Introducing Nate Winterton and Today's Guests

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Dr. John Dehlin. It is November 21, 2021. It happens to be Trans Awareness Week, and we are super, super honored and excited to have with us today Nate Winterton on Mormon Stories podcast. Hey, Nate.

Nate Winterton [00:00:19] Hi, John. Thanks for having me. I'm excited.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] Yeah, Nate is an Instagram force. You're also on TikTok and I'm sure lots of other platforms. What happened this week makes me believe in sort of a secular Holy Ghost or somehow. We have been working with Nate for months to have Nate on Mormon Stories podcast and various things have made it. So it got scheduled for this week. But what you'll hear about Nate's story, Nate's Mormon story is all about Nate's story growing up and serving a mission and being in the church and also dealing with what was described to Nate as same sex attraction and that sort of thing. Nate identifies as gender non binary. Nate uses they them pronouns. So there's going to be a lot of really important storytelling today. But one of the things that was that was most kind of alarming and shocking about Nate's story is that Nate did experience electroshock therapy as an attempt to change their sexual orientation about four or five years ago. And Nate was referred to electroshock therapy, but by their bishop. And I'm using they them pronouns because as, as someone who identifies as gender non binary, Nate uses they them pronouns. And the reason why I invoke secular Holy Ghost is because we just this week happened to do an episode on Dallin H. Oaks's recent comments at the University of Virginia where Elder Oaks claimed that during Elder Oaks administration, no electroshock therapy took place while Elder Oaks was president of byu, which we know is absolutely false and untrue. And we covered that with Kyle Ashworth and Gerardo and Colin o' Donovan just a few days ago. But it was like, miracle of miracles, what are the chances that we would have a guest on Mormon Stories podcast the same week that Elder Oaks told what amounts to a lie or an untruth about electroshock therapy? The same date that we had scheduled somebody to tell us about experiencing electroshock therapy as a Mormon human just, just within the past five years. And that is going to be a gripping part of Nate's story, along with lots of other cool things. So that's what you are in store for today. And Nate, what did I leave out?

Nate Winterton [00:02:35] You got it, I think. I didn't even think about it, but it's definitely True. It proves to me that there's something out there. Higher that Elder Oaks makes that comment on Trans Awareness Week plus, because if we keep having to reschedule, just do different things, like it landed on this Week, on this day.

Guest [00:02:53] It's.

Nate Winterton [00:02:54] It's. It feels very, like, grounded and like that. This interview is meant to be this week and this day.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] Yeah. Well, we're thrilled and we're very lucky to be joined by Kara Burrell.

Guest [00:03:05] Oh, hey, Kara.

John Dehlin [00:03:06] Thanks for joining us on a Sunday morning.

Guest [00:03:07] Yeah, no problem.

John Dehlin [00:03:08] It's good to see you.

Guest [00:03:10] Good morning.

Nate Winterton [00:03:11] It's great to stay up late. Yeah.

Guest [00:03:12] That's what I was thinking coming in this morning.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] What's that?

Guest [00:03:14] That's what I was thinking coming in this morning. I was like, it's great. I love this.

Nate Winterton [00:03:17] Yes.

Guest [00:03:18] And, Nate, you look fabulous, by the way.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:20] Thank you. Beautiful.

Nate Winterton [00:03:21] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] And we hear a fourth voice today. We have with us Margi, the Margi Delin. Hey, Margi. Hello. Why are you here today?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:32] I'm here because Nate's here.

John Dehlin [00:03:36] Yeah. Months and months and months ago. Margi's like, you need to interview Nate. And I'm like, nate? Tell me more about Nate. So this is. This is important to you?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:44] Yes. I rarely do that. Right.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] Yeah. Almost never.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:47] Almost never.

John Dehlin [00:03:50] Yeah. What was it about Nate. What was it about Nate that made you feel so strongly?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:54] If you could summarize it, so many things I feel. I mean, I think I First, I. I can't. I was thinking this morning how I first came across you, and I was.

Nate Winterton [00:04:07] Remember, I don't think I found you somehow, maybe. Because I love your posts of just, like. Like, grounding and nesting and like, just almost like. I don't know. They almost feel like a journal entry. And I love. I don't know, you're. When I go to your page or see your post or something, it's like. Almost like a warm hug. Oh, yeah. And I was like, I have to follow her. Right.

Guest [00:04:31] Great way to describe it.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:32] Oh. So maybe that was how we. But I remember listening to Terrible. Thanks for asking. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:40] Which is a podcast episode, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:42] That's right. And so I. I really recommend that interview as well.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] It's a. Yeah. That's the name of a podcast where Nate is interviewed.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:52] That's right.

Nate Winterton [00:04:53] It's a funny name, but it's a good one.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:55] It is a great.

Nate Winterton [00:04:56] Everyone has a terrible.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:57] That's right. And isn't it around grief? I kind of feel like it's a podcast kind of centered around grief. So I think I First was introduced, but then when I looked at your Instagram, I just. I don't know, I fell in love with you. I just. It's. I think this mixture of great vulnerability, great beauty, great wisdom, great pain at times, and this humor. You have this also this sense of humor and this, like, light about you. And so it's this. It's all the things of humanity that I think it's hard on an Instagram platform, let alone in life to meet a human that is so fully embodied. And so. And I think I got a little mama bear as well, where I was just like, I love you. I want to be one of your people. I want to make sure you know how amazing you are. So anyway, that I feel like that. That is kind of what brought me to this place and to telling you about Nate. Thank you.

Nate Winterton [00:06:01] That means a lot to me. Wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:03] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:06:04] So, Nate, you got the Margi endorsement, which is.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:07] Wow.

Nate Winterton [00:06:08] That was the best complimen but I've ever had. It was beautiful. Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [00:06:13] Well, Mar you, we're always very happy to have you in studio. Thanks for coming.

Nate Winterton [00:06:17] And Kara in the back, too. We got the whole fan.

John Dehlin [00:06:19] Yeah. And Clara. Yeah, Clara. My daughter Clara is here. Hey, Clara.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:23] That's right.

Guest [00:06:25] She just went like this. Let me just do it for you.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:28] That's right.

Growing Up Adopted in a Mormon Family

John Dehlin [00:06:31] All right, Nate. Well, where does your Mormon story begin?

Nate Winterton [00:06:35] Ooh, good question. Well, I was adopted, and so that's how it began. I'm adopted in a sibling set of three. So it's me and two older sisters.

John Dehlin [00:06:47] They were biological siblings. Oh, wow.

Nate Winterton [00:06:49] Which is rare, I've been told. I don't know. But I was born really early. My birth mother was a drug addict, an alcoholic, and all around great gal. That's sarcasm, by the way. But I was born really early and really sick. I was born without an esophagus and without the ability to taste. My taste buds didn't work and my nerves didn't work. So until I was five, I had a feeding tube because I was too weak and young to swallow food. And so for my first five years, I lived at Primary Children's on and off. That's how I learned my Alphabet, because it's all painted on the walls.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] And so you were adopted at what age?

Nate Winterton [00:07:36] I was. It was technically finalized the day I was born.

John Dehlin [00:07:39] Okay.

Nate Winterton [00:07:40] But legally, the judge was like, he's yours, even in that wound.

John Dehlin [00:07:44] So your. Your parents that you would call parents now, they were the ones that were taking care of you for five years?

Nate Winterton [00:07:50] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] In and out of the hospital.

Nate Winterton [00:07:52] They're the ones who made sure I lived and made sure that I had the energy to fight. They fought with me, and they taught me how to be a warrior, I think.

John Dehlin [00:08:05] Yeah. Beautiful. Okay. That's powerful. That deserves its own podcast.

Nate Winterton [00:08:10] I'm sure they're badasses. I know when my mom was here, she really wanted to write a book about it because it was just a crazy court case. Because in total, there's 16 children, but only five of them survived. The rest passed away because of abuse

John Dehlin [00:08:25] from these biological parents. And so was it in Utah, do you know? Okay.

Nate Winterton [00:08:31] All in, like, Salt Lake County. Oh, in good old. I think it was Magna, or the border of Magna, which. I mean, Magna, you know, doesn't have the best water. So. But yeah, so. And then I got that, and I learned how to taste and learned nerves. I went to special therapies for it, special doctors. And then at age 5, I was the first kid in the state of Utah to have that surgery to get it. To get an esophagus, a fake esophagus. And, yeah, it was interesting because even in kindergarten, I was kind of bullied a lot because I was really small, because I didn't get normal nutrients. And so I was just called all sorts of things and everything like that and made fun of because, like, I had a feeding tube sticking out of my stomach through my shirt. And so I tried to layer it and hide it, but that's kind of. Also. At the same time, I recognized that I was gay in preschool at Ms. Nan's preschool in Salt Lake City, who. I still love her to this day. She's like Betty Crocker personified. I think

Margi Dehlin [00:09:45] she.

Nate Winterton [00:09:47] There was a boy in my class, his name was Carlos, and I just thought he was so cute. And I didn't know what gay was at the time. You know, I was four. But he had this beautiful, like, curly, like, almost Afro, and was just like. I don't know, we hung out all the time. And I was like, oh, that's different. You know? And so that's when I first recognized that. That I was gay. And also just my really early years, I just focused on staying alive, basically. Okay, so that's where it starts. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:19] And were you raised as a Mormon kid?

Nate Winterton [00:10:21] Yeah, I was raised Mormon. My mom was a convert, and so is her family. She's from La Jolla, California, in San Diego County.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] Not a bad area.

Nate Winterton [00:10:31] Not a bad area at all. It's funny. Cause she lived really close to the Mormon Temple. But her. She has one aunt and one uncle. And they're very strict Presbyterians, and they despise Mormons, but they live, like a block away from this San Diego temple because they liked the area. It was a clean area. And so that's the only thing they like about Mormons, is that they're very clean and they know how to keep things pristine. And so they're like, yeah, I guess we can deal with living near that. But she's a convert, and she converted in her junior year, high school years with her family. And then my dad's family has been Mormon since it was founded. Pioneer, Pioneer ancestry. On his mom's side, they moved over from England and was one of those that got baptized over there. And then on his dad's side, they were like, right there in the center of it all. Handcart companies, the whole nine yards.

John Dehlin [00:11:33] Let me ask you, one of the things that we really are struggling with as a society still is to separate sexual identity from gender identity 100%. And even, you know, I even studying psychology, only until recent years have I even started to start to understand that gender identity is just a completely separate thing. You talk about feeling attracted to boys when you were little. Can you talk at all about your gender identity awareness? If there was any of you kind of feeling?

Nate Winterton [00:12:07] Yeah, thank you for that question. I've never been asked that, and I think that it's a really good question. I didn't recognize anything with my gender. I always have been way more in touch with my feminine side. And growing up, I was always really bullied for it. I loved musicals, and I mean, my number one artist growing up was Barbra Streisand. I just, like, loved femininity. I was drawn to it, and I didn't know what to label that as. I actually came out earlier this year as non binary, and I knew it for these past couple years. But before that, I just suppressed my femininity whenever I could because I was just bullied for it when I was in the closet. And then in my early years of being gay, I was bullied by the gay community because they have their own stereotypes of mask for mask. And what does that mean, mask for mask? It means they want to look straight, passing. So, like, muscular, strong jaw, facial hair. Sometimes facial hair, no feminine voice. Like, you can't have a high voice. You have to basically be fully like, no one would ever guess that you would be gay. And that's like the ideal gay stereotype.

John Dehlin [00:13:32] Does that mean masculine as a mask

Nate Winterton [00:13:34] or am I. Yeah, masculine as a mask. It's just shortened.

John Dehlin [00:13:37] Okay. I've never heard that before.

Nate Winterton [00:13:39] Yeah, it's a thing. And I'm just not in that box either.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] So, like, when I think, like, this is totally stereotypical, but, like, Village People in the Sevent.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:48] Like a construction worker.

Nate Winterton [00:13:49] That's massive.

John Dehlin [00:13:50] Policeman and a fireman.

Nate Winterton [00:13:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:53] Beautician, you know.

Nate Winterton [00:13:54] Yeah. They didn't have, like, the. The interior designer on set for that one.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] No, they didn't. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for being.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:06] Can I ask a quick question? Yeah, Margi, I have a quick question. Just, like, as you're talking about your early. Just your beginning, do you. You know, I'm curious about what you remember about your experience as, like, a young human in the world. Do you. Do you feel like you had a time ever that you didn't feel like you were fighting? You know, on some level, I feel like you were, like, born in this position of fighting when a lot of us at least had a pocket, maybe, or let's say some of us, maybe not a lot, but, like, some of us had a pocket of safety, maybe, or a pocket of just being, you know, that we can kind of recall or, you know, when you think back on your beginnings, what do you remember? Do you remember feeling like this is hard? Like, this living thing is hard? Yeah.

Childhood Depression, Health, and Church Life

Nate Winterton [00:15:03] I've had depression almost my whole life. I was diagnosed with it when I was in elementary school. And for me, I think the only time I really kind of felt that, like, that cocoon, that safety, was when I did theater as a little kid. I was able to go into this role and this whole imaginary land and just escape. And I think for me, it was definitely the arts. I was able to just run away into this fantasy land. And it was something I needed because, like, in elementary school, I was really bullied by kids, and junior high, I was bullied, and high school, I was bullied. And so when I was on a stage or if I was, like, painting or doing something with the arts, I could just zone out and be by myself and. And have that safety net.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:05] Yeah, thank you. I can see that.

John Dehlin [00:16:08] Do you remember attending primary and Boy Scouts or any of that stuff?

Nate Winterton [00:16:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:14] And what you thought about it? I. Soccer meeting.

Nate Winterton [00:16:17] Hated Boy Scouts. I did it because I so, like, I hate the feel of grass. Even to this day, I just hate it. And, like, I. I'm not a nature person. I prefer, like, if we're gonna, like, have a weekend of relaxation, I'll go to a spa, get, like, a hydro facial, and then maybe go to the Movie theaters. I'm not gonna go.

John Dehlin [00:16:39] Wait, was there a hydrofacial maribadge in Cub Scouts?

Nate Winterton [00:16:42] I wish. I would have gotten, like, five of em. That'd been amazing. No. And I just didn't really fit in with the boys. So, like, whenever I tried to do, like, Scouts and stuff, I kind of felt like an outsider. Like, I was really trying really hard to get, like, along with them and bond. But all my friends growing up were girls. I had like, a giant group of friends that were girls. All the girls in the neighborhood. My parents joked that it was Nathan's little harem. And because they would just come over every day and be like, can Nathan play? And, like, when I went to Scouts, it was just. I didn't know how to play with them. I grew up with only sisters. And then I was like, what do I do with these dudes?

John Dehlin [00:17:24] You know, I'm waiting for a Caraberell joke now. After.

Guest [00:17:28] After Nick, I have nothing.

Nate Winterton [00:17:32] And then primary, I loved. I was obsessed with primary. I. I loved the singing. My favorite hymn was the. That one that goes like, heavenly Father. Oh, are you really there?

Margi Dehlin [00:17:44] That's right.

Nate Winterton [00:17:45] I loved that one. I sing it all the time. I had.

John Dehlin [00:17:48] What'd you love about it?

Nate Winterton [00:17:50] I loved the melody, but I also. I loved the story it tells. I love that it's someone asking if God is really there, and if you are, can you just be there for me? I found that really beautiful, and it resonated with me a lot.

John Dehlin [00:18:06] Did you have feel like you had that type of relationship with Heavenly Father where he would. Where you would speak and he would listen, answer your prayers, comfort you?

Margi Dehlin [00:18:16] Yes.

Nate Winterton [00:18:17] I was a really spiritual kid. I never met my mom's dad, but I always talked to him in prayer. Just in elementary school. No one told me to. I just wanted to talk to him, feel his spirit. And that helped me find a testimony at the time to pray to God and to read my scriptures and watch scripture stories and veggietales, and it really. Primary songs really built my testimony for the time I was growing up, since I was really little. And I just loved primary. Whenever I could, I was that kid that would bear their testimony. The first time I bore my testimony in sacrament, I was, like, begging my mom to let me go up alone for the first time. And I had this all planned. I was like, please, please, please, please. And she finally let me. So I go up there and I tell a joke. I don't do a testimony because I really wanted, like, people to look at me. And so I Was like, how did the frog get over the log? And I waited till the congregation would respond to me and I was like, just to get to the other side, I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen. And my mom and dad were just like, Jesus Christ. Like, why did my child just do this? They were so embarrassed.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:36] And you were like, that's for you.

Nate Winterton [00:19:37] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:19:40] You just got a 10 from a professional comedian.

Nate Winterton [00:19:43] Good, right? I was like, such a great joke. Such a good joke.

Guest [00:19:46] I wanted to ask if you had. I can imagine growing up in a very LDS home with all of these health concerns. Was there any like direct tie that your family made? Like, Nate is a special spirit that's come to earth and his body is working and like your faith in the church was very much directly tied to what was going on with your body and that God spent, you know, in the pre earth life. I've heard a lot of people being like, Satan's trying to get this one. But we got him. We adopted him into a Mormon family.

Nate Winterton [00:20:11] I was told that so many times.

Guest [00:20:12] Yeah. So what was your experience? Like that.

Nate Winterton [00:20:14] Yeah. I love that you ask. You guys ask great questions. Yeah. I was constantly told, you're a really special spirit. You were chosen by God specially. You are such a fighter. He's keeping you around to do something special when you grow up.

Guest [00:20:35] Right.

Nate Winterton [00:20:36] God is really with you. You're going to be such a great missionary for him throughout your life. Like my parents told me that. My grandparents told me that aunts, uncles, like all of them were just like, you are saved by God and you're going to do great things for his church. Like, they just really thought I was really special because I survived a lot when I was as a newborn. Wow. Nail on the coffin.

Guest [00:21:03] Yeah. And then what kind of pressure did it feel like that put on you? Seriously, that you have certain things you have to do now.

Nate Winterton [00:21:08] It created me. It, it almost like it made me a perfectionist. I was terrified to do anything wrong in the church's eyes, specifically God's. I was like, I, I was like devout to the church, but I was really, I have like diagnosed ocd. So I was like hyper fixate on making sure that like God was okay with me and that I was doing what he wanted and that I was like a rule follower. So I wanted to make sure that my rules were being followed to make him proud. And, and so it definitely like put this thing on me that like I should be like a holier than thou person, even from just elementary school. And so it was interesting for listeners

John Dehlin [00:21:52] who are kind of newer to Mormon stories that the term of religious OCD is called scrupulosity, and we've covered that quite a bit on Mormon Stories. So if you. If. If you're like, whoa, I didn't know religious OCD was a thing. It's a thing. It's very prevalent within Mormonism. And you can just go to the Mormon Stories website, search on scrupulosity. We've got several episodes about that. It's not fun.

Nate Winterton [00:22:15] No, it is not fun. It kind of. With your brain. Excuse my language.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:19] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [00:22:22] Because I was just, like. Even for a little kid, I was like, okay, I'm really special, but I don't get why I'm special. Just because I was like. I just felt like a. A normal kid. Because for me, like, taking care of my health concerns as a kid was just my normal. So I was like, why is this special? Like, I'm just an a. Like I'm just a person. I was like, God didn't save me or save my sisters from, like, Jesus. From Satan, you know, to come to Jesus. It just. It's just a thing that happened. And I'm grateful that the universe aligned it, but at the same time, like, maybe this is tmi, and hopefully my mom's okay with me sharing this, but when she was 16, she came home from a date, and she was really sad because it was a horrible date and she was crying in her bed, and she was scared that she was never gonna get married and never have kids. And she had a prayer and she prayed, and three little kid heads, like, popped into her. Into her mind, and it was me and my two sisters. And then when, like, my parents were trying to adopt because they couldn't have their own kids, they saw my two sisters, and she was like, oh, my God. Like, you know, literally, that's the ones that were shown to me. And so I believe that, like, us three were chosen for my parents, but I don't think it was because we were, like, more better or more special than anyone else to be a part of the church.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] Wow. Okay, so should we go into middle school and high school and kind of how your Mormon story progresses?

Bullying and Struggles Through Middle and High School

Nate Winterton [00:24:08] Yeah, let's do it. Middle school. I mean, who loves middle school? No one.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:13] Right?

Nate Winterton [00:24:14] You're all awkward in our hormones and pimples. And what sucks is that because, like, seventh grade, I had the best skin. And then eighth grade came around, and it was like Temple city. It was like constellations on my forehead. It was crazy. And I in Junior high, I was bullied really bad. I have a naturally higher voice, and at that time, I had an even higher voice, and I was really skinny because at that time I was struggling with an eating disorder. And so in eighth grade, I was 4, 11 and 95 pounds. And so I was just.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] There's literally that term 95 pound weakling, I think.

Nate Winterton [00:24:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:56] Like, when I grew up, I've heard it. Yeah.

Nate Winterton [00:25:00] And I was in theater, so it was like a double whammy. And so I was just bullied a lot. And in ninth grade, it got really bad that a Facebook hate page was created about me by the football team, and it was called Nathan Winterton's a Fag, Let's Murder Him. And middle school or high school? Middle school. It was in ninth grade, which. Willow Creek Middle School in Lehigh. Utah.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] Utah County.

Nate Winterton [00:25:28] Utah county. Born and raised. I was raised in Lehigh, and I didn't know about it because I wasn't really a social media person at the time. My friend Morgan came up to me and told me. And so, like, we reported it and got it taken down. And the worst punishment that the three boys who started it got were a day. That one day they couldn't go to school. And that was their punishment. They just couldn't go to school for one day. Which sounds more like a reward, but. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] What was that like for you?

Nate Winterton [00:26:01] It was humiliating. It was terrifying because one of them, like, lived on my block. And I was so scared because, like, I was reading through the comments before I told anyone, and it was just so much hate and so much homophobia. Like, they were just. It was just, like, homophobic slurs all the time in the comment section. And they really, I don't know, were threatened or, like, hated me for some reason specifically. And they. They were letting it be known.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] It was, you know, if these kids were lds.

Nate Winterton [00:26:35] Yeah. All three of them, they were in my steak. Oh, wow. Yeah. All in my steak. One in my ward. Yeah. You know, but then they pass a sacrament.

Guest [00:26:46] That's what I was about to say. One that's like, passing the sacrament. Probably have this Facebook page going.

Nate Winterton [00:26:50] Exactly. Because they're. They're really holy. Good guys, you know.

Guest [00:26:54] Damn.

John Dehlin [00:26:54] I'm so sorry.

Nate Winterton [00:26:56] It was horrible. And that's why, like, I hated junior high. And so the summer between junior high and high school, I was on Facebook and I saw an ad for a private school and that does kindergarten to 12th grade, and it's called Liahona Preparatory Academy.

John Dehlin [00:27:14] Sounds Mormon.

Nate Winterton [00:27:15] It's very Mormon. Our mascot was Captain Moroni. Oh, we had, we had a mural, a giant mural of him painted on our, on our wall.

John Dehlin [00:27:24] Is this in Lehi?

Nate Winterton [00:27:25] This was in Pleasant Grove. Okay. And our colors were BYU colors. Anyone who applied there at like as a senior to get into BYU got into byu. We were the first I school in Utah, so everyone had iPads each year. It was like a really good education. But the reason I was so intrigued by the ad is because they had an anti bullying policy. If you bullied at all, you were. You were removed from the school. You can't attend anymore. And so I applied and then got an interview because you have. It's a private school, so you have to go through a couple interviews to get in. And I got on a scholarship to go there, which I was really grateful for by explaining my story. I was like, this is why I want to come here. Please let me come, Please. I want to go to public school for high school. And I got in and it was. Looking back, it was kind of, it's kind of weird to think about because in first period we had an opening prayer and last year we had a closing prayer. And then some of our English essays were based off of general conference talks or scriptures. And we would read scriptures in class. And our history class, it was integrated with Book of Mormon history book with regular history about how the Americas were made. And it was like a full on thing. And so for me in high school, I was like, this is amazing. I was like, I was just like, yeah, this is the truth, you know, like this is like exactly like how it all worked. Even though for me I was still kind of confused about the timelines of everything and plus the procreation. Like I don't get how you'd have wars with like hundreds of thousands of people. And then I was like, but you

John Dehlin [00:29:13] mean the Book of Mormon?

Nate Winterton [00:29:14] Yeah, like, I was just so confused with like how there are so many people but then they all die, but then they were all able to procreate so fast, you know, just like through like scripture history, even in the Bible. I was just like, how does this work so fast? I was like, I was like, I don't think that's a thing. But yeah, high school was pretty average. It was just very Mormon. You know, everyone I was surrounded with was with Mormon. I mean, our mascot was capped, Moroni. And we read scriptures in class and all those things.

Navigating Same-Sex Attraction and Church Teachings

John Dehlin [00:29:46] What about the church's teachings around same sex sexuality, gender identity, proclamation on the family? How were you experiencing those teachings as you were, you know, experiencing puberty? And coming into adolescence and young adulthood,

Nate Winterton [00:30:01] I was avoiding them. That's the best way. I was disassociating and avoiding because I, I heard things and I heard the comments and like all those things, and I was just like, well, I recognize that I am same sex attraction, but I don't want to listen to their comments. I don't want to hear those type of things. And so because like, I hear obviously growing up people being like, oh, like, how gay is a sin? And like, it's such a choice. And if someone really believed in God, they wouldn't choose to live that lifestyle. And so for me, I just avoided the church comments as much as possible. And I never read the proclamation to the family, not once in my whole life, because I just knew that it would really irk me the wrong way. So I was like, yeah, I'm not going to read it. And during high school time, it was interesting because, like, I had crushes on boys in school and stuff, but I, like had to avoid it. So then I would just hang out with girls all the time instead. And

John Dehlin [00:31:15] did you ever have a beard? Beard or two?

Nate Winterton [00:31:17] In high school? Yes, in high school I had a

John Dehlin [00:31:19] couple tell our listeners what beards are.

Nate Winterton [00:31:21] Oh, yeah. So beards. If no one knows, it's not the stuff on your face.

John Dehlin [00:31:26] In this context.

Nate Winterton [00:31:27] Yeah, in this context. I mean, it could. If they kiss you hard enough. Kidding. But a beard is you specifically, it's designated for like a gay male presenting person to date a straight girl to distract people and make them believe that they are straight. And so in high school, I had two girlfriends. The first one, it was just for a week and I ended it because she was texting me. I was in science class and she was out hall in the bathroom and she was texting me a lot. She's like, please come out here. I have something to tell you. I have something to tell you. So I finally, like excused myself to go to the restroom and she slammed me against the wall and like, kissed me. Because she was just. She was. She had a lot of hormones and I didn't have those hormones for her.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:16] And you were all the rage, Nate.

Nate Winterton [00:32:18] Apparently to her. I don't know why.

Guest [00:32:20] She wanted to be upgraded in your harem, literally.

Nate Winterton [00:32:23] She wanted to be the number one harem lady.

John Dehlin [00:32:26] First wife, they call it.

Nate Winterton [00:32:27] First wife. Yes. She was my first. She was my Emma Smith. I'm gonna hate it. And I was like. She kissed me. I was like, oh, damn. Like, like, it, like, was so cringe factor. I was like, this is disgusting. I was like, this is so gross.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:45] Don't ever.

Nate Winterton [00:32:46] I was like, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:47] I was like, so you experienced aversion.

Nate Winterton [00:32:50] I know, right? Yeah, yeah, I really did. It just grossed me out. I was like, this isn't attractive at all.

John Dehlin [00:32:57] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [00:32:57] And in my brain I recognized that, like. Oh. Like I pictured like, at that time sometimes I viewed gay porn and I was like, oh, at that time, like, I felt those things about guys, I didn't feel them about her. And then I had a second one, a long distance girlfriend, and she lived in Maryland.

John Dehlin [00:33:13] Safer.

Nate Winterton [00:33:14] Very, very safe, you know, because you guys can chat all the time and we like, texted all the time. But it was like a friendship to me. You. And we bonded a lot because our moms were both sick and we just had a big bond. And then she surprised me for my senior year and my. With my parents and they flew her out to stay in our guest room and come to senior prom with me. And we didn't kiss her anything, but we held hands and, like, hugged. It was like, very innocent. And she. She's told me now. She was like, yeah, I knew even from then you were gay. Which sometimes I get offended by it, but I recognize why. I had a dolphin CTR ring. Okay. And then I had this lamp on my bedside table. And this lamp is. It's just so gay. It's like. It's just like gay times 10 because it was like from Target and it had metal rims and then it had silver disco, like mini disco balls going down. Because I was obsessed with like, the seven. I still am. I love the 70s and 60s and

John Dehlin [00:34:16] like, I saw Bee Gees on your outline.

Guest [00:34:19] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:19] Okay, we appreciate that.

John Dehlin [00:34:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nate Winterton [00:34:24] I love the Bee Gees. Beach Boys. Karen Carpenter. Donna Summers.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:30] Yep.

Nate Winterton [00:34:30] Donna. Which one were you reacting to when I said that?

Guest [00:34:33] Oh, Karen Carpenter.

Nate Winterton [00:34:35] Yeah. Have you heard her version of Desperado?

Guest [00:34:37] Probably.

Nate Winterton [00:34:38] It's beautiful.

Guest [00:34:39] That's what I hope heaven is. It's just headphones of Karen Carpenter and I just like, sink into a cloud

Nate Winterton [00:34:43] and just bob into her. I love her. And like, then I really, like, in high school, junior high, I was obsessed with, like, crooners. So like Elvis and Frank Sinatra. I had a huge crush on Elvis.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:54] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [00:34:54] I didn't realize it at the time that it was. I thought it was just an infatuation, but it was like, I had a crush on Elvis Presley. He's my first, like, celebrity crush, which I think is funny because he's like, old enough to be my great grandpa, but. And he's dead. But you know, you know, you know, there's multiple things, you know, there's multiple things that. That could cause that. But I was like, of course. Like that. That lamp is so gay. Like, not. I don't think a straight man would have a mini disco ball beaded lamp just next to his bed. I don't think so. And so I was like, yeah, that is kind of a sign, you know, I think that's a sign that someone's gay.

Faith Doubts and Identity Questions as a Teen

John Dehlin [00:35:35] You mentioned, you know, the primary song, I Feel My Savior's no. Heavenly Father. You really there? Yes. How were, as you were thinking about who you were inside with what the church was teaching about gender identity and sexuality, and then you have this relationship with Heavenly Father. What were you feeling about Heavenly Father's opinions of you and Heavenly Father's feelings about you and who you were inside? Does that make sense?

Nate Winterton [00:36:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:05] Or were you just avoiding that?

Nate Winterton [00:36:06] No, I think. Short answer. I felt like a fraud because I knew. I knew what I was. And I would pray to God, I would go to script. I would like read my scriptures every day.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] Did you go to seminary?

Nate Winterton [00:36:21] Oh, I liked seminary. I hated my seminary teacher. I hated him. He was like this hunter, like country dude. And I've just never been about hunting those who do it. That's your thing. I have family who does it, but I'm just not for it. I don't think it's a necessity. Don't come after me. And so he was just like a really butch dude, a little bit of toxic masculinity. Yeah, he was just toxic masculinity personified, which is a normal thing in the Mormon church. But I loved seminary because I loved anything I could do to learn about the church, anything I could do to get closer, a stronger testimony, and to prepare to go on a mission to just be the best Mormon boy a person could be. And while I was doing all this, I never felt really strong with the church. I would post like all the time on Facebook or Twitter and stuff like that. Like scriptures or general conference quotes or a lot of the time for a while I was obsessed with the. The tattooed Mormon girl. I was like obsessed with her because I was like, oh, she's like different. So she could help with like my non Mormon friends. And it was just a whole fraud. I was putting on this whole facade during the day. I would grab a mask, put it on, and there's Happy Nathan who loves Jesus, who loves the church, who goes about their day and is just the encapsulation of a perfect Mormon child. And then at night, I would take off the mask. I would sit in my room, I would cry. I would journal about my depression, and I would journal about hating myself and wanting to be different and go to sleep thinking those thoughts, then wake up, put on the mask, do it again.

John Dehlin [00:38:17] Not fun.

Nate Winterton [00:38:18] No. And it's really draining to live your whole life in a costume.

John Dehlin [00:38:28] I'm so sorry.

Nate Winterton [00:38:29] Thank you. All to all to make something that turned out to hurt you. Not even, like, proud.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:37] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:38:38] Yeah. That's a lot of work to hurt yourself, right?

Nate Winterton [00:38:40] Yeah. A lot of work to just hurt yourself in the end, amidst that time,

Margi Dehlin [00:38:46] did you have anyone that you felt like you could show pieces of that to, or was it. Was it basically a room, this dark room that only you visited? Like, did anyone get those pieces of?

Nate Winterton [00:39:02] My mom.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:02] Your mom did.

Nate Winterton [00:39:03] My mom did.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:06] She.

Nate Winterton [00:39:06] She saw the true me. And even When I was 13, she asked me if I was gay. She took me to lunch, and she's like, I just want. I was just wondering, like, are you gay? And I freaked out, and I got really mad. I was like, no, how dare you? I'm not gay. Like, that's not a thing. Like, with me. I'm not, like, because her brother's gay. I'm like, I'm not like, Uncle Michael. Like, I'm straight. I promise. She's like, okay, I just wanted to ask. And then it was just never brought up again. So she definitely saw parts of me that I didn't let others see. And same with my dad. I let them see who I was at times.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:47] At times, yeah. And did you. Did you feel like, in your home culture, what did you feel like, your mom's attitude towards your uncle? Like, what did you witness in your home culture around lgbtqia sort of issues, or.

Nate Winterton [00:40:11] My mom, about her brother.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:13] He.

Nate Winterton [00:40:15] She loved him. She always said that. She's like, I really do love him and his husband, but. Which. There's always a but. She's like, I just wish he would have, like, tried to, like, because he went on a mission and was Mormon, and they did, like, a lot of studying together, and, like, they were really devout. And she's just like, I just wish that he could have tried to make the church work. And so it was always, oh, I love him. But this. This. This with the church. And then my dad, I don't. I don't really have memories of him ever talking about the queer community. The first person he ever met that was gay was my uncle. The day of their wedding, because he grew up in Roosevelt and his family basically is that whole town. There's a lot of them. And I do have memories of like his siblings making fun of gay people at family parties, like, making comments about them and, oh, like just how they were disgusted by it. And those were like my interactions. So like, it was just always growing up, like, that's not a good thing. And it was definitely a choice. I was always taught that being gay or whatever was a choice. Always. That was always my opinion growing up.

High School, Graduation, and Preparing for a Mission

John Dehlin [00:41:43] What year did you graduate from high school?

Nate Winterton [00:41:44] 2013.

John Dehlin [00:41:46] Okay, so you. That would have been years after Prop 8. Do you remember speeches over general conference growing up where they would talk about same sex attraction or.

Nate Winterton [00:41:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:58] Threat of same sex marriage and the attack on the family? Do you remember any of that stuff?

Nate Winterton [00:42:03] Yes. And it. It honestly kind of scared me as a kid because I was. It. It made me go deeper into a hole and it made me not want to come out because I was. I was terrified. I was terrified of what the church would do. I was terrified about what like my, like bishop would do. I was terrified that my family wouldn't love me anymore. All because of talks and especially with the whole drama complama of Prop 8 and how the church was so outwardly for it. Well, you know what I mean. And they just let their stance be known and as a teenager was really scared as a closeted gay kid.

John Dehlin [00:42:53] This is an aside, but I just want to ask you this question very directly. Yesterday I was with Margi and I get a text from a friend who is attending their state conference. And my friend texted me, john, they mentioned your name in state conference. And I'm like, what? He's like, yeah, it was state conference. A general authority was in town. He mentioned your name and said you've been lying to Mormons everywhere, claiming that it's the church's fault that LGBT youth sometimes are suicidal, when in reality it's actually the church makes it better for LGBT youth, the church makes it a healthier place. And somehow someone's done a study where they've compared non religious LGBT youth in Utah to like Mormon LGBT youth. And somehow they're trying to interpret the data as saying that the church is actually good for LGBT LGBT youth in Utah and that like people like me are just lying and misleading Utahns and Mormons.

Nate Winterton [00:43:48] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] What would your. If you were to sort of respond to that new positioning, that actually the church is healthy for LGBT Mormon youth in Utah, do you have a response to that?

Nate Winterton [00:44:00] I do. And I'm Flat out, that's a lie. It's bull, honky. It's them just trying to make people stay. It's not healthy for Mormon LGBTQ youth. Suicide is the leading cause of death for children from the ages of 12 to 18 in the state of Utah. I personally know four people who have died by suicide that were raised Mormon. Three of them were queer. And it's wrong. The Mormon Church doesn't show love or kindness in full sincerity like they say they do for youth, and it scares youth, and it makes them feel that they are less than and that they're a mistake in God's eyes, even though at the same time they're told they're a mistake, but that God loves everyone. So they're contradicting themselves. And they're just trying, in my opinion, to keep numbers up, even if it's at the expense of other people. I mean, go to Encircle and speak to the counselors there or in Utah or, you know, or even just go online and listen to people's stories. It's not true. It's an epidemic. Suicide is. But it really is one for Mormon queer youth. They're terrified, and they want to end their lives because their church is telling them that they are not worthy.

John Dehlin [00:45:34] And that's. Is that. Did you feel that in high school?

Nate Winterton [00:45:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:39] Okay.

Nate Winterton [00:45:39] Yeah. I had suicidal ideation in high school, and it didn't help. And it was. I. It was triggered and caused by hearing things like that from the church or by just Mormon members that I knew and that they didn't know I was gay.

John Dehlin [00:45:57] I think the church's argument might be, well, okay, the LGBT messages aren't great, but you've got friends, you've got a community, you've got a connection to God, you've got the hymns, you've got leaders who love you and look after you. That maybe all of that good outweighs the negative. I think that would be the church's

Nate Winterton [00:46:14] argument, and that's false. Just to be brutally honest. It's a false truth. And I. This is maybe controversial, but I hate how they, like, use specific gay people at times and they, like, rotate them out to see, like, look at this. I'm living proof that I can be gay and Mormon, Hashtag blessed. You know, like, it's just a false, like, preachy thing, and I don't like it. And I tried to do the living Mormon and gay thing. And, you know, this is kind of stepping ahead, so I won't go into detail, but, like, I went to, like, affirmation and stuff like that. Or like, North Star. And those things made me more suicidal and led me to conversion therapy. Because they just said you can't. No. You know, just basically be fully abstinent. Be a monk, basically, and make sure that your church is your number one thing.

John Dehlin [00:47:13] Well, I want to come back to that, but. But I guess there's a mission first, Right? So you.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:20] Did you go to college before your mission?

Nate Winterton [00:47:23] No, because I was 18. Okay. So.

John Dehlin [00:47:25] Oh, and the age had dropped by then.

Nate Winterton [00:47:26] The age has dropped. The age dropped. And I was 18. And I. Before I went on mission, I worked up money for it, and I actually posed for the church for ads. What? Yeah, I was a little Mormon model. So, like, I still have one picture saved, but it's.

John Dehlin [00:47:46] Let's see if we can try and get that to Kara and add it to the. To the show notes.

Nate Winterton [00:47:51] Yeah, I'll email. It's a picture with.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] Was it like the I'm a Mormon campaign or.

Nate Winterton [00:47:54] It's. It's. I don't remember. It was, like. I think it was for a fireside. I don't know, but, like, a national one, but it was with a quorum of the 12. And he's the one that has, like, the pinched nose, the glasses, and he's, like, balding. He kind of looks like. Like a Whoville person.

Guest [00:48:10] Elder Eyring?

Nate Winterton [00:48:11] I think so. No, because he, like, was, like, more stout. Irene's, like, quite skinny.

Guest [00:48:16] Oh, never mind.

Nate Winterton [00:48:17] But it's that guy. For anyone who could guess that, that

Margi Dehlin [00:48:21] could be a fun game.

Guest [00:48:22] Quinn Cook, put your answer in the comments.

Nate Winterton [00:48:24] Cook. That's who it was. It was quote Cook. Yeah. And so I'm just standing there in, like, my missionary suit right before I was going on a mission, smiling with him, like, hi. And I got paid for it, like, weekly. I just posed with them and did modeling for the church to earn money.

John Dehlin [00:48:40] Wow.

Nate Winterton [00:48:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] Nice.

Nate Winterton [00:48:42] It was interesting. And then I got called to serve, and I served in Tallahassee, Florida, and I served there for six months and then came home. My mission was a really dark time for me. I felt really alone and isolated. I had horrible mission companions who were kind of, I don't know, very toxic masculinity. And every day of my mission, I called home to my parents.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] How would they treat you?

Nate Winterton [00:49:15] They didn't treat me bad, but they were just so. I'm an empath. And they were very. Just like, we need to get this done. Numbers, numbers, numbers. When I was one, like, I wanted to sit with someone. I wanted to hear their story. If the appointment went over 45 minutes, I'm okay with it. And they were just very, like, by the book. I was spirit of the law. They were letter of the law. I remember I had one instance where I taught a gay guy. And it was really interesting because we were just like. You know when you just, like, walk an area until you find someone, you're like, let's find someone to teach. And he was out washing his car, and we come up. I was like, hello, sir. My name is Elder Winterton. I'd love to share messages with you about the church, Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. And he's like, it's not for me. Christians don't really like my kind. And I was like, oh, what do you mean? He's like, oh, well, I'm gay. And I was like, oh, okay. That's okay. Like, God loves gay people too. Could I. At least it doesn't have to be about the church. Could I just share a scripture with you? And he was like, yeah, I guess you could do that. And so I shared John 3:16. You know, for God's will of the world they gave, son, that whosoever should believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. And he liked it. And I asked if we could come back and share just a scripture with him another time. And he said yes. And so we started walking away. And I was feeling pumped. I was feeling motivated. I was like, this is awesome. I'm gonna convert a gay guy. And I told my companion. I was like, well, okay. I can't wait to come back. He's like, we're not gonna go back to his house, Elder. I was like, why? He's like, because he's gay, you know, like, he can't be a part of our church and be that. And for me, in my mind, I, like, crumbled inside because I was like, well, I'm. That. That means I don't belong. And it kind of created, like, a little crisis in my head. And after that, I really started to spiral at my mission. My anxiety, my depression really took over. My eating disorder took over, and I just kept getting. It was worse and worse each week because I thought I was a good missionary. I thought I was a good member. I thought I was doing everything for my church. Everything. My whole life was dedicated to it. And then just casually, I was told, well, you can't be that and be. Be a part of this, even though God loves everyone, supposedly. And so after months of a lot of crying, a lot of screaming into the phone, a lot of not eating, A lot of just being basically constantly in a state of panic and a state of.

Serving a Mission While Battling an Eating Disorder

John Dehlin [00:52:09] Did I hear, Did I read or hear somewhere you ate Woody, like two meals a week or something like that?

Nate Winterton [00:52:14] Yeah, my anorexia got really bad, I believe. Like I got really sick. I got so weak I couldn't get out of bed while I was on my mission because I just wouldn't eat. And then in junior high, I actually went to an eating disorder, a retreat. I had to get some therapy for that. And it came back on my mission and my mission I just wouldn't. I wouldn't buy groceries because then I didn't have to have food to eat. I would just drink water sometimes. And I was really sick and really weak. And so because of my eating disorder, my bishop finally agreed after literally begging him in the middle of a field of Georgia in August. No, in beginning of end of September, I can go home. So general conference weekend. He flew me home after they were first going to make me pay to go home. They weren't going to pay because I didn't finish my two years. And I've heard that a lot. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:15] And if you choose to come home because of mental health or whatever, they try and stick you with the bill.

Nate Winterton [00:53:21] Yeah. And my mom wasn't gonna have it. So she literally called and yelled at the mission president and made him pay. She's like, you own so and so many houses. You can afford to buy one plane ticket for my child to get him home to me. And so I got flown home. And. The only thing that changed about my emotional state when coming over a mission is at the location. That's it. That's the only thing that changed because the mental health was still there and the pain was still there. When I first got home, I was. Rumors spread that I came home early because I was addicted to porn or that maybe he slept with a sister missionary, which we all can laugh at that one, you know. And I was shunned by some people that I thought were my friends because I didn't do a full two year mission. And so for like the first year of being home, I only went to sacrament because people were just really mean and. It was just a really dark time in my life and things got darker.

John Dehlin [00:54:36] Were you ever attracted to any of your companions?

Nate Winterton [00:54:39] No.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] Okay.

Nate Winterton [00:54:40] They were kind of. They were, they. They were just not my type.

John Dehlin [00:54:42] They weren't your type.

Nate Winterton [00:54:43] They weren't my type, to put it kindly.

John Dehlin [00:54:48] Yeah. Well, that's no fun to come Home and have it not get better.

Nate Winterton [00:54:53] Yeah, it's really not. Especially when you feel so alone that you. You can't talk to anyone about it. You feel like you can't because then if you do, you're going to get kicked out of the church or that you're going to be disowned or who knows what. I really didn't know what would happen. I was just scared. And so finally, a year after I got home, I was, like, really interested to, because I was, like, trying a lot to be straight. And after a year being home, I was like, oh, like, this isn't going away.

Post-Mission LGBTQ Support Groups and Celibacy Attempts

John Dehlin [00:55:28] Was that the North Star time? And.

Nate Winterton [00:55:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:30] Can you talk about what North Star was, how you heard about it? Yeah, anything you did. I mean, I guess you're going to talk. Okay, wait, I know that later you're going to talk about. Follow the timeline. But anything related to sort of church resources for LGBT people, make sure and integrate that.

Nate Winterton [00:55:48] Yeah. So during this time for, like, it was like North Star and affirmation.

John Dehlin [00:55:54] You knew about the Mormons and gays website, right?

Nate Winterton [00:55:56] Yes, I had multiple friends who were on it.

John Dehlin [00:55:59] Oh, did that make you feel great?

Nate Winterton [00:56:03] It made me feel hopeful, but at the same time confused, which doesn't make sense. I know, but it's how I felt. Like it was a mixture of both, because I was like, well, okay, here's my friend, and he's married and he has two kids and he's gay, but he's made this work. And on the website, he was, like, really happy and positive, and they were hopeful and they were in this together. But then we would meet in private, like, have car chats, and he would cry and be so disheartened that he's just not attracted. And he was being exhausted and drained by the facade he had to put on every day. And then plus the pressure of the being on the Mormon gay website. Like, he had to make his marriage work, which, fun fact, now he's divorced happily and married to a guy. So it's like, you know, it was

John Dehlin [00:56:56] kind of a fraud. It was kind of a fake, a phony. Sometimes they put these people on the websites or make these videos and it's pressuring. Yeah. But it's not real. And these people aren't happy and.

Nate Winterton [00:57:07] No. And all the ones I knew, like, they literally, we had moments of just, like, literally, we would gather just to sit and cry about how we hated being gay. And that's what we talked about, how we hated ourselves, which is really toxic to put yourself into that Energy space, constantly. And so I only went to, like, one North Star thing.

John Dehlin [00:57:32] What was that like?

Nate Winterton [00:57:34] It was.

John Dehlin [00:57:34] What'd you think you were gonna experience?

Nate Winterton [00:57:37] I didn't know.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] Okay.

Nate Winterton [00:57:38] I had no idea. I was just invited by my friend who was also on Mormon and gay website.

John Dehlin [00:57:42] How did they. Did they describe it? Do you remember?

Nate Winterton [00:57:44] I mean, he said, it's just like, you know, we're just gathering. It's just gonna be a little gathering, get together and we're just gonna hang out. And it wasn't anything special. I've heard of, like, scary stories or, like, those weird, like, cuddle parties and stuff like that, but I didn't experience that. It was literally just gathering with food. And I just felt out of place because all these guys were, like, in their 40s and I was 20, and I was like, what the. Like, y'.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:09] All.

John Dehlin [00:58:09] Did they might seem super. Did they seem super happy?

Nate Winterton [00:58:12] No, it was a very somber energy in the room. And everyone just like. Because their wives weren't there, and everyone was just sad. And it was. It was depressing to see all of these people not being able to be themselves because they're so terrified of what their eternal salvation will be. And that's the same experience I had with affirmation. It was just like a little luncheon. And it was like, gay guys and then, like, these straight women, allies being like, you can do it, you know, and we're like, we cannot.

John Dehlin [00:58:53] Did you get a sense for those who tried celibacy over an extended period of time how that worked out for. For those who tried celibacy?

Nate Winterton [00:59:03] It made them feel like. I. I feel like that's why they were so depressed, because, like, they weren't, like, asexual or anything like that. So, like, they had those urges and the wants to do those things, and they couldn't. And they. If they did, it was going to be with someone who was. They weren't physically attracted to. So they had to imagine a guy, you know, and so, yeah, I think it was just. I think it's not healthy. I don't think if. Whatever you're like, it's normal to be sexual if that's what you are, and if you're doing it in a healthy and safe way. And they weren't. They were being repressed. And so it made the negative. It made the energy they weren't using come out in negative ways.

John Dehlin [00:59:55] So. So after North Star and affirmation didn't

Nate Winterton [00:59:58] work after that, I hadn't come out to anyone because, like, ever. I never even called Myself gay out loud, but with, like, North Star and stuff. Like, I'd never said it, you know, I just. But those things weren't working. And I tried, like, forcing myself to watch straight porn to see if it would make me feel attracted to them.

John Dehlin [01:00:18] What was that like?

Nate Winterton [01:00:19] It was awful, obviously. Like, the human body is beautiful, and I wasn't disgusted by the bodies. I was disgusted by myself doing this. And I was feeling really ashamed because I wasn't being attracted to what I was watching, no matter, like, what genre or like, you know, like, stuff like that.

John Dehlin [01:00:42] And so I heard someone once say, that's not. It was in the context of talking about the electroshock therapy, because they would show porn and. And someone would say, well, if they show you straight porn, at least you get to see the man. But.

Nate Winterton [01:00:56] Oh, that was it. No, didn't happen for me. Okay, but we'll get to that with my electroshock therapy, because it, like, I don't know, like, even my own, like, I guess form of conversion therapy didn't work. And so I came out to. I called my. My ysa bishop, my uncle's single adult bishop, and I asked him if I could meet with him. I just had a secret I needed to tell him. And so we set up a meeting and I said, hey, so I want to apologize that I'm gay. And so I came out as gay to him. And I came out to him because I wanted some guidance. I was like, can you, like, can you help me?

John Dehlin [01:01:50] Was this the bishop you had known or.

Nate Winterton [01:01:51] Yeah, he was my ysa bishop. I was in that ward for a couple years, like, even before my mission. And I guess in a way, he saw me grow up in a little bit, and he was older, just like an older guy, you know? And so he didn't really know what to say. So he was like, let me think on this and talk to a few people, and then can we meet at a later date? And I was kind of, like, taken back. I was like, I haven't told anyone for 20 something years. For 20 years. And like, I then just get told, can we meet later? And he didn't, like, have a reaction or anything. So I was like, there's nothing. I was like, what the freak? And so I was like, yeah, we can do that. And so a month went by and he finally called me and we met and he was.

John Dehlin [01:02:51] I mean, it sounds like he probably wasn't prepared because they're often not trained. And so he probably had to go ask somebody, what do I do?

Nate Winterton [01:02:56] That's what I. That's what I assume. Because, one, he's, like, older, you know, and so maybe it just wasn't a part of his. I don't know, maybe he's never met a gay person. Maybe he did and he wasn't educated on it. I think because of his age, though, he just didn't know what to do. And so I think that's why it just. Did it still, like, hurt me, though, because I was like, I wanted you to at least have a conversation with me. Like, you didn't have to have an answer, but at least be like, say something. I mean, David Archuleta had more with his mission president. So true, right?

Margi Dehlin [01:03:29] Yeah. If we were going to get a snapshot of you in it during this period of time, how would you describe what you were feeling like in this just place in time and especially going into the bishop's office? Like, how. How you felt going in?

Coming Out to Church Leaders and Conversion Therapy

Nate Winterton [01:03:49] Were you really, like.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:50] Were you terrified? Were you desperate? Like, what did it feel like? It was.

Nate Winterton [01:03:56] It was pure desperation. I was, like, at my wit's end, because for me, I was at the. I was at, like, the. The breaking point of, okay, either I'm going to reach out and tell someone or I'm just going to end it all. I was. At that point, I was like, it's one or the other. And so I felt, like, as small as a pea when I went into his office. I just felt so insignificant and I felt so ashamed and like, I failed that I had to come out to someone because I thought I could take care of it on my own, and I couldn't. And so I. Going in there, I literally just felt desperate. So small and like a failure. Asking for help.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:52] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [01:04:54] And going into, like, the second appointment, I felt the same, but I was also very nervous. I was really, like, scared of what this, like, second meeting's gonna be like. I really thought I was being excommunicated that day or something. I was like. I thought I was just done because I, like, you know, I told my secret. And it wasn't that he was, like, really, like, same attitude. He's always been, like, a very gentle spirit. And he was like, I've been doing some thinking. I've been doing. Talking with a few people, and there's this gentleman who used to be gay himself and was able to work through that. Well, he said same sex, attracted. I just don't like using that.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:39] And when you use it, John, you're using it.

Nate Winterton [01:05:41] Yeah, he's not using it. Yeah, he's using it as a reflection. He's not using it. Yeah. Which I know he's like, he's definitely not using it as like a term.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:48] I was actually asking because I know that terminology can be sensitive. And you're using it on purpose. Right. To reflect how the church talks about

Nate Winterton [01:05:58] it, Is that right?

John Dehlin [01:05:59] Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a polarizing and offensive term to refer to someone's identity as same sexuality.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:06] I just want to be clear about that.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] What's. Did I use that term earlier as

Margi Dehlin [01:06:11] you were talking about kind of church leaders and how they oftentimes talk?

John Dehlin [01:06:16] Yeah, this is important.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:17] I think it's important for the audience to understand why he uses that and why that terminology is not something you would want to.

Nate Winterton [01:06:29] Did the church come up with that term?

John Dehlin [01:06:30] Yeah, well, I don't think so. But for those who have never been Mormon, we have a lot of listeners who have never been Mormon or for those who just are new to this topic. So historically, Christian religions in the United States have wanted, you know, in the 60s, 70s and 80s, just pretend that gay people didn't exist. If they ever talked about being gay, they would refer to them as homosexuals. And that was actually a pathological term. It started out as a term to pathologize the, the identity. And if you look at the early versions of the diagnostics and statistics manual for psychologists, it was actually a mental illness. Gay or homosexuality was a mental illness

Nate Winterton [01:07:10] in the psych ward. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:11] And that was declassified as a mental illness in the early 70s after Stonewall riots and sort of the gay pride movement. It was at least declassified, but religious organizations still needed a term, but they didn't want to even acknowledge gay, lesbian or bisexual identities or even ever say the word sex. You know, the Mormons don't even like to say the word sex. They call it intimacy. Right. So calling someone same sex attracted was a way to avoid having to use the word sex. Actually, you do say same sex attracted. Sometimes the Mormon churches say same gender attracted. But regardless, it was a, the most importantly, it was a way to help prevent someone from taking on the identity because, oh, you're not gay, you're not lesbian, you just experience same sex attraction. And so it wasn't Mormonism that came up with that. Evangelical Christianity, Orthodox Judaism, Catholicism, that, that was a whole thing in the 70s and 80s to try and just deny that there was even such a thing as a gay or lesbian bisexual identity choice.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:13] Yeah, yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:08:15] But it's super, it's a super offensive term because it's, it's negating people's identity. It's describing it again like it's an illness. But what's tricky about it is if you're speaking from the church's standpoint, that's how they describe it. But also if, if a Mormon self identifies that way, one of the most sacred rules of identity is you always, you always respect how someone self identifies. So it's always tricky. And then even in the scientific literature, same sex attracted is an accepted term to describe being attracted to someone who identifies the same sex. That's not to embrace that identity. It's just a technical term. So it's a really fraught term. But the main thing you need to know is outside of orthodox religious circles, it's a super offensive term that you should never use unless somebody tells you that's how they want to be identified. Does that make sense?

Margi Dehlin [01:09:06] Yes. Thanks for that.

John Dehlin [01:09:08] Sorry for that. I hope I didn't.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:09] Sorry.

Nate Winterton [01:09:09] No, you're fine. No need to apologize. That's important to talk about.

John Dehlin [01:09:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're talking to your bishop. He's, he's referring you to someone that's going to fix you.

Nate Winterton [01:09:20] Exactly. Someone.

John Dehlin [01:09:21] 20, 30, 40 years of Mormonism. This is what Mormons. And you think this we would have ended 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, but we're talking four or five years ago, right?

Nate Winterton [01:09:29] Yeah, 2016.

John Dehlin [01:09:30] Yeah. So five years ago.

Nate Winterton [01:09:32] Yeah, a little bit of 2015 and into 2016.

John Dehlin [01:09:36] So he says, tell us again.

Nate Winterton [01:09:38] Oh, yeah. So he was like. So I like, was talking to some people, doing some research and there's this gentleman that was gay, was same sex attracted and he was able to get over that trial and he was able to get married and he has children and he now has this therapy that can help you that you can have the same experience as him and you can get to your goal. And I was like, okay. He's like, would you be willing to meet with him? And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'd be more than happy to. He's like, okay, let me just reach out to him, find out the meeting time, like when he's his availability and then I'll get back with you. I was like, great. So the next day he called me back and he wanted to meet with me that evening. And he gave me the gentleman's address, which was in my stake, the house bounds. And yeah, I went to his home and my conversion therapy process started that night.

John Dehlin [01:10:45] What did the guy tell you?

Nate Winterton [01:10:47] So when he arrived, he like greeted me, welcomed me, you know, and was like, thank you for coming. Your bishop told me your situation and how you deal with same sex attraction. Gave me a little bit of his backstory. Just like very vague, you know, like, I used to be gay. I was able to get over it. I now have a wife and children. Someone used this therapy on me and it helped me. So my hope is that it will help you as well. And I was like, okay. I was like, what type of therapy is it? And he's like, well, I don't really like to talk about it beforehand. I would like it if I like it with people. Just go in open minded and open heart and we can just go from there. Which is the first sign of a giant red flag. That's a huge red flag of if a clinical therapist or any medical professional will not give you details. Do not just leave, hands down. And who knows if this person even did have a license.

John Dehlin [01:11:42] Yeah, I was gonna say that he

Nate Winterton [01:11:44] might, he might not. It could have just been in his mind. And so that was a red flag that I avoided because I was desperate. I was at my wit's end and I was almost like living in a state of shock. Which, speaking of.

John Dehlin [01:12:01] No pun intended.

Nate Winterton [01:12:02] No pun intended. So I went through three forms of conversion therapy. And the first one was shock therapy. With this therapy, it was. It was like in his basement and there was a TV and gay porn was playing, but I was nude and tied to a chair. So like my hands were like down and so were like my ankles. And he would put on the porn and if I got aroused or he saw that because he could, he would shock me and they were just all over. So like on my legs, on my arms, on my like stomach, couple on my neck. And he would just go throughout that process.

John Dehlin [01:12:58] Was it painful?

Nate Winterton [01:12:59] Very. Some weren't as bad because it was. He could choose the level, but it was very painful and humiliating to see a man just see you full on naked and judging that. And so that went on for like a while, Like a couple months, twice a week.

John Dehlin [01:13:31] How was that? Did it work? Did it not work?

Nate Winterton [01:13:34] It didn't work.

John Dehlin [01:13:34] What was it like to experience it for anything?

Nate Winterton [01:13:36] It like, it really, it scared me sexually. And that's something I've had to work through. So now I'm like, I'm able to have sexual things with my partner when I have one, I'm single. But it made it so that I was terrified of intercourse. I really didn't want to. I didn't want to hold someone's hand, I didn't want to kiss them. I just wanted to be left alone for a while. I was scared of touch from. In an intimate way. By the same sex.

John Dehlin [01:14:11] Yeah. What's so damaging and sometimes deadly about that form of therapy? If you think about, like, all the way back to, like, Psych 101, there's this idea of Pavlov and the dog, and you ring the bell and the food's introduced, and the dog learns to salivate when the bells rung. Because there's a pairing or an association with the food. And so it's the pairing psychologically that is going on there. And so what they're trying to do is they're trying to basically create a very negative experience and pair it with you being sexually aroused.

Nate Winterton [01:14:44] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:14:45] With the idea that if they do that enough, you'll somehow lose interest and then. Yeah. Potentially switch.

Nate Winterton [01:14:53] Switch teams.

John Dehlin [01:14:55] Did that work?

Nate Winterton [01:14:56] No, it didn't work.

John Dehlin [01:14:57] So it just ruins your core sexuality.

Nate Winterton [01:14:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:00] And doesn't do anything to. Did they show you straight porn, too?

Nate Winterton [01:15:05] No. Oh, no. He asked me to watch it on my own, but it. When I was there, it was just gay porn.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:11] It basically sounds like it creates trauma.

Nate Winterton [01:15:13] Yeah, it was creating trauma. That's the whole thing. That's like my whole process with this man. It just created more and more trauma that I've had to work through.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:25] I'm so sorry.

Nate Winterton [01:15:26] Thank you. And it. It terrifies you. I know. Like, when my conversion therapy process started, it just. I changed completely as a person. My demeanor. Demeanor. I wasn't as bubbly. I didn't talk, really, to people. I kept to myself. I just spent a lot of time in my bedroom. I just didn't socialize with people. It started to isolate me because I was just feeling so worthless and desperate.

John Dehlin [01:16:03] And I'm so sorry.

Nate Winterton [01:16:04] Thank you. And it's. It's something that. It's. It's just. It just breaks you down in every moment. And I know that definitely happened for me with, like, just continuing on, like. So I. Another form of therapy I went through. I didn't know the term at the

John Dehlin [01:16:28] time because the first one didn't work. So they tried a second one.

Nate Winterton [01:16:32] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:16:32] Okay. Yeah.

Nate Winterton [01:16:33] First one didn't work. So let's try round two, which now I know the term, but it's called waterboarding for him. He described it as. It was suffocating out the gay. So we're going to use that to remove the gay from me. And, you know, sometimes it got me to the point of passing out because I was held under so long, and this type was really Traumatizing for me because he also, like, would say homophobic slurs while doing so. So, like, call me like a fucking fag or. You're worthless.

Guest [01:17:14] You.

Nate Winterton [01:17:15] You aren't going to be able to get into heaven if you don't change this. You need to surpass this so that you can become a higher being. And it was a very traumatizing process. I remember after my first round of doing that type, I just sat in my car outside this guy's house for, like, three hours. I just didn't move. And then I just. I just sat there, numb to the world. Someone could have hit me with a car and I wouldn't have noticed.

John Dehlin [01:17:53] And was there. Was there also the pairing of erotica or whatever with the drunk with the waterboarding?

Nate Winterton [01:17:59] Yeah, yeah. And excuse me, there was one final form, and I only tried that once because I just couldn't handle it. He had a woman touch me in specific ways to see if I could get aroused by a woman's touch. And that did not work. Really freaked me out a lot. And after I got home from that one, I was like, well, okay, I've tried everything. I was like, you were.

John Dehlin [01:18:44] You were paying for this, right?

Nate Winterton [01:18:45] Yeah, I was paying for it.

John Dehlin [01:18:46] What were you paying?

Nate Winterton [01:18:47] $100 a session. Yeah. Which I was a college student. I didn't have good money, so I was going into debt at the time

John Dehlin [01:18:59] and basically paying to get tortured.

Nate Winterton [01:19:02] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:04] Paying for trauma. Paying to be traumatized.

Nate Winterton [01:19:06] Paying to be traumatized. All because I thought that's what I needed to do.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:10] That's right. And your bishop, your soul is on the line.

Nate Winterton [01:19:13] Yeah, my soul is on the line

Margi Dehlin [01:19:14] to save your soul.

Nate Winterton [01:19:14] It's to save my soul.

John Dehlin [01:19:16] And your bishop had referred you to him.

Nate Winterton [01:19:18] Yeah, my bishop referred me to him.

John Dehlin [01:19:19] Your Mormon.

Nate Winterton [01:19:20] Mormon Bishop, I should say my Mormon YSA Bishop. Yeah.

Why Faithful Mormons Follow Harmful Ecclesiastical Advice

Guest [01:19:23] And I really want to make sure that this point doesn't go unmissed that we're talking about here, because I see a lot of people misunderstand why people like you can come on Mormon Stories and share this story, and it can go over so many people's heads where they're like, well, that was just a crazy person. That was just you taking things too seriously. Can you really speak to what it is about Mormon doctrine and culture that convinced you that this is the way it had to be?

Nate Winterton [01:19:47] Yes, thank you for asking that. That's actually the one thing I was actually really worried about with this interview, because I've had Mormons in the past get really mad at me. Because I was over the age of 18. So they're like, this was fully your choice. This is fully something that you could have not done. This is all like your own caused pain. And they. They don't. They get really mad that I say that the church is to blame for it. But the fact is, is that like Margi said, my soul was on the line in my eyes. I felt like if I wanted to be with my family, if I wanted to be with my community, if I wanted to be with my God, I had to marry a woman and get into the highest of high, and the only way to do that is if I was straight. And I'm just far from it. And so I was in a state of desperation and trauma. I was, like, in a state of shock, really, throughout the whole thing. And it wasn't. People can say it was a choice, but at that time, I wasn't a choice. It was this or nothing, literally this or my life. And I had no other option. And it's all because I was raised by a religion that doesn't accept it. And if they say they do, it's only if you abide by their rules in a very specific way, in a very demeaning way, in a way that actually causes harm.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:27] And you can speak to that a little bit, John, because of the research you actually did. If we're going to lean into science for a minute, when you did your research for your. This is what you studied.

John Dehlin [01:21:39] Yeah, I'll go to that in just one second. And I just want to ask, can you also tell our listeners what you had been taught about the role of bishops and what. What you should.

Nate Winterton [01:21:50] What.

John Dehlin [01:21:50] What authority they have and what. What. What bishop's advice means to an orthodox Mormon.

Nate Winterton [01:21:58] I think their advice means everything to an orthodox Mormon. I know for me, growing up, you know, like, they were our leader, they were of, like, our area. They were the ones that had intuition by God. You know, they were able to be inspired and guided into what was right for not only you, but for the entire ward. And so for me, it was so easy to trust him and to trust any of my Mormon leaders, scout leaders, any of them, because I was like, oh, well, they're all called by God. Yeah, it's a very sacred thing. I. My young men's leader, all of them. I was like, oh, I need to follow them. It was a gift by God that they were my leader and I. I need to follow what he says.

Guest [01:22:42] I'm feeling that mama bear thing that Margi was talking about earlier, getting Anxious. I just want to say one more thing. It makes me. I just hope listeners will really listen to what you're talking about with. I mean, this is really hard to hear. This is the first time I've heard this story of yours, Nate, in depth. And it's kind of hitting me emotionally, as I'm sure a lot of people will also feel. Actually come back to me in a second.

John Dehlin [01:23:05] I was just going to say there's a scripture, doctrine and covenants within orthodox Mormonism where we're taught the scripture says, whether by my. It's as in God's voice speaking, whether by my voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. And what we're taught that means is that our leaders speak with the voice of God. So when a. When a orthodox Mormon's mad at you for like consenting to this as a 18 year old, what they're not recognizing is you had been taught that you obey your leaders because they literally speak for God.

Nate Winterton [01:23:44] Exactly. And like, that's something that just really hits me. Like I was like the most anxious about that because I was like, just with any interview I've done that, like, I know a Mormon's gonna listen to because I've gotten a lot of hate for that in the past. And it's like, it's not. It's not something I was like, just willy nilly out of, like, like the air. Just decided to do on a Tuesday. There was a lot of things that we've talked about that led me up to that point and led me to be so desperate that I would be willing to pay this dude to torture me. Because it's not therapy. I mean, any form of conversion therapy, even if it's just mental, is even proven by like, like the psychiatric board of the United States, like, that it's wrong and it wasn't a choice for me. It just wasn't.

Guest [01:24:43] Yeah, I want to speak to people who maybe I would get. I'm thinking of my Mormon self two years ago, who I would have heard something like that be like, oh, that was just a crazy person, Nate. You should have known better. You know, and not understanding what conditioning is in this like, hyper focused Mario woman in the temple culture of Mormonism, not seeing the force from the cheese quite as much. So as somebody who was raised in Utah county, who had a very nuanced upbringing, raised by feminists, like, I didn't have a super orthodox view of the church. And I also have the privilege of being like a very straight woman with a pretty easy Life in that kind of way. You know, I just hope that people can understand that we all have different experiences of our conditioning. And it is pretty mainstream to be conditioned in that way, that there is one path. I had a little bit more of an alternative, less orthodox, more nuanced view. And if that is a listener out there, you should be really grateful that you didn't have that. Sounds like Nate had a different experience. So I would hope that when somebody is confronted with what Nate just said and your first instinct is to say, well, that's just a dumb person at the church who did something horrible. Let's ignore that. To not see the wider picture of why somebody would choose that. Because I can't think of something in all of Mormon General Conference, everything you just talked about with what bishops mean to somebody when they're getting counseled, where is the nuance? Where. What would somebody have to have said to Nate to be able for them to know that it's okay to be gay? Are those messages out there, at least when you were growing up?

Nate Winterton [01:26:24] No.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:24] Are they?

Guest [01:26:25] Are they out there? Is there a strong, from the top of the church to say that it is okay just as you are?

Nate Winterton [01:26:31] No. No, it's not. Because they don't have that. They have. You could be Mormon and gay, you know, as long as you're this, this, this.

Guest [01:26:41] And you knew that your friends who were married to women, like you said, were miserable.

Nate Winterton [01:26:45] Exactly. I knew that. Friends who were married to. They were literally miserable, crying, consoling me. I mean, they had the. The Mormon dream. A house, three kids, a wife, a good job, but inside dying because they're not living authentically. They're living to just make this organization proud so that they can hopefully get into the gates of heaven.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:09] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [01:27:10] And that's what I was so worried about, because I wanted to. I wanted to be in the celestial kingdom with my family. I did. That was my only thing I wanted in my life. And I was so desperate for it, and I yearned for it every day.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:25] Yeah. Yeah.

Nate Winterton [01:27:26] And so many queer people do that.

John Dehlin [01:27:29] Yeah. And. And Mormons are often taught that the. The best thing about Mormonism is eternal families.

Nate Winterton [01:27:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:36] But it gets dark really quickly when that's turned against you to where you're told, well, if you're gay and you act on it, then you're going to

Nate Winterton [01:27:45] lose your mom and dad parents anymore.

John Dehlin [01:27:47] You won't get to be with Heavenly Father anymore. That eternal family that's supposed to be this great thing turns out to be deadly.

Nate Winterton [01:27:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:54] And then Margi Just to your point, I do. I do want to give kind of a psa. So when I learned about, like, Ty Mansfield dying by suicide in 2000, and then Margi's cousin Scott came out to us, and I realized in the early 2000s that there was this epidemic of death by suicide within Mormonism. And this is pre Prop 8, I decided for my PhD dissertation to study in depth the LGBTQ Mormon experience. So we surveyed 1612 Mormons who identified as LGBTQ or same sex attracted. And what we. It's the largest study ever conducted of its kind, not just within Mormons, but of any religious group. We found that 2/3 had attempted to change their sexual orientation. So 2 out of 3 more LGBTQ Mormons at least try to change. So 70 try to change their sexual orientation. Most of them use at least three different forms to try and change their sexual orientation. Many of them did it through therapists, many of them did it through support groups. And then many would do it through their bishops or. Or mission presidents. And then the most common and the most damaging form of conversion therapy is. Is actually not electroshock therapy. Believe it or not, the most damaging form of attempting to change your sexual orientation, according to our sample, was praying to Heavenly Father to be super extra righteous, to go to the temple, to fast, to read your scriptures, to have three callings and to be hyper religious and pray to have Heavenly Father take it away. It turns out that was the most common way that people attempted to change their sexual orientation, and it was the most common, damaging, and deadly. Does that, does that 100%?

Temple Devotion, Crisis of Faith, and Suicidality

Nate Winterton [01:29:35] It makes. I think it was the most emotional for me because, like, I went to the temple every week. Every week. And in high school, I went every Friday morning early. Like a lot of. I think personally, at least in my area, Utah county people, we go like, Friday morning before school and during the time of, like, conversion therapy and everything, for me, I went to the temple, like three times a week just to go into, like, the celestial. Is it called the session? It's been a while.

John Dehlin [01:30:05] Okay.

Nate Winterton [01:30:05] The celestial room. I just sit there and pray and pray and pray. Like, literally, like, like swaying back and forth, like. And did I ever get an answer that the gay would go away? No. No, I never got that answer. And I was in the holiest, apparently, like the. The most sacred and holiest place in the entire world.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:27] I remember reading because I helped with the study. I would read through and I just wept. I would just cry at the. Because there was a section in the study where people could write what they did. And it was just. It was just so appalling and. And so devastating to read the level of self aggression with just trying to do what was told to them, to kind of. I just remember being so deeply affected by it. And I think that's a key component here too, is just this message that we all get. But I do feel like it's different for the LGBTQIA community around. You're depraved. So if. If your experience, if you're having. You're a depraved human. So in other words, if you're having any type of experience in your life that is painful or where you're not feeling worthy or things are happening to you, it's on you. Are you doing this, this, this, this, this, and this, which no one can and no. So inevitably, it's always your fault. And I think that psychology, the psychology of growing up in your developmental years, always taking the hit, always taking the shame over time, you can't. It's difficult to explain to people, but I think it. It changes who you are and makes you feel at least fundamentally unworthy and unlovable. And I think that's. The second point is just talk about basic needs here. Like, you're trying to feel loved. You're trying to feel just a general sense of belonging as you breathe, as you're alive, and you're living in this environment where on some level you're not. It's being withheld and you're. It's at stake, and you're feeling like it's at stake in your family, in your greater community. You have layer upon layer upon layer. You know, not to mention culture. I think the greater culture, you know, during that time was slowly coming to, but, you know, not super with it either. So these are like basic needs not being met. And. And things like your brain is not being fed in a way that, you know, we all are changed in environments where we can't, you know, have our basic needs met. So those are two points that I think are also really key in understanding all the levels of desperation at work here, you know, seriously.

Nate Winterton [01:32:59] And that's why people die. Point blank, period. That is why I've had friends die. I've had friends, children die, all because they couldn't be accepted. And they just wanted that love, and they wanted that feeling of welcoming from God, and they couldn't have it because they weren't what he wanted, even though he created them. And so you're left chasing on like a mouse wheel trying to get that piece of Cheese, but it's outside the wheel and you can't go grab it. And so you're just stuck hoping to get it one day, but knowing that you never will. And that's where I was for my whole life. And that's why, like, after my conversion therapy, I was just end it all, you know, and tried to. To kill myself.

John Dehlin [01:33:57] That's what you did?

Nate Winterton [01:33:58] Yeah. I picked a day and I didn't leave a goodbye note, nothing. I didn't want people's last thought of me to be was that I was gay. And I. I tried the way I chose to attempt. And thankfully a friend had a feeling that they needed to call the 911 because they hadn't heard from me that day. And firemen knocked on my door. My parents answered. They're like, why are you here? And they're like, we got a 911 call for Nathan. And they stormed down my room and I was unconscious. And they were able to get me to a hospital and wake me up. And when my parents asked me, they're like, why'd you do it? Why'd you attempt? I yelled at him that I'm gay and to get the out, because I know you don't want me.

John Dehlin [01:35:00] This is in the hospital, right?

Nate Winterton [01:35:01] Yeah, in the er after I was just woken up. And one that wasn't the fact. I would just want to put that out there for people. My parents didn't know about the conversion therapy. They are really loving and they care for me. This was a meeting. It wasn't them. But I yelled that at them. And then I kicked them out. I was an adult, so I had the right to kick them out. And then I had to go to the psych ward and do that. And it just made me want to die. It made me feel hopeless and broken because I felt like a complete failure at that point. I realized, well, I can't even succeed at killing myself. I'm that bad of a failure that I can't even succeed at that when so many people have succeeded at that. And yeah, it left me really broken for a while and having to work through that.

John Dehlin [01:36:17] Trying to imagine your parents had fought so hard to help you live at the beginning years.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:24] Then for them to have fought so hard and then to see you overcome so many health issues and then to see you then to face potentially losing you even by your own hand, I'm. I. I mean, it's double devastating. There's all the devastation we're feeling for you. And then I'm just wondering what it's, like, for them and how they responded.

Nate Winterton [01:36:45] And we've talked about it since, and for a while, I wouldn't let anyone in my family talk about it, about my attempt. And then my mom, you know, she was a therapist, and she really wanted to talk about it, and she's like. She expressed her pain, and so did my dad. We all, like, went out to lunch and talked, and they felt partially angry because of how hard they did try to keep me alive as a baby, you know, and as a kid. And they were like. They were. They were angry that I didn't see the worth of my life, like, they saw the worth of mine because they put so much value into each of their children's lives, and they love each of us and saw us of infinite worth. And I didn't see that. I saw myself as just nothing. And. I didn't care if I lived or died because I didn't see my own worth. And so when they explained to me how sad that made them feel,

Margi Dehlin [01:38:04] it

Nate Winterton [01:38:04] kind of was like a light bulb for a moment. And I was like, okay, I need to start to see the worth inside of myself like they do. And if that means that I have to slowly step away from the church, then that's what I'm going to do. Because they. I remember my mom telling me, she was like, I'd rather see you alive and happy than dead. And a member of the church. She's like, so do what you need to do so you can stay around for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:44] What did it mean to you to hear that? Did it surprise you? Was that surprising?

Nate Winterton [01:38:49] Yes. It was only because in my. I created this whole scenario in my head that I was just gonna be shunned by everyone and everything because I heard so many stories of that happening to so many people and, like, kids being kicked out of their homes or like, I had a friend in junior high who came out as gay, and his dad was a stake president and kicked him out and said, you're no longer my son. And I didn't want that to be me later on. And I was terrified that I wouldn't have my siblings and my parents and no one. And I was so confused of what to do without the community of my ward, because I based my whole, like, friendships around that. And so I was like, well, how would I build a new community? What do I do to do that? And you have to start all over again. Like, you're in junior high on the first day. Like, okay, let's make some friends.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:43] Friends which that association isn't so great.

Nate Winterton [01:39:47] Exactly. Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:53] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [01:39:53] So it was a huge process of trying to figure that out. And for a long time, I didn't know. I was like a lost sheep. Because when your whole world is not just the church, but a specific community, and then that community is ripped from you because they don't love you, accept you, and they just judge you and hate you, it's. It's terrifying. You just have to kind of, like, go with the waves and see where you find friends. And then the universe naturally just brings people to you somehow, in my opinion.

John Dehlin [01:40:32] Can I ask you something about that? Because a lot of times orthodox Mormons will say, we don't hate gay people. We love gay people. We treat gay people really kind and we love them and we welcome them and we want them. But you said you felt like Mormons hated you.

Nate Winterton [01:40:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:40:46] Can you explain that? Especially.

Nate Winterton [01:40:48] I mean, I still do.

John Dehlin [01:40:49] But they'll say, we love gay people. They'll say it all the time.

Nate Winterton [01:40:52] And I, you know, I think that's a nice sentiment.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:55] I do.

Nate Winterton [01:40:57] I respect Mormons. I mean, some of my closest family and friends are active LDs, and I respect them and love them, but the church itself and its leaders does not. They don't. They.

John Dehlin [01:41:11] Why do you say that?

Nate Winterton [01:41:11] Because, okay, it would be like. Okay, it'd be like me to be like, oh, my God, I love straights. Yeah, you can be my friend if you're a straight, but. Okay, if you're going to be straight, you can, like, do it, but you have rules. You can't go sleep with this girl. You can't have a girlfriend if you want. You have to. You have to abide by us and look gay. You can be straight, but you need to look gay. Okay, so, like, dress this way, act this way. Don't touch a girl's hand, don't kiss her. Okay. You can't have a relationship with her if you want to be a friend with us gays. That's how the church treats the queer community.

John Dehlin [01:41:47] And you're saying that's not love?

Nate Winterton [01:41:49] No, that's not love. And if it is love, it's. It's love with rules. And love isn't supposed to be like that. Love isn't supposed to have specific tears or conditions. Condition. Thank you. Conditions to love is unconditional. If you're going to love someone, you do it without judgment, and they're doing the opposite.

John Dehlin [01:42:18] It's not like, I'll love you if. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

Nate Winterton [01:42:20] Exactly. No, it's just, I love you. Yeah, that's how it should be.

Coming Out to Family and Receiving Acceptance

John Dehlin [01:42:24] Real quick, how did your dad respond?

Nate Winterton [01:42:27] My dad, I didn't let him have a response, choice to respond. I didn't rate.

John Dehlin [01:42:31] Were you afraid?

Nate Winterton [01:42:32] I was terrified. He has a very conservative family from Roosevelt pioneer heritage. You know, help, like, was in the process of help founding the church. You know, like, very devout, has met a handful of gay people. Never really talked about the community, so we never really had the opportunity. And then he just proved me wrong. He was really mature about it, and I feel like he sensed that I was nervous to associate with him. And he just slowly showed through actions and consistency and proved to me that he loved me without judgment. And he said it multiple times to me, and he just loves me.

John Dehlin [01:43:23] What was that like to have dad accept you?

Nate Winterton [01:43:27] It was really nice. And it was really, like, freeing to, like, have that relationship that I never thought I would because I never allowed it. It wasn't him, it was me. I had a preconceived notion in my head about, like, what he would be like and how he would act, and he was the opposite. And for me to let down my walls and finally just let him love me like he wanted to was really hopeful. And we, like, had a loss in my family, and my dad and I have gained so much from it in a dark, beautiful way. And we've become really good friends because of it.

John Dehlin [01:44:07] I think I know why you may have been afraid to talk to him about it. There's this study called the Family Acceptance Project out of San Francisco State University with a scholar named Caitlin Ryan, who found that LGBT youth that are highly rejected by their family are three times more likely to engage in risky drug use, three times more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior, and eight times more likely to. I don't remember if it's either experience suicidal ideation or even attempt suicide, but, like, family rejection is the, from what we know, the most devastating and fatal thing to an LGBT youth. And so it is a trick. Probably rather not have that conversation than risk experience rejection. So it's.

Nate Winterton [01:44:56] You're right. Yeah, I know. I have a friend that I actually met through Tick Tock of all places, which your daughter's great at. Everyone should look at her. TikTok, It's Clara.

John Dehlin [01:45:06] Yeah, six foot sauropod.

Nate Winterton [01:45:07] There you go. Yeah, little shout out. But I met her through TikTok, and she's 59 and then of a trans woman experience. She started her transition in 1979 when she came out as trans, is 15 in 79. Her parents kicked her out in Ottawa, Canada. And it was the most devastating thing for her. And she did everything that you did. She did sex work, she did drugs, she did alcohol abuse. She did all of the things. And she said multiple times it was because her family rejected her and didn't consider her anymore. And she was able to build a new family, but she wouldn't have to go through half the trauma she did if her family would have accepted her. And I'm grateful that mine has.

John Dehlin [01:45:53] And many don't make it.

Nate Winterton [01:45:54] Many don't make it. She's like one of the few, especially from that generation. Any queer person from like the 70s or 80s, do you see them around? No. Because they didn't have love and acceptance and a lot of them ended their own lives or the AIDS crisis because no one would accept them and help them with that. And it's awful. And I feel like maybe this is rude to say. I feel like a lot of Mormon culture and maybe even just the church is in that like 80s mentality of like how people treated people with AIDS. I feel like it's like love from afar, you know, like a little pat on the head, but please don't touch me. And I feel like that's how the church treats a lot of queer people

John Dehlin [01:46:34] and that the church, Orthodox Mormons can say we love LGBT people all the time, but what you're saying is that's not enough.

Nate Winterton [01:46:42] Yeah, it's not. Put your money where your mouth is. If you want to stay in the church, then do work from within, actually try to make changes, like write to the leaders of the church or try to set up meetings because if you have enough money, they'll probably meet with you and actually try to make changes. Then don't just sit willy nilly while literally people are dying or people are being tortured. In the state of Utah, conversion therapy was legal and it only became illegal at the beginning of last year. And the Mormon Church was actively, vocally in newspapers, on the news, everything saying no, it was in 2019, I apologize, this was in 2019, actively saying, you know, we, they wanted to keep it legal, that it was okay to do to minors. And like I even did protests out of like the governor's like office. I did sit downs, all these things. And it didn't become legal till illegal till last year. And it first became. The bill first didn't pass because the church won that. And then we submitted it again and then we finally won.

John Dehlin [01:47:55] So the church fought, the church fought to keep it legal, conversion therapy, illegal, which would make sense that they're Exactly.

Nate Winterton [01:48:02] Even though Elder Oaks.

Elder Oaks, Electroshock Therapy, and Institutional Harm

John Dehlin [01:48:04] Well, I was gonna ask you about that. So recently. I'll just give you a chance to comment on that. Recently, Elder Oaks. So, first of all, electroshock therapy for being gay at BYU happened in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Fact. And there's no one that is disputing that, including the church and byu.

Nate Winterton [01:48:24] They hold it, they say it.

John Dehlin [01:48:27] So that's a fact. And Elder Oaks was president of BYU basically from like 71 until like 80, so all throughout the 70s, you know, so it is 100% factual. It's as factual that the earth revolves around the sun, that conversion therapy happened at BYU while Elder Oaks was president there. And last week, when Elder Oaks was publicly asked about that at the University of Virginia, he said that electroshock therapy ended before he ever became president. So there's two parts to that question. What was it? I mean, what was it like to hear him say that, knowing that, that that was factually untrue, that he was lying to the world as the number two ranking Mormon leader in the world? And. And not only was it happening while he was president and he lied about it. It was happening five years ago in Utah. It's been happening not just in the 80s and 90s, 2000s and the 2010s. What was all that like for you to. I mean, it almost feels like it'd be re. Traumatizing, but I don't want to plant that.

Nate Winterton [01:49:34] It wasn't traumatizing, but for me, it wasn't something I was surprised by, I think is the best way to put it.

John Dehlin [01:49:41] How's that?

Nate Winterton [01:49:42] Because Elder Oaks specifically loves to make a comment, and he loves to make a comment specifically about gay people. He's just, he's. I'm. I'm gonna be rude and a little bitchy, but he's just a homophobe. And it's factual that that happened. I. I personally know one person, you know, who went through that shock therapy at BYU in that. In the 70s. Elder Oaks was over it in the 70s. So obviously that's a lie. And it. With him making that statement, it did worry me, because then active people, devout Mormons, are going to be like, well, this is what Elder Oaks said. And so that's the fact. And I know, like, for myself, like, hold myself accountable, like, if a Mormon leader said something when I was active, I just completely agreed with it. I didn't do research. I didn't look into it. If they said it, I just was like, well, they're called by God. So I'm going to agree. And so I'm scared that that's what people will think, and then they'll diminish those of us who have gone through that type of thing with the church, and just then our stories won't be heard, or if they are heard, they won't be believed.

John Dehlin [01:51:02] Yeah. I'm so sorry that happened. Let's. I want to talk about two things at least before we close and anything else Margaret care. Want to bring up, but how do you rebound? Like, when you look at your Instagram photos, it's. It. It's hard to use any other word than beautiful to describe the photography. You. The light. It's just like light that comes forth from your Instagram page. I'm just trying to think, how do you go from such a dark upbringing that almost ended tragically to, like, finding a place of healing and light? Because they're. Take away the LGBTQ stuff, the gender identity stuff, which I want to talk about next, take away all that. Like, there's all sorts of people that experience dark, hard things. Losing their faith, getting divorced, losing a kid, having a loved one die. How do you. How did you rebound from a super low place to gaining confidence, gaining your mental health back? I don't want to act like everything's perfect now because it never is for anyone, but how did you go from a state of almost dying to becoming a light for so many people?

Finding a Way Back from a Very Dark Place

Nate Winterton [01:52:23] That's really kind of you to say thank you.

John Dehlin [01:52:28] I mean, Margi and Claire don't show up to every one of my interviews.

Nate Winterton [01:52:31] This is true. This is true. It's not usually a family affair. I.

John Dehlin [01:52:43] How do you pick yourself up and then heal and grow?

Nate Winterton [01:52:50] It's. It's gonna sound like a BS answer, but I honestly don't know. I think it's just something within me. I naturally. Even on days where I don't want to fight, my. My inner spirit makes me and it wants me to. And through a lot of therapy that I've done, like, good therapy, and through a lot of just deep conversations with loved ones, I've been able to just keep a fire within me. And through learning to, like, love myself, like, inwardly and also, like my outward appearance, it's made it so that I want to stay. I want to share and I want. I want people to know that even though hard times come and sometimes they just stay around constantly, they get better because there's always another day, and you never know what that new day is going to bring. So why not just hold on to see what it does.

John Dehlin [01:54:07] And to that person that is feeling like maybe they don't want to hold on, like it's too painful, it's too hard. If you want look in the camera, what would you say to them?

Nate Winterton [01:54:19] Is it this one? Okay. I feel like if you don't feel that you're safe enough to talk to anyone and that you're. That you're not feeling like you can fight anymore, I say fight for someone else. Fight for those who haven't got to fight and that have lost their lives. And if you're still not strong enough, please reach out for help, whether it's through a medical professional, a therapist, calling the suicide hotline, calling the Trevor project, just reach out and make sure that you stay. Because no matter what you're going through in life, it's not worth ending it. It's just not.

John Dehlin [01:55:10] Have you found that life is. Are you glad you're still here?

Nate Winterton [01:55:13] I guess I am. I am. I've. I have days, you know, where the depression kicks in or something like that. But I. I'm so grateful that I didn't succeed. I'm. I'm really grateful I left the Mormon Church, which I thought I would never

Margi Dehlin [01:55:29] say,

Nate Winterton [01:55:32] but because I left the Mormon Church and because of the events that have taken part in my life, I've been able to live a life. Now that I look at, I'm like, what the crap? How do I get to live this? And how. How. How is this real? It's almost like a euphoria at times.

Life Today and Coming Out as Non-Binary

John Dehlin [01:55:55] What are you doing in your life these days?

Nate Winterton [01:55:58] A lot of things. My main thing is, you know, I. I speak a lot, I try to help people, but my main passion is makeup. I do makeup on myself. I get hired for shoots.

John Dehlin [01:56:13] And then you do makeup for other

Nate Winterton [01:56:16] people as a makeup artist. And my goal is to become full time at that. Right now, I just don't have enough clients to do so. And then I do freelance modeling, and I love to create art through that. And, I mean, it's not a bad money either, but I love the creative process of it and how I can kind of, like when I was a kid in theater, dress up and create this role. It's really fun. So my life is just full of now, I guess, in short, just creating. Whenever I can, I create something that's all I want to do.

John Dehlin [01:56:54] So we. We started with, with a question about this. The gender is very different than. Than sexual identity. And it's almost like the past several decades have led to, you know, for corporations, now for TV shows, like being LG being LGB affirming is like, it's, it's almost become trendy to be pro gay or pro lesbian or pro bisexual, pro alternative sexuality or non normative sexuality. I feel like gender is still not understood and we're not anywhere near as far along in either understanding or, and, or being affirming around non normative gender identity expression. And so can you talk about your journey as it relates to gender and whatever you want to share about? Because people are not, sometimes they're, they're not understanding and sometimes they're outright mean or cruel about, about gender.

Nate Winterton [01:58:06] Yeah, you're right.

John Dehlin [01:58:07] And this is a relatively new, well, understanding for yourself, right?

Nate Winterton [01:58:12] Yeah, like publicly. Yeah. It's been an interesting ride for like a year. I've known I was non binary, but I didn't want to come out because of that, because I was nervous of what my fellow gay peers would think.

John Dehlin [01:58:32] But backing up before that, like, what is it? What does that mean to come to that term?

Nate Winterton [01:58:36] I mean that.

John Dehlin [01:58:38] What does the term mean and how do you arrive at it?

Nate Winterton [01:58:40] Yeah, so non binary for me, for me personally means I don't, I don't specify with a gender. For me, I'm just Nate. I, I'm not a, I'm not a him, he, I'm not a she, her.

John Dehlin [01:58:54] Because when you try to put on that identity of male, just doesn't fit female, man or woman, it just doesn't fit.

Nate Winterton [01:59:03] So for me it's just like I'm just me.

John Dehlin [01:59:06] And so if somebody says you're, you're a woman, what does that feel like?

Nate Winterton [01:59:12] I mean, they can call me that if they want. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:59:14] But if you. Inside you.

Nate Winterton [01:59:16] Oh yeah, it just doesn't fit.

John Dehlin [01:59:18] And if it's like, well, you're, you're clearly a man, like.

Nate Winterton [01:59:20] And I'm like, yeah, that doesn't fit either.

John Dehlin [01:59:22] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [01:59:23] Just because some days I. Like last night I went out for drinks with friends and a lot of people didn't recognize me because I didn't have makeup and like stuff on. I just, I was in like chinos and like a baseball cap and sneakers and they're like, nate, is that you? You know, like, yeah, that's me. Just how I was feeling tonight. But I'm still not like a man, not a woman. It's just I'm Nate. And for me it was like I was confused by it for a while because I didn't really even understand what non binary was. Like. I saw people talk about it on TikTok or Instagram and stuff like that, or Buzzfeed articles. And I just didn't get it. I was confused. I was like, well, there's two genders. And I was saying that as a gay person that was out and like that advocated for people. And after doing a lot of research and like, just keep reading. I'm like, wait, it feels like they're describing me. I think they're describing me. And then it just took me a while to come to terms with it and post it so people could respect my pronouns because I was nervous what the gay community, specifically gay male community would think. And I did it in like my coming out post for that. I was like, I've been really worried that like gay guys aren't going to want to take me on dates anymore. And that's been my main worry. I'm like. And the response back was wonderful. They were all like, we don't care, we still like go on dates with you and like all these fun things. But it's just a fear. It's a natural fear. Everyone's always scared if they're trying to be their full truth. And for me to be non binary isn't really anything special. I just like, I think it's just, it's just me, you know, it's just that that's it. I don't know how else to describe it. It's just me. I don't feel a gender. I just feel like Nate. And sometimes I'm really feminine. Other times I, I wear sweats and look like a mess. So it's just me.

John Dehlin [02:01:22] Maybe to disabuse a few of the misunderstandings, like it always starts with like, well, listen, John, there's two sexes. There's the male sex and the female sex. And it starts out that that's the, the first error. Right. I know there are not two sexes. Right.

Nate Winterton [02:01:35] You know, there's even like intersex and

John Dehlin [02:01:38] there are all sorts of variations.

Nate Winterton [02:01:40] There's all sorts of variations. There's so many. It's called people just actually have to do research and not be ignorant so that they could be an actor.

John Dehlin [02:01:47] There's, there's, there's.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:49] That's right,

John Dehlin [02:01:51] there's higher chromosomal variability than just XX or xy. And then there's anatomic variability where people are born with, with, with anatomy that, that is not stereotypical one or the other. Sometimes it's, sometimes they have both. Yeah. And so starting with Heavenly Father didn't just create. If you believe in Heavenly Father didn't just create men and Women. He created all sorts of variability for. For sex.

Nate Winterton [02:02:22] Yeah. And in my opinion, God is non binary. I. Because, like, I believe in a higher power, and I think they're our God, and I think everyone's made in their image. And so for me, I think they're non binary because if everyone's made in their image, they have to have a little bit of everything in them. And so I think it's a beautiful. I don't know what they look like being above that created us all and that they're non binary. I don't think it's a white dude with a white beard. That's like, in some paintings, he's very ripped. In some Mormon paintings, God has quite ripped white man.

Mormonism, Gender Identity, and the Binary

John Dehlin [02:02:54] But Mormons try and solve that problem by saying, well, it's a man and a woman or a man and a woman and a woman and a woman. That doesn't solve it for you?

Nate Winterton [02:03:02] No, Honestly, with them, I just roll my eyes, like I kind of just did, and just ignore them. They're just trying to start a fight and they won't. And I feel like at times I'm. I don't have the energy to try to help someone who doesn't want to

John Dehlin [02:03:15] learn and just to do a tiny bit more education. There's. Then we. Then, you know, there's. There's sex and then there's gender, and there's this. There's this perception that really there's two genders, that it's just, you're either a man or a woman. But once you really try and peel back that onion, what does it mean to be a man? Does that mean you have to like sports? Well, clearly, Nate didn't necessarily like sports growing up. And if you cry, is that what women do? Or men? And wait, if you're a lawyer, can you be? Yeah. Do you, like, only pink or blue? And all of a sudden, when you really try and nail someone down as what it means to be of the. You know, to be a man gendered as man or as woman, you realize that it really breaks down quickly. And we just have this huge spectrum and we're all on it on different dimensions.

Nate Winterton [02:04:05] Exactly. And it's like, I had a friend asked me. They're like, why is trans people in, like, the lgbt? Because it's not.

Guest [02:04:11] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [02:04:11] Like sexual sex.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:12] It's like.

Nate Winterton [02:04:13] Yeah, yeah. They're like, so, like, why are you. Because, like, you're not. It's not. It's not about your attraction.

John Dehlin [02:04:18] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [02:04:18] But they're like, it's because we're in the queer community, we were marginalized. They're very marginalized. You know, but it's not about their sexual orientation, but it's because they are a marginalized group that a lot of them actually do, like, are either gay, bi, or pan or something like that.

John Dehlin [02:04:33] Yeah. But just that gender. It turns out there's no gene for gender.

Nate Winterton [02:04:37] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:04:38] It's a social construct.

Nate Winterton [02:04:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:04:40] It's just. And. And if you.

Nate Winterton [02:04:41] Created by white old men.

John Dehlin [02:04:43] Yeah. And if you look at, like, what gender norms were 300, 400 years ago, men were wearing wigs and stopping the

Nate Winterton [02:04:51] French art, like hierarchy, or ancient Greek. Spartans learned this yesterday. They liked butt stuff.

John Dehlin [02:04:57] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [02:04:57] And I was like, these were the toughest guys. And they were. Yeah. And I was like, these were the manliest of manlyst men's. And they were doing butt stuff. And I'm sorry, what is more manly than being able to take a dick in the butt? I'm just saying. Okay, excuse the details, but that's. I think that's very powerful. Or you could be like Betty White. Who? She's like. I don't say, like, oh, wow. Like, she's got the. She's got balls, you know, she's like, I say I got vagina. Because, like, a vagina can take a hit up, a testicle can't take a pounding, I think.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:26] Yes.

Nate Winterton [02:05:27] Yes. Thank you. Good old Betty White.

John Dehlin [02:05:29] Yeah. And so. And so gender is a social construct. And so once you realize that and you realize how harmful. I mean, this is something my child Adrian has helped me understand. Once you understand that the gender binary, you know, there are probably societal benefits to having a gender binary. It makes everyone, you know, understand there's this path or that path, and everybody's got their role. But the gender binary can actually be very harmful, both to men and women.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:58] Harmful to everyone.

John Dehlin [02:06:00] How the gender binary can be harmful.

Nate Winterton [02:06:02] It's just completely toxic. It is point blank, period. Because I mean, for. At least in my view, like, from my world, I see it through like. Like the fashion industry, art industry, stuff like that they have a specific body type and everything that they want specifically. And it has to be a specific gender that wears that dress. But if you think about it, clothing doesn't have a gender. We're putting gender on clothing. It's just an article that you put on your body. So it doesn't matter if it says women's or men's. Like, it could. Anyone can wear it. And when someone's wearing something that isn't identified for their gender and someone makes Fun of them for that. That could be like. That could literally end someone's life. It could be the breaking point. You don't know what they've been through up to that point. So that queer person who chose to wear a dress that day could go home and kill themselves because you chose to make a rude comment out of ignorance?

John Dehlin [02:06:58] Yeah. Yeah. And then if you think about people assigned, you know, female at birth, women, you know, just how, like, just within Mormonism, if you were assigned female or to be a woman of birth, you get excluded from all sorts of leadership, of priesthood, power of activities, and you're kind of like channeled almost like cattle into this role of like, well, your job is to be a mommy and have lots of children and. And don't worry about your education and. Yeah, that career stuff. Leave that to the men. Like, if you just look at how this gender binary has.

Nate Winterton [02:07:36] So talk.

John Dehlin [02:07:37] Has affected women, but then it also hurts men because there's so many men that would rather stay with the kids or who don't want to feel the pressure. Burden. The pressure of what?

Nate Winterton [02:07:46] The. The pressure of being the manliest of man. Can't show weakness, can't show femininity. Can't. You can't ever be shown as, like, being down, you know, at all. They always have to have their guard up, have to be, like, tough, buff, and, like, ready to protect everyone. You can't have a moment of weakness where you want to be protected. And that's toxic because everybody has emotions and everyone has moments of weakness. And it's okay to show those moments of weakness. It's not okay to keep it bottled in because it's gonna affect you in other ways, whether physical health or mental health.

John Dehlin [02:08:21] Health. Yeah.

Nate Winterton [02:08:22] It's not healthy and it's. It's messed up also, just like, just how everyone in roles is treated within the church because, like, you know, like, the women, they're like, like everything you said, and then the men are just meant to be leaders and keep everything from the women. And it's like. It's just. It's just all sorts of messed up.

John Dehlin [02:08:44] Yeah. And then the pressure to be the

Nate Winterton [02:08:46] sole breadwinner for the home and make lots of money. And then the pressure of specifically, like, I'm from Utah County, a lot of, like, the women there are pressured to look a certain way. So a lot of them, you know, like, get filler or, you know, like, stuff done or, like, make sure that there's no gray hair showing. Certain name brands, high heels. High heels, you know, like, makeup, always On a little bit of Botox.

John Dehlin [02:09:13] Like, it's not that there's necessarily.

Nate Winterton [02:09:15] No. And nothing's wrong with that. I'm like, I. I mean, I love, you know, makeup, high heels, Botox, all that stuff. You know, I'll probably get it someday. But I'm just saying they're not doing it because they want to. A lot of them. I'm not saying all of them. Yeah. But they feel that pressure of looking like the perfect wife.

John Dehlin [02:09:34] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [02:09:35] Kind of like that Nicole Kidman movie where she was like a housewife robot.

Guest [02:09:39] Separate wives.

Nate Winterton [02:09:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:41] So it's not. And. And I. When I saw that, like, certain. I'll just say certain news outlets were now kind of declaring this war on gender that if somebody comes out as non binary or a transgender person, I mean, that's something we just obviously should mention, is that there are people that are born. Born, assigned a certain gender where in their mind, in their heart, in their body.

Nate Winterton [02:10:06] Doesn't compute.

John Dehlin [02:10:07] That does not fit at all. And. And that can be, you know, that's. That actually gender dysphoria can be a psychological condition that can be deadly unless they're given the opportunity to transition. It is a medical 100 at that point. That is a medical condition. It is not some sort of, like, trendy social fad. No, it's a matter of life and death.

Nate Winterton [02:10:29] Exactly. And a high percentage of the queer community struggle with gender dysphoria, whether if they're under the trans umbrella or not. Even just like. I mean, lesbians have a specific, like, stereotype what they're supposed to look like. Gay men have an awful one too, where I know a lot of gay men.

John Dehlin [02:10:46] There's a lot of eating disorders.

Nate Winterton [02:10:47] Have a lot of eating disorders. A lot. Whether it's anorexia or bulimia, you know, a lot of them have eating disorders. I mean, I was one of them, you know, and so it's like, it's very toxic and it's. It's. I wish it could change, but it's one of those things that can't change overnight. It's one of those things we have to work towards healing.

John Dehlin [02:11:10] But it's not that there's a war on gender. It's not like people are against.

Nate Winterton [02:11:14] Someone's trying to make a war, but no one's listening to it.

John Dehlin [02:11:16] Yeah, no, yeah. If somebody wants to identify as a man or woman, that's fine. It's not that we're trying. That anyone's trying to destroy gender. I think it's just saying there needs to Be more options, more variety, more ways of expression that isn't binary. And that's what non binary means.

Nate Winterton [02:11:34] Yeah. With gender, like all of like non binary and all of these things, like trans people, all of them were around forever.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:42] That's right.

Nate Winterton [02:11:43] It's not new. It's not new. It's just. People are just saying it's new because of like social media. But if you look back, like Brigham Young had a.

John Dehlin [02:11:52] A child who male. A child assigned male at birth who dressed as a woman. Oh, Brigham Young did. Yeah.

Nate Winterton [02:12:00] Wow. Did not know this one more in church. Your response?

Guest [02:12:04] Kidding.

Nate Winterton [02:12:09] It's just crazy because like, I mean look at French, like Marie Antoinette at the time, most of the guys had to be gay. They had to. I'm just saying they're walking around and there was like. And like in that area in that time in like that French aristocat area, they were fine with gay sex. And a lot of them had it, men and women and like it was just normal. And then just throughout time, like we go through spurts I've seen throughout history where like it's totally fine to be gay and do gay stuff. Not fine. Totally fine. Not fine. It's just, it's just very toxic and people are just repeating history.

John Dehlin [02:12:42] Yeah. So really quickly. One of the things people often struggle with that I know is kind of offensive is like why the they. Them pronouns and the, the common answer will be well those are. Those are pronouns basically restricted to plural. And now you're self identifying with pronouns that are perceived as being plural pronouns. And it. People are very unaffirming around that. How do you. And how do you explain that to people?

Margi Dehlin [02:13:12] We're gonna just, we're gonna. Right now that we're asking you to exert energy educating. You don't have to like.

John Dehlin [02:13:19] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:19] You can decline that because just out of respect for you. So thank you. Honestly you can. And we can move on.

John Dehlin [02:13:26] Thank you, Margi.

Nate Winterton [02:13:27] No problem. So like I'm not an educator, but in my opinion like for me and for some other non binary people I spoke to, it's just neither the like he him or she her. It just doesn't lay with me. It doesn't feel like that's my truth. And so I, that's why I ask people to say them. And it's not. It. If you look at grammar, it's not in like incorrect. Okay. So just like read an English book.

John Dehlin [02:13:54] Yeah, if, yeah, if, if somebody got an accident, you don't know their gender. They say somebody asks you, well, you Know who got in the accident? You would say, well, they got in the accident. Referring to a single person. If you don't know the gender.

Nate Winterton [02:14:06] Yeah. And you can't identify it. Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:14:08] So it is.

Nate Winterton [02:14:09] It's correct.

John Dehlin [02:14:10] Dramatically correct to use they. Them in reference to a single person.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:14] Not that it's really about grammar for anyone who's.

John Dehlin [02:14:17] No, but I mean, to take issue.

Nate Winterton [02:14:18] But exactly.

John Dehlin [02:14:19] Yeah. And Margi, thank you for that. I.

Nate Winterton [02:14:22] We.

John Dehlin [02:14:22] It is a very, very important part of being an ally to self educate and to never expect a member of any marginalized community to be the educator. I should have started with that. So thank you, Margi, for helping us remember that. That, that. And this is something. We have several LGBTQ children. Lgbtqia.

Nate Winterton [02:14:45] You do. Soon you'll have children. You'll have the whole Alphabet.

John Dehlin [02:14:48] We're getting there. But that's something that we have to work on as people in. In kind of people who want to love. Yeah, well, yeah. To do your own education, listen to podcasts, read books, watch documentaries and. And go on the Internet and Google stuff and learn so that you don't put these people add additional stress to what can already be kind of a difficult experience.

Nate Winterton [02:15:17] 100.

John Dehlin [02:15:18] Yeah. And we're also grateful that you are willing to come on and tell your story, because telling your story is a way people can learn.

Nate Winterton [02:15:26] It's true. That's one reason I do it, so that people can see my truth and also just hopefully learn something from it and grow from it.

John Dehlin [02:15:35] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:35] And I'm not done. I have a couple.

John Dehlin [02:15:37] Yeah. Yeah. Margi and Carol, if you guys have any additional questions.

Joy, Community, Dancing, and What Healing Looks Like

Margi Dehlin [02:15:40] Okay. So I'm really curious about. Let's say you're in those kind of internally perilous moments. What are your. Have you found things that really your go to's, things that comfort you, things that, you know, over time you've learned, help you ground yourself or come back to yourself or do you feel it? Like, I'm just kind of curious, you know, when you're in those vulnerable. Right. Moments of what. What do you do?

Nate Winterton [02:16:22] Great question. For me, it's definitely been a learning process of what. Of what works for me. And for me, I've learned that when I'm in those headspaces or those dark places, one thing I have to do is journal. So whether it's on my phone or like if I have a notepad near me, I just have to write down every single thought I have until they don't come anymore. And then I see that it helps me walk through that Process so that I can, like, breathe again. And then also just calling a loved one, it's being like, hey, like, this is. This is what I'm feeling. This is what I'm going through. Can you just listen to me? You don't have to respond, but if you do, that's fine, too. I think those are my main two.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:12] That's beautiful. So in that, I'm gonna. So you have good love. You've got now you have people.

Nate Winterton [02:17:19] I do. I have a. I have a tribe.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:22] You do. I'm so happy to hear that.

Nate Winterton [02:17:24] Yeah. I have a. I have a really good tribe, and they keep me safe. I keep them safe. They. They love me, and I love them, and that's all that matters.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:39] Yes. Okay. So can I ask, within your tribe, what does joy, love, aliveness look like for you all? What do you love to do? What do you like? If we were going to just see Nate, you mentioned creating. Huh. And I can so see that about you. But what else would we see in this big love life that you're kind of.

Nate Winterton [02:18:06] What is dancing? My friends and I, we love to go dancing. It's something that you just can just put on loud music and just escape and dance it out.

John Dehlin [02:18:19] Sun trap. Where?

Nate Winterton [02:18:20] Sun trap. I love sun trap if it's with the right gang. Also, I like, like, Sky. Sky is quite fun. It's a club. It's a hetero club. But I just stay in a booth and then I'm fine because I don't have to deal with the straights.

Guest [02:18:39] And then,

Nate Winterton [02:18:42] honestly. Well, me, my closest friend, we just jam out to Taylor swift. Yeah. Via FaceTime and just. And Bop Dior, you know, I love that. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:53] Okay. My last one is around healing.

Nate Winterton [02:18:56] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:57] So I think it can be very difficult absorbing messages around brokenness or unworthiness. And I was just curious for you how you would. How you think about yourself. And I realize that can be complicated maybe, and it depends on the moment in any given day, clearly. But, like, what does healing look like for you?

Nate Winterton [02:19:22] Ooh, It's not linear. I think my healing is just like a giant wave because I have some really good moments in my life and they, like, last for a while and then they get really dark. And then it's like all the healing I did, I feel like just backpedals. But then it comes back after I remind myself. And I think for me, healing just healing is messy. For me, that's what my healing looks like. It looks messy but progressing. Yeah. Didn't mean to rhyme that, but it did Look.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:06] Look what you did there.

Nate Winterton [02:20:07] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:09] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [02:20:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:10] Beautiful.

Nate Winterton [02:20:11] Yeah. That's what my healing would be like.

John Dehlin [02:20:15] Kara, Any. Any questions for Nate? I. I have one before we end, but I want to give you a shot, too.

Guest [02:20:22] I wrote down part of this because I wanted to get this right, because I. My brain has gone through some major shifts in the last couple years.

John Dehlin [02:20:29] She's just like, two years. Two years into this.

Nate Winterton [02:20:31] Oh, she's a fresh one.

Guest [02:20:34] And I want somebody.

Nate Winterton [02:20:35] She's a young one.

Guest [02:20:36] Yeah. And like Nate said, that they don't have the brain to engage with people who won't take the time to educate themselves. And I, Cara, as somebody who, as recent as two years ago, is a very conservative loudmouth, as a Mormon on Twitter and elsewhere, I will. I will take the time for listeners. You can DM me. I will take the time to help you. Because it took a long time and it was weird for me to start undoing my very conservative Mormon conditioning to understand different people on the LGBTQIA spectrum, you know, and so I just wanted to a share a psa, a little tip for people who are having a hard time. Because I just met Nate today and I already love you so much.

Nate Winterton [02:21:16] I know.

Guest [02:21:17] And I get protective, whether it's like Lena and Sal coming in here or, like, you know, just different people. It hurts me that people could hear this story and still not make the connection between what you went through, why you chose to step away from the church, why you identify, the way that you do, the way that you look, the way they present, that there are still people are going to come after you and judge you. And I just want to share. One quick tip is when you are about to judge someone, I had to learn this. When you're about to judge someone or you're about to feel judged, stop and ask a question. And the question that usually comes to my mind is, why do I feel the need? When I'm thinking in my little, like, kind of like, ultra conservative Mormon brain, my first question is, why do I feel the need to care about somebody's. What is it within me that needs to tell somebody there's only two genders? What is it within me that needs to go on Twitter and go spread hate? And for me, it was a lifetime of conditioning that starting off with might is right. Right as might. Like, the kind of God I worship would want me to do this.

Nate Winterton [02:22:13] Yeah.

Messages for Loved Ones and Current Spiritual Beliefs

Guest [02:22:13] So do you have a message to people who you're probably going to, you know, have before on Instagram, all around, what would your message be to People who are coming at you with judgment for all of the things that you just shared, the choices that you made to go to the conversion therapy that you went to. If you just have like one all encompassing, like, last message to leave about people who are going to say some unkind things, what would it. What would you like to leave with that?

Nate Winterton [02:22:40] Most of my words came to mind, but I won't use those. Say whatever, basically. But I would say I was like, honestly, just shut your mouth. Because if you're not going to come at me with at least a willingness to learn or listen, then I think you need to do some more inner work before you. Before you come to my page and. Or listen to finish listening to my story. And if you still want to combat it, I bet Clara would be happy to win those battles. I've heard that you're quite good at those.

Guest [02:23:19] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [02:23:20] But I guess, yeah. Just basically like don't come for me and F off

John Dehlin [02:23:28] or face. Face carers wrath.

Nate Winterton [02:23:30] Exactly.

Guest [02:23:31] Just people ask questions.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:33] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [02:23:33] Be willing to learn. Be a sponge. I love it. Be open. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:38] And it's like Google in these ways. Super easy to use.

Nate Winterton [02:23:43] Yeah. You literally have literally just the world at your fingertips.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:46] Google what it means to use they, them pronouns. Use a human's pronouns. See the research on suicidality and what it means to their mental health when you do like, it's. It's so it's at your fingertips. And then just because it was really a lovely interview. In addition to Nate's interviews is Alok Fade Menon's interview on Man Enough podcast. And just this idea I love where people get really hung up on educating. Like having to educate. And you don't need to be educated to that. It's not a lack of education that shows up in how we treat each other. It's a lack of compassion. 100. So don't confuse the two. And I'm crediting Alok on that. But if you want just a general introduction, that's a great interview.

Nate Winterton [02:24:40] And they're amazing at educating on that stuff.

John Dehlin [02:24:44] We'll add that to the show notes for sure.

Nate Winterton [02:24:46] Alok.

Guest [02:24:47] Yeah. Especially for me when I was on Twitter having discussions with trans people, non binary people trying to ask questions and understand. The first thing that I had to break down in my head was maybe because I had the idea the heavenly father and heavenly mother. I was trying to ignore the polygamous wives that were probably also heavenly mothers. But like I was trying to say no because God did not make a mistake or anything. And just being confronted with More and more information, choosing empathy over the orthodoxy that I've been taught broke down that wall one by one until I had enough evidence and empathy to understand that I was wrong. And it. It broke a lot of my. My Mormon shelf, you could say. And I'm so glad that it did, because it breaks my heart that there would be anybody who would hold back from loving somebody as amazing as you.

Nate Winterton [02:25:33] So thank you. So kind.

John Dehlin [02:25:35] Amen.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:36] Oh, my gosh.

Nate Winterton [02:25:37] Hallelujah.

John Dehlin [02:25:37] Can I get an amen, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [02:25:39] All the amen. All the amens.

John Dehlin [02:25:43] All right. Okay, last question for me. Any. How would you describe now your religious and or spiritual beliefs? Have you looked in other churches? Do you.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:54] What.

John Dehlin [02:25:55] What are your thoughts about a divine being? Do you have thoughts about Jesus, spirituality? Talk about any of that?

Nate Winterton [02:26:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:04] Or none of it.

Nate Winterton [02:26:06] I'll talk about it. I like talking about it. So when I first left the church, I was like, I'm just gonna be atheist. So, like, for a while I didn't believe in anything. And then I went through the phase of hippie, dippy, trippy, all in between. So I was all about, like, be with oneself and incense and crystals and like, like I went one dream to the next. And then now I'm like, in, like. I found the middle way. So I would consider myself spiritual. I'm not a part of an organization. For a while I thought I would be Jewish because my aunts, some of my ancestors are on my mom's side. But then I was like, they actually like a strict Jew doesn't like the gays. So I was like, never mind that. So then I just found spirituality. I believe that there is a God. Like I said, I think God's like non binary. I think that there this being. I don't know specifically what, but I know that we're all created in like an image of them. I do feel like we were created from a higher being. And I feel like we're all able. I don't think we just die and that's it. I think that we move on and I think we continue progressing in a different way. I just don't know how because I'm not God. I'm not dead either, so I can't tell you. And I believe Jesus was real. I don't think Jesus was the Son of God, though. I think he was like a good person. I feel like he was just like almost like a Catholic saint where he did a lot of good things and people praised him, but I don't think he was the Son of God. I Think he was just a really good man that should be honored, but not. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:53] You still pray?

Nate Winterton [02:27:55] I do. I pray. I pray. I pray to God and my mom and I. I talk to them, and I have them help me through my daily life.

John Dehlin [02:28:03] Your mom's passed away.

Nate Winterton [02:28:05] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:28:05] Sorry.

Nate Winterton [02:28:06] She recently passed away. Yep. And so I pray to them, and they give me strength.

John Dehlin [02:28:12] Beautiful.

Nate Winterton [02:28:13] Yeah, it's. It's been. It's been a grounding process. The loss of someone really makes you think about spirituality and makes you think what you think is real. I don't have Covid guys letting the audience know. Got a dry throat. I'm vaxxed.

John Dehlin [02:28:31] And you're still close with your dad?

Nate Winterton [02:28:33] Yeah. Yeah. So we actually have a house together. When my mom was really sick, I moved home to spend time with her, and then she passed, and we've just been currently helping each other heal from grief, and so we're just like, roommates. He has the top half of the house, I have the bottom half, and I just kind of have, like, a little bachelor pad.

John Dehlin [02:28:58] Love it.

Nate Winterton [02:28:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:59] And you're single?

Nate Winterton [02:29:00] I'm single, which means I can mingle. If anyone wants to take me on a date, I don't mind that.

John Dehlin [02:29:08] What's your type? If you want to describe. I don't.

Nate Winterton [02:29:11] Yeah, I hate this question because.

John Dehlin [02:29:12] Okay, don't answer.

Nate Winterton [02:29:13] No, it's not, like, a bad question. It's just, like, my friends ask me because they tried to set me up. Like, what's your type, Nathan? What's your type? I was like, well, shoot,

John Dehlin [02:29:23] guys.

Nate Winterton [02:29:24] Well, very much guys, they need a penis. And then I kind of do. Like, I'm quite feminine, so I like someone who just feels more like a protector in a way. A little stronger. They don't have to be, like, muscular, but I don't mind a little facial hair. Facial hair is nice. And the race doesn't matter. But just a really good person. Someone who's nice. Someone who shows love and receives love and that is willing to learn. And a good credit score.

Guest [02:30:06] People always leave that out.

Nate Winterton [02:30:07] I know it's important, especially if you move in together. You need a good credit score in apartments.

Guest [02:30:12] Who's your celebrity crush?

Nate Winterton [02:30:13] Ooh.

John Dehlin [02:30:15] Ooh. Good question. Possibly the best question of the day.

Nate Winterton [02:30:18] Well, when I was a kid, my celebrity crush was Danny Phantom from a Nickelodeon TV show. I thought he was really. I thought he was really cute. I bet Clara knows who he is. Right, Clara? You don't.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:29] We didn't watch. Yes.

Nate Winterton [02:30:30] Oh, well, he was like, this, like, guy that was like, half ghost, half human, but he was quite cute, but human, I would have to say. Let's think for a minute. Andy Samberg.

Guest [02:30:46] Great choice. Great choice.

Nate Winterton [02:30:48] He is like, especially in, like, freaking. The cop show.

Guest [02:30:53] Brooklyn nine. Nine.

Nate Winterton [02:30:54] Yeah. Brooklyn nine. Nine.

Guest [02:30:55] You're like a funny guy.

Nate Winterton [02:30:56] Yes. And he's handsome, though, at the same time. And, you know, he's like, good with kids because he's a dad, which is attractive. He's just like, kind of goofy, but handsome.

Guest [02:31:06] Lonely island.

Nate Winterton [02:31:07] Yeah. Andy Samberg. I think he's my celebrity crush.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:11] Oh, yes, Sorry. Just got a visual.

Nate Winterton [02:31:15] Oh, she's showing.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:16] She's showing. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:17] Do you have a question mark?

Margi Dehlin [02:31:18] Yeah. Not to like, because we've gone kind of lighter, but, you know, I remembered another thing that I really loved having lost my dad was your loss of your mom. What would you say, you know, what do you remember really loving about her? What lives on? Do you feel like of her and you.

Remembering Nate's Mother and Closing Reflections

Nate Winterton [02:31:41] Her creativity. She could sew anything. She was an amazing crocheter. She learned from her great grandma who, like, learned during the Victorian times and the way she loved. She was one of those people that she. She constantly gave of herself. Whenever she saw someone that was internally hurting, like, mentally or spiritually, she would drop everything to see if once she could help them or heal them or just listen. And I think that's something that she's given me to live on with, is that I really try to create beautiful things and grow those talents and I try to make sure that others are healing. And if you're broken, I'll listen to you. And I think that's something she's given to me, thankfully.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:46] Yeah. I love it. Thank you for sharing.

Nate Winterton [02:32:48] Yeah. Thank you for asking her. Great question. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:52] Well, this has been such a lovely Sunday.

Nate Winterton [02:32:55] I know, right? We went to church.

Guest [02:32:57] Take me to church.

John Dehlin [02:32:59] Yeah, you took us to church.

Nate Winterton [02:33:01] I did.

John Dehlin [02:33:02] Thank you for taking us to church.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:04] The best church.

John Dehlin [02:33:05] No, you are. You are a lovely human and we are just really honored that you would. Stories are sacred, and we had to wait months, but you were willing to share your story with us. It's sacred and it's beautiful and it's inspiring and. And it's trans awareness week.

Nate Winterton [02:33:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:27] And it's electroshock therapy is not a thing week within Mormonism. And it's almost like the angels conspired to have this.

Nate Winterton [02:33:37] This happen to have us gather. Yeah, I agree. It totally feels like that. And it's just been, honestly, a lovely time. I was anxious about nothing like I always am. And so it was just a good old time, and I'm really grateful for this experience and that your audience will be able to hear it and listen and hopefully learn.

John Dehlin [02:33:57] Well, it's beautiful. Well, thank you so much on behalf of all of us and our listeners. If people want to follow you and. Or support you, what are all the socials that you want to shout out?

Nate Winterton [02:34:09] Yeah. So, honestly, the only social I would shout out is just my Instagram. It's Nate underscore W I n. I would love for y' all to join my little community there and hear some insightful words, see some pretty pictures, sometimes a good songwreck. And then, yeah, also, if you just want to give money to a queer person, I'm just gonna be blatant. You can Venmo me. You gotta Venmo. Yeah. What's your Venmo? Nathan Dash Winterton, if you want to Venmo me for the guilt of my trauma. I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:48] I'm kidding.

John Dehlin [02:34:48] No, no, send.

Nate Winterton [02:34:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:50] I challenge my listeners to send at least $1,000.

Nate Winterton [02:34:53] Oh, my God. No, but that was a joke. But, yeah, anyways, just the Instagram and.

John Dehlin [02:34:58] Yeah, anyways, yeah, well, that all.

Nate Winterton [02:35:01] TikTok's basically like a Fenster. It's nothing fancy or pretty like my Instagram. So, yeah, just it's. Nate went on that, too. But Instagram is where I'm most active and where I communicate with everyone.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:14] Beautiful. Beautiful. We challenge everyone to send me all the love.

John Dehlin [02:35:18] All the love and money.

Guest [02:35:21] John brings it back to the money.

John Dehlin [02:35:26] All right.

Guest [02:35:27] We always talk about sustainability. It's not all easy to be sustainably this beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:31] Right.

Nate Winterton [02:35:32] It's a lot of work.

Guest [02:35:33] It's a lot of work. Sustainability.

Nate Winterton [02:35:35] Always spackle over sandpaper.

John Dehlin [02:35:41] All right, well, Margi, it's so nice to have you. Thank you for joining us today. I know just your presence made Nate feel a lot more comfortable.

Nate Winterton [02:35:49] It did. It was really nice to. Because I've known. I've followed you for probably since last year. Would you say so? Like, almost two years. And then same with Clara. We've been like, little Insta buddies. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:02] Clara, thanks for joining us today.

Nate Winterton [02:36:03] I know you even had a kid in here. I mean, we know you've had a kid.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:09] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [02:36:09] It's been nice.

John Dehlin [02:36:11] Yeah. Well, thanks, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:12] It was a gift for us.

Nate Winterton [02:36:13] Thank you. It was a gift for me and Kara.

John Dehlin [02:36:16] You make Mormon stories better.

Guest [02:36:18] I'm really just wishing I had, like, a Margi Dillon in my ear at all times, just telling me what to do and what to say in life and in this job, because I appreciate Margi coming today. I love sitting across from you.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:29] Right back at you, Cara. I think you're doing just fine on your own. Can I say.

Guest [02:36:32] All right.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:33] In the ear nest, she's like, I'll take it.

Guest [02:36:36] And of course, Clara. Right, thank you. It's been good.

Nate Winterton [02:36:39] Always that position, too. It's so funny. I don't know why

Guest [02:36:43] us tall girls, we know what it's like when you just gotta.

Nate Winterton [02:36:46] Because aren't you like, what, six foot?

Guest [02:36:48] Yeah.

Nate Winterton [02:36:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:50] All right, well, thanks again, Cara and Margi and listeners, thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Please support Nate, follow Nate and give them all the love and support that they need and deserve. And Please love your LGBTQIA+ friends and family members. Even if you think, even if you're under the misconception that no one close to you is, you know, fits within the LGBTQIA realm, you're probably wrong. They probably just haven't come out to you yet. And by the way, this gender. Gender identity is, is. Is going to be touching more and more people as more and more people feel comfortable coming out. So whether it's your kids or grandkids, you are very likely to be touched by gender diversity sometime very soon, if you haven't already. And so for all those reasons and just because it's kind and loving, like, let's be supportive. And as we are supportive of people along the sexual identity and, or gender identity spectrum, we're just going to make everybody feel more safe, more accepted, more loved, and we'll all benefit because everyone will be able to be their full, true selves. We'll lose a lot less people, and we'll have people thriving in their roles and identities throughout society and. And everything will flourish, I think. So it's a win, win for everybody just to choose, love to choose. Embracing people wherever they, however they show up. And so do that, please. And thanks. Please support Encircle. Please support the Trevor Project. Please support Equality Utah. Troy Williams. Please support the. There's a Utah lgbt.

Nate Winterton [02:38:40] The, The Pride Center. The Pride center would always need help and donations, and they're always looking for volunteers specifically to help with the kids during the week and the afternoon. So I would suggest reaching out to the Utah Pride center or your local Pride center, wherever you may be, because they, they kind of always get on the back burner.

John Dehlin [02:38:59] And nationally, there's the Human Rights Campaign.

Nate Winterton [02:39:01] Yes, the hrc. I'm actually a volunteer on them. I've been on the board a couple times. They're fabulous, and they do so much good work. I would highly suggest checking out the hrc, donating it if you can, or just volunteering. That's what I do. I just volunteer and give up my time.

John Dehlin [02:39:18] Beautiful. All right. And we're gonna end with that. Thanks, everybody. You take care. Be kind to each other, love each other, and we'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.