Introduction to the Mental Health Relationship Series

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 200

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories) Podcast is made possible through the financial contributions of its listeners to keep it alive and available to future generations. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org hello and

Natasha Helfer [00:00:16] welcome to another series of Mormon Stories). Only I am not John Dehlin, as you can tell. This is Natasha Parker, and this is the first episode of the mental health relational series that we are going to be hosting here on Mormon Stories). So. So welcome and we hope that this is enjoyable and useful to all of you. I want to kind of go over the goals of this series really quickly again, just so my listeners are aware of exactly what it is that we're trying to accomplish through having this series available.

Natasha Helfer [00:00:49] The goals are threefold. One is to give a voice to individuals and families and couples who who are currently, or maybe in the past undergoing experiences that relate to mental health issues and or relationships. Number two is to reach out to others who are going through similar problems and maybe don't know where to go for help or feel alone in the struggles that they're dealing with. So hopefully that they'll understand that there are many others like them and that as a community we can come together and help each other. And number three is to educate the rest of us who may not be dealing with certain issues, but yet are part of a ward community or a general community or a family community where these problems may be taking place and how best we can then be of service to fellow members.

Natasha Helfer [00:01:50] So with that being said, I'd like to move on to this first interview. I thought long and hard about who my first guest should be, and I landed on the topic of homosexuality, which I know has been discussed often before here on Mormon Stories).

Natasha Helfer [00:02:07] And so I apologize for any who think that maybe this isn't diverse enough, but I will plan on being diverse about all the different issues that we cover. However, it was through seeing various clients and friends struggle with this aspect of their lives that much of my journey as a therapist, and especially as an LDS therapist, has been shaped.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:27] So with that intro, it is my pleasure and honor to introduce my very first client that came to me with homosexuality as the presenting problem, and I'll be calling him tonight as Marcos. We're giving him an anonymous name just to protect confidentiality and anonymity of his family, but. Hello, Marcos. How are you?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:02:46] Good. How are you doing? S. Parker.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:48] Good. It's nice to hear you.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:02:51] It's an honor and a pleasure to be here with you tonight.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:54] Oh, you're very kind. I very much appreciate you being here and being willing to share Your story with us. So I think I'd like to start with maybe how it was that we came to meet. And I'll just be very upfront that we were in the same wardrobe, which, at that time, I had a protocol of not seeing clients from my own ward. And I made an exception to that because of the issues that you were coming with me, you and your wife. And. Why don't you start there as far as what you remember about that?

Married in the Temple While Knowing He Was Gay

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:03:32] Well, what I remember is. Let me start by. Let me start by saying that I was married in the temple, and I was married for around 14 years before I was able to come out to my wife and the church. And after I came up to my wife and the church, I was advised by my bishop to go into therapy. And he mentioned your name. He said, well, as a matter of fact, we have a very good therapist here in the world that is willing to take your case. And that's how I started seeing you.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:28] If I remember correctly, you were seeing a therapist before me, were you not?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:04:34] I saw it before you. And before coming out to my wife, I went to other therapists, to one therapist asking for help. And to be honest with you, I only went one session with him. Even though he was not lds, he lived close to the town where I used to live back then, and he was a therapist that specialized in homosexuality.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:13] Okay.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:05:14] So I went to him the first time, and I explained my situation. And immediately in the first session, what he advised me, and in a kind of a forceful way, was, you cannot waste any time. You need to come out to your family. You need to come out to your kids. The sooner that you come to your. You come out to your kids, the better. The younger they are, the better, and they have to accept you for who you are. And in that time in my life, I was not willing to accept who I was. And I didn't think that that was the route that I wanted to take at that time in my life. So I didn't see him again.

Natasha Helfer [00:06:13] Okay, you have two children?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:06:15] I have two children. Wonderful children, yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:06:19] And at that time, they were approximately, what ages at that time?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:06:24] I think that my children were, I would say, nine years old and six years old.

Natasha Helfer [00:06:31] Okay, so tell me a little bit about what were the precursors to going to this therapist and then to coming to me? What was going on for you to kind of finally reach the decision that, hey, I need to probably reach out or I need to disclose something to my wife or tell me a little bit about that process?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:06:58] Well, let me Start by saying that from very, very little, when I was very, very young, I knew that I was different. I was raised in a. In a Latin environment. I was born in Latin America in one of the countries in Latin America. And my father and my mother were typical Latinos. And I remember that my father.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:07:34] Always told me that he wanted to have an heir to the name. And since I was the only child, there was an older brother of mine that was born before me, that he died when I was six months old, and he was a year and a half old.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:07:53] And when I was born, my mother had a hysterectomy because he had a tumor. So there was the two of us. But six months after I was born, he passed away. So I was raised basically alone. And it was. My father was always, you know, telling me that, you know, he wanted to have, you know, have a continuity in the. In the last name that I needed to have, you know, children, you know, so it was a lot of pressure. And basically, in the Latin community, there is a lot of pressure to be a macho. It's a lot of pressure to be, you know, a man in what they called what a man is, which is not what I believe in, but, you know, if it was okay to be married and have two or three different mistresses, and that was acceptable. And that was, you know, you were the stud and. But to be homosexual was something that was not acceptable back then.

Natasha Helfer [00:09:06] Were your parents LDs?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:09:08] No, my parents were Catholics. Were not strong Catholics. My mother was strong Catholic. My father was the typical male in the Latin community where, you know, we went to church maybe two or three times a year. So we were not. Even though I have to say that in my father's family, one of his sisters was a nun in the Catholic Church, and one of my mother's brothers was a priest in the Catholic Church. And it was also interesting that my uncle, who was the priest, had two children that were born to him while he was a priest, and that was okay.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:00] Even though was he married or. He wasn't married or.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:10:03] No, he wasn't married and he was a priest until the day he died.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:09] Okay.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:10:10] And that was not such a big deal. But to be a homosexual was not acceptable.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:17] Did you. So before we get back to my original question about how the disclosure came around, let's talk a little bit about your growing up and when did you even know what a homosexual was? When you were young or.

Early Awareness of Same-Sex Attraction

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:10:32] No, no, no, no, no, no. I never. I think that the first time I came across with somebody that I thought I remember that I was going to school and I was like, maybe in the sixth grade. And there was a little boy in the maybe second or third grade that was very feminine. And he was teased to death.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:10:56] And, you know, nobody liked him. Nobody played with him. He was ridiculed, but nobody said anything. I thought that he was just different. So I didn't know what it was. I knew that I was different. I knew that, you know, I was not very good at sports.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:11:19] I knew that I was a little bit feminine, but I never. When I was growing up, I never thought of me being. As a. Being a gay young man or anything like that. It was until I was maybe in my early 20s that I realized that, you know, I may be a homosexual.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:52] Okay. Yes. So as far as kind of the teenage years being a time when, you know, there's the first flirtations and the first crushes and kind of that normal developmental stage that we go through as far as falling in love for the first time, did you have any of those types of experiences? And if so, were they with other men or did you kind of shut that part of yourself off or what?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:12:16] Oh, no. I remember that my first crush was on a Russian girl that her name was Kira. And she went to school in the school that I went to. And she was blonde. She was a beautiful girl, blonde hair down to her waist, and she was absolutely gorgeous. And I had a crush on her. The first girl that I was very attracted to was the younger sister of one of my classmates that we studied together. And I would go to her. To her home to study so I could see her sister. But I never said anything. I never told her that I had a crush on her, and I never told her that I thought she was beautiful. Never. Never like that. It was. I never said anything.

Natasha Helfer [00:13:19] Did you date or anything like that in your late teens or when did you start dating?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:13:25] I started dating maybe when I was. I was the youngest in my class. I couldn't excel in anything else, so I excelled in school. I started my senior year in high school when I was 15 years old, and I finished my senior year when I was barely 16. And because I was the youngest and I was a little bit effeminate, you know, the girls didn't want to do anything with me. So after I went away to college, I started dating girls.

Natasha Helfer [00:14:08] And how was that?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:14:11] It was interesting. I remember my first kiss, and my first kiss with a girl was in my father's car when we were waiting for some friends. And she was a friend, a very good Friend of my neighbors, and I was maybe 15 years old, and it felt good, but that was as far as it went. That was it. That was it. But

Natasha Helfer [00:14:48] so at this point, you're 15, 16, even 17, you're not thinking of yourself as, oh, there's something wrong with me in the sense of I'm finding myself having these strong feelings towards other boys my age. Or was it just the more you just felt like you didn't fit into the macho stereotype?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:15:07] Exactly. I didn't fit into the macho stereotype. I was the typical nerd boy, a little bit feminine. I was not good in sports. And I never thought. You know, I remember when I was growing up, I had a crush in a lady that was a famous singer in my country that I thought that she was pretty. So I think that my first inclinations towards.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:15:44] I thought that I had a very interesting attraction towards my friends. And sometimes I confused that with saying, well, I never had a brother, and I always wanted to have a brother. And I saw these very attractive older young man saying, I wish he was my brother. I wish he would hang around with me. I wish he would. You know, that was my mental process when I wanted to hang around with him, because there were some times where I would want to hang around with some friends of mine. And in my mind, I said, well, you know, for some reason, I'm attracted to be with him.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:16:37] I'm attracted to spend time with him. I'm attracted to do things with him. And my thought process was, maybe it's because I don't have a brother. And he, you know, I always look for the older brother for the. I always fantasize about, you know, if I would have had an older brother, he would have protected me, he would have defend. He would have come to my rescue when I was ridiculed, he would have, you know, so that was my thought process at the beginning.

Natasha Helfer [00:17:13] And of course, you knew that you had an older brother who had died, correct? You knew that as a child?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:17:18] Yes, I knew that. Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:17:20] And how much of that do you think was related to just the fantasy of having him live?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:17:28] Oh, that was quite a bit. Absolutely.

Natasha Helfer [00:17:33] Okay, so at what age did you start kind of then thinking to yourself, no, maybe now this is more sexual attraction as well, that it's not just, I'm looking for a friendship or, you know, a mentor or a protector that I. That I am sexually attracted to men.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:17:55] When I started college, and I started college when I was very young, I started college when I was 16 years old. And I had my first sexual experience with a classmate of mine, A male. A male classmate of mine, yes. And let me also say this, and I don't know if I can say this. My father. The way I remember that I was, I don't know if I was 14 years old or 15 years old. And the way that my father decided to give me some sexual education was he paid a young man that lived in my neighborhood, who was around 25 years old, to take me to a whorehouse. And he even told. He even told my friend, get him drunk first so he can last longer.

Natasha Helfer [00:19:09] Wow.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:19:10] So when I. When I. When he. And I didn't know anything, so he took me out.

Natasha Helfer [00:19:16] You didn't know that this was what the agenda was for the evening?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:19:20] None whatsoever. And after he got me drunk, he took me to a place where the prostitutes were. And on top of that, of course, he chose a lady for me, a prostitute for me. And I went in the room with her and I was completely disgusted and I couldn't perform. And she came out and told the guy that took me that it was a waste of time that I didn't perform.

Natasha Helfer [00:19:54] Oh, my goodness.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:19:55] After that he went and told everybody that I knew that he took me to. That place and I couldn't perform. And I was like 14, 15 years old.

Natasha Helfer [00:20:13] How devastating.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:20:14] Oh, yes. I mean, it was very. Because everybody, and of course everybody knew. In my school, in my neighborhood, everybody knew. Everybody knew.

Natasha Helfer [00:20:28] Did your father ever talk to you about this or how did you know that it was your father who kind of set this up?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:20:35] Because the guy told me.

Natasha Helfer [00:20:39] But you never spoke with him about it?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:20:42] Oh, no, my father would never do that. Never do that? No.

Natasha Helfer [00:20:48] Wow. So then your first sexual experience of your choosing was with a male in college age, although you were pretty young, so really kind of late teens.

First Same-Sex Experience as a Teenager

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:21:01] Yeah, I think I was like 17 years old and he was maybe 19 or 20. Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:21:08] Okay. And was that just maybe a one time thing or was that more of a relationship or what were you.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:21:15] It was a one time thing. And I felt disgusted, devastated. I remember that we were, we were supposed to study for finals for a class that we worked, we had together. So he asked me to come and spend the night in his house so we would study, study all night. And when that happened, I think that I left his house and I walked home around 4 in the morning because I was, I was completely devastated because

Natasha Helfer [00:21:52] of what you had done.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:21:54] I felt dirty. I felt, you know, that how could I let this happen?

Natasha Helfer [00:22:03] Did you feel coerced? At all or was it enjoyable during. And then you had these feelings afterwards, like kind of like lover's remorse or did you feel even during the whole act like that you didn't have a choice about it or that you were kind of just going along?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:22:17] No, I did enjoy it. And that was, that was also a guilt trip for me to say, how can you enjoy this? You know?

Natasha Helfer [00:22:28] And so. And you didn't grow up with these LDS expectations. So this was more the Catholic Latino expectations, that somehow you still very much picked up the thought that homosexuality was wrong, that anything homosexual related was shameful, bad, evil, whatever.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:22:48] Oh, yes, absolutely. And for my family, for my father, you know, it was, it was absolutely. You know, I knew my mother knew that I was different. My father knew that I was different from very early age. And they didn't, They didn't do anything. I mean, to their defense, my father and my mother were not people that went to college. I mean, I think that my mother, I don't know if she finished high school, but I'm not quite sure. And I think that my father just went up to fifth or sixth grade and that was it.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:23:38] So I remember one time that I was Maybe I was 14, 15 years old, and I told him that I wanted to go to a psychologist because I wanted to talk to somebody, say, oh, no, what are you going to do with that? They just take the money and they don't do anything about it. You're okay. What's wrong with you? There is nothing wrong with you.

Natasha Helfer [00:24:01] You asked for this when you were 14 or 15 to go see a therapist. Wow, that's really amazing.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:24:07] And my mother always tried to hide the son with a finger. You know, my mother said, no, you're fine. You're very masculine. You're a man. There is nothing wrong with you. You know, you're okay. You know, and the times that I was ridiculed, sometimes my mom would go and scream at my friends that she knew that they would have really killed me. And she would come and scream to them, he is a man like anybody else. Leave him alone.

Natasha Helfer [00:24:41] So this ridiculing that was taking place was directly related to your manhood or to what were you being teased about?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:24:49] About me being feminine and things like that. And, you know, because I think that I was very feminine back then. So, you know, I was ridiculed about that. Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:25:06] So even though nobody talked really about things deeply in your family, you all still were very aware of this issue?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:25:15] Oh, yes, yes. And my father was very aware of this issue. But Nobody talked about it.

Natasha Helfer [00:25:22] So. Like a huge elephant in the room.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:25:24] Yes. And I also remember that my father was not very affectionate with me. My mother was, but not my father. My father, I think when I was around six or seven years old, I was getting ready to go to school and for some reason my father was at home still from work or he was not working that day. And the school bus came to pick me up to go to school and I reached out to give him a kiss and he pushed me down and he put his big hands on my shoulders and pushed me down and he said, son, men do not kiss other men, so don't kiss me anymore.

Natasha Helfer [00:26:13] And you're six or seven years old at this point?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:26:16] Uh huh.

Natasha Helfer [00:26:19] Okay. So moving forward then, tell me a little bit about how you came to find the LDS Church.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:26:32] Well, I always enjoy music and I always enjoy singing. And one of my friends who, who lived in the same town where I lived, had a rock band or a small band that he would play for weddings, anniversaries, and, you know, special events.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:26:55] And the LDS Church rented the house next door to him for, you know, proselyting. And the missionaries lived there and they had the meetings of the church in the house because at the beginning they didn't have a chapel or anything like that.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:27:19] So of course the missionaries started talking to my friend because they were the neighbors. And eventually my friends got baptized in the church. One of the elders who was there for a while when, before he went on his mission, he had a rock band in his hometown.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:27:50] And so he would enjoy going when my friend and his brothers, they were six brothers and all of them were the ones who formed the group. And they will rehearse in my friend's house. So when they were rehearsed, sometimes the elders would come and this specific elder would come and play with the electric guitar and just, you know, stay there and enjoy it. And I would go there and sometimes my friend would ask me to sing a couple of songs for them and then we would practice. And that's how I met him.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:28:27] And then he, you know, the elder tried to teach me about the church. But, you know, my family, even though my mother and my father were not strong Catholics in the sense of going to church every Sunday, they were strong Catholics because one of my mother's brothers was a priest and one of my father, father's sister was a nun.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:28:55] So in that case, it was not a choice for me to be of any other religion. As far as my mother was concerned, she was going to be Catholic. Until the day she died, because that was the religion that she was born in, and for her, there was not any other choice.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:29:16] So when he tried to teach me about the church, there was no way I was going to be able to hear the gospel from him, because I knew that my family would have been devastated. But he gave me a Book of Mormon and he signed it, and I saved it in my house. And then, because I was a very good student, I was able to get a scholarship to come to the States and get my bachelor's degree.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:29:49] And the city or the town that I went to school to after, first I came here to learn the language. I came here to learn English. And then I applied to different colleges and universities, and there was a. One of the acceptance letters that I got was from this small college that told me that they were actually very much looking forward to have foreign students, and they would love to have foreign students from all over the world, and they will be happy to have me. And I looked at their program of the career that I wanted to go into, and I liked it. And I went there.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:30:36] And when I got there, all the Latinos that were going to school there, they were talking about this American guy that spoke Spanish that really liked to hang around Latinos and that I had to meet, because if I ever got into trouble, if I had any questions, if I didn't know what to do in a certain circumstance, he would come to my help and my rescue because he really enjoyed being with Latino people. And they said, he's bilingual, he speaks Spanish.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:31:16] So three or four days after I got there, before I started school, I got a tour of the college with one of my friends, and we went to the student body, student body building where the game room was. And we walked into the room, and he was there.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:31:36] This guy was playing pinball, and he said, oh, there is the American guy that I was telling you about. And he said, hey, there is a new Latino here in the college. And when he turned around, was the missionary that I met at my neighbor's house.

Natasha Helfer [00:31:55] Oh, my goodness.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:31:57] And so when he looked at me, he said, what are you doing here? And I said, what are you doing here? And he goes, well, I live here. And I said, well, I just got. I just came to school here. And immediately he became my best friend. Immediately, his family, his mother and mother, his mother and father took me in their home. Immediately. They, you know, took me in their home like one of their children. And I started taking the discussions of the church. And around two or three months later, I Became a member of the church.

Natasha Helfer [00:32:36] Wow. So this is classic LDS kind of fellowshipping and bringing you into the fold kind of thing.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:32:45] Yes. And I thought about it and I said, what the chances are that I'm going to go to school in the same town of this young man that was my friend in my hometown? The chances are almost one in a thousand. Or one in ten thousand.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:07] Yeah.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:33:09] If it's not more. So I said, there has to be a reason why this is happening. There has to be a reason why. And I believe in the church. So I became a member of the church. Yes.

Converting to the LDS Church

Natasha Helfer [00:33:21] What was it that attracted you to the church? What was it that made sense or that made you want to join?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:33:31] I have a very scientific mind. And for me, the gospel in the LDS Church made sense in regards to. Of. In many things. In regards of the. A good example is the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost in the Catholic Church. It was like the three of them were one and they were the same personage, but different. And it didn't make any sense.

Natasha Helfer [00:34:06] The mystery.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:34:07] Yeah, the mystery in the Mormon Church was I said, it makes sense. They are completely different. And before. I went to go to school in that city, I went to learn English in another town. And one of my projects in learning English was to get a research paper. And I got a research paper.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:34:37] I found a research paper where they proved that there were white people that came to the Americas way before the time that they expect. They thought. So everything came to, you know, when the Book of Mormon came and said, you know, they came from the old continent to the new continent, you know, and they came here. Everything made sense to me.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:35:03] And I said, yes, if God is a God, if our heavenly Father is a judge being, it makes sense that he would not leave the people of the American continent without any guidance for so many years. This makes complete sense to me. So I said, yes, this is true.

Natasha Helfer [00:35:28] Okay, so how old were you when you were baptized?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:35:31] I was 24 or 20. 24.

Natasha Helfer [00:35:37] Were you able to tell your family back home? Probably not. Or

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:35:44] no, for a while. In fact, when my ex wife and I were gonna get married, my family was not very happy about it.

Natasha Helfer [00:35:54] Because they knew she was Mormon or. And because they knew you were getting married in the Mormon Temple.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:36:01] What happened was that, no, they didn't know that I was getting married in the Mormon Temple is because she was not a Catholic.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:09] I see.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:36:10] Yes. And they didn't like that.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:16] So when did you tell them after you were married?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:36:20] Well, I came, I finished college and I Came to my country and got a job and I was active member of the church. And I told them, I said, this is what I believe and things like that. And they were not very happy, but they didn't have a choice.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:38] Yeah.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:36:39] Yes.

Meeting His Wife and Getting Married

Natasha Helfer [00:36:40] So tell me about meeting your wife then and what that process was like and deciding to, to get married from this experience that you had when you were in college where you had your first sexual experience with a man and then getting to the point where you married your wife in the temple. What, what happened in between there?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:37:00] Well, I became, when, when I became a member of the church, you know, I believed in the church. And I said, this is, this makes complete sense to me and this is so easy to understand and why there had to be any mysteries. And for me, I said, you know, if I believe in our heavenly Father or in a superior being, this completely made sense to me. And I met my ex wife around four months after I became a member of the church.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:40] Okay.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:37:40] And we dated for a while and then we broke up and she went on a mission.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:50] And

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:37:53] when she went on a mission, I wrote to her. Well, no, let me take that back. We, I was living here and I had a dream and I had a dream about her and the dream was very vivid, saying that we were going to get married. And I said, that's really strange to me because I haven't talked to her for maybe a year or something like that.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:38:26] And then a friend of mine, maybe a week or two weeks later, a friend of mine came to me with an ad from the paper, from the newspaper saying that they were looking for somebody in sales who was bilingual, who had a knowledge of certain, of color and things like that. And I had all the requirements that they looked for. And I applied for a job and I got the job. And two weeks later I got to come to the United States for training.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:39:04] And when I got the job, I had another dream that, with her that said, I have a week left to finish my mission. When I finish my mission, we will get married in the temple. So before I came to the States, I contacted her mother and I, I.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:39:32] And it was very, very vivid. Both of the dreams were very vivid. And I said, I don't know what I'm having those dreams I cannot understand because, you know, we are not, we're not in a relationship or anything like that. And then I contact her mother and she gave me my ex wife's phone number and we started to talk and we talked for a long time. And when I talked to her, she Already had her papers in, and she had her calling to go on a mission. So she said, I have my calling. I cannot see you. I'm going on a mission. And I said, I'll wait for you.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:40:14] So for the time that she was on her mission, I wrote to her once a week, and she wrote back to me. And then after she got back from her mission, we got married.

Natasha Helfer [00:40:33] Were you in the habit of having a lot of dreams about your life or about. Was this pretty different for you?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:40:40] That was very. No, that was really. And for me, I said, why do I have these dreams? I mean, especially with somebody that. I didn't see her for a while. They came to me. And then when I got this job and I contacted her family, and her family told me that she was going on a mission, and I already had the dream saying that she was returning from her mission. I said, this is amazing.

Natasha Helfer [00:41:10] So these were very spiritual experiences for you?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:41:13] Yes, absolutely. And when I went to the States to get my training, I got my temple recommend, and I went through the temple, and I felt a strong confirmation about that also.

Natasha Helfer [00:41:29] Your experience at the temple was positive then?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:41:31] Yes, oh, absolutely. Yes, very much.

Natasha Helfer [00:41:34] Okay.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:41:35] And one of the things that I'll tell you, that when I had those dreams and. And I. When I became a member of the church, there was not any. The feelings were there, But I made a covenant with our Heavenly Father, and I said, if I become the best LDS member that I can be, could you in return, allow me to be married in the temple with a good woman?

Natasha Helfer [00:42:20] Meaning can you let these feelings of my attraction towards other men go away or.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:42:27] Okay, yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:42:31] So at the time of your conversion, were you classifying yourself as a homosexual?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:42:39] No.

Natasha Helfer [00:42:41] And at the time of your marriage, were you classifying yourself as a homosexual?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:42:46] No.

Natasha Helfer [00:42:48] So what? You were.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:42:49] I knew. I knew that I had those feelings.

Natasha Helfer [00:42:52] Right. So you just felt like these were maybe temptations or for whatever reason, they were just feelings you had that you felt like you could overcome, and especially with this new tool that you had in your life, which was the church.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:43:08] Especially when the church teaches you that there is nothing you cannot do if you submit yourself to prayer and fasting and all those things, and you do the best you can do. There is nothing that you could not do.

Natasha Helfer [00:43:27] And I said, okay, and you'll be blessed.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:43:30] Yes, exactly. And I became the best LDS member that I could ever be.

Natasha Helfer [00:43:39] Yeah. And I will. I mean, I will corroborate that. I mean, you. When I remember you in our ward, you were very active, held Many callings, high callings, state callings. You?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:43:58] I was a member of the bishopric for a while, yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:01] And you were, you know, active in our choir. Of course, you said you loved music. And not only that, but you were. I think anybody in our ward would agree with me when I say that you were somebody anybody could call on. You were always willing to serve, always willing to be of help. You and your wife, you know, your ex wife and you just. You both brought a very rich and enjoyable and loving presence to our ward.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:44:39] Well, thank you.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:41] No, you did.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:44:42] I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it very much, yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:48] So when you got married, you didn't tell your wife that you had these feelings or that this was a struggle that you had, or did you?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:44:55] No, I didn't tell anybody.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:58] No one, not ever?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:45:00] I couldn't tell anybody. Who could I tell? Who could I tell that would understand me?

Natasha Helfer [00:45:11] Did you feel like. Did you feel very alone in this? Like there was probably nobody else like you or very few people that were like you in this sense?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:45:22] Well, I felt that there were not any other members around me that I would have known, that they would have struggled with this, but me. And on top of that, I didn't feel that I could confine, confide in anybody to tell this nobody. There was never a point that I heard in the church that said, if you're struggling with this, come to me. If you're struggling with these issues, come and talk to us. Never, ever. I heard that.

Natasha Helfer [00:46:00] Right.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:46:03] So that was. That was not a choice. That was not a choice.

Struggles With Intimacy During Marriage

Natasha Helfer [00:46:09] So now you're married and you're trying to, you know, like you said, live the gospel to your best abilities, be active in the church. You have, you know, two children in this marriage. Can you walk me through a little bit of how this struggle continued to be part of your life?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:46:35] Well, it was. I remember I used to travel to Latin America for business and I used to go to different temples. I would go to the Mexican temple, I went to Sao Paulo temple, I went to the Buenos Aires temple. And I remember that I stayed two weeks in Sao Paulo one time and I said, I'm going to go to the temple every day. I'm going to make the time to go to the temple every day and do a session every day. Hopefully this will help me. And. It wouldn't. It wouldn't. It would stay. Be there. Of course, the feelings would be stronger sometimes and weaker some other times. To be blunt, summers were hard for me

Natasha Helfer [00:47:58] because people. Men were less clothed, you mean?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:48:01] Yes. You would go on the street. And there would be men running in

Natasha Helfer [00:48:06] shorts, you know, or without a shirt or things.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:48:10] Yeah, just with shorts. And they would be running and things like that. That was, you know, not a good thing. Yes. And. But I kept saying, well, I'm gonna keep doing my best because, you know, I made a commitment, and I know I can do this, and I know that this, you know, it needs to go away, but I never did.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:44] And how did this manifest with your relationship with your wife? I mean, were you able to find that you were attracted to her at any level? Did this completely affect your ability to be intimate with her?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:48:58] It did affect my intimacy with my wife, of course, in many ways. Even though we were very loving and caring for each other and affectionate with each other, when it came to the real intimacy of the act, it was hard for me, and I would get really frustrated, and I would tell her, you know what? We need to get divorced. This is not. This is not good. And she would come and say, don't worry. Everything's okay. No, it's okay. It's not a big deal. You know, that's fine. And in many ways, The most frustrating part about that was that in the other areas of the marriage, communication, affection, getting along, enjoying each other's company, we were 100%. We enjoyed each other so much in many other areas. And for me, it was even more frustrating because I couldn't be the husband that I wanted to be for her.

Natasha Helfer [00:50:32] So feeling like you're continually failing her.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:50:34] Mm, absolutely.

Natasha Helfer [00:50:42] And, you know, it's interesting. It reminds me of something that you told me one time that you had been told. I forget by what type of leader, but it was your bishop or your stake president at the time. But, you know that for some people, maybe sexual intimacy is not meant to be. You know, there's people who are paraplegics or, you know, have some type of disorder or something, that they can't be sexual with their spouse. And so kind of making the assumption that you, because of these other good aspects of your marriage and because you guys had a strong marriage, you know, in other areas, that maybe this shouldn't be such a big deal.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:51:27] Exactly. And I said, no. Love is different when you are not capable of doing it because you're paraplegic. It's different because you are not physically able. But when you have. If you have the desire and you can't, it's a different situation. When you say, I have, I will. I wish I had. I had the attraction, and it's not there. That is Very frustrating.

Natasha Helfer [00:52:09] Right. So walk me through how this kind of came to a head. How did this finally come to light? And how did you finally get to the position where you were, I guess, knocking on my door?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:52:31] I. I got to the point where I got very frustrated, and I got to the point where I could not sleep, I could not. I could not do anything. And the problem that happened was that I started acting on my feelings. I went. I always liked to, you know, exercise and things like that. And one time I went to the gym that I used to frequent, and when I left, when I was leaving the gym, there was a man waiting for me on the outside that saw me in the gym.

Natasha Helfer [00:53:41] And made a move, I guess.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:53:42] Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:53:46] And for you, that was a pretty overwhelming feeling or.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:53:51] Oh, yes. It was like, wow, what a difference. It was like, because before I was considering myself and saying, well, maybe. Maybe I am not much of a sexual being, maybe. And I would tell my wife, maybe I am kind of asexual, or maybe I am kind of not much into sexual intimacy, or maybe, you know, I was looking for excuses to say, this is maybe who I am, and maybe this is what I am, you know, that I'm not much of a sexual being. And that was not the case.

Natasha Helfer [00:54:39] So you were trying to blame it on maybe being asexual?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:54:42] Mm, yes. Or saying, you know, especially because we had such a good relationship, my ex wife and I. And I said, well, maybe, you know, it's because I'm not much of a sexual being. Even though every time I had. The few times that we would be intimate, I had to emotionally and mentally get myself. How can I say this prepared, where I would think that I was having sex with a man.

Natasha Helfer [00:55:33] So really a big disconnect between you and your wife?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:55:36] Oh, yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:55:40] And at this. At this moment, when you are approached by this man, you're still very much. Still active in the church, you're still very much holding callings, you're still very much married. So you kind of start going into a double life.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:55:58] Yes. Because once I experienced that, it was like, wow, it was like an awakening. And said, this is what is all about for me as a human being, as a man. This is what it feels to be attracted to somebody. This is what it feels to have, you know, a sexual desire for somebody.

Natasha Helfer [00:56:43] And it was pretty powerful.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:56:44] Yes, absolutely. Absolutely, yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:56:50] And so does this come to a head because somehow your wife finds out about this, or you decide to tell your wife about this, or. How long were you leading a double life?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:57:01] Well, I met. I Had a relationship with somebody for a little bit and I felt head over heels for this guy.

Natasha Helfer [00:57:14] And

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:57:17] because I was married, he said, I cannot do this anymore. And I got into a big depression and I couldn't sleep and I couldn't, I didn't have appetite. I went into a deep depression and my ex wife started asking me, what's wrong with you and what's wrong with you and what's wrong with you and what's wrong with you? And finally one time it was winter and she went to give me my winter coat and it fell down and my sleeping pills came out of the coat. I was taking sleeping pills at night to be able to sleep because I had to function some way or another.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:57:57] I had to go to work, I had to, you know, I had a family. I had, you know, I had to look normal to everybody. And when she saw the sleeping pills, she started telling me, you need to tell me what's wrong. You need to tell me what's wrong. You need to tell me what's wrong. I know there is something wrong. I know there is something wrong. And I finally told her.

Natasha Helfer [00:58:26] And what was that like?

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:58:28] It was hard. It was very hard. And her reaction, her reaction at the beginning was, oh, I'm so sorry. She started crying, she gave me a hug and she said, don't worry, we're going to go through this, it'll be okay. And she encouraged me to talk to my bishop and I talked to my bishop and in that time I had a very high stake calling and I had to talk to my stake president.

Natasha Helfer [00:59:04] So pretty incredible loving response from your wife.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:59:09] Yes, that was at the beginning. But then after that, I think that is typical to go through, well, this, you lied to me, you never loved me. You know, all these typical, the anger set in. The anger set in and it's very much understandable. I understand that completely.

Natasha Helfer [00:59:35] The betrayal and the, all those feelings that go along with that.

Marcos (anonymous client) [00:59:39] Yes, absolutely, yes. And when I came out to my bishop and I came out to my stake president and I was excommunicated, that's when I started seeing you.

Confiding in Priesthood Leaders

Natasha Helfer [00:59:54] So walk me through what that process was like to go to these priesthood leaders of yours and tell them something. So I'm sure private for one, and I'm sure embarrassing or guilt ridden for you in another way, especially with, you know, all your feelings about the church. So what was that like? And what were their responses like?

Marcos (anonymous client) [01:00:17] Well, I can, I can tell you that it was not easy. I mean, it was very hard. And. But on the other side it was a big weight that I was taking away from my shoulders. I said, finally, I can get this heavy weight that I have away. And it was a big relief for me to say, yes, it's out, and I have to go through the process. And I agreed to do whatever I had to to save my marriage. I said, I'll do whatever it takes. But I was very clear when I. When I talked to my wife, I said, I am not going to be in a marriage where we are not going to be able to make love to each other.

Natasha Helfer [01:01:19] Yeah. I remember you telling me early on that one of the. One of your requirements was that we not expect you to just be celibate the rest of your life.

Marcos (anonymous client) [01:01:29] Yes. Or that. I could not. I could not. Because when you love. When you love somebody, up to this point, up to today, I have not changed my beliefs that the best way that you can show somebody that you love that person is through making love to that person. When you have your spouse, you know, your partner, whoever it is, that is the best way you can do it. And if I could not do that to my wife, if we could not do that to each other, for me, was. Was not good.

Natasha Helfer [01:02:21] It was not gonna work. It was.

Marcos (anonymous client) [01:02:23] It was not gonna work. No. Because, you know, when we were married, and in many ways, we had a good marriage. You know, we communicated very well. We respected each other, we loved each other. You know, I remember that when we were going to get divorced that the. The word went out in our word. In our word that we were going to get divorced. There were two couples, friends of us, that came to our house and said, we will do whatever it takes for you guys not to get divorced, because you shouldn't get divorced. You love each other. We know that you love each other. We can see that you love each other. And then I sat them down, I said, you want to know why? Let me tell you why. And then they couldn't say anything because they were right.

Natasha Helfer [01:03:21] You did love each other, but they didn't know what the issue was.

Marcos (anonymous client) [01:03:29] Exactly. And so it was, you know, so when I went through the process, my condition was, I'm not expecting that we're going to have this amazing intimacy. We're not going to be the best lovers in the world. I just want to be able to show my wife how much I love her through lovemaker. That's the only thing I want.

John Dehlin [01:04:02] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories). To comment on this episode or to discuss it with others, please check us out online@mormonstories.org if you want to find other friends, family members, former missionary companions, or ward members who approach Mormonism like you, consider adding me, John Dehlin, as your Facebook friend. This may seem like a strange idea, but many of my closest friends have discovered that they are not alone in their thoughts or feelings or family or even a word situation through discovering mutual Facebook friends. Finally, to keep Mormon stories alive, please consider a donation@mormonstories.org music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:51] Even though it be a cross that raised me, still all my song shall

John Dehlin [01:05:00] be Nearer my go to thee Nearer

Marcos (anonymous client) [01:05:05] my go nearer to thee. Sa.

Beginning Reparative Therapy

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 201

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories) Podcast is made possible through the financial contributions of its listeners to keep it alive and available to future generations. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org

Natasha Helfer [00:00:15] so then we get to the point where you come and start seeing me, and you came both individually, and we also had sessions with your ex wife as well. We had marital and individual sessions that we were working. And I believe. And I'd like to hear your perspective on this, because this is 10 years ago, I think 11 years ago that this happened. I believe, and I hope that I was very upfront with you that this was not an area of expertise for me.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:00:47] Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:00:49] And that I would be more than willing to work with you guys as long as you understood that and as long as you understood that. We were kind of going on a quest together to see what in the heck is out there and what can we do about this, and are there remedies or treatments or whatever? Because, of course, my training did not cover anything along the lines of reparative therapy, which is what they call therapy, which tries to change the homosexual, what, drive or I guess, template sexual arousal template to one that is heterosexual. So I had not had any training in that, in my professional training. And I also knew that many therapists and much of the psychology field feels that this is even unethical practice to try to do this.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:01:41] Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:01:41] So I believe I was very upfront about all that.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:01:44] Absolutely.

Natasha Helfer [00:01:46] And we kind of went from there. Yes.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:01:49] And I have to tell you, and I have to tell your audience that you were the best.

Natasha Helfer [00:01:57] Oh, that's. You're very kind. I was very inexperienced at that time, I believe.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:02:03] Yes, you were inexperienced, but you treated us with dignity and you gave us the tools that we needed to do what we needed to do. I think that. I remember that when I remember that your husband was transferred from the town that we used to live in and you moved and we had to look for another therapist.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:02:36] We didn't find another one. And I was still married to my wife back then. And then I remember that we would go for walks and she knew that something was wrong with me, and she would ask me, do you think that. What do you think is our future? Do you think that we're going to last? Do you think that we're going to be. And I would say, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. And finally one day I said, I'm very thankful to Sister Parker, because thanks to her, I understand.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:03:19] And I Understood that I am not a heterosexual man that is experiencing with something new. I'm not a bisexual man that is attracted to women and can be attracted to men. I am a complete homosexual man, and I am not going to change.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:03:48] And that was basically, you know, the realization that, you know, it's very easy sometimes. And I have to say this when people out there say that homosexuality is a choice. And every time people ask me, tell me that that is it a choice, I ask them, are you heterosexual? And they say, oh, yes, I am. And I say, when did you choose to be heterosexual?

Natasha Helfer [00:04:25] Right.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:04:26] You. You don't choose. You don't choose to be one or, You know, so it is what it is.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:42] So the first thing I remember doing after that first session with you guys is desperately starting the research cycle, right? Yes. And so I, of course, I called LDS Family Services. I was contracting with them at that time, you know, to ask them what, you know, what kind of resources they had available, what thoughts they had.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:09] I had a very good social worker who was kind of my. I guess I don't know if he was my boss because again, I was contracting with them. But he was definitely my superior, I guess, and he gave me all the material. At the same time, I think he was very honest and forthcoming about, you know, that this is something that's very difficult to work with. This is, you know, you shouldn't just expect miracles and that, you know, this is, you know, just something. Here's some resources, but, you know, don't get your mindset that one thing is going to happen or another.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:47] So I felt like he had a very kind of good and neutral position that helped me. I went, of course, on the Internet and tried to find out about, you know, whatever there was about reparative therapy. I never was able to find completely concluding evidence that this was, you know, a positive or good prognosis venture that we were on.

Natasha Helfer [00:06:14] There are, I guess, there were individual stories out there of people that claimed that they had been able to changed their sexual template. And we're having, you know, heterosexual satisfying sex now after having had homosexual experiences. But I guess the first place we started was with this book that is actually put out by the church, I'm assuming. Well, maybe not by the church, but definitely available through church resources called Resolving Homosexual A Guide for LDS Men. It's by Jason park.

Natasha Helfer [00:06:52] And we kind of delved into this book together. And in it there were a lot of different reasons as to why maybe people become homosexual or at least men. I think most of this research is Done on men.

Natasha Helfer [00:07:12] And this book is about men, it's not about lesbians. So one of the things, and as we went through kind of this list, we found out that, you know, a lot of these things seem to apply to you. Yes, there was the idea of a father figure who was maybe distant or not very affectionate or, you know, loving. And as you have already very well described, your relationship with your father kind of fell off along those lines.

Natasha Helfer [00:07:41] There was a relationship with a mother who is maybe because the, you know, because she's reacting to the father, she becomes maybe over involved or over emotional or very protective or, you know, and you kind of had that experience.

Natasha Helfer [00:07:56] There's the effeminate traits that some men seem to have from an early age. And then along with that, as you've described, the teasing and the being made fun of and not ever really fitting in with their peers kind of idea.

Natasha Helfer [00:08:12] And then even possibility of previous sexual abuse, which we haven't really talked about. But if I remember correctly, you had had some experience with that as well.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:08:24] Yes, I did.

Natasha Helfer [00:08:26] From an older person or something. It wasn't family related, but it was somebody definitely inappropriate. When you were a young boy?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:08:33] Yes, I was around 10 years old.

Natasha Helfer [00:08:36] Okay, so as we're reading through this, I think we both were like, well, holy crap, you're kind of meeting all these different things. And what are your thoughts about that now? Because I know that since then, as I've seen many other men in this similar position, it's not as clear cut as it seemed to be with you, that there were many people that I've seen that have never been sexually abused or that describe pretty normal relationships with their parents or. Yes, you know. So what are your thoughts about this kind of stuff that we were looking into and finding out about together?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:09:16] The. Okay, well, my thought right now is that. In my life at this point, or in any case, it is irrelevant in my point of view if it's because something happened or because something didn't happen or because you were born that way or because you were not born that way. I mean, there are. I have talked to men where they said, you know, when I was three or four years old, I tend to play with dolls or I wanted to wear dresses instead of boys clothes. How can you explain that?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:10:06] The point is that regardless if it's one or the other, why that has to be an issue when it's already happening, when it's already there. Do you think that going back and we try to do that. I remember that in our therapy sessions we went through a histogram of my life and how was everything and what happened to me and you know, for me to come and say, well, now I understand why I am a homosexual.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:10:48] Let's for a moment assume that I am a homosexual because my father was certain way or was not a certain way or because I was abused or why I was nosy or I was not abused. Does it matter?

Natasha Helfer [00:11:03] Because you're still dealing with the same issue.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:11:06] Well, because, because I am who I am.

John Dehlin [00:11:08] Right.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:11:11] I am who I am regardless of what happened or what didn't happen or if I was born that way or if I was not born that, you know, there was not. I didn't, you know, you can say, well, you know, he grew up with sisters and he got the female, the feminine traits from his sister. No, my father was very masculine and I always looked up to him. I mean there was not. And I think I was sexually abused when I was around 10 years old, but I was feminine when I was young, very young.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:55] Right.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:11:55] You know, how can you, how can you say, well, this five year old boy is feminine and this five year old is masculine. Why? I mean, that is people are trying to look for reasons. Nobody's looking, nobody's looking for reasons why you are heterosexual. You are who you are.

Natasha Helfer [00:12:29] So trying to explain it away somehow, that somehow that's going to

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:12:35] take it away. Explain it is going to take it away.

Natasha Helfer [00:12:39] Right. Which obviously we found out not to be the case.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:12:47] Exactly.

Natasha Helfer [00:12:48] And we explained it away quite, quite a bit. Yeah.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:12:54] I don't, you know, I don't think in many ways that because there is other, other men out there that may have grown up in situations that may have been worse than mine, that may have been sexually abused, that they may not even have had a father in many ways and they are straight. How do you explain that?

Natasha Helfer [00:13:18] Right. In fact, probably more. So there's probably more men that have had all these issues and are straight than homosexuals. Just from the numbers perspective. Because if we're talking about 5 to 10% of people are homosexual, there's a lot more than that that have distant fathers or who've had sexual abuse in their past or who have over involved mothers.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:13:47] Exactly. And they are not homosexual. How do you explain that name?

Natasha Helfer [00:13:52] Right.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:13:53] I mean, that's, you know, for me and I had to deal with that a lot and I came to a conclusion that in my life it doesn't matter. I am who I am.

Natasha Helfer [00:14:13] So then we kind of went along the path, if I remember correctly, of just kind of Testing to see if we could, you know, shift your desire. And I think we did some imagery stuff, you know, where we would kind of have you just close your eyes and imagine yourself with your wife or, you know, kind of fantasy type work.

Natasha Helfer [00:14:41] And not even. I mean, just. We're talking about, like, walking along the beach together, you know, just things that couples do together and kind of to see if that would cause any type of arousal. We did things such as, you know, writing letters to your father that we did a lot of things, I think, kind of just working towards.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:02] Well, first, your own personal healing from some of the traumatic events that you had had as a child and as an adolescent, but also towards this idea of maybe if we try at least to look at this desire template in your brain, that may be just like cognitive behavioral therapy. If you think about something differently or if you reframe something, maybe there's a possibility that you can start integrating that into your. Into your everyday life.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:33] Can you tell me about what that was like or what you thought about that as we were doing that type of work or. And I'm perfectly fine with you saying it was a bunch of crowds.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:15:44] Like I said, no. Well, for me, There were two things that I found out about myself. First, it was very frustrating to think that I would think about a female and not have any kind of arousal at all.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:16:15] And say, well, you know, why? And the second thing is that I realized that. It is what it is. And I cannot come and say, well, I'm going to like black beans tomorrow, even though I didn't like them today.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:16:48] The taste of the black beans is going to be. That is going to be there, regardless of how much I think that they're gonna be something else. What I mean is that it's not. My personal belief is that there is a range of attraction in one way or another.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:17:12] And there are people out there that are completely heterosexual. And there is a range that goes from there to people that are completely homosexual. The people that are in both extremes, it doesn't matter what you try to do, they are not going to develop any kind of desire that is going to be different from what they are. But there are other people out there that are in between.

Natasha Helfer [00:17:48] May more bisexual, for instance, or.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:17:51] Yes, some people that can be attracted to one or attracted to another and attracted to both. And in that case, I think that with therapy, you are able to guide yourself to be more integrated to one or the other,

Natasha Helfer [00:18:11] Especially if you're in a marriage and wanting to make that work. You could possibly have More success staying in a marriage and having some type of intimate lifestyle with that partner that you have.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:18:24] Because I have met friends that are living a gay life and they said, you know, I have a very good friend of mine that he said, I was very attracted to my wife and I was married for 25 years and we had fantastic sex. But that's not what he is doing right now. He is a homosexual man right now, even though he was attracted to his wife. But in his case, because I have talked to him about that, he said, I was not attracted to any woman. I was attracted to my wife.

Natasha Helfer [00:19:13] Yeah, I remember you telling me about that and I remember you telling me. This was years later when we had a conversation that that was hard for you to understand because you felt like if that had been your case, you would have never chosen to leave your wife.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:19:30] Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's what I was hoping, because I didn't know what I was going to face when I said, I'm going to go to therapy. I was hoping that one way or another there was some way that I would find attraction, sexual attraction to women, you know. And right now, and I can tell you I am one of those, and I always joke around, I joke about it, that I say, well, if you are, you know, one, you are completely heterosexual and 10, you're completely attracted to men. I am 12.

Natasha Helfer [00:20:17] Right. So another thing that we discussed was this idea of building positive and healthy relationships with other men. I remember that was one of the suggestions in this, in this book, which you did. You joined some type of quartet or something to do with singing that was all men, like an all men's choir. And you did several other things. And then as part of that as well, you also got in touch, I believe, with the Evergreen Association.

Seeking Help Through Ex-Gay Ministry

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:20:56] I got in touch with Broken Yolks.

Natasha Helfer [00:20:59] Broken Yokes, yes. Wasn't it Evergreen who directed you to Broken Yokes? Because.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:21:04] No, you did.

Natasha Helfer [00:21:05] Oh, I did. Okay.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:21:06] You did okay.

Natasha Helfer [00:21:08] So that was maybe because I had called and those were the resources they gave me. I don't believe Evergreen had a group in our area geographically. Right. So Broken Yolks was. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience and what that was like and what Broken Yolks even is?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:21:25] Broken Yokes is an organization, a Christian organization that helps basically men who are dealing with same sex attraction and help them deal with it in many ways. And I went there for, I don't know, maybe a year, a year and a half or something like that. And one of the things that I found Is that.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:22:00] Even though it was a good group, they care for each other, and I believe that they loved each other. It was very frustrating because I never. First, I never saw anybody who said, I am cured. I'm completely heterosexual now.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:22:25] And the ones who were there, it was a constant struggle. You know, sometimes you would say. You would get there and say, where is Mike? Well, Mike, he's in jail because they found him in a park last night cruising for men. And this has been. This specific man has been a guy that has been in the group for 15 years.

Natasha Helfer [00:22:51] Right.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:22:52] And. And still, after 15 years, he's cruising parks and he's looking for men. And, you know, and it's like, well, where is the benefit? Where is the. After 15 years, this guy is still, you know, doing what he's doing and feeling remorse about it.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:23:14] And I didn't see the benefit of it. And I also have to say that during that time, the leader of the group knew that I was lds. And one time he came to me and said, I had a phone call. In order to be a member of the group, you had to call the leader of the group, and he would have a phone interview with you to be sure that you wanted to join the group for the right reasons.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:23:45] And then if he thought that you had the right reasons, he said, well, here's the address, here's the location, and here's the times and the days that we meet. You're more than welcome to join us. Well. Well, one time he had a phone call from somebody who was lds. And remember that the next time that we met, my leader came to me and said, marcos, I had a phone call yesterday from somebody who is a member of your church, and he wanted to join our group.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:24:21] But as soon as I told him that there was a member of your church coming to the group, he said that he didn't want to come because he didn't want anybody to know

Natasha Helfer [00:24:35] in

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:24:36] your church that he was dealing with this. So whoever it was never showed up.

Natasha Helfer [00:24:44] Wow.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:24:45] Never showed up.

Natasha Helfer [00:24:47] So even the possibility that somebody else would know, even though that person was dealing with the same things, that was too much. It was too much of a risk.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:24:59] Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:25:00] And I need to say, too, that I believe at that time we were living in a buy, if not tri stake area. So there's a good probability that you wouldn't have known each other. We're not talking about somebody from the same ward.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:25:17] No, no. And most likely that person was not from the same stake either.

Natasha Helfer [00:25:22] Right.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:25:23] But the fear to know there was a member of the church there. And he would be. That he would be there as well. He said, no, I cannot do that.

Natasha Helfer [00:25:39] Yeah, that's really. That's really telling.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:25:41] Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:25:43] So this group setting then wasn't what you had hoped for? I remember you going to a rally of some sort. Now, this was not necessarily. Or maybe it was about homosexuality, but it was like a Christian men's organization, type of big conference or big get together. Do you remember what that was?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:26:08] What is the name of that? Oh, I don't remember exactly the name of that, but we went into a stadium and it was a great feeling. I came out of that like I felt like a million bucks.

Natasha Helfer [00:26:25] Was it just for homosexual men or was it just for Christian men in general?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:26:29] Or was for Christian men that wanted to live a committed life with their wives?

Natasha Helfer [00:26:39] Okay.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:26:40] It was very uplifting. It was very uplifting.

Natasha Helfer [00:26:45] I remember you being very positive about that experience. And it was at that time that I remember also soon after that that you kind of were very clear in our work together that you were committed to staying in your marriage and in working this out. And I will say that after that there were probably some red flags that came up for me that I don't think I called you on, but that I wondered later if you were being completely honest with me.

Natasha Helfer [00:27:20] One in particular was you seemed all of a sudden to become almost homophobic or like you would say things like, I can't believe the things that homosexuals do, or that it was very ugly or dirty to you. And I was struggling to understand where that was coming from since those were the things that you had done or that you felt attract, you know, felt a desire to do. Do you remember that at all?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:27:50] Yeah. Yes, I do. Because you want to believe. I wanted to believe and I wanted to. You know what like they do in the. In the Christian shows where the leader comes and hits you on the head and says, you're healed.

Natasha Helfer [00:28:13] Right.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:28:14] You know, I was hoping for that.

Natasha Helfer [00:28:18] And maybe I was hoping for that too. Maybe that's why I didn't call you on it. I don't know. I just remember thinking that was strange. And then later, you know, with things is how they evolved. I wondered if I was becoming a place too where you had to lead a double life.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:28:41] Well, I remember that during our sessions, I had a fall down. You remember that?

Natasha Helfer [00:28:53] Yes, yes.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:28:56] And you told me that I had to tell my ex wife. And we invite her to come. And she came and we talked to her and she said, I understand. But she said if it Happens again, That's it. And I understood where she was coming from. But after that point, I got scared to death.

Natasha Helfer [00:29:27] It became unsafe again.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:29:29] Yes. I said, what I will do? What can I do to protect myself? I mean, and you know, you cannot put yourself in a crystal ball or in four walls with no tv, no radio, nothing. So you don't have influence of anything else. Because even when you do that, your thoughts, your dreams are still going to be there.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:08] Yeah. So my training as a marriage and family therapist is quite strongly opposed to keeping secrets between spouses. And that's some of the work that we were doing as well, was just your ability to be honest with yourself, with the people in your life, with your church, and that that honesty was somehow going to set you free. Maybe, maybe not necessarily of homosexuality, but it was going to set you free. And so looking back on that, would you have wanted me to do that differently? Maybe we may. We should. Maybe I shouldn't have encouraged you to tell your wife, which you did.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:30:49] You encouraged me to tell my wife.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:51] I know I did. So I'm saying, should I not have done that? Maybe. What are your thoughts about that?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:30:59] No, because I believe that there has to be. There has to be honesty in a relationship, especially in those cases. And there has to be a communication. And, You know, It is very. One of the things that I have always been compassionate all my life, but after I went through what I went, I became a hundred times more compassionate and understanding from other people. Not only not for being a homosexual, but, you know, people who deal with drug addictions, people who deals with other kind of things that they don't like in their lives. It's very easy for me, as somebody who is not a drug addict, to be judgmental and say, well, why don't you stop what you're doing?

Natasha Helfer [00:32:17] Right?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:32:20] Or why don't you do something about it? Why do you have to keep taking that drug? Why do you have. When you know it's not good for you and when you know that, well, it's very easy for me to say, don't do it when I'm not dealing with that. Nobody understands the struggles that anybody goes through unless they have gone through that. Remember when I told you about when I was very upset with God?

Natasha Helfer [00:33:04] Yes.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:33:06] And. I would kneel down and say, why do you have to give me this? Why couldn't I get anything else? And

Natasha Helfer [00:33:21] I remember you saying that many times in sessions, I would take any other struggle.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:33:27] Yeah, I would take anything else, anything else, but don't give me this why me? Why did I have to do this? Why did I have to have this when I have a wonderful wife, when I have a wonderful family? Why couldn't I have anything else? And I remember that your little girl, your first daughter, was maybe 2 or 3 years old back then. And I remember that you could not be in one of the sessions because you had to take her to the doctor. She had some issues with her nodules.

Natasha Helfer [00:34:06] Yeah, her lymph nodes.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:34:07] His lymph nodes were big. And there was the suspicion, or there was the possibility that it would have been cancer. And when you told me that, and I realized that. I would have taken anything than having to be in your situation and having to have to deal with that with my child. And then I said, I take. God, I take back what I said. I didn't mean what I said. I'm okay with this, and I'll be okay. I knew at that point, Sister Parker, at that point, I knew that was going to be okay.

Excommunication and Its Aftermath

Natasha Helfer [00:35:06] That's really. Well, I'm just. That's very emotional, even for me to go back there. Just to clarify, I guess everything worked out fine with me. You know, my daughter's test results came back negative, and it was probably two weeks from hell for our family. But like you, it gave me maybe a new idea of what many people, you know, do have to go through. But there are many people that were in that situation like I was and. And had different results read to them and what that would be like. So, yeah, it's very, very powerful stuff, this stuff we go through, huh?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:36:00] Yes. And at that point, I knew I was going to be okay. I knew I was going to be okay.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:08] And your anger with God, what happened to that?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:36:11] It went away. It went immediately away because I said, you know what? I'm okay with this. I can handle this. I can live happily with who I am. And after that point, it took me a while to be happy with who I am. And I have to tell you that I am very happy to be a gay man. I'm very happy to be who I am.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:36:43] I don't have any regrets. I don't have. I. It's not easy. It's never easy. It's never. You always have to watch yourself, what you do and where you do it and. And things like that. But, you know, one of the things that many people do not understand is that being gay or being straight is not what really makes the person.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:37:23] It's your values, your principles, how caring you are, how loving you are, how understanding you are. And I'm grateful that I am a gay man because being a gay man has given me the tools to be much more understanding, much more loving, much more caring in many situations in my life right now.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] Wow.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:59] Okay. Well, so totally switching gears here. Tell me about your excommunication.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:38:08] Which one? The first or the second?

Natasha Helfer [00:38:10] Let's talk about the first one.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:38:15] Well, the first one, I came out to my bishop and I came out then he. Because I was in a stake, in a high stake calling, I had to go to my stake president and I went to a. How do you call that?

Natasha Helfer [00:38:32] A council or a disciplinary council?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:38:36] A disciplinary council. And. I have to say that through the whole time that I was in the church, nobody in the church treated me with disrespect. Nobody in the church treated me with disregard. I always felt loved and appreciated the stake president that I had at that time. That man, I'm sure that he is going to go to the highest level of the celestial kingdom. No doubt in my life, in my mind.

Natasha Helfer [00:39:25] Yeah, he was a pretty special man.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:39:28] He was an amazing, amazing man. And he showed me so much love and respect and understanding. I could not ask for better. But during the time when I went through my disciplinary council that day, my bishop sat next to me in the disciplinary council and

Natasha Helfer [00:39:56] who was also, I think, an extraordinary man.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:40:00] Yes, absolutely. And you know that they have six men that are watching for your interest and six men that are watching for the interest of the church that they are not, you know, that they are not. You are not. You're not being disrespected or anything like that. And then there is the state presidency.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:40:28] And I remember that I was very straightforward and very honest and very open about my feelings back then, because I said, you know what? I don't have anything to lose. I have to say what I feel. And I told them that I was capable of loving another man.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:40:57] And I remember that one of the members that was. Were sitting on the table said, well, I love brother such and such. And he pointed to one of the brethren across the table and he said, but I would never.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:41:16] I love him like my brother. And any other feeling that I could have more than that is not a feeling coming from God. And I looked at him and I said, I respect what you say, but I can tell you right now, and I'm looking at you in your eyes, I don't believe that if I choose to love, respect and honor another man, I don't believe that God will not love me the same way that he loves you.

Natasha Helfer [00:42:10] Wow. And the decision was made to educate you?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:42:20] Yes. And I was excommunicated. And I kept going to church. And I remember that my family had to move from one ward to another. And of course, my new bishop had to be told of my situation. And back then he had a reputation of being a rough, tough, kind of dry, kind of bishop. And you know, everybody was saying, oh my gosh, you guys are going to that word and that bishop. So when we got to that word, I think that the second or the third Sunday, the bishop called me to his office.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:43:04] The bishop, about that word. After we got there, the second or third Sunday, he called me into his office and his said, your family being new to my word, I had to be told of your situation, what I want you to know. And he said, he looked at me straight in the eyes and he said, if anybody in my word treats you with disrespect, if anybody in my word doesn't treat you with. With kindness and love, you need to come and tell me right away.

Natasha Helfer [00:43:54] Wow. So these men rallied around you?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:44:02] Oh, yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:04] These leaders of yours, of course, all of them.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:44:07] And all of them were very supportive. My home teachers were fantastic. I couldn't ask for better home teachers.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:15] Did your home teachers know about the situation?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:44:18] Oh, yes. In fact, one of my home teachers brother was gay and he. He passed away from hiv. And one time we were talking and we went for a walk and he said, I'm so sad that I didn't meet you before. And he said. And I said, why? He said, well, because if I would have known you few years ago, I would have been different with my brother. So, no, I don't have any regrets about the church and how they handle the situation. I don't have any regrets from the leaders of the church. I don't have anything to say but wonderful things about the leaders. They were wonderful to me.

Natasha Helfer [00:45:31] And were you comfortable with the amount of confidentiality or anonymity that you received? Like for instance, now your home teachers knew, or were you worried about how many people were going to know about this very personal thing that was going on?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:45:46] Oh, yes, no, no, I didn't have any words at all. It was handled in a very confidential way. One of the things that was kind of. One of the things that is very uncomfortable and is not related to being homosexual or not, is one of the things that is very uncomfortable for somebody who is excommunicated in the church and they expect you to. To keep going to church is that because it is kept in a way of not Everybody knowing, well, you don't have the right to give a prayer, and you don't have the right to certain things when you are excommunicated. And if you go to Sunday school, for instance, the Sunday school teacher most likely doesn't know your situation.

Natasha Helfer [00:46:46] Right.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:46:47] And he can come and say, brother, such and such. Would you give us the opening prayer? And you'll have to say, I'm sorry, I can't, in front of everybody, which

Natasha Helfer [00:46:59] all of a sudden makes your very personal, private affairs more public.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:47:03] Yes. And then people say, why would that.

Natasha Helfer [00:47:06] Why would that be the case?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:47:08] Exactly. That is something. So in many ways, you know, it's uncomfortable for somebody that wants to go back to the church and wants. Because they say, well, you want to go back, and you're going to be Reba. You want to be re. Baptized, you need to go back, and you need to show that you are attending the church, and you need to be involved to the limit amount that you can. But on the other side, you are always worried, when do I have to say, I cannot do this or I cannot do that or, you know, it's uncomfortable. It's very uncomfortable.

Natasha Helfer [00:47:50] Right?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:47:51] It's very uncomfortable.

Relocation, Rebaptism, and Moving Forward

Natasha Helfer [00:47:55] Well, so then, moving ahead, you had mentioned that, you know, we. My family relocated, and your family relocated, so we were no longer, you know, in a therapeutic relationship. But I received a phone call from you. I'm guessing about a year after we stopped working together. You were very kind and wanted to update me and tell me that you were getting rebaptized.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:48:24] Mm. Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:27] So can you tell me about that?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:48:29] Well, I went through the whole process, and, you know, I said, you know, I'm gonna stay in the church. I'm gonna do whatever it takes, you know, because I love my wife and I love my kids. And I said, and I love the church, and I still do love the church. And I went through the process, and I was re baptized again. It was a great feeling. It was a great feeling to be re baptized again.

Natasha Helfer [00:49:09] But, yeah, you were very emotional about it with me on the phone, I remember. Yes, I was very emotional. We were all emotional, I guess.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:49:21] But, you know,

Natasha Helfer [00:49:25] a second fallout came, I'm assuming.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:49:28] Yes, a second fallout came. And at that time. Well, after. After that, I. You know, I went through a process, and I said, you know what? I cannot leave. I cannot live a life worried and scared when it's gonna happen, when I'm gonna. I cannot be strong 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Nobody can. Even our Savior was strong because he was Tempted by the devil. So I realized that there was no way I could live the life that was expected of me and be married and respect my wife the way she deserved. So we decided to get divorced, and I decided to live my life as a gay man.

Natasha Helfer [00:50:46] So was there. Had you fallen into another betrayal or did you just make this decision kind of more intellectually? Or were you guys dealing with, again, other things that you had done, or are you even comfortable talking about that?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:51:00] I got to the point where I started falling into. Into again, having sex with men again. And I said, I cannot do this again. I cannot go through the process again. I cannot. This is. This is not. I won't be able to do this anymore. So I.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:51:28] I told my wife, well, when we decided to get divorced, I was not. I knew that it would be a matter of time. And I told her, I said, I cannot live my life. I can't. I know that I cannot live my life. What if this happens? Because it's going to be a matter of time until it happens.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:52:01] I knew that and I said, I'm not going to wait until that happens again. So we decided to get divorced. I remember that we were laying in bed and we were talking and. We talked and we decided that we were going to get divorced.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:52:36] And I remember that we cried and we hugged each other off light. But I knew that I had to. It had to be done.

Natasha Helfer [00:53:14] It just feels like we all were aware at some level of what a tragedy this was. It was just a tragedy for the two of you. And. I don't know. That's when I got the third phone call.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:53:39] Oh, yes. And we asked you to help us to get divorced. And you said, I'll help you.

Natasha Helfer [00:53:55] Can you talk about that process?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:53:59] Well, it was very painful. It was very, very painful because part of me wanted to be married and wanted to. You know, in many ways, I had. I had everything. I had a beautiful wife. I had beautiful kids. I had a woman who was willing to stand by me. When I came out to her and I told her that I was gay, she said, it is okay. I'm willing to stay with you if you want to stay with me. And at that time, when we. At the beginning, when I came out, I wanted to, but I realized after therapy, after going through the whole process, that I would not have been. I was not able to live a life with her knowing that I would be able to respect her and.

Natasha Helfer [00:55:23] Be faithful to her and be faithful to her.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:55:26] I knew that it was going to be a matter of time and I didn't want to go through that again.

Navigating Divorce and Co-Parenting

Natasha Helfer [00:55:38] So can you tell me what the divorce process was like? How did you approach your children? How did you, you know, decide to make this work and now a co parenting way instead of in a marital way?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:55:57] Well, the first, I never. I had to tell my kids that there were some things that I needed to work on in my thought process. I said, it's going to be hard enough for them to know that mom and dad are going to get divorced for me to come and give them a double whammy and say, well, we're gonna get divorced and dad is gay. So I said, I need to work in some issues, I need to work in some things, and I need to do it alone.

Natasha Helfer [00:56:30] And

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:56:34] mom and dad love each other, but we cannot be with each other anymore, so we have to get divorced.

Natasha Helfer [00:56:40] And you told them this together? The two of you were in the room?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:56:42] Yes, we told them together. And when I came out to them maybe a year later, or. Yeah, like a year, maybe less than a year later, we did it together too.

Natasha Helfer [00:57:04] And are you pleased with the result of that, that you waited to, you know, like you said you didn't want to give them a double whammy, that you kind of had two different times that you sat down with your children?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:57:18] Yes. I'm not. I'm glad I did it that way because I think that it's traumatic enough for children to know that mom and dad are not going to be living together is one thing that is bad enough. And then it would have been double hard for them to know as members of the church of the LDS church, to know that they had a father that was gay.

Natasha Helfer [00:57:59] And how did they respond to both of these talks?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:58:04] Well, the first one, it was kind of hard. And I told them that I was going to move out. And my ex wife advised me that. No, you advised me that it would be good if they helped me find a place to live and they helped me decorate the new place, things like that, so they knew where I was gonna be living. And we did that.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:58:33] And at the beginning it was hard. It was hard for both of them. My son, I have a son and a daughter and my son is very reserved and he didn't talk that much about it. My daughter, I remember that she came to me before I left and she said, I want you to leave me your pillow.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:59:11] Because it smells like you, so I can sleep with it. So that was not easy for them, especially when they didn't see much of a fight. We were. My ex Wife and I got along really well. We never fought, we never screamed at each other, we never, you know, so for them it was hard to understand

Natasha Helfer [00:59:48] that like here our parents seem to get along really well and we seem to have this great family and why are they doing this?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [00:59:58] Yes. So I had to tell them I have some things that I need to work with. And at the beginning I remember that they were. The mad thing about it is that they thought that I had a terminal illness and I had to tell them and reassure them and my ex wife had to tell them, reassure them that it was not anything like that, that didn't have to worry about it, that I had some emotional things that I had to work with that that was why.

Natasha Helfer [01:00:35] And they were how old at this time about or talked.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [01:00:39] My, my son was 12 and my daughter was 9.

Natasha Helfer [01:00:47] Because you guys had worked on this for about three or four years before coming to this decision.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [01:00:54] Yeah, I think we worked with it for three years or so. Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:01:02] And as if they've grown older. Have you had more discussions with them or have they shown anger or emotion or, or is it.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [01:01:13] No. And I have to say this. One of the things that, that I think it's not good if I, if I could go back and, and change anything in my life if it's not to live a life so centered in the Mormon Church. Because the Mormon church is not a church, is a way of life. The problem with that is that you don't relate, you don't get acquainted with other people that are maybe different than you. We didn't have any friends that were gay. We didn't have any friends that were Muslim. We didn't have any friends that were Buddhist. We didn't have any friends that were anything like that. 99% of our friends were LDS.

Natasha Helfer [01:02:30] And all of a sudden you don't fit into that structure.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [01:02:34] Exactly. You know, so for them, they are not used to say to see anybody who was gay because they never related to anybody who was gay.

Natasha Helfer [01:02:52] What was that talk like with your kids when you told them that you were gay? What did you say?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [01:02:57] Well, my ex wife and I sat down beforehand and we rehearsed what I was going to tell them so that

Natasha Helfer [01:03:08] she would be comfortable with your language or so the two of you would

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [01:03:11] know that we would tell them in a way that we both would be comfortable with. And if I recall correctly, I said something that, well, you know, we started bringing my past about my, you know, my, with my father and things like that. And I said, you know, I was Different. And I had known that I was different and I've been different for a long time. And I finally told him that I was attracted to men and that I was gay at that time. My son started crying and he ran out of the room and my daughter started crying. But I think that she started crying because her older brother was crying. I don't think she understood that. Well.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:12] So your son had a definite reaction.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [01:04:15] Oh, yes.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:16] To this information.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [01:04:18] And he had a definite reaction that lasted for two or three years.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:28] In the sense of being angry with

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [01:04:29] you or being angry with me. And he wouldn't talk about it that much. But he.

John Dehlin [01:04:36] He

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [01:04:38] one time told my ex wife that my dad left the family for sex.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:50] And what do you say to that?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [01:04:52] It's completely false

Natasha Helfer [01:04:57] because I think a lot of people in the LDS Church would say that. Not just your son.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [01:05:05] Exactly. And they do not understand that homosexuality. You are not. You're not a heterosexual because you have sex with. You are attracted to the opposite sex. Is the whole intimacy thing. It encompass all the things that a relationship encompass. Sex is one of them. But it is a complete feeling. You feel complete with somebody. And if you're heterosexual, you feel complete with somebody of the opposite sex the same way that a homosexual person feels complete with somebody of the same sex.

Natasha Helfer [01:06:05] So if there's anything you'd want your children to know, would be this, that you did not choose sex over your family?

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [01:06:13] No.

Natasha Helfer [01:06:14] That it was much more complicated than that.

Anonymous client (Mormon Stories) [01:06:17] Absolutely. But I can tell you that I believe that if my children would have been more associated with people that were gay, they wouldn't have taken it as a stigma or as a horrible thing they didn't have any knowledge of. They didn't know that a gay man and a straight man put their pants the same way. And whatever happens in a heterosexual household happens in a homosexual household. You have a life exactly the same as somebody with straight couple. The same things happen in the homosexual couple is no different. Instead of seeing it like this is horrible or this is something that is absolutely. It's gonna be absolutely horrible because they didn't have any knowledge of anybody who was homosexual back then.

John Dehlin [01:07:44] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories). To comment on this episode or to discuss it with others, please check us out online@mormonstories.org if you want to find other friends, family members, former missionary companions, or ward members who approach Mormonism like you, consider adding me, John Dehlin, as your Facebook friend. This may seem like a strange idea, but many of my closest friends have discovered that they are not alone in their thoughts or feelings or family or even award situation through discovering mutual Facebook friends. Finally, to keep Mormon stories alive, please consider a donation@mormonstories.org music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton.

Natasha Helfer [01:08:33] Even though it be a cross that raised me still all my song shall be Nearer my go to thee Nearer my go to nearer to thee.

John Dehlin [01:08:59] Sa.

Life After the Church and a Suicidal Crisis

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 202

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories) podcast is made possible through the financial contributions of its listeners to keep it alive and available to future generations. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org

Natasha Helfer [00:00:15] so let's talk about this a little bit. Not to interrupt the whole flow of the story, but this is something, I think that a lot of people have, the perception that the homosexual lifestyle is different from the heterosexual lifestyle in the sense that there's much more promiscuity, that there's less made commitment to long term relationships, that even long term relationships seem to be open sexually or, you know, these are a lot of the ideas or myths or whatever you want to call them about the homosexual lifestyle. So as you've kind of entered that lifestyle yourself, what do you have to say about that? What have you found to be.

Guest [00:01:03] I would say that there is everything. I would say that, yes, in many ways in the homosexual lifestyle, there is everything. And I would say that there are gay couples that have what is called an open relationship. Now my question is. How many straight couples are there that can honestly say that they have not been unfaithful to their spouse? And they can honestly say that

Natasha Helfer [00:01:51] that's somewhere around 40%, I think

Guest [00:01:56] maybe 40%. Yes. Let's say that in the homosexual lifestyle, I think that it may be less than that, but there are, I have met couples that have been together for 20, 30 years and they have committed. I've been committed to each other. So it is, I think that it is what you want it to be. The same way that happens in the straight, in the straight lifestyle, there are the swingers, where there are clubs where you can exchange wives or spouses and have sex that day with somebody else and then go home and be with your spouse.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:43] Right.

Guest [00:02:46] The percent. I agree, I think that there is a little bit more in the gay community, but that doesn't mean that there are not couples that are committed and faithful to each other and love each other and respect each other like any other couples.

Natasha Helfer [00:03:08] Want to make a life together.

Guest [00:03:09] I want to make a life together. Yes, absolutely. I want to have a committed relationship, of course. So there is. Yeah, I think there is everything. And I think that in many ways.

Guest [00:03:27] One,

Guest [00:03:30] I also think that if they, the gay lifestyle was something that was more open and more accepted, I think that it would not tend to be so hidden and so mysterious in many ways because you are, you don't want to be found or, you know, so you tend to do things that sometimes are secretive because you know they are not acceptable.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:10] Yeah, I think in the interview with Carolyn Pearson, John Dolan was asking her about this and she said something to the effect of, you know, we expect people to, you know, go live in the gutter but then not get dirty.

Guest [00:04:26] Exactly. Yes. And. It is, I think that there is everything in the gay community also, I have to say that there is a lot of. I think that you would, you will make a great life as a therapist in the gay community.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:57] That I would, yes.

Guest [00:04:59] Because there is a lot of self image issues, a lot of insecurity issues. Because, you know, you know, if you were teased when you were young and you were insecure that you were, you know.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:12] Right.

Guest [00:05:13] There are all these, all these things that you grow up, you know, if, if a young man who is feminine is accepted and loved by not only his family, but also by the community and accepted the way he is and he can feel proud of who he is and he can be happy with who he is. I'm pretty sure that he would not have the issues that he would have when he grows up

Natasha Helfer [00:05:45] as far as low self esteem and.

Guest [00:05:46] Exactly.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:48] Depression and maybe even suicidal ideation or.

Guest [00:05:53] Exactly.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:54] Were you ever suicidal over this issue?

Guest [00:05:59] Once I was once.

Natasha Helfer [00:06:04] At what point?

Guest [00:06:11] When my father sent me to the. Should I. Can I say whorehouse?

Natasha Helfer [00:06:21] Yes, you can.

Guest [00:06:22] Okay. When my father sent me to the whorehouse that I was 14 or 15 years old and I was drunk and I couldn't perform and everybody in my friends, my schoolmates, because the guy who took me there had a younger brother that was going to school in the same school that I went.

Guest [00:06:45] And

Guest [00:06:48] he was very sure to tell everybody in my school that what happened. So then he took me to the whorehouse on a Friday. By Tuesday in school, I was being teased about

Natasha Helfer [00:07:08] was horribly traumatic,

Guest [00:07:13] You know, and my father never came and said, don't worry, son. He never mentioned it. He never said that he paid this young man to take me to the whorehouse, never mentioned it, but he told me.

Natasha Helfer [00:07:34] And your father knew that you were being teased in this way?

Guest [00:07:37] Oh yeah, because the guy came and told my father what happened.

Natasha Helfer [00:07:48] How did you overcome, overcome those feelings in that time in your life?

Guest [00:08:00] I think that in many ways you never, you just have to do. You just have to live one day at a time and try to keep living. And like I said, I was not good at sports. I was not. My self esteem was down to the gutters. I mean, I didn't have a self esteem. I just tried to concentrate in going to school. I was a geek. I was somebody who was a very good student.

Guest [00:08:40] And

Guest [00:08:42] that was the only thing I could do good. And that was the only thing I felt good about it. And I concentrated, said, well, there's this. I can do good. I'm gonna do this good. But my father never once in his life came and said, I'm proud of you.

Guest [00:09:03] Not even.

Guest [00:09:13] One time. I remember that I got a D in a class when I was in high school, and he came to me and he said, how dare you.

Natasha Helfer [00:09:30] So able to tell you about the negatives.

Guest [00:09:33] Oh, yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:09:34] But never the positives.

Guest [00:09:36] Never the positives.

Natasha Helfer [00:09:41] And I think what you were, I guess, getting at is that some things maybe are not overcome in the sense that they don't stop hurting.

Guest [00:09:52] Of course.

Natasha Helfer [00:09:54] But you still chose to live, and you still chose to have a productive life and to move forward.

Guest [00:10:02] But I remember very vividly that after, when I was going through that, we lived in a town where the university was at a walking distance, and the university had a building that was like six or seven floors. I said, I'm going to go to the top floor and I'm going to throw myself.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:31] Wow. So you had a plan and everything?

Guest [00:10:33] Oh, yeah. And I even said, I'm gonna get drunk and I'm gonna go and do it. And I never did. I never did.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:46] Why not?

Guest [00:10:48] I don't know. I don't know. Why not.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:51] Your survival instant kicked in or something?

Guest [00:10:54] I guess. I guess that in many ways I was. I was scared to say, well, what I'm going to do, I'm not going to. I don't think I was able to do it. It was not in me. It was not in me to do that.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:17] Well, I'm so glad you survived that.

Guest [00:11:21] And one of the things that I have to say, too, is that in many ways, I have. I learned from how I grew up, and I can say that right now. Every time I told my. I talk to my kids, I tell them that I love them, and I tell them how proud I am of them all the time.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:52] Because you don't want them to feel that way ever.

Guest [00:11:54] Exactly.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:56] You know, this is an issue that comes up a lot, you know, when talking about suicide, is that there are many young men and women, both within the LDS faith and outside of it, that when dealing with issues of homosexuality do become suicidal and many do take their lives because of issues that relate to this. If there's anybody out there listening to us that may be having those feelings, what. What would you say to them?

Guest [00:12:41] This is hard for me. Regardless of what. Regardless of what anybody will say to them or regardless of what anybody would tell them. There will come a time when they will feel very proud of themselves. Not for what they wear or the way they talk or the way they walk, or for what sexual orientation they have or because they want to sleep with somebody of the same sex is because who they are inside and in their heart. And the bottom line is that it's not worth it. It's not worth it. To go through that is the easy way out.

Guest [00:13:59] Anybody who comes and says, I'm going to kill myself and they kill themselves is the easy way out. I think that we have a responsibility to show people that regardless, you know, one of the things that is related to this, but it's incredible, is the video that they show on English have Talent with Susan. Susan Boyle.

Guest [00:14:34] When she came on stage, there was this overweight, very plain woman, kind of, you know, funny in the wrong way and just making bad jokes. And everybody in the audience and everybody who was watching said, what a joke. This is gonna be a joke.

Natasha Helfer [00:14:59] She was socially inadequate.

Guest [00:15:01] Yes. But the moment she opened her mouth, all the views that people had of the way she looked, the way she talked, the way she moved, the way she expressed herself, all those things went away. And I believe that every human being has that gift that one day they will be able to. Wow people

Natasha Helfer [00:15:37] be able to shine.

Guest [00:15:38] Yes, absolutely.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:45] Okay, so totally shifting gears again. Tell me about your second excommunication.

Guest [00:15:53] Well, when my ex wife and I decided to get divorced, I told her that I was gonna. I had to embrace myself and embrace my sexuality and be homosexual, and I decided to live my life as a gay man. So the church came to me and they said, well, you know, you need to go through the repentance process and you need to go through excommunication and you need to come to the court again. And I said, you know, it's useless. You can do the court, but I'm not going to be there because I'm not planning to come back to the church. I. I am who I am.

Guest [00:16:45] And

Guest [00:16:47] I had to go through a lot of mental and spiritual process to understand that this is who I am and I'm happy with who I am. And if the LDS Church doesn't accept me for who I am, then I cannot be part of a church that accepts me for who I am. I am the same loving person that I was before. I am the same caring person that I was before. I am the same person with the same ideals. I just know that I have to be with somebody who is the same sex with me. That's the only thing. And only because of that, all the other qualities that I have, all the other virtues that I have, all the other things that people said that they were wonderful when I was a member of the church, all of a sudden they don't exist anymore.

Natasha Helfer [00:17:52] Do you still consider yourself to be a Mormon in the sense of the cultural term or

Guest [00:18:03] no? No. I embrace the church in many ways and I love the church in many ways. But. I don't feel like I am the one who have left the church. I feel like I am the same person that I was before.

Natasha Helfer [00:18:34] And somehow you didn't fit into the church.

Guest [00:18:37] Yeah, I don't fit into the church. Now

Natasha Helfer [00:18:41] you're about to send a son on a mission.

Guest [00:18:43] Yes, and I'm very proud of him and I want him to go on a mission and he's going to be a fantastic missionary. I know that.

Natasha Helfer [00:19:02] And you're comfortable with your children being Mormon?

Guest [00:19:07] Yes, yes, I am very comfortable with them being Mormon and I want them to be married example and I want them to find a spouse that

Guest [00:19:20] will

Guest [00:19:20] love them and I want them to be sealed for time and eternity with somebody.

Guest [00:19:26] But

Guest [00:19:30] if for some reason that doesn't happen, I'll be okay with that too. And when I, when I talk to my son, he struggled a little bit about making the decision to go on a mission. And when I talked to him, I said, I don't want you to go on a mission because of the Mormon Church. I want you to go on a mission for you because you're going to grow up in a mission, you're going to mature in those two years where you would not grew up in 10 years, that's gonna be something that is gonna make you be a better human being. That's what I want you to go. But if you choose not to go, I'll respect that and I'll understand that and I'll support you on that. But I'm happy he made a decision to go.

Co-Parenting, Second Excommunication, and Reflections on Marriage

Natasha Helfer [00:20:38] Have there been a lot of struggles between you and your ex wife as far as co parenting these children, as far as raising them or that have to do necessarily with your homosexuality or not at all your position with the church?

Guest [00:20:57] No, I have never been against the church. I never have told her, do not take them to the church, do not do this, never. I'm always very supportive of that and I want her to do that and I still want her to keep doing that.

Guest [00:21:20] It is, I am glad that they are there. What I hope is that when they grow up they will Be able to have a more diverse knowledge of people and they will be able to. Value people not for who they want to sleep with, but who they are as a person.

Guest [00:21:59] And that's one of the things that I think that is lacking in the Mormon Church. I mean, as a Christian, they say, you know, you are, you know, we supposed to be loving and caring and understanding and everything like that. Well, I don't remember the last time that they have brought a homosexual to church and said, you know, this is a wonderful person. Regardless,

Natasha Helfer [00:22:43] Is there any way that you would ever either fantasize or if things were to change somehow that you would even consider coming back to church? Not necessarily getting re baptized, but just to be able to enjoy, you know, attendance. Is that even something that you long for or wish for in some way?

Guest [00:23:10] If things would change, I would.

Natasha Helfer [00:23:13] How would they have to change?

Guest [00:23:15] Well, they would have to come and accept me for who I am.

Natasha Helfer [00:23:20] And what would that mean?

Guest [00:23:21] Like, well, you know, I know that I am an active homosexual and they would have to let me be who I am in the church. You know, I cannot go to church. And they're going to say, well, oh we can come and visit you. Why are you not married? Or we know such sister, such and such that is single that she would love to go on a date with you or you know, I wouldn't be able to be baptized ever. Why are you coming to the church for the last three years and you are not baptized?

Natasha Helfer [00:24:18] So the expectations would have to change as far as,

Guest [00:24:22] yes, you know, and I'm not asking to come and say, oh yes, you can have, but at least to be able to say, you know what, I am an active homosexual that is coming to church every Sunday and I have my boyfriend at home that I'm going to go home to every Sunday and have dinner with and be intimate with tonight.

Natasha Helfer [00:24:54] And what about things like, I mean, do you want the priesthood back? Do you want, you know, those kinds of things where even though you're living in a way that the church doesn't agree with, is that the kind of stuff you want or am I hearing more just an acceptance of where you're at and that it shouldn't matter?

Guest [00:25:14] No, ideally with me, ideally would be for me to go back in the full membership of the church,

Natasha Helfer [00:25:28] baptism priesthood.

Guest [00:25:30] Absolutely.

Natasha Helfer [00:25:32] As a homosexual practicing man.

Guest [00:25:35] Yes.

Natasha Helfer [00:25:38] Which basically makes the assumption then that your basic beliefs about the church have not really changed that much as far as what brought you to the church to begin with.

Guest [00:25:47] Oh, absolutely, absolutely. It is again, It is Very easy. I remember when I was being excommunicated and I was in the trial in the first one, you know, he. They said, you know, you need to abstain of any kind of. Relationship with somebody from the same sex. Like, it is. Like, well, let's. It's so easy to do. And my answer was, I said, well, why don't we make it equal to everybody? And let's say that every member of the church, in order to be members of the church, everybody has to abstain of any kind of sexual behavior, period. So everybody's equal. Let's see how many people are going to be staying in the church. It's very easy for somebody who is heterosexual to say, you're wrong and you need to stop doing what you're doing. And this is what you need to

Guest [00:27:18] do,

Guest [00:27:20] so you need to do it. I don't have to do anything. You are the one who needs to change.

Natasha Helfer [00:27:31] So from a purely philosophical perspective, then, and kind of going along with quote, unquote, you know, your testimony, do you see this as being something that will be fixed, you know, in the next world? Something that, you know, you'll no longer be homosexual in the next world, or do you see this as just that this will be part of the next world as well?

Guest [00:28:00] Right now I believe that God loves

Guest [00:28:06] me

Guest [00:28:09] if I choose to be. If I choose to love, respect, honor, and share my life with a man, he's not going to punish me for that.

Natasha Helfer [00:28:25] And that it doesn't matter necessarily then to you what. What happens in the next world, whether you're homosexual or heterosexual. That. That.

Guest [00:28:34] Well, the thing is that I believe that in the next life I'm gonna be. I'm going to be. Where are the. I deserve to be? Not because I choose to be. Not because I choose to have a relationship with a man, is because how I have behaved as a human being with others and how I have behaved with my partner, period.

Guest [00:29:10] The fact that I choose to be with a man or not choose that I am with. I'm going to be with. A relationship with a man or a woman, in my point of view is irrelevant, is how that relationship is between us and how I treat others, period.

Guest [00:29:38] I don't believe that God is going to come and say, well, you. Because it doesn't matter that you were loving and caring and understanding and supportive to your partner or your boyfriend. Just because you chose to be with a man is horrible. So you're gonna.

Guest [00:29:55] You're gonna go to hell.

Guest [00:29:56] I don't believe that.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:03] And following up with that premise, it won't matter then whether or not you're homosexual or heterosexual in the next life. Or is it. I guess, I mean, I understand what you're saying as far as what you'll be judged upon, but this idea of, you know, many people think, well, this is just something that will. That's, you know, wrong with you. And so then, because in the next life will be perfected, that this will no longer be an issue for you. You will not be a homosexual in the next life. Is that something that you believe or have thought about, or no?

Guest [00:30:39] I believe that I'm going to be who I'm going to be.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:44] Regardless.

Guest [00:30:45] Regardless. I don't think that God is going to punish me because I love a man. I don't believe that.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:55] Right. So the advice that I think priesthood leadership gave to men in your situation, you know, in the past, was to kind of ignore those feelings, get married in the temple to, you know, a good woman, and just focus on having a family. That's been shifting lately because of so many people in your situations, you know, where things haven't changed, where people, like you said, try to be the best member they could be and prayed and fasted and did all the right things, and yet this didn't go away. And so now the advice is, I think it's not to get married.

Guest [00:31:45] And that is a very wise advice.

Natasha Helfer [00:31:50] Which then leads me to the next question, which I'm sure is difficult and I'm sure complicated. More complicated than a yes or no. But do you regret getting married?

Guest [00:31:59] Oh, no, not whatsoever. No.

Guest [00:32:06] No.

Guest [00:32:06] I had a wonderful relationship with my ex wife.

Guest [00:32:10] We

Guest [00:32:12] enjoy our life together very much. And I had the blessing to have the most wonderful children in the world.

Natasha Helfer [00:32:30] Yeah. So how can you regret that?

Guest [00:32:32] Exactly. But on the other side, it is not fair for the other person, I think. I'm not saying that I have met husband and wife couples. Yeah. Where the husband is gay and they have had kids and they have lived a good life and the wife have married him knowing that he's gay.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:17] This is amongst LDS couples mainly, or couples in general?

Guest [00:33:22] I haven't. No, not in LDS couples. I have seen it in people of other faiths. But they have chosen to get married and they have chosen to be faithful to each other and they have chosen to have that life.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:39] Do you think a part of their success is that she knew from the get go?

Guest [00:33:43] Yes. And he knew. That he was able to be married and be faithful to his wife. They are not the usual couple, but I have met couples like that.

Natasha Helfer [00:34:14] So what advice would you give to a couple, which I see actually many now, who are in the position that you were once in, where you know, he is gay and just now coming out to his wife, They've got several children, They've probably been married somewhere between 7 and 20 years. What advice do you have?

Guest [00:34:47] The advice that I would give them is that they need to be completely honest with each other. Especially if the one who's having the issue, homosexuality is the husband. He needs to be honest not with his wife, but with himself first.

Guest [00:35:15] And like I said, I have met couples that are willing and very happy to live a life of baby. Maybe not intimacy at all, maybe no sex. And he is okay with that, and he is happy with that. And he doesn't feel trapped or he doesn't feel.

Guest [00:35:41] Scared, or he doesn't feel like he. He's not going to be able to do that. I think that the first step is for the person who is dealing with the homosexual issues to be honest with him or herself and.

Guest [00:36:07] Find out for him or herself if this is something that they would be able to do and they would be happy doing. Because we can do many things for a long time, but we need to be honest with each other. And one of the things that I thought about when I was married to my wife, I could have stayed married.

Guest [00:36:34] I could have stayed married until the day that I had to come home one day and say, you know what? I screwed up. I had sex with another guy. And it could have been one day after we made a decision, one year after we made the decision, or 20 years after we made the decision, I don't know.

Guest [00:37:01] But I knew in my heart that it was going to be a matter of time until I was going to fail My. The standards that my wife and I had for our marriage. I didn't want to live that way.

Guest [00:37:23] I didn't want to leave scared and worried and wondering when that time would have come, when I had to come and say, I failed you again. It is better to be honest with yourself. And everybody's different. Every person is different in their situation. And I think that is much more important for the person that is dealing with this to find out what is going to make them happy and is going to be able.

Guest [00:38:06] And they're going to be able to live a healthy life. If he's living with their spouse because they love their wife, if he's a man and they'd rather be with their wife because this issue is not such a strong issue, that's wonderful.

Guest [00:38:26] But if they know that this is something that they don't have to deal in everyday basis and it's going to be too much and they're going to be scared for the rest of their life, it's better to say goodbye.

Natasha Helfer [00:38:49] So it sounds like honesty is the common denominator there. Honesty with self, honesty with the spouse, honesty. I guess with the church just being able to be in an honest place.

Guest [00:39:05] And I think that the first and foremost is to be honest with yourself and to know what you know. There is a lot of pressure in the church to say to do what the right thing. Especially when you have a spouse and you have children. I cannot do this. I cannot do this. And I have to hold on. And I have to hold on. I have to hold on. And because you want to try to do the right thing, you get to the point where one day you cannot do it anymore.

Natasha Helfer [00:39:43] Well, in the conundrum between doing the right thing and somehow that means being taken dishonest.

Guest [00:39:51] Yes. Because you are not being honest with yourself and with your spouse. I mean, you have to be honest with yourself and say, I cannot do this anymore. I can't. And again, every situation is different. I'm pretty sure that they are many couples out there that are able to live a good life and one of the spouses. Because I tell you, that's another thing that we haven't talked about this. This is not only a male thing. There is also women who deal with this. And that is even a worse situation because that is not even expected from a woman.

Natasha Helfer [00:40:50] We don't even talk about that.

Guest [00:40:52] Exactly. And that is even. I cannot imagine a woman member of the church with a husband and kids that is struggling with these issues. But the first thing is to be honest with yourself and not go through the process because it's what is expected and it's what the church expects and it's what your wife expects or your spouse or is what your children expect. Because then it can be very dangerous. It can be very, very dangerous because you get to one point, one day that you say, I cannot do this anymore.

Natasha Helfer [00:41:40] Meaning this is when people become either suicidal or do something that is much more risky or exactly. Something they would normally not maybe do if they would have been just able to be more upfront about their feelings.

Guest [00:41:58] Exactly.

Advice for Others and Finding Peace With God

Natasha Helfer [00:42:01] And I think what you're referring to also is this. Do we want to have this be an issue of fear? Should fear be the motivating factor here? And I think for unfortunately many times it is people stay, people do what they're expected to do. And when you really come, go down to the base emotion, it's being afraid. I mean, this is a scary thing to be honest about.

Guest [00:42:34] Oh, yes.

Guest [00:42:34] Especially when you're told that you're gonna go to hell if you. If you do what you. You know, in the Mormon Church, they say, well, if you act in your. In your desires, you're. You're not gonna go to heaven, you're not gonna go to. You're gonna. So, you know, there is a lot of expectations, being LDs, to do the right thing. And unfortunately, that can come to a situation where the person is not honest with anybody just because it's too much expectation for them to. To do the right thing. It's important to be completely honest with yourself.

Natasha Helfer [00:43:26] And living in a situation where you can't be honest is a personal hell all of its own.

Guest [00:43:32] Oh, absolutely.

Guest [00:43:33] Like I.

Guest [00:43:34] Like I told you, it got to the point for me where summers were horrible for me. I regretted summers. All the time.

Natasha Helfer [00:43:51] So where are you at now?

Guest [00:43:55] What do you mean? What I am now. I am a happy gay man.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:04] You have come to a peaceful place with yourself.

Guest [00:44:08] I have come to a peaceful place with myself.

Guest [00:44:10] I realized that.

Guest [00:44:17] In many ways, I am the same person I was before in almost every way. The way I do things haven't changed. The way I treat people haven't changed. The way I. You know, I haven't changed. In many ways, I haven't changed. But one of the things that is important is a word of advice. You, as a therapist, not only help somebody to realize who they are, but help them to accept themselves for who they are.

Natasha Helfer [00:45:18] That's one of the questions I had was what advice would you give me?

Guest [00:45:23] Well, one of the things that. Well, yes, I would say help them not only find themselves, but help them be happy with who they are. I mean, the fact that you want to share your life with somebody who happens to be of the same sex doesn't make you a horrible person or doesn't make you a criminal or doesn't make you any. Any different than the person who lives next to you who happens to have a relationship with somebody of the opposite sex.

Natasha Helfer [00:46:18] Well, and on those lines, I just want to offer, I don't know, may my feelings of privilege that you entrusted me with your story back in the day. And along with that, an apology maybe for any way I. My inexperience or my, you know, my own biases or whatever failed you.

Guest [00:46:54] I don't think that there's any. You don't have to Apologize for anything. Because, you know, Sister Parker, I had the same goals that you had. I went in hoping that I would change. And so that is not an issue for me at all. No, you were.

Guest [00:47:20] You were the right person for us. You were the right person for me. I don't have any regrets whatsoever with that time. I felt very comfortable with you. You helped me tremendously in the times that I needed it.

Guest [00:47:42] And you never, ever, ever, and I can say ever, forever criticize me or look at me in a different way or look me down at all. And you were so young, but you were so wise, You know, I don't have any regrets at all. Not whatsoever. No. You were the right person for me. And if I would do, if I had to do it again, I would look for you.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:21] That means a lot to me. Thank you.

Guest [00:48:24] Oh, yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:24] And you were the right person for me. And in many ways, you know, the teacher becomes the student. Right? Is that. Well, that's it.

Guest [00:48:38] I don't know. And I have to tell you, and I don't know whoever hears, whoever is gonna hear this, but I want you to know that if you ever find somebody that would need

Guest [00:48:52] somebody to talk

Guest [00:48:53] to that you think that I would be able to help in any way I could. I can. I would be more than happy.

Natasha Helfer [00:49:02] Thank you for that offer. That's very, that's very kind of you.

Guest [00:49:06] Oh, absolutely.

Natasha Helfer [00:49:09] Well, I'm gonna finish then this fabulous interview with you that I'm so grateful you decided to do with me. With the question of are you at peace with your God?

Guest [00:49:24] Oh, yes, very much.

Natasha Helfer [00:49:27] Can you tell me a little bit about that and your relationship with him, her, them, however you see that?

Guest [00:49:34] Well, no, I see my heavenly Father having changed is the same one that I had when I was lds. He is the same being the same God that I had before. The difference is that I understand that he loves me and the expectations that he has in me are not who I'm going to make dinner for or who I'm going to share my bed with or who I decide to embrace and love in my personal day to day relationship as a spouse of somebody.

Guest [00:50:30] I realized that his expectations are how I behave as a human being with anybody out there, including my partner or spouse or whatever you want to say. That that is what he expects me, is how I'm going to behave and how I'm going to be with other people out there. I'm going to be kind and loving and respectful and am I going to try to do my best.

Guest [00:51:14] And yes, that includes try to do my best as a partner for somebody and try to try the same way that a man tries to make his wife happy. Is my duty to try to make my spouse happy.

Guest [00:51:32] The only difference is that my spouse happens to be the same sex but he is the same one that I had before. Nothing have changed. He is very loving and caring and I know that in my heart and I wish that many people who are struggling with this would see that that when the time comes.

Guest [00:52:16] They will be asked how they behave as a human being. No, they are not going to be asked who they chose to live with as a companion as long as they respect that companion, love that companion and cherish that companion and try to make that companion happy. That is my God now.

Closing Thoughts and Message of Hope

Natasha Helfer [00:52:52] Well, Marcos, I can't thank you enough for being willing to talk. I know about such very, very sensitive and even confidential things and with I know your goal as well, to reach out to others in similar situations and you know, hopefully send out messages of hope and love and all those things that I think we want for our fellow brothers and sisters. So thank you so much for being here today and for accepting this invitation that I offered you.

Guest [00:53:30] Well, I tell you, that is it's an honor for me that you chose to talk to me. You remember that I am your fan number zero because I'm not your fan number one. I'm even more than number one fan for you. I think you are fantastic. Whoever get in touch with you is going to be is going to be very blessed to have you.

Natasha Helfer [00:54:01] Well, you're making me blush now, but thank you. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much.

Guest [00:54:09] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:54:13] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories). To comment on this episode or to discuss it with others, please check us out online@mormonstories.org if you want to find other friends, family members, former missionary companions, or ward members who approach Mormonism like you, consider adding me, John Dehlin, as your Facebook friend. This may seem like a strange idea, but many of my closest friends have discovered that they are not alone in their thoughts or feelings or family or even award situation through discovering mutual Facebook friends. Finally, to keep Mormon stories alive, please consider a donation@mormonstories.org music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. My song shall be Nearer I go

Guest [00:55:14] to thee Nearer my go nearer to thee.

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