Introducing the Episode and Its Guests

Amy McPhee [00:00:00] Welcome to Mormon stories. I'm Amy McPhee Olivest, and I'm here with the fabulous, amazing Chelsea Homer and Mindy Gledhill. And we're here to discuss whether women have more power and authority in our church. And we're going to have a discussion about the recent Worldwide Relief Society devotional. That was done about a week ago, and there was a big Instagram response. The church posted a quote from Devotional. Was it a devotional, guys, or.

Chelsea Homer [00:00:34] It's a devotional and a quote from Sister Dennis specifically about women's power in the church.

Amy McPhee [00:00:41] So there was this quote posted on Instagram, which is how I learned about it. Actually. I didn't watch the devotional myself. Was that true for you too, also?

Mindy Gledhill [00:00:51] I did not watch the devotional. No.

Chelsea Homer [00:00:52] I ended up going back to watch it because I kept seeing people say, you're taking this out of context. So I just wanted to see in full context. But, yeah, it was only because of Instagram that I watched it.

Amy McPhee [00:01:03] Okay. Yeah, me too. I was made aware of it because of Instagram, because there was just this huge groundswell of women responding to it, and it became a really big deal. And Mormon Stories, if you didn't catch it, did an excellent episode on this. It was a livestream. That's now. I think you can just watch it now as an episode. Really, really amazing episode. So if you haven't watched that and want to, you can. You can pause this right now, go back and watch that. And then this is kind of the part two to that. But before we dive into the content, why don't we just go around in a circle and kind of introduce ourselves again? I'm Amy McPhee, Alabest. I wrote an essay a few years ago called Dear Mormon Man, Tell Me what yout Would Do. And that is. It's really exciting. Here's a little teaser that's coming out on YouTube as an animated, kind of like, graphic novel read thing on YouTube. So that'll be really exciting. And then I now run a podcast called Breaking Down Patriarchy. So that's all about the history and impact of patriarchy. And then we just launched a YouTube channel also that has short, snappy videos that are really shareable and really excellent if you're interested in diving more into the history of patriarchy, how we got to where we all are today. So as soon as you're done with this, hop on over and look at rakingdownpatriarchy right here on YouTube. So that's a bit about me. Do we Want to go to Mindy and then Chelsea and just introduce yourselves?

Chelsea Homer [00:02:26] Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [00:02:26] Thank you so much, Amy. It's an honor to be here with both of you. I admire you both so much. My name is Mindy Gledhill. I am a recording artist and a songwri, and I teach music business at Utah Valley University. Sometimes I wonder, like, why I'm still in this conversation, but I feel like a lot of the music that I have been writing for the last few years has a lot to do with my journey as a Mormon woman. I have an album called Rabbit Hole that came out just before the pandemic that is all about my deconstruction of the faith and my departure from it. And I have an album coming out this year that's all about inner child work that really about so much of what we're talking about today with patriarchy and how that impacted me, you know, from my very earliest formative years. So that's why I'm here, and that's who I am and what I do.

Chelsea Homer [00:03:22] I'm so excited to hear this new album of yours, Mindy.

Amy McPhee [00:03:24] Me too.

Chelsea Homer [00:03:25] Thank you. My name is Chelsea Homer, and you might recognize me from a Mormon Stories episode I did a few years ago with my husband or maybe some mixed faith marriage posts from. From the church's account. I founded the Facebook group Faith Journey Meetups, which is a support group for women and gender queer people seeking a sounding board for their deconstruction process. And also co founded a local nonprofit called the Lost and Found Club, which we seek to add support and resources and most importantly, friendship to this space that many of us feel as we're distancing ourselves from the church. And so we have, like two to three events a month. Some of them are educational, guest speaking. Some are fun dances, comedy nights. We rented out classic skating for next weekend for general conference so families can come skate together. We even rented out Camp Tracy in the fall for a reclamation of girls camp for 250 people to come up the canyon and reclaim some of those girls camp traditions. So, anyway, we would love to have you join if you would like to have some fun with us. So that's me. I love it.

Amy McPhee [00:04:30] And I have to say, too, Mindy, I admire both of you so much, and it's so inspiring to me to see where everyone is standing in the arena doing the work that they were born to do and covering all these different areas in such a complimentary way, working together toward the same goal of uplifting women, really. And there are so many, so many People watching right now, too. I want to mention, too, that all three of us are also aware that we're all straight white women and just wanted to say at the beginning that we did try to coordinate this episode with some women of color that we were really excited from hearing, or excited to hear from, and because of scheduling issues that didn't work out, but so excited because I believe that there is a panel being put together right now so this will get the airtime it deserves actually in its own full episode, is the intersectionality and often the lack of intersectionality that happens in these conversations. And so super. All three of us are really looking forward to seeing that episode when that happens. So before we dive in and kind of use, I guess, this incident of the devotional and then the Instagram conversation, that's been happening as an entry point to be talking about patriarchal issues, because that's our jumping off point, I think it'd be really great to just have a little reminder about what was actually said in the devotional. So if we could play just a really brief clip, then we'll go from there.

Nelson's Claim About Women's Power and Authority

Chelsea Homer [00:06:02] President Nelson said, as a righteous, endowed Latter Day Saint woman, you speak and teach with power and authority from God. There is no other religious organization in the world that I know of that has so broadly given power and authority to women.

Amy McPhee [00:06:27] Wow.

Mindy Gledhill [00:06:27] Okay. I think it'd be great if we all just talked about our initial reactions when we first were made aware of this quote. I can at least say for myself that I. It just lit a fire inside of me. I have tried to check out from a lot of these conversations at different periods in my journey, just for my own mental health. I feel like I have to pace myself. And sometimes I ask the question, like, do I even want to be in this conversation anymore? Do I want to give up any more of my mental real estate to this? Because it can be really exhausting. But when a friend sent me this quote, I just. Yeah, it just lit a fire inside of me. Because first of all, it is not factually true that LDS women have more power given to them than an authority than any other religion. I mean, right off the bat, my mind went to one of the most beautiful and spiritual experiences of my life. I had just done the Women's March in Washington, and the next day I attended a United Methodist worship service. And it was the first time that I'd been in a congregation where there was a female pastor. So there was that. And one of the first things that she did was call forward anyone who wanted a Sunday School lesson in front of the congregation, and this lesbian couple came forward with their child and sat in the middle of this congregation, and it was like the most beautiful thing. There was just such a stirring in me that, you know, I really felt like, wow, I have never seen women be this visible in these positions, you know, And I. I also looked around, and in the congregation, there were all of these women, most of them elderly, and there were men, too, but all of these women wearing their pink hats and all their buttons from all these past marches that they had done on Washington for women's rights. And it was just this whole new scene for me that I'd never experienced. And it was. So. I guess my mind went to that after I read this quote, and I was like, no. And I started to think about all the religions who have had evolutions and are giving equal power and authority to women in those positions. I'll just read my personal response to this on Instagram. I decided to engage in the conversation, and I posted on the church's Instagram account, I was raised by this village, and there is so much to love about my people, but to make a statement like this about other religions who actually do offer women and all members the same power and position as men is insensitive and disrespectful. The gaslighting delusions of grandeur and elitism above other religions are some of the top issues that encouraged me to finally leave my village. I think this statement is dishonest and dismissive to other religions. So, yeah, for me, I felt rage also. Rage at the thought that her very words and her talk had to be vetted by a priesthood authority before she gave the talk, that the very meeting she was sitting in was presided over by a man, and that the men's words are never formally vetted by women. So I felt a lot of anger around these issues. And, yeah, I'm ready to, you know, face the music and talk about them openly again right now.

Chelsea Homer [00:10:13] Yeah. Mindy, your comment, I think, was the first comment that I read. I'm like, if Mindy's getting involved, I know something's off. And so I read through your comment, and I think for those who are not affiliated with the Mormon space, it's not uncommon for these hurtful waves of statements to come out, like either with devotionals or general conference or something set up Brigham Young University or new policy. Like Mindy said, there's just. You just anticipate these waves of hurt, and it's just hard knowing when and how to engage. But what is unique about the situation is the feedback. I haven't seen this type of rage from all across the believing spectrum of responses. And my initial response was to interrogate that first line about comparing there's no other religious organization in the world. And I think I was just referencing just my summer spent at Sunstone symposium because I saw people in the comments comparing other faith traditions around the world and saying just how, just discrediting the statement. But I'm like, let's bring it one step closer. And I am communing with community of Christ members of the church. And this is a religion or in a church that shares so much in common with us, they share the same origin story. They share so much of the same literature and language. You know, rather than going the polygamist route with Brigham Young, they went the anti polygamist route and hitched their wagons to Joseph and Emma's son, Joseph Smith III. But like in the 80s, they received revelation to give women the priesthood so women could hold offices of the priesthood. And just this year they've called their first female woman prophet and president. And I'm like, this is a church that shares so much in common with us and stems from Joseph Smith. If they can figure out how to listen to some of their members, why can't we? And so that's kind of where my mind was when I first saw the statement and then mixed with the rage and also just celebrating all of these comments from all of my friends. Nick and I were reading through the comments. He's like, look at all of your friends. Just like chiming in. It really was sweet to see that reaction in response to a very hurtful statement.

Amy McPhee [00:12:19] Yeah, totally agree and relate to both of your responses. I felt similar things. And like you said, seeing this like outpouring of pain and grief and anger was really hard sometimes, but also really inspiring. Like you said, Chelsea, that it was across the spectrum of like, whoa, women are speaking out about this was so inspiring also. So, yeah, thanks for both of those insights too. I think for me, when I read it, the first thing, maybe just because of the way my brain is especially conditioned right now to see is like in the language was the word give, like the power and authority given to women and like right there, that just identifies the power structure that this is an unapologetic patriarchy. And patriarchy, as we all know, is a structure. It's a structure that. Where men have power and then those men exert that power on all the other men in the organization. So not all men are like equally Empowered in a patriarchy. But there's a small group of men that then decides who gets access to that power. And some do and some don't for various reasons, but it excludes all women because they're women, right? And so they get to decide to give or to take away. To give it for a minute and then revoke it later. And so just that's that in that word. Giving power and authority to women is already the structures just inherent there. And I. The other thing that really struck me was like, the. The power and authority to do what? Right? Power and authority to. What is the priesthood power? And it just really reminds me of, like, were you ever, like, as a little kid? I'm sure I had this experience because it's like, in my mind, even though I don't quite remember it, but like, somebody giving money when you're really little, and they're like, some for you, some for me, some for you, some for me. And just the analogy that I keep thinking of is, like, the men in the church giving priesthood for me and priesthood for you. And you have the priesthood too, right? And then it's like gathering your coins, and then when something happens, you're like, okay, you kind of march up with your coins and you're like, I was told that I have the priesthood and here are my coins. And they look at them and they're like, those are Chuck E. Cheese tokens. Like, they don't seem like you can't buy anything with those. They don't work in the real world. You're like, but wait, you said you gave me these coins. And they're like, oh, no, those only work in the temple to do ordinances on dead women. Like, that's the only thing those Chuck E. Cheese tokens are good for is, like, in that building on Tuesday from 12 to 2, you can use your tokens in there and, like, do ordinances for dead women. But other than that, in the real world, the priesthood authority, like, it doesn't. And these are. I mean, I could tell the stories, and I'm sure we all could, but of, like, showing up and being like, whoa, whoa. I was told that I was on equal footing here. I'm not even seeking to lead. I'm just seeking to show up as a peer and, like, have a conversation. And the men are like, so? No, like, not really. And just. So anyway, the men giving, giving any power and authority, and then what does that actually look like? What's the currency? Women's currency is fake money in the church. That's how it's felt to me. Anyway.

Mindy Gledhill [00:15:44] I love that analogy.

Amy McPhee [00:15:46] Yeah, The Chuck E. Cheese. There's a ball pit. The whole thing is, like, very fleshed out in my mind.

Chelsea Homer [00:15:52] Anyway, that's kind of what my comment was on. The post was just like, looking for schools for my children. It's like, I wouldn't even take my kids to a school with the standards that the Church is operating. But because of these religious loopholes, they can do that because it is just like this counterfeit money. In the real world, none of us would be supporting this type of organization with our feet or our money. But because it's the church, somehow we're doing that with huge eternal ramifications. It's really messed up.

Amy McPhee [00:16:22] Totally.

Does the Church Gaslight Women About Their Role

Chelsea Homer [00:16:23] Maybe we'll jump to the next question about gaslighting. This is a key word that many have used in their criticism of Sister Dennis. Quote, in what ways does the patriarchy of the Church gaslight women? How have each of us experienced it personally? And as I was thinking about this question, I was thinking about the rebuttal video from the Scripture app. They shared it on the Friday's live of the Creator, who was essentially saying, like, we all know Sister Dennis wasn't saying that women could hold executive offices of the priesthood. She was saying that women have access through the temple to the priesthood of God. And I was watching that video on my own, and I just felt like this muscle memory in my body, like this inclination to want to believe what she was saying, like leaning into this mental gymnastics that is so familiar and it's so disorienting. It's hard to explain to someone from the outside, like, why we would get caught up in this. But I think there is a real strategy with putting pressure on the individual to feel that power rather than an organization to actually empower their individuals. And you'll see that all the time with comments from women saying, well, I don't want the priesthood. I don't want to be bishop. I feel empowered. If you don't feel empowered, that's a you issue. And that's something that happens a lot with my comments. And I think what it's really happening is we are cutting ourselves off from the bigger picture of being able to recognize very systemic structural patterns of oppression and hurt and not able to acknowledge the intersectionality that's happening in all of these issues, because that would require you to be able to look at a bigger group of people and see how words and actions and policies affect us differently depending on our different layers of marginalization. And it keeps Us in this rat race of pitting women against women, members against members, and we're not able to put the pressure appropriately on the organization who put us in this position in the first place. And it reminds me of that quote from Kate Kelly, who said, you know, equality is not a feeling. It's measurable. And that's what I'm seeing in these comments is these women saying, hey, you can't keep telling us we have power because we, we can see with our own eyes we do not have power. I can see this podium full of men who are presiding over me in meetings. I can see the general conference minutes of men speakers versus women speakers. I can see how this structurally supported patriarchy at church is infiltrating my home, my family, my partnerships. And it's enough. This has to stop. And I'm not going to be gaslit over this anymore. And that's probably one of the most beautiful things about this week, is just, we're done. This is not. This gaslighting isn't working anymore.

Mindy Gledhill [00:19:09] Fantastic.

Amy McPhee [00:19:11] I don't have anything to add to that. That was awesome. Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [00:19:15] Okay.

Mindy Gledhill [00:19:17] I will speak for three hours now on the topic of gaslighting. Just kidding. For me, when you asked about personal experiences with gaslighting in the church, my mind goes to my first time through the temple and every time thereafter, I think for me, it was a really difficult experience. Actually, I, I wasn't prepared. I took a temple prep class, but I wasn't prepared for all of the ways in which it is so obvious that women are not treated equally to men in the temple. I, yeah, so for me, all of those things were pretty painful. And I remember going to the bishop of my ward after a few years of going to the temple faithfully because I thought, this is, this must be a me problem. Everyone talks about how much they love the temple and it's the apex of our religious worship experience. And we are taught from our, our earliest years in primary to go to the temple someday. Like, that's. And so for me, I was just like, well, must be a me problem. So I went to my bishop and I said, I need help. Every time I go to the temple, I end up in the parking lot after slumped, my steering wheel weeping. And I, I, I don't understand why. I just don't feel good there. I don't feel like it's equal. I don't like standing, being made to stand on the left side of my husband. I don't having to veil my face before God in submission when he doesn't have to. I don't like that. We receive these special symbolic names and he gets to know mine, but I don't get to know his. I don't. Yeah, like, all of these things, and there's just so many more. Oh, yeah. My wedding ceremony, covenanting to obey my husband. And he didn't have to do that for me. Anyway, you all know I could go on and on. And we know that some of those things have changed now. For me, that's part of the gaslighting experience. When I went to my bishop and he said, his response was, you know, I don't think you have to go to the temple if it's making you feel bad. Which caught me off guard because my whole life I'd been taught that that is get to the temple. That is where you need to be. So, number one, he somehow, like, changed the rules there on the spot. But then also he was like, and if your husband is ever unrighteous, then this just doesn't apply. He talked about unrighteous dominion. Let's just talk about the word dominion for a second. Like, that very word implies that he has power over me. So for me, the Gaslighting in that experience is just like, don't worry about it. Like, it's. Yeah. I just feel like all of my concerns were dismissed with reasons that didn't even really make sense to me. And that experience is just always so common. There's always a contorting of semantics around language in the church. Like, I saw people do that with the Sister Dennis quo. When she used the word broadly. It was like, well, the word broadly really means blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, it's just. It's crazy making. So, yeah, for me, I just feel like the temple was one. And then for me, that got expounded later on when the church quietly changed some of those things in the temple. From what I understand, women don't have to veil their faces anymore. They don't have to covenant to. To obey. What are some of the other changes, do you remember?

Amy McPhee [00:22:58] I mean, I think they did take out the language that was like. Yeah, the hearkening language. I don't know if they took out. One that was so painful for me was that men will be kings and priests to the most high God, and women will be queens and priestesses, and

Mindy Gledhill [00:23:12] you expect unto their husbands.

Amy McPhee [00:23:13] Unto their husbands. So, yeah, but I don't know if that's still.

Mindy Gledhill [00:23:17] I think they took it out.

Amy McPhee [00:23:19] I heard they took it out.

Chelsea Homer [00:23:20] I think it was that. Cause I remember that was a big straw for me when Nick left the church a year after we got married. And I was really trying to make it work and going to the temple, and I was covenanting to a man who doesn't believe in God, but I could only get to God through him. Like, it just was so hurtful. And I. I do believe that language has changed.

Amy McPhee [00:23:37] I think it was.

Chelsea Homer [00:23:38] Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [00:23:38] Okay. So for me, when. When they do these quiet changes, they never talk about why. They never recognize why the changes were made or that this has been painful for a lot of women or this was wrong. There's no. It's just like. And so for me, that isn't a textbook example of gaslighting. It's just like the total ignoring of this huge problem that's always been there, but then pretending like it was never a problem.

Amy McPhee [00:24:08] Yep.

Mindy Gledhill [00:24:09] Like it never even existed.

Amy McPhee [00:24:10] Yep.

Mindy Gledhill [00:24:11] Yeah.

Amy McPhee [00:24:12] And I remember when this happened, too, because this. The temple was huge for me, too, Mindy. And we've never talked about, like, both of us literally, like, with those memories of slumped over, my minivan steering wheel also bawling in the parking lot. But when it wasn't just not talking about it, it was, like, prohibited from speaking about it. It was like, we made these changes. Don't talk about it. And I guess I will throw in one thing about the gaslighting, too, that was. That I've been mulling over, because gaslighting, I learned this recently, is from a play from 1938, the Gaslight. Do you know this already? But it's. So technically, the definition is the person does know that the other person. The person knows the truth and is trying to fool them on purpose, like, to make them feel crazy. And colloquially, we use it for, like, anytime. We're like, no, there's no problem here. But I think, Sister Dennis, I think the women of the church, my guess is the women leaders, it seems to be more just like this absorbed, internalized patriarchy, where they're not necessarily like, yeah, we actually know we don't have the priesthood, but we're going to make you feel crazy. But I. And I tend to be a person who desperately wants to give the benefit of the doubt, even to the brethren. I really want to think, well, they just. They believe this sincerely in their hearts. But I've been seeing some women, actually, it was Celeste who spoke on the last episode, and she was like, women doing the Mormon history going back to, like, women have been bringing these issues up for decades, not just to men in the church, but to those exact men who have been in leadership positions since the 70s. All of these topics have been brought up again and again and again. They actually do know that women feel this way. They actually do know it's not equal. And so I'm like, I want to believe in the goodness of people's hearts and that no one would ever deceive someone willfully. And I'm wrestling with that actually, just thinking, like, do they really, like, they know we're in this much pain and they're making us feel crazy on purpose? I don't know. I don't want to be a person who sees it that way, but it's really hard not to at this point. Like, with so many people speaking up for so long and nothing.

Chelsea Homer [00:26:20] Yeah, Celeste did a good substack detailing all of these, like, protests, books that have been written, all of that. So if you want to check out her substack. But yeah, just putting, seeing it all in writing, it's like they know. Like the brethren know. They've been told for decades.

Amy McPhee [00:26:36] Yes, yeah, yeah. And it's. That is really angering too, to see, because I kind of did think this too. Like, maybe if they just knew how painful this was for women. Maybe if they see the Instagram comments. And then there's of course, like, we will show these to the people, like the leaders who track these issues or something. It's like, who are these people and are they tracking it anyway? No, they know. Okay, should we go on to the next topic? The next thing we wanted to talk about is benevolent patriarchy or benevolent sexism. This is something I read about and talk about a lot. And to me, something that is real. It is actually really important to me to distinguish between misogyny, which is hatred of women, like, dislike, disdain for women, and benevolent patriarchy. And one thing that I read, I have to read periodically for different things I do, is like the actual, the real misogyny of the early Christian church, for example, where you read things from, like, very, very high up church leaders that are like, don't you know, women that you are? Eve, because of you, the Son of God had to die. Every single one of you is false and untrustworthy because Eve did this. This is. So that's misogyny. And there, there are specific, like, horrible, horrible things that come from misogynistic cultures where you see, like, men actually really, truly loathing women and enacting a patriarchy that's very, very overt and very, very hostile toward women. But one specific thing, as we all know about a benevolent patriarchy, where it's. It's not that. It's not misogyny. It's actually men who actually really do feel love for women, right? They love. They do. They love their daughters, they love their wives, they love their sisters, and. And they put them on a pedestal, which developed in Europe much, much later, like, centuries later. You see it in chivalry. You see it in the cult of domesticity in the 19th century of, like, no, women are. Men are not in charge of women because women are bad. Men are in charge of women because women are good. They're angels. Like, they're on a pedestal, and we need to protect them. And we don't want them to, like, get their feet dirty out in the public sphere voting or something. Like, we've got to protect them. And the hard thing about that, like you mentioned earlier, it's just like, when it's a benevolent person who you can tell actually really loves you or you have a relationship with, it is really hard to bring up the problem and confront the structure of it, because then you're the grumpy one, you're the mean one. Everything is happy. And if the person does it with a smile on your face, then it. Then you feel like you're the one causing the problem if you bring up the issue at all. And that's one of the tricky parts for me about benevolent patriarchy.

Chelsea Homer [00:29:25] Yeah. What you just described is how we have our approach with Heavenly Mother. Like, she's too good to talk about. We just have to keep her up there in heaven, keep her quiet, keep everybody else. Like, the relationship is detached because she's so good, because we put her on this pedestal. So, anyway, I think that's, Yeah, a really hard thing to parse out with people in your life.

Misogyny Versus Benevolent Sexism in the Church

Mindy Gledhill [00:29:46] Amy, I, like, initially want to argue that the church has both misogyny and benevolent sexism in it. Do you feel the same?

Amy McPhee [00:29:56] No. That's fair. Yeah, for sure.

Mindy Gledhill [00:29:58] Depending on the church, actual misogyny, in what ways do you see that play out?

Amy McPhee [00:30:02] Well, I mean, I guess. I guess I've been lucky never to have experienced a man where I'm like, oh, no, he would kill me if he had a chance. You know what I mean? Or he wants me to not thrive in my life. He thinks I'm disgusting because I'm a woman. I've actually personally never experienced that. But things like that do subtly denigrate the female and see the female definitely as less than in terms of, like, less able to lead. Less able. Well, I mean, I guess it's True. There is misogyny even in a practice, like not allowing women to be ward clerks. What does that stem from? Like, is it lack of trust of women with finances or a lack in belief that women can do math? What does that come from? It does denigrate the female. So I guess. I guess there's a whole spectrum, isn't there, of like, real true hatred and expressing it as hatred. But even the benevolent patriarchy has a belief, I guess, at its core. Mindy, you're right in this.

Mindy Gledhill [00:31:05] Yeah. I mean, for me, inferiority, it's a super obvious form of misogyny to not want women to even sit in front of the congregation. Like, they are not even worthy enough to sit on the stand, you know, with men and lead in the same ways. I'm just. Yeah, to me, that is misogyny that you do not have that level of equal respect. To me, that's human decency. It's not even like a request for extra special treatment. It's just human decency which we are not given.

Amy McPhee [00:31:38] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [00:31:39] That reminds me of a Janna Reese article of something like, we're not teaching our kids, our Mormon kids to respect women. And it's just these inherent things on display where, like, even if it's not intentional, I'm trying to indoctrinate you to hate women. It's just naturally you will distrust women, by the way that the church is set up. So I think that's a really good point, Mindy.

Amy McPhee [00:32:01] It is. And this tricky situation where they think they are respecting women again by doing the angel in the house thing. Like my angel mother who never, you know, said a wrong word in her life, she's on a pedestal. But then the real respect and not allowing real equality. That's a great point.

Mindy Gledhill [00:32:20] I'm also thinking of the word help meet right now in the temple. I covenanted to be a help meet to my husband when I covenanted to also hearken unto him and obey him. For me, that's also a form of misogyny of putting me in the position of a servant, you know? Yeah.

Amy McPhee [00:32:39] I guess one thing that I would add, just as I do my work, is where I would. I do think it's important to distinguish in each conversation what. What it actually is. And. But then what the person is feeling. Because if I come at a man who in his heart is feeling love for me and feeling like he's respecting me and honoring me, and he. And I treat him like he's Andrew Tate. You know what I mean? If I come at him like, you hate me, and he's like, I actually love you, and he doesn't know better. I guess that's why, for me, it's still important to me to distinguish intentions and how. Men are just taught this the way we all are from the time they're babies. And a lot of times their intention is like, I want to. I mean, not a lot of times. I feel like almost every time the intention is I want to be a good person. And they are taught the way to be a good man is to treat a woman this way. And so their intention is, I want to be a good man. And so I'm going to protect my, you know, A, B, and C, what we just said, the benevolent patriarchy. But they're doing it because they feel like that's the way to be a good person. And so to be gentle. That's my approach, is to be gentle and give the benefit of the doubt that, like, this is just the way he's been taught to treat women. Well. But if I could show him gently, like, a better way. There's actually another option here. The option isn't Taliban or, you know, angel in the house. Don't let a woman out of your house because you love her. There's, like, so many. There's other options here anyway.

Mindy Gledhill [00:34:09] Yeah, thank you for clarifying that. I sometimes, you know, like, when I picture men watching conversations like this, I wonder if some of them, like, feel an inclination to check out or just feel like we're hating on men. And I. It. It is not that, like, I have three sons. I'm married to a man. I live. I'm the only woman in a home with. With four men. And I just. I love them more than anyone. They are brilliant, they are smart, they are strong. They're fantastic. They know that I don't. And I. So for me, I just. I. I want my sons to grow up, though, like, with a mother who was able to teach them that women should be at their equal. And this. Yeah, just these conversations, to me, I really want to be in their minds as they are growing up. I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's. I think there is a responsibility that men have. You know, those of you who are watching this, maybe you're doing that work to deconstruct how patriarchy has harmed both men and women and how it has impacted you. And. Yeah, I'm really grateful to be in a relationship where my husband has done that work, and that is hard work to do.

Chelsea Homer [00:35:29] So.

Mindy Gledhill [00:35:29] Yeah, you might be Watching this, thinking. But I love women. I love my. My daughters, my. My wife. I want to, you know, I want them to know that. And that is one thing that is important. And of course you should love women. But to love them in a way that makes. That sets them up to be weak and fragile is not empowering.

Amy McPhee [00:35:53] 100. Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [00:35:55] Okay. I think the next thing that we want to talk about is just the phenomenon of that comment section on the church's Instagram when Sister Dennis's quote was posted. I don't know what we're up to right now. How many comments? Does anyone know? Is it like 14,000 or 15,000 comments around there? You know, And I would wager largely from the voices of women who have spoken out, both women who are actively engaging in the church, who are participating members and women who have left, women who have never been members, probably. But I would say probably most of the comments are women who have some kind of Mormon background. But I just am like, this is amazing and encouraging like, that. So many women are speaking out about their experience as women in this imbalanced power structure. And one of the things that I find to be so frustrating about when these events happen is the silence of the patriarchy in the face of the cries of their people. I just feel like when, you know, lots of issues. I'm thinking of the November 5 policy in 2015. I'm thinking of there's just this. This silence or sometimes a diplomatic, sterile response. So the church's social media team on Instagram responded after a few days, which I thought was. That actually was like, wow, I have not seen that before. I don't think it's enough. But it was something. But the social media team responded and said, we see your comments and we will show them to the leaders. And that's that. Like, I don't.

Chelsea Homer [00:37:46] And they were also in people's DMs, like, when the comments were or just disappeared, that they were, like, reassuring people who. I don't know if they got in your DMs, Mindy, but people who were like, where did the comments go? Like, they were privately DMing people, which I also thought was very unique because I don't see that happening.

Mindy Gledhill [00:38:02] I think that's great. Way to go. Way to at least respond. What I think is still, like, amiss. Here is the actual leadership. If you have taken on what you call a mantle of power to lead people through this life and you are silent when they are suffering and when they are trying to, like, desperately speak to you, that is a Gross abuse of power. That to me is quite frankly disgusting. So I just feel like my question is why, why are you silent in the face of your people's suffering? Maybe in general conference, you know, they'll speak about it, but you know, for me it's usually always some kind of very diplomatic, diplomatically crafted response or very general or, but or gaslighting. They will just avoid it altogether. Really. Like, please address the problems. You know, please like talk to your people. Understand, like look into the issues, talk about the history. Stop avoiding it. For me, it's a huge problem. I think one of the reasons why they do this is maybe for legal reasons. Like, you know, they, they have to be diplomatic for those reasons. But I don't that to me that's not true leading. Like if you are representing Jesus Christ and his teachings, that to me that is not true leadership to go through your law firm and to do what they tell you to do. Yeah, I would love to hear your thoughts about why the church is silent when these things happen.

Men, Marriage, and Feminist Breadcrumbs

Amy McPhee [00:39:48] You could go ahead.

Chelsea Homer [00:39:49] Well, my thoughts when I was thinking about this question was maybe also less about the church, but kind of what you were touching on earlier is just in the comments section like, where are the men? In the comments where I had, I was talking to a friend about this panel and in preparation and she said, honestly, this should be a panel of men too. Like this is just as much a men's issue as it is women's. And it's like even in the cries of the people, it often seems like it's the women crying for women related issues. And it's like even the good men, the men who are doing the work, like are they speaking out about it? Are they sharing in this collective rage? Like I know both Mormon and post Mormon men have spent their lives being pedestaled above women. And so leaving the church doesn't absolve that work that needs to be done. And so it's almost like the silence on both sides, on all sides. It's like, where are the men in this hardship for their families and their wives and their kids? And my friend just bringing that up, I'm like, you're right. Like I'm just scrolling through these comments and it's, it's mostly women and none gender confirming or affirm or gender queer people, you know, saying like this, this isn't right. And I'm just. Yeah, it made me think quite a bit.

Amy McPhee [00:41:05] Yeah, I had similar responses to response to both of you. And like I said earlier, just the way it was phrased like, we'll be passing this along to the leaders that track these issues. And to me, that was just so marginalizing. Like, it just really highlighted that women's issues are seen as marginal to the. To the default. Primary central issue, which is it is a male priesthood. And lots of people have pointed out if all the women were, like, vanished from the earth, the church would be fine. And because women are really marginal. So those issues, when it's more than 50% of the church's membership, just. Yeah, it was just really telling about how they look at it.

Chelsea Homer [00:41:50] Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [00:41:51] I also just can't help but think, if the prophet truly speaks to God and is divinely inspired by God, does God have nothing to say to women?

Chelsea Homer [00:42:02] No, that's a great question. Okay, we're going to talk more about breadcrumbs, which we're all used to. How does it feel when small changes are made, like temple ceremony changes, women being able to pray in general conference, et cetera. Is this positive? Is this enough? And I just keep thinking about the situations I've been in where I've met like Margaret Toscano and Sonia Johnson and Maxine Hanks, and looking at the faces and looking in the eyes of these pretty iconic Mormon trailblazers for feminism. They were talking about women in the priesthood and Heavenly Mother and Mormon feminism in general long before I was even conceived. And just hearing their experiences. And here we are 33 years later, still asking and begging for the same things. The same things. It's so humbling and honestly, just demoralizing. And I think for me, finding my critical thinking predecessors has really given me the motivation to stop begging and to start moving and to start acting. And so that's when I started to get a little bit more loud about myself. Descent. And I ended up walking out of the church. But I just feel so much rage for what women are asking is just the bare, bare minimum, and they are still being rejected. Like these are. It just fills my body with rage and. Yeah, yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [00:43:38] And the very fact that women have to ask exposes the gross power dynamic that exists in the patriarchy. Yeah, I'm with you, Chelsea. I had this thought last a couple days ago about breadcrumbs, and I tried to put it into words the best I could, but it was, when you've been starving, a breadcrumb can look like a feast, but when you're feasting on breadcrumbs, you're still starving. And I feel like that is what continues to happen with women, and that is why you feel like we've been talking about this for decades, actually, from the beginning, women from the very origins of the church have felt these things. So. Yeah, I'm with you.

Chelsea Homer [00:44:24] That's a great quote.

Amy McPhee [00:44:25] Yeah. One thing that I heard this morning from my sister, I was saying, how has this struck you? And she was talking about friends of hers that have. That are doing that hard, like, excruciating work of trying to enact change within the church, right? Like doing the nuanced work and trying to lift up their faith tradition. And I think we've all been that person. Right. And like, know how excruciating that is. And she said the. I think what she was saying is, like, the people, sometimes that's the people who are most hurt by things like this. And I was remembering, so I won't even go into the whole situation, but I was really trying to do that at this moment. In fact, dear Mormon man, the essay starts with me having a meltdown, right? Where I'm like, some little thing happened and then I lost it and was like sobbing and yelling, which that's not really my personality. So my family was like, oh my gosh, what happened to Mom? And it was around this relatively kind of like, not big deal thing in my ward, but where I just felt like bulldozed one last time. And it was the straw that broke the camel's back. But interestingly, it's weird what I. My impulse in this, like, rage was I went and I found all of my exponent magazines and tore them up. Like, tore them to shreds. I didn't tear up my scriptures, I tore up my exponent magazines. And I think because I was so enraged that I had allowed myself to hope. You know what I mean? Like, I was really trying. I was trying so hard to make it work. And thinking like, no, they'll eventually if they again, like, what we were talking about before, if they just knew women's pain, I think we could do this. Like, I really think we can do this. And the heartbreak of, like, trying so hard and then having it just be like, no, like, we really don't listen to women. We really actually don't care. And we're going to tell you again. I mean, in response to this specific incident, we're just going to tell you everything's fine already. I think that for me is like the breadcrumbs of, like, trying to make these tiny little incremental changes. Like, women are going to wear pants at church now, or we can say a fricking prayer in the general conference and you get it, and you're just like, this is just demeaning, like you said, demeaning to do this work and then just see, like, in the end. So I'm not discouraging people who are still in the church and doing that work. I think it's so important. And if that's what people feel, people should do the work they feel called to do when they feel called to do it. And I respect and am grateful because I think we all know, like, we all have family members, I think, and dear close friends who will be in the church forever. And so, like, the temple changes when they got rid of that language that's explicitly subjugating language that will eliminate some abuses in marriages. It will. So I'm grateful for it. I will have nieces and friends, kids who will be women in the church forever. And. And if that eliminates a chance of abuse in their marriages, I'm glad it happened. I'm grateful. Is it enough? That was one of the questions. It's not. It's not enough. But, yeah, we all have to keep laboring, I guess, as we can. Taking breaks for mental health.

Mindy Gledhill [00:47:53] Amy, thank you so much for saying that. I have felt those same feelings. I think a lot of women who start to feel emboldened and to start asking questions and trying to make change go through a similar journey where, you know, I wore pants to church one day when there was. I think there was, like, a collective movement to wear pants to church to make a statement. And it was meant to be, you know, like a peaceful protest, a peaceful way to talk about women's equality in the church. And I was the only woman wearing pants in my ward. And I was the music leader during sacrament meetings. So I was up on, you know, the music stand, standing in front of everyone, my pants, and I. I got a few strange looks, you know, but after all was said and done, it did nothing. You know, maybe it moved the needle. Maybe it. It gave other women who were silently questioning permission to start asking questions or start, you know, being able to advocate for themselves. I think that that's where there's value in people who are doing important work from within. I want to recognize that there are women in the church who are. It's not safe for them to ask these questions. It's not physically safe. Many are in abusive relationships where for them to question anything could be physically dangerous for them. I want to recognize that there are women who are not emotionally saf to be able to advocate for themselves right now, and that I sit in a In a position of privilege with having been able to leave safely.

Chelsea Homer [00:49:38] Safely.

Mindy Gledhill [00:49:40] I say that loosely because it has been at a great cost for me with my mental health, and I've lost a lot of relationships. So I want to recognize that. And I. I've also had the same journey with you, though, where it's like, you could change everything for women in the church. What if tomorrow they all were ordained and had equal roles with men in the church? I've had to ask myself, would that then change everything for me? And could I go back and join again? And I think as I had my deconstruction journey, I've had to realize the very painful truth that the church was founded on the subordination of women at its very core. I mean, and it practices that in the life to come, like, through polygamy. And I don't know how you undo that. Like, that's just what it is. I gave this analogy earlier this week on my Instagram, where there are women who are talking about the changes they want to see made, you know, and for me, I just was like, well, it sounds to me like you're saying to the priesthood, you know, you. You made these sandwiches, and you kept all the toppings, the lettuce and the tomatoes for yourself on your sandwich, but when you gave them all to the women, you took those toppings off. Please put our toppings back on the sandwich. But for me, at the very core of it, it's still a shit sandwich. You know, like. And I am done trying to serve that to women. I am here to, like, shine a light on the very core of the problem which, to me is at the foundation of the church. And, you know, with Joseph Smith and the restoration of the church. For me, that was very largely founded on his treatment of women. His. You know, I think, please correct me if I'm wrong, somebody on the Internet, but I think Joseph married 11 women in secret before telling his wife Emma. And then after that, you know, there were many more to come. But it was, you know, the church in its earliest days was founded on the abuse of women. It's not just the subordination. For me, that is abuse of women. And also the women, the sisters, the mothers and daughters he married, the. The men he sent away so he could marry their wives while they were away on missions. Like, it just. I don't know how you undo that.

Chelsea Homer [00:52:08] That.

Ordination, Patriarchy, and Personal Impact

Mindy Gledhill [00:52:08] And I don't know how you undo the fact that the Book of Mormon, you know, the key scriptures of this religion in addition to the Bible, but the Book of Mormon. There's not one word written by a woman in that book. Like, I don't. These are all foundational things to the religion. The prophet who operates today practices polygamy can't do it legally, presently, but he's sealed to more than one woman. So I. Yeah, for me, when you break it down, it's a sandwich at its core. And I'm done serving that to women. Women and trying get them to eat it, even if they have their lettuce and tomatoes on it.

Chelsea Homer [00:52:46] Amen. Thanks, Mindy.

Amy McPhee [00:52:50] Yeah, I think of the episode that preceded this one, like, we talked about where they talked about even if men were to ordain women, as we've all said here today, too, again, the fact that we have to ask and that it can be granted by men, theoretically, then it could be revoked by men anyway, but that even it's the priesthood of Melchizedek or Aaron or it's. Or it's given by Peter, James and John, it's still a male patriarchal priesthood. And so, yeah, like you said, Mindy, it's just hard. The structure, it's just so baked into the structure that even the big asks, like the very radical asks, like, ordination, it's actually still a patriarchal structure that women are wanting to participate in, which, again, everyone will have, like, different feelings about that. But it is important to be aware of that. Like, that's the structure that. That you're operating in. So I think a great. Actually, that's a great bridge to the next topic that we wanted to talk about, because you articulated the structure so well, Mindy. And we've talked about other experiences, but I want to still ask this question about personal experiences of how patriarchy harmed us. And I thought of a couple of things, just some anecdotes, I will say. First, one of the most egregious harms to me is the severing of women from their sexuality, the purity culture that is so prevalent in our religion and other conservative religions. I'll say it's not just the LDS Church, but very much. And that's the one I know, and that's the one that harmed me. But that's something that I know so many women struggle with, and that's an essential part of ourselves that I feel we are severed from when we're really young and vulnerable and don't have any idea what's happening to us. And the horrible fruit that that just bears throughout a woman's life and being separated from her sexuality is a huge one. I think that's what keeps Mormon sex therapists in business. Because it is just, we're so, so damaged by it. But some, some other things that I thought of were like, by the time I had my feminist awakening, I was married and had a bunch of kids and realized like I had just, I realized I had been told this lie that, you know, there's that famous talk by James E. Faust who I think again is like this dear hearted man. But for him to say, like women, you won't be able to do everything well. Like you can't eat a bunch of food or you'll get a tummy ache. Do you remember this talk in the 90s? So what I hadn't had the, you know, consciousness to be able to question was like, men got to, if you think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? Like where you need to have your basic needs covered, but then as you get toward the top of that pyramid, like, well, we all need relationships, like healthy, loving relationships, we need healthy families to thrive, but we also need self actualization. And Maslow said capacities are needs and they clamor to be used and they'd only cease their clamor with, with their use. And if you don't use your capacities, it makes you sick. And I love children is where I'm going with this, I guess is I was told that as a woman I would only need to have relationships, I would only need to have a husband and children and that would, I would be fulfilled by that. And I realized what I felt was too late, right? Whereas like I have all these kids now. It's too late for me. But it turns out, like, I'm a smart person, I'm a scholar and I didn't get to do it. And I, I ended up foregoing that whole part of myself so that I could just do this one thing and men get to do all of it and we all need all of it. And a lot of patriarchy does this to men too, where they forego the relationship part like you are the breadwinner. So they end up being able to self actualize in a career and they miss out on. I've seen men cry because they missed out on the critical years when their kids were babies because they were at the office and their wife did that and they missed out on that too. And it hurt men too. But anyway, for me, I was like, I missed, I missed the boat. It's too late. It's too late for me. And anytime I see a picture of myself at Stanford, it makes me cry. I Mean, just thinking about it makes me cry. I'm so grateful that it wasn't too late for me. I got to go back to grad school. I'm doing a PhD now. But I remember this moment. Two moments. I remember sitting in the class, in a class, feeling so grateful to be there. And that's true. But then this rage filling me from head to toe. I'm like, that professor's younger than I am. I was born to teach here, and I'm just, like, barely starting this journey. And I'm 40. And I was so angry for the time that I lost because I was told that lie. And then the other thing, and this came from my master's degree, too, was there was this class that was happening where the professor I admire, I adore him and I revere him, and he was leading this discussion. The whole class was on this track in the discussion. And I just sat there like, they are really missing something here. And I was so scared to not confront, but, like, challenge. I was scared to challenge the professor, who's an older man, like, about my dad's age. He looked like my dad. And I was like, I don't know. I did. I challenged the professor. The whole conversation changed. It was such a valuable contribution to this class period. And as I walked out to my car, the nervous system dysregulation that I was experiencing by challenging a man, my hands were shaking. So I wanted to call Eric, my husband, and tell him, like, oh, my gosh, this thing just happened. I could could see from outside myself, whoa, she is freaked out to challenge a man. This is really interesting. And I was wanting to call Eric, and my hands were shaking so bad, I couldn't even dial his number because I was terrified. I had been so conditioned to, like, you don't ever challenge that man's authority. This was me in my 40s in grad school. And I was so angry, so angry that that had been my conditioning. So patriarchy has still gotten so inside the cells of my body that still in my position, I still notice myself, like, being extra deferential, extra just, like, trying to please at all times and terrified to interact as a peer with men. And I am doing so much work to get that out of myself. But it's going to be a labor that I have to do forever because it's been in there my whole life. Anyway, those are a couple of my examples.

Mindy Gledhill [01:00:09] Oh, thank you so much for sharing that. That is so powerful. I just. I feel so much of what you're saying just on such A deep level. Amy. I just think, yeah, it makes me think about all of my experiences as well in the same areas with just, just we are in this soup of, you know, where we, we're looking at it all like this close up to our faces and it's so hard to see beyond it because we're, you know, if, maybe it's different when you're a convert to this religion, but if you are grown, you grow up in it. You know, from every book of the scriptures being written by amend to the people you see on the stand being a man to being told that the only people with the, you know, actual authority and priesthood are men. It just is so ingrained in you at that cellular level. And I think it can set women up to be taken advantage of. I like, I just remember too my own instincts as a child when I was 8 and went in for my worthy worthiness interview for my baptism, as soon as my parents shut that door and I was alone in a room with a grown man, my instincts insides were screaming. And he was probably a good man. He didn't do anything to harm me physically. But I would say like that it causes harm to have to sit across a desk for a man who is asking you questions about your worthiness as a child and to have that person always be a man through your whole life. It sets women up to be taken advantage of because it is so uncomfortable to challenge the authority of a man. And later in high school for me, I experienced sexual assault and I was made to go through the repentance process for that at the hands of the patriarchy. And I could not advocate for myself. I had never been given that power. And it's still today. It is hard for me even the very coming together with women here, you know, in your support for me to make waves is uncomfortable still. And I have had to talk to my inner child in preparation for even coming here to tell her that she's safe, that it's, it's okay to advocate for her, to advocate for me that I am not asking for some kind of extra special treatment by that, but that I am. It's again, like I said earlier, that's just human decency and I deserve that and so do women everywhere.

Chelsea Homer [01:02:52] Yeah, I don't know if I'll ever stop crying about Mormonism. Like I resonate with everything that you've said. I mean I cry about purity culture every single week. Still, I guess for me I was, I just naively assumed that my proximity to those carpeted walls would indicate the level of grip that the patriarchy would have on my life. Sorry, I did not expect to get emotional. And so like when I left, you know, I just assumed like it would get better, but it got, it got worse for a while where I just realized, I'm sorry, I'm just how deeply, deeply insecure and self distrusting I was. Where like the irony is like trying to detox from the patriarchy. Like, I found myself constantly, constantly asking Nick for his validation for everything, for every little decision. Like, am I, is this right? Am I thinking okay? Like, am I, you know, just like constantly asking him? And it was just exhausting. And somewhere along the lines I got the advice to every single day we make these micro decisions, these little decisions about like what we eat, what we wear, how we spend our time, even just getting a text and declining an invitation to come to an event. And I was needing Nick's validation for a lot more. Like, it's embarrassing to admit, but I started to like strengthen that like muscle of autonomy and self trust. And it started with those little decisions. But it was, it was really, really hard. And I feel like it will be. I'll spend the rest of my life trying to trust myself because I've just cut myself off so substantially for my feelings and from my body to survive, you know, And I know there's, I have layers of privilege to hear that. It's just hard. It's hard. And I'm seeing this as I'm like helping build this community and I interface with a lot, a lot of Mormon affiliated people and I see the trauma and there's so many themes among all of us. Even though we have different lived experiences, different family situations, different layers of belief, there's so many themes that run through our lives and it's just devastating. And yeah, the patriarchy has definitely affected me and it's in the tapestry of my identity and I don't know how I'll ever uproot that. Anyway, I'm sorry it's so emotional. It's been an emotional weekend. Even just preparing for this too. Like, this is a lot of just emotional labor to have these conversations again and again and again.

Mindy Gledhill [01:05:55] We can stop being sorry for showing up in our emotions. I think that was so beautiful and powerful.

Amy McPhee [01:06:00] It was Chelsea.

Chelsea Homer [01:06:02] It was.

Amy McPhee [01:06:03] And it was so hard for all of us. I think, like we all almost bailed several times, to be honest. Like, this was really hard to even. And I think it is because of that. Because like doing this, wading into these waters again so explicitly are. Is it is. It's excruciating. And it brings us up these things that are so, so personal. Thanks for sharing, Chelsea.

Mindy Gledhill [01:06:27] Yeah, thank you both for sharing. So why are we still choosing to participate in this conversation if we've deconstructed a lot of these things? I guess for me personally, I hear this criticism a lot about me leaving the church personally, where people will say something like, you know, when people leave, they can't leave it alone. Why can't you leave it alone? You know, And I think it's so very unfair to say that. Comment. People out there who say that, please stop saying that. You know, for me, I was born into the church, and it is. Is part of my heritage. I have descended from pioneers, Mormon pioneers, and it is just woven into my DNA, like you said, Chelsea. And I live in the heart of Provo, Utah, just a mile away from byu. I pass it every day. So, yeah, for people to ask me to undo every neural pathway in my body, to pretend like it never happened, to never talk about it again, to act like it doesn't affect me, it affects me every day of my life. I still live in the ward boundaries that I moved into in high school. I see people who were. Are close to family to me every day. I wear a scarlet letter in front of many of those people. And so, yeah, I'm still in this conversation because this. This still is such a huge part of my life and my journey as a human being. So to deny me that, I think is very unfair. And I also still choose to participate in these conversations for the women I love who I see every day being harmed by the. The power imbalance of patriarchy.

Community, Hope, and What Women Deserve

Chelsea Homer [01:08:38] Yeah, I think that there is a lot of emphasis on people who choose to stay and participate in the church to make it safer and how powerful that is. And maybe slightly less emphasis on the people who are just right outside the door when you decide to leave, who are going to catch you when your whole world is falling through and your relationships are imploding and you're so disoriented you can't tell up from down. And I. And I'm sitting with two people here who have helped provide language and support and just have shown me, like, it's okay to pave your own path. And so I have been. I've benefited from that in my life. And I'm hoping to just pay it forward by still staying in close proximity to these spaces because I know what a gift it is to have language to the feelings in your body that you can't explain and you don't know what's going on. And. And so, unfortunately, you do kind of have to stay close in proximity sometimes. But that's why I'm choosing to stay in this conversation, because I just see the value it's been in my life, and hopefully it can add value, I can add value to other people's lives.

Mindy Gledhill [01:09:44] You are in such amazing ways. I just want to add to what you just said about you. Someone reminded me last week that we're all. I mean, we're primates. We're all like chimpanzees with socks on as humans.

Amy McPhee [01:09:56] Right.

Mindy Gledhill [01:09:57] And when, you know, a monkey gets ostracized from its tribe, it dies. Yeah. And, Chelsea, you are providing, like, what gets taken away from people when they leave the church, which is community. Because the church does such an amazing job of providing community and structure to people that when they leave and they, like, need to try and figure out how to rebuild that, that is one of the hardest parts of leaving. And you have provided, created such a beautiful space for women to still find community when they leave. And I just applaud you so much for that.

Chelsea Homer [01:10:33] That's so nice. Thank you, mindy. That's true.

Amy McPhee [01:10:36] 100%. I was going to say the same thing. It's so critical for people. And then to you, Mindy, too, for providing art, for putting your art out into the world and having people listen to a song and having that touch, a part of themselves that that research and scholarship can't reach. Or maybe they go to a party and that is helpful and they find that community. But like the art, the music, that gets where nothing else can touch. So truly inspired and grateful for your work and your work, both of you. So grateful. The work I do in the patriarchy space. And then I guess in Mormonism, though I have tried in my research to kind of take a. I guess a broader view, and that's just been my intellectual interest, too, is like, how does this work everywhere? We're not the only ones. And I've learned about myself through other people. But it's valuable to me, even though it's painful to wade into this, you know, the tradition, my faith tradition, too, because of what we've all just said, I guess because there's. There's so many people hurting. There's so many people hurting. And like has been said already, too, the patriarchy doesn't go away, even if you do leave the church. It's in our training, it's in our habits, it's in the way we think of ourselves. And think of other people. And I. I'm encouraged. I will say, like, why I stay in this conversation, too, is because I always say that we are not responsible for the structures we inherit. We aren't responsible for things that we didn't cause, but we are responsible for what we do about it. And we have such a short time on this earth to try to make a little bit of positive difference to get from here to here, even if that's all we can do in our lives. And then if we can bring others along, then that's how I find meaning in my daily life, when I wake up in the morning, and I'm so encouraged when I see things like, I met a man recently who is still active in the church. He's on the High Council. Well, was on the High Council, and he resigned from the High Council because there were no women in the room. And I was so touched by that. I was so profoundly moved by that, like, showing up and doing something about it. I talk about Francis Collins. He's this, like, he's the head of the NIH or was the National Institute for Health, and this renowned scientist. And he was getting invited to all these panels. And eventually he was like, I won't speak on any other panels if there are no women in the room. And I just want to, like, issue that call to people, like, look around. Look around and see, like, are we. Are there people of color in this room? Are there queer people in this room? If they're not, just say, I'm out. You've lost my contributions and my expertise until we actually do something about it. And so to hear that this can happen even in LDS spaces is amazing. And then I just. Yeah, I've just so benefited, like you said, from all the women that I know and all the women I've read, too, like, to realize for hundreds of years, these conversations have been happening. Women have been Been saying this for hundreds of years, and we don't know about it. I want a few more people to know about it. Like, I will be yelling from the rooftops until the day I die about this, because if one more person can be saved from sobbing in her minivan thinking she's the first one to feel this way, that she's all alone and that nobody understands and that she can't make a difference, then that's what I'm here for. And just grateful, again, grateful for both of you and for the episode that came before this and for everybody watching, too, and just want to encourage people to look at the structures and Take it seriously and then do something positive about it.

Chelsea Homer [01:14:40] Love all of that. Yeah. I guess we have one last question to finish us off. How's everyone doing in the comment section? Okay. It says, what do I want? Each person. Oh, so what do I want? I'll just keep this brief because I want a lot of things for women in the church, but mostly just I want women to be able to believe themselves, to believe their pain, to believe their joy, to believe those feelings in your body when you can't describe it and, you know, this isn't it. I want more because it's really scary to lean into those feelings, but there's a lot of reclamation and support to be had when you start listening to your body again. So that's one thing that I really want for Mormon women.

Mindy Gledhill [01:15:28] Love that. Yeah. When I ask myself if I'm out, you know, if I've deconstructed this and I. And I'm gone, what do I want for me? I want the church leadership to tell their people the truth about the church history. I want them to stop whitewashing women's history and just history in general from their lesson manuals, tell the stories of women. I just. I didn't even know probably, you know, but one or two names of some of the plural wives of the prophets until my 30s, and I started reading it. When I started deconstructing, I did what the church asked me to do. They said, you know, don't read anyone's blogs, don't listen to podcasts. Like, I did not. I only read pioneer journals of Mormon women. And that was really, like, the proof and the pudding for me. I never knew, like, the suffering of these women. I never knew their names. Say their names, put their names back in your manuals and teach about these women. Their stories are heartbreaking and. And not all of these women wanted to be where they were, but they were just trying to survive. So I want them to tell their people the truth and let people decide for themselves if they want to stay in the structure. I think. I mean, for me, if telling the truth makes the whole thing implode, so be it. Like, let it implode and recognize it for what it is. To me, it's a fascinating part of American history. Let's keep telling the story of it. Let's find our heritage together in it and come together as an organization about. Around that and tell the stories about the beautiful things, too. Those can stay. No one's trying to make those beautiful stories go away. But I just feel like so many Women's stories and names have never been uttered and are not there. So I want the leadership to tell their people the truth and to speak, to answer the cries of the people, to stop being silent. I think it'd be great. Like, again, if my requests imply that the whole thing. Well, the whole thing would just implode if we did that again, if it did. Use your billions of dollars to help make a dent in poverty, to empower women, to empower the marginalized. You have those resources. I think that's a much more honorable way to use them. So, yeah, that's what I want to see going forward, is to start telling the truth about history in the church, about history of women and people of color and queer people in the church. Stop hiding that.

Amy McPhee [01:18:23] Awesome. I would say what I would want to see is to divest people, to divest of patriarchy and in all the different realms of our lives, at school, in church, regardless of gender, regardless of activity, in any particular religion or no religion, it exists everywhere. And so to identify it and think, you know, if you are a man in a position of privilege, that can feel scary and realize that all women are wanting is equality to be recognized. We're all adults. We're just peers in the church. We call each other brother and sister. And that siblinghood, that is actually all that I want, is democracy, siblinghood. So when we notice ourselves in a situation, no matter what it is, whether, again, it's at work, maybe it's in the bedroom, maybe it's in a meeting, to say, like, oh, my gosh, I've absorbed this ideology into myself, into. It's present in this partnership, or it's present in this board meeting, or it's present in this relationship to say, like, we gotta stop for a second and deconstruct this, confront it and dissolve it. And everybody benefits from that. Everybody does.

Mindy Gledhill [01:19:38] Yeah. Love it.

Amy McPhee [01:19:41] All right, well, that wraps things up, I think. Thank you so much for listening.

Mindy Gledhill [01:19:47] Thank you, everyone, for tuning in. We're looking forward to hearing from people online. And, yeah, thank you to Mormon Stories for giving us this platform to preside and speak about our issues. And, yeah, it's been an honor to be here.

Chelsea Homer [01:20:03] Thank you. Thanks, John.

Amy McPhee [01:20:05] Thanks. Oh, okay. Again, I'm being told to plug my stuff. I'll take the opportunity seriously. Really do. Check out Breaking Down Patriarchy podcast and the YouTube videos.

Chelsea Homer [01:20:21] The YouTube. You have to check out her YouTube videos. They're so good. Thanks. They're so good.

Amy McPhee [01:20:26] Thank you. I'm pouring my entire life force into these YouTube videos. Go check them out right now and then share them broadly. And then. Yeah, and let us know what you think in the comments to this video, too. I've so enjoyed being here with you. Thank you again.

Mindy Gledhill [01:20:40] Chelsea, Plug your stuff.

Chelsea Homer [01:20:42] I guess you can if you want to come to events in Utah, and we do virtual events, too. You can find us at lostandfound Club on Instagram or Facebook. Yeah. And we'd love to have you or Faith Journey meetups if you want an online sounding board on Facebook. Yeah.

Mindy Gledhill [01:20:58] Yeah. I'm a. I'm a member of your movie club.

Chelsea Homer [01:21:01] Yes. Rubies every other month.

Closing Remarks and New Music Announcement

Mindy Gledhill [01:21:05] So I have my again, my name is Mindy Gledhill. I have a new album coming out this year that that's all about inner child work. The first single comes out April 23rd, and every six weeks I'll be releasing a single until the fall when the full album comes out. But it's called the Phone Booth Sessions and it really has stemmed from me going to therapy and doing inner child work to try to heal from a lot of these areas where I feel like my inner child has been wounded. So. So, yeah, look for those songs that are about. It's all been recorded inside a phone booth. So these are all kind of phone calls to my inner child trying to do some healing there.

Amy McPhee [01:21:50] Love it.

Mindy Gledhill [01:21:52] Yeah, you can find me on Instagram indygledhill. I'm on TikTok as well. So we'll see you all on the World Wide Web

Chelsea Homer [01:22:02] by.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.