Introduction and Guest Background

John Dehlin [00:00:28] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is October 12, 2017 and we have sort of current events Mormon Stories podcast that we're sharing with you today. Some of you will know that who've been paying attention in the news that recently, as recent as yesterday, many of us became aware that the Boy Scouts of America are starting to expand to include girls or young women into the Scouting program in various ways.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] Of course, those of you who are Mormon will know that the Mormon Church and the Boy Scouts of America have a very long and in some ways healthy and constructive. In some ways, we'll see a relationship with the Boy Scouts of America.

John Dehlin [00:01:19] And so we're just curious to sort of understand what's going on with the Boy Scouts. Let's learn a little bit about the history of the Mormon Church and the Boy Scouts and then let's talk about the history of the Boy Scouts as it relates to women, girls and LGBT youth and try and make some sense of what's going on and what the future might hold.

John Dehlin [00:01:40] We are interviewing today Peter Brown, who is the chief Financial officer for the Grand Teton Council of the Boy Scouts of America. Now before we actually jump into that interview, let me just give a few very quick announcements. I'll try and do it in under a minute. Follow us on Instagram and Twitter ormondstories like us on Facebook the Mormon Stories Podcast page. Please like us there. Please give us a positive review both on Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page and on itunes. If you can go to Mormon Stories Podcast, give us a positive review on itunes. That makes a big deal. We have events coming up October 27th in Utah County.

John Dehlin [00:02:18] Finding spirituality and improving mental health during a faith crisis. We have a half day workshop November 17th on healthy relationships in Utah county that's on marriages, communicating with believing family and friends, raising healthy children. We are going to be in the Bay Area November 9th and 10th and of course next fall we're going to be doing a cruise through the Bahamas October 24th to 28th.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] Several people have signed up. That's going to be super exciting. We are also looking for a web developer, someone who really knows WordPress, WordPress frameworks and graphic design to renovate the Open Stories foundation websites, especially the podcast pages. So please email us@staffpenstoriesfoundation.org if you have questions about our events or know someone who would be good for this job. Also check out MormonStories.org events to register. To learn more about our events and register all right, Again, we're broadcasting this live on Facebook Live. So we want to thank everyone for joining us today, and we want to very much encourage those joining us live to post comments and questions and because we want this to be interactive and to incorporate your questions and comments. So without any further ado, Peter J. Brown, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Peter J. Brown [00:03:42] Hi. Good to be here.

John Dehlin [00:03:44] Yeah, it's good to have you. All right, so why don't we start by you giving us just a really brief background of your Mormon pedigree, as you wrote.

Peter J. Brown [00:03:55] Well, so I come from, you know, the. Just like other people you interview come from the stock, pioneer stock. Born and raised in Salt Lake county, went on a mission, went to BYU, met my wife at BYU, although it took me about 10 years to get there, but. And then we've been married about 10 years. Both of us went on missions. I went to Miami, Florida, she went to Kentucky. And so that's kind of where we're at. And last couple of years, we've, we've kind of been angling along a little bit with the Denver Snuffer movement. She and I have been. But we're still.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] Do you want to talk about how that happened or do you just want to keep that brief?

Peter J. Brown [00:04:44] Just that just started reading on some stuff and got, just kind of got into it actually was to start off as an anti apologist against him and started to argue against him and then, then kind of came around to his way of thinking. But I guess the only reason I'm saying that is that, you know, I've come away from that experience and I've tried to maintain a really healthy and positive relationship with LDS Church as a friend and an ally to them, especially with respect to Scouting. But I am, you know, I'm, I don't feel like I've got to necessarily protect the church. That's just, I just want to kind of put that out there for people.

John Dehlin [00:05:28] You're friendly to the church, but you're not a stooge for the church, Correct?

Peter J. Brown [00:05:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] Okay, that's great. All right, so talk to us, just briefly, about how you got involved in working for the Boy Scouts of America.

Peter J. Brown [00:05:41] So, you know, a lot of people that end up working with the Boy Scouts of America, it starts off because they get involved as kids. For me, I got involved at 18. I, I was invited by a professional scouter to work at Scout camp, and I started working at scout camp in 1994, and I stopped for two years to go on my mission and came back and did that through college. To pay the bills and graduated. And it was right after 9, 11, and there were no jobs. And the Boy Scout said, hey, come work for us. So I reluctantly, after nine months of unemployment, said, sure, I'll come work for you.

Peter J. Brown [00:06:14] I really don't want to. A lot of us have that similar story. And so I ended up working for the Boy scouts. Started in 2004 is when I started working for them, took a break, and then came back in 05 and 06.

History of Boy Scouts and the LDS Church

John Dehlin [00:06:29] Okay, so let's talk just briefly about the history of the Boy Scouts and kind of the LDS Church. I imagine that Scouting. Tell us what you can just kind of about Scouting before and after the church kind of really stepped up its participation.

Peter J. Brown [00:06:49] So, you know, I think it's helpful for people to understand that when the Boy Scouts of America was formed in 1910, you got to put it in context to what was happening with the church at the time. Joseph F. Smith was the prophet. They just finished with the Reed Smoot hearings and they were starting to prosecute and excommunicate some of the polygamists.

Peter J. Brown [00:07:09] There was an attempt, I think, to normalize that. So there's kind of this PR angle. I think, that they were playing to be involved with the Boy Scouts of America. I think there was genuine interest as well. But if you look at the bsa, if you look at Prohibition, if you look at the different kind of angles the church was playing back in 1910, I think there was a real interest in trying to find an institution in America that they could identify with that I think felt right for their values. I mean, I'm speaking just from a historical standpoint. No one's alive that can tell us from then.

Peter J. Brown [00:07:50] But just from what I've read in history, that seems to be what I see as to why they joined the BSA in 1910. And I think people have to remember that. I mean, this was a major. This organization was pushed by Theodore Roosevelt. It was meant to be kind of almost an early 20th century progressive way to train kids and make them patriotic. And that was a big reason why the BSA was founded.

Peter J. Brown [00:08:23] I mean, there's these values and there's the camping and there's those other aspects of it that I think people see today. But you can't ignore the fact that in 1910 there was this confluence of a desire to kind of bring children into the American value system in a very progressive way at the time.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] What made it progressive at the time? Because certainly many people who think about the Boy Scouts now don't think of it as progressive. Do you have any way to describe how Boy Scout values were progressive at the time?

Peter J. Brown [00:09:00] Well, I'm using the term early 20th century progressive. And so it's a little bit different than what people would probably think. I think progressive nowadays. I think it has. When you think about Teddy Roosevelt, who would stylize himself as a progressive more, I would say a more central push for values instruction all the way down to the fundamental bedrock of society. And if you think about it, prohibition was considered at the time a progressive approach to creating this moral and virtuous citizenry. And that was, at least from my historical understanding, I think the approach. And that's why the bsa, One of the reasons why the bsa, I think, owns that term, at least from a historical standpoint.

John Dehlin [00:09:54] So I'm reading here the Progressive era Progressivism is the term applied to a variety of responses to the economic and social problems. Rapid industrialization introduced to America.

Peter J. Brown [00:10:06] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:10:07] Progressivism began as a social movement and grew into a political movement. The early progressives rejected Social Darwinism. And then I'm also reading that the Progressive Party of 1912 was an American third party formed by Teddy Roosevelt after he lost the nomination of the Republican Party to William Howard Taft. Okay, so progressivism as a response to heavy industrialization. I can kind of understand that.

Peter J. Brown [00:10:38] Yeah, yeah. And there was just a huge over. If you think about all of the social upheavals that happened at the turn of the century, it was.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] It was a response to poverty and illiteracy and urbanization. I could definitely understand that. If everybody's. If a bunch of people are living in cities, their parents are working for factories, kids aren't getting the education or the support they need. They're not out in nature. That Boy Scouts would allow urban kids to sort of reconnect with nature since they left the rural countryside. Correct. I'm making that up. I'm making that up.

Peter J. Brown [00:11:17] No, it's. It's part of what they did. And it was nationally chartered. It was nationally chartered by the Congress. People don't realize that to be the Character Development Organization for the United States of America in 1910, it kind of

John Dehlin [00:11:34] shaped the values of the young generation

Peter J. Brown [00:11:36] in a very kind of centralized American way. Whereas, you know, if you go back 20, 30 years, you know, each state kind of had their own flavor. This was an attempt to Americanize the entire nation. This was one of the things we're trying to use, in my opinion.

John Dehlin [00:11:51] Okay, all right. So the church got involved pretty early on. Correct.

Peter J. Brown [00:11:58] So in 1910, the church got involved. And they, they obviously wanted it to be for their boys. There was an early attempt to also have girls be involved with the Scouting movement. What people don't. I think what I want people to understand is if you look at the scouting movement, it started off actually as a non gendered movement. And in the early 20th century, was

John Dehlin [00:12:24] it called Boy Scouts then or just Scouting? You don't know. It doesn't matter.

Peter J. Brown [00:12:28] It was just kind of flexible and it was a worldwide, it was a worldwide phenomenon. And other countries, they would kind of form themselves differently. In the United States of America, you had the Boy Scouts that kind of took the ideas. These came out, by the way. They came out of England. I should have probably mentioned that the ideas of Scouting came from a man named Baden Powell who was in England. And so the British took it a certain way, the Americans took it a certain way. In the United States of America, you have the National Boy Scouts of America, which, which coalesced around boys, and they have the Girl Scouts of America, which coalesced around girls.

Peter J. Brown [00:13:08] Although, like I said, there were early attempts by the, by the Boy Scouts to incorporate girls. And, and also I believe in the 20s, the church, I think, briefly flirted with some, some scouting ideas for the girls as well. And they called it something and I can't remember.

John Dehlin [00:13:28] No, that's okay. Okay.

Peter J. Brown [00:13:29] We should have researched that better.

John Dehlin [00:13:30] No, that's fine. So as the church gets involved, is there anything that's important about the history prior to the most recent sort of discussions around LGBT and gender? Anything else about the history that you think our audience would need to know before we go to contemporary stuff?

Peter J. Brown [00:13:49] Well, just that. I mean, let's, let's take you up to the 1960s. In the 1960s, one in every four boys in America was a member of the Boy Scouts of America.

John Dehlin [00:13:56] So 25% was that.

Peter J. Brown [00:13:58] 25% of the country. That was a peak of the Boy Scouts. And, and since then there's been basically decline in membership since the 70s pretty steadily. And, and you know, back then it had become associated with traditional values. Religious.

Peter J. Brown [00:14:18] Religious values. Another thing to help, I think the watchers understand is the Boy Scouts of America. Chartered. It's a chartered organization. So like McDonald's, it franchises out its services or its programs, its. Its ideals to other organizations. And so again, that's why the LDS Church picked it up, because they say, hey, we'll just take this program and we'll run with it and make it our own. The Methodists, the Catholics, civic organizations like the Elks Club, the Kiwanis could do the same thing and they could take the Boy Scout program and they can basically mold it in their own. Whereas the Girl Scouts is more like Walmart.

Peter J. Brown [00:14:59] It is controlled from the corporation all the way down. They own all of their units. And so I think it's helped people to understand kind of the difference. And I think that's why you look at the Girl Scouts and the Boy Scouts and how their values kind of are a little bit different. Girl Scouts is seen as a more liberal, progressive organization, whereas the Boy Scouts more conservative. Why? Well, because most the charter partners and the Boy Scouts are churches. And so they're going to reflect the values of the churches that are involved in the. In the Boy Scouts of America.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] So is it fair to say that since churches tend to hold on to more conservative values, family, you know, family values, cisgendered, you know, middle class, sort of white, straight, religious, Christian values, that that's why religions are going to be kind of attracted to Boy Scouts and vice versa. Yeah.

Peter J. Brown [00:15:58] If you go back to the 60s, the funny thing about the. If you go back that far, the Boy Scouts wasn't really seen as a political movement in terms of social values. It was seen more of. More as an educational movement. And from what, again, this is my understanding is that that really started to shift in the 70s and 80s as I think there was an attempt by the BSA to have more solidarity with their chartered partners. And of course, then you have issues by this time of problems of individuals who were molesting kids. And that's starting to come forth.

Sexual Abuse Scandals and Reputational Damage

John Dehlin [00:16:39] And let's talk about that really briefly. That is one of the main hits to the Boy Scouts reputation is that it's been a haven for child sexual abuse. Can you talk about that history briefly and whether that reputation is fairly earned, unfairly earned?

Peter J. Brown [00:16:56] I think that. I think that. I think it's. For my opinion, it's mostly unfairly earned. There's this term that goes around the media called the perversion files. What that really was, was there were individuals who would,

John Dehlin [00:17:14] for lack of a

Peter J. Brown [00:17:15] better term, be attracted to organizations like the Boy Scouts because it was easy prey. You can go into an organization like this, you're in the mountains, you're camping, you have an opportunity to isolate a young man and you could perpetrate on him. And back then there just weren't the standards in the.

Peter J. Brown [00:17:34] And the controls that we have in place today. And then when somebody would get, quote, unquote, caught, they'd move on. But what would happen is they keep a file on this guy so that if somebody moved in, they could contact the national office. And those files were an attempt to kind of keep tabs on some of these people, to make sure that they weren't kind of continuing and doing what they should, what they basically shouldn't be doing. But I think some of the criticisms, and I think there's some. There's some truth to that, was that not enough was done, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:18:11] Not enough was done. Maybe soon enough.

Peter J. Brown [00:18:13] Right. Or some of these people might have been in more powerful positions and they were protected.

John Dehlin [00:18:21] Kind of like the Catholic Church. Right.

Peter J. Brown [00:18:23] Let's keep tabs on them and let's kind of make sure that they're not. They're not causing too much trouble. But that all began to shift in the 80s and 90s, and they started to implement things such as a too deep leadership, youth protection.

Peter J. Brown [00:18:38] Those things started to come into play. Nowadays, for example, you have to take youth protection training program every year now they just changed that. And the Boy Scouts of America actually teaches young men that, or they basically teach young men about grooming.

Peter J. Brown [00:18:59] We actually have courses that teach them how to recognize signs of an adult trying to groom them, which is very uncomfortable to do, but I think it's actually helped. Since I've been in the profession, I know that those kinds of cases have markedly dropped off, but we're still having problems with cases from the 60s and 70s and 80s. People, they're now grown up people that have aged out of the program and they are recovering memories and they're going, hey, wait a minute, I was molested as a kid. And so the Catholic Church, when it went through its issue a decade ago, a lot of statute of limitation laws were opened up, and the lawyers have kind of moved through those particular, you know, moved to the Catholic Church.

Peter J. Brown [00:19:45] And now they're going, oh, well, we have another clientele to go to go look at. And so they've looked at the Boy Scouts as an area where, you know, I don't want to minimize the victim's pain. Obviously, we need to do whatever we can do to kind of mitigate that pain. But it has opened up an area of lawsuit trouble for the bsa.

Peter J. Brown [00:20:09] And I would say that's probably the biggest. The biggest challenge to it financially are these. These lawsuits that are taking place that are decades old, that have no statute of limitations on them.

John Dehlin [00:20:21] Okay, so there is. There is a history of sort of some sexual abuse in the Boy Scouts. It's because people sought out the Boy Scouts as a way to have connection with Kids, maybe in some instances the Boy Scouts took too long or didn't do enough, but by the 80s you're saying they, they really took it seriously and now you feel like they offer strong and adequate protections. But, but the Boy Scouts continues to be plagued with lawsuits for multi multiple.

Peter J. Brown [00:20:59] By the way, I tell people all the time that I'm more comfortable with my kid going on a scouting activity with trained adult leaders that know have been trained in this stuff than I do sending them on a church activity where there is no requirement.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] So you're saying Boy Scouts is safer than maybe the average, maybe LDS church ward? I know, I don't want to get you in trouble. Average church congregation experience.

Peter J. Brown [00:21:25] That's my feeling. But we also had some data that showed the LDS units were more likely to have say an accident or an injury or a death than say a non LDS or traditional unit that maybe had more training. And I don't, you know, we.

John Dehlin [00:21:48] Oh, you're saying Boy Scout troops that are LDS affiliated maybe in some instances have had higher prevalence of abuse than non LDS affiliated.

Peter J. Brown [00:21:59] No, no, no. I'm just saying it. We have statistics that show that overall we're talking about like general challenges with like accidents, injuries, safety concerns. I mean I'm kind of all rolling that into one. In my opinion. I think they tend to be more lax just because religious affiliated troops. Right. I think, I think part of the problem with that is that people feel like, well, you know, this guy was called, he was ordained, he's not going to be a problem. I think some people have that misconception. I don't think the church feels that way, but I think that once you get down to the lower levels that sometimes people kind of have that they're overly too trusting in my opinion.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] Okay. And that's what I was going to ask is you find out once you sort of pay attention to the world outside of Mormonism that there's kind of this reputation that a non LDS Boy Scout troop is one thing and it's sort of a higher grade of a Boy Scout experience. And then the average LDS ward scouting experience troop is maybe not as, not as hardcore or not as sophisticated or not as well run because like you said, it's his default. People get called into it. There isn't necessarily this inherent passion to do scouting, but instead everyone's parents are making them go. The leaders are called to it whether they want to do it or not. And so maybe that people don't take it as seriously. Maybe people don't take the rules as Seriously, is there any fairness to that reputation or is that what you're saying or not?

Peter J. Brown [00:23:42] I don't have a problem saying. That's our observation. You know, I think that's there. And they're in an incredibly difficult situation because every boy is supposed to be a Boy Scout, and that's the rule. And. And so, you know, every unit in the United States of America is chartered with the bsa. And so Bishop goes, man, I got to find a Scoutmaster. And so a lot of times, you know, he just does the best of what he. What he's got, you know, as far as putting somebody in charge of these kids. And whereas if you go outside of the organ, the LDS Church, you know, you got people that generally volunteer to do these things, and it's just a little bit of. Just a different flavor of how it's. How it's used. And I see that difference.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] Tim writes, I have been involved at high levels in Boy Scouts of America efforts to make Scouting safe from child abuse. And the church will be leaving behind BSA's youth protection. The church program for older boys will also not have access to fundraising efforts through bsa. And the church may have less resources external to the church when they withdraw from venturing. So less money and resources will likely mean less robust activities. So that's Tim's jumping ahead, because we're going to be talking about the church's new program in a second, but he's basically making the point that, you know, if we tie it to what we're talking about now, that the church may even be less safe in terms of child abuse if it distances itself more from the Boy Scouts. Does that make any sense to you?

Peter J. Brown [00:25:19] Well, I would think that if they did that, they would need to come up with an adequate youth protection program that's similar to the bsa. But again, that goes back to one of the arguments that I have with people all the time is, in fact, this wasn't made by me. This argument was made by Charles Dahlquist, who was used to be the general young men's president for the LDS Church back in the 2000s. He's now the national commissioner for the BSA. And his whole argument was, you know, the church's mission is to preach the gospel,

John Dehlin [00:25:58] redeem the dead and freedom. The dead and perfect estates, perfect.

Peter J. Brown [00:26:02] Sorry, man, you know better than I do. And he says, we have a lot of talent, time, energy, you know, pushed into that. He said, you've got a hundred years of developing programs, training, insurance issues, safety stuff. He goes, why don't we just, you know, purchase those services from the BSA instead of having to develop them all on our own? And that was basically his argument. Although, you know, a counter argument could, could be that, you know, the boy, the church has way more resources in terms of money to develop whatever they want to develop.

Peter J. Brown [00:26:39] You know, none of us really know what the church, the church's annual budget is, but, you know, the national BSA's budget is dwarfs in comparison to what the church probably gets annually with, you know, the different revenue streams that it has.

Peter J. Brown [00:26:54] And so I think a lot of people think that they see the church is growing, it's successful, it's, it's, you know, building temples, churches, chapels, growing. It has the resources, it can, whatever programs it's going to develop are going to be far and above better than what the Boy Scouts have developed. My contention to that is, well, you still have to have warm bodies. They're going to be that are willing to go through the training and take the time and the effort to help these young people. So all the money in the world you throw at, it's not gonna, not gonna help that.

LGBT Inclusion Policies in Scouting

John Dehlin [00:27:27] Okay, let me ask you this. What are some of the, so the, you know, in some circles, people kind of view the Boy Scouts as kind of really conservative now as not being favorable to, you know, people who don't believe in God or in Christ anymore. Not being very favorable to, not being very feminist, friendly, let's say, and not being very good to LGBT people. Can you talk or to LGBT youth or friendly for LGBT youth? Can you talk a little bit about the Boy Scouts sort of history with, we'll just say gays, feminist intellectuals, to keep it brief.

Peter J. Brown [00:28:12] I don't know if you've ever had a problem with intellectuals, but atheists and agnostics.

John Dehlin [00:28:17] I was joking.

Peter J. Brown [00:28:19] You know,

John Dehlin [00:28:21] what is their historical policies been in those regards?

Peter J. Brown [00:28:24] Well, the funny thing is, is that when the Boy scouts formed in 1910 and then they have, you know, the Scout oath and law, one of the things people point to is that a Boy Scout is morally straight. I point out that morally straight didn't mean heterosexual in 1910.

John Dehlin [00:28:40] Right. It just went straight, just meant just morally clean, correct from a Mormon standpoint.

Peter J. Brown [00:28:47] And somehow that got co opted. And I think there was a point in time, in I believe the 70s, when the boy Scouts basically took a stand. And I think again, I think they did it. I'm sorry, my date might be wrong, but they took a stand somewhere in the last four decades where they created a kind of a Policy at where they said, we're not going to allow known or more. I think it was known or avowed homosexuals was the policy for the Boy Scouts of America.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] Leadership and kids. Right.

Peter J. Brown [00:29:28] Leadership and kids. Before that, there was no policy. If they had never enacted the policies, they probably could have much more easily just let it kind of fade off. But they enacted it then. People saw that as well. That's a stand. That that's what it means to be a Boy Scout.

Peter J. Brown [00:29:45] And. And I think the last, you know, 10 years or decade and a half or so, the Boy Scouts, I think there's. There. It's porn. I mean, the Boy Scouts is all over the nation. So if you're in. If you're in California or New York or Boston, your organizations are going to be more liberal. They're going to see things more open to, you know, have more diversity in that respect. And if you're in the Mountain west or the.

Peter J. Brown [00:30:16] In my opinion, particularly the south, you're going to see, you know, Boy Scouts are going to be chartered by Baptists and Mormons who see the Boy Scouts as kind of an appendage to Christianity. And you. You have that tension happening. And it happened over the past couple of decades. And there's even some councils that kind of went rogue and were kind of doing their own thing. And I think they were attempting to try to come to a resolution.

Peter J. Brown [00:30:47] And that's why 2012 is when they came out with that ruling, that they looked at it from the standpoint of we shouldn't be discriminating against the youth. And we're gonna. And people said, I'll slip pre sold. And then we're gonna do it. We're gonna. And a lot of people are seeing,

John Dehlin [00:31:07] like, for example, Peter, just one second. Your voice is coming really choppy. I don't know if you've opened some windows or if you need to turn off your video. I just want to make sure we don't miss what you're saying, because it's really important. If you want to turn off your video and talk, go ahead.

Peter J. Brown [00:31:21] Yeah, let's do that. So I was just gonna. So I don't know where. Join you back up and just say that. I think, in my opinion, I think the Boy Scouts kind of got. Roped into kind of setting up this standard where they weren't going to let homosexuals in. And I'm not sure that a lot of people in the organization.

Peter J. Brown [00:31:46] There's difference of opinion, especially the last couple of decades, and there have been attempts to try to Resolve that without offending chartered partners. And you've kind of seen them chop at that piecemeal with. Beginning in 2012, when they let all boys.

Peter J. Brown [00:32:03] If you're a gay boy, you could be in the Boy Scouts of America. And we actually had a fairly positive response to that. And I was at the time in the Utah National Parks Council. From the point of view of, you know, these are youth, we shouldn't be discriminating against youth. And I think I saw. I felt there was a pretty positive vibe for that within the organization, even down there.

John Dehlin [00:32:29] Now, did that allow the local troops to decide? In other words, did the church have a loophole where they didn't have to abide by that policy?

Peter J. Brown [00:32:40] Well, see, that's the thing. The church never did abide by that policy, because the church's policy was every boy is registered as a Boy Scout. So the church didn't really go by that. That rule in particular. And, you know, in my experience, because I, you know, I've been a camp. I was a camp director for 15 years. I knew kids that were gay that went to Boy Scout camp. And nobody made any attempts to kick them out. They just went along. And most of my experience with that was dealing with bullying more than anything else. These kids getting bullies, these kids getting bullied by their peers. I never saw them as a threat. For example, at Boy Scout camp, like some people would complain.

John Dehlin [00:33:29] What I'm asking is, as the Boy Scouts has changed their policy to be more accommodating to gay young men and to gay leaders, as the Boy Scouts have adopted those policies, has the church followed suit or not?

Peter J. Brown [00:33:46] Well, that's what I was trying to say. I think in the first instance, they were fine with it because they never had a policy of excluding gay boys. And the Boy Scouts, it seemed to kind of not be that big of a deal with the LDS Church at the time. In fact, my understanding is that they had a. Probably a more progressive approach to it than the bsa, but it was probably

John Dehlin [00:34:06] a don't ask, don't tell, right?

Peter J. Brown [00:34:08] In a way. But. But because they never had an active policy denying homosexuals.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] Right, right, right.

Peter J. Brown [00:34:15] And every boy was ordained a deacon and every boy was in the Scouts. It made it more easy for them to kind of say, hey, we'd never, you know, excluded boys in this particular way. But then when the leader. When the leader. That, in my opinion, the. The PR on that was a little bit f. You remember, you know, when it came out. It came out in the middle of summertime when the general authorities were on vacation and there was that initial response of kind of annoyance maybe, or like, we're not really happy that Boy Scouts are doing this. And they came back a few months later and said, we're going to continue working with the Boy Scouts of America. But you could tell it was going to be a little more of a distance.

John Dehlin [00:34:57] So in other words, even though the church's policy maybe in effect was a little bit more progressive, as soon as it was made explicit, the church got bugged and started planning its exit.

Peter J. Brown [00:35:11] Well, I think with the leaders, I think that's the, from my opinion, that's where I kind of seen the shift take place, was the leaders. I think there's a real sense that while it might be okay to have a gay kid in the Boy Scouts, it might be. It's more difficult. Right. When they're adult leader because now you get all these issues of are they going to perpetrate on a kid? And these people have misjudgments about, about that and they believe that being a pedophile and being homosexual go hand in hand. And, and there's a lot of that belief out there.

John Dehlin [00:35:46] And is that your, is that your understanding of the evidence? I'm going to speak to that, but I want to know what your. Is there any connection? Do gay men have a higher prevalence of child abuse than straight men in your understanding?

Peter J. Brown [00:36:05] No, and I think the Boy Scouts research showed that too.

John Dehlin [00:36:09] That's my understanding that actually heterosexual men have higher rates of abuse on both boys and girls than gay men. And so that's not, that's not legitimate. And also.

Peter J. Brown [00:36:23] Well, I just going to say at the, like, at the older youth levels, I've had some anecdotal experience where, you know, say you've had a leader who is maybe in the closet and they end up having a romance with a 17, 16, 17 year old. And then later that individual comes out of the closet and they say that they're gay. But, but so I, you know, I think it's not quite as cut and dried as that. But, but, but when the Boy Scouts, I think did their, did the, looked at all the evidence, they said that this is, you know, we don't need to be concerned about this because we have just as many problems on one side as the other. Let's worry about the abuse and not worry about someone's sexual orientation. And, and I think that was when that was triggered.

John Dehlin [00:37:17] Got it. Yeah. And there's also, for people who aren't aware, probably this idea that gay leaders produce gay boys. And we very much know from the evidence that being gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender is a biological, is primarily or even completely a biological phenomenon. It's not one that sort of someone gets, you know, that some disease that can sort of be infected, if that makes any sense. It's something that's determined long before a kid enters Boy Scouts.

Peter J. Brown [00:37:54] Right. Well, and the thing is, what I've always advocated, even, you know, for me personally, I said I think we ought to go with a behavior standard that we don't approve of this kind of behavior at Scout camp. And, and you know, that Scouts isn't a place for people to. To either express or to act out on or to explore their sexuality. Not the right environment, not the right location for that. And if we just focused on, you know, trying to deal with the behavior instead of worrying about someone's, like, identity, I think that we'd be in a better situation. And that's kind of how I've always felt. I think we're there now on that angle, at least.

The LDS Church's Shifting Relationship with Scouting

John Dehlin [00:38:39] So what, so what tell us what's happened to the church's relationship with, for those who aren't reading in the news, what has happened to the church's relationship with the Boy Scouts over the past few years?

Peter J. Brown [00:38:53] Well, so we'll go back to that. 2014, I think that's where, that's where I think the low was is 2014, when the LDS Church responded to the allowance of gay leaders into the Boy Scouts because they just. I don't think they were really involved. They just kind of hit them a broadside a little bit.

Peter J. Brown [00:39:16] I think since then, the relationship has been repaired quite a bit, and things don't necessarily happen without a lot of input from the church. But I think that. I think the. I think a lot of people feel that the church is looking to find an exit strategy.

Peter J. Brown [00:39:33] There's another opinion out there that, and that the, that the church is trying to develop or is hoping to develop, or the Boy Scouts is hoping to work with the church to develop a boy and girl program that they can use for all their youth in America and abroad. And I know there's been some, some discussions on that angle. So I'm not sure there's. I'm not sure the exit strategy is the only, the only angle they're looking at. I think there's a couple other.

Peter J. Brown [00:40:07] And one of the challenges I think that people need to understand is that there's a very deep relationship with the Boy Scouts of America and the LDS Church and the Benefit. There's a lot of benefits to the church from that relationship in terms of conversions, in terms of relationships with people who aren't of the LDS faith. It's a way for them to break down stereotypes. And it's worked very, very well. And if they were to drop the Boy Scouts, they would give up some of those benefits.

John Dehlin [00:40:38] So what has the church formally changed so far in its relationship with the Boy Scouts?

Peter J. Brown [00:40:43] The only thing that. Well,

John Dehlin [00:40:47] there was the announcement several earlier this year.

Peter J. Brown [00:40:50] So it's kind of confusing because on one hand a few years ago, the financial angle, and I don't know if people really understand this, but I'm going to educate them because things important people to understand is that the Boy Scouts of America is funded on membership fees. Membership fees. And it used to be that a member, say you're a Mormon and your kids and Boy Scouts, you paid the membership fee. Well, I want to say maybe 15 years ago, maybe 20, the church started to pay for those membership fees out of tithing funds. And they used to invoice each stake for that. And now they have a direct, what do you call it? Have a direct invoicing with the national bsa. That's a lump sum, I believe. And no one really knows what that is. But from a financial standpoint, I think that's a better relationship than what they used to have.

John Dehlin [00:41:54] So the church gets some sort of discount, maybe by paying in bulk. Yeah.

Peter J. Brown [00:42:00] And, but people, you know what people need to take away from that is that that is paid with tithing dollars. Tithing dollars pay for the membership. Boys that not only are LDS youth, but say you're a non LDS youth that's going to a church unit, they pay for those fees as well.

John Dehlin [00:42:16] What, what is the Friends of Scouting program? When people pay money to that, what is that?

Peter J. Brown [00:42:22] That funds local council operations. So, so each councils its own corporation. There's three councils in Utah, for example. I'm in one of southern southeastern Idaho. The money that people, when someone comes to door and says, I'm we're doing friends with Scouting, would you like to contribute? It goes to that local council to help fund its programs and operations.

John Dehlin [00:42:46] And why do they need, why do they need money if the corporate office has money?

Peter J. Brown [00:42:51] Because each, because again, the Boy Scouts is a franchise operation. So there's the national corporate office in Dallas, Texas, which is the umbrella organization which provides all the programs. You have 300 local councils that franchise that and run local programs and local, local states and municipalities who then in turn charter that to private institutions like Churches. It's kind of convoluted.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] Got it, got it. Well, one of the things that I remember reading is that some of those bureaucratic positions, people make a couple hundred thousand dollars a year or more. And I've heard that they're kind of these plum almost patronage like jobs where people are kind of living high on the hog. Now, is there truth to that? Is there not truth to that?

Peter J. Brown [00:43:43] Well, so each council has a CEO, a scout executive, and they usually get paid pretty well.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] Couple hundred thousand a year, right?

Peter J. Brown [00:43:50] Well, I don't think that's the case anymore. At least in the Mountain West. I think that's more like 150 or 160.

John Dehlin [00:43:56] Okay.

Peter J. Brown [00:43:57] It's, it's, I would say fairly commensurate with a nonprofit agency executive director in a large agency. But once you get out of that level and once you're in an employment position like mine, for example, I'm a cfo, but I make probably half as what I'd make in the private sector. And so, you know, once you get out of that level, the salaries are pretty. It's a nonprofit salary.

John Dehlin [00:44:23] Who would pick the CEO of a council?

Peter J. Brown [00:44:26] Local board members.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] So how does the church keep control of the councils?

Peter J. Brown [00:44:32] Well, they've got church members that are on boards. For example, in Utah National Parks Council, where I came from, there was, I believe a member of the general young men's presidency that was on the executive board. And, and, and so there's an ability there to influence who gets picked, but it's not foolproof. I've seen Scout councils in Utah go one or two different directions. Sometimes they want more diversity. And so they want a non LDS Scout leader or scout executive who comes from back east. And then the next time around they want somebody who is an insider who speaks the Brethren language really well. So I've seen it go both ways.

John Dehlin [00:45:20] Okay. As the. So we've heard recently about this program where the church is gonna not do scouting past what age 14? Is that what they've said?

Peter J. Brown [00:45:31] So, yeah, and I'll help clarify that too. In the 1970s and then the 19 think it was 1999 and the boy Scout or the church was looking at the Boy Scout program and going, this isn't working for our older youth. And so what they did was they, they helped pilot these programs, the Varsity Scout program and the Venturing program for their older youth. Plus they also want a quorum integrity. They wanted the Boy Scout separate from, they wanted the 12 year old separate from the 14 year old separate from the 16 year old, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:46:08] Yeah, Deacon, teacher, priest.

Peter J. Brown [00:46:10] Yeah, they wanted that quorum integrity. So they helped pilot these programs and just frankly never worked. In my professional career, I've made in urban and suburban areas of the wasatch front, maybe 5 to 10% of LDS units worked at those older boy levels.

Peter J. Brown [00:46:33] Most of them didn't. And most of them just saw Scouting as getting an Eagle and that's it. And I think the church just kind of addresses that and goes, well, we tried, but it never worked. We're not going to keep putting our resources and eggs into this basket, training our people to do this stuff, use these kind of extra kind of high adventure programs that nobody really understands or are willing to get trained to do. So we're just going to back off this. And frankly, we've got to develop a worldwide program. And so we'll start with our older teens and we'll roll them in.

Peter J. Brown [00:47:13] But I want to be clear, older boys aren't dropped from the Boy Scout roles. They still remain Boy Scouts because there's an investment from parents, church leaders and boys getting their Eagle Scout, which most boys don't do until they're 16, 17.

John Dehlin [00:47:33] But, but the church did make it an announcement that it's. That it's ending the relationship, didn't they? After 14 years old or something like that?

Peter J. Brown [00:47:42] No, they're ending there. They're ending those programs Varsity Scout and Venturing, but they've already taken measures to roll all of those boys onto the rolls of the Boy Scout troops.

John Dehlin [00:47:53] Okay, so, so the show 14 to 18 year or 17 year old boys will still remain Boy Scouts within Mormonism. They just aren't doing the, the middle and the higher tier.

Peter J. Brown [00:48:04] Right? Correct.

John Dehlin [00:48:05] Okay.

Peter J. Brown [00:48:05] Now there is a caveat to that, and that is before you just were registered by virtue of being a Latter Day Saint and you had no choice. Now a parent who says I'm done with this, they can take them off the rolls, but it doesn't really change the financial relationship. Then that doesn't change at all. It's just a matter of I don't want my boy to be a Boy Scout anymore.

John Dehlin [00:48:28] So does that announcement hurt the Boy Scouts at all? The one that the church made previously, which one to stop with the mid and the high tier programs?

Peter J. Brown [00:48:38] Well, I think mostly just that the perception like that you had that they're stopping these programs and the boy after 14, there's no boy Scout program for the, for the Boy Scouts. These kids are still, some, A lot of these kids are still gonna get Eagles, they're still gonna want to go on Scout camps. They're still gonna be involved to some extent or another. I mean, just an example the other day was, was a kid who's not normally involved in scouting. Now he. He gets invited to go on a campout or do a service project.

Peter J. Brown [00:49:10] If he goes and gets involved and say, gets into an accident, for example, now we have some liability issues. One of the big reasons the church uses the Boy Scouts is it's a big insurance program. I don't think people realize that it provides liability insurance for accidents and injuries. And even though church does have its own insurance program, you take one of those, now you have one of those tiers that you've just taken away.

Peter J. Brown [00:49:40] And so that's kind of one of the. What explainers as to why you probably should keep them in. Unless you're adamant they're never going to be involved again or they're never going to get their Eagle. Go ahead and drop them off, mom and dad.

John Dehlin [00:49:53] Got it. Yeah. Quick question is, is there any truth to the idea that a Mormon troop, it's easier to get an Eagle Scout in a Mormon troop than in a non Mormon troop? Any truth to that?

Peter J. Brown [00:50:07] I think so. I just think that. I think that comes from the fact that I think a lot of people see the, you know, as part of your. The steps of salvation. You get your priesthood, you get your Eagle, you go on a mission, you marry the temple, and they get so focused on checking the box that they forget that, hey, in the process of, like, earning this, you're supposed to develop something good out of it, and you're supposed to be doing hard things and developing character and interacting with adults that are hard for you to interact with. And that gets shortchanged sometimes, I think just because of that mentality.

John Dehlin [00:50:48] How much does the LDS Church just control the Boy Scouts overall? Like, let's just say there was a pie chart of influence and a decision is going to be evaluated and made. What percent influence do you think the Mormon Church just has overall on the. On the Boy Scouts of America? Well, is it pretty much the church controls the BSA or is it not that simple?

Peter J. Brown [00:51:13] Nationally, the LDS Church represents about 17% of all the boys in the BSA. So I would say yeah, there's a sizable influence, but probably not to the extent that people on the Wasatch front think that there is. But then once you get into the Wasatch front, local councils and stuff, there's definitely a sizable influence. What do you call it? Sizable influence from church Yeah, I think. I think there is. Just because, you know, 90% plus are chartered by the LDS Church here in the Mountain West. And so there's a lot. There's a lot more, I think, influence that can be imposed on the three

John Dehlin [00:51:56] councils that are in Utah.

Peter J. Brown [00:51:57] Yeah. And we. And just people understand if we want to get anything done, if we want people to. You know, if I walk in, for example, to a bishop, and I'm trying to get a bishop to do scouting, for example, he doesn't listen to me. I'm just. I'm mud. I'm not. I'm not in his congregation. In fact, a lot of them don't know how to deal with that because not inside of their authority structure. And so we, you know, we have to learn to work with the lines of authority and work with LDS relations, and we work together to try to build a consensus so that when we make a policy that there's some consensus from the top down. It's a lot easier if you give a general authority or an Area 70 that's on board and they tell a stake president or bishop what to do. It works a lot better than me.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] Okay, got it. That makes sense. So what is the Boy Scout of America's policy today with LGBT leaders and LGBT youth?

Peter J. Brown [00:53:07] So the BSA's policy is that they're allowed to be in. You can be in the Boy Scouts of America. There is one caveat, and that is

John Dehlin [00:53:20] as leaders or youth, you're saying.

Peter J. Brown [00:53:22] Right. And that is that it's subject to the standards of the chartered organization. So if the chartered organization has a religious. You know, as a religious belief, they, like the LDS Church, probably won't allow gay leaders because that's not their. They'll let gay boys, but they won't let gay leaders because that's their religious.

John Dehlin [00:53:50] It's kind of like the states rights argument. Like when they were trying to abolish slavery, people were saying, we'll let the states decide. And states get outlawed or not. It's basically local councils get to decide if they want to discriminate or not, Right?

Peter J. Brown [00:54:03] No. I mean, yeah, not even local councils. The councils have to allow. We have to find a place for an LGBT youth or a transgendered youth. That's our. That's what we must do. But we have. We have many chartered partners and organizations. If you are a civic, say you're Elks Club or you're. You are sub.

John Dehlin [00:54:22] You have.

Peter J. Brown [00:54:23] You cannot discriminate. You have to allow these kids in. We find a place for these kids. But Essentially, if you're a religious organization, you get to use the religious exemption to. To say no.

John Dehlin [00:54:37] And is there an organization at headquarters that helps these kids find another troop if they're. If the religious troop doesn't want them?

Peter J. Brown [00:54:44] Yeah, we. We have basically a designated person on staff that finds a place for these kids to be.

John Dehlin [00:54:55] That's a corporate headquarters.

Peter J. Brown [00:54:57] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:54:57] Okay.

Peter J. Brown [00:54:58] Like in local council headquarters, we have. We have someone that's supposed to find a place for these kids to be.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] So I imagine that there's. There was some conversation or ongoing conversation. That's a group of people in the BSA that are like, nope, we need to let lgbt. We need to make LGBT inclusion a policy BSA wide. And then there's others saying, oh, no, we don't want to lose the Mormon Church or other groups. And so, no, we need to let it be a local decision. Is that the type of dynamics that have been going on for the past however many years?

Peter J. Brown [00:55:32] I think so. I think that's where you see the kind of the split that you see there is a policy, but let's defer it to the. Again, it's a chartered organization. They get to own it. Let them take the responsibility for who they get to be.

John Dehlin [00:55:50] And the cost of that is the reputation of the BSA as potentially being discriminatory.

Peter J. Brown [00:55:56] Yeah, I think for some. For some people, that just doesn't wash. Right. On the progressive side that they want to see, you know, something enacted that's broad and, you know, personally, I like it. I think it's a great compromise. And, you know, if you don't like that a religious organization discriminates, work within that organization, change its hearts and minds. Or I guess if the law decides that they can't discriminate, then. And makes. It. Makes. Makes religions do it, then. Then, you know,

John Dehlin [00:56:37] I guess in theory, if a troop is not LGBT friendly, you wouldn't want your kid in it. I guess that's fair to say.

Peter J. Brown [00:56:44] Yeah. I mean. Yeah. And I do know that there are LGBT friendly troops. I know down in Salt Lake Logan

John Dehlin [00:56:54] has one valley called Troop One. Yeah.

Peter J. Brown [00:56:58] Yeah. And I'm just unsure about our local area here, but I know that down there they do.

John Dehlin [00:57:03] You're in Idaho. You're in Idaho.

Peter J. Brown [00:57:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] And so that's the big. That's the big thing. Because, like. So let's. Let's quickly talk about the policy that was announced a couple days ago. Can you tell us about that policy?

Transgender Youth, Girls, and the Program's Future

Peter J. Brown [00:57:15] So this is unlike the other two policies, which are. When we talked about with the change with transgendered.

John Dehlin [00:57:22] And just. It's. I think it's transgender individuals.

Peter J. Brown [00:57:26] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:57:26] No, it's okay. Transgender youth. Yeah.

Peter J. Brown [00:57:29] And I'm gonna clear that up. It's only transgender girls who want to be boys at this point in time.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] So trans. Trans boys. You would say trans boys. Transgender boys. Yeah.

Peter J. Brown [00:57:41] I'm not sure of the nomenclature, but yeah, trans boys. That was the policy shift, I believe it was a year ago, and I think that was that they are allowed

John Dehlin [00:57:53] right everywhere or just where they're wanted.

Peter J. Brown [00:57:57] It's kind of the same policy as with gay kids. We have to find a place for them. And. But that only affects. Again, it only affects kids at a certain level, certain age level, because that. That. So this is. If you're thinking about a. Again, it makes sense for me to look at it this way. So somebody who was born a girl who identifies as a boy in Cub Scouts. And so once you get into the teenage realm, it was different. And. And do you know how it's different?

John Dehlin [00:58:34] Do you know how it's different?

Peter J. Brown [00:58:36] It doesn't work with Boy Scout age group levels. So 11, 12, 13.

John Dehlin [00:58:41] So a trans boy can be part of Cub Scouts, but not Boy Scouts, Is that what you're saying?

Peter J. Brown [00:58:45] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:58:46] Okay.

Peter J. Brown [00:58:46] At this point, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:47] Okay, got it.

Peter J. Brown [00:58:48] And then the opposites. Not the opposite. The. Obviously, we didn't allow girls at the younger age, so it's. We hadn't been allowing girls at the younger age, and so that wasn't an issue at the younger age. Once you get past 14, you can be in the Boy Scouts if you're a boy or a girl, because you can be in the Venturing program.

John Dehlin [00:59:10] Okay. Is this the new program or not?

Peter J. Brown [00:59:12] No, no. Venturing. Again, go back to. The LDS Church helped the Venturing program form for its quorum, but what happened was it didn't work so much for the LDS Church, but the national organization started to use it as a co ed high adventure program.

John Dehlin [00:59:29] But you couldn't get your Eagle Scout as a girl.

Peter J. Brown [00:59:32] Correct. You couldn't get your Eagle Scout as a girl.

John Dehlin [00:59:34] You can.

Peter J. Brown [00:59:34] You could get Venturing awards, but not.

John Dehlin [00:59:37] Okay, so really quickly, this is a side question, but while we're at it, are there lg. Are there councils or lg, LDS troops that allow LGBT kids just not. Not consistent with other LDS troops and councils? Does that make sense? In other words, is the church. If the church is running a Boy Scout troop in Berkeley or Manhattan, is it possible that they would allow LGBT leaders or youth? Whereas maybe in Utah, they would. Do you Know.

Peter J. Brown [01:00:11] Well, or even Salt Lake or Orem. I mean, yeah, it just depends on. I think just depends on the unit.

John Dehlin [01:00:16] But do you know if LDS affiliated units, if there are LDS affiliated units that have as their policy the allowance of LGBT leaders or youth?

Peter J. Brown [01:00:28] Well, they do allow LGBT youth. They don't allow lgbt.

John Dehlin [01:00:32] None that you're aware of. None that you're aware.

Peter J. Brown [01:00:34] None that I'm aware of.

John Dehlin [01:00:35] Okay, that's good. All right, so the new announcement does what with women or girls?

Peter J. Brown [01:00:42] Well, so I started off by saying that we've had girls in the boy scouts for 20 years. That 14 and older level.

John Dehlin [01:00:48] Right.

Peter J. Brown [01:00:49] And they've been exploring this for the last two or three years. And unlike the other announcements, which kind of came out of nowhere, this one has been discussed and discussed and committeeed. And so it's been. We've seen it coming. They were just working out the logistics of it. And the LDS Church, I believe, was fully aware of the change. Some people have said, well, the board vote was unanimous and therefore Elder Holland voted for it. Well, we don't know if Elder Holland was there, but I've heard people say that any of the Mormon contingent that was there from Salt Lake, if it was unanimous, they voted for it.

Peter J. Brown [01:01:33] And so this was known. It's been planned. I think having it happen yesterday was a little bit of a surprise. And they're gonna. They were hoping it would happen next year at the board meeting, but the impetus for it, and I think there's. There's three different reasons for it.

John Dehlin [01:01:52] What was the change? Just describe the change that.

Peter J. Brown [01:01:54] The change is that beginning in 20, sorry, 2018 program year, girls are going to be allowed in Cub Scouts, and that's ages five, clear up to age 10.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] Okay.

Peter J. Brown [01:02:12] And girls can be in Cub Scouts, although when they join a Cub Scout pack, within a Cub Scout pack, there's dens. Okay. So there's little subgroups. Those groups have to be gender gendered, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:02:30] Okay.

Peter J. Brown [01:02:31] Although I believe in some of they make allowances for some.

John Dehlin [01:02:35] So in Cub Scouts, it's gotta be a girl den or a boy den.

Peter J. Brown [01:02:38] Right.

John Dehlin [01:02:39] Mixed.

Peter J. Brown [01:02:39] I do think that in some instances with some units that the mix is allowed, but that generally speaking, they're advertising that boys are in boy dens, girls are in girl dens.

John Dehlin [01:02:51] Okay. Okay.

Peter J. Brown [01:02:54] In the 2019, they're going to start a new program where girls can be Boy Scouts and get their Eagle.

John Dehlin [01:03:03] Now, why do you think they made this change?

Peter J. Brown [01:03:05] Okay, so that was the thing I was going to talk about. So there's probably three different reasons that I can point to. One is, let's go back to that decline in membership from the 1970s. I just think they're looking for ways to grow. I think there's a financial component to that.

Peter J. Brown [01:03:26] They want to see their membership grow. It's been declining. They. I think there was a hope by some people that once they let homosexual youth and the Boy Scouts that it would stop the bleeding and it would stop the attrition, but that hasn't proved to be the case for the past three or four years.

Peter J. Brown [01:03:47] And so they're like, we need to. We need new markets. We need to find new ways to reach kids. And they've already got girls in the older boy programs. They've been flirting with the idea for years and years and years.

Peter J. Brown [01:03:59] I think one of the biggest reasons they haven't done it is because of. There was a whole Girl Scout of America angle. Girl Scouts already offer girl programs, and, you know, there was a relationship there they didn't want to sour. But I think that's gonna happen now.

John Dehlin [01:04:13] Yeah. That a lot of people are worried that this is gonna hurt the Girl Scouts. Is that possible?

Peter J. Brown [01:04:19] Yes and no. I think it's gonna hurt them some. But there's. Someone argued. There's two different. There's two different. What do you call it, Markets at play here. So one of the things they found out, for example, is in the Boy Scouts, again, they're chartered by churches or charterable organizations. A lot of parents would take their kids to Boy Scouts, and they don't want to just drop their kid off for an hour. They all want to be there together. And especially in Hispanic, Latino, and Asian communities. California, they weren't interested in joining with the Scouts because they wanted a full family program. That's what they're used to in Mexico. They're used to that in other countries. We weren't offering at. They weren't interested. And so there's the sense that now the whole family can go and there's something for everyone to do.

John Dehlin [01:05:10] Okay, so you're acknowledging that the Boy Scouts continues to receive a decline, experience a decline in membership, and that impacts the bottom line. But you're also saying there's some demand from families to just have one program that can meet the needs of all the kids.

Peter J. Brown [01:05:27] And then I think. And then the third one was, there were some lawsuits. There were some girls suing the Boy Scouts to be Boy Scouts. And I think that they're going. They're saying, look, we're already trying to make this happen. Make this work. And I think that kind of helped tip the scales as well, is they just didn't want. They wanted to. They wanted to get rid of these, these lawsuit issues with girls that were suing to be in the Boy Scouts.

John Dehlin [01:05:54] So what does it mean for a girl to be part of something called the Boy Scouts? Will the girl say, I'm a Boy Scout? Will they change the name?

Peter J. Brown [01:06:02] I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:06:04] I mean, I mean, you think they think that through, right? Maybe they thought that through.

Peter J. Brown [01:06:08] I don't know. I mean, there's some people are saying Scouts usa, that really. That just grates on me. Most of the, Most of the existing female clientele that we have that are already. That I work with, that are already. Boy Scouts have no problem calling themselves Boy Scouts. It's just because it's, it's a branded thing more than anything else. And so I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:06:37] Okay, good.

Peter J. Brown [01:06:38] As mine.

John Dehlin [01:06:38] Will. Will women allow. Be allowed to be Boy Scout leaders?

Peter J. Brown [01:06:42] Well, women have always been allowed to be Boy Scout leader.

John Dehlin [01:06:44] Cub Scout leaders.

Peter J. Brown [01:06:46] Well, women have been Cub Scout leaders,

John Dehlin [01:06:48] but not Boy Scout leaders. Right.

Peter J. Brown [01:06:50] And they've. And they've had. We've had women Boy Scout leaders ever since I've.

John Dehlin [01:06:53] Oh, okay. Okay, okay.

Peter J. Brown [01:06:55] Yeah. We've always allowed.

John Dehlin [01:06:58] Not in Mormon troops, though. Right?

Peter J. Brown [01:06:59] Not a Mormon troops.

John Dehlin [01:07:00] That's why I've never. That's why.

Peter J. Brown [01:07:02] Correct. Not in Mormon troops. But when I was a kid, only women were den leaders. And now in the LDS Church, you have both men and women that are den leaders. So that has been. That's a change that's happened.

John Dehlin [01:07:13] Right. So is this. So some people are really worried this is going to hurt the Girl Scouts, that the Girl Scouts are important. And it seemed like what I read is the Girl Scout CEO made some comment basically saying, hey, Boy Scouts, you don't even have enough. You're not even successfully marketing the boys these days. Why don't you focus on marketing to boys and keep your hands off the girls?

Peter J. Brown [01:07:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] You're cutting into our market. I mean, that's, that's the sense I got from her statement.

Peter J. Brown [01:07:43] Yeah. Well, it's funny because a couple years ago when they were talking about this, they were one of the solutions to this whole full family thing was to partner with the Girl Scouts. More to. So, for example, if a family went to Scout unit in a church, the boys could go over here to this corner with the Boy Scouts, the girls go over this corner with the Girl Scouts, and we'll be one happy family. And that was kind of looked at as an alternative. But like I said, one of the problems with that is just the models are so incompatible.

Peter J. Brown [01:08:17] Where the Girl Scouts own their own units, the Boy Scouts charter their units. That was part of the problem. And another one is just there's a values incompatibility. The Boy Scouts are seen still as a God fearing, duty to God organization.

Peter J. Brown [01:08:32] The Girl Scouts have no religious litmus test. There's kind of a conservative liberal thing going on there and I don't know if they would have played well together.

John Dehlin [01:08:42] Can atheists be, can open atheists be Boy Scout leaders or Boy Scouts?

Peter J. Brown [01:08:49] No, not at this point.

John Dehlin [01:08:50] Neither one.

Peter J. Brown [01:08:52] Neither one.

John Dehlin [01:08:53] Okay.

Peter J. Brown [01:08:55] Now somebody. Now I have quite a few, I would say nominally atheist friends that I associate with and you know, I tell them, well, so say you're a secular Buddhist, right. And you have a construct of God being a higher power. I think there's workarounds. But for those that have an integrity issue, we're just saying, no, I do not believe in God. I don't want to subscribe to that. I don't think there's a path for them, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:09:33] Yeah. So this has been really, really fascinating. I want to keep going, but I'm close to needing to, to wrap up today. I'm really grateful for everything you've shared so far. I guess I have two, three final questions. One is, what's the future? Do you feel like the Boy Scouts are drowning and this is like a last gasp for relevance and that in 5, 10, 20 years we may see the Boy Scouts kind of fading? That's my first question. Are the Boy Scouts of America in trouble? Brief, briefer answer if you can.

Closing Thoughts and Reflections

Peter J. Brown [01:10:13] Well, if they are, I think it has more to do with insurance and lawsuit issues than anything else as far as like their programs and stuff. I, you know, I think that if they could just market them better, I don't know if we could find a way to provide because I see, I mean, obviously I work here, I love it. I see kids lives who are changed for the better and through these experiences. And I know it works, but you know, I just think that sometimes we get lost in the bureaucracy of how we administer the organization. That's kind of what cripples us more.

John Dehlin [01:10:52] But part of the marketing is the fact that they're being perceived as anti women, anti lgbt, anti secular, like more and more, just like the LDS Church. I guess if you tie yourself to conservative religions and conservative religions are going down the tubes, you risk going down the tubes with them, right?

Peter J. Brown [01:11:13] Well, I Mean, I think there's a contingent in the BSA that may see that and say, hey, we need to find ways to embrace more than just conservative religions. But the other fear is that, is that people feel like that if they try to cozy up to or be more open to liberals or progressives, that liberals and progressives will say, hey, thanks for changing now, but see you later anyway, because we're not interested.

John Dehlin [01:11:40] And you risk losing the conservative chapters. Like, the church is seeming to pull out. Which leads to my next question. Do you see someday when the LDS Church just is no longer affiliated with Boy Scouts at all, they just kind of cut loose. Is this recent announcement putting at risk the relationship between the church and Boy Scouts?

Peter J. Brown [01:12:01] I don't think the recent announcement is. I think that the hassle in 2014 has more to do with it. But again, I think there's these. This issue of the global church wanting to have a global program for all their youth that's standard and correlated everywhere you go. And I think that's the bigger pressure. But on the flip side, who knows, maybe they could work out a bargain with the national BSA and make it work.

John Dehlin [01:12:30] But right now, Jeffrey Holland's on the board of the national gfa, right? Bsa, Correct. Jeffrey R. Holland.

Peter J. Brown [01:12:36] So I think is the general primary president and general. And Ms. President, a few others.

John Dehlin [01:12:41] That's a lot of Mormons on a board. Yeah.

Peter J. Brown [01:12:44] I mean, and that's just LDS general authorities. You know, if you look at, you know, Charles Dahquist is a national commissioner, former Young Men's General board or general president.

John Dehlin [01:12:56] The.

Peter J. Brown [01:12:56] The former president of bsa, Wayne Perry, was a Latter Day Saint member from Washington. So you have lots of members of the LDS Church that are probably on the board. Okay, so.

John Dehlin [01:13:06] So does this make you happy or sad to see the Boy Scouts maybe struggling and more importantly, to see them making accommodations to LGBT leaders and youth. Now women. Does this make you happy or sad or mixed? Well, back.

Peter J. Brown [01:13:24] Yeah, back when they, you know, I'm a little bit younger, and if you look at a lot our organization, anybody who's under 50 tends to be a lot more open to the diversity of this. When you get above 50, it seems a little bit different, but for me, I embrace all the changes they made. I. I liked, you know, I preferred dealing with problems of behavior instead of problems of identity. And then in this recent announcement, I'm excited about, because I've seen so many girls who have already seen their lives change for the better because of the Boy Scouts of America. And I'd love to see more girls be involved.

John Dehlin [01:14:09] So for you it's a good change, is that what you're saying?

Peter J. Brown [01:14:12] Absolutely. My wife and I ran a camp down in Utah. Maybe this is my feel good kind of pitch at the end. We ran a camp down in Utah in central Utah. And a third of our clientele were young women leaders who didn't like the canning and bandana camps that they went to. And so they came to our High Adventure base and had a fantastic time. And we've seen again what we do help change the lives of girls and make them better. And you know, here in Idaho even, we run a program for youth training called Cedar Badge. And our fastest growing segment of individuals that are interested in that program are young ladies who are lds.

Peter J. Brown [01:14:58] So we're excited to see that, that take place. And a lot of our Lady, a lot of our female leaders are really excited about that change. And so for me, there's kind of a. I'm kind of excited about it.

John Dehlin [01:15:18] That's exciting. Really quickly, do we know if the church is going to allow young women to be part of the ward sponsored scouting programs from ages 12 on?

Peter J. Brown [01:15:32] I wish.

John Dehlin [01:15:34] When you say you wish, you don't know?

Peter J. Brown [01:15:36] No, I don't know, but I wish they would do that. I think that would, that would solve some problems for them.

John Dehlin [01:15:41] So they had. They haven't made it clear yet whether they're going. So local, local troops or councils are allowed to decide if they want to incorporate women or not, Is that what you're saying?

Peter J. Brown [01:15:54] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:15:54] Okay. So the church may or may not allow young women to be part of their local scout.

Peter J. Brown [01:16:01] At this point, they're saying no on their website. But I don't, you know, like I said, I've seen it help so many young women. I'd like to.

John Dehlin [01:16:08] They did, they did make a statement.

Peter J. Brown [01:16:09] Yeah. If you go to the. On the desk, Deseret News or LDS Living, you see the statement that they

John Dehlin [01:16:14] made just, just the past couple days.

Peter J. Brown [01:16:17] Yeah, we're gonna continue to use the scout program to serve young men. We've got our own young women's program.

John Dehlin [01:16:21] Got it, Got it.

Peter J. Brown [01:16:22] But I've seen a lot, I've seen a lot of comments on social media from young women that are going now, now that it's. It's parody with the Boy Scouts. Can we play too?

John Dehlin [01:16:32] Yeah, yeah. That's gonna be interesting. Well, I do think that the more, the more women and girls that get involved, you may need to change your name. Maybe I could just see all these girls running around Saying I'm a proud Boy Scout.

Peter J. Brown [01:16:47] Well, it's Scouts usa, I think. I mean, if you look at the other countries, that's kind of what Scout.

John Dehlin [01:16:52] I'm a Scout. I'm a Scout.

Peter J. Brown [01:16:54] Scouts Canada. But I had a really hard time changing that brand. For me, it's just what I'm used to.

John Dehlin [01:17:01] Sure, sure. All right. Turn your video back on. I just want to thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Peter Brown, it was great to have you. I really appreciate you clearing up some things. Any final things you want to say to our audience before we say goodbye?

Peter J. Brown [01:17:19] I think a program is great. It doesn't matter what you believe. I would love to see it be inclusive for all kids. And I think it.

John Dehlin [01:17:28] And leaders. And leaders, Yeah.

Peter J. Brown [01:17:30] I think it does great things for kids. It has them. Do they get to do hard things in the outdoors with guided leadership? And I've seen the change it's made to these kids over their lives. So.

John Dehlin [01:17:43] So you hope. You hope the bright days are ahead for the boys, Boy Scouts or for Scouting?

Peter J. Brown [01:17:49] Yeah, Yeah, I do. And that's not just because I'm employed. I, you know, I'm also a volunteer. I just enrolled my son in Cub Scouts. I want to see it, be there for him, for my other son, and. And for our young women as well. And that it lasts into the 22nd century.

John Dehlin [01:18:08] Yeah. And if. And if you could make more money doing other jobs, you must be doing this in part because you believe in the mission.

Peter J. Brown [01:18:14] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:18:16] Yeah. All right, Peter Brown, thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories. It was great to have you. We really appreciate it. We hope you'll come back if there are other developments. Is that okay?

Peter J. Brown [01:18:26] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:18:26] All right. Thanks, Peter.

Peter J. Brown [01:18:28] Hey, you're welcome. Bye.

John Dehlin [01:18:29] And everyone who's joined us on Facebook Live, we just want to thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. It was great to have you. Thanks for your comments and questions. Please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to continue the conversation there. For those of you who can, please don't be a freeloader. Please Support us@mormonstories.org 10 or 25 or 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford, can literally keep us alive. Your donations in the United States are tax deductible and go towards supporting the mission of the Open Stories Foundation. I want to thank everyone for their support. Please email us if you have any questions or ideas at mormonstories@gmail com and we'll be tuning in again. Soon for more episodes. Thanks again, Peter, and thanks, everybody. Take care.

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