Introducing Courtney and Today's Conversation

Gerardo Sumano [00:00:00] Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am the co host for today, Gerardo and I'm excited to introduce to you today a host for today's episode. Her name is Hayley Raul. She is known in our community for her amazing podcast Girls Camp. And today we invited Hayley to to try out something new. We wanted to have Hayley act as a host and and do an interview for us today, maybe in a little bit of different style than a usual Mormon Stories, maybe a little bit more conversational and just try something new. And what we basically wanted to do was bring Hayley to give other people's voice, hear other people's voices and also promote other platforms in in the ex Mormon space. And so I again, I'm excited to introduce you, Hayley. And Hayley, do you want to tell us a little bit about you? You've been on Mormon Stories before?

Hayley Rawle [00:01:09] Yes, of course. Yes. I'm super excited to be here. Honored to be guest hosting on Mormon Stories. I did a Mormon Stories episode. Gosh, I don't even exactly remember. I think it was probably around a year ago. And I host my own podcast called called Girls Camp. I love talking to people about their Mormon stories and I'm really excited. Today we are going to, as Gerardo said, have a conversational approach as well as really focusing in on kind of a specific piece of our guests story today, which I think is going to be make for a really good conversation.

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:48] Yeah. So. Well, Hayley, take it away. You want to introduce to us our guest for today?

Hayley Rawle [00:01:54] Yes, I would love to. So we are joined today, which makes me extra excited. We have a phenomenal guest, Courtney Kimball. Welcome, Courtney to Mormon Stories.

Courtney Kimpel [00:02:03] Thank you.

Hayley Rawle [00:02:04] We're so excited to have you. Courtney has many stories to tell and we are going to be talking, as I mentioned, we'll set some context, get an idea for Courtney's Mormon upbringing and then we are going to be really digging into some experiences that she had that say a lot about sexual education and lack thereof, about sexual consent, about the way that the LDS Church often handles sexual issues that arise. And so that's kind of going to be the focus of the conversation today. And I really appreciate Courtney coming and sharing about this because it can be a very difficult thing to speak to. But unfortunately I think it's very relatable and obviously very important. So with all that said, the first thing that I want to ask Courtney is what is your hope in sharing today or your intention in coming on Mormon Stories and telling us these stories?

Courtney Kimpel [00:03:01] Yeah, I think it's just a conversation that doesn't get to be had in a kind of a public space like

Hayley Rawle [00:03:08] a lot of girls.

Courtney Kimpel [00:03:09] I know we've kind of had that talk. My. My girlfriend's in high school, My girlfriend's in college. It's common within that. That. That space of like, okay, this is what, like, the boys do. And nobody really talks about it in public because it's kind of like more of a shameful thing a little bit. Unfortunately, either girls are embarrassed by it or. Or people kind of look down on. On girls for talking about it. And so just bringing that out into the public eye a little bit more, creating a little bit more of a conversation around it and showing that it's. It's kind of subtle things that can be really damaging to us women. Not even like the stories that we hear so much in the public space outside of the church, but these smaller things that can actually really hurt and be damaging.

Hayley Rawle [00:04:00] Absolutely. Yeah. I appreciate you saying that because I do think it's very stigmatized to talk about. I think it's very taboo, especially if you have a Mormon background. And as you said, I think amongst women, oftentimes those conversations are maybe being had amongst peers and things like that. But it's difficult to have these types of conversations publicly because of the shame and the stigma. But as you said, I think that is a hugely important thing to do so that we start removing the stigma and can actually, you know, address some of these issues that are so prevalent. So thank you so much for that. Let's start out by hearing a little bit more about your context. Growing up as a Mormon person, where did you grow up? What was Mormonism like in your household? Just tell us what it was like being you as a Mormon girl.

Growing Up Mormon Across Different Communities

Courtney Kimpel [00:04:56] Yeah, so we. We moved around a lot when I was younger. My dad did a lot of schooling, bouncing around, and so I experienced the Mormon church in a lot of different capacities and areas. Even after high school, I moved a bunch and had a lot of different experiences. So I will say Mormon church is very different. Depending on the segment, the country that you're in and stuff. Your experiences with people are very different. So most of mine focus a lot in the Utah and Idaho area. Specifically for me, when I was about six, I remember I was obsessed with dinosaurs. That was, like my fixation for it.

Courtney Kimpel [00:05:37] Read everything I could about them. I even went around licking rocks because somebody said that if you lick a dinosaur bone, it'll, like, stick to your tongue a little bit. A rock will not. I was obsessed. And at that time in the church, in one of the Sunday school lessons that we had or something, somebody said something about the concept about a day being a thousand years, which absolutely did not line up with anything that I learned about dinosaurs. And so I remember asking my mom why, why that timeframe didn't work, and she just kind of like brushed it off and was like, oh, it's we, you know, who really knows?

Courtney Kimpel [00:06:16] We can. We'll figure out someday. And that was just a moment that never clicked for me. I never forgot that ever, ever, ever. She doesn't remember those questions, but I very much do. And so nothing from that Mormon or that moment on ever made sense to me about Mormonism.

Courtney Kimpel [00:06:36] And so never. I was always kind of fighting against it. So I don't come into any of this with any sort of like totally shattered glass ceiling or anything. It was never like, I really believe in this. Now I've lost it. It was more being required to go to church up until I was 18. I moved the day after I graduated high school, moved down here to Utah and didn't go again.

Hayley Rawle [00:07:04] Wow. Wow. I am so impressed by so 6 year old Courtney having those types of questions.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:11] Just, just to give a little bit of context to our listeners who might not be Mormon.

Hayley Rawle [00:07:15] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:15] Do you want to explain why that would have been a problem? The dinosaur bone being super old?

Courtney Kimpel [00:07:22] You guys might be a touch more in invest or knowing about that more than me actually, or Hayley.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:28] Do you want to.

Hayley Rawle [00:07:29] Actually, this is funny because I just talked about this a little bit on the girls camp podcast. It seems like it's kind of split amongst the Mormon community where some people are actually taught, not doctrinally, but even culturally, that dinosaurs are not real, that dinosaur bones have been planted on Earth. Because dinosaur bones really challenge the evolution perspective that Mormonism has. Because as Courtney said, if you believe the Adam and Eve story and how things have evolved since then, then it wouldn't make sense that something that old could exist on earth. I don't know exactly the doctrinal standpoint of the church on that right now, but I do know that it does create some problems when you compare it with the origin story of the earth as told by Mormonism.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:20] Yeah, yeah. I think also the. I mean, I. Growing up, I was told that the earth is 7,000 years old. So that's a problem with dinosaurs.

Courtney Kimpel [00:08:40] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:40] Because if the earth was created 7,000 years ago and having bones that are super much more, much more older than that, it kind of becomes a problem.

Hayley Rawle [00:08:49] Yeah, absolutely. I was not thinking about that at six myself, but I Think that's super impressive. I love how interested you were in that. I wanted to ask if you were having already as a six year old, not buying into this Mormon doctrine, seeing this really core kind of discrepancy. What was it like growing up not fully bought in, but having to go to church? What were you experiencing at church? How did you feel about the things you were learning even as you already didn't fully buy into it?

Courtney Kimpel [00:09:19] I mean it was rough at that time when I was like that 6 to 10 range. I was in Denver, Colorado. So church again was a little bit different at that point. If I remember it feeling like a little bit more like people coming together who are maybe a little bit more misunderstood. So it was a lot more of like a welcoming kind of community. And I remember the adults being really cool to me. And then we moved up to Rexburg and that's an entirely different ball game in and of itself. I went from being the only Mormon kid out of five of us in the entire school up to now being one of like 96, 98% Mormon population within the school and seminary was there and you'd go into class and you're talking about church things in class.

Courtney Kimpel [00:10:09] And that was a moment where I went from just kind of like existing through a church of hey, this doesn't really make sense. You get baptized because your parents tell you to get baptized and just kind of existing to now being like, okay, here's the problem. I don't like the way that these people are. I don't like the kids the way that they are.

Courtney Kimpel [00:10:30] Now you're being judged in junior high and high school, which is typically like a hard time anyways in addition to are you cool enough? This is your ha. I was not by the way, like I have been with like the clothes or anything like that anyways to now are you a good enough Mormon also?

Courtney Kimpel [00:10:49] And those things that all the teenagers you want to do anyways, now you're being judged for those things as well. And just that double standard anyways. And then within the church, the adults are all used to every kid that they are talking to being Mormon. And now I'm very much not. I have a little bit of a stronger personality sometimes. I don't have a problem standing for what I do think. I don't think that I particularly am abrasive about it. But if they ask me my opinion, I'm not going to pretend that it's something else just to be that way. So seminary lessons are rough.

Courtney Kimpel [00:11:30] When you have like your time, you Take your time out of your class. It's built into your class schedule to go to seminary throughout your, your day at school. And so you can't skip that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:43] Can you tell us a little bit some stories that if you remember about like challenging something on seminary or in class. And also, did you mention that in. In a public school, teachers like out of seminary would like about church things?

Courtney Kimpel [00:12:00] Absolutely.

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:01] Wow.

Courtney Kimpel [00:12:02] Oh, without a doubt that it would be conversations about like, Sunday, what do you guys do? We're going to church. Like, it was very, very much an open, this is the religion, this is what we learned in church. On this day. There's lots of just conversation being tied in about, yeah, brother, whoever.

Courtney Kimpel [00:12:25] And it's like a fellow teacher at church said this and it'd just be like the start of the lesson that was just kind of like normal conversation for them. And anyone who didn't know anything about the church would have been very confused coming into like these lessons and stuff. Seminary.

Courtney Kimpel [00:12:44] I remember I had one teacher, I was, I was, I was a little rude. I would put my head down and like during class or whatever I want. Teacher, you have like those combined desks came up and like picked up my chair was combined and like dropped it to wake me up. It was cool.

Hayley Rawle [00:13:00] Wow.

Courtney Kimpel [00:13:00] Yeah. It was a good time.

Hayley Rawle [00:13:01] Wow. Yeah. I'm actually surprised by how integrated Mormonism was, even with public schooling, because I grew up in Provo, Utah, very much heart of Provo, Utah. And it sounds like Rexburg is potentially even worse in that way. Yeah. Which is surprising. I mean, I know people, a lot of people call Rexburg, Idaho mini Provo, but it almost seems like the miness of it, it's even more insular. And it sounds like that potentially makes that lack of separation even worse.

Courtney Kimpel [00:13:35] I think that it having. So I lived in Orem, just very close to Provo, so I have had experience kind of living in both places. I think the. The little bit of advantage that Provo has is being part of a much larger city and network. So there are a few more people coming in that aren't really or aren't part of the Mormon church. And so there's slightly more diversity as opposed to Rexburg. Your next nearest town in either direction is about 15 minutes on the highway. And so it's a very, very secluded, circular area. Everyone knows everyone. It's always a conversation, always a joke. You can't go out into town without running into somebody that you went to church with, somebody that you saw like last Sunday over the weekend.

Courtney Kimpel [00:14:21] And most of them Grew up forever in there. The number of kids I went to school with where they had never moved anywhere else, they'd never lived anywhere else, they all knew each other. And so it really kind of creates this culture around talking about things that other places wouldn't. It's a little more taboo. Talk about your religion outside of like a religious area. You kind of walk on eggshells a little bit there. It's one of the first questions that anybody asks you. Even to this day at work. My customers will ask me, hey, you know, just so you're Mormon, right? And you gotta kinda steer away from that.

Hayley Rawle [00:14:59] Wow. Yeah, I think that's such an important piece of it too because especially foreshadowing your story where a lot of the things that we're going to be speaking about are lack of sexual education. I think it's important to establish how connected in some of these areas, the churches, with public education. Before we get into that, I want to ask one more follow up question. You mentioned a lot of comparison, particularly around are you Mormon enough? Being a good Mormon person. If any stories come to mind for you of how that was happening or what more about what that was like to be experiencing that comparison around righteousness. Essentially it was

Purity Culture, Modesty, and Body Shame

Courtney Kimpel [00:15:41] as far as like a specific story. Among my peers, there's not necessarily one that exactly jumps out. Just more side conversations or people coming up and be like, hey, did you hear so and so said this? They would discuss, especially in like that 12 to 14 year, the girls would discuss personal progress. I don't know if that's like still a thing, but that would be a conversation like you would be included or excluded from a group depending on how far you were into the program and how many ribbons that you've gotten. And if you weren't like on track for it, then you'd get the look.

Courtney Kimpel [00:16:21] And as girls, we know what that look is. Just like that, up, down, and then like turn away. So things like that. I do remember also in terms of comparison for within my family and my mom, I remember her coming to me one time and we were just kind of talking and she started crying because I wasn't on pace to serve a mission. I was very, I mean I was very upfront about how I felt about this. I respect my parents a lot. I don't have a terrible relationship with them or anything like that. So it's very difficult to see her kind of crying about that.

Courtney Kimpel [00:16:55] But she's like, what am I doing wrong compared to all these other moms? She's seen all these Other moms with all these other kids that are preparing for their mission, they're going to church, they're on the outside at least being these perfect kids. And what am I like, what is she doing wrong where she doesn't have that and she's going to lose that. So comparison within the family of K. Well, I'm clearly, I'm not good enough for you.

Hayley Rawle [00:17:21] So yeah, that's super difficult. I think the parents, I think about this a lot how a lot of times, especially in a high demand religion like Mormonism, the way that the kids behave is even more so a direct reflection on the parents and their righteousness and it creates a lot of really difficult toxic dynamics. I wanted to ask you, growing up, maybe in those teenage years that we're talking about, what were the messages you were, you were receiving either from church lessons at school, from your family culture, what were the messages you were getting about sex, about your body, Whether that's modesty or sex directly, what were you learning about those things?

Courtney Kimpel [00:18:04] Cover it up. I mean that was, that's like your primary, like don't show your shoulders, don't show your knees. Heaven forbid that somebody sees you and looks at you and thinks that you have a body. Right? The, the conversation around sex up there was pretty much non existent other than cover it up, abstinence. That was it.

Courtney Kimpel [00:18:34] There was, there was never anything more. I've heard stories of like in high school, there's like your sex ed class and you know, you see it in the movies and stuff. That's, that's my only experience is in the movies is seeing what they, they teach. Their. Our, our sex ed class was a hygiene class in fifth grade that was like, brush your teeth and wear deodorant. We never ever had a conversation with anyone and church leaders, parents, anything about STDs, about condoms. It was just, hey, if we don't do it now, if we don't talk about it, it's not happening. And I had, sorry, I hit the mic.

Courtney Kimpel [00:19:18] I had a friend who, she was a year older than me, so I must have been, I would have been a sophomore, she would have been a junior. And I remember talking to her about sex kind of, and she goes, and she just starts laughing and she's like, I don't, I don't really know how that happens. And I was like, okay, what do you, what do you mean you don't know how? Well, I know you both got to be naked, but I was like, oh my heck, you are a junior in high school. Yeah, but it's. Her parents never taught her. And if your parents don't say anything and you have friends that you don't really have that conversation with, then you're not gonna know. You jet just like her. She genuinely had no clue.

Hayley Rawle [00:20:06] Yeah, I'm not surprised by that. Unfortunately, I'm not. And. But it is, I mean, to your point, you're not being taught about it really. And I think there are ways that. I mean, my education was similar. We learned abstinence only. I remember eventually in an. In an anatomy class, we talked about sexual reproductive organs and how those work together, but nothing about sex beyond sheer anatomy and then abstinence only, which obviously understanding how complicated sex is and how many dynamics go into sex, it's just so unfortunate. And then, yeah, you have people like that who don't even know what sex is. And as we'll talk about later on in this conversation, that makes people really vulnerable as well to sexual assault and to rape and to things like that.

Hayley Rawle [00:20:56] So it's just deeply unfortunate. And I'm glad for the people. It sounds like you had friends at least that you could kind of discuss some of those things with. But still, is is not best to be learning from your peers at that

Courtney Kimpel [00:21:09] point, the ones who are also going through the same thing that you're going through. Yeah, probably not the best to hear. Yeah, this is normal. This is how it is.

Hayley Rawle [00:21:17] Absolutely. I wanted to ask, as much as you're comfortable sharing, and I can share a little bit of my own experience growing up as a Mormon girl and having relationships where I was sometimes lightly, sometimes less lightly, exploring sexually and experiencing so much shame around that. You also brought up modesty. I had a lot of shame about dressing immodestly. A lot of times people calling me out for my hemlines and the bishop calling me into his office to talk about wearing a bikini. I'm curious if you want to speak to any of those things that happened to you.

Courtney Kimpel [00:21:53] Yeah, absolutely. I, I like, I like I said a little bit of a stronger personality. So rather than shame, I never felt the shame for anything that I was doing. It was more like I felt like I needed to just stand strong. And I said, not necessarily be abrasive, but I had to defend myself all the time. And absolutely getting called out about the.

Courtney Kimpel [00:22:21] Your, your clothes. And I wore a tank top one time out into town with jeans, and my mom called me and was like so and so called me and said that you're wearing a tank top. I was not allowed to wear anything showing my shoulders Anything showing my niece that was like the rules, including with like swimwear and like I could wear shorts and a one piece.

Courtney Kimpel [00:22:52] So the bikini was out for me. Yeah, that, that was out. And it's cold enough up there. I probably wouldn't have worn one swimming anywhere anyways.

Hayley Rawle [00:23:01] But for practical reasons. Yeah.

Courtney Kimpel [00:23:04] Yes, precisely. But the. Yeah. Being called out and people being in your business, just like somebody at church who saw me around town who called my mom to tell him I was wearing a tank top. Are you kidding me?

Hayley Rawle [00:23:19] It's wild. The community policing also sounds really bad because as you mentioned, it sounds like in, at least for part of your adolescence, you were living in Rexburg, which was probably smaller, more people knew each other. And I mean, things like that I think happen in any predominantly LDS community where members of the community feel like it's their job to tell young women what they can and can't wear, which is just really absurd. What were those conversations with your parents like? I mean, you left the house in the tank top. Did you have to hide that and put it on after you left?

Courtney Kimpel [00:23:51] I became, I became a pro at wearing a T shirt and then taking the T shirt off when I was out and then remembering to put it back on by the time I came back or like if I was wearing at the time. Because of that, I didn't have a lot of body confidence.

Courtney Kimpel [00:24:06] So throughout all my teen years, the most risque that I got would be like a spaghetti strap tank top and boys basketball shorts. So it was never even like I was sitting here with full midriff showing, wandering around. Anything like that is your standard comfortable attire. And I, my cousins are not religious, they live in Wisconsin. So we'd go out there and see them for summers and they'd be wearing these cute, like these cute shorts and these cute tank tops. And we'd be dying in Wisconsin. Wisconsin heat and humidity, miserable. We'd be dying. And still that was a no go. They, they'd offer us, hey, you can you can you wear shorts? And it would be, it would be a strong no from my mom. No, we're not going to do that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:57] Wow.

Hayley Rawle [00:24:58] You weren't allowed to wear. I just want to clarify this. You were supposed to cover your knees, so you weren't even allowed to wear shorts that didn't cover your knees, is that right?

Courtney Kimpel [00:25:06] Correct.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:07] And just to give people some context, because some people that from other parts of the country might think, might hear this and, and think of Rexburg as like an FLDS community where everyone's wearing long dresses and there's not, like, electricity and stuff. Like Rexburg is. Is like a thriving community like Madison High School. I've heard great things about it as far as, like, public education. And I mean, economically, the town does very good because it's a college town, so most people there are professors who are making pretty decent money. And so. So it's not like an FLDS commune. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:25:50] Great point. Yeah. And I think another point to make there. I'm glad you said that, Gerardo, is that although not every predominantly LDS community or even communities that aren't predominantly lds, but just pockets of the LDS communities in other places, they still have, I think, to varying degrees, but I don't think that these dynamics are unique. I think there's maybe just varying degrees of. Of how that happens and how much shame there is around it, how much policing. But I think sometimes these more extreme cases can actually be really enlightening towards how this happens in other communities, Although it's maybe not as obvious or as blatant.

Hayley Rawle [00:26:30] So I think that's important to point out, too, lest someone says, oh, well, that's just a Rexburg problem. I don't think that's the case at all. I wanted to ask you, Courtney, you. As we said we want to. We're talking about sexual education, sexual consent, and I wanted to ask you about your first sexual experience that we've talked about briefly before that we are going to talk about here, and how what that sexual experience was like for you and how some of these dynamics came into play in that first sexual experience that you had.

Early Experiences with Consent and Assault

Courtney Kimpel [00:27:03] Yeah, so they went. So they went in, like, very kind of in varying degrees. And I don't know that I'd necessarily said that before because there are quite a few of them.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:17] The.

Courtney Kimpel [00:27:18] You know, when you're just, like, kissing and stuff. I had a. I had a very sweet guy for my first kiss, and that was excellent. And then moving on from there, that was when I really started seeing how men would just kind of start to expect things.

Courtney Kimpel [00:27:39] I ended up meeting somebody, and it was just kind of like a fun night. And we ended up making out, and he started, like, his hands down my pants, not saying, you know, not saying anything. There was no conversation about it. I just met this guy, and I was like, no, no, we're. We're not going there. And just kept pushing. And this is going to be, I think, kind of the general theme or. Or circle around what all of my stories kind of have to do with. Is that exact concept around. No. And what the Men are not taught. And what the women are not taught.

Courtney Kimpel [00:28:20] I was never taught. If I say no and they don't listen to walk away. I was never taught that that my, My bad. I was never taught that that was not. Or that that was okay, that that was acceptable. And the, the men, to the, to their point were never taught that when a girl says no, that's. That's no. And it's. That's a countrywide thing in, in and out of the church. But slightly, I think slightly worse with all my experiences with men who were raised Mormon, particularly in that area that they were never taught. Okay, I, I need to stop. This isn't the time to keep pushing this.

Courtney Kimpel [00:29:06] This isn't the time to, like, keep going for it. And as a woman, I was never taught, hey, this is. I can walk away, I can leave. And so then that. That's, that's going to follow a lot of my stories that I have here. So as he keeps pushing this and I keep like saying no and like moving his hand and he keeps pushing it and I'm in his truck with him. We're just alone out by the river. Then I don't really have an escape anyways.

Courtney Kimpel [00:29:37] And he probably, honestly, he probably doesn't even realize how much that stuck to me and how, how bad that really was because he wasn't taught otherwise. So to. To these men's credit, I don't really. I. I don't hate any of them. I don't hold anything really against these men in particular. But that's why this conversation needs to be had, because they weren't taught that what they were doing is so incredibly damaging. Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:30:05] Wow. Wow. It's crazy even hearing you tell the beginning of that story and we'll get into all the others, like the physical reaction I even have. And I just want to say again, thanks for sharing these things because we talked about all the reasons it can be hard and I appreciate it. And I'm with you because I feel that too. So many things already coming into play. Right. Of.

Hayley Rawle [00:30:29] Not only are we not taught about consent when it comes to sexual experiences, if you also don't even fully understand what sex is like we were talking about with your friend, it's really difficult because you don't even. You might be feeling discomfort, but you can't really describe why or what. You don't know what your boundaries are because you haven't had the opportunity to consider what your boundaries are when the boundary is just don't do anything besides maybe kiss standing up and That's a peck, you know, so it's just so real what you're saying. And I appreciate the compassion that you're holding for the boys and men in these situations because they also haven't been taught those things.

Hayley Rawle [00:31:11] But it's also really unfortunate because whether it's good guys who are confused or it's not so good guys who are using that to their advantage, there's again, a whole spectrum of that, but it doesn't minimize at all the damage that it does to women. With this first situation you're talking about in the truck, was that a Mormon boy as well? How did you meet that person? Like, I'm just curious kind of what these relationships were like and how much they were impacted by the Mormonism.

Courtney Kimpel [00:31:42] I think so. I really don't know him very well at all. It was just one of those. I think we went to see skate park or something and we're all just started hanging out at the skate park and then we kind of just split off and we're talking and then obviously one thing leads to another. So. I do know that his family was Mormon. How much he was involved or not, I'm not entirely sure. But when, when you come from a Mormon family, you definitely have that. That upbringing that is there. But yeah, I didn't. I didn't really know him too well at all. Just come at. And never, never really talked again.

Hayley Rawle [00:32:24] Yeah, yeah, no, totally. You mentioned having. You mentioned having multiple other stories like that. What else comes to mind for you around those similar dynamics of lack of consent in sexual situations like that?

Courtney Kimpel [00:32:39] A lot of us really start getting into college where I. There's a ton of them, which is really, really sad because most of These men were 19 all the way up to like 27, still having. Still having these experiences and still being that way. And several of them, like I said, is genuinely. They didn't know better. Some of them were absolutely taking advantage of. Of that, but others. Others just didn't know.

Hayley Rawle [00:33:12] Can you speak to the time. Was that time in the truck? Did you. Was that when you lost your virginity?

Courtney Kimpel [00:33:17] No, no, no, that was. That just went to the fingering level. I don't. Can. Can we go that.

Hayley Rawle [00:33:27] We'll cut it out if needed. Yeah, I mean, and I'm curious. I. It's an interesting thing to talk about too, because I'm not needing to get into like details unnecessarily. I guess I'm curious maybe just speaking to when you lost your virginity and what that felt like for you. I know you mentioned Being a child, that you were kind of able to divorce yourself a little bit from the shame around modesty and things like that, which I think is super impressive. But I guess I'm curious about kind of pinpointing that exact situation because I think that can be kind of like a, a milestone for a lot of people and can bring up a lot of stuff.

Hayley Rawle [00:34:02] So I'm just curious about if, of course, if you're comfortable speaking to that experience, if you want to speak to that at all. Maybe not even necessarily exactly what happened, but just kind of the circumstances and what that felt like for you. Because having sex before marriage, a lot of Mormons do that and a lot of Mormons don't do that because, you know, we're told it's a sin next to murder to have sex outside of marriage. So it's a really big deal. So anything that you feel comfortable sharing about that?

Courtney Kimpel [00:34:31] Yeah, absolutely. So once that, you know, experience in the truck happened, you kind of are like, well, that happened. So that ruined. That's terrible to, to say it like that. But it's like now it doesn't matter to kind of hold on to anything else now, like that part's passed. So I think I was probably about 16 when that happened. So when I was 17, I had another experience with, with somebody that was relatively traumatizing outside of the, the sexual space.

Courtney Kimpel [00:35:09] But as, as women, when we have traumatizing things happen, we go change our hair. So I cut my hair off, I cut my hair way short, dyed it very, very dark. Very, very hard to picture now, I'm told, but it's, it visually aged me by a good five, six years. So I went from looking like I was 14 to now I was looking like I was 20. I very easily was passing as a 20 year old. And so I started going up to the parties up on campus that they'd have like the dances and stuff.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:47] Byu Idaho.

Courtney Kimpel [00:35:48] BYU Idaho. BYU Idaho. Now by party, what you picture is not at all what, what it's like

Hayley Rawle [00:35:55] up there, but a very dry, sober party. I mean, who knows, maybe. I'm sure there might be somebody out

Courtney Kimpel [00:36:01] in the trucks that were not so sober, but this is like a kind of, you know, your dances or your hands on hips, hands on shoulders, and leave room for Jesus still. But there's, they were still a little bit more wild than, than the high school parties, right? Because now you're in college and everybody's like kissing at that point. And so I went to one of these parties and I met somebody there and Exchanged numbers and we started talking. So I'm 17 at this point and he was 24. Now, in fairness, the night that I met him, I told him that I was 19.

Courtney Kimpel [00:36:42] And so we were texting about. I want to say it was like a week later or something. And he was being pretty flirty and I told him, I said, hey, you know what? I lied to you. I am so sorry. I was just at the party. I'm 17. And he was of course, very taken aback, understandably. So I don't blame him at all. As now an adult looking back. Holy cow, that's terrible of me to do, but that's what I did. But as soon as he started getting really flirty and stuff, then I told him. Well, he kept.

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:13] And Courtney, just to give a little bit of context, why would you lie about your age?

Courtney Kimpel [00:37:19] Just to go into. Just be in the parties.

Hayley Rawle [00:37:21] Okay.

Courtney Kimpel [00:37:21] You know, just to. Just to be hanging out and fit in and. Yeah, yeah. Had nothing to do. Obvious. I'm saying I'm 19. I'm not trying to get alcohol. I didn't drink. It was just so that I wouldn't be kicked out of. Right, Said parties.

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:37] Makes sense.

Courtney Kimpel [00:37:38] Yes. So after I told him, he was very taken back. Well, then he kept talking to me anyway, so. And kept texting me and inviting me over and I went over to his place one time, we're watching a movie and so then he starts making out with me. And of course, as. As the high school girl, it's all this older guy. This older guy's into me and he's hanging out and high school boys are dumb and you've like, at this point, you've gone through high school with all the high school boys and they're kind of boring comparatively.

Hayley Rawle [00:38:12] Right, sure. And there's also a power dynamic. Right. He's much older than you, so there's going to be a power dynamic regardless of how that's perceived as a 17 year old.

Courtney Kimpel [00:38:21] Yes.

Hayley Rawle [00:38:22] Yeah.

Courtney Kimpel [00:38:22] Yep. Absolutely. And so then things just kind of progressed well at that point, I was still a virgin. I told him that that had been the conversation and that I wanted to stay that way. I don't know what I was waiting for. There wasn't anything like, particularly, hey, like I'm waiting until marriage or anything, but he wasn't the one that I wanted to lose it to. I wasn't the power dynamic. Right.

Hayley Rawle [00:38:50] I love this guy.

Courtney Kimpel [00:38:51] I want to be with him. Right.

Hayley Rawle [00:38:53] Was he also a student at.

Courtney Kimpel [00:38:54] Yes.

Hayley Rawle [00:38:55] Okay, so he was a student at byu, Idaho.

Courtney Kimpel [00:38:57] Yes.

Hayley Rawle [00:38:58] Which would Also mean, just for some context, he would be at least having to say he was abiding by the honor code, which would mean absolutely no sex out of marriage.

Courtney Kimpel [00:39:08] Yes. Or. Or touching or. That honor code is pretty Dang it.

Hayley Rawle [00:39:12] Yeah, True. Much more. Yeah. I mean, much less than sex. Yeah, good point.

Courtney Kimpel [00:39:15] Yes, yes, yes. And so at that point. Right. The whole second base had been ruined for me. So fine, whatever. We could do that. So he's already breaking the honor code at that point and kind of the law when you're 17 and he's 24 and he'd start, like, pushing those boundaries, and I'd again say no, and he'd keep pushing the boundaries.

Courtney Kimpel [00:39:41] I did keep going and hanging out with him because. Power dynamic. And it was somebody who wanted to hang out with me, as terrible as that as that sounds, I kind of alienated myself a little bit from a lot of people within the community because they were Mormon. My friend's mom said she couldn't. After I cut my hair, my friend's mom said she couldn't hang out with me anymore because I cut my hair and was clearly, like, going off the rails.

Courtney Kimpel [00:40:10] And so it was somebody giving me attention and hanging out. And I think. I think a lot of women can. Can relate to that. Just somebody who even, you know, they're not good. You know that they aren't treating you well, but they want you. You want to feel wanted.

Hayley Rawle [00:40:26] Absolutely. Yeah. And you're getting affection again. The power dynamic, it speaks to the isolation you probably felt doing things that you felt you perceived at least were different from what your peer group was doing. Makes total sense.

Courtney Kimpel [00:40:39] Yeah. So that kind of continued a couple times going over there, him pushing boundaries and stuff like that. And then one time we were just watching a movie, and he started, like, really, really pushing these boundaries. And again, you. I. You say no. Like, no, I don't want to go there. No, that's not the. This is not how I want it to happen. And they just keep pushing. They just keep pushing. And out of. I've. Because of some of my upbringing and some things that happened in my past, there. There was a little bit of physical abuse in my life. So I did have a little bit of a fear of. Of angering men and being hit. Sorry, that was not included in my outline.

Hayley Rawle [00:41:30] They gave me.

Courtney Kimpel [00:41:30] This gets a little dark, but. But that does have a lot to do with a lot of the rest of my stories as well. And so you reach that fight or flight or freeze. Freeze is never talked about. And so you just you freeze.

Courtney Kimpel [00:41:46] And so that's kind of what happened when he just kept pushing it and wasn't stopping it. Just kind of freeze. And you don't. I don't really know exactly what was going on. On even. Which seems. It seems like something where you would know, but if you're already used to, like. Like, you're kind of at second base. And then our things happen. And so when. When he was done, then he started. I think my sister called me. My sister called me. She goes, what are you doing? And in the background, he's, like, having sex. And then, like, started laughing.

Courtney Kimpel [00:42:25] And that was like. Like my crush moment. That was my moment of, like, acceptance. Like, okay, Yep, That. That did. That is what just happened. And the. Like I said to his point, he wasn't also taught the whole no, but he was also taking advantage of the situation as well. And then. And then laughing.

Hayley Rawle [00:42:49] Ugh. I'm really sorry that you experienced that. That's really awful. I also think around the no thing. Yeah, obviously, that person was probably failed in their sexual education as well. But also, no is a word that that person should have understood.

Courtney Kimpel [00:43:05] And it was a previous conversation we had had of, I don't want to lose my virginity.

Hayley Rawle [00:43:10] Yes, you had been clear.

Courtney Kimpel [00:43:12] Yes, it was. That was not. It's not like it was like a night out. You're just me and this person. Lines are blurred or anything like that. We had had that talk before of, no, I don't want to. And he just like boiling a frog in the water. You just drop him in there, keep turning the temperature up and up and up until now. That's what's happened.

Hayley Rawle [00:43:31] Yeah. Just push the boundaries until you're at that point again, so sorry. That's really terrible to experience. And the laughter. I'm as kind of like that final note where not only do you feel so taken advantage of and used and abused, but then just seeing this person just, like, really not care and think it's funny. I can just imagine, like you said would be deeply crushing. Sorry, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:00] Yeah. Are you good? Courtney, you mentioned that one of the reasons that took you. I mean, that made this happen, was that you already felt ruined by having gone second base earlier on with someone else. Can you just talk. Talk a little bit about what you mean when you say ruined. Does that have anything to do with what you were taught in Mormonism or in a home about, you know, going up too far? And then you're kind of like, you know, in Mormonism, there's the stories of. Or the lessons of chewed gum or the brownie that has dirt in it or something like that. I don't know if you've heard those stories, but I didn't hear those ones, no.

Courtney Kimpel [00:44:44] But I get what you're saying.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:46] Yeah. Did you hear. Did you have anything to do with your upbringing or what you were taught?

Courtney Kimpel [00:44:52] I think. I think that it was probably 50. 50 yet. 50, yes. Because of the upbringing. As far as, like, no, you're not supposed to do this, but like I mentioned before, like, that shame wasn't really an issue for me because I never.

Courtney Kimpel [00:45:05] I. I never felt like, oh, the Mormon church is right and I shouldn't be doing this. But also, it's like you put. You put so much of your heart and energy, like, these are milestone moments in your life, and you expect them to go one way. The movies all say that they're gonna go one way, and then they. They don't. And it's like, oh, well, what? It's like, like, okay, well, that's. That's ruined and messed up. And that's still. Absolutely. I'm still very, very affected from that. I never.

Courtney Kimpel [00:45:37] I never built the emotional attachment to sex because of that. Each of those experiences being something that was taken away from me and should have been these key moments for building a relationship with someone you're seeing and hanging out with and that you really like, and now together you take that step that I'm now divorced. That was a key part in kind of our divorce. We're still very, very good friends. We've talked about this quite a.

Courtney Kimpel [00:46:09] That my not being emotionally attached to it made it very difficult for him where he was very emotionally attached to it, and all of his experiences were very positive and happy. And so that did. That was a factor that ultimately led to our divorce.

Hayley Rawle [00:46:24] I'm so sorry. I wanted to ask, too, if there's any element of. Did you feel more safe because you were with a Mormon guy? Did you feel like that was less likely to happen to you? Was there any trust dynamic that was impacted by these men? Men or boys that you were with? Did them being Mormon make you feel safer and then obviously you weren't, or did that play into it at all?

Family Secrets and Church Culture at Home

Courtney Kimpel [00:46:49] Not necessarily because everyone I was around was Mormon. I don't. I think at that point, I don't know anyone who wasn't Mormon except maybe, like. Or didn't identify as Mormon at least except maybe, like, 10 people who I didn't really talk to. So it was them being Mormon had nothing to do with what I viewed there how good they were or weren't of a, of a person.

Hayley Rawle [00:47:14] Yeah. Yeah, interesting. I can totally see that. I wanted to quickly ask, and I mean share as much of this as you want. Obviously I can imagine it's incredibly sensitive, but you did mention abuse growing up. If you want to say anything more about that or just leave it at that, because I do. I mean if even that's as much as we touch on it, it does seem like that was an important piece of that puzzle too.

Courtney Kimpel [00:47:38] I, without. It's, it gets into like some kind of personal family stuff where we, we, we adopted a kid who has some, who had some issues. And it does, it does. You know, I, I will go into a little bit because it does speak to why like kind of the next part of this. Because he was, he was adopted and we didn't plan on having somebody in, in our family that had some emotional or behavioral issues that wasn't, that wasn't part of it when they, when we signed up for hey, we want the, we want to adopt somebody.

Hayley Rawle [00:48:27] Yeah.

Courtney Kimpel [00:48:27] And by the time that we realized they did, then it's too late at that point to you can't, you can't give him back. And so that led to a lot of out violent outbursts and stuff where you, you make him mad and it would, it'd be kind of rough.

Courtney Kimpel [00:48:51] And that's also what led to kind of the separation with my family. Church was supposed to be, I think in my parents eyes what brought us together and the thing that like would make it all better so they'd force us to go and that it didn't work like that. And so to kind of escape what happened, what was happening at home.

Courtney Kimpel [00:49:15] My, my dad would spend all of his time at work up on campus. He took a job as a bishop up on campus or the calling as a bishop up on campus so that he wouldn't be, he wouldn't have to be around, around any of it. And so that wasn't an option to be able to talk to my parents about any of this or like have that conversation. We grew up very emotionally distant and withdrawn, just trying to survive what was happening in the house and to each one of us with that. So we, we couldn't have that talk. So I ended up talking to the bishop about, about what happened.

Hayley Rawle [00:49:52] Yeah, tell us about that.

Courtney Kimpel [00:49:55] It was, it was kind of a thing where it's like you're taught this is, who you're supposed to talk to is the, is, is the bishop. If something's going on, Bishop is there for you and you can go in and talk to him about anything. And where I have one of my issues with the church, particularly looking back after this, is these poor men getting put into bishop positions. They don't get any training. And again, it's going to be a wide spectrum of who it is that you're talking to. These are not therapists or counselors that are being brought into these positions. They have no training or level of anything to handle these real life situations that are happening to us. And a lot of them, including this particular bishop, Very, very black and white in his thinking. Abstinence. That's it.

Hayley Rawle [00:50:50] Very letter of the law.

Courtney Kimpel [00:50:52] Very, very, very much so.

Hayley Rawle [00:50:54] And just to clarify really quickly, we're talking about you going to the bishop after losing your virginity. Correct. Not the. So you spoke to experiencing some of that abuse in your family, but now you're talking about you lost your virginity, you didn't feel like you had a safe place in your home, so now you're going to your bishop to talk about that. Right?

Courtney Kimpel [00:51:12] Correct, Correct, correct. And it wasn't so much I scheduled an interview with him to go talk about this. It more just lined up with that six month interview that they do and it just barely happened like a couple days ago. And he's like, well, is there anything that you need to or like want to talk about? I was like, you know, actually this did just happen. And he kind of listened. And then at the end of it, keep in mind previously when I'd said my clothing was basketball shorts and a tank top, at the end of it, he said if you dress like you're a pornographic magazine, like you're walking a pornographic magazine, then you're going to make these things happen to.

Hayley Rawle [00:52:05] You're going to get raped essentially is.

Courtney Kimpel [00:52:09] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:09] As a minor by.

Hayley Rawle [00:52:11] Yeah. 24 year old adult.

Courtney Kimpel [00:52:13] Yes.

Hayley Rawle [00:52:14] For wearing a spaghetti strap tank top.

Courtney Kimpel [00:52:16] Yes. Wow. Yes. And that to be clear, is not to say that if I was wearing my short shorts and like a crop top or anything, that's not inviting it anymore. To be very clear, the clothing choices that women make does not in any way invite that in. But for him to go so extreme to like my knees are still covered, I've got my shoulders show showing. It's my faul. This happened is that's that stuck with me.

Hayley Rawle [00:52:45] Wow. Yeah. I mean especially when you're saying that you are going to the bishop. Maybe. Yeah. There's all sorts of reasons women can tell their bishop about these experiences. Oftentimes we feel coerced too because we feel like we have to in order to repent, et cetera, but also just if these are the people in the community hearing these stories and there's no level of, was there consent? Do you feel safe? Do you feel okay? None of that. Which should obviously be the first questions anyway, but then it's even so much more extreme where there was victim blaming, clear as day. How did that feel for you?

Courtney Kimpel [00:53:23] Well, actually, right now, just this very second, it just occurred to me that he never asked if I was okay. And that kind of sucks. Yeah, you saying that just makes sense. Suddenly clicked in my mind that that wasn't even the route that that conversation went to. It was straight to like, well, don't dress like, don't dress like that. And so then because of that, I went back and saw that guy again, and he did it again. And you, you know, we. We make those messed up decisions, but I want to take some kind of power back. I can, I can think about it logically now. Then I'm like, why am I, why am I even coming back?

Hayley Rawle [00:53:59] This.

Courtney Kimpel [00:54:00] This sucks. And I, I mean, I went, like, kind of crazy a little bit and. But looking back now, I'm like, I just want, I want to be the one in control. I want to be the one like, you know, telling him no or, or being like, yeah, this is fine, you didn't hurt me anyways.

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:15] Because the bishop just told you it was your fault. Right. And. And just to summarize, this is a Mormon bishop hearing about a potential story of assault of a minority. And all he has to say is like, where you, you shouldn't be wearing basketball shorts and a tank top.

Reporting Assault and Institutional Failures

Hayley Rawle [00:54:33] Yeah, it's really insane. And to your point, it has such far reaching implications too, because, I mean, as you said, and I think that makes so much sense that you would react that way. Also, if you feel blamed for something, you're probably just gonna get further steeped in shame, further maybe do things that deep down you didn't really want to do or feel like were, you know, motivated intrinsically. But it's like, well, screw this, you know, no one cares about me. I've only been blamed, so. And also, even despite this abuse and sexual assault, you're still probably getting affection from this older person and some sort of care that you're very clearly not getting from the authority figures who should be offering you that.

Hayley Rawle [00:55:18] So, yeah, I just want to offer that it makes a lot of sense. And you're 17, you know, it shouldn't be. You should have learned more. You should have been better prepared, and it just speaks to so many of these toxic dynamics. I'm, again, so sorry that you had to experience that. Let's keep talking through. You said you went back to that person. Oh, go ahead. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:40] I'm a little shocked that he didn't try to find out who the student was at byu, Idaho, or to try to report him was.

Courtney Kimpel [00:55:47] I don't remember him really asking very many questions.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:50] He was just like, oh, okay, yeah, it was your fault.

Courtney Kimpel [00:55:53] I don't know if he ever learned that the guy was 24 or not. I don't know. I. The. What he said specifically is what stuck out to me. Beyond that, what happened throughout the rest of the conversation, I'm not sure if he ever knew, but that's something that you would. You would kind of find if you essentially, you hear about an assault, something. Yeah, I'd be asking questions. Well, who is this person? Are you safe from them now? Is this. And that would have led into. Well, yeah, he's. He's 24. He goes. He goes to school up on campus.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:30] Did he try to shame you about having lost your virginity or anything like that that you remember? Maybe you don't.

Courtney Kimpel [00:56:36] I don't remember.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:38] I mean, if you don't, do you want to. Do you and Hayley, you can chime in, too. Do you want to talk about this rhetoric about, you know, shaming people or women for being virgins versus not virgins and, like, comparing virtue to virginity or, you know, do you have anything to say about that? Courtney or Hayley?

Courtney Kimpel [00:57:01] Hayley might be the better person on that one, because I was. I know people were talking behind my

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:08] back,

Courtney Kimpel [00:57:10] but I didn't. Not really someone who's either been particularly concerned about. About what they're saying, fortunately, but there was. There was a level of trying to shame me for these things or for. For what I was doing, and I just didn't let it really affect me. I was just gonna do. Do what I was gonna do and had a lot other issues to be concerned about in. In my mind, focusing on stuff at home and focusing on these people that I had in my life that weren't treating me well as opposed to, like, caring who was saying what specifically.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:49] Yeah.

Courtney Kimpel [00:57:50] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [00:57:50] It's really fascinating, even that question, because I feel like I very much bought into Mormonism, so I very much internalize shame around sexual experiences. But I think this is an interesting case, too, where even if you're not necessarily feeling the shame of Mormon shame, still just speaking to. On just a very base level, religious doctrine aside you were just kept unsafe and kept uneducated. And, you know, I think that extra religious level of shame can play in two. In various situations, but there's just so many levels of that. But speaking to my personal experience, I think there was a lot of shame around that. I did not lose my virginity before I got married, but definitely had a lot of close.

Hayley Rawle [00:58:35] Definitely had a lot of close calls and so experienced similar things of talking to bishops. I just wanted to call back really quickly to when we're talking about being asked if you're okay. I also had many experiences where I went to multiple different bishops throughout various stages of my life, where I sat down with them and told them, yeah, I have something to confess. Well, what happened? And I would have to say, this is where I was touched, or this is where I touched or those sorts of details, but never once, never once was I asked, are you okay? Was it consensual? Are you safe?

Hayley Rawle [00:59:09] Not once. It was never even. It was just never part of the conversation whatsoever. And similar to what you were saying, Courtney, I wasn't asked, who is this person? How old are they? What kind of dynamic are you in with them? And so I just want to also say that I had a very similar experience also across various ages. And although I didn't have that age gap dynamic, I think it's just not part of what bishops are asking is, are you okay? Or was any of this consensual?

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:41] And that's kind of mind blowing because as a gay man, I think most of the stories I've heard of gay people confessing these types of things, like having sexual relationships, obviously outside of marriage, or as teenagers, for example, or in. In a university. Most of the stories I've heard is the bishop always asks, who's the other guy?

Hayley Rawle [01:00:07] Really?

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:07] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:00:08] Wait, you're saying when it's a gay man saying they had a sexual relationship with another gay man.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:13] Yeah, Interestingly, like, who's the other guy? And I. I wonder now if it's not so much because to find out, you know, who's having sex, it's like, who's the other gay person that we watch, watch out for?

Hayley Rawle [01:00:27] Yeah. And that's interesting because it sounds like the people being protected are cisgendered heterosexual men.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:34] Yeah. And it goes all the way back. I've heard a story of, of Spencer Kimball hearing about gay men in, in the Tabernacle Choir and like, confessing to him as a prophet or as an apostle about. And then Spencer Kimball wanting to know, who's the other. Who's the other person. So even on high levels of authority in the church, I've heard a similar thing with gay people. So it's just kind of really interesting.

Hayley Rawle [01:01:04] It's really interesting. And I'm sure there are situations of. I have heard of some situations where one party goes to confess and then the bishop does ask who the other person is in order to find their bishop and then punish them. So I'm sure it happens sometimes, but, yeah, maybe less so than you would think. And again, not even from, oh, they should be punished too, but just from a sheer standpoint of safety and understanding what those dynamics are.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:31] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:01:33] Okay, let's talk about kind of what happens next. You said that you continued to go back to this person and then maybe, you know, beyond that, you said you had multiple more stories, kind of of a similar nature to share what comes to mind for you.

Courtney Kimpel [01:01:47] Yeah. So after. After that, it was just a couple more times that I saw him. And then like I said, I was. I mean, I was going a little crazy just trying to get some kind of, like, control and form back. And Bnbyu, Idaho, he had vodka. So I took his bottle of vodka and smashed it on the ground and then never saw him again.

Hayley Rawle [01:02:11] Nice.

Courtney Kimpel [01:02:12] So that ended. And then throughout the rest of, like my senior year, I don't really have too many, really, memories in general. I think I did end up blocking out kind of a lot of what was happening at that time. Just kind of surviving through life and. And the way that these kind of men were and feeling kind of like, okay, well, like I said, now that that happened, I don't have anything left to like, protect or anything. But still, it was still important to me not to be out and sleep around. I wanted to jump back to that for just a second because on the subject of. Of education, there is no condom involved and I'm extremely lucky I didn't end up with STDs or pregnant.

Hayley Rawle [01:03:04] Wow. At all. Yeah.

Courtney Kimpel [01:03:07] And it like on. On his end and I don't really know what was happening at all or anything. So. No. No education there even. I got that things could have ended up extremely bad beyond just like my mental state. It could have been terrible for that.

Hayley Rawle [01:03:25] Yeah. I appreciate you calling that out. That didn't even come to mind for me. But that's huge. Yeah, that's so huge. And yeah. Lack of education or maybe that. I mean, I'm sure that that was not the main consideration of this person as they don't sound very considerate or respectful, but I mean, yeah, that Alone is just like, we should at least know. And you probably. I mean you didn't even understand necessarily what was happening.

Courtney Kimpel [01:03:48] But yeah, I appreciate the intentionality of like he knew he shouldn't because if he had or if he had known, he would have stopped. And back. Okay, I'm good. Like, let me grab a condom here real quick. So it was just him pushing those boundaries. Push those boundaries. Because if he stopped, I would have said no and been able to get a use as excuse or a way

Hayley Rawle [01:04:08] to remove yourself away. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:11] Did he ever go through your mind like, oh my gosh, I could be. I could get pregnant. Oh my gosh, I could get an sti.

Courtney Kimpel [01:04:19] At the time, there was like a lot going on afterwards. Absolutely freaking lutely. Okay, like then, then you're spend next while just stressing about.

Hayley Rawle [01:04:31] I did not even think about that because then you have to deal with the fear of am I going to start my period? And this is such an aside and it's a crazy thing, but I was afraid I was going to get pregnant. And I literally had not had penetrative sex. That's. Yes, it wasn't even that I was. And I was a smart person, I think. But it wasn't even that I didn't know what sex was. It's just that the shame was so deep for me that I remember like when I was doing sexual things that were not sex, I worried about getting pregnant. So I can't even imagine connected the two.

Courtney Kimpel [01:05:05] I remember telling my friend that like one time when he was kind of before it like really happened and he was, we're kind of like messing around or whatever. And I remember telling my friend, I was like, yeah, we didn't have sex, but I went and took Peter a pregnancy test anyways.

Hayley Rawle [01:05:21] Yeah, I know. I grew up on a farm.

Courtney Kimpel [01:05:23] I know how it works.

Hayley Rawle [01:05:24] It's real because you. And you hear things. You hear things about like if a man ejaculates in a hot tub or like there's so much misinformation that even very smart women. It. It just speaks again to all of the shame. And just there's so much fear around it obviously too that. And there's so much biological inequity of like, well, I could get pregnant. So you feel like you're in charge of making sure that doesn't happen, especially if the men around you don't seem to care about that. But yeah, I'm. I mean, I'm not glad I'm not alone in that, but I feel less crazy that you experienced that too.

Courtney Kimpel [01:06:01] I completely forgot. I never thought about that again until just now. You brought that up. Holy cow.

Hayley Rawle [01:06:07] Yeah, it's a crazy thing for sure. But then, yeah, when you are actually sexually assaulted and then you have to worry about, oh, might this change my life in such a significant way forever. That's super heavy. Not to mention you're still just trying to get through school and I don't know if you had a job at the time. Like there's so much a 17 year old should be worrying about besides that

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:26] and just the fact that you have. Don't you have to get. I mean, I'm not a woman, so I'm sorry that I know this, but I've, I'm. I'm pretty sure I'm right. In the US you have to get a prescription for, for any kind of birth control.

Hayley Rawle [01:06:42] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:43] That is just insane to me.

Hayley Rawle [01:06:44] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:45] Cuz like if you're a teenager you're not going to go tell your parents like, hey, I, I just had sex, I need the mor. Morning next day pill.

Hayley Rawle [01:06:54] Yeah. Like that's just the plan B pill you don't need a prescription for. But it's wildly expensive. You probably wouldn't be able to afford it.

Courtney Kimpel [01:07:03] It was like $48.

Hayley Rawle [01:07:04] Yeah, you wouldn't be able to. Plus it's like locked in a thing. So you have to like walk up to somebody and say like, can I get this thing? So yeah, but the plan B isn't prescription, but birth control just.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:15] And I'm sure a teenager wouldn't know.

Hayley Rawle [01:07:17] Right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:17] Like what, what is that? Especially if you're not taught.

Hayley Rawle [01:07:19] No, you'd have no idea. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Thank you Courtney for pointing that out. I think that's a really. I appreciate you pointing that out. So as we were saying after that happened, you said there were a few other occasions where you experienced something similar. What were those? When did those happen and how does it relate?

College Years, BYU-Idaho, and Difficult Relationships

Courtney Kimpel [01:07:42] Yeah, so after that I, once I graduated high school, I moved down to Utah, Orem and ended up in a pretty rough neighborhood with a lot of, of rough experiences and where I'd been coming from, from my like first time and first experience, it was just kind of like, well, I guess like you're, you guys are gonna do what you're gonna do.

Courtney Kimpel [01:08:16] And I try to be very careful about the situations that I'd began myself put into. But there are a couple times when it just would be same sort of thing. No, you just, you just say no and they don't listen. One of them was Not Mormon. He was just whatever. But another one was again, same sort of thing. And they just. They just push until you. You stop saying no.

Courtney Kimpel [01:08:47] And so this is. And this is really solely within the Utah and Idaho space that I've experienced. This. I've lived in Wisconsin. I lived in Texas and Oklahoma. And that thinking about it right now, that was never an issue I ran into there. You tell them. You tell them no. And like, okay, that's. That's totally fine. We don't have to be. We don't have to do that. Just whatever pace you're comfortable with. Not something I experienced in my early years, 18, 19, at all.

Hayley Rawle [01:09:20] Interesting. The location differences, too. Like, it's difficult to not see deep connections with the predominant religion and men being willing to understand the word no in a sexual scenario.

Courtney Kimpel [01:09:34] Yeah. And when I was in Wisconsin, I was a bartender there, so it was in essentially kind of a higher risk capacity again, where, if you're thinking about areas or careers or spots where things like that are most likely to happen, being a bartender is kind of where you would hire. On the list of. Of a risk, nothing. The men there were incredible. They looked out for me. They made sure I was okay. They're. They made sure I was always very, very comfortable and never, ever pushed boundaries.

Hayley Rawle [01:10:07] Wow. Something you also had written in your outline is that you felt like because you had lost your virginity and people knew you had lost your virginity, you were treated differently as a woman, especially in those Idaho, Utah spaces. Can you talk about that? Yes.

Courtney Kimpel [01:10:25] So that's getting into college. So I came back in. I came back to Idaho in 2019 to do a semester at BYU. Idaho. It was not at all my first choice, but I was kind of starting life over and relocating again. And so I was like, I'll come here. I was very fortunate to get free schooling there for a semester. So I was like, I owe it to myself to try this at least. So I ended up there. And so at this point, I was 22, I think, coming into there. So older.

Hayley Rawle [01:11:09] Old.

Courtney Kimpel [01:11:09] Old enough to understand everything that happened to me previously and what these guys were like. And so coming back to it, I was very respectful of the. Of the religion, but I was very. I was very clear, hey, this is not. This is not my beliefs. And so those conversations got very interesting once that would come up. There are lots of missionary experiences of these guys who just got off their mission, and I let me convert this

Hayley Rawle [01:11:38] girl,

Courtney Kimpel [01:11:40] which just roll your eyes.

Hayley Rawle [01:11:43] Yeah. Yep.

Courtney Kimpel [01:11:46] And the. The ones, though, that really caught me off guard were pro it was seven or eight men that, to varying levels and degrees that when, when that conversation came up and they're like, well, so have you, like, have you, are you virgin? Have you had sex or whatever? I'm like, yeah, it's, you know, at this point I'd become comfortable and had a very, very good relationship with somebody. And so it was something I was comfortable as a conversation with, if they were asking.

Courtney Kimpel [01:12:18] And the almost ownership they seem to like, take on, on that moment over me was unbelievable. It was like now that they knew that I wasn't, I hate to say it, that I wasn't gonna say no. I would have said no. But in their minds I'm not going to say no because I've already had sex.

Courtney Kimpel [01:12:45] Then they could like if, if it weren't for them protecting their righteousness and I'm not gonna have sex because I'm waiting till marriage. But if I would. You would?

Hayley Rawle [01:12:58] Yeah. Like, if I wanted to, yes.

Courtney Kimpel [01:13:00] Then, then you would?

Hayley Rawle [01:13:01] Yeah.

Courtney Kimpel [01:13:02] And the entire, the whole aspect of like, no, you still got, you still gotta like each other.

Hayley Rawle [01:13:06] You still gotta like, you still have to want.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:10] Yeah.

Courtney Kimpel [01:13:10] Yes, yes. It's not just like, okay, I've had sex, now I'll have sex with anyone. Yeah, you kidding me? But there was two varying levels and degrees. One, one guy straight up told me like, if, if only I could, then we could. And this wasn't somebody I had kissed. This wasn't somebody I had. This was somebody I had zero interest in. It was just somebody that we would, I'd, I'd go dancing up there and swing dancing. And so somebody I met and he was like, if only I could. I'm like, no. Yeah, this guy was 26 or 27. Because I like just some 18 year old kid here who's like never been taught anything huge. Just like.

Hayley Rawle [01:14:03] That is such an interesting experience. It says so much because I'm thinking even about myself. When I was going to byu, it would have been really wild to me if I knew someone was sexually active. That, that would have just been surprising to me and really interesting in a way, I think just because most people I knew were not sexually active. But then you're thinking about how much of a.

Hayley Rawle [01:14:31] It's almost like you were exoticized in this really icky way of like you were a grown woman making your own decisions about being sexually active and making decisions about who you were sexually active with and when. But for someone so in the bubble of virginity culture, it's just like, oh, you have sex great, then you're gonna have sex with anybody who comes your way. It's so absurd. But you can see how these men. Not that it's justifiable, but you can see how you were probably just so intriguing to them Just because you were a woman who was sexually active and not ashamed of that.

Courtney Kimpel [01:15:09] I'd be available. And at that time, I was really trying to make a point. I mean, I'd signed the honor code or whatever for going up there, and I was really trying to make a point of. Of respecting that. Like, it was. I. I didn't necessarily agree with any of it. I love my coffee. Love it. But I signed something, and so that kind of, like, integrity level of, okay, I won't. I quit drinking my coffee and really tried to. I really. I was not perfect at it by any means. Who is? But.

Hayley Rawle [01:15:43] Yeah, good point. No, but that's an important thing to mention. It sounds like you were. Even though you didn't believe in it, you were like, okay, this is what I signed to go to this school. I'll do my best to keep these rules that I signed for.

Courtney Kimpel [01:15:55] So it's not like he had heard, oh, she's sleeping around with so and so. And here it is. It was just as at some point in my past, I was. I was not a virgin anymore. So, yeah, being open for business.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:07] And I wonder how much of that has to do with, again, like, this Mormon teaching of the chewed gum. Like, oh, women who lose their virginity, they're like, chewed gum. You can't go back once you lose it. Even if you repent, no one's gonna want to marry you in the temple. And so it's already ruined. It's gone. And basically it goes to that idea of, like, well, she already lost it, so she's already chewed gum, so who. Doesn't matter. Who cares, you know?

Courtney Kimpel [01:16:37] Oh, absolutely.

Hayley Rawle [01:16:39] Totally. I mean, I've been thinking about this around modesty and how men, oftentimes, who really adhere to modesty culture, purity culture, they actually want sex, and they want, quote, immodesty, but they don't. They want it when they choose it. And they want to have wholesome women who they can marry and who that can be their daughters or whatever, but then they also want to be able to have sex with someone and want to have women be immodest in certain scenarios. And I think that's to what you're speaking about, Gerardo, where it's like, they probably saw it in some ways as an opportunity of, oh, I'm probably not gonna marry this person.

Hayley Rawle [01:17:20] Because now I know that they've had sex before marriage, but, oh, if I do wanna have sex, I could have sex with this person. And it's so degrading. It's so dehumanizing. It's really, really awful. And it just shows how those mindsets and belief frameworks really dehumanize women.

Courtney Kimpel [01:17:39] Well, absolutely. It takes away your value because you're being told you're not good enough to be with, you're not good enough to marry, you're not good enough to, like, have anything. Long term, I'm not bringing you home to my family. But hey, baby, yeah, Come over tonight no one else can see.

Hayley Rawle [01:17:55] Yep. It's awful. It's really awful. I'm sorry you had to experience that. Especially when you're just trying to socialize and. Sounds like a lot of these men

Courtney Kimpel [01:18:03] you were like, not anyone I was interested in dating.

Hayley Rawle [01:18:06] Yes.

Courtney Kimpel [01:18:06] These were purely just people that I met. They'd kind of, like, flirt with me, but not anybody I was at all interested in being with. Ever. They were not my type. They weren't. Their conversation was different. Having I just been a bartender and then coming over into byu, Idaho and church conversations just don't do it for me.

Hayley Rawle [01:18:30] You didn't like being converted by returned missionaries?

Courtney Kimpel [01:18:34] Yes. And there was never any. Any misleading on my part. I tried especially, and especially being a bartender, I'd really learned to be very clear about my intentions. I can. I'm. I'm considered a fairly bubbly personality by most people, which can often be mis. Mis portrayed as. As being flirty. So I can come across as flirty. And so I've learned to be very, very clear about. This is. This is. I'm not. This isn't going anywhere. This. This is where I feel about things. So there was never any miss intention on my point of leading any of them on to where they thought maybe our relationship was different than what it is. It was just very clear. This is. This is not it.

Hayley Rawle [01:19:19] Yeah. Yeah, totally. I'm curious if there's anything else you want to share from that time period. And you mentioned that you were married and then divorced. I know that a lot of, you know, things. You mentioned that some of this came up in marriage. And I'm curious leading up to marriage, if you're comfortable speaking to any of that, where that came into the picture and how some of these dynamics played out in your marriage.

Pressure to Marry and the Aftermath of Divorce

Courtney Kimpel [01:19:43] Yeah, absolutely. He is. Like I said, he and I are still best friends. We just realized we weren't right to be together, like, long Term marriage wise, our goals were different, and so it's been very, very peaceful. We've been able to talk about this a lot since separating and stuff.

Courtney Kimpel [01:20:05] So in. When we met in college, that same semester, that everything else was going on with the other guys and what they were doing and stuff. So he was kind of my confidant where I could kind of tell that. Tell him about these things. And he was very, very good. And he at that point was still figuring out, like, the church side of things. And he'd wear garments and I would. When we'd be like, making out or something, I reached a point where I was like, look, you can't. We're. We're starting to get, like, more serious here. I don't have a problem with you wearing garments if that's what you want, but I do know what those represent, and I do know how important those are within the culture, and I don't want to disrespect that culture.

Courtney Kimpel [01:20:56] I'm not going to be sitting here like this with you if you're wearing garments. And so he started reaching a point where, okay, now he's making this decision. He took. He took them off. He stopped wearing them.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:09] And so he had gone on a mission, right?

Courtney Kimpel [01:21:11] He had gone on a mission. Okay, correct. And in. Since, like, he. He went because he felt obligated to go. Like, a lot of. A lot of men do.

Hayley Rawle [01:21:20] Where did he grow up? Sorry, In Burley. Okay, so also in Idaho.

Courtney Kimpel [01:21:24] Yeah, also in Idaho. And so when he. When he came back and kind of and started coming up to school and got away from the family influence, he started realizing, this is not. I don't like, any of. This is not what I want to do. I don't, like, feel good about going to church or doing any of this. And so when he met me, I was like, you can be whoever you want to be. I don't. I'm not going to judge you anyway for one thing or another, but I'm also not going to be sitting here with you on the fence and disrespecting something that is very important to people with the.

Courtney Kimpel [01:22:03] With the garments and stuff. And so from then, he just started feeling more comfortable and be like, this is okay. This is not. I can be me. I cannot go to church. And that's okay, to not go to church.

Courtney Kimpel [01:22:19] And so we started, like, actually really seeing each other and ended up moving in together. And then we got married. We were engaged, but then we got married because I wanted to start a coffee shop, like, as a business. Plan. And this was in 2021.

Courtney Kimpel [01:22:47] And we went to my parents and was like, hey, I really want to start this. I need to save up some money for it. Would you be okay if we moved in for a little while to help or to start saving up some money for this. For. For this business plan? And my parents are like, sure, but you have to be married. We're not. Not like, we're not having two people living together. Yeah. Living together that aren't married. So then within about six days, we just got married in. In the. In the backyard. And that's kind of. It's kind of how the whole wedding story went.

Courtney Kimpel [01:23:29] Again, because of the church influence of. You can't. Like, you can't live together now. My parents were never rude to me about us moving in together, but they were a little standoffish about it. His. His dad lost his mind. Who. Here's one. So his dad was a bishop, and when he called him to. When he called him, I was like, hey, Court and I were gonna. We're gonna move in together. We'd love for you to come see the place and come have dinner.

Hayley Rawle [01:24:00] This was before marriage that you were moving.

Courtney Kimpel [01:24:02] This was before marriage. Yep. And I'd met them at this point, they did not like me because I drank coffee and you wanted to start

Hayley Rawle [01:24:09] a coffee shop, even. Yeah. Yes.

Courtney Kimpel [01:24:12] Yes. I never particularly saw eye to eye with my in laws.

Hayley Rawle [01:24:15] They.

Courtney Kimpel [01:24:15] They did pretty good about being relatively nice to my face. But they. His dad just, like, went off. He's like, please don't do it. I will come up right now. I will marry you guys right this very second. I will get you a ring. And then he's like, well, what does her dad think? And his dad's like, well, I mean, they don't. Or Zan was like, we don't love it, but they're. They're. They respect our decision and are happy for us. And he's. He's like, well, you're. And. And her dad calls himself a patriarch.

Hayley Rawle [01:24:56] Whoa.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:58] Oh, wow. Yeah.

Courtney Kimpel [01:25:01] So that was. That was that experience with that. And then another one later on was.

Hayley Rawle [01:25:09] Or.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:09] But your dad is not a patriarch.

Courtney Kimpel [01:25:11] Like, he was a bishop.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:12] Okay.

Hayley Rawle [01:25:13] I'm just saying, like, as a patriarch of a Mormon home, as any man should be. Yeah. I also want to say on that story before you get into your next one, it just goes to show, too, how marriage, which is supposed to be the end all, be all, most important thing in the world in Mormonism, but then two people want to move in together, and it's like, let's get them married tomorrow. I'll come down and do it myself. So do you really care about marriage then? And obviously, the end all be all marriage in Mormonism is a temple marriage and a temple ceiling. But it's just such a hypocrisy to me that when we're saying marriage is so important, there's not that much emphasis on is this the right person, is this the right time?

Hayley Rawle [01:25:56] And simply jumping in as a measure of. I would so much rather they be married if they're going to live together. Just based on appearances, based on these odd lines in the sand of you can't live together unless you're married. But that actually disregards the importance of marriage. And then it sounds like you were pressured into getting married when maybe you wouldn't have been otherwise simply because there's a rule that you can't live together unless you're married. And I just think it shows a really blatant hypocrisy in the, you know, focus on marriage in Mormon doctrine.

Courtney Kimpel [01:26:35] Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:26:38] We.

Courtney Kimpel [01:26:38] We would not have gotten married at that point. There's. There's a possibility that we may not have ever gotten married if it had happened other ways. Not because I didn't love him, but just life and like, trying to plan out a wedding and stuff. We didn't have any sort of date, date set. I was wanting like a destination wedding. Go to like, Mexico outside of where he served his mission and have it really cool and beautiful. And so there's. There's a chance with how things now ultimately ended up right. We may never have actually gotten married otherwise. And that would have been a heck of a lot.

Hayley Rawle [01:27:13] Divorce papers are, I was gonna say,

Courtney Kimpel [01:27:15] but a heck of a lot simpler if it had worked out that way.

Hayley Rawle [01:27:19] Way.

Courtney Kimpel [01:27:19] Not that I by any means have any regrets. Like I said, he's an incredible. He's an incredible person. We just weren't. Weren't right for that. But being. I. I do wonder how much of being pushed into just the wedding right then because of that, how much of that ultimately had effect on if we, if we would not still be together now.

Hayley Rawle [01:27:42] Totally.

Courtney Kimpel [01:27:43] Because then I felt I. I struggle with feeling trapped in situations. Kind of stuck. A lack of freedom from. From everything that's. Everything that's happened and led up. So kind of being in that, okay, this is. We're married.

Hayley Rawle [01:27:58] We're.

Courtney Kimpel [01:28:00] This is forever. That's not a peace thing for me. That's a very stressful thing. Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:28:06] And you didn't have the time to make the decision on your terms.

Courtney Kimpel [01:28:09] Yeah. So it was just like, okay, that we're gonna, like, we're doing this now. I got married in, like, six days. And.

Hayley Rawle [01:28:15] Yeah. Well, I mean, to tie it back into. A lot of that just has to do with sex. It's like heaven. Yeah. Two consenting adults have sex with each other. We would rather force them or, quote, coerce them or strongly encourage them to get married as opposed to them having sex outside of marriage. But then the implications of getting married and having to get divorced are obviously so much more difficult to deal with, as opposed to just two consenting grown adults choosing to have sex with each other.

Courtney Kimpel [01:28:45] Yeah. And that's entirely what it was. That. That was. It just can't have sex outside of marriage.

Hayley Rawle [01:28:50] We'll.

Courtney Kimpel [01:28:51] We'll allow you while you're doing whatever, but if you're under our roof, you're not.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:55] And it comes to this idea that in Mormonism, having sex outside of marriage is second to sin, to murder. So, like, you're basically, you know, doing the next thing, you know, worse than murder. And, like, so then we gotta get you married, so then you're fine and you're clean, and then you can get to heaven with us. And even if we get divorced after, I mean, that's fine. Doesn't matter. But you. You. You complied with the rules, so then it's not as bad.

Hayley Rawle [01:29:28] I'm thinking of. I don't know if this is an urban legend and maybe someone in this room knows, but I've heard of people in college who will go to Vegas, get married, have sex, and then annul their marriage the next morning. And it's that exact principle. It's like, it just shows how arbitrary these rules are, because that technically would be allowed in Mormon theology. While they got married civilly, and then they had sex while married, and then they annulled the marriage. So it's kind of. I mean, it's not as extreme as that, but it's kind of a similar idea of, well, we better just get them married if they're having sex, and then, yeah, if they get divorced later on, so be it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:07] It's crazy to me how immormonism sex is such a big issue and topic. And it comes. It comes on, like, every single big issue that the church cares or the leadership cares about. Right now we're doing a series on the black.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:22] Black people and the priesthood and how black people were not allowed to have the priesthood and how it all started. Basically, it is because Brigham Young was was upset that black men was, were having sex with white women. And he didn't want that. And he didn't want black men to have white wives. So that's why he instituted the priesthood ban. And then for generations, the brethren and the apostles were concerned of interracial marriage. And that was one of the reasons why they didn't want to lift the ban. And what drove a lot of the decisions at BYU and other places for segregating black people from, from white Mormons and not recruiting them into BYU was because they were scared of black people having sex with white people.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:08] And it's the same with same sex marriage. It's like the sexual aspect of it and that's what they care about. Like they don't want same sex marriage because leads to same sex, same sex intercourse. And that's a problem. And so sexuality is such a big issue. I mean, it goes back to polygamy too, right? Like why polygamy was instituted. The scriptures say it was to race up seed, you know, have, have kids, have sex. It's just Mormonism is just big, big on sex.

Hayley Rawle [01:31:41] So big on sex. But they want to be. It's the irony.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:44] Control. Exactly.

Hayley Rawle [01:31:46] Yes, good point. Like that's the irony is I talk about this a lot too, where you don't want it. It's like the Mormon church wants sex to be a non issue in some ways, but they are the ones making it such an issue at every single turn. It's similar with modesty on that, on a different scale. But modesty is ultimately about sex too. So now we're controlling what people can wear. I would postulate that garments are about sex because then we can control what people wear so that men don't have the thoughts, et cetera, et cetera. So so much of it comes back around to sex, even though it's supposed to be about purity. And it just feels ironic that it ends up actually being more about sex than I think most people think about sex. Like Mormonism is thinking about sex. It seems like more than most of us are.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:32] A few other points, you know, that are big on Mormons and work, women working outside of the home, which was like discouraged for a very, very long time, has to do with women having sex with men in the office or like having extramarital relationships. You know, the idea of traditional families, why feminism is wrong. You know, it leads to women wanting to have sex outside of marriage. The Proclamation of the family was written to like, to put into doctrine the ideas around sexuality and, and sex and gender. I don't know, it's just, it's big. Sexuality is big in Mormonism.

Hayley Rawle [01:33:08] It's big. I appreciate, Courtney, your story too, because I think it shows that it's huge in these policy ways, in these history ways, and it also has, has such massive impacts on individual people's lives in various ways. But I think your story is so powerful because at so many turns you were impacted by, you know, what we started talking about the lack of education, the lack of education around consent, the way that bishops are trained to handle these things. It impacted your life in very real, tangible ways. And I think it's always important. That's what one of the, one of the things I love about Mormon stories is it talks about those big overarching societal, you know, mechanisms and systems. But it also shows, oh, people's lives are being affected at many, many turns in many, many ways.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:01] Yeah,

Hayley Rawle [01:34:04] I don't have any follow up questions. Courtney, I'm curious if you have any parting notes. You know, I think we talked through, you mentioned that maybe part of, there was a lot of things that played into your marriage and I think that's really good context too. I'm curious where you find yourself now after experiencing all of that now, having gone through, having gone through a divorce. Would just love to hear how you feel now and where you're at in the unpacking and the healing of all of this.

Courtney Kimpel [01:34:33] Yeah, it's so we, it's been relatively recent, the divorce, I think just since December. And like I said, I've been very lucky that he's awesome. We've been able to kind of talk through things which I think really helps with speeding up the healing process a lot because you're not trying to just process, well, what the heck happened? Where did I go wrong? We were able to actually have those conversations. So that helps a lot.

Courtney Kimpel [01:35:00] I think just a kid for me, kids aren't, are not something that I want to have. And that was another large reason for that split is he started thinking maybe that he did versus otherwise. And so I'm kind of right there asking myself that very question of like, okay, like where to, like where to now? What's going to come of it? And I've been, I've been hanging out and meeting really cool people and, and have some incredible people in my life right now that I'm very, very blessed to have. And that actually there's, there's one person in particular I've really been spending a lot of time with and he does an incredible job of understanding.

Courtney Kimpel [01:35:48] He's The. He is the first person who lets me talk about any of this. I, I really actually haven't talked about any of this at all. Finding somebody who's going to understand and, and listen is, is hard enough in itself and, and not judge particularly still being up in that general area where it's still kind of wrong.

Courtney Kimpel [01:36:11] And so I think sitting here being able to like talk about it made me realize some things. The bishop not asking if it's okay, that, that's actually really bothering me that now that we've kind of brought a light onto that, that they don't ask if you're okay. And I realize how many people haven't asked that in general until started hanging out with, with this guy who's like, hey, it's okay. You can talk about it. You and, and you're okay. You're in like a safe place now. You don't have to just power through life. And unfortunately, I expect I'm going to continue to have more and more experiences like this.

Courtney Kimpel [01:36:52] Just living where I live and in the area and being single again and reaching kind of that dating sphere. I'm sure I'm going to have, have a lot more follow up in people's reactions to me and experiences that we have and talking about getting it out here like this really helps with general awareness for myself and for our people of, hey, this is like, if you say no, you can walk away. Like they, you say no and they keep pushing, get up and leave. That is okay to do.

Courtney Kimpel [01:37:27] That's been a massive thing. That's has was a huge issue in my life previous to my actually getting married and then not being single. Now being back into that dating realm again, that's been incredible. To just be like, no, no.

Hayley Rawle [01:37:48] Yep, I said, I said no.

Courtney Kimpel [01:37:51] And running into men who has respected that, like, okay, that is okay. Holy cow. Whoa. I'm really sad for myself that I'm excited about that.

Hayley Rawle [01:38:02] Yeah, I know the bars in hell, as they say, but I am happy that you're experiencing that.

Courtney Kimpel [01:38:07] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:38:08] Yeah, it's really cool.

Courtney Kimpel [01:38:10] So I think just knowing that no is, is. Is no for both sides and both parties. The damage that that men do when you ignore that and how much that that is, even if, even if they don't say anything about it later, even if they aren't like, well, you did this to me. That's gonna stick. And it's, it's, it's, it's ruined my emotional connection for that. And I don't know if that will ever like recover and at this point, that's my life. I'm. I'm fine with it, but it really would have been nice to have it some other way.

Courtney Kimpel [01:38:43] Yeah, it would have been real good. But just being aware for both, both the men and the women that no is no and you can leave. And as. As bishops or authority figures, if someone comes and talks to you about it, the. The answers aren't, well, what were you wearing? And what were you. Like, what position did you put yourself in?

Courtney Kimpel [01:39:09] And, well, if you hadn't. If you hadn't been there, they. Than, like, just ask if they're okay. Yeah, you know, you can figure out the rest of the rest of it. Ask them, well, what do you want to do about this? You know, like, do you. Do you want to. Do you want to be protected? Do you just want to. Do you want to just talk?

Hayley Rawle [01:39:27] Do.

Courtney Kimpel [01:39:27] Do you want to just listen? Do you want me to give advice? Like, the first time someone comes in to talk to you about an experience that is hard is not the time to figure out a punishment plan for that them. Like, that's the time. Hey, okay, you know, let's set a time again. Thank you so much for talking to me. Let's set a time again next week or something, and we can see how you're feeling. We can talk about. Okay, what's. What's the next steps that we can get to here? Because you. You're going to just push people into horrible cycles of doing things to themselves and stuff otherwise, so.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:01] Yeah.

Hayley Rawle [01:40:01] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:02] And Courtney, you already gave some tips for. For Mormon leaders and generally for people hearing about these hard stories. I just want. I think we should have just a quick discussion on what our recommendations or tips would be for Mormon leaders, and then also just generally for people who have experienced these things before, if you want to just take it away and just give us one or what. And, and Hayley, too, what are some of your recommendations for. For leaders and people who have. Who have experienced this?

Advice for Survivors and Closing Reflections

Courtney Kimpel [01:40:39] Yeah, I mean, I kind of. I kind of said a few things there, so maybe Hayley.

Hayley Rawle [01:40:43] Yeah.

Courtney Kimpel [01:40:43] Will has some things, and that might jog some more things.

Hayley Rawle [01:40:46] Yeah, no, I think you put it really well. I think the whole paradigm should be shifted. And obviously, in my mind, I don't think punishment is ever deserved, even if it is consensual. But if your religious beliefs are such that you think there are steps that need to be taken for repentance, et cetera, et cetera, I think first and foremost, bringing consent into the conversation and even, you know, looking at Bishop's interviews. Perhaps one of the silver linings of that practice is that the person that Courtney felt like she was able to tell was a Mormon bishop. And I think there can be a lot of power, if that, that is a safe place that can be powerful to utilize as a tool to make sure that people are safe and consensual.

Hayley Rawle [01:41:33] And you know, that's one of the powers of the community of Mormonism is that there are people in authority and if we can, if those people can be more concerned about safety and consent first and foremost. And then regardless of how things unfold after that, I think that that's super, super powerful. And I think Courtney spoke to that really well. I think that could have altered a lot, a lot of things. I also think just the shame piece as we spoke to is I, I even think there's ways, again, I don't subscribe to this any longer, the repentance process and things like that, but I think there are ways that that can play out without as much shame as often is in those situations.

Hayley Rawle [01:42:20] And I just think the last thing that people need in those circumstances, particularly teenagers and young adults as they're exploring is additional shame added on to sexual experiences. So as much as we can decrease the shame in our language and approach or in there, I always say are when I talk about Mormons, but in the language and approach, I think the better.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:43] Yeah. And I think it goes beyond sex. Right. It starts with messages about modesty, about what you're wearing. So if those messages and the shame around that could be removed, probably be a positive thing that the church could do.

Courtney Kimpel [01:42:59] And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:43:00] But yeah, just also what I talked about. What would your recommendations be for teenagers who are maybe ex Mormon or might watch this episode who are trying to figure out how to navigate this hard experiences in communities like, like you did, Courtney, what would your recommendations would be for them?

Courtney Kimpel [01:43:28] Finding someone to talk to is incredibly difficult, but if you do, it can be very helpful. Like I said, the people I had to talk to was like a couple of my girlfriends who have very similar stories to what to mine and they're going through the same thing. So I go, we didn't know anything was wrong because there is happening. Well, that's. This is normal.

Courtney Kimpel [01:43:53] There was, there was one bishop who was incredible. He wasn't my bishop and he came into my life too late to like really help with anything. It was right before I. I moved out. But if he had been the bishop that I had been able to go to at that time, things might have been. Things might have Turned out very, very differently in terms of how I, how I felt about myself for a long time and the things that I was like allowing to happen in my life. Yeah, there are people out there, they're very, very difficult to find that. I mean, we see three of them in the room here that do listen and they care and they want to talk.

Courtney Kimpel [01:44:35] So that can be incredibly challenging, but so good if you can. Groups. Social media was like really certain kind of come out at that point for me. Now there's groups everywhere of people that you can talk to. You can, you can message people on Instagram and just Facebook or whatever and just, hey, I'm, I am dealing with this. It's a lot easier to find people now outside of the community than what it was then to just, just be able to talk.

Courtney Kimpel [01:45:11] I'm very extroverted. So people are always my answer. Being around good people, that always really, really helps. And then again, can't stress it enough. It is okay to walk away. You say no, you can get up and you can walk away and that is okay. And if you're in a position where you can't, like where I was stuck in that truck and like, if I got up and like walked away, I'd be out walking in the river. I am so sorry that that's now your extra trapped feeling. You can still get up and walk away if you need to.

Hayley Rawle [01:45:48] I love that mine's kind of vague, probably, or a little more abstract, but I've been thinking, listening to Courtney, I really admire your strong sense of self. Like thinking back to that six year old who was like, this doesn't really make sense. And I think that for me as a Mormon teenager, I did not have a very strong sense of self. And I really admire Courtney because despite having to experience all of this, I sense a super strong sense of self. And I would just say, as best you can, cultivate your sense of self. And I think that also connects with. When you say no, you mean no.

Hayley Rawle [01:46:25] You know, believe yourself. Don't get convinced into things you don't want to do, don't. And I mean, I'm saying this as if I understand the difficulty behind that, as if I am similarly figuring that out at this stage of my life too. But I think one of the best things we can do is just cultivate our own sense of self and intuition. And that can be difficult, especially as a Mormon teen and young adult, because you have so many outside parties telling you what to think and what to do and who you are. But I would just Say trust yourself. Because I think deep down there's a lot that we know that kind of gets overshadowed, particularly growing up in high demand religion that dictates a lot of what we should think and what we should do.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:09] Yeah. Yeah, I like that. That.

Hayley Rawle [01:47:12] Thanks.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:14] And finally, I think a big part of this conversation was the lack and. But an importance of sex education in the system that does not exist, unfortunately, in Idaho. So Courtney and Hayley, do you guys want to just briefly talk about why do you think that's important or something that, you know, the general population should be concerned about?

Courtney Kimpel [01:47:43] Condoms. I mean, holy cow. The number of men you run into that. I don't. It's not even like trying to talk you out of it. They just don't even think that they're important. Like, forget the, the pregnancy aspect of it. Right. Which is terrifying for women. Men don't. Men don't feel that or, or understand that, like, terror of like. Oh my gosh.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:10] Yeah.

Courtney Kimpel [01:48:11] And our bodies mess with us and we'll be late. Just.

Hayley Rawle [01:48:14] Yeah, they always are. Yep.

Courtney Kimpel [01:48:15] Yes. Yes. But like, the sexual health that is not talked about at all.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:23] Your.

Courtney Kimpel [01:48:24] The. The risk of, like, the STDs and how, how life changing that can potentially be and how much they just don't care. Now, I don't know that that's. That that's necessarily like only a Mormon problem or issue, but it's not talked about at all. It's. It's never a conversation. I've. No one has had that conversation with me ever. I learned what I learned off the Internet. Not the place you want to learn about sex, by the way. And so having very upfront conversations about, hey, this is what it is. And because the school was so heavily. The high school was so heavily like, influenced by Mormon culture, that never happened. And so forget anything about the emotional health side of it or the mental health side of it or the consent. Purely just your physical safety. That's. That's not talked about.

Hayley Rawle [01:49:29] Yeah. Amen. I just think more comprehensive on the level of physical safety, on the level of emotional safety. It just feels so silly to me that we're still pretending like abstinence only works. I think the statistics bear out that it doesn't work. The anecdotes bear out that it doesn't work. So it's just. It's not working. And also, I would just point out that if you actually want teenagers to have less sex or to be in, you know, less danger of pregnancy and STDs, abstinence only is also not getting you to that goal. So could be worth trying something else if that really is your goal.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:06] Yeah. Finally just. I just want to summarize some of the points that we've talked about during this episode. But I think if the Mormon Church wants to be a safe place for teenagers for just people in general around these topics, I think it will be important for bishops to start getting training around assault, rape, consent. Right. To start teaching teenagers about consent. That would be probably something significant and I'm sure in their many lessons that they get in Sunday school they're working would there should be a time for. For those types of conversations. Right. And I mean I don't think we're asking for the church to.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:53] To change their rules or their doctrine around sexuality. But, but it would be nice if they could teach be teenagers right. That when that no means no and that they. That people should respect that and respect others decisions instead of focusing so much on like like holy staying holy places and nothing will happen to you if you dress modesty. You know, like well what happens when you're actually in. In that situation. Those are things that are not talked about.

Courtney Kimpel [01:51:22] I, I really like how you said specifically we're not trying to change a church's policy on this. That's not the idea of Wayne until marriage and having like your person. That's really beautiful. It's, it's not. It's not for me personally but that that idea is. Is incredible. It's the, it's the shaming you for not that needs to be reconsidered or if you do the, the approach for it having, having a training for. Hey you know if somebody comes to you with this, here's what you. Here's what you don't say.

Hayley Rawle [01:52:01] Yeah. Yeah. For starters.

Courtney Kimpel [01:52:03] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:04] And I think something we all all can agree that should end is this more the Mormon culture of rushing for marriage because that's the way that you're gonna be able to have sex.

Hayley Rawle [01:52:13] That'd be nice too.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:16] But yeah, I think those are my main points. I don't know if you guys have any other points that you want to mention.

Hayley Rawle [01:52:21] No, that's great. I think. Yeah. I've learned a lot from you Courtney and I really appreciate. It's always really special to as a woman to be able to relate with other women. Even though our stories are very different. There's so much to relate on and I always find it it deeply healing and that kind of healing I think is only possible when people like you are brave enough to talk about it. So I just want to thank you personally for sharing with me and also for sharing publicly.

Courtney Kimpel [01:52:48] Yeah. Thanks for giving me a spot to be able to kind of like talk about it and feel like maybe even if it's just to one person that's like, hey, you know, this, this, this meant something, then that's. That's awesome for me. Then it's. Then I didn't go through all of it just to go through all of it and, and end of where I'm at now, then it has some kind of a meaning. So thank you for giving me kind of a spot to say something.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:12] Yeah. Thank you, Courtney. Do you want to talk about your podcast, Hayley, just so people can follow you?

Hayley Rawle [01:53:18] Yeah, sure. Yeah. So I mentioned this at the beginning. I host a podcast. It's called Girls Camp. You can find me. My handles are not all the same, which I should do soon, but you can find me on Instagram and YouTube. Girls Camp podcast on TikTok, Hayley Rawle, and my podcast, if you just type in Girls Camp on Spotify, Spotify, Apple, podcasts, wherever you find podcasts. And we're telling the Mormon stories. So it's kind of a similar vibe. I do some deep dive interviews like this, and then I also do a lot of episodes where I collect multiple stories around one topic, such as modesty, for example, and then just read through multiple submissions. So join me over at Girls Camp. It's a good time.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:57] I love that. Well, thank you so much, Hayley. Thank you, Courtney. And this was. This was awesome. It was great, great episode. Thanks everybody for joining us. And we'll see you next on the next episode of More Mysteries podcast. Bye.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.