Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1771

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's May 7, 2023, and today I'm super excited for our interview. Today we're interviewing Saane Ciale. Hey, Saane, how's it going?

Saane Siale [00:00:14] Hello. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:15] Yeah. We also have in studio a face that will be familiar to many of you. Nate's joining us. Hey, Nate, how's it going?

Nate Byrd [00:00:23] Going good, John. Thanks for having me back.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] Yeah. Sanne, why is Nate here?

Saane Siale [00:00:28] Well, for one, he's a really good friend of mine. We go way back, not only through attending byu, but also being a part of Black Student Union, which is a club at byu. Also just being involved with activism in general when we were on that campus.

John Dehlin [00:00:44] Yeah. Yeah. So you were super close to Nate and many of many of his friends.

Saane Siale [00:00:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] And Nate, I just love having you here. I asked that hypothetically, but the truth is, I'm super glad you're here. Thanks for joining us.

Nate Byrd [00:00:57] Happy to be here for sure. Happy to be able to support Sunday. We've been in a lot of the same circles for years, so.

John Dehlin [00:01:02] Yeah.

Saane Siale [00:01:03] Thanks, Nate.

John Dehlin [00:01:05] So I guess one of the main themes is going to be like being a racial minority, cultural minority at BYU for sure. What that's like.

Saane Siale [00:01:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:14] Trying to fight for equality or social justice at byu. Yeah. And then I guess we've probably had a few people on Mormon stories that. That come from kind of some of the Polynesian countries. But you originally, your ancestry comes from Tonga, right?

Saane Siale [00:01:31] Yes, that's correct. Yeah. I'm full Tongan.

John Dehlin [00:01:33] So this might be a Tongan. This will be a Tongan Mormon story as well.

Saane Siale [00:01:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] I don't know that we've ever really had that before. So I'm super excited about that. So who's this curly haired dude that's with us?

Saane Siale [00:01:44] This is my old bishop,

John Dehlin [00:01:51] Bishop Bo.

Beau Oyler [00:01:51] Yeah, Bishop Bo. Bishop.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] Bishop O. Is it Bishop O or Bishop Bo?

Beau Oyler [00:01:56] Bishop Bo. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm Beau Oyler and huge fan of Sunny and just one more way in which I get to show my love and support for her.

Saane Siale [00:02:05] Yes.

Beau Oyler [00:02:05] So happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:07] Yeah. And for those of you who followed Mormon stories for years, I guess Saane grew up in Carolyn Pearson's ward. That'll be a name that'll be familiar with many of you.

Saane Siale [00:02:18] That's true.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] And Bo served as bishop of that ward, both Stanley's bishop and Carolyn Pearson's bishop for 5ish years. 5 years in walnut Creek or Oakland?

Beau Oyler [00:02:30] Yeah, Walnut Creek is just east of Oakland. So we Were in the Oakland stake. And yeah, I got to serve with Carolyn Pearson and Sanne and so many amazing people.

Saane Siale [00:02:41] Oh, yes, I loved that word.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] So shout out to Carolyn. Hopefully I'm sure she'll be joining in. So you've got your posse here with you.

Saane Siale [00:02:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:49] All right.

Saane Siale [00:02:49] 100%.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] All right. And oftentimes we like to begin more stories by giving people a chance to kind of state their intention, why they want to do Mormon stories. Sometimes people make assumptions about what it means to go on.

Saane Siale [00:03:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:04] Either Mormon stories or just to speak publicly in a cultural context where it's discouraged sometimes to speak openly and candidly, especially if you're speech involves criticisms. So what would you like to state to begin with about your intentions of why you wanted to tell your story?

Saane Siale [00:03:23] Yeah, I mean, Even today being May 7, the month of May is AAPI month, which stands for Asian American and Pacific Islander month. And the reason why I bring that up is being someone that is Pacific Islander, specifically Polynesian. I'm really passionate about highlighting voices from my own community, from my ethnic, racial background. And so that's a little bit about my intention is really being another voice that people may not have had access to hear otherwise. And so that's really what it's about for me, being able to share. Again, not trying to speak for the entire Pacific Islander community, but really just adding a voice, my own voice and my own story. And what that. And how could that. How that could relate to other people and resonate with other people is also a hope that I have by being here.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] Beautiful.

Saane Siale [00:04:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] All right. And gentlemen, you guys chime in whenever you want. Is that all right?

Nate Byrd [00:04:20] Sounds good.

John Dehlin [00:04:21] Again, it's great to have you both. All right, so nice. So where does your Mormon story begin? I'm sure it begins before you were born. Is that right?

Saane's Father and His Roots in Tonga

Saane Siale [00:04:30] Yes, 100%. When I think about where it begins, it really starts with my dad. My dad, he. To give you guys context, he will turn 80 on June. June 26th.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] And you're held.

Saane Siale [00:04:46] I am 26.

John Dehlin [00:04:47] Okay.

Saane Siale [00:04:48] Yes. So I grew up having a father that was obviously a lot older than my peers fathers. And so that was a very obvious thing growing up. My dad is. Could be my grandpa, also my great grandpa to some people. So anyways, my dad grew up hardcore Methodist, so he grew up in the Methodist church. His dad was a priest in Tonga. In Tonga, yes. Yeah. Yeah. My dad grew up in the island of Wawa', u, but he was actually taken to the capital, Nuku Olofa at a young age. And through that, he had a great introduction to education. Education is something that my dad really, really, really cared about. It's right next to his belief in God. So go so. And so that was always something that naturally came to him. And in having this kind of sense of learning and growing his own knowledge of the world, he's just a natural student, is how I would describe my dad. And growing up, I mean, my dad graduated at the top of his class. He's received the highest honors that you possibly could get in education. It was through education that actually drew him to a position within royalty. What I mean by that is my dad grew up in poverty. So the island that he came from, a lot of people refer to as the bush. And so when my dad came to the capital, I mean, my dad was considered a commoner. But it was through education that my dad kind of excelled and had access to opportunities. It's funny because he mentioned how there was a newspaper advertisement for a position to work within the parliament, so to be the secretary to the king. And so my dad saw that he applied for it, he was asked to be interviewed. And once he was interviewed, he was immediately offered the position.

John Dehlin [00:06:44] So he's working for the king of Tonga?

Saane Siale [00:06:46] Yes, King Thibault IV at the time. So, yeah, and so he worked within the parliament. And so the way that he described his position, he was the secretary to the king. So if you wanted to meet with the king, you had to see my dad first. So my dad was the faith basically of the palace. And so whether that was with government officials, even leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, my dad met with first to, well, for one, create relationships and also handle meetings. And, yeah, my dad would basically, he planned everything, everything that the king would do, the people that he would see. My dad was a part of organizing. And so, yeah, my dad met a lot of church leaders. For instance, he met David O. McKay. He met Gordon B. Hinckley when he was an apostle, and Thomas S. Monson also when he was an apostle. Yeah. Obviously at the time, he didn't know what their position was or what that meant to him. It's just white men, Americans.

How the LDS Church Grew in Tonga and Samoa

John Dehlin [00:07:54] Let me ask one thing that people may not know about the Mormon Church and maybe many church members won't know, is that islands or countries like Tonga and Samoa have a very high percentage of LDS Church members.

Saane Siale [00:08:08] Oh, yes, they do.

Nate Byrd [00:08:09] Can you.

John Dehlin [00:08:10] Can you just. Do you know anything about the history of how the Mormon Church got such a high percentage of membership in those two. Those two countries?

Saane Siale [00:08:19] Specifically, yeah, that's a great question. I think it really goes back to the relationships that the church, like I was explaining with my dad, the relationships that the church made with not only. Well, at least in Tonga. I can speak for Tonga. I don't really know much about Samoa. But what I would think of first is really the relationships that the church established with the royal families within the different islands. Like I said, my dad, you know, obviously organized meetings with the highest church authorities with the king. And so if you can get the king on board, obviously it's much easier to get an entire people who already follow the royal family to also join in on what is this church? What is this message that they have to offer? Even in the island of Tonga, they have what's called Liahona High School, which my dad also helped establish, which obviously, if, you know, obviously where Liahona comes from, that's obviously from the LDS Church is a school that they built and funded. And so I think that also helped as well the church kind of establishing different organizations that kind of helped uplift, like, people within the islands. That was a huge, I think, a huge draw in for people. And obviously missionary work, just sending tons of missionaries. One of the ways that, you know, obviously my dad met with different church authorities, they had obviously expressed to my dad their testimonies, taught my dad a lot. But it was really through missionaries that my dad chose to be baptized. And so did.

John Dehlin [00:09:56] Did any members of the Tongan royal family ever convert to the church?

Saane Siale [00:09:59] Oh, yeah, there's. There's plenty. I can't specifically name each and every one, but, yeah, there are definitely people from the royal family throughout the history of Tonga that have converted to the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] So. So the Mormon Church would have sent missionaries to Tonga and then at some point baptize some or many of the royal family and then the island. Do you have a sense for what percentage of the people on the island?

Saane Siale [00:10:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the last assist, the last statistic that I saw, at least from the islands of Tonga, 64% are considered LDS.

John Dehlin [00:10:34] Yeah.

Saane Siale [00:10:34] And then the other Utah is not

John Dehlin [00:10:37] even 64% active Mormon.

Saane Siale [00:10:39] Right, right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:41] So it's.

Saane Siale [00:10:41] It's.

John Dehlin [00:10:42] It's. But it's not an official religion of the. Of the island, but over half of.

Saane Siale [00:10:46] Over half, yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] Okay, that's significant.

Saane Siale [00:10:48] Yeah, huge. Yeah. Huge number. There's about 19 stakes in the islands of Tonga, and In Samoa, there's 26 stakes. And then even in the islands of Tahiti, which is actually where I served my mission, 1 in 10 are LDs part of the church. So, yeah, huge numbers within Polynesia.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] And from my time working at church headquarters, the activity rates in both Tonga and Samoa are actually very high.

Saane Siale [00:11:12] I believe it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:13] In terms of just not just membership, but people attending regularly.

Saane Siale [00:11:18] Right.

John Dehlin [00:11:19] It's a very. Is it a very Mormon island? Is that even fair to say?

Saane Siale [00:11:22] I would say that, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:23] Yeah, for sure.

Saane Siale [00:11:24] I mean, I think of my dad. He's very hardcore Mormon. I would describe him, and my dad was actually. So he's the oldest in his family, and he was the first to join the church, which was huge because he came from a very strictly Methodist family. His dad was a priest, was, excuse me, a minister for the Methodist Church. And so that was not common for somebody like my dad and the background that he came from to convert.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] Okay.

Saane Siale [00:11:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:54] Okay. So your dad gets a job with the King. Yes, But. But at that point, wasn't lds.

Saane Siale [00:12:00] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:12:00] Okay. And then. And then at some point, he converted.

Saane Siale [00:12:03] Yes. Yes. So he started working for the king in 1968. So my dad was born in 1943. So he was roughly in his early 20s. He was about my age, actually, in 1969 when he was officially baptized. He always reminds me of the date. March 25, 1969. He was baptized. He counts that as his second birthday, so.

John Dehlin [00:12:25] And that's the year I was born,

Saane Siale [00:12:27] just to give you context. That's cool.

John Dehlin [00:12:30] Yeah.

Saane Siale [00:12:31] Yes. And so, yeah, my dad was baptized, and it was actually through my dad's position that he was able to come to America in 1972.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] Okay.

Saane Siale [00:12:41] Yeah. And so the church leaders actually told my dad how to start the immigration process.

John Dehlin [00:12:48] Do you know why he wanted to come here? Like, he had a pretty sweet gig with the King.

Saane Siale [00:12:52] Yeah. Yeah. Main thing was, honestly, access to education. My dad's big thing was. And also the idea of the American dream, that was something that was very real. Whether it was through watching English, American movies growing up, my dad just always had this idea that, you know, America is where it's at. That's where I want to establish my own name and my future family. And so, yeah, that was a huge motivating factor. And the thing is, like I said, if you remember how my dad grew up, he would have never had that opportunity. But he was in probably one of the highest positions he could ever get, coming from the background that he did. And so for my dad, it was really like, it was his one chance to go to America. Because at the time, the position that my dad held, they did not have contracts. So how long My dad would have stayed in the position or they would have kept him. It was never guaranteed. And so my dad didn't know for sure if he would have had that position for another five years or maybe just another year and a half. And so for my dad at that time, his thinking was just like, it's now or never. And this is the best chance that I have to use the position that I. I am in to come to America.

John Dehlin [00:14:06] This is probably an impossible question to answer, but I'm wondering, like, the average LDS church member in Tonga, what. What are the five most common jobs they would have in Tonga? You know what I mean?

Saane Siale [00:14:17] Oh, that's like.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] It's a different question. It's a different economic system, I'm sure.

Saane Siale [00:14:22] Yeah. It's. It's so different. And I am. There's so much history, too.

John Dehlin [00:14:27] You didn't grow up there, so.

Saane Siale [00:14:28] No. Yeah. I mean, in terms of positions, obviously, there's the farming because, like, you have the different plantations also positions within, like, teaching at schools. Before my dad. My dad taught at government schools. He also was able to teach, so he was a teacher. So that was a position that my dad had held.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] Do you know the most common crops that are grown in Tonga?

Saane Siale [00:14:57] It's so different. I'm not exactly sure. And, I mean, there's a lot of, like, background history that a lot of people don't know about in terms of, like, colonization and the exploitation of, like, Polynesian islands really affected, like, natural resources and then, which made islanders reliant on shipped goods. And so that's something that people don't understand. I mean, and there's a huge Chinese presence, actually, within the islands of Tonga, which is a huge issue, because you have people, foreigners that are coming to the islands. And we see this with Hawaii, too. We see people that are foreigners to this land that are kind of taking jobs away from natives. And so that's also a huge issue that my dad's very passionate about.

John Dehlin [00:15:44] I'll just throw this open.

Saane Siale [00:15:45] So, yeah, I want to.

John Dehlin [00:15:46] I want to interview some people who grew up in Tonga, who grew up in Samoa.

Saane Siale [00:15:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] And. And get that perspective as well.

Saane Siale [00:15:55] 100.

John Dehlin [00:15:56] And I'll just say that it's been really challenging to get people to come on Mormon stories. Not because they don't love Mormon stories or want to tell their story, but there's this. There's this sense of cultural duty.

Saane Siale [00:16:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:13] Where they feel like they'll be betraying their culture, their family, if they tell their story. But there's got to be a few of you out there who grew up in Tongo, Samoa, who want to tell your story. So, yes, I support that. Asking Saane to represent you all. We're gonna have you represent yourself. How's that exactly? Stop asking you questions about Tonga.

Saane Siale [00:16:35] I love it. Thank you.

Father's Journey to the United States

John Dehlin [00:16:38] All right, so your dad. So. So the king helps your dad come to the United States. Is that right?

Saane Siale [00:16:46] Yes. So my dad entered the immigration process, so applied for, like, a work visa. My dad had visited the States before with the king just for, obviously, meetings with other government leaders from the U.S. like, my dad had flown to New York City with the king, but again, that was just for visiting purposes. But, yeah, at that time in 1972, my dad actually made the quest to actually apply and to come to America. And. And so again, my dad was the first member and also the first person to come to America as well. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:19] And he came to LA first, right?

Saane Siale [00:17:20] Yes. LA area. That is correct.

John Dehlin [00:17:23] So what else do you want to say about your dad and. Or your mom before we get into your story?

Saane Siale [00:17:28] Yeah, sure. I'll talk a little bit about my mom. I think that's. That's a good intro in terms of my dad and his background and kind of the. The path that he set for, obviously, me. My mom. My mom was baptized before she met my dad, so she was already a member. And so she was married to her first husband, got divorced. She had three boys with her first husband, and she was living in Arizona at the time.

John Dehlin [00:17:57] And she's of Tongan origin?

Saane Siale [00:17:59] Yes, that's correct. From the capital.

John Dehlin [00:18:00] Grew up where.

Saane Siale [00:18:01] She grew up in the capital. So Nuka Lofa. So my dad is not from there, but my mom is. And so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] Okay.

Saane Siale [00:18:10] So, yeah, my mom grew up there, and so she obviously had traveled to New Zealand, Australia, did school here and there, had experience in journalism here and there, but, yeah, had her roots in Arizona with her first family. And then after the divorce, soon after met my dad. And so, yeah, she was pregnant with me and got married with my dad. And, yeah, here I am.

John Dehlin [00:18:35] So you're born in what year?

Saane Siale [00:18:37] So I was born in 1996.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] Okay.

Saane Siale [00:18:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] All right. It's a good year.

Saane Siale [00:18:41] Yep. A good year.

John Dehlin [00:18:42] Is that what you were born in?

Nate Byrd [00:18:43] That's what I was born to.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] 96. Do you feel old, Bo?

Beau Oyler [00:18:46] And that was. I was a senior in high school in 96.

John Dehlin [00:18:51] I was three years out of BYU.

Saane Siale [00:18:54] Whoa. That's crazy.

John Dehlin [00:18:57] It's crazy. Crazy how old I am? Is that what you're saying?

Saane Siale [00:18:59] No, it's.

John Dehlin [00:19:00] We're Ancient John, are we in the same category?

Beau Oyler [00:19:04] I think we are in, in this room right now. I think we're in the same category.

Family Background and Early Childhood

John Dehlin [00:19:08] Okay, so your parents met and got married where?

Saane Siale [00:19:13] In Arizona. And so they moved to California now really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] Okay, so there are, for those who don't know, there are decent sized Polynesian LDS based Polynesian communities in various cities and states in the United States. So is that right?

Saane Siale [00:19:33] Yes, 100.

John Dehlin [00:19:34] And so is that true in Arizona? And I know that's true in Oakland and elsewhere, right?

Saane Siale [00:19:39] That is very true. Yeah. So I would say Mesa, Phoenix, Arizona area, obviously here in Utah, Salt Lake, West Valley, I mean, really all over Provo, Utah county, and then, yeah, California as well. SoCal. So LA. And then back in the Bay Area, Oakland, San Francisco. I mean, we have our own Tongan steak back home, which my dad is now a part of. And so, yeah, huge presence.

John Dehlin [00:20:03] And this may be totally not a fit, but you think about like, you know, like cities will have a Chinatown or whatever, right? Like, or in a Little Italy.

Saane Siale [00:20:14] Right.

John Dehlin [00:20:14] Are there, are there like little Samoan or Tongan enclaves where they tend to geographically actually be located in a, in a concentrated way?

Saane Siale [00:20:27] Yeah, that's a great question. That's a great question. Sure. I would say yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:33] So in the Bay Area, for example,

Saane Siale [00:20:35] like in the Bay Area, I mean, it's interesting because the LDS church is, is so much a part of the culture. It's almost a part of the culture. Like, it's not even like a religion at that point. It's literally like combined with the lifestyles of being Tongan and being LDS and Mormon. Like, that's like one and the same. And so, for example, the Oakland temple that I would consider like a point of gathering for LDs Tongan or LDS Polynesian members that congregate in that area. So I don't know if that makes sense, but it's like a cultural center. Yes, for sure, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] 100 cultural center for Tongans in the Bay Area.

Saane Siale [00:21:22] Yeah, 100. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:23] So they would live around the Oakland.

Saane Siale [00:21:25] Not necessarily live around. Yeah, live around. Live close enough to obviously drive within 10, 15 minutes at the most, 30 minutes. But yeah, huge place of gathering. Even with like dances. That's a huge thing that my, my parents recently went to a Mother's Day dance and huge flock of all these Tongan OGs that are all LDs. And so, yeah, I would definitely say for sure that that's a place of gathering.

John Dehlin [00:21:55] It's already coming to my mind that there has to be this beautiful Tongan slash Mormon culture in all its different varieties throughout the United States. And I'm guessing that when Tongans joined the church, they had to leave some of their culture behind to join the church. And I wonder if that's a, if there's a rub there. There's a beauty of the, of the Mormon slash Tongan culture and maybe some things that got lost along the way.

Saane Siale [00:22:27] Oh, for sure, 100%. I think it would be unfair to not say that things weren't, weren't lost. I think there are things that were. And so, I mean that's something that I've seen in my own experience. And again, there is beauty in the way that, you know, I mean, I recently attended a funeral for my brother in law's mom and it was held within an LDS church. And so there's beauty in how easy it is for people to gather and come together. I think that's something that's really important that to see and recognize. That's something that I valued growing up was seeing how easy it was for people to come together community wise within both the church and culturally. But yeah, are there things that have been lost along the way? I definitely think so. Especially when you look at like the conservatism within the LDS church and how that's affected even a lot of Tongan members that I know. My dad is hardcore conservative, hardcore Republican. Wasn't always. He was Democrat. He actually voted for Obama and then voted for Trump. So very, very different obviously points of views. But that's something that I've had to reckon with myself and seeing how almost the church comes before, obviously like what I know to be like deeply cultural beliefs. It's interesting. But again, in Tonga, I mean, if you, if you see the Tongan flag, the red part of it represents the blood of Christ. We literally have the cross within, like our flag. So I mean, Christ in its, in and of itself is a huge part of the fabric of Tongan society and Tongan culture. So Christianity is just already, already, you know, woven into what it means to be Tongan. Now, what that looks like with obviously the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints is obviously different, I would say.

Tongan LDS Communities in the Bay Area

John Dehlin [00:24:35] Bo, I'm curious just as an observer and as an outsider, you lived in the Bay Area how long?

Beau Oyler [00:24:41] Pretty much my whole life. Yeah. So 40 years.

John Dehlin [00:24:43] Yeah. I'm sure as a LDS church member spending a lot of time in the Bay Area, you probably had perceptions or experiences with the Polynesian LDS communities in the Bay Area. Is there any observations you want to make about that?

Beau Oyler [00:25:01] Yeah, I Think what Saniya was saying about these places of gathering. Tongans know how to party. Like straight up know how to party.

John Dehlin [00:25:12] That's what you experienced?

Beau Oyler [00:25:13] Yeah, yeah. I think two things. One is you always knew that there was a Tongan party and that, you know, they bring you in, they invite you, and like, they're really fun, lots of food, you know. And then the other thing was gathering on Sundays up at the temple. So it's really common if you live in the Bay Area to go to the temple on a Sunday afternoon, go to the visitor center. Maybe you have church at the stake center next to the temple. And I mean, at least 50%, at least 50% of the folks that are up at like on temple, you know, the temple grounds, Temple Hill, are Polynesian. And there's always, you know, always gathering, there's. And bringing food and big families and touring the visitor center. And it's just kind of part like, I guess you don't really think about it after a time that is always, you know, a part of kind of that, you know, LDS community in Oakland.

Saane Siale [00:26:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] And you said there's a steak. What type?

Beau Oyler [00:26:06] It's a full Polynesian steak. That covers the whole Bay Area.

Saane Siale [00:26:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] Now is that complicated to just lump all Polynesians together? Because there's going to be differences between Hawaiians and Tongans and Samoans, etc. Yeah, Well, I guess, let me start. Why would there be a Polynesian steak?

Saane Siale [00:26:24] That's a good question.

Beau Oyler [00:26:25] Mostly for better singing, I think.

Saane Siale [00:26:30] Oh, yeah, we can sing.

Beau Oyler [00:26:31] You can sing.

John Dehlin [00:26:32] No, but there wouldn't have been like a Western European steak.

Saane Siale [00:26:35] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] Or like Eastern United States steak. So can, can you guys help me? Why would. Why would there have ever been a ward or a stake.

Beau Oyler [00:26:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:46] Around a specific origin?

Saane Siale [00:26:50] No, I mean, that's a great question. That's a really great question. Especially when we talk about, well, how about other racial ethnic communities? Like, why don't we see a black stake or.

John Dehlin [00:27:00] Right.

Saane Siale [00:27:00] I mean, obviously you hear things like there's Spanish wards. Obviously they all don't come from the same country, but they come from Spanish speaking countries.

John Dehlin [00:27:11] In my mind, that happens because of the language barrier.

Saane Siale [00:27:14] Right, for sure, for sure. That's a huge part. Especially if you were to attend like a ward where it's majority Tongans or majority Samoans, almost all like 100%. You can guarantee that the service will be held in the native tongue. And so I like, growing up in the church. I was born in the church. I grew up in a Tongan ward. And so, yeah, the Service, sacrament, everything was done in Tongan.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] Tongan ward, yes. Okay.

Saane Siale [00:27:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:45] So within the stake there would be Tongan wards and Samoan wards?

Beau Oyler [00:27:49] No, I think that within Tonga, the way that it's set up is that the Polynesian stake has Tongan wards, Samoan wards, but all within that stake. Once you get outside of that stake, like the Oakland stake, for example, isn't the Polynesian specific stake. And so you wouldn't have a Tongan ward in Oakland steak, you would have a Tongan word in the Polynesian steak?

Saane Siale [00:28:07] Yes, that's correct.

John Dehlin [00:28:08] So it was a language. It was, it was driven by language.

Saane Siale [00:28:10] Then I would, that. That would be a essential reason as to why I think. Okay, right. Like having like a Polynesian steak would definitely be a language barrier for sure.

John Dehlin [00:28:21] So did you grow up speaking Tongan?

Saane Siale [00:28:24] A little here and there. So I mean, I lost it very quickly because I had to learn English. But yeah, I had luckily for my first early years, my dad's mother, my grandma Va. She helped obviously speaking Tongan. But yeah, eventually being in obviously school and going to school and being around majority English speakers. Yeah. Spoke English for most of my life growing up, but I can understand pretty well.

Moving from a Tongan Ward to a White Ward

John Dehlin [00:28:51] Okay, so you were in a Tongan ward for how long?

Saane Siale [00:28:53] I mean, up until age 6. And then I moved into what we call a palangi ward, which translation wise means white ward. Palangi. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] Is that the equivalent. Is that kind of the equivalent of haoli?

Saane Siale [00:29:09] Yes, yes, yes, it's the equivalent.

John Dehlin [00:29:11] What you call white people, basically?

Saane Siale [00:29:12] Pretty much.

Nate Byrd [00:29:13] Okay.

Saane Siale [00:29:14] Yes.

Beau Oyler [00:29:15] It's a gringo wars.

Saane Siale [00:29:17] Yeah. So I grew up in. Yeah. For the. The rest of my experience growing up Mormon and being LDS was in a white ward. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:25] Is there a story behind why your family moved to a white ward?

Saane Siale [00:29:29] Oh, yeah, it's. It's interesting. My dad. My parents reasoning was just more so their ideology was just like the white ward were. Was better than the Tongan ward that we were in. The Tongan ward that we were in, I don't remember much. I was obviously only six, but it was very disorganized. It was kind of like lacks here and there with how, you know, the various rituals, sacrament, even Sunday school was very disorganized. And so my parents reasoning of taking me and my brother at the time, we're a year apart. He was born in 1997, was really just more. To give us more structure. It's the same reason why, I mean, obviously lived in different areas of the Bay Area, but my parents were very intentional in putting me in schools in affluent areas with majority white population because those were the schools that had better resources. And so kind of the same, same reason my parents. Yeah. Specifically moved me into that ward that I grew up in.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] I mean, there's already, already for me in my mind some tension there. I mean, let me, let me actually ask this in a different way. So the Book of Mormon teaches this, this whole narrative about dark skin being a curse and that Lamanites were cursed with dark skin for their wickedness and that the, the Native Americans that you would see around us today, which, which according to Mormonism includes Polynesians, would be descendants of those who were cursed. And, and so there's that whole association. So can you share growing up to how. What sense you made of. Of the dark skinned curse in the Book of Mormon and how it related to you and your family? Because when I hear about a Tongan family wanting to move to a white ward, then what immediately comes to my mind is there's some self loathing, is there some like. Yeah, self hatred of their skin color, their origins and this whole idea of white and delights and moving towards whiteness as sort of like bettering yourself. For sure, there's probably all sorts of wrong things with what I just said, but it's how I'm questions that are coming up in my mind for sure.

Saane Siale [00:31:59] And I think that's a really important question. I think growing up, that wasn't really a specific conversation that I had with my parents. That wasn't really something that I heard specifically in the context of like the Lamanites or the dark skinned curse or anything of that sort. That was never something that I talked about with my parents or heard them talk about.

John Dehlin [00:32:19] You all didn't identify as Lamanites?

Saane Siale [00:32:21] No. Yeah, that was never something that we identified as or talked about. I mean, if I were to have a conversation with my dad now, probably maybe he might have his own understanding. But that was never at the forefront of like any conversation that I had growing up within the church. But I think just overall within the Pacific Islander community and with at least Tongans, from my experience, there's definitely already this idea of like anti blackness and so anti dark skin. Like, that is just in, in terms of like standards of beauty inferior. That's, that's an actual like ideal dark skin, so darker skin. And so that's something that I at least grew up understanding. Like for instance, like my family members telling me not to stay out in the dark. I mean, it's not in the dark. The sun for too long or it might get darker. And that's ugly. That's considered, you know, less than. Those were ideas that I was obviously taught, thankfully, didn't keep those ideas, obviously challenged those very early on. But that was something that was very real within the Tongan community and even something that I heard my dad say growing up. But yeah, it was never really tied with like the curse of the dark skinned. That was never something that my parents talked about. I mean, it really. It wasn't until my mission that I actually learned about that. But, yeah, at least growing up within the white ward that I attended, that wasn't specific as a reason to why, but it was obviously something that I recognized just in my surroundings. Yeah. Did I answer your question?

John Dehlin [00:34:04] Yeah. So was it more implicit than explicit?

Saane Siale [00:34:07] For sure, for sure. Definitely implicit. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] Okay.

Saane Siale [00:34:10] Yeah.

Beau Oyler [00:34:10] And I'd add to that, like, your dad would give his testimony every month.

Saane Siale [00:34:14] Yes, every month.

Beau Oyler [00:34:15] And he's a powerful man. He really is. And you never knew the ride that you were in for when Brother Ciali got up to give his testimony. But every time that, yeah, I could always see, like the anxiety come over. But every time they did, he always bore testimony of why he is raising his family in Walnut Creek. That's true, right? To go to better schools. And then he would say to be around members like you. And so it wasn't so much a self loathing that I felt, but it was more of a, hey, you're up here on this plane. And so I want to raise my family around you.

Saane Siale [00:34:52] Yes.

Beau Oyler [00:34:53] Upper middle class white people so that they can be like you.

Saane Siale [00:34:58] Yep.

Beau Oyler [00:34:58] Right. So it was more of an aspirational thing, it seems like, than it was a self loathing. Even if self loathing was inside somewhere, it was more of a, hey, like, I'm raising. I'm making sacrifices as a parent to raise my kids here amongst you.

Saane Siale [00:35:11] Exactly. Because obviously, I mean, my dad would have preferred to be around people that speak Tongan. That was always his preference, which is why he's back in the Tongan state now, because all of my siblings were. We're all adults, and so we're out of the house and so he doesn't have to worry about taking us to church. So, yeah, I would totally agree with what Beau said. It was really just. And I don't think my dad really realized, obviously, the complications of like, systemic racism and obviously why, you know, zip codes right next to each other. You have more affluent white populations. And then on the other side of town, very, you know, diverse Ethnically racially diverse populations. But yeah, my dad just noticed that there were better access in to opportunities within a white ward and within the area that I went to school in. And so that was my dad's observation. And so that's why he made that choice for me and my siblings.

John Dehlin [00:36:03] So there's a strong desire to improve kind of the socioeconomic and educational status of your kids, for sure. Which, which means more and more integration with. With the white community.

Saane Siale [00:36:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:19] And then of course, that's going to mean leaving some of your Tonga ness behind in various ways, I guess. Or maybe you can do both. Maybe you can have a both. You can stay super Tongan and be raised in a white ward. I don't know. I guess we'll find out.

Beau Oyler [00:36:35] But remember, your dad did join the church during like the Kimball era. Right. So it's not that this is coming from nowhere. I mean, this kind of white nationalism and this like, very, very patriotic, very conservative.

Saane Siale [00:36:47] Yeah.

Beau Oyler [00:36:48] Like that's when he joined the church. That's what he's coming into.

Saane Siale [00:36:50] Exactly. And I mean, his first introduction to the church is, is unique in comparison to others. He met white American leaders of like the, the top authorities of the church. Those were the people that my dad met. So when we talk about the American dream, he talked about that with them. He saw that in them. And so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:12] Okay. So do you have many Mormon memories of that, of that Tongan ward, or most of your Mormon memories, you know, once you moved, Was it. What was it Walnut Creek?

Saane Siale [00:37:25] Was that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:26] Was it? Okay.

Saane Siale [00:37:26] Yep. Walnut Creek, Second war. Yeah. Most of my Mormon memories definitely come from growing up within. Yeah. The white ward. Walnut Creek ward. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:33] So what was that like for you?

Saane Siale [00:37:35] Ooh.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] What percentage of the ward would have been. Would have been Polynesian?

Saane Siale [00:37:41] Oh, we were the only family.

Nate Byrd [00:37:42] Yeah.

Saane Siale [00:37:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:43] And it. Was it an active. Was it. Is it a vibrant ward, a full ward?

Saane Siale [00:37:47] I would say so. I mean, I feel like our, our ward at least. And you can chime in. Beau was a very transient ward. People came. I mean, I just remember a lot of people that, you know, had just graduated BYU would come. Like our ward was the ward that they moved into.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] Young, young couples. Yeah, Young couples moved out to the Bay Area.

Saane Siale [00:38:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] To get families in tech or in.

Beau Oyler [00:38:12] Yeah. Kind of pre. Like they've graduated from their undergrad. They have a job in tech or finance or law or whatever. And it's pre mba. So it's kind of this two year window in which people would come in, rent a place downtown. Walnut Creek and be in the Walnut Creek Second Ward. Very transient, very dynamic is what I called it. So people were in and out. 80% of the ward were renters. Right. So only about 20% or less owned a home in. In Walnut Creek Second Ward.

Saane Siale [00:38:39] Yeah.

Beau Oyler [00:38:39] And so just a lot of movement, a lot of different people, a lot of different. But. But a very unique phase of life kind of.

John Dehlin [00:38:46] Is it, I guess makes sense that the lowest, lowest priced housing was in this ward? Is that. Right.

Beau Oyler [00:38:53] That which would just the most. Rentals. Just a lot of rentals. So a lot of condos. A lot of apartments.

John Dehlin [00:38:58] And so those who did own homes, how would you characterize, you know, those homes? I don't know how to address that.

Beau Oyler [00:39:06] Yeah, homes. Like nice homes. Some. Some people owned condos, but most of the owners. People that owned homes were like, you know, single family homes.

John Dehlin [00:39:13] Okay.

Beau Oyler [00:39:14] And pretty affluent. Like, you know, like.

John Dehlin [00:39:17] So 10 to 20% of the world was affluent.

Beau Oyler [00:39:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] And then there was a bunch of

Beau Oyler [00:39:21] just either affluent or had been there for a long time and so bought a home 20, 30 years ago and we're still there. Yeah. But not a ton of affluency in Walnut Creek. It wasn't like we weren't the affluent ward in the stake.

Saane Siale [00:39:33] Oh, yeah, we definitely weren't. Yeah.

Beau Oyler [00:39:36] No, because you've got. In the stake, you've got the Berkeley Ward, the Oakland wards, you've got Moraga, Lafayette. Like, these are really, really nice areas. And so you have this spectrum. It's really cool. Walnut Creek on the east side, which is more in the middle. And then you've got all the way to West Oakland. Right. Which is, you know, West Oakland. And so you have this huge spectrum of life in. In the Oakland stake, which kind of makes it magical.

John Dehlin [00:40:02] So the Oakland state covers, or at least it covered most of Oakland.

Beau Oyler [00:40:07] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Most of Oakland and Berkeley.

John Dehlin [00:40:09] Okay.

Beau Oyler [00:40:09] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] Okay. That's a lot. It's a lot for a single steak.

Beau Oyler [00:40:13] Yeah. I mean, for such a big city.

John Dehlin [00:40:16] One steak in such a big city.

Beau Oyler [00:40:17] Yeah. Yeah. We used to get 1500 people out to our state conferences.

John Dehlin [00:40:21] We.

Beau Oyler [00:40:21] We had to hold him in the big auditorium up at the temple and.

Saane Siale [00:40:24] Oh, yeah, Remember those?

Beau Oyler [00:40:25] Yeah. And they were just like musical celebrations

Saane Siale [00:40:28] back in the day.

Beau Oyler [00:40:29] It was pretty cool.

John Dehlin [00:40:30] And this. And one more thing. I remember a discussion of someone named Dean Crittle, I think was his name, when. When Marlon Jensen goes out to Oakland during The LGBT Prop 8 kind of aftermath, and he gives sort of a semi apology. He gives a personal apology, but it's a stake where there's a lot of LGBT people.

Beau Oyler [00:40:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:40:54] And he gives that apology, but he. I just remember Carolyn talking about him being this super progressive yet faithful Mormon stake president.

Beau Oyler [00:41:05] Yeah, that's president. Yeah, that's Dean Krittle. He's the one who called me to be Bishop in 2012. Just an amazing man. And very much not just, not just progressive, looking to move forward, like proactively progressing and moving forward and helping his stake members move forward. And so we got babysat a lot. We get general authorities, almost every single state conference to come and, you know, slap hands and put us back into shape. And President Kle didn't care. He just did what was right for his people. He's an amazing man.

John Dehlin [00:41:35] I mean, I think there for those who are like. Who like to geek out on Mormonism. I imagine he served for 10 years, like those 10 years where Dean Crittle is presiding as a stake president over this stake. There's probably some really special and important things that happened that are going to get lost to history if people don't talk about it.

Beau Oyler [00:41:54] And some really painful things too. I mean, that was during Prop 8. He was stake president. It was during the Exclusion Policy In 2015, he was stake president. So there were some painful years there as well. And he really found this balance of helping people and, and vocally telling, like, do what you feel right about. And that was really special as a state prep, like to have a stake president saying, here's what the church is asking us to do, okay, Prop 8, for example, but do what you feel right about. He was very clear about that.

John Dehlin [00:42:28] That's a special context. And you, you were there during that whole time?

Beau Oyler [00:42:32] Oh, yeah, yeah, I was there during 2008. During Prop. Or, sorry, it's 2008. Yeah, Prop 8. I was on my mission in Prop 22, so I missed that. And then I was there for Prop 8.

John Dehlin [00:42:43] Okay, cool.

Beau Oyler [00:42:44] All right.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] Well, that's just some context. And I wonder if you were oblivious to all of this going on at the time. It was going on.

Saane Siale [00:42:51] Not with Prop 8. That's actually something that I have a core memory. It's interesting because I look back and

John Dehlin [00:42:58] you would have been how old?

Saane Siale [00:42:59] Oh, I was. Gosh. I remember being in middle school. I was in middle school for sure. So 6th, 7th grade. So 12ish. But I remember I didn't even remember exactly what it was about. I just remember being in church and people telling us to protect the church. And so for me having grown up and if, you know, my dad Like Bo said, he's a very powerful man, very spiritual, religious man. I was proud of that. And being the oldest, my dad kind of placed that, kind of like passing the baton. Like, you, obviously, you stand up for the church, you bear testimony. And so when it. When it came to the conversation surrounding Prop 8, for me, it was about protecting the church, but I had no idea the context within the LGBTQ+ community in the context of same sex marriage. I remember having, like, a Prop 8 sticker in middle school and one of my friends telling me, do you know what that means? And she was shocked that I had that sticker. And I remember being caught off guard because in my mind, I was protecting my religion. I was protecting something that was important to my family and to my dad. And I remember seeing protesters and we would, you know, like, show off our Prop 8 posters. And again, not even understanding exactly what this meant and what that meant for queer families and queer people in general. And so, yeah, I look back at that and I'm sad that, you know, I wasn't really given the opportunity to really choose for myself had I known the full context and full meaning of what that proposition would have meant for real families.

John Dehlin [00:44:45] Sure.

Beau Oyler [00:44:46] And I'd add to that, too. So I was an adult during that time and had a young family and was asked to do. To be an activist for this. And so it lit that spirit of activism. But I think for me and for many of us during that time, it was also one of the most powerful experiences of cognitive dissonance, of kind of this, you know, emotional dissonance, where it's like the prophet, the church is asking us to do this thing, and I want to be obedient. I want to sustain the prophet. But inside of me, in my heart, when I think of my friends and my family members who are in the queer community, I'm like, how can I do this? Like, this doesn't. This doesn't feel right.

Saane Siale [00:45:31] Exactly.

Beau Oyler [00:45:31] Neither of these feel right.

Saane Siale [00:45:32] Yeah.

Race, Identity, and Belonging in the Church

Beau Oyler [00:45:33] And so I think for me, it was one of those first times where it's like, okay, I don't know how to hold both of these things.

Saane Siale [00:45:39] Oh, yeah, the same thing for me. And even in seventh grade, at that time, that was my first experience with my close friend. He came out to me. I was the first person of all people. He chose the Mormon to come out to.

John Dehlin [00:45:52] Well, he was not lds.

Saane Siale [00:45:53] He was not lds.

John Dehlin [00:45:54] Oh, wow.

Saane Siale [00:45:54] Yeah, he came from a Christian background as well, but, yeah, I was the first person that he came out to. And again, the same thing. Where I was just like, wait, but this is my friend. This is somebody that I feel love for and compassion for. And what I'm doing, these posters, stickers that I'm holding is hurting him and is scaring him. And he's only in seventh grade, and I am, too. And so, yeah, definitely first experience of, like, yeah, it sparked activism in me, but also, like, what does this actually mean? And so, I mean, Nate, did you even know, like, what, Proposition 8? Obviously, you didn't grow up in California,

Nate Byrd [00:46:31] but, yeah, to be honest, I had heard of it. Like, I remember. I feel like getting a letter that they read, and they read a letter to everybody in the church, and the bishop got up and read it, but I didn't really know what it was about. And I think probably the difference for me was that I didn't grow up being surrounded by lots of different kinds of people.

Saane Siale [00:46:48] Gotcha.

Nate Byrd [00:46:48] Yeah. My upbringing was very isolated. And so for you, having that friend that was someone who was queer, and then coming out to you, that gave you a different perspective. Whereas for me, like, my whole world was pretty much lds, you know, except for, like, the few people that I went to school with that I wasn't really close with. And it wasn't until I got to byu, when I, like, actually got around other people and realized, hey, there are people from, like, all different walks of life, I started realizing how my decisions affect other people. That's, like, when my mindset really started to change.

Saane Siale [00:47:18] Yes. Yeah. I was curious.

Beau Oyler [00:47:21] Hye, John, you had mentioned the Marlon K. Jensen visit. That was a. That was a highlight of my time in Oakland. I was a new bishop. That was, like, 2013, I believe. So I'd been in for about a year. And he did. He held a special fireside at the Berkeley Chapel, and it was to invite all friends and everybody could come. And I invited some of my closest friends, evangelical Christian friends, to come and listen with the promise that, hey, he's going to talk about church history. And he did. He apologized for the way that the church has treated the LGBTQ community, but he also apologized for the way that the church has treated Mormon history. And that was. I remember sitting there thinking, this is like. Like, he just said that. He just said that things are going to change with the way that the church handles the history. And this is pre essays, right? So obviously he was working on that, but it was an exciting moment to say, wow, somebody who represents the church just said, hey, we got some things wrong, you know, and we're trying to do better, and we're going to treat history better going forward. And I remember that gave me a lot of hope because I, you know, I wanted that as every person in that, you know, Fireside wanted.

John Dehlin [00:48:39] And I'm not. And I'm not wanting to derail your story, Sonny, but no worries. But there had to have been an important reason why Marlon K. Jensen chose Oakland. And I'm guessing it has something to do with Carolyn Pearson, it has something to do with Dean Crittle, and it has something to do with the composition of the stake that would have. That would make it be. That would make that be the place where Marlon Jensen would give such an important talk. And all of that is just cultural context for your upbringing, 100%.

Saane Siale [00:49:12] I look back and I'm so grateful that I grew up in the area that I did because it really allowed me to look through a lens of no longer just representing the church, but really what it means to understand and love humanity. That really growing up in that space and being around people and being around different perspectives was the perfect kind of this cultural melting pot for me to really get the most out of my experience. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:50] So, Sanne, because both of your parents would have had sort of families before they came together, you would have had a lot of half siblings or step siblings.

Saane Siale [00:49:59] Yeah, a huge blended family. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:01] So how many siblings did you grow up with in Oakland?

Saane Siale [00:50:05] It's a great question. So I'm the oldest of four. So it's me, my brother, he's 25. And then I have two younger sisters about 22, and one that's about to be 20. So I grew up mainly with them in total with all of my half siblings because My dad had two marriages before my mom, 13. So 13 kids, eight boys and five girls. My oldest sibling is about 53, 54. And so like I said, my youngest is 20. So huge age range. So I grew up obviously with my three younger siblings and also my two older half siblings that my mom from my mom's previous marriage. And so my two older brothers, the third one that my mom had with that previous marriage, lived in New Zealand. And so I, I keep in touch with majority, a good majority of, like, my siblings. But yeah, who I grew up with were mainly my three younger ones.

John Dehlin [00:50:58] Okay. Yeah. So a blended family, lots of half siblings and step siblings. And it sounds like you, you and your three other siblings, even though your parents would have been older than many of your peers, it still feels like there might have been a sense of this contained traditional Mormon family, even though it was a blended family.

Saane Siale [00:51:19] Oh, yes, 100%. Yeah. Definitely a beautiful mixture of knowing what it means to be Tongan, seeing what that looks like, and being proud of that, and also being proud of being American as well. That was a huge two part cultural aspect that I grew up with. Having immigrant parents. I mean, my mom only recently became a citizen up until. Yeah, last year. And so, yeah, huge. Obviously, pride. Being a daughter of immigrants, that's a huge part of my identity and something that I grew up watching my parents kind of navigate what that looks like and what citizenship meant to them.

John Dehlin [00:52:02] Yeah. Okay, so what are your fondest Mormon memories? Growing up as a pre adolescent in Oakland, you know, in a white war, as a child of Tongan immigrants?

Saane Siale [00:52:16] Yeah, I think, I mean, Bo had brought this up earlier. Testimony meetings. Every month and I mean, every month my dad had us go up and bear testimony, so everybody knew that we would go up and bear testimonies. So, yeah, me and my three younger siblings. My mom worked full time as a caregiver, so she wasn't always able to come to church. So it was really like my dad was basically a stay at home dad. So I grew up with that kind of parental influence. And so the reason why I bring that up as a fond memory, I think I really just. I loved the idea. I mean, that's really what I. The act of bearing testimony, that's what taught me how to honestly, you know, speak in public. That's what taught me how to share my beliefs. Obviously that has changed over time, but I look back and I'm grateful that my dad stood up and had us stand up as well. That's something that I was really proud of. And I loved listening to my dad share his story time and time again. And my dad wasn't afraid. I mean, the word that I would use to describe my dad is fearless. And so that's something that I really admired growing up. So that was definitely one. Obviously various experiences. Being a part of young women's was also another one. Really just like the community of sisterhood. That's something that I really, really appreciated and helped me figure out. I mean, obviously there were different things that weren't as helpful, but for the most part, really just having that community and having friendships that came out of that was something that I really cherished and was important to me in my upbringing.

Growing Up Mormon: Faith, Family, and Culture

John Dehlin [00:54:03] Did y' all try and do the traditional family prayer, family home evening, family scripture study, all that stuff?

Saane Siale [00:54:09] Oh, yeah, for sure. I would say the only thing that we were consistent with is probably family home evening, and Even that we kind of struggled with. But, yeah, that was probably the most consistent thing. Scripture study was kind of, like, done on our own here and there, but, yeah, for the most part, family home evening, and of course, my dad would be the one to conduct that.

John Dehlin [00:54:33] And were you. Did you adopt the practice of personal prayer and personal Scripture study growing up?

Saane Siale [00:54:40] Yes, growing up, I did, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:41] Was that an important part of your Mormon upbringing, Mormon development?

Saane Siale [00:54:45] Oh, yeah, for sure. I think just not so much as, like, being the person that knew every scripture or knew every story. That wasn't necessarily as important to me, but more so what my relationship felt like with God and with Christ was. Was what I drew to when it came to prayer.

John Dehlin [00:55:06] What did God and Christ mean to you as a kid growing up Mormon?

Beau Oyler [00:55:09] Yeah,

Saane Siale [00:55:12] I really. When I think back to obviously now in my life, being 26, I think of my activism and how so much of that was really tied back to my understanding of Christ and who he was. To me, that was like, the forefront of, like, whether it was being accepting of my LGBTQ friends, whether it was understanding, you know, black history and standing up, you know, to racist acts or things like that. At the forefront of why I did those things was my understanding of Christ.

John Dehlin [00:55:45] What does Christ have to do with that stuff in your mind?

Saane Siale [00:55:48] In my mind. I mean, obviously the question that, you know, we hear, like, what would Jesus Christ do? What would he do? And so it was always the right thing and the morally right thing. And so that's what that meant to me in all of these different aspects of my life. And so, yeah, but overarching theme was trying to be like, Christ.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] So the right thing as it relates to marginalized groups make that connection for me? I'm not. I just want to know explicitly what you mean.

Saane Siale [00:56:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:16] Christ would be what or do what?

Saane Siale [00:56:19] I mean, my understanding of Christ and who he was to me was someone that. Who would advocate and did advocate for the most vulnerable populations and for the marginalized communities. And so for me, I mean, seeing my parents struggle being immigrants, me seeing, you know, my queer friends struggling being accepted or friends of different religions. Religions. I had such a diverse group of friends growing up. And so. And. And. And a lot of that diversity, you know, was tied to marginalization. And so seeing that and being exposed to that, that's what Christ meant to me, was someone who. Who advocated for them, who wanted to uplift them, and that's what I wanted to do as well. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:08] And your thoughts around Christ and the African American community, What would the Connection there be.

Saane Siale [00:57:15] Ooh, yeah,

John Dehlin [00:57:17] growing up.

Saane Siale [00:57:18] Yeah, growing up. Really. I mean, it came back to the civil rights movement. And obviously something that I drew inspiration from was the history of the Black Panthers, because they originated in Oakland. And a lot of people don't know this, but in New Zealand, native Maoris, they were persecuted for being. For coming from their ethnic, racial backgrounds against other. The white populations within New Zealand. And they actually adopted the model that the Black Panthers from Oakland and they called themselves the Polynesian Panthers, and they led protests. They led demonstrations. No, no, this was in New Zealand. But I bring that up because I. I studied that history. So I studied Pacific Islanders who were activists, who were advocates for civil rights, human rights. And I saw Polynesian people around the world, internationally, that looked at African Americans in the black civil rights movement here in America. And so that was something that was very. Making that connection for me at a young age was so key, was so important to me, and a huge reason of why I've always been a supporter of black menaces, which is why Nate is one of my closest friends. I admire what they do. And just seeing how that's kind of translated into my life now. Yeah, it really comes back to tying that history and again, adding the lens of being Mormon at the time, making that connection. I saw Christ and the goodness that I felt from Christ and the advocacy. I saw that in the civil rights movement. I saw that in movements around the world where Polynesians were standing up for themselves and fighting for their own human rights.

John Dehlin [00:59:16] So if I'm absorbing all this right for you, Jesus Christ and Mormonism and the civil rights movement all belonged together and were well harmonized as.

Saane Siale [00:59:32] Yes. Growing up. Yes. To me, that. That made sense to me, because in my mind, it was just more so. Like, how could it not if I believe in this so strongly? This has to work. Like, that was just my mindset as a young teenager growing up.

John Dehlin [00:59:52] And you may or may not know that for my years, those things don't fit together. In my years, I was raised to believe that the civil rights movement was probably a bad thing, that Martin Luther King Jr. Was probably a bad actor.

Saane Siale [01:00:09] Right.

John Dehlin [01:00:10] And that Mormonism and the civil rights movement are like oil and water and that. And that race and people of color, basically, you know, that there's. There's a lot of negative associations in my mind. So it's interesting.

Saane Siale [01:00:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:29] Kind of a generational difference, where for you, it's like, of course, Jesus and Mormonism and civil rights and racial equality. And in my mind, it's like, whoa, those things may not all. One of these things is not like the other, but in your mind, they all were harmonized. And that's interesting. 100% generationally, for sure.

Saane Siale [01:00:50] And it also comes back to my dad as well. My dad was a huge revolutionary growing up in the islands, my dad saw things that were. He saw greed affect how commoners and people that grew up in poverty. He saw that as injustice. And so my dad stood up to those things. And so having that background and that history and seeing my dad being so obviously, quote, unquote, active within the church, that kind of gave me a model of like, okay, I can be full force for this and also fight for what's right. Like that just. Yeah. That's why I would also say it made sense for me in my head with the context that I grew up in and my own family history.

John Dehlin [01:01:33] So the questions that immediately spring to my mind are, were you not taught about the. The priesthood ban on. On people of African American descent within Mormonism? Were you not taught about, as a Ted Benson and many other Mormon apostles opposing the civil rights?

Saane Siale [01:01:50] For sure. Right.

John Dehlin [01:01:51] Condemning Martin Luther King Jr. Yeah. Is that just never mentioned to you growing up? Was it not even an issue. Not to mention the. The layman I curse in the Book of Mormon?

Saane Siale [01:02:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:01] Not just with dark skin, for sure, but. But directly tied to Polynesians in my upbringing, my Mormon upbringing. Right. Was that just conveniently never mentioned to you or glossed over or reconciled in some way?

Saane Siale [01:02:16] For sure. I would say it was. It was never taught to me. And the little bits that were. Were completely glossed over. Oh, yeah. Yes, I know. Nate can. Can back me up on this.

John Dehlin [01:02:28] Did you want to say something, Nate?

Nate Byrd [01:02:29] Oh, yeah. Just everything was very, very manicured in the way that they taught things. So even teaching about the priesthood ban or, you know, official declaration two, everything was extremely manicured. And so they, you know, they handled it with kid gloves. And the way that they talked about it, I'm like, oh, well, this happened, but it's no big deal because this and this.

Saane Siale [01:02:46] Exactly.

Nate Byrd [01:02:46] The church is still true. Moving on. You know, it was never.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] He's not the droid you're looking for, Right?

Nate Byrd [01:02:53] Exactly. Yeah.

Saane Siale [01:02:54] No, exactly what Nate said. Yeah. It was never. Never taught to me. Never brought up. It wasn't until my mission that I kind of opened the container and it all came out. So. Yeah. And that's probably why, in my mind at the time, it made sense because there was nothing that was opposing what made sense to me. What was in harmony. To me, nothing shattered that. And so for me, it made sense, and I kept going with it, and I kept moving forward with it.

John Dehlin [01:03:28] Yeah. On the one hand, as someone who cares about the Mormon people, that's a show of progress that just in a couple generations, I don't know, one or two generations between me and you that, like, you can grow up and it's like, race. Yeah. We're all. Heavenly Father loves all of us, and Jesus is an advocate for all of us, and we're all of equal status. On the one hand, as a Mormon, that shows so much progress within two generations. But then on the other hand, in my mind, it's like, whoa, that means for you there's going to be some reckoning later in your story, right?

Saane Siale [01:03:59] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:00] It's like, wait a minute. I didn't. I wasn't told some of this stuff, but I guess I'm glad that you were able to have a Mormon experience where you felt fully loved and embraced and accepted.

Saane Siale [01:04:10] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] You felt fully empowered and, like, racial justice was compatible with an orthodox Mormon upbringing. That makes me really happy.

Saane Siale [01:04:21] Yeah, 100%. I mean, even at my high school, everybody knew that I was Mormon. That was not a secret, and that was not something that I hid. It was something that I wore with pride. And people knew that, and people respected that because they saw that. Oh, so she's a Mormon and she has queer friends. Oh, she's a Mormon, and most of her friends are black or from the Latinx community. And her herself, she's a woman of color. And so all these things, if anything, it shifted people's viewers of what they thought was Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:04:54] Yeah.

Saane Siale [01:04:55] It gave them a different idea of what, you know, somebody from this religion, in this church could be like. Yeah, people always joked that I would marry Jesus like that. That was just a thing. Obviously. Don't think that at all.

Nate Byrd [01:05:11] But people.

Saane Siale [01:05:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:12] What do they mean by she's gonna marry Jesus?

Nate Byrd [01:05:14] What do they mean?

Saane Siale [01:05:14] Because people. It's so embarrassing. But there was just, like, I went to Northgate High School, and there was this couples page. This was like when Instagram first came out. And so they would pair people from my senior class together. And so they had paired me and literally the LDS Jesus picture. They posted me. Like, half of the picture was me, and then the other half was, like, white Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:05:38] Because,

Saane Siale [01:05:41] I mean, people just perceived me as somebody who was so loving that the only thing, the only person that would make sense was Jesus. Like, nobody else in my school was, like, worthy. Worthy enough. I Guess or not good enough. I don't know. That was just, like, people's perspective. Obviously. I didn't date in high school either, so people just didn't see me in that, I guess, perspective or life. People are just like, no, she's untouchable, and she's so obviously religious and Christlike, so pair her with Christ.

John Dehlin [01:06:15] Were you bearing testimony about Jesus a lot? Were you, like, did you wear your Christianity slash Mormonism kind of on your sleeve as a high schooler?

Saane Siale [01:06:23] That's a great question. I wouldn't say, like, I bore testimony per se, but really just like, I was very intentional with how I treated people. Like, for instance, during lunch, obviously, I had a central group of friends that I still keep with. I keep in touch with to this day. But, I mean, I would spend lunch with different groups of people. I was very intentional with making sure that people weren't ever alone.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] Inclusion.

Saane Siale [01:06:52] Inclusion. I was very intentional with that. Whether it was, you know, sitting with kids that listened to screamo music, and I didn't like screamo music, but I would listen to, like, I would listen to it with them just to have connection. I was very intentional with that. And. And I think that's a trait that I get from my dad. My dad's really good at just talking to everyone and whoever, and I loved doing that. I loved getting to know people and building connection and also just building friendship. And so. And I really tried to live by example because that's what my dad did for me, the way that he lived by example and how he treated people. That, to me, was what I thought Mormonism was about, what I thought about being a member. That's what that looks like to me. And so for me, I. I tried to do that as well in my upbringing, going from elementary school to high school.

John Dehlin [01:07:46] How would you summarize your dad's beliefs in how people should be treated then? Just to put a fine point on

Saane Siale [01:07:51] it, Yeah, I think treated with respect and with love.

John Dehlin [01:07:56] No matter what their background, no matter what.

Saane Siale [01:07:58] My dad is very good. Obviously, my dad may have very differing opinions, 100% from many people, from other people, but that never. My dad never used that as a reason to treat people poorly. He was always really adamant about treating people with kindness and with love and with respect. And I saw that, yeah, all the time.

Youth Experience in the Church and Stake

John Dehlin [01:08:22] What was your experience with the youth program in the church, both on the ward level and at the stake level? Things like young women's youth activities. Mutual. I don't know what they called it.

Saane Siale [01:08:33] Yeah, mutual. It was called Mutual.

John Dehlin [01:08:34] And then also ward and stake dances and youth conferences and all that stuff.

Saane Siale [01:08:39] Oh, yeah,

John Dehlin [01:08:42] in seminary.

Saane Siale [01:08:43] Oh, yes. Yeah. Did seminary all four years.

John Dehlin [01:08:46] Was it just with your ward members or with your stake members? No, it was morning.

Saane Siale [01:08:50] It was early morning. So, yeah, I. I had what was called an A period. So that was like a 7am class. So seminary was like 5:36am for me. So I had seminary a bit earlier than, like, other people did that all four years. That was mostly with, not necessarily ward members, but with. With members within my high school, if that makes sense, because the high school that I went to was pretty far from the church that I went to. And so the. Yeah, so seminary was with. Was with ward members from a completely different stake, but they went to the same high school that I did attended with my brother. We were a year apart, so we were obviously always in school together because we were just a grade apart. I went to Mutual, so I was pretty active in terms of, like, attending various activities. Did girls camp every year.

John Dehlin [01:09:47] Absolutely. Girls camp, huh? How'd you like girls camp?

Saane Siale [01:09:50] Oh, I loved girls camp. I think something that girls camp gave me that, like, mutual and seminary activities didn't was just access and availability to different members of color. Again, I grew up around a heavily white membership. I was one of the very few members of color within my ward. And again, like I said, my family, we were the only Polynesian family and one of the few families of color in our ward. And so. And so there was always a feeling of, like, you know, the white membership kind of looked to us to kind of represent, like, all the other brown people in the world. Which was obviously not possible. Yeah, which is not possible. And so, yeah, I grew up around a very heavily white membership, but on the other side of that, also a very progressive white membership, I would say. And so that was also a two. Two part to how I grew up. And so, I mean, there were positive moments, but also really hard ones in terms of, like, it was. Honestly, growing up, it really made me really think about just the nuances and the. The layers of, like, being a woman of color, being Polynesian, being Pacific Islander, and what that meant. Like, for instance, when it came to the idea of dating in those conversations, growing up in young women's, I never felt like that applied to me because there was always the standard of beauty was attached to whiteness. And so that was really hard for me growing up around that environment, didn't there. There was a part where I was, like, really proud of this religion. But then there's Other part of, like, the authentic parts of me and who I am also wasn't really, truly accepted. And those are things that I try to reconcile growing up with, but was constantly clashing, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:11:57] Are you saying, I hope I'm not misunderstanding this. Are you saying that within Mormon culture, you didn't feel like, you didn't feel a sense of beauty associated with you?

Saane Siale [01:12:11] 100. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:12] And then that affected how you thought about yourself as it related to courtship and dating?

Saane Siale [01:12:17] Oh, yes. I mean, we think about it. When you think about young men's and young women's, we talk about marriage. Like, that was like something that we talked about so often. And so when I think about my upbringing in the church, and I don't know if this was your experience, Nate, but at least for me, growing up in the church and being as active as I was growing, marriage was such a focal point of, like, that's what we're working towards. Families, like, eternal families, like, you have to get there in order to have an eternal family. And even, like, I was 12 when my family was sealed in the Oakland temple. So I remembered my ceiling because obviously my dad had to annul his ceiling from his previous wife after he was obviously, you know, got married to my mom. And so that took a number of years, almost a decade before me and my family were able to go into the temple and get sealed. And so those things heavily influenced the ideas in my mind of, like, what was the, you know, most important goal. And so for me, seeing that and being bombarded with those messages, but then also being bombarded with the messages that I didn't fit the standards of beauty. People weren't asking me out on dates when I went to stake or wore dances. People weren't asking me to dance. They were asking the white girls to dance. Those are things that I noticed growing up. And again, that's a whole other conversation in terms of, like, race and standards of beauty and all those, all that jazz.

John Dehlin [01:13:43] Well, how did you make sense of that and how do you make sense of it now? Why wouldn't the white Mormon kids be asking you to dance as much as the white girls?

Saane Siale [01:13:53] I honestly, I mean, really comes down to, I mean, their exposure. I mean, again, like I said, I was around white membership pretty much for most of my Mormon experience. And so they were too. They didn't see people that looked like me a lot, even at. Even at the schools that I went to, majority white students. And so their standards of beauty were contingent upon who they were seeing, what media they had Access to and who they were seeing in media, which, again, mostly white people. And so, I mean, I think there's obviously systemic levels down to like, you know, the local levels of just different influences that affect their perception of. Of beauty and what that looked like and just lack of exposure, lack of proximity are probably all reasons that I would say that would attribute to it. How did I reconcile that?

John Dehlin [01:14:42] Because what you're saying is the white boys wouldn't ask you to dance as much as they would other white girls and the white Mormon boys wouldn't ask you out on dates? Is that what you're saying?

Saane Siale [01:14:52] Yes, for sure. 100%. Yeah. I experienced that at BYU as well. So, yes, that's definitely what I'm saying. I didn't know if you wanted me to clarify that.

John Dehlin [01:15:01] So you were about to say how that felt for you growing up in this warden stake?

Saane Siale [01:15:05] Yes, for sure. I mean, I think for a long time there was the idea in my head again, the same reason why people paired me with Jesus, this idea that I didn't really see myself in the context of marriage, because that didn't seem possible to me. I saw that being possible for other people. Even seeing young couples that were recently married that just graduated byu, that would come to my ward, I would see that often. And I didn't see myself in that. And so for me, it was just more. So I poured myself into education and maintain my focus on that and less about the idea of marriage. That's what got me through high school, is what I mean. That specific time period.

John Dehlin [01:15:54] Did it make you sad? Did you feel left out? Did you feel, I don't want to say ugly, because that sounds rude, but did it make you feel less attractive, less desired?

Saane Siale [01:16:05] For sure, 100%. And especially with my parents, they also had this idea that, you know, if. If you married a white man or if, you know, like, they attached, you know, success with whiteness.

John Dehlin [01:16:19] Your parents did?

Saane Siale [01:16:20] Yes, of course. Yeah. Same reason. You know, it goes back to, you know, why we went to a white ward. So my parents attached, you know, the two together. And so, yeah, they. They would try to set me up here and there. But again, with white boys, yes, by trying, they would bring up the name they didn't actually, like, hey, go ask out my daughter. That never happened. Thank goodness it didn't. But yeah, in terms of, like, how that felt, of course that felt sad. And I don't think I really processed it at the time. Like I said, I really tried to. I think what I tried to do in order to Cope with that was really just distract myself. But yeah, when I look back, I obviously have a lot of compassion and sadness for that version of myself because I just. I should have never felt that way in those environments, but I did. But I. But obviously now being much older, I look back and wish I didn't feel that way and wish that I, you know, not only accepted not only just how I physically looked, but also like my culture and what that came with and not degrade that because of, you know, other people's perception or. Or lack thereof, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:17:38] So being. I want to make sure. See if I understand. So, being raised by Tongan immigrant Mormon parents, are you saying you were raised with the feeling that the ideal for them would have been for you to wear. You would. Would have been for you to marry a white Mormon boy, slash return missionary?

Saane Siale [01:17:59] I would say part of that. I don't think he was like, necessarily the end all, be all like, goal that they had for me, but if it were to happen to them, it would mean, oh, she'll be set.

John Dehlin [01:18:11] Like, she would have arrived.

Saane Siale [01:18:13] Yes, exactly. But, yeah, I don't think it was more so like you have to marry a white person, but it was just more so like, if that were to happen, that would mean added success.

John Dehlin [01:18:23] Okay.

Saane Siale [01:18:23] To your life.

John Dehlin [01:18:24] Because what I'm also imagining is that, you know, Mormon, Tongan slash Samoans, slash Polynesians within the Bay Area would still know about lots of other families.

Saane Siale [01:18:37] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [01:18:38] And I could have imagined your parents saying, hey, there's this cute Tongan boy over in X ward, or the, the Polynesian steak and trying to set you up with either, preferably Tongan, if not Polynesian boys to date during your Mormon adolescence. But you're saying that wasn't a thing?

Saane Siale [01:18:58] No, that wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:18:58] Do you have a sense for why that wasn't a thing?

Saane Siale [01:19:01] I think a lot of it just has to do with, I guess, like the stereotypes that came to, you know, Tongan boys or I guess Polynesian boys just growing up that your parents held. Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, there's a few percentage of them that, that pursue higher education. Obviously, you know, they're, they're the few, you know, the stereotypes that come with like Polynesian boys. They're, they're. They'll either go into sports, football, rugby, basketball. And. Whereas my parents didn't really see that as like a ticket to success, some did. But again, like I said, my dad was very big about education. And so for him it was more so like, you need to be with someone who cares about education just as much as I do and just as much as you do. And that wasn't typical. That wasn't typical of a lot of Tongan boys growing up. Education wasn't at the forefront of what they wanted to do, what they were passionate about. And so my parents were just more so like, stray away from anyone that doesn't care about education.

John Dehlin [01:20:13] And what I'm hearing, and this is delicate stuff, and I appreciate your vulnerability. What I'm hearing you say is your parents were unique as Tongan immigrants the extent to which they valued education. Yes, but then there. There's a rub to that, which is to say that other Tongan slash Polynesian Mormon families didn't tend to value education like your parents.

Saane Siale [01:20:37] I would say so 100.

John Dehlin [01:20:39] Yeah, you make sense of. And I guess I. You wouldn't be able to represent other Tongan and Samoan, of course, Mormon families. But I would just say, why wouldn't they value education as much as your parents did?

Saane Siale [01:20:52] I mean, that's a great question. And again, that's not to say that there aren't families out there. There are plenty of families, Polynesian families, Pacific Islander families, that do and value education very much. I think, at least within the area that I grew up with and the families that I grew up around, a lot of their parents, it was a generational thing when it came to obviously, having grown up in poverty, they didn't have the time to go to school. They were worrying about making money and surviving and bringing back food for their families. So school wasn't a priority. It could have been had they had access to resources and financial stability. But because there was a lack of that, school just wasn't a priority. I mean, a lot of my aunts and uncles, at least for my dad and a mixture of my mom's side, that was their story. They dropped out of middle school to work full time to support their families. And so because of that, it kind of just, you know, now you have parents that barely have a middle school, high school education, and they're trying to get their kids to go to school. But then it's just like they don't know how to do that because they never had that experience themselves. And so there's obviously, you know, the financial instability that I would say is a huge reason as to why other families. It's not that they didn't want to value education. They just couldn't at some point. And that kind of generationally just trickled down into obviously younger generations. Whereas, like, with my dad. My dad was very fortunate. He grew up in poverty, but his uncle moved him to the capital, which is considered a more, you know, wealthier area, much more access to better education, better schools. And so my dad was very fortunate to have grown up in that area where my dad took advantage of education. And so. And obviously, you have people that, you know, maybe they don't care about school as well. That was also true for some of my family members. They didn't look at school as the only way to find success. So.

John Dehlin [01:22:56] And I guess this is why we need other Tongans and Samoans to come on Mormon stories, to tell story from their perspective, because this is their landmines in this conversation we're having. But I think it's important 100 appreciate it.

Saane Siale [01:23:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:08] Nate, I'm curious if any of what this conversation about education and belonging and race within a Mormon context, if there's any of this that's hitting, you know, hitting you in any way or that you're resonating with, if there's anything that kind of jumps out to you about Sonny's experience, it feels familiar or not familiar.

Nate Byrd [01:23:33] You know, when talking about the beauty standards and things like that, I was just kind of thinking about how it's interesting how my brain worked, because my, you know, growing up, I always had a pretty good idea of, like, my identity as far as being a black person. But as far as, like, what that meant, I wasn't necessarily there all the way. But when you talked about not getting asked to dance at stake dances, I just kind of made me think about how I used to, like, make it a point to ask, like, women of color to dance at those. You know, whenever I saw a black girl at a steak dance or whatever, I always, like, made it a point to go and ask her to dance. And I was kind of, like, thinking about, you know, why I did that.

Saane Siale [01:24:12] Yeah.

Nate Byrd [01:24:13] Because where I was mentally and, like, the things that I thought about, even though there was. There was a lot of conflict there with my identity, I still, like, always had the idea that I would be with a black woman. Like, that was always my. Like, you know, when we talked about marriage and things like that, it was always kind of like, well, I don't know when I'm gonna get married, but when I do, I know it'll be to a black woman, you know, So I was just kind of thinking about that in my head and, like, what. What triggered that particular idea?

Saane Siale [01:24:42] Yeah. That's so interesting.

Nate Byrd [01:24:43] I grew up in such an interesting environment. You know, it was like A very white environment, but that was just kind of always there. And I think that, you know, that had a lot to do with, like, my parents and the identity, the black identity that they put in me at a young age. But then also where I thought about everything else was I thought about it in a very white mindset. My religious beliefs, my political beliefs. A lot of that was shaped by the whiteness that I was surrounded with in the church. I've been thinking about that. It's kind of interesting,

John Dehlin [01:25:18] I mean, now going back to the Mormonism that I was raised with and that maybe Beau was raised with as well. I mean, if you go back into the 60s and 70s, it was taught that it was evil for races to mix, right? That. That you can go back to Brigham Young's time where he says that, like, there can be, you know, death. Like murder, you. You, death penalty is okay for someone who mixes the seed, who mixes the races. So, like, interracial marriage was, like, condemned in 19th century, 19th century, and early to mid 20th century Mormonism in a. In a very serious way. But then even more recently than that. What's. What's that?

Nate Byrd [01:26:06] I said even more recently than that, too. I remember listening to, like, some BYU devotionals, and it was much more coded, but I can't remember who it was. I want to say it was Elder Holland or maybe it was Elder Hinckley, but they said if you, you know, if you come from such and such background, you should marry somebody from such and such background. If you come from this background, you should marry someone from that background. And it didn't. It didn't say race, but it talked about religion and, like, socioeconomic status and stuff like that. It talked about, like, you stick, you know, the. Whoever it was that was saying that. They said it in a BYU devotional.

John Dehlin [01:26:35] Exactly.

Beau Oyler [01:26:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:36] Yeah. So I guess I'm trying to say there were times where it was, like, explicitly condemned as horrible to. For races to mix within Mormonism.

Saane Siale [01:26:47] Right.

John Dehlin [01:26:47] Prior to the 1980s and 90s. And then once the priesthood ban was lifted and Mormonism started to really come into the 21st century in terms of. Of. Of trying to not be super overtly racist. Even up until the past few years and probably even up until this year, you could still find quite a quotes or passages in Sunday Mormon Sunday school curriculum gently encouraging people to kind of stay within their cultural background, which is coded language for no interracial marriage. Right.

Saane Siale [01:27:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:27:24] And so it is interesting for me, Nate, to hear that your sense growing up was that you would end up with a black woman who was Mormon. But then for you, it was like. It was like marrying the white guy was going to be the pinnacle of your success.

Saane Siale [01:27:40] Yeah, I had no. Yeah, I had no really picture not. Not as strong as Nate's, that's for sure. On what that would look like. Because in my mind, I had both Tongan parents, Tongan dad and a Tongan mom. But I was never encouraged or really shown that I would marry Tongan man. That was never at the forefront. So it was kind of this weird, like, mystery question mark. I don't know what that looks like for me, really, growing up.

John Dehlin [01:28:11] And it sounds like you channeled that into. Into religiosity and academic excellence.

Saane Siale [01:28:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:28:19] And sort of just like, hibernated, that whole romantic dating sort of part of yourself.

Saane Siale [01:28:28] For sure. 100. Yeah, that was definitely something that I definitely like. You like, the word that you used did hibernate and did really put on the back burner. And again, for most of my upbringing into high school, it was just something that did not seem possible because it wasn't possible to me growing up. And so it became less important to me, I would say, and more about my own personal women empowerment and focusing on what it meant to be an activist growing up as a teenager. And, yeah, you know, having, you know, this religion on my sleeve and showing it, those became more important to me. And so, yeah, I definitely put that on the back burner and didn't try to not think about it, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:29:15] And as I'm thinking about, you know, teenage, you know, teenage Sonny, like, on the one hand, I'm like, that's great.

Nate Byrd [01:29:24] She's.

John Dehlin [01:29:24] She's not wasting her time with all this silliness. She's getting her education. She's becoming a social justice advocate and getting a great education. There's a part of me that's like, that sounds amazing. And then on the other hand, those teen years are really important developmental years to. To date, to court, to have boyfriends or girlfriends, to kiss or make out or like, you know, to have breakups and to learn what love. To start to learn what love is. And I guess that it sounds like that really wasn't available to you in what some would say is a very important developmental stage.

Saane Siale [01:30:03] Oh, yeah, for sure. It definitely wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:30:07] And there's probably a cost. There's probably a benefit to that and maybe a cost to that.

Saane Siale [01:30:10] Oh, for sure. Yeah, 100% there was a benefit to it. Exactly. Like you said, it helped me stay focused. I was focused on goals of mine Pursuing, you know, my dreams of, like, you know, accessing higher education. So, I mean, yeah, the. The. The pro of that was that it, you know, allowed me to be more focused. I didn't have distractions, quote, unquote. But obviously, on the other hand of that, you know, a con was obviously, I did lack that experience. I didn't. There's also, you know, the aspect of also, you know, a lack of self love that also affected me going into college, where dating became even more apparent, even more important.

John Dehlin [01:30:53] What do you mean, lack of self love? Talk about teen saunae. Like, lack of self love?

Saane Siale [01:30:58] Yes, Teen saunae, lack of self love.

John Dehlin [01:31:03] What's not to love?

Saane Siale [01:31:05] I think when I go back to that time, my mindset was really just truthfully that I wasn't worthy of marriage, that I wasn't worthy of that kind of love, because people didn't show me or at least teach me that I was, quite honestly. And I think a lot of that just had to do with my level of proximity to, again, white membership and people that didn't look like me. I didn't have access to people that looked like me and that. That were dating or that did get married or did have children. I didn't see that other than within my own cocoon of my family. And even that was hard because they were more so. Oh, yeah, you don't need to worry about that. That'll come in time. But again, it was just very. Lots of mixed messages. But before I go on, Nate, did you have a thought? I wasn't sure.

Nate Byrd [01:32:06] Yeah, I was gonna ask, do you think that for a lot of people who immigrate to the United States who are members of the church, that whiteness is kind of the standard, and that probably makes a difference in how you grew up. You know what I mean? I feel like. I think about my situation, it was kind of unique. But when I think about a lot of the other black people that I know who are members of the church, most of them are immigrants, right?

Saane Siale [01:32:34] Yes.

Nate Byrd [01:32:35] And for them, a lot of times, whiteness is the standard. So, like, they'll. They'll immigrate to the United States, and then the goal is to, like, become as close to, like, that white ideal as possible. So it's like, seek out education at, you know, in the best places to live in the whitest neighborhoods, to marry a white person, and just kind of, like, have that process. Proximity to whiteness. I feel like that kind of becomes the standard for sure.

Saane Siale [01:33:00] That's a great question. And I think you put it perfectly in that sense where, yeah, it really was attributing it back to whiteness. And you'll see that I've seen that myself across many immigrant Polynesian families, Pacific Islander families, kind of this, like you said, this end goal of, you know, success and getting close to whiteness. So, yeah, for sure. That definitely affected my experience in the way that I viewed myself. But it's weird because, I mean, like, it's this weird thing where it's just like my parents were also. It's like they picked. They picked and chose when they were really proud to be Tongan. And then also different times where they. Not that they wish that they were white, but, you know, they attributed whiteness as was higher than being Tongan. So it was kind of this mix of like, I'm proud to be Tongan, but also go white people. Like, you know. And so for me growing up, it was very much like, but I'm proud to be Tongan. I. I'm glad that I'm not white. Like, like, that was my. My own personal ideology. Growing up. I was proud to be Tongan. And so it was weird seeing, you know, my parents kind of shift back and forth between, you know, this ideal of like, you know, white nationalism or whiteness and success and prosperity or whatnot, because I didn't agree with that. Growing up, I was always proud to be Tongan and I didn't want to be anything else. It was just more. So why does this feel inferior sometimes when it shouldn't or less than.

Beau Oyler [01:34:41] I know, Sunny, I don't know what that experience is like, but I do see how in some ways this idea of, like, seeing the leaders and the most educated or the well off people, that they were white, that they're on the stand there is this thing, right? Like last Sunday we went to a Sudanese ward in Salt Lake and I was really excited to go. My daughter was singing in the ward, and so we were guests there. And, you know, seeing families of Sudanese, you know, nationality, like, coming into church in their gorgeous dresses and, like, it was so cool. And then we sat there and we stayed for sacrament meeting and for testimony meeting. Not one Sudanese person is in leadership. Okay, yeah, one Sudanese person gave their testimony. All the rest were imports. They were people with more experience, I would imagine. White people, a Polynesian person, a Latino person, but not Sudanese people. And I just found that interesting. And I've seen that in other, you know, especially on my mission, serving in Latin, Latin communities, Latino communities, where a new branch would start or a new ward would Start and they would import a bishop to come in, essentially show them how to do it.

Saane Siale [01:36:07] Right, right.

Beau Oyler [01:36:08] The leadership. Yeah. And it feels kind of like babysitting. And then similar with what senior missionaries are doing now, where a lot of senior missionaries are getting called, not necessarily on proselytizing missions, but more leadership missions.

Nate Byrd [01:36:20] Right.

Beau Oyler [01:36:20] Where they're going to certain areas, certain wards, and showing them how to do things. Right. And so I think that even though you are proud of your Tongan heritage and should be, there's also this subliminal, like, why is it right. Like, the first Polynesian General Authority was like, ten years ago.

Saane Siale [01:36:38] Exactly.

Beau Oyler [01:36:38] Right. So when you look up on the stand and you don't see yourself represented, I would imagine that there's somewhat of a disconnect there on kind of who you see yourself as, the goals that are being set, as aspirations. What do you do with that?

Saane Siale [01:36:52] Exactly. Yeah. No, yeah, I appreciate that because that's exactly. I mean. Yeah. Just looking up at the stand, even my young woman leaders, being white women, that didn't help me find standards of beauty within myself because, again, there's just that lack of representation. And also, my mom worked full time. She didn't come to church with us. And so I just lacked that female and womanhood presence. And being a woman of color, that just was not a part of my experience growing up lds.

John Dehlin [01:37:28] So that makes me want to ask, like, if the Mormon Church has this long multi generational history with. With Polynesia and with Tonga and Samoa specifically, you would think then that the church would have had area and general authorities from Tongan Samoa for many, many decades.

Saane Siale [01:37:51] Yeah, you would think.

John Dehlin [01:37:52] And that's not. That's not what happened.

Saane Siale [01:37:54] No, that's not the case at all.

John Dehlin [01:37:55] So the first. First Polynesian Area General Authority was when

Saane Siale [01:38:01] and who general authority. I. I can't remember his name. I have his face in my.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] Would have been 10 years ago.

Saane Siale [01:38:09] Yeah, about that time.

Beau Oyler [01:38:11] Yeah, that's what. That's what I remember. It was about 10 years ago. And I believe he was Hawaiian. I'll. I'll look him up.

John Dehlin [01:38:17] Okay. Y. First would have been in 2013.

Saane Siale [01:38:21] Yeah, 20. 23. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:23] Okay. Okay. So not. You're not seeing. Not only are you not seeing young women or young men leaders in your ward who represented you not in your bishopric and then not at the leadership levels of the church either.

Saane Siale [01:38:40] Oh, yeah. No, absolutely not. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:42] Yeah.

Saane Siale [01:38:43] Very white, as we all know.

John Dehlin [01:38:45] Was your dad ever called in the bishopric while you were growing up?

Saane Siale [01:38:48] Up? No.

John Dehlin [01:38:49] Okay.

Saane Siale [01:38:50] No, he. Yeah. Was not Always talked about wanting to serve in a higher position, but was never called.

John Dehlin [01:38:59] Yeah. And I guess, well, you can speak about how her family was perceived within the war, possibly.

Beau Oyler [01:39:09] Yeah, absolutely. So two sides to that. We absolutely love the Ciali family. Like, every baptism we ever had, every convert baptism, we always wanted them to sing, always wanted them to perform, always wanted them to be part of that. They brought this very special spirit to our meetings. And I can never remember once, even it crossing my mind that there was any kind of like, oh, we want to bring in more culture or non white people into this. It literally never crossed my mind. But also it never crossed my mind to call Brother Ciali as a counselor during my five years. And why is that? And I think that's a good question for me to ask. And I don't know why he is a bit of a live wire.

Saane Siale [01:39:54] Yeah.

Beau Oyler [01:39:55] Okay. Now that I think about it, when you're teaching Sunday school or high priest or elders quorum or whatever, and Brother Ciali always sits on the back. Right. And this is what Brother Ciali looks like. Right. The whole time until you call on him, he's raising his hand to make a comment that generally goes five to 10 minutes. And so, you know.

Saane Siale [01:40:18] Yeah, sounds like my dad.

Beau Oyler [01:40:19] And very opinionated and oftentimes very right wing.

Saane Siale [01:40:24] Yes.

Beau Oyler [01:40:24] Which was appreciated by some people in our ward and not appreciated by some

Saane Siale [01:40:29] people, which I totally get.

Beau Oyler [01:40:30] And so I think that, yeah, this conversation is just so good to have, because even people like me, who I very much felt like one of my roles as bishop was to be a progressive bishop. Right. Like radical inclusivity. I never even asked myself these questions in that position.

Saane Siale [01:40:50] Right.

Beau Oyler [01:40:51] And why, you know, these kind of conversations are so important to have is because, you know, allows us to ask ourselves these questions and look at these things.

John Dehlin [01:41:05] Yeah. So I'm. I'm thinking about teenage Sonny now. And on the one hand, you're proud of your Tongan heritage, You love your parents dearly.

Saane Siale [01:41:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:41:15] And. And you love yourself. And you're raised with this idea that whiteness somehow is the best and that somehow courtship and even marriage, you're not seeing how you fit into that, for sure. And. And yet you're not really taught about, and it's not really overtly discussed the priesthood ban, the dark skin curse in the Book of Mormon and how Mormonism has this multicensory legacy of racism. Right.

Saane Siale [01:41:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:41:50] So you're experiencing that racism, but it's never talked about explicitly in the history, is never really acknowledged.

Saane Siale [01:41:58] Yes. 100%.

John Dehlin [01:41:59] That's mind blowing to me.

Saane Siale [01:42:01] Me too. Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, it is. It is mind blowing because that's where a little bit of the betrayal comes in. I use the word portrayal intentionally because it was like I said mentioned previously, it wasn't until my mission that I actually studied the priesthood ban. And I remember just feeling like, so blindsided, like, here I am, I'm already on the mission, I'm already out in the field, and I'm supposed to be this representative of Christ, and yet there's this ugly history that I am just now coming to learn about. And now I'm supposed to be here and bring people into this church with this history that I'm just now learning about and finding out. Oh, that was a huge clash for me during that time because it made me rethink everything. It made me go back to my upbringing. And one of my. Some of my closest friends from high school are black, but not lds. But not LDS for sure. But they always admired my example to them of a Mormon of somebody that was LDS because I was so welcoming and open to people of different races of different ethnic backgrounds. And so to think that people, leaders from this religion and church did not accept and if anything were demeaning, degrading and racist, plain out racist was just very. I couldn't make sense of it at the time. It was so much to process. And I remember bringing it up with, you know, a sister training leader at the time on my mission, and she told me to never bring it up again. She didn't even answer the question that I asked her. She just told me to not bring it up. And not.

John Dehlin [01:44:02] What'd you ask?

Saane Siale [01:44:03] I just asked her, like, had she, like, did she know about this? Did she about the priesthood ban? The priesthood ban. So black people in the priesthood. And she was white. She was white. Okay, yes, she was white. She was from Utah. And yeah, she told me to never bring it up again. And if anything, she made me feel like I was dumb for asking. I felt dumb for asking. I felt ashamed for even bringing it up. But then there was that fire within me where it's just like, why are we not talking about this? And I remember there was. We had this huge meeting on my mission and somebody had brought up, how do we answer when people say that our church is racist? And I don't even remember what my mission president said or what was shared or the advice or counsel that was given, but it just brought me back to see, this is why we need to talk about this. Because I don't blame People for seeing this church as racist. That was my thinking at the time during my mission. And so, yeah, lots of things, lots of things there.

High School, Activism, and Social Justice in Oakland

John Dehlin [01:45:12] So rewinding to. Let's just say yes, you're graduating high school.

Saane Siale [01:45:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:17] Like I think about your parents and they want the best education and the, the, the healthiest outcome for you as one of their kids.

Saane Siale [01:45:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:29] And I'm imagining they're checking the box of like we chose to bring our family to a white ward in Oakland and to have our kids be raised amongst white people religiously and educationally.

Saane Siale [01:45:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:46] For the most part.

Saane Siale [01:45:46] For the most part.

John Dehlin [01:45:47] And by the time you're graduating, I'm guessing that from your parents perspective they're checking all the boxes.

Saane Siale [01:45:55] Yes, you did.

John Dehlin [01:45:56] Did you do well in high school?

Saane Siale [01:45:57] Yes, I did. Yeah. I graduated with a 4.4.0. So for them it was like the Holy Grail. Like I did it all and now I'm gonna continue my path at byu. So obviously I had gotten accepted into byu, so they already knew that that was like my next chapter post graduation of high school.

John Dehlin [01:46:17] So like not only no teen pregnancy for sane. From your parents perspective.

Saane Siale [01:46:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:21] Nope. But did super. Well, didn't even have to worry about her getting in trouble with boys. No perspective.

Saane Siale [01:46:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:29] Did super got straight A's. So like close to valedictorian maybe or

Saane Siale [01:46:33] in your, I mean, I, I wouldn't say close. I mean, yeah, I mean I did well in school. I, I, I, Yeah, I had straight A's throughout high school. So that was never an issue academically.

John Dehlin [01:46:43] But got into byu.

Saane Siale [01:46:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:45] Huge accomplishment.

Saane Siale [01:46:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:47] From your parents perspective.

Saane Siale [01:46:48] Oh yeah. For sure.

John Dehlin [01:46:50] And did you get a scholarship to be.

Saane Siale [01:46:51] Yes. So yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:52] So I mean that's like your, for your parents perspective, that's like straight A's. They're super proud and happy about the decisions they made.

Saane Siale [01:47:01] For sure. 100%.

John Dehlin [01:47:02] And it all turned out that turns out well, that those decisions.

Saane Siale [01:47:08] Right. It almost proved to them that this is why we did these, this is why we did these things for you is to you now you've made it. And this is why it's almost like

John Dehlin [01:47:17] the gospel is true. Because look at how well San is done. Right?

Saane Siale [01:47:22] Yeah, 100%.

John Dehlin [01:47:23] The Mormonism's true. We raised San Mormon and even as white Mormon as we could. And look how well she's doing for sure.

Saane Siale [01:47:32] Oh yeah. That was definitely kind of like their own pats on the back. Like we, we did well as parents. And, and obviously I'll never deny that they, they did do well to the best of their abilities. It's interesting. At the same time, there's so much that my parents are so unaware of that they kind of just expected me to do well. But like, the work that it took to get there was a lot. Like, even when it came to applying for scholarships, applying for school, those are things that, I mean, I'm also first. First gen, so first generation college student and college graduate. So that whole entire process I was doing by myself. Obviously I had the, you know, the verbal, emotional support from my parents, but the logistics of what that looked like, that path was very lonely. For you, for sure. Yeah. For me, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:25] Why was that lonely?

Saane Siale [01:48:27] Just more so. The added pressure of, like, you'll do this A, B, C, D. And for me it's just like, well, where do I even start? Where do I go? Who do I ask for help? I've. I'm the old. And I also, I was the oldest. I was the oldest child. And so I was kind of the guinea pig in a lot of my experiences.

John Dehlin [01:48:43] Your parents were like, here's how to play to byu. That wasn't a conversation.

Saane Siale [01:48:47] No, no, no. They weren't even a part of that process, that application process. I attended a program called soar, which stands for Summer of Academic Refinement. It is a program for juniors in high school. It's run by the Multicultural Student Services office at byu. And so they kind of recruit for students of color to come to this. It's like a ACT prep camp kind of thing. But also you kind of get to do fun activities with other LDS members of color from different parts of the states. I attended that my junior year of high school. And so I was about 14, I would say 14, 15. And so that was my first introduction to BYU. I took the act there, did pretty well established relationships with people that work at BYU that were people of color. It was kind of like my first introduction to, wow, I'm in a room full of brown people that are also lds. I never had that experience previous to that. And so that was my introduction to byu. And yeah, that whole process of applying and whatnot was something that I did on my own.

John Dehlin [01:50:01] And so I guess I'm trying to balance as I'm trying to understand your upbringing. You were raised as white and as white Mormon as your parents, as Tongan immigrants could possibly raise you. And I guess there's a duality there of like self loathing and racism that you experienced and, I don't know, cultural imperialism. I don't know exactly how to characterize the negatives yeah.

Saane Siale [01:50:29] There's layers to it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:31] But then there's all the positives of, like, you. You had an amazing outcome in terms of you not just going to college as the first in your generation, family to go to college, but on scholarship.

Saane Siale [01:50:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:49] So there's this duality of negatives and positives that I'm trying to struggle with, and then say, which is it more positive or more negative? It seems more positive. Like, how many of those other Tongan or Samoan families growing up in the Bay Area would have wanted the outcome that your parents were able to achieve by raising you as white and as Mormon as possible?

Saane Siale [01:51:14] Yeah, great question. I mean. I mean, I think about, like, my educational career path, and I think of, you know, other Tongans, people from back home. I can't think of. I can't think of a lot of other people, honestly, from my. From my upbringing, from my community, my Tongan community. I'm one of the very few from where I come from that, you know, is. That has a degree that is pursuing higher education. Yeah, there's just. Obviously just a lack of representation overall. And, yeah, there definitely is a duality. There is, you know, the positive and the negatives. That's something that I kind of wrestle with back and forth because there are. There are parts of me where I wish I did grow up around more Tongan people. I wish I would have experienced what it would have felt like to go to church and see a room full of people that looks like me. There are parts of me that wish that I did have that experience, but didn't. And so, again, there's kind of like this grief for what it would have looked like to be surrounded by my culture and have that be at the forefront of what success looks like and not necessarily attributing it back to whiteness, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:52:33] Yeah. Yeah, it does, John.

Beau Oyler [01:52:35] I will add to this my perspective on watching the Ciali family raise their kids the way that they did. So brother and sister Ciali are amazing people. Like, they really are just really big personality amazing people. Like, everybody loves them. And the idea that that Sunny was raised in the town, that she was in a predominantly white area, white ward, white school. I'm sure that that had an effect. Okay. But I do also want to flag that Sunny really was an adult from age 12 on, raising her siblings. Okay. Her mom worked full time in home care, so nights, weekends, days, and her dad was in his 70s. Sunny was essentially the caretaker of her three younger siblings throughout her entire growing up years, especially in the High school years, and then you go to church on Sunday and their son is Laurel, class president or whatever. And simultaneously on the COVID of the Oakland Tribune as an activist marching in the streets, her and her sister. Right. Marching in the streets for civil liberties. And so this world of dualities, like, yes, I'm sure there was influence in them raising their family where they did, but also, yes, it was sunny. And her role as a leader from a very young age is, I think, also part of the reason that you have become who you've become. 100% educated, powerful voice, like these attributes that are you. You've kind of always been that way.

Saane Siale [01:54:15] Yes, I have. Yeah.

Beau Oyler [01:54:16] Just you and yourself. Like, you are that person.

Saane Siale [01:54:19] Thank you.

Beau Oyler [01:54:20] And so it's. I don't know. I don't want to attribute so much to the area that she was raised in. I know that was very influential. But also just you are who you are and always have been that way.

Saane Siale [01:54:35] 100%. Yeah. And again, like I said, I mentioned, my closest friendships were not white people. My closest friendships were people from different ethnic, racial backgrounds, different sexualities, different gender. Like, one of my first experience with trans people was a friend in high school. I was exposed to so many different communities, but that never shook my identity as a member at the time. At the time, because I was so open and welcoming to the idea of people from all different walks of life. And like you said, that was something that I always led with being the oldest and wanting to be that example. And I wanted to show people that you can do both, as I had hoped during that time, obviously, that you can be this activist and actually care about human rights and civil rights and also believe in Christ. Yeah. So thank you for sharing that.

John Dehlin [01:55:42] Yeah. So what were you doing social justice wise, in high school on top of raising, helping to raise your three other siblings and being a devout Mormon girl and becoming the equivalent of almost a valedictorian. How is social justice even. How did you have time for social justice? And what?

Saane Siale [01:55:59] Oh, I made time. I made time for that talk about

John Dehlin [01:56:04] how you would even have time and why.

Saane Siale [01:56:07] Again, it goes back to me in my history class, my US history class, and studying the civil rights movement and being exposed to people like Malcolm X, Martin Luther King Jr. Coretta Scott King, the Black Panther movement. So many people. Angela Davis. Those were names that I knew from a very young age.

John Dehlin [01:56:31] From high school history classes.

Saane Siale [01:56:33] Yeah. Middle school. High school, Yeah. I had an amazing history teacher. She was actually queer herself, and she was very open about that. And she even spent a whole Week on curriculum of Native American and indigenous people. And so I'm really grateful for those teachers that really cared to talk about history that.

John Dehlin [01:56:58] Do you want to say her name? The teacher that was particularly.

Saane Siale [01:57:00] Yeah, Ms. Leahy.

Nate Byrd [01:57:01] Okay.

Saane Siale [01:57:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:02] And what grade was that?

Saane Siale [01:57:03] This was. Oh, I don't even remember. Ninth grade. Ninth or tenth. In high school, at least.

John Dehlin [01:57:10] Talk. Just talk. Just briefly about. You're. You're reading, you're taking these classes or you're. Or you're reading these textbooks or whatever.

Saane Siale [01:57:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:19] What's occurring to you? You're like, oh, my gosh. What about our history?

Saane Siale [01:57:25] Yes, I really think that was integral to my experience because it opened my eyes to US History, like, American history in general.

John Dehlin [01:57:34] Discovering what. When you start reading it, that. What?

Saane Siale [01:57:36] Oh, just. I mean, the ugly past that we have and still have and how that's affected us today. I mean, again, in Tongan culture, we have this. This mindset where, you know, we. We honor those that came before us and those who came today and create a path for those to come. That's a huge central part of being Polynesian, of being Tongan, is honoring those before here today and then those to come, making a path for those to come. And I bring that up because that's how I viewed history. That's how I viewed US History. What happened before us, what happened before me. And so for me, you know, I looked. Obviously, I'm not related to, you know, black people from the civil rights movement, but I looked to them as like my ancestors before me who paved a path for a person of color like me today. And for me, I had this mindset of, like, what am I doing for those to come after me in the future?

John Dehlin [01:58:41] So you mentioned Coretta Scott King or Rosa Parks. Maybe you didn't mention her. Martin Luther King, Jr. Yeah, I mentioned Malcolm X. Yeah.

Saane Siale [01:58:49] Angela Davis.

John Dehlin [01:58:50] I don't know if. If Julio Cesar Chavez was part of that.

Saane Siale [01:58:55] Yeah, for sure. Cesar Chavez. Yeah. The Chicano movement, for sure. All of those things.

John Dehlin [01:58:59] And how did. As a. As a teen, how did you connect to them in terms of what they did for you?

Saane Siale [01:59:05] Yeah, how I connected to them. Well, for one, it was really just empathizing with what they were fighting for, understanding how unjust it was that the racism. The racism that they experienced, the segregation, the lynching, just the brutality of what the enslavement of Africans did and the legacy that left for black Americans today, all of that. But in my mind, it was seeing this bigger picture of, like, here I was growing up in my Tongan Home and my dad talking about this American dream. But for me, I'm looking at US History with this wider lens and thinking to myself, where is the American dream in this? Those were the questions that I was asking myself and posing to myself at that time and, and being exposed to that. For me, it made me want to learn more. It made me want to understand, like, why did we allow this to happen? Why was this considered okay and legal or whatever word you want to use? Why was this morally okay for people to commit these acts of whether it was sexual violence, physical violence, all of that A through Z, Why was that? Why did that happen? The same way that I look at the Holocaust, why did these things happen? How did it get to that point? Those are things that kind of drew me to understanding all of these different movements and really connect that to why am I now allowed to go to school where it's majority white people at some point? That would have never been allowed. So those were the kinds of connections.

John Dehlin [02:00:54] Because of segregation.

Saane Siale [02:00:55] Exactly. Because of racial segregation. And so those are the connections that I was making that there is a reason why things are the way that they are right now. That was the constant connection that I was consistently making with myself while also understanding this background and this history. And I didn't want to view it from a lens of the white man or the white person. I wanted to hear from people themselves, people that experience these atrocities themselves. And so that's what led me to studying more and listening to more and reading books by, you know, these different activists, different leaders.

John Dehlin [02:01:38] So you felt sad and, or outraged at the, the way people of color and specifically African Americans have been treated in American history?

Saane Siale [02:01:46] Of course, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:47] But also you felt gratitude for the civil rights leaders in the United States that had paved the way to, to allow you to have maybe a better experience.

Saane Siale [02:01:56] Exactly. 100%. There was a sense of anger and frustration that, that, that was even like, fathomable. It's still unfathomable to me. But the fact that that happened was there's so much anger and that I was processing as a teenager, but also so, so much admiration that how people fought back and how, you know, African Americans did, you know, stand up. And I admired that. I was so inspired by that. And I would say the same for, you know, different communities. Like, I think about the Chicano movement and also, you know, the Latin American history, and also, I think of Native Americans and indigenous people and also Native Hawaiians and what they experience, which is a history that is often not talked about and not well known. And so all of those things were things that I was learning about and kind of absorbing and really thinking to myself, like, you know, where do I want to be in terms of history? And so, yeah, that's what influenced really, that kind of period of my life in terms of activism. Even within my high school, there was actually a proposition that was trying to be passed to actually, basically what it meant is that it would segregate students that came from lower socioeconomic families away from students that came from higher socioeconomic families. There was a parent group, and they felt adamantly about how their children couldn't learn in the best way with students that came from these kinds of lower socioeconomic backgrounds, which is obviously outrageous. But that was a legitimate thing that was trying to be passed. And my sister and I came together with different teachers at the time who also disagreed with that. My dad was the last person to speak at the final council meeting. That was when they were gonna vote to pass it or not after my dad spoke. And he basically bore testimony and bore testimony of his story of why he came to America. And it's crazy, because an hour after that public council meeting, the board of members unanimously voted against it. And so, thankfully, it didn't pass. But that was a legitimate thing that my family was a part of in trying to fight against.

Nate Byrd [02:04:21] And again, it was even up for consideration.

Saane Siale [02:04:24] Exactly, exactly. And it's crazy because you think about, like, that would have meant students like me, my siblings, if that had passed, we wouldn't have been able to attend that school anymore. And solely for the fact that my parents don't meet a certain income bracket, that's crazy. But that was. That was people's legitimate thinking that we would learn better separated. And so obviously, it didn't pass, thankfully. But again, this was. This was back in 2016, 2017. My sister and my brother was still in high school at the time. I had already graduated by the time I graduated in 2015. But, yeah, huge, again, huge example of what that looked like. Me making time for activism because I experienced it. This was something real that would have affected my educational experience had that passed and had that been put into effect really quickly.

John Dehlin [02:05:24] I remember being raised in Texas a few decades before. You feeling okay to respect Martin Luther King Jr. Even though parts of my Mormonism were. Were still telling me that he was a bad actor. But I also remember being taught that the Black Panthers were bad and the. Martin Luther King Jr. No, sorry. That Malcolm X was bad. So Black Panthers. Martin, let me start over. Black Panthers and Malcolm X bad. Martin Luther King, Jr. Good from a secular perspective, but questionable from a Mormon perspective. How was it for you?

Saane Siale [02:06:01] They were all good to me. I never.

John Dehlin [02:06:03] By your teachers.

Saane Siale [02:06:07] I wouldn't necessarily say like my teachers, but just for me, it's so crazy because, like, I didn't grow up with that Mormonism history or where, you know, where they're pitting, you know, Malcolm X as the devil and Martin Luther King as the angel against each other. I never grew up with that understanding. I viewed all of them, I revered all of them with sacred respect for what they did.

John Dehlin [02:06:32] Including the Black Panthers.

Saane Siale [02:06:33] Including the Black Panthers.

John Dehlin [02:06:34] Explain that. Because from white America, they were violent.

Nate Byrd [02:06:38] You know what I mean? It made a difference, like, being where they were from, too. I think that made a difference as well.

Saane Siale [02:06:43] Yeah. Being from the East Bay, being from Oakland Bay area, I was very aware of issues at the time. Police brutality, also 2015, like, around that time. That's when Black Lives Matter was gaining momentum. And again, I also had really close black friendships who were vulnerable with me about their experiences, where one experience in particular is driving with my friend who happens to be black. And there was a police car that had driven by, and she froze. She froze in her passenger seat, and she was so scared. And I remember thinking, like, wow, just the presence of police instills fear in you. And I remember having a very vulnerable and deep conversation with her. And again, just things like that in my life, being exposed to that, it opened my eyes to this grander perspective outside of whiteness. It allowed me to see white supremacy and white nationalism and racism for what it was. There was no hiding it, no confusing it. Like, I saw it for what it was, and that made me angry, that frustrated me. And so I just feel like from a young age, yeah, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, there was no comparing. It was just like, obviously they handled things differently. But, I mean, I've read excerpts where Martin Luther King understood why Malcolm X handled the things that he did. I read excerpts where he talked about riots, and it's the language of the people that feel unheard. Those were things that I chose to see and understand. And even the Black Panther movement, I never saw that as violent. I saw it as people protecting themselves and standing up for themselves. And it's ironic that that was the ideology from Mormonism, because for me, what was violent to me was the enslavement of millions of African people. You know what I mean? That was what was violent to me. The violence that I saw were the injustices, were the discrepancies, were the Blatant brutality of racism, the lynchings of so many people, the massacre of native American indigenous people, people, even native Hawaiians. Like, the erasure of, like, all these cultures and people. That was the violence that I saw, not by these leaders.

John Dehlin [02:09:20] So in the past few years, this whole public controversy around critical race theory has emerged about what type of curriculum should middle schoolers and elementary schoolers and even high schoolers receive. You know, it sounds like the education you received around race, which I think you view as overwhelmingly positive, played a really important formative role in you understanding yourself. But also the historical context that, for good or for bad, led to the experience that you had growing up. All of that seems like it was positive. And yet, just in the past few years, there's been this really, I think, unfortunate but public conversation about what. What about race should be taught to kids in K through 12. But it sounds like. Would you say you were raised with the critical race theory kind of curriculum or not?

Saane Siale [02:10:21] For sure.

John Dehlin [02:10:22] And was that positive?

Saane Siale [02:10:24] Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say it was all positive. I think I had much more positive experiences than most, even most kids today, which is obviously really sad to say. It makes me sad thinking that we're raising younger generations who will have no idea of the history and what we have yet to atone and repent for. That makes me sad and angry. But at least speaking from my experience, I definitely had, I think, a pause, positive education experience when it came to talking about race. Was it all perfect? No. But it at least gave me kind of the stepping stones where I filled the gaps myself. I didn't stop just in the classroom. I went beyond that. And I would also say I'm also just a natural student, a natural learner. And so I'm grateful to my high school teacher, Ms. Leahy, my US history, even in middle school, I'm grateful for those. Those kinds of stepping stones because it allowed me to open the door to really learning more about those different aspects of U. S. History.

John Dehlin [02:11:32] Okay. And what types of activism would have led you on the COVID of what newspaper?

Beau Oyler [02:11:37] What was it? I remember seeing you and.

Saane Siale [02:11:39] Yeah, yeah, Bay area San Francisco chronicles.

Beau Oyler [02:11:46] And my wife's first comment, she's like, oh, my gosh, this is awesome. I wonder if her parents realize.

Saane Siale [02:11:51] No, I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:11:53] You didn't mention any. And I think there's probably humility to your recounting of your own story because you told us nothing about any activities that would have led to you being on the COVID of major newspapers. So what was going on

Saane Siale [02:12:11] really, it was the Black Lives Matter movement. So protests against police brutality. If you understand, like, the history of Oakland, it was one of the major cities that African Americans from the south migrated to. They left the south and going west. And Oakland just happened to be one of those pockets with a huge presence of the African American community. And so with that obviously comes with the racist history, still to this day, a racist history. And obviously, you know, there's different layers to it, but really it came down to Black Lives Matter movement, organizing protests, where, I mean, my focus at the time was getting youth to be involved, getting youth to, because they had voices as well. I mean, for myself, hearing the stories of like, my black friends, different experiences, even seeing, like, I even saw my dad. I remember multiple occasions my dad would be pulled over for broken tail lights and outdated registration, which were never true. And so again, you know, experiencing racial profiling and seeing my dad experiencing that and my dad and people being surprised how good my, in my dad's English was. And, and that was something that, you know, my dad, subconsciously, I don't think he realized, but he would read the dictionary, he would practice his English, so much so, so that when people would talk to him, they wouldn't look down on him for having bad English or not being able to speak, you know, the language. So all those aspects, I bring those up to kind of like illustrate really just about being involved. I never saw it as a way like, oh, I have to wait to be an adult, to be an advocate now I can be an advocate right now. And that was always my mindset growing up.

Beau Oyler [02:14:09] When you were young, and this is an honest question. When you were young. So you have 2008, Prop 8, right?

Saane Siale [02:14:15] Yeah.

Beau Oyler [02:14:15] A little kid. You've got 2009 Oscar Grant on BART.

Saane Siale [02:14:19] Yes.

Beau Oyler [02:14:20] Right. Which really in the Bay Area, like very much kicked off. Yep, I, I, his even saying that. Right. But like, brought a lot of attention to black lives. What influence did that have? 2008, 2009 for you?

Saane Siale [02:14:34] That's a great question. I think it just made me think again with the Prop 8 and realizing like, what that was actually talking about. And I remember the feeling of like, I never want to be blindsided, whether it be by religion, whether it be by white people, or whether it be by, you know, outside influences. I want to know for myself what this means and what that means for marginalized communities. And like I said, seeing visibly like police brutality and the presence of police, that wasn't a comforting thing to me growing up. That was a very scary thing. I also had cousins that were involved in gangs. So I had experiences with, with what gang violence looked like in Oakland area, also in LA area. But also the history behind that. There's just so much of my understanding and really learning that I really wanted to be on the right side. That was just my mindset at the time, constantly was just like when I think about history books and where I am in history, I want my future, whoever, whoever it is, for those to come to see that. I stood up. I, as a Pacific Islander, Polynesian, Tongan woman, I stood up for Black Lives Matter. I stood up against, I stood up for anti racism, all these things that was very important to me growing up. And again, this was heavily tied to my idea of Christ. And Christ being this perfect example of being all inclusive, fighting for equity and justice and all of that. That's who I viewed Christ as growing up. And so that was a huge motivator. My religion meant being out in the streets protesting. That's what my religion pushed me. That's what that made sense to me was I'm standing up, I'm flipping tables, as some people say. That was what that meant to me. So again, a huge part of that was again my upbringing, being LDS and thinking about Christ. And his example to me was really at the forefront of being involved in different protests and demonstrations across the Bay Area.

John Dehlin [02:17:01] Growing up, and this is going to sound like a dumb question, but you did not identify as, as, as black or as African American?

Saane Siale [02:17:08] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [02:17:10] But you, but you just felt as an American, as a Mormon, as a Christian and even as a, as a Tongan.

Saane Siale [02:17:20] Yeah, as a Tongan American,

John Dehlin [02:17:23] you felt some sort of connection with the African American experience and a desire to become an advocate for Black lives matter?

Saane Siale [02:17:32] Yes, 100%, for sure. And also in Oakland. Yes, in Oakland. And also like I mentioned, like the Polynesian Panther movement within New Zealand and also the Native Hawaiian history. Like those were, I saw, I saw Pacific Islanders within the civil rights movement. I saw myself in, in, you know, fighting for human rights and fighting for civil rights. I saw myself in that history. And so for me it was a no brainer in being a part of that. And if anything, I didn't see anybody else doing it. So for me it was just like, I'm gonna do it, I'm not gonna wait for somebody else. And that was always my dad's mentality too. Like, my dad was the first right to be baptized, was the first you come to America. And for him it was just like, I'm not Gonna wait for somebody else to show me how to do it. I'm gonna do it myself. So that was something that he instilled in me growing up, and I used to that and applied it to this. I don't think he meant it for that. He definitely didn't raise me to. I don't think he had the intentions of me, you know, with a blowhorn and organizing protests and being on news channels. I don't think that was at all his intentions, but that's what I channel channeled it into.

John Dehlin [02:18:45] So what. What types of activities. Just to summarize, what types of activities you were involved in or spearheaded as a high schooler in Oakland, a sweet Mormon convent girl high schooler, you're leading, what, with bullhorns?

Saane Siale [02:19:03] What do you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:04] What were your main civil rights activities in high school?

Saane Siale [02:19:06] Yeah, a lot of it was just super big on community involvement. So, I mean, there were already activist groups. Again, the Bay Area has a huge history with fighting for human rights. So those. That history, that foundation already exists. What I did as a high schooler was I sought after those groups. And again, like I mentioned, I came with the perspective that let's get young people, young people, they should have an opinion on this. And we think back to the civil rights movement. Martin Luther King, he was only 25, 26. He was my age. And I remember finding that I'm like. He was young, you're saying, in the

John Dehlin [02:19:43] 50s when he started.

Saane Siale [02:19:44] Yes, yes. And even just in general, the entire civil rights movement. And Nate, you can chime in as well. It was young people that led these formative movements that have changed the course of history as we see today. Nate, do you want to add anything?

Nate Byrd [02:20:01] Oh, just.

John Dehlin [02:20:02] Yeah.

Nate Byrd [02:20:02] I mean, it was college students. It was kids. One of the biggest reasons that the civil rights movement went national was when news crews filmed those children being spread by fire hoses in Alabama, you know, when they were being attacked by dogs. Those were kids. Right, exactly. And so when those images went, you know, viral, in whatever sense you could use that in the 60s, that's what. What gained a lot of sympathy. And it's. You know, it was celebrated by Dr. King and by John Lewis and by a few others, because they wanted that sympathy to kind of reach out to everyone. So, yeah, it's always been young people at the forefront of these things. And honestly, a lot of people who are older than tend to kind of be more comfortable with the status quo or want to keep things the same way. A lot of times, it's younger people that are pushing things like that forward. And so that was the case with the civil rights movement, and it's kind of still the case now.

Saane Siale [02:20:55] Yes, 100%. Thank you for sharing that. But, yeah, a huge part of it was just I saw young people in these. In the history that I was studying. And for me, as a young person, I drew inspiration from that just because, I mean, even with my sister and even my family as a whole, we were just always involved. And even for me, like, my friendships, again, I really go back to. I'm so grateful for the integral friend group that I had, because we had conversations. It wasn't always constant, but it was really around the time when Obama was president and really talking about what does it mean? What does it mean when we talk about, you know, racism within this country? Those were things that were very important to me to highlight and to talk about. And so, yeah, when it came to my involvement, it was really just community. Community groups, different clubs. I started, like, the Polynesian Club at my high school. And so with that, you know, we talked about, you know, Polynesian history, Native Hawaiian history, and so just really building this kind of foundation of like, let's talk about these things. What can we do? And really believing that we could have an influence. Even my sister, she was interviewed by BuzzFeed at the time. She was like, only. She was super young, 13, 14, if that. Yeah, she did an interview with Buzzfeed about the protests that she had led as well. And so kind of that collaboration with my sister, back and forth, and my collaboration with people within my high school that also believed in the same things that I did that gave me the momentum to do the things that I did in terms of, like, protests and doing interviews as well.

John Dehlin [02:22:47] What protests were you leading as a high schooler in Oakland, As a Mormon, Tongan woman high schooler in Oakland, you're protesting what and how.

Saane Siale [02:22:56] Again, it goes back to the Black Lives Matter movement. So protesting against police brutality, especially in the city of Oakland, and really, just not even just in Oakland, across the entire Bay Area, Just protesting against police brutality. Protesting against picket.

John Dehlin [02:23:11] Picket lines. What?

Saane Siale [02:23:12] Yes. So with posters out in the streets. So getting permits or not getting permits, kind of trying to cheat the system. So, yeah, whether it was, like, in person protests or demonstrations where, you know, we would gather at, you know, the Capitol, gather together with huge groups of people, or also we would do chained lines against, you know, police officers with their batons and shields. Yeah, a lot of different things. Even public council meetings, that was another thing as well. That's Something that I was passionate about. I was very passionate in the fact that, like. Like, there are so many ways to, quote, unquote, protest. So many ways to be an activist and be involved, because there are people that, you know, were scared to be, you know, on the streets protesting, being in the presence of police. And so there are other ways, whether it be volunteering with nonprofits or things like that.

Anti-Blackness, Whiteness Standards, and Polynesian Identity

Nate Byrd [02:24:15] So I have a question.

Saane Siale [02:24:16] Yeah.

Nate Byrd [02:24:17] And it kind of. It's along the same lines, but you mentioned earlier that there's, you know, like, an undercurrent of anti blackness within Polynesian culture.

Saane Siale [02:24:25] Yes.

Nate Byrd [02:24:27] And then, you know, my experience, most of my experience with Polynesian people, like, I spent a few years in Hawaii. I was born there, but I was also very young. So most of my experience with Polynesian people has been at byu. In my experience, there tends to be a strong element of anti blackness when it comes to actually dealing with black people and people of color. But then there's also this kind of duality where black culture is also a huge part of Polynesian culture.

Saane Siale [02:24:55] Oh, yes.

Nate Byrd [02:24:56] So I guess, how did you. Was it the same in Oakland, or did you find it to be different at byu? And then kind of, how did you deal with that and, like, reconcile having people in, like, having other Polynesian people who maybe weren't as aligned with, like, the protesting and, you know, the things that you're passionate about?

Saane Siale [02:25:16] Yeah, that's a really great question. I'm glad that you brought that up. Well, for one, everything that you're saying, I completely agree with. There is that duality where it's just like there's this anti blackness, but then also this claim over things that are predominantly come from black culture. It's so weird. And even to this day, I'm still trying to grapple my mind over why that is. I mean, like, it even comes down to, like, the style, like, the shoes, Jordans, the things that people wear, the music that people listen to. I like, my brothers and I, we grew up listening to rap and hip hop that, like, that's one of my favorite genres of music. My favorite artist growing up was Tupac. That was also my brother's favorite artist. So it's like so much of, like, you know, the entertainment and music and all of that, and art. Art in all of its forms, fashion, whatever that that was, was attributed back to black culture. But it's so interesting because there is that anti blackness. And I think a lot of it just comes down to.

John Dehlin [02:26:22] Are you saying it was Tongan to value black culture and yet there's anti.

Saane Siale [02:26:29] No, I wouldn't say that.

John Dehlin [02:26:30] Okay.

Saane Siale [02:26:31] I, I, What I'm saying is that in the areas where Tongans grew up, at least for me, and growing up in the Bay Area, there was also a huge black presence. And with that, there was this kind of mesh or mixture of culture that Tongans adopted as American culture, but really is black culture.

John Dehlin [02:26:53] Does that make sense? Your white peers at your high school would have also liked Tupac and wore Nike.

Saane Siale [02:26:59] No, no, I wouldn't say that at all. No, not at all. I would say the students of color, so, like, you know, Latin American communities got it. My Polynesian communities.

John Dehlin [02:27:12] Okay.

Saane Siale [02:27:13] Liked things that came from black culture. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [02:27:16] Were you part of a Polynesian community? That's what I'm trying to understand.

Saane Siale [02:27:20] Uniquely. Yes and no. I would say yes and no. I, the reason why I say that is just. I didn't really. I didn't grow up with. With Polynesian friends. I honestly didn't, unless you count my cousins. But obviously they were my family already. And so, like I mentioned, I grew up around black people. But going back to your question, Nate, how I reconciled that, I really just think it was my quest in understanding black history and what that looks like. A lot of Polynesian people don't make that effort. They don't make the effort to understand or really understand the scope of how horrible and inhumane that it was. And so for them, they're just almost disassociated with it. And so for them, it's okay to continue in this blind ideology of anti blackness, this idea that blackness is inferior, it's less than. But then at the same time, on the other side of the coin, it's also super cool. And it's popular. The popular thing to do, listening to rap is, quote, unquote, cool, or wearing Jordans and Nike shoes is the. It's. It's in, it's stylish. It's fashion right now. And so it's this weird, like,

Beau Oyler [02:28:43] two

Saane Siale [02:28:43] sides of the coin. Yeah. Duality. Where it's just like, when it comes down to it, when it comes down to issues for black people, I don't see people from my community that stand up to those things. But when it comes to black art, they take advantage of that or that. That's. They'll accept that. They'll take that, but not the rest that comes with it. Whereas for me, I see both. And what's more important to me is uplifting black voices and that black history that is so important to what it Means to be American. I think that's the issue that Pacific Islanders and Polynesians, they don't understand. They have this frame of what it means to be American to them. But I don't think they have the full picture, nor do they make the effort to have the full picture, Whereas I did. I did make that effort. And so I think that's why I was able to not let that undertone of anti blackness affect me, because I saw. I made a. A concerted effort to look beyond that and see how. How much of a disservice that is to my culture and. And just how I live. Does that make sense? Did that answer your question?

Nate Byrd [02:29:57] Yeah, that does. That makes sense.

John Dehlin [02:29:59] So, I mean, are you. Nate, are you. When we talk like, there's gonna be a lot of white Mormons or Polynesian Mormons that are, like, anti blackness, what are you talking about? Like. Like, are you saying that it would be, Nate, your perspective that Mormon Polynesians weren't big fans of black people? Like, is that kind of what you're saying? What do we mean by Polynesian anti blackness?

Nate Byrd [02:30:27] So kind of what I mentioned earlier, with whiteness being the standard black people within the church. Not really. You know, we're not high up. Right. If that makes sense. And so a big part of. Of whiteness, and it's different from being a white person. Like, whiteness and white. Like, white culture are kind of different things. And I think a lot of people don't necessarily realize that. But, like, whiteness is like the idea of white supremacy.

Saane Siale [02:30:55] Yes.

Nate Byrd [02:30:56] That kind of goes along with everything. And then there's, you know, white culture, which, you know, like Italian culture or like, wherever you may be from. That's like the culture part. But, like, whiteness, just like plain old American whiteness is usually like white nationalism, white supremacy. Right. So with the idea of whiteness, a huge part of whiteness is, like, separating yourself as much as possible from blackness. You know, if you look at, like, the situation with, like, Jewish people and black people back in the day, Jewish people and black people, we lived in the same neighborhoods. Like the ghetto. Ghetto is a Jewish word. Right. Because. Cause we're all in the same area. But then as part of kind of moving away from that and moving from that idea of being dirty whites, Jewish people elevated themselves to a level of whiteness that separated them from black people. Right.

John Dehlin [02:31:45] Kind of assimilation a little bit.

Nate Byrd [02:31:47] Exactly right. And so that's been evident with lots of other groups as well, that have done that. And so the idea of elevating Whiteness is separating yourself or distancing yourself from blackness. And so with that standard of whiteness in Polynesian culture, there's also a distancing from black people, but not necessarily black culture.

John Dehlin [02:32:08] Right.

Nate Byrd [02:32:08] Where you see like people enjoying black art and things like that. Or even, you know, one thing that I've run into a lot, or I've run into a lot at BYU was a lot of Polynesian people wanting to say the N word, but also not wanting to rock with black people. Right. So it's like you don't want to talk with black people people you want to avoid us. You know, there were people who vehemently opposed black Menaces. Spoke out against it. Did it?

Saane Siale [02:32:31] And Black Lives Matter.

Nate Byrd [02:32:32] Yeah, and Black Lives Matter, you know, very conservative, very right wing ideals.

John Dehlin [02:32:37] BYU Polynesian students that were against the Black Lives Matter movement and what the black menaces were doing at byu, which we'll get to.

Nate Byrd [02:32:45] Yeah, this, you know, they would be against all of those things and then be vocal about being against it, but then at the same time be wanting to consume elements of black culture. So when we talk about anti blackness or the standard of whiteness, it's that idea of like distancing yourself from black people and things like that. But then at the same time, you know, the duality of like, oh, this part of black culture is cool, or I listen to hip hop music, but I don't talk to black people, or oh, I don't support Black Lives Matter, but I love, you know, this particular black artist or whatever, you know, so

John Dehlin [02:33:18] that, yeah, well, as a way to kind of. I mean, I'm thinking this is going to be a two part episode because there's so much more I want to explore if you all have time. But like, there's something that I was feeling very strongly right before Nate asked this question, which is like, Nate, I don't remember in your story, you as a high school student leading demonstrations for the Black Lives Matter movement. And you're black, right?

Saane Siale [02:33:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:47] So like the idea that San is like a woman, faithful Mormon, Polynesian as an older sister, kind of raising her, her siblings, playing a mother role, but also as a, you know, going to be the first member of her family to go to college. So trying to become a. Becoming a straight A student, you're carrying all that, which is remarkable in and of itself. And then you're adding on top of that, being as an advocate for the Black Lives Matter movement when you're not black, when Nate, you wouldn't have, even as a Mormon kid, Growing up felt. I don't know, was it not the desire or the ability or the belief system to even want to play that role?

Nate Byrd [02:34:41] I just didn't know enough. I was very ignorant. Ignorant as a teenager.

John Dehlin [02:34:44] And I'm not shaming you just to be.

Nate Byrd [02:34:46] Oh, yeah, no, I don't feel shame at all. I mean, I'm not ashamed to admit it. I was very ignorant, and I was kind of kept in the dark about a lot of those things, and I didn't really have, like, access to learn about it in, you know, in a lot of ways. But that's why we love Sunday, because Sunday has always been a real one. Right. She's been doing this from early on.

John Dehlin [02:35:04] No, Nate, when you hear Saane tell the story that as a high schooler, Mormon girl, Polynesian, she's leading Black Lives Matter protests, what. What does that make you think and feel?

Nate Byrd [02:35:17] I mean, it. It's. It's amazing to me. Right. Because it's. It's something rare. Like, I had very few. Let me see. I'm trying. I don't think I've ever met another Polynesian person who is as supportive and as much of an ally to black people as Sana is. Right. So something that's very unique.

John Dehlin [02:35:31] I don't think I've met a white or a black person either who's more Mormon.

Nate Byrd [02:35:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:36] That did what Saane did.

Nate Byrd [02:35:38] I mean, I've known other black people. I've known other black people who have done things in activism. I. I was kind of late to the party. I was a bit of a late bloomer when it came to. To activism and. And things like that.

John Dehlin [02:35:48] So you have met some black Mormons who in their high school years were leading Black Lives Matter protests. Oh, yeah.

Nate Byrd [02:35:55] Rachel and Sebastian.

John Dehlin [02:35:56] Okay.

Nate Byrd [02:35:57] Of the Black Menaces. Yeah. You know, so we got to get

Saane Siale [02:35:58] them shout out to my roommate Rachel,

Nate Byrd [02:36:01] and they're graduated now. Sebastian's graduated, so maybe we can get them on here. But.

John Dehlin [02:36:04] So they. They would have been doing what Sonny did.

Nate Byrd [02:36:07] Yeah, absolutely.

Saane Siale [02:36:08] Yeah.

Nate Byrd [02:36:08] And, you know, several other people that I've known. You know, I was just one of those that was late to the party.

John Dehlin [02:36:11] But Sunny's pretty cool.

Nate Byrd [02:36:13] Oh, yeah.

Saane Siale [02:36:14] Oh, gosh.

John Dehlin [02:36:14] Oh, my God.

Nate Byrd [02:36:15] Sorry. Knows she's proud Polynesian, proud Tongan. But she knows she's honorary black, too.

John Dehlin [02:36:21] Honorary black. That's cool.

Saane Siale [02:36:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:36:25] And I guess I. But. But isn't it also remarkable that she was ready to go onto her mission without ever mentioning that this was such an important part of her identity? There's some humility there, that's also just incredibly profound to me. So this is my way of just saying how honored and humbled and impressed I am. Appreciate that with you and what you've. What you've done just up through high school.

Saane Siale [02:36:51] I appreciate that. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:36:52] It's remarkable. I think that's both. That's why you wanted to come. Absolutely.

Beau Oyler [02:36:57] Yeah. I mean, I've always been amazed and impressed with Sunny and with everything that she does and the way that she balances her life. And she does it in such a way that is very open and radically inclusive of everyone. Right. Including people like me who weren't out on the streets marching, but felt that inclusion from Sunny, like. Like, everyone, like, literally love over everything since she was a kid.

Saane Siale [02:37:27] Thank you.

Nate Byrd [02:37:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:31] Yeah. Well, so let's go ahead and say that. That we're gonna. We're gonna kind of wrap up this part one, take a little break and then come back with part two. But, like, take us up through graduating from high school.

Saane Siale [02:37:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:45] Like, how are you viewing what your future is going to be? Because it's such a. It's such a complex synthesis of your Christianity, your Mormonism, your. Your Tongan culture and your social justice advocacy. If. If I were to have interviewed you as a graduating senior, you know, in high school.

Saane Siale [02:38:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:10] You would say, this is my future. My future is what. What would you have said at the time?

Saane Siale [02:38:15] Oh, that's a great question. Wow. In the headspace that I was in at that time, how I would have answered that question, it would have been continuing my activism. That was never something that I saw myself stopping. If anything, graduating high school kind of, you know, ignited this spark and this fearlessness that I was going to continue doing this, wherever that was. And so that my next step was byu, and so it would have been

John Dehlin [02:38:44] a natural next step for a budding advocate who loves Black Lives Matter.

Saane Siale [02:38:49] Of course.

John Dehlin [02:38:49] Byu, Berkeley. It's not Stanford.

Saane Siale [02:38:53] It's not.

John Dehlin [02:38:54] No, it's byu. That's not a, you know, historically black college. Yeah, no, I'm being sarcastic.

Saane Siale [02:39:00] Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:01] But, like, did you note the irony of BYU as a choice, given the were a Black Lives Matter activist?

Nate Byrd [02:39:09] Did you know?

Saane Siale [02:39:09] That's a great question. I don't think I really understood the irony of that at the time because. And again, it's funny now because I'm just like, of all places.

John Dehlin [02:39:19] Of course you are.

Beau Oyler [02:39:20] You.

Nate Byrd [02:39:21] You don't really know what you're getting into.

Saane Siale [02:39:24] No, again, like, like Nate said, I. I don't think I really understood

John Dehlin [02:39:30] what

Saane Siale [02:39:30] that experience at BYU would like. I think at the time, I looked at BYU as I was the only Mormon. I was the only member of the church, of the LDS Church. And in all of the spheres of, like, in elementary, middle school, high school, when it came to, yeah. Being at protests and whatnot, I didn't see other members from my stake or from my ward that were, you know, with me fighting for these things, standing up for black lives matters and queer rights and all those things. Like. But for me, what. What was so important about all of those things is the fact that my religion influenced my belief in Christ, influenced that. And so I saw BYU as like, oh, this is what Christ does for me and influences me and inspires me to do. I'm going to be around people who also all believe and share the same religion. So to me, I looked at it as an opportunity to be in a community of other members like me, because I didn't really have that growing up. I was just one of the few Mormons growing up. And so for me, I looked at BYU as like, oh, this will be nice to be around other people of the same faith. That was really what it looked like to me. And so all of this, you know, background history of my life that was connected to my faith. And so in my mind, I'm coming to the same room. And obviously, I was so wrong, but that was really, like, my mind mindset at the time in my head space that, okay, I'm going to be with people from my. My religious community, the same faith.

John Dehlin [02:41:04] Yeah, beautiful. All right, well, so that's kind of a cliffhanger, because we're gonna. Now that we have San's amazing story up through high school, we're gonna. We're gonna now venture to part two of her story, which is like, what's it like to go on a mission? How did that influence her views of Mormonism? Because you were clearly sheltered from a lot of Mormon history, for sure, that you ended up feeling maybe uncomfortable about. And then what was it like to go to byu? And. And what were your experiences there?

Saane Siale [02:41:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:37] And how has that. How has that led to where you are now? And has there been a faith journey? You know, have your views on Mormon, Mormonism and your Mormon faith and your Mormon beliefs, have those. Have those changed over time? Yeah, that's the cliffhanger. Yeah. Yep. Anything you want to say to close this episode? Oh, I was gonna say, oh, yeah. If I were to ask you, you're graduating high school, what's your life going to be like? What are the major Milestones you're going to hit. What would you. Let's end with that. How would you have answered that question? I. Now that I'm graduating from high school, these are the main things I'm going to do in my life. What would you say?

Saane Siale [02:42:17] Yeah, I mean, first off, I'll say graduating high school, that was a very emotional time for me, just in the sense that it felt like I was leaving an era because I had so much momentum with my activism, so much momentum with building these relationships within the Bay Area and within my high school community. Even with the principal down to the teachers and the pta, all these things, I was so proud to leave that legacy behind, but I was also very scared of what that would look like, how that would morph into and change moving forward. Obviously, having had made decision to go to byu, what I would have said my next steps would have been, I would have said the mission. I'm going on mission. I don't think I would have said marriage. I probably would have said that I'm going to graduate BYU, go on to my master's or PhD. That was a goal, always has been a goal of mine is to just pursue higher education. So that's probably. At that time, that's probably what I would have said. So just further furthering my education and yeah, going on mission, but also with intentions of furthering my activism. Didn't know what that would have looked like, but I knew that's something that would have continued regardless.

John Dehlin [02:43:31] But. But you would have had a ultimate hope about temple marriage.

Saane Siale [02:43:35] Oh, yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [02:43:36] And. And maybe motherhood or maybe not.

Saane Siale [02:43:39] Yeah. So, yeah, I would add that. Yeah, maybe a hope for marriage and having children. I don't think at that time I was like, oh, this is gonna happen. That I don't think I had a

John Dehlin [02:43:50] question mark for you.

Saane Siale [02:43:50] Yes, it was a question mark as

John Dehlin [02:43:51] to whether or not you would marry.

Saane Siale [02:43:53] Yes. Even date. Even date somebody, Even get into a relationship. That was a question for me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:59] Okay. And if I had said, will you marry a white boy or a Polynesian boy or what, A Mormon boy, what would you have said as a senior?

Saane Siale [02:44:08] Ooh, probably some. Someone lds, but nothing to do with any specific race or ethnic background. I would have just said, question mark. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:44:19] And if we were to ask you, will you have kids someday, what would you have said at graduating high school, hopefully. And married? Temple marriage and children, hopefully. Okay, but it was a question mark for you.

Saane Siale [02:44:33] Question mark, yes.

John Dehlin [02:44:34] Okay. And if I would have said, will you always be a faithful Mormon. What would you have said?

Saane Siale [02:44:40] Ooh, gosh. Obviously, 26 year old Sonny now has a different answer. But if I'm being true to my version of Sonny at that time, I would have said yes, that I would have always remained a faithful Mormon. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:02] Okay. All right, so that's a cliffhanger for what happens next. So thanks so much for joining us for this part one of Sani Ciali's story. And Nate, thank you so much for being a part of part one.

Nate Byrd [02:45:16] Of course.

John Dehlin [02:45:17] You too, Bo. Thanks for making this happen. It's great to have your perspective here as well.

Beau Oyler [02:45:21] Thanks for having me. Good to hear Sonny's story. I love it.

John Dehlin [02:45:24] All right, all right, don't go away. Come right back for part two because we want to see how this story and we're going to talk about Saane's experience on her mission, her time at byu, how she interfaced with with the black menaces, but also how you advocated for inclusion and diversity at byu.

Saane Siale [02:45:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:45:42] Right.

Saane Siale [02:45:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:45:42] That's an important part of your story, right?

Saane Siale [02:45:44] It is.

John Dehlin [02:45:45] And then how your faith has progressed not just through byu, but now that you've graduated from byu and how that's affected your impressions of the church today and the role of the church in your life today.

Saane Siale [02:45:58] For sure.

John Dehlin [02:45:58] That's all coming, right?

Saane Siale [02:45:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:46:00] All right, so thanks for joining us for part one. Come right back for part two. And this has been great. So thanks, Sonny.

Saane Siale [02:46:07] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:46:08] Yeah.

Part Two Begins: Heading to BYU

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1772

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host for today. It's May 7th. I'm John Dehlin. We are here in the midst of what I think is a really interesting and important interview. We're here with Saane Ciale. Hey, Saane.

Saane Siale [00:00:14] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:15] We just spent two and a half or so hours hearing about Saane's amazing story. Growing up as the daughter of Tongan immigrants, growing up Mormon in the Oakland area and in a white ward, predominantly white ward, almost exclusively white ward, doing so many things, but excelling at her high school, being sort of a mother figure to her three younger siblings in a blended family, and if that weren't enough, becoming an advocate for social justice and particularly for the Black Lives Matter movement in the Oakland area as a believing, orthodox Mormon teenager. That's where we left off. Where you were graduating high school, about to serve a mission, about to go to byu and what I think would be kind of like a dream for the modern Mormon Church because you are educated woman of color who was also fighting for the rights of marginalized people. But as someone who identified as a Christian and as a Mormon and saw no conflict, right, between advocating for social justice but also being a woman of color in Mormonism, like, that seems like a PR dream. I'm looking at you, Beau. But that seems like a PR dream for the. For the Mormon Church. Given all the things the Mormon Church is struggling with today, like, I would have thought they'd be, like, wanting you to become their face in so many ways to. To try and, like, move forward in a way, give it, given all the historical problems with the church. But I'm getting ahead of. I'm getting ahead of your story. So. So anyway, welcome back. Thanks for joining us. If you haven't watched part one, please go back and watch it because it'll build a really important foundation for this part two. But thanks for joining us.

Saane Siale [00:02:13] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] And also joining us today is Nate Bird.

Nate Byrd [00:02:19] That's me.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] You'll recognize him from my previous episode with Nate on Mormon Stories. Nate was also one of the founding members of the Black Menaces at byu. He's got an amazing story as well. We'll make sure to include that in the show notes, but please check out Nate's interview. And thanks for joining us. Nate, you're here at Sonny's request.

Nate Byrd [00:02:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] Y' all are friends.

Nate Byrd [00:02:39] And thank you, Sonia, for inviting me. Thank you for way back. We've just kind of been around each other for years, and then that turned into a close Friendship.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] So, yeah. And then Bishop O. Or Bo Euler, who's become a dear friend of mine. He was also Carolyn Pearson's bishop in this Oakland ward. Sanne, you wanted Beau to be here as well, and he's provided really important context to this whole story. Bo, thanks for joining us.

Beau Oyler [00:03:05] Absolutely. Good to be here. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] All right. Saane. So we left off last episode with you graduating from high school, and you said that if we had interviewed you as a graduating senior, you were going to go on a mission, you were going to go to byu, you were going to go to graduate school, continue your work in social justice, and that you had hopes that someday you'd get married and have that temple marriage and do the Mormon thing and maybe even have kids. But because of your skin color and your cultural heritage, I think that dating, marriage, child thing was a question mark. And so we'll. That that's going to be an important theme of how that progresses.

Saane Siale [00:03:49] Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Especially going into college. So I actually did a year of BYU first before my mission.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] Okay.

Saane Siale [00:04:00] So I graduated in 2015. And so this was. Yeah, June of 2015. I went. I started my freshman year of college that fall of 2015 in August. And so, yeah, did. Did school for both fall and winter semester.

John Dehlin [00:04:18] Did you do the dorms at byu?

Saane Siale [00:04:20] Yeah, I actually lived at Heritage Halls. That was definitely an interesting experience because I had. And I had mentioned this on the previous episode where I talked about how I was, you know, I was eager to go to BYU because I thought that, you know, finally I get to be, you know, around people from the same religious community, people with the same faith. And so that was an aspect that I was excited to be a part of. You know, I didn't have to wake up early and go to seminary and do things like. Right. Like it was already integrated into my academic experience. And so that was something that I looked forward to. But very quickly, I figured out very early on that it was not at all how I had envisioned it or expected it to be. And I'm sure Nate could obviously share, you know, same undertones as well in his experience. But for me, especially the first year, I mean, there are different layers to it. Same thing with the dating aspect. That was such a huge part of, like, BYU culture and just the idea of, like, everybody, you need to get married, blah, blah, blah. And again, the same thing I experienced the same issue of where I wasn't being pursued. People weren't seeking after me, but my other roommates, who happened to be white were and Also, and honestly, quite constant. It was constant seeing, you know, people be getting asked out on dates, being pursued after or being sought after as, you know, desirable per se. And that. That was not my experience. And so.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] Okay, so you're a. You're a first generation. Yeah. Tongan.

Saane Siale [00:06:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] College student at a woman of color at a BYU ward in heritage halls in Provo, Utah. What percentage of your student ward were people of color versus just white kids?

Saane Siale [00:06:18] Oh, my gosh. If I were to give a percentage, It'd be like 5% of your ward of, of. Of my ward that were people of color. And the other 95, maybe 10. But again, as you can see, very grand difference in terms of like. So again, I was in the same position where I was still around white membership, but now this was like my entire college, like, experience and the same thing. You know, here I grew up in a white ward in my upbringing, and then that was kind of like copy and paste the same thing in college.

John Dehlin [00:06:57] Have you seen the musical Wicked by chance?

Saane Siale [00:06:59] I have not. Okay, I know. I know about it. And I've seen clips in here. I know the general story.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] Well, the idea of, like, Elphaba going to Oz, she's excited to leave her home to go to Oz, but she gets there and she goes to even a university there, but she's a different color. She's green.

Saane Siale [00:07:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] And all the other kids are white.

Saane Siale [00:07:19] Right.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] So you may enjoy seeing that someday. But I'm wondering. Yeah. What was it like to be a woman of color at BYU where you're clearly a racial or ethnic minority? You're saying so you were excited to date Mormon boys. Most of the Mormon boys were white in your ward, but they weren't. They weren't pursuing you.

Saane Siale [00:07:38] Yes, that's correct. So again, this. This the same feelings that I had previously where I didn't meet the standard of beauty that the majority of, you know, LDS members had, that was reinforced again, being at byu, being a freshman. I remember one time I had gone asked out on a date and later to come find out it was a dare.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] It.

Saane Siale [00:08:03] It wasn't intentional.

John Dehlin [00:08:05] A dare.

Saane Siale [00:08:06] Yes, it was.

Beau Oyler [00:08:07] What does that mean?

Saane Siale [00:08:08] It was, I don't know, some along the lines of like, oh, like some kind of joke, some kind of. It was names out of a jar that they had put from, you know, women of color from the ward, and they would pick out a name. And yeah, it was a dare to ask out that person or to pass. And so this person chose to ask me out. But again, it wasn't with the intentions of like actually genuinely wanting to get to know me. It was, I mean, kind of pretty much a mockery. So I had that experience and then I had also an experience of like a white returned missionary who had served in Tonga who had this, like, this very real, like, I can't say this word. Fetish.

Nate Byrd [00:09:01] That's the word I was.

Saane Siale [00:09:03] Fetishization. Yes. So I was basically viewed and from his perception as like, oh, this is this, this Tongan girl. Like, I speak Tongan and I, I served in your, like, homeland and I like, I want you. But it was very. So I had, you know, those, those different experiences. Disgusting.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] Oh, that didn't feel like. Oh, wow.

Saane Siale [00:09:29] No, no, no, it didn't.

John Dehlin [00:09:32] Because.

Saane Siale [00:09:33] Because, I mean, there was a sense of entitlement that he knew my culture better than me. That was very off putting. And also this sense of like, so now you're, now you're seeking after me solely for. Because it's like you almost want to honor your mission, I guess. But to me, that was weird. Like you, you weren't getting to know me for me, had you not had that experience, would you have even sought after me in a genuine way? I don't think so. And so again, this very. Yeah. Multiple negative experiences that did not help fill in this question mark that I already had throughout my upbringing. If anything, it made it even more confusing and even more isolating because this obviously deep down, of course, I had the hope of being in a relationship of feeling that sense of romantic love that we always put on a pedestal. We do that in all of society and in many different ways. Mormonism is not unique to that, but obviously specifically within the context of the LDS Church, because Marri and Eternal Families is such one of the core parts of being Mormon and being surrounded by a community of people who all share the same beliefs. But being a person, that. That does not seem possible or real to me. Yes, that was a very isolating and lonely time for me in my freshman year of byu. Especially having those experiences with where I was a joke to people or oh, I would never ask her out, but I'll do it for a dare, things like that. It really affected the way that this does not feel like the community that I thought I would enter into.

Nate Byrd [00:11:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:30] And that's why I brought up Oz, because it's this idea, if you raised Mormon, you're raised that this is God's God and Jesus is one. This is the church of Jesus Christ, literally God's one true church. So if that's true, then If BYU is, is the premier university of God and Jesus as one true church, then this is going to be almost Zion or Utopia for how people treat each other.

Saane Siale [00:11:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:58] So I'm going to go there and everybody's going to be colorblind and everybody's going to just love everyone and I'll be viewed like all the other women and I'll be dating just like all the other women, brown, white, whatever. And it'll just be this utopian kind of the best possible culture and the best possible experience at the best possible university of God's one true church. God and Jesus is one true church. Those were the expectations I had as a white kid growing up in Texas, coming to BYU because. Because how could it ever be better? How could any university experience ever be better if it's Jesus's university effect? So then when you get there, is there kind of this Dorothy going to Oz disillusion of like, wait, if this is Jesus and God's church and university, how could I be treated this way?

Saane Siale [00:12:51] Oh, 100%. I definitely came to BYU with this idea that where I didn't have to worry about acceptance, I didn't have to worry about inclusion. I genuinely thought that that would never be a concern coming to BYU because again, the forefront of how I am as a person and being inclusive as I am was through my idea and understanding of Christ. And so for me, it only made sense that being around people who also believed in Christ, that I wouldn't have had to worry about that. And so obviously, my freshman year at byu, countless experiences where it just, it made me question, like, how did I get this wrong? Like, how was I so wrong about what I had convinced myself would be true for me at byu?

Being a Woman of Color at BYU

John Dehlin [00:13:45] So you say it was lonely. Like, as someone who went to byu, there's a part of my brain that's like, how could anyone be lonely at byu? There's the wards. You're, you know, there's the activities, there's groups where, where you're assigned a quote, fake family of like 10 students. And there's a, literally a mom and a dad called to have weekly activities. Then there'll be dorm activities, then there'll be, you know, student activities and dances. Like, it's like, if anything BYU is anything, it's this social mecca of thriving social activities. So the idea of any BYU student as a freshman feeling lonely, plus dorm activities, like with your dorm mates.

Saane Siale [00:14:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:30] How could. So tell us how a BYU student, freshman could ever feel lonely.

Saane Siale [00:14:35] Yeah. I will say, I have to add, I Brought this up in the last episode when I was a junior in high school and attended the SOAR program from the Multicultural Student Services Office. That was my first introduction to byu. And it was a positive experience because I was surrounded by other people of color like me, who I related to, who we resonated with, the same things. And so that influenced my idea, coming into BYU thinking that, oh, I'll just be around all these students of color that share the same faith as me and have the same passions and come to find out I get to BYU and I have to actively find them. I didn't realize that the majority of BYU and the majority of the student population are white lds. And so, again, that was also a misconception that I had because of that program that I attended through the Multicultural Student Services office.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] I guess you would hope. I would hope that if you had had that SOAR experience applying to byu, that somehow BYU would carry that through. And it's like, oh, you were a SOAR student. Okay, here's orientation, and then here's where you go to meet all those other students of color so that you can start forming a community and friendships there. On the one hand, I would think I would hope for that. On the other hand, I would see BYU administrators being. No, no, no, we don't see color. Yeah, you're just going to have the BYU experience.

Saane Siale [00:16:04] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:16:05] And we're not going to segregate you. That's almost racist to, like, segregate students by color. They would think they were doing you a favor, but by just integrating you into white byu.

Saane Siale [00:16:16] No, that's one. Yes, that is definitely true. This idea of, like, oh, well, we don't want to look like we're segregating, so we're not going to do anything. But then at the same time, you have, again, like, the sense of loneliness and this sense of isolation that students of color really feel and experience. And at least that was true for me. Obviously, I can't speak for every student of color that. That attended byu. I can only speak from my friends and friends of color that opened up to me and we shared similar things. But, yeah, speaking for myself, it really felt like I was just kind of thrown into ybyu and it really felt like I was set up for failure. And the reason why I say that is just because this idea that, like, I said that I would. I would feel included, that. That, you know, my diversity would be celebrated and appreciated. It didn't feel that way either. I was again, you know, the whole fetish thing of people Pursuing me just because of my cultural identity and what I looked like. And then the other side of that, where I, you know, I didn't fit the standard of beauty. And so again, this very weird, like, well then where do I bel. At least in the aspect of dating. I won't say that that was my entire experience. I mean, when I.

John Dehlin [00:17:47] But dating is a huge part of byu.

Saane Siale [00:17:50] It is, it is.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] The main reason I went to BYU was the date. I'm not kidding. Like, I had no way of really dating Mormon girls growing up in Texas.

Saane Siale [00:17:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:17:59] So this is my one chance to date Mormon girls.

Saane Siale [00:18:02] No, and, and I would totally agree with that. I mean, growing up in the area that I did, again, I was literally one of five Mormons and they were my cousins.

John Dehlin [00:18:10] In your high school?

Saane Siale [00:18:11] In my house.

John Dehlin [00:18:11] Yes.

Saane Siale [00:18:11] Like, like, and my brother, like, literally, like, I had no. And again, the Mormon boys that I grew up back home, they weren't pursuing after me. So for me, like, there was no access or availability to that. So me, yeah, coming to byu, I did have the idea that, okay, maybe I'll meet other Mormon boys who might find me attractive or beautiful or fit, you know, the standard of beauty that they appreciate. And have I came into BYU having that mindset? Did I experience that my freshman year byu? Absolutely not. If anything, it was the exact opposite and really, really deterred me away from the idea of ever even getting married. And which is why I was so focused on going on a mission my first year of, of byu, because marriage is not, is not possible right now. Dating is not happening at all. I'm seeing it happen for other people that don't look like me. And of course, you know, I mean, for me, like at that time, like, how could I not internalize, is it what I look like? Because I don't look like these other girls, but they're being asked on dates every single day. So how can it not be about what I look like or how I come across or even the beliefs that I shared? I remember being at BYU and being vocal about supporting same sex marriage, supporting queer people and being, and people looking at me and, you know, side eyeing me and you know, making comments that, you know, put down these beliefs that I literally protested about. And so that too was another thing where it's just like, wow, I am I. The only thing that I have in common with these people is that we're members of the same church. That was the only thing that we had in common. But anything in terms of like, things that I believed in regard to Human rights in regard to, you know, my cultural identity, that was nowhere near having any. Any same level of understanding to me at the time. I really had to seek after friendships and specific people in order to feel included, in order to feel like I belonged, that that was a concerted effort that I had to do, or else I would have just been consumed by this, you know, white BYU idea.

John Dehlin [00:20:35] Did you feel more embraced in your home ward than you did at byu?

Saane Siale [00:20:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] How do you explain?

Saane Siale [00:20:41] Absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:42] Is that just because it's liberal Oakland or. I mean, was it Bishop O. Or was it just for sure.

Saane Siale [00:20:50] I mean, Bishop Bo.

John Dehlin [00:20:51] I mean, one of like, his wife, Heather.

Saane Siale [00:20:53] Yes, Heather as well. I love Heather, by the way. I mean, for sure, I definitely felt more accepted in my white ward back in the Bay Area than I ever did at byu, which is so ironic. Again, there were experiences that weren't the most positive growing up in my white ward. But for the most part, I never. I mean, I felt community. I felt a sense of LDS community. I felt a sense of wow, the same faith community that I really, you know, drew to for strength. And a lot of that was because of people like Beau Euler. I mean, he was the bishop that sent me out on my mission. Like, when I talk about, like, the interview that I did, like, that was him. Like, he was my bishop at the time. And so. And I'll never forget, I mean, I can't remember what letter it was about same sex parents and children. And I remember it came out and it caused a lot of controversy. And I just remember Beau Oyler, as my bishop at the time, going up on the stand and kind of. Not necessarily. I mean, I don't know if I would use the word denouncing it, but really just like saying that, like, that doesn't apply to us, that doesn't apply to this ward family. And I remember being amazed seeing an authority figure within that, you know, that level of being a bishop, seeing somebody get up there and kind of go against what the top church leaders, apostles, the prophet was saying. That was the first time in my mind for me where I was like, oh, I can have a different opinion than my church leaders. That had never really occurred to me until that moment. And I was like, about 15 at that time. I can't remember exactly what age I was. So, yeah, that I bring that up to illustrate just how important was and how different I felt from my homeward, where it was very inclusive and progressive and liberal, of course, whereas at byu, complete opposite.

The 2015 Exclusion Policy and LGBT Advocacy at BYU

John Dehlin [00:22:51] Well, mentioning LGBT stuff and your advocacy, the November 2015 exclusion policy would have come out while you were in your first semester at byu.

Saane Siale [00:23:00] Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] Do you want to talk about when you remember that coming out or do you even remember that it's so.

Saane Siale [00:23:07] Yes and no. I do remember it. And again, what I remember most is just how people around me at BYU reacted to it and which was how. Which was in support of it and how it made sense. Whereas for me, in my mind, that did not make sense. That felt so contradictory to the life that I had led up until that point. And I'm talking about, like, some of my best friends are part of the LGBTQ community. So for me, the idea that here I am, like, sharing this religion with people, bearing testimony, sharing my faith and being so proud of that, and then this coming out and thinking that goes against people that I love, that does not make sense to me. But then seeing my peers at byu, for them, it was just so easy to accept it. There was no space to ask questions or to challenge those kinds of things. And for me, that was. That was a red flag. That was an issue for me because for me, I have the natural tendency to challenge things. If something doesn't make sense to me, I try to make it make sense or I try to find more information or look at it from a different perspective or talk to people or hear different stories. And it was just mind blowing and mind boggling to me that this vast majority of people did not do that, did not bat an eye at how that could be painful and hurtful to real families, to real people. And that was really bothersome to me in my freshman year of byu.

John Dehlin [00:24:47] Yeah. And there is. And I remember this at BYU because there was a strain of progressive activists at byu, whether it was a student review, which was an alternative newspaper at the time. Joanna Brooks. You know, there was a strain of social activism at BYU when I was there in the 80s and 90s. But of course, it was viewed. Viewed as bad and unapproved and. But on the. On the one hand, it makes call. On one hand, college is the time to like, to protest, to, yes, to critically find your voice, to critically think that's, like, part of the purpose of college. And on the other hand, Mormons just all saying, whatever the brethren say, follow the brethren. That makes every bit of sense to me as well. So for you, it must have been a really confusing time.

Saane Siale [00:25:41] Oh, very confusing, because for me, I wasn't afraid to, like I said, challenge ideas, because for me, it made sense to be inclusive of all of these marginalized communities and also be a follower of Christ. That never clashed to me. Christ influenced all of my activism during my upbringing. And so it just opened my eyes to just the lack of understanding, the lack of compassion, lack of empathy, the huge lack of critical thinking that, you know, people around me, surrounding me did not have. And so it's interesting because at the same time I'm reading the Book of Mormon, I'm studying to prepare for a mission, But I'm also wrestling with why am I surrounded by people that don't believe the things that I believe in? I don't get that. But here I am preparing to further teach this gospel to. I don't know who. I wasn't obviously sure where I would be called to or where I would serve. And so it was just this weird balancing act during my freshman year of byu where I'm trying to find my community, trying to, you know, reconcile with people from my faith community. That clash that is clashing with my personal beliefs, political beliefs, whatever it was. Then I'm also prepping to go on a mission. That was a huge goal of mine and something that I was actively working towards. And I would say, too, I mean, it wasn't just within the church. It was also, I mean, at BYU too, within my classes. I remember taking an American heritage class at BYU and a student making a very derogatory comment about immigrants about. It was very clear that this student was very anti immigration, very anti letting anyone come, you know, into the country, made some comment about. About how, like, people need to come in the legal way or whatnot. And it bothered me because obviously I'm a daughter of immigrants, and the process of immigration that my parents undertook was not by any means easy. And so just things like that, comments that my peers, my peers, my college peers in all of these different classes that they would make. I even had students who would assume that the scholarships that I received that paid for my BYU tuition was solely because of the color of my skin.

John Dehlin [00:28:24] Affirmative action.

Saane Siale [00:28:25] Affirmative action, 100%. I can't tell you how many times I had conversations with my white student counterparts, my white student peers that constantly made that. That comment and had just assumed that I was there just to boost numbers,

John Dehlin [00:28:41] fill, fill racial quotas.

Saane Siale [00:28:43] Exactly, exactly. And so, again, things like that. And at the time, like, I couldn't process all of these things at once because it was happening so often and it was happening in so many different ways, whether it was at church, whether it was in the dating world, whether it was in school, and people are acting as if they're experts about marginalized experiences and vulnerable populations. And me coming from a background where I saw that firsthand, it was just so much at once to deal with, which is why I think I dived so deep into pursuing a mission, because I had this idea in my mind at the time that I'm gonna be the Mormon that, you know, shows how it should be done. Or I'm gonna be the Mormon that, you know, changes the whole fabric of the. The church. Big goals.

John Dehlin [00:29:38] Have you seen the Book of Mormon musical?

Saane Siale [00:29:40] No, I haven't.

John Dehlin [00:29:40] There's this line from the Book of Mormon musical. Bo's laughing. I'm going to be the Mormon who changes all mankind.

Beau Oyler [00:29:48] And I feel like most Mormons sitting in that theater watching that have all felt that way. Right. Or it's just like, I'm going to be the one to help change this.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] But in the. But you're trying to change Mormonism. See, that's the difference.

Saane Siale [00:30:00] Right?

John Dehlin [00:30:01] You're like, I'm going to be the woman of color that changes Mormon culture to make it better for. Not just for people of color and women of color, but for LGBT people and for, you know, everybody.

Saane Siale [00:30:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] Progressive people.

Saane Siale [00:30:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:20] And. And so you channel your discomfort at BYU into preparing for a mission.

Saane Siale [00:30:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:28] And figuring out maybe how you could become an activist within Mormonism.

Saane Siale [00:30:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:34] Is that right?

Saane Siale [00:30:35] For sure. Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:30:37] My heart is already breaking for you.

Saane Siale [00:30:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] In the story. Because I know how the story. I have a sense for how the story is going to end, but really quickly, I have to ask. So I was an American Heritage TA at BYU.

Saane Siale [00:30:49] Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] Back in the, you know, late 80s and early 90s. And even at that time, BYU American Heritage was. Was kind of controversial because the form of it was. It's a. It's a. It was a history, political science and economics class.

Saane Siale [00:31:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:11] But it. But taught a very conservative, almost like nationalistic form of American history and American apologetics. I remember a friend, Matt Matthew Stannard, would, like, protest American Heritage as a course to. Because, like, it never mentioned, you know, the treatment of Native Americans and cultural genocide or imperialism or nationalism. It just sort of. It was sort of like this. Thomas Jefferson, James Madison. The Constitution's inspired and America's great, and we're the light on the hill, and there's a truth and a goodness. And Jesus and God were inspired. The Constitution and, And. And Mormons. Somehow God led the church in America to save the world. You know, that. That's. That's kind of like how I. And I at the Time. I loved Rush Limbaugh and I loved the Republican Party and so I loved being an American Heritage TA because it, it all fit with my Republican political sensibilities.

Saane Siale [00:32:20] Right.

John Dehlin [00:32:21] And my white maleness in the world and Christianity for that matter. How did you experience both the, the political sensibilities of the American Heritage class, but more importantly the, the political sensibilities of the BYU student body? And I, this is, I want to just give a disclaimer. We're not politically partisan on Mormon stories. Officially, we're not anti Trump or pro Biden or any of that. Like I despise in many ways the two party system. I find both parties problematic. I find, let's just say Biden and, and Trump problematic just in different ways for sure. Having said all that, I just want to know how you experienced political culture at byu.

Saane Siale [00:33:10] Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:13] And Nate smiles.

Saane Siale [00:33:14] And I'm also going to give Nate some time too because I want to hear from him as well. Well, because again, that's one of the main reasons why I was drawn to people like Nate, because not just in the fact that we were like minded, but being able to have real and raw, honest conversations about the political arena and the political atmosphere not only at byu, but in America itself as a nation. My experience at BYU and how I perceived it will ultimately right wing, extreme conservative, very homophobic, transphobic views. Again, same thing with the anti blackness, whether it was in like my own Polynesian Pacific Islander community or just this, you know, this idea of not even idea, but just undertones and also blatant racism. I bring that up too because I mean a lot of the things that I witnessed and experienced myself and again, I won't say it was all, you know, with malicious intents or people intentionally trying to hurt me, but I mean, I experienced numbers of, you know, various, you know, comments and things that I saw that people would say that. Well, for one, obviously I didn't agree with politically, but at the same time we're really just these undertones of like such a lack of understanding or willingness to even, even, even have any proximity to the people that they were talking about. Like I mentioned the person that made that comment about immigration, like came to mind. I remember this girl, same class, she talked about how like the reason why she locks her doors, the reason why she locks, you know, the doors of her home is to protect the people inside from people outside. And she was specifically referring to immigrants because they're all criminals. She didn't explicitly say that, but I knew exactly what she was meaning. I knew exactly what she was insinuating. And so things like that I experienced constantly. And so again, here I was in this atmosphere of people who are openly and proudly conservative, proudly Republican, but with that attached with, you know, these very homophobic, transphobic, very racist views, anti black views, anti immigration views. But in my mind, I'm like, then why do you believe in missionary work? Like, how can you believe in missionary work? And you think about people in this way. You think about people that come from these different backgrounds in that way, again, which fed into my, I'm going to change the world, I'm going to change the church, and I'm going to go on a mission and do better than they did. But yeah, I mean, Nate, like, what would you add in terms of, like, how you viewed, I guess, like the political atmosphere at byu? That. That was just like what I saw right off the bat.

Nate Byrd [00:36:18] But yeah, I. To be honest, I would say probably the best way to describe being at BYU as a person of color is like if you got invited to go on vacation with somebody else's friend group and you didn't know anybody in the group, it kind of feels like that where it's just. It's uncomfortable. Everybody else seems to have a lot in common with each other, but you don't necessarily.

Saane Siale [00:36:44] That's a great analogy.

Nate Byrd [00:36:46] And yeah, it's just an uncomfortable experience all the way around. And, you know, every once in a while there might be a chance to connect with someone, but for the most part, you just kind of feel like an outsider because you hear things, you know, like the comment that the lady made about locking her doors and things like that. And you say, well, that's about me. Or I know that this person is not. They may not be looking directly at me, but they're making this comment. And that comment affects me in some way.

Saane Siale [00:37:10] Exactly.

Nate Byrd [00:37:11] And so I feel like the political climate at byu, obviously it's extremely conservative, but on top of that, it's extremely lds. And so you put those two together and you have the element of being super sheltered as a member of the church and then also the element of being extremely conservative on top of that. It creates an interesting environment and it just feels hostile all the time.

Saane Siale [00:37:32] Yes, yes.

Nate Byrd [00:37:34] I didn't realize this at the time, but I used to play music on campus all the time. You know, every time I went on campus, I would play music which I loved. Yeah, it was great. I had a speaker and I would play songs, you know, different. Different music, different days. Sometimes it was rock, sometimes it was R and B. Sometimes it was hip hop, and I would play that on my way to class. And part of why I did it was so that nobody would talk to me unless I wanted them to. And then I think another part of it was that I was just very anxious being on campus. I didn't realize that at the time, but going on campus just kind of spiked my anxiety like crazy. And so to just make it to class, I would play music just as a way of getting there and, you know, being able to focus, like with

John Dehlin [00:38:12] earbuds or the way.

Nate Byrd [00:38:14] Yeah. So other people could hear. Oh, yeah. So it was kind of like a

John Dehlin [00:38:17] way of, like on your phone, just the speaker enabled or.

Nate Byrd [00:38:20] So I had a Bluetooth speaker.

John Dehlin [00:38:22] Oh, you would carry.

Nate Byrd [00:38:23] I would put it on my backpack. Yeah. And I would carry that. So people would hear the music.

Saane Siale [00:38:26] Yeah, anyone could hear it.

Nate Byrd [00:38:28] Yeah, anyone could hear it. You know, you could hear it from a long ways away. And so I would just play my music on the way to class. And so it was a way of me being like, hey, I'm here.

John Dehlin [00:38:34] Like a force field.

Nate Byrd [00:38:35] Yeah, exactly. I think that's kind of how I use it, as, like a force field on my way to class. Yeah. It just felt very hostile. And so that was a way to make it feel less hostile for me on my way to class. And so I think that's. The political climate at BYU for most people of color is very hostile. And unless you. Unless you assimilate into that, then it just continues to feel that way. And so I think I talked about this on my episode where you'll see kind of a divergence where some people would try and assimilate and try and put themselves in a position where they're accepted, myself included in that. And then there's other people who will try and diverge and be independent and be themselves, but it's also a very uncomfortable experience.

John Dehlin [00:39:17] Yeah. And I want my Republican or conservative political listeners to feel comfortable on Mormon stories and never feel judged or like there's even a preference. But I'm going to ask them to put on their empathy caps for a second, because, like, if I'm. If I'm channeling 2016, Obama will have just served two terms. Right.

Saane Siale [00:39:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:38] Donald Trump would be running in the primaries against Hillary Clinton. And Trump's platform would have been anti Black Lives Matter.

Saane Siale [00:39:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:39:48] And it would have been anti immigrant.

Saane Siale [00:39:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:39:50] And it probably wouldn't have been pro lgbt.

Saane Siale [00:39:53] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:39:54] And. And so to have the overwhelming majority of your college peers be anti immigrant, anti lgbt, in some ways, misogynistic or anti women. Because Trump didn't feel like the best friend to women to many at the time. And, and I think a big part of Republicanism, as I understood it, was to view the Obama, like to refer to Obama as Satan and to. And to refer to Michelle and Barack Obama as like horrible, evil people.

Saane Siale [00:40:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:34] By just people who felt affiliation with the Republican Party. I just can't imagine how hostile that environment would feel at BYU to women of color and to African Americans. And as someone who had been advocating for Black Lives Matters.

Saane Siale [00:40:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:53] As an immigrant.

Saane Siale [00:40:54] Yes. Like, I can't think of the word.

John Dehlin [00:40:58] A worse environment for you to be in. Frankly, no. College freshman.

Saane Siale [00:41:02] It. Honestly, it was.

John Dehlin [00:41:05] Can you, bro? Like, yeah, no, like, let's pick the worst possible environment person Aciali, and let's put her there as a freshman. College wise.

Saane Siale [00:41:16] Yeah. No. 100%. And especially, you know, the 2016 presidential election. That's a huge part of my story at byu. I was actually in my mission when I found out that Trump had won. But even before leading up to that, just the way that. And again, like, I never had an issue with people who were Republican or. I grew up with bipartisan parents. My mom was Democrat, my dad was Republican. I grew up with this healthy conflict of having differing opinions, different ways of looking at the world. What became an issue is that, as Nate said, this combination of you almost can't be Mormon without having this conservative or Republican point of view. That was my perspective being at byu. Me being this progressive liberal Mormon. That was wrong. That was absolutely wrong. That's how I felt being at byu. And so that was my issue was just there was no space for people like me to have a space that mattered. To have a space that felt uplifted or was even considered or even respected. That was never the case, at least for me. And so for me, it tainted the way that I viewed Republicans and conservatives. Because so much of, like you mentioned, right. This anti immigrant, anti Black Lives Matter, anti LGBTQ community, anti same sex marriage, all those things, people around me, my peers, were very vocal about that. Very vocal, very proud of that. And connected those political beliefs to Scripture, connected those political beliefs to the doctrine within the church.

John Dehlin [00:43:07] So of course, justify racism and that sort of thing.

Saane Siale [00:43:10] Yeah. Anti immigration. Yeah. All those things. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:12] The scriptures first.

Saane Siale [00:43:13] Yes, 100%. I mean, in, I mean, how. In a lot of different ways.

John Dehlin [00:43:20] Whether scripture supports. And so what. What scripture, Mormon or Christian, supports racism and. Or anti immigration and. Or anti Black Lives Matter. Do you even remember how that would Be justified.

Nate Byrd [00:43:33] You can find the scripture to support anything. I mean, I don't know. I can't name any specific ones. People will take things and they'll take their beliefs and twist it into whatever they wanted to. You know, that's how slavery was justified through religion. That's how, you know, sexism is justified. That's why I saw the guy who wrote Purpose Driven Life. His church was just kicked out of the Southern Baptist Convention because.

John Dehlin [00:43:56] Rick Warren, Saddleback Church.

Nate Byrd [00:43:58] Yeah, he just. He hired a woman pastor, and so they kicked him out of the Southern Baptist Convention. You know, so they justify that through religion. It doesn't really matter what the scripture is. It's just all about the mindset.

John Dehlin [00:44:08] But that happened in Mormonism at byu.

Nate Byrd [00:44:12] What happened?

John Dehlin [00:44:12] Just the justification of bigotry through Christian and Mormon scripture.

Nate Byrd [00:44:17] Oh, yes, absolutely. On my mission, I had several people tell me that Trump was called by God and, you know, say things like that he was brought to save the world or he was the second coming of Jesus Christ. I got that quite a bit.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] Like the white horse prophecy, the Constitution is going to hang by a thread sort of thing.

Nate Byrd [00:44:32] My. My mission president prophesied that Donald Trump would win the election in a good way.

John Dehlin [00:44:39] Like.

Nate Byrd [00:44:39] Yeah, well, so it was. It was more neutral. What did he say? He said. He said he already knew who was going to win the election. And he used the scriptures. He used Second Nephi, where he talks about how the. What did he say? He talked about how, like, the devil would influence people and he would bind them with. Or he would use anger, he would use fear and something else. And he's like, Donald Trump is tapped into people's anger. That's why he's going to win the election. So it wasn't necessarily a positive thing. But, yeah, so I heard a lot of things like that.

Saane Siale [00:45:15] Yeah. And I would totally agree with Nate. Like, that was the same lines of, like, using anything to justify their comfort with their own beliefs. That was just a constant theme that I saw in. In my peers at byu. And it was interesting because, I mean, even. Even comments about Trump and, I mean, people compared him to Captain Moroni. People even revered him. No, we talk about how, like, you know, if we talk about, you know, the Ten Commandments about how to not have idols. I literally saw my own Mormon peers at BYU who literally idolized Donald Trump. And that was so confusing to me because I'm just like, how do you not see the hypocrisy in how you're leading your life in. In terms of. Well, I guess in a political aspect. And the way that people talked about Donald Trump, at least in my experience at byu, never heard those things about Obama, never in the same light, at least like you said, you know, when it came to the conversation of Obama, it was just so evil, so horrible, so this and that. And then here people are praising Donald Trump. Even when I was in the mtc, in my zone, I was with multiple missionaries that were going to different French speaking countries. I served in Tahiti, Papeete, French and Tahitian speaking. And so with, you know, other missionaries in the mtc, I remember vividly people screaming in joy, like, cheering like, yay, Donald Trump won. And people making the comments that God is going to come back into this country or we're going to get back on the right track. And in my mind thinking, how am I in the same vicinity with these people that are so joyous and happy about this outcome of this election? And I feel so defeated, so hopeless and so scared of what that would look like? Again, just like constant wrestling of like, how does this make sense? The we're all going to be missionaries, we're all about to go serve in the field and there's, you know, their perspective and there's mine, but we're supposed to teach about the same things. We're supposed to teach and share the same gospel. Very confusing.

John Dehlin [00:47:42] Yeah. So again, putting partisanship aside, it sounds like BYU students and even fellow missionaries in the MTC and mission presidents felt totally comfortable expressing public elation at Donald Trump's being voted into office. Yeah, you probably would not have felt comfortable expressing public regret or remorse about your views of, of, of that same outcome.

Saane Siale [00:48:11] Oh yeah, 100% did not feel comfortable. Did not feel like there was a space to express dismay or disagreement or disappointment, even if anything, that I, I probably would have been shamed if I had I expressed that, or at least that's what I thought. That's how I felt. And so it was very much like, and again, obviously, if you understand my upbringing, I was not afraid to speak up, I was not afraid to share my beliefs. But here I was not feeling comfortable to do that because so much of my community and people that I was surrounded by at that time were so against things that I believed in, especially with the Black Lives Matter movement and just seeing the hostility that Donald Trump incited and instill. And again, people may disagree with me and whatnot, but I visibly felt like, I felt that, that fear that this, it almost, at least for me, the way that I describe it when I Think back to, you know, Trump era and that time of his election and him running for in the presidential election. It just felt like people were comfortable now being racist openly. Like, it wasn't like, I don't know if that makes sense, and I don't know if Nate, if you would add to that or even disagree with that, but that's what I felt like being at byu, that now people around me were now more comfortable because of Trump's influence to be openly anti immigration or being openly racist. And so to me, that instilled this hostility in me and this fear of how is this possible? And we, and we all see that we believe in Christ like that. That literally did not make any sense to me.

John Dehlin [00:50:04] Because in your mind, your activism was rooted in both Christianity and Mormonism, 100%. So that must have been so disorienting and disheartening for you.

Saane Siale [00:50:16] Yes, it definitely was. And I mean, and even within the Polynesian community, there weren't people literally with my cultural background that were as vocal. And I know that there are, but did I see them? Did I hear from them? Did I gain support, garner support from people from my ethnic, racial community? I did not. And so that was another layer of the loneliness and the isolation that I felt where I saw people that looked like me, that shared the same culture as me, support the majority white perspective, who supported Donald Trump, who. Whose parents voted for Donald Trump, who openly, you know, talked about, you know, their homophobia, their transphobia. And they were proud of that because, again, it was right within the church, right? They had scripture and, or words from the prophet or whatever it was, words from apostles that supported those ideologies. So there was no reason to think differently or to challenge those ideas. And so again, here I am, you know, being a Pacific Islander woman, being a Polynesian woman, and not finding support from my own community and also not finding support from the overall majority white community. And so this very, like, where do I go? Where do I fit in as someone who was as progressive as I was at the time and still trying to reconcile staying in the church.

John Dehlin [00:51:43] So were you miserable your freshman year at byu or was there also good stuff?

Saane Siale [00:51:50] It was a mixture. I mean, obviously there. I mean, I loved my roommates. Luckily, I never experienced racism within my living space. That's something that I'm really grateful for because I know other friends of mine didn't have that same experience. So I was very fortunate to have really good, supportive people. Again, did we have the same beliefs or. No, it was, it was always a conversation that was kind of avoided and kind of like, oh, this beating around the bush kind of thing. And so I. I had kind of learned to just not bring up, like, what I genuinely thought unless you were somebody that I trusted with that information. But I mean, obviously there were positive experience experiences here and there. But, I mean, overall, yeah, it was a really difficult time. And I don't think I let people into that. I don't think people really understood how difficult it was because I'm also naturally a person that doesn't want to show when I struggle. And so I'm sure there are people that, you know, who knew me back from freshman year who would. Who would have never thought that it was miserable. But yeah, it definitely was for majority. I think I just did my best to hide it because I was already there. I already got this full ride, you know, scholarship. It's paying for my school. My parents don't have the capabilities to pay for my schooling, so I'm kind of like, I'm already here, I'm stuck, so I might as well make the best of it. And so that was kind of like my mentality at least the first year prepping for a mission.

John Dehlin [00:53:25] Did you have any romantic experiences that freshman year?

Saane Siale [00:53:28] No, I did not. Okay. Poor dating experiences, but nothing? Yeah. Nothing in terms of interests? No.

John Dehlin [00:53:37] Okay. Okay.

Saane Siale [00:53:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:39] Did you meet Nate or any other people of color that freshman year?

Saane Siale [00:53:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:43] And make friendships there. Did you find a way to find a community of people of color?

Saane Siale [00:53:49] Yes, Yes, I definitely did. Through the Multicultural Student Services office. They have obviously different cultural programs, so like BYU Luau, which obviously is a celebration for Polynesian culture and communities also. They even have like, Fiesta, which celebrates Latin American and BYU Perspectives, which is like, on black history. And so, yeah, I found people who would later on become like, really close friends through the Multicultural Student Services office. And also just through just being involved as much as I could possibly be. I was obviously super involved in high school. And so that kind of naturally happened for me in my freshman year of byu, but that was obviously kind of cut short because I obviously was. I already had the mentality that I would go on a mission. And so even though I was trying to be involved, I was also in the back of my mind, well, I'm going to take an almost two year

John Dehlin [00:54:52] break for school and really quickly, I'm sure. Let's just say it's 2015. Some parents of color are asking BU administration, hey, is this place okay for my student of color? I could imagine the administrators going, oh, yeah, we've got the Multicultural Service center, and they can just find who they want there. And it's a great community to support our students of color. Is that like, did that meet your needs? You know what I mean? Like, was that like, oh, yeah, I was great, because I had that or did it not? And you can answer this, too. Does that. Or there's the Black Student Union, which. Did that exist in 2015?

Saane Siale [00:55:36] Yeah, it did.

John Dehlin [00:55:37] Okay. And so, like, if administrators would go, we're great with people of color. Look, we've got these student. These student groups as students of color. How would you say that wasn't enough or meeting your needs if those groups existed?

Saane Siale [00:55:52] Right. So, yes, those groups did exist. Can I say that it met my needs? No, I can't see that.

John Dehlin [00:55:59] Why not? They have a luau. I might be a little bit cheeky,

Beau Oyler [00:56:07] but it feels a little bit like, no, I'm cool. I've got a gay uncle.

John Dehlin [00:56:11] Yeah. All right.

Beau Oyler [00:56:12] Come on.

John Dehlin [00:56:13] I wanted to hear.

Beau Oyler [00:56:14] Yeah.

Saane Siale [00:56:15] No, I mean. And yeah, of course, like, I can. I can see administration of people saying, like, oh, we have these things. And it's just like, that's once in a year. That's like, yeah. And, And, And. And mind you, I led the tongan section for BYU Lua in 2019. And most of my family, like, all the costuming and all of that, like, my family did that. Like, my family members in Utah, there was no funding that was given to me. I had to raise that funding on my own. So even just the act of me sharing my culture, that was extra work that I had to do. That was volunteer work, if we really want to be honest, that I had to do.

John Dehlin [00:56:54] You're doing BYU community a favor.

Saane Siale [00:56:56] It's not doing you a favor, exactly. It wasn't BYU putting this on in a culturally appropriate way. It was them giving this the space to do it and telling us, do it. Go do it. And for me, it's just like, there's so many logistics that go into, especially when we're talking about cultural dance, cultural music. There has to be sacred respect when we do that. And obviously, obviously, I'm grateful that they entrusted us students to do that. I think that was important. But at the same time, I mean, like, there were so many aspects of my BYU experience where you could have a white student that could just be a student. Whereas for me, I was a student, but I was leading this section, trying to put on the show. I am trying to lead diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts on the side. I'm also trying to give insight on this and that. And I'm not being paid for any of this. This is all extra time that I'm having to make to help BYU be a better place. But it wasn't a good place for me to begin with, coming into it. Does that make sense? Nate, what would you like say and add to that?

Nate Byrd [00:58:10] Honestly, something very similar. To be a conscious person of color at BYU, like a student of color at BYU is to essentially be a full time on call 247 DEI consultant.

Saane Siale [00:58:23] Yes.

Nate Byrd [00:58:23] Because whenever they need something, whenever something happens, the Black Student Union email is going to blow up. Whenever there's an incident or whenever somebody needs something from you, if they need you to come and offer your opinion on something in some department, they're always going to reach out to the students of color, but they're never willing to provide anything for that. You know, the black students, all those, all those things like luau fiesta, Black Student Union, the multicultural students office, they don't exist because of byu. They exist in spite of byu. Like, they exist because students like sane are there to help keep things going, to help keep things running. And they're willing to do that without being paid. We'd be multimillionaires if we got paid for all the work that we did at BYU. You know, I mean, 60, 70 hours a week. You know, the time that I spent as Black Student Union president, you know, I did a lot of that. I put a lot of my own money, thousands of dollars into keeping the Black Student Union afloat because there was no funding from the university. You know, if you went to a meeting, they had a meeting every two weeks. It was like some kind of meeting for all the club presidents. If you went to that, if you went to, I think, two of those a month, then they would give you, I think, $25 for the semester or something like that, or $50 for the semester. But you had to go twice a month for the whole semester to get that $50. And if I'm trying to take care of 30, 40, 50 black students, $50 is not going to go very far. You know, so I was spending a lot of my own money for my own work. And on top of that, going to panels and talking, you know, meeting with leaders of different departments and with the university president. And, you know, those kind of things, they add up, especially when you're trying to be a student.

Saane Siale [01:00:04] And the thing is, too, I never. It wasn't until after, like, I had done so much of this work that somebody, somebody outside of, you know, my BYU Experienced. She literally asked me, I'm like, you did that for free? And it wasn't until that point where I realized that, oh my gosh, I was carrying a full time job that an unpaid, full time job on top of being a student, on top of trying to keep up with my callings, on top of again, trying to take care of other students who saw me as a resource, but then also me trying to find other resources. And yeah, there's just this domino effect of so many things that I had never considered that shouldn't have been my normal as a college student.

John Dehlin [01:00:57] So what I'm hearing is that the few and paltry student groups or services that were offered to students of color at BYU were kind of run on the backs of these student of color almost through a little bit of exploitation. Is that what I'm hearing?

Nate Byrd [01:01:15] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] It's not something that the administration would go look at the great things we do. They wouldn't have space to do that. It would be more. Yeah, these students find a way to try and support each other at. Not a lot of help with. Not a lot of help from us.

Saane Siale [01:01:29] Yeah, for sure. And even the faculty of color that do that are at byu, I know they see the same issues and they obviously also experience, you know, the weight of all that, you know, BYU lacks and hasn't done on their shoulders as well. And so, I mean, yeah, there are a lot of faculty that, you know, I admire and my heart goes out to them as well because they're still there. I'm not. And seeing that too as well is almost kind of like with students like me and Nate and even like the rest of Black Menaces, you know, it's kind of like this archetype of this student that. Right. Who cares so much and who cares so deeply and wants to change things. But then when you really look through, look at it in from a different way, it is exploitation almost it 100% is because I mean like Nate said, like having to use your own funds. Same with me, like when I led that section in 2019, that literally came from most of my pocket. And at that time, I mean like I'm not the most financially stable person either. And I mean I grew up in an apartment my entire life. You know, my parents were renters, never owned a home. But here I am trying to do all these like all these multiple things, trying to balance that when that shouldn't have been the case. And so again, I think there are well intentioned, good hearted people at BYU that are trying to Open up access to resources. But does it meet the needs of the student populations that really need that help? I still think it's still far from meeting those needs.

Nate Byrd [01:03:23] It was almost like being a, I don't know, I could be way off on this, but it almost was like being a bishop, but you didn't have a budget where like we were given stewardship over people of color at the university because the university is not going to look out for them. The only reason I learned about Black Student Union is because people invited me to it. And a lot of people, if you talk to them in Black Student Union, they'll say, oh, I found out about this from a friend because the university doesn't do anything to help promote those.

Beau Oyler [01:03:47] Right?

Saane Siale [01:03:47] Yes.

Nate Byrd [01:03:48] That's probably the same way with others. And you know, my, we had weekly activities, but also there was a lot that we did outside of that. I hosted at my own home many times and, you know, spent a lot of time planning and in different meetings and things like that. And so it was almost like, again, I could be way off, but it felt like being a bishop where you had stewardship over all these people, but there are also no resources to help you do that.

John Dehlin [01:04:12] Right?

Saane Siale [01:04:13] Yeah, that's a great way to describe it.

John Dehlin [01:04:15] So by the end of your freshman year, you did two semesters before your mission.

Saane Siale [01:04:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:20] Sony. What kept you from just going, wait a minute, if this is Jesus's one true university, if this is God's one true church that Jesus leads and this is their university and it's so incredibly inhospitable to people like me, what kept you from just going, wait a minute, there must be a problem with the church. Maybe the church isn't true. The last thing I'm going to do is now go be a two year to pay to be a full time salesman or missionary for the church for two years in a church that couldn't even give me a healthy freshman year at their university, what kept you from just saying, nope, timeout. I'm going to pause my BYU experience. I'm going to go home. Maybe I'm going to consider a transfer to Berkeley or Stanford or some other ucla, whatever, some other great university, and reconsider my membership in this church that feels completely hostile, frankly to people like me. What kept that from happening to you at the end of your freshman year versus becoming a full time salesperson or missionary for the church?

Saane Siale [01:05:38] Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, honestly, I saw the mission as a pause from all of that. When I think about, you know, the difficult and negative experiences. For my freshman year at byu, I saw the mission as like a way out, at least for that time being. So that's what I would first say. On the other hand, it really just comes back to coming from a war that was very progressive. That's the way that I grew up Mormon. And so for me, for me at the time, I kind of reconciled it as the Jesus Christ that I believe in is not the one that they believe in. That was like my understanding, we believe in two different versions of Christ, and I believe that my version of Christ is actually the true one. So that was kind of like the way that I kind of justified still staying and still trying to reconcile. And still in my mind, it was just, oh, they just haven't caught up to me yet. To my understanding, all of byu, obviously, that was like the way that I viewed it as eventually they'll understand and see the Christ that I see and why and how that influences what I believe in. That's what I would say got me through my freshman year and what made me decide to continue to pursue a mission, because, again, I saw the mission as another opportunity to change, you know, this church culture and this church membership for the better. Like, I saw the mission as an opportunity to continue doing that, as I was already doing that growing up in the church. And so, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:16] Well, I can almost see it as a. As a form of cognitive dissonance management to say, well, it must just be byu. I mean, the church is still true. I mean, my ward was awesome.

Saane Siale [01:07:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:27] BYU just must be messed up, right?

Saane Siale [01:07:30] Yeah, it's not the church for sure. Yeah, I make sure for sure. Yeah. I think at least what got me through was. Yeah. Was having the idea that, gosh, BYU just must not be, you know, what I thought it would be, and it's clearly not. And so it might just be this isolated bubble pocket of people that think this way and not. And not use that to judge the entire world or the entire membership of the church.

Nate Byrd [01:08:00] Right.

John Dehlin [01:08:00] Yeah. So how was your mission?

Mission Call, MTC, and Serving a Mission

Saane Siale [01:08:05] Oh, man, my mission. Goodness. I have such a mixture of feelings. I still remember when I got my call even going back from my patriarchal blessing and. And finding out that, you know, I'm a part of the tribe of Manasseh. And then.

John Dehlin [01:08:30] And my patriarchy talk about that.

Saane Siale [01:08:34] And in my patriarchal blessing, it talks about how I would serve people from my tribe. And I thought that was interesting. And I didn't realize it at the time, but once I got my mission call, it kind of made sense. Because I obviously read it. I'm like, oh, I'm going to Tahiti, another island within the. Within the South Pacific. Polynesian island, as a matter of fact. And so it kind of like this circle of life moment for me where I'm like, oh, wow. Now I'm, like, going to be around people like me, people that, you know, are Polynesian as well.

John Dehlin [01:09:07] Can I. Can I just note. And I don't want to impose this on. Oh, yeah, but, like, this idea of, like, you're. We, as predominantly white Mormons, are assigned memberships in ancient tribes, but that they're Israeli or Jewish tribes, but somehow we're in the blood of Israel, so someone's a. Some white guy. Some old white guy is assigning us to be a membership of a tribe from 2,000 years ago. Yet your ancestors were literally parts of tribes. Yes, right.

Saane Siale [01:09:44] Yes, they were.

John Dehlin [01:09:46] And, you know, there were talking tribes. Right. They were Jewish tribes. They weren't white tribes. And yet some older white dude is giving you a tribal assignment.

Saane Siale [01:09:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:56] Did. Did that. Did the weirdness of that register to

Saane Siale [01:09:59] you at all at the time? It did not.

John Dehlin [01:10:01] It's just like, of course I'm Manasseh. What the heck is Manasseh? Or in my case, Ephraim. Those are our tribes. But you come from a tribal culture like that?

Saane Siale [01:10:12] Yes, 100%.

John Dehlin [01:10:13] There's some weird irony there.

Saane Siale [01:10:15] No, there definitely is weird irony there. Did I realize that weird irony at the time? I totally didn't, because, again, I. There was so much that I kind of just not. I mean, ignored. There's just a lot of things that I kind of just accepted as they came because. And again, all of those things were just extra things that came with the gospel. But for me, the only part that mattered to me, the only thing that had sustenance was Christ. Everything else was kind of just added on Mormonism, things that you do, but not necessarily. I believe that I am a part of the tribe of Manasseh, that I had no connection to, that. It was just kind of like, oh, okay, cool. But.

John Dehlin [01:10:57] But there's a downplaying of your cultural heritage, because your dad literally worked for the King of Tonga, for sure.

Saane Siale [01:11:02] No. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:03] And. But. But you're not thinking of your Tongan heritage. You're thinking of, like, I'm becoming more and more white Mormon every day. I don't know.

Saane Siale [01:11:12] Yeah. I mean, I don't think I looked at it in that way, because, again, I mean, the fabric of Tongan culture is. Is Christ. Like I mentioned in the flag, the Blood of Christ and white representing the purity of Christ and. And him being perfect. And so. So me focusing on Christ, I was honoring my culture like, that those two were one and the same. It wasn't necessarily me becoming more of, like, a white Mormon, because all the white Mormons that I saw at BYU didn't believe in the things that I believed in. They didn't believe in Black Lives Matter. They didn't believe in queer rights. They didn't believe in inclusive immigration policies. And so for me, I was not trying to become more like them, if that makes sense, because for me, that. That did not fit together. What, you know, grew. You know, I guess my. My love and dedication to the gospel was just my understanding of Christ and how. And that, like I said, was. Was intertwined with being Tongan.

John Dehlin [01:12:15] Okay, And I'll just. I just want to end with this little small point that even as. As we're all raised Mormon, when Bo and I were assigned to be in the tribe of Ephraim, and you were assigned to be in the tribe of Manasseh, why. Why were you assigned Manasseh but us Ephraim? Do you have an idea? I mean, why didn't the patriarch assign you Ephraim?

Saane Siale [01:12:46] Right. I mean, that's. That's honestly a question that I never. I never asked myself. I truly didn't. I had always been taught that it made sense that I was in the tribe of Manasseh because Polynesian people, Pacific Islanders, were part of the tribe of Manasseh. So it made sense. But in terms of, like, understanding why that was the case or why it was different from other people never really talked about that. I was never taught about it. That was never a conversation that came up in depth.

John Dehlin [01:13:14] Nate, I'm trying to remember, were you assigned a tribe in your patriarchal blessing?

Nate Byrd [01:13:19] Yeah, I was.

John Dehlin [01:13:19] And it was.

Nate Byrd [01:13:20] It was Ephraim.

John Dehlin [01:13:21] Okay, so you were Ephraim.

Nate Byrd [01:13:23] Okay, but my parents were Manasseh.

John Dehlin [01:13:25] Okay, see, it doesn't make sense. They're your parents.

Beau Oyler [01:13:30] Mine is the tribe of Ephraim, and it specifically says, the more worthy son. Whoa.

John Dehlin [01:13:36] Yeah, because that's what I'm kind of getting at is like.

Beau Oyler [01:13:39] Like, literally in my blessing.

Saane Siale [01:13:40] Okay, yeah, I see what you mean.

Beau Oyler [01:13:41] Here's why. Ephraim.

Nate Byrd [01:13:43] Interesting.

Beau Oyler [01:13:44] The more worthy son.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] Darkness in Mormonism equated with less valiance with sin, with wickedness, so whites need to have the distinction of Ephraim.

Saane Siale [01:13:56] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [01:13:57] People of color need to have the distinction generally. Vanessa. Although, Nate, you got some sort of exception, but not your parents. Like, I just. I gotta call that out.

Saane Siale [01:14:06] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:14:07] But to you, at the time, you're just going with it.

Saane Siale [01:14:10] Yes, exactly. Just going with it. But again, it is true. Like, for me personally, coming from a tribal culture, it's obviously ironic when we think about that, and people don't truly think about those kinds of connections also. But, yeah, I mean, going back to my mission and what that experience was like. Yeah, it was a mixture of things. Again, my experience in mtc, oh, my gosh. Was not the greatest. It was, honestly. Yeah. I look back and I'm like, wow, that was. Can't believe that I thought that. That, you know, not that I thought the things that happened there were okay.

John Dehlin [01:14:51] But so hard about the fcc.

Saane Siale [01:14:54] So many experiences were, you know, surrounded by white missionaries who made, like, very, like, racially motivated comments. Or again, the thing with the presidential election and people talking about how grateful they are to Trump that he's going to end Black Lives Matter because it's a ridiculous movement and black people don't need that. Things like that that people would openly talk about in the mtc. It enraged me because it was so opposite from what it meant to be Christlike in my mind at the time. And so, again, you had those. I mean, there was literally a time where obviously, you can't leave your companion. Right. You're supposed to be with them. And I literally left my companion to go cry in the bathroom because I could. I was so angry, and I was so. But I didn't feel like I could say anything. And whenever I tried, I would just. I would just break down, which was so unlike me because I never. I was never afraid.

Beau Oyler [01:15:55] What had happened between your high school years and then you went to this one year at byu, and now you're on your mission, crying alone in the bathroom because you don't feel like you can say anything. That's not. The Sunny that I knew in high school who was literally on the street saying what she felt.

Saane Siale [01:16:10] Yeah.

Beau Oyler [01:16:10] What happened during that year?

Saane Siale [01:16:11] Gosh, that's a really good question.

John Dehlin [01:16:14] Sounds like you learned to be silent.

Nate Byrd [01:16:16] BYU has a way of doing that. That, honestly, you're surrounded by people. When it feels hostile all the time, you just kind of learn to protect yourself.

Saane Siale [01:16:24] Yes.

Nate Byrd [01:16:25] And you kind of close down. And so I think that's. That could be part of what happened.

Saane Siale [01:16:28] 100%. Exactly what Nate. I think, honestly, just. It got to the point where I had to pick my battles, and my battle was preserving myself, because every part of my identity, every part that I had fought for Every part that I was so proud to share was being questioned and challenged by everyone around me. And I'm talking about people, again, who shared the same religion and shared the same faith with me, who was reading the same scriptures as I was. And so again, it was just like, I'm trying to reconcile. I'm in the same room of people that are supposed to be right, this unified community. That was something that I always thought would be the case. And now I'm in this space where that's not true at all. How do I make sense of that? And again, too, I would say as well, being on the mission and even previous to my mission, I always felt like this example, like this perfect example of what it's like to be a good member. And so there was also this sense of responsibility that I placed on myself that I had to make this work. I had to make this mission thing work because, well, I mean, I was one of the few, at least in the stake, that was even serving at the time or was prepared to serve. I even did a whole year, not a whole year, a whole summer working at the temple before my mission, before I actually left, I attended temple sessions with my dad. So, like, I was doing all these things with the sense of responsibility that this has to be my end game. This has to work out. Even though inside me I'm thinking, how is this supposed to work? Because it's not working out for me internally. And so. Yeah. Does that answer your question?

Beau Oyler [01:18:22] Yeah.

Saane Siale [01:18:22] Okay.

Beau Oyler [01:18:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:23] Like, this idea of silence is a form of self preservation when we know that silence is kind of deadly in terms of, like, internalizing and your distress and your discomfort. It's toxic to your mental health, and yet it's perceived as a form of self preservation. That's. That's hard and sad.

Nate Byrd [01:18:44] Yeah, I think I talked about that on my.

Saane Siale [01:18:46] My episode is more.

Nate Byrd [01:18:47] Yeah, it's. It's because if you say things and you're constantly, you know, it's already a hostile environment. And then if you say things, that just ostracizes you even more because then people don't want to be around you.

Saane Siale [01:18:58] Exactly.

Nate Byrd [01:18:59] And, you know, the. The best or like the epitome of your college experience is meeting people, making friends. And so that's kind of the expectation is to go in and. And to find people who. That you can get along with. And so, you know, if you quickly discover that in order to do that you have to change parts of yourself, then you kind of just learn to suppress those things. And it's not healthy. But It's a way of self preservation and trying to just have a decent college experience at byu.

John Dehlin [01:19:29] Self preservation and self harm simultaneously at

Nate Byrd [01:19:32] the same time for sure.

Saane Siale [01:19:34] All in the name of survival, honestly. Yeah. And so obviously my MTC experience was, I mean, not the greatest, I mean, and then also key to my experience at mtc, my brother had a very serious suicide attempt. It was very serious. He had overdosed on huge amount of pills and he was placed in a coma. And Bo, you can speak to that experience as well. I've talked about it with my brother and we have a close relationship. But the reason why I bring that up, I remember being in mtc and mind you, it was very difficult for me to leave on my mission because that meant me leaving my family. And if you remember the role that I had in my family, I was basically the third parent. And so this meant me literally leaving my siblings to fend for themselves and I wasn't going to be there to protect them. And just how much that involvement looked like my brother in his high school graduation. I negotiated and argued with his principal to let my brother walk at graduation because there was a lot of discrimination against my brother and his experience in high school. I was the person that went in and talked with him to advocate for my brother. And I only bring that up to illustrate just how much I was involved in my siblings lives and how much of a protector I was. So being in the MTC and now getting this email from my mom who's asking me to tell her what to do. And I'm sitting there thinking, how can I tell you what to do? You're my mom. I don't know what to do. I've never been in this situation. I'm in the mtc, I'm thousands of miles away. I have nowhere near. I can't even go visit my brother in the hospital. And at that point I had no idea if he was going to make it or not. All these questions are swirling through my mind and again this idea that. And there's a lot of sadness that I have for that part of myself and that I experience in my mind somebody, I can't remember if it was my companion at the time or somebody within my zone or district. But they had told me that you being on your mission will save your brother. That's what I was told and I believed that. And so my idea of like, you know, being on the mission, being out there serving this mission, was going to save my family, preserve them, give them blessings that I couldn't even imagine And. And so that was kind of like what kept me going. Like, so long as I'm on my mission and being as worthy as possible and doing all these things, then my family will be blessed. And. Yeah, sorry, I'm not really sure if I was answering a specific question or not, but.

John Dehlin [01:22:43] No, that's sounds like that was an important part of your MTC experience.

Saane Siale [01:22:46] Yes, 100%. Because then that. That brought in the, you know, the discussion of mental health. That was never talked about in my family growing up. It wasn't even a topic or an idea. And my brother was diagnosed with severe depression. But I don't know if he wanted to add anything to that experience, because I wasn't there.

Beau Oyler [01:23:05] Yeah, yeah, you weren't. And we were rooting that you would stay on your mission and not come home and protect your family again, because you'd always been in that role. And so there were a number of us just hoping and praying that you stay there and that you start that new chapter of your life. And we did rally around your brother. So, David, we called him Pho.

Saane Siale [01:23:30] His middle name's Celi Fo. So that's where Fo comes from.

Beau Oyler [01:23:33] And so when Pho tried to take his life, it was a very difficult experience and very sad. And I think one of the learnings from that experience, you know, as I sat in the hospital for hours with him, and your family members would come in and out and would call and we would talk about what to do, was there was this mental distance between your parents going, but we gave him everything. Like, he has the gospel of Jesus Christ. He's made covenants, he's baptized. He has the priesthood. He has everything that he could possibly want to be happy. And yet here he is laying in a coma in the hospital after trying to take his life. We can't understand how that's even possible. And I think that they began that process that day of, like, what is not working? And it's a process that I think a lot of us parents in the church go through, right where our kids are going through something, and we're just thinking, why isn't this working? This is supposed to work. And there was David on a hospital bed. Clearly something is not working.

John Dehlin [01:24:51] The plan of happiness, right? Supposed to be the plan of happiness.

Saane Siale [01:24:54] Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was a rough time. I am sorry. I'm trying not to get emotional,

Nate Byrd [01:25:04] Sa.

Saane Siale [01:25:44] I think for me, what's coming up is just I'm so grateful that obviously the outcome was not me. Having had lost her brother, I'm So glad to say that he's still here today and, excuse me, Mentally doing better and whatnot. But I think there's just a part of me that grieves for that version of myself on the mission because I was so protective over my family. Just the idea that my parents didn't know what to do. And here I was with this. This pact to bring other families into the gospel. Like that was more important than protecting my family at the time. And so, I don't know, it's. Sometimes I don't often think about that time because I forget just how much in despair I was because I couldn't physically be there with my brother or be there with my family to help with that guidance. And maybe in a way, it did teach me to kind of, like, let go of that responsibility that I had placed in myself for so long, but obviously didn't make it any easier. And honestly, going into my mission, It's so mixed because there's so many parts to it that are really beautiful and things that I'll never forget and things that I truly appreciate. And I know I would have. Would have. I wouldn't have been able to experience it any other way other than through the experience of serving a mission. One of those being actually one of my investigators. This ties back to my brother's experience. One of my investigators. He was progressing really well with lessons, but something had tragically happened where, you know, his girlfriend's family, he was living with his girlfriend's family. They had a child together. They had kicked him out because I can't exactly remember the reason why. But it was a mixture of, like, him with his own past and dealing with addiction. And I remember getting a phone call 6am One morning. And I knew in my heart the things that he was saying. He was basically giving us like a goodbye call. But I knew exactly when I got that call that he was going to attempt to take his own life. And I remember pleading with him to meet with us within the next 10 minutes. And I remember, you know, calling. Luckily at that time, I was living right next to the AP at the time and so called up some of the elders. It was just perfect timing. And I asked them to, you know, give a priesthood blessing. And it was the shortest priesthood blessing, but in it, it was everything that he needed to say to say, and everything that, you know, the investigator at the time needed to hear. And all he said in the blessing was just that God wants you to stay. That's literally what he said. And I just remember we're all Bawling, and he's bawling and crying. And he had later revealed to me that that day he was planning to take his own life. And hearing that God wanted him to stay was enough to not choose that. And so, again, those are experiences that, you know, I. I cherish. I. I don't look back at that in regret because that investigator I saw, my brother. Oh, wow. Did not expect to get emotional, did not excuse me. And so obviously I had, you know, those formative experiences on the mission. And at the same time, it was also difficult in the sense that I was really, you know, challenging and confronting with myself. Do I really believe in this? It even came to the point where I would alter lessons, I would alter the way that I teach, that I teached people the way that I taught, because over time, throughout my mission, I. I didn't believe in certain things that we were asked to preach about and teach about.

John Dehlin [01:30:40] And so do you mind sharing what some of those.

Beau Oyler [01:30:43] If.

John Dehlin [01:30:43] If it can come to your mind and thanks for being so vulnerable. What were some of the Mormon or Christian doctrines or teachings that you were struggling to feel good about as a Mormon missionary?

Doctrinal Struggles and Racial History Discovered on Mission

Saane Siale [01:30:56] For sure. For one, the law of chastity in terms of, like, same sex marriage. Just LGBTQ couples. I had taught a lesbian couple on my mission, and I told my companion, I'm not going to teach that their love and their relationship is wrong. I don't believe in that. I don't know if my companion really agreed with that, but she was. She kind of had the personality where she was just more mellow and quiet and kind of followed whatever I did. Not saying that that's a good thing, but it allowed me to kind of have the freedom to do things like that. So, yeah, when I taught that lesbian couple, I never denounced their relationship or the fact that they were both women together, living together. Never, ever did I bring that up. If anything, I was supportive of it. And they were quite shocked because they had been wanting to take missionary lessons, but those missionaries had ceased and stopped teaching them because they didn't want to stop being in relationship. And so they were surprised that I was like the first missionary that told them that, oh, no, I actually believe in your love. I believe in your relationship. I'm okay with that. And you can believe in Christ, too, and still do that. That was a surprise to them. And so things like that I did on the mission.

John Dehlin [01:32:24] But what's your end game as a Mormon missionary? Are you going to baptize this lesbian couple into the church?

Saane Siale [01:32:29] Good question.

John Dehlin [01:32:33] Did you think about the end game there?

Saane Siale [01:32:36] Honestly, no. And again, baptism was not my end game. For other missionaries, it was. And maybe, Nate, you could speak to that as well, and what that was like on your mission. But baptism was never the soul and end goal for me. It was just more so introducing the Christ that I grew anew to love. That was my goal. That was. And honestly, that. That's what really saved, like, the relation, I mean, not the relationship, the experience with my mission, because so much of it was so difficult and in some ways somewhat traumatic. And the reason why you said word specifically. A lot of investigators that I taught, people that I taught were sexual assault victims, and that was a huge thing. And again, the sexual predators, the perpetrators of this sexual abuse and sexual violence were church leaders, bishops. I'm talking about stake presidents, and I'm talking about women coming forward to me as I'm teaching them, expressing this to me. And here I am as a missionary, my early 20s, 20, 21, and I'm. And I'm trying to figure out, what do I do with this information? Do I go to the police? Do I go to my mission president? Like, you know what I mean? Like, all these thoughts are going through my mind and really what was important to me at that time, which is why I say baptism was not what was most important to me. What was important to me was protecting people, was helping them feel loved, helping them feel heard, helping them feel validated in what they were going through. And so that's why I say, you know, the mission was such a very complicated experience for me because, you know, I witnessed these very hard things. And we didn't talk about that in the mtc. Nobody talked about what to do if your investigator comes to you and comes forward about sexual assault or sexual violence. Nobody talk. You know, nobody brings up when. I mean, I had met, you know, somebody who. Who was so angry at me and my companion because he was so adamant that we were representing a racist church that wasn't taught to us in the MTC about how to handle those very real and honest opinions and conversations. So all of these things, it just felt like I looked back to my MTC experience where this was supposed to be this preparation time for me. And here I am out in the field, and I felt like I was set up for failure. There was nothing set in stone, set in place for me to, well, for one, adequately support these people that were going through these very traumatic things. And then what was I supposed to do when the perpetrators of this abuse were church leaders, the sexual the sexual abuse.

John Dehlin [01:35:32] Yeah, yeah.

Saane Siale [01:35:33] And so, I mean, luckily, there were certain leaders here and there that I felt like I could trust and who felt very concerned, deeply concerned that these people's. These women's stories were coming forward and wanted to help. But what. That looks like so limited, you know,

John Dehlin [01:35:51] so we're talking 2016 here. Like, you know, you could. You could sort of give the Mormon Church a pass for 20 or 30 or 40 years ago, but, like, by 2016, the gospel topics essays had all come out. The church had made major pivots away from its harmful LGBTQ policies. Not all of them, but some of them. It was trying to become more women friendly. It was trying to own up to its problematic history. Even its Gospel Topics essay on race and the priesthood was basically trying to say that was those policies were wrong. Now, you know, now. Now we don't really believe or teach that stuff anymore. So an idealist would have imagined you being sat down at the MTC saying, you're going to get questions about the priesthood ban and racism and even Book of Mormon racism. Here's what we believe now. Here's how to own up to it. But here's how to deal with those questions. Here's the history.

Saane Siale [01:36:55] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [01:36:55] Here's how to own up to it, and here's how to deal with it. You'll. You'll be asked, You'll. You'll come. You'll come in contact with LGBTQ members. Here's the stuff that was taught in the past. We don't believe that anymore. Here's a more loving, affirming, LGBT kind of approach. There are probably some limits, but here's how to deal with it. Now go forth and you're educated, number one. And then number two, here's how to deal with those things. And you're saying you never got that type of education?

Saane Siale [01:37:21] Absolutely not. And I know for a fact that that's not the education that they offer at the mtc. And that really enraged me, being on my mission, because it just felt like. So you want me to share this watered down, very skewed perspective of the church and expect people to just commit for the rest of their lives to this religion without knowing this very real history that is connected with the church? That was very problematic for me on my mission, which is why I felt that it was important to. And I think, in a way, here and there, started to kind of find my voice again of. Of being confident in, you know, teaching that couple who were, you know, lesbian, being able to teach other people and. And share with them and show them a different way of, like, being a member, being a representative of Christ. And so I think that's what led me to kind of shift the way that I did things as a missionary. I mean, even as on the mission as a whole. Again, same thing. I will say that I'm grateful for my mission presidents. I felt like they were more progressive than what I had thought and so.

John Dehlin [01:38:41] Than your BYU experience?

Saane Siale [01:38:42] Exactly. Than my BYU experience. 100%. And so that was helpful as well. But still, at the same time, it's. It's still, you know, white men leading preceding all of these meetings and church leaders coming in and then. And obviously even seeing elders struggling with, you know, pornography addiction and. Or just, you know, sexual frustration or whatever. I mean, I was very aware of that. How are you.

John Dehlin [01:39:15] How are you aware of the elders struggling? Masturbation as a missionary?

Saane Siale [01:39:21] Yeah, as a missionary. Elders. Okay. I was kind of like the missionary on the mission where, like, people just, like, opened up to about everything. Did I ask? No, I didn't ask. But I was just kind of like that missionary that people just, like, entrusted with, like, very vulnerable information, very personal information. And so it kind of just. I just kind of, like, had that reputation on the mission. And so I just happened to know a lot about what people were struggling with.

John Dehlin [01:39:50] So elders would confide in you, a sister missionary, about their struggles with pornography,

Saane Siale [01:39:54] about their own struggles or struggles that other elders were dealing with and them trying to figure out how do they help them. I'm talking about elders that had, you know, posters of, like, naked women that they would hide with. Like, they're in their closets and their church clothes would cover it and trying to, you know, get like, multiple phones to. To have access, you know, to different computers or, you know, like. Like all kinds of things I was made aware of. And so, again, obviously, I also had a perception of what missionaries were like and would be like. So even now, even being on the mission now, I'm, like, being made aware of, like, oh, no, this is not the idea of a missionary that I thought would be. And so here I am, like, everything that I thought was constantly being challenged. And, yeah, I just would have never

John Dehlin [01:40:50] guessed that you saw me would have to be carrying that of all things, as a missionary.

Saane Siale [01:40:55] Me neither. Me neither. Trust me, I did not expect.

Beau Oyler [01:41:01] Sunny's the ultimate Sherpa, Right? That's what you gotta remember through every phase of life.

Saane Siale [01:41:06] She.

Beau Oyler [01:41:07] She is an ultimate spiritual and emotional and temporal Sherpa.

Saane Siale [01:41:12] Yeah. I am studying to be a therapist, so There you go.

Beau Oyler [01:41:15] I know.

John Dehlin [01:41:17] So people are confiding in you a lot.

Saane Siale [01:41:18] Yes, 100%. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:21] Can you share with us, you said you had your awakening or you learned about the Mormon Church's problematic racial history on your mission, is that right?

Saane Siale [01:41:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:29] How did you learn about that and what were your sources and how did you process and reconcile that, if you don't mind sharing?

Saane Siale [01:41:35] For sure. I mean, the way that I learned about it was really. And again, I can't exactly remember where in the Book of Mormon it talks about this, but the Curse of the Dark Skin. And then I remember. And in the booklet that I had, I mean, there's all kinds of books that we had on the mission. Right. Like the Preach My Gospel, True to the Faith, all these different things. And it was just through reading different texts and finding different expert excerpts. And also with. Come follow me and even looking on like the LDS website and actually seeing them talk about like, dark skin. And then also it kind of just started this rabbit hole of like, looking at what, like, how it really happened and what was really said by prophets at the time and the priesthood ban and even like the temple, but also the difference with like, how Fijians were allowed, like to hold a priesthood, but then not people of African descent.

John Dehlin [01:42:43] And Fijians are very dark skinned.

Saane Siale [01:42:45] Very dark skinned. That's very typical of Fijians and Fijian

John Dehlin [01:42:50] people coming from Western Europe.

Saane Siale [01:42:52] Right, Exactly. Exactly. Right. It doesn't. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:56] Wouldn't they share the same ancestry as. As African Americans and as Brazilian, you know, Brazilian Mormons? I mean, Africa. Right, right. Or not.

Nate Byrd [01:43:08] Potentially.

Saane Siale [01:43:09] Yeah, essentially. And so, and reading that and studying that and seeing just like, okay, this is not only just about, like, darker skin. This is about an actual people, an actual group of people that was literally, the door was closed on them in terms of quote, unquote, receiving blessings and having the full access to the gospel, as we say. And I had such a huge issue with that. It was, it was kind of this epiphany that I had where it's just like all the racism that I saw through the US American history, I was seeing that same racism and that same ugly history in the church. And I, and I never made that connection before. I saw it obviously with, you know, the white majority and white people in general and like just the history within the country, you know, of America. But I had never made that connection with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And at that moment I made that connection. And like I said when I brought that up and tried to spark conversation because in my mind I'm like, maybe there's something, I don't know, maybe there's something that makes this all make sense or maybe, you know, they said that it was a mistake, blah, blah, blah. And I was always shut down. I was always shut down. And like I mentioned before, you know, I felt dumb even asking about it. I was made to feel like it's a no brainer, like that's in the past and you don't need to talk about it. And it's not important to today's work, it's not important to missionary work right now. You just need to worry about sharing, you know, the message from the Book of Mormon and share the gospel, blah, blah, blah, and be representative of Christ and all those things will be made, made right in the end. You don't need to worry about that. But that obviously was not satisfactory to me at all. But at the time, again, I was already in the mindset, well, if people around me are not going to support or give me the space to, for me to have these questions, well, I'm just going to do my own thing and do it in the best way that I possibly can within the parameters of also being a worthy missionary.

John Dehlin [01:45:17] Yeah. And Nate, I think we talked about this when you were telling your story as well, but the fact that in 20, in the 2000 teens that Mormons of color can get to their missions without sort of having this moment of like, wait, the church did what? The church excluded who? The church. Brigham Young said what? And then like in high school, at a minimum, not having that sort of like, how can this church be true with such a racist past? The fact that in 2023, Mormon kids are. Mormon kids of color are still reaching missions without ever having to confront that, that somehow it's all kept from them in the Internet age. Is, is anybody else just dumbfounded that that's still a thing?

Saane Siale [01:46:11] No. Yeah, it's shocking.

Nate Byrd [01:46:12] I think it's maybe a little bit different now, but I know when we were, when we were young, we were taught to be afraid of learning anything outside of what was, you know, officially taught in the church.

Saane Siale [01:46:21] Yes.

Nate Byrd [01:46:22] I think it was President Hinckley that talked about, oh, don't read anti Mormon literature because it'll destroy your testimony, you know, and like losing your testimony is the worst thing that can happen to you if you're as a member of the church, you know, so.

John Dehlin [01:46:31] Yes, but in this case, by anti Mormon literature, he means factual church history.

Nate Byrd [01:46:36] Right? Anti Mormon literature was anything that wasn't in a church Manual, Right, that talked about the church.

Saane Siale [01:46:42] Exactly.

Nate Byrd [01:46:43] You know, when you get to your mission and then you're all of a sudden talking to people who have something to say. You, you got to learn. Right. And then on your mission also, that's when you want to, you want to start studying the Scriptures more and getting more in depth so you can have a deeper knowledge of the scriptures that you can teach people better. And then as you do that, you come across things and you're like, no, hold on a second. That doesn't add up. These things don't line up. Right. And so, yeah, I mean, it's wild that it would take that long to learn about those things. But also they have a fail safe in place for that where they teach you not to seek out anything that they don't give you. And so it's kind of like this, this thing that feeds itself where they want you to keep your testimony and then they also make sure that you keep your testimony by telling you, by teaching you to be afraid of anything that doesn't align with, you know, with, with what you're supposed to believe.

Saane Siale [01:47:30] Yeah, and I'm glad that you brought that up because again, like, I speak of this experience as if, like, I was so confident and there's a part of me that was. But there's also the other part of me where I was deeply afraid because so much of my identity was tied to the Church. It was tied to, like I believe in, in Black Lives Matter because of Christ. That's literally like, what, how I justified everything that I believed for, believed in and fought for and stood up for. It was heavily tied to my identity as, you know, growing up lds, growing up Mormon. And so now I'm in this space where it's just like on my mission where I'm scared of what that looks like outside of the Church, because what I'm coming to find out continuously, it is going against what I believe in. And so again, there is this mixture of wanting to be confident because I had always been growing up being involved in activism and being Mormon and also the other side of that where it's just like, I don't know, a life outside of this, but these things are pushing me outside of this. I don't even know what that looks like. How can I even, you know, reconcile or, or, or make that possible? And so, and, and a lot of that I, I think I, I try to suppress during my mission just to make it through, just to get through it and to have the best possible experience. And again, I won't say that it was all negative or that it was all horrible. I mean, I love the Tahitian people. I loved the people, some of the members that I, you know, created relationships with. I have such a special place in my heart for the islands of Tahiti and what I experienced there and the people that I loved and grew to love. But yeah, again, at the same time, even serving on the mission, you know, I saw Tahitian members that were very openly homophobic, openly transphobic, openly racist, openly attributing whiteness as success. So again, these same tendencies, these same ideas that I saw in my parents, I was seeing in the vast majority of people that I was serving and working with. And so again, in my mind, I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is like on an international level, on a global level, these undertones of racism and white nationalism and white supremacy that exists on this tiny island in the South Pacific, that also blew my mind that, oh my gosh, this is not just my parents living in the Bay Area of California. This is a global thing that people believe in. And they don't. They don't check that. They don't understand fully where that comes from and how problematic that is.

John Dehlin [01:50:34] And you may have already said this, but just to be explicit, were Tahitians, Were. Were Tahitian men not allowed to hold the priesthood prior to 1978? Or were they allowed?

Saane Siale [01:50:46] They. They were allowed. So it was only people of African descent that weren't allowed. I had never seen any history in terms of Fijian, Tahitian, Tongan, Samoan people. I brought up specifically Fijian people because of them typically having darker skin. And so the idea of how they were allowed, but then not other darker skinned people.

John Dehlin [01:51:12] So Fijians were allowed?

Saane Siale [01:51:14] Yes, they were allowed.

Nate Byrd [01:51:15] And Aborigine people were allowed as well?

Saane Siale [01:51:17] Yes, Aborigine people in Australia, New Zealand were also allowed as well, but not darker skinned people of African descent. So anyone with African descent was not allowed. But other darker skinned, but obviously racially, ethnically different were allowed.

John Dehlin [01:51:37] Okay.

Nate Byrd [01:51:37] Yeah. So I think essentially the only people that weren't allowed were black Americans and then people from the African continent. Yeah, but anywhere else in the world it was okay.

Saane Siale [01:51:45] Yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:51:46] And then the church realized that many of these Brazilians had African descent that were getting baptized and were being allowed into the temple.

Saane Siale [01:51:55] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:51:56] And then they realized, oh, we've got a mess here. And I hear that was a really important influencer. And in a lot.

Saane Siale [01:52:02] That's what I've heard too. Yeah.

Nate Byrd [01:52:03] Yeah, that was a Big part of it.

John Dehlin [01:52:05] Yeah. Because it's like, oh, we better just let everyone have it because we're already giving it to people in Brazil, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we didn't realize they had African ancestry.

Saane Siale [01:52:17] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:52:17] Yeah. Okay. So. Okay, so. So what was the status of your testimony by the end of your mission? Was it on the ropes? Was it still firm?

Saane Siale [01:52:31] Hmm, that's a good question. Trying to think back to the end of my mission, I think it was still firm in certain aspects, but not in others. And so those certain aspects were just things that I was clinging onto, things that I thought would be enough to obviously still be a strong member, an active member. And I don't know if you remember that time when I came back on my mission. It was a huge celebration. Again, something I didn't ask for, I didn't want to. And I say that explicitly because there were so many parts of my mission that my parents never understood. They never saw that in my emails. And obviously I did that intentionally. I didn't share, you know, those nuances and those difficulties in my emails. It was more so just the work that I'm doing and I'm doing the best I can and here I am, and they were proud of that. But there were so many, you know, the. The shadow work that I did in terms of understanding the history of the church. My parents didn't see that. They didn't see that difficult part. And so coming back, it was very somber for me. And I had a lot of grief because I was so. I felt sad that. At the fact that, like, people like, like the lesbian couple or the, you know, the. The investigator that had mental health issues, that I was scared that, you know, future missionaries after me were kind of just going to leave them and weren't going to give them the support that I was offering them at the time when I was a missionary. And so there were multiple aspects where I was sad and I was angry about all this new information that I was learning. And again, my parents, it made me question, like, do my parents even understand this history? As far as I'm concerned, they don't. And so all these things where it's just making me question, you know, even. Even people around me in my life that, you know, are so hardcore for the church and their membership, but in my mind have gaps, have gaps to their understanding of church history. And so, yeah, it was a huge celebration. Beau was there. And I mean, I. I don't remember my homecoming talk, honestly. I just remember a lot of people came a lot of People showed up, and I really just talked about Jesus. I remember that much. Just about Christ and who he was to me and how that influenced my work. But anything, like, doctrinally specific, I didn't really talk about that. I mean, if anything, I talked about families, eternal families. But even that was still confusing to me because eternal families didn't include queer families. So that was also like. I like the idea. That's a beautiful idea, but the way that it stands within the church, it excludes so many people.

John Dehlin [01:55:46] Yeah.

Saane Siale [01:55:46] So.

John Dehlin [01:55:47] And so I'm imagining the ward was super stoked and proud of Sonny to be coming back. And I'm wondering if you had any idea that that cracks were developing.

Beau Oyler [01:56:00] No idea.

John Dehlin [01:56:00] In her faith at the time. I'm sure you were just bursting with pride.

Beau Oyler [01:56:03] Oh, yeah, no. No idea whatsoever. I mean, she came back and she was, you know, a year and a half, two years more mature. And plus the year at byu. Right. And it was just like, okay, this is Sana as an adult, and she's just as amazing as we all thought she would be. And she was. And so we were thrilled with it. And then in, you know, true Tongan form, your parents threw a party that was like, of epic proportions. And so it was like. It was kind of a whirlwind. It seemed like, where it was like you spoke and it looked like a state conference in that chapel.

Saane Siale [01:56:35] Yes. Literally.

Beau Oyler [01:56:36] I don't know how many people were there, but it broke the record. And then. And we turned around and had a party, like, you know, with the pig and the spit and the whole roasted

Saane Siale [01:56:46] pig, the whole thing, Tongan food and everything. Chicken, everything.

Nate Byrd [01:56:51] I'm sure that was very deer in the headlights.

Saane Siale [01:56:53] Oh, yes.

Nate Byrd [01:56:54] Went off my mission. Yeah. I was like. I went to my little brother's baptism and I was like, man, this is wild. My friends played gospel music, and I was just like, what is going on? I can't even imagine how a big party felt.

Saane Siale [01:57:06] No, yeah, it was, man. I was playing actress that time. Just really, just trying to appreciate because there's so much love and so much pride in what I had done. And so I wanted to give back and thank all these people at the same time. It almost felt like I was lying to myself because there's so many parts, like, I mentioned from my mission that didn't feel right. But I couldn't. I couldn't say that. I couldn't get on the pulpit and just say that I, you know, I believe in same sex marriage and all these things, and I didn't say those things. I said, what would. What was accepted by the majority, which is Jesus. And I recognized early that early on in my membership within the church, that I always brought it back to Christ. That was the only, like, central message where everybody could listen and relate to and appreciate. But again, deep down, you know, it was this. This internal struggle of how do I reconcile with this when everybody. I did everything that everybody expected me to do. I fulfilled, you know, my dad's dream. Like, my dad literally said that me serving a mission was his dream. So we're talking about, like, people's dreams in me. Like, me coming back from a mission, like I was fulfilling people's dreams. And so that was so hard because at the time, it was just like, I don't. I don't know how to reconcile this. And I. And I didn't feel confident enough to even talk about that with anyone at the time. It was just more. So I went back to school, like, a couple weeks after. After my homecoming, I went straight back to byu.

Returning Home and Confronting Faith Doubts

John Dehlin [01:58:56] So you were deeply conflicted coming home from your mission?

Saane Siale [01:58:59] I was saying, yes, but.

John Dehlin [01:59:01] But BYU and your mission had taught you to stay silent. So even though you're coming back to your ward, where you had felt most comfortable being vocal.

Saane Siale [01:59:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:11] And to your Oakland community, where you had felt most comfortable being vocal, you carried that lesson of staying silent back to your home ward.

Saane Siale [01:59:22] Yes, when I came back. Yeah.

Nate Byrd [01:59:25] Yeah.

Beau Oyler [01:59:26] And that's not the environment that we would have wanted. Right. That we. We purposely created an environment where all voices and where it's an environment of safety. But I think you have a new added layer here, which is similar to how I grew up. I wasn't. I didn't. I wasn't raised in an Orthodox family. Like, very active, but not Orthodox. I didn't learn Orthodoxy until I went on my mission.

Saane Siale [01:59:47] Yes. Yeah.

Beau Oyler [01:59:49] Right. And so here you are. A year of bathing in Orthodoxy at byu, a year and a half of bathing in Orthodoxy and being rewarded for Orthodoxy on your mission, and then coming home and feeling that disconnect of how you were raised compared to how now you've been kind of raised within that high intense environment, 100% and needing to kind of balance those two things all of a sudden.

Saane Siale [02:00:13] That's such a good way to put it for sure. Nate, did you have a thought?

Nate Byrd [02:00:17] I wanted to make sure I was going to ask. So when I came home, I kind of, like, I had never said that the church was true. That had never really, like, come out of my mouth. But sometime along my mission, I Kind of switched. And my main thing, my main teaching point became or like my main core belief, I should say, because, you know, I still taught about, you know, I still taught the lessons, but my core belief became the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true. Like the four main points, like, you know, getting baptized, stuff like that. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is true, the church isn't. And that was kind of like my core belief coming home. Would you say it was the same for you or was it, like, more complicated than that or, like, more in depth?

Saane Siale [02:00:55] For sure. I would totally agree with that. I think that was. I think that's the way that I came to reconcile coming back home and coming back into the environment was the, okay, I can still be a part of this because I believe in the gospel. I just don't believe in this institution, in this organization. And so I think that distinction and that separation helped me to come back and still feel okay. Bearing testimony, feel okay with, you know, now being a returned missionary and kind of having that label attached to me was because I made that distinction coming back. But, yeah, like, with what you said, Beau, I mean, yeah, byu. And my mission was really that, oh, my gosh, is this what it means to Mormon or blts? Because, yeah, that was never the case for me and never in the way that I grew up lds. And so, yeah, for sure. That definitely added a layer of like, is this. Is this true to me?

John Dehlin [02:01:53] But there's a difference. Nate, that's a great question. And there's a big difference between I'm no longer going to articulate the veracity or the truthfulness of the Mormon Church, and I'm going to focus on affirming my belief in Heavenly Father and in Jesus and in my Christian beliefs. There's a difference between that, what you emphasize and drawing a conclusion that this is no longer the true church, and you don't believe in Mormon prophets and you don't believe in Mormon scripture and you don't believe in the Mormon institution. And I'm guessing you hadn't quite reached disbelief. You were just no longer focusing on or emphasizing the distinctive Mormon beliefs. Is that right?

Saane Siale [02:02:40] For sure, yeah. Yeah, I would agree with that.

John Dehlin [02:02:43] Okay.

Nate Byrd [02:02:43] It's kind of like a stage where it's like in an effort to. Because you're so afraid of leaving the church, losing that testimony, that in an effort to, like, reconcile it, you say, okay, well, this doesn't make sense. I'm just going to put that on the back burner and focus on what makes sense for right now, which is Jesus Christ. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:57] Okay. Okay.

Saane Siale [02:02:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:59] So was there any point where you're like, because it doesn't sound like your mission put you in a better place than when you left byu, so was there any point where you were like, maybe I don't want to go back to byu, or was it just, it's my only choice? And were you. Was there a part of you that had been way away from BYU long enough to feel like, hey, maybe it'll be different? Maybe I'm kind of getting excited to go back? Or were you dreading it?

Saane Siale [02:03:22] That's a great question. A mixture of all of those things. I was nervous to come back to byu, but also I had been gone long enough. And again, my mission felt like a lifetime. It felt like such a far removed chapter of my life. Also, at the time, I learned two different languages. So again, I.

John Dehlin [02:03:44] Which ones?

Saane Siale [02:03:45] Tahitian and French. And so. And being around in that environment, yeah, it allowed me to feel far removed enough where going to BYU was exciting again. And it felt like, okay, now I'm, you know, I have this experience under my belt. I can go back and be more confident in what, you know, I feel and do believe in. And so, yeah, there was excitement and even, like, obviously, you know, the last conversation I had with my mission president was like, date, date, date, date, date, date. And in my mind I'm like, okay, yeah, that sounds nice. But I didn't have that experience before pre mission. And so that was at the forefront of my mind because my mission really influenced my idea of marriage. Now I was in a space where it's just like, okay, I do want to get married, I do want marriage. And now it seems a bit more possible. And maybe me having served a mission will help that. At that time, I had those thoughts going back to byu.

John Dehlin [02:04:54] Sometimes missionaries develop crushes on other fellow missionaries. Were there, like, elders that you maybe develop some crushes on or who developed crushes on you where that maybe that made you feel like romance post mission might be possible?

Saane Siale [02:05:11] Yes, that definitely happened. So there were elders that had expressed interest in me. I mean, there's not much else to say about that other than the fact that, yeah, it did. It did allow me to see myself in a light where, like, oh, okay, like, I am desirable. Like, people, you know, obviously can be interested romantically in me, and it's not a me problem. It was the environment that I was in and being around the people that I was. That didn't help me feel that I could be loved or appreciated in that way. And so yeah, for sure. That definitely helped, which. Which contributed to me feeling excited again about, okay, maybe this idea of dating is possible. Going back to byu.

Returning to BYU, Marriage Pressure, and Activism

John Dehlin [02:05:57] So how'd BYU go?

Saane Siale [02:06:01] Oh, my gosh. Also feels like another lifetime.

John Dehlin [02:06:05] Um, you graduated how long ago?

Saane Siale [02:06:07] Just last year. So. Yeah. Yep. It's been a little bit over a year. Graduated last April.

John Dehlin [02:06:13] This would have been four years ago. Basically, you get home from your mission, go back to BYU.

Saane Siale [02:06:17] Yeah, yeah. So I served between October 2016, April 2018, and so I come back that summer of 2018 back to BYU, and so up until 2022 when I graduated. So 2018, between 2022. Yeah. Very, very interesting, dating wise. It was interesting because when I came back from my mission, luckily I had a really close friend at the time who I had met through Soar. Her dad was actually the bishop. He happened to be Tongan, and so she was. He was a bishop of a YSA ward. And so my friend had invited me to join that ward because it was specific to Polynesians.

John Dehlin [02:07:03] So for never Mormons. YSA stands for Young Single Adults.

Saane Siale [02:07:07] Yes, Young. Single adults.

John Dehlin [02:07:08] So it's youth. You know, young adult. Young adults, yeah. And so you went back into a Tongan YSA award. Student. Student ward.

Saane Siale [02:07:16] Yeah. So I. BYU. It wasn't at BYU.

John Dehlin [02:07:21] Just in Provo Oro.

Saane Siale [02:07:22] Just in Provo Oro.

John Dehlin [02:07:23] So there's a student ward for people of Tongan descent in Provo Orem.

Saane Siale [02:07:29] Yes. Not specifically to Tongan descent. Well, actually, I mean, if you look at LDS tools, it literally does say Tongan ward, but I mean, it was. It was a mixture of all kinds of Polynesian people, Pacific Islander people, and it was. It really became like a multicultural ward. You had people, you know, from Latinx backgrounds that were coming, black students as well, trying to come to that ward.

Nate Byrd [02:07:56] Trying to feel more accepted.

Saane Siale [02:07:58] Exactly. Trying to feel more accepted. And so.

John Dehlin [02:08:00] And you hadn't been. You hadn't been in a Polynesian ward since 6.

Saane Siale [02:08:04] That's true. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:05] So it was your first time since age 6 to be in a Polynesian ward?

Saane Siale [02:08:09] Yep. First time since I was six, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:11] Okay.

Saane Siale [02:08:11] Around that age. Yep. First time where I. And I intentionally made that choice. It wasn't just kind of like, oh, just join. Like, I. I wanted to. I saw after that ward, and I saw after, you know, being around people from my community and also just a more diverse multicultural community. And so I purposely chose to be a part of that ward. And that allowed me to experience dating in a more, I guess, positive way. You know, like, people were asking Me out or very kind of flip flop. Drastic change from my freshman experience having been, you know, in a predominantly white student ward versus this heavily, you know, multicultural, multi ethnic war. My experience with dating changed for sure. And so I've only ever been in two serious relationships. Currently single right now. Recently got out of a relationship and so, I mean, dating happened here and there. I still experience like the, the fetish. I can never say that word, but I mentioned it previously.

Nate Byrd [02:09:19] Fetishization.

Saane Siale [02:09:20] Yeah. I don't know why it's so hard. Yes, thank you, Naheed.

Nate Byrd [02:09:23] I got you.

Saane Siale [02:09:25] I experienced that here and there. Again from white return missionaries that had served in the islands and then sought after me to hold on to the culture somehow from their mission, which was so weird to me, but I missed my mission.

John Dehlin [02:09:37] I'll date Sunny.

Saane Siale [02:09:38] Yeah, exactly. That's. That's. Yeah. Really? What? Oh gosh, I cringe when I look back.

Nate Byrd [02:09:46] That's far too common at BYU too, is that.

Saane Siale [02:09:48] Exactly. I know I'm not the only one that has felt this way or has experienced this.

Nate Byrd [02:09:53] Any missionary that serves around people of color will come back with some kind of weird fetish for people of color from that place. My sister got it a lot from missionaries who had served in Africa, even though she's never been to Africa, doesn't know anybody from there, you know, but she got that and see.

Saane Siale [02:10:12] Exactly. Yeah, sorry, I wasn't exactly sure what question I was answering. Was it just more so about the dating aspect that you were curious about?

John Dehlin [02:10:20] Yeah.

Saane Siale [02:10:20] Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:21] Had better dating experiences. Were you going to say you had a. You had your first boyfriend in college?

Saane Siale [02:10:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:27] Post mission. In that ward.

Saane Siale [02:10:29] Yeah, in that ward. Yeah. So 2018, I jumped right into serious relationship that ended for various reasons. But again, I mean, there was such an influence of like marriage. Marriage. And you know, the last, the last counsel that I received from my mission president was dating was. Was to get married. That was the quote, unquote, next mission was the mission of getting married. And so in my mind I'm like, okay, that sounds nice. Like I want to be loved. I want to, you know, get married. That. I mean, that's a universally beautiful idea. That's not unique just to the church, obviously. And so coming back with that mentality that set me up for failure with that first relationship, to be quite honest, because I was so. Well, besides the fact being like, you know, my first experience with love, being my first love, but also this idea that marriage had to work out with this person and thankfully it didn't. I experienced infidelity in that, in that relationship and so much of that. And it's crazy because this was the person that I thought I was going to marry. I was putting all my eggs in one basket because there were so many pressures. I can't tell you in that first relationship how many times people asked us or asked me privately, when's the date? Like, when, when are you going to get married? Or.

John Dehlin [02:12:02] Because there's a warm body that you have. Yeah, dating, right.

Saane Siale [02:12:06] Yeah, exactly. And, and again, seeing other people get married, seeing other people achieve that quote, unquote step, there is a sense of, of my worth tied to that. I'll be more worthy if I get married. I'll have more self worth if I do that. And so. Oh, excuse me, Mike. Okay. After getting out of the, you know, relationship and even now not being in a relationship right now, obviously I'm far removed from my first to my second. But I would say, you know, during my first relationship, I look back and so much of my judgment was clouded by outside pressures and church culture and BYU culture and just this idea of marriage and this idea that just get married in the temple and you'll figure it all out later. And which I look back and I'm like, I can't believe that that was, you know, something that I used to subscribe to and used to think that, oh, yeah, it will just all work out. And it's like that first relationship taught me that. No, that there's so many things that go into making a relationship work, even choosing a partner and even like the dating sphere. That again, that was never talked about in church. I was never taught about how to navigate the dating world or what that looked like or what healthy relationships looks like. Communication, wise, navigating, you know, faith transitions, all of that was not taught to me and something I didn't figure out in my first relationship. And so, yeah, that was really difficult because, yeah, saw other people getting married, but then that was. That didn't happen for me. So again, it's just like, is something wrong with me? Again, just internal struggle with that.

John Dehlin [02:13:57] Yeah. Because it's not uncommon for Mormon returned missionaries to be married within six to 12 months of returning home from their missions. And sometimes three months.

Saane Siale [02:14:07] Exactly right.

John Dehlin [02:14:09] And so on the one hand, I'm

Nate Byrd [02:14:10] thinking,

John Dehlin [02:14:13] man, it must have been hard for you to see all your peers get married and get engaged and get married. On the other hand, you had not ever had a single romantic relationship prior to age 20, 21, that first relationship you had.

Saane Siale [02:14:28] Yeah, I was 21. So prior to that I didn't want

John Dehlin [02:14:30] you getting married in your very first romantic relationship at age 21. Three to six months.

Saane Siale [02:14:37] Me neither.

John Dehlin [02:14:37] Relationship. Right. So I feel like he kind of dodged a bullet. Even though at the time, you probably felt really disappointed.

Saane Siale [02:14:44] For sure. For sure. Now I can look back and say, I dodged bullet. Even his own family members told me that I did. So I'm like, I don't feel bad saying that.

John Dehlin [02:14:54] Polynesian.

Saane Siale [02:14:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:14:56] Okay. Yeah.

Saane Siale [02:14:57] No, he was Hawaiian.

John Dehlin [02:14:58] Okay. Hawaiian.

Saane Siale [02:14:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:59] Yeah. Okay.

Saane Siale [02:15:00] Yeah. And so, I mean, yeah, it's true. I. I look back and think, wow, like, I was so set. But, yeah, now that I look back, having been more seasoned with my experience with relationships, I was way too young. I had no idea what I wanted out of life or what I wanted out of relationships. But again, right. You're in this environment where you're almost bred to believe that, you know, that is the right thing to do. To get married right away, to do all these things one after the other. And it wasn't until, I mean, getting into my second relationship.

John Dehlin [02:15:37] Can I just say. Sure. It's. We've been taught as Mormons that any two righteous people can make a marriage work.

Saane Siale [02:15:44] Yes.

Nate Byrd [02:15:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:45] Right.

Saane Siale [02:15:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:15:46] And so. And then if you're both Paul, if you're both Polynesian, I mean, it's a slam dunk, right? You will. You would have been taught. Correct me if I'm wrong. And Nate, you're already saying yes, you would have been taught. You're returned missionary. If you find a returned missionary, especially if he's Polynesian, you're set, period.

Saane Siale [02:16:05] Yeah, Right. For sure. Yeah. Even meeting his family at the time, them finding out that I was a returned missionary, that I served in a Polynesian island because he had served in New Zealand. That was impressive to them. That was like, oh, checkbox. Like, that's perfect. Yeah, exactly. That's all you need. You're endowed. You wear garments. All these things were just like markers of, like, the success we would have in our relationship, which is. Is. I laugh at that. It's laughable now because I look back, and none of that set us up for success at all. If anything, it made us prolong something that should have ended much sooner. And quite honestly. But I had tried to make it work because of all of these outside things, because of these markers of success or what would be future success is what I tried to rationalize in my head. Obviously, I look back and think that, no, there were so many other red flags that I had overlooked in so many different areas. Of life where now I'm like, why would I ever, you know, settle or justify those things in order to just be married? Just to be married. And even in 2020, I had three out of, like, five people that I knew that I was close friends with. In my freshman year of byu, I was one of the few that went to go serve a mission. My other friends had gotten married, and I kid you not, in 2020, all three of them got divorced.

John Dehlin [02:17:42] Yeah.

Saane Siale [02:17:43] And so that was like a huge, like, whoa. These were people from my freshman year BYU who got married. And again, I was so happy for them. And of course, you don't get married just to get divorced, but here I was, you know, 2020, just years later, from 2015 to 2020, seeing, you know, people that I loved, my friends going through really ugly divorces, and a lot of them said the same thing, don't rush. Which seems so. I, like, obvious, of course, why would you rush into marriage? But so many people from the church do that. I saw so many people from my BYU experience do that, and I know so many of them who are now either going through divorce or have. Or who are now divorced.

Nate Byrd [02:18:24] Same. I think the law of chastity has a lot to do with that, too. You jump off your mission, you've been deprived, quote, unquote, for a couple of years, and you're encouraged to get married and start. Start a family and all of that, and follow the covenant path.

Saane Siale [02:18:37] Right.

Nate Byrd [02:18:37] I think you just. If you want to do that, then biology dictates that you got to get married pretty soon, so.

Saane Siale [02:18:44] Exactly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:46] Yeah. And I was just gonna say, I. I have a lot of people reaching out to me who had very short marriages. They got married super quickly right after their mission, and within a short amount of time got divorced. How much havoc that's played in so many Mormon young adult lives in the 2000 and twenties.

Saane Siale [02:19:06] Let's just say yes.

John Dehlin [02:19:07] Yeah.

Saane Siale [02:19:08] It is so real, and it's not talked about enough. And it wasn't until that I had those, that I was proximate to those experiences where it really made me think, like, thank goodness I didn't rush. Thank goodness I didn't jump into marriage with the first person that, you know, showed interest in me, like, thank goodness I didn't just, you know, jump right on that train. And that really changed the way that I looked at relationships post that first one.

John Dehlin [02:19:34] And. And I don't know how much, Nate, you and. And Sonny have put two and two together, but the. If you don't know this, the Church has run studies about how do we keep people in the church? Because in the modern era, the church is losing, hemorrhaging so many people. And the church found that if you rush, rush your young adults into marriage and childbearing, there's a significantly greater percentage that you'll keep them versus lose them, you know, you know, have them leave the church. And so when the church pressures you guys right up, right after your mission to quickly get married and have kids, there's a conflict of interest because it's the church's own self interest in keeping you in the church that's motivating that counsel, that destructive. For many people, that destructive counsel. Did you know that?

Saane Siale [02:20:25] I did not know that.

Nate Byrd [02:20:26] You know, that's the whole reason behind the covenant path, like why they want you to do everything so quickly. They even talk about that with, with converts joining the church. You know, that's why they need a friend and all that to keep them there. And they need to feel comfortable. And then as soon as possible, they need to be taught the lessons after they're baptized. And they need to be endowed because that'll just enhance that ability to retain. And yeah, it's the same with mission missionaries.

Saane Siale [02:20:48] It's.

Nate Byrd [02:20:49] Yeah, it's pretty wild.

John Dehlin [02:20:50] Yeah.

Saane Siale [02:20:50] Yeah, I did not know that. Yeah, it makes sense. But I would, even again, I would push back on that. You know, what are the levels of satisfaction of life and happiness correlated with rushing into marriage? Because at least in my experience, that has destroyed a lot of families and people.

John Dehlin [02:21:09] No, no. Social scientists, I think, will agree now that the later you wait to get married, at some point to some limit, but definitely into your 30s, the better you're set up to have a healthy, happy, thriving marriage and to be better parents by waiting.

Saane Siale [02:21:27] Oh, 100%. I mean, even at the time, like I look back, my standards for marriage are, are you emotionally and mentally capable of, of being in a relationship? Can you share a life with somebody else? Are you able and willing to be open, honest, vulnerable and communicative? And there are a lot of people that aren't who are married. And that doesn't make sense to me. And so those are my standards for. On top of being financially stable, all of those things are now my markers for marriage. Not the church, not the gospel, not temple recommends. Exactly. Not a temple recommendation. Yeah, if you're a return missionary, I do not care. If anything, I'm straying away from returned missionaries, to be quite honest, because that has not, you know, that has not helped me see that you're A good man. For me, like, that has not helped me.

John Dehlin [02:22:17] You're emotionally mature.

Saane Siale [02:22:18] Yes, exactly. If anything, the most emotionally immature men that I've met are healthiest men. And LDST men of color truly are some of the most emotionally immature men that I've. Well, not Nate. Not all people.

Nate Byrd [02:22:35] I used to be. Definitely. I'm still learning. But yeah, I mean, it's, it stunts you. Like your whole identity is the church and so you don't have time to develop yourself.

Saane Siale [02:22:42] Exactly. And I've seen it time and time again, even with the men that I've dated, just the way that their emotional progress and emotional growth like Nate described was stunted. And I can quite honestly tie it back to their experience having grown up in the church and the way that, you know, men are just, you know, obviously raised to be in the church and the, and, and holding the priesthood and then, and then the way that affects the way they view women too. The way that they view sex and all these things. Again, yeah, just emotionally immature. That's why I'm staying single for a long time. Just kidding. We'll see. But that's where I'm at right now. And what I've seen in my experience being at byu, you know, that's such

John Dehlin [02:23:30] a massive topic that I don't know that we've ever covered on Mormon stories. How Mormonism stunts the maturity of young adults, but specifically young, young men.

Saane Siale [02:23:42] I've seen it time and time again. Like, I'm very open about it because I've seen it. I mean, even with my own brother, even with my own brother, the ability for him to like, talk about his, his depression, his emotions, he was never, you know, that there was no space within the church. And the way that he was, that he was raised, we were raised where he could feel supported in talking about those things that just did not exist. The only thing that he was taught was how to hold the priesthood and how to be worthy, but not, you know, handling and carrying his emotional, his feelings, how to, you know, describe his emotions, differentiate emotions. And I've just seen that time and time again with LDS men and LDS men of color, not only in the dating world, but just in general. I've just seen that constantly and even like with a lot of my friends that have gotten divorced, the things that they've expressed to me what their ex husbands did. And it's just, it's mind boggling because I'm just like, how is it that we've let this fester for so long?

John Dehlin [02:24:48] I don't understand yeah, there's a, there's some infantilization that goes on telling a young man you can't be alone. You always have to have a companion with you at all times. Unless you're in the bathroom. Don't you know you have to confess? You know, and you know every little thing you do, you have to confess and you have to get an external authority telling you whether you're okay or not with God. And then just this whole assumption of a mission identity in many ways can preclude you from being able to develop self awareness, emotional maturity and self understanding because you're literally importing an external identity and then trying to assume it. So you're just lacking, at a very tender age, you're lacking the ability to do self discovery, self awareness and maturation.

Nate Byrd [02:25:39] And some of the most formative years of your life are hijacked by your mission. You know those times when you're to, supposed, supposed to be making stupid choices and mistakes and like learning how to process through things. Instead you're out, you know, you're teaching people. And that can be good in some ways. Like it can mature you in some ways, but in other ways it's very, you know, it can be dangerous because then you come home and you never like, learn those critical thinking skills or if you go out on a mission, you haven't learned those critical thinking skills. Like, I can't tell you how many companions I had where I was just like, why are you here? What are you doing?

Saane Siale [02:26:08] Yeah, where.

Nate Byrd [02:26:09] It just didn't make sense, sense for them to be there because they couldn't do the basics, they couldn't support themselves. You know, they just came straight from high school to their missions and they never had a chance to have any kind of development, you know, So I went to a year of college before and you did too, and that definitely helped with some of that. But it takes away from time that you could spend learning about yourself because you're focusing on other people. It's good in some ways, but in other ways it can be very damaging.

John Dehlin [02:26:33] Not to mention learning healthy sexuality and what consent is sexual health. Like when, when my adult kids left the church, I had nothing to tell them about how to date, how to healthy sexual behavior. Like I just. Because Margi is the only, you know.

Saane Siale [02:26:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:51] The only real sexual experience I had ever had. So like I, you know, when would a Mormon young adult learn things like dating, sexuality, sexual health and consent?

Saane Siale [02:27:05] That's the thing, they don't. And if they do learn, it's only by being in relationships. But then that can get really messy because then we're talking about involving other humans and the pain and hurt that is caused by even me having experienced infidelity. That is something that I carry with me now going into future relationships because of this experience that I had with him. And, yeah, he was a returned missionary, all these things. But again, I mean, at the root of it, I truly think it was just because there's so many layers to it. Obviously, there's no excuse or no justification for what he did or for people who do do that. But I also understand, at the same time, nobody taught him about healthy sexuality. He didn't get that from the church. He sure as hell didn't get it from his family, because I knew his family. They didn't teach that. And so how else was he supposed to learn other than just trial and error and lots of it? And I happened to be a part of that trial and error, which is obviously unfortunate. But again, it's just like, we set men in these environments up for failure and women as well, because for me, I came in with the perspective that I was going to marry this person. That's crazy. That's crazy that I wanted so deeply to marry somebody who would choose to hurt me in that way and in other ways as well. And so there's just so many things when it comes to. Right. Healthy sexuality that, you know, we don't talk about, not only within the church, but even within, you know, my own Tongan culture, sex was such a taboo topic, like, never. Never talked about, other than the fact that, you know, you had to remain a virgin. That was the only thing that was taught to me, but nothing else about what. What is the sexual experience like, or. Or how that is a healthy thing is a beautiful thing. It was always this very evil. Yeah, Very evil, demonized thing. And so it's just like you're making sex this scary thing, and then how am I supposed to know, like, what that's supposed to be like? Or how am I supposed to know, like, what that looks like? Even just having healthy relationships and communicating, like, all of those things I've learned on my own, not through the church, not through, you know, my upbringing or my parents or my culture, but really just. Well, for one, therapy and two, just really. Yeah. Being open to, you know, various studies that we've talked about and challenging those taboo things and making and normalizing those topics and having conversations and discussions like these even.

John Dehlin [02:29:48] Yeah, yeah. The combination of no education, no open discussion, and then secrecy and then massive guilt and shame.

Saane Siale [02:29:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:59] And then rush into marriage. It's a super toxic, unhealthy.

Saane Siale [02:30:03] Yes.

Nate Byrd [02:30:03] Those things have an effect on your mental health too.

John Dehlin [02:30:05] Yeah.

Nate Byrd [02:30:06] You know, because, you know, if you, if you're a teenager and you, you start dating, more than likely you're going to get into some kind of sexual situation at one point. And then depending on who you talk to about it, your experience is either really positive or really negative. You know, that can definitely affect your mental health.

Saane Siale [02:30:23] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:30:26] Okay, so. But at least you were dating, right, versus like not dating at all, right? I don't know.

Saane Siale [02:30:35] I don't, I, I wouldn't say I'm like grateful for those experiences. I, I learned a lot. I learned a lot. I mean, like, if it's not a blessing, it's a lesson, right? So, yeah, lots of lessons. But yeah. Had I wished it experience things differently? Of course. Of course. Yeah. But yeah, a lot of lessons. But I chose to take those lessons that was very intentional and other. And other people. It's hard to do that.

John Dehlin [02:31:05] Yeah. So how else was BYU for you?

Saane Siale [02:31:09] Oh, man, I say that a lot because. Heavy. It's heavy. When I think about other aspects of my BYU experience, it really goes back to the activism piece. In the beginning of my BYU experience, after coming back from my mission, I volunteered with the Immigration Services organization. I proofread letters from asylum seekers. That was volunteer work. I also volunteered with Court Watch Provo, which was a non profit that worked with sexual assault survivors. And so we coded their court cases. I also attended a lot of court cases of these sexual assault victims and survivors. And a lot of these people were LDS women, lds young women even. And so here I was navigating this college experience where I was trying to be as involved as possible in all of these issues that I cared deeply about and am passionate about. But it also, the more that I was doing that, the more that I was following these passions, the more that I was finding more things about the church that were reasons to leave. And even working at byu.

John Dehlin [02:32:35] Oh, wait, and dealing with sexual assault survivors, what about that gave you additional reasons to question staying lds? Well, just to, just to kind of make that explicit.

Saane Siale [02:32:50] Yeah. Well, for one, I myself am a sexual assault survivor. And that happened at a young age for a couple of years. And again, that changed the way that I viewed sex, the way that, you know, healthy sexuality wasn't even a thing. And so here I am in college. I'm now grappling with this experience that I had as a young child, as a young teen. And how that has affected the way that I've viewed myself, the way that I viewed my own self worth, the way that I viewed self love. That was all those, all affected by, you know, having this experience where I'm seeing other women going through this and their perpetrators were members as well. I had met so many people from my experience working within that specific nonprofit where they would confront scenarios where you have the stake president, who's the acting judge for their court case, where their perpetrator that they're prosecuting is her bishop. And so now you have these like, conflict of interest, these biases that are now coming into play with, you know, various very serious allegations, very serious cases.

John Dehlin [02:34:09] And you're saying Mormon bishops were the perpetrators of sexual assaults?

Saane Siale [02:34:13] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:14] Against these victims.

Saane Siale [02:34:15] Yeah. Some of the victims that I worked

John Dehlin [02:34:16] with, President would be adjudicating.

Saane Siale [02:34:22] That was, that was a scenario that was more common than you would think, at least in the spectrum of the state of Utah, with the nonprofit that I worked with, that I witnessed for myself. And whether or not it was a bishop, it was a returned missionary, it was somebody who was a returned missionary, it was somebody who was a member of the church that were perpetrators of sexual violence and sexual abuse. And so opening my eyes to that and being someone that, you know, obviously my heart goes out to those who have experienced it, both men and women and trans people, all people who have experienced that. And seeing perpetrators of this sexual abuse and sexual violence within the church, and not seeing the church do enough about denouncing that and rooting that out and doing everything in their power to protect families, which they obviously claim time and time again to do. I did not see that as a priority. I didn't see that as a priority at byu, didn't see that as a priority within the church leadership. And so that's what I mean by reasons to not stay, reasons to leave were things like that, that I was witnessing myself firsthand and being disappointed time and time again at the leadership within the church that in, in my opinion and in my perspective weren't doing enough to protect the most vulnerable.

John Dehlin [02:35:48] Okay, so that, yeah, that's. That would have been hard to, to become aware of the massive prevalence of not just sexual assault within Mormonism and sexual abuse within Mormonism. But, but the COVID ups and the way that the church inexplicably seems to side with the perpetrators at the expense of the victims.

Saane Siale [02:36:13] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:36:13] Is that what you saw?

Saane Siale [02:36:14] 100%. That is something that I saw constantly and that's just not unique to church. Obviously that's unique to just, I mean, within Western civilization. Right, right. We uplift the perpetrators and we silence the victim. That's something that we've seen time and time again and throughout history and we're seeing currently, now. But my issue, like within the church, is just. The doctrine surrounding families and the preservation of protecting families. If that's such a priority, such an integral part of the church, why is this not talked about? You'll hear, you'll find dozens of general conference talks on why abortion is wrong, but zero about why sexual violence is wrong. Like you, like, you know what I mean? It's just like. So we're focusing on how like, you know, women should never get abortions or should never have sex before marriage, but we don't talk about how the men in our society perpetuate sexual violence. That's, that's outlandish to me. That's ridiculous to me how that's the conversation we're having. But not the little boys and little girls and me at one point, a little girl who experienced this horribly traumatic thing. That's not at the forefront of general conference and the conversation surrounding sex and children. Again, to me it's just the discrepancies that I've found time and time again that enrage me in various ways. Especially being someone that has experienced that myself and knowing what that's like and seeing. And again, having experienced that on my mission, having literally had women that came forward to me about these experiences and now coming back to BYU and seeing that again. Yeah, it was just a huge issue for me.

John Dehlin [02:38:19] Yeah. Like the church has spent tens, probably hundreds of millions of dollars trying to defeat same sex marriage. Why hasn't it spent hundreds of millions of dollars trying to protect the victims of sexual abuse?

Saane Siale [02:38:36] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:38:37] Why the disparity there?

Saane Siale [02:38:39] 100%. Why is that more important than. Yeah, protecting families, protecting children? I mean, I literally worked with a mother who her now ex husband is in prison for molesting their six children. This was, this was the father of, of their children who was committing these horrible sexual acts against his own children. And she, she had to prosecute her own husband and father of her own children. Those were the kinds of stories and people that I talked with and spoke with and listened to and it brought a sense of pain where it's just like. But nobody knows these stories, nobody talks about these stories. And again, it just further perpetuates the silencing of victims. And it's the exact reason why people don't report, why people don't come forward. Because People won't listen. That's. That's been the trend for as long as we can see. So why. Why would I. Why would I be the one to. To share my story or speak up when I've seen so many people try and it not receive the outcome that it should have?

John Dehlin [02:39:53] Yeah. Okay. So where else. What else did you experience

Saane Siale [02:40:01] that was a lot heavy stuff. On the other side of that, I worked for the multicultural Student Services office. I worked in that office for about two years. And so I had kind of like this bird's eye view of not only the office in particular, but just like the culture programs that we were leading, like Fiesta Perspectives, Luau, Powwow for Native American Indigenous peoples. So I really appreciated having kind of like that inside look behind the scenes. I was also. I was a front desk receptionist at the time, so I was kind of like the face that. The first face that people saw coming into that office. And I loved that position just because I loved being able to tell, you know, educate as many people as possible that this resource existed. Now, I mean, obviously it's so hard because there were problematic things within the office that I dealt with that I didn't agree with. I think it's something that they're still working on as of today, but, I mean, to be specific. And Nate, you can chime in as well. I would want you as well to share your experience with the MSS office. But I know for me specifically, it was difficult trying to help all students of color, felt like they could come and felt like they belong in that office. I mean, it was a resource for multicultural students, but did it adequately meet the needs of the students who really needed help the most? I don't know. I can't 100% say yes. And I know that there are discrepancies with. Just like, people would make the comment that the MSS office was almost the Polynesian office, but it wasn't really an office that was inclusive of black students. And also, Nate, I wanted to let you share your perspective of the MSS office. I mean, that's just what I gathered and what I experienced experience and saw and tried to change and help, but was still hard because there was just obviously pushback.

Nate Byrd [02:42:07] Yeah, I would say the MSS office was. I think the intention in starting the office was good, but I think what it became was not super helpful. I think that it was. It kind of managed scholarships for students that went to soar.

Saane Siale [02:42:24] Right.

Nate Byrd [02:42:24] I think that was its biggest utility. And then outside of that, it didn't necessarily feel Like a resource for students of color, especially for black students.

Saane Siale [02:42:33] 100%.

Nate Byrd [02:42:34] You know, whenever we tried to get resources from them, it was always a lot of red tape or like pulling teeth to try and get the. I remember one time we tried to rent a van and we ran into so much red tape just trying to get a hold of a van. And I think we ended up having to go through like another department on campus or something like that. So, yeah, a lot of the times it didn't feel like it was set up to help students of color succeed. Like, I think. Yeah, yeah, I think through no fault of like the people in the office.

Saane Siale [02:43:05] Oh, yeah, 100%.

Nate Byrd [02:43:06] It wasn't set up to help students of color succeed. It was set up as like a checkbox. Like, we have a multicultural student services office that's for all the people of color on campus, but there wasn't any, you know, it was like a very small office crammed into the corner of the basement of the Wilkinson Student Center.

Saane Siale [02:43:23] Yes. You would have never known that it existed.

Nate Byrd [02:43:25] Exactly. There wasn't even a space for students to gather. And so it didn't really. It didn't really feel like much of a resource for those reasons.

Saane Siale [02:43:34] No. Yeah. And that's true for sure. And for me, being a student that did attend SOAR is because of that experience that I did receive scholarships and obviously through. Also obviously performing at an academic level as well. But yeah, so, yeah, it really didn't help those that didn't go. And I remember trying to direct and help students receive funding. The same thing. There was always, you know, a wall or door that was closed. Just. Just obstacles constantly in the way. And so. And yeah, and I mean, I think the people. I mean, I love the people that I worked with and the faculty that I worked with there, I think they did their best with the parameters that they were given by BYU administration. And again, that's the same trend with every group and organization that I've been a part of. I was a part of by USA where I led. You know, it was a panel forum discussion program where, you know, we would do a topic on disability inclusion and we'd have four to six panelists who had varying disabilities. And so we would have people in the audience that would say, submit questions and ask to open and expand their understanding of people in regards to that specific topic. We did that with black history, Native American history, non traditional families, LGBTQ and dating, all those things. But even that, I remember having administrative people come to check out the panels just to make sure that we weren't like bashing the church, quote unquote, or like that happened quite often. And I would always have directives from people above me like, okay, what are the questions that are going to be asked? Especially with the Black History one, the Black History panel. I remember having administrative level people obviously way, way above me that were very curious as to what questions would be asked and how things would be handled and just kind of trying to micromanage those kinds of discussions. I was also hired on a committee called DCI Diversity, Collaboration and Inclusion. So I was the first student that was hired onto it. And then I hired a student committee of six students to kind of lead different initiatives all towards the same goal of diversity and inclusion within the FHSS college. And that was kind of like the model for other college departments to kind of follow suit and help their college departments be more inclusive of marginalized communities. But even then, so much pushback, so much every idea and solution that we had, we would present and then there would be some issue with it, or we can't do that, or we have to adjust it in a way where it's okay for like, you know, the white majority or the audience that we're trying to reach. And I'm not sure, Nate, if you have thoughts on that too. I just know that that was my experience constantly at BYU where I would try to implement these changes, but then it never came to fruition.

Reflections on BYU's Diversity Climate and Recommendations

John Dehlin [02:46:48] Let me ask you both just a kind of a macro question.

Saane Siale [02:46:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:52] Let's just assume by way administration came to you both and said, open, blank, check, every idea will be adopted. How do we make BYU a great experience for people of color? What would be the top three to five recommendations you'd make? Do you have a sense for that?

Saane Siale [02:47:13] For sure.

John Dehlin [02:47:14] What would it be? And Nate, you chime in too.

Saane Siale [02:47:17] Yeah, I mean, well, for one, we would need more than three to five recommendations. I would need a bigger limit than that, first off. But I mean, within that scope, one of the main things would be. One of the things that I addressed was the hiring aspect of BYU getting more faculty of color and more female faculty, women faculty. That was a huge thing that I talked about and spearheaded was the majority of our faculty at BYU are white men. White cisgendered men. I'm sorry, but that's an issue. Also on top of that, LDS men as well. That would be my first recommendation is diversifying the faculty, getting different faculty that come from different backgrounds that can bring and offer different perspectives and also create more safe spaces for students of Color again, the pockets of safety that you can find at BYU are few and minimal for me. When I think of diversifying faculty, that in itself would create and offer more safe spaces for students who are attending these classes. They're paying to be taught by these professors. Why not have more inclusive and, you know, different minded people as a part of staff? So that would be my first recommendation. Nate, is there anything else? I mean, I can keep going, but I don't. Something else in terms of what could

John Dehlin [02:49:08] they do to make students of color find community, build relationships, have better dating experiences, you know, just to feel community on campus. What could they do?

Saane Siale [02:49:19] Oh, man. The hard thing about that is that there's so many layers to it. And like, one of the main recommendations that has been constantly brought up, and it wasn't even, it was way before even me, was an actual course where we talk about race, ethnicity and culture, where we talk about. And a required course for everybody at byu. And so the education piece is really important because, I mean, so much of that education fell on students like me and Nate and that should never have been our responsibility. I should not have the responsibility of educating 30,000 white people. Why they're, you know, they're, they're racist sometimes. Like, you know what I mean? Or why certain things and the way that the world works, you know, it stems from systemic racism and stems from our history with slavery and the enslavement of African people. That burden should not fall upon me or Nate or, you know, or any student. And so again, the education piece of requiring the student body at BYU to open their minds and open their, their eyes to not only U.S. american history, but also church history. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about the priesthood band. Let's talk about the way that, you know, we treated LGBTQ people with conversion therapy. Like, let's talk about that history within the church and within the United States of America. So yeah, that education piece for one,

John Dehlin [02:50:47] because that would, that would allow you to feel safer amongst a bunch of white students. At least you would feel like. And I'm just thinking about, you know, when I was getting my PhD, I took a whole, I took an entire semester on diversity and inclusion within the realm of mental health. Right.

Saane Siale [02:51:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:05] And that helped me learn about what is racism? What does it mean to be a racist? What is privilege?

Saane Siale [02:51:13] Exactly?

John Dehlin [02:51:14] You know, what's our history? Once you have that awareness, at least you're going to say less offensive things.

Saane Siale [02:51:20] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:51:21] Feel differently towards people of color and you're going to say less offensive Racist things. And you might even say affirming supportive things that it would. It would allow you to interact with your white fellow students in a way that felt not only not unsafe, but maybe even safe and maybe even affirming. Is that right? That's what education would do.

Saane Siale [02:51:47] Yeah, exactly.

Nate Byrd [02:51:48] Sounds like you must have gotten that PhD at BYU.

John Dehlin [02:51:52] No, Utah State, but that's cool. Okay, so that's huge. So more diverse faculty, educating students and faculty about systemic racism. Yeah, but that's so hard because, like, racism has become part of the culture war in, in the modern era to where the, The. The predominant conservative political culture is attacking Black Lives Matter, is attacking. Anti racism, is attacking critical race theory.

Saane Siale [02:52:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:26] So it's just. Wait, that's way too hot to be trying to educate people in that environment. Right. That's even assuming that the faculty, the administration would be supportive of those ideas.

Nate Byrd [02:52:40] So there's been an effort for years to institute, and there have actually been several professors and faculty who actually wrote an entire curriculum for a general education course about diversity, equity, inclusion. And they submitted it for approval. They did everything right. They made sure it aligned with all the church's values and made sure that it didn't affect any of the religion credits or anything like that. And they just froze it at administration. And so they've been working on that for years. And it's the administration that's preventing it from going through because everything's on the up and up. You know, they've written everything to fill all of the standards and make sure it's, you know, it doesn't talk about anything that's too controversial, but they just refuse to allow it into the system. And we actually, on our podcast, we talked to a professor, and he was talking about how they have not updated the BYU GD requirement since, I think, 1975.

John Dehlin [02:53:33] General education.

Nate Byrd [02:53:34] General. Yeah. What did I say?

Beau Oyler [02:53:35] GD?

Nate Byrd [02:53:36] No, the general education they haven't updated since 1975. So it's been almost 50 years, and they just refuse to change it, you know?

John Dehlin [02:53:44] Yeah, because, like, going back to me, you know, number one, BYU's requirements for religious education are infamous. It's like 12 credit hours of books.

Nate Byrd [02:53:56] Basically an entire minor in religion.

John Dehlin [02:53:58] Yeah, it's.

Saane Siale [02:53:59] Yeah, literally a minor.

John Dehlin [02:54:01] So forget the fact that you from. From age 0 to. To 19 had been super indoctrinated within Mormonism.

Saane Siale [02:54:09] Right.

John Dehlin [02:54:10] And forget the fact that you had done four years of early morning seminary with additional religious indoctrination in addition to two to three years, two to three hours a week in Mormon Religious indoctrination. And then forget about the fact that you serve two years, one and a half to two years as a missionary with additional Mormon indoctrination. Then you get to BYU and you have to have 14 additional. How many credit hours? Additional credit hours of Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, New Testament, Pearl of Grape, like whatever. Like that is it during that time of your life. That's what's important in terms of additional course requirements that you're going to have added to your bachelor's degree. That's the priority versus or American Heritage, which is like, let's make sure you believe by the time you graduate from BYU that the US Constitution was inspired of God, that the US Founders were inspired of God, that America is the greatest nation on the planet. You know, like that's, that was the purpose of American heritage because I was a TA for it. That's essential. All that is essential. But one class on the history of race and racism and, and all of that stuff and diversity and inclusion and privilege, that's not worth one course, right?

Saane Siale [02:55:53] Yeah, exactly. And that's why I mentioned that even the recommendations that I've even been talking about, the very few, these are things that have come way before me. These are the things like we, like people have been advocating for these recommendations, for these tangible solutions that can be applied to address all of these issues. People that have really cared to come together and problem solve, but no choice has been made to apply that. I mean, even with the race committee, Nate, if you remember how they came out with the race report and it was like what, over 30 pages with all like countless solutions from faculty and professors and people with PhDs, people with like, you know, experience working in DEI work, and people who are also active members within the church who all contributed to offering the solutions. And has any one of them been applied to this day? I have no idea. Just that one, maybe one. Yeah, just one.

Nate Byrd [02:56:54] Only part of it and.

Saane Siale [02:56:55] Yeah, and only part of it. And so it's just like it's not a matter of like they don't know what to do or they don't have any directive of like where to go or what direction to take. They've made an active and implicit choice to not.

Nate Byrd [02:57:11] Yeah. And I, you know, in talking about those recommendations, when I was president of the Black student union in 2021, we actually, we wrote to the president of the university. So me and I was co presidents with someone. And so we got together, we sat down, we brainstormed and we narrowed it down. We were like what are three things that we can absolutely get done that require, like, almost next to no effort that they can just do right without having to get a bunch of approval or anything like that? And we consolidated down to three things. And we wrote a letter to the president of the university. We gave it to the vice president of student life. To the vice president of. I don't think it was inclusion. What does Vern Hepper do?

Saane Siale [02:57:53] Oh, my gosh. What does Vern.

Nate Byrd [02:57:55] I don't even. He's in a different position now.

Saane Siale [02:57:56] He is? Yeah.

Nate Byrd [02:57:57] I think he was like the vice President of Inclusion or something like that.

Saane Siale [02:57:59] Yeah. I'm not exactly sure if they even

Nate Byrd [02:58:00] had that at the time. But we consolidated into three points at the end of our letter. And we said. We asked for a meeting. And then we said, in our meeting, we hope to present both a clear, undiluted perspective on the unique problems we face. We referring to, like, students of color on campus, mainly black students. The problems we face as well as simple solutions that can make a major difference in the quality of our experience. Our solutions are threefold. Number one, fully acknowledge the past. Otherwise true progress will remain intangible. Number two, create a physical space for us. We make room for what we value. And number three, include us in the decisions you make about us. We want to help. And then we just, like, you know, close it out. We're like, we await your reply. And so we did get a meeting, but it was just like, they listened, like, oh, thanks for that. And then nothing ever happened. You know, I think I talked about this in my interview as well, but we asked for a space on campus. Can we just have a room? And the vice president of student life told us that there was no room on campus. Like, oh, we don't have a space. Like, you don't have a single room on campus? She's like, no, they're all being used.

John Dehlin [02:59:04] I was like, for the Black Student Union specifically.

Nate Byrd [02:59:06] Well, so there was a room for the Black Student Union, but we just wanted a space where we could gather outside of Black Student Union.

John Dehlin [02:59:11] Okay.

Nate Byrd [02:59:12] You know, like, most campuses will have, like, a whole center dedicated to multicultural students.

John Dehlin [02:59:17] Okay.

Nate Byrd [02:59:18] You know, and so we just asked for, like, a small space. And she said, well, all the rooms on campus are being used, you know, so things like that. But, yeah, none of those things. Things took place. We asked President Woren to just, hey, make an acknowledgement that, you know, that this. This university is built on Native American land. Make that acknowledgment at commencement. Nothing, you know, we Can't. Can't move forward till we acknowledge the past. That was a huge thing. And yeah, there things that are very simple that wouldn't. You wouldn't think would take a lot of effort but never got done.

John Dehlin [02:59:50] Yeah. Yeah. So with. With America's history, in terms of how it's dealt with race, with the Mormon Church's history, problematic history of how it's dealt with race, with the values of Christianity and inclusion that are not just in Christian scripture, but in LDS scripture, and with just the history of people of color not feeling comfortable and at BYU and in the church, and with the church's missionary ambitions in Africa and other places, you would think the Mormon Church would have all sorts of incentives to just get this one right. Plus, with $250 billion in assets, that the church would have every incentive in the world to just, like, how much? A million? 5 million? 10 million? Sonny. Nate, how do we fix this problem? Will do it. You think that they would. What?

Nate Byrd [03:00:47] San.

John Dehlin [03:00:48] Sunny.

Saane Siale [03:00:48] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:00:49] What? What?

Nate Byrd [03:00:50] Her name is San, not sunny, son.

John Dehlin [03:00:53] Thank you. Yes, Sonny. Just have to.

Nate Byrd [03:00:55] Just want to get that in there.

John Dehlin [03:00:56] Thank you, Sonny. Like, the church would have every motivation to get this right and it. Make it to fix these problems.

Saane Siale [03:01:04] Yes. Yeah, you would. You would think.

John Dehlin [03:01:07] Yeah.

Saane Siale [03:01:09] Especially for church and its doctrine, who. I mean, at the forefront is the atonement of Jesus Christ. And we talk about atoning for our sins. That context, I 100% apply to America. I 100% apply that. Why is the church exempt from atoning from their sins of the past? You tell us to atone for our own personal sins, but you're exempt from that as an entire organization who is leading a global church. That's crazy to me. And I view that even at byu. I mean, there's so many heartbreaking experiences that I've witnessed people go through at BYU and continue to go through even now, and professors, and the list goes on. And it's so disheartening because it's just like this is a place where Christ is supposed to reside and exist, and yet some of the most unchristlike things have taken place here. I don't know how to reconcile that. And that's something that I saw constantly during my experience. And it's hard because there are people at BYU faculty that I love so much, and I'm so grateful for the experiences that I've had. I was even able to go on the African American Civil Rights seminar, which we. We go to Alabama, we go to Georgia, and we basically do civil rights tour. Nate. Has done it as well. We weren't. We didn't do it in the same year. But that experience I got through BYU through, you know, black faculty that fought to. And white faculty as well, who were very passionate about, you know, black history. And. And who. Who fought for that experience. And so that's something that I took part in. And. And if anything, added to what I was already passionate about. And so it's interesting because I've had these formative experiences that, you know, I got through being at byu. But then at the same time, it's just like, how does that, you know, this goodness exists? And also this horrible, disheartening, hopeless experience also exists, is a constant battle for me, at least in my experience, having worked with diversity, equity, inclusion work at byu. And even as Nate, as. As he described, you know, you know, as students like you, you have all these recommendations and all these solutions, and you have the research to back it up, and you have the abcd, efg, all of the ways of how to make it, you know, coincide with the church and the gospel. And for it to still be, oh, no. Or it has to be adjusted this way or shifted that way. It's. It just feels defeating when that is constantly the experience of, like, we're trying. We're trying to make a difference, but then nothing. Nothing changes, nothing has changed, if that makes sense. At least for me. That was what it felt like time and time again where it's just like, am I just, you know, this token, just this. I'm doing all this volunteer work that I'm not being paid for, and for what? I don't know. I mean, again, I don't regret, like, the work that I was a part of and did. And I don't know how you feel about that, Nate, but I look back and there's the part of me where it's just like, did that really help? Like, did that make a difference? Again, I'm not saying that it didn't, but it's like, I think of, you know, my friends that are still at byu, and I hear, you know, the things that they say and their experiences and what's going on. And it's like, wow. Like, not much has changed. Or it's still, you know, this pattern of. And now with the new president of byu, I don't know. It's just. Yeah. I'm not sure, Nate, if there's anything that you would add to that, but you got it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:05:06] So, like, I'm thinking about when you left BYU your freshman year. You're resolving. I'm gonna. I'm gonna be the Mormon. I'm gonna be the woman of color. That helps change.

Saane Siale [03:05:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:05:16] Both BYU and the church. You go in your mission, you come back, and you literally, you know, walk. Walk the walk of offering your services to byu. Your time, your talent, your efforts, much of it. Volunteer. Offer that to BYU to help fix the problem, to address the problem. You too, Nate. And you're saying you ended your experience there wondering whether anything was different by the time you were done?

Saane Siale [03:05:48] 100%. I mean, obviously, I give space to the work that I did do. I mean, especially with. I remember the change with the honor code as it's applied to queer students, and then the CES coming down and saying, nope, just kidding. That's actually not the case. BYU can't do that. And then I just remember

John Dehlin [03:06:15] this one. BYU changed the honor code, apparently to allow gay students to date.

Saane Siale [03:06:21] To date. Yes, that's correct.

John Dehlin [03:06:22] As long as they live, the law of chastity only within a few weeks to say. Sorry. Just kidding. LGBT people can't date.

Saane Siale [03:06:29] Yeah, exactly.

Nate Byrd [03:06:30] So they. I guess they never actually, like, stated that they could date. What they did was they deleted the section of the honor code that talked about homosexual behavior.

Saane Siale [03:06:38] Right, right.

Nate Byrd [03:06:39] Without clarification. And then once people started coming out and, you know, expressing their feelings on campus, then they clarified two weeks later and said, oh, no, we didn't. This. It's still there.

John Dehlin [03:06:50] It's still just invisible now, verbally maintaining the prohibition, but removing the written prohibition from its honor code to avoid probably

Nate Byrd [03:07:03] legal action or something.

John Dehlin [03:07:04] Yeah, yeah.

Saane Siale [03:07:06] Do you remember, Nate, the. Remember how President Nelson came to speak at byu? I don't know if you remember that, but he specifically talked about, like, he made the distinction within the law of chastity.

Beau Oyler [03:07:19] That.

Saane Siale [03:07:21] Yeah, the same thing with. With the homosexual behavior. It was about living the law of chastity and how that also. It wasn't exclusive of. Of queer students, of queer people and also, you know, heterosexual people. I still vividly remember that. But then. Yeah. And then the. The shift with obviously, ces, you know, releasing that letter that. Oh, actually, no, and mind you, so many people had already came out to their families, came out on social media, and again, almost this. Again, another sense of betrayal where it's just like I'm constantly reminded I do not belong here, and I want so badly to belong here. And I remember that March of 2020, again, this is literally right before, you know, the pandemic hit, and everybody, we. Online school, we held a protest at byu his name is Ryan. He's queer himself. And we rallied together. We held this protest with usga, and we lost the momentum because right after that, it went into the pandemic. And so any conversation that could have happened after that protest and after, you know, so many people expressing their dismay and how hurtful that letter was and that shift in and almost like, misleading people, we lost that momentum because of, obviously, what happened with the global pandemic.

John Dehlin [03:09:01] So were you. Sonny, were you leading. Sonny. Right. Were you. Were you leading protests at BYU by that?

Saane Siale [03:09:07] Yes, by that point, yes.

John Dehlin [03:09:09] So that specific one from decades before, I can tell you how that ends. BYU doesn't like protests, right?

Saane Siale [03:09:15] Yet? No, they don't.

Nate Byrd [03:09:17] They changed the rules to make it to where you have to ask permission to protest.

Saane Siale [03:09:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:09:21] So.

Saane Siale [03:09:22] So you have to go through an approval process.

John Dehlin [03:09:24] So how was that for your morale, to be leading protests at byu?

Saane Siale [03:09:28] I mean, I wasn't concerned about how that. I mean, there was a part of me that of, you know, worried, like, would that affect my status, my academic status? Would that affect. Because at that point, I wasn't close to graduation. This was 2020. I graduated in April 2022. Obviously, there were feelings of, like, will this affect my academic career, my educational path? But really, that wasn't even a thought that overpowered what was important to me at the time. And again, that's always. The person that I've led myself to be is speaking up for the unheard, and not even me speaking up, uplifting other voices, letting them speak for themselves and highlighting that. That was very huge for me in my BYU experience and my activism was, how can I uplift other people? How can I bring a MIC to them, to their experiences? Even in 2018? Actually, no. Actually, no. 2019. Excuse me. I worked with Women's March Provo at the time. We kind of modeled after Women's March, the national organization, and we led a protest against ice. We held it on Pioneer Day, which, for those of you that don't know, that's a state holiday in Utah where they honor the Mormon pioneers. But we chose to help hold that. That protest actually in the West Valley headquarters. People don't know this, but Utah actually holds the. The Regional detentional center. So they have the ICE headquarters in West Valley. And that regional detention center covers states like Montana, Arizona, Colorado. That's within the state of Utah.

John Dehlin [03:11:25] This is how the federal government treats. Deals with immigrants.

Saane Siale [03:11:28] Yes, 100%. And I remember organizing that. And again, being in a state like Utah, very different. Growing up in a state Like California, growing up in an area like the Bay Area, where it was normalized to protest and speak up and riot and, and do demonstrations and go to public council meetings. Whereas with Utah, the things that, you know, I was fighting for and standing up for, very few of us were doing that. It was very hard to do that, even trying to get, you know, rallying the support. And again, saw the same thing at BYU where. How is it that, you know, I mean, and obviously the. The church's stance on immigration, I would say, among other things, I would say is more inclusive than other issues. They've expressed how they support dreamers DACA initiative that Obama instated when he was president. So obviously there's that weird relationship where it's like you have the church that have supported those things, but then you have the church membership who don't, who are extremely xenophobic. And so, again, it's very confusing. And so. And I bring that up to say that that's why, you know, my BYU experience was so back and forth and so mentally exhausting and mentally draining because there was all these mixed messages and thinking about, like, who Christ was to me, but then seeing people who, who weren't Christ, like, who were supporting these very unchristlike views and policies that affected real life people, that's something that I was very adamant about during my time at byu, was reminding people that these policies, there are real families behind them, there are real people behind these laws and these policies that are affected by them. And it's a privilege to not have to worry about that, to not have to worry about voting or if you are voting, voting against. Again, that was something that I was very adamant about and something that was a big part of my experience at BYU and what affected my relationship with the church

John Dehlin [03:13:47] for the most part. How did white BYU students respond to attempts at activism around immigrants, Black Lives Matter, LGBT things? What was the general reception by the white BYU student body to these efforts?

Saane Siale [03:14:07] Again, it's the same thing that we saw with the civil rights movements, where you had, like, the white moderate who didn't necessarily agree with what was going on against black people, but didn't say anything. And so you had, like. So I compare that with, like, you had the white student population that probably agreed with things that I openly, vocally spoke about, but they. But they were too scared to agree with me or to offer support. And then you had the other white student population of BYU students where they were openly against Black Lives Matter openly. I mean, I remember seeing somebody at BYU where their phone screensaver was the Blue Lives Matter flag. Again, just. Just seeing, you know, so many people that were so, so against, you know, all of these very progressive and inclusive movements. So you had the mixture of the two where people didn't. You had the, you know, white students that didn't speak up, but they knew it was wrong. Or again, I mean, I had a friend who had an experience within a classroom. She's black, and I can't remember if it was a student or a professor, but the N word. It was a student, and the student had to use the N word. And again, I know people in that room knew that what this fellow white student said was wrong, but did anybody speak up in support of my black friend? No. And so that was a huge issue, too, that frustrated me just as much as people that were openly comfortable with their problematic views, because at least I knew where they stood. When I think back to, like, the Trump era, for me, at least it showed me what people who and who they were and what they actually stood for. I didn't have to guess, if that makes sense. And so in that part, obviously, I don't even want to say that I'm grateful for, but at least it showed me what people really stood for. But then you had, you know, the white majority that didn't say anything, that didn't speak up, even though deep down they felt that it was probably wrong.

John Dehlin [03:16:28] So not a lot of white student support for social justice causes from what you experienced?

Saane Siale [03:16:37] No, not a lot. I mean, obviously. And Nate, you can chime in as well. I mean, the most rallying of white BYU students that I saw in terms of, like, supporting any, like, progressive issue was probably when it came to, like, LGBTQ plus issues. Like, that's where I saw, you know, a lot of white students. But even when it came to, like, Black Lives Matter or, like, students that. Oh, no. Issues that the, you know, black students and black Americans were facing. Nothing, silence. And so that was also. There's also issues with that and layers to that, which, again, why the pride flag was updated to include black and Brown because of the intersectionality of black and brown people within the LGBTQ community. So. Yeah. But for the most part, overall, not many white students, especially when it came to issues regarding race or even like immigration and xenophobia, you weren't going to see many white BYU students supporting or supporting those causes.

Nate Byrd [03:17:51] I think, you know, there's a lot of reasons behind that, but I think probably the biggest reason is that, in all honesty, I think that a lot of white members of the Church, especially at byu, are just so sheltered when it comes to issues surrounding race that they don't have a basis on which to stand or support that.

Saane Siale [03:18:10] Right.

Nate Byrd [03:18:11] You know, if you talk to BYU students, you're going to be hard pressed to find a BYU student who doesn't know someone who's a member of the queer community.

Saane Siale [03:18:19] Right, right.

Nate Byrd [03:18:20] But you can throw a rock and find someone who doesn't know a black person or who's never had a meaningful interaction with a black person or with another person of color in their entire lives. And so I think that that definitely affects that as well, as well as just all the taboo and the fear surrounding race. And white people, they're very afraid to talk about racism or admit to it because of all the connotations that come with it. And so I think those things probably make a big difference. And so it's bad for a lot of reasons. But at the same time, I kind of, yes, it's their fault that they haven't been exposed, but at the same time, you know, it is what it is. But that's, that's probably the biggest reason that there's not a lot of support for issues surrounding race is because the church just doesn't do a very good job of introducing diversity into its culture.

Saane Siale [03:19:11] Exactly. And, and the country as a whole, again, like, like you mentioned, it's like at the end of the day, you know, people are a product of their lack of exposure, lack of proximity, lack of understanding, lack of education. Which is sad because it's like you think about the college experience and how you would think that by that time you have so much knowledge and now you're adding more to it, and it's mind boggling being surrounded by an entire population of college students who know close to nothing about the history of our country. Like, that's, to me, that's embarrassing. That's scary. That's. That's scary that, you know, these are people that are, you know, going to be teachers, doctors, lawyers, and then they don't even have the basic understanding. Yeah, parents. Parents, exactly. Future church leaders, if they, you know, remain in the church that do not have, in my opinion, the basic understanding of the basic history both church and within the country.

John Dehlin [03:20:20] Yeah. You'd think that the church might just obtain the resolve to say, we're going to create a people that are the least racist, most anti racist people in the world, because the. If there's anything that's anti Christian, that's antichrist, it's racism.

Saane Siale [03:20:42] Mm. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:43] So let's create the most anti racist community on the planet. I mean, that would. That follows for me, you would think.

Nate Byrd [03:20:53] But the church is rooted in white supremacy, so there's that.

John Dehlin [03:21:02] Okay. Boom, boom. It is what it is, I guess really quickly. And I hope it's okay for me to ask this. What was it like to see the Black menaces kind of emerge at BYU while you were there? Yeah, I know this is your story, but was that an important part of your BYU story?

Saane Siale [03:21:24] Oh, for sure.

John Dehlin [03:21:25] And if so, do you want to just share what that was like to see that happen and how, how you experienced that?

Saane Siale [03:21:32] Yeah, it's because there's few, there's few

John Dehlin [03:21:36] phenomena at BYU that's made such a national, if not an international, other than like the horrible LGBT stuff that happened to byu. And Holland's awful musket talk, like the Black menaces is like one of the most historic things to ever happen to byu. And you got to. You had not only got to witness it, but you were close friends with many of the people like Nate, who were involved.

Saane Siale [03:22:01] It's funny. And again, it shouldn't be a surprise as to why I'm close friends with all of them. There's a reason why. There's a reason why. Those are my people. And the community that I found and clung to during my time at byu, which is a huge reason why I was able to survive in that experience, honestly, and also thrive in a lot of other ways, was through people like Sebastian, Rachel, Kylie and Nate and Kennethia. My experience watching that kind of blow up, honestly, I was really proud. I was really proud of what they were doing, what they were talking about and highlighting. Again, I was also very aware of people that were so against it.

John Dehlin [03:22:53] So

Saane Siale [03:22:56] it's. I mean, I had people, you know, messaging me in my DMs or trying to have conversations with me where it's just like, but what they're doing is so divisive. What they're doing is so it's not helping. It's going to make it worse. It's going to make divisive. Yeah, it's going to make him. Yeah, exactly. That was the constant messaging that, you know, people that knew me because obviously I was very, by that time coming back from my mission at that point, I did not care what people thought in terms of what I shared and posted and vocalized. I was back in that. What was natural to me, what was second nature to me being vocal about Black Lives Matter. Even in my bio on Instagram, I have Christ, the perfect ally. I did that intentionally. To show people. And I have Black Lives Matter. I have all the hashtags that, you know, address different ethnic, racial groups and different issues like abolish Ice Free Palestine, murder missing and murdered indigenous women, LGBTQ plus issues. Like, all of those things. Like, that's in my Instagram bio. Because I wanted to show people that, like, I can believe in Christ and also believe and fight for all of these things. And so when I saw Black Menaces, it was. It was the same thing. It was more so for me, sharing, you know, the TikToks and the messages that they were promoting. I was just more so a vessel of sharing that message even further. And I was really proud of what they were doing and really proud of the perspectives that they were highlighting, that we haven't addressed our church history adequately enough. Like, so far from even getting to the point of, like, even talking about it in. In. In a way where we are atoning, we are being repenting of those things. We're so far from that. And so for me, my perspective of the Black Menaces was like, now we're. We're going to force people to have this conversation because the church is not taking the lead on it. And so for me, I felt that, you know, the Black Menaces were kind of whether it made people pissed, it was a good thing that people were getting pissed off because it meant that conversations were happening.

John Dehlin [03:25:07] I mean, but for those. Let's just say there's a big chunk of our listeners that don't know what we're talking about with the Black Menaces.

Saane Siale [03:25:12] Right?

John Dehlin [03:25:13] I imagine in their minds they're thinking, were they, like, throwing pies in the faces of BYU administrators and saying Black Lives Matter? Were they chaining themselves to administration buildings? Were they holding black power marches through campus? Like, I'm sure in their minds, they're like, they're thinking out really radical group. What radical thing?

Saane Siale [03:25:36] Oh, yes, let me clarify. Let me clarify. Yeah, so what they were doing, the basis of what they were doing is that they would hold on campus interviews. So they would interview students, obviously with their verbal permission. So they never interviewed somebody that didn't want to be interviewed, that didn't want to be recorded.

John Dehlin [03:25:54] So consensual.

Saane Siale [03:25:55] Yes. So obviously they were big on consent and making sure that people agreed. And so they interviewed students and asked them basic questions, whether it was about Black Lives Matter or Blue Lives Matter or Donald Trump and Biden or certain excerpts, you know, that, you know, from the church or certain, you know, doctrinal questions. It was literally just an interview basis of what they were doing. They would interview students on campus. And again, they weren't. They weren't putting out their opinions or sharing what, you know, they believed in. They were letting the students speak for themselves and, and illustrate to the world and to BYU and to people within the church that look. Look at what, you know, this student population. Look at how they think, look at how they perceive. Look at also their face.

Beau Oyler [03:26:45] It wasn't.

Saane Siale [03:26:46] No. Yeah, it wasn't.

John Dehlin [03:26:46] It was just like tick tock and Instagram short videos.

Saane Siale [03:26:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:26:50] What are some. Give. Give some examples of some of the questions that would be asked of the students. Just three, three to five questions.

Nate Byrd [03:26:57] Like, so, for one, we asked people if they knew, like, what land BYU was built on, like what indigenous land it was built on. We asked people if they supported gay marriage. We asked people if they voted for Donald Trump or Biden. We asked who said this, Brigham Young or Adolf Hitler. And it was like the penalty for interracial marriage is death on the spot or something like that. We asked people, man, so many different questions. What else do we ask them?

John Dehlin [03:27:27] Is BYU racist or is it racist?

Nate Byrd [03:27:29] We asked them if they believe that BYU was an inclusive school. We asked them how many black friends they had. You know, so just all different kinds

John Dehlin [03:27:37] of questions, but not in your face. You never argued. You were never trying to shame anybody.

Nate Byrd [03:27:41] Literally, our response to every single answer. We'd ask them a question, we'd hold out our microphone, they would respond and we'd say, cool, that's it. Or thank you, or per. If you were Rachel.

Saane Siale [03:27:50] Right.

Nate Byrd [03:27:52] But that was. That was it. That's all we did, you know, and then that was the end of the video, you know, and these are 12 minute videos on.

John Dehlin [03:27:59] On Instagram and Tik Tok.

Nate Byrd [03:28:01] Yeah. Usually no more than like 60 to 90 seconds.

John Dehlin [03:28:03] Yeah, yeah. And then they'd go viral.

Saane Siale [03:28:06] Oh, yeah, exactly.

Nate Byrd [03:28:08] Because the answers were so ridiculous.

John Dehlin [03:28:10] Yeah.

Saane Siale [03:28:11] Again, it just highlighted. Just. Again, like, like what we've, Me and Nate have been talking about. Just the lack of. The lack of knowledge, the huge misconception and misunderstanding of whether it be the black experience or just the student of color experience or just with church history and US history in general. It just, it just highlighted. Just imagine like this one student times 30,000. Right. We're talking about a whole student population who very much share these problematic beliefs. And so imagine if that's the kind of college experience you're entering into. That's why we talk about this hostility, this constant tension of. And that's why I Think it was very so clever what black menacists did because they did it in such a way where, like you said, it wasn't in people's faces, it wasn't demeaning in any way or, you know, destructive. If anything, it was simply just highlighting and showcasing to people. This is how people think on this campus. And people who are of, you know, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we're just showing people that we're not giving them a script. This is generally random people that you pick out of, you know, people walking on campus, and these are their thoughts and ideas. And when we think about that in the bigger picture, on a grander scale, how scary that is, truthfully, and how problematic that is when you think about. So these are the future leaders that are supposed to graduate and go forth and serve. But serve who? Right? Like serve who. And so, yeah, that's something that I, I think, you know, black menaces was really key into. You can't ignore how ignorant this population of, of, of not only members, but students are in campus and administration are.

John Dehlin [03:30:18] And so what, what did you see as the result of, of the efforts of the black menaces on campus and in the church more broadly?

Saane Siale [03:30:29] That's a great question. In terms of results, I mean, I still think that they're ongoing. I mean, has, like, when we think about, oh, has BYU drastically changed? No, not since the time, you know, that black menaces have started. But do I think that. But I know that the administration are aware of them. I know that they're aware of, you know, the perception of BYU and the perception of the church. And so to me, that's a result from what they've done is that you can't hide forever. You can't hide this history, this ugly history. And you would think that we would be the first or the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints would be at the forefront of atoning for what church history has looked like and been like. You would think that they would be at the forefront of, of apologizing, of acknowledging, excuse me, and recognizing all the wrongdoings. And yet they are not at the forefront of that. And so that's a huge result that I think black menaces cultivated is really starting the conversation of what it looks like to atone for the past. I mean, that's why I really admire people like Bryan Stevenson, for those of you that know, know he was African American lawyer back in the 70s, represented people on death row, specifically African American men. And he talks about how, like, when you go to. To Germany. You can't walk, you know, a foot without seeing some sort of reminder about the Holocaust and what took place and, and how. And. And the many, you know, Jewish people and all kinds of people that, you know, were prosecuted and killed. You are constantly reminded of that. And he talks about how in the country of America and even at byu, having a statue of Brigham Young, we have reminders of racist people. We have reminders of the peoples that perpetuated these wrongdoings, not reminders about what we did and why it was so wrong. And so again, he talks about how we have to remember our legacy in order to progress and move forward. And that's just something that I know the church has. Has not done and BYU has not done. And it's, it's. It's disappointing constantly. And that's an understatement, quite frankly. It's. Yeah,

John Dehlin [03:33:00] some are going to see this question as confrontational, and you don't have to answer it, but how do you do either of you want to comment on current Mormon prophet President Russell M. Nelson receiving, like, the Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King Award for like world, like social justice, advocacy, anti racism, whatever that award was like. Do either of you have a comment on that?

Nate Byrd [03:33:31] You want to go first?

Saane Siale [03:33:34] You can go first. I'm still processing.

John Dehlin [03:33:38] Yeah.

Nate Byrd [03:33:38] So when I first saw that, my first reaction was, what the hell? Like, what is this? It baffled my mind that they would lump Russell M. Nelson in with Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela as someone who was deserving of that kind of award. I thought it was pretty outrageous. And I also thought that the only reason that he would even be getting an award like that was because of money. Right? Yeah. I think that the church probably paid the right people, and in return, they get that award because there's no. President Nelson has not done anything that would warrant him receiving that kind of award, especially over other people, you know, other activists, other people who have done so much for the country for, you know, different movements, what have you. I've never heard of Bryan Stevenson receiving that reward. I've never heard of Ibram X. Kendi receiving that award. Maya Angelou. There are so many other people alive and dead, who are more deserving of that award than Russell M. Nelson. Not to say that he is a bad person, but he has not done anything in his life that I know of that is worthy of him being. What's the word I'm looking for? I guess with his name being put alongside names like that, like Nelson Mandela and the fight against Apartheid in his country, Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement, Mahatma Gandhi and Indian liberation. And then you have Russell M. Nelson, who did. It's not like. I mean, maybe if it was Joseph Smith, that would have made, like, slightly more sense since, you know, they at least, you know, traveled halfway across the country.

Saane Siale [03:35:34] Right.

Nate Byrd [03:35:34] It just doesn't make any sense for him to receive that award.

John Dehlin [03:35:37] I mean, he can't even clean up byu. It's kind of the context.

Nate Byrd [03:35:40] I'm asking the question, like, so the only reason that he would get that award is because of money. I think that they paid the right people.

Beau Oyler [03:35:46] People.

Nate Byrd [03:35:46] And in return, they receive that prestigious award from a black university. Yeah. I just find it ridiculous.

Saane Siale [03:35:58] I totally agree with what Nate has said. And it's like. I think of. When I think of, like, the fruits of his labor, I don't even see the fruits. So it's just like, what labor, what work has he done to bring to fruition again, the names that we've talked about? It's incomparable. Like, yes, I know he stood in front of a general conference and say how we need to root out racism. That's it. That's the only thing that I've heard that's even slightly remotely related to when we're talking specifically about the issue of race. But in terms of tangible. Tangible things that could. That could have been done within the church. One just even talking about the church history, actually teaching that in Sunday school, actually including that. And come follow me. Pamphlets and booklets, none of that has. Has. None of that has been done. And so, again, it's just, yeah, like Nate said, outrageous that he would receive an award like that. And again, people might be like, well, he's the prophet. He's done so much good. He's the mouthpiece for God. And. And to me, that. That means nothing to me, because I haven't seen. Because when I think of people like, you know, Martin Luther King, like Nelson Mandela, when you read, you know, their. Their journal entries and whatnot, they were led by God and what they did. We're talking about Nelson Mandela, who was imprisoned for decades. He was in prison and still had the faith to go against, you know, this apartheid. And Martin Luther King, who was also, you know, put in jail and demonized for, you know, basic human rights that we now view as basic human rights to not be judged by the color of your skin. And so I see those.

John Dehlin [03:37:50] Gandhi spent a lot of time in prison, too.

Saane Siale [03:37:51] Yes, and Gandhi as well. Yes. Yeah. And so, again, I see those. Again Examples and those people and, and, and the activism that they did and led. And I view, and I see Russell Nelson, it's not even in the same ballpark, not even close. And so again, it's, it's confusing to me that I've only ever heard this man say root out racism. And that's about it. There are black students at BYU that have done more and that. And that's the truth.

Nate Byrd [03:38:21] Done more. Don't. Don't. The award.

Saane Siale [03:38:31] No, but yeah, seriously, again, Asani's done

John Dehlin [03:38:34] more for, for people of color in the Mormon Church than Russell and Nelson.

Nate Byrd [03:38:39] Yeah, that's a factual statement.

John Dehlin [03:38:43] And Nate.

Nate Byrd [03:38:44] And Nate, I mean, maybe he's given more money to the NAACP than we have, but that's about it.

John Dehlin [03:38:49] Kind of wasn't his money. Right.

Nate Byrd [03:38:51] Even the aac, it was our timing, so I guess we gave that to him.

Saane Siale [03:38:55] Right? No, but even like the NAACP even talked about. I can't remember exactly who it was,

Nate Byrd [03:39:02] the special counsel to the president. He said that they had not done anything. They'd said a lot, but hadn't done anything.

Saane Siale [03:39:07] Exactly. We're talking about again, people. And that's the issue too, with membership and members of the church. They'll see a picture of Russell M. Nelson shaking hands with the president of the NAACP and think that, see, look how progressive the prophet is. Look how amazing he is and all these relationships he's cultivating and formulating for. Like, of course, like, we love black people, you know, like, you know, they'll see those things and it's just like, there's nothing tangible behind that.

John Dehlin [03:39:35] It's like a photo op.

Saane Siale [03:39:36] Exactly. It's a photo op. It's a PR stunt. Because literally people from the NAACP have called out the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints for not doing enough. They're all. They talk a lot. But is there anything tangible behind that? Any actual actions? No, it's very performative. And that's, that's my issue when it comes to the church leadership and the institution. It's very performative. You make it seem like you care. You make it seem like there's directions to make change, but there's, there's nothing to that backs that up.

Nate Byrd [03:40:12] Not to mention that that entire relationship is an effort to repair all the damage the church has done in the past because they've been speaking out against the NAACP for decades. And this is President Nelson's way of, I guess, beginning to repair that relationship.

John Dehlin [03:40:25] Without apologizing?

Nate Byrd [03:40:26] Without. Exactly. Well, apparently they've apologized privately. You know, they apologize to the president of the nacp. I think they, you know, they. In private, they apologize, but will not apologize publicly. Quickly.

John Dehlin [03:40:38] I didn't know that.

Nate Byrd [03:40:39] And will categorically deny fake apologies as well. So, you know. But, yeah, I mean, I forgot what

John Dehlin [03:40:48] I was saying, but that's just a lot of.

Saane Siale [03:40:50] A lot of things.

John Dehlin [03:40:51] Okay. So is there anything else, Sana, you'd like to say about your time at byu? Your attempts to be an advocate for social justice, an activist for social justice at byu? I'm sure there's so much we're missing in terms of initiatives you spearheaded or participated in by the time you finish at byu. Anything else you want to share about your story?

Saane Siale [03:41:16] Yeah, I'm trying to think if there's anything else I would add to that.

John Dehlin [03:41:25] How are you feeling by the end of your time at byu?

Saane Siale [03:41:29] Oh, man, How I felt nearing the end of my time at byu. It's the same way that I felt when I ended high school, but for in a different aspect, it felt like the end of an era. And what I mean by that. So, man, so much effort. I look back at my college experience and I'm like, damn. So much of my college experience was not even just going to school or appreciating my college experience. Most of my college experience was trying to change my college experience. And trying to change the college experience experience of other people that I felt for that. I loved that if I couldn't feel included, I at least wanted them to. And so it was this weird, kind of, like, sad, but also a sense of pride in the sense that, like, I did the absolute best that I could. I knew that I could walk away from that campus. I haven't been back since, but I knew that I could walk away from that campus knowing that I did everything within my possible capabilities of trying to make it better, of trying to change it for the better. And so I at least walked away knowing that, you know, having that confirmation that I did everything that I could, but also a sense of grief that I didn't see the changes that I had hoped to see with all the work that me and Nate and so many other students tried to do for so long during our experience, and even students previous to us and obviously students now there, now, and who will continue to fight. There was a sense of sadness that I also felt because I had hoped that those changes that I had longed for and wished for, I wanted to see that happen before I left. Because for me, I thought so much about students to come, students like me and students like Nate, students that felt these things and internally struggled with these things. I wanted those changes to happen at BYU so that they didn't have to deal with what we dealt with. And so there's a sense of grief that that just didn't get to be accomplished. And I won't say that our efforts were wasted, but, I mean, you know, there's the other part where it's just like, were they appreciated, were they acknowledged as much? I don't know. I. I don't know. You know, the things that we've done. I don't know. Nate, how you feel with, like, Black Menaces, what that. How you feel that would, you know, affect future generations at byu? I'm not sure I. That's a question mark for me.

Nate Byrd [03:44:37] Hopefully, it encourages them not to come.

John Dehlin [03:44:40] That's how you feel?

Nate Byrd [03:44:41] Well, I say that I'm being a little bit facetious, but at the same time, if less people come to BYU because they don't want to be in that environment, then there's less tuition being paid. And then when there's less tuition being paid, then more money has to be spent keeping BYU open. And then when the church gets hit in the pocketbooks, then you'll start to see some changes, because, you know, whenever it comes to big organizations, money is where. Is where the changes are made. You know, recent example, Fox News fired their biggest star because he cost them $787 million.

Beau Oyler [03:45:17] Right.

Nate Byrd [03:45:17] You know, and so when you hit him where it hurts, that's when changes are made. So when I say, you know, I hope that Black Menaces encourages students not to come, I just mean that I hope that, you know, it has some influence on BYU's ability to change, because I think it'll change eventually, but by the time it does, it's going to be far too late. And also, I just don't want black students to go through or just students of color. I don't want students of color to go through the isolation and the efforts to assimilate and the feelings of loneliness and all of those things that come with being a student at byu. I want the. To, at the very least, if they're going to come, to be equipped with how to deal with that and not get blindsided like so many students do, especially coming through the SOAR program. You know, you think that's going to be one experience, and then you get there and find out that the experience you had at SOAR is not at all like your experience at BYU and just kind of blindsided. I felt that way. I didn't Go to Soar. But I felt blindsided. I felt very lonely. So I know you kind of experience the same thing. You know, my friends and siblings and all that same kind of thing where it's, you know, you expect one thing, then you get there. It's completely different.

Saane Siale [03:46:24] Yeah. And there's so many layers to it that people, again, like you, unless you go to BYU and experience and see the things that, you know, both me and Nate have witnessed. Like I've sat in rooms with administration. I've sat in rooms of people that, you know, have the power to make changes, or at least I thought. And, and constantly seeing, you know, leaving these meetings and seeing nothing being changed, seeing nothing really, it almost makes you think, why did we meet in the first place? Why did you listen to my perspective in the first place? Or why are you asking me to lead this student committee if there's obstacles and pushback for projects and things that we want to do? So do you want to change or not? Right. It's like this constant question of, like, what is this working toward? Because I do have hope that BYU will change. But like Nay has said, it's already been too late. It's already been too late for so many students. And so if that's not already a wake up call now and we're waiting for another decade of this BS to continue, let's just, like, that's. I don't know, that's disheartening, that's disappointing, and that's scary to think about that. Yeah. I mean, in so many different levels, even with the way that BYU handles, you know, the athletics program, black and brown athletes, you know, there's so many layers to the BYU experience that are so toxic and extremely problematic. It's just almost like. It's almost overwhelming. It's like, where do we begin? But it's also like we have to start somewhere, and they haven't started somewhere. And so that's what's frustrating.

John Dehlin [03:48:10] So, Sunny, are you proud to have graduated from byu? Ashamed. Where do you stand in terms of how you feel about being a BYU graduate? Yeah, if you want to label it, you don't have to label it.

Saane Siale [03:48:22] Sure. I don't necessarily have a label to it. It's not something that I necessarily show off. Like, I'm a BYU graduate. That's not something that I share. That's not something that is at the forefront of something that I'm necessarily proud of. You know, it's a mix of I'm proud that I did the things that I did at that campus I'm proud of, like, the work that we did or tried to do, at least. But at the same time, it's also just like, I don't know. I don't know where that work went or where those efforts went or what that led to. And maybe I'll never really know or understand or see. See for myself what that looks like, what that will turn into. And so there's an aspect where it's just like, I wouldn't. I wouldn't necessarily say that I'm proud that I went to byu. I'm proud that I did the things that I did in an environment like byu. Yeah, that's what I would say, that I didn't fold on my beliefs. I didn't fold on who I was and always was previous to my BYU experience. If anything, I strengthened those beliefs. And so, yeah, that's what I'm proud of, is that, you know, I did those things despite being in the environment that I was where there was so much pushback, where it could have been easy to give up. It could have been so easy to just be like, you know what? I'm done. I'm leaving. And which I don't judge people who do leave BYU or don't continue the education. If anything, I have a lot of empathy and understanding, but at least for myself, I'm proud that I, you know, got through that experience doing the things that I did alongside people like Nate as well.

John Dehlin [03:50:13] And, Nate, you just said you don't you hope people of color won't attend byu. So I'm. I'm wondering how you would answer that question.

Nate Byrd [03:50:20] Oh, answer the question. Am I proud that I. That I graduated from byu? I'm proud that I graduated, yes. Because the graduation rate, according to the CO Rev report for black students is, I think, 58%. So roughly one out of every two black students that goes to BYU does not graduate. So I'm proud that I graduated, that I made it out, but it's also not a flexibility to say that I graduated from byu.

Saane Siale [03:50:54] Exactly. Yeah. That's a good way to describe it.

Nate Byrd [03:50:56] It's not something that I would ever want to bring up in conversation. You know, just. And I almost want to pursue further education just so that I can say I went to somewhere else and have that on my resume instead of byu, because there's so many connotations that come with that, especially with all the press that BYU has gotten in the last

Saane Siale [03:51:14] few years, not just for LGBTQ stuff, but also.

Nate Byrd [03:51:18] Yeah, for a lot of things.

Saane Siale [03:51:19] A lot of Things.

Nate Byrd [03:51:20] Racism.

Saane Siale [03:51:20] Racism, yeah.

Nate Byrd [03:51:22] Weird sex stuff.

Saane Siale [03:51:24] Yeah.

Nate Byrd [03:51:24] There's all kind of things.

Saane Siale [03:51:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:51:26] And would be. Would. Would. And I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm genuinely curious. Would. Would saying, I'm ashamed to have attended byu, would that be taking it too far or embarrassed? Ashamed or embarrassed to be associated with byu? And again, don't let me put words in your mouth. I'm just curious.

Beau Oyler [03:51:49] You're good.

Nate Byrd [03:51:50] You're good. I just. I hadn't really thought about that. That's such a. It's such a strong word. But I feel like. I don't know if ashamed really describes it, but. I'm certain it's certainly not something that I'm proud of or that I want to define myself by. You know, I don't want to be defined as a BYU graduate.

Saane Siale [03:52:19] Yeah.

Nate Byrd [03:52:20] I'd much rather. I'd want to be defined by the efforts that I made while attending BYU to change it. Right. That's very powerful, what you said. Like, your whole college experience was spent trying to change your college experience.

Saane Siale [03:52:30] Yeah.

Nate Byrd [03:52:31] Yeah, That's. That's really what was. So. I'd much rather want to be defined by the things that I did and the changes that I tried to make during my time there than the fact that I went there.

Saane Siale [03:52:42] And I'm curious for you, Beau, knowing that I was at BYU and knowing how I was growing up with my activism, because at least for me, growing up in the church, people were excited that I was coming to byu. Nobody warned me. Nobody told me that it would be hard. And college is hard in general, but not hard for the reasons that it was hard, you know, in my experience. And so I'm just curious, like, did I ever cross your mind that we

Beau Oyler [03:53:12] were throwing you to the wolves?

Saane Siale [03:53:13] Yes.

Beau Oyler [03:53:16] No. It never crossed my mind.

Saane Siale [03:53:17] Okay.

Beau Oyler [03:53:19] I think that as we watched you grow from afar, like we watched from afar, most of us, if not all of us, who are your youth leaders who loved you, were just really proud of you.

Saane Siale [03:53:33] Yeah.

Beau Oyler [03:53:33] And still am. Right. And for you to go and continue your voice and to develop your voice and the way that you manifest your voice in such powerful ways at BYU just brings a great sense of pride for me and for Heather, at least. And I know Eleanor and Michelle and Carolyn and all your cheering squad.

Saane Siale [03:53:52] Okay.

Beau Oyler [03:53:53] Yeah. But no. Did not have a sense of, like, whoa, we're sending this girl into. Yeah. Into a situation that she's not prepared for because you're Sune Ciali. Like, you're prepared for anything. Like, you can Take on the world.

Saane Siale [03:54:07] I'm definitely not. But I try to think that I am prepared. No. Yeah, I asked that because I, my parents obviously have no concept of those kinds of layers to BYU that were super difficult. Again, huge celebration. Same thing with my mission, this huge celebration. Same thing with my graduation. Huge celebration for me having been the first graduate, first generation college graduate in my family. But again, without the understanding that there were levels of that racism and different levels of discrimination that I experienced and witnessed that they just, you know, didn't have a concept of. So obviously my parents weren't going to warn me. And so neither did obviously, you know, church membership, which I understand to an extent.

Beau Oyler [03:55:00] Yeah. Which the vast majority of us are white.

Saane Siale [03:55:03] Right, Exactly.

Beau Oyler [03:55:04] I didn't go to byu. I'm no reference for that. Right. But those who did go to BYU or didn't go to byu, generally speaking, are going to be more of a white lived experience. Right. So even the warning of, or, hey, honey, you may want to be prepared with this, you know, probably isn't going to come because it is so much of a white experience. That's why I think that it's so powerful and important for your voices to be heard. Right. This is our lived experience at BYU and the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours that we spent trying to improve the lived experience of people of color at byu. It's why it's so important to hear the story. Because most of the white people at BYU aren't living that experience.

Saane Siale [03:55:50] Exactly. Yeah.

Nate Byrd [03:55:51] And anyone, any, any white person that did have a negative experience at BYU is probably not going to be in the war to tell you about it, most likely.

John Dehlin [03:55:58] Yep.

Nate Byrd [03:55:59] So it just kind of gets tossed out of the window.

Saane Siale [03:56:02] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:56:04] So, Sanai. And again, this is putting a real fine point on it, but if 18 year old Polynesian hopeful Mormon young man or young woman comes to you and says, sanai, you graduated from byu, should I go to BYU too? Do you know what you would say to that person?

Saane Siale [03:56:26] See, that's difficult in the sense that there were Polynesian students that loved byu, that loved their experience, that didn't see issues with racism, that didn't see issues with LGBTQ like the homophobia and all those things, because a lot of Polynesian members subscribe to those beliefs the same way their white LDS counterparts did. And so for me, I was, I guess, an anomaly. An anomaly in the sense that in my own, like within my own community of Polynesian people, I had people from my own community who considered me super liberal and radical as a Negative thing as a bad thing, that I was a bad member. Again, feeling ostracized, even from people within my own community at BYU who didn't support the things that I was supporting, didn't support the work that I was doing behind the scenes. When I think of a Polynesian student coming to me asking if they should go to BYU or not, they probably could go and enjoy it and not. And not. And not see the issues that I saw, because again, my experience was unique and different from a lot of other pollen. That's not to say that there aren't Polynesians like me who are like minded, who are involved with social justice or activism. There are those that exist, but they're also very few and far and in between. And so at least if it was a Polynesian student like me who cares about the things that I care about, who does support Black Lives Matter, who does support LGBTQ people, I would caution them to think about what that's going to look like for their experience. But the average Polynesian who subscribes to beliefs of the white majority at BYU already, you'll fit right in.

Nate Byrd [03:58:36] Yes.

Saane Siale [03:58:37] No. Honestly, though, you'll get right along with no. And it's so true. I mean, I even like black faculty that worked within the athletics department, and if, you know, the athletics department at byu, a lot of the faculty within that department are also Polynesian. And I remember speaking with black faculty that worked around and they would ask me, why are you the way that you are? But people that come from your same culture, same ethnic, racial background, are kind of racist or they subscribe to these beliefs that I'm not surprised by my white counterparts and why they believe the things that they believe. But I'm surprised that fellow ethnic, multicultural people, I'm surprised that, you know, Polynesian people believe and subscribe to those problematic beliefs. And so that's something. And I don't know, Nate, if you agree with that, if you were surprised by meeting Polynesian people that aren't always like me or have the same thoughts. I don't know.

Nate Byrd [03:59:43] I don't know. I would say from my experience, it seems like you are the exception to the rule.

Saane Siale [03:59:50] I would agree with that. Yeah.

Nate Byrd [03:59:53] And we love you for it.

Saane Siale [03:59:55] And so, yeah, that's what I. That's why that question is hard for me to answer, because it's like you could. Then, you know, the average Polynesian might actually fit in with, you know, whereas I personally did not.

John Dehlin [04:00:09] And, Nate, I'll ask you the same question. So a black student, a black Mormon, High school senior from Alabama or Wisconsin or California comes to you and says, should I go to BYU as a black student, Mormon? Do you have a response you think you would offer?

Nate Byrd [04:00:29] I would ask them what they expect to get out of their time at byu.

John Dehlin [04:00:33] And,

Nate Byrd [04:00:36] you know, if they want an education that is deeply, I guess, centered in Mormonism, and if they want certain experiences, then I'll tell them that that's where they need to be. But if they want, you know, if they want to be involved in activism or if they want to be involved in, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion, if they want to, you know, just kind of do things that are maybe go against the grain of byu, then I would probably recommend that they go somewhere else. I'm not going to, you know, tell anyone, no, you shouldn't go here, but I'm going to say, well, you know, based on whatever you expect, just know that this is what you're going to get at BYU as opposed to if you go somewhere else. And you know what I've learned, too, because black menaces, we've traveled to a few different campuses, and what I've learned is that the BYU experience is not entirely different from the experience of black students at any other predominantly white university, but it is magnified a little bit because of the added lens of the church. Yeah, but, yeah, at other universities, they still experience racism from faculty, from students. There's still incidents on campus, but at the same time, they have a little bit more support from administration, you know, due to whether it's federal mandates or what have you. But there is a little bit more support at other universities. Whereas because BYU is run by the church, the church dictates all. So, yeah, it would definitely depend on what they expect to get out of their education. I'd probably just tell them to go to hbcu, to be honest.

John Dehlin [04:02:17] Historically black colleges and universities, right?

Saane Siale [04:02:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:02:20] Yeah. Okay, well, let's shift gears now, and as we're kind of wrapping. Wrapping up, let's talk about your faith and your faith trajectory. You, we, you know, we ended talking about your faith kind of with your mission and how you had stopped emphasizing any uniquely Mormon doctrines or teachings or beliefs, and it was just all about Jesus and Christ. That was kind of the core of your testimony, for sure. How has your Mormon testimony progressed during your final three years at BYU to now? Do you want to take us through that progression?

Faith Transition: Race, Sexuality, and Leaving the Church

Saane Siale [04:02:59] Yeah, for sure. I really think what propelled my, you know, my faith transition and just kind of really confronting with what do I believe in really started at the height of the pandemic, because that's when, you know, we didn't have to go to church in person. We could do church online via Zoom. And so that was like the first time in my life where not going to church felt great. Not being in the environment that I was in and putting myself in where, you know, again, I mean, when I, When I was going to church, I would hear, you know, friends that would tell me that, oh, this person said this about, you know, whether it be the way that I dressed or I've been called libtard when I was going to church. And so I was always perceived as this very radical. And that was almost coinciding with like, oh, she's on the evil side. And so that affected attending church. Not so much that I stopped going altogether, but what I. But when the pandemic happened and not having to go to church, it was a breath of fresh air. Being able to separate myself from an environment that wasn't really serving me and didn't really accept me. And for the things that I was vocal about during my college experience at BYU and during that time was really. It was nice in the sense of like, okay, I can do church things or on my own, or I could do it in my own way, or I can learn in my own way and not, you know, have this very structured way of, like, being taught or. And it wasn't until, I mean, like, I don't want to say post pandemic because we're still going through it, we're still experiencing Covid and whatnot, but I guess after we were allowed to come back in person on campus and even within my relationship at the time. I have a lot of gratitude for my second relationship because it opened. I had conversations with my boyfriend at

John Dehlin [04:05:19] the time about was he LDS return missionary the second?

Saane Siale [04:05:23] No, he did not serve mission. He had plans to, but didn't end up started, but then made the decision to shift and not serve a mission, which I supported him either way. I support you going and I support you not going. That was never an issue, that he never served a mission. But yeah, that relationship really allowed me to have these doubts and not feel scared to share them or talk about them. Being able to discuss that and have that dialogue was really important to me because at the time, obviously, him being the closest, closest person to me, being the person that knew the most about me and, and, and being comfortable and being trusting with being vulnerable, it allowed me to really critically think for myself and on my own. Is this, is this a part of My life that I, that I want to continue. And again, that was, that was a very kind of like, I don't want to use the word secretive, but almost secretive part of my life because I was still going to byu. My boyfriend at the time, he graduated at the height of the pandemic, so he was already done in April 2022. Whereas, like, I knew that I had about two years left and I didn't, I, and I was nervous about what, you know, my doubts in the church, how that would look like and how that would affect my college education and in my. Yeah, like that was, that was a legitimate fear and I know that was a legitimate fear for a lot of students that felt the same way that I did. Are these doubts, you know, of the church, you know, going to affect me being able to graduate? That was something that I thought about constantly. So it wasn't something that I was really open about. I just knew that over time, you know, 20, 20 and onward, I was slowly distancing myself from, from the church and, and, and, and being the natural person that I am and believing in the things that I believe in, you know, supporting same sex marriage. Those are things that are, that do not doctrinally align with the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. Even, even being someone that has friends who are trans and supporting their transition and supporting, you know, them living their own lives and whatever that looks like for them, sitting with that and confronting that. I believe in these things, I believe in these people's way of living goes against the church that I was born into, the church that I grew up in. And that was really where it's just like, this is, it's no longer just about I can hold on to Jesus and I'm okay. It was more so the things that I believe in and the things that I've always believed in and fought for and continue to fight, fight for are not aligned with the church that I grew up in. And that was really the turning point for me where it's just like, okay, my beliefs just do simply do not match, are not aligned. And so what does that mean? What does that mean for me? And again, I really go back to that relationship and it gave me the confidence, it gave me the support to see a life outside of the church because he was going through his own faith transition. And we were very adamant about communicating to each other that, don't do this for me, do this for you. And we were both very open about this has nothing to do with our relationship and our love for each other. And More so about who we are as individuals. And so that was key to me kind of having that self confidence to. Okay, yeah, no, this has nothing to do with love interest or, you know, or anyone in or outside of my life. This is generally something within me. And so once I made that turning point, that realization, it made it so much easier to. Well, I shouldn't say easier, because, I mean, we're talking about me shifting my entire identity away from what was so integral to my experience growing up Mormon. Yeah. So I wouldn't say it was easy, but it definitely. The life outside of the church was more possible. It was actually a reality. It was tangible to me. And so I'm really grateful for that because even now, having graduated byu, even mentally and emotionally, I have never been in a more healthier place. Place. Mentally and emotionally, never been in this kind of place that I am now. When I look at. In comparison in the church, it's just night and day. And so again, that's why, you know, I. I go back to just how mentally draining and mentally exhausting it was for me, trying to reconcile, trying to be both. And it just got to the point where it's just like, you know what? I don't need to keep trying to make it work. I can be who I am, believe in the ideals that Christ did and who he was as a person and who he represents symbolically and whatnot. But in terms of, like, the doctrine of the church, in regards to my very specific beliefs, I just knew that it wouldn't make sense for me to stay any longer if. Yeah. So long. Winded answer, but it's great. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:10:54] You know, you. You've spoken a lot about LGBT stuff as it relates to the church's policies.

Saane Siale [04:11:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:11:01] And then you've talked a lot about traditional Mormon views on things like Black Lives Matter.

Saane Siale [04:11:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:11:09] Or racism.

Saane Siale [04:11:10] Yeah. Or sexual violence, too.

John Dehlin [04:11:12] And sexual violence.

Saane Siale [04:11:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:11:13] What I haven't heard you address specifically as much is doctrinal racism within Mormonism.

Saane Siale [04:11:21] And here's what I mean by that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:11:23] The Mormon Church is unique amongst Christian churches in the following way. The Bible, you know, the Bible has problems. You know, there's points in the Bible where it condones slavery, for example, but. But like, overt. The type of overt racism that's extant in Mormon scripture stands unique to overt racism in the Bible. And what I mean by that specifically is the curse of Cain, the idea that Cain sinned and so he was given black skin as a curse. That's not in the Bible. Christians remind Me of that. That's not in the Bible. You know where it is found? It's in the. It's in the Book of Abraham, which is Mormon. It's in the Book of Moses, which is Mormon. And it's in the Doctrine and Covenants, which is Mormon. So it's like Joseph Smith couldn't produce scripture without inserting the curse of Cain into it. He was incapable. And then the. What's the one book we're not mentioning? The Book of Mormon. I forget whether the Curse of Cain is specifically in the Book of Mormon. I have to think that it.

Nate Byrd [04:12:39] It's not. They talk about, okay, of blackness, but

John Dehlin [04:12:41] what is in the Book of Mormon is the Lamanite curse, which again, is Lamanites being cursed with dark skin, number one, because of their wickedness, and number two, so that white people would find the Native Americans loathsome. Right? Yeah, I haven't heard you address that.

Saane Siale [04:13:00] No, yeah, that. And that's also a huge part as well, in terms of. And again, when I. When I speak about the trans community, I can't speak about the trans community without specifically mentioning the black trans community. And so, again, so there is doctrinally, the. The race aspect that also affected also my experience, not only distancing myself from the church, but really asking myself, like, can I, can I believe in this any longer? Because it's so. It goes against, you know, everything that I've come to understand and come to, you know, advocate for. And so, yes, doctrinally, with. When it comes to race and the curse of Cain and even just again, going back to the church history and just seeing, you know, the lack of willingness to even apologize or recognize or acknowledge and atone, you know, for the sins of, you know, not only the church, but even on a grander scale within this country, but specifically with the church, seeing that time and time again and how that to this day is not a priority, again, just showed me why would I be a part of this institution that wants nothing to do with taking ownership in atoning for those things. And not even just with black people in the priesthood, also with Native Americans, the justification for mass genocide. I mean, the poorest demographic within the United States of America are Native Americans. And we don't talk about the history with that, too, and the lens of Mormonism and how it did everything but uplift that group of people. And I can see Mormons saying, wait,

John Dehlin [04:14:58] the Indian placement program tried to help Native Americans?

Saane Siale [04:15:01] Oh, gosh, sorry, that was a. No, no, you're good. I mean, we can bring up, you know, no, it's the same thing with like the, the church meeting with the nac, naacp or the church talking with, you know, gay members or like, oh, see, look, they're trying and they're doing all these things. But again, time and time again it's proven to be performative. It's proven to have nothing tangible. Follow those quote, unquote amazing like actions that the church has done throughout history. That, and I'm like, and if we really want to be real, we bring up those like tiny examples. And that is nowhere near the kind of resolution or reparations that, you know, black Americans or Native Americans truly deserve. We're talking about any ratio of people in a culture, one like tiny little like speck of like an organization that, that, that's not even close to, to what we owe back to people that experienced generations of mass genocide and enslavement. And so again, it just goes back to how can I be a part of an institution in a church that can not even at the bare minimum, can't even say sorry. At the bare minimum, can't even say sorry, let alone all the other things that would would be required in order to. I mean, you can't even make those things right at this point. But even just, you know, the efforts to try to make it right, I haven't seen that. And I think with my experience at byu, it just showed me just seeing people have the choices to do something and choose to not do something again also negatively impacted the, my own personal experience. But again, yeah, doctrinally seeing that, whether it was with race or same sex marriage or trans people and trans rights, all those things really are what drew me and pushed me away and what ultimately led to my decision walking away. And again, I've never publicly said that or shared that really. I feel like people have always been confused with where I stand. But yeah, if I were to explain like where that stems from and where that comes from, it would be because of those things.

John Dehlin [04:17:36] And have you had that conversation with your parents or other believing family?

Saane Siale [04:17:40] No, I mean, other than my younger sister, maybe my brother here and there. But any explicit conversations I have not. And again, that's not to say that. I mean, that's not to say that I still don't have respect for people who are within the church. I mean, a lot of my family members are still very active. I mean, I have a nephew that's about to go on a mission. I have another nephew that is on a mission right now in Hawaii. And so again, there's so much of my family that are very proactive within the church. And so I haven't. I mean, I still have, you know, respect for what they believe in and what they choose and how they choose to live their life. But at the same time, I. I don't feel true to myself or authentic to myself if I. If I were to stay just because of that. Just because. I mean, and obviously with the background of my dad and even my mom and whatnot, it's not often that you hear people from my personal background walking away from the church because the church is so integral and so intertwined with. With culturally being Polynesian that it's almost like unheard of. That could even be taken as betrayal by people within my family that, oh, how could you? Or, you know, like that. Those aren't reasons. Good enough reasons at least to leave. And, yeah, I mean, I. I don't know what that'll look like with. With people, you know, knowing that about me, but, I mean, for me, when I think about honoring my Tongan heritage, honoring who my. Who I am and who I want to be, I can't think of not honoring trans people or LGBTQ people, not honoring black people in their history, not honoring Native Americans in their history. To me, I find honor in honoring those people and those marginalized voices and standing up for them. So that's where I draw my honor from. Not from assimilating or going with the crowd or doing what's easy just because everybody else is. Yeah, no one knows. I guess now they will.

John Dehlin [04:20:13] Very powerful. I'm going to ask maybe the hardest question I've asked all day, taking kind of a contrarian point of view for a second, if I may. What if somebody says, look, your parents grew up in poverty, but because they joined the, you know, joined the church and. Or were active in the church, and then they raised you in a strong white Mormon ward. You were able to get the education that they weren't. You were able to get the support that others didn't have who came from similar backgrounds.

Saane Siale [04:20:47] Right.

John Dehlin [04:20:48] Not only were you able to get a 4.0 in high school because of. At least in part because of your Mormon upbringing, your white Mormon upbringing. In some sense, you're able to go to a great university, graduate from that university, and, like, now you're. You're in graduate school. You know, like, it's an act of ingratitude and betrayal of a church that has blessed you and given so much to you. How can you now leave and. Or turn your back on a church that you should just be grateful for and, oh, owe your success to. In so many ways. I know that was abrasive and awful, but I'm channeling what I'm guessing some people might be thinking.

Saane Siale [04:21:36] Oh, for sure. Again, I can totally see exactly what you're saying. People seeing this as an act of ingratitude or how, you know, this. This church gave me so much, but for me, I would push back against it. I would argue, well, the church is also taking so much. I've seen the church take a lot from people, a lot from families that I care about and still care about. And so for me, it's just like, I would think that you would be grateful that I'm standing up to and challenging these ideologies, because I know morally it is what is right, and nothing can convince me otherwise. Supporting people to be who they are and to be safe doing that and to be celebrated doing that. I mean, I think of just the awful history. And again, that's information that my parents don't fully understand. And so, for me, I don't think I would ever allow their skewed perspective to affect my perspective that is grander than theirs, if that makes sense. My proximity to black people, to trans people, to, you know, LGBTQ people in general, to Native American people, to asylum seekers, daca, dreamers, TPS holders, my proximity to all these people that come from these various backgrounds and marginalized communities. My family doesn't have that. Doesn't have the same proximity to those. To those experiences, to those lived experiences. And how the church has been a negative influence in. In. In. In different kinds of ways. I'm not going to say it was all negative. And so that's what I would push back with, is just like, sure, you can call it ingratitude, but how about all of these things that we haven't addressed that you don't even know about? My parents didn't teach me these things. I found that out on my own. And so for me, I would. I would caution anyone, learn. Learn about these things, learn about actual church history, learn about actual US History, then come back to me and tell me that I'm ungrateful. I highly doubt that you would come back. If you have the information and knowledge and education that I have with the history, I highly doubt that you would come back to me and tell me that I'm ungrateful or that I betrayed my family or that I'm bringing this honor. I highly doubt that. And so, yeah, what's that, Nate?

Nate Byrd [04:24:15] Silently agreeing over here?

Saane Siale [04:24:17] And again, obviously, I'm not ignorant to the fact that, you know, people can view this as like an act of like defiance or being rebellious or whatnot. I'm very conscious.

John Dehlin [04:24:30] Or pride.

Saane Siale [04:24:31] Or pride, yeah, for sure. But it's like, it's the same thing where it's just like I can't go back to the version of myself that was unaware. I cannot go back to that. I physically, mentally, emotionally cannot go back to a version of myself that either was unaware, that tolerated certain things, that condoned certain things, that wasn't as self aware as I am now. And so being in the place that I am now, I owe it to myself to not ignore what I know now. And I really attribute that back to the lived experiences of real people that I've been proximate to. And it's not even about proximity, it's about humanity. When I think about my relationship with Christ and where I'm at with my faith transition, it's no longer about this dedication to religiosity, it's about my dedication to humanity. That's where my dedication lies. And so what that looks like is standing up, fighting for human rights, being vocal, challenging the status quo, talking about topics that are taboo, highlighting statistics that people don't know about or things that people haven't critically thought about themselves. Because that's really what it comes down to. People, I think a lot of people have not taken the time to really sit with themselves and critically think about these varying issues and how that plays with history and how that plays with church doctrine. A lot of people haven't. Because that's scary. That's terrifying because then that would mean that you'd be challenging a huge, if not your entire identity. And because that's what, that's the experience that I went through. I was challenging a huge part, if not an entirety of what I used to identify with. And so that was not an easy feat or something. That was just a walk in the park, per se. That took a lot, a lot of years, a lot of contemplation, a lot of internal struggle, a lot of isolation, isolation, loneliness, fear, constantly, you know, worrying about what people would think of me after. Would people see me the same way? Would people? Because people loved me in the church. People loved, you know, who I was as a member, as a returned missionary. People loved who I was as a missionary. And so choosing to walk away from that also meant, you know, are all these people going to seize loving me and respecting me as a human being? That was a huge. Something huge that I've and I'm still trying to grapple with and trying to understand. But, yeah, I mean, it's just more so again, going back to. I can't. I can't go back to that version of myself. I simply can't. And so now being in the place that I'm at, where I'm at in my life at 26 years old, turning 27 in October, I just know that it doesn't make sense and it doesn't speak truthfully to who I am. And so, again, anyone can say whatever they want or make the assumptions that they might or will make about me in my life and the decision that I've made to walk away. But again, it's like I said, if you had the education and knowledge that I have, I would like to think that people would be very understanding.

John Dehlin [04:28:13] And what if they were to say, sanay, listen, the church has given you so much. You are now in a position to stay in the church. And just like you tried at byu, this is an opportunity to stay in the church and improve it from within. And maybe you owe it to the church, since it's given so much to you for you to stay in the church and fight to improve the church from within. What would you say to that?

Saane Siale [04:28:42] I mean, I don't believe that I owe the church anything. I mean, I can see how people can perceive that, oh, all of these accolades and achievements that I've been able to accomplish come from the fact that I grew up as a member of. But I would disagree with that. Like, yes, that was a huge part of my identity. But every, Every a. That I got in one of my classes, that's the work that I did. Like the education that I achieved. Nobody did that for me. Nobody, you know, wrote for me or held my hand, you know, taking tests or applying to colleges, applying to scholarships. At the end of the day, me as an individual, I was the one accomplishing those things. I didn't see it as like, the church did that for me, and because of that, I now owe them. I take ownership in everything that I've done, take responsibility for all of my actions and things that I've achieved. Again, did I have help and support from the church, from my family, from my parents? Sure. Of course. I'll never deny that. I'll never ignore that. If anything, that's. I'll always attribute my success in education and where I'm going now with my. With graduate school, of course, I'll. I'll make space, giving gratitude back to my family not. But not the church. I don't view it in that way. I don't know if that answers your question, but, yeah, if people were to say that or think that again, I guess, you know, there's the group mentality that, you know, the actions of one represent the whole.

John Dehlin [04:30:19] There's the idea that it takes a village to raise a kid.

Saane Siale [04:30:21] Right, right.

John Dehlin [04:30:22] Mormonism was your village, for sure.

Saane Siale [04:30:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:30:25] Was part of that village, right?

Saane Siale [04:30:27] Yeah, yeah, for sure. Definitely. That definitely was a huge part of my development, like having that community support.

John Dehlin [04:30:38] So why not stay and make it better?

Saane Siale [04:30:41] Good question. Why not stay and make it better? Short answer. I tried that. I tried that on the mission. I'm talking about, you know, people who are sexual assault victims. Nothing was done about that. I tried that at byu. Whether it came to race, racism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, all of these varying issues, I tried, I tried that. And I was constantly reminded time and time again that this is not a place where they value the same things that I value. And again, there are people, people close friends of mine who are still active in the church and, you know, they're still in it. They still have their why of being in it and have their reasoning for continuing to be part of it. And I hold no judgment towards people who are in that kind of situation. But I know for me and myself, speaking for myself, I just didn't see a place where it was possible for me to keep trying and seeing tangible change. For me, I saw it being more possible outside of the church more than within it, to be quite honest. And so, yeah, that's what I would say in regards to that.

John Dehlin [04:32:06] So there's how. How effective you think it would have been for you to stay and to try and make change. And you're saying you don't have much optimism that you staying would have made a difference. Do you have a sense for what it might have done to your mental and physical health to stay and try and make a difference?

Saane Siale [04:32:24] Exactly. I mean, when I look back to the years at BYU where I was trying to do that, I was trying to be the Mormon that made all these changes, that actually changed BYU for the better. That actually changed the church for the better. Those were years of my life where I was mentally and emotionally at my worst. And if it wasn't for my draw to therapy and mental health awareness, really, that stemmed from my brother's experience with depression, that really pushed me and drove me to. To be more aware of mental health and advocating for mental health. And so, yeah, when I look back during that time, I wasn't happy. We talked about how like the church makes it possible for you to feel joy. And for me, I didn't feel joy knowing that my closest queer friends, their marriages wouldn't be valid in the eyes of, of God. I wasn't happy with that thought. I wasn't happy with the fact that, you know, me saying that I support same sex marriage, that I wouldn't be able to enter into the temple. And I mean even with like supporting Black Lives Matter and being very vocal about racism and systemic racism and institutional racism, whether it be with Native Americans, Latinx populations, African Americans and just people of color in general, just seeing that continuously happen within the church and seeing the leadership not doing anything about it, and if they did, it really led to nothing tangible. Like I've mentioned time and time again before, that was mentally exhausting, mentally draining, and at least for me spiritually, it felt hopeless. Being in that environment thinking that I'm going to do this, I'm going to change this. And not seeing anything come from no longer felt like this quest of trying to share the message of Christ with everyone. It felt more so a concept distant, defeated experience again. Which is why I say that, you know, mentally I wasn't at my best. And so now having, you know, walked away and distanced myself and not having to choose both and thinking that the weight is on my shoulders to change the church and trying to change an entire leadership and a fabric of doctrine, that's a huge feat for anyone that has that hope or idea that, you know, they're going to do that. And so, and so for me, letting go of that responsibility, that letting go of the idea that I'm not going to save everyone, I can't save everyone, that's Jesus Christ's job, not mine. And so making that distinction was, was really important to me really for the sake of my mental and emotional health, if it wasn't for therapy. And I think back to even my brother having his own experience and even, even, even me having dealt with suicidal ideation and dealing with anxiety and depression. Again, these were, were silent battles that, you know, I was fighting on my own at the same time trying to help and, and feeling like I was responsible for helping all these other people, people helping my family and, and all those things were just so much added pressure that I didn't need to add on to myself. And so again that's why that separation and that transition for me really saved me in a sense from not losing sight of what I had always believed in, which was, you know, you know, in believing in humanity and believing in the sanctity of that and believing in who Christ is, who he was and still is to me, that, yeah, really preserved my emotional mental health in the long run. And I'm really grateful to, you know, past versions of myself for making those steps because I don't know if where I'd be had I not made those efforts.

John Dehlin [04:36:58] You still consider yourself a Christian then?

Saane Siale [04:37:02] Question mark. Question mark. I don't really have a label of like, who, who, like what I believe in a religious sense. Still figuring that out. Even just like the idea of people always referring to heavenly Father, but neverly mother, things like that, you know, doctrinally or culturally, I guess that always bothered me. And so those are things that. Still figuring out for myself what that looks like. But, yeah, believing in again, it's just always. I mean, when I think back growing up in the church, the God in Christ that I believed in never matched people at byu. And so. And again, the God and Jesus Christ that, you know, I. I've believed in and still figuring out if I believe in. There are people within the church who would completely denounce that and, and tell me that my God doesn't exist or a Christ that, you know, would support queer rights doesn't exist, or that would actually, you know, support Black Lives Matter doesn't exist. And so I'm still figuring that out. Not exactly sure what that looks like. But I still. I mean, my relationship with Christ really goes back to my childhood and growing up. And so I don't think that's something that I would ever separate myself from. That's still a huge part of. It's still important to me, I will say. But would I, you know, identify myself as Christian? I don't know. I wouldn't. I wouldn't say yes, and I wouldn't say no. Yeah.

Closing Reflections on Tonga, Family, and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [04:38:46] All right. Well, we started with talking about Tonga and your dad and him coming to the United States from Tonga and joining the church. Maybe, if it's okay, I'd like to end in that same vein. Have you. Have you studied colonialism and have you looked at the Mormon Church's relationship with Tonga and Samoa and Polynesia? Have you looked at that critically with a colonial lens to reflect on whether it's been good, bad, or mix the Mormon Church's heavy involvement with Tonga?

Saane Siale [04:39:26] Yeah, great question.

John Dehlin [04:39:29] Or not yet. That's okay, too.

Saane Siale [04:39:31] It's an ongoing journey for me. Again, you know, the presence of colonialism and colonization, that wasn't something that my dad even talked about. And My dad is probably the closest thing to a Tongan historian, at least for me, in my life. And that's not something that he ever brought up. And so for me, that's been a proactive effort on my end personally to seek that out, to seek out that information. So have I looked at, but through Mormonism and Christianity, through the lens of colonialism and colonization, 100% I have. And I think we give too much credit to them for saving our people,

John Dehlin [04:40:22] to the Mormon Church, for saving the

Saane Siale [04:40:24] Tongan people, Mormon Church and Christianity as a whole. I think we give too much credit that this idea that we were not self sufficient before. And so they kind of came in and fixed that for us. And I completely disagree with that. I mean, my ancestors, my people before me, they were astronomers before we even had that word, before that word even existed. They were scientists, they were medicinal doctors who practice with plant medicine and experts on that. And so when I study that aspect of my Tongan heritage and my ancestral history, I think a lot of that has been lost in translation when we think about the history of Christianity around the world. And I'm sure other people from different cultures would agree with me and say the same thing. And so, yeah, 100% do look through the lens of, of that, of that specific part in history, and that has influenced the way that I view Christianity as a whole. Again, I won't say that Christianity has always been a negative thing throughout life. I mean, I think back to the civil rights movement and so much of we're talking about the most inhumane, unfathomable things that people experience and overcame. And a lot of that they attribute back to their faith in God and their faith in Christ. So people that, you know, went through the worst things you could possibly imagine, they relied on their faith in their religion, in their Christianity, in their belief in God and Jesus to overcome those things. And so, again, I'll never denounce Christianity as a whole because I also make space for the fact that I can't, you know, respect the civil rights movement without also respecting the fact that, you know, people like MLK and even Malcolm X, you know, coming from the Muslim religion, there was so much power and strength that they drew from their spirituality and religious backgrounds that influenced their activism, which was exactly the same reason that, you know, influenced mine growing up. I just think with, specifically with the Mormon Church, with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, it no longer serves the things that I believe to my core, which is why I consciously had made that decision to walk away. But yeah. The idea of God and Christ and a higher being and a higher power, there's still parts of me that want to believe that, that still believe in that. But again, I'm in this period of my faith transition where I'm still figuring out what that looks like. I don't know yet. And so, again, at one point, I never thought that I would be in this position. Never thought that I would ever walk away from the church. I never thought that. And so that's why I'm in the position where I can never say never. I don't know. Don't know what the future will look like or what my path will look like. I just know where I'm at right now. I'm at my emotionally, mentally healthiest and spiritually healthiest than I've ever been before. And that's a beautiful thing and not something that I'm going to sacrifice for anyone, even my parents or people within my family.

John Dehlin [04:43:53] Beautiful. So beautiful. Well, I'm so grateful for your generosity and time, in some ways sharing your story and in some ways raising your voice and in some ways educating all of us about how we need to do better and be better. So thank you.

Saane Siale [04:44:11] Thank you. Appreciate it. Appreciate this platform.

John Dehlin [04:44:16] Nate, anything you want to say as it's so great to have you here? You've added so much to this conversation and to the two Mormon Stories episodes you've been a part of so far, and all you've done with the Black Menaces, along with Sebastian and Rachel and all the others. But we're so glad you're here. Any final words you want to say in response to Sonny's interview?

Nate Byrd [04:44:38] Oh, it's just that I learned a lot today and I'm honored to be here. Thank you for. For inviting me back. And I appreciate all you.

John Dehlin [04:44:46] Beautiful. Any final words, Bo?

Beau Oyler [04:44:50] Yeah, Just how proud I am of Sanne. You know, I've been able to be by her side as an active member of the church. When you were sealed to your family and went to the temple, when you went through the temple for yourself, when you went on your mission and to interview you for your mission and then to send you off to Tahiti and the impact that you had in Oakland on all of us and the impact that you had on the people of Tahiti and the impact you've had at BYU and as we've cheered you on and seen those headlines and looked for you in those crowds right at the front of the line. And it's just I feel so privileged to be able to watch you on your spiritual journey and spiritual expansion and say with 100% love and 100% celebration of who you are in each of those phases. How excited I am for this next phase of your life and how excited I am to continue. Continue to watch in awe and participate in this journey with you. So I love you, and I'm just. I'm so happy for you.

Saane Siale [04:45:58] I love you both. Thank you so much for being here with me. Yeah. Couldn't have done this interview without. Yeah. Without all of you, so.

John Dehlin [04:46:07] And, Bo, I just have to ask this, is the Mormon or the Mormon bishop part of you? Do you do the thoughts of, like, sadness to see Sanay decide that for her, the best thing for her is to leave. Does the Mormon bishop part of you have thoughts of Sadness?

Beau Oyler [04:46:27] I think 10 years ago, I could have had those thoughts of sadness. The bishop that I got to serve as a first counselor to, his name's Matt Lyon. He taught me one very, very important lesson. As he said, we love people where they are. And so I feel no sadness whatsoever and only just celebration and hope and excitement for what the next phase of life is. And the fact that Sunny just said to us she feels more mentally and spiritually secure and strong and happy in her life right now than ever before. Like, as her previous bishop, like, what more could I want? Right?

Saane Siale [04:47:07] Yeah, exactly. And I would hope that wherever my next chapter in life, whatever my journey looks like, that, whether that's me being in the church or out of the church, Christian, agnostic, atheist even, I don't know, I would just hope that people remember my humanity and that alone matters and is enough and always has been enough and will always be enough. And so I don't want people to think that, oh, well, she still believes in Christ. She's at least that much. At least, like, okay, so she'll be saved. I don't like that ideology because for me, the way I navigate life is how can I make space for everyone? And how can I make, you know, not only space, but space for celebration, space for voices to be heard. And so, again, I just hope that, you know, whatever that looks like for me and whatever that looks like for others people, I would hope that people would still respect my humanity and still appreciate that and still, yeah. Honor it with the worthiness that it deserves.

John Dehlin [04:48:18] Beautiful. Well, sane. Ciale, thank you so much for sharing your story with us on Mormon Stories podcast. We wish you all the best.

Saane Siale [04:48:27] Thank you. I'll need it.

John Dehlin [04:48:29] Yeah. You're going to pursue mental health.

Saane Siale [04:48:31] Yeah. So I am currently in My master's for social work at the U. And then I work full time as a teen program director. So I work for an after school program. I work with middle school and high school teens. I love working with youth because I see myself when I was their age in them. And so, yeah, really passionate about I. About the work that I do, especially with the climate today with gun violence in schools especially. That's a huge discussion that I have with my. My students constantly. And so that's why it propels me even more into mental health advocacy, into mental health work. I hope to one day Obviously gain my PhD in Clinical Psych and own my own therapy practice and hopefully address mental health awareness within the Polynesian community specifically, but also open up access and availability nationwide. And obviously I'm also passionate about policy work and so working on that. Right now I'm an organizer for Utah with all immigrants. Follow our Instagram page and yeah, lovely. Working with people who are DACA recipients. Nadia, Lily and Nori and Alondra. Shout out to all of them. I work with them with the immigration population within Utah, but also addressing immigration as, as a nation as well. And so that's the advocacy work that I'm continuing to do right now postgrad and entering into my graduate school work with my master's, which I will start in the fall. So, yeah, we'll see. We'll see where that takes me. But it's exciting. All exciting things.

John Dehlin [04:50:17] I love it. All right, thanks, Sonny.

Beau Oyler [04:50:20] And.

John Dehlin [04:50:20] And Black Menace's podcast, still going strong, Nate.

Nate Byrd [04:50:23] Still going strong. Check it out.

John Dehlin [04:50:25] How do we check that out?

Nate Byrd [04:50:26] Yeah, we do. We do interviews every week, so just check out interviews. You can find them anywhere. You find podcasts, Spotify music. No Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon prime, all of those. So check it out. Black Ministers Podcast.

John Dehlin [04:50:40] All right. And Bo, you'll still be my homie. You'll still be my friend, always.

Saane Siale [04:50:46] Maybe.

John Dehlin [04:50:46] Maybe someday we'll hear your Mormon story.

Beau Oyler [04:50:49] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:50:51] Maybe, Heather. Maybe not. All right, thanks, everybody. You guys take care. Thanks to everyone who tuned in today. This is really important stuff, so we hope it's been helpful. We love your feedback. You can email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com you can comment on these episodes if you feel like it. Feel free to subscribe to our YouTube channel, our Facebook page week, and we appreciate everyone who donates to support Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation to make all this possible. Take care, be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon. On another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.