Welcome and Introduction to Dallin Seely

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. It is January 31, 2023. I am writing solo today with no co host. And today we are going to be talking about what happens as a young, newly married Mormon with young kids when you and your spouse start having a faith crisis. We're also going to be talking about scrupulosity or religious ocd, obsessive compulsive dis and perfectionism. We're going to be talking about kind of a young Mormon couple that has kind of a feminist awakening. But we're not actually interviewing the couple this time. We're interviewing the husband and the father in the young Mormon marriage. And today we have with us in studio a face that may be familiar to some of you. His name is Dallin Seeley. Hey, Dallin. Welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast Studios.

Dallin Seely [00:01:02] Hey, John. Good to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] Yeah, yeah. For those who don't know, D has another job, kind of a day job. He and his wife run a YouTube channel called the Dashleys. Is that right?

Dallin Seely [00:01:13] Yep. Dashlies.

John Dehlin [00:01:14] And how do you describe kind of that content segment? It's like Mormon family, YouTubing or what is it?

Dallin Seely [00:01:21] Family lifestyle. I think it's kind of hard to describe. Yeah, I'd say family lifestyle, slash couples. Um, yeah, lifestyle content.

John Dehlin [00:01:30] Yeah. And I, I'm not much a connoisseur of YouTube, so, you know, but I have checked out several videos. Like your most recent one is like your son going to the dentist or something like that, right?

Dallin Seely [00:01:41] Oh, yeah, yeah. We, we do vlogs and then there's. With TikTok now we do a lot more short form content.

John Dehlin [00:01:47] And your, and your handle there is.

Dallin Seely [00:01:50] It's all the Dashleys everywhere.

John Dehlin [00:01:51] Okay, but, but today, as cool as that is to have you, and I know there's a lot of people that value your work, we're going to focus on the Mormon part. The Mormon story.

Dallin Seely [00:02:01] Yeah, it's one that I haven't, like, shared a lot about.

John Dehlin [00:02:04] So, on your channel, the Dashleys, have you guys even really talked about your Mormon journey at all?

Dallin Seely [00:02:09] No, not in a sit down, face to face, like heart to heart conversation like this. It's been a little bit here, a little bit there, throwing out that we've had some questions. There was one Instagram story where, like, as people started to get hints and stuff, we did a Q and A and a lot of people are asking if we're still Mormon. And I pretty much came out and said it's not working for us anymore, but respect everyone who still believes and kind of gave where I was at now. So the most that I've ever straightly come across and said no was in a single Instagram story, basically.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] So the majority of your content, let's just say on YouTube and Facebook, it has nothing to do with religion.

Dallin Seely [00:02:49] It's more a day to day family lifestyle.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] Well then we're extra honored that you would be willing to share your Mormon story here.

Dallin Seely [00:02:59] Yeah, happy to be here. Nervous and excited.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] Yeah. Well we'll try and make you comfortable.

Dallin Seely [00:03:04] Yeah, cool.

John Dehlin [00:03:06] So thanks to everyone who's joining us. If you're joining us on YouTube, it'd be awesome if you could subscribe to our YouTube channel and hit the like button. Same with Facebook if you can subscribe or like that's always really amazing. All right. So yeah, I mentioned the themes about scrupulosity, truth claims, faith crisis in early marriage, etc. Would you like to start maybe Dallin Seely, by just talking about your intentions of why you want to do a Mormon Stories episode. It's always sensitive for family members who are still believers to come well, to speak publicly about your faith crisis. But also coming on Mormon Stories for some can be seen as an act of aggression or hostility towards the church, even though we try and be really respectful. So I like to give my interviewees a chance to just kind of state their intentions.

Dallin Seely [00:03:55] Yeah, yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah, my intentions definitely aren't to, you know, come on and bash the church. It's really hard to be critical of religion without coming off as rude. But I definitely don't want to bash the church or anybody's beliefs. I still have active friends and family. My intentions are for just sharing my story and where I'm coming from. And I know that there's people out there like me and Ashley. I'm going to speak, be speaking for Ashley a lot. She's, she chickened out. She's said she sends her love. She says thanks for holding our hand during this whole past few years. She also wanted me to tell you that you're the first one of the first men she's ever heard validate women's concerns in the church and say straight out, yes, women are treated as second class citizens and she's the first time that she's ever felt really validated by a man. So she sends that and says sorry you chickened out. She didn't want to cry the whole time and didn't want to ruffle feathers with her family, but she wanted me to pass that along. So.

John Dehlin [00:04:51] So thank you.

Dallin Seely [00:04:52] Yeah, no, I just want to share my story for if anybody's out there, like me or Ashley, that they know that they're not alone and not crazy.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] Yeah. There are so many young Mormon couples. Well, either like recently returned or early returned missionaries or young Mormon couples or young Mormon singles post mission who are leaving the church. And they just. It's. It's super hard even in 2023 to navigate all that. So we really appreciate you being willing to share your story.

Dallin Seely [00:05:23] Yeah, I'll do my best.

John Dehlin [00:05:24] Yeah. All right. Well, Dallin, see, Lee, where does your Mormon story begin? Are you pioneer heritage, raised in Utah, or something a little bit different?

Mormon Childhood and Pioneer Ancestry

Dallin Seely [00:05:32] Yeah. Honestly, I don't know a lot about pioneer ancestry. I think there is some. I guess that makes me kind of a bad Mormon in that regard. But, yeah, I don't know a lot of stories, but I think there were. But yeah, I'm definitely a multi generational Mormon. And I grew up. Well, I lived in West Valley for a few years and moved to Colorado when I was three to a small town called Meeker. And my great grandparents there kind of like headed up the church for a long time. Church meetings were held in their house until the ward was finally built there. It's a small town of like 2,000 people, so I had a lot of family members to look up to and kind of introduced me to Mormon lifestyle. And definitely a very orthodox Mormon family growing up.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Where were you kind of in the birth order of your siblings, if you have siblings?

Dallin Seely [00:06:24] Yeah, two older brothers, one younger brother. All boys.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] So third. Third of four boys. And then what about your parents? Working slash stay at home situation?

Dallin Seely [00:06:37] My dad worked and my mom outside the home. Outside the home? Yeah. Yeah. So my, my dad worked selling insurance and a few different jobs. And my mom was. Cut hair and also stayed at home a lot until my dad passed away when I was 8. That was a big. That was probably the first major, you know, life event of mine when my dad passed away on my eighth birthday.

John Dehlin [00:07:06] Do you have Mormon memories before your dad? And I'm so sorry about that.

Dallin Seely [00:07:10] Yeah, we'll get to that more. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:11] So do you have Mormon memories before your dad passing away? Just like all the family prayer, family home evening kind of stuff.

Dallin Seely [00:07:18] Oh, yeah. Yep. Going to church. I have this photo. I have this memory of me not wanting to put on my tie for this photo. Sunday morning photo. But like, Dallin, get in here, put on your tie. We're going to take a photo. And that photo. I still have it of just me with a really grumpy face there, but we're all standing there in a white shirts and ties before we go to church on Sunday. My dad was always like in the high council or speaking somewhere, traveling long drives to different small towns in Colorado for, you know, state conference and always had family prayer, reading scriptures, Christmas, reading, you know, Luke from the Bible and Yeah, some special memories. A lot of good family memories.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] Do you have memories of one on one with your dad or fun times with your dad?

Dallin Seely [00:08:08] Fun story. I've had this VHS forever with my name on it and I finally took it to a place in St. George to get it transferred over to a USB because I don't have a VHS player and all it was was a three minute clip of my dad filming me riding my bike. It was kind of special. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:28] So having a video like that kind of aids in your memory.

Dallin Seely [00:08:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a special thing for me.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:08:35] Besides that, one on one memories with my dad were me going over to his office after school and playing on his super old big white box Mac computer while he's working on paperwork or something. And one of my favorite things to do was to like open up a Word document and type a bunch of letters and print it out and he would read it to me and as if it were, he would just, he would just enunciate all these random letters. And I just thought it was the funniest thing, like, you know, like reading all this gibberish.

John Dehlin [00:09:06] I love that you'd write gibberish.

Dallin Seely [00:09:08] I would write because I didn't know how to type. I was like five or six.

John Dehlin [00:09:11] That's fun.

Dallin Seely [00:09:11] Yeah. So, yeah, a few fun memories.

Father's Death and Its Impact on the Family

John Dehlin [00:09:14] Okay. Is there anything you want, any other stories you want to tell before we talk about your dad passing away?

Dallin Seely [00:09:20] Oh, man. Just that we were just a solid orthodox family. My parents raised me in the Mormon way, like all good orthodox Mormon parents do.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:09:32] And no, nothing, Nothing really up to you. My, my dad's death's probably a big part of my story.

John Dehlin [00:09:40] Okay, maybe let's, let's go there.

Dallin Seely [00:09:43] Yeah. So one Sunday morning we were, we're like, we're like, where's dad? Why isn't he coming to church with us? And my mom said that he was at the hospital and we're going to go see him after church. I was seven. I guess I just turned seven or a little after I turned seven. And so we went over to the hospital after church thinking it was some small deal like, hey, dad, what's going on. And he'd been having some stomach issues, stomach pains. And of course, none of us realized the gravity of the situation. He's getting his stomach checked out, some more tests, and. And eventually, not too much later, he was diagnosed with stomach cancer. Apparently it had progressed for a long time, and he put it off thinking it wasn't major, but it turns out it was, and it progressed pretty rapidly. He did chemo. I have memories of me and my brother shaving my dad's hair off in our kitchen. And it was like a happy, sad moment. Shaving, like, trying to laugh about it, but also just kind of like, what's going on? You know? The small town of Meeker rallied around us and had auctions for us. They raised a lot of money. We used some of that to go on the, like, one big family trip to Disneyland. And. Yeah, that was like our. Our last big thing as a family to go to Disneyland, go to the beach and.

John Dehlin [00:11:22] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:11:22] Before he died on June 20, my eighth birthday. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:27] He died on the day of your birthday?

Dallin Seely [00:11:29] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:11:30] Oh, wow.

Dallin Seely [00:11:30] Yeah. Yeah. I remember, like. Well, we went to the hospital a few. Feud it like the day before or something and said goodbye. And then my mom wanted me to, like, open my presents that morning, and then they told me. Yeah, sorry. Didn't think I would get emotional this fast.

John Dehlin [00:11:51] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:11:52] But, yeah, yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [00:11:55] That's hard stuff.

Dallin Seely [00:11:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:58] Was it ever a topic to have him try and baptize you before he passed? Was that even on the table at all?

Dallin Seely [00:12:05] I. I don't remember. I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] Okay.

Dallin Seely [00:12:08] No, I don't think so. I remember him just telling me to be a good boy. The church is true.

John Dehlin [00:12:13] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:12:14] Keep going to church. Don't watch PG 13 movies. I remember. And. Yeah, stuff like that. But I.

John Dehlin [00:12:23] He said, don't watch PG 13 movies.

Dallin Seely [00:12:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:26] Wow.

Dallin Seely [00:12:27] Yeah. That was one of the last things he told me. Yeah. That brought a lot of guilt later on in my life, but I'm over that now. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:37] Were there attempts to, like, get priesthood blessings or do a lot of prayer to save.

Dallin Seely [00:12:43] He had all sorts of priesthood blessings and blessings of healing and stay here to raise your boys and stuff like that. And then eventually he had a blessing to release the ghost or whatever they call it.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] Who do you know who is giving these blessings?

Dallin Seely [00:13:00] Our bishop. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] Do you remember any of that registering in terms of questions or things you wondered about or your relationship with God at the time?

Dallin Seely [00:13:15] We talked about, you know, wanting to. I remember. I don't know how much of this Was straight told to me slash what I just absorbed from church every Sunday and teachings. But I just remember wanting to be worthy to go back and live with my dad someday maybe. Oh, I remember interpreting I'm a child of God and he has sent me here, teach me all that I must do to live with him someday. I would apply that to my earthly dad as well as my heavenly father. So that was probably one of my first internalizing messages of I gotta do something specific in order to go back and live with my dad. There's some things that I could do wrong to not go back and live with my dad. It's to kind of stress me out a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:13:59] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:14:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:00] It kind of ups the stakes.

Dallin Seely [00:14:01] Yeah. Especially after I got baptized and all the, you know, the messaging of you're accountable for your sins now and stuff like that. Yeah. Really kind of racked my brain wanting to stay worthy to go back and see my dad again.

John Dehlin [00:14:18] I mean, sometimes scrupulosity or religious OCD is just kind of biological, but sometimes you can kind of maybe identify some life experiences that might start to trigger that religious scrupulosity or perfectionism. Because if you're a kid thinking I gotta stay righteous, not disobey my dad's exhortations and live righteously so I can be with my dad again someday, that, yeah, that could be a formula for scrupulosity or religious perfectionism.

Dallin Seely [00:14:50] Yeah, definitely. My baptism and his funeral were on the same day. It was. Yeah. I didn't really know what to think of it, but my grandpa baptized me. A lot of my family swore they saw my dad baptizing me. I didn't, I saw my grandpa. But a lot of people attending there said they swore they, they saw my dad baptizing me. That was interesting. I didn't know what to make of it, honestly.

John Dehlin [00:15:16] I guess as a kid, you, you, if it's your grandpa or your mom, you would tend to want to believe that.

Dallin Seely [00:15:24] Yeah, I. I just didn't. I didn't know what to make of it. But yeah, it was a special moment for a lot of people there.

John Dehlin [00:15:31] Yeah. Wow. So baptism and funeral, Dad's funeral, same day. That's. That's intense. That's a lot for an eight year old.

Dallin Seely [00:15:41] It's a lot for an eight year old.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:15:43] Yeah, it was a lot for our whole family. We didn't process it really well, at least I didn't talking with others. It doesn't seem like we process. We didn't know how to grieve. We basically said, you know, we're gonna see him again someday. Jesus makes everything better. Pray, live righteously, and we'll be a forever family someday. And yeah, you know, good old fashioned. This sounds crass or rude, but I. This is what I call it now. Slapping a Jesus band aid on it, you know.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] And what do you mean by that?

Dallin Seely [00:16:17] Just like the blanket statement, Jesus will fix everything. Don't worry about it. Band aid, you know, versus what I've learned now and is to like how to process grief and be okay with emotions, good or bad. Just. They're all just emotions type thing. Sit with not. Not push away negative emotions and try to only be positive and happy about everything. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, there's definitely a lot of talk. I don't know if toxic positivity is the right word, but just a culture of staying positive, staying happy, and Jesus will make everything better.

John Dehlin [00:16:57] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:16:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] I guess that prevents you from processing and it's just kind of suppressing your emotions that can then come out in unhealthy ways later. Maybe.

Dallin Seely [00:17:07] Yeah. Yeah. And I. There's no one specifically to blame. Like, I don't blame my mom at all. My mom's amazing. I love my, My. So proud my family to be part of my family and everybody growing up. I think we all did the best we could with the understanding we had and. And that was the Mormon worldview.

John Dehlin [00:17:24] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:17:24] Yeah.

Single Mother Raising Four Boys in the Church

John Dehlin [00:17:26] All right, so how did that leave your family and your faith once your dad passed away?

Dallin Seely [00:17:34] Just re. Gave us like, we all determined to, you know, life went on and we stayed active, stayed strong. My mom opened a hair salon and just like stepped up the. Just did what it took to raise four boys on her own and just. Yeah, my mom's one of my heroes. She opened a hair salon in meager Colorado, called Backstage, got some friends and she did. She. That was her, like, what she graduated in. She was a hairstylist and she. She did that. Honestly, I don't remember if she did that while my dad was still alive or not. I think she did. I just don't remember. But yeah, she definitely stepped up full time doing that after he did die, and that was how we earned a living.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] And a single mom raised. Single Mormon mom raising four boys on the income of a hairstylist. That's amazing.

Dallin Seely [00:18:27] Yeah, we somehow always had everything that we needed.

John Dehlin [00:18:30] So she didn't remarry quickly?

Dallin Seely [00:18:32] No.

John Dehlin [00:18:32] Oh, no. Okay.

Dallin Seely [00:18:34] She didn't remarry for 20 years.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] Oh, wow. Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:18:39] So she actually just got married two years ago.

John Dehlin [00:18:40] Oh. So she stayed single for 20 years.

Dallin Seely [00:18:44] 22 years.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] Two years. Wow.

Dallin Seely [00:18:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] Okay.

Dallin Seely [00:18:47] If I'm doing my math. Right.

John Dehlin [00:18:48] Okay.

Dallin Seely [00:18:49] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:18:50] So you grew up. Well, that. I, I hate to frame it this way, but in the Mormon context, what. What that family is called is a. Is a family without the priesthood. Right. At least until the, you know, without a priesthood leader in the home. Yeah, until one of the boys gets the priesthood. But even then, it's just the ironic. So, I mean, there's a. There's a way Mormons describe this. I could already tell that evokes some emotion in you.

Dallin Seely [00:19:19] No, yeah, we. My mom leaned on priesthood leaders to come and give us blessings until brother, you know, received the Melchizedek priesthood. He could give us a priesthood blessing before school or if we were sick, but. Yeah. Relied on home teachers and our family members to, yeah. Come give blessings when we needed.

John Dehlin [00:19:40] How was that for you? Like, I remember when my parents got divorced, home teachers took on kind of a special. Because I stayed with my mom for several years, home teachers kind of took on a special role because, number one, if dad was gone and there was some type of need, like a hurricane came and blew the side of side of our house off, you know, we could call the home teacher, mom could call the home teacher to get help, or there's like a fathers and sons outing and my dad couldn't go, a home teacher would say, hey, I'll take you. You know, that kind of like home, male home teacher filling in the role of. Of dad not being there. When was there any of that for you?

Dallin Seely [00:20:22] I'm trying to remember my bishop. I don't. He was either a bishop or a home teacher at the time. I remember him coming over, helping me with a school project. I thought it was so cool how he knew how to, like, solder these pieces to put together a little transistor radio. I remember him taking me to a father and son camp out. I remember, like my uncles on my mom's side would rally around during family reunions and were always there for me. I could look up to them. But, yeah, so I have a few memories like that.

John Dehlin [00:20:53] I mean, I. I wonder if you and. Or your mom or siblings would say the church was very useful or helpful or supportive.

Dallin Seely [00:21:03] Absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:05] Is that how you'd frame it? That the church was there for you in a positive way?

Dallin Seely [00:21:08] Definitely there for us in a positive way. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:10] That's good. That's okay. We can highlight that on Mormon stories.

Dallin Seely [00:21:12] Totally. Yeah. And even more so when we moved to Layton, Utah, when I was 13. That was a kind of a real eye opener for us. For me at least. My mom grew up over here, so she knew what it was like to live in headquarters. But yeah, moving over here instantly. When we move into our new house, we have this giant super involved ward. All of our neighbors are Mormon. I am instantly thrown into a solid group of friends. Home teachers, it work. Home teacher, works at like overseeing temple construction. Our bishop works at church headquarters. Like all the. For better or for worse, we can talk, we'll talk more about that. But thrown into. Yeah, just, just so much support. I remember getting, you know, a couple hundred dollars in envelope with no name on it for Christmas, I'm assuming from ward members. Yeah, it really rallied around us when we moved over there and it was so awesome in a lot of ways.

Growing Up in the Ward and Bishop Relationships

John Dehlin [00:22:14] Before we talk about that bishop, he's, he's on your outline as a important part of your life and maybe good and bad ways. But how was, how did the Mormon manifestations, the Mormon practices in your home change when it was just your mom raising four boys with a full time job? Did she still try and do all the Mormon things?

Dallin Seely [00:22:37] We read scriptures most Sundays. It was just on Sunday. We didn't do it daily. We stood, we said daily prayers. We would always kneel around my mom's bed. And she was always really good at praying for us by name. Something I always remember like how grateful she is for like each. She would say something about each of us. So yeah, that's a special memory of mine. And yeah, church every Sunday got really involved. My ward was like so Boy Scout pro Boy Scout. Like it was. If you didn't have an eagle by the time you're 18, it's like something was wrong with you. Our scout master was like ex military. It was intense. Yeah. So I definitely got involved in Boy Scouts. I did not get my Eagle though. And my excuse is that I moved in later than everybody else. I guess I. And my mom was not super like she was kind of just let me do what, what I wanted with her. She wasn't super gung ho. You got to get your Eagle Scout. So yeah, I was like a star, which is one away from life, which is one away from eagle. So I'm basically an Eagle Scout. Yeah. But no, I, I have a few memories of yeah. Doing the good Mormon things around the house. I avoid radar movies and, or even PG13 movies for a long time. Stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:23:56] I even with, even when I was still in the church, married with, you know, Margi in the home, I looked at the church as an important way to help me raise my kids, to provide support for raising kids. I. I can imagine with your mom, it was even more important for her to raise you all in the church to get support that she maybe felt like she couldn't totally give, including in her mind, quote, male role models.

Dallin Seely [00:24:24] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:24:25] Is that true?

Dallin Seely [00:24:26] Yeah. Yeah. She leaned on her brothers in law. She has all sisters. So lean on brothers in law. My uncles and other priests, they were here in Utah. Yeah, most. Most of them.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] Okay.

Dallin Seely [00:24:36] And my friends, dads in my ward and Layton and my priesthood leaders. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:43] Yeah. So, I mean, I love it on Mormon stories when we highlight the good and the bad. And it just sounds like given a tough situation like yours, where your dad died when he was young and you all were young, it sounds like you would give the Mormon church really good grades for the positive influence it had on you and your family growing up. Is that fair to say?

Dallin Seely [00:25:04] There's. There's pros and cons. There's like the day to day, how helpful it is, the community rallying around, and then there's the cons of when you're in your head, alone at night in your bed, pondering your worthiness, pondering where your dad is, pondering if you're going to return to live with him, pondering if you're doing enough, that type of thing. At least this was that way for me. And that's where I'm afraid Mormonism can do a lot of damage that is never brought to light. Like Henry David Thoreau saying, most men live lives of quiet desperation. I would venture to say most Mormons live lives of quiet desperation to a certain degree, pondering their worthiness, pondering if they're doing enough, pondering, you know? Yeah, all that stuff. So that was there too. Just, I guess I'm highlighting a lot of positive things right now.

John Dehlin [00:25:53] No, it's good. Well, let's. Let's jump into the dark side. So there's your scrupulosity and then there's your very strict bishop.

Shame, Masturbation, and Scrupulosity

Dallin Seely [00:25:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] Where do you want to begin? Like, at what age did things start to get rough for you? Would you say?

Dallin Seely [00:26:05] Oh, man, I remember walking with my friend one night and he had just had his 14th birthday and he turns to me and he's like, dude, I just had my bishop's interview.

John Dehlin [00:26:14] Right.

Dallin Seely [00:26:15] Did he ask you about masturbation? Because I had mine. I just turned 14 before him. Or I guess that's when our bishop starts asking about that stuff. And I was like, yeah. And he's like, dude, that's kind of weird. And yeah, we didn't get too into it, but it's man, very, very strict that bishop. And as I go on as a teenager and involved in follies of youth, as Joe Smith would put it, and find myself in the bishop's office a little more often, he made me feel pretty, pretty bad. He had me read Miracle of Forgiveness, of course. And for, you know, a teenage boy, that'll, that'll mess with your brain a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:27:01] Do you, do you remember. Would you even be able to recount the story of talking about masturbation with your bishop? Like how it came up.

Dallin Seely [00:27:09] He prefaced it with now this.

John Dehlin [00:27:11] So you're, you're how old?

Dallin Seely [00:27:14] I'm trying to remember if you remember. I think 14 or 15.

John Dehlin [00:27:17] Okay, so you're 14 or 15, your dad's passed away, you're alone with this bishop in his office.

Dallin Seely [00:27:23] Yeah. And he's like, now this is a question that we need to ask regarding worthiness, law of chastity, types preface. And he's. Prophets of counsel do not rouse things in your own body type thing. And do you do that? And I'm like, yeah. And so he, Some people don't even

John Dehlin [00:27:44] know what masturbation is when they get that question.

Dallin Seely [00:27:46] I didn't, I mean I, I didn't know specifics or do. But I guess as he explained it to me, I'm like, yeah, I guess, but. And so I'm like, have to stop taking the sacrament, blah, blah, blah.

John Dehlin [00:27:58] So, okay, explain to our never Mormon listeners. Okay. What your role was in the priesthood and why it was probably more complex than not just being able to take the sacrament. Right. Because you would have been a pre. Teacher at that point.

Dallin Seely [00:28:14] Yeah. So let's just, let's talk about it as. I'm a priest. So I'm like 16, 17, approaching 18, getting ready for mission at 19. Yeah, there's that and a few other things with girls or whatever. And uh, so I can't.

John Dehlin [00:28:31] So tell, tell our non Mormons what the role of deacons, teachers and priests are and what your role would have been at the time. So. Because no one, you know, a lot of our listeners, half over half our listeners have never been Mormon.

Dallin Seely [00:28:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:45] And this is something we haven't. We've talked a lot about women having these conversations, but it's a whole different ball game with young men given the visibility of their roles with, with the sacrament. Do you, can you explain that or do you want me to?

Dallin Seely [00:28:57] No, I can. So Deacons their roles past sacrament, if you're worthy.

John Dehlin [00:29:00] And that's age.

Dallin Seely [00:29:01] Age 12 and 13. Okay. Teachers.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] So they're the ones walking around soccer media.

Dallin Seely [00:29:06] Yeah. Walking around passing the. The. The bread and the water to everybody in the congregation.

John Dehlin [00:29:10] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:29:10] In the trays.

John Dehlin [00:29:11] Yeah. And that's every week, right?

Dallin Seely [00:29:13] Every week.

John Dehlin [00:29:13] Y. So if you don't. If all of a sudden you're not

Dallin Seely [00:29:16] passing, then you show up late or have to go to the bathroom.

John Dehlin [00:29:21] Because otherwise.

Dallin Seely [00:29:22] Because otherwise everybody's like, oh, snap. D's not worthy.

John Dehlin [00:29:25] Right. Yeah. What's he been doing? Is he looking at porn? It's a shaming thing.

Dallin Seely [00:29:30] It's a shame.

John Dehlin [00:29:31] I'm being very explicit just because there are people I want, you know, it's good for there to be a record, but also we want to educate people that don't even understand this stuff.

Dallin Seely [00:29:39] Yeah. Teachers.

John Dehlin [00:29:41] 14, 15.

Dallin Seely [00:29:42] 14 and 15 year old. They are. They're not blessing it. Right.

John Dehlin [00:29:47] They prepare it.

Dallin Seely [00:29:48] They prepare it.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] So they go in the back, get the bread, fill the water cup.

Dallin Seely [00:29:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:54] Right.

Dallin Seely [00:29:54] Yeah. And then priests bless it.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] And that's a very visible theme because one blesses the water, one blesses the bread and they got the microphone and they're. The whole congregation's bowing their heads and they're the voice of the prayer.

Dallin Seely [00:30:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:09] To the whole congregation.

Dallin Seely [00:30:10] Yeah. But there's like, There was like 18 teachers in my ward or priests in my ward, so. And only four are up there. So it's not a big deal if you're not up there one week, you know, so that wasn't as bad if I wasn't worthy, you know, but not as shaming. But still, you can't take the sacrament if you're sitting in the congregation. And everyone wanted my mom to not see me take the sacrament, so I magically, always, in the last verse of the sacrament, him. I always had to pee. So I would just leave and she'd be. Sometimes she would ask me, did you get the sacrament out there? And I would just say, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] Oh, so you would hide it from your mom.

Dallin Seely [00:30:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:47] And from the people around you by ducking out.

Dallin Seely [00:30:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] So it's a very shaming thing.

Dallin Seely [00:30:53] I was very ashamed. Yeah. Especially after reading what I read. Miracle forgiveness, things like Jesus expects superman in this life. You can achieve perfection in this life. Like sin is sexual. Sin is next to murder. What other things?

John Dehlin [00:31:09] It makes you gay. Masturbation makes you.

Dallin Seely [00:31:10] It might make me gay.

John Dehlin [00:31:11] According to miracle forgiveness. Again, for our viewers and listeners, one of our earlier prophets in the Mormon Church was Spencer W. Kimball, and he published this book, the Miracle Forgiveness, probably in the 60s or 70s. And for decades and decades it was the book to read so that you don't sin and then in case you do sin. And it was just a horrific purity culture, you know, super unhealthy book that associated masturbation with homosexuality, that caused homosexual. That called homosexuality a perversion and that. Yeah. That amped up the stakes of sexuality, premarital sexuality, so high that it did what to people.

Dallin Seely [00:31:57] Yeah. Super ashamed, super worried in the. You know, when I'm alone, just the. When I'm not hanging out with friends on the day to day, shooting the breeze with friends, when I'm laying there at night or just by myself or, you know, whatever, walking from class to class by myself. The thoughts that would creep into your head about your literal worth as a human. Like if Mormonism didn't directly cause that for whatever genetic reasons I have ocd, it definitely exacerbated those things.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:32:25] Those. Those feelings of worthlessness and fear of what happens when you die.

The Miracle of Forgiveness and Its Harm

John Dehlin [00:32:31] Yeah. And what's particularly heinous about this book is that it was written by a Mormon prophet, seer and revelator. And Mormons are taught that their prophets, seers and revelators speak to God and Jesus. So you would read this book just like, oh, wow, he's really strict, or, oh, wow, that's his opinion. You would read this book, Miracle Forgiveness, it'd be assigned to you by your bishop or your parents, and you would read it believing it was truth. And fast forward 40, 50 years, the Mormon Church has quietly stopped printing the book and now has stopped selling it because they know how awful it is in terms of how much damage it's done. But they never, like, did a mea culpa and said, hey, for those of you who lived under the psychological oppression of that book for 50 years, we apologize. They just quietly stopped selling it with no apology. And that book has caused probably thousands, if not tens of thousands of deaths by suicide. And that's not even mentioning all the depression and anxiety and guilt and shame that. Am I overstating it in your life?

Dallin Seely [00:33:42] Not at all. Nope.

John Dehlin [00:33:44] Okay.

Dallin Seely [00:33:45] Yeah. No, if I could go back, I've. I've since thrown my. I wish I didn't throw my high school journal away. It's just something I've. I've chucked. For whatever reason, I took a lot of notes in there about what's going on in my head. I wish I could go back and read it now.

John Dehlin [00:33:59] What are some things you might have

Dallin Seely [00:34:00] written just like, I need to do better, I need to be better type stuff. If I were to boil it down.

John Dehlin [00:34:08] And, and, and I'm always split on that because on the one hand, maybe there's some good about something like a church or a parent encouraging us to improve.

Dallin Seely [00:34:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:20] But there, maybe there's a dark side too. Was there a dark side?

Dallin Seely [00:34:23] Like, improve upon what? Like actual learning life lessons and what you find healthy for you, what you don't find healthy for you, or improve upon what is defined by your specific religion as a sin, we're going to keep you out of heaven when you die. Like, there's a lot of things that people worry about that they might not actually need to be worrying about. And it was that case for me. I remember praying that often, actually, God help me to stop, or Heavenly Father, help me to stop worrying about things that I don't need to worry about and just focus on things that matter most. I remember I would say that prayer all the time.

John Dehlin [00:34:52] Yeah. Meaning what? Meaning help me to what? Not have what thoughts.

Dallin Seely [00:34:58] Not have bad thoughts. Yeah. Not have inappropriate thoughts. Just, you know, stay on the path.

John Dehlin [00:35:03] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:35:03] Yeah. Because I knew. I see my mission coming up. I see, you know, obviously always thinking about returning to heaven to see my dad again. That's. There's the, that's just a constant and, you know, wanting to get to the point where I can take the sacrament again and not. And feel like a worthy person. Although that never would actually happen. But, yeah, I just wanted to at least start taking the sacrament again. Um, but then something weird happened where my bishop, he was done and we switched to a new bishop and I was, I was about to like, wrap things up and be declared worthy again or whatever by, by the, you know, the. Are we moving too fast?

John Dehlin [00:35:43] How long was the probation in your mind?

Dallin Seely [00:35:46] A few months.

John Dehlin [00:35:47] Okay. That's a lot.

Dallin Seely [00:35:48] I know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:50] For doing stuff that every, probably every other kid in that congregation. Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:35:54] Nothing's like super serious and Mormon in Mormon eyes, but yeah, apparently serious enough for him. And he was very old school orthodox, works the church headquarters type dude. Yeah, his. Yeah, yeah. And other friends that I've talked to have had same experiences. So, yeah, he gets released and the new bishop comes in. Takes a few months for me for him to organize his stuff and meet with me. I finally like bust out of Sunday school one Sunday, go over to his office, see these areas, like, can I sit down and talk with you? Like, it's been driving me crazy daily. And I sit down and he's like, sure, come in, down. Come on in. And I tell him where I'm at. And he said he's looked at some notes or whatever. I don't know how the handoff process goes. And so when I tell him everything, he's like, dallin, don't worry about that stuff. You're just a teenager. You're good. And I just. I sat there kind of dumbfounded.

John Dehlin [00:36:51] Why?

Dallin Seely [00:36:52] Like, I've been stressing myself out for so long about worthiness and. And these things and feeling like worthless. And this guy. Yeah, because of the previous guy. And from what I've read and, you know, miracle forgiveness and strength of youth and all this stuff, and. And here you are. This is a. This is a dad of boys and girls, and he's a really great guy, and he's telling me to just do my best and not worry about it. I'm good to go. And I'm like, you're a mouthpiece of the Lord too. You're my representative of Jesus, too, just like the last guy. The concept of. The concept of, you know, agency coming into play with revelation, blah, blah, blah, wasn't something I had thought about. Also, the concept of we. We don't give as much away to past prophets as we do to current prophets. You know, with Spencer W. Kibble, miracle forgiveness, that was something that didn't make any sense to me, which shouldn't make sense to anybody if. If it's an actual thing that God gives actual revelation to humans to teach, you know, so. But anyways, so there I was, pretty confused, slash relieved at the same time. And I'm like, so we're good? And he's like, yeah, yeah, come talk to me anytime. And I. And he excused me, and I was that. And I'm like, so my worthiness has just been up to definition by other people. And this one says, I'm good to go.

John Dehlin [00:38:27] Did that make you feel like you had a license to masturbate?

Dallin Seely [00:38:30] No. No. You know, I knew that it was. It was against rules, but it just. It definitely helped me not feel so ashamed about it.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] Yeah. And you may not know the answer to this, but what I found is when at least men feel less ashamed about something like masturbation, they actually end up doing it sometimes less than they did when they felt ashamed. Do you even remember whether that was the case for you?

Dallin Seely [00:39:05] It probably was in process. And I didn't have the language to an understanding of mental health and shame, but I think that I would, if I were to look back, I would

John Dehlin [00:39:16] Say that was probably true because psychologically speaking, the worst thing you can do if you don't want to have a thought is to try not to have the thought.

Dallin Seely [00:39:24] Yeah, yeah. That what you resist, persists.

John Dehlin [00:39:27] Yeah. That what you fight, you strengthen when it comes to the. The brain. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

Dallin Seely [00:39:34] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:39:35] Okay, so where did things go from there with the chill Bishop?

Dallin Seely [00:39:39] Yeah. So next it was just all me preparing for my mission.

John Dehlin [00:39:43] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:39:44] Yeah. Our ward had the reputation of always having the most missionaries out of every ward in our stake. Everybody knew. And so I had seen Layton's like

John Dehlin [00:39:54] 30 minutes north of Salt Lake. Right. It's kind of an intense Mormon area. It's not quite Provo, it's not quite Alpine, Lehigh, but I hear Mormon wise, it can be pretty intense.

Dallin Seely [00:40:06] Yeah, I don't. I don't have the context to compare it to, but yeah, I'd say it was okay. Yeah. I was one of the older kids in my group, so I had seen the previous, you know, the great above me, them start to leave on missions. I had seen some of them return. I had heard the whispers around our congregation, like, oh, snap, so and so is back early. He must have had sex with his girlfriend or wonder why he couldn't cut it. Those types of whisperings. And it stressed me out a lot, like, I don't want to be the one that's. That's worthy or unworthy and has to come back early. And of course, even though I would, this is where scrupulosity would kick in. Because even though my bishop told me I'm worthy, not worry about it, I'd confess everything. I would still have these thoughts. What if that bishop's wrong? What if I didn't confess everything? Actually, what if there's this thing that I needed to go into more detail about and these thoughts started to creep in and I would think they're from the spirit because I've been reading my scriptures, I've been doing everything right. I was told that, you know, these thoughts would be. The spirit will tell you. I had done so much studying on how to tell if you're worthy or not. I basically boiled it down to like, well, DNC says Jesus isn't going to remember these anymore. So I think I'm good if I've repented, but if I do it again, then everything comes back. I think that is from miracle of forgiveness. If you sin again, then all your previous sins come back too, or something, however the heck that works. But. So this is this mind game that's going on in Dallin's head a lot of times throughout the day. So I would sometimes go back in and confess more, blah, blah, blah. And he's. And I would just get reassurance every time from priesthood leaders that you're good, you know, stop stressing about it. But I was convinced that the spirit was telling me that there was more. I wasn't worthy, I wasn't doing enough yet. There's a lot of parameters to judge yourself by in Mormonism.

Preparing and Leaving for a Mission

John Dehlin [00:42:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is a form of. Of. This is a mental illness. I think we've covered it many times on Mormon stories, but it's called scrupulosity. There's different forms of ocd, whether it's cleanliness, OCD with hands washing, whether it's safety, OCD with like, checking lights or the gas fireplace or locking doors. There's hoarding. But there's a form of religious obsessive compulsive disorder where you're ruminating a lot, trying to be hyper religious, hyper confessing, hyper praying, hyper going to the temple. Just. Your religion becomes compulsive.

Dallin Seely [00:42:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:49] In a way that's not edifying. It's terrorizing sometimes. Yeah. Is that how you were or.

Dallin Seely [00:42:56] Definitely.

John Dehlin [00:42:57] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:42:57] And I had no idea that that was a thing.

John Dehlin [00:43:00] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:43:00] I would have some friends that were just so chill about stuff. They mess up and. Yeah. They're just like, oh, well, try and do better, huh? I was so. I would get so up in my head about little things.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:43:13] Yeah, man. I guess EFY was a big part of my story. I'd love going FY with my friends and especially as I approached my mission, tell our listeners what EFY was, especially for youth. It's a church youth program. Well, BYU youth program that the church is kind of, I guess, involved with indirectly or pretty much directly.

John Dehlin [00:43:33] It's over the summers, right.

Dallin Seely [00:43:34] Over the summer, for a week long. Yeah. Love doing EFY songs.

John Dehlin [00:43:38] Charismatic, funny.

Dallin Seely [00:43:39] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:40] Speakers.

Dallin Seely [00:43:40] All the dancing, all the songs. Making friends. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:44] Meeting. Meeting Mormon kids from all over.

Dallin Seely [00:43:47] Mormon girls outside of your school and ward. That was really fun for me. My last year, I went with my best friend and we went down to Cedar City, and that was like the. The best year of EFY for me ever. I met what became a really good friend and. And, yeah, she. She was a girl, and I really thought I was going to marry her. When I got back from my mission, I became friends with her family, and she, like, super motivational for me, going on a mission and all this. All this, you know, every messaging for the last year. And in that I'm receiving is that I gotta go on a mission and preparing for that and gearing up to go. I graduated high school with garments on.

John Dehlin [00:44:31] What?

Dallin Seely [00:44:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:32] I've never heard of that.

Dallin Seely [00:44:33] I was, I turned 19 like 20 days after I graduated high school. So I left on my mission like two months after I graduated. I was a little older.

John Dehlin [00:44:44] I'm trying to remember was that before or after Thomas S. Monson's age changed?

Dallin Seely [00:44:48] Before. Yeah. Or. Yeah. So I was, I hadn't turned 19 quite yet, but they still let me go through the temple in preparation for my mission because I had my call.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] Okay.

Dallin Seely [00:44:59] Oh yeah. I remember getting my mission call. Go. I was like so expectant to go to Korea because my dad had gone to Korea, My brother went to Korea, my older brother, my oldest brother didn't serve mission. My, My next older brother went to Korea. So I'm like, like, oh man, I wonder if I'm going to go to Korea. And I got my mission call and it was to Columbus, Ohio.

John Dehlin [00:45:20] Oh.

Dallin Seely [00:45:21] And I was like, oh, cool. Where is that?

John Dehlin [00:45:25] Is that a Book of Mormon reference? Book of Mormon. Musical reference.

Dallin Seely [00:45:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:29] Were you bummed out? Because obviously there's like, there's a flex factor in Mormonism to doing a foreign language kind of speaking mission.

Dallin Seely [00:45:39] I was a little bummed. I guess I was just like, okay, cool, this is what the Lord wants. And then, but then the next line says, you will. You will serve laboring. You will serve in Spanish speaking. So I was like, oh. And everybody in the room's like, oh, okay. And so I was like, oh, that's kind of cool. I was like, there's a lot of Spanish people, Spanish speaking people in Ohio. I had no idea. Obviously. Yeah, they're Spanish speaking people everywhere. But yeah, so that was, that was cool. I got my mission call near like right before I graduated.

John Dehlin [00:46:17] And did you, like, did you feel worthy? Was that no longer an issue? What?

Dallin Seely [00:46:22] No.

John Dehlin [00:46:23] You felt unworthy?

Dallin Seely [00:46:24] Yeah. I would like there of once you talk to your bishop a lot, then he recommends you to the stake president. You want to stake president meetings. He makes you rehash everything that you ever told your bishop to double check that you actually are worthy and your bishop wasn't receiving, I don't know, false revelation, whatever. He wanted to double check that I'm worthy. And so all this stuff and I start wondering if I should confess more to him. So after I tell him everything that I thought I'd repented for already with my bishop, he's like, I'm gonna have to think about this before I submit my paper. So I'm like, oh, great. So I'm sitting in limbo for a while and just, you know, my day to day with my friends or whatever. And then I get called back in and he's like, I think I'm gonna submit your papers. And I'm like feeling so, like crying, so happy because this man is another man declaring my worth as a human being. That's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:47:12] So just to slow down on that for a second, like, similar to the probation of not being able to take the sacrament or bless or pass the sacrament. You know, if, if you've told your mom and if you told your siblings and if you've told your ward members and extended family that you're putting in your papers and. And then the bishop decides that because you confess this or that or the stake president that you either can't go or that they're going to delay your ability to go for six to 12 months.

Dallin Seely [00:47:44] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:47:45] That's similar. And maybe even more shaming, right?

Dallin Seely [00:47:49] Yeah. Yeah. For real. If I remember correctly, I think my stake president did wait more than a week. It was like two months. I remember my mom asking why hasn't he put it in yet? And I. What did I say? I was like just working with him on getting ready or something. And my mom just kind of was like, okay. She didn't ask too many details. And yeah, my mom told me that she just trusted me to make my own choices and she was never super. Never felt the need to be looking over my shoulder too much.

John Dehlin [00:48:21] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:48:22] So.

John Dehlin [00:48:22] But there's a problem with some human claiming to be able to determine your worthiness. That's part one, at least part one of the problem, right?

Dallin Seely [00:48:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:32] And then there's the shame element, you know, the public shaming element. That's another. But there's also a power dynamic because it. When we talk about the bite model, Stephen Hassan's bite model, how high demand religions use behavior, information, thought control and emotion to kind of wield undue influence. There's a lot of emotion there in, I would say, maybe not intentional, but it, but it plays out as emotional manipulation because you're on pins and needles waiting for the stake president to kind of determine whether you're worthy. And if you, and if he just says you're not, there's all this judgment and punishment. And then if he is, you're happy. There's something that, that does beyond the actual decision, which is like cement in your mind, stay in line, obey, do what the church says, or authority can come down on you at any time. Does that make sense?

Dallin Seely [00:49:32] Yeah. I didn't ever process that consciously, but subconsciously that was definitely there.

John Dehlin [00:49:37] Yeah. It reminds me of kind of the Auditing of Scientology. You just know that they've got this information on you and you better. You better stay in line. Yeah, yeah. I don't know.

Dallin Seely [00:49:48] Uh huh. Yeah. So after waiting and deliberating over my worth, they decided that I can go on a mission. And so, yeah, that. That whole process happened and yeah. Got my mission call and I left on my mission. I'm trying. Or. Yeah, I got set apart in July 20, 2010.

John Dehlin [00:50:15] Okay.

Dallin Seely [00:50:16] Yeah, 2010, my mission. My stake president set his hands on my head that night. Night before. I went to the mtc, immediately started crying and said, your dad chose where you should go on your mission.

John Dehlin [00:50:27] Oh, so that guy's claiming to be in touch with your dad on the other side of the veil, as Mormons would say.

Dallin Seely [00:50:35] Or dad relayed the message to Jesus to the. Yeah. To tell him.

John Dehlin [00:50:42] How did that make you feel?

Dallin Seely [00:50:43] Of course, everybody in the room just starts crying and like, oh, my gosh. You know, I didn't know. I was like, all right, cool. Yeah, Dad's got something for being Ohio. I don't know what.

John Dehlin [00:50:53] I mean, that would just make your mission feel more meaningful to know that your dad chose it for you.

Dallin Seely [00:50:58] Totally. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] I mean, there's the question of whether or not that actually happened, you know, and whether it's right for people to presume that because they have a thought or a feeling that it's actually true that they know your dad was involved is definitely presumptuous.

Dallin Seely [00:51:14] I didn't quite know what to make of it.

John Dehlin [00:51:16] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:51:16] After my mission, I still don't know what to make of it. I guess if I were to put my finger on one thing, it would be to meet my mission president and his wife. They're awesome. Yeah. Oh, I guess we didn't talk about going through the temple.

Temple Endowment and MTC Experience

John Dehlin [00:51:29] Yeah. Do you want to talk about that?

Dallin Seely [00:51:30] Yeah. Going through the temple to receive my endowment.

John Dehlin [00:51:33] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:51:34] Take out my endowment, as a lot of people say. Never understood what that meant. I always had the imagery. Like, am I going to go in the temple to a special room and open a drawer with my name on it and pull out like a special key like spongebob has or something? I don't know. But yeah. I had no idea what to expect. Temple prep class taught me nothing. Besides, you know, there's God makes covenants with his children, basically. So I go there, and I know I have these clothes or something green in this pouch, but, yeah, it was. I just. It was an. I had this attitude of total faith. I have no idea what's going on, but I'm beginning with the premise that the church is true and I need to change anything about me to align with the fact that the church is true. If something ever is confusing to me or is not right, it's my fault, and I need to change my mind about something. I need to shift my worldview, my paradigm, in order to align with what the church teaches. So when I went through the temple, I just had a total attitude of faith. And, I mean, obviously, it's a beautiful building. These. It puts the whole, you know, creation of the universe into perspective for you. And I was like, wow, okay. That's how it all happened. That's what it is. And I swear I felt my dad talking to me in the celestial room. When I went in there for the first time, I was bawling, and that's. It never happened since. But for the first time, I definitely felt like my dad was talking to me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:57] Wow. That's powerful.

Dallin Seely [00:52:59] Yeah, it. Yeah. Just telling me that he's proud of me and. And, yeah, on the right path, stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:53:10] Okay. Yeah. Any other thing you want to share about the temple?

Dallin Seely [00:53:17] No, I just went back a lot before my mission, just tried to make sense of everything and understand it, and. Yeah, that's about it.

John Dehlin [00:53:27] That's really neat. I mean, I. I remember wanting to have those types of experiences but not having them, so it's neat. You. I don't know, it seems neat that you were able to have that with your dad.

Dallin Seely [00:53:38] Yeah. Yeah. That was really cool. Yeah. Now, I mean. Yeah, we can. I don't know what I.

John Dehlin [00:53:47] We can talk about that later.

Dallin Seely [00:53:48] Talk about it later.

John Dehlin [00:53:48] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:53:49] Yeah. Okay. So Dallin goes on his mission, goes to the mtc, learns Spanish for eight weeks. Just dive into it. I made, like, the little district leader. Oh. One thing in the mtc, the guy, my branch president, I guess it's called, pulls me aside the first night, and I have this white wristband that me and all my best friends had in high school. One group of my friends, we all have these white wristbands. They say it says, we are nothing without brotherhood on them. It's the line from a song. And it's just something we all had together and something that we all said we would wear on our missions together. And the first night, he pulls me aside and the first thing he says in this meeting after, like, welcome, blah, blah, blah, happy you're here. He's like, that wristband of yours, what is that? And I just told him and he's like, it's going to need to come off. Yeah. And I was like, oh, is it something wrong with. It's just like wristband me and my friends all have. And he's like, yeah, you are to dedicate yourself fully to the Lord now. And we don't wear any other things besides what the handbook says. And you need to take your wristband off. I'm like, oh, okay. And super willing, faithful. Need to change myself. Not. Not. And I'm the one that's wrong. D Just quickly takes it off, puts in my pocket. Yeah, that was looking back now. Yeah, I hate that.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] But that's the behavior control we talk about. The extra strict rules of behavior can lead to more commitment and devotion and influence. Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:55:14] Yep. So where Elder Holland came while I was there, he was the only general authority that came. We were all super jazzed about that gearing up, fasting that day. And he came and just gives this riveting speech, you know, getting super emotional like he does about how this is real life out there. People say that mission is a fishbowl or whatever. It's actually the other way around. This is real life. That is not real life out there. This is what it's all about right in here telling us. And we were so amped up after that, we were like, yeah, this is real life. And I remember reading my journal like, this is. It's all coming together. It all makes so much sense. I am an emissary of the Lord Jesus Christ. And, you know, just getting so amped up. I loved the mtc. I thought I did.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] Yeah, me too.

Dallin Seely [00:56:08] Yeah. Loved the food, everything. Geez, I'm trying to remember any other big moments in the MTC that I should share. I don't think so. I just remember working so hard. Oh. I remember studying a ton. And my mind would go from one topic to the next. And then I thought that the spirit was telling me, look at this footnote. And that come to later find out I have add, but I just remember these. I would think I would have the most guided study by the Spirit as I'm studying one scripture to the next, taking notes and taking everything so, so, so seriously, working so hard, like, this is my time. This is real life.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:56:53] Yeah.

Mission Highlights and Troubling Experiences

John Dehlin [00:56:54] So how was your mission?

Dallin Seely [00:56:56] A lot of awesome experiences on my mission. There's definitely. There's A few notes that I take in about just, like, specific highlights that I wanted. I guess now, looking back at my whole Mormon journey, I would define it as death by a thousand cuts. And there's a few cuts that I wanted to say that happened on my mission. I guess the whole time I'm looking to see what's this special family or person that's going to be like, I knew your dad or something and your dad is the reason, or you came here specifically for me type stuff. None of that ever really happened.

John Dehlin [00:57:33] What do you mean?

Dallin Seely [00:57:34] Because my dad was. They told me to go to Ohio, you know.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:57:38] So I'm looking for the reason my dad wanted me to go to Ohio this whole time. Yeah. Come to find out, like, someone would

John Dehlin [00:57:45] have talked to him in somebody that

Dallin Seely [00:57:47] my dad knew that since fallen away from the church and I'm sent to find. You know, I have this. All these stories in my head of, like, why my dad really wants me to go to Ohio.

John Dehlin [00:57:56] That would lead to rumination and.

Dallin Seely [00:57:58] Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [00:57:59] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [00:58:00] And every time I'm. I'm not working hard, as I conceptually could in my head, I'm wondering if I'm missing out on what my dad needs me to be doing in Ohio type stuff.

John Dehlin [00:58:08] You're forfeiting what his plan was for you.

Dallin Seely [00:58:11] Yeah. That was constantly a stressor in the back of my mind, especially as my mission came closer to an end and wondering, you know, did I miss something? But no, I don't rack my brain over that anymore. Yeah. But there were a few things that happened on my mission that I wanted to highlight. One of them was, I guess, just going out. So jazzed, so excited for mtc. Like, I have the special power of the spirit to convert people. I remember going to this lady's house. She was a single mom with some kids. We taught. We got a member to come in because, of course, elders can't go in a home where only a woman is there, not another man. And she was willing and open to learn the gospel from us. And we were like, this is awesome. This single mom is going to be blessed so much. And of course, you know, kind of think about my mom a little bit and how much the church helped us growing up. And so we start teaching her the first lesson about how God calls prophets and Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. We left her a Book of Mormon. She had some Christian background. She was super open to it, and she was going to read it. And this is the first big, you know, seemingly golden investigator that I had had In a while. And we'd been fasting and praying for this to happen and we're like so excited. And so we leave her with the Book of Mormon. She commits to read it. We set our next appointment, we come back in a few days and we're so excited to hear her experience reading the Book of Mormon. And so we, we sit in a living room, say the opening prayer and we're like, so what'd you think? How'd you read? And she was like, oh, there's, I, I can't read this book anymore. It seems like a really bad book to me. She's like, the whole, the first story in there is about a guy going back to steal some plates and God tells him to chop off his head and put on his clothes. Like, wouldn't his clothes be covered in blood? And second, then he makes his voice change to sound like Laban's voice. And she was like, that was so weird to me, Elders. And I was like, I didn't know what to make of this. And I'm just like, I didn't know what to say. I was like dumbfounded for a little bit. And I'm like, well yeah, but you gotta keep reading. Try to, I don't know, I'm a 19 year old kid, don't know what to say. And she just said, please don't come back. Bye. And we left her house, like dumbfounded. Absolutely dumbfounded. That's, that's, that was a little notch and I guess in a little shelf item, I guess you could call it outsider's perspective.

John Dehlin [01:00:46] That makes a little bit of a little too much sense.

Dallin Seely [01:00:49] You're thinking about this too much. Yeah, exactly. Oh man. Another one just. I was so studious, taking study time so seriously. As soon as 8 o', clock, if we're not there praying and say your prayer at 7:59, so you'd be ready to study by 8 o'. Clock. And me and my companion, I had this one companion, freaking loved him. We were together for seven months. We studied so much. He knew the scriptures in and out. Every once in a while we would talk to each other about little questions we had about things. Be like, why is, why is Moroni quoting Corinthians? Stuff like that.

John Dehlin [01:01:20] And for those who don't know that, why would that be a problem?

Dallin Seely [01:01:24] It's a total anachronism in the Book of Mormon, you know, in Moroni chapter 7 where all of a sudden he's quoting First John and Corinthians 13, this

John Dehlin [01:01:31] is written Corinthians would Have been Paul written in the old world.

Dallin Seely [01:01:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:36] After Jesus has died, Moroni, in the, in the Americas without the aid of cell phones or the Internet. Shouldn't be quoting the New Testament before the New Testament probably existed. Is that what you mean?

Dallin Seely [01:01:51] Right, okay, yeah, yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [01:01:53] And you, you noticed that on your mission?

Dallin Seely [01:01:55] Yeah. Oh, that's not good. And I would ask him and he's like, yeah, I don't know. And then there was another time where he asked me one time, he's like, elder, why do you think Jesus said raqqa? And I was like, I don't know, what does raqqa mean? And he's like, that's. I'm pretty sure that's like a old Hebrew word that these Native American ancient inhabits of America wouldn't have context for. And I'm like, huh, I don't know. Eventually a few little things like that, back and forth. I remember going, a member picked us up to take us to his house for dinner, go to a lesson or something. And we asked him about that because it was something we had kind of been wondering about. And he was like, he had a smile on his face and he's like, oh, there's great question. I have had the same question for a long time. And then one day I finally realized, who's the author of the scriptures? It's God. God wrote the scriptures. He can say the same thing in two different books if he wants to. And I was like, yeah, okay. And I just kind of turned it off. Yeah, turn it off. So that's what I did. And oh, shoot. There was. I was never like, confronted with a bunch of ex Mormon stuff all at once or anti stuff all at once. Besides, one time there was notes in the missionary handbook, do not go to this member's house. He is a angry ex Mormon, blah, blah, blah. And we were like, let's just go meet him. And he let us right in. And then he starts laying into us about how could the seer stone give a perfect thing and not change until Oliver Cowdery wrote it down correctly? And then there's 100,000 changes in the Book of Mormon afterwards. How come polygamy this, how come blacks and the priests did this? And for 20 minutes and it was too much for me to process and I reverted back into. I was in a place where I couldn't think about this because it was attacking me and my whole worldview. So I remember like, you know, there's answers to these, we just don't have them yet. Type messaging. And we Left. Me and my companion left and we were kind of silent for a long time. Driving home, we went and we didn't have a dinner appointment that night, so we just went home and had dinner. We were kind of quiet. And I just remember thinking to myself, have faith. There's probably answers to stuff like this and move on. Bury it. Turn it off.

John Dehlin [01:04:14] Yeah. I don't always do this, but if we're referencing that bite model again, it's important that high demand religions control information and control thoughts. And one of the reasons why apostates. Normally, if you look at Jesus's metaphor of the hundred lost sheep or the 99, you leave the 99 to go after the 1. You always go after the 1, according to Jesus. Right. Because that's the whole point of it. You don't focus on the people that are good. You focus on the people that need it. But the irony is high demand religions are like, stay away from anyone who's ever lost their faith. Now, if you had, if someone had bought a bad car, if someone had bought a Chrysler and it was a piece of junk, they would be a credible witness for why someone should or shouldn't consider buying a Chrysler. You would want. That's why we have reviews on Amazon. Right. You want to be able to talk to people who've had experience with the thing, so that can inform your decision.

Dallin Seely [01:05:10] Right.

John Dehlin [01:05:10] But. But a high demand religion is going to say not only are apostates, you know, ex religious people scary, not only are they dangerous, stay away from them.

Dallin Seely [01:05:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:22] And that's, that's because it, it can negatively affect you. Right?

Dallin Seely [01:05:26] Yeah. No, it was too much all at once. And I just, I was convinced that there are answers out there and I didn't know him yet.

John Dehlin [01:05:34] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:05:35] And there's explanations and it was bitter.

John Dehlin [01:05:38] That's your shelf though, right?

Dallin Seely [01:05:39] Yeah. It was honestly too much information all at once. And I hadn't heard any of it before, so I just honestly didn't remember a lot of what he said.

John Dehlin [01:05:48] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:05:48] All I could remember is very confusing. Had zero answers for him. I hadn't heard any of that info before and I thought it was all lies from Satan, that's it.

John Dehlin [01:05:56] But that, that stuff does go on the shelf in the sense of you remember it such that if it comes up again, then it, then you start to remember, oh, this isn't the first time.

Dallin Seely [01:06:06] The one thing I do remember is he was like, if the accounts of the translation process say that he would see what to dictate on the stone and it wouldn't change until he wrote it down correctly. Why are there so many changes afterwards? And yeah, that was one thing I remember. Obviously there's. Yeah. Anyways, this is.

John Dehlin [01:06:23] This is 2015, 16, 2010 to 2012. Okay.

Dallin Seely [01:06:27] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:06:28] This is pre Gospel topics essays.

Dallin Seely [01:06:30] I guess so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:31] Pre CES letter.

Dallin Seely [01:06:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:33] Okay.

Dallin Seely [01:06:33] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:06:34] All right.

Dallin Seely [01:06:35] Yeah. Now I understand that some missions are given the CS letter to read or. And along with rebuttals to. I definitely didn't have any of that information at all.

John Dehlin [01:06:43] Okay.

Dallin Seely [01:06:44] Yeah. Probably one of the biggest shelf items for me was when Elder Bednar came to my mission, he had a few things from what Elder Bednar said to my mission. He said firstly, I guess jumping to the Q and A portion, he talked for us for like two hours about the spirit, how it answers questions and light and all sorts of Bednar ruminations. And then when we got to the Q and A part, somebody asked about why children are sealed to their parents. If. Oh, Elder Bednar taught something about how in heaven. He was just rambling for a while and he said, okay. A lot of people get all caught up in the idea of being a forever family with your kids in heaven after you die. But in reality, it's not a bunch of little huts up there in heaven, it's just one hut. And we're all together primarily as husband and wife. You see it differently than me. I'm just with Susan now. But you still see your mom and dad and kids and stuff. But in heaven it's primarily husband and wife. And so I guess one question I left from that was like, why are kids even sealed to their parents? What's the point? You know, what's that Makes zero sense. Like, if you adopt a kid, why are they still their parents or whatever. That was a question that I had. And somebody from the missionary department came out later and I asked him that question. He said something about blessings of Abraham in their life or something like that.

John Dehlin [01:08:07] But this one's tricky because on the one hand, one of the most compelling selling points for Mormonism is when the missionary shows up to the Never Mormons home and says, hey, you want to be with your wife forever? You ought to be with your husband forever. Want to be with your kids forever. Well, we're the only church that does Eternal families join our church. So that that's the selling point to get you in. But then you realize later, kids fall away, spouses fall away, parents fall away. Yeah, like that. That perfect Mormon family becomes sad heaven when. When people don't follow the plan or they don't convert if they're converts. And then all of a sudden, the general authorities have to answer these questions. What do I do if my spouse left the church? What do I do if my kids fall away? What do I do if my parents never joined? Then they've got to deal with, like, people's expectation that they're going to have an eternal family. Yeah. So Bednar would have needed over time to have this sort of new understanding to share with the missionaries, because otherwise it's sad heaven for everyone, Right?

Dallin Seely [01:09:16] Yeah. And the kind of snide way he said it, like, everybody thinks it's, you're all in your little hut in heaven with your family. It's actually just one big hut, and you're primarily there with your spouse. And it was just like, oh, I've been stressing about being with my dad again forever. Now all of a sudden, he's telling me that it's mainly just me and my spouse. Eventually.

John Dehlin [01:09:36] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:09:37] And we're all one big happy family, like all the other Christian churches believe. I was all like, we're gonna start creating our own planets and populating them type stuff. You know, that's what all the deep doctrine you study on your mission. I remember one time a companion turned to me. He was like, do you think God has more than one wife? And I was like, what? Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So stuff like that. But the biggest thing that Elder Bednar said that was, like, through us and pretty much our whole mission through a loop was this one missionary stood up during the Q and A, and he was like. He was. We were all. Before the mission, we were like, are we going to ask him if he's seen Jesus? Are we going to. How should we ask it? And so this missionary finally stands up, and he's like. He's like, what does it mean to be a special witness of Jesus Christ? And Elder Bednar's like, he said it so snidely. He's like. He's like, first off, let's open Doctrine and covenants. It's not special witness of Jesus Christ. It's special witness of the name of Jesus Christ. None of us have seen Jesus. He, like, waved his hands like this. He's like, none of us have seen Jesus. We are special witnesses for the name of Jesus Christ throughout the world. And that's rebranding.

John Dehlin [01:10:54] That's altering the doctrine.

Dallin Seely [01:10:55] I had watched the special witnesses video so many times on my mission.

John Dehlin [01:10:59] What did it say?

Dallin Seely [01:11:00] Or all the apostles, one after another, share a little message next to the Baptismal font, blah, blah, blah. And then they turn straight to the camera, breaking the fourth wall, and they're like, I want to testify to you that I know that Jesus Christ has been resurrected. He lives today type stuff.

John Dehlin [01:11:19] Well, they say things like, I know his face.

Dallin Seely [01:11:21] I know his face. I will not know any better then than I know now that Jesus is the Christ that he the filled. Yeah. When I feel the prints and the nails of his hands and his feet, I will not know any better than that. I know now. That's Bruce Armakkenki.

John Dehlin [01:11:34] Yeah. Yeah. And. And again, this is a, A reoccurring theme in your story, because it's the church changing the message. It's. It's levels of messaging. Because when you're, when you're converted in the church or when you're a kid being raised Mormon, it's like, prophets talk to God, period. That's why we have prophets. Joseph Smith talked to God and Jesus

Dallin Seely [01:11:53] made so much sense.

John Dehlin [01:11:54] The current prophet talks to God and Jesus. Like, that's. And they're all prophets and revelators.

Dallin Seely [01:11:58] What's the holy of holies?

John Dehlin [01:11:59] Even for right in the temple. In the temple to what?

Dallin Seely [01:12:02] We would. We would ponder about that all the time. And I had a class before a mission where the institute seminary teacher talked about the holy of holies. The prophet is the only one that can go in there, sets a special time apart where the cleaners will move the plant to the side so he can go in the room. And all this, you know, it builds up in everybody's head. My first mission president said, read between the lines in general conference. They know. And he would tell us all this stuff. And then to hear Elder Bednar, just kind of brash and brash fashion, just like none of us have seen Jesus. Like, it threw us all for a loop a little bit like, talking about that afterwards.

John Dehlin [01:12:45] And, and, you know, not to beat them up, but. But they, they kind of need to have it both ways. They want you to believe that they've talked to God and Jesus. Otherwise, what's the point of obeying them or doing what they say or our church versus all the other churches? That's, again, that's one of the selling points of Mormonism. Eternal families, our leaders talk to God and have God's authority. All the others don't. So that's what they need everyone to think and feel to get them really committed. But then once they're really committed, it's like, well, wait a minute, then why did you change the polygamy thing? Where we used to practice it, but now we don't. Wait, why did we exclude priesthood from black people? But now we don't. LGBT stuff. What about all those. What about Spencer Kimmel's miracle forgiveness? Wait, was that of God or not? So they need a way to be able to kind of backpedal and say, we're not perfect and we make mistakes and.

Dallin Seely [01:13:37] Yeah, it's an ongoing restoration. Ongoing restoration.

John Dehlin [01:13:41] So that's why. And. And they. I guess they don't want to be liars, because I'm sure they get. Once those apostles actually get to the position and they, like, don't see God or Jesus, they don't want to be liars.

Dallin Seely [01:13:54] I've thought about that. Like, I wonder if they have a mini crisis of faith once they get there. Yeah, they're looking at Elder Bednar held up his scriptures. Like, I have the same scriptures as you do. I don't have an answer book in the back or anything. That was kind of funny.

John Dehlin [01:14:07] So they need to be able to give mixed messages. It's like, listen to us and obey us because we represent Jesus and God. Well, we haven't totally seen him. We testify to the name of Christ, not as actually witnesses of Christ.

Dallin Seely [01:14:23] Yeah. Yep. There was one other kind of thing that made me, you know, turn my head when my mission president, this is my first mission president, he said he was in a training with Russell M. Nelson one time, and he was like, apparently Russell M. Nelson turned to my mission president and said, extend me a calling. Extend me a calling president. Maybe this was before he went out or something. And he was like, okay, pretend like you're in a bishopric. And like, okay, this is a bishopric, or we're extending you to calling of being an elders quorum. And he said, Russell. And Nelson was like, wrong president. The Lord is calling you to serve as elders quorum president. Try again.

John Dehlin [01:15:05] Oh, man.

Dallin Seely [01:15:06] And so he did that exact noise. He was like, wrong president. And so he's like, oh, yeah, the Lord has called you to serve as elders Corinth president. And he's like, that's better. And so it made me just kind of, I guess, put myself in the. In the head of the apostles, is that they are operating with the precedence that this is true. This is Lord's church, and we are just acting in his name. And they just run with that.

John Dehlin [01:15:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:15:38] So, yeah, that was Elder Bednar coming to my mission.

John Dehlin [01:15:41] They always say, never meet your heroes.

Dallin Seely [01:15:43] I guess. So that's where I started to, I guess, pull the curtain back a Little bit or something and see, it's just a man pulling some levers. Yeah, but I didn't, I didn't come to that conclusion. I was still very much. Well, this is something about me that I need to change about my paradigm that I need to shift because. Yeah. Why? How silly me. Why have I not. Why did I think that? Yeah, I guess they're just, you know, all the justifications and things that you do in your head.

John Dehlin [01:16:12] Have more faith.

Dallin Seely [01:16:13] Have more faith. Just look at it that way, like other Benner. Yeah, yeah, I saw it wrong.

John Dehlin [01:16:17] Yeah. In your outline you've got mini missionary bearing testimony. Did you already tell.

Dallin Seely [01:16:22] Oh man, yeah, yeah, thanks for reminding me. Shoot. This was another one. We had a mini missionary week and we had the stake president's son as our mini missionary. Oh, It's. He was 18, about to go out on mission, so he's going out living with full time missionaries for a week

John Dehlin [01:16:37] on splits or whatever.

Dallin Seely [01:16:38] Yeah, well not even splits. He's actually living with us 24 7. And we went to this house, we were out tracting or knocking doors for like an hour. Nobody let us in. Finally this lady let us in and I think her, I don't know if her husband wasn't there or in the other room. It's funny that I stress about this and still feel like I have to explain it to go in and sit in her room and teach her the first lesson. And we let our mini missionary take the reins a lot and he's so like well studied and he was a solid kid. And yeah, you know, we go through the whole thing. This lady just sits there so nicely and listens to us for like an hour and she was so patient with us and we're just talking most of the time, she's hardly saying anything. And then my mini missionary at the end he tears up and he's testifying so powerfully, crying about how grateful he is for modern prophets, for modern revelation. He gets to live with his family forever. And I was feeling the spirit so strong I almost started crying. My companions just like blush in the face like, holy cow, this is a powerhouse lesson. This is amazing. This is what they told us, the mtc. This person has to be feeling spirit so strong right now. And so we were like, after my mini missionary bore his solid testimony bawling to this lady, I turned to her and I was like, when can we come back and share with you more of this message of love from our heavenly father? And she was like, I'm not interested, but thank you for stopping by. And we were just like. Another one of those moments where we were just like, wait, what? This isn't what they taught us would happen. This isn't what all the promises in the scriptures say. This isn't what. You know, it had every indication of going, like, so well. And I thought I was feeling the spirit so strong and, like, how could she not be feeling the spirit? That type of stuff in my head. And she just kind of excused us from her house, and we were like, weird. And then we just turned it off and kept going about our day.

John Dehlin [01:18:40] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:18:40] Yeah. So, yeah. Another one of those little. Little shelf items, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:18:47] Yeah. All right. And then you've got extreme accountability on your outline.

Dallin Seely [01:18:53] Oh, I guess we don't have to talk about that too much. The elder Lindy Robbins came out to my mission and taught this concept of extreme accountability, which, of course, my scrupulosity clung on to hardcore. It was this idea that whatever happens or doesn't happen is your fault. And if somebody doesn't come to church, that's because you didn't follow up with them enough. If somebody doesn't get baptized, that's because you didn't teach them enough. It was this whole idea of you are to be extremely accountable for everything that happens. And if somebody doesn't show up on Sunday, it's because you didn't call them that morning or you didn't go over there and make them breakfast or, you know. And so that was something that stuck with me for a long time after my mission where I internalized this message. If something doesn't happen a certain way, then it's my fault.

John Dehlin [01:19:36] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:19:37] And I internalize that hard. That. That plays into my marriage. That plays into, like, kids. And a lot later on in life of me blaming myself for literally anything that didn't go how I had imagined it going.

John Dehlin [01:19:53] Yeah. One of the most troubling stories I've ever heard on Mormon stories was this kid named Trey Shortland who. From the Oakland area who was serving a mission and was, you know, couldn't stop masturbating. But he was taught that if you weren't worthy as a missionary, there'd be people you wouldn't convert because you were unworthy.

Dallin Seely [01:20:17] Oh.

John Dehlin [01:20:17] And it was. It drove him crazy to the point of wanting to chop off his own penis as a missionary because he felt like he was preventing people from returning to their father in heaven because of his wickedness.

Dallin Seely [01:20:33] Man, that's so sad.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] But you. You can see how someone would do that math.

Dallin Seely [01:20:40] I received that same Messaging in the mtc. Like, if I'm not worthy, then there could possibly be people that I wouldn't reach that I otherwise would have. But if you do baptize people unworthily, then it counts for them, but it counts against you and the eternal scales type messaging. Yeah, I heard all that. Luckily, I didn't, you know, have it as extreme in my head as that. As that guy did.

John Dehlin [01:21:02] Just different people take different things that they hear at different levels of seriousness, you know?

Dallin Seely [01:21:08] Yeah, yeah, yep. And you. And everybody's different. You know, it's not one size fits all.

John Dehlin [01:21:15] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:21:16] Some people need to be told super directly, you know, cut it out. And other people are a little more sensitive and need a little more padding on the back sometimes, you know?

John Dehlin [01:21:25] Yeah. All right, so anything else you want to say about your mission?

Returning Home and Navigating Early Doubts

Dallin Seely [01:21:32] Oh, man, I. I think that's it. Like. Like, by the end of my mission, I had to come to the conclusion that meeting my second mission president and his wife were the reason my dad wanted me to go, because they were just super awesome people and taught me a lot. I remember the night of my. The night leaving, I had my, you know, exit interview with mission president, and he. I was like, is there any advice you have for me, specifically, like, counsel for me? And he said, do things because it's the right thing to do, not because you feel like you should do it.

John Dehlin [01:22:05] Yeah, that's good advice.

Dallin Seely [01:22:07] Yeah, that's really good advice. It didn't register with me until, you know, the past few years what that meant, because Mormonism is full of shoulds.

John Dehlin [01:22:17] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:22:17] You know, so I'm like, how do you get into that point when you're told everything you should do? How does one become a person that does it? Because. I don't know, I guess that's what Elder Ben. I would call true conversion or something. But, yeah, I would say I was pretty converted, but I was still in my head, you know, doing everything because I was. Wanted to be a good boy, what I was told I should do.

John Dehlin [01:22:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:22:42] But no. Yeah. My mission president. There's other lessons. We don't have to get into everything. But, yeah, Overall positive impact on me from my mission president, and I. I guess I later attributed that to, you know, if my dad really was the reason I went to Ohio. Actually, I met a lot of other people in the mission who had cardiac or. Oh, I guess this is part of my story. I never shared. I had heart surgery when I was 8. Open heart surgery. Yeah. Okay. We scanned over that. I had open Heart surgery when I was 8 and I met a lot of other missionaries who had heart problems in Ohio. Come to find out there is a. One of the leading, you know, heart surgery places in the countries in Ohio. It just kind of made me wonder if that's where they send. Oh, missionaries with heart issues.

John Dehlin [01:23:32] Yeah. Just so that you're there.

Dallin Seely [01:23:34] I don't know if that's true or not, but yeah, I met a few other missionaries and I learned Cleveland Clinic, so it might be okay. Yeah, it's one of the. The nation's leading, you know, areas for heart research and heart surgery and stuff.

John Dehlin [01:23:46] Interesting.

Dallin Seely [01:23:47] Yeah. So it kind of. It was something I allowed myself to question for like a split second, but then I just, you know, buried it.

John Dehlin [01:23:53] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So you. Should we come. So you come home from your mission. Is that where we go next?

Courtship, Marriage, and Temple Ceremonies

Dallin Seely [01:24:01] Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [01:24:03] All right.

Dallin Seely [01:24:04] Come home from a mission, man. So much messaging at the time about getting married right after your mission. Elder Bednar told us the only reason he passed his doctorate level classes was because he was married with kids, that

John Dehlin [01:24:16] if you weren't married, you wouldn't be able to.

Dallin Seely [01:24:18] Even though he told us all of his classmates thought he was crazy, none of them were married with kids. And I'm sure a lot of them passed to. It was kind of confusing. But yeah, he told us the only reason he passed was because he's married with kids. And lots of general conference messaging about getting married as soon as you get back from mission at that time. I feel like they've tempered that down a little bit recently, but I knew that was my next job on my path was to go get married. And so I start. I go to college at Weber State and start dating a little bit. And I remember that girl from efy, I wanted to. I wrote her on and off and I wanted to meet up with her again. And she came out to visit after I got back from my mission. No, I, like, chatted with her on Skype and she had a nose ring. And I was like, is that a nose ring? And she was kind of ashamed. And she was like, yeah, yeah, that's a nose ring. And I eventually found out that her and her family had left the church while I was on my mission. And they were one of the big, biggest influences for me. Just like, you know, getting the. Getting, you know, feeling gung ho about the church and motivation to go on a mission and motivation to stay out there and work hard was. Was her and her family. And so coming back and finding out that her and her whole family had left the church was like, a big blow to me. I didn't know how to process that. I was like, oh, my gosh. The. Like, Satan's got his hands on more and more people these days. You know, all the standard messaging. And I immediately, in my head, blamed her dad, as we're taught to do you know that it's her dad's fault. And I would message them. We actually met up and I talked to them, and I would tell them, I have pretty rude things about how straight is the way and narrow is the path that leaves eternal life, and few be there that find it. And you guys have, you know, gotten involved in all the details and missed the bigger picture type stuff. They were super nice, understanding. But I was pretty. I was a pretty. I was pretty rude to him. Pretty judgmental.

John Dehlin [01:26:21] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:26:22] I've since apologized and we're still. I've talked to him since, and he's actually helped me a lot recently and good friends with him again. But, yeah, that girl has since gotten married, and I understand she's really happy, so that's cool. But I mainly just talk to her dad now and from time to time. But, yeah, so I've since apologized to them for how rude I was and judgmental I was.

John Dehlin [01:26:44] Righteous indignation.

Dallin Seely [01:26:45] My righteous indignation. I remember praying hard. I looked up some websites, like, from some things that she told me. I was like, did Brigham Young really say this? And this is how I found FairMormon.com and I'm like, huh, this is perfect. Look at all these answers to all these controversial questions. I should send this to that guy on my mission. And I told her, like, look, here's this website. It's got all these answers to these concerns that you have. And, like, just read it and you'll be good. And she's like, it's more complicated than that. D. And she was like, so this

John Dehlin [01:27:15] was right off your mission?

Dallin Seely [01:27:16] Yeah, right after my mission.

John Dehlin [01:27:17] You're. This is the girl that you're probably thinking, maybe I'll marry her.

Dallin Seely [01:27:20] I had. Well, I thought that about every girl I dated. But, yeah, I was very good friends with her. I definitely had thoughts that we might get married and.

John Dehlin [01:27:27] And you got home. What year this year would have been what year? Approximately 2012. Okay, so still pretty gospel topics, essays and pre CES letter. But Fairmormon would have had a robust website, by the way.

Dallin Seely [01:27:39] Yep. Yeah, I discovered staymormon.org or something. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know at the time. Stale yes.

John Dehlin [01:27:47] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:27:48] And look at you following the rules before. It was cool.

John Dehlin [01:27:51] I tried.

Dallin Seely [01:27:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:52] Sweet. Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:27:55] Yeah. So I was just like, look, just read this website and all your. All your little concerns will be solved. And she was like, oh, Stale ds. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:02] You referred her to stalethia. Com.

Dallin Seely [01:28:04] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:05] That was literally written in 2007.

Dallin Seely [01:28:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:28:08] After I had stopped going to church and then came back and said, there needs to be a manual for how to stay in the church after you've lost your faith, just as a kind of a cultural non literal, progressive Mormon. So I wrote. We can include a link to it. I wrote an entire, like, 80 page essay on how to stay in the church because it's what I was doing and I wanted to help other people do it. So it's fun that that influenced you. That's still up there. I'll have Julia find that essay, how to stay in the Church after a curse of faith, and link to it because it's still. People still use it. Bishops would refer it to members of their ward that were having faith crisis.

Dallin Seely [01:28:47] Yeah. I think that she said she had seen. That she had seen Fairmormon. She was like, have you heard of rough stone rolling? And I was like, yeah. My mission president said it's a great book and I should read it. And she was like, you should read it. And. And I just. I could not. We could not connect. It just wasn't there. So eventually we were like, I guess this means we have to. We have to just part ways. And she was like, yeah, I guess so. And we were both pretty sad. And it was just. That was that. And I was so quick to. To say goodbye to her, which is so shocking to me.

John Dehlin [01:29:24] You dispatched with her.

Dallin Seely [01:29:25] I did, yeah. Off with you. Yeah, yeah. Heathen. And I was done, like, so quick to change myself and what I wanted for the church.

John Dehlin [01:29:33] Yeah. Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:29:34] And just to be a good boy,

John Dehlin [01:29:36] be faithful on other women, on other girls, till you find on to find

Dallin Seely [01:29:40] a more faithful, stalwart one.

John Dehlin [01:29:42] Okay.

Dallin Seely [01:29:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:45] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:29:45] So, yeah, I went to Weber State, got enrolled in institute classes. I took a church history class, started to learn a few more details than I'd ever heard before. I learned about the rock in the hat translation process. I had actually heard one of my members of Stake presidency mention that briefly growing up during, like a young man, young women activity. And everybody kind of looked to him when he. Everybody's saying how Joseph Smith just looked at plates, translating. He was like, actually he looked in a hat, in a stone in a hat. And that's how he translated. And everybody kind of looked back at him during this lesson. We were like, okay, that's weird. Anyways, I learned that that was actually a thing in church history class, and my teacher said, you know what? Some people think this is weird, but when I look at a compact disc, I see a shiny disc. And when somebody tells me that I can put that in a CD player and push play and music will come out of it, that's all I need to know to understand that there are some things that I just won't understand, but other people do. And I trust in God for the Seer stone.

John Dehlin [01:30:45] Ergo, Joseph translated gold plates by putting a stone in a hat.

Dallin Seely [01:30:50] Yeah. Russell Nielsen did the same thing with the iPhone. It's like an iPhone. And I'm like, okay, we have thousands of tech professionals who gladly explain to you how an iPhone works. But anyways, I digress. I remember stopping another institute teacher once after class after learning about blacks in the priesthood, and I just straight up asked him, like, I figuring he would have a solid answer, you know, oh, yeah, this is what a prophet said or whatever. About what?

John Dehlin [01:31:13] And you're talking about black people.

Dallin Seely [01:31:14] Oh, yeah, yeah. So until 1978, black people could not receive the priesthood, or any black person couldn't go through the temple.

John Dehlin [01:31:20] In the Mormon Church.

Dallin Seely [01:31:21] In the Mormon Church, yeah. Yeah. And I asked him about it straight up. He's like, like, why was that, thinking you'd have a solid answer, you know? And he was just like, I don't know. I don't know, Dallas,

John Dehlin [01:31:35] you get that answer a lot.

Dallin Seely [01:31:37] Yeah. And I was like, oh, cool. And I was like, okay. And then I remember another institute class, my teacher, he was an awesome teacher. I really liked him. But we opened up to. It was about the Book of Abraham. I wasn't super interested in the Book of Abraham, but I took classes because I really liked this teacher. And I remember him. The first class we're doing the introduction of the Book of Abraham, and he's like, and the Book of Abraham is a revelation. And I was like, why is he so adamant about this? Isn't pretty sure it was the translation, right? And I would. I. Because I thought of. I was pretty sure it was a translation. I look at the first verse, and it's like, I, Abraham, read whatever it says. This is a translation from papyri obtained, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, why is he calling it a revelation? And I never looked more into it since then. I have. But I wondered why he was so adamant that it was A revelation and not a translation.

John Dehlin [01:32:28] It's kind of like me thinks thou does protest too much, right?

Dallin Seely [01:32:31] Yeah, yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:32:33] It's a bit of a tell.

Dallin Seely [01:32:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:36] Somebody's a little bit too.

Dallin Seely [01:32:37] Too adamant about a certain point without anybody in the class asking anything about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was another little, I guess, shelf item. Yeah, yeah. Right there. In institute class, there was an institute teacher who had a son or daughter within a serious accident. And we were all fasting and praying for them that it would get better. And I remember asking, if. If God's will is done anyways, then what's the point of fasting? I remember asking that. And he was like, interesting question, class. What do you think? And everybody is just like, well, Bible dictionary says some blessings made conditional upon us asking for them, and maybe God is testing our faith, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I guess I resolved in that moment that my best answer I could come up with was, I don't want any blessing to go withheld from me because I didn't pray and ask for it. So I'm just going to pray and ask for everything. And if God wants to, then I will check that box just to cover my bases, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:33:37] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:33:38] But, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:40] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:33:41] So, yeah, a few. A few things from institute that I had there. All the while knowing that I wanted to be an EFY counselor, baby. Because I had so much fun at EFY when I was in high school. So I'm like, this summer, I want to work as an EFY counselor. And I really had a feeling I was going to meet my wife at efy. Of course I'm having feelings. Any girl that walks by could possibly be my wife. I was like, I really think I meet my wife at EFY as a counselor. So I applied, got accepted as EFY counselor. They were thrilled because way more girls and guys want to be FY counselors, apparently. But. But I got in, and that was the summer of 2013.

John Dehlin [01:34:20] Okay.

Dallin Seely [01:34:21] I was the EFY counselor. That was fun. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:24] At Weber State.

Dallin Seely [01:34:26] It was actually one of the few years where I guess they flew counselors all over the country. So I got to go to. One was at Weber, then one was out in Georgia. Then one was in Ohio, actually, where I served. So that was cool. Yeah. And I traveled with the same group of counselors all around to these different areas. That was really fun. Yeah, that was sweet. 400 bucks a week as a flight counselor.

John Dehlin [01:34:49] That's good money.

Dallin Seely [01:34:49] It's pretty good.

John Dehlin [01:34:50] Yeah. Yeah, it's good.

Dallin Seely [01:34:51] And plus housing and food and Everything. So that was cool. That was fun. The first girl I saw there, I was like, she's the one. And so, like, I got to know her and we were hanging out for a few weeks, but then I met Ashley. She was another EFY counselor. And I was like. And we got to be pretty good friends. But there's other girl was one that I was already twitterpated by, and we were talking, so it kind of became this. This back and forth thing, you know, awkward. But I really felt that God wanted me to marry this first girl that I, of course, you know, that I ran into and. But eventually I started to become better and better friends with Ashley. And then me and Ashley kissed one night.

John Dehlin [01:35:38] Oops.

Dallin Seely [01:35:40] Yeah. And so I'm like, feeling all pulled or torn, pulled one way and the other because I really like Ashley, but I feel like God wants me to marry this girl. And this is the first instance in Dallin's life where I eventually, a year later, followed what I wanted instead of what I felt that God wanted was. Was marrying Ashley. Anyways, I actually backing up, I. I broke off with Ashley and pursued this other girl. But as I pursued her more and more and she actually went on a mission, I was writing her for a while and I just. I couldn't stop thinking about Ashley. So I wrote that other girl off to my eternal detriment in my head, thinking, I'm going against God's eternal plan for me being married to this girl. Because I really liked Ashley.

John Dehlin [01:36:31] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:36:32] So that was a really big. I racked my brain over that for days. I went back and looked at my journal during that time, just, oh, man. Dallin was racking his brain over what he wanted versus what God wanted, and reading scriptures and justifying what about this? But also, Bruce Armaconki said that he didn't pray a whole bunch about who he should marry. He just find a woman that suited him. And he prayed for confirmation. So maybe if Bruce Armaconki didn't receive a ton of revelation, then I shouldn't either. But then there's this, and it's internal consequences if you marry the wrong person. And I would just go back and forth so much. And finally I was like, oh, I went on a date with some with a high school friend and I went and saw Frozen and Elsa. I related to Elsa a whole bunch where she finally was like, screw it. I'm doing what I feel like I want to do. And so I just. Turns out I really love the movie Frozen. And for whatever reason, that was the impetus for me, writing off that girl, telling Ashley I haven't stopped thinking about her. And me and Ashley went to a, like a weekend EFY event where we were both counselors together and told her that I haven't gone a day without thinking about her. And that was like January 2024. By end of February 2014. Oh, sorry, 2014. By the end of February, we were engaged. And in June, we were married.

John Dehlin [01:37:48] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. There's this problem that, you know, we're taught to equate positive emotions or feelings as Mormons with the Holy Ghost or God's will.

Dallin Seely [01:38:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:03] So on the one hand, it's super presumptuous to think anyone could know the mind and will of God. On the other hand, you're feeling these super strong urges with this first girl you meet, and you're trying to make sense of those you're not taught. Oh, those are called hormones. And you're attracted and you want to probably have sex. And this is how bodies work. You're instead, like, well, I've got all these feelings. What does it mean? Oh, it's the Holy Ghost. Oh, God, what do you want from me? Oh, it must be a sign that I'm supposed to marry them. But then you're stuck with that. And. And it. And that's interesting because it leaves you feeling like you're disobeying God.

Dallin Seely [01:38:40] Yeah. Weird.

John Dehlin [01:38:41] Otherwise. You say otherwise. You have to say, I misinterpreted those emotions as God's will. But then that's going to make you think, then how could I ever.

Dallin Seely [01:38:51] I must not be worthy because I'm not getting good revelation.

John Dehlin [01:38:54] Yeah. Okay, that's one. That's one interpretation. You weren't worthy. Another is maybe I can't know God's will because maybe I just have emotions. And that's not good for kind of the epistemology that the Mormon Church teaches us. Right.

Dallin Seely [01:39:07] Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know a better word than mind for. To describe my state of mind during those months.

John Dehlin [01:39:17] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:39:19] But, yeah, that's what it was. But finally I asked Ashley to marry me. She's a kindergarten teacher, and I got her class involved. They each held up a. This video's on YouTube. They each held up a letter that spelled out, will you marry me? And it was fun.

John Dehlin [01:39:34] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:39:35] And so, yeah, we had the. The perfect Mormon short engagement. We were super. We really wanted to get married in the temple. We wanted to follow all the rules. We, we like. We were mostly joking about this, but as we got closer to our marriage and obviously we're, like, kissing and hanging out more often. We were like, we are staying worthy. We're following the law of chastity. We are including our parents on every text message. So we, like, made this group chat with. With, like, her mom or something. And we're like, we're gonna talk to each other, with you included from now on just so you can hold us accountable. And we just. I had so much fun with her that way. She's so funny and creative, and I just had. We had so much fun joking and. And laughing and. In the Mormon way.

John Dehlin [01:40:20] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:40:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:21] And still you felt like you were doing it wrong because.

Dallin Seely [01:40:24] Oh, my gosh. Yeah. In the back of my head, I'm always wondering, like, what if I was supposed to marry that other girl? Yeah. But, I mean, it slowly faded away.

John Dehlin [01:40:32] Well.

Dallin Seely [01:40:33] But it's lingering, scrupulous thoughts, you know, for a while now, there's just a

John Dehlin [01:40:38] lot of people, a lot of Mormons who. When life gets harder later with, like, a midlife crisis or just lots of kids. And it's very common to think back and think, whatever it was that I liked, whoever it was that I liked before I chose the person I chose, maybe I chose the wrong person instead of just thinking, no, no. Number one, you love is something you build over time. Number two, there are always going to be hard parts in a marriage, and that's the way it is with everyone. And pretty much everyone goes through a midlife crisis. Yeah. You don't just kind of proceed into marriage with that expectation. Instead, you get that thought, maybe I made the wrong choice.

Dallin Seely [01:41:24] I guess I could go into a little bit more. Why I thought the first girl was the one God wanted me to marry versus Ashley. And it was the most judgmental, petty, stupid stuff. Like, there was one time. Well, the first girl was a really good singer. She's musical. Ashley likes music, but she loves singing or anything. Ashley. I saw her walk out of Relief Society to talk to her dad on the phone instead of attend her classes. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, she's not attending all of her. It's so. I look back and roll my eyes so hard at little stuff like that now where I wonder, like, she's a jokester and sarcastic and is comfortable making light of some things where I was more serious and studious. And, like, no, we don't joke about stuff like that or play pranks on people like that. That's rude. And, man. Yeah. Little. Little things where I would think, maybe she's not valiant enough for me. How Presumptuous of me to think like I need to. Yeah. I guess I have worries in the back of my head. I want to marry somebody that's never going to leave the church. You know, so I'm just looking at every single little thing being such a judgmental, you know, person instead of just freaking relaxing and dating, getting to know somebody, seeing how compatible we are, blah, blah, blah. You know, all these worries in Dallin's head.

John Dehlin [01:42:38] Yeah. But looking back now, it's. It's not. You know, first of all, you were just trying to find someone to fit the mold you had been taught that I should find, that you should find. So just like you were trying to be not necessarily who you wanted to be, but who the church wanted you to be.

Dallin Seely [01:42:58] Oh, yeah. 100.

John Dehlin [01:42:59] Instead of trying to find the wife that you would love and have fun with and connect with and be best friends with, you were trying to find the wife that the church wanted you to have.

Dallin Seely [01:43:09] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:43:10] And so even though at the time you processed that as some moral failing, what you actually were doing is you're like, yeah, the church wants that for me. Someone who will potentially leave me if I lose my faith and make me feel like their love is conditional based on my commitment to the church.

Dallin Seely [01:43:32] Oh, man. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:33] Right. I'm gonna go with the girl who I just happen to is my best friend, and she's fun and I like her and we get along well. Which ended up being probably very fortuitous for you later.

Dallin Seely [01:43:47] 100.

John Dehlin [01:43:48] Right. Because you listen to yourself and married the person you wanted to marry.

Dallin Seely [01:43:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:53] Instead of listening to the church and marrying the person you felt like the church wanted you to marry.

Dallin Seely [01:43:58] I'm so glad. Yeah. So glad. Yeah. Ash. Yeah. Ashley. I've never felt like that once with her, that my love was conditional based on anything. Yeah. Besides loyalty to her.

John Dehlin [01:44:10] Like, you dodged a freaking bullet, bro.

Dallin Seely [01:44:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:13] I mean, marriages are always touch and go. Like, you know, But, I mean, for where you are now, you've. You dodged a bullet. Yeah. Right?

Dallin Seely [01:44:21] Yeah. I mean, who's to say? But. Yeah, I think I made the right choice.

John Dehlin [01:44:24] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:44:26] Yeah. So, man, I guess the next step in our story is when Ashley goes through the temple. Oh, my gosh. Ashley. So getting to know her more and more. She is the most authentic, integrated person that I had ever met. She has no problem saying if she doesn't like something, she doesn't have a problem complaining about something, she doesn't have a problem saying she doesn't want to go do that if she doesn't want to do it. She doesn't have a problem saying she wants to do something. She wants to do something. It was so refreshing for me. Unpretentious is a word that I used to describe her a lot. Just somebody that knows what she likes. So funny and creative and also really just wants to be a good girl. Little did I know her grandpa's a patriarch, her dad's in the Stake Presidency. All these things that, you know, if I didn't even know about, you know, like she's a solid Mormon girl going to BYU and Yeah. So. But she starts to express some worries a little bit as she goes to learn a little bit more about the temple. Learns about. She was studying one day, oh, nevermind. This is. I'm getting off track. So let's talk about actually preparing to go through the temple. She's going to temple prep class, learning about blah, blah, blah. Obviously nothing that's actually preparing you to go in the temple. And she goes in, I go in with her. We have a pretty okay experience, I thought. But then afterwards she was so stressed, stressed out of her mind. We were in like, it was a few days before we got married. So her family's in town, her family's from Georgia. And we were like hanging out in the hot tub and she would just go under water and just hold her breath for a long period of time. And she's just come up after a while and be like, I just feel more comfortable down there holding my breath, can't think my own thoughts. And she eventually I was like, what? What is it about the temple that scared you so much? She was like, I never realized I had to covenant to obey you after I get married. Oh, like, what is all that about? I thought God loved me and trusted me to make my own decisions. All this. I'm a beloved daughter, Heavenly Father who loves me and I love him and stuff I heard in young women's growing up, all of a sudden when I go through the temple, I covenant to obey you. And I'm just a queen and priestess unto you as you're a king unto God. And that was. That stressed her out a lot and how we were separated in the temple, not even sitting next to each other, veiling her face, you know, covering her face when you pray. And, and this is stuff that has

John Dehlin [01:46:49] been taken out of the temple since because of Internet activism and progressive Mormon feminists complaining and so many young women leaving the church. But, but yeah, just a few years ago and for over a century and a half, a young Mormon woman would covenant to obey or hearken to her husband in the temple while her husband would have covenanted to obey God.

Dallin Seely [01:47:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:18] Mormon. A young Mormon woman would have veiled her face in the temple where the man wouldn't.

Dallin Seely [01:47:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:23] And. And that. That was a big problem for people who. Well, you could say feminists. And if that word turns you off. Women are men who valued equality in marriage.

Dallin Seely [01:47:35] That word always turned Ashley off. She was taught that feminists. Feminism was bad.

John Dehlin [01:47:38] And that, yeah, it's like, I believe men and women should be equal, but feminism's bad. Yeah. When that's the definition of feminism. Yeah. Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:47:48] So.

John Dehlin [01:47:48] But she's having. She's having a feminist awakening because of her Mormon.

Dallin Seely [01:47:52] She always believed that men and women are equal, and she didn't want to lose her. She's like, I thought God valued me as a woman and trusted me and all this type of stuff. And I'm like, look, it's symbolic. It's symbolic of Christ in the church, and it's just symbolism. It's nothing you got to worry about. And I would just try to downplay it instead of. I didn't know how to validate somebody's concerns. I'm like, look at it this way. You're seeing it wrong. And, oh, man, that started an unhealthy pattern in our marriage for a while right there with the witch.

John Dehlin [01:48:23] Just kind of Mormon mansplaining. Right. Trying to explain. Explain to her why she shouldn't be bothered by the patriarchy. Right.

Dallin Seely [01:48:30] Yep. Yeah, don't be bothered by that. It's just symbolic and stuff. I didn't really know much about it either. So that led to us studying what the patriarchal order is a little bit, which is fun rabbit hole to dive down. She found this talk on lds.org about the patriarchal order and how it doesn't make sense to have two CEOs of a company. And obviously men and women are equal, but there has to be somebody to make decisions or else nothing would get done, blah, blah, blah. And she. That stressed her out bad. We would read the temple or family proclamation to the world where it says, men and women are equal partners, but by divine design, the man presides in the home. And we were like, how do you reconcile these two things? That makes no sense. Doesn't make any sense at all. And we would just. We bought this book, Sacred Symbols by Alonzo Gaskell, and we read the whole thing and learned about a ton of symbolism that. That quailed, you know, urgent worries for quite a while. Just brushing it Aside with everything symbolic, there's probably an understanding for this that we don't know. Symbolism.

John Dehlin [01:49:39] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's. And that's all before you're actually married or.

Dallin Seely [01:49:45] That was right before. Yeah, we got married. Slash into the beginning of our marriage. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:49] Right there. Well, that's a. That's a shaky foundation for a marriage.

Dallin Seely [01:49:54] I know. I'm like all of a sudden, oh, no, she's not. The spirit isn't confirming to her that everything is hunky dory and there's no problems.

John Dehlin [01:50:01] Like, the patriarch isn't awesome. Like, do your job, Holy Ghost.

Dallin Seely [01:50:06] Oh, yeah, yeah. For real. Like, I'm all wondering why the Holy Ghost is doing his job. Yeah. So that was awesome to start off with and. But we just carry on.

John Dehlin [01:50:18] But you didn't dump her.

Dallin Seely [01:50:19] No, because I was just like, we're in this, baby, let's do this.

John Dehlin [01:50:26] Maybe you loved her or liked.

Dallin Seely [01:50:27] Well, I knew I loved her. Yeah. And really liked her.

John Dehlin [01:50:30] Yeah, yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:50:31] And I was committed and. Yeah. Okay. No.

John Dehlin [01:50:37] All right.

Dallin Seely [01:50:38] So I had already disobeyed God by breaking up with the first girl. So I'm like, let's. Let's burn it down together, baby.

John Dehlin [01:50:44] Oh, man.

Dallin Seely [01:50:45] I guess. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:50:46] That's interesting.

Dallin Seely [01:50:47] Probably. Probably not so explicit like that. But yeah, I was just still committed and moved forward and I trusted in God that we would figure it out and learn together, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:50:58] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:50:59] So newly married life, super poor, transition, transferred to the University of Utah. Just blissful for the most part. Living in student housing, like old cinder block student housing at the University of Utah with like built in drawers and is freezing or super hot and. Yeah. Fun, fun stuff. I remember studying scriptures together every night because I was taught on my mission that there's my mission. Presidents read scripture together every day. And that's what they attributed to being able to work through any problem they ever had. Reading five pages a day of the Book of Mormon together, they'll make sure nothing bad, nothing will happen.

John Dehlin [01:51:36] It's like spiritual insurance. Right. Read your script Scriptures. How long?

Dallin Seely [01:51:39] Five pages a day.

John Dehlin [01:51:40] Five pages a day? That's all?

Dallin Seely [01:51:42] Yeah, that's it. For only five pages a day, you can have a solid marriage. Yeah. So. And I would get stressed. I would actually get frustrated with her if she would fall asleep while we were reading. And it was very much holier than now. I look back and want to barf at my attitude. Such a simple thing. She's tired, she's working all day. She's a kindergarten teacher. She's paying for me to go to school. And I'm getting frustrated. Her that she falls asleep after stressing about her kindergarten students studying for the next day. We go out or whatever, go to the gym. She falls asleep while we're on, like, page four of this of the Book of Mormon, which isn't super boring.

Early Married Life and Starting a Family

John Dehlin [01:52:20] Chloroform and print, meaning it puts you. Literally put you to sleep. Right?

Dallin Seely [01:52:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:24] So. But. But to just say you kind of. I would say you come by it honestly because there's this idea with the. With Mormon patriarchy, with the priesthood that, okay, both. Both need to be spiritual, but the man kind of what it leads.

Dallin Seely [01:52:41] Leads out is the presiding priesthood authority in the home.

John Dehlin [01:52:45] Right.

Dallin Seely [01:52:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:45] So you're kind of doing your job

Dallin Seely [01:52:47] and it's my fault if the family falls away, basically.

John Dehlin [01:52:50] So you got, you know.

Dallin Seely [01:52:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:52] So Ashley step up.

Dallin Seely [01:52:53] I'm not gonna be like my friends, my friend for me of why in her family, their dad let them fall away from the church.

John Dehlin [01:52:59] Not gonna be me. So you were kind of, again, doing what the church taught you to do. Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:53:06] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:53:06] How was that for your marriage?

Dallin Seely [01:53:07] No, it was great for her. Oh, yeah. We still tried to read often and she would get mad when I would, like, get mad at her for falling asleep. And I'm just like, I just want to be a good boy and do what we're supposed to do. And. Yeah. Anyways, it wasn't a major theme. I mean, maybe kind of. But yeah, we would progress along. We bought a DSLR Canon T5i because we wanted to take photos.

John Dehlin [01:53:34] That's a fancy camera.

Dallin Seely [01:53:36] That's a pretty good first camera. Yeah, it's like a beginner dslr. And we were like, well, we got to pay this off somehow. And so maybe we should, like, start doing weddings or something. And that's how we got into wedding videos.

John Dehlin [01:53:48] Why'd you get the camera?

Dallin Seely [01:53:50] We just wanted to capture family moments and have a solid camera to, you know, and. But from the very beginning, we were like, very financially. Actually listen to Dave Ramsey, like, religiously and always have a savings fund for this or that. And if we're going to buy something big like a camera, we got to pay it off. So we started. We like, put out an ad on KSL Classifieds for our first that we do weddings. Although we'd never done a wedding. We just had taken some photos of friends and put them up there and started doing weddings. And that was. That was kind of fun while we're going to school. And that was like Our side hustle that we worked on building up together, and our website's still up. Ashleydellenfilms.com we don't do weddings together, but we built it up to be doing, like, 25, 30 weddings a year. It was pretty awesome.

John Dehlin [01:54:33] Yeah, that's. That's some good side income.

Dallin Seely [01:54:35] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:37] Lots of marriages happening in Utah. Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:54:39] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:40] Lots of weddings. Yep.

Dallin Seely [01:54:41] Yeah. They don't pay a lot for photography, but lots of weddings happening, so balance out a little bit, maybe.

John Dehlin [01:54:46] Yeah, yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:54:48] So that was a fun thing that we got involved in photography, and we had a lot of fun doing it together. We got to where I. We bought another camera, and I would do video while she did photo. And that was kind of a selling point that we offered both for a little cheaper than if you booked them separately with somebody else. So we got into wedding photos and videos, doing that together, and that was something we really enjoyed doing together.

John Dehlin [01:55:09] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:55:09] Yeah, that was fun.

John Dehlin [01:55:11] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:55:11] And then I remember this conversation where we talk about kids, and we both knew that we should have kids. And it was. It was overarching should for me. I hadn't had much experience with kids, but I knew that I was supposed to have kids. And so I was like, I guess we should probably have. I know. Dalliny jokes said that Satan will tempt us to put off having kids and have less kids than you're able to. And I. I don't want Satan to tempt me. So we're gonna have kids early, man. Yeah, let's have. Let's start having kids. And Ashley was like, I don't know if I'm ready. All this in my head. It's no big deal. I get to still go to work, do whatever I want. And Ashley's primarily responsible for the nurturing of her children. I don't know where I've heard that.

John Dehlin [01:55:52] You're referring to the proclamation.

Dallin Seely [01:55:53] Yeah, yeah. Family frock. Read it all over. It's on our wall.

John Dehlin [01:55:56] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:55:56] So, yeah, I'm like, let's start having kids. And that's your role as the woman to raise the kids. And I still get to, you know, live my life and stuff. So naive. And I just wanted to start the next. Always moving on to the next step, you know?

John Dehlin [01:56:11] And this is so, like, we don't. We need to pause and just pause at these little points, you know, because it's kind of right now, man to man. And I remember that moment where I'm like, margie. Margi's like, well, I kind of want to go to Grad school. And I'm like, sorry.

Dallin Seely [01:56:27] Oh, man.

John Dehlin [01:56:27] Like, you know, we kind of got to start having kids. And. And then, you know, after a few kids, Margi's like, I think I may be done. And I'm like, no, we're kind of gonna have four. And it sounds horrible to say it that way. And, I mean, if she had really pushed back, I'm. I'm. You know, I don't know. I wouldn't have forced her. But at the same time, within the Mormon realm, there really isn't. It's really not an option for the woman to say, I want to go to grad school. I want to have a career. I want to put off having kids. Is it?

Dallin Seely [01:57:04] No. I mean, all those old Mormon movies of. Of kind of downplaying the mom going out and working outside the home, and I mean, actual quotes from prophets, a general conference saying, the woman's place is in the home.

John Dehlin [01:57:15] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:57:16] And it's not to be meddling with man's realm of work and stuff.

John Dehlin [01:57:20] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:57:21] Those are all old quotes, but that's in the teachings.

John Dehlin [01:57:24] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:57:25] And. Yeah. Still in the culture, you know, when I was there. So. Yeah. Kind of that attitude of, we need to start having kids.

John Dehlin [01:57:33] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:57:34] I think probably six or something. And she was like, you want six kids? That was. Stressed her out a lot. And I'm like, I don't know. Yeah, why not? I want to prove to God that I'm gonna have as many kids as we're able. Like, just so faithful. Let's do this. Like, God's gonna provide a way and type stuff. And so we got pregnant, like, one year into our marriage, a little after one year into our marriage, and, yeah, I had our son.

John Dehlin [01:58:02] She was. She was.

Dallin Seely [01:58:02] How old she was? She's like.

John Dehlin [01:58:05] She would have been older than. Probably average.

Dallin Seely [01:58:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she had already graduated and. And gotten her master's in teaching.

John Dehlin [01:58:14] Okay.

Dallin Seely [01:58:14] So she was. I was 22, and she was 23 or 24.

John Dehlin [01:58:20] Okay.

Dallin Seely [01:58:20] She's a little older than me, which is.

John Dehlin [01:58:22] The rest of the world is still kind of young.

Dallin Seely [01:58:23] Very young.

John Dehlin [01:58:24] But, you know, Margi was 22. Cara Burrell was, like, 19, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:58:30] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:58:31] Yeah, yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:58:33] So we went on, like, a little baby moon right before the baby was born up to Jackson Hole.

John Dehlin [01:58:38] And I've never heard that term before.

Dallin Seely [01:58:39] A baby moon. Go on a little trip before your baby's born. Yeah. And then we had George. He's our. He's our son. And that was a very surreal experience for me. It was an emergency C section and a very long labor really hard. And then all of a sudden, like 30 hours later, I'm holding George in my arms and Ashley's dead asleep, you know, so tired. And I'm just feeding George a little bottle. It was a very special moment I'll never forget. Like, wow, I'm a dad.

John Dehlin [01:59:12] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:59:13] That's cool.

John Dehlin [01:59:14] Because now you had lost your dad and now you're having a kid. I mean, it's special without that. I don't know. I shouldn't have projected that in, I guess.

Dallin Seely [01:59:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:26] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:59:27] To a degree. Yeah. Just. Just like kind of taking it all in that I'm a father now. Doing what? As Dallin Taking it in. Also feeling proud that I'm doing what I'm supposed to do.

John Dehlin [01:59:38] Yeah, right. Yeah.

Dallin Seely [01:59:42] Yep. And then I'm in for the biggest awakening of my entire life. Just how hard parenthood is. Just thinking, God, I was so naive and just that Ashley does all the kids stuff and I come and go as I please was my mindset, basically. And just not realizing how much work it is. And it was really hard for me. Still is sometimes, but it was definitely a rude awakening for me. I was so unprepared, so unprepared to be a dad and have kids. And that was very, very eye opening to me. And it. And it began a pretty hard time of me and Ashley's relationship.

John Dehlin [02:00:23] What was so hard about being a dad for you?

Dallin Seely [02:00:26] I guess not realizing just how hard it was to be woken up multiple times a night are all of a sudden how much less free time we would have the constant responsibility of, you know, I got to take care of the kid. What if we want to drive somewhere? Driving with kids is never, you know, it's not very fun with the kids screaming in the backseat. So driving a long distance becomes more stressful. The constant weight of responsibility on your shoulders for this tiny human, you know, and that was a very rude awakening for me. I was super unprepared for that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:58] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:00:59] And. But we just. Yeah. Move forward. I was working at a company called Plural Site.

John Dehlin [02:01:05] That's where Samantha Shelley used to work.

Dallin Seely [02:01:07] Oh, I know. That name sounds familiar.

John Dehlin [02:01:09] Yeah, she's from Zelf on the Shelf.

Dallin Seely [02:01:12] Oh, cool.

John Dehlin [02:01:13] Yeah. Huh.

Dallin Seely [02:01:15] Yeah. I wonder if I was there at the same time. Yeah. Sweet. I love that company. That was really fun. And I was. I would go to work there and then come home and Newborn life with a young couple and a newborn and chugging right along, still doing weddings. But now all of a sudden, weddings are More stressful because I'm either doing photo or video and it's usually by myself. Now Ashley doesn't get to come anymore unless we found a babysitter, but it's, you know, that's stressful. You can't leave for very long when you're nursing. And so that all of a sudden one of our biggest things that we did together was no longer a thing and, and I would just do weddings by myself. So I'm gone all the day during the week and then now weekends for weddings because they're usually on the weekends. And that's bringing a lot of stress on Ashley. She quit her job as a, as a kindergarten teacher. She's home full time and starting to, you know, postpartum things setting in, realizing like, wow, I'm just here now doing what I'm supposed to be doing, but I'm just here alone at home. And a lot of her friends and all of her family, or most of her like, at least immediate family, they're all out of state in Georgia or other places, and she's feeling very alone. And it was really hard for me. I was like, I thought this was all supposed to work out and you're supposed to be super fulfilled in your role as primarily nurturing the children. And I'm out doing my job. I love my job. Why are you so. Why is it so hard for you? Yeah, so I was very naive and, and rude to, to her a lot.

John Dehlin [02:02:51] But that's very important, right?

Dallin Seely [02:02:52] I. I guess I don't know if you can totally put it all in the church, but it definitely, definitely portion of it. I remember growing up and like Thanksgiving, the, the women are the ones in the kitchen washing dishes and stuff and while all the guys are sitting around afterwards talking. And I, I wasn't able to see my mom and dad interact a lot and how their marriage played out on the day to day just. I was so young when my dad died. I just didn't have a lot of examples of what it looked like, honestly.

John Dehlin [02:03:21] Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. No, that was real for me. I mean, you, some people, men or women, would love to stay home with kids. That's just how they're wired. There's a lot of people that love gaining skills, gaining experience, traveling the world, getting recognition and making new friends at work and advancing and building your career and your earning potential and your opportunities. Whereas Mormon women or others who are taught that there's kind of only one thing you can do, which is to be a stay at home parent.

Dallin Seely [02:04:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:04] I mean, if it. That's great if that's what you are really wired to do. But a lot of people are wired to do the other stuff. And for them, staying home can be incredibly tedious and sad and unfulfilling.

Dallin Seely [02:04:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:17] And there's nothing wrong with that. That's actually very normal.

Dallin Seely [02:04:20] Yep. I'd say I'm more on that side of things.

John Dehlin [02:04:22] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:04:22] And Ashley is very fulfilled and happy being a mom also. It's like a lot of hard times being, being at home. But she felt a desire to be doing more, you know, also not having a lot of family and friends around. And there's this tug of Dallin leaving, going and doing what he likes to do every day, and Ashley just being at home. And this is what leads to ashley learning about YouTube. And like, we met a friend at Pluralsight who introduced us to a friend who does it full time. And he was like. So we sat down with him, like, look, we're wedding videographers. We know cameras. And teach us about what you do. Like, you're able to do this full time. YouTubing. Like, what do you even film? How do you. And he sat down with us for like an hour and explained everything. He showed us a ridiculous amount of money he was making on YouTube. And it was so eye opening to me. And we were like, huh, let's try it. And Ashley was gung ho, 100% committed to do this. And I was like, yeah, let's do this. So we started making these fun little family videos of going on hikes with our son George. We would go out to lunch, try to make some food at home, do funny, just random. We call it the magic of ordinary days. Like, it's nothing big, Huge. We don't have these giant skills or not teaching anything. We're not super inspirational. Just every day, kind of a day in life type content. Having fun, relating to each other, talking about money problems, whatever. And we remember, like, eventually our videos getting 50 views. Like 100 views. Like, wow, this video got 100 views. That's pretty awesome. And we start.

Launching a YouTube Channel as Mormon Influencers

John Dehlin [02:05:58] What year do you. What year did you start your channel?

Dallin Seely [02:06:00] 2015. Ish. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:05] Okay.

Dallin Seely [02:06:05] Yeah. 2015 or 2016.

John Dehlin [02:06:07] So seven or eight years ago. Okay, yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:06:10] Started a YouTube channel called the Dashleys. We had a friend who said Dallin plus Ashley equals Dashley. She wrote, like, wrote it for a little sign that we had about our wedding. Dashley. So we were like, what should we call ourselves? What should our YouTube name be? We just call it the Dashleys. And it Started out for brides to be able to get to know us a little better. So it feel more comfortable with us on their wedding day, being in with them and their friends and family, getting ready for their wedding, you know, and just little YouTube videos like that. But eventually we realized, like, wow, there's people doing this full time. We could just be making fun content and see if we could grow this. And so for years, we put out four or five YouTube videos a week, and it was. It was yielding like pennies, you know, it became very, very stressful. It was something that I got pretty disenchanted with after a while, and I was ready to give up once or twice.

John Dehlin [02:07:01] You're still a plural site at this point?

Dallin Seely [02:07:03] Yeah. Yep. I worked at pluralsight for like three years and yeah, three or four years. And Ashley was the one that was like, no, let's keep going. Let's keep doing this. Gary Vaynerchuk says we should be posting on Face do what other people aren't doing. Maybe we should be posting full vlogs to Facebook when most other YouTubers are just posting a YouTube link to Facebook and sending them over to YouTube. And so we started uploading full videos to Facebook. And I guess our big break for social media was when Facebook, we had one video go viral. It was a video where we went to Costco. We were like, what should we do? We got to put out another video tomorrow. And we have no ideas. And we're stressing about this. And we were like, let's just go to Costco and film some jokes. Like, we have 5 million Costco jokes in our back pocket. We go there all the time. Let's go and put together a little list of things. And so we went to Costco. We started out in the car and we're like, all right, we're just gonna spend like a hundred bucks. No more. Like everybody says when they go into Costco. And then we walk in and I get a shot of me, like, flashing my Costco membership card like I'm some big shot walking in. And then we go around making these jokes like, do we need any more 6 packs of 12 packs of hot dog buns? Or do we need, like, do we need another gallon of ranch dressing or stuff like this? How many, like, how many sticks of butter do we have left? And it was a little three minute video. And I woke up the next morning and I saw that this page called the Costco Bear shared it and it went viral on Facebook. And all of a sudden our little Facebook page has, like, 13,000 followers. And I was like, whoa, this is kind of cool. And a few months later, go by and Facebook invites us to be part of their Launchpad program, where they're trying to compete with YouTube and get more video content and creators putting stuff on Facebook. And they invited us to be on Facebook and to boost our content and kind of push our. Our videos to what would be our audience and grow our audience for us. And that was like our big lucky break. And a few months later, I quit pluralsight and we're creating content full time.

John Dehlin [02:09:09] So was your Facebook presence bigger than your YouTube presence?

Dallin Seely [02:09:13] Yeah, well, it quickly became that way.

John Dehlin [02:09:16] Okay.

Dallin Seely [02:09:17] We jumped from 13 to like 20,000 pretty fast. And then within the Launchpad program that they had going for creators that they invited was six months long. By the end of the six months, our Facebook page had like 300,000.

John Dehlin [02:09:29] Whoa.

Dallin Seely [02:09:30] Followers. Yeah. And YouTube was still chugging right along. I don't know what. But it's grown from 300,000 followers now to like 1.1. 1.2 million on.

John Dehlin [02:09:39] So your Facebook's at 1.2?

Dallin Seely [02:09:41] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Today.

John Dehlin [02:09:43] And YouTube's at 300.

Dallin Seely [02:09:44] It's coming up on 200,000 on YouTube.

John Dehlin [02:09:46] Okay. Yeah, yeah. So you're really in on Facebook.

Dallin Seely [02:09:49] Yeah, that's like our bread and butter Facebook.

John Dehlin [02:09:51] We're just super proud. We reached a hundred thousand on YouTube just, just recently. For us, that's a big deal.

Dallin Seely [02:09:57] Yeah. Do they still send out plaques?

John Dehlin [02:09:59] Yeah, yeah, I just ordered my plaque.

Dallin Seely [02:10:00] Nice.

John Dehlin [02:10:01] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:10:01] Yeah, that's good.

John Dehlin [02:10:02] Does Facebook send out plaques?

Dallin Seely [02:10:03] No, I don't do anything like that. They should.

John Dehlin [02:10:06] Yeah. And our Facebook's. I don't know, 50 or 60. So we're still. I mean, I guess that's good.

Dallin Seely [02:10:11] Yeah, that's great. Well, it's just now followers count. Doesn't even matter. Your content could see. 5 people could see it or 5 million people can see it.

John Dehlin [02:10:20] Oh, we have shorts that reach millions

Dallin Seely [02:10:22] if your follower number matters so little now.

John Dehlin [02:10:25] Oh, wow. Okay.

Dallin Seely [02:10:26] Just because even though they're all following you, it doesn't mean they're going to see your stuff.

John Dehlin [02:10:30] Right?

Dallin Seely [02:10:30] It's all up to the algorithm more than ever.

John Dehlin [02:10:32] Okay.

Dallin Seely [02:10:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:34] Interesting. So you quit your job. Not a lot of people can quit their job to do social media.

Dallin Seely [02:10:38] Yeah, yeah, it was. It was very weird. I, like, cried that day for unknown reason. Reasons at the time, I guess I was afraid. Losing health insurance, all these things that brought a lot of security to me, knowing that I'm providing for my family in a traditional way. Going to my 9 to 5 type thing. Now all of a sudden I'm on my own. And I was not very entrepreneurial minded. I was in the total mindset of I will do whatever the church tells me to do.

John Dehlin [02:11:02] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:11:02] And I had my good job after, after graduating college like a good boy does. And now we're shaking the boat. What is this, Ashley?

John Dehlin [02:11:11] It's not necessarily in the Mormon, you know, plan of, of happiness to become social media stars. Even though there's a, a crud ton of Mormon families doing YouTube and Facebook. Right. Aren't there a lot of Mormon influencers?

Dallin Seely [02:11:28] Yeah, I guess there are.

John Dehlin [02:11:30] Yeah. Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:11:31] It's a kind of a niche. Yeah, we never really got in with that niche, but a little bit.

John Dehlin [02:11:35] You're supposed to have been a dentist, you know.

Dallin Seely [02:11:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we went the social media route. It's still, I still don't know how to describe what I do for a living. It's weird.

John Dehlin [02:11:45] But you make videos with your kids. Yeah, you do.

Dallin Seely [02:11:48] It's like videos of what? I don't know, life. Yeah, but that's what we do. And for whatever reason, people still follow us and like our stuff and we make money through ads and brand sponsoring our videos. And so we're still doing today. Yeah, but it's been a wild ride. One that has stressed me out a lot and other times brought me tons of happiness and fulfillment.

John Dehlin [02:12:11] So. So the Mormon angle of this, are you thinking is the back of your mind, like, I could be a missionary or like, will this help cause us to lose our faith? Like, what's going through your mind as you make this transition from a Mormon perspective?

Dallin Seely [02:12:25] My patriarchal blessing says that from my mission onward, I will never be out of the service of the Lord. And the Lord needs teachers, witnesses, and people to testify. And my name will go throughout the whole world as a witness of Jesus Christ. So I'm like, I think that this is my patriarchal blessing coming true and my name is going throughout the whole world. I'm not really talking about Jesus at all, but maybe the way that I am living will rub off and people will know that we're Mormon. We say it like from time to time. We never like, emphasize it, but we had the missionaries over once on a blog and, and we talk about it from time to time on our podcast and we did like a ask us anything about why we're members of the church. And yeah, so people knew that we were Mormon just from our day to day content and we. But it was never a major theme But I guess that's one thing that I was wondering and running with that, that I was supposed to be a good example of a good Mormon. Through YouTube and Facebook.

John Dehlin [02:13:31] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:13:32] Yeah. So, yeah, I guess that was Mormon angle of how I kept going, feeling like this is what I. This is how I can affect the world somehow. If it's some kind of presumption, like I hate the term influencer, like, seems kind of presumptuous. I'm going to influence somebody today with my content, you know, hold my phone out and influence some people, you know. But I guess. I guess from a Mormon perspective. Yeah, I. I hoped that I would bring people to the church.

John Dehlin [02:13:57] Well, there's that Book of Mormon musical moment where. Where Elder Price sings, I'm going to be the Mormon who changed all of mankind.

Dallin Seely [02:14:04] My best friend.

John Dehlin [02:14:05] Yeah, exactly. Right. Like, that's certainly within a Mormon's worldview that maybe if there's righteous as Ammon or Lamoni or, you know, not Ammon or Sons of Mosiah or whatever, Sons of Helaman, that we can convert the world, you know? Right.

Dallin Seely [02:14:22] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:14:23] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:14:23] Yeah. And I think some people did join the church, Beard. They. They knew we were Mormons and they messed. They emailed us and said they joined the church. And so there's that.

John Dehlin [02:14:33] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:14:35] We've been able to bless other people's lives from saying, like, our videos have helped them not commit suicide or we just help them feel like they're not alone or they feel like that we're their friends. So that always made me feel good to know that even though I don't actually know him in person, that we're just putting out human content, everyday life human content that a lot of people out there are relating to and helping them not feel alone in whatever station they find themselves in their life. So that was cool. Feeling like I was, you know, doing some good in the world.

John Dehlin [02:15:03] Yeah, that way. Yeah. That feels good.

Dallin Seely [02:15:05] Yeah. Yeah, man. So I guess we could move into some psyche type stuff during this time and where I guess we reached a breaking point, I don't know.

Faith Crisis Begins for Dallin and Ashley

John Dehlin [02:15:20] So is this. Is this where kind of the faith, your faith journey starts to unravel for you or her or both? Is that next?

Dallin Seely [02:15:28] So we never. So I guess we're just all. We move to Daybreak and we get part of a real ward. Our first apartment we like it was a branch because they didn't want the apartments mingling with the neighborhood people in the houses. So we were a branch in Utah. We always thought that was kind of weird, like why don't we all just get to be part of the same ward family, whatever. I don't know. We finally moved to Daybreak, we're in a ward and I get my first calling as a Cub Scout leader every Wednesday night. Now I'm leaving Ashley home alone with the kids and she would complain sometimes in my mind like a, like you would hear apostles and prophets talk about their wives, how their wives never complained. And now here's Ashley complaining a little bit about she's having a really hard time this Wednesday and wants me to take one of the kids to Cub Scouts or tell them you can't go this week or something. She was having a hard time and I'm just like, I told her no, like this is your role and I'm going to fulfill my calling. Whatever the Lord, the Lord has called me to be a Cub Scout leader, you know, and, and so I would just go and be like, sorry, this is my calling right now and I'm going to do a good job at it type stuff. I can't imagine how Bishops wives feel. Yeah, you know, maybe some of them are super fulfilled and, and are blessed, but I'm. I have to imagine some others struggle with it more. Here I am just taking one hour a week with my little calling and it's like brings some stress to my marriage and yeah, it's little things like that creep in. I still have this whenever something wrong happens. I'm like, what did I do wrong? Whenever something bad goes on, like when a kid wakes up screaming at night when our daughter is throwing up sick again. After I just cleaned up puke at 1am, now it's 3am and there's more. Whatever. I'm like, what did I do wrong to deserve this? It was always me, me, me, something's wrong with me. If this is happening. And I just felt so unworthy all the time, basically is always a constant question in the back of my head if I am unworthy. Watching a mature rated show and there's a nude scene or whatever rack my brain for days.

John Dehlin [02:17:43] Oh, there's that no PG13 thing your dad said, right?

Dallin Seely [02:17:46] There's that. Yeah, I had since gotten over that. Me and Ashley like watching shows and stuff, but that still probably lingers a little bit. But I also just have the Mormon teaching, like don't watch any, you know, mature content. And if we're watching a show or whatever and there's a sex scene, like that would rack my brain for days afterwards and I would feel like crap and I would. Ashley's feeling no guilt whatsoever. She's like. She's like, oh, yeah, that was a good show. What? And I'm just like, how does. How does this not stress you out so much? Or blah, blah, blah. And it becomes a theme where I just. Oh, man, I just am overridden by guilt. So much of the time I was stressing about my worthiness. And there are other marital things, too, where Ashley and I are fighting about this and that and parents and kids. Nothing out of the ordinary, I don't imagine. And we eventually get to the point where we. We're like, we need to go to marriage counseling. We have to do this. We have to go to a therapist because you're fighting or what we're fighting about. I mean, we're working together full time, creating content parenting together. All this stuff. Eventually it just reaches. Reach a boiling point where we couldn't. You know, it's a lot for. Let alone business partners struggle, let alone, you know, married partners working together. It's a lot. It can be a lot. And we were like, we need to go get help and talk through some stuff. And we start going to. I was like, I'm going to go talk with one first. And I remember talking with him, and I was like. Talked with him for hours. He was very nice, very patient. And one of the things that I told him was, Ashley really doesn't like the patriarchal order. And he was like, he was a Mormon therapist. And he was like, that's just something that she's gonna have to get used to. She's gonna have to accept it. And I was like, says the other guy. Yes, that's the other guy. And I'm like, right, thank you. And we're sitting there validating each other about Ashley's feelings at home, crying, that's not the love.

John Dehlin [02:19:38] What's wrong with this woman?

Dallin Seely [02:19:39] Yeah. Like, she gets so stressed and I leave her with the kids and I go golfing. What is this?

John Dehlin [02:19:44] It's like, duh.

Dallin Seely [02:19:46] And I was so naive.

John Dehlin [02:19:48] And.

Dallin Seely [02:19:48] Yeah. And he's like, well, obviously the patriarchal order is more than that. We'd gone to temple a few more times, me. And actually throughout our marriage, and it always bothered her. And I never had any answers for her. And I remember, oh, man. So I go home feeling all like,

John Dehlin [02:20:05] guess what the therapist said?

Dallin Seely [02:20:07] Empowered. And I didn't. I don't think I told her right away. We joke about it now about how crappy that first therapist was. And we. I was like, I don't even know if I met with her, with that one, I found a different one. And we started meeting with a different one. This one was much better, much better. And within a few minutes, he turned to me and was like, we got to dive into your self esteem issues. After we just talked to him, give him some context about things. And I started talking about worthiness, about the church. I told him about my past with Mormons, with miracle forgiveness. And he was like, oh, look, there's a reason that the church doesn't give that book to missionaries anymore to read. Too many of them were going home. And I was like, wait, missionaries used to read that book? And he's like, yeah, no, that messaging is outdated. It's much better now. You should stop internalizing that so much. And I'm like, wait. Something a prophet said is no longer taught. And this is naive Dallin, thinking that mind of Lord, will, Lord, voice of the Lord actually means what it sounds like it means. And but whether by my own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. And so that makes zero sense to me how teachings of a former prophet, like, what are we doing reading scriptures? They're way older than Spencer W. Kimball. And so he tells me that just like, oh, like it's no big deal. And he's like, actually patriarchal stuff was another thing, the patriarchal order. And he's like, oh, look, family proclamation. That part. It was written by a bunch of, you know, the apostles. They're pretty old. It was a document for something to do in Hawaii. Like, that'll probably change eventually. The brethren are coming around. They're about 20 years behind the times. And he starts saying all this stuff to us. He's an active, believing member. Yeah, he's very come to find out, nuanced and progressive.

John Dehlin [02:21:50] And because family was literally written as a legal defense to justify the church's opposition to same sex marriage, it needed a doctrinal statement. Because the Book of Mormon Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, all silent on homosexuality. It needed a legal document to be able to point you to say, this is the religious basis for which we are opposing same sex marriage. That's literally so out of the battle for same sex marriage in Hawaii. That was the genesis of this document that now Mormons view as sacred and as scriptural. Yeah. So your therapist knew that history decided he was going to share it with you.

Dallin Seely [02:22:29] We had built up a lot of rapport with him. So validating, so kind. And so when he starts telling us this stuff, we believe him and we take what he's Saying seriously? And he's like. He's like, take gays, for example. We know that people are born gay. It's documented now in 20 years. I'm sure gays will be allowed to be married at least for time. Maybe not fraternity yet. And we're like, you're like, what? We're like, he's saying this. And like, are you for real? And I'm like, what about? Like, I had some questions about answers to gospel questions. I read some of that on my mission. And he's like. He's like, oh, yeah. Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine. That book, they made him go back and add that whole preface saying, these are his words. It's not actual Mormon doctrine. And I'm like, but he was like an apostle. Apostles are witnesses for the name of Jesus Christ. Like, isn't that revelation? And he's like, the church doesn't even really sell that book anymore. It's a lot outdated. And I'm just. I'm kind of sitting there dumbfounded, like, wow. As a totally believing member, knowing nothing about more controversial aspects of the church or like, the whole community that's talking about these things actively out there on the Internet and elsewhere, I'm just like, huh? And that is. I guess that is what really opened the door to me, starting to allow myself to say, maybe prophets make mistakes. Yeah, that was the biggest. And I have some notes in my journal from that time. I've gone back and read them a lot now. And it's me talking about how agency and God gives even prophets agency, because everybody needs to have their agency. This is their test in life, too. And maybe they can get something wrong. But in the grand scheme of things, the general direction of the church is good. And that's what my mission president said. And listen to what all of the prophets are saying, not just one in one particular sentence somewhere. And.

John Dehlin [02:24:23] Yeah, cognitive dissonance management.

Dallin Seely [02:24:26] Cognitive dissonance management. For sure. For sure. And so slowly, as he's talking with Ashley, more about patriarchal stuff and how outdated that is and how men and women are totally equal, how he doesn't wear his garments to bed if he doesn't want to. He's like, look, my home is a temple. I can take them off my garments in the temple. It's a sacred place. I wear them when I go out of my house. We're like, wait, you don't wear them 24 7. And. Oh, man. Other. And he's.

John Dehlin [02:24:51] This guy's a ringer, man. He's great.

Dallin Seely [02:24:53] He's Awesome. I would call him anytime and have a solid conversation with him. And as I meet with him more, we met with him for months. He would teach me things about worth and mental health and how it's not just happiness or sadness. Every emotion is, you know, there's no good or bad emotions. It's just emotions. Right. And just because a thought arrives in your head doesn't mean it's true or representative of who you are and doesn't mean it's not Satan and the Holy Ghost constantly battling in your head. It's literally just how brains work a little bit. And here is Innocent Dallin, 28, starting to learn about actual mental health for the first time.

John Dehlin [02:25:37] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:25:38] And I'm like, huh, that's really interesting. That's cool. And talking about worth and how it's. More I read this book called Odds are you're going to be exalted by Alonzo Gaskill and how Mormons have nothing to worry about. And like, we're good and God's more gracious than we tend to think he is. And there's this quote by Joseph Smith saying God is more gracious in his views and boundless in his mercies than we tend to think or believe or receive. And all this I start kind of. I get a lot more healthy mentally and then. But at the same time, I'm like, the thread starts unraveling with regards to profits, and I'm start starting to think about if they were wrong, then others could be wrong and what are prophets? Prophets back then wouldn't say that that were wrong. They all thought that it was right and it was doctrine. And so what if prophets today are wrong a little bit? And I start allowing myself to actually ask all these questions for the first time. And I mean, I'm not really having a lot of conversations with Ashley about this yet, but she's just happy that I'm starting to understand a little bit more of where she's coming from and learning how to validate her instead of tell her no. Look at it this way. Silly girl.

John Dehlin [02:26:49] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:26:51] I'm the priesthood holder.

John Dehlin [02:26:52] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:26:53] Yeah. So our marriage starts getting a little healthier. A little more like built on an actual foundation of understanding each other and validating things rather than telling each other that you're crazy. And I get a few years back, my older brother had left the church and I knew something about this thing called the CES letter. I knew it was something.

John Dehlin [02:27:16] Can I say one thing really quick? So what. What I'm observing is happening there is that from an Unofficial source from a non. From a. From an unorthodox, progressive mental health professional. You're for the first time being educated about another way to Mormon, which is instead of being super orthodox, super rigid, super harsh, which is what you would learn from the top church leadership, from the First Presidency, from the Quorum of the twelve, from Bednar, from Nelson, from Oaks, from all those dudes. Instead of learning the amped up, harsh, strict, intense, cold, I'd say harmful Mormonism. Yeah. You're learning. You're learning you can do it in a more chill way.

Dallin Seely [02:28:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:06] From a third party.

Dallin Seely [02:28:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:08] But what it's doing is it's. It's improving your mental health and it's improving your marriage. But it's not totally Mormon. Right. Or some would say it is Mormon. Patrick Mason would say, there's lots of ways to Mormon and this is just a different way to Mormon. But it's still Mormon.

Dallin Seely [02:28:25] It's not one anybody will tell you about. From the top.

John Dehlin [02:28:26] Right.

Dallin Seely [02:28:27] You have money off to discover on your own and stay quiet about.

John Dehlin [02:28:29] Yeah, yeah. But it's, it's what I did for, I don't know, 15 years. Like, a lot of people find out.

Dallin Seely [02:28:35] A lot of people do that.

John Dehlin [02:28:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:28:36] Therapist was doing it. Yeah, yeah. We. Yeah. I had no idea I grew up so orthodox. And it made so much sense. Like when Delaney jokes said, I see no difference between doctrine and policy from a church that claims divine revelation. That makes total sense.

John Dehlin [02:28:53] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:28:53] Because it's all policy from God. It's all doctrine from God. It's all from God.

John Dehlin [02:28:57] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:28:58] It makes total sense to me. So all this talk of past prophets maybe being a little wrong here and there, making mistakes did not resonate at all with what I learned about prophets, whether by my own voice, by the voice of my servants. It is the same type messaging, you know what I'm saying? So that is what finally allowed me to just be like, I just want to learn stuff. I remember saying to myself on my mission, I wonder if there's like, things out there that people are learning that's making them slower to join the church. Like, I would ask myself, why aren't people just flocking to the church? This is the last days we have prophets again on earth. Jesus is still speaking to man today. Why aren't people just running to that? Is there something out there that's keeping people from joining the church? And so I had heard of the CES letter. I had heard, like Ashley's uncle mention something about it. And a lot of members are Having issues with it. That's all that I had ever heard. The only thing I heard about you was one of my former mission friends. He wasn't a companion, but I knew him from the mission he had made. He had made a big post on Facebook about when you were excommunicated. And he was like, john de Lune is the only thing helping me stay in the church. But since he's excommunicated, I'm leaving too. Screw you. And I was like, oh, there goes another one. And I just dismissed him. That's it. And that's the only thing I ever knew about you. And I was just like, committed, faithful, down, change, whatever need to make this paradigm work. But I eventually reached the point where I'm curious, like, what is a CS letter? I don't know. I guess I can read it. I'm not afraid of the truth. I'm not afraid of learning stuff. I made it through my friend I thought I was going to marry, leaving the church and whatever. Made it through my mission. I heard everything on my mission. I thought, I can read this, see what people are having issues with. I'm open to the idea that prophets might have agency and get things wrong here and there. Let's read it. So I. One night, laying in bed after Ashley fell asleep, I just, like, searched. CES letter was brought to this website. I was like, what? I have to download a PDF. This is weird. Download PDF. And I just started reading. Starts with a quote, like, the truth is like a lion or all the. All the black and white quotes Gordon B. Hinckley saying it's either 100% true or the biggest fraud on earth type stuff. And like, oh, yeah, duh, I remember that quote. Love that quote. And then I start reading and like, point after point, I'm like, huh, didn't know that. Huh? Didn't know that. Oh, that makes sense. And I was up till 5 or 6am Like a deer in the headlights.

John Dehlin [02:31:27] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:31:28] And I remember laying there after I finished it, I, like, looked around the room and I was like, am I just a homo sapien on planet Earth right now? And it was like, versus what? Versus spirit temporarily inhabiting a body. This is my test to prove myself, child of God, worthy to. I had this very, very come to Dalin moment where I felt like I had jumped into my body and it was just me in a room in my house, looking around, total silence. It was very. A very surreal moment for me where I was like, what if. What if it's not true? I finally allowed myself to ask that. Got no sleep that night just because I was reading it. Maybe I slept an hour or something. I was afraid to tell Ashley that I read it. And I, all of a sudden was having all these thoughts in my head. And when I finally told her a few days later, she was like, awesome, let's talk about it. She's so great and so willing to just talk. And she never was, like, never made it conditional upon me being active or anything like that. And that was the healthiest. That started the healthiest time in mine and Ashley's marriage where we would actually. She was like, you have a concern that you want to talk to me about? That's awesome. Let me hear a concern that you have. There was a time early in our marriage where I was just like. She turned to me one time in the car, she was like, what are you passionate about? What do you want in life? Like, what gets you up in the morning? And I was just like, I don't know. And she just was raised so well, apparently, and very entrepreneurial minded, like, so with herself in tune. And she's just so happy that her husband wants to talk to her about a concern that he has about the church or anything. Like he's experiencing an emotion and wants to talk to me about it. That's great, because I would just hold things in, try to keep a happy face, stay positive about everything, and everything's going to work out and Jesus fixes everything and it's all going to be better someday. You know, mockers shall laugh, but they shall mourn. In the last days, righteous will be made. You know, like, all the messaging from Isaiah basically puts you in this mode where you endure whatever the heck now, and in the last days, you'll be exalted and happy and. And everything's good.

John Dehlin [02:33:56] What I'm interpreting from that is that you weren't living authentic to Dallin. You were living again, the life the church wanted you to live. And as a result, you were strict and harsh and obedient and intense, but you weren't super happy or fulfilled. So Ashley's looking at you going, dude, you're kind of a shell of a man. You're kind of a robot. Dink, dink, dink. Is there anybody in there?

Dallin Seely [02:34:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:24] Right?

Dallin Seely [02:34:25] Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so she was so happy that I wanted to come talk to her about something deep down in my heart.

John Dehlin [02:34:33] What? You have feelings.

Dallin Seely [02:34:34] What you have share me with me. Your feelings.

John Dehlin [02:34:37] You have weaknesses. Like.

Dallin Seely [02:34:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:38] It's called vulnerability, right? It's called emotional intimacy for the first time you and her. You and Ashley started developing emotional intimacy in a. In a deeper way?

Dallin Seely [02:34:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:34:50] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:34:52] And I would share my concerns. What do you feel about this? What do you think about this? And she would be like, yes, thank you. I've always had these concerns. Don't you notice when I leave the room, when Dallin H. Oak speaks or general conference, stuff like this, like, she

John Dehlin [02:35:05] had been keeping all that from you?

Dallin Seely [02:35:06] Well, she would say it. I mean, I guess more in the beginning of our marriage, she would say stuff like that. But I was always get defensive and try to mansplain her and say, look at it this way. Look at it this way. And basically invalidating her the way you see it is wrong. This is how you should see it. This is the first time we were like, over a major issue that we were able to talk to each other on, see eye to eye on and just validate each other's concerns. And I started to finally see where she was coming from with regards to her concerns with women in the church. She would always say things like. Like, why are there only men up there? When we blessed our kids, she hated that she couldn't stand in the circle type thing. And she. Obviously, she loved the blessing. She would cry. I think it's a beautiful thing. But she. She also, at the same time was like, why can't I stand in to bless our son? Why can't I stand to bless our daughter? And just all the. She felt very strongly how women are relegated to the background. And it was just something that always stuck with her and always bothered her. We would like, during this time, our kids are getting a little older, and we want to start doing family home evenings and teaching them the principles of the gospel. And it made us sick. Like our kids teaching, teaching. By now, George is four. James, our daughter is. Yeah, two or three. And we would do lessons on obedience and teach them about the church or start to. And I would just. I had read the CS letter. I have all these questions in my head. I would kind of sit back. Ashley would lead it a little bit, but she would eventually share with me that she was feeling hesitant too. And she eventually reached the point where she was like, I cannot teach my daughter this. I grew up feeling like I do not want my daughter. I want her to at least go through this life feeling like she is equal to everybody else, including men. And if in the next life, God really does like men more than women and want men to lead, and women are just the handmaidens to help out with stuff, then she can work it out then, and I'll take the blame for it. Maybe God will take James off the hook, but I don't want her to go through this life feeling that way. That's what Ashley would say.

John Dehlin [02:37:21] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:37:23] Yeah, that was pretty big. I have. I have the. I went through my journal and picked out a few snippets of the. The progression. The progression. I. I indicate downward, but I would say it's probably upward actually now. But this is. Let's see here. Where are we? February 18, 2020. There are a lot of things that God's hand doesn't directly influence. We have agency. February 27th. Positivity is best expressed after validation and processing. I talked with our therapist a lot about positivity, and he's like, dallin, you seem like you have a really hard time expressing negative emotions. Where does that come from? And I'm like, hello, where do you think it comes from? Like, toxic positivity is everywhere in the church. And I learned about how. How to validate somebody's emotions and. And positivity is best experienced after processing whatever it is, you know, and then you can feel good about it or whatever, or resolve to have a positive outlook on it. But first you got to process the crap. That was the first time I learned anything like that. Okay. April 28th. Focus on the Savior. Reread. Odds are you're going to be exalted. Forget whatever you learned from Bruce R. McConkey. That's April 28th. May 25th, 2020. I'm really struggling with church lately. So we had stopped going to church because of COVID during this. During this time. I do not believe polygamy was a commandment of God. Maybe Joseph thought it was. I do not believe God sent an angel with a flaming sword to threaten to kill Joseph. I can think of, like, a thousand other things God would have sent an angel to stop before. Stop happening on earth before that. And then I went on to say, well, God. Does God allow prophets to make mistakes sometimes? Does God allows prophets to struggle and learn like everybody else? And, like, does God allow prophets to lead the church astray for how long? Like, immediately? Or would God allow prophets to chill for 120 years before they realize maybe God loves black people just as much as white people? June 14th. Listen to Richard Bushman's interview with John Dehlin. It was very inspiring. John's testimony, or maybe I meant Richard's testimony that the church is good and the Book of Mormon and the church are right, but not necessarily true. And that his testimony complex. We'd been listening to a lot of Mormon stories at this point, and you, like, held our hand through this whole process and like, we can't thank you enough. So it just made us feel like. I had no idea all these podcasts are out there. Had no idea if we felt alone. I felt alone. And just hearing all these stories. Josh and Brooke Miller talking about their interview with Spencer Fluman, who just resigned

John Dehlin [02:40:02] from the Maxwell Institute, by the way.

Dallin Seely [02:40:04] Really?

John Dehlin [02:40:04] Yeah. Whoa. Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:40:06] Do you know why?

John Dehlin [02:40:08] Not yet.

Dallin Seely [02:40:08] Oh, man. Who else?

John Dehlin [02:40:11] Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

Dallin Seely [02:40:12] No, Chelsea Homer.

John Dehlin [02:40:15] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:40:15] Me and Ashley love Nick and Chelsea Homer. Ashley really loved. What's her name, Louis Akilian. Lindsay Hansen Park. We listen to all of your polygamy. Carolyn Pearson had a huge impact on us, for sure. Yeah, very. Just like feeling for the. Like that we're not alone, that we're not crazy, that other people are having the same thoughts we are. Basically. Where am I? Okay, a lot more paragraphs of next few months thinking about things. 10:20 or so. September 20, 2020. Well, Ash and I are officially non believers in Mormonism now. So, like, it was like eight months. Yeah. Of the. I mean, I still had a lot more to learn and process and decide my new worldview. I mean, that's what everybody goes through in real life. But that was. Yeah, that was the. That was the rabbit hole, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:41:12] Yeah. The. This idea of progressive Mormonism, number one, it's relatively new in terms of, like, it being a public conscious thing. I mean, there's probably always been, for a century or more, Mormons who quietly didn't believe or were more progressive or metaphorical, but they kind of kept it quiet.

Dallin Seely [02:41:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:35] So this idea of. Of progressive Mormonism being something, an identity you can publicly try on, learn about, and even assume, that's like our, you know, past 15, 10, 15 years. That's just when that possibility started really penetrating, beginning to penetrate Mormon consciousness. It's still something that most orthodox Mormons don't even know exists. And if they do, they're very skeptical of it and concerned about it. Rightly so. Because it's. It can be a slippery slope. And while there are still progressive Mormons in the church, by and large, as David Bachavoy once told me, progressive Mormonism is kind of a south place to land on your way out of the church.

Dallin Seely [02:42:22] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:42:23] Right.

Dallin Seely [02:42:24] Yeah. Man. We were so entrenched and we slowly became progressive. That was a short lived period. Very short lived. And yeah, on her way out, Ashley was slower to get out than me. She still has times where she's like, I don't know what I believe, but she's mostly like, resolve that this is not. There's a lot of things that are not right, you know, so.

John Dehlin [02:42:50] So that I want to call attention to that. Because you were the more dogmatic, orthodox, devout one. Yeah, she was the more flexible. Flexible one. She was less hardcore. You were more hardcore. But that's actually quite common where the more hardcore person, once they start to question, go way in the other direction and the more progressive person is able to kind of go slower for. For. Why is that?

Dallin Seely [02:43:18] I was in it because it was true.

John Dehlin [02:43:20] All or nothing, right?

Dallin Seely [02:43:21] All or nothing. Yeah. Doesn't matter if the community is great. Doesn't matter if.

John Dehlin [02:43:26] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:43:26] A lot of friends here. I'm here because this is Lord, what the Lord wants me to do. And I'm here because it's true. And this is. What else would I be doing on planet Earth while I'm here for 80 or 90 years? You know, like, this is the Lord's like, bringing. Bringing forth the second coming, and I have to be part of it. Or else. Or else, you know, Ashley.

John Dehlin [02:43:47] And that's true with the capital T, right? Capital T, true.

Dallin Seely [02:43:50] Capital T, true. Ashley.

John Dehlin [02:43:51] And so for you, it's either all. It's totally true with the capital T, or.

Dallin Seely [02:43:55] Or as Gordon B. Hinckley puts it, of a huge fraud, the greatest fraud

John Dehlin [02:44:01] ever perpetrated on mankind.

Dallin Seely [02:44:03] Yeah. Huh. And it makes me sad to say that thinking of all my family and active family and friends who are, you know, seemingly very fulfilled by it. Still.

John Dehlin [02:44:12] That's not our words. That's Gordon Meheng's words. No, seriously.

Dallin Seely [02:44:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:16] Yeah. And.

Dallin Seely [02:44:17] But I guess in their minds, that's how I. I see it. But in reality, it's somewhere in between for me. It's one of many religions that a lot of people are finding meaningful film in. Community and hope in.

John Dehlin [02:44:29] Yeah. You know, but for Ashley, it wasn't as binary.

Dallin Seely [02:44:32] No. Hers. Her family's all Mormon. Her friends are Mormon. The community is so great. She feels loved. She feels accepted. She likes the idea of eternal families and. And all that, you know.

John Dehlin [02:44:45] Yeah. Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:44:47] According to Dr. Christian, that's typical of, you know, men and women seeing it. Men are more in the. For the. The veracity aspect and women and more for the utility aspects.

John Dehlin [02:44:57] Oh, you're referring to the Dave Christian episode of Mormon stories. Utility versus.

Dallin Seely [02:45:01] I actually met with David Christian for like a.

John Dehlin [02:45:04] Were you in Logan or did you

Dallin Seely [02:45:05] do it over Skype.

John Dehlin [02:45:06] Yeah, he's great. Awesome shout out to Dave.

Dallin Seely [02:45:08] So helpful.

John Dehlin [02:45:09] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:45:09] Love Dave. Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. Yeah. I had to move on from our progressive therapist after a certain point and talk with Dave.

Leaving the Church and Rebuilding Together

John Dehlin [02:45:19] That didn't work for you after a while?

Dallin Seely [02:45:21] Well, we. We eventually just, you know, said, thank you for where you got us. We're going to take it from here on around and. But I didn't.

John Dehlin [02:45:28] After what wasn't working for you with progressive Mormonism, why didn't that become your destination?

Dallin Seely [02:45:33] It just didn't make sense to me. From everything I'd learned too much and I thought about it too much for it to be able to, like. I guess truth is a higher value to me than being in with the Mormon community. I guess boils down to that. Some people, you know, don't care. Like one of our neighbors, one of our old neighbors said, Joseph Smith, hate the guy. I just need to go to church to have a community and to have some hope that there's something after I die. And so I was like, whoa, you. You believe that? But yeah, that's where, gosh, I'm guessing way more people are there than I originally ever thought in my life, where they are making it work for them and setting aside they're cafeteria Mormons. But that just didn't work for me. I had heard too much. I had heard the prophets literally say, there's no such thing as cafeteria Mormonism. Don't do that.

John Dehlin [02:46:24] Right.

Dallin Seely [02:46:24] I'd listen to all the top leaders for too long. Took them too seriously, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:46:28] Yeah. Yeah. Because a progressive Mormon would be like, oh, they'll pay attention to those guys. That's what they think. And bless their little hearts.

Dallin Seely [02:46:36] Bless their hearts. Yeah. It just didn't work for me. Like, if it's not true, then I'm not going to base my life off of something that's not true. That's what I had to boil it down to. Yeah. Especially as our channel grows and stuff. Like, it's a lot of money to be saying goodbye to every month. And I remember the last time I paid tithing. Click submit on LDS.org and see the little picture of a hand handing a slip to another hand.

John Dehlin [02:47:06] You guys decided to resign?

Dallin Seely [02:47:08] Well, we haven't resigned, but I just remember my last time.

John Dehlin [02:47:11] Yeah. During tithing, I was like, oh, the tithing not.

Dallin Seely [02:47:14] It was like in May of 2020. I was like, lord, I'm just doing this as a sign to you that I want to do what's right, hit submit, close my eyes, you know, and yeah. But stop paying since then.

John Dehlin [02:47:30] Yeah,

Dallin Seely [02:47:32] that was kind of a big deal.

John Dehlin [02:47:34] Yeah. I bet the church lost a lot of people during COVID Right?

Dallin Seely [02:47:37] According to ex Mormon subreddit it seems like there are more. So many stories like that. Covid was a bad era for the church and every church. And Dallian H. Oaks comes out in the next general conference and talks about every church is losing members but not as slow as the Mormon church. We're growing and yeah, yeah. They now Jeffrey Holland saying true faith is always in crisis. Stuff like that.

John Dehlin [02:48:02] That's managing expectations, isn't it? Man, that's lowering the bar.

Dallin Seely [02:48:06] That's like what my answer teacher said Book of Abraham is a revelation. True faith is always in crisis. I remember I called my. The friend that I told you about that had left the church for me. FYI I called her dad and had a 2 hour long. He was so happy to hear from me and he was like oh, how the tables have turned.

John Dehlin [02:48:27] Yeah, exactly.

Dallin Seely [02:48:30] And I think you know them. Chris and Heather Lundwall from Colorado. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyways great friends now. They yeah he became like a mentor for me. I still talk to him off and on and just tells me where he's at now. Me and Ashley talked with him and Heather for a long time one night just crying and asking him questions and what do they do now? What do they believe now? Where are they at now? And that's what me and Ashley have been doing for the past three years of is breaking down world worldview that didn't work for us and building up building up a new one. I imagine that cycle probably keep going.

John Dehlin [02:49:10] Yeah yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:49:12] But man it was a wild wild ride and it brought me and Ashley's marriage improved so much which is such a.

John Dehlin [02:49:22] After what?

Dallin Seely [02:49:23] After leaving the church. We see each other as friends now like life partners. I had so much baggage associated with the term husband and wife and what and like family and home even what a home looks like, what a husband looks like, what a wife looks like.

John Dehlin [02:49:40] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:49:41] So many shoulds in my head from the church. So much baggage that's been a process of dropping. Still working on it honestly. But there's so much and just trying to get in tune with. With my Dallin self and what do I like, what do I not like? What do I want out of life? What floats my boat? What really makes me want to wake up in the morning like and approaching fatherhood from a Dallin perspective rather than raising. These are temporarily my kids under the like under my custody. But they're really God's kids. And if they, If I fail to teach them repentance and faith in Lord Jesus Christ, then the sin is on my head. And so much less guilt and fear and so much more. Just living from, like, a place of, like, my heart, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:50:38] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:50:39] And just learning to do that for the first time.

John Dehlin [02:50:42] Yeah, yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:50:44] Still. Still working on it.

John Dehlin [02:50:46] Yeah. But yeah, as a orthodox Mormon, it, it's. It would make no sense that you could lose your faith in the. More in. In the church, leave it, and then your marriage would dramatically improve. No, in fact, it would be the opposite.

Dallin Seely [02:51:03] Ashley's parents were like, are you going to divorce Dylan now? Are you going to. Like, are things rocky? Ashley was kind of hesitantly said, actually, our marriage is, like, better than ever. I didn't expect that to happen.

John Dehlin [02:51:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that doesn't. That doesn't compute to an orthodox Mormon mind.

Dallin Seely [02:51:22] It doesn't.

John Dehlin [02:51:23] And yet once. Once each of you is starting to develop your own identities, know your own likes, discover who you are, and then you're able to come to the marriage vulnerable and authentic and then take the marriage wherever it needs to go to get healthier. It makes all the sense in the world your marriage would improve.

Dallin Seely [02:51:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:45] Right.

Dallin Seely [02:51:46] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:51:46] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:51:47] Yeah. Just seeing each other as fellow humans that are living a life together and working to make that work with all of its flaws and bumps along the road and stuff, but so different than, you know, we have to read five pages out of this book every day or else God's not going to bless us.

John Dehlin [02:52:03] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:52:03] Type head, mind games.

John Dehlin [02:52:06] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:52:06] You know, and that made Ashley's parents sound like they're been rude or unsupportive or they've been so kind. I had a huge conversation with Ashley's dad one time on this drive, and he just expressed his love and support and trust and wanted to, you know, try to answer any concerns that I had. And I talked to him for a while and he shared me, shared with me his views on things, and they've been still so supportive and I guess tolerant maybe may or may not be the right word. But yeah, family relationships have. Are just still great there. So. Lucked out in that I guess my two older brothers paved the way for my mom. My mom's been very kind to me. It still probably breaks her heart and makes her sad to know that I am not in the. Active in the church and stuff, but she still is so nice and kind to me and she tells me that she trusts me and that she loves me and I look happy and that meant A lot to hear her say that. Just the other day she told me, you seem really happy and you must be living right. And I didn't expect her, you know, to say that, honestly, but it was cool to hear her say, yeah, because in, from a traditional Mormon view, I am not living right anymore.

John Dehlin [02:53:17] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:53:17] Not that I've changed a lot about my lifestyle. It's just, I guess I have different beliefs about the world and the universe and my place in it. So.

Post-Mormon Growth, Psychedelics, and Mental Health

John Dehlin [02:53:27] Yeah, speaking of that, one topic that has become super popular in the past 10 years, especially in the post Mormon space, but certainly in the broader Mormon culture, is, is the role of psychedelics in post Mormons or just kind of modern Western psychological healing and development. And I, I'm only mentioning that because you had it on your outline. So do you want to talk about psilocybin and its role in your growth and progression?

Dallin Seely [02:54:03] Yeah, I do. And it's hard to, it's hard to talk about. I feel like anybody that's done it will be able to understand what I say a lot more than anybody who hasn't done it. But yeah, one of the biggest, most impactful things, life changing, psyche altering things, healthy things for me that I've done since, you know, leaving Mormonism has been psilocybin. I went with some friends to a, to like just a nice place and, and I, I just like, I took a good full dose for my body weight, I guess and how many grams?

John Dehlin [02:54:48] Any idea?

Dallin Seely [02:54:49] 4.5.

John Dehlin [02:54:50] That's. Is that Heroes dose?

Dallin Seely [02:54:52] Approaching Heroes dose? Yeah. For my first time according to.

John Dehlin [02:54:56] Yeah, let me back up.

Dallin Seely [02:54:57] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:54:58] Just real quick. So check out the book how to Change youe Mind by Michael Pollan because we are. First of all, I've never done mushrooms like that like we're describing. I've. I've still stayed more on the no alcohol kind of like no drugs kind of personally. So I, and I say that only because I don't want anyone to ever think, number one, we're encouraging people to break the law or number two, that, that we're encouraging drug use. That's a really personal decision. And, and for sure people should get educated before they just jump into this kind of stuff.

Dallin Seely [02:55:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:33] So the book how to change your mind by Michael Pollan, there's also a Netflix series by Michael Pollan as well. Check those out before you ever even entertain the stuff. And please don't take this as an endorsement of me or Mormon stories. And I can't count the number of friends that, that tell me this stuff has really Helped them. And that may or may not be true, but they certainly say it. Yeah. So that's my disclaimer. Okay, now, so you're doing. So 5 grams is a lot. Like a lot of people start with a half a gram or one gram. So five's a lot, right?

Dallin Seely [02:56:09] Yeah, yeah. I've come to find out that it

John Dehlin [02:56:11] was indeed a lot.

Dallin Seely [02:56:13] Yeah. I just want to echo everything that you said though. Like, I'm not endorsing this. And make your own. Make your own decisions. Yeah, yeah. So I did it and I had. I did a lot of studying. I read that book. I watched Netflix and just kind of prepared myself the best I could to go into it. But from what I understood, it just supposed to really alter your state of consciousness basically and separate you from your ego. The terms that I've heard. And man, after doing it, the best way that I can describe it is it slams you head on with the present moment. And your concept of self is totally gone. You feel like you are one with literally everything, like one with the universe, your idea. You realize that so much of what you thought was yourself. You in your head was just a concept.

John Dehlin [02:57:08] And

Dallin Seely [02:57:11] so many thoughts that you thought were important. Your ego, so many things, things that you believed about yourself, your worth becomes. Becomes like a tiny, tiny thing. When you realize that you're made of stardust, basically, and you feel like you are. You might have. You've been taking yourself so seriously your whole life. I'm saying you. But this is how I felt. I've realized I'm taking myself so seriously, way more seriously than I like a problem. What's even a problem? Like, that's something that we just work through or whatever, you know, while I'm on my sojourn on planet Earth. Stuff like that, you know, it's. I'm probably romanticizing it a little bit. I've had problems and issues since I've tried psilocybin. But something that I always remember is the feeling of not taking yourself so seriously. This is probably just a thought in your head. This too shall pass, basically. And the idea of a self, your ego is largely a construct of your mind. And don't like, don't take yourself so seriously, man. Like, calm down. You're floating on a giant rock, hurling through space, you know, and it, it thrusts you into that and you are there hard for hours and. But it doesn't seem like hours if you take a hero's dose. It seems like either minutes or years. But it was something that changed my mind drastically for the better. I had this tick where if I touched my tongue to the back of my mouth, it would make like a G sound. If I brought my tongue down from the roof of my mouth and I was. That is like almost saying God in my mouth. If I were to move my tongue around so I would have this tick where I would go shh. Whenever I removed my tongue from the top of my mouth. So I was saying gosh instead of God. I didn't want to take the Lord's name in vain. And like ever since doing mushrooms, I haven't really had that like a little thing like that where I just felt my mind open up so much. And after the mushrooms kind of processed out, it makes you realize that you're kind of. Your brain filters out a lot of perceptual. A lot of things that you perceive on the day to day. It makes you realize that maybe there, there's way more to consciousness than you experience on the day to day. And your mind is capable of a lot more things.

John Dehlin [02:59:39] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [02:59:40] And things that I've heard are helping people get over OCD or addiction or be okay with that. Death. The idea of death while you're on mushrooms is like, oh yeah, nothing's gonna change about me. I'm just gonna transform from one state to another. While you're on mushrooms. Death is like nothing, basically. Which is so wild to think about. I've only tried it once since, but it was. I took a little bit less the next time, but it was still just kind of puts me in my place where I remember I'm a. I'm a speck on a giant rock hurling through space. Don't take yourself so seriously. Just let energy pass through you. Good emotions, bad emotions and just be like this life is your one chance to. You have this one opportunity to fall in love with existence. Like so why not sit back and enjoy your life?

John Dehlin [03:00:29] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [03:00:29] You know, type mentality.

John Dehlin [03:00:33] Yeah. We. We grow up with this perception as uneducated teetotally Mormons that like okay, alcohol is benign, but like drugs like mushrooms, you know, that's really bad. The truth is alcohol is super. Way more dangerous and addictive and. And deadly than mushrooms. And mushrooms. Psychedelics are literally non addictive. You can't. Your brain won't.

Dallin Seely [03:00:58] I would not want to do that often.

John Dehlin [03:01:00] No. And your brain wouldn' have the chemicals. It has to replete a lot of those chemicals. And so it's. I've. I've heard it described as anti addictive to do psychedelics and at the most as I understand it a lot of people maybe once a year, but it's nothing like alcohol that can literally destroy your life in a matter of months or years. Right? Yeah.

Dallin Seely [03:01:21] Pretty bizarre that alcohol is legal and those aren't. Does alter your. I mean if you drink a ton, I imagine this alter your perception pretty bad too for sure. But yeah, it's.

John Dehlin [03:01:31] There is legislation being considered in Utah right now in 2023, in the winter spring of 2023 to legalize psychic psilocybin for medical purposes. And if you watch the movie also fabulous fungi or Fantastic fungi with Paul Stamets and I'm sure how to change your mind. Netflix also talks about this. There's all these studies at Johns Hopkins and all these elite research medical universities where they're finding that a lot of these psychedelics can be useful with depression, they can be useful with self harm, they can be useful with PTSD and, and all these other medical uses that are, that are pretty, pretty potentially valid. So I, again, I've never really done any of this stuff personally but, but. So this isn't me endorsing it, but learn about it especially if you've hit some dead ends mental health wise. Maybe it could help. Paul Stamis talks about in Fabulous Fabulous Fungi or Fantastic Fungi about he used to have Tourette's or stuttering and then after doing mushrooms he lost his tourists or study wild stuttering.

Dallin Seely [03:02:46] So anyway, yeah, no, I just.

John Dehlin [03:02:48] And, and it can be. It could become its own religion where people talk about psychedelics just like they talked about Mormonism and become missionaries for it. So I mean it's, yeah, it's, you know, it's something to.

Dallin Seely [03:03:01] There is a.

John Dehlin [03:03:02] Become educated about.

Dallin Seely [03:03:03] Dr. Christian told me about a guy started the divine assembly or something.

John Dehlin [03:03:07] Yeah, yeah.

Dallin Seely [03:03:08] Steve, you can claim it as a religious sacrament like peyote. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:13] As Stephen Sarah Urquhart started Divine assembly here in Utah.

Dallin Seely [03:03:16] Yeah, yeah. Cool. Yeah, no, yeah. Not endorsement but it was something that was very impactful to me and it was a really, really, I mean that and meditation. I've been doing a lot of meditation. I used to think meditation was like a woo woo type just sitting there and trying to achieve some type of mental state. But I've learned that it's literally just observing consciousness itself and, and, and just observing your mind and getting to know your mind and this the space that you're occupying for, you know, 80 years until you die. And it's been so helpful to me. And that's what I do try to do every day. I use the Waking up app for that and spend Sam Harris has been a big influence of mine. It's been super, super insightful just to get to know, like, get to know down. Get to know the Dallin brain. And here I am, like, feeling fortunate to be on planet Earth. And it's just want to do it, do it well, you know, I like

John Dehlin [03:04:13] what you wrote in your notes. Learning about consciousness and how the mind works and realizing it's not a. Do you remember what you wrote? A boxing ring.

Dallin Seely [03:04:22] A boxing ring between the Holy Ghost and Satan.

John Dehlin [03:04:24] Yeah. That's not what life is.

Dallin Seely [03:04:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:27] Instead it's what.

Dallin Seely [03:04:30] Oh, man. Well, first off, the brain just sends a bunch of random thoughts all the time.

John Dehlin [03:04:35] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [03:04:36] Just learning that that's a thing. Brains are reason generating devices. You don't have to take what it says seriously. You can say, oh, interesting thought. Think about that. Or, okay, that was weird. Or maybe this is indicative of something I should look into. It doesn't mean Satan's throwing a temptation at you or the Holy Ghost is telling you something.

John Dehlin [03:04:56] God wants me to marry this girl.

Dallin Seely [03:04:58] God wants to marry this girl, man. We had an RV for a bit and I opened the slide and the slide got cut on the pantry door and popped out a piece of trim on the side of the slide. Like the first day we bought our rv, it's falling apart. The first thought that went through my head, this is before the faith crisis and everything was, what did I do wrong? Why did God cause this to happen? To teach me something, you know that I was so stuck in that mindset. And the Book of Mormon says over and over, keep my commandments, you'll prosper in land. Keep not my commandments, you will. You'll be cut off from my presence. All the people keeping God's commandments, and they're blessed. You don't keep God's commandments, they're cursed. Blessed. Consider the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For they're blessed in all things, both temporarily and spiritually. If they hold out the end, they're blessed. They'll be happy forever. Happiness, you know, if you're doing everything right, ergo, if you're doing something wrong, not happy. And that's the paradigm that I feel like Mormonism set up for me. And I've come to learn that it's so much more complex than that. And it's not to say that all non Mormons are super happy and everything's right for them and. But it's also to say that there Are plenty of Mormons that are on antidepressants. Like, it's just so much more complex than follow the rules. Happy, don't follow the rules. Bad, sad, depressed.

John Dehlin [03:06:15] Absolutely. But I guess what's most important, a major theme throughout your entire story has been anxiety, fear, scrupulosity, perfectionism, paranoia. So how are you doing now as it relates to the. That major theme

Dallin Seely [03:06:35] I'm at least aware of when, like, I'm feeling anxious better than ever. I re. The things that make me the most anxious and kick me out of. Like I'm. I'm. I'm chilling here, having a good day. Are probably, I don't know, like, I get frustrated when kids are screaming or whatever or, like, lots of loud noises or. It's just something that I try to be a lot more aware of and not let it, you know, control my mind. Definitely not perfect at it, but I at least have a framework to understand. My brain is slipping into a fight or flight mode right now, and I'm probably not thinking straight. Or maybe anxiety or my stress or nervousness is coloring how I am seeing something Ashley said to me right now. And instead of thinking that Ashley hates me and sees me as a horrible person, maybe I am feeling something else right now. I'm not gonna be so quick to jump to conclusions and say that she's being a jerk. Maybe I should slow down and ask her for context where she's coming from, something like that. You know, just. I feel like I have much more of a healthy framework about how my brain actually works and how the world actually works, of mental health, health and working through things with the human brain that we find ourselves inhabiting and. Or at least feeling like we're inhabiting and working with that versus just what am I doing wrong? What are we doing wrong to deserve this? What is God teaching me with this? It's just a much more practical framework. I feel like.

John Dehlin [03:08:14] Well, as someone who spent six years studying psychology and providing therapy, what you just described in the last two minutes is literally kind of the crowning achievement that, you know, act therapist and acceptance and commitment. Cognitive behavioral therapy, Therapy therapist. It's exactly where he or she would want to lead their clients, which is your brain. Like you just said previously, your brain's going to generate thoughts and feelings and memories and stories, and it's always going to do that, no matter whether you're Mormon or not, religious or not, happy or not. And the number one, to try and manage or prevent those types of thoughts or feelings or emotions, even to try and Be happy all the time. Probably counterproductive. Yeah. And instead to learn to have a different. To change your relationship with your thoughts and feelings and stories and labels such that you can have them, observe them, notice them, but then not be bound to them or enslaved by them, but instead to figure out what your values are, what type of life you want to live, and to live the life you want to live and to have the thoughts and feelings and emotions and stories along the way. That's literally the insight that every really good therapist wants their. Their client to arrive at. So in that sense, you've been Dr. Christian. You've been a good client.

Dallin Seely [03:09:40] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:09:40] Yeah. Dave. Dave was one of my mentors.

Dallin Seely [03:09:42] Cool. Yeah. No, and things we've picked up from.

John Dehlin [03:09:45] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [03:09:46] Like you talking on Mormon stories. For sure.

John Dehlin [03:09:48] And Sam Harris and.

Dallin Seely [03:09:50] Oh, man. Yeah. Sam Harris, totally different cartole.

John Dehlin [03:09:53] Does talks about all this. Noah Rashetta, secular Buddhism, talks a lot about this stuff.

Dallin Seely [03:09:57] Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that means a lot to hear coming from you.

John Dehlin [03:10:03] Oh, well, I'm not trying to blow smoke. It's just literally, it's good stuff.

Dallin Seely [03:10:08] Yeah. I've learned a few things. Yeah. Daily working on it. But at least I like, you know, have a framework instead of what am I doing wrong? I was definitely trapped in toxic positivity. Happy, happy, happy. Got to be positive about this.

John Dehlin [03:10:22] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [03:10:23] And yeah. I'm just not. Not afraid of feeling other feelings now or expressing them.

John Dehlin [03:10:30] Yeah.

Dallin Seely [03:10:30] You know.

John Dehlin [03:10:31] Yeah. So I guess I want to at least make sure I get this last question in. When you're a Mormon, when you're known as a Mormon social influencer, and then you lose your faith. I imagine on the one hand, you don't want to tell anyone because you don't want to let people down or like neg, you know, overly influence people or you don't want to lose views or you don't want to lose money or donors or sponsors or whatever, there's kind of that angle. And then there could be another angle which is like, no, we want to be authentic or we want to be vulnerable or we want to let people know or. Or come what may or. So how have you guys landed in terms of your. I mean, you're here, so I think I know the answer. But like, how have you. How has it been for you and Ashley to navigate your faith crisis as kind of well known Mormons?

Life After Faith and Closing Reflections

Dallin Seely [03:11:24] Yeah. People have slowly noticed, like, Ashley's wearing really short shorts. What's. Like, people message us and like, is Ashley still wearing garments? Because they know, they hear things Here and there. There have been some people saying they're sad or some people messaging us on Instagram saying they're sad we lost our faith. Other people saying, you should try this church, try that church. Most people by far and wide are not Mormon that follow us. I mean, 99% of the world isn't. So most people. We've been getting so many comments lately of people saying, you and Ashley seem really happy. What's going on? So many.

John Dehlin [03:11:56] Like, a lot.

Dallin Seely [03:11:56] Yeah, you guys seem, like, happier than ever together. Or people saying, like, are you guys, like, just a lot of comments like that? What you would expect the exact opposite. I would say our income has continued to go up since we stopped paying.

John Dehlin [03:12:11] That's not the way it's supposed to work.

Dallin Seely [03:12:12] It's not the way it's supposed to

John Dehlin [03:12:12] pay your tithing and get blessings. And I guess if you stop paying tithing, financial ruin. Not. Not your situation.

Dallin Seely [03:12:19] Yeah. So literally, it's only been good for us. People feel like they can relate to us more. We feel like we're being more authentically ourselves when we do create content and post stuff, post a little more edgy stuff here and there. Not like it's so wholesome still, but edgy for our former selves of like, we made a TikTok of Ashley, like, flipping everybody in the house off as she leaves the saying, I need to get out of this house. And it's funny stuff like that. Or like saying a swear word here and there, but we still bleep it out. But just the fact that we're saying a swear word, people are like, oh, my gosh, Ashley said a swear word. Dallin said a swear word. But by far and wide, it has made people relate to us more and feel more connected to us because we're being our authentic self rather than to portray an image of a perfect family. At least for me, Ashley's always been herself. She's so good at that. I felt so much stress and guilt for the first five years of I still work. I still, like, struggle with this, honestly. But I'm way better at it than before of being myself and not trying to portray a perfect family every time we hit record on the camera. I used to stress about that so much that would drive Ashley crazy, drive myself crazy. And got to the point where I feel extreme anxiety ever turning on the camera. But now it's slowly still, I still have that, but it's slowly becoming a little bit less and just feeling comfortable sitting in front of the camera when we're recording. And Just being. Being Dallin. And that's it. Not feeling like I. Acting like somebody I should be or supposed to be. Just being Dallin. I still stress about background noise and. And all that stuff, and that still drives Ashley crazy, but at least I'm, like, more comfortable than ever. Just being Dallin on a. Unabashedly Dallin. And it's only been good for us.

John Dehlin [03:14:09] That should be the thumbnail. Unabashedly Dallin.

Dallin Seely [03:14:11] Unabashedly Dallin.

John Dehlin [03:14:13] There we go.

Dallin Seely [03:14:14] Yeah, that's it.

John Dehlin [03:14:15] Not that Dallin. The other other down.

Dallin Seely [03:14:19] Yeah. I am named after Downey jokes. So there's that.

John Dehlin [03:14:23] Well, Dallas Ely, what a treat to hear your Mormon story. I'm really grateful you would come. And I'm just a little bit salty at Ashley that she freaking bailed.

Dallin Seely [03:14:32] I know.

John Dehlin [03:14:32] Not bailed. She never agreed to come. I'm just kidding, Ashley. All in due time.

Dallin Seely [03:14:37] Yeah, yeah, maybe someday. But she sends her love and super grateful for you holding our hand during these past three years. And at least that's what it feels like. And, yeah, big thanks and happy to be here.

John Dehlin [03:14:50] Well, keep up the good work. Stay. Stay in touch. Send us any tips. We're trying to grow our channels, so.

Dallin Seely [03:14:56] Cool.

John Dehlin [03:14:56] Thanks for. Thanks for any advice. You. You guys are the ones that convinced us to upload our video to YouTube or to Facebook.

Dallin Seely [03:15:02] Good.

John Dehlin [03:15:02] And that's been. That's been helpful.

Dallin Seely [03:15:04] But, yeah, do reels.

John Dehlin [03:15:06] Do reels. Okay. I got Gerardo. Gerardo knows we're gonna start doing Facebook reels, so.

Dallin Seely [03:15:11] All right. Yeah, that's where it's at right now. Reels and tick tock and shorts.

John Dehlin [03:15:16] Yeah, Tick tock doesn't pay squat, though. No.

Dallin Seely [03:15:19] No, they don't. Maybe someday. We'll see.

John Dehlin [03:15:22] Yeah, we'll keep up the good work. Go Dashley's.

Dallin Seely [03:15:26] Thanks. Yeah, yeah, likewise.

John Dehlin [03:15:28] Stay in touch.

Dallin Seely [03:15:29] Okay, we'll do. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [03:15:30] Thanks, man. Thanks, everyone, for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Please hit the subscribe button on YouTube at the bell and then please, on Facebook, hit like or subscribe or follow. You can. You can do stars on Facebook to help donate or support. You can do super chats on YouTube or you can just become a monthly donor@mormonstories.org, click on the donate button at the top right or in the top middle. And we're transparent in our finances, you know, whatever you can afford. And we. Every. Every dollar that you give us, we try and use towards the cause. So. So if you want to pay forward the benefit that this content has given to you or if you want to just support it for being available to others. We really appreciate your support and we always welcome your feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com ideas for new episodes. We love your comments on YouTube or Facebook or wherever. Please share these episodes with anyone who you think might benefit from them. And most of all, all be kind to be good to each other and let's you know, if this is the only maybe we have a wonderful afterlife, but if this is the only life we get, then let's make the most of it and have the most joy, meaningful relationships and live healthy, happy lives. So thanks everyone. Take care, be good, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care of.

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