Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 23, 2021, and I am very grateful to have you here with me today for kind of a special Mormon Stories podcast episode. And by special, I mean kind of different. I'm doing something today that I

Guest [00:00:26] have

John Dehlin [00:00:26] never done before, and I don't know if I'll ever do it again. And I'll just give you a little bit of background. So, you know, early on in the history of Mormon Stories podcast, I prided myself on trying to be as balanced as possible on trying to interview people who are faithful, people who weren't faithful, interview regular members of the church, ex Mormons, apologists, faithful people, you know, people all across the spectrum, including, you know, scholars and historians. And I was able to do that for several years. And that included interviewing, you know, members of fair Mormon like Scott lynch or John Lynch, Daniel Peterson. It included faithful. Interviewing faithful scholars like Richard Bushman and Terrell and Fiona Givens and others, even Patrick Mason and Thomas McConkey, et cetera.

John Dehlin [00:01:26] And.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] And of course, I would also interview people like Grant Palmer and people who'd left the church and Brett Metcalf and Michael Quinn and others. So for many, many years, I worked really hard to make Mormon Stories podcasts really balanced, have people from all over the spectrum.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] Once I started feeling the obligation to be really open and honest about my problems with the church, and once, frankly, I started seeing the real damage that the church was causing to marriages, to people's individual mental health, to marriages to families, LGBT people, racism, sexism, all that stuff. Once I saw that they continue to silence historians and truth tellers.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Once I started, really, as a mental health professional, getting in, immersing myself in the collateral damage that was caused by the church, I felt an obligation to speak out against those problems. And also once I started to really believe that informed consent was a really important thing and that the church was not observing even the most basic rules or guidelines regarding informed consent, being open and honest about its history.

Guest [00:02:47] And.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] And that that lack of informed consent was causing so much damage, I felt like I had an obligation to speak out and to speak directly.

John Dehlin [00:02:56] And as soon as I did, people

John Dehlin [00:02:58] like Terrell and Fiona Givens, Richard Bushman and others started refusing to come on Mormon Stories podcast. And in fact, this was, of course, exacerbated by my excommunication. And I believe that the Mormon Church intentionally excommunicated me so that my podcast would no longer be experienced as something that was safe to be a part of, by, you know, BYU professors, by Mormon scholars that wanted to remain in the good graces of the church and who wanted access to the church's archives.

John Dehlin [00:03:36] So all of that, I think, was

John Dehlin [00:03:38] intentional and calculated on the church.

John Dehlin [00:03:40] But it, but it has been very

John Dehlin [00:03:41] painful for me that over the past six to 10 years, let's say six to 14 years, let's see. Yeah, 14 years.

John Dehlin [00:03:55] Many people that used to come on

John Dehlin [00:03:57] Mormon Stories won't come on Mormon Stories podcast anymore, and that includes Richard Bushman. So many of you know that I interviewed Richard Bushman in 2007, and for me it was one of the most. Still to this day, it remains one of the most important interviews I've ever done. And, you know, but since that time, Richard Bushman has refused to come back on Mormon Stories, which is totally his prerogative.

John Dehlin [00:04:22] And even though I interviewed Terryl and

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Fiona Givens a couple times there, there came a point when I started being more direct and critical of the church that Terrellyn, Fiona and others have refused to come on Mormon Stories podcast. And that's been really sad for me. It's been very hard. It's their right, but it's been hard.

John Dehlin [00:04:40] And so I have been stewing about

John Dehlin [00:04:45] my sadness around this for many, many, many years.

John Dehlin [00:04:49] And you've probably seen it.

John Dehlin [00:04:51] Those of you who follow Mormon Stories podcast, you've probably seen it come out in the way that I've talked about the Givens's and Patrick Fluman and Patrick Mason and Richard Bushman and Claudia Sorry and Fiona Givens and others. I have been frustrated at their unwillingness to take hard questions, to come on alternative forums and to face the heat and to speak truth and to have integrity, to not just sort of speak in these private firesides and only say the more critical things in these private firesides where they're not saying things publicly. And again, their unwillingness to come on podcasts like this.

John Dehlin [00:05:38] So what I decided to do, you

John Dehlin [00:05:41] know, it was Richard Bushman's birthday this week, and it brought back to me a lot of these feelings I've been having, the sadness that I've been having for a long time about Bushman being unwilling to come on Mormons Words podcast.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] It also reminded me that there was

John Dehlin [00:05:56] this very, very important statement that Richard Bushman made in 2016 about the dominant historical narrative that the church has been teaching for generations being not true or false.

John Dehlin [00:06:10] And me feeling a sense of frustration

John Dehlin [00:06:13] that that even though that statement of Richard Bushman's has now been out for five years. Most Mormons don't even know about it. I was shocked to find out Kara Burrell, this person that I, this, this tiktoker and talented young Mormon woman who's been helping me with TikTok and social

John Dehlin [00:06:34] media, she had never heard of this statement. Just as of a few days ago,

John Dehlin [00:06:38] this really important statement that Richard Bushman made at a fireside in 2016. It was in a private home at a private fireside. He makes this earth shattering statement and nobody knows about it. So those two facts this week inspired

John Dehlin [00:06:52] me to do kind of a one

John Dehlin [00:06:56] off, kind of special episode on Mormon Stories podcast. And I'm calling it Questions I Would Ask Richard Bushman.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] And what this represents is if I

John Dehlin [00:07:08] could ask Richard Bushman certain questions, if he would agree to come on Mormon Stories podcast like he used to, what questions would I ask him? And I didn't just stop there. There's commentary that I prepared in this episode and I also incorporated many questions from you. I've got questions from, from Bill Real, from Alan Mount, from I, I think maybe even something from RFM and many of you listeners. I've aggregated your questions and all of us know that questions aren't just questions. There's often a lot of wisdom and truth in questions. And so with, with all of that, I'm going to just spend the next hour or so alone sharing with you some questions and thoughts and feelings. And I wanted to begin by offering just a few disclaimers. And these disclaimers are really important to me, and I'm listing them here so that you can read them.

John Dehlin [00:08:10] But I do want to offer a

John Dehlin [00:08:12] few disclaimers, and here they are. First and foremost, I want to make sure everyone understands that I have deep respect for Richard Bushman, his talents and his record as a historian. He's a legend by all accounts. I also acknowledge that with Rough Stone Rolling, Richard Bushman has done more to advance honest history within the LDS Church than almost anyone else on the planet, except for, you know, Jeremy Runnels or, you know, certain podcasters or, you know, other historians like Michael Quinn or Dan

John Dehlin [00:08:46] Vogel or Grant Palmer.

John Dehlin [00:08:48] You know, Richard Bushman is up there with his, his contributions to Rough Stone Rolling and the Joe Smith Papers Project. Having said that, I do think more people have learned truthful history through Fawn Brody. Jeremy Runnels Mormon Stories Podcast Grant Palmer

John Dehlin [00:09:03] I do think more people have been

John Dehlin [00:09:05] influenced by them than by Richard Bushman. But he's certainly up there and I want to give him credit for that. He has been an important part in the past 10 or 15 years at helping Mormons and the rest of the world become more knowledgeable about truthful Mormon history. And I want to give him credit for that. I fully acknowledge that Richard Bushman is deeply loved by orthodox believing Mormons, by the Mormon studies crowd, by Mormon historians, and by ex Mormons and post Mormons. And I feel affection for him as well. So I don't mean disrespect by this episode. Even though I think some people are going to accuse me of being disrespectful. I. I mean no disrespect from this episode. I respect him greatly. And so I'm saying that up front.

John Dehlin [00:09:59] One thing that I want to really be clear, I think I, you know,

John Dehlin [00:10:03] some people misinterpreted statements that I made on Facebook in the past or elsewhere that it's my position that Richard Bushman is not a believer in the Mormon Church, or that I tried to misinterpret his statements from the faith. Again, fireside as meaning that Richard Bushman doesn't believe that the church is true. Richard Bushman to this day has made numerous public utterances that he believes in golden plates, listening literally. He believes in angels literally. And he believes that the Mormon Church is true. He believes in the fundamental truth claims of the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] As far as I know, that's still

John Dehlin [00:10:46] true to this day.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] And so please don't take this episode

John Dehlin [00:10:49] as me indicating otherwise, because that's not my understanding.

John Dehlin [00:10:57] I am going to stipulate that I'm

John Dehlin [00:10:58] saddened by the fact that Richard Bushman has refused to come back on a Mormon Stories podcast with when he's been willing to go on so many other podcasts. He's been quite prolific in appearing on podcasts. So it's not a matter of time, it's not a matter of interest. I think it's literally that, you know, that he doesn't feel comfortable taking the hardest questions, the most direct questions.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] I also, I also believe that he

John Dehlin [00:11:30] is trying to do something which I can't really fault him for. He's trying to manage his political capital. He wants access to the church archives. He wants access to the brethren.

John Dehlin [00:11:39] He wants to remain in good graces with the, you know, powerful leaders of the Mormon Church. And he wants to stay a credible

John Dehlin [00:11:48] voice for believing church membership.

John Dehlin [00:11:51] And so for all those reasons, he

John Dehlin [00:11:53] feels like he needs to manage his political capital. So he can't come on a Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [00:11:58] I get it. I don't fault him for that. But it does make me sad and to me, it does, it does take

John Dehlin [00:12:04] down a notch my respect for him, just to be frank, because for me, the person that deserves the most respect and the most credibility is someone who can take the heat from all sides of the aisle and speak with integrity to all audiences, regardless of who or where they are. And frankly, there's so much at stake. There's so many people that have been harmed by, by the lack of honesty and openness by the Mormon Church and its policies for marginalized communities. There's so many people that have been hurt and there's so much at stake and the church is on record deceiving people that I think the people who I hold the most respect for are willing to speak truth to power publicly, candidly and openly. And frankly, as much respect as I have for Richard Bushman, he and Terrell and Fiona Givens and, you know, many other Mormon scholars have, have fallen short.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] I don't think they care that, that,

John Dehlin [00:13:04] that, you know, they don't hold, that I don't hold them in the highest esteem.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] I still hold them with a lot

John Dehlin [00:13:10] of esteem, but not in the highest esteem. And I don't think they care. But I just wanted to say that I'm sure that those feelings influence or bias my, my feedback on what I have to say today. Of course, you know, I wish a couple more disclaimers. Of course I wish that Richard Bushman were here to answer these questions himself. And in that sense, it's not fair or it's unfortunate. I just will, I'll, I'll end this disclaimers by saying my intent is not to malign or slam Richard. These are literally the questions I would ask him if he were here.

John Dehlin [00:13:45] And finally, I do believe that this

John Dehlin [00:13:47] episode will be helpful to people even though Richard's not here to answer the questions.

John Dehlin [00:13:52] So now let's jump into the meat.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] Thanks so much to everyone for being willing to be a part of this episode. I want to begin by playing again this Faith Again Fireside clip that was recorded in Salt Lake city, Utah on June 12, 2016.

Bushman's Key Statements on Faith and Narrative

John Dehlin [00:14:13] And this is so important to me

John Dehlin [00:14:16] for one major reason.

John Dehlin [00:14:20] You know, I'm playing it here because most people have never heard it. Most people don't know about it. And I believe that this little clip, this little clip from a two hour

John Dehlin [00:14:29] fireside that Richard and Claudia Bushman gave

John Dehlin [00:14:32] in the basement of someone's Salt Lake City home to me is one of the most important moments in Mormon Church history.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] And people say that that's ridiculous or

John Dehlin [00:14:42] absurd or hyperbole to me.

John Dehlin [00:14:44] It's not to me. Richard Bushman is the highest ranking historian,

John Dehlin [00:14:50] faithful historian probably in the history of the Mormon Church. He's been educated at Harvard, he's taught at Columbia, he's published kind of an

John Dehlin [00:14:59] authorized biography of Joseph Smith. He was embraced by the Maxwell Institute, by the Joseph Smith Papers Project.

John Dehlin [00:15:06] There is no more well respected historian, Mormon historian, in the history of the

John Dehlin [00:15:12] Mormon Church than Richard Bushman. Not B.H.

John Dehlin [00:15:14] roberts, who wasn't a trained historian, you know, Leonard Arrington, who was dismissed, you know, unceremoniously without even, you know, an

John Dehlin [00:15:24] acknowledgment in General conference from his 10 years as church historian, not Marlon Jensen. Nobody holds the status of Richard Bushman.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] So what he said in this fireside in this basement on June 12, 2016 for me in Salt Lake City is

John Dehlin [00:15:38] one of the most important events in

John Dehlin [00:15:40] Mormon Church history because he acknowledges, in

John Dehlin [00:15:43] my view, that Mormon Church leadership have

John Dehlin [00:15:46] been deceiving the, the church membership for decades, misleading them by teaching a, intentionally

John Dehlin [00:15:56] teaching a false narrative.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] And I'm going to be making that claim very explicitly because people think, or claim, especially apologists claim, that I misrepresent

John Dehlin [00:16:05] what Bushman said here.

John Dehlin [00:16:07] So I'm going to pick it apart piece by piece and I'm going to give sort of like a smackdown rfm, like analysis of, of this statement and

John Dehlin [00:16:16] then I'm going to follow up with questions that would ask Richard Bushman himself.

John Dehlin [00:16:20] But without any further ado, I'm going

John Dehlin [00:16:22] to play this recording and I'm going

John Dehlin [00:16:24] to just stipulate or acknowledge that the audio quality of this, this statement is not good, but I do have subtitles and you'll be able to read those. And even if it's muffled, just give us a couple minutes and I'm going

John Dehlin [00:16:39] to come back and read to you parts of the statement and then address them. But I want to make sure that this statement, that this statement is provided on a Mormon Stories podcast episode and to date it isn't.

John Dehlin [00:16:55] So here it is for all of

John Dehlin [00:16:57] you, Richard Bushman's excerpt, the excerpt from the Faith Again, Fireside in Salt Lake

John Dehlin [00:17:04] City, Utah, June 12, 2016, with subtitles.

John Dehlin [00:17:09] It'll be question, answer, question, answer. And again you can check out the visuals to read what's being said. So I'll now play, I'll now roll the tape.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:17:26] Yes, sir.

Video Clip 1 [00:17:28] So to me, a lot of the incongruity that exists now, the, this giving rise to a lot of practice of faith and doubt situation seems to be caused, in my view, by the disparity between the dominant narrative. The dominant. What I would call the orthodox narrative, which is what we learn as missionaries, what we teach investigators, what we learn in Sunday school. And then as you get older, you kind of start to experience Mormonism in different ways. And those ways become very important to you and dear to you. But sometimes they may not jive with some elements of the orthodox narrative. And so what I'm wondering is, like, in your view, do you see room within Mormonism for several different narratives, multiple narratives of religious experience, or do you think that in order for the church to remain strong, they would have to hold to that dominant narrative?

Video Clip 1 [00:18:29] I think for the church to remain strong, it has to reconstruct its narrative. The dominant narrative is not true. It can't be sustained. So the church has to absorb all this new information or it'll be on very shaky grounds. And that's what it's trying to do. And it'll be a strain for a lot of people, older people especially. But I think it has to change. You know, Elder Packer had the sense of protecting the little people. He felt that the scholars were an enemy to this faith. And it was the grandmothers living in San Pete County. And that was. That was a very lovely pastoral image. But the price of protecting the grandmothers was the loss of the grandsons. They got a story that didn't look right. So we've just had to change,

Video Clip 1 [00:19:28] it seems to me, because, like, what you're saying, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I just wonder, we have such a strong tradition of identicizing the dominant orthodox narrative. And so, you know, how does the church do that without, like you say, like, pushing some people away while also introducing, you know, the idea that it's okay to experience Mormonism in different ways?

Video Clip 1 [00:19:55] Yeah, yeah. The question is, will we leave room to experience Mormonism in different ways, or is our strength the fact that we all hold on to the same tree? Tree huggers. I actually am concerned about that. And I think people who have a more progressive view or who are up to date on what's going on, they know truer version had to be very sympathetic. For people having trouble letting go, there just has to be many ways to grow the church. We want them to be sympathetic of us and as we struggle along, but it has to be a brotherly and sisterly act. We don't want

Video Clip 1 [00:20:48] to break up our community, which is our great strength, in the beauty of the church, in the name of finding some abstract truth that works better for each one of us. So it's going to be a struggle for the next, I don't know, two or three decades anyway, as we go through this process.

John Dehlin [00:21:10] All right, so that is the statement.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] I apologize that it's a little bit hard to hear. And I'm going to just reread it now. The transcriptions of the two statements that Bushman made without the questions, so that,

John Dehlin [00:21:31] you know, they're just really clear so

John Dehlin [00:21:33] that people can hear what Richard Bushman said. He wrote, quote, I think for the church to remain strong, it has to reconstruct its narrative.

John Dehlin [00:21:41] The dominant narrative is not true.

John Dehlin [00:21:45] And that is the main statement that I think is probably the most important sentence uttered in the 20th or 21st century. In Mormonism, the dominant narrative is not true. That's what Richard Bushman said. It can't be sustained. This is Richard Bushman again.

John Dehlin [00:22:02] So the church has to absorb all this new information or it will be on very, very shaky grounds. And that's what it's trying to do.

John Dehlin [00:22:12] And it'll be a strain for a

John Dehlin [00:22:14] lot of people, old people especially, but I think it has to change. Elder Packer had this sense of protecting the little people. He felt like the scholars were an

John Dehlin [00:22:27] enemy to this faith.

John Dehlin [00:22:29] And it was the grandmothers living in Sanpete county, and that was a very lovely pastoral image. But the price of protecting the grandmothers was the loss of the grandsons.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] They got a story that didn't work. So we've just had to change our narrative.

John Dehlin [00:22:49] That is the statement by that. That is the first half of the

John Dehlin [00:22:54] statement from Richard Bushman. Now I'll go on to the second part. He wrote.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] Yeah. The question is, will we leave room to experience Mormonism in different way, or is our strength the fact that we

John Dehlin [00:23:07] can all hold on to the same tree, all hugging in the same spot?

John Dehlin [00:23:11] I actually am concerned about that. And I think people who have a more progressive view or who are up

John Dehlin [00:23:17] to date on what's going on, they

John Dehlin [00:23:19] know, quote, a truer version, have to be very sympathetic for people who are

John Dehlin [00:23:24] having trouble letting go.

John Dehlin [00:23:26] There just has to be many ways

John Dehlin [00:23:28] to grow the church.

John Dehlin [00:23:29] We want them to be sympathetic of

John Dehlin [00:23:31] us as we struggle on. It has to be a brotherly and sisterly act.

John Dehlin [00:23:36] We don't want to break up our community, which is our great strength, and the beauty of the church in the name of finding some abstract, abstract truth that works better for each one of us. So it's going to be its struggle

John Dehlin [00:23:48] for the next, I don't know, two or three decades as we go through this process.

John Dehlin [00:23:53] Okay, so those Are those, those are the statements that I'm basing most of this episode on.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] And I'm going to just do a bit of a,

John Dehlin [00:24:05] hopefully a respectful bit of a smackdown or analysis of some of these statements because they're really important. I do think it's important to note,

John Dehlin [00:24:17] again, something I've already called attention to,

John Dehlin [00:24:19] which is, as far as I know, these are statements that Richard Bushman has never really made outside of really these private settings. And this is something that's bothered me

John Dehlin [00:24:29] for a long, long time.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] Terrell and Fiona Givens do this. You know, Spencer Fluman does this, Richard Bushman does this, and many apologists do this, where there's what they'll say publicly,

John Dehlin [00:24:43] you know, on radio shows or on podcasts or to news reporters or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] And then there's what they'll say when

John Dehlin [00:24:52] someone comes after a fireside to ask him a question, or in these secret little one on one meetings like Spencer Fluman will have, where with people in his office, which I've covered on Mormon

John Dehlin [00:25:03] stories, or what Richard Bushman or Terrell or Fiona Givens will say privately in a little private clustered forum, or, you

John Dehlin [00:25:12] know, what they'll say one on one.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] And it's often very, very different. Now, I understand that politically they have

John Dehlin [00:25:19] to manage their capital, but my understanding

John Dehlin [00:25:22] of the word integrity is that how you talk to people is the same

John Dehlin [00:25:28] no matter where you are, no matter what room you enter in, no matter who you're speaking to.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] And I'm gonna acknowledge that I'm not

John Dehlin [00:25:37] perfect in that regard. And I'm gonna say that I fail in this regard.

John Dehlin [00:25:44] But that's, you know, that's integrity to me. And I've tried to live with integrity, and I'm sure they do, too, but I don't have integrity when, let's just say, you know, Terrell Givens will tell people in private that he thinks the Brethren are, you know, not that smart or not that educated, or that the Brethren are kind of bumbling idiots. You know, whatever phrases he'll use about

John Dehlin [00:26:10] the Quorum of the Twelve and the

John Dehlin [00:26:11] First Presidency privately, and then he won't say that publicly, there's something wrong about that. And if Bushman is going to say that the Brethren have been teaching a father false narrative, and I would argue

John Dehlin [00:26:22] he's saying that they've intentionally been teaching a false or an untrue narrative publicly

John Dehlin [00:26:28] for generations, but he won't say that

John Dehlin [00:26:31] in any of his public statements.

John Dehlin [00:26:33] I think that's problematic. And so, you know, I'm just going

John Dehlin [00:26:39] to say that up front, the fact

John Dehlin [00:26:40] that Bushman will say this in a basement, in a private setting, but he won't go on the record as a

John Dehlin [00:26:47] problem, given the harm the church has caused.

John Dehlin [00:26:49] And then the fact that when he was really called out on this, it almost seemed like he backtracked and waffled and didn't own up to the statement.

John Dehlin [00:27:00] And then provide clarification.

John Dehlin [00:27:01] And if I'm wrong, please correct me,

John Dehlin [00:27:04] but that was problematic to me at the time.

The Dominant Narrative and the Need for Reconstruction

John Dehlin [00:27:07] So now I am going to start sharing. I'm going to be breaking down his statement and asking some of the questions.

John Dehlin [00:27:14] I would be asking Richard Bushman if he would have the integrity or the courage to. To come on Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [00:27:24] So in response to an excerpt from

John Dehlin [00:27:26] his quote where he said, I think the church.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] I think for the church to remain

John Dehlin [00:27:30] strong, it has to reconstruct its narrative. So that's a statement that Richard Bush. Richard Bushman made.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] I would ask Richard Bushman is the goal. Is the most important goal that the church remains strong? Because that's how he frames it in this episode. You never hear him say, you know, I think for the church to do

John Dehlin [00:27:54] what is right, I think for the church to do what is honest, I

John Dehlin [00:27:57] think for the church to have integrity, you know, he doesn't frame it that way. He frames it as, I think for the church to remain strong, it has

John Dehlin [00:28:06] to reconstruct its narrative.

John Dehlin [00:28:08] And that's the way it seems like he thinks. It seems like Richard Bushman puts a

John Dehlin [00:28:14] primacy on the church remaining strong and vital, the church community remaining strong and vital.

John Dehlin [00:28:21] But my question to him is, is the historical lack of informed consent amongst the Mormon people a concern to you, Richard Bushman, or is it just the strength of the Mormon Church?

John Dehlin [00:28:34] Is that your main concern?

John Dehlin [00:28:36] In other words, is it a problem to you that for generations and generations,

John Dehlin [00:28:41] people have given their reputation, their time,

John Dehlin [00:28:43] their money, their lives to the church under a false narrative? Is that a problem for you at all? Is it. Is it a serious moral failing on

John Dehlin [00:28:56] the part of the church and its leadership?

John Dehlin [00:28:58] Or is it just some unfortunate thing that now is jeopardizing the strength and the vitality of the church? And thus the church needs to come

John Dehlin [00:29:09] up with a new narrative? That's the first question I would ask you, Richard Bushman.

John Dehlin [00:29:13] And to me, it is one of

John Dehlin [00:29:15] the most important questions, and it's one of the most important, important driving functions for Mormon Stories podcast. And why I do what I do.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] Okay, next question. When Bushman, When Richard Bushman acknowledges that the dominant narrative is not true. I go on to sort of state, just very explicitly, and this follows from

John Dehlin [00:29:39] the point I just made, does the

John Dehlin [00:29:40] Mormon Church have an ethical obligation to admit that it provided its members an untrue narrative? In your words, an untrue narrative. In other words, it misled its members. We'll put aside the question of whether

John Dehlin [00:29:56] it intentionally misled its members or unintentionally misled its members. I'll address that in just a second.

John Dehlin [00:30:02] But let's just say that they unintentionally misled its members for over a century. Does the Mormon Church and its leadership have an obligation to apologize for that and, and to repent and to make restitution for that? Or in your view, Richard Bushman, does. Does the Mormon Church, the one true Church, or the, you know, the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency, do they get a pass on basic ethics, on the doctrine of repentance, and

John Dehlin [00:30:33] on, on the concept of reconciliation?

John Dehlin [00:30:36] Do they just get a pass? I would ask you to answer that question, Richard Bushman. Why have you never come out in the open to address what I think

John Dehlin [00:30:46] are the moral failings of the Mormon Church and its leadership by teaching us an untrue narrative, by teaching investigators, by

John Dehlin [00:30:54] teaching the world, by perpetuating an untrue

John Dehlin [00:30:58] narrative for generations and generations? My next question for you, Richard Bushman.

John Dehlin [00:31:04] Have you ever admitted this fact publicly, that the Church taught an untrue narrative? Was it only in private, secret settings where you have admitted this fact one on one, in basements with a closed audience? Is this the only time you've admitted that the Church taught an untrue narrative for generations? Or have you admitted this openly and publicly in other areas? I could be wrong. Maybe I've missed it, but if you haven't, I'm wondering why. Why have you not admitted this more openly, more publicly? Is it because you want to remain in the Church's good graces? Is it because you're afraid of what they'll do to you? Is it because of conflicts of interest? And would it show integrity for you

John Dehlin [00:31:55] to be more open and honest and admit this in public versus just in private settings?

John Dehlin [00:32:01] And do you have kind of a

John Dehlin [00:32:02] moral or an ethical obligation to be more open and honest about this? Just a thought. I'm, I'm curious. That's a question that, that I would ask you.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] Next question again on this issue of

John Dehlin [00:32:20] the dominant narrative not being true, on your acknowledgment. This is a question that I would ask you, Richard Bushman, given that, given

John Dehlin [00:32:31] that you know, it appears your position as the Mormon Church leaders did not

John Dehlin [00:32:37] intentionally mislead its membership.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] So when, when you responded to the, you know, the making public of your

John Dehlin [00:32:46] statement that the Mormon Church taught an

John Dehlin [00:32:49] untrue narrative and people, including myself, sort

John Dehlin [00:32:52] of maybe unintentionally gave the impression that you were saying that the Church knowingly misled its members. And I think you've gone on record as saying that the church did not knowingly mislead its members or knowingly deceive its members. Here's my question to you, Richard Bushman.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] Given that, you know, let's just go kind of do a walk down memory,

John Dehlin [00:33:20] memory lane a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:33:23] Given that, you know, the Mormon Church, given that the New York Times published

John Dehlin [00:33:30] an acknowledgement of sort of the Book

John Dehlin [00:33:33] of Abraham papyrus not being translated correctly

John Dehlin [00:33:37] by Joseph Smith in 1912.

John Dehlin [00:33:40] Given the church that, you know, given the fact that the church knew that Joseph Smith's papyra, you know, were a

John Dehlin [00:33:47] mistranslation of the Egyptian on the papyrus,

John Dehlin [00:33:52] the church has known that since 1912. Given the fact that now we know

John Dehlin [00:33:56] through Shannon Caldwell Montez's research that the

John Dehlin [00:33:59] entire first presidency in the quorum of the 12 and all the general authorities were put on notice by B.H. roberts in 1922 that the book of Mormon had serious credibility problems historically, linguistically, geographically, archaeologically, and that B.H. roberts informed them of this as early as 1922.

John Dehlin [00:34:23] And then they send him on a mission and try to erase as much as possible BH Roberts from the memory of the Church.

John Dehlin [00:34:33] Given the fact that Fawn Brody's book no Man Knows My History was received

John Dehlin [00:34:38] by the Church with denunciations of it being a smear job with Fawn Brodie herself being excommunicated from the Church. Given the fact that Mormon church historian and eventual prophet and apostle Joseph Fielding

John Dehlin [00:34:53] smith hid the 1832 account, he cut out the 1832 account of Joseph Smith's first vision, the earliest version that we

John Dehlin [00:35:05] have of Joseph Smith's first vision account.

John Dehlin [00:35:09] The fact that Joseph Fielding Smith cut this out of Joseph Smith's diary and hid it for decades until the Tanners called him out on it and then he secretly put it back in with no explanation. Given the fact that Leonard Arrington's administration

John Dehlin [00:35:25] of opening up the archives to church

John Dehlin [00:35:28] history was canceled and mothballed and Leonard Arrington was dismissed and released unceremoniously without any, you know, General Conference acknowledgement of

John Dehlin [00:35:40] his work as church historian.

John Dehlin [00:35:43] Given the fact that dialogue has existed

John Dehlin [00:35:45] since the 60s, that Sunstone has existed

John Dehlin [00:35:48] since the 70s that you, the Mormon Church denounced forums like Dialogue and Sunstone intentionally to make church employees afraid to participate in them. Given the fact that you excommunicated so many people on or around, you know, September of 1993, you know, given the fact that Richard Bushman's first book, Joseph

John Dehlin [00:36:12] Smith in the Beginnings of Early Mormonism,

John Dehlin [00:36:15] was, was sort of canceled by the church and he had to publish it

John Dehlin [00:36:18] elsewhere, given the excommunication of disfellowshipment of Grant Palmer. Here's my question to you, Richard Bushman.

John Dehlin [00:36:26] Isn't it pretty clear that the Mormon Church leadership have known the, the true and accurate Mormon history for a century or more? They've known about the peep stones in the hat, They've known about the false translation of the Book of Abraham. They've known about Joseph Smith's polygamy. They've known about all these problems.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] They've known about all these problems.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] And they have not, they have not only intentionally not taught the truthful history to the members for generations, and they've silenced and punished the historians who have dared talk openly and punish openly about

John Dehlin [00:37:08] the church history for decades.

John Dehlin [00:37:10] So, so isn't that then sort of an intentional misrepresentation or misleading or deceit

John Dehlin [00:37:20] on the part of the leadership, you

John Dehlin [00:37:23] know, towards the membership, doesn't that make this a conscious misleading of the church membership and of the world by the LDS Church leadership? I think it's a fair question to ask whether this false narrative that you, Richard Bushman, have acknowledged as false was

John Dehlin [00:37:43] intentionally perpetrated by Mormon Church leaders.

John Dehlin [00:37:48] And I actually have more evidence for

John Dehlin [00:37:52] that about that later.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] Okay, my next, my next question for you, Richard Bushman. When you acknowledge that the dominant narrative is not, is, is not true, you went on to say, so the church has to absorb all this new information.

John Dehlin [00:38:09] So that. Those are your words.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] Richard Bushman, the church now.

John Dehlin [00:38:13] So he's saying this in 2016.

John Dehlin [00:38:16] So the church now has to absorb

John Dehlin [00:38:18] all this new information.

John Dehlin [00:38:20] And my question to you, Richard Bushman, is, and I mean this respectfully, but I don't understand what you're saying. The church in 2013 or 14 or 15 or 16 has to absorb the new information. Is this information new, Richard Bushman? Or again, did the Church learn about this in 1912 when the new York

John Dehlin [00:38:41] Times came out with the Book of Abraham article, or in 1922 when B.H. roberts put them all on notice about the problems of the Book of Mormon

John Dehlin [00:38:49] and frankly, with the view of the

John Dehlin [00:38:51] Hebrews, you know, connections, or with Fawn Brody's book, no man Knows My History, or with the Leonard Arrington administration, or with dialect, or with sunstone, or with the September 6th or with signature books.

John Dehlin [00:39:02] Is this new information that the church

John Dehlin [00:39:04] has had to absorb, or has the church known this information all along?

John Dehlin [00:39:09] Richard Bushman, it seems like you're trying to tell people that prophets and apostles

John Dehlin [00:39:15] for generations have not known this troubling information. Joseph F. Smith surely did. Joseph Fielding smith certainly did. B.H.

John Dehlin [00:39:23] roberts certainly did.

John Dehlin [00:39:23] Bruce R. McConkie certainly did. You know, Ezra Todd Benson certainly did.

John Dehlin [00:39:29] Boyd K. Packer certainly did. They knew. They wanted to hide it from us. And Richard Bushman, I think you know this. I think you know this.

John Dehlin [00:39:38] And I think you, you are either

John Dehlin [00:39:39] afraid to talk openly about this for fear of punishment, or you are trying to manage your capital.

John Dehlin [00:39:45] And so you don't feel confident admitting

John Dehlin [00:39:48] this publicly, but your own words seem to acknowledge that you know that the

John Dehlin [00:39:55] brethren have been knowingly misleading us for generations.

John Dehlin [00:40:00] And I'll go on to show how your own words acknowledge this, because you, Richard Bushman, go on to say Elder Packer had this sense of protecting the little people. He felt like the scholars were an

John Dehlin [00:40:15] enemy to this faith.

John Dehlin [00:40:18] For me, as I understand the implications of what you just said, Richard Bushman, you said that Elder Packer was protecting the testimonies of grandmothers by not allowing them to know the church's true and accurate histories. You're saying that, Richard Bushman, that you acknowledge that Elder Packer was hiding the truthful history from the members to protect, in your words, the grandmothers, but that acknowledges intentional misleading or misrepresentation, the withholding of information. As I understand your statement, Richard Bushman, you are acknowledging.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] And of course, Richard Bushman, if you were willing to come on Mormon Stories podcast or, or appear in other unsanctioned

John Dehlin [00:41:06] forums, you would acknowledge that it isn't just Boyd K. Packer, right?

John Dehlin [00:41:12] It was Bruce Armaconki.

John Dehlin [00:41:14] Right?

John Dehlin [00:41:14] It was Ezra Chapp Benson. Right.

John Dehlin [00:41:16] It was Harold B. Lee. Right. It was Joseph Fielding Smith. Right. It was Gordon B. Hinckley. Right. It was Dallin H. Oaks. Right? It's all of them. They've been doing this since the nineteen teens, withholding this information.

John Dehlin [00:41:29] It's not just Elder Packer, and I don't think you're being fully candid when you kind of put it on Elder Packer.

John Dehlin [00:41:39] So I think I've made that point. I hope you guys don't feel like

John Dehlin [00:41:42] I've been super unfair, but I think,

John Dehlin [00:41:46] I think I'm reading your statements accurately

John Dehlin [00:41:49] and I don't think I'm misinterpreting what you said.

Silencing Doubters and Protecting Institutional Faith

John Dehlin [00:41:53] Okay, here are some more questions I

John Dehlin [00:41:54] would have for you, Richard Bushman, in regard to your statement, Elder Packer had this sense of protecting the little people. I would just ask you, Richard Bushman,

John Dehlin [00:42:04] do you regret or do you denounce that the Mormon Church has silenced or

John Dehlin [00:42:10] excommunicated so many honest, incredible Mormon scholars?

John Dehlin [00:42:15] Grant Palmer, Michael Quinn, Paul and Margaret

John Dehlin [00:42:18] Trescano, Lavina Fielding Anderson, and don't call.

John Dehlin [00:42:23] You know, not all of us are scholars, or at least scholars in the realm of Mormon history. But Bill Real, Jeremy Runnels, me Lee

John Dehlin [00:42:31] and Cody Young Carson and Marisa Calderwood.

John Dehlin [00:42:35] So many people have been excommunicated for telling the truth. Fawn Brody, you quote Fawn Brody, Richard Bushman more than any other source, as

John Dehlin [00:42:44] I understand it, more than any other

John Dehlin [00:42:46] historian, she was excommunicated by the leaders

John Dehlin [00:42:49] you sustain as prophets, seers and revelators.

John Dehlin [00:42:53] Do you denounce and regret the silencing and the excommunication of all these people? In other words, people were excommunicated for

John Dehlin [00:43:01] things that you wrote in Rough stone rolling.

John Dehlin [00:43:03] People have been excommunicated for things that you helped support in the Gospel Topics essays. Do you denounce it, Richard Bushman? And if so, why haven't you publicly stated that? Why haven't you publicly called the church out for silencing truth telling historians and

John Dehlin [00:43:22] podcasters and, you know, truth tellers for generations?

John Dehlin [00:43:27] Wouldn't, wouldn't that be an act of courage and maybe even an act of integrity to say that publicly?

John Dehlin [00:43:36] If you, if you believe it?

John Dehlin [00:43:38] And I don't know if you believe it, but I would love the chance to ask you if you believe it. I tend to think you do, but

John Dehlin [00:43:43] I wonder why you wouldn't acknowledge or say that publicly. Okay, next question for Richard Bushman.

John Dehlin [00:43:51] Again, his statement. But the price of protecting the grandmothers was the loss of the grandsons. I, you know, I don't want to be too hard, I don't want to

John Dehlin [00:44:02] be too hard on Richard Bushman for an off the cuff statement that he

John Dehlin [00:44:05] makes, you know, to, to a group

John Dehlin [00:44:08] of people in a basement somewhere.

John Dehlin [00:44:11] But, but, but, but I, I have a problem with this framing of Packer

John Dehlin [00:44:17] wanted to protect the grandmothers.

John Dehlin [00:44:20] But then this is your words, Richard Bushman, that came at the cost of, of the grandsons.

John Dehlin [00:44:26] Those were your words of protecting the

John Dehlin [00:44:29] grand, you know, the church is losing

John Dehlin [00:44:30] the grandsons because it was trying to

John Dehlin [00:44:34] protect, you know, the grandmothers.

John Dehlin [00:44:35] Here's my Question, Richard Bushman, why didn't

John Dehlin [00:44:38] you say to that group that, that you know, the price of, of the dishonesty, the price of the deception, the price of the misleading or the teaching of a, of a false narrative that that price was, you know, the, the, the harm done to not just the grandmothers, but the grandfathers, the children, the parents, the grandchildren, not just the sons, but of all genders? Why aren't you, Richard Bushman, concerned about

John Dehlin [00:45:14] the lack of informed consent about the

John Dehlin [00:45:17] fact that so many generations were misled into devotion to the church by being taught a false narrative that then led them to give their time, their reputation, their money to, to the church under false pretenses? Have you ever expressed Richard Bushman regret for that huge disservice, not just to

John Dehlin [00:45:40] the grandmothers, but to all of us for generations?

John Dehlin [00:45:45] We deserved to join the church or to be indoctrinated into the Church under a truthful narrative that the brethren knew that they had the full set of information, that they're still withholding much of the truth they're withholding in secret private vaults to this day? Didn't we all deserve to be taught the truth by the leaders who had all the documents and had all the information? And if we weren't taught the truth, isn't that a huge disservice and a huge injustice that's been committed on all of us, had perpetrated on all of us, not just the grandmothers And Richard Bushman, do you regret that? Do you denounce that? Do you express remorse for that? I would love to know the answer to that question. And of course, I'm not blaming you for that.

John Dehlin [00:46:36] You've done your part to help make things better.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] But why haven't you ever expressed regret

John Dehlin [00:46:43] that so many people were misled? And then if you add to that

John Dehlin [00:46:47] all the people that were harmed by

John Dehlin [00:46:48] the Church and its truth claims, all

John Dehlin [00:46:51] that harm comes on the back of

John Dehlin [00:46:53] so many generations being misled and indoctrinated into the Church under false pretenses.

John Dehlin [00:46:59] Richard Bushman, I would love some writing, some expression of an acknowledgment by you

John Dehlin [00:47:05] of the harm that's been done by the lack of informed consent and by this deception. My next question to you, Richard Bushman, is in response to your statement.

John Dehlin [00:47:17] So we've just had to change our narrative. I would just ask you, why didn't you frame that as now we've had

John Dehlin [00:47:25] to start telling the truth?

John Dehlin [00:47:28] It's not just about changing the narrative, because truth exists, historical facts exist, historical evidence exists. There is A sense of truth within history.

John Dehlin [00:47:41] Nobody's arguing that Abraham Lincoln existed.

John Dehlin [00:47:44] Nobody's arguing that Thomas Jefferson existed or

John Dehlin [00:47:48] that there's a document called the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] There are historical truths. And the Mormon Church has misled us not just in a narrative that was suboptimal. They have withheld factual information from us

John Dehlin [00:48:07] and have taught us an untrue narrative intentionally so.

John Dehlin [00:48:11] It's not just about the church changing

John Dehlin [00:48:14] its narrative to making it, you know, better.

John Dehlin [00:48:19] It's the church starting to tell the truth.

John Dehlin [00:48:22] And I wish you would frame it that way because the Church has misled us for so long. Regarding, again, the statement, will we leave room to experience Mormonism in different ways? That's the question Bushman is asking church leadership.

John Dehlin [00:48:38] I would just say, why isn't the

John Dehlin [00:48:39] question more something to the effect of

John Dehlin [00:48:43] will the church apologize for teaching a

John Dehlin [00:48:46] false history and misleading its members and

John Dehlin [00:48:48] apologize to the many people it's silenced

John Dehlin [00:48:51] and punished for speaking the truth?

John Dehlin [00:48:53] Will the church repent and atone for

John Dehlin [00:48:55] its mistakes like it teaches its members to do?

John Dehlin [00:48:58] And I'm just wondering, Richard Bushman, why have you never called the Mormon Church to repent and to admit and to

John Dehlin [00:49:05] own up to its deception and to its misleading of the members?

John Dehlin [00:49:11] I think I can guess why, but

John Dehlin [00:49:13] I think that that is an ethical and a consistent and a responsible thing to expect the church to do. A couple more responses to Bushman's statement.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] He wrote, we don't want to break up our community, which is our greatest strength, and the beauty of the church in the name of finding some abstract truth that works better for each one of us. Well, I would just again ask you

John Dehlin [00:49:38] this question, Richard Bushman, is it really

John Dehlin [00:49:41] a matter of abstract truth or is it a matter of evidence and telling the truth? How much of your testimony, Richard Bushman, is based on truth versus on goodness

John Dehlin [00:49:53] or clean living or community?

John Dehlin [00:49:56] I would just say to you that

John Dehlin [00:49:59] most of us, many of us, were

John Dehlin [00:50:00] sold into the church, converted into the

John Dehlin [00:50:03] church, or indoctrinated into the church.

John Dehlin [00:50:06] Not based on goodness, not based on

John Dehlin [00:50:09] community and the healthiness of the community.

John Dehlin [00:50:12] We were indoctrinated into or converted to

John Dehlin [00:50:15] the Mormon Church based on its truth, based on its historical truth claims.

John Dehlin [00:50:22] And so it's a bit of a bait and switch to now say, oh, we can't lose the community. The community is what's really important. It's what's most important. Important the church's goodness is what's most important. That becomes a bait and switch, because that's not what we were sold into,

John Dehlin [00:50:38] and that's not what investigators were sold into.

John Dehlin [00:50:44] We'll go on. Richard Bushman has this really involved statement that he actually published as part of

John Dehlin [00:50:55] a Peggy Fletcher Stack Q and A that was published in the Salt Lake Tribune recently.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] And I'm going to go ahead and

John Dehlin [00:51:01] read a further clarification that Bushman made. These are Bushman's words that are printed in the Salt Lake Tribune.

John Dehlin [00:51:08] He wrote, quote, the Book of Mormon is a problem right now.

John Dehlin [00:51:13] I think that's an understatement.

John Dehlin [00:51:15] He goes on to write, it's so baffling to so many that Joseph was not even looking at the gold plates to translate them. And there's so much in the Book of Mormon that comes out of the 19th century that there's a question of whether or not the text is an exact transcription of Nephi's and Mormon's words or if it has been reshaped by inspiration to be more suitable for us, a kind of an expansion or elucidation

John Dehlin [00:51:43] of the Nephite record for our times.

John Dehlin [00:51:45] I have no idea how that might have worked or whether that's true, but there are just too many scholars now, faithful church scholars, who find 19th century material in that text that remains a bit of a mystery just how it came to be. Well, my question to you is Richard Bushman, as you acknowledge the serious problem

Book of Mormon Historicity and Translation Questions

John Dehlin [00:52:08] we're dealing with in the 21st century,

John Dehlin [00:52:10] which is the Book of Mormon, really is 19th century Bible fan fiction written by Joseph Smith and the horses and the steel and the wheels and the helmets and the, you know, Deutero, Isaiah and the New Testament, plagiarized New Testament, all, all of these anachronisms and plagiarisms, the mound builder myth that have clearly been infused into the Book of Mormon, like from the view of the Hebrews, inspired by the view of the Hebrews

John Dehlin [00:52:38] and other texts like it, the late

John Dehlin [00:52:40] war, obviously the Book of Mormon is this massive, plagiarized, you know, example of

John Dehlin [00:52:48] Joseph Smith's 19th century Bible fan fiction.

John Dehlin [00:52:52] That's something that is just so blatantly obvious to us now in the 21st century. We. Why do you frame it as, quote, a bit of a mystery and that you're not understanding the problem? Is this a viable way to describe what we're dealing with here or are you grossly understanding the problem that we

John Dehlin [00:53:15] have in front of us?

John Dehlin [00:53:15] We were taught that Joseph Smith looked in the Urim and Thummim, the plates were on a desk, that he was using the spectacles to look at at the plates and that the words to the Book of Mormon would appear in the Urim and Thummim, and that Joseph would read those to the scribes. That's what we were all taught. We were taught that this was sort of some amalgamation of Joseph Smith's understanding of the world and his cultural influences that were then mixed with his attempts to translate through a stone and a hat when the plates were in the flesh forest, according to Joseph Smith, but clearly not even in the room, like that is not a credible narrative by any stretch.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] And for you, Richard Bushman, to pretend that somehow, oh, it's a bit of a mystery. How did this translation happen? How could it still be a. You know, how can there still have been golden plates, but the plates weren't in the room? And how can this still have been an ancient record of Native Americans, which I do think Richard Bushman believes? How could it be all of that and have all this massive evidence for fraud and plagiarism in the book and anachronisms? Those two things aren't sustainable. And Richard Bushman, frankly, you're too intelligent to not realize that. So for you to couch it as a bit of a mystery, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but there's something that's not right about the way you're

John Dehlin [00:54:49] couching it in this explanation.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] It's much more than a bit of a problem or a bit of a mystery. It's a massive, massive, fatal blow to the credibility of the Book of Mormon as a historical document. And you know this, and I think we deserve a more further explanation from

John Dehlin [00:55:10] you than calling it a bit of a mystery.

John Dehlin [00:55:13] I think you need to acknowledge the severity of the problem and calling it a bit of a mystery, I just

John Dehlin [00:55:19] don't think does it quite enough justice, with respect. But I'm being honest and I'm being frank.

John Dehlin [00:55:27] I know that you're revered as this

John Dehlin [00:55:30] sort of sacred Mormon historian, but given

John Dehlin [00:55:33] your reputation, given the accolades, giving your fame, given the respect, given your credibility as a historian, Harvard and Columbia, and all the honor and praise and respect that's been heaped upon you, and given the stakes of how many people have been harmed by the false narrative that you now acknowledge, I think you can

John Dehlin [00:55:56] actually answer this question.

John Dehlin [00:55:58] I think you owe it to us to answer this question with a little bit more directness and a little bit

John Dehlin [00:56:05] more information than calling it a bit of a mystery.

John Dehlin [00:56:08] It's a massive problem to the credibility of the book. The book is in jeopardy. It's in Free fall. And anyone who is like, who's speaking

John Dehlin [00:56:19] freely and openly and honestly, I think will acknowledge that. All right, next question for you. With respect, Richard Bushman, you wrote, quote,

John Dehlin [00:56:29] so it's going to be its struggle

John Dehlin [00:56:31] for the next decade, meaning the church's

John Dehlin [00:56:33] struggle, I don't know, two or three

John Dehlin [00:56:35] decades as we go through this process.

John Dehlin [00:56:39] You know, something that I don't think

John Dehlin [00:56:42] I've ever heard you really speak about Richard Bushman, and I'm going to be

John Dehlin [00:56:46] speaking about this later, but do you have remorse or concern about not only the church misleading generations of members and the collateral, but also the collateral damage done to certain subgroups within the church? LGBT people, mixed faith marriages, all the marriages that have been destroyed over discrepancies

John Dehlin [00:57:09] in faith and people learning about the problematic history and then having their spouses divorce them and leave them and take the kids.

John Dehlin [00:57:16] All the parents that have disowned or cut themselves off from their non believing

John Dehlin [00:57:22] children once they lost their faith.

John Dehlin [00:57:24] You know, do you have concerns about that in the collateral damage of. I would love to hear your views on the LGBTQ suicides, on the way that women have been, you know, taught that their potential is far less than it actually is. The way they've been jammed into, you know, square holes as round, you know, round pegs, you know, do you lament, Richard Bushman, the number of divorces, the, you know, the number of people who've experienced anxiety and depression and significant distress over the faith cris, over grappling with having been misled and all the social and familial and collateral damage that has been done. Why Richard Bushman, if I never heard you talk about this publicly, maybe I've missed it.

John Dehlin [00:58:14] If I've missed it, can someone please share with me Richard Bushman's impassioned expression of remorse or regret for all the harm that's been done to all the people who believed the false narrative that Richard Bushman now acknowledges, again, including the thousands and thousands of LGBTQ suicides?

John Dehlin [00:58:35] Where has Richard Bushman ever spoke about this? And Richard Bushman, if you haven't spoke about this, why haven't you and would you be willing to speak about this now?

John Dehlin [00:58:46] All right, that is kind of my,

John Dehlin [00:58:49] I don't want to say smackdown.

John Dehlin [00:58:51] That is my analysis of a combination

John Dehlin [00:58:56] of his faith again statement and his Peggy Fletcher Stack interview that he did recently, trying to address and I believe,

John Dehlin [00:59:05] respond to, you know, rumors about whether he really does still believe in the

John Dehlin [00:59:10] church's truth claims, which again, he does.

John Dehlin [00:59:12] He believes in golden plates. He believes in angels. He believes this church is somehow divine. I don't understand that. I think probably the biggest question I

John Dehlin [00:59:21] received from listeners is, Richard Bushman, you're

John Dehlin [00:59:25] intelligent, you're smart, you've seen all the problems more than anybody. How can you still believe that there really were golden plates, that there really are angels, and that, you know, that the Book of Mormon is an actual, actual ancient record? And I think you've told us in my Mormon Stories podcast interview from 2007, you even said, if I recall, that you don't like to find. Frame it as a, you know, as a. As a.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] As a matter of the church being true. It's more about the church being good.

John Dehlin [00:59:58] And then you talk a lot about

John Dehlin [01:00:00] the community and how important the community

John Dehlin [01:00:02] is and how good, you know, the church, the gospel of the Church of

John Dehlin [01:00:07] Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, how good it makes people become. I think that's where your testimony seems to really lie.

John Dehlin [01:00:16] And I think that's what you've said.

John Dehlin [01:00:18] And because you feel so strongly about those things, then you're willing to hold open the possibility that there are angels or plates.

John Dehlin [01:00:27] That's my interpretation of what you've said,

John Dehlin [01:00:29] but I would love clarification on that.

John Dehlin [01:00:31] But now I'm going to share with you, Richard Bushman, questions from me and. Or from our listeners that I just think are really good questions. And I think we all are going to benefit from hearing these questions because there are a lot of truths in these questions. So, yes, these are questions.

John Dehlin [01:00:51] Yes, Richard Bushman's not here to answer

John Dehlin [01:00:53] them, but check out the wisdom and the truth in the questions that our

John Dehlin [01:00:59] listeners or I have put forward. So questions to you, Richard Bushman, number

John Dehlin [01:01:04] one, you've sometimes framed your Mormon testimony

John Dehlin [01:01:09] as being rooted in the Mormon gospel,

John Dehlin [01:01:12] leading to good behavior or the vibrant Mormon community. This is my question to you, Richard

John Dehlin [01:01:18] Bushman, and I'm kind of summarizing what I just said.

John Dehlin [01:01:20] Are these sound bases for epistemological commitment, especially if other churches or even cults

John Dehlin [01:01:29] can make the very same claims?

John Dehlin [01:01:32] In other words, people who followed Jim Jones said that there was a great

John Dehlin [01:01:36] community they were a part of, people

John Dehlin [01:01:38] who followed the Bhagwan Shriraj niche in Northern Oregon.

John Dehlin [01:01:43] You know, if you watch the documentary

John Dehlin [01:01:44] Wild Wild country, they would say the community they had following Bhagwan Rajneesh was the most beautiful time of their lives. Just because a community is beautiful has nothing to do with the church being true and what it claims to be. And just because, you know, the Mormon way of life makes some people act in moral and ethical ways. You've got 6 billion plus other people, 7 billion other people plus on the earth who many of them are acting in highly ethical or moral ways. So, you know, is it a satisfactory basis of your epistemological foundation to be rooted in the goodness of the Mormon

John Dehlin [01:02:27] Church and the goodness of the Mormon community? I think that's a fair question. The next question, Richard Bushman, Sean, writes,

John Dehlin [01:02:35] I've heard that some general leadership or

John Dehlin [01:02:38] general authorities, and I would even say this is John speaking, apostles and First Presidency members of the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [01:02:45] We have all heard that many of these people in the church consider Rough

John Dehlin [01:02:49] Stone Rolling to be, quote, anti Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:02:53] Is there any merit to this? And if so, has it affected your

John Dehlin [01:02:57] reputation with the church leadership? Thank you, Sean, for asking that question.

John Dehlin [01:03:01] I'm just going to add that I've gone around the world and I've asked now tens of thousands of people who

John Dehlin [01:03:08] have lost their faith in the Mormon

John Dehlin [01:03:10] Church, what was the cause of them leaving their church. Guess what one of the top 10 answers is, maybe even top five. Rough stone rolling. It's like Mormon stories podcast, CBS letter, year of Polygamy with Lindsey Hansen Park

John Dehlin [01:03:28] Bill Real, Radio Free Mormon, you know,

John Dehlin [01:03:32] the gospel topics, essays and Rough Stone Rolling. It's always in the top eight.

John Dehlin [01:03:37] Rough Stone Rolling.

John Dehlin [01:03:39] And so I think it's an interesting question to ask. Is it true what many of us have heard, that many of the members

John Dehlin [01:03:45] of the First Presidency of the Quorum

John Dehlin [01:03:47] of the Twelve view Roughstone Rolling as an anti Mormon book? I would love to answer that question.

John Dehlin [01:03:53] I'm sure you have information that you can share with us on that. Richard Bushman, we would love to know. I'm guessing the answer is yes from my sources.

John Dehlin [01:04:03] Next question. Many of us would ask you, Richard Bushman, what do you define as an apologist?

John Dehlin [01:04:11] And do you, Richard Bushman, consider yourself to be an apologist for the Mormon Church?

John Dehlin [01:04:15] Now, many in the Mormon studies of the Mormon scholarly community take umbrage at even the question.

John Dehlin [01:04:22] I even had someone write that, you know, to call Richard Bushman, you know, an apologist waters down the meaning of that word to where it's literally, you know, kind of meaningless.

John Dehlin [01:04:36] And all I would say is that,

John Dehlin [01:04:38] no, I think that an apologist can be defined as a defender of the faith. And Richard Bushman defends the faith. He absolutely has spent his career defending the faith.

John Dehlin [01:04:50] So by that definition, he is an apologist.

John Dehlin [01:04:53] And so I'm just curious whether he would own up to that or not. If he would like that term or not.

John Dehlin [01:05:01] So that's our next question to you.

John Dehlin [01:05:03] Richard Bushman, the next question to you.

John Dehlin [01:05:07] This is from Patrick.

John Dehlin [01:05:09] This is a combination of a question from Patrick and a question from me.

John Dehlin [01:05:13] Why are so many of the Mormon Church's top historians lawyers and not actual historians?

John Dehlin [01:05:21] We're talking about Marlon Jensen, we're talking about Richard Turley, we're talking about Stephen Snow.

John Dehlin [01:05:29] Leaders of the Church History Department for

John Dehlin [01:05:32] generations have been lawyers, not historians.

John Dehlin [01:05:38] Even Joseph fielding Smith, even B.H. roberts, weren't official historians. We'll give B.H.

John Dehlin [01:05:43] roberts a break. Joseph Ealing Smith, not a historian.

John Dehlin [01:05:46] Why is the church afraid to call actual historians to lead the Church History Department? And even more disturbingly, why do they call lawyers for decades to lead the Church History Department? What does that tell us? What does that mean? Richard Bushman, why didn't they call you

John Dehlin [01:06:06] to be leader of the church History Department? Richard Bushman,

John Dehlin [01:06:12] why don't they call historians? Why did they call lawyers? I think that speaks volumes, and I

John Dehlin [01:06:19] would love to get your take on that. Richard Bushman, next question for Richard Bushman.

John Dehlin [01:06:25] What has been the impact of the Gospel Topics essays on member disaffection? Has it accelerated or decelerated the disaffection? And how is inoculation working? I can tell you my impression.

John Dehlin [01:06:38] My impression is the Gospel Topics essays

John Dehlin [01:06:42] have been the impetus to tens of thousands of people starting their faith crisis

John Dehlin [01:06:47] and ultimately leaving the church.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] I think the Gospel Topics essays have

John Dehlin [01:06:51] backfired for the church.

John Dehlin [01:06:54] The church was forced to release them for legal reasons alone so that people couldn't instigate more fraud cases against the

John Dehlin [01:07:02] Mormon Church for knowingly deceiving people, which it was doing for generations and which Richard Bushman even admitted.

John Dehlin [01:07:09] But the Gospel Topic says, let's make no mistake, they were released because the church was embarrassed and forced to release

John Dehlin [01:07:15] them for legal reasons and for ethical

John Dehlin [01:07:18] and moral reasons that we and many

John Dehlin [01:07:20] others forced them back them into a corner to release them.

John Dehlin [01:07:24] What's the verdict? It seems like the verdict is the

John Dehlin [01:07:27] Gospel Topics essays have been a disaster

John Dehlin [01:07:29] for people remaining in the church, as has Rough Stone Rolling I. And we would love to hear Richard Bushman's take on whether that's his impression as well. And just generally speaking, whether the church's attempt to inoculate members now through the

John Dehlin [01:07:46] Joseph Smith Papers Project, through the Gospel Topics essays, through Rough Stone Rolling, through

John Dehlin [01:07:52] the book Saints, which is a really

John Dehlin [01:07:55] poor example of scholarship, whether this inoculation has been working or not, from the standpoint of Richard Bushman, I Would love to have him answer that question. Next question for Richard Bushman

Redefining Translation and Straining Language

John Dehlin [01:08:08] is changing the narrative to the Book of Mormon

John Dehlin [01:08:12] being Revelation instead of translation or pseudepigrapha or the Book of Abraham or the Book of Mormon being pseudepigrapha, or basically text written by someone claiming to be the original author. So me writing as Paul when I'm not Paul, me writing as Nephi when I'm not Nephi, if we're going to

John Dehlin [01:08:33] retreat to calling parts of the Book

John Dehlin [01:08:36] of Mormon or the Book of Abraham pseudepigrapha, or retreat from calling the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham

John Dehlin [01:08:44] translations and instead call them Revelations or, you know, the Catalyst theory inspirations, isn't

John Dehlin [01:08:53] that a bait and switch?

John Dehlin [01:08:55] Aren't we basically taking Joseph Smith's own

John Dehlin [01:08:58] claims of being a translator?

John Dehlin [01:09:00] Aren't we basically taking the predominant narrative that all of us were either indoctrinated into or converts were sold into, that Joseph translated from golden plates to the

John Dehlin [01:09:13] Book of Mormon translated from Egyptian papyrus into the Book of Abraham?

John Dehlin [01:09:17] Isn't now reframing that and calling it

John Dehlin [01:09:20] Revelation or pseudepigrapha or inspiration?

John Dehlin [01:09:24] Isn't that a massive bait and switch that requires the church to apologize and

John Dehlin [01:09:29] make restitution for misleading people for so long? And aren't you Richard Bushman and Spencer Fluman and Patrick Mason and all the members of the Maxwell Institute and all

John Dehlin [01:09:39] the people of Fairmormon, aren't you engaging in the gaslighting and in the deceiving of members today by trying to finesse us into this change of a bait

John Dehlin [01:09:53] and switch without there ever being an

John Dehlin [01:09:56] apology and a reconciliation? Aren't you aiding and abetting in the bait and switch and in the deception and the gaslighting of past members who have left their faith by using your

John Dehlin [01:10:09] scholarship, your academics, your books, your articles

John Dehlin [01:10:13] to sort of like. And your academic credibility to massage members

John Dehlin [01:10:17] into a pseudepigrapha, you know, inspired, you

John Dehlin [01:10:23] know, revelation, new framing for these texts,

John Dehlin [01:10:27] aren't you aiding and abetting that bait and switch in that deception?

John Dehlin [01:10:33] I fear that you are, and I would just love to hear your answer to that.

John Dehlin [01:10:36] How do you answer that?

John Dehlin [01:10:39] You know, shouldn't apologists call on the

John Dehlin [01:10:42] church to make things right, to apologize and to make restitution or at least

John Dehlin [01:10:47] openly acknowledge publicly the deception and the misteachings before they try and give us

John Dehlin [01:10:54] a new spin and a new approach for looking at Scripture?

John Dehlin [01:11:00] This is one of the main problems

John Dehlin [01:11:02] I have had and continue to have with, with thoughtful, kind, intelligent Mormon Apologists. Next question for Richard Bushman

John Dehlin [01:11:13] is straining

John Dehlin [01:11:14] to redefine the word translation. And just to give a little background, when I was at Utah State University, there was a whole one or two

John Dehlin [01:11:22] day conference where Rosalind Welch and, and

John Dehlin [01:11:26] Richard Bushman and Philip Barlow and, and Terrell Givens and all of these, you know, Mark, I forget his name.

John Dehlin [01:11:35] All of these scholars spending two days at Utah State University trying to redefine what the word translation means so that we don't have to reach kind of Occam's Razor's obvious conclusion, which is the

John Dehlin [01:11:52] Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. You know, we're fan fiction or, you know, works of 19th century fiction or

John Dehlin [01:11:59] frauds so that we don't have to go down that route. What we have to do is redefine what the word translation means and then spend, you know, days or years or tomes of apologetics redefining the word translation. Isn't that whole endeavor? Isn't that whole act an act of academic or intellectual desperation fueled by the

John Dehlin [01:12:26] need for the narrative to stay credible? I think that's a fair question, and

John Dehlin [01:12:31] I would love for Mormon scholars to address that question directly instead of just gaslighting us and trying to use this bait and switch finesse to a new

John Dehlin [01:12:42] narrative that isn't what we were taught,

John Dehlin [01:12:44] isn't what prophets, seers and revelators taught for centuries. And is it what Joseph Smith himself claimed? I think it's a fundamental act of

John Dehlin [01:12:53] deception to engage in that sort of behavior on the part of apologists who

John Dehlin [01:13:00] I love and respect. I just disagree with what you're doing. You will disagree with what I'm doing. Anybody who thinks that this podcast episode is unkind or unfair. Hey, listen, I guarantee you that Terrell

John Dehlin [01:13:13] and Fiona Givens, Richard Bushman, Patrick Mason,

John Dehlin [01:13:15] Spencer Fluman, all of those apologists have very sharp things to say about me, privately or publicly, and they will, and they have, and they do. And I would just say, can I not speak publicly directly back to them? Is that mean or unspirited, especially given

John Dehlin [01:13:34] the number of people who've been harmed,

John Dehlin [01:13:36] the amount of time and money that's been spent dedicated to the church under a false and fraudulent narrative? Is it too much for these people, funded, bankrolled, whose salaries and pensions are literally funded either directly or indirectly through the church? Is it too much for them to ask these to answer? Is it too much to ask for these apologists funded by the church to receive and to answer some of these

John Dehlin [01:14:05] more difficult questions, or are they going

John Dehlin [01:14:07] to continue to hide behind their non peer reviewed pseudo academic articles and books and podcasts and forums where they don't

John Dehlin [01:14:19] have to actually take hard questions.

John Dehlin [01:14:21] Am I being mean and unfair or are they not standing up and having

John Dehlin [01:14:27] integrity and facing the hard questions, which I believe is in the spirit of true scholarship, frankly.

Joseph Smith's Polygamy and Difficult Historical Questions

John Dehlin [01:14:36] Okay, some of the more tough questions

John Dehlin [01:14:38] now we haven't gotten to the tough questions. Here they go.

John Dehlin [01:14:41] Carrie asks Richard Bushman, do you believe,

John Dehlin [01:14:44] as stated in doctrine and covenants132 that

John Dehlin [01:14:48] polygamy will be practiced in the celestial kingdom? I am going to guess that Richard

John Dehlin [01:14:53] Bushman would sort of say we don't really know everything about that.

John Dehlin [01:14:57] There's a lot of uncertainty. You know, that's fine, but it's in

John Dehlin [01:15:02] doctrine and covenants 132. So Richard Bushman, can you please would

John Dehlin [01:15:06] you ever in any forum just tell us what are your personal beliefs? Do you believe section 132 of the doctrine and Covenants that that polygamy is part of the new everlasting covenant and

John Dehlin [01:15:20] like past Mormon prophets and apostles have

John Dehlin [01:15:22] taught, polygamy will be a requirement for

John Dehlin [01:15:25] exaltation in the celestial kingdom, in the hereafter.

John Dehlin [01:15:28] What do you believe, Richard Bushman? Kerry wants to know. I want to know.

John Dehlin [01:15:31] A lot of my listeners want to know.

John Dehlin [01:15:33] Cheryl wants to know. Richard Bushman, do you believe Joseph Smith was a person of integrity?

John Dehlin [01:15:39] In other words, do you believe Joseph Smith was an honest person?

John Dehlin [01:15:43] I think I remember hearing you say

John Dehlin [01:15:45] once, Richard Bushman, that once you started

John Dehlin [01:15:47] digging in to the evidence about Joseph Smith, you asked yourself whether or not you would emerge from from your studying

John Dehlin [01:15:54] of Joseph Smith liking Joseph Smith because you encountered so many problems reading about him.

John Dehlin [01:16:00] Now I know that you've emerged loving

John Dehlin [01:16:02] Joseph Smith and believing in Joseph Smith still as a prophet.

John Dehlin [01:16:05] But here's our question for you, Richard Bushman, how honest was Joseph Smith? Was he a person of integrity or at his core, was he sometimes a fraud, a charlatan? Was he a fraud or charlatan? What do you think, Richard Bushman?

John Dehlin [01:16:23] Where do you come down on Joseph Smith's integrity? Next question for Richard Bushman.

John Dehlin [01:16:28] This is from my dear friend Alan Mount. Love you, Alan Mount. Mary on a Marriage on a Tightrope. Excellent podcast. Alan asks Richard Bushman, would you allow your 16 year old granddaughter to be alone with Joseph Smith for two hours? I think that's a great question. Alan Mount and Richard Bushman, I think that's a great question. Would you let your granddaughter be alone with Joseph Smith for hours or days? If yes, I'D love to understand how you would justify that if no, I would love to understand how he's still a prophet in your eyes and you

John Dehlin [01:17:02] wouldn't even trust him with your own granddaughter.

John Dehlin [01:17:05] Follow up question, this one is from Bill Real. Love you Bill Real. Richard Bushman, would you allow your 15 year old granddaughter to work inside Joseph Smith's home as a nanny or as a maid or as a live in servant?

John Dehlin [01:17:20] Would you Richard Richard Bushman, would you

John Dehlin [01:17:22] allow your granddaughter to work in the Joseph Smith home if you could teleport yourself back to the 1830s? Danny Alger anyone? I would love to hear your answer

John Dehlin [01:17:35] to that question Richard Bushman directly.

John Dehlin [01:17:38] Next question.

John Dehlin [01:17:39] Richard Bushman by Mark, by your estimation, how many women did Joseph Smith have

John Dehlin [01:17:44] sex with without Emma's consent? Best guess, we all know inexplicably that in defiance of the code in the

John Dehlin [01:17:55] revelation I say in air quotes of Doctrine and Covenants 132 Emma Smith was

John Dehlin [01:17:59] like the 20 something wife sealed to Joseph Smith. In other words, Joseph Smith defied DNC132 or his own revelation was sealed to 20 plus other women before Emma was even sealed to him and before Emma even knew about polygamy. So he lied and misled Emma. Okay, that we all know and I

John Dehlin [01:18:22] think Richard Bushman, you would even acknowledge that.

John Dehlin [01:18:25] A follow on question to that Richard Bushman would be how many women did Joseph Smith have sex with without Emma's knowledge or consent? I think you know, I think you have a good idea Richard Bushman as to how many of those women Joseph Smith had sex with hiding from his

John Dehlin [01:18:40] wife Emma, defying DNC 132, would you

John Dehlin [01:18:44] be willing to answer that question directly? It's actually an empirical question. You probably don't have evidence but you have a good sense for it and I think it'd be a really valuable

John Dehlin [01:18:53] question for you Richard Bushman to answer.

John Dehlin [01:18:56] Next question from Annie.

John Dehlin [01:18:57] Richard Bushman, by your estimation, were any

John Dehlin [01:19:00] of Joseph Smith's extramarital relationships adulterous and

John Dehlin [01:19:05] not sanctioned by God?

John Dehlin [01:19:07] If so, which ones? This is a great question. It's a great question from a woman. We know that Fanny Alger, when Joseph Smith was caught having sex with Fanny Alger in a barn, Oliver Cowdery, a member of the First Presidency, one of the three witnesses, alleged scribe to the Book of Mormon, he called that a dirty, filthy, nasty affair which Joseph Smith excommunicated him for. So we know that at least one of those relationships by many accounts was an affair and not a polygamous marriage

John Dehlin [01:19:40] or you know, an eternal marriage as it's called by, by Brian Hales and others.

John Dehlin [01:19:45] So Richard Bushman, I think this is a wonderful question.

John Dehlin [01:19:48] We would love to hear from you

John Dehlin [01:19:50] on how were any of Joseph Smith's

John Dehlin [01:19:53] extramarital relationships not eternal marriages, but instead

John Dehlin [01:19:57] just plain old adultery?

John Dehlin [01:20:00] Great question, Annie. Next question from Eric.

John Dehlin [01:20:04] Does Richard Bushman realize that his softening

John Dehlin [01:20:07] of hard truths and then Eric writes this is a nice way of saying

John Dehlin [01:20:12] his obscuring the reality that the exclusive truth claims and resultant authority of church leadership is unearned and not reality based? Eric asks, does Richard Bushman realize that this hurts people like Eric and his ex wife and all their children?

John Dehlin [01:20:35] In other words, Richard Bushman, and this is something I've already mentioned in this podcast.

John Dehlin [01:20:40] Do you, Richard Bushman, realize that the false narrative that the church that you claim to believe in, that the prophets, seers and revelators that you, Richard Bushman, sustainable? Do you realize that the false narrative that they taught generations has harmed countless men, women and children and families for generations and that your apologetics, your apologetics of softening and making these very unpleasant historical truths, making them more palatable for many people, contributes to the ongoing damage and harm?

John Dehlin [01:21:17] Richard Bushman, do you realize that I

John Dehlin [01:21:20] would love to hear your answer to that. Or do you think that that's an unfair charge by Eric and by tens of thousands of others who were frustrated by the apologetic soft pedaling that they

John Dehlin [01:21:32] read in Rough Stone Rolling? I think that's a great question.

John Dehlin [01:21:37] All right, next question. And this one is quite in depth and so I'll apologize ahead of time

John Dehlin [01:21:46] that this one's hard to read. Here's the question by ryan.

John Dehlin [01:21:51] I've heard Mr. Bushman say he believes Joseph Smith's glass looking and peepstone use. Was Joseph Smith just practicing his powers,

John Dehlin [01:22:01] almost auditioning for his role as prophet? Ryan goes on to write as if

John Dehlin [01:22:05] glass licking and scamming people in using peep stones to find treasure was a perfectly fine moral thing and that the magic of it was real? Ryan asks, would Richard say that about all the others who dabbled in peep

John Dehlin [01:22:21] stones and folk magic?

John Dehlin [01:22:23] Does he also use this positive sounding rhetoric on other magical items like crystal balls and magic wands and dousing rods and tarot cards? How does one tell the difference between Joseph's peep stone treasure digging being real magic and the other people doing the same thing, but it being just a trick or fraud or scams? Eric Ryan asks. I guess I just wonder if his logic is biased towards Joseph Smith or Ryan asks Is a trick just a trick? Is a scam, just a scam? Were most people that used a seer stone faking it to get gain? Was Joseph Smith faking it to get gain when he admitted himself to people close to the situation that he never really could see anything in the stone in the hat as it related to the treasure digging? Was it just a scam to get gain?

John Dehlin [01:23:24] And why hasn't Richard Bushman ever acknowledged that that's probably what was going on?

John Dehlin [01:23:30] Ryan goes on to write, was Joseph the only one actually seeing the rock light up in a hat even though

John Dehlin [01:23:39] he found no treasure in it? It seems rational to say all peepstones were trickery or foolery. I think Ryan is asking a great question, Richard Bushman, and I would love to hear your answers to that next question.

Most Troubling Historical Findings and Church Leadership

John Dehlin [01:23:56] Another listener wrote, I have heard that many of Richard Bushman's own family members have left the church.

John Dehlin [01:24:03] Oh, or no longer believe in the church.

John Dehlin [01:24:06] I will say, incidentally, I've heard the same thing about most of the apologists,

John Dehlin [01:24:13] the prominent Mormon apologists that you are aware of in 2021. You just, you know, as long as they have adult children or adult grandchildren, you have large numbers of their children or grandchildren who have left the church. Mormon apologists, Mormon apostles, Mormon general authorities, etc. Etc.

John Dehlin [01:24:32] So given that

John Dehlin [01:24:35] many of Richard Bushman's own children or grandchildren no longer believe

John Dehlin [01:24:40] in the church, and given that so many LDS Church members continue to leave the church in droves in spite of

John Dehlin [01:24:49] Richard Bushman's best efforts to defend the

John Dehlin [01:24:52] faith, who Richard Bushman do you see as responsible for this situation? Is it God? Is it the prophets, seers and revelators who you sustain? Is it the people that didn't, you know, read the right books? You know, is it the bishops and the stake presidents who excommunicated the scholars? Is it the apologists that misled people for generations? Where Richard Bushman do you pin the accountability for this huge catastrophic disaster, which is the unraveling and the hemorrhaging and the fall of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints in the 21st century?

John Dehlin [01:25:33] And if you reconcile, if you believe, Richard Bushman, that this is God's one true church on the earth, with whom the church with whom the Lord is well pleased, which the Doctrine and Covenant states? How do you reconcile that with God? God's fairness, God's power, God's compassion? How do you make sense of all that? You know, we would love to hear some sort of explanation.

John Dehlin [01:25:56] I think that's a fair question that

John Dehlin [01:25:59] people would like to know?

John Dehlin [01:26:01] All right, Richard Bushman, a few other questions and then I'll be done.

John Dehlin [01:26:05] Richard Bushman, what are the most troubling things you have learned or discovered as a historian that would be damaging to member faith? Or, more candidly, that in the spirit of full disclosure or informed consent, what are the most troubling things you, Richard Bushman, have discovered as a historian that members deserve to know? Or are you keeping those to yourself, or hiding them, or spinning them, or not acknowledging them, or you keeping them to yourself or only sharing them in basements, in private settings, or on one

John Dehlin [01:26:46] on one settings with select people?

John Dehlin [01:26:48] Are you, Richard Bushman, sharing all the evidence that you know that would be important and relevant to allow an individual to engage in the basic principles of informed consent and know what it is

John Dehlin [01:27:03] that they are giving or will give their lives and 10% of their income

John Dehlin [01:27:08] to in perpetuity, not just for the rest of their lives, but for eternity? Let us know.

John Dehlin [01:27:14] Richard Bushman, what information have you not yet shared with us that we deserve to know?

John Dehlin [01:27:20] Next question to what extent, Richard Bushman,

John Dehlin [01:27:24] does the Mormon Church leadership ever embarrass you?

John Dehlin [01:27:27] Are you embarrassed by Boyd K. Packer?

John Dehlin [01:27:30] Are you embarrassed by the behavior of Joseph Fielding Smith?

John Dehlin [01:27:33] Are you embarrassed by the behavior of Joseph Smith? Are you embarrassed by the way that

John Dehlin [01:27:38] the church excommunicated and punished its scholars

John Dehlin [01:27:41] and silenced them for generations? Are you embarrassed today at how Dallin H. Oaks and Russell M. Nelson continue to cause severe harm to the LGBT community, to women, to falsely mislead members about their own prophetic power and their own access to divine revelation? Are you embarrassed, Richard Bushman, by modern

John Dehlin [01:28:06] Mormon Church leadership and frankly, either their

John Dehlin [01:28:10] lack of knowledge about important things or their lack of character or integrity about doing what is right and letting the consequences follow? Elder Oaks statement that we do not either seek nor offer apologies? Does that embarrass you, Richard Bushman, when Elder Dallin H. Oaks says that the church doesn't apologize, that the church won't follow its own teachings of repentance, Richard

John Dehlin [01:28:38] Bushman, does that embarrass you?

John Dehlin [01:28:41] If so, would you ever have the

John Dehlin [01:28:43] courage or the integrity to state that

John Dehlin [01:28:46] publicly before you pass on? Would you be willing to let us know? Or if you or if you're not embarrassed by them, if you think they're awesome? And if you think their historical behavior over the past 100 to 200 years has been amazing and high examples of

John Dehlin [01:29:02] character and integrity, will you just say

John Dehlin [01:29:04] that so we can at least know where you stand because few people know

John Dehlin [01:29:07] where the bodies are buried as much as you. Richard Bushman,

John Dehlin [01:29:12] next question. So I would ask you, this is

John Dehlin [01:29:19] sort of a combination of a question for me, but from also many other listeners.

John Dehlin [01:29:23] Richard Bushman, you were asked by Peggy

John Dehlin [01:29:26] Fletcher Stack in your article in the

John Dehlin [01:29:28] Salt Lake Tribune, how have you seen the church evolve over the decades on race, racism, feminism or LGBTQ issues? And now I'd like to read to

John Dehlin [01:29:39] you Richard Bushman's statement, and I'm going

John Dehlin [01:29:43] to preface it by saying, he doesn't say, the church has harmed way too many people. He doesn't say, I lament and regret all the LGBTQ suicides and all the depression and anxiety and the lives lost by LGBTQ members engaging in conversion therapy or mixed orientation marriages or celibacy at the recommendation of the church and its top leadership. You don't hear Richard Bushman lament all the women who did not meet their potential because they were taught to not

John Dehlin [01:30:15] get all the education that they could

John Dehlin [01:30:17] and instead to just fill the role

John Dehlin [01:30:19] of being a mommy.

John Dehlin [01:30:21] And all the racism and all the racist teachings. You don't hear Richard Bushman talk about how he laments all the harm that's been done. This is what Richard Bushman says in

John Dehlin [01:30:33] answer to Peggy Fletcher Stack's question.

John Dehlin [01:30:36] I subsume this category into what I call cosmopolitanism, which is one of the most powerful influences in the church right now. By cosmopolitanism, I mean that we're suddenly able to see ourselves as others see us. And we can picture ourselves as one religion among a number of religions and a number of viewpoints. We can see how Mormonism looks from a global view. And as soon as we do that, then the way we treat women becomes problematic in terms of the way the educated world in general is looking upon women and race and LGBTQ issues and so on. We have to find ways of couching our message so that it makes sense to the world at large. At the same time, we need to hold onto our roots in a parochial way. I mean that in a positive sense. We all, even the most cosmopolitan people, need a home base.

John Dehlin [01:31:39] In Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:31:40] We'll keep trying to find words that will allow us to express what we believe in a way that's acceptable. We want to sound like we're reasonable souls. I see the merits of that, but that relieves us of the responsibility of the, of defending the things that are uniquely ours, like angels and gold plates that should be protected. So that's Richard Bushman's response to the Church's centuries long history of racism. And sexism and homophobia, and Richard Bushman's own acknowledged history of teaching the church members and investigators a false narrative, unknowingly

John Dehlin [01:32:25] teaching them a false narrative.

John Dehlin [01:32:27] The way Richard Bushman wants to frame it in is number one, within the context of this notion of cosmopolitanism, that it's just sort of like progressivism. And now that the church is being confronted with cosmopolitanism and progressivism, now it's seeing how the church sees them, and now it's having to learn to. What does he say? Find new words that allow the church to express what it believes in a way that's acceptable. Here's my question to you, Richard Bushman. What does it mean to be a prophet, seer and revelator? What does it mean when you're sustaining them as prophets, seers and revelators, as men who literally talk to God and know the mind and the will of God in some sort of privileged way that the rest of us plebeian members don't know? What does that mean when you.

John Dehlin [01:33:17] When you sustain them?

John Dehlin [01:33:19] What value is it? What value do they offer us if they're always two or three generations behind the times on the most prevalent and important civil rights issues, the Equal Rights Amendment, the civil rights movement, feminism, trans rights, LGBT rights, you know, voting rights, whatever it is, you know, what does it mean to be a prophet, seer, and revelator? And when you frame it as them now, seeing how the world sees us in a cosmopolitan lens, and now we've got to find the right words, is that really how you're going to frame it versus just saying, yeah, we need to look again at what. What it means to be a prophet, seer and revelator.

John Dehlin [01:34:02] They've oversold their power. They've oversold their authority to us. They've asked for too much power, and we've given them way too much power. And we need to reign that sucker, we need to reign that puppy way back in and call it as we see it and say they're just as right to get it. They're just as likely to get it catastrophically wrong as they are to get it right. And if that's the case, and if the stakes are so high, LGBTQ suicides, divorces, failed families, racism, all of that stuff. If the stakes are that high, then we need to, like, call an emergency meeting where we say, hey, everybody, there's a huge problem.

John Dehlin [01:34:46] Way too much collateral damage and pain. We need to call, like, a Vatican II within Mormonism and readjust everyone's expectation to stop the harm and to start the stop the fraud and to stop the deception, isn't that the way we should be framing this, Richard Bushman, instead of framing it in terms of cosmopolitanism and the need to find new words to express what we believe in a way that. What do you say? In a way that's acceptable. Acceptable. That's what God does is he is. He tells the human race to object to all the damage the Mormon Church has done so that then prophets learn to use new words so that now that the world will find the church acceptable.

John Dehlin [01:35:36] I just don't understand it. Richard Bushman, can you please help us understand your explanations here better? Because I'm just going to say it. I am on the ground floor of this. I am seeing the divorces, I am

John Dehlin [01:35:52] seeing the death by suicide.

John Dehlin [01:35:54] I am seeing the anxiety and the depression and all the problems. As someone who got a PhD in psychology, as someone who meets with these people daily, it's a bigger problem than just learning to come up with a new narrative that helps the world understand us better by using the right words. Because oh my gosh, cosmopolitanism, there's a serious problem. And I wish you, Richard Bushman, would use your power, use your privilege, use your influence to call the church on it and to help make more accelerated change than the decades long pace, the super slow, tedious, archaic, nonogenarian pace that we're on right now that you acknowledge is going to take generations to fix.

John Dehlin [01:36:45] So to go on, Richard Bushman, do you ever feel frustrated that in your role as a Mormon historian you are not able to speak plainly about the harm that the Church causes to so many marginalized communities? And as a follow up to that, do you ever feel like your comfort as a church member is largely a function of your privilege as a white straight man who's multi generational in the church and who has this huge reputation built on being the guy who stands up for Joseph Smith, who gets to go to the special firesides, who gets to go to the special meetings, who gets to sit in that privileged endowed chair at Claremont or at BYU and the Maxwell Institute?

John Dehlin [01:37:34] All of these drippings of privilege. Is it possible that those drippings of privilege are what allow you to stay in your position of comfort and to not speak more publicly and openly and candidly about the harm that's being caused? Next question. I'm almost done, I promise.

John Dehlin [01:37:56] I think we're going to beat two hours here.

John Dehlin [01:37:58] Next question for Richard Bushman.

John Dehlin [01:38:00] This comes from Sam.

John Dehlin [01:38:02] What historical evidence, Richard Bushman, and I would add, what harmful acts by Mormon Church prophets, seers and revelators would definitely refute the foundational truth claims of the LDS Church for you. In other words, what evidence or action would be beyond apologetics, beyond excuses? Or in other words, Richard Bushman, can you please answer this question? What would it take to get you to see that the Mormon Church isn't what it claims to be? To see that Joseph Smith was a fraud and a charlatan? To see that the Book of Mormon is Nothing more than 19th century fan or New Testament Bible fan fiction written by Joseph Smith?

John Dehlin [01:38:49] What would it take? What would it take? Would we need a photograph or a video anachronistically of Joseph Smith telling Oliver that it was a fraud? What would it take? Richard Bushman Would it take other documents being released from church archives?

John Dehlin [01:39:05] So many of us would want to know what is your standard? I'm sure you don't think Richard Bushman the Scientology is true. I'm sure you don't think that Job's witnesses are true. I'm sure you don't think Catholicism is true. I'm sure there are thousands of other churches you would say are not true churches, are not the restored gospel. And you apply a very reasonable, rational standard to all those thousands of false churches. What would it take for you to apply the same standard to the Church

John Dehlin [01:39:34] of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

John Dehlin [01:39:36] I'd love to hear it. What would it take? All right, we're almost done. Richard Bushman if this is God's one

Institutional Decline, Legacy, and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [01:39:47] and only true church on the face of the earth, as the Doctrine and

John Dehlin [01:39:50] Covenants itself claims, why is it in

John Dehlin [01:39:53] free fall in 2021?

John Dehlin [01:39:54] Why is it hemorrhaging? Why is it losing like 80% of its youth in 2021? Why is it in the United States half of all the people raised Mormon have now left the church? Half. Why is the church why is the church collapsing in Europe, collapsing in Asia, in collapsing in Latin America, collapsing in Canada, in the United States? Why is the church selling off its chapels and stake centers in droves? Why is the church merging wards and stakes and closing stakes and missions and wards and branches all throughout the world in 2021? Wasn't this supposed to be the stone that was cut out of the mountain without hands to roll down the mountain and consume all nations?

John Dehlin [01:40:43] Isn't that what we were all taught? Isn't this the noble and great work that was supposed to penetrate every climb and sweep every nation and be spoken on every tongue? Why is the one true church in free fall? And I would add, in spite of your best efforts, in spite of all the paid faculty at BYU that defend the church, in spite of all the legions of apologists at the Maxwell Institute, at Fair, at Farms, in spite of all that, in spite of the hundreds of billions of dollars that the church has and has spent, why is the Mormon church the one true church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, led by God's one true prophet with exclusive priesthood authority?

John Dehlin [01:41:25] Why is that church in free fall in 2021? What does that mean? Even if it's true, what does that say about God? What does it say about revelation? What does it say about your church? Could you please answer that question?

John Dehlin [01:41:38] We would love to know. Next question. To what extent Richard Bushman, and if people get mad at me for asking this question, I think it's a fair question. Anyone who works in the public realm acknowledges their biases. My question to Richard Bushman is to what extent do social pressures, your status,

John Dehlin [01:41:59] Richard Bushman, your reputation, your relationships, to

John Dehlin [01:42:03] what extent do those social pressures keep you blinded to the church and bias your ultimate, ultimate conclusions about the church's truthfulness? I think that's a fair question. People hate me for asking it.

John Dehlin [01:42:16] I think that's a fair question to ask.

John Dehlin [01:42:20] And that is going to be the

John Dehlin [01:42:21] question that I end on.

John Dehlin [01:42:24] So that is the summary of the questions I would ask Richard Bushman. Richard Bushman, I have invited you back on Mormon Stories podcast in the past. You've declined. I extend that offer to you today. I will treat you lovingly and fairly, just like I treated Jim Bennett, who had the courage to come on Mormon Stories, just like I have treated others,

John Dehlin [01:42:48] believers who have come on Mormon Stories,

John Dehlin [01:42:50] just like I treated you, just like I treated Terrell and Fiona Givens. I will treat you kindly. I will treat you respectfully.

John Dehlin [01:42:59] I invite you to come back on Mormon Stories.

John Dehlin [01:43:01] And if you won't come on Mormon Stories, Richard Bushman, will you please answer some or all of these questions in another forum? Whatever research you're doing now on the golden plates or on some Joseph Smith papers project thing, or some minutia, none of that is important in my view and to the tens of thousands, and I would say now, hundreds of thousands of people who gave their lives 10% of their income, whose marriages have been destroyed. To all those tens or hundreds of thousands of people, I would say these questions I've asked you today are way more important than any other historical pursuit

John Dehlin [01:43:41] that you're going to pursue for the remainder of your life.

John Dehlin [01:43:44] So will you just spend a week, a week, a month answering some or

John Dehlin [01:43:50] all of these questions that I've asked you.

John Dehlin [01:43:52] Do it on Radio Free Mormon. Do it on Bill Real's podcast. Do it on Faith, Faith Again podcast. Do it at Maxwell Institute. Do it as a monologue. Do it with Peggy Fletcher Stack in the Salt Lake Tribune. I don't care where you do it,

John Dehlin [01:44:07] Richard Bushman, but as far as I

John Dehlin [01:44:09] know, you're still alive. You still got all your faculties and you still got a lot to contribute. Will you please, will you please show us the hundreds of thousands of people that have been misled and deceived by the church, and by the way, all the scholars that you respect that have been excommunicated, like Von Brody, like Michael Quinn, like Grant Palmer, all the scholars that have been punished and marginalized and excommunicated for them, for us. Richard Bushman, will you please take the

John Dehlin [01:44:40] time to answer some or all of these questions? It would mean so much to me,

John Dehlin [01:44:49] and if you don't do it with me, do it somewhere else.

John Dehlin [01:44:52] But please do it.

John Dehlin [01:44:54] Final thing I'll just say is these questions that I'm asking Richard Bushman, I want to ask Patrick Mason, I want to ask Spencer Fluman, I want to ask Daniel Peterson. I want to ask any credible Mormon historian. I want to ask Matt Grow, I want to ask the editors. Robin Jensen, I want to ask the editors of the Joseph Smith Papers Project. I want to ask Marlon Jensen, you're still alive.

John Dehlin [01:45:19] Marlon Jensen, you know the answer to many of these questions.

John Dehlin [01:45:22] Stephen Snow, Richard Turley, you're still alive. You're in retirement. Any, any credible Mormon historian or scholar who's believing, will you please answer these questions that are relevant to you because hundreds of thousands of us deserve these answers. And most importantly, I'm going to end on this. Russell M. Nelson, Dallin H. Oaks, Dieter Uchtdorf, Jeffrey R. Holland, David Bednar. Right. Elder Christopherson, any current member of the LDS church, the Church of Jesus Christ's First Presidency, any member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, you are prophets, seers and revelators. At the end of the day, the buck stops with you. At the end of the day, it's not about Richard Bushman. It's not about Terrell Givens. It's not about John Dehlin.

John Dehlin [01:46:25] It's not about rfm.

John Dehlin [01:46:26] It's not about Fawn Brody. It's about the prophets, seers and revelators, the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It's about the men who we all raised our right Arms to the square and sustained as prophets, seers and revelators. Gave 10% of our income to for life, gave our lives to. Gave our reputations to. It is on you to fix this problem.

John Dehlin [01:46:53] And the Gospel Topics essays don't cut it, okay? And the Joseph Smith Papers Project don't come near to cutting it. And. And Rough Stone Rolling and the book Saints don't come near close to cutting it. Way too many families have been destroyed. Way too many people are suffering. Way too many LGBTQ suicides. Way too many women who didn't live up to their potential.

John Dehlin [01:47:19] Way too much racism, way too much ongoing fraud and deception. Way too many people in 2021 who are living in the Mormon bubble and still don't know about any of these things. Right now, the majority of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in 2021 don't know anything about anything. I've been talking today anything about what's in the CES Letter on Mormon Stories podcast in Rough Stone Rolling in no

John Dehlin [01:47:47] Man Knows My History in the Gospel Topics essays.

John Dehlin [01:47:50] Most members have never heard of the Gospel Topics essays. Okay? So you, First Presidency and Quorum of the 12, I am calling you out right now. It is on you to fix these problems. Please fix them. Please. Stop the hemorrhaging, stop the carnage, stop the destructions of families.

John Dehlin [01:48:14] Stop the people being harmed.

John Dehlin [01:48:16] Please, if you will, I'll give up the podcast and stop. How's that?

John Dehlin [01:48:20] There's my promise to you.

John Dehlin [01:48:22] All right, everybody. That is my presentation. These are the questions I would ask Richard Bushman. I want to do a series like this. Well, I've thought about doing a series

John Dehlin [01:48:32] like this to Terrell and Fiona Givens. I've thought about doing this to other

John Dehlin [01:48:37] people who won't come on Mormon Stories. And I would just love to hear your feedback.

John Dehlin [01:48:41] If this sucked, I want to hear it. If you loved it, I want to hear it.

John Dehlin [01:48:44] If you think I could change some

John Dehlin [01:48:46] things, I want to hear it.

John Dehlin [01:48:47] At the end of the day, I needed to get this off my chest

John Dehlin [01:48:51] because this was bothering me.

John Dehlin [01:48:53] This was eating at me, and now I've done it. I'd love your feedback. I appreciate your support. For those of you who want to see programming like this continue, I just

John Dehlin [01:49:03] want to say, Please contribute to MormonStories.org

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