Interviewing Two Sisters on Mormon Stories

Hayley Rall [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Hayley Rall. I am guest hosting today on Mormon Stories, and I am happy and honored to be here. As always. I am joined by the wonderful Gerardo, who will be co hosting today.

Gerardo Sumano [00:00:16] Hey, everybody.

Hayley Rall [00:00:16] And we have two wonderful guests, Lexi and Sydney. Hello. A set of sisters that we're interviewing today. How are you both doing? Feeling excited?

Lexi [00:00:27] I'm pretty excited, yeah.

Hayley Rall [00:00:28] Nervous? Any nerves?

Sydney [00:00:30] Yeah, a little. A little nervous.

Hayley Rall [00:00:32] But it's a big deal, right? It's a big story to tell. But I'm so excited to get into your journeys with Mormonism. We're going to kind of be talking about obviously, both of your stories and kind of where they intertwine and how you two kind of informed each other's stories, and I can't wait to get into it all. Before we get started, I want to ask what your intention is in coming on Mormon Stories. Why are you hoping to share your Mormon story today? Whoever wants to start?

Share Your Mormon Story on Mormon Stories

Sydney [00:01:04] I feel like so in my deconstructing journey and, like, leaving the church, I used Mormon stories as, like, a tool to help me to make sense of, like, what I believe and what I had experienced. And then I also, like, live outside of, like, Mormon concentrated areas. So, like, I live in Ohio. And when I share my background of, like, having left a high demand religion, although most of the people I talk to have never been Mormon and aren't super familiar with, like, our faith, a lot of people have, like, discomfort around their religious experiences, regardless of, like, how deeply they were raised religiously or whatever. I feel like just kind of in. In the United States especially, like, a lot of people have kind of discomfort around that. So. Yeah, so sharing my story is hopefully going to be helpful to other people to kind of rationalize or understand some of the experiences that they've had as well.

Hayley Rall [00:02:22] I love that. Thank you. Yeah, I think religion, it seems maybe niche in some ways, specifically Mormonism. But it is really cool how even if people didn't grow up religious, I think there's a lot of themes of someone's religious story that people can relate to. So I appreciate you mentioning that. What about you, Lexi?

Lexi [00:02:45] I think going off of what Sydney said, there's a lot of different reasons people walk away from high demanding religions, and not every story is the same. So as with, like, with Mormon stories, there's a lot of people who come in who have such different experiences, and I feel like the more people are sharing, the less people feel alone. And like, we are sisters. We're not from Utah. We grew up in Ohio. We joined the church later on, and I'm sure there's other people out there. Right. That are gonna experience the same things, and I am hoping that this can help reach more audiences, not just in Utah, where there's those, like, lone Mormons swimming around.

Hayley Rall [00:03:24] Totally. Yeah. That shedding light on the variety of Mormon experiences, I think, is also really powerful to that same. You know, to the point you made, because, yeah, there are definitely a lot of Utah Mormons, but that's not always the story, and I think it's obviously shapes in a huge way what your experience was like with the church. Thanks for that. I'm really excited to get into it. You kind of alluded to this, Lexi, but let's just start. And if you can tell me where Mormonism first entered your lives. You're pointing to Sidney to take that off.

My Story of Coming Out in the Mormon Church

Sydney [00:03:59] I'm a family historian.

Hayley Rall [00:04:01] Perfect.

Gerardo Sumano [00:04:02] Well, I just want to say really quickly, just so everyone knows. I mean, Sydney and I became really good friends when we were at BYU Idaho, and that's where we met the first time. I was still a believing gay member of the church attending BYU Idaho, and she was one of the first people I came out to at BYU Idaho, and I told her about Zach when I met Zach, and we were really good friends and really supportive throughout the entire thing as we dated and then eventually married while going to BYU Idaho. So, yeah, that's another reason why Sydney's here. But she has definitely a really interesting story. But anyway, do you want to.

Sydney [00:04:48] I'm an EPO baby. That's how I got on the podcast,

Hayley Rall [00:04:52] you know, the one and only Gerardo.

Sydney [00:04:57] Yeah. So our family. I guess so. My mom was the first person to join the church. When she was, like, middle school age, her family joined the church. So her mom, her, and then her three younger brothers, but kind of had, like, a short stint of going to church. They just were baptized, went for a little bit, and then kind of stopped going.

Hayley Rall [00:05:22] Were they baptized by missionaries? How did they come?

Sydney [00:05:25] Yeah, they were baptized by missionaries and were drawn to the kind of service aspect of the church, like service that was provided to their family. So that's kind of the. The story of how they joined the church. And then my mom kind of, like, was in and out of the church, like, in her young adulthood. And then when she married our dad, he was not a member of the church, but when. So Alexis and I have an older brother. Alexi and I have an older brother. So when he and I were Both, like, really little. Our dad joined the church. Our parents were married in the church. Alexis was born. And then later, when our parents were getting divorced, there was, like, a lot of pressure on my mom to, like, stay married to my dad because they had gotten married in the temple. And she was told that, like, if our dad wasn't doing what he was supposed to be doing, like, in regards to his, like, covenants, that. That basically she didn't have any promise of, like, being with us, like, her children for eternity. So she was like, okay, then why would I go to church? So that's kind of where our family stopped going to church. So we kind of went for like, a little bit when we were really young. And then.

Hayley Rall [00:07:13] Can I just clarify really quick? So you're saying your dad, though he was baptized in the church and your parents got married in the temple, dad stopped keeping Mormon commandments doing the Mormon way, is that right?

Sydney [00:07:26] Yes.

Hayley Rall [00:07:27] And then that led to your mom realizing, okay, well, if I'm not going to get the promise of an eternal family because based on my husband, then why would I continue attending church?

Sydney [00:07:37] Yeah, exactly.

Hayley Rall [00:07:38] And how old were you at that point? You said quite young.

Sydney [00:07:41] Yeah. So when my parents separated, I was like, going into first grade, so, like six years old. And then so Lexi was like two years old. So we were pretty young.

Lexi [00:07:55] I think one of the things too is, like, it wasn't just our dad straight away from the church and was like, this isn't true. It was like he was pretty abusive to, like, our mom and started to be. I don't remember it being me because I was also baby. But to like, Sydney and my older brother and the fact that her bishop was like, no, you still have to stay with that. I feel like that's where a lot of those issues were. So it wasn't just he stopped believing. It was he is being abusive and the church is telling my mom that she needs to stay with him or she's not gonna be with her family for the rest of her life.

Hayley Rall [00:08:26] Got it. Yeah. So getting the messaging of stay with this abusive person in order just to maintain the eternal family unit. Wow. Yeah. Good for your mom for calling that out for what that is. Yeah, she's not great.

Lexi [00:08:40] She's the coolest.

Hayley Rall [00:08:41] Yeah. Sounds like it's okay. So at that point, you're kids, and then it seems like Mormonism must enter the picture again later. So when does it pop back up then for you?

How the Missionaries Came to My

Sydney [00:08:53] Yeah. So several years after that, our mom got remarried to our stepdad, who was also not A Mormon or like, not religious at all. They got married. They're coming up on their like 17 year anniversary, like next week, I think. Congrats. Yeah. So they got married and then it was still a few years after that. So I was like 16 that the missionaries came to our house just to like, you know how they stop in, show up. Yeah, they just show up. So they came to our house and it. My mom and I were both home, but my mom was like upstairs sleeping, but I was like, yeah, guys, come on in. And so they came in.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:45] Do you know if they stopped by because of the records of the church that she. They were still members. And then you were like, potentially, I'm assuming.

Sydney [00:09:52] Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. And we had like, during our years of like being inactive in the church, people would stop by, like, missionaries would come by or like people from the church. So we were like. I was, I recognized that we were like, Mormon, I guess, but I, I didn't think, like, I was just like, oh, yeah, like we're Mormon. But like, I don't, I didn't know literally anything about, like, anything about the church.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:22] Yeah.

Sydney [00:10:23] So when the missionaries came and they were talking to me, they were like, so, like, what do you know about the Book of Mormon? And I was like, I don't. I don't know any. Like, I don't know what that is really. And they were like, oh, okay. And I felt kind of like guilty, like, oh, I should know because I think I'm Mormon. I really don't. Like, I don't know. So they were like, okay, like, well, what do you know about Jesus Christ? And I was like, I don't know anything about Jesus Christ. Like, and I felt like, bad, like, I should know.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:53] Those are the answers that missionaries love, though.

Hayley Rall [00:10:56] Yeah. You are the perfect.

Sydney [00:10:58] The perfect target. Exactly. We were like, like the golden family. Right? So, like, after that, after they left, I like, went upstairs and woke up my mom and I was like, the missionaries came and they asked me what I know and I don't know anything. And like, I think we should go to church. And she was like, okay. And then we just like, that Sunday started going to church and like, never really stopped until the future.

Hayley Rall [00:11:25] Yeah. Those missionaries are probably thrilled.

Sydney [00:11:28] Yes.

Hayley Rall [00:11:29] I mean, to have a full family brought back to activity by that, that one encounter, that's a huge deal. Before you went back to church, you said you knew you were a Mormon in some sense, but didn't really know much about it. Did you have any feel for how Mormons were perceived in Your community, What was it like at that time? How did you even connect with the word Mormon, if that makes sense because you were living in Ohio and I'm curious if you had any concept of how other people viewed Mormons or if you were just too young to really care about any of that at that point.

Marissa on Mormons and How They're Seen

Sydney [00:12:08] Yeah, I think people don't really view Mormons or at the time, they don't think about it. Yeah, they just don't think about it or they're just totally not familiar at all. So sometimes we would tell people we started going to church, it was like me and Lexi and she, I had been baptized already, like, and another like small stint of like activity when I was younger, but Lexi had not. So she got baptized and our stepdad got baptized. And when we would share this with like our friends or whatever, they'd be like, what is Mormons? Like, I've never heard of that. Or like, yeah, so we, we would share because we were like good new member missionaries, like inviting people like, do you want to come? My sister's getting baptized. And we had a bunch of friends that we invited to speak with the missionaries and. But yeah, mostly like nobody really knew what it was unless they knew us. And they were like, oh yeah, the Wingate girls. Like, they're Mormons. They're Mormons. Yeah, exactly.

Hayley Rall [00:13:15] Okay. So there wasn't any bad sentiment or anything. It was just more so people didn't really know what.

Sydney [00:13:21] Yeah, and my experience, I don't know

Lexi [00:13:23] if, yeah, my experience was the same because I also feel like for the most part, like it was just me and Sydney in our high school. Like, there's another family in our high school. But it was a pretty big high school. And it was until like we went on our missions that people were like, oh, so like, what is this? But before that I don't think I had ever heard of Mormon. I didn't even like associate us with like Mormons. And so her saying that, I'm just like, oh yeah, like that's cool. But I think I was just too little to really comprehend it.

Hayley Rall [00:13:53] Yeah, makes sense.

When Did You Get Baptized As A Convert?

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:56] I am curious because when you are going to get baptized as a convert, you were 16, you said there are things that you have to accept that are probably not very common for a 16 year old to accept. You know, that there was some golden plates and then angel delivered them to Joseph Smith. Like was that anything? Because this was the first time you were hearing about these things was something that was hard to, etc. It was like, oh yeah, that sounds Good. I mean, sounds reasonable. It happened. Do you remember any of that?

Sydney [00:14:31] Yeah. So I had, I was baptized actually when I was like 11, I think, or maybe nine. Just like a period of time where our mom was still like a single mom, but felt motivated by whatever was happening at the time to bring us to church for a little bit. So I would say maybe a couple months, long enough to get baptized. So my older brother and I got baptized. But that period of activity didn't last super long because they would try to give my mom callings. And she's a single mom and works full time and has three kids, you know. So I think that I, it was like easy for me to accept things because I kind of felt already like I was Mormon, even though I did. I mean, I guess I was because I was baptized, but I didn't know really like anything at all. There were some things starting to go to church because when I was 16, I was already starting to kind of develop my like worldviews of being a little bit more like progressive I guess. So I remember going to church and being like, why do I have to go to a class with just girls? Like, why can't we just like learn together? Like, this is really weird and it feels kind of like sexist. Like that's what I was like thinking. And at the same time I would see people who were like sharing their testimonies and being really like earnest and like getting emotional about how much they believed. And as a 16 year old, like wanting to feel like loved and accepted like young people are like always searching for. I really felt like even though I didn't, I wasn't really like vibing with like the like youth situation and like separate classes and stuff. I really felt like I want to push through this kind of of like weird stuff because I want to feel the way that these people feel. Like I want to have like, I wanted to have a testimony. So I think that was anything that I didn't understand. I was like, oh, it's because it's new. And I, I just kept pushing through that.

Hayley Rall [00:17:02] Yeah, that's an interesting. The whole situation is interesting because it feels like you were kind of primed to just maybe not care as much about some of the things that might feel odd or surprising because you had had enough exposure to it. And then of course, when you're a 16 year old, it makes sense that the things that you're paying attention to are just the emotion, the feeling of belonging and being motivated by those things more. So I'm curious to Hear more about both of your experiences then as teenagers. So you are now attending at 16. You were 13ish.

Marissa Was baptized at 13 years old and

Lexi [00:17:36] Yeah, 13, 14.

Hayley Rall [00:17:37] And you got baptized. Do you have anything to Gerardo's question? Remember even what you were taught as a 13 year old?

Lexi [00:17:44] I'm gonna be honest. No. Cause I. Cause when you're like younger and you have your older sister, it's like you wanna have that relationship with them. And I feel like that's a lot of the reasons I was like going with the church thing because for me I was like, I don't really wanna do anything with religion, but my sister, my super cool sister's doing this. And the missionaries that were coming to our house, like, they were so fun. One of them was fun, the other one was oh. But he was like consistently in our area for like 13 months or something.

Hayley Rall [00:18:12] The fun one. Yeah, yeah.

Lexi [00:18:14] So that's why I remember him mostly. But it was like, I love the fun energy that's coming with it. I love how it's bringing me and my sister together. I love going to like the youth activities with my sister. And so I didn't really think about anything because then when I would go to like school, I'd be like, yeah, Mormon people would be like, what does that mean? And I'm like, I have no idea. I don't know. And I remember like one time during like history class, we were talking about like the Mormon pioneers coming through and I was talking about the church and my like teacher even corrected me on the proper name of the whole church. And I was just like, oh, that's crazy. I thought it was just Mormons. So mine was more of like, I wanted to follow my sister. I didn't really know what I was getting into until later on.

Hayley Rall [00:18:56] Yeah, I think that also makes so much sense as a 13 year old. Your sister's doing it, your family's doing it. There's an appeal of maybe fun activities or meeting new people. So I think that also makes a lot of sense. I think I would be doing the same thing as a 13 year old. Let's talk about from that point. So now you're in church. You spoke to this a little bit, Sidney, but talk me through what it was like being Mormon teenagers living in Ohio. Any experiences come to mind or just how you would characterize the rest of the time from joining or kind of rejoining the church. What were those years like growing up in the church?

What Was It Like Growing Up in the Church?

Sydney [00:19:36] Yeah, so I. I feel like overall, like as young people, I feel like being in the church was really positive. For us. And it, it created a space where we had a lot of positive affirmations from other adults in our lives. So like we grew up for a long period of time, like in a single parent household. There's a lot of like divorce in our family and seeing like all of these like young families in our ward. We live close to a military base, an air force base in Ohio. So we would have a lot of families from Utah who would like come through doing their residencies or just being stationed at the air force base or whatever. So we were like around all of these like young beautiful families and it's like, wow, that's so cool. Like they're like, they are dads, like present in their kids lives. And like I feel like that was like really impactful for me as like a 16 year old girl to see and kind of. I had never really thought like growing up about like getting married or having a family. I was like, oh, go to college, like, and work, you know. And I remember one of the young women, she was telling me that her sister was on a mission and I was like, oh, what's that? Even though we literally like had missionaries at our house, I didn't understand like where they came from or like how that all worked. Yeah, exactly. I was like, oh, she is. And she's like, yeah. And at the time you had to be 21 to go on a mission

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:28] and for, for women.

Sydney [00:21:30] For women? Yeah, for women. And I asked like, is that something you want to do? And she was like, yeah, if I'm not married before then. And I, I thought that she was joking. Like, I laughed and I was like, right. Like, yeah, that's so random. Like who wants to get married? And she was like, I do. And I was like, oh, like I. Yeah, I guess that sounds nice. Like, so I was like getting kind of this messaging of like the importance of the family, right? Is our, is the, the shining beacon of the church is like the family. And I, that I really connected to that and was like, wow, that's great. And then every time that we like gave our little like young women's like talks in front of the church and we're like so awkward and like saying our thing. Then after everyone's like, great job, like, you guys are so awesome. Like we were just getting all this like positive reinforcement all the time. So yeah, I feel like at the time I was like, yeah, I love this. Like I'm the young women's and like mutual activities are kind of awkward. But like when I go to my Sunday school classes. I have all these great teachers who care about me and think that I'm awesome because I'm like, learning about the church.

Marriage When You're a Child in the Church

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:56] Well, because you were inactive and then are active too, you kind of become. You're a little bit on the spotlight. Right. Because you were not there and then you're now there and. And a little bit more taken care of. I don't know.

Sydney [00:23:09] Yeah.

Hayley Rall [00:23:11] Yeah. That's so fascinating to hear your perspective, especially on the marriage thing, because I was a born and raised Utah Mormon. And when you can compare experiences, I almost have the opposite experience where when someone was like, yeah, I won't go on a mission. I will go on a mission if I don't get married before then. I just have heard that since I was as far back as I can remember. And it's fascinating that you were coming from this place of how different that felt for you, and then you start swimming in it and how quickly that can start changing an impressionable young mind about what's important to you and what your priorities are in life. And it makes sense that it would.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:53] Right.

Hayley Rall [00:23:53] Because as you said, you're seeing maybe the best in a lot of ways of Mormonism, these happy, seemingly happy young families. And the community aspect of it sounds like it was working really well for where you were at. What about you, Lexi?

Sydney [00:24:10] Do you.

Hayley Rall [00:24:11] Similar. Different. What was your experience?

Lexi [00:24:13] I would say similar. Similar to, like, the praise content of it. And I feel like, because we dove right into it after we joined the church, it wasn't like those families you see where they start meeting with the missionaries and then they just stop coming. It was like we were full force. Like, all of us, like, my mom got a calling, my stepdad got a calling. We were like in the youth callings, and we were just everywhere. We made friends really quickly. And like the other wards, because here in Utah, like, all the wards are really close together, where each ward in our stake was kind of a distance away from each other. And I feel like it. We grew up pretty independent, but when we joined the church, I feel like it made us more dependent. Like, I. I was thinking about this the other day where me and Sydney started talking about men all the time. And we would be like, what you would say is boy crazy. And when the missionaries would come in, we'd be like, oh, my gosh, they're so cute. We're gonna see what they're doing after the mission. But it's like, that's what we were taught that we should be doing. We should be looking for who we're gonna marry, where we had this great example of our mom who did it herself, being a single mother for so long, and we're just like, okay, we have to get married. We have to look at whatever boy, like this boy sitting next to me in Sunday school could be my husband. And it's just, like, a weird thought process, especially since, like, we are so early into puberty. Like, we don't really know that much about ourselves. Why are we thinking about marriage now? Why are we thinking about what our wedding's gonna look like and how many kids we want in the future?

Hayley Rall [00:25:44] And you feel like that was different, it sounds like, from how you felt before being in the church. And also presumably different from, like, maybe what your peers were thinking about for sure.

Sydney [00:25:55] Yeah, totally different from what our peers were talking about. And I remember, too. So right before joining the church or coming back to the church, I just felt like a pretty regular teenager, I guess. But then I was like, oh, I should probably start dressing more modestly, because they talk about modesty in church all the time. And maybe I should stop swearing with my friends, because you shouldn't swear. Like. And I kind of, like, slowly implemented those things, I guess. Like, as soon as they, like, sunk into my brain, like, oh, they're teaching me these things because I should be doing them. Like, it's not just because, like, oh, like, I go to church and see what they've got going on. I'm like, oh, wait, like, I'm a part of this, and I should be kind of, like, representing that when I'm at school or when I'm with my friends and I had friends who notice. Like, I would. I would, like, say, like, oh, flip instead of an expletive, and they'd be like, wait, do you not swear? Oh, no, I don't. They're like, I did. You used to swear, I think. And, yeah, so sometimes, like, my. I mean, my close friends obviously knew that we were going to church, and I was kind of going through this transition. But, yeah, just like, my peers, classmates, they're like, wait, that's interesting. Kind of noticing the difference.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:33] Yeah.

Hayley Rall [00:27:33] It set you apart in a lot of ways that you. Yeah. Before, you were one way. And then people are all of a sudden, like, wait, you're a little bit different than you were. And then we are probably was there. I'm curious about the way that you identified with the doctrine of the church, especially as you're learning it as teenagers. Like, we've talked a lot about the culture. Tell me about what it was like to be learning about Mormon doctrine, how much you were learning and if there were any things that were surprising you or strange to you, what it was like kind of, I guess, developing a testimony, it sounds like again or for the first time,

When You Were Learning the Doctrine of the Mormon Church as a Teen

Lexi [00:28:19] I would say for me, like, a lot of things just didn't stick because when I was going to activities, it was. It would be like, we're going to read the scripture right now and then talk about how it correlates to, like, school. It was never like, let's talk about, like, Joseph Smith and how things came about, like. And I feel like that. I don't know if that's, like, on purpose or if it's because it's just so, like, beaten down. Because everywhere you go, it's like X, Y and Z. And so they wanted to make it more personable to us, but they would just, like, use scriptures. And it could be scriptures from, like, the Bible or the Book of Mormon.

Hayley Rall [00:28:54] So you weren't learning a lot of foundings of the Mormon Church, Mormon history, things like that weren't really being taught to you.

Sydney [00:29:04] Yeah. I think the way that you described it, Lexi, is like, I hadn't really thought of it before, but, yeah, like, when you have, like, lessons or whatever, they're not really talking about the doctrine. They're talking about how you can apply it to, like, living the doctrine. And I think too, there's like, a whole language in Mormonism. So when we were coming in, and I feel similarly that a lot of stuff didn't really stick because we. We didn't have, like, the whole context. Like, I remember one of the first times that we were, like, going back to church, we went to a fireside for, like, youth or whatever. And the stake patriarch was, like, giving a talk about patriarchal blessings. And I was like, I had literally no idea what they were talking about. Like, I had never heard of a patriarchal blessing.

Hayley Rall [00:29:59] Yeah.

Sydney [00:30:00] Like, I wasn't familiar with it, like, at all. So I was just like, okay. Like, yeah, like, looking around, like, what's everyone going on? Like, to put the walls in here, like, why are they so scratchy? You know? Like. And I. I think that that's kind of a lot of it. Even when I, like I mentioned before, I never really thought about, like, where the missionaries came from until they announced the age change for missionaries. So in general conference, they announced previously young men would go on their missions when starting when they're 19 years old. And young women could go starting when they were 21. So they changed the ages so young men could go at 18 and young women could go at 19 and something like in that. So when they made that change, I was like a senior in high school and I was like, oh, I could go on a mission like that. That had never occurred to me before that like young people like me are who the missionaries are. Like, they leave their homes and like, whatever.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:07] That's really interesting because if you think about, you know, about the lingo and if you don't know what the word covenants means or revelation or translation or a lot of these things just go over your head. Because like they say revelation, there's revelation that. What does that even mean? Prophets, seer and revelation. What is that? What does that actually mean?

Hayley Rall [00:31:28] And to your point, it seemed like. It just seemed irrelevant too, because if you're reading a scripture about, I don't know, discipline and they're like, this is why you should be disciplined in school, it's like, yeah, that's pretty easy to digest. And then maybe these stranger concepts, like a patriarchal blessing just probably feels less relevant in a lot of ways. So you're not really internalizing that maybe the same way. Because why would you, you know, if you don't feel like it's, it's relevant to you? The mission, age change. Before we get to the mission thing, actually, I wanted to ask if you can think back to those years, maybe you as well, Lexi, like when you're in, you know, you're old enough that you're understanding these things we're talking about, maybe you're not internalizing all of the, some of these concepts. Do you feel like you were true believers? Like, how much do you feel like you believed in the Mormon Church? Did you want to defend it? If people were asking question about it, how did you relate to the belief system of Mormonism in that way?

The mission, age change

Lexi [00:32:30] I think for me it was a lot of. I never defended it. Like when I started telling people that I was Mormon and my friends would like do research, find things like on south park and stuff, and they would make those jokes, I'd be like, absolutely. Because I just didn't understand it. I always thought it was just fun and I thought it was all make believe. And it was like I was still going out and doing things because my senior year, my last two years, I went to a vocational high school. And so there was a lot of feeder schools that went to this school. So I was able to meet a lot of people who had interacted with people who were a part of the Mormon faith. And from what I was doing at the time. They would always be, like. They would call me, like, Lexi the cool Mormon, because they. They're entered there. They were introduced to, like, Mormons who were very strict, like, probably never cussed, never did anything, never strayed away from their golden path. Right? But for me, I was going out with my friends, I was doing things I probably shouldn't have done, and they were associate, but I still would call myself a Mormon. So they would be like, yeah, Lexi's the cool Mormon. Like, we'll keep her around. But I never really found myself defending it, but I would claim the title.

Sydney on Being a Mormon When She Was Younger

Hayley Rall [00:33:39] Interesting. When you say doing things you shouldn't be doing, do you mean that by Mormon standards or just generally speaking, what were the things that you were doing?

Lexi [00:33:48] I guess I would say definitely from, like, the Mormon standard and just, like, general standard. I was going out to, like, parties with my friends, and one of the things is, like, me trying to hide it from, like, the church, but also trying to hide it from my mom. But I would also use the church to cover up so I could cover it for my mom. So if she was just like, oh, like, I heard you were doing, like, you were smoking pot or something, I'd be like, no, mom. Like, I want to go to the temple. But then when I would talk to, like, my. When I would talk to my other friends, I'd be like, yeah, absolutely. Like, yes, I'm Mormon, but I'm ready to go to this, like, barn party with you right now.

Hayley Rall [00:34:26] And drinking, trying drugs, all of that, but kind of able to use the church a little bit as a cover for some of that.

Lexi [00:34:32] Yes, absolutely.

Hayley Rall [00:34:33] You were working the system in all directions.

Lexi [00:34:36] And I feel like it worked out for me because it's like, I still was able to be successful in life, however, I still was able to experience my life totally.

Hayley Rall [00:34:45] Did you have any experiences like that, Sydney, while you were in high school?

Sydney [00:34:50] No, my experience was pretty opposite to that, where I was like, I don't want God to see me doing bad things. I was pretty earnest, and I really believed everything, and I really wanted to be a part of it. And I could see, like, at the beginning that I didn't really believe or, like, I didn't really feel strongly about it, and I wanted to feel strongly about it. So I, like, would go to all of the activities, and I was like, yeah, like, really trying to learn. But even then, my understanding of the church, like, doctrinally was, like, very basic, like the missionary lessons, like the. The Gospel of Jesus Christ, like, faith and repentance and baptism and things like that. Like, I didn't know. So to your question, if we were, like, defensive, I didn't know, like, anything about church history besides, like, the restoration, like, video. And, like, we watched, like, 17 miracles at, like, youth conference or something. Like, I really didn't know that much, so I would be defensive, but, like, in a way that was, like, completely inaccurate. Like, I. I didn't know that Joseph Smith had multiple wives. And when people said that he did, I would say, no, he didn't. And I'm Mormon than. I know, you know, but, like, the video, I didn't know.

Lexi [00:36:30] Yeah.

Sydney [00:36:30] Because I've only seen Joseph Smith in the church videos, you know? Like, I didn't have any, like, historical context for it. So I would defend, but I would just be, like, totally wrong.

Hayley Rall [00:36:44] Yeah. It sounds like you were more of a literal believer, though. I mean, at least more so than Lexi. Like, you really internalized it where Lexi. It sounds like you were kind of like, yeah, like, I'll take the good of this, but, you know, gonna do my own thing as well. Did that ever cause friction between the two of you as you were living it out differently?

Lexi [00:37:05] I was really good at hiding it. I don't think anyone ever knew until, like, my adult life that that's what

Hayley Rall [00:37:15] you were up to as a teenager.

Sydney [00:37:17] Yeah, that checks out, I think. I didn't really know. I just thought, like, yeah, we're. We're all in this together.

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:22] Are you just finding out right now?

Sydney [00:37:24] No, I know. I know now, but you're like, wait a second. Yeah, I think, too, so learning, like, doctrinally as well. So I had. I had already, like, I was starting to develop my, like, worldviews, like, right before joining the church. So even, like, I always had pretty nuanced views about things. I have always had gay friends since, like, middle school, high school. Like, if a man talks to me or a boy talks to me and, like, thinks I'm funny, like, they're probably gay. You know what I'm saying? Like, they're just really drawn to me, and I'm drawn to them. And so that was something like. And in my high school years, too, I'm thinking, like, I'm joining this church. Like, one of my friends who is gay and was, like, openly gay at the time came to church with me. I, like, shared with him the Mormons and gays website and was like, I mean, if this speaks to you, like, you could be in it if you want, you know? Like, I just. I always had like, especially for like the LGBTQ community, I was, I always had a very big open heart. So I always had a disconnect between what was being taught in the church. But, but I also felt like, well, the Mormon Church is like actually kind of progressive about gay people because they're saying like, it's not a choice to be gay. And I really believe that. So, like, yeah, that kind of like, it felt like better to me than other, like, especially Christian religions or like organized religions. I was like, well, this is kind of, kind of progressive.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:12] Do you remember how, how you heard about Mormon and gay's website? Mormon, Mormons and Mormon and gay.

Sydney [00:39:20] I don't know. I kind of feel like maybe they like, did they ever like announce that they made it?

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:26] So. But maybe you just googled it.

Sydney [00:39:27] I might have just googled it. It was like, what's up with gay Mormons? I'm, I'm interested in that. But I also, because of that kind of like mindset that I had when I learned about like what the Book of Mormon actually was, that it's like another testament of like another people who also like had prophets and were being taught. To me, that felt like super equitable. And I was like, wow, that's like, really cool. Like, it's not like a chosen people. It's like everybody who was alive at the time, like had a prophet and got to learn about Jesus Christ and like got to know the gospel of Jesus Christ. So I was like, wow, that's like really cool. Like that's super. Like everybody gets a chance where other churches like don't teach that. So I think, yeah, I really had like a pretty earnest belief of like, wow, this sounds like cool. Or like even the kingdoms of glory. I was like, oh, so like, nobody goes to hell. Like that really feels good to me. Like, even though they're not like all gonna be with God, like, we're still gonna all have like kingdoms of glory. So like those like doctrinal pieces really spoke to me as like a young, like open hearted. Yeah, yeah, like progressive, like 16 year old girl in like a swing state of Ohio. I was like, yeah, like I can be religious and I can like love everybody. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Hayley Rall [00:41:06] Yeah. Which shouldn't be.

Separation of the Book of Mormon and Mormonism

Sydney [00:41:08] Yeah, exactly.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:09] Yeah.

Hayley Rall [00:41:10] I'm curious too, if you're. It may be difficult to answer not having an experience to compare to, but I wonder if in Ohio perhaps there was more of a progressive bend to what you were being taught. It sounds like maybe some of these things were emphasized to you, the things that were of an equitable nature and a more compassionate nature. And yeah, that may be difficult to say, but I don't know if you felt like you were receiving some of that in the messaging directly from church leaders or in lessons and things like that.

Sydney [00:41:42] Yeah, I don't know if I can speak to that either. Not that I remember. I feel like it was like pretty standard, like lessons, I guess, but I think just my like interpretation of it, I was like, oh, that's like so cool. Equal. Even though I don't think anyone was like saying it that way. They were just like, yeah, we have another testament and it's cool. And in my brain I was like, that is so cool because everybody gets a chance. And like, you know, so I guess the, the Book of Mormon is framed as like, it's another testament of like Jesus Christ. So we have two groups of people saying that Jesus Christ existed. So it's like proof, I guess.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:25] And then it ends up being that the people in the Book of Mormon are Jews as well. It's not like God went to a different tribe or a different, you know, to the Gentiles at the end. Lehi and Nephi, they all descend from, from supposedly from the Jews. And then, well, especially now that becomes complicated when the church wants to, we church apologists wants to say, well, the Nephites and Lamanites, they were all just small group of people in America. There were a lot of other people here. But yeah, that's kind of interesting that that's how you were interpreting it.

Sydney [00:43:03] Yeah, I think that's mostly what it was. That's how I was interpreting it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:06] Yeah.

Sydney [00:43:06] And then again, like, yeah, I just like went out like on a mission like with like, I believe in Jesus Christ in my back pocket. Like that was it. Like I really did not have a lot of that context of like, oh, like they actually were like coming from Jerusalem, so they were still kind of like the chosen people. Like, to me, that wasn't how the story went.

Hayley Rall [00:43:29] Yeah, I mean, I didn't piece that together until in my deconstruction too, you know, and I was living in Utah where I was much more steeped in it. So I think, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I want to talk about the mission before we do. Is there anything else you want to ask about those teenage years?

Bishop interviews and modesty

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:46] How about the arbitrary rules that sometimes are given to the youth, you know, about. You were talking about modesty, you know, girls camp, you, you shouldn't wear to a two piece swimsuit or like you should be dressing this way or shouldn't be doing that. Or this, like. Or how about also bishop interviews where you're asked if you're following these rules, do you have any memory of any of that, and if any of that was ever strange to you, not being raised in a Mormon background?

Sydney [00:44:25] Yeah, I. So the. I guess we really didn't have, like, an understanding of, like, garments at all. So, like, when they're talking about, like, modesty standards, it's, like, in preparation for, like, your garments. Like, you need a dress in a way that wouldn't show your garments if you were wearing garments. And I was like, whatever. That's about. Like, I guess I'll. I'll learn about that in the future. Like, it just didn't. It didn't really seem super pressing to me. But I also was kind of like, what's that all about? Like, I didn't really understand garments until I had, like, already been wearing them for, like, a long time. Like, when people were like, like, yeah, what are your. What's your underwear about? I'd be like,

Hayley Rall [00:45:14] not so sure.

Sydney [00:45:15] Yeah, exactly.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:16] Like, how about it's.

Sydney [00:45:17] It's sacred, so I don't want to. Want to talk about it, but, like, I just didn't really know what it was all about. And I think, like, there's like, a big, like. Like, Mormon culture versus, like, Mormon doctrine. We didn't really have, like, a deep understanding of, like, what Mormon culture was, like, not being from Utah or, like, having any connections, like, out west to, like, pioneer Mormons and, like, whatever. So, like, they're like, oh, people, like, leave because they're offended or whatever. And I was like, that's silly. Like, just thinking, like, someone in your ward said something that offended you, and I'm like, that would be a silly reason to leave the church. And not understanding, like, they're offended by, like, church leaders or they're offended by changes in policy or whatever it may be. I just didn't understand the extent of what Mormon culture was because we were not in it at all besides our ward.

Ohio Mormons: The Culture Shock

Hayley Rall [00:46:21] Yeah, you were maybe kind of spared some of the things that a Utah Mormon or an Idaho Mormon might experience, because it sounds like the Mormon culture you were in was just so different and maybe more pure also in a lot of ways.

Lexi [00:46:36] Yeah, I feel like a lot of, like, the youth, because we would do a lot of, like, steak activities, because that's all the youth that was there. And I feel like we were always just, like, so excited to see each other. Like, when we were doing, like, like, youth conferences or something. We were just so excited to get together with our friends and, like, share the same beliefs where it's like, we didn't really think about, like, the byu, the. I don't know if I could say that. Sorry, but of, like, Utah and, like, the big schools out here and how there is so many more Mormons where we were just, like, secluded to who was in our state, who was in our proximity. And sometimes that would be us going to hang out with our friends who were in the church but having to drive an hour away.

Hayley Rall [00:47:20] Yeah. So maybe just less worried about what your friend was wearing and more just, oh, yay, my Mormon friend that, you know, I don't get to see my Mormon friends when I'm at high school or whatever. Yeah, that sounds like a really nice community in a lot of ways.

Sydney [00:47:34] Yeah. I feel pretty positively about, like, our time as, like, youth in the church and. Yeah. And I think, like, culturally, in larger, like, concentrated areas of Mormon people, there's a lot more, like, checking each other and, like, seeing, like, whatever people are doing where, like, for us, it was like, our handful of friends that we saw regularly. And then there would be people who were kind of, like, would come sometimes and we'd be like, oh, they're kind of less active, but, like, that's our friend. And, like, and we, like. I worked at an ice cream, like, restaurant in town, and when people would come through from the ward, they would be like, oh, Sydney and I would give them, like, family discount. Like, we just, like, really. It felt, like, really positive and, like, I have, like, really good and, like, fond memories of, like, being in church and, like, the people that we were with. So it was like. It's like a big culture shock, too. When you go to an area where, like, everybody is Mormon, it's like in Ohio, we're like, yeah, like. Like we're friends. Like, we're Mormons. We go to the same church. Like, we have the same beliefs and standards. But then when you're, like, in. At a CES school or whatever, it's like, yeah, like, we're all Mormon. Like, you mean nothing to me. Like, it's not like, you know, just

Hayley Rall [00:49:02] by virtue of being Mormon.

Sydney [00:49:03] Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Lexi [00:49:05] It's kind of humbling.

Hayley Rall [00:49:08] I bet. I bet it was a huge culture shock. Before we get to that, I wanted to just ask you, Lexi, did you have any. Because you said that you were experimenting with drugs and alcohol and doing these things. Did you ever have any friction where your bishop asked you about that? Did you just never tell your bishop Was there any guilt or shame that you were experiencing around those things or were you able to compartmentalize?

Lexi on Her Temple Interview

Lexi [00:49:34] I'm going to be so honest with you. I don't feel like I really had shame. I, like, I remember doing, like, the temple interview questions and my brain just being like, well, this is between me and God, so I don't really need to tell this random man that I don't really know. Like, I only met him a year ago.

Gerardo Sumano [00:49:50] That's progressive.

Hayley Rall [00:49:51] Yeah. Hell yeah, that rocks.

Lexi [00:49:55] But I was just like, I don't need to tell him what I'm doing. Like, if I feel guilty, I can go to God. And so in my temple interview questions, I would lie and be like, yes, I am keeping the word of wisdom. And I do remember, though, like, the one time I kind of got caught because there was a family in our ward who also went to our high school, and they had told their mom who was in our ward, who told my mom that I was smoking weed.

Hayley Rall [00:50:20] So still some community policing, unfortunately. Yeah.

Lexi [00:50:23] And I remember my heart just, like, dropping and I was like, maybe I should actually kind of, like, pay attention to what I'm doing and seeing. I think probably at the time my brain was like, okay, who's around me when I'm doing this so I don't get caught again. But at the same time, I remember talking to my mom and she brought up, like, the temple, and I was just like, wait, you're right. Like, maybe I should be more focused on, like, why am I going to the temple and shouldn't do it. That doesn't mean I stopped in that moment, but it. It gave me more of like a wake up call in that moment.

Hayley Rall [00:50:51] Caused a little. Yeah. Reflection.

Lexi [00:50:53] Yeah.

Hayley Rall [00:50:53] Yeah. That's awesome, though. I mean, being at that age, able to have the wherewithal to be like, I'm doing what feels right by me, and that's between me and God. And not up for this random guy I don't know, to even chime in on. I think that's really impressive and probably saved you. Yeah. A lot of mental turmoil around not doing things the exact Mormon way. So I'm jealous in a lot of ways. I wish I could have been that way.

Lexi [00:51:21] I know. I'm so proud of little me.

Hayley Rall [00:51:23] Yeah, that's incredible. Let's get into the mission then. So you were saying, Sydney, that you heard about the mission. Age change. So women were now allowed to go on missions at 19. What led you to want to go on a mission and what was that journey like? You know, when did you decide and the journey leading up to your mission?

Sydney on her Mission

Sydney [00:51:44] Yeah. So when they made the age change, like, during general conference, I felt like. Then, like, wow, like, that's something I could do. I think I want to serve a mission. But there also weren't, like, in our ward, there weren't really, like, young people going out on missions. Like, so I didn't really have anybody to, like, ask about, like, the preparation process for it. We had people who were adults, who were returned missionaries, but things changed so quickly or whatever. So I just didn't have a ton of guidance for how to go about serving a mission until my peers were starting to prepare for their missions. So I. I felt like I wanted to go on a mission. I was a senior in high school. I was accepted to go to Ohio State University. But then I was thinking, like, well, it's really expensive. I'm gonna have to take out, like, loans. And then I think. I don't know where I got this information from, but that, like, you can't go on a mission if you have debt, which is probably, like, I don't know, credit card debt or something. I don't even know if they care about if you have debt.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:04] I've never heard about it.

Hayley Rall [00:53:05] I haven't heard about. I heard about it either. I know that's a thing, I think, for the army, but I. I don't know. But it could be a thing. I don't know.

Sydney [00:53:12] Yeah. Or maybe it was just, like, somebody's advice to me, like, don't get a bunch of debt before you go on your mission, because, like, it'll be a hassle or whatever, but I don't know, something. I had that, like, belief from somewhere that you can't, like, have debt if you go on your mission. And I was like, well, if I go to Ohio State, I'm definitely gonna have debt. So I was also accepted to, like, a local university, and I had some, like, scholarships to go there, but I didn't want to go there. I wanted to go to Ohio State, and I was, like, signed up for, like, housing in the fall, and, like, I had all these things. And then I just, like. I don't know. I randomly felt like I really need to go on a mission. Like, I. So I decided to not go to a house day. I had to, like, tell my friend that I was going to be a roommate with. Like, I can't be your roommate anymore. And she wasn't Mormon, but she was, like, so sweet and was like, that's great that you're Gonna go on a mission and, like, do something that you believe in. Like, I understand. And so, yeah, I guess then, yeah, I just, that was my new focus. Like, instead of preparing to, like, go, like, move out to go to college, I was like, preparing to go on a mission and, like, saving my money so I can, like, pay for my mission. And yeah, I got, like, a lot of support from the ward as well. Like, everyone was really excited that I was going on a mission. And I felt pretty confident that, like, I, at this point, I had never read the Book of Mormon. Like, I didn't really have, like a deep. Like, I. I wasn't really going to seminary. Like, I went like, sporadically. We had early morning seminary. So it started at like, I don't know, 6:30? 6. Yeah. In the morning. And it was like, on the other side of town and like, whatever. And I didn't have parents who made me go, which. That's how you get seminary graduates in Ohio, is you have parents that make you go.

Hayley Rall [00:55:14] Yeah, that was too early.

Sydney [00:55:15] Yeah. So I just really didn't have, like, I didn't have any, like, scripture masteries I could pull out. Like, I didn't. I was just like, I believe in the church. I know the church is true. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet. And I. That's enough. And I also felt like we had missionaries come to our family and take us, like, and teach us the gospel and help us go to church. So I kind of felt like a pay it forward thing too. Like, yeah, I want to help other families like mine, and that's it.

Hayley Rall [00:55:50] Yeah. Probably just had a really good, strong connection with missionaries, generally speaking.

Sydney [00:55:55] Yeah, for sure.

Hayley Rall [00:55:57] Which I can imagine affected that a lot. So did you end up going to school before your mission or did you not go to school and then just went straight on a mission?

How a Mission Call changed your life

Sydney [00:56:04] I went to school for one semester. Not at Ohio State, at a local university. So I just commuted. Yeah, I went for one semester. I got my mission call in October. I turned 19 in November, and I left for my mission in February.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:21] What do you think about when you got your call? Did you know where. Where it was?

Sydney [00:56:30] Yeah, yeah. So I served in the Bolivia Cochabamba mission, and when I got it, I, like, took Spanish in high school. So I had like, a rough idea of like, Spanish speaking countries. That's like, part of the curriculum. But I didn't. I wouldn't have been able to, like, point it out on a map.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:46] Yeah, I don't think I can right now.

Hayley Rall [00:56:48] I was gonna say, I Still can't.

Sydney [00:56:51] So it's. I was called Spanish speaking. It's a Spanish speaking country. And I was like, so excited. Like, yeah, that. Yeah. That I was going. I got my patriarchal blessing around the same time that I was applying, like, filling out my mission papers. And our stake patriarch, he told me that when he was filling out his mission papers, they asked, like, where he wanted to go, and he said that he wanted to go to Paris, France, and that's where he went on his mission.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:26] Oh.

Sydney [00:57:27] And he was like, so I don't know if they're going to ask you, but if there's a space that you can, like, write in, like, you might as well ask where you want to go. And like, if you don't go, you don't go.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:37] But, like, do you have a reference on a. Yeah.

Sydney [00:57:40] So I put my mission papers. There was like a section that was like, is there anything else you want the brethren to know? And I was like, I would like to go to the Scotland, Ireland mission. Thank you so much. But yeah, so I didn't go there. I went to Bolivia.

Hayley Rall [00:57:57] Very different.

Sydney [00:57:58] Which is, yeah, pretty different. Pretty cool. I had taken like four years of Spanish in high school. And at this time, too, I was like, going out with the sister missionaries all the time. And like, our family, we. We did have a really strong connection to missionaries. Like, we always had them over for dinner. We lived about an hour from Columbus, Ohio, which was, like, where the. The mission, like, home was and whatever. So, like, my mom would always drive, like, the sister missionaries over for, like, their transfers. And like, we just always, like, had missionary. Like, I was really comfortable and familiar with the missionaries.

Culture Shock for Missionaries

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:36] I have a question. So growing up, for me, my. Both of my parents served their missions in Oaxaca, Mexico, which arguably is probably one of the most rural states in Mexico, especially in the 90s when they served their missions. So I grew up hearing their stories, like, of a really, really rough missions with a lot of scarcity and, like, people being really poor and them struggling, you know, like, the amount of walking they had to do, the hills they had to, you know, walk to visit people and warts being tiny and small and maybe sometimes even starting the branches themselves. How. What was your idea? Because, I mean, obviously being in the United States, going out with missions would be drastically different than a country like Bolivia. What was your idea of what the. I mean, I guess you had an idea of what missionaries do, but once you got there, was it shocking for you? Like, just the. Just, you know, not just maybe the weather, but just like, even the culture, how the, the poverty in the, in the country and just like, a culture shock was it. And combined with missionary work, was there anything you can talk about that?

Sydney [01:00:05] Yeah, there was definitely a culture shock. Well, I guess I'll talk first about, like, my initial reaction, like, when I got my mission call.

My mission call and the challenges

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:13] Yeah.

Sydney [01:00:14] I didn't really have, like, a, a deep understanding of what, like, living in Bolivia would be like. I, I, like, searched and found some, like, missionary blogs of, like, sister missionaries who are, like, in my mission or, like, in Bolivia. And I was, like, reading and like, oh, like, this is so cool, you know, like, doing my little research. But I think overall I was just, like, excited. I wasn't thinking, like, like, I knew, like, people would say, like, oh, missions are, like, hard or whatever, but I was kind of thinking, like, yeah, like, it's fine. Like, because I was always, like, an overachiever and like, always like, okay, yeah, so I was just kind of like, yeah, like, I'll, I'll be fine. Like, I felt super confident and I was like, God's gonna provide. Like, I, I, I feel good.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:04] Sorry I didn't finish that story. But for. I always felt like that was my fault, but didn't complete my thought. But I always felt like I had an advantage as a missionary because I already knew what I was going to. Then some of the missionaries, especially American missionaries, who would come with this idealistic, you know, idea of what the mission was going to be, and they were very disappointed and would struggle a lot on their missions anyway.

Sydney [01:01:40] So, yeah, I think that I, so we at the time too, our, like, steak and the, like, Columbus, Ohio mission, we did, like, mini missions. So I, I, There was like a one during the summer for, like, a week, we went and, like, lived with, like, a set of missionaries and, like, went out and, like, proselyted and like, wow. We just, like, lived in their apartment with them. And for sisters, since the age had just changed, there weren't that many sister missionary companionships yet. But there were a ton of young women who, like, wanted to go on missions. So I was like, I don't know, 17 or 18. And there was one set of sister missionaries, and there were four young women from the stake that we were paired with them. So there were, like, six of us in their apartment. And so I kind of was, like, loosely familiar with, like, the day to day of, like. Yeah. Of missionaries and like, the handbook and stuff like that. And it was definitely different than I was expecting going in the mini mission. But that really prepared me to kind of have an understanding of what I would be doing as a missionary. And I think what. At the time, I was mostly like, I don't know any scriptures. Like, and I. Like, I can use the pamphlets to, like, teach or whatever, but, like. Like, there. There's, like, a. Oh, like, the Spirit will, like, tell you in the moment, like, the perfect scripture to. To share, and that will be related. And I'm like, he, like, the spirit can't tell me if I don't know. So I think that that was, like, not. I wasn't super worried about, like, where I was going. I felt like God called me there. So, like, wherever I go, I'll be fine. But I was like, I don't know anything. So that was kind of more what I was worried about. Yeah.

Marriage on a Mission

Hayley Rall [01:03:40] What about when you actually got there? What was your experience?

Sydney [01:03:43] Yeah, so when I actually got there. So first I went to the mtc.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:46] Yeah, I was gonna ask.

Lexi [01:03:47] Yeah.

Sydney [01:03:48] I went to the NCC in Bogota, Colombia.

Hayley Rall [01:03:50] Oh, wow. So you were straight in.

Sydney [01:03:52] Yes. Yeah. And I was there for six weeks. The first four weeks, I had a MTC companion who was from the United States, and in the last two weeks, I had a companion who was from Bolivia, so she, like, only spoke Spanish. And I. It was, like, really one of the first times where I was, like, around a lot of, like, LDS young adults. So kind of like. Like sue mentioned earlier, whenever we were, like, looking at the elders, like, like, why were you called to our. Our ward if not to marry me? You know, saying, like, God put us together. So I thought that about, like, basically every elder I ever met on my mission, like, this could be my husband. Because I. I also didn't have that. Like, there's kind of, like, a stigma in largely, like, Mormon areas of, like, people who, like, met on their mission and got married. I did not have that. I was like, I'm gonna meet my husband on my mission. Like, there's all these, like, young, like,

Hayley Rall [01:05:00] men, and I feel like there's none

Sydney [01:05:03] in Ohio, so this is where I gotta go, you know?

Hayley Rall [01:05:05] And I feel like it's become more that way. Like, the amount of people sense, the age change, the amount of people meeting on missions, and maybe even people going on missions with the same hopes of, like, finding a partner. I feel like that's maybe more typical now.

Sydney [01:05:19] Yeah. So. But I had. During my classes in ntc, I had a lot of fun. I was, like, joking around all the time, like, with the other missionaries and, like. But whenever we. I would have, like, any time to just Kind of be, like, alone with my thoughts. I was like, what am I doing here? Like, this is like. And. And I actually. So I had been like. Like, every time we would have, like, morning, like, prayer, like, all together. Like, the missionaries would get together and we'd, like, sing hymns and, like, whatever, like, in the chapel, I didn't understand anything because it was all in Spanish. So I just feel like thinking. And then, like, the NTC president would, like, look over and I'm, like, crying, like, I miss my mom. And so I actually got to call my mom while I was in the ntc because my. The NTC president was like, hey, Sister Wingate, like, it seems like you're having a hard time.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:25] Like, and let's just remind everybody that at the time, there was no. It was only emails once a week, right?

Sydney [01:06:32] Yeah, it was only emails once a week.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:34] The only kind of communication you had with your family.

Sydney [01:06:36] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:36] For an entire year and a half, except for Mother's Day and Christmas.

Lexi [01:06:40] Right.

Hayley Rall [01:06:40] It's a big deal that they let you. Must have been quite sad.

Sydney [01:06:43] And I did not tell anybody. I was like, yeah, I'm strong with you guys, but, yeah. He was like, do you need to call your mom? Because, like, you're having a hard time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So he let me call my mom. So that was nice. But, yeah. So another thing that was, like, really shocking to me, though, in the. In the mtc, the MTC president would have, like, Sunday firesides only with the North American missionaries. So they were. It was like, our only kind of meeting that was, like, only in English. And he would talk to us about, like, deep doctrine kind of stuff. So not just, like, faith in Jesus Christ and, like, whatever, but about, like, polygamy and about, like. Like, what's it called? That's, like, what we were before we were spirits.

Hayley Rall [01:07:45] Intelligence.

Sydney [01:07:46] Intelligences. I had never heard of that. And I was kind of like, what? Like, I was like, wait, hang on. So God didn't create us. He just made our spirits, but we existed before as intelligences co eternal with God. Right? So I was like.

Hayley Rall [01:08:07] Loved that one, too.

Sydney [01:08:09] I was like, so God didn't create us? Like, what am I doing here? Like, I was just like. I w. I was like, I just had no idea.

I Went Through The Temple My First Time

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:17] We missed your first going through the temple. When did that happen?

Sydney [01:08:21] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, I went through the temple right before I left on my mission to the Columbus, Ohio, temple.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:28] And how was that?

Sydney [01:08:32] It was, like, interesting, but I think so There was a. Like, I didn't understand, like, anything that was, like, going on.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:39] Yeah.

Sydney [01:08:40] But my mom was with me. A bunch of people from my ward came, and I. I remember. So one of the people, she was kind of like a mentor to me, just, like, a woman from our ward who, like, I'm still friends with, and I, like, babysat her kids when they lived in our ward. And she told me before that, like, her first time going through the temple, she, like, got so nervous that she, like, couldn't stop laughing. And I was like, oh, that's kind of like, oh, that's interesting. And then there was, like, a part I was sitting next to my mom, and there was a part in the ceremony where, like, all the men, like, raised their hands, and my mom, like, raised her hand, and I was like. And then she was like. And so then I was, like, laughing, but then I couldn't stop laughing. So me and my mom are just, like, laughing, like, in the temple ceremony. Um. But, yeah, I don't know. I didn't see it. And later, I, like, thought, like, I wish I had a better understanding of, like, what I was doing, because I felt like I was missing out on, like, understanding my special ordinance, because I just.

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:57] Were you, like, what is this? Because the temple has nothing to do with what you do on Sundays, right?

Sydney [01:10:03] Like, yeah. I was just kind of like, this is what I have to do to go on a mission. So, like, don't. I didn't think too much about it. I was like, like, all right, like, I'm gonna go through the temple, I'm gonna get garments, and then I'm gonna go on my mission. And I felt like I was like, I'm glad that I'm doing this before I go on a mission and not, like, right before I get married, because I felt like getting married wasn't as, like, a spiritual experience as going on a mission. So I was like, I'm gonna do this.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:28] Let me see.

Sydney [01:10:29] Church thing. Yeah. So I felt. And I. I guess, like, the. The rhetoric that I had heard about the temple was like, I learn more about the temple every time I go. And I was like, well, this is my first time, so I guess next time I'll learn something. Like, you know, like.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:46] Yeah.

Lexi [01:10:46] Yeah.

Sydney [01:10:46] I just kind of had that mindset of, like, I'm not gonna understand it. So, like, whatever.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:51] Like, sorry to go back, but. But we. We can go back to where you were. We were.

Sydney [01:10:56] Oh, in the mtc. Yeah. So. Yeah. So in. In the next, like, several times I went to the temple were in Spanish, because then the next time I Went. Was in the mtc. It was all in Spanish. I didn't understand anything, so I didn't really even understand what was being said until, like, the end of my mission when I could speak Spanish and was like, oh, this is, like, interesting. Like, you know, but yeah, so in the mtc, the MTC president would, like, have these, like, deep doctrine talks with us. He, like, told us stories about, like, people getting excommunicated. And I was like, what does excommunicated mean? And they're like, oh, like, you. Like, you get kicked out of the church. And I was like, why would we kick people out of the church? Like, I just was, like, so blown away. But then I was like, oh, like, I'm already here. Like, I can't. Like, in Columbia. Yeah. Like, I can't leave, so.

MTC student on a mission

Hayley Rall [01:11:54] Well, you also. On a mission. It's fascinating to me that the mission president was teaching those things, but I also was thinking I learned a lot of things on my mission, whether just from people I was talking to as a missionary or my mission president actually taught. My mission president was the one who taught me that. There were multiple accounts of the first vision. For example, it's actually a really good time in a lot of ways to teach people these more esoteric, maybe potentially problematic doctrines because you don't have that much time to really process it, so you kind of just take it for what it is. And also, as you said, you're just missing your mom. You're in a completely new country, surrounded by people speaking a language you don't yet know. So even if it's raising these red flags, a mission, in some ways is maybe a good time for the church to introduce these topics. I mean, not a good time, but a good time if you want people to just not worry that much about them because you have bigger fish to fry. You're trying to survive, right?

Sydney [01:12:55] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:56] But it sounds like the topics that this mission president or MTC president is teaching are more, like, way orthodox, kind of, like, way out there, right?

Sydney [01:13:09] Like, yeah, like, he shared. So he was older, and he said that his, like, grandma was, like, a polygamist or something. And, like, his.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:21] Was he shocking to hear that this bullying the church or what?

Sydney [01:13:25] So I was. I also had, like, a mis. Like, understanding of, like, that of just, I don't know, just people saying the wrong things. Like. So I. My understanding was that after the Mormons had, like, moved out west and like, all of their, like, men had died along the way, so they like, married women to, like, take care of them is not true at all. But it's kind of like something that people say.

Hayley Rall [01:13:56] Yeah, that's what I learned. Yeah.

Sydney [01:13:58] Yeah, yeah. So that's kind of like what I understood. And then I was like, yeah, we don't do it anymore because it's not necessary. Like, and I. I had, like, kind of an understanding of, like, eternal, like, polygamy, like, post mortis polygamy that, like, unmarried women would, like, be married to men that already have women's or women's wives or whatever. So. But I just kind of was like, yeah, like, that's. Yeah, it's kind of weird, but, like, what? You know, like, figure it out later. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was just like, like, whatever. Right. So. Yeah, so he talked about those things in the. In the. The mtc. And I also. I started to learn that there were people who were on missions because they felt, like, social pressure to go on missions. And that was really kind of jarring to me too, because I was like, if you don't want to be here, why are you here? Like, I was very serious. Like, I was like, I'm on a mission because I believe in the church and, like, I want to be here. So when, like, once I got to my mission and I, like, was hearing about, like, all this, like, mission gossip about, like, so and so, like, got in trouble or they got emergency transferred because they were, like, going on dates with girls or they were, like, playing video games all day, and I was like, what? Like, why are they here? Like, I just. I didn't. I had. I didn't have that, like, concept of, like, pressure because I. The. From our home ward, the last missionary who had gone out was, like, he got home while I was in the mtc. So it had been, like, two years, and there were, like, eligible, like, young men who could have gone on omissions who, like, didn't. So I was just like, if you don't want to go on a mission, don't go. Like, why are you, like, wasting my time? Like, basically, like. So that was, like, really shocking for me, too, to hear and, like, to see that not everyone was, like, taking it as seriously or I don't know if that's fair to say that they weren't taking it seriously, but they didn't have, like, the same conviction. Yeah, the same conviction. And I didn't understand, like, the societal pressure in, like, highly concentrated areas to go on a mission. Yeah. So that. That was, like, pretty shocking for me, I think, as a missionary.

Hayley Rall [01:16:39] Yeah. Cause as you were saying, it's that's kind of your first exposure, right, With Utah Mormons, Idaho Mormons, California Mormons, the Mormons that come from these high concentration pockets. So you're probably slowly learning, like, wait a second. This is different in many ways from the type of Mormonism that maybe you grew up with.

Sydney [01:17:02] Yeah. So I had also, like, never been to Utah. Like, or. I had never. Yeah. Like, I. Like, I didn't even go to, like, the Provo mtc. Like, this was, like, my first, like, time where I was in, like, a space that was, like, highly concentrated with Mormon people and, like, content warning. But, like, people from Utah can be super annoying. So, like, I was like, trigger warning. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I was like, yeah, I get it. Your snow's great. And, like, fry sauce and, like, whatever. Like, so I was just, like, around all these people all the time who were like, like, getting homesick for this, like, shared experience that they had that I didn't have.

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:44] And I was like, will always mention grass. Like, he missed.

Sydney [01:17:48] Yeah. Yeah.

Hayley Rall [01:17:49] I'm like, oh, that was so me. That's so funny.

Mormons talk about their mission

Sydney [01:17:53] So one of my areas in Bolivia was, like. It was, like, way, way super far out from, like, the rest of the mission, and it was, like, in this, like, Red Rock area, and everyone was like, like, oh, my gosh, it looks like St. George. And I'm like, I don't even know what St. George is. Like, Like, I just was like, I don't know. Always kind of like, you guys are annoying.

Hayley Rall [01:18:16] Yeah. And just how tiny that world is. But how to Utah Mormons. That feels like the world that just feels like. I mean. Yeah, I complained about not being able to eat Cafe Rio my whole mission, but I was mostly with Utah Mormons, you know? So, Yeah, I didn't even think about how grating that probably is for people who are like, what are you talking about?

Sydney [01:18:38] Yeah, I'm like, oh, my gosh. But actually, fry sauce is so delicious.

Hayley Rall [01:18:42] So you get it?

Sydney [01:18:43] Yeah, I get it. I take that one back. But everything else.

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:47] Yeah.

What was your mission experience like as far as the missionary work?

Hayley Rall [01:18:47] What was your mission experience like as far as the missionary work? How would you characterize being a missionary in Bolivia? Back to some of those questions Gerardo was asking, like, how did you adjust when you were out in the field? What was it like?

Sydney [01:19:02] Yeah, I feel like in Latin America, like, there's, like, really large Catholic population, so most of the folks that we talked to were like, we'd be like, do you want to talk about Jesus Christ? And they're like, yeah, I'm Christian. Like, and we. We could just Talk to people super easily. And I didn't have to do a lot of, like. Like, back and forth, like, trying to prove anything because we were, like, starting on the same page. Like, yeah, we believe in Jesus Christ. Like, so I kind of feel like, in that way, a lot of people didn't even realize we were, like, trying to sell them something different.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:40] Yeah. And Latino culture is not skeptical, especially, you know, when they're in lower economical classes. I had. My experience was that people would just believe. I mean, whether they would do it and go to church was different. But if you're just telling them, yeah, there was this guy in the US who received some golden plates. They'll just. Oh, that. That's cool.

Sydney [01:20:10] Yeah, yeah, exactly. They're like, oh, that's. Yeah, they were just like, thanks, sisters. Like, whatever. Or I would, like, be talking in lessons, and I could, like, tell that they're, like, zoning out. But I'm like, I gotta say my piece, you know, Like, I gotta go through the script. So I feel like, overall, I wish that I had, like, focused more on just, like, meeting people and, like, connecting with them and, like, learning from them. But instead, I was, like, 19 years old saying, like, no, like, you don't need to sell your. Your goods in the market on Sundays because you can just come to church and then you'll be blessed. Like, even though I have no understanding of, like, running a household or, like,

Hayley Rall [01:20:51] working job for a financial situation.

Sydney [01:20:54] Yeah, exactly. Like, I'm just like, what do you, like, just have faith? Like, these people don't have faith, like, with just, like, no understanding of how life works. So I do think I did get sick a lot on my mission and my first transfer, I was, like, in the hospital for, like, a week. And I. I ended up, like, I had, like, giardia and just, like, kind of, like parasites, and I lost, like, a lot of weight. And, yeah, I was just, like, really, really sick. And when I spoke with my mission president after, he was like, yeah, like, Sister Wingate, like, I heard that you were sick. Like, you were, like, not feeling good. And I was like, yeah, I was in the hospital for a week. Like, yeah, I was not feeling good. And he was like, yes, Sometimes when people get, like, homesick or they get kind of sad, it can, like, make them not feel good. And I was like, that can be true for sure. Like, I don't know if that's relevant to what happened to me.

Hayley Rall [01:22:01] Like, I truly have diarrhea, but.

Sydney [01:22:04] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But he.

Hayley Rall [01:22:05] It was kind of, like, condescending yeah,

Sydney [01:22:08] but obviously at the time, I didn't take it that way. I was like, well, I kind of did, actually. I was kind of like, no, like, I was actually sick. Like, I. On top of that, maybe, like, yeah, I'm, like, homesick and, like, whatever, but, like, it was, like, actual sickness. Yeah, I was, like, actually sick. Like, I couldn't, like, eat anything. And, like, I lost, like, 50 pounds in, like, a week. Like, I don't know if that's the exact measurements, but I was, like, visibly, like, smaller.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:35] Yeah.

Sydney [01:22:37] Yeah. And. And I, like, when I, like, on P Day, I, like, wrote to my mom, like, hey, I was in the hospital for a week. And she's like, like, why didn't I know that you were in the hospital for a week? Like, and nobody in my family had gone on a mission before, so my mom was like, you should come home. Like, oh, sorry, I shouldn't have. She's like, like, you wanted me to come home? And I was like, no way. Like, I'm. I'm doing this. Yeah, I'm doing my thing. So that. But that was kind of, like, a theme during my mission, that I just, like, kept, like, getting sick. And at one point, I, like, was really thinking about going home, but I

Hayley Rall [01:23:18] felt like, because of the sickness or.

Sydney [01:23:21] Yeah, because I just, like, kept getting sick. And, like, I also have, like, in my patriarchal blessing, there's, like, a line that says, like, that I would be, like, blessed with, like, health to, like, do everything I need to do in this life. And I was like, why does it say that when I'm not healthy, like, I'm. I keep getting sick. And I. And we had some, like, mission rules where, like, we weren't supposed to eat food, like, on the street. We weren't supposed to eat, like, pork or lettuce or strawberries because they had, like, higher, like, infection rates for, like, sickness and stuff, and that we weren't supposed to drink the water. And I, like, followed all of the rules. Like. Like, I never, like, did anything, but I just kept getting sick. So I was, like, kind of having this, like, disconnect of, like, why was I given this, like, promise that I will be healthy for, like, everything I need to do, but I keep getting sick. So I had talked to my mission president about, like, potentially going home early, and he was like, yeah, just, like, think about it. And he gave me, like, a time to, like, call him back, like, at a later date to, like, tell him what I had decided. And then I was like, yeah, I'm gonna stay Like, I decided to stay in part because I felt, like, a lot of pressure as, like, the first missionary in my family. And I felt like if, like, my sister wanted to go on a mission in the future, I was like, if I come home early from my mission, like, I don't think my sister will go on a mission, like. Cause it'll, like, leave a bad taste or whatever. Or, like, she'll go out, but she'll come home early, too. Or, like, I just felt like I really needed to push through, like, for that.

Lexi on Her Mission

Hayley Rall [01:25:07] And it sounds like your ward was so excited for you to go out, which is wonderful. But did you feel like that added to the pressure, like, the ward community having invested in you going on a mission and things like that?

Sydney [01:25:20] Yeah, I think, for sure, too. And, like, my friend, too. Like, most of my friends were not members of the church, and they were like, like, you're doing this.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:29] Like, why are you here?

Sydney [01:25:30] Why are you back?

Hayley Rall [01:25:31] Yeah.

Sydney [01:25:31] Yeah, exactly. They were like, well, like, when I did come back, they're like, how was your day trip? My trip, yeah. But. But I also kind of felt like I needed to. To do the thing that I said I was gonna do, because all of my friends are, like, sad that they're not gonna see me for a year and a half, and they, like, can't talk to me. And, like. And I had a lot of friends who would, like, email me on my mission and, like, update me about stuff that was happening and. Which was, like, so sweet. And I. I feel like being on a mission, like, at kind of, like, a young, formative age where most of my friends were not members of the church, really, like, put a lot of strain on, like, my relationships and my friendships. And a lot of them, like, didn't make it through. Like, me being on a mission where, like, other people who were, like. Like, there were some people in my mission who, like, went to high school together, and I was like, that's, like, so wild to me that, like, you're with, like, one of your classmates, like, on your mission, where, like, my classmates and my friends, like, they barely understand what I'm doing.

Hayley Rall [01:26:51] Yeah.

Sydney [01:26:52] So I kind of felt that, like, pressure to, like, do, like, complete my whole mission, to kind of be an example of, like, what do missions look like?

Hayley Rall [01:27:01] Totally.

Sydney [01:27:02] And, like, yeah.

Hayley Rall [01:27:02] So, yeah, I didn't think about how hard that would be to have your peers all just also moving on with their lives, going to school, having all these experiences, how much more difficult that could maybe make a mission experience, which is already difficult. You're already getting sick all the time. That would be really challenging. I'm wondering, Lexi, did you pick up on any of this? Were you hearing stories? Were you two still in close contact? What was it like for you while Sydney was gone on the mission?

Lexi [01:27:30] Yeah, honestly, when Sydney was on her mission, this is like, what kind of made our relationship. Because, like, I mentioned before when I was younger and I was just doing things because my older sister was doing it, I feel like it gave us time to actually communicate because, like, even I may have not been the best at emailing her every week, but I tried, and I feel like we were able to have conversations and, like, she wouldn't tell me all of these things about, like, her being sick, or she would just be like, hey, yeah, I got sick this last week. And then I had my mom, like, in the next room being like, oh, my God, like, Sydney's in the hospital. Like, I want her to come home. And I'm like, oh, yeah. Like, Sydney's saying that she's having fun, like, sharing scriptures with me. And like, while she was on her mission, that's when I started to actually be, like, stronger in the church because I wanted to know, like, what is she teaching? Like, why is she doing what she's doing? Like, why did my sister just leave for a year and a half? And, like, I wanted to explain that to my friends and be like, yeah, my older sister, she's in Cochabamba, Bolivia. She's on a mission. She's teaching this and this and this. She's doing this. Like, it gave me a testimony at the time where I was just like, yeah, like, missionary work is. This is what, like, we all should be doing. Like, I want to do this. Like, I want to be like my sister. Like, she is so. She's so strong and she's so spiritual and she's so amazing, which she is now to this day too. But it was just so. It was, like, exciting to see, but she was not sharing all of the big things with me because I remember, like, there was a couple, like, missionaries in her mission that I would email too. And it was just like a lot of, like, hehe, ha ha, on a younger sister perspective.

Hayley Rall [01:29:06] Yeah, that makes sense. And I mean, you kind of curate who you're telling what obviously, right? You don't want to tell your little sister maybe all of the hard parts or I feel like even me as a missionary, I was doing revisionist history in my mind as I was living it. Because you're so trained to say, well, this Is, you know, a challenge from God. And what am I supposed to learn from this? It's really interesting to process what can be traumatic as a missionary when you have all this messaging telling you, like, no, this isn't trauma. This is God giving you a trial so you can learn and grow and all the things. What was the. Is there anything else you want to say about your mission before we get to you coming home? And then kind of what that switch was, because then Lexi ended up going on a mission.

Sydney [01:29:56] Yeah. So another thing that really sticks with me from my mission is like, so I was on my mission from February of 2014 to August of 2015, and two kind of big things were happening in the United States at that time, which we weren't getting, like, a ton of news. Right. Because you're, like, really secluded from, like, what's going on in the world as a missionary because your access to information is very limited. Like, you can only consume church media and books and music and. And in your emails, you're, like, encouraged to, you know, share about your experiences here and, like, send, like, hope and faith home, you know. But one of my friends who was not a member of the church had emailed me about kind of like the start of, like, the Black Lives Matter movement. And he was like, yeah, it's like, really wild. They're like police, like, forces that are, like, have, like, tanks that are, like, going against protesters and there's, like, fires and stuff. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, I had not heard any of this. Like, this is so wild. And I felt like, as a, like, a white person in, like, a largely, like, indigenous, cultured, like, country, and as like, a North American or like a United States citizen in, like, another country, I should be aware of, like, what's going on, especially with, like, racial tensions in the United States. And a lot of people in Bolivia saw, like, the Mormon Church as, like, an American church, like a United States church. So I. I was like, why aren't. Why don't we know anything about this? Like, like, if someone comes to me and is like, yeah, like, Americans are, like, racist and they're, like, being harmful. Like, right now, like, there's these process happening. I was just like, why are. Why hasn't anyone, like, let us know that? Because it kind of seems, like, relevant to the scape of, like, why you're doing. Yeah, exactly.

Mormon missionary experiences on the mission

Hayley Rall [01:32:21] Yeah.

Sydney [01:32:22] The other thing that happened was that in the United States, gay marriage was legalized. And for that, we had an emergency zone conference. Like, our mission president, like, gave Us all of these, like, talking points, like, how to let people know that, like, even though in the United States, like, gay marriage is legal, like, we still believe that, like, marriages between a man and a woman and how to, like, use these talking points to, like, talk about the family and all these things. And I still was like. Like, all my gay friends were writing me every week and, like, telling me how they're doing and, like, giving me, like, motivation and, like, checking in on me. So I was like, why are we having this, like, emergency zone meeting to

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:13] talk about, like, why gay people shouldn't get married?

Sydney [01:33:16] Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I. And I always, like, I still had, like, my. Like, I believe that, like, God knows, like, our hearts and he knows our situations and, like, like, why. Why would God, like, make people gay and expect them to just, like, suffer their whole lives, like, by trying to fit into a mold that they, like, weren't. The mold was not made for them, you know, I also felt, like, on my mission, like, I was like, I'll probably teach, like, gay people because that's, like, part of my ministry. You know, like, being in the church and being, like, open is, like, I can be a safe place for them to, like, land and learn about the true, like, the true gospel, like, from me, who will be, like, nice and gentle to them about it. And, like, yeah. So, though, that was, like, really interesting to me as a missionary, where I was like, there's a lot of big things happening in the United States right now. Why are, like, why are we have, like, focusing so much on, like, making sure everyone knows that we don't want gay people to get married? Like, yeah, yeah. That it just, like, yeah.

Hayley Rall [01:34:34] And why was there not a similar response for the Black Lives Matter movement of let's talk about, you know, how important it is to make sure that people know they're included, regardless of race, et cetera, et cetera? It seemed pretty clear what the priority was and what triggered that response.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:51] And not to be, like, super, super political here, but wasn't Trump running around that time? And then there was all. Because I remember being on a mission around the same time, probably around the same years, and then all the Mexicans would come to us, because I always had American missionary companions, and they would come to us and say, isn't the candidates running for president, like, racist and against Mexicans? It was kind of interesting. That was what people would come to us, talk about and get our opinions, because we had a white American missionary that could probably talk to them about it. But did you get Some of that.

Sydney [01:35:36] So when I came home was the first that I heard about Donald Trump running for president.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:41] Okay.

Sydney [01:35:42] So, like, just my. I was like, hanging out with some of my friends and they were, like, updating me about, okay, like, things that were happening. So one of my friends, he was like, okay, so, like, deez nuts jokes are back. At the time, there was this, like, other Internet trend that was like, what are those? Like, when you, like, you, like, point to somebody's shoes that, like, are, like, weird, and you go, like, what are those? So they were updating me on, like, really important Internet meme culture. And then my. The same friend, he was like, also, Donald Trump is running for president. And I was like, oh, ha ha ha. And he's like, no, he's actually, like, kind of doing really well and, like, saying, like, a lot of, like, weird stuff. And I was like, oh. He's like, yeah, like, has a chance.

Lexi [01:36:31] Oh, gosh.

Sydney [01:36:32] Like, people are taking him seriously. So that was like, the first time that I heard, like, am I debriefing, like, with my friends? They're like, oh, yeah, by the way,

Hayley Rall [01:36:39] catching you up on all the things.

Sydney [01:36:41] Yeah, exactly. But, yeah.

Coming home from your Mission

Hayley Rall [01:36:42] Do you feel like the you say you're having these experiences, noticing these things, these reactions? Do you feel like coming home from your mission? Where was your faith at the time? Were you still very strong believing? Do you feel like there was these things were making you question the truth of the church? Or was it just things you had kind of noticed? Like, if you could sum up what place you were at coming home from your mission after having experienced all of that, where were you at?

Sydney [01:37:12] Excellent question. I was super, extremely indoctrinated. Like, I was like, in a way, I would say, like, self righteous. Like, and, like, I went home and, like, my mom and my sister were like, on a Sunday, like, we're gonna go get McDonald's. Like, do you want anything? And I was like, no, I don't want anything. It's Sunday. Like, I don't want anything from McDonald's. Like, you know, like, I was just like. And. And I felt. I felt really strongly that I needed to get married. Which is like a flip from, like, what I had was previously important to me. I felt like I needed to get married. I needed to get married quickly. I came home, I, like, did another semester at the local university, and then I transferred to byu, Idaho, and. And I, Yeah, like, I was just like, really? Like, I need to start a family so I can, like, raise them in the church and I need to do My calling. And I need to, like, start dating and, like, read my scriptures every day. And, like, I really.

Hayley Rall [01:38:27] For.

Sydney [01:38:28] For a while, I wanted to, like, keep my same, like, missionary, like, routine because I was like, before my mission, I wasted all this time, like, resting, like, or, like, doing nothing.

Hayley Rall [01:38:39] Sleeping in.

Sydney [01:38:40] Yeah, exactly. So I'm like, I need to, like, do. I. I just was, like, really, like, hyped up to, like, do all my callings. And, like, when I came home, I was going to three wards. Like, I was going to my family ward, and then I was going to the Spanish, like, branch for their services. And then I was going to the ysa.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:59] Oh, wow.

Sydney [01:39:00] Like, a town over, like, and I was, like, going out with the missionaries all the time. And, like, I really, like, wanted to keep up my, like, momentum that I had, like.

Lexi [01:39:11] Yeah.

Hayley Rall [01:39:11] Gained on the mission.

Sydney [01:39:12] Gained on the mission. So, yeah, I was like, super, like,

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:17] so you. So when you got to byu, Idaho, you felt right at home with everyone being members of the church.

Sydney [01:39:25] And I wanted to. And I was like. And everyone was like, you're going to go on, like, so many dates and, like, whatever. And then I got there and it was like, we talked about before how, like, there's not that same, like, camaraderie as, like, when I was in Ohio, like, at the ysa, I went on a date with everyone I wanted to go on a date with to say that. And then I also, yeah, just, like, everyone was like, you're great. Like, you came home from a mission. We love you. And then I went to byu, Idaho, and everyone's kind of like, like, okay, like, we all just.

Hayley Rall [01:40:03] Everyone went on a mission.

Sydney [01:40:04] Yeah, exactly. So I. I felt like I had pretty high expectations. I'd be, like, going on all these dates and, like, having, like, so much fun. And. Yeah, that wasn't really my experience. I also struggled a lot when I was still in Ohio, before I went to byu, Idaho, like, reconnecting with some of my friends who weren't Mormon. Like, I had a friend who had invited me over, and then she was having people over to, like, drink and, like, hang out. And I was like, okay, I have to go home, because, like, I don't drink. And one of her friends was like, well, can't you just, like, drink and, like, repent? And I was like, no. Like, that's not really how it works. And, like, but, like, when I left, I was, like, crying because I felt so, like, oh, Like, I can't, like, hang out with my friend and, like, I can't relate to them anymore. And, like, they're doing things that just, like, aren't in my values. So I felt really, like, isolated from, like, my non member friends. And then also, like, in the ysa, I had a couple instances of, like, men being very, like, creepy towards me, like, in the church. So, like, I had one guy who, like, had messaged me, like, a few times to, like, go on dates. And I was like, no. Like, I'm not, like, interested, but he would, like, never talk to me at church. And one time we. So my sister and I and my mom and the sister missionaries were, like, at our house, like, having dinner. And Lexi, like, looks out the front window and, like, says the name of this guy who has been. Who had been messaging me. And I was like, why did you say that person's name? Like, that's, like, really strange. And she's like, because he's outside, and he was, like, walking by our house, and I was like, oh, my gosh. She's, like, coming to the door to, like, ask me on a date or something. Because I'm, like, not saying yes when he asked me on Facebook. I guess that's what I was thinking. So I was like, I'm gonna go upstairs, like, tell him I'm not home. But then he doesn't come to the front door. And then you see, like, he goes out of the vision. And we lived in, like, a cul de sac, like a court. And then you see him, like, walk up the other side of the court and, like, leave. Like, he just, like, walked by our house, which he knows where our house is because he has, like, church access to, like, church records. Records. Yeah, because everyone has everyone's address and stuff. So that was, like, really kind of, like, unsettling.

Lexi [01:42:55] And it's not like he lived right next to us. He was walking, and it probably would have taken him, like, an hour and a half or two hours to walk from his house to our house.

Gerardo Sumano [01:43:04] Oh, my gosh.

Lexi [01:43:04] So it wasn't close proximities?

Sydney [01:43:07] No. Yeah. And then the other experience I had was I. I had gone on a date with this guy who was, like, a little bit older. I met him at the ysa and he said, like, he served his mission in Salt Lake City, and he, like, had a business in Dayton, Ohio, and we, like, went on a date, and it was, like, fine. But I was like, all right. Like, it was like my first date, like, home from my mission. And after he, like, told everyone in the war that he was, like, in love with me and that he, like, thought I was the one. And I was like, that's not, like. Sorry. Like, that's not really how I, like, experienced it. And he kept, like, we, like, stopped, like, talking, but then he kept, like, trying to, like, find other ways to, like, talk to me. So he was like, oh, like, I'm having trouble with my roommates. Like, I just need somebody to talk to. And his roommates were, like, members of our ward, too. And I was like, I'm not the person for you to talk to about this. Like, but he was just, like, really pushing and, like, kept trying to talk to me. And then eventually, like, anyway, eventually it kind of, like, fizzled out. But within the last year, this person had, like, a Dateline, like, episode come out about them.

Lexi on Being Creepy To Men

Hayley Rall [01:44:23] Oh, wow.

Sydney [01:44:23] That they're, like, actually, like, a huge, like, predator.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:26] Oh, my gosh.

Sydney [01:44:27] Yeah. And, like, my mom, like, sent me a screenshot and was like, is this the guy you went on a date with? And I was like. I was like, yeah, it is. And she's like, yeah, he's on Dateline NBC, like, under the title that he's under, you know, and. But in his Dateline episode, they didn't mention anything about him being a member of the church. They didn't mention him going on a mission. So I'm thinking he's not a member of the church. He didn't go on a mission. And he was just, like, in our ward, like, trying to go on dates with, like, women and, like, I guess had learned, like, what you need to say to sound like a good, like, member of the church. Like, yeah, I started a mission and, like, whatever. And it makes me curious that, like, none of the leadership of the YSA were like, hey, this guy didn't serve a mission. Like, we actually don't even have his records. Like, who is this person who's in a YSA with, like, 18 to 29 year old.

Hayley Rall [01:45:29] Yeah. Vulnerable women.

Sydney [01:45:31] Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, that was kind of like a theme when I was, like, home from my mission of, like, men. Kind of

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:45] creepy.

Sydney [01:45:45] Yeah. Being creepy. And I was like, the heck? I gotta go to byu, Idaho, find my husband, because this is not for me.

Hayley Rall [01:45:52] Like.

Sydney [01:45:53] Yeah. So.

Hayley Rall [01:45:54] Wow. How long were you. How long until you. From when you were home until you went on your mission? Lexi, like, how much did you overlap with each other before you left?

Lexi [01:46:05] I think a year and a half.

Sydney [01:46:09] Yeah.

Lexi [01:46:10] Because she got back my senior year in high school, and then I went right when I turned 19. So she went to BYU, Idaho. And then when I graduated high school, I Also attended BYU Idaho for just a semester together. And then I left May of 2017 for my mission.

Marissa on Going on a Mission

Hayley Rall [01:46:27] Got it. And what led you to want to go on a mission? Was it mainly your sister going or how did you make that decision?

Lexi [01:46:34] Like, she had a lot of influence on that because I really thought my sister was so cool. And I think also being at, like, BYU Idaho at this time, where a lot of my friends I made were like, returned missionaries or there was a lot of excitement about people going on missions. And I was just like, all right, like, this is for me too, I guess.

Sydney [01:46:53] Like.

Lexi [01:46:54] And I remember talking to, like, Sydney one night. She had just gone home from work because we lived together for a minute out there. And I was like, I think I'm going to go on a mission. And she was like, okay, absolutely. And I started telling people, I was like, I'm gonna go on a mission. I'm gonna start my papers. And it all happened really quickly. Cause I think I opened, like, my mission papers at BYU Idaho in, like, March, and I left May 10th for my mission. So it was all like, quick, quick. And so I didn't really have time to think about anything. And I remember, like, after the end of the semester, we had like a week and a half for me to receive my endowments. And so we all, like, went to Ohio to do it through the Ohio Columbus Temple, because it had to be quick. And I remember my mom being stressed because the temple workers were telling her, like, she's not gonna be able to get it in time. And my mom's like, well, she's leaving for her mission.

Sydney [01:47:43] Like, she has to get it.

Lexi [01:47:46] And I, like, it was really stressful. Cause I again, didn't really understand what I was doing. Like, I had, at this rate, like, had learned more. I've like, read the first chapter of the Book of Mormon like, 12 times. Like, that was as much as I needed to know at the time, right? And I got my mission call and I was just really excited. I remember, like, telling my friends, I was like, I have these garments now. And people were like, I don't know what that is. And I'm like, I. Like, it's a sacred covenant that I made to God. Like, I have different underwear. Like, I'm so excited. And people were just like, okay, cool. Like, don't. Why are you talking about your underwear to me?

Hayley Rall [01:48:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lexi [01:48:23] And then I went to the mtc. So it was just a very quick. Like, I had the thought. But when Sydney was leaving for her mission, she kind of had like, months to prepare after she got her mission call. And I thought I would have the same thing, but it was just like, you gotta go.

Hayley Rall [01:48:38] Just really quick. Did you have a similar experience in the temple? Were there any. Was it strange to you at all? Or did you just take it for what it was on the. On the path to getting out on your mission?

Elder Dunn in the Temple

Lexi [01:48:51] I took it for what it was.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:53] It sounds like you were. Took it as like, oh, I'm, I'm. I'm being allowed into the secret club.

Lexi [01:48:58] Yeah, I felt like. I felt really cool that I got to do it. And like, my mom's already done it, my sister's already done it. And like, I had this best friend at byu, Idaho, and he was like, telling me to prepare for some things in the temple that didn't happen. So I was like, prepared for the worst of things that don't exist. And I've learned later on that's like the tall tale that you tell people scary things. So for me, like, the temple, I remember we went at like 7am So I was just trying to stay awake the whole time. And so I didn't really understand what was happening. And it's like no one prepared me that it was a long session.

Hayley Rall [01:49:36] Yeah, it is long.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:38] Two hours.

Hayley Rall [01:49:39] Yeah, totally. So you go through the temple, it's this kind of fast track to the mission. Where did you get called and what was your mission experience like?

Sister Wingate on her Mission

Lexi [01:49:49] So I got called to the California Redlands Mission, which is now the California San Bernardino Mission. I remember, like, getting to the MTC or before we even got into the mtc, it was like, me, my sister and my mom, we were all out here in Provo, Utah, and it was like the morning I was supposed to go, and I was like, I don't want to go. And my mom and my sister were

Sydney [01:50:09] like, no, you got to go.

Lexi [01:50:10] It's going to be so fun. I was like, I don't want to go. Obviously I went because here I am now a returned missionary. But I went into the MTC and it was just like so much all at once where I'm like, smiling and running through. Basically because you had stations, you had to stop by and grab all of your supplies and your books. And then all of a sudden, I sat in my seat in the classroom I was gonna be for the next three weeks. And I was just like, I'm here. Like, there's nothing I can do. Like, I am kind of stuck. And then like an elder walked in and he was just like, hey, I'm elder.

Sydney [01:50:48] I Don't.

Lexi [01:50:48] I don't remember anyone's name, but he said, I'm elder so and so. And I was just like, yeah, like, I'm Sister Wingate. Like, I'm going to the California Redlands Mission. And they all went to, like, everyone in my district. None of us went to the same mission. We all went to very different ones, but they were all in California. And I remember being in a trio. And one of my companions, she was from Tennessee and, like, also a convert to the church and grew up with a single father. And so we bonded. Like, we were inseparable. Like, we were doing everything together. But we did have a companion who was from Utah, grew up with it, and she always felt like we were leaving her out, but we didn't mean to, but it was just like, we're not from Utah. This is not our home. And then we make it to the mission field. Like, the MTC was fun. Enjoyed it. It was weird, but it was fun. And then I get to the mission field in California, and I would say, like, my mission was pretty rough. I didn't get sick like Sydney, but I did have a lot of, like, mental struggles. And I remember, like, I would always be, like, emailing my mom and my sister and just being like, I can't do it. Like, I don't know what's going on. Like, my companions are really mean. And it got to the point that, like, I realized that I was being put because I'm. I'm very loud. I'm very talkative. Like, if someone looks at me, I'm gonna talk. And I realized that my companions kept being these quiet sister missionaries who had, like, struggled with depression their whole mission. And it felt like a chore. Like, it was my job to get them to be social, to get them to have success, and to, like, be able to communicate with people, which at the same time, didn't really feel like it was my responsibility because I was just like, yeah, like, I was called to this mission to be me because I'm loud and I'm vocal. Like, why am I not getting companions like this? And my mission president was always just like, oh. Like, I just. You know, the revelation tells me, you need to be with this sister, but it's like, is it revelation or are you seeing the sister be quiet? And you want them to have success, so you're putting them with a loud sister missionary.

Hayley Rall [01:52:53] So you felt like you were continually put in positions where you were kind of having to take care of a sister who wasn't, who was struggling, who was maybe struggling to do missionary work because of their personality, their disposition. And I can imagine that takes a huge toll when you feel like you're always the one kind of having to carry the missionary work. The conversations.

Lexi [01:53:13] Yeah, because I did have a couple areas where it was like, never like, oh, the Sister missionaries, it would be like, oh, Sister Wingate's here. Because I was the only one who would talk. And it's like at the same time I was struggling with my own mental health, where I had to go to like, the church's services. I don't really remember what it was called.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:35] Family services.

Lexi [01:53:36] Family services where, like, I had to meet with like a therapist and they put me on antidepressants and they like, reach out to my mom and they're like, okay, like your daughter's on antidepressants, like, she's going to be doing good. And my mom was like, if she's depressed, like, bring her home. And they're like, no, the antidepressants are gonna work for her. And I also just remember I have always been very reactive. I may not always make the proper choice or I may not go about situations in the most proper way. And especially being a missionary where we're held to the standard, I still would be very reactive. And sometimes I would cause arguments with my companions, which not fair to them. And I would just like, be so sad all the time or so irritated, or sometimes I would just be good and I'm happy and I'm enjoying being a missionary. And I remember like, talking to my mission president's wife and she was just like, well, Sister Wingate, like, as women we are all just like, emotional. And we always, you know, like, we can get sad about little things that may not be a big deal. Like, do you think you're just being over emotional? And I was just like, tears, like, streaming down my face. And I was like, yeah, maybe I'm just a woman being emotional. And it's like later on in my life I have found out, like, I am diagnosed bipolar disorder. So during my mission, it was like, I'm undiagnosed at this rate. But they were more towards, like, hey, you need to pray more. You need to like, find more faith. Like, you need to be more obedient. Like, are you waking up right at 6:30? Like, maybe that's why you're having a hard time. And it's like, no. Like, there's other triggers to missions that are like, I'm not getting the help I need. And there's triggers and there's hardships. And I'm not saying that other people haven't had hardships, but I feel like a lot of mission presidents are not equipped to take care of the needs of their missionaries in that source.

Hayley Rall [01:55:27] Absolutely. Well, and I'm not super familiar, but it sounds like you were not only not diagnosed, but misdiagnosed. And depression is treated differently than bipolar disorder, so you were probably. That could have made it worse or. I mean, I guess it just goes to show that the church is not resourced to really properly diagnose people who are having these mental health struggles. And to your point, it makes a lot of sense that if you do have mental health struggles, they're going to be exacerbated or maybe even come out on a mission, because there's a lot of triggers to mental health.

How to Deal with a Mental Health Problem on a Mission

Lexi [01:56:02] Yeah. And I feel like with the specific companions I was set with, like, I feel like even if I ran into them in real life today, they would be a little bit of a harder person to, like, socialize with and want to have a relationship with. And so the fact that I was with them 24, seven for six weeks, sometimes more than six weeks. Right. Depending on how many transfers I had. But I remember, like, I was training this one sister missionary, and she hated that I talked to everyone, and I was like, I don't get it. Like, if you want to be a missionary, like, why aren't you talking to people? And she was just like, I want to baptize all these people, but I just hate that you talk to so many people. And I remember being like, sister, like, why don't you think we're getting baptisms? Because, again, like, on the mission, your success is leveled by how many baptisms you have. And then she was just like, I don't know, like, we're just not getting lessons. And I was like, I'm gonna be honest with you. It's you. I'm like, you're not doing great. Like, you should probably go home. Like. And I, at the time, like, I knew that I was being destructive, but I was just like, you can't be a missionary. You can't talk to people. You're annoyed that your trainer is wanting to talk to people. Go home. And that's like, my reactive. Like, I should have not done it. But at the same time, it's like my brain was like, oh, I'm not being a good missionary, and that's why I'm doing this.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:23] And you're is a pressure cooker because you're being pressured all the time to Constantly have conferences and missionary reunions where you're being told you need to baptize. You need to baptize numbers, numbers, numbers. And then you have a mission companion who is like, you know, you feel like it's not helping the situation. Obviously it's. At some point it's going to explode.

Hayley Rall [01:57:48] Yeah, it's a psychological. I mean, regardless of where you are, on the scale of personality, of mental health struggles, two people living together 24 seven perfect strangers for six weeks straight, sometimes 12 weeks. As you said, regardless, that's an immensely difficult thing to do. Not to mention the rigorous schedule, not to mention the pressures. And so I'm just so sorry. That sounds really, really hard to have to deal with while you're dealing with your own mental health and while your mission president is like, oh, this girl's bubbly. Let's send her all the depressed sisters. Because then, you know, hopefully at least some missionary work will get done. I also think that's a huge problem in missions where young people kind of get tasked with taking care of other young people when nobody should be put in that position anyway. Do you feel like while you're dealing with all of that, was that taking a hit on your beliefs, on your testimony? Were you questioning the church? What was your religion relationship like with the church through all that?

Lexi [01:58:52] Yeah, I would say, like, during this time, because it's like you constantly hear, like, turn to scripture, turn to prayer. And I was just like, okay, like, I. This is all I have right now. Like, I can't just call my mom and be like, I'm sad, but I would, like, be praying all the time. And I. I guess, like, during my mission is when I understood what prayer really was. And I remember being like, oh, I don't have to actually just, like, get on my knees and close my eyes and say a prayer. It's like, I could be driving and say a prayer, and I was just, like, praying all the time. Like, I would wake up, like, a little bit early so I could, like, study my scriptures before we had to get out of bed. Because I was like, I need something. Like, I need help. I need guidance. And if this is, like, what's promised to me, it's going to come eventually. And I probably did that for, like, 14 months of my mission, like the last 14, where I was just trying so hard to be good. Because the first little bit of my mission, I didn't really understand what I was doing. Just, like, trying to get into the, like, missionary groove of everything and, like, just learn what my purpose as a missionary was. And I feel like something that was hard for me is, like, I felt like I never really got an answer. And I hate to say this, but it did kind of make me, like, angry. And so I would always tell my mission president. I'd be like, hey, like, I was praying, and I have this feeling that I should be in this area. Or, hey, like, I was praying about this. Like, I think this should be the next step in my mission. And every single time that would happen because I said, oh, I got revelation for myself. I'm gonna let you know. And I guess the stars aligned and he had the same revelation as me. But,

Hayley Rall [02:00:30] yeah, crazy. So that kind of makes you wonder, probably, about how all of this works. Yeah.

Lexi [02:00:38] And I feel like I saw a lot of, like, a lot of my companions, like, probably should have gone home from their missions, because I think the three things, it's like, if they're harmed to themselves, harm to somebody else, or they just cannot do missionary work, they, like, had to go home. And my mission president really, like, did everything he could to keep his missionaries there. And everyone would be like, oh, yeah, like mission president, wife. They're here specifically because they have, like, this knowledge and mental health. And it's like, oh, like, that's so cool. But now that I'm looking back on it, I'm like, did they really have as much information as we thought? Because we put a lot of faith in them. Even towards the end of my mission, I had a companion who she could not do missionary work. Like, we had to keep. Like, we made a rule that we had to be an arm's distance away from each other at all times. Because, like, I would go up and talk to people, and I'd be like, hi, I'm Sister Wingate, and this is my companion who was, like, not even by my side. And she, like. She had, like, suicidal ideations, and she had homicidal ideations. Oh, my gosh. When I.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:41] That's crazy.

Lexi [02:01:42] Crazy. I remember my mission president telling me about that, and I was like, I'm so sorry. Homicidal gosh. And I was like, she should go home. And he was just like, no. Like, her life is better here than it would be back home. And I was just like, I don't know where in the world that you are putting, like, other missionaries, like, sister missionaries in danger. I'm like, even if she just said it to say it, or if it is true, I'm like, that is not a chance that you should be willing to take. And I Remember just, like, every night being, like, so scared as I go to sleep, because I was like, if she has these tendencies, like, anything could happen.

Sydney's Thoughts on Her Mental Health

Hayley Rall [02:02:14] Yeah, well. And you're living alone. You don't have any sort of protection. You're sharing a room.

Lexi [02:02:19] Right.

Hayley Rall [02:02:20] So if someone is having homicidal ideations, it's likely, you know, you're continually in vulnerable positions with that person. That's so scary.

Lexi [02:02:31] Yes. Yes. And I remember telling my mom about it, and my mom, like, calling my mission president and being like, hello? Like, why is this happening? And he was just like, no. Like, Sister Wingate's okay. Like, I've talked to her. Like, we got things under control. So my mission president's telling my mom one thing where it's like, I'm emailing her and being like, this is not good. This is not a good situation. I don't.

Hayley Rall [02:02:52] Oh, gosh, that's so scary. And also just probably causes you to wonder, why are so many people having such a difficult time with their mental health? And, I mean, maybe I'm projecting now, but I remember thinking that on my mission, like, nobody seems like they're doing very well, and if this is what we're all supposed to be doing and this is what God wants from us, then why does everybody seem so depressed? Like, even the missionaries that we're doing okay, we're still, like, some level of depression, it felt like, at least. So, yeah, I can imagine that makes you take a step back and wonder about lots of things when you feel like you're doing what you need to be doing. But not only you, but so many people around you seem to be struggling so immensely and not getting the resources they need to help them.

Lexi [02:03:37] Yeah, I remember, like, in our mission, it was like a big no, no of, like, elders and sisters talking. We had a very, like, what?

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:44] That's crazy.

Lexi [02:03:47] I don't know if something had happened. I never asked. I was just like, oh, okay. Elders and sisters don't talk in the mission. I never questioned it, and I just kept going. And I remember, like, it getting to the point where, like, elders would be like, hey, Sister Wingate, like, are you doing okay? And I'd be like. Like, you can't talk to me like you're an elder. But it's like, here. Here's my community, like, my active community. And I'm like, I can't even check in with them because we have. Like. I was scared. I was scared of being in trouble with my mission president. I was scared of not being obedient on my mission, but at the same time, this is all I had to check in with, and I just couldn't do it.

Hayley Rall [02:04:21] That's intense. Sounds like a really intense mission culture in a lot of ways, too. I mean, there's always some sort of rules around how you're supposed to interact with missionaries of the opposite sex, but that feels really extreme. So you come home from your mission after all of that? Same question that I asked Sydney. Where do you feel like you were when you're coming home from your mission? Where was your faith? What was your next steps?

Lexi [02:04:47] I feel like I was also, like, self righteous just because it's like, I just did this really hard thing and I just came home to Ohio where, like, my friends also, like, didn't know what was going on. And I just left for 18 months, and they're like, hey, you're back. Like, what's going on? And I wasn't, like, nice when I got home. Like, I remember Sydney telling me that she wanted to go get her nose pierced. And I was just like, oh, I'm not gonna do that, because I want to be a mission president's wife one day. And it's like, a nose piercing does not decipher.

Hayley Rall [02:05:20] Well, it shouldn't. No, it probably would, although it should not.

Sydney [02:05:23] Yeah.

Lexi [02:05:25] But I was just like, I would do things like that where I remember, like, I was in the car with my mom, and she, like, almost got in a car accident, slammed on her brakes, and she. I think she said, like, the F word or something, and I just, like, sobbed because I was like, I can't believe my mom said that. And I remember calling, like, Sydney about it, and I was just like, sydney, you would never believe. And she was just like, no, I believe that. Like, absolutely.

Hayley Rall [02:05:48] You're like, yeah, sorry. So, Sydney, where were you at at this time when Lexi got home? Had any developments happened in your faith or did you have an overlap of when you were both super faithful in this way?

When I Was Super faithful and She Was On Her Mission

Sydney [02:06:02] I don't think that we had an overlap when we were both super faithful in this way. So by the time she was on her mission, I was, like, already starting to kind of, like, come back to, like, reality. Like, and in a lot of ways, like, find myself again after, like, my mission. So in the between time where I was home for my mission and before she had gone out, I, like, was dating this guy who, like, we ended, we got engaged, and then, like, ultimately we were just, like, not super compatible, but I had in my mind, like, I need to get married and start a family. And then I also had, like, it doesn't matter. Like, nobody's perfect. Like, you're never gonna find your perfect partner. But as long as you guys are both, like, dedicated members of the church, like, you'll find a way to work it out. So I was, like, not worried at all that we were, like, super incompatible. So we got engaged, and we were supposed to be getting married at the end of the year. And then, like, a month before we were supposed to get married, he, like, broke up with me. Like, and to me, it felt like it was, like, out of nowhere. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, and. And that was really hard for me because I had, like. Well, for lots of reasons, right? Like, broken engagements are hard. But I had, like, felt as though I had received, like, a revelation or, like, an answer to my prayer when I, like, asked if we should get married. So I was like, well, what's that all about then? Because I felt like, yes, and then now it's not going to happen. So that kind of, like, shook me a little bit. But instead, I, like. I just, like, doubled down in a lot of ways. So, like, I started, like, working in the temple, like, every week in Rexburg. So I was, like, going to school full time. I was working part time. I was working in the temple. And then my whole, like. The whole time I had been home from my mission, I was, like, in the Relief Society presidency for, like, every ward that I went to. So I was just, like, making sure I do everything and, like, totally burning myself out and, like. But I felt like, well, this didn't work out, and it was, like, so heartbreaking. So I need to, like, draw closer to God so I can, like, have strength. And I also, like, besides the person that I was dating, I hadn't made, like, a ton of friends in Idaho. And, like, yeah, I just was feeling, like, really kind of, like, disconnected in that way and, like, disconnected from myself until I, like, met, like, a really good group of friends at byu, Idaho, and, like, I met Gerardo and our, like, friend group. And I felt like I was really able to, like, be myself and, like, laugh and, like, have fun and do stuff that was, like, not related to, like, the church. Like, not, like, a family home evening or something like that.

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:13] But still faithful, like, I don't think.

Sydney [02:09:15] Oh, yeah, still faithful. Yeah. Yeah.

Hayley Rall [02:09:17] So we were.

Sydney [02:09:18] We were all, like, members of the church, and, like.

Lexi [02:09:21] Yeah, we were.

Sydney [02:09:22] We were just, like, going out, like, I don't know, on drives and, like, going to McDonald's at midnight and, like, like, going out and, like, dancing, like, but like, basically on campus, like, yeah, we were. We were still. Like, I felt like I found a group of people that, like, I connected with that also, like, shared my values. And that was like, really, I think, changed, like, my trajectory in a lot of ways as well. Because when, like, a couple months after that I met my husband, I was like, in a space where I was really, like, being myself. And I was really, like, upfront about my beliefs, and I was upfront about, like. Like, I believe. Like, one of the questions that I asked him, like, off the bat was like, I was like, if you had, like, gay friends and they invited you to a wedding, would you go? Which, like, a lot of, like, true believing Mormons, like, wouldn't go because they're

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:21] like, especially in the byu. BYU item.

Sydney [02:10:24] Yeah, yeah. And he's like, oh, like, what? Like, what do you think? And I was like, yes, I'll go. Like, I'll be the maid of honor. Like, I'll be, like, officiating the wedding. Like, I'm super. Like, I have a lot of gay friends, and I need you to know that about me. And if you're not okay with that, then, like, you know, like, I was really, like, weeding out. Like, do you align with my values?

Hayley Rall [02:10:46] Yeah.

Sydney [02:10:46] Yeah. And I feel like having the previous experience of, like, being with someone I was, like, not really compatible with. Then I could see, like, wait, no. What do I actually want? And then around that time, so then I was kind of, like, relaxing on some of my strictness, like, in the church too. Like, I was.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:09] But not, like, drinking coffee or like.

Sydney [02:11:11] Right, yeah, exactly. No, it was like, when I was Relief Society president, I was like, giving a lesson about modesty. And I was like, this says men and women need to be modest. So I don't know what, like, why they're always talking about our clothes. But, like, men need to be modest, too, you know, like, that in that kind of, like, pushing against norms. So then while. While Lexi was on her mission and I'm like, reading like, she's, like, having a really hard time, but then she's also like, this is the happiest I've ever been. I love, like, being a missionary and, like, whatever. So I had kind of the experiences that I had post mission and, like, seeing the realities of, like, the larger church as a whole and, like, that church culture that I didn't really know about before. I was able to kind of, like, read between the lines more of, like, what she was experiencing because I had experienced it too. I'm like, okay, I know she's having a really hard time, and, like, her, like, her companions are, like, making it even, like, harder for her. And she's, like, trying to get these resources, but they're, like, not super helpful. But then in her general email out to everyone, it's like, we had a great week and it was amazing.

Hayley Rall [02:12:32] Here's who we taught.

Sydney [02:12:33] Yeah, exactly. So. So I can, like, see that. But then I also know, like, on my own experiences, like, yeah, you could be having a miserable time, but, like, you're supposed to be having the best time of your life and it's supposed to be this great, like, experience. So that was, like, difficult to. And then, like she said when she got home, I was like, after I graduated from byu, Idaho, I got my nose pierced and I was still, like, true believing Mormon, like, super active in the church, like, had a calling, got married in the temple, but I just wanted to have my nose pierced. So I got it pierced and I got a tattoo. Like, before I, like, even was thinking about, like, leaving the church. Like, I was just kind of, like, doing things that felt like, authentic to me. Yeah. So then when she came home and was, like, still in that, like, missionary high mode of, like, I'm gonna do everything perfect and, like, Liz, live the gospel perfectly, I was kind of already like, all right, like, give it time or whatever. Like, I'm sure that's how you feel, but, like, I think maybe I was probably definitely, like, dismissive of. Of some of her experiences too, because I was already like, no, I'm over that now. Like. And she's like, yeah, it's like, it's so great. I love the gospel. And, like, I prayed and I got this answer and I'm like, yeah, just because you got an answer doesn't mean you have to do, like, you know, like, I was like, already kind of like, like, you can have intuition too.

My Sister's Missionary Experience

Hayley Rall [02:14:12] You know, you forget how intense it is. It's really intense. It's an intense experience. As you said, you come home kind of indoctrinated with all of this zealousness towards the gospel, and then, yeah, then you kind of decompress. I think feel like that's probably a pretty relatable experience. So when you got home, your sister is in her decompression, kind of decompressed, but still very much in the church. Actually. First, before we hear about you coming home, I want to hear first from you, Sydney. Sounds like you're exploring, you're pushing back against norms. It's very important to you, to be an ally to the LGBTQ community? Where would you say what started you really questioning things? Was there a specific moment? Was it a series of moments? When did that start for you?

Sydney on Coming Home

Sydney [02:15:07] I think so. I graduated from college in 2018. I did my. I was, like, education major. I did my student teaching, like, in Idaho. And the whole time, like, my husband and I were going to, like, our ward, and we were, like. We had a calling and, like, just doing everything we were, like, supposed to do, and we. 1. One of the first times that I kind of was like, is this for me? Or, like, what's going on? Was, so we went to a Spanish ward in Rexburg, like, after we got married, just because, like, it was like, a family ward instead of, like, a married, like, family ward. And, like, we spoke Spanish, so we were just like, let's just do that and, like, practice our Spanish or whatever. And one of the, like, state conferences that we had that was, like, broadcast, like, every single talk was about, like, Idaho Mormon pioneers. And it was like, we're so lucky to, like, be part of this, like, history of, like, the first, like, members in Idaho, and we're, like, continuing their work or whatever. And I was like, I'm not from Idaho. My husband's not from Idaho. Nobody in my ward is from Idaho. Like, and I was just like, this is so weird that this whole, like, all of these talks are about, like, pioneer heritage, which is, like, in. In the Mormon Church, like, pioneer ancestry is, like, huge. There's, like, Pioneer Day is, like, a holiday or whatever. But we're not pioneers. We're, like, converts to the church. And we're not from Idaho. We're not from Utah. So I was like, this is really strange to be using a time where we should be, like, being enlightened or whatever to talk about, like, your personal family history that, like, I'm not a part of. So that felt like, kind of weird to me. And then after. After, like, student teaching, I got a job in Las Vegas, and we moved down to Las Vegas.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:28] And what year was this?

Sydney [02:17:30] This was in 2019.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:32] Okay. Because I remember because Zach and I would have gone through our faith crisis in January of 2019. And I remember you and your husband going to our house. Oh, sorry. And then.

Hayley Rall [02:17:47] And.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:48] Or apart our apartment, and then we would, like, just talk about everything we were learning. Joseph Smith had this many wives and did this and that. And I remember, like, I mean, you would just take it, but, like, we kind of uncomfortable with it. Like, did any of that kind of, like, ever

Sydney [02:18:07] yeah. So, actually, thank you for bringing that up because. So that I didn't realize until I watched your Mormon Stories episode where you, like, didn't mention me at all. But that's fine. I, Like, I didn't realize at that time that you were, like, deconstructing, because even though, like, we were friends, like, we were really good friends, like, and, like, my husband and I knew that, like, you guys were, like, living together and we're boyfriends and we're, like, gonna get married, and we, like, would go over to your apartment, like, like, all the time.

Gerardo Sumano [02:18:46] Yeah.

Sydney [02:18:48] I had just assumed, like, because you guys were gay and, like, living together that you didn't believe in the church anymore. I did not realize that you still really did. And, like, you as a. As a family unit were, like, wanting to, like, still be in the church, which I think a lot. I would say most members would just assume that, like, oh, you're gay, like, and you have a boyfriend. Like, okay, so you don't believe in the church anymore. But that's not the case. So I remember, like, we would go over and you would, like, tell us all this stuff that you would learn, and we would just, like, listen, and then we'd leave and be like, yeah, Gerardo really wants to talk about the church. I guess, like, we did. Like, I. But I didn't know that, like, you were learning these things for the first time. And I was kind of thinking, like, oh, he's, like, reading, like, anti. Like, church stuff or whatever, because I hadn't, like, earnestly learned it for myself yet.

Gerardo Sumano [02:19:50] That makes sense.

Sydney [02:19:51] Yeah. So, yeah. But, yeah, it was. We were just like, oh, like, he's really on about something this week. Yeah. So then that fall, we moved to Las Vegas. We were in our ward. We went to a Spanish family ward in Las Vegas as well. And everyone was so nice to us. And we're, like, in a new city. We don't have any family in Las Vegas, so it's like, that's your community, you know? And we made friends with a couple who, like, one of them, she was, like, like, reactivating in the church, and then her husband had gotten baptized, and they were, like, close to our age. And I realized that, like, I didn't want to. Like, I didn't talk to them about the church the same way I would talk to, like, my other friends about the church who were, like, all, like, Mormons. Like, all my, like, my BYU, ID friends, where we could kind of, like, complain about stuff that we were seeing or, like, yeah, like, I Could be like, oh, like, it's weird that the, like, this woman in Relief Society went on this, like, weird rant about whatever. Like, I'm not going to mention that to them. I'll be like, oh, yeah, like, the church is great. So that was, like, my first moment where I was like, why do I feel like I need to hide things about the church to these, like, new members? And, like, I started to feel really uncomfortable about, like, missionary work. Like, I went out with the sister missionaries all the time still when I was in Las Vegas. And, like, we. We had a missionary lesson about, like, the Word of Wisdom. And the sisters were like, oh, like. Like, we read the scripture. And then they were like, so, like, do you promise, like, not to drink alcohol and not to drink coffee? And then in the scripture, it says, like, that you should eat meat sparingly, like, only in times of famine and, like, focus on, like, eating, like, grains. And the person that we were meeting with, she was like, oh, well, I'm about to start a keto diet, so, like, I'm gonna be eating a lot of meat and, like, not a lot of grains. And they were like, oh, yeah, that's fine. Like, that has, like. That's, like. That's totally fine. Just, like, don't drink too much.

Mormon women on the issues of the church

Hayley Rall [02:22:16] Just ignore that part.

Sydney [02:22:17] Yeah, exactly. And I was like, like, it's actually kind of bad for your body to not eat any grains. Like, and it's not that bad to, like, drink coffee sometimes, you know? Like, yeah, I was, like, starting to be like, this feels uncomfortable, but, like, I don't know, like, how to move with this discomfort. Like, I don't know, like, what it means to me. So it's just kind of like, okay, we'll just, like, keep moving through it.

Hayley Rall [02:22:45] Yeah.

Sydney [02:22:46] And then it wasn't until I stayed in Las Vegas for, like, a semester because I was teaching. And then my husband had to go back to byu, Idaho, first semester. So we were, like, living apart, and I, like, got really sick, and I had my ward there, and they, like, one of the sisters from Early Society, like, drove me to urgent care, and, like, they brought me food and, like, washed my laundry for me, and I was just, like, so, like, grateful. I was like, like, how. Like, where. How else could I have a community like this to, like, take care of me? So I was kind of balancing that, too. Like, I'm having this discomfort about, like, the doctrines of the church, but also, like, I have this community that I really care about and are really good to me and, like, really loving and it wasn't until, like, the beginning of the pandemic, like, we. My husband and I, kind of, like, fizzled out on, like, virtual church, and we were just kind of, like, taking, like, a break. Like, I think a lot of people kind of had this experience and feeling like, oh, like, this is kind of. Kind of nice to just be like us. And when. When things started to open back up, we, like, tried to go to church a couple times, but it was felt kind of, like, uncomfortable. We were like, ask. Like, we had moved also, so we were, like, in a new ward, and they, like, asked us, like, to do a calling, like, right away. And I was like, no. Like, we're kind of like. Like, you don't know anything about us. And I also thought that. I felt like they extended this calling to us so immediately, and I. I recognized it as, like, a straight privilege where, like, if my friends who are gay and still believe in the church, like, came to a ward for the first time, they would not be extended a calling at all. And I felt like, should I accept to be able to do something that, like, my loved ones can't do? So, like, all of these things were kind of, like, coming up around the same time. Like, all of this, like, discomfort until, like, in, I think, 2021. The, like, musket fire talk is kind of, like, where it all came to a head. So this is, like, Jeffrey R. Holland's talk that he gave, I think, like, at a BYU devotional maybe.

Gerardo Sumano [02:25:43] So an apostle. An apostle of the church gave a pretty sense talk about being part of the LGBT community and, like, members should fight for traditional values and traditional family, like, with musket fire, that kind of stuff. Red kind of rhetoric.

Sydney [02:26:05] Yeah. So I was like, this is, like, a group of people who are already being attacked with, like, physical violence. Like, people are being killed because they. Well, they're being killed because people hate gay people and, like, trans people. Not because they are gay or trans, but because of hateful people who are, like, harming them. And that was the first time that I said, like, out loud to my husband. I don't think I want to be part of this church anymore. Like, and even then, like, after I said it, we kind of just were like, okay, like, we don't want to be part of the church. And then it was a while before we started digging into, like, what does that mean for us? And, like, how do we feel about it? But, like, that was a moment where I was like, I. I don't want to be part of this and not because, like, I still didn't have a great understanding of, like, true, like, church history or anything. Like, I believed what. What is being said is harmful and not aligned with, like, the gospel of Jesus Christ, as I understand it, and I don't want to be part of it.

Lexi [02:27:26] Yeah, Yeah.

Hayley Rall [02:27:27] I think that talk just for a lot of people, because I can relate. Who were trying to make sense of the church's policies for LGBTQ people and trying to. Well, but, you know, we still love them, or I still love them, and maybe there's something in the afterlife that we don't understand. Then when someone, like, an apostle of this church just says such blatantly hateful things, it's like, I can't keep justifying this stuff. Right. Like, I feel like that was such a final straw for so many people because it was just so obvious. Even though I think the church was always teaching those things, it was kind of like for our generation, that moment where it was like, they're telling us who they are, and, you know, you can't. It became almost impossible to justify at that point because of how clear they made it. Yeah, Lexi, same question for you. You are now home from your mission, so you're still on that high. Tell us about decompressing and then when that maybe led into deconstructing.

Deconstructing My Mission Life

Lexi [02:28:42] So when I got home from my mission, I stayed in Ohio for, like, about six months before I moved out to Utah, because I did go to school out here. And I remember, like, I got a job at a bank. Like, I try to get a calling, like, to work in the temple, but they told me I couldn't for some reason. And I was just like, okay, like, that's random, but I guess I don't want to drive an hour and a half anyways to go work in the temple, like, twice a week. And then I was just, like, trying to reconnect with my friends. I was trying to go out with the missionaries. I didn't transfer my records into our YSA branch because I did not want a calling, but I did want a calling in my family's ward because I wanted to go out with the missionaries. And so I also. I didn't do what Sydney did, but I did go to two churches. I would go to, like, my parents ward, and then I would go to the ysa. And then I remember, like, June. This is two months before I moved to Utah. One of my friends that I had met at byu, Idaho, who lived up in Canada, came out because he wanted to go, like, see Chicago. He wanted to go to Pride in Columbus, and there's, like, a lantern festival going on. And I remember, like, he came down, and then two of my other friends who didn't really understand that what I was doing, like, what the whole, like, Mormon mission thing with the church. But they just wanted to be supportive. And I remember just being like, wow, like, these are some of my greatest friends. And I just keep leaving them for this religion. But then again, I was just like, whatever, I'm going to be closer to my sister. And so then I do all my fun things. Me and my mom, we pack up my car, we drive out to Utah, we take a detour and stop by Sydney at BYU Idaho. And then we move myself in so I could go to school out here. I was living in Provo at the time.

Hayley Rall [02:30:32] Which school?

Lexi [02:30:33] I went to uvu.

Hayley Rall [02:30:34] Okay.

Lexi [02:30:35] And honestly, love uvu. I have only positive things to say about them. I feel like they have great support. But I really, really wanted to go to byu, but I didn't get accepted because my grades weren't. Weren't that good. But now I am grateful that I didn't go, and so I moved here. August of 2019. I only have a handful of months before the pandemic hit. So it's like, I'm going to church. I'm trying to be active. Like, I'm going to, like, the YSA activities. I'm going to church every Sunday. And then, like, my roommates, one of them was my MTC companion. One of them was a sister for my mission. And then the other one was just someone who also, like, very strong in the church. And we were always trying to, like, do, like, a family home evening together. We were always excited to go to these events together. Like, we just tried to keep things, like, pure. And when the pandemic hit and, like, church was kind of just, like, off for a minute, and we were trying to figure things out, I remember being like, okay, I'm gonna take this time to, like, figure myself out. Because it's like, no one's seeing what I'm doing except for my roommates. And I stopped, like, wearing my garments, and I was just, like, going to parties at this time. I wasn't, like, drinking. Like, I was just going out with my friends who were drinking and stuff, just, like, getting into that environmenting. Like, do I want to be in this environment or do I not? Because I felt like it was the time. Not during a pandemic, right, to go to a party.

Hayley Rall [02:32:02] But I see what you're saying. You felt like you had some space.

Lexi [02:32:05] Yes.

Hayley Rall [02:32:05] Gave you time to reflect and realize. Like, oh, maybe I want to revisit where I'm putting my time and attention in my life. Yeah, right.

Lexi [02:32:14] And, like, I wasn't wearing my garments at this time. And I remember my roommate, like, she was wearing her garments, but I was going to these parties with her where she was getting, like, blackout drunk, and she'd be like, well, maybe you should wear your garments. And I'm like, oh, Like, I don't know. I don't know if necessarily you can really tell me that, because, like, you're not really up to code for, like, wearing garments. And then she was just like, hey, that's between me and God. Like, if I want to wear my garments. I was like, no, like, absolutely. But don't. Don't tell me that I should be wearing them. And then, like, the pandemic just kept going, and I just, like, I'm working. I'm going to, like, work with, like, troubled teens at the time. Like, these teens who are not from Utah, they're from all over the country. So the only thing they know about, like, the Mormon religion is what their, like, staff have been. And I worked with both people who were very strong in the church and very, like, people who were never a part of the church or people who were a part of the church and, like, went on missions and left the church. Like, it's just a huge melting pot. But everyone knew what it was. And I remember I would just, like, lie and be like, yeah, like, no, I've never been a part of the church. I just moved here to go to UVU because I just, like, was embarrassed. And I was like, why am I embarrassed of the church where everyone knows what it is? I'm like, it's not cool. It's not uncool to be a part of it. Like, if it's what I believed, it's what I believed. But I was just, like, soul on. Like, I don't know. I don't know anything about the church. And then I remember, like, the sister from my mission got a job there and just, like, exposed that she knew me from our LDS mission. And I remember one of the kids coming up to me, and they were like, so, Lexi, I heard you went on an LDS mission. I said, oh, I like, I just, like, I felt so stuck in that moment because I was like, I can't lie anymore because now I'm exposed. But. And then I remember, like, one of my co workers is, like, pretty strong in the church. He did not Have a car. So I would drive him home from work because he was just a sweet baby angel. And we were talking about the church, and he was just like, hey, if you ever want to come back to church, like, you are more than welcome to come with me. And I was just like, how worthy do you feel right now? And he was like, do you need a blessing? And I was like, yeah, I would like a blessing, actually. And he was like. You could just see the excitement on his face. And in the blessing, though, I remember it saying that. Him saying that the step that I wanted to take to, like, walk away from something, I needed to do that. And I was like, all right. Like, that's my answer right there. Like, I've already haven't been going to church. Like, I stopped wearing my garments. I've just been doing my own thing, like, figuring out who I am. And now this blessing, if it is true, if it's not true, it just confirmed that I needed to walk away.

Alexi Gets a Priesthood Blessing

Hayley Rall [02:35:01] A priesthood blessing.

Sydney [02:35:02] How were these do you feel? Is such a funny question.

Hayley Rall [02:35:06] And also him just like, jackpot, baby. I'm worthy and I'm ready. And then giving a blessing, which ultimately you interpreted as, I can step away from this thing.

Lexi [02:35:16] Yeah. And it was, like, at first, really scary because I was just like, wow. Like, I live in Utah. I went on a mission. Like, my sister at this time. Like, this is when we were not really talking to each other about it, still trying to support each other. I was like, my sister's really active in it. Like, my parents want to get sealed as a family in the temple. Like, what do I do? And I remember trying to let Sydney know without, like, actually telling her. So I would, like, send her pictures of me, like, wearing something, like a shirt that obviously my shoulders are hanging out. And I would, like, kind of make comments here and there. And then I remember I went down to visit her for, like, things. Thanksgiving or something. And we went on, like, Fremont Street. And I was like, I'm gonna get an alcoholic daiquiri. And she was like, oh, all right. Like, if that's what you want. And I was like, okay, this is, like, the best transition I have. Because she was so supportive. I didn't end up getting it. I just wanted to see, like, what the feeling was. And she was just like, yeah, absolutely. You want it? I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna spend $30.

Hayley Rall [02:36:19] You're like, I was testing you. Yeah. Well, where were you at at that point? Sydney.

Sydney [02:36:23] So I feel like I was like, probably, like, still like, battling with, like, my, like, discomfort.

Hayley Rall [02:36:35] So you weren't. You weren't fully out?

Sydney [02:36:37] Yeah, I wasn't fully out, but there was, like, a long period of time before I was, like, fully out that I was like, whatever. Whatever. Yeah, exactly. We're, like, in my personal, like, worship or whatever, Like, I was still, like, doing what I felt like, was, like, true to me and what I believed, like, about the church and about the world. But I was also like, yeah, it's hard. Like, if you are feeling like this is how you, like, deal with it, that's. That's all right. And I. I kind of feel like. I also wasn't sure, like, where she was, like, where Alexi, like, stood, because, like. Like, she just said, like, she was, like, not doing anything in the church and then was like, hey, can I get a blessing? So it was kind of, like, back and forth what she would share with me, too. Like, she would say, like, oh, like, I went and did this thing that doesn't align with the church. And then, like, she text me later in the week, like, yeah, I went to church. And, like, I met my bishop. He's so precious. And I'm like, okay. Like, so I just wasn't sure, like, where what her, like, situation was or what her, like, beliefs or goals for herself were. So, yeah, I was just kind of like, all right, like, if that's what you. Where you're at right now, do your thing. Yeah, all right. Like, Vegas, baby.

Gerardo Sumano [02:38:06] At what point does it actually collide where, like, you actually tell each other that you have left?

Lexi [02:38:14] I think in, like, the summer of 2022, I actually ended up moving to Las Vegas. My, like, mental health was pretty bad, and Sydney and her husband had, like, talked about. And they're like, hey, you can come live with us for the summer. Like, try to figure things out, like, just to have the support of family. And I think that's, like, when we had our actual. Like, we shared our stances on what we were believing, what we're not believing, like, that we both are just, like, not with the church. And I feel like at this moment, we had done so much of, like, we both kind of knew. And so there was a lot more, like, love and, like, trust in the moment where we were both like, yeah, like, this is not for us anymore. And there was no judgment. It was just, like, all acceptance. Like, absolutely. Like, I support you. You support me?

Gerardo Sumano [02:39:03] Yeah. Nice.

When Did You Both Stop Believing in the Church?

Hayley Rall [02:39:05] Well, I just am curious, and I can totally relate, too, but I'm curious why, during your deconstruction journeys, why? Or maybe you were a little bit more than you've shared, but why do you feel like you weren't sharing with each other as you were deconstructing? Like, what led you to wait until you both kind of thought that you were. Both were out? If that's. If that's how you feel like it was.

Sydney [02:39:32] I think that part of it is, like, because we were kind of, like, accountable to each other in our, like, progression in the church. So, like, when I was on my mission and I was thinking about going home, I was thinking, no, I can't go home, because I need to be an example for my sister in the church. And then when she was on her mission, she's like, I have to do this because, like, my sister did it. And, like, we were just kind of, like, always had that dynamic, like, in the church and would, like, celebrate, like, each other's milestones. And so I think definitely that's, like, part of it. I. And I think for me, the other part of it was, like, because I didn't know where I was gonna end up in my, like, faith journey. I didn't want to, like, tell her, like, I'm not going to church or, like, I'm not. Like, I. Because I didn't know. Like, if I say it out loud, does that mean I have to leave? So just kind of, like, acknowledging that, like. Like, I said, like, even to my husband, I didn't. Like, we. My husband and I both also were, like, having discomforts on our own about the church and, like, about the way things were handled, like, at the beginning of the pandemic and with, like, the Black Lives Matter movement. And there was, like, a thing that came out about, like, the church was, like, mis. Using funds or, like, not being transparent and where they're spending their tithing. So, like, we. We just were, like, kind of like, what's going on? But even, like, with my husband, it wasn't until the. The musket fire talk that I said out loud, like, I. To him, I don't want to be part of this. So it was, like, even longer after that before I was able to, like, admit to my sister, I'm not going to be part of this anymore.

Gerardo Sumano [02:41:45] Right. Because at that point, you were. You were still believing. Right? I mean, not believing in the. The sense that you were doing everything, but, like, you hadn't deconstructed your belief in, like, Joseph or.

Sydney [02:41:58] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [02:41:59] First mission, Book of Mormon, that kind of stuff.

Sydney [02:42:02] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:42:02] So when did that. When did that. Does that happen for you, Sydney?

Sydney [02:42:07] So I feel that. So I left. Like, I decided I didn't want to be part of the church, like, in fall of 2021, I guess. And. And that that winter, I went to a, like, a church, like, service, and I actually, like, shared with you and Zach about it, like, because on my way home from it, I stopped at Zach and Gerardo's house, and I was, like, telling them, like, I felt really uncomfortable during the service, But I don't know what that, like, means for me, because it. I was like, do I believe in, like, the afterlife that the church has, like, taught me or Joy, like, not believe in any of it? And I. And something that Gerardo said to me was like, you don't have to figure it out right now. And I was like, that's a good point. I don't. I don't have to figure it out right now. And I can, like, pick and choose, like, what I want to think about and what I want to focus on. So, like, before that, I hadn't really, like, gotten into any of the, like, post Mormon, like, resources, basically, that there. That exists, like, Including Mormon Stories podcast. I hadn't really, like, listened to any episodes because I. I kind of was, like, frozen. Like, I don't want to, like. Like, I, like, I've made my decision of, like, what I want my relationship to the church to be, but I haven't, like, looked at, like, the whole of, like, what does this mean, like, eternally for me.

Hayley Rall [02:44:06] Right.

Sydney [02:44:08] So that was, like, after, like, I feel like you kind of, like, gave me permission to, like, unpack it, like, at my own speed. Because I felt like I. I always, like, kind of struggle with, like, black and white thinking. So I felt like if I'm gonna dig into, like, what I believe, I have to, like, figure it all out right now, and that's not true. Like, I can, like, slowly, like.

Gerardo Sumano [02:44:33] Yeah, figure.

Sydney [02:44:34] Yeah, exactly. So, like, I know a really popular resource is People read, like, the CES Letter. And I was like, I don't think I want to read that. Like, I don't know. I feel like there'll be a lot of things that that will bring up for me. So then I was like, well, let me just listen to Gerardo's, like, Mormon Stories podcast, because I know him, and I know a lot of his story already.

Gerardo Sumano [02:44:59] I actually don't know. Didn't know this part of the story.

Sydney [02:45:01] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So I was like, that. That was, like, the first episode that I listened to because I was like, this is my friend and that's when I realized, like, I mentioned before, that I didn't know that you hadn't, like, that you still believed in the church for as long as you did. Yeah. So I. I feel like then I was like, okay, I can listen to some podcast episodes or I can, like, read some resources, because there's also, like. Like, I mentioned when I first started going to church that there's, like, there's a whole language, like, in the church that if you've never been to the church, you don't understand. Like. Like. Yeah, like, ordinances and restoration and, like. Yeah. Covenants. And when you leave the church and you enter, like, specifically post, like, Mormon or ex Mormon spaces, there's a whole other, like, language of, like, deconstruction and nuance and, like, well, the names of the people.

Gerardo Sumano [02:46:10] Sandra Tanner or whatever.

Sydney [02:46:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hayley Rall [02:46:15] Just the information. I mean, I've learned way, way, way, way more in my deconstruction about the church than I ever even wondered about while in the church. So it can feel really daunting. It still feels daunting to me a lot of times.

Sydney [02:46:29] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So that. That kind of, like, started my actual deconstruction. So there were several months where I was like, okay, I'm not in the church, but, like, what does that mean? Like, do I. I don't know. Because some people have a similar conclusion, I guess, where they think, like, okay, the mainstream church is, like, not aligned with the actual teachings of Jesus Christ. I think I need to start my own group and, like, practice some things that the church used to talk about. You know, like, you can take that, like, okay, the church is, like, not doing what it's meant to do and interpret it a lot of different ways.

Good advice for leaving the church

Hayley Rall [02:47:17] Totally.

Sydney [02:47:18] So for me, it wasn't like, okay, the church isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing. I need to, like, find a new church. It was like, the church isn't doing it for me. I don't even. Like, did I even. Do I believe any of this? Do I believe in a God or an afterlife or whatever?

Hayley Rall [02:47:37] Yeah, yeah. I think it's really, really lovely advice that you gave Gerardo, because I think sometimes that can even be. That can prevent people from doing what they feel like they want to do in leaving the church, because then all of a sudden you feel like, well, then what do I think about an afterlife? What do I think about. Obviously, death is a huge one. What do I think about my purpose of life? I think it's really great advice for someone beginning deconstruction which I think a lot of times it starts in earnest when you decide to actually step away from the church to, you know, say that that's probably going to be a lifelong process in a lot of ways. And so I think that's really helpful. I want to ask the same question of you, Lexi. When you, you know, you said you kind of just, you told us how you decided to step away. Is that did you have a similar journey? Did you then kind of dig into it more? How did you move from there?

Lexi on Her Step Away From the Church

Lexi [02:48:34] I think, I think there's a lot of different directions I took. I don't think it was just like a one track thing because at the same time I did not really want to accept it because I like, like my garments, for example, I kept them in just like a trash bag and I moved to like three different places where my garments were just in this giant trash bag because I was like, not ready to part with them.

Hayley Rall [02:48:58] Didn't want to wear them, but didn't want to throw them away.

Sydney [02:49:00] Yeah.

Lexi [02:49:00] And I still had like my missionary tag like on advertisement everywhere I was going because it was like, I'm so proud of it. And another thing is, it's like I didn't really want to tell my sister about it because I didn't know where she was and I didn't want her to judge me. And I was also afraid she was gonna tell my mom. I was. And so I think when I, I didn't really look into Deep Doctrine because for me I was just like, I don't wanna learn more. I'm like, I don't need to learn more about why Joseph Smith did what he did. I don't need to learn more about polygamy. I don't need to know more. Right in this moment. I know enough that I don't wanna be a part of it. So just like I know everyone goes through their healing process differently and goes through trauma differently, but for me, I was just like, I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to go through it. I don't, like, there's no reason for me because the best way for me to step away is to step away completely and not have it run my life. And I still run into people now who it's the reason they do everything is because they grew up Mormon. And I was just, my brain is always like, okay, like, I understand that's how you, you deal with that. But to me, I'm like, I just want to forget about it because I feel like I Have had enough, like, negative experiences. And I feel like it made me doubt who I was for so long, where it's like, no. Like, if I think about the church and I talk about the church and it's in my everyday vocabulary, I'm not going to continue to grow. And again, I know everyone. It, like, processes things differently. But for me personally, it was enough. And I remember just, like, taking scissors just on the off chance that things are true. I still cut up my garments.

Hayley Rall [02:50:42] Better to be safe. Yeah.

Lexi [02:50:45] And I had so many of them. And I remember I was just, like, cutting them up for, like, two and a half hours, Just making sure that I got, like, every little detail. Like, it's just gone.

Hayley Rall [02:50:54] Yeah. For those who don't know, with the garments, when you are ready to dispose of them, like, if you're still in the church and they're dirty or you outgrow them, you're supposed to cut the symbols out before you just throw them away. Like, it's pretty blasphemous. I would say to just, like, throw your garments in the trash with the symbols of the garments still intact. So that's why you were cutting them out?

Lexi [02:51:13] Yes. However, I was cutting up, like, the whole garment. I was just like, I don't want anyone to know, like, what these were. And I threw them away. And I was just like, okay. And I remember, like, one of my best friends for my mission, I gave her my scriptures from my mission that had, like, all my notes on it. Because I was like, I know this is gonna mean a lot to her, because to me, it doesn't mean anything anymore. And I. That. That was kind of it. And I remember just being so scared to tell my sister about it because I was like, this is like, my best friend or like, my mom. Like, these are my support group. But at the same time, I was like, I'm able to hide this because I don't live in the same state as any of them. Because, like, the whole thing has always been like, what is Lexi up to? What's Lexi gonna do next? Nobody knows. And I purposely kept it like that so no one could ask me questions.

Hayley Rall [02:51:59] Was it such a relief when you finally were able to tell and were met with love and acceptance? It sounds like maybe it wasn't that easy, but what was it like when you finally were able to tell that truth?

Lexi [02:52:13] It's been pretty nice. And I think one of the things with it, too, is, like, it's built mine and my sister's relationship, like, immensely. I might tear about this. Cause I love my sister, but I feel like for a long time, there is a lot of judgment when I would, like, talk to Sydney about things. And I feel like now if I turn to her, and I was just like, hey, this is what's going on. She's very quick to be like, okay, how can I support you if this is what you want to do? Absolutely. And it's just like. It feels nice because it feels like she is on my side 100%. And I hope she feels the same way that I'm on her side 100%.

Hayley Rall [02:52:48] That's so lovely. Gerardo might have another question, but the last question I want to ask, which I think you touched on there is. I know for me, personally, even people I've known my whole life after leaving Mormonism myself, it almost feels like I get to meet people again, because I feel like I'm now actually myself. And so I just wanted to ask. And maybe you can answer this, Sydney, since Lexi spoke to it. But what it's been like for your relationship to maybe reconnect or to connect again in a different way now, having gone through all that you've gone through,

What It's Been Like to Connect With My Sister After Leaving the

Sydney [02:53:22] I. I feel very similar. That, like, there's more of a. An openness in our. The way that we communicate with one another. And before, there was, like, a lot of judgment and a lot of, like. Like a prescribed path that we need to follow, right? Like, we go on our missions, and then we get married in the temple, and then you start a family, and you keep going to church, where now there's, like, a freedom of, like, we can just do what we want to do and what feels authentic to us. And so when. When my sister shares with me, like, plans that she has, I'm not thinking of it through this lens of, like, what should she be doing? Because there's nothing she should be doing besides, like, what she wants, you know? I feel like it has been helpful to me to be a better sister to her and to, like, be very open. And it has definitely helped me to understand as well. Like, Lexi mentioned earlier that later, after her mission, she was diagnosed bipolar. And that has helped me, like, learning about bipolar disorder and what that can look like. And I think that that has really helped me to understand and, like, be open and, like, gentle with. With things that she's going through. Where before, like, she was saying in. In the mission and then the church, it's like, oh, well, are you praying or are you going to church? And I think if I were still in the church, I would maybe say that to her rather than like, are you like doing other things that. That can be helpful to you for your mental health or just checking in, how are you feeling? And like, what state are you in to kind of guide our conversations of like, how I can best support her or if she even needs support, if she's just telling me to tell me and not really expecting like a solution or an answer or things like that. I think in the same way, like, I have like, I've always had like really bad like anxiety and I think that the church really like augmented that where like, I was always worried, like, like, what's my next move? And is that what God wants me to do? And is that gonna put me on the path, like to heaven or whatever? And I feel like in my own life I can just like do what I want to do and I can prioritize what's important to me. So in my family, like with my husband and I had my first baby earlier this year, so I have a six month old at home and I feel like, so grateful that like, we can like be together as a family and just be like present and follow the path that we want to rather than like, I don't know, like, I can't. I. I'm grateful that I don't have like a newborn baby at home and my husband is like at church, like doing his calling and I'm like at home by myself or. I worried a lot before about like losing the community in the church where this week, while I'm out of town, my husband is home with our. Our baby alone for the week. And we have friends, like, I have friends who are going to be checking on him every day and like giving him a couple hours to like decompress and like do a chore or whatever. Like, I don't know, I just feel like I have such a beautiful community, like outside of the church that's like more open to just like appreciating me for me and not like me because I'm in the church.

Gerardo Sumano [02:57:48] Yeah.

Sydney [02:57:49] Yeah.

Hayley Rall [02:57:50] I love that. That's beautiful.

Gerardo Sumano [02:57:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not sure I have any other questions, but this has been great.

Sydney [02:57:58] It was beautiful.

Hayley Rall [02:57:59] Thank you so much. It's. I said this, I think before we started recording, but I think it's really beautiful to have you here as sisters and I'm so happy for you. I'm happy that, you know, it's not always the case that faith journeys always line up and they didn't perfectly of. But I'm just so happy that you both have experienced so much life together. You came to the church later in life, and just to have someone to go through that journey with in so many ways is really beautiful. And you seem like such great sisters to each other. So thank you so much for sharing your story. I've learned a lot from you both. And thank you everyone for listening.

Gerardo Sumano [02:58:37] And we'll see you again in another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Goodbye, everybody.

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