Oh, I know Bentley. My husband was literally crying, laughing when he was like holding. He was trying to like put the pants on the baby. And it's relatable, unfortunately. But like, I'm sure, I'm sure he's had to learn a full crash course. It doesn't seem like he had much interaction with infants.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:25:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:03] I'm not trying to virtue signal here, but I was a Mormon dad husband and I loved, I loved nursing, bottle nursing my kids. I loved it. I felt Margi will. Will say that I, when she was nursing, I felt left out. I'm like, oh, you're going to bottle.

Guest 2 [02:25:21] Yay.

John Dehlin [02:25:21] That means I get to. You know what I mean? So I don't know if I'm typical or not. Again, I'm not. I'm just being honest. I love that part of being a dad. Waking up to bottle feed the kids so that Margi could sleep in. Like, I. So I don't know. I, I guess I only say that because I don't want this show to suggest that all Mormon husbands and dads are evil.

Hayley Rawle [02:25:43] Well, and a lot of the dads, when kids were shown, they seemed pretty hands on. I mean Connor and Whitney, he seemed pretty hands on. Jacob, obviously Macy was gone a lot lot. I'm presumably the dads with the kids. So I do think a lot of that.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:25:55] Even Zach was hands on with the children.

Hayley Rawle [02:25:57] Yeah, yeah, totally. You saw him a lot with the, with the kids and he was the one teaching Dakota. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:02] Let me just ask y'.

Guest 2 [02:26:03] All.

John Dehlin [02:26:03] I mean, y' all have husbands, Mormon husbands, raised as Mormon, and y' all have kids with them. Are there ways that your husbands defy the Zach Dakota kind of image that you're comfortable sharing, or is that putting you on the spot?

Hayley Rawle [02:26:20] I'd be happy to. I mean, I.

Guest 2 [02:26:23] Or.

John Dehlin [02:26:23] Or. Or conform with it.

Hayley Rawle [02:26:24] Yeah. No, I mean, I think that. I don't think my husband had much exposure to taking care of infants at all. So I think he was learning it more so than I was because I babysat a lot growing up. So I think in a lot of ways, he is a product of that culture where it just wasn't really instilled in him, nor was, yeah, that. His way to make money as a teenager, the way it was mine.

Hayley Rawle [02:26:51] But I do think. I think I can speak to this, because I think my husband's name is Bentley Bentley. And I. I. We've had to have conversations where I've kind of brought to his attention, like, hey, you might not even realize it, but you're not caring for the children the way that you need to be. Like, even when we're both here or, like, when we're at my mom's house, like, I'm the one, whatever. So we've had to. I don't think it came as naturally to him because of the conditioning. And we've had some really good conversations. And I think the thing I'll say about Bentley is he was willing to listen and to learn and even talking about, like, the distribution of labor.

Hayley Rawle [02:27:29] We had a conversation once where I said, I want this for me because I need it, but I want this for you. Because to your point, John, I was like, this is where the bonding happens. Like, this is where, like, you want this for you. And I think that he's really taken that to heart, and it. I think he would be fine with me saying this, because I just want to say, like, I do think that a lot of men are predisposed to be less involved. And so I'm really grateful for a partner who was willing to listen and to learn and to really try.

Hayley Rawle [02:28:01] And I think it's. You know, I would say we have a really equitable way of taking care of our children now, which. It wasn't like that naturally at the beginning.

John Dehlin [02:28:10] That kind of came more after leaving the church than when you were in it or not.

Hayley Rawle [02:28:14] Honestly, I think it was less a product of leaving the church and more a product of actually deconstructing the Patriarchy of the church, Because I don't think that happened in a. I don't think that happened simultaneously.

John Dehlin [02:28:28] Right. Lots of men can leave the church, but not deconstruct patriarchy. But did you. Did y' all deconstruct patriarchy after losing your faith or before?

Hayley Rawle [02:28:36] After. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:39] You kind of have to lose your faith. Then if you are trying and paying attention, then you work to deconstruct patriarchy, and then you can be a better human man. Husband. Spouse.

Hayley Rawle [02:28:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:51] Yeah. Alyssa, what were you gonna say?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:28:54] Yeah, I think in a lot of similar ways to what you were saying, Hayley. Like, he was predisposed to a lot of, like, these Mormon dynamics. I think he wasn't used to spending as much time with babies as I was. Like, that was. I was just always expected in the neighborhood with cousins. You know, I was just, like, very used to being around children.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:29:13] But my husband is really good at being willing to change his mind about pretty much anything and being curious about that. And we just deconstructed patriarchy around the same time that we were deconstructing our faith. And that was because I had gotten out of this, like, really unhealthy relationship. And I do think that, like. Like, him seeing that and hearing, like, the stories made him really aware of just how patriarchal the church was. And that kind of, like, forced him into this. Like, okay, like, is this something that I should be deconstructing? And he, like, did that on his own very intentionally.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:29:45] And that was probably about a year before we had a baby. So it was like we had deconstructed. We deconstructed patriarchy, but it was still, like, relatively recent before having a child. So that's, like, a continual thing.

Hayley Rawle [02:29:59] Highly.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:30:00] Sorry. No, no, keep going.

Hayley Rawle [02:30:01] Interrupting you for my joke. I was just gonna say, highly recommend deconstructing patriarchy before you have kids, because we were doing it. I think kids are what kind of brought that on for us. And it was hard. So I think the more you can, like, have those conversations pre children, for sure, the better.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:30:19] Yeah. But that, like, really did play a really big role. And, like, when I was pregnant, we had a ton of conversations about that. And also, like, I was going to grad school, and, like, I've always been, like, really ambitious about those types of things. And so we were kind of like, okay, like, let's have these conversations.

Hayley Rawle [02:30:34] Let's.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:30:34] Let's figure this out. And so, yeah, it was, like, right around that same time, but it made as. As difficult as parenting can sometimes be, and as, like, crazy as it can be and how still our instincts and, like, our childhood understanding of our roles is still very different. Like, he has been very willing to be extremely open and curious to not be, not suck.

John Dehlin [02:30:59] That's great. Thanks to Latter Day Digest for reminding our viewers and listeners to share, like, and subscribe. We really want to grow the channel. And if you all subscribe to it and like, and stuff also, while you're at it, go subscribe and, like, girls Camp podcast, wherever you can find it.

Hayley Rawle [02:31:17] I'm on YouTube, too.

John Dehlin [02:31:19] Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so quick verdict. Thumbs up or thumbs down on? You know, we know how y' all feel about Zach. Y' all are officially thumbs down on Jen staying with Zach. Wait, let me get the wide shot of that. Double thumbs down. So you're basically free. Free. Gen Affleck is basically the new hashtag. Sorry. Sorry, Zach. Do better. We're all trying to do better. Join us. Okay, and then thumbs up or thumbs down on Dakota. On Jen staying with Dakota. What do we got on Taylor? Sorry, did I say Taylor?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:31:54] You said Jen, but Taylor.

John Dehlin [02:31:57] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [02:31:58] I just.

John Dehlin [02:31:59] Down on Dakota. Thumbs down. Okay.

Hayley Rawle [02:32:00] I think Taylor. I don't think Dakota is the same as Zach, but I think Taylor deserves to take care of herself and her kids and to figure her own stuff out. And I don't think she needs to be doing that for a man. And it seems like that's kind of the dynamic with Dakota.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:32:20] So he's like a.

John Dehlin [02:32:21] Another kid.

Hayley Rawle [02:32:21] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [02:32:22] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [02:32:23] Yes. Like, stop. I mean, come on. Again and again.

John Dehlin [02:32:27] That's when you see her sob, and he gets his reaction to her sobbing is what he. He gets more mad.

Hayley Rawle [02:32:35] Yeah, he gets. And he gets more like. Like, it's like he just won't stop. I just wanted to. I wanted to yell at the tv. Just give her a hug and tell her this is not. You don't need to worry about this right now. Don't even worry about me right now. You grow this child, and I'm here for you, to support you. What do you need? And it was just constantly, like, she would cry, and then he's like, well, you won't. This, this, this, and this, this, this. And you won't forgive me.

Guest [02:32:58] This.

Hayley Rawle [02:32:58] And it's like, dakota, just give her a hug and let this lie. I feel like he obviously is so insecure, and that insecurity is just massively toxic, and it's just not something that I think Taylor needs to be taking on the way that she has. And, I mean, hopefully, if they have broken up, they can both move on. And I think they're both. Honestly, at the core, I see them both as good people. I just think that they need to figure them their own selves out.

Guest [02:33:28] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:33:29] I think there's, like, this way that people that are sometimes struggling are, like, drawn to other people that are struggling because, like, they feel seen. And that's, like, kind of what it seems like for Taylor and for Dakota. Like, they are both in really low places and they're able to kind of, like, commiserate. And I think sometimes, like, those relationships, you can help build each other up. And unfortunately, this doesn't seem like one of those relationships where, like, their mental health issues complement each other. It seems like they're just grading against each other and making them both worse for it.

John Dehlin [02:33:59] All right, Hara, did you want to vote on.

Gerardo Sumano [02:34:03] Yeah, that's. I. I agree with thumbs down.

John Dehlin [02:34:06] Let me see.

Hayley Rawle [02:34:08] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:34:08] Come on.

John Dehlin [02:34:10] Sorry. Okay.

Guest 2 [02:34:12] Are.

Episode Eight and How the Series Ends

John Dehlin [02:34:12] Are we done with episode seven? Do we want to finish with episode eight? Okay. I'll just say it. I was really disappointed with how this series ended. 8 just felt like a drama festival. It felt the least insightful to me of all the episodes. It felt staged. The whole Whitney drama coming in at the birthday party, and it's like they had that solo shot of her walking down the little hallway or aisle, and she's almost in slow motion with the bad music playing. I'm like, this is just bad, staged drama. But that's just my take. What do y' all think?

Hayley Rawle [02:34:51] I also, the. One of the things I was thinking as I rewatched that episode last night was it was kind of a bummer to see it end on that note after the gen empowerment stuff, because the. I'm no fan of how Whitney behaved in the show, but I felt like this episode, it was a little bit like every other cast member was just like wanting the opportunity to kind of twist the knife. And I just didn't think it was the best look, especially because it was pretty clear, like, Whitney's on the outs. Yes, she behaved in, I think, you know, not good ways, but it felt like it was more so I'm trying to use non gendered language.

Hayley Rawle [02:35:38] And I mean, again, it's reality TV to your point. So I'm. This isn't even a judgment on these women, but I feel like they were kind of like, really play up how much you all dislike Whitney. And it just felt like Whitney felt very embarrassed. And to me, it was just unnecessary to play that up to the extent that I think they did. And some of the Behaviors specifically at that party, I just thought were just kind of cruel toward her.

Guest [02:36:02] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:36:02] And it did feel so regressive after this really beautiful moment with the women, you know, gathering around Jen. It was like, oh, okay. You know, again, we've been talking about empowerment so much, and we had a really beautiful moment of that. And so I wish this season. And even if, like, let's even change the chronology in the editing, like, if you really want to show those parties, if you have this footage that you need to use contract reasons or whatever, like, I just really felt like we should have ended on this, like, you know, unity moment, and maybe that wouldn't give us the same cliffhanger.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:36:33] But it just also felt like the drama felt so, like, this. Nobody cares about, like, Whitney unfollowing people when we just barely saw Jen in this abusive relationship. And, like, we see Taylor having a baby. Like, let's focus on if we want to have that. Kind of be, like, our redemption for the end of the season. Like, let's focus on that. But kind of like doubling down on the Whitney drama felt just like, narratively it was off because we hadn't even focused on it for the last couple episodes. So then to come double back down without any new information felt lazy to me and boring.

Hayley Rawle [02:37:06] Yes, I. Yes, I agree. I. I think feel like, I mean, the Whitney thing, it's funny because I actually. I wanted. I was hoping Sam would be here today because I actually feel like Whitney had many, many opportunities to redeem herself or to just very simply, at a very base level, just be like, hey, like, I'm obviously not in a place to, like, handle this kind of female friendship dynamic. Like, I don't do well in these group settings.

Hayley Rawle [02:37:34] I just really wish and continue to wish that she would be willing to do that, because, I mean, I've even seen her double down. I watched a podcast with her about the RSV video dancing with her baby, and she's. She basically said, I only regret it because of how people responded. I don't regret actually doing it. I just think she's had opportunities to show some self awareness that I'm. It's a bummer that she hasn't. And I can see how the women, the additional castmates would just be fed up and just be like, like, yo, like, we're over this. We're over these antics. I can understand that.

Hayley Rawle [02:38:10] But I do think that that's just less interesting in so many ways than some of this. These other things that we've been talking about. And, you know, you can kind of see now, I think especially in how things have been playing out after the show aired, that that's really what it seems like they're being encouraged to play up is like, what's going on with Whitney. And to me, I'm like, Whitney also just needs to seemingly figure herself out, and she just seems like she doesn't fit in very well with this group. And it doesn't seem like that much deeper than that to me personally.

Gerardo Sumano [02:38:42] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:38:42] Which can I also just say, you've said, you know, based on everything that we're seeing after. After the show playing out, these women are so good at their jobs. I'm trying to keep up on the content. There's so much content. They're doing podcast interviews, they're doing videos. They've done, like, stitching each other's videos. All these dances that they have backlog that they've been saving. I'm, like, just blown away by how they're able to keep the momentum going. And it's like they're professionals at marketing for themselves, and it is really showing. It's cool.

Hayley Rawle [02:39:09] I mean, honestly, I know that, yeah, there's always things that could be said, but I feel really proud of them. And for so many reasons. I think these things that we are saying about how some of them did show up, but also I just think that you can kind of see the empowerment now that they've seen the reaction to the show. You can see a shift in their confidence and in their empowerment. And I think that it's really cool to witness that, especially again, because I think it's hopefully maybe kind of shifting them away in some ways from the mommy blogger ness of it all, which, to be fair, a lot of these women compared to a lot of other influencers, I think we're always a little bit more focused on just on, like, their group dynamic and less on the kids.

Hayley Rawle [02:39:53] But I don't know. I think that I was expecting to not feel the way I do about the show before watching it. And I've definitely grown a lot of fondness and tenderness, I think, for every single one of the women, honestly.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:10] Did y' all think it was funny that Whitney is. Is flirting with the idea of becoming a trad wife? Ballerina farms, Sort of the timing of

Alyssa Witbeck [02:40:19] this was the universe is really coming together to give Mormons amazing content right now and discourse about, like, yeah, the streamline to trad life. Amazing.

John Dehlin [02:40:31] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [02:40:32] The farm thing, the way that was edited, too, was so funny because they were so clearly trying to show her as just not quite cut out for that kind of lifestyle. And, yeah, I mean, I actually think I saw Whitney. I was. I was at an event where they were filming for the show and none of it aired. I wasn't part of it. I just, like, saw them filming. But Whitney actually told my friend at that point. She was like, yeah, I'm gonna go get a homestead, and I'm learning to make sourdough bread. And, oh, man, that. To me, it's just funny that it. It probably seems like an out to her or like just this idealized, oh, just step into a farm lifestyle and

John Dehlin [02:41:13] it's like a refuge.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:41:13] Yes.

Hayley Rawle [02:41:14] But it. It just obviously, logistically, like, is not so simple and is probably not what you're thinking. It's going to be based on watching Ballerina Farms content. So I think it was kind of funny that they showed, like, this maybe is not so glamorous as one might want to think.

John Dehlin [02:41:33] I mean, it's so August 2024. Right. So last month.

Hayley Rawle [02:41:38] Yeah, we're past that.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:41:39] Like, well, we've moved on.

John Dehlin [02:41:43] Yeah. What did y' all think about the confrontation with. Was it Dakota and Macy in the car?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:41:50] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:51] Was it Macy? I'm gonna never get the names right. Yeah, yeah. So, like, so. So Taylor wants Macy to make up with Dakota. Right. So they end up getting in a car together. I'm a. You know, I'm thinking, is this safe for Macy to be in a car with Dakota not knowing anything really about Dakota? But what'd y' all think about Macy standing up to Dakota? I think she modeled direct conversation. Direct communication. And she says, I'm. Look, I'm on. I'm on Taylor's side. I'm not on your side. You know, What'd y' all think?

Hayley Rawle [02:42:25] I love that. I love that she wasn't kind of manipulated into apologizing. I think a lot of women in that circumstance would just be like, yeah, you know, I'm sorry, whatever. Just get out of my car. And she didn't seem intimidated. I mean, I'm sure she felt nervous, and I think she said so. But I was proud that she wasn't intimidated by. I mean, he's a man. He's kind of a big man, and he. I mean, one thing about Dakota that I saw a tick tocker say that I absolutely agree with is watch your tone. Like, that's the one thing where I was like, why are you speaking that way?

Hayley Rawle [02:42:59] That you don't need to be speaking that way, especially as a man towards women. I was frustrated by his Tone the majority of the show. I think he was attempting to communicate, and I don't think what he was saying was always that bad, but I just wish he could take a breath and not be speaking that way, especially towards women. But I think Macy did a good job of just not being intimidated and just saying. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:22] What'd y' all think of his argument? His argument was, you're trying to wreck my relationship. You found out that. That there's an allegation that I cheated on Taylor. Why would you tell her that right before she's about to have a baby? What'd y' all think of that? Logic or justification on Dakota's part?

Gerardo Sumano [02:43:43] So dumb.

John Dehlin [02:43:43] Why. Why Herodotus?

Gerardo Sumano [02:43:45] I mean, why wouldn't. Why wouldn't she tell her?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:43:49] Right.

John Dehlin [02:43:49] I mean, because it spoils the childbirth. I'm right. Joking, but yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:43:54] What does childbirth have anything to do with an allegation of. Of. Of something, you know, that's important for Taylor?

John Dehlin [02:44:02] Yeah. I thought Macy made a good point. It's like, this is the best time to tell her before she makes the decision to freaking marry the guy.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:44:09] Right.

John Dehlin [02:44:09] If he's a lying cheater.

Guest [02:44:11] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:44:11] Like, there's no good time.

John Dehlin [02:44:12] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:44:13] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [02:44:13] I. If I were Macy, I would have told her right away, like, the day after I got the thing. And maybe she wanted to in production, didn't have her. But I think it was absolutely the right choice. And I think if Taylor and Dakota were not an already unstable, toxic relationship. You know, if someone told me that, look at this message I got about your husband, I would say, hey, this is crazy. Like, where do you think this is coming from and what's going on? And we would just talk about it. The fact that an anonymous message that, you know, who knows what, there's no way to judge the credibility of that. The fact that that was, like, such a threat, I think also says a lot that.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:44:52] Yeah. I'm just continually impressed by Macy's response here. I feel like of the women, she's the most. Her aunt and maybe Jesse tend to be the most clear, the most direct in communication, like we were saying. And I like how she was saying, like, I'm the messenger. I didn't. I didn't do anything wrong. I'm just. I got this message. I've been friends with Taylor for a very long time. Well before you came into the picture. Like, why would she be loyal to him at all?

Guest [02:45:15] And it seems.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:45:16] Seems like I don't even know why the conversation happened. It seems like Dakota is just spiraling and is trying to find a way into Taylor and thinks maybe talking to Macy is a good idea. Which on the one hand I'm like, I guess it's better to talk to Macy than just like talking badly about Macy. But also, like, it doesn't really do anything because he's like, there's really no point in the conversation. There's no actual conclusion that they come to. It just seems like he's kind of spinning out and is just hoping that something really life changing, like maybe a baby, can distract them from their problems

Hayley Rawle [02:45:48] for a little bit. Yeah, yeah, agreed. I think he's trying to desperately get things with Taylor to be okay. And it's not really about the external stuff. It's about what's going on with both of them internally more than anything.

Mormon Culture and Pressure to Marry Young

John Dehlin [02:46:03] Mormon culture needs to stop with the pressuring young people to get married and have kids too quickly. I think all the data show that the later waiting later to get married and to have kids on average, has better outcomes for the, for the quality of the marriage, for the mental health of the people getting married and ultimately for the kids. We just got to stop that.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:46:30] Yeah, there's no winners here.

John Dehlin [02:46:32] No, no, it's bad for the church because all these divorces and children with bad, you know, unhealthy upbringings, it's just not good. Was, was Whitney putting a pregnancy test, a used pregnancy test in the cake? Not one of the most hilarious things I've ever seen. Margi was like, wait, isn't that a used pregnancy test? And her sister calls it out, right? That's gross. She's like, what? It had the cap on it, right?

Hayley Rawle [02:47:04] And it looked like a nice cake too. I was bummed. I'm like, ah, what a waste of a delicious looking cake.

John Dehlin [02:47:10] Would y' all eat the cake if you knew that someone's used pregnancy test was in the cake? Would you? Would you?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:47:15] I gotta be real. That frosting looked good.

Hayley Rawle [02:47:17] I was maybe, maybe like a piece on the outside. They should have cut like a ring around it and then. Yeah, they could have still made it

Alyssa Witbeck [02:47:24] or like put it in a baggie.

Hayley Rawle [02:47:25] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:47:26] You know, there's ways I understand that like the pregnancy, pregnancy test, if she has. I was, I was like really trying to like justify this in my head. Okay. Because I mean, I love looking up cute pregnancy announcements. You know, I was like trying to be. Have a cute pregnancy now. So when I had a kid and like, yeah, before, you can't get an ultrasound until you're like farther along. And if she want to tell her Family early. Like, that's the most, like, you know, concrete item that you have to represent the pregnancy. So. Okay. Is it a little gross? Yes. Does the cap on it help? Not that much, but there are so many workarounds. You know, put it in a bag. Maybe don't do something that you can eat.

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:01] Yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:48:01] Maybe make it. Yeah, it was. I was trying to be with her there, but I was like, girl, I know.

Hayley Rawle [02:48:08] Bless Whitney's heart, because there's the things that she did that I'm like, those are things. You said those are things. I mean, you chose to say that on tv. But then there's things like the P stick where I'm like, oh, you should have thought of that. But also, do you deserve to be dragged on the Internet tell Kingdom come for it? Probably not.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:48:26] Like, if I understand, it's not the toilet paper. Not her fault, the P stick.

Hayley Rawle [02:48:31] True.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:48:32] If you're trying to avoid a full edit, maybe don't stick a P stick.

Guest 2 [02:48:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:38] Should we. We've already talked enough about Jen and Zach, but that conversation about, you know, whether he should go to New York and whether she should go with him and how he responded to her, about what she'll love and what she'll enjoy and what she'll want to do. Do you have thoughts on that?

Influencing as a Career and Mormon Culture

Hayley Rawle [02:48:57] One thing that we maybe haven't touched on that I think is important to consider, there is influencing as a career and the way that the outside world and Mormons as well, perceive influencing. And I think a lot about this. I. I feel like even with what I do with my podcast, I'm influencer adjacent, kind of the approach. We were joking about brand deals earlier, and I think that there's oftentimes a lot of misogyny in the way that people talk about influencers, because it's something that I think people can look at and say, oh, that's so easy. And it's absolutely not. I think these women are highly strategic.

Hayley Rawle [02:49:36] I think they. I think there's certainly some influencers who are more so than others, and obviously the child exploitation of it all plays in. But I think a lot of these women have made really strategic decisions in order to be where they are and to make the kind of money that they make. And I think they've done it while also under the confines of the patriarchy and also needing to still be stay at home moms in a significant capacity, et cetera, et cetera. And the reason I say all of that is because I think so much of Zach being able to discount Jen and mom talk as something silly and stupid and trivial, even though it's fully funding his medical school, is because of the means that she's using to make her money.

Hayley Rawle [02:50:15] And I think that that just feels misogynistic to me because, you know, if she was going to be a lawyer or something else, he might feel differently.

John Dehlin [02:50:25] I'm glad you brought that up, Hayley, because. Because I just 40 minutes ago said the last thing I'd want to be, you know, raised as is the child of a Mormon mom influencer. And I realized, whoa, wait a minute. First of all, I'm an influencer. Second of all, all my kids would say that they. Even though I don't feel like I've made them a part of at least an overt part of the quote, influencing that I do, I think they would all say that they have probably experienced significant harm just being associated with the dad who's an influencer. So in. I'm owning that that was probably hypocritical and maybe even misogynistic for me to say.

John Dehlin [02:51:11] And so. But, you know, and I think in my mind, I think, well, in Mormon stories, I try and do long form, you know, in depth, thoughtful, you know, people's stories. And I think there is a bias that probably a lot of us have just around, like. Like, well, cosmetic stuff is superficial or beauty stuff is superficial, or dancing is not as substantive. But I think I've. I'm sure I've got blind spots there that are misogynistic. So I'm going to own that and say thank you for helping me be more reflective about even what I said 30 minutes ago.

Hayley Rawle [02:51:52] Yeah, I mean, I appreciate you saying that. I think I do the same thing because I also consider myself different in some key ways. I also think there is a spectrum of this, right? There's loads of different, especially now. I mean, there's all different sorts of influencers and content creators. I think it was really interesting. Part of my approach to this show was maybe approaching it a little bit like, oh, I'm so different than these women because I got an English degree and this, you know, they do hair or whatever it may be. And I think that that's obviously just a normal instinct to have.

Hayley Rawle [02:52:27] But I think as I have become more integrated in the space of influencers, because again, of kind of the trajectory of how I've monetized my podcast is through brand deals and through social media deals. And the more influencers I've gotten to know, I'm constantly impressed by their intelligence, by, again, their strategy. And this is not to say I. Again, I think there's massive, massive issues in influencing. There's a. Over consumption, again, the child exploitation, the beauty standard stuff. I mean, even hearing you talk, talk, John, I was thinking, like, it'd be so interesting to have a conversation with you about how many comments you get being a podcaster about how you look versus how many comments I get about how I look.

Hayley Rawle [02:53:08] And I'm doing something similar to you. Not exactly the same, but just because I'm am a young female, I'm going to be perceived differently on the Internet. So I think there's so much to be said about that. It'd be fun to have a deeper conversation. But I do think that. But when you get a peek inside these women's lives, hopefully a lot of people have. Yes, of course there's cattiness and drama. And I think a lot of that also was probably strategic, too. Like, I think it's easy to discount women doing these things, but they're making a bag off of what they're doing. And I don't think that they're just dumb, you know, And I think it can be easy to perceive women, especially oftentimes women who look a certain way as being airheaded or ditzy. And I just think these women are so much more than that.

John Dehlin [02:53:57] Yeah, I don't know any of the Secret lies of Mormon Wives cast, but I do know Heather Gay, and she's freaking brilliant.

Hayley Rawle [02:54:05] Yeah, great example.

John Dehlin [02:54:06] Brilliant. She's articulate and she's also funny. And that's not mentioning her appearance, which I'm not gonna opine about, but I'm just saying, like. Like, she's freaking brilliant and wise, a great writer and super funny. And I, you know, I bow down to her talents for sure, as whatever you have to say about Real Housewives or whatever. She's freaking brilliant and a great businesswoman, I think.

Hayley Rawle [02:54:33] Yeah. Amen. She's a perfect example of that. And that seems to be the trajectory that a lot of these women from Secret Lives are on.

John Dehlin [02:54:41] Yeah. Well, I think the episode. I don't know if y' all want to cover anything else. I think the episode ends with Taylor having her baby. And Dakota is a super, you know, apparently a super supportive partner in that childbirth. And then I think it leaves us kind of wondering, I guess, a couple things. Is Taylor gonna stay with Dakota? Is Whitney gonna stay on the show? Anything y' all want to say about kind of how it all wraps up?

Gerardo Sumano [02:55:11] Doesn't Macy get on a call with

Hayley Rawle [02:55:14] Jenna, the mysterious Jenna.

John Dehlin [02:55:17] Oh, like, is. Was Dakota sexually unfaithful? Is kind of one of the cliffhangers,

Hayley Rawle [02:55:23] and apparently Jenna will be able to be the final yes or no on that.

John Dehlin [02:55:27] You said Jenna was on your podcast?

Hayley Rawle [02:55:29] Yeah, Jenna Jarvis is her name. We didn't talk about this. This was a while ago. Jenna actually has her own podcast, and she has a company called Vulnerability is Cool. She's. It's about, like, women's mental health and empowerment and stuff, so she's great. But apparently she was involved with Dakota, so.

John Dehlin [02:55:46] Yeah, that didn't come out in your interview.

Hayley Rawle [02:55:48] No, it didn't. I didn't even think to ask, unfortunately, at that point.

John Dehlin [02:55:52] Jenna, did you or did also you interviewed Jesse just really quickly, Like, I think she's perceived as the only truly ex Mormon of the eight. Any. Just quick thoughts on kind of how she's processed her ex Mormonism or if she's processed truth claims, the church, her faith?

Hayley Rawle [02:56:17] Yeah, yeah. I. I've been so impressed by Jesse for so many reasons. I think that one thing that really struck me that Jesse said was when she got casted on the show, she knew she was the only one who would be actually fully ex Mormon. And I think she was really thoughtful about the way that she sort of represented ex Mormonism. Not that she's claiming to represent all ex Mormons, but I think she was really thoughtful about being that representation in this dynamic. And so I. I just really credit her for that because I think she wanted to show up in a thoughtful way, especially as conversations unfolded around Mormon doctrine and culture and things like that.

Alyssa Witbeck [02:57:01] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [02:57:02] As far as her story, leaving the church, I think she has pretty similar trajectory as a lot of people with the COVID wave. She had a divorce in a bad Mormon marriage, which she spoke about on the show.

Hayley Rawle [02:57:14] And I also think that I learned a lot from Jesse. As far as, you know, being an ex Mormon myself, I'm constantly in dynamics with active Mormons because my family is. I'm still in Utah, and I think, you know, not that she behaved perfectly all the time, but I. I really enjoyed being able to see those dynamics play out on tv, because I think those are dynamics that most ex Mormons can definitely relate to, at least in some way. And I think she did a really good job of, you know, being willing to be in that mix of primarily Mormon women and. And be an ex Mormon and still participate and still, you know, be a close friend to all these women.

Hayley Rawle [02:57:55] So I really enjoyed talking with her, and I'm excited to see. I've also Just been wondering what this show will do to these women's faith journeys, and I'm curious if the show will kind of document that, because we already see some of these women unpacking on live tv. And then also with the response from the Mormon community, you can imagine that that could create some major dissonance in their faith, too.

John Dehlin [02:58:19] Certainly happened with Heather.

Hayley Rawle [02:58:21] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:22] Her deconstruction has been very public, including the publishing of her book, Bad Mormon, which the church didn't love.

Hayley Rawle [02:58:30] Yeah, I can imagine.

John Dehlin [02:58:31] Yeah. I mean, celebrities just don't bode well for the. For the Mormon. Celebrities don't bode well for the Mormon Church in the long run, on average. So. So that's interesting.

Gerardo Sumano [02:58:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:42] Do you all. Is there. Is there going to be a season two? Do we want there to be a season two? Are we excited for a season two? Do we have predictions on what's going to happen or hopes for what might happen?

Alyssa Witbeck [02:58:56] Hulu, please sign them for season two. And a season three. I will watch. I will watch this for the rest of my life, actually. I will just keep banging on John's door, be like, I want to talk about it.

Hayley Rawle [02:59:06] Yeah, Me and Alyssa, at the very least, that will watch any content you put out.

Guest 2 [02:59:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:59:12] Okay. So y' all want.

Hayley Rawle [02:59:15] I really do. One thing I do think that I was kind of trying to explain to a friend the other day in defense of this show because he's not a reality TV watcher. I do think we got something really unique with this first season because I don't think these women fully understood the game of reality tv. And so I think we got to see something a lot more authentic than we will in the future from these women. I think they probably learned a lot and will implement that. I still definitely want to see what happens, but I do think that that's part of what made this series such a hit is because a lot of these women were not. They didn't kind of know the rules or the game of reality tv. And so it made for really good reality tv.

Gerardo Sumano [02:59:56] Yeah.

Predictions, Final Thoughts, and Plugs

John Dehlin [02:59:58] Do we. Do we think everyone's gonna be back? Do you think someone might not be back? Do you all have predictions about.

Hayley Rawle [03:00:04] Do you think Whitney will be back?

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:06] I can't signal that she's not. Right.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:00:08] She has, but then she's also signaled that she will be.

Hayley Rawle [03:00:11] Yeah, she's teasing us.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:13] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:00:14] I don't know. I. I kind of expect her to come back.

Hayley Rawle [03:00:17] What does she have to lose?

Alyssa Witbeck [03:00:18] Exactly.

Hayley Rawle [03:00:18] If I were her, it's. You can only. Really. I mean, can only Go up. You can only go up, I think. Right.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:00:24] I would.

Hayley Rawle [03:00:25] And if people continue to dislike you, then at least maybe you're making money on the dislike. I don't know.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:30] But the show makes it look like the rest of the mom talkers don't like her and don't want her around. But is that just drama?

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:36] I think they all said the same on podcast, don't they?

Alyssa Witbeck [03:00:40] Yeah, on the podcast they've all said, like, they genuinely don't really like her, but I don't.

John Dehlin [03:00:45] I mean, they said that on podcast.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:00:48] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [03:00:49] I mean, they've just basically confirmed, like, this isn't made up.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:52] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [03:00:52] Beef. Like there were actual real issues. We don't like the way she moved that sort of thing. So, I mean, I'm sure production. No, just like. Yeah. The way she acts. Yeah. She's a great dancer, actually, now that you mention it. But I do. I'm sure production is doing everything they can to get that woman on season two. Because they kind of have to. I mean, they don't have to. I think the characters. There's enough there. But I do think that it would be hard to pivot away from Whitney. That doesn't.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:25] Jen is not. Said that she's gonna leave it.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:01:28] That's what she was saying on the. At the end. Because she's going off to med school and because on. I mean, I think seeing the fallout will be really interesting to see if Zach's like, they, you know, portrayed us terribly like, we can't and says, get off this. They could definitely.

Hayley Rawle [03:01:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:43] They definitely could shut this down. This is not looking good for the church.

Hayley Rawle [03:01:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:47] A faithful member would not be part of this. That could.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:50] But Macy and others have talked about, like, not face. Not having faced any repercussions on.

Guest [03:01:56] In.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:57] On church at church for the show.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:02:00] Right.

Hayley Rawle [03:02:00] Yeah. I don't think any of them have.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:02:02] Not yet.

Hayley Rawle [03:02:03] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:03] Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:02:04] But.

Hayley Rawle [03:02:04] Yeah, I doubt it would be in.

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:06] They didn't do anything, though. Like. Like the faithful ones that have temple recommends. They didn't do. Other than maybe not wearing their garments all the time.

Guest 2 [03:02:14] Right.

Guest [03:02:15] Exactly.

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:16] There's not. There's nothing there that would not allow them to have a temple recommend.

John Dehlin [03:02:22] I mean, obviously. Oh, go ahead.

Hayley Rawle [03:02:24] No, I was just wondering if any of them drank on Whitney.

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:27] Like a sip.

John Dehlin [03:02:28] It's like the first thing she did.

Hayley Rawle [03:02:29] She did have a sip. You're right.

John Dehlin [03:02:31] She drank on. Yeah.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:02:33] I don't think like Jen or Macy. I mean, they have coffee, but, like,

Hayley Rawle [03:02:36] they do talk about drinking coffee.

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:38] Which one?

Hayley Rawle [03:02:41] Macy said. Well, Maybe this was a podcast I listened to, but she said, yeah, I have an iced coffee every morning. Oh, also, I'm a swig apologist, but we can save that for another time because I've been seeing a lot of discourse around swig.

John Dehlin [03:02:53] What about the dental bills? What about the cavities?

Hayley Rawle [03:02:55] Here's my thing. I think it's hypocritical of ex Mormons to be so.

John Dehlin [03:03:00] Oh, about the cavities.

Hayley Rawle [03:03:01] Hateful and derogatory towards, like, the soda shops, because objectively speaking, alcohol is also terrible for you. We're not drinking soda because we think it's good for us. And obviously I don't think anyone's deluded into, like, thinking it's the best thing ever. But it's like, everyone has their vices. And the only reason it's hypocritical within Mormonism is because, oh, we won't drink coffee because it's bad for us. But we do drink soda. But I think my whole thinking around it is like, okay, I choose soda. That's what I choose instead of a cup of coffee every day. Because I like soda. Sue me.

John Dehlin [03:03:34] And wait, I've seen your TikTok. You also like latte days? Like, no, I tried Frappuccino.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:03:39] She's an excellent poser.

Hayley Rawle [03:03:43] I tried.

John Dehlin [03:03:43] What?

Hayley Rawle [03:03:44] You tried. I only do try. I only do try. I can't. I went on a journey to and I tried to document it to try and like coffee. I don't like it. I just want something cold and fizzy. But I feel like everyone being like, these women are so unhealthy for their 44 ounce soda. I'm like, a, look at them. They're not. And B, you're probably drinking a glass of wine every night. Like, it's just now.

John Dehlin [03:04:04] Wait, do you have an endorsement deal

Gerardo Sumano [03:04:05] with Fizz Just texted me and said, hey, Zach just texted me and said, haley, justifying my diet Coke addiction.

Hayley Rawle [03:04:14] I got you.

John Dehlin [03:04:14] All right, so, Julia, you make a short of Hayley. Is it simping for soda Utah?

Hayley Rawle [03:04:22] And there's so many Swig Fizz. So delicious. Can we get a cut of your guzzle? Yes, I'll take any one of them.

John Dehlin [03:04:30] He's just listed all six.

Hayley Rawle [03:04:32] There's more. But yes, yes, I want to cut.

John Dehlin [03:04:35] I want 10% of what? I mean, it's very Mormon. 10% of what our hater gets.

Hayley Rawle [03:04:39] There you go. You can be my manager for that.

John Dehlin [03:04:41] So if I don't drink alcohol, can I hate on soda shops or not?

Hayley Rawle [03:04:45] I think you have more standing to do So I really do.

John Dehlin [03:04:49] I have vices, so I'm not gonna.

Gerardo Sumano [03:04:51] Do you have cream with your coffee?

John Dehlin [03:04:54] I have. No, I don't. I used to, but I don't.

Gerardo Sumano [03:04:56] Oh, that's good.

Hayley Rawle [03:04:57] Honestly, a straight black coffee drinker, maybe that's different. I think part of it for me, too, is I'll have people. I'm like, I don't like coffee. And they'll be like, you should go to Dutch Bros and get a golden eagle with cold foam and caramel drizzle. I'm like, you cannot tell me that that's healthier than a diet Coke with sugar free coconut and fresh lime. That's all I'm saying.

John Dehlin [03:05:17] Full stop. Are you Alyssa Coffee? No coffee. You're a big time.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:05:20] I'm a big time coffee person. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:05:23] Yeah. It's that your family's, like, entrenched.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:05:25] We are entrenched in it.

Guest 2 [03:05:27] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [03:05:28] I wish I was. I need to talk to you. Maybe you can help me.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:05:31] I will take you on a journey.

Gerardo Sumano [03:05:32] Okay.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:05:32] It's like, my life goal. Yeah. I, like, literally, like, mailed some copy supplies to my tattoo artist because we, like, got on it. The conversation. I was like, listen, I just need to, like, pull everybody in.

John Dehlin [03:05:43] You have family members with coffee tattoos, right?

Alyssa Witbeck [03:05:46] I have a coffee tattoo. It's a coffee plant for my husband and I for a five year anniversary. Yeah. Because we love coffee together, so we are committed. So if I don't like it anymore, I'm gonna have to chop my arm off.

Hayley Rawle [03:05:57] I'm gonna get a swig.

John Dehlin [03:06:02] All right, well, this has been super fun. What do you think, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [03:06:06] And fun.

John Dehlin [03:06:06] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:06:07] For sure.

John Dehlin [03:06:07] Yeah, I agree. Well, we want to thank all our panelists. We had Britt Hartley on. We. Of course we had Samantha on.

Gerardo Sumano [03:06:15] Yeah.

Guest [03:06:16] Who.

John Dehlin [03:06:16] Any other former panelists that. I'm. Okay. Alyssa, it's been great to have you on.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:06:21] Thank you. It's been so fun.

John Dehlin [03:06:22] Yeah. Let's do it again. Can we do it again?

Alyssa Witbeck [03:06:24] Let's do it again.

John Dehlin [03:06:25] Okay. All right. And Hayley, it's so fun to have you back.

Guest [03:06:28] Thank you.

Hayley Rawle [03:06:28] I'm so happy to be here.

John Dehlin [03:06:29] Come anytime.

Gerardo Sumano [03:06:31] Thanks.

John Dehlin [03:06:31] Wanna want to plug your show one last time?

Hayley Rawle [03:06:34] Girls can't podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

John Dehlin [03:06:37] Accepting sponsors. Sponsors.

Hayley Rawle [03:06:39] Yes. Particularly from soda shop Props.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:06:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:06:43] Do you think we'll ever have a product deal or not?

Gerardo Sumano [03:06:45] We'll see. We'll see.

John Dehlin [03:06:47] I've tried to avoid it, honestly.

Gerardo Sumano [03:06:48] Yeah. But I don't know.

Hayley Rawle [03:06:50] No, no. Tick tock dances from YouTube.

John Dehlin [03:06:53] We were gonna do one.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:06:54] We were Gonna do one. You should find out.

Hayley Rawle [03:06:57] You should.

John Dehlin [03:06:58] All right. All right, well, thanks so much and come back soon. Thanks, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [03:07:03] Yeah, thank you.

John Dehlin [03:07:05] All right. And thanks to everyone for joining us today. Y' all are waving. You all want to wave to the. All right. Thanks everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Thanks to Julia for all she does in pre and and post production, as well as what she does to monitor the chats when Maven's gone and time codes and show notes. Thanks to Maven for jumping in to help with the comments today.

John Dehlin [03:07:28] And yeah, thanks to all of you who donate to make Mormon Stories in the Open Stories foundation possible. One of the reasons I don't do product deals is because I don't want to annoy my viewers and listeners. But the only way we can do that is if donors step up and support us. So the way you do that is you go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button, become a monthly donor and then we can pay Alyssa and Hayley and Julia and Gerardo and Maven and all the people that join. We can pay our women for their women's work and Gerardo too.

Alyssa Witbeck [03:07:59] Men pair. Women plus Gerardo.

John Dehlin [03:08:04] Anyway, thanks to the donors that make all this possible. We lose donors every month for whatever reason, so please step up and become a monthly donor. If you value content like this, we love your feedback, so leave it in the comments or you can email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com or Gerardo helped renovate our website. You can go to mormonstories.org There's a feedback form where you can give us feedback or tips or suggestions or ideas. We love to get that feedback. We love to hear from you. We'd also love you to apply to be on Mormon Stories if you think you have a cool story. If you think you're an engaging interviewee, we would love to have you apply to be a guest on Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [03:08:46] We do panels, we do long form interviews, etc so please check out our website as well. And yeah, I think that's it. So thanks for joining us today. Thanks to all the people who commented. Please subscribe and like our channel as well as Girls Camp. Be good to each other, be kind to each other and we hope to see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast and we'll see if there's more Secret Lives of Mormon Wives episodes in the future. All right, everybody, take care. See you soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.