Welcome Back and Setting the Scene

Rock Waterman [00:00:01] Scoot that out of the way.

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin, and The date is June 4, 2015. Thursday. It's the day after Rock Waterman's excommunications. So we're here to bring Rock back and to talk about the events of June 3rd. And, and with Rock is his wife Connie. And they have a configuration such that they're speaking through a headset. So whoever wears the headset is going to be talking. So Rock's going to be talking for most of the interview, but there'll be points, at least one point, if not a couple, where he's going to pass the headset to Connie. So those of you who are watching on YouTube, visually you'll see Rock and Connie and, and they'll take turns talking as it makes sense. But, but Rock and Connie, welcome to Mormon Stories Pod.

Rock Waterman [00:00:58] Thank you, John. Glad to be back as always.

Walking Into the Council Meeting

John Dehlin [00:01:01] All right, so let's just start from the beginning. Take us through what happened yesterday.

Rock Waterman [00:01:06] Well, it was interesting because I got a letter from the Stake President a couple days after I got the summons. It was a letter about how we are not going to be allowed to record and that anybody in the room, any witnesses, including myself, would not be allowed to record and have to sign a document promising not to. And if we wouldn't sign the document, then we couldn't get in, including me, so I couldn't go to my own hearing. It was interesting that that letter itself reminded me that I didn't have to come, but I was invited to come if I wanted to.

Rock Waterman [00:01:42] We thought it was kind of amusing from the beginning. They gave me an eight days notice and then it was an invitation. Yeah, you can come if you want. It's not important. Clear from the get go that it was a predetermined outcome.

Rock Waterman [00:01:57] Stake President Douglas Hanson, Very, very insidious. This was. It's interesting because we were wondering what the charges would be. And it's interesting that he didn't take the tact that your blog is driving people out of the church, which was his previous assumption, what he had claimed previously. But clearly he sees enough online or someone has provided him enough online of people responding to how much the blog has helped them stay in the church. So the tactic that he took was that my blog is persuading people not to go to the temple, which.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] Okay, real quick before we jump into that. So talk us through. When you walked into the building, was there anybody there to support you?

Rock Waterman [00:02:51] Oh, yeah, I was astonished. There Were more than a dozen people just coming out of the woodwork. I didn't know there was really anybody around here. There were some people who traveled a ways and a couple of people who just had to be in the area and thought, oh, good, we'll go and support them. So had a lot of love and support. And while I'm on the topic of love and support, my gosh, Facebook is just. We're overwhelmed with the love and support of all these people, many, many, many of whom we've never heard from before. And it's just very helpful. And previously we had a lot of prayers offered up.

Rock Waterman [00:03:29] And I got to tell you, those prayers made a big difference in the room. They didn't make a big difference in the outcome, but my ability to articulate my position and speak by the spirit was clearly enhanced because of all the love and energy and prayers that were provided.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] Did people take you up on your offer to email you to send notes to the stake president?

Rock Waterman [00:03:58] Yes, yes. Tons of them. I had so many of those that I didn't even have. What I did was I printed each one, each statement on a separate piece of paper, and I spent most of the previous day doing that until I had more than 90 of them. And we ran out of ink in my printer and ran out of time anyway. But I could have provided hundreds. And I took those with the intention of reading them aloud. And as I'll tell you later, there wasn't time to read very many. But each one of them, essentially we had people who said, thanks to your blog, my wife and I are active in the church, married in the temple, full tithe pairs, just tons of things like that.

Rock Waterman [00:04:40] We got one from a young man who said he was an atheist and he joined the church. And it's because of reading my blog. So the entire tactic that we expected from them, and partially that's what they did, that my blog was detrimental to people and driving people out, leading them out of the church.

Rock Waterman [00:05:03] Completely overcome by that, I left the stack of. And it was a stack a good half an inch high of testimonials. I left that with them. Of course, I'm sure they didn't read it, but I read as I had time for.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] Okay, so how did it feel to have people there as you're walking into the building?

Rock Waterman [00:05:22] It was wonderful because I wasn't really expecting it. You got to remember, this isn't a watershed moment for me because I recognize that it's meaningless. They don't have the authority to cut me off from God as They believe they do. They don't have the authority to separate me from my wife in the eternities. They don't have the authority to blot my name. It's just incredible arrogance to imagine that God is up in heaven saying, oh, my gosh, Douglas Hansen has directed me to blot out the name of Rock Waterman. So I've got to get to that. It's a meaningless procedure. But the reason I.

Rock Waterman [00:06:05] I showed up and followed through was I felt it important to state the position of all of these people. Tens of thousands of people who are having trouble with the church, who are learning to reconcile, remain lds. Whether or not the Church appreciates them or not, the important thing is the leadership of the church today is irrelevant. I'm convinced that the Lord has withdrawn his spirit from that body.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] Okay, so how was it? How was it? So you walk in the building. What was next? Talk us through sequentially what happened.

Rock Waterman [00:06:43] There was a woman who greeted us and a couple of two older men and a younger gentleman. And she said, are you rock? She's a very pleasant woman. We learned later that she was low public relations for the church, and so was apparently one of the other men. And they were in the foyer to essentially keep everybody else out. Everybody had to wait outside except for those who had offered to testify on my behalf. And a couple of had that opportunity because I guess they weren't properly asked. But we had some good witnesses, and it was just some powerful stuff. And yet we were before a body that was spiritually dead.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] Okay, go in order. Go in order.

Rock Waterman [00:07:32] Okay. All right. Okay. All right. I'm jumping ahead of myself. So Connie and I said, I'd like my wife to be there with me. And fine. So we go into the building, and there's all these men. And they stood when I came in, and I had Connie in her wheelchair, and we parked up there on top, and I was pleasant, and they showed me the seat, and I said, so this is the hot seat. And so.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] So there's 15, right? There's 12 and then three, right?

Rock Waterman [00:07:59] Yeah. I'm told there were 17 men. I bothered to count them, but there were extra men. And someone said they were like three or four bishops who were interested in seeing. My own bishop wasn't there. At least I didn't notice him.

John Dehlin [00:08:09] Okay. Okay. So 17 people.

Rock Waterman [00:08:12] My former home teacher was in there. I guess maybe he's now a member of the high council.

John Dehlin [00:08:17] Okay.

Rock Waterman [00:08:17] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] All right, so more than more than 15. What else?

Rock Waterman [00:08:24] So the stake president in most Quiet and officious way, you know, gentle. It was interesting because it's just like Paul Toscano and Margaret Toscano described the so called court of love as, you know, as being raped by the Care Bears because you know that they don't like you, you know that they're there to, in their mind, strip you of, of value in your lives. But President Hanson, he laid out the way it was going to go. He said, I'll talk for 15 minutes, I'll lay out the complaint and there will be no give and take, no questions answered during that time. So I sat quietly, I listened, and the strategy was that Rock Waterman is teaching people that they don't need to go to the temple.

Rock Waterman [00:09:27] And I looked at Glass, at Connie, and I thought, well, where is that ever in my blog? So he went through a stack of papers he had and he said he had much more, but he didn't have time. But he said the procedure then would be I would be given 45 minutes to respond and that would include the time of my witnesses. So I didn't really have much time. By the time I got through with my witnesses, I had 15 minutes.

John Dehlin [00:09:50] Okay, wait, talk through his actual case. Give us a little more detail.

Rock Waterman [00:09:57] His case was essentially, he took three of my blogs. Now you got to remember these four, these other men in the room were not familiar with me. Most of them had not read any of the blog. So they're getting this cold and they're getting this idea that this guy that is before them now is teaching people how to avoid going to the temple. Which of course, if you read my blog, there's nothing like there. But he started with the title of my piece, Go Ahead and Temple Wedding. Now, John, as you go ahead, you

John Dehlin [00:10:35] cut out, say it again.

Rock Waterman [00:10:36] It's called Go Ahead and Skip that Temple Wedding.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] Okay, right.

Rock Waterman [00:10:40] Yeah. Now, I deliberately title my pieces to be provocative. But if you read into the piece, you realize I'm not telling people to skip the temple, saying skip the wedding. And I explained in there. Now once again, I'm telling you what the piece says. But the President did not.

Rock Waterman [00:11:02] He quoted a few lines to give the impression that I was telling people to go to the temple. Because what I said directly in that piece is that the only doctrine on weddings that this church has was given in, in D.C. 101, which was removed in 1871 because it was an embarrassment. But the doctrine from Joseph Smith was that all men or all weddings in this church are to take place in a public place.

Rock Waterman [00:11:32] And I went on to explain that by all means, get sealed in the temple, but your wedding should be a public place, as Joseph Smith taught. And then you take that wedding and you get it sealed for time and eternity. Well, of course, the bishop left that part out.

John Dehlin [00:11:46] Okay, okay, do me a favor. Tell me without you responding to his statements, just tell us what. Just tell us the case that he made.

Rock Waterman [00:11:56] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] Because I assume in your follow up you're going to talk about your responses.

Rock Waterman [00:12:00] Well, to tell the truth, I just didn't have the time.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] Well, well, we can allow people to read those pieces, but focus on his case just so that we know.

Rock Waterman [00:12:08] So his case was, you don't need to go to the temple. It's a bad idea to go to the temple and rock is teaching. And so then what he would do, he would respond with, in this case, I think it was a statement by President Hinckley about how important it was to be married in the temple. And then he would have something from the handbook and something from a manual. And so he was overcoming my apostate teachings by showing what the doctrine actually is. So then he next went to a piece called are we paying too much tithing? Again, a provocative title that implies that, hey, maybe we shouldn't be paying so much tithing.

Rock Waterman [00:12:47] So. And he combined that with another piece that was called when tithing settlement goes horribly wrong. And he responded with these by statements from general authorities of how important tithing is and so on and so forth. And then thirdly, let's see, what was the other one? Oh, yeah, too bad I don't like beer.

Rock Waterman [00:13:09] So I've got a piece called too bad I don't like beer, in which I. I taught that beer had never been considered one of the spirits. It was banned, that beer was the mild barley drink spoken of in 17. But he went off. Then he not only quoted some general authorities about the evils of beer, but he went off on this diatribe of the evils of alcohol and how addictive alcohol is. So that was his case.

John Dehlin [00:13:42] So those are the four articles that he mentioned.

Rock Waterman [00:13:46] Exactly. So it was too bad I don't like beer. Are we paying too much tithing when

John Dehlin [00:13:53] tithing settlement goes horribly wrong?

Rock Waterman [00:13:55] Interestingly, he did not touch on the piece that Brett Bartel. I think it was Brett, that the guest post about Mission, it's called how to calculate what you owe in tithing. Because that's an embarrassment. Anybody who goes to that, and that's eye opener. And people get really indignant when they find that their tithing Money is being spent for the horseback riding lessons and swimming lessons and tutus of mission presidents.

John Dehlin [00:14:26] Okay. So I think we can basically leave our listeners to read what you wrote in those articles. And I think it's fair to just say that in your mind, he was sort of creating a strawman where he was mischaracterizing in many cases the articles that you wrote and that it wasn't a fair characterization of them as he related them to the.

Rock Waterman [00:14:46] It was very unfair. And it was designed to convince the men present that I advocated things I did not advocate at all when I. The bishops. What about the bishops? Okay, Connie, Connie's turn.

John Dehlin [00:15:04] All right, Connie, give it to us.

Guest [00:15:06] Okay. He said that he had picked at random bishops in the stake to read these articles and pick out the things essentially that would get rock. I mean, he didn't say that, but that bothered them and that would be considered apostasy. So he was going by their statements, according to him.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] So kind of a collective wisdom of both his judgment and the judgment of some local bishops.

Guest [00:15:40] Some local bishops.

John Dehlin [00:15:41] Okay, okay. That's, that's. You know, different people think about revelation in different ways. It sounds like he considers revelation to come through maybe a collaboration with others.

Rock Waterman [00:15:53] You know, there was one other facet and it was my, what he consider my disrespect for the leaders of the church, that I was not able to sustain them as prophets, seers and revelators. And I. Well, I'll tell you what my answer to that was when that time comes. So, yes, so now it comes time for my defense and my witnesses. So Connie went first and back to Connie.

Inside the Disciplinary Council

Guest [00:16:27] Well, I have a pretty severe heart arrhythmia. And so I'm in this room with 17 really kind of hard nosed guys. And it was difficult for me. And so at this point, my heart was getting so bad, my right arm was going numb and I was just. I was becoming more in a weakened state. I was very upset because things were so taken out of context and, well, there were just a lot of things that bothered me. And you could look around the room and you could see some of these men, most of them were looking at us with really hard faces. But there were some who seemed open, maybe even compassionate.

Guest [00:17:11] Possibly they were compassionate towards me because I was married to this apostate. I have no idea. But I testified that I left the church in 2007 and I in many ways became an anti Mormon because of blogs, other blogs that I had read, which was very unlike me.

Guest [00:17:33] And I wanted to take my name off the roll. And I testified that Rock talked me out of doing that. He said, why don't you stay in the church while you're working all of this through and working it out? And he was so loving and kind about this, you know, didn't judge me for it.

Guest [00:17:51] And I said it was Rock's blog that ultimately brought me back to the truth, to the Book of Mormon, to the restoration, all of the things that I thought most Mormons held dear. And I said essentially that if you're going to. And at this point I was getting very weepy and I said, look, if you're going to judge my husband out of the church handbook. Because that kept being quoted. It was the ensign in the church handbook. Rock was quoting scripture, but I didn't hear a scripture or a reference to Christ, not once in there even a reference, much less we were bearing our testimonies and speaking of Christ and it didn't matter to them.

Guest [00:18:43] And so at this point I said, if you're going to go from the church handbook, then I'm done here. And I was just, I was shaking so badly. I just, I was going to stay there the whole time with Rock, but I decided, you know, I needed to get out of there before I had a stroke or something, you know. So anyway, that was me back to Rock.

John Dehlin [00:19:04] Thanks, Connie.

Rock Waterman [00:19:07] All right, so our former home teacher was kind enough to wheel her back out. She was in her wheelchair. Any testimony of Christ was steered back to what about the brethren? Do you have a testimony of the leaders of the church? Do you support them? Do you sustain them? No matter how vigorously either of us would testify of Jesus Christ, of the importance of the Book of Mormon, the importance of Joseph Smith's role, It always came back to what about the modern living prophets?

John Dehlin [00:19:39] Right.

Rock Waterman [00:19:40] They didn't want to hear. It was almost as if the name of Jesus Christ was anathema. It was poison. Put up a cross. No, we don't want to hear that. We want to hear what you think about the modern leaders. It was surreal. I will say this. There was lots of love in that room. But Connie and I brought it in with us. When we walked in, it wasn't there. And it was.

Guest [00:20:08] Tell them about the picture on the wall.

Rock Waterman [00:20:10] What was the picture on the wall?

Guest [00:20:11] The picture on the wall was of Jesus Christ washing his disciples feet. And it's just they were so. Well, they just, they weren't anywhere near that. These people. Clearly I felt hate coming from them towards Rock and they just wanted him out. Well, I don't Care to hear about Christ? They didn't care about anything.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] Right. Okay. Okay, Rock, tell us more about your defense.

Rock Waterman [00:20:43] Okay. So they wheeled Connie out, and I was given 45. Well, actually, Connie had already eaten, or her testimony already eaten. Cut into some of the time I was given. I had four or five men coming and then. And also my testimony, all within 45 minutes. So I started by. I showed them this sheaf of papers, and I started reading them.

Rock Waterman [00:21:09] Sometimes very brief, a sentence, a line. Sometimes there were longer stories. And I started to get on fire, you know, because here were people saying they were thanking me. Because, you know, there's a lot of confusion in the church and my blog.

Rock Waterman [00:21:30] What I try to do is show people that you can be a Mormon and you don't have to worry about what the corporate church is up to. They're irrelevant. Well, I think that's one of the things that really bothers the men, because to them, the CEOs of the company. If you don't respect the CEOs, why would you want to be a member of the church? Well, the reason I want to be a member of the church, I told them, is because Jesus Christ told us that his church is all who repent and come unto him.

Rock Waterman [00:21:56] That's it. We are not required to pay allegiance to anyone else. We're not even required to believe in Joseph Smith in order be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. So then, before too much time went by, I asked for my first witness to be brought in. And I can't recall what order they are, and I'm reluctant to name them because, well, two of them are on the high councils of their various wards in different parts of California.

John Dehlin [00:22:25] Are they stakes?

Rock Waterman [00:22:26] Stakes, yes, they're high council members. And one of them has sat through 20 of these. And he said, the interesting thing about this one fella is he's not really a big fan of the blog, but he's a friend of mine through Connie. He went to high school with Connie. And so we've. And he told them that we've spent about five hours a year. Every once a year we have dinner together. And he says, I spent probably 20 hours between time talking with Rock.

Rock Waterman [00:22:59] And he says, I've read several of his articles, and he says, I can tell you one thing, there's nothing there that's toxic. So that was a good testimony that another high council member came in and he told about how he had begun having his doubts and questions, and he lived in a neighboring town.

Rock Waterman [00:23:18] And he contacted me, and we went out for pizza together and we talked for three hours. And he said, never in any of that time did rock give me any reason to. To doubt the church or to see the church as the enemy. We found the common ground in our relationship with Christ and what we respect about the restoration and the Book of Mormon. And another fellow came in and he said he had been having some real struggles and doubts and questions and that by reading my blog, he was able to reconcile these things and remain in the church. And he and his wife are active.

Rock Waterman [00:24:02] They've got three children raising in the church. And then a doctor who just had to come. And once again, I'm sure he wouldn't mind his name being used, but I'm not sure. Here's the reason why people are reluctant to have their name associated with me, because there is an element of fear created by the church today that if you stand up for somebody, they might go after you.

Rock Waterman [00:24:26] So, anyway, this doctor has just come in to work at the UC Davis Hospital, and wonderful guy, just love him to death. And he testified about, you know, essentially the same thing these guys were. So then when they were gone, I read some more of these documents, and then I really lit into the stake president for being disingenuous. I told him, you misquoted Lorenzo Snow. When you read Lorenzo Snow's quote that says, every man, woman and child in the church should pay a proper tithe. I said, there's an ellipsis in there. You read that out of the handbook. Didn't you notice the ellipsis? They left out three important words.

Rock Waterman [00:25:11] Every man, woman and child who has means. I said, now, why do you think that the church handbook left out three little words? There's just not space enough for it. I said, because we are being led down a path of an understanding of tithing that isn't proper. He had called me. He had accused me of calling Jeffrey Holland a liar. And the context was in my blog on tithing, I referred to a link. Well, he read what I said. I said, and if you think that these men aren't above fabricating the truth when it suits their purposes, take a look at this link. That link led to a talk by Geoffrey Holland that he gave in conference.

Rock Waterman [00:25:53] And in that talk, he purported to read a pamphlet that James Talmadge had written in the early 1900s. And in that pamphlet, James Talmage explained that tithing is not to be paid in advance. It's to be paid annually at the end, after you know what your increase. Increase is. And that.

Rock Waterman [00:26:15] That those who don't have. He says, some years you won't have increase. You're not required. You're not obligated to pay tithing. So all these things were in this pamphlet, but Geoffrey Holland was selectively leaving those out and then adding his own opinion in this talk, so that when you read the talk, you can see the parts that he added that imply that he's still reading the pamphlet he's depending on. And for those who don't know, James Talmage was an apostle. Orson Pratt taught the same things. And today we have people.

Rock Waterman [00:26:48] So part of my testimony, I said, we have bishops telling widows that if they don't pay their tithing, they can't get in the temple. I said, this man here is trying to tell you that I'm telling people they can't get in the temple. And I say, it's a disgrace that any of you would keep a poor widow out of the temple because she hasn't paid for the privilege. Anyway, I. I got to admit, I was on fire in a few places, and I was getting the attention of some men, and I was beginning to think I was getting through. I'm convinced I was getting through to some of them.

Rock Waterman [00:27:23] Anyway, long story short, I left the sheaf of testimonies. And of course, I also mentioned this is kind of a railroad job because I don't have time. You people don't have time to even know what I'm actually saying, what my positions really are. You have to make a decision.

Rock Waterman [00:27:45] So anyway, they did that. I was taken out and waited in the waiting room with the public relations people. By the way, one of the public relations people seemed to be there because he was a younger guy. He was probably there as muscle. So I'm guessing that they expected the media to be there and maybe some kind of riot. So I don't know. You know, what do they expect? They have to have people to. They have to keep the other people out of the building. I can't. They come sit in the foyer. It was nonsense anyway.

Guest [00:28:19] These people were kissing up to me especially, like you would not believe. Can I push your wheelchair into the bathroom and getting me water? And just all these smiles and all this joy. And I will say the last thing I said when I witnessed about Rock, I said, if you're going to excommunicate my husband, then you're going to have to excommunicate me, because I believe the way that he does.

Guest [00:28:48] And I'm going to set up my own excommunication now. It's time. It's time. I'm not going to just go away quietly. Even though it's terrifying to me, I believe that the way they spoke about Rock, the way they took things out of context, it was.

Guest [00:29:09] And I've always told this, I've always told Rock this. I said, they're going to come after you because you're affecting their pocketbook. And ultimately, that really was what this was all about. They threw in the beer thing and the temple. But really what it is, people are paying their tithing in a different way since Rock wrote these blogs on their own, making their own decisions. And ultimately that. That's what it's about. It's about the money. So I'm done. Anyway, I just wanted to get that in.

John Dehlin [00:29:44] Okay, thanks, Connie.

Rock Waterman [00:29:48] I should back up just a tad. When the bishop, the bishop interrupted me because my time was finished. And he says, okay, now, you know, it's time for you to go out

John Dehlin [00:29:55] and we will deliver President. Right.

Rock Waterman [00:29:58] Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [00:29:58] Just making sure.

Rock Waterman [00:30:00] So the men all stood and I said, okay, let's have hugs all around. So I hugged each one of these men. Not all of them knew how to react to that because honestly, John, I don't hold any animosity. These men were being played. You know, most of these men, they didn't know the first thing. And I don't.

Rock Waterman [00:30:21] I don't hold guile, but I don't respect the stake president for what he did and the way he did it. And it's pretty clear to me, especially based on the fact that he had in the past, that he wasn't interested in my blog or really interested in excommunicating me. And now he has a paper, a stack, a file of papers to use against me.

Rock Waterman [00:30:45] Everybody knows that this is a setup. Everybody knows that this comes from above and that there's just no room for someone to tell the truth. I should back up, because when I responded to the things he said and I corrected his errors, I said, you know, there was one thing, Doug, that you left out of your response. You never once quoted the Lord.

Rock Waterman [00:31:10] You quoted the handbook. You quoted manuals. You quoted general authorities who weren't quoting God. But you forgot to tell us what God. God's response. And if you're going to try to overcome the things I say with doctrine, by the way, the things I spoke were doctrine. I didn't make up my opinions.

Rock Waterman [00:31:29] I was laying out what the doctrine of the church is. That's what my blog is all about, essentially. And I've said this before, and most people Understand, our doctrine comes from God. We've got to get away from this idea that anything a leader of the church says is the same as if it comes from God, because that's idolatry.

John Dehlin [00:31:47] Except the Doctrine and Covenants or whatever says, whether by my voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

Rock Waterman [00:31:53] Okay, John, John, I want you to go, when we're done here, look for the blog piece titled not quite the same. That's absolutely. That scripture is completely misapplied. It's never intended to be applied to future leaders of the church, especially this church. But I won't go into that. Leave you and any readers. It's called not quite the same.

Rock Waterman [00:32:18] And by the way, anybody here who's new to this, I would recommend two pieces that I think are probably the most important. One is called who you call an apostate, and the other is my testimony of the church. If you want to get a feel for where I stand and what I'm about, those are the two. My testimony of the church and who you call an apostate. And then add to that not quite the same completely overcomes these ideas that we're taught in the church. Well, look at how easily we allow ourselves to be misled by one snippet of scripture this church has taught us all growing up that scripture in Malachi, will a man rob God?

Rock Waterman [00:33:00] Yet you have robbed me, even this whole nation. So the implication is, we members need to pay our tithing, otherwise we're robbing God. Malachi. If you read Malachi, you can see clearly he is talking to the priests. He's rebuking the priests because they're robbing God and the whole nation because they were embezzling the tithing funds.

John Dehlin [00:33:21] I think you mentioned this in the last episode, too.

Rock Waterman [00:33:23] So it's like this everywhere. This scripture you just quoted by mine own mouth, by the mouth of my servants. It is the same again.

John Dehlin [00:33:31] Okay, so listeners will have to go read those. So tell us. Tell us how it ended. What were the last moments?

The Verdict and Excommunication Decision

Rock Waterman [00:33:36] Okay, so. So we waited for a while, and then he called.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] How long. How long did you wait?

Rock Waterman [00:33:41] Oh, gosh. What do you think? Yeah, a good half an hour.

John Dehlin [00:33:43] So only a half an hour?

Rock Waterman [00:33:45] Yeah. Well, I think it was. It was preordained.

John Dehlin [00:33:49] No, my. Okay, others. Others may have been hours. So that's interesting.

Rock Waterman [00:33:53] Well, did you get a lot more time, too? I bet you did.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] I got an hour.

Rock Waterman [00:33:58] Is that. Well, you got an hour to talk.

John Dehlin [00:34:00] Including witnesses. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Carson and Marisa Got the same thing, but I'm not sure.

Rock Waterman [00:34:06] What did the state president say at the beginning?

Guest [00:34:08] The state president said at the beginning, I will talk for 15 minutes. There will be no interruptions, questions or answers. You have 45 minutes, and there will be no questions or answers. So I am. I was really disappointed at that because I thought, what if these men wanted to ask Rock some questions, but they weren't allowed?

John Dehlin [00:34:30] Right.

Rock Waterman [00:34:30] Well, you know, the fact of the matter.

John Dehlin [00:34:31] Matter.

Rock Waterman [00:34:32] They were given opportunities to ask the witnesses questions, and they just sat there like bumps on a log. I was not impressed with. I'm not impressed with the quality of people in leadership at any level anymore. In my day, when I was younger, we had theologians, we had people who were really interested in the gospel. I didn't get that impression from these guys. Well, the questions that they asked, they asked each one of my witnesses whether they sustain Thomas Monson as prophet. Seeing a revelator. Interesting one note, Joni. That's the only thing they cared about.

John Dehlin [00:35:10] So it's about authority.

Rock Waterman [00:35:11] Basically, it's about authority. If you don't sustain the authority, you don't belong here out of the club.

John Dehlin [00:35:17] Okay. All right. So how did it. So they deliberated.

Rock Waterman [00:35:22] They called me. Half an hour, they called me in, and I go back to my seat. And President, in his quiet, calm voice, tells me the decision has been excommunication. And by the way, for those who are not familiar with how these procedures work, there's not a vote taken. There's deliberation, there's some discussion. But the other members of the High Council don't vote pro or con.

Rock Waterman [00:35:46] What they do is they are given the opportunity to sustain the president in his decision. It's the president's decision whether or not the person is going to be excommunicated or disfellowshipped. And the other fellows, they're given the opportunity to agree with him. And so I came in and I was told it was unanimous. That actually kind of surprised me because I could tell I was getting through. The spirit was very strong when I was speaking. And again, I credit the prayers and the kind energy of all the people who were focusing their energy on this. This is an important. I told these men, I said, we're at an important watershed time in our church.

Rock Waterman [00:36:30] I said, people are leaving. And the President overcame that with Quentin Cook's talk, which is just, you know, you just have to give that a horse laugh. Quentin Cook's latest conference talk, where he said, the church is not losing members. The church is growing so that's. Everybody knows that's just.

Rock Waterman [00:36:52] Well, most of us know that that's just damage control. It's a silly thing to say. The church is stagnant. And any growth that is there is mostly, you know, baptisms of children and third World nations. But.

John Dehlin [00:37:10] So, any other final things about your actual trial?

Rock Waterman [00:37:18] I think I was given a chance to say a few words, and I did. I rebuked. And I said to them as I was leaving. So they all stood up as I was leaving, and I said, you know what I'd suggest you guys do talking to these 12 or 17?

Rock Waterman [00:37:35] I would suggest that you go home and pick five or six of my blog posts at random and get to know. It's too late now to change this, but why don't you read those and get an idea of what I really stand for? And I said, who knows? You may repent of your decision. And they just stared at me.

Rock Waterman [00:37:56] I meant that kind of a jest, but they stared at me like, you know, how dare you. So a fun time was had by all. Again, this was not. This doesn't change anything. I don't know what they intend to call.

Rock Waterman [00:38:12] I did point out. I said to the brethren, I said, this won't cut me off from God. It won't blot out my name. It won't change my relationship with God. It won't affect my testimony. And of course, again and again, I was very adamant about my testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith and the core fundamentals of this faith. But I said, the only thing it will do. And I pointed to Doug Hanson. The only thing it will do is he'll be able to point and say, well, that guy's been excommunicated, so he has no credibility. I said, it's not working anymore. We are living in a time when there are so many people leaving the church and everybody has somebody in their family who's left the church.

Rock Waterman [00:38:52] It doesn't mean anything and you're not scaring anybody anymore. So do what you will, but it changes nothing. Well, I mentioned this because you see this on my blog. I say that we're living in a time where we have two religions in this church running side by side, both vying for. I forgot the words.

John Dehlin [00:39:18] Anyway, kind of the Church of Christ and the corporate church.

Rock Waterman [00:39:21] Yeah, and the corporate church. And the corporate church feels like it's winning, but it's not. They think that they are in the right. If we ever understood what Phariseeism was like in the ancient days, this Is it? There's a sense of certainty that we are in the right and we have more truth than anyone else. And anybody who doesn't believe as we are is an inferior. And I say the church of Jesus Christ belongs to all who repent and come unto Jesus Christ. You don't need these guys. Unless. And once again, frequently within my testimony, I said, and they asked me, do you sustain President Montesson?

Rock Waterman [00:40:05] I said, I sustained him many times. But I said, recently President Russell Nelson said something in conference, and he said that when we sustain the prophet, we are legitimizing his prophetic calling and making that binding upon ourselves. And I said, I don't know about you, but if I don't know that President Monson is a prophet, and the reason I don't know that is because I haven't seen any evidence of it. I'm not going to swear an oath before God.

Rock Waterman [00:40:33] Lie. And you guys keep asking me if I'm going to lie about something I don't know. Now I said, the minute President Monson comes up to the stand and says, I have a message from God, and here's the words he spoke, I'm going to perk right up. But until he does that, they're irrelevant. They don't matter. They don't count. We don't need that corporate church as an umbrella over us. We can worship individually. The Lord said something very interesting in D.C. 1067. In 1067, he defined his church as those who believe and come unto Him. In the very next verse, he said, those who define it as in any other way aren't of my church.

Rock Waterman [00:41:20] And these guys are defining the church's headquarters and the leaders and the entire structure. He's telling them right there, you don't belong, you're out. You guys are the apostates, right?

John Dehlin [00:41:33] Did the disciplinary council feel loving, and did it feel just or fair?

Rock Waterman [00:41:37] It did not feel loving. It didn't feel just and fair. We did all we could to bring love into that room, and it was sincere love, but they weren't reciprocating. There was a deadness to it. Once again, this is not what I've been.

Rock Waterman [00:41:53] This is not the sort of thing I've been accustomed to in my younger days. As I mentioned in my other interview, I have been through a council of love, a court of love. They did exist in the old days. Richard Craycraft, who was the dean of humanities at BYU and a man I greatly admired because he had written several articles for Dialogue magazine, He was the stake President who held forth in the court of love. And he said to me, so this was, as I mentioned before, before I met Connie, I committed a sexual transgression, and I turned myself in and I went through the process.

Rock Waterman [00:42:34] And he said, every man here. Is fully aware that if circumstances presented themselves, they could be in the same situation you're in. No one here, no one here is here to fault you. No one here is here to condemn you. We understand.

Rock Waterman [00:42:59] And I felt that. I felt a Cord of Love 36 years ago. I did not feel anything like that today. I was on trial because I was considered somebody who had broken into their homes and rummaged through their silverware.

Rock Waterman [00:43:20] I didn't matter. And the sooner they can get rid of me, the better. That's why. Eight days notice. You're invited if you want to come, but we're going to do this anyway. Don't even bother if you don't want to.

John Dehlin [00:43:30] And there was no counseling with you in the year leading up?

Rock Waterman [00:43:34] None. And I even asked him when I came back in, and he said, you are being excommunicated for apostasy. I said, would you read the definition of apostasy, please? And he reads the handbook definition, which isn't the actual definition, but it's the one they go by. And he says, it's being disobedient to leaders after frequent corrections. And I said, you never corrected me. I said, I met with you once and the bishop once, and both of you said, you're not even familiar enough with my blog to talk about. And I asked you if there's something in there that you would correct that you found undoctrinal.

Rock Waterman [00:44:11] I'd change it. I'd make the correction. And you said, I'm not really. And he backpedaled on that. He lied. I'm sorry. I'm getting a little worked up. But the man, he had an agenda to follow. He followed it. He did it the way I imagine Saul of Tarsus did in his day when he persecuted the true saints of God. Anything to win, anything to get rid

Guest [00:44:40] of these corporate firing.

Rock Waterman [00:44:42] It was. Yeah, basically, I was called in to a board of directors and told that, you know, I don't respect the leaders in that company. And so out you go.

John Dehlin [00:44:54] So it didn't feel fair or just.

Rock Waterman [00:44:56] It was not fair. It was definitely unfair. It was not just. It was insidious. It was an act of perfidy. It was wrong. And God did not smile on that room. And that's why the room was hard. That's why there was no Spirit in that room, other than the spirit that Connie and I brought to it and my witnesses. You could sense a palpable difference when a lover of Christ walked into that room because the Spirit was with them. But the spirit had withdrawn from those men. I will testify to that.

Life After Excommunication and What Comes Next

John Dehlin [00:45:32] Right. Okay, well, so what's next?

Rock Waterman [00:45:37] Well, I'm going to shut down my blog and begin to obey my priesthood leaders. Nothing is going to change. Connie, of course, will probably follow through. She's going to insist on a court of excommunication. And if they won't give it to her, she'll.

Rock Waterman [00:45:57] She'll write to Salt Lake and complain that they won't hold her accountable. I'm going to, of course, appeal this, because that's what you have to do. I believe the Lord expects us to take every step to give these men the opportunity to condemn themselves, and that's what they did.

Rock Waterman [00:46:16] There were men there whose hearts were touched at one time or another, but ultimately they voted. And, you know, Denver called me yesterday morning to give me a few words of encouragement. And he told me, look, every one of those men was called by that stake president to his position. So of course they believe he's inspired. He called them to high office. So he's not going to make a mistake. So he's not going to. He didn't make a mistake in calling them. He's not going to make a mistake in deciding that someone needs to be gone.

Rock Waterman [00:46:51] What am I going to do? I'm going to blog again soon, and I'm probably going to be more vociferous and bold and not hold back if it's going to be pointed that this guy isn't a member of the church. So don't listen to him. Well, I don't really have to pull my punches then, do I?

John Dehlin [00:47:14] Yeah. Okay. So it'll be business as usual or stronger. Rockwaterman. Stronger than ever.

Rock Waterman [00:47:20] And I'll tell you, I still love the Lord. I walk with him daily, talk with him daily. I love the Book of Mormon. I revere it. And I'm amazed at how prescient it is in foretelling the kinds of people that are going to. That are involved in church leadership today on both the local level and the top level. I'm just amazed at how prescient that book is.

John Dehlin [00:47:48] Yeah. And I guess the scriptures do talk about the church potentially coming under condemnation, right?

Rock Waterman [00:47:53] Yeah, it's palpable. Now, here's an interesting question. Would I recommend anybody else go through this? I don't know. Now, prior to This I recommended everybody. If they want to kick you out, it's best not to resign. Make them. Make them take you kicking and screaming.

Rock Waterman [00:48:15] I think for many people it would be a very traumatic experience. I don't know what it is about me. I'm hardened. It was very traumatic for Connie. She said she's grieving today. I've seen many people post on Facebook and say, I'm so sorry this is happening. Well, I just want to tell them it's a joyous time to be alive in the Lord. It's a joyous time to be able to.

Rock Waterman [00:48:39] To testify of Christ. And it's a really, really surreal thing to be in a room that ostensibly calls itself the Church of Jesus Christ. To have these people dismiss testimonies of Christ, ignore the testimonies of Christ and try to bring you back to. Yeah, but do you idolize the men? That's what they want to know. Do you idolize these men? That's all, I guess, all I've got. All right, now I know I'm quite animated and I may sound upset.

John Dehlin [00:49:12] I love it. I love it.

Rock Waterman [00:49:16] What you've seen tonight is very much. Today is very much like what they saw in that room. There were times of quiet, firm conviction and times when I really laid it on the line. And, you know, it's interesting what the Lord said about the church being under condemnation. You know, we don't. After President Benson reminded us in 1984 that that.83, that. That that condemnation still holds.

Rock Waterman [00:49:47] It was forgotten. Nobody followed up. Nobody reminded us. Nobody re quoted him, but nobody thinks about what that means. Well, what does condemnation mean when a house is condemned? It means it's unfit for the owner to live in.

Rock Waterman [00:50:03] We say this is the Church of Jesus Christ, that this is his home. But if it's under condemnation, if he says he's condemned this home, he's not living in it. And you can feel that when you go to church.

Rock Waterman [00:50:18] I have talked to somebody whose church experience on Sunday is very good. He enjoys it. But the majority of people tell me that there's nothing there. It's dead. And why can't we keep converts? You know, we keep converts an average of nine months because they have had this wonderful spiritual experience with the missionaries who taught them in the Book of Mormon that they read and the Book of Mormon. So they have this one on one and they feel the spirit and then they are brought into the church and the missionaries disappear. And that church experience isn't anything like what they experienced converting them. So they're Gone.

Rock Waterman [00:50:55] And yet the church continues to keep them on the rolls. And I pointed out to these guys, I said, look, remember the church counts as an active member anyone who attends once in a three month period. And they count those three month periods around Christmas and Easter. And so I said, the church boasts of 15 million members. All they have is four and a half million members who they can say are active. And how many of those are only coming once every three months? I said, we have a problem and you guys aren't seeing it. And you're going to kick out the one guy that all of these people.

Rock Waterman [00:51:33] I'm showing this room, all of these people say, this blog has helped me decide to stay in. Do what you're going to do, you fools.

John Dehlin [00:51:44] All right, Connie, give us the last word.

Guest [00:51:47] I was, when I was in the room with the witnesses and a fine friend of mine who came to be there for me and also go and witness for Rock, this man was so upset and he just kept looking at the ground and shaking his head and he said, so many people are going to be hurt by this. He said, what will people do? Well, Rock's okay. He's going to keep preaching the good word. It's going to go on as usual. Rock will go on as usual. There's no reason to be upset, grieve, or, you know, it's just we both love the Lord. I'm very much involved in Rock's blog and I, I can witness and testify to you of his love of the Lord and mine too. And it will just business as usual.

John Dehlin [00:52:49] All right.

Guest [00:52:50] Okay.

Rock Waterman [00:52:50] I would just add that nothing Connie just said is to indicate that anyone's testimony hinges on me because of course it doesn't.

Guest [00:52:58] But some may and that's too bad.

Rock Waterman [00:53:00] These are people who have told me that unfortunately their testimonies in the past hinged on the brethren. And now they're free of that and they can keep their testimonies of the gospel. Yeah, there will be people leaving the church now, but they're not going to be leaving their beliefs behind. They're not going to be.

Guest [00:53:16] Well, that's not what he said. I just want to say he wasn't worried that people were going to leave the church. He was just very concerned about how people were going to take this news. And so I know you got to go, so it's okay.

John Dehlin [00:53:31] My family's calling me for dinner. Rock, you're a modern day Abinadi and bless you.

Guest [00:53:37] He was, you should have seen him.

John Dehlin [00:53:39] And Connie, it's so wonderful to see you at his side and to meet you. And I just want to say bless you both and I'll invite listeners to come up to MormonStories.org to make their comments. Rock and Kanye, I hope you guys will be there to respond. But thank you both for coming on Mormon Stories and for your courage. We love and support you guys and thanks to all the listeners who support Mormon Stories and your contributions make it possible. So bless you both. Rock, you trying to say something? Grab the microphone because I can't hear you unless you got it on.

Rock Waterman [00:54:15] John, thank you for this opportunity to be heard. Somebody asked, why would you want to talk to John Dehlin? He's an apostate. I said, he's the only guy that asked me.

John Dehlin [00:54:25] That's why.

Rock Waterman [00:54:26] All right. And even if others had asked, I would come to you anytime. Thank you for this opportunity. Thanks to all the listeners and viewers and all you people out there in TV land.

Guest [00:54:37] All right.

John Dehlin [00:54:38] We love you guys. Thanks so much. Thanks, Connie, and thanks, listeners. Take care. We'll talk to you soon.

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