Introducing Rachel Weaver and the Black Menaces

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is July 3, 2023, and we are super excited for today's interview with the Rachel Weaver. Hey, Rachel.

Rachel Weaver [00:00:15] Hi. Happy to be here. Super excited.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] So some of you may remember Nate Bird. Hey, Nate. How's it going? John, we had Nate on Mormon Stories podcast. I don't know, a month or two ago, a few months back, a year or two ago, there was a major phenomenon on TikTok and Instagram and across news outlets nationwide. This amazing BYU student group named the Black Menaces sort of exploded onto TikTok kind of around Covid time, where all they would do would be to simply walk around BYU campus with a little microphone and ask predominantly white BYU students questions about race and racism and social justice. And they didn't provide commentary. They didn't argue or fight back. They just asked white BYU students questions and let them answer. And those videos eventually went viral. And that was and is the phenomenon of Black Menaces. And this courageous group of BYU students and ended up getting national press coverage. And we've already had Nate Byrd on to talk about his experience growing up black in the church and also going to byu. We had their friend Sanne Siali also come on and talk about her experiences. She wasn't officially one of the Black Menaces, but she was certainly a friend and an ally to them and in her own way fighting for social justice. But the very first black menace that I remember reaching out to me was Rachel Weaver.

Rachel Weaver [00:01:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:56] Right, Rachel.

Rachel Weaver [00:01:57] I did. I think I, like, sent you an email when, like, everything was blowing up. I think someone had sent to me that you. Because I've been listening to Mormon stories and someone's like, he mentioned you guys in there and I think I like, messaged you or something. I was like, when I graduate, we'll have to talk or something like that.

John Dehlin [00:02:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, really, really quickly I wanted to interview all of you. And then I realized that might not be good for your status of byu.

Rachel Weaver [00:02:24] Like, we, we were all still by. And I mean, I didn't feel comfortable being fully honest. Still waiting on diploma from them. So.

John Dehlin [00:02:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nate Byrd [00:02:33] I've been known to withhold those.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] Yeah, yeah, literally. Yep, they have. So. So we were patient.

Rachel Weaver [00:02:40] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] And you've graduated now?

Rachel Weaver [00:02:43] Yes, graduated.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] So BYU can't hold your diploma?

Rachel Weaver [00:02:46] No, I've got it in my room right now, so they can't take it away from me.

John Dehlin [00:02:50] So, yeah, today we're going to be talking about at Least two or three things. One is going to be Rachel Weaver's experience growing up as a black girl, young woman, and woman in the Mormon church, coming from Chicagoland area. Right.

Rachel Weaver [00:03:07] Inner city Chicago, like South side Chicago. That's where I grew up.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] So that's going to be one. And there's going to be good and bad. I'm guessing about that experience.

Rachel Weaver [00:03:16] Good and bad, like, very bittersweet. Yes. Lots of good things. Don't want to give too much away.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] And then we're gonna be talking about, oh, you served a mission, right?

Rachel Weaver [00:03:24] I did serve a mission, yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:25] So we're talking about Rachel's mission experience, and then we're gonna be talking about what it's like to be a black woman attending a predominantly white Christian university. And I immediately had someone in the comments say, wait, is BYU a Christian university?

Rachel Weaver [00:03:42] I saw that and I was like, it is like, let's stop pretending. Anyway, yeah, this is not a. Yes, it is a Christian school.

John Dehlin [00:03:48] Evangelical Christians just don't like to consider Mormons to be Christian, but Mormons consider themselves Christians. And just generally speaking, it's a good idea when it comes to identity to let people self identify how they want to self identify.

Rachel Weaver [00:04:02] I fully agree.

John Dehlin [00:04:03] So, yes, it's our position that BYU is a Christian university and predominantly white Christian University.

Rachel Weaver [00:04:10] Almost 86%, I think, right, Nate? 86%.

Nate Byrd [00:04:13] Yeah, something like that.

Rachel Weaver [00:04:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] And if you back out the athletes, you know, it decreases considerably.

Rachel Weaver [00:04:19] Right.

John Dehlin [00:04:20] In terms of diversity. What? Diversity?

Nate Byrd [00:04:24] Diversity.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] So we're going to be talking about Rachel's experience, not just being a black Mormon woman at byu, but also standing with others for equality and social justice at BYU. I mean, that's. Those are two. Two of their own things.

Rachel Weaver [00:04:41] 100%. Yes. And very much defined my experience, I mean, in my life overall, but also very much at byu.

John Dehlin [00:04:47] Yeah. And then I guess we'll end with a faith journey, because I'm sure your faith and your orthodox Mormon testimony, if you ever had one, will see doesn't emerge unscathed, or let's just say unchanged from all those types of experiences.

Rachel Weaver [00:05:03] Oh, 100%. I have. Yeah. I. Yeah. Again, I won't give too much away.

John Dehlin [00:05:07] Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [00:05:08] I want to say something, but I'm not going to right now.

John Dehlin [00:05:10] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [00:05:10] We'll get to it.

John Dehlin [00:05:11] Yeah. And. And then, of course, we always like to plug at the beginning and the end worthy social media efforts. And y' all have a platform, so let's just call that out right now. What's your platform?

Rachel Weaver [00:05:25] Yes, so we have the Black Menaces. On every social media, pretty much Instagram, Twitter, TikTok and YouTube. And we also have our own podcast where we interview people kind of dealing with issues dealing with race school. Like, it's a mix. There's no like one. Like, we kind of have a lot of themes that we go around. Just this last week we interviewed someone who went to byu and the week before we interviewed a black medical student. So it's all things race school and pretty much social justice. And so it's a really. It's been going on for a year now and it's called the black men's podcast. It's anywhere you can get a podcast. So. And it's also. Our videos are also on YouTube, so. Yay.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] Excellent. Any other thing y' all want to promote, Nate, before we start?

Nate Byrd [00:06:10] Oh, no, that's it. Just. Yeah. Check out our YouTube channel and watch the podcast.

John Dehlin [00:06:14] Okay, well, thanks, Nate. Thanks to you and, and, and to Rachel, both for being willing to come on. Like, I think I, I try to study a little bit about allyship and it's. It. I think one of the core tenets of allyship is that it's not oppressed minorities, groups, or individual's job to educate the rest of us. So when people do choose to lift their voice and speak out, that that can be. Can have an emotional toll. So we are grateful because we have a lot of work to do and it's not necessarily your job to help us do it.

Rachel Weaver [00:06:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:53] But we're grateful that you're willing.

Rachel Weaver [00:06:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:55] Thank you.

Rachel Weaver [00:06:57] This is what I do full time too. My full time job is diversity, equity and inclusion. So clearly this is a passion of mine. So.

John Dehlin [00:07:03] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [00:07:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] And Margi sends. Margi generally is my co host. She sends her love. She really wanted to come today, but we just decided that three co hosts is too much and she wanted to pass the mic or step back and let Nate fully take that co host chair. So, Margi, we love you. And Margi sends her love to you, Rachel.

Nate Byrd [00:07:23] Thank you.

Rachel Weaver [00:07:23] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] And to you, Nate. All right, so let's begin.

Why Black Families Join the Mormon Church

Rachel Weaver [00:07:27] Yes, I mean, let's begin with the

John Dehlin [00:07:29] question that I've been asking myself for 50 now, probably 45 years, like, why would a. Why would a black person, frankly, a person of color ever join the Mormon Church ever? And not just, you know, in the past 20 or 30 years, but in the past 150 years.

Rachel Weaver [00:07:48] 100%.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] How does that happen? Like, I can't even imagine that ever happening.

Rachel Weaver [00:07:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:53] And yet your amazing family has joined the Mormon Church.

Rachel Weaver [00:07:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:57] So Take us back. Where does your Mormon story begin? And you can take us back before your Mormon story to give us some history of your family.

Rachel Weaver [00:08:03] Let's go back to November of 2007. You know, this is a very, as I say, General Conference Y story from the missionaries there. You know, on a cold November night. This is. So I read the journal from the missionaries who found my family. So this is literally what it was like, a cold November night. Their appointments had all fallen through. They were knocking doors and they were literally like, okay, we'll just do a couple more and then we're gonna go home. And we were one on, like one of the last doors that they knocked on. And my mom came in.

Nate Byrd [00:08:32] Last door.

Rachel Weaver [00:08:33] No, it's literally fourth floor, last door situation. My mom answered the door, and me and all my siblings, like, peek over the stairs because there's like, stairs coming up to our house. And we're like, first of all, why are these white women at our house? Because if you don't know anything about Chicago, it's a very segregated city and I didn't have any white neighbors, nor were white people ever really hanging around where I lived. And so I was kind of like, all right, white girls, just chilling. That's cool. I didn't understand what they were. And it was late, so my mom didn't let them in. But they ended up coming back about a month later in December. And my mom loved it. My mom loved what they were sharing. And I think my mom has always been someone who kind of went from church to church. She's always been a spiritual person, but she was never like one church home. She grew up Catholic. And then when she met my dad, she was non denominational and went to his church. Then we ended up going to like an apostolic similar to Pentecostal church growing up. And that's what I went to up until my family, the missionaries found us. And so we took the missionary discussions, you know, the lessons, and we got baptized in January of 2008. And I remember so clearly, even at that age, I was 8 years old. And I remember in our old church, all my siblings had gotten baptized, every single one of them, like, you know, the call to the altar type. That's the church I attended. And I just never felt right. It felt weird to me as a kid. But so my family, when the missionaries asked if we wanted to get baptized, everyone, like, looked at me and was like, rachel, are you going to do it? And I did. I don't know. It just felt different to me. And yeah, so Then we joined the church, and the ward welcomed us with open arms. Just because this is, like, the church's dream is to see, like, a family of four kids. My mom. My dad at this time was serving overseas in Qatar, so my dad wasn't home, which, again, created a contention for their relationship later.

John Dehlin [00:10:24] But which branch of service?

Rachel Weaver [00:10:27] Navy.

John Dehlin [00:10:27] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [00:10:28] Yes. And so they were. The ward was super happy, did a great job fellowshipping us, and that was what began our journey.

John Dehlin [00:10:37] Okay, so for those, like, for an orthodox Mormon, you know, your story is called a golden story.

Rachel Weaver [00:10:46] It is.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] It's like a golden family.

Rachel Weaver [00:10:49] Oh, yeah. Especially if you look at, like, the trajectory of me and all my siblings. My. Both my older sister and my older brother have been married in the temple. My sister has three kids who've been born under the covenant. You know, we are, again, like I say that General Conference story, literally the one in a million knock on a door and find a family, and their whole life has changed. That is my family.

John Dehlin [00:11:06] Yeah. Yeah. And so that, you know, especially not just because your family was a golden family in that they all. Did you say your dad converted as well, or.

Rachel Weaver [00:11:16] Yes, later. Again, we'll get into that. My high school years.

John Dehlin [00:11:20] So you're at least your mom and if you and some of your siblings all converted. Right.

Rachel Weaver [00:11:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:24] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [00:11:24] At that time.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] So, like, that qualifies as what we call a golden family within the Mormon missionary nomenclature. So for an orthodox Mormon, that's, like, only to be celebrated and it's extra cool because it's a black family. And an orthodox Mormon would know that we've got some embarrassing history, but they would also think, well, we're not a racist church. We love all people. And so, like, this is a great validation that our church, you know, is good for everyone and that we love black people, blah, blah, blah. Like, that's the orthodox point of view for, like, a progressive or a liberal or an ex Mormon. The thought is very different. It's sort of like if we were to imagine sister missionaries showing up in a South Chicago home. White. Were they white?

Rachel Weaver [00:12:12] Yeah, they were white. That's why I said that. I was like, oh, hey, like, that was just my note. Even at, like, 8 years old, I was like, oh, I know. At this point, I understand race. I know my school is, like, 99 black. I, you know, like, I wasn't unaware of racial things as a black child. You grow up and, you know, you're. You're aware of who you are as a person and the people around you. And again, Chicago, super segregated And I was aware of that as well as a child.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] Yeah. So those of us who are aware of the, the Mormon Church's deep problems with racism of all types, not to throw shade on the church, just, I'm just speaking from a historical perspective. What we imagine that conversation looking like is a couple options. Number one is white, you know, Mormon missionaries, predominantly from Utah, knocking on the door and like, A, you like, peek around the window and say, I'm not opening the door for them. Or B, you open the door and say, y' all are from a racist church, get the heck off my doorstep. Or C, like, if you're just feeling really, let's just say generous or patient, you're like, hey, listen, thanks for coming. I know about the history of your church. Like, we're fine. Or like your church, with all due respect, is the last church we'd probably ever want to join. Your church didn't allow black people to even be full fledged members until 1978. You fought the Civil Rights movement. You were against Martin Luther King Jr. You called him a communist. Your Book of Mormon is clearly racist. Like, there's no way in h we're ever joining your church. Like, that's how we would imagine any Mormon missionary ever, you know, approaching any person of color in the entire United States. But that's clearly not.

Rachel Weaver [00:14:00] No, that's clearly not what happens.

John Dehlin [00:14:02] So help. Can you explain, can you explain the disparity between what many of us would expect to happen and what actually happens? And Nate, you're welcome to jump in here as well, but go ahead.

Rachel Weaver [00:14:13] I think that there are some black people, and I'm speaking on black people specifically, just because I can't speak for any other racial group, but black people specifically. Some people don't know some of the specifics about the church. They know that overall they can be racist, but some people don't know the specifics, especially depending on what you've been exposed to. And you know, my mom in particular just hadn't been exposed to the LDS Church and what had been going on. And so my mom was pretty open. She also, again, my mom grew up, had a very diverse upbringing. And so she went to school with people of different races and ethnicities. And so it wasn't uncommon compared to like other people maybe who lived around me to open the door and let white people in. My mom was someone who would be more willing to do that because of the way that she was raised and the people she was raised around. So I think that my mom was also someone who, you know, would have been more receptive than maybe someone else, considering her life experiences. And she was a nurse as well. So being a nurse and working with, again, diverse populations, serving and nurses, she worked all over the city and she was in the army Reserves. So again, exposed to. My mom just had been exposed to working with so many different types of people. She wasn't really kind of. She was less. I'm not like her in that way. My mom's more. A little more accepting and like, willing to hear people out. And so I think that also played a major role in it. But I don't know about black people in particular. Nate, if you want to speak on why they. And I don't know, black people are spiritual. Overall, we're very spiritual people. Like, we're taught to believe in God from a young age. And so anybody who's gonna talk about God in some capacity, like, we do have respect for.

Nate Byrd [00:15:50] So just so I can get a better understanding of the question, you're just kind of asking why, like a black person would want to be involved with

John Dehlin [00:15:56] the church or would even entertain three minutes of the Mormon, White Mormon ministries on their doorstep, given the Mormon church's obvious racist past.

Nate Byrd [00:16:06] Well, you know, having served as a black missionary and being, you know, my mission president made it a point to put me in all the black areas.

John Dehlin [00:16:13] Same.

Rachel Weaver [00:16:15] Made you feel like you had to change the area, huh? Yeah, I was like, this is way too much pressure. Oh, my gosh.

Nate Byrd [00:16:19] Oh. And I mean, I did, I went, I did my job. I did what I was concerned about.

Rachel Weaver [00:16:22] I know we'll get back to that. But I remember I had like a breakdown one Sunday. Anyway.

Nate Byrd [00:16:27] Yeah, yeah. Black people are indeed like, very spiritual. And that goes back to, you know, it goes back to the African continent. But also, you know, with the way that Christianity was ingrained into slavery, that was one of the only times that black people were allowed to kind of express themselves was through religion. And so that's a huge part of black American culture. And so I think that, you know, a lot of times, because of that spirituality, if you offer to share a message with someone about God, then they're going to say yes to that. And then, you know, when a missionary comes in your house, they're not going to start with, hey, did you know that Joseph smith married a 14 year old girl? Hey, did you know that Brigham Young hated black people and approved slavery? They're not going to start with those things. They're going to start with, how would you feel about being with your family forever even after you die, or how would you feel about, you know, about this or about that, or you want a place to bring your family. And then they have youth programs. Like, they're gonna start with those things that are appealing and things that sound good and feel good. And so I think that there's almost, I think, in some ways, that connection to God and that connection to spirituality can be kind of taken advantage of. And a lot of times, you know, the knowledge of things doesn't come until later. And, you know, some people fortify against it. Dr. Rood, Dr. Jacob Rude just published an article talking about, like, five different. Or I think maybe it's 10 different ways. Five or 10 different ways that black people kind of reconcile being in the church. And it's, you know, every end of the spectrum from, like, complete denial of self and culture to distancing from the church and then, like, everything in between. But I think that's. That's probably why.

Rachel Weaver [00:18:00] Yeah, they come in talking about faith. I mean, that's what I did on my mission, talking with. And in the south, people are a little more familiar, I felt, like, with the LDS Church and, like, Mormons and so. But we're coming in talking about faith. What is your belief in Christ? And my mom is a very faithful woman. Just through her life experiences, she has been and will always be. And so if someone's gonna talk about faith with her, my mom's gonna eat that up. And a lot of very religious black people do, as I saw on my mission as well. Like, very rarely did we. I mean, unless people had extremely distinct knowledge of exact information, which a lot of people don't, who are not very much exposed to the church, like, had a friend or something like that.

John Dehlin [00:18:42] Yeah. As I. As I started working outside of Utah, I just realized, you know, you talk. You talk to a lot of people about the Mormon Church, and they're like, do you mean Amish or. They're like, oh, you mean that group that practices polygamy? They don't know even the very basics of what a Mormon is. So I imagine that's part of it. It's just a lot of. Just unawareness because we think we're the center of the universe sometimes in Utah.

Rachel Weaver [00:19:05] Yeah, I think. Yeah. Mormons in Utah think that. Think people who are LDS outside of Utah don't think that, but.

John Dehlin [00:19:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then. And then there. There was a black BYU graduate named Darren Smith who I interviewed early on in Mormon stories.

Rachel Weaver [00:19:21] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:22] He made the point that if black people cut anyone off who had a Racist past. They would never interact with anyone ever.

Rachel Weaver [00:19:31] Yes, this is, and this is one of the arguments that I've heard from people of like, you know, staying the church and whatnot. Like every institution is racist 100%, but every institution has gone about acknowledging their racism and dealing with it in different ways.

John Dehlin [00:19:47] Yeah, that's not to, yeah, that's not to say that all organizations have been equally racist or have dealt with their past racism equally.

Rachel Weaver [00:19:55] Right.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] But it is kind of true that like it would be hard to find, whether it's the government, schools, corporations, anything. Find, find an organization that doesn't have a racist past, you know, or a person. Right. Who isn't racist now. It's hard to find.

Rachel Weaver [00:20:12] Very true. Yeah. White supremacy is embedded in United States culture. It's what it was built off of. And so it's very hard to find some place that doesn't have any history with it.

John Dehlin [00:20:23] Yeah, yeah. So what if you had to just, if you had to kind of like try and assess your family's situation in 2008, what were they, what were they wanting or lacking or needing or experiencing that made them, some would say vulnerable or some would make, some would say open or, you know, open to considering a Mormon message?

Rachel's Family and Early Church Experience

Rachel Weaver [00:20:49] Yes, I think a combination of things. So I think my parents relationship was always a little rocky when I was a child. So I think that, that always polls for someone to want to hear from someone or get, you know, some type of safety net. I feel like, as well as my dad, like I said, he was deployed. So my dad was not in the United States and my mom, you know, not that we didn't have family support. We did. But it, my mom's relationship with both sides, my dad's family and her family were always not as strong as they could be because of issues outside of like what we'll discuss here. And so I think that my mom always enjoyed having a church community and at our other church it was a megachurch, so it was huge, giant, like I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of people went there, but it's like the, where they preach is like the size of the conference center. Not literally, but in that same fashion. And so it wasn't really close knit, which I think my mom was used to growing up in more close knit experiences, especially from what I know when my dad was a minister in a non denominational church. And I think that, you know, hearing the missionaries and then going to church, once my mom saw what that was like, I think that was really appealing as well. Especially because coming from the family that my mom came from and her circumstances, she never really knew what a very, like, structured family looked like her. My dad tried to create that because they both came from rough family situations, and they tried to create that. Right. They got married. My dad was 25, so he was really young compared, you know, and had four kids, and they were trying to create that. And obviously their own issues prevented them from really flourishing in that. But going to the church, my mom saw something that she wanted. Families, happy families. Mother and father are married and in a great relationship and, you know, teaching their kids about God and Christ. I think that that was something that my mom saw and was like, I want this for my kids, because she wanted it for herself and couldn't get it for, you know, it wasn't what she wanted 100% for multiple reasons that are not hers to blame because of generational trauma and whatnot. But I think that that was something that my mom was like, this is something that if I could get my kids around this, maybe this could be their future, too. I don't. She hasn't expressed this to me. This is just my observation. Looking back as an adult and now, understanding the way life works and the way people see situations, and if you

John Dehlin [00:23:13] can imagine your family, or just in general, how a black family might navigate the choice of, like, a predominantly black church where it feels familiar and people are like me, and it kind of. I might come from a cultural heritage that feels more familiar versus a white church.

Rachel Weaver [00:23:34] Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:35] Different.

Rachel Weaver [00:23:36] Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:37] But also maybe there's power or access or something that a white church might offer that a black church might not. How do you think your. I know you're speculating, but whether it's your mom or just a family, how might they navigate that decision?

Rachel Weaver [00:23:53] Yes, I think depending on outside pressure. I also think how determined whoever is joining the church is. My mom was extremely determined because I know that there was backlash from my family, and there has been over the years. They've gotten over it to some capacity. But my family was kind of like, what are you doing joining that white church? And my mom has always been like, I do what I want. Personality. That's where I get that from. And so that's what she did. And I don't think. And I also think we were really close with the missionaries. The missionaries were very integral to my family, the church. I mean, back in the day, the way they used to do the missionary program, I felt like, was very different in the way that families were close to missionaries, and they were at our house multiple times a week. Like, we felt very, very close to them. And so I think that that also had a huge impact, that we felt so close to these people who were introducing this church to us. And they also did a. I mean, I think those initial thoughts were there, but once the missionaries came in and then they brought members in to really support us, they kind of, like, created a safety net around my family. Nate, I don't know if you have anything to add on how maybe a black family. No. Yeah. So I think that in my ward in particular, they did a really good job of. They were aware of what could possibly happen, just because my ward is on the south side. So we weren't the first black family to join. We weren't the. The first black people that they've seen get baptized. So I think they were aware of what could possibly happen, and I think they saw the potential of how young we were, because my brother was. Because I was 8, so my sister had just turned 10. My brother had just turned 11. So you know what I mean? Like, and my little sister was. She wasn't even eight. I think Ruhana was five. Yeah. So they're seeing these young kids. Like, I mean, I'm thinking of how I was raised, and, like, if I was in a ward and I saw that, I'm like, what can I do to make sure that family stays here? And I think multiple people under my ward felt that way. And seeing, like, you know, my mom, a single mother, like, they all kind of put their efforts into helping us rise up and, like, stay active.

John Dehlin [00:25:53] And you may have already addressed this, but was it a predominantly white ward, even though it was in the south side of Chicago?

Rachel Weaver [00:25:59] Yeah. So that's the interesting thing, which I'll talk more about as I talk about my childhood and teenage years.

John Dehlin [00:26:03] We can go there right now.

Rachel Weaver [00:26:04] Yeah. So my. My ward was interesting demographic. So the area is, like, pretty black, and it still is majority white, but it's not as white as most wards, if that makes sense. So I'd say about 30% of the congregation is black, and that's a mix. And then the youth program in particular, there were about, like, four or five strong white families that had kids, like, a lot of kids. So their kids were in it. But then there were also a lot of black youth. That's something really important about my experiences. There were other black families that were also in my ward that had kids my same age, and there were other kids that didn't come to church, but they came to our youth program. They came to all our youth events. They weren't baptized, but they came to all of our youth events because that's the kind of ward I had. And so our youth program was always very diverse. If anything, white people were the minority in my youth program in particular. So it was like, leadership was always very white, if that makes sense. Like, there was still a lot of white presence, 100% bishops and bishops, youth leaders. Yeah. Like, I never had, like, a black. A young woman's leader or anything, or a black bishop or anything like that. But the youth was quite diverse because these were people's families, if that makes sense. And a lot of my ward, so my ward was on the south side, near the University of Chicago. And so the University of Chicago boundaries are in my ward. And so people that come there for Law School, PhD, Booth School of Business, which is, like, competes with Harvard, top right. They all come there or if they're going to school. And so I'd say about 50% of my ward was transient people who were there just for school. So I think that that had a large impact on why the youth program was more diverse, because those were people who actually lived there and were stable there, versus, like, our primary was ginormous, our nursery was ginormous, because these are people in their graduate years getting their degrees before they move back to Utah or California, Arizona, wherever they go to start their businesses or start their careers. And this was kind of like a stepping stone for a lot of young white people in the church because they're just there to get their degree and leave.

John Dehlin [00:28:10] Got it. Yeah. We know Elder Don H. Oaks, who's the first counselor in the First Presidency, is a graduate of University of Chicago Law School.

Rachel Weaver [00:28:19] Yes. He goes back every year and speaks to the LDS people who are in law school.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] So would you have remembered him attending your ward at some point growing up?

Rachel Weaver [00:28:27] So he never attended my ward, but I visited. Yeah, he never visited my ward, but I was very much aware of him, who he was, because he was an alum and, like, had a very big involvement with the law students. And I knew a lot of them because some of them were, like, the young men leaders, the young women leaders.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] Yeah, And I'll just say, absolutely. Mormon scripture, Mormon doctrine, Mormon history, Mormon church leadership have a really awful past of teaching really racist things. And we've covered that on Mormon stories a lot. We won't. We'll talk about that later. But I will also say, as someone who grew up white and Mormon, I felt like if a black family had joined my ward I would have been more excited about that. I would have wanted to be extra nice, extra friendly, extra supportive. And that doesn't mean I wasn't racist. But I do want to say that what I brought, what I picked up for my Mormonism is be extra nice and loving to people of color and to others. And let's try and, you know, so I would have been excited. And I wonder if you experienced that word members that were like, really excited to have y' all join.

Rachel Weaver [00:29:39] Yeah, I think it was a combination of things. I also think the church teaches this strange, like, way of viewing people who are converts and they feel need help that they feel need saving, that the church, like, really. Yeah. Makes you feel. And I say this because I felt this way as a missionary. That's why I say this, because I recognize that it in myself feeling this way of like, I have the ability to like, change their life. I have the ability to help them be on a whole new path and not even in, like, I don't think it's a conscious self righteousness. It is just. But it is self righteous. Right. Like, I have a better way of living and I know I can help these people. And I think a lot of people felt that way about my family. I don't think it was malicious by any intent. I just think people were like, this could really help this family. And what can we do to make sure that they have a positive experience? And my family did. I mean, we did pretty well. Me and my three older siblings all went to BYU's. So.

John Dehlin [00:30:29] So what I think I hear you saying is that even though a white Mormon may have good intentions of wanting to be extra kind to a black person or a black family or black members, there's kind of a bit of a superiority that comes with that of like, hey, we're gonna help you because you need our help.

Rachel Weaver [00:30:48] Well, in some capacity, based on my experience, I'm not gonna say this is for everyone, but very rarely do you see a, well do black mother, black father have, you know, doesn't have any life struggles being like, yep, I'm gonna join the church. I've never seen that, Nate. Have you? Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:31:05] Right.

Rachel Weaver [00:31:05] I haven't seen that personally, so. And I mean like a whole family, like, they already have kids because again, this is the church's bread and butter stories to feed to people. And so that's just not common. And so because of that, there's always something that they do need a little help with.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] Right.

Rachel Weaver [00:31:19] Like, my mom ended up being a full time single parent once My dad got back and so the church was there to support and give that helping aspect that I speak of. And yeah, that's just kind of my thoughts. I only think it really works. And part of the reason why it worked was because my family didn't need help, especially as my once my dad came back a year after that. My dad came back in January of 2009 and then my parents relationship wasn't the best and they ended up separating a month after he came home. He was upset that we had joined the church because the missionaries actually had come because my area is like one of those areas that the missionaries I guess come and knock a lot. And back when I was around two years old, the missionaries had knocked on my family's door at a different place because we lived in the same complex, just in a three bedroom. And my dad was like, no, my wife is not home, she's at work, so you'll have to come back. And I guess they never came back. And so I think there was some resentment from my dad that my mom had let the missionaries in when he wasn't there because he didn't do that. And yeah, racial issues as well. But again we'll get into that later as we discuss when my dad like eventually did join the church. And yeah, so okay.

John Dehlin [00:32:29] Yeah, so it was an initial when your dad comes back from military service overseas. It was a bit of a wedge.

Rachel Weaver [00:32:36] Yeah. But yeah, on top of other things though, like there were already wedges in their relationship and other issues. And I just think that was just like, you know, a little cherry added on the scale of bad situations. And then so yeah, then my mom was like my dad moved to Florida so he was no longer living in the city of Chicago. So it was like full time single parent, 1,000%. The military was no longer giving my family money just cause like my dad was out of service. And so yeah, there was a. There's that and okay. So I think. Yeah. And by this point I'm nine, so we're very much like I was in primary, deep in. And yeah.

Growing Up Black and Mormon

John Dehlin [00:33:13] So how did your Mormons. What was it like being a Mormon? What was it like for you being a Mormon? Yeah, so girl and young woman.

Rachel Weaver [00:33:21] Yeah. So I think early memories, it was always very, I felt, I'm trying to figure out how to word this. It was very weird just coming from like again all black experiences. My elementary school is like 98% black. You know, grew up in a black household and I was aware of diversity but I didn't really have to interact with it that much. And so going to the church was kind of like a shock. It wasn't something that I. I mean, I was so young that kids are very malleable at that age, so I adapted pretty well, but it was definitely like, a different experience. And I always remember feeling inferior to the other kids in primary, and I remember this because they knew everything I didn't. Like, people don't realize as well. Like, my mom was a convert. She was learning the gospel when I was. So, like, they're having their parents read the scriptures to them every night. They know the stories, they know these songs. They know all this stuff that I don't know what they're talking about. And I'm in primary and the kids are, like, answering, and we play games. You know, they play games and all this. Which songs, songs. And they think it's harmless, which it is. And it's not meant to make me feel excluded, but I remember feeling like I don't know this stuff, and, like, I hope one day I do. And it felt racialized. Not on purpose, but it just felt like a lot of the black kids in primary all had convert parents. Parents who weren't, you know, didn't know and maybe didn't teach them the same things, but all the white kids did. And again, I don't think that was a purposefully racialized experience, but that's how I interpreted it as a kid. And it made me feel like the white children were valued more, even though I don't think anyone purposely did that. But it's like, oh, these are the convert kids, and then these are the, like, real member kids. That's how it felt sometimes until my family had, like, stuck around long enough. Then I felt like we were actually, like, valued as, like, full, like, actual members. Right. And people from my ward might have a different perspective, but this was my perspective and, like, the way I interpreted things as a child, I felt like we were taken more seriously once, like, we got older and were in for more than just, you know, we were active for more than three years, and we actually kept coming to things and kept showing up because there's a high, you know, inactivity rate among converts overall. And in my ward in particular, definitely had a ton of inactivity and stuff. Like, I saw people who were coming when I first got baptized stopped, and then, like, started coming back when I was a senior in high school. So that wasn't an uncommon experience for the ward, the ward members. And so I think not on purpose. I just think that's Kind of how it is like when they see you actually taking the steps. Like, my mom got endowed a year in. My mom got her patriarchal blessing. I remember when she got her blessing because I guess we were being loud while I was being recorded. I remember that being like a situation

John Dehlin [00:36:05] forbidden in Mormon temples.

Rachel Weaver [00:36:06] Yes, well, because we were. Well, we weren't. We didn't go to the temple with her, but when she was getting her patriarchal blessing. And so.

John Dehlin [00:36:12] Yeah, Oh, I see, I see.

Rachel Weaver [00:36:13] Yeah, yeah. Like the patriarch was like, be quiet, you're running around. Yes, exactly. While she's getting her patriarchal blessing. Because I mean, we're like under 12 years old, all of us, at this point. So, you know, we're rowdy little kids. And yeah, so they were. The ward was taking the steps with my mom to make sure she was progressing as well. So.

John Dehlin [00:36:32] Yeah. So I always ask, you know, there are a few markers of kind of orthodox Mormonism. Does your family have family meeting? Does your family have family prayer? Does your family read the Book of Mormon every night or day? And then like, do you avoid alcohol? Do you avoid tobacco? Avoid coffee and tea? Do you go to church for three hours every Sunday? Those are the markers. Now, even white Utah Mormon families with a stay at home mom struggle to do all those things. And there's plenty of people I've interviewed who are like, yeah, we tried to do family prayer, we tried to do scripture study, but it was hard to do it all the time. I can't imagine what it'd be like for a convert, you know, a single mom, you know, in south side of Chicago, trying to do that with her kids. What was it like for you?

Rachel Weaver [00:37:23] Right, yeah, so I think we did some things. I used to joke on my mission. I tell people, I'm like, I feel like for the first couple years my family was kind of like we weren't aware of how intense it was, if that makes sense. Like, I mean, we went to church, but we didn't read our scriptures during the week. I don't remember it at least we didn't really like, we prayed like normal, like before dinner. I don't feel like we really added too much more so than just going to church consistently. Maybe my mom was doing things individually, but as a family, I didn't feel that. And so I don't really feel like much changed the longer we were in the church, the more we did though. Like, I remember my senior year, my mom, or like in high school, my mom really wanted to do scripture study or really try to have family home evening. And I think that's also because my mom just also had more knowledge and understanding because, again, she was still fairly new in the church. It takes you a while to learn a lot of the things culturally and doctrinally. So I think that it was. Yeah, we weren't super strict. Like, we went shopping on Sundays. We, like, we knew we weren't supposed to do it, but, like, we still did it. And we would go out. And then again, as we got more into the church, we became, I guess, more orthodox, you could say. Like, we started following what we were supposed to. More. More letter of the law in that way.

John Dehlin [00:38:34] What about coffee and tea and tobacco?

Rachel Weaver [00:38:36] Yeah, no, we. So that was like. I mean, I don't remember from childhood, but I know once I became my conscience, that was very much true in my household.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] Okay, what was it like telling kids at school that you were Mormon, or

Rachel Weaver [00:38:49] did you not tell them so in elementary school? I don't really remember that being a conversation just because I'm also a kid. So what am I talking about church for? But as I got into middle school, I feel like it became a part of my identity because. So I went to middle. I went from my elementary school, sixth grade, I stopped going there. So seventh and eighth grade, I went to a different school. And one of the girls in my ward who I was in primary with and started attending young women's with because I'm 12 now, also was at the same school. And so I had no friends. I went in with no friends. But she came with her entire friend group from her elementary school. And so she was super nice. I was like, you can hang out with me and my friends. And I started being friends with her and all of her friends, which was a great experience because, like, she's like my best friend to this day still.

John Dehlin [00:39:35] I hate to say this, but white or black or.

Rachel Weaver [00:39:37] So she's half. She's half Mexican, half white.

John Dehlin [00:39:39] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [00:39:40] So, yeah. And her father was also the bishop at the time when my family got baptized. And so her family. Because up until I came, so I'm 12 at this point, my family had been fellowshiped by their family a ton. So we would go over there all the time. And we were spending a lot of time at their house before I went to school with her. So it was very natural that we just became friends once. We, like better friends when we went to school every day together. And so I say that to say that's when my, like, Mormon identity kind of became more prevalent in my social life. Because I was older, more conscious, and I could, like, I guess subscribe to it more as well. But also, like, it was very much her identity, and all her friends knew that at school. And so then when I became her friend, it's like, oh, yeah, this is my friend from church. So now that's also like, me too. Which, again, wasn't bad. And I was okay with it. But that's when it very much was like, yeah, these are our Mormon friends.

John Dehlin [00:40:29] So once that became more part of your identity at school, middle school, and high school, did you. Did people like it? Did they express concerns? Did they in any way criticize or even.

Rachel Weaver [00:40:40] Definitely more in high school. Definitely more in high school. It was more like, what the heck? Middle school people are still whatever. Like, it just wasn't really a top. I don't know. I feel like when you're younger, your brain's not working in the same ways. But when I was in high school, definitely 100% people were more like, wow, I've never met a black Mormon. Or, wow, that's crazy. Like, it was very much shocking, especially as people started doing what they wanted to do in high school. And, you know, I'm like, I don't do those things. And people are like, why?

John Dehlin [00:41:05] For those who don't know me, oh,

Rachel Weaver [00:41:06] so people are like, smoking and drinking and having sex and whatever else they want to do. That's against what the church teaches. And you know me, I'm like, I don't do those things because I am lds. People are like, why don't you do it? I'm like, because I'm lds. Like, we don't believe in that. I don't practice that. I'm very religious, blah, blah, blah.

John Dehlin [00:41:21] So, okay, and did you feel like that counted against you socially once you got into high school or did not

Rachel Weaver [00:41:28] hurt you or anything? I feel like it did a combination of things. So I feel like me understanding my own blackness was hindered by being in the church during those formative years, if that makes sense. Because I'm spending all my time at home with my family or in a very black school. But then, like, this, the church is just becoming more and more important the older I get, if that makes sense. It's becoming more and more prevalent in my life. But it's still like, the leaders are all white people who are teaching to me, even though I have, like, again, this whole idea of, like, the black people were not seen, I felt were not as valued. Right. But the people who were valued are like, white people. If that makes Sense. So it's like I'm trying to strive towards being this, like, LDS person who isn't like me, isn't a black person, doesn't have black culture. And so I felt like I was. I was trying to work towards that. I wanted to be like that. I wanted to be seen as, like, a full member. I wanted to be seen as, like, a serious member who knew what they were talking about. And so to me, that meant striving towards whiteness, which I was doing at a certain point in my life. And I feel like that was definitely present in the way that I presented myself and the way that I went about life. And so when I was in school, I didn't connect with the black kids as much. When I was, like, a freshman in high school, I didn't. I have more like white friends because I struggled with figuring out how to, like, be comfortable with that while also fitting in with my Mormonism, if that makes sense. Nate, I don't know if you know what I'm talking about or can add anything to it if you've experienced something similar, but I think that's a struggle that all black LDS people experience in some capacity. And even black people who grow up in all white environments probably can relate to what I'm talking about. This. You're trying to strive towards, like, what is seen normal, but then you also have, like, your racial identity that isn't, like, gone 100%. So it's like this weird combination of things that we're just, like, cultivating over time. And definitely ended in me not necessarily feeling comfortable with my blackness in high school. And eventually I processed that as I got older, through my sophomore year, it got better, but definitely, like, a struggle.

John Dehlin [00:43:33] I want to jump into that, but I think we should leave that discussion to a little later. But I can immediately think of a Mormon saying, you weren't striving towards whiteness, you were striving towards being a good, faithful Mormon. And there's a difference. Yeah, right.

Rachel Weaver [00:43:48] No, it's literally the same thing. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] Yeah. Let me ask you. This may be hard. You don't have to do it. But I just had the idea to ask you this. Let's say you, Rachel Weaver, assume your most orthodox believing mindset at the pinnacle of your Mormon faith.

Rachel Weaver [00:44:09] Maybe that's your mission post mission.

John Dehlin [00:44:10] Me?

Rachel Weaver [00:44:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:44:11] Okay. So if, If. If someone were to come to you and say, I'm, I'm black, I'm thinking about joining the Mormon Church. How has the Mormon Church helped your family? What are all the benefits of Joining the Mormon Church as a black family, what would you have listed off as all the ways the church helped your family growing up?

Rachel Weaver [00:44:34] Yeah, my family growing up, the church gave us a very strong sense of community. It gave us people who cared about us, people who were showing up for us, people who were willing to serve and, you know, assist when things. When we needed help. It also gave my mom a lot of mental security. My mom knew that her children were with people she trusted, with people who were safe and were encouraging good moral behavior, which is always a fear of parent. Right. Like, you want your kids to make good choices. You want your kids to not do drugs. You don't want your kids to go be having sex or have a baby. And all these things, like, these are, like, concerns that were topics of conversation for, like, even my black family, which is part of the reason why my family loves the church now, like my extended family. I mean, love is a strong word.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] Oh, you're non LDS extended family?

Rachel Weaver [00:45:18] Yeah, my non extended family. Like my grandma in particular, she doesn't mess with the church, but she loves what it's done for us. That's what she always says. My grandkids, you know, they didn't get pregnant. My grandkids were never on drugs. And no shade to anybody else in my family, but not everyone has that. My cousins who might have grown up with me have different experiences, which aren't bad. And I don't think that our culture should move away from, like, valuing people in these ways, but to black families who want to see success in this way. Like, we were able to do that because the church afforded us that. We were also able to see people who went to college. My first gen, like, my mom never finished school, like her undergraduate degree. And so maybe I think one other person in my family had finished college, like my great aunt, but I didn't really know anybody who was, like, talking about college or all these things. But my ward, everyone was a college graduate. And so these things became. Felt more accessible experiences, like seeing healthy relationships, seeing people have families. I feel like the church really gave my family the structure that we couldn't necessarily have because of socioeconomic status barriers or things that racially have impacted the way you interact with things, and just kind of expanded my view on things in a way that was very beneficial. And, yeah, it also. Yeah, again, my ward members in particular, I have to speak on that because they're like, these are some of the smartest people in the church. Okay. Booth School of Business is like, number one or number two.

John Dehlin [00:46:46] UChicago's business school. Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [00:46:48] The UChicago Law School is in the top five.

John Dehlin [00:46:51] Harvard, Stanford, you know.

Rachel Weaver [00:46:53] Yeah, all those. They're right up there. So these are some of the smartest people in the church who are coming to my ward and who are teaching me about the gospel, who are my young women's leaders, who are my seminary teachers. So I'm having people who are extremely intelligent being exposed to me in a way that like a black kid from the south side wouldn't experience. And people in my ward have more financial capital than me, and so they were able to do things for me. For example, in Chicago, we have a really crazy school system where you have to test to get into schools. And there's a test to get into, like, the really nice schools.

John Dehlin [00:47:27] Public.

Rachel Weaver [00:47:27] Yeah. Okay. So when I was in sixth grade, I was always a very bright student, like, 99 percentile in testing. And like, I think some of my ward members knew that and saw that in me, and I wanted to go to a selective middle school. But there's a test you have to take that's really hard, and if you don't take a test preparation class, there's no way you can pass it. And other kids in my ward that were just as smart as me were taking this test preparation class. And one of my ward members, like, paid for me to go to this test preparation class that was like $500, which sounds like nothing, but that was a lot of money to my family. Like, that would have not gotten paid for, but they paid for it, and I got it to the number school, middle school in the city of Chicago. So that's an example of. A very clear example of that. That was paid for by a ward member who saw my potential. And I was able to go to this really good school that impacted me. Being able to get into the number three high school at the state, which was what? Whitney M. Young Magna High School.

John Dehlin [00:48:25] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [00:48:26] The. The school that Michelle Obama went to.

John Dehlin [00:48:27] Oh, wow.

Rachel Weaver [00:48:28] Yes. So these things all added up over time. And they also paid for my test preparation class when I was. I had to take a different test in high school to get into a different school, and so they paid for that class as well. So these are direct experiences that I would not have. I wouldn't have had that opportunity. I mean, maybe my family would have. I don't even know if I would have known about the test preparation class if it wasn't for those ward members who are more tapped into those things than my family was. And so I think I was Definitely afforded opportunities that have affected me to this day. And to be able to perform academically better and get to the school that I got to that my high school completely changed the trajectory of my life socially, academically, especially when I look at my siblings and the schools they attended.

John Dehlin [00:49:14] Tell me if the. The idea of code switching. Can you tell our audience what code switching is? And does having lots of exposure to a lot of white people allow you to code switch? And then is that. Is that beneficial in navigating the broader US Kind of cultural landscape?

Code Switching and Racial Identity in Church

Rachel Weaver [00:49:34] Yeah, so code switching is basically, it's the way black people talk to each other. And we, you know, we might use slang or different terms or just even the intonation in my voice changes when I'm talking with those people versus when I have to talk with white people. It's a code switch in terms of we joke, we turn on our customer service voice, or I just speak in a way that I know that they will understand. And as well, for me, I experienced this a lot growing up talking in a way that I will be taken seriously, where people will believe that I am intelligent, because sometimes speaking like aave, which is African American vernacular English, or speaking the way that I would to my friends, is perceived as less intelligent, less having the ability to do something. And so black people code switch all the time because we know that that's how we're perceived if we choose to speak that way.

John Dehlin [00:50:23] Is it unfair to sort of say talking white versus kind of talking black? Is that.

Rachel Weaver [00:50:28] That is like the way that people do say it, right? Like, that is like the more cultural way. Like, black people who choose to not code switch and just speak, you know, more like don't use any aave, have been like, they're accused of talking white or things like that, which I was. Which is really interesting because if you hear me talk when I'm not on a podcast episode, that's like how I regularly talk to my friends and everyone. And even when I talk like that amongst other black people, because those are inner city people I was dealing with, like, real, like, inner city dealing with poverty. Like, those people felt like I was too white, which is interesting. And like, that definitely contributed to different racial identity issues. It doesn't really affect me now. And I don't really talk about it because I understand that that's a very subset of people. So anything that was varying from their experiences, which if you know anyone who lives in those situations, their life is just kind of tunnel vision in certain ways. And so anything that was outside of that Scope was viewed as like whiteness, the closest thing to whiteness. And people saw me that way at different times. In high school, like I worked in a very low income neighborhood at a grocery store, and I was called white all the time by my coworkers. Coworkers and different people.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] Black co workers, they would basically call you white.

Rachel Weaver [00:51:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:40] Because you had been around enough white people to be able to talk.

Rachel Weaver [00:51:43] Yeah. And I. Yeah, yeah. And it didn't make me. I. It didn't really ever bother me because I just knew that their exposure to certain things was limited. And so it wasn't in a judgment way and it never again, never really impacted me. I was just aware, like, we have different things that we're exposed to and that's just you and this is just me. But I know that that is a very formative experience for other black children who. But it's also because I grew up around black people. I had a black family. I wasn't. I didn't feel like my blackness was being taken away from me. When someone would say that, I was just like, yeah. Like I said, we're just exposed to different things. So I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:52:19] Nate, do you have anything to add about code switching or talking white or any of that kind of, you know.

Nate Byrd [00:52:24] Yeah. So with code switching, pretty much anyone who is part of a marginalized group does it in some sense or other. Because whiteness is the standard. Right. And we talked about this on our podcast recently about professionalism and how being professional is perceived as talking a certain way, acting a different way. And so if you come from a different culture, whether that's black, Latinx, Asian, there's a level of code switching that has to happen in order for you to kind of be acceptable, not necessarily accepted, but acceptable in white communities or in the white professional world.

John Dehlin [00:52:56] Yeah. And Mormons code switch in the sense that when a Mormon's talking to a Mormon, they're going to talk differently than the way they talk to a potential convert. Right. Or a never Mormon. Right. But I guess what I was asking is, is it advantageous to be exposed enough to white culture to be able to code switch when it's beneficial for job or education or other sorts of things.

Rachel Weaver [00:53:18] Yeah, it is. Like, it is because you're. I know black people who can't do it, like, can't. Because they just, like I said a lot, like, similar to the people I went to work, I worked with in high school. They didn't really. And even if they tried, it wasn't going to be believable by white people to, like, what they were trying to prove would not get across because it wasn't close enough to whiteness. Like, they hadn't been exposed enough to that. Because these are kids who only know black people go to school with only black people. That grocery store I worked at, if a white person walked in, we were all like, what are you doing here? Why are you on this side of town? And so those are like. And those are the kind of kids that I worked with. And so their exposure was a lot different than mine, which is, again, why I never got, like, it never really bothered me because we, again, we have different life experiences. I go to a white church. How many times a week? Like, my seminary teachers are white. A lot of my youth members are white who live in white families. And I go to school with white people. In my high school, I went to school with white people. And, you know, so it's like, this is every day for me, you know, this is not every day for you. So we're very different in that way. I just know that that's a lot of black people who grew up around white people. When they have that experience, it's a negative thing for them. So I just want to distinguish. That was not me.

John Dehlin [00:54:37] Yeah. So there's kind of two faces, I would imagine, at least two faces to this situation where on the one hand, you just enumerated a ton of benefits to you and your family for being raised in a white Mormon church.

Rachel Weaver [00:54:55] Yes, correct.

John Dehlin [00:54:57] And from kind of like my vantage point where I eventually learned that the church had a bunch of historical problems and racial problems and LGBT problems that challenged its validity. To me, you know, my. When I started to really struggle with the church, it was because I felt like it harmed marginalized communities and was founded in, you know, historical problems or, you know, non viable truth claims. We'll just say there's a whole other lens of a way to look at religion and. Or Mormonism, which is forget validity, forget truthfulness, forget historicity. If it. Whether it's Latin Americans or Filipinos or Africans or lower ses, people of all races in the United States, if it takes people out of, you know, if it gets people better educations, if it gets people more exposure to cultures and people and leaders and mentors that lift them up into higher SES situations with better education and better opportunity, it's just good. And whether it's true or not doesn't matter.

Rachel Weaver [00:56:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:19] And even if it's harmed people in the past, like discriminating against black people or Sometimes harms LGBT people or whatever. None of that matters. Cause, like, look at what it did for Rachel. Like, that's. Can you empathize with or what's your reaction in your faithful mindset to that argument?

Rachel Weaver [00:56:39] 100%. Yeah. Like, that's the way I feel. Like I could acknowledge that, like, yeah, there are harmful parts of the church, but there's also a ton of benefits that it provides people who maybe might not have that structure at their own home or who might not know how to do that, which again, is rooted in white supremacy. This idea of, like, what your family life needs to look like or it needs to have a disappearing household, blah, blah, blah. Black people have always been communal families. We've always been communal people. So we're trying to achieve this, like, level of like, what white people have defined as like, good family and like, what your life's supposed to look like is already problematic. But if it is allowing people to reach that type of lifestyle, which is like the goal for some people, it's good. It does have, you know, good, good parts, like, you know, by their fruits you shall know them. And so those are, those are good fruits. Those are good things and very, very positive for me and my family and other people in my ward who were afforded opportunities that they wouldn't have. Other people that I grew up with, that I saw their lives also changed.

John Dehlin [00:57:41] Yeah, yeah. And I guess I want to talk about that paradox later because I'm sure you started to have feelings of frustration with the church and it's got it. And I do, you know, and obviously I have a love hate relationship with the church, so I want to explore that tension later. But that's probably really real for you as well.

Rachel Weaver [00:58:00] Ye. Well, we can kind of start talking about it now because I don't really know when I started to be aware of certain things. So along with my church, again, so you can understand the demographics, the, the type of people that were in my ward. Okay. These are also, again, reminders. Some of the smartest people in the church. If you ever meet extremely intellectual people in the church, the way they go about the gospel is very different than the way the average Utah Mormon goes about the gospel. It has to be, has to be. Because they're, they're in circles of extremely intelligent people who will question, why are you religious? Why are you doing this? So those types of people have to make the church make sense for them. Now these are people in their 20s, 30s, who've already gone through their own up and down faith journeys that are teaching Me the gospel. Okay? So you can understand, this is how my ward is. These are people who also don't want to live in Utah. They hate Utah. They hate Utah culture. So they're trying to be in a ward that's more understanding, more accepting, which my war was more diverse. More diverse. Looking back, like, yeah, my war did things that would not fly in Utah. You know what I mean? And even a small thing, like, we didn't. Like, I didn't know that you had to wear a white shirt to pass a sacrament. I didn't know that until my mission, because my ward never cared about that. That's like. But, you know, in Utah, that's a very big rule. Like, you have to wear a white shirt and a tie or something. My ward didn't care. Show up and get ready to pass this trade. Like, if you're worthy, we don't care. Or like, closing the doors during sacrament. Really weird, random things I had no idea were, like, rules or, like, things people did. My ward didn't care about those things because they're just happy you're there. They don't really care about anything else. And just the ways that they operated very, very different than the way other wards operate. And so I say that to say that it was very common for us to discuss things, problems in the church. It was common for us to get deeper. We weren't just like. Like, I remember learning about, like, the enabling power of the atonement when I was, like, 14. You know what I mean? Like, these are not just. Not in a rude way, but it wasn't like the basics of the gospel of, like, A plus B equals C. It was like, how do we get to Z? I learned about polygamy early. I learned about blacks in the priesthood. I don't remember what conscious age, but I knew by 15. I knew that for sure. Because in seminary, we had a question box, and you could write out any question you would want and put it in. And then our seminary teachers would answer it. And this is when we would talk about all types of things, but we would talk about, again, the history of the church. We were talking about blacks in the priesthood. I knew about that Blacks in the Priesthood essay that was released in 2013. I knew about that in high school. I was aware of a lot of racial issues in the church just from, like, the people who were teaching me the gospel and through my own experiences, because, remember, I'm also coming up and developing my own identity, like, what I was talking about. And there were just little moments that made Me realize, I mean, I knew I was black in this white ass ward, but. And like, I could tell that the people in my ward were not aware of black people. And there was always a difference between people who had just moved to my ward within their first two years, people who had lived there for like 10 years. There was a very big difference in the way they treated me and the way they interacted with me. A small example was during youth group. We were playing this, like, water game and I just got my hair pressed. And what does that mean for those of you? Okay, my hair is naturally curly. If you've seen a picture of it, it's very big and curly. But I just, like, had a. I went to the salon and they like, flat ironed it. Very long process, you know, something I did all the time. And they were playing this game where you're like, getting squirted with a water gun. And I didn't want to play because I didn't want to mess up my hair. And everyone's like, oh, come on, Rachel, stop being like a Debbie Downer. Blah, blah. And a white person's not going to understand, like, why I would genuinely sit out of a game so that my hair is not wet. This is something really small. But, like, another black person would not pressure me to play a game with water because I had just gotten my hair done. That is hair is very important to black people and black women in particular. And everyone's like, no, come on, come on, play. And I'm like, okay. And so I told the young men's leader, I was like, hey, I'm gonna play. You just can't. If I like the mess of the game where you get like, they spray you just don't spray my hair. That's all I ask. I have everywhere else, and my hair was only like this long, so there's a whole lot of body to spray. And he sprays the back of my head. And I remember getting so upset. I think I was like 13 or 14 probably. And I remember getting so upset, like, I stormed out of the youth group. I was angry and I just felt like this man does not understand, like, why this was a problem. It wasn't like. Cause to him, he's like, I'll just go wash your hair. And I'm like, sir, I am black. Like, that is not gonna work for me. Like, I just spent money. I remember asking him, this is back when I was really feisty as well. And so I told him, I'm like, are you gonna pay for me to get My hair done again? No, he wasn't. And it really frustrated me because I just felt misunderstood and not seen. That's just a small example of feeling like these people do not understand me or what's going on in my life. And again, I just kept developing who I was and being more progressive, very aware that I was a progressive person and was aware that this, the majority church was pretty white. Because then when I was 15, I went to Efy. So. Yeah, in Chicago or Provo, Utah. Yeah. So my ward paid for everybody to go to efy. So I came out here and I saw what the majority church was like. I was at this point, I'm aware of like church history. I'm aware of things and now I'm seeing what everybody else is like. So I'm like, okay, I'm getting it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm connecting the dots. I'm developing who I am and understanding the context in which I exist in this space.

Awakening to Racial Issues in the LDS Church

John Dehlin [01:03:19] Was there an initial like Dorothy going to Oz? If that is a no, no.

Rachel Weaver [01:03:24] Because my brother went to EFY and my brother is like two years older than me.

John Dehlin [01:03:28] You weren't going there.

Rachel Weaver [01:03:29] He went at 15. So he came. He went at 15. So I was 13.

John Dehlin [01:03:33] And he came back saying what?

Rachel Weaver [01:03:35] Oh, it was the best experience. It was so great. I loved efy. Blah, blah. And the photos are all white people, which like, I assumed, you know what I mean? Like, again, that's why I say my growing up was this very like strange going back and forth experience. Because my home stake was also not majority white though, because we have four Spanish wards, four English wards. Two of the English wards are in like white areas because again, Chicago's segregated. And then the other two English wards were in black areas. So white people were the minority. In my stake, it was four Spanish speaking wards and then two wards that had like a majority black youth. And mine was in one of those who had about 50, 50 black and non black youth. And so again, these very like, I'm aware that like, again, leadership is always white, the people leading things are always white. So like I'm aware that most people are white, but this youth experience is unique. Then I go to EFY and seeing like what the majority looks like. So it's like all coming together in this like back and forth experience. And I remember when I was about 15, 16, that's when I started being extremely vocal about racial things in life in general and in the church. I remember they had like some. We had a state conference. So this time is Again, the same family. The bishop, he became the stake president at this time. So they had like a 70 come and they met with, like, a bunch of black members or something. You know, the church was doing weird things. So they'll like, go to a stake and be like, let's talk to the black people. And they did that. And my brother and my mom went, like, they were invited to go talk to the 70, and I wasn't invited. And I was like, wow, I'm offended. Like, I was like, wow, they didn't invite me. And at this time, my family's so close to the missionaries. So I was talking with one of the sisters about it, and she was like, why were you mad? So you could go and tell them about how hard it is to be black? And that made me. I was like, okay, wow. And I'm like, yeah, maybe I did want to tell them about that, because most people outside of this damn church, outside of the city of Chicago are not black. Most of them are white people, and they don't understand what it's like for us. Even in my 30% black ward, like, what the hell?

John Dehlin [01:05:37] Was she sort of implying that you've got it really good and you've got nothing?

Rachel Weaver [01:05:41] No, she was implying that I'm always talking about it.

Nate Byrd [01:05:42] It.

Rachel Weaver [01:05:43] Oh, like, I've always got something to say about race stuff. Oh, that's what she was implying, which was true because I told you I'm very vocal now at this point. Like, I am talking about race all the time. I'm like, why is blacks in the priesthood like this? I knew that at this point, I knew that only 3% of the church in the United States was black. I'm like, why is that? Like, I'm asking these questions and I'm. It. I didn't understand it. It didn't sit right with me. It was confusing to me. Why is majority of this area black, but majority of the ward is not black? Like, we're doing pretty good. But this is. Again, if that's all I knew, this still isn't good. You know what I'm saying? Like, if I had gone somewhere else and I got to my ward, so everyone else was like, this is amazing. This is great. Because they're coming from Utah wards where there's zero black people. And I'm like, this is what I've grown up with. I'm like, yeah, we can increase this, especially considering the population around us. There's way more black people that could be coming to this church every single week. So, again, I'm very aware at this age. And I'm also like developing my social justice identity outside of church and my activities in school with my friends. And so I just remember that experience with a missionary. I like went to Facebook and like wrote this long thing and like, I could show it to you later. I like wrote this thing. Like I had a missionary tell me this. And that's just very rude to dismiss my experience as a black woman. Again, I'm like 15 years old and I'm like going off on Facebook. And then the other missionaries, they all have Facebook at this time. Our mission was like a beta mission for that. And the other, the elders were like, they saw it and they showed it to the sister she liked and it text me and was like, oh, I'd love to chat, Rachel, I'm sorry if I offended you. We went to the Dunkin Donuts. I remember so clearly. She gave me this big ass jar of jelly beans and was like trying to like apologize for it. And I'm just like, you don't get it. It doesn't like what you're saying. Like you meant what you said. And this is a half assed apology because you sound dumb now and you look bad and you're serving black people. You need help. So like, like, this is me at 15, just like, not with the shits. I was just like, I. I was like, okay, this apology doesn't mean anything to me. I think you don't really mean it. I think you don't understand race relations. You don't understand black people. And I'm not gonna spend my time here much further. That's what I basically said to her.

Core Problems with the Church as a Black Member

John Dehlin [01:07:45] So as a young Mormon woman who was black, whose family, by your own admission, had benefited tremendously from being raised Mormon, what would your, what do your top three to 10 complaints have been when you're 15 or 16 about the church and race and black people, the

Rachel Weaver [01:08:08] history with the race in the church? Because also at this time I learned about what they said about interracial marriage because I was like a researcher type person. I was reading shit online, all types of stuff. And I'm like, okay, why did they. Cause this is also. I'm forgetting, my brother also tried to date a white girl in our stake and her dad, who was a member but left the church, was like, oh, you can't date her because the church says you can't date interracially. My brother's like 17. So like, this is all, all these experiences, not just mine, but the experiences my siblings are having, having are impacting me. And so I had a problem with the way they address, like, race relations. Overall. I felt like there was not enough said about it. And considering the church's history, I also felt like there should have been more said. I don't think I was at the point where I was like, they need to apologize. But I definitely, like, recognized that something needs to be done. I also was concerned with how few black people there were. We're 13% of the population in the United States. Why are we not equaling that?

John Dehlin [01:09:01] Right.

Rachel Weaver [01:09:01] Why is it not proportionate to the population of the entire United States? LDS Church, pretty much. And so I feel like I didn't really have anything outside of that. That was really it. And also the interpersonal relationships with white people who had never interacted with black people before. That's why I said the members of my ward, who have been there for a while, they made mistakes. They had their issue. They had the time where they were uncomfortable in Chicago. And so by the time they knew me, though, they were better. But then there were people who were just now moving into my ward, had never lived in Chicago. They're now called to the young women. And you, you are in the ghetto. I'm sorry, you are going to the ghetto to pick people up to come to Mutual. And they're saying that they're scared vocally. And it's, what are we supposed to think? What are the youth supposed to think? You're talking shit about to where people live. This is literally where people live. Breathe. This is their home. And you're coming to pick them up. And we're hearing that you're talking crap to other people about how I don't want to go in that neighborhood to go pick up this youth at 9 o' clock or drop them off after Mutual. This is what's going on in my ward, right? So, like, that's why I started becoming like, this person of, like, that's not okay. That's not right. Like, just these little moments where. Yeah, I just was like, that's not okay. And that was a big problem for me was the people who had just moved to Chicago and weren't aware of how to work with black people or. I had one young women's leader. I felt like, who. You know, she worked with black people in school for one year and she acted like she knew us. And I'm like, that's good for you. I'm like, you don't know me. You don't know what it's like to really be with black People. You've lived your entire life in Utah around white people or wherever the hell. It was not diverse. And you now work. You've worked with black kids for one year, and you think you know us. Yeah. So, like, and these are, again, young women's leaders, young men leaders that I'm having these interactions with where I'm like. Because the majority of the time, the people they called to working young men and young women were younger people who had just moved there. The people with bigger families had different callings. I felt like because of the way that my ward was set up, I always felt like the young women under 30 or early 30s were called to be young women's leaders. And same with the men.

John Dehlin [01:11:08] It makes total sense. But when I'm thinking about my Mormon teenage years, I'm, like, looking at my youth leaders and saying, what am I supposed to believe? Okay, I'll believe that. What am I supposed to do? Okay, I'll do that. The idea of, like, being aware of a bunch of problems and feeling like I even had any space to critique or judge my youth leaders feels super foreign to me. Oh, yeah, because that's just for me. I was in obedience. Everything is true and obey everything mindset. That's a very different experience you had.

Rachel Weaver [01:11:42] Yeah, no, I was not that way. I remember one time I got into an argument with my young women's leaders because they, like, were trying to. Okay, so we're having, like, little young women beef. Me and this, some of us and the girls. This is young women beef. Okay. And she, like, came in all trying to. It just felt very condescending, everything that she did. And I told her that I was like, you. It's very condescending. And I remember I was so dramatic in my young women's years. My young women's leaders, I do love them now. We still talk and stuff, so shout out to y' all if you're listening, and they'll attest to this. I to. Would love, love to hear their version of it, because I was dramatic. I really was. I was like, you guys are being condescending to black people. You don't take us seriously. You don't think that I'm intelligent. I was saying these things at, like, 15 years old. I stopped going to church one time for, like, a month because I wanted to make a stance on, like, you were. I was so upset. I'm not even kidding. I. I just wanted to be known. Like, this is. That was, like, my attitude. Like, I had to. When I felt like something wasn't Right or was wrong. I wanted people to know. And I felt like, again, when I felt like she was being condescending, I had to do something about that. And so, again, because I grew up in a ward where they're empowering me to ask questions. They're empowering me to call out the issues that I see. They're empowering me to not look past. I was never taught to, like, oh, don't pay attention to that. I was like, yeah, let's, like, questions like, blacks in the priesthood. Let's talk about it. Let's welcome that into our classroom conversation. And let's talk about. And, like, you know, the apologetic things or the. The truth justifications for all these things. I learned that probably by the time I was 18, because that's the kind of ward I grew up in and the type of members that they were, because, again, they had also done that for themselves, so they wanted to, like, arm me with that. Like, I grew up in a ward where my leaders would say, sex is great. Sex is awesome. You just can't do it until you're married. Like, I grew up in a very different way than other people. I was not uncomfortable to talk about that. Sex was a conversation that we had as youth, not in, like, an awkward way, but in a. Yeah, we're gonna say the word, and this is what it is. Like, my bishop be like, that's the best thing that happened to me and my wife. But, like, this is something that you explore at that time in your life. So I just felt very lucky in that way. Like, especially when I got to BYU and seeing the way other people were raised in terms of, like, learning the gospel. But it allowed me to feel like, yeah, I'm gonna say something to my leaders because of my personality and the way that I felt empowered in my ward to, like, call things out and, like, stand up for thoughts that I had that weren't that, you know, that other people also had. Like, there were other youth who felt, you know, church things were weird or whatever, because, again, these are also their parents. Right? That's like, if I stayed a progressive LDS person and had kids, my kids would know about that in high school. It wouldn't be something that they would be uncomfortable with. And so these are also, like, my youth counterparts are also. We're talking about the same things. Like, me and my best friend used to talk about. Like, this in high school is when, like, the whole women in the priesthood thing was going on. And that was happening, like, a general conference. And that protest is happening.

John Dehlin [01:14:37] Yeah, Ordained women?

Rachel Weaver [01:14:38] Yes, ordained women. All of that. Yeah. Like we were reading all that. We would talk about it and like, we were like, yeah, we're in support of this. Like, women should have the priesthood. Why don't they? Like, these are conversations I was having before I was 18, because those were the leaders that this is the stuff they were talking about. And so that's what I ended up caring about too. And so I've always felt like I've dealt with my issues with the church since a young age. It's never been something that kind of just crept up on me. It was like, slowly, over time, I always felt things that bothered me. There are always things that I felt like weren't right because I was aware of them at such a young age.

John Dehlin [01:15:14] So really quickly, like in Mormonism, there are certain areas, certain pockets geographically. So like, let's just say the Bethesda, Maryland area, the Cambridge, Massachusetts area, Brooklyn or Manhattan, New York or Berkeley or Oakland, California, these pockets of progressive or liberal Mormonism where you're gonna get what we've often called inoculated, where you're gonna get small doses of exposure to problems in our history, problems in our culture. And if you get inoculated in that way, some say that that strengthens your immune system to anti Mormonism or factual church history later, because you're like, oh, I learned about that when I was 15.

Rachel Weaver [01:16:01] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:16:02] So can I just review a few of those things with you? And I just want to hear, did you learn it?

Rachel Weaver [01:16:07] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:16:07] For each of these things, I'm going to mention, did you learn it and then how did you reconcile it? Is that okay?

Rachel Weaver [01:16:13] Yes.

Priesthood Ban, Intermarriage Teachings, and Racist Doctrine

John Dehlin [01:16:13] Okay. So the idea that like Joseph Smith tried to play both sides of the fence on slavery, but there were parts of Joseph Smith's history where he was sort of pro slavery or anti abolitionist. Would you have known that?

Rachel Weaver [01:16:29] No, I didn't know the both sides. I only knew that he was like pro slavery, like anti slavery. Sorry. Okay. You know, and that was kind of what I was told. I didn't know, like, the other side.

John Dehlin [01:16:38] Okay, that's good.

Rachel Weaver [01:16:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:41] So that. So then there's kind of the really prominent, like all the horrible things Brigham Young said in the Journal of Discourses, that, that calling black people filthy and loathsome and the whole thing about the pre existence and them not being worthy and that if a white man mixes with a black woman like Brigham Young, that a javelin should be stabbed through his heart. Just really horrendous, awful things. Were you made aware of those types of statements?

Rachel Weaver [01:17:09] Yes, So I wasn't aware it was from Brigham Young. I was aware of things more from Bruce R. McConkie era and those kind of comments, but I was aware that the. That sentiment was taught. And I was. The idea was like, that was in the past because church leaders are imperfect and they're gonna make mistakes. And, you know, those were men of their time. So, yeah, they. Like, I was kind of the idea, like, they could be racist, like, they were men of their time, and that's kind of like the justification that I was taught. But at the end of the day, the gospel was still true, even though these people who were saying things weren't okay.

John Dehlin [01:17:43] So that. That makes sense. And then the idea, obviously, that prior to 1978, black men could not hold the priesthood and black men and women

Rachel Weaver [01:17:55] could not enter the temple.

John Dehlin [01:17:56] Yeah, you would have been made aware of that. And the way you would have justified that or you. The way you have been taught to justify that would be what?

Rachel Weaver [01:18:06] Similar. Like, it was just a policy that wasn't okay. And now we're. Yeah, that was pretty much it. Like, that was the past. And one of my leaders trying to talk about religion of a different color a little bit, which I don't know. I think that's by Paul Reeves, who's a historian, and kind of the idea of, like, that's what they had to do at the time to get by basically so that they could be accepted into mainstream whiteness. You know what I mean? That's kind of like the idea, like, it wasn't. It was the best decision. That was the decision they had to make at that time, which, like, made sense to me because, I mean, everywhere in America, like we talked about earlier, does have a racist past, and everyone does. Has done something in varying levels. Right. But a lot of institutions have a very poor racial history with black people in particular. And the church isn't exempt from that. Like, my ward wasn't trying to make the church seem like they're not exempt from that. More. It's like, yeah, they. They are a part of that. And really, though, focusing on, like, what it means now, focusing on what it's bringing you now, what goodness does the church bring now? How can we show people the goodness that it has now? How can I be a pioneer? One of my youth conferences was focused on pioneer stuff. We did, like, a mini trek and. But like, again, four of my wards are. Four of the wards in my stake are Spanish speaking. So most of these people, they are pioneers. And that was the theme. It wasn't Talking about pioneer ancestry. It wasn't even talking about like all these old ass white people who came out here to the west. It was like, you are a pioneer in your family. Like that was the focus on how can we continue to fortify and build up the church with people who are diverse, who are like us and to share this. So that was kind of like the antidote that I was fed and like was aware of and like kept working towards it. Didn't stop me from continuing to think and like question and be confused. But it was definitely like. And I never felt like I couldn't talk about it or couldn't say what I wanted to.

John Dehlin [01:20:03] It's idyllic really.

Rachel Weaver [01:20:04] Yeah. So I mean there were again like the leaders who would say stuff now and then, but I felt very empowered to say what I wanted to.

John Dehlin [01:20:11] So the teaching about in the pre existence with all the spirits up in heaven that black people were less. Were the, Were the spirits up in heaven that were less valiant?

Rachel Weaver [01:20:22] I didn't know that until they were fence sitters. Yeah, I didn't know that until by. I didn't know that one in particular just because there's again varying levels of how much you hear and how much detail. And I felt like I didn't hear those exact details until I started like doing my own deeper dives. Because at the same time like I wanted this all to be true up to this point in high school. By the time I'm in high school, I'm at a point where I knew I went to serve remission because of the goodness of the church had brought me and my new again. Although I'm having these experiences where I'm saying how I feel or questioning things, I'm also having huge spiritual experiences. I went to EFY and that I'm like, anyone who's been to EFY knows you're drinking the Kool Aid real heavy.

John Dehlin [01:21:01] That's when you came to Provo?

Rachel Weaver [01:21:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:21:02] Well, let's go back to that.

Rachel Weaver [01:21:03] So you come to Provo when I was 15.

John Dehlin [01:21:06] Yeah. And it's super white. But how was your experience?

Rachel Weaver [01:21:09] It was great. I actually, it was a very strangely like I had a girl who's half black, half white in my group and we became really good friends in my like family or company. That's what they're called? Yeah, my company. That's what they were called. And it was a good experience. I loved it. And I felt like my, my leaders were really cool. Like they were just dope ass people that I was like, oh my gosh I want to be like them. And it's funny because one of my leaders now has, like, left the church and from this first year, and they're queer now. And so, I mean, we're still friends and stuff, but it's just funny to see our journeys together. I love seeing that from people that I've known when I was, like, super iron rod. And now everybody's just on, like, different paths. But, yeah, that's so I felt very empowered. Like, this is what I want to do. Like, singing the EFY medley. I'm, like, tearing, like, bawling ugly cry, like, feeling the spirit of, like, this is true. This is like. And that's why I was fighting so hard, because when I, you know, it's kind of like this. What's the word in your brain when you're having a. Oh, my gosh. When you're going back and forth?

John Dehlin [01:22:10] Ambivalence or. Oh, my God.

Rachel Weaver [01:22:13] Cognitive dissonance.

John Dehlin [01:22:14] Cognitive dissonance.

Rachel Weaver [01:22:15] So I felt like that's the best way to describe, like, being black in the church, especially in my teen years. Like, I'm going back and forth between having these amazing spiritual experiences, going to girls camp. Right. Where I'm bonding with people and having experiences where we're talking about God and Christ and everyone's talking about how hard life is, but how God has brought us through or Christ has shown mercy. Right. And so I'm having these strong spiritual experiences through youth conferences as well. Right. And so this while I'm also, like, learning these other things. So it's like the perfect combination almost. And when I left high school, I was still very much determined to go on a mission. Very much so, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:56] So the spiritual experiences made it so you didn't feel motivated to ever tip the scale towards non belief. You would want to talk about the hard stuff in a measured way.

Rachel Weaver [01:23:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:23:08] But never to the point where it would tip you to non belief.

Rachel Weaver [01:23:11] No.

John Dehlin [01:23:11] Is that right?

Rachel Weaver [01:23:12] Yes. I was very much like, this is true. But, like, let's understand this more. That's how I was taught. Like, it's okay to understand more. It's okay to ask questions. It's okay to, like, dive deeper. But, like, don't ever let it take you to the point of leaving the church.

John Dehlin [01:23:25] Okay. And really quickly. Just a couple other quick things. So the. The teaching that, you know, black people and white people should never intermarry or even date. Had you. Had you been exposed to that?

Rachel Weaver [01:23:39] Yes, I read it. What's actually really funny, I was so wild looking back in high School. I'm like, who was I? Because I remember a boy that I had a Crush on @efy. I, like, brought it up to him. We were, like, texting after efy. I was like, do you know about this? Like, what's your like thoughts? Pretty much. And he was like, yeah, like, church leaders in the past said it, but I. And he's also a white guy. So I'm like, yeah, I gotta know this, because if you're feeling me, like, I gotta know if you're okay with this, basically. And, you know, he was like, that's what they said in the past. But, like, it's no. Like, obviously we don't believe that anymore. Because in the statement, I think what I read, when I read it, was like the original thing that the church used to teach, but then it was like, now we teach this, this and this. Like, people of all races and whatnot are come together in the church. And so I was aware of that as well. Again, also from the experience of my brother having that dad say that about, like, you can't date him because the church doesn't encourage interracial marriage or intercultural marriage.

John Dehlin [01:24:32] But you wrote that off as just mistakes of men.

Rachel Weaver [01:24:34] Yes. Like, that was a mistake of the past. Like, that make sense that that was of the time. But, like, they don't teach that anymore. Okay. Like, a lot of emphasis was put on, like, what is being done right now that is not taught anymore. That is not. And again, these are things that I never heard in my congregation. No one in my ward ever said these things. These are things that I heard from other people or heard out and about or on the Internet.

John Dehlin [01:24:56] One of the pieces of information that struck my brain like a lightning bolt was learning about Elijah Abel and that actually black men did receive the priesthood when Joseph Smith was alive.

Rachel Weaver [01:25:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:25:08] And then later, Brigham Young took it away. Did you get exposure to that?

Rachel Weaver [01:25:12] Yes, I did.

John Dehlin [01:25:13] How was that empowering?

Rachel Weaver [01:25:14] Yeah, empowering to know that it was wrong. Right. Like, knowing, like, this happened before. Again, it's all the way that you're taught things in the way it's kind of presented to you. And it's presented to me like, yeah, Elijah Abel got the priesthood, and then it was taken away because this was a flaw of man. And so clearly it was a flaw of man because it's not from God, because black people used to be able to get it. And so it was an empowering piece of knowledge for me. And, like, someone that I held close to me.

John Dehlin [01:25:43] Like, I'm so happy you had this experience versus a super racist, offensive experience. But it's like two churches. Because there's no way, even in 2023, you know, Russell M. Nelson or Dallas jokes would get up and say, hey, you know, that priesthood ban, it was not of God, and Elijah Abel got the priesthood. And that was a good thing. And it was bad that it was ever taken away. Like, even in 2023, the church talk about code switching. The general authorities would never, never, never, never say that publicly in general conference. But that's what you were learning in a Mormon context because you had the privilege of being raised in a progressive Mormon word.

Rachel Weaver [01:26:25] Yes. Which is why I felt like. Like, when I get to talking about byu, I was like, what the hell is this? Yeah, I was like. I was like, this is not the church I was raised in. Y' all are different. Because again, if I went to EFY and I'm like, wow, it was super white. My ward's like, yeah, I was super white. Like, my war, I grew up just very different. And again, my best friend, who her dad is the stake president, he is married to a Mexican woman. Right. Like. Like a lot of interracial. Like, it was just a very different experiences. Not saying there weren't moments when, like I said, I did still feel, like, that whiteness impact and, like, overall feeling that exudes from the church, no matter where you go and how much they try to erode it. Right. Like, I think that's what my ward was working towards, taking that out. And now we're 100% there. Because my ward now has had, like, over 100 converts, and they're mostly from, like, Nigeria and Ghana. And so my ward is extremely diverse.

John Dehlin [01:27:20] They had to split it your homeward in Chicago.

Rachel Weaver [01:27:22] My home ward in Chicago. Yeah. My home ward now is so different than the ward I grew up in, which was already different than the most. Most wards. But it's even more so different now. Like, when you go, you're like, oh, wow, this congregation is 50% black. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:33] Okay. Couple more quick things. So there's the whole, like, Ezra Taft Benson, Mormon apostle in the 60s, you know, criticizing Martin Luther King, calling him a communist, literally fighting the civil rights movement.

Rachel Weaver [01:27:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:27:48] And basically Mormonism opposing the civil rights movement. Would you have been.

Rachel Weaver [01:27:52] No, I learned that in college.

John Dehlin [01:27:53] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [01:27:54] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:27:54] Okay. And then there's something that's just really basic, which is the Book of Mormon curse that basically, you know, Laman and Lemuel are acting wicked, and so God curses them with dark skin in the Book of Mormon. That's not Blackness per se. But it's equating dark skin not just with wickedness, but the Book of Mormon goes on. And this is in the 2023 version of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon goes on to say God made them black or dark skinned so that they would be loathsome and unappealing to the white Nephites. So like that's some horrendous stuff that we would immediately associate with Native Americans. But in my mind a black, black Mormon could easily, you know, have questions about that.

Rachel Weaver [01:28:43] Right.

John Dehlin [01:28:43] For them as well. Did any of that as you're reading the Book of Mormon, going to seminary, going to efy.

Rachel Weaver [01:28:48] So it was talked about in seminary and from what I remember it was very much like translation issue. That was what the focus was that like the translation was obviously interpreted wrong. I'm being honest. This is what I was taught and obviously I don't think you ever heard that one. Yeah, it was like there was some type of like, like translation problem. Like the way it was originally written might not be the way that Joseph Smith, like this was the only word he could come up with for it.

Nate Byrd [01:29:14] The heavenly wi fi. Disconnected while Joseph, I guess or just

Rachel Weaver [01:29:17] like just the idea of like it wasn't a literal like skin blackening. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:29:24] Between the curse and the mark of the curse. And I don't remember that from high school.

Rachel Weaver [01:29:29] I do remember me talking about this, my friend freshman year with my. Actually Hank Smith was my teacher my first semester. I know, right? And I remember BYU and I went to him. I remember again, I used to be so wild. And so I went to him before the next class where I knew we were going to talk about second Nephi 2:25. I think that's it. Shout me out if that's still the right verse. I don't know, but it's around there where this is said. And I went up to him and I was like, so how are you going to teach this the next class? I was like, I just want to know because if it's going to be taught crazy, I'm not going to come. That's what I asked. Like I said I used to be so wild. And he pretty much like, you know, talked to me after class about like, oh, I don't think that this really meant dark skin. He was talking about like how it was talking about Native American people. Like, and just like they were just like they were different people. Like they knew like these were native people and these were like people from the, you know, from Jerusalem or The Chosen Land or whatever. And so we had a conversation about that before my. Before he taught it. So I wanted to make sure nothing crazy was gonna be said in a BYU classroom, which, again, as I talk more about the end of my high school years and how I really started transforming into being very aware of the church and very aware of its issues, and still being an extremely strong believer, though.

John Dehlin [01:30:40] Okay, so the Book of Mormon stuff with dark skin and cursings, you just wrote off as some sort of translation error.

Rachel Weaver [01:30:49] And I wasn't reading the Book of Mormon intensely at this point in my life. I'm going to be. I didn't read the full Book of Mormon cover to cover until I went on my mission. So I thought, okay, yeah, that works. It didn't fester longer. The thing that festered the most was, like, the priesthood and temple ban. That was what has always sat the longest with me.

John Dehlin [01:31:06] And I guess one more thing I have to ask you about, because this is about informed consent, right? This is about, like, do we tell black people, really what our history is? Right. And should they. Should they be told? Do we tell them?

Rachel Weaver [01:31:19] Yeah. And some of the things. I'm not even sure if I was told or if I brought them up myself, I learned them randomly and was like, hey, what about this? Because it felt very much. I mean, it was accepted to do that kind of stuff in my ward.

John Dehlin [01:31:30] So the last one that comes to mind is the curse of Cain, which, again, we maybe should have started with this, but it's in the Book of Abraham, it's in the Book of Moses, and it's in the Doctrine and Covenants. It's like, Joseph Smith couldn't produce scripture that didn't include the curse of Cain. And it's the idea that Cain killed Abel and God put. Put. Made him black as punishment and as a way to set him apart. And then black people are descendants of Cain. Joseph Smith believed it. Brigham Young believed it. Mormon prophets believed it. It's in Mormon scripture. Did you ever have to think and talk about that?

Rachel Weaver [01:32:01] I definitely knew about it, but it wasn't, like, something I focused on, if that makes sense. Like, I might have heard it in passing, because I remember learning more about it at BYU once I got here with other black students and things like that. So I say high school years. I'm gonna go. No, though.

John Dehlin [01:32:14] Okay, Nate, just anything you want to say about all these topics I just brought up. Just anything that came to your mind,

Nate Byrd [01:32:21] just similar to what I said in my interview? And, like, none of these things were taught to me, you know, by. By either church leaders or by my parents, which, you know, in later years kind of felt like a betrayal to me because it's like, why wouldn't you talk about these things? But I guess they just felt like it was better to just kind of leave it unsaid and focus on what was, quote, unquote, important. And I remember the only thing I ever learned about the priesthood ban was like, five minutes at the beginning of class, they read Official Declaration 2 and said, oh, this is the past. Now we're here. And Official Declaration 2. And now moving on to the next part.

Rachel Weaver [01:32:52] Oh, yeah, Official declaration. I forgot about that.

Nate Byrd [01:32:56] Even in seminary, it was never. Never taught. So, I mean, that was just my experience. So it's pretty. It's pretty amazing to know that you knew all these things beforehand.

Rachel Weaver [01:33:03] Oh, yeah.

Nate Byrd [01:33:04] We're like, inoculated.

John Dehlin [01:33:05] I was going to ask you, Nate, were you. Are you jealous hearing that? Rach, even though Rachel wasn't exposed to everything, are you feeling a little envious about how much she was exposed to and how much she was able to talk about this stuff, even if it wasn't everything?

Nate Byrd [01:33:22] I don't know if I would say envious. Envious. More just. I don't know. I've kind of made peace with the fact that my upbringing was extremely different from pretty much anybody that I know. The best way I can parallel it is if you've ever read Educated by Tara Westover. My upbringing was similar in a lot of ways. There's a lot of parallels.

John Dehlin [01:33:42] Kind of Christian fundamentalism.

Nate Byrd [01:33:44] Yeah, almost. But, like, mixed in with Mormonism and then some black nationalism. It was a very interesting upbringing. So I wouldn't say that I'm envious. I'm just listening to that experience and being like, wow, that is completely different from mine.

John Dehlin [01:33:56] Okay, got it. Were you gonna say something about the official decoration?

Rachel Weaver [01:34:01] Oh, yeah, that's part of. I just forgot about it.

John Dehlin [01:34:04] Tell our never Mormons what that is.

Rachel Weaver [01:34:05] It' basically like the churches, what they. Their official statement that they made when they. I don't know what word to use. I'll say it's like an amendment.

John Dehlin [01:34:14] All worthy. It's. It was 1978.

Rachel Weaver [01:34:16] Yeah. When they needed to go ahead. Oh, and they just like, the priesthood ban was lifted. Pretty much like that.

John Dehlin [01:34:22] Instead of saying, like, now we're going to give black people the priesthood, it's more like now all worthy people can receive. You know what I mean? It's almost like they didn't want to. Right.

Rachel Weaver [01:34:31] Yeah. So. And yeah, the only Thing I want to again kind of start transitioning into is. So in high school, I also was outside of church. I was very social justice girly. Like that was my identity. In high school, me and my friends, we started our first gender equality club. Like my best friend and one of our other friends in our friend group were the co founding presidents. So we were very out here. I was going to protest. I remember my senior year I went to so many protests. I went to like the Chicago Teachers Union 1. I remember I went to the first women's march that they had in Chicago. And then we were always protesting school funding inequality in the city of Chicago just because there was like 5% that we were like all the other schools. Yeah, it was like we were looking for this other 5% of money for like cause Chicago public schools was like majority black and brown students. And like the inequality between my high school that was. It went to in other high schools, I was always. I got in school suspension because we like did a walkout and I got an in school suspension. I felt so badass. Like that was just like me in high school. Genuinely like, these are the things I cared about and was, you know, it was also comfortable to talk about that over the pulpit though. Like, I felt comfortable bringing that up to my young women's leaders as like, these are my passions and things I cared about. Because again, remind you, my best friend who's also in this ward with me, is doing like 90% of the things that I do and talk about and care about right there with me, who is also like now the stake president's daughter. Right. So it was very. This was accepted things. I felt like. And maybe other people in the ward just thought we were wild and didn't say anything to us. But it was very. That was kind of like my life. And like my family saw me as like this very like aggressive person because I was basically eating the heads off of anybody who was coming at me with some crazy in non inclusive conservative conversation. I was like, get that out of here. Like, that's not gonna work around me. And that just kind of became who I was. And I definitely brought that identity with me to byu and yeah, what about

John Dehlin [01:36:41] LGBT issues in high school?

Rachel Weaver [01:36:42] Yes. So I was always very like open and like accepting. I think that didn't one of the conversations. I remember this. Me and my best friend had this conversation at girls camp and she was like, do you ever think that the church will let gay people get married in the temple? And she was like, I think they will. And I Said, I don't think they will. And it wasn't, because that's not what I think. I just at that point was like, the church will never change their opinion on that. It doesn't matter what I think. I could think they should. They need to do that tomorrow. But I don't think the church will ever change that. So I think it was always something I was aware of and cared about, but it didn't really become a pressing thing. That became an issue in my faith journey until later, as well as coming to BYU and really understanding what that meant, because I don't think I fully understood how the church had policies against them. Like, I was aware of the policy. High school time was also when they made the policy about, like, not getting baptized.

John Dehlin [01:37:33] The exclusion policy.

Rachel Weaver [01:37:34] The exclusion policy, yes. So that was the same time.

John Dehlin [01:37:37] But again, 2015.

Rachel Weaver [01:37:38] Yes. That didn't resonate fully with me because I didn't fully understand what the church's stance was beforehand, if that makes sense, because I was still so young. But then when I went on my mission, came to BYU and started learning more, that really started to sit in and bother me even more. So that's later on my journey. But in high school, it wasn't as pressing. Like, definitely important, but not in the same way that racial things were.

John Dehlin [01:38:01] Yeah. Yeah. As I started reading your outline about your social. Your activism in high school, it almost made me feel like you and Sane Ciali were kind of like soul sisters on different levels.

Rachel Weaver [01:38:14] That's why you joke that we are soul sisters, because that's. I love that girl. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:17] Well, you guys had parallel lives in the sense of both in high school, around the same era, being kind of social justice warriors. Right?

Rachel Weaver [01:38:25] Yeah. It was something that was important to me and something that I valued, and I wasn't gonna let that go just because I was lds and I felt like I'm definitely gonna make that happen. Yeah. And we would always tell our friends, my friends in high school. Cause again, my best friend's in the same friend group with me. We don't be like, we are not your average ld LDS people. Most of them are not going to be like us. First of all, I'm black. That's almost not gonna happen. And she's, like, half Mexican. Right. So I'm like, that's also not gonna happen. Like, we're both brown women who are liberal as hell and fighting for social justice. This is not the average LDS person. We promise you guys. We tell our friends all the time. We're like, this is not common do not expect this. When you go out and meet, like, Mormon people, do not expect that. Because we were going to college, we're like, you might need some more sermons. They're not gonna be like, us. We promise that. I was like, I promise you that. I'm like, I listen to rap music. I. I swear, like, I still followed all the commandments, but, like, I was. Certain things were not that deep to me. You know, like those ways to stay super orthodox the way other people do or whatever, that wasn't important to me. And so I'd always tell my friends, yeah, I'm not the average person. And so, yeah, before we get to

Worthiness Culture and the Decision to Attend BYU

John Dehlin [01:39:30] BYU and your mission, one of the, the ways we've identified that the Mormon Church can really wrap people around the axle is through worthiness stuff. So whether it's word of wisdom stuff, drinking or smoking or drugs in high school, or law of chastity stuff, like any sexual experimentation or LGBT inklings, even modesty stuff, if you step outside the line there, the shame hammer can really come down on you in terms of, like, worthiness interviews, you know, interactions with your bishop, just you feeling guilt and shame and your relationship with Heavenly Father. Did you experience any guilt and shame sort of stuff growing up?

Rachel Weaver [01:40:11] Nope. Zero percent. Number one, I was very, very straight and narrow. I did nothing, I thought of nothing. I was very much like, this is what I'm gonna do and I'm gonna stick to it. That's my personality, though. Once I make a choice, I'm gonna go with it and I make the decision if I'm gonna change that. And to me, I wanted to be, you know, super lds. I wanted to be active, I wanted to be worthy of these things. So I didn't falter from it. And in terms of modesty, what's actually really interesting is my stake was pretty relaxed with those things, actually. I remember a girls camp. This is always again, topic of conversation for other people, like how to wear shorts to the knee and wearing a one piece and all that. And I mean, I guess that was a rule. But my stake was very relaxed. Like, we wore shorts, we all wore athletic shorts, shorts. Nobody wore. Like, I mean, there were girls who had like extremely LDS parents who maybe did that. But we all wore athletic shorts. All of us, like, short shorts too. Like up to here. Like, we were. It wasn't like we were never told, take that off or you can't wear that. And again, that's because so many adults in our stakes were so progressive that that was not like a restriction. That was had, like, we could also wear tank tops. Like, I wore. Like, I would wear something like this to church growing up, because.

John Dehlin [01:41:22] Meaning you'd show your shoulders. Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [01:41:24] Like bare shoulders. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:41:26] Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [01:41:26] And my mom was very relaxed as well. My mom wasn't raised lds, so her perspective was, like, time and place, you know? Yeah. No matter modesty or not. Don't wear, like, a dress you wear out to, like, the club to church. That just doesn't make sense for any setting. Right. And my mom's perspective was, like, once you get endowed and you wear garments, you're not gonna be able to wear none of that, so enjoy it while you can. So my mom was always like, yeah, wear whatever you want as long as. Again, it makes sense. And I never felt restricted again. My other siblings could have felt that way because I grew up really skinny. So I'm just, like, bringing in other parts of privilege that I had that my other siblings might not have had. My body wasn't as, like, air quote developed, which is like, a triggering word. But, like, I wasn't super curvy until, like, much later in high school. So those are privileges I could have been granted that, like, I was given more flexibility than, like, my other sisters maybe were have. I just want to bring that up because I don't know if my sister has felt that way. I haven't ever talked about this with them.

John Dehlin [01:42:20] What about just dating boys, then?

Rachel Weaver [01:42:21] I didn't date boys.

John Dehlin [01:42:22] Okay. You didn't date at all?

Rachel Weaver [01:42:23] I didn't date anybody.

John Dehlin [01:42:24] Really?

Rachel Weaver [01:42:25] No.

John Dehlin [01:42:25] Wow. So you graduated high school having never really dated? No.

Rachel Weaver [01:42:28] Never dated, Never kissed anyone?

John Dehlin [01:42:29] Nope. Were you sad, lonely, or did you just not care?

Nate Byrd [01:42:32] No.

Rachel Weaver [01:42:33] I mean, there were parts of me that would bring up dating and, like, the racial aspect. Because in my head, I was like, well, I have to date somebody ld lds. I have to marry someone lds. So pretty much anyone who wasn't LDS was never on my radar.

John Dehlin [01:42:44] Not a lot of. Not a lot of young men to date.

Rachel Weaver [01:42:47] And the young men in my ward are, like, my brothers. So it was very much like, no. And then the guys in the stake, I was not the top of the priority for lots of reasons. And, like, I remember one time we had, like, a panel for, like, college talking about BYU with my, like, a combined activity thing. And I remember I brought up, like, they were talking about dating, and I was like, I'm a black woman. Do you think my experience is gonna be like, the rest of y'? Alls? Do you guys think that, like, white men are gonna wanna date me again? I was wild in high school. Like, I said I would just say stuff and see what people would say. And they were all like, oh, well, I know some guys who dated girls from different races, blah, blah, blah. And I just went to Efy. Like, I had already been to Efy. I went to Efy when I was 15 and 16 and 17. So by the time I left school, I knew that I was not sought after in that way. Like, people were not like, oh, wow, she's like, people would think I was beautiful back at home. Like, I had dudes always trying to talk to me at work. I was like, okay, this is crazy. Like, I'm 16, this is too much. But like, that didn't really mean anything to me because those were not the kind of people I wanted to be with. I wanted to be with someone because I knew I wasn't gonna have sex. So I was like, yeah, I can't be with a regular dude because he is gonna want to have sex with me. That was very clear to me. I also grew up in a family that was very clear, very sexually aware. And so because of that, I'm like, I'm not going to put myself in a situation where I'll have to tell someone no or I'll have to explain it. I only wanted to be with someone who was lds, and so I never dated. But I also knew that I wasn't really like, I felt very. What's the word to use when you have like, a bleak outlook on things? I was very pessimistic. Yeah, very pessimistic when it came to my future in dating. Because that just. The reality is I'm a black woman in a white church. And I knew once I started getting close, like going knew I was going to byu, making that decision, I knew that that's what I was going to be in. And so I was like, well, that's probably not going to be the best experience, but we'll deal with it when it comes. But I knew I didn't have like a super positive outlook because I just knew the reality of like a black woman dating in a white space. The rate is very low.

John Dehlin [01:44:51] So I guess as you're applying to colleges, you could have considered University of Illinois at Champaign, Urbana, or University of Chicago, you know, downtown, or even historically black colleges like Howard or whatever. Right. And I imagine academically you could have maybe gotten accepted and. Or gotten scholarships to a lot of great schools. Maybe maybe you had the academics to get into Harvard or Stanford or, you

Rachel Weaver [01:45:20] know, I wasn't that applied Those are my friends. Not me. My friend. Half. My friend group did go to Ivy League colleges. Not me, though.

John Dehlin [01:45:26] So were you. Did you consider other schools and how did you think through how to. Where to apply and where not to apply?

Rachel Weaver [01:45:33] Yeah. So I know Sane on her interview, talked about soar Summer of Academic Refinement, which is put onto the BYU Multicultural Student Services office. My brother had attended that when he was junior to senior year. And I had also attended it. And I loved soar. SOAR was so fun for me. It was like. It was like EFY for brown people. Right. And I was like, this is way better. Like, this was so fun. And so that really solidified me wanting to go to byu.

John Dehlin [01:45:57] However, was it an EFY experience?

Rachel Weaver [01:46:00] No, it's more academic based. Like you prepare to take the ACT at the end of the week, but it's still something.

John Dehlin [01:46:05] But it's like a week long.

Rachel Weaver [01:46:06] Yep. It's on BYU campus. Oh, yeah. I don't know if you knew this.

John Dehlin [01:46:10] I think I totally have spaced it. So people of color who were Mormon would go to BYU campus for a week.

Rachel Weaver [01:46:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:46:18] And have an EFY like experience.

Rachel Weaver [01:46:20] Yeah. Like we're in classes preparing to take the act. So they like put you in different classes where you're praying for math, the reading, science, giving us tips on how to take the test, because that's the purpose. But I think we only are in class for four hours a day. Outside of that, we did like a service activity. We did like a cultural night. They also do a thing where they like talk about majors and scholarships like byu. Excuse me, academic advisors come and speak to the group. So it's like basically a recruiting opportunity for BYU through the Multicultural Student Services office. And if you attend soar, you have a higher likelihood of getting into byu. They don't say this, but I know now they send a letter of recommendation with your application and so you have like a 70% chance of getting in. But there are issues that I have with the MSS office and SOAR that I learned at BYU because there were only. I was the only fully black person in my session out of 100. And then there were other two half black people. Half black, half white people. So three black people total. There were no other black people. And majority were like Polynesian and Latino, which nothing wrong, but I was just like, dang, I expected to see more black people here for a multicultural event.

John Dehlin [01:47:27] Did you pay to attend that?

Rachel Weaver [01:47:29] Yes, it was 350 in 2016.

John Dehlin [01:47:31] So cheapish. And then you paid your own airfare

Rachel Weaver [01:47:35] and Everything they have. They have scholarships and stuff available. The MSS always has a lot of money, so I'm assuming they pay for people to come up.

John Dehlin [01:47:41] Some would say, wow, that's cool. Like, I didn't get ACT prep, you know, to go to college. So some would say, what a great opportunity.

Rachel Weaver [01:47:49] Yeah, it was a great opportunity. I loved it. Soar. Soar is a wonderful experience. I had so much fun. They have two dances and they play, like, better music than, like, efy, you know what I mean? That we are brad around people. So they're playing, like, a little more hip hop, and it just felt like efy, but better.

John Dehlin [01:48:04] So you did EFY and Soar?

Rachel Weaver [01:48:06] Yeah, in the same summer.

John Dehlin [01:48:07] That's cool. Okay.

Rachel Weaver [01:48:09] Yeah, so I was in it. I told you I was deep.

John Dehlin [01:48:12] Did you apply to other universities?

Rachel Weaver [01:48:13] Yes, I did. So also, growing up, I was always, again, like I said, very academically inclined. Whatever you want to say. I always performed really well in school. And so my family's dream was always for me to go to Spelman. Spelman College, which is the number, the number one HBCU in Atlanta, Georgia. It is historically women's college. Now majority all women go there. And then there's Morehouse College, which is right next to it. And they're basically in their brother and sister university. And I loved Spelman. And so my senior year, I was doing a ton of research. Like, I would watch, like, vlogs from my college students on YouTube who are attending those universities. And I love Spelman. I loved it because of the, you know, the black part of it. But also I love tradition. And I'm like a sucker for, like, sentimental stuff. That's just my personality. I love, like, little cute cheesy ass moments. I love that stuff. And Spelman has a ton of traditions. They have a. You know, one of their most beautiful traditions is when you graduate or. No, it's when you first become a Spelmanite. You, like, wear all white. You, like, wear a certain outfit. And they bring back people who have graduated from Spelman and they like. At the gates of Spelman, when you walk in, they have the oldest person who has graduated, who's still alive, and they're at the beginning of the gate, and then they just go up class of class after. And so it's a line of all black women who are basically, like, welcoming you now into the Spelman community. And this is like one of the ceremonies they have during the first week when you go and, you know, you walk all the way down to, like, the most Recent graduates. And I just think that's a beautiful experience. Right. Like. Like, Spelman has a ton of traditions like that that are just so always, like, stuck out to me. And it was something I wanted to experience. And so I was really drawn to Spelman. I applied to Spelman. I got into Spelman.

John Dehlin [01:49:56] Oh, wow.

Rachel Weaver [01:49:57] Yeah. But I didn't get any scholarship. I also got into Clark Atlanta University, which is another hbcu, which is right near there. It's also on. The campuses are right next to each other. And so really. And I applied to byu, got into byu, got a school, full scholarship from the MSS office. So really, in my head, MSS Students for Multicultural Students Services Office. The office that put Soar On.

John Dehlin [01:50:19] Okay. Yeah, they give you a full tuition scholarship to byu. That doesn't suck.

Rachel Weaver [01:50:24] No.

John Dehlin [01:50:25] Yeah, Full ride.

Rachel Weaver [01:50:26] So I felt like I was choosing between basically two identities, though. That's how I felt my senior year. I was like, go. And at this point, I also knew I still wanted Server mission. Right? So to me, it was like, go to Spelman, and my black identity will be so nourished and strengthened, and I'll be around black excellence, beautiful black people. Right? Like, everything that I love.

John Dehlin [01:50:45] Black boys to date.

Rachel Weaver [01:50:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:50:47] Black men, I should say yes.

Rachel Weaver [01:50:49] But then spiritually, I was like, I'm gonna be dead. I was like, I want to serve a mission. I was like, I made it out of high school without doing anything. I don't know if I'll make it to college. I don't have my family to go back to every night to encourage me. Or my best friend who's LDS right there with me. Right. I wouldn't have that. And so I was singing that. Or go to byu, where I'll be spiritually strengthened. And I'm gonna be with all these people who are like me and can encourage me and help me to go on my mission. But then I knew racially that I was going to be very much a super minority. Because at the same time, again, like I said, I'm this research girl. I'm always on the Internet looking at stuff. So I was watching videos at this time. And Nate knows this. Cause this is when Nate was at byu, when I was, like, researching videos. Do you remember the videos that Melody. Not Melody, I mean, johnisha, made, where she would go around asking people racial questions about BYU or, like, interviewing black students, talking about their experiences? I had done. I found any and everything I could about being black and at byu. I even read stuff about, like, Darren Smith, anything on the Internet about That I read it, I found it, and I knew it was a shitty situation, but I was still like, ah, spiritually, this is where I need to be. And that's like, the right choice. And I prayed about it, and I felt like God wanted me to go to byu. So I was like, I'm gonna go to BYU in my family. I remember my aunt and I got into, like, a huge argument when I graduated because she didn't know I had gotten into Spelman. So I ended up telling her, and then she's like, you chose BYU or Spelman. You're indoctrinated by that Mormon church. Black people, like HBCUs produce the most, like, educated black. They do. They produce the most black professionals. And she was, like, super upset that I was choosing this white university over, like, really? That's like, this is. There are black people who can't get into those schools. And so it was really an honor. And so it felt, like, disrespectful, which I understand. Like, I understood why my aunt was upset at me for not going to Spelman, but I felt like, spiritually, BYU was the right choice for me. And again, even though, again, I was watching those videos, like, every day on rerun. I was watching them over and over again because I was.

John Dehlin [01:52:53] The Spelman ones.

Rachel Weaver [01:52:54] No, the ones about byu. Oh, the BYU that Johnisha had made, that Nate knows her.

Nate Byrd [01:52:58] They're still on YouTube. They're called We Are BYU.

Rachel Weaver [01:53:01] No, not the We Are BYU ones.

Nate Byrd [01:53:02] No, not those ones.

Rachel Weaver [01:53:03] Oh, that was while I was on my mission. The interviews with she would go around with Daryl. Is that his name? They were asking questions to people. That's when they asked about blackface.

Nate Byrd [01:53:13] Those are the same ones. I think they're on the same channel, aren't they?

Rachel Weaver [01:53:15] Oh, yeah, they're on the same channel. But the We Are BYU ones I think were a little after. But, yeah, she basically was, like, asking white students questions. And these people were unaware as hell, like, they didn't know anything about race. And considering. Exactly. Again, remember my context. I'm out here saying wild things, going to protest this very liberal black woman. And I'm like, well, you know what? That's why other black people, when you ask them, they're like. They felt like it was like a bait and switch. Like, oh, when they went to Soar, they thought it was going to be all brown. I knew it wasn't. I've been efy. I knew what the majority BYU population was like. I've been watching these videos again. Read anything that black people had written about byu. I knew it was not a good situation. I knew I was, like 1% of the population. I was very aware, But I knew I would go with my brother. My brother also was starting his freshman year with me because he'd gone on his mission in 2015, back in 2017, so we were gonna start our freshman year at the same time.

John Dehlin [01:54:06] Oh, wow.

Rachel Weaver [01:54:07] So I knew we would be together, and I knew that I would. And I knew that it was just something I had to do. I was like, well, I made it work in my ward, and I had great friendships still with people. Even though there were hard moments and things that made me feel uncomfortable or excluded, I got over them. And I called people out, and I was like, well, I should do the same thing at byu. So that was my perspective. And then I was like, I'm going to byu. And I came to Provo.

John Dehlin [01:54:31] You felt like that's what God wanted you to do?

Rachel Weaver [01:54:33] Yes. Wanted me to come to byu.

John Dehlin [01:54:35] How do you argue with God?

Rachel Weaver [01:54:37] I mean, I was very. I wanted things to work again at the same time, every answer or question I asked, it wasn't in. I don't want this to be true. It was always, this needs to be true. This has to be true. And so it's like, I was like, maybe BYU can help me to. Because, again, everyone in my ward had gone to byu. They spoke of it very highly. And this is where I met my. You know, everyone who's probably listening, who's. Who was Mormon, knows what I'm talking about. Like, this is. They paint BYU as the Mecca, especially as a black student. Like, this will. In my ward, I felt like if I went to byu, if I got into byu, if I went there, my ward really felt like. Like, check, like, thumbs up. We have officially, like, really done it. You know what I mean? Like, she has made it. This is, like, the biggest deal, biggest success story, convert to now, full membership, going to byu. And then I went on a mission. So it felt very much like. I don't know, I felt like other people were also very proud of me. Like, people were very proud that I had gotten it. Not like, necessarily my family, but, like, church people again. The missionaries that we had talked to and known over the years, super happy. My young woman's leaders were happy. Happy and, like, ecstatic that I was going there. Granted, these were white women who knew nothing what it was like to be a black woman in Utah, I mean, or at a byu. And so I was not prepared in a lot of ways.

John Dehlin [01:55:57] Yeah. So when you go to byu? Do you have culture shock? Is it enjoyable? What was your. You want one year, your freshman year?

Rachel Weaver [01:56:08] Yes, before my mission.

John Dehlin [01:56:09] So. So what was that like?

Rachel Weaver [01:56:12] It was shocking in a lot of ways. Church, for example. I went from being one of maybe five families and then individual black people. So again, like I said, About 30% of my ward was black to going to being the only black person in my ward. So that was like, ooh. And my bishop was very much not culturally aware at all. I remember I wrote in my bio that I sent to him, like, oh, I'm this up progressive person. I wrote something about protest. And in our first, like, interview, because I needed, like, a new temple recommend for baptisms for the dead, he was like, oh, like, I don't know anything about all that liberal stuff you were talking about. You're gonna have to teach me. And it wasn't like, I actually want to know kind of way. It was in a putting me down and, like, minimizing that kind of way. So that always rubbed me the wrong way. And, yeah, so it was definitely a culture shock. But I didn't hang out with. With majority BYU population.

John Dehlin [01:57:05] Were you in the dorms?

Rachel Weaver [01:57:06] So I was in heritage halls. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:57:08] That means you made your own food, Is that right?

Rachel Weaver [01:57:10] Yes. So I had, like, an apartment style. I wasn't in Helaman, so the newer ones that they made. And this was in 2017. And my friends that I made a soar were my friends my freshman year, which were majority Polynesian people, which were.

John Dehlin [01:57:23] They were your roommates. So your roommates.

Rachel Weaver [01:57:25] So my roommate was, like, a white person. Okay, so my roommate was the race, actually, because I was in the one room that had, like, the RA's room and then, like, one other private room. So I was lucky. I was, like, the only. I was the only person on the floor who was, like, a non RA in my private room. So my friends always hung out at my place. But she was really cool. She was from New Jersey. Love her shout out to Ali. I don't know if she's listening. She's great. But, yeah, so she was really an awesome roommate because I felt like I could talk about all my issues that I had and saw BYU. And she was always like, yeah, those are issues coming from New Jersey. Right. Like, she was very aware and. And maybe not as intensive understanding of doctrinal things like I did about race things, but definitely was, like, very empathetic and understanding about the injustices that were. That I was feeling as a black member. And. Yeah, and Again, my friend group was majority Polynesian people that I met at Soar. So all the people that I met at Soar that I had become friends with, like, those. That was my friend group my freshman year.

John Dehlin [01:58:19] Does that include SANE or no?

Rachel Weaver [01:58:20] No. So sane my freshman year. I think she's on her mission.

John Dehlin [01:58:23] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [01:58:24] So I hadn't met her yet. But my friends, two of them were from Hawaii. One of them was from, like, Oakland, California area. And then the half her life grew up here. So that was, like, my main girl group. And then there were some other girls that I was friends with and guys who, again, people from Hawaii, other Polynesian people from parts of the United States. So I had a very, like, brown friend group. So even though, like, BYU was very white, my. My close friends were all people of color.

John Dehlin [01:58:49] Got it.

Rachel Weaver [01:58:50] And my brother was also in this friend group.

Culture Shock and Isolation as a Black Student at BYU

John Dehlin [01:58:52] And maybe you answered this, but what kept you from having black young women and black young men as your close friends at BYU your freshman year?

Rachel Weaver [01:59:04] The BYU black population at that time was a lot older than me. So a lot of them had already come home from their missions. So they're like 20, 21. And I was 18. And it wasn't necessarily on purpose. Like, they were just more. I feel like, more serious in life, which is fine. Kind of like how I am. Like, I'm just more together. If I met somebody at 18, I'd kind of be like, okay, we might not click in certain ways. Not on purpose. It's just we're dealing with different things, doing different things. And I think that was mostly. I was cool with everybody, though. Like, I also found bsu, like, my first week. Like, I knew black people immediately on

John Dehlin [01:59:34] campus, tell people what that is.

Rachel Weaver [01:59:35] Black Student Union. So I, like, went to it right away. I found where it was. I, like, looked it up on clubs online, signed up for it, and I was a BSU member from, like, my first day on campus because I knew, again, coming from Chicago, a very black place. Everything in my context coming to byu, I knew I needed that support system. And so I was very friendly with everyone in bsu. They just weren't necessarily my close friend group, which I think was needed because my freshman year was so fun. It was hard in a lot of ways. Feeling like one of the things that was the hardest was walking around and not seeing people that looked like me. That was really hard for me, mentally, growing up in a place that I always saw people that looked like me. Chicago has so many black people that even if you're in a white people Area. Like, you're not gonna. Like, my high school had about 25% white people, 23% Hispanic, and like 22% black people. So even if my friend group wasn't a ton of black people, there was. They were just always around. Like, I was never the only black student in the class until I attended byu. Never my entire, like, existence. Because again, I went to majority black elementary school, majority black middle school. So NYU is just like. Those things were shocking. I think that was kind of the hardest part was just, like, getting used to the demographics overall and adjusting to, like, not seeing black people in Walmart. That was really bothersome to me. I was like, if we can't see black people at Walmart, we are at a low point in life. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:01] So, you know, I didn't learn what privilege meant until I was getting my PhD in my 40s in psychology. And so, like, if I'm trying to channel back my pre diversity class self, I could imagine myself saying, what's the big deal? Okay, you're black. But at byu, it's like Zion. Everyone, everyone loves everyone and everyone, they don't see color. And, you know, you're just all. I'm not saying this is in any way true. I'm just setting you up to answer a question about why it would be hard to walk around BYU campus and not see people like you. Someone might say, well, it doesn't matter, because isn't the goal to be a colorblind society? And everybody believed in the gospel, and maybe it's best that people just not see color. So what would be hard about that for those who don't understand what privilege even means?

Rachel Weaver [02:01:56] It erased my entire experience before I came to BYU doing that again, I grew up in a very, very black experiences, right? Like, I don't know how to describe it. Like, my life was just so different and I knew that life here was not normal. Like, this is not the average for most people. And so trying to act like this was fine was always uncomfortable for me because I'm like, no, there are people who don't live like this. That's how I felt at byu. Like, you guys act like this is cool and normal, but this is not most places. I grew up in a much different place than this, and it doesn't have to be this way. And so that's when I kind of started my activism at BYU and realizing that there were problems here. And again, as I was going to BSU and being friends with some of the black students, I was learning of, like, the racial issues within the church and the ways that they felt about blacks in the priesthood and their experiences with racial things at BYU and the church. And it kind of helped me to feel comforted to know that there were other black people who also experienced what I was experiencing, who felt the way I felt. And so there was a lot of comfort in the BSU and the Black Student Union. And the other black students I met were really uplifting to me from the beginning of my BYU experience.

John Dehlin [02:03:12] Okay, so you would say you had a great freshman.

Rachel Weaver [02:03:17] I had a great freshman year socially, like, with friends. My friends were awesome. So really great connections. However, I think I walked away from BYU feeling like there were a lot of opportunities that I cut myself off from out of fear because I knew how hard BYU could be for black people, how hard it had been for me. Just like not feeling seen. Because even in the MSS office, although it was very Brown, it was not very black.

John Dehlin [02:03:45] What do you mean by that?

Rachel Weaver [02:03:46] So the MSS office, the Multicultural Student Services, there are a lot of Polynesian students on campus. There are more Latino students than black, but still, like a small percentage compared to Polynesian students. But there are not a lot of black people in the MSS office. The reason why I said I had issues with SOAR is there are most black people that come to BYU did not come from soar. Soar? Majority of.

John Dehlin [02:04:08] Not really.

Rachel Weaver [02:04:08] Did not. Yes. I'd say about 80% of black students don't know about SOAR. Didn't know about SOAR, but 80% of the Polynesian people I knew came to BYU from SOAR.

John Dehlin [02:04:18] Okay, so it was like, for some reason, Polynesians are overrepresented.

Rachel Weaver [02:04:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:04:23] And black people are underrepresented in soar.

Rachel Weaver [02:04:27] Yes.

Nate Byrd [02:04:28] When it comes to, like, the racial totem pole, the racial hierarchy, really, anywhere black people are going to be at the bottom of that. The only people that I would say who are probably more. Have been more mistreated in the US would be Native Americans. And they're probably even, you know, they're more underrepresented at BYU as well. But just generally, you know, in America or throughout the world, black people are going to be at the bottom of everybody's. Everybody's list. Right. And so, you know, other minorities, Latinos, Polynesians, Asians, they have a level of, you know, even though they may face some discrimination, some racism, some prejudice, there's always like this underlying. Well, at least they're not black. Right. And anti blackness is kind of the standard, just like whiteness is the standard at the same time. And so, you know, when it comes to dealing with people from those other races at byu, you kind of see that reflected white, where black women are gonna be the least sought out or sought after or desired when it comes to dating. And you'll see other races or other groups of people just kind of more accepted or more brought into the fold. And Latinx people and Polynesian people are definitely a huge part of that because they know according to Book of Mormon lore, they're part of the, the lost tribes of Israel. And so there's, there's kind of this, this different acceptance of them within the church.

John Dehlin [02:06:06] Got it. While, while Rachel's taking a much deserved break, there's a couple we want to thank our, our livestream audience both on YouTube and Facebook. We want to invite everyone who joins us through YouTube or Facebook to subscribe to the Mormon Stories podcast channel on either platforms to like this episode to share it because that's how we spread the word. We want to thank Carol Bernard for the super chat. Thank you, Carol. Those donations are what helps make all this possible. Not just to support the Open Stories foundation, but we try and pay our co hosts and people who support us and participate us. So thanks so much to Carol for that super chat donation. There are a few questions or comments that have come in on the live stream and maybe I'll just ask a couple of them while we're giving Rachel a quick break. Zach writes, I guess I just don't see how currently it's necessary for black people to code switch. I'm likely ignorant, but I don't see the differences between racial and religious code switching. Do you have a quick reaction to Zach? Yeah, this is going back to a conversation we had an hour and a half ago.

Nate Byrd [02:07:22] Always back. Yeah. So code switching, it is necessary because

John Dehlin [02:07:32] it's almost like he's saying our culture, our society is colorblind now.

Nate Byrd [02:07:36] Yeah, that's kind of the argument. I don't see why there's a need for code switching because everybody's accepted for who they are. Ideally, that would be the case, but it is not. And I would imagine, Zach, I don't know you, but I would imagine that you probably have a. Your circle of people that you work with or talk to is probably a little bit more narrow. And that may sound harsh to say, but if you don't see the reason for code switching, it's because you have interacted on a close level with people of color and you've never seen them code switch. You've never seen the way that they change. So with code switching, the reason that it is necessary is because the way that I talk with someone, I'm in a professional setting, is going to determine how they see me, how they perceive me. So if I go into a job interview and I am dressed maybe like I would dress at home or around friends. So let's say I'm wearing. Wearing a bonnet to protect my locks, right? I wear a bonnet. I wear, you know, like some shorts and a T shirt. And I walk into this interview for this job, and I'm using slang that I would use around, you know, around some of my other friends. If I'm doing that and I go into this job interview, regardless of, you know, who I am or whatever, they're going to see me in a different light. But if I go in and I'm wearing a suit or I'm wearing a button down, and I have my. My hair, you know, styled neatly or fashionably, and I use professional language kind of the way I'm speaking right now, it's a much more, I guess, clear, concise, typical way, I'm much more likely to get that job than if I went in acting in a way that's more comfortable or more natural to me, right? So the reason for code switching is because, unfortunately, the standard in the United States and around the world really is whiteness. And whiteness equals a certain way of talking, a certain way of being, and especially in the church. Like, the whole goal of the church is to become white and delightsome. Or I guess now it's pure and delightsome since they changed it. So, you know, if you. If you don't see the need for code switching, it's probably because you've never seen, I guess, a black person in their natural habitat, so to speak. You know, I'm being a little bit tongue in cheek there, but there is a need for code switching. And you've probably only ever seen black people either who don't know how to code switch or who are actively code switching.

John Dehlin [02:10:00] Thank you. Thanks, Nate. And if Carol hadn't done enough, Carol just sent a second super chat and she writes, thank you for all the vital energy this much must take. So that's to Rachel and to Nate. So thank you for the support, Carol.

Nate Byrd [02:10:16] Thank you, Carol.

Rachel Weaver [02:10:16] Thank you.

Affirmative Action, Fetishization, and Campus Life

John Dehlin [02:10:18] Really quickly, Rachel and Nate, this is a historic week in the United States and some would say a dark week, because the Supreme Court just rolled back affirmative action in terms of college admissions. We're talking about your acceptance into byu. One of the things that I think I Knew on some level, but I had forgotten, was that Clarence Thomas, who's one of the black Supreme Court justices, is. If you. There's a. There's a New York Times daily episode that talks about his upbringing and how he obviously grew up in a rough, you know, rough state, a Southern state, experienced a lot of discrimination, found a way to make it to college and then to law school. And according to the stories I've been told and read, when he started really doing well in his career, he would just always be dismissed as some sort of affirmative action product. And the way the story's told, he learned to hate affirmative action because it would diminish. He perceived that it diminished the merits of his success. We talked about you applying to historically black colleges or universities, and we talked about you getting to BYU and getting a full scholarship fellowship. Let's just take a moment for you to share maybe what your reflections would have been about affirmative action at the time. And if those have changed. And Nate, we'll give you a chance to weigh in as well, just so we don't miss the chance to talk about that. And college entrance is a natural place in your story to talk about it.

Rachel Weaver [02:11:51] Maybe. Yeah. No, I think for me, affirmative action, this was a really disappointing situation just because affirmative action mostly benefits legacy children and women. Those are the people who benefit from affirmative action. Mostly.

John Dehlin [02:12:09] Wait a minute. So legacy children are white children of wealthy former graduates.

Rachel Weaver [02:12:16] They go to that school. And so because they're like, again, it's like, oh, you need to have this many amount of legacy. Like, these are certain, like, groups. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [02:12:25] Allotments, like allocations of spots reserved for children, grandchildren of alumni.

Rachel Weaver [02:12:30] So that's benefiting like, they don't need help, but they do have, like, it benefits them and women as well.

John Dehlin [02:12:37] Like the elimination of affirmative action benefits them?

Rachel Weaver [02:12:40] No, no. Like, that's what affirmative action, when it was in. Like that being in place, that those are the people that has benefited and a lot of athletes as well. Like, it doesn't have never really. Like, it does benefit black. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

John Dehlin [02:12:51] So, okay, let me make sure I understand. So you're saying. Saying if you are a black child or grandchild of a Harvard alum, then affirmative action fits you only into a legacy slot. No, no, no.

Rachel Weaver [02:13:06] So what I'm saying is affirmative action, before it was changed, the majority of people who benefited. So if we're looking at people, groups of people who it benefited was women, number one. Those are the majority of people who benefit, benefited from that being there, as well as people who are considered legacy, such as my friend who both of her parents went to Harvard. She's legacy when she applied to Harvard. That is going to help her.

John Dehlin [02:13:29] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [02:13:30] And so because of affirmative action, these are groups of people who had specific quotas, things that needed to be met as well as athletes also benefited in certain ways. Black people did. But if we're looking at total group amount of people who benefited, it was not. Those are the groups of buckets of people that benefited more in terms of, like, it helped them. Because these are still already a privileged group of people to begin with. Does that make sense? Like, they already have privilege. So having them have helped through affirmative action, it just helped them even more rather than it did help black people. But not as much as these groups of people. So I bring that up to say affirmative action, like, has helped black people, but in reality, like, if we look at the numbers, those are the groups of people that have benefited from the beginning, like, more white people than it did actually black and brown people.

John Dehlin [02:14:16] So are legacy admissions considered under the umbrella of affirmative action?

Rachel Weaver [02:14:24] Okay, what I know. Okay, yeah, this is what I studied in sociology. Sorry, this is just what I'm talking about.

John Dehlin [02:14:28] No, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Rachel Weaver [02:14:29] And so just because there are, if you look at there are different quotas for different categories, like, it's not just black, or like, you need to have this many black students. Like, there are different groups of people that have to be included in terms of, like, we need to meet this amount of people, or we have to make sure, like, we can't this not include legacy students. Does that make sense what I'm saying? Because they could be hindered. And so there are certain groups that the affirmative action made sure that those things were included, parts of their identity. Does that make sense what I'm talking about? Like, that's what affirmative action did, which it only further benefited rich, wealthy people if they are legacy. Does that make sense? Because before school didn't have to take that into account. They didn't have to care about the fact that they were legacy. But now, because of affirmative action, they did. Does that make sense? Affirmative action made that be something that was important, and now schools do. Really? They cared about that. Right. Like, you had a higher chance of getting in if both of your parents went to especially, like, Ivy League colleges, very elite schools. It definitely benefited you. Even if you weren't, like, necessarily donating a building or whatnot, like, it still benefited you having a parent who attended that school, even if it was just one. So I say all that to say affirmative action did benefit black people, but at the end of the day, it was helping white people. So I laugh. I just laugh because it's funny to me, because things that shouldn't be racialized are. And now it's like, well, now you're just hurting yourself too. So that's how I feel. Like, obviously, it definitely benefited people of color and helped people from different socioeconomic statuses be able to get into schools. But there's a lot of nuances that I feel about affirmative action that I don't think we have space for on this podcast. But it definitely. It's a sad day because it just, to me is showing how backwards we are going as a country, more so than anything. And if this means that less black students have access to higher education, that's a miss. I think especially like black students who grow up in. In lower SES areas, education is the way out of certain circumstances. And so it's just frustrating because if you really understand, and I say this because I want to study higher education and go into DEI and higher education. That's why I'm so passionate about it is majority of people who even get into college are already a privileged group, Even black and brown students. I was more privileged than the people who were born in the same zip code as me when I applied to BYU because of my life experiences and going to byu. So still, it's still helping a privileged group. Not that I wasn't benefited from maybe having whatever affirmative action benefits and whatnot. Right. But I'm still a more privileged group. Like, that could have gone to someone else if we're picking. Right. Like I was less needy than maybe someone who had no one in their life who was teaching them about college. I had all my ward members who were coaching me and helping me and assisting me. But that's why I say there's so many nuances. That's what I say. Just affirmative action has always benefited privileged people. Anyway. I don't need to go much further.

John Dehlin [02:17:34] No, that's fine.

Rachel Weaver [02:17:35] This is a conversation not maybe meant for the general population. And I think I just have very strong views on people racializing a situation that to me, had always already benefited a privileged group. Because even black students who go to Ivy Leagues, I know black kids that went to Ivy leagues. They don't need help anyway. That's what I say. I have very mixed feelings about it because. Because I went to school with black kids whose parents were hedge fund managers. And their kids go to Yale, their kids go to Harvard. But I also did go to school with kids who were first generation. They crossed the literal border and they went to Cornell. Right. I went to school with a very mixed group of people. And so I have very mixed feelings about affirmative action. I think I'm more upset about what this represents for the United States and what this represents in terms of how we view individual inclusion and working towards equity as a whole.

John Dehlin [02:18:26] Got it. Did you ever have BYU students, white BYU students, maybe imply or assume that somehow affirmative action contributed to your admission to byu?

Rachel Weaver [02:18:39] No, I didn't. And I say this to say this is what I was kind of talking about earlier, because I was so aware of what I was walking into. Unlike maybe other students, I prevented myself from making connections with what I would say is the general BYU population. I wasn't trying to make friends with my white really fhe group at all. Oh, no.

John Dehlin [02:19:00] Were you nice? Were you kind of.

Rachel Weaver [02:19:01] They were nice. I was cool. Like, I'm an extroverted person. I like to chit chat and whatnot, but I was not going to put myself in situations to have extended conversations with people who could say something offensive. So that's what I did. And because when I did, it was bad. Such as?

John Dehlin [02:19:16] So you didn't attend your family meeting

Rachel Weaver [02:19:17] group every now and then? Not really.

John Dehlin [02:19:19] What about your ward on Sunday?

Rachel Weaver [02:19:20] I did. I had to because I was going on a mission my freshman year.

John Dehlin [02:19:23] Right.

Rachel Weaver [02:19:23] And so I did. And my bishop would say off the wall stuff. Like one time when I came back from winter break, I remember him telling me, from the south side. So I guess he felt comfortable to say this. And I don't know if he was joking or what he said, oh, I hope you avoided all the gang members when you went home. We were in an interview about something for my mission. What are you talking about? Also, do I strike you as someone who knows gang members? And even if I do, what? Like, it's just this assumption that me as a black person who's from Chicago, who you think again, he had also made comments about a dangerous city. Like, he was like, oh yeah, Chicago's a real dangerous place. Like, I've been in the city, but never the south side where you're from. Why would you say that? Like, so interactions like, with white people who I didn't trust, that's pretty much the way I made it. And so I had a barrier around myself mentally and physically. Like, I basically white people had to prove that I could trust them for me to Want to continue to engage with you. For me, and so for me, those places were really only in sociology classes where they're more like understanding liberal ideals and people who understand racial issues that I really like, chose to connect with. But other than that, I didn't go out of my way to make connections with people. People went out of their way to make connections with me in my white ward. Cause that was my only time in a white ward. I really wasn't in one. Cause when I came back from my mission, I started going to the Polynesian ward, the Tongan ward. That kind of was a multicultural ward that Than I talked about in her interview. That's where I went when I came back. But yeah, so I was very limited. And again, like I said, my friends were mostly brown people. My freshman year, I didn't really go out of my way to connect with white people because I just had heard really bad things from black students in bsu. From the things that I was reading about black people's experiences at byu, I wanted to fortify something for myself and make it. And even still then, I still had negative interactions. I still had moments where I remember I would cry freshman year because I was like, there's just literally no one who looks like me and understands me. Even though I was with brown people, they still weren't black. Like, they didn't understand the experience of being a black woman, right? Of feeling unattractive, of not having anybody be interested in you or even blink your way. Because if they are, they're going to the most white person they can find. That's how I felt. Cause if we're in a group, I was with all other brown people, but I was the black person. I was the black woman. And so it's like, well, I'm gonna go date the one who looks a little more white. Or I'm going to be interested in the person who doesn't look. You know. And it's. It's a common experience for black women, not just in. BYU, but it's a common experience in white spaces, is that we are just. Black women are not viewed as attractive by, like, white men, which is majority of the population at byu that I was interacting with. And the ones that were interested in me were people who served their mission in Africa and were super creepy. And I'm like, I'm not even African. I'm African American. What are you doing? Like, I don't even. Like, I don't look like I come from there. I look quite like aa, as I say, like, I Look very African American. So I was. That always, like, threw me for a loop as well. And so it was just again, I had those moments while also, again, having a great social life, but still feeling isolated as a black person, even amongst my people of color friend groups.

John Dehlin [02:22:45] So did you date. Date your freshman year?

Rachel Weaver [02:22:48] I went on a date.

John Dehlin [02:22:49] One date? Yeah, one day. Your whole freshman year. And it was fine. I mean, Polynesian guy.

Rachel Weaver [02:22:57] He was a white man.

John Dehlin [02:22:58] White guy.

Nate Byrd [02:22:59] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:23:01] It's okay.

Rachel Weaver [02:23:01] It was fine. I mean, I don't wanna. Yeah. I don't want to make any assumptions about this person, but I don't even know if this is a. I'm not gonna delve into this, but I heard people who. I talked about this with other black women. So I don't know if I should say it on here, but I don't want it to be misinterpreted. That's why I don't know if I'm gonna say it. But whatever.

John Dehlin [02:23:23] You're comfortable.

Rachel Weaver [02:23:24] I don't know if I'm gonna say it. Cause I don't want it to be misinterpreted. But there have been cases where men who are unsure of their sexuality will try to date black women. And I've heard that from other black women. And it feels like we're the last option for you. And I've. Other black women have talked about this with me, and that's the vibe I got on my date.

John Dehlin [02:23:48] I'm sorry.

Rachel Weaver [02:23:48] And I'm not saying I'm not making any assumptions about this person or what they were or weren't doing, but that's the feeling I got. And I didn't want to feel that way. And I had never. I had heard of it, but I had never really. Again, I had never really been on a date. I never really had male interaction that way. But I definitely recognized it when I experienced it.

John Dehlin [02:24:05] Yeah. I'm sorry.

Rachel Weaver [02:24:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:08] So really quickly and again, this is maybe asking you both to educate us a little bit. Because this came up in your interview. Nate. Maybe a little bit with San as well. But let's just say a white Mormon missionary goes to Africa, learns to, quote, love the African people. Right. And comes back and says, hey, I'm. I'm progressive. I like. I don't see color. And I. I not only love black people, but I find them attractive. They might be interested in you. Just like maybe a white male Mormon missionary or maybe female who serves in Latin America.

Rachel Weaver [02:24:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:24:50] Might come back and say, I'm attracted to Latinas or Latinos.

Rachel Weaver [02:24:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:54] Help if you're comfortable sharing. What's problematic about that?

Rachel Weaver [02:24:58] Yeah, what's problematic about it is. Okay, it's hard to say this word. We are fetishized. That is what's happening in that moment. We. Parts of us, like, the parts of us that are attractive to you are parts that are, like, exotic and seem so different and out there. And they're not parts of, like, me as an individual. Like, it's not that. While this is a real. Like, I like kind people. I like really extroverted. Like, I'm very talkative. Like, these are things that you can be attracted to, but for you to

John Dehlin [02:25:23] be attracted to character or sense of humor, our personality.

Rachel Weaver [02:25:26] I like people with brown hair. Like, okay, let's give you a little space here. Right? Like, people with brown eyes. You have found a specific racial group that is a racial. Like. Like, you are fetishizing parts of their racial identity as what you are attracted to. That is a problem. Nate, I don't know if you want to speak more on that.

Nate Byrd [02:25:47] Yeah, there's a lot to it. Yeah, there's a lot of reasons why it's problematic. I think. I think part of the issue is that they're sending very young, very hormonal people into a new culture, a new place. It's a lot of times their first experience outside of Mormonism. You know, most missionaries come out of Utah, where all they're used to seeing is, you know, blond haired, blue eyed, thin Mormon women. And then you send them to somewhere where that is not the case, and then you, you know, obviously there's already the law of chastity, but then you deprive them of, like, any kind of sexual expression or anything like that without intense guilt or shame. It's gonna do some weird things psychologically. And I would have, you know, I served in Houston, Texas. Right. Which is, you know, very, very diverse, one of the most diverse cities in the United States. And there were lots of, like, beautiful, attractive men and women there. Right. But I would have, you know, companions who would just like, stare at. At, you know, a black woman on the street. And they would look at me and be like, oh, elder, I think I've got jungle fever. And, you know, I had that happen a couple different times, which, you know, first off, that's a horrible thing to say.

Rachel Weaver [02:26:55] Someone said that to me one time in youth group. They were like, I have jungle fever. I also wrote a Facebook thing about that. Y', all, if y' all are friends with me on Facebook from back in high school, I used to Go on. Rants on there about race stuff. I was different, but sorry, go ahead.

John Dehlin [02:27:06] Jungle fever is when a white person is attracted.

Rachel Weaver [02:27:08] I'm attracted to a black person.

Nate Byrd [02:27:09] Yeah. And. And it's a very extremely racist term, you know, implying that like black people come from the jungle. Like, you know, implying the whole like black people are monkeys and all of that. So, you know, it's a horrible thing to say and to think or to, you know, to say, especially to another black person.

Rachel Weaver [02:27:24] Yeah. And also I just want to throw in coupled with like these spiritual experiences that are like life changing that you're having on your mission while you're like deprived sexually and like meeting and so like you're having these spiritual experiences with people that you've never again. It's all just creating the perfect storm,

Nate Byrd [02:27:40] which there's a lot of weird psychology that goes into it. And so these people will come back with this love and attraction to a particular type of people because that's what they've been around. And it was a lot of times their first experience being in a new environment. But the difference is that you can tell the difference when somebody has a genuine appreciation for culture or just a love, respect for people as opposed to when they have a fetish for it. And it just comes off differently. Like there are plenty of people and a lot of times you can tell in the way that they interact. You know, if I have a white person come up to me and they ask me a question and you know, they're just very natural, very conversational, if they just treat me like a person and we're able to have a good conversation, talk about different things. They're not afraid to ask certain questions, not afraid to look silly if they ask something a little bit weird. If we can have a genuine interaction with some, with a person, then I'm like, okay, this is a cool white person. This is someone that I can talk to, that I can interact with and that maybe I can trust to let into future circles. And then you've got other people who treat you like a shiny new toy or who treat you like a dangerous animal in a cage, or they're like afraid to get too close or you might snap at them or something like that. You can feel those differences in interaction. And a lot of times when people have a fetish for something, they don't know what to do, except that, oh, I feel attracted to this particular thing or this particular person or this particular aspect of culture, but they don't know what to do with that. And so I think that's the difference. That's where the difference comes in. And so a lot of times these white men will come home from their missions and they'll want to interact with a black woman, but they have no idea how to do that. And rather than trying to figure out a way to do that or trying to like, relate with them as a person, the only thing that they have is, oh, well, I was a missionary in. In this place with a lot of black people. Therefore, you must understand where, you know, you. You should give me a date or you should give me your attention or things like that.

Rachel Weaver [02:29:34] That happened to me.

Nate Byrd [02:29:35] Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [02:29:36] My freshman year. Did I tell you about that? My freshman year, I used to work in this thing called the Twilight Zone now, like where you get like snacks at the BYU.

John Dehlin [02:29:44] It's like a little 7 11.

Rachel Weaver [02:29:45] Yeah. Yes. At the BYU store. And so I was just in there and this guy, like, comes up to me. He's like, I served my mission in Mozambique. That's all he said. I kid you not, that's his opening line. And I said, just pick a blood. I was like, awesome, Love that for you. Everyone served a mission. You're not unique. No, not. I didn't say this, but in my head I'm thinking like, okay. And so my reaction was like, okay. And he just kind of stood there. You know when someone stands and they're like waiting for your response months. They kind of stood there like. And I was just like, okay. And. And like everyone, like all my co workers were just like watching from afar, like, this is very cringe. Like he really was trying to like, make a connection with you. So then he just like started asking me like, oh, where are you from? Blah, blah. Like, but it was just from the beginning, him just starting with that let me know like, what you thought this interaction was going to be. And like, again, he tried to like, get my number. And I was like, no, I'm okay. Like, I'm not gonna give my number to this man who is letting me know who served his mission in Mozambique. And so my friends after that I worked with were like, that was so weird. They were like, that was so bad. I'm like, I know, but just like that idea that, like, that is supposed to be a connecting factor, which again, always cracks me up because I am very black American. Like, black American culture is very different than West African, East African countries. And so the fact that people even try to make those be parallel is funny to me because we are quite different. And so that was just like, again, an interaction and again, I had another time I was wearing a dashiki, and this white man came up to me and was like, I love your dashiki. Where'd you get it? Like, where's the cloth from? And I was like, this is from Amazon. I was like, it's from Amazon. And the disappointment in his face, like, I had just stolen his little teddy bear was so present. He, like, looked so sad, and then just, like, walked away. He thought I was gonna tell him, like, yes, I got this from back home. Like, where were you? Served your mission or something? And it was just really funny to me. But, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:48] So what I'm hearing. Tell me if I get this right, that there's sort of a dehumanization.

Rachel Weaver [02:31:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:31:54] That the depersonalization that comes with kind of telling someone you like them because they're, number one, part of this big group. Number two, they didn't choose to be part of this group. But number three, they're probably not even part of the big group that they're targeting, but they just kind of match a color of skin with this other group. And in all those ways, it's dehumanizing. It's depersonalizing. And in a way, they feel like it's flattering and progressive, but for you, it's dehumanizing and insulting.

Rachel Weaver [02:32:25] And this is not just true with black people. I know Sane spoke to this a little as well. It's all other cultures as well. Well, it's some. I don't know why missionaries do this and why they come back like this, because again, my friends, my freshmen are all Polynesian, so they would meet missionaries who served in Polynesia, different countries. Like, I had a friend one time, she was Samoan, and her. She met this guy who served in Samoa. He starts speaking Samoan to her, and she doesn't know Samoan. Like, she was raised in. She was raised in California. She didn't know it. And he was like, oh, well, I'm, like, more Samoan than you. Then stop. Like, that is not okay to say. And I guess he was trying to be, like, flirty, jokey, but she was not having it. And it's just things like that. That. And a lot of my friends who are Hispanic or Latino, they experience this. They just feel like men just want to practice their Spanish with them and go out of their way to be like, oh, I want to date a spicy woman. And just a lot of racial innuendos within dating that are just inappropriate and really, like you said, dehumanize you. And also, like, they feel like they have claim on your culture and who you are because they served there for two years. And it's like, this is my entire identity. This wasn't like a cool trip I took for two years that I knew was ending. That's a key part. Whenever people go on missions, like no matter how hard it is, you know that shit is going to end. You know it's going to be done at some point. So you like you. There's like a mental different. Like you are voluntarily including yourself in it rather than like, like, I don't get to choose if I'm black. People don't get to choose if they're, you know, Samoan or Tongan or if they are going to perceived be perceived as like English as their second language. You know what I mean? Like we don't get choices in that. But you did. And so you opting in and opting out is like disrespectful as well.

John Dehlin [02:34:08] Plus, once you, once you start to associate Mormon missions with kind of colonization and or kind of white saviorism, it's not necessarily a credit, you know that you did that right.

Rachel Weaver [02:34:20] So yeah, it always rubbed me the wrong way. And that was a part of less when I got back from my mission because of different reasons. But yeah, definitely more so my freshman year especially. Cause dating was such like an overemphasis my freshman year. I feel like when you first get to byu, everyone's like, oh my gosh, BYU dates. Like, you know, it's such a part, it's a big part of the culture. And for me it just wasn't happening. It was just non existent, nowhere to be found, which was. It's a common experience amongst women of color at byu. We are just not as desired or sought after. And especially with what people tell you about what BYU is like. All my leaders are like, I went on dates all the time and blah, blah. And I'm like, yes, you a white woman, you were going on dates every week. Me a black woman who is not a size 2. I'm having a very different experience than you and I'm unapologetically black. At that point in my life, my identity had developed so much that I'm going to say what's on my mind. I'm also not like, I was like, well, I remember after my mission, this is what we'll get into. More like, at least this is gonna sound bad. At least like if I was conservative or like super subscribed to like everything the church taught, I could fly by a little better. Because there are Black people who do do that in the church, and they do a lot better than I do, but I am. That was not me. I'm not like, I'm not folding onto what I feel are my values that. That didn't align with church. Things that I made noise about as well. Which also isn't something that is sought after after LDS men, when they're finding people that they want to be with, you know, it's viewed like it's. People want women who are meek, who are humble, and I'm not that way. I'm gonna cause noise. I mean, like, I helped start Black menaces. This is like part of who I've always been. And that was something that I definitely brought with me my freshman year. And people knew that, that. And I'm a woman who's going to. I'm going to speak my mind and I'm going say what I say what I think in that moment. And that's not something that I think is valued for women in the church.

John Dehlin [02:36:16] Yeah. When I graduated from high school, BYU was the only university I really considered. And the number one reason was to date Mormons. And I dated a storm my freshman year at BYU and every year after. And. And that was a huge defining part of the BYU experience. Like you said, your leaders who shared with you their BYU experiences. So when I hear you say, number one, that you didn't date other than once, and I won't repeat what you said, I mean, you know, to a guy who might have been dating you for the wrong reasons, but the fact that culturally you were just kind of isolating yourself from white people, which is 90% of the culture, there's population for fear of having someone say something horrific or mean or hurtful to you. I'm feeling sad that that was your freshman experience, because so many people have a great freshman experience. But even though you love the church, wanted to be there, chose to be there, and we're grateful for your Mormon experience. It's mind blowing to me and makes total sense now that you say it, that you had such. I don't know if you would call it sad, but I'm calling it sad relative to my experience.

Rachel Weaver [02:37:33] No, it was sad. And so that's why I say I enjoyed my freshman year in so many other ways. But in other ways. That's why I say my experience in the church has always been, like, so polarizing and so back and forth. Like what I talked about growing up with a diverse, but not diverse, and now having, like, amazing social experiences. And I had so Much fun with my friends. My friendships were amazing. The best friendships I'd ever made up to that point in my life. But in these other ways, I was not experiencing those things, and I was excluding myself or being excluded from having certain experiences. So again, it was like this toss up of, like, great, but also, like, not great. And then this is also when I decided to declare sociology as my major second semester of my freshman year. Well, first semester of my freshman year, someone told me about Dr. Jacob Rue, which. Any of you know him? He is one of the race professors at byu. And we, like, I met him, went to his office, and we talked for two hours. Because he also grew up on the south side of Chicago, where I went to middle school. He went there for high school. Anyway. Great connection, Love him. I took his Sociology of Race and Ethnicity class the second semester of my freshman year, and that changed my entire life. Like, I declared sociology as my major that same, like, semester. I knew that's what I wanted to study. That class gave me the tools to talk about my experiences as a black person in the church. It gave me the language to describe the experiences that I had. It helped me to understand not just my racial identity, but understand how other ethnic groups and racial groups worked with our experience. How did anti blackness look in my culture and other ones? It just transformed me as a person who already cared about social justice, but now I have this academic language and understanding and knowing there's research behind my feelings, there's research behind my experiences, and that they're real. And so it was very empowering. And I felt very, like, empowered after that class. And I went on to be a TA for two years after my mission for that class. And great experience in sociology really changed my life and saved my life at byu because now I was also in classes with people who were understanding the same things that I was. I didn't have to explain when I said something about what happens on BYU campus or the way I feel people understand what that means because they're studying that every day. They're writing papers about it, they're reading things. And it was so sociology again, that became my full major. And then obviously, I got more engulfed in that at BYU when I came back from my mission. But that class, my freshman year, was really, really important, and I was super excited to get back to be a TA for Dr. Rue.

Sociology, Safety, and Finding Your Voice at BYU

John Dehlin [02:40:07] Yeah, professors can change your life. You know, teachers can change your life and professors. There was a sociology professor that was transformative for me at BYU as well. I'm just going to Just reflect on one thing. Like, in my idealistic self, like, in high school, I grew up in Katy, Texas, which is a suburb of Houston.

Rachel Weaver [02:40:27] Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:28] And absolutely, the Hispanic kids hung out together at lunch, and the black kids hung out together at lunch. And then the white kids hung out together at lunch. And then the kids who were like, farmer, kind of. We called them kickers, but they kind of hung out together at lunch. And I always just looked around and I said, why is the lunchroom so segregated? And there's a saying that the most segregated place in America is the church, because there's black churches and there's white churches. And my idealistic self is like, every friend group in the United States, but definitely at BYU is going to be proportionally representative of the racial composition of the student body. That, like, if I've got nine friends, one or two are going to be black, and that all friends groups should reflect the broader social makeup. And, like, I'm frustrated that that's not how things shake out. But it's extra frustrating that not only are white people not choosing to be more inclusive, but it's also sad that black people or people of color are also choosing to hang out with people that look more like them. It's coming from almost both directions. And the only reason I'm highlighting that is not to call anyone out. It's just just the same. Like, man, when are we ever going to break through this if both sides are choosing to kind of be with people that are like them? I know this isn't your story, but it's just coming to me now. And so I'm just. I'm feeling sad about that. Right.

Rachel Weaver [02:42:02] Yeah. I mean, the truth is, though, as a person of color, black person in particular, white people have been the proponents of a lot of pain and trauma.

John Dehlin [02:42:12] Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [02:42:12] For black people, you don't feel safe, Right?

Nate Byrd [02:42:14] Right.

Rachel Weaver [02:42:15] Don't feel safe. I don't feel safe being my full self around. Genuinely. Me and Nate have talked about this before. Until a white person proves themselves to be trustworthy, I'm not going to show that side of myself because there is a possibility of harm when I do that. And until I don't think that will change, until we get to a place where white supremacy is not so pervasive in our society and exudes in every aspect, especially in a place like the truth that is so white, that was built on whiteness being the most white out of all the white groups. And so because of that, it is an extremely dangerous place to be your full self. And that Is why I do have my guard up, have had my guard up. And I mean like since coming to Utah, I am more judgmental. Like I had white friends growing up. I did. I have white people that I'm super close to. Even in my home war. It's like, it's just the white people here, you know, that they, they don't have exposure to people that are different than them as well. So just a bad cause. White people, no matter how many people they're around, they're still like white supremacy is what you're raised in and whiteness is the standard. Those are still things that you are kind of raised around and forced to kind of grow up with unless you work against it or have parents who are anti racist or have environments that force you to not consider yourself as the norm, which come from more diverse places. And even then you can still be susceptible to biases and stereotypes. But definitely in a place with people in the church because BYU remind like BYU just was. It was a crazy experience because these were white people who never grew up around black people. That made no sense to me. I don't understand how you are 19 years old and you've never had a black friend. That's weird to me. But these are people who grow up in rich, wealthy, white suburbia. A lot of, I'd say about 50% of BYU comes from like Idaho, Arizona, Utah, California, which there are some very white spaces in all of those places. And a lot of people just did not grow up around people that were different than them. And that was something I noticed my freshman year that I really did not like and was something that was very hard for me. I wasn't, I was really focused on this mission train. So I didn't really sit in that as long as I have post mission. And that makes sense in my feelings about it. But my freshman year, that is something I definitely noticed and definitely was like, this is an issue. And also exposing to me like this is a majority church. My home ward was different. The white people I grew up with were different. They wanted to be progressive. They wanted to actively make themselves aware of racial issues. They wanted to be a part of the change. The people here do not, do not care, don't want to be. We've got bishops saying crazy stuff. My bishop at home would have never said that in his entire life because he's had experiences with black people that he's worked towards it. These people here, they don't have to. And that is the privilege of being white, is that you don't have to worry about things that are not yourself. And that was one of the biggest things that I left my freshman year feeling is that white people experience the church different than me. Like, I knew that, but, like, seeing, like, so many white people in the church just have very different thoughts and feelings. And me saying stuff about black people in the church or blackness, they just genuinely had no idea what I was talking about. I'm like, yeah, you get to walk through the church in a very different way than me. I don't get to do that. Like, me talking about all these experiences, being a black woman, dating. You don't have to do that as a white woman. Me experiencing feeling like, culturally, I have to hide parts of myself to be accepted by the mainstream church. You don't have to do that. And I remember also feeling like. Like, I've learned the game. That's also how I felt when I left my freshman year. Like, I've learned the game. I know how to present myself to white people to make them feel good. I know how to be a black person that is digestible. They like a token black person. And I know how to do that. And that's very much how I felt leaving my freshman year, which, again, are good observations. Not things, again, I didn't marinate too long all these things, but these are observations I had. And it did make me question what would that mean for me in the future in the church again. That's why I say it's so crazy, because I'm again gung ho on my mission. I get my call. All tears, so spiritual. Like in the mtc, Loving it. But I also was like, I was always curious about what that would look long term for me. That's how deep I felt. All these issues. After my freshman year, I'd be like, I don't know if this is actually going to last long term. I'm gonna be hopeful and hope that it will. But I wasn't really sure. And as we get talking about my mission, I remember I said to my trainer, I used to be like, yeah, being black and being LDS don't mix. I said that all the time to her. I was like, yeah. I was like, I might have to take breaks from the church again. Like I said, I used to say crazy stuff to people. And I would be like, what are you gonna say back? And I'd say, yeah, I'm probably gonna have to take a break at a certain point. I told her that. And my trainer was like, no, Sister Weaver, you won't have to. And I'm like, girl, yes, I will. I was like, this is a very white church and it's not really welcoming to black people. And my mission solidified that even more because again, I'm experiencing it. Not Utah. This is a different place. I was in Alabama, but still, like, this is the church. And seeing how like, Utah ideals or like things that come from like Utah culture and like Utah Mormonism still are present in other places outside of Utah. And like, that's when I was like, okay, this is a, this is a big issue. This is a church issue issue. This isn't just like, oh, Utah Mormons or Utah issues. This is an issue with the whole thing. And that's what I feel like my whole mission, like, it started kind of like bringing all of those things together, if that makes sense. Like my observations from growing up, my feelings and then like byu, which was like this experience on crack of the church. I feel like, of whiteness and what it felt like. And then it was like. Because then I could be like, you could put that on a shelf and be like, no, that's just Utah. That's just Utah white people. But then being like, oh, no, it's the church, it's the people. This institution breeds people like this, this institution supports people like this, which I can get into. And how that slowly developed over time and how I told my companion, I. I used to be like, wow, I wonder if I'll be less active when we would go visit less active people on my mission. I'd be like, I might be one of these people one day. I used to think that because of again, all the things that were coming together, but also like, trying to stop those thoughts because again, I'm still having these strong spiritual experiences. I was going to the temple while I went to byu. Like, I'm feeling like, oh my gosh, this is a full circle moment. Like the missionary who found my family. We're super close. She's like, aunt to me, Elise, love you. She's probably listening to this because she's like a big. She's like one of my biggest supporters. She's like going with me to the. Walking me into the info. And I think about it like, that is still a spiritual moment for me thinking about that. Like, this is a full circle moment for my family thinking about like, wow, this person that like, brought us this joy. Like, I'm going to do that for other people now. That was like, big, right? And like, I'm the third person that did that in my family. My brother did it, my sister did It. And now I'm doing it.

Serving a Mission as a Black Mormon

John Dehlin [02:49:21] Serving your mission.

Rachel Weaver [02:49:24] So this is all happening all at the same time. So it's like so many thoughts and feelings that I was trying to, like, work out. And again, I want the church to work. I want it to all be true always, even with these hard feelings. That's why I discuss it. It's just like, in relationships or anything, no one's going to talk about something if they don't really want to find a solution. I felt like. Like, if your partner's mad at you, they're not going to bring it up because they just want to talk shit. Like, they want to actually find and get to the bottom and have it not bother them anymore. And that was me. I was always talking about stuff because. Because I wanted it to not bother me. I didn't want it to. And I was trying so hard for it not to. And obviously, once we get towards the end of my story, it ultimately did. But. Yeah, sorry. I said a lot there.

John Dehlin [02:50:05] So Chanel Achenbach, I think she was called to a Southern mission. And Nate, you were like, my brother was your brother. Were. Yeah. What's up with, like, why can't they send black Mormons to, like, London or France?

Rachel Weaver [02:50:18] No, you. You're not wrong. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:19] Or Africa. Or Africa. Right.

Rachel Weaver [02:50:22] They don't. They. They don't send black Americans.

John Dehlin [02:50:23] Sounds like they're sending them disproportionately to the South.

Nate Byrd [02:50:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:27] I want. Is there a. Do we have an. Do we have a.

Nate Byrd [02:50:30] Something to do with the fact that all the people sending us there in their 80s and 90s and.

John Dehlin [02:50:34] Well, what's. What are they thinking?

Rachel Weaver [02:50:36] Well, I think they think that we're gonna help the black people. Yeah. Because that's how my mission president made me feel. And I told. I communicated that to him.

John Dehlin [02:50:42] What do you mean, help the black people?

Nate Byrd [02:50:43] Oh, what is that? Sorry, sorry.

Rachel Weaver [02:50:44] Go ahead. No, what is that?

Nate Byrd [02:50:45] That quote. There was some general authority who gave his prophecy about the south and how it would be like the south would.

Rachel Weaver [02:50:52] Oh, I know what you're talking about. Mission all the time. Baptizing by fire or some crazy something. I know what you're talking about.

Nate Byrd [02:51:00] Nathan baptized by fire. Like, basically this idea that, like, the south was going to lead the church into, like, the new.

Rachel Weaver [02:51:06] The new. They used to read that in our area.

Nate Byrd [02:51:08] And so that's. That probably has something to do with it because the south is more black than the North, I guess they probably want to send black missionaries down there to make that prophecy come true. I don't know, but they pushed it a lot in our mission. I'm pretty.

John Dehlin [02:51:20] Is a black. Is a black Mormon missionary gonna have more success in the south than a white Mormon missionary?

Rachel Weaver [02:51:26] A thousand percent. And I agree on that. I stand on that. Ten toes down.

Nate Byrd [02:51:30] Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [02:51:31] And I say that because.

John Dehlin [02:51:32] Wait, say that again.

Rachel Weaver [02:51:33] I stand on that 10 toes down.

John Dehlin [02:51:34] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [02:51:34] Okay. That's like all your 10 toes. You see, I'm getting comfortable now. And so

Nate Byrd [02:51:40] code switch. Zach. Yeah, that was me.

Rachel Weaver [02:51:42] That was me. Something I would say, not maybe in a podcast, but, you know, and I'm standing on that because my trainer. So she had been in that area six months before I got there. And I served in Alabama, by the way. I don't know if I said that. Alabama. Birmingham. Love Alabama. Great time. Southern people are hilarious. Anyway, she'd been in there six months when I came, and she told me that. That she had more success when I came. People listened to her more and took her more seriously. She said that.

John Dehlin [02:52:10] But there are white people in Alabama, too. So were black missionaries in the south sent to black areas? Predominantly?

Rachel Weaver [02:52:18] I mean, I was. Go ahead, Nate. Sorry. I was sent to both. Like, I was sent to. I mean, I wasn't sent to all white areas because Alabama, the all white areas are racist. So they didn't send me there.

John Dehlin [02:52:30] Was it maybe it wasn't safe for you to go there?

Rachel Weaver [02:52:31] Yeah. Like, there's one area called. Called Coleman, Alabama, that is a sundown town. They never sent a black missionary there because they used to also have way more black missionaries back during the boom when they had changed the age. And there was a really big amount. Alabama was one of the largest missions. It had 300 missionaries, and there were a ton of black missionaries. And I know because my trainer was. She got to the mission when a lot of them were kind of, like, going out. And so there used to be way more, but they never sent them to Coleman because.

John Dehlin [02:52:58] What's a Sundown area?

Rachel Weaver [02:52:59] Sundown Town is a town that is basically like. Like, if a black person is found there when the sun goes down, white people can kind of like, they're basically gonna hunt you down and kill you, and they can do whatever you want. Or, like, the KKK is present there. And they will also, like, in 2023, you're talking.

Nate Byrd [02:53:13] It comes from the Reconstruction era.

Rachel Weaver [02:53:14] Yeah, sorry.

Nate Byrd [02:53:15] They called it Sundown Towns, where basically, like, if you were in that town after sundown, then you probably weren't gonna survive. And that was if you were traveling. Have you heard of the Green Book, which Is like the little book that was written for black people traveling so that they would know what. Where it was safe to be. It's kind of like that. And so, yeah, there are places that are still like that. I mean, you might not die, but it's not going to bode well for

John Dehlin [02:53:35] you if you're not safe for you to be there.

Rachel Weaver [02:53:37] Yeah. And like.

John Dehlin [02:53:37] And there are towns in 2023 that are still referred to as sundown.

Rachel Weaver [02:53:41] Yeah. And, like, I don't think people, like, again, I'm like, nate, I don't think someone's going to gun you down or, like, you're not going to make it out. Like, maybe back in the day. But the idea is still the same of, like, these people. Those racial undertones don't just go away, especially if they're a sundown town that's not just going to dissipate. Like, the civil rights movement was not that long ago.

John Dehlin [02:53:58] Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [02:53:58] Yeah. That was still in my grandma's lifetime.

John Dehlin [02:54:01] Yeah. Oh, well.

Rachel Weaver [02:54:02] And those people still are around in Alabama. There's a lot of old people in Alabama.

John Dehlin [02:54:06] Yeah.

Nate Byrd [02:54:07] I have a. When I went on the. So BYU does what's called a civil rights seminar, which is basically a trip where we. We talk about the civil rights movement and all the things that happened with it during the school year. And then at the end of the school year, we go and take a trip down into Alabama. We go to Montgomery, Birmingham, and to Atlanta and a couple other different places. And while we were down there, there was a museum that we went to that had a KKK robe on display. And one of the people in our group was actually from the town where that was. That. That was from. And so, you know, and she talked about how, like, some of her friends, parents were members of the kkk, how she went over to a friend's house once and was, like, playing hide and seek and found a robe, you know, a white robe and a hood in their closet. You know, things like that. Those things still exist. They're still out there.

John Dehlin [02:54:56] Yeah. Okay. So you weren't sent to those types of towns?

Rachel Weaver [02:55:01] No.

John Dehlin [02:55:01] You were sent to what types of towns?

Rachel Weaver [02:55:04] Yeah, I mean, like, diverse ones, like black and white people. And then I served six months in an area that was, like, majority black, and that was a very pressurizing time. That was a very hard area. But, yeah, my. My trainer did talk about how, like, black people, which I think black people were more receptive. Like, missionaries said this black people were more receptive or nicer to the missionaries than white people were. And the missionaries had that one time I had an elder tell me he hopes that when he knocks on the door, it's a black person. Yeah. I mean, like, I was like, yeah. And he told me. I'm like, I mean, yeah, like, we're not like. That is. That's also my experience, too. I have more black people. Like, black people who were mean were only, like, ever really. It was, like, racialized. They were always like, what color is Jesus? And, like, was Jesus black? Like, that was the energy. And white people were the only ones that were actually, like, genuinely mean to me.

John Dehlin [02:55:55] So on average, black people were more friendly

Rachel Weaver [02:56:01] to the missionaries in Alabama. And, like, the missionaries knew that. So my. Yeah, my trainer, though, said when we talked to black people, like, they were much more likely to listen to us when I. I was there because she, again, been in that area six months, been talking to people, meeting people, and she said, when you came, like, we were. We have more black people that wanted to be taught.

John Dehlin [02:56:19] So what was it like to sell a predominantly white church to black people in the South?

Rachel Weaver [02:56:27] It was interesting. It was quite interesting to me, like.

John Dehlin [02:56:29] Cause you believed in it?

Rachel Weaver [02:56:31] Yeah. Oh, fully. Like gospel. I was like, yeah, yeah, this is it. Like, I think what was hard for me is I expected more black people to be in the wards down there that I went to, because it was. Yeah, those are black. Those areas are probably just as black, if not blacker, than, like, my. Where I grew up. So I expected it to look like my ward at the very least. And it was not. It was way worse. It was like, maybe one member, maybe two.

John Dehlin [02:56:53] So even in predominantly black towns, the Mormon wards were predominantly white.

Rachel Weaver [02:56:59] Yes. More than I had ever experienced. Yeah, I've heard that that was very shocking.

John Dehlin [02:57:03] Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [02:57:03] And I was that for why that is. I think the racial. The racial tone of Southern states is a lot different, and the racial history is different. And a lot of people in the south don't move. They don't. Just, like, I was in, like, very Alabama. There are some, like, towns that are, like, transient people and, like, people that move there for jobs. I was in, like, the boonies. I was in, like, backwood areas. And that was not the case. Like, people live there forever and their kids there, and they stay there. And so I think that that had a very strong impact because I think about my, like, great grandmother when she heard that we joined the church. She grew up in Mississippi, and her thoughts with the church, like, that's a racist, like, white church. They don't like black people. That's what my great grandmother told me when we joined. And so, like, those are the same people that, like, though were, like, those people had kids in those areas and lived there. And so I think Southern people might have thought the same. But a lot of. We taught a lot of black people, though, like, baptizing, not as much, but we taught a ton of black people. And so it was kind of. I always felt, like, weird about that. Like, I was always like, oh, I'm gonna baptize them and drop them off in this white wart that I hope knows how to care for them racially. And my first mission president was actually really good about talking about this. We talk about it in our interviews. He was like, you know, we baptize black people and white people the same, you know, proportional to the state population. He was like, but the inactivity rate for black people is much higher. Because he's like, we baptize them, and they have nobody that they can relate to. They have nobody that can talk to them. And so it was nice having. Because my mission president was on his final year when I got in, so it was nice to have someone who, like, okay, like, my mission president's with it. Like, he understands. He sees that's a problem. And we talked about blacks in the priesthood in our interviews, and he seemed pretty, like, open. I wouldn't say he was progressive, but he was definitely, like, very aware and was like, we need to figure this out for the gospel, if that makes sense. Like, it wasn't from, like, a justice standpoint or, like, this is not fair. This is like, we need this for the Lord's work. And, like, what can we do to help this so that, like, more people stay? Which was, like, better than I expected. I expected him to just, like, not care at all, but he cared some.

John Dehlin [02:59:13] Is it unfair to say that the white Mormon members were less hospitable to black people than the white Mormon members were in Chicago?

Nate Byrd [02:59:24] No.

Rachel Weaver [02:59:24] At least to me. I was also a missionary, which is privilege, being a missionary people, especially in the south, they acted like we were going to war. Okay? Like, they treated us so well, like the missionaries. So I don't. Like, I never saw any people that I was teaching be treated that way. So I'm gonna say no, because I never saw white people ever treating black people I brought to church white Mormons, nor were they ever treating me poorly. They said some weird things. Like, one time I was called colored, and I was like, okay, I'm in Alabama. Like, you're giving old lady. Okay, Like, I'm excuse this right now, but, like, nothing wrong. And really, my whole mission, I had no bad racial experiences from members, which is shocking. But I think I genuinely believe, like, at the time, this is how I thought. Like, God knew I couldn't handle that because I would have left my mission with where I was coming out on my mission again. Remember everything I told you up to where I was and how I thought if that had happened, I would have been like, and it's a wrap. This is not no more for me. And so I genuinely just never did. I experience weird things. Yeah. Like, I'm teaching someone in their house, and they've got three Confederate flags up. I'm screaming on the inside, like, what is going on? Like, I'm a good black person to them, you know? And so it was just moments like that that made me. That were very jarring or, you know, realizing one of the towns I served in is where one of the KKK branches began. That's crazy casual, you know, And I'm just scooting up and down here, teaching people about Jesus. And so those were, like, moments that made me go, huh, that's interesting. But I think my mission, more so than racially things stood out to me. I think doctrinally is where I started to be confused, because I don't really think I understood doctrine in the way that I did on my mission. My mission is where I was reading the scriptures every day for hours, and I really understood what the church's teachings were because I was teaching it to people. I knew what being exalted meant. I knew what it meant to live with God again. I knew what that actually meant, because we say that a lot in the church, but do we really know what that means or what that requires? And so really understanding that is, I felt like I grew up in a very, like, lackadaisical ward. Like, it's cool. God loves everyone. Just try your best, and you're gonna make it to be with him. And my mission is where I learn. That is not true. That is not what the church teaches. That's what we sell people. But that is not the reality. Like, the church is where I learned. Like, oh, you want people to complete all the saving ordinances. You have to be baptized. You have to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. You have to be endowed. Get the priesthood if you're a man. And you have to be sealed in the temple to be fully exalted, to really live with God, to get all the full blessings that we talk about. That's what you have to do. That was crazy to me when I really realized that and understood what that meant, because I'm meeting people that are the most amazing people. I'm meeting people who are so kind, so nice, like, people who genuinely care for me as a person, even though they're not a part of the church, and they have good lives and they're doing good work. They're good. They're helping their community, they're serving in their churches. And you're telling me that these people I'm developing deep relationship with, wonderful connections with wonderful spiritual experiences with. They are not going to be with me in God because they don't want to do it this way. That was a. That didn't sit well with me. And it also didn't make. And also meeting people from so many, like. Like, hard life circumstances as well. Like, seeing people who, you know, had a lot of financial struggle or mental health issues or just, like, life circumstances that prevented them from even really being fully in the church if they wanted to. And seeing that firsthand as a missionary, I was like, there's no way that this is the only way. Because I'm like, how the hell are we going to exclude them because of their challenges? This. They're not like, yeah, they're going to get baptized. This person is not getting endowed. That is not happening. Let's be so for real right now. And so, because to me, I'm like, so now I know that because they're not going to get endowed, they can't, like, live with God. Again, like, that did not make any sense to me because I was meeting people who were literally, I felt, like, better than me or better than half the members I knew were doing better things, and half the members I knew. And if we're going to say who deserves to live with God, they do. And because they didn't do it our way, it wasn't gonna work. That's when I really started, like, this started to not make sense to me and really understanding also what eternal marriage was and what that expectation looked like to live with, like, to be exalted. Right. That's when my issues with the LGBTQ community all started to really come up with me.

John Dehlin [03:04:16] On your mission?

Rachel Weaver [03:04:17] Yeah. And realizing, oh, there's no way to work around this. There's no, like, wiggle room. That's basically how I felt leaving my mission. Like, the doctrine. You can't really, like, there is no, like, yeah, we're gonna make consolidations, which a lot of Mormon apologists try to do, and, like, different People who, you know, try to help you to massage your issues with the church. It's like, no, this is. There's. There's one way, and you can't really get around that. And I feel like that's what I learned on my mission.

John Dehlin [03:04:43] So the. The traditional Mormon apologetic response to what you just said is, rachel, you don't understand. That's why we have temple work, endowments for the dead, ceilings for the dead, all those wonderful people, white people, black people, who aren't going to accept the gospel in this life. They've got just as good of a chance as us Mormons to be exalted living with Heavenly Father. And that's why the temples and temple proxy work for the dead is so amazing. Surely, as a missionary, you believe that. And you could have connected those dots and said, well, if these people don't accept in this life, they'll accept in the next life and be just as good or better off than the Mormons. Right.

Rachel Weaver [03:05:25] That's what the next step would be.

John Dehlin [03:05:27] But then what made you think that there was a problem there if the church had a workaround?

Rachel Weaver [03:05:32] Well, that kind of came later. Like, after my mission as I kind of figured out my thoughts on that. I think I just. To me, again, I'm on my mission as well, so I'm trying. Like, that made sense at the time, if that makes sense. Like now. That's not where I ended, so I'll save that for that point in my story. But that's what I ended on. On my mission was like, okay, we'll have. The millennium Temples will be open all the time. Everybody can be baptized. You know what I mean? And so that was kind of, like, comforting, I guess, at the time. That's kind of how I, like, made sense of things in that moment. It still didn't fully sit right with me, though. Like, he didn't feel like that was the final answer, but it made sense for now, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [03:06:18] Yeah, I mean, if I'm answering my own question, if this life is so crucial, if this is, like, if we were created for this life, and the purpose of this life is to accept Jesus and believe in God and. And get the ordinances and the temple marriage and raise your kids and live the plan of salvation, right? Then you look at the 99.95% of the world's population that don't get to live the plan, and you just think, wow, God, couldn't you have done better for the rest of everybody?

Rachel Weaver [03:06:52] Yeah, that's one of the things I also Thought about a lot on my mission. For me, it was like, why did God make his job so hard? That'll make no sense to me. To me, it was like. I think I was like, just getting baptized is good enough for me. Like, that's good enough. That should be enough for God. Why do I have to go through all these other steps to prove that I'm, you know, gonna follow him or whatnot? And so I think that's one of the things I struggled with, was, like, I felt like God made his job really hard. That's how I felt on my mission. The more I learned, the more doctrine I learned, the more I learned about ordinances and covenants and all that. I was like, there are not a lot of people doing this. Especially as you're going out teaching people. There are people. People don't even want to get baptized. People don't even. Like, they're not. They could be going inactive after two months. Like, that is if they join. If they join, right? So I'm like, they're not gonna make it to getting endowed. And then also, I was thinking, all the people I know about getting married as also, I'm not coming into myself and understanding dating and whatnot. I'm like, so I can't be exalted because I didn't find a person I liked that. Again, these are all the things that started, like, going through my head as I was on my mission. I didn't necessarily have a ton of answ answers or figured them out, but these are just thoughts I had that I was like, that doesn't make sense. This doesn't add up. I don't understand why all these things and they weren't piecing together. And a very strong experience that I had. It wasn't one particular. It was just this feeling. Because, again, my mission, I'll still say, was one of the best experiences of my life. I love the people I met. I would never talk down my mission. And, like, the spiritual experiences I had were real. And I feel like, helped me to know who God is and who Christ is and how they show up in people's lives. And I still believe that to this day. And I think realizing those experiences I was having that were so strong and impacting me and changing, I felt like the. The, like, who I was as a person, they were changing like my DNA as an individual. That's how I felt on my mission and realizing, oh, wait, before 1978, I would have not been able to have these experiences because I could not get endowed. Coming to Terms with that was very difficult for me because I was like, so because of the color of my skin, say, in my grandma's lifetime, when she turned 19, she would not have been able to do this if she wanted to if she was in the church. That was very big for me and caused a lot of contention and feelings about the Prophet and their validity. Because I was like, that doesn't like, if this is so good. But I couldn't have because I was black. That was so mind boggling to me. And that's when I knew I was like, well, if prophets are like, you know, they're flawed and this was like something that, because they were racist, this wasn't of God. So then how do I know that anything else that they're saying is true? Because if we're going to keep on the same track, like, we can't accept one and not accept the other. That's a fact fallacy. That doesn't work. And so for me, I stopped teaching follow the Prophet on my mission because I'm like, my commander asked me. I'm like, I'm not teaching that because follow the Prophet. That means that I'm accepting that I shouldn't be here right now, that I would not be here having these experiences with these amazing people who are changing my life and the way I view humanity. So I was like, no, that doesn't. That did not make sense to me. And that's also, again, where the issues with the LGBTQ community came. Because people love to say. Because I'm like, well, there's a lot of things in the Bible that they say that we don't follow. So why are we believing this? One little line about gay people, you know, but there's a lot of things that we don't follow. And people are like, well, there's modern prophets and they've given us recent revelation. The prophets also said that black people shouldn't be endowed. So to me, it was like, I can't accept that they're flawed in this way, but they're right in this way way. And, you know, as I got home and I was talking to people about this, they'd be like, well, God's not going to fault you for following the Prophet. If they end up being wrong, I don't want to be on that side of history. I'm serious. That's what people would say. Because I was so, like, intensely speaking about these things when I got home from my mission because, again, I didn't want them to be true. I didn't want to Accept that this might not be it. So I'm trying to get answers. I'm talking to anyone I can about this shit.

John Dehlin [03:11:06] On your mission?

Rachel Weaver [03:11:07] No, off my mission.

John Dehlin [03:11:08] Yeah. Because so really quick circling back when you were talking about all the things you were learning as a high school black Mormon young woman, the first thing that came to my mind is, well, as soon as you were able to accept the explanation that all those past racist, prophetic Mormon teachings and even scripture were erroneous, that prophets made mistakes, what I was wanting what the dots I was wanting your high school self to connect is, well, then what does it mean to have a prophet? What is a prophet? Why do we follow a prophet? If the Church has a prophet and if they can't get it right 20 years ago or 50 years ago, or 100 years ago, 150 years ago, then why do we believe them now and pay attention to what they say now? I. I was wanting your high school self to draw those dots. And at the same time, I wasn't, because I was experiencing, as you were telling your story, how the Church was lifting you up and getting you an education and getting you opportunities, friendships.

Rachel Weaver [03:12:14] Don't draw those dots.

John Dehlin [03:12:15] So I was wanting you to draw those dots, draw those connections, connect those dots. And I was not wanting you to connect those dots. And it sounds like it was your mission where you started to connect those dots.

Rachel Weaver [03:12:24] Yes, because I was really understanding everything. That's why I say it was all slowly starting to come together. The experiences were connecting. And again, the profit thing really was what sent me over the edge. And again. But I'm still having these amazing experiences. Right. So then I guess, like, my mission ended fine. Like, nothing crazy. I get home from my mission and I.

John Dehlin [03:12:45] So you loved it. And would you say you left your mission with a stronger testimony than before you went stronger. Stronger. So you had a stronger testimony at the end of your mission than when you went into it. So the peak of. So by the time you leave your mission, it's the peak of your Mormon testimony. Wow.

Rachel Weaver [03:13:01] 100%. Because even though I'm having these other thoughts, they are being outweighed by the spiritual experiences I'm having, which, like, come now, looking back, those experiences happen when you're interacting with amazing people.

John Dehlin [03:13:14] So what are those? Tell us what those are.

Rachel Weaver [03:13:17] Okay, let me take.

John Dehlin [03:13:17] What are those?

Rachel Weaver [03:13:18] Like, some experiences I gotta think about. I just, I don't wanna cry thinking about some of the people that I just met there. I met people who were in really rough circumstances and, like, had just so much Hope about like life and like being able to like still work through things. Like people in some of the like, poorest areas, dirtiest, most like impoverished places I've ever seen. And people are just happy because they love God. They love. They literally, if you've ever met Southern people, you know what I'm talking about, they just, they're putting everything to the Lord and they're like, he is the reason why I'm just still breathing. People who have medical problems that should be dead but aren't for some reason, right? And they're just thanking God every day to breathe and just seeing the simple things of life and how I was so unaware of like the small things. I think that's one of the biggest things. People will always pray for us whenever we would pray. And that was something that was always so mind boggling to me. They wouldn't even pray for themselves. They pray for us, the missionaries at their house, right? Or every. So many people in the south were just like, I'm grateful to be alive today. These seem like small things. But like seeing how grateful people were for small things, it helped me to start realizing like I have so many things to be grateful for in my life. I have things that are happening to me that, that like, and it connects to privilege to me right now, seeing it looking back, like I'm privileged, like I get to move my body every day. That's a blessing, right? Like that's something that not everybody has. I have the ability to know how to communicate my feelings and my thoughts. That's something not all people have. And meeting people and seeing people who didn't have those things also like, really humbled me and helped me to see, like, wow, there's a lot of things that I'm ungrateful for and a lot of things that I complained about and like issue, like racial issues were important, but these are people who don't even know when they're going to eat again. These are people who have roach infested houses. And I'm over here mad about something a bishop said to me. Does that make sense what I'm saying? And I'm meeting people who are helping me to understand like what humanity is. I think at the time I was interpreting it as like, these are like spiritual, like God like moments which like, like if that's how you interpret it, I don't judge it and that's fine. But I think I really just got to know who people are as a core and what like, I guess humanism is and caring for another person. Which is why a mission to me is like kind of creating certain spiritual experiences for, like, we're. We're like cooking up spiritual experiences to me, because anytime you're working with populations like that, you're going to have experiences that change who you are as a person. Especially at the time in life that I was as well, like 19. I'm very, like, my brain's still very malleable. I'm very easily, like, susceptible to change and understanding. I think those experiences really, again, at the time they were wrapped up in, like, spiritually, like the church is true because it's helping me to like, create this relationship with people in this way. God and Christ and the gospel of Christ is what brought this to me.

John Dehlin [03:16:27] Me.

Rachel Weaver [03:16:28] Right, Right. Like, we would sing Brightly Beams Our Father's Mercy as our closing song in all of our zone conferences. And that song, I mean, even still, the religious trauma is real. Like, it still means something to me, that song. Because that's how I felt. Like we were the lower lights for people. People are having like, shitty days, hard days. And like, my random, like, the people that did like us, we're coming to. And we were bringing happiness to people that wanted to talk to us, the ones. And we were bringing joy even if they didn't join the church. We still help people to have a better day. And. And those are experiences that I'll forever hold close to me that I got to meet amazing people and see that there are so many good people in the world. And again, that's what started making me think, you don't have to be LDS to be a good person or have a good life. Because look at these amazing people that will never join the church that I still talk to. I remember one person, Tyrone Love, that man. I messaged him on Facebook still. And he's just like this happy man and just like a joyous person who loved to talk to us. I don't think he would ever join the church, but I think he liked talking to people that made him happy. I think he liked talking to people that brought goodness to him. And we were happy, young, cute little girls, you know, so of course he liked to talk to us and talk about God and, you know, so it's just experiences like that that helped me to see that people, people are amazing, people are resilient and I don't know, the human race is powerful. And I want, like, that's connection is so powerful to me. Nate knows this. This is like a life value of mine. Like, connecting with people in relationships are so important. To me, because I think my mission showed me that, like, understanding people and who they are and where they come from is so valuable. Because another thing that I learned, this is really side note, helped me to have more compassion for conservative people or people who, like, are not understanding of, like, diverse experiences. Because one of the people I taught on my mission, Joe Davis, love him. Taught him for a long time. He couldn't stop drinking coffee, which is one of the reasons why he didn't get baptized, which was so anyway. But he was, you know, he would say crazy stuff about immigrant people, and I was like, oh, okay. I'm ignored that because, you know, I'm like a year out now, so I'm very far removed from social justice. Rachel Weaver, right. I'm Sister Weaver. I was not Rachel Weaver at that point. And he would say things, but understanding who he was and where his life experience is. Yeah. He don't know no immigrants. What does he know? What Fox News tells him, bless his heart. You know what I mean? Like, he doesn't know anything other than his experiences. And it really helped me to have compassion for people with different, different experiences than myself. I don't have to necessarily accept your problematic behavior or harmful rhetoric or comments or whatever it may be, but I can understand you and I can have compassion for you, and I can try to meet you where you're at to understand why being accepting of all people and all things is, like, part of being a good person.

John Dehlin [03:19:28] Yeah. I loved Bradley Beams Our Father's Mercy.

Rachel Weaver [03:19:32] That was my mission song. Even still, when I hear it is like, because you don't. You don't hear that often in churches. No one really sings that. And my mission president did that on purpose.

John Dehlin [03:19:41] Yeah. So it sounds like you were inspired by just the hope and the faith of some of these. Many of these people. I bet the generosity, too, right?

Rachel Weaver [03:19:52] Oh, people were so kind to us.

John Dehlin [03:19:54] Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [03:19:54] Like, there are people who are mean, but I never encounter crazy, mean people. I encounter, like, the nicest people I've ever met.

John Dehlin [03:20:01] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. So because the church was giving you these opportunities to meet these amazing, inspiring people, and you were taught that positive emotion is the Holy Ghost. That's an amazing spiritual year and a

Rachel Weaver [03:20:18] half for you, Ahai.

John Dehlin [03:20:20] Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [03:20:20] That's why I came back so dedicated to the gospel, because I'm like, well, this is what I have to do to continue feeling like this.

Nate Byrd [03:20:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:27] Yeah. Okay. So by the end of your mission, you're, like, feeling better than ever about the church, but your cognitive dissonance Also reached a new level as a missionary.

Rachel Weaver [03:20:37] 100% again. And I also think at this point, I had. I don't know how or why I did this, but I felt I was mad at God as well in certain ways. When I started to come home and the months after, because I was angry of who he made me to be.

John Dehlin [03:20:53] Be.

Rachel Weaver [03:20:53] Basically, that's how I felt. Kind of what I talked about earlier, like, oh, if I was, you know, less liberal and progressive in my thinking, I'd have an easier time in the church. I was like, God, why would you make the LDS Church this freaking white? And you want me to exist in this for real? Like, you want me to be down for real for this?

Nate Byrd [03:21:13] I can relate to that. I felt a lot of anger.

Rachel Weaver [03:21:15] I was like, come on.

Nate Byrd [03:21:16] I didn't know what to call it

Rachel Weaver [03:21:17] because it's like, I'm feeling great. Like, this church at the time, I'm like, this is where I need to be. But I'm also like, wait, I can't fucking exist in this shit. So it's like, God, what the hell do you want me to do? That's how I felt. I was like, what do you want? What do you want from me? I served the mission. I did what you wanted. I had these amazing experiences. But now I'm realizing that it's actually not meshing. Because I don't know about you, Nate. Like, the time coming home, you're starting to see, like, the things and, like, experiences that I had before my mission. I kind of, like, reconfigured them. And I blamed myself. I was like, I am. I was the problem. I was always seeing, like, there were issues racially, or I was always like, I had to make it make sense to me, right? Because how do I have this amazing spiritual experiences where, like, this is the true place for me that I believe the true gospel. But then it's also like, this is a very. Like, I had these really rough experiences on my mission. And, like, again, the church indoctrinates you like a mother while you're out on your mission. You know what I mean? And so it's gonna make you. It's gonna force you to be like, well, I guess I gotta start looking at myself. And so I started questioning everything that happened before, and I started blaming myself, like, oh, no, I looked at this wrong, or I did this. And then coming back to byu, the months that I came back, I think that's when, like, some racial questions were asked on. Inappropriate racial questions were asked on that panel. So there was this Panel of like black American and like black, like African students. And someone had like.

Nate Byrd [03:22:47] It was during black history.

Rachel Weaver [03:22:48] It was during Black history month, month. And there were anonymous questions that people could ask. This is February of 2020. They were anonymous questions and people were just asking inappropriate ones, racialized ones, like asking something about black on black crime.

Nate Byrd [03:23:03] Black people, why can't I say the N word?

Rachel Weaver [03:23:05] Oh, why can't I say? Why is there not a white history? Just stuff that I was kind of like, oh, yeah, protected from for the last year and a half. Right. Because I came back Thanksgiving of 2019. This is February 2020. So then all this blaming that I had done and built up to my head, now I'm starting to be. And being back in that white ass environment of byu, I'm like, oh, wait, those experiences, I didn't lie to myself. Those were real. So now I'm coming to this point of like, okay, that's when that anger started to come of like, God, what do you want me to do? Because these experiences were real. I wasn't lying to myself. I wasn't like, I didn't make it up in my head or I didn't see the situations wrong. No, I saw them right. And now trying to like, figure out how to reconcile that with my mission experience with being this very spiritual person and like feeling like the Book of Mormon is true. Right. Like, my patriarchal blessing talks about me and the scriptures and my patriarchal blessing talks about how I'll be wronged by people. It literally uses that language. So it's just like all these things that I'm like trying to figure out and having experiences with and I'm wrestling with.

Spiritual Doubts and Beginning to Question Mormonism

John Dehlin [03:24:17] It sounds like through age 21, 22, you were kind of spiritually satisfied with Mormonism. You were doctrinally bought into Mormonism because you were able to discount out the bad stuff. Yeah, but socially and culturally, you were isolated and kind of withdrawn. But at some point it's almost like self segregation. You were kind of segregating yourself, saying, I'm not really part of the church in all the ways, I'm holding back to protect myself.

Rachel Weaver [03:24:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:24:59] But now that I'm in my 20s and I'm a returned missionary and in some ways I'm legitimate. I'm not just like the child of some converts. I've like served two years of a mission, I'm educated, I'm at byu. Like, I'm ready to enter the church in all the ways as an adult woman who's paid her dues. You're probably Thinking, but I don't want to enter this social and cultural nightmare.

Rachel Weaver [03:25:28] And it's.

John Dehlin [03:25:29] Is that right?

Rachel Weaver [03:25:30] Yeah. And like, it's still excluding me, no matter how bad I want to fit in. Right. That. That piece of me, like, kind of blaming myself was me trying to, you know, maneuver my way into fitting into whiteness by still being kind of authentic to myself. Right. But then realizing that those things actually weren't working well together. And really, that was the year home for my mission, really what I was processing. And again, those red flags of things that I had brought up on my mission or brought up even just in my youth, those things were still there. They still bothered me and were still present. But I had things that I felt like were giving me satisfying answers at the time and really weren't pressing me. But combining that within that year of me coming home was an interesting just time. I don't know if you have any more questions about that. It's hard to articulate because I just. There was so much that happened happened and so many feelings. And that cognitive dissonance was so strong. And I was going back and forth with my feelings because then also, like, my whole family's LDS and very lds.

John Dehlin [03:26:35] Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [03:26:35] My brother got married in the temple. My sister got married in the temple. This mission while you were on your mission or my sister got married while I was gone. My brother got married the month after I got back.

John Dehlin [03:26:43] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [03:26:43] And again, we're. We're in the temple. And the missionary that found my family, she's like, aunt, remember, at this point, to me, she's not married still, and she's in her late 30s and she's in there like, crying like, you guys are like my children. God help me to find you guys. You guys are like my kids. And I'm feeling like that too. Like, wow. Like, these are strong emotional experiences because we're also connected as people, but are also tied in religion. You know what I mean? Like, all of these things just couple together. And again, I'm still not wanting to ever leave the church. I don't ever want to be that way, even though I do have that little kind of like, scratch in the back of my head that's there. And I think about it, it's still not something I'm really ready to accept or willing to accept and fearful of accepting because even if these things actually do bother me to the point that I go away, what does that mean for me? And that was scary.

John Dehlin [03:27:37] So you come home triumphant from your mission. Your testimony's at an all time High. Was there like that a first year of, like, optimism where it's just like, I'm going to go to a normal war. I'm going to date white boys, I'm going to volunteer or have jobs, and I'm just going to integrate myself, take away all my barriers, take away all my hesitance.

Rachel Weaver [03:28:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:28:00] And if you. Okay, you're saying yes.

Rachel Weaver [03:28:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:28:02] And what happened when you tried to just be full Rachel in full white byu, you know, faithful Mormon structures?

Rachel Weaver [03:28:11] It didn't feel right. It didn't work. I didn't, like, have successful dating. I tried. Nobody was super interested in me. And I was like, cool, that's fine. You know, I'm still just like an extrovert, a happy person. So I'm just, you know, moving it along, you know, And I still didn't really.

John Dehlin [03:28:26] That's sad, right? Like, to see everyone. Like, if BYU's about anything, it's a meat market for Mormons to date and find their eternal companion. Almost every person we've ever interviewed on Mormon stories who's white got married within a year of returning home from their mission. So not only are they dating furiously in their year, right after their mission, but they're married by the end of that first year. The majority. So, like, you just sort of say, okay, I tried to date and it didn't work and I was fine. For me, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's, like, not okay. It's not typical. And I don't want to make it sound sad or pathetic, but it's really sad.

Rachel Weaver [03:29:12] Yeah, you're correct.

John Dehlin [03:29:14] It seems to me like you would have felt really sad to see everybody else passing, go collecting $200.

Rachel Weaver [03:29:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:29:21] Dating up a storm, finding their eternal companion and being married within four to six months.

Rachel Weaver [03:29:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:29:26] And you're saying no one was interested in you?

Rachel Weaver [03:29:29] I mean, a little bit, but not. Not where it should have been.

John Dehlin [03:29:34] Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [03:29:34] And again, that's why these things started to come back up. Because I was trying, I was doing.

John Dehlin [03:29:40] And you kind of had earned. You had earned a good experience by then. Right.

Rachel Weaver [03:29:46] I'm very lds. I'm very spiritual. I want to read my kids the scriptures. Why am I not. What is the problem now? Because before, yeah, okay, I was very outspoken, very left progressive LDS woman. I could see that. And those parts were still there. But that wasn't something that I always brought up or like, something that was at the front of mind, if that makes sense. Not that the nation had muted your

John Dehlin [03:30:08] activism, is that what you're saying?

Rachel Weaver [03:30:09] Yes. And so it was just feeling like, dang, this still isn't again, like those parts of self blame all those things coming back and realizing, no, it still is this institution. It still is this church. It still is like this space. I don't. And I felt like I didn't know necessarily how to. I was just like, lost again. That's why I said the cognitive dissonance was crazy.

John Dehlin [03:30:34] It sounds like even though you had paid your dues by this point and muted the vocal, strong activist self. It sounds like that sophomore year at byu, you gave BYU your everything and you still found that you weren't accepted. No matter. By that point you had given everything and you just weren't accepted.

Rachel Weaver [03:30:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:31:00] Is that right?

Rachel Weaver [03:31:00] Yeah. And I started to gravitate towards, like, being friends with mostly only black people by, like the end of my first year, just because I was like. And I thought that would work. And I tried it for a little bit and I was like, back to where I. Back to where I was before. And so I had less. Like, I was still friends with some of my Polynesian friends, but my main friend group became like the BSU and the black students in Provo. And then I eventually did date someone later in. We started dating in January of 2021.

Tokenization, George Floyd, and the BYU Race Report

John Dehlin [03:31:30] Was it other areas than dating? Like, was it jobs? Was it classroom experiences? Were there other ways you felt not accepted or, you know, not like a full fledged legit member? Or was it in every way?

Rachel Weaver [03:31:44] Well, Covid hit. So March of 2020 is when Covid hit. So that kind of stopped a lot of opportunities for me to interact with people. And Utah definitely went back to normal quicker than most places. But there still was a period of time where there was just very little interaction. So it was that first racial experience that had happened right when I got back at that thing. And yeah, I think just the overall feeling of being back in that space because when you're a missionary, you're protected. Because although I was black, I was a missionary, so my value was higher. I felt like. But being back, I was just like a regular person again. And that kind of took away that, you know, the. What is it called? The. When they set you apart?

John Dehlin [03:32:30] The mantle.

Rachel Weaver [03:32:31] The mantle, yeah. It was like it was gone for real. And I didn't feel that, like, warm fuzzy from everyone. If anything, I felt very tokenized. Cause I did go to a white ward for the bit before COVID hit. My, like, award. I was assigned and I felt very tokenized.

John Dehlin [03:32:48] What do you mean by that?

Rachel Weaver [03:32:49] So I felt like they were Proud that they had a black woman who was a returned missionary who was, you know, gonna teach and relieve society and, you know, had this diverse perspective and diverse voice that was like in their ward. And they're like, happy for that.

John Dehlin [03:33:07] It sounds like you're not saying it's because they really wanted to get to know you and be a part of your life.

Rachel Weaver [03:33:11] Like, who I was and what I represented is what people liked. Like, oh, and my story, it's like

John Dehlin [03:33:17] the church is a racist look.

Rachel Weaver [03:33:18] Racist story, right? Like, this convert family who now, like, I'm at byu, I served a mission. I'm like, it's just like what I represented really. And like, who I was that I felt was like, more valuable. And that's why I felt tokenized because then I also, again, was not being my full self. Remember that activism part was. And so I was like, you only like it because I'm not actually calling out all the bullshit that we really should. The parts. Again, those red flags were still popping off, but I wasn't acknowledging them in the same capacity. Slowly over the year of me being home, they started to become more of again, like I said, I kept talking about it and more of issues. And then when I, I bring up that relationship because when I started dating this person, that is when things really changed for me. For me. No, they were a black person.

John Dehlin [03:34:05] Okay, okay.

Rachel Weaver [03:34:06] And I, and I bring that up because being with that person, we were on a very similar spiritual journey and feeling very empowered to like, move away from the church is what kind of happened in that, like 10 month relationship

John Dehlin [03:34:21] before we jump into that, you know, privilege is about not even noticing the water you're swimming in. And I think the average orthodox Mormon would probably say Mormons are racist. BYU is not racist. Like, Mormons are taught to love everyone. Mormons are never taught to hate people of color. And we do our best to accept everyone and to love everyone. And Jesus said love everyone. And I never call people the N word. I never talk down to someone or speak negatively about them. If they're. I include them. And so like, I'm a BYU student and I'm nice to everyone. And so how in the world could you have a bad experience at byu? It's, it's. BYU is like Happy Valley. There's ice cream and there's football games and everybody's nice. How in the world did you ever. How did you experience racism at byu?

Rachel Weaver [03:35:17] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [03:35:18] Like, we're all nice and we all love. In fact, we love black people more

Rachel Weaver [03:35:21] than white people because, like, we're so

John Dehlin [03:35:23] excited to support them. That's. I think the average active orthodox Morgan would feel that way. So help them see what they're not seeing, if you can.

Rachel Weaver [03:35:32] Yeah, I think. Well, I think part of the problem was I felt overvalued for my blackness, but also undervalued at the same time.

John Dehlin [03:35:40] Whoa.

Rachel Weaver [03:35:42] Yeah. I felt like you're overvalued because, like, wow, there are no black LDS people. And I always got the vibe, like I said earlier, I think I said, I know the game because I was very competent in LDS white spaces. And there are black people who are not. Who join the church. And I don't mean that in, like, a rude way. I mean that in like a. That's why I was valued, because I was able to talk spiritually at the same level as someone else. I was able to. You know, I had examples of the things I had done that improved, like, my spiritual capacity and what I had done and how committed I was to the church. But then parts of my blackness, like. Like, this is also because, again, George Floyd is now happening during COVID time. And people from my mission, they overly value that blackness in me. And seeing the overwhelming polarization that happened from that and seeing people that are not valuing that part of my blackness, because that's a part of me being black, too. They don't want to accept that, though. And saying all lives matter and seeing that whole aftermath of. Of, you know, people that you. I'm taking the sacrament bread from the same tray as you. We're sitting on the same row, we're in the same pews, we're going to the same temple session. And you not valuing that or seeing how that's important is really making me feel excluded because you're not seeing how this is impacting my life. And I think that the racial things from 2020 really changed my view because I feel like people really picked a side and stayed with it. And a lot of people in the church chose to be colorblind, chose to ignore, chose to minimize, and that spoke volumes to me. And I bet Nate feels similar. I want to make sure you share a little bit about that for you, because I feel like that was a very big time for a lot of black members, that people got a chance to stand up and say what they thought about racial things or injustices, and people chose to stay silent or speak the other way.

Nate Byrd [03:37:42] Yeah. You know, you talked earlier about how when you were on your mission, you weren't Rachel Weaver, you were Sister Weaver. And that struck a chord with me, because I was the same way. Like, I was elder Bird. Like, I. I might as well have forgotten my first name. I gave everything, like, everything I had to my mission. And I felt a lot of anger when I got home, too, because I had put everything aside. Like, all the identity that I had started to form, I just, you know, I sacrificed it for the sake of my mission. So when racial things would happen, I would just kind of bury it down. And that anger would come up sometimes, but I would always push it back down and say, no, no, no, I'm the problem. I need to work better with my companion, or I need to be more compassionate with this member, my mission president. I would express some of these frustrations with him, and he would tell me to be more warm and more loving toward people. So I'd be like, okay, well, I'm the problem. I got to be more loving. Yeah. And then coming home, feeling that anger and not really knowing what to do with it, trying to figure out how to balance the side of myself that was trying to be a black man and then the side of myself that was trying to be a Mormon man. And it was, like, a pretty excruciating struggle that I went through for a long time. But, like, at the same time, I felt so much fear, and, like, it never. Like, I wouldn't allow myself to think of a life with me outside of the church. So I was trying to figure out how to reconcile those two, but they just don't mix. Like, you being a black person and also being in the church, there's always a duality. And, like, you can say that you're good with it, but there's always that duality. And some people learn to live with that duality.

Rachel Weaver [03:39:10] And they're okay with it.

Nate Byrd [03:39:11] And they're okay with it. Yeah. Like, I know people who are black and in the church, and they've learned to live with that. But I feel like there are certain key indicators. If we're talking mission words, there's certain things that people do where I'm like, okay, you're not okay with this duality.

Rachel Weaver [03:39:23] And you.

Nate Byrd [03:39:23] You're. You've started your journey. You know, you started. But then there are other people who. Who learn to live with it, and they're. They're good with where they are. But, yeah, it's being black and. And being LDs are. They're. They're. They're polar opposites, really.

Rachel Weaver [03:39:38] Yeah. And what's crazy is all of the negative rhetoric that is surrounding not being in a church that everyone Feels, no matter what race or whatever you are, like, where will you go? Where's their truth? Who will you have all those ideas? That's still there for us, but we're also having very strong racial experiences that are giving us extreme red flags that are making us feel excluded. But that fear that the church kind of puts in you of leaving, that's like. That's also still there. But it's like this very strong, like, racial experience that's like, this is not for you. These people don't care for you. So it's that hard, like, in between. And also another answer to what you were saying for the average LDS person, Something that also happened during this time.

Nate Byrd [03:40:25] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [03:40:26] Can I ask one quick question?

Rachel Weaver [03:40:27] Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [03:40:27] Will you remember? Will you put a pin in what you were about? I want you to forget.

Rachel Weaver [03:40:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:40:31] So one of the things that really sucks, like talking about George Floyd and Black Lives Matter and All Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter.

Rachel Weaver [03:40:38] Oh, my gosh, yes.

John Dehlin [03:40:39] To the average Mormon. Orthodox Mormon, Mormon in Utah, when they say all lives matter, it's almost like, in their minds, they're not like, I hate black people. White people are better. In their minds, I think they're probably pulling that scripture, all are like unto God.

Rachel Weaver [03:40:55] Yes, they are.

John Dehlin [03:40:56] And they're saying, well, we love black

Rachel Weaver [03:40:57] people, Black and white, male and female or something.

John Dehlin [03:41:02] And so when they say all lives matter, they're basically trying to say, yes, black lives matter, but everyone matters. And in the gospel of Jesus Christ, we love everybody. So in their minds, they don't think they're being racist or even devaluing your experience. They think they're lifting the conversation to the highest level, which is the level of God and Jesus, which is that, like, everyone matters. Let's get to that point. And they would probably quote Martin Luther King, Jr. Who said, let's not judge people by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. That's what's frustrating is in their minds, they don't think they're being racist. They don't think they're being invalidating. They think they're being Christlike.

Rachel Weaver [03:41:42] Yeah. And can you help?

John Dehlin [03:41:44] I know it's not your job to teach. Help people see why that's not why that feels something very different from your perspective.

Rachel Weaver [03:41:51] Yeah. One of the examples that I think Paul Reeves, he wrote an article about to help LDS people understand this. Specifically, he gave the example of when. When everything was going on in Missouri where, you know, LDS people were being targeted and they were being forced out and all this killed. Killed, yeah. So if someone, there was an exterminating order, if someone came and said, all Missouri lives matter. When you're like, hey, we're being persecuted specifically, would that have been helpful?

John Dehlin [03:42:18] Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [03:42:19] No.

John Dehlin [03:42:19] Right.

Rachel Weaver [03:42:20] It minimizes what's, what's happening to you and your group specifically, of course, God and Christ. If you're a Christian, Right. You love everyone and we support everyone, right? Yes. However, when a specific group of people are being persecuted, we need to acknowledge that, because that's what Christ did. If you're going spiritual, let's go to the doctrine, let's go to the gospel of Christ. Let's look at Christ's life. He found people who had specific issues and he sought them out. He looked for people who were the sinners and he went and helped them. He wasn't trying to hide the issues that people had. He wanted. He embraced them. He talked about them, with them, them. And so to me, if you're really a follower of Christ, that's what you would have done. You're not trying to say, oh, we just love everyone. Because that's. Christ loved people specifically. He loved them in a specific way. And that is what, you know, Christian people, LDS people, if that's your framework, that's what you should want to do too. And I think it's hard because so many LDS people just live around very homogenous groups of individuals that they have never had to really understand what it's like to love someone that's really different than them. The people that have been the most compassionate, most understanding are people who normally are LGBTQ in the church or have children who are LGBTQ or have somehow felt marginalized in some way by the church. Because when you grow up privileged, like a lot of white upper middle class people do in the church, you don't have to think about those things. You don't have to see why you should care about people that are different than you and helps you understand why something like a black lives matter matter is important and why I have to not just say all lives matter because that's understood. That's humanity. I hope all lives matter. However, black people are being affected in a disproportionate way when it comes to police brutality specifically. Right. And so we have to acknowledge that they do matter because right now they are not being valued. And no matter what, however much love, that's why the gospel trying to fix racism never works and why the church irritates me when they always try to use some love one another bullshit. That is not how you can fix white supremacy or racial issues with a whole institution, with the church and the whole country. Love is not enough for that. You have to have actual, tangible, sustainable plan of action to work on racial issues. And the church again promotes that. So that's also the problem is that LDS people are like, well, the church says these things. It says love everyone, but it's like that's not enough. Love is not going to eradicate years, hundreds of years of racism that impact you as a white person in America and impact you in a church that taught racial things, inappropriate things for years. There are people still alive in this church that were taught those things.

John Dehlin [03:44:59] Yeah. And going back to this idea that the average Mormon raised in Utah or Idaho probably graduates from high school having never really spoken to any black person. And then certainly if they have spoken to a black person, it's a black person raised in Utah, which, but like a black person raised Detroit. Detroit.

Rachel Weaver [03:45:23] We need another episode for that, for that one.

John Dehlin [03:45:24] Yeah. Like a black person raised in Chicago or Detroit or Mississippi or Texas, Alabama. That's a very different experience. And so that's what's also so frustrating is they don't know what it's like like to be pulled over, driving while black. Right. Just because a police person might be racially profiling them or suspicious and pulling them over or following them through a clothing store or, or you know, the worst is, is, is the police brutality and violence. How would a white Utah Idahoan or a white Utah Mormon or a white Idahoan Mormon have any sense of what that's like? So in their minds they're just like blue lives matter. Policemen are people too. And we love them and we gotta love policemen and we gotta love white people, we gotta love black, we gotta love everybody. But they don't even have the cultural experience to even begin to understand, you know. And then how do they get educated?

Rachel Weaver [03:46:23] Yeah, well, and that's part of the reason why black people are so tired in the church is because we're constantly having to experience this. And for me, growing up around white people who are aware of this, there are white people not like this. So what is you. You know what I mean? Like respectfully, it is this subset of people that are ignorant and sometimes continue to be ignorant and continue to choose to live in comfort, continue to live amongst people that are just like them, where they don't have to experience uncomfortability of being the only white person in the room. My sister in law, she is married to my brother, she's white, she talked about the first time being in Chicago, on the south side at a Walmart and being the only white person in the grocery store, that was a very shocking experience for her. Yes. Welcome to every day of black people in America who don't live around their own. Like large groups of black people, you know, and white people like to. They don't want to be uncomfortable, which is true. Nobody wants to be uncomfortable. It's hard. But a lot of people in the church find they like to stay in Utah. They like to stay in these areas. They don't want to move away, which is fine. But.

John Dehlin [03:47:28] But even if they do move away, they can still stay in a cluster.

Rachel Weaver [03:47:32] Yes, they do.

John Dehlin [03:47:32] Social cluster of white boys.

Rachel Weaver [03:47:34] Even if they're in. Like they do in Chicago.

John Dehlin [03:47:35] Houston. Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [03:47:37] And for me, that's when I was like, I have the choice too then as a black person to say, I don't wanna deal with this anymore. I don't want to constantly force myself to be around people who don't care about me or don't value me. Cause that's how I felt at the end of 2020. Like going to church is a stressful event. I don't know who is for me or who is against me. I don't know who is someone who is a bigot, who is giving a talk right now. You know what I mean? I don't know who is. That's how it felt at the end of 2020. It's like, who is someone that actually supports me and what's happening to my community? Does the church. No, we'll get to that in a second. That's my thought about the thing I was going to say about byu, but it's like, I don't know that. And I don't like that feeling. I don't like. And so I started to feel on edge of knowing who's for me and who's against me. And that's not church. You didn't feel like that. This is a place that used to bring me so much peace, something that used to bring me so much comfort. Now I have anxiety.

John Dehlin [03:48:38] Yeah. Because it sounds like South Chicago Mormonism was progressive, maybe even liberal Mormonism, but maybe even politically. Definitely more liberal, more left of center politically than Utah Mormonism, 100%. But if Utah Mormonism and Idaho Mormonism is more right wing, conservative, political, yes, socially, and those potentially are going to be the communities that are least validating and least supportive of the types of concerns that affect your life every day, then you're not going to feel safe. Right. You're going to feel surrounded by people that don't seem to care about your lived experience and how.

Rachel Weaver [03:49:24] How I walk through the world.

John Dehlin [03:49:26] Yeah, how you walk through the world.

Rachel Weaver [03:49:26] Because to me, if you value me being in your church, you should care about what's going on in my everyday. You should care about what's. What am I experiencing? What are my community? What, what are our pain points? The church gives a lot of money to a lot of things. You're not donating to issues dealing with police brutality. That's dealing with black people. You want black people in your church, you should figure that out. You know, and so for me, that's kind of my thoughts and kind of going back to what I was saying, this is going to connect. BYU had made their race committee. I don't know if you know about this. And they made. They were making this racial report that I think got released at the end of 2020. Right.

Nate Byrd [03:50:02] Spring 2021.

Rachel Weaver [03:50:03] Oh, 2021. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [03:50:05] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [03:50:05] So they made this race committee. Right.

John Dehlin [03:50:07] This is why you're a sophomore.

Rachel Weaver [03:50:09] Yeah. So this is going to my junior year or whatever in fall of 2021.

John Dehlin [03:50:13] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [03:50:14] So what was frustrating about that whole situation is, I think again, by the time the race report had come out, to me, it felt like, what was it for? So BYU made a race committee during the height of 2020. Like everybody and their mom, they had to do something to respond to George Floyd. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:50:30] Okay.

Nate Byrd [03:50:31] Actually, what I've heard about that is that they had already. So I think it was an independent team that assembled. I could be wrong, really, but yeah, I think it was Dr. Rue that told me. I think it was an independent team that kind of assembled and they were doing this research already. And then when George Floyd happened.

Rachel Weaver [03:50:46] That's probably true.

Nate Byrd [03:50:47] Then that's when they scrambled and were like, oh, what can we. Oh, we already have this information. Let's just, you know, let's just.

Rachel Weaver [03:50:52] Yeah, because they put like all brown people on it. And then like Shane Reese, who now the president of byu, he was like some high up other person with student affairs. I have no clue the title, but he was doing something and he was like the head of it. And I think what was frustrating about that is byu, every year that I had been there was always like, what's wrong, black people? Why do you guys have problems? And we have talked to them so much. We have communicated our needs lots of times. I was not the.

John Dehlin [03:51:20] Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [03:51:20] Nate talked about this in his interview. Like, I am not the first black. Black person who's had an issue and who has communicated that I'm not. And I know that. And so BYU is just. Black people are constantly having hard experiences and communicating that. And anytime we suggest things, it's a no, always a no. From the top up. And just like the. Going into my sophomore year, like when this committee report came out and like, BYU has not done any recommendations to me or just hearing. I interned with Verne Hebri, who is over student success and inclusion at. At byu, working with him and hearing his experience in President's Council and how he literally would tell me, yeah, they don't understand why inclusion or diversity is important. Or just hearing, like them not wanting to put diversity in the title of the Office of Belonging because it would be divisive. Just again, all these experiences where it's like, from the top down, BYU is not changing. There are lots of. Oh, sorry, we're going to say.

John Dehlin [03:52:21] I don't want to interrupt you. I asked Nate the same thing, but what would have been 5 or 10 of your requests of BYU to make it better for you just so we could talk about the committee? What would be some changes you would have loved to have seen that would have been helpful for you?

Rachel Weaver [03:52:36] I think specifically a scholarship for black students would be very helpful. That was one thing. I think also working on getting more black faculty and staff on campus is also extremely important. And also to me, black enrollment is always low. It has continued to be low Latino populations, and I say this because I studied this in sociology. Latino populations at BYU have increased over the last 10 years. They're now almost at like 4,000, 5,000 students. That is a good amount. Still low compared to the whole school, but better than black people. We are barely in the hundreds. And so to me, that's not just a BYU. Yeah. Out of 35,000.

John Dehlin [03:53:13] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [03:53:14] There's 35,000 students and around 4,000. 5,000 Latino students. Students, good amount, but still not. That's not a lot.

John Dehlin [03:53:19] More than 10% Latino, less than 1% black. Is that what you're saying? Is that right? Yeah. And that has. You're saying over the past 30 years that hasn't gone up?

Rachel Weaver [03:53:30] No. That black enrollment over the past 10 years. I don't know about 30, but I'm talking about last 10 years. That's the research that me and Dr. Rue were looking at. It have not gone up. And to me, why. And also, again, this is also connected to me because people are always like, well, how do we address black people applying to byu? And of course, like, BYU is A church school to address black people applying to byu, you need to look at the church. That just makes sense to me. That's A plus B to me. You can't try to all of a sudden recruit black people that don't know nothing about the church when all the people that attended school are 98% LDS. So then that takes me to why has the church not cared that black activity rate is never increased? It's increased for Africans in the continent of Africa because they're around people like them in their culture. But in the United States, we are not concerned. And to me, as a black member, to me, the leadership should be concerned. I want to be an organization to institutions that are paying attention to what's happening to me and my people. The church is not doing anything for that. They got their little bogus relationship with the naacp, which I can speak more on later. That isn't doing anything because, yeah, you're donating money, but what are you doing to repair relationships in the black community that would increase black activity and black conversion? That's ultimately how we would get more black people at byu. Right.

John Dehlin [03:54:48] And that's how black students at BYU would feel more comfortable to have more people like them.

Rachel Weaver [03:54:52] Exactly.

Nate Byrd [03:54:53] There.

Rachel Weaver [03:54:53] Exactly. So that's why I say, like, we need to increase black enrollment, but to increase black enrollment, we need to address church issues. That's what I'm always saying. We can't not. People always want to separate the two. And that would always piss me off at BYU because I'm like, the black issue. Black issues specifically at BYU are always connected to the church. They're always interconnected. You can't just be like, oh, this is just a BYU issue. No. Issues with black people at BYU always are connected to the church because of its history.

John Dehlin [03:55:20] And that then immediately pulls the idea of an apology. The church apologizing for its racist past. Right.

Rachel Weaver [03:55:27] Yes. Which would be my recommendation to help with black enrollment, which is.

John Dehlin [03:55:31] Is that the recommendation? I don't know.

Rachel Weaver [03:55:33] That's the recommendation. I think that's one of. Because being able to. For a church that, you know, preaches repentance and preaches restitution, they sure did jump to the restitution without any, you know, acknowledgement. Part of repentance is, you know, acknowledging the wrong that was done. There has been no acknowledgement. They're going straight to giving money to the naacp, which does nothing for black

Nate Byrd [03:55:55] members of the church.

Rachel Weaver [03:55:56] Right.

John Dehlin [03:55:57] It's also viewed as a photo op,

Rachel Weaver [03:55:58] even by people like me. And also, the NAACP has critiqued the Church. The church will never print that, though.

Nate Byrd [03:56:04] The special counsel to the president of the NAACP said in an article that the church has said a lot and made a lot of promises, but hasn't actually done anything. They said that. I believe one year into their relationship with the NAACP hadn't done anything, just made a lot of promises. And I guess they've donated money. That's how President Nelson was able to get that Gandhi.

Rachel Weaver [03:56:25] Oh, my gosh. That sent me to a new level. I was like, be so for real. Anyway. But, yeah, so that's one of my recommendations as well.

John Dehlin [03:56:36] And I think it's at the root. The root is the church.

Rachel Weaver [03:56:40] Yeah. Because, like, we need to. Because it's centered around, like, getting more black people there, caring for them once they're there, and then caring for the specific needs of the black population, knowing, like, black people don't graduate at the same rate as their white counterparts. That's an issue in universities as a whole. That's equity. Right. That's being an equitable university. That's addressing racial inequities, no matter what school you are. Other schools have scholarships for black students specifically. They do. And I think doing something like that at BYU would be an example of them showing, like, we recognize this is a disparity with this community, and we are addressing that in this way because we got to get more people there. We got to take care of them once they come, and you need to be equitable in your action. So those are things that I would recommend for byu.

John Dehlin [03:57:26] So historically, the church didn't have sort of allocated scholarships for black members, as far as you're aware?

Rachel Weaver [03:57:33] Nope. Ooh, that'd be news to me, because I've never heard of that, and I've heard a lot of stuff. We have the MSS office with the SOAR program, but you aren't eligible for a scholarship through the MSS office if you didn't go to soar. Which is why I have an issue with the. The SOAR program and the MSS office, because, like I said earlier, there's a disproportionate. Like, all the black students that come to byu, most of them don't come through soar, but almost all Polynesian students do, or even Latino students. Like, they know about SOAR, and again, they can only accept around 3, 400 people every summer, which is fine. But why are so many Polynesian students benefiting from this? And black students are not. You're not going to black. To areas where there are black. Black people and letting them know we have the SOAR program. You can apply. If this is the only way that black students can get scholarships, I mean, obviously academically as well, because I mean, I got academic scholarships from like my major and stuff. But I'm just saying, like this is a way to like get a black scholarship. It doesn't. It's not accessible to black people. Most people are not even aware of the program. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:58:34] And Nate, I remember you talking about just trying to get some space for the black students Student union.

Rachel Weaver [03:58:38] Right?

Nate Byrd [03:58:38] Yeah. Just a room. Just a room. And being told together most universities have some kind of cultural center. BYU does not. And they, they turned it down point blank.

John Dehlin [03:58:48] Yeah.

Nate Byrd [03:58:49] Said there was no room anywhere on campus. I said there's no. You don't have just a single room that we can use throughout the week? No, we don't have any space. And that was without checking. That was an immediate just knee jerk answer from the vice president of student life.

Rachel Weaver [03:59:02] And yeah.

John Dehlin [03:59:03] So Rachel, you were just saying. So they put a committee together.

Rachel Weaver [03:59:06] Yeah. So like this on top of like all these experiences where we're getting no's where it's not happening, or all these experiences that I've had over my time at BYU, including like Dr. Rue created a whole new curriculum with other professors of how they could incorporate requiring a race class for every single BYU student, which I think would be great considering the ignorance of so many of students in the population. And no, we're just getting no's nose. No's nose. No's. Now who is running byu? Oh, people in the church. The board of trustees is the 12. So who is saying no here? I'm wondering who's saying no. And then after the Brad Wilcox whole situation, which we'll get into later, it's just like it's coming no from the top down. So you're letting me know that this institution is saying no to anything that will help me and my people feel more comfortable and more safe. What am I supposed to think as a black member? What did that say to me? If you're going to say no here at byu, you're definitely going to. It's going to be a hell no and a not going to happen in the church for anything else that I want to see happen. So this whole working from the inside out, it is like individual efforts? Yes. There are a ton of people around the church, even at byu, that are doing individual efforts that are making a difference. However. However, studying sociology has made me hold institutions to an extremely high standard because institutions have the ability to impact people and their lives in good and bad ways. And to me, the church, I'm holding them to a higher standard when it comes to how they're interacting with black people. And up to this point, they have shown me that they don't care. They've shown me that they don't give a crap and that they're not going to do anything to change, and that's fine. So I'm going to make my choice to remove myself because I don't want to be a part of institutions that don't care about me. And I've said, like, if I didn't go to byu, I think I'd still be more active. I think I'd still believe. But these experiences, on top of everything I shared. Right. On top of these experiences at a university where I'm trying to advocate. Right. I'm trying to work with Nate. We've been working on lots of different things and just trying and feeling like BYU does not care about our efforts to make black students feel more comfortable. They're. They're working against it.

Forming the Black Menaces at BYU

John Dehlin [04:01:17] So talk about. So you've talked about your sophomore year and maybe the beginning of your junior year. Talk about the. The formation of what became Black Menaces.

Rachel Weaver [04:01:27] Okay. Formation of Black Menaces. So I do have to say, by the time I made Black Menaces, I'm already mentally checked out of the church.

John Dehlin [04:01:34] So is there. Is there stuff you want to say about your story before then?

Rachel Weaver [04:01:36] So, yeah, I mean, like, we can. It's just whatever order you want me to go crossing. Because then again, all these thoughts and feelings have come. And then I started dating that individual, which, again, this is what propelled me into not really messing with the church or believing things. And I really have been mentally checked out since, like, fall of 21.

John Dehlin [04:01:54] So you dated a black BYU student, and this was your sophomore or junior year.

Rachel Weaver [04:01:59] So I don't really know titles. Just because, like, that's fine. Yeah. It's like fall of 21 is when we started, like, hanging out, and then we officially got into a relationship of. Yeah, January 2021. Yeah, no, sorry, 2020. We started dating January 2021.

John Dehlin [04:02:14] And by the time you come off your mission and give it a good try and you realize they don't want to change, you're starting to feel really disillusioned.

Rachel Weaver [04:02:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:02:23] But this is also the first time you'd ever really had a romantic relationship.

Rachel Weaver [04:02:27] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [04:02:27] And it was the black man, not a white Mormon, right?

Rachel Weaver [04:02:30] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [04:02:31] So what was that? What do you want to say about that?

Rachel Weaver [04:02:33] I mean, really, the main reason I bring up the relationship is because in that relationship, again, it was also. I just hit a year, November of 2020, being home from my mission. So there was a lot of progress that I was making just as an individual. And also, this person was very much like, removing themselves from the church as well. They were a little further along than I was. And I would always talk with them about my feelings because, again, I told you, I was always talking about this kind of stuff. And so I was always talking about it with him. Him. And he basically helped me come to the conclusion of, like, God. Like, there's no way that there's one way to return to live with God because there's too much diversity. There's too much variability in the lives of people. And, you know, at that time, it's like, well, God created different religions because he created different types of people and different circumstances, and there's no way that this is the only way, pretty much. And that's kind of the conclusion that I had come to. And it was the first time I felt like, it doesn't have to be that the church is true. And, like, I think being with a partner, excuse me, like, being in a relationship because, like, doing it by yourself is scary, or feeling like I can really walk away or not believe this by yourself is scary. Like, you feel like you'd have no support, but feeling like I'm in a relationship with someone that, like, is supporting me doing this. And, like, I'll have somebody by my side, even if everyone else around me is like, what the hell are you doing? I'll have somebody there with me. And so summer 21, I stopped wearing my garments. That's when I had my first drink. And so, again, still a BYU student. So I was just like, you know, once I really decided that I didn't need for this to be true. It could be true if I want, like, I felt like if I wanted it to be true and I wanted to stay, there are reasons why I could do that or feel that way, because I understand it. Like, I had gone back and forth for so long, and if that's what I felt brought me the most peace, then I could do that. But if I was having so much stress, so many problems, so much cognitive dissonance existing in this space, then maybe I don't need to do it. And so that's what I started leaning into. It's like, maybe it's not. And distancing myself and. And, yeah. And, I mean, my family saw me for the first time without my garments consistently. And there was a lot of problems. They knew that I was drinking. It was just, like, a lot of adjustments. My family's very chill now, but if they're listening, y' all know how you were. Summer of 21. So they're a lot better now. But yeah.

John Dehlin [04:05:06] Yeah. And for our never Mormons who watch, in their minds, they're like, okay, you're a college student. Okay, you lose your faith in your church, but you just keep going to classes and you. You graduate from college. BYU is different.

Rachel Weaver [04:05:18] Right. So BYU has the honor code, which, like, you have to follow, which is like, basically the commandments of the church that you agree to, which is a lot of, like, you don't drink, you don't smoke, you're not having sex. Like, a lot of these, like, yeah. Commandments that the church has, you are also agreeing to, even if you're not a member. And also you, like, get ecclesiastic endorsements where you're basically letting them know that you, like, still are going to church and, like, believing the church. Because if you're not attending your war and you go for your interview with your bishop, they could say, like, oh, you haven't been coming. I'm not giving it to you.

John Dehlin [04:05:49] And then you get kicked out of school.

Rachel Weaver [04:05:51] Yeah. And then you can't attend. So that's also all going on at the same time where I'm kind of like, ah, I don't really mess with this anymore. And, I mean, I just lie like everybody else. There's a lot of people who lie because as I started to move away and let people know how I was feeling and what I was doing, people start to open up to me. There are a lot of people at BYU who do not believe in the church, who are just there to get their degree. And a lot of people who are breaking the honor code on a daily basis,

John Dehlin [04:06:23] like an orthodox Mormon is going to say, wait, number one, you sign the honor code, if you no longer believe or are willing to obey it, it's your ethical duty to leave. But you should want to leave. Why don't you just leave? You sign the honor code, Be a person of integrity. Just leave. Why isn't it. That's not.

Rachel Weaver [04:06:41] I was going into my final year of school, so why would I leave my university? And also at this point.

John Dehlin [04:06:47] But they say, cause you signed an agreement.

Rachel Weaver [04:06:49] Yeah, I wouldn't leave because credits don't transfer very well from BYU because we do so many religious classes that I'd have to, you know, kind of change A lot of things and from what I've heard from other people is that BYU credits don't really transfer well in terms of just credibility of a lot of the. Their programs. I don't know what that has. I have no idea what that means.

John Dehlin [04:07:10] You lose one to two years typically if you transfer.

Nate Byrd [04:07:13] Because a lot of the things that they teach at BYU are not really like up to standard with like sfl.

Rachel Weaver [04:07:18] I took like a, a healthy sexuality class. That class was crazy.

Nate Byrd [04:07:21] American Heritage. That hasn't been updated.

Rachel Weaver [04:07:22] Oh my gosh. It's like healthy sexuality. That is not what would be taught at a normal university. Any. That's. That's when I got the crazy question about would you rather your. This is really side note. Would you rather your. Your partner have a porn addiction or have had sex before you got married?

Nate Byrd [04:07:37] What.

Rachel Weaver [04:07:37] Anyway, just BYU things. But so you.

John Dehlin [04:07:41] It's. It's incredible loss of time and money.

Rachel Weaver [04:07:45] Yes. To leave BYU and start over somewhere else.

John Dehlin [04:07:48] And again if I'm going to push this point a little bit more. But somebody said, but you knew that when you signed the honor code. So like that's what integrity is. It's when you do the hard thing because you said you would.

Rachel Weaver [04:07:58] And I actually got into an argument with somebody about this one time and I think the hard thing is I wasn't like to me saying like oh I, I don't believe I'm going to leave. I. It wasn't actually that clear. It took me a while to be 100% like, oh, I'm not like at that point I'm like I'm just going to stop going. I don't know if I'll go back. Does that make sense? Like I know I'm like, I'm kind of done right now. I may go back one day. And to me that's like very understanding of what the human experience is being a person very rarely. I mean to me I'm not a. Like there are only certain things I'm 100% on and I wasn't 100%. So to me that was basically like me removing my records to be. To either tell byu, put me as a non member status or to leave. Like I didn't 100% feel that way. There's still, even now there are some things that I still believe in the church that I do believe and like hold close to me. And that's just being a person and understanding nuance of growing up in religion and different things. And that's okay. So. So I feel like that's A very. I don't know what word to use, but that's a very strange assumption to assume that someone's gonna 100% feel some way in a certain amount of months and is gonna make a decision for their entire life based off of that. And I think that that's a part of the reason why I have issues with the honor code and the whole like, going to church thing, because it doesn't allow for growth. It's either like, you have to believe it or you're 100% out and there's nobody in this world that's 100% either way. I mean, like, there are some people that 100% believe it or 100% don't, but there's so much gray for people because we have nuances and we have differences and that's part of being a person. And to expect someone to 100% be one way or the other is unrealistic and doesn't allow someone to grow or doesn't allow someone to change, which is part of growing up.

John Dehlin [04:09:39] Yeah. When you sign that honor code at 18 or 19, you're gung ho and optimistic and faithful and you have no idea that it would even be possible for someday you to learn the things that you had never been taught and to feel the ways that you're going to feel. But then once you're in your junior senior year, it's not just the financial cost, the time, it's the embarrassment with your family, your community.

Rachel Weaver [04:10:06] Why would I? That's just doing.

John Dehlin [04:10:08] No, it's catastrophic. It feels catastrophic.

Nate Byrd [04:10:11] I think it's highly unethical too, to make someone sign an honor code and put their college education at stake. People always say, oh, you signed the honor code. You knew what you were signing up for. No, you didn't. Not at 18. I was 17. When I went to BYU, I was 17 years old. It's just as unethical as making an 8 year old child get baptized and saying that, oh, it was their choice. When you're eight years old, that's the age that we believe that, you know, you're able to distinguish right from wrong. But if you're growing up and you go to primary and you're told every single week that getting baptized is the best thing and that your whole life you're preparing to get baptized. You know, everything that you've done from the time you were born until now is preparing you to get baptized. You got to do all this and all your friends are excited about it. And then, you know, you get to the interview, and you go in with your bishop and you feel all important. They say, well, do you want to get baptized? Of course you're going to say yes, because that's the only thing you've known. And, you know, same thing with byu. When we're told how wonderful of a place BYU is, how great it is, and how when you get there, it's going to be people who are just like you, who think the same way that you do and believe the same way. And all you have to do in order to do that is agree to live the life that you've been living. It's like, okay, well, yeah, I'll sign that. But also, you haven't experienced anything. You haven't learned, you haven't developed, you haven't grown as a person. And so basically what they're asking you to do is to stunt your growth. Growth. And to remain the same as you are when you sign the honor code until the time you graduate. And that just isn't realistic for most people. Yeah, some people are able to manage that. If you grew up in Utah and you. You never challenge any belief that you have, then you might be able to, from 18 to 24 or 22 or whatever age it is, you might be able to remain the exact same person. But those are major formative years where your brain is completing its development, your emotions, your hormones, like, everything about. About you is changing and morphing. And so for them to bind you to something like that and say, unless you do this, you can't get your college education is very unethical.

John Dehlin [04:12:02] Yeah. And you're saying, Rachel, that you know a lot of BYU students that were just lying.

Rachel Weaver [04:12:08] Oh, yeah. I mean, I was a little too vocal, probably, but. Sorry, I'm just laughing because of who I am as a person outside of my serious conversations. But Nate's laughing, too, because he knows who I am. And so, yeah, I mean, people just really felt comfortable starting to tell me things. And I learned a lot about a lot of people. And, yeah, a lot of people are just living their best life and getting their degree at BYU way more than you would think.

Nate Byrd [04:12:36] I mean, most. I would say majority of BYU students,

Rachel Weaver [04:12:38] like, a good 60%. Yeah, I'd say I know so many people who. I just found out way too much stuff about people having sex. Like, yeah. Getting married in the temple, though, the next day, like, Yep. Yeah, I've heard it all at this point because of just me kind of being like, this is not really for me anymore. And people kind of just start opening up to you.

John Dehlin [04:13:02] So this. This relationship with this young man changed you in a really significant way. But you decided you wanted to stick around and finish at byu.

Rachel Weaver [04:13:12] Oh, yeah. Like, I was in my last year, so I wasn't gonna. I was just like, yeah, let me just stay and finish this out. And something I will say that I've reflected on too, is I think it definitely, like, being with him empowered me. And I also think that I was also growing as a person during that time in my life. Like, I was. We started dating when I was 21, turned 22, and, yeah, we dated for nine, 10 months. So I was going on 23. So I was also just, like, developing as a person and developing who I was, and this person happened to be there and, like, encourage that. But I also think that so much happens in your young twenties that every year feels like a new life, and you're learning what you're okay with, what you're not okay with, what's important to you, what's not important to you. And being like, he was there for a time that I think was needed, like, definitely wasn't my forever person and doesn't need to be who I was with. But I think I learned a lot. Like, we learned a lot from each other and that way, and I'm grateful for that. And that's. That's part of being a young adult, I feel like, is growing up learning and. And growing and moving forward. And so I'm grateful that I got to experience that and that I learned this lesson at this age rather than a lot later. And maybe I would have got married to a super LDS guy and. And came to this conclusion at 35. And, you know, not that being in a mixed faith marriage is wrong or anything, but, like, that would have been, you know what I mean? Like, oh, we were super faithful, and now we're not. And that's a different challenge. Right. And now I'm who I am, unapologetically, and can go into new situations with, like, a more confirmed idea of, like, who I am and what I want, which could change. But I'm definitely, like, confident right now in where I'm at.

John Dehlin [04:14:51] Yeah. So much of the regret that I hear from ex Mormons is that in those college years, they weren't able to just have normal, developmentally appropriate college experiences. So I'm so happy you were able to have a taste of that while you were at byu. I'll also just really quickly call out a couple super chats we just received because we're always so grateful. So Catherine class writes, I wish white LDS members would watch this and absorb the further light knowledge that is being taught here, here, and let it change their understanding of how our systems work. Thank you, Katherine, for that support. And then also Swanee Speed Ramsey writes, thanks, Rachel and Nate. And I think our viewers and listeners are very grateful for everything we've heard so far. So go from that dating experience to whatever you want to tell that leads

Rachel Weaver [04:15:46] to relationship ends around November. Yeah, November of 2021. Yep. And so then Black Menaces start then in February of 22. So, you know, I mean, if you're not familiar with how that started is before that. Go ahead. You know my life story.

Nate Byrd [04:16:05] No, no, I was gonna say, do you wanna just talk about, like, how we got close in the first place? Like, before Black Menaces even started? Like, just sitting at the black table?

John Dehlin [04:16:12] Oh, yeah.

Rachel Weaver [04:16:12] That's what I was like. I was like, how did we. I was struggling there a little bit. I'm just saying so much. Okay. Yes. So. So you wanna go, Nate? No, you fit. You seem to have it together more. Let me take a drink.

Nate Byrd [04:16:20] Oh, no.

Rachel Weaver [04:16:21] Okay.

Nate Byrd [04:16:21] Yeah. So basically just, I think November or maybe September was around the time that we actually met for the first time. Cause we had heard about each other for forever.

Rachel Weaver [04:16:30] This is so true.

Nate Byrd [04:16:31] We missed each other.

Rachel Weaver [04:16:31] Yes.

Nate Byrd [04:16:32] I was on my mission. Or you were on your mission, and then I was on my mission. And we always heard about each other.

Rachel Weaver [04:16:37] Yes. Nate was on his mission my freshman year. Then he got back, so I was gone. Then he got married and moved to Arizona. Yeah.

Nate Byrd [04:16:43] And then. Yeah, then I came back. But anyway, so we actually. We had heard about each other for years. And I knew Ron, my brother, but that was the first time we met. But then what we would do at byu because we didn't have a space to congregate or to gather, we just kind of designated a table in the Wilkinson Student Center. And we would all sit together as black students. And we would just kind of hang out in between classes or on days that we didn't have classes. We would just sit there and we would talk about different things. We would talk about the church. We would talk about our classes. We would talk about just our experiences growing up. You know, all those kinds of things. And we got to form a pretty close bond. And some of the people that were most frequently at the table were me, Rachel, Sebastian, Kylie and Kennethia. You know, we hung out at that table quite a bit amongst many, many other black students. And sometimes we'd come on campus just to Sit at that table, you know, for the day. Because it was just a way to connect outside of the Black Student Union.

John Dehlin [04:17:32] What did you think of Rachel when you met her?

Nate Byrd [04:17:34] Oh, instant friends. Like, we. We got together. We got along together really well.

Rachel Weaver [04:17:39] This girl is crazy.

Nate Byrd [04:17:40] Yeah, it was like, I feel like I've known you so loud multiple years, but we had just barely met. But no. Yeah, I was already really good friends with her brother. And so, yeah, it was just a natural progression. We were very good friends from the start. Same with, you know, Sebastian and Kenneth and Kylie. Like, we all just kind of got along together really well.

Rachel Weaver [04:17:56] Yeah. And, yeah, so the black table was always existing. That's what we call it.

Nate Byrd [04:18:00] That's what we call it.

The Brad Wilcox Controversy and Going Viral

Rachel Weaver [04:18:02] And so the Brad Wilcox situation happens, which, those of you who are listening who are not familiar, basically beginning Of February of 2022, he was speaking to a multi, like, youth stake type of conference or Fireside. And he was speaking about, like, I guess, faith or whatever the heck he was talking about. And he brings up, you know, I guess, things that people throw at young people now in the church or like, these are challenges. And I guess he was trying to arm them with things to say back or. Or answers to their questions. And he was talking about. And y' all are laughing because that's how he was talking, the whole talking language because it was more than just black people. He offended women as well. But he started talking about, like, he was like. Well, he said something along the lines of, like, people talk about blacks in the priesthood and why black people couldn't get the priesthood until 1978. And he brought up the idea of, like, well, white people couldn't get the priesthood until the restoration came in 1820. Be so for real. So just very problematic thinking and like, equating, if you believe in the church, like the restoration of the gospel to racism and exclusionary policy. So very offensive, very problematic. So that happens. And a ton of people are outraged on social media. We were all pissed. And granted, Brad Wilcox not only was at that time, he was in the presidency for the Young Men's. Oh, he still is. Presidency of the Young men.

John Dehlin [04:19:20] So, Rachel, there's a reason why I'm smiling. Maybe I'm going to show this on the screen so people won't see you, but I'm going to have you come around here and look at what I'm showing.

Rachel Weaver [04:19:30] Let me see. Oh, man.

John Dehlin [04:19:31] So I'm showing the. The Metrics of Mormon Stories podcast for the whole life of the podcast. And Nate, you can come look too. And it may be a little bit hard to see, but it's like this flat line, flat line, flat line, flatline line. And then this huge, massive spike of. Of a line. You know what that was? That was. That was Brad Wilcox.

Rachel Weaver [04:19:52] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [04:19:54] Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [04:19:55] What is this? I'm so dead.

John Dehlin [04:19:56] No, no, no, it's. Yeah. And so, you know, so basically you don't know the history. Go ahead and have back a seat. But the history was a friend of mine who lived in Alpine reached out to me and said, I just attended this crazy fireside and you won't believe what this dude. You don't believe what this dude said. So I had it ready. And like on the Monday after it happened.

Rachel Weaver [04:20:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:20:19] Mormon stories broke. The news of the Brad Wilcoxe.

Rachel Weaver [04:20:22] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:20:22] And it's. It's the single largest day. I mean, there have been a couple others since then.

Rachel Weaver [04:20:27] Yeah. But.

John Dehlin [04:20:27] But up until that point, it was. It was like by an infinite order of three orders of magnitude, the largest day of Mormon stories ever. And Car Burrell was working for us at the time, so we did two or three episodes, just laser beaming, putting Brad Wilcox on blast.

Rachel Weaver [04:20:43] Exactly.

John Dehlin [04:20:43] So that's why. That's why I was smiling. Not to put a spotlight on us, but we kind of broke that news.

Rachel Weaver [04:20:48] Right? I love that.

Nate Byrd [04:20:49] Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [04:20:49] I love the connection. Well, and even like Brad Wilcox also, I don't know if you guys covered this in yours, because I don't know if I like, looked was looked like saw who said it. But he also had said other problematic things before this. This wasn't the first time time he said these exact same comments, but it

Nate Byrd [04:21:06] just wasn't other occasions that were recorded.

Rachel Weaver [04:21:08] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. See, I knew there were other times. So this whole situation, the couple of

John Dehlin [04:21:13] the worst things he said just to

Nate Byrd [04:21:14] let people know, he said that everyone else in the world is playing church.

Rachel Weaver [04:21:19] Oh, yeah. That's what he said.

Nate Byrd [04:21:20] Only Mormons have the truth. So everybody else is playing church. And he compared it to his children watching his children play house and pretend to be mommy and daddy. And he's like, oh, they. That's what the rest of the world is doing.

Rachel Weaver [04:21:30] And he also said, like, where will you go? Like, very fearful, like, if you ever leave the church, what are you gonna do? Where are you gonna go? Like, this whole, like, very giving old school, like, letter of the law vibes. Like, what?

John Dehlin [04:21:42] But it was what he said about the priesthood band that was the most shocking.

Rachel Weaver [04:21:46] Yes. About again, equating that to the restoration of the gospel, which are like Again, the whole time that the gospel wasn't on the earth, so, like, everyone else was in their own priesthood band ban, basically. That's what he was insinuating.

John Dehlin [04:21:58] Didn't he say that? The question isn't why didn't black.

Rachel Weaver [04:22:05] He said it's not. It shouldn't be. Like, why?

John Dehlin [04:22:08] The question we should be asking isn't.

Rachel Weaver [04:22:10] First of all, he said it should be why didn't the blacks have the priesthood? It should be why didn't the whites? Is that what he said?

John Dehlin [04:22:17] So tell me if I got it right. Yeah, the. The question we should be asking is it why didn't black people receive the priesthood until 1978? The question we should be asking is why didn't white people receive the priesthood until 1830?

Rachel Weaver [04:22:32] And I'm pretty sure he said blacks. He did not say black people.

Nate Byrd [04:22:35] He was making it very.

Rachel Weaver [04:22:36] Oh, you're nice.

John Dehlin [04:22:37] Oh, that's good of you.

Rachel Weaver [04:22:38] That's good of you. I'm like, no, he said blacks. Yeah, that's good.

John Dehlin [04:22:41] Did I get it right, Nate, or would you say.

Nate Byrd [04:22:43] Yeah, that was it. I mean, the way he said it was obviously much more abrasive.

Rachel Weaver [04:22:47] Yes. And wild. Come on. What's up with that?

Nate Byrd [04:22:49] Brother will come.

John Dehlin [04:22:50] I don't know.

Nate Byrd [04:22:50] What is it?

Rachel Weaver [04:22:51] Oh, my gosh. It was the voices he was using, but yes. So this happens. And Ralph Wilcox is also a professor of religion at byu. So this is a professor and a

John Dehlin [04:23:00] super popular EFY speaker, right?

Rachel Weaver [04:23:01] Yes, he is.

Nate Byrd [04:23:01] He's not a good professor at byu.

Rachel Weaver [04:23:03] He's not. People don't like him as a teacher.

Nate Byrd [04:23:05] He's not a good teacher.

John Dehlin [04:23:06] No.

Nate Byrd [04:23:06] From what I've heard.

Rachel Weaver [04:23:07] No. Yeah, he's very. It's very Brad Wilcox doctrine, not doctrine of the Church. And so anyway, he makes these comments, and we, you know, as we black students were outraged and were hurt, and we're hoping that the university is going to say something. Obviously, they don't. And so we, you know, we ended up trying to go talk to him outside of his class. That was a whole debacle. But the why, huh?

John Dehlin [04:23:32] Why was that a debacle again?

Rachel Weaver [04:23:34] Well, we went to. So, okay, first I have to give context. This was the week leading up to Perspectives, which is the Black History Month performance that is at byu. And we did a spirit week. And one of the days we did was Throwback. That was like Throwback Thursday. And so we decided, oh, we're dressed up as Black Panthers on this Thursday. This is literally convenient. But this was also the day that we decided we were Gonna go to Brad Wilcox class.

Nate Byrd [04:23:58] We had decided to dress up as Black Panthers. Before him.

Rachel Weaver [04:24:01] Again before him. It was the day we picked throwbacks as Black Panthers.

John Dehlin [04:24:04] Like turtlenecks and turtlenecks.

Rachel Weaver [04:24:06] Berets in the leather. Yeah. The sun going glasses. So we. And the picture looks dope. I don't know if you've seen the picture, like, us standing next to Brigham Young with our fist up. Yeah, that's one of our favorite photos. So we had already planned this. Right. So then we go to Brad Wilcox class, and I don't even know how they heard about it because we didn't post anywhere on social media that we were going to go speak to him because we didn't want to be stopped. But I guess they heard from somewhere through the grapevine. And then security was there to meet us, but which is already very problematic considering, like, black people's relationships with police and security and us being criminalized.

Nate Byrd [04:24:43] And it was security that Brad Wilcox requested himself because he'd said he didn't feel safe.

Rachel Weaver [04:24:48] Yep.

Nate Byrd [04:24:49] With black students coming to his class.

Rachel Weaver [04:24:50] Yeah. So it was really bad. Like, the security was basically like. Then they started explaining, like the law to us. If you unlawfully, like, enter a classroom, like, it's like a. What are they saying? Like a misdemeanor. Yeah. So because he said that we can't go in during class. So then we were like, can we go in once the class ends? And they're like, technically, yes, but he doesn't feel safe. He's gonna feel very overwhelmed. Maybe you guys should try to set up a private meeting. One of the directors. They have like, a director of like, doctrine and like, what's the other one? And doctoring in, like, the other side of. No, there's like, doctrine. There's like. Because at BYU there's like doctrinal classes. And then there's like. Anyway, they have one of the directors of that department come and like, talk to us.

Nate Byrd [04:25:31] He was the dean of. Of the religion department, I think.

Rachel Weaver [04:25:33] Yeah, that's what I say. They have like two houses, though, because there's like the doctoral side and like the one they teach, like restoration stuff. So those are different departments. Anyway, but he came and, like, tried to be like, why don't we set up a meeting? We don't need to have this right now. And we were kind of like, no, we want to talk to him now. Like, we were very determined. You know, this is bringing my pre mission energy out for that.

Nate Byrd [04:25:54] Not hostile at.

Rachel Weaver [04:25:56] No, we weren't. We weren't hostile. We Were very calm because we were aware of the situation.

Nate Byrd [04:25:59] We sat outside quietly, waited for class to be over.

Rachel Weaver [04:26:02] And then class ended and we walked in to meet him. And we had us walk in on both sides of the classroom so he couldn't. I mean, you can walk past us, but you're gonna see a bunch of black students standing here on either side. And we go in and. Well, we go in and I end up going up. And I think it was me and you, Nate and Jared.

Nate Byrd [04:26:19] He was literally shaking.

Rachel Weaver [04:26:21] Yeah, he was shaking. And we were just like, we wanna talk to you about the comments that were made. He's like, like, I've already apologized. Like, I can't handle this. And his daughter tried to like, get with it with me. I was, I was about to. I'm sorry. I was like, girl, I'm from Chicago, don't. Don't try me right now. Like, I will hurt you. She came up to me like, why are you guys here? Like, what are you. I said, we're here to talk to Brad Wilcox. Back up unless you want to be stiff armed right now. I was like, oh, my gosh. I've never seen the aggression coming from a girl like this before. And the temple dress. Oh, gosh. And so it was just a very interesting encounter. And then I ended up getting his email address and we. He emailed. We emailed him that day and we ended up setting up a meeting with the bsu. Email me, Nate. And then ended up. It was me, Ronald Keegan, Sebastian, Nate, who all ended up in a meeting with him. And it was. I mean, Nate talked about this on his interview. The meeting was strange that we had. It was very much like him letting. Because we told him he needs to apologize to the black people, specifically, like a public apology. And he was like, well, I don't know if I can do that. Like, I don't know if the church will let me. Again, another experience that I'm like, and here we go with the church, like, letting me know things that I'm like, you guys don't care about black people. And we're like, you have to get an apology, like, approved. He was like, yeah, they don't want me saying too much anymore. So we're like, so you're being. They just want you to be quiet and go away so that this can, like, end. And that that whole situation just didn't rub me the right way because he was really being like, I want to say more. I wish I could do more. Do I believe that? I don't know. But he was really, like, using the church as a scapegoat as like, basically like he was being handicapped in his ability to share more or apologize again in the ways that he wanted to.

Nate Byrd [04:28:09] My biggest regret is not recording that meeting. I went in fully intending to and they asked us not to record it. And so I respectfully, you know, I respected their wishes and didn't, but I wish that I had.

Rachel Weaver [04:28:19] I wish you.

Nate Byrd [04:28:19] Because a lot of things were said. He started off by trying to relate to us by telling us that he

Rachel Weaver [04:28:25] was raised in Africa or something.

Nate Byrd [04:28:27] He lived in Ethiopia until he was 5 or 7, and he understood what it meant to be a minority.

Rachel Weaver [04:28:33] And we all said, what does that do with us? Why are you telling us this?

Nate Byrd [04:28:38] Right? None of us are from Ethiopia.

Rachel Weaver [04:28:41] So. Yeah, and then, I mean, Nate probably told you this too. He ended by giving us his book. He's like, I have a gift for all of you guys.

John Dehlin [04:28:47] Oh, yeah.

Rachel Weaver [04:28:48] And gives us his book signed, you think we want your book? And then it was the hug he gave me after. Do you remember the hugs?

Nate Byrd [04:28:56] Very uncomfortable.

Rachel Weaver [04:28:57] He like brought us in and gave me like this really close bear hug. And I'm like, you a fully, like, big ass grown man that I don't know, like, you know what I mean? It's not like you're like a father figure to me or anything. Like, why are you caressing me this closely? Like, it was just kind of uncomfortable, especially considering the context of the conversation we had just had. We didn't even end on like, best of friend vibes. It was very much like, well, here's what we want of you. We hope that you can do it, because right now you're letting us down. So that whole situation happened and we. Our first Black Menace video was in response. Like, we were doing like a stitch, kind of like reacting to the comments to like the talk that he gave. And then we ended up making like, other videos, kind of like just joking, asking black students their favorite things about byu. And then someone in the comments of one of our videos was like, oh, you should ask white people the same thing. So then we were like, yeah, let's go ask white people their favorite thing about byu. Just to show like the difference. And then we started being like, wait, we could really ask white students a lot of things. And so then we just started getting a lot of ideas. And then I think we asked about the priesthood band. And that's when, you know, someone told me that it was of God to my face. And then we just started asking more and more like, do you have any black friends? And then they started stumbling on the mic. And we just came up with more and more questions to ask because we really wanted to highlight the difference in the reality between black students and white students. You know, we go to school with white people who are just unaware of our lived experience as people in our experience at byu. And so we wanted those questions to really highlight how we have such different experiences because they don't even know what we're talking about. They're just genuinely confused. To show, like, we just live different lives and that we are just at such a different university. And obviously it caught a lot of national attention.

John Dehlin [04:30:44] So because I'm a creator and I've tried to do some activism here and there, like, I'm really interested in that moment where it's like, like, let's create an account and what are we going to call it? And if we create an account, what if it takes off? Like, that's like the birth, right?

Rachel Weaver [04:31:01] Yeah, we.

John Dehlin [04:31:02] Do you remember that kind of, that discussion?

Nate Byrd [04:31:04] There was no plan.

Rachel Weaver [04:31:05] There was no plan. We just were like, oh, black menaces. The school already hates us because we're always making noise about stuff. So we're already kind of menaces to them. And we're black. That was literally our thought. Like, we're like, we're already kind of menaces to the university.

John Dehlin [04:31:18] You thought of yourself as menaces?

Rachel Weaver [04:31:19] Yeah, because we do like to cause problems. Like, not cause problems, but, like, we go around, like, more.

Nate Byrd [04:31:24] So we go ahead. Yeah, we're like, we didn't fit the mold of the university. You know, we were different and we were proud of being different, you know, meaning, like, we're black, we're more left leaning. We want racial equality, all of those things. We're not accepting colorblindness. And so because. Because of our views and our opinions and our feelings on those types of

Rachel Weaver [04:31:45] things, and the way we challenged and the way we challenged the university and

Nate Byrd [04:31:49] we would challenge the university's things. And so because of that, they viewed us as menaces in the same way that, like, Dr. King was viewed as a menace, or Mahatma Gandhi or, you know, Nelson Mandela, like, all of them were viewed as menaces. And so that's kind of like the stance we took was, we're menaces, you know, we're menaces to byu. And so.

Rachel Weaver [04:32:03] And so we made that. Made the account. And again, we had no. We weren't really even doing it to blow up. We were genuinely just doing it just to do it. We didn't really Think, like, we think a couple people might see it, but not to the extent that it blew up. And it really shocked us. I mean, we took it by storm. Obviously, we were like, we gotta keep going with this and giving the people what they want. But we really had no expectations nor an intention to have the impact that we did. And it was. I mean, it made sense, though. Like, after we thought about it, we were like. I mean. I mean, we just are so used to the strange bubble that was Provo, Utah, the strange bubble that is BYU students. You know, the homogenous nature of them, the unawareness that the group of people has. And we knew our audience really well, so that's how we knew what questions to ask. And that's pretty much the story of that. And then it just kept blowing up after that.

John Dehlin [04:32:58] So for our viewers or listeners that haven't seen in any of these videos, what were some of the questions that you asked that maybe went most viral?

Rachel Weaver [04:33:09] Oh, our most viral video is asking, do you support gay marriage? Another one was.

John Dehlin [04:33:14] And the students would answer things.

Rachel Weaver [04:33:16] Some people said no, walked away. One person said, I understand that. I understand the. What do you say? The position of gay marriage, but I just don't support it. Like, personally, I don't support it. What is personally.

Nate Byrd [04:33:30] Someone else was like, yeah, if they want to do that.

Rachel Weaver [04:33:32] Yeah. Be like, I won't encourage it, but I accept it. What do you mean by that?

Nate Byrd [04:33:38] Somebody else said, I just do what the leaders tell me.

Rachel Weaver [04:33:40] Yeah.

Nate Byrd [04:33:41] Some wild answers.

Rachel Weaver [04:33:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:33:43] So, okay, what are some of the other big ones?

Rachel Weaver [04:33:46] Other big ones were.

John Dehlin [04:33:48] Didn't you, like, compare us? You, like, offered a statement from Hitler and a statement from Brigham.

Rachel Weaver [04:33:52] So we would, like, give a quote by, like, a church leader. And then we say, do. Did Adolf Hitler say this? Or Brigham Young? And people are like, I hope Hitler wrong. Yeah. So we were having fun with those. We were having a lot of fun. We would laugh so much on campus these days. We were just having, like, a good old time because it was a way to, like, release all the pain and, like, the hard experiences that we were having is that, like, we were, like. People were seeing what we were going through. We're like, oh, wow. People are actually seeing this. Like, it's bringing attention to an issue that we've experienced for so long and has caused so much pain. And we did it in, like, a humorous way, you know, and. And it was so unintentional. That's what the crazy part is, is we weren't even. We weren't even having, like, A big strategy. When we did it, we were just genuinely like, this is good, and people will understand it. And it. They did.

John Dehlin [04:34:43] Part of the masterstroke, from my opinion, as someone who had been trying to crush. Crack the social media bubble for a couple decades, is that you intentionally chose not to be directly confrontational. Like, it's so. You know, Mormons teach that contentions of the devil, that if you feel yucky, that that's Satan telling you that what you're doing isn't right. And so we have kind of a culture of niceness. But also, if you. No matter what you're doing, whether it's racial relations or whatever, ex Mormonism, church history, if you're too confrontational, if you're too negative, if you're too angry, it gives people an excuse to dismiss you.

Rachel Weaver [04:35:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:35:29] And part of what was brilliant about your strategy was it was literally just a question. Like, hey. And so you would ask this simple question. You'd be on campus, everyone would be dressed like. Like, BYU students. You'd ask a simple question and then let them answer. You wouldn't argue with them, you wouldn't belittle them, you wouldn't demean them. And you would also show, you know, good answers and not so good answers. Like, there was a master stroke of tone that you. You guys chose.

Rachel Weaver [04:36:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:36:02] Was that intentional?

Rachel Weaver [04:36:03] No, I. I don't. Like, there was no conversation had. That's why I say no. Like, and I think that's because we are all, like. I think we all just know that that's how things have to go at BYU used to. That's just kind of how we have to operate, is we know what we know, and if you don't know, we're not gonna explain it too much further. You know what I mean? Like, we're gonna show people for what it is, and we'll keep it pushing. Like, we fight the battles that we can. And I think just me and Nate were both in our senior year. We were tired. We had done a lot.

Nate Byrd [04:36:32] Black menaces got me through my last year, to be honest.

Rachel Weaver [04:36:35] Yep. Those last months were hard. And black menaces is what, like, kept us going. And so I say that to say we were very experienced with our audience. We were very. We were so used to this. And that's kind of how we thought we had to do it, I guess, to be.

John Dehlin [04:36:51] To be black in the Mormon Church, you have to know what lines you can and can't cross.

Rachel Weaver [04:36:56] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [04:36:57] So you had many, many years, if not over a decade of learning what lines you can and can't cross. So you. You came by that with lots of experience, but from my standpoint, it was a stroke of brilliance.

Rachel Weaver [04:37:09] Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:37:10] Yeah. But then also, I'll just be honest with you. I was trying to figure because, you know, BYU is so sacred to Mormon culture to have an insurgent movement from within. It doesn't happen all the time. Like, there's been the LGBT stuff recently, but, like, you don't see a lot of BYU students really speaking up, and especially on social media just because of the threat of being kicked out. And you named yourselves black menaces, but then you came across as kind of like earnest, kind, compassionate truth seekers. And honestly, I was trying to figure out, wait, do they believe the church is true? Do they have testimonies of the church? And are they just, like, trying to do humble, meek, faithful activism? Like, for me, from without side, I was trying to figure out where you guys stood.

Rachel Weaver [04:38:09] Yeah. What's interesting is that's evolved.

John Dehlin [04:38:11] So when you started, how was it when you started?

Rachel Weaver [04:38:14] I mean, I'm not going to speak on other people in our groups where they're standing. I'm just going to say that because, I mean, some people are still enrolled at byu, and so I'm just going to say that it's evolved. Nate can speak for himself on him. And I know Nate was one of the people who were more like, he's evolved and moved a little more away from what I know. But like I said, that's why I brought up. I was already mentally with the church. I was already kind of, you know, I made my decision that I don't think this is what I'm going to do after. Bye.

John Dehlin [04:38:41] Have you sort of, like, fully deconstructed where you're like, this church is not true, or was it more like the practical thing where it's like, this church is not working for me.

Rachel Weaver [04:38:49] Yeah, there's a difference. Not working for me.

John Dehlin [04:38:51] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [04:38:51] Yeah. And so I think. And there were things that I knew that weren't true, if that makes sense. Like, and. And I've said this, like, I don't know how I would ever go back, because I don't. Like, certain things I just don't agree with. And, like, I don't believe, like, that's not gonna. I don't know how it's gonna work because I'm gonna have to basically, like, decompartmentalized, like, oh, I believe this, but not this. Like, that doesn't make sense. So, yeah, I was definitely. And because of that, I was just like, Oh, I don't care. You know what I mean? Like, it's BYU don't hold. I do not hold that school close to my heart in this, like, memorialized way that a lot of people do in the church. I'm like, fuck that school. So I'm like, let's put this shit on blast. Like, and me, I was probably one of the more like, yeah, let's start the fire. I was definitely more on that team. Yeah, I was on my way out. Yes. That's what I wanted. Because I'm like, somebody needs to know that this was a crazy experience. I need other people to know that this. This shit was real.

John Dehlin [04:39:47] Well, another. Another thought I was having at the time. And you reached out to me. You were the first to reach out to me. Yeah, another thought I was having is. First of all, if white students did this, they would immediately be expelled. The only reason you weren't being expelled, in my mind immediately, was that you were black. And the Church knew that if they expelled you just for asking open, sincere questions, that it would be a national PR nightmare. But I was still worried you would get in trouble, potentially be suspended and be expelled. So the whole time I was worrying that it would threaten your status at byu. Were you worried at all that they would expel you from the university?

Rachel Weaver [04:40:32] No, because I wasn't worried because I knew we weren't doing anything against the honor code. I have very, like. I have this, like, kind of type A logical side of me that I'm like, yeah, let's go. Let's go. Bar for bar. This is what is in the honor code that we're doing. That's illegal. We know the film and video policy on campus. We're not violating any of those things, and we're not breaking the honor code. And we're not asking any questions that are proving what we believe about the Church or Joseph Smith or anything. So you have nothing to come after us with. So that's why. And we always vetted questions with ourselves and made sure. And that's part of the reason why we never said anything, because you don't. We're not letting them know what we think. We haven't said anything to grant ourselves because what. What would they. What would their reason be to expel us? Honor code violation. They had none.

John Dehlin [04:41:16] Embarrassing the Church.

Rachel Weaver [04:41:17] Yeah, yeah. That's not honor code violation. That's why I knew that we weren't going to get in trouble. Because now the Church themselves, that's a little messier when it gets to, like, bishops and I've seen crazy things. Excommunication and whatnot. That's a different house. But I'm saying BYU itself, they had nothing to put on paper that would warrant them. That. That's why it would be a PR nightmare. That's why they didn't do it, because they had no real evidence. If they had something to go off of. Oh, they would have tried it. I know they would have. But they didn't, so they couldn't.

Escalating Conflict and Impact of the Black Menaces

John Dehlin [04:41:46] Okay.

Rachel Weaver [04:41:47] Also, Nate, sorry. I want to give you a chance to say about, like, how you felt about things. The question before, I don't know if you want to say some more on that, like, and how, you know, you've. You felt how you felt at the beginning of Black Menaces versus now.

Nate Byrd [04:41:59] Yeah. So when Black Menaces began, you know how, like, you get to the bottom of a peanut butter jar and your knife is, like, just a little bit too short and you start to get peanut butter all over your fingers? That was me trying to find, like, the last vestiges of my testimony. It was. It was. It was barely there. I was really trying to make it work because I was terrified of what life would look like outside of the church. You know, I was of the belief that if I left the church, my life was going to fall apart. My wife would leave me. I would get kicked out of byu. I would lose the job I didn't have. I'd end up, I don't know, huddled up on a street corner somewhere.

Rachel Weaver [04:42:36] Meanwhile, I'm plotting for Nick to take shots.

Nate Byrd [04:42:39] Yeah, I mean, I really thought that my life. Life would fall apart without the church. But the last straw was Brad Wilcox. Well, actually, no, it wasn't Brad Wilcox. It was BYU's reaction to that, because at that time, I had already been working with the university. I had met with the president of the university. I had met with the vice president of student life. I met with the Dean of Inclusion. And I was trying to make all of these things happen. And then pretty much around the same time as Brad Wilcox, all of those things just kind of came to a head. And the sum total was, we can't do anything. Our hands are tied. Oh, wish we could help, but we just can't. And it was to the most simple things. Hey, say that you shouldn't have said this because of the harm that it does to black people. Say that we don't teach these things anymore. Oh, I wish I could do that. Can't do it. Give us a room to congregate in as black students. Oh, I Wish I could, but we can't give a speech at devotional. And I told this to President Worthing, give a speech at devotional just acknowledging that BYU was built on Native American land. I wish I could, but I can't. And so when all of those things came to a head and I just realized the church is not going to change.

Rachel Weaver [04:43:43] Yeah.

Nate Byrd [04:43:44] And it's not because they can't change. It's a deliberate choice not to change. There are people in the church who are making a deliberate choice to keep things the same way. And no matter what I do, that is not going to change. And so at that point, I was like, okay, because the only reason that I was staying was to try and find to make it a better place for people. It was like, you know, if I am not here, then what's gonna happen to people that join the church? And they experience the same pain that I felt because I wasn't staying because I believed I was staying because I felt like I had an obligation to other black people within the church.

Rachel Weaver [04:44:14] Yeah.

Nate Byrd [04:44:16] And at that point, I realized that nothing that I was going to do would change, that the church is built on white supremacy and that they have built themselves into a a hundred, $250 billion industry or corporation by perpetuating white supremacy. And once I realized that that was it, I was like, all right, I already got my last ecclesiastical endorsement. I'm not going to church anymore. And it took me a long time after that. Like, it probably took another year and a half to deconstruct fully. But that was where it. That was where it left me. So my last couple semesters at byu, I was. Or my last semester byu, I was. I was checked out.

Rachel Weaver [04:44:53] Yeah. And. And feeling like also on that, just like, it's not worth it to me, like, for my own mental health at this point. Like, I. Since I mentally checked out of things back again, like fall of 21, things have been like, I've had other life challenges and things I've gone through, but not about the church. Right. Like, if I'm going to be a religious person, I think it should only benefit me. It should not caused the problems. And the amount of time I spent talking about it, the amount of time I spent thinking about it, the amount of times that I would cry about the church and the feelings that I had about it were unnecessary for what should be. Like, religion should not feel that way to you. A belief in, like, a higher power should bring peace and better feelings. And it did up until it didn't. And so for Me, it's like I can no longer subject myself to this feeling on top of everything else that life brings.

John Dehlin [04:45:52] Yeah. Okay, so I'm dying to know, once Black Menaces went viral, were there BYU students who kind of looked at y' all as heroes, who were just, like, cheering you on and celebrating you? And what was that like? That was white students, too.

Rachel Weaver [04:46:11] Yeah, it was mostly.

Nate Byrd [04:46:12] Yeah. It kind of became a litmus test for who we could trust and who we didn't.

Rachel Weaver [04:46:17] Yeah, it was. It was. I mean, it still doesn't sit in sometimes. Cause even just, like, meeting people from other schools and them seeing what we do and them being, like, so proud of what we've done, it's kind of. To me, this is just like, again, this is just who I am and, like, what I believe and how I fight for things and how I'm gonna bring attention to things. Like, no matter where I go, I'm gonna To try to help whatever environment I'm in if I see injustices, if I see something happening, unfair. And so it's cool to know that we have people that were on our side. I think that was the biggest thing. Less about yay, us, and more to know there's people actually fighting for us and that care about these things too. Because BYU can feel very lonely when it comes to those things. Can feel like people don't care. People are opposed to you. And so it was very comforting to know that. That we have people with us.

John Dehlin [04:47:09] So, like, you're walking around campus and are people, like, going, good job, and, like, shaking your hand or, like, wanting your signature?

Nate Byrd [04:47:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:47:20] When we were, like, kind of celebrities. Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [04:47:23] Like, when we were sitting down, like, at the black table, people would come

John Dehlin [04:47:25] up to us and say, what?

Rachel Weaver [04:47:27] Thank you so much. We had somebody cry in front of us one time. Very powerful. Yeah. Just, again, especially with the issues that we covered around LGBTQ students, I think that was also very powerful in the work that we did because we felt very much like an ally to that community, seeing, you know, the direct policies that impacted them and also, like, the pain that that caused as black people who. I mean, we have policies in the church historically that caused pain for us and are still causing pain. So we can empathize with, you know, our brothers and sisters are part of that community, and we want to bring attention to that as well. And so I think that that was also part of why people felt grateful that we even brought attention to those things that, you know, all of us are straight on the. In the black menaces. And so Having that was, I think, powerful for people too.

John Dehlin [04:48:12] You took kind of an intersectional approach, right?

Nate Byrd [04:48:15] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:48:16] Yeah, that was important.

Nate Byrd [04:48:17] I think we helped a lot of different demographics feel seen because we asked questions not, you know, we ask questions about queer people, about black people, about indigenous and first nation people. Like, we really tried to, we asked about daca, like, so we tried to. To include like every possible intersection that there could be because that's so important.

Rachel Weaver [04:48:35] Question about women.

John Dehlin [04:48:36] Yeah, yeah.

Nate Byrd [04:48:38] Asking people if they were feminists.

Rachel Weaver [04:48:39] Oh my gosh, that one was so funny.

Nate Byrd [04:48:41] We had a lot of women say that they were not feminists and you know, men too. And it was wild.

Rachel Weaver [04:48:46] Welcome to byu.

John Dehlin [04:48:47] Yeah. And then did you ever experience any animosity, adversity, bullying?

Rachel Weaver [04:48:54] Not verbally all online. Like there are a lot of black people who. Not a lot, but there are some black people who. I think people also knew how some of us in black ministers felt about the church. And so I think people saw what we did as an attack on byu, an attack on the church. And so the black people that were very faithful or more so had internalized racism that they have in process, they were not happy with the things that we made and the things that we did and the attention we brought, the type of attention we brought to byu. And then, yeah, we definitely have our haters online.

John Dehlin [04:49:31] But you never felt physically threatened or intimidated as a BYU student? Physically, no. Okay. Just haters online. What?

Nate Byrd [04:49:39] We felt more empowered than anything.

Rachel Weaver [04:49:41] Yeah. We were like, you can't touch us. That's how I felt on BYU campus. I was like, they can't do nothing to me because I'm following, following all your little rules that you made.

John Dehlin [04:49:51] And by, by its peak and well, at its peak, you were doing interviews with what national newspapers or what were

Rachel Weaver [04:49:59] some of the Newsweek Buzzfeed. What's that? When the one they rank all the stuff, what's that? Best U.S. in World Report. Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:50:08] We doing with them NPR. Any NPR cover?

Rachel Weaver [04:50:10] We did an NPR one.

Nate Byrd [04:50:11] We did a couple different NPR ones.

Rachel Weaver [04:50:13] Yeah. Like smaller stations and stuff. Yeah. Business Insider. Yep.

Nate Byrd [04:50:17] Did a few podcasts.

John Dehlin [04:50:20] And what impact do you think you had at byu or did you.

Rachel Weaver [04:50:25] I think we have left a big one. I think this is something that people will always remember that like there was this group of black students that made some crazy ass videos. And even if people don't like them, I think people are going to remember it and it's cool to think about. I don't know. I've never thought about it that way. I'm like, oh, that's true. People are gonna always remember this.

Nate Byrd [04:50:44] Yeah, I think we gave visibility to. We gave national visibility to an issue that I think needed to be addressed. Because BYU has been a problem for a long time, and the church has been a problem for a long time, but they've also done a very good job of clamping down on that and making sure that a lot of people are not aware of it or don't know about it.

John Dehlin [04:51:06] It.

Nate Byrd [04:51:06] And what we did was we brought international awareness to the ignorance of students at BYU as a direct result of the church and the curriculum that they teach at byu. Issues that should be at least relatively understood or known about were things that people didn't understand or didn't know. And then, of course, you have the opposite words or not the opposite, but you have the other side, where it's the things that people believe. You know, if it's something that you want to believe, then that's fine. But it also brought awareness to just, like, the level of both prejudice and discrimination that took place on that campus. And so I think, you know, with things that popped up in the future, like the whole situation with Rachel Richardson and other things that have happened at byu, I think that black menace has helped bring awareness to that as well. And, you know, when those things did happen, people would reach out to us and ask us what we had to say about it or what we thought. And so, yeah, I think that it definitely did that for a lot of people. And it also probably gave some perspective to Gen Z teenagers who may be thinking about coming to byu. It gave them a little bit more of what to expect or people, like, in Rachel's situation who were trying to do research and figure out what is BYU like, it gave them a better idea of them.

John Dehlin [04:52:23] So, Rachel, what. What did that make the rest of your time at byu? Like, once that happened?

Rachel Weaver [04:52:29] Black businesses. Yeah, it made it fun. It made it so fun. We had so much fun. It really. I don't know, it was just like the cherry on top in the best way for my BYU experience. I loved it. It was. I'm glad that it ended that way. And we talk about this all the time, like, we're so grateful for it. I don't think I would have survived without it because, again, it felt like a marathon race for sure, trying to get through byu, just my own life going on overall. And then, like, being a black student is always just, like, tiring, you know, because, again, there's always something happening. It's always feeling, like, on edge and Just not having that comfort or that freedom, because, again, I'm. I was also doing what I wanted to do while I was going to byu. And so that's always, like, risky, but it felt very freeing.

Leaving Mormonism and Reflecting on the Journey

John Dehlin [04:53:21] So circling back to your upbringing, and this is something that I struggle with, my Mormon upbringing. We spent a good hour or two talking about how beneficial the Mormon Church was to your single mom, to you and your siblings, and to your family's upbringing. It gave you access to whiteness, to power, to education, to opportunity that your cousins and others from the south side of Chicago would have never had. So, on the one hand, the Mormon Church and BYU have been in, you could argue, have been an incredible positive asset and benefit to your life.

Rachel Weaver [04:54:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:54:08] In, like, not just a small way.

Rachel Weaver [04:54:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:54:11] In a truly transformative way relative to your peers. On the other hand, by the time you're done with byu, you can't wait to get out of there. You're ready to leave the church, and you're even being an activist to shine a spotlight on the harm the church causes people. How did and have you navigated that paradox of gratitude and anger?

Rachel Weaver [04:54:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:54:40] What's that been like?

Rachel Weaver [04:54:42] I think what I've come to understand and accept is that things can change. Things don't have to stay the same. I feel like we grew up and we think that things have to always look the same and serve the same purpose. Like, oh, this is what it meant to me, and it has to continue to mean this. And the church in duality can exist. Multiple things can exist at the same time as well. Like, the church can be helpful. The church can also be harmful, which is why I, you know, I'm super understanding of people that want to be active. You know what I mean? Like, even in terms of, like, my dating after, like, I'm cool with being with someone who wants to be in the church as long as they're not, like, gonna be on my ass about my lifestyle. You know what I mean? Like, I understand why people are still a part of it, and I unders. Like, I get it. I really do. And I do have gratitude. And I. And those are fond memories that I'll always have of. And the relationships that I built in the church, like, they'll never leave me. Those are relationships that I'll take throughout my entire life. And so I can have gratitude and acceptance of the good that the church has brought me and the positive memories that I have and will continue to have, and I can hold those close to me while also realizing that I'm in A different stage of life. I'm a different person than my mother was. I'm a different person than my siblings. I have different needs than they do. And I don't need to compare myself to them for choosing to stay or, you know, seeing the same things I see, but still, you know, being involved in the way they do. I don't have to judge that. I just know that I have different needs than them. I have different things that are going on in my life, and I need different supports. And I see the value that the church brings and church overall because. Because organized religion is kind of like something I have an issue with overall just because I think that it can be harmful. And I think something that I've been thinking about a lot with this upcoming generation is that I think organized religion as a whole for the upcoming generation is just not something we need. I think the community aspect of church is something that people do need. So I'm waiting for the next person or next philosopher or something to figure out how we can create community without churches because of the harm that religion has. And organized religion, you know what I mean, has in particularly done to not just the LDS community, but other communities as well. And so I think that just holding space for that and being okay with that. And I think when I first was feeling all my feelings about the church, I didn't feel that way. I felt like it had to be very black or white, it had to go this way, or it had to look this way, or why don't all my friends who are LDs not understand why I'm feeling what I'm feeling? And I don't feel that way. Like, you don't have to understand why I'm feeling what I'm feeling. That's fine because I can hold space for you the same way I hope that you hold space for me and what I'm feeling. And I can I understand what you're going through the same way that I hope that you understand that my needs in life is different than yours. It's like most people that have been close to me in the church have been. And I think that's really how I do it, is just. And I think that's come with just maturity of time. Like, I'm 24 now, and just having more experiences in life have made me be more gracious to myself and past versions of myself. And I don't look down on what I did or how. Like, do I have wishes? Like, yeah, maybe I wish that I would have. Like, I look back at high school, me And I wish I would have been more relaxed. I wish I would have, you know, the way that I am now. I wish I could bring this personality to high school me. But that's not how life works. We have experiences that build us into who we are. And remembering, like, everything that's happened up to this point has helped me to be the person that I am right now and will continue to be. And so that's kind of the best way that I've been able to kind of grapple with that and accepting that things do change. And that's how life works. Things are supposed to change. It means you're growing. And to me, that's the purpose of being a person, is to continue to grow and evolve into the fullest version of yourself. And accepting that the fullest version of me is going to look different even in like three or four years, what that looks like and what that means in participation in different things or, you know, engaging in different activities can, can change your religion. Religious, like affiliation or activity can, can vary at different times in my life. And that's okay. And I don't need to, like, judge that or, or be upset at what I do or don't. What I feel works for me in the moment. Because for so long I was trying to say, it needs to work, it needs to work. And judging what that looked like, like, instead of just accepting that, like, no, it wasn't working and you were trying to make it work, and that's okay, that it's not working. Because life is about figuring out what does work and doing that, and then when it doesn't, we're going to figure out something else.

John Dehlin [04:59:13] I have like a thousand questions, but, like, when you say working, you're a college graduate, you've got a good job, like, working, working. It worked like, it worked and it's blessed your life. What do you mean it's not working? Yeah, like, okay, okay. If somebody said to you, well, the United States, of course, slavery, colonialism, mistreatment of women, like, lots of problems, and you're still a US Citizen, like, you can't join an organization that isn't problematic. So yes, the church in some ways has a bad past and in some ways isn't working for you now, but in all the important ways, it is working for you. If somebody were to say that the Mormon Church is no more flawed than the United States of America, you've retained your US Citizenship, why not retain your Mormonism? Because it's flawed, but not any more flawed than any other organization.

Rachel Weaver [05:00:07] What would you say a lot of thoughts. Number one, at least the United States knows that slavery happened and acknowledges that. I think that the church really struggles with acknowledgment. And I think that's a very big piece for them to get over to be eventually a better place for black members. And I think that's a big. That doesn't work for me. So, yeah, I have a degree and I got an education, but acknowledgement of me and the trauma of my people, that is something I need to be a black person and be my full self in whatever space I show up in. And so, yeah, there are other spaces that have just as problematic of history. However, I get to choose which institutions I engage in and how they choose to acknowledge their history and what are they doing to rectify their own past with their present actions. Right. Like corporate America overall is a very fucked up place for black people overall and hasn't been welcoming to us. However, me as a black person, I get to choose the organizations I work for. There are organizations that are actually doing real tangible things and trying to be more equitable. I can work for them. I don't have to work for the places that aren't doing anything. And then that's my choice and that's what I get and that's the autonomy that I have as a black person. And how do I create safe spaces for myself? Because white supremacy is so evasive in the United States and everywhere isn't a safe space for me. And this is one of the ways in which I'm not privileged. Right. Like white people don't necessarily always have to do that, but I do. Yeah, that'll be my response.

John Dehlin [05:01:35] So if, if the Mormon church tomorrow were to apologize for the priesthood ban and for all the racist stuff and all the past racist statements and say we were racist, we're sorry, sorry for the priesthood ban, would that be enough?

Rachel Weaver [05:01:50] No.

John Dehlin [05:01:51] What else would it need to do?

Rachel Weaver [05:01:52] I don't know. I think that those types of changes take time because they disavowed a lot of the racist things they said in the past. That hasn't changed the tone that people have. That hasn't changed the mindset that a lot of the older membership that makes big decisions for the church also has. So I think it would need time as well. I think people are becoming more progressive overall and I think the church is worried about that and the things that they do. And they're, they're very, very worried about their young population dropping off like flies. Because based on what I'm seeing from My friends and the people I know, that is what's happening. We are all dropping like flies because the church is not getting with the times and they're not changing, and that's fine. So we're to just going, going to go somewhere else and it's not going to be here. And to me, yeah, those kind of actual. To feel that sustainable change would take a lot longer than a statement, because that statement, how many people are going to be mad about that statement? How many people are not going to actually, like, implement real change? And that is not going to change the fabric of these wards, the culture of these wards, nor is it going to all of a sudden make a ton of black people get baptized into the church. Okay.

John Dehlin [05:02:59] And so then there's the question of whether the church apologizes or not and. Or whether the church, the Mormon Church, makes the changes that it needs to make to be truly friendly and hospitable and comfortable to black people. Then there's a question of whether it was ever true to begin with. Has that ever been an important question to you? And how have you shaken out on the truth aspects of Mormonism?

Rachel Weaver [05:03:26] Yeah. So that's something I'm still, like, figuring out certain parts of. I think, like I said before throughout this interview, like, there's certain parts that I don't like, think are true. Like, Like I have issues with organized religion just picking and choosing what we're saying. And now we have modern prophets that are speaking, but modern prophets have said a lot of terrible things. And so I think there are certain things that I know I don't believe and other things that I'm not, I haven't fully figured out. I haven't, like, spent time to think about or really researched. And I think for me, just parts of that progress is just like, the church is definitely an organization, it's a business. And so I don't. Again, that's why I have issues with organized religion as a whole. Like, you can't be this place that's trying to bring comfort and help people when you're trying to make money. And you know what I mean? Like, you're a business. At the end of the day, you care about your success more than you care about people, which is capitalism. And so it's. That's something also that I struggle with. And so I don't. I haven't fully explored all the parts of the church and what is or isn't true. Like, it just all feels like, very foggy, if that makes sense. Like, it all feels murky because the way the church teaches is that, like, it's, you know, a domino effect. If one is true, it's all true. So if prophets aren't true, then definitely everything else has gone up into the air. And I think I just haven't spent the mental energy to figure out what exactly that means for me and, like, what that explanation looks like in my own, like, deconstruction of my faith. I just think that I'm like, yeah, this isn't true, and I'm not really fucking with the rest then obviously.

John Dehlin [05:04:59] So have you like, even, like, tried to read the CES letter or.

Rachel Weaver [05:05:03] No, I never read it. I've never read it. Heard a lot about it. I've never taken the time to read it. I don't know why. I just haven't done that. And. And I think it's cause I was just trying to survive byu and I just graduated last year. And so I think it would have been a lot to be like, okay, yeah. And I, like, I have specific things that I have issues with and I don't agree with, but I think it would be a lot to do that on top of everything else that I had to deal with as a black student. And so just trying to, like, recuperate from that. I don't know if you feel this way, Nate. Just trying to, like, recuperate with being a normal person and, like, doing normal people things, like going out to drink with my friends, you know, and, you know, wearing what I want. Yeah. And just stuff like that. Like, just being okay with being a normal person is still, like, a lot of mental energy in certain relationships I

John Dehlin [05:05:50] have and maybe how to embrace or understand what blackness means to you and how your identity might transform now that you're leaving Mormonism. Is that part of the work?

Rachel Weaver [05:06:04] A little bit. I feel like I have. I figured that out a while ago. Like, I feel like I always knew what my blackness looked like. Like, that was more of my teenage years. I feel like I've always known what that looks like. I think just feeling, like, comfortable to lean into that, which I always have. I just feel like I now have more opportunities now that I'm not so, like, holding tight to Mormonism, I have more opportunities to actually, like, experience that joy that I've always felt and have had. And now I just put my. I put myself in more spaces to experience it.

John Dehlin [05:06:34] Okay, as far as, like, Joseph Smith and the golden plates in the Book of Mormon, do you have a conclusion as to what Joseph Smith was and what the Book of Mormon is? If it's not God's holy scripture.

Rachel Weaver [05:06:51] I don't know if it's scripture. I know that it's like, a piece of work that brings people comfort, and it brought me comfort at a certain point. So I think that's the hard place where I'm at of, like, how do I figure out what that means? Right. Like, it's something I believe that, like, brought me a lot of peace and happiness. And, like, fully being, like, that's bullshit. Is like, okay, like, I can accept that. But, like, what does that mean now? Like, how do I. I don't know. Does that make sense? Like, rectifying, like, the strong drachnal belief that I had for so long is like, a whole nother journey that I will have to go on, but when I'm ready to have the capacity to do that.

John Dehlin [05:07:29] Because as a missionary, you would have borne testimony to all these things, right? Yeah.

Rachel Weaver [05:07:34] And now I'm like, yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [05:07:37] And so you've mentioned this before, but, like, what is God to you now? How has your view of God changed since you kind of have stopped believing in Mormonism? And how have your views of Jesus and the Atonement and Christianity changed or not changed?

Rachel Weaver [05:07:54] Yeah, so I still very much believe that I'm a Christian. Like, I find comfort in having a savior who, like, understands me and, like, what I experienced and having someone who can support me and, like, understand what I went through and that I can live happily forever, you know, or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, live in heaven and whatever like, that brings me comfort still. And I think that God. I do believe in the idea that God is a loving parent and that he wants all of his children to be back with him. I do believe in that. And that's why I think there are a bunch of different religions, because I think that he wants you to come back in whatever way that makes sense for you and whatever way that brings you the most peace and happiness or community, whatever that looks like for you. You do that. And I think that's kind of like my belief in God. And I believe in Christ, but I don't think that everybody needs to, you know what I mean, like, on this earth. And I haven't really figured out what does that mean for, like, people who don't believe in Christ if they're going to live with God, like, what is this? What does that mean? Like, I still need to figure those things out, and I just haven't really spent the mental energy to think further about what that means and develop that part of my Beliefs.

John Dehlin [05:09:03] Have you heard about the Calvary Baptist Church in Salt Lake City? Have you? I mean, you said you're not big on organized religion. Do you see religion, organized religion, churches playing a role in your life going forward or not so much?

Rachel Weaver [05:09:16] I don't know. I think about this a lot. Just like when I have a family at some point, what would I want my children to experience? Like, what do I. I want them to have a belief in a higher power. I want them to have a belief that there is a God who, you know, created all of this. Like, that's something important to me. How that will shake out, I don't know yet. Thankfully, I'm not having children for a very long time, so I have time to figure that out. But I don't know because I do have issues with all churches. It's not just this church. Like, I don't like historically black churches either. There's a lot of problematic things there. Very homophobic. I don't want my kids around that. So I just. That's why I say I don't know what that will look like. Cause again, I just. Organized religion as a whole is just. I don't think that's for me and I don't know if. And again, that community aspect, which was very valuable for me growing up, what does that look like? Like, what efforts will I have to make as a parent to make sure my kids would still have community without. What I feel like is, you know, a harmful experience of being in an organized church.

John Dehlin [05:10:20] How you mentioned having a believing mom and believing siblings. How has your transition away from believing Mormonism and participating Mormonism been received by your believing Mormon family? And how has it affected, if any, your relationship with them? If you want to talk about it.

Rachel Weaver [05:10:38] Yeah, it was very bad for a while. Nate knows about this. It was not good for the first little bit. It was. I think some of my family members were in not the best place. I think they were in a bit of self righteousness and I think that it scared them as well. I think that it's scary though. The church only teaches fear when it comes to no longer choosing to participate. And I think a lot of disappointment as well, of feeling like, wow, this is. And I think for my siblings, we're all so similar. Again, it brings fear just because, like, if I do it and we're almost the same people. What does that mean for you? I'm not. They haven't told this to me. This is just me assuming possibly what they could be feeling because I would challenge beliefs. I Don't as much anymore because I've gotten into too many arguments. But I used to challenge them a lot on things, and, yeah, it was a lot worse, but now it's a lot better. My siblings are very understanding. I've been very clear about what I do, and I'm more confident in who I am and how I'm living my life. And I'm not gonna hide parts of my life from you because you. You don't agree with it. And I've made it clear with my siblings, if you make judgments on me because of how I choose to live my life or not live my life, then we don't need to be close. Because I'm not a bad person. Because I don't believe in this church, because I don't wear the same underwear as you doesn't mean that I should be treated different or that I should. You all of a sudden are questioning what my morality is now? Because that's how I felt for my siblings, that they were, like, questioning what my moral compass was or what my. And I'm like, I don't know why you're assuming that now I'm going to all of a sudden be doing these things that are just not aligned with who I am as a person. That was kind of crazy to me. And so I think my family has gotten more comfortable, though, and is, like, open. They've expanded their own idea as well. Like, they've become more open and more, like, vocal to me on things that they see that I care about and issues that led me to leave the church. They understand them more now than they did in the past, which has been comfortable. Excuse me. To know that, like, my family, like, sees and understands why I am where I am, which I've also accepted that people don't have to understand where I'm at. I don't need to be understood by everybody. And that's very much okay. But it has been nice to know that the people around me, like, support me. And, like, they know that I won't get married in the temple. Like, I've been very clear with that. That's not gonna happen. And, like, I'm dating someone right now. When they've, like, made comments like, oh, that, like, they're accepting, they don't seem like they're gonna have an issue with that, just as I made that very clear. Like, this is. And I feel like that's a very big sign for them to be like, oh, she's serious about this. Because I also think that they thought it was, like, A phase type thing.

John Dehlin [05:13:18] So generally, you're feeling on good terms with your believing Mormon family now.

Rachel Weaver [05:13:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:13:22] That's good.

Rachel Weaver [05:13:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:13:23] I'm happy for you.

Rachel Weaver [05:13:24] But it was a rough patch. Like, if you had asked me December 21, it would have been a much different conversation. Yeah, they've gotten. They've become more open and more understanding. But it was. It was tough for a little bit because it's a big change for people. And it also, I mean, the church teaches. If I'm gone, it's also, I mean, my family's never been sealed together, so it doesn't even matter. But, like, you know, that idea of one is gone. Like the whole family's fucked up or, you know.

John Dehlin [05:13:50] Yeah. Because your mom would need to have a faithful Mormon husband for your whole family to be sealed together, which also

Rachel Weaver [05:13:55] always was a problem to me. That never sat right with me.

John Dehlin [05:13:59] Yeah, it's should be needed, right? Yeah. I don't know if you even would want to answer this question, but if you could do a Jimmy Stewart, like, if you could go back in time and your mom is receiving the Mormon missionaries and you're current, Rachel, visiting your mom as an angel, and you're trying to give your mom advice as to whether or not to join the church. Church knowing where it led her and your family and you and your siblings. Do you have a sense for whether you would tell her not to do it or whether you would say do it?

Rachel Weaver [05:14:39] Oh, I'd say do it.

John Dehlin [05:14:40] Really?

Rachel Weaver [05:14:40] I mean, I think there's been so many beneficial experiences for me, and I cannot imagine my life without the experience that I've had. Being a missionary, going to byu. Like, this is so much of my identity and who I am. I mean, it would be a whole new life, a whole new world waiting for. Which wouldn't necessarily be bad. Like, I could figure out a new life. But this is who I am and who I became to be. And maybe this is who I'm supposed to be and the life path I was supposed to take. And so I try not to live with, like, oh, I'd go back and do this different because things happened the way they were supposed to. They shook out the way they were supposed to. And this has now made me a more empathetic person. It's made me a more understanding person. It's made me, you know, be more accepting of people from different walks of life. And I'm grateful for that because I don't think that. That I would be if it wasn't for the way. And I mean, the sense of, like, even people that I don't agree with. That's what I mean as well. That, like, I think for a long time before, everything I've been through in the last, like, since I was 18, I was very, like, not understanding of people that weren't like me. Like, if you are not. I don't even mean LDs. I mean people that were not very open and understanding. I'm like, you're a bigot. You are just like. I. I'm gonna be honest, just very. Those kind of ideas, I just did not. I don't want to call any political terms out, but just that just. I was not compassionate nor understanding. And I feel like I am more now. I don't accept it, but I feel on the inside like it doesn't bother me in the same way. Like, I just kind of am like, okay. Like, that's like. I understand. It's not gonna move me and where I'm at, however, I feel like a much more understanding person, which I'm grateful for, because. Because it's needed in life. Not everybody I ever work with will be like me, nor go about things like me. And I talk about this in therapy. I just struggle overall when people don't do things the way I would. And so that's like, an issue outside of church as well. But again, I just think my experiences have helped me to be better about feeling contentious about that.

John Dehlin [05:16:38] So finish the sentence. I feel gratitude to the Mormon Church for the role it's played in my life, and I feel. Feel what would be the opposite emotion.

Rachel Weaver [05:16:47] And I feel like they caused a lot of trauma in my life. Yeah, BYU has been a very traumatic experience that I'm still recovering from, and I hope that I can get back to trusting white people in a normal capacity. I'm serious.

John Dehlin [05:17:06] So BYU damaged your ability to trust white people?

Rachel Weaver [05:17:09] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [05:17:11] You felt like you had more trust for white people before byu?

Rachel Weaver [05:17:15] Yes. I hate that I'm being honest. Like, the whole proving yourself thing, that is real. That is still me to this day. I'm trying to get better at it, and I don't know if that'll happen until, like, I move away from here. But, yeah, that's definitely 100% true.

Nate Byrd [05:17:31] Yeah. I would say that white people at BYU are extremely fake. Not all of them. Them, but a lot of them will be very, very fake. So they might, you know, pretend to be one thing and say, we're all children of God, and then just spew, like, the most, you know, vicious or hateful things at you in another, you know, another platform. Or, like, if you go onto the Black Menaces, TikTok or Instagram and you read the comment section, you'll see that there's a lot of love and support. And then you'll see from other people that there's just a lot of hatred. And it'll be burner accounts. And it's like, okay, well, we know that these people who are saying these things, who are doing these things, whatever, feel this way. They're out there, but you never know just by talking to them. And so it's safer just to assume that those burner accounts are just everybody. Right. And it's like, why people have to kind of prove themselves that they're trustworthy in order to kind of be let into our more personal circles. You know, we work with white people on a more professional basis. And then Black Menaces has kind of become a litmus test. Like, if someone is supportive of what we do as Black Menaces, then that's definitely an indicator that there's someone who is more closely allied with our causes and the things that we're trying to accomplish. But, yeah, outside of that, it's very, very hard to trust white people and to let them into more personal, more vulnerable space, because there's always the chance that they say or do something that creates harm or creates more trauma.

Rachel Weaver [05:19:04] Cause I've even had, like, white people that I've had to, like, I've gotten in disagreements with. Like, I'm having to now prove to you what has happened to me. You're not believing me. You're questioning what I'm saying to you. I don't want to do that ever again. And I don't have time for that. I have too much. Like, life is hard enough dealing with regular life, dealing with grief, dealing with relationships, trying to figure out my career. What the hell do I want to do? Fuck capitalism. Like, all this stuff that I've got going on. And I sure to hell don't got time to sit here and explain to someone who I think would be my friend, who I'm trying to empathize with. And now you're questioning what the hell I'm telling you about my experience? I'm very good off that.

John Dehlin [05:19:47] So is it fair to say maybe you're not long for Utah in terms of your permanent residence, or might you stay here? Anyway?

Rachel Weaver [05:19:54] I'm here right now. I'm not trying to stay here long term, but I'm here right now.

John Dehlin [05:19:59] And this may be too hard to answer, or maybe it'll Be really easy. So not your mom. You've already said that if you could go back and your mom was about to join the church, you would not tell her to not join. Right, Right. But, like, let's just say in 2023, a single mom in south side of Chicago is about to join the church, and she comes on this Mormon Stories interview, and she's like, rachel, you were raised Mormon. You're from the south side. Should I join the Mormon Church? As a black single mom, do you know what you would say to her?

Rachel Weaver [05:20:34] I'd say, it's up to you. There's a lot of good that can come. There's a lot of things that you need to be aware of that are also gonna come. And I feel like it's hard because the church is different now in lots of ways. Wards always change. So, like, my ward is different. You know what I mean? Like, I just feel like it's hard to give one answer because I'm like, there's so many variables. Like, your experience might be better. My ward members might be better. You know what I mean? Like, not that they were bad to begin with, but you have different circumstances you're dealing with. And so I'm like. Like, as a single parent, it does offer a lot of safety and security that is needed when you have a missing parent in the house. And that was valuable to me. And so I'm like, I'm not gonna tell you no, so that your kids miss out on that, you know? However, it's like, there are also harmful things. So it's like, join, but let me be in your ear every week so you can know that you're not crazy and you can have someone kind of guiding you through. Cause I wish that that's kind of what we had was like, we were just like, you know, maybe even someone who left the church, just like, guide us and not necessarily tell us certain things or whatever, but just to make you feel reaffirmed in your feelings and, I don't know, just helping you through whatever choice you decide to make. That's how I felt. Like, everyone that I would ever talk to throughout my entire teenage years, young adult, like, was always like, it has to be true. And I never felt like I got someone to, like, lead me and guide me and help me to actually be like. It's literally what, Whatever you want.

John Dehlin [05:22:03] So again, there's the sentence. Young, black, single mom from Chicago, here's all the good that you will experience by joining the Mormon Church. And I know that you could list that if you were to say, but here is the risk or the potential harm. What would you list?

Rachel Weaver [05:22:23] I'd list like internalized racism and not being able to like get over it. You also risk losing a sense of identity and a sense of self and having to rediscover that. You also risk lots of self esteem issues, especially for young black girls. You risk like not feeling valued, not feeling beautiful and being a part of a community where beauty standards are genuinely unattainable for you and just feeling like not valued for the things that are uniquely a part of our community. People, Black people are resilient. Black people are people that, you know, I was taught to always stand up for things, to speak out on what I view, because that's our people. We have the civil rights movement like that, that's what I come from. And so that's not valued though for women or overall in the LDS Church, it's very much like do what you're told, put your head down. And so that's part of what you're risking experiencing is confrontation from that.

John Dehlin [05:23:20] Really quickly, Donald Corbett, a black general authority for the Mormon Church, has come out against activism against the church. Do you have a quick comment to Brother Corbett about his activism against church activism? As a, as an activist yourself, I'd

Rachel Weaver [05:23:37] say nothing in life has ever changed by people being complacent ever. If so, we be in a real fucked up place because women's rights, LGBTQ rights, black people, you having the right to even stand up there, Corbett, you having the right to even have the priesthood, let's be honest here, was brought to you by activism. So that's not the right comment to make. Because people, this is what happens in generations. You need the generation below you to call you out. You need the generation below you to make you better. So you calling out activism is like, it's calling out progression of life and how the world works and operates. Because there is always a group trying to fight for something because they're always the way that America has been set up. There's always going to be some type of injustice that we're working towards overcoming. And I think, yeah, that's just, that's just like not a, not a move. And, and you're wanting to be in a place where people that's giving dictatorship. Like you want people to just shut up and do what you say. You don't want people to have their own thoughts. You don't want them to call you out and help you to be better. You want to just be complacent with where you're at. And you want people to just nod their heads and say yes. And to me, that's not an organization at all that I ever want to be a part of. I don't want to be in a relationship, romantic or friendship that I can't say, hey, this is not cool. Because that's basically what activism is. Calling out what you see and being like, this is how it can be better, better. And if that's what the church wants, then they're gonna lose a lot more people. Nate, I don't know if you have any thoughts about that too. Oh, right. It's just a big sigh. Like what?

Nate Byrd [05:25:18] Clarence Thomas and Ahmad Corbett are cut from the same cloth.

Rachel Weaver [05:25:21] Yes, they are. I don't like those kind of black people. Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't like them.

John Dehlin [05:25:26] Also, Candace Owens.

Rachel Weaver [05:25:27] Yeah, I don't talk with them. I don't communicate with those black people. I walk away from them because I'm not wasting my breath on media social. Someone who you're trying. At the end of the day, you want to appease white people. And that will never happen because you're still a black person to them. In their secret hallways, they are still going to call you the N word. So you fighting to be this person you will never become in their eyes. It's stupid to me.

Nate Byrd [05:25:46] Clarence Thomas, Ahmad Corbett, Candace Owens, Kwaku, all of them have sacrificed their. They've sacrificed their identities for acceptance, you know, and. And they've, you know, they. Yeah, they've sacrificed parts of their identities in order to be accepted in certain circles. And if that works for you, then fine. But that does not work for the majority of people. Not all of us are able to give up our identity in order to be accepted by a group of people that will never accept us. So I'll just leave it at that.

John Dehlin [05:26:22] So maybe. Last question. We framed this about BYU. So a young 17, 18 year old black Mormon woman comes to you and says, should I go to byu? Do you have a clear cut answer there?

Rachel Weaver [05:26:33] No.

John Dehlin [05:26:34] No what?

Rachel Weaver [05:26:35] Do not go.

John Dehlin [05:26:35] Really now, with the church. You said you might not tell a single mom to not join. It sounds like it's a lot more clear cut about a young woman attending. A young black woman attending byu. Why?

Rachel Weaver [05:26:48] Multiple things. Number one, if you're a black young person who wants to stay faithful, do not attend this school. This school will tear. The school will tear. Tear down your faith faster than anything else. Through the interactions I've had in the way that the institution has interacted with me, that's number one. If you want to stay faithful, don't come here and you can get a great college experience at other universities and still like experience your faith in other ways without having to be around a bunch of LDF people. If you grew up with not a lot of LDS people, you probably not going to like that shit because I didn't. You know what I mean? Like you think you might like it, but you're really not. And so that's why that would be my answer. I think you can be faithful in lots of other ways and BYU has damaged that. And it's something that I will never be able to like that will never go out of my memory. And so I think if that's what something someone really wants to still stay in the church, then definitely don't come here. And I think, yeah, that's the main thing. Like you can get a great education somewhere else and a black normal student has else with a no. Because there's no benefit of you coming to this school if you're not lds. To me, especially if you're black, you're giving yourself like a double eyesore of like you're not LDS and you're black. At least if you're black, it's like, well, you can try to opt in with the LDS culture and make it work, but it's just not worth it. The amount of trauma and pain that I've experienced could have been avoided at a different university like Spelman. Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:28:14] Have you thought about grad school to have a corrective university experience?

Rachel Weaver [05:28:17] I have thought about grad school. We'll see. I don't know. HBCUs don't really offer what I'm trying to go into, so I couldn't really do it in that way.

John Dehlin [05:28:25] But what's that? What are you trying to do?

Rachel Weaver [05:28:27] I think I want to get like my master's degree. Not a lot of schools offer it some type of degree in like diversity, equity, inclusion with. On like on the corporate side because there is one like that has it in higher education. But I think I want to get it on the corporate side specifically so I can stay climbing the corporate ladder. I will be now that I will be a. I will be a token for money. BYU is not paying me though. I'm joking guys. But I'm low key serious. Like yeah, I'm gonna, I'm trying to stay on the corporate side just cause you know, I am first gen and I've got a lot of financial goals that I need to achieve and corporate America's Gonna help me do that.

Nate Byrd [05:29:03] That.

Rachel Weaver [05:29:03] So I will say what I need to say.

John Dehlin [05:29:04] Wait, didn't you say f capitalism? Didn't you say that just a few minutes ago?

Rachel Weaver [05:29:07] I know it's. It all exists. I'm trying to win the system I was put in. That's how I feel. But the people at the top are saying, keep it going. So what am I going to do? Yeah, I got to keep it going. I'm only a little man, and I'm a black woman at that. I can't fight all the battles. I can have my feelings, but I can't put all my energy into them.

John Dehlin [05:29:27] Nate, what do you want to say about the. What Rachel has meant to you in your life in terms of just as a friend and as a Tinder?

Rachel Weaver [05:29:34] You're gonna make me cry. I'm very sentimental.

Nate Byrd [05:29:38] Yeah. I mean, just as a friend. Like, it honestly, life changing, like, being able to connect with people like Rachel, Sebastian, Kylie, Kennethia was really, really life changing for me. I was struggling a lot. And we've all taken talked about this before, how all of us were struggling in different ways. And, like, being able to come together and have a way to just kind of express our shared experience was very healing for all of us. So I would say that my relationship with Rachel has included a lot of, like, joy, a lot of healing, a lot of happiness, and, yeah, it's been great.

John Dehlin [05:30:19] What are your fruits? Three favorite traits of Rachel's.

Nate Byrd [05:30:23] Three favorite traits.

Rachel Weaver [05:30:27] I'm laughing because of our experiences together. I'm just like, oh, my gosh, what's he gonna say?

Nate Byrd [05:30:31] One thing I love about Rachel is that she is bold, not afraid to say exactly what's on her mind, and just be completely honest with you, like, about no matter what it is. And if you're out of line, then she'll let you know. I don't remember what it was. I had said something, and Rachel was like, nate, you need to stop saying that. That's not funny. And I was like, oh, she's right. It's not funny. And I haven't said it since.

Rachel Weaver [05:30:51] Right, I'm sorry.

Nate Byrd [05:30:54] Yeah, so things like that just, you know, keeping you honest. Another trait love about Rachel is her ability to express herself. Right. You have a great way of just getting your points across. And finally, man, great sense of humor. Always, always a good time with Rachel.

John Dehlin [05:31:12] That's true.

Nate Byrd [05:31:13] Always laughing.

Rachel Weaver [05:31:13] I'm gonna keep you laughing.

John Dehlin [05:31:14] She's agreeing with you, Nate.

Rachel Weaver [05:31:17] No, it's true. I like to joke. I come from a very jokey family, like we're cutting up all the time. A lot of banter. So I'm always trying to make something like, lots of loud. Loud. Oh, my gosh. If you. If you ever see me and my brother together in public, I'm sorry, because. Wow, us two together is quite a show. And all the Weaver, good luck. Luck.

John Dehlin [05:31:40] All right, well, Nate, thanks so much for helping make this happen and for co hosting today. It's been great to have you.

Nate Byrd [05:31:48] Yeah, thanks for having me back. It was an honor to be here.

John Dehlin [05:31:50] And go Black Menaces.

Rachel Weaver [05:31:52] Yes.

Nate Byrd [05:31:53] Yes, indeed.

John Dehlin [05:31:53] And Rachel, Rachel Weaver, thank you so much. You've been a light to so many people. I share everything Nate said. You've got this kind of like, happy, spicy, fun, warrior personality where you're fighting for truth, but in a way that just makes people smile. And I think that's a real gift. So it's a pleasure to get to know you a little bit. I love what you've done for my people, for our people, for humanity. And I just can't wait to see other good things you do, if not for humanity, just for yourself, because you deserve good things. And thank you for spending five and a half hours to share your story on Mormon stories. You shouldn't need to do this, but we're all going to be better off because you were generous enough to take the time to not only share your story, but to educate us. So on behalf of all of us, thank you.

Rachel Weaver [05:32:53] Thank you. Now, thank you for having me. I'm just glad I got to share just my life. I feel like it's a little unique in certain ways, and so I wanted to come on here to just highlight the different ways in which black people experience things in the church, because it's just not talked about as much. And. Yeah, I just think it's a rough time and an interesting intersex that I've had to deal with up to this point in my life. So somebody gonna hear about it.

John Dehlin [05:33:21] Well, good luck. And will you come back? Will you stay in touch and come back?

Rachel Weaver [05:33:24] Yes, I will.

John Dehlin [05:33:25] All right. And again, plug Black Menaces.

Rachel Weaver [05:33:29] Our podcast is just the Black Menace podcast. Everywhere that you get a podcast, it releases every single Wednesday. And we release episodes as well on YouTube. The videos. Yeah.

Nate Byrd [05:33:39] And then follow us on Black Menaces on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. I think that's about it.

Rachel Weaver [05:33:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:33:45] And if folks want to donate to support your podcast, how can they do that?

Rachel Weaver [05:33:49] So we have a donor box, right?

Nate Byrd [05:33:51] Yeah. On the website. Oh, yeah. The black menaces.org Go to blackministers.org yes,

Rachel Weaver [05:33:55] if you want to get to our donor box. If you do want to donate. Yes. Go to the blackministers.org and the donor box link is on there.

Nate Byrd [05:34:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:34:01] Is it black menaces.org or the black

Nate Byrd [05:34:03] menaces.org the black menaces.org.

John Dehlin [05:34:05] okay.

Rachel Weaver [05:34:05] Yep.

Nate Byrd [05:34:06] So the black menaces.org. yeah, we have a donor box on there. We don't get paid. Right. This is, you know, we do all the videos and stuff like that, all the editing, all the podcast stuff. We do that just on our own time.

Rachel Weaver [05:34:17] Yep.

Nate Byrd [05:34:17] So any donations that you can do, like, monthly to help us with that would be amazing. And, yeah, we want to keep Black Menaces going for as long as possible and keep making change and interviewing people, all that good stuff. So help us out.

John Dehlin [05:34:31] All right. Thanks, Rachel.

Rachel Weaver [05:34:32] Yes, thank you.

John Dehlin [05:34:33] Take care.

Rachel Weaver [05:34:34] Yes, you too.

John Dehlin [05:34:35] Thanks, Nate. And thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Please do support the Black Menaces and please share this episode with as many people as you possibly can. Please subscribe to us on YouTube, the YouTube channel. Also follow us and subscribe to us on Facebook. And again, we try and chop all this stuff up and release it on shorts, on Facebook, on Instagram, on TikTok. And so subscribing to us and following us in all those places really helps with the algorithms, and just spreading the word helps with word of mouth. Normally, I would plug donations to Mormon Stories Stories, but today I want you to channel your donations to these guys. So check out theblackmenaces.org and become a monthly donor to their good work. Thanks to Maven and to everyone behind the scenes, Julia, Brooklyn, Gerardo, that make the Open Stories foundation possible, along with our board of directors and our donors. We couldn't do it without you. So thanks for all the support. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Black lives do matter. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.